Trinities

"Before Abraham was, I was already, in God's plan, the Messiah."

Does the fourth gospel teach that Jesus existed long before his conception, even before the creation of the cosmos?

Most readers think so.

But in this episode Dr. Dustin Smith argues that rightly understood, this gospel neither assumes nor teaches that Jesus "preexisted," that is, existed before he was a human. He argues that we should read the gospel according to John in light of Jewish assumptions about human beings and the Messiah, taking care to understand the author's distinctive language and his "misunderstanding motif."

We discuss a number of passages which people often read as implying Jesus's preexistence, including John 1 ("In the beginning was the Word..." and "he was before me"), John 3 ("the one who descended"), John 6 ("ascending to where he was before"), John 8 ("Before Abraham was, I am."), John 16 "I came from the Father and have come into the world"), and John 17 ("the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed...").

This discussion builds on episode 61, in which Dr. Smith explains the Jewish habit of describing important things like the Messiah, the Torah, or the Garden of Eden as having existed before creation.

You can also listen to this episode (and all others) on youtube (scroll down), stitcher, or itunes (please rate us there).

Dr. Smith's blog: Dustin Martyr Blog

“The Nature of Preexistence in the

Gospel of John: A Case Study of

John 8:58 and 17:5? (pp. 45-61)

If a native English speaker says "you have a frog in your throat," this means that your voice doesn't sound normal, but is low, broken, "croaky." It is a mistake to think that he is saying that you literally have a frog in your throat!

What about when the author of Revelation refers to the

Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

and the Babylonian Talmud says that

Seven things were created before the world was made... Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the throne of glory, and house of the sanctuary, and the name of the Messiah.

Are we to take this sort of talk literally or not? If it's not meant literally, what is the point of this (to us) confusing way of talking? In this episode, Dr. Dustin Smith explains the ancient Jewish habit of describing important things or people as having always existed, or at least, having already existed.

Also, be sure to check out Dr. Smith's ongoing series of blog posts on pre-existence.

You can also listen to this episode (and all others) on youtube (scroll down), stitcher, or itunes (please rate us there).  If you would like to upload audio feedback for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast, put the audio file here.

Dustin Martyr Blog

"The Nature of Preexistence in the

Gospel of John: A Case Study of

John 8:58 and 17:5" (pp. 45-61)

Paradoxical Conquering in the Apocalypse of John

Atlanta Bible College

Does the Bible ever speak of redeemed humans as "gods"?

Many Jews and Christians have thought so.

In this episode Dr. Carl Mosser takes us on a journey through this theme in the Bible, including Psalm 82, the New Testament epistles, and the book of Genesis.

You'll have listen to see why I chose a picture of Joseph in his career as the Pharaoh's right hand man.

Links for this episode:

"The Earliest Patristic Interpretations of Psalm 82, Jewish Antecedents and the Origin of Christian Deification"

Dr. Mosser’s other papers at Academia.edu

 podcast episode 59 – Dr. Carl Mosser on salvation as deification

podcast episode 49 – 2 interpretations of Philippians 2 – part 2

When a Christian is saved, is she thereby deified? This is how Eastern Orthodox theologians describe Christian salvation, and it is a common saying that this is distinctive of Eastern Christian theology, but not of Western.

In this episode, Dr. Carl Mosser (Associate Professor at Eastern University, on leave, and a Visiting Scholar at the Center for Philosophy of Religion at the University of Notre Dame) challenges this assumption, taking us on a fascinating journey through the ancient and recent history of Christian theology. He's working on two books on this topic - one historical, the other theological.

He argues that people now make this assumption in large part because of super heavyweight German scholar, Adolph von Harnack (1851-1930). But in Dr. Mosser's view, we shouldn't just take von Harnack's word for it, but we should read the historical sources for ourselves.

Next week I'll talk with Dr. Mosser about the idea of salvation as deification in the Bible.

Links for this episode:

Dr. Mosser's papers at Academia.edu

a handout by Dr. Mosser: "Biblical, Western, and (Even) Reformed: Correcting Misconceptions about Deification"

The Gospel of John and Christian Theology

The Mormon World

The New Mormon Challenge (kindle)

Adolph von Harnack

his works at CCEL

encyclopedia entry

To the contrary, it seems possible that there be just one perfect being, one self who is all-knowing, all-powerful, completely good, and so on.

Professor Swinburne: we can argue from reason alone that the one God is a Trinity.

In September of 2014 I was privileged to attend a conference in honor of the greatest living natural theologian. For the uninitiated, this is what "natural theology" is (also here). The initiated hold Swinburne in awe because of his writings.  Richard Swinburne has produced an unparalleled string of carefully argued, in many cases ground-breaking books in philosophy of religion and in analytic theology (see the links below).

Many "big guns" of philosophy of religion came out to present at the conference, and to a person they related how Swinburne had inspired them to think deeply and carefully about various philosophical and theological issues. For my part, his The Christian God was the book that inspired and provoked me to look deeply into the issue of the Trinity. Professor Swinburne has a manly way of taking a stand on hard issues, fashion be damned. You may agree or disagree, but you will think.

The conference was called  Faith and Reason: Themes from Swinburne, and it was hosted by Purdue University. On a warm September  day-after-the-conference, Professor Swinburne and I sat outside on a bench on Purdue's lovely campus. In this episode, I interview Professor Swinburne about his life and work. How has he been so productive? What advice does he have for aspiring analytic  theologians? How has his work influenced academic theology?

You can also listen to this episode on Stitcher or iTunes (please subscribe, rate, and review us in either or both – directions here). It is also available on YouTube (scroll down – you can subscribe here). If you would like to upload audio feedback for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast, put the audio file here.

You can support the trinities podcast by ordering anything through Amazon.com after clicking through one of our links. We get a small % of your purchase, even though your price is not increased. (If you see “trinities” in you url while at Amazon, then we’ll get it.)

Next episode: an interview with Professor Swinburne on his views on the Trinity.

Links for this episode:

Professor Swinburne's home page

an encyclopedia entry which partially analyzes his work

Conference organizers Dr. Jeffrey Brower and Dr. Michael Bergmann, and the conference website (lecture videos coming soon)

Swinburne's books on philosophy of religion and analytic theology

The Coherence of Theism (1st edition - 2nd, substantially re-written edition out shortly)

The Existence of God, 2nd ed. (kindle)

Faith and Reason, 2nd ed. (kindle)

The Evolution of the Soul, 2nd ed. (kindle)

Revelation: From Metaphor to Analogy, 2nd ed. (kindle)

Responsibility and Atonement (kindle)

The Christian God (kindle)

Providence and the Problem of Evil (kindle)

Is There a God?, 2nd ed. (kindle)

Was Jesus God? (kindle)

The Resurrection of God Incarnate (kindle)

Mind, Brain, and Free Will (kindle)

debates

Unbelievable Radio Show / podcast debate with Dr. Bart Ehrman on "God's Problem" - evil and belief in God

2006 debate: Does God exist? vs. R. Joseph Hoffmann

2012 Amsterdam Veritas Forum debate: Is there a God? vs. Herman Philipse

2011 panel discussion: Is there a ghost in the machine?

lectures

2011  lecture at Notre Dame - What does the Old Testament mean?

2011 Cambridge on Simplicity, Complexity, Science, Dawkins and God

2014 on The Probability of the Resurrection of Jesus

2012 Biola interviews

on atonement

on arguments for God's existence

with Dr. Timothy O'Connor on Neuroscience and the Soul

on doubt and faith

on the future of philosophical theology

on the defense of Christian doctrine

on creedal Christianity

on the "new atheists"

Closer to Truth interviews with Robert Kuhn (all of them)

arguments for atheism

Is God perfect?

 other interviews

2014 interview by Total Philosophy: part 1, part 2, part 3

2008 Brazil interview by Desiderio Murcho

Locke fired back twice against Edwards's criticisms of Locke's The Reasonableness of Christianity.

John Edwards (1637-1726) was an Anglican Calvinist and would-be defender of Christian orthodoxy. Seemingly at the last minute, he tacked on to his Some Thoughts Concerning the Several Causes and Occasions of Atheism (1695) a critique of Locke's Reasonableness. Guns blazing, he charged Locke (among other things) with promoting "Socinianism" (aka "Racovian" theology, i.e. the type of unitarian theology famously expounded by the Polish Brethren, aka the Minor Reformed Church of Poland in the 17th c.), with despising the epistles of the New Testament, and so promoting biblical ignorance, perhaps, speculated Edwards, in service to Roman Catholicism! After a somewhat unsatisfying reply by Locke, Edwards followed with Socinianism Unmask'd (1696), in which he objects that if Locke is right, every Muslim is automatically a Christian - which, of course, is absurd.

In this episode, we hear from Edwards's books, and I point out some shortcomings of Edwards's arguments. He can't seem to stop himself from arguing ad hominem - against the man, criticizing Locke's character - rather than sticking to the topic of dispute. And Edwards assumes that because Locke doesn't mention all the things Edwards would put into a summary of Christian belief, then Locke either denies or simply doesn't value them.

In truth, probably Locke did deny some, and consider others as speculations, while believing others as firmly as Edwards. But what's important is that Edwards is missing the point. Of course, Locke agrees that Christians must believe whatever is divinely revealed (and he's far more concerned than Edwards about Christian disputes about the contents of revelation).But Locke is not listing what Christians should believe, but rather, what one must believe (or as I suggested in episode 53, must confess) in order to join the club. This latter list should be a lot shorter than the former list, lest there be a high barrier to entry into God's kingdom; it would be unwise for God to want to save many, and then to require beliefs which only a few are capable of. This is one of Locke's main points (and he thinks God has acted exceedingly wisely), but Edwards doesn't grapple with it.

You can also listen to this episode (and all others) on youtube (scroll down), stitcher, or itunes (please rate us there).  If you would like to upload audio feedback for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast, put the audio file here.

Next week, in episode 55, we'll hear some of Locke's A Second Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity, & etc., where Locke calls out some shortcomings of Edwards's case, and makes some important points the ethics of belief, and about disagreements between informed, sincere, humble, and biblically literate Christians. We'll also discuss some shortcomings of Locke's responses.

Links for this episode:

John Locke: The Reasonableness of Christianity as Delivered in the Scriptures. A reprint edition, which also includes reprints of two follow-up books in which Locke defends himself. Includes helpful introduction by philosopher Victor Nuovo.

John Locke: Vindications of the Reasonableness of Christianity. The definitive scholarly edition of the two follow-up books, edited with extensive notes by Victor Nuovo. Extracts of numerous writings relevant to Locke’s book and the ensuing controversy.

John Locke and Christianity: Contemporary Responses to The Reasonableness of Christianity, ed. Victor Nuovo. Includes partial versions of Edwards's Some Thoughts Concerning the Several Causes and Occasions of Atheism and his Socinianism Unmaks'd - quoted in this episode.

podcast episode 52 – John Locke’s The Reasonableness of Christianity, Part 1

podcast episode 53 – John Locke’s The Reasonableness of Christianity, Part 2