Travis Makes Money

By Travis ChappellBusiness Entrepreneurship Education Self-Improvement Investing Careers

Travis Makes Money episodes

July 13CO-HOST | Make Money by Choosing Where to Live Based on Cost, Lifestyle, and Priorities
In this episode, Travis Chappell and producer Eric kick things off by recapping Travis's Alaska cruise before diving into a fascinating discussion about the cost of living across America. Using recent data on what it takes to live comfortably in every state, they explore the trade-offs between affordability, lifestyle, location, and quality of life—while sharing plenty of personal stories and friendly banter along the way.
On this episode we talk about:
Travis's Alaska cruise experience and why cruising is a different kind of vacation

The most and least expensive states to live in based on comfortable living income

How cost of living varies dramatically depending on location within a state

The trade-offs between affordability, access to amenities, and quality of life

Whether it's better to live on a lake, by the beach, or in a lower-cost state
Top 3 Takeaways
A lower cost of living doesn't automatically mean a better lifestyle. Affordability matters, but so do factors like access to airports, activities, climate, and the community you want to be part of.

Where you live should align with your priorities. Whether it's maximizing savings, enjoying outdoor activities, or being close to family, the "best" place to live is highly personal.

Don't wait to enjoy life. Seeing Travis's 95-year-old grandfather and 88-year-old grandmother traveling with family is a reminder that creating meaningful experiences matters at every stage of life.
Notable Quotes
"If you've got the money, just go live where you want to live."

"What are you gonna do? Just sit there and rot until your time is gone?"

"Money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you've got money in the bank."
Connect with Travis Chappell:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travischappell/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/travischappell/

Other: https://travischappell.com
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 25% OFF select mattresses (through July 26, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
27 min
July 13INTERVIEW | Make Money by Solving Information Problems with Kira Shishkin
Kira Shishkin is the CEO of informed.now, the #1 news-by-SMS service in America, and a four-time entrepreneur with a background spanning investment banking, venture capital, private equity, and corporate strategy. A Ukrainian-Israeli immigrant and Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, Kira has built businesses across education, cryptocurrency infrastructure, and fintech before launching informed.now with a mission to help people stay informed without the noise, bias, or endless news cycle.
On this episode we talk about:
How Kira built his first business by writing an American history textbook while still in high school

Lessons from mining Ethereum in its early days and building wealth through emerging technology

What it was like incubating a billion-dollar business inside Intuit

Why information organization is one of the most valuable business opportunities

How informed.now delivers unbiased news through a simple text message—and why its reader-supported model matters
Top 3 Takeaways
Most business opportunities are information problems. Instead of creating entirely new information, entrepreneurs can create enormous value by organizing existing information in a more useful way.

Being early often feels like being late. Kira's experience building Ethereum infrastructure in 2016 taught him that today's AI revolution presents similar opportunities for builders willing to start now.

Align your business model with your mission. By relying solely on reader support instead of advertising, informed.now stays accountable to its users rather than outside sponsors or advertisers.
Notable Quotes
"Most problems are information organization problems."

"Being early always feels like being late."

"We will only accept the reader as our customer."
Connect with Kira Shishkin:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirashishkin/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kira.shishkin/

Other: https://informed.now
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 25% OFF select mattresses (through July 26, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
34 min
July 13REPOST SOLO | Make Money by Adopting Wealthy Habits (Not Poor Ones)
In this solo episode, Travis Chappell breaks down eye-opening stats from a five-year study on the daily habits that separate the wealthy from the poor. From credit score savvy to flossing and networking, he shares personal stories—like the time his truck's wheel fell off in Las Vegas—and actionable mindset shifts to level up your financial game.
On this episode we talk about:
The massive gap in credit score awareness (72% wealthy vs. 5% poor) and Travis's wild credit drop after maxing a business card

Why the poor play the lottery 77% vs. just 6% of the wealthy—and how it traps you in a scarcity mindset

Goal focus, flossing, fitness, and screen time stats that reveal how self-discipline builds wealth

Networking (79% wealthy spend 5+ hours/month), the 80/20 rule, and rejecting "random luck" as your wealth plan

The ultimate divider: 79% of wealthy take full responsibility for their finances vs. 18% of the poor
Top 3 Takeaways
1. Know your credit score and how utilization/inquiries work—it unlocks better rates and leverage, even if Dave Ramsey disagrees.
2. Focus on one big goal, cut recreational screen time under 1 hour/day, and network relentlessly—small habits compound into wealth.
3. Own your financial situation 100%, regardless of fault; responsibility is where wealth creation truly begins.
Notable Quotes
"72% of the wealthy know their credit score versus 5% of the poor."

"Your ability to create wealth for yourself will depend on your ability to take full responsibility for your situation."

"The more shots on goal you take, the more likely it is that you're going to hit one in."
Connect with Travis Chappell:
LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/travischappell⁠

Twitter/X: ⁠https://twitter.com/traviscchappell⁠

Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/travischappell⁠

Other: ⁠https://www.travischappell.com
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 25% OFF select mattresses (through July 26, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
21 min
July 12CO-HOST | Make Money by Building a Skill That Pays You Forever
This episode features Travis Chappell and producer Eric discussing an insightful clip from actor Jason Bateman about his complicated relationship with money growing up as a child actor. Using Bateman's story as a jumping-off point, they explore how financial confidence is built through developing valuable skills, why your relationship with money matters more than most people realize, and how investing in yourself creates opportunities that compound for life.
On this episode we talk about:
Jason Bateman's perspective on earning money and developing financial confidence as a child actor

Why your relationship with money shapes your financial future

How mastering a high-income skill creates long-term security and freedom

The importance of investing in yourself before investing in assets

The opportunities and risks of children growing up in the age of social media and AI
Top 3 Takeaways
Financial confidence doesn't come from having money—it comes from knowing you can create more through valuable skills.

Treat money like a relationship instead of an object by giving it purpose, direction, and opportunities to grow.

Investing in high-income skills like sales, marketing, or other in-demand abilities creates leverage that lasts a lifetime.
Notable Quotes
"If more people thought about money as a relationship, they would probably have more of it."

"Before your money can make you money, your time has to make you money."

"Learn a real skill that nobody can take away from you."
Connect with Travis Chappell:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travischappell

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/travischappell

Website: https://travischappell.com
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 30% OFF select mattresses (through July 12, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
25 min
July 12INTERVIEW | Make Money with Better Relationships, Richer Life Experiences, and World-Class Communication
What do relationship-building, intentional wealth, and world-class storytelling have in common? In this special compilation episode, Travis highlights three unforgettable conversations from the first half of 2026 featuring communication expert Jon Levy, Die With Zero author Bill Perkins, and legendary entrepreneur, author, and Canva Chief Evangelist Guy Kawasaki. Together, they share timeless lessons on building meaningful relationships, using money as a tool for fulfillment, and communicating ideas that inspire action.
On this episode we talk about:
Why dormant relationships often create the biggest career opportunities

How to connect with influential people without wasting their time

The philosophy behind Die With Zero and using wealth to maximize life experiences

Why money should serve your values—not become the goal itself

Guy Kawasaki's famous 10-slide pitch deck, podcasting, and lessons from decades in Silicon Valley
Top 3 Takeaways
The strongest opportunities often come from dormant relationships—reconnecting with people from your past can open more doors than relying solely on your closest network.

Building wealth is only half the equation. The ultimate goal is creating a fulfilling life by intentionally spending your time, money, and energy during the seasons of life when they'll have the greatest impact.

Great communication is about respecting people's time. Whether you're networking, pitching investors, or asking for advice, preparation and clarity dramatically increase your chances of success.
Notable Quotes
"Don't offer to buy somebody a cup of coffee if they could afford to buy the coffee shop."

"The money is just a tool for the life that you want."

"You can always hit the bullseye if you paint the target after you see where the arrow is stuck."
Connect with Jon Levy:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlevytlb
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jonlevytlb/
• Other: https://www.jonlevy.com/
Connect with Bill Perkins:
• Twitter/X: https://x.com/bp22
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/billperkins
• Other: Die With Zero
Connect with Guy Kawasaki:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guykawasaki
• Website: https://guykawasaki.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/guykawasaki/
• Other: Podcast – Remarkable People | Book – Everybody Has Something to Hide
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 30% OFF select mattresses (through July 12, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
30 min
July 12REPOST SOLO | Make Money by Letting Go of Perfection
Travis Chappell solo-hosts this episode of Travis Makes Money, sharing hard-won life lessons from his own journey as a creator, entrepreneur, and podcast coach. He breaks down mindset traps that keep people stuck—like perfectionism, negativity bias, and emotional reactivity—and offers practical tools for building resilience, happiness, and momentum in both life and business. Through stories, analogies, and real-life examples (including a tense pickup basketball game), Travis gives listeners concrete ways to rewire their thinking for long-term success and peace of mind.
On this episode we talk about:
Why “done is better than perfect” and how perfectionism turns into procrastination

The importance of shipping imperfect work to get real-world feedback

How to hardwire happiness by revisiting positive moments and strengthening neural pathways

Using gratitude and visualization to combat negativity bias and anxiety

Stoic principles: external events vs. your perception and reaction

Practical strategies to pause before reacting and respond in ways that serve your goals
Top 3 Takeaways
Done beats perfect every time. Waiting for perfection keeps you from ever launching the book, product, or podcast that will actually teach you what needs to improve.

You can train your brain toward happiness. By intensifying and revisiting moments of joy and gratitude, you widen the mental “paths” that make it easier to access positive emotional states.

Events aren’t the problem—your reaction is. Your long-term happiness is tied less to what happens and more to the way you choose to interpret and respond, especially in emotionally charged moments.
Notable Quotes
“Done is better than perfect, because perfectionism is just procrastination in disguise.”

“The ability to be happy or grateful in the absence of reasons to be is a superpower.”

“External events are not the problem. It’s your perception of them that’s the problem.”
Connect with Travis Chappell:
LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/travischappell⁠

Twitter/X: ⁠https://twitter.com/traviscchappell⁠

Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/travischappell⁠

Other: ⁠https://travischappell.com
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 30% OFF select mattresses (through July 12, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
24 min
July 11CO-HOST | Make Money by Building Trust Through Honest Leadership
This episode is a conversation with Travis Chappell and producer Eric as they dive into an unexpected business lesson sparked by fast food. What starts as a discussion about Burger King's CEO admitting the company's chicken nuggets need improvement turns into a broader conversation about transparency, leadership, authenticity in marketing, and how business owners should communicate wins and failures. Along the way, they also touch on product quality, customer trust, and why desperation is never a winning sales strategy.
On this episode we talk about:
Why Burger King's CEO publicly admitted the company's chicken nuggets need improvement

How transparency can strengthen customer trust when it's paired with action

The difference between authentic marketing and sympathy marketing

Lessons entrepreneurs can learn from MrBeast's failed Beast Burger and successful Feastables launch

Why confidence—not desperation—is essential in sales and business
Top 3 Takeaways
Honest leadership builds credibility when you acknowledge weaknesses while showing a clear commitment to improving them.

Transparency is valuable in business, but it should be intentional—not your entire marketing strategy.

Customers respond to confidence and authenticity far more than guilt or desperation when making buying decisions.
Notable Quotes
"Our chicken nuggets need to be better—and they're going to be better."

"People understand that things don't always go well."

"That desperation energy is not what seals the deal."
Connect with Travis Chappell:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/travischappell

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travischappell

Website: https://travischappell.com
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 30% OFF select mattresses (through July 12, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
23 min
July 11INTERVIEW | Make Money by Building Billion-Dollar Brands from Scratch
Building an iconic brand takes more than a great idea—it takes vision, resilience, and years of relentless execution. In this compilation episode, Travis highlights three unforgettable conversations with entrepreneurs who built category-defining businesses from the ground up. Former Starbucks executive Mesh Gelman shares the lessons he learned from Howard Schultz before creating Cumulus, an innovative at-home nitro cold brew system. Shawn Nelson, founder of LoveSac, reflects on transforming a college side hustle into a billion-dollar furniture brand. And David Royce, founder of Aptive Environmental, explains how mastering systems, sales, and culture allowed him to build and repeatedly scale pest control companies worth hundreds of millions.
On this episode we talk about:
The leadership lessons Howard Schultz taught about earning customers every day

How Cumulus spent more than four years in research and development before launching

Shawn Nelson's journey from sewing bean bags in his college dorm to building LoveSac into a billion-dollar brand

Why long-term commitment is one of the greatest competitive advantages in entrepreneurship

How David Royce repeatedly built, sold, and rebuilt pest control companies by keeping the growth engine intact
Top 3 Takeaways
Great brands are built by obsessing over customers, staying humble, and earning trust every single day.

Long-term success requires patience—whether it's years of product development, surviving bankruptcy, or navigating changing markets.

Systems, culture, and repeatable processes often create more enterprise value than the product itself.
Notable Quotes
"The world will be fine tomorrow without Starbucks. We have to earn our business every single day."

"I don't know, but I feel like I should keep going."

"Learn or die. Evolve or die. Adapt or die."
Connect with the Guests:
Mesh Gelman
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meshgelman

Website: https://cumuluscoffee.com
Shawn Nelson
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawndnelson/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shawnoflovesac

LoveSac: https://www.lovesac.com
David Royce
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-royce

Website: https://aptivepestcontrol.com
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 30% OFF select mattresses (through July 12, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
35 min
July 11REPOST SOLO | Make Money with Radical Responsibility
On this solo episode, host Travis Chappell breaks down one of the core values that has transformed his life and business: radical responsibility. Drawing from his background in door-to-door sales, leadership, and entrepreneurship, Travis shares hard-earned lessons about refusing to blame circumstances and instead reclaiming control over outcomes. Through real stories—from struggling sales reps to young first-time employees and heavy life situations like health crises—he lays out a practical, mindset-first framework for taking ownership so you can actually change your results.
On this episode we talk about:
Why adopting your own values (instead of inherited beliefs) is essential to growth.

What radical responsibility really means and how it differs from simple self-awareness.

The difference between “producing results” and “producing excuses” in sales and business.

How taking ownership (even when it doesn’t feel like your fault) gives you power and control back.

Why fault and responsibility are not the same—and how this applies to unfair or painful life circumstances.
Top 3 Takeaways
Radical responsibility is the starting point for becoming the person you want to be; if nothing is ever your fault, there is no path to improvement.

You are always producing something—either results or excuses—and only those who own their mistakes can actually learn, adjust, and win long term.

Something can be “not your fault” and still 100% your responsibility; you can’t control the cards you’re dealt, but you can control how you play them.
Notable Quotes
“Everybody produces. You’re just either producing results or you’re producing excuses.”

“Blame feels good, but it destroys all agency. Responsibility gives you your power back.”

“You can’t control the cards that you get dealt, but it is your responsibility to play them to the best of your ability.”
Connect with Travis Chappell:
LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/travischappell⁠

Twitter/X: ⁠https://twitter.com/traviscchappell⁠

Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/travischappell⁠

Other: ⁠https://www.travischappell.com
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 30% OFF select mattresses (through July 12, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
22 min
July 10CO-HOST | Make Money by Embracing AI Without Losing Your Creative Edge
Artificial intelligence is rapidly changing the creative landscape, but what does that actually mean for artists, musicians, and creators? In this episode, Travis is joined by producer Eric for a candid discussion inspired by a viral take from Grammy-winning songwriter Gino the Ghost on AI training models and copyright. Together, they unpack the legal, ethical, and creative implications of AI, debate whether technology threatens artistic careers, and explore why originality and human perspective will always matter.
On this episode we talk about:
The difference between AI training on creative works and copyright infringement

Why originality, taste, and perspective are still an artist's greatest advantage

The real concern that AI may reduce opportunities for working creatives—not just replace great artists

How writers, musicians, and creators are adapting to stand out in an AI-driven world

The ethical challenges of AI in creative industries, from music production to filmmaking
Top 3 Takeaways
AI learning from existing work is a different conversation than copyright infringement, and understanding that distinction is key to having productive discussions.

The creators who continue to innovate, develop a unique voice, and tell authentic stories are the least likely to be replaced by AI-generated content.

While AI may not outperform great artists, it could reshape creative industries by giving companies new ways to cut costs and reduce opportunities for working professionals.
Notable Quotes
"You own the copyright. You own the melody and the words, but you don't own the vibe."

"If your biggest fear is that somebody can type a prompt into a computer and replace your entire artistic output, your competition is not AI. Your competition is being boring."

"The problem with AI isn't AI. The problem with everything is people."
Connect with Travis Chappell:
Website: https://travischappell.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/travischappell

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travischappell
A Word from Our Sponsors:
- Visit DrinkAG1.com/TMM to get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies
last.
- Go to Leesa.com for 30% OFF select mattresses (through July 12, 2026) PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TMM, exclusive for my listeners
- To learn more about Mode Mobile and its investor community, go to https://invest.modemobile.com/travismakesmoney
-Travis Makes Money is made possible by High Level – the All-In-One Sales & Marketing Platform built for agencies, by an agency.
Capture leads, nurture them, and close more deals—all from one powerful platform.
Get an extended free trial at gohighlevel.com/travis

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
23 min

About Travis Makes Money

From the publisher's feed

You can't save your way to your dream life anymore. The truth is, you’re gonna need to learn to make more money. The Travis Makes Money Podcast is not your typical personal finance show. Rather than…