The UpWords Podcast

What does faithfulness look like in a corporate boardroom? Host Joy Fea talks with guest Kristine Braden, whose 26-year career at Citi took her across Latin America, Asia, and Europe, culminating in her leading the bank's business across Europe. Kristine tells the story of the walk to work that turned a committed skeptic into a follower of Jesus, and of the "tent-making" life she and her husband built as he served in burn clinics, slum clinics, orphanages, and refugee ministries wherever her career took them.

Kristine shares how she helped the Philippines restructure its debt, how Citi navigated Europe's energy crisis after Russia invaded Ukraine, and why she once accepted a demotion because she sensed God calling her to a new role. She offers practical wisdom on ambition and calling, asking hard questions in high-stakes rooms, building trust as the only woman at the table, reading the news well, and explaining why there is no line between sacred and secular work.

IN THIS EPISODE

•   Why living in a country, not just visiting it, changed how Kristine understood its economy

•   Combining a banking career with her husband's medical missions in four countries

•   Saving the Philippines an estimated $150 million in future debt payments

•   A church member's warning that "you can't be a banker and be a Christian"

•   Letting integrity speak first, and the boss who almost didn't hire her

•   Active listening, getting quiet voices to speak, and learning your own voice in a room

•   Building trust when you are foreign, female, and young in the room

•   Ambition versus calling, and the demotion that turned out to be the right move

•   The "taxi test" for separating headlines from facts on the ground

•   Starting high-stakes decisions with your constraints

•   Advice for young women: start with what you know, then keep adding skills

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Kristine Braden spent 26 years at Citi, beginning in an international management program with postings in the Dominican Republic, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Cairo. Her roles included Country Officer and Corporate & Investment Banking Head for Switzerland, Monaco, and Liechtenstein; chief of staff to then-Citi CEO Mike Corbat; and Europe Cluster Head and CEO of Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG in Frankfurt. She now serves on corporate boards. She holds a B.A. in political science from the University of California, Berkeley.

RESCOURSES MENTIONED

•   How Remarkable Women Lead: The Breakthrough Model for Work and Life by Joanna Barsh and Susie Cranston (Crown Business, 2009)

•   5 Voices, the team-communication framework from GiANT Worldwide

•   Eric Liddell, the Olympic runner portrayed in Chariots of Fire

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Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

For our 200th episode, host Jean Geran welcomes Anglican priest and award-winning author Tish Harrison Warren for a conversation about the spiritual practices that sustain faith over a lifetime.

Drawing on her new book, What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience, Tish shares how she fell in love with liturgy almost by accident, why she resists dividing life into "spiritual" and "non-spiritual" practices, and what the strange, wholehearted desert fathers and mothers can teach a busy, distracted church. She tells the story behind the opening line of Prayer in the Night, when praying Compline carried her and her husband through a medical emergency, and explains why practices built in ordinary seasons are still there for us in crisis.

Jean and Tish also talk about silence as the orienting goal of a day, the role of elders and mentors in a long life of faith, the Madison editor who first told Tish she had a voice, and how patience means learning to meet God in the life we actually have rather than the one we imagine.

IN THIS EPISODE

• How Tish found her way into Anglicanism and the liturgy during a season of transition
• Liturgy vs. spiritual practices, and why napping can be a spiritual practice
• A sacramental view of reality: prayer as stepping into a river that is already flowing
• Who the desert fathers and mothers were, and why the church could stand to be a little weirder
• Silence and solitude as an orienting goal, not an add-on
• Compline, suffering, and practices that hold when we have no words of our own
• Mentorship, elders, and naming the gifts we see in others
• Constraint, patience, and the three responses to suffering: flame out, numb out, or go deep

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

• What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience by Tish Harrison Warren (Convergent, 2026)
• Liturgy of the Ordinary: Sacred Practices in Everyday Life by Tish Harrison Warren
• Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work or Watch or Weep by Tish Harrison Warren
• James K. A. Smith, Dorothy Bass, Fleming Rutledge, C. S. Lewis, Kaitlyn Schiess
• The desert fathers and mothers, St. Benedict, and the office of Compline
• The Well (InterVarsity) and editor Marcia Bosscher

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Tish Harrison Warren is a writer and a priest in the Anglican Church in North America. Her books include Liturgy of the Ordinary (Christianity Today's 2018 Book of the Year) and Prayer in the Night (Christianity Today's 2022 Book of the Year and the 2022 ECPA Christian Book of the Year). She formerly wrote a weekly newsletter for The New York Times, is a senior fellow with the Trinity Forum, and serves as C. S. Lewis Theological Writer-in-Residence at Baylor University's Truett Seminary. She lives in Austin, Texas, with her husband and three children. Learn more at tishharrisonwarren.com. 

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Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

When most people hear “apologetics,” they think of courtroom-style arguments for the resurrection or bestsellers like The Case for Christ. But those are only a recent chapter in a much longer story. In this episode, host Dan Hummel talks with guest  Daniel K. Williams about his new book, The Search for a Rational Faith: Reason and Belief in the History of American Christianity (Oxford University Press, 2026).

Together they trace four centuries of Christian efforts to defend the faith: the English Arminians and William Paley’s natural theology, the “Christian evidences” courses once taught at nearly every American college, the German research university model that displaced them, the experiential apologetics of liberal Protestantism, and the cultural apologetics of C.S. Lewis, Tim Keller, and their heirs. Williams also reflects on how his own upbringing shaped the book, why apologetics has mostly served believers rather than skeptics, and what today’s intra-Christian debates on YouTube have in common with seventeenth-century arguments.

IN THIS EPISODE

• The five main types of apologetics: evidentialist, classical, presuppositional, worldview, and cultural
• Why nineteenth-century Christians thought the evidence for Christianity was as certain as Newtonian science
• How the German university model, not Darwin alone, ended apologetics in the American curriculum
• Why today’s apologists must answer critiques of Christianity’s historical record
• How Catholic and Protestant apologetics have converged in recent decades

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Daniel K. Williams is a senior fellow at the Ashbrook Center at Ashland University, where he teaches American history. He is the author of several books on American religion and politics, including God’s Own Party: The Making of the Christian Right and The Politics of the Cross: A Christian Alternative to Partisanship. His newest book, The Search for a Rational Faith: Reason and Belief in the History of American Christianity, was published by Oxford University Press in 2026.

NAMES AND WORKS MENTIONED

• Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict

• Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ

• C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity and The Chronicles of Narnia

• Francis Schaeffer and Cornelius Van Til

• N.T. Wright, Gary Habermas, and Michael Licona on the resurrection

• Tim Keller and Rebecca McLaughlin (cultural apologetics)

• Thomas Aquinas, R.C. Sproul, and William Lane Craig (classical apologetics)

• William Paley (natural theology and Christian evidences)

• Mark Hopkins (Williams College) and George Frederick Wright (Oberlin College)

• Thomas Reid, Immanuel Kant, and David Strauss

• Mark Noll on the Bible as "America’s book"

• Tom Holland and Christopher Hitchens on Christianity’s legacy

• G.K. Chesterton, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Peter Kreeft

• Gavin Ortlund, Trent Horn, and Bishop Robert Barron (online apologetics)

• John Owen and the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement

🔗 LINKS

• The Search for a Rational Faith: Reason and Belief in the History of American Christianity (Oxford University Press, 2026) — https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-search-for-a-rational-faith-9780197748039?cc=us&lang=en&

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Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

As the seasons change, so do our reading lists. Byron Borger, co-owner of Hearts & Minds Bookstore in Dallastown, Pennsylvania, returns to The UpWords Podcast with his fall roundup of the books most worth your time. Host Susan Smetzer-Anderson and Byron begin by remembering Annie Dillard and Wendell Berry, two literary lights whose work shaped generations of Christian readers, before turning to a remarkable season of new releases.

Byron makes the case for reading the ancients alongside the moderns, previews John Fea’s new look at whether America was founded as a Christian nation, and compares two of the fall’s most debated books: Kristin Kobes Du Mez’s Live Laugh Love and Bonnie Kristian’s In Defense of Evangelicalism. The conversation then moves into spiritual formation, with new books on God’s love, the humanity of Jesus, the medieval mystics, silence, and character, and closes with titles on cultural myths, womanhood in art, a theology of place, and the role of faith in a pluralistic democracy.

IN THIS EPISODE

• Remembering Annie Dillard and Wendell Berry
• Why Christians should read ancient literature, and how to read it with discernment
• Two contrasting accounts of evangelical women and evangelical culture
• New books on spiritual formation, from the Trinity to the mystics to the discipline of silence
• Books on cultural narratives, visual culture, sacred place, and religion in public life
• A teaser for anyone who wants to read more but struggles to

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Byron Borger and his wife, Beth, opened Hearts & Minds Bookstore in Dallastown, Pennsylvania, in 1982. Byron writes BookNotes, the store’s long-running review newsletter, and is a longtime conference bookseller and speaker on relating Christian faith to every area of life.

📙 BOOKS FEATURED IN THIS EPISODE

• Crossing the Wine-Dark Sea by Emily Wilson
• Christians Reading Classics by Nadya Williams
• From Achilles to Christ by Louis Markos
• Breaking Bread with the Dead by Alan Jacobs
• In God We Trust by John Fea
• Live Laugh Love by Kristin Kobes Du Mez
• In Defense of Evangelicalism by Bonnie Kristian
• The Wisdom of Jesus by N. T. Wright
• Fully Beloved by Timothy Jones
• Vulnerable God by Kenneth Tanner
• Make Your Home in This Luminous Dark by James K. A. Smith
• The Way of the Spirit by Jeremy Sims
• Into the Quiet by John Mark Comer
• Who You’re Becoming by Chuck DeGroat
• The Stories We Live By by Timothy Keller and Michael Keller
• Look Like a Lady by Elissa Yukiko Weichbrodt
• Every Somewhere Sacred by Ben Norquist and Brian Miller
• Can Religion Save Democracy? by Matthew Kaemingk and Shadi Hamid

🔗 LINKS

Hearts & Minds Bookstore: heartsandmindsbooks.com

Byron’s BookNotes newsletter: heartsandmindsbooks.com/booknotes

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Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

What does it mean to follow Jesus not only in who you are, but in how you lead, serve, and work? On this episode of The UpWords Podcast, host Joy Fea sits down with guest Joanna Meyer, founder and executive director of Women, Work, & Calling at the Denver Institute for Faith & Work, to explore vocational discipleship: forming people for a whole-life "yes" to God that reaches into their daily work.

Joanna traces her path from aspiring high school social studies teacher to twelve years of campus ministry, a season in global telecom, and more than a decade at the Denver Institute, showing how calling is often formed over time rather than discovered in a single moment. Together, Joy and Joanna walk through core ideas from Joanna's framework for vocational discipleship: influence that flows from hearts renewed by Christ; our identity as image-bearers and stewards; participation in God's renewal of all things; and women as agents of flourishing. Along the way, they talk about productivity and overwork, a redemptive understanding of power, generous leadership, and the mentors who help us see what God is inviting us into.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN 

• Why vocation is "a whole-life response to God's voice," not just a category of religious work
• How Christ's renewal of "all things" gives new meaning to daily work, from private equity to HOA boards
• Setting a generous table for women across theological convictions and life stages
• Joanna's candid reflections on overwork and being "addicted to mission"
• A business leader who built pre-apprenticeship on-ramps for people facing barriers to employment
• What a redemptive, servant-shaped understanding of power looks like across a workweek
• Breath prayer and daily silence as portable practices for busy workers
• Why God's hand is often clearer in the rearview mirror than in the road ahead

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Joanna Meyer is the founder and executive director of Women, Work, & Calling, a national initiative of the Denver Institute for Faith & Work that equips Christian women to have a godly influence in public life. She also hosts the Institute's Faith & Work Podcast. Before joining the Institute, she worked in global telecom, nonprofit consulting, and campus ministry with Cru. She holds an MA in Social Entrepreneurship from Bakke Graduate University and graduated magna cum laude from the University of Colorado Boulder. She is the author of Women, Work, & Calling: Step into Your Place in God's World (InterVarsity Press, 2023).

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Women, Work, & Calling: Step into Your Place in God's World by Joanna Meyer (InterVarsity Press)

• Strong and Weak by Andy Crouch

• Culture Making by Andy Crouch

• The Work of Leaders (Jossey-Bass)

• The MBA Oath

• Denver Institute for Faith & Work: denverinstitute.org

• Women, Work, & Calling: womenworkandcalling.com

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CONNECT WITH US
Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

What does real spiritual transformation actually look like — a powerful moment at a retreat or altar call, or something much slower, deeper, and more relational? In this episode, host Dan Johnson sits down with first-time author Jonathan R. Bailey to talk about his new book, Dwelling in Christ: Discover the Threefold Path of Spiritual Transformation (IVP, 2026). Drawing on years of mentorship from Richard Foster and the legacy of Dallas Willard, Jonathan unpacks the ancient threefold path of Christian spiritual formation — purgation, illumination, and union — and makes the case that transformation can’t be rushed. Dan and Jonathan dig into the difference between transactional and transformational faith, why purgation is pruning rather than punishment, how to build a flexible “rule of life,” and what it means to trade trying for training. Jonathan also shares a personal story of a fleeting taste of union he experienced in a Toys “R” Us parking lot, and offers three simple practices — prayer, fasting, and almsgiving — for anyone who wants to begin the journey toward becoming more like Christ.

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Jonathan R. Bailey is the cofounder of Dwell, an audio Bible app helping people rediscover the ancient practice of listening to Scripture. He writes Three Weekly Lights, a newsletter on spiritual transformation, and serves on the ministry team at Renovaré. He lives in Frisco, Texas, with his wife, Kori, and their three children. Dwelling in Christ is his first book, with a foreword by Richard J. Foster.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN

• The real difference between a transactional and a transformational approach to faith — and why relationship, not quick fixes, is what actually drives change.
• How to tell God’s pruning apart from self-imposed shame or punishment during hard seasons.
• Why mountaintop spiritual experiences are meant to refresh the journey, not replace the ordinary, sustained faithfulness that follows.
• How to build a “rule of life” that’s flexible rather than rigid — and why an overly aspirational one can do more harm than good.
• The practical difference between “trying” to produce spiritual fruit and “training” toward it.
• What union with God actually looks like in daily life: becoming other-centered instead of self-centered.
• Three simple, relational practices from the Sermon on the Mount — prayer, fasting, and almsgiving — and how each corresponds to a different relationship: with God, with self, and with others.

BOOKS AND LINKS

▶ Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/dwelling-in-christ

▶ More about Jonathan: https://www.ivpress.com/jonathan-bailey 

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Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

Many of us are busy serving, producing, and performing — while our own relationship with God quietly grows distant. In this episode, host Tressa Spingler sits down with author and pastor Jacob Coyne to talk about his new book, The Secret Life of Christians: How to Live Authentically, Especially When No One Is Watching (Tyndale House, 2026).

Jacob shares the story behind his move from a rapidly growing online ministry on the West Coast to a slower, more hidden life in Johnson City, Tennessee — a decision shaped by a mentor’s warning that ministry built at breakneck speed can cost a family everything. From there, the conversation turns to the ancient spiritual disciplines — prayer, fasting, silence, Sabbath — that have shaped Christians for centuries; to a pilgrimage to Jerusalem that reconnected Jacob to the wider Christian tradition; and to the moment his wife’s honest words pushed him to reset his relationship with his phone.

Along the way, Jacob and Tressa talk about what it means to be loved by God before we do anything to earn it — and why the secret place isn’t about hiding. It’s about being known.

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Jacob Coyne is an author, preacher, and founder of Stay Here, a nonprofit suicide-prevention and mental health movement, and the Bible Collective, a network and daily devotional platform serving thousands of readers. His new book is The Secret Life of Christians: How to Live Authentically, Especially When No One Is Watching. Jacob lives in Johnson City, Tennessee, with his wife, Mariah, and their five children.

🔗 LINKS

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Christians-Authentically-Especially/dp/B0FVTY6NW6 

https://www.jacob-coyne.com/

https://www.stayhere.live/

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CONNECT WITH US
Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

What does it look like to lead the way Jesus did — through the cross, not around it? Host Joy Fea welcomes Rev. Dr. Nicole Massie Martin, President and CEO of Christianity Today, to talk about her book Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender. Together, they explore what people really need from a leader, why perfectionism isn't the same as excellence, how power works for women with and without a title, and why loyalty can quietly become an idol. Nicole also shares what “cruciform leadership” looks like on an ordinary Tuesday, and what she'd tell her twentysomething self about ambition, insecurity, and calling.

• Why transparency — not just confidence — is what makes a leader trustworthy, and how naming the “turbulence” ahead of time actually builds a team's confidence rather than undermining it.
• What Nicole's book title actually means: leadership “suffering” isn't suffering for its own sake — it's dying to ego, control, and ambition so that something greater can be resurrected through you.
• How to recognize when perfectionism, not excellence, is driving your leadership (and your parenting) — and why anything involving other people can never be perfect.
• The difference between operating with excellence and operating to prove your worth — and why God's approval, not your output, is the more stable foundation.
• A framework for understanding power beyond your job title: legitimate, expert, informational, referential, and reward power, and how to identify and use whatever power you actually have.
• How to tell the difference between healthy, Christ-centered loyalty and loyalty that has quietly become an idol — and why toxic leaders are usually surrounded by loyal followers who are afraid to speak up.
• What women uniquely bring to leadership when they're free to lead from who God made them to be, rather than compensating for who they're told they aren't.
• What “cruciform leadership” looks like in practice — a daily, repeated act of surrendering your schedule, your meetings, and your outcomes to God rather than white-knuckling your way through them.
• How Nicole leads a 70-year-old media ministry without becoming captive to its legacy — maintaining Christianity Today's founding mission while letting its expression evolve.
• Nicole's advice to young leaders on discerning calling: focus on your strengths rather than fixing your weaknesses, and hold your context loosely — your calling is bigger than any one role.

ABOUT OUR GUEST 

Reverend Doctor Nicole Massie Martin was born and educated in Baltimore, Maryland. She graduated magna cum laude from Vanderbilt University with a triple major in Human and Organizational Development, Educational Studies, and French. Dr. Martin received her Master of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary and earned a Doctor of Ministry from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary.

Dr. Martin is the founder and Executive Director of Soulfire International Ministries, which accelerates thriving for pastors, churches, and younger leaders. She has decades of executive leadership experience in the church and Christian non-profits and is currently serving as the President and Chief Executive Officer of Christianity Today. She is also active in her local congregation, Kingdom Fellowship AME Church, in Maryland.

Prior to her role at Christianity Today, Dr. Martin has served in a variety of leadership and executive capacities, including as the Senior Vice President of Ministry Impact at the American Bible Society, as Executive Minister at The Park Church, and Assistant Professor of Ministry and Leadership Development at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Charlotte, NC.

Dr. Martin is a gifted writer and author of numerous articles and three books: Made to Lead: Empowering Women for Ministry, Leaning In, Letting Go: A Lenten Devotional, and Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender.  She serves on the executive council of the National Association of Evangelicals, the Board of Trustees at Fuller Theological Seminary, and on the National Advisory Council for the Salvation Army. She is a founding board member of the Center for Christianity and Public Life and has been inducted into the esteemed Board of Preachers at Morehouse College.

Dr. Martin is married to her best friend, Dr. Mark Martin, and they have two amazing daughters, Addison and Josephine.

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Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

This summer, the UpWords Podcast is featuring leaders making a tangible difference in the Madison community. Host Rebecca Cooks sits down with Rev. Dr. Alexander Gee — pastor, author, and founder and CEO of the Center for Black Excellence and Culture — for a wide-ranging, honest conversation recorded not long after the Center's grand opening drew more than 1,500 people through its doors.

They talk about what the Center actually is — part museum, part business incubator, part performing arts venue, part neuroscience research lab — and how it grew out of listening sessions with more than 700 Black Madisonians. From there, the conversation turns to belonging: why Rev. Dr. Gee insists belonging is not the same as proximity, and why he believes American integration, as it actually unfolded, cost Black communities more than it gave — including the story of the 36,000 Black teachers who lost their jobs when schools integrated. They also discuss the Harlem Renaissance and W.E.B. Du Bois, what has kept Rev. Dr. Gee rooted in Madison across four decades, his advice for minorities discerning whether to stay in the city and for white residents who want to be genuine allies, and why he believes the Black church — not the American government — has shaped the moral conscience of the nation. The conversation closes with reflections on the art and music that heal.

GUEST BIO
Rev. Dr. Alexander Gee is the Founder and CEO of the Center for Black Excellence and Culture in Madison, Wisconsin, and the founding lead pastor of Fountain of Life Covenant Church. He also founded the Nehemiah Center for Urban Leadership Development and its "Justified Anger" initiative, and he serves as an adjunct professor at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. Over more than 40 years of ministry and community leadership, he has raised more than $70 million for Madison-area organizations addressing racial disparities, including the $33 million Center for Black Excellence and Culture, which opened debt-free with a grand-opening celebration on May 6, 2026, drawing over 1,500 visitors.

LINKS

• https://www.theblackcenter.org/
• https://africanamericanstudies.wisc.edu/
• https://africanamericanstudies.wisc.edu/2024/05/13/reverend-dr-alex-gee-receives-honorary-doctorate/
• https://nehemiah.org/
• https://nehemiah.org/jacourses/

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CONNECT WITH US
Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

How do you read the Bible? Most of us assume we already know: we read to learn what happened, to understand what a passage means, or to find a principle to apply. In this episode, host Dan Hummel is joined by guest Jeff Dryden, professor of biblical studies and department chair at Covenant College, to ask whether Scripture is inviting us to something deeper.

Dryden is the author of A Hermeneutic of Wisdom: Recovering the Formative Agency of Scripture (Baker Academic), which argues that the whole Bible — not just its "wisdom" books — is written to shape our deepest loves and convictions, not merely to hand us information or timeless principles. Dan and Jeff talk through why biblical scholars are trained to tell us what a text meant rather than what it means, how that division of labor between biblical studies and theology leaves a formation-shaped gap, and what philosophers like Hans-Georg Gadamer and Michael Polanyi have to offer pastors and everyday readers trying to close it.

Along the way: why Paul is a far less systematic thinker than popular imagination suggests, what Mark's Gospel is doing to our idols of Jesus, and why "the Bible wasn't written to us, but it was written for us" is true — and doesn't go far enough.

In this episode:

• Why biblical scholars are trained to ask what a text meant, not what it means — and what gets lost in that division of labor 
• Why the Bible is always "applied theology" — never abstract, formal theology — and what that means for how a sermon should be built
• Reading Mark's Gospel as an exercise in dismantling our idols of who Jesus is
• Hans-Georg Gadamer's idea of Wirkungsgeschichte ("history of effects") and why we can never step outside the tradition we read from
• Augustine's test for biblical understanding: if you haven't grown in love of God and neighbor, you haven't understood a word
• Why the historical-critical and grammatical-historical methods — liberal and conservative alike — share the same modern DNA
• What's next for Dryden: a forthcoming book on evangelical moralism and legalism as counterfeit versions of the gospel

About the guest:
Jeff Dryden (PhD, Cambridge University) is professor of biblical studies and chair of the department at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia, where he has taught for nearly two decades. He is the author of Theology and Ethics in 1 Peter and A Hermeneutic of Wisdom: Recovering the Formative Agency of Scripture (Baker Academic).

Mentioned in this episode:

• Jeff Dryden, A Hermeneutic of Wisdom: Recovering the Formative Agency of Scripture
• BibleProject and Tim Mackie
• John Walton, Old Testament scholar, Wheaton College Graduate School
• Scot McKnight and Hans Boersma, Five Things Biblical Scholars Wish Theologians Knew / Five Things Theologians Wish Biblical Scholars Knew
• Hans-Georg Gadamer, philosopher (Wirkungsgeschichte, hermeneutics)
• Anthony Thiselton, The Two Horizons / New Horizons in Hermeneutics
• Sandra Schneiders and Michael Polanyi ("personal knowledge")
• Augustine, On Christian Doctrine (De Doctrina Christiana)
• Johann Philipp Gabler and Wilhelm Dilthey, on the historical roots of modern biblical studies

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CONNECT WITH US
Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour