2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

This week, we pay tribute to the legendary Kris Kristofferson by reviewing the 1998 cult superhero classic, Blade. Join us as we explore Kristofferson’s impactful role, dissect the film’s iconic action scenes, and discuss its place as a precursor to the modern Marvel era.

In This Episode:

– A heartfelt tribute to Kris Kristofferson, his versatile career, and lasting impact on film and music.
– Detailed analysis of Blade (1998), revisiting its groundbreaking effects and martial arts choreography.
– Trivia and behind-the-scenes insights into the making of Blade.
– Our personal reflections on Kristofferson’s role as Whistler and the film’s legacy.

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell for more horror movie reviews and discussions! Share your favorite Kris Kristofferson moments with us in the comments below.

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Share your thoughts and favorite scenes from Blade (1998) in the comments below! We love hearing from all of you!

Episode 415, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, we come to that time where we do a tribute episode, and, you know, this is something that I kind of learned a little later. I don’t know how I find out when. People die. I guess it comes across my social media or it comes across the news probably and I think for me I think it was like a big news thing like cnn or new york times It was doing a retrospective about Kris Kristofferson who actually died late september So now that we’re done with all of our halloween holiday stuff before we kick off into Christmas and it becomes a new year I did want to revisit him because he’s another one of those actors that for me has just kind of Been around and he pops up in all kinds of places.

And I also knew he was a country singer and things like that. Just, he’s just been a guy who’s kind of always been there. You know, not at the forefront of my mind by any means. Like, Oh, there he is again. And I didn’t know that much about him. And I thought this would be kind of a fun opportunity to see if he had done any horror movies so that we could talk about them.

And I could also learn a little bit more about him myself. And so here we are doing a tribute episode for Kris Kristofferson. And the episode that we settled on was 1998’s Blade. A movie that I knew we were going to get to eventually. So we might as well do it now. He has a fairly prominent role in this one.

And I’m glad we came to Blade because, uh, I have not seen Blade, I think, since it came out. I remember renting this with buddies and thinking it was pretty cool. And I think I saw the sequel as well. I’m really fuzzy on that. And then I just kind of left it. So, uh, this is going to be my first time revisiting it since the nineties.

How about you, Craig? 

Craig: Yeah, I don’t know. I saw it when it came out, I guess. And I think I’ve seen both the sequels, but it’s been a really long time. You know, I was reminded about it recently. You know, this was Marvel maybe had done like one other or a couple other superhero movies, but. They hadn’t really taken off yet and they had just done, Oh, one of the Batman sequels, the notoriously bad one, I think with George Clooney and the bat nipples had come out just right before this, you know, the entertainment industry just kind of announced, you know, like the, the superhero movie genre is dead.

Like that, that Batman movie with the bat nipples killed it. Everyone got a lot less enthusiastic after that one. Yeah. But then this came out and it did. pretty well and it spawned some sequels that I think the second one did okay and I think Wesley Snipes thought that the second one was the best one. I honestly don’t remember.

I, I do remember that by the time the third one rolled around, I don’t know if Wesley Snipes was upset with the director or what, but I read that he was just a nightmare on set. Like he wouldn’t even like open his eyes, like in, like in shots and scenes, like he wouldn’t open his eyes. I don’t know. My point though, was that this kind of is the, like Marvel is so huge now.

In an annoying way, frankly. Like, I’m over it. I get it. I’m so over it. I get why those movies are fun and exciting and, you know, pre COVID when I still went to movie theaters, which I don’t really do anymore. They’re fun to watch on the big screen, but we just got so oversaturated with them. Yeah. I’m done.

Like, give me a f ing break from these videos. F ing superhero movies. 

Todd: It’s too much to keep track of, you know? I know. I remember when there was like a new one a year, or maybe two a year, and they, they interconnected with each other, and that was kind of exciting, and you’d wait for the end credit thing to see what was coming next, and then, you know, we knew it was all gonna culminate in like that one Avenge you know, those three Avengers movies, right?

Yeah. And it was fun to follow those interlocking stories and all that, but now I don’t know, man. There are TV series, there’s, uh, 15 movies a year. It seems like it’s too much to fill my brain with, and it’s just another one of those cases, in my opinion, of just like, too much of a good thing, suddenly you don’t like it anymore.

Right. It all becomes mush, and it’s not special. That’s true. I think they’ve done the same thing with the Star Wars franchise, to be honest. But 

Craig: that’s, yeah, that’s, that’s true as well. I mean, it’s so ubiquitous that it almost can’t be avoided. Like I’m still watching stuff, you know, like I’m watching Agatha all along now, which is a Marvel properties, spin off of Scarlet or WandaVision with the Scarlet Witch and like, and I’m not saying that some of those movies aren’t good.

They are like, I do enjoy them. Some of them are really funny. The funnier ones. I prefer those. It’s just so much anyway, that’s. Getting off topic, the point is Blade was kind of a precursor to this era. Yeah. And it seems very much in keeping with this era even though it also reeks of the 90s. It does. It’s very Matrix.

It’s very Yes. Charlie’s Angels. fascinated by really fast martial arts to like industrial techno music for a minute. Yes. 

Todd: And like bullet time and all these cool new effects you could do with CGI, which, you know, could, could really enhance the action and make things exciting. It’s hard to believe I’ve thought for a minute, okay, this was definitely very inspired by the matrix, but actually this came out a year.

Matrix did so it almost seems like this movie may have inspired some of the action in the matrix as well 

Craig: The thing that I read and of course, who knows you read things on the internet Who knows if they’re true or not, but people, you know associated the the two movies But really they were both written and in production Approximately at the same time.

Right. So it’s unlikely that they had any impact on each other at all. 

Todd: Sure. They just captured the way Hollywood was going, or the zeitgeist. Exactly. 

Craig: That’s what I was going to say. There were lots of those movies. Really, The Matrix, people, you know, talk about it was so innovative, it was such a big thing.

And it was, but there was a lot of that just because the technology was developing. And so you were seeing these similar effects. And similar shooting styles in a lot of movies, the Matrix just happened to be one of the better of them. And this movie, I wasn’t super excited to go back to it, frankly. Like I, I, it’s not that I remember disliking it.

I just had in my head, I have a feeling this will not have aged well. And ultimately I think I’m right, like, the action sequences are fun, if you’re like down for that, if you’re in the mood for it, and there are a lot of them. I was a little bit shocked at the effects, the digital effects, like the CGI is crazy, like, not good.

Todd: It’s pretty bad. I mean we kind of forget how bad it was back then because back then this stuff Even though by net by today’s standards, it’s bad was blowing us away because we were seeing it all kind of for the first time 

Craig: Yeah, and I’m not as I’m not as much of a gamer as you are But I feel like these looked like video game special effects Like I like I felt like I was playing like a first person Like horror shooter 

Todd: make no mistake video games were still very polygony when this came out like, 

Craig: you know, they 

Todd: were still right, right, right By today’s standards.

No, you’re right. What video games are today is kind of what this looks like Well, you know go back a few years, but it’s what this looks like right now Yeah somewhere in between and I think another point you’re trying to make as well You you know, you were talking about marvel. This is one of the first movies to really go super dark With comic book characters, it certainly wasn’t the first Okay, obviously we had the Tim Burton Batman, which I think you could credit with that and that was like at 89 I think 88 89 and then at some point the crow came along Before this in the early to mid 90s because we were all in kind of about the crow in high school But they were just starting to like make comic book movies that were not just being taken seriously But also we’re gonna go for grit And violence and put gore in there and very high stakes and really terrifying villains.

It’s no coincidence, obviously, that David Goyer, who wrote the screenplay for this, and was really responsible for developing this property, actually changing it from the comic book. This was based on a comic book, but the comic book character apparently was very different. They deliberately updated the comic book character for the nineties for this movie.

Subsequently, then. The comic book started to take the cue from the movie and change its tone and direction. I was surprised actually to learn that Blade was a character that was created for the Tomb of Dracula comic book series in the 70s. 

Craig: And the history of the comics is, is very interesting. Like, Blade was just a minor character.

I won’t remember it well enough. to recount it all. But if that’s something that you’re interested in, you should look into it. It’s, it’s very easy to research, and it is really interesting. Um, a minor character, really. Early on, anyway. Like, I think that maybe he had had a, like, one ten issue run. Yeah, he was introduced in something else.

But he did, I think he just had, like, before the movie was made, he had only been in like, one run of his own, like, Blade thing. Series or whatever. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: All very interesting and you know Wesley Snipes who plays Blade was looking into doing a like a superhero Role, but he was really pushing hard for Black Panther And again, this is you know in the early 90s that he’s pushing for this and what I don’t you know, whatever happened I don’t know what happened that that didn’t come about but this black half breed vampire character He landed.

What I’ll say about it is is that I, I think that this movie and his character are iconic. I don’t know that in the pantheon of comic book movies and comic book heroes that he’s near the top, but people know about this character. I mean, Wesley Snipes just cameoed in. Wolverine and Deadpool. Yeah, I mean, I think there were a million cameos in that movie, but he cameoed as blade So like his character in some earth or some reality multiverse or whatever is still around He’s a cultural entity.

You know, I mean like people know who blade is. Yeah, it’s a big deal 

Todd: My mom would know who blade is, you know, even if she hadn’t seen the movies She would have an idea right of what this is. Sure Yeah, and it’s important to point out because it’s very current just last month in October They officially pretty much pulled.

There has been a new blade sort of reboot that has been in development hell for like a decade. They’ve announced he’s going to be a part of the, of the universe. I think like in 2020, they were going to bring him into the Marvel universe again, but he’s going to be played by a different actor and then just kind of went through all these things and a movie had been announced a couple of years ago and it just got pulled.

Off the list in October and it seems like that’s just dead. So, you know, it’s kind of interesting we’re doing it now. We just happen to be doing this now as well. You know, a couple other things I just wanted to say about it real quick before we start getting into the story. And of course, eventually talk about Chris Kristofferson.

Of course. Who’s also super fascinating. I can’t wait to talk about him. But we last revisited a David S. Goyer movie. Just a couple months ago. And that was demonic toys. That was one of his very first screenplays. 

Craig: Oh my God. That’s hilarious. I had no idea. 

Todd: Crazy. Right? 

Craig: What a change, 

Todd: right? But he went on from there to do a sequel to the crow city of angels.

So you could see, you can see the trajectory of his writing, right? What he’s interested in. 

Craig: He did a couple of the really popular, like, didn’t he do like Batman begins and, and yes, dark night too. 

Todd: Oh yeah. Yeah. The first couple of those Batman movies. And before that, I think probably the one that made, that got him some attention.

Although, the script did. It came out the same year, was Dark City. Have you ever seen Dark City? 

Craig: No, I remember hearing about it, but I haven’t seen it. 

Todd: Dark City is one of those, like, underrated gems. If you remember it, you love it, and you go, Oh my god, why did I forget that movie? It was so good. I think it’s still good today.

But yeah, you’re right. He eat at Dark City, which is amazing. Two Blade movies, actually all three of them. He wrote, he directed, I believe the third one, Guillermo del Toro directed the second one. Gosh, it’s so interesting part in, uh, in, in history. And again, at this point where Marvel was starting to get okay with being dark, Marvel was not yet part of Disney.

Marvel was still making pennies on their properties over these little like little deals that they had in this case with new line. I 25 grand off of blade, even though it went on to make tens of millions of dollars worldwide, but yeah, this movie is. far more violent, for its time especially, than any comic book movie had really dared to be, with maybe the exception of The Crow.

There’s gore, there’s blood everywhere, limbs are coming off, it’s just, it’s pretty intense. And then of course, the martial arts action scenes, which were all the rage. 

Craig: I don’t know how, really, to approach the movie, because it’s, one, long, and two, Plot heavy. Is it though? I, I, I say plot heavy. I don’t know that it’s, yeah, the, I, I, I get Maybe not, I just mean it.

Like things are always happening and there’s a lot going on, so I don’t know how detailed we want to get, but basically the whole premise. You get in the very beginning, you get his backstory. This pregnant woman is on a hospital gurney, she’s being wheeled like into surgery or whatever, and you can clearly see that she’s got blood and teeth marks on her neck.

She’s been bitten by a vampire. And she gives birth to a baby, and then presumably, So Blade, because he was like, in utero, and his mother was bitten, like, he’s, he’s a, he’s a half breed. 

Todd: So like, he has all of the positive qualities of a vampire. But very few, if any, of the negative qualities, right? So he can handle daylight.

He’s immune to a lot of the sil the silver and all the stuff that they say in this movie that affects vampires doesn’t affect him. But also he’s like super strong and heals right away. And the only thing that he’s really struggling with, he’s trying to keep an addiction to blood at bay. He’s got a serum that has been developed that he has to constantly inject himself with.

So that he doesn’t have the urge to feed off of humans, right? To keep him pure. 

Craig: I guess. I didn’t really understand that like so I guess from his infancy to puberty He just lived on the streets I’m not sure we know sometime around puberty And I say that because they specifically say that in the movie.

Whistler, this old guy played by Chris Christopherson, finds him. Now we don’t see any of this. This is an exposition dump later. But grisly old Chris Christopherson finds him. 

Todd: As grisly as he could possibly be. He’s playing his grisliest in this one I think. And he’s played some pretty grisly guys. I 

Clip: found him when he was 13.

He was living on the streets, feeding off the homeless. His need for blood had taken hold at puberty. I took him for a vampire at first. Almost killed him, too. Then I realized what he was. Blade’s mother was attacked by a vampire while she was pregnant. She died, but he lived. Unfortunately, he’d undergone certain genetic changes.

He can withstand garlic, silver, even sunlight. And he’s got their strength. 

Craig: This is one of those things that, that feels like comic book lore. It’s a lot of world building, but in a two, even a two hour movie, which is long to me, even in a two hour movie, you have to do it so quickly that it just seems like a lot of information.

Like, 

Todd: what? Yeah. 

Craig: What is happening? Like, who are you? Right. Why are you? Adopting vampire children. How did you rehabilitate him again? What is happening? There are like two or three different serums in the movie like there’s a good serum and then there’s also a bad serum and

Todd: That’s true the bad serums blue and others serums red I will say this about the movie and it’s a positive and a negative The positive is that they don’t spend a lot of time bombarding you with this lore. Like, you, you get bits and pieces of it, a lot of it is very expediently given to you in these just corny exposition dumps, you know, when one character happens to have a break in their life and can sit down and explain everything to the character who just came on the scene.

And so, and there’s a lot of blanks to fill in that we may, maybe get in the sequels, I don’t know. I don’t really remember. But yeah, so the movie doesn’t bother itself too much with that. But then again, for a two hour movie, it’s kind of surprising. So what does the two hour movie fill itself with? I think it’s a very slow pace.

Craig: Oh, see, I don’t know, maybe I didn’t think it was slow at all. Like, I always felt like stuff was happening. I mean, it felt very Action heavy to me, 

Todd: but I thought from the very beginning we know where it’s going almost within maybe the first 10 to 15 minutes We’ve we establish who the big bad guy is we establish what his goal more or less We’re a little fuzzy on the exact details But we kind of know what he’s trying to do and what he’s up against.

Then, there’s not a lot more mystery. We’re just kind of seeing them do the detective work and the moving from place to place and the fighting this guy and fighting that guy that’s sort of necessary to get to that point where we’re expecting to get to. You know what I mean? It’s not a lot of like, Oh, suddenly there’s a twist and the movie goes in this brand new direction that’s suddenly piquing my interest again.

At least that’s not how I see it. Felt about the movie. So for me, I did kind of get a little bored, even though there was stuff happening, I 

Craig: think, I think I understand. I got a little bored too. It’s really odd because I’m going back and forth between saying it’s heavily plotted. It’s not heavily plotted.

I think that it really is only because it feels like you are coming into this movie. I may be getting more heady here than is necessary. Like, all of a sudden, I’m just an observer in this world, and I just kind of have to figure out what’s going on. They don’t spend a whole lot of time explaining things.

It’s just like, here it is. Here is Blade. Here is who he is. Here is this bad guy. The bad guy’s name is Deacon Frost. He’s played by Stephen Dorff. Who is Stephen Dorff? Was Stephen Dorff The main kid from Monster Squad, is that? 

Todd: Was he? Oh, I don’t know. He started out as a child actor. I don’t remember all that he was in.

Um, he’s been in a lot of things. He’s a good looking dude. He 

Craig: was in one of those sexy Aerosmith videos with Alicia Silverstone. Yeah. He’s the bad guy, but then like, he’s kind of this rogue vampire. And then there’s also the, and he’s only a half vampire. Because he wasn’t born a vampire. He was turned into a vampire.

Wait, what? Like, right. The vampire lore here is also so like, it’s not the typical vampire lore that I’m accustomed to. And they’re not just going to, they’re not going to explain the rules to you. You just have to figure it out. That that’s what I mean. Like, I hear what you’re saying. I feel like I’m just all of a sudden.

I’m all of a sudden observing this world and they’re not gonna explain it to me. I just have to figure it out 

Todd: Yeah, and to its credit, honestly, I kind of like that. You didn’t hold our hand through it, really But then there are some times where the dialogue is a little silly. By the way, he played Glenn in the gate Maybe that’s what you’re thinking of.

That is what I’m thinking of for sure. Yeah So yeah, I mean, I get what you’re saying and I do, I do agree with you there. Like I kind of said earlier, it’ll stop every now and then to give you like a big exposition dump for some backstory that you need. But like I said, very early on, we see this creepy boardroom of older vampires.

And within that one scene, we learned that all of those vampires are like purebloods and they are like the establishment. They basically control the world, unknown to all of us. They’re in every sector of society and in power. And that’s the way they like it. But then this guy is the rogue one. Who’s a half breed who comes in.

It’s like, eh, you know what you guys, your old hat. You don’t know the way the modern world works. And we’re going to do things differently. 

Clip: Our livelihood depends on our ability to blend in and our discretion. Maybe it’s time. We forgot about discretion. We should be ruling the humans, not running around making back alley treaties.

Todd: And so he’s the loose cannon. And so he’s a threat not only to the world, but he’s also a threat to the current vampire establishment and the way they want to stay hidden. 

Craig: And it’s interesting. I like the way that they went with this. They went hip and cool. Like, in the comics, this was an old man. An old man who was like struggling with his mortality and trying to find a way to live longer and and here They went with this young hip looking guy, and I don’t really know what happened to 

Todd: Stevendorf.

I haven’t seen him He’s still making movies, it’s just not big things. It’s like, probably like, made for TV stuff. 

Craig: This is one of the most commercial things that he’s done since he was a kid. He didn’t like doing commercial things, and talked about that openly. He had his reasons for doing this when I don’t remember what they were, but like, He’s this cool, sexy, young guy.

And I think that works really well because he’s challenging all of us. Old tradition, right? At the same time that he’s challenging old tradition, he’s also using tradition to challenge tradition, which I actually thought was really interesting. Like all of these old vampires on this council keep telling them that he’s a big, dumb, dumb.

For trying to do all this research into their ancient vampire texts. They’re like, it’s a, it’s a dead language. Nobody can translate that. Meanwhile, he’s got a translating program running on the computer right in front of them. It’s clearly translating it. And he’s like, okay, grandpa, whatever. And then he does translate it, but that’s what I say.

Like, there are so many things going on. There’s this ancient text. And I want to talk about the person who apparently keeps the ancient text. I don’t know what’s going on there, but they’re not keeping it very well. Let’s put it that way. But then when he translates it, it translates into like digital.

Architectural designs. Yeah, it gets a 3d model Of a place of something like it looks like a I don’t know. It’s like a big cylindrical Structure or something and there are all kinds of runes. Oh my god There’s so much going on in this movie and I know that I’m jumping way ahead and we can totally jump back But my favorite part of the movie and when I say favorite part, I mean The most ridiculous part to me is that he translates the ancient language.

It gives him computerized architectural things for this huge structure. In the end of the movie, we end up in this structure, which is an enormous, Huge. We’re talking like, I don’t know, 10, like stories tall. They didn’t construct it. He just says, you all forgot about it. 

Todd: Yes. These geniuses forgot it ever existed.

Craig: But we found it right over here. Like, what? In our city. What? What are you talking about? It is enormous. Like it is the size of a building and, and it’s pristine and just, they forgot about it. I know, right? Hilarious to me. Hilarious. 

Todd: Yeah. That bit was pretty silly. I laughed at that too. 

Craig: What is the conflict?

Frost, he’s looked down on, the council looks down on him because he’s a half breed, but they all follow these rules. Like we have a treaty with the humans. It is. You know, we can’t just run amok and do whatever we want. We have to abide by these rules. And Frost, you know, the young, rebellious one is like, you know, Why do we have to do that?

They’re literally our food. We should be able to do whatever we want. So that’s the conflict there. And then obviously Blade is trying to stop the vampires. 

Todd: In general. 

Craig: Right? 

Todd: Frost is just making it a little more imperative. Because Frost has like, for example, a nightclub that you get to through a meat locker where it’s just populated by vampires and they bring victims in and then spray blood over everybody in the crowd.

You know, that opening, that, I thought it was the opening. What? 

Craig: Sorry, I didn’t mean to like stop you in your tracks. Yeah. But I, I thought that that, that scene was really hot. And when the movie opened and I saw Tracy Lourdes. Yes. And then I saw that she was not top build, but among the top build. Yeah. I was so excited.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: She is like sexy and she’s like leading this guy into this really sexy Sexy club full of sexy people and yeah, like techno music and strobe lights and everybody’s just like grinding on each other and it’s sweaty and just really hot. Oh yeah, I was so, so excited. And then I was super bummed that she wasn’t in the movie anymore, was she?

Todd: You know what’s funny about this is that that scene is the only scene I remembered from this movie from way back And I remembered Tracy Lourdes was in it and somewhere in my mind I thought Tracy Lourdes was right there beside the big bad guy through the whole movie and it’s not it’s this other girl I wish 

Craig: she were 

Todd: Yeah, I do too, because I’m a, let’s just say I’m a Tracy Lourdes fan and leave it, leave it at that.

Craig: Listen, I, listen, I am too, honestly, and not maybe for the same reasons, but she’s very, she’s a very interesting person. Yes. Her life and her career are so interesting, and she has made for herself a legitimate acting career, and I always enjoy her. I find her really. Fun to watch on camera. I don’t know if she’s ever gonna win any awards, but she’s compelling She’s compelling and like this was just perfect for her She looks like I don’t want to say a porn star, 

Todd: but she looks like a porn star, you know Like she’s just very sexy She’s a sex pot and always has been and I don’t and on the one hand like I don’t think she’s really tried to be anything But honestly, she claims she has but every role she’s taken kind of everything that she’s done has really leaned into that So, uh, 

Craig: I loved her in that movie except Do you remember that movie that we did?

Yes, we did. She was the mother, right? She was like the conservative. Mother. Yeah. I thought she was great. That’s 

Todd: true. I guess that’s one of the few roles when, yeah, she did that. Wasn’t she also in Serial Mom? Am I wrong about that? 

Craig: I don’t remember. I’ve only seen that time. 

Todd: Oh, John Waters kind of liked her.

He had her in Cry Baby as well. That was one of her earlier mainstream roles. Yeah, that was also very disappointing for me to see her in there and I thought I was going to be seeing her as I remembered through the whole movie and no, I think she dies in that club sequence actually. I think she’s one of the last vampires to lash out a blade and he, uh, I don’t know.

Craig: Well, and that’s the thing, there are multiple This is the first of many, many scenes where Blade takes out like a hundred people. Yeah, I know! Or, or vampires. 

Todd: He starts using martial arts at first. It’s so hilarious because I even said it out loud as I was watching this scene. You know, he’s doing all these cool martial arts, he’s got his kn his blades, his knives, he’s swinging around, he’s got some thing he throws and all that stuff.

And then about three quarters of the way through, he just whips out a god and just starts mowing people down! Oh yeah, yeah. Wait, he could’ve just done that from the beginning. I guess he just likes to have a little fun. Fun first handguns, 

Craig: shotguns, machine guns. Like they’re all automatic. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Like he’ll just stand in the middle of a room with a big old machine gun and just spit around and shoot a bazillion vampires. And, and, and he’s just, you know, he’s killing vampires. They, uh, you know, they’re bad and they kill people. And 

Todd: well, he’s searching, he’s searching for the vampire that killed his mother.

That’s his motivation. Oh, he is. Yeah! I didn’t even get that! Oh yeah, yeah. No, there’s a moment where he sits down and he admits this, uh, to the woman, Karen. Karen is the hematologist. Coincidentally, he meets a hematologist. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha He almost burns to death, he tries to burn to death a guy at this club, a vampire who he’s been facing off with for a while apparently and a sort of right hand man to the big guy, Frost.

Yeah. And she ends up helping her ex boyfriend, uh, Do a, what do you call it? Autopsy on the body. And of course the body comes to life and bites her ex boyfriend and then she ends up somehow embroiled in this and Blade visits her because he heard she was involved and is kind of trying to protect her but also use her as bait to lead him to others because he knows that now that she’s sort of had an encounter with the vampire they’re going to start coming after her and so they do and that’s how they get involved.

Craig: Well and she’s been kind of maybe bit. Yeah She might be turning into a vampire or maybe or maybe not but luckily she’s a hematologist So she can like make serums and 

Todd: stuff This is a good time to start talking about Kris Kristofferson Cuz what blade does is he gets in his blade mobile and he drives into the blade cave.

His blade cave is awesome Is a, uh, big kind of, it looked like a chop shop, but I guess it’s like an abandoned warehouse somewhere. That, uh, his buddy Whistler, played by Chris Christopherson, is in. And Whistler is his Alfred. Yeah. He’s the one who apparently developed the serums. He makes all of his weapons for him.

Gives him down home spun friendly advice. 

Craig: That’s, that’s the thing, like, he’s like, Alfred, like he’s not the prim and proper Brit. He’s like a rough and tumble, you know, American, America. Yeah. Oh, he’s seen shit. He’s definitely seen shit. Played by Chris Christopherson, who, Again, Todd, we’ve talked, we’ve said this so many times, and, and so often, I think that we do these tributes for precisely this reason, that these are just people who, they’ve always been there.

Kris Kristofferson has just always been there. Been there. I’ve always seen him in movies from the time that I was a child until now. I’m not a big country music fan. I don’t hate country music, but I don’t listen to it intentionally. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s me too. 

Craig: And so learning more about him, you know, I remember him from movies.

I can’t even tell you all the movies that I remember him from. From, he always kind of plays a similar kind of character. He plays that gruff American man. He’s very much a man’s man, like a masculine kind of guy. He’s got baritone bass kind of voice. He seems like somebody who, like, as you said, has been through stuff and you can trust him to shoot straight with you.

Like, yeah, it’s like a cowboy. Yeah, exactly. He’s a good old boy and he’ll shoot you straight. Whatever that means. That guy will 

Todd: shoot you straight. I like what you did there. I like what you did there. Well, one of his earlier film roles was Convoy. You know, did you ever see Convoy? No. It’s like a 70, early seventies movie based on a hit song.

Convoy was like his radio hit about truckers and CB radio. 

Craig: Yeah. I’ve heard this song. 

Todd: Yeah. You know, it’s like a novelty song. 

Craig: Like, I’m ridin 

Todd: convoy. It is, it is not at all like this rough and tough song. Like, the chorus kicks in like, We’ve got a great big convoy, rockin through the night. We’ve got a great big convoy, ain’t it a beautiful sight.

Come on and join our convoy, ain’t nothing gonna get in our way. We’re gonna roll this truckin convoy across the USA. That 

Craig: is gonna live on the internet until the end of time. It is bright and happy. I’m gonna pull that up at your funeral.

You know what? I wouldn’t mind one bit. It’s fine. And it’s a good segue because Chris Christopherson too was a country music singer and poet. songwriter. And he had some hits of his own, but he really was more, I don’t know if it was by choice. I, you know, I, I always think that’s really interesting. There are some songwriters who start out wanting to pursue their own performing career and it doesn’t take off.

But they are able to sell their songs and their songs become very popular with other artists. And it seems like Kris Kristofferson is one of those people. And then there are singer songwriters who are happy to be songwriters and to give their songs to other people like Carole King. You know, obviously Carole King has had a A huge career on her own, but she’s also written for many, many other people.

Anyway, that’s off topic. Chris Kristofferson. But no, it’s not. I, I didn’t know until today that he wrote me and Bobby McGee. I had no idea. That’s insane. And he dated Janis Joplin and he was in The Highwaymen. I do think I knew that. And the Highwaymen was him and Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson and I can’t remember.

But this guy, like, this guy’s huge, huge in country music. I knew him as an actor. I recognize him as an actor. I’ve always liked him. Anytime he pops up, I like him. He was in a silly movie with Dolly Parton called, like, Joyful Noise. He pop, he pops up. All over the place. 

Todd: He just pops up all over the place.

Pat Garrett and Billy, the kid, a star is born, which is a remake of an earlier movie, but then that got remade into the Lady Gaga one with Bradley Cooper, which is really good movie, by the way. 

Craig: It is good. I would like to see, I would really like to see the Barbra Streisand, Kris Kristofferson one, um, but like, I, I think I’m picturing those two men in my head, like Kris Kristofferson, Bradley Cooper, and I almost feel again.

I can’t say because I haven’t seen the Kris Kristofferson one, but Bradley Cooper was giving Chris Kristofferson in that movie. So I don’t know if he was borrowing, you know, I don’t want to accuse anybody of stealing, but it’s a very Chris Kristofferson vibe and he’s the mentor in this. And honestly, like I think this was the right choice to go with for the tribute for him, but we don’t get a lot of him.

He’s just tough. He’s been through it. Fix anything. Yeah, he can fix anything. He, he recognizes the truths of the world, like things aren’t always happy ending, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But he’s also a good guy. You know, he is taken care of blades since he was a kid and he helps him out and he’s Alfred or whatever.

Clip: I had a family once, wife, two daughters, then a drifter came calling one evening. A vampire. He toyed with them first. Tried to make me decide which order they’d die in. We kill as many of them as we can find. But it’s getting worse. Because of Frost. There’s something happening in the vampire ranks. There’s something big.

And at stake by life, that son of a bitch is at the center of it. 

Craig: What was interesting to me, and again, we’re running short of time, so I’m just gonna jump around, but in the end, the bad guys find their Batcave. Frost beats the shit out of Whistler. So much so that when Blade finds him, he’s under a bloody sheet and Blade pulls it off and thinks he’s dead, but he’s not dead.

And they have a talk. There are so many talks in this movie. There are a lot of talk. I feel like we could, we could approach this movie from so many different ways because there are so many monologues that I would love for you to cut into this. There are so many hysterical monologues. Like Wesley Snipes is constantly monologuing.

It’s hilarious. I’ve 

Clip: spent my whole life looking for that thing that killed my mother. It made me what I am. And every time I take one of those monsters out, I get a little piece of that life back. So don’t you tell me about forgetting. 

Craig: And he’s also constantly talking like Shaft, like, Motherf er, are you out of your damn mind?

Todd: I have so many Wesley Snipes lines written down here that are just too great. 

Craig: And I can only imagine that I don’t know. Maybe some of them were scripted, but I, I can only imagine that many of them were adlibbed. And I won’t do any more impressions, I’m sorry. Hahaha. 

Todd: But some of them were so funny. I’ll do one of my favorites.

It’s at one point where he gets Frost familiar. This is, it’s Frost familiar who, um, tracks down Karen. And uh, Wesley Snipes has to jump in and save her, and take her back to his Batcave. But at one point when he’s beating up on him and lets him go, he says, You give Frost a message for me. Tell him it’s open season on all suckheads.

Oh my 

Craig: god, yes, yes. So many, so many. All I was gonna get to was that Whistler tells Blade, You’re gonna have to finish me off. He’s like, no, I can’t do it.

And he’s like, all right, well, give me your gun. And Blade says no. And he’s like, give me your 

Todd: gun. Give me your fucking gun. It’s like, if he curses at him, he’ll actually do it. At first, it’s a nice, polite request. And then he’s like, okay. 

Craig: Yeah. So Blade does give him his gun and he walks away and he hears a gunshot.

And then we see Whistler’s hand fall down. Now I’m watching that and I’m like, what? Hold up, I am pretty sure that Chris Kristofferson is in at least one of the sequels. And he is! He’s in both! He’s in both of the sequels! 

Todd: He comes back. I guess. He didn’t shoot himself. He let Blade think that he shot himself to free Blade from the responsibility of having to take care of him.

But I have no doubt that Kris Kristofferson is enough of a man that he reached right over to his machines. He 

Craig: picked himself up. He rebuilt himself from the 

Todd: ground up like a used 

Craig: car. I’m sure he did. Wait, hold on. Let’s, let’s talk about Pearl real quick. I, I don’t even know how it happens, but they’re like investigating things and Blade and Karen are kind of like a little duo now.

And somehow they end up at a grocery store or a restaurant. They, they follow that guy that you mentioned before. There’s this cop that’s like a familiar for the really bad guy. They follow him to like a grocery store or something or whatever. And they’re looking for this person named Pearl. It’s so heavily plotted that I don’t even remember why they’re looking, but they, they find like this vampire library, I guess, 

Todd: Oh my God.

It’s through the freezer in the kitchen of a nightclub. And I love how blade is able to go in to this busy nightclub that looks like it’s full of bad ass, by the way. One other thing I noticed about this movie is it is chock full of Asians to the point where I was like, did I miss something? Is this supposed to be Chinatown America?

I noticed that too. There’s like one scene that’s outside in a park and there are Asian people walking around left and right and there are red lanterns hanging. It looks like it’s like decorated for Chinese New Year. 

Craig: Wasn’t this the club that was populated almost exclusively by Asian businessmen and there were teenage Asian girls.

Performing? There was like a J pop group. It was like a K pop. Uh 

Todd: huh. Yeah, to the point where I turned to Liz and I said to her Oh, look, it’s the sinister Asians again. This is like, you know, the sinister Asian trope I mean this was hot though, you know back then even the Matrix has these heavily Asian influences And then of course the movie being heavily martial arts styled, I guess All right, that means we got to put Asians everywhere, but always in this sort of no Asians have any prominent roles.

Let me put 

Craig: it that way. They’re extras. This may be getting too heady too, but do you think that that influx of that style in America at this time was because of the success of things like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, like, were, were we borrowing from 

Todd: I think this being definitely a Hong Kong style martial arts movie, the action is filmed in this movie like a Hong Kong martial arts movie would be.

Wesley Snipes himself is like a black belt in one of the martial arts since he was like 12. I mean he, he heavily wanted it in here and so I guess They decided, well, then that means we need to put a bunch of Asians in here, but we’re not going to give them prominent roles. No, we’re just going to make them looming in the background or walking around, or they’re going to be in trouble.

You know, like this, this little girl that the guy holds up at one point who bless her little heart does nothing, but just sit there and watch. 

Craig: Oh my gosh. That’s wild. You’re right. Like, yeah. Like was. Were they in a predominantly nat like, were they in Chinatown? Like, that’s what 

Todd: I’m saying, like I don’t think so.

I was really looking for it, and I thought for sure that was the case, but no, like, in the outdoor scenes when it’s daylight, except for that one, no, it’s like downtown New York or Chicago, and they’ve got, you know, Jewish delis and things in the background, all kinds of stuff, so. Hmm. It was almost like I don’t want to say offensive.

I don’t know. You can be your own judge of that. But I would say that if you looked at this and said this was borderline offensive, I probably wouldn’t disagree with you. Do we know where they filmed? Yeah, they filmed in L L. A. Oh. And mostly an empty shampoo factory that was no longer being used.

Craig: Interesting. The whole thing, the only reason that is even worth mentioning, because there is another big like gunfight and big fight in the library, but not before they meet. The keeper of the documents. Like it’s all so like, it’s so dumb. It is kind of dumb. It’s this enormous like Jabba the Hutt type vampire, which I read in the trivia, like he’s so fat because he’s lazy and he only eats the hearts of children and, oh, That’s really fat.

They had initially conceptualized him being surrounded by the corpses of children. That would have been exciting. They ultimately decided that was a little too much. This scene is really, like, I like it. I don’t know. As far as recommending this movie, I don’t know. It’s all right. It’s, it’s from a very different time.

If you like superhero 

Todd: movies, sure. Yeah. Gritty superhero action oriented movies with very little. of the smarmy tongue in cheek humor that you get in them now.

Craig: Available to stream for free. So I bought it. So, so, so now I have it forever or until Fandango goes down. But it’s just this big, like Jabba the Hutt kind of fat vampire. And Karen burns it with like a UV light. Like they have all of these. You know, technology things. She’s also, as I mentioned before, developed a bad serum that when injected into a vampire makes them explode.

She just 

Todd: whips that up with equipment that she just ran by and borrowed from the hospital. I mean, she had to have gotten like two big vans to fill up with these huge pieces of equipment that she just casually writes off as, Oh, I just borrowed a few things from the hospital. 

Craig: The final act all takes place at that big, like, Shrine, which is like a silo with Enormous deities carved into the walls and blah blah blah blah blah and what what frost is trying to do is And, and, and, and blade is the key because he’s special.

His blood is special. This is an ancient prophecy. This all gets so convoluted because his blood is special and they have to use it. To. Release the Blood 

Todd: God? The Blood God! Every time they said that I was like, Oh God, please call it something else. 

Craig: And then the Blood God is like a hurricane, and everything that it touches will turn into a vampire.

And it’s gonna be like the vampire apocalypse. But then it gets even more convoluted because at one point Frost like knocks Blade out and when he wakes up this like Coffin bed opens up and his mother is in it like all of a sudden Blades mother is around 

Todd: Yeah, that was a twist. I wasn’t seeing coming, 

Craig: but it’s also not telegraphed at all.

It’s not and When that coffin bed first opened, I thought at first that it was Karen, that they had Yeah Turned her into a vampire and like sexied her up, but it wasn’t, it was his mom And it turns out that his mom did die But was, you know, came back as a vampire and has been around all this time and as it turns out Frost is the one that turned her like When when that reveal came it was so late in the movie like it was so late Yeah, and I was like, yeah, really Jesus Christ.

I know I don’t fucking care. Like how is this gonna? 

Todd: Right. They don’t care. They really don’t it’s too late in the movie to get a reveal like this because when that happens you it Feels dumb Especially when it hasn’t been telegraphed, right? Like, oh, 

Craig: come on. I also didn’t like it, and I get that this is kind of a vampire thing, but it grossed me out that there were two scenes where the mom looked like she could not wait to get Blade’s dick in her mouth.

Like, again, I get it. They’re vampires. I get it. But, like, it was nasty. 

Todd: Yeah, and her one line about how you have to To remember I’m not your mother anymore. I’m like an entirely different creature. It still did not explain away. It was gross. Yeah. But blade is the key. Yeah. And they have this ancient thing that he can fit perfectly in, you know, cause they built it thousands of years ago, apparently, but it’s, it’s size just for him.

Craig: It looks like when Han Solo was in Carbonite. He got frozen in Carbonite, 

Todd: yeah. And he’s put in there, they take his shirt off. I thought they were going to strip him down, because, you know, as I remember, Wesley Snipes shows his ass in almost every movie he’s in, but apparently not in this one. 

Craig: Before I forget, this isn’t a Wesley Snipes tribute episode, but I don’t know, who knows, maybe it will be someday.

My favorite performance of Wesley Snipes, it’s not like I’m a huge fan of his, I think he’s pretty good. Fine, whatever. Yeah. He also, of course, has had trouble in his personal life. I think he had some trouble with his taxes, a little bit of time in prison. Whatever. 

Todd: Tax issues. 

Craig: But my favorite performance of his is in To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Julie Neumar, where he plays a drag queen, and he is fantastic.

Have you seen that movie? No, I’ve never seen that. Holy shit, Todd. Drop everything and watch it today. day. It’s that good. Oh my God. Patrick Swayze, John Leguizamo, Wesley Snipes, all three straight men playing drag queens. They, they, they took that project and they went for it. Like they’re, they’re not making fun of drag queens.

They’re not making fun of gay people at all. Like they are giving really, really sincere. performances. Patrick Swayze will break your heart in that movie. He’s fantastic. Wesley Snipes is one of the best drag queens I’ve ever seen. And that’s so wild to me, because otherwise, he comes across as one of the most masculine Yeah.

men I’ve ever come across. Like, like, like this dude is a man. 

Todd: He’s a specimen. And I’ve always felt that I’ve always felt that man was just carved out of onyx. In To 

Craig: Wong Foo, he said that he emulated the women that were around him when he was a kid. And he wanted to, you know, those were strong women that he respected and he wanted to honor them.

Todd: Oh, that’s nice. Dude, 

Craig: I can’t believe you haven’t seen that movie. It is. The 

Todd: title was too long for me, so I 

Craig: But there’s okay, so in this movie there’s the big showdown at the end They’re gonna sacrifice all of these pureblood vampires to this blood God and there’s a whole thing and ceremony and like lightning comes down and strikes all of the pureblood vampires and Skeleton bats fly out of them Yeah.

Okay. All right. And then all of those skeleton bats fly into Frost, the bad guy. And now he’s not Frost anymore. He’s the blood 

Todd: god, I think. But he’s, he’s still kind of more or less Frost though. Just, just with bloodshot eyes now. Yeah. And I guess superpowers? Yeah. And superpowers. Because he can now fight people.

Blade more or less one on one. I suppose 

Craig: there were parts of this that I love now First of all I read that they were supposed to fight for just a little bit and then The blood God was supposed to just turn into a giant sea of blood that would yes overpower the entire city and everybody would turn into vampires 

Todd: the scene was shot and Rendered in everything and it was shown to test audiences and they hated it, right?

Did you watch it? No, no. I pulled it up on YouTube and you would laugh, you would fall out of your chair laughing at it. It’s a good thing they changed it. The CGI is so bad and the bit, it’s just corny as hell. 

Craig: Well, I will watch it, I’m interested, I just didn’t have time, but what, instead they just allowed the two actors to sword fight, I don’t know, they had to reshoot it, whatever, I don’t know.

It’s a good call. I think it was a good call. Yeah, yeah, and it’s a great, it’s very good, it’s a good sword fight. And it seems very equally balanced for Most of the first half of it, but then it almost appears like Frost or the blood God whoever he is now had just been toying with blade for a while Mm hmm.

There’s a point where it paused like the the fight pauses and Frost says My turn. And I, the second he said that, I’m like, that is from the Lost Boys. This is a tribute to the Lost Boys because it’s the exact, when David and Michael are fighting at the end and, and Michael kind of gets like, he’s pushing David toward, I don’t remember.

But one of them says, My turn. 

Todd: Oh, God. What I liked is, It becomes a bit more cat and mouse, Because at one point, They do leave the middle of that thing. And he kind of chases him around. And I remember him, Like, has to beat up a couple bad guys in his way, And he yells, Frost! And then he comes into the other room, And beats up a couple other bad guys, And when he’s done with that, he goes, Frost!

Craig: That 

Todd: was, that was hilarious. 

Craig: That’s what I’m, when I say I don’t think it’s aged that well, there are parts like that that I’m like, oh boy, like rolling my, like wowza, like, come on. And okay, so they fight and eventually Frost doesn’t know about the serum that if injected into a vampire first turns them into a garbage pail kid.

And then makes them explode. And those effects, like, I don’t care, I don’t mind watching them. They’re not bad. They’re, they’re actually funny. It’s, well, it’s funny to me. Yeah, it’s comical in a way. It’s funny to me that in 98 or whenever this came out, we thought, oh, look at what they’re doing there. That’s new and different and something that you couldn’t do easily with practical effects.

Hurrah! Today, it looks silly. It’s silly. And stupid and comical. It looks like they’re intentionally trying to be funny and maybe they were, I don’t know, but it looks stupid, but Frost doesn’t know about those. He just thinks that it’s Blade’s serum that he takes to make him not need to drink blood. So in their final battle, when it totally looks like Frost is going to win because he’s got these great superpowers or whatever, Blade manages to get his vials back and he shoots them all.

He ninja kicks one of them into Frost. 

Todd: Yeah. After he says his best catchphrase of the movie. 

Clip: Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate a bill. 

Craig: Oh my God. Yeah. And I read that like Wesley’s knife just said that at some point. 

Todd: Well, it kind of. It’s not, I mean, it’s just, it’s so weird. It’s such a weird line that it doesn’t seem like a team of writers really, you know, poured over it for days.

I I’ll just say that, but it’s iconic. It’s one of the few lines from this movie that everybody remembers. 

Craig: I don’t know. I mean, that’s it like, and then he and Karen, you know, Walk out and he’s like, she’s like, well, I can still give you that serum that will turn you into a human. That was something that they had talked about before.

Like if I can give you a serum and you’re just fully human, then they can’t use your blood to resurrect this thing or whatever. But they didn’t do it. But she’s like, I can still do it. And he’s like, no, there’s still a war going on and, uh, I gotta fight it and, uh, I need you to help me. Cut to Moscow. Cut to Moscow where he just fights a Russian vampire in the snow, which is hilarious, I guess.

Todd: It’s badass hilarious. At 

Craig: one point in time that they filmed it, that Russian vampire was supposed to be Whistler. Oh. But they brought Whistler back for the sequels, which I don’t remember at all. Uh, the movie’s alright. It’s okay. Like, there are really great, if you enjoy, like, Matrix style, Charlie’s Angels style, mid 90s, like, ninja fights?

Yeah. Sure. I think you’ll like this. Yeah, it’s fun. The, the fights are very, they’re, they’re well choreographed. It’s a lot of fun. 

Todd: They’re in those, they’re also in like those 90s environments that we love so much. Like there’s a room that’s more or less full of glass. Oh my God. The minute they walk in there, you know, okay, this is going to be a fight scene.

Craig: It’s not just full of glass. It is a room. I don’t even remember where this was. It was the house, like it was somebody’s house or something. And there were just all of these walls that water was Flowing down all the time. Yeah, and I it’s so funny. Like when I was a kid, I would see something like that I’m like, oh my god, that’s so cool.

I would want to live there and then as an adult I’m like, ew gross like it would smell like a f king pool in there all the time Everything would be all like wet and mildewy 

Todd: it’d be just like It was 

Craig: a cool set piece though. And there’s cool stuff to look at. Like, I just, I feel like I don’t know, even the superhero movies today and this may be to their credit, or there may be to their discredit.

Like I feel like they have more to say. Yeah. This is just more of an action piece. It’s a little bit funny in some places. It’s too long. The original cut was like two and a half hours long. They cut it down a lot. They entirely reshot the ending. So this is actually the result of heavy editing. It’s not bad.

I wouldn’t turn you away from it. I wouldn’t give it an enthusiasm. Recommendation. You could skip it too and not really be missing a whole lot, but it’s all right. Chris Kristofferson was just a cool guy. I, you know, I don’t know if this is his best thing. 

Todd: I’m sure it’s not his swan song. Yeah. No, 

Craig: I’ve seen him in other things where he’s been more endearing.

Like, oh yeah, he dies in that Dolly Parton movie and that’ll maybe make you shed a tear.

But he really did that. like a cool guy and I don’t want to get numb to this. You know, we, we’ve done this so many times now when we’ve talked about people who aren’t with us anymore. And I don’t want to get numb to it because my intent and I believe that your intent in doing it too really is to pay tribute to these people who gave us a lot of entertainment and joy in our lives and who though we don’t know them personally, we feel their loss.

And, and we just want to acknowledge it. We want to say, thank you, you know, for entertaining us for so long and, and for your contribution. And I mean that genuinely. 

Todd: And even though he was a sort of a secondary character in this movie, he is a leading man in many others. And he has been, he has won awards.

He’s been recognized as a pioneer in the country music industry. He’s been credited with. of um, setting a new direction for country music back in the 70s. I think they call it Outlaw Country. And an incredible writer. I was kind of shocked when I read about his early life because this guy grew up much like I did.

He had a dad in the Air Force just like I did and he just moved from place to place. But finally when he went to university, he went to university for writing. He graduated. at the top of his class. He went, got a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford. Yeah, 

Craig: yeah, smart, smart guy. 

Todd: Summa Cum Laude from Oxford and wrote pieces early in his studies that were like published in the Atlantic and won awards.

I mean, this guy, you know, there’s a couple other people that we have attributed who are the same way. It’s like we know him for one thing, but we forget that there’s a lot more that he has done that has certainly been recognized. It just wasn’t in our, our orbit. You know? The writing, the songwriting, the songs that we’ve enjoyed by other musicians that we didn’t know that he wrote.

All of this stuff, like, kind of a, did a little bit of everything, and yet, not out there bragging about it. Just doing his thing. Just kind of like the characters in his movies, just a guy Who’s really good at some shit and doing his thing and knows what he’s about and really good at it. Cool guy. Maybe in that way, it was a bit of a fitting tribute to do this one.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. Rest in peace. Good job. You will be missed. Well, thank you guys so much for listening to this podcast. We really hope you enjoyed it. Let us know what you think of Blade. If you think it stood the test of time. You Your favorite memories of Kris Kristofferson, all you need to do is find us online at any one of our places where you can chat back with us.

That would be our social media sites on Facebook, Twitter, on Instagram, and on our website ChainsawWhore. com. Just Google 2000 Chainsaw Podcast, you can find us there. Our Patreon page is Patreon. com slash Chainsaw Podcast. And join the crew back there for as little as five bucks a month. You can get lots of mini sodes.

Boy, we did a lot of mini sodes last month. We’re planning on doing more here as we come into the holiday season, giving lots of goodies to our patrons. So if you’re interested in any of that, get on over there and join the family. We have a lot of fun behind the scenes. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig.

With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we fielded a longstanding request from several of you, and brought on board one of those lucky listeners, Neal, to discuss in-depth a clever meta-horror pseudo-documentary that neither Craig nor Todd had seen before. But oh boy, did we enjoy this one! Full of fun cameos and clever takes on the slasher genre conventions, it twisted and turned in places we both expected and didn’t expect at all – with a killer ending to boot! Enjoy, folks!

Episode 414, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: And today we are joined by a very special guest, one of our long time listeners and patrons, Neil. Neil, say hi to the people. Hey, how you doing? You’ve done a podcast, and do you have one going now, or…? 

Neal: I don’t currently have one, so a number of years ago, I started a podcast with some of my best friends called “My Favorite F Words: Football, Fights, and Films”.

So we would talk about college football and the NFL, we’d talk about the UFC and boxing, and then we’d talk about the latest movies that were out. And, uh, this kind of brings me back to the movie part of that podcast. And, uh, we did it for a long time, but COVID kind of took us out of that game. And, actually, the friend who turned me on to this podcast, uh, he might recognize his name. Gilly, he’s one of your early patrons. 

Clip: Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Neal: He’s the one that told me about your podcast, uh, at work. And I’ve been listening to you guys for a long, long time because of that. I don’t know, I’m rambling now, but it’s been a great experience and I got a little bit of experience talking on the podcast, so.

Craig: I feel like we were at a little bit of an advantage during COVID because we had already been doing it this way. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it’s been doing it remotely for so long that it really, it was no different for us. 

Todd: We just had a little more time. 

Craig: We had a lot of time on our hands. So 

Todd: we’ve got a few episodes ahead that year.

I remember. 

Craig: But cool. No, we’re really glad to have you. You’ve, uh, like, like Todd said, you’ve been around messaging us for a while. When we started taking voice messages, you were one of the first one who jumped in and we really appreciate it. We always appreciate the support. So we’re glad to have you from the first time you called in.

I said, this guy’s got a voice for the radio. This guy, this guy should, should do a podcast. So we’re really glad to have you. 

Todd: And I 

Craig: appreciate that. 

Todd: And so he has, do you also, do you also have a radio background? I’m curious now. 

Neal: I did some student media work when I was at Virginia tech in the mid 2000s. I started a student media organization because there wasn’t enough room to work for the student paper and ended up.

doing some video work, mostly video work. So I got credential to work in the sports department, got down on the field to shoot football games and interview coaches and players and stuff, got to go to a couple of bowl games, went to the NCAA tournament, interviewed some of the Yankees when they came down to play an exhibition game against our baseball team.

So I had a little bit of experience in front of and behind the camera. 

Todd: That’s fantastic. Fellow journalist, huh? Just like me. There you go. I started, I did journalism in school as well. Yeah. Wow. 

Neal: But all good. All good. We can stay on task. 

Todd: Well, the task today I’m really enjoying because you recommended when you called us on Speakpipe, This movie that I believe you had requested before and we’ve gotten this request from a couple other listeners as well Their names are not in front of me behind the mask the rise of leslie vernon You know when you guys first brought it up I had not heard of this at all and then I kind of looked into it But I didn’t really look into it Like I didn’t go to the imdb and really research it.

I just kind of googled it and it came up And this was years ago. I thought okay. This is some quirky little Odd independent feature that probably, you know, was shot on video and released a video and, and whatever. And so, you know, maybe we’ll come around to it. Maybe we’ll check it out. You know, it sounds like a mockumentary kind of thing.

It could be fun. And then, uh, your recent message. Made us, uh, take another look at it and, uh, then I look, I was like, Oh my God, this movie has a bit of a better pedigree than I originally gave it credit for, which I found unusual because I hadn’t heard of it before. So I’d never seen this before. Like I said, I, it just completely was off my radar, this 2006 movie.

And, uh, here we are talking about this movie almost 20 years later, that feels like it could have been shot, I think, like yesterday. And it has some stars in it. Some people we know. So wow. What a treat this was just to watch it. Thank you. Thank you for recommending it. I’m just going to throw that out there.

I’m so glad 

Neal: you enjoyed it. Craig, what did you think about 

Craig: it? Well, it’s, this is weird. I hadn’t seen it, but the reason that I hadn’t seen it was because. I was mistaking it for something else. For some reason, I was thinking of Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer. I don’t know why that’s, yeah, that’s, I was thinking that’s what this was.

And at some point I had started watching that movie and I didn’t really get into it. And so every time I would hear of Behind the Mask, I’d be like, and I’m not really interested. So when I put it on, I was like, am I wa, this doesn’t seem familiar. Am I watching the right movie? I, I had totally mistaken it for something else.

Gosh, I don’t know. I didn’t love it, but I totally get why people like it and there are so many. Actually, maybe one of the issues that I kind of have with it, it’s a tip of the hat to Super Horror fans, but I wonder like if you’re not a super hardcore fan like us. If you would get it at all, like I thought it was really clever and funny and I loved all the little you know callbacks to different movies and stuff, but I thought if I didn’t get that like if I didn’t If I wasn’t in on that joke, I might just think it was kind of stupid

Really? I could, 

Todd: well, I think I’ve talked about that. When we did Cabin in the Woods where I showed it to my dad and he hated it. He was like, I think this movie’s dumb and it’s really stupid and it’s just mean spirited and stuff. And then I realized, yeah, he doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get any of this stuff.

’cause he doesn’t know the language, you know, he doesn’t know all these conventions. And this whole movie is nothing but poking fun at conventions. So I could see, yeah, I could totally see why this, why, why this probably would go over the heads of people who had not, were not familiar with all those. What about you, Neil?

How did you first come across this one? 

Neal: So I came across it probably a year or two after it came out. So it was still somewhat fresh and semi new. The whole meta horror thing had not been as pervasive in the space as it is now. So I thought it was really interesting. At the time, I was in a relationship with someone who was a theater major and was very into movies like Waiting for Guffman, Best in Show, all the Christopher Guest movies, the mockumentary style movies like that.

Love them. And, and it felt very much like a horror version of Waiting for Guffman. 

Clip: Yeah. 

Neal: And so I was very interested in, in the setup of it, and again, I am a Horror fan, you know, so seeing, you know, they started off and they’re talking about a world where Jason Voorhees is real. Freddy Krueger is real. You see Kane Hodder walking into Nancy’s house on elm street at the very beginning of the movie and you’re like, wait a second.

Like so for me, this is like the first experience that i’m sure people now get watching marvel movies where they’re like, oh, I recognize that. Oh, yeah, you know, so that was my experience with it at first and you’re right It didn’t get I think it came out the same weekend as Dead Silence, the ventriloquist movie, 

Todd: uh, 

Neal: horror movie.

Todd: James Wan, right. 

Neal: Back in 2007. And so, I don’t think that there was anything really competing with it. But, you know, it didn’t make any money, it didn’t, it was a first go out for the director and most of the people in the cast. So I can see why it didn’t make a splash, but I was really disappointed that it didn’t get picked up somewhere else when streaming came out and got another run at it.

Clip: Yeah. 

Neal: Yeah. Well, and I don’t 

Craig: want you or the listener to get me wrong. I really liked it. I thought it was really clever. I loved the structure of it and, and thought that it was something that I don’t recall ever having seen something like this before, where they’re just taking this ridiculous idea of filming a documentary about a wannabe serial killer and like following him through that process.

I don’t recall ever seeing anything like that, but that was really clever. And then I thought that it was really clever when it switched. In the last, I don’t know, third or so to basically a more traditional Slasher. I just, I think that, gosh, I don’t know, just like a casual horror fan, just, I feel like they might not be in on the joke.

I very much was in on the joke, and I thought it was hilarious. 

Clip: Um, but 

Craig: I could see how somebody coming at it, not from that perspective. Background might see Leslie Vernon in his killer costume with that mask, which I love, and I hope that we’ll talk about at length. But there are certain images that I think are meant to be funny.

I just don’t know if a more general audience would be in on the joke, but I myself really enjoyed it, thought it was hilarious, really clever, really well written and obviously made by. people who know horror and who are fans of horror. There’s a lot of fan service and I’m here for it. Absolutely. 

Todd: I totally agree.

You know, it’s interesting because I felt like I thought the movie took a turn, and we’ll talk about that in a second, but I was really surprised. It started out, and I was like, oh, this is cute. Oh, this is clever. This is interesting, but I’m wondering how far can they possibly take this? Because, you know, the conceit is that there is a, and this, I don’t know if I’m, if I should be confused by this, or if I’m thinking too hard about it, but, you know, this is a world where Jason and Freddie, We’re real life events, and so these people at, you know, these things actually happen, they actually exist, and they just talk about them casually.

And they make it almost sound like all this happened in a, down the street from each other. And this woman, Taylor, who’s, again, this is totally documentary style. Who’s on the camera talking about this says and now we get to Leslie Vernon a 24 years ago a boy who was murdered by being thrown over a waterfall And so then when we see Leslie Vernon on camera I’m like is this a supernaturally resurrected Leslie Vernon and we’re just going with that or is that a mythology that was constructed that Now, you know, is his cover for doing all these murders in this way?

Like, how did you guys take it? 

Neal: I was, it was weird to me because when she starts off talking about how these murders took place and were real and so on and so forth, and then she’s going to interview this guy who claims to be the, the person who was thrown off the cliff, you know, as a boy. I had the same, a similar, You know, what is this?

Is this supernatural, or is he truly coming back? And if he is a wannabe serial killer, what is she doing interviewing him instead of calling the cops? But then, I thought I told you my background is in student media, and It’s you see in the super it says university news so You know college students aren’t very bright anyway when they’re just trying to get started You know, so I could see myself being a very very amateur journalist doing a lot of the same things that she was doing Including the really wooden stand up.

Clip: He knows this he says because he himself is the heir apparent to that throne of terror so long held by the likes of Voorhees, Myers, and Kruger. This man’s name is Leslie Vernon. Alright, we

got it. Good job, Taylor. Did that sound forced? I, I, too much like Diane Sawyer, uh, I’m trying to find my own voice. No, it’s 

Neal: tight. And that really kind of set me in for the movie. It’s like, okay, it’s not going to be like this. It’s going to be more of a real thing. But with Leslie himself, I really like that actor.

I don’t know. He set me at ease right at the beginning. So I kind of didn’t question it a lot and just wanted to go with it. 

Todd: Nathan Basile. Basil? I don’t know how you pronounce it. 

Craig: Yeah, he had done some TV. This was his first film, I think. And I really liked him too, but going back to, you know, what is the backstory, you know, is it supernatural?

Is he back from the dead? Well, no. What it comes This is why I think the movie is so smart. What it comes down to is, no, it’s none of those things. Because that’s not really his backstory. It’s just a backstory that he adopted. 

Todd: He’s cop. Okay. And, 

Craig: you know, he says this. I don’t know exactly what he says. He says lots of kind of philosophical things about the nature of these killers or whatever, but the backstory doesn’t really matter.

You just have to have it. And it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, as you know, as long as people hear it. And so then that makes me think, okay, well, we’re living in a world where the people just talk casually about Freddie and Jason and Chucky and all of these other killers in this world. and maybe the movie is positive, I don’t know.

All of these guys might not be who we thought they were. 

Neal: You know what I’m saying? Exactly, I had heard some folks on other media around this movie talking about how hearing that Chucky was real kind of threw them off and I was thinking, well if you really pay attention to this movie, a lot of it is the work arounds to make it seem supernatural when it’s not.

You know the, the, The cardio line is one of my favorites in the movie. 

Clip: You have no idea how much cardio I have to do. It’s ridiculous. Why so much? Well, you ought to be able to run like a freaking gazelle without getting winded. Plus, there’s that whole thing of Making it look like you’re walking. And everybody else is running their asses off.

Oh, right. And I gotta stay with them. 

Craig: Yeah, that was 

Clip: that was hilarious. 

Craig: I mean, it’s such a great conceit, you know, this documentary thing of the buildup, like obviously in these horror movies, these things just happen. You, you expect them, you basically know what’s going to happen. This movie comments on the formulaic nature of it and how they’re all basically the same.

And it does it in a really funny and. Intelligent way. Gosh, but just walking you through step. You don’t think about Jason planning for days ahead. For this event. Yeah. You know, it’s meant to appear spontaneous and the suggestion that it’s not, I just think is really clever. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. 

Neal: Like what? What’s Jason doing on Saturday the 14th?

Todd: right? , right? Or Thursday, the twelfth’s. Thursday the 12th. Yeah. So 

Craig: that’s a big day for him. 

Todd: Wednesday the 11th. Yeah. He’s gotta set everything up and he’s gotta set it up to these like conventions that. All the people like him know, like all the serial killers know, this is what you have to do. In a way, it’s, it’s almost pretty modern, it’s like a YouTube tutorial, you know, you have these guys who think they know everything who get on YouTube and say, Alright guys, you want to like invest in the stock market, this is, I’m going to walk you step by step through how you do it.

Or, you want to do X or you want to do Y, like, this is the way, this is the way it’s done. done, you know, it’s, it’s sort of like they have this community that has just also agreed that this is the most efficient and effective way to do it. You know, you got to have the backstory. You got to plant that backstory in their head somewhere at some point, whether you fake a newspaper article like he does and lays it casually on top of some books at the library.

So she’s sure to discover it, you know, and, and then of course, you know, you need to have that. They don’t call it the final girl. What do they say? They say the Survivor girl? Survivor 

Neal: girl. 

Todd: Survivor girl. And I 

Neal: thought that was a clever way to do it because in this world, if it’s real, they’re not talking about final girls in the context of the last one left in a movie.

Clip: Yeah. They’re 

Neal: thinking of it as the person who makes it out alive from these real life events. 

Craig: That is clever. I didn’t Think about that. 

Todd: So we got to have the survivor girl. And then, you know, eventually this, this journalist goes and they visit one of his friends and they’re all talking about it. Like, you know, they’re chatting about sports or, you know, whatever.

Oh, you, you were sure to do that, right? Oh yeah. I remember back in 72 and like this happened with that guy and yada, yada, yada. It’s so funny and it just builds and builds. And in that way, The movie never got boring for me, because I didn’t feel like this conceit was getting played out, you know? I felt like it was just getting a new layer added, a new layer added, a new layer added.

And to go back to what you were saying earlier, Neil, starting to say, about the journalist being kind of naive. At one point, you know, you realize this girl’s in over her head, and I could see it coming, you know? I thought, okay, wait a minute. This movie is either going to go one of two ways, right? It’s going to keep the joke going and it’s just going to be a funny movie.

Or it’s going to start to get deadly serious. And what does that do? How does that going to change the tone? And how do you accommodate for these people going along with him on this killing spree? And that’s the direction they go. And they go at it full force to the point where there’s a scene in there where It almost seems like the girl real either realizes for the first time or at least as she’s been putting it to the back of her mind, but she’s forced to confront for the first time the idea that they’re going to accompany him as he executes this plan that he’s been talking about for the last 30 minutes, and he’s been walking them through.

And now she’s got this moral dilemma. And then I was thinking, Okay, this movies really get interesting now. And for me, a little uncomfortable. Well, 

Neal: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s that moment where the crew meets, I guess I’m trying to jump it around, they meet Doc Holleran. 

Todd: Oh, Doc Holleran, yeah. 

Neal: Yeah, played by Robert Englund from Nightmare uh, Freddy Krueger.

What? 

Todd: That was crazy. Ha ha 

Neal: ha ha ha. And after they meet him, Leslie corners him outside, or meets him outside, and was like, Hey, I told I told you, don’t go talk to my survivor girl. And he gets real sinister at that point, you know, like he He kind of flips the switch for just a minute And violent not just sinister very violent.

Yeah, like very menacing And they’re like, oh this guy is actually serious He’s not just some wacko that you know Just follows serial killers and wants to be like them like this guy is actually dangerous And I think that the movie needed that to hammer home the point like this is this is going to take a turn at some Point and we really need to not get too attached to the fun side of leslie vernon You 

Craig: Yeah, but I think for me that is the most compelling part of this movie is that I liked him 

Clip: Yeah 

Craig: Guys, spoiler alert.

He kind of dies at the end. Maybe question mark. We can talk about it later But in that moment like in his death scene, I was sad Yeah, I didn’t like I was like, oh I mean, he’s basically a nice guy. 

Todd: Well, that’s kind of the brilliance of this. And I, I went back and I read, I don’t know if you guys found this interview that, uh, Nathan Basil.

Did the guy who played him back in 2013 what he mentions here He said that he had a totally different take on the character than any of the other actors who came out there He said that the way that it was written on page and the way everybody had read it This guy was just like a big mean evil guy who every now and then said some funny things and he said that you know He came in really pretty strong with the director and was like look no, man I want to take it this way and he had this affable Take on it that we see in the movie.

And I think that is kind of the key to what makes this movie work. I think. Because you, you immediately, you’re almost on his side, and you, you take him more seriously because of it, because he has an actual ethos, kind of behind what he’s doing, that disturbingly is totally not unlike the ethos of serial killers, terrorists, you know, people who are, you know.

actually out in the world doing things. He specifically calls out, like, the Unabomber. 

Craig: Sure, sure, but, eh, crazy people like that, but also just anybody with ambition who doesn’t care who they leave in their wake. Right. You know what I’m saying? Like, that could be anybody. That could be business people, politicians, you know, people who are ravaging others.

It’s true. For their own personal gain. Ambition. I don’t know, maybe that, maybe that’s too, yeah. 

Todd: Well, no, I mean, I agree with you. That’s, that’s part of it. But like, I think the other part of it that I thought was so compelling was that this guy really feels like he’s like, he’s like doing God’s work, 

Clip: right?

Every culture, every civilization from the dawn of man has had its monsters. For good to be pitied against evil, you have to have evil. Don’t you? 

Neal: And then later in the very last interactions between Leslie and the crew, before things kind of take their, their final turn, 

Clip: I made a choice. I made a choice to provide a counterbalance to all those things that we hold good and pure.

You chose journalism. Okay. 

Todd: That was hilarious. I laughed so hard at that line. I literally laughed out loud. And I don’t laugh out loud at much, but I laughed out loud at that line so hard. 

Neal: It was delivered so earnestly too. I looked at his background. He’s from, he trained at Juilliard. 

Clip: Yeah. 

Neal: So he brought a lot of really unique aspects to this character and the portrayal.

Right? It doesn’t It tracks completely that he would do a completely different take on the presentation for this character, including the character of Leslie, the slasher, the monster, um, barefoot was his idea was Nathan basil’s idea. They never had a barefoot slasher killer before, and they thought that it would make him seem even more kind of otherworldly or feral.

Um, Yeah, feral, that’s a great word. Yeah. If, if he was thrown over a cliff as a boy, the whole aesthetic of the Leslie Vernon slasher Kind of brings that up. He’s wearing overalls, the mask. We can talk about the mask. It’s very childlike on the director’s commentary. I think that they call that version the boy he’s Leslie when he’s regular Nathan out there talking with Taylor and stuff, but when he goes into his killer mode, they call that the boy.

Todd: Yeah. And it’s kind of, it’s, it’s, it’s a little bit reminiscent of Jason when, when at the end of the first Friday, the 13th, when he comes out of the, you know, he’s kind of got that extended forehead and. He’s a little deformed. You know what I’m talking about? That was, that was something I thought of when I saw that, that mask.

Craig: Yeah, I don’t know, like, it just felt very kind of amorphous, like, almost like it was made out of, like, Play Doh or something. Yeah. What, I don’t know, I don’t, you probably know. Kind of Uncanny Valley. Yeah, a little bit of a porcelain Elvador Dali melting clocks kind of look to it. 

Neal: But because it was great.

Oh, I’m sorry. 

Craig: I just, yeah, I was just going to say, I thought that the look was great and I totally 100 percent agree with you that that is an excellent show of talent in that when he is in the mask, he’s different. And not even just in the mask. There’s a moment later where, you know, somebody takes his mask off while he’s still in killer mode, but very different, but at the same time, I totally bought it.

Like I, I believe this guy is a character. I believed him when he was talking to the crew outside and was like, look, you guys. Can go or you can stay, but I’ve got to do my thing. And this is going to end up one way or another for me, either way. And he communicated with them on that level, but then when they made the decision to stay, okay, well now I’m Leslie Vernon, the killer.

So sorry. Gosh, I don’t want to get too deep into it, but like the duality of his character. I totally bought. And I thought he did a great job portraying it. 

Todd: I also don’t want to get too deep, but in a way, I felt like I could relate to it a little bit. Not that I want to go out and kill anybody, but like, all of us who are horror fans at some stage of our lives or another are questioning, Why are we into this stuff?

There’s almost sort of a duality. I feel like there’s this odd duality to my personality that I can’t quite reconcile. Like, people who meet me, people who know me, have known me for years or whatever, like, obviously they know I’m into horror, but, and, but it just, it seems very incongruous to them that this guy who, you know, wouldn’t hurt a fly is really into this dark stuff, dark music, all that kind of stuff.

And I don’t show it on my face, you know, I don’t go out wearing the t shirts, you know, and we’ve talked about it on the podcast too. What is horror? Why do we like horror? Why? Do perfectly normal and sane people enjoy watching this terrible stuff. And then we also have a lot of movies that, that mind that, right?

Like funny games and that are constantly challenging us. Like, why do you watch this stuff and considered entertainment? And in a way, I feel like in this movie, Leslie Vernon is sort of the embodiment of that, except he’s the extreme. He’s not into horror. He’s into killing people. Otherwise he thinks this is just, this is my job.

You know, this is life, this is, uh, required to restore the balance, and, and I take it very seriously, and also, you know, ha ha ha, we can joke, and I, we can be laughable, and I, and, and you like me as well. It’s very uncomfortable, in a way. 

Neal: Mm hmm, totally. Totally. 

Todd: You know, that’s really what the movie is up to that point, is just this continuous gag of him walking them through his preparation.

As though we were watching, you know, following Jason. And Jason was just like, okay, well, here’s where I halfway break the board so that when she runs up the stairs, she’s going to fall into this one. That’s going to slow her down. And, you know, this is what I do here. And this is how I make them discover my backstory that is.

Lots of fun. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he it’s gosh, I mean, he is, we know from the beginning that he is the killer, but he’s also kind of at the same time, the Randy from screen, like he’s the one who’s walking you through step by step the things that we already know, you know, like any one of us. Could have walked you through the steps.

I mean, there were things that I had never thought of before. Like, I don’t know. I guess the final girl grabbing a big, long, hard weapon. Okay, sure. All right, fine. Yeah. And then I don’t even. I wrote it down, but I’m not going to scan through my notes to find it like the opposite of phallic, like, like vaginal.

Yeah, there you go. Like you have to have that imagery to like the, the final girl has to go through that. You know, like she has to be reborn as this new strong person. Okay. Like I don’t know that I’ve ever thought about it that closely, but the way that he lays out the formula is accurate. And I thought it was great, but what I was really kind of more interested in, in that part, aside from the fact that he was very charismatic and I was a big fan of his was the documentary side of it, which you guys have kind of hinted at a little bit, but I’m really interested to hear specifically you guys perspective because this Taylor girl.

It’s her. She’s the one in front of the camera. And then she’s got like three guys behind her and you barely see them at all until the last third, when they get in front of the camera, but she’s played by Angela Goethals. Did you guys recognize her from anything? Home Alone, perhaps? Ha ha ha 

Neal: ha ha! Yeah, that was, that was great.

She has an interesting look, and I was like, I’ve seen this girl somewhere before, and it wasn’t until I knew immediately who it 

Todd: was. This looks like an older, not even an older version of her. Like, just somebody, like, blew her face up and made her, like, into a 

Craig: twenty something. In, in, in my house, like, Alan and, uh, My sister and I too, because my sister and I grew up watching it.

We will say to each other at least a couple of times a year. You know what the French say? Les incompetants.

So that was a little distracting. However, I loved the concept of them filming this documentary, but Todd, I feel like you and I briefly talked about it when we talked about creep 400 episodes ago, 

Todd: um, literally 

Craig: how like, okay. So, so you get into this and you’re a journalist and by nature of being a journalist, you are meant to be an observer.

You are not meant to be. An active participant, right? I’m a little confused because she knew this guy wanted to be like the next Jason or Freddy or whatever. So she knew his ultimate objective was to kill people. At what point was she no longer going to participate in that? Because it seemed like it caught her by surprise 

Todd: near the end.

I don’t know, how do you interpret that? I think I said it earlier, the way I interpreted it was, it was probably always an uncomfortable question that she was constantly pushing to the back of her, of her head, and not really willing to face until that moment came, just because, you know, she’s a little naive.

But I don’t know, Neil? 

Neal: Yeah, I thought she was going at it from the perspective of, he’s obviously not somebody that came back from the dead. He’s interested in these real life killers and stuff, and he claims to be the next in line for their legacy. But, he can’t be serious if he’s calling me to showcase this stuff, so let’s see what he, what he says.

Insight he can provide on this and maybe We’re doing some good in that we can learn some things that almost like profiling I guess, you know Here’s a look inside the mind of a person who would want to do these kind of things and if we can bring that to Light maybe we can help save some lives or something.

That’s that’s the best I can square it in my head But at the same time time, like I said, she’s A college journalist with her college journalist buddies, and I’ve done some really dumb Look on location shoots and yeah trying to trying to do more than I’ve got any business and experience trying to do So, yeah, that’s the best I can square it.

So 

Todd: you’re thinking she didn’t ultimately think he was going to actually start to go through with it. 

Neal: Yeah, I thought she was waiting for the twist too. Like, okay, he’s telling me all of this stuff, but he can’t possibly be serious. 

Craig: He seems like a really nice guy. Right. 

Neal: Yeah, he’s disarming in that way. And she just gets Sucked into his all his field.

Clip: Yeah, 

Craig: I can’t imagine 

Neal: they like him too. 

Craig: Yeah, I can imagine getting sucked in Ultimately, it’s not really just her like she has a three man crew. So Yes, he’s a strong guy, but she’s not by herself. So there’s not that physical threat and he just so is so Endearing and I thought that that also extended When he basically took her home to meet his parents.

They’re not his parents. They’re just You This older couple that he knows, but it’s like his mentor. Yeah. Yeah. Is that Eugene? Is that what his name 

Neal: is 

Craig: supposed to be? And, okay guys, I’m sure you read this. It’s no surprise to you. If this is true that he was supposed to be Billy from Black Christmas, I’m not sure why they didn’t call that out.

They called everything out. 

Neal: Yeah, they wrote it as that. And then they thought that that would probably be a bridge, a bridge too far, so they didn’t. They, they allude to it, but they don’t confirm it. It’s, it’s just funny to me that that’s a bridge too far, like. 

Clip: Right? 

Neal: Okay. I don’t know, maybe there’s, maybe there was some intellectual property that they could Yeah, that could, yeah.

I don’t know. Sure, sure. Maybe, yeah. I thought that Scott Wilson character, Eugene, really. Helped add another layer and grounds the movie and makes it feel like yeah, this actually could it helps flesh out the universe 

Clip: Yeah, oh gosh, 

Neal: it lends credence to These things happening. Yeah, they talk about Freddy.

They talk about Jason, but here’s a guy who also Participated in that world of, of killing, made it out, and he is living a life afterwards. And his wife, Jamie, 

Todd: apparently 

Neal: was his survivor girl. Okay, I wasn’t sure. Oh 

Craig: really? I didn’t catch that. I thought that was alluded to, like I thought that at some point some, they had some kind of quip about chasing, like, well you finally caught me, or something like that.

Neal: Yeah, Taylor asks, how do you survive an encounter with you guys? And he says, you know, You, you pick a spot as far away as you can and you run towards it and you don’t stop running until you see daylight. And Jamie kind of. Elbows him in the ribs and it’s like, I was pretty fast, wasn’t I? And, and he was like, yeah, and you caught me or some, or one of them says, yeah, you caught me.

So it kind of implies that she was, uh, 

Todd: being chased by him at some point. I love that. Over my head completely. 

Craig: I, I, I kinda caught it. I thought that that’s what it must be because she, she doesn’t seem a lot younger than him, but she seems a little bit and she’s very beautiful. Gosh. Yes. Yeah. She’s she’s gorgeous.

But before that, before he says something about picking a spot and running, they’re both giving advice and her advice is don’t hang out with virgins.

I thought that was so funny. And like, if, if you’re hanging out with the Virgin, get some. Somebody in her pants or get out of there. 

Neal: That’s just good life advice. 

Craig: Oh my gosh. And there were tons. Uh, seriously, if, if, if you are a fan of horror at all, really, you really should watch this movie because it’s a really, really clever horror comedy.

And I’m not trying to wrap up cause there’s still a million things. I want to talk about the first one that comes to mind. I’m sorry, Neil. This is me rambling again. It’s been the only thing that’s been on my mind since we started talking. And I insist that I get it out that Zelda Rubinstein is in this movie.

So great. 

Todd: Her last movie before she died. What a 

Craig: treasure. 

Neal: She’s great. Like, she instantly, she nails her part. Her job is to communicate the lore, to help bring the survivor girl into the world that Leslie is trying to create. And she does it beautifully. It’s the first time we see Leslie in the mask.

Holloran appears and has any kind of meaningful interaction. It’s just that there’s so much that happens within that scene. It’s great. 

Craig: And it’s set up so well, like we know how it’s going to be set up because Leslie explains it to us, like, I’m going to plant this and then she’s going to find it. And then she’s going to talk to the librarian and the librarian is going to tell her the story, but then she’s going to say, Oh, don’t worry.

It’s just a story. And, and then that’s exactly what happens. with Zelda Rubenstein. Gosh, like I, I remember hearing when she passed away, but it’s been a long time ago. It was probably before we started the podcast. Otherwise we definitely would have done a tribute. Uh, I just, she is so funny to me. And of course I love her in the poltergeist movies.

She was in like, 16 candles to, I think, oh, Teen Witch. Don’t want to forget Teen Witch. Teen Witch. But also here, like, she’s just being Zelda Rubenstein. Like, she’s being Tangina from Poltergeist. And that was a huge highlight for me. She gives you everything you 

Neal: want from an appearance from her. 

Craig: Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. Except, I feel like I blinked and I missed when he killed her. Did he cut her 

Neal: throat? So, the cut, the editing is weird there. It, it almost feels like maybe she might have fainted. I don’t know. Yeah, I wasn’t sure. Because there was no consequence after that. Like, if you think, if they killed the librarian, there’d be, like, that’s where Taylor and her crew would be like, Oh wait, this is real.

Craig: And Kelly seems fine after it, like it’s, 

Neal: she gets over it really quick. The whole universe didn’t seem to mourn the loss of Zelda very 

Clip: much. 

Neal: And I think her name in the movie was Miss Collinwood, which is the castle from Dark Shadows. Like, I’m telling you, like, real deep horror trivia. They, the writers of this inserted stuff all over the place that were not I 

Craig: caught only a few of them.

I caught when there were some girls in, like, baptismal gowns doing jump rope in the 

Neal: back. I’m glad you saw that in the background 

Craig: of the, uh, college 

Neal: scene. 

Todd: Right at the beginning. 

Craig: I noticed that. I mean, the ones in the very beginning are, you know, Like, they call them out. Like, they specifically show you the house on Elm Street.

They specifically show you Haddonfield. They specif It’s not like it’s clever, but there are things There are other ones that I read about that I definitely didn’t see. Like, I guess in Eugene’s house on a table, there’s a lament configuration from Hellraiser. Certainly did not see that. 

Neal: Yep, it looks like a tissue box sitting on the, uh, table.

Craig: Were 

Neal: there, 

Craig: were there 

Neal: others 

Craig: that, cause I love that 

Neal: stuff. Yeah the turtles are named Zoe and Chance. Sorry, Zoe and Church, which are the pets from Pet Sematary 1 and 2. Right, 

Clip: right, 

Neal: right. Yeah, so there’s stuff like that just sprinkled throughout. Doc Halloran is named after Dick Halloran from 

Clip: The Shining.

Oh yeah, right. 

Neal: When Leslie’s putting on his makeup, the flame retardant makeup. Where they show that scene he’s sitting in front of the mirror, and he’s talking to Taylor about it. He makes a face that is an homage to Donald Sutherland in Invasion of the Body Snatchers. 

Clip: Oh, 

Neal: I didn’t guess that one. 

Clip: Yeah, yeah, 

Neal: he makes the same face that he make that Donald Sutherland makes when he points and he’s, you know, revealed himself as a pod person.

So there’s there’s stuff throughout that just if if you’re looking for it, or if you’re like me and just a complete weirdo about it, you seek those out and catch them. So I’m glad some of that stuff actually, like, Still came across like the kids, the nightmare kids doing the jump rope in the background.

Oh, I loved 

Craig: it. I, I loved that. And, and for the most part, I mean, again, points to make sure we talk about, we may as well do it now. You mentioned Doc Halloran played by Robert England, like, yes. How, I don’t know. I didn’t do enough research on like, how did this director get. All of these icons, you’ve got Freddy Krueger, you’ve got Jason Voorhees, you’ve got Tangina.

I know Tangine is not as big a get but like, seriously, Robert England. I kind of wish that they had done more with him. I thought it was hilarious what they did. I thought that it was hilarious that they made him a Dr. Loomis clone. 

Clip: You know where he is, don’t you? He’s not who you think he is. What’s he calling himself now?

Leslie Vernon? How perfect. I, I, I don’t know. I don’t know who that is. His name is Leslie Mancuso. From Reno, Nevada. You have no idea who you’re dealing 

Craig: with. That was great. I wish he would maybe have been a little bit more in it, but still he’s behind the scenes. I loved that. 

Neal: Yeah, he’s the ahab That was such a great Convention that they played on there, right?

You know every serial killer needs somebody to come after him It legitimizes their work and it it really kind of adds another layer to it But uh, so there’s a great behind the scenes interview with robert englund where he talks about the How he came across this script and he says, you know, when you’ve been in the business as long as I have, you get sent scripts all the time.

Some of them are good. Some of them are not so good. And I was watching, I was reading this one in the middle of the evening, got late night TV on my wife is cooking dinner or whatever. And next thing you know, it’s two o’clock in the morning. I’m still reading it and I couldn’t put it down. So he, he loved the script and it’s because of him that they got Scott Wilson.

And so, Uh, the Eugene character, uh, he called him up and said, you’ve got to come and do this. You’d be perfect for it. And Wilson, same deal. He, he thinks that they should have turned this into a play and done this on the road. 

Todd: Oh, it’s interesting. 

Craig: Well, it’s, it’s definitely, I don’t know if I could see it on stage, especially the last act, which we haven’t really talked a lot about, but I, the first part, especially I could see how it could be a play because it feels very much like a character study.

It feels a lot like creep. Frankly, except for instead of just one guy with a camera following a weirdo around. It’s a crew of people following a weirdo around and endearing weirdo. But, but then the third act I thought was. I thought that that was exactly, you know, he, it played out exactly as he said it would.

Mostly are we to believe that Leslie knew that Taylor was the final girl from the beginning? Cause if so, that’s pretty impressive, I guess. 

Neal: Yeah, I think, I think from the very beginning he knew, he knew all of it was going to play out exactly that way, including Taylor. Her crew having the change of heart and trying to help save the kids instead of participate in the event.

I 

Craig: hope that you’re right and I believe that you are because I think that that’s the most interesting way to take the story. And again, I know I’ve already mentioned it, but going back to that conversation where they have shown I think a little bit of reluctance and he says to them, look, you guys should leave.

I’ve got to do what I got to do. Like, I, I feel like he gives them an out. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, he kind of gives each one of them like a farewell. Yeah. He’s kind of very intentional about it. 

Craig: Well, and I, and I think that that that’s fair. Like they know who he is. They know what he’s going to do. And if they try to interfere.

And I think that he was a good, a good bro for giving him a heads up. He, he, 

Neal: he wished them luck and then one of the cameramen says, you too.

Todd: And then like a boss, Taylor jumps in the room with him and they’re, and I mean, I’m just sitting here thinking, how are they going to stay out of the way while he does this? I was just so into the movie at this point because it, I did not expect it to go this far and it started to get really disturbing because now this team is here going to ostensibly, well, are they going to tape these murders, you know, how are they going to cut it into their documentary?

Like, these are some real actual moral dilemmas here that they’re going on. And so they’re in the room next door while like two of the people from downstairs or upstairs screwing in the bedroom. Um, And he goes in and hack, hack, hack, and you hear it all happen off screen. Taylor’s obviously disturbed and the guy, I think one of the guys turns to her and goes, Oh shit, this is really happening.

Should I be getting any of this?

Oh my God. 

Neal: Yeah. Good job, cameraman. I don’t know if that was Doug or Todd, 

Todd: but, 

Neal: uh, 

Todd: I appreciated that there was still some levity to this, but it was getting pretty serious and I was disturbed and I was really into it. And now I’m thinking, okay, are they going to be in danger if they try to interfere? What happens if they pop their cameras in and then it startles one of the other people and turns them onto Leslie?

Leslie gets angry and then turns on them. You know, there’s just so many different ways this could go. And one of the things that the film does, which I think is really, really smart, is it switches. Suddenly, when it becomes about the journalists and everything, we’re in movie mode. There’s like documentary mode, where everything’s through the camera, and the cameramen are behind, and it looks, you know, shot on video, and the whole nine yards, and shaky cam.

But then, there are a couple moments. First, early on, there are just a couple of them. But as soon as we’ve had this switch and when it’s about the journalist, now the movie looks like a slasher movie. It’s lit like a slasher movie. It, the cinematography is like a slasher movie. And now we’re watching 

Craig: it.

Let me jump in just really quick with an example. My favorite example of that was when they were showing that archway outdoors, it was the opposite of phallic imagery, like the outdoor that she had to walk. Okay. Yeah. So, so when they. Film it through the documentary. Of course, it’s very beautiful. It’s a beautiful set piece.

But then later when it’s not the documentary anymore in the film, the lighting, it looks like pet cemetery or something like, so yes, I think that’s very, very clever filmmaking that I mentioned earlier, the structure, but just the difference between the documentary feel and then the film. feel of the end.

Todd: It upped the production value of this movie tremendously. Like up to those moments, you know, it just sort of seemed like this was another found footage type movie shot on a low budget. But then when it gets into the movie thing, it looks, it looks just as slick as any slasher movie from the nineties or early 2000s.

It looks just like it. And so I thought it gave the movie a lot of cred too. You know what I mean? 

Neal: I think so. I, I, I totally get that. The use of two. Cameramen to document what was happening was also kind of a really good cheater convention, I guess. They said that one of the cameramen would intentionally shoot kind of dutch style with the the angles and stuff and the other one Would shoot more straight on so you could get alternate angles based on which cameraman was shooting it But then you also It didn’t just feel like a single cam the whole way through, like you could get those cuts in between from different perspectives of the same action that you would get from a normal movie, but then it would look much better when they cut to that cinematic version of the film.

And there’s no score on the documentary parts, but anytime they do, like Leslie, Talking through a hypothetical scenario. Those parts would have a score to it when they did the opening scene 

Clip: With 

Neal: the girl throwing the trash away in the dumpster that part has some music laid over it So it really kind of helps get you.

All right here. We’re watching the movie here. We’re watching the documentary here. We’re watching the movie 

Todd: Yeah, it was I didn’t really score, but you’re right. I mean it was definitely there. Yeah, you’re right 

Neal: Yeah for a first time director, I think they they really got the most out of their money for this 

Todd: I think so, too.

I was super I 

Neal: do too

Craig: This happens all the time, but like, uh, I watch a movie and I’m like, I’m not really exactly sure how I feel about it. And then I sit down and talk about it. And here I am an hour later. I’m like, no, it’s great. You should watch it.

It’s great. There’s so much going on. There’s so many good things about it, but I agree with you. I’m not, I don’t know. I didn’t hear of it either. And I usually have. My eye on the industry, I feel like I kind of have my finger on the pulse. What I, what I have heard is, you know, in the years since it’s come out, it definitely has a following.

Like there are people out there who are big fans of this movie and are like, watch this movie. And I only didn’t because I mistook it. But also I knew when it was over. Okay. So there’s a setup for the ending. It all ends with a cider press, 

Todd: an apple cider press. We knew that was coming and 

Craig: the final girl and the bad guy with his head in the cider press.

But again, like that was an emotional scene for me. Like it was just a closeup on his face. Face, what does he say? He says something I’m, so 

Neal: glad you were the one or something or I just knew you were going to be the one 

Craig: You 

Neal: guys it’s a love story

They have so many Tight, emotional, like, fleeting moments where you’re like, Oh, these two are into each other. And then, and then it, And then the things move. 

Todd: But, I’ve got a question for you guys on this, on this last bit. Like, do you think that was part of his preparation too? That he wouldn’t actually be killed by the Cider Press?

Or was he killed by the Cider Press? The way I interpret it, because he points out this, Oh yeah, I’ve got big plans for the Cider Press at the end. And assuming everything went according to his plan, She kills him in the Cider Press, Or thinks she kills him in the Cider Press, Because later during the And then burns him up, burns up Oh, burns up the Yeah, and then sets fire to everything, right?

Which is classic. So Then, as you said earlier, Craig, there’s a post credits scene where his body is pulled out and the guy who’s getting ready to do the autopsy or whatever, prep the body, his back is turned to him, and just as the credits are about to end, you see him sit up, which we all saw coming, it follows the convention, but it makes me think that maybe, again, all of the stuff that he’s been doing has been to follow convention, so I wondered if, too, he had prepared himself to fake his death and resurrect himself again.

Did you guys think that at all? 

Neal: I did, and it was because of him mentioning, when he was putting on the makeup, that it was a mixture of Preparation H and his own homemade fire retardant. 

Craig: Yes! Right! 

Neal: So he knew that he was going to get burnt up at some point. And so he had planned for that and then This is not in the movie.

This is something I saw later But either the director or one of the producers posted on tiktok or something how? Leslie faked his death. 

Clip: Oh while 

Neal: he’s how while he’s in the cider press it cuts to a Underneath the cider press, his hand reaches under and grabs a nutcracker and cracks a walnut at the same time that Taylor spins the thing.

So, she doesn’t go back to check. The original intent was the mask would shatter under the weight of the thing, pressing on him. But they, this little clip, it’s like a 15 second clip, but it shows, you know, him Getting his head put into the cider press her twisting twisting and then it cuts to this shot of his hand reaching under Grabbing this walnut cracker and then she does the final spin and you hear the crunch and then it cuts away Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 

Craig: Man That’s funny 

Clip: Oh, 

Craig: it is really clever.

I was just under the impression. Cause he says at one point, this night’s going to end one of three ways. Like either I’m going to be on the run or I’m going to be on death row or I’m going to be dead or something like that. So I think that he was prepared for. He knew that he might be bested. And I felt like in that moment at the end, he was like, well, if this is the way that it was going to happen, I’m glad it was you like, it’s even though, you know, it’s, it’s still, even for him, a satisfying ending now, whether or not he planned it or whether or not he knew that he would rise again, I mean, he probably thought he might cause they always do, or maybe, maybe they always have a nutcracker or Something that fakes their death.

I don’t know, but 

Neal: I was gonna say I heard that they had actually shot a different ending where Taylor is on Trial for the events that happened on that night. 

Clip: Oh 

Neal: Uh, because, you know, she’s the only one, she’s the primary survivor. Somebody had to do all of these murders and stuff, so she’s on, on trial, but they, they ended up not keeping it because they didn’t have enough people.

They wanted the courtroom to really feel full and stuff, but the way they had shot it was that Taylor’s on trial. They’ve got a live feed of the coroner’s office, the feed that we see. And Doc Halloran bursts in and it’s like, you guys don’t know what you’re doing. He’s planned this the whole time. This is what he wants.

He needs an audience. He needs an audience. And that’s when you see him sit up 

Clip: Take out 

Neal: the coroner and then swipe the camera and then that’s how the movie ends That would have been kind of glad they didn’t go with that It’s I mean, it’s cool, but i’m glad they didn’t go with that. I think that you can actually see a plot Like, two seconds of that, in one of the trailers, you see Robert Englund yelling, He needs an audience!

Clip: Um, 

Neal: it’s in one, one trailer that’s still floating around out there. But they said they didn’t keep it because they couldn’t have enough people to make the courtroom look believable. If he’s terrorized this whole town, you, you would probably want. Or if somebody has terrorized this whole town and is using the town’s legend as a backdrop for committing a bunch of murders, you’d think that the courtroom would be fully 

Todd: packed up.

I mean, the reason I think it would be cool is because I was kind of waiting for the Doc Hallorann character to come back in and do something at the end, you know, kind of like in Halloween, you know, where he walks out. Michael Myers’s body is suddenly not there. You know, I thought there would be some moment anyway for him to kind of have a last thing instead of well, he’s alive and he kind of limps away and then that’s the last you see of him.

Craig: His whole role is very much a cameo. He has maybe, what, one or two lines. I don’t know. Still happy 

Neal: to see him. Still fun. Yeah, and he’s why I made the suggestion, because he just got his star on the Walk of Fame. 

Todd: That’s right! Yeah. Well deserved. Very well deserved, that star. What 

Neal: did you think of the use of, uh, Psycho Killer over the final credits?

Clip: I 

Neal: loved it. What a perfect 

Clip: song. 

Neal: I have had that in my head. All week because of this, I can’t stop playing it and humming it. Well, the 

Todd: movie sets itself up for a sequel and supposedly they, they did write script, but what I read, and I don’t remember how long ago this was, um, the director just kind of reevaluated and said, look, if we were to shoot this, a sequel to this, obviously we want the right script and the sequel script that we already wrote.

It’s too dated. by now because I don’t know, it’s kind of like more going to be referencing the torture porn era and the found footage and stuff like that. And that’s so far behind us now that I think they were like, that would, that would feel too dated if we did that now. Thankfully, the slasher thing is not still not dated, right?

Like that seems like pretty evergreen. So this movie, like I said, it feels like it could have been shot yesterday. And the reason why I like and I recommend it is because I do get a little tired of the meta horror movies. Just because I get it now, you know, like how many ways can you tell me the same things?

You know, how many ways can you rattle off the conventions to me and then ha ha I see that you subvert them Or something like that This movie just does it in a totally different way I’ve never seen and in a way that you know from that perspective of us being behind the the killer in this very mundane Sort of way And also him being so affable and all that and the layers that we’ve just kind of brought up in in here I just Thought this movie was so clever and so fun.

I was just with it the whole time and I loved it and I can’t believe I hadn’t seen it and I can’t believe that the reason I hadn’t seen it is not popular. People don’t know about it. What the hell? How do people not know about this movie? So my recommendation is you guys are listening to this podcast.

You’re as big a horror fan as we are. You are going to be the people who are going to eat this up and it’s going to be a very different kind of metal horror than you’ve seen before. You got to give it a try and you got to go out and watch it. It’s great. 

Neal: Yep. You can find it on YouTube. The whole movie streaming.

Todd: That’s where we watch it. Yeah, good quality. We’re all about free. 

Neal: Good quality. Perfect quality. Even the the gratuitous boob shot in there is intact. 

Craig: I’m so glad you brought it up. It was on my list. I think he just crossed off the page. 

Neal: I want to make sure that that got mentioned because I don’t want anybody to be caught off guard.

Craig: Oh god and the like it comments on itself like oh my god isn’t that a little gratuitous as she’s popping her nipples out.

Oh, so good. So good. Good job. Good job. No, I’m, 

Neal: I’m so You should, 

Craig: you should host a 

Neal: podcast. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Maybe I’ll bring one back at some point. You know, I’m happy to come on and chat with you guys at any time. If you got other movies and you just feel you want to break things up a little bit.

Feel free, give me a call. I will Oh 

Craig: man, it was a great time. It’s been a pleasure having you on 

Neal: the show. Thank you guys so much, and thank you for all the years of great content. Thank you for doing my suggestions. You guys got me with Once Bitten, and Anna and the Apocalypse, and this is probably the third or fourth suggestion that I’ve gotten.

given you guys, that you guys have done. So I can’t say enough how much I appreciate it. 

Todd: Wow. That’s true. Neil’s been feeding the fire more than I remember.

Craig: I remember, I, I remember how excited Todd and I were about Anna and the Apocalypse, like neither of us We’re like, holy 

Neal: shit! 

Craig: Why have 

Todd: we not heard this one before? 

Neal: It’s like Christmas movie, horror movie, musical. Come on now, how has this not been done before? 

Todd: You’re our research wing. Oh 

Neal: I will, I’ll shoot you guys whatever I can think of that would be a fun watch and a fun conversation.

Todd: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Neil. And thank you all your listeners out there for joining us for yet another week. We really appreciate each and every one of you. If you want to leave us a message like Neil did, all you’ve got to do is go to our website, ChainsawHorror. com And there’s a little link at the top that says talk to us.

You can leave us a quick message. You don’t have to download any special software or anything like that. And, uh, and that’ll shoot right to us. And we, we listen to those. We respond to those. We love hearing from you in whatever form that takes. You can also leave us a message on any one of our places. Uh, just two guys in a chainsaw podcast.

We’ll take you to our website where there’s a comment section. We’ll take you to our Facebook page where we post stuff up on Instagram. Also, our Patreon, patreon. com slash, uh, Chainsaw Podcast. If you go there, you will also have a chance to get behind the scenes like Neil has himself and become part of the crew.

Chat, chat back there, uh, vote on the requests that we have coming up. A lot of good stuff going on behind the scenes. Please consider supporting us back there as well. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. And I’m Neil. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw

Halloween 2024 is at hand! No better film for this week than this family-friendly Netflix release. It’s dumb and corny and predictable, but the SFX are fantastic, it’s adequately scary-yet-kid-friendly, and just chock-full of Halloween fun.

New kid moves into a new town and unleashes ancient magic from an artifact she found in the attic of her historic house. Sound familiar? Despite an under-utilized cast of stars, groan-worthy cliches and flat jokes, there’s some easygoing magic at work here that will appeal to kids and adults alike who can handle the surprisingly scary Halloween decorations that come to life as fodder for Marlon Wayans’ chainsaw.

The Curse of Bridge Hollow (2022)

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Happy Halloween! 

Craig: It’s your Halloween voice again. Happy Halloween to you. 

Todd: It’s more of a slogan than a voice. It only says those words. 

Craig: Next year. Next year you can monologue or something. I don’t know. Yeah, it’s exciting.

Honestly, like, I love Christmas. Don’t get me wrong, and we’ll totally celebrate Christmas too, but I think that I feel more about Halloween the way most people feel about Christmas. Like, it’s my favorite. Holiday. I just love everything about it. Same here. And I love that my neighbors across the street have like a whole geta like they’ve got like a, a graveyard set up and they’ve got skeletons walking skeleton dogs and they’ve The Nightmare Before Christmas projection on their house.

Todd: Oh nice. You do live in a neighborhood and a town, really, that, that still hasn’t, you know, still put some effort into, you know, decorating the house, I assume, you know, you get some trick or treaters here and there, but I think the last Halloween I had there, I maybe had three. Five groups of trick or treaters come to the door all night long, and I was super depressed.

Craig: Yeah, trick or treating is not as much a thing anymore. I think that some Gen Xers, you know, are still trying to hang on to it for their kids, but it’s mostly, it’s mostly trunk or treats, which is nice, but it’s not the same. 

Todd: You know, I’m double irritated at the trunk or treat. Number one, it’s lame compared to the real deal.

And number two, it’s sort of born out of this false narrative that trick or treating is dangerous. I 

Craig: know, I know. We talk about this all the time. We are so precious about kids these days. And I get it, I get it. You gotta make sure your kids are safe. But we managed to survive somehow. Anyway, whatever. Yeah.

I love Halloween. Yes. And you’re right, in, in my town, first of all, my neighborhood is very residential. My house especially is on a street that’s like an interior street. Like, there’s no reason for you to be on my street unless you live on it. 

Todd: Yeah, so get off my lawn.

Craig: I just mean practically. Right, I know what 

Todd: you 

Craig: mean. Hahaha. So there’s, there’s very little traffic and, and my neighborhood is, uh, You know, middle class families and yeah, people are still really into it. The people across the street from me have the best display. Most people just put out a lot of inflatables.

I like the spirit of inflatables, but 

Todd: it’s lazy. It feels lazy. 

Craig: I like, I appreciate the spirit, folks. I really, really do. Well, 

Todd: and I suppose people appreciate the saving of, uh, space, you know? 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: My god. I, I, seriously, there used to be so much of my garage devoted just to Halloween decorations that were sitting there for most of the year.

Craig: I know, and we don’t do it at all because, for that exact reason, we just don’t have the space to store the stuff. Ugh, unfortunate. But anyway. Yeah, so I’m glad that we are doing, I don’t remember exactly how it worked out that we ended up doing this for the Halloween 

Todd: episode. I put it down that way because this felt like it would probably be the most Halloween of the movies that we did this month, and uh, I kind of think it is.

Craig: Yeah, me too. And that’s the thing that I love the most about it. So the movie that we’re doing is 2022’s The Curse of Bridge Hollow. It’s a Netflix original, and that’s where I watched it. Alan and I watched it last year, because we had never seen it before. And I had heard good things about it. And we both liked it.

I remember liking it a lot. And it’s so Halloween y, like, that’s my favorite thing about it. Like this is a movie about Halloween and everything in it is about Halloween. And it’s, it’s fun. It’s not the best movie I’ve ever seen. I don’t love it as much as I love The Worst Witch. 

Clip: I mean, it’s no The Worst Witch.

You’re 

Todd: not going to gush over this like you did The Worst Witch. Well, first of all, there’s no music in this one. You don’t have any songs to sing to us. That’s going to be the saddest part of this. 

Craig: That’s really not all that sad. I listened back to that and, oh boy, that was something. You guys 

Todd: were done dirty by the delay, you know, there’s the natural delay between the two of you, but you, you would have been singing in sweet, sweet harmony, like chorus girls and boys.

I know. 

Craig: I know. 

Todd: Otherwise, just like you did when you were children. 

Craig: I actually really like a lot of things about this movie. It’s a fun story. The thing that kind of perplexes me is I’m not exactly sure who the target audience, because. It feels very much coded for children. Yes. But I think that many average children who are not like you and me might get really scared.

Like, and the effects are so good. And I’m not saying they’re brilliant, but they’re so good that I think that they might be really scary for kids. Like, this stuff looks real. 

Todd: Yeah, and that was one thing that, you know, I’m always watching movies like this thinking, Oh, would this be something I could watch with my son?

No. Not yet. Not yet. I don’t think so. He’s seven and he’s a little touchy about these things. He definitely couldn’t see this yet. And that was what I was thinking. I was like, you know, for what I was imagining to be and what, you know, Otherwise, sort of felt like a, oh, light hearted, breezy, lower budget movie with a very cookie cutter type script and whatnot to throw out at Halloween time like you would throw together one of these Hallmark Lifetime Christmas movies, you know?

There was a lot of care put into it. In the special effects department. It’s actually really, really good. I mean, it’s Hollywood blockbuster style, good special effects. Even when the mix of practical and the computer generated, it’s seamless. And the computer generated doesn’t look cheap at all. To the point where you can’t even tell sometimes when You’re what you’re looking at his computer generator, whether it’s practical I just think it’s that well done and that more than anything else about this movie really blew me away I was like gosh.

This is a nice movie to watch it. It looks good. It does the effects are great There’s nothing distracting in there, you know in that regard. I thought it was a fun ride 

Craig: There’s always something going on. Like it’s just scene after scene after scene with new things happening. And it’s a very simple conceit that we’ll get to in just a second.

But you said you wouldn’t show it to your seven year old son. I wouldn’t show it to my 16 year old nephew. He is, he doesn’t like scary stuff in general, but he’s particularly freaked out by zombies and there are zombies in this movie and they are Straight out of a grown up horror movie like yeah, they don’t pull any punches as I guess is what I’m saying Yeah, when it comes to the scary stuff, and there’s definitely silly stuff too But when it comes to the scary stuff, they don’t pull any punches and they go hard.

There’s there’s really scary zombies and really scary clowns 

Todd: Yeah, evil clowns with real axes and machetes, swinging them around, uh, doing damage to, you know, the set. I was surprised at how scary those, those things were. And everything in here glows with red eyes. And, I don’t know, you know, a skeleton is ten times more scary when it’s got red eyes burning at you.

So, yeah, it’s like they just amped everything up. And then I thought the final villain as well, all of it looked very spooky. In that regard It was cool that they didn’t pull any punches in that department. That being said, nobody dies in this movie. And you know it’s gonna be a movie like that, right? 

Craig: Oh, sure.

Sure. 

Todd: And I love the idea that the way they kept it so PG. I think it’s technically TV 14. But same difference, really. The way they kept it that way is, almost all of the monsters in this movie are actually Halloween decorations come to life. Ha ha ha! Right! Which is a really super smart way of avoiding gore!

Right! When they knock these things down, or they chop their heads off, or they hack them in two, or one particularly interesting chainsaw scene. You know, it’s just stuffing that’s coming out of them, or, you know. Bits of cardboard and wood. They just 

Craig: break, right? Yeah, they just 

Todd: break and they fall to the ground.

And so, on the one hand, you know, it’s like, the danger is real. On the other hand, in the back of my mind, I keep going, but they’re still just animated decorations. These aren’t actual zombies from hell, which happens at one point when a character gets bit by one of them and he starts freaking out like, 

Clip: I’ll tell you what happened here!

One of these zombies just bit me! Huh? Oh, God. Does that mean I’m gonna turn into one of them? Is that how this works? You can’t let me turn. You gotta shoot me. Blow my head off, man. What? No, I’m not gonna shoot you. I don’t wanna turn into a zombie! You’re not gonna turn into a zombie! Zombies are fictional creations, okay?

Dead bodies don’t have functioning nervous systems, which means they can’t move. Basic biology. I didn’t understand a single word you just said. Maybe I should handcuff myself to the porch just in case, huh? Or You can get a tetanus shot. Yeah, good call Bill Nye the Science Guy. 

Todd: Burn. So it even provided a little bit of comedy, you know, as well.

Craig: There’s, there’s lots of comedy. It is a comedy. I don’t know, I didn’t find it hilarious, but it was funny. The basic story is Howard, played by Marlon Wayans, one of the very famous and very funny Wayans brothers, and his wife Emily, Kelly Rowland, The Kelly Rowland. The Kelly Rowland, yeah. Destiny’s Child. Of Destiny’s Child and Freddy vs.

Jason. She’s a fine actress. She’s fine. She’s fine. I actually felt bad for her because this, well, and they have a daughter, Sydney, who’s played by Priya Ferguson, who, the only other thing that I’ve seen her in is is Stranger Things, but she came on like in the second or third season of that show playing one of the main character’s younger sisters, and just like steals the show in every scene she’s in.

Oh yeah? She is hilarious. So funny. Both she, but even more so Kelly Rowland, I felt kind of bad like they weren’t really given much to do. Right. Kelly Rowland is Confined to that baking sale for 

Todd: the whole movie. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: she, it’s a very, OneNote, thematically, her character is like very OneNote and very absent from almost all of the action really.

Craig: They’re all kind of OneNote to be honest. Like the writing isn’t amazing. I just like, I do like the story, but the way that the characters are written is, is kind of one note. Like the dad is a science teacher and he’s obsessed with science. And he hates Halloween and he hates anything, like, I don’t know, like, supernatural or whatever because it’s not scientific and you can’t prove it and it’s dumb.

Todd: And they hammer this home so hard because it’s So hard. The movie leaves you with the impression that this man views everything in his life through the lens of, Can I make this into a science lesson? It’s tiresome. I mean, you’re very kind when you say the writing is, What is, what was the word you used? I don’t know.

Not, it’s okay and not bad? I don’t know, you might have said that. I think the writing’s terrible. I mean, it’s not terrible. The dialogue. The dialogue is dumb. That’s my point. It’s so cookie cutter. It’s almost like what would have come out of a script writing class. Like, here are the beats you need. Here are the elements you need.

And then these are the most cliche ways that you can put those beats and elements together. So let’s just. Do that. There are jokes, but I don’t think there’s any, any much new. No. To the jokes. You can see them coming from a mile away. Some of them are even a little cringey. Groaners. I don’t know. It’s just not hip, edgy in the slightest.

There’s nothing edgy about this movie. 

Craig: You’re right. Like I, I, and I want to agree with you and I feel like I’m falling into a trap and that I’m going to start talking bad about this movie. I, I think that honestly, that really wasn’t. of my mind because didn’t really care. Like I was willing to overlook that because it was so fun to watch.

Gotcha. Yeah. So, you know, honestly, like I was paying attention to what was happening and I was listening to the words they were saying, but that’s not what I was there for. I hear you. The stuff that I was there for. paid off. Like I was really satisfied. They moved to this new town. I mean, it’s, we open on the shining shot of their car driving through a forest and it’s fun.

You know, they’re singing hit the road, Jack, which is like thematic throughout the whole. And the parents are nerdy and goofy and the daughter’s annoyed and eye rolly, and they’re moving to this new town and she’s mad because they’re making her move to a small town, but they are moving out of the city, like the same setup that we have seen for 8, 000 movies.

Yeah. 

Todd: Nothing new here. No, 

Craig: it’s God. But they, they, they, they cross a covered bridge into their new town of bridge hollow. Which is, Americana, like, New England in the fall, rich white people. 

Todd: Isn’t this the same backlot set that they use for like, Back to the Future, and something wicked this way comes? If it isn’t, it is.

It looks like it. 

Craig: I mean, especially like the town square. Yeah, that’s what I mean. 

Todd: Cute little old town. Everybody’s busy and boisterous and very Halloween. That’s the thing about this movie that I, and I liked this too. 

Craig: And I’m in like from this scene when they first drive in and they’re just driving down the street and they see that every single house has a Extensive and ridiculous Halloween display like oh, yeah, I’m I’m on board.

Yeah

Todd: It was pretty cool and of course like all of them look like they were put together by Hollywood special effects artists Yes, that amazing not a blow up item to be seen. No, not a single inflatable 

Craig: Not one and they look great and their next door neighbor has a yard full of zombies and he’s funny There’s lots of funny people in this like Sully.

Yeah, Rob Riggle. He’s been in a lot of stuff. He’s a funny guy He’s not in this very much. No, but he’s pretty good when he’s in it. He’s he’s 

Todd: iconic. 

Craig: He’s 

Todd: funny He’s again, but also I mean he is that stereotypical Character right the good old boy Easygoing, slappy on the back, former military dude who can’t wait to shoot his guns, drinks beer.

We’ve seen this a million times. 

Craig: I know, and see now, I know, now that we’re talking about it, now I’m really thinking about it, and like, the cracks are showing, like, It’s, it’s, it’s too bad that That I had to point these out to you? Well, no, I feel like you already alluded to it, but it’s so cliché and it’s just like, just throwing in every cliché of these kinds of movies, like here you’ve got the kind of eccentric But they don’t really do anything with them, really.

It’s at some point the daughter, the dad still is like the, the neighbor wants to like loan him decorations. Like we’re all really excited about Halloween. And the dad’s like, uh, yeah, no thanks. Like, So you got a theme? 

Clip: No. You like werewolves? Not particularly. Cause I got a whole shed full of werewolves.

That’s real wolf fur. I don’t even know if it’s legal. And I don’t care cause it’s Halloween. Oh, no thanks. We’re good. Really? We don’t decorate. Jehovah’s Witness. No, I just think it’s kind of silly. What? I mean, do you still believe in Santa Claus? Why, what have you heard? Is he okay? 

Craig: He’s just such a stick in the mud and it goes on for so long.

Like, bro, like, calm down. 

Todd: He doesn’t even feel like a real person at that point. Nobody is that bad of a stick in the mud, you know? 

Craig: Right. Like, okay. So you don’t really care for Halloween. That’s fine. You are new in the neighborhood. They move into a enormous mansion. Also typical. It’s not like a Gothic mansion, but it is an enormous mansion.

Oh, it’s, 

Todd: it’s 

Craig: bigger than the Amityville house. It’s got huge. And on the inside, you know, like it’s, it’s just stunning. Like woodwork everywhere. Like a huge, like foyer, like, Oh my God, it’s so ridiculous. But seriously, you, you move into a neighborhood and your neighbors are friendly and greet you and say, we are super enthusiastic about Halloween.

You’re like, yeah, I don’t really care about Halloween. They’re like, well, that’s all right. We’ll help you. I have lots of really cool decorations that I’ll loan you. No. Like, do you not even want to, like, make a good impression on your new neighbors? 

Todd: Backing away like he can’t get away fast enough when his wife swings by, doesn’t even introduce her, they just kind of go in and, and then the neighbor just kind of chuckles and walks away.

I mean, I would be offended if I were him. Me too! It’s like, what’s wrong 

Craig: with you, buddy? So there’s that guy, and we don’t get enough of him, and then when she goes to school, the daughter, when the daughter goes to school, she meets, like, a little gang of misfits. 

Todd: Well, she meets them in the cemetery, actually.

Oh, that’s right. I wanted to talk about this for just a second, like, they go into the town square at first, right? They, like, walk. Everything’s within walking distance in this town. It is that small. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And they walk into the town square and they’re setting up for some kind of festival and this woman pulls up in a truck that has this giant jack o lantern.

I love this prop, actually. I love this prop. Love it. It’s like a truck that’s been transformed and half of it just looks like a big jack o lantern and 

Craig: It looks like it’s being eaten by a Yeah. Giant evil jackal. Yeah. 

Todd: Out pops the mayor. And she is played by, what, Lauren Lapkus? Yeah. She’s hilarious. Yeah, she’s funny.

And she does like voices and things like that. She’s been in a lot of things. 

Craig: Yeah. She did a stint on the Big Bang Theory, but she’s been in a lot of things. And she’s very, very funny. 

Todd: She’s the kind of person that I always thought was on Saturday Night Live at some point, but isn’t. Ha ha ha ha. No. Like, she just gives that impression, you know?

Oh, she just gives off the former Saturday Night Live player air. True. And anyway, you know, she’s talking about the festival and the town and welcoming there, and just, it’s just very nice and sweet. I mean, again, there’s like, No real conflict here, we’re not setting up any tension, except for this dumb thing where the dad’s just like, Ew, Halloween, you know, everywhere he turns and is openly disdainful.

But everyone else is like, Eh, yeah, whatever, you know, it’s like they almost ignore it or don’t even notice it. And she says, Oh, we got this festival affair going on. And that’s when she brings up the, people can set up booths or something. And that’s when the bakey thing comes in. And the wife goes, wife’s name is.

Uh, 

Clip: so, is there gonna be any food at this festival? Of course, yeah, a lot of the local stores are setting up booths. We got hot dogs, funnel cakes, chowder, everything. Uh, is there gonna be any artisanal vegan baked goods? I don’t know what that means, but sure, why not? 

Craig: And this is so one note and stupid to like throughout the course of the movie like she eventually does Eventually she said she leaves it’s Halloween night or whatever and she leaves and she sets up her Bake sale at this festival and they just keep coming back to her either via phone call Like the dad will call her for advice or something or they’ll just come back to her as she’s like sitting there Selling her goods.

And every time she’s selling her goods, she sells it to somebody and they just wanna like throw up. Like it’s the most, like they spit it out. Yeah. At one point she gives something to a priest and he takes a bite of it and she’s like, what do you think? And he says, I’m really not supposed to lie. And hands it back to her and walks 

Todd: away.

Oh my god. You’re laughing because it’s so dumb. Yeah, not because it’s funny, because it’s dumb. Because every time we come back to this woman and someone tries her goods, it’s like, Uh, yeah, I know what’s gonna happen. Can we just skip past this scene? It’s also just a stupid joke. I would expect this joke like in the 70s or maybe the 80s.

I don’t expect this joke from a movie that was made two years ago. The idea of laughing about how gluten free and vegan stuff tastes bad, we’re long past that. It doesn’t even taste bad anymore. 

Craig: No. I mean, it’s still not my favorite, but come on, it’s ridiculous. And like, it’s such a stupid joke, and like, the end cap on it is at the very end of the movie, when everything works out fine, because this is a kid’s movie, everybody ends up around the island in the kitchen the next morning, and the mom’s like, Here, I made some Cinnamon rolls.

And the dad and the daughter are like, UGH. Like don’t eat them. But the other kids eat them and they’re like, these are so good. So the dad and the daughter eat them too and they’re like, oh man, these are good. What’s in them? And she’s like, butter and sugar and gluten. Like, that’s a funny joke. 

Todd: And she says, I just.

Life. I just decided life is too short. This is so dumb as to almost be offensive. That’s how dumb it is. I 

Craig: don’t know. Maybe kids would think that was funny. I don’t know. Nobody’s 

Todd: gonna think that’s funny now. No, it’s 

Craig: really stupid 

Todd: and poor Kelly Rowland. Poor her. She had to do this and probably had to know how dumb this was.

Like, if you’re gonna dig into a heaping treasure chest of Hollywood cliches. Why is this the one you had to pull out for this movie in 2022? It’s pretty dumb. 

Craig: The mayor tells them also about, you know, I guess it’s their local legend of Stingy Jack. Oh, I 

Todd: turned his story into a sweater. That was, oh yeah, that was hilarious.

Funniest line in the whole movie. Oh, I turned his story into a sweater. So she’s got a sweater there that and she points to the different elements on the story 

Clip: According to an old Irish legend there once lived a wicked man named Stingy Jack And he was such a jerk that the villagers finally had enough and but the devil felt sorry for Jack so he made him a lantern a Pumpkin carved out with a flame the fires of hell Every Halloween, Jack would return to our town, Bridge Hollow, to seek his revenge on the descendants of the villagers who did him in.

Well, at least that’s what we tell the tourists, am I right? 

Todd: It was a very, very simple type story. This is a very cutesy script, and there’s nothing innovative about this backstory. 

Craig: They, uh, okay, so you said those, the kids meet in the cemetery. Yes, because, because, 

Todd: Sid, the girl, is wandering around downtown, and she is looking down an alley and sees a sign that says, Cemetery service entrance?

Yeah, I know, I thought that was funny too. She just walks off screen down this alley, and in the next shot, she’s in this big open field off a cemetery that’s surrounded by trees and woods. I laughed so hard at that. I wondered if it was an intentional joke. It’s so dumb that I thought it was supposed to be funny.

Like, the cemetery is literally right next to the town square and that whole side of the square behind it is just this giant open field with woods around it.

Didn’t even occur to me. And of course, she’s walking through and whatever and then we get a little jump scare because as she walks by a, uh, what are those, like a tomb, right? They’re above ground, kind of mini mausoleum crypts or whatever. Yeah. The door spring open, and three kids come out of it, and they’re all goth.

Well, two of them are goth, and one of them’s Mario. I mean, that’s his name, he’s not the character Mario. I mean, like, they didn’t make all three of them super goth. Mario’s kind of the out, the odd man out, odd man out. 

Craig: Yeah, all three of them are kind of supposed to be like outsider kids. Like, there’s Ramona, she’s really short, and she’s the goth one.

She’s got, like, black hair, and we’re his dad. Dark eyeliner. She’s so cute. She’s tiny, but Jamie’s got like purple hair and she’s dressed in she’s got she has blonde hair But she has like purple streaks in it. She’s very pretty. I mean, they’re all cute They’re all kids, but it’s you know, they set it up like oh, here’s their little gang The whole movie by the way, I’ve been meaning to say it since the beginning.

It reminds me a lot of Goosebumps. 

Todd: Yeah 

Craig: But I think Goosebumps did it better. 

Todd: Way better. 

Craig: I mean, I don’t want to talk bad about this movie, because ultimately I really get Watching it was a really enjoyable experience. 

Todd: I also want to say I’m lovingly making fun of it, because the movie has a bad I didn’t read any of the reviews, but all I saw was like, it’s like a 28 or 38 percent on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic.

I didn’t even want to read any any a word anybody said about it, because, again, like you, I enjoyed it for what it was, And I’m not going to be too harsh on it, because I think they probably made what they intended to make. They clearly weren’t trying to break any new ground here. They were just trying to make, again, I think like the equivalent of one of those like Hallmark Christmas movies for Halloween and for kids.

So, you know, but I mean, come on. They didn’t try very hard to, you know, color outside of the lines here, you know. 

Craig: That’s what I’m saying, like, missed opportunities, because then I thought that this, you know, much like Goosebumps was gonna follow this little ragtag group of kids, but it doesn’t. They’re just kind of hanging out in the background too, and ultimately, I don’t even remember exactly how it happens.

Sidney is in her attic, or goes up to the attic for some reason. No 

Todd: she doesn’t! Oh, I can’t wait to talk about this too! Alright, cause I just finished watching it, that’s why it’s so much fresher in my mind. But I made a note, so, at the behest of these kids, because these kids tell her, Oh, you’re the one who just moved into the old Madam Hawthorne’s house, which by the way happens to be the crypt that they walked out of too.

Yeah. And I didn’t know that Crypts in cemeteries just had swinging doors where you could walk in and out of them and nobody gave a shit. They’re locked, but that’s how this cemetery works. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, uh, they’re like, oh, well, you know, they say that her go, her spirit still haunts that place. And she’s like, really?

And they’re like, yeah, we’ve got some homework for you. So she comes home. She goes upstairs by herself into someone’s bedroom down the hall, opens up an iPad, and a Ouija board app. Puts her fingers on the planchette on the touchscreen on the Ouija board app. And I’m like, how is this app supposed to work?

Does the planchette like Move under your fingers, and you’re just supposed to move your fingers along with it or something? Like 

Craig: Also, she did not read the terms of agreement, because what is the first rule of Ouija boards? You gotta have more people! You never do it alone. She’s lucky she didn’t get possessed.

I guess so, I just I’ve seen that movie. 

Todd: Many times. So anyway, then after she does this, I don’t know, some little wind blows and some spooky sounds happen. And then down at the end of the hall in this beautiful house, a door slowly creaks open. She walks into that door and suddenly we’re like in the f ing attic.

This beautiful house with this second floor, with these rooms and bedrooms and everything is modern and beautiful. For some reason they decided to leave one room. Unfinished from the 19th from the 1850s completely unfinished to the point where there are cobwebs You know laugh and plaster walls you’re seeing in here like nobody stepped in there for 

Craig: 50 I don’t remember but are you sure she didn’t go up some stairs because it definitely felt like an attic 

Todd: She never went upstairs Stairs, that is the funny thing about this opens the door and steps into this room.

Again, I thought the movie was with me, you know, I thought the movie was trying to be silly, but no, it was really that way. And yeah, she just kind of like trips over some things and knocks a skateboard, which like hits like a tricycle, which hits a lamp and ends up falling into one of these walls. 

Craig: Yeah.

It’s like a Rube Goldberg mousetrap type series of events. Something then falls. Into and breaks through a wall and she looks in there and there’s a trunk in there and she pulls it out and She opens it up and there’s an old fashioned Jack o lantern and it’s funny because it’s it’s a whole joke. It’s a turnip It’s a jack o lantern made out of and that’s that’s that tracks Is a legit thing.

Like, yeah, that’s in the olden days. Right. And then more things happen. I don’t remember exactly how it gets set up, but there’s this building conflict between her and her dad. Like he’s so into science and wants her to be into science, but she wants to do other things and she wants to be in the paranormal society and, and the mom is trying to mediate and trying to get the dad to loosen up a little bit.

It all ends up on Halloween night. They’re in the kitchen together. And they’re arguing about something. Yeah. And she has, and she has that jack o lantern. 

Todd: Well, I mean, we got there because Dad was gonna forbid her from doing Halloween stuff. He’s like, you don’t do that. Like, we’re not gonna do that. We’re not a superstitious people or something like that.

I mean, he’s a major buzzkill. Dad is. Oh God, yeah. And by the way, We’ve been to the school, because Dad, you know, is the new science teacher there, so he’s introduced to his classroom, and that’s when we meet the principal. Who is this happy go lucky dude who’s played by John 

Craig: Michael Higgins. He’s so funny.

He’s delightful. He’s 

Todd: always delightful. He’s been in a million things, and Best of Show, and all that stuff. But yeah, so, he was fun, and I just gotta point this part out, too. Like, the dad opens a cabinet. In his room that’s supposed to have chemicals in it and out springs a plastic skeleton that falls on him and he freaks out Like this is the scariest thing that has happened to him in a long time And he’s so shaken by it.

Even when the kids are streaming into the classroom Marlon Wayans just a stand there like oh Staring at that skeleton in the closet. Oh my God, you know when we did the worst witch and you know They were playing terror tag or whatever. Yeah, I felt like this was like Along those same lines. Really?

You’re that scared of I mean, I know you hate halloween. You’re all scientific. He’s scared 

Craig: of skeletons Oh, right. He tells that story later like the reason that he is It’s so sciency, it’s because one time when he was a kid, he was playing around an old house or something and, I don’t know, like the floor fell out from underneath him and he fell into the cellar.

When he looked around, the cellar was full of stuff. Skeletons, but they were alive and they were like coming for him and then he was terrified but then the doctors explained to him that sometimes people who get concussions hallucinate and So he had a scientific reason For what happened. And so he knew that everything real had a scientific explanation and that’s why he just cannot wrap his head around anything, but you’re right.

Like he is just such a buzzkill. Like my guy, I get it. Like you’re not into it. That’s cool. Your daughter wants to do it. Like, just, 

Todd: what is your problem? Your daughter goes by the, the Yoder’s general store and buys a rubber bat and hangs it over the door, which, as he comes home, he sees it and he yanks it down like he’s angry.

He walks into the kitchen, opens up the trash can, and chucks it in there. Like, alright, maybe you don’t like the fact that she has this bat, but your daughter bought that bat. Are you gonna throw that away? 

Craig: And it’s one little tiny decoration, like, calm, Down, sir. Right. But we haven’t even gotten to the fun part of the movie, like, so, like, she, for, she lights the jack o lantern, the, the turnip jack o lantern, um, and then he blows it out but it comes back, it lights back up again, he blows it out and comes, like, it keeps coming on and eventually he throws it in the trash can and then the trash can starts shaking and that bat, that toy bat, that decoration bat that he threw in there flies out and it’s got red eyes.

And it like flies all around and scares them and they’re freaking out or whatever. But eventually it flies out of the house and across the street into a cauldron in a Halloween display with witches. 

Todd: With these awesome witches. 

Craig: Oh, it’s great. And the, and the cauldron kind of starts to glow red and then the witch’s eyes turn red and they come alive and, and go flying and like they fly across the moon.

It’s so great. All of this is amazing. Like, I love this. It’s so much and 

Todd: appropriately scary. I mean, I was like, man, those witches are bad ass and it is so cool and they’re cackling. 

Craig: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s great. I mean, it takes time and there’s a series of scenes, but what happens is it’s like it spreads. I think the dad even says sometimes it’s like a virus, like it spreads and it does.

Todd: He says it’s like, it’s like a virus, which makes sense because it started with the bat. Oh my God.

This movie would be banned in China for that alone. I’m just telling you that right now. 

Craig: There are also, I thought they made a mistake because I think this is a fun movie that some, like, if you see this when you’re a kid, I think maybe this will be something that you really enjoy and cling to. And I thought that they made a mistake by including some jokes and references that will clearly date it.

Yeah. I mean, that’s one of them, obviously, but I feel like there are just other like pop culture references. Yeah. One of my favorite things is one of the things, like the bat, that is spreading this around is a cat, but it’s like a two dimensional, like, plywood cat that’s running around spreading it, and it spreads it to the neighbor who has the zombies, and the zombies come alive, and those are the first things that the dad and the daughter really have to confront.

And the daughter is awesome. I don’t think she’s well written. I think that the girl who plays her is great. And I just think that she had to say the words that were written. And yeah, she’s all the time. Just like dad, come on. Like, look, it’s real. Like dad. It’s just the two of them bickering back and forth all the time and the movie is supposed to be about them Learning about each other and building a relationship, but it doesn’t 

Todd: work.

No, there’s no moments. There’s no build It’s just you know They have these action scenes and dad’s got to do something and then she has to convince him and then he Kind of starts to understand, I mean, at some point I was like, come on, what you, you really think there’s a scientific explanation for this?

Like all these spiders just came to life. 

Craig: The zombies come to life. He did. Oh, those are great animatronics. 

Todd: No, 

Craig: come on. Come on. Yeah, it’s ridiculous. Yeah, that happens. And then you’re right. Then I don’t remember. They go to the school at some point. I was saying another thing that dates it. The kids. The, the, the nerdy paranormal kids.

Mario is dressed like Hamilton, right? 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And Ramona is dressed as Cruella. That’s pretty timeless. That’s fine. I couldn’t figure out who the third one was supposed to, was she supposed to be Tanya Harding? 

Todd: I have no idea. Even Tanya Harding is a dated reference. Come on. 

Craig: I couldn’t figure it out. Somebody, somebody tell us in the comments who she was supposed to be, because she was clearly supposed to be somebody specific.

I couldn’t figure it out. Very eighties and they look great and it’s fun. I don’t remember if it’s before or after that, because again, at this point it just seems like vignettes. They’re just going from location to location for new things. All of this is because of Jack, whatever, Stingy Jack. 

Todd: At some point we get a backstory.

Yeah, cause they go to, cause Sully, after, you know, fighting off the, the Zombies. I don’t remember why, he overhears them say something about Hawthorne or whatever, and he says, Oh, her, and she’s like, And the girl’s like, no, she can’t still be alive. He’s like, oh, I thought you were talking about her granddaughter.

Her granddaughter’s still alive, she’s at the nursing home. So they decide to go to the nursing home to talk to the granddaughter, who is a freaky looking herself. Yeah. She’s an old lady with white, I guess Cataracts. Cataracts. Eyes, or whatever, yeah, but she tells the story of when she was a little girl, her mother and her witch friends held a seance at their house in order to contain the spirit of Jack, and he didn’t go well, and eventually they were able to contain him, Jack wanted to come back more they had made an agreement that he could come back every Halloween for a day?

I didn’t 

Craig: really get that. It didn’t make sense. Somehow, like, he made a deal with the devil that if he could Find a different soul to give back to the devil then he could Stay and then it would be Halloween all the time. You 

Todd: had to like possess somebody basically or something 

Craig: No, I think he has to take like there’s like there’s this big vortex to hell I guess that opens up at midnight on Halloween.

He’s got to toss someone down there. He’s got to toss somebody in there Oh, okay, like I didn’t quite catch that bit And then he can stay and it’ll be Halloween all the time. All right, whatever. I don’t know so they talked to that Creepy old lady like she was funny. I think that she’s an old Hollywood actress.

I don’t know I looked at her imdb page and it was a black and white picture of her when she was younger So she’s obviously been around a long time But the whole nursing home is decorated in spider webs and spiders and a giant spider 

Todd: more effort I’m sad. I’m, sorry to say than any nursing home usually puts Forward for decorations.

Craig: Yeah, I haven’t done it in a long time, but the nursing homes around here are great I’ve taken little kids around to trick or treat cause those, the old folks love seeing the kids in their Halloween costumes. But anyway, all the spiders come alive and they have to have a big spider battle. And then, and Oh God, the dad like sciences out and mixes chemicals to make some acidic like supernatural bug spray.

Todd: It’s one thing that 

Craig: he 

Todd: gets MacGyver about it, but on the other hand, he’s always like, Pop quiz! What happens when you mix X with X and blah blah blah? He’s trying to make some science lesson, like he’s continually trying to prove a point, or continually trying to teach his daughter, you know, lessons in chemistry.

Well, 

Craig: and in do I don’t even know if they talked about this in the movie, but in doing that, like, he’s always talking to her like she’s so And she’s not, like, she’s super smart. Like, she, she knows all this stuff. So, then, I feel like that’s when they go to the school, and there’s, like, a haunted maze in the school.

There’s, 

Todd: like, two of them, yeah. Well, there’s a haunted carnival, creepy carnival, and that was awesome. 

Craig: Yes, yeah, this whole thing is great. Like, they had mentioned it earlier because her new friends were going to be working at, I don’t remember what it was called, something about a, some kind of haunted maze.

And they were going to be working at it, and so I was excited. 

Todd: And real quick, the reason why they go to the school is because, The woman, I think, tells them that there’s a grimoire, like the, the spells that her grandmother had were in a book, that the kid looks up online to find where the book is, and, oh, it was sold off on auction to this guy who happens to be at the school now, so that’s why they go there.

Craig: Right. I mean, there is connective tissue, like Oh, it’s 

Todd: so thin and so dumb. I know, it 

Craig: just does I, I feel like it doesn’t matter. 

Todd: No. 

Craig: You know, they, they, they get to the school, and then they get chased around by really scary clowns. Like, they’re really scary. Yeah. I loved the shots from above of them in the maze.

Like they’re running around in the maze and the clowns are chasing them. And it, it was scary to see, you know, there’s just one very small partition between them and these killer clowns. And then they’re just turning a corner just in time to get away. Like I really liked it. Yeah, it was good. Like it was a really fun.

Fun viewing experience. And then at the end, the dad and the kids meet up, they, they get out of the maze and they meet up and they have to fight one of the clowns who has an axe. And yes, the, the dad fights him for a minute. And then the girl comes in and like, she’s like the karate kid. And she like, like swing kicks Emily.

Todd: How about when Marlon Wayans squares up with that one clown and goes, homie, don’t play that. Before 

Craig: he kicks him. That was. I did laugh out loud at that. I did too. I had almost forgot about Homey the Clown. Oh boy. Homey 

Todd: the Clown, don’t mess around. Oh gosh. Even when he’s up, the man’ll bring him down. You know, I loved this bit.

I mean, obviously, it’s a little suspect that these decorative clowns and things that they’re gonna have in this have actual axes and machetes. I know, right? 

Craig: Yeah, I mean, it’s a little bit difficult to understand the rules of it because when those clowns come alive, they are clearly men in clown suits.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But like you said, any time they are dispatched or dismembered, There’s no blood or gore, it’s just, like, props. And you know they die because their red lights go out. 

Todd: Yeah, so how are they actually getting dispe yeah, what does it take to, like, dismember it to the point where no bit of it moves anymore?

Yeah, it’s kind of hard to say. 

Craig: Well, and it’s one thing when a cardboard Halloween cat is chasing you around. It’s it’s just from a viewing perspective, the zombies are the same way. Like, they’re clearly Real. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Whereas some of the things maintain their look like, I don’t know. Again, there’s this whole chase for, they’re looking for this book and the guy who was supposed to have it sold it on eBay and he doesn’t know who bought it, but he knows the address ’cause it was 6, 6, 6.

So they 

Todd: walk to 666 Elm Street, which it’s like, really? If you sold it to a guy, you didn’t need to mail it. It seems like you could have just walked this 

Craig: to his son. You sold it to a guy on the internet who lives down the street 

Todd: in town. And 

Craig: it’s the principal, who is low key a devil worshiper, right? Well, he claims to not 

Clip: be.

Floyd. Uh huh. What are you, some type of Satanist or something? Oh jeepers no, Howard. Howard! I’m a principal in a very small town with a very big Christian population. No, no, no, I just Collect things, you know, some people collect stamps some people collect butterflies I collect objects related to the eternal damnation of the human soul 

Craig: I think he’s a low key Satanist because then at the end, when they win, he’s like, I’ve switched teams.

I don’t know. But his yard is decorated. It’s great. It’s fantastic. It’s so good. I wish that I had the money and the time and the storage space to set up a whole like football team of skeletons. It’s just skeletons and football jerseys and helmets. And it’s great. He’s a 

Todd: principal with school spirit. I like this guy.

Craig: Right. They find the spell, they find the spell book, but then the skeletons come alive, and there’s a whole And remember, the dad is scared of skeletons. And they fight them, and then I think they all end up down in the basement, and then the dad and this daughter have, or somebody, I don’t know, they have a talk about 

Todd: She gives him a lame pep talk.

Quick, this little pep talk that changes his whole worldview in, uh, in 30 seconds. Dad! 

Clip: What is wrong with you? The skeletons. Ah, they’re coming through! What do we do? So it’s unexplainable. So what? They’re real. And you know what you can do to something that’s real? You can kick its ass! 

Craig: And he’s like, okay, so he grabs the chainsaw

and he goes upstairs and there is a whole big scene of him taking out these skeletons with the chainsaw and it’s fun. 

Todd: I loved it. It’s super fun. It’s another reason why I wouldn’t show this to my seven year old though. Even though they were clearly props and they’re skeletons or whatever, he lops limbs off, he cuts them.

It’s almost like what Art the Clown would do, you know, except This is just dust and, and bones and whatnot. Still not ready for my son to see. A chainsaw being wielded in that manner on humanoid like creatures. 

Craig: Let’s just put it that way. I get it. And I don’t disagree with you, 

Todd: but it’s awesome. 

Craig: It’s so much fun.

Todd: Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. 

Craig: In all of the ruckus, the spell book gets, all the pages come out and flutter all around, and the page with the spell gets burned. They hear a weird rumbling, and then when they go outside, all of the decorations from all of the yards are gone, and they’re like, Oh no, what’s happening?

And they’re like, oh, they must be gathering. And they’re gonna gather in the town square where the festival is, because at the festival they have a giant stingy jack. And whoever wins the pumpkin carving ceremony, that pumpkin gets to be Stingy Jack’s head. So, the kids and the Wayans brother, uh, head towards town, but on the way, they stop by the ceremony cemetery to go to the Hawthorne Crypt to do a seance.

Yes, because they have to get they have to get the spell because the spell got burned up the old lady Hawthorne in the flashback is played by Nia Vardalos of my big fat Greek wedding and then she possesses Marlon Wayans and talks through him and one of the girls records it for Tik Tok and then they leave.

Right, and all of the Halloween decorations have gathered in the town square and the the townspeople have put the giant pumpkin on Stingy Jack’s head and The mayor is leading the ceremony and when all of the Halloween decorations show up she thinks it’s like their rival town Coming to mess up their festival and so she kind of like leads a charge with her town To like face off with them.

Todd: It’s so dumb I guess it’s supposed to be funny because this sweet like very peppy and very Gung Ho Mayor, who just seems so nice, has got it in for, like, Shelbyville, basically, you know. 

Craig: I know, her character is so funny. I really like that actress, Lauren Lapkus. I think she’s really, really funny. She does a really odd accent.

Like, she’s got, like, uh, Bronx, like, I 

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: It’s weird, like, what are you doing? Nobody else in that town has that accent. It 

Todd: doesn’t even fit. I was waiting at some point for her to like, say something like, Oh yeah, I moved here from New York too, or something like that. But, I don’t know, it’s 

Craig: really weird.

But anyway, so it all culminates. The dad and, and the kids all get to the square. And then Jack comes alive. And, and like flames like burst out of his mouth and eyes and I loved, God, I loved this. 

Todd: This was good. 

Craig: The Stingy Jack character at the end when he comes alive and oh man, it was great. It’s got an 80s vibe to me for some reason.

I’m not sure why. I know why. The real 

Todd: Ghostbusters or. Also hints and shades of Return to Oz are in there. You know, with the Jack character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also, you know, we did the Disney Legend of Sleepy Hollow for our patrons. And that cartoon, you know, has that flaming pumpkin in it. And the flames, like, shoot out of the pumpkin.

Out of its eyes and its nose. It all kind of came together for me. And kind of that feeling. It was cool. A little bit of Nightmare Before Christmas, too. I think there’s a pumpkin character. That looks a lot like that. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, I loved it. It’s great. He’s big, you know, like he’s really big. I would say he’s probably like 10 feet tall.

He’s huge. The dad and the daughter look for the mom because she was at her bake sale, but she’s gone and they know that Jack needs both. His lantern and a soul to trade at midnight. And they’re like, Oh no, because mom is at home listening to R& B, drinking wine. 

Todd: Not as devastated as she should be that slowly everybody spit her food back into their face.

You know, 

Craig: then she’s even like trying her own food and she’s like, Ooh, it is gross. And she’s like knocking her scone on a plate. And it like makes a clanking sound. Yeah. Scones are hard. Like scones are hard. It’s fine. 

Todd: That’s the worst thing. It’s a dumb joke. You should have made it like, I don’t know, like an angel thing.

Food cake that was that hard or something right so stupid. 

Craig: But anyway, he’s there. He skulks around He doesn’t actually get her before they show up the dad and the daughter show up they show up But then he does get her and then the bat is also back and causing problems and the dad and the daughter like there It’s like a moment like he he has to go rescue his wife.

He doesn’t want the daughter to kill Come because he doesn’t want her to be in danger or something, but like he has to trust her to take care of herself I don’t know like again, like I said, there’s some that’s what the the character growth is supposed to be He’s supposed to be learning that she’s growing up and he’s got to let go a little bit and like they they play act it Like it’s in the script, but it just doesn’t read.

No 

Todd: Because they’ve been fighting these monsters the whole time. I mean, like, there’s no real change. Like, Oh, I don’t know. It just, it’s silly. It’s silly. 

Craig: And so he goes in and he has to read the spell and he does, but it’s not working. And the daughter’s like, you have to really believe in it. So he reads it in English.

So 

Todd: he, apparently to 

Craig: believe it, he has to say it in English and he does. And Skinny Jack gets sucked into the hell vortex. And then they’re fine. And then it’s the next morning and everything’s fine and everybody’s happy and all the kids are there and everything’s great. And then he and the daughter go up to the attic and they’re gonna seal up the jack o lantern.

They can’t just destroy it because that might let him out again. I don’t remember ever hearing that. Right. I guess they’re just being cautious. I don’t know. Whatever. So they put it back in the trunk and they cover it in chemical flame retardant. Right. And they lock it back up and they have a little heart to heart about how, you know, he realizes she’s getting older and she can do things on her own and he trusts her and blah, blah, blah.

Please. And then I don’t know, somebody knocks something over and the Rube Goldberg thing happens again, breaks through another part of the wall and they look in there. And it’s full of locked trunks. And I think the last line of the movie is, Oh, hell no. 

Todd: Oh my god. That about summed it up, really. I’m surprised that Marlon Wayans even uttered that line.

Oh 

Craig: my god, I thought it was really funny. 

Todd: How dumb. Again, so dumb as to almost be offensive. 

Craig: Uh, no, I thought it was hilarious. Also, when they were having their heart to heart, Or no, no, no, gosh, no. It was when they were still down at the, uh, uh, standing around the, the kitchen island having cinnamon rolls.

They were saying something about how wild last night was. And I think it was Ramona said, Huh? You think that was wild? You should see what this town does for Christmas. And I was like, Oh my God, that is hilarious. Like just totally setting it up for a sequel. And then of course they, you know, they could do, A sequel with all of those other trunks too and I don’t think they will cause I haven’t heard anything.

I haven’t heard anything about it. I don’t think this movie did well enough necessarily to warrant a sequel, but for all of the crap that we’ve given it and I think that we’ve been really fair in that regard. It was a fun watch. I had fun watching it and and so I would 100 percent recommend it again.

The writing isn’t great. I don’t care. I don’t care because the, the stuff that I’m seeing and the stuff that is happening is, is so fun and it’s so Halloween y. I’m glad we saved it for the last one because of all the ones that we’ve seen, this one is just, it feels like such just a celebration of Halloween.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And for that, for that, I, I really like it. 

Todd: Yeah, I, I agree with you on all that. I’ll admit, I got a little bored about halfway through because it was just so predictable, and Yeah. You know, you could see where it’s going, there was nothing innovate nothing real edgy, like I said, even not even really attempting to be edgy in any way, shape, or form.

And so, I did get a little bored about halfway through it, but this is like a, that’s because I’m a 40 something year old guy watching it alone, you know, this is a family movie, you know, this is something you would sit down with your family and have a ball with, so, uh, it’s, it was made for that, it delivered, I think, on what it was made for, it’s a shame it couldn’t be a little more creative and clever and original but It fits the bill and the special effects really made up for it If the special effects had not been as good it would have been pretty a pretty lame movie Yeah, that redeems it to some degree It’s just the production value is high and the star power of it is is high You know Netflix has big pockets and yeah They do and they can put things like this together and then they do and I mean the fact that there isn’t a sequel to It should kind of show you because you know, sometimes it doesn’t matter what the critics think If audiences eat it up, it could be critically panned, but if it got a lot of views on Netflix, they’re gonna make a sequel, or they’re gonna do something with it.

Oh god, 

Craig: yeah, Netflix is totally driven by numbers, that’s all they care about. 

Todd: Yeah, and it doesn’t seem like, just by evidence of the fact that we’ve seen nothing moving on that front, it’s probably also didn’t get the viewership that they were hoping, so. But you know. A perfect Halloween movie. I’m so glad we saved this for the last week, because it’s Halloween through and through.

It’s a good Halloween movie to watch with your family. Don’t expect too much from it. Just sit back and enjoy the spirit of the season. 

Craig: Yeah, it’s fun. I mean, it’s like going to a haunted house or a haunted attraction. Like, there’s just so many fun things to look at. Like, that’s what, honestly, that’s what the movie feels like.

It feels like you’re moving from room to room in 

Todd: a 

Craig: haunted attraction. 

Todd: For sure. 

Craig: And it’s fun. I love that stuff. 

Todd: We did it because you recommended it. You, you saw it last year and you thought it would be good for us to do. We did it this year, and I’m glad we did. So thank you, Craig. Happy Halloween to all of you.

We hope that you, uh, have enjoyed this month and that you’ve still got a couple more days to go for the big day, so get your preparations in order. We would love to see what you’re doing. If you’re decorating your lawn or putting together a pretty awesome costume, post some pictures for us on our patrons page as well, if you’re a patron.

Otherwise, you know, you can search Two Guys and a Chainsaw podcast. And you can find our Facebook page, our website, all of those places, uh, you know, you’re able to, uh, interact with us and comment back. We’d love to hear what you are doing for Halloween and, uh, see some cool pictures from around the world until next time I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Sleepy Hollow remains a solid Tim Burton film – and his first foray into real horror. While it boasts a star-studded cast (Johnny Depp, Christina Ricci, Christopher Lee, Jeffrey Jones, and practically the entire cast of the Harry Potter series), we note that the passage of time has not remained kind to this one. What is wrong with it? Nothing, actually. It’s just … well, not what we expected, and not as fond as we remembered it.

Nevertheless, the classic tale of Ichabod Crane and The Headless Horseman is utterly PERFECT for conjuring up those Halloween vibes. Let’s take a deep dive into this as we get into the spirit of the season.

And if you’re a Patron of the show, you’ll also get access to our companion minisode, where we discuss the Disney animated version of the original Washington Irving tale upon which this movie is (loosely) based. Wander on over to our Patreon page and consider joining the crew for a discussion of both the cartoon AND the short story, as well as nearly 50 minisodes and other goodies exclusively for our Patrons!

Episode 412, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: We are knee, knee deep in the holiday season. Knee deep in the graveyard, as you might say. Knee. Where do I come up with this shit? I mean, I probably wouldn’t. Some people might say it. I don’t know. Maybe I said it for the first time and it’ll become a thing.

It’s cute. I like it. I once came up with a saying that I was spreading around and hoping that would spread so that by the time I saw it in a movie, I could tell everybody it actually came from me. I don’t think you should say it. Are you saying that because I’m scared. Oh yeah, it’s a fantastic one. I thought, like, what is something that people always say, like, Oh, that really ticks me off.

That really ticks me off or I’m really pissed or something like that. I thought, That really yanks my loins. Damn it, that yanks my loins. Pretty good, huh? I mean, that’s pretty good. It’s unique enough that if I heard it in a movie, I would know it only came from me. But I thought it was catchy. Thank you.

Okay. If any I’ll I’ll keep 

Craig: my 

Todd: ears out. My cousins in Illinois, when I was in high school, I think when they were in high school, so that was, this was many years ago, claimed that they, once I told them this, they started using it at school and they said everyone at school saying it, was saying it at some point.

So I had high hopes. But I have yet to see it in a movie, so, uh, that remains. Don’t give up. I won’t. Maybe, you know, once this spreads to both of our listeners, they can also go off and do the thing. I’ve still got lots of life to live. I think it’s got legs, man. Yanks my loins. That really yanks my loins.

Hello, welcome to Two Guys in a Chainsaw. Hope we don’t yank your loins today. 

Craig: You know what really yanks my loins? Yeah!

It works, doesn’t it? Get 

Todd: on 

Craig: with it. It works, okay. It’s, it’s, it’s something. 

Todd: We were looking for a wide variety of Halloween stuff to do, and it seemed like the list that I came up with was getting a little skewed towards, like, children, kind of kidsy movies, and I thought, you know what, that’s kind of fine.

So why don’t we go ahead and throw this mainstream movie in that I remember from 1999 called Sleepy Hollow. Starred Johnny Depp, Christina Ricci, was directed by Tim Burton. I remembered it as being fun and fairly light. You know, as far as horror movies go, that it wasn’t really so scary. It was just full of atmosphere and pretty much suitable for your older, younger set.

So when we went back to watch it this time around, which I hadn’t seen since it came out, I was pretty shocked at how gory it was. I was really surprised, and so I’m kind of happy that we sat down to do this one this season because I was really happy to revisit it, there was a lot I’d forgotten about it, and it is maybe the most horror of a Tim Burton movie that Tim Burton’s ever done.

Oh yeah. And, and that’s odd because you think of Tim Burton as being the spooky guy, but in actuality, he really hasn’t done much of what you would consider horror, and I think this might be horror. At the top of the list. He certainly took the project because he, he hadn’t done a horror movie yet, which is odd because horror movies were his favorite movies growing up.

He was a hammer horror fan. He was a Vincent Price nut, you know, and, and, and all that. And it really kind of inspired. the direction you decide to take things, so. It was fun revisiting it, but uh, this is the first time I’d seen it since it came out. I’m not sure if I’d seen it in the theater or rented it, probably 50 50 one or the other, but yeah, I had a good time.

How about you? What was your history with this movie? 

Craig: I, I, I don’t know. I’ve been trying to think. My memory is so bad, so I’ll tell you what I think I remember, but I may be just totally making it up. I think that I remember being really excited about this. Like when the trailers came out, because I really liked Tim Burton, you know, especially up to this point, I’d really liked the stuff that he had done.

And up to this point, I liked Johnny Depp. And I really like this story. Like, this is one of my favorite Halloween stories. When we were growing up, the Disney version? Yes. The animated one would play annually on television? Young people today just don’t know. You just don’t know. You know? Young 

Todd: people today, they just don’t get it.

Craig: There were these great things, like these holiday specials, or just movies that they would play yearly, usually around some holiday. Like, The Sound of Music, or Wizard of Oz, or something like that. And that would be for many of us, the only access you had to that. So when it came up. Every year. It was so exciting every year at Halloween.

I was so excited to get to watch the sleepy hollow cartoon. It was so cute. So I was super excited about this movie. And I think that I remember being disappointed. I’m not sure why. Well, I think I know. Watching this again, I still wasn’t super into it and I was telling Alan like, I don’t know what I’m gonna say because there’s nothing wrong with this movie.

Like, it should hit on every level and just for some reason it just doesn’t for me and I can’t figure it out. Maybe we can suss it out as, as we talk. I don’t know. 

Todd: We might be able to. I, I don’t know. I, I, like you, uh, loved that Disney, what, it was my first introduction to the story and it’s a very compelling story.

Craig: It’s super, super faithful to the, to the text. Oh, it is. To the Washington, yeah, the Washington Irving text. Now the Washington Irving text, I’ve tried to teach that several times and kids are just not into it. And I get it. Yeah. Because it’s long and it’s kind of boring. Well, 

Todd: it’s, it’s all narration.

There’s no, you know, it’s like a story told by a, you Heard from a guy, heard from a guy, you know, and it’s kind of done in that vein. Didn’t Washington Irving have a book that was ostensibly essays and letters from somebody else? You know, like, He just, Oh, I don’t know. It’s a good story. It is. But it’s, it’s like the tale you’d hear from some old man sitting around talking, telling you, you 

Craig: know, I mean, it, it, it, it, me, it meanders.

Like it’s a lot of like local color. 

Todd: It’s heavy on description. That doesn’t matter world. 

Craig: Yeah. Like world building of the area and like all these like old legends. And it really is a good story. It really is. But you need, you have to be in the mood for it. It’s, it’s not like a page turner. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s less like reading a novel or a short story as it is like having somebody tell you something that they heard happen once.

Yeah. While you’re sitting in a bar and the music is loud or whatever. It’s just, it’s not gonna hit the same. But I actually really like that story because I find it cozy. 

Craig: Yeah, oh, it’s very cozy, sure. 

Todd: You just kind of disappear into a little world for a while and I, and the language of that time, you know, the writing, Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s just so, sometimes I’m really in the mood for that. Let me just put it that way. It’s almost Me too. Yeah. I get it. It transports you back to a time you never lived in but wish you had sometimes. Anyway, yeah, we’re gonna actually do the Disney story of, uh, Ichabod Crane, the cartoon, as a minisode for our patrons.

So if you’re actually interested in hearing us talk a little bit more about the Disney movie and about the short story that inspired it, go to Patreon. com slash Chainsaw Podcast and think about signing up. It’s just five bucks a month and you get access to a whole bunch of minisodes. And the ones that we’ve already done and the ones we do in the future, lots of other goodies and things like that.

So I think I kind of know why, because I liken this a little bit to the movie Van Helsing. 

Craig: Yes. Oh my God. I put that in my notes and I was super excited about that movie too. And then it was just okay. Like, and again, it should have, it’s exactly What I think I want it to be, but for some reason it’s just not.

I was curious as to whether you would be a bigger fan of this. Because I should have figured it out on my own, but I really didn’t figure it out until I started reading about it. That he did this very much in the style of Of the Hammer horror films and Mario Bava films. Now, Mario Bava films I’m not nearly as familiar with.

I know we’ve done a couple. Tell me, what are some of the ones that we’ve 

Todd: done? Honestly, we have not done a Mario Bava film yet, which is Are you serious? Yeah, I’m sorry. We did one by his son. His son did Demons, and so we did that one. So we probably talked a little bit about him, and we said Bava, but it was not Mario.

Black Sunday is one of my favorite old movies, and it’s cited constantly as a inspiration for so many people who grew up watching those 60s horror movies and hammer horror movies that and finally went on to direct in themselves, and little pieces and bits of it end up in movies. We’ve seen the actress from that became very, very popular and has shown up in movies that we’ve done, including Piranha.

She was one of the mean scientists who was part of the conspiracy. So, yeah, we, we’ve talked about Black Sunday and Mario Bava a little bit, but we’ve never done it. And now I’m thinking we need to rectify that. We need to at least do Black Sunday, if nothing else, that Mario Bava has done. He is a big blind spot right now in our, 

Craig: You are more familiar with all of those films than I am, but I think I may have just figured it out.

I think it’s when a brilliant filmmaker looks back at the films that they were inspired by and want to emulate it. Like, here’s my tribute to it, or I like it so much. I want to do something like it and they try to recreate it and you just can’t like it 

Todd: maybe yeah 

Craig: with the modern effects And it’s just different so much of what those movies are to me is style And I understand that you you can imitate style But just the visual me as the viewer looking at it the visual style.

I understand. Yes Okay, so Burton filmed most of this movie on set But it doesn’t look like it. 

Todd: Not at all. 

Craig: The old Hammer movies, they look like sets. I almost feel like I’m watching a play. So it’s totally different. And, and so I think it just doesn’t work. Like trying to think of other things like that.

Tim Burton’s Dark Shadows. Nobody was into 

Todd: yeah, 

Craig: I feel like when you try too hard to recapture something in this case I just don’t I don’t know and it’s not a bad movie. It’s not no, it’s a good 

Todd: movie It just doesn’t work for me So I’m gonna be a little kinder than you on this because I do feel like he did a pretty good job of Recreating the look and the and the style of hammer films visually Again, like what you said is very true, like, updating it a little bit, because it’s just much more, it’s got a bigger budget and better teams behind it, you know, it’s more competent and stuff, so like, the sets don’t really look like sets, even though they’re still just as covered in fog and obscured and kind of small as they were, you know, when you’re doing, say, like, in, in, in one of the old Hammer Dracula movies, where you’re out in the woods and it’s just a bunch of branches and things and a lot of fog to kind of disguise the fact that you’re actually in a small confined space.

It’s hard to make a set look big, you know, when it’s, uh, inside of a, even when it’s inside, like, an airplane hangar. 

Craig: And they do it brilliantly here. Like, it’s so, the whole thing is so well done. Tim Burton is a genius. Like, I just think he’s an absolute genius. I said earlier, like, Up until this point, I was a big fan of him and Johnny Depp.

I’m, I’m still a big Tim Burton fan. I feel like the stuff that he’s put out more recently doesn’t really live up to some of his earlier stuff. And Johnny Depp, I’m just over, like, I was never all that into him. And at this point I’m just over him. I don’t get it. Let’s, let’s let him go. Let’s let him go 

Todd: away.

It sounds like you’re putting him to sleep. 

Craig: No, he can just go and be rich quietly somewhere else. I don’t need to see him anymore. 

Todd: I’m picturing you as, as an assassin coming up from behind Johnny Depp, real quick around the neck and he’s like struggling and you’re going and slowly lowering him to the ground.

That’s, that’s, uh, that’s a 

Craig: very vivid imagination, but, but, but Tim Burton is Brilliant. Edward Scissorhands is one of my favorite movies of all time. And Johnny Depp is brilliant in that too. I will give him credit where it is due. So I’m not like everything is beyond adept. The cinematography is gorgeous.

Right. The directing is good. I found the pacing weird, but I was also trying to put myself in a head space where he’s going for a certain type of movie and probably these hammer films and these, these Bava films were probably paced this way. It’s just not what you’re used to. It weirded me out that the movie felt like two different movies.

It felt like there was the first movie where they’re trying to figure out who the killer is. And of course everybody knows it’s the horseman, but. Ichabod Crane Johnny Depp is a man of reason so he can’t accept that and then about halfway through the movie He sees the horseman and so then that mystery is over.

Yeah, so then they introduced a new one 

Todd: So it’s like Sherlock Holmes kind of who did it sort of thing? 

Craig: Yeah, which is fine. It was just ah, I don’t know Yeah. The movie’s an hour and 45 minutes long. It felt long to me. 

Todd: I thought it was two and a half by the time I finished watching it. It would 

Craig: never 

Todd: end.

Ironically enough, I was just gonna say before you mentioned pacing, that I think that that is one thing that separates this, that makes us feel different from a Hammer Horror movie, and that is the pacing. Even though it’s a bit slow, there’s a lot. There is, it is plot heavy. Oh my god. There are so many characters, and there is so many plots, and so many twists, and so many turns, and so many details, that in that way, It feels kind of fast.

I mean, it’s not like a simple story told over a slow period of time, which is sort of how I feel like the pacing of the old Hammer Horror movies are. 

Craig: Yes. Yes. 

Todd: And so when you get in that, when you slip into that zone, that mental space, you know, that atmosphere Kind of all that’s left, right? So you’re just wallowing in that atmosphere and that atmosphere, I could say, kind of overtakes you and becomes overworldly and their dream sequences that fill the time and you know, there’s all this stuff.

Clip: Yeah. 

Todd: It’s very different from what this is, which like you said, is a plot heavy. First it’s one movie, then it’s another movie. It’s a detective story, it’s a whodunit, there’s got a million names to try to remember and figure out. I got lost halfway through and I stopped even paying attention. I did too.

Yeah, so in that way it’s got this sort of, they’re trying to shoehorn this very simple old story into a more of a, what they feel a modern audience can handle, you know, a more modern sensibility, an updating of it if you will. So instead of Ichabod Crane being this like, school teacher. Who is quite a simple man, but is trying to kind of woo this girl and thinks he’s got a shot at it.

Ichabod Crane’s character in the short story is freaked out by ghost stories. He believes, he’s not a skeptic, he’s the opposite. Oh yeah. He believes all these ghost stories and he’s terrified of everything. To the point where even, maybe even more so than the townspeople, of this already very superstitious town.

And this guy is not that at all. No, it’s very different. 

Clip: I am Constable Ichabod Crane. Sent to you from New York to investigate murder in Sleepy Hollow. Then Sleepy Hollow is grateful to you, Constable Crane. And we hope you will honor us by remaining in this house. Well spoke, dear. Well, come, sir. We’ll get you settled.

Clayon! 

Todd: And the efforts to make it seem like he’s scared of things and very skittish are really inconsistent. Because on the one hand, he’s a little ill at the sight of blood and jumping up at spiders that are scurrying across the floor. And on the other hand, he’s getting blood squirted in his face by voluntarily, you know, axing at a tree that’s bleeding.

Craig: There’s so much face squirting on Donny Jepp. Like, um, Tim Burton, um, like, There’s a lot of squirting on Johnny Depp’s face. I’m just saying, you might want to tone it down. 

Todd: He’s making his love for Donny Jepp a little too obvious in this one, isn’t he? And also, there’s this moment where he’s like, I’m gonna round up a posse of the most able bodied men to go in and after the Headless Horsemen.

At that point, I was just like, okay, it’s not the same story. It’s not at all. That is how I felt about Van Helsing. It was going for this old classic Universal’s monster feel. Of course, they had to update it by making a lot of computer generated effects. I can give that a pass or whatever. But Van Helsing becomes this, like, action superstar.

And the whole movie is just nothing but One action sequence to another which is completely betrays the feeling of those old films So it doesn’t feel at all like those old films and honestly when I was coming to see a movie about Van Helsing and was excited I wasn’t wanting to see Van Helsing as Indiana Jones, so it was, uh, disappointing.

And I kind of felt that way about this, too. I wasn’t coming to see Ichabod Crane as sort of like a Sherlock Holmesian man of reason who slowly becomes to believe in the supernatural, but is able to summon up the courage to have these long, drawn out action sequences where he’s leaping from a horse to a horse to a wagon train and summoning up a posse to single handedly go after, uh, This horseman deep in the dark woods.

That was disappointing. 

Craig: Yeah. I, even though some guy on the internet says that I’m too negative, I’m going to, I’m going to go ahead and say it anyway, and I feel, I feel, I feel okay about saying it because Johnny Depp himself. Says he’s not watched this movie because he hates the way he acted in it. I don’t like it either.

Yeah, it’s it’s it’s not like he does anything wrong. He’s fine. I just I was trying to figure this out because I don’t care for him anymore. It’s not just about stuff that’s been about his personal life. That’s been very public. That’s not charming, but Just as an actor, people kind of swoon over him and I just feel like he’s just kind of always the same to me and I feel like whatever he’s in, when everybody else is giving 10, he’s always giving 11.

So like he’s always just a little bit over the top and compared to everybody else and it just 

Todd: It throws off the balance. Scene stealing. 

Craig: People are gonna disagree with me and that’s totally fine. I understand that I am in the minority here. I, he’s a huge star, he has been for years. I, I respect that. He, just not my cup of tea, that’s all.

I understand if, if you like him, I get it, it’s fine, but I don’t. Dude, 

Todd: I’m with you on that, honestly. I love him in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. I really do. That is one of these situations where doing the wacky character that nobody kind of like was expecting but then it turned out like it was really, it worked.

But then, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, like, it’s the same deal, he’s like, I’m gonna go because I feel like Willy Wonka would be a childlike man so I’m gonna literally try to be as childlike as possible and then over the top and it, 

Craig: it sucks. Listen, I hate, I hate it. But I will at least give him credit for making a bold choice.

Todd: Well, that’s my point. He makes bold choices, and I think that is what people like about him, and that is what 

Craig: And that’s fair. 

Todd: And they’ll say, Oh, well, that means that he’s a great actor. I don’t know. I mean, don’t get me wrong. He’s a great actor. It’s just like, that’s kind of become his shtick. 

Craig: Yeah, that’s what I feel like.

It’s It seems a little lazy at this point. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. He’s And like, I, I appreciate the fact that like, you know, in the story, Ichabod Crane is supposed to be like, unattractive, and he offered to wear like prosthetics and stuff to make himself more physically unappealing. And Tim Burton didn’t want to do that.

He wanted to just focus on the unappealing. Aspects of his character, which is fine because he was super annoying and a, a big baby sometimes, like you said, but then at other times, I’m going to lead the charge. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, there’s, there’s so much, God, we, we couldn’t possibly, if we wanted to, it would take us all day to go through the whole plot, but there are so many notable things like this cast.

Yes. Is. Insane! I know, 

Todd: right? I had forgotten. It’s crazy! And, especially in retros actually, not really even in retrospect, because everybody in this was, uh, famous. Famous British actors, surprisingly. At one point, Johnny does Ichabod Crane, when he comes to Sleepy Hollow, he’s Ha ha! He’s a New York detective!

He’s in a room with every famous old man you’ve ever seen. Yeah! He’s in a room I was watching this with Liz, and she said, It’s like a reunion of the cast from Harry Potter. It is. It practically is. But it’s also, to be fair, kind of a reunion of everybody Tim Burton likes to put in his movies ever. So you’ve got, uh, Jeffrey Jones from a bunch of his movies, but you know, Beetlejuice.

Father and Beetlejuice. He plays the local, um, priest guy. Then you’ve got Michael Gambon. Who is the town mayor? What do they call it? Like, the constable? No, he’s just a rich guy. Who has a lot of influence? 

Craig: Yeah, he’s everybody’s friend, but also their banker. Yeah. I feel like he’s just the really rich guy who’s maybe a landlord.

Yeah, I think that’s what he is. He’s like a landlord. And 

Todd: of course, he’s, Michael Gambon was famously Dumbledore after the first, uh, Dumbledore. Two? First two Harry Potter movies, or first one? I don’t remember. He’s been in a million things. He pulled, um, what’s his name out of retirement? Alfred from, uh, Batman.

Michael Goe? Yes, Michael Goe. 

Craig: Ugh, I love him so much. He’s so sweet. 

Todd: He’s so, they really do him up in this too, and I guess he wasn’t gonna act anymore after that, but But, uh, he pulled him out of retirement. Yeah, this was, yeah, it was his last, 

Craig: and that was it. This was the last one. 

Todd: Yeah. Last live action role.

I guess he must’ve done a voice or, 

Craig: Oh, right. 

Todd: Who else is in there? 

Craig: Richard Griffiths, who is magistrate Phillips, who is uncle Vernon from Harry Potter, 

Todd: as I watched him slovenly sitting down, slurping things up and eating tea, I’m like, what must it be like? To be the guy, who it’s like, Anytime I need a big disgusting fat man, this is the actor I call, you know?

Craig: And isn’t he the one, like, At some point, he dies, a bunch of people die in this movie, But he, his death scene, he’s like, Walking up a hill, and I was genuinely concerned for him. I, is he going to make it up that hill? Right. Because he’s a big guy and it didn’t look like he got around very well. For sure.

Miranda Richardson plays Mrs. Van Tassel. She has, I mean, all of these people have been in a million things, but the Harry Potter connection she was Rita Skeeter. Casper Van Dien, who I have always loved. I think Casper Van Dien deserves A list. He 

Todd: does! Status. And I, I don’t understand why he doesn’t have it, because first of all, he’s just one of the most attractive looking guys in the world.

Yeah. And he’s real built, and he has been in like 150 things. I went to his IMDB page, because I was like, huh, I wonder if he’s like, still working pretty regularly? Oh yeah! For the past ten years, he’s been in like five movies or TV shows a year, at least. It’s kind of insane. But I first saw him in Starship Troopers, and I absolutely loved that movie, and I loved him in it.

Craig: Uh huh. 

Todd: And so that would be a little closer to this one, right? I think 1997 was Starship Troopers. And that was, I think about his breakout role, right? 

Craig: I guess that should have made him a huge star. 

Todd: It did more for, uh, what’s her name? Denise Richards. Denise Richards than it did for him. And I was shocked.

Well, I mean, if you’ve got to choose between the two, I’m not terribly shocked. 

Craig: I get it.

Todd: You know my, uh, my Denise Richards fascination, right? 

Craig: I do. I get it. She’s a beautiful, beautiful woman. Christina Ricci plays Katrina Van Tussle. Casper Van Dien plays Brom Bones, by the way. Vom Van Brunt in this. 

Todd: He’s like the Gaston of this. 

Craig: He totally is! Oh, we’ll talk more about that later. But Christina Ricci plays Katrina Van Tussle, who’s the daughter of the rich guy or whatever.

And they, I just, there are things about it that I love. I love that they live in like a big Gothic mansion that just looks like a backdrop. 

Clip: This land we’re looking at was Van Garret land given to my father when I was in Swadling Close. The Van Garrets were the richest family around these parts. When my father brought us to Sleepy Hollow, Van Garret set him up with an acre in a broken down cottage.

My father worked hard for his family, and prospered, and built this house. And I owe my happiness to him. 

Craig: Okay, so Winona Ryder was at, was offered this role and she turned it down, I assume because her relationship with Johnny Depp had gone sour. 

Todd: Oh really? 

Craig: Well, I assume so, I don’t think they were still dating at this time, I can’t imagine why else she would have turned it down.

Maybe she just had something else going on, I don’t know, maybe they were still together. They were together for a long time, they were like a hot couple. And 

Todd: weren’t their ages pretty close? 

Craig: I think he was older than her. And I think that they got together when she was very young, so Yeah, yeah. But, but, they, you know, they were a serious couple.

I love the story that he tattooed Wynonna forever on himself. And then when they broke up, he had it changed to Wino forever. I love that. I love that story. But he was Johnny Depp was like thrown to, I mean, mentally, like he was thrown when he found out he was gonna be playing a romantic part opposite Christina Ricci because he was significantly older than her and knew her since she was a little girl because he was dating Winona Ryder at the time that they were filming Mermaids.

And Christina Ricci was a, Child in that movie. Yes. I get it. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That’s funny. You want to hear a personal story? One time I was in a play. 

Todd: With, with Christina Ricci? Go on. With 

Craig: Christina Ricci. No, I, I got cast opposite one of my former students in a romantic role. Oh no. And we had to kiss a bunch. Oh my god.

Todd: That had to be strange. 

Craig: It should have been, but It wasn’t like she was still a child like, you know, she was in her 20s at this point, right? and it should have been weird, but I Obviously platonically loved her so much and like we worked so well together that it wasn’t weird at all. That’s sweet. Um, for us, like her classmates from when she was in school, we’re like, Oh, God, 

Todd: could 

Craig: you imagine?

Right? 

Todd: Mr. Higgins. Am I our English teacher? 

Craig: But for us, it was fine. She was wonderful. She was one of the most amazing acting partners I’ve ever worked with. But yeah, I mean, it was a little weird. So I get it. I get where you’re Johnny Depp is coming from. Oh, we didn’t mention Christopher Lee is in it for about two minutes in the beginning 

Todd: and apparently Christopher Lee in his memoirs Credited this film as being the one that were kind of reintroduced him to a new generation and he thinks it was directly responsible for him getting the roles in both Phantom Menace and Lord of the Rings?

Lord of the Rings, yeah. But Phantom Menace was filming around this time, so I don’t know if he just shot his scenes here early, or What the deal was? I’m not I’m not sure about all that, but 

Craig: Well, he surely could have shot all of his scenes in a day or two. Oh yeah, 

Todd: this was shot, yeah, in a In a hot minute, but this movie hadn’t even been out yet, and I think, well, Star Wars had wrapped, but I don’t think Star Yeah, Star Wars was coming out around the same year, 1999 2000.

But anyway, yeah, he thought that his role in this was significant. And I think Tim Burton just cast him because he was over the moon happy to cast one of his childhood heroes, you know, in Oh, absolutely. He threw him in there. I mean, if Vincent Price had been alive You know, he would have cast him in a movie too.

Well, he did. He cast him in, uh, Edward Scissorhands. But, uh 

Clip: There is a town upstate, two days journey to the north in the Hudson Highlands. It is a place called Sleepy Hollow. Have you heard of it? I have not. An isolated farming community, mainly Dutch. Three persons have been murdered there all within a fortnight.

Each one found with the head lopped off. Lopped off? Clean as dandelion heads, apparently. You will take these experimentations of yours too, Sleepy Hollow. And there you will detect the murderer. 

Craig: Well, and the casting of him and Michael Goh, like, really kind of adds to the authenticity and credibility of the movie and, and of what Tim Burton was trying to do.

Right. You know, like, it’s, it’s obvious that he’s a legitimate fan. Of these types of movies. He loves them. He’s doing this because he loves it. And he wants to, I think that shows in, in the care that was taken and the thought that was put in again, I can’t say enough. I don’t think it’s a bad movie. I think it’s really a very, very well made movie.

Just not, just didn’t work for me. Um, the only other one that we haven’t mentioned, I think is the very first person that we see on screen is uncredited Martin Landau. 

Todd: He did it as a favor, I hear, to the cinematographer who directed those. I think it was the cinematographer of the movie who actually directed those initial scenes, um, not Tim Burton himself.

In fact, we might as well talk about this, too. Tim Burton wasn’t originally slated to direct this either. This movie came out in 99, but it started development in 93 with a script that had been written by Andrew Kevin Walker. Andrew Kevin Walker is the guy who wrote Seven, but even at this time, Seven hadn’t been picked up yet, but the script was floating around, and on the basis of reading that script and being impressed with it, some executives at Paramount got this screenplay, and because horror was getting kind of big right now.

I don’t know, like four years before here, this Bram Stoker’s Dracula came out. Scream had come out a few years before this as well. So horror was becoming a little more mainstream at this point. So I think they were looking for this kind of thing. And, uh, originally Kevin Yeager was going to direct it.

Kevin Yeager is an effects artist and he’s probably most famously known for doing, well, a number of things, but he, I love him because he did the Crypt Keeper. Puppet, and puppetry in the Tales from the Crypt series. But he’s done, you know, he did the effects for Starship Troopers, and lots of other things.

Loads of, uh, Freddy Krueger’s makeup, starting with the second one. So yeah, he was a veteran of the industry, but he never directed, and so he, this was gonna be his, uh, directorial, sort of, debut. But once things snowballed, I think the studio wanted to pull Tim Burton in it. Depending on what you read, either he got demoted, or he voluntarily said, step down because he was excited that Tim Burton was involved and just slipped back into the role of doing prosthetics and effects for the movie.

But it was originally just supposed to be like a low budget slasher movie and even the violence in the script had to eventually be toned down. They hired Tom Stoppard. And he’s not credited for it, but he did significant rewrites on the script to tone down the violence and ramp up the humor. And I’m surprised, like, I mean, it must have been pretty violent, because I, I, for a Tim Burton movie anyway, for a mainstream movie starring Johnny Depp and all these stars and directed by Tim Burton, I’m shocked at how much violence is in it.

Craig: It’s very violent, but they’re clever. So anytime the Headless Horseman. I guess we’re just kind of assuming that people know the general story. But anytime the Headless Horseman kills somebody, decapitates them, or whatever, stabs them through the gut to decapitate their unborn fetus, Um, anytime Anytime he does that, their wounds are immediately cauterized.

Yeah. So there’s no blood. So silly. Except when blood shoots out of like, uh, cadaver, I think, maybe, at one point, and a tree, a bleeding tree, at another point, directly onto Johnny Depp’s They, like, during the actual kills, there’s really no blood. 

Todd: Yeah, I guess that makes it better. I mean, certainly it makes it a little better, but 

Craig: Except, I mean, I guess when there is human on, like, non supernatural entity, if no supernatural entity is involved, there may be blood.

Like, at the end, a couple of those famous old guys die. Knock each other on the head. Oh, that’s true.

Todd: Or something like that. Oh boy. Still, when I started it, I was thinking, Oh, maybe this will be something in a year or two, I’ll show Kenji. And then I thought, no, this is not for children really. This is a. No, no, no, it is pretty dark. Yeah, it’s not, it doesn’t fit in the rest of our lineup so far with the, of Halloween as far as the, in between the worst witch and the Goosebumps.

TV, Goosebumps and Dark Night of the Scarecrow TV movie. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah, it is, it’s, it’s more violent than I expected. I don’t know, but there’s, there’s something about it, about the violence that, feels almost quaint. Like it, it feels it’s, it’s almost no worse than the violence that you would see in the old movies, the old hammer movies.

I, now I re I don’t know specifics, but I read that Burton wanted to use as few digital effects as possible, but of course they had to use some digital effects. Like this was the only. filmed version of this story where the headless horseman didn’t have to hide his head underneath the cape like they They computed it out.

They computed his head out But when you see as you often do somebody get decapitated and their head rolling on the ground It’s, it’s CGI. At least some of it. At least they’ve cleaned it up with CGI. I don’t know, it just, it didn’t feel scary to me. I definitely got the vibe. Like, this, this movie is a great vibe.

It’s a great Halloween vibe. Put it on in the background at a party, at a Halloween party.

Todd: You haven’t broken that one out in a while.

Craig: Because there’s great, like everything is a great visual, like if it was just on in the background, anytime you looked at it, it’s going to look great. It’s going to be a great vibe. And, and those rolling heads, they’re a great vibe, but they almost look more like a Halloween gag than. Something really scary.

You know what I’m saying? Yeah, I 

Todd: mean, 

Craig: they don’t 

Todd: look fake. I mean, the prosthetics are actually really quite good. I thought in several cases, very convincing. But, you’re right. It’s, I guess it’s kind of a gruesome, dark joke always when a head rolls towards someone, you know? Or the heads are rolling around on the ground.

Right, but 

Craig: you’re not seeing, like, viscera, like, coming out of their neck, you know? 

Todd: Yeah, it’s like they’re spurting blood and, you know, the look on their faces. Right, right, right. Yeah, it’s true. Right. Right. Right. Anyway, a lot of heads roll in this movie, that’s for sure. And for that reason, I wouldn’t show it to my kids.

Despite the fact there’s no blood squirting around, the idea of people getting their heads chopped off right and left, quite brutally, really, you know, in these very brutal fight scenes, you know, full of energy and, and I think rather convincing. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s a great fight scene with Ichabod. And the headless horseman, which again, doesn’t make any sense.

Like why is Ichabod suddenly jumping into a sword fight? Like it doesn’t, Brom is butch and, and is trying to prove himself or whatever. He’s a dummy for getting into a fight with a supernatural thing that you can’t kill. I mean, I guess he doesn’t know that despite the fact that it has no head. But that’s, that’s one, that’s one part that I really liked.

That was, that’s a great fight scene. It goes on for a long time and there are some surprises in it. I loved the part where they’re standing, looking through the bridge. Like the legend is the Hessian or the Headless Horseman or whatever, can’t cross this bridge. And so they’ve just fought him on one side of the bridge and run to the other side and they’re standing on the other side, looking through and they hear.

Footsteps, but they don’t see anything and in my mind. I’m thinking. Oh my gosh is is he like invisible now? Can he do that? But no, it’s it’s far more logical and practical He’s just walking across the roof and then he jumps down right in front of them But I thought that was a really effective scare.

Yeah, and then they have a big fight a huge choreographed long Like sword fight with different weapons and stuff. And in the end, Brum gets sliced in half. Oh God. It’s crazy. So there are a lot of great things in this movie like that. And because we have clearly already blown our opportunity to talk about this.

From start to finish. I feel like maybe we should just start talking about what are some of our favorite things about this movie 

Todd: Well, I’ll tell you all right laying aside the fact that Ichabod is like not really Ichabod that I know He’s investigating things and he’s trying to figure things out What I didn’t really care for was all the investigation in the movie because after a while I got so lost I didn’t I couldn’t keep track of These two families and he would see a clue in a book or a family tree or he would see some symbol and He’d get a knowing look on his face like he sorted something out, and I’d be like, What?

Did I forget something? Or am I just not following closely enough? Am I supposed to understand these connections that are being made? I just kind of gave up, and I think it turned out I didn’t, it didn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The movie will just eventually tell you, and it doesn’t, and that’s fine. 

Craig: To be fair, it all lines up.

Yeah. But it is very, it is very contrived. It is a very complicated web they weave, but everybody is connected in some way and they’ll explain it to you in great detail. When necessary. 

Todd: When necessary. There will be a nice monologue to put everything into place. 

Craig: Yeah. Even at the very end, when the villain, it, as it turns, okay, so the first half of the movie is the regular story basically, which of course.

There’s a headless horseman and people are scared of it, blah, blah, blah. And then Ichabod’s scared of it and it confronts him on a bridge. And that’s the end of the regular story in the movie. Then they figure out who he is. He’s some spirit that’s coming back from this tree. The tree of the dead, he, he bursts forth out of this tree supernaturally every night and just steals somebody’s head.

And then they figured out who it is. Now we know that it really is him. Then the second half becomes a mystery because somehow Johnny Depp figures out that it’s not really just the Headless Horseman, but somebody is controlling him because they stole his skull out of his grave, buried at the tree, and he just wants his own skull back.

And so that’s why he’s going around killing people. So somebody is controlling him. And when it’s revealed who the. who the villain is, that person then gives a huge monologue that connects all of the pieces.

Todd: Information that is deliberately withheld from you until she can give her monologue and her big reveal 

Craig: Well, one of the things that I was very confused by I did understand like all of the old men All of like the town old men who are in charge of everything all of them were connected and I got that there were like sex scandals and All kinds of things going on there.

I understood all that the one thing that I didn’t understand and i’m glad Because this was also another One of my favorite parts of the movie was there was a young family, a husband and a wife and a child, a young child. Like a baby, like a four year old, I guess, maybe, or tiny. And she was a midwife and we, we saw her early on in the movie.

She and her family popped back up later. And then there’s just one scene where the headless horseman just goes after them. Breaks into their house. Yeah. Yes. And, and the mom and the child. are in the back and he just like he fights the dad and then he cuts the dad’s head off and then the mom puts the kid under the floor and The headless horseman just like relentlessly comes for her and chops her head off, too.

Now Mind you, the kid is under the floor, but he can see everything that’s going on. I was Shocked. Yes, like I was I was shook This was so dark to me 

Todd: Her head falls to the floor rolls towards a gap in the floorboards to the point where he’s looking up into her dead eyes 

Craig: I, I was genuinely shocked. And then the horseman starts to walk out, but he stops in the doorframe and turns around, and goes back in and starts axing through the floor right above the baby.

And you don’t see 

Todd: it on camera, but he kills that baby too. Yeah, you, all you see is, it’s the outside and the horseman’s coming out of the house and he’s stuffing a third smaller head into his sack. Oh my 

Craig: god! I, uh, mad respect to Tim Burton for doing that, and I read that he said that’s one thing that he hates about horror movies.

Horror movies with kids, the kids are safe, and he didn’t want to do that, and man, that was dark. I was, I, I was legitimately shocked. 

Todd: It’s amazing it made it into the final cut because you could have easily cut that. Like, it was almost shot with the idea that it could possibly get cut. And it didn’t. It’s amazing.

Craig: Yeah, it, oh, absolutely. They could have easily cut with him just walking out before he stopped in the door frame. Okay, so that was a part that I loved. I’ll volley it to you. There are other parts I want to talk about, but what were your favorite parts? There’s 

Todd: the part where he goes out and the only, I can’t remember what this kid’s relationship was, this, this little boy.

that he ends up kind of partnering with. 

Craig: Okay, so his, his dad was the servant of one of the guys that got killed early on. He was Martin Landau’s servant. Oh, 

Todd: okay. 

Craig: And then he got killed too. Oh, 

Todd: okay. So it’s kind of a little orphan kid now. 

Craig: He’s a little orphan and, and Ichabod takes him on as a servant, basically adopts him.

Todd: Yeah, okay. So then he’s the only one who’s willing to go into the woods with him to seek down the headless horseman because he figures if he can find him, I don’t know what he’s hoping for, but he’s just gonna try to find him. So he wanders into the woods and it’s just great because it’s just all of these very typical horror movie things.

They come across an old hut in the woods and it looks exactly like a witch’s hut, a fact that they walk into and immediately start stating. It’s a 

Craig: cave. It is. 

Todd: It’s like a cave in a rock just in the middle of the woods, but not in the side of a mountain or anything, just. Sticking out of the ground and they go in and it’s so funny because you walk in and it’s a classic witches hut and immediately Ichabod is shaking and he holds his gun up and he’s 

Clip: like I should like to say that I make no assumptions about your occupation.

No your ways which which which which Nothing to me whatever you are 

Craig: Each to his own

Yeah, it was really funny. 

Todd: But anyway, I thought this sequence was genuinely scary, and I really liked this bit. I did too. It’s kind of thrown in there, but uh, it just gives him the necessary direction he needs. Because how in the world is he going to find this headless horseman just by walking straight into the woods?

So, the witch is able to chain herself to a table and conjure up a drink. this thing and I mean even this is pretty like again for kids especially pretty gruesome like oh yeah too scary chops the foot off of a of a bird and gets possessed by some spirit of something and leaps onto him and I don’t know what that was I mean it’s all kind of she 

Craig: she turns all ghosty faced and like Snakes come out of her eyes.

Her eyes disappear 

Todd: somehow. Anyway, loved that bit. Very Halloween. Very scary. Very fun. And she’s the one who tells him the directions, which is to go west on the Old trail to where the sun dies. Well, that’s West. And then, uh, to the, to the tree of the dead. Now, I guess they don’t explore these woods too much, right?

Cause you would think the locals would know all about the tree of the dead, but the tree of the dead is deep into the woods and it’s this giant, awesome looking tree that kind of looks a little bit like a. Man or, you know, something twisted sideways and it’s got all these roots at the bottom and when Ichabod walks up to it You can see the tree itself is bleeding and I just I liked this bit.

I thought yeah, I did too You know what’s gonna happen when they find the grave of this of this horseman? Is he gonna not be in the grave? Is he gonna be around the grave? Like Now they can come back to it, like, what’s the deal? Can they just, like, chop off the body or like, what, what’s gonna happen? And the fact, I think the conceit is that once the Headless Horseman was buried there, this Tree of the Dead kind of grew up around it and became a gateway to hell?

Craig: A gateway to another world is what, or another dimension or something, is what Ichabod Crane just figures out. 

Todd: On instinct, 

Craig: right? Yeah, yeah. But he’s right, because the, that’s the, like, gate, the, like, the tree opens up and the horse and the horseman just gallop out of it. And it looks cool, I like it, that’s fun.

That was awesome. I also think that it’s cool that, like, the horseman, every time he, He takes somebody’s head, he literally takes it, like he, he doesn’t leave it behind, but apparently, I don’t really understand this, but I guess, like, mortal flesh can’t cross over, because the heads are all just there at the gate.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And that’s, he finds them there, and then at the end It’s 

Todd: like a little head storage place, it’s like he’s squirreling them away like acorns inside the tree, it’s kind of 

Craig: Well, I actually thought it was that he was trying to take it with him, but he couldn’t. Oh! The gate cuts. stuck at the front and that kind of explains the very end, right?

Todd: Oh, I think I missed that bit, but you’re right. 

Craig: Yeah. I think he, he tries to take them, but he can’t. There’s no need to tease. We’re almost out of time at the very end. We find out who the bad guy who’s been controlling. The horseman is, and that person, I’ll still save it I guess, that person, he grabs and tries to take back with him, but that person gets, like, squashed, like blood just shoots out of the tree and their arm is just left hanging.

Todd: Sticking out. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense then. Okay, I wasn’t quite sure what that was supposed to mean, and now I know. 

Craig: Something else that I liked. was the throwbacks to the Disney cartoon. And there were several of them, and I loved that. At one point, Ichabod is going over the bridge, and the frogs underneath the bridge are 

Clip: going, Ichabod!

And 

Craig: that comes directly from the cartoon, the iconic scene, the scene that they would tease in the commercials every Halloween with the headless horseman rearing his horse up on its hind legs and him headless with a flaming jack o lantern held over his head. They recreate that scene in this and he throws it at Ichabod and it does exactly what the Disney cartoon does with the camera is just right in front of the flaming jack o lantern as it’s moving forward and then it hits Ichabod.

Oh God, I loved that. And in that scene, it turns out that that was not really the headless horseman. That was Brom playing a trick on Ichabod. And that is the reality of the story. Or at least that’s what’s strongly implied. Yeah. That Brom was just playing a trick on Ichabod, but Ichabod was so scared and humiliated that he left town and started a new life.

So I loved that. Didn’t love Christina Ricci. I love Christina Ricci. I am like one of the biggest fans of Christina Ricci. I love her. I didn’t care for her in this movie. Maybe it was just because she was cast opposite. He, I don’t know. It’s not, she just looked like a child to me. It 

Todd: was really hard to get over that.

Craig: So it was weird to think of her. It was weird to think of her in any kind of romantic context because she looked like a child. But 

Todd: you know, I was thinking about that and It’s not unusual for the time Either this was a time where men in their 20s were marrying 14 year olds, right? That’s true. That’s true So it wasn’t improper, but it just doesn’t feel right when you’re seeing it from a modern in a modern day movie 

Craig: well, and their I I felt like their romance was so forced like they barely shared any screen time and like they Immediately fell in love and like she had known him for five seconds before she gave him You A book that her mother had passed down to her?

Like 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That’s true. 

Todd: Whatever. But she’s also more of a plot device, I think, than anything else. True. Because there’s constantly suspicion being cast back and forth as to whether or not she might have something to do with what’s going on. And so, you know, there’s sort of that aspect to it as well. I don’t know.

I didn’t mind her in this movie. I just didn’t think she was that great. Just like, I thought Johnny Depp was a bit uneven and in all this, or maybe just his character was. I just loved seeing all the old, older actors. It was 

Craig: just, it was so 

Todd: great. 

Craig: Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe we’ll think of more things to talk about, but I’m just going to go ahead and say, I think that you should 100 percent watch this movie.

Because I think that you listener might like it more than I did. It is a good movie. All of these people in it are, you know, there are, there are Oscar winners in it. There are Oscar nominees in it. These are established, respectable. Actors and for a good reason and and Tim Burton is great just to see all of these old guys 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: you’ve seen in a million things, but then also to see Really great set work.

It’s it’s it’s so difficult for me because I really have no Specific legitimate complaints. It just didn’t work for me for whatever reason but you should 100 percent watch it and then let us know what you think Cause I am genuinely curious. I don’t hear people talking about this movie. It’s not like I think it’s some kind of classic or even like a cult thing.

Yeah. Um, it, it seems to me like it kind of came and went. It’s true. So I don’t know. If you’re a big fan, please, please just tell me what, why I’m wrong. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s funny that you should mention that actually, because come to think of it, I’ve always been aware of this movie. And I think in my mind, this movie was a big deal when it came out.

And maybe it was, it certainly grossed a lot. Like 200 and some million over the course of the year, plus who knows what else. But at the same time But if I really think about it, I haven’t heard or seen much of it since. I mean, there’s a lot of movies from this era that we haven’t. I mean, No. Does anybody talk about Bram Stoker’s Dracula anymore?

Craig: Nerds like me do, but I don’t really hear a lot of talk about this one. And, this would be, you know, we have been in the Thick of the time of year where streaming services and cable services are going out of their way to provide horror and specifically Halloween content. This seems like this would be ideal.

Yes. I haven’t seen it. I 

Todd: haven’t either. It was hard to find. You’re right. So, uh, seek it out wherever you can. Definitely watch it. Definitely. That’s our hot take on it. Anyway, I guess I’m, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t really like particularly love it, but I certainly didn’t hate it. It just wasn’t, it wasn’t even what I remembered it being, to be quite frank with you.

And I’m not quite sure why. So, but, but still dripping with Halloween atmosphere. 

Craig: Oh yeah. I love that stuff. Like, Jack o lanterns. The very, very first scene has a great. Big scarecrow with a jack o lantern head and I read that it was the Scarecrow from the nightmare before christmas. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s exactly that one.

It’s cool. 

Craig: And there’s a big halloween party It’s a great halloween party 

Todd: Like you said, I encourage our listeners to respond and let us know what they think of this movie and give us some perspectives that maybe we lack here. The way you can do that, to let us know, is just to go to our website, ChainsawHorror.

com. We have all of our episodes up there, including this one. You can leave a comment on it, or of course, you can just search for our podcast anywhere. Two guys and a chainsaw podcast is what we’ll send you to any one of our places. Of course, all of the podcast hosting services, our YouTube channel has a comment section on it as well.

And of course, I just mentioned our patrons page, uh, patreon. com slash chainsaw podcast. If you are at all, a member of our patrons, you’re going to be having a lot of fun with us this Halloween because we have a few mini shows that we’ve been posting as supplements to what we’ve been doing. I’m really looking forward actually to talking about this cartoon and the story behind it as well.

So get in on that action, patreon. com slash chainsaw. podcast. There’s no better time than now. Until next time, I’m Todd and I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw

With its catchy Broadway-style songs, all-star cast (including Tim Curry as the Grand Wizard), and super-cheesy 80’s green screen special effects, this family-friendly flick follows the mishaps of Mildred (Fairuza Balk) as she clumsily bumbles her way through witch school – but ultimately saves the day in the end, of course.

We also talk about the links between this film (based on a bestselling children’s book series) and the Harry Potter franchise, and Craig and Kristen sing a duet or two. It’s an episode for the whole family. Enjoy!

Episode 211, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: And joining us today is longtime friend of the podcast and personal friend of mine. This is Craig’s sister, Kristen. Say hello to the people, Kristen. 

Kristen: Hello, people, and happy spooky season! Yeee! Halloween! 

Todd: We’ve had you on here several times before.

Let’s see, what have we all talked about? We’ve talked about the world ending movie, the home invasion one.

Kristen: Home invasions, yes. Did I do the Monster Squad? I think I did the Monster Squad. Did you? Yeah. I’m pretty sure. 

Todd: We, we brought you in for a couple of, at least a couple that you and Craig used to watch incessantly growing up.

And because today’s episode is the long requested by many, many of our listeners over the course of probably every year, I think we’ve done this podcast practically during Halloween season, we’re doing the worst witch, uh, TV show special from 1986. You and Craig, I understand watched this a lot growing up and that’s why we’ve got you on.

Thank you. 

Kristen: Yes, probably millions of times. 

Todd: Wow. I’m not 

Kristen: even exaggerating. 

Todd: Millions of times. Well, twice 

Kristen: already in the last month. 

Todd: It’s even continuing into adulthood. I gotta admit to you guys, I’ve never seen this or heard of it before in my life. 

Craig: What now I can understand maybe not seeing it, but I can’t understand that even knowing about it.

I mean, I heard, I 

Todd: knew about it when we started doing this podcast. And every time we asked for a Halloween possibilities, somebody comes out of the woodwork. If not a half a dozen people are like, are you going to do the worst witch? I just, I just remember that so much from my childhood. It’s such a goofy movie.

And I’m like, what is that? And I had to look it up. 

Kristen: I’m so happy to hear that people have requested this because I kept telling Craig, what in the world would we do? Talk about, this is not a horror movie, only an hour long. I had such anxiety about it that I had nightmares last night. I dreamt that we were all together and that Todd was being really passive aggressive the whole time.

And you just, you kept bringing out buckets of Halloween candy. Like, I really didn’t want to get this out. I really need this for tomorrow. But you just didn’t know what else to do. So I think my subconscious was worried that this would go terribly wrong. 

Todd: I want to see that movie. This 

Kristen: No, 

Todd: I just Seriously, like, people request it all the time, and I just I guess it aired on HBO?

It was It was done in 86, but it was a British Production, or at least it was produced in Britain. And it did show at least a little bit on some television over there, but then immediately, I think it was commissioned for HBO. And so HBO was showing it every year up until the mid 90s. Yeah. And the Disney Channel as well, I think.

Did you see it? Would you guys have seen it on HBO or the Disney Channel? Or where would you guys have seen it?