Katie Gunvalson had a calling: traverse the entirety of the 2,700 mile Pacific Crest Trail. This audacious goal was something Gunvalson's younger self would have never considered.

But, it's exactly what she did.

The PCT, true to its name, follows the crest of the mountain ranges between Canada and Mexico, going through Washington, Oregon, and California, along the Cascade Range, the Sierra Nevada, and the mountainous desert terrain to the US–Mexico border.

And not only did Katie want to get from one end of the PCT to the other, she wanted to do it faster than any other woman ever had. She wanted to set a Fastest Known Time, an FKT, in the south bound direction. That record was set by Jessica Pekari: 63 days, 7 hours, 31 minutes.

So that is what Gunvalson prepared to do, for years; and she was ready. But there was one challenge that ultimately presented itself that Gunvalson really hadn't anticipated, and it would cause her to very deeply consider the real purpose of this journey.

Katie Gunvalson shares her whole epic story on the podcast. From her difficult and unlikely path to becoming a runner, to discovering and following a calling to cover the entire PCT, and the wild ride of getting from Canada to Mexico.

How to Keep Up with Katie Gunvalson

Website: katiecorvid.com

Mentioned in This Episode

Liz Derstine on WRS: Her Appalachian Trail FKT Story

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

chillmore, via Pixabay

aidanpinsent, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a special live recording featuring 8x masters world record holder Sue McDonald, 61, in conversation with WRS host and producer Cherie; that's me. We sat down the Tracksmith track house in Boston on Sat., Feb 1, to a wonderful group who braved snowy weather for this terrific conversation.

We get into how McDonald has stayed healthy and competitive over her 40-plus year career as a highly competitive athlete—in many sports. And how, at age 59, she looked over the record books and set to raising the bar for what's possible for women athletes her age. She targeted not one, but many world bests.

In her training and preparation McDonald left no stone unturned, and she talks about it all. Plus what she's doing today to remain fast, and work to get faster.

This conversation, and the terrific Q&A that followed, provides many useful tips and takeaways to use in your own training and racing. Whether you're a masters racer, or you aspire to be one someday, there's a lot here for you.

Sue McDonald currently holds 8 world records: 400m and 800m indoor and outdoor; 1 mile indoor; 300m hurdles; steeplechase, and heptathlon. She was a heptathlete through college, and became a nationally competitive pole vaulter in her post-collegiate years. She has also competed as a triathlete, and in 2018, she ran the Boston Marathon (the storm year!).

In 2023 McDonald set 9 world records for 60-64 masters women and was named the USATF Masters Track and Field Athlete of the Year. To put her records in a different context, McDonald set or reset 15 world records over a 16 month period.

How to Keep Up with Sue McDonald

Instagram: @suemcdonaldfitness

Sue McDonald's Previous Appearance on WRS

Sue McDonald: 9 Times a Masters World Record Setter

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jenny Sandoval is the 2022 NCAA DII 10,000 national champion, and now running as a post-collegiate elite/pro, she is focused on discovering her full potential in the sport.

It's been a time of big ups and downs, as Sandoval navigates life as an elite runner, with a full time job. Her performance at the recent USATF cross country national championships, held on January 11 in Lubbock, Texas, was a high point, after a period of serious injury.

Sandoval shares how it all went down at the national championships, from her point of view. And she shares the details of what running life has looked like over the past few years, including another surprise incredible performance, in her debut marathon: it was both a heartbreaker and a performance beyond expectation. Hear the whole story in this episode.

This episode is part of the WRS Race Report series. Each episode features a top 10 performer sharing her experience at one of the USATF National Championship races (the year-long series aspect of these races is apparently no more).

Next up on the calendar is the USATF half-marathon national championship, March 2 in Atlanta, GA. There will be a WRS race report episode shortly thereafter.

You can catch up on all the Race Reports on our website or on your favorite podcast app.

How to Keep Up with Jennifer Sandoval

Instagram: @thatgirljenny

Mentioned in This Episode

Renegade Running: renegade-running.com

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

chillmore, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Weini Kelati is a professional road and long distance track racer for the Mission Run Dark Sky Distance team sponsored by Under Armour. Kelati is one of the best US racers in the 10k, 5k, and, more recently, half marathon.

In this episode, Kelati shares how she got to this point in her running career, with a particular focus on the transformation her racing went through over the past year.

This involves hard training, of course. But Kelati also had to improve her physical and mental skills when it came to races that did not suit her preferred style of racing. And, she needed to overcome times of wavering self confidence as well as learn how to process difficult emotions; emotions linked to Kelati's decision to leave her home and family in Eritrea when she was 17 and start a new life in the US.

Hear the whole story of how Kelati became the champion runner she is today: the risks she's taken to get to this place, the sacrifices she's made, for herself and her family, and the focused, diligent work she's put in to reach the very high goals she sets for herself.

Weini Kelati's story is truly exceptional.

How to Keep Up with Weini Kelati

Instagram: @weini_kelati

Mentioned in This Episode

Mission Run Dark Sky Distance Team: @missionrun_darksky

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

RoyaltyFreeMusic, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Heather Caplan's running story spans many seasons of her life. And through those seasons, she has discovered how wins in her running life can show up in many different ways.

These days, Caplan is a runner, a run coach, a dietician, the mother of three children, and she is also well known for being the co-founder of the Lane 9 Project, with Alexis Fairbanks. To quote Caplan, "Lane 9 is a community of athletes and a directory of clinicians and coaches that work with female athletes. And we're all trying to improve menstrual health and reduce REDs across various levels of sport." You can discover Lane 9 through its website, podcast, and newsletter.

These days, running looks very different than it did earlier in her life. Caplan first started running in college, a time marked by disordered eating and amenorrhea. Caplan discusses the intersection between her running pursuits and these health challenges, and how running has changed over time, through her early adulthood, and then through becoming the mom of three, in addition to navigating the rest of life, which has included several long-distance moves.

Caplan's journey through it all, to where she is today, finding a renewed sense of belonging and joy in her running life, is what her episode is all about.

How to Keep Up with Heather Caplan

Instagram: @heatherdcrd

Website: heathercaplan.com

Mentioned in This Episode

Lane 9 Project: lane9project.org

Women’s Running Stories Newsletter: womensrunningstories.substack.com

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

Grand Project, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

chillmore, via Pixabay

RoyaltyFreeMusic, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today Chantelle Erickson is an ultra trail runner and, as she says, a multipreneur, in addition to being a wife and the mother of two children. Erickson runs her business Be Well Chantelle, and under the umbrella of that business, she has many offerings. One of them is Baby Mama, where she offers pre- and postnatal fitness services; she is a running coach. 

Additionally, Erickson is a financial advisor focused on helping women with financial literacy. She is also a freelance writer, and one of her primary outlets is Canadian Running Magazine. And, Erickson is a recurring co-host on the Community Trail Running podcast, with Adam Lee. 

So today, Erickson is thriving in many ways, but things for her were definitely not always like this. A little background here, Erickson was raised by her grandmother and her mom who had Erickson just as she was finishing high school. Erickson did not connect with her father until much later in life, and she talks about that in her story. 

Over the course of her life, Erickson has experienced many traumas and her upbringing and early adulthood were chaotic. And then running came into her life and it provided a steady foundation for many positive changes. 

What Erickson discovered through her running journey and how it all unfolded is what her story is all about. 

How to Keep Up with Chantelle Erickson

Instagram: @runningmama85

Website: bewellchantelle.com

Mentioned in This Episode

Community Trail Running podcast: communitytrailrunning.substack.com/podcast

Cherie Louise Turner on the Community Trail Running podcast: communitytrailrunning.substack.com/p/ep-119-the-womens-running-podcast

Women’s Running Stories Newsletter: womensrunningstories.substack.com

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

penguinmusic, via Pixabay

Lidérc Bell, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vanessa C. Peralta-Mitchell was inspired to start running after learning how hard women had fought to just participate in sports. That moment of inspiration would eventually change her life, setting Peralta-Mitchell on a path to change the running industry.

How that all unfolded is what this episode is all about.

Peralta-Mitchell is a runner, business owner, running coach, and mother of three children. She's well known for being the founder of Game Changers, an organization that supports women of color to become run coaches and leaders in the running industry. Game Changers started in 2020, and in October of 2024 accepted its fifth cohort of women into the program: like those who came before them, these 24 new women from 12 states will become certified run coaches, and receive mentoring and business development support. This adds to the over 80 women who've already gone through the program.

Just last year, Peralta-Mitchell also launched PWRher'd. This is a program, powered by Game Changers, that partners with races and gives entrants an opportunity to sign up for online coaching services that get them ready for that specific race, so they can be well prepared to have a successful experience. Additionally, when PWRher'd partners with a race, they make a contribution to the local community on behalf of the partnership.

Peralta-Mitchell's story demonstrates what can happen when we see our potential as limitless.

How to Keep Up with Vanessa C. Peralta-Mitchell

Instagram: @vcpmitchell

Website: vcpm.com

Game Changers: vcpm.com/game-changers

How to Keep Up with PWRher'd

Instagram: @pwrherd

Website: pwrherd.com

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

Grand Project, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For this episode, I chose a variety of clips from 10 episodes published in 2024 that have stuck with me and made an impact. This isn't a "best of" so much as a celebration of the huge variety of experiences and motivations women have in this sport.

I hope you'll find something in here to motivate and inspire you, and perhaps spark a new interest for 2025. It's incredible how much this sport brings to so many people and the myriad ways it can show up in our lives.

Enjoy!

Clips were pulled from these 10 episodes

Katie Holmes: The Life-Changing Power of Running, After 40, published Sep 17

Sister Liz Sjoberg: Becoming a Sister on the Run, published Jan 19

Alison Mariella Désir: Climbing Mount Kilimanjaro, published Jul 9

Emily Halnon: An Epic Trail Run to the Gorge, Her Book, Her Mother, Her Return to Living Big and Bold, published May 6

Rebecca Mehra: Professional Track Racer, On a Season of Inspired Change, published Mar 8

Race Report: Rachel McArthur + USATF One-Mile National Championships, published May 20

Anita Cardinal: Don't Stop Unless You're Proud, published Jan 11

Micha Powell: An Olympian's Transformative Race Experiences and Book: Sprinting through Setbacks, published Aug 12

Carmen Graves: Professional Track Racer and Steeplechaser, published May 13

Naseemah Palmer: "Running Reminds Me I'm Living," published Nov 4

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is part 8 of the Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project, where WRS host and producer Cherie Louise Turner is sharing her journey to break 20 minutes in the 5k, in her 50s, in real time.

Feel free to join the journey from here; it's not mandatory to listen to previous episodes in order to enjoy this one. Previous episodes will provide more context around this project and provide details about the many lessons Cherie has learned so far.

This episode picks up where Cherie left off in early October: she'd made the big move from Cork, Ireland, back to Boston, Mass., and had returned to racing. She ran a 10k to get back in the groove of running fast, and she had a great time, racing with her US team the Tracksmith Boston Hares.

In this episode, Cherie shares what's happened over the past few months, including a mile PR and a coaching change. Through it all, Cherie continues to learn and grow, as an athlete and a competitor. And she's having a lot of fun along the way.

About this project: In June of 2023, Women's Running Stories host and producer Cherie Louise Turner closed the chapter on running longer distance races (at least for now), like marathons and ultras, and turned her attention to the 5k. Her goal: break 20 minutes in the 5km. Cherie is currently 55 years old and she has never dipped under 20 minutes at this distance. The closest she's ever gotten was back over a decade ago, when she ran 20:19. Cherie's current day 5k PR is 21:01 (set June 2024).

This update spans early October to the latter part of December 2024. To catch up on all past episodes check out the links and publication dates below.

Come along for the journey.

Links and Publication Dates to Earlier Episodes in this Series

Find the whole series here.

Part 1, pub date (September 8, 2023): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-the-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-1/id1495427631?i=1000627157697

Part 2, pub date (October 27, 2023): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-the-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-2/id1495427631?i=1000632786362

Part 3, pub date (January 5, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-3-the-reset/id1495427631?i=1000640614612

Part 4, pub date (March 25, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part-4-the/id1495427631?i=1000650320154

Part 5, pub date (May 28, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-louise-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part/id1495427631?i=1000657010943

Part 6, pub date (July 23, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-louise-turner-over-50-sub-20-5k-project-part/id1495427631?i=1000663065105

Part 7, pub date (October 8, 2024): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cherie-louise-turner-part-7-over-50-sub-20-5k-project/id1495427631?i=1000672194951

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

chillmore, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Birdie Wermy had moments of connecting to running early in life. But it wasn't until she was an adult that her journey with the sport really got going. At that time, Birdie was going through some big life challenges, and a co-worker suggested she participate in a running event. That was where it all started.

Birdie Wermy lives in Oregon but is originally from Oklahoma. She is the mother of two, and she is a native woman, of Southern Cheyenne, Kiowa, and Pawnee ancestry. As part of her running story, Birdie also embarked on a life of sobriety. That has been a central part of discovering a deeper connection in her running practice, resulting in more meaningful experiences, growth, and healing. This deeper connection manifested in a particularly strong way at the 2024 Chicago Marathon, which Birdie ran as a member of the Native Women Run team.

Birdie shares her powerful story on the podcast.

How to Keep Up with Birdie Wermy

Instagram: @redrace_oregon

How to Keep Up with Native Women Run

Instagram: @native_women_run

Website: nativewomenrunning.com

Mentioned in this Episode

Live conversation with Native Women Run at the 2024 Chicago Marathon Expo: womensrunningstories.com/live-event-native-women-run-team-at-the-2024-chicago-marathon-expo

Verna Volker: womensrunningstories.com/verna-volker-a-journey-of-health-and-healing-culture-and-community

Support Our Supporters

Lagoon Pillows: lagoonsleep.com/WRS15

Use the discount code WRS15 for 15% off your first order

YMR Track Club: ymrtrackclub.com

Use the discount code WRS20 for 20% off your purchase

To support WRS, please rate and review the show

iTunes/Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/womens-running-stories/id1495427631

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4F8Hr2RysbV4fdwNhiMAXc?si=1c5e18155b4b44fa

Music Credits

Cormac O'Regan, of Playtoh

Coma-Media, via Pixabay

RomanBelov, via Pixabay

Grand Project, via Pixabay

Rockot, via Pixabay

SergePavkinMusic, via Pixabay

Ways to Connect and Engage with Women's Running Stories

Over 50, Sub 20, 5k Project Instagram: @over50sub20_5k_project

WRS Instagram: @womensrunningstories

Facebook: facebook.com/WomensRunningStories

Website: womensrunningstories.com

Email host Cherie: [email protected]

Women's Running Stories is a proud member of the Evergreen network: https://evergreenpodcasts.com/

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices