2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

We head back to that early ’80s horror sweet spot with 1982’s The Slayer, an obscure island-set slasher we found streaming on Tubi.

We dig into its standout Tybee Island, Georgia locations (including the fort ruins and the abandoned theater), the surprisingly gorgeous orchestral score, and how the film tries to blend standard slasher beats with surreal, dreamlike, potentially supernatural elements. Along the way we break down the small adult-couple cast dynamic, the slow soap-opera pacing, the shadowy killer presentation, and several kills (including a memorable pitchfork moment) while noting the heavy A Nightmare on Elm Street parallels. We also unpack the confusing, ambiguity-driven ending and why the movie feels ambitious even when it doesn’t fully land.

Episode 488, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: Well, I wanted to take us back to another ’80s horror movie, you know, this sweet spot in the early ’80s between ’81 and ’82. We did a whole theme month, I think, on ’82 horror, but there was still so much that we haven’t covered yet that I just keep pulling out of the ether.

Just when I think I’ve covered most of the weird, kind of obscure things from 1982, I’ll be on Tubi and I’ll be like, “Oh my God, there’s like five more things here,” all of which I’ve never heard of before, and most of which look at least a little intriguing. And I’m, I’m kind of a completionist in this way.

I love seeing what, what’s going on at this time period. And, uh, we just covered one a couple weeks ago. I wanted to keep going with this theme, and so I found this movie called The Slayer from 1982. It was, I don’t know, it was somehow in my list somewhere that kind of wanted to get to. I don’t remember what I originally read about it.

Nothing special. Just thought we’d go in blind and see how this turned out. And, uh, here we are. First time I had seen it, but it is available on Tubi. How about you, Craig? Had you seen this before or heard of it? 

Craig: No. No, I’d never seen of it or heard of it. And, you know, we don’t get paid by them. Tubi, if you’re listening, you could give us, you know, a shout-out.

Um, but seriously, like, really of all of the streaming services, I find that its catalog is kind of the most diverse, and they’ve got things coming and going all the time. You can almost always find… And, and to be fair, a lot of times- Tubi Fair … you have to wade through a… To be fair, a lot of times you have to wade through a lot of crap.

Like- 

Todd: Oh, yeah … 

Craig: I can’t tell you how many times, but that’s usually newer stuff, like lower budget new stuff that I put on and I can tell in the first five minutes, I’m like- Yes … this was shot on an iPhone. The acting is already terrible. I, I don’t, I’m not even gonna give it a try. But this older stuff, you will find, uh, some interesting stuff in there, some, some gems.

And I don’t know if I would classify this as a gem, but it’s interesting. Yeah. Uh, and I think it’ll be interesting to talk about. 

Todd: It’s gonna be really fun to talk about. It’s directed by this guy, uh, named J. S. Cardone or Cardone. I don’t know how you pronounce those names. And, uh, he’s done a handful of genre films, about 20 or so, all kind of like this, little horror, little thriller.

Stuff mostly either for TV or for straight to video it seems like. This one obviously did come out in the theater before it, it went to video. 

Craig: The only thing that I recognized on his list was he did the Prom Night remake. 

Todd: Yeah. Have you seen that? 

Craig: Yeah, and I remember next to nothing about it, which is never a good sign.

I mean, I, it was very typical of those 2000 slashers. Nothing, nothing to write home about. 

Todd: Well, this one in a way is very typical of these early 80s slashers. You know, we’ve done things like The Mutilator and the one that we did a couple weeks ago. These are shot in the US, so this is not a Canadian one.

In fact, this one was shot down in Georgia, and I was– As we were watching this, I thought, “God, these locations look so familiar to me,” and I’m trying to figure out, is it just because most of these movies take place in the same few settings, or is it because these are the actual locations I’ve seen other movies in?

And so I did a bit of a deep dive to figure out where this was shot, and it was shot on Tybee Island in Georgia. Mm-hmm. And indeed, we’ve seen a couple films that were shot on this island. 

Craig: Oh, really? 

Todd: Yeah. One of which was, well, The Menu. You remember The Menu? That’s a newer one. 

Craig: Oh, yeah. 

Todd: Uh, that was shot there.

At least, uh, it got, production got moved there about halfway through. But the other one we saw that was shot there was, uh, The Beach House. Remember that one? 

Craig: Oh, yeah, yeah. 

Todd: Baywatch has been shot there. Some Cobra Kai episodes have been shot there. And then it’s home to a couple forts. There’s, uh, Fort Screven, which is from like the Spanish American War, and there’s a Fort Pulaski, which is more Civil War era.

And I pi- pulled up the vi- because there’s a point in here where they walk through these ruins of, you know- Uh-huh … e- early on in the movie, and I thought, “God, I mean, what are those? We never see them again. That’s gotta be some location thing.” 

Craig: I know. 

Todd: And I think those might be the ruins from Fort Screven.

But while I was looking up Fort Screven, I saw- found this Fort Pulaski that’s also on that island, which is more brick walls and things like that. Again- Uh-huh … it’s Civil War era. And that is where Abraham Lincoln vs. Zombies was filmed. 

Craig: Oh. And 

Todd: I tell you- That’s funny … you pull up those pictures, and you’ll be like, “Oh, yeah, clearly.”

Right, right. And it’s been the site of a lot of these things too. And there’s a theater in this movie, an abandoned, bombed out looking old theater that now has been completely restored and renovated and is a very active theater. In fact, in the movie, it’s clearly just sitting kind of by itself in the middle of nowhere on what maybe was an old main street or something of this, this, uh, island.

But I think the island since the early ’80s has really undergone some, you know- 

Craig: Oh, yeah … 

Todd: renovations and stuff. And now it looks beautiful. And that, that whole area, like, there’s, there’s buildings around it, and it’s clearly on, like, a street and, and, uh, there’s a lot of activity around that theater and stuff.

So it’s really neat to see, you know, how these old set locations, either they stay the same, they get razed or, in this case, just really built up. It’s, it, it was fun ’cause that theater is kind of a bit of a set piece toward the end of the movie and- 

Craig: Yeah. Well, and, and the whole island really serves as a, a really cool set piece.

I mean, you talked about them walking through that fort at the very beginning, and it looks really cool. Yeah. And it’s obviously, you know, it’s, it’s clearly an actual location. Th- and I feel like that’s what they were doing. Like, as soon as they arrive on the island, and we’ll backtrack a little bit here in a second, but as soon as these characters arrive on the island, they have to trek, like, all the way across it to get to where they’re actually staying And I think that they just did that to take advantage of the location.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Why would you not film on that location? Frankly, I, I question why they never went back there. I thought surely they would go back. Surely there would be some sort of climactic chase or scene or something- Right … there, and they never really do. That theater that you said, it’s like a, a rundown theater, and when I say r- like uninhabited, you know, it’s a shell of a theater basically.

Yeah. But it is cool looking, and you can totally tell it’s practical. And y- when you say, you know, you said it must have developed some since the ’80s. Well, yeah, I, I think that when they shot there, it was pretty much abandoned. I mean, very… almost uninhabited. And now I think, like, you know, you said The Beach House was filmed there.

That was a, a whole community of fancy beach houses. A- and like you said, they have renovated that theater, and at some point, I don’t know if it was for an anniversary or a celebration of the 4K release or something, they did a s- a screening of this movie there for the locals. 

Todd: Oh. 

Craig: And apparently some of the locals remembered when the cast and crew came through and all that stuff, so.

Oh, that’s so cool. Yeah, I mean, it’s, that’s, that’s one of the cool things about it. I mean, it’s shot on a really cool location. It’s on an island, so you get lots of beach footage, and the house that they end up staying in is, is really cool. I’m not sure. I didn’t read anything I would have kind of a difficult time believing that the exterior and the interior w- really went together.

Yeah. Um, only, only because the exterior looks a little bit run-down, not nearly as much as the theater. Maybe still inhabitable, but by the time they get inside, it’s, it’s super, super nice. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I don’t know if they filmed those on sets or, or what, but- 

Todd: I’m not sure … 

Craig: yeah, the, the setting itself is, you know, a big perk for the film as a whole.

Todd: And it’s a little nostalgic too, because so many of these movies, whether they take place, oh, in the woods, on a ca- summer camp, or here on the beach, you get inside these homes and they almost all look the same, don’t they? 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Wood panels, ’70s era homes with, you know, a couple floors in them, and a big living room, and an odd kitchen in the back, and often, like, a patio out front.

I mean, this is the template for the house that the slashers happen in. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And I was, again, I was just thinking about The Mutilator because of the setting. I think when we did The Mutilator, we were talking about how unusual it seemed to have this setting that normally is, like, a summer camp, or it’s in the woods.

Instead, it’s a cabin on the beach. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And The Mutilator came out two years after this movie, so actually this one precedes it. I don’t know what other cabin on the beach movie there were. I get Bay of Blood, that Italian movie from way back- Mm-hmm … that precedes all of this, and sort of the prototypical slasher.

But, uh, yeah, I liked the setting. I thought the setting was almost as much a character as everything else, and it really fit in with the dreamy, drama-y nature of all of this. So much more you can do with the water, and the ocean, and the horizon, and the beach, and all the… I don’t wanna get too deep in here, but, like, you know, the, just all these imagery of the beach, and the sand, and ever-shifting patterns, and high tide, and low tide, and- Sure

all that, I think really helps play into the themes that they’re going for. Which I think are actually kind of ambitious. I feel like this movie, ultimately I found it kind of plodding and mostly- 

Craig: Yeah … 

Todd: boring and slow. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: But I think they were aiming for something that they just didn’t quite hit. 

Craig: Yeah.

Yeah, I agree with you. It just seemed like every scene that wasn’t a, like, suspenseful kill scene just went on, like, three or four beats too long. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Why am I still watching this? Like, anyway. Y- you had talked about how it really kind of is one of those standard slashers of the era, and it is, almost to a frustrating amount- Hmm

for me. Because I feel like the filmmakers were attempting something different, and it just didn’t actually ever get realized. It, more or le- In terms of the way that it’s shot and the way that it looks and the way that the villain or, or killer or whatever is shown to us, it could be any slasher movie.

It could be Mutilator, it could be I Know What You Did Last Summer, it could be, you know, any typical slasher. But I feel like he tried to weave into the story this surreal, dreamlike, potentially supernatural element- 

Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: that I wish they would’ve leaned heavier into Before the last two seconds. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Or, or before the last five minutes.

And, and maybe that had something to do with, you know, I don’t know, uh, budget. You know, I, I know that the studio that made this… I think that they were already done filming when the studio that made this went bankrupt, and they just kind of put together what they had. Like, I, I read that when it initially came out it hadn’t even been color corrected.

Like, a lot of the scenes were in pitch black because they hadn’t really done anything with them. I’m assuming that the one that we saw was the 4K transfer because I didn’t find that to be the case. No. I, I felt like even in the dark scenes I could pretty much tell what was going on. 

Todd: Honestly, I thought it was really well lit and really beautifully shot, honestly.

But yeah, I suppose that if we had seen this on VHS, you know- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: 20, 30 years ago it would’ve been very different picture for- 

Craig: Yeah. And, and, and, and I feel like it was… The movie is a little bit, not ahead of its time, but it, it’s, it’s a part of that transition from those typical slashers to something a little bit more heady.

Now, specifically you could easily draw major connections to A Nightmare on Elm Street. 

Todd: Oh, my God. 

Craig: Because- 

Todd: Yeah. I feel like there is a world that exists where potentially Wes f- Wes Craven saw this movie as he was, you know, thinking about his Freddy character. And I mean, it was only two years after this came out that Nightmare on Elm Street came out.

It certainly seems thematically to be coming up upon that idea. Just y- like you said, if, if they had developed it a little bit more it would look very, very similar to Freddy. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, without, without giving too much away, the main girl has nightmares and is convinced that something, something, she doesn’t know what, but something in her nightmares can do bad things.

And so she attempts to stay awake and, you know- Mm-hmm … uh, tries to warn everybody and all. There are tons of direct parallels. I mean, it, it’s, it’s ultimately different I suppose, but I feel like A Nightmare on Elm Street takes this concept and nails it. Crystallizes 

Todd: it, really. Yeah. Yeah. Crystallizes it into something you can hold and you can see and you can identify.

Uh-huh. Whereas this keeps things very nebulous. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And, uh, even with the ending as well, it’s just kind of a big WTF moment, which apparently wasn’t part of the original script. Apparently the ending that we see Was shot after photography had ended. They decided they wanted to change the ending, which just serves to confuse it all a little bit, but also adds an interesting element to the whole movie that makes it…

Again, I think they were going for something a little headier here, but by the end of it, it, it, none of it quite landed as hard as it should have. Whereas you take Freddy, Freddy is the embodiment of what these guys are kind of hinting at. 

Craig: Yeah. Well, and I don’t know who, I don’t know if it was the director or who it w- the writer.

I, I don’t know, but I, I read that they wanted to keep it a little bit more nebulous. Yeah. Like, they, it, it- 

Todd: Intentionally … 

Craig: the studio, I get it, you know, from a studio perspective, they wanted to see something. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: They wanted the audience to see something, and so there’s, I, I guess they kind of compromised, and I, I, I think that in the compromise it just muddies things for like- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: go one way all the way or go all the way the other way. That kind of compromise just kinda- 

Todd: It leaves it a little unsatisfying … 

Craig: it, it doesn’t really work. Yeah, right. 

Todd: Well, we should just dive into it then- Sure … from the beginning because it actually starts out, you can, uh, it’s almost bookended in a way It starts out with this beautiful music.

And again, this is something I really like about this year. You know, it feels like ’81, ’82, we were still getting these orchestral scores- Yeah … some of which are really better than the movie itself on, in, in many cases. Right. Just, like, how did the movie deserve this gorgeous score? And this was sort of the last couple years of that, because shortly after this, everything goes to synth, and then synth becomes the language of ’80s slashers and ’80s horror in general.

And this is kind of the tail end of that with the beautiful… But we get this beautiful orchestral score. We got this ticking clock, this dramatic music, this superimposed image of this woman who, who looks to be staring off into space and troubled by something as she walks towards a doorway that’s open a crack, and the light from the doorway’s shining on her face.

But then, like, a- another doorway seems to blast open, and there’s, uh, clearly some kind of demonic figure and shadow that is standing there with the wind blowing behind it and the light streaming in from behind it. And then we’re back at her face, and she seems terrified, but then cuts back, and we’re just seeing her again looking through just this normal doorway, like she’s in the basement trying to get out, or she’s looking into a basement wondering what’s down there.

Tons of questions. And then from behind her, these hands come around and grab her across the face and the throat. 

Craig: Monstrous hands. Yeah. 

Todd: Big, monstrous, like, demonic hands with long fingernails and l- and hairy and long fingers. And again, uh, what you said earlier about things going on just a beat or two too long, this is all really impressive.

There’s a little blood trickling down from behind it and everything. Until the last, like, two seconds of the final shot when you can clearly see a male arm. Like, these hands are just gloves. 

Craig: Gloves. 

Todd: Did you catch that? It- 

Craig: No … 

Todd: it’s, like, two seconds, but if you’re paying attention, as he pulls her into the shadows, it, it’s more of a medium shot, and God, they, they really fucked that up.

And I was like, “Oh, is this… This is the kind of movie we’re getting into.” And of course, the woman is dreaming, so she springs up out of bed, and we see that she’s in this beautiful ’80s style, o- I would almost say fancy bedroom. And she’s talking to her boyfriend. She’s had this nightmare again. But the shots don’t match up.

The shot of her sitting there kind of looking off to the side of the bed doesn’t match up with the shots towards him, which are Straight up- Mm-hmm … onto his face. Like, he’s looking straight down, like he’s over her. And the room isn’t that same room at all. 

Craig: I didn’t even notice. 

Todd: It looks like a cabin, the wood paneling.

It… There’s a skylight behind him. There’s, like, some bookshelf way up high by the ceiling. And then it flips back, and she’s in this room with these white walls and, you know, pink frilly things and, and, and stuff like that. I was like, “Oh my God, this is the kind of movie we’re getting into.” Just when things like this so easily slip by, you know what happened, right?

Oh, they’ve screwed up that shot. You know, they had to go back and reshoot it, but they couldn’t get the location again or, or they just had to shoot it quickly, so then they stuck in this other one, right? 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: However, I now think that might have actually been a little intentional. Now, maybe they didn’t mean for us to notice that the two shots didn’t match, but the way that he’s standing, and behind him is this skylight kind of up in the ceiling with an opening and everything, it seems to foreshadow his ultimate death that comes later on.

Craig: I hadn’t thought of that, but you’re right. 

Todd: So I don’t know if that was even more clever for its own good, like they really tried to do this kind of psychological trick on us, but they certainly intentionally tried to foreshadow this. Because there are a couple other instances later, pretty much each of the characters who die, and there are only three who die- 

Craig: There are really only kind of four in the whole movie.

Todd: Yeah. There’s technically a fourth guy who dies, but three of this group of the- of four who die, which is disappointing, by the way. All of their deaths are foreshadowed by something that happens a little earlier, and that’s, that’s a nice little touch. That’s why I say they, they were- Yeah … aiming for something artistic here.

Craig: I like that, particularly when it’s subtle and you’re more likely to pick up on it the second time around, and I, I think that this falls into that category. It’s not so obvious. 

Todd: No, not at all. 

Craig: And I, I guess she’s a painter, and she, I… is, is stressing out or something ’cause she’s got a big show coming up, and so her boyfriend, husband, I don’t know, David, thinks she needs a vacation.

So they’re gonna go on vacation to this island with her brother, Eric, and his wife, Brooke. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And they all fly out on to this island, like, in a Cessna, like, in a little seaplane. Their pilot is Mr. Marsh, who for all intents and purposes is the creepy gas station guy- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: of the 

Todd: movie. He really is. 

Craig: He even comes…

Yeah, he e- like, he’s creepy gas station guy in this moment ’cause Kay gets out and, like, she’s… Throughout my notes throughout, I’m like, “Kay’s acting weird again.” Like, she’s always acting weird. She’s- Oh, 

Todd: yeah. She’s off on another planet, yeah. 

Craig: The whole time. Like, there’s not a scene in the movie where she’s j- normal and fun.

Mm-hmm. Like, she is just always space cadet out there all the time. She gets off the plane. She’s 

Todd: like… I feel like 

Clip: I’ve been here before You ain’t the first I heard say that, and you won’t be the last. This island is the kind of place folks dream about

Todd: Said in a very dour, straight face that just looks pissed. They even comment on how creepy he is, right? And then when they look… As they’re talking about how creepy he is, he’s right there in the background in the window of the plane, like, looking back and being creepy. 

Craig: Staring at them. 

Todd: Yeah. God. It’s so great.

Craig: Yeah. And then they walk through that stone fort, which is really cool. I mean, it, it looks like, uh, at one point it was probably big and, and fortified, but it looks like it’s crumbled and, and all the big blocks of it are kind of just s- sticking up out of the ground. It’s a, a really cool set piece that- Yeah

like, that they don’t come back to. And then they pass that old dilapidated theater that we mentioned before, but of course Kay has to stand and look at it l- like a weirdo, and David comes up to her and she’s like, “I recognize this building.” “From where?” “From my painting. I painted it.” He’s like, “Uh, no, you just painted a building that looks like it.

Like- … get over it.” He’s very dismissive of her throughout. 

Todd: He 

Craig: is. Which is interesting in that, like, I can understand it, except for the fact that she’s always so weird. Like, there’s clearly something going on with her. Like- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: come on. 

Todd: He should be more concerned. 

Craig: For sure. For sure. 

Todd: Well, she’s been having dreams, and she’s been taking pills apparently and all that, so I mean, this could be a fairly new occurrence and whatnot, but- 

Craig: I suppose.

Todd: Yeah. As they’re walking, by the way, you know, they- they’re, they’re walking past that old theater, as you said, and there’s this one point where Brooke, as they’re coming over the crest of a hill, goes, “Ugh, I’m dying, Eric. I don’t think I’m going to make it.” N- And Eric goes, “Well, we just passed this boathouse, so we’re almost there.”

That also foreshadows her eventual death, which I thought was kind of- Yep … cute as well. 

Craig: Yeah, no, I never would’ve caught those things, but it’s true. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: I guess it, it would’ve been right about where they were. Yeah, that’s funny. And then they get to this big seaside home, and Brooke is a little irritated ’cause it looks dilapidated from the outside, but when they get inside, it’s gorgeous.

Not only is it a beautiful home, but it- it’s- Pristine a- a- and clean 

Todd: And stocked 

Craig: full 

Todd: of good- 

Craig: The kitchen is fully stocked 

Todd: Yeah. You open that fridge, you can’t even put anything new in it. It’s totally full. 

Craig: I know. There’s fresh fruit in there. Like, I don’t know who stocked all this for him. The, the liquor cabinet’s stocked.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: It looks like they could have a nice place, but- This 

Todd: is like Airbnb before Airbnb. Right. 

Craig: Right. So… Oh. But of course, Kay’s acting weird and notices some clock on the mantelpiece, which is a clock from the opening dream that we didn’t mention before. Mm-hmm. And then creepy Marsh, I guess, came back to give the whole creepy gas station attendant monologue.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: Like- 

Clip: I came back to warn you. Warn us about what? Weather report from the Coast Guard says there’s a storm moving up from the Gulf. They’re real unpredictable this time of year. Weather looks okay to me. Things ain’t always what they appear to be. I used to live on this island, know what a storm can do.

It’ll come at you from all sides, make it impossible for me to land a plane. Well, I, um, I think we’ll take our chances. Suit yourself Don’t say I didn’t warn 

Todd: you We’ve also learned, by the way, that there is no phone service on the island. I think he told them that as well, or somebody else did earlier.

Right. So, you know, they’re like, “Okay, thank you. Goodbye,” and he leaves. So our setup: holiday on an island cabin, a isolated island, supposedly nobody else is around on the island, no phone service, and there’s gonna be a big storm so the plane’s not gonna be able to come over and get them. Very, very typical.

Craig: Yeah, but it’s a little atypical in that it’s not just a bunch of 20-something assholes. Yes. I mean, these are- 

Todd: Yes … 

Craig: these are two, not mature, uh, you know, they’re probably in their 30s, maybe early 30s, mid-30s I would guess, but it’s two married couples, which is a completely different dynamic. And, and they’re friends and family.

Eric and, uh, Kay are brother and sister, so- 

Todd: Yeah. That was refreshing … it’s 

Craig: a little bit different. It is refreshing. 

Todd: I actually wrote that down. It’s nice to see a slasher that’s, like, adults instead of teenagers that are actually adults playing teenagers. 

Craig: Right. And I like those movies too, and I like, you know, it’s cathartic to see young, sexy assholes get chopped up.

I, I like that every once in a while, but- As 

Todd: a, as a teacher?

Craig: But, uh- That’s good … but, uh, this was different and I appreciated that. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Um, so, and then, so then we get, I guess, the first kill. Is that right? Yeah. And it’s just some rando. That, that’s my biggest complaint about this is that though these kills aren’t entirely… It’s not that they aren’t interesting or unique in some way, but just the way that they’re executed in terms of the way that the killer is presented is so typical.

Like, it’s just, you know, a shadowy figure. We, we typically really only see the shadow of the figure. I don’t think we often even see the person thems- or, or thing itself. 

Todd: No, or hands or anything. 

Craig: No. It’s just we see shadows creeping up and we see their POV, and then we see the murder happen up close, but there’s really no indication of motive or any suggestion of who this entity might be.

Mm-hmm. And I, I feel like that’s somewhat of a weakness. Uh, that left me frustrated. And even if I… I don’t know. I mean, I guess they kinda try to start to explain it later on, but this guy, basically, Wally the fisherman, who we’ve never seen before and we’ll never see again, because he dies- … he’s just sitting there gutting his fish- 

Todd: Talking to himself

Craig: talking to himself and he’s like, “Oh, Wally, you’re hearing things that aren’t there. And before you know it, you’ll be seeing things that aren’t there.” And then his shadow sneaks up behind him, hits him over the head with an oar and the end. He’s, he’s dead. 

Todd: Yeah. Uh, I love that he says, “What you need is a companion, a woman, or maybe just a dog.”

Craig: And then he, like, smiles and nods to himself. 

Todd: Yeah. “

Craig: Yeah, probably a dog.” 

Todd: Maybe, maybe in a m- in a movie with a bigger budget, Wally would’ve been a character established with a dog, you know? Yeah. Think, think about that. I was thinking of Piranha, right? Wasn’t that that guy with that dog- Yeah, yeah … in 

Craig: Piranha?

It, it w- yeah. Ugh. 

Todd: Typical character, but, uh, yeah. But s- but this is clearly just inserted to give us something. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Anything. And I, I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t originally in the script, and some producer was watching the movie and was like, “Guys, we’ve gotta throw this in there.” 

Craig: Well, and it’s a good thing they did, because nothing else happens for a long time.

Yes. Like, there’s a completely unnecessary beach thing where, s- beach scene where Kay is acting weird. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Then Kay and Brooke have a conversation in the kitchen while they’re cooking dinner that I don’t think anything came of. 

Todd: No. 

Craig: And then- 

Todd: Eric’s been getting a flare gun from the basement, and he just casually tosses off, “You know this place has an elevator, huh?”

Craig: Right. 

Todd: I’m still curious about the elevator. I mean- 

Craig: I have no idea what was going on there … 

Todd: we do see the bottom of an elevator, but I have no idea where it goes to. Second floor, third floor, presumably? 

Craig: I don’t know. I 

Todd: don’t know. 

Craig: It was weird. And, and so then they have their dinner that the women prepared outdoors at night, right?

And, and this is when they have a conversation, but, like, basically Eric tells Kay that her new painting style sucks. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That it’s too surreal, and she’s like, “I paint what I see.” And David’s like, “She paints what she dreams.” And like, who cares? Like- … she paints, like- Whatever … landscapes. Like, who cares? She 

Todd: can paint whatever the hell she wants from wherever she gets inspiration.

Craig: Well, I gue- I guess Eric is saying… Well, basically what he says is, “You were on a really good streak just painting these boring landscapes, and now you’re getting all surrea- surreal and shit, and people don’t wanna buy your stuff, and, like, shape up.” And, and the fact that he’s… Like, if this was just a friend, like, if this was just her girlfriend’s friend, I would think, “What an asshole.

Keep it to yourself,” but it is her brother. I think you get a little bit of- Yeah … license as siblings to be a little bit more upfront with people. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s true. E- everyone’s just privately fretting over her, you know? Even the other couple, Eric and Brooke, when they’re alone in bed, they’re talking about her.

And Kay tells Eric that she’s scared her dreams will take over real life. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: All of this is really ham-fisted. I mean, we get it. We, we’ve gotten it. Kay is melodramatically distant and troubled. Everybody’s troubled for her, and all they’re talking about is her dreams and how the dreams… Her artwork’s even gotten bad now that her, she, she’s dreaming.

When she says she’s scared the dreams are gonna take over her real life, the response is, “Oh, it’s just one of those demons that surface every once in a while. We all have them.” And I’m thinking, “Okay, there’s a pointed line right there.” Yeah. ‘Cause we’ve seen a demon. 

Craig: Yeah, but, but kind of. Uh… 

Todd: The vision of a demon in the beginning.

Craig: Right. That’s it. But David kind of, I mean, i- in saying that, basically what he’s saying to her is he thinks that she’s lose, you know, “You’re losing it. Pull it together.” 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But that doesn’t stop them then from going to their sex den and banging. 

Todd: Yeah, for quite a while. This is really, again, a little too long.

Craig: Yeah, way too long, especially since it was not really a sex scene. It was, like her… There are so many shots of her- … just laying on her back in this bed with, like, her hair sprawled out on the pillow, sometimes, like, one arm or both arms above her head in, like, this, you know, Gothic painting type way. And here, like, they’re laying in the bed and it’s all lit by firelight and stuff.

And it’s supposed to be, I think, like, this intimate, sexy scene, and it almost looks like he’s just molesting her corpse. Like, he’s just kind of- 

Todd: I was trying to figure out … 

Craig: rubbing his face all over her face. 

Todd: I, I couldn’t figure out what he was kissing. 

Craig: It wasn’t her mouth. 

Todd: It wasn’t her boobs. I mean, he wasn’t f- down far enough or, like…

I just didn’t know what was going on here except he’s just rubbing his face all over her. Yeah. 

Craig: And he wasn’t on top of her. Like, he was, like, snuggled up next to her. Like, I guess he could have been grinding on her thigh or something, which that’s fine. Oh. Good times, but- 

Todd: It just wasn’t very well-directed Right, 

Craig: and 

Todd: it 

Craig: went on for so long.

Cut away. Oh, God. We don’t need to see that.

Ugh, God You 

Todd: know? But it’s very soap opera-like, isn’t it? ‘Cause there’s- 

Craig: It is. A lot of it, a lot of the whole movie, it, it feels like a soap opera, really … 

Todd: storms and the windows. Rain’s going against the window and we get a shot through the window from the outside. And, and I thought for a minute, oh, this is like our killer POV.

No, they just gotta show this from a sixth angle, the same boring sex scene. 

Craig: Right. There’s also a lot of r- really close shots on, on faces and, and reactions and, and dialogue scenes and stuff, and that felt very soap opera, too. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But after they bang, David hears a bump in the night and, and for about the next 10 minutes, he wanders around the house.

Ugh. 

Todd: Oh, 

Craig: my God. Yeah, forever. He finally ends up- 

Todd: It takes forever. He 

Craig: finally ends up, I guess, in the cellar. I don’t know. And I didn’t even really understand what was happening here. 

Todd: No, I didn’t, either. 

Craig: It seems to me like it was a cellar door, like one that opens from the outside and the two doors open and you walk down the stairs into the cellar, except he’s in the cellar- Mm-hmm

so he’s opening it from the inside, so he’s opening it up. And it seemed like it was, like, p- kind of partially ajar, so the water was leaking in and that was making noise, so he pulled it back down and closed it. But after he turns around, turns his back, he hears a loud noise and he turns around and one of the doors is open again.

So he goes and sticks his head up in there, doesn’t see anything, but then as he’s pulling back down, the door closes so that it clamps his neck right between. And he’s standing on a ladder, but in the commotion, the ladder tips over, and so he’s just dangling there, and it’s, like, cutting into his neck, and his eyeballs are bleeding and stuff.

He dies, and then something or somebody pulls his body back up. Now, later on when they go looking for him, she talks about looking for him at the elevator. Was that the elevator? 

Todd: I think it’s supposed to be the elevator. 

Craig: What the fuck kind of elevator is that? 

Todd: I have no idea. I, I, I am, honestly am still trying to figure that out.

Where did, how would that trapdoor… Is it the top of the- 

Craig: Freight elevator or something? I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah, I don’t know. It, it was weird. I, I think this is supposed to be an open elevator shaft, but it’s not very well-established. And then for the rest of the movie, you know, when he said, “Oh, there’s even an elevator in here,” I thought, “Okay, cool.

We’re gonna get… Like, that’s gonna be a, some kind of factor. At least we’re gonna get a scene at the elevator.” I mean, this is interesting. There’s this house on the beach, but it’s got an elevator that presumably goes through three floors. That’s escape routes. That’s, you could fall down the shaft. That’s, you know, board up the elevator, you know?

Mm-hmm. But this is it. This is apparently the elevator, just this moment in this place. Because, uh, then later they get up and, uh, and he’s missing, and for a while they don’t give a shit. 

Craig: No. 

Todd: Kay wakes up to a bad dream. 

Craig: Yeah, except that’s gross, too, because she wa- We don’t know it’s a dream at first, but she wakes up And she kinda turns over, and it looks like David’s in bed with her except for his face looks kinda gnarly, like dead.

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And then she rolls over and starts kissing him, and his eyes open, but then blood starts flowing out of his eyes, and she notices blood on her mouth. And she sits up, and she pulls the blanket down, and it’s just his decapitated head. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And then she, then she wakes up and starts screaming, which happens every time she wakes up.

A 

Todd: lot. Yeah, she d- this woman doesn’t wake up peacefully. 

Craig: Yeah, and you’re right. At first, at first they’re like, “Oh, I’m sure he just got up before you and went for a walk on the beach. It’s no big deal.” And she’s like, “But no, I saw what happened. I know exactly what happened.” And yet they look around elsewhere for a while before they finally get to the elevator, and she’s like, “I know he died here.

I saw it.” Did ya? ‘Cause I didn’t see you see it, but- 

Todd: I didn’t see you see it, 

Craig: yeah. But, but there’s, there’s nobody there. And Eric- 

Todd: It’s kind of a cool moment … 

Craig: yeah, he, he pops his head up through the door, and he, like, if you’re him, you know, you, he, he pushes up the r- left side of the door and kinda pops his head out, and he looks around and he doesn’t see anything.

But the camera is shooting- I can’t describe it. Anyway- From- The, the point is- From 

Todd: the room he’s looking into, 

Craig: yeah. Mm-hmm … from the room he’s looking into. W- when he lowers the door, you see the blood on the other side. Yeah. It was just that he was in the wrong position to see it. So it does appear that this isn’t just in her mind.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Something really is happening, but we don’t know what is happening. There was one little red herring that I kind of appreciated. The night that David dies, Brooke also wakes up early in the morning to find that Eric is gone, and she can’t- Mm-hmm … she looks around and can’t find him for a while, but she eventually does find him, and he’s coming in from the outside.

And she’s like, “What were you doing?” He’s all wet, and he says, “The storm windows were banging all night. I was fixing the storm windows.” And I thought that was a good red herring, ’cause I, I- Yeah … I really thought, “Oh, he was MIA when David was killed. There’s a nice lead for me to hold onto.” 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Doesn’t go anywhere, but I appreciated the moment.

Todd: Well, that’s part of the problem with this really small cast, right? Is that everyone is basically n- except for that one moment, nobody’s suspect. If they’re trying to make a mystery out of this, who’s doing the killing, and we’re trying to figure out who’s doing the killing, it’s either the pilot, who I think we figure out pretty early on, like, that would be stupid if it was him.

It’s just too obvious. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Or it’s just some other party that we’re not aware of yet- Right … that’s on the island doing it, which is a little unsatisfying when they’re trying to make a mystery out of it. 

Craig: Or it’s one of them. And without, without spoiling it, one of the last movies that we recently did, probably the last slasher that we did, it seemed like it must be one of them, and ultimately it was.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Is that, is that, is that gonna be the case here? Like, yeah, I understand what you’re saying because it’s either got to be one of them or the pilot, and all of those just seem easy. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But if it’s somebody or something that we’ve never seen, that seems cheap. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Don’t bring in some rando in the end with some loony explanation like, “Oh, your dad cheated on me,” or I, I don’t know, something, you know- Yeah.

whatever. 

Todd: Right. Yeah. 

Craig: So yeah. 

Todd: You ruined my life. 

Craig: You ruined my life. Person I’ve never met before or whatever. Oh, God. Yeah, but- 

Todd: Well, they, they do the ridiculous thing that often happens in these movies, is there’s a person missing all day long, but the, nobody’s terribly concerned about it. In fact, Brooke is even reassuring Kay.

It’s nighttime, right? They’re sitting by the fire, and Kay is still disturbed, and Brooke’s like- 

Clip: You okay?

Okay, there’s nothing to worry about David’s out there somewhere. I’ll bet he just stumbled on something really interesting and got so involved he probably just lost his way. 

Todd: Was so, okay, but, like, that means he’s lost. Like, you should probably be more worried about finding him. 

Craig: That’s, I know, that’s-

that’s so reassuring, too. Like, 

Todd: he’s out there somewhere. Well, yeah- Duh … probably. 

Craig: Like, he’s not here. 

Todd: He’s not here.

Captain Obvious. Oh. 

Craig: But yeah, they don’t look for him all day, and then he’s gone all night, and so then finally they’re like, “Well, I guess we should look for him.” Better 

Todd: look. And then- Let’s all split 

Craig: up … let’s all split up and walk around different parts of the island for another 10 minutes. 

Todd: Half an hour.

God. 

Craig: Oh my God. 

Todd: Yeah, that was, felt like forever. 

Craig: And Kay is, she goes to the theater, and we see her looking around the theater for a long time. She doesn’t find anything. Then we cut back to the other two who are looking around in other places for a long time. They don’t find anything. Then we go back to Kay in the theater.

Todd: Who seems to be investigating the theater for a second time- Uh-huh … or the first time ever. Like, what, why is she suddenly back out in the audience g- going back up on stage again? 

Craig: I don’t know. 

Todd: The first time she, she went on stage, she actually went up some stairs, like, almost like she was going up to the, to the flies or something.

Mm-hmm. And then when it cuts back to her, she’s back in… And so I thought, what are they doing here? Is this itself a hint? Because we’re still wondering, deep down inside, if Kay isn’t somehow responsible for what’s going on. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: The other, a thing that’s going through your head, and then it’s later explicitly implied by Eric, is Kay in her dreams doing something?

Craig: Well, yeah, and it’s als- well, okay, so, uh, on that second trip in there, she does find his body hanging upside down- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: um, and, and mutilated. 

Todd: Headless, yeah. 

Craig: Do the others see his body, or do they… Do they even believe her? I don’t even remember. 

Todd: They all come running in, because now it gets real for them. It kind of cuts from the, David’s headless body swinging there to Eric talking to Brooke about Kay’s dreams.

He’s, like, loading up his flare gun and all that. Now it’s like, “We gotta get off of here.” He, he tells her a story about when they were kids. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: He said that Kay, uh, when she was a little girl, f- as a birthday present, got a cat from her parents or something, and they loved the cat, and then later, suddenly the cat was missing and they didn’t know where the cat was, and they found the cat was, what?

In the freezer? In 

Craig: the freezer. 

Todd: And Kay had dreamed that the cat was in danger 

Craig: or something like that. Well, Kay, y- yeah, they, they a- they asked Kay about it and she said that something in her dreams did it. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: So I think that what Eric is suggesting is that she’s a little cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and always has been.

Todd: He is, but then he immediately contradicts himself, because Brooke goes, “Well, then what, you know, Kay is the…” G- g- then K- you know, whatever. And, and Eric goes, “No, what killed him was not a nightmare.” Right. “It was something very real.” So I’m like, “Well, where is he even going with this then?” Like, what is he even thinking?

Craig: Well, I don’t remember. It’s right around this part. I, I think Kay is pleading with them to believe her and saying, you know, she can’t go to sleep and blah blah blah. But she says that something has been using her to do bad things through her dreams, and it will keep doing them through her until it no longer needs her.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: S- I don’t really know what that means. 

Todd: She explains what Eric kinda did, but she’s going this direction with it, saying that somehow that… Yeah. And, and she says, “Queen something, queen something.” And they end up giving her some drugs to make her sleep, which ab- absolutely upsets her. 

Craig: Well, the… And this is just like Nightmare on Elm Street 2.

Todd: Exactly. 

Craig: The- Exactly … the parents drug the… You know, when the kids are trying not to sleep and the parents think they’re nuts, they, you know, they always drug them. 

Todd: And look, in recounting this, it sounds like a lot of stuff is happening, but we’re an hour into this hour and a half movie. 

Craig: And there’s not much left.

Todd: There’s not much left, and it has taken us so long to get to this point that it just feels… I was just like, “Come on, let’s get moving here.” Like, “All right, the guy’s dead. Now things are finally gonna move.” 

Craig: And they, and they do, but they just- 

Todd: They do from here … 

Craig: and they, like, things happen, but it’s just paced slowly.

Like, the scenes are unnecessarily long. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Eric thinks, because he doesn’t believe that it can be something from a dream, he thinks that it must be a person. He’s like, “Well, it’s just us here. The only other person we’ve even seen is Marsh.” And Brooke’s like, “Yeah, well, he left.” And, and Eric’s like, “Did he?

Did he?” “Did we, did we actually see him leave?” 

Todd: Well, we don’t know. Yeah. 

Craig: So, you know, against, uh, Brooke’s protests, he goes out to the boathouse for some reason. 

Todd: Flares. He wants to find more flares. 

Craig: Okay, fine. And somebody’s watching him, and he does find a couple of flares. But then he’s just standing out on the dock, and he, like, bumps into a fishing pole that’s just, like, been set up on the dock or whatever, and then he turns away from it.

And all of a sudden, he’s in a Hellraiser movie- … where all of these fishing hooks on a bunch of different lines simultaneously somehow hook him in the face and all over his body and drag him off to sea. That was so weird. 

Todd: Yeah. It just… Where did this come from? It looked like it came from above, first of all.

Dropped down from the sky, hooked around him. Again, like you say, we don’t see any- Uh-uh … person or figure behind this. We just see these lines and him get pulled away. And when you think about it, it makes no logical sense. The physics of this doesn’t work. He gets dragged off the dock and across the beach, and then finally into the water and into the darkness.

Like, whatever is dragging him is so far off into the distance that it’s just blackness out there, and we can’t see it. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: At this point, I’m thinking, “Okay, come on. Don’t ask me to believe-” believe this is an actual person doing this because it’s impossible. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: By the way, his, his death was foretold by a, a nick.

W- earlier in the movie he was chatting with Brooke before they even left on the plane, and he, uh, was shaving his neck and he nicked himself in the neck. 

Craig: Oh, that’s, that’s funny. It’s funny now to know that that was foreshadowing because I thought that it was hilarious that when he nicked his neck, it, the music got very ominous.

Yeah. And I was like, “Oh my God, he just cut himself shaving,” like- So 

Todd: sinister … “

Craig: I do that every day. Calm down.” I was thinking that too. 

Todd: Well, to be fair, the mo- the music does a lot of heavy lifting throughout this film. 

Craig: It does. 

Todd: All these scenes of them just prowling around, like him prowling around this boathouse is another 10 minutes, and the music just wants you to think there’s danger around the corner just a second away the whole time, and without that you’d definitely be bored to tears.

Craig: Well, right. It, it, well, and then it moves pretty quickly. I mean, his, his wife, Brooke, is worried about him so she goes out looking for him, so she goes out into the boathouse too. She is looking around the boathouse and she notices the name of the boat, like written on the boat, says Isle of something, and then she like dusts off the rest of it.

Queen. Isle of Queen. And she’s like, “Queen, queen something.” I still t- like, I know that Kay had said something about queen something earlier, but I- it felt like a very tenuous connection. I mean, it- Yeah … at least I guess for Brooke it kind of validated what Kay had been saying, which she had been tempted to believe anyway.

And so then she’s scared, and so she looks over towards the door and there’s a t- um, just a pitchfork peeking around the door. Floating. Just 

Todd: like- Pitchfork as character- Yeah. … in this movie. Almost, like, puppeteered. 

Craig: And then in the slowest chase scene I’ve ever seen, because first of all, it only spans about 10 feet.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But over the next two minutes she runs about six feet away. She gets tangled up in a fishing net for a couple of good minutes. And then she takes another 30 seconds to get to the window. It’s a huge window with, like, three wooden slats on it and, like, six giant panes. 

Todd: Uh-huh. 

Craig: And she very easily could have pulled down one of those boards and gone through any one of those panes.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But she feels it necessary to pull down all three boards, fi- take, use one of the boards to bash out the entire thing. Meanwhile, this guy is right behind her, and so she just- 

Todd: Slowly. 

Craig: Yes. This, 

Todd: I think this thing was, could’ve been strapped to a turtle. 

Craig: Oh my God. That’s how slow this is coming after her.

It’s so slow. She is taking so long, like- 

Todd: I was just like, “Girl, just go around the boat.” 

Craig: Right, and, and- “

Todd: Just go around the boat.” 

Craig: Or have you never seen, like, Texas Chainsaw? Like, just jump through that bitch, like for- Jump through the window … forget about the glass. My God. But so she gets up into the frame of the window and then, you know, she gets a startled look on her face and you see the tines of the pitchfork come through.

Todd: Oh, this was fantastic though. 

Craig: It looked really good. 

Todd: It did, like you see… It wasn’t like cut and there are tines in her. You saw the tines come through her chest and then retreat back in. Only the prowler- has a better pitchforking scene than this one. This is, this is like number two in my book, and the only thing that makes The Prowler better is the pitchfork actually went into, like, a, a topless- Like, like there was no clothing or anything obscuring- 

Craig: Right

Todd: the, the penetration. God, it sounds so sexual when I say it. And, and so I was really im- I was like, “Okay, good. That was, that was really impressive for this film. I was not expecting to see an effect that good.” 

Craig: Well, and I would say the effects are pretty good throughout. 

Todd: They’re not bad. 

Craig: They’re not bad. Yeah.

Eh. I mean, there was… The one that bothered me the most was when the severed head was crying blood, and you could clearly tell where the duct was- Mm … and it was not near enough to his eye. The eye. Right. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: But yeah, so and okay, so that all happens at night. Kay wakes up in the morning. She goes down near the boathouse, sees Eric’s body floating in the water, immediately then almost trips over Brooke’s body on the beach.

Todd: It’s so funny ’cause it’s that classic, uh, the la- final girl discovers all the bodies at once- 

Craig: Yeah, but there’s only two … except you only have two 

Todd: bodies to discover. Yeah. 

Craig: I know. So she runs back to the house, and she shutters all the windows, and she barricades all the doors. And this was another scene I was like, “I don’t need to see her move every piece of furniture to barricade every door.”

Oh, my God. I get it. 

Todd: She closed every window. We did not need to see this happen- 

Craig: I- … every 

Todd: step of the way … 

Craig: get it. And, and- I, 

Todd: at this point, I just felt they were really pressing for time. I suppose. They were really just trying to stretch out the time. 

Craig: And she’s, she’s trying to stay awake, and she’s… Uh, the first thing she does to try to stay awake is read what sounds like one of the most boring books I, I’ve- Like, that would put me to sleep.

Then she- Well, 

Todd: she’s got a cup of coffee 

Craig: She makes herself some coffee. She’s smoking cigarettes. Uh-huh. Eventually she burns herself with the cigarette, but I, it, it almost appears like the ecstasy of the burn puts her to sleep because- 

Todd: You’re right. 

Craig: Then she’s asleep, and the generator goes out, and there’s something trying to come in and rattling the door and stuff, and she grabs a big knife.

And at this point, she’s, like, peering through slats, and it’s entirely reminiscent of the opening scene. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: It’s like she’s watching through a slatted door, and the lights are sl- you know, slat- m- making slats across her face. 

Todd: And that clock is ticking- And the clock is ticking … and the pendulum’s going.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And she closes her eyes, and there’s a banging window that wakes her up. And at this point I’m like, “Okay, is she dreaming now? Has she fallen asleep?” Well, yeah. You know, I’m thinking that- That whole Freddy thing, you know? I’m thinking, did she actually fall asleep and, and they’re faking us out here?

Craig: Yeah. I, I, I think she c- that could’ve been the moment that she fell asleep or it could’ve been right after she burned herself. I don’t even know that it necessarily matters, but- Yeah … at some point presumably she did. And, and, again, I don’t know if the suggestion is that she is asleep and dreaming or just the fact that she went to sleep released the beast?

Like, I don’t know what that means. Yeah. 

Todd: I’m not sure either. 

Craig: The, she, she moves to in front of the fridge. She’s used the, the refrigerator to, to block a door, and then all of a sudden the refrigerator starts getting shoved from the other side, and somebody or something reaches over the top and she stabs it in the hand, and it sure sounds like a dude to me.

Like, it goes, “Ow!” Like a… I mean, like if that’s a monster, that’s a pretty lame- 

Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: sound for a monster. 

Todd: Well, it, it would also be the first time we’ve ever seen a limb or anything. I mean, even when the pitchfork was coming after that girl, we didn’t see what was holding the pitchfork. We didn’t even see hands around it.

Craig: No. 

Todd: It just looks like a floating pitchfork in a way. So this would be the first time that we’ve ever seen anything physical. 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: And so immediately I was suspect. I was like, “Well, that’s not it. That’s probably the, the, the pilot.” 

Craig: Well, I didn’t know, um, because she runs and she, like, trips on the staircase, and whatever it is that’s pursuing her gets through and runs towards her and we kind of vaguely see it in silhouette, and she shoots it with a flare, and when the flare lights up we see that it’s a man.

Now, it, it had to… It was the pilot, right? There’s nobody else it could’ve been. Yeah. I, I couldn’t tell. 

Todd: It was. We see a couple close-up shots on his face as the fire goes. 

Craig: Yeah. I just didn’t recogn- I didn’t know if it was the same guy. I assumed so, but because she shot him with the flare, he falls over and the whole house catches on fire.

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: So she runs up the stairs and is, like, running through an attic or something and she gets to a door or a window and it bursts open, and there’s a giant scary monster that we’ve never seen before. 

Todd: Well, we saw it in the beginning. 

Craig: Kind of. The very beginning. Kind of. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. Not in this detail, but yeah.

It’s a callback to that original, the, the thing that opened up over the credits, for sure, yeah. 

Craig: For sure. And, and it’s, you know, we don’t see it in its entirety. It’s kind of from mid, midsection up, and, and we definitely see its face and its… Oh gosh, it’s got giant long pointed teeth and it’s all kind of insect-like maybe, and it- Looks pretty good

slimy and gross. It looks fine. I think it was smart not to show it to us for very long. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: But anyway, she screams and it, it cuts to a shot of the house outside and it’s just her screaming and screaming and screaming, and then you hear somebody say, “Kay, wake up, wake up.” A little girl with red hair, obviously Kay, wakes up.

And her mother and father are standing over her and say, “Oh, no. Did you have a bad dream again? Hold on. Let us get your brother in here. We want him to be here for this.” And again, it’s, it’s very similar to that shot from the beginning where she’s laying in bed and the, the other people who are standing above her are shot almost from her perspective.

Yeah. So we’re looking up at them. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And the brother, presumably Eric, comes in. I mean, I think s- somebody even says his name, so we know it’s him. Yep. And the dad says, “Happy birthday, daugh-” or, “Merry Christmas” or something, and pulls out this kitten from behind his back and goes to hand it to her, and it cuts back to the little girl, who just looks horrified like, “Oh, no.”

Clip: Not again. 

Craig: Not again. 

Todd: Freeze frame 

Craig: Freeze 

Todd: frames Credits 

Craig: Right. So I don’t know what to make of it. Like, is this whole thing, was the whole movie just a recurring nightmare of a young girl? Or is this some sort of loop that this woman is in? And is it a supernatural loop, a psychological loop? Like- 

Todd: Right … 

Craig: I don’t really get it, but I don’t so much mind the ambiguity.

I, I thought the- Yeah … I thought that the end was actually kind of clever. I, I think that I like it more than if it had just- 

Todd: Ended with her in the house … 

Craig: see, right. See the monster, hear the screaming from outside, see the house from the outside, credits. That would’ve been okay. This, I think, throws a little spin on it.

And because I don’t find the movie to be all that great anyway, tacking this little spin on it at least gives it a little bit more intrigue. 

Todd: Elevates it a little bit. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. It does elevate it a little bit, and I agree with you there. And once again, I, I gotta go back to the inspiration. Somebody had to be…

Maybe Robert Shaye was watching this when he made, you know, Wes Craven tack that little dream ending onto the first Nightmare on Elm Street. Oh, maybe. You know, the, the parallels are just so close here. You’ve got this supposed dream demon- 

Craig: Mm-hmm … 

Todd: I guess. What else has killed these people? If this all actually happened, these people really did die, and there’s no explanation as to who it could’ve been except for her dreams and this demon that apparently manifests at the end.

So if we take it all literally, then yeah, her dream demon came out and, and murdered them all just like she said, and, uh, just as she apparently experienced to some extent when she was a kid. But I don’t think it’s quite that simple. It’s purposely left ambiguous, and I think it’s probably a stronger movie for it.

Because if this ended up being more straightforward, it’d be even less remarkable. But, I mean, I think it’s well shot. The cinematography is quite good. The lighting is quite good. The music is good. The acting is fine. I liked some of the things that they’ve done with it, with the story and, and this ambiguity and this…

Again, almost like Curtains and some of these other movies that just seem to be aspiring to more than just horror, but they’re trying to add a lot of psychological intrigue and drama and heady stuff. It just doesn’t work as well as some of those other movies do. 

Craig: Yeah. I, I agree. And, and the pacing is slow.

You, you said the acting is good, and I, I think that’s fair. 

Todd: It’s not terrible. 

Craig: No, my only criticism would be that the actress… Y- I’ve read a lot of praise about her performance. 

Todd: Which one? 

Craig: Not Brooke. The, the Kay. Kay. The m- the main, the main girl. 

Todd: Uh- 

Craig: I just- 

Todd: Kinda one-note. 

Craig: One-note. That’s what, that’s what I was gonna say.

Like, yeah, I mean, she plays that cuckoo well But it’s one note. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: There’s no levels to it, you know? And, and I don’t even particularly have empathy for her because she’s such a weirdo. Like, I don’t know. Yeah. She’s not humanized enough, I guess, as a character. She’s just the weirdo sister who, I don’t know, is around, but- 

Todd: It’s interesting, right, how you can have a role like this, which is pretty one note, and it’s really written that way.

She’s just gotta be loopy and, and upset by her dreams the whole time, and there’s really nowhere else to go. Yet you can have a similar type character in a movie like David Cronenberg’s The Brood, which we did- 

Craig: Yeah, yeah … 

Todd: who you could also argue, but somehow that performance just came across as far more real.

This troubled woman felt like she had layers to her even though She was honestly really just acting in the same place the whole movie, right? Sitting in a bed- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: kind of in the same state the whole time. Somehow that performance was way better. 

Craig: Well, right. You 

Todd: know? 

Craig: And I mean, basically, if we’re drawing the comparison, Kay is the equivalent of Nancy, and Nancy is a very human character.

Right. She, I don’t, I mean, she kind of gets to a point where she’s exhausted and, and, and a little unclear, never to this extent. But even, what was that movie that we watched, we compared it to Nightmare on Elm Street 3? It was about a girl in a hospital, and it had the girl from Nightmare on Elm Street 3.

Oh, yeah. That reminds me of this, except- Bad 

Todd: Dreams. 

Craig: Bad Dreams, right. And she- Mm-hmm … the main character, she would have moments of wackiness where people thought she was being weird and, but she also had moments of clarity and normalcy, and I, I connected more with her as a character than I do with Kay. But, you know, that’s a, that’s a minor thing.

I would say overall, as you said before, if you are kind of like us and like to be the guy in the room who’s seen everything, and, you know, people can ask you about a movie and, you know, you’ve got the knowledge right on the tip of your tongue, which is something that I take pride in, then yeah, this is- Yeah, 

Todd: it’s kind of our job, 

Craig: isn’t it?

I, well, I mean, it’s, it is, yeah, it’s kind of our shtick, I would say is more, is a better way of putting it. 

Todd: Yeah. If, if only this were our job, 

Craig: right? But, uh, but i- if you’re that type of person, if you’re an aficionado, it’s definitely worth seeing. If you’re just looking for a fun slasher to watch with your friends at a sleepover or at a party, there are way more fun ones.

Yeah. Way, way, way more fun ones. 

Todd: This is almost like watching a soap opera with some horror elements to it. It’s, it’s- Mm … kinda slow and dramatic. Slow. 

Craig: Well, and I would say it almost feels even more like a stage play in some way in the pacing of it, but I, I don’t know. That may be kind of a stretch. Anyway, it’s, it’s, it’s not great.

I, I, I wouldn’t steer anybody away from it, but I certainly don’t need to see it again and- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: you could miss it and probably be okay. 

Todd: I agree. I, I totally agree. Well, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us at chainsawhorror.com, or you can send us messages either by voice or by text.

You know the drill. We’ve got Facebook and Instagram channels out there. Please send us your requests. And we’re coming up into the summer, so send us some good summer horror movies that we oughta do, uh, especially, like, for me anyway. I wanna, I wanna see some of these long lost films and figure out if they’re lost gems or if they’re forgotten for a reason.

If you know of any of these kind of movies as well, please send them our way. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/chainsawpodcast, where you can vote on our requests as they come in. Also, a book club going on back there, the unedited versions of our phone calls- That produce these episodes, direct access to us, some minisodes up there, lots of goodies.

Five bucks a month gets you access to all that, and our undying gratitude. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We go modern with Sam Raimi’s 2026 horror-thriller Send Help, now streaming on Hulu, and break down why its genre-blending tone (dark comedy, survival adventure, romance fake-outs, and brutal horror beats) works so well. 

We talk about Raimi’s signature style, the small-cast setup, and the power-dynamics story between office underdog Linda Little (Rachel McAdams) and her arrogant boss Bradley Preston (Dylan O’Brien) after a plane crash strands them on an island.

From the chaotic crash sequence to the boar hunt, shifting sympathies, and escalating psychological violence, we dig into the film’s twists, the mansion reveal, and that sharp final-year-later payoff. Along the way we hit the box office/streaming success, standout performances, and why the ending feels so satisfyingly wicked.

Episode 487, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

 Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

 Todd: We’re going pretty modern today. This, this movie came out this year. I think it’s something that Craig saw, really enjoyed, and thought we should do. And I think you guys’ll be happy to hear us talk about it as well.

It, it involves one of our all-time favorite directors, Sam Raimi, with his newest movie. And, you know, Sam Raimi doesn’t direct too many movies these days, so- Mm-hmm … it always perks my interest very quickly the minute I see that he’s got something new on his plate, because I’ve always loved… Oh, I, I don’t… I think I’ve probably loved everything he’s ever done, honestly.

He’s just a very reliable director. He’s got a good vision. He’s got good knack for picking stories to tell, and he tells them well. This is 2026’s Send Help. Yeah, and it’s streaming right now on Hulu, right? Is it a Hulu exclusive? 

Craig: I believe so. Well, I mean, y- I think you can rent or buy it elsewhere, but- 

 Todd: No

Craig: yeah, as far as streaming is concerned, I think it’s on Hulu or Disney Plus with Hulu But yeah, it just came out this year. As of this recording, which I have no idea when this will come out, but as of this recording, it is the number one streaming film on Hulu and has been for a while. 

 Todd: Oh. 

Craig: It did surprisingly well.

It’s shot on a small budget. I wanna say it shot on a budget of, like, $40 mill- million, which is really impressive ’cause it looks really good. 

 Todd: Yeah, it does. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and $40 million is a relatively low budget for a studio film like this. 

 Todd: Nowadays. 

Craig: Yeah, nowadays. It’s Sam Raimi’s first horror movie since Drag Me to Hell, which- Wow

came out a long time ago. Sure did. Geez. Like, I don’t even remember. Like you said, he just doesn’t do as many movies as he used to anymore, but he was interested in this movie for a long time. I wanna say, like, since 2019 he had been pitching some variation of this movie. But pandemic era, they wanted to take it direct to streaming, and he didn’t want to.

He wanted a theatrical release, and so they just kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. And eventually he got around to it after Doctor Strange and the Multitude of Madness, or Multiverse, excuse me- Ah … Multiverse of Madness. 

 Todd: Did he direct that? 

Craig: I- yeah, I think so. Oh. And he, in that film, he worked with Amy Adams, who’s very famous for many things, but I know her mostly from Mean Girls and The Notebook, but she’s been working consistently since she was young.

She’s fantastic. And he agrees with me and recognized that, and felt like she was underutilized in Doctor Strange, and, and he really, really wanted to work with her again. She was kind of his only choice for the lead role in this film. It did great. At the box office it far exceeded expectations. Even opening weekend I think it was projected to get, like, $14 million or something, and I think it got closer to 20, like 19.1 or something like that.

Hmm. And then, I believe it opened at number one and held that position for three weeks, which is really rare- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: for horror movies because horror fans are so rabid that if there’s something that they wanna see- 

 Todd: We go see it … 

Craig: nine out of 10 times they’re gonna go see it opening weekend, right? Yeah, 

 Todd: right away.

Craig: And so then usually at least by the third week there’s a huge drop-off, and I think by the third week they had only dropped, like, I don’t remember if it was, like, $1 million or something in, in revenue and, and they still held on to that number one spot despite some other pretty big openings, so- Yeah, I, I think it kind of surprised everyone, and it surprised me because I had seen the trailer, and I really like Amy Adams.

Not only have I enjoyed her performances, but I’ve heard other professionals speak about her, other actors, other directors, and, uh, I’ve never heard anybody have a bad word to say about her. I’ve, I’ve seen her, you know, in, like, talk show appearances as herself. She seems very confident. She seems to n- really know who she is and what she wants to do.

And from very early on in her career, like after the success of Mean Girls, she probably could have gone on to do a bazillion romantic comedies, generic romantic comedies just based on her looks and obvious talent alone, but she didn’t wanna limit herself to that. She wanted to stretch herself and, and push boundaries.

And, and I think that that shows in this movie. But there are lots of things that we can talk about. One of the reasons it surprised me was because I saw some of the horror elements in the trailer, but I also saw some comedic elements, and I thought, “I’m not really sure what this is going to be.” 

 Todd: Yeah.

Craig: Going in, watching it, I was surprised, and I think that it really is a movie that blends genres really, really well and, and kind of Keeps the audience on its toes and messes with the audience. 

 Todd: It does. 

Craig: When you’ve got such a limited cast, basically these two actors, Amy Adams and Dylan O’Brien, who was the lead, I believe, in the Maze Runner film series- Oh, 

 Todd: was he?

Okay. I only saw the first one of those, and that was years ago. 

Craig: Yeah, he was al- well, he was probably a kid then. Uh, he was in another horror movie, I think, called Love and Monsters, which was a big monster effects movie, which was good. I like him too, and I think he’s a great cast for this role. But when you’ve only got two characters, typically it’s fairly established y- the dynamic and who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy.

Right. And this movie messes with you. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed … There’s so much. There, there’s so much Raimi in it. I had forgotten since the first time I watched it how action-packed it is in places, and then also how intimate and quiet it is in other places. I had kind of forgotten about all of the Raimi throwbacks, and I think a big part of that is because the first time I saw this, I had seen the trailer before the theatrical release, then I kind of forgot about it.

Then I was just flipping around on Hulu and it had just released. I was by myself and, uh, I was like, “Well, I, I may as well just watch it.” So I watched the whole thing. I liked it. Then I went to look it up on IMDb to read stuff about it, and it was only then that I realized that Sam Raimi directed it. Hmm.

So I didn’t even know until after the fact. So seeing it a second time, I was picking up on a lot more of the stylistic things that are typical of his films. And I think one of the reasons that we like him is that he is familiar in some ways. 

 Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: His filmmaking style is familiar. You know, people have various opinions on this, but I feel like Sam Raimi does fan service, and as a fan, I like fan service.

 Todd: No, as we’ve said before, we like to be serviced.

Craig: So if you can’t tell already based on my enthusiasm, I really enjoyed this movie, and I’m excited to hear what you thought of it and what you found interesting about it. 

 Todd: Well, I agree with everything you said. The other thing that I think I really like about Sam Raimi is there’s always An element of humor in everything he does.

He’s got a wicked sense of humor, and that translates through the camera. You know, it comes through the cinematography, the camera moves and things, a lot of which he developed way back when he was doing the, the first Evil Dead movie. And his colleagues on that were all childhood friends, grew up making Super 8 movies together, were remarking like, “What got into this guy?”

Like, “What is all this crazy stuff he’s suddenly coming up with now on this movie?” And so he’s just a real creative dude, and he knows how to shoot a lot of different things. And, you know, he’s done horror, but then he also did Spi- the original Spider-Man movies. Yeah. So he did superhero. He did Darkman before that, actually.

And he’s also done really sweet things. He’s done, um, A Simple Plan. Oh m- oh my God, that movie is insane, and that’s a real tense drama. And you’re right that this one has all those Raimi-isms in the filmmaking itself, but then the story also messes with us quite a bit. It, the story’s funny. In fact, it’s darkly comic.

And- 

Clip: Yeah … 

 Todd: I think that probably leads to its broad appeal. This maybe of all the movies he’s made might be his most, I mean, putting Spider-Man aside, might be his most broadly appealing film because it’s got a little bit of everything in there. It’s got a little bit of adventure. It’s got the promise of a romantic comedy.

Craig: Uh-huh. 

 Todd: It has, uh, horror elements. It has thriller elements. It, it keeps you on your toes guessing like a thriller does. You just don’t really know exactly where it’s going to go. And if… Honestly, I was a little pissed at you for the first, I don’t know, half of this movie because I was like, “Craig, we’re a horror podcast.”

“I, I know, I know Sam Raimi directed this, but come on, man. Like, we’re supposed to be doing horror movies. And just because, like, a woman thinks she sees a zombie behind her head or something like that doesn’t make this a horror movie.” But, uh, after a while, yeah, it, it became very much a horror movie, and then you could kinda see all along how it got there.

A- and it’s also really believable. There’s nothing terribly fantastic about this. I liked the characters. I thought they came across as very real, maybe a little stereotypical in the, in the- 

Craig: Sure, especially in the beginning, yeah … 

 Todd: in the beginning. Uh, you know, they’re, they’re playing it up considerably in the beginning to give you this contrast between this woman who is Linda Little, played by Rachel McAdams- 

Craig: Amy, no.

Amy Adams, right? No, no, I have it wrong in my notes. 

 Todd: Yeah, you had it wrong. 

Craig: I, I corrected it earlier. Sorry, I said it wrong the first time. Thank you. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That’s terrible because I, I was just getting ready to go on and on about how great she is and how honestly I think that she probably- Was a huge draw.

‘Cause I think that she, if, if not necessarily as obviously, ’cause I just messed her name up with Amy Adams. I do that all the time, I mix up both up, and I, I think they’re both great actresses. I, I 

 Todd: like them both. Well, just the name. I mean, you had, you had everything else right- Right … what you were saying.

She was in Mean Girls- Right … and yeah. 

Craig: Right. But Rachel McAdams, I think is such a familiar face, especially to our generation. But because of Mean Girls cross-generationally, I think that anybody our age or younger knows that movie. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Or almost everybody knows that movie and, and, and loves that movie. I suppose I could be wrong, but I think the production may owe a lot to her appeal for at least how well it did initially.

I think she was a big draw. 

 Todd: You’re right, she does have that cross-genre appeal, cross-generational appeal. You’re right, that probably is a big, a big thing. She’s playing a, a woman who… I, I mean, it’s interesting because she comes across as just another person at a cubicle in this company, until you realize that everyone is in a cubicle at this company, except for the douchebag nepo-bros at the top.

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: The four or five high-power executives who are high-fiving each other, they’re all men, having their meetings in their glass conference room, taking credit for everything that the people below them do, disdainfully in some circumstances looking down on everybody else out there. But she actually has been at the company for a very long time.

Apparently she’s got this role to play in just doing a lot of very, very hard work. 

Craig: Well, she, she was like the president of the company’s right-hand gal. 

 Todd: That’s what I mean, yeah. 

Craig: But he died. 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And, and though he had assured her that she would be getting a promotion to VP, the nepo son comes in and he’s just this, you know, dude bro.

This is… I, I was gonna say one of the few criticisms I have of it, and it’s really not a criticism because Sam Raimi is not known for subtlety necessarily- True … necessarily. And I understand that he’s establishing this contrast. So it’s easy to see the young guy, Dylan O’Brien, uh, hi- his character’s name is Bradley, of course it is.

Yeah. Bradley Preston. 

Clip: Bradley Preston. 

Craig: Right. It’s 

 Todd: a good character name, just like Linda Little. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. It is. Yeah. It, it’s initially fairly easy to see him in that role, exaggerated as it is, but he’s condescending and nasty. On the other hand, Rachel McAdams, they try to make her a frump. They try to make her very dowdy They put a couple of prosthetic, like, warts on her face, and they’ve got her dressed in, you know, I don’t know, like an oversized sweater over, like, a men’s shirt and, like, a knee-length brown skirt and these- Yeah

you know, she points out- Crazy 

 Todd: cat lady clothes, you know? 

Craig: Y- yeah, crazy cat lady clothes. Which you can’t… Y- I mean, you’re gonna have to try a lot harder to ugly up Rachel McAdams. 

 Todd: Yeah. Well, so you didn’t, you didn’t, uh, buy it. You saw right through that. I, I thought it, she- 

Craig: Well- 

 Todd: I thought they did it… I sh- thought she came across as pretty awkward and- 

Craig: Oh, no, her performance is fantastic.

I’m just saying the appearance, even though the performance, she’s ridiculously awkward. Like- Yeah. … sh- it, it just- Yeah … you can’t argue that she’s not awkward and potentially a little annoying and, you know? 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Some people are a little awkward and annoying, and that’s fine. That doesn’t mean that you should belittle and be mean to them.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And you, you immediately feel for her because he’s not judging her based on anything other than her appearance and the awkward interaction that they initially have where she has tuna fish on her face and accidentally spits it onto him, and he’s just actual- he’s r- revolted, repulsed, whatever. And in fact, he wants to get rid of her altogether.

But his advisor, who I think was kind of his dad’s advisor, too, says- 

Clip: Your father promised her a promotion from manager to vice president. Did he? A big bump in title and salary. Yeah. She’s been waiting for it. Right. Well, Donovan’s getting that job. Your father relied on Linda. Real workhorse. I dumped everything on her.

Does it look like I give a shit? It doesn’t, right? ‘Cause I don’t. My father’s not here anymore. It’s Donovan’s. Plus, I already told him. And move her. Satellite office maybe, somewhere far. She makes me sick. Really. We have Bangkok coming up, and we haven’t even cracked appendix D. Donovan will drown on his own.

The whole thing could fall apart without him. Okay, fine. Bring her. She’ll get Dono up to speed, and then we’ll ship her out. 

Craig: And when she finds out that she’s not getting the promotion, she confronts him, which was a l- a little bit unexpected because she seems so mild-mannered, and she is very friendly, but Rachel McAdams’ performance is great.

You can see the anger and the tension in her face and in her performance. She’s really good at expressing emotion in her face. But then the conversation between the two of them is infuriating because he’s completely condescending. He’s patronizing of her, and ultimately it’s like, “Well, you know, sometimes we gotta make hard decisions.”

Like- 

 Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: he’s a real prick. 

 Todd: But then he comes in with, “But, you know, I tell you what. Why don’t you prove me wrong? Come join us on the Bangkok merger, and let’s see what happens.” And this is very much setting us up for a very particular kind of movie. We have seen this movie 1,000 times, right? At least this setup we’ve seen 1,000 times.

All right, now she’s gonna go headstrong. She’s gonna try her best to prove herself to the boss, and she’s gonna have awkward funny moments along the way and- 

Craig: And she’s going to, and then they’re gonna fall in love. 

 Todd: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Craig: He’s gonna realize the error of his ways. She’s gonna prove herself.

They’re gonna fall in love and live happily ever after. Yeah. 

 Todd: And that is exactly how this feels for the first, like, almost 20 minutes really of this two-hour movie. It feels like we’re diving right into that, and that’s when I was like, “Oh, Craig, come on. Tell me this takes a turn.” “Tell me this takes a turn.”

Craig: Really the only other, the only other important golfing or golfing, the only other important office moments- 

 Todd: There is golfing in the office. That is an office 

Craig: moment Yeah. Yeah, because he and his dude bro, Donovan or whatever, who he’s promoting over her who has no experience, they, like, talk about golf and are, like, putting in the office and, and stuff and- Yeah, 

 Todd: she doesn’t even golf, man.

Craig: Yeah, she doesn’t even golf. And he tells her, Bradley tells Linda, “You know, I know you’re really great with numbers and everything, but we need somebody who’s good with people, somebody who’s charming who can watch, walk into a room and, like, turn heads, you know, somebody who plays golf.” S- he’s such an idiot.

A- and that’s the only reason that I thought- It didn’t really necessarily strike me as the setup for a romantic comedy just because of how bad he is, and, like, he, he’s such an asshole that I think if this is a romantic comedy, you’re gonna have a really hard time getting me on board with this guy. Yeah.

To be fair, later in the movie I started to reconsider. 

 Todd: Yeah, ’cause there’s that role reversal and then that, you know, that’s when this becomes a very different kind of movie altogether, which we’ve seen before. 

Craig: True. 

 Todd: He really does flip back and forth with these m- I mean, kind of like chick flick genres in a way, right?

Like, in the, in the very beginning. And I love it. It’s skillfully done and it, it’s a jolting when it happens, but in a very good way. 

Craig: And, and I wanna get right back to that, but we also meet his gorgeous fiancee, Zuri, and she comes about later, so I just wanted to toss her name in there. 

 Todd: And damn she’s tall.

Craig: Oh, and gorgeous, wow. She could do way better than him, and he’s a good-looking guy. Mm-hmm. But to be fair, he is super rich, so he’s got that going for him. That back and forth, when you said there’s kind of a role reversal, I think ultimately that’s largely what the movie is about. It’s about power dynamics.

And in the beginning he has all the power and she has none. When circumstances change, that dynamic shifts, and so our perception of them starts to shift, too. And all of that happens because while the dude bros and her, first of all, after that confrontation she has to walk out fighting tears and she try, it, she tries to give herself pep talk in- the car.

And I just, I, I, I, I so felt for her. I’ve felt that way in my own personal experiences so many times. Like- Mm … don’t cry, don’t cry, don’t cry. Mm-hmm. Don’t like, don’t let them see you cry. And I just, I, I really empathized with her, and then when she was trying to build herself up and say, “We’ll make the best of this,” and, you know, she lives alone with her bird.

She’s the sad, pathetic bird lady- … who shares toast with her bird like Lady and the Tramp. And I’m like, “This poor girl, I like her. I’m rooting for her. I’m on her side. She’s the protagonist. She’s gonna come out on top.” 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So when she goes to the plane and they all ignore and dismiss her and are acting like assholes, and she gets on the plane, and she’s doing the work she’s supposed to be doing, trying to save them a bunch of money and time- 

 Todd: Yeah, thinking she’s really gonna impress them.

Craig: Yeah. Right. She’s giving it the old college try. She wants to prove herself. Meanwhile, they’re all up in the cabin in front of her, and Donovan, the, the best friend who’s getting the promotion’s like, “Hey, I’ve got something to show you.” And he pulls out his laptop and he pulls up this video, and it’s her Survivor audition tape.

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: She is obsessed with Survivor. Yeah. We saw that because she watches it at home with her bird, and she’s got, she… I don’t know if you noticed, but they panned across her bookshelf, and it was largely survivalist- 

 Todd: Yeah, that’s right … uh, 

Craig: manuals that she had there. And they’re all just laughing and laughing and laughing.

They’re such assholes. They’ve got the screen pointed at her. So- Yeah, 

 Todd: and looking over their shoulder to see that she’s seeing. 

Craig: And l- and laughing and pointing. Ugh. They’re such dicks. Good for her than when she has finished this project and is gonna save them a bunch of time and money, and in the last minute she just deletes it.

I was proud of her for doing that. 

Clip: Uh-huh. 

Craig: And then there’s a quick burst of turbulence, and the flight attendant says, “Everybody needs to sit down and put on their seatbelts.” Now, Bradley, they were all gathered around his seat, standing watching over his shoulder. So he’s already in his seat, but he just laughs and says, “Yeah, sit down and s- strap up if you’re a bunch of pussies.”

And then immediately- … we go into this huge action scene that especially watching it for the second time, I was like, “Wow-” 

 Todd: Yeah … “

Craig: this is fantastic.” 

 Todd: It, it’s, it’s classic Raimi too. It doesn’t pull any punches. These guys are getting thrown around the cabin, they’re whacking the ceiling. I thought one of them just broke his neck right off the bat.

Uh- And, and you know what? I actually, as a guy who flies really frequently, I’m, I’m often pissed at people who don’t take the fasten your seatbelt stuff seriously because I’ve been on turbulent flights before, and I know that, you know, and it’s been in the news recently, you can seriously get injured- 

Clip: Mm-hmm

 Todd: by just a little bit of turbulence that, you know, if you’re in your seat with your seatbelt on, everything’s fine, but if you’re standing or, you know, you get up to go to the bathroom even though they, everybody including the flight attendants are strapped down, you have no idea the danger that you could be putting yourself into, as well as the people around you, and that always irks me.

So I loved seeing those guys get whacked around after he said that. And this sequence is so great. It’s so great because she’s strapped in, and all of a sudden, I don’t even know how it happens, but there’s like a failure or something in one of the windows. Does something hit the window? 

Craig: I don’t know if something ex- like, a, an engine exploded or what.

Mm-hmm. But like you said, his friends, like, hit the ceiling and then hit the floor, and then yeah, one side of the plane goes out, gets… I mean, you see it get sucked out, and one guy gets immediately just sucked out with it. Donovan grabs onto her foot. She’s strapped in, and he’s like, “Help me, help me,” and then he starts saying, “Give me your seat”- Yes

and starts reaching for her seat belt. What 

 Todd: an asshole, this guy. 

Craig: I know. And then th- uh, some other asshole grabs Donovan’s leg and is holding on, and then they start fighting each other. Like- 

 Todd: Yeah, Donovan’s kicking him in the teeth … 

Craig: his teeth are flying out, and the guy, you know, before he got his teeth knocked out, he took a big chunk out of his leg.

Like, it’s just to show what terrible people these guys are. They’re not friends. Oh. They don’t care. They’re only looking out for themselves in any given moment. They’re dicks. 

 Todd: It was so satisfying seeing them get sucked out, especially Donovan, ’cause when he gets sucked out, like, his tie gets caught. 

Craig: It’s suspenders.

He’s a douchebag who wears suspenders. 

 Todd: Oh, suspenders, that’s it. And like, he, he’s, like, up against the side of the plane, and he’s getting whacked continuously. His face is getting whacked against the window right next to, to Linda, and he, he turns, he’s like going, “Do something, do something,” and she just closes the window.

And I- … laughed out loud at that moment. I, I rarely laugh out loud at movies, and I laughed out loud when she shut that window on his face. 

Craig: I thought it was very funny. And then the plane crashes. It, you know, it’s a dark and stormy night in the rough ocean, but it goes, you know, down kind of nose first, and it starts to sink and, you know, she struggles for a while, but she gets out, and they’re, we see in the dis- you know, a dark silhouette of an island in the distance, and then she wakes up, having washed up on shore.

And then we’re in a new movie. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Now we are in, you know, a island survival movie. It’s Cast Away with two people. Uh-huh. Two people with very different views of the world, two people who come from very different experiences and backgrounds. And so now it’s a, a character movie- … for a very long time. 

 Todd: With the potential of a romantic comedy coming up, because that’s immediately what you think when you see this.

A man and a woman stranded on an island who are a bit at odds at first, and now she’s got the advantage over him because he’s, he’s- his leg or something is- 

Craig: It’s injured. She says it’s not broken … 

 Todd: but it’s injured enough that the guy can barely move. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: And, and now she b- uh, as we know, has all the survival skills that she can’t wait to put to use, and he’s incapacitated.

Now the tables have turned, and this is perfect fodder for a Hallmark romantic comedy that you’d see- 

Craig: Uh-huh, uh-huh … 

 Todd: on TV, along with this little survival adventure thing. It’s like Romancing the Stone, you know? Or- 

Craig: Right, that’s exactly what I thought. 

 Todd: So yeah, again, I’m thinking, “Craig, come on. When, how is this possibly gonna turn horror?”

Craig: Well, I mean, there was some pretty graphic violence and gore in that plane scene. There 

 Todd: was, 

Craig: of course. I mean, Donovan smacking up against, and there’s blood everywhere, and then- His 

 Todd: face … 

Craig: I think the other douchebag, like when she, when she actually finally gets out through the side, the other dead douchebag, who’s all messed up too, kinda pops down in front of her and is a, a jump scare.

But- Mm-hmm … I get what you’re saying. It, it’s genre-bending, and up until this point, it doesn’t feel much like a horror movie. If anything, really more like a thriller up until this point. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And you could argue that it kind of remains like a thriller through most if not all of it. Just depends on how you define the genres, I guess.

 Todd: Well, we’ve done this before too, and I mean, you… A slasher is really just a murder mystery, but it’s just extremely gory, right? 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: So I mean, you know, this is, this is… It’s fine. You… I, I see this as horror as well because there is extreme violence in here. There’s some deep, unsettling psychological things that are happening much later.

You know, one of her first orders of business is she sharpens a stick and goes out and kills a boar, and that wild boar looked like a demon-possessed crazy thing. And I loved that sequence because it sh- it’s not easy for her to kill it, and we have serious Evil Dead vibes here- 

Craig: Oh, yeah … 

 Todd: where even though she stabbed, there’s blood going all over her, and it’s like climbing on her, and it’s like spitting- It’s spit-

blood in her face. 

Craig: And snot, like thick green snot in her face, in her open mouth. 

 Todd: Oh, God, she’s digging out his eyeball, and it’s still coming. It like, yeah, that was a- That was a rabid, that’s all I can say, rabid wild warthog going after her, 

Craig: so- It would 

 Todd: be- Yeah, at that point 

Craig: I was like, “Okay.” Yeah, that surely weighs at least as much as her.

 Todd: Oh, God, yeah. 

Craig: But I mean, that’s, that’s jumping forward to kind of the extreme, but she proves from the beginning that she is self-sufficient. She can take care of herself. Like you said, she, she immediately goes to the task of making fire, collecting water, getting food. 

 Todd: Making a shelter. 

Craig: Creating a shelter.

He- for him f- first. Meanwhile, he’s being a big baby, crying over his best friend who didn’t make it apparently, and eventually when she, you know, gets fire made, she immediately makes some fish and he… She has to force-feed it to him like he’s a child and- And he’s 

 Todd: bitching about it. 

Craig: Right. But, you know, after all this, after she’s got everything all set up, there’s this…

And, and she’s fed him, there’s a scene where she’s sitting on the beach looking out over the ocean, and she’s kind of just giggling, and it seems like she’s happy- For the- … and proud of herself. 

 Todd: Yeah. Like, she’s finally in her element. She’s finally in- Uh-huh … a place she can have a degree of control, you know?

And that’s- 

Craig: Right … 

 Todd: like you said, that’s what this is all kind of about, is power dynamics and control and, and this is probably the first time in her life that, uh, she’s in this kind of position, and you can tell she’s really loving it. And he’s still treating her like a dick, so she just up and leaves for a couple days.

Craig: I think that’s my favorite part of the movie when she gets really excited. She finds a conch and she’s gonna bring it home and eat it, and he starts telling her what her priorities should be. 

Clip: We have to locate the crash site first- Hmm … and then see if there’s any survivors. So many little islands around here.

Right. Well, have you tried making a distress signal? What’s that? A distress signal, like, uh, you know, put your little bamboo sticks in the sand to spell out help. Something like that. Or a bigger fire. Get the smoke really roaring, you know? That could work. Sorry, that just wasn’t on my, top on my list of priorities.

I was busy trying to keep us alive, you know? Food, water, shelters Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. But what about, like, GPS tracking or equipment from the plane that could’ve washed up? Have you been on the lookout for any of that? That should be your focus, okay? Yeah, but that’s not gonna- Getting us out of here, not being freaking Suzy Homemaker over here.

Craig: She never really becomes impolite, but she kind of talks back to him, I guess, and eventually he says something like, “Watch how you speak to me.” And she leaves, and it shows him sitting there just waiting for her to come back. Like, “She’ll come back. She’ll come back.” Yeah. Um, and, and time just continues to progress until he realizes she’s not coming back, and she hasn’t left him any water, and she doesn’t come back for a couple of days You know, in the meantime, he’s had no water, his shelter is blown away.

He’s, you know, just been laying there in the sun, and she comes and she gives him some water, and he wakes up, and she says, “We’re not in the office anymore, Bradley.” And like I just love that line because it conveys a much larger message, but she is making it very clear you’re not the boss here, and you need me.

I think she even… That’s what it was. She said something like, “You know you would’ve died on the beach if it weren’t for me,” and he kind of scoffs and I don’t know, he’s just really ungrateful and condescending, and that’s what sets it all off. But I love that, and it’s clear from that point on that she, the power dynamic has shifted.

And that’s when she goes and kills that huge boar, and it’s a, again, a great action piece and, and she’s sneaky. She tricks it somehow and ends up being able to jump down on it from a tree, and she 

 Todd: sp- Yeah … 

Craig: and it sprays blood all over her face, and then she comes back and just drops the severed head by Bradley, and blood shoots all over his face to his horror as well.

 Todd: It really establishes here now that not only does, is she smart enough, like not only does she have the knowledge to be able to work through this, but she’s got the, the drive and the stamina and the physical ability to get out of scrapes, to kill a boar, things like that. I mean, you know, it might be a little hard to believe, but again, this is what we see in these kind of movies.

You know, everything gets just a little bit heightened and… It’s a comedy. Most comedies are like that. Yeah, 

Craig: yeah. Raimi is not subtle. This, this boar is crazy. It’s a, it’s kind of a crazy Evil Dead boar shooting out blood and snot and, you know, chomping towards her face and stuff. And it, it… I, I, I thought it was very tense and scary and very, very bloody.

She even kind of comments on that when they’re sitting eating. She roasts at least part of the pig right away, and they’re sitting there at night eating it, and it’s so good, and they’re just, you know, like moaning, enjoying it, talking about how good it is. And they’re giggling and laughing and, and kind of having a good time.

And she says, “Just think, while you were here sitting on your pathetic butt, poor little old me was out there bringing home the bacon.” 

 Todd: No. 

Craig: And they laugh and laugh.

But it’s also at this part that you think, “Oh, here it comes. Here’s where the romance is coming,” like- 

 Todd: Yeah, ’cause he’s softening up … 

Craig: Right, he’s softening up. But then she finds a beautiful waterfall, and she is just, like you said, she’s just in her element. She is soaking this up. She’s, you know, uh, bathing in the, in the pool and putting a flower in her hair, and she just looks like she’s absolutely in paradise when- She sees a boat right offshore.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And initially she’s super excited and runs, and she almost starts to call for it, but she doesn’t And then under her breath she says, “Not yet.” And then she goes back to camp and she doesn’t tell him. 

 Todd: Yeah, that’s where that really started to get interesting. 

Craig: Right, right. ‘Cause on the one hand, I understand where she’s coming from.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: This is a much better life for her, and she really is in her element and it, you know, gives her agency, not only over herself, but a little bit of power and authority probably that she’s never experienced before. I get it. But if I were him Oh 

 Todd: yeah, I’d be pissed. 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: But this is the kind of thing those dude bros would do.

The, the- Probably … take advantage of your opportunities- It’s selfish … man. When life sends you this thing, like take advantage and, and do it for yourself. You know? Don’t worry about anybody else. Like, a- and so in a way, that becomes her undoing as well, is that she is now so into this that she’s getting a little bit of this selfish dude bro mentality.

Craig: Yeah. True. But he’s getting restless, you know? They’ve been there for two weeks at this point, and he wants to build a raft, but she says that’s a bad idea. And she says something like, “Haven’t I taken good care of you?” And he gets all upset and says, “I could do it by myself,” and, “You’re fired,” and he leaves to make his own camp and there’s a whole montage of him trying and failing to em- to emulate the things that he’s watched her do.

Meanwhile, within… Th- they’re only about 100 yards down the beach from each other. They can see each other perfectly clearly, and meanwhile she’s thriving. She’s, like, making hats for herself and she’s like- 

 Todd: She’s like a total Swiss Family Robinson over there. 

Craig: Definitely. Making herself, like, gourmet meals and stuff and- On, 

 Todd: like, banana leaf plates and things.

Craig: Yeah. And the comedy, the comedy comes in here because, like, he’s doing so poorly and he has to, like, eat a disgusting bug, and like, he tries to write help on the beach and even spells it wrong. And like, come on. But ultimately it leads to him crawling back to her, tail between his legs. Yeah. And the first thing he says is, “Where did you get that knife?”

‘Cause she has, like, a, what looks like a nice kitchen knife. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And she says she found it. She said it, it washed up on shore. She’s like, “You never know what’ll wash up on shore.” And there’s a whole thing where she basically makes him- Beg … humiliate, beg- … humiliate himself. She’s sitting- It’s cute, though

there eating this feast. Yeah. It is cute. I mean, she’s putting him in his place. And, and one could argue that he deserves to be put in his place. For sure. But she’s funny. You know, she’s, she’s taunting him. She’s eating this beautiful food that she’s prepared in front… All these beautiful fruits and she’s got sushi.

She’s even made a dipping sauce for her sushi and- Oh my God, it’s 

 Todd: so funny. But, but what she’s doing is she’s throwing back at him exactly what he gave to her. She’s basically quoting his lines from way back in the office- Uh-huh … when he was patronizing her And telling her that, “Well, you know, you just need to buck up and try, and maybe I’ll give you a chance,” and blah, blah, blah.

And he sees it, and he recognizes it, and eventually he capitulates and even kind of laughs about it. 

Craig: Yeah. 

 Todd: You think, “Okay, this guy’s kind of coming around.” 

Craig: Well, but he also knows, I think, there are multiple places in this where she asserts her dominus and h- dominance and he just has to concede to it. One of the last things that she says to him is not something that he said to her, but something that he overheard her- overheard him saying to another female employee, a stereotypically beautiful woman.

He said the last question in her interview was, “How above and beyond are you willing to go for me?” 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And she says that to him in this moment, and knowing fully what that means, he stands up and starts to undress. And she says, “Oh, stop, stop. I would never do that. I’m not like you.” 

 Todd: Yeah. So interesting, that moment.

Craig: I know. And, and I wondered, I thought maybe for a minute she would take advantage of him because- Mm … she is into him. Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s very clear that she’s attracted to him and that she’s hoping that he will come around. 

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: At this point, I didn’t know what was happening, but I knew that something was up Because she takes him on a walk.

She says, “I wanna take you on a walk.” She takes him up this dangerous cliff. Along the way, she gives him a little lesson out of nowhere on poison berries. She’s like, “Oh, look, never eat yellow, orange or something berries, but if you’re ever unsure on if they’re poisonous, just do this,” and she smacks a- she smashes a berry on her arm, her forearm, and rubs it in, and an allergic reaction pops up.

She’s like, “That’s how you know if it’s poison.” 

 Todd: Do you- 

Craig: That seemed out of nowhere … 

 Todd: do you think that’s true? I mean, I know that they- I have 

Craig: no idea … 

 Todd: I know that they consulted actual survivalists, uh, for this- 

Craig: That’s 

 Todd: right … and was trying to make everything accurate. But that seems like… I don’t know if every poisonous berry is gonna have a skin reaction necessarily.

Craig: I almost wonder… Y- you know, I almost believe it to be true because it’s really not necessary. 

 Todd: Yeah, she could’ve just said, “These berries are poisonous, I know.” 

Craig: Right. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Right. So I, I, I don’t know, but- Huh … why put it in there if it’s not? True. Who knows? I don’t know. But anyway, she gets him up to the top of this peak and she says, “Okay, I’ve explored the whole island.

Look over there. That’s us” And then, I don’t know, she tells him where a couple of other things are, and then she points him in the other direction and she says, “You see those two big rocks that form the shape of an X?” And he said, “Yeah.” He’s like, “That whole area is just surrounded, uh, you know, covered in poisonous thorns, so don’t go over there.”

And the first time I saw the movie, I was like, “Now, wait a minute.” 

 Todd: Yeah. “

Craig: We haven’t seen her go there.” It just seemed weird. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: What, what’s happening? 

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Even… I feel like even if I were him, I’d be like, “Uh, okay. Sure, I won’t, I won’t check out to see what’s over there at all.” 

 Todd: I thought I even saw on his face a little bit of what, what are you d- you know, disbelief.

Craig: Well, maybe. Maybe. A- a- and obviously it’s a setup for something and, and it, it pays off later. But on the way back, part of the cliff falls out from underneath her and, and she’s hanging very precariously by a vine and, and he saves her, and had he not been there, I, I don’t think that there would’ve been any way that she could’ve saved herself.

So I don’t know. I mean, at least… I, and I suppose if you really wanted to get analytical, you could say he needs her for survival. But it, it really appears at this point that they are growing some sort of affinity, if not romance, at least an affinity for one another. Mm-hmm. And then she tells him that she’s made some toilet wine with fermented fruit, and they get drunk on it.

And I think she accidentally calls him sweetie, but, and he calls her out on it, and she says, “Oh, that’s the name of my bird,” which I think is true But they’re drunk. And this is a really interesting scene around this campfire. Because they are intoxicated, I think both of them are a little bit looser in sharing things about themselves, and we find out some interesting things about both of them.

 Todd: Well, for his part, you can talk about her, but for his part, it turns out that he’s had a kind of a shitty upbringing. He said his dad was not great and available. He 

Craig: said, “I couldn’t tell you a thing about him.” Yeah. Mm-hmm. “I, I didn’t know him. I couldn’t tell you a single thing about him.” 

 Todd: And, you know, all this kinda tracks.

You know, I think that a lot of these, these types of people are the people who are aggressive and hyper-masculine and stuff in this way often didn’t have a good father figure around, and also are dealing with resentment from their childhood that they’re trying to overcome. And so again, this is like a typical romantic comedy moment where this guy who originally seemed unreachable or arrogant or dismissive or something like that, you find out that there’s a real good reason for it, and so now he gets a little bit of sympathy.

Craig: Yeah, and not, not only was his dad absentee, but his mother was also abusive- 

 Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: uh, emotionally and physically, so he really did have it bad. I, I think if he had just had an absentee dad, I would’ve been like, “Oh, poor rich boy. Daddy’s off making your money.” But the fact that he was also abused, you know, I, I did feel bad for him.

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: We find out she was married for 10 years, and she says, “He died.” And the guy says, “Oh, I’m sorry.” And she says, “Oh, no, no. It’s okay. He wasn’t very nice.” And we find out that he died in a car accident, and she tells this story about how whenever he would get really drunk, she would hide his car keys. But one night he got really drunk, and this is a uncomfortable scene to watch- 

Clip: Hmm

Craig: because sh- she says he got really drunk and he did some really bad things, even for him, things he had never done before. And she said, “And then, you know, he was freaking out looking for the keys. I took them out of my purse, put them on the table, poured him his last drink, and sent him on his way, and he was killed in a car accident.”

And she says, “God, I can’t believe I, I told you that. I’ve never told anybody that before.” And I don’t remember which of them brings up the line, I think it’s her, and I think it’s in reference to him. She says, “You’ve heard that old saying, ‘Monsters aren’t born, they’re created.'” And he says something like, “Yeah, I was kind of a monster.”

And she says, “Well, at least now we know it’s not your fault.” I think that’s an interesting line, and I think that it’s interesting that it comes up at this point. 

Clip: Hmm. 

Craig: Because I think right now they’re both kind of attributing it to him, but I think it applies to her as well. We just don’t have the full context to know that yet.

Clip: Right. 

Craig: At this point she makes the mistake, I think, of telling him that they should never leave, that they should stay there. 

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: And as soon as she has done that, she wakes up on the beach sick, and I thought, “Oh, he poisoned her with those berries.” But no, I think she’s just really hungover. 

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: So she gets up and watches him, I don’t know, stand naked on the beach, and he sees that she sees him.

So again, here we’re getting it… They’re getting more comfortable with each other. The, the romance is heating up. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And then there’s a big storm, and a, the tree falls, and it ruins their shelter so they have to run to a cave, and then they have to snuggle for body warmth. Afterwards she’s like, “Well, our, our shelter’s all destroyed.

I guess I was an idiot for building it so close to the, the shore.” And he’s like, “No, it’s, it’s okay.” we can build a new one. We’ll do it together.” And they do, and they work together. And he says that he wants to take a walk, and she goes with him. She starts to send him off by himself for a second, and then she kind of pauses and says, “Oh, wait, and don’t forget, don’t go over to that big X area.”

And he’s like, “Okay.” And she’s like, “Oh, you know what? Never mind, I’ll just go with you.” Yeah. So something’s going on. 

 Todd: Something’s up. 

Craig: But he’s being really nice to her, and she is receiving it. I don’t know how else to say it. Like, he’s being nice, and she’s, I guess for lack of a better word, believing it. But I was feeling a lot of tension because I didn’t know what was happening.

Is he really warming to her, or is there something else going on? Because we also saw at one point very briefly when she’s looking for him, and he kind of pops up, and it’s obvious that he’s doing something, like working on something, but we don’t get any indication of what it is. But he says that he’d like to make her dinner, and she says, “Well, that’d be nice.”

And he puts together this romantic dinner, and he’s got, like, sashimi with, uh, you know, he says it’s, like, apricot top or something. And she eats it, and she immediately starts to feel funny. She falls over in agony, and as soon as she is incapacitated, from the shoreline that’s been hidden by the foliage, he pulls out this raft that he’s apparently been making.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So I guess all of this has been a ruse. 

 Todd: This kind of shocked me, actually, because I thought, “Oh my God, the dickishness of this guy.” It’s back in character for who he was, but I really felt like there was some change, some appreciation, some something. I mean, if you’re gonna build a raft, why not build a raft for two people?

Craig: Well, to be fair, he had brought up the idea of building a raft- Yeah, she shot it down … for both of them together. That’s true. And she, she rejected it. She said, “Nope, that’s a last resort. We’re not doing that.” 

 Todd: And to be fair, yeah, he probably by now figured out… He, he seems to maybe have figured out she really has no intention of leaving the island.

Craig: Right. Right. Exactly. But he goes out, and, and, and it doesn’t… It also doesn’t look… I would have to go back and look again. He did take his cup. They both have cups with their names. But… And it looked like he took a couple of coconuts, but it didn’t l- look like he robbed her dry or anything. But he gets out there, and he gets over one big wave, and he yells back, “Ha ha, you, Linda.”

And then immediately another wave hits and, and totally destroys- Yeah … the, the raft, and he nearly drowns. And as he’s nearly drowning, he’s like… It’s that classic shot where he’s sinking, you know, facing upwards, and the light of the moon is illuminating from above. And he sees, like, this angelic vision of his fiance- His girlfriend.

Yeah … calling to him, but then it cuts immediately to him on the shore and Linda pulling him up, and she barfs on his face four times- Yeah. … while giving him mouth to mouth. ‘

 Todd: Cause she’s sick. Oh my 

Craig: God. From the- It’s 

 Todd: so funny. 

Craig: Oh my God. It was so gross. Like, when she barfed the first time, I’m like, “That’s disgusting.”

And then the second time I started writing in my notes, “Two times.” And then the third time, and then, “Four times.” Yeah. Full-out barf all over his face. It was so disgusting. 

Clip: Mm. 

Craig: But the next day he is apologetic and says he swears he wasn’t trying to kill her, and she says, “It’s okay, you don’t have to say that.

I believe you.” She’s being really nice. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then she gives him a shish kabob. In two days we have watched two movies where a shish kabob has been used- … to victimize someone. 

 Todd: We sure have. 

Craig: Also in those two days we have seen movies where somebody has either drowned or nearly drowned in a submerged vehicle of some sort, which is really my worst nightmare.

Mm. And it’s just such a weird coincidence two literal days in a row. So okay. Shish kabob. 

 Todd: Same movie too. 

Craig: He’s also, he’s also a dummy because he just poisoned her and so she poisons him. She, uh, paralyzes him with a blue-ringed octopus, which they really are poisonous. But then there’s this whole scene where she does this whole thing where she’s like, “I, I grew up on a farm and, you know, any time we had dogs that wanted to roam my dad said, ‘Well, you know how you fix that.'”

And he’s completely paralyzed and she’s heating up the knife. She’s threatening to castrate him. Have you seen the movie Hard Candy? 

 Todd: Yes. 

Craig: It’s almost the exact same scene. 

 Todd: It really 

Craig: is. Really. 

 Todd: Oh. 

Craig: Because she, she take, she takes his pants off. She goes down with her hands on the knife. He can’t move, so he can’t see what’s happening.

One of my favorite lines is, “Oh, don’t be a crybaby, you’ll never miss this stuff.”

And then at one point a bunch of blood sprays up in his face, and he’s kind of moaning and crying a little bit and- Oh, we got 

 Todd: a bleeder. 

Craig: Yeah. And then she pulls up into his sight line a rat, and she says… 

Clip: No help is coming This is the way things are now and you need to just accept that You are stuck. No power, low end of the totem pole, with some asshole boss.

Just like I was. Although I’m betting I am a much nicer boss than you ever would’ve been

Except for maybe this part 

Craig: next time it won’t be a rat,” and she says, “Don’t ever mistake my kindness for weakness.” 

 Todd: Yes. 

Craig: S- and, and again, I mean, what d- what, what can he do? She does have the power. But it’s interesting then after that she tries to just carry on as though, you know, like, “Well, that happened.

Let’s carry on.” But he’s giving her the silent treatment, so she, in an effort to make nice, tries to go collect a bunch of fruit, and as she’s collecting fruit on the beach, another boat appears, and there’s no, there’s no getting out of this one. It sees her, and she knows it saw her. But she’s even more horrified when as it’s approaching she realizes that the person on the boat is his fiancee, Zuri.

And Zuri arrives, and she’s so excited, and she’s asking, you know, she’s like, “I finally found you,” and, “Is he okay? Is he okay?” And she’s like, “Oh, yeah, he’s perfectly fine.” And it’s, it’s Zuri and a guide, one guide. And she says, “Is it just you guys, or is there, like, a whole search party?” And, and the guide says, “Oh, no, it’s just us, but there are gonna be a lot of people back on the mainland excited to see you.”

They’re like, “Is the camp just over this way?” And she’s like, “Uh, uh,” and the guide says, “Well, should we just follow you?” And she says, “Yeah, just follow me. I, I know this shortcut.” And she takes them back to the danger cliff. 

 Todd: Yep. And you know exactly what’s gonna happen 

Craig: here. Yeah. But I, but I like the way that it’s done- 

 Todd: Yes

Craig: because she knows where the weak part of the cliff is, and so she just kinda sets it up that Zuri has to walk by that part. And she does, and it falls away below her, and she falls in exactly the same way that Linda had earlier. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And in exactly the same way that Bradley had earlier, the guide tries to help her, and they’re both begging Linda to help, and she’s just kind of backing away, and it’s a close-up on her face, and she’s distressed.

Cut. 

 Todd: Yes. 

Craig: And the next thing we see is her walking back to camp alone, and then she tosses the fruit down and then walks to the ocean and, and falls to her knees in the water. 

 Todd: She’s very upset, yeah. 

Craig: And then she’s morose. She’s very upset for the whole day, and, and that night she hears somebody from the beach calling her name, and when she goes out there, she sees Zuri crawling up on the beach.

“Why did you do it? Why did you try to kill me?” And she’s saying, “No, no, I didn’t try to do it.” You know, Zuri approaches her. The first time I saw it… What did you think of this the first time you saw it? Did you immediately think- 

 Todd: That it was 

Craig: her … dream, she’s crazy, she really did survive? 

 Todd: I honestly wasn’t sure.

As she started to approach her, I thought, “This is very zombie-like,” you know? And I thought, “Okay, maybe this is a dream.” And they were really making a point of, you know, how she crawled up on the beach and- 

Clip: Uh-huh … 

 Todd: and also, again, I think is another opportunity, remind us of her big, fat diamond ring Which they show us early in the movie and over and over again because it’s gonna be important later.

I love a skillfully written movie because they constantly are signposting things and setting things up for payoffs, but also making sure that you didn’t miss it. Right. I just, I love that about very competent director and, and writer. Yeah, and of course she comes up to her and she takes a swipe at her, and, uh, she disappears into nothingness.

And then suddenly a sort of a decomposed version of her shows up over her shoulder, and she screams. And of course, it’s all a vision. It’s just her guilt coming at her. 

Craig: It, it’s a dream or it’s in her head. Mm. Right. But she’s still, you know, in a bad way. Uh, but Bradley’s like, “We’re out of food. I, I saw a boar.

Will you come hunt it with me?” And, and she still, she doesn’t want to. She’s taking a day off. “

 Todd: I’m taking a sick day,” she says. 

Craig: He go- Yeah. He goes out to look for the boar, and he finds it on the beach. I don’t remember if he tries to shoot it and it runs or if he just startles it and it runs, but it had been eating something, and when he gets up to see what it had been eating, it’s Zuri’s arm sticking up out of the ground Evil Dead style.

Yes. Did you think about that? I sure did. 

Clip: I sure did. 

Craig: I didn’t the first time ’cause I didn’t realize it was Sam Raimi, but, like, it’s totally the woman’s hand reaching up out of the ground, but it’s- it’s Zuri’s hand, and we know this, and he knows this because of the huge rock on her finger. And he rage screams, which he does a lot of really great face work in this movie too.

Clip: Hmm. 

Craig: And he runs back to the camp, like, he’s clearly furious, but he confronts her calmly on the beach, and she’s like, “What- what’s- what- what’s going on? What is happening?” He- he says, “Did you kill her?” And she’s like, “What are you talking about? Who?” And he shows her the ring. And he- she knows that he knows, and she says, “It w- was an accident.”

And he says, “Well, why didn’t you tell me?” She said, “‘Cause I- I knew y- I knew you wouldn’t believe me.” And he’s like, “You’re right, I don’t believe you.” 

 Todd: No. 

Craig: And when she says it was an accident, he says, “Oh yeah, just like your husband’s death was an accident?” And when he says that, she goes for her knife, but unbeknownst to her and us, somehow he has gotten it away from her.

We’ve seen he’s had his eye on it forever. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But she wouldn’t even allow him to use it. But when he realizes… Or excuse me, when she realizes that he has the knife, she runs, and eventually they end up in this big kind of clearing where there is a huge fight. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like, a major incredibly brutal… You know, I always see in movies when people have these big fights, especially, like, fights that are, like, to the death presumably- Mm-hmm

in movies, they always pull punches, and in this, they don’t. These people really look like they are fighting for survival or fighting to the death. 

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: He is not afraid to gouge her eyeball almost completely out. 

 Todd: Oh my, that was gross. 

Craig: She, after that, she gets… She bites his finger, the one that he’s wearing the ring on, and gets the ring in her mouth and, like, smiles at him with it between her teeth and then swallows it.

And he attacks her and- and she gets ahold of the knife that has, you know, fallen to the ground, and she stabs him in the side. And he starts running, and she realizes that he’s running towards that rock formation, the X formation. And when he gets there, he finds a huge, gorgeous glass mansion- … overlooking a cliff.

And he makes his way inside, and she starts taunting him through the PA system or intercom system in the house, and basically she tells him, “You’re gonna be kinda mad because we could have been rescued a long time ago.” And we get some flashbacks where we see that first time that she had seen the boat, she had followed it to this mansion, and she’s known about it since then, and it’s been a while.

And she has broken into the house. She’s gotten food. That’s where she got the knife. Basically, she gives the villain monologue here. Yeah. Like, “Ha ha ha, here’s how I did it all.” Which I actually found to be a little much, but whatever. We also see what happened with Zuri. While Zuri was hanging over the cliff and the guide was trying to help, she came up, Linda came up from behind with a big rock and smashed the guy’s head in, so they both went over the cliff.

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: But she claims she never wanted that to happen. She never wanted any of that to happen. And then she confronts him with a shotgun, and he gets down on his knees and begs. 

Clip: You were right. You were right, okay? I was, I was a piece of shit. I was a terrible person. Uh-huh. I was, uh, I was, I was a monster. I was.

I was a monster.

The way I treated everyone.

I’m so broken. You broke me. I’ve changed Really? I have. I can feel

Because of you, because I

Most incredible person I’ve ever known 

Craig: And eventually he says, “I love you.” Now, I would imagine to any thriller or horror fan, you know that he’s 

 Todd: Lying 

Craig: Full of shit. 

 Todd: Yeah, of course. 

Craig: To, you know, to try to save his own butt. The, I’m, again, it’s not a criticism because I think it’s typical. I, I, I do think that she’s out of her mind.

 Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And so it, it doesn’t seem unreal to me that she buys into it. And when he says, “I love you,” she very softly says, “Why did you make it so hard?” And he says something like, “Oh, because I’m an idiot,” or something, and she starts to smile. She starts to lower the gun, but then she notices that behind him there are two large art pieces that kind of look like- Bull heads?

bulls, kind of. Yeah. Bull heads. Abstract kind of, but they’ve got these big horns, and from one of them, one of the big horns is missing, and we see that he has it behind his back. So he kind of jumps her and he gets a hold of the gun, but when he tries to fire it, it doesn’t work, and she in the meantime had grabbed…

I don’t play golf, so I don’t know, but one of the big golf clubs. Are those drivers, the really heavy ones? 

 Todd: Yeah, one of the woods. Yeah, the drivers. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And she has grabbed one of those off of a display on the wall. So when the gun doesn’t work, she hits him in the side, he falls to the ground, and then he’s standing over her, and she says something quippy and then swings it at his head, but it cuts away before.

 Todd: Oh, gosh, it’s such a great transition. 

Craig: Yeah. Oh, it’s excellent. 

 Todd: Is she swings it at his head. It’s a close-up of that club going to his head, and then it immediately switches to an actual club on a golf course whacking a ball into the distance. It’s so nice. 

Craig: It is really great. 

 Todd: Now we’re forward a year, and she is on this golf course golfing, and she’s surrounded by people.

She’s being interviewed, and someone’s asking her, “Oh, we’re here with this famous, uh-” 

Craig: Real-life survivor. 

 Todd: Yeah. The, the successful person. She’s got a book, a, a best-selling book out. Yeah. And she’s clearly 

Craig: like- She became famous when she was found alone at sea, the only survivor of that plane crash. She’s written a book.

The book’s al- It’s only been a year, but the book’s already been turned into a movie, and her next project is she’s writing a self-help book because she thinks that it’s really important that people should know no help is coming- … so you better start saving yourself. And then it’s the classic, you know, drive along the seaside into the sunset in your white convertible while her favorite song, One Way or Another by Blondie, plays.

Yeah. And also, by the way, she’s had a major Cinderella glow-up. Like- Yeah, she has. … her hair is blonde. She looks actu- ac- And that was… I, I meant to say it very early on and I kinda got off track. Again, it’s not a criticism, but it’s such a silly trope in movies. A lot of people call it the Janie Briggs trope.

“Oh, look at this girl. What a dog. What a…” You know, she’s frumpy and she’s nerdy, and she wears glasses, uh, uh, and- Right … wears her hair in a ponytail. And then there’s that montage with like Weaver. And you know, she, she takes off her glasses and pulls down her ponytail, and all of a sudden she’s a supermodel.

Yeah. Like, come on. Nobody is buying this. Um, she was gorgeous all along. Yes, she needed to wash her hair, but- That’s about it … it was fine. But I, I did find it satisfying. Now, I read somewhere, even though it, I didn’t see any Indian, any indication of it in the movie, I read somewhere that she Had taken his job.

Like, she had been made president of the company 

 Todd: That’s the impression I got, yeah. I- 

Craig: Maybe I missed something 

 Todd: I just, I don’t know, I thought I just kind of assumed it because, you know, that was her goal ultimately was to rise high in this company, and now I see her- Yeah … golfing, ’cause he was like, “You don’t even golf,” and now she’s golfing.

Craig: Yeah. 

 Todd: Just seemed like she had slipped into that role. 

Craig: I don’t know if it was for this part or another part, but they, they wanted Jeff Probst from Survivor to make a cameo. I would imagine it would probably be in this last sequence. 

 Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: But, uh… And, and he w- would’ve been happy to do it, but schedules just didn’t work out.

He was filming in Fiji with, with Survivor, so he couldn’t do it. 

Clip: Oh. 

Craig: I really liked the ending of the movie. It felt very satisfying even though… Uh, b- again, I like movies that blur the line of who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. 

 Todd: Yeah, because she’s kind of the villain here. Then again, it’s the whole she got revenge over the douchey dude bros who dismissed her earlier.

And so yeah, it’s definitely- Well, 

Craig: it’s nice. It’s, it… Even though- It’s satisfying, anyway … she kind of l- she kind of lost her mind along the way. And it’s ambiguous whether or not she literally devised her husband’s death. Right. She con- she conceded that she contributed in it by handing him the alcohol and handing him the keys.

Was there more to it than that? Was it an accident? Did she set it up? I don’t know. She certainly seems like the kind of person who would be capable of doing something like that, technically speaking. Right. You know? She could learn how to cut somebody’s brakes or something if she wanted to. 

 Todd: Sure. 

Craig: I also just think regardless of the terrible things that she did, I still am rooting for the underdog.

Like- Yeah … I don’t think you’re, I don’t think you’re ever gonna get me to root for Bradley. No. I certainly sympathized with him at points, 100%, but I’m rooting for her. 

 Todd: But he never grew. 

Craig: Not… Well- 

 Todd: That was the thing. If he had grown at any point during this, then this would be a little more nebulous. But at almost every turn, when he had the opportunity to screw her, he did.

Craig: Yeah. 

 Todd: He grabbed the raft. He had the big fight with her. He… Well, I mean, he was mad about his girlfriend at that point, but still, like, he lied to her, you know, that, “We can stay.” And of course maybe he… Of course he’s trying to save his skin, but still, when he grabs that gun from her, he goes, “Goodbye, crazy bitch from- Uh-huh

accounting.” 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

 Todd: Oh, that was her line. She’s like, “It’s…” What was her actual title? ‘Cause he could never get her title right, 

Craig: right? I don’t, I don’t know. Yeah. Something about research and development or something. I don’t- 

 Todd: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my point is, like, if he had actually shown growth throughout this, then yeah, you know, you, it would be a little more of a blurry line.

But because he, he just kinda seemed like a douchebag throughout who none of this experience really hit him in the way… None, none of this humbled him In the way that he should’ve been humbled, then yeah, it, it definitely leans more towards, yeah, I, I’m glad that- Yeah … she, the underdog, got what she deserved.

Craig: Well, and, and- It was that kind of movie … Dylan O’Brien, the guy who played Bradley, agrees. He said that he’s Team Linda all the way. And, and I think you’re right. You know, I hadn’t really thought about it. In those momies, in those moments where I kind of sympathize with him, I think that you could argue that any time that he humbles himself in front of her, it’s out of necessity.

It’s not out of true humility. 

 Todd: Yeah. It’s, yeah, it’s for his own gain. 

Craig: Right. Right. 

 Todd: And especially early on, it’s devious. 

Craig: Yeah. So he’s a douche. I’m not saying he got what he deserved necessarily, but it’s, it’s still nice to kinda see the underdog come out on top, and not just out of luck, out of skill and strength.

 Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: You know, she’s a tough bitch. She may not look like it, but don’t mess with her. 

 Todd: Don’t try to take her j- her promotion away. 

Craig: Right. Right. So a- again, I mean, overall I really liked it. I think the success that it’s had thus far suggests… You know, a- and also because this is original IP. Is that what you call it?

Like- Mm-hmm … it’s like, like it’s, it’s not a franchise. It’s not Marvel. It’s not one of those things that already has wide audience kind of locked in. This isn’t part of a franchise. It’s not a sequel. It, it’s not based on familiar characters. And, and that’s a struggle for a lot of movies, and I think that pretty much everybody involved was pleased and surprised by how this came out, and I was pleased with it and surprised by it too, and I, I thought it was a good time.

I, I, I thought it was a lot of fun to watch. Oh my God, yes. And, and, and great performances. I think everybody involved, but specifically the two main actors, and more specifically Rachel McAdams, I think really kind of carried this movie successfully. I thought it was really good. 

 Todd: Yeah. It really was. And filmed in Thailand, not too far from…

It looks like any one of those beaches that are just a hop, skip, and a jump away from where I live. Mm-hmm. So, uh, it’s, uh Reminds me of, of home. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful Thailand. Thank you guys so much for listening to us here. If you enjoyed this movie, please let us know. Just find us at chainsawhorror.com or search Two Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast.

Find us on our socials and shoot us a, a message there. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. For just five bucks a month, you can get instant access to us, uh, access to our complete unedited phone calls, a book club, a bunch of stuff we have going on behind the scenes. And, uh, the best thing you can do is leave us a review.

If you really enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, find your favorite review site, maybe on Apple Podcasts or something, and let us know what you thought of this episode and what you thought of our banter and our witty conversation, as long as, uh, you indeed th- found it witty. If not, uh, keep your opinions to yourself.

Until next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

 Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We dive into the 2022 Finnish satirical, absurdist psychological body horror film ‘Hatching.’

We talk about why we finally picked it, its Sundance buzz and critical praise, and how its quiet pacing and gorgeous cinematography build tension. From the disturbing mommy-blogger facade and relentless pressure on young gymnast Tinja to the eerie egg she incubates and the practical-effects creature that emerges, we unpack the film’s doppelgänger angle, psychic connection, and escalating attacks.

Along the way we explore the movie’s layers of metaphor—maternity, repression, puberty, body image, and parents vicariously living through kids—leading to an ending we found bleak, satisfying, and thematically sharp.

Episode 486, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: This week’s episode was, uh, Craig’s choice. You said to me, “What are you feeling like? You feeling like foreign film? You feeling grindhouse?” And I could have done both, and I don’t know, I just flipped a coin and thought, “Yeah, let’s, let’s do foreign this time around.”

Since we’ve been doing some foreign films lately, I’m kind of in the mood. And this is a, uh, tw- 2022, I love how it’s listed on Wikipedia, satirical, absurdist, psychological body horror film Yeah … which kind of works, I suppose, called Hatching. And it is the, uh, first effort from writer-director Hanna Bergholm, and got major, major awards when it came out.

It… This premiered at Sundance in 2022, got sold to over 75 countries. It has, uh, like a th- 93% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Rotten Tomatoes called it one of the 10 best horror movies of 2022. It won the Grand Prize and Jury Youth Award at the Gendarme Film Festival in France. Several other awards. I think it was listed the best Finnish film of 2022, so it- it’s- it’s definitely very well critically received.

I had not heard of it before, and I’m really curious what made you decide to pick this one this week. 

Craig: I had read about it when it came out and thought that it sounded like an interesting premise, unique, so I was interested. I, I don’t know… I’m sure at some point in time I knew that it was Finnish, but by the time that it finally came around to streaming, I went to put it on, you know, I was just browsing through things, and realized that it was in Finnish and there was no dub.

And so that just kind of kept me away from it for a while. 

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: Because more often than not, if I’m just, you know, scrolling through Tubi or wherever trying to find something to watch, I’m not looking for something to seriously sit down and pay a lot of attention to. It’s, it’s more just to kind of have something on in the background that I can chat with other people during it or, or, you know, look at my phone or whatever.

And obviously, if it’s, you know, strictly subtitles, I can’t do that. I was also surprised to see that this came out in 2022. Time goes by so fast when you’re old. Like- 

Todd: Yeah, it 

Craig: does … I, I, I would have guessed a couple of years ago. But the reason that I picked it, and I am not sure, it, it must have been on Bloody Disgusting, ’cause that’s one of the only horror sites that I look at anymore.

But there was some article, like- five other doppelganger movies you should see before, I don’t know, some doppelganger movie that recently came out. 

Todd: Okay. 

Craig: And I was, I was looking through it, and this movie was on the list, and I didn’t know that this was a doppelganger movie. I thought it was about a girl who hatches some big monstrous bird, and that’s the whole premise.

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: So that, that piqued my curiosity, and it also just gave me an excuse to finally getting around to it. I know you enjoy foreign films, so I thought we’d give it a shot. 

Todd: Yeah. Here we go. Well, it is also about a girl hatching a giant bird. At least for a while. Yeah, I, I really enjoyed this. I have to say it was, uh, beautifully shot.

The settings, the lighting, everything was quite perfect and gorgeous, but it was slow. But I don’t think it was slow in a bad way. I was really engaged by the pacing, the look of it, what was happening to these families. It’s just one of those movies that’s definitely taking its time helping you to get to know the characters and all their subtleties as they go through life.

It feels a little artsy in some respects, but not in an aloof way. Kind of just a down-to-earth… The, the sort of movie that honestly you don’t see from a lot of American directors. You, you do tend to see- 

Craig: Yeah … 

Todd: from European-style films. Wouldn’t you say? 

Craig: Yeah. And I don’t r- really know how to describe it, but I didn’t find it to be slow at all.

I, I thought that the story was very well-paced and that there was a lot going on and that the tension was taut most of the time. Mm. There was never a moment when I felt bored. Even when just small things were happening, in my mind I’m thinking, “I see what this is setting up for, and I’m upset by it.” Like, very small things.

For example, very early on in the movie, our young protagonist finds that a new next-door neighbor family has moved in who also has a young daughter approximately her age, and the young daughter has a little French bulldog that she’s playing with out in the backyard. And I thought- I see where this is going, and I don’t like it.

Oh my God. 

Todd: That soon, huh? 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. Well, and because I knew… I, I, I tried not to read too much about it. The whole doppelganger thing intrigued me, but I didn’t wanna know too much about it going in. So I didn’t know every element of what was going to happen, but I did know that it was a creature feature with practical effects.

Todd: Ah, and I didn’t. I knew nothing about it when I went into it. Literally nothing. Well- Except the name. 

Craig: So, so you didn’t even know that she was, like, raising this big egg? Like, you didn’t even- No … see the- 

Todd: Well, I saw a girl with an egg, but I didn’t know if it was metaphorical or what the deal was, so. 

Craig: I see. I see.

Okay. Yeah. Well, I, I at least knew that, that it was a creature feature, and so I saw where things were going. And I think it builds the tension by giving us a very limited pool of victims, and they’re all pretty… You don’t have the lamb to the slo- you know, just, like, the, the scapegoats, the easy kill-offs.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: All of the potential victims, their deaths are gonna carry some pretty major gravity. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So I thought that was good. The things that you were saying about it, like, I… It, it being shot well. From the very beginning, I also had read body horror in the description, but the… I, I feel like the very opening shot is a cut back and forth between this young girl I would say she’s what?

Like 13 probably. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And she’s doing gymnastics in her living room, and it l- looks like a very opulent, nice house. In fact, it may even have been a special little living space for her ’cause it was all in, like, pink and stuff. I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it cuts back and forth from that to an overhead shot of this, like, idyllic, wealthy, suburban neighborhood with, you know, lots of trees and big yards and, and that kind of stuff.

And immediately I was taken … I was like, “Oh, this is going to be body horror,” because I was horrified by the angles that they were shooting her body. 

Todd: Oh. 

Craig: L- she, she looked so frail- 

Todd: Mm … 

Craig: and thin and unhealthy and bird-like. Like, I, I- That’s true … picked that out right away. The, the way that she was bending and her bones protruded and her shoulder blades were protruding- Oh

it looked very bird-like right from the very beginning. And I, I just think it’s, you know, it’s a well-done movie. It’s … It got an interesting style. You kind of come to find that that perspective that we were seeing her doing the gymnastics from is the mother filming with her cellphone. And right away I knew that I hated this woman because- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: she’s one of those mom bloggers, which I think is just one of the most disgusting, self-centered, vacuous, child abusive things that parents can do. And it’s, it’s very clear from the beginning that she is cultivating this picture-perfect life. And any time anybody’s doing that, it’s not true. There is always something going on behind the scenes, and I think the movie has a lot to say about that.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But yeah, right from the, right from the get-go I was … It’s like, “Okay, this is interesting. I’m meeting interesting characters. It’s an interesting setup.” I was ready to go. 

Todd: I was laughing out loud when the mother… Of course, it’s so stereotypical, mo- this mother mommy blogger place. These people are in a wealthy neighborhood.

Everything is picture perfect in their house and their yard, outside. The picture is picture perfect. Like, you know, every frame of this movie is really beautiful. And this woman is skirting around, like you said, filming her family. She’s even sitting down with her daughter. Her daughter’s name is Tina, I believe, right?

She sits down with Tina, and they’re going through a new intro video that she’s created that is this, like, sickeningly sweet- highly produced video of the family. Dad gardening out back, and oh, hi, with a little smile, and them skipping through the yard in slow motion and all this stuff. It looks like the intro to some reality TV show or something.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And she says to… I can’t remember if she says it to the camera or if it’s what’s written down, is that these are just days in the life of an average, normal Finnish family. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And I’m like, oh, my God, this is how out of touch these people can often be, right? They’re- Mm-hmm. You know, I, we’re all a little out of touch.

I think we all tend to imagine that we are average, and the way everybody else lives is, you know, weighed off of that. You know, that’s part of the problem why we have a hard time understanding each other sometimes. But- 

Craig: Probably. 

Todd: Yeah, so you know immediately that you’re gonna hate this woman, and she’s gonna be annoying through the whole thing, and also that you, you really start to very early on, I think, hate what she’s starting to put her daughter through.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Her daughter comes home from rehearsals or lessons or something like that. I mean, I know I’m jumping a little ahead in the plot, but I wanted to get to this early, and sees her mom kissing the repairman- 

Craig: Mm-hmm … 

Todd: who’s, like, fixing a light fixture in their house. This was a light fixture that got knocked down when a bird got loose, and we’ll talk about that in a second.

And they turn around. He’s a little embarrassed. Mom acts like it’s nothing. He walks out the door, and Mom later goes into the room with the girl and sits down and says, “So I guess you saw that.” And the girl’s like, “Yeah.” And she says, “You know what? Sometimes adults have special friends.” The girl’s like, “Well, what about Daddy?”

And Mommy says, “Well, you know how Daddy is, but this will be our little girl secret, right?” This actress is so good. You can see the conflicted emotions on her face. 

Craig: The little girl? 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Uh, and by the way, her name is Siri Solle- Sololina, I believe, and this is her acting debut. 

Craig: And she was picked out of a search of, like, well over 1,000 girls.

It was a huge search, yeah, for her casting. 

Todd: Well, they found her because the look on her face throughout a lot of this movie, but especially here, it just says it all. On, on the one hand, she’s a little horrified. She’s not sure what to make of it, but you also know that she’s too young to fully understand it, and she realizes she doesn’t fully understand it, and she loves her mom, and she kind of wants to connect with her, so she kind of smiles and that becomes this thing.

And I was like, “that woman.” I’m like- Yeah, it’s awful. She’s terrible. She’s awful. And, and she immediately goes off on a work trip, which we all know what she’s doing. In fact, her daughter knows what she’s doing, and- H- you know, when the mom goes and talks to the dad a- as she comes home from this work trip, h- the dad’s like, “How was your work trip?”

“Oh, it was fine.” And she looks at her daughter and she winks. This conspiratory little wink to her. Tina just kinda half smiles, and then later in the movie she comes up to her and has a heart-to-heart with her like she is one of her friends at school and says, “You know, I think I’m in love.” And her daughter gets this bright, beaming smile on her face and she says, “Yeah, this guy…”

What is his name? Torvald or something like that. 

Craig: I don’t know. “

Todd: This is the first time I think I’ve ever loved anyone in my whole life.” And of course immediately her face falls, and it’s falling for a couple reasons, right? One is she’s like, “Oh, this isn’t my dad that you’re talking about.” And number two is, “What do you mean you f- you love someone for the first time in your life?

What? What about your family?” 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: I- it’s just so crazy. This woman, she’s so out of touch with her kids. She’s so out of touch with her role as a mother. She’s so self-centered, and she’s trying to bring her daughter in on this like it’s nothing. Oh, I hated her. 

Craig: Yeah. Th- that’s a… Like, that’s a, that’s a thread throughout the…

Like, you just covered one of the movie’s entire threads almost. 

Todd: Yeah, and there’s a lot of threads in this movie. 

Craig: Yeah. All, you know, these little reveals about the mom and how awful she is come along the way, and y- you… It, it is terrible and I felt terrible about it too, and I thought, I know that there are parents like that.

I know that there are parents that manipulate their children, that make them co-conspirators in their- 

Todd: Dalliances … 

Craig: schemes and things. Schemes. Yeah. Yeah, and s- so it is. It’s, it’s awful, and she’s awful for a variety of other reasons, too. It… I also found it awful, you know, ’cause she’s cultivating this blog or whatever and talking about how great her life is, and she’s got this husband who, uh, you know, is average looking but seems like a very nice guy.

Somebody’s providing for that family ’cause they’ve got this huge, enormous house. But, and they, they also have a son who she doesn’t pay any attention to at all. Like, she barely acknowledges his existence, and he kind of acts out because of it. But the other thing that bothered me about that whole relationship thing was eventually the mom, the dad, and Trin- Tinja are sitting at the breakfast table and the mom’s like, “Okay, finish up and then you and I’ll go to such and such’s house,” the, the boyfriend’s house.

And the mom gets up with a big smile on her face and walks away, and the dad looks at the mom and says I’ve always known wh- who your mother is. I’ve always known she’s somebody who’s gonna always go for what she wants. And then something like, “It’s easy to love someone like that.” 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: So he knows. Yeah. And, and he even says, he says, “So and so is a really good man, person.”

Todd: He says that to the daughter. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah, so he knows. So he’s just like a fucking cuck at home while his wife is out banging the handyman, which becomes even more complex because it turns out that the handyman is a really good dude, but we’ve gotten way ahead of ourselves. Yeah. Really, really the first indication that the mom is stone cold is as she’s finishing up this, you know, shoot for her blog in the very beginning, they hear a crash on the window, and Tinja goes to check it out, and there’s a bloody feather there, and a moment later, the window breaks open and a, a crow flies in and, and causes a big disturbance and breaks a bunch of things in the house.

You know, all of the fine glass and things that are around the living room. And eventually Tinja catches it in a blanket and picks it up very tenderly and asks her mom if she should go take it outside. And the mom says, “No, give it to me.” And so she hands it over to her mom very tenderly, and her mom grabs it by the neck and breaks its neck and hands it back and says, “Take it outside.”

Todd: Ugh. 

Craig: And you don’t… You know, it, it’s one thing to put an animal out of their misery, but this is made very clear that she’s doing this because she’s angry. You know, this bird just destroyed her f- glass facade in this room- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: and it’s gonna pay for it. And in the, like you said, in the course of that, even the chandelier falls down, which I thought was a little dramatic, but whatever.

So anyway, Tinja takes it out and puts it in the compost. But sometime, I think it’s later that night, she’s hears screaming. And the screaming of crows, I imagine is something that everybody is familiar with, but if you’ve never heard it, it’s really eerie and strange- Yeah … and, and not at all unlike the screaming of a person.

Mm-hmm. And, and this plays on that. She goes out into the woods in the middle of the night- And finds it, but it’s still injured. So how it got there, I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah. It 

Craig: did. But she makes the merciful decision to put it out of its misery. However, she has to strike it over the head with a rock about 10 times- Yeah

until its head is obliterated before it stops screaming. And as soon as she does that, from behind her a thick fog rolls in, which looked great. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And she looks over and she finds this egg, which at this point is about the size of a chicken egg, and she takes it back into her house and hides it under her pillow, and basically is incubating it, even though not really.

I don’t think a teddy bear’s really gonna incubate an egg, but- 

Todd: No … 

Craig: whatever. 

Todd: Well, I mean, it is a bit of, like it said, surreal, absurdist. We got some magical realism here. 

Craig: For 

Todd: sure. Do you think that egg came from the bird, or that the bird led the girl to the egg? Or- 

Craig: I don’t have any idea. 

Todd: There’s probably no answer for this, right?

It’s just kind of a magical thing. 

Craig: It is just kind of a magical thing, and it’s ultimately, you know, it’s all s- in service of metaphor. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: This gives her something to care for. This is all about, I think, maternity and, you know, mother-daughter relationships and expectations. Right. Like you said, this mother has i- i- ridiculous expectations.

You don’t find out immediately, but you find out eventually that the mother used to be a competitive ice skater, but she injured herself and that injured her career. So now she’s vicariously living through her daughter and forcing her to train to a ridiculous extent in gymnastics in order to compete in gymnastics.

And Tenia seems, you know, like she wants to do it and she wants to please her mother, but she also wants to hang out with friends and stuff, and she’s just not permitted to. But it’s, it’s, it’s never you’re forbidden from it. It’s you want the competition as much as I do, right? So, like- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: a- again, it’s manipulation.

It’s not forbidding her from doing the things that she wants. It’s just guilting her into doing the things that the mom wants instead. 

Todd: Yeah, I see that. And, uh, and I mean, it’s also about, and you kind of mentioned it too, it’s about how we transfer things into our kids. How do, how does what we are like as an adult then rub off on the people that we’re caring for?

And, and, and, you know, the… I think it’s, it’s very literally about, in many ways about just vicariously living through your kids. And that is a thing that I think as a parent I wrestle with. I wanna strike this balance between my expectations and who my kid really is. It’s almost natural, surprisingly natural, for me to just expect that my son is gonna be like me, and that he’s going to be into the things that I was into.

If not just naturally because he’s my son and it’s w- you know, in his DNA or whatnot, but just that he’s exposed to me. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And you know, we bake together, so I expect he’s gonna be into baking. I’ve bought him a magic set and we’ve done magic tricks together, so I expect that just like me at his age he’ll be into magic.

We give him the swimming lessons, and swimming is so big to me, so I just imagine that’s gonna be just as big to him. But when you have to step outside and look at yourself, you go, “Okay, this is stupid,” right? Like, my kid is gonna be who he is. And so I give him these opportunities and I encourage him in his things, but I also give him space to find his own interests as well, and encourage those just as strongly.

Uh, it’s sometimes it’s disappointing. I can’t even explain why it’s disappointing. Oh, I’ll tell you, it’s disappointing that I can’t really sit down and watch a movie that’s remotely scary with him. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: You know, horror movies and scary movies have been a part of my life since I was younger than him.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: It’s something I’ve been drawn to, and he com- he feel, he seems like completely the opposite. He’s, he’s kind of a little scaredy-cat right now, you know? And that’s disappointing ’cause it’s a thing that I can’t do with him that I love so much, that I wanna give him an appreciation for, and he might not ever have an appreciation for it.

So- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: I don’t force it, I don’t push it. This mom is not like that. And then how we go too far in this can kinda give our kids complexes and traumas. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And what happens with this girl is that this egg grows to an enormous size. Uh, was something I wasn’t expecting. You, you know, usually eggs don’t grow.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: It grows to an enormous size that she manages to keep hidden in her bedroom somehow. And once it hatches, what comes out of it- 

Craig: Real quick, though, before it, before it hatches, she makes a physical and presumably psychic connection with it 

Todd: Oh, with her hand on it, yeah. 

Craig: Yes, because her mom forces her to do her aerial routine so many times that her hands are covered in blisters and blood, and she goes home and she cries and she puts her hand, her bloody hand on the egg.

Todd: Oh. 

Craig: And the egg glows from the inside, and you can see the silhouette of a beak. 

Todd: You know what? 

Craig: And from that point on, she kind of has this connection with it and, and right before it hatches, I don’t remember, I think it’s when the mom tells her that sh- this is the first time she’s ever loved somebody, this new guy.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: And- 

Todd: She cries … 

Craig: Tina goes in the room a- and it, the egg is, God, the size of a beanbag chair, a big one at this point, and she lays herself over it and hugs it and cries, and her tears seep into the shell, and that’s when it hatches. 

Todd: I didn’t draw that connection that her hand… I remember the part of her hand and the egg glowing.

I didn’t draw that connection that that was her bloody hand from all of the, the work. And of course I, it was very obvious when the tear came down on the egg that something magical was happening there as well. It’s so literal, right? It’s like the old saying, like we put our blood, sweat and tears into something.

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: Like our, into our- Right … kids, and she literally puts her blood, sweat and tears into this egg just like a mother would do for their child. And, uh, what hatches essentially i- is, is now her child, right? I mean- Right … it’s, it’s a big giant metaphor. She’s the bird. This is the egg she’s been hatching, and now it, it, it looks great.

It’s gross, just like baby birds are gross, but imagine- 

Craig: Yes … 

Todd: a gross little baby bird the size of a gorilla. And that’s the thing that comes out of this egg that she has to secret away. And eventually successfully into her closet and raise 

Craig: Yeah, and it’s the size at this point of, like, a medium to large-sized dog.

Like, it’s, it’s- 

Todd: Oh, yeah … 

Craig: big and it’s, and it’s gross and scary-looking and it’s practical. The creature effects were done by Gustaf Hagen. Do you recognize that name? 

Todd: No. 

Craig: I guess he did the Star Wars sequel trilogy. He designed, I think, BB-8. 

Todd: Oh, wow. No kidding. 

Craig: And Babu Frik. He also worked on Prometheus and Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom.

Yeah, so apparently he’s a pretty big dude. And they were insistent on keeping this thing practical. And it goes through various stages and it does look like a baby bird and baby birds are disgusting, but it- it’s not strictly bird-like from the beginning. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: I, I don’t know. There’s something just…

There’s something a little bit off about… Well, first of all, it has human teeth so that’s- Oh, 

Todd: yeah … 

Craig: pretty off. 

Todd: That part’s off. 

Craig: It has a beak, but in the beak it also has human teeth, so there’s already something weird. And of course it kind of freaks out in the beginning. Oh, what else was I gonna say about it?

Oh, the design of it, though, you can see right from the very beginning is super reminiscent of that opening shot of the girl when she was bent, hunched over and you could see every bone in her back and her shoulder blades. It looks so much like that. And I read that the designers wanted the bird i- initially to be everything that Tinya could not be.

She had to be perfect and her, you know, graceful, and her lines had to be perfect and her posture had to be perfect. And so they wanted this thing hunched and kind of mangled as a super, super stark contrast, which is smart and makes perfect sense moving forward. But it does look really good. As far as I’ve read, it’s almost exclusively puppets and animatronics.

Man. It took, like, five or six guys to control the puppet at one time. It goes away f- she’s scared of it at first. It breaks out the window, but the same night it comes back and comes inside and, like, kind of, it doesn’t speak, but it kind of shows her that it’s injured. A shard of glass from the window has gone through its arm, and so she pulls that out, and then they kind of bond.

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: You know, I guess, and, and she strokes its head and, but it stinks, so she gives it a bath. And I read that they had to shoot that bath scene last because they knew that it was probable that water was gonna get in and mess up the animatronics, and it did. Oh. And it killed it, so that’s why they had to film that last.

It was a really cute scene, and I feel like we’ve seen, we’ve seen movies like this before where a child has encountered some sort of creature that they don’t understand, but it’s theirs and they wanna protect it and they feel some connection. I mean, E.T. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Uh, th- this is E- this is E.T. for a minute. 

Todd: It is E.T.

in a way, yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, so, a- and it, and it’s kinda sweet, and she wants to care for this thing and nurture it, and it wants to be nurtured, and they caress one another and they sleep together and- 

Todd: They do … 

Craig: but that idyllic part of it doesn’t last long at all. 

Todd: No. There’s some really gross things in here that definitely add to the el- horror element.

The bird comes in like, like animals do with kind of an offering for her, and that ends up being, like, a decapitated dog. It w- it turns out to be the neighbor’s dog. 

Craig: That dog, I told you. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. That’s how you said you knew there was a s- 

Craig: Well, and that’s an important scene, too, because Tina’s l- sleeping in bed, and the bird is, too, but then the bird wakes up and we see from its point of view, but we also see that Tina, though she’s still sleeping in her bed, appears to be seeing from that point of view as well.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like, she’s s- she’s seeing what happens, and it’s only at the point of the kill that she kind of snaps awake to find the bird hovering over her- And it, like, spits some sh- stuff out of its beak all over her face, like this gooey crap. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then, like, tilts its beak, like indicating her look over there, and she turns her head, and there’s that decapitated bleeding dog all over her bed.

Mm-hmm. And so that makes her barf, and then the bird gets down and eats the barf. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s so gross. It’s so disgusting. And the bird she names Allie, I think, at some point, right? After a song that her mom is singing? 

Craig: Yeah, the mom sings them a lullaby. 

Todd: There’s all this gross stuff, but then like you said, we’re getting these odd point of view shots, and gosh, we’ve seen this before, too, where somebody forms a psychic connection with an animal, and then suddenly we’re seeing…

They, they find that they’re seeing through their eyes every now and then, like in- 

Craig: Monkey Shines. 

Todd: Yeah, Monkey Shines. That’s the one. So yeah, so this is happening, too, and she’s also getting visions of her mother sleeping and these clawed hands going over her mother’s face, but they seem more human than this bird is.

There are just so many interesting things happening here. But it’s all, it’s all unfolding very deliberately. 

Craig: Yeah. The bird evolves relatively quickly, but it seems… The bird seems to want to target things that have in some way slighted or that it perceives to have slighted Tina. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: That dog bit Tina.

Now, that was before the bird was even around, but I guess because Tina knows, it knows. That dog bit her, so it gets the boot. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: The mom is a bitch and is causing Tina suffering through this pressure to be thin and to be perfect and all of that. The next threat, I think, well, and again, it’s still kind of evolving, like, uh, at, at one point it almost goes after the brother ’cause the brother rats her out about the dog.

Todd: The brother who’s wearing a mask that is not really explained but looks a lot like an egg. That’s true. I hadn’t thought about that. And he, yeah, he rats her out because he sees her burying the corpse in the back. So he goes out, and he just digs it up and brings it in, presents it to the parents, and says, “Tina killed this dog.”

And they’re like, “Come on, Tina didn’t kill the dog. Look at this thing. It was obviously gutted by an animal. Go away.” Later, the brother starts to investigate and again, he sneaks into her room and does open up eventually the door to her closet where this thing is, and sees this thing. He’s wearing his m- protective egg mask, but then when he goes to see it, the egg is, like, in two, right?

Like, like he’s torn his mask in two? 

Craig: It’s under the bed. 

Todd: Oh, it was under the bed. It was under the bed. 

Craig: And, and he, he looks under the bed, and he’s just staring. He can’t see anything in the darkness, but then that clawed hand comes out and slashes at his face. Slashes the 

Todd: mask. Ah, that’s right. Mm-hmm. And but he’s still kind of opening it up.

It’s like a cracked egg. 

Craig: Yeah, that’s true. 

Todd: You know, he’s kind of peering out from, from behind it, you know, at them. They’re these little- 

Craig: That’s relatively obvious, and I can’t believe I didn’t notice. But yes, but the, in the meantime, Tina’s in the living room with her parents, and she begins seizing. Like, she knows what’s happening, and her body begins seizing.

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And, and she’s, you know, pa- I- I assume terrified but out of control as this creature kind of approaches her brother, but her mother slaps her, which brings her out of her seizure and I guess makes Allie go away. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s- 

Craig: Because when the brother opens his eyes, it’s gone. 

Todd: This is sort of the first indication, I believe, that we have that some injury or something that happens to Tina can also affect Allie in that moment.

So it’s like a two-way thing. Not only is she kind of seeing through the bird’s eyes and the bird’s doing things for her, but, like, if she gets hit or kicked or something like that, it seems to affect the bird. 

Craig: Yeah, and it becomes… You know, I think it becomes pretty evident, I don’t think they’re trying to hide it from us at this point, that it is becoming a doppelganger thing.

They do, they are psychically connected- Mm-hmm … in some way, and as the bird evolves, one of the first things is it starts to lose feathers and starts to grow long blonde hair. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like you said, eventually its hand, though it still kind of has talons for nails, looks more like human hands. Eventually, it asks…

A- again, it doesn’t speak, but, like, it paws at Tina’s dress, and Tina’s like, “Are you cold?” And so she puts it in clothes. And at that point, it’s human enough looking that as it kind of crawls through the house, the brother sees it and thinks it’s Tina- Yeah … but it’s also somewhat monstrous, so he just kind of runs away.

It’s clear what’s happening. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But it really doesn’t… I feel like when the major evolution comes is when the, the neighbor’s name, the little girl next door, her name is Renna, right? 

Todd: Rita? No, Rita, I 

Craig: think. Maybe. 

Todd: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Anyway, she’s very nice. She’s gone out of her way to befriend Tina. She’s been nothing but kind and supportive.

Todd: And they’re kind as kind back. Yes. You know? It’s not like this is, like, some rival of hers, right? 

Craig: Oh, no, no, not at all. 

Todd: In her eyes, anyway. 

Craig: Right. Only, only in that, you know, unfortunately they are in the same gymnastics troupe, and there are only a certain number of spots, and Renna, or whatever her name is, is just better.

She just is, you know? For whatever reason. It’s n- nobody’s fault. She’s just better. Mm-hmm. And she doesn’t, she doesn’t gloat about it. Like, she’s not a bully or anything. She just does her thing. She’s supportive of Tina. She helps Tina. She’s a great kid. So I knew she was in trouble. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it, it comes down to, you know, it’s the, you know, the last i- idea, s- uh, tryout before the competition or whatever, and Renna does much better than Tina.

And Tina and Renna are having a friendly conversation, and the mom approaches and was like, “Oh, Renna, found your dog yet?” She’s such a- 

Todd: Is she? … 

Craig: see you next Tuesday. And then she’s like, “Well, Renna, you did a great job. I guess it just means that Trin- Tina’s gonna have to work that much harder to beat you.”

Like- Mm … she’s trying to build a rift between these girls. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And even if it’s not conscious, even if it’s subconscious She puts it in Tina’s mind that Rena is her competition. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And Tina immediately knows that that puts her at risk. The mom offers Rena a ride home, but Rena insists that she wants to walk, and Tina is concerned about it, as well she should be, because as Rena is walking home, she feels that she’s being followed, and she turns around and looks around and eventually she turns around and there’s a monstrous version of Tina standing before her.

Looks like a girl w- whose the bottom half of their face has been ripped off. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s really gross. Ugh. I mean, and y- we all saw this coming. We really did. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: right. And she goes to bring her flowers at the hospital, Tina does, and when she gets there- 

Craig: Because she’s not killed, which d- which surprised me 

Todd: Yeah, I thought she was gonna die, and she didn’t.

She was just completely butchered. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: Her, her face has been sewn up, and her, she’s lost her- 

Craig: She’s lost at least one hand … 

Todd: yeah, which means she’s never gonna be doing gymnastics again, which is- Right … horrible. Tina comes home and she confronts Allie in a way and slaps herself and cries, and Allie starts comforting her while she’s crying.

That was surprising to me, because in this point it’s like Allie’s the mom and Tina’s not. That was a little jarring to me. I was not sure how to take this bit. Except Allie kind of knows what it’s doing, right? It’s like a creature that’s, that has intelligence. But, but in a way the metaphor is sort of that she is her, Tina’s, I guess, doppelganger, right, by this point.

Craig: I think, yeah, I think doppelganger. And I think also that part of the metaphor is that they comfort one another because they are two sides of the same coin. Mm-hmm. Like, they re- they really are one person. I, I think that- Maybe Alli represents everything that the mother was trying to repress in Tinja. You know, I, I read somewhere that this movie is commentary that people s- outside of Finland might not fully recognize because they don’t…

Apparently it’s very Finnish to keep your dirty laundry private. You know, only present, only present your best self. 

Todd: Ah, I see. 

Craig: Um- So 

Todd: this is like the hidden self that’s being repressed. 

Craig: I think that’s what it’s meant to be. Like, you know, the wild screaming part, the passionate, uncontrollable part. 

Todd: Oh, that makes sense because Tinja is remarkably controlled and calm.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: I was shocked at how there was never a scene where Tinja goes ape on her mom or talks back to her mom, or even shows, like, strong emotions when she’s obviously, like, for example, messing up and at gymnastics and things like that. I mean, she’s clearly frustrated, but there’s none of that high drama stuff that you kind of would expect this to be going towards.

She’s even-keeled. But coming home and crying and being comforted by Alli and, and punishing Alli for doing these things, but also, you know, taking care of Alli and keeping Alli hidden. 

Craig: Well, you’re right, and that’s y- uh, uh I, I, I’m sure there’s something to speak to the metaphor here too, but she’s torn between caring for this thing that she feels a connection to, but also- Keeping it in line

keeping it in line and, and, and not destroying her own life. 

Todd: Which is so much like being a parent. 

Craig: Right? Right, right, right. And, and eventually the mom takes Tina to Taro’s house. 

Todd: Ugh. 

Craig: And he lives in this big, old- Looks like gothic- … looks like gothic … mansion from the 

Todd: outside. 

Craig: It does, but apparently he’s a sexy handyman and he’s gonna fix this place up, and the mom is just in love, and she’s in love with it, and it turns out that he is a widower who also has a baby girl.

And the second I saw that, I was like, “Oh, no.” And, and the mom immediately begins fawning all over it and how perfect and beautiful and special it is. And like you said, this young actress who plays Tina is incredibly talented. It’s really difficult to show believable, subtle changes just by making those changes in your face.

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: There aren’t a lot of people who are really gifted enough to do that, and you can really see just a wave of emotion and understanding and realization go over her, what this means. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: There’s a new baby in town. There’s a new little girl in town. I haven’t been performing up to standard. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Any connection that she had to her mom before is gonna be lost to this new baby.

The gross mom’s already, you know, talking to the baby like, “Mommy loves you.” Like, ugh. 

Todd: Oh, yeah. So disgusting. It’s terrible. But you can tell Tina also knows this is gonna be a problem. 

Craig: Right, because Allie shows up. 

Todd: Allie does. Allie shows up, and Tina’s doing her routine, I think, right? She’s doing her gymnastics routine.

Craig: Well, I think she… No, she shows up before that. Well, I mean, I don’t know how important this is, but, uh, the guy, Taro, actually does turn out to be a really good guy, which makes me question why he’s with this horrible woman. I don’t understand that. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s hard to understand. 

Craig: He shows Tina kindness and silliness and fun and, and you don’t have to be perfect, and he’s very kind and accepting of her.

Uh, you know, in another situation, maybe he could have been a good influence in her life. But unfortunately, Allie shows up. Uh, like, Tina, Tina knows it’s a problem because as they’re leaving, the mom’s like, “Come on, we gotta go to the competition,” and she’s like, “Wait, aren’t Taro and the baby coming with us?”

And she’s like, “No, they’re not coming. They’re staying here.” And she’s like, “No, no, they have to come with us.” 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: And as they, as they drive away, she looks back and sees Taro just standing there in the driveway holding the baby, and she knows, she knows that it’s trouble. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it is because Allie immediately creeps into the baby’s room with- With a- 

Todd: A hatchet

a hatchet. Yeah. Oh my God. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: This was intense. I don’t know. I d- I don’t know if I ever believed for a second that baby was gonna die, but I was… I wasn’t sure. 

Craig: I wasn’t sure either. 

Todd: And Tina is, uh, in the middle of her routine, and she sees the flash of what Allie’s doing, and again, because this is the only way she can control it, she sacrifices hersel- she basically sacrifices her competition by deliberately falling from the high bar.

And she injures her wrist, and that, you know, knocks the hatchet out of the, out of, uh, Allie’s hand and, and then… Oh, God, there… I forgot there was so much more to this movie. Tarot, does Tarot come in at this point? Yeah, he, he ends up coming in, uh, while they’re nursing Allie’s hand at… I’m sorry, while they’re nursing Tina’s hand at the competition.

Tarot hears a noise, and he comes into the baby’s room and sees this kid that looks a hell of a lot like Tina crawling out the window and this hatchet on the floor, picks up the baby. Now, Tarot has been exposed to this creature too, but he is now going to be confusing it with Tina because it’s Tina’s gop- doppelganger.

It looks a lot like her. 

Craig: Yeah. It looks a lot like her, and, and again, the actress does a great job of playing this kind of wild character also. Her, her eyes are cloudy. Her hair is wild and dirty. 

Todd: It’s so Linda Blair, man. It looks so much like Exorcist. 

Craig: Yeah. She sh- she’s got these, um, scars where her skin…

We forgot to mention that after the Retta attack, Allie found the beak in, in the closet, like, she sh- she shed the beak and her skin has come together, but there are still scars there from where it’s come together, and she still has those talons. So they’re played by the same actress. They look a lot alike.

I found it a little… I don’t know, you don’t… I don’t look at movies like this and expect them to be believable. But when Tarot confronts them when they get back from the competition, he’s like, “What the fuck is wrong with you?” to Tina. And the mom’s like, “Hey, hey, what’s going on?” And he says, “I don’t know.

She tried to kill the baby or something.” And the mom’s like, “What are you talking about? She’s been with me- 

Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: the whole time.” 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he looks confused, but he basically shrugs his shoulders and says, “Well, I don’t know, but she’s got some serious issues, and I don’t wanna deal with them. You all need to leave.”

I guess the mom goes in to get their stuff. It seems like some significant time passes because it’s light outside when the mom goes indoors, and it’s dark outside when she comes back out. And she gets in the car, and she sits there for a second, and then she just starts screaming and smashing her face against- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: the steering wheel until she stops and composes herself. But her face is all beaten up. There’s blood everywhere. And she turns to Tina and says, “I thought you’d at least let me be happy.” Like, ugh. You nasty woman. 

Todd: In a way it’s, you know, it’s like she’s also, she’s hurting herself in order to try to control her daughter, just like Tinja has to f- hurt herself in order to control her, her pet.

Craig: I guess. 

Todd: I don’t- There’s just so many interesting parallels and metaphor things happening here. Yeah, we skip that scene and it doesn’t matter, but we skip that scene where Tero tries to go into Tinja’s room to talk to her and she ends up seeing- Mm … the doppelganger instead and mistakes it for her, gets his hand slammed in the door, all this stuff.

He is remarkably calm and understanding of this girl. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Even when he sees her, I mean, it looks pretty monstrous when she’s when she’s snarling at him through the crack in the door. Well, and she’s, she’s 

Craig: eating a bowl of the other girl’s vomit. 

Todd: Ugh. Yeah. Oh my God, and she’s The Ring. You know, she’s all Sadako on the floor.

Craig: Yes, yes. Uh-huh. 

Todd: Crouched down at unnatural angles and scurrying towards him. I mean, how could this guy think that was her? Or how could he approach her the next day- I know … going, “There seems to be something troubling you. What could it be?” Like, “No. You seem to be possessed from time to time, and I don’t know what’s going on.”

But it’s a, it’s a big moment when he sees the both of them together. I think, um, what happens is the mother is, go, enters Tinja’s room, thinks that that creature is Tinja, and starts brushing her hair. 

Craig: What was interesting to me was the mom comes home, she’s covered in blood, her face is covered in blood, but the way that I read it was that her plan is back to plan A.

The boyfriend was plan B, plan B didn’t work out, bla- back to plan A as though nothing happened. 

Todd: Yep, they go back home. 

Craig: Uh-huh. She walks in, she kisses her husband, gets blood all over his face, goes and starts making herself up and pr- preparing, you know, for the next blog. But at this point, Alli does look enough like Tinja that she’s fooling the other family members.

Like, the dad sees her in the yard, and I think the brother sees her, or the dad also sees her, like, sitting in the closet, but he doesn’t say anything to her. But you’re right, it is the, uh, the mom is brushing Alli’s hair and She’s brushing it so hard that she pulls a chunk of her scalp off. That was weird to me because I didn’t know if it was meant that Allie is somehow more fragile than a human would be, or if the mother is so horrible that she would’ve ripped Tina’s scalp off if necessary.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Anyway, when she rips it off, Allie screams and, and turns around and confronts her and, and that’s when Tina comes in and, and I think gets in between them and tackles Allie to the ground, and then the mom is confronted with the both of them. 

Todd: Yeah. And, uh, God, I guess it’s just kinda chaos, right? At this point, Tina kinda says it’s all because of Allie.

Allie runs aw- has run out, so they’re all hunting Allie down. 

Craig: I think Allie is, like, injured somehow. 

Todd: Well, Mom stabs i- Allie in the leg, which also makes Tina fall down. 

Craig: But, but, but Tina says, “I, I just, I just want it to go away.” And then the mom becomes resolved, and, like, grabs Tina and takes her down to the kitchen where they get giant knives.

They meet the father and the son in the hallway, who really have nothing, have no idea what’s going on, even though the son’s like, “I told you so,” ’cause he had told them that he had seen her as a monster earlier and they didn’t believe. And she’s like, “Yes, honey, you were right. I’m sorry.” And she says to the father and the son, whom we haven’t mentioned dress just alike and look just alike, like comically so.

Todd: Oh, yeah. 

Craig: It, it’s so stupid. But you can totally tell that the mother has dressed them to look that way. But anyway, the mom says something to them like, “There’s something in the house. You can’t ask what it was, but we have to get rid of it, and you need to go away.” And so they just do. And so then the mom and Tina go looking for Allie with these big knives, and in the moment I was thinking, “I hope that this isn’t the movie trying to redeem the mother.”

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: Trying to here in the final act say, “Oh, look, her mother in- her motherly instincts are kicking in, and she’s going to protect her daughter no matter what it takes.” 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: And I don’t think at all that that is what the message is, but I was worried for a second that it might be. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I think it’s something else entirely.

Todd: Hmm. No, I agree with you. Yeah. 

Craig: Because the, the way, the way that it goes down Is, you know, they, they do event- they find Allie, and she’s pretty much defenseless 

Todd: Well, Allie kind of overpowers her for a little bit, but m- so she’s kind of on top of the mother and she’s got her jaw open and all this stuff.

But Mom, uh, has that knife in her 

Craig: hand. The, the, the… Allie, Allie extends her jaw. 

Todd: Yeah, and, and the mom stabs it in the leg, which makes Tina fall down. Tina’s, like, explaining everything, but Mom standing there getting ready to approach Allie. I think Tina’s almost, is trying to defend Allie, is trying to, in a way, just…

She doesn’t want Mom- She’s 

Craig: saying, “No, no, no.” 

Todd: Yeah, she doesn’t want Mom to kill Allie, kind of like, you know, she killed the bird. 

Craig: Right. Right. 

Todd: But Mom attacks it. But Tina has stepped in front of Mother at this point. And instead of stabbing at Allie, she has stabbed Tina right in the heart- 

Craig: Mm-hmm … 

Todd: and is horrified Doesn’t run off to call an ambulance or anything like that.

Just sits there screaming, “No, no, no,” while her daughter doubles over, slowly falls to the ground. Tina collapses onto Allie and is dying, and her blood falls from her chest, her mouth, I guess, into the creature’s mouth. 

Craig: I think 

Todd: her mouth. Yeah, and it’s going into the creature’s- 

Craig: Yeah, ’cause it, ’cause it mimics that, the feeding.

You know, like the regurgitating feeding. 

Todd: And the other people walk into the room, and basically what happens… And this was such a great ending. Suddenly Allie comes up and is almost fully transformed now to look like Tina, and pushes Tina’s corpse aside, says, “Mother,” and stands up, and then cut to credits.

Looking down on her mom at this point. It, I mean, God, what does this mean? I mean, we know what it means, is that, that now their daughter has been replaced by this new creature. 

Craig: Right, but is it a new creature, or is it just- 

Todd: Her in a new form, right? Her maturing, right? Is this her- 

Craig: Yeah … 

Todd: is this all kind of a metaphorically through puberty kind of situation?

I think it kinda is. 

Craig: I think it kind of is too, and- 

Todd: She’s come into her own and, uh, learned to stand up for herself, and now she’s not gonna be dominated by her mom and stuff anymore. 

Craig: Well, and, and her mother has killed the girl that she wanted Tina to be. 

Todd: Right. Yeah. The one she groomed. 

Craig: Yeah, but maybe that’s not entirely bad.

Like, that’s the other thing. Like, it’s bad that Allie kills things and people- 

Todd: Right … 

Craig: obviously, but I don’t necessarily think that it’s… I don’t think that Allie is the villain of the movie. I think the mom is the villain of the movie. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: I think, you know, this entire experience is predicated on the way that she treated Allie.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And again, you know, this is, uh, it’s, it’s a metaphorical fantastical representation of something. I think that it’s probably not at all uncommon that an overbearing parent will kill the person that they wanted their child to be by insisting upon it, and by being- 

Todd: Yeah 

Craig: You know 

Todd: Overbearing. 

Craig: If you’re overbearing and you push, and you push, and you push, and you push, and you push, and you take all the joy out of whatever it is, gymnastics, w- uh, whatever it is, then yeah, you’re not gonna get the result that you want.

In fact, you’re probably gonna get something that pushes against that directly. It’s a strong metaphor, I think, and a creative and interesting one. I don’t think that I’ve seen this kind of parental relationship explored in this kind of way before. I like the idea of the doppelganger and the dual nature.

Yeah, overall, I left feeling very satisfied. You know, I, I, I think there’s, uh, like you said, stuff you could relate the body horror to puberty even especially in a young girl. By the way, in the initial pitch for this movie, it was a young boy, but they immediately decided to make it a girl because they thought that would be more effective, and I think that’s right.

Yeah. I think, um, m- the mother-daughter dynamic is very complex and- 

Todd: Yeah. It’s better. It’s very complex and also helps to mirror the Tina and her m- doppelganger as a mother to this thing’s, yeah, dynamic as well. 

Craig: Right. Right, right, right, right. Even, even the, the vomiting, you know, could be e- especially in this competitive world where she’s encouraged to stay ridiculously lean, you know, obviously there’s eating disorder stuff going on there.

You know, uh, there’s all kinds… There’s, there’s commentary on the way that we, as I think all of us or the vast majority of us are guilty of, of cultivating, you know, what we put out for public consumption and the difference between that and reality, which is often stark So yeah, I think it’s a smart movie.

I, I understand why it got, um, so much attention. I, I wish it had gotten a little bit more attention in the States. It’s… You can find it. I thought it was streaming for free, but apparently I was wrong or apparently wherever it was streaming it, it’s not anymore. But you can rent it for relatively cheap on all of the streaming platforms, and I would recommend it.

I think it’s a really good watch. 

Todd: Yeah. I, I agree. It’s a beautiful movie. It’s really well shot. It’s very compelling. When I said it was slow, I just meant the, the plot moves slowly. It’s a simple plot that’s told over time. It’s not, it’s not… Its pacing is not bad. Its pacing is, I think, very appropriate.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And it really allows us to sit and think about what’s happening. So many movies that we watch are just slam bang, whatever, like you don’t get to marinate in them- Right … like you get to marinate in this movie. And being so s- 

Craig: It’s quieter, yeah. I, I imagine that may have something to do… I think in America we are loud, and we want- Mm-hmm

action packed, and I, I think that- In 

Todd: Finland. 

Craig: I- i- in Finland and, and specifically independent filmmakers, you know, have more freedom to be a little bit quieter and a little bit more subtle, and I, I actually find that really refreshing. 

Todd: Well, it gives your brain room to think and make connections and really consider what you’re watching and what it means, and, and I really like that about this movie.

There was… There were layers of meaning in here. Like, you just listed off a number of different things you can take away from it, different ways the, the, the metaphors are working in here. It’s something that you just kind of naturally… If you’re watching the movie thoughtfully, you’ll pick up on all this.

You might have to think about it a little bit afterwards, but nobody’s gonna have to really explain this to you too deeply. 

Craig: No. 

Todd: You’re, you’re… You’ve got time and space to really let the movie wash over you and let those themes come at you naturally. It’s not being spoon-fed at you, but it’s definitely out there in your face.

I, I love it. I, I just, I love movies like this. Boy, back in the early days we did one, what was it called? Goodnight Mother. Do you remember that one? 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Also I think a Scan- Was it Scandinavian or French? Another European film- 

Craig: I don’t remember … 

Todd: that reminded me a lot of this in that it’s a little slowly, very creepy.

It feels a little magical, a little, a little surreal at times, and it’s got a pretty bleak ending as well as I remember, and it has a lot to do with, um- You know, the relationship between mothers and their, and their kids 

Craig: Yes, and in some ways stylistically, it reminded me a lot of Excision. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: You know, Excision isn’t necessarily about a doppelganger, but it certainly explores duality, you know, with that- 

Todd: Yes

Craig: Annalyn McCord, you know, in her fantasy life being this vixen, murderous, you know, bloody vixen as opposed to her day-to-day life and, you know, all of the, y- the mother. Who was that? Stacey Lords? Is 

Todd: that who 

Craig: that was? 

Todd: Was it Tracy Lord? Yeah, Tracy Lords. You’re 

Craig: right. Tra- Tracy Lords. Mm-hmm. Tracy Lords, the mom, and she, you know, she is creating this picture perfect life for all of them and yeah, it reminded me a lot of that, not just in theme, but a little bit in style as well.

Todd: Yeah. It was great. Well yeah, I recommend it as well. And thank you guys for, uh, tuning in. If you’ve seen this movie and you enjoyed it and would recommend it, drop us a line and let us know. Or if you think we’re way off, drop us a line and let us know that. You can just Google Two Guys and a Chainsaw Podcast.

Find our website, chainsawhorror.com. You’ll find our Instagram, Facebook pages, also our Patreon page. Think about subscribing to us for five bucks a month, and you can get unlimited access to all of our unedited phone calls and, uh, also book club, and we’ve got a back catalog of mini-sodes up there, and just more of a direct pipeline to us if you’re back there on the Patreon page.

Until next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We head back into giallo territory with Lucio Fulci’s notorious 1982 slasher, The New York Ripper, to see if its reputation for brutality lives up to the hype.

We talk through Fulci’s stylized approach, the gritty early ’80s New York locations, and how the film’s sleaze and eroticized violence make it a challenging watch, especially with its mean-spirited tone toward women.

Along the way we unpack the duck-voiced killer calls, the procedural investigation, the disjointed plotting, and the extreme gore effects—particularly the razor-blade murder and eye trauma. We also cover the film’s reveal involving Peter, his hospitalized daughter, a dead-end suspect, and the bleak final moments that leave the story on a dark note.

Episode 485, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. This week, thought we’d go back to the giallo genre. It’s more of a slasher really, but from one of our favorite giallo artists, Lucio Fulci, known as being one of the gorier of the Italian directors back in the, uh, ’70s and ’80s.

This is one of his later ones, 1982, The New York Ripper. The- I’ve been wanting to do this one forever because it is fairly notorious as being one of his most brutal movies. People say it’s one of his most brutal and sadistic ones, and so I was just really curious to see if it lived up to the hype. So here we are.

Craig, uh, had you heard of this one before or seen it? 

Craig: Nope. Didn’t know anything about it. 

Todd: That’s what I figured. You really don’t dive into these Italian movies like I do, do you? You’re not as into them. 

Craig: No, not typically, but I do appreciate you bringing them in every once in a while because I wouldn’t see them otherwise.

I respect the genre and I think that these filmmakers make some really interesting and innovative choices, and I think that they inspired a lot of the more contemporary directors and filmmakers that I have a lot of admiration for. So I, you know, I appreciate it as a genre. Is it my go-to? No, certainly not.

And to be very fair, of the ones that we’ve watched, this is not my favorite. There have been some that I have genuinely enjoyed or at least, you know, thought, “Oh, that’s interesting.” A- a- and that’s not to say that I don’t find this one interesting. I do find it interesting, but, you know, I think the way that I tend to approach the podcast specifically, and that probably reflects the way that my mind works, is that I think of things in a more linear way.

Like I sometimes feel like I have to try to be like, “But, but Todd, Todd, you’re jumping to the end. Let’s, let’s walk through it.” 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: sometimes. And, 

Todd: and- You don’t like me talking about things ahead of time. 

Craig: And with a movie like this, I found that very difficult because honestly, I didn’t really know what was going on.

I, even up until the end of the movie, I was like, “Who is the main character of this movie?” Like, I don’t- Really? Yeah, I found it to be a little confusing, and I’ve, you know, since then read a lot about it and read that, you know, that’s kind of a giallo thing. It’s especially kind of a Fulci thing, like he’s not necessarily interested as much in a linear plot as he is in interesting and creative and artistic scenes and- 

Todd: Blood and gore, and violence against women.

Craig: Yeah. A- and blood and gore and, and yeah, and, and I, and I get it. I do get it. I think it’s interesting. I understand why people have talked about it because I, I do think it’s interesting to talk about, but it was a challenge For me. In fact, we were supposed to talk about this movie last week, and circumstances didn’t allow that.

And so I watched this movie last week, and after I was done watching it, I thought, “I don’t get it. I don’t really remember anything about it.” And so when we were intended to reconvene this weekend, I got up very early this morning and watched the second half of it again, and I was like, “I, I, I mean, I, I, I guess I have a better grasp of who some of these people are, but I’m still not really sure I get it.”

Todd: Interesting. You know, that’s fair, and you’re absolutely right. A lot of these movies don’t concern themselves very much with a plot that makes sense. Oftentimes, uh, there’s a lot of, there’s weird twists in logic and leaps of, “Oh, come on,” you know, type movie logic and especially in the investigative aspect of it.

So many of these giallos are basically there’s a masked killer, and he’s going around killing people, and we never see his face, but we see his hands a lot, and we see a lot of stabbing, a lot of blood, a lot of gore. And eventually, the cop or the detective or the man who happened to witness it, who’s been pulled in on the case is going through lots of different clues or from body to body to try to sort out and get close to who the killer is.

Often there’s a twist, and, you know, I mean, these are formulas for most movies anyway, right? Like, this isn’t unique to giallo, of course. 

Craig: No, no, no. I mean, I, I think there is a foundation of, like, crime procedural here. 

Todd: This one is very much a crime procedural. 

Craig: Yeah, but it’s very stylized. It’s, it’s far more stylized, and, and I feel like the focus is more on the style than the story.

Yeah. And that’s okay. I just, I… That’s not the way that my mind typically processes things, so it was just a challenge for me. 

Todd: Okay, that’s fair. I’m kinda surprised to hear you say that because I, I honestly felt like this was one of the easiest to follow of the giallos that we’ve seen. I’m not trying to…

I don’t know. I maybe I was just- Okay. 

Clip: Well, sorry. 

Todd: Well, I mean, be- because it was so standard crime procedural, I mean, you could kind of predict exactly what was gonna happen at each moment. It’s like a girl gets killed, and then- 

Craig: Well, yeah, you could predict that a girl’s gonna get cut up every 10 minutes, but I didn’t know who it was or why.

And like- 

Todd: Most of them were randos. 

Craig: Well, w- were they? I mean, they were all- Like beautiful women- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: for the most part that I recall. Gosh, I have so many things to say. I w- I came into this saying I, I don’t have anything to say about this movie. 

Todd: Well, I, I woke you up. I guess my little, my little dig at you really got you going, didn’t it?

Craig: It did. It did. Now you got a- That, I, that was something else that I think maybe kind of took me out was that it felt mean. Yeah. Like, it felt- 

Todd: This is a mean-spirited movie, I think. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I don’t know. I, uh, no more necessarily exploitive than other movies that we’ve seen. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: But I, I don’t know.

It just… 

Todd: I don’t know, man. I, 

Craig: this one- It’s, I don’t know. It, it felt like Fulci… If I didn’t know it was him, and we’ve seen other movies that he’s done, and he’s always very graphic, and y- you know, there’s nudity and violence, and there was just something about this that made me think, “Oh, this guy hates women.”

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Especially attractive women. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: He wants to hurt them. Why does he wanna hurt these women so badly? And, like, it wasn’t, for me, enjoyable to watch. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: And it, it, it also felt, one scene in particular, and it’s nearer the end of the movie, so we can wait to talk about it, but it, it, because the violence felt not only very graphic And mean, but also eroticized.

Yeah. And that really bothered me. Like- 

Todd: We’re not fans of sexual violence, 

Craig: yeah. No. And it wasn’t like, it wasn’t rape. It wasn’t even overtly sexual. I, I’m just gonna say it, the woman’s nipples were hard as rocks, and I’m like, I don’t know. As her breasts were being, like, sliced up with a razor blade. 

Todd: Right.

Craig: Maybe it was just very cold in the room. I don’t know. But that, I found that to be very unsettling. 

Todd: Distasteful. 

Craig: D- y- yeah. Yeah. I, I didn’t like that. I don’t know. I, I didn’t hate the movie overall, but there were certain parts of it that I just found distasteful to me, and that’s just my sensibilities.

That’s not to say that anybody else who, yourself included, who may have enjoyed the movie overall, I’m, I don’t think you’re a gross perv. I, it, it was just, I didn’t like certain aspects of it. 

Todd: I gotcha. Uh, well, Fulci himself gets a lot of flack for, uh, being a bit misogynistic, and people who’ve worked with him have said they’re s- kind of surprised at how misogynistic towards women he is.

Although women who have worked with him on his sets have said that he’s lovely to work with. 

Craig: Well, good. I’m glad to hear it. 

Todd: Yeah. In his art, anyway, you know, in the scripts that he co-writes and writes and the movies he directs, it’s almost entirely violence towards women. But to be fair, isn’t that 90% of the slasher genre that’s out there?

Yes, yes. So, you know, take that into consideration. However, what you’re saying is w- this, this exists on a spectrum, and I would say this movie is definitely at the extreme end. It, there were times that felt very porny. More porny in this movie than a lot of, most of the giallos we see, actually. There’s a live sex show happening.

There’s guys getting ready to rape a woman. There’s a woman tied up as she’s being cut up, and like you said, w- they’re being cut up. The woman gets cut up towards the end. W- as she’s lying naked on bed, just as close up as you can get. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Almost reveling in the blood and the gore as this razor blade slashes slowly and deliberately and carefully across, yeah, her erect nipple as well as other parts.

And it’s, it is, it’s difficult to watch. I mean, it should be, but that’s the point of the movie, right? And I think The New York Ripper, I was looking forward to this because a lot of these giallos take place in Italy or in Europe somewhere, mostly in Italy. And part of what I really like about them is seeing the old ’70s Italy, and the girls, and the, the dresses they’re wearing, and the hairstyles, and the sets, and all that stuff.

I, I dig that. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Occasionally they’ll try to set them somewhere else, but then they’ll sub in Italy for whatever city they’re in. Like, “Oh, we’re in Chicago,” but it’s really not, clearly not Chicago. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Here it’s pretty obvious they filmed a good portion of the movie in New York because there’s a lot more exteriors than just establishing shots here.

There’s a lot on the streets, there’s a lot of the city, there’s a lot of the bay. And that part I really liked. I thought that, that set it apart from a lot of the other giallos at this time. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And like we have talked about before in other similar films, just Basket Case comes to mind. 

Craig: Basket Case.

Todd: Right? You were gonna say it, weren’t ya? A couple o- weeks ago we did another one, I can’t remember the name of it, that also took place in New York and it showed a gritty New York City. And I feel like part of why this movie feels so gross and porny is that Fulci is deliberately going over the top to make New York a seedy, nasty character in this film.

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: He just makes New York look like it’s this crime-ridden scum place where there’s nothing clean and there’s n- nothing but strip clubs, and sex shows, and Times Square, and dark alleys, and people getting murdered and running down dark empty streets and no one helping them. You know? 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And it, I feel like that was part of his goal, was to get this gritty, gross New York sort of Jack the Ripper style thing going.

And in that level he definitely succeeded. 

Craig: Yeah. For sure. 

Todd: To the extent that I can say I like this movie, like, uh, just like you said, of course I don’t like seeing women g- get cut up, but I liked that aspect of this movie, that it was really going for this different angle, I suppose, on the giallo. 

Craig: Well, and, you know, I, I am fully prepared to acknowledge that Fulci is Of skilled filmmaker.

I don’t think there are many people that would- 

Todd: Doubt that … 

Craig: argue otherwise. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: I mean e- even that scene that disturbed me, it was shot beautifully. I mean it, it was, it was shot- That’s part of the problem, but yeah … the framing of it, yeah. I mean- Yeah … it, it was shot beautifully and, and the special effects were disturbingly realistic and- 

Todd: More realistic gore in this one than usual, yeah.

Craig: Yeah, I mean, I, I could go on and on. Like, the soundtrack behind it was perfectly appropriate and, and fitting to the tone and made you uncomfortable. It’s done very well. I’m- I’m hesitant to criticize it at all. A- a- and it’s really not a criticism, it’s just me acknowledging that it’s not for me. 

Todd: Yeah. Fair enough.

Craig: But that’s, that’s art, you know? Some art just isn’t for me. That, that doesn’t mean that I don’t think that the people behind it are bad people or that they’re not talented, just not for me, and this happens to be one of those- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: movies. 

Todd: This is a very 

Craig: ex- I did, I 

Todd: did- … extreme movie. Yeah. 

Craig: I do, I do want to at least talk about the plot because there are elements of the plot that I find fascinating.

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: Though, as I said, I had no idea who the main character was. 

Todd: Yeah, I sort of feel like it’s the cop maybe. 

Craig: It seems like it. 

Todd: Well, it switches. It switches, doesn’t it? 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Yeah, follows different people. And it does go down these roads and then kind of abandons these roads, and then brings that character back a little later.

Craig: Everything comes back together, but you’re right, like- 

Todd: It’s all over the place for a while. 

Craig: Yeah … it starts out with the cop and he’s investigating, I don’t know, murders. Specific murders that we know about, I don’t remember. I only watched the second half twice. 

Todd: Well, there’s a hand found by the river in New York City by a dog.

That’s kinda what kicks off the title sequence. And then you’re right, it’s, it’s this Lieutenant Fred Williams, I suppose is his name, and he’s interviewing a, a woman who found the body and, like you said, there’s been other bodies previous to this apparently as well. 

Clip: Well, it was just 7:00, and she got this telephone call from this, some person.

Strangest voice I ever heard. Sorta like a duck. Like a duck? Quack, quack, quack, just like that. Not that he said quack, quack, quack, but that was the tone. 

Todd: And so they gotta get to the bottom of who’s cutting up all these girls. But then straight from that we get all these great shots of the New York City streets and the Staten Island Ferry, and a random woman walking down the street.

So you know, all right, we’re gonna see another victim here. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And this sequence goes on for a while, and I think it’s kinda tense. It’s our first kill of the movie. She’s… This guy’s obviously following her. He’s in a car. The… She scrapes up against some guy’s car on her bicycle, and he bitches at her and she drives away, and they both, I guess, end up going onto the ferry?

This part was a little nebulous, but she’s riding her bike onto the ferry and she sees that car park itself. ‘Cause this, you know, the Staten Island Ferry’s big, you can actually take a few cars on there, so people do that. Mm-hmm. And so I guess to get back at this guy, whose car she swiped, let’s make that clear- She opens up the door, gets inside, he’s not there, and, uh, starts to write something on the window with her lipstick.

But this whole time we see POV shots. Somebody’s obviously following her as well. And sure enough, as, uh, this POV gets closer and closer, you know, opens the door. She looks up at him, and he’s got this sort of inner monologue being externalized, and it sounds like Daffy Duck. 

Craig: Why is this, why is this the second movie-

that we have reviewed that specifically uses Daffy Duck’s voice as part of the villain’s persona? Like, that’s so, that’s so crazy. 

Todd: Quacks like a duck, and yeah, how have we done that two movies in a short amount of time? 

Craig: What was the… The other one had duck in the title, didn’t it? Uh, To Kill a Duckling or something 

Todd: like that?

Oh, that one way back then. Yeah, the… I’m not sure it was that same one. Yeah, that one has shots of Daffy Duck. That one is a Fulci movie, actually. 

Craig: My God, 

Clip: the guy 

Todd: has a thing for Daffy Duck. I guess he does. 

Craig: I, I honestly only have the vaguest remember- 

Todd: Oh, it’s Don’t Torture a Duckling. Sorry, that’s what it’s called.

Craig: Don’t Torture a Duckling, yeah. Even that first part that you were talking about, like I have a vague memory of the ferry and the lady on the ferry, but again, I really only watched the last half hour again. Ah, that’s- I felt like, like, so, so it follows him for a while, and like there’s an investigation. And if there were more interesting murders, jump in and, and recap those.

But at some point, a young woman gets attacked and escapes, and at, at that point in the movie, and I don’t remember how far along in the movie that was, but then it very much seems like she’s the main character. 

Todd: Yeah. You’re talking about the woman in the live sex show, right? So- 

Craig: I don’t remember. I remember the live sex show, but- 

Todd: Well, after this happens in the car, they’re in the morgue.

They’re talking about how there’s no trace of sex. It’s, uh, whoever’s killing them is not, you know, raping them first. Uh, but it’s the same style as the woman they found by the river. And th- th- there’s a little bit of a thread through this movie where the lieutenant keeps getting phone calls from the killer, who’s doing a whole kind of Black Christmas-y type thing, where he’s spouting nonsense and quacking like a duck.

And also, there is a cameo at this point by Fulci himself. He plays the police chief. 

Craig: I saw that. 

Todd: And then it, it must be said that Fred goes to– He’s the detective or police detective. He goes to the university and finds this guy named Dr. Davis playing with an electronic chess set, and they have this really dumb and contrived dialogue.

But you know the minute he walks into that university and steps up to this man what’s going on. He’s gotta get the help of an expert in serial killers to try to make a profile of this guy and figure out who they’re looking for. 

Clip: You want me to collaborate on the case, don’t you? Yeah, more or less. I figure if I’m up against a maniac, I might as well have some, uh, expert help.

Who’s paying? It’s a fine art, hedging. The truth is I’m quite busy, and, um, the time I dedicate to you I’d have to take away from my other work. I expect the administration will be able to raise enough money to meet your fee. Got any idea what a genius costs per hour? No, no, I just know what’s in my paycheck.

Okay. You let me have all the data, and we wait for him to butcher another girl. 

Todd: It’s so standard as in all these movies. But then of course, at least in my mind I’m thinking, “All right, well, there’s suspect number one.” Could it be the guy that he’s at the university who’s so into serial killers who is the serial killer?

Craig: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Todd: But, you know, it’s pretty straightforward at this point, and then you’re right, then we suddenly jump to a live sex show going on in New York City. Times Square, in one of these places. We get a lot of cool shots of the old school Times Square. It doesn’t look like this at all anymore. It used to be just seedy and full of grind houses and porno shops and apparently live sex shows.

Craig: This is graphic. I was… 

Todd: It’s like porn really. It is, it is almost- 

Craig: It’s, it’s for sure Cinemax soft core- 

Todd: Yeah … porn 

Craig: for sure. 

Todd: And can you imagine this era? I mean, I’m sure stuff like this happens in remote corners of the world, but like- 

Craig: I can’t, like, I can kind of understand, like, in the ’80s, pre-’80s when Times Square was far seedier and full of porn theaters and, and stuff because people didn’t have immediate access to that necessarily- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: all the time. But everybody has a computer. Everybody has a phone. Yeah. You don’t have to go… I just can’t imagine. I… A different time, I’m sure. 

Todd: Well, uh- … there’s one woman in… E- almost everybody in this audience looks bored watching this except for one woman, who is really very much getting off on it. Of course, she’s fully dressed, but she is touching herself.

This is why this is so porny. He gets up close in her crotch while she’s touching herself. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: I mean, her panties are on, but they’re very thin. It’s just really… He, like I said, he’s just really going for far more explicit stuff than normal when it comes to the sex stuff. 

Craig: I’m glad you reminded me of that because I remember I was watching it at night by myself, ’cause Alan has no interest in these movies.

And, and that part happened, and I just remember thinking, “This is the horniest movie I’ve ever seen.” Like- 

Todd: Oh, I highly doubt that. I highly doubt that. Well- What you mean in the last two days or something?

Craig: genre specific. 

Todd: Okay. Oh my God. Well, she’s, she’s also got a little mini tape recorder. Remember those? 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And she’s recording the sounds of the sex show, and there’s another dude who keeps looking over at her. She might be in trouble. He gets up and he follows her as she walks out, but it can’t be this dude, ’cause we’ve seen his face, right?

So this woman walks out, and the woman in the sex show goes back to her dressing room. And so we follow her for a little bit, but, you know, someone’s taken out the light. There’s a figure at the door, and now again we’re in POVs and we’re in shadows in that typical giallo where you can see the hands but nothing else.

And this hand grabs a bottle from her thing, breaks it, and stabs her in the crotch- Ugh … with the broken bottle. And there’s a cat sound. It’s so, so crazy. And of course, the police c- or somebody stumbles in there, opens up the door, and you see the aftermath, which is this woman lying there with a bloody crotch and a broken bottle next to her, dead.

So Lieutenant Williams gets the call from the duck guy, and he taunts him saying, “I killed another person.” So that happens, and that was bothering me, too. 

Craig: Yeah, I’m just, I’m remembering- … these things as you’re recounting them. I’m like, “Oh yeah.” 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That woman totally got her puss stabbed. I forgot. 

Todd: Great.

With a broken bottle, yeah. But anyway, now we go to this rich guy, some doc- He looks like a rich guy sitting around. Again, another sort of trope in these movies is some professorial middle-aged, half overweight dude sitting around. 

Craig: Drinking brandy or something. 

Todd: Exactly. And they’re in, like, a house, a weird little house kind of by the river, by itself.

I don’t know. I guess it must be expensive. And that woman shows up. He’s playing the tape that she made for him, and her name I think is Jane. And they have a little dialogue, and then she leaves. And so now everything has changed again, and now we’re following Jane. Jane, who didn’t get killed, the f- you know, in that last scene.

Now Jane shows up at a pool hall, and she’s looking very shady. And she’s sitting in the corner, and she’s looking over one of the guys playing pool and admiring his package. She looks at him, and he looks at her, and he comes down and sits across from her at the table, and so does his friend. And they are just creepy perving on this woman in her face.

She is not saying a word, but he has taken off his shoe under the table, and he’s got his foot under there. Oh my God. And he starts- toeing her vagina. It is so disgusting. And we get this from multiple angles, very close up. She tells him to stop it, but then she also spreads her legs wider. And there’s lots of mouths, lots of eyes, lots of close-ups w- between her vagina and his big disgusting toe, and her eyes- Uh-huh

and his eyes, and her mouth and her lips, and- 

Craig: And it’s not just the two of them. Like- No … one of his buddies is sitting right there. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And, and it’s not a secret what’s happening. Like 

Todd: It’s so porny. It is so porny. Uh-huh. And eventually his friend flips the table over and pulls it away suddenly to reveal what’s going on, and she runs away embarrassed.

So, you know, the idea is she went there for this. She goes to this porn theater, records. She goes to this place, I think, to just get off, because I don’t remember her having her tape there. So it’s just all these weird people with their fetishes, and then these creeps who are all around them indulging them in some way.

Yeah. But you think, “God, New York City must have been a hell hole back then in the late ’70s- … early ’80s.” But- After you, you watch these first 20 minutes of this movie, Jesus. 

Craig: You’re gonna go to a bar to get toad. Oh, God, I’d never seen such a thing. And it was such a funny, like- I feel almost gross saying this, but like the way that it was filmed, it appeared to me that he was messing with her, that they were both messing with her a little bit 

Clip: So she don’t need nothing on her pussy.

Got all that natural fur.

Signora, I tell you what. I buy you a beer, and my friend take you for a ride. 

Craig: But at the same time, initially it seemed like she was getting off on it 

Todd: She was, for sure. 

Craig: Not just the physical. I mean, you know, a physical thing is one thing, but I think kind of getting off on being messed with- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: a little bit and teased- 

Todd: Mm-hmm

Craig: until she was, you know, intentionally exposed and they were trying to embarrass her and, and did. But like, yeah, like New York must have been wild in the ’80s. 

Todd: Oh, it was. It was indeed, I suppose. I wish I could take a time travel machine- Oh, boy. Oh, no … and go back there. I would love to witness this. I don’t know if I wanna walk through it too much, especially not at night.

Craig: Just for journalistic purposes. 

Todd: Yeah, yeah, for research, you know? I gotta see these live sex shows firsthand and take notes. Bring my mini tape recorder in. So then we get another random girl who is not this girl, and it’s the first time we see her as well. But you know, you’re left wondering, why does this other rich lady keep popping up, right?

Like she pops up, she leaves, she pops up, she leaves. Why is she collecting tapes for this dude? There’s a lot of movie that goes by, just seems very disconnected with what, where we think the plot is going. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: But this random girl gets on an absolutely graffiti-ridden subway train. There is not an inch of this train that is not covered with layers of graffiti, and I looked at this and I thought, “God, I guess this was New York City back then, too.”

They have cleaned it up. But um, that dude who was in the sex show who was chasing down the, the rich lady is in there and staring at her. They’re the only two in the subway. So typical, these scenes And of course, she gets up and gets creeped out, so she starts to walk away, and he approaches her. He l- he backs her into a corner, and somehow the train stops and she’s able to get off, but now she is being pursued.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: But again, I’m thinking there’s no way this is the guy. I mean, it’s too obvious. And this was the first moment in my mind where I thought, “Is this a guy who’s rounding up people or working as a team with the person who’s actually killing?” That was what I thought at this moment. I was like, “This guy’s so far been pursuing two women, and we’ve seen a murder happen, but we haven’t seen the murderer’s face, so this guy must be in cahoots.”

She, she’s running down dark streets, and someone is calling out her name, “Faye, Faye, Faye.” And there’s shadows on the wall, and there’s duck sounds, and there are knives, and then she runs into a theater, and how did she run into this theater and why? So then she just decides to sit down in a seat and start crying.

I, I… Just get away. Like, get home, wherever you need to be. And as she’s sitting in this seat, these hands come up between her legs under the seat. The, this guy has, like, pushed himself underneath and is trying to grab her crotch. It’s just, it’s just an odd- 

Craig: I know. 

Todd: It… None of it makes sense. I know. None of it makes 

Craig: sense.

It… Right. It was in this period of the movie where I think I just kind of checked out ’cause I was like, “I don’t know what’s happening. I don’t know who these people are. I don’t know what is going on.” 

Todd: I apologize for making fun of you earlier because you’re right, if you had stopped at about halfway through after seeing all this stuff, then I also would be just like you, going, “I have no idea what’s going on,” ’cause this is all just a bunch of disjointed stuff.

So anyway, she runs and runs, and then someone totally eviscerates her while she’s in the alley, I think. I mean, and we’re talking close-up cuts across her stomach, chest. There’s a lot of thrusting. This is so sexual. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: It’s just a close-up of a knife going forward. You, you don’t even necessarily see it connect, but you see it thrusting, thrusting, thrusting- Mm-hmm

and eventually gets behind her and just cuts across her neck. There’s blood everywhere, and she’s screaming, and then she wakes up. It turns out she’s in a hospital bed And I’m like, “Okay, so she had a dream, but she’s in a hospital bed. So did some of this happen?” What is it? 

Craig: I don’t know, because if, if, if you’re talking about the girl that I think that you’re talking about, she from that point forward doesn’t really show any evidence of having been attacked, right?

Todd: Exactly. 

Craig: Like, are you talking about the main girl? 

Todd: Yeah, yeah, that’s her. 

Craig: Or what seems like the main girl? I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah, I know, but that’s her though, because in the dream, the last flash that she gets before she wakes up is of a guy’s face, and it’s the face of her boyfriend. She wakes up in the hospital, and did she have an accident or did she just get cut a little bit?

Craig: I have no idea. 

Todd: I just think it was an excuse to make this a little nebulous and get a lot more blood and gore in, honestly. But anyway, this guy’s walking into the hospital, and it is her boyfriend. I think his name is Peter. She says they have some talk. 

Clip: The worst thing w- about it was- Shh. Don’t think about it.

No. It’s all over now. No. N- no, I’ve got to, got to tell you something. Later. No, I’ve got to tell you now. After I was attacked, I must have had a, some sort of nightmare. I was in this empty movie house watching cartoons, but like hallu- hallucinations, and then you came in and killed me

Yes, you were the murderer, darling 

Todd: And we learn that the killer has two fingers missing on his right hand. Ugh. So she says I guess from her dream 

Craig: I’ve forgotten about that … 

Todd: her vision or from she got attacked. So now we’re at a sleazy ho- motel. That dude from the theater is getting paid by Jane, I think is, is…

This is the, this is the, that woman again, that older woman. She is with this guy that we’ve seen in the porno theater chasing after this girl, and now he is a gigolo or something. 

Craig: I don’t know. 

Todd: I mean, she pays him. They go upstairs, and almost immediately we see that there are two fingers missing from his right hand, and he is tying her to the bed.

Uh, this is clearly something she’s asked for. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Then he gets on the phone to somebody else and says, “Get over here. She’s just the way you like them.” I’m like, “I knew it.” This guy’s rounding people up for somebody else, and this woman is tied to the bed. 

Craig: Is she the one that he eventually cuts up with the razor?

Like, I, I, I don’t remember. There are so many red herrings, I guess. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: You never really know who the killer might or might not be. 

Todd: There’s not enough information, but we know we’re being led in this particular direction to think it’s this guy, up until this moment anyway. 

Craig: I guess. All right. I, I, I feel like you remember the plot far more specifically than I do.

So I’ll let you introduce… Be- I just feel like at this point we’ve not even… Unless it’s somebody that you’ve already talked about and I haven’t made the connection, the actual killer I feel like we haven’t even talked about yet. 

Todd: I m- I mentioned him, actually. I did mention him. 

Craig: Okay. All right. Okay. All right.

Todd: Well, it 

Craig: could be- Him… Well, go ahead and give it away. 

Todd: No. It… I will… Yeah, right. It could, could… 90% chance. I 

Craig: guess you know it’s a man now. 

Todd: Yeah. Big surprise, huh? That’s the twist. 

Craig: No, it, it… No, it’s funny ’cause you mentioned earlier that, you know, you kinda get some of the giallo hand scenes, but I’m a big fan of the gloves- Mm

in giallo movies because I feel like then you can do anything. 

Todd: Yeah, it could be a woman 

Craig: or a man. It doesn’t even matter. Like, the hands can be different sizes from scene to scene, but as long as they’re in those black gloves, we know that’s the killer, and the killer can be anybody. It can be a man, it can be a woman, it can be a kid, it can be some weird deformed little person or- You never know.

Todd: Yeah. It’s a handy trope, right? 

Craig: But in this movie, but in this movie there are no gloves. It’s clearly a man’s hands. 

Todd: Clearly a man’s hand, yeah. Just to go ahead and, uh, eliminate one of the men out of the picture, the very next shot is a close-up of a bunch of gay porn magazines at a newsstand, and somebody is buying it.

And the newsstand guy hides it in a newspaper and hands it over to the customer, and who is the customer? It’s the professor that we saw earlier. And I feel like this shot is just to say, “Guess what, guys?” 

Craig: He’s not into chicks. 

Todd: It’s, yeah. It’s not the professor, ’cause he’s not into chicks, right? Or is he still into killing them?

Who knows, but- 

Craig: Maybe, who knows … 

Todd: that’s the only reason this scene exists, and I thought that was cute. What a charming little outdated notion. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: But anyway, we’re back… A- and again, some, like, attempt to throw something sleazy in here. Ooh, somebody’s buying some gay porn. Ooh, this guy’s gay. Oh, my God. We’re back to the woman.

She’s cut. She’s tied up still. She’s next to the guy. 

Craig: Now, this scene I feel like is particularly noteworthy for a couple of reasons. Now, at, like we’ve said- 

Todd: Uh-huh … 

Craig: it, it, you know, it is exploitative. She’s fully nude, just… I, I believe that her legs are tied together. I don’t think she’s spread eagle, but beyond that, she’s fully nude and stretched out.

Todd: She is. I’m just going to interrupt to tell you that I just realized this is not the woman that gets cut up, or at least not yet. 

Craig: Oh, it’s not? Nope. Oh, that’s who I was thinking. Okay. All right. 

Todd: She escapes. 

Craig: We can come back to that. 

Todd: Yep, yeah. We’ll come back to that, but you’re right. It is so exploitative.

She’s half nude. She’s tied up. She looks like they’re about to kill and/or rape her. We know she’s in trouble. She has asked for this clearly, but she hears on the radio a news report that says there’s a killer on the loose, and he’s missing two fingers on his hand, and when she know- when she hears that, she freaks out, ’cause this guy’s got two fingers missing.

There’s this really dumb bit where his poorly made up hand, like, runs up her body, but then she- Mm-hmm … pretends to fall asleep. Oh, my God, that was so weird, so awkward. These shots. I, I really don’t know what, what this was meant to accomplish, but anyway, he’s like sleeping and tossing and turning, and this is not a suspenseful bit at all because it’s just so clumsily done.

But she ends up- 

Craig: Freeing herself, 

Todd: right. Yep. Mm-hmm. She sneaks out, the fire escape is locked, and she runs around the corner, and as she gets around the corner, here’s that guy, the guy that this other dude called, and she gets eviscerated. 

Craig: Yeah. See, y- ultimately when we’re almost done, you’re gonna have to explain all this to me because I don’t remember how the fingerless man and who is actually the killer are connected.

I don’t remember and I don’t, and, and I don’t really understand the motive. I, I, I think just, uh, having read, you know, some trivia and stuff, like I read about potentially what the motive is, but it’s just- 

Todd: Well, you’ll have to tell me that because I’m not sure. 

Craig: Okay. 

Todd: Well, I guess it could be implied. 

Craig: Let’s just…

Look, I, I… We’re getting close. Let’s get to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s this woman who appears seemingly to be the final girl because she’s escaped once at one point. But I think that you and I are talking about different women. I think that that- 

Todd: This is the middle-aged woman still … the 

Craig: woman that you were just talking about gets killed.

Todd: Yeah, she does get killed. She finally gets killed, yes. 

Craig: But there is another blonde woman. 

Todd: Yes, the woman who woke up from the dream who has the boyfriend, Peter. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Who apparently got attacked a little bit. 

Craig: And she has the boyfriend, Peter. 

Todd: Yep. 

Craig: Now, is it her boyfriend, Peter, who has a daughter in the hospital?

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: Okay. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: We find out that her boyfriend, Peter, has a daughter in the hospital. 

Todd: Yeah. She finds out. Oh, God, this is so weird. Again, now we go into that weird… This is such a… You know, it’s typical for the giallos, too. There are big leaps in logic, and you really don’t know how people are sorting all this out.

It’s not very clear. Somehow after this attack, the cops know the guy’s name, the, the guy who, with the two fing- two fingers missing. Mika. They say his name is Mika. He’s a Greek. And they talk about how, how this woman who died lives without bonds and with no taboos. She was free to live and free to die, and now we’ve got this POV of somebody searching Mika’s apartment And Mika has pictures of himself up on the walls in all these poses and things.

Uh-huh. And he’s got loads of porn everywhere. It’s like a porn store exploded and sent magazines flying. Mm-hmm. It’s like all this guy does is sleep under a blanket of, of, of porn magazines. And I think somebody like his landlady comes inside and there’s, like, some syringes, and there’s a pipe shaped like a dick.

I think- A dick? What? There’s just- … there’s just so much random shit. Like, it’s, it’s, like, over the top showing us this guy’s really into sex. But, but the POV is actually the, the cops. It’s kind of a fake-out. It’s the cops who are in there searching the- 

Craig: I don’t know what any of this has to do with anything.

Todd: Like- I don’t… I think it’s just establishing this guy as a druggie and sex addict and whatever, I think is all it is. 

Craig: Okay. 

Todd: Then we get back to that young couple, and they’re finally out of the hospital and, and she goes, “I just can’t take any more of that hospital.” And he’s like, “Yeah, hospitals are a real drag.”

And her boyfriend leaves, and suddenly her face changes, and there’s music. And I, I didn’t know what was going on here. And then we get back to the professor, and the professor is talking to the police, and he basically lays this out. He says, “Look, Mikas, this Greek guy, he’s just a basic gigolo. I think there’s a problem here.

I don’t think you got the guy because the killer should be, like, a refined, classy guy with a good family background.” 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: And I think we’re also supposed to meant, oh, maybe it’s that woman’s husband, the woman who just got killed, the middle-aged woman because of, you know, his tape recorder guy or whatever, ’cause he’s, he’s the only, like, rich person we’ve seen so far.

Meanwhile, she’s working her way up the stairs, and our POV guy is looking for her. She’s in Peter’s apartment. In Peter’s house, by the way. I think this is Peter’s family house, and Peter has left to go get something for her. And I don’t know why she makes a face after he leaves and decides that she needs to start exploring her boyfriend’s house.

But she does. So she goes up the attic to a bedroom full of dolls, and Mikas breaks in and cuts the lights. So she pulls a memorial hospital bill from the desk and seems confused, and th- I’m confused too. I’m like, “What is, what does this have to do… What does her boyfriend in a hospital and all this stuff have to do with anything?”

But I think it’s a pretty good intense scene, actually. It’s very tense because this guy’s in the house. She is doing her searching. The lights are out. He almost gets her, but Peter shows up in the nick of time and chases him away. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: This is supposed to be the next clue, but I am lost at this point.

Craig: Yeah, and I, and I, I feel like at that point, like, Peter’s all indignant with the cops. Like, “It’s a good thing I showed up when I did ’cause you guys are worthless, and I got stopped on my way here, or I would’ve been here earlier.” Like, I really have no idea what’s happening. Like, I have no idea what’s going 

Todd: on.

It’s– I think it’s deliberately confusing though. I really do. But, but also maybe this had editing problems. I do also know that the script got rewritten just a few days before filming. There was– There’s, like, three people collaborated on the script, and Fulci didn’t like it, the original version. And so another guy was called in to, to rewrite it very, very quickly.

He’s the one who kinda remarked at Fulci’s ideas and stuff. He’s like, “That guy’s a real misogynist. He loves cutting women up.” 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Yeah, so I’m sure that that’s, you know, no surprise this movie’s a little disjointed. 

Craig: So how does everything get revealed? 

Todd: Okay. 

Craig: I, I literally watched it an hour ago, and I still don’t remember.

Todd: The killer calls. 

Craig: In his Donald Duck voice. 

Todd: Yeah, in his duck voice, and so they’re trying to keep him on the line. And we get all that great, those great shots of the old telephone switching machinery, which I just love in these. 

Craig: Oh, I love those. It’s like- 

Todd: Oh, my God … 

Craig: yeah. “We, we– Keep him on the line for one more minute, Sarge.”

Todd: Yeah. It’s all just mechanical switches, and they’re running around trying to see where it goes. And, oh, what a day that must have been. Anyway, uh, they trace it to this Pier 11, and also the killer says, “A friend of yours says hello. Say ‘hello,’ Kitty.” And it turns out that he has this guy’s hooker friend, I think?

‘Cause we had- I don’t know … we had seen an earlier shot of, of the– Fred. We’re talking about Fred, the, the police cop, uh, with a woman, and she had gotten up and left. They’d obviously had sex, and he makes some comment that leads you to believe that, that she’s a hooker, and this is the girl. So he’s got his hooker friend, Kitty.

And we had not seen Kitty, by the way, since that, that 10-second scene way, way earlier in the movie. 

Craig: And so is she the beautiful, fully nude woman who’s- Yep … stretched out on, like, a black, like- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: I mean, the, the- She’s the 

Todd: one … 

Craig: as I, as I remember it- The set is just all black. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: And she’s just laid out on this black sheet on a bed or a table or something, and she is stunningly beautiful.

She’s absolutely gorgeous. Gorgeous body that he then proceeds to mutilate. Now, is he doing that while the other guy’s on the phone? Yes, right? So he can hear it, right? 

Todd: Yeah, and there’s a bit of a trick because he’s got a walkie-talkie hooked up to a phone. So when they trace it and they find the phone, they find out actually that, you know, he’s not there.

Right. There’s a walkie-talkie from somewhere else. But they’re able to triangulate the location, I guess, from the signal on the walkie-talkie. That’s my guess anyway, ’cause I don’t know how they end up making it there eventually to where the killer is. I, I really- I don’t know … don’t understand that, but. 

Craig: I don’t know, but I attempted to say several times that though I found this scene very uncomfortable and gratuitous, it is beautifully shot.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: And the special effects are fantastic. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: It l- it looks… I can’t imagine anything looking more real That razor blade really appears to go into her flesh, and you see the blood coming out. And there’s one scene where he begins vertically slicing down from her forehead towards her eye. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And the suspense and visceral feel of it was so intense.

You know, like, the anticipation of, “Is this really going to happen and I’m… am I really going to see it?” As he continues to slice down through her eyeball. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it looks so real. 

Todd: It’s super. 

Craig: It, it, it’s, it’s, it’s wild. It’s wild. 

Todd: It’s definitely wild. And this is the thing we run across with these movies all the time, isn’t it?

There’s always some damage to the eye. I guess that’s one of the things that kind of unique to the giallo. Argento has a thing with eyes. Fulci has a thing with eyes. Mm-hmm. Remember Zombie when that, that slow mo of the- Yep … giant spike in the girl’s eye? Oh my God. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: It’s very common in here, but this is one of the worst.

And so she gets eviscerated, and by the time they break in and find her dead, we also get a shot that Mikas is dead in there, too, and he’s also been eviscerated. And it turns out he’s been dead for eight days. So they know that the killer’s still out there. Mikas is not the one. And we learn now, and I don’t remember how, that her boyfriend- Me neither

has a sister- 

Craig: It’s her boyfriend … 

Todd: with no arm and no leg, and she’s at Memorial Hospital. I guess it’s her research, right? 

Craig: A daughter. 

Todd: A daughter, yeah. And she goes back to the scene of the crime, decides it wasn’t just a dream. The vision that she saw of her boyfriend’s face was actually her boyfriend’s face.

And the professor has looked into Faye and knows that she has a high IQ and also has a tendency to see hallucinations. I don’t know if they’re thinking that Faye did it or something. I don’t, don’t really know what that insight was supposed to all be about. But, um, she goes and sees a tip broken off of one of the knives in her boyfriend’s house, and she flashes back to when she was attacked, one of those knives hit a stone wall.

A g- another very common thing in g- the giallo movies is the person who remembers a very important detail. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. Later. 

Todd: Yeah, later. This one’s not, like, quite as clever or cute because it’s just, oh, there’s a knife with a thing broken off of it. The cop and his buddy are visiting the little girl in the hospital.

I don’t really know why. I don’t, I don’t remember or understand- I don’t either … how they all sort- like, got to this point, but- 

Craig: I also don’t remember why the little girl’s in the hospital. I don’t remember- She had some kind of illness, terminal or something … I mean, she’s, she’s missing an arm and a leg, I guess.

Yeah. So obviously sh- something happened. 

Todd: I’m not sure we know. 

Craig: I don’t know. And, like, if I remember correctly, like, the revelation that he even has a daughter comes as a surprise to his girlfriend. Yeah. It’s like, “Oh, you have a daughter?” “Yeah. Uh, I have, like, a-” eight-year-old daughter with a missing arm and a leg in the hospital.

Sorry, I forgot to tell you. 

Todd: Can you imagine the script writers? “Give the guy an eight-year-old daughter who’s missing an arm and a leg.” 

Craig: But just don’t mention it until later. 

Todd: Until the very end. 

Craig: I know. Oh. And, like, okay, so I, I don’t remember how it happens. I, I guess she figures out he’s the killer. 

Todd: Well, she’s with Peter in his house, and the girl in the hospital calls Peter, so Peter picks up the phone in his house.

I guess they play on the phone. That’s one way he keeps her entertained or whatever.

Craig: Hello? 

Clip: Maria, we haven’t played in such a long time. Bye-bye. 

Todd: And of course, when she hears that she’s like, “Holy shit, he’s the guy who’s quacking all the time. He must be the killer.” Right. So she runs away. Peter goes up the stairs after her. She stabs him with a knife. 

Craig: She stabs him a couple of times. Like- Yeah

I, I feel like, I don’t remember if in the arm or in the abdomen, but she, like, stabs him in the heart at, at one point. 

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: He probably should’ve been dead, but of course, in typical horror movie fashion, he pops up after having been st- … what should’ve been mortally stabbed. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then doesn’t he start talking to her in the duck voice?

Todd: Yes, he does. Oh my God. 

Craig: Okay, now here’s the part that I’m uncertain of, but I read stuff online. When he then attacks her after having been what should’ve been mortally stabbed, he is, like, preparing to stab her, and he says something like, “It’s just not fair.” Now, I’m not gonna try to do a Donald Duck voice, but imagine this in a Donald Duck voice.

“It’s just not fair that whores like you get to live while I’m stuck here rotting in this bed.” 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And then he goes to stab her, but I guess the mustachioed cop who I guess is the main character of the movie, I don’t know, has somehow find them and shoots him in the face. 

Todd: Uh- Like how? How did they track him down?

I don’t understand this, but yeah, he goes in just in time, shoots him in the face. Then in the car we get a nice tidy explanation as the cops are talking, right? And he says something like, “By putting all the onus on his daughter, he wasn’t responsible for the murders,” or whatever. So was he basically schizophrenic or something?

Was he, like, taking on the daughter’s identity to murder these people? 

Craig: I guess. I read a theory online that maybe the daughter was, like, possessing him- 

Todd: Oh, God … 

Craig: and doing this on her own behalf because she was so angry at her situation. It seems m- though it’s not explained at all, so believe whatever you wanna believe, it seems more likely to me that he’s just, like, disassociating.

Like- 

Todd: Yeah, that’s what I think … 

Craig: he’s, he’s, like, taking on… Like, he feels bad for her, and so he’s kind of disassociating and, and- 

Todd: Taking revenge on the world … 

Craig: revenge on her behalf. Yeah. Right. Right. 

Todd: Exactly. It’s a stupid motivation. Yeah, even for a crazy person, it’s tough. 

Craig: I didn’t like it. I didn’t like this movie.

I wouldn’t watch it again. 

Todd: I’ll tell you one thing. The last shot of this movie I could have done without, and that is- This little girl calling on the phone to her daddy, and he’s not picking up of course, ’cause he’s dead. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Going, “Daddy, please don’t leave me alone. Please answer me. Daddy? Daddy?” 

Craig: That was horrible.

Todd: And that’s what we hear- 

Craig: With, for the only time throughout the whole movie, a Donald Duck doll sitting up right next to her head. 

Todd: Yeah. Oh my God. 

Craig: But yes, I mean, that, that, that’s heartbreaking for- It is 

Todd: heartbreaking … 

Craig: for whatever reason, for a child to lose their only surviving parent. Y- you know, and obviously she’s in a terrible situation regarding her health and wellbeing anyway, and now, you know, her, her…

It is, it’s a very gloomy, it’s a very dark note to end it on. 

Todd: Yeah. Close-up on the little girl crying, which fa- cross fades into cars driving through the city, and then a shot up a- across the landscape of the city. And I, I’m just thinking, “New York, it’s a terrible place.” Yeah. What a bleak ending. And it’s like, “Ah, just another day in New York.”

Yep, yep. Another day in the Big Apple. Yeah. Oh. So anyway, yeah, I think, I think he’s did what he set out to do. He’s got this gritty movie. Super bloody, very bleak. It doesn’t make a lot of sense, like most of the giallos don’t. It’s got all the giallo slasher elements in there. But, uh, you know, uh, once you parse it out and you eliminate the bunch of the nonsense, it, it ultimately has a fairly easy-to-follow plot.

Craig: Oh, I would not say that at all. I had no idea who people were, and, and there were a couple of guys who looked just alike and I didn’t know who they were. I, I was confused- You would do disagree … throughout. 

Todd: All right. 

Craig: Throughout- … I was confused. I had no idea what was going on. If you, you know, you and I sit down and, and we try to e- explain it, I, I think that you can kind of put it together, but there are still tons of things that I really don’t understand.

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And, and I don’t know that any of that is necessarily important. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I, I, I don’t know that it was Fulci’s intention to- Put together something linear and coherent. I, I, again, as I said from the beginning, I think he appears to me, especially in this movie, to be more concerned about style and visual appeal.

And that’s fine. I can totally 100% respect that 

Todd: Well, it tracks for all the giallos really and, and all the giallo directors, you know? 

Craig: Of the ones we’ve watched, I would have to say, and of course we’ve done almost 500 movies, and I’m sure I don’t even remember all the ones that we’ve watched. Of the ones that we’ve watched, I would say this is among my least favorite.

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: I’ve, I’ve really genuinely had fun watching some of them and talking about them with you. Like Zombie 2 and- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: you know, some of those, even like Deep Red and- 

Todd: Mm-hmm. Bird With a Crystal Plumage is one of my favorites, yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Just more, just more in my lane. Yeah. But I, I, I, you know, I’m sure if you are a fan of the genre in general, I mean, Fulci is a master of the genre and, and you should probably watch it.

If you’re more like me who isn’t as inclined to these movies in general, I wouldn’t steer you towards this one. Yeah, it wouldn’t be my first pick. There are others that I would … Right. Right. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, guys, thank you so much for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend.

You can find us at chainsawhorror.com. You can also find us at patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. Join the patrons back there. Get first access to our complete uncut phone calls that we use to put together this podcast and, uh, also we got a book club back there. We have a interview. We got a bunch of stuff.

Just basically direct access to us. $5 a month is all that takes at patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. Until next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We tackle a listener request and celebrate our birthday month by diving into the 1981 Canadian slasher Happy Birthday to Me.

We talk about the movie’s iconic shish kebab kill, its giallo-inspired mystery setup, and the nonstop barrage of over-the-top red herrings that make the nearly two-hour runtime feel even longer. Along the way we dig into the prep school “Top 10,” the creative (and sometimes cut-down) kill scenes, Virginia’s traumatic flashbacks and experimental brain procedure, and the surprisingly stacked talent behind the production, including Glenn Ford.

We break down the movie’s wildly convoluted twist ending, why it feels like a last-minute rewrite, and why—despite its flaws—we ultimately had a fun time with it.

Episode 484, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: This week we are doing a listener request. You know on our website there is option for you to talk to us. You just click that link, and you’ll instantly go to a place where you don’t have to download anything, you don’t have to install any weird plugin or log in.

All you have to do is click a button and use your computer or your phone’s microphone and immediately record up to a 90-second message, which then just gets sent right to us. Well, a couple weeks ago, we heard from Mr. Beak, and he made a very specific request for us. 

Mr. Beak: Hey guys, this is Mr. Beak up in, uh, Minnesota.

Long time listener, first time caller. Been a fan for, like, five years now. Listened to many of your episodes multiple times. Uh, just wanted to pop in and say, uh, appreciate what you do. Gotten a lot of good recommendations from you guys, and I’ve also avoided a lot of terrible movies because of you guys, and I appreciate that.

I have a little bit of an ulterior motive. Figured I might as well pop in here and throw a recommendation for Happy Birthday to Me. I think you guys will have a really fun conversation about that one, especially the ending. Hope you have a good one. Bye. 

Todd: And so, uh, we decided, you know what? April is our birthday month, right?

Yeah. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: So here we are. Thought it would be very appropriate to go ahead and dive in to this Canadian slasher film from 1981 that has been on our list forever called Happy Birthday to Me. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And happy birthday to you, Craig. 

Craig: Well, thanks. Happy birthday to you. 

Todd: I hope you had a good one this year.

Craig: Yeah, I did. I mean, the older you get, I, I don’t know if you feel the same way, but the older you get the less eventful it feels. Like- 

Todd: Yeah, yeah … 

Craig: it really just feels like another day. Somebody will maybe- 

Todd: Do a little thing for you? Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, do a little thing for you, but it’s no big deal, and, like, uh, that’s fine.

Right. Like it gets to a point, it gets to a point… Not to say that if you like to go out and celebrate your birthdays, good for you. You’re just probably a more fun person than I am. I’m fully content to cook a nice meal at home, maybe have a piece of cake or something and- 

Todd: Yeah … that’s 

Craig: good enough. 

Todd: That’s totally good enough for us.

We don’t even necessarily wanna be reminded of how old we’re getting. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And also it’s, it’s a heck of a lot better than, you know, setting nice beautiful table with party favors and decorations and a beautiful cake, and then none of your friends show up. 

Craig: Yeah, that would suck. 

Todd: That would really, really suck as we, as we hear about in this movie.

I’ve been wanting to see this movie forever, probably for the same reason you have. It has a very iconic poster- 

Clip: Mm-hmm … 

Todd: and cover that is impossible to miss of a guy basically getting a shish kebab skewer through his mouth. And it’s hard to miss. It’s very… It, it’s, you know… I mean, you don’t see blood or anything.

It’s right just before the moment of impact, but- Mm-hmm … you know, it makes a statement. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I read that the makers of the film were not so keen on that. They, they really had preferred that things be a little more subtle and not focus so much on the violence of the movie. But, you know, that’s what it’s here for.

It’s a typical ’80s slasher coming on the heels of Halloween and a whole bunch of other Canadian slashers that came out around this time, of which we have reviewed a ton. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And it does have the effect of making you wait to w- when’s that shish kebab scene gonna come in come into play? True. I spent most of the movie like, “Is this it?

Is this it? Oh, they’re eating some food. Is this gonna be the shish kebab?” And then it comes at the weirdest time. Yeah. And there’s so much about this movie that I loved to laugh at, that I can’t wait to talk about it. If even just the cover art alone, the poster says, “John will never eat shish kebab again,” even though there is no character named John in this movie.

No. And then it says… It literally, all this is printed on the poster on this, on this photo. “Steven will never ride a motorcycle again. Greg will never lift weights again. Who’s killing Crawford High’s snobbish top 10? At the rate they’re going, there will be no one left for J- Virginia’s birthday party alive.”

I love it. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I love it, and I love the spirit of it. 

Craig: That lays it out pretty well. Yeah, there’s, there, there is no John. There’s, I mean, I, there’s a Steven if you count the fact that he’s French and- … it’s the French version of Steven. But- 

Todd: Yeah, there’s another Steven. He doesn’t die that way … 

Craig: think I read that, um, maybe the poster was designed before they had even really finalized the script or- 

Todd: Yeah.

And that’s not uncommon. It happens a lot. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: What we did a movie, Dolls, where the whole movie was the poster came first, and then the movie came after that. I think Terrorvision was the same. This happens all the time in these low budget q- quickie exploitation films. 

Craig: Yeah. It was also a time when you would go to the video store and you would see an interesting cover, and then you would pick it up and look at the scenes on the back and be like, “Oh, that looks good,” and then those no- scenes are nowhere to be found in the movie.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I remember that happening multiple times, and that was a little frustrating. It, it 

Todd: does. Ugh. 

Craig: Ugh. 

Todd: I, I had not seen this before. Had you? 

Craig: No. And really, the title is, you know, uh, I don’t know if it’s familiar or if it’s just such a… I, I was aware that there was a movie out there called Happy Birthday to Me, but for whatever reason, I don’t know if I just never naturally came across it or If I looked at the back or something and it didn’t look particularly appealing to me.

I mean, it’s surprising to me. I love these old slashers. And now, as I’ve said a bazillion times on this show, having seen it, I’m really surprised I hadn’t seen it before. 

Todd: Right? Yeah. 

Craig: And I’m really surprised that I hadn’t even seen it referenced all that often, because this isn’t some little, you know, indie film that…

You know, this was, this had a lot of money behind it. It was a big studio film. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: There were, you know, the production team behind it had, you know, uh- Serious experience … 

Todd: I, I think 

Craig: that… Yeah, and like they helped launch the career of, like, Ivan Reitman and some other Canadian folks. 

Todd: Well, even J. Lee Thompson, the director here, was already a well-respected director in the…

He’s, he’s British. 

Craig: An Oscar nominee. 

Todd: Yeah, Oscar nominee. He did– He ended up, after this movie, he ended… And he’s a, he was an old guy by this time. He was already, well, not that old. 60, I think. In 40s or 60s. But then after this, he went on to work for Cannon. 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: And did a whole ton of those Cannon movies in the, in the ’80s, and that’s more or less, I think, how he more or less finished out his career.

He was very well respected. He was well known for bringing movies in very efficiently, usually within the budget and under the time. Gregory Peck himself listed him as one of the only four directors he could trust to tell him whether or not he was faking his performance. 

Craig: Oh, wow. 

Todd: He directed one of the Planet of the Apes movies.

He was originally gonna direct the original. And he was a great fan of Martin Scorsese, and you can tell from, I think, this movie that it has a lot of early, especially early Scorsese vibe to it, and- 

Craig: Mm-hmm … 

Todd: and I, and ultimately I felt like it was a pretty well-made movie, really well put together. It looked beautiful, had some interesting cinematography and- 

Craig: Yeah

Todd: like you said, a l- clearly a lot of talent behind it before you even get to the actors. 

Craig: Right. And, and, you know, the effects look good. It’s really well shot. I, I think that it suffers from a pretty weak script and ultimately they kinda didn’t know what they were doing and there was a big rewrite right at the end which kind of throws everything else off a little bit.

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: But it looks really good. A- and like I said, the effects look really good. So there’s obviously skill and talent going into it, but when you’re working with a script that’s relatively mediocre. Now you said that it was kind of a typical ’80s slasher, and it is. And that it was typical is part of the reason they felt like they needed to change things up at the end with that rewrite.

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: But though it’s typical in formula, I feel like it does make a solid effort to try to stand out. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: It’s right there on the poster, the, the shish kabob thing. The other kills are unique in a similar way. It’s just, you know, not something that you see every day. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: It’s not just a guy with a machete.

It’s not just a guy with an ax. It’s not just a guy with a gimmick. It’s just let’s find some creative ways to kill these people, gruesome ways, and make it look really good And then you’ve kind of got the standard whodunit with a black gloved figure s- creeping around and- Yeah … lots of killer POV and that kind of stuff.

But that stuff works too. 

Todd: It does. It’s very giallo inspired, especially, I think, the ending. As convoluted as the whole thing ends up becoming and how it’s rooted to this mysterious past of this main character that we get revealed to us over time that’s, itself is kind of crazy. I think it seems like around this era, the Canadian slasher films were doing a lot to cop off of the Italian giallos- Yeah

whereas the American slasher films seem to be going a different direction. W- watching this, it reminded me a lot of Sweet Sixteen and The Initiation. 

Craig: Oh, yeah. 

Todd: And you know, those movies- 

Craig: We’ve done 100 of them. 

Todd: We have. And even Prom Night, they lean heavy into the mystery. 

Craig: Yeah, Terror Train. 

Todd: Terror Train, uh, Graduation Day.

A lot of the same actors in some of these. 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: But they lean heavily into the mystery. And just like the Italian giallo movies, one of the ways they preserve the mystery is they just go to the same formula of a lot of killer POV with the black gloves. And so you can never tell if it’s a man or a woman or what their physicality is or anything like that.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And also there’s… I, I thought hilariously in this movie they did that old trope where the person sees the killer. Of course, we don’t see the killer, but the person sees and it’s like, “Oh, hey, it’s you.” “

Craig: Oh, hey.” “

Todd: How are you doing? Uh, hey, what’s that knife doing in your hand?” God. 

Craig: I love that gag. I love that gag.

Todd: That gag happens, like, three times in this movie and it’s so charming. 

Craig: Yeah. The other thing, and I don’t know if it’s a good thing or bad thing, but it was clearly very intentional, but it was so over the top that I al- You know, it’s funny, but I kind of couldn’t help but roll my eyes. This movie is just chock-full of kind of the most ridiculous red herrings.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: Like, so many r- red herrings. 

Todd: The most ridiculous ones I, maybe we’ve encountered altogether in a movie to date. 

Craig: It, it, it’s directed in such a way that- For no reason, a character that has seemed pretty innocuous for most of the time will just all of a sudden be out of their mind, like acting cuckoo crazy- 

Todd: Threatening people

Craig: insane. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and like very threatening and like these big leering scary looks and saying very ominous things. It’s obvious to the point where you’re like, “Well, we’re only an hour in. Are, I mean, are we really finding out who it is?” And- 

Todd: Right … 

Craig: but no. I mean, they’re- But they’re in- they’re inexplicable.

Like you, you can’t rationally explain these scenes. 

Todd: No, they’re just shoehorned in. There are whole 10-minute sequences that are just there to serve as red herrings. There are whole long drawn out things that just have a gag at the end. 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: It’s so hilarious how bald it is, and it contributes to this movie’s running time of almost two hours.

Craig: Yeah, it’s too long. 

Todd: It’s far too long. It … I had to do this movie in chunks. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I was engaged, I was curious, but I did have to take a break every now and then. Uh-huh. It, it, it tried my patience just a little bit because it was really heavy on mystery and, uh, drama, and it’s really spaced out the kills quite a bit.

And it was just doing so much silliness that I couldn’t… Like, you couldn’t even take it seriously after a while, right? You- 

Craig: Yeah, and the tone, I, I, I don’t even know that I would say it was uneven. I just am not exactly sure because at times it was to the level of parody- … it almost felt like. But then at other times it would take it pretty seriously.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Ultimately, I think it’s silly and was intended to at least be somewhat silly, but you’re right. Like, so much time is spent on misdirection and then there’s backstory, which is great. I love a good backstory and I like when a good backstory is meted out to us- Yeah, parceled out over time … a little bit at a time.

Yeah. But this one just took too long. I’m like, “Ugh.” 

Todd: Oh, it’s… And there’s so much to it. 

Craig: And, and there’s so much to it. And then this- It always kind of bothers me too. Uh, there’s, you know, you get these little bits and pieces of the main character’s flashbacks to obviously some traumatic event. But then near the very end, there’s just like a 25-minute exposition dump.

Todd: Yeah , which you never saw coming and could not, could not have really seen coming. No. It’s so convoluted. And that’s what I loved about the ending. I can’t wait to talk about the ending because it’s just layer upon layer upon layer. Oh, it’s one of the more unhinged, I think, of the twist endings that we’ve seen from this era.

Craig: It, yeah. And, and, uh, like you said, I’m excited to get to it too. But the woman who plays the mom, like she’s just unhinged. It’s- … it’s great. All right, but we, we should set it up. Okay. So- Yeah … we’re at, I guess, a, like private preparatory high school. 

Todd: Yeah, I guess. 

Craig: Seemingly mostly for wealthy people, but they do have, you know, uh, students- Normal-

on scholarships and things … normies in there. Right. Right. But we are following the top 10, which is a group of 10 of these kids who are like the richest and the most popular, and they can do whatever they want, and they get away with whatever they want, and they pretty exclusively hang out with each other and just swap each other around.

That- 

Todd: Oh my God … 

Craig: like sexually. 

Todd: That was so crazy. There were so many times in here where I was like, “What? What? She’s with him now? What? What? They’re together now? Why did he just ask her out in front of him?” Like there were so many- 

Craig: Yeah, in the same space. They’ll just like… The- A guy will just hop from one girl to the next, you know, right there in the open out in front of everybody.

Ugh. And it, it creates like tension and jealousy within the group, but not really ’cause- Not 

Todd: really. They- 

Craig: They just keep hopping. 

Todd: It’s, it, it’s tension and jealousy for like four lines, and then it moves on. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Boy, it’s wild. But whatever. It’s crazy. They’re young, good for them. They’re not, they’re not high school age.

They looked like this was a remake of 30-something or whatever, but- It 

Todd: looked like St. Elmo’s Fire. 

Craig: It did look like St. Elmo’s Fire. It took me… It, I, I really had to convince myself. Like I’m still… I’m watching for things in the movie, I’m like, “These kids have to be in high school. I mean, there’s no way, but they have to be.”

And, and they are. 

Todd: But not the actors. 

Craig: No, not the actors. Yeah. There’s several familiar faces in there. The, the main character, her na- The character’s name is Virginia. She’s played by Melissa Sue Anderson, who was the blind girl in Little House on the Prairie, right? 

Todd: Yeah, Mary Ingalls, the older, uh… Well, was she blind?

I… Wasn’t she, um- 

Craig: She was at least blind sometimes- Okay … because I… Maybe she lost her sight at some point in the run. I don’t remember. Okay. But I remem- I don’t remember a lot of specifics about that show, but I remember really liking it when I was a kid, and I remember thinking she was one of those most beautiful girls I’d ever seen.

Uh, and, and she’s got these icy blue eyes. But, you know, she was kind of an American sweetheart. Oh, yeah. You know, that was a really wholesome show. She was very wholesome on it, you know, a, a good girl on it. And so coming over to do something like this, I think she took a break from shooting Little House to come do this It was a big change for her, but she was also very much a familiar enough face that she would also be a draw for audiences.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: There was one other guy that was so familiar to me, and I’m sure that part of the reason that he’s familiar is he- ’cause he’s got this great big honker of a nose. 

Todd: Yes, Matt Craven. 

Craig: Matt Craven. He’s not a bad-looking guy. No. He just has really y- defined figures. And I’m like, “I know I’ve seen that guy before.”

I had to look him up, and I’m like, “Yep, sure have, in, like, 150 million things.” 

Todd: Yeah. TV and movies. 

Craig: Yeah, steadily in TV and movies since, like, the late ’70s. And, and not just, like, B-list stuff, like big TV shows and stuff. Like 

Todd: Crimson Tide and A Few Good Men and Jacob’s Ladder- Uh-huh … and X-Men, like, you know, big things.

Yeah. But definitely bouncing between television and movies quite a bit. 

Craig: Was there anybody else that stood out to you? Those were the only ones that stood out to me. 

Todd: I mean, Tracy Bregman. She was Ann. Soaps. I, I… D- I mean, did you recogni- You were a big Days of Our Lives fan. She was on- Yeah … Days of Our Lives for forever.

Twice. Who did she 

Craig: play? What was her character’s 

Todd: name? Two runs. She was Donna Temple Craig for- Yeah … from ’78 to ’80. Maybe that was before your time. 

Craig: That was before my 

Todd: time. But then she did Young and the Restless and The Bold and the Beautiful. She’s still doing the Young and the Restless since 1983. 

Craig: She looks really good- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: today. She looks really 

Todd: good. She looks fantastic. 

Craig: The other kids, quote-unquote kids, some of them looked familiar to me and… But that may just be because their tropes were so familiar. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Especially, I thought, you know, the kind of awkward, nerdy one who has, like, a pocket rat and is, like- 

Todd: Oh, 

Craig: yeah … crushing on the main character.

He looked familiar to me, but I don’t know that I necessarily recognized him. 

Todd: He’s like a caricature of all those characters in these movies. He looks like- Yeah … Ted Raimi, you know? I mean, he just… Yeah. I… He… You’re right. Nerdy. 

Craig: He does kinda look like Ted Raimi, that’s right. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: But th- there are 10 of them.

They are the 10. That’s too many. 

Todd: Far too many. Oh my God. 

Craig: I- And it’s, it’s, it’s too many, uh, not only because it’s too many of us to keep track of, a bunch of buttholes really that I don’t really care about for the most part- 

Todd: Yes. … 

Craig: but also too many to even get to, if I remember correctly. Like, it seems like this gr- ultimately this group of kids is, is being targeted, but I…

They don’t get to all 10, I don’t think. 

Todd: No, they don’t get to all 10, no, unfortunately. 

Craig: Ugh, which is weird. 

Todd: Yeah, it is kind of a, a failing, but also, like, God, I mean, 10 is a lot. In a Friday the 13th movie, you could do 10. You know, you can hack off two people at once while they’re screwing in the tent or something like that.

Well, yeah. Or s- But, but with this, when you’re adding so much mystery and drama and character work in between, you’re gonna have a hard time getting to 10. 

Craig: Right, exactly. Like in Friday the 13th, the kills come at a much faster pace. These are drawn out a little bit. So yeah, I mean, it takes almost two hours to get through the six or seven or however many it is that they ultimately get through.

But anyway, the opening kill is one of these girls. W- uh, her name is Bernadette. She’s headed to the local bar where they hang out a- and drink as high school students. Okay. 

Todd: She… Oh, that actress, uh, Leah, by the way, uh, Leslie Donaldson, she was in, um, Curtains- 

Craig: Oh … 

Todd: as well around this time, which we did. 

Craig: She’s…

Yeah. She’s, she’s on her way there, and she gets stopped by the headmistress. The headmistress is this stuck-up older lady who comes in every once in a while to chastise them for being wild and- … rich and unappreciative, and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. 

Clip: Bernadette O’Hara, do you have any idea what time it is?

Where are you going? Well, I, I was just going up to the village to meet some of the kids at the inn. You mean the second home for the Crawford Top 10, don’t you? Isn’t that what the elite of the senior class like to call themselves? I guess so.

Yes, Mrs. Patterson. Do you know, Bernadette, if you and the other so-called members of the top 10 would spend half the time on your books that you do down at that inn, you could all be in Harvard tomorrow Patterson 

Craig: But Bernadette gets in her car, she gets grabbed by a gloved assailant from the backseat, and this is a, you know, a somewhat prolonged- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: m- maybe even too much death where the violence in the car where he’s trying to strangle her, and it goes on for a while, was pretty disturbing. Yeah. And I thought set a really dark tone, and so I was anticipating that dark tone throughout. It seems like she dies, but I don’t know if she was faking or if she just came back to all of a sudden or whatever, but she jumps up and she gets away and she runs away.

Now, this part, it’s not like it went on for five minutes or anything, but she just kind of runs away for a few minutes, hiding behind- … I don’t know, stuff for a while. 

Todd: She’s so dumb. Run, hide for five minutes to catch her breath until the guy grabs at her again, then she runs another 12 feet and waits again.

Yeah. Uh, y- it’s so hilarious, this, the way this beginning o- starts out, but it is a bit brutal. 

Craig: Yeah, and ultimately she just kind of runs into him. This is all happening in the dark, of course. She kind of runs into him, and he just slashes her throat. 

Todd: But it’s, it’s key that she, she recognizes this person.

Craig: Oh, that’s right. 

Todd: Yeah. “Oh my God, thank God you’re here. It’s you. There’s somebody after me.” And then slash to the throat. Right. Which is quick and shocking. 

Craig: One of the tamer, i- in terms of gore, probably the tamest of the, uh, kills. 

Todd: Well, they had to cut a lot to avoid the X rating apparently. There were quite a few seconds cut from almost every kill scene.

So, like, there was supposed to be more blood gushing out of her wound. We were just supposed to linger a little bit longer on some of these, and, and that’s, and that’s gone. I don’t know if that footage exists somewhere or not. I, I looked for it online, and I couldn’t find it, so… 

Craig: I, I, I heard that there is a, a print somewhere, I don’t know if it’s a European print or something, but that you can find one that has s- most if not all of that put back in.

But I didn’t know that until after the fact, so I didn’t bother looking for it. But then we’re introduced to all of the other- 

Todd: Assholes … 

Craig: kids. 

Todd: Table full of assholes. 

Craig: Yeah, they, I mean, they are kinda… I hate to say that, but they really are. 

Todd: Well, we say that all the time, right? L- it’s, it’s a shocking movie when we’re like, “You know, these guys are actually pretty good.

They’re nice to each other. They get along. They’re helpful.” No, this is, like, a group of assholes sitting around a table in a bar, and they start out that way. 

Craig: The guys especially are, seem like real dicks and- Yeah … like, are constantly, like, flirting with each other’s girls and kissing each other’s girls right in front of the, their guy and- 

Todd: Antagonizing each other, antagonizing people- Yeah

around them, starting fights. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Like, my 

Craig: word. It, it’s one of those groups of people that, like, why are you guys friends? Like- … you’re not nice to each other. I, I, I mean, I really think it’s just kind of based on their status, the, the fact- Yeah … that they’re the Richie Riches of the school. 

Todd: That may be the point.

Craig: Yeah, I, I, I think so. I, I’m not really sure why they hang out with Alfred, the nerdy one, because he doesn’t appear to be wealthy except for that he can make incredibly intricate movie props in his house, which again is another one of those red herrings that goes nowhere. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: It, it’s crazy. 

Todd: And, and for far too long.

Craig: Here’s the, here’s an example of how these guys treat each other. Steve Craven, whatever that guy’s name is, Alfred, the nerdy one, has a pet pocket rat. He keeps it in his pocket, and they ask to see it and, and like hold it. But then, like he gives it to a girl, and she takes it very gently or whatever, and then he turns away for a second.

I think he’s trying to flirt with Virginia. But when he turns back, he’s like, “Where’s my rat?” And she’s like, “Oh, I dropped it.” So he starts looking around for it on the floor. Well, it turns out that she’s just passed it over to Steve, who takes it and as a prank on some guys that they are beefing with, some like Shriners or something- Hmm

that they’re beefing with in this bar, takes that guy’s pet rat and drops it in a s- beer stein full of beer to give to the guy. That’s mean. Yeah. That’s mean. 

Todd: It’s mean to the rat. 

Craig: Like that’s that guy’s pet. Yeah. Fortunately, the rat is fine. I don’t think that we ever see it again. No. But, uh- 

Todd: As soon as I saw this rat, I said, “Oh, this is gonna be a thing, right?

Something bad’s gonna happen to this guy’s rat, and he’s gonna be so distraught.” And then he’s gonna be 

Craig: mad. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. No, it didn’t happen. That was one of the few things that they… I really thought they were gonna go somewhere with that, and it, it didn’t go anywhere. 

Craig: That bar scene goes on for a little while, and you kind of meet…

There’s actually a couple of girls who don’t play big roles at all that seem okay. There’s one in particular, the one that dates the douchey blonde guy. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: She seem, she seems actually kind of sweet and- Is it Anne? … doesn’t really do anything, but… No, not Anne. Anne is, um, Virginia’s best friend. 

Todd: Ah, right.

Uh, Maggie. 

Craig: Maybe Maggie. I don’t know. I didn’t even write them all down. Anne does seem like she genuinely cares about Virginia. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: For example, after this next scene that is very traumatic for Virginia, y- you should s- because this was wild to me. Like, the, the whole chicken, the playing chicken, “S- let’s play the game.”

Oh my 

Todd: God. 

Craig: So they get chased out of the bar by, you know, the guy who runs the place, and they all start jumping in their cars, and you start hearing the, the bells. I couldn’t tell if it was a train or a drawbridge, bridge. It turns out it’s a drawbridge. And they’re like, “Let’s play the game.” Well, they split up into like five cars or something like that.

Todd: Mm-hmm. Oh, and it’s, somebody’s also on a motorcycle. 

Craig: Yes. Yeah, I think somebody was on a motorcycle. But anyway, what they’re doing is they’re playing chicken on this drawbridge. So as it goes up, they are like driving their cars and like jumping the gap. 

Todd: So 

Craig: stupid And it’s crazy. Yeah. Like, even, even the very first couple that go over, like, that is far too dangerous and, and far too risky.

Even y- So okay, so maybe you only have two or three feet to jump. Th- There are so many variables there that could go wrong. But by the time it’s the car, there are, like, four of them, and the two last cars, one of them chickens out. But the guy that’s driving the very last car is gonna go for it anyway, and Virginia is in that car, and we find out immediately after that she has never done this before.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: This car inexplicably makes the jump, but that dude destroyed his car. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like- 

Todd: Smashed the whole front… I mean, the engine is totally gone in that car. 

Craig: And then I, I don’t even remember seeing this, but I read in the trivia that later on you see the car again and it’s all fixed. It’s ridiculous. I mean, the stunt looks good.

Todd: Oh, yeah. It’s exciting. It’s a really exciting way, actually, to, to kick the movie off, and I think that these first 15 minutes of the movie really moved. 

Craig: They did. They did. But Virginia is pissed, as I would be too. She didn’t even know what she was getting into. So when they finally stop, she gets out of the car and she’s angry and she just runs away, and they’re like, “We better go get her,” and somebody’s like, “No, she just lives right over there.”

And then apparently there’s a cemetery- … between the highway and her house. 

Todd: Yeah. Like, practically in her backyard. 

Craig: It is, and she walks and she stops at this grave, and it’s her mom, and there’s a box with some shears there, and she’s, like, cleaning up the grave. Again- … this is, like, midnight. 

Todd: Think about it.

Midnight. After she’s run away from this distressful thing. I mean, you just know they were sitting there with the script and they’re like, “Well, where are we gonna stick this scene? I don’t know, let’s just, let’s just put it after the car jump.” 

Craig: We’ve got to establish with- We’ve got dead mom, so she’s got trauma.

Clip: Mother, I miss you so much. You’d be proud of me now, Mother

All the kids like me. I’m even one of the top 10. W- we go everywhere together 

Craig: And then she goes home. Meanwhile, Black Gloves is following her. We, uh, of course, we don’t know who it is- Mm … until she runs into… Which guy is it? I can’t remember. 

Todd: Etienne, yeah, the French dude. 

Craig: The French dude. 

Todd: Etienne, this random guy who we haven’t seen yet.

He wasn’t there at the… I don’t think he was there at the 

Craig: bar. I, I think he was. There’s just so many, it’s hard to tell. Oh, okay. But I think he was. If you say so. I think he’s one of them. 

Todd: Well, he just stops her and is very sinister. He reaches through the gate, and he doesn’t have a very nice look on his face.

And he’s like, “I’ll walk you home.” She’s like, “Ugh.” And I’m like, “Oh my God, there’s way too many people already. I can’t even tell who’s who.” But here’s your first red herring, because Virginia goes home, and while she goes into her home, which is right by the cemetery conveniently, he’s stalking her. He’s, like, walking towards the house, and he looks in the window, and I’m getting serious Nightmare on Elm Street vibes this whole time.

Obviously, this was before Nightmare on Elm Street, but you’ve got to imagine this movie was a l- inspired it a little bit, ’cause there are some parallels here that are kind of interesting. And part of it is this guy. She comes home, and she’s got this relationship. Her dad is there, and he’s like, “Have you been over there again?”

Craig: The cemetery, 

Todd: right. To the cemeter- Right. Oh, “The cemetery in our backyard, have you been there again?” Uh-huh. “I’ve been telling you not to go there.” And he just doesn’t want her to visit the mom’s grave because he just wants her to get over it basically, and then he wants, wants them to move on with their lives.

By the way, we don’t know at this point why her mom is dead, how long it’s been. We are gonna learn a lot about this later. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and she says, “I, I have to keep visiting and, and thinking about it because I have to process what really happened.” “

Todd: My doctor says I’m not gonna be cured unless I do that.”

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And it’s like, whoa, okay. There’s a lot of info. Mom’s dead. She’s in some kind of- Something traumatic … process with the doctor. She needs to be cured of something. What’s all that? This all comes at us real fast in the first, you know, 15 minutes. And it’s the same trope, right? He’s like, “Sometimes I wish we’d never moved back here.”

Yeah, 

Clip: yeah. 

Todd: She’s like, “No, I like it here. All these people are my friends. We really get along.” “All right, honey, well, if you’re happy here, then I’m happy here.” Ugh, so it’s such a typical setup. Meanwhile, this guy is climbing the trellis and into her room. 

Craig: Yeah, all of these guys ultimately end up being real creeps.

Todd: Like- Yeah. Total 

Craig: creeps. And, and this is played… The score is very good, and it’s, uh, it’s suspenseful, and it, and it does a, a g- a really good job of setting a suspenseful tone, so much so that I’m, was genuinely concerned for her safety at this point. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And I thought, I, I thought, “God, we are so early in the movie, this can’t be the guy.”

Todd: Right? 

Craig: And as far as we know after this scene, it’s not him. He’s just a creep who breaks into her room, watches her get naked- Waits until she goes into the bathroom and then leaves. She hears him leave, but doesn’t know who it is, so she’s terrified because there’s been somebody in her room 

Todd: Yeah. In the meanwhile, we have been through at least 10 minutes of this scene that ultimately she hears the window that she had previously locked open up again and runs out and sees that it’s open and then shuts it, and that- that’s it.

Don’t- she didn’t get killed. In fact, there’s no nudity here either, which I was kind of shocked by. No. Actually, it was really hilarious because she goes there, takes off her shirt, and then keeps her bra on while she puts her nightgown over it. And I’m like, I’m sorry, I’ve lived with women. One of the first things they do-

when they come home is take that bra off as fast as possible. If- 

Craig: Even I know that. 

Todd: Right. There’s no way in hell, and this girl’s gonna be taking a shower in a second. There’s no way in hell that she’s putting that on. So this actress- There’s 

Craig: also no way in hell that the girl from Little House on the Prairie is showing her boobs in this movie.

It’s not gonna happen. 

Todd: It’s true. She does take her panties off, but they just end up on the floor with a nice zoom-in close-up on it, like this is going to be significant later, and it is. 

Craig: God, it’s so gross. And I didn’t even realize, ’cause it r- it didn’t seem like it was moving at a snail’s pace, like things were happening.

It just seemed like things were kind of drawn out. Yeah. It’s only now that we’re talking about it that I realize how plot heavy it is. Like- 

Todd: Yes … 

Craig: oh, we’re gonna have to get moving. 

Todd: Well, I just… I mean, we gotta point out, this is one of several scenes where it’s this long, drawn-out scene that ultimately serves as a red herring.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And you know it by the end of the scene. Once you see two or three of these, every time th- there’s a killer POV, you’re kind of wondering, eh, is this just gonna be nothing? Is it, or is it actually gonna be a kill? 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And I think that’s part of what makes the movie stretch on for so long psychologically, you know.

Craig: Yeah. But, and I will also say that this, even though, like I said, sometimes these red herrings are very melodramatic and over the top, there was always a question in my mind, is this it? 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I- i- it could be. I, I don’t think it would be at this point in the movie, but it could be, and who knows? 

Todd: Well, that’s the tell, right?

Usually these things don’t get exposed so early, but then the movie plays with us there, too, as we’ll find out later. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so anyway, they go back to school the next day and get lectured by the headmistress for causing trouble at the bar. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Then their science teacher does… And, and there’s gags here too with, like, he’s doing a thing with static electricity-

and his hair sticks up on end. It’s really funny. 

Todd: Uh-huh. I love that animation of the spark. 

Craig: Oh, yeah, that was great. ‘Cause this, ’cause one of these douchebag guys is, like, the scientist isn’t aware, which I’ve been to, like, a children’s museum where you can touch one of those static electricity balls and it makes your hands stand on, or hair stand all up on end.

Yeah, 

Todd: yeah. Tesla coil. 

Craig: It doesn’t hurt by any means, but it’s, it’s certainly a sensation. Like, it’s not like you wouldn’t know it was happening. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: But the teacher’s like, “The good news is static electricity can be released,” and then he, like, touches… He doesn’t even touch that guy’s nose. He comes, like, two inches away from it and they animate a little lightning bolt-

in there. That was pretty crazy. 

Todd: It was pretty bad. 

Craig: But what he’s ultimately showing them is that he can cause reactions in, in these dead amputated frog legs. He can get the nerves to react and the legs to move, and that sparks one of her first, Virginia’s first flashbacks- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: where we see her twitching on a table.

We don’t get very much information. 

Todd: Looks like an MRI sorta thing. It’s some machine that’s wrapped, and her head is in this thing. 

Craig: Yeah, it looks like a giant circular magnet, like a miniature Stargate or something. 

Todd: Yeah. Around her head, yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and she’s bald and she’s got, like, drill marks in her head and stuff.

There’s some exposition about this later that ultimately I didn’t really understand, but I also didn’t care, so- 

Todd: Uh-huh … 

Craig: but, but there’s some things going on with her. And then she immediately goes and visits her doctor, David, right? 

Todd: Real quick, that ends with her sitting up and going, “My, my birthday.” And, and I was like, “Oh, okay.”

The, uh, like I, I was wondering by now when the birthday would come into place, you know? Because we’re- 

Craig: Yeah … 

Todd: the whole movie. And, and I think at this point we’re in doctor’s office and- 

Craig: Yeah, but I, I, I’m still a little bit confused by this because- 

Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: this isn’t the doctor who performed the procedure on her.

Todd: No, no, no. 

Craig: This is just some other doctor that, like- 

Todd: Psychiatrist, I think … 

Craig: befriended her? Okay. I 

Todd: think this is… And, and they have an interesting relationship. By the way, we’re talking about famous people. This is probably the most famous person in this whole movie. Yeah. Glenn Ford, star of the silver screen since a very long time.

Very famous guy. A very surprising, I thought, that he was in this movie. But I mean, this guy was Pa in the ’78 Superman. 

Craig: Right. Yes. Apparently, he was miserable making this movie. I don’t know if he needed the money or what, but I guess he was… You know, and of course all of this is things that I read. I don’t, I, I can’t verify it, but- You 

Todd: don’t know him?

You didn’t ask him? 

Craig: I didn’t, no. I wasn’t there, and I don’t wanna disparage anybody if it’s not true. But what I read was that he was drinking heavily throughout, and he didn’t like the script, and he made it very obvious to anybody who would listen that he felt that it was beneath him and- 

Todd: Started a fight with his AD, right?

Like, at one point. 

Craig: Yeah. Mm. Punched his AD, I think, in the face- … and then hid in his, uh, dressing room and refused to come out until the AD came and apologized- … which he did. To be fair, Glenn Ford apologized for his role in it, too, but- Still. Yeah, but that, it’s, you know, you wouldn’t know. He puts in a fine performance.

He, he doesn’t really have a whole lot to do except kind of be a catalyst for us to get the backstory and to kind of move us through this process that she’s going through, I guess. And he’s a father figure for her because her dad, it seems like they have a pretty good relationship, but he also seems like he’s kind of absentee.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like, he’s away for work a lot. And so David, Dr. David, is kind of a surrogate father figure for her, and she, she looks to him for help and support throughout the whole movie. 

Todd: Yeah, and unusual, I think, for these kinds of movies, particularly at this time, the psychiatrist doesn’t have ulterior motives.

He’s not a little creepy. There was only one moment in here, much later on, when I thought, “God, could it be this guy?” Because that would be one of the most unlikely scenarios. Maybe that’s why, you know, maybe that’s gonna be the big twist to this movie. 

Craig: I did find him suspicious because it seemed unlikely to me that he, he took…

I don’t know. I don’t wanna give anything away yet, but, like, it appears that bad things are happening. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: You know, the, Bernadette’s already disappeared. Somebody else is gonna disappear here in a minute, but these kids keep disappearing, but no bodies are ever found. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: And he seems to be pretty blase, like, “Oh, they’re just missing.

I’m sure it’s fine.” And, and I kept thinking, surely there’s gotta be more to it th- going on than that, and surely you can’t be that naive. But- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: who knows. So I, I found him a little bit suspicious, but- 

Todd: There was a point where I thought maybe this guy, in his position, is using her trauma and his influence to either manipulate her into murdering these people or he’s murdering the people, but he’s manipulating her into thinking she’s doing it.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, trying to set her up. That, that’s definitely probably about, mm, halfway through maybe, that notion came to mind. But other than that, they’re almost a little too close at times . Like, they get a little… There’s some long embraces there. 

Craig: There was w- yeah. Very near the end, there’s one moment where she is distraught And they’re, like, sitting in front of a fire.

And he, I think, it’s- she’s like, “It’s my birthday.” And he’s like, “Oh, it’s midnight. It is your birthday.” And he reaches out and kind of brushes her hair to the side and strokes her face with the back of his fingers, and she reaches up and grabbed his hand- Uh-huh … and kissed his fingers, and there was the briefest second where I thought she was gonna put his fingers in her mouth.

And I was like, “Wow.” I, I really wonder, I, I, I would not be at all surprised to find that that was specifically directed in that way- Ah, right … to, to make us a little bit uncomfortable because- 

Todd: Probably … 

Craig: you know, and it, it could, it could be innocent. It could be. 

Todd: Well- 

Craig: But it, it, you know, in front of the fire and, uh, yeah, it was a little strange.

Todd: You had said it earlier, and I just kinda wanna reiterate it now. I think that th- these Canadian films in particular felt a little darker and more unsettling overall. Like, they gen- they tend to have that tone for whatever reason than what we were seeing being done in the States, es- especially as we get into the ’80s and we have the f- the big franchises and stuff like that, where, where things are kinda goofy.

These tend to insert a lot of these kind of uncomfortable moments and these unresolved psychological things between people and these- Mm-hmm … traumatic backstories that you wonder where they’re gonna lead to and, and just very somber at times. And I like that about them. That’s what I, why I kind of enjoy watching these old Canadian slashers is because they all kind of have that tone.

I think Curtains, in a very self-aware way, took that and tried to run with it and make it a thing. Mm. But they all have that element to them, I think, throughout, and that’s what I really enjoy about these Canadian movies is the, all this ambiguity. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting. It’s, it’s intriguing. 

Todd: Mm-hmm.

Craig: So, so then there’s a whole motocross scene. 

Todd: Ah. It’s the ’80s. Motocross. 

Craig: Yeah. French guy is doing motocross, and of course all of his friends are betting on him, and he wins, and then he shows Virginia that he has her panties, that he took them. I’m like, “W- what kind of game is this?” Like, you, do you think this is gonna turn a girl on?

That is so creepy. 

Todd: And of course it doesn’t turn her on at all. 

Craig: No. She storms away, and he’s like, “Okay, I’ll meet up with the rest of you when I’m done cleaning up my bike.” So he goes to clean up his bike, and we see the killer slowly creep down the stairs and into the room where he’s cleaning his bike.

And my God, this could not… The, this death could not have been more projected, but I almost like that because you’re just anticipating it. Mm. And, and it, it takes its time. 

Todd: It sure does. 

Craig: Well, first of all, this guy, this creepy French guy, is down working on his bike, and, and he’s got it, I think, upside down or, or- Upside down

propped up or whatever so that the wheel is spinning on its axle. And he is wearing, for reasons unknown, a huge, long knit scarf. And my first thought was, “You deserve to die.” 

Todd: Oh, my God. You are the most careless person. 

Craig: I can think of very less stupid things than wearing something long and dangling from your neck while working next to a spinning tire on its axle with spokes.

I knew that. And so it’s just him down there tooling around, the wheel’s spinning, spinning, spinning and- In 

Todd: the 

Craig: basement, 

Todd: by the way. I don’t think you’d wanna run your motorbike in the basement for 

Craig: very long. Probably not. That was ridiculous. And the killer just slowly walks up behind him, like slowly, slowly, slowly, then stands there for a good 10, 15 seconds, then just gingerly picks up one end of the scarf and tosses it into the wheel, and that guy gets his face peeled off by the wheel.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then again, for reasons that I don’t understand, Virginia and Anne, best friends, they all get drunk together. Of course, they notice that Frenchie never shows up, but they’re like, “Okay, whatever. His girlfriend’s kind of upset, I think. I don’t know.” But Virginia and Anne break into Alfred’s house.

Todd: Why? 

Craig: Alfred’s the nerdy one. 

Todd: Why? 

Craig: I don’t know. 

Todd: Why did they break into his house? That was so contrived. 

Craig: I don’t know, and they just kept saying, like, “I wonder if he’s stuffing things in there.” Like, “He’s always stuffing things in there.” 

Todd: Like he’s got a taxidermy obsession or something like that? 

Craig: And he, apparently he does, because they go in there and he’s got a bunch of taxidermied stuff, but then he also has what appear to be a bunch of pretty intricate horror movie props, one of which is Bernadette’s severed head.

And then, so they see that and they turn to run, but he, like, pops out from behind a curtain and is like, “What are you doing here?” And then he’s very super, super ominous. 

Clip: We were worried because you didn’t show up at the inn. You were worried about me?

Where is About me? Maybe you were 

Mr. Beak: worried about Bernadette

Clip: What about poor little Bernadette? 

Mr. Beak: How do you like her? 

Clip: My latest masterpiece. She is a masterpiece, isn’t she? I’m, I’m very proud of her

I’ll tell you something

If you’re both very good You can be my next models 

Craig: And he goes over to it, and then he pulls out what appears to be a glass eyeball, and basically that’s the end of the scene. Ugh. And we never really hear anything about it ever again. 

Todd: Now- Like … it’s so stupid. And, and again, this is another one of those super long, drawn-out things that a big deal is made of it, and it turns out to be an obvious red herring because of course he’s not gonna be the killer, right?

Not after this. But did they know that Bernadette was dead at this point? No. No. So they didn’t know that her head was cut o- that she was sliced. They don’t know that she’s dead. They just know she hasn’t been around, but nobody really cares. 

Craig: No. 

Todd: They’re just commenting on it, like, once or twice. So none of this really makes a lot of sense.

It certainly doesn’t make sense that he would coincidentally been working on a head prop. It’s so dumb. 

Craig: Yeah. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s just a b- and then he acts super creepy even though- Oh, boy … he’s never really acted creepy before, and he never, never really acts creepy again except for that he kind of follows Virginia around a little bit ’cause he likes her or whatever.

But anyway, then there’s some nonsense with the headmistress questions them all again ’cause now there are at least two kids missing, and then there’s some stupid love triangle that I’m not gonna waste time on. But- 

Todd: Yeah, Steve and Rudy are fighting. Whatever … 

Craig: Yeah, who cares? And, and there, somebody says something like, “Our group is falling apart.”

Your group- And then we cut to then we cut to the- Your group 

Todd: was never very stable, guys.

Craig: Oh. And then we cut to the big buff blonde guy, Greg, lifting weights. And again, the killer walks in. We never see face. It’s always just, like, we see him from the shoulders down. And once again, Greg’s like, “Oh, it’s you,” and just starts talking to him. So clearly this is somebody they all know. It’s got to be somebody in the group.

Todd: It has to be, especially considering what he says. He says, “Uh, so and so said we’re all falling apart.” 

Craig: Right. And this, uh, this I loved this death because- … for a while they’re just gym bros. The killer never says anything, but the… Greg is just talking. He’s like, “My weights…” He, he’s deadlifting, uh, on a bench.

He’s like, “My weights are too light. Give me some more.” And he keeps saying, “Give me more, give me more.” And eventually he’s like, “Okay, that’s enough. I’m just gonna do this one more.” And he lifts them up and he’s clearly really, really straining and he’s sweating. And as he goes to lower it back onto the bars, the killer pulls the bars away.

He’s like, “What are you doing? Put that back. Ah.” And so the… He’s holding it up with no support. And the killer goes and grabs, like, a 30-pound weight and throws it on his dick.

So he then drops the barbell on himself and is dead. However, I don’t remember when it is, but his girlfriend shows up seemingly minutes later- 

Todd: Oh, yeah, almost immediately completely. And he’s completely gone, everything’s cleaned up. 

Craig: There’s no evidence. Yeah, no evidence of 

Todd: his death. Amelia, yeah. She almost gets knocked by the weights behind the door.

That was another, another real tense moment where the weights have been set up behind the door upright, and you see the door kinda close and you see those start to tip towards her, and it just barely misses her. I thought she was gonna get it. 

Craig: Yeah. And there are other jump scares like that too. A couple of them I found, I found a little bit cheap, but they made me jump anyway, so- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: they worked. But God, then there’s a soccer game, and the soccer star Rudy is pissed at his girlfriend ’cause she’s messing around with Steve, and so he invites- 

Todd: Virginia … 

Craig: Virginia- 

Todd: Absolutely … 

Craig: to the chapel. Like, it’s like, “Hey, what are you doing later?” She’s like, “Nothing.” He’s like, “You wanna go to the chapel?”

She’s like, “Sure.” Like- … are you going to pray? Like, what is happening? 

Todd: What kind of date is this? And Amelia’s jealous, and I’m like, boy, Virginia’s been out with, like, three different guys so far, hasn’t she? She’s been hopping around. 

Craig: Yeah. So she meets him in the chapel, where he proceeds to do some of the dumbest impressions.

And they walk through the chapel and they walk up into the bell tower, and he’s, like, swinging around on, in the rafters and stuff and acting like Quasimodo. 

Clip: I will never forget you, my darling.

Rudy. Wow, I, I just love this place, I swear. Stop. I feel just like Quasimodo. Quasimodo in the bell tower. Thank God you don’t look like him.

Give me a little kiss, Esmeralda. A little peck on the cheek Rudy, stop it. Stop it. Next thing I know, you’ll be swinging from the bell rope 

Craig: And the longer it goes on, which is a couple of minutes, it gets creepier and creepier and more threatening. And at one point he, like, is playing with the rope for the bell, the bell rope, and he’s like, “I could cut this bell rope.”

And she’s like, “No.” And I’m like, “You could cut that bell rope and what?” Like- 

Todd: I know. What was the… What, what, what’s so s- disturbing about that? I… 

Craig: Because ultimately he does, and so when the priest pulls on it, the rope just falls down. It’s not like it was, like, supporting the bell or anything. 

Todd: Har, har. 

Craig: He’s like, “I could, I could cut this bell rope because I have a knife.”

And then he pops out a knife and he’s looking at her like a Looney Tune, and he starts moving towards her and she backs into the shadows. And then it cuts to… And I knew something was up because why else would we not see this death? 

Mr. Beak: Right. 

Craig: But we see blood dripping from the bell tower into the sanctuary, onto the floor.

And then when the preacher goes to pull the rope, it has been frayed and it, it comes down, and he picks it up and looks at it, and there’s blood on it. 

Todd: And then he screams, “Help, murder.”

Oh my God, how charming. “Help, murder.” 

Craig: We immediately find out that Virginia is still alive, so I’m thinking, “Oh, she must have killed him,” because that was a very- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: ominous scene or whatever. But she goes, ’cause she’s scared, so she goes back to Dr. David, and there’s… She has another flashback of her brain surgery.

Huh. Now, this is notable just because they put so much effort into the effects, so much so that they had an actual neurosurgeon play the neurosurgeon, and they did their best to make it as real as possible, and it did. I mean, it looked really good. 

Todd: Yeah. I know my brain surgery. This was authentic. 

Craig: Well, I don’t know if it…

But it was gruesome. Like, it, it- It was very 

Todd: gruesome … 

Craig: it seemed to me like they had taken off or opened up a large part of her scalp, and at some point previously had put a plate. A- and it may have been a plate of her own bone- Mm-hmm … but there was a plate, big plate in her head. And when he took it off, there’s brains, and then the brains start to pop out.

And again, this is the exposition stuff that I didn’t really understand. Because when the brain starts to pop out, the surgeon’s like, “That’s it. Call it. She’s dead.” And then she wakes up and starts screaming and freaks, and saying like, “He killed me. He-” 

Todd: Killed part of 

Craig: me. “He killed part of my brain.” 

Todd: Uh-huh. 

Craig: I don’t really know what that means.

Todd: I think, and I think it comes up later, but I think what we’re supposed to piece together eventually is that something about the accident, and I think it’s when she came up, damaged her brain, and they went through some kind of reconstruction process. That’s what the big machine was. And so her brain is still in the process of being reconstructed with this new experimental technology that that doctor just came up with recently.

And so that’s why she can’t remember things. But as her brain, over time, is reconstructing and she goes through her therapy, she’s able to remember more, and more, and more, and more. Which- God, it’s so convoluted because normally in these movies just a person’s got some amnesia and they talk to the th- s- psychiatrist for a while, and eventually it comes back in pieces, and then they can remember the thing they need to remember right at that moment in the movie where they need to.

Here they’ve got this whole long biological explanation with some experimental procedure and a crazy machine 

Craig: and shit. Yeah, something to do with ele- statoelectri- static electricity and magnetism and all kinds of weird stuff. 

Todd: To basically accomplish the same thing plot-wise, you know? It’s, it’s so s- 

Craig: Right

Todd: it’s so silly. She’s 

Craig: messed up in the brain. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. I, I had forgot to mention that after the soccer game, Rudy had seen something sticking up out of the garden and reburied it. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And aft- and after he goes missing briefly, somebody finds it and they pull it out and it’s, it’s the same scarf that the motorcycle guy- Yes

was wearing. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: And they also find a buried skull, and at this point everybody’s, like, standing around and the girls are, like, almost in tears ’cause they think that it’s Greg, and it turns out it’s just a skull from the science wing. Why? And, like 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: why in God’s name would Rudy stop and bury this thing?

Because As far as I remember, he had absolutely no connection to Greg’s death. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So, or, or whichever one it was that got pulled into the tire or whatever. Again, it’s just more red herring stuff that doesn’t pay off, and that can be frustrating. 

Todd: It was silly just ’cause it was so unrealistic. Like, what, is this just a prank, that he just likes to run these pranks in case people find them?

It, it doesn’t make sense. 

Craig: Then there’s a scene where they’re all at a pool and they’re, like, hanging out, like, in the, uh, the basement area where they have, like, windows where you can see in the pool. And one of the girls, like, pretends like she’s drowning, but I guess it’s a prank or whatever. But it freaks Virginia out and she runs out and she has a flashback of someone drowning.

I, I, I said in my notes I, I’m sure it’s her mom, and it is because she then immediately runs back to her mom’s grave at the cemetery and somebody’s creeping on her, and we see that it’s Alfred, and he also is wearing that scarf. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: What? Like, what is happening? 

Todd: Everybody’s got a scarf, and there were also quite a few black gloves in this as well.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I think maybe that’s part of their uniform or maybe it’s 

Craig: a- Maybe. Maybe it’s their school colors or something. 

Todd: I just kinda had to figure that out later because ultim- you know, at first we’re just, we’re just gonna be conditioned to think this is Etienne’s scarf, you know? So I couldn’t figure out how this kept popping up and why it was and why nobody was remarking on it or anything, and where it came from.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: By the way, at this point we’re only an hour in. So much has happened and it’s only halfway through the movie. 

Craig: Oh my 

Todd: God. At this point, because of the sharpness of the cuts, because so many times she would have a flashback and then she would sort of wake up from her flashback in the psychiatrist’s office, there was a part of me that was thinking, “Oh, is all of this happening in her head?”

Is this one of these movies where, like, she’s basically in the psychiatrist office the whole time, but all these murders and things are actually g- like a different story playing out in her mind? 

Craig: Well, they, they certainly steer us in that direction. Is it that? Like, is this all just in her mind, or is this, like, a Nightbreed situation where the therapist is- Mm-hmm

manipulating her for whatever reason? And I c- I really couldn’t tell because there came a point where it seemed like the therapist was covering for her. Again, I know I already said it- Yeah … but it just seemed like he was too naive to not think that there was something strange going on. 

Todd: Well, she invites him over to her house almost like it’s a date for her Sunday birthday dinner, I guess a day early, and that’s when he comes over, and I think he’s there, and she’s has this episode, and then a cop comes to the door.

Oh, no, it- maybe that’s a little later. 

Craig: Well, we skipped because she, because w- when Alfred is creeping on her in the, in the cemetery, she’s kneeling at her mother’s grave, and we know that there’s a box full of giant shears right there. Ah, uh-huh. And he goes to pull something out of his pocket. The, the music tells us it’s a weapon or something.

So she turns around and stabs him, and she’s kind of dead faced, and she stabs him with those shears, and then she just goes home. And, and we also see when he falls down that what he was pulling out of his pocket was a rose- Yes … um, that he was gonna give her or whatever. 

Todd: So yeah. 

Craig: So she just goes home. Her dad is packing for a trip, and she’s like, “Wait, when, what about Sunday?”

And he’s like, “Oh, shit, your birthday.” He promises he’ll be back, and then they go to a school dance, and she is really out of character dancing and flirting with Steve- Mm-hmm … the big nose guy. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And she very seductively says, “You know, my dad’s out of town. Why don’t you come back to my place? I make a really good midnight snack.”

Todd: It’s all sexual en- entente between the two of them. I like this 

Craig: bit. Yeah. And they, and then they go back to her big mansion, and they’re, you know, laying down by the fire. Uh-huh. And the midnight snack that she made- 

Todd: Which is? … 

Craig: was shish kebabs. 

Todd: Thank God. When this came on the screen, I was like, “Finally.” It’s an odd midnight snack to be eating when you’re about to make out by the fire, but oh my God.

Craig: Yes, but I- 

Todd: Oh, they look good too. 

Craig: Yeah, they, they, they did look good. Uh, she was, like, dipping them in sauce and feeding them to him and stuff. But this is a good time for a PSA about how if you have metal- 

Todd: Skewers … 

Craig: if you, yeah, if you have the metal skewers, don’t eat directly off them. It’s dangerous. 

Todd: Yes.

Craig: Just pull all the good food off onto your plate and eat it with a fork. 

Todd: Or at least do like they do in China, eat it from the side. Bite the side and pull it through. Right. Don’t, like, put it 

Craig: straight- Don’t stick the pokey part in your mouth. 

Todd: Oh, God. 

Craig: But she does. She feeds it to him like that. She’s like, “Do you want a little bit more?”

And he opens his mouth, and she just shoves it all the way- 

Todd: Yes. Oh- … to 

Craig: the back of his head … 

Todd: that was so satisfying. 

Craig: It was good. 

Todd: Oh, and that’s when I had to take a break. I was like, “All right. This movie’s gone on for a while. I need to take a break,” but I, I got to that point. I need to 

Craig: And it just cuts to the next morning, and she wakes up to Anne, her friend, like, I don’t know, throwing a rock at the window or something, knocking at the door or whatever, and she leans out her second story window, Virginia does, and says What time is it?

Oh, it’s noon. We were supposed to be somewhere at 9:00 or something like that. I don’t know. And she says, “Oh, man, I don’t remember anything about last night.” Yes. And Anne’s like, “

Todd: Mm-hmm.” 

Craig: So she throws Anne down the keys and says, “Come on up, I have to take a shower.” 

Todd: Oh, by the way, she’s got a great line here when she calls up- 

Clip: Come on, it’s time to get up.

I wanna hear all the gory details about you and Steve last night. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was good. That was a good line. Oh, 

Todd: it’s brilliant. 

Craig: But then there’s this shower flashback, which also was wild, and this is, this is the big expedition dump, right? Like- Yeah … this is a whole story. Ah, you should tell it.

Todd: Yeah. Well, she looks up at the shower head and it reminds her of rain, and it reminds her of rain coming down onto a windshield, and it turns out this is the night that she and her mother had the accident where her mother died. They are basically on that bridge. I don’t know how they end, end up getting stuck- Well, 

Craig: her mother is- 

Todd: She’s drunk

her 

Craig: mom is drunk. 

Todd: Yeah, she’s drunk, and that, that gets established. 

Craig: She’s not only drunk, but she’s also th- clearly very agitated and upset. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: I, I think she’s just not paying attention. But what happens is, is wild. Like, you know, we’ve seen this whole drawbridge thing before, but when she goes up over it, she manages to straddle it- 

Clip: Mm-hmm

Craig: with the car as it’s continuing to go up. And again, they must have had some budget for this, ’cause it- Yeah … looked really good. I think they had to have dropped that car or a car more than once, because if I… They, they show it falling into the water several times in sequence But I think the first few times they show it, it lands on its top, and then the last time it lands right side up.

But they sink into the water, and the water’s coming in, and the mom is pinned in there somehow. I couldn’t really tell how 

Todd: She was like, um, something was stabbed through her. At least we find that out 

Craig: later. Through her leg or something. Yeah. But she tells Virginia to get out, and Virginia’s scared or whatever, but eventually she does.

And in coming up, she hit her head. Like, she came up underneath, like, a huge barge- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: and hit her head on the barge, and so that’s the source of her injury. Brain 

Todd: injury, yeah. Oh, it’s so nuts. 

Craig: It is nuts. And, and it looked… I mean, that was a, that was a pretty heavy action piece. There’s a lot going on there.

But she wakes up kind of sitting on the floor outside of the bath, and the curtain is drawn, and she seems kind of confused, and then she opens the curtain and Anne is in there dead, drowned, having drowned, so. 

Todd: Yeah. So she looks at Anne, it cuts to her, and then it cuts back to the body, and it doesn’t look like Anne.

I don’t know if that was just a poor dummy that they subbed in or if that was supposed to mean something, but it was super confusing, ’cause it doesn’t look like Anne at all. 

Craig: And you just, you see her so briefly and, and honestly there were several parts. Anne looks, to me, in the movie, looked different depending on her hairstyle, and she wore several different hairstyles.

Mm. So I kinda had trouble tracking her anyway, but This is the part where Dr. David comes over and she’s like, “I killed Anne.” By the way- … the murder of Anne happened in the morning, but, or at noon, but Dr. David doesn’t come over until nighttime. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But he drags her upstairs and he’s like, “Look, there’s no body.”

And she’s like, “What?” And that’s when they have that intimate scene with the face touching and finger kissing. ‘

Todd: Cause it’s 12:00 now. It’s her birthday. He says, “We’re coming very close, Virginia. We need to find the link between your trauma and your friends, and I think we can figure out what’s going on.”

Craig: Right. Like, what did your f- what did your friends have to do with it? Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess, I guess Dr. David starts to be a little bit more suspicious when, because a detective knocks at the door the next day and says, “Anne So-and-so is missing. Her car is parked right down the street. Her parents said the last place she said she was coming was here.”

And this is when Dr. David was like, “Uh, no, I, I was here all day yesterday and nobody came over.” Mm-hmm. Like, why would you say that? 

Todd: He’s covering for her 

Craig: in 

Todd: some way. 

Craig: Why would he s- yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. That’s when it, I thought- 

Craig: I 

Todd: guess … oh, is he doing something? Yeah, that’s what I thought- Me 

Craig: too … 

Todd: at this moment. 

Craig: And this is where, again, I don’t r- I don’t remember what inspires it this time, but we get the birthday party flashback.

Todd: This is a whole movie of its own, honestly. 

Craig: It is. And it, it really feels like it goes on for, like, 20 minutes. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: The, the mom has set up a birthday party for Virginia, who I think is played by the same actress, but they do a really good job of making her look younger. I don’t know, maybe that girl is a younger sister or something.

But, uh, she’s got this beautiful party set up in a, in a cottage that’s apparently on their property. Had we ever seen that cottage before? 

Todd: It’s so funny because she just mentioned, uh, she wanted to have it at our cottage, and I’m like, “Oh, okay, they have a cottage somewhere.” Later on we realize that the cottage is just literally behind the house, kind of between the cemetery and their house.

Yes. Like- Yes, it is … why do you have a cottage on your pro- you gotta have a cottage somewhere, like, on a lake somewhere for you to retreat to. Why is it in your backyard? It- 

Craig: The mom has set up this elaborate, very girly, very pretty decorated party with a beautiful cake in the middle of this round table and- Oh, she’s got a 

Mr. Beak: dress on and everything.

Craig: The, the mom’s dressed to the nines. The first thing that happens is they get a phone call, and it’s the dad, and the dad says that he’s still out of the country. He’s not gonna make it back. Virginia’s sad, but she doesn’t wanna make her dad feel bad, so when he says, “Are you having fun at your party? Are all your little friends there?”

She’s like, “Yeah.” 

Todd: Everyone’s here. All six of them. 

Craig: Yeah, yes. And then when she hangs up, the mom’s like, “Why did you lie? Why did you say that?” She said, “Well, I didn’t wanna make him feel bad. Uh, he promised he’d throw me a party when he gets back.” Mm-hmm. And he, the mom says, “Your, your dad never follows through.”

And she’s like, “God, where are your little friends?” It’s like they’re like, they’re over an hour late at this point. And Virginia finally breaks down in tears and says, “They’re not coming. Anne’s throwing a party at her house and they’re all going to Anne’s.” And this ticks the mom off for reasons that are unclear at this point.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But she’s like, “Those dirty bastards, they can’t treat me like this anymore. I’m rich now. We’ll show them. If they don’t come to your party, we’ll go to their party.” 

Todd: She’s so over the top. 

Craig: Super, it’s very melodramatic. And, and she drives drunk to this gated house and, and she’s pounding on the gate and saying, “Let us in.

Let us in.” In the rain. It’s pouring 

Todd: down rain. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Um, and somebody, I, I guess a groundskeeper or something, comes to the door and she says, “Get the man of the house.” She used his name, but I don’t know it. Will 

Todd: Thomerson. 

Craig: Yeah. “Get Will Thomerson out here. I’ll- Tell him to tell it to my face that my daughter’s not welcome here or whatever.”

And he’s like, “That’s all in the past. You’ve gotta just let it go.” And he walks away and she says, “They can’t continue to ignore me. I’m rich now and I’m gonna make them pay,” or something I can’t be 

Todd: bought off ever again. 

Craig: Again. 

Todd: What? Yeah. You were like, “What the hell is she talking about?” 

Craig: Right. I know, but it, it, then all of a sudden I’m like, oh my God, th- there is so much intrigue here that we don’t know yet, and surely we’re going to find out.

Right. And we kind of do- … but it’s very strange. Okay, so anyway, the mother’s gonna make them pay. We cut back to present day. Again, for reasons unknown a- at this point at least, Virginia kills Dr. David with a fireplace poker and just- Uh … splashes the walls covered in blood. 

Todd: There is so much blood here.

There is so much blood it’s nuts. Ugh. Apparently the director was, got kind of a reputation for just throwing blood around the set for some of these scenes- Uh-huh … to the point where, like, the crew was like, “Hey man, you’re getting it on our, on our lenses and stuff. Somebody needs to slow this guy down.”

This is gruesome, yeah. I mean, they just made up for the fact that it didn’t really show the bludgeoning- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: uh, much by splashing blood everywhere, so. 

Craig: Here’s where things get wild. The dad gets home. He finds all the blood in the house and he’s like, “No, not my baby, not my baby.” He runs out, I guess, looking for Virginia at the wife’s grave.

He sees somebody standing there, but when he turns her around, it’s one of the pretty friends that’s, was around sometimes but didn’t really have much of a story. Yeah. And this part was very confusing to me because she didn’t look dead. 

Todd: No. Was she dead? 

Craig: I don’t know what was happening. She was just standing there and she didn’t say anything.

Todd: Uh, yeah. 

Craig: She must have been dead. I don’t know. 

Todd: I guess. They, we don’t see her again. 

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t remember. He also finds somebody’s dug up the mom. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So he looks around, he sees the, the light is on in the cottage. 

Todd: He also finds the body of the doctor there as well. 

Craig: Yes. Right. Right Oh, boy.

So no bueno. So he walks up to the cottage. He walks into the room. That, this was some great expectation shit where- … apparently nobody had touched that room since the night of the party. Right. And so, like, it’s all still set up with the cake, like, rotting on the table, and the, the decorations are all, you know, covered in cobwebs and stuff.

And all of her friends and her decomposed mother are sat in the chairs around the table, and he’s standing there in horror and she, Virginia, comes walking out of, I don’t know, another room, the kitchen presumably, in a, a nice pretty dress and carrying a cake singing Happy Birthday to Me. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. Oh, I loved it.

I loved it. She says, uh, “Daddy, you kept your promise to me. You came to my birthday party.” That was the motif, right? Was that he wasn’t reliable, he never showed up. Uh-huh. He actually came with packages this time. He was actually there. So I mean, it’s a pretty tragic little moment, and I really felt for this father, and I was also surprised because she was, like, the obvious villain.

I didn’t think she would end up being the villain, but here she is. But it makes sense. We’ve seen so many of these horror movies end this way. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: The traumatized person recreates the scene that they were traumatized by and, and in this horrible way, sets up the party with all the dead people. I mean, it’s so typical.

And he just, he just collapses, and he’s just got his head in his hands. And I’m looking at the time and I’m like, “There are 10 minutes left in this movie. W- how long are the credits?” 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And it’s quite a cake, and she blows out the cake, and then she’s like, “Daddy, would you like a slice? Do you want a big slice or a little slice?”

And he’s just head in hands, looks up, and she spins around suddenly with a knife and slashes his throat as well. Oh, okay. And then she puts the knife down, turns to a person whose body we, I guess we didn’t see earlier, but the head is down on the table and says, “Now it’s time for you, bitch,” lifts her head up, and it’s also her.

Clip: Yes. 

Todd: And I’m like, “Oh my God, are we in, like, initiation, the initiation territory here? We’ve got a twin situation?” W- I, I… My mind is rushing on overdrive trying to sort this out. How could there be a twin in the mix here? Was the psychiatrist working with somebody else? Was this girl hidden? Was she switching back and forth?

Was one at the school and one at home, and were we tricked this whole time? I’m waiting for the flashback scenes to make this clear. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And then the one who’s sitting down comes to And she sees the other girl, and she gets confused, and they have a little tussle. She reaches over to her and she pulls a mask off of her face, like in Scooby-Doo fashion- 

Clip: Uh-huh

Todd: and reveals that it’s not her face underneath there. It’s her friend Anne. And I was, like, on the floor dying at this point. 

Clip: I… 

Craig: Me too. Me too. Yeah, it was wild. ‘Cause I, like, in my notes I’m like, “Evil twin?” 

Todd: And then you’re like- 

Craig: Anne in a mask? What is happening? 

Todd: Did not see that coming. And Anne has to explain it all because otherwise we would have no idea what’s going on.

Craig: I’m not entirely sure I still know, but Anne feels wronged. 

Todd: Yeah. Because I think, and, and again, I think, you remember Kevin Williamson, when he went to Hollywood and he wrote the script for Scream, he went and decided he wanted to write a horror movie, and he went and watched a whole bunch of old horror movies.

I guarantee you he watched this movie and cribbed directly from it because this is essentially the Scream motivation. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Your mother was a whore, and she slept with my dad, and she was his mistress, and she broke up our family and ruined our family, and so now I’m getting my revenge on you. 

Craig: And you are his daughter.

Todd: Yes, you’re his daughter. 

Craig: And something like, “And he never let my mom forget that,” or something. I’m like, “What? What are you talking…” So, like, it, it ruined her family and ruined her life and- 

Todd: Now she’s also her daughter … 

Craig: yeah, and they are, like, biological sisters. But so why did she have to kill all of her other friends?

Todd: I don’t know. It’s the same problem with Scream, right? Like, why did they kill all those people when they really had the problem with just her? Ugh. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: It’s hilarious. 

Craig: They struggle briefly, like, for a couple of seconds, and there’s a knife. They’re struggling over a knife. Ultimately, quickly, Anne gets stabbed in the struggle right as the detective is walking in.

And he looks at Virginia and says, “What have you done?” And she just starts singing Happy Birthday to me. And that’s the end. 

Todd: So not only have we had this, like, triple twist with a mask being pulled off and all this shit, but she’s gonna end up being blamed for everything. 

Craig: Anyway. 

Todd: Anyway. 

Craig: Yeah. And like, and like- Oh

three quar- Oh, so I read that it was like they were three-quarters of the way through filming the movie when the actress who plays Anne was told, “We’re changing the ending. You’re gonna be the killer now.” Like, and she didn’t even know that. 

Todd: She was supposed to die, yeah, along with everybody else, 

Craig: so. Yes, along with everybody else.

And, and what it was supposed to be was that Virginia was periodically kind of being possessed by the spirit of her mother, and this was her mother’s revenge. And ultimately, I guess, they decided that there were too many other scripts floating around that were somewhat similar in nature, and so they decided at the last minute to change it.

So that meant that there really were no clues for what the ultimate ending ended up being. Mm-hmm. There’s one point in the very beginning right after the car jump over the bridge where Anne looks at her ominously. That’s it. That’s the only indication. Well, and, and when she explains, when Anne explains what has happened, they walk us through the whole thing.

Yeah. We, we see how Anne pulled off every murder, at least to some extent. 

Todd: It was just chloroform everywhere. Movie- 

Craig: Yes … 

Todd: movie chloroform. Virginia is there. She screams and walks past Anne, who sticks her arm out and smashes chloroform on her face like three or four times to put her out, so then she kills the person and then leaves Anne there to wake up.

Ugh. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: right. I mean, not Anne. Leaves, uh, Virginia- Virginia … there to 

Craig: wake up. Leaves Virginia there to wake up. Yeah. Right. And that’s why she’s always confused and doesn’t know. Now, the, the… I think that… I, I, I don’t think that they were wrong. I think that the being possessed by Mom thing- 

Todd: Yeah, that’d be dumb

Craig: I mean, these… I, I guess. I mean, it, it’s- It’d be okay, but … it’s no more cliche. It’d be fine, but I, I, I don’t think that they were wrong to maybe try something different. But it, it ends up being a little bit clunky. But I feel like I see the remnants of what it was supposed to be early on in the movie, especially more than once, but especially with the whole Virginia seducing Steve at the dance- No

and at her house. 

Todd: The moments where 

Craig: she- That se- … seems 

Todd: to be, like, a different person, doesn’t she? 

Craig: Right. Her behavior was so out of character for her in those scenes that it would’ve made sense to me. But it also just crossed my mind that maybe, ’cause we’ve seen this several times before, that maybe she was just disassociating.

Like, maybe she had dissociative personality disorder or- Right … something like that. So her, you know, actual consciousness wasn’t aware of what her other personality was doing, and that would’ve tracked with the brain injury and stuff, but- 

Todd: Well, also, it could also have been Anne in her disguise at those moments 

Craig: Oh, that’s true 

Todd: It could have been.

I mean- 

Craig: But I don’t think it was 

Todd: No Because I- But I don’t know. If you w- kinda went back and played it out, it’s possible, I suppose 

Craig: I would wanna go back and look at the Steve scene because I’m… If I remember correctly, she chloroformed Virginia after Virginia had already prepared the kebabs. 

Todd: Oh. 

Craig: And then she just took advantage of that.

Oh, yeah. It’s like, I’m pretty sure- She was walking 

Todd: out with the kebabs or whatever, yeah. 

Craig: Uh-huh. Mm. Yeah. So anyway, whatever. It is what it is. 

Todd: Well, think about it though, Craig. They filmed all of this with Virginia being the killer until later on they decided they were gonna make it Anne being in disguise.

If they had just stuck with that, you have a, a big anomaly of a movie, which is what this movie seemed to be at first, where halfway through suddenly the killer’s just shown to us. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Like, halfway through suddenly we see Virginia literally killing people. 

Craig: Right. That’s right. 

Todd: Like, that’s very different.

And so as the movie was going on and that started happening, you know, I thought again, like, “My God, this is so different from how these movies usually go. What is that twist gonna be?” So- 

Mr. Beak: Mm-hmm … 

Todd: in a way, they corrected it into something, I think, better than what they originally had. And it’s, it’s convoluted and weird.

It’s a last-minute fumble through some nonsense, but I thought it was fun in its ridiculousness. And I loved that last- Yeah. 

Craig: Oh, I do too 

Todd: I love that last dig at the end where it’s like, then she’s gonna get blamed for all this shit? Like, can you make this more bleak? 

Craig: True. Right, right, right. 

Todd: Oh, satisfying.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Ultimately it was worth it for me. I, I, I really enjoyed this mo- I… As I was watching this movie, I didn’t think I would come to the end of it and have enjoyed it as much as I ended up enjoying it by the end. Again, like you said, I really thought it was well made, I thought it was well shot. The whole time through I was very conscious of, you know, this is a step above, and it’s ki- it’s intriguing and it’s got a lot of stuff in there and I’m curious about what’s going on, but it is kind of plodding a little bit and these red herrings are a little obvious and they’re kinda getting in the way.

I mean, be a little respectful of my time here, you know? Can we tighten this up a little bit? 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: But man, by the end of it I was like, “All right,” like, “I’m really glad I saw that. It was fun.” 

Craig: Yeah. I am too. Um, if you wanna… And, and, and I didn’t love it, but there were a lot of things that I really liked about it, and it was a good watch.

I- definitely worth seeing, I think. If you wanna watch it, take my advice and go ahead and splurge. Treat yourself- … and spend 3.50 to rent it. On Prime or somewhere else because I ended up watching it on Tubi, which meant that with all of the ads, it came in at well over two hours. 

Todd: Oh, God. 

Craig: And that just felt…

It, it was too long. 

Todd: God. 

Craig: Yeah, it was, it was a little bit rough, but, but ultimately a good movie, and I’m, I’m really glad we finally got around to doing it. Thank you for the request. It, it really has been on our list for years and years, and so it’s, it’s always nice to get a re- to get a request for one of those movies that we’ve talked about for so long and we’ve just never gotten around to.

It, you know, it gives us a good reason to finally get around to it, and usually we are pleasantly surprised and, and this time I was as well. 

Todd: Absolutely. And just in case you might have noticed, those people who go to our website and, uh, talk to us and send us a little voice message, we tend to fast-track their requests through.

Clip: Yeah. 

Todd: Normally our requests come through our patrons, where people send us requests throughout the, the month and on our patron channel at patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. For just five bucks a month they have access, and, uh, not only do they get access to our complete unedited episodes where these phone calls and a lot of personal stuff about us, complete access to us.

We have a lot of chatter going on behind the scenes. We post minisodes there every now and then, little reviews and things that are going on in our lives. We also have a book club that’s going on. We also will have, uh, from time to time a little poll of those requests that we’ve gotten and have our patrons collectively choose which is the request we’re gonna do next.

So if any of that interests you, go to patreon.com/chainsawpodcast and, uh, join the club for just five bucks a month. I think it’s, I think it’s well worth it. On top of that, you could fast-track your request by going to chainsawhorror.com and just clicking Talk to Us and sending us a message. We’d like that, too.

Anyway, no matter how you send us a message, whether it’s on our Facebook page, our Instagram page, our email addresses, those other channels, we just love hearing from you. If you’ve got a birthday this month, let us know what you did this month. We’d be curious to find out. And then, uh, maybe on your birthday month we can do Bloody Birthday.

Until next time, I am Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We dive into the Taiwanese found footage horror hit Incantation (2022), now on Netflix, and talk through why it became a massive success in Taiwan and why it’s left so many viewers unsettled.

We discuss its clever use of mixed camera sources, the fourth-wall breaks that pull the audience into the curse, and how the film’s non-chronological structure parcels out its story.

Along the way we unpack the ghost-hunter backstory, the taboo tunnel shrine and folk rituals, the escalating body horror centered on a young child, and the bleak implications of the film’s “chant with me” setup.

We also compare its cursed-footage vibe to The Ring and talk about how its atmosphere and emotional stakes keep it intense, even when parts are hard to follow.

Episode 423, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, this week, uh, I got to pick our selection, and I thought we would dive back into some foreign films. I think the last time we did a foreign movie, it was an older movie. And so I was, uh, out and about, I think on some forums or something, reading about people s- asking, “What is the…

What are the freakiest movies you’ve seen? What are the movies that were so unsettling when you left them, and, and, you know, you couldn’t stop thinking about them?” And this movie that we’re doing today, Incantation, came up several times, and people were like, “Oh yeah, that one really unsettled me. I, I, I found it a hard watch,” or, “It really stuck with me after for a while.”

And I’d never heard of it before. It’s a Taiwanese film. It was from 2022, and it’s a found footage horror movie. You could call it folk horror, body horror, that kind of thing. And so I thought, yeah, this would be kind of a fun thing to put out there. It’s available on Netflix. I think it was distributed by Netflix after it became such a huge hit in Taiwan.

In fact, I think to date it’s the highest grossing Taiwanese horror film, and in 2022 was the highest grossing Taiwanese film. 

Craig: Wow. 

Todd: Yeah. It made, I think, five-point-something million dollars on a one- about a $1.2 million budget. So, uh, yeah. It’s on Netflix in case you wanna see it after we’re done talking about it.

Obviously, this is my first time seeing it. I know you, Craig, like to sometimes just watch the dubbed version, and there was a dubbed version available. I’m curious to know if you- that’s the one you watched, or if you watched it in its original language. 

Craig: No, I did watch the dubbed version. I didn’t even realize that there was an option.

That’s just, when I selected it on Netflix, that’s what happened- Just what came up. Yeah … it was the dubbed version. Yeah. And the dub is just okay. Like, it’s not bad, but it’s not great either. Yeah. It’s just okay. 

Todd: I ended up watching that too. 

Craig: Did you? Yeah. There, there were times when I wondered, and of course I’ll never know, but I wondered if some things were kind of lost in translation.

Some things felt a little bit strange. But beyond that, no, I had never even heard of it And I’m less inclined to watch foreign films than I used to be, and I think some of it just has to do with getting older and my attention span is less than it- … once was, or, or my focus isn’t as good as it once was.

But I usually, especially with something that was as successful as this, I’ve usually at least heard of it, and I don’t think that I’ve heard of this. And it was interesting. I found it hard to follow at times. It was an interesting premise and kind of, I don’t wanna call it a gimmick even though I really do kind of think it’s a gimmick, i- in that it’s, it’s found footage, I guess you would…

I mean, it is, it’s found footage. But the person, the main character of the movie who’s doing most of the filming, and it’s not like this has never happened before, but she breaks the fourth wall and addresses you, the audience- Right. 

Todd: Right … 

Craig: on a, on a semi-regular basis And I thought that was interesting and something you don’t, or I haven’t seen a lot.

So there’s some interesting stuff going on here. I don’t know. What, I mean, did you have any expectations going in or- 

Todd: Yeah, no. I had no expectations going in. You know, I, I… Well, part of why I picked it, when I learned it was a found footage movie, I thought you might enjoy it because I know you like found footage quite a bit.

Craig: I like it fine. 

Todd: Yeah, and I’ve warmed up to it considerably over the years. You know, there’s been… This one is almost found footage in disguise because the fact that it’s being filmed with cameras and things, I, you almost forget that it is- 

Craig: Yeah … 

Todd: because they’re using camera angles from so many different potential sources.

Like, it’s almost like somebody went through and cut together the CCTV footage from the hospital and whatever security camera might have been in the corner of this room and- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: and it’s all pretty seamlessly presented. And the found footage element of it itself, I don’t think it’s… It’s not as gimmicky as it often is.

They’re not playing a lot of games with it like they often do where that’s just kind of a front and center c- notion. You know? Someone’s running around with a video camera and they, they’re swinging the camera this way, and they’re swinging the camera that way and, and you know, they’re… It’s all shaky and all this.

Like, this just isn’t like that, and I, I liked that about it. 

Craig: Well, it, it approaches it in, you know, at least a somewhat clever way. 

Todd: Sometimes. 

Craig: Like, the, the main character, when she’s shooting footage, she’s framing it that she’s shooting, like, a video diary for her daughter. Like, she’s, she’s saving things for posterity.

So, like, sh- it’s not like she’s just running around with a camera for no reason. Yeah. At least according to her, it’s like she’s trying to record things for posterity. And then we also jump back in time to when she, this main character, used to be, like, oh, gosh, a ghost hunter. G- I, I think they call them ghost busters.

That’s the translation or whatever. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But, you know, just one of those internet or cable television shows where people with handheld cameras and some lighting and sound equipment go around and, like, look at old scary places and- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: so there’s, there, there’s reason to have that footage as well. So, a- and, and like you said, they do make use of, like, CCTV and, and security footage and that kind of stuff, which- You know?

I don’t know who we’re supposed to believe edited this movie and put it together for us. Right. They had a lot of access. 

Todd: They did. I, I- Well, by the end of it, if you want to watch this movie, you should probably watch it before we start talking about it, because the movie bounces around a lot in sequence, right?

There’s, there’s a lot of- Mm-hmm … what you said, like flashback. It’s very book-ended, and it, it turns out to be more of a purpose than just video diary for her daughter. In fact, by the end of the movie, the notion is kind of that she has tricked us, the audience, and I thought that element of it was pretty clever.

And I imagine that superstitious people are probably the most freaked out by it. You know, I… When people talked about online about how they, they left the movie very unsettled and they, and they felt freaked out, I think that what this director does that I haven’t seen too much in other movies is that he brings the audience into the situation.

This woman not implicates us, but brings us into it and makes us a participant in this, uh, curse or whatever that’s happening. And I’ll bet if you’re particularly freaked out about this, if you, if you imagine this is real or you’re just particularly superstitious, you could feel, like, pretty unsettled by that at the end.

Craig: I’m not particularly suspicious, but I also felt like I knew what the movie was doing from the beginning. Now, I, I- Hmm … when, again, when the main character addresses us at the end and reveals, you know, something that she had been keeping secret, I thought that it was effective, but I wasn’t particularly surprised.

Right, right. And I, and I thought that because it’s… I don’t remember specifically how it starts out. I think it starts out with some old home movies, I don’t even, in black and white. I don’t even remember- But then just some very strange imagery, almost like optical illusions. Like at first it was a Ferris wheel, and there is a voiceover that tells you, it’s this main character, I believe her name was Rowan.

Is that her name? 

Todd: Ronan. Ronan, yeah, Ronan, is probably the easiest way to say it. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Her voiceover tells us that your mind can manipulate what you see. A- and I’ve seen these types of things before. You know, it’s like an optical illusion type of thing. Like, are the stairs going up or down? Or, you know, and, uh, she, she, the Ferris wheel.

And I don’t know if they manipulated the video or if it was just my mind. I think it could be either, because I’ve seen optical illusions before. But yes, I saw the Ferris wheel spinning one way, and then I saw it spinning the other. And then it showed video of a moving train, and it’s like d- you know, depending on how your brain interprets it, the train could be going either way.

And I, I could see that too, and I was like, “I see what you’re doing here.” 

Todd: But 

Craig: even more so when at some point some sort of symbol came up, and it came up with a very prominent sound cue. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And when I say symbol, I don’t know if it’s a letter or, or what. This is- 

Todd: It’s definitely… No, it’s just kinda some, some symbol.

It’s, it’s definitely not in Chinese or anything like that. 

Craig: Okay. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But, you know, it, it’s, it’s just red on a black screen, and I, I think that there’s, like, some chanting or, like, throat singing behind it, and she says, “Okay, I need you to chant something with me.” I, I was like, “I… No.” 

Todd: I’m not doing that shit.

Craig: I’ve, I’ve, I’ve seen people fall for this trick a million times. We’ve 

Todd: seen enough horror 

Craig: movies. Absolutely not. 

Todd: Yeah. She- Yeah … and she says, “Stare at it until you memorize it.” 

Craig: Yeah. And, and, a- honestly, like, she kind of, she, she does it several times throughout the movie, and in the end it becomes very intense, and she asks to do it again.

And, like, they even have, the version that I watched and that I assumed you watched, had the translation of what you were chanting on the screen. Mm-hmm Was mostly just kind of like a stream of consciousness of words, but it didn’t sound great and- Though, though I am not suspicious, I was like, “I am not going to sit here and stare at this and listen.”

Like, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s real. Like- Oh. Yeah, okay. I, I, I, I f- I felt like I knew what… Ultimately we were going to be told we had been tricked into doing something that we shouldn’t have done. Yeah. I knew that. 

Todd: Ah. 

Craig: And so I wasn’t going to fall for it. Gotcha. And I didn’t. I looked away. 

Todd: Good for you.

You, you’re safe. You’re safe from the curse. Well, I like how the movie set us up that way, so we knew this was gonna be this kind of film, and it directly brought us into, like, “We are asking something of you. We want you to do this.” And then I like how the movie kept my interest by not going in chronological order.

I think the next thing we see is a girl, a little girl on a bed, and she’s got sores or something all over her body, and she looks like she’s in pain and, and it’s lit with just, like, a flashlight, I think the light from the camera. And it’s like the bed opens up to show us all of her sores and everything, and as she turns over she lets out almost a scream, and it’s almost like she has rows of teeth inside there.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: The camera kind of goes in on that. So you also get a little bit of a preview for what’s to come. It’s all pretty unsettling. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And she pretty much I think almost outright says, you know, “This is about a curse on my six-year-old daughter. Here’s how things kinda went down.” And some of it is also interview, and I guess it’s her interviewing.

I’m not quite sure who’s the one who’s interviewing this man at the foster home. It’s, like, a man who runs a little, a foster home, almost like a one-man foster center or something like that. 

Craig: I, yeah, I mean, I guess it’s her. I guess it’s… Uh. I guess. But she’s on camera, so it can’t be her. Who is- 

Todd: I don’t know.

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t 

Todd: know. But she, she’s coming to pick up her, what we, we learn slowly is that she’s coming to pick up her daughter, but we also learn that she hasn’t seen her daughter in probably that, her whole life- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: because she’s been in a mental institution. And so we don’t know why. We don’t know if her daughter was taken from her or what the deal is at first.

Later we learn that she gave her up voluntarily to protect her from this curse. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: But right now we know nothing about this. And, you know, i- at first I thought, and, and, and even as the girl is talking to this man, she calls him Daddy. And I’m like, “Oh, is this somehow her dad?” But then later he reveals that she just liked to call him Daddy because she was the only father figure in his life, and he kind of liked that.

And that ends up being an interesting character element that is really important to be set up for later. Because later on in the movie, he makes a choice that I think would be very hard to believe if it weren’t for everything that kind of came before it about, you know, this guy’s sort of emotional attachment to this girl and to the idea of being a dad, and that he wanted to be a dad and he couldn’t be a dad because of, he was unable to have children.

So this stuff is really layered out in a clever and I think really smart way early in the movie, things like this, so that later on it makes sense, it’s believable, it doesn’t catch you by surprise. You know, it’s just really good about setting things up and, and fulfilling those, getting a payoff for every single bit.

I thought that the construction of the movie was really smart and really clever. Th- just the way that things were parceled out between what happened in the past and bouncing back to what hap- what’s happening now, I found that kept my interest. But I get… I g- I’m getting the sense that you got a little bored with it.

Craig: It wasn’t that I was bored. I… There was just a lot going on. Like, you know, all of the stuff you just said, we also get, I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, some history, like, I feel like Ronan’s history was tragic, too. Like, she… Wasn’t she in a terrible car accident in which both of her parents were killed?

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And we see that in very graphic fashion. It’s wild. And, and we see that she witnessed it all And, you know, then your, everything that you said, and then she takes the, the daughter’s name is Dodo, Toto? 

Todd: Yeah, they call it Dodo in the movie, but I think in Chinese it would sound more like Duoduo. 

Craig: Okay.

Well, I’m not gonna try that. No, 

Todd: that’s fine. Dodo is an unfortunate translation, but yeah, Dodo is kinda what you read and what you hear. 

Craig: She take, she takes her home and, you know, kind of spooky things happen, like a window breaks and there’s a bug, a big bug or something. And y- you can tell, it’s kinda one of those, it’s, it’s very classic for found footage movies where somebody just leaves a camera.

Like, they walk away from the camera, and then something that they weren’t trying to capture is captured. Yeah. And in this case, the mom walks away to investigate the broken window, and so the camera just remains in frame on Dodo, and she looks up. Something out of frame and above her has caught her attention.

And so you know there’s something weird and supernatural going on, and the power goes out, and there’s spilled milk in the fridge, and then somebody’s turning the light off and on. Like, there’s all kinds of weird things. And then- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: Toto’s in bed, but then she’s not anymore, and she’s outside chanting, and she looks like the lady from Ju-On for a minute.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And there was so much going on. And then it cuts to six or seven years back. It was difficult for me to follow. 

Todd: Okay. 

Craig: Yeah. I just wasn’t, sh- I- I’m like, “What is happening? I don’t know what is happening.” 

Todd: To be honest with you, that whole bit, and I think it’s all in pretty much one shot after a point, because it’s this mom carrying the camera around.

And the reason she’s carrying the camera around is because it’s her only light source. So we’ve seen that before in found footage movies, right? Yeah. They’re using the camera as a light source, so that’s a clever way of getting us to see everything she’s seeing. Justifying it, 

Craig: yeah, 

Todd: mm-hmm. Yeah. And she’s going through, and although I think it’s an impressive long one-shot sequence where a lotta creepy shit happens- 

Craig: Yeah