Valley of Depth

This week on Pathfinder, we’re joined by Matt Weinzierl, Chair of the MBA Program and Professor at Harvard Business School, and Brendan Rosseau, a member of the strategy team for launch at Blue Origin. Together, they’ve co-authored Space to Grow: Unlocking the Final Economic Frontier, a new book exploring the history, key players, and economic forces driving the momentum behind the space industry.

We discuss:

• The evolution of space economics and how government-private sector dynamics are changing
• The role of NASA as an anchor customer and whether the model has limits
• The rise of defense-focused pivots in commercial space companies
• Market competition and whether we’re seeing monopolization in space
• The economic case for lunar activity, space stations, and emerging industries
• The biggest risks that could stall commercial space progress

Their book launches on February 25, and this conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in the economic forces shaping the future of space. You can order here!
 

• Chapters •

00:00 Intro

04:00 HBS’s Space Program

06:36 An introduction to “Space to Grow”

08:50 The shift from space to defense

13:02 What to expect from the book

16:56 Space competition or monopolization?

21:52 How classic economic principles apply to space

29:24 Are we transitioning away from NASA to anchor customers?

33:36 Does space have the right financing structures in place to build this industry?

38:47 Economic case for the Moon (Mars?)

44:16 Viability of space stations

48:22 What space industries have the best economic potential in the next couple decades?

52:32 Biggest impediment to the space industry

55:43 Key takeaways from “Space to Grow”

59:05 Matt and Brendan's favorite books

01:01:13 Where to find Matt and Brendan

• Show notes •

Space to Grow — https://www.amazon.com/Space-Grow-Unlocking-Economic-Frontier/

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes
 

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we’re joined by Jeremiah Pate, founder and CEO of Lunasonde, a company pioneering subsurface imaging from space. Lunasonde is developing technology to map the Earth’s underground, leveraging low-frequency synthetic aperture radar (SAR) to identify critical minerals and resources.

With two satellites launched and the first full-tech satellite in their constellation set to launch in July, this episode dives into how Lunasonde is reshaping resource exploration. We also discuss:

• Lunasonde’s founding story and Jeremiah’s inspiration for the company
• The fundamentals of subsurface SAR and how it differs from traditional radar technologies
• The company’s royalty-based business model and its potential to disrupt the critical minerals industry
• Real-world applications, including a breakthrough discovery of a previously unknown copper deposit
• The long-term vision for Lunasonde, including applications beyond Earth and mapping resources on the Moon and asteroids
• Insights on the challenges of scaling a space startup and navigating regulatory barriers

And more…

• Chapters •

00:00 Intro

03:04 What is SAR?

05:19 What is subsurface?

06:29 Critical minerals and Lunasonde's approach to the market

07:49 Size & demand

10:20 System architecture

11:28 Lunasonde's launches

12:02 Interpreting SAR data

13:27 SubSAR vs seismic imaging or ground penetrating radar

15:25 Environmental reasons behind building subSAR

16:22 How to ensure accuracy and reliability of the data

17:08 Corona satellites

20:48 How does Lunasonde convince ideal customers to embrace new technologies?

22:48 Examples of discovering new deposits

24:09 Lunasonde's competitors

26:02 Why do people think subSAR is impossible?

27:12 Going beyond the Earth

28:39 Other revenue models

30:27 Commercial vs government traction

31:27 Is Lunasonde looking for partnerships with space mining startups?

32:14 Scaling path

33:09 Funding

34:11 What keeps Jeremiah up at night?

34:52 Long-term vision

36:53 Could orgs like NASA use Lunasonde's capabilities for more intensive resource hunting missions?

38:28 What would Jeremiah like to change in the space industry?

40:51 If Jeremiah wasn't working at Lunasonde, where would he like to work?
 

• Show notes •

Lunasonde’s website — https://www.lunasonde.com/

Lunasonde’s socials — https://x.com/Lunasonde/

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes
 

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we’re joined by Awais Ahmed, founder and CEO of Pixxel, a company focused on developing hyperspectral imaging technology from space. Pixxel is developing the world’s first commercial hyperspectral satellite constellation, aiming to provide detailed insights into critical industries like agriculture, energy, and defense.

With the recent launch of three Firefly satellites—the first in Pixxel’s commercial fleet—this episode explores the company’s progress and vision for the future of Earth observation. We also discuss:

• Pixxel’s founding story and Awais’ background in satellite engineering and Hyperloop competitions
• The fundamentals of hyperspectral imaging and its advantages over traditional imaging methods
• Pixxel’s satellite constellation plans and how they’re balancing commercial and government markets
• The role of AI in satellite imaging and its potential to unlock new applications
• Awais’ take on the evolving Earth observation market and the challenges of scaling a space startup

And more…

• Chapters •

00:00 - Intro

00:48 - Impact of the new administration

02:32 - The story behind Pixxel

07:37 - Hyperspectral imaging

11:14 - How hyperspectral fits into the other types of satellite imaging

15:01 - How big is the satellite imaging market today?

17:30 - Government uses and advancements in hyperspectral

21:30 - Established commercial vs growing government markets

25:23 - What does Pixxel's constellation look like?

27:22 - Firefly vs Honeybee

28:03 - Customer experience at Pixxel

29:46 - AI's impact

33:44 - Most valuable part of the EO stack

36:05 - Starlink architecture and other EO businesses

37:49 - Pixxel's commercial traction

39:27 - What's a good margin profile?

42:01 - Valuation of public EO businesses

45:19 - Raising private capital in EO and fundraising plans

48:37 - Pixxel in 2035

50:22 - What else excites Awais besides EO?

51:29 - Pixxel's US office
 

• Show notes •

Pixxel’s website — https://www.pixxel.space/

Pixxel’s socials — https://x.com/PixxelSpace

Awais’ socials — https://x.com/awaisahmedna

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes
 

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we welcome Adam Draper, founder and managing director of Boost VC, an early-stage venture capital firm based in San Mateo, CA, specializing in pre-seed deals in deep tech, including space.

Boost VC’s track record includes early investments in space companies such as Varda, Starfish Space, and K2 Space. This episode explores the philosophy and strategy behind the firm’s approach to venture capital.

In addition, we discuss:

• Adam’s journey into VC and the Draper family legacy in the industry
• The firm’s commitment to backing “impossible” ideas and frontier technologies
• Insights into investing in deep tech, from identifying committed founders to understanding market risks
• The importance of storytelling and momentum in aerospace and defense startups
• Boost’s role in shaping the future of space industries, from lunar water mining to satellite servicing and space manufacturing
• Predictions for the future of space and deep tech, including the rise of biopharma in orbit and even the search for extraterrestrial life

And much more…

• Chapters •

00:00 - Intro

00:45 - Adam's background

07:48 - Boost VC

11:57 - How do you tell a founder has commitment?

14:04 - Signs of a founder with a real interest in space

17:54 - Making the case for the space market

20:51 - On the frontier

23:01 - Signs Adam looks for when he needs to step in and direct a company

28:20 - Investing in software vs. deep tech

30:43 - Early-stage pre-seed investing

38:07 - How would a founder differentiate themselves when it comes to fundraising?

43:25 - How to stay ahead of the curve with investing in space

48:36 - Craziest space deal Adam has invested in

51:46 - Adam's 2025 predictions

• Show notes •

Boost VC website — https://www.boost.vc/

Boost’s socials — https://x.com/BoostVC

Adam’s socials — https://x.com/AdamDraper

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes
 

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we’re ready to kick off 2025 with our first episode back from a brief holiday hiatus. Joining us is Stefan Powell, co-founder and CEO of Dawn Aerospace—a company focused on building scalable, sustainable space transportation solutions. After cutting their teeth with an in-space propulsion business, Dawn is now pushing the boundaries with Aurora, a rocket-powered plane that recently breaking the sound barrier (or Mach 1).

In this episode, we explore:

• From Student Rocket Club to Thriving Venture: Stefan’s background and how his early rocketry experiences shaped Dawn’s mission.
• Satellite Propulsion: Why Dawn’s safer, scalable alternatives to traditional satellite fuel are gaining traction in the market—and how they enable near-term revenue.
• Aurora’s Breakthrough Flight: Hitting Mach 1.1, testing supersonic aerodynamics, and the path toward suborbital flight capabilities.
• Hypersonics & Beyond: Why government R&D and military programs are pouring billions into hypersonics research—and how Dawn plans to help solve the “access-to-test-time” gap.
• Aircraft-Like Space Access: Dawn’s long-term vision for truly rapid, reusable, runway-based vehicles that could revolutionize launch operations.
• Building for the Future, One Step at a Time: How Stefan thinks about scaling, capital efficiency, and bridging near-term commercial opportunities with an ambitious roadmap.

…and much, more.

 

• Chapters •

00:00:00 - Intro

00:01:45 - Founding Dawn

00:06:33 - Core products

00:08:52 - Sustainability

00:11:25 - How Stefan got into the space industry

00:16:20 - What Stefan is developing with Aurora

00:19:09 - Recent flight

00:20:38 - Why is it important to go past Mach 1?

00:24:02 - Technical milestones before full orbital capabilities

00:26:43 - Hypersonics and building commercial ability

00:30:23 - Government customers

00:31:39 - Opportunities in hypersonic weapons?

00:33:02 - Payload capacity of first commercial launch vehicle

00:33:58 - Long-term scaling goals

00:37:15 - What is so difficult about building commercial hypersonic platforms?

00:42:05 - Most significant hurdles when it comes to scaling and manufacturing

00:44:32 - Building in New Zealand

00:46:38 - Revenue mix

00:48:15 - Capital efficiency

00:51:47 - Effect of Starship on the launch market

00:53:42 - What does success look like for Dawn over the next 10 years

00:56:25 - What Stefan has learned about being a CEO/Founder for 15 years

00:58:11 - Everything's on the table

• Show notes •

Dawn’s website — https://www.dawnaerospace.com/

Dawn’s socials — https://x.com/DawnAerospace

Stefan’s socials — https://x.com/Stefan__Powell

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

Quick PSA: This is our final Pathfinder episode of 2024! We’re so grateful for your support and can’t wait to bring you more content and a new format next year. Stay tuned!

In our third and final episode of our special three-part Pathfinder series on lunar architecture—brought to you by our partners at Lockheed Martin—we’re focusing on how nuclear-enabled technologies will power and propel a sustainable future on the Moon. This episode ties together the insights from the series and offers a vision of how energy systems will enable humans to survive on the lunar surface and venture deeper into the solar system.

Joining us are Kerry Timmons, Senior Manager of Business Development at Lockheed Martin for Lunar Infrastructure, and Joe Miller, President of BWXT Advanced Technologies. Together, they share their perspective on the role nuclear power and propulsion play in supporting a long-term presence on the Moon.

We also discuss:

• How nuclear technologies provide reliable power during the lunar night and beyond
• The engineering challenges and solutions for deploying nuclear systems
• The interplay between nuclear and solar energy in a resilient lunar grid
• Applications for nuclear thermal propulsion
• The collaborative efforts required across government, industry, and international partners to make this a reality

And much, much more…

• Chapters •

00:00:00 - Intro

00:01:05 - Joe's background

00:02:47 - Kerry's background

00:04:19 - Vision for a thriving lunar infrastructure

00:07:13 - Nuclear and space

00:08:48 - Lockheed's history with nuclear

00:10:23 - Lessons from history that make current power systems in space more efficient

00:13:00 - Nuclear's importance for a sustained lunar presence

00:16:09 - Engineering challenges

00:18:54 - How does mass play a role in the design of the nuclear reactor?

00:20:24 - What will these reactors power?

00:22:04 - Regulation & safety

00:25:22 - Space Policy Directive – 6

00:27:03 - International alignment

00:30:24 - Propulsion

00:34:30 - Chemical vs. nuclear propulsion

00:38:53 - When will nuclear systems be ready for use?

00:40:06 - Economic reason for using nuclear propulsion

00:43:34 - Terrestrial application for nuclear

00:44:40 - Startup capabilities that Lockheed is interested in

00:47:25 - What tech breakthrough would you prioritize for the Moon?

00:49:36 - Innovation predictions in the next 10 years
 

• Show notes •

Lockheed Martin’s website — https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/capabilities/space/human-space-exploration/water-based-lunar-architecture/lockheed-martins-lunar-architecture-novella-white-paper.html

Lockheed Martin Space’ socials — https://twitter.com/LMSpace

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes
 

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

In the second episode of our special three-part Pathfinder series on lunar architecture—brought to you by our partners at Lockheed Martin—we’re zooming in on the technologies and design principles that will help establish a sustainable, long-term presence on the Moon and pave the way for future missions to Mars. Joining us are Christie Iacomini, who manages Lockheed Martin’s lunar infrastructure technology portfolio, and Tim Cichan, the company’s space exploration architect.

Christie and Tim walk us through the building blocks of lunar infrastructure, from robust power systems and reliable communications networks to habitats and mobility solutions. They also highlight the importance of resource utilization, the evolving role of public-private partnerships, and the collaborative efforts needed to turn ambitious concepts into practical solutions.

We discuss:

• The role of vertical solar arrays, nuclear fission systems, and power grids in supporting lunar operations
• Communications challenges and the roadmap for building an interoperable lunar network
• Innovative habitats and rovers designed to withstand extreme lunar conditions
• Strategies for in-situ resource utilization, including extracting water ice and other key materials
• The significance of international collaboration and commercial engagement in achieving lasting lunar sustainability

And much, much more…
 

• Chapters •

00:00 - Intro

03:45 - What is a space architect?

04:42 - Lockheed's goal for Mars

08:23 - Technological advancements that have made a long-term Moon mission possible

09:52 - What does a successful Lunar mission look like?

11:46 - Power systems for Lunar and Mars missions and state of development cycles

18:15 - Tech in Artemis II and III

20:04 - Challenges for creating a seamless communications network for the Moon

22:34 - Effect of modern tech in space

27:10 - Lunar mobility capabilities

30:44 - Habitation

33:14 - Inflatable vs modular habitats

34:20 - Lunar resource utilization

36:42 - How to create seamless integration between mission-critical tech

41:55 - Planned contingencies

43:49 - Seemingly futuristic technology

45:54 - Getting around on the Moon

47:48 - How Lockheed works with other companies building Lunar architecture

49:01 - Technical milestones

50:58 - What will it take to land on the Moon on time?

52:07 - Inspirations for your work

• Show notes •

Lockheed Martin’s website — https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/capabilities/space/human-space-exploration/water-based-lunar-architecture/lockheed-martins-lunar-architecture-novella-white-paper.html

Lockheed Martin Space’ socials — https://twitter.com/LMSpace

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we’re excited to bring you a special one-off episode, made possible by Astroscale U.S., the Denver-based subsidiary of Astroscale, a global provider of on-orbit servicing solutions. This episode dives into the DoD’s push to integrate commercial in-space servicing, assembly, and manufacturing (ISAM) capabilities to enhance flexibility, resilience, and sustainability in military space operations.

Joining the discussion are retired Colonel Dennis Wille, Senior Director of Business Development for National Security at Astroscale US, and John “Patsy” Klein, Senior Fellow in Strategy at Falcon Research and a leading expert in space policy and strategy. Together, we unpack how ISAM technologies are transforming space operations and advancing U.S. leadership in the domain.

This episode covers:

• The DoD’s commercial space integration strategy and ISAM’s role in enhancing operational resilience
• The challenges and opportunities of managing space debris and enabling active debris removal
• How ISAM capabilities like refueling, repair, and inspection are reshaping spacecraft lifecycles
• The critical role of commercial partnerships in supporting national security objectives
• The future of space operations and the technologies poised to drive innovation

And much, much more…
 

• Chapters •

00:00 - Intro

04:12 - What is ISAM and why is it so important to the DoD's space strategy?

06:08 - Patsy's role in commercial integration of ISAM

08:49 - What is the DoD's commercial space strategy?

10:57 - Astroscale's priorities

14:53 - Why does the government care about debris removal?

16:18 - Why does space junk removal help the US to maintain leadership in space?

19:30 - PLEO and commercial opportunity

22:49 - Tech capabilities being developed at Astroscale

26:50 - Mature ISAM capabilities that we have today

29:23 - Astroscale and DoD partnership

31:07 - Government vs commercial customer makeup prediction

32:19 - Policy/regulatory hurdles for ISAM

34:17 - What will it take for commercial to become a bigger part of Astroscale's business?

37:09 - Does ISAM have an education issue?

39:18 - Technical gaps in ISAM

40:50 - What technological advancements should we anticipate?

42:24 - What defense strategies will ISAM create?

45:06 - How Astroscale positions themselves against competitors

47:59 - Advice for investors interested in ISAM

49:28 - How can the US maintain their leadership role in space?

51:53 - Book recommendations
 

• Show notes •

Astroscale’s website — hhttps://astroscale-us.com/

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes
 

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we’re kicking off a special three-part series on lunar architecture, brought to you by our friends at Lockheed Martin. To kick off the series, we’re exploring the future of lunar architecture more broadly with Rob Chambers, Director of Strategy for Human Space Exploration at Lockheed Martin, and Alex MacDonald, Chief Economist at NASA. 

In this episode, Alex and Rob share their perspectives on the complexities of building sustainable lunar missions and the critical technologies shaping the future. The discussion dives into the integration of international collaboration, public-private partnerships, and groundbreaking innovations that will enable humanity’s return to the Moon and its next steps across the solar system.

We also cover:

• NASA’s Artemis program and the Moon-to-Mars exploration strategy
• The role of international and commercial partnerships in advancing lunar missions
• Foundational infrastructure, including habitats, rovers, and nuclear power systems
• Lessons from Apollo and how they inform today’s approach to sustainable lunar exploration
• The evolving lunar economy and what it might mean for humanity’s future in space

And much, much more...

• Chapters •

00:00 - Intro

01:25 - Rob's and Alex's background

04:22 - NASA's vision for the Moon

09:15 - NASA and Lockheed: their history with the Moon

13:36 - Lessons from previous Lunar missions

16:34 - What has changed to allow partnerships to be more efficient?

25:13 - Challenges working with international agencies

30:35 - Helium-3 mining and other lunar business models

37:14 - Lockheed's Lunar Roadmap

43:05 - Who are the other players in the Artemis program and collaboration?

49:56 - Resiliency and risk

55:13 - End goals for Lunar missions in the next 100 years

01:02:41 - When are we landing on the Moon?

• Show notes •

Lockheed Martin’s website — https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/capabilities/space/human-space-exploration/water-based-lunar-architecture/lockheed-martins-lunar-architecture-novella-white-paper.html

Lockheed Martin Space’ socials — https://twitter.com/LMSpace

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/

This week on Pathfinder, we are joined by Chris Morales, Partner at Point72 Ventures, for a discussion on venture capital’s role in shaping the space and defense technology landscape. 

In this episode, Chris provides a detailed overview of Point72 Ventures’ strategic approach to investing, drawing on his background as a former naval officer and his experience in venture capital. The conversation covers key trends and challenges facing the space and defense sectors, with a focus on how startups can navigate this evolving ecosystem.

In addition, we discuss:

• Point72 Ventures’ investment framework and focus on emerging technologies critical to national security
• The growth of the space economy, from the adoption of proliferated LEO architectures to in-space mobility innovations
• Evaluating companies across different stages of maturity
• The role of government programs and non-dilutive funding
• SpaceX’s impact on market dynamics and its broader implications for venture-backed companies
• Structural and financial barriers that space and defense startups face, and how investors can help address them

• Chapters •

00:00 - Intro

01:02 - Chris's Thanksgiving must-haves

02:15 - Point72 Ventures overview

05:35 - History with space

06:42 - Why did Point72 Ventures first get into space?

09:00 - Chris's thesis about the space industry

10:49 - Proliferated LEO

12:11 - Predictive work and investments

13:02 - At what stage in a company is Point72 Ventures looking to invest?

13:53 - How does space fit into the investment strategy?

15:51 - What happens when a portfolio company isn't hitting their milestones?

17:12 - The process

18:39 - How Point72 Ventures separates itself and what it provides beyond capital

20:31 - Public and private sides of the firm

21:13 - Market dynamics

24:05 - Is there enough government funding for startups, and are they winning enough contracts?

27:29 - Does SpaceX's valuation make sense?

29:47 - Starship vs. Starlink business prediction

32:42 - Is SpaceX a monopoly?

33:26 - Is SpaceX a concern when it comes to investing in the industry?

35:04 - Biggest issues facing startups today and how can investors help

39:04 - Over and under-hyped areas of the market

40:36 - Space ventures in the next decade

42:25 - Gaps in the market

43:37 - Advice to founders looking to start a space company

45:00 - Mars

47:00 - What does Chris do for fun?

• Show notes •

Point72 Ventures’ website — https://p72.vc/

Point 72 Ventures’ socials — https://x.com/p72vc

Chris’ socials — https://x.com/MrChrisMorales

Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam

Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@payloadspace

Pathfinder archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/episodes

• About us •

Pathfinder is brought to you by Payload, a modern space media brand built from the ground up for a new age of space exploration and commercialization. We deliver need-to-know news and insights daily to 19,000+ commercial, civil, and military space leaders. Payload is read by decision-makers at every leading new space company, along with c-suite leaders at all of the aerospace & defense primes. We’re also read on Capitol Hill, in the Pentagon, and at space agencies around the world.

Payload began as a weekly email sent to a few friends and coworkers. Today, we’re a team distributed across four time zones and two continents, publishing five media properties across multiple platforms:

1) Payload, our flagship daily newsletter, sends M-F @ 9am Eastern

2) Pathfinder publishes weekly on Tuesday mornings (pod.payloadspace.com)

3) Polaris, our weekly policy briefing, publishes weekly on Tuesdays

4) Payload Research, our weekly research and analysis piece,  comes out on Wednesdays
 

You can sign up for all of our publications here: https://payloadspace.com/subscribe/