Last week, I spoke with human rights researcher and advocate Yaqiu Wang, whose recent NYT piece draws on the lessons of her childhood in authoritarian China. We talked about her detention in China when she was a student posting on an anonymous Twitter account, the capitulation of the elites, and how to resist obeying the regime. Watch our convo here, and or listen on Substack and anywhere you get your podcasts.

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Today we're talking with Benjamin Teitelbaum, author of "War for Eternity: The Return of Traditionalism and the Rise of the Populist Right," who studies traditionalist movements and far-right ideology. We explore why these ideas have such allure in America today, using JD Vance as our lens to examine his conversion t…

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Today we’re talking with Rich Logis, a former Trump and MAGA supporter and pundit, who is now the founder of Leaving MAGA, an organization helping others break free from the movement.

In this episode, we talk about:

* Rich Logis's personal journey from dedicated MAGA supporter to founding Leaving MAGA

* How information bubbles and community identity can lead people to reject contradictory evidence and view those outside their group as existential threats

* The psychological process of doubting, leaving, and publicly renouncing a political movement that had become central to one's identity

* How people seeking to help loved ones still in MAGA can approach conversations with empathy and understanding

* The importance of creating new communities for those experiencing doubt, as Leaving MAGA offers an "exit ramp" for people questioning their support

This episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.

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We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with the great writer and reporter John Jeremiah Sullivan. We discuss:

* John’s forthcoming book "The Prime Minister of Paradise" about Christian Gottlieb Priber, a radical Enlightenment thinker who established a utopian experiment among the Cherokee in 1730s America

* How Priber's vision for "Paradise" included revolutionary principles that were ahead of their time: religious tolerance, racial equality, democratic governance, and rejection of slavery

* The forgotten history of radical Enlightenment ideas in early America and how they influenced (but weren't fully embraced by) the founding fathers

* The parallel between today's political threats to democracy and the tension between enlightenment and anti-enlightenment forces that has existed throughout American history

* The importance of identifying and defending the core enlightenment principles that make the American experiment worth fighting for

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We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with the great Ben Meiselas, co-host (and -founder) of the chart-busting MeidasTouch, and USC Law Professor. Virginia also recently profiled Meiselas for The New Republic.

In this episode, we talk about:

* How politics has become "gamified" like sports entertainment, with people choosing political figures like they'd pick fighters in a video game rather than focusing on underlying issues and values

* The contrast between Meidas Touch Network's approach (focused on empathy, compassion, and data-driven analysis) versus rage-driven media algorithms

* How sports and entertainment are being used as tools for political messaging; think of UFC, WWE figures, and sports teams visiting the White House

* The concerning overlap between entertainment spectacle and serious governance, with political conversations being treated like debates about reality TV

* Meidas Touch Network's stunning growth metrics, now generating more views than Fox News and more podcast downloads than Joe Rogan

This episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.

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We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with Mandeep Tiwana of CIVICUS, a global alliance of civil society organizations and activists working to strengthen citizen action and civil society throughout the world. And CIVICUS just added the United States to its Watchlist.

In this episode, we talk about:

* Why CIVICUS has put the U.S. on a democracy watchlist alongside countries like Serbia and Congo

* The scary erosion of basic American freedoms like protesting, speaking out, and organizing

* How America's gone through rough patches before, but why this time feels way more alarming

* How democracy is torn down with alarming speed, and takes decades and centuries to rebuild

* What regular Americans can do to spot these freedom-crushing red flags before things get even worse

This episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.

What Rough Beast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new episodes and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

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We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with Michael Tomasky, author, journalist and editor of The New Republic.

In this episode, we talk about:

* The media earthquake nobody's talking about - this was the FIRST election where Fox News and right-wing media actually out-muscled the mainstream press in setting the national agenda (and it explains SO much about Trump's win)

* The impossible trap journalists face today: try to debunk crazy stories about "immigrants eating pets" and you end up amplifying the very nonsense you're fighting against 🤦‍♀️

* All the wild stuff happening just LAST WEEK - from Trump's team spilling military secrets in Signal chats to straight-up extorting law firms (and Michael doesn't hold back on what this says about their contempt for rules)

* A brilliant idea that could save Democrats: create a "shadow government" like the Brits do, with designated people to tackle each Trump disaster instead of everyone scrambling to respond to everything

* Proof that good journalism still matters! The New Republic's reporting actually forced the Trump administration to restore a program tracking Ukrainian children taken by Russians (small wins in dark times)

This episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.

What Rough Beast is a listener-supported podcast. To receive new posts and support this work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

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We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with Nicholas Dames, a Columbia professor and editor-in-chief of Public Books. In this episode, we talk about:

* The importance of political imagination in building community beyond our immediate circles of concern

* How George Eliot's "Middlemarch" offers a model for empathetic action even during challenging times

* The tension between stoicism and engagement as responses to political upheaval

* How today's college students face unique anxieties about their futures and limited options

This episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.

What Rough Beast is a listener-supported podcast. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

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We are Virginia Heffernan and Stephen Metcalf, and today we’re talking with Eric Reinhart, a physician-anthropologist of law, psychiatry, and public health and a psychoanalytic clinician in Chicago. A recent piece of his, “RFK Jr.’s Mental Health Bait and Switch,” recently appeared in The New Republic.

In this episode, we talk about:

⭐️ How the politics of health and mental healthcare are intertwined, and how clinical approaches often focus too narrowly on individual interventions rather than addressing broader social determinants of health

⭐️ The weaponization of mental health critiques by political figures like RFK Jr. and the Trump administration, who accurately identify problems in our healthcare system but propose destructive rather than constructive solutions

⭐️ How mental health "destigmatization" has benefited some groups while further marginalizing others, particularly those with serious mental illness

⭐️ The need for community-based care models and public infrastructure that values neighbor-to-neighbor support rather than solely relying on medical professionals

⭐️ The connection between eugenicist ideologies and certain public health approaches that prioritize individual responsibility over structural solutions

This episode is free to all listeners, but please consider becoming a paid Magic + Loss subscriber. Every dollar goes to the continued fight against fascism.

What Rough Beast is a reader-supported podcast. To receive new episodes and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.