2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

We tackle Abel Ferrara’s 1979 cult shocker The Driller Killer, a film Todd has wanted to cover for years and one Craig went in nearly blind on.

We talk about its infamous cover art and how it helped spark the UK “video nasties” panic, then dig into the movie’s grimy New York atmosphere, disjointed character-study structure, and aggressive sound design—including the repeated band-rehearsal sequences and heavy use of music. We break down Reno’s unraveling as financial pressure, an unexplained church encounter, and surreal flashes build toward a sudden, graphic drill-fueled rampage, along with moments of dark humor and ambiguity. We also discuss the added footage in the longer cut and the unsettling, open-ended finale.

Episode 478, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: Well, this week was my turn to pick, and I took full advantage of that by picking a movie I knew Craig probably would never have picked on his own. You know me, I like to dig into the, the oldies and the kind of independent obscure ones.

This one was one I’ve been wanting to do forever. Mm-hmm. In fact, I think it’s on that hard drive that I gave you way back when, 10 years ago. Oh, 

Craig: that’s funny. 

Todd: It’s a movie that really struck me when I was a kid walking around the video store shelves because, I mean, I think this was… It definitely wasn’t a Blockbuster.

You know, this was one of our independent video stores that had covers that were a little creepier sometimes than others that just felt sleazy and shady, and I could never possibly imagine my parents renting for me. Uh, this is where I saw, like, the cover for, like, I Spit On Your Grave, and that one we did, uh, The Deadly Spawn.

It’s, like, super gory. And this cover, the cover of it was just a picture. It was a close-up of a guy’s head, and he’s screaming, and there’s a drill going into his forehead and blood just spilling out over half of his face, and it’s called The Driller Killer. When I saw this, I thought, “My God, that looks like the most brutal, scary movie you could possibly watch.”

It, it turned my stomach just seeing the cover of it. So it’s one of those images that burned into me for a long time, and it wasn’t until just now as I was doing research for this movie that I realized that this one is basically… One of the members of the British Film Board or whatever said that this movie pretty much single-handedly started the whole Video Act of 1983 that, or 1984, I think, that, that went off in Britain and started the video nasties list and started the censorship of a lot of these horror films on video.

Not because of the movie itself, but because the cover was so gross and provocative that it kicked off all that legislation. So it’s got a bit of a history, and I was really happy to see it this time, and I think we’re gonna have a bit to talk about. Yeah. Craig, had, like, had you heard of this before or seen it?

Craig: I don’t know. I mean, the title is catchy. When I heard Driller Killer, the first thing I thought of was Slumber Party Massacre. Is that the one with the guy with the drill? 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And I, and I mean, I knew that was Slumber Party Massacre, but then I was thinking, like- And, and maybe it’s just because you’ve mentioned it so many times, I was like, “Are we sure we haven’t done this already?”

Right. But when I, when I looked it up just to see… ‘Cause I, I, I also knew nothing about it, so I didn’t know if it was… I assumed it was older, but I was assuming probably ’80s. That’s usually your go-to. So when I saw it was 1979, I was like, “Well, I don’t know. It could be interesting.” And it is interesting. No, I had never heard of it.

I don’t think I knew anything at all about it, which is, I think, maybe the way to go. Like- Yeah … if you’re interested in seeing it, because it’s kind of at least as much an experience as it is a movie, and if you know what to expect going in, I don’t know if it’ll be the same kind of experience. 

Todd: Yeah. I can see what you’re saying.

It’s another one of those sort of like a character study that we’ve been doing, in a way, but it’s also feels like, ah, man, what did we just recently do that was along the same vein? And, and we talked about Basket Case as well. These movies that take place in a gritty New York City and just show the- 

Craig: Right, like Maniac Cop, was 

Todd: it?

Maniac. Or- Yeah, that was it. Mani- 

Craig: Maniac. Maniac, 

Todd: yeah. Mm-hmm. They just show this old 1970s version of, of New York City that doesn’t really exist anymore, where people are just living these almost slum lives, you know? Trying to make it work. Artists, in this case. And I really thought that this movie did a fantastic job with atmos- The director i- is also s- the star, Abel Ferrara.

Mm-hmm. And he frequently works with a writer named Nicholas St. John, and this was one of his earlier movies, but he has gone on to do some fairly dec- big, big things with big m- big name actors. He did, uh, King of New York in 1990. That, uh, starred, well, Christopher Walken and David Caruso, Laurence Fishburne’s in that.

Uh, Wesley Snipes. I never saw that movie. I remember seeing it on the shelves. Uh, y- I don’t think it was huge, but I think he’s also close personal friends with Michael Mann, and the two have helped each other out in their, in their filmmaking stuff. He did a r- the second remake of The Body Snatchers also in the ’90s, which another one I haven’t seen, but, uh, g- I remember seeing it on the shelves as well.

It’s got kind of a distinctive cover art. That one stars Meg Tilly, and you got, you know, a lot of, Harley Erme’s in there, and Forest Whitaker and, and a bunch of folks. So aside from those bigger movies and some straight to video stuff, he’s done, oh, some episodes of TV series like back in the day, Miami Vice and whatnot.

So, like, the director is known, I guess, for doing, for really setting his stuff in New York City and showing the grittier, kinda darker side of, of that. And like I said, I really, really enjoyed that aspect of this movie, and like you said, I think that’s kind of part of what makes it such an experience.

Craig: Yeah, that’s true. I… For some reason, his name sounded familiar to me, and it still does, but I don’t- I, I still haven’t really figured out why, but I looked into him too, and very early in his career he did porn, but- 

Todd: Didn’t. At this time, right? At 

Craig: this time. That’s a, that’s a good point. 

Todd: I 

Craig: told Alan after I was done watching it that it reminded me of watching performance art.

Like- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: it’s not traditional, and it… I don’t know. I’m not a huge fan of performance art, to be honest with you. It, uh, it always feels a little bit self-indulgent and like you’re intentionally trying to… N- not you, but the performers are somehow intentionally trying to provoke something in the audience, and they’re trying really hard and- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: and, and that, that’s not to say just because I’m not a fan of it doesn’t mean it’s not a legitimate art form. And there are people who, you know, really are into that kinda thing. But this movie, I mean, there, technically speaking, there is a linear plot, but I felt like it was more kinda like you said, kind of a character study, but I don’t know.

It was also a vibe. Like- Yeah. 

Todd: You’re right … 

Craig: w- when I say that it has a mostly linear plot, it does, but it’s also really disjointed, and it… I was constantly like, “Wait, what? When are we?” 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Because, uh, and I’m getting ahead of myself, but there’s one part in particular where this was particularly glaring to me, where the main characters, who are a throuple, go to a concert.

Well, they go to see a band play at a club, and they’re there for a while, but it seems like they’re seemingly also in different places- 

Todd: Right … 

Craig: at the same time. Like 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: I don’t know what’s going on. And then there are other weird things about, like the, that band that I just mentioned moves into the throuple’s building and rehearses a lot.

And there is so much footage- … of this band just playing for a long time. Yeah. And not only are they playing, but they’re rehearsing. So they just keep playing the same parts of the same songs over and over again for long. Like, we, we watch it for a long time. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Multiple times. So anyway, it was just a little bit jarring to me in some ways.

It’s one of those things where I like, I feel like I, I get it. I, I get that you were kind of going for an artsy, artistic kind of thing here. I’m gonna be hesitant to be critical ’cause I think the things that I would be critical would be more about stylistic choices than execution. I think the execution is fine.

I don’t know. I’ll be interested to hear what you thought. 

Todd: Were you… I gotta ask, were you bored by those sequences? 

Craig: Like I said, it’s a vibe. Like, I mean, it’s loud music. First of all, the very first thing that you see on screen is a text that says, “This film should be played loud.” 

Todd: Yeah. And 

Craig: I- 

Todd: That was interesting

Craig: I was at home alone, and honestly, for the first time in a bazillion years I had thought, “Oh, I’m home alone.” You know, there’s no other TVs going on in the house or whatever. I’ll just… I won’t put in earbuds, I’ll just listen to it through the speakers of my laptop. And then the very first thing I saw was, “This film should be played loud.”

So I paused it and got my earbuds out- … put them in. And, and that is part of the experience because there’s this loud, raucous music in, in lots of it, but there’s also a really strange and intense soundtrack in the background a lot, like a lot of synthesizers and stuff. Yeah. And so the sound experience was part of it.

So in those band scenes, no, I wasn’t really bored because even though they were long, it was high energy. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it was loud. Not, you know, I, I, I wouldn’t say, “Oh, I loved that music. It was so good, I’m gonna run out and buy it.” But it was upbeat, you know? 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Music. Uh, I didn’t dislike it, so no, I wasn’t bored.

I just… I, I, I felt like I didn’t need that much of it. Like- 

Todd: Gotcha. 

Craig: Yeah … I, I get it. I don’t need this much. 

Todd: I felt like, and, and I think the movie helped with the, the music helped with this a lot. I felt sometimes like I was experiencing the feelings of being high while watching this movie. The disjointedness of it, the droning music going on, all of the lights flashing and the colors and- Yeah

and just the images that, that s- swing around. And it wasn’t an unpleasant experience. 

Craig: No. 

Todd: I was vibing with it. I really went with it, and that surprised me because we have seen movies that do this, at almost this very same thing, like from the same era where they’re, there’s some punk band playing or some rock band playing, and you feel like just to f- just to kill time they’re just gonna include this whole performance of this band, or maybe this band is trying to promote themselves or something.

You know, worked out a deal with the director. And in this case, it just felt like such a part of the whole experience and part of the movie that I was into it. And I have to say, I read in the trivia that it said that this director, Abel Ferrara, rarely uses music in his films. Hmm. And this is a glaring exception.

There is so much music in this, and I think it is really skillfully edited and layered together, and juxtaposed with other scenes, and almost seamlessly. Even in p- parts where it’s jarring, you can tell it’s very intentional. I really, really liked the soundtrack of the, of this movie. I mean, again, it wasn’t like the music was particularly distinctive, like you said, like it’s gonna win any awards or anything.

Mm-hmm. But the way that it went with the images and the way that it conjured up the emotions and it created that vibe- I was really impressed. I was really impressed. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And, and it kicks off with that music that you mentioned that reminded me a bit of, like, the Phantasm music in a way. It was very… It was, like, a heavy organ and creepy, and we’re in a church for some reason, and there’s a nun who points to this man in the front pew, this old guy.

And it- all we kinda get from her is that, “Well, he had your number and he, he knew who you were,” but we don’t know who he is. And so this man s- named Reno, this young guy, and he’s accompanied by Carol at this point- Mm … which is, like, his girlfriend, kind of his live-in girlfriend. One of two, I guess. And, uh, he, he c- he slowly creeps up to this man, and things are shot with sort of that wide-angle lens, but up close, so it gives you this kind of otherworldly feeling like Bob Clark likes to do.

And a lot of this is shot handheld, and it’s really skillful handheld too, I think. Yeah, as he goes up to this man, this man’s just kinda staring forward and, and the music kind of crescendos, and he kind of looks like he wants to touch this guy’s hand, and then the old man grabs his hand instead, and the dude runs off scared.

Tears out of there with Carol, and the nun is just standing there staring back at them, just says to the air, “I don’t understand. He had your name and your number.” And that’s it. Like, I’m not exactly sure who this guy was supposed to be. 

Craig: I don’t think the movie is particularly interested in answering all of the questions that it poses.

Like- 

Todd: Right … 

Craig: I, I think that there’s some suggestion later that this guy is his dad. 

Todd: Yeah, maybe. 

Craig: But why and what their backstory is. 

Todd: Yeah, and how this set off events. We don’t really know, yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, and, and, and, like you said, they’re in a church for some reason. I, I, I feel like we might be saying that a lot, for some reason.

Right. Like, for, for reasons that are not going to be explained. You know, they, they stop at a club and pick up another weird blonde for some reason- Mm-hmm … who then the next day wants to drill a new hole in the front door for some reason. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: And then he’s, he’s, he’s painting a giant buffalo on the wall for some reason.

Sure seems like it was on the wall. I mean, I don’t know what they’re gonna do. I don’t know how they’re gonna tear that off there and- Yeah … sell it later. Their whole… Yeah, you, yeah, you don’t find this out until later, but their whole financial plan is that they’re gonna sell this giant painting of a buffalo.

And as soon as I heard that that was the plan, I was like, “How?” Like, is the gallery gonna come in and take out that wall? Right? 

Todd: Like, I don’t- Was it- Was it supposed to be just a giant canvas? It sure looked like a wall to me. I don’t know 

Craig: It… I think it was just a wall. Plus, I, I think that it, it’s also implied that he actually is, uh, at least locally, a reputable artist who has sold to this gallery or through this dealer before.

A- and, and there are some interesting pieces hanging around, um, the apartment. They have a, a pretty… At times it looks gritty, and at times it looks really nice. 

Todd: Yeah. That was crazy. It was like they cleaned it up real well when the art dealer came by to visit much later in the movie. I was like, “Oh, that, that apartment looks pretty good all of a sudden.”

Uh-huh. Otherwise, they’re, like, setting up picnics on the floor ’cause it almost seems like they have no furniture. 

Craig: Yeah. Gosh, I don’t know. I mean, it’s… ’cause, you know, there are other interesting pieces on the wall, whatever, but this painting of a buffalo isn’t even, like… It looks like a mural that you would find on a wall in a high school.

Like, it, it’s- Yeah. 

Todd: It’s not fantastic … 

Craig: it’s nothing. No. But everybody thinks it’s great except eventually the art dealer, but- 

Todd: Right … 

Craig: I don’t know. It’s, it’s all for some reason. They are apparently a threesome, a throuple, I guess- 

Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: for some reason, which i- is fine and cool. I, I, I actually kind of appreciate that the movie doesn’t define that.

Like- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: yeah, they all, they all live together and they’re in a relationship. Like 

Todd: They don’t bother to define it, and they don’t make a big deal out of it either. It’s just all very matter-of-fact, and it, it’s not even that essential to the plot really. Not 

Craig: really. 

Todd: And, and which, which… Like, I agree with you.

I tho- I th- I liked it. I thought that was pretty nice. It’s also very ’70s. This was the time. 

Craig: Yeah. Oh, yeah, it’s very love the one you’re with, sure. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. And, and there… We saw a version that had five minutes of extra footage in it. When this was, uh, theatrically released, it was five minutes shorter. And back in the early 2000s, I think Arrow Video put together the r- the remaster and, uh, discovered an extra five minutes and talked to the director.

And he said, “Yeah, this was stuff I took out before, but you can put it back in if you want.” And so we have some extra footage in here that gives a little bit more between them, including a lesbian shower scene- 

Craig: Mm … 

Todd: between those two girls, which wasn’t in the original. But I appreciate it. I’m glad they put that bit back.

Craig: I, I mean, it was leering, but I mean- 

Todd: Leering and wet … not, 

Craig: I, 

Todd: I- Not that hot really- Yeah … was it? It just kinda… 

Craig: I… Well, I, I, I don’t know. I wouldn’t say, I wouldn’t say distasteful. It was just- 

Todd: No … 

Craig: two women kind of rubbing their bodies together for a few minutes. 

Todd: Wet. That’s why- Water splashing all 

Craig: over. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Uh, yeah.

So they’re… Okay, so it’s, it’s Reno, and I don’t know, he’s an interesting looking guy. I, I, I wouldn’t personally describe him as being good-looking. As I… You know, he’s tall and lean. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Um, but he’s got a, kind of an interesting face. His face Is very a- sharp and angular, and s- a lot of the times he looks kind of very distant and flat.

Like, you can’t read what’s going on inside his head at all- Right … if there is anything going on inside his head. And then alternately he’ll get really intense sometimes and, and scary, I guess. 

Todd: Yeah. And that kinda works for this because I feel like it was very believable, this guy, because you’re right, you could never get a read on him from the beginning.

And so he could really take this almost anywhere and it would make sense, and he did seem just a, just a little, little close to the edge- Mm-hmm … anywhere. E- either he’s just very introverted, or he’s just very up in his own head, or he is just, uh, very, very close to going crazy, and, uh, you can imagine w- where, where he actually is ’cause this is a horror movie.

He goes nuts over the phone bill, you know? I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re talking about how they’re, like you said earlier, they’re, they’re almost destitute. They’re waiting for his painting to get done so they can sell it as promised to this art dealer who’s gonna buy a, spend a bunch of money, who apparently has already loaned the, him or given him a bunch of cash to help float him by, and, uh, refuses to give him any more.

So, you know, they’re, they’re going over the phone bill, the electric bill. 

Clip: Holy Christ, man. What is this? What’d they do, send us the bill of Madison Square Garden? What, are they kidding me, man? How the hell are we supposed to pay this bill, man? What is it, for three months? That’s the bill for one month.

Christ, what do we got here? A refrigerator, a couple of lights. The tele- oh man, the telephone. Oh, no. Holy… Houston, Texas? And another. LA. Look at this. LA $1.50, LA 2.75, LA 7.50, man. Yeah, they’re mine. 

Todd: Carol says, “It looks like the telephone’s gonna get cut off in a month if we don’t pay it,” so he just grabs the phone and just chucks it out the window.

You know, this all kinda happens in the first 10 minutes, so we see he’s, he’s one of these guys who’s a, a little unpredictable and will sometimes go from zero to 100 in, in no time, but can be very intense and concentrate, you know, when he’s, when he’s doing his paintings and when he’s listening to the band and when he’s just sitting around staring off into space.

So you never know. But yeah, it’s a lot of quick cuts, close-up on the eyes. There’s, there’s a lot of shots here early on of him with the street… I w- I’ll just call them, for lack of a better term, the homeless people of, of New York, the street bums or whatever, the stereotypical street bums really, with the wine in a paper bag and laying around on the street.

Craig: Yeah, I was hoping to read about that because those didn’t look like actors to me. At the same time, they were so stereotypical that I kind of had a hard time Believing that he was just out getting footage of, of actual homeless people? I- Right … did you read anything about that? No. I could- I, I couldn’t tell.

Todd: I couldn’t. I, I mean, I think at least a couple of them are definitely actors, especially the guy towards the end- Oh, sure … who he has a conversation with. But yeah, you’re right, it does feel like there’s a lot of gonzo footage happening here. I mean, this is clearly a low-budget movie. There’s no way he probably got permits for half of this, so he’s probably doing a lot of shooting on the street, and you’re right, some of these shots did look like they were just random people on the street.

But yeah, it, it, a lot of the movie feels that way actually. It’s very gonzo. It feels like you’re in the midst of it. 

Craig: Yeah, and then it also, for some reason after he sees all those guys on the street, there’s a weird, like, trippy scene where it cuts between who I presume is supposed to be his dad, but younger, and then it cuts to the old man, and then to a drill.

And I think it ends up being a dream, but there are- 

Todd: Yeah. It’s a recurring dream … 

Craig: th- this happens, uh, I don’t remember if it even happened at this point, but he, he does kind of just have these flashes periodically of him just covered in blood, and it’s, it’s shot in red light too, so I mean, it’s just the entire screen is awash in red, and he’s covered in blood, and, like, his eyes are wide, and blood is splashing into his face.

And again, we… Are, are we ever given any context for that? Do we know why he has these psychotic tendencies? I don’t feel like it’s ever explained. 

Todd: I don’t think so either. He just kinda seems like this troubled guy and, and I think, again, for some reason this dad thing set him off. If this really was his dad, uh, you know, the, the whole movie starts off with that old man, and this old man is, is one of the images in this flash that he gets of these dream.

It is very dreamlike in the sense that none of it really makes a lot of sense and it cuts from one wild thing to another. Even his girlfriend, Carol, turning, turns around and it looks like her eyes have been poked out or gouged out or something. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. 

Todd: And, and you know, it seems like he’s, like, drilling and you- we don’t see it, ’cause it’s off-screen, but you hear the sounds and you see the stuff splashing on his face.

But the man hasn’t even bought a drill yet at this point. 

Craig: No, they do have a drill be- Oh, they’ve got 

Todd: a drill … they established because that- You’re right. You’re right … 

Craig: that dumb blonde wanted a new hole drilled in the- 

Todd: That’s true. He did I don’t 

Craig: know 

Todd: But at this point I don’t think he’s even seen the ad on television yet.

Oh, what he does see from the water tower on the top of the building, he’s up there I think just looking around. It seems like maybe something he does. He’s got some binoculars up there. 

Craig: I guess. 

Todd: And he’s looking down, and as he’s looking down at the park, some guy comes over and stabs a dude. Stabs a dude in the middle of the park, runs off And he sees the cops come and everybody kind of take him away, and it, and I think this just, something clicks in him at this point as well.

Like, it’s like things start to come together for him. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: It’s the most exciting thing that’s happened in the movie so far, and we’re already 18 minutes in. 

Craig: Yeah, the beginning felt long. A lot was happening. Like, there was al- things were always happening- Yeah … but it just- 

Todd: For sure … 

Craig: at this point in the movie I felt like I had been watching it for at least a half an hour and, anyway.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But the stuff with the water tower, I, you know, it’s, it’s strange because it’s happened. We see him see this happen. We see him get kind of a big-eyed look on his face, but it’s never referenced again. And that whole flashing thing with the dad and the old man, and then even the d- the drill and the blood and all of that suggests a backstory- 

Todd: Yeah

Craig: but it’s a backstory that we never get. 

Todd: I wonder if it’s more of, like, a emotional backstory, you know what I mean? Like, it’s just current images referencing a state of his emotions that he’s kinda going through that he’s had in the past or that he’s feeling right now, you know? That was my sense, because some of this is almost flash forward in a way.

Premonition maybe. I don’t know. It’s definitely never explained. W- the next thing that happens is he’s, he’s painting and the woman’s like, “When are you gonna finish this? When are you gonna… It looks done. It looks done to me.” And he turns around and goes, “What do you know about painting?” 

Clip: Tell me what you know about painting.

You don’t know nothing about painting. You know what you know about? You know about how to bitch, and how to eat, and how to bitch, and how to shit, and how to bitch, but you don’t know nothing about painting. So don’t tell me when this is gonna be done. I’ll tell you when it’s gonna be done. And about the money, man, I don’t wanna hear about that money, all right?

‘Cause that’s all you talk about, that’s all the other one talks about, that’s all I hear from that vanguard dealer uptown, and I don’t wanna hear it ’cause the sound of that word, man, drives me crazy. 

Todd: And he goes on this extended, like, two and a half minute rant to her. It’s 

Craig: long. 

Todd: And this is another scene that was, uh, added in.

This wasn’t in the original theatrical release, but this was in the- 

Craig: Really? 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Wow. This, this felt like a pivotal moment of the film to me. 

Todd: I agree. I think it belonged in there, honestly. But yeah, it’s a long monologue and he’s really snapping. I mean, it really just shows the pressure that they’re under and how he’s kind of getting impatient with her.

And she’s being pretty good about it all, ’cause she’s kinda supporting him w- the way that she can. You know, she doesn’t have a lot to say and do, but, uh, she’s there. 

Craig: Well, she’s literally… I, I- She, I mean, she, I don’t, I, I don’t think she works. Carol, by the way, w- well, what I was getting at was she’s kind of supporting him, but she’s not really supporting him.

It’s her ex-husband- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: is supporting her. He’s paying alimony and even sending her extra money on the side because he wants her back and, and she’s handing all that money over to him. The- 

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: It’s a really interesting dynamic because- You know, he’s an artist. I can see, you know, how women might find him attractive.

I don’t, but I, I could see how women might. And, you know, artists are sexy, I, I get that. Mm. But she seems to have come from a more conservative life and is, is… She almost seems a little out of place here. Right. She seems a little bit older. She seems a little bit older than the rest of them. She dresses a little bit more conservatively, and I, you know, I don’t mean conservative, I just mean she’s not, you know, like a hip, a rock…

She’s not wearing, I don’t know. 

Todd: Well, she’s not Pam. 

Craig: She seems a little- 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, she’s not Pam. And it seems like Carol and Reno are the main couple, and Pam is almost kinda like her pet. 

Todd: Yeah. She really is. 

Craig: I mean, th- they’re all very much in this together, but it really almost seems like Pam is kind of Carol’s pet, and Pam is so dumb and, like, she’s just out of it most of the time.

Yeah. I, I assume she’s supposed to be on drugs. 

Todd: I assume. 

Craig: But at one point, at one point when they don’t have… This is right after the big blowup and they don’t have any money. The two women are just sitting at home watching TV, and Pam’s complaining she wants to go out, and Carol’s like, “We can’t, we don’t have any money.”

And Pam says, “We don’t have any drugs. We don’t have any money. We don’t have any dope. I can’t take it anymore.” And this, this actress is terrible. Oh, 

Todd: God, she is. 

Craig: She’s so, so bad. 

Todd: Well, apparently she was a stripper that Abel Ferrara, the director, had found and, and got to act in the movie, and she had to use her stripper name because she’s not SAG.

I guess this was a SAG production, but she’s not SAG- Wow … and so she had to use her, her stripper name of Baybi Day. B-A-Y-B-I. Like a cross between Bambi or Barbie and Baby. 

Craig: The other thing about her is, okay, so I, I read, and I’m sure you did too, this movie was shot over the course of at least a year, if not two years.

Pam’s appearance changes drastically- … throughout the course of the movie. It 

Todd: really 

Craig: does. Several times. 

Todd: It really does. 

Craig: Like, early in the movie, she has kind of a short blonde bob, I feel like, or, or shorter hair, and then later she’s got, like, a natural brunette, like, mullet kinda thing going on. And she’s a pretty girl, but when you change her appearance s- I mean, it’s just her hair, I guess, really, but when it’s such a significant change in her hair- There were times I’m like, “Who is this?”

Todd: Yeah, I know. I was wondering if it was the same person myself. It, it’s funny because I was thinking also of, of David Lynch, of Eraserhead, which, of which this movie actually has a bit in common with, I thought. 

Craig: It, yeah, it does. 

Todd: It, it really does capture some of that same vibe, and some of the same character dynamics are really there.

You know, it, the same deal with David Lynch’s movie was shot over the course of several years, and they took pains to try to keep things consistent even though they didn’t al- they weren’t always successful with the appearance there. This, this, this way, they didn’t even try really, did he? Not too hard.

Craig: Which is fine because it’s really not even out of keeping with the style of the rest of it. Like, it- 

Todd: No … it 

Craig: is jarring. 

Todd: You could just imagine this girl just decided to change her hairstyle over the weekend, honestly, you know, and then flipped it back somehow. I just like- 

Craig: Right … 

Todd: she’s just out of it. She’s out to lunch.

She’s all over the place. She’s bouncing between this, this apartment and this band. So like you said earlier, they picked her up from this club where she was watching this band plays, and she was friends of this band. And I guess that she had offered or suggested this apartment building to the band. They were looking for a new place to live and to practice.

And so the landlord’s a character in this as well. And so the landlord brings the band in, and the band takes the apartment next door to them or two doors down. Who knows? Because this band would be disturbing every single person in this apartment complex, however big it is. And, uh, it’s getting to Reno as well.

It’s 2:00 in the morning. He’s painting. Those guys are playing. Reno’s irritated. So then he runs out into the street and just wakes up some derelict on the street and just starts harassing him. Sees some people run by. I don’t, I don’t know what all, any of this was all about. Yeah. Then we get our boobs and nipples from the girls showering and kissing, and we move on to the next thing.

Craig: Yeah. The, the only thing, it’s not as random because, excuse me, the whole homeless person thing, because he’s seems to be fascinated with them for some reason. Sure. Because we see him sketching them. 

Todd: Chatting with them, yeah. 

Craig: And then when he’s, when he’s frustrated with all the, the loud music, I, I don’t know, at some point he’s watching TV and he sees a commercial or, like, an infomercial for a PortaPack- Mm-hmm

which is just like a, a battery belt. And on the commercial they’re like, “It’s good for any appliances.” Uh- Tool … 

Todd: a drill. A 

Craig: drill. Yeah. And again, and his eyes get really big. 

Todd: It’s interesting, right? It’s like he put these two things together. “Ooh, murder in the park. Ooh, I can make my drill portable.” Yeah. “

Craig: Ooh, I’m fa- fantasizing about getting blood splashed all over my face.”

Right. And that’s, yeah, and it does. It seems like he, it’s like he’s waking this guy up. It seems like he’s going to kill him. The only reason that he doesn’t is because- There’s another… Something else is going on on the street that might draw attention 

Todd: Yeah 

Craig: Like there might be cops around or whatever, and so he lets that guy go 

Todd: Also, he’s got nothing on him at this point.

He doesn’t have the Porto-Pak yet. This is interesting. This was a different time, you know. This was before portable tools with battery packs in them. You know, batteries weren’t as sophisticated. Just the… I thought it was really cool, this notion that you could have this big belt that you would have to put on, which looks like it’s just got a string of batteries in sequence.

You’d probably run that drill for about a minute before dying- Oh, yeah, right … using 1979 technology, but, but still, that’s, that’s the shtick. And I appreciate that because another movie that was kind of going through my head while we were watching this, maybe it’s the drill, maybe it’s the era, was the Toolbox Murders- 

Craig: Yeah

Todd: where that guy runs around and among other things, he’s got that, that nail gun that he’s shooting at people, but it’s not plugged into anything. And I… That always bothered me, and I thought, well, at least in this case, they’re, they’re making an effort to make it clear that the drill has power. 

Craig: Yeah. At this point, like I’m looking at my notes and like just a bunch of random stuff happens.

At some point, Reno complains to the super about the music, and he’s like, “If you don’t get them to stop playing, I’m not gonna pay rent.” And the super’s like, “You don’t pay rent anyway.” And then he’s like, “Hold on, I have something for him. I have something for you.” And he opens up like a closet, and there’s a dead skinned rabbit hanging there.

He’s like, “It’s a rabbit. You should eat it.” And so Reno takes it upstairs and like butchers it and seductively plays with it with his knife. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then he finally goes shopping for a Porta-Pak. Now I have in my notes that we are now 40 minutes in. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And at the same time, I feel like a lot has happened, and nothing has happened.

Todd: Yeah. The story hasn’t advanced much, but we have certainly seen a lot of these people’s lives. Again, it felt very Eraserhead because it… I don’t know if it’s also that, that little baby kinda looked like a skinned rabbit. Like, we don’t know exactly how they did that baby in Eraserhead, but we kinda have an idea.

And so the, the imagery was there. And he stabs at this thing, and it, again, it seems like another thing clicks. Like, “This is gonna get me off,” or, “This is gonna be my release valve or something.” 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: You’re right. He goes to get the Porta-Pak. And now, an hour in, we do get our first kill. 

Craig: Well, right. Like, after the whole rabbit thing, he starts having like…

He starts hearing things. There’s a trippy scene where like he, he, he thinks he hears Carol or somebody calling to him- Mm-hmm … but there’s nobody there. 

Todd: He sees pictures of her on the wall. Uh, were they even there? I’m not even sure. 

Craig: I don’t know. And it’s like he’s in one place, like the, the clean, nice apartment where he’s painting, and then all of a sudden it changes.

Like, in a flash, it changes like he’s in a different place. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And there’s weird lights, and there’s a guy in a bunny head suit with like red lit up eyes. And then Carol with her eyeballs cut out. I have no idea what that guy in the bunny suit was about. Like, what was that? 

Todd: Donnie Darko shit right there.

Craig: Oh, God. I don’t know. But then he starts killing people. Yeah, he runs out and he drills a homeless guy. The first guy I think he gets in the abdomen- Chest … or the chest. Oh 

Todd: my God. It was brutal. 

Craig: It’s gross. 

Todd: Super gross. Yeah. I, I would- I was impressed. I, I don’t… It kinda turned my stomach, and part of it is just the energy behind it.

He’s just grabbing this guy and ramming that drill in and out, and in and out. I mean, it’s, blood is going everywhere. It’s really graphic, and it’s really well shot. Like, really well shot. 

Craig: Yeah, and there’s lots of that really bright red blood from the ’70s and like- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: the giallos and stuff and, and it…

You’re right, it is violent and it is high-energy, and it goes on for a while. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like, that was why it was kind of jarring for me because I’m like, “Oh, yeah, here it is. Oh, yeah, it’s violent. Oh, it’s still going.” Yeah. Like, I, I was impressed. This movie is violent. Like, you said that it w- they mostly got in trouble for the box art.

I, I, I think what I read was that the movie may have gone unnoticed otherwise, but it’s like that box art just drew attention to how violent and gory it was going to be. Mm. And it is. I’m not surprised this is one of the first video nasties because it is very violent, and there’s lots and lots of blood.

So- Yeah … I, I mean, I, I feel like it earned it. For, for the time, I mean, today it doesn’t really seem all that shocking at all. Eh. But for the time, it, I think it was pretty scandalous. 

Todd: Yeah, I think so. I, I mean, even for today it kinda holds up. I mean, I, I thought it was… Like I said, it kinda turned my stomach a bit.

It, I was shocked at how violent and, you know, semi-realistic it was for, for this low-budget production, especially at this time when these exploitation movies kinda just do whatever they, you know, do the quick, cheap thing and, and move on. I thought it also has got a bit of dark humor in here as well. I thought it was pretty funny that the next scene is Pam going to throw something away, and she lifts the lid on the garbage can and she sees the corpse of the rabbit and screams.

Oh, that’s funny. It is. It’s hilarious. We never do get to see anybody discover any of these bodies and scream. These bodies never seem to get discovered. It’s kinda funny. I mean, obviously they probably do, but we never hear… We only hear about it once in the whole movie. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: There’s just more scenes of the band playing, Reno continuing to be fascinated by the eye of the buffalo on his painting.

At one point he kinda goes up to it, looks like he’s gonna stab it with a switchblade, but thinks better of himself. I mean, he’s just clearly going crazy. 

Craig: Uh-huh. 

Todd: And then there are general shenanigans happening from the band. The girls are threatening Pam because they think she’s getting too close to the lead singer guy Pam and Reno are talking over pinball, and I always love a good vintage pinball scene.

That was, that was great. Really appreciate that. Band’s playing at their club. Reno’s listening. He’s kinda spacing out and kinda going crazy, and then he runs out. And this is a point in which, again, I thought that the sound design was so good. The music is o- that the band is playing is continuing to go through these scenes, but it’s also being kinda blended with some of this more general, like, horror music that will come in and out, and then long pauses of nothing.

It’s a real barrage to your senses, and I think done in a really effective way. 

Craig: This was the part that was particularly jarring to me, because they make a point of saying, “We’re going to this club, and we’re going to see this band play,” and they get ready and they go. But then there’s this long sequence where it, it’s, it’s like they’re there sometimes, and then I couldn’t tell if they were just, like, in a different part of the club sometimes- Maybe they’re in the bathroom or something

or it seemed like sometimes 

Todd: they were 

Craig: at home. Yeah. I, I wasn’t sure. And there’s lots of weird things going on. Like, was there an orgy in the bathroom at some point? Like- Hmm … it seemed like there were a lot of people- In the bathroom … in various states of dis- you know. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: They were like- With clo- Because, because clothes were, like, coming back on.

And there was one guy who was just standing up against one of the back walls- … repeatedly, repeatedly chanting, “I wanna see somebody’s pussy.” 

Todd: Just keeps 

Craig: saying it over and over and over again. 

Todd: Yeah. That 

Craig: was a very strange scene. It’s a 

Todd: vibe. It’s a vibe. 

Craig: And I, I still don’t know what was going on in there, but then there’s a lot of dancing.

And then he drills somebody in the street, I have in my notes, during the show. Like- Yeah … it, it seems as though- He leaves … he just ran out, ran out of the club, ran down the street, and just drilled the first person that he came across on the street. 

Todd: Yeah, he does. And then he moves on to another guy who’s kinda…

And, and it’s interesting. They got a lot of different ways of doing this. At one point, he’s standing over this dude almost like a guitar player. He’s almost got these guitar player moves he’s doing while the, while the guitar music is playing behind him, and then he goes in and drills him. And, and then he runs away, and then we see these, like, legs sticking out on the subway platform, and we see them jerk around and we can s- you know, we, we surmise that offscreen behind that wall that he’s been drilling him, and he pops into s- into frame and runs off.

There’s another derelict that he runs across. The, the guy’s like suddenly, “Hey, old friend, what are you doing out here?” And he’s really, really chatty. 

Craig: Friendly, 

Todd: yeah. Yeah, he’s real friendly, and this part kinda bothered me because you could tell these guys knew each other. This was one of the dudes he was hanging out with before.

Hmm. And he’s like, “Hey, man, hold down.” He’s kinda threatening with the drill, but the guy’s still trying to be nice. 

Craig: Have a drink, buddy. Hey, come on, Mr. Cool it now. Come on, don’t get excited What, do you got problems or something? What, do you got problems with your old lady? Ah, I thought so, huh? She’s taking you across the coals, giving you a hard time.

Well, I’ll tell you something. I got the same problem myself, man, and I got one word of advice 

Todd: He comes right up to him and drills him right in the stomach, and there’s this, like, slow motion of him, like, sliding down, and the music suddenly turns to jazz as he’s, as he’s coming down and… And then it slows down a little bit- 

Craig: It’s just so…

The pacing is so strange- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: because ri- right in the middle of this rampage, there is, I would say, at least a minute and a half, two-minute scene of just this guy acting crazy at a bus stop. Oh. Uh, and, and these two other guys y- who don’t know each other, they’re just random guys at the bus stop doing what you do when you’re in a situation where somebody is acting like a crazy person.

Like, they’re just trying to mind their own business and ignore him, and he’s- 

Todd: Mm-hmm … 

Craig: kinda messing with them a little bit. It, it goes on… And it was… I, I thought it was well done. I thought the guy who was playing the crazy guy did a good job of playing the kind of crazy person you see on the street sometimes.

Todd: Yeah. Mentally disturbed, yeah, 100%. Yeah. 

Craig: And it was… You know, I’ve, I’ve not been in that close proximity when that’s happened, but I’ve visited Vegas multiple times, and I’ve seen it, you know, on the street many, many times. So he did a good job. It just went on for a really long time. Finally, the bus comes, and the two guys get on the bus, and, and the weird one does not.

And then Abel just pops out of nowhere and drills him- Yeah … through the plexiglass of the bus stop. 

Todd: Also a very violent scene. And I thought that the director was doing something here pretty smart, and he does it several times after this as well, where he seems to be dialing it down, kinda getting us…

Like you said, there’s a little bit of tension ’cause we’re kinda waiting for him to pop up, but then after a while, like, we realize he’s not gonna pop up, and the scene is gonna play out, and it’s just gonna be weird and awkward. And then our guard is down a bit until the end of the scene where it’s just this guy s- there by himself, and you’re thinking, “All right.

Now he’s gonna get it,” and now the tension is starting to ramp back up inside ’cause we’re just anticipating this guy coming, right? And I thought that was really effective. He does it here once. He does it once toward the end. Um, there’s another moment where he does it. And then sometimes he just makes fun.

Like, there… The, the scene after this, I laughed out loud. There are these two homeless guys chatting, and one’s sitting on the curb, and one’s sitting behind a trash can, and one’s telling him, the other guy, a story, and he’s like, “So I says to him, I says blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” and then suddenly out of nowhere, Abel just jumps up from- Behind and drills him, and then runs over and drills the other guy, and then runs off the screen.

It’s getting comical at this point. And they have a little dance around a pillar. 

Craig: Yeah, one of the guys, that goes on for a while. Yeah. Like, the pacing is so strange. I noticed on more than one occasion after he’d killed somebody, there’s never any blood on the drill bit- Mm … which is weird. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then he drills another guy, a big guy, right through a s- the, this guy’s asleep, passed out on the street, and he just starts drilling right into his forehead.

Todd: Yep, that’s the famous, uh, shot. 

Craig: Right, the f- the one. And then he drills through his head until he’s dead, and then he gives him a kiss on the forehead, and then he goes home and has a beer. 

Todd: Yeah. Like- He’s eating a sandwich. 

Craig: It’s so strange. It’s like the next 

Todd: morning. Yeah, almost like- Yeah, it’s- … it could’ve, it could’ve been a fever dream.

Does this guy, you even wonder, does he even realize? Is this a Dr. Jekyll-Mr. Hyde situation? Does he even know he was out there drilling these people? That was what was going through my head at least. Has he gone that far off the deep end? Or was it a fever dream? Did that not even happen? 

Craig: No, it happened because the next day Tony comes o- Tony’s the lead singer of the band, and he’s a flamboyant character in and of himself.

But he comes over looking for Pam, ’cause I guess he and Pam kind of have a thing now, and he is so impressed with Reno’s paintings that he wants a portrait. All right. So Reno says he’ll do it, but then, I don’t remember if he’s working on the portrait or if he’s working on the buffalo, I think he’s working on the buffalo, but Carol is just sitting there reading the paper, and she says, “Oh my gosh, can you believe this?

They found a body just around here. This guy, they think he was part of the homeless community. He was murdered on the street, and they think he may have been killed with a, an electric drill.” And Reno looks over and sees that his electric drill is just sitting on a c- a shelf, and he, like, freaks out- Yeah

and starts screaming at her and getting in her face and, like, backing her up, and he’s like, “What are you trying to do to me?” And it’s very violent, and she’s clearly scared. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then it just hard cuts to the throuple just sitting on the floor eating pizza. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he’s a disgusting, greedy slob. Like, he is just s- shoving this pizza in his mouth.

It’s disgusting to watch. And they’re all just ki- the two women are kind of looking at him like he’s- Gross. And, and eventually, you know, when he realizes he’s eaten all but, like, one piece of the pizza, he makes some smartass comment and P- and Carol throws pizza at his face. So she’s obviously getting tired of his bullshit.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And she leaves and calls her ex, and she comes back home, and Reno has painted her what can only be described as a child’s painting of I’m sorry. Yeah. 

Todd: Like, 

Craig: it’s, like, the three of them as stick figures holding hands. 

Todd: Uh-huh. 

Craig: You know, it looks like something somebody would’ve done in first grade, and I imagine…

I, I, I don’t know if he was trying to be cute or… 

Todd: Well, he’s trying a little bit, you know. She’s still… She’s clearly on the edge of leaving, and he’s gotta do this portrait for this musician. And so the musician comes in and is kinda posing for it, but after a while, we’re m- further into the portrait, and now the musician is playing his music, reading poetry and stuff, and they’re hanging out at the place.

And at one time, he just starts banging Pam on the floor while Reno is just working away at his painting of- 

Craig: All of that music playing is disturbing a crackhead who apparently lives in the alley down- Yeah … beneath the 

Todd: apartment. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And we just, we just see him getting agitated for a while, and then out of nowhere Reno pops around the corner and drills his hands to the wall, like almost crucifies him to the wall, and then drills in his head.

It’s such a… It’s just such a strange, seemingly random series of events. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then it’s like he goes back upstairs, and the girls are in bed together naked. I don’t know where Tony is at this point ’cause we never saw him leave. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And he hasn’t even been working on the buffalo painting. He’s been working on the Tony painting, but now all of a sudden he’s done with the buffalo painting.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And they clean up the house, and they clean themselves up, and Carol and Reno have the dealer over, and the dealer looks at it and says it’s a pile of shit, and that the worst thing that can happen to an artist is happening to Reno. He’s just becoming a technician. There’s no… There’s nothing behind it.

There, there’s, there’s no emotion. There’s no feeling behind it. It’s just a painting. He says he would be ashamed to show it to anybody, and he storms out. And Reno and Carol just sit there awkwardly for a second. Th- I fe- thought this was a really interesting scene- Yeah … because the whole time, the whole time that this guy is throwing pretty nasty insults at Reno, Reno is sitting there like a scolded child.

Yeah. Like a, a school child. Like, he’s hunched in his chair. He’s not making eye contact. He’s not talking back or fighting back or arguing. He just sits there. And eventually Carol gets up and, and screams and throws a pot at the wall or something and- 

Todd: Do something. 

Craig: Yeah, do something. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But he doesn’t, so- She leaves.

Yeah And he tries to chase her and get her back, but she doesn’t come back, and, and Pam cries 

Todd: I felt really bad at this point. I mean, this guy… I mean, don’t get me wrong, he’s a killer, he’s killed people, he’s going nuts, but, like, she was kind of the last thing that he had in his life really, and she had been supporting him, and he, you know, had made the gesture that I’m sorry and all that stuff.

But she’s, she runs out, and he runs after her outside and, and he grabs her stuff, and she just throws her shit on the ground and r- and walks away, storms away. He’s like, “D- don’t you want… You need your things. You need your things.” I mean… And then it cuts to Pam, who’s crying in bed. Mm-hmm. And that Bach, I don’t know what that Bach tune is, but there’s a Bach composition playing in the background as well.

Very interesting choice. He just is despondent. He imagines phone calls with her. He’s lying down, his eyes closed. 

Craig: He plays with a lightsaber. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s weird. He’s having more of those flashes to himself drilling with blood splattering all over his face. I mean, it… I felt for this guy in this situation. I just, I, I did.

I, I was surprised. I was surprised I felt for this guy. And then he gets his idea. 

Craig: I guess. But you didn’t- Yeah, I guess I felt a little- Yeah … I, I don’t know. 

Todd: I’m- It’s a movie. 

Craig: I don’t know. I don’t feel like I know enough about him. I don’t, I don’t know enough about him to feel sorry for him. I mean, he… I don’t find him charming.

The movie tells us that people find him charming. Hmm. I don’t. 

Todd: No. Yeah, I don’t really either. I just, I just feel sorry for the guy maybe more than anything. I don’t 

Craig: know. Yeah. I, I guess. I- he seems self-involved. I, I don’t know. Yeah Whatever. Anyway, he… Yeah, you said he, he makes this plan. He calls up the dealer and says…

It, it’s the middle of the night, and he says, “I need you to come over. I, I need to show you something. It’s way better than the buffalo.” And he kind of suggests that this might be more than a business meeting. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: The, the dealer’s gay. 

Todd: Uh-huh. That, that was interesting, wasn’t it? He’s like, “I’ll be all alone.”

“Oh, you’ll be all alone, Reno? I can… I’m gonna need some time to get ready. Should I bring some wine over?” 

Craig: Right. And so he invites the guy over, and then we see the rabbit’s head for some reason. I don’t know if that’s supposed to be- Oh, I think it was- … suggestive of something. 

Todd: Yeah, I think it was just kind of a reminder that this guy’s off, and he’s probably gonna, he’s probably gonna do something terrible, right?

Craig: Yeah. ‘

Todd: Cause it pans over to the severed rabbit head, and then it pans right back up to his crazy eyes. 

Craig: Yeah. And then in s- a, a, a strange sort of montage, Reno puts on makeup- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: like eyeliner and mascara and lip liner And panties? 

Todd: I guess 

Craig: And then suits up in just, like, black pants and a black shirt, maybe a jacket.

He’s looking 

Todd: very glam. 

Craig: He’s got kind of a- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: yeah, he’s got, like, the lead singer of The Cure kind of thing- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: kind of going on. 

Todd: With the w- juxtaposed with the music playing and the, you know, the band playing next door, I thought it all kinda fit. It’s kinda- 

Craig: Well, it’s just strange. I mean, it’s… I mean, it’s obviously setting up for a finale, but all of this comes out of nowhere seemingly.

Like, why all of a sudden is he wearing women’s underwear? 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Is he wear- like, I d- 

Todd: I don’t 

Craig: know … what’s happening? I don’t know. It’s a 

Todd: garter. 

Craig: Who knows? Who cares? 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: whatever. Whatever. Yeah, I mean, he, he, he looks good for the, the final stuff. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Anyway, the dealer comes over, and it’s pretty unceremonious.

He confronts him and menaces him with the drill, and then he drills him, and he drills him, like, into the front door. So when Pam comes home, she sees a hole in the door, and she sees something red spilling out of it, but she opens the door and, and sees the dealer there and panics, but Reno grabs her from behind and doesn’t kill her on screen, which I thought was kind of an interesting choice.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: I, I, I think we’re intentionally left to wonder if he killed her at all. 

Todd: Yes, I agree. 

Craig: I don’t know. Because then it cuts to Carol and Steve in their, I don’t know, suburban home, I guess, and they appear to be- Back together … post-coitus- Yeah … I, I guess. And they’re, they’re, they’re back together. They’re, like, in robes together, and he’s like, “You go upstairs and take your shower or whatever, and I’ll make some tea.”

And so she goes upstairs and gets in the shower, and he makes tea. And Reno, I guess, knows where he lives and how to get in undetected because he just pops up in the kitchen out of nowhere and drills Steve in the lower abdomen, and Steve immediately dies. 

Todd: Yeah. Super fast. 

Craig: That was hilarious to me. Like, he dies instantly.

And the final scene I actually thought… 

Todd: Was great … 

Craig: I, yeah, I didn’t see it playing out the way that it was. Sh- she comes into her bedroom, and there is a form, a male form under the sheets of her bed, and she assumes it’s Steve. We assume it’s Reno, but she just turns… He, she turns out the light, so w- we are in black now.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And she gets into bed with him. We can see nothing, and she’s talking to him, and she keeps telling him to come closer, come closer. Credits. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: I, I, I actually really liked that ending. 

Todd: Me too. 

Craig: I liked the, uh, the ambiguity of it. 

Todd: Yeah. It, oh, God, it, it… Again, it was like- It was a little bit like shades of Black Christmas for me too.

How that, I just love the ending of Black Christmas, and I feel like it, it, it’s- Yeah … very similar in this way. Like, you know something bad’s probably gonna happen, but it, it ends peacefully in the calm before the storm, I suppose. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Leaving you to wonder exactly what might have, might, might have happened.

I have to say I enjoyed it. I think you’ve gotta be in the mood for it. I think you’ve gotta be in the mood for a, what’s gonna be a mood piece, but it’s not slow like some of the other ones we’ve seen. You know, some of these character studies or whatever I feel like kinda drag. This one- Yeah … this one felt long, but it didn’t feel so draggy to me.

I- 

Craig: No, no. 

Todd: Yeah, I think I was kinda caught up in the vibe of it, and I was willing to go with it. And I liked the dream-like aspect of parts of it, and the violence was, uh, was quite shocking and, and an interesting juxtaposition to everything. This guy’s breakdown made sense, although it’s sorta like The Shining where you kinda feel like this guy was already a sandwich short of a picnic when you started.

But overall, yeah, no, it was, it was, it was fun. I, I’m really enjoyed it and I’m, I’m glad we saw it. And I think I’d recommend it if you’re into these, uh, ’70s movies, something a little more trippy, something a little more like a character study and with its horror and its gore and its slasher element to it, and, and a bit of dark humor as well, and, and great music.

Great music. Very well shot for its time. I was honestly expecting something just a little more, uh, workmanlike, and I was surprised at the artistry involved in the cinematography and the, and, and the editing of the movie. So yeah, big surprise for me actually. Well, it exceeded my expectations, which were not very high.

Craig: Yeah. I didn’t really have any expectations. I didn’t really know what we were getting into. It’s interesting. I don’t know if I would go so far as to say I like it, but I appreciate it for what it is. And, and it is interesting. I, I don’t think I would recommend it for, like, a fun movie night. 

Todd: No. It’s like an art movie, you know?

It’s one of those. 

Craig: Yeah. It, it feels more like a film. Like- 

Todd: Yes. Not a movie, a film. 

Craig: You’re, yeah, you’re, you’re watching it to appreciate the artistic choices- … rather than to have some popcorn and- 

Todd: A coherent plot … 

Craig: you know- 

Todd: Yeah … 

Craig: escape. Right It, it’s not an escapist movie. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But it is interesting. I’m, I’m glad to have seen it too.

I, I wouldn’t have any- desire or need to see it again but uh it’s worth it it’s worth checking out 

Todd: Well, thank you guys so much for listening. If you’ve seen The Driller Killer, please let us know. Just find us on twoguysandachainsaw.com. Drop us a note there or on our socials wherever. We’re on Instagram.

We’re on Facebook. And you can also recommend movies for us to do. We have a Patreon at patreon.com slash chainsawpodcast where you can chat with us a little more directly. Join our book club there where we’re reading horror books and discussing those on video chat a couple times a month and also posting our complete unedited phone calls that lead to these episodes with all the stuff that we cut out and all the personal stuff we talk about before and after.

And if we happen to be a little late in getting podcast episodes out to the general public, as I have been lately, you would get those episodes as soon as we record them because we have been going just as steadily week after week, even if I’ve been pretty late with the editing. That’s just one of the benefits, like I said, that you can get by being a patron.

So go to patreon.com slash chainsawpodcast for five bucks a month and get down deep into the nitty gritty with us behind the curtain. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We check out the 2025 Tubi Original horror film, ‘Match,’ and dig into its modern dating-app setup, low-budget vibe, and surprisingly solid practical effects.

We talk through the creepy catfishing premise, the overbearing mom luring women to her house, and Henry’s memorable monster design, along with the movie’s mix of gross-out shocks, dark humor, and some frustrating “why would you do that?” character choices.

Despite the cliches and suspension-of-disbelief moments, there’s plenty to discuss—from the Buffy-like mid-movie team-up and standout kills to the bizarre music-soothing motif and an especially brutal finale. If you’re in the mood for something dumb, goofy, and competently made, this one might be worth the watch on free, ad-supported Tubi.

Match (2025)

Episode 477, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: Today we’re going for a modern film. This is a 2025 movie that Craig has chosen a Tubi original, which I didn’t even realize there were Tubi originals, but- 

Craig: Yeah. … 

Todd: I’m not, I’m not the huge Tubi fan you are. So, I mean, I love Tubi, but, uh, I don’t watch it as much as you do.

So you probably know better than me because you’re the one who picked it. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: This is Match. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and I do. I, I really like Tubi. Tubi reminds me of, you know, back in the day when we just had TV where you could just turn something on. It’s free. It’s ad supported. So you have to watch commercials, which is kind of annoying, but- 

Todd: Mm.

Craig: it’s, it’s not as, you know, back in the day we always had to watch commercials, so it’s not- 

Todd: Yeah. … 

Craig: that big a deal. And yeah, 2B does some pretty good original movies, in fact. I- 

Todd: Okay. 

Craig: I’m surprised that we haven’t talked about this before because I, I think they did a terror train- 

Todd: Okay. … 

Craig: remake. Was that, that was that Jamie Lee Curtis movie with- 

Todd: Yeah.

David Copperfield. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. David Copperfield. Yeah. I think they did a remake of that and then I think they did a sequel to their remake and they’ve done other original movies too. The only ones that I’ve watched have been their horror movies. I think they do originals and other genres too. But yeah, I’m a fan of Tubi.

I like free stuff. Yeah. 

Todd: We’re fans of free. We always have been. 

Craig: Yeah. Big, big fan. Yeah. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: But yeah, I, I, I picked this … So this is a movie that I put on … I think it was because Alan wasn’t home in the evening. He was rehearsing a play or whatever, and I needed something to watch. And I try to find things to watch that he wouldn’t be particularly interested in.

And I found this … I had never heard of it. I don’t think I’ve ever read anything about it. I was, I w- when I found it, I was surprised. I was like, “Why have I never heard of this? ” And, and, and then I watched it and it was surprising to me and-

I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it in a weird kind of way. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. I can see what you’re talking about. Uh-huh. 

Craig: And then you, we were like, “What are we gonna do? ” And sometimes when I pick movies, it’s kind of an exercise in testing them on you. Like- Aha. … I wanna know, like, what would, what is Todd gonna think of this movie?

And, and I’m genuinely … Because I feel like I watch movies all the time and I talk about them to you and you’re like, “Yeah, I’ve never heard of it. I’ve never seen it. ” I, I, I think that you’re just a, y- you’re busier than I am, so you don’t have the time to watch as many movies as I do, but every once in a while, I’ll see a movie like this and I’ll think, “I wonder what Todd would think of this movie.”

Todd: I can kinda see why. Yeah. I mean, I’d obviously never heard of it before. I didn’t even know Tubi made originals, but here we are. And I was kind of impressed when I saw that the writers of this movie was the same duo that wrote Zom Beavers. 

Craig: Oh, yeah? I didn’t know that. 

Todd: Yeah, they wrote Zom Beavers, the direct Al Kaplan and John Kaplan, I think they’re brothers.

And they were also, they’re musicians as much as they are writers, actually. They’ve, they probably have more right credits as composers, but mostly like composers for these, these silly movies. I, they must work for one of these companies that does the mock busters or whatever. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Like movies like Pirana Konda and Dino Crocker versus Supergater.

They have one called The Hills Have Thighs, which I would like us to see maybe that would be, that sounds very much up my alley. 

Craig: You’re gross. 

Todd: Oh, I am honest.

And then the director is Danica Esther Haase and, uh, she directed quite a few movies before this too, you know? She’s directed like 28 movies and I looked through them and they’re, you know, most, many of them, if not most of them are things you’ve never heard of. And I think that a lot of them are TV movies are straight to video, but she did the remake for the Slumber Party Massacre in 2021.

Craig: Oh. 

Todd: Have you seen that? 

Craig: I’ve either seen it or seen parts of it. 

Todd: Okay. 

Craig: It’s interesting. It’s, it’s, it’s something that we should take a look at. 

Todd: I think it is because, you know, we did, we did Slumber Party Massacre. Mm-hmm. We did the first two or three, so yeah, that would be interesting. 

Craig: 100 years 

ago. 

Todd: Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. But anyway, yeah, so after the Hills have thighs, we’ll, uh, we’ll tackle that one. 

Craig: Good. 

Todd: You, you can’t wait. So like, uh, I thought that overall the movie was pretty competently done, you know? I mean, it had a little bit of that low budget feel, but not necessarily in a bad way and not distractingly so, I would say.

I thought the acting was pretty good and yeah, I mean, there’s nobody you know in it. There are no stars. 

Craig: Mm-mm. 

Todd: But it, it opens cold with this woman being pushed down a hallway in a wheelchair and it’s a creepy hallway and she’s kind of coming out of it. 

Craig: Well, and she’s like tied, like she’s chained to it or tied to it, right?

Todd: Yep. And there’s somebody pushing her, but you can’t really see who it is. And then she gets to a door and opens it and like starts screaming. And then we’re with her and where are we here? Just a 

Craig: minute. That, that, that, it’s fine. That was a weird cold open because it doesn’t really have anything to do with like- 

Todd: Well- 

Craig: You find out, you find out event- I, I mean, was that girl in particular the one that we saw?

She doesn’t have anything to do with the rest of the plot, does she? 

Todd: Maybe not. Oh, I thought it was her. Maybe it wasn’t her. I thought this was like a flash forward kind of situation. Maybe not. I didn’t go back to double check, to be honest 

with 

Craig: you. I thought, I think it was a different girl. Maybe I’m mistaken.

I don’t know, watch it for yourself. But the- 

Todd: Yeah, the girl’s name is, the girl that we’ve end up following, her name is Paola and, and she’s gorgeous by the way. Oh my gosh. 

Craig: She’s stunning. Yeah. 

Todd: I could just watch her all day long and her sister, they’re both really beautiful. 

Craig: Yeah. Jess. 

Todd: Yeah. And she’s like matching with people on some Tinder type app.

Craig: Can we, can we pause to talk for a second? 

Todd: Oh yeah, yah, yeah. 

Craig: You have been single in the modern age. 

Todd: Oh, God. Yeah. 

Craig: Are, are you on dating apps? 

Todd: So I swore that I wouldn’t go on the dating apps. I said that I just like … ‘Cause before I was sing- … Well, when I was a, when I was immediately single, before I met Liz was a brief period of time and I had a coworker who was like, “Todd, you need to get on the dating apps.

You need to get on Tinder. It’s, it’s, it, whatever, and just have fun.” And I was like, “I don’t know, it just doesn’t seem like fun to me. ” And I, I went on Tinder and I did some swiping or whatever and I just, I didn’t enjoy it, you know? It felt like, I don’t know, it’s like a buffet of people and it’s just kind of weird.

And then when you match with them or whatever, they might message you or you might message them and it feels really exciting at first because it’s like, “Oh, I’ve made this actual connection.” Mm-hmm. But then 90% of the time it doesn’t really go anywhere. Like one person just stops talking or it just takes too long to respond and it just feels like you’re pulling teeth.

You know what I’m saying? So- 

Craig: I guess. … 

Todd: that was the experience initially. This time around, now that I’m single again and I, and I’ve been single for months and I’ve been doing a lot of traveling, I’ve just been getting on it to try to meet people in the cities I’m in and I’ve had success. And I’ve actually found it kind of nice because who has the energy?

Craig: I get it. 

Todd: When you’re in a new city, you know, especially or whatever to like find a bar or wherever, you know, you might meet people and go through the motions and the whatever to just try to meet someone so much nicer to just have a buffet of people that are around who also wanna meet people and you can match with them and you can see what they look like immediately and it, you know, it kinda cuts through a lot of the initial, you know, you know, oh, I find this person attractive, I don’t and, and whatever.

So I’ve actually, um, I’ve actually met some really cool people through the dating apps and I’ve done it while I’ve been traveling. I would not do it here in Beijing where I live because I just don’t want the, because I know the people I know are also on the dating apps. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And I don’t know what it is.

I just kinda have a thing I don’t want them seeing my profile. You know, I don’t 

Craig: want that- I, I, like I, I honestly don’t even know how they work. Like I’ve, like I’ve read about Grindr and I think- Oh, Grindr’s different. And I’ve read that Grindr works on like proximity, so- 

Todd: Oh, dude. Dude, Grindr, I went to Singapore with some friends.

We went on a guy’s trip and one of us is gay and the other three of us are straight. And the gay guy insisted he needed his own apartment. We, we went into a really expensive hotel, like the priceiest hotel in Singapore, like the one that everybody knows, the marina based sands with the beautiful roof. We could only afford to stay there like two days, but we just wanted the experience.

He insisted on having his own room because he’s like, “I’m gonna be on Grindr and I’m gonna be busy.” 

Craig: Oh my God. 

Todd: And I kid you not, Craig, we are standing in line to check in at this super fancy place, right? I mean, it’s busy. It’s busy. And as we’re standing there, and it’s a little bit of a process for all four of us to get checked in, my friend, he turns to me, to us and goes, “Oh, that guy over there just made an eye, eyes at me, like as he walked by.”

Like some dude just walked by and then he picks up his phone, he looks at it and he goes, “Oh, yep, he just messaged me. ” And we were like, “What? In the last 30 seconds, this guy walked by you, made eyes at you, and now he’s on Grindr and found you? ” mm-hmm. Like he’s literally standing at the other end of the counter at this moment.

And that’s when I learned that Grindr is 100% different from Tinder. Grindr, I mean, this is when I kind of wish I was gay, to be honest with you. I wish there was a gay bone in my body. I really do because I think gay guys end up having a lot of fun. 

Craig: Give it a try. You never know.

Todd: You never know. Oh 

Craig: man. Oh. Yeah. No, that’s, it’s, it’s wild to me. And like, I consider myself like a liberal-minded sex positive person, but- Yeah. … that does not appeal to me. Right. I don’t know. It’s just so awkward and strange. Like, I can’t just imagine just meeting someone for sex and, and- 

Todd: Yeah. … 

Craig: and, and, and people do it and, and- 

Todd: It’s not me.

Craig: They’re having … It’s, it’s fine. I, like- 

Todd: Yeah, it’s okay. 

Craig: It’s- Do whatever you wanna do. I don’t care. It doesn’t have any effect or impact on me. It’s just, I don’t know. I mean, 

Todd: I just tain, I wish there was a grinder for straight men, because Tinder is awkward. I mean, it’s not … It is what it is. You know, you’re swiping left, you’re swiping right, and if you both swipe right on each other, then it says you’re a match and now you can message each other.

And then it kinda just goes from there. Like, are you gonna … Is, is one person gonna respond? Does one person even check the app that often? You know, that’s what you get a lot of times, is like, you match with somebody, you’re all excited, you send them a message, and you get a message back, like, five days later, you know, that kind of thing is an issue as well.

Grindr is just, you open it up and it’s like, “Here are all the people within 30 meters of you. ” You, 

Craig: you seem to know a lot about Grindr talk. 

Todd: I do because you told me all about it and this guy can open it up- … And just the pr- anybody who’s in that whole hotel who’s also on Grindr is immediately available and, and they can message each other and there are photos up there and Tinder has photo, has policies against nudity and stuff in the photos on there.

That is not a thing on Grindr. So it’s just basically like- Who’s down? 

Craig: Give somebody a picture of your butt hole. 

Todd: Yeah. I was very jealous. I cannot gonna lie. 

Craig: So we’re watching this movie. We have to talk about the movie. I mean, I, I kinda like it, but I was mad that … Okay, so this girl is on Tinder or whatever and she matches with some guy and then he’s like, “Come to my house for a date.”

First of all, no. Like- 

Todd: Yeah. … 

Craig: you, you don’t go to somebody’s house for a first date. 

Todd: No. 

Craig: You don’t … No, you go somewhere public. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I guess, I mean, if you know them already, that’s a different story. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But she goes to this guy’s house and, uh- 

Todd: Against her sister’s wishes. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: Her sister is the voice of reason through all this, but I can see where this girl

I know people like this, you know? You just get excited and you just kind of like ignore the warning signs because you’ve been talking with them for a while and she even tries to video chat with him and he shows up on the screen for like 10 seconds and then it kind of freezes and it goes away and, you know, you can see what’s happening, right?

I mean, imit- immediately we’re all suspicious and- 

Craig: I guess, but like he’s handsome and nice. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. So- He’s a nice looking 

Craig: guy. I get it. But- 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But you go some … I just, like, I, again, I’ve never done it. I’ve never been on Tinder or Grindr, any of those sites, but I just feel like the first rule is first date always somewhere public, right?

Isn’t that the first rule? 

Todd: Oh yeah, 100%. And usually something like that you can get duck out of early if you need to. Something that, you know- 

Craig: Yeah, coffee. 

Todd: Great. Coffee, yeah. Afternoon, coffee, you can have an excuse. I can only be there for an hour, whatever. 

Craig: But she goes to his house, and I apologize. I, I

Listeners, I told Todd this before, but I didn’t take any notes at all on this movie. I usually take extensive notes so that I can kind of- Yeah, 

Todd: you’re a plot king. You’re the one who I rely on to recount the plot in detail because I forget that shit. 

Craig: Extensive, extensive notes, but I didn’t because I rewatched it and I made Alan watch it.

And as we were watching the movie, I kept saying to him, “You don’t hate it. I can tell you don’t hate it. ” You would just be like, “Well, I don’t like it. ” And then I would check in with them and, you know, a half an hour later, “You don’t hate it. Well, I don’t like it. ” Uh, I don’t think he hated it. I, I, I think that this is not a bad movie.

Todd: Uh-huh. 

Craig: It’s a good movie, but I also said to you when we were choosing movies, I said, “Do you want something smart and arty or do you want something dumb?” And I don’t remember what the other word I … And, and you chose dumb. That’s why I chose this because- 

Todd: Yeah, yeah. I noticed. Yeah. 

Craig: Because then she goes to the house and- 

Todd: Ignores every warning sign.

Craig: I know, exactly. You should lay out the warning. I mean, first of all, his mom answers and, uh, he’ll be down in a minute. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: I was frustrated with her. Like- 

Todd: Yeah. A- 

Craig: a- a- and I like her. I don’t even remember what her name is. 

Todd: Paula. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she’s very likable, but- 

Todd: Dumb. … 

Craig: just leave. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Just leave.

Todd: Leave and come back when he’s home. It … She, she comes in, the mom is like really kind of weird and she’s coughing a lot and she really pushes this wine on her, so she drinks the wine. Of course, you’re thinking big mistake. And one thing I noticed was one thing that her sister was saying is this guy’s a little strange because he talks really too eloquently, right?

Like he’s got kind of just a weird way of, of saying like fancy words or whatever. His sentence structure is just very old timey in a way. And then when you’re watching this, you realize it’s because it’s the mom. That’s the way she talks. I don’t remember exactly what happens, but, uh, she drinks the wine and she starts to feel woozy and she passes out and when she wakes up, she’s strapped to that wheelchair.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And she’s being pushed down that same hallway and there’s like a foot and a mouse trap and all kinds of gross stuff down this hallway. It doesn’t even look like the same house because it’s the basement. This house, I, this house is massive. I know. I don’t even understand how this house exists in a neighborhood.

Craig: This was, it was frustrating to me too. I don’t think it’s the basement. I think it’s supposed to be the second floor. 

Todd: Oh, you’re right. 

Craig: It’s like the second floor of a huge building. Yes. Like- Yes. How does, how does this second floor exist in this suburban home? Now, mind you- Like 

Todd: they can get lost in it. 

Craig: Yes.

It’s a nice home. It’s a big home, but there’s no way that these massive long hallways with multiple doors to multiple rooms in every hallway, it makes no sense. It’s true. It makes absolutely no sense. 

Todd: Especially toward the end of the movie when they’re trying to escape, they’re turning down hallway after hallway and like, what?

This place is not a hotel. This is supposed to be their house. 

Craig: Yes, ridiculous. Yeah, and most of the second act takes place in that hallway. And the girl, the main girl … Okay, we haven’t set it up. So the mother is trying to acquire a grandchild by setting up these women on Tinder with her grossly deformed hills have eyes son.

Todd: Yeah. Henry, she pushes her into this room and leaves her there and this hulking beast comes out of the shadows towards her with a rose, breathing heavily. She screams. He’s cartoonishly freaker. He’s like quasimoto type, but- 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Quasimoto mixed with mask mixed with, I don’t know, like half of his, his face is just, it looks like one giant tumor.

Honestly, I really like the monster design. I thought it was good. 

Craig: Me too. Me too. And I, I, I’m looking at the guy who played him, Jack Adrian’s apparently is his name. Mm-hmm. And he’s a very handsome guy. Honestly, like, this horribly disfigured guy chases these people around for the next 45 minutes. 

Todd: Mm-hmm.

Craig: That’s kind of what the movie is about. But even before the movie told us we should feel bad for him, I felt bad for him. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, this is the classic, uh, overbearing mother- 

Craig: Right. … 

Todd: and the poor kid has no control, and he’s now an adult, and he’s still being mothered by this woman and is just under her thumb the whole time, and, and he really needs help, and he needs care, and she’s just manipulating him.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: For this purpose, this grandfather, it gets really, really gross, because after the Paula escapes, she kind of goes down a hall, she gets her foot in a mouse trap, later she lights a match to find her way down this hallway that has plenty of light in it. She cowers in a doorway for no reason at all. I thought, I felt like they were just really stretching this out.

Like, every time Paula escapes- 

Craig: mm-hmm. … 

Todd: and ducks into a room, time suddenly stands still. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And now she’s interested in exploring or seeing things or whatever. Like, just get the f- out of there, you know? 

Craig: I know. 

Todd: Just, like, run. 

Craig: There’s one point where she falls asleep and sleeps until the next day. 

Todd: Yes.

That was crazy. I couldn’t believe it. She was asleep in this place. I, I, I just wanted to, like, move faster, Paula, pick it up- Yeah. … pick it up. No one’s gonna help you, and this is not a place you wanna linger. Meanwhile, her s- her sister notices that she’s not home, and her, they’re, they have a father who is blind, conveniently blind.

Craig: Yes, and he’s having surgery- 

Todd: mm-hmm. … 

Craig: the next day, and they’ve both promised that they would be there. So the sister knows that something must be wrong, because- mm-hmm. … even though the mom, the, the crazy mom is texting the sister, Maria, from Paula’s phone, Maria knows something must be wrong because she said she would be here.

There, there’s no re- there’s no … She wouldn’t miss this. 

Todd: Yeah. So she’s, they’ve got this parallel thing going where she’s trying to hunt down her sister, and, uh, she knows she’s maybe gone out on a date with this guy, and- mm-hmm. … hasn’t turned home. Mm-hmm. ‘

Craig: Cause Paula told her. Yeah. Yeah. She told her. And, and, and, you know, I, I met this guy on Tinder or whatever.

She was gonna go on a date with him, and she has … Alan pointed this out to me, Maria has Paula on Life360. 

Todd: Which is what? Oh, oh, is that where you can track people, where they are? 

Craig: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. 

Todd: Oh, oh, I didn’t catch that bit. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and so she knows where her phone is. Mm, 

Todd: that’s how she 

Craig: knew. And, and that’s how, and that’s how she gets there.

I mean, a lot of the movie … I, I, I think that the intent is for Henry to rape her immediately, but she escapes and she knocks him out, and then she runs around in the house forever. Mm-hmm. Like, it just seems like forever. Y- y- y- you already talked about, like, the mousetrap that she steps in. And at one point, she goes into a room that is apparently full of a bunch of dead girls.

Like- Yeah. … I guess, I guess these other dead girls are girls that Henry has killed before, like, they were previous tries or whatever. Yes. I don’t really understand why none of them are decomposed. It’s not like this is a freezer. 

Todd: No. 

Craig: You know, like- 

Todd: Yeah. … 

Craig: it’s just a, it’s just a room full of fresh dead girls.

Todd: Like- It’s like, yeah, it’s like they all came over. Like one was the, his, his 80 AM, one was his, you know, 10 o’clock. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. They are very, very fresh. 

Craig: Oh, God. That’s, that’s weird. And then I think my favorite part of the movie is that w- the mom, like, okay, so Paula manages to escape the wheelchair and she knocks, uh, Henry out and then she’s running around.

At some point, the mom is like, “Oh, it’s too bad that she’s missing. Find her, I guess, if you can, but I’m gonna go back on Tinder and try to lure other people here.” And the, the new girl that she lures over, I, I just loved her. She was delightful. She’s my favorite character in the whole movie. And- 

Todd: Natalie- 

Craig: Yeah.

And, and, and apparently her, apparently the picture that she put on Tinder was either not her or not recent her. 

Todd: Yeah. I think it was not recent her. 

Craig: When she comes over, the mom’s like, “You’re fat.” And I was like, “This girl is so cute.” Like- 

Todd: Yeah. She was, she was really pretty. 

Craig: Oh my God, she was so cute. 

Todd: That girl was interesting because she just kind of, like, barged her way in, in a way.

The mom was acting way shadier with her than she was even acting with Paula. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And she’s just very patient and she just comes in and sits down and a- almost like she’s done this before, you know? Like she’s had resistance- mm-hmm. … and it needed to overcome it. But she’s super cute. She’s dressed real cute.

It’s kind of a bit comical at this point because the mom’s trying our horror tricks, you know, “Would you like some wine?” And she’s like, “I don’t drink.” 

Craig: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And she’s just gonna sit and stay there. But when she messages … Oh, no, that’s, that was earlier with Paolo when she messaged Henry, the mom’s phone was ringing.

Craig: No, I think it is this girl. 

Todd: Are you sure? 

Craig: Yeah, I, I think so. This girl is texting who she thinks is Henry- 

Todd: Mm. … 

Craig: and every time she’s like, uh, “Your mom’s super weird. Like, where are you? ” Yeah. But every time she sends a text, it beeps in the mom’s house coat or whatever it is that she’s wearing. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And, and, and eventually she says

I, I, I feel like maybe you’re right, maybe it happened earlier, I don’t remember, because whenever it happened, she’s like, “Isn’t that ringing in your phone?” And she says, “Yeah, Natalie’s, is this new girl.” 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Is it just because, is she only interrupted by the sister and the ex- boyfriend? 

Todd: I believe so, yeah.

They compiling in and then kind of all, all the shit hits the fan, because they’re looking for the sister, and Natalie’s like, “Well, I’m looking for Henry,” and, and then the mom flips out and, and, uh, they end up having a bit of a fight, and I think they knock her out and decide that they need to go now link up to go find Henry and, and her sister.

It’s kind of funny at this point. 

Craig: Yeah, and I liked that. It felt like, it felt like Buffy the Vampire Slayer or something like- Yeah. … the, the stakes are high, but it’s still funny and goofy. And I, I, I felt like this new girl, Natalie and the ex- boyfriend, boyfriend, whatever he is, I don’t know, they were both very silly.

And I actually wish that this had gone on longer. For the brief moment that Natalie and the ex- boyfriend and Maria were looking for Paula, it was fun and funny. And then they get upstairs and they round a corner and Paula knocks Maria out- 

Todd: With a tray. 

Craig: She smacks her right in the face with a tray. 

Todd: I love that part.

Craig: Uh, which, I just, I mean, it’s funny, but then Maria is unconscious for the next 10 minutes and they just have to drag her around while the two fun, funny people get picked off by Henry. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Uh, that was a bummer. 

Todd: It is a bummer, but that was funny. And, and at this point, I’m thinking this group of people should almost have no problem handling the situation.

Craig: They should just leave. Call the police. 

Todd: By this point, there is a lot of them. And I know Henry’s a bill hulking monster and he does have a bat with nails in it, but mom, mom is just a woman. She doesn’t even seem to be armed at this point. Like, it’s just, like, she’s easy to knock out and they end up knocking her out and they grab her keys to get upstairs.

So I mean, you know, it’s just, it should be so easy for these people to get out of there, especially because by this time, Paola has found a friend. 

Craig: Oh, right. 

Todd: She ended up in a room with a guy who is the guy that she had been video chatting with. 

Craig: Yes. Alan called this right away. Did you call it? 

Todd: I did not.

No, I didn’t. 

Craig: I believed him. He, he says, “I got catfished over here too, to meet a girl, and then they cut off my legs and made me make these videos or whatever.” 

Todd: Uh-huh. A- 

Craig: Alan called it, a- and I’m just gonna say it. I, I- Yeah, go ahead. I’m not trying to … He is also a brother. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like, the mom is his mom too.

Now, I don’t really understand this whole dynamic. 

Todd: Like- No, me neither. 

Craig: We, we also find out later, like, she spits at him, like, “And he’s impotent.” Like- 

Todd: Yeah. … what? What? So are we supposed to believe that the mother cut off this kid’s legs to just sort of make him useless and lock him in this room- 

Craig: Because he’s impotent and can’t give her late.

Todd: So, but Henry is the viral one. He’s gonna be the, he’s gonna be the harder sell. That’s the problem. Figure out a way to cure this guy’s inmate. Give him the blue pill. That should fix it. 

Craig: Right. Yes. 

Todd: That would be so much easier than trying to hook these women up with this giant hulking beast. Seems like they’re going through it the wrong way.

Which child do you watch grandkid do you want? Henry’s grandkid or the other guy’s grandkid? I mean, come on. Oh, gosh. Give him a blue pill. It’ll be fine. They have that now. Maybe she just doesn’t realize it. I think she’s got more than that for Henry because she, she, there is a scene early on- 

Craig: Oh my God.

Todd: when she sits down with him and is like, “So, were you able to perform for her? Were you able to do it? ” And he’s just like, “Uh, uh,” she’s like, “Oh, you know how to do it right? You know, you, like, just like you practiced, right? Here.” And then she reaches her hand down his pants and jerks this guy off and not only does she do that, but we get to see her wipe it off her hands, like- 

Craig: It’s disgusting.

Todd: It was, this is definitely, you know, sometimes people just put shit like this in movies to- I know. … shock you, you know? And I mean, I know that’s the point of a horror movie, right? It’s meant, it’s meant to shock us. But this, even this went a little too far for me. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I don’t know. I just felt like it wasn’t interesting enough.

The dynamic was too simple. You know, we’ve seen movies, we’ve seen a lot Uh, particularly older movies, like, you know, grindhousey type movies where there’s like a weird whacked out family. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And some of them are just dumb, but some of them are kind of fun in that the dynamic between the family members is kind of hard to sort out.

And then it’s like really weird. It’s kind of quirky and it’s, and, and then maybe there’s some weird, strange sexual thing in there, but it, you know, they don’t necessarily come right out and, and say it, but then maybe there’s a scene where you’re like, oh God, you know? I, I, I just, I just feel like it’s done a little bit better when it isn’t just thrown in your face in a scene like this, in this movie where it’s, it’s pretty simple.

Okay, crazy mom, hulking boy, there really isn’t much more to it, you know? I don’t know. Yeah. Or maybe you think differently. I don’t know. Maybe you think that the- No, no. … the characters between them, you know, the, the vibe … Because she does talk a lot with him. She has a therapist that she talks to. An 

Craig: online therapist, right?

Todd: Online. And, and the online therapist obviously has no idea that Henry looks like this. Right. But obviously she’s been going to her for advice and all that. And, and that part was kind of cute, actually. I kind of found that funny because it, it normalizes her, this situation just a little bit, you know, in a comical way.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: But yeah, I didn’t need this scene, honestly. And I also didn’t need the scene where Henry is trying to mount, uh, Paola in the hallway. 

Craig: Oh my God. 

Todd: And he pulls out his giant dick, which we get to see. 

Craig: His giant monster penis. 

Todd: And she grabs a mouse trap and snaps it right on there. That was so 

Craig: funny. 

Todd: Oh my God, that was funny.

Craig: I actually, that part I actually kind of enjoyed. Now, I, you know, I don’t enjoy depictions of sexual violence. I, I, I don’t like that. It makes me very uncomfortable. Yeah. But this was cartoonish and I, you know, no sexual assault actually happened because she was able to grab a giant rat trap and put it on his monstrous giant penis.

Todd: Yes. And then we get to see him struggle with it, get it off. I mean- I keep 

Craig: pulling it off. 

Todd: Oh my God.

Craig: Oh, come on. And like, I do not have a giant monstrous penis, but like- Can you even ima- like- 

Todd: No, I was trying to think 

Craig: of like- That’s gonna take weeks. Yeah. That’s gonna take weeks and weeks to heal. Your penis is gonna hurt so bad for weeks and weeks. 

Todd: He’s really, she need to put that Tinder on pause because he’s gonna be out for the count for a while.

I don’t even know how he can manage with that giant monster dick to impregnate anyone, to be honest. That’s, that’s a tough sell. 

Craig: Silly. It’s silly and ridiculous. I, I, I agree with you. The mom jerking the kid off scene, I, it’s unnecessary, but I, I, I think it’s exactly what you said. I, I, I think it’s meant to be shocking and, and outrageous.

Uh, and I think it was very intentional. And whatever. I don’t care. Like, I’m not shocked by that. Like- 

Todd: No. … 

Craig: it, it almost seems somewhat predictable in a movie like this. 

Todd: That’s, I think what I’m saying, that’s kind of what bothered me. Like I thought, “Oh, they’re doing this again,” except they’re just doing it to do it.

Like it just, to be shocking because, oh, it’s, you know, there’s some, we’re gonna throw some sort of incest in here or whatever because it’s a k- kooky family with the mutation and the crazy mom. And I mean, I’ve seen this before. 

Craig: Plus, it doesn’t even make any logical sense. Like- Yeah. … if you, if you want your monstrous son to go rape someone and impregnate them, don’t jerk them off.

Oh. 

Todd: That is counterproductive. 

Craig: Yeah. That doesn’t even make any sense. 

Todd: Exactly. Yep. 

Craig: Anyway. Anyway, I don’t know. So yeah, so the, the, the, the three Scooby Gang are in there and like Powell and knocks out Maria, so Maria’s unconscious. And then the two fun people just get killed kind of unceremoniously, like really quickly.

Yeah. I don’t even remember how Natalie gets killed. I remember that the guy, the ex- boyfriend or whatever, has some kind of, I don’t know, weapon, whatever, some kind of stick or whatever. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s a, it’s like a bat with nails in it. 

Craig: Well, the, the bat guy, but the, the good guy, the, the boyfriend- 

Todd: Oh. Yeah, he’s like a collapsible baton, you know, 

Craig: like- Yeah, a baton.

That’s what I was looking for. He has like a baton, but the, the bad guy’s like, “Yeah, I have a bat with nails in it. ” He just hits him in the head, like … 

Todd: Yeah. Well, I didn’t understand the scene either because they’re, the five of them are standing there at one end of the hallway, big hulking monster way down at the other end of the hallway.

Craig: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Todd: And the dude in the wheelchair is like, “Um, I, I know another way.” And they’re like, “Okay, we’re gonna go. ” So just fucking go. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: All four of them go. And then Ryan, the boyfriend of the sister is like, “No, I’m gonna, I’m gonna take care of this. ” They’re like, “No, come with us.” He’s like, “No, don’t worry.

I got this. ” So he walks down the hallway towards the monster who’s still standing there. He’s not chasing them. Mm-hmm. Like, why didn’t you do that? So he’s got his baton, you know, like you said, it’s like he whips out his baton like I’m gonna beat you up. And then he pulls out the bat and that’s much worse.

And so it’s like, and then he gets whacked in the face. It takes quite a bit of effort for him to pull this out of this guy’s face. 

Craig: It’s pretty gross. I, I did like those effects. I will say that overall, that’s one of the reasons that I picked this movie because I think it’s silly and stupid. Like I don’t love this movie, but the effects are pretty good.

Like- They are. E- even Henry’s design, the design of this- 

Todd: Yeah. … 

Craig: creature is pretty good. There is one point in the movie where you can see his prosthetic hanging out of his clothes. But beyond that, he looks pretty good. And, and like this, the guy, Henry pulling that bat out of that guy’s face, that looks great.

Todd: It was fantastic. 

Craig: Yeah, it was really good. I was impressed. 

Todd: And honestly, a Tubi original, you know, usually a lot of these kind of original movies that are sh- usually shot on a budget don’t … There’s often quite a bit of, uh, CGI blood and effects in them. And I don’t think there was a bit of that in here. I really appreciated that everything seemed to be practical.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: That was good. Then he swings that bat into a plaster wall and ends up leaving it there because he can’t pull it out. I was like, “Really? This guy could pull this, this … ” I just didn’t understand something- Out of somebody’s 

Craig: head. 

Todd: So not out of 

Craig: the plaster wall. 

Todd: It was dumb. So anyway, they run and Ryan’s dead and, uh, Natalie gets it because she goes through a door and he happens to be on the other side and he puts his thumbs into her eyes.

Craig: Oh, that’s right. That was gross too. 

Todd: Super gross. Yeah. And sad because I really liked Natalie. I thought she was- I did too. Cute and spunky and she seemed to be the one who was gonna- 

Craig: There was, yeah, there was no reason for her to be there, but it was hilarious. Like, she was smarter- 

Todd: Yeah. … 

Craig: than Paola had been in avoiding this predatory mom.

And then when she found out that they were predatory and horrible, she’s like, “We’re fucking doing this. ” 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: We’re gonna find your sister. Like me, I have no emotional investment in you and all, but we’re fucking doing this. Yeah. Uh, I thought it was hilarious that I did, I loved her too, and I was sad that she died.

Todd: It sucked that she died. There’s a through line in this. And again, this is something that made me roll my eyes because it’s so cliche. After she had finished jerking Henry off, she had soothed him by opening up a locket that she has, and she had a tiny little music box on the locket, and it, you know, it’s this whole music soothes the Savage Beast thing.

Craig: Sure. 

Todd: And as soon as her mom’s, his mom sings to him, he quiets down and he calms down. And throughout the whole movie, there are moments where some music come, comes on or something, and he stops what he’s doing and he turns and he seems to be calmed. So ultimately, it turns out this is kind of how they can take care of him, you know, at the, at, toward the end.

The sister’s on the floor, she’s been hit a couple times and she’s been knocked out and, you know, Ryan is dead. Natalie’s- 

Craig: Dragged around, right? 

Todd: Ryan’s been dr- yeah, Natalie’s got her eyes poked out and she’s dead. Eventually it really just comes down to the guy in the wheelchair and, and Paola and the monster and it looks like he’s got them cornered and then Natalie’s sister’s phone kicks on with the ringtone and, and her dad, they, they answer and it’s her dad.

And the ringtone soothes him and makes him stop. And they were singing a song to hit their dad earlier, and so they kick on and start singing that song to him. And of course, that soothes him too. Oh, and of coveally the dad can’t see, right, because he’s blind. Right, right. So he has no idea that he’s talking to a monster or the monster’s holding the phone or whatever.

So it’s all, it’s all pretty stagy and kind of, I don’t know. I thought it was all kind of cliche, but is, you know, whatever. This is how they’re gonna get out of it. 

Craig: Yeah. Uh, right. Like Maria wakes up just in time to sing- 

Todd: A duet. In harmony with her sister.

Craig: Oh, it’s, it’s silly. Oh, man. And I don’t remember … They neutralize him- 

Todd: mm-hmm. … 

Craig: in some way in that moment. 

So 

Todd: she gets behind him with the bat and she goes, “Sorry, Hunter, we were not a match and she waxed-That’s right. Shoulder with a bat.” We’re 

Craig: not a match. Oh, Jesus. I was, I was 

Todd: rolling 

Craig: my 

Todd: eyes 

Craig: at that 

Todd: too.

Craig: She hits him in the, she hits him in his big humpback and then- Yes. … somehow, somehow they, they, they get downstairs and then there’s a show off with the mom. 

Todd: Yes, that was shocking. For 

some 

Craig: reason. 

Todd: Mom’s awake and mom’s up there and mom has a gun now and, uh, she’s aiming it at them. And again, come on, you’re like three people.

Like, you could do something here. I know. Maybe because she has a gun. Just 

Craig: leave. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: There’s gotta be at least two doors. 

Todd: Go the other way 

Craig: out of there. 

Todd: Duck down behind the furniture and crawl out, you know, whatever. Oh my 

Craig: God. 

Todd: But anyway, mom shoots her sister in the shoulder. 

Craig: Yeah. She’s- And then for some reason, I don’t- Oh God.

You may have to remind me. She shoots her own, like, she reveals that he’s the g- the guy in the wheelchair who we like. He’s handsome and we like him and he’s got this romantic connection with Paula. Like, they honestly are ready to get married. Like- They are. Like, it’s ridic- Within 

Todd: five minutes. 

Craig: It’s so stupid.

It’s the 

Todd: dumbest little love connection. 

Craig: It’s so dumb. It’s so stupid. But the mom ends up shooting him somehow. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, she, it starts, she aims towards him and then, like, Paulo goes, “No,” and she dives, like, she’s gonna take the bullet or something? It’s a really bizarre scene. But yeah, he ends up getting shot.

Craig: He, right, so he’s dead. And then somehow, uh, I think Maria, the sister, attacks the mom- 

Todd: Yep, gets on top of her. 

Craig: But somehow, the mom grabs something, like a piece of pot. A broken bottle. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Yes, and slits her throat. Like, this movie is bleak. 

Todd: Yeah. Like- I did not see this coming. 

Craig: No, there was no reason for Maria to be killed.

Todd: Yeah. It 

Craig: was 

Todd: bad. 

Craig: How is the sole survivor of this whole horrible incident? 

Todd: She is. 

Craig: It’s terrible. It’s terrible. Her and I guess Henry, the, the monster, because- 

Todd: Yeah. … 

Craig: he, he comes downstairs, I guess. I mean, like, he’s not dead. He’s still, you know, I don’t know if he’s pulled the- He’s 

Todd: wounded or something, 

Craig: yeah.

He’s wounded, right, because, you know, the, the nail bat got him in the back or whatever, but he’s not dead. And he grabs his mom and, like, gives Paula a look like, “Get out of here.”

Todd: And then- 

Craig: And then he kills, he kills the mom, right? He 

Todd: goes to town on the mom. It is the coolest, most batshit crazy thing I’ve ever seen. 

Craig: Oh, that’s 

Todd: right. Grabs her by both wrists, pins her against the wall, snaps her, her wrists down. 

Craig: Both of them. 

Todd: L- j- sh- lifts her up high and her head goes through the ceiling, takes her down in the ground.

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: This woman should not even be talking anymore. 

Craig: She should not even be talking, but she says to him, “Catch her. Fuck her.” Like, she is so crazy. 

Todd: So obsessed with this, yeah. And then he comes over and just starts stomping on her face. 

Craig: Yep. 

Todd: Oh, God. And the sound effects were … I mean, everything was pretty brutal.

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: Yeah, really brutal. 

Craig: It was wild. I, I, I’m, like, I don’t know. I, I feel like I’ve kind of gotten your take on it, but genuinely, this was a movie that I saw, and I thought, “I wonder what Todd would think of this. ” Um, so, so I’m curious, like, w- w- what’s your take on it? 

Todd: Overall, I think it’s pretty dumb. Overall, I think it’s pretty cliche.

I don’t think it really treads new ground at all, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I, maybe the whole catfishing thing, uh, even that’s not terribly new. I don’t know, with Tinder- Sure, sure. … maybe, but, but for just being a pretty typical movie like this, it had its moments. Uh, there’s so much of it was so stupid, so much of it was like, why are you doing what you’re doing?

Why aren’t you just wandering away? Why didn’t you come to the house with some police when you figured out that your sister was there, you know? Right. Why aren’t you just walking out the door? Like, there’s a lot of those things in the movie. So you, it requires a big suspension, disbelief. And I had to just constantly remind myself, “Yeah, well, I mean, if they did that, then there wouldn’t be a horror movie, would there?”

You know? Right, 

Craig: right. 

Todd: So, you know, you go with it, but there were these moments that just were shocking and kind of fun, and I love the practical effects. I really liked the Henry Monster, and I could almost conjure up, I think, the sympathy they were trying to go for- 

Craig: mm-hmm. … 

Todd: with this guy. I mean, conceptually, I get it.

Again, we’ve seen this before. I mean, it’s as old as Frankenstein. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: So it’s, it’s, again, it’s nothing new, and I knew they were gonna go that way, and of course I knew I was supposed to feel that way, and then I kinda did for a little while. But the movie was too dumb to really get me emotionally. But yeah, I, I, yeah, it was, it was a fun watch.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I, I would never have picked this movie out myself. Uh- I know. I definitely wouldn’t have. And this is also a movie I would’ve watched for 10 or 15 minutes and probably flipped off if I wasn’t doing it for the podcast, because I would’ve been like, it’s just kinda dumb and typical. I wouldn’t have expected any twists or turns, and there really weren’t any, except for the whole, “Oh, he’s my brother too,” kind of thing.

Craig: Right, right. 

Todd: But, but yeah, other than that, it was a fun, dumb w- dumb watch with a wild ride at the end. So if that’s what you’re looking for, I’d do it. And practical effects, great. 

Craig: Yeah. I, I, I, that’s, honestly, more often than not, I, I am just looking for an escape from everything that seems so serious. 

Todd: Right.

Craig: And don’t get me wrong, I, I enjoy a good, serious movie, a thoughtful, artful movie. I, I do enjoy that. But something like this, like, yeah, it was, it was dumb. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But in the way that … It was fun. Like, I- Yeah. 

Todd: Fun and 

Craig: dumb. I, yeah, I felt like it was really fun and I honestly thought that overall it was well done.

It was well made. Like it- Yeah. It, it doesn’t feel, it doesn’t feel cheap. 

Todd: Nope. 

Craig: The acting’s good, the effects are pretty good. 

Todd: Cinematography’s solid, you know? 

Craig: I think so. I, yeah, I think so. And, and I feel like that’s … I don’t wanna say it’s a rare find, but it’s nice and surprising when I find one. And I don’t typically get to share these movies with a lot of people.

There’s you and there’s Heather, and I made Alan watch this, and it was so, uh, it was so funny. I just kept looking at him and smiling like, “You don’t hate it. ” Like, it was, it was, it was fine for something to be on while we were hanging out and playing cards, you know, 

Todd: like- I was just gonna say, yeah, this seems like the kind of movie that you would have on while you’re grading papers or just in the background while you’re doing housework or something.

Yeah. 

Craig: Right, right, right. And, and I enjoyed it for that reason and I’m, I’m glad that I picked it and it was fun to talk about with you. I 

Todd: really was. 

Craig: Uh, so yeah. So, and again, it’s on Tubi, Tubi is free. Yes, you have to watch commercials, but, uh- 

Todd: Not if you have an ad blocker. 

Craig: Well, all right. Look at you fancy.

But yeah, it, uh, I, I would recommend it. I mean, go in knowing what you’re getting into, but, but it’s, it’s fun and goofy and stupid and light and, yeah. I, I, I liked it overall. 

Todd: Yeah, me too. Thank you guys so much for, uh, bearing with us this season as we’ve had a bit of a more irregular schedule than usual.

That’s my fault for just life has been happening lately and I’ve just been a little slower getting those episodes out to the general public. However, if you were a patron, you would have known that we’ve been recording all along- Yep. … and you get those episodes before everybody else. In fact, you basically get them a couple days after we’ve recorded them.

So if that interests you and you want the entire unedited phone calls of, of our episodes well before they’re edited and put out there to the world, go to patreon.com/chainsawpodcast and for only five bucks a month you get access to that, you get access to minisodes that we put up. We have a great book club going on back there where we do video chat discussions of horror books every couple of weeks.

We have just a lot of fun back there with our patrons and, uh, it’s pretty cheap. Five bucks a month, we’ll get you in there. If this sounds interesting to you, go check it out. Patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. It’s also linked to from our website, which is chainsawhorror.com. Go there, leave us a message or just search for two guys on a chainsaw podcast on Google, and you’ll find us on Instagram, you’ll find us on Facebook, and lots of ways to get in contact with us.

Send us your requests, and yeah, just let us know what you thought of this. Put up a review if you’re, if you’re so inclined, as long as it’s positive. Until next time, I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We picked the 1989 comedy slasher ‘Cutting Class’ because we needed something lighter, and it turned into a confusing-but-entertaining watch loaded with tonal whiplash, juvenile jokes, and some genuinely memorable kills.

We talk about the oddball cast—especially a very young Brad Pitt—plus Jill Schoelen, Martin Mull, and Roddy McDowell, and why so many scenes feel bizarrely staged or played too straight for the gags. From killer POV moments and death-by-kiln to the Xerox kill and that trampoline flag impalement, the movie delivers creative set pieces even when the plot and character motivations don’t track. It’s not a good movie, but we still had fun with it and think it plays best with friends.

Episode 476, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podacst

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. And 

Craig: I’m Craig. 

Todd: Well, this week it was my turn to pick and I thought we needed to go with something kind of light. I don’t know about you, but I’ve been just feeling a little weird and down lately. I think mostly it’s the news. I wasn’t in the mood for a real bleak horror movie or anything like that.

I wanted something that we could kind of have fun with. And I had this thing on my list that had been on my list for a while, and I don’t know if it was, uh, one of our more recent episodes that. Subconsciously spurred me to go back to this, but I chose 1989’s Cutting Class, and the reason I had this on my list is number one, at the time I put it on there, I had never heard of it before.

I knew I had never seen it before, but it has quite a lineup of stars in it, including a very, very, very young Brad Pitt. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: In one of his first screen rolls out, you know, outside of television. I didn’t really know much about it. I, I purposely went into this really not reading anything about it. I knew it was billed as a comedy slasher film, and so I kind of was figuring it would be like a horror comedy and I thought it would be fun and light for, and I imagined you hadn’t seen it before.

So had you seen it before? 

Craig: I don’t remember. It’s surprise, it would surprise me if I hadn’t just because. Of the fact that Brad Pitt is in it. Not like I’m a huge Brad Pitt fan or anything, but I like watching these old horror movies with people who then went on to have a lot of fame. 

Todd: Yeah, there’s so many.

Craig: Yeah. And, and there are, and there are other good people in this too. Not necessarily a-listers, but people, you’re definitely gonna recognize some of them more than others, but still. But if I have seen it. I didn’t remember it, so maybe I haven’t, ’cause I literally remembered nothing about it. 

Todd: Okay, cool.

Yeah, so when I proposed it, you were, you weren’t just like, oh yeah, that one you just really didn’t, didn’t know. 

Craig: No, no. I mean, I, I’ve known about it. I’ve been curious because it’s always shown up on those before they were stars horror movie lists. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: With like, you know, Matthew McConaughey and Renee Zellweger and George Clooney and a bazillion other people who did horror before.

Hitting it big. So I knew it existed and I had seen like maybe short clips of him in it, but I don’t think I’d seen it. 

Todd: Okay, cool. Well, I’m so glad we’re talking about it because I had so much fun watching this. I have housemates with me right now for this month or so, and I told them I we’re watching a movie for the podcast if you wanna watch it.

And we had a blast laughing at this film. One of the biggest things I’m not quite sure of, I know it’s. It’s labeled as a horror comedy. I wasn’t sure how seriously we were supposed to take it. It is that bizarre. 

Craig: It was hard. Yeah. I, I couldn’t, I couldn’t figure, I couldn’t figure out the balance either, because it’s not goofy funny most of the time, but then they throw in really goofy jokes and they kind of don’t land like they, it doesn’t match up tonally.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like there’s a bunch of like dick jokes and stuff that kind of come out of nowhere and I’m like. Are we in the same movie like this is? I 

Todd: know, 

Craig: it’s weird. 

Todd: It really is weird. You know, that’s the weird thing. You know, we’ve done movies before that we suspected were only labeled comedies after. They were received as comedies, movies that were meant to be serious, but they were so inept that they are quite silly.

And then later on it’s like, oh, we meant for it to be silly all along. Ha ha, we’ve done horror comedies that just weren’t very funny. Or like you said, like didn’t quite land. And of course a lot of the horror that we’ve covered is low budget and ineptly done, and it’s unintentionally funny, and that is its own.

You know, genre. I, I’m really not sure where this fits in, like you said it just because it’s just so tonally inconsistent throughout. 

Craig: Yeah. Well this is the director’s first and only I think, directing credit, but he had done some serious stuff. Like didn’t he do like some writing on deliverance? I think maybe.

Todd: Yeah. He did some writing on, well, you’re talking about the right, yeah. The director was a additional crew on deliverance. 

Craig: Okay. Okay. 

Todd: The writer. 

Craig: The writer. Well, what I was going to say, we’re talking, you’re talking about like the, the humor and the jokes and stuff the writer went on to do salute your shorts.

Yeah. And I think that that tells you everything that you need to know. Maybe about the humor here. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: It’s kind of juvenile humor and I don’t know why it’s, doesn’t land. I think some of it, I don’t know. I think it’s a combination of a lot of things. The direction, the acting. It’s just like they, they’re, they’re not sure of what tone they’re going for.

Todd: Yeah. Oddly enough, the director, this is only his. Second movie. He’s uncredited as a director on Exorcist two. 

Craig: Okay. 

Todd: Both a writer and a director. I’m not sure what that means. You know, you never, you, you wonder what his involvement was if he was uncredited Right, 

Craig: right. 

Todd: Of his second unit director. He did little things like who knows what he did, but this was his only movie that he’s ever directed since then.

Although he did write screenplay for Excalibur and the Emerald Forest. Two movies I’m, I’m familiar with, but. That’s about it. So yeah, the, these two guys who wrote it and directed it didn’t really go on to do anything else we can judge this against necessarily, except, like you said, salute your shorts.

Craig: And I liked salute your shorts, but it was really, I mean, the whole point of it was it was juvenile, it’s 

Todd: dumb, 

Craig: right? 

Todd: But this isn’t that either, so, 

Craig: but it is in places. Okay, so this is also like the third Jill Solan movie. We’ve done an. In a row, like, I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah, I swear. Total coincidence. 

Craig: It’s crazy.

She’s the lead in this movie, also Uhhuh, and her name is Paula, and she was reluctant to do the movie because she didn’t like the script, but I guess she was. Uh, brought in because she heard that Martin Mull and who’s the other big guy? Roddy McDowell. 

Todd: Roddy McDowell. Yeah. 

Craig: We’re both going to be in it. 

Todd: We probably know him best from Fright Night.

He was the, like the washed up actor, a horror host in that one. And, but I mean, he’s a veteran. 

Craig: Yeah. And he’s done a million things. 

Todd: Yeah. He is a veteran of the, of the stage and screen. Like he’s, 

Craig: and, and Martin Muell is a veteran comedic actor. Right? You know? Uh 

Todd: oh. Yeah. 

Craig: He’s done all of the like, oh, I can’t think of the guy’s name, but the Guffman Best in show type movies and mm-hmm.

He was on Roseanne and stuff. Hilarious. And these guys, like I said, not necessarily a-list, but reputable actors that people would definitely know. So I could understand why. She’d be like, okay, I’ll do, if they’re gonna do it, I’ll do it. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I wish that she. Had a crystal ball and could have seen into the future what these guys were going to do in this movie, because I think she would’ve reconsidered it.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: there’s, there’s one point in the movie where Roddy McDowell is in a, like a Chiquita banana wig looking into a mirror and he says, what are you doing? And I’m like, that is exactly right. What are you doing Roddy Mcow doing in this movie? Wow. That must’ve been a good check. Oh, it must’ve been a good check for a day’s work for each of them.

Todd: Oh my God. I was so embarrassed for Roddy McDowell in this. Not that he performed poorly. No, but what he was given to do was just like, I can’t even begin to describe it. We will eventually, but yeah. Very strange. Uh, and, and I wanted to even think, is this supposed to be parod? Slasher. Is this supposed to be like a, a comedy in that it’s a parodying slasher films?

I don’t know. It’s just so weird. The dialogue is strange too. You know, the opening credits are just like five minutes of this guy, of this paper boy throwing papers and eventually we get in on Paula and her dad. As you said, 

Clip: Martin Mul Bill, 

Todd: one of the, one of the first lines of the whole movie is he comes out and she’s like.

Daddy, he asked her to go. If she wants to come hunting with him or something, he’s gonna go hunting for like a week. 

Clip: Honey, this is the first time I’ve left you alone, 

Bernie. I should be worried. Daddy, you are a great district attorney, but you’re a lousy hunter, 

Todd: Jesus Christ, and he ends up going on his little hunting trip by himself and some unknown person shoots him with an arrow in the chest and he falls down in the swamp.

Craig: Yeah, this is, these are the first minutes of the movie and I. Thought, wow. Martin Mole was smart. Like, yeah, sign on for that. Get the check. I thought, I can’t believe they’re killing off the dad in the first scene. But it’s, and and just describing it doesn’t do it in any justice ’cause it’s all goofy. Like, yeah, he’s dressed ridiculously in, you know, all this hunting gear and like he wants to bag a mallard and he goes to like the bait shop and they.

Rub dirt on him, so he’ll smell like, like, it’s just all very silly. 

Todd: Yeah. There’s a character there who we never see again, who, it seems like they’re setting him up for something. Right. He takes him outside and he smears dirt on him and whatnot, and, and then we don’t, I don’t think we ever see that guy again.

It, yeah, it’s very silly. 

Craig: I, but I’m reading it in my notes and I’m thinking the way that it’s reading on the page, it sounds. Like a spoof, but it’s not shot like one, like it’s shot. Seriously. Like. Then we’re introduced to Dwight, played by a very young Brad Pitt, and he’s just the pretty douche bag from all of these movies and he drives his fast car around and he almost runs over a little kid and then like jokes about it.

Todd: Yeah. That was a strangely set up scene. Ugh. I mean, it was, it was just kind of dumb, right? The little kid on his Hot Wheels, who comes right out into the middle of the road, like you can see where this is going a mile away, and then he’s at school and his friend Brian is there and they exchanged some looks and I thought, okay, this is this guy.

They don’t like each other. Like Brad Pitts the nice guy Brian is. 

Craig: The broody. 

Todd: Brad Pitts the douche bag. Yeah. Brian’s the moody dude. And they both kind of are interested in Paula because Brian keeps giving her these looks, which are actually kind of creepy. 

Craig: Yeah, super creepy. 

Todd: And Brian is climbing the rope and Dwight comes over and as he starts yanking the rope around to mess with Brian and Brian falls off the rope and the dick coach comes over and yells at Brian.

For falling off the rope, I guess. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And then later there at a hotdog place, one of those places where you could park and eat. This whole seed was ridiculous. 

Craig: I know, that’s what I’m saying. Like the right, like it seems like, I don’t know. Okay. So imagine this. Imagine you take Jill Solan out of this role and you put a young Anna Ferris in it.

I think that if they had played the comedy up more. It wouldn’t have been a lot more funny, but they’re just playing it straight. So when, when, I don’t know. Brad Pitt shows up and there’s some banter about her wanting his ring. Yeah. But he can, he’ll never give up his family ring or something. And he’s like, I’m gonna go get some food.

Do you want anything? And she’s like, yeah, I’m really in the mood for a hot dog. What? 

Todd: The way she says it, right? 

Craig: She says it kind of suggestively, but not really funny. 

Todd: Not suggestively enough. Yeah. 

Craig: To be funny and right. And then she’s like, what? I’m hungry. And then he walks away and then the other guy, Brian shows up and he is like, here, you can have my hot dog.

Like, come on. 

Todd: To which Brad Pitt shows up, gets really angry, tells her to get in the car, like, you know, like he’s her master to which she dutifully obeys, gets in the car, rolls up the window, and he tells him off. And again, it’s just like the whole district attorney line. This dialogue between the two of them is clearly meant for us to understand that Brian has been in a mental hospital.

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: he’s back from a mental hospital for some unknown thing, but Dwight is making. Fun of him and and insulting him and the dialogue is stilted And Pitt’s acting is a little early. Right? It’s fine. A little early in his career. It’s, it’s fine. It’s all fine, but there’s definitely a big contrast between the two of them.

Craig: Sure. 

Todd: Anyway, and so he drives off. What we are going to find out later is that. They’re actually friends, 

Craig: or they used to be before Brian went into the hospital. 

Todd: Yeah. And if this should have been established in some way early on, I think 

Craig: Well, right, because just Dwight is outwardly mean to him initially.

Like he, he, yeah, he seems like he’s bullying him. You would never guess that they were friends. But, 

Todd: and Brian’s just quiet and creepy and creeping on his girlfriend. You know, it’s like it’s setting us up for this one thing and then suddenly we get new information that just changes that whole dynamic for us.

Craig: Right? And, and that’s, that’s later. And it, but it’s just so abrupt. It’s just so abrupt. They seem adversarial throughout the whole movie. And then there’s just one scene and I don’t wanna jump to it ’cause. Much later, but where it’s just like, oh yeah, we’re pals. Remember? Like, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: Anyway. Yeah, I, yeah. Okay.

So we find that out and then one of the weirdest, 

Todd: oh my God, 

Craig: and it’s doubly weird because it happens twice. Paula has a guy at her house. In this case it’s Dwight, and for some reason he. Puts on all of her dad’s clothes to seduce her. 

Todd: His suit? Yes. 

Craig: What, what would make that sexy in any way? 

Todd: Oh my God. 

Craig: And the suit’s like large on him.

So he goes, your, your dad’s a little bit bigger than me. But I’m bigger where it counts. Gross, like, 

Todd: yeah. And he lifts up. He lifts up his pants to make it perfectly clear, it looks down at his dick while they’re in bed, which causes her to jump on him. Oh my God, that’s 

Craig: so weird and gross. Weird. Whose idea was that?

Todd: Oh my God, my gosh. We were laughing. Hysterically, but we were also very confused. And then you get to Roddy McDowell Uhhuh, we’re at school and he’s the principal and it’s the, he’s the principal from Greece, you know where he, half of his shtick is, he’s getting on the intercom and he’s talking. To the students.

Do you remember those days? I don’t think they exist anymore. Right. Where all this information is conveyed over the school intercom, or is that still the case? 

Craig: Well, we still have one. They do like the announce, do it announcements and stuff over it. Yeah. 

Todd: In the morning, do they do like pledge of allegiance and things too?

Craig: Yes, it’s man, it’s legally mandated. Isn’t that gross? 

Todd: It is gross. I did not realize that was still a thing. Do you know that when I was in middle school? For reasons I still don’t understand. For some reason, the principal of the school had singled me out and asked me to come in and start doing the announcements.

For the school. So I did the Pledge of Allegiance and the announcements in the mornings of my middle school at the worst possible time for an adolescent boy to be speaking over the air to the entire school 

society. That’s funny. 

Todd: There were definitely moments where I would be like, and today at lunch, and I’d have to come back to a classroom full of kids who hated me.

Anyway. Hey Todd, welcome back. That’s 

Craig: hilarious.

Oh, it’s 

Todd: funny. Oh my God. Oh, the, 

Craig: the, the thing that the, so Roddy McDowell, this is his introduction. This is the first time you see him and like it, the camera pans to him in front of the microphone, and the very first thing that he does is he pulls a. Sock off of the microphone and sniffs it and it’s like, ah, what the fuck?

Like I 

Todd: still don’t understand that. 

Craig: What is happening? Whose sock is that? I feel like there are, there are, especially with him, but throughout the movie, there are a lot of things that are just apropos of nothing. Yeah. Like just something strange and bizarre that. Is not important and is never going to be explained, but ugh, what is happening?

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: and, and then apparently at this high school, they use students as nude models. Not really nude, but as body models for their art class, which I thought she was going to get naked. I thought that that’s why I 

Todd: thought so too. Yeah. 

Craig: Brad Pitt was mad at her for a second, but yeah, Jill Sch wasn’t getting naked for this movie.

Todd: All of the adult. Men in this movie are gross. 

Craig: The, the teachers, well, first of all, all of the teachers in this high school are men. And the principal, the only woman I think is the vice principal. And yes, every single one of them is a lectures. Disgusting. Perv. 

Todd: Yeah. The, the art teacher, and again, I wasn’t sure how he was playing this at first.

I’m like, oh, he’s a lets perv, but then he’s just kind of strict. I was having a hard time nailing that one down. Anyway, he’s got a small role. She comes into the class and she is dressed in like a leotard, and he’s talking about how, okay, now you’re gonna look at the way the muscles are and the tone and all that, and the human body here.

Pick up this apple and he drops an apple in front of her so that she can bend over. And pick it up. And he’s kinda leering at her a bit while he does it, but he’s also talking to the class and he is walking around her and it’s like, look at the form and everything like that. And then out of nowhere, Brian shows up and he’s in the class.

He’s not a member of the class. But he’s snuck in. He’s been leering around the background. Does this guy just follow her around at school and sneak around? 

Craig: It seems that way he can like predetermine where she’s going to be because oftentimes he’ll just happen to be, yeah, 

Todd: yeah, exactly. He just sort of happened to be there and the, he’s kind of like stumbles forward, almost topples a statue, like a Venus statue or something over, and of course.

He’s wraps his arms around it and he is grabbing its boobs to pull it up and the art teacher goes, oh, it seems like you wanna be part of this class too. Okay, why don’t you come over here? Pulls him in, and then has her hold the apple up and have him reach for it. I don’t know. This guy’s like doesn’t have a lesson plan.

I think he’s just winging it here. But this puts the two of them together face to face, and while the teacher’s talking on and on, there’s this. Moment between the two of them where it looks like they’re about to kiss. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And that was weird because again, the whole, we know that she’s got this boyfriend, we know he’s insanely jealous, but he’s be creepily leering at her.

And now it feels like she’s leaning into it a bit. 

Craig: Yeah. It doesn’t really make any sense. He’s super creepy. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: he’s super creepy. He has. As far as I know, an unexplained scratch on his face throughout the whole movie. Do do we know what that was from? 

Todd: No, I don’t think so. 

Craig: He wears the same clothes every day, so he’s presumably homeless.

He follows her around everywhere she goes and just stares at her with a glaring emotionless. Stare that she like returns with batting eyes and smiles like, Ew. Like what about this is appealing to you? I mean, not that Brad Pitt is that much better, like he’s kind of dumb and douchey or whatever, but he’s not a big creeper.

Ugh. 

Todd: Yeah. Ugh. So then I think she walks outta the art classroom. Maybe she’s just walking down the hallway and the principal swings by and is like, stop by my office, will you? She says, why? And he is like, it’s a surprise. And I was like, what? 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Are we going there too? And so she goes into the principal’s office and at this point I kind of have to point out the sound is bad at moments of this movie.

Like it feels like they didn’t do audio cleanup or they didn’t have the mics close to them. And they’re, they’re moments where it’s just really echoy and sometimes even hard to hear, which makes the movie feel a little cheap at times. And this is one anyway, she ends up going to the principal’s office.

And the minute she steps in, he is just checking her out. He hands her a dress, and I guess it was the uniform. 

Craig: He’s hiding behind a plant at first. 

Todd: Oh God, yes, 

Craig: that’s right. A weirdo 

Todd: like, oh, she’s coming. She comes in, he comes out and he gives her this dress as though it’s like a gift. 

Craig: I think it was a cheerleading uniform, wasn’t it?

Todd: It is, but the way he presents it, it’s like, and I know you’ve been waiting for this. Here you go. I wanted to give it to you special. He’s, she’s like, oh, thank you very much. And he’s like, well, you’d like to put it on, wouldn’t you? And she’s like, oh. And he’s like, oh, that’s okay. You can put it on. I’ll turn away.

Oh God. And, but of course he doesn’t. She’s bending over as he’s checking out her underwear. It happens a couple times. Oh, I just, 

Craig: those are pretty leering shots too, like Oh 

Todd: yeah. They were very leering shots. We were checking out her underwear too, as the audience member, and it didn’t make me feel the least bit comfortable.

No, 

Craig: it was, it was. It felt dirty. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: that it cuts to the art teacher who’s cleaning out the kiln, 

Todd: the walk-in kiln. 

Craig: Right, right. And so like, he’s already two thirds of the way in there, so kind of just like killer POV can just kind of nudge him in and close the door, and then he gets burnt up in there.

Todd: That was cool actually. I was like, oh, wow, I, I thought that was cool. It’s kind of scary. The music was good. The idea of this guy burning up in a kiln was pretty freaky. I liked that we got some killer POV, and it happens a few times. So somebody shot her dad, somebody pushed the art teacher in a kiln.

Who’s taking their revenge and why? We’re not 

Craig: right. 

Todd: We’re really not sure at this point. Could it be Brian? Could it be jealous? Dwight? 

Craig: Right? Dwight? Right. 

Todd: But neither of them feel like appropriate suspects at this point. 

Craig: Well, Brian’s too obvious. And then if it’s, if Brian’s too obvious, then that makes Dwight too obvious.

And then they are also throwing in like there’s a really spooky custodian who’s like aggressively creepy for absolutely no reason. 

Todd: Oh yeah. I think he’s supposed to be like a dude with PTSD or something. ’cause he’s kind of dressed in military gear and he kind of shouts things around almost like he’s in the military.

But God, if if this guy was in your school for one hour, you’d fire him. I don’t know why he’s employed at this school. 

Craig: There are a lot and, and there are like, it could be Roddy McDowell ’cause he’s weird and creepy and I have to admit that it, like I was never sure 

Todd: to that the movie gets some credit, but also it feels like they’re throwing out.

Aggressive red herrings to the point where we can’t necessarily get a handle on anybody’s character. Even Brad Pitt’s character, Dwight, you flip flop between thinking, oh, he’s not really that bad to like, oh, he’s clearly a douche bag. This scene with him and his girlfriend in the car, there’s probably two or three of them where there’s.

They’re sitting in the car they’re trying to make out or something like that, and they’re flirty and she’s nice and she’s responsive. And then they have some kind of fight. I don’t remember what it was about. Maybe she didn’t wanna make out in the middle of the day, Uhhuh. And so he leaps out and he’s angry.

He’s drinking beer right there on the school property. And he walks away, 

Dwight, come on. Don’t be mad.

Craig: Hey, I don’t get mad. 

I get even. 

Todd: Okay. 

Craig: Yeah. What does that even mean? 

Todd: Right? 

Craig: What do 

Todd: you get even? What are you 

Craig: gonna do? Reject her, like right, 

Todd: get even with her. What the hell, right? So yeah, everyone’s creeping on Paula. 

Craig: Paula is doing her homework. It’s nighttime now, and she hears like a knock on the door and she answers the door and there’s nobody there.

But Brian is clearly. Like creeping on her from behind a bush across the street. 

Todd: Yeah. Like a cartoon character. 

Craig: Yeah. And she kind of Googles like he and, and just goes back in to do her homework. Like, oh, isn’t that cute? He’s stalking me. 

Todd: And then the camera cuts to the, the exact same scene. I really think it was the same footage of her doing her homework at the table.

Another knock comes on the door and when she opens it, it’s Brad Pitt and two chicks, 

Craig: well, 

Todd: like her friend and somebody else. Right. 

Craig: No, it’s, it’s, it’s another, a couple. It’s a guy and a girl. Not that it really matters. 

Todd: Oh, that’s right. 

Craig: She’s got a redhead friend and then they’ve got another goofy guy friend.

Todd: Yeah. And they have a weird scene to, like, everything about this scene was awkward. I, I just remember it. I don’t have any notes about it. I just remember being strange because for some reason at this point, Brad Pitt is begging her for her key to the records of the school. And why does she have this? 

Craig: We actually saw the principal give it to her, but I don’t remember why.

No. Why on earth would she need the key? To the files. Like I could understand like maybe if she needed the key to the school so that she could let the cheerleading team in or something into something practice or something. Yeah. Right. But specifically the files, that was really odd. 

Todd: She wasn’t the daughter of the principal, was she?

Craig: No, her dad was the prosecuting attorney. 

Todd: So the next thing you know, there’s sneaking into the school, and I have no idea why 

Craig: they wanna look at Brian’s files. 

Todd: Yeah, but I mean, it’s kind of a very impulsive thing, right? I guess. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: I guess. ’cause he’s back, they wanna look at the files and figure out more.

Craig: Well, and he is weird. I don’t know. 

Todd: So they break into the school. The janitor’s still there. I mean, 

Craig: of course there’s a very breakfast club moment where they’re like barely, you know, running through the halls, barely getting, not being caught by the custodian. 

Todd: And then they, they pull out the records.

Suddenly Brian’s in there too. How did Brian appear? 

Craig: He’s well. Okay. Right. They, they go in there to this, you know, office. And, and the lights are off. And they turn the lights on and they’re looking around and at one point the camera moves over to the water cooler and it’s just Brian’s head behind the water cooler.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: So it looks like his giant head in the wa like, what was he sleeping in there? Like 

Todd: what? It’s, how did he fit? Behind the wa this water cooler, my, when we first see it is up against the wall. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: No, 

Craig: it 

Todd: didn’t any sense. And it’s just bubbling. Yeah. The next time we see it, suddenly his head is behind there and any idiot and, and her friend does go over to the water cooler to pour herself some water and doesn’t notice this guy.

Behind it, even though she’s staring right at it as she’s taking the, oh, it’s so dumb. Yeah, and that’s what I was like, is this supposed to be a comedy? It feels very cartoonish at this point. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I don’t know. 

Craig: I think it is, but I just don’t think it lands. You know, Brian’s file says that he’s a violent schizophrenic and that he’d been going through shock treatment.

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: And Dwight’s like, oh man. They shocked him every day like God. That sucks. That’s terrible. 

Todd: Brian’s school file is so detailed that it tells all of his medical history plus the exact voltage that he was shocked at every day. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. 

Todd: Even when they walk outta that room, Brian is around every corner.

Suddenly he disappears from the water cooler and reappears in the corner of a room that, uh, Paula wanders into. Then we cut to the swamp and Dad is still alive. 

Craig: Yeah. What? But even before that, like I just thought that it was hilarious. Like apparently an entire class is just going through a nature walk like in the swamp for no reason.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: Like some of them have net. And some of them are just walking around and the teacher is like trudging through the knee deep marsh. And it’s like there’s not a species in here. I can’t identify like are they on like a hunt? Like are they supposed trying to catch things and then show the teacher and he’ll tell them what they are.

But the teacher steps on the, what I thought was the corpse of Martin Mull, but then he wakes up. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I’m like, what? This is at least a day later and I couldn’t believe. 

Todd: Yeah. He’s been laying there all night, 

Craig: apparently, and I don’t know. They don’t see him except for it seems like Brian sees him. 

Todd: It, it appears to be, it’s kind of a fake out, right?

Like Brian walks past and then he kind of pauses. He doesn’t turn around, but he pauses and he kind of looks down into the side. And at this time I think Martin Mole is sort of trying to cry out, but you can barely hear it. And I think the T Steer even says Mother Nature cries to you. You know, it’s just jokey.

But then Brian bends down and he picks up a snake. So it’s like, right. No, he actually was. WA was interested in a snake that was down there and he walks off with the snake, so, 

Craig: right. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s a bit of a fake out moment. And then we are in the cheerleaders dressing room and no nudity. 

Craig: Not yet. There are some boobs later.

I think 

Todd: there will be no, there will be two boobs later of, but, but we were, we were shocked at this moment. Like all of us turned to each other and were like, almost said at the same time. Cheerleader’s dressing room and nobody’s naked. Very unusual, but they’re at the game. They’re at the God this’s the basketball game.

Big game. Oh my God, this is so all so bad. It is all so bad. Dad has taken Dwight aside. I think there was, there was a little scene where the dad was talking to this dude who looked very familiar. I looked him up. This black actor, Alexander Folk I think, who played Mr. Nicholson, who’s this recruiter. Who suddenly, again, it’s just like this sudden thing that is introduced is that now it’s very, very important to Dwight’s dad that Dwight get 

Craig: a basketball scholarship 

Todd: and this guy is there to watch the game, to see his performance and this guy’s been in Dream Girls, he’s been in all over television.

I don’t know, did you recognize him? I recognize his face. I was like, I’ve seen this guy in a lot of stuff and 

Craig: no, 

Todd: he’s been mostly on television and, and he was in the Last Star Fighter Christmas vacation Slumber Party, massacre three house. 

Craig: Oh yeah. I think he was maybe the cop at the end of Christmas vacation.

That sounds 

Todd: right. He was indeed. That sounds right. Indeed. Yep. But yeah, so he’s there and Brad Pitt’s playing basketball. All this is really poorly shot, I thought. And there’s her friend, what was her friend’s name? 

Craig: Colleen. It doesn’t matter her, her dumb 

Todd: whatever. 

Craig: Redhead 

Todd: friend. Her dumb. Takes off her panties like I’m gonna cheer without panties on.

So they do some cheering, and of course the principal and a bunch of guys, adults are leering at them from the crowd, noticing they don’t have panties on. Eventually they sit in the bleachers and one of her Colleen’s boyfriends or something like that comes up from underneath and is like teasing them from.

Under the bleachers and she makes some comment about that and he says something and he’s grabbing at her legs and things like that. Anyway, there’s a fight on the court and Dwight blows his chances at getting recruited and his dad gets very, very angry and Brian is still creeping. And so just far, so far, I was actually kind of getting impatient with the movie because most of what we’ve really seen are like random antics and those two guys who got killed, that felt like forever ago, but now her friend gets.

Pulled under the bleachers 

Craig: and it was funny to me because. It made it seem like they had established that he could like tickle her legs or grab her legs or whatever. Yeah. So then when somebody, when it happened again, I was assuming, oh, she’s going to think it’s her boyfriend. Right. But it’s not 

Todd: Right.

Craig: And whoever it is grabs her and like, not violently, but not gently either, kind of pulls her down through the bleachers all the way down. 

Todd: It’s awkward. 

Craig: Well, and I thought this is. This is great. This is a great kill. You know, she’s gonna be surprised. It’s not her boyfriend, it’s the killer. I thought the boyfriend will probably already be dead.

No. It was the boyfriend pulling her down. They just both then happen to get killed down there. 

Todd: That’s right. She witnesses him getting his throat slit, which again, I thought this was actually a pretty good kill. 

Craig: I still liked it. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. She’s facing him. It’s real dark. There’s just light, you know, coming through that slit in the bleachers.

It’s coming across both of their faces. So you can’t see the killer, but you can see him dragging the knife across his boyfriend’s throat and she’s screaming, but it’s at the exact same time that everybody’s cheering because the game has been won. So everybody’s standing and everybody’s cheering. So it’s that.

Classic. Nobody can hear her scream while she stands there a foot away from her boyfriend getting a throat slit, which is horrifying. And of course, you know, she gets killed too. We don’t really see that part, but we know, we know she’s gone, 

Craig: right? 

Todd: So anyway, then the two love birds are meeting again in the car.

Brad and Brad Pitt and his girlfriend, and there’s this hilarious shot while they’re making out in the car where Brian’s head just slowly raises up in the window and looks in on them. 

Craig: Yeah, and then he pounds on the door and walks away, which they totally see. So yeah, it’s so weird that like he’s just stalking them all the time and they know it and, oh well, the creepy custodian.

This what bothered me too. The creepy custodian mops up the blood and like sniffs it and shit, but doesn’t really say anything. 

Todd: Doesn’t do anything. Doesn’t really say anything. 

Craig: No. And we find out that they know that these kids are missing. The art teacher is missing, and maybe another teacher, I don’t remember, but they know people are missing and he’s mopping up all this blood and he just doesn’t say anything.

Yeah. 

Todd: I mean, it 

Craig: doesn’t make any sense. 

Todd: Also, the blood’s in the middle of the court. I’m not sure how that works, but it’s kinda lazy. You know, the blood would be under the bleachers, not in the middle of the court mixed with popcorn. 

Craig: Right. Well then we get to the scene that I was referring to later where first you see for.

For reasons unknown. Dwight drives his really nice car into the Auto Shop Bay at school. If I drew, if I drove a really nice car like that, the last place that I would have it worked on would be in the auto shop at a high school. Like, doesn’t make any sense. 

Todd: Good point. 

Craig: Yeah. Um, 

Todd: probably not qualified to work on a car like that, honestly.

Craig: No. He, Dr. He drives it in there and the, the teacher with the whole other rest of the class is like, today we’re gonna learn about breaks. And then he marches away with the rest of the class and only Brian. Slides under the car and starts messing with the brakes. But then Dwight slides under there with them, with him, and this is when it’s like they were best friends before.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I mean, I, I, Brad Pitt had mentioned it once before, he had said something like, I know he used to be friends. I know he used to hung out, hang out, but that was before Brian was like, what? Before the hospital? He is like, yeah, whatever. So I mean, we kind of knew that there had been a connection, but here it seems like they were like besties.

Todd: Yes. And then the conversation they have was starting to shock me because then Brian turns him and says, remember that time under my dad’s car? They took that part out and put it back in. I never told anybody about that, and I was going, is this supposed to be like, were they messing around? Did you, did you get that feeling from their conversation?

Craig: What 

Todd: do you mean? Did you not feel that messing 

Craig: around? 

Todd: Dude, I thought there was some serious homosexual con I boys experimenting or something going on with this, with this 

Craig: talk. I, yeah. I, well, I didn’t, I don’t, I didn’t read innuendo into that. I think what they, what he said was, remember that time we took my dad’s car apart and we didn’t put one part back in, I think is what he said.

Todd: Oh, no, dude. No. That’s not how, exactly how it went. 

Craig: Well, anyway, I, I see what you’re saying. I got the vibe, but I didn’t write down, I didn’t write down the dialogue, so I’ll take your word on it. But in my notes, I ra I wrote, wait. They tried to kill Brian’s dad. Right? 

Todd: I know. 

Craig: And we weren’t paying very, like I was paying attention, but I was also very sick and I wasn’t at the top of my game because that newspaper, the headline on the newspaper in the opening credits is Boy Who Killed Father Released From Hospital.

Todd: Yes. So now it. It seems like Dwight was an accomplice in this act of trying to kill Brian’s dad, and he took the, Brian took the full heat for it. That’s kind of what he’s saying, right? I never told anybody. 

Craig: Yeah, I guess it’s so weird. 

Todd: It’s just, it’s a lot to lay on you in a casual conversation between these two guys, especially when they’re having a moment.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: I didn’t, I really didn’t know how to take that, but none of it felt good. 

Craig: No, it felt really strange. 

Todd: It’s confusing. 

Craig: At this point, I really started to feel like, I felt like Dwight was set up as a douche bag from the beginning, and at this point I started to feel sorry for him because Yeah, 

Todd: me 

Craig: too.

His dad was a real douche bag to him, and now there’s another scene where a teacher. Yells at him again for really no reason. And these teachers have been really kind of picking on him 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: The whole time. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And at first, you know, he’s kind of, you know, a jackass and you kind of think he deserves it or whatever.

But no, it really kind of seems like they’re singling him out and picking on him. Mm-hmm. And Brian actually stands up for him and they end up both getting kicked out of class and like they’re in the hallway. And Brian’s like, once friends always. Friends, right? 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And, and I see what you mean. Like I thought there is there more to this relationship than what we know.

I really did question that at some point and I, ugh, but I don’t know. I, I, I figured not, I figured shortly if that were the case, I would’ve known about it going in. The Brad Pitt Homo erotic, you know, horror movie that he made before. Oh. But uh, 

Todd: it gets those overtones here a little bit. I mean, I don’t think I was wrong in reading a little bit into this, but it doesn’t go anywhere, so maybe it was just, anyway, who cares that, that was that.

And they’re both sent to Mrs. Knox’s room where she has a very bizarre conversation with Brian. It’s so off. 

I think you’re like every other teenager who sat in that chair. You believe that the adult world is colluded to cause you harm when nothing could be further from the truth. We wanna help you take your mind and shape it.

We wanna put our values and virtues in your bodies so that we, the teachers can live on in future generations. Are you willing to accept what we have to give you? 

Craig: She’s basically saying like, we indoctrinate you. Yeah. And then he’s like, she’s like, are you willing to take what we have to give and. I don’t know.

He tells her to off or something. I don’t remember. 

Todd: That’s so weird. Now we also have a quick cutaway to, I don’t know, this is like two or three days later now. Paula’s dad has this is still in the swamp and he has the strength to crawl out of the swamp, get up and walk away. And then it cuts away from that.

It’s like the movie feels the need to remind us that her dad is still alive and he is making his way outta the swamp over the next couple days 

Craig: at right at 10 to 15 minute intervals, they will just cut to a scene with him where he is just trudging through the swamp. 

Todd: Which it makes even less sense every single time we see it because it’s like so much time has passed.

Craig: Ugh. I liked this next scene where there was just a random scene where I can never think of their names. Dwight and Paula are just walking through the gym and are accosted by the creepy custodian. 

Todd: Super intense. It 

Craig: was. And it is something like, I’m the only teacher you’ll ever remember. I’m the custodian of your fucking destiny.

And they’re like, and they literally walk away and she’s like, what’s with him? And he’s like, I don’t know. And they just walk away. They 

Todd: just. Go. This scene is also to remind us the custodian is still there and he’s still a potential killer. You know, it’s, that’s all this is for, I’m still thinking where are the bodies like by this point?

And then this next scene is, is something I hadn’t ever seen before in a horror movie. So I guess that was good. Death by Xerox. It was a new one. That one teacher who chewed out Brian, miss. Mrs. Knock, wanders to that room where the Xerox machine is and somebody comes up from behind her and shoves her face down onto the glass, and I guess presses it with enough force that it kills her.

I don’t really know how that’s supposed to work. 

Craig: I think he was bashing her head. 

Todd: Really 

Craig: against it, I think. 

Todd: Okay. I guess, 

Craig: and I feel like I have seen this before and, and probably this came before and I saw it later. Like I, it feels like a very Chucky thing to do. I don’t know. 

Todd: Oh, right. Maybe, 

Craig: but, uh, 

Todd: it, it, Xerox is a bunch of bloody faces of her.

Craig: Yeah. I liked it. 

Todd: Yeah. It was cool. 

Craig: Yeah. And you would recognize this woman too. I looked up her name. I think it was Nancy something. She’s really familiar. 

Todd: Nancy Fish. 

Craig: She’s in tons and tons of stuff. Yep. And I, I always like her. But then I feel like the next scene, or one of the next scenes is a small group of angry parents all holding up those photocopies of her like dead bloody face.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And, uh, there’s. Gonna be a a mob, 

Todd: but how about that intense encounter that Brian has with Dwight in the sink, at the sink, in the bathroom? 

Craig: Oh, 

Todd: with those like electric guitar riffs and they’re splashing water on their faces. I swear. If there was ever homoerotic tension, it felt like this moment right here in this movie.

Craig: Well, Paula finds the body and screams 

Todd: finally, 

Craig: and Dwight, Dwight and Brian. Who I guess had been fighting in the bathroom. Is that what they were doing? 

Todd: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, they were, they had an intense moment. 

Craig: Dwight immediately points at Brian. It’s like it was him. It was him, and then there’s a big chase, and that’s when we see the principal in the Chiquita banana wig.

What was even what It’s just. I guess it’s just a gag and I should just get over it, but it just ca it comes out of nowhere and comes 

Todd: outta nowhere. It’s so silly. 

Craig: What are you doing 

Todd: in this intense, again, in the intense moment of the movie where we’re supposed to be, you know, it’s supposed to be a chase scene.

Well, it definitely broke the tension. So the principal’s in there playing dress up. Brian manages to sneak out, and now the cops are out with dogs. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Looking for Brian in the, in the woods. And the dad is stumbling outta the woods too. 

Craig: Right. And there’s a manhunt. And yet they still don’t manage to stumble upon.

Martin Moll. 

Todd: A fricking dog finds Martin Moll. The hound dog finds him. Now that’s supposed to be how it works. So what happened after that where he still isn’t found? I have no idea. The dog ran back to his guy and kept going. I don’t get it. 

Craig: I don’t know. But this is where things start to get really funny to me because first, now there’s the angry parent meeting, and so Brian is on the run.

Brian is at Paula’s house. Throughout this whole movie, Brian is riding a, a bicycle that is clearly a girl’s bicycle. 

Todd: Yes, with the tassels hanging on. 

Craig: It has tassels and a banana seat, and there is absolutely no explanation of why he rides a female child’s bicycle. Anyway, Paula finds a recording of her dad apparently rehearsing his final argument.

In Brian’s prosecution, and he calls him like a monster and a murderer, and you have to put him away forever. 

Todd: It’s so dumb. She’s up in there reaching up for some of these papers in the cabinet, and the tape recorder falls out 

Craig: and hits her on the head. Like it literally, like, I don’t know if it literally hits her on the head, but that’s basically how it happens.

Like, yeah, just this. Bong. This like exposition just knocks her on the head. 

Todd: That’s exactly, because then it turns on the tape recorder, which happens to have the tape in it, which happens to be queued up at the right 

Craig: moment. Right? Yeah. And meanwhile, back at school, Brad Pitt is walking around reading Shakespeare to be or not to be because, and somebody’s like.

What are you doing? Doing theater now? And he’s like, well, I’m not gonna get a basketball scholarship. I guess I better try to get good grades somewhere. Oh my. Like God. So now all of a sudden, he’s an actor. And so she runs into play practice with a script that she has apparently typed out that she has transcribed from this tape that she just found.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And she forces him to read this testimony. Where it comes out that he was the one who taught Brian how to cut the brakes on his dad’s car, which ultimately led to the dad’s death. And when Brian was asked to identify who had taught him how to cut the brakes, he said, friends, don’t betray friends. Or something along.

Todd: Yes. Then we cut to the girls’ locker room again, and this time 

Craig: boobs 

Todd: a pair of boobs right in front of us moving around and then. Moving out, uh, headless boobs go across the screen. So we got our nudity in, I guess that gave it an R rating or something. This was released direct to video, so it never made it to the theaters, believe it or not.

But it, it’s got what it needed. It’s got his blood. It’s got some F-bombs. It’s got some boobs. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: just two very quickly. So then there’s the gym teacher who’s also creepy and weird and aggressive, like the gym teachers in these movies really are and is like mad at them. For some reason Brian and Dwight, right?

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Or no? Dwight and Paula. I can’t remember. 

Craig: I don’t know. Who cares? 

Todd: Brian’s not there. He is on the run. 

Craig: Yeah, he Dwight’s gonna fail Jim for some, because he refuses to dress out. Like at this point they don’t even care about the writing. Like, 

Todd: yeah, 

Craig: they’ve gotta get Dwight back to the gym by himself later sometimes.

So they just. Stage this scene where he refuses to dress out for Jim. Yeah. So he has to come back the next day. It like, it’s so stupid. 

Todd: Well, it’s stupid because we’re going back into school antics again. People have been dying that a body’s been found. There’s kind of momentum on the plot and then, and she’s got this reveal for him and the script and all that, and then suddenly it’s.

The gym teacher in the gym, and like you said, it’s just they gotta get him there so they can do another kill. Dwight has a weird moment where the gym teacher is walking away and he notches a bow and arrow and aims it right at him. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Before Paula runs up and he interrupts him and he shoots it away from him.

What, so again, I think another thing to just try to throw more suspicion on Dwight. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: Meanwhile, Paula’s dad is still crawling around in the mud. 

Craig: Oh God. I know it’s a dad’s still crawling. Yeah, well, Dwight shows up at Paula’s house drunk and feeling sorry for himself and she, but she sends him away and then we see somebody sneaks into her room and it’s Brian, who not only sneaks into her bedroom, but while she is like bathing her, like she’s not in the tub, like she’s washing her hair like over the bathtub, she’s.

Nude except for her panties. And he comes in and he’s like, I’m not gonna hurt you. Well, you could have knocked on the door or waited until she was not naked. This is very awkward. And she’s like, you’re the killer. He is like, no, I’m not. I just need your help finding the killer. And she’s like, I don’t believe you.

And he’s. Picks up these pair of scissors and he is very menacing. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: I mean, she doesn’t even have use of her hands ’cause she’s covering her boobs. It’s very weird. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he, he picks up these scissors and she’s scared and he says, don’t be scared. And he gives her the scissors and says, if you really think I’m the killer, then just go ahead and kill me because if you think I’m the killer, then it’s me against the world.

It’s just me. So, but she doesn’t kill him, so apparently he just watches her sleep all night, taking a, taking a break. Only also to put on all of her dad’s clothes. 

Todd: Yes. What is, what was this all about? I dunno. Then we get the greatest kill scene in the movie. The movie is such a mess, but at least it’s got some fun kills and the coach is bouncing around on the trampoline.

Was this when he was supposed to meet up with Dwight? 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he does, he does meet up with Dwight. Dwight is still drunk in the morning. The only thing that we skipped that’s relevant is that Brian has a couple of those photocopies. Oh, yes. Of the teacher getting killed. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: And in one of them you can clearly see Dwight’s ring.

You know, like it’s been made very clear that this is his rink. Now, there were a couple of weird things about it. One. It didn’t look like the ring fit. It looked like the killer was wearing it on the middle digit of his finger. And the other thing that made me, again, I don’t know if this was intentional or not, if it was, it was smart.

So I think maybe it wasn’t. But when. The initial discussion about the ring when Paula wanted it, he was like, nobody’s ever getting my family ring. Mm. Like family ring. Like not his class ring, like his family ring. So I really thought when I saw this, I’m like, oh, it’s gonna be Dwight’s dad. Mm. I thought that that would’ve been a really good, 

Todd: oh, 

Craig: Mr.

X, because his dad is a big asshole and is super violent and 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: Anyway, it’s not. It’s 

Todd: not.

But there’s a great killer, POV here where we see an American flag. The killer is holding an American flag out in front of the camera, approaching the coach as he’s bouncing on round on a trampoline. And I was like, oh my gosh, are we really gonna do this? And we are. The flag goes under the trampoline. We get some great shots from underneath it, as the coach is bouncing down.

And sure enough, he bounces right onto the upright flag and gets stabbed in the body. I, I loved that. 

Craig: Right. And it would, it would make the most sense that Dwight was the killer at this point. Yeah. ’cause he had, he’s still, he’s still drunk. It’s morning, but he’s still drunk. And he had met the coach and they had exchanged, but Dwight had marched off to go get dressed out and he said he would come back.

Then the murder happens immediately after. Through that. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: So, I mean, I don’t, I, I’m still thinking the movie is trying to misdirect like, again, that seems too obvious, but at this point I’m like, well, now we’re getting down to it. Like, 

Todd: oh God. Then, then it just goes crazy. Paula is now in school and she finally runs into her friend’s bodies in one of the closets.

They’re like tied up. They fall, she runs around the school’s dark. There are not many people there. She runs into the math teacher who just comes around the corner and he goes, it’s a dangerous place for a pretty girl. Like you also creeping on her. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And she’s like, come follow me. There’s something.

And so he runs with her and they end up in a classroom and the doors are shut and they turn around and there is a puzzle on the board for them to solve. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: What is happening? When did this turn into saw? 

Clip: I know. 

Todd: The suddenly the door slam and each door, both of which by the way I’m pretty sure just lead out to the same hallway.

Craig: Yeah, I think so. 

Todd: But there’s a one painted on the one door and a two painted on the other door, and in between them is the wall with the blackboard on it. And there is a math puzzle for them to solve. And he, for a math teacher’s having a very hard time fretting over this puzzle and getting it right, the teacher gets it wrong.

Because of the time zone difference in the thing, and he goes to door one and Brian jumps out and says, wrong and axes him. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Now we know Brian is the killer, 

Craig: right? And he like, he menace Paul. And he is like, you always liked, what’s his name better than me? Will you go out with me now? And then he is like, he has some monologue about how when he heard himself called a murderer, like it really clicked for him.

Like, you know, some people are doctors and some people are lawyers and he’s a murderer. He says, so. So don’t, so don’t take it personally or I kill you. I’m just doing my job. 

Todd: Oh my gosh, he is so stupid. He says something like, I became a murderer. Something was bad, but the hours were good. What? It’s really dumb.

Uh, and he talks about killing people beyond the confinements of time and space and changing the course of history forever. 

Craig: I must have completely zoned out because I don’t even remember that. And it probably is because it doesn’t make any sense. Like what? 

Todd: It’s so dumb. Yeah. 

Craig: God. 

Todd: Then Brad Pitt rushes into savor.

Why? He didn’t just run in through the already open door. I’ll never know. But instead, he smashes his way in through the closed door. Ah, there’s some chase. He grabs her. I think they end up back in the science room. This whole chasing is so absurd. I, I don’t understand why they aren’t able to get away, just run out of the school.

And also, where is everybody else? I have no idea. 

Craig: It’s, oh, I do know where everybody else is. Everybody else is at Mrs. Veka or whatever. Her memorial. 

Todd: Oh, okay. 

Craig: Because remember Brad Pitt said, I can’t come tomorrow. ’cause that’s her memorial. Oh. 

Todd: And 

Craig: he’s like, well, you’re gonna come back anyway. Not that it matters, but that’s where they are.

Todd: Well, they end up in the shop again. Right. And there’s just this insane, the machine shop. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. And there’s this insane fight sequence. And I have to admit, I liked. The environment tools everywhere. They got a little bit of smokiness going on. They got things, kind of the camera’s moving, things are in the foreground, things are in the background.

It’s like it’s really close to being stylish, but something about the cinematography is just a little off and it doesn’t feel like it’s, it just doesn’t feel. Like it should, I don’t, I don’t know how to describe it. It just doesn’t, 

Craig: it doesn’t feel particularly well choreographed either. 

Todd: Yeah. Maybe that’s it.

Craig: But you’re right. It looks, the, the way you know it, the way that it’s shot, it looks like it should be exciting. It, it looks like this should be a fun set piece, but they just don’t really do a whole lot with it. 

Todd: No, and, and it’s got this same problem that a lot of these low budget movies have where they’re fighting and, and this girl is useless.

Stands there watching them as they fight, like pick something up and hit ’em over the head. You know, like 

Craig: they’re fighting with electrical tools and Brad Pitt at one point is like, unplug his drill or whatever. And so she like looks at every cord like 16 times, finally pulls one out and Brad Pitt’s thing goes off and they all look at each other like.

Who like, like it’s supposed to be a gag, but it just doesn’t play at all. It just 

Todd: doesn’t land for some reason. What, who said this line? I wrote it down last night. I had a strange tingle all over my body. Have you ever felt my tingle? 

Craig: That was pride. 

Todd: Oh my god. Oh my God. 

Craig: That was after, that was after he tried to get Dwight to kill her.

He’s like, Dwight, you’re just like me. You’re a killer. You kill her and you live and he’s got like. His head in like a fireplace tool. I don’t know. Weird. 

Todd: Oh, is it in a vice, right? 

Craig: Yeah. Well, and then he gets his head in a vice, and then that’s when he kisses Paul and says, have you ever felt my tingle? And that was, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a funnier line.

I laughed so hard. 

Todd: Oh my God. 

Craig: And I guess, I don’t know, she, he wants her to feel his tingle, I guess. Mm-hmm. And if she’ll feel it, then he’ll let Brad Pitt live. So she’s like, uh, okay. I’ll feel your tingle. And. He’s like, okay. And she’s like, just close your eyes. And he does for a second. And then he opens ’em and he is like, I couldn’t trust your dad.

Can I trust you? And she’s like, oh, I would never. And so he closes his eyes again and she, she grabs a hammer and takes the claw end of it and hits him in the head. Um, and then she says, no more around with my emotions. What whatcha talking about.

Todd: I laughed so hard at that I couldn’t understand 

Craig: this all and then, and then the creepy custodian comes in and says, what is this survival class? And then hits on her

Todd: and then says, well, I wouldn’t mind cleaning up after you at all, miss 

Craig: God. 

Todd: She walks away, oh my God. 

Craig: And then it’s like, there’s like cops and stuff and everything wraps up, and then Paula and Dwight are sitting alone in his convertible, and I think she says. I liked Brian. Like, what is that? What she said?

Something like that. I liked Brian, but now, now I like you or something. And then she’s like, I wanna go fast. So he throws his car into gear. We see Martin Mu stumbling around. The hills. And I thought for sure, I actually really, really hoped that they were gonna smash right into Martin Moul. 

Todd: I know. I was waiting for that.

I was really hoping for that too. He stumbles out, but it’s sort of like a, it’s sort bookended by, you know, the, the scene in the beginning with, he almost hit the kid where he skids out in front of Martin Mul just in time. 

Craig: Well, and his brakes were cut. His brakes were cut. Found 

Todd: out. Oh yeah. So there’s some tension.

Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. So we find out that Brian had in fact cut his brakes too. But he, you’re right, he. Action movie maneuvers around Martin Mull, 

Todd: who then just kind of walks over to the car. God, he’s been, he’s been out, stumbling around for days without food, without water, through the woods and mud and whatever to make his way back to the house.

And he just kind of casually walks over and like, what are you doing? And she’s got, she’s got Brian’s blood all over her shirt and she’s 

Craig: like, and he’s like. Yeah. And he’s like, I’m gonna kill that, Brian so and so. And she says, don’t worry, we already took care of it. He’s dead. 

Todd: And he is like, oh, okay. What?

Wait a minute. What are you doing out here? You’re not cutting class, I hope. 

Craig: And she looks at him like, ah, dad. And it freezes on her 

Todd: dude. The three of us erupted when that freeze frame came on with the music. We were dying ’cause we called it. 

Craig: I’m glad that you had the opportunity to watch it with friends.

I’m sure that was a much more enjoyable experience. So more, 

Todd: so much fun. 

Craig: I was sick, like physically sick. I had to force myself to get out of bed. You poor guy to watch this movie. I was tired. I was dazed and confused. And I went back to bed immediately. I, I, at one point I walked out and to get a drink of water or something, and I said to Alan, I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to make it all the way through this movie.

No, no. But I, but I did. And I think under different circumstances I would’ve had a better time with it. I think there are things to laugh about, but, but. As you said from the beginning, I think that tonally there, it’s imbalanced. I, I don’t think that they were all on the same page in what it was supposed to be.

The script seemed like it was meant to be one thing, and then the way that it was executed didn’t seem. Right. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So I don’t know. Yeah. But I mean, we’ve definitely a hundred bazillion times seen worse. 

Todd: Sure. 

Craig: Um, and I did, I, I actually really did enjoy seeing Brad Pitt in this early role. And is his acting amazing?

No. But you know, for a kid, yeah. A lot better than a lot of the acting we see in these low budget movies. 

Todd: It is, like I said, I mean, it’s silly enough that you kind of have some fun with it. But you’re still scratching your head, so I don’t know. Yeah, it, it’s, it’s an odd feeling watching this movie, but ultimately I had fun with it.

And like, like you said earlier, I think it’s much, much better to see with friends so that you can goof on it together and, and be in good spirits about it. I, I don’t know if we’ve reviewed one with such negative ratings on Rotten Tomatoes. I think it’s like a 14% and, 

Craig: oh, 

Todd: I don’t think it deserves that. No, but it, you know.

You, you got some good stars in here. You’ve got a goofiness about it. And I don’t know. I was entertained. Yeah, I was entertained. It’s not a good movie, but it was an entertaining movie to watch, I thought. Yeah, 

Craig: it’s light. Yeah, it’s fine. 

Todd: Yeah, I, I’d recommend it. 

Craig: I would too, 

Todd: if you’re into this sort of thing.

Yeah, for sure. Alright, well there we go. Thank you guys so much for joining us in this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can definitely find us online at our website, chainsaw horror.com, or just Google. Two guys in a Chainsaw podcast. You’ll find our Facebook page, our Instagram send us.

A message there. Let us know what you would like us to do. Also, head over to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast where you can get reviews that we do just written reviews, little life things that we talk about. Also, the complete unedited versions of our phone calls that lead to this podcast. All the stuff we cut out, all the personal stuff we talk about before and after.

We’ll be there and a book club. We’re reading books, uh, left and right and enjoying them. If, if you’re a reader and you like horror, go check us out over there. We have a nice little community going on with that and good friendship. We do zoom calls every now and then. It’s real fun. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Until next time, I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig 

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week we’re diving into the 2025 body-horror film Together, starring real-life couple Alison Brie and Dave Franco in Michael Shanks’ impressive writing/directing debut.

We talk about why the movie has been so well received, how the effects and cinematography elevate it, and how the central relationship feels unusually intimate and honest. From moving to a rural house and the couple’s growing tension to the disturbing cave, the mysterious “water,” and the escalating physical and psychic bonding, we walk through the major plot turns (including the neighbor’s role and the film’s ritual backstory).

Along the way, we unpack the movie’s big relationship metaphor—individuality vs. commitment, sacrifice and compromise—and debate whether the ending feels happy, horrifying, or both.

Episode 475, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig. 

Todd: This week we’re diving into something that, uh, just came out last year. This is the 2025 movie, Together, starring real-life couple, Dave Franco and Alice and Brie, the writing directing debut of Michael Shanks, and what an impressive one It is.

I had not seen this movie before, but I had heard a lot about it. I think it has made a bit of a splash out and about. It certainly has good ratings everywhere you go. It seems to have been almost universally well received. But yeah, this was my first time watching it. How about you, Craig? You’re the one who recommended this, so I see.

I assume you’d seen it before. 

Craig: Well, actually it was our good friend Heather, who recommended it to both of us. Anytime that she sees something she enjoys, she we’re in a group chat. She always texts us, not necessarily suggesting that we do the movie for the show, just because she knows that we like this stuff and she wants to share things with us.

I had heard of it because I am a fan. Both Alison Bree and Dave Franco. So I was aware that it was happening. I didn’t really know a whole lot about it, but I thought that it was cool that they were married. You know, I have mixed feelings about that sometimes, like, I’m like, oh, great, it’s like a vanity project, you know?

Like they’re working together. But 

Todd: right, 

Craig: in this movie, I felt like it really worked. I, and I’m sure that we’ll pro, I’ll probably talk about that at length, but my point is I was a fan of both of them already. I hadn’t realized that it had been released for streaming. I think that’s only been recently.

And Heather recommended it, and I watched it and I texted you and I was like, she was right. You know, I described this one as, I think good special effects, but also thoughtful, and that was the choice. That you made and I, it sounds based on first impression that you thought it was alright. 

Todd: Wow. What a cautious take on my opinion you have.

I liked it a lot. I really did. In fact, I was lucky enough to be able to watch it with a, some friends of mine are actually staying in my apartment in Beijing and I said, I’m watching a movie for the podcast. And they’re like, oh cool. What is it? And they said, I said it was together. And they said, oh yeah, we’ve seen that.

We really liked it. We’d love to watch it again with you. And this does seem to be like the kind of movie that could spur a lot of discussion, particularly amongst couples if you really wanted to dive into what it’s trying to do. So it’s really great fodder for chatting about, I think of the podcast and I could talk about Alison Bree all day long.

I’m madly in love with her. I used to watch Mad Men when it was out, and I thought she was a fantastic character in that show. And I was very disappointed to find out later. While I was watching Glow, which was another really great series that just got, 

Craig: it really was 

Todd: not picked up again, you know, to not able to continue on Netflix.

That that, I think Glow is when I pretty much decided I’m done with Netflix. Like I canceled my subscription when they didn’t continue that series ’cause it was so good. I wanted to see more of Alison Bree and I was so disappointed when I looked her up around that time and found out that she was married already.

Craig: Yeah. She and Dave Franco. The first time that I was exposed to him was either in the movie Neighbors, the Seth Brogan movie neighbors, or. A movie where he played another guy just like that. Like that’s kind of how he started out, like playing these jackass sidekick kind of roles. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: And I get that it’s a major stereotype, but like, I’m not really impressed by that.

But having kind of watched his career move forward, I actually think that he’s really talented. And the thing that I like about these two, and I’m a big fan of hers too, I loved Glow. It, it sucks not only that it wasn’t picked up, but that they had been assured that it would be so they didn’t tie up their storylines.

Todd: Yeah. They were done dirty on that. 

Craig: Everything was left open. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, and it really was a very good show, if you haven’t seen it. It was funny, but it was smart and ugh, it was really, really good. It was retro, uh, and and fun. Yeah. Retro and fun to, it was fun to watch. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, women’s professional wrestling with the big hair and the leotards.

What’s, what’s not fun about that? Exactly. And of course they’re, you know, they were all playing parts and they were big over the top parts for tv. It was great. I loved it. I, I didn’t watch. The real glow. When I was a kid, I watched some wwf. Yeah. Like Hulk Hogan. 

Todd: I can imagine you were a little more, a little more drawn to that.

Craig: Well, I didn’t even know that I was really aware of, of glow. 

Todd: Yeah. It was small. I mean it, it tried to make a big splash for a little bit, but I mean, especially us kids. When I was that age when I was really into professional wrestling and I was as was probably most kids around that era of the eighties, it was huge, right?

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Yeah. I think we were just all like, yeah, wrestling’s for guys. That’s it. 

Craig: Well, and it’s violence and I don’t know, but the, those ladies made it theatrical and fun. It was fun to watch. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Not that the guys didn’t too, I mean, they were acting too. But anyway, the whole point is I like both of them and they both seem like really cool down to earth people.

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen them in interviews or I, I don’t know where else you would see them, where they’re not acting, where they’re just being themselves. They seem fun. They seem like they have a really good time together. They seem very much in love. They’re very supportive of one another and of one another’s careers.

And I think that that comes through in this movie, not. Necessarily in their performance because they’re portraying a very real couple, which is what one of the things that I love about this movie. I mean, I feel like we’re gonna deep dive into how this movie is really, it’s a body horror, but it’s really just a big metaphor for relationships.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Specifically marriage. But they, they’re a real couple. They love each other, but they’re not perfect and things aren’t perfect. And I think that real couples know how to play that because they’ve lived it. I mean, yeah. I mean, that’s my lived experience. I don’t know about everybody. I, I am in a very happy, very long-term relationship that I hope to be in for the rest of my life, but it’s not all peaches and cream all the time and.

There have been periods of time where we’ve struggled. These two characters are at a crossroads where they’re grownups now, and, uh, she has a real job. He’s kind of clinging to his glory days as a musician, but he’s not really working. I mean, he’s writing, but he’s not recording or performing, and she’s ready to move on and be a grownup and get married and I don’t know, they don’t really talk about starting a family, but she’s got a, a good job and a, a beautiful rural area and he talks sometimes about feeling trapped.

And she talks sometimes like he’s a big man child, that she kind of feels that she has to take care of, that he’s helpless without her. And you feel that way sometimes, you know, like it’s not, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: You know, there are tides in relationships and, and I think that two people who have been married for as long as they have, they were married in 2017.

I don’t know how long they were together before that. I’m sure that in some way, I mean there relationship is still relatively young, but they’ve been together long enough that I’m sure there’s been ebb and flow in their relationships and that just came across. I felt the intimacy between them so strongly and I was really impressed by that.

Todd: Yeah, I’m really impressed with movies that jump in and are actually going to be honest about adult relationships and not real cinematic necessarily. I, I think this is one of those movies that really is honest about what it takes to be a couple and the struggles that you go through and what happens when life happens to you.

I’m not gonna get too personal, but you know, I was married for 17 years and, you know, we, we certainly could relate. I think if I had watched this with big, I think we could have related to a lot of what this couple was feeling and going through. You know, there’s also this idea that you can never fully know what your partner.

Is going through and feeling and thinking, you know, no matter how long you’re together, no matter how much you think you know each other, there’s always a question is what’s on their mind. You know, what, how did they interpret this event? Are they feeling the same way I am? And the longer your relationship goes, the more you just more or less, I think assume, you know, you, you see patterns and you just kind of get into a state where if you’re open enough with each other that you’re comfortable with each other and you, there’s this al there’s this unspoken or you know, spoken rule that if things change, if our feelings change, then we’re gonna open up about that.

You know, we’re gonna talk about it and we’re gonna share that. And never take that for granted. And I think what you’re seeing in this movie is a state where there is a couple at one of those crossroads where, you know, they seem to have been comfortable for a while and together, but relationships just, they really do require constant vigilance, you know?

Yeah. And there’s this idea, I think, kind of the overall metaphor of the movie is, wouldn’t it be easier. If we could just get under the other person’s skin, you know, if we could just inhabit them. If you could have, I’ve always thought of it myself, not as being inside them, but just being like, like having like a, a cable directly connected from their brain to mine so I could just look into it and wouldn’t things be so much easier.

We could solve all of our problems and we could become one, which is really what we’re looking for. It’s our goal, but it’s never truly achievable. And there is a sense of, um, fantasy about this movie that even though this idea that you could, and I mean I’m spoiling a little bit of it, but even though this idea that you could meld together into one person, that would kind of be the perfect relationship, wouldn’t it?

Relationship, wouldn’t we all kind of want that in a way? 

Craig: No. See, and I think that that’s. The question that the movie begs you look at the, the cover art or the poster art and, and you see what the movie’s about. So the cold open is these, a search party looking for a couple that’s gone missing and these two dogs that are part of the search party find this cave and they drink water out of this cave and then their owner locks ’em up in the cage and they’re acting weird and they’re staring at each other.

And then he hears a commotion When he comes out, they’re like, we only get a flash mix. They don’t wanna give away too much, but they’re like a monstrous, the thing kind of thing. Like they’re kind of fused together so the movie doesn’t hide what’s going to happen. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But I think that the question that begs is, would that be ideal?

And I’ve been thinking about it ’cause I’ve watched it twice now, and I really do think watching it a second time made a big difference for me. I picked up on things that I hadn’t picked up on before. 

Todd: Oh, I could see that. Yeah. 

Craig: Even reading the trivia, there were things that I hadn’t picked up on and I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense to me.

But I’ve been thinking about it now. Ultimately, gosh, I don’t know how much we wanna spoil. There’s a faction, I’ll just say that, of people who think that this type of melding together is an enlightened and enhanced form of existence. I don’t think so. I don’t, I would not want that kind of direct connection.

I don’t want Alan to know every thought that crosses my mind, and, and I don’t wanna know every thought that crosses his mind. 

Todd: Yeah. But, but then now, now by the way, I feel the same way you do. I’m very individual. I like my space, I like my privacy. And even with my partner and I’m, and I’m very open with my partners and I share everything with them.

I feel like I’m an open book. Yet still, of course, I don’t share everything, right? We do have a filter, right? We do know what, but that’s because we’re afraid. There are things that we’re afraid that if we were to share it. And rightly so in in many cases. I mean, the better you know your partner, the more you understand this, that that will change things that they will misinterpret that or that they will take, you know, for example, very, very surface idea.

I see some girl walking by and say, oh, she’s cute. I wouldn’t say that on my first date with someone, but I would’ve said that to Bick knowing that she knows I’m not lusting after that girl who just walked by. Sure. I’m just making a comment. You know? But another person would get offended by that. Like, why are you, why are you even pointing out that that woman’s cute?

Like, what’s going through your mind? Is that how you go through your day? Just walking around thinking about how good women look? You know, what does that say about me and how do you feel about me? And then they go down these spirals. Right? Right. You know, I mean, if you could have somebody just know the intent behind everything you did, if you in in essence, really shared one mind in that way, you wouldn’t ever have those barriers.

And think about how much easier you could go through your life and your relationship, not having to filter things and not having to repair when things slipped through that filter. You know what I mean? Yeah. Accidentally or whatever. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. And I think, you know, it depends on how deep you wanna take the metaphor, but I guess what I’m understanding that you’re suggesting is that if you had that fuller understanding, then there would be less.

Likelihood of there being conflict because you would understand where the other person was coming from and they would understand where you were coming from. And if you really loved one another, you could understand that and maybe live in some kind of harmony. That’s fine. I can accept that premise, but I think really mean things about Alan.

Sometimes when I’m mad and I don’t say them out loud because one, they’re really mean and I don’t wanna hurt his feelings. And two, I know I’m only feeling that way because I am angry. And in that moment I think that I’m right. But who knows if 20 minutes from now, an hour from now tomorrow, I’ll even feel the same way.

And I wouldn’t want him to be privy to that. I do get it, but I also feel like to me, it is representative of the way that marriage is presented to people. Especially in a religious context, a ceremonial context. Ah, the two become one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Like you are entering into, if you’re religious, a sacred bond, even legally, you know, you are becoming legally a couple and you’re legally bound to one another.

It sounds great. It sounds really romantic and sweet and lovely, but 

Todd: it’s tough. 

Craig: What does that really mean and how does it really work out? 

Todd: You’re right, and I think that’s, that’s the ultimate. Tension really be between being a couple, you know, how do you maintain your individuality while still being devoted and being this quote unquote one person?

The advantages of pairing up and of going through life together are numerous, but to some people. The idea that I am beholden to another person in certain degrees or certain ways, they feel that they lose their individuality. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: You have to be able to hold two truths together. Right? I can be interdependent, codependent on another person while also maintaining our own individualities.

Craig: Right? 

Todd: For some people that, it’s hard for them to imagine that, and for others it, it comes very naturally. But for most of us, because we’re all different, it’s something that we have to navigate and work out very, very carefully if we’re going to be in a long-term commitment with, with, with another person.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And that changes too, because we change over time. We’ll talk about the movie, but this all relates, you know, I’m certified or whatever, you know, to do marriage. I’m, I’m a minister of the United Universal Church or whatever like that. I paid my 20 bucks online and I got my card. And so I can do marriages basically.

And I’ve done a few weddings and the first wedding I did was really on the heels of a really difficult time in my wife and my life. That was just really on the edge of, of, of our eventual separation. And what was really going through my mind at that time is that in the beginning, you know, when you’re together, it’s very new and it’s very exciting things then kind of develop in a routine, but you meet each other at a certain place.

Mm-hmm. You meet each other at a certain place in time and in your own experiences and you’re coming together and you make it work life. Throws life at you. And different people take life in different ways. So when you’re bound to another person, you’re eventually going to move in different directions.

I’m gonna be interested in this thing. She’s gonna be interested in that thing. And the challenge of staying together through the years is how do you move together through that? Mm-hmm. She, how do you stay on the same paths when that path is winding? It’s very, very tempting to just, uh, see a fork in the road and just take your different directions.

Mm-hmm. You know, but that pulls you apart. How do you navigate a life where two people can be individual and autonomous and feel happy and make their own decisions? And the, the answer to that is. Ultimately sacrifice. 

Craig: Yes. And compromise. 

Todd: Right. And compromise. Yep. You adult relationships are nothing but a series of trade-offs.

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: And you have to make peace with that, and you have to be willing to do that. And that means you have to be willing to give a little bit of yourself up from time to time. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Knowing that you’re not losing yourself and trusting in your partner that you’re not gonna lose yourself. So, 

Craig: yeah. And it’s just not for everybody.

You know, again, romantic relationships between two individuals. That’s what was modeled for us in our personal lives and in, in media and, and for a very long time that meant one man and one woman, and, and if they were really in love, they got married. Of course, we know in real life that 50% or more of marriages end in divorce.

I don’t think that it’s realistic for some people. I don’t think that it’s, I just don’t think that it’s right for some people. I think that it’s right for me, but I think that people also can live very full enriching lives. Either without romance at all or with many loves throughout their life. And the first time I watched it, I didn’t even really think about it so much.

Like I was impressed with them working as a couple and going through their things, but watching it a second time, I think I just put it kind of in a broader context and, and thought outside of their literal story of what’s happening to them. What is this movie trying to say? 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: It’s not in any way preachy.

I don’t think that it’s trying to endorse any one particular way of life or, or anything like that. 

Todd: I agree with you. 

Craig: That’s why I described it as thoughtful, because it, it, it just made me think, and I’ve been thinking about it for several days now. 

Todd: Well, I think it just presents a reality and I mean, maybe I, I would like to talk about this movie in the sense of, let’s talk first about their relationship at the beginning and what the problem is.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Like you said, she sees them as kind of this, I, I think, you know, he, he, he comes across as a big manchild to her. Yeah. She’s got this, uh, these goals and these, these things, and so they’re at an impasse even though they clearly love each other and they’re trying to make it work. I don’t think it, it even comes across as some dire thing that’s going to tear them apart necessarily.

You know, they’re not at that point when we meet them and they’re doing the thing that we often do, and the thing that often helps with this kind of thing is there. Branching onto an, into an entirely new experience for both of them. They’re moving, they move into a, a brand new house, and that is very typical for relationships, way to, uh, reset things a little bit.

When you are going through these kind of tr it gives you kind of a common problem to navigate. You’re in a, a new neutral environment where neither of you are familiar with things and neither of you have your, necessarily your friends nearby or your family nearby to run and, and go to, to confide in when things are wrong.

You know, you’re, you’re just trying to kind of navigate a new place together. And I’m, I’m very familiar with this. You know, they move into the new house and there’s, there’s some excitement about it, about exploring the new house. He notices something really strange. At one point, he’s notices a smell and it seems like she doesn’t, which I thought was interesting.

And he looks up at the light and he goes upstairs and he does this thing That really confused me because I just found this very improbable that this guy would smell something and go upstairs and the guest, the smells getting stronger and he looks up at the, the light above him, and then he unhooks the light from the ceiling, at least the cover, you know, around the top of it.

And he pulls down the source of the smell, which is this mass of rats, where their tails are just completely intertwined together and, and one would think that it, they’re dead, but actually one of them kind of wakes up as he drops it to the floor so it’s even alive. So that’s clearly the source of the smell.

And it seems like they’re connecting that to something that happened when he was a kid. Am I right about that? 

Craig: Yeah. He tells a story later. I wanna come back to what you’re talking about. In a second. But yeah, he tells a story later about how when he was a little kid, his dad complained about a smell and his, Tim, their, their names are Tim and Millie complained about a smell in Tim’s room and Tim didn’t smell anything, but the dad said, clean your room.

And so he did. He cleaned his room, but the smell was still there. He said, you know, clean it better. And he did. And the smell was still there, but he didn’t smell it. And then eventually his dad was very self satisfied when he found a nest of rats like that in the lamp. Tim says something like, they nested up there ’cause it was warm, but every time I turned the light on I was cooking them.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: it was a traumatic thing for him. And I, I’m sure that there’s more context for this because there’s a lot of context of, you know, their togetherness or being a part, whatever. But he kind of compares this to, I believe that he found his parents in a state that his father had died and had been dead.

For so long that he was largely decomposed in the bed, but the mother couldn’t bear the thought of not being with him. And so she had lost her mind and had just continued to sleep in the bed with him. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he found that, and, and he talked about, he connected it to the smell. He said it was the most horrible smell.

And again, it goes along with that theme of, you know, the good stuff about connection and the bad stuff about connection. If you really are that connected that you cannot even carry on. Without the other one. How great is that? I, I do wanna go back to what you said though, because you were saying sometimes this is what people need.

And I agree with that. I think a change of scenery, I think a new start is really great for some people. I think that the problem here is that he doesn’t have anything. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: You know, they, they buy this beautiful home. I, I don’t know how they afford this gorgeous home in the country. 

Todd: That’s always a movie magic.

Right. 

Craig: He doesn’t, he doesn’t even have a job and she’s a school teacher. Right. Come on. Uh, 

Todd: there must have some inheritance somewhere. 

Craig: It’s a beautiful, I mean, it’s just a, it’s idyllic. You know? I wanna move into that house in the country and teach in a little rural school. I mean, it’s, it’s lovely. And so she has all of that and she’s, you know, kind of excited about making the home, but he has nothing there.

He doesn’t have a job there. He doesn’t have friends there. So he doesn’t even really have much opportunity for making friends. He doesn’t have any purpose and. He’s virtually helpless. The movie beats you over the head with the fact that he’s virtually helpless. Yeah. Like he can’t even drive. And I understand, you know, you grow up in New York City, a lot of people don’t drive.

A lot of people don’t have cars. I get it. But come on. If you don’t live in New York City anymore, go take your driver’s test like every other 16-year-old and get a driver’s license, like Right. And he just seems very reliant on her. But I, I feel for him too, because we talked about how relationships require compromise and sacrifice, but he’s the one sacrificing, I don’t see what she is sacrificing.

It seems that they are following her plan. They’re following her dream and, and the best he can do is kind of try to play in a band with her brother and maybe go back and forth between there and the city. But that’s, you know, a cause attention in their relationship because she can’t drive him. ’cause she has to work and she has to drop him off at the train station and.

This is all established over like the first half hour of, of the movie. We also see that they’re in a, a dry spell in terms of intimacy, like they haven’t been physically intimate with each other in a while, and that’s weighing on her. They even talk about, should we split up now there’s a big going away party for them or something, and she proposes to him in front of everybody, which I hate when people do that, so, oh, 

Todd: stupid.

Yeah. 

Craig: Stupid and awkward. She’s embarrassed. They’re both embarrassed because he is so shocked that he doesn’t know how to respond immediately. And then that’s awkward. And of course everybody’s staring at them and of then he is like, oh, of course. Yes, yes. But it’s still very awkward. And then we see them in bed together and he’s very self-deprecating about how stupid he is.

And he always screws everything up, which I hate to hear that too. But they talk about whether or not they should split. And he says, well, it’s a little late now, don’t you think? And she says, yeah, I do think it’s a little late now. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And that I was like, oh boy, you are not married yet. If it is, if you are both willing to say, it’s a little late now, isn’t it?

You might not be in this for the right reasons. 

Todd: Exactly. Yeah. God, there is so much to talk about here too. I think that something that my friend Matt kind of mentioned to me that struck him about the movie was this sort of traditional role reversal that he found interesting about it in that, in the movies, usually it’s the woman who sort of portrayed as the, the Amos or Helpless one or the Housewife or something like that.

And in this case it it’s, it’s flipped. And the guy is, and even at times, you know, she feel, it seems like she’s gaslighting him a little bit. There’s a line note, she says something along the lines of, you gave me so much blue balls that it’s your fault that we had sex. Am my, oh, they have sex in her, in her school.

That’s a moment we’ll talk about later. So let’s get back to that later. Yeah. But I wanna say that I think that this movie. Certainly pulls from some more modern conversations that are taking place that I don’t know you’re aware of or not. Craig, I wasn’t aware of this at all, but a number of my female friends who are younger, like in their twenties and thirties that I’ve been chatting with, have this similar complaint about men that they feel that men these days that they’re dating are emotionally immature and they’re very needy and that we, you know, the first time they meet them, they just trauma dump on them and that they’re, they feel like they’re, they can’t take care of themselves, but they want this intimacy and they want to project, you know, that they’re, they’re all together but they’re really falling apart inside and they just kind of leave all this onto the women that they date.

And the women are just like exhausted and frustrated and, and feel like they’re carrying the emotional weight. In these relationships. Have you heard of this? This is apparently really big now, big conversation that’s happening. 

Craig: Yeah. And I, I’ve also heard recently that, I don’t wanna say power dynamics, that’s not exactly true, but a larger percentage of married women are the primary breadwinners in their relationships.

Heterosexual, married women. And again, I can’t cite a source. So it’s something that I heard, and it’s not a huge split. I think it’s still 50 something, 40 something, but. More women are the primary breadwinners in their families. And you know, I’m, I’m glad, I’m glad to see it moving away from what we always see.

But to be really honest with you, this doesn’t, this doesn’t seem foreign to me at all. Like, 

Todd: oh yeah, 

Craig: I think women are smarter than men. 

Todd: Oh yeah, me too. A hundred percent. And women have. 

Craig: And, and more responsible and nurturing and women get shit done. Amazing. 

Todd: I mean, as a gen, as an overall group, you know, we’re gonna be generalizing a lot here.

You know, obviously I’ve known individual women who are completely helpless and don’t know how to manage their emotions. 

Craig: Of course. 

Todd: And the same thing with men. I’ve known men who are very strong, but, but you know, I think the general. That’s happening right now. And the thing that people are courts sort of saying is that, you know, for years men have been this, you know, stoic and have not shared their feelings.

And then, and women find that frustrating because they feel like they’re not opening up and they can’t talk to them because women, again, generally speaking and traditionally are better at managing feelings and emotions. And, you know, sometimes to my own frustration, you know, that Sure, yeah. The, the extreme end of that is, you know, gossipy and emotional all the time and you know, all this stuff.

But like, 

Craig: sure, 

Todd: but then now men have been told, no, you need to open up, you need to share more, you need to be more vulnerable. And so men are responding to that, but they’re kind of the, again, pendulum swinging in the opposite direction. They’re doing this, but they don’t really have the, they haven’t really been taught how to regulate themselves.

And so they’re kind of dumping that on their partner. It just becomes a. A, a case of, well, this is how I am and this is who I, how I feel, but none of the, this is what I’m doing about it and this is how I’m working on myself. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: I don’t know how to do that, and I just sort of expect you to, to hold that burden for me, and that women find that a burden and frustrating.

Craig: Well, and I think that that’s regardless of gender, 

Todd: a hundred percent, 

Craig: there are dynamics in relationships and, and again, that’s another part of finding balance. You know, you wanna find, you hope to find a partner that will balance you. But I, I, I feel like really Tim is the one with the biggest character arc here, because though he does, I think, resent the feeling of being trapped, I don’t think that he so much resents her.

I think that he has a, a, a terrible sense of inferiority and yeah, a, a lack of confidence and, and pride that is. His issue, you know that that’s, that’s not her. She’s trying hope. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: she’s really trying. And that’s not to say that he’s not, but I, I think that his inferiority and, and his reluctance to commit, she’s prepared to commit.

She’s ready to take that next step. He’s reluctant, which is fine and I understand that. And I think it’s a decision that you should consider very carefully, but initially they really don’t seem to be in the same place. And the fact that they’re questioning whether or not they should even be together initially made me question the strength of their relationship.

But again, I’ll go back to what I said before, relationships ebb and flow. And ultimately, I guess that’s why they say through good times and bad in, in marriage vows. I guess that’s why you take a, a vow because you’re acknowledging that there are going to be bad times. Are you willing to work through that?

Do you promise You will. And again, the institution of marriage. Whatever. Alan and I aren’t married. We won’t get married. I don’t know if I, I tell my friends this all the time. I don’t know if I’ve ever said it publicly on the show. The big reason that we’re not married is because when we were young and wanted to get married, we were told that we couldn’t, that that was not for us.

Todd: Right. Right. 

Craig: And we heard that for so long. We were like, fuck you, then we don’t want it, and we don’t need it. You know, we’ve got our thing and we’ll just do our thing. And so then even when it became available to us, we just have a bad taste in her mouth about it. I’m, I’m so happy for my queer friends who have been able to celebrate their love in the way that they want to and make that kind of commitment.

Alan and I have our own understanding. We don’t need. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So, you know, and I’m also not suggesting that people who get married who make that vow should keep it. Yeah. I, you know, there are. I think oftentimes when people feel, it’s not that people just, there are of course some couples that just are like, ah, whatever, and that’s fine too.

Who am I to judge? But often, and I think it’s often the case that people do try, it’s not like they don’t try just, sometimes things don’t work out. And like you said before, people change. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And, and sometimes I think separating is better. It’s healthier for everybody involved. So I’m not advocating for one particular lifestyle choice, but I liked watching their journey and I liked seeing them come together through a very trying and confusing and scary experience.

Because I think that those kinds of things are where your relationship is tested and where it will either succeed. Fail. 

Todd: Yeah, I mean, uh, you’re right. And I think the point you’re kind of trying to make here is this really isn’t about marriage, this is about relationships. This is about right, whether you’re married or not.

Everything still kind of applies the same whether you’re in a long, if you just want to be in a long-term relationship with somebody, marriage is like a, I don’t know, it’s like an outward expression sort of thing. It’s a vow. I think for some people it’s an additional pressure that helps to hold them together because it forces them to come to the table without an easy out.

I just came off of a relationship where, you know, where I feel like there was a lot of potential to just come to the table and, you know, sort of our first big test of what do we do when things get uncomfortable, what do we do when things get difficult? And whereas I am very well practiced, I think at.

Coming together and sorting out problems before, you know, making a judgment on them. I think my partner, her first instinct was just to run, you know, there’s an issue, let me get me out of this. And sometimes that’s the right move. Mm-hmm. You know, sometimes, uh, you can just recognize something early and, and you need to realize this isn’t for me.

And I, you know, my case, I kind of think it could have been handled better, but, uh, in any case, sometimes it’s just. What we do. It’s a challenge. It is, uh, the moment where we come together and we say, why are we together? Are, do we still want to be together? What is this doing for both of us and this situation that we’re dealing with now, how do we navigate it so that we stay together?

Because ultimately we want to stay together and adult relationships. This, this is just a, I wish I could say that it, you know, it, it didn’t have it, it doesn’t always happen often for a lot of people. You know, sometimes people are just really in sync or they just, they’re just very good. I think about not encountering these things too often.

And I think the reason for that is, is not that their lives are particularly easy or that things are just not thrown at them at the same way they’re thrown at other couples. I just think they’re really good, even unconsciously. At handling these things before they get to that point. Extreme communication when you’re going through life changes, early recognition of, I’m feeling something that’s a little off, or I’m feeling whatever.

And having the courage to come out with it and having the trust in your partner that they’re going, not going to accept that as a threat, but they’re gonna accept that as a, as something to talk through and work through. 

Craig: Yeah. For me, and again, Alan and I have been together for almost 30 years. We have been together for longer in our lives than we haven’t, and we got together when we were very, very young, which I would not recommend.

Yeah, you should. I think that you should explore. It just so happened to work out for us, and it hasn’t been easy, but when you’ve been with somebody that long and, and you know somebody that, well, he and I, you know, it’s, it’s like trial by fire. You know, we, we have been through major life events together.

He’s lost both of his parents. We’ve lost. Pets together, which is a, a huge deal for us. We’ve literally seen each other in sickness and health. We’ve seen each other at our worst. We’ve, I said, we’ve seen each other in sickness and in health. Like we’ve cleaned each other’s bodily fluids up when we’ve been sick.

You know, like, yeah, right. The most, the most intimate things that you can imagine. And there have been hard times, but I think the time that really sealed it for me was COVID when we were stuck together in the same house for two years and really weren’t around other people at all. And both of us, you know, we talked pretty openly about the, our thoughts and feelings and fears and those types of things.

We were concerned because we both enjoy our alone time, and we both enjoy our separate things, but the longer it went on. The easier it was, we would constantly say to each other, I couldn’t have done this with anybody but you. I love my parents. I love my sister. I love you. I, I, I love my friends, but I couldn’t have been in that close proximity with anybody else but him.

And that really kind of cemented something for me. I feel like we’re like doing a different talk show. 

Todd: Yeah. We’re, we’re really, this is not, this is not the horror movie review that ev God, if, if this is our first episode that you’re tuning into. 

Craig: It’s not always like this. Yeah. But that’s what I, I actually like this because I feel like that’s what I liked about the movie.

I think that it can provoke these kinds of conversations. Maybe with your partner or with your friends, or even just in your own mind. It really has made me take a lot of things into consideration. But the honest thing is we could go through scene by scene what happens, what people say. We’ve already talked about the tensions in their relationship, but they’re also very comfortable with one another.

They have, you know, little. Jokes with one another. There’s humor. What ultimately happens is, I guess I should say, she meets a friend at work, a guy that I initially thought was putting the moves on her. 

Todd: Yeah, I thought so too. 

Craig: Even though she made it very clear that she was in a relationship. But even that she refers, she says boyfriend sounds juvenile partner.

I don’t know, Mike. My partner, Tim, my boy, partner Tim, like kind of minimizing, not my man friend or my man partner, my boy, partner Tim. And you get the feeling that that’s kind of how she thinks about it. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: she says that outright. But this neighbor who will come back and be significant later, he’s like, oh, I just lived down the street from you.

The neighborhood’s really quiet. Basically I am the neighborhood. He says, and the hiking trails are fantastic. So they go on a hike. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And they get caught in the rain and they get lost and they fall in that same hole that we saw earlier. Now we don’t, you can’t tell what it is, but it doesn’t look entirely natural.

There’s something, I don’t wanna say supernatural, but unnatural about it. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Like there are seemingly manmade things in there. Like there’s wood and there’s bells. These ornate bells that kind of mark this off the path path. That’s how they get to it. And, and they fall in there and it’s kind of a pit and the weather is terrible and they’re lost.

And so they just decide because it’s dry in there to spend the night. But when I say there are unnatural elements to it, there is this strange. Hole. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That, I don’t really know how to describe it. It almost giant bottle looks like it’s kind of 

Todd: a little bit, sorry to say 

Craig: a really giant one, and it’s like, it’s like black.

It’s gaping red. They only have a partial bottle of water and he’s like, do you think this is safe? And he drinks it, but she’s like, I’m not drinking that. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Which again, I didn’t really pick up on the first time around. He drinks it and she doesn’t. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: They spend the night, he wakes up to some sort of weird, I don’t know, hallucination where it seems like the cave or, or whatever it is that they’re in it’s self is alive as though they’re inside a living being, and it is like respirating and aspirating.

Todd: Yeah. That was cool. 

Craig: It was cool. There are a lot, this is a body horror movie too, and there are some really good effects. There’s some really good practical effects, and then later there are perfectly good digital effects. Later on, we’re talking all, you know, all about this relationship stuff because I think that really, that is what is central to what’s most important about the movie, but it is a body horror movie and this is a movie for horror fans.

And if you are a horror fan, I think you will like it, especially if you like thoughtful, smart movies. 

Todd: Yeah, I, I think the movie does a good job too of, of really keeping us on our toes. It is a little bit of a fake out. Is it Supernatural? Yeah, I guess so. Because it is supernatural this idea that what’s going to happen happens.

But also there’s that moment where you had talked about earlier that we learned that he had this traumatic experience of seeing his crazy mother and his dead father earlier. And there’s this moment also where he has a, a kind of hallucination too. Where he sees his mother coming up from underneath the covers at him, this creepy looking face kind of almost possessed looking.

And there was a point at which I wondered if this was a bit of a ghost story or a haunted house story because of the rats in the ceiling and this, this creepy face or whatever. And as it gets unpacked, we realized mostly we’re in their minds, you know? Yeah. This stuff that’s happening is really hallucinations and thoughts and that are going through their heads as they’re going through these changes and they’re going through this experience.

So on the one hand, I thought I did a really good job early on of. Of having these jump scares and things, but they really made a lot of sense because it was so psychological what we were seeing. Ultimately, it beco, you know, I, I’m, I’m thinking throughout this whole movie how much of this is psychological and how much of this is supernatural.

But it was only later that I realized that their neighbor, Jamie, had a sinister motive in all this. He, I guess, kind of led them, he didn’t lead them down that path, but he’s the one who suggested they go hiking in the woods, and Yes. And he keeps continually checking in on them. And he has this little relationship to this woman.

And, and again, he doesn’t really push himself, but he’s presented himself in such a way as such a confidante to her that she naturally goes to him. Again, I’m, as I’m watching this movie, I’m thinking, oh, this is trouble. You know, this is that third party that, that she, that she’s, that’s, that’s kind of trying to edge his way in on their relationship, but then when she goes over to his house to express her concern about what’s happening, you know, she really doesn’t have anyone else to turn to.

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And again, does this happen in a. In relationships where we, we feel like we need to get a third opinion, a second opinion. It does happen. And so she goes to that neighbor. And it’s really interesting because during that period of time at his house, I realized, okay, he’s actually not trying to put the moves on her.

Craig: No, he’s gay. 

Todd: Yeah, he’s gay. Exactly. He’s got a partner. And so Oh, okay. But the partner’s not there. And I wasn’t really sure. He’s a little vague about talking about it. Right. 

Craig: He says that when they came there, they, he, he says, we were probably much like you were young and with the same kind of problems you had.

And there actually was a point where he left, but then he came back and we’re, we’re together now. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: This is foreshadowing. That was subtle enough that I really didn’t catch on and I didn’t either. 

Todd: I didn’t either. 

Craig: And, and I had to, I had to read some things before, you know, the, before, the second time I watched it, I read the trivia and so I read some of the spoilers, but there are little suggestions.

We don’t see the other partner. We see a picture of the two of them together, but neither of the two men in that picture look exceptionally like the man that we’re talking to. And he’s wearing two wedding rings, not on both hands, but it, it’s like he has a double band on his wedding band finger, which I never would’ve get, uh, noticed.

And even if I had, I don’t know that I would’ve thought anything of it. Yeah, just a 

Todd: style. 

Craig: Yeah. Right. Also, he offers her water, which I never would’ve questioned. That’s what you do. You, you know, somebody comes to your house, particularly if they’re in duress. You offer them something. 

Todd: Oh, I didn’t catch this.

He offered her the special water. 

Craig: He offers her water and she drinks it. Because up until then, the effects of the water had only been happening to Jamie. Now we kind of skipped over that. When they wake up in the cave, they’re fine, but their legs are stuck together and like painfully so, and they have to rip them apart to the point that they both have abrasions on their licks, but they pass it off as nothing.

But then she tries to go to work and as she’s driving, he has a weird experience in the shower where like every time she turns a corner, he gets thrust in that direction, like into the wall of the shower. 

Todd: That was wonderful. 

Craig: It looks fantastic there. And it, it seems that there is some sort of psychic connection.

He goes to a, a doctor 

Todd: who gives him 

Craig: diazepam, but then he is supposed to go off and do a gig. She drops him off at the train station and immediately when she leaves, I think the closest thing that I would describe it to is somebody in like severe drug withdrawal. That’s what he, his appearance looks like.

And he’s drawn to her so much that he walks away from the train station, leaving behind all of his equipment and luggage and all of that stuff, walks to her school. And he said, I just, she’s like, what are you doing? You’re not supposed to be here. You’re supposed to be on the train. He said, I couldn’t be without you.

I have to be with you. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And they bang in the bathroom stall, which they shouldn’t do, but I get it. She hasn’t gotten any in a long time. 

Todd: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Craig: The, the, uh, the interesting part about this scene is they both seem very relieved. Like there is a emotional release with the physical one, and, and they, you know, feel good, they feel comfortable together.

Until they realize that there’s a kid on the outside of the stall and they start to freak out and she’s like, you have to get out of here. And he can’t get out of her. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it’s painful. And they show it. And I was surprised that they showed it. 

Todd: I was too. My goodness. 

Craig: And it looked real. I read that, I think the director’s partner worked for a sex toy company or something like that.

And so he was able to get a very realistic looking sex toy. And they, uh, for free, yeah. Jazz. They jazzed it up with some pubic hair. The kid runs and gets the teacher friend, and the teacher friend comes in, is like, is everything okay? So she’s embarrassed. She’s afraid she’s gonna get fired. That’s when she goes to his house, he gives her the water, then they have a fight.

He says, there’s something going on. You know, I’m drawn to you. It’s dangerous. And she’s angry at him. She could have got, he could have gotten her fired and she ultimately says to him, my parents are coming tomorrow. Or the next day or so, I don’t know, whatever, and I don’t think you should be here. And he’s like, what does that mean?

She says, it means I don’t want you. Like she’s decided that she doesn’t wanna be with him anymore. She says, I think you should sleep in the guest room. And he says, I think you’re absolutely right. We should stay as far away from each other as possible. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: In the night, their bodies are magnetically drawn to one another.

While they are unconscious and he wakes to find himself being moved, you know, it’s not like there’s some sort of being like pulling him or something, but he’s like, it, it’s as though he’s being magnetically drawn to her across the floor, and then her door opens and she’s being drawn to him and her body is contorting to try to get to him quickly.

And when they ultimately do get together, they grab hands and their hands go into one another’s flesh. And it’s good. It’s good. It’s really good. It’s, uh, and they’re both terrified, of course. And they’re pulling and trying to get away from each other. And he says, my, my pills, the muscle relaxants, if, if we take those, maybe we can pull apart.

And so they take them and they crush them and, and snort them. You know, they’re on the floor, they’re, they’re struggling against one another, but they get these down and ultimately they pass out. When he wakes up, she has them taped to a chair. They’re still connected, but she. Tell them the drugs are gonna wear off, it’s gonna keep happening.

I have to hack saw us apart. 

Todd: Yes. That was funny actually. I, 

Craig: and I, I thought it was funny. I thought it was funny because it’s still their dynamic. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: She’s the one that has to be decisive Yeah. And make a choice. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And, and she does. And he’s initially against it, but she rationalizes with him and he says, you’re right.

Do it. They do. My favorite shot of the whole movie is Cheese Hack sawing them. They’re screaming, blood is flying everywhere. It does an immediate quick cut to a long shot of them both sitting apart. He’s on the right side of the screen sitting against the. Cabinets, cheese on the left side of the screen sitting against the sink or something, and they’re both just sitting there like eating something like sheep.

Todd: Right. This is interesting. I think this kind of metaphor too, you know, of this point in the relationship, like, oh shit. Like we need to make a choice. You know, if we take this into the real world, you have a traumatic thing. You’re going through difficult times. Suddenly you’re faced with this idea, should we be together or not?

Right? And there’s this tension there where you’re going back and forth and you’re like, well, this is, this is why we would, this is why we wouldn’t, this is like a physical manifestation of that. They’re drawn together, but they’re scared by it. So then they kind of hack each other up and they go, go separately, and then they almost go on their own little, separate journeys to explore.

Right. 

Craig: Well they, they, she wants them to go to the hospital to get more drugs because they only have a couple pills left. And he’s like, doctors aren’t gonna be able to help us. 

Todd: Exactly. Yeah. 

Craig: He wants to go to the cave. She insists they go to the hospital, but they can’t because she left her keys at Jamie’s house.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Okay. 

Todd: All right. 

Craig: So she goes to get the keys and she says, don’t do anything stupid. He immediately runs to the cave. So yeah, they’re on their little journeys and they both basically figure out the same thing. Just in different horrible ways. 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. Tim Cece’s faces in the rocks and inside the cave.

It’s like, again, like the rocks themselves are all these fused bodies and people and things. It’s very interesting. Yeah. Millie somehow sees a vision of this ritual, doesn’t she? 

Craig: Jamie, the friend, had said to her before she abruptly left his house before, I’ve got this wedding video that I want you to watch when she comes over.

It’s his wedding video, but it’s this odd ceremony. Apparently this cave is a collapsed church that collapsed into the ground, and I don’t know if this is like sacred ground, but. They can do these ceremonies. We see his wedding was him and his fiance, his husband or whatever. They cut their arms and they fused them together, and they fused together into one person, and he is now the two of them fused into one.

He gives her a whole big exposition about how there are legends, about how initially human beings had like four 

Todd: arms and four 

Craig: legs, four arms and four legs and two faces. But Zeus felt that their bonds were too powerful, so he split them up and that’s why we spend our whole lives looking for our soulmates.

And he’s like, it’s the most beautiful thing. He’s like, yeah, this part sucks, but it’s gonna be so great. 

Todd: Wouldn’t like the alternative. He said, 

Craig: you wouldn’t like the alternative and, and Tim sees the alternative. I said very, I just breezed over it in the very beginning that there was another missing couple that had disappeared from that same area right before they got there.

And in the cave, Tim sees them and they’re horribly fused together. It’s monstrous. It’s like the fly. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And I don’t understand why. I don’t understand if it was because they were resistant to it, because they didn’t accept it, but apparently they’re just a caved, dwelling freak now. So he escapes the cave.

He also sees. He also sees the imagery of, of the ceremony in the cave as well. 

Todd: Yeah. Real quick, is that a metaphor for people who kind of stay together in an unhappy union anyway? 

Craig: I don’t know. 

Todd: I sort of feel like that is, like this couple, they’re staying together anyway, but they’re not happy or they’re not, they can’t become one.

They’re not Maybe the the soulmates, right. That, that he said earlier. 

Craig: Yeah. Maybe they’re not compatible. I, uh, I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s a thought. Anyway. 

Craig: I don’t know. They, they meet up in their driveway and initially they say we have to stay far away from each other, but then that magnetism causes them to get drawn together.

There’s more of her body contortions, which I don’t know how, I didn’t read anything about how that was done. I don’t know if she did her stunts or. If, if they brought in a contortionist or if it’s dummies. I have no idea, but it looks pretty cool. But ultimately they’re, they’re drawn together and he says something like, there’s only one way to end this.

And then all of a sudden they’re really not drawn together. This, 

Todd: huh? 

Craig: Like, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: They’re about, I don’t know, five or six feet away and, and they’ve been having to hold onto things to keep from coming together, but they can just stop like five or six feet away from each other and stand there and have a conversation.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And he does this whole monologue. He gets down on his knees, just a knee, just as she had at the party and opens a fake ring box just as she had at the party. She’s like, is this what you really want? He’s like, yes. It’s, you know, this is I think, the culmination of his journey. He says, yes, this is what I want.

I was just scared before I was holding on to some juvenile stupid dream. And I love you so much, and I just wanna be with you. But then he tells her to turn around and he’s holding a knife behind his back. I, the implication is clear that he’s going to kill himself to prevent this from happening. But she does a turnaround and he looks down to see that there’s a trail of blood coming towards him.

And he sees that she, did she cut herself? 

Todd: I’m not sure. I’m really not sure. I think she cut She, 

Craig: I think she cut herself because I think that the implication is that she made the sacrifice before he could, before he could even do the whole proposal thing. And before they kind of had this moment of, we do love each other.

She had already made the sacrifice ah, for him. Then she falls to the ground, he screams, it cuts to black, it opens on him carrying her into the house, and she’s regaining consciousness. And she says, what happened? And he says, it was the only way that I could stop the bleeding. And it shows that his hand is fused.

To her arm and she says, I was trying to set you free. And he says, do you want us to be free or do you want me to go free or something? And she shakes her head no. And there’s some very brief conversation about are we really gonna do this? They do, he puts on her favorite album, which, you know, he made a romantic gesture when they first met.

That’s why she fell in love with them. She likes The Spice Girls. He’s a big music snob, but he got her the Spice Girls album on vinyl, and that’s what kind of made her fall in love with him. And, uh, he pulls it out and puts it on 

Todd: and it’s, it’s on the nose. 

Craig: It’s the Spice Girls Song two Become One, which is not, it’s like one of their only ballads.

And 

Todd: it’s funny, 

Craig: uh, I was a big fan of the Spice Girls in the nineties, but, uh, it, it wasn’t necessarily one of their best and it’s cheesy, and I didn’t care. Yeah. I thought that it was charming and fitting and sweet and they laugh about it. And that’s the best, that’s the best thing in my opinion about relationships, is having somebody to laugh with.

Having someone to share those moments of silliness with. They dance and they take their clothes off. She, her boobs are out, which I’m sure you were thrilled about. 

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: She’s got really nice, she’s got really nice 

Todd: boobs. She does, she does really nice. But that must be why she exposes them in almost everything she’s in, I, 

Craig: she looks great.

I think that they’re both very attractive people and they meld in a disgusting way and it doesn’t look entirely without discomfort or pain, but it also is very intimate. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: You know, their, their hands are all over and inside one another, and ultimately their faces come so close together that their eyeballs touch and begin to meld and then it cuts away and the next thing you see is a car pulling up and you’re reminded that her parents were coming and her mother notices blood on the ground, but just.

Pauses for a moment, then continues to the front door and they ring the doorbell and the person that opens it is an amalgamation of the two of them. So they have bonded and they achieved that through practical effects and some digital work too. They gave her his eyebrows, but her eye color and some of his bone structure, and it’s a little freakish to be honest with you, but it is.

Yeah, you, you, you get the point. And though they were. Forced into this. Really? I was left feeling that though. I didn’t really know how to feel about it, that ultimately they were at peace with it. 

Todd: It seemed Well, I mean, there was a point of choosing, right. So, I mean, I guess that that’s what they were. He could’ve 

Craig: let her die.

Todd: Yeah. So I mean, I’m also not sure how I feel about, is it a happy ending? Is it not? You know, this is something I guess people could talk about and consider. I think it’s pretty open-ended, you know, whether this is a good thing or not. I mean, it’s a horror movie. I, it is kind of ultimately, like you said, maybe not what we would all prefer.

We wanna maintain some degree of individuality and not literally be one person. But I can see what it is. It’s about giving yourself to the relationship. You know, both people do that and then that’s the result is there is not one person. But one relationship. And so that’s, 

Craig: and in a relationship, in my experience though, you do maintain your individuality.

You do very much become a unit too. 

Todd: Yes, 

Craig: in, in lots of good ways. You can rely on one another and people begin to view you as a unit, which is sometimes frustrating, but ultimately, in my experience, it’s been very rewarding. I do like to meld bodies with Alan occasionally, but not that way. 

Todd: Right. I, I think I’m wired to want the relationship.

I’m fine both ways. Honestly. I could be single the rest of my life and be completely happy with it. I’ve experienced both. It’s not a threatening thing for me. You know, earlier I think you had said that, you know, it’s just not for some people, and I think that’s true. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: I think that you have to have a lot of self-confidence.

I think you have to feel good about yourself first. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd: In order to give yourself to somebody else, if you can’t comfortable in your own skin, you becomes very threatening and I think you could, you can lose yourself or feel like you’re losing yourself when you are asked to give up. To another person.

And so, you know, it, it’s really, there’s a lot. This is why there are counselors who just specialize in this stuff. Right, right. You know, and help people through it. So, but, but ultimately, I, I feel like the movie is positing that these two people made a choice that they are better together than a part. And so this whole supernatural thing just forced the issue of making that decision and making that commitment.

Right. And they did that. And so I see it as a happy ending for them in a way. 

Craig: Yeah, I do too. A, a again, you know, this was a very different kind of episode, listeners, so I, I, I don’t know. I hope you enjoyed it. It was, I I had a lot of fun talking about it. 

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: But I, I do wanna reiterate that. I just think it’s, it’s a, a very, it’s a quality film.

It’s well made, nice to look at, 

Todd: oh man. Some of the shots, the cinematography in here, the lighting is just gorgeous. 

Craig: Yeah. The story is engaging, the acting is really good. It’s a very limited cast and they all do a very good job. And it’s an engaging and intriguing story. I was never bored. It, it actually moved, I thought it moved very quickly.

It’s about an hour and 45 minutes long, but it, it moved quickly and it was fun to watch that. Couple who have a real life intimate relationship be able to portray an intimate, intimate relationship on screen. And I thought that they both did an excellent job. 

Todd: They really did. Some actors can pull off, you know, a really convincing relationship on screen without ever actually being married, of 

Craig: course.

Todd: But, you know, it obviously it, it’s easier or it, you know, it kind of lends a different dynamic when the couple is married. You can almost always tell, you know, there’s always something a little special about those movies where the, the couple’s married in real life and you could just see just a little additional spark that isn’t always there.

Well, guys, this was like Craig said, a very different kind of episode, uh, for us, but, uh, not unusual for us to chatter a little bit about our personal lives and about feelings and thoughts that are tangentially related to the movie or not at all. Right? If you enjoyed this episode and you just enjoyed, uh, hearing us talk, you might want to consider going to our Patreon where you can be exposed to the entire phone call that we do.

One of the benefits for our patrons is that you get the before and after chatter and all the little things that we cut out in the middle for just five bucks a month, you can get all of that every single week as well as the advanced copy. Of the podcast ’cause we put that out before I finish editing the episode every single week.

You can also get involved in our book club that’s there. It’s really a lot of fun. We have a Zoom call every couple weeks where we discuss a new horror book that we’re reading and that’s turned out to be a nice little community. There’s a lot of chatter that goes on behind the scenes. That’s a mini sos.

Lots of other benefits You can get patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Please consider that. Also, if you enjoyed what we were talking about, uh, share this with a friend who you think might be interested. That’s one of the best ways that we get around is word of mouth. And also leave us a review on your favorite podcast site, like Apple Podcasts.

As long as it’s positive, we love to hear all those reviews. You can reach out to us also by clicking on our website, talk to us, and if you send us a little video, me a little voice message. There is just, uh, up to 90 seconds long. Go straight to us. You don’t need any special software. You have to register, sign up for anything to that.

And when we receive that message, we’d love to hear that feedback from you and we will play it on the air and address it. Until next time, I am Todd. 

Craig: And I’m Craig 

Todd: with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We finally check off a long-time video store curiosity with 1989’s The Dead Pit, a gimmick-sleeve zombie movie set in a stereotypical mental institution.

We talk about how derivative it feels of films like Bad Dreams, Halloween-style stalking, and other late-’80s horror beats, while still appreciating the moody lighting, strong visuals, and some fun practical effects.

We break down the confusing motives of the “bad doctor,” the drawn-out runtime, Jane Doe’s amnesia/psychic connection to the hospital, and the movie’s abrupt shift into full zombie chaos. Highlights include cackling undead, brain-eating gore, a strange magic ring, and a finale involving holy water and a blessed water tower. Check it out!

Episode 474, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig; And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, this week I chose the movie and I have this. List of movies that I’ve just always wanted to see. Things that I used to see on the shelves at the video store were more, nothing more than the cover really piqued my interest, and I just thought I’d try to plow us through some of those this year because they’re just nagging at the back of my head.

And this one has been nagging at the back of my head because the video sleeve was so unique. On the shelf. It was like a zombie kind of coming outta the grave. It said the dead pit and the zombie’s eyes were two little green LED lights that if you pressed like just if you pressed on a certain spot on the cover, they would light up and flash.

Do you remember this at all? 

Craig: No, but oh, the things we were impressed with in those times. I 

Todd: know well. Back in those days, LED lights weren’t so ubiquitous either. I mean, like they had like red ones and they had green ones and I think that was it. And now LED lights are used for everything. But back then they just had a very limited function.

They were just those tiny little things I guess, you know, some little watch battery in there would keep that going for a while. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: But, uh, pretty gimmicky way to have your. Your sleeves stand out on the shelf. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: because obviously this was made for the video market, you know, from the very beginning.

So it’s got like two posters. It’s got this one poster that’s got like this, the, that’s the one you see on IMDB, which is a, a woman who looks like she’s hanging like in torture position with a halter top and a some white underwear on over, like a pit of zombies who were coming outta the grave. I never saw that one.

I just saw the one with a zombie with the light up eyes, and that was enough for me. I apparently wasn’t enough for me to pick it up when I was a kid. Unfortunately, this is the first time I’ve ever seen it. I assume the first time you’ve ever seen this also, huh? 

Craig: Yeah. I don’t have any memory of this. I, I don’t remember that.

LightUp case. I, I don’t recall having ever heard of this movie, but it’s, I don’t know. I mean, I just looked, I just finished watching it and I was just looking at the uh, IMDB tab on my computer, and it’s from 1989 and the last movie that we did, the Snake Hand Movie Curse two was also from 1989. And they have a lot of things in common, but ultimately I liked that one a lot better.

So I’m interested to see what you thought of this one. 

Todd: Yeah. This one, you know, had a lot in common with some other movies we’ve seen too. I don’t know why. I just kept getting flashes of bad dreams, which we did fairly recently. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: You remember that one? 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Again, takes place in a mental institution.

You girl kind of seeing visions and she’s got this like history that she’s gotta unpack. 

Craig: Yes. It was very much like that. 

Todd: Yeah. And so like, I meant to go back and look. Maybe I should right now. When was Bad Dreams released? 

Craig: I don’t remember. But yeah, 

Todd: they couldn’t have been too far off from this, 

Craig: but, but that movie was derivative of 

Todd: Nightmare.

Elm Street. 

Craig: Nightmare Elm, yeah. Uh, dream Warriors 

Todd: 1980. The year before this, 

Craig: there are just so many movies like this set in mental institutions, and of course it’s the movie Stereotypical Mental Institution with, 

Todd: oh God, 

Craig: people, people bumbling around acting like acting crazy, like, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: I think that most people that struggle with their mental health don’t.

Act like that. 

Todd: I mean, and could you imagine an institution where like, it would be chaos if you just have like a big open room and everybody in there is just one step away from like killing somebody really is what, 

Craig: but it’s typical. It’s so typical and, and the plot is typical. Like you said, you know, a, a pretty girl with a past and you know, a mysterious past and.

Zombies I like.

Todd: I wasn’t expecting the zombies. Well, I mean, I kind of was expecting the zombies ’cause I had seen the cover. But as it was going on, I thought, well, when the zombies gonna come into play, I guess that pit of dead is gonna, it’s gonna come to life and it didn’t disappoint. 

Craig: The zombie part of it is a lot like gies.

We did Gies, right? Did we do gies? Yep. 

Todd: Yeah, we did. 

Craig: In this case, it’s a doctor, but like he’s like a crazy doctor and he’s bringing people, he’s turning people into zombies for reasons that are completely unexplained, at least as far as I’m concerned. Like it’s just that he’s crazy. I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah.

Craig: That’s one of the things that frustrated me about this movie is. Who is this guy? Why is he doing this? What is his end goal? What is the nature of these things like, because he was just doing like experiments on them or something, and then all of a sudden there’s zombies everywhere and. Ugh. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, it’s very nebulous, you know?

It’s, it’s what? It’s kind of weird because the way it starts out, and, and I, by the way, one thing I did like about this movie, I thought it was shot really well. 

Clip: Mm. 

Todd: I thought like it had mood, like, I mean, well, if you’re going for a particular look, which is that eighties dreamlike quality where everything is kind of extreme, right?

Clip: Yeah. 

Todd: The angles were pretty extreme. The lighting was that very extreme lighting and which is good because it kept the hospital interesting. You know, there’s lots of blues and reds coming in through windows with the shades drawn or the blinds, you know, casting patterns over things. And the mood lighting was just great.

And then, you know, the camera was doing some interesting things like can levered angles and really interesting angles. At times I thought that, you know, it, it, it didn’t feel like. A lot of the low budget movies that we see, 

Craig: I guess, I don’t know. 

Todd: It had higher production value. 

Craig: Uh, I don’t know if I’d go that far.

I mean there was some really this guy, this is this guy’s first movie. I didn’t even write down his name. What is his name? The director 

Todd: Brett Leonard. 

Craig: Brett Leonard. This was his first movie and then he went on to do a couple of movies that I had seen. Virtuosity. 

Todd: The Lawnmower Man, you remember that weird movie?

Craig: The Lawnmower Man? Yeah. And the Lawnmower Man was good and ultimately isn’t a very good movie, but it was really innovative. Like it was making use of computer animation stuff that was. Brand new. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And at the time it seemed really, really cool. So it’s not that I don’t think that this guy has some skill as a director.

I do. I I really liked all the outdoor stuff. 

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: It was filmed, I don’t know, in California somewhere on this, I’m just gonna say campus, it’s not a school campus, but like a campus was, you know, multiple buildings and like a, a huge water tower and stuff and 

Todd: mm-hmm. 

Craig: There are a lot of long shots. Outdoors and at night and I thought for night shooting it was good.

And I get like, there are parts you mentioned that, you know, they do some interesting things with lighting. There’s, there’s a scene at the end, near the end that looks like they ripped it kind of right out of either thriller or that a night of 

Todd: return to the living dead like part two. 

Craig: Yeah, like night of the Living Dead.

But also what’s the one where there’s like, I don’t think there’s zombies or demons in that movie theater. 

Todd: Oh, demons. 

Craig: Demons, but you, it’s the classic thing where like, you know, you’ve got these zombies or demons or whatever that are lit entirely with a very bright light from the back. So, right. You know, it’s just these beams of light and them in silhouette, you know, moving slowly and strangely.

It’s just, it nothing about it felt. And we really should, you know, get more into the plot. But nothing about it felt fresh to me. No. Everything felt like a rehash of something else. 

Todd: Well, that’s true. I mean, but a lot of these movies do feel that way ’cause they’re all pretty derivative of each other. 

Craig: Not good ones though.

Todd: But you’re right, they’re these very specific things, I think is what you’re talking about. I mean, even the tail, even though the last bit with the water tower and the zombies kind of in that, in that space, was also bringing me back to a return of the living dead too. Which also came out the year before this.

You remember there was a kind of a climactic scene went down very similarly. I think it was a water tower, I think it was a sign. And some similar type area where they were trying to set a trap for the zombies. In that case, it was electricity. I just kept getting all these flashes to other movies while we were watching this and, uh, 

Craig: and, and some of it is so blatant that it just has to be intentional.

Like there is major Michael Meyer stuff going on, like the. Maine villain is Michael Michael Myers. In this girl, the whole movie, she looks out a window and he is just standing there staring at her menacingly, and then she looks away and she looks back and he is gone. That’s true. She, she’s constantly seeing him out windows just standing there staring at her like he’s just Michael Myers creeping on her for three quarters of the movie.

My other major complaint about this movie is that it is far too long. Yeah, far too long. I swear to God. I was, I, I started watching it last night and I was like, oh my God, is it still going? Uh, and then it finally got to the scene. I’m like, oh, finally, here’s the big, you know, the, the chase at the end.

Thank God we’re finally there. And I paused it and there was still 40 minutes left. It’s like, what? 

Todd: Yeah. Well, and that is partly because I think the scenes themselves go on very long. The whole credit sequence is they’re chewing the scenery through the whole thing. You got this extreme mood lighting.

They’re in this mental hospital. This guy walks in on a dude who’s in solitary confinement and pulls a big pick out and I guess kind of lobotomize, 

Craig: right? 

Todd: Lobotomize him right through the eye. Yes. Drags him away over his shoulder. Goes into some secret passageway in a closet somewhere. And then the dude, there was some other doctor who he had been briefly talking to who said 

Craig: something like, I called them good doctor and bad doctor, even though neither one of them is really good.

But 

Todd: yeah, 

Craig: that was the only way that there’s good doctor and bad doctor and the only, they’re the only two doctors in the movie. 

Todd: I never figured out who bad doctor’s name was, but 

Craig: Colin, something 

Todd: good, doctor is Dr. Swan, 

Clip: I can’t cover up for you any longer, Colin. Whatever you’re doing to them has to stop.

Are you going to stop me, Joe? I don’t know you anymore. You never did, 

Todd: but he didn’t even know exactly how far he was going. Apparently he was never that curious before he just heard wind of it or something. Because at this point he decides to follow this guy because he sees like a blood trail or something on the floor.

Yeah. And that leads him to the secret door, which leads him to this insane spiral staircase that looks like he goes a hundred feet underground. 

Craig: Uhhuh. Uh 

Todd: uh uh, I kept thinking, where do you think they shot this? Was this in like. A grain silo or something like where 

Clip: would they find, 

Todd: I 

Clip: know it’s really tall, spiral stick.

Craig: It was probably one story worth of stairway that they just shot over and over again, making it look like it was super long. I don’t know. Who knows? 

Todd: It could be, but what was super long was the time. I mean, oh my God. Then he goes down the staircase and he is looking around and then he goes into this. It looks like a dungeon from an old Vincent Price movie.

Yeah, 

Craig: yeah. And there’s like Skull. Yeah, there’s like skulls on the floor. And that patient that the guy. Lobotomized or whatever is on a table and he’s got symbols carved into his torso. I don’t have any idea what that’s about at all. That didn’t pay off, 

Todd: did it? 

Craig: What the hell? No. And then his, his head is open, like his skull has been surgically cut into and spread apart, and his brain is exposed and there’s a ton of bodies and good doctors like my.

God, man, you’re a doctor. You’re supposed to be saving lives and bad. Doctor says, I’ve done life, now I’m doing death. 

Todd: I loved this exchange. Oh man. 

Craig: Oh boy. 

Todd: But I was into it at that point. I’m like, all right, we got heavy, cheesy drama. You know, this is gonna be a little campy. You know? It’s pretty campy, the doctors, but, and so then like he approaches him and then for some reason.

Good doctor has a gun. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: What does he just pack a gun with him all the time in this hospital, 

Craig: I guess. 

Todd: But he whips his gun out and the guy says, you can’t kill me. And he shoots him in the middle of the head, right in the forehead and apparently does kill him, and then runs upstairs, nails everything up, plasterers over the doorway.

And then we get this like ridiculously drawn title with cackling over it. The dead pit. 

Craig: I know, that was so weird. 

Todd: I wondered if that was just like a later edition or something. 

Craig: Well, that weird. I mean, the, the laughter comes in later, like the zombies or whatever they are. I don’t know what they are. He.

Kills people and they come back kind of as laughing zombies. 

Todd: Oh, they’re always cackling. 

Craig: There’s also, eventually, God, I know I’m jumping all over the place, but eventually there’s like hundreds of them. Where did they all come from? 

Todd: I know they all came from the dead pit, Craig. Oh, 

Craig: the dead pit. Yeah, the dead pit At, at the bottom of the spiral stairway.

Todd: You just imagine how, how long this guy, this young doctor must have worked at this hospital to disappear hundreds of people without. Raising any alarm, 

Craig: whatever, 

Todd: bearing him in this pit. The pit’s full of bodies. 

Craig: Yeah, it’s full of bodies. And now it’s 20 years later and good doctor still works there. We don’t find that out for a second, but he does.

And I also feel like. He says something later in the movie when he at the like super, super, super late in the movie, he dumps some exposition that doesn’t really tell us anything that we didn’t already know. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And really doesn’t explain anything. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: He starts it by saying something like, man, I haven’t thought about that for 20 years.

I’m like, bro, it just happened 20 years ago. You shot a guy in the head. He was like conducting evil experiments in the basement and you just haven’t thought about it in 20 years. He 

Todd: put 

Craig: it 

Todd: out of his mind immediately afterwards. This guy is great at compartmentalization. This guy is an avoidant to a T.

Craig: He just, he just put it, he put it behind him and was done with it. 

Todd: Life goes on. 

Craig: Okay. So anyway, so new women. At first I thought this was just a women’s hospital, but it’s not. It’s, there’s just men and women in the same ward, all of them. Insane. Apparently this young, gorgeous soap opera looking woman gets admitted, but she has amnesia.

So her name is Jane Doe. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: she says, I don’t remember. She says it 150 times in the movie, but she tells us that she didn’t lose her memory. It was taken from her. Somebody took it? 

Todd: Yeah. Somebody took it from her, which it, then she gets explicit later about how she was on an operating table and they did something to pull her memories out.

Craig: I, I swear to God, she says it 20 times. Oh. And she’ll, she’ll say things like, remember how I told you that I believe that I don’t have amnesia, but that somebody took my memories? Remember that how I told you that five or six times before? 

Todd: Just to be sure. This is Cheryl Lawson and, uh, this was her first big role.

She did a few things after this. She was in virtuosity. I don’t think she was a big character in virtuosity. She’s in a couple other movies after this, but didn’t really do much. But as a stunt woman, she did quite a bit during the nineties and early two thousands. 

Craig: She’s very pretty. She’s not a very good actress.

Todd: No, she’s probably better as a stunt woman. 

Craig: Yeah. The, I mean, the, the writing isn’t great and her character is kind of, I don’t know, whatever. I mean, I guess she’s the heroine or whatever, but she’s not particularly likable. Like, I’m not really rooting for anybody in this. I don’t really care. 

Todd: Wow. 

Craig: But, uh, she’s basically just kind of hysterical throughout most of the movie.

And it gets old like, Ugh, God, calm down. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, she cries a lot. She’ll burst into tears and get a little hysterical on a whim. 

Craig: And then is there a, a supernatural earthquake? Does Jane have something to do with the earthquake? Like 

Todd: I 

Craig: think 

Todd: she 

Craig: does her breakthrough, like cause an earthquake or something?

Todd: I think what we’re led to believe is that this woman coincidentally got assigned to this hospital. Where she has this past connection to, and she also has some kind of psychic ability that’s latent and that awakens it when she comes in and she triggers the earthquake. Now, that is really just my supposition.

There’s nothing that ever explains that, 

Craig: right? 

Todd: They discuss the earthquake, but. The doctor Swan kind of dismisses the idea of what caused it, because he’s like, well, the earthquake’s not important ’cause that’s physical and we’re talking about supernatural occurrences. But it broke the seal on something, some seal somewhere, it broke.

And that’s the issue. 

Craig: Yeah. And the board, the boarded up door opens and glows green. It, it, it co It’s always, the dead pit is always glowing green from 

Todd: this. Yeah. And I like that. It’s very thriller. 

Craig: I think during the earthquake or immediately after, like she’s on the ward floor, like in the common area and she’s freaking out and she’s like, they need help.

The people in the cellar need help. Let them out. 

Todd: And I expected, she says this to Dr. Swan and I expected Dr. Swan to like have a vis visceral reaction to this, but he doesn’t at all. 

Craig: I mean, he hasn’t thought about it in 20 years. 

Todd: Yeah, I guess so. It’s gonna take a lot for, to think about this. Put these connections back together.

Yeah. Oh, I know. But then it becomes, like I said, it, I just feel like this is so reminiscent of bad dreams. She’s walking around, he takes her in, he starts therapy or whatever with her in his office to try to help with her memory. She tells him this, he, he suggests hypnotherapy could draw out some memories that she’s suppressed.

Asked her to start walking around and as she walks around the grounds in the foreground, we see this demonic looking hand. 

Craig: Yes, it’s like got sharp fingernails, but we’ve, we’ve already seen evil Dead bad doctor is like Michael Myers in around like. She sees, yeah. From 

Todd: here on out. Yeah. She sees him everywhere.

Yeah. 

Craig: But yes, he does. He has, I don’t know, demon hands, I guess. Sharp fingernails. 

Todd: Who knows why. 

Craig: Yeah. I don’t know why, and I don’t remember when it happens, but at some point, evil, dead, bad doctor. Like wants his lobotomy tool. And so he goes in and he gets it, and then I feel like he puts on scrubs and stuff.

So he looks like a doctor, but then he puts latex gloves on his hands and the claws do not poke through. The latex? 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: You just see them up there and then he puts a ring on over the latex glove, and I did not know what was happening, but it was hilarious. 

Todd: Why did he do all that? I thought the ring would be significant.

Craig: It comes back at the end, but I don’t think we ever know anything about it. 

Todd: Oh. 

Craig: Like, spoiler alert, she wins. She, you know, the guy dies or whatever, and, and then she takes the ring and puts it on herself. 

Todd: Oh, right. 

Craig: We have no idea. I, I have no idea what this, I, 

Todd: I 

Craig: guess we’re never told. It’s a magic ring. What this ring is, I guess.

Oh God. I don’t know. That 

Todd: must be the thing that keeps him alive. He can’t die. 

Craig: God, who knows. 

Todd: Well, we can just go with it 

Craig: from this point on. I don’t know, like it’s just a bunch of business that drags on for too long. Yeah, we meet a couple of other characters. There’s Chris, who’s this hot, normal guy that doesn’t really belong in the mental institution, but he likes to blow things up.

I guess the last time he blew something up, something bad happened and his lawyer told him to like plead insanity to get a lesser, like, he’s like, so I just have six months in here and then I get out. Yeah, and like he’s just supposed to be a normal. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So weird. 

Todd: Yeah. He’s the normal guy in there. Then there’s this nurse Kiker, who’s a total bitch.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: She’s the head nurse. She’s the nurse ratchet of the whole thing. 

Craig: There’s mean nurse and there’s nice nurse. 

Todd: Yeah. And nice nurse, which is distractingly gorgeous. 

Craig: She’s very 

Todd: pretty. Nurse Robbins. Yeah. She looked like she could have been Denise Richard’s sister. 

Craig: She’s really pretty. The, the main girl, I don’t know if I said this before, but she’s not a great actress, but she is really pretty.

It’s, it’s also funny that, you know, she’s. Checked in here, but for a good 30 minutes or so, she’s running around in high cut, eighties panties and a crop top that is so bulky that if you were only four foot tall and you looked up, you would be looking directly at her breast. Yeah. ’cause she has huge boobs and this big, bulky thing and.

It looks like she’s like in flash dance or something, but even more skimpy and she just runs around in it. As I said before, this is not a women’s ward. This is like Yeah. A, a mixed ward full of people. Full of, well, with one orderly and one nurse on duty all the time, but she just runs around, looks like just casually is talking to people like, what, why, what is the put on some sweatpants.

Todd: No, just wear your panties. This is the eighties and it’s a horror movie. 

Craig: I get it, but it’s stupid. 

Todd: It was fantastic. 

Craig: She looks like she’s going to a model shoot. 

Todd: Well, it’s true. I, I read something in the trivia that stated that that was not the original intent, but I cannot believe that one bit. 

Craig: I don’t believe that story.

I read that story too. It, it, it said something like, she felt like the hospital gown made her look too bulky, so she cut it short. Bullshit. That shirt was made like that, that was not a hospital gown. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s a hundred percent accurate. 

Craig: Yeah. If you’re a straight dude, she looks amazing. Like she looks, she looks good.

I, I get the appeal, but it’s just dumb. Like you’re in 

Todd: the 

Craig: hospital. Well, 

Todd: I love this because, I mean, well, we got Chris who’s gonna be like her little boyfriend for a little while. We got Bert the worrier. We get more visions, we get this crazy nun gal who you know is outside. She’s always on her knees praying and ranting on crazy religious gal.

Jane being tormented and you know, there’s just, like you said, there’s a bunch of business. Then there’s another dream sequence, which I absolutely loved, which was. Kiker cackling torture method. 

Craig: Yeah, I liked that too. But what is happening? Like why is she having these? I really, I did, I really enjoyed this scene.

It was maybe one of my favorite scenes, but it doesn’t have anything to do with anything. Of 

Todd: course not. 

Craig: Or it doesn’t seem to, 

Todd: no, it’s just her wakes up or appears to wake up, wander around the hallways, gets caught by Dr. Kiker gets strapped up in the showers, I guess, to some overhead hanging restraints.

And, uh, Dr. Kiker started tossing her down straight under her white T-shirt, which has the intended effect, and then the blast of the hose just tears her shirt right off 

Craig: Uhhuh, 

Todd: and then it moves up to her face. And you know, until, until her skin peels off from where it’s hitting her in the cheek and then she wakes up, we get the obligatory nice long breast shots that we need for a movie like this from the eighties.

And I was, I was entertained. 

Craig: Yeah. And she’s beautiful. She has a beautiful body. She looks fantastic. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s just so on the nose. I was like, 

Craig: yes, A white, white 

Todd: halter top. Okay, here’s where we’re going with that. 

Craig: Getting sprayed in the face. Come on. Yeah. I don’t know. And then there’s like little bits of exposition or drops, like somebody just happens to casually mention that everybody who’s in isolation, which is in a different building, I think it’s the building with the death.

Pit or whatever it’s called. And the evil doctor is looking for her and he kills the nice nurse and he carries her body to the isolation building and he’s 

Todd: got these red eyes that you’re glowing. Yeah. Again, pro, that’s probably why you were thinking of uh, Gies a bit too. I bet. Yeah. 

Craig: Well, yeah, and he still got.

The hole in his head. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: From where he got shot. And he looks pretty ghoulish and like after nice nurse gets killed, Chris, the normal guy who shouldn’t be in a mental institution is worried about her. And Jane just very casually says to him, yeah, she won’t be back. And he’s like, what? And she’s like, what?

Oh God. 

Clip: Oh my God. Yeah. 

Craig: And then they don’t talk about it anymore until later. That’s right. And then she has more hypnotherapy and the doctor brings out a memory of her when she’s a little girl and he asks her name and she says her, her name is Sarah. And he asked about her mom and her dad, and she says like, I’m not supposed to talk about daddy.

And then in the, the memory that she’s in. Her mom like comes and grabs her and is like, come on, we gotta go. We gotta go, we gotta go. We gotta run. We gotta go somewhere safe or something. And then she freaks out and the doctor shakes her out of it. And then this scene was so funny to me because. He surmises something that’s entirely not true.

He’s like, uh, yeah, I think you had some trauma. And she’s like, well, tell me. He’s like, no, I don’t usually tell people till later. She’s like, tell me now. And he is like, okay, well I think maybe your mom like took you from your dad and, and you’ve got some, 

Todd: like, where does he coming up with this? Right. 

Craig: I, I, yeah.

Like he makes it sound like the mother was. Kidnapping her. It’s so weird. 

Todd: It is weird, but as soon as this was over, I was like, oh, okay, now I get it. Now we know who daddy is. You know, like, 

Craig: I mean, I, it crossed my mind, but ugh, I just didn’t even care. I’m like, oh God, who cares? 

Todd: You didn’t wanna solve, you were not anxious to solve the mystery of this woman’s strange connection to this place.

Craig: She also, I think she says to him, there’s such great lines in this movie. She’s like, I have a terrible sense of danger here.

Todd: Oh my God. 

Craig: Then Bud, who was literally introduced by Chris as being twitchy, but harmless attacks an orderly for no reason. It’s like you’re all going down. 

Todd: Yeah, this place is going down. 

Craig: I don’t know. I think what they are trying to suggest is that whatever is happening here is happening. An adverse effect on the patients, 

Todd: like 

Craig: they can sense it, it’s riling them up.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: like, like he’s like, he’s not, he’s not a dangerous person. It’s only because of the presence of evil. Dr. Michael Myers, who’s still lurking around. He goes into that guy Bud’s padded cell and we don’t see what happens except for then, like an orderly sees bud like escaping and there’s a lot of these scenes.

Not a lot. I would say three or four of these scenes from this point forward where it’s hearing laughter or hearing something and then you like Bud or dead, nice nurse will just like walk across frame really fast or like cross a hallway or come out of a door and go into another door. Like they’re going really fast and it appears that you know they are zombies or their.

Possessed or whatever and you know, bud leads the orderly into the clock tower to his death. And 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: And that happens several times, uh, at some point. Nice nurse does that to mean nurse lures her in with creepy laughter and then kills her. 

Todd: Yeah. I think that, you know, this is what makes the movie rather long, is these sequences are really, really drawn out.

I think it loses some of the tension. They’re shot pretty well and there are moments where, you know, the camera will pan across and Jimmy was the name of the orderly is like wandering around looking for this guy. He’s, he’s chasing, and then as the camera pans by, you can see that he’s actually in the foreground around the corner.

But then as Jimmy gets there, then he’s gone again. I don’t know, I guess it’s just a little tough to sustain. You know, these shots sound right, but when they’re. Kind of put in sequence and just somebody who really doesn’t know exactly what they’re doing to make really good jump scares or whatever it, it just seems very pedestrian, you know?

It just feels like, okay, I’m gonna wait for Jimmy to find what he needs to find, or for this guy to spring up behind him and kill him, which he does. But Jimmy finds bur, 

Craig: yeah, 

Todd: I thought his name was Bert. It must be Bud. Something like that. 

Craig: I don’t know. Whatever. 

Todd: Strapped to a chair. With a drill, like it’s almost like a dentist drill or something just stuck in his eye, just going, going, going, going, going.

And that’s what freaks him out. And then he runs downstairs. He sees the hot nurse’s body there as well. Bad doctor comes up behind him and strangles him. And so now Jimmy’s out for the count, and now we’re getting a lot of the bodies piling up in this building that nobody can go into because it’s boarded up.

But yet everybody can go into. But because you just need to walk around the boards to get in. 

Craig: Also only like three or four people work in this entire ward. Yeah. So like they’re just kind of getting picked off. 

Todd: Let’s take it out 

Craig: everybody, but then also another, then we get a little bit into Freddie Krueger territory where bad doctor is taunting Jane and he quips like, yeah.

That was weird. She looks down and he’s, you know, standing down below her window as Mike Meyers will, but he’s like, I am the head surgeon here. And then he throws a head at her. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And there’s another one later where he eventually cuts out good doctor’s brain, and then he sees Jane again. He is like, doctor so and so wanted to give you a piece of his mind and throws the brain at her.

Like, really? 

Todd: Why not? I thought it was fun. But it does establish that we’re not necessarily, I think it’s trying to, anyway, establish that we can’t really trust what’s real and what’s not, because that turns out to be a dream for her. She wakes up. 

Craig: Which one? The head. 

Todd: The head one? Yeah. 

Craig: No, I didn’t realize 

Todd: that was As soon as she wakes, as soon as she screams and turns away that she suddenly wakes up and there’s a nurse there, she’s like, yeah, we gave you that sedative as you were freaking out.

You must have had a bad dream. And we’re only 45 minutes into the movie by this point, and 

Craig: I know we’re almost to the part where I thought it was surely almost over. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: She tells good doctor, that bad doctor is there. She’s like the surgeon who took my memories is here, and then there’s more hypnotherapy and I don’t know God.

Todd: Well, the doctor puts, it’s so funny that this whole deal about what she in the hallway was like, the people in the basement, they need to be let out. They need to be let out. And Dr. You know, that doesn’t stir anything up in Dr. Swan’s memory, but during her hypnotherapy, she goes back to her flashback and she has some vision.

And how she’s laying on a table. She can’t see the wall. She had to walk to the park from the hospital, and the, the surgeon doesn’t want her to be afraid. She goes, he smells like death, like formaldehyde. And suddenly Dr. Swan is like, whoa, formaldehyde. What? Describe this guy. 

Craig: I saw formaldehyde in the opening scene.

Todd: Yeah, a pitfall of dead bodies in the cellar is not gonna spur his memory, but for mal dyed it left a stronger impression on him. Anyway, meeting’s now coming to head like Jane is possessed now, like she’s. Briefly possessed by the bad doctor and says some things to the Dr. Swan. 

Craig: Yeah, I mean, she is like, she’s possessed by him.

She talks to him, I don’t remember what she says. Something ominous and then she comes back to herself and he’s like, get out. Get out. And he kicks her out and doesn’t tell her why. And he starts drinking whiskey out of the bottom drawer of his desk and calls the nurse and is like, give that girl double, double her cell sedatives and put her on Thorazine.

Like he just wants to like put her into a coma, 

Todd: right? Yep. 

Craig: But she goes to Chris. Yeah, she goes to Chris and she’s like, I need your help. And he is like, okay, tongue your meds. And she does. And they sneak out together and just as they’re about to escape, she gets out. But the orderly nabs. Chris, so she has to get away by herself and she goes to the clock tower and nice nurse like lures her.

She doesn’t realize that nice nurse is dead, dead. Nice nurse like lures her to the top and bad doctor is like lurking around and bad doctor confronts her and she runs and there’s a slow chase, like he’s chasing her through. The death pit. Oh. And chasing her upstairs and stuff so long, and I, oh, thank God.

This is it. Thank God. This is it. Like the, like the main villain is chasing the main girl, and that’s when I pause it and there’s still 40 minutes left. 

Todd: Yep. 

Craig: Huh. It’s like a whole, there is, there’s still a whole nother movie left. 

Todd: Oh. It’s so, it’s so sad because he catches up with her and she just like faints.

I guess no, because she’s, you’re right, there’s still a half an hour to go. ’cause I checked the time at exactly the same moment as you did. She’s tied up to a table, the dungeon, and this is when things get real. The living dead are unleashed. 

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: Suddenly the zombies are coming out of the pit and the doctor is standing there over them.

Cackling, evilly. And I was like, why? Why now? Why now are the evil dead? Coming to life, 

Craig: right? They all come up that spiral staircase and somehow Chris escapes and finds her and cuts her loose or whatever. And then the zombies, we see a couple of zombies. Uh, well, actually it’s like a whole hoard of zombies approach.

These cops who are totally oblivious, they’re just having a conversation in the foreground where this whole. Massive zombies are like creeping up behind them 

Todd: about donuts 

Craig: and, and they attack the cops and rip their heads open and eat their brains, because I guess that’s what zombies do. If you are an evil doctor who is, you know, I don’t know, lobotomizing people drawing weird, carving weird symbols into their chest, doing some kind of weird ceremony in the basement of some weird building.

You make zombies and they crave brains. I guess it’s, it doesn’t make any. Sense. 

Todd: Oh, it’s just a mishmash, right? Of just a whole bunch of ideas that are just thrown in here, but now it becomes a zombie movie. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: It moves from like sort of pseudo Freddy Krueger to full on thriller style zombie movie, and I was like, sure, why not?

You know? I actually thought this was the more interesting part of the whole movie, to be fair. There’s no mystery. You know, the kind of mystery or whatever in the beginning is, was pretty lame, but this, we actually got some kills and some pretty decent practical effects. I was kind of impressed actually.

Craig: Some of the practical effects are fun. Some of them look not good. There’s a part, I, I don’t know, I don’t remember who it is that maybe bad doctor, somebody dies in their head, like kind of shrinks, and then like, that’s later. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It, it just, it looks like a. I mean, I’m sure it is deflated. Exactly.

It’s a balloon deflating or some kind of bladder deflating, but I didn’t care for it. Some of it looks okay. I actually liked the brain eating. The brains didn’t look real, but they looked fun. It looked like a jello mold. 

Todd: Oh. The zombies would like 

Craig: brain or something, 

Todd: hold the brain out like whole and then hold it up like a trophy and go wandering off.

Like are they collecting these, are they gonna have like a big brain party later or something like that? 

Craig: I 

Todd: don’t They weren’t chowing into ’em right away. No. Or me. I think they just had one brain that they. They had to keep reusing 

Craig: probably evil dead, nice nurse kills mean nurse, which was fine. ’cause she was a real bitch.

Anyway. Yeah. And, and it’s just the way that she was written, everything she had to say was nasty. Like every, every line that she had was just nasty. Like, what’s wrong with you? And then. Uh, Chris and Jane like run to cars like they’re going to get away. Yes, but the hoods of all the cars are up and he’s like, 

Clip: damn, the distributor’s gone, but dead people, they sure are smart.

Craig: So we are to believe that these zombies have disabled all of the cars by pulling out the alternators. 

Todd: I loved that line. I thought. Once I heard that line, I thought, yeah, this movie clearly doesn’t take itself seriously. Well, they’re not particularly fast zombies, but just like in all these zombie movies, no.

Regardless they can get these people somehow and a stupid Jane as she’s running away from people keeps running into buildings. Instead of running down the street and getting help. 

Craig: Yes. And they’re in the hospital and on the ward. And at this point, well, and you get the thriller scene with the like behind the zombies and whatnot and then they’re in the hospital again.

And in my notes I have, where did all the other patients go? 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: This ward was full of people, 

Todd: full of potential victims too. I don’t know. 

Craig: Now it is abandoned. 

Todd: Yeah. Abandoned and dark. But the crazy nun gal pops it outta nowhere and tosses some holy water. Onto a zombie and had a cool melting effect. I really liked that bit.

Yeah, it was fun. It was fine. Yeah. So they’re like, oh my God, what’s this? And, and then the nun, because this is what happens in these movies too. And it happened in Bad dreams too. It was like the black girl in Bad Dreams. She just knows exactly what to do to fix this whole thing. 

Clip: Holy water, holy water kills the beast.

Where can we get more of this holy water system? Any water’s holy if it’s blessed, can holy water. Stop what’s happening here. Stop him. The place where the beast rises must be washed clean. The desecrated grounds must be made holy. 

Todd: And so I gotta give him credit for this. They figure out that Holy water is the answer.

And Chris Turn store was like, Hey, uh, how do you make holy water anyway? You know, can you just bless it? She’s like, well, I do the blessing, but God’s the one who consecrates it and he looks and he goes. Could you uh, just bliss that whole water tower over there? 

Craig: Yeah, that was pretty funny. 

Todd: I loved it. I’ve never seen that before and I don’t know why not.

’cause it is brilliant. I mean, just make the whole water supply holy water. 

Craig: Yeah. I don’t know. It was pretty funny. 

Todd: This is going down in my survival book for the zombie apocalypse. So he’s got his idea because he is the guy who’s into blowing things up. He thinks if he can go to the water tower and blow it up and tip it over, it’s just gonna make water go everywhere, especially into that building, which is conveniently placed right at the foot of the water tower.

Craig: Yes. 

Todd: So he wants to make a bomb. Meanwhile, Dr. Swan is like going kind of crazy himself and he just decides he is gonna go take care of Evil Doctor once and for all. And so he runs down to take care of evil doctor and ends up strapped to the table and he gets it. He’s being tortured. 

Craig: Yeah, that was, I, I kinda liked that scene too.

Not even because it looked particularly great, but just ’cause it was kind of fun and sadistic. Like 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: evil doctor gets good doctor on the table, and then the next time we see him, his head is shaved. So they took, I’m glad that they took the time to shave his head. No, 

Todd: I didn’t think of that. 

Craig: And his skull has opened up and his brain is exposed and then the evil doctor starts like poking it with needles and like good doctor is like laughing like it tickles.

Todd: Oh. Then he’ll like, be sad. Then he’ll be laughing again. I thought that was a particular, 

Craig: I thought that was. Kinda hilarious. 

Todd: It was funny, and it was also kind of sick. You know, I, I dug it like 

Craig: it was sick. 

Todd: By the time he was done, he had all these needles poking out of there. And by the way, the actor who plays good doctor Jeremy Slate, is just a screen and television veteran.

He was all over TV in the golden age of television, I recognized him a hundred percent, and I, he did a very, very long stint on General Hospital as well. I think he was in like, was it General Hospital or maybe it was one Life to Live. 

Craig: I don’t know, but I can see that. I mean, he, he seemed like he knew how to work in front of a camera.

Todd: He was good in this, honestly. 

Craig: Yeah. He didn’t have a lot to do, but he did well with what he had. 

Todd: That was probably my favorite bit. 

Craig: Yeah, I liked that part. I don’t know. I really liked the wet T-shirt dream, but we’ve got It’s 

Todd: expect that coming outta me more than coming outta you, Craig. I’m impressed. 

Craig: It wasn’t for the boobs.

I just thought it was a fun. Shot. But anyway, Jane and Chris are talking, you know, about what they’re gonna do or whatever, or they’re having a little heart to heart or something. And I, I think I heard it right. I’m pretty sure he said, come on. We’ve got a water balloon to drop on these assholes. Did he say that?

Todd: Yeah, he did.

Craig: Oh God, I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t take the time to rewind it. ’cause I was watching the second half of this right before we got on. I didn’t know if I would’ve time, but I was pretty sure he said that. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. Okay. So the nun chance and looks at the water tower. So I guess she’s making it holy. I mean, I don’t even know if this lady is really a nun or if she’s just a patient who thinks she’s a nun.

I, I don’t even know. 

Todd: She’s whatever she has to be to make it work. Apparently. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Cheryl’s being chased by the evil doctor. Done, eventually running back into the building like an idiot. And then there’s that moment where she ends up downstairs and finds Dr. Swan. And the evil doctor is there and she looks up at him and goes, daddy, 

Craig: yeah.

We get more of that flashback. She’s running away and she look like she falls and she reaches up her hand and it’s him. Meanwhile, Chris is at the top of the water tower setting a bomb. 

Todd: Yep. As the zombies are climbing up after him. 

Craig: Uh, bad and he fights one off. He lights the fuse on the bomb, then a zombie attacks him and he fights the zombie and he throws the zombie off the water tower and he has a little celebration, and then the bomb goes off and blows the whole thing up.

And I presume it blew him up too. 

Todd: You must’ve 

Craig: right? 

Todd: We don’t see him after this because he was 

Craig: no. But it was just pretty funny. Like he has this moment and like he’s got his hands up in the air. He is jumping up and like I did it. I did boom, and the water tower falls and it floods the dead pit. It looked to me like they did this with miniatures.

I couldn’t tell. 

Todd: Yeah, it looks very obvious. Miniature work 

Craig: with all the water. Flowing out of the windows and stuff. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And this, I also did not understand this part because the water floods at this point, the zombies are not in the dead pit. 

Todd: Correct. 

Craig: But, but the water falls into it and evil doctor just starts to disintegrate.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Well, and the dis, the disintegration looks pretty good. It’s only when they used the air bladder to like shrink his head that I thought it didn’t look very good. Mm. I, I guess we’re just to presume that the same thing happened to all the other hundreds of zombies that were just out and around. 

Todd: I think so, because the nerd, the nun almost kinda says like, once we like flood the consecrated ground or the dead pit or whatever, with the, with the holy water, it’s gonna solve everything.

So I think it, we are just to assume that they. They all dropped dead just like the doctor did. 

Craig: Okay. 

Todd: And it was a cool effect. You’re right. I, I actually enjoyed that. They lingered on that quite a bit. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: That’s why I thought, you know, this movie had more production value than I expected and. I think a lot of money went into some of these special effects that they lingered on a lot.

Aside from that, it’s just people in places, you know? So that’s not like, 

Craig: yeah, 

Todd: it’s gonna be much more impressiveness. 

Craig: Well, and, and then it, and then it ends, you know, it, it comes in a close shot on Jane and she finds, I guess, in the pool of Mushy Goo, that was her dad. She finds his ring and she puts it on and she’s like kneeling, sitting on her feet and her, she’s kind her.

Her face is kind of tilted down and her eyes are closed, and I’m like, she’s obviously gonna open her eyes and they’re gonna be glowing. And that’s exactly what happens. Yep. And that’s the end. I did not care for this movie. There are, there are things that I can appreciate it. There are, there are brief scenes that I enjoyed.

I enjoyed some of the special effects, but I didn’t care for it because unlike. The bite, which I felt like you didn’t like, I felt like this story was nonsensical. It just, it, it felt lazy. Like, it just felt like let’s throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Whereas in the bite, at least I had an emotional investment in the characters.

Like I, I didn’t think that they were smart, but I liked them and I cared about them. And in this, I was like, oh my God, just who cares? 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: whatever’s gonna happen just happen already. 

Todd: Fair enough. I mean, this movie was very pedestrian as far as these things go. It, it’s just a mishmash of other films. Some better, some just as bad and you know, it kind of goes through the motions and it doesn’t really go any, I I would, I mean, it does go a couple places.

I wasn’t expecting. But it wasn’t like groundbreaking, amazing. You know, it’s just like, oh, now it’s a zombie movie. Okay. I like the fact that they got the, you know, the special effects were kind of fun. I don’t know, to me it was just kind of, eh, I didn’t dislike it. I didn’t particularly like it. I just thought, oh, this is another one of those movies.

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd: Bad Dreams was a better version of this kind of movie because it 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Had compelling characters and it had a twist at the end. It had an actual mystery and it was just kind of altogether better. 

Craig: I think that this would be something that would be perfectly fine to put on in the background, like 

Todd: right.

Craig: If you’re doing something else, I mean, there are, there are some good visuals and it’s ho, it’s hokey and silly and I mean, it can be kind of amusing in that way, but to sit down and watch it for the full, whatever the runtime is. Yeah. Feels even longer than it actually is, was tedious. It felt like work.

Like I don’t like for the podcast to feel like work. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, this, this felt like a chore that I had to do, not something that I wanted to do. And if I had put it on for myself, I would’ve turned it off probably 15, 20 minutes in. 

Todd: I, I have a confession that after the first 45 minutes, I put it at one and a half speed.

It was much more watchable at that point, in that way. 

Craig: Yeah. I, I can, I, I, I imagine. 

Todd: Do you ever do that? I do that more often than I, 

Craig: no, I don’t, I’ve never done it with a movie, I guess. I’ve never tried. I do it with audio books all the time, 1.5 or two. Mm-hmm. I, I currently am listening to our. Next Book Club book, head Full of Ghosts by Paul Trimble at 1.5 Speed.

And we haven’t talked to our book club. Everybody’s been busy for the holidays, so it’s been a while since we’ve talked to them, but I’m looking forward to talking to them next week. And listeners. If you would ever be interested in being a part of that or the rest of our Patreon community where you can find like Mini SOS and some behind the scenes insight.

Todd and I recently got together and posted some pictures of of that on the Patreon. You too can be privy to that for just $5 a month. 

Todd: That’s right. It’s a good time. 

Craig: What’s the website, Todd? 

Todd: The website is chainsaw horror.com. Patreon website is patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Well, thank you Craig for doing my work for me.

This at the very end here, really 

Craig: appreciate, I saw the opportunity and I took it. 

Todd: That’s perfect. Well, I have very little left to add to that. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we’re tackling the 1989 direct-to-video horror sequel “Curse II: The Bite” (aka “The Bite”), directed by Frederico Prosperi.

This movie has a lot going for it: ’80s time-capsule vibe, TV-heavy cast (including Jamie Farr, Sidney Lassick, and Brion James), and practical body-horror effects by Screaming Mad George. The plot follows a young couple on a road trip after Clark is bitten by a mutant snake, leading to an escalating transformation into a snake-armed—and eventually snake-spewing—monster, while Farr’s character pursues them after giving the wrong antidote.

The chemistry of the leads and the wild effects-heavy finale don’t completely save the film from a draggy second act, but nevertheless we recommend it for fans of ’80s horror and practical effects.

Episode 473, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, this week we are going back into the eighties. Or is it the nineties? Gosh, it’s that. It’s one of those movies. 89? Yeah. 89. Okay. 1989 movie called Curse 2: The Bite, or sometimes simply known as The Bite, which was directed by Frederico Prosperity.

The only. Film that he has directed actually, I mean, it’s kind of well directed, honestly, and it’s well shot and it’s the second in a series of movies that does, I think what Silent Night, deadly Night kind of did, which is you take. This movie that did really, really well. And then you take another movie that has nothing to do with it and you just tack on a sequel title to it and try to write off the coattails of that.

And apparently it was successful for this movie. Uh, this was released straight to video in 89 and apparently did really well after Curse did well as well. And I think it led to two other sequels that are in the similar vein that have nothing to do with each other. Curse three right. And Curse four.

Which stars? Christopher Lee. I think personally we need to get to every movie in this series because it seems about as bad shit crazy as this one. Yeah. The first two are the only ones I’ve seen. Oh, you’ve always seen the first two. Okay. So you’d seen this before. I, I hadn’t, I hadn’t. What made you decide to do this?

Craig: Oh, well, it was silly. I hadn’t thought of this movie in years, but I was looking at bloody disgusting and the Anaconda reboot came out a week or two ago. And sometimes when movies come out, they’re like, here are some other snake movies that you could watch. Uh, and this was one of them. And I, I remembered it fondly without really remembering why I remembered it fondly.

One of the reasons is nostalgia. This is one of those movies that takes me back to riding bikes with my cousin, riding to the video store. Perusing the, the wall of of movies, and this was one that I think I, I don’t know if they were ever as excited. About horror movies as I was, I think they just indulged me, but whatever.

We had a good time. I, I really enjoyed the first one. The first one has Will Wheaton in it, uh, I think it was his first movie and it’s gross and, and body horror and, and fun and eighties, and I really liked it. So when I saw this one, I was excited to pick it up off the shelves. And honestly, I don’t remember.

How we [00:03:00] necessarily exactly responded to it at the time, but I imagine that we probably really dug it because Yeah, I’ll bet you did. It’s, I, it’s the kind of thing exactly we were looking for, you know, gross and cool effects and you know, pretty people, both of the main actors are very attractive and, and likable, which I think is one of the things that the movie has going for it the most.

Like, I really like the central characters. Hmm. I mean, it’s definitely a movie of its time. This is, like you said, uh, it’s a time capsule for me and I didn’t even watch it before. I don’t have the memories associated with you do, but what I do have is the memories associated with these eighties movies where it’s all jazz saxophone or synth score with the dark streets and smoke coming around, like there’s so much smoke and dark streets and rainy, wet streets in this.

Todd: That, uh, it did take me back. And of [00:04:00] course also what took me back is the cast. It’s just full of TV actors, which is very typical for low budget horror movies at this time. You know, this was back in the day, and we’ve talked about this before, but it’s back in the day when. There wasn’t much crossover between television actors or movie actors.

Once you chose one and got successful in one, you were typically kind of stuck in that medium, uh, and nobody really took you seriously if you tried to go from television to film. But a lot of TV actors would do some horror movies to try to get their film chops up and, and many ended up making successful crossovers, or at least popping into the film world every now and then.

For me, oh my god. Seeing, um, Jamie Farr in this was, uh, was hilarious because that guy is a staple of television and, and movies, I suppose. Yeah. But Jesus, Jamie Farr, I know, well, I mean, I even recognize the name, but he’s so recognizable both in face and voice. I was like, gosh, I [00:05:00] know, I know this guy. Where do I know him from?

Craig: And I pulled up his IMDB. I was like, oh, the eighties. Everywhere. Everything. He was on, everywhere. He was on every television show, like. He was just a, wasn’t Neil ready all over the place? I wanna say he was a regular Ash. Yeah. I, I, I, I might be wrong about that, but I’m pretty sure he was. That sounds right.

Todd: I saw him in person. He came to the, what’s that theater in Kansas City? Where the dinner theater, is it still around? Uh, I don’t know. Used, I’m not sure. I’ll be, there’s a dinner theater in Kansas City. I, I used to go to pretty regularly whenever I could drive in and get the chance, and they would always have some.

Headliner there in the show. That was some typically like a older actor who’s a little past their prime, but, uh, going out doing live theater and stuff and, and Jamie Farr was in, oh God, what was it? Whatever he was in, it was charming. ’cause this guy is kind of the same in everything he plays, but he’s just such a nice, charming [00:06:00] dude.

Mm-hmm. That I enjoy seeing him up there. And he’s got this. Crazy, incredible voice too. Anyway, I, I really liked seeing him in this, even if, even if it felt just a little bit incongruent. He, he really, I think, provided the humor for the film, but it’s such a weird plot. It’s so bizarre, and when you break it on down, it’s really just about a guy and his struggles with his snake hand and the woman who loves him.

Yeah. You know, oh, it’s funny. I, uh, I’m, I’m not getting the impression that you were particularly impressed as I was watching it. I was like, oh, man, I thought it was super fun. Like, I, I don’t know. There was, there was a lot going on that I really like. It was fun for me. No, don’t get me wrong, it was really, really fun.

But I did kind of remark at how not a lot is happening. There’s a lot going on, but. It’s all kind of like, same samie, right? Once this guy gets bitten, right. And he’s got a snake arm, it’s really just they’re traveling across the country and this guy’s going [00:07:00] after them. And that’s it, you know, until the very end.

Craig: Yeah. I, uh, I can see that it, it drags a little bit in the middle, but I don’t know. I just really like the premise, uh, like you said, the, the curse movies. They have really nothing in common other than the title, except for both this movie and the first one, our body horror movies and, and good. Like, this is great.

Eighties effects. Yes. Done by screaming Mad George, who you know, did I think Predator and what else is he, I mean he did, he’s done a bazillion things society. Don’t forget society. Yeah. The peak. He, he did the, uh, cockroach motel kill scene in, uh, dream, not Dream more. Yeah. No, not Dream Warriors, whatever.

Four part Four. Four. Yeah. Part four. Dream Master. Uh, yeah, dream Master Memory Home Street, which is one of my favorite kills in that whole franchise. But yeah, he’s done tons of stuff and it’s all practical. And does it all look [00:08:00] amazing? No, some of it actually looks kind of corny, but it’s just really fun to see and, and to watch.

And you know, the setup is pretty simple. We open. With a very vague shot of the desert and it says Yellow sands, nuclear base, Arizona, and guys in hazmat suit, catch a snake. That’s it. Yeah. That’s maybe all we’re given. That’s your explanation. Yeah, that’s, yeah. So I don’t know, scientists were messing with snakes and now we’re gonna have a snake problem.

Todd: Do you think there’s some implication that there is like some kind of like nuclear testing or something going on? Yeah. I mean guess. Yeah, I think so. I just figured, I do think so. Yeah. Uh, you know, ’cause later some guy says like, they poison the ground, they poison the water. That, that sounds like maybe nuclear testing.

Craig: I don’t know. It’s a handy catch. Yeah. We’re immediately introduced to this really attractive young couple Clark, who’s played by a guy named Jay Eddie Peck, who’s very handsome. Really [00:09:00] nice. Backside on that one, but I think that he is still on daytime soap that he’s been on for a while, if I remember correctly.

But he was doing other stuff around this time. I think he’s been on the Young and the Restless since like the mid nineties and he’s still going. But then there was also all my Children and Days of Our Lives very long runs on those. Was that around the time you stopped watching? I don’t know. I don’t know.

I didn’t remember him from Days of Our Lives, but I didn’t explore it. At length, so Okay. Maybe if I had my memory refreshed. I don’t know. But anyway. And his girlfriend is, and I say girlfriend, you find out later that they really haven’t been together very long. Yeah. That surprised me when she said that.

Todd: I was like, what you guys, you guys seem like you were really, really settled and into each other. And then she’s like, you barely know me. I was like, what? Right. We’ve only been together two weeks, like. Wow. I mean, they really settled in fast. They sure did, but she’s played by Jill Soland, who had a moment [00:10:00] here in the late eighties.

Craig: The thing that I remember her from and that we’ve done is popcorn. In which she was the lead, but she’s done some other stuff too. She’s very pretty and she has a very distinctive husky voice, which is sexy. She sings at some point in this, in the movie, and I was surprised to find that she actually has a really pleasant singing voice.

But I just thought, not that the acting was amazing, but I just felt that these two leads had a chemistry and, and such comfort together. That I, I, I believed them and I liked them and I was glad that we were gonna be with them for a while. They did feel real. One of the things that this movie really has going for it is the quality of the acting.

Todd: I mean, we’ve seen a lot of cheesy stuff and, and weird straight to video stuff, and I think this movie at least, is well acted. Everybody, almost everybody involved, even if some of the characters are kind of caricatures and [00:11:00] and silly. These two had a dynamic. I think you’re right. That worked and that made sense and felt believable.

I was just shocked that she stayed with him for so long and she only knew this guy for two weeks. Like, yeah, she’s dedicated. She had to be really, uh, the sex must have been really good. Well, it was hot to watch. I mean, whatever you could see of it, it was all in darkness. Again. True. Typical eighties silhouette, darkness.

And it wasn’t. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like silhouette it against like a blue screen. Yeah. It’s great. With the saxophone playing. Yeah. And you say that some of the characters are really, you know, like caricatures and they’re driving through the desert and they stop at a gas station where the gas station dentist is like, she sure do.

Craig: Got a pretty mouth. Oh god. I thought it was great that this movie basically opens with the gas station scene. I mean, they’re getting right into it. Yes. I [00:12:00] knew you would at least appreciate that with the gas station guys. I sure wouldn’t go that away if I were you. And he gets in the car and he is like, we’re going that way.

Yeah, we’re going, I don’t know what’s wrong with that guy. I’m taking this shortcut. Yeah. So they take it anyway. And then you get the title sequence where you see that there are snakes everywhere in this jungle. Snakes in the, or the jungle. The desert. Desert. So that’s in the snakes in the sand, snakes in the fences, snakes all over the highway, just snakes everywhere.

Todd: Yeah, this, uh, this place got infested with snakes. I guess the army didn’t do such a good job of picking ’em up, but yeah. And, and then they run over a bunch of snakes and they, there must be snakes for miles because how long the scene stretches on, where it’s showing them running over piles and piles of snakes in the highway, and then they’re just like, looking down, oh my God, oh my god.

Will this ever end? This was my, wow. This was probably my favorite [00:13:00] part. Right before that, they had stopped and she had almost gotten bit by a snake, but he shot it and we see snake, POV as snake crawling into their car. So we know that there’s a car in there, or excuse me, a car’s, there’s a snake in the.

Craig: There’s a snake in the car with them now, and then there’s that nest of snakes that covers the road. I didn’t watch the credits closely, and I don’t recall reading anything in the trivia about how they shot this scene. It sure looked like real snakes. Yeah, I mean, it did. I don’t think so. I think they’re rubber snakes a a lot.

Todd: They were flying up in the air. I, I sort of feel like if you were rule riding over real snakes in this, that they would more or less just kind of squish and maybe, I don’t know. They were, they were bouncing around an awful lot to be, to be real snakes, I think. But you’re right, it looked real. And I asked myself the exact same thing because sometimes these Italian productions, you know, they were not, uh, yeah.

Too kind to the [00:14:00] animals. And the scene of them running them over probably doesn’t take more than 10, 15 seconds. I don’t know, but. I was watching it on YouTube, and I guess by default the subtitles were on and I didn’t turn them off, but they weren’t like the official subtitles. They were like the YouTube subtitles.

Oh. And when they start running them over and the snakes are spraying everywhere and blood spraying everywhere, he says, my God, what is that? And she screams his name twice. Clark. Clark. But the subtitles were, my God, what is that? Pork pork

Craig: and I laughed for a solid minutes, like all these snakes flying around. Pork. Pork, it’s hilarious. Uh, looks really good. Yeah. Well, I, I do wonder if they shot, there’s a, there’s a scene a little bit later where a snake gets shot and it sure looks like. They probably just shot a snake, although who knows, you know, screaming Mad.

Todd: George could do some pretty good effects. [00:15:00] As we will see later. They end up at a gas station. It looks kind of abandoned, but then there’s a dude inside who sticks a rifle through the door. Again, it, we get two gas station scenes. Now this one reminded me a little bit of the hills have eyes. You remember there’s that Yes.

One gas station out? Yes. In the middle of the desert that’s su surrounded by danger and why this guy is still out there. We don’t know. Right, but there he is. And maybe because he is a little crazy, he’s complaining about underground nuclear testing. A snake bite killed his dog. Did that actually happen or did I just have in my notes that he’s talking?

Craig: No, it did he? Yeah. He says Clarks, he’s a picture of a dog and he says, nice looking dog. And he’s like, yeah, she was. He’s like, what happened to her snake bite. Okay, that makes sense now. Yeah, and I don’t know, he, you know, talks, like you said, he talks about like the effects of the nuclear testing or whatever and like the snake watches Lisa put on some pants.

That was [00:16:00] funny. Yeah. Pervy snake. POVI think that’s hilarious. I also love, we’ve got this other thing that you often see in these movies where on his way to the bathroom. Clark ends up exploring a barn. It’s the Goonies. No, it’s not a barn. Like he’s going down, I don’t know, it’s inside the station or something, but he has to go through these like dark corridors or whatever, and he hears a strange noise off to the side.

It looks like a barn because the whole, suddenly the underground is a whole bunch of boarded walls with light streaming through them. I swear that was a bar. I mean, it must have been shot in a bar. Couldn’t have been under. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the gas station he goes in, so I don’t know if it’s Oh, okay.

Like some kind of shop or whatever. Yeah. So he hears, he’s on his way to the bathroom, but he hears a weird noise and he looks, but the attendant catches him and kicks him out before he can see what’s going on. But it sounds like a dog whimpering. Right. Which confuses him because he thought the dog was dead.

And he is like, [00:17:00] I thought you said your dog was dead. And the guy’s, like I said, a lot of things and then kicks him out. Kicks him out and then, uh, later the attendant, we see him trying to coax this thing out, this dog from under the table. And he gets attacked. And it’s interesting filming. I mean, I think it was great.

Todd: Sometimes these low budget movies try not to show their hand too early ’cause they don’t wanna either. Maybe they don’t have such great special effects or they wanna save the monster for later. But we get to see little bits and pieces of the monster throughout this. And, uh, this was kind of an interesting mix of slow-mo closeup shots, puppetry.

It, it looks like this weird half snake head with fangs that, uh. You get the gist of it and bites him in the head. Yeah. You get more or less the gist, but you do get to see a bit of it. Mm-hmm. You know, but it looks like, it’s like the thing, you know, it, it’s kinda a formless mass with recognizable parts, you know, and I Right.

I like that. And it bites his head and it’s all in silhouette. But, uh, [00:18:00] that was pretty brutal. Then we click back to Clark and Lisa and their trip across the country, by the way. Yeah. Do we know where they’re going? I think they’re just road tripping. Like I, I think that they’re just planning on stopping and going to bars and dancing and stuff and having a good time.

Craig: Really? I, I guess so. I don’t know. They, they never mention a destination that I can recall. But you’re, you, you’re right. They stop at this motel and there’s, you know, people out and about at the motel or whatever, and she reaches into the car to like get the birds. She has these. Birds in a cage. Yeah. And I don’t know, something, something spooks her or, or the, the birds are spooked or something.

And so Clark’s like, hold on a second, get back. And he reaches in there and he gets bit presumably by a snake and all of these people who are outside, run around trying to help. And one of the little girls, I think her name’s Heather, is like, there it is. I see it. It’s slithering away. And Lisa’s like, are you sure?

And the mom’s like, [00:19:00] if my Heather said it, it’s true. Stupid. So stupid. Yep. And, and there’s this, there’s this other guy, Harry Jamie Farr, who appear, you know, he’s just staying at the motel, but he presents himself and I have in my notes, Harry is a doctor and he tells them not to worry. You know, he, he takes a look at the.

Bite. And he is like, oh, that’s just a, uh, chicken snake bite. It’s not a big deal. If I give you this antidote, you’ll be fine. And they’re like, okay. So he gives the antidote and then Clark’s like, thanks, doc. And he’s like, oh, I’m not a doctor. Yeah. What, what was he anyway, that was somebody, I have no idea.

Todd: He’s just the businessman. Yeah, the random businessman. Yeah. He’s some kind of tr. Traveling businessman. He, he knows the roads, he knows the truckers on the roads, and they all know him. I don’t know what his business is, but it’s never clear guy. Can you imagine, [00:20:00] can you imagine somebody like offering you medical aid and like administering from his suitcase an injection, right?

Craig: Thanks doctor. And they’re, oh no, I’m not a doctor. Like, what’s, what are you doing? Why do you have. Anti-venom and syringes in your suitcase? I guess just be prepared or whatever, I guess. Yeah. That, that is pretty funny. There’s another dude with him. Oh right. He’s the hotel manager. He. He literally says, and I’m the hotel manager.

Todd: I’m Luke I checking you in or something. And that’s another one of our, uh, very famous actors, Sidney Lasik, who, I mean, one flew over a Cuckoo’s nest, his character in that, the kind of neurotic, weird dude. He, he, again, the, the character he plays in almost every movie that he’s in. And he’s been in a lot like Carrie and I mean, you see him and immediately you’re like, oh, that guy.

Craig: Oh yeah, yeah. He’s been everywhere. Lady in white, he was in that, and I was surprised to see the two of them together in this scene. [00:21:00] And then Sidney Lasek, I don’t. Think he really ever comes back. You know, I don’t know the trajectory of these guys’ careers. I’m guessing Jamie Farr was nearing the twilight of his, uh, television career, maybe nearing it, but he was still kind of in the thick of it at that point.

Todd: I think still late eighties. Yeah. I honestly was just kind of surprised to see them both in this scene and though neither of them I would consider a-list actors. I thought that their presence and their presence together. Lended a legitimacy to the movie that I didn’t expect. Oh, it sure did. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I know what you’re saying.

I thought the same thing. I was like, these two guys are in this movie. This is a bigger thing than I thought, but for a direct to, but you know, you’re right. Neither of them are a-list. They’re just like really re working actors, really recognizable and very working and very well respected, so. Right. Right.

Craig: And you’ll definitely, if you know, if, if you’re anywhere near our age, anywhere near, you will a hundred percent recognize both of these guys. [00:22:00] And then there’s the sex scene in the hotel, which I really thought was sexy. Like I, I, I don’t know if I was in some kind of mood or something, but I was just, was like, God, they are, they are both so hot and like, they’re so hot together.

And like, yeah, but oof. I like it. It’s like, it’s like 10 seconds long and then it ends abruptly. It was so jarring. How I almost felt like it had been cut. Maybe it was, I don’t know. Yeah, I think it might have been, but uh, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s going, it’s like, oh, this is kind of cool. And then boom, she’s in the shower and there’s more snake POV in the motel room, like, well, that was quick.

Yes. I, this was my favorite snake. POV. It took me a second, just a second, but a second to realize that it was crawling out of the guitar. It had been in the guitar this whole time. Realize. Yeah, and it, it slithers onto the bed and something that I don’t quite understand. There’s a big slime motif in the movie.

Yes. That I’m not, I don’t really get, like, [00:23:00] the way that she first is alerted that something is awry is she picks up her panties and they are covered in slime, and then she sees the snake slithering around under the sheets and she destroys her guitar. Killing it, which I couldn’t believe she did that. I was like, yeah, yeah, there’s something else.

That’s an expensive guitar. Right. But I have in my notes, it puts up a fight. But then she, you know, when Clark comes back, he’s like, it must’ve been in the guitar case the whole time. And I just put in my notes that little bitch Heather was a liar.

She’s got her mom snowed. I think it’s interesting that Harry. Jamie Farr’s character knows so much about snake. Yeah. He, he must sell that venom or something. That must be, that’s gotta be it. Maybe because he knows a lot about snake. He knows a lot about snakes. He knows a lot about venom and, uh, he immediately comes in, I think, oh, because the maid.

Todd: So I, the, the couple leaves. And they [00:24:00] just leave the, the bloody snake there and the maid comes running out screaming. And, uh, that brings the two of them back in. Jamie and, and his buddy. And he looks at and immediately gives us the whole spiel that movies do. Oh, this isn’t that, this isn’t the snake. I thought it was.

This is a bush master snake. They’re mutant snakes and this, this is terrible. If, if that kid doesn’t get the right antidote, he’s gonna die. I need to go find him as though altruism isn’t enough. You know, he’s getting threatened apparently, or he gets this notion put in his head by another friend that if he doesn’t find this kid and give him the right venom and get him to sign a some kind of agreement that he’s not gonna sue him.

Then he’s gonna lose, uh, his license, his license to do what? I don’t know, but, uh, he’s gonna lose everything. ’cause he is gonna get sued. Yeah. So, yeah, he’s not a doctor, but he’s afraid of losing some license. Anyway, the guy, his friend George Sidney Lasek is like, but you didn’t do anything wrong. You tried to help.

Craig: You gave him that antidote. And he’s like, oh [00:25:00] yeah, there were whit. This is when I gave that antidote. So he calls his lawyer and his lawyer says, you’re gonna be charged with, uh, administering medications without a medical license. And especially if he dies, you’re gonna be completely liable for his death.

And I think that’s legit. Like he’s probably right. Yeah, you’re probably right. You shouldn’t be, you, especially, you know, any medication, but especially intravenous anodes or whatever. It’s, it’d be one thing if you just gave him a pill. It’s another thing when you like injected him with stuff that’s a whole other, right, right.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. But so he’s in pursuit and he remains in pursuit. This is also kind of a weird road movie. Yeah. So they’re on the road, he’s in pursuit. He is looking for them. He’s like calling all his trucker friends. His trucker friends are keeping an eye out, whatever. You can’t gloss over this scene about his trucker friends.

This is a another little time capsule. There was this period of time between the seventies and the eighties, uh, where everybody was like interested in this trucker, [00:26:00] the life of truckers and how they’re on their CBS all the time and chattering back and forth. And I think I talked about this on an earlier episode that that song Convoy came out and there was even a movie about, it was Kris Kristofferson.

And I mean, every now and then when you’re in a movie from the eighties, you see this whole trucker thing coming up and I’m like, oh, this is cute and fun. And I remember this. And you know, when we went on road trips, my, my family did not stay in hotels. We, we were in a camper that we drove around and we would drive for a whole day or two just to get to where we were going.

We never got to take an airplane or anything like that. And my dad had a CB in the car. He had a CB in there just in case there was anything. Wrong. Like it was mostly for emergencies. Sure. But sometimes he would kick it on and we would listen in on their chatter. That seems risky. Yeah, right. With young kids in the car.

Yeah. And he would also do like fuzz checks, which is what they called them, the police or the fuzz. And uh, you know, he could just get on there and my dad would do it. He is like, watch this. They’d be like, yeah, [00:27:00] I’m heading east on 70, just past the such and such mile mark. Just doing a fuzz check. And then people would get on and be like, oh, you’re all clear, or No, I saw a cop at such and such mile marker.

I saw a cop and I just thought, man, these guys, they’re all in it together and they’re all moving in different directions and how they’re able to like do this coordination and even think to remember certain things in case anybody else asks about it. It’s like an early version of the internet kind of.

It was so cool. It was really cool and, and these characters are very stereotypical and one of them is Flo and it’s clear that he and Flo have had interactions because they do a little bit of flirting over the cb and this is where the movie changes tone a little bit. And that surprised me that suddenly we’re in this whole comic.

Scene with him flirting with Flo and the other guys teasing them and these very caricature characters with like big beards and no teeth or you know, this kind of bigger woman who’s like coming onto this [00:28:00] guy and them all laughing and stuff. It was, it was an interesting change in tone from the rest of it.

Craig: Yeah, I get what you’re saying and I don’t, I, I mean, I a hundred percent agree. It definitely, they are definitely going for some humor here. But it didn’t feel out of place. Like I didn’t find it jarring. Not really. I don’t know. But then this is immediately followed by this extremely stylish sequence of going into this cowboy bar.

Todd: I mean, with this moving camera and the Well, right. Right. Before that, I don’t, I don’t even remember what the context of their conversation was, but we see a conversation right before they go to this bar where she says something and he’s like, oh no, I. Kill myself before I’d ever harm a hair on your head or something like that.

Craig: Oh, yeah. It’s a very pointed talk about jealousy based on something she’s reading. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then they go to this bar. Now I, I don’t remember this exactly. And, and you can talk about, you know, the cinematography, what it looked like. I was just more intrigued by the relationship dynamic [00:29:00] because.

He has not been feeling great and he’s not really looking great. I mean, he’s been bit by a snake. These are things that you could probably anticipate and should probably call for more alarm. The fact they didn’t want to go to a hospital and they just thought this antidote was gonna do its thing while he’s still not doing well.

Todd: It was kind of silly. Yeah, and he’s getting worse. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s. It’s slow at first, but it’s progressive. But as they’re pulling into the city, she’s like, ah, come on. The music’s gonna be jumping. And he’s like, no, I really don’t feel good. I just wanna go to the hotel and go to sleep. She’s like, ah, come on.

Craig: And he says, okay. Yeah. And then they go in there and they’re sitting at the bar and they’re drinking. And some guy in a bold move. Comes up and asks her to dance. Now, I wouldn’t say that he was rude or inappropriate, I would just say that it was bold. Yeah. You know, they’re clearly there together to come up and ask a woman who’s clearly there with another man to dance, I don’t think is inappropriate, [00:30:00] but you, you might get punched.

I don’t know, whatever. Yeah. And she says yes, which I also don’t think is at all inappropriate. Like I think that’s fine. You can dance with other people. That’s not a problem. The way they dance, I would’ve gotten jealous. Uhhuh. Yeah, he’s definitely putting the moves on her right in front of this other guy.

Todd: Now, to be fair, the other guy I don’t think is even facing them the whole time because he, he, no, I don’t think so either. But still, you’re right. You wouldn’t do that. He is feeling really, really bad. And at one point. He taps a fly into his beer. There’s like a fly walking around the edge of his beer and he taps the, the beer and it, and it falls into the liquid and he drinks it like very deliberately.

So we see something weird is up with him and I dunno, you’ve watched enough horror movies, you know exactly what’s been going on, but. He brings the girl back and she comes over all smiling and he wheels around and slaps her and calls her a bitch and goes Stumbling off to the bathroom. Yeah, and, and he goes stumbling off to the bathroom.

Craig: This was something that struck [00:31:00] me as being very a product of the time because. I can’t imagine something like that happening in public and there not being immediate response from the other people around. Right? Oh, she flies across the room, into the table and like sprawls across the pool table. And there there’re in a crowded bar, like there are people all around who witness this happen, and nobody does.

I mean, they stand there and look in shock, but they don’t do or say anything. Yeah, that was weird to me. But yeah, he goes into the bathroom and his hand is looking all gross. And the guy that she was dancing with comes in and is like, you better come outta there. I I’ll smack you around. You like smacking women or whatever.

Clark is literally like curled up on the floor by the toilet. He’s shaking, he’s sweaty. He looks awful. Yeah. And, and the guy comes and Craig, was that a glory hole in front of him? There was a hole in the wall. Did you not notice that? I may not have [00:32:00] noticed there was, but if there was, if there was, then yes, it was, let’s just call it that.

Todd: I was a little surprised at how this giant packed bar. Had a men’s room that was completely devoid of any human except for him. I, I just thought it was crazy. But anyway, they needed to get him alone with this dude. And you’re right, this guy comes in and is, uh, is, is angry, and he sees Clark cowering in the toilet and.

Then it doesn’t, it doesn’t go well for him. Well, he puts his cigarette out on his bandaged hand, but I don’t even really remember. Do we even really see what happens? No, we really don’t see what happens. We just hear like this screaming and stuff back. Back at the, yeah. Yeah. They’re back at the hotel.

Immediately after this, he flies out of the bathroom and grabs her and gets her out of there. So something happened in the bathroom that he’s trying to get away from. Right. Right. You’re right. You, we, you’re right. We don’t see anything there. And then, so now she’s [00:33:00] mad and this is when we learned back at the hotel that she really doesn’t know him very well.

It’s like, you think you own me? You don’t even know me. We’ve only been together for two weeks. It’s like, oh my God. I was really shocked by that. And then we cut over to Harry and Flo, who are waking up, and I think they ended up hooking up in her, in her, uh, semi. And they have a little chat and Harry’s upset that he gave the wrong antidote and all that stuff.

And. I don’t know. There’s not, well, there really wasn’t much point to that scene except it just kind of brings flow into all of it, doesn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. The, the night before, like when they were fighting, she says the next day that she’s gonna leave. Oh, right. She just wants him to drop him off somewhere.

Craig: And, and he storms out. She finds him sleeping outside in the morning and they get in the car together and it, and, and it just so happens that Harry and Flo are at the same truck stop as the motel that the young couple is staying at. And he sees, I. I hate this stuff. I hate this when it’s like this huge coincidence.

Todd: They happen to be at the same place, right where they were [00:34:00] looking for him. He happens to walk out of the the truck at the same moment that she’s storming out and they’re driving off. I mean, come on. I know it’s, it’s very much a movie Contrivance, but, and now, but anyway, yeah, you’re right. That happens and it’s a little comical, supposedly because now.

Harry runs out with his, pulling all his pants up and his clothes half off into the street as he’s trying to chase down the Jeep. As it drives away, flows like, ah, Harry ha. Yeah. Right? And, and so he saw, he sees them and he calls his friends and say, because he gets the license plate number now, he has their license plate number at least, and then we’re with a young couple and she’s like, maybe I’ll just catch a bus and go somewhere.

Craig: And he’s quiet until he just. Reaches his snake hand over between her leg and starts playing with her while she’s driving and she’s really into it. And I still don’t know what to [00:35:00] make of this scene. Like I know what is happening. First of all, even if we didn’t know that this is like. I mean, it’s not a full snake hand, but it’s something weird and it’s disgusting.

Even if we didn’t know that, like she should know. Oh, just no, but, but she’s, she’s into it enough that they pull over in a barn, and I guess she’s pretty much okay with him now, except for they go to get back in the car and they’re driving away and she looks back and she’s like, where’s my birds? He’s like, I let him go and she reaches back into the cage and finds more of that weird goo.

Todd: Yep. She thinks the snake is in there with them, but at that exact moment they get pulled over by a cop. Yeah. Was he swerving or something? I was trying to sort out why he got pulled over. I think he was speeding. I think he was speeding. Okay. And then And the cop. Okay. So then they’re pulled over by these two cops and the sheriff [00:36:00] who’s got his nose bandaged for that was a nice, that was kind of an interesting touch.

He’s played by Boose Vincent, and we’ve seen him before. He was in Primal, he was the Mad Doctor in Primal Rage, just the same year that this came out. Oh, that’s funny. He did look familiar to me. Oh yeah. He was always playing these characters in these movies. You know, he was in Kill Bill and in Glorious Bastards.

He’s got a resume a mile long and it’s always, he’s the tough sheriff or he’s the tough army guy, or he is the drill sergeant or something like that. He was all over television and movies, mostly in the seventies and eighties and coming up into now, I mean he even, his last thing was. On TV in 2024. So it’s got a long career.

But, uh, he was good. I liked his performance in this too. I, I think it came across as genuine and I was actually a little surprised at how well this scene came off because it escalates and I think a very real way, taking into account that this sheriff is just kind of a dick. He [00:37:00] thinks that he’s on drugs.

He wants to see under the bandage. Clark refuses to take the bandage off. She’s like, why don’t you just take the bandage off for him? And he is like, no. So then he like tries to get him out of the car and then gets him to open up the back and all this stuff. Eventually he is just like, yeah, this is drugs and if you’re not gonna cooperate with me, I’m gonna take you away.

So he, he cuffs him and he’s gonna take him away given the fact that this guy’s maybe a little too dickish. Now we know that’s not, well, we know that that’s just not uncommon. But I thought the scene unfolded pretty realistically how, you know, he thinks this guy’s on drugs. Basically. He’s asking to see his bandage.

I’m not sure why. Maybe he thinks that like he was shooting himself up there or something. He’s gonna see track marks. I have no idea. She’s like, show him the bandage. He’s like, no. And so, you know, they go back and he wants to see in the trunk and he finds a rifle and he confiscates the rifle and basically he’s just got enough probable cause to take him to the station.

So he cuffs him up, I guess. I guess. I mean, he’s being an asshole, but True. What, I guess what I’m [00:38:00] trying to say is I’ve seen movies where this is just handled really sloppily. Like they gotta get the the main guy to the police station for something. Yeah. He used to have a cop for some dumb reason and pulls him over and for some dumb reason, takes him away.

This I felt was at least. It was a scene and it felt real. Yeah, I, yeah, I’ve certainly seen far more egregious infractions by law enforcement. Anyway. Take his gun. They, yeah. Okay. So they leave her there, but she doesn’t have the keys to the car. He, so Clark is in the back, so Clark is in the back of the cop car and he’s sick and he’s getting progressively sicker.

Craig: Now at this point, I would understand why they would think that he was. Either on narcotics or in withdrawal ’cause. ’cause that is kinda what it looks like at this point. The sheriff gets out to take a pee on the side of the road and the deputy, for reasons that I don’t understand, goes back to the back seat and takes Clark’s handcuffs off.

I don’t know why [00:39:00] I, I guess just because I have no idea. Clark was sick and I think at this point he was kind of seizing and like foam was coming out of his mouth. So I don’t know. Maybe he was being merciful, but it’s a mistake because Clark’s now. Pretty much obvious snake arm shoots out and goes down the guy’s throat and pulls out his still beating heart.

Yeah. Was that what that was? That wasn’t just like his tongue and stuff. I thought it was his, I thought it was his heart and that it was still beating, which is kinda silly, but I liked it. I think you’re right. I think that’s what it was. It was silly, but uh, it was gross and it was kind of cool and over the top.

Todd: And I don’t mind that at all. Not in this movie. Yeah. And then I think the, the, um, sheriff walks back to the car, but we don’t see what happens. I, I just assume that Clark killed him, but he didn’t. ’cause he comes back later. So I am not really sure. Clark snuck [00:40:00] away before the sheriff got back or what happened, but he walks back to where Lisa is and she’s still there.

Craig: Yeah. Well, I mean, where’s she gonna go? She’s asleep. Yeah, she’s asleep in the car. It’s now early morning. He’s in really bad shape, but he still doesn’t wanna go to the hospital, but she takes him anyway to, to another hospital that doesn’t believe in turning the lights on. And, and to another hospital where the only person that he deals with is a sexy lady doctor, who is apparently the only one who is attending to him.

Todd: And he’s the only one who needs attending to Well, and like she’s kind to him and, and she tries to calm him. And she says she’s gonna give him a sedative. And she does. And then she takes off the bandages, which by the, where did he get those bandages? Like I know right. He, the last we thing we saw, he wrapped his hands in toilet paper at the bar.

Craig: Anyway, she cuts off his professionally bandaged bandages and it’s [00:41:00] disgusting and it looks like gangrene, but it also looks like his fingers are fusing together. Yes. Meanwhile, at the same time, Harry shows up at the hospital and then we get her the, the lady doctor. Dictating into a tape recorder. Her scientific findings?

Yes. And they didn’t even write them down because it was so scientific, and I’m like, that sounds legit, but I don’t know. Within minutes, this woman has figured out everything that’s going on down to the DNA level. There was some neurotoxin from the snake bite that allowed the patient’s T-cells to accept foreign DNA, which then infected him and started replicating and it suppressed the, the rejection of the body.

Todd: I’m like, you’ve seen this guy for maybe 10 minutes and you heard from his girlfriend, he had a snake bite and you took a look at his hand. What did you possibly do? What kind of lab do you have there that you were able to figure all this shit out and, and you’re just a [00:42:00] doctor. I don’t even think she’s drawn blood at this time.

Well, like you’re just a doctor. You’re not like a scientist, like a DNA specialist or some shit. I don’t know. And it looks like they have taken. X-rays of his hand and it looks like a snake. I don’t get it. It’s like his whole arm’s a snake. It’s like his arm has the snake backbone and everything. She does mention, I don’t know if you caught it, and I have no idea how she would know this, but she says that an antidote had been administered but had had no effect, either positive or negative.

Craig: So what Harry did. Had no impact on what is happening. This would’ve happened regardless. But Harry doesn’t know that anyway. The doctor tries to take a blood sample, but an eye opens on the snake hand. How does she not see that? I know, right? So weird. A freaking eye opens and is [00:43:00] looking all around. It’s a cool eye too.

Yeah. It, it, it, I like all these effects. They’re practical and they’re slimy and, you know, it’s a lot of close up so you don’t, you know, see a big picture, but it’s, it’s yucky and, uh, I don’t really like it. And she does, she takes a blood sample, but it’s like, then she like is pushing out the air or whatever, and like a little bit of liquid comes out of the top and it’s clear.

I don’t even understand what’s happening at this point. But the, uh, the snake hand attacks her and rips the bottom part of her face off. Yeah, it’s another mouth attack. You know, it’s a little. I Maybe also it, yeah, it’s just a little phallic, all this that’s kind of happening. I thought it lingered awful long on this big thing.

Todd: Sticking out of her mouth as she’s, yeah. Anyway, I. It does rip her, her jaw off. And the snake also makes weird noises, by the way, just because we haven’t mentioned it yet. It’s kind of funny. Clark gets angry and he, and he tries to stab it. I, I think he is this, when he [00:44:00] goes off to a bathroom, he cuts it off.

Yeah, he ends up cutting it off. And that was awesome. That was really awesome actually. The cutoff, the cutoff bit again, just the effects were really fun. When that snake head flops into a sink and we just see it opening and closing and the tongue sticking out and all that stuff, so you would almost think that this has been fixed because he cut the head off the snake.

Like a hydra. It comes back even worse. Harry, by the way, has come into the hospital now and he, before Clark cuts this off and before he runs out to do that, Harry Confronts Clark initially very happily, oh yeah, I’m, I’m here. Can I get you to sign this form and I’m gonna give you the right antidote and all that stuff.

And then when he almost trips over the nurse’s body, he kind of freaks out and we get a POV shot, I think from Harry’s perspective. I mean from Clark’s perspective, as Harry’s backing up and trying to talk his way out of this, and again, just like this sort of comical scene and I thought that Harry bit it me too.

He collapses and he kind of makes a [00:45:00] moaning sound and then it cuts away to Clark as he, as he goes into another bathroom and cuts his handle. Well, he hasn’t done that yet. He, he leaves the hospital first and gets chased down by. His girlfriend, who again is left without a vehicle and then he goes to the gas station and he cuts his hand off like it tries to fight back, but he’s able to chop it off and Lisa shows up with that jerk cop, like I guess they’re kind of working together now.

Craig: Your friends again? Yeah. And then some weird, okay, so Clark. Sees them there, so he knows that they’re after him and he sneaks into a pickup truck and the cab of a pickup truck and some weird Swedish. Yeah, I thought Amish for second. Yeah. I don’t know that I, and maybe Amish, I don’t know. They talk like this.

Todd: I dig. It’s Swedish and he gets in the car and he’s like, he’s like, it’s not for me to ask what you did wrong. It’s just for [00:46:00] me to offer help. So I offer my help, and he drives him out of there. Lisa sees but doesn’t say anything. So she clearly doesn’t find, she doesn’t trust the cop either, but she’s, you know, she’s concerned and she’s trying to find him too.

Craig: Again, why they’ve only known people for two or known each other for two weeks. Let it go, sister. Cut your losses. Yeah, let the police deal with this. Things have gotten weird enough. It’s, it’s time to go find another guy who doesn’t have a snake arm. And how she manages to track him down. I have no idea. I have no idea.

She drives around in the rain until she just finds the house that he’s at. It makes no sense. This couple man, they’re, they’ve got a little daughter. Everything is just so, it’s just so like traditional. This was the most bizarre scene of the movie to me. Yeah. Like it was really weird where all of a sudden thrown into this very strange.

Dynamic where they’ve taken in this guy and she’s like, I wanna see him. I need to take him to the hospital. And they’re like, [00:47:00] no, we don’t believe in the hospital. God will heal him. And like, what? Like what are you talking about? This is insane. And the little girl is like, I wanna see his hand. Okay. Yep. She goes upstairs and talks to him and he says, it’s okay now.

’cause I cut it off. I, I didn’t have any control of it. And she’s like, it’s okay. It wasn’t you who did all the these things. It’s not your fault. We’ll go to the cops, we’ll explain. They’ll understand. Okay. Sure. That sounds perfectly reasonable. Oh God. So she falls asleep next to him. What? Yes. What is the deal with this hand?

Like, would you fall asleep next to this guy? No, with his hand right there. Like what? What is going on? Why is she still with him? Why is she so comfortable around him? Why is she on his side? He clearly doesn’t want the help. He is turning her down at every turn. So it, it got a little [00:48:00] silly, I thought. But anyway, she’s there and this girl as religious as her family is decide, you know, still thinks that it’s okay for her to have toy swords.

Todd: And so she wakes up in the middle of the night and decides to go upstairs and see the head. She pokes and prods at the bandages. Oh, I was so hoping this girl was gonna get it. Yeah. I was so hoping this girl was gonna get it. Sometimes these Italian movies, man, they go in those these fun directions that American movies won’t.

But no, she doesn’t get it. But she does unleash the snake hand. Yeah, she does. And it’s Uzi. And now the snake head is like even more pronounced than before. Like it’s a legit snake head. Awesome. And everybody screams. Uh, Clark screams, Lisa screams. Little girl screams. Everybody screams. The dad comes upstairs with a shotgun.

Craig: So stupid. But I still think it’s, I still like it. For whatever reason, I, I don’t know why the snake shoots its tongue out. Freddy Krueger style and wraps it around the Swedes neck [00:49:00] and. Then he falls in on the wall and hits his head and like there’s blood everywhere. And then the snake shoots goo in the mom’s face.

And while the little girl is in the background watching and crying, and I just have in my notes, yeah, it’s your fault. Like if you been so nosy, you wouldn’t have had to watch your parents get killed by a mutant snake hand. And you’re gonna have to live with that for the rest of your life. Yeah. And Lisa finally tries to get away in the car, but Clark Slithers onto the top of the car, which was a shot that I actually really liked.

Todd: Oh yeah. I thought it looks real. I mean, and I say that loosely, but. It looks kind of like his body slithers up onto the top of the car. Oh yeah, that does. And then he is on top of the car and he comes down over the windshield and he has like a snake tongue that comes through the vent in the car and is messing with her.

Craig: And he’s hopping right her hand. And he’s transforming on the windshield, and it’s this [00:50:00] gross eighties practical transformation. It’s slimy and his face is getting all distorted and his eyeballs fall out and land on the glass and slide down the glass. I thought this looked really from this point on.

It’s, it’s a lot of fun and it’s crazy. Oh yeah. From here, it’s just all special effects and it’s so much fun. I love the eyeball and they make, and still, still, they insist on making this so poetic. Like these shots, when the eyeball pops out of his head and start, it slides slowly down this windshield.

Todd: Yeah. We get this extreme closeup in it with all the juiciness and the bubbles in there. As it kind of sli slowly slide, it’s like the movie kind of stops every few moments to be like. Isn’t this cool though? Yeah. Oh my gosh. And there’s so much Ky in these scenes. It’s insane. Like these, these big globs of like sacky ky fall out of his mouth and like snake starts crawling out of the sacks and she, she crashes the Jeep and [00:51:00] she, uh, somehow gets herself, her body trapped in this deep.

Craig: Mud ditch. It’s like a trench, I’m not sure what it is, but a construction site or something. And she’s in this big trench and she can’t get out. She’s, you know, slithering through the mud and she goes through a standpipe and the, the snakes are chasing her through there. And then. Clark is crawling towards her through there, and then she falls out of the pipe into a mud pit and he leans out over the mud pit and barfs snakes all over, like first a bunch of little ones and then a couple big, huge ones slither out of his mouth.

And these definitely are real snakes. Oh yeah. Where all these snakes come from. I have no idea. There’s like a, from inside him, I guess. I don’t, yeah, but where were they? Where were they Inside of him, like the, there are more snakes. He’s just all full of snakes and they’re huge. They are huge. What did you say?

I said he’s just all full of snakes. Like his whole body’s just all [00:52:00] full of snakes and they just didn’t know it. It’s just snakes. He’s just, he’s been, he’s been dead for a long time and it’s just, he’s just a been big snake puppet this whole time. I think so. And then he, like, he slithers towards her and she impales him on a pole.

And then he’s like all pathetic, like, he’s like, uh, and. She reaches out to him and he reaches out to her, but then his head splits at the jaw, like the upper half of his head just splits back. That was so cool. Oh man. It looked great. And then it cuts away and I’m like, don’t cut away from this. I know. I know.

Todd: But it comes back. But eventually a giant mutant bone snake, so weird looking bone snake like comes out, you know, like of his head. And uh, Dickson Harry show up and the cop throws her a rope and is trying to pull her out. But the big bone snake is following her. And then right at the last second the snake pops [00:53:00] up and Harry I guess, grabs one of the cops rifles.

Craig: Disarms a police officer apparently. Um, and, and shoots the snake and its head blows off and he’s standing there with flow, like they’re just there together at the pit with the police and all the police are standing around and they pull Lisa out and they wrap her in a blanket and they sit around the car and she looks towards the camera.

The end like, might as well, it’s over. Well, it’s over. Yeah, their relationship is over. Worst boyfriend ever, she’s gonna be telling this story for a long time to come. I say the craziest weekend, and it ends with her boyfriend’s head opening up like a Pez dispenser. I, I thought just when the effects couldn’t get any, any more fun that happened and I was all in on it.

Todd: I was all in on it. I mean, it’s a very simple story, but it’s pretty well shot. It’s pretty [00:54:00] well acted. I thought it dragged at times, like I said before, and I don’t think I really pointed out when I thought it dragged, but about the 30 minute mark, I started to get a little impatient for something more significant to happen.

And when they were going through all this stuff in the bar and whatnot, I was just kinda like, all right, like, we get it, like, let’s move on. But, you know, I don’t know. I, I actually thought it was still pretty good. When I say pretty good, I mean. I don’t think my mom would enjoy this movie. I don’t think my dad would enjoy this movie.

Craig: No. But, uh, for a horror movie, it’s got enough to keep you entertained and the special effects payoffs all the way through it are enough reason to watch it. It’s fun. And to see all these, all these cool actors like Jack still just likes, I just like seeing Jamie Farr and whatever he’s in, he. He’s just a fun old chap.

Yeah. And I, I like watching him. Yeah. I actually quite liked it. Uh, and I think that some of our friends, some of our podcast friends would really like it if you’re into, and I don’t think, I don’t know. I mean, I saw it when I was young, so if you’re our age, maybe you did too. Maybe you picked it up [00:55:00] at the video store.

But I don’t think that it’s widely seen. No, God no. As far as I can tell, it’s not streaming anywhere other than all over YouTube. Like, yeah, there. There are multi a dozen posts of it in its entirety on YouTube, and I would say if you haven’t seen it and you’re a fan of eighties horror and you’re a fan of practical effects, I actually think you’ll really like it.

I really liked it. I agree with you that it drags in the middle, but I think that the beginning and the end. Are both really good and worth watching. It was a good choice. Thank you, Craig. Well, if you enjoyed this podcast and you’ve seen this movie, especially reach out to us. We’d love to hear about it. Uh, you can find us online, chainsaw horror.com, or you can just search two guys in a Chainsaw podcast and find us all over.

Todd: You can also find our patriot at patriot.com/chainsaw podcast, where for just five bucks a month, you can get access. To the complete unedited phone calls that I use to put these podcasts together. All the personal stuff we talk about before and after, and all the little things that I cut out in the middle.

We also have Mini SOS that we put up and uh, we also have a really cool book club where we’re reading horror books and, uh, getting together by video to discuss them. If that sounds appealing to you, just go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast and sign up and join the family. It’s a lot of fun. Until next time, I’m Todd.

And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

We’re finally covering William Lustig’s 1980 cult horror film Maniac – a gritty, guerrilla-shot New York character study starring Joe Spinell as Frank Zito, a troubled serial killer who scalps women and attaches their hair to mannequins while spiraling through hallucinations tied to his abusive mother.

We discuss the film’s reputation, slow pacing, and artistic filmmaking on a low budget, compare it to movies like Christmas Evil, Martin, Tourist Trap, and Basket Case, and highlight Spinell’s understated performance and surprising career background. They also focus on Tom Savini’s makeup work and notorious gore set pieces, including Savini’s own shotgun head-shot death, the film’s abrupt hallucinatory turns, and its ambiguous ending.

Ep 472, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys And a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, here we are with our second episode of the New Year, our first episode of the year. That is not holiday themes. I proposed this to Craig because this is a movie that I think we were just bound to do eventually.

It’s been on the list forever. There’s been a remake of it that I’m very curious about, and so I imposed this upon him. This is 1980’s Maniac. Directed by William Lustig, and this is a notorious film for horror fans. It’s, it’s a bit of a cult classic. 

Craig: There was no other inspiration, like it was [00:01:00] just something that had been in the back of your mind for a long time and you just decided now.

Yeah, like when you texted me, you’re like, I’m pretty, I don’t think we’ve ever done this. We should do it. And I was like, okay. That was it.

I mean, I, I agree with you. You’re right. It is, uh, notorious isn’t the right word, really, but it is a, a movie that. Big time horror fans are familiar with, and I was actually a little surprised that we hadn’t done it yet. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I kind of assumed we had, 

Todd: I know we’re getting to that point now, aren’t we? Where we’re over 10 years into this.

Mm-hmm. And we forget, I think on a previous episode, we went for a while without realizing we had referenced a movie that we had already done. And I think they’re, 

Craig: I can’t remember. 

Todd: There’s certainly been times when we’ve proposed movies that we had to go back and check the catalog and make sure we hadn’t already done them.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: But we’re also old men and our minds are going so that’s part of as well. True. No, I, I mean, I was looking for some films because I’m still a bit on vacation. You are too. [00:02:00] I was looking for some films that we could access pretty quickly and easily. Yeah. Without any trouble. This is a widely available, you can get it.

On Tuby for free. And also I thought it would be good to go with something classic, because we’ve been doing some modern ones lately. 

Craig: True. 

Todd: And we need to maybe get back to doing some of those older more. I mean, you don’t think it’s notorious. What do you mean by that? 

Craig: Well, I, I feel like Notorious, uh, has kind of negative connotations and I don’t think that there’s anything necessarily negative to say about this movie.

I don’t know it. It’s about a guy that kills beautiful women, but it’s not particularly scandalous or nasty. I mean, it’s kind of nasty, I guess, with some of the gore and some of the kills, but, 

Todd: well. 

Craig: I don’t know. 

Todd: I guess maybe we have different definitions of Notorious. I think it could go both ways. I, I wasn’t meaning to imply that this film is like particularly nasty.

I mean, obviously in this era, 1980, this was one of those movies that, for example, in Great Britain had some resistance to getting, I don’t even think it, it got released in the theaters in Britain. [00:03:00] Due to censorship, and it was one of those, well, actually maybe it was released in the theater, but it was banned for video later.

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: As one of those video nasties, 

Craig: it’s gritty and I like that about it. I think that that’s one of the more appealing things about it, is that it is gritty, and I very much enjoy these movies that. Set specifically in New York City, but yes, it doesn’t really matter. Just, just different cities in in this time period because they were so different.

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: New York, especially when it’s portrayed in these movies in the seventies and eighties, feels scary, right? Every movie, New York, I think it’s not necessarily a place that you would wanna hang out in, it’s, it’s, it’s dirty and gritty, but. Cinematically. I really enjoy that. Yeah. It’s, it’s a, a fun.

Environment and time period to visit. 

Todd: I think very specifically, very early in our podcasting career, we did basket case and I just [00:04:00] remember, 

Craig: yeah, yeah. 

Todd: One of the massive appeals of that movie was that it was a gritty movie set in a version of New York City that doesn’t exist anymore, and it just so much fun to kind of see that and see it in all its dirtiness.

Craig: Well, yeah. And, and this movie, like that movie filmed kind of kamikaze style in that they didn’t always have permits to film wherever they were. So they would film real quick and then run away. 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. And, 

Craig: and I love that. 

Todd: I love that too. It’s, and it comes through right in. Film, obviously, and it’s also directed by William Lustig.

This was his first guess you could say, mainstream film. I mean, I don’t think this, I mean this movie was released at theaters, but it obviously didn’t have a very mainstream audience. But, uh, he was a porn director before this. He did a couple porn movies and so, yeah, I mean, all of it, it just feels like a little bit seedy and a little dirty, which is fun.

But, you know, we’ve got the involvement of, uh, Joe [00:05:00] Spinel. This is one of his earlier films, and he has. Had gone on to from this to do lots of stuff in mainstream 

Craig: film. I wanted to say something about him because I have seen this movie at least once before and watching it again, it is kind of gritty and he’s such an unlikely.

Protagonist. Right? Because he is not a good looking guy. 

Todd: No, 

Craig: I’m I, I’m sorry. I, I mean, I don’t mean to be superficial, but he’s not, he’s heavier set like I, I, I can’t even really give him. Like face. Yeah, like, like normally you could say, but he’s got a handsome face. No. Like this is not, he’s not a good looking guy.

Todd: No. 

Craig: And he plays this kind of skeevy guy. And I had seen this movie at least once before, but I had never looked him up before and I looked him up and I was so impressed. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: Like he is a serious. Dude, he’s been in Shakespeare companies. He’s [00:06:00] been in like two or three Academy Award-winning films. He was in at least a couple of the godfathers.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: he was well liked and well respected by some huge names in the industry. Some big directors, 

Todd: close friends. 

Craig: Yeah. He was great friends with Sylvester Stallone, who I’m not very impressed with right now. But he has so many connections in the industry and has. Done so much. I was so impressed. So Joe Spinel, I, I’m sure you’re listening.

I apologize for commenting on your looks. I am super, super impressed with your resume. Damn. 

Todd: Well 

Craig: that’s, that’s impressive. 

Todd: I mean, you know, it just reminds us that, uh, acting needs all kinds of faces, right? If you know, yeah. You need big people and small people and, and, and conventionally unattractive people and all these roles need to be played.

And there are guys, I think like Joe Spinel, who do, because of their look, you know, get cast into some of these roles. It [00:07:00] does make for a little bit of an incongruousness with, there’s a part in this movie where he begins a bit of. I don’t know. He goes on some dates with this absolutely gorgeous woman and you do kind of do a bit of a double take thinking, would she be interested in this guy?

But to be fair, love works in mysterious ways and that you know people. 

Craig: Yeah. And to be, to be fair, very few of us. And certainly not me look like movie stars. 

Todd: Exactly. Who are we to talk about someone else’s look, 

Craig: right? Like, yeah, like, like I, I’m sure that there would be some people out there saying, Ugh, how could anybody fall in love with that guy if they saw a picture of me?

And it happens, 

Todd: right? Well,

well, it works out well for him in this, in this film. I think he’s well cast as this guy. Maybe a little too well cast. The remake of this stars a very attractive Elijah Wood [00:08:00] and 

Craig: Elijah Wood. That’s so wild. Joe Spinel is like a middle aged starting. To maybe go bald, heavy set, 

Todd: cock marked face, clearly had 

Craig: acne cock marked face.

Yeah. Like not, and, and, and I wouldn’t say a big guy. I mean, maybe a little bit bigger than me, but not by a lot. I mean, heavier set. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Guy. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And then Elijah Wood is this tiny little pixie person. Like I, I haven’t seen the remake. I, I am. Intrigued by it because just the contrast between. Those two men is 

Todd: Oh, yeah.

Craig: Shocking. 

Todd: When I heard that Elijah Wood had starred in a remake of this film, two thoughts went through my mind. Well, I was like, it’s either one of two things. Either they have really redone. The whole concept of this movie for the remake, [00:09:00] or Elijah Wood is trying very, very hard to like show his range and get out of that pretty boy beautiful face looking image that he had, you know, from The Hobbit and all that stuff.

Craig: I think that Elijah Wood is very interested in. I, I think that he’s an artist. Uh, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: I, I think that he thinks of acting as an art and he likes to challenge himself. He’s done lots of very interesting things. He’s done big time, mainstream stuff. But if you look at his. Resume. He’s also done lots of smaller indie, strange, and, uh, interesting things.

Yeah, he’s a cool guy. But yeah, I mean, it’s a stark contrast. I can’t, I, I think that I also, and, and I may be mistaken, I didn’t research this, so forgive me if I’m mistaken, but I think that the remake is shot entirely from his POV 

Todd: Oh. 

Craig: Like the whole movie is. [00:10:00] Killer, POV. 

Todd: Interesting. 

Craig: And so I don’t think that you actually see Elijah Wood that often.

I’m gonna stop talking because I may be misspeaking. Well, that, that, that, that was my understanding. 

Todd: If that’s true, that would’ve been a pretty easy paycheck for him. What, like a mirror shot every now and then Elijah wood space pops into the frame. Oh, God 

Craig: no. I did, but I did read a little bit about this.

I think. I think that I read that though. He wasn’t really in it that often. Always on set. 

Todd: Ah. 

Craig: Because he always wanted to see how things were being done. 

Todd: Wow. Interesting. 

Craig: He’s a cool guy. I, I have a lot of respect for Elijah Wood. He’s a cool guy. 

Todd: Yeah. And speaking of cool guys, I think William Lustig would be an interesting character to interview and I wish I had looked up a couple interviews with him because this is a guy who has kind of forged his own path.

And hasn’t done a ton, but he’s primarily worked in the horror industry. And as I said before, he came up through porn, sort of. Mm-hmm. I [00:11:00] mean, and that was not unusual for this time. I mean, freaking not at 

Craig: all. 

Todd: Our, one of our favorite directors, Wes Craven, even Ivan Wrightman did a saucy movie in Canada. I like, this was the time for that.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, it, it sounds so salacious. You know, just the word porn, you know, it, it sounds scandalous, but it’s filmmaking. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And it’s, you know, if, if you’re a young filmmaker and you need to work, you work and it’s not as though you’re not developing skills. Right. It’s, it’s not an. Illegitimate industry.

It’s an industry. It’s work. 

Todd: I mean, and it has to be said, especially at this time when those kinds of movies had much better production value. 

Craig: Absolutely. 

Todd: They weren’t just a guy running around with a camcorder. I mean, you had to have cinematographers and property lighting an 

Craig: iPhone, right? 

Todd: Yeah. I mean, for sure.

And so to be fair, like actually was an apprentice editor on Death Wish in 1974. I mean, he did. Other stuff even before he did porn. That was just an easy way for him to [00:12:00] get. And he did two movies as far as we know, two or three movies like that. And he was even, um, a production manager and co-producer and producer and on some Italian films with one of our favorite directors there, ar argento.

Tenere Inferno. We haven’t done Inferno yet. We did Tenere. So, I mean, he’s, he was around doing a lot of different things besides that, but he did with this film in particular, really set, I think a foothold in the, in the horror industry. And then we’ve done two other films by him. Mm-hmm. We did, uh, uncle Sam, which was a blast.

Yeah. Which is one of his more recent ones. 

Craig: I loved it. 

Todd: It was fun, like a, like a modern day gorilla style film. I mean, you know, the film didn’t have huge production value, but it had a lot of, uh, entertainment value. 

Craig: It was dumb, but I, I thought it was great. 

Todd: Yeah. But I think probably Maniac Cop is the one that gave him the most success because that has had some sequels.

It’s been played a lot. Have we done that? We did. We did the original Maniac Cop. Yep. It’s a silly movie, but God that got so much airplay on cable and 

Craig: [00:13:00] mm-hmm. 

Todd: Did really well on video and spawned a couple sequels and was talk in talks for doing a series for a while. I don’t think it’s, oh, that’s 

Craig: funny. 

Todd: I don’t think anything’s come of that yet, but who knows?

Something might. At some point. So I think he’s an interesting guy. He’s definitely got an eye for this. And I, you know, one of the things I’ll say about this movie is you could completely trash it as garbage. Like for example, gene Cisco did when he reviewed it. I think he famously said that he walked out after 20 minutes in.

But he was also that kind of guy. This guy didn’t really have a soft spot for horror at all. 

Craig: Nerd. 

Todd: Yeah. Are you saying I’m a nerd or are you saying Gene Sis? 

Craig: No, he Gene Sis. Oh yeah. For, he was the skinny one, right? 

Todd: Yeah. Nerd. Yeah, 

Craig: total nerd. 

Todd: Nerd. But um, honestly, this movie’s got some art to it, and as we were watching this, and it’s definitely a character study kind of movie, so it takes its time with the pacing.

It’s really in this guy’s face for the whole time. It’s slow, but I don’t think ever uninteresting, [00:14:00] I was getting vibes of. Christmas Evil. The one with the guy who, again, had the traumatic childhood and went around dressed as Santa. 

Craig: Oh, 

Todd: that one. And we thought this was just gonna be a dumb movie, but it, yeah.

Right. Which of the 

Craig: fuck, Christmas Evil? I think you’re, I think you’re right. I think it was, and then he flies away in his van at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one you’re talking about. 

Todd: Yeah. What a good movie. I, 

Craig: that was a good one. 

Todd: I’ve gone back and watched that during the holiday season. That was a good one.

Yeah. And that was also, well, it had flavors like this. I, it wasn’t quite as gritty, but it, it all took place in the city and, and it was this like serial killer, but whereas that guy had this. Had kind of an odder more complex, he had a bit of more heart to him, I suppose. Like you could really sympathize with him more.

This guy’s like the down and dirty version of that who has been much more damaged and much more traumatized and is a lot less sympathetic in a way, I would suppose. But I just felt like the two films, they occupied a similar space in my head. I don’t know if 

Craig: that, yeah, I [00:15:00] can see that. 

Todd: You know, 

Craig: this movie esp, you know, like I said, I’ve seen it before.

I don’t remember the last time I saw it at college sometime, probably. There are definitely a hundred percent great things that I wanna talk about. I wanna talk about the fact that Tom Savini is in it and did all the makeup and effects. 

Todd: Oh God. 

Craig: Which are great. I wanna talk about that. We already kind of talked about, you know.

Gritty. Early eighties, New York. Love that. This is one of those movies that I can appreciate on an artistic level, and I do think that there’s artistry. Yeah. I think that this is a good film. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And a film that aspiring filmmakers should watch to see what you can do with next to nothing. I, I, I am impressed with it in that way.

I did find it a little boring. And slow. 

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: And I think that it depends on circumstance and, and so often I’m not watching these movies in the greatest of circumstances, 

Uhhuh, 

Craig: it’s almost like, I [00:16:00] hate to say this, but it’s almost like homework. You know? Gotta do my homework, gotta watch this movie 

Todd: again.

That you’ve already seen. Uh, 

Craig: yeah. Yeah. And right. There’s so many things that I genuinely enjoyed about it, but I wouldn’t go up to somebody and say, oh, you gotta see this. It’s so fun 

Todd: right 

Craig: now. 

Todd: Well, to be fair, it’s not meant to be fun, is it? You know? No. 

Craig: It’s 

Todd: one of those 

Craig: films. I don’t think so. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But it’s good.

I do, I do appreciate it. I don’t want, like, I don’t wanna make it sound like I don’t, because I genuine, I I did appreciate it and there’s a lot of good stuff I think that Joe Spinel has to carry this whole goddamn movie on his back. Yeah. I think he does a great job, and not only do I think he does a great job, I think that he does something that’s very challenging and that he’s.

Fairly understated. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: It’s not like he, he’s not a Jack Nicholson. He’s not some big, crazy guy. He’s a [00:17:00] normal, crazy guy. 

Todd: He’s a believable, crazy guy. Right. I think, and we’ve talked about this recently with some other films about how. I think in the brood as well. I, I think when we were doing that, I was talking about the, the crazy actress’s performance and I said how I felt like she did it justice in that we see so many of these particularly low budget movies that are out there to make a buck with amateur actors that are going for full on exploitation or just trying to get something out the door.

You know, these actors play crazy like. Cartoon crazy. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And you could try to do that and make this movie bigger, I suppose, in your mind, if you’re, you know, directing by doing that. And by not doing that, and by being understated, it’s definitely much more unsettling. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Seems more real. And then when it’s combined with the gorilla.

Filmmaking in this gritty atmosphere mm-hmm. In these very ordinary situations with very ordinary looking people except for, you know, the [00:18:00] gorgeous photographer. The 

Craig: women, 

Todd: almost by requirement, and all of these movies are gonna be not ordinary looking at all. You know, it, it really works. And it comes, I think that alone makes you kind of sit up and pay attention to this movie a little bit more.

And, uh, but, but that it also has the. Side effect of maybe making it a little boring. You know, like it’s a day in the life of this guy who’s troubled and it’s, and it’s 

Craig: not boring. It’s not like nothing happens. I mean, he is a killer and he kills a bunch of people, so it’s not like nothing happens. I wasn’t terribly bored.

It was just, I don’t know, 

Todd: from time to time. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: I get it. 

Craig: But I mean, okay, it’s 

Todd: character study. 

Craig: I don’t know how, I don’t know. It is, it does feel more like a character study, which is why it’s difficult to get into the plot because we could just say it’s about this. Serial killer guy who goes around and kills beautiful women.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: he’s infatuated with beautiful women. I actually think that having him be a non [00:19:00] stereotypical, I, I think the fact that he isn’t a gorgeous person makes his character more interesting. I also think that he does a great job because. Spinelli or Spinel, excuse me, the actor, when he’s by himself, he’s crazy and he’s constantly talking to himself and talking to people who aren’t there and, and.

He’s very effective in doing that. But when he’s around these beautiful women, he’s charming, I believe a hundred percent, that he could charm these beautiful women. 

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: Like he, he has confidence and he speaks to them with charisma and ease, and I a hundred percent believe that these beautiful women.

Would be charmed by him. 

Todd: Well, and he charms the photographer, not by just, Hey, I’m, look at me. I mean, they have a common interest, right? Right. He’s an artist. She’s an artist and so he’s, you know, he’s speaking her language and he’s fawning over her [00:20:00] work and things like that. And so, you know, that alone is another level of attraction that can sometimes initial looks and things like that.

Craig: Right, 

Todd: and you’re right about that. I think that, like you said, he is. Fine when he is out in public with people. Mm-hmm. And that totally tracks, I mean, I don’t know if you recently saw the Dahmer stuff on. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: You know, that’s been popular this last year and Jeffrey Dahmer was apparently a very charming guy.

Bringing people back to his apartment and then when he was in his element, you know, he’s this brutal killer who’s eating people. Mm-hmm. I mean, this is, this tracks with normal human psychology. There can ease, there can be people like this. We know of people like this. I think this was based on Ed Geen a little bit.

This was another one of those movies. Yeah. That was based on Ed Geen. A lot of movies claim to be based on Ed Geen and they seem to vary quite widely. Wildly. So 

Craig: I know I would say this one, I mean, uh, so when he does kill women, which he does prostitutes and other women that he encounters, he typically [00:21:00] scalps them and then staples their scalps to a mannequin in his apartment.

And he has multiple mannequins in his apartment and he has long scenes of monologue, I guess. Yes. It wouldn’t be fair to say dialogue because. The mannequins are not talking back to him, but he speaks to them at length and. It’s odd and at the same time trying my best to watch it with a critical eye. I’m like, this guy’s doing a hell of a job.

Like this is a hard job. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: To monologue, to mannequins realistically, and make me believe your lunatic headspace. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And. He does. 

Todd: He does. There was a moment, one of these earlier monologues when I didn’t realize his mouth was not moving. 

Craig: Oh, I didn’t either. 

Todd: We were actually getting his inner monologue and it was only about halfway through the scene that I noticed that as he was prepping this [00:22:00] body, I think it was the first one.

All this talk is actually coming out of his head, but then later it is. Yeah. Very much like he’s talking to his mannequins. There were a couple thoughts I had about this number one tourist trap. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Tourist trap came out just the year before this came out, so it’s hard to. No. If one influenced the other, well they could have both been in production at the same time.

Could just be a coincidence. But sure, this killer with the mannequins and whatnot is a big kind of element of tourist trap just done in a different way. But also he’s a collector and I really liked that tracks, you know, with what we know about. A lot about the serial killer personality is they collect things.

I mean, this guy collects the scalps, but then he’s bringing in a new mannequin. Every time he kills a new girl, he nails the scalp to their head. He sleeps with it for a while until he’s killed another one, and then it goes up. In the room and they’re all looking down on him, and the collecting part actually comes straight out because when he approaches this photographer, eventually he asks her, you know, what makes you shoot [00:23:00] these women the way you do?

And she’s all about, I want, I, I, I’m trying to make them beautiful and all that. And he says, no, I think you’re trying to preserve them. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: I think you are preserving them at a certain point in time the way you want them to be, and you’re able to. Keep them that way. And you know, in a sense that’s sort of what he’s doing with these men.

’cause he is collecting to, he’s preserving these women, but all of it is overshadowed by this. Clearly messed up relationship that he had with his mother that we only get fleeting ideas of what that was exactly like. 

Craig: Yeah, and I kind of like that about the movie too, is that there are suggestions of maybe why he is the way he is and why he’s doing the things he’s doing, but they are subtle suggestions.

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: We’re not given an exclusive backstory. To explain why he is the way he is or why he does the things that he does. And I actually kinda like that. Like he’s, he’s, he’s crazy. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Well, that’s it. That’s all you need to know. He talks to the [00:24:00] mannequins that he, one of the things, uh, uh, you might need to clarify this for me.

When he speaks to the mannequins, I got the suggestion that he was blaming them for his. Actions like he, he kept saying things like, you’ve gotta stop doing this. If you keep doing this, they’re gonna catch you. And you, am I mistaken? 

Todd: It’s hard to understand. I was confused and I think that’s a possible interpretation.

I do think maybe sometimes it bounced back and forth between him, him addressing himself maybe, and him addressing the women. And I also wondered if he was addressing his mother or his women as. A stand in for the mother. This whole thing was a puzzle to put together really, and that I liked about it.

Like you said, these little bits and pieces are doled out in small bits, but. What was he saying at any given time? Sometimes I was wondering if there was a consistency there, if he wasn’t monologuing to himself and [00:25:00] sometimes he’s monologuing to the, the women he is killed. Sometimes he’s monologuing to his mother.

I didn’t really get a good, clear sense of that. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, gosh, you know, early in the movie, one of the. When he’s just in his apartment alone with, I think there’s only one mannequin initially, and then he keeps adding them. But he says, please, they’ll take you away from me. You have to be careful. We can’t live like this.

I get so scared that they’ll take you away. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: It’s, 

Todd: I, 

Craig: I 

Todd: don’t think it’s his mother. I 

Craig: dunno. 

Todd: In retrospect, we get, and I can’t remember exactly how it gets doled out, but a lot of it is due to the things he says to the last woman. When he finally gets the photographer back to his place, and oddly enough, she’s the only one.

He doesn’t just kill straight outright, he actually brings her back. No, he ties her up in her own place, I think for no. 

Craig: She gets away. It’s 

Todd: the model. The 

Craig: last one gets away. 

Todd: Sorry, I’m talking about the model. 

Craig: The model. 

Todd: So 

Craig: yeah, 

Todd: he meets up with this [00:26:00] photographer because this photographer is taking pictures of him in the park.

He has some interaction with the little girl on a tricycle, which is always disturbing in a movie like this. 

Craig: This, I have to tell you that this really bothered me, and I don’t remember what the reason was, but for some reason Alan was watching just this part with me. Like I think he wasn’t feeling well, and so he didn’t want to.

Get up. And so like I was, I was watching it and he was watching it and okay, so he sees this woman in the park who takes a photograph of him. She’s not stalking him or anything, she’s just, 

Todd: yeah, 

Craig: taking photographs and he happens to be in frame. Then he goes over and subtly finds her address. On the tag of her camera case, and then he shows up to her house.

Yeah. And he knocks on the door and she’s like, who is it? And he is like, oh, I am Frank Zito. You took a picture of me in the. Park and she’s like, come in [00:27:00] and then, and then they just hang out like they’ve known each other. It was so strange, like she just invited this strange person into her house for no reason, and then they’re friends for the next 40 minutes.

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: it’s so bizarre. It was bizarre to me. 

Todd: I don’t think he gave an explanation as to how he found her apartment either. Did he like, he just like, 

Craig: how does he know where she lives? Yeah. Right. And why is she not freaked out about that? Like, I’m a stranger that you. Kind of sort of took a picture. It is not like she stopped him to take a portrait.

He just happens to be in frame. They had no interaction. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: and then he just shows up. You took a picture. Me. Okay, come in, let’s hang out like we’re friends. It was so strange. It was a 

Todd: different 

Craig: time. I guess 

Todd: maybe this is what made New York so gritty back then. 

Craig: Oh God. 

Todd: She brings him in and they strike up this friendship and it’s, again, it [00:28:00] mostly comes through his appreciation for her photography and because he himself is a, what did he, does he paint 

Craig: an artist?

Todd: Yeah, he’s an artist. So they have this sort of intelligent conversation about the nature of art, which I already kind of talked about, and they end up going on a date or two. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: He visits her studio and sees, gets introduced to one of the models at the studio as well. She’s a like a fashion photographer basically.

Craig: But yeah, she is. And he watches a whole shoot. And that whole, that model shoot was hilarious. Oh my God. It was so funny. So funny. Model in the middle. If you’re listening. Work bitch. That model in the middle was working. But before I forget, the other thing that Alan commented on, which I had noticed, but we watched so many of these movies that I don’t know, it just didn’t 

Todd: register 

Craig: necessarily, occur to me is that throughout [00:29:00] the entire movie, there is a.

Backing track of the guy, the main guy just breathing and grunting. 

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: Did you notice that? 

Todd: I wondered if that was my, a HVAC system here at the house? 

Craig: No, the whole, the whole movie. He’s just like heavy perv breathing of Wow.

I knew the whole movie, which I is a choice and they committed to it and I respect that. But Alan was like, oh my God, it’s driving me nuts. 

Todd: You think they got Elijah Wood heavy breathing and though it’s in the remake. That 

would 

Craig: be fun. Can’t imagine. Can’t imagine what a hobbit would sound like. Grunting through a whole movie.

Right. Okay. Right. So the photo shoot, and he, he sees the whole photo [00:30:00] shoot and he steals a bracelet as a. Way to insert himself into this girl’s life. But then again, like he just shows up at her apartment and he’s like, knock, knock. And she’s like, hello, who’s there? And he is like, oh, I’m that gross, creepy guy from the shoot.

And she’s like, okay, well I’ll open the door a centimeter. And he’s like, you dropped this. And she’s like, oh, thank you so much. And he does something. I missed exactly what it was, but he somehow riggs the door so that it can’t lock. 

Todd: Yeah, I, he presses a, but I guess the, you know, when you open the door kind of along the.

Where the things come out to lock it or whatever. There’s a button you can press so that it keeps it from being locked or something. I don’t know. I mean, I’m, I’m aware of these things, but that’s sort of old fashioned too. Yeah, he does that. And then I thought this scene was particularly effective. We’ve got this girl who comes in, I believe this was one of the porn [00:31:00] actresses that they got because.

Somebody knew somebody and they were fairly inexpensive and wanted to do something that wasn’t porn. 

Craig: She was gorgeous. 

Todd: She was gorgeous. Yeah. She, she came in and, and I liked that this was a one shot deal. The movie knows what it’s doing, and it’s very coy about it. And I liked this u unlike a lot of the, the exploitation films that we would see where people just get on with it, where it’s just like, take the top off boom boobs or whatever.

Mm-hmm. This movie’s actually pretty mm-hmm. Pretty good about like, you know, teasing us a little bit here and getting the anticipation up for the nudity. She does what I think it was when we did, um, we did another movie from this era, the massacre one, where the guy was going around the hotel and killing people.

What was it? Oh God, the name of it. The name of it is, I couldn’t 

Craig: tell you 

Todd: right on the tip of my tongue, the two boys who were friends and the one turns on him real suddenly and one of ’em was a real famous guy who was in Land of the Lost, 

Craig: couldn’t tell you. 

Todd: Alright. So anyway, I was talking about in that movie too, where this girl goes to turn on [00:32:00] the shower, right?

She takes her. She takes her clothes off and then puts on a robe in preparation for getting into the shower. Who does this? Was this ever a thing? You should probably just take your clothes off, get in the shower, and put on the robe afterwards. So E, 

Craig: she was drawing a bath. Todd, you weren’t paying enough.

Todd: She was, but okay. So you’re drawing a bath, taking a shower. Save difference. You put on a, you take your clothes 

Craig: off. It takes a minute. It takes a minute to draw the bath. 

Todd: Yeah, but just, oh my God. Alright, sorry. Whatever. Anyway, it adds to the sensuality of 

Craig: it. It’s so it, well it’s always so funny to me ’cause I’m watching this movie, these movies and the boobs come out and I’m like, oh, that’s nice for Todd.

Todd: It always is.

Craig: She was a very beautiful woman and she had lovely. Breasts. 

Todd: Yeah. But no, besides that, like it was shot really well, you know, it wasn’t just full on, it was like the legs and the, [00:33:00] the thing drops 

Craig: and, and it was brief. It wasn’t gratuitous. 

Todd: Not at all. 

Craig: She, she took her top off and you briefly saw her. Topless and then it moved on.

Like it didn’t linger. It wasn’t, 

Todd: yes. And 

Craig: yeah, it was nice. 

Todd: And unlike that other movie, which was the Toolbox murders I now remember, which also had a porn actress in a very similar role who drew a bath because that one we got full on her masturbating and all this like just like. Felt super porny. This didn’t, 

Craig: no, not at all.

Todd: I really was impressed by, you know, the, the, again, the artistry we were going for here, but also once she gets in the bath, it is a one shot of her sinking into the bath, starting to wash herself. And that camera, and this was, I don’t know if they would’ve used a steady camera here. I mean, the steady cam had just come into operation around this time, but, uh, they probably couldn’t afford it.

That camera slowly and very steadily, pulls out of the bathroom and down the hallway, and you were just waiting for [00:34:00] the killer to come into view. And he does. But what a great tense moment. Mm-hmm. With this I, I, I just thought it was a fantastic shot that I wouldn’t have expected in a movie like this. So, you know, they, he really did a great job.

Yeah, with trying to create some tension with this stuff. 

Craig: There is so many movies that we’ve done like this, specifically from this era, either the late seventies into the eighties where they were shot on such low budgets, but there was artistry to them. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: And I don’t want to sound like an old man and say like, they just don’t do ’em like they used to, but anybody with an iPhone can shoot a movie now.

Yeah. And, and, and of course, of course there are still skilled artists out there who are making films, but we’re so inundated with media. I, I don’t know that we necessarily even see them. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I, I don’t know that they get the attention that they deserve. And I, I would say that of this movie, yeah, it’s low [00:35:00] budget and gritty, but in an artistic way.

And that sounds so hoity toity to say no, but it’s true. Care was taken. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: In shooting this film, 

Todd: again, I’m gonna sound like an old man saying this, but I get really tired of going to movies and not feeling like they’re shot cinematically. You know, like, yeah. It’s just a bunch of bouncing around the camera’s just cutting left to right, close up far away.

Everything’s handheld, and, and that seems to be the default that low budget productions go to because it’s easy. And it also just happens to fit with the style of the time now, but like you look back on these and they feel more cinematic even though they’re low budget. 

Craig: And it’s not even to say that this is an excellent movie.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that, but I, I really think, and I imagine that they probably do, people who are interested in filmmaking, and I’m, I’m speaking [00:36:00] about this particular era, but. I’m sure it’s true of many eras. You know, people who want to be filmmakers and who want to be artistic in their, in their filmmaking should watch movies like this.

Not necessarily to emulate, but to see 

Todd: what’s possible. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and, and choices that Yeah. Cinematographers and directors are making, again, not necessarily to emulate, but there’s, I think, that there’s something to be learned. And, and, and I. Also think, and again, sounding like an old man, there’s something to be learned from filmmakers who were doing it before.

There were so many other easy options. 

Todd: Yes, yes. 

Craig: When they had to. I, I’m not denouncing. CGI or, or any of the advancements. I mean, all of those advancements are amazing and have their place in filmmaking. But to look at the choices, the stylistic choices [00:37:00] that filmmakers were making before all of that was available, I think is.

Valuable. 

Todd: Well, 

Craig: I just really appreciate it. 

Todd: I mean, and this was a time when every frame counted because every frame is costing you money. 

Craig: Yeah. It’s expensive, 

Todd: right? It’s expensive to shoot on film, you know, multiple takes are gonna cost you. So yeah, to put the artistry into it, when you’re a low budget production takes a certain amount of balls and it’s a strong risk, you know, that you’re taking to set up these shots that you might have to do a few more times to get it right.

Because you’re a little more ambitious. No, I, I know exactly what you’re saying and we’re not trying to make this sound like, like Spielberg here, but it just does stand out among other ones that are similarly artistically shot that there was a lot of garbage that we’ve done from this era as well that was clearly just slapped.

Shot. 

Craig: Well, and there’s something to be learned from those things too. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But, 

Todd: but it’s different. 

Craig: Yeah. It’s different. I, I, I felt like this had a lot to offer, so I, I, I initially thought that he killed that model, Rita, but he doesn’t. Instead he [00:38:00] ties her up to the bed in his apartment, which is. Different than what he’s done before.

And he’s talking to her and he says, I knew you’d come back. I found you and now you’re mine. And in my notes, I just have, he’s a nutcase.

He is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. And then he, then he says, I never wanted to hurt you, but there were so many men. I think all of this. His obsession with women in general is mommy issues. Yeah. It’s all mommy issues. Yep. Who knows what his mother’s situation was, but she turned tricks, I guess. Mm-hmm. To get by and he’s tormented.

By that and his relationship with his mother 

Todd: and her punishment of him. And I think this is when it gets the most explicitly told to us, right? Like he says something about, he’s kind of alluding [00:39:00] to her, locking him in the closet. Oh, all these things. And that then kind of makes sense when you go back to a very puzzling earlier shot in the movie where he had lifted his shirt and we saw these scars on his chest, I thought, okay.

Okay. So she was maybe physically abusive to him as well. You know, so we got a very typical, you know, Norman Bates type situation here. 

Craig: Right, right. Yeah. 

Todd: For this movie. But we are forced to puzzle it together, and I liked that aspect of the movie. I liked that it was a little ambiguous, but we’re getting a general sense of where it’s going and as more pieces of it come out, it starts to coalesce a little bit.

Yeah. And then, and then he ends up killing her as well 

Craig: and scalps her and stabs her in the heart and says, oh, mommy and cries. And then there’s like a weird three or four minute scene where he puts on a funny looking ball cap with like wings on it and plays with toys, like he’s a little boy. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: So, so strange.

Todd: That was a little [00:40:00] bit much I thought, but like a little too on the nose, but. Either way. Yeah, you’re right. This guy’s tormented. We got that. 

Craig: I’ve said this before about other movies. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but this felt like a play to me. Like this felt like something that I would see on stage.

Oh, and I can’t explain why. I guess it’s just because it’s one person acting. 

Todd: In a, in a small, in a, in a limited space 

Craig: for, for us. Yeah. Yeah. Like it’s, yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it doesn’t really advance the plot or anything. It’s more just kind of char character development isn’t what I’m going for, but. I don’t know, just kind of an, an intimate look into an individual person.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: That feels more theatrical than cinematic. 

Todd: Yes. Yeah. 

Craig: But anyway, whatever. So then he goes out with the photographer again, like they’re gonna go on a date. She seems to be super into him, by the way. Yeah. So he should calm down and not kill her. [00:41:00] But then he’s like, uh, can we stop by and visit my mom? I guess it’s, it’s her.

Birthday or something. I don’t know. I might be making that up. Yeah, it’s 

Todd: Christmas time. He says, every time around Christmas I visit, I put a Reath on her grave or something, and that was her birthday. 

Craig: She, and she’s like, sure, no problem. Like 

Todd: so this is a Christmas movie? 

Craig: It is a Christmas movie. I thought the same thing too.

It really is. So they visit his mother’s grave and he. Weeps. And she’s like, uh, calm down.

And then he says something about Rita. Now Rita is her friend, the model who is missing now, and they know that she’s missing. And he says something about her, I don’t remember what he says. And she’s like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, uh, Rita. And so she gets freaked out and he tries to strangle her, but she runs away and he chases her through the cemetery and at some point she hits him [00:42:00] with a shovel.

Yeah. 

Todd: On the shoulder, 

Craig: and then he’s back at his mom’s grave somehow and he calls out to her and she answers him. 

Todd: Yeah, he’s really well. He is basically hallucinating. This 

Craig: is wild. 

Todd: Yeah, I guess. I, well, sure. Because of, because 

Craig: the next moment this, this was an, it was an odd twist in this movie because you hear the mother’s voice say something like, mother has to punish you, and he says, please don’t lock me in the closet.

And then he rocks back and forth, like weeping at her grave and her rotting corpse comes out of the grave and grabs him. I don’t have a problem with this in general and in theory. But it was such. Kind of an abrupt change. 

Todd: Hmm. 

Craig: I, I, I don’t know. I, I, I, I think that what we are meant to believe is that he’s [00:43:00] crazy and that this isn’t really happening.

He’s just imagining it. 

Todd: Yes. 

Craig: But it, it just, it just felt like a, a, a. Extreme and unexpected twist in this movie. Like I wasn’t expecting Night of the Living Dead, 

Todd: right 

Craig: at this point in this movie. 

Todd: I mean, I think it’s a shock, but then once you know, the camera cuts back to a, a medium shot of him at the grave and you see that he’s just cowering there, right?

Right. And it’s immediately obvious that it was his, his hallucination. I thought it, I thought it worked quite well. I thought it was an escalation of his mental state. 

Craig: Yeah, that’s fair. 

Todd: But you’re right. I mean, it’s true that it comes outta nowhere for a moment, and I think that’s effective. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Like what, whoa, what?

What’s going on here? Oh yeah. Okay. It’s, he’s hallucinating. That makes sense. It was well done too. You know, like so much of this is actually really well done. We haven’t even talked about the special effects by Tom Sini. Tom Snis got a part in this. He did all the effects. I thought the kills in this were great because [00:44:00] they felt 

Craig: they looked fantastic, 

Todd: they looked great, and they did not look so sensational.

They really, they were uncomfortable when he, 

Craig: mm-hmm. 

Todd: I can’t remember who it is. I think it’s the model eventually where he stabs her slowly through the back with a bayonet. I was. Disturbed by that, you know? Mm-hmm. This is like a way a person would actually die. It was bothersome to me. And again, when you talk about Notorious, this movie has one of, I think the more notorious kill scenes.

Mm-hmm. In horror where even Savini said, maybe I went a little too far with this. And that is his own character’s death where he’s parked with this chick. Mm-hmm. And it’s one, it’s earlier in the movie, you know, it’s one of these mm-hmm. Just kind of randos that he kills. But he does seem to be targeting couples at this point.

Savini is parked with his girlfriend out some dark place and they start to make out in the back and she gets freaked out. ’cause uh, Zito pops up in the window at a, staring in at them and she’s like, I want to go, I want to go. And he is fine. He gets in the front seat and as he’s. Starts up the car and the headlights come on.

He sees [00:45:00] Frank standing in front. Mm-hmm. The car. And he, we had seen him earlier packing a shotgun. 

Craig: Yep. 

Todd: So he’s got a shotgun in his hand and he like, this happens in seconds. It’s so quick. It’s so jarring. It’s so abrupt. He leaps onto the hood of the car, like Spider-Man aims his gun at this guy in the driver’s seat who is sini and pulls the trigger and blows his head off.

Into a million pieces. We see it. Mm-hmm. In full gory detail. In slow motion. Wow. Impressive. 

Craig: It looks great. It looks so good. Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd: It’s shocking 

Craig: and it’s gross. Disgusting. I think it’s funny. I think it’s funny that he said that he felt like he had gone too. Far. No, that that was perfect. Yeah, like it looked so good.