This is an update from me, WRS host and producer Cherie Louise Turner, about my running, training, and racing. This picks up from where the last episode of the Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project, Part 9, left off.

As I mentioned in my last episode, I have decided to stop focusing so completely on this sub-20 minute 5k goal, so am just calling these running updates. I still have a sub-20 goal, but it's not my all-consuming singular focus.

This update covers the time period between mid-March and mid-May 2025. I left off in the midst of a break from running, and in this episode, I share details about my return to a formal training program. I'm experimenting with some new approaches to training that I'm very excited about.

Feel free to join the journey from here; it's not mandatory to listen to previous episodes of my running story (which includes parts 1-9 of the Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project, and two Comrades race reports, from 2022 and 2023) in order to enjoy this one. Previous episodes will provide more context around my running story and provide details about the many lessons I have learned so far.

Come along for the journey.

Mentioned in this Episode

Find the whole Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project series ⁠here⁠.

Gwen Jacobson on WRS: womensrunningstories.com/gwen-jacobson-masters-marathon-champion-120-plus-marathons-and-counting

Cherie's Comrades Race Report 2022: womensrunningstories.com/cherie-turner-2022-comrades-marathon-a-hear-her-sports-special-collaboration

Cherie's Comrades Race Report 2023: womensrunningstories.com/cherie-louise-turner-2023-comrades-marathon-experiencing-the-magic-again-and-better

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: ⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631⁠

Spotify: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa⁠

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of ⁠Playtoh⁠

⁠Coma-Media⁠, via ⁠Pixabay⁠

⁠penguinmusic⁠, via ⁠Pixabay⁠

⁠RomanBelov⁠, via ⁠Pixabay⁠

⁠SergePavkinMusic⁠, via⁠ Pixabay⁠

⁠Lidérc Bell⁠, via ⁠Pixabay

⁠Camila_Noir,⁠ via⁠ Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: ⁠@over50sub20_5k_project⁠

WRS Instagram:⁠ @womensrunningstories⁠

Facebook: ⁠facebook.com/WomensRunningStories⁠

Website:⁠ womensrunningstories.com⁠

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: ⁠https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Angel Tadytin shares the epic story of her first 50-mile trail race, and how it unfolded in unexpected and magical ways.

Tadytin is a wife, mother, social worker, and ultra runner, and she is from the Navajo Nation. She and her family currently live in Mesa, Arizona, but she’s originally from Page, Arizona, and the surrounding area.

Tadytin is also a lifelong hiker and outdoor explorer, and a

The event that is at the center of this story is the Antelope Canyon Ultras 50 mile trail race, which goes through the land that Tadytin grew up on. The longest race Tadytin had ever run before was 55 km (34 miles), also

Not only had Tadytin never run 50 miles before, she’d never wanted to run 50 miles. She didn’t even commit to this 50-miler until a month before the

So, her training did not take a conventional path: most athletes would have started training for an event like this several months beforehand, and they’d have run several long runs of 20 or more miles in preparation.

Tadytin’s longest run leading into the event was 16 miles, which she ran once.

The reasons why Tadytin decided to run this 50 mile event, and the strength, support, connection, and experience that carried her through and to the end is what this story is all about. 

Instagram: @angels_ventures

Mentioned in This Episode

Native Women Run: @native_women_run

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple:⁠ https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631⁠

Spotify:⁠ https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa⁠

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of⁠ Playtoh⁠

⁠Coma-Media⁠, via⁠ Pixabay⁠

⁠RomanBelov⁠, via⁠ Pixabay⁠

SergePavkinMusic⁠, via⁠ Pixabay⁠

⁠aidanpinsent⁠, via ⁠Pixabay

⁠penguinmusic⁠, via⁠ Pixabay⁠

⁠⁠Rockot⁠, via⁠ Pixabay⁠

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram:⁠ @over50sub20_5k_project⁠

WRS Instagram:⁠ @womensrunningstories⁠

Facebook:⁠ facebook.com/WomensRunningStories⁠

Website:⁠ womensrunningstories.com⁠

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network:⁠ https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a live recording from Sunday, April 20 at the Boston Marathon Expo. Once again, WRS host Cherie Turner teamed up with Julie Sapper and Lisa Levin from the Run Farther and Faster podcast to co-host an excellent panel.

This year's panel was titled Mental Strategies for Mastering the Marathon, and it featured exceptional masters marathoners Stephanie Bruce, Erica Stanley-Dottin, and Dot McMahon.

These women shared wisdom and experience on strategies for developing mental strength and resilience, mental approaches to the marathon, how to build confidence when you have self-doubt, and so much more!

This is an episode to listen to again and again; it's so packed with helpful advice and useful takeaways.

Stephanie Bruce, 41, has been racing professionally for over 15 years. Among her many racing accomplishments, she's placed 6th at the Chicago Marathon, and 10th at the London and NYC marathons. Bruce has also earned 3 national titles on the road, one in the half-marathon and twice in the 10k. Additionally, Bruce placed 6th at the Olympic Marathon Trials in 2020. Bruce started a new chapter in her running career this year, signing on with Tracksmith. She now runs for them professionally and will be helping to mentor younger runners going after big goals.

Erica Stanley-Dottin, 51, came to marathoning later in life, at age 35. In her early 40s, she began to train seriously and joined the Black Roses racing team. She then learned about The List: an accounting of all the American-born Black women who have broken 3 hours in the marathon. As she continued to get faster at the marathon, this became her goal. Erica met that goal with room to spare at the 2022 Berlin Marathon where she ran 2:52, at 48 years old. That came just six months after running 3:01 at Boston. This year, Stanley-Dottin ran the Boston Marathon as a member of Team Bevans, in honor of marathon pioneer Marilyn Bevans.

Dot McMahan, 48, has been running marathons for 19 years and she’s run for the Hanson Brooks Original Distance Project team for 20. Among Dot’s many accomplishments over her long running career, she’s qualified for and run 5 Olympic trials marathons, and she has placed in the top 10 at two of them. Last year, she was the oldest woman to compete in the marathon trials, and she qualified for last year's trials by running 2:35 at the 2023 Grandma’s Marathon. Dot is also a running coach. She works with private athletes and as an assistant track coach for Oakland University.

How to Keep Up with Stephanie Bruce

Instagram: @stephrothstein

How to Keep Up with Erica Stanley-Dottin

Instagram: @estanleydott

How to Keep Up with Dot McMahon

Instagram: @dotmcmahon

Ways to Connect with Run Farther and Faster

Instagram: @runfartherandfaster

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RunFartherFaster

Twitter: @RunFartherfast

Website: https://www.runfartherandfaster.com/

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Women's Running Stories is a member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode features prolific marathon runner and internationally competitive masters racer Gwen Jacobson.

Jacobson, who is 66, got started running in 2010, when she was in her 50s. She has run many distances, but without question she has the greatest affinity for the marathon: in the last 15 years, Jacobson has run over 120 marathons as well as one 50k.

In addition to loving the 26.2 mile distance, Jacobson loves big challenges and she is very goal oriented. So, for instance, she has completed a marathon in every state, under 4 hours. She also wants to win her age category in a marathon in all 50 states, so where that hasn’t already been the case, she’s going after that goal, too. Jacobson has 7 states left in that challenge.

She’s also chasing a sub-3 hour marathon on a downhill course, and she’s gotten very close. Her current downhill marathon PR is 3:04, which she set at the end of 2023. She has plans to better that time at the end of 2025.

Jacobson has gone through her fair share of trial and error when it comes to staying injury free, and she’s learned a lot about bone health. She’s landed on healthy habits that work for her, and she shares that in her story, too.

In this episode Jacobson shares so much: about her running progression, her goals and how she continues to run fast and far now in her mid-60s.

How to Keep Up with Gwen Jacobson

Instagram: @gwenjacobson

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

chillmore, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

Grand Project, via Pixabay

Camila_Noir, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode features Alia Qatarneh, whose running story is deeply infused with community and leadership, especially through the Boston area based TrailblazHers Run Co. Her story highlights the way the three forces of running, community, and leadership have coalesced to drive her running journey. And how that's led to her running the 2023 Boston Marathon—her first time running 26.2 miles—and then to running the 2024 Boston City 26.TRUE marathon, which she'll be running again this year, 2025: 26,TRUE happens this weekend, Saturday, April 19.

Away from running Qatarneh is a doctoral candidate at the Harvard Graduate School of Education on her way to becoming a doctor of education leadership, and she has a background in science and science education. 

Qatarneh is a runner, as well as a LeadHer for the TrailblazHers, an organization that fosters diversity and creates a welcoming environment for all women, especially women of color.

In her episode, Qatarneh traces how she started in the sport of running and how she's developed as a runner and leader throughout her journey.

Get pumped up to cheer on Qatarneh and the rest of the runners this year at 26.TRUE!

Mentioned in this Episode

TrailblazHers: @trailblazhersrunco

Pioneers Run Crew: @pioneersrc

29.TRUE: @26.truemarathon

Liz Rock on WRS: womensrunningstories.com/liz-rock-a-trailblazhers-journey-running-the-boston-marathon-for-mile-21-joy

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

aidanpinsent, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

Grand Project, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a special live recording featuring professional runner and 3x national champion Annie Rodenfels, in conversation with WRS host and producer Cherie; that's me. We sat down at the Tracksmith track house in Boston on Sat., March 22, with a wonderful crowd on a beautiful morning to have this fantastic conversation.

Annie Rodenfels is a born competitor. We get into how she progressed from being a high school soccer player who ran track and field, to a top NCAA DIII runner, and then to one of the best distance racers in the US.

This is not a common trajectory: most DIII runners don't turn pro, let alone become one of the best in the pro field. Rodenfels has worked smart and hard to get here, developing her strength, skill, and ability. It's been a years long, step by step process, and all along the way, Rodenfels continues to rise to the occasion.

Among her many professional career highlights, Rodenfels is the 2023 and 2024 5k National Champion, and the 2024 6k National Champion. And she won the first 10k she ever raced, the prestigious Boston 10k for Women, in 2023.

Through it all, Rodenfels's training, mental game, confidence, and racing style has evolved, and she gets into it all.

How to Keep Up with Annie Rodenfels

Instagram: @andrearodenfels

Annie Rodenfels's Previous Appearance on WRS

Race Report: Annie Rodenfels + USATF 6k National Championship

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode features ultra trail runner and mom Mayra Garcia, who is originally from Honduras and now calls Maryland home.

Garcia loves to run, and she loves to run very far: training for ultras is a big part of her life today. But not too long ago, Garcia wasn’t a runner at all. Not until one fateful day, when, instead of turning to coping with life's challenges in unhealthy ways, like using alcohol, Garcia decided to run.

That run sparked a whole new life for Garcia.

In this episode, Garcia tells the story of how she got from that moment to today, having run marathons and trail ultras, keeping a well-established running streak going, and just wanting more: more miles, more mountains, more challenges. In addition to her own running goals and passion, Garcia wants to inspire other women, especially women of color, to get out on the trails and discover the powerful world of ultra running.

How to Keep Up with Mayra Garcia

Instagram: @colocha.runs

Mentioned in this Episode

Running Industry Diversity Coalition, RIDC: runningdiversity.com

Naseemah Palmer on WRS: womensrunningstories.com/naseemah-palmer-running-reminds-me-im-living

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

aidanpinsent, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

chillmore, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

Lidérc Bell, via Pixabay

Grand Project, via Pixabay

AlexGrohl, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode features longtime professional runner, entrepreneur, mother of three, wife, and so much more, Stephanie Bruce. In this episode Bruce, who is 41, shares the purpose and passion that’s driving her these days, as she moves into a new chapter in her running career. It’s a time of transition and exciting new paths forward.

As a professional runner in her early 40s, Bruce shares valuable experience and information about what it looks like to age as a elite athlete, and how she's processing it. She continues to explore what's possible as a professional athlete, and also how she's making that happen–how she's navigating the changes that come with getting older.

Bruce has been racing professionally for over 15 years, and in that time she has accomplished so much as a runner, and she’s not done yet. Some of her many career achievements include 10th at the New York City and London marathons; 6th at the Chicago Marathon; 12th at the Boston Marathon; 3 national championship titles–once in the half marathon, and two times in the 10k; 6th at the 2020 Olympic Trials Marathon–and the list goes on.

But the significance of Bruce's pro career goes way beyond times and places. She’s been very open about her running journey and how she’s navigating living a full life outside of running, including having her three children–Hudson, Riley and Sophia–while continuing to show up year after year ready to perform at her best. Bruce is known for being a tough, smart, gritty racer and a powerful supporter of teammates, as well as other runners in the field. 

Last year, 2024, was a big transition year for Bruce: for the past decade, Bruce was a member of the HOKA Northern Arizona Elite team, also known as NAZ Elite. She learned part-way through 2024 that her contract wouldn't be renewed, and her time with the team would be over at the end of year. In addition, Bruce had her third child, at age 39, in September 2023, which meant that 2024 would be a postpartum return to full time training and racing.

This is all to say, 2024 was a tumultuous year for Bruce. And she gets into it all in this episode. She also shares the pivotal experiences in her life that have played a huge part in shaping

how she shows up for running and for life.

How to Keep Up with Stephanie Bruce

Instagram: @stephrothstein

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

aidanpinsent, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is part 9 of the Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project, where WRS host and producer Cherie Louise Turner is sharing her journey to break 20 minutes in the 5k, in her 50s, in real time.

Feel free to join the journey from here; it's not mandatory to listen to previous episodes in order to enjoy this one. Previous episodes will provide more context around this project and provide details about the many lessons Cherie has learned so far.

This episode picks up where Cherie left off in late December 2024: she'd set a mile PR in October and was navigating coaching herself once again.

In this episode, Cherie shares what's happened over the past few months. It's been a time of learning to race with joy, regardless of the outcome, and also a time of reflection and readjustment. It's led to a shift in Cherie's thinking around this project, and a big decision.

About this project: In June of 2023, Women's Running Stories host and producer Cherie Louise Turner closed the chapter on running longer distance races (at least for now), like marathons and ultras, and turned her attention to the 5k. Her goal: break 20 minutes in the 5km. Cherie is currently 55 years old and she has never dipped under 20 minutes at this distance. The closest she's ever gotten was back over a decade ago, when she ran 20:18. Cherie's current day 5k PR is 21:01, set June 2024.

This update spans late December 2024 to mid-March 2025. To catch up on all past episodes check out the links and publication dates below.

Come along for the journey.

Links and Publication Dates to Earlier Episodes in this Series

Find the whole series here.

Part 1, pub date (September 8, 2023): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-the-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-1/id1495427631?i=1000627157697

Part 2, pub date (October 27, 2023): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-the-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-2/id1495427631?i=1000632786362

Part 3, pub date (January 5, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-3-the-reset/id1495427631?i=1000640614612

Part 4, pub date (March 25, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-4-the/id1495427631?i=1000650320154

Part 5, pub date (May 28, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-louise-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part/id1495427631?i=1000657010943

Part 6, pub date (July 23, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-louise-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part/id1495427631?i=1000663065105

Part 7, pub date (October 8, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-louise-turner-part-7-over-50-sub-20-5k-project/id1495427631?i=1000672194951

Part 8, pub date (December 25, 2024): https://womensrunningstories.com/cherie-louise-turner-part-8-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-a-mile-pr-a-coaching-change

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

aidanpinsent, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

chillmore, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the transformative running story of Samantha Powderhorn, who is from the Sayisi Dene First Nations community, in northern Manitoba, Canada. She currently lives in Winnipeg.

Powderhorn’s story revolves around breaking cycles of addiction and healing trauma, for herself, her family, and her community.

Today Powederhorn is the first Sayisi Dene woman to have ever run a marathon. She is also an inspiration to her six children, and to her community, that healing and change are possible.

Hear how running was central to Powderhorn discovering new possibilities in life, creating a healthy path forward, for herself and those around her. This is an incredibly powerful journey.

How to Keep Up with Samantha Powderhorn

Instagram: @sayisitaurus

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

Grand Project, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

Lidérc Bell, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices