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Aaron MacLean is a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Previously, he was senior foreign policy advisor and legislative director to Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas. Aaron served on active duty as a U.S. Marine for seven years, deploying to Afghanistan as an infantry officer in 2009–2010. Following his time in the operating forces, he was assigned to the faculty of the U.S. Naval Academy, where he was the 2013 recipient of the Apgar Award for Excellence in Teaching. Aaron received a B.A. in philosophy and the history of math and science from St. John’s College, Annapolis, and an M.Phil. (Dist.) in medieval Arabic thought from the University of Oxford. He has been a Boren Scholar and a Marshall Scholar and lives in Virginia, where he was born.

Chapters  in this episode:

• Avoiding Knowledge of War is Dangerous
• Do Systems Incentivize War?
• To Be or To Do: Boyd's Challenge
• Is There a Better Way to Get Better?
• Boyd: People, Ideas, Things. Always in That Order!
• Ponch is an Aviator, and Culture is HUGE
• Accountability is Crucial to True Leadership
• Boyd is So Much More Than "OODA Loop"
• Quantico is a "Boyd School"
• Reducing Boyd is a Disadvantage
• Boyd Focused on Conflict, Which is Everywhere
• Studying Conflict Builds Better Leaders
• Team Training and Team Science in Healthcare
• Measuring What Matters
• A Thank You and a Gracious Invitation That Ponch and Mark Accept!

Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.

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John R. Boyd's Conceptual Spiral was originally titled No Way Out. In his own words: 

“There is no way out unless we can eliminate the features just cited. Since we don’t know how to do this, we must continue the whirl of reorientation…”

March 25, 2025

Flow Learning Lab

Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast
Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation

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The No Bell Podcast Episode 24
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