2 Guys And A Chainsaw - A Horror Movie Review Podcast

In this episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw, we revisit the 1985 anthology film ‘Cat’s Eye,’ written by Stephen King.

We delve into its three stories—two adapted from King’s ‘Night Shift’ collection and one original story featuring Drew Barrymore. We’ll tackle our memories of the film from childhood, the impressive acting, and the memorable third segment. We also touch on the film’s music by Alan Silvestri and the direction of Louis Teague.

If you’re a fan of anthologies, Stephen King adaptations, or classic horror, this episode is for you. Join the conversation and share your thoughts!

Episode 459, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: This week we decided to dip back into anthology territory. We haven’t done a good anthology in a while, I think since we did the month of anthologies a while back. Right. 

Craig: I don’t know. But when you suggested this movie ISI would’ve put a hundred dollars down that we had already done it.

Oh, yeah. I, I thought for sure we had already done it. 

Todd: I had thought about it. I, I’m surprised we haven’t, it, it comes to my mind every time we talk about doing anthologies. ’cause this is an anthology. I remember very distinctly watching as a young kid. And, uh, what we’re talking about is Kat’s Eye from 1985 with a screenplay written by Stephen King.

It’s an anthology of three stories. The first two stories are based on actual stories from his night shift collection, which by the way. I wore out. I loved that book. I had a paperback of that. Oh, it’s so good. And I, I probably read every story in there three or four times. I loved it. Yeah. And a and a, a third original one, uh, that was written specifically for this movie, and specifically I believe, to feature Drew Barrymore, so, mm-hmm.

Yeah, I had great memories from watching this. It was fun to watch it again because all these things kind of came back to me. They made deep impressions on me as a kid, you know, just imagery here and, and thematic material there. But I think it was Stephen King’s first PG 13 rated movie, and so, mm-hmm. I guess it makes sense.

I could have watched as a kid, there’s nothing in here that’s really so. Terrible that I shouldn’t have seen. I think I was pretty young. 

Craig: No. Yeah. How about you? Yeah, it’s pretty tame me. I don’t remember. I mean, I think I must have seen this when I was a kid, but, and I’ll probably repeat this several times throughout the episode.

I remember the third story so well. Yeah. And the other two stories. Not so much. I mean, when I, when I was looking at it and when I was looking it up and researching it and when I started watching it and stuff, I’m like, oh yes, I remember these and I remember exactly what happens. Mm. But they’re not particularly memorable to me.

Right. Like they’re fine, whatever. But the third one, so memorable, I just absolutely loved when I was a kid and I would get so excited I, this isn’t one that we had on VHS, so if I would happen to catch it on. Cable or whatever. I would be so excited. ’cause I loved it. I loved the one so much. 

Todd: I think that’s third one’s the best.

They really kind of, I can’t say they really ramp up. I can just say that the third one’s the best for me. 

Craig: It’s the best for the movie. I don’t remember reading the first story. I don’t think. No, I did. I read them both. Quitters Inc. And The Ledge. I read them both several times ’cause they were in that. I feel like both of those, they’re fine and the actors in them are good in this and we’ll of course get more specific about that in a second.

They’re fine. I just felt like those stories were better on the page, like Right. They were, I don’t know. For some reason they were more suspenseful and, and because there’s not a lot going on. Yeah. You know, it’s not a lot to see and look at. Yeah. I liked them better on the page. They’re fine here. 

Todd: The movie, meh.

The movie has to do a lot to stretch out visuals. You know, I especially think of Quitters Inc. Because there’s that whole sequence where he’s kind of going crazy where he is seeing cigarette stuff everywhere and he’s kind of having these visions at this party and like that I don’t think really was. On the page.

I think that that was almost fabricated specifically to give us something visual to see for the movie. Yeah. This is directed by Louis Teague. Uh, Louis Teague had just directed Cujo a couple years before this. Mm-hmm. And then this same year that Cat’s Eye came out, also the jewel of the Nile. Did you ever watch that?

God, we’d love that as kids. I 

Craig: loved that movie when I was a kid, and it’s not easy to find these days. Well, I, I haven’t, I haven’t given in and paid for it yet, so I haven’t seen it in a long time. But yeah, we loved it. I loved it when I was a kid too. 

Todd: We watched that all the time and, and that song, that Billy Ocean song when the Go and Gets Tough.

Yeah, it’s a great song. God, we sang that all the time, yo, but. If you go back and watch it. Seriously, not good Romance. Romancing the stone still holds up. You know the one before it, but Jewel, the Nile? No, not good. And we did another one. So we did Cujo also by this director. We did alligator too. He directed Alligator in 1980.

Craig: Oh, I liked alligator. That was a lot of fun. Yeah. 

Todd: So great director, and then Stephen King wrote the entire screenplay for this. This might be one of his better written by Stephen King movies. I would say. 

Craig: It’s good. I like it. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: It’s tons of stars in here. Oh my god. Yeah. Big. Everyone’s a star. And Alan Sylvestri did the music for it.

And it’s all kind of Cynthia and I actually wasn’t blown away by the music, to be honest, but Alan Sylvestri himself is a very distinguished, he’s a, I mean, back to the future he Back to the 

Craig: future. Yeah. Oh, oh God. The 

Todd: witches like a million things, like every movie you’ve ever loved. Pretty much from this era on.

He did the music for, there’s so many, so many things. 

Craig: Yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t love the synth score either, but I thought that it was fitting, like Yeah, for for the time and for the feel of the movie. I thought that it was. Fitting it, it, you know, it, it’s no Back to the Future. But no, it’s, I mean, it’s pretty prominently featured.

Like it’s, especially towards the end of each story. It’s pretty prominently featured to like, tell you like, this is the end. Right?

Oh, man, I didn’t, I didn’t hate it, but. It, it is very synthy and, uh, whatever. It’s a thing. It’s a bit on the 

Todd: nose. It’s a bit on the nose, you know, I don’t know what to say. It calls, yeah, it calls attention to itself, which a score really probably shouldn’t do too often. 

Craig: As, as far, as far as the plot is concerned.

I thought of you immediately when it started, because it starts. By following this beautiful cat, and I know that you’re a cat person, Uhhuh. I love cats. And I was, I was like, oh my God. That is a gorgeous cat. It is though, isn’t it? 

Todd: It is 

Craig: a, 

Todd: it is. It is a beautiful cat. It’s not only a gorgeous cat. This is a well trained cat.

It’s, he’s a good actor. Oh my God. I, I have to imagine. That the, the most difficult part of this whole movie was getting all these amazing cat shots. This cat is fantastic. It, it’s running around, it’s going in places, it’s jumping over things. It’s acting, I mean, whatever they did to, I, I was hoping and praying that there would be something in the trivia that would tell me more about this damn cat.

Mm-hmm. And or his handler. Or her handler and nothing. Nothing at all. 

Craig: Well, I, I’m sure you read the thing about how they did the shocking scene, which Yeah. Which is disturbing. But that’s the only thing that I read about it too. But it is a beautiful cat, and I was, I’m, I’m just reminded because Alan and I used to have cats, and we loved our cats and it was great because we were in college and we lived in apartments.

We didn’t have a lot of space. Loved them, loved them, loved them. And then we switched to dogs and we’ve been dog people ever since. I love cats. I think they’re amazing. I think they’re super smart. They are super independent and can pretty much take care of themselves. I just can’t handle litter boxes. Oh, okay.

Gotcha. I hate them. I hate litter boxes. Disgusting. Well, and then, and you can’t, and you can’t have cats and dogs because dogs love litter boxes and they’ll, it’s like a Chinese buffet for them. Oh. Like, they’re super excited. Don’t tell me that. Ah, I know it’s gross. And I know you can, you can cut that. You can cut that.

Todd: No, 

Craig: we’re gonna keep 

Todd: it. 

Craig: I think this is the second time you brought that up. Actually. We’re gonna keep it in both 

Todd: circumstances. 

Craig: So gross. But I love cats. They’re gorgeous. But this movie, the through line is this cat and I don’t remember where it starts. I wanna say New York. It, it travels all over New England.

Oh God. This movie, this cat gets around. Yeah, it gets around the opening scene, like it’s just running around and, and the camera’s following it and like it gets chased by Cujo. It 

Todd: does 

Craig: almost hit by Christine. I mean, yeah, like the car from Christine with a bumper sticker that literally says something like, watch out for me.

I am evil. I’m Christine. Like, I know why. Come on. I dunno. I like it. I should just slip that joke in without the 

Todd: bumper sticker calling it out. Ugh. 

Craig: God. Oh, I think it’s so, I love them. It’s cheesy and there are, so there are tons of these little nods to Stephen King at, at some point somebody’s watching the movie The Dead Zone.

At some point somebody’s reading. Pet. Cemetery. Cemetery. Like I think it’s funny. It’s funny. I liked it. I thought it 

Todd: was funny. I just thought, come on, give us some credit. Will you On the bumper sticker? 

Craig: True. Yeah. It was a little much. 

Todd: Well, the cat runs around and goes all over the place, gets chased by Cujo, almost hit by Christine.

Then it jumps onto a truck that is shipping tobacco somewhere, and then when it jumps out, it’s in the middle of New York City. And so it kind of goes from the suburbs to New York City, I’d say. Yeah, and I read that. There was originally some scenes that explained the motivations of the cat. 

Clip: I 

Todd: know I read that too, and I can’t imagine like, what, 

Clip: how would that have been?

How are you gonna get 

Craig: like, oh, are we gonna get like the cat’s backstory? Like, I don’t get it. I think it was wise to leave it out and I also didn’t think like. It was so obvious to me that the cat was just the through line. Yeah. And that it was, and that it was going somewhere because after it gets off that truck, a mannequin.

That has Drew Barrymore’s face, 

Todd: ghost Drew Barrymore. 

Clip: Help me.

You gotta find it after me. 

Craig: And, and, and Drew Barrymore just keeps popping up. Like, it’s so weird everywhere in this movie, but it’s so weird. I didn’t find it odd at all. I actually, oh. It’s fine, but with these kind of anthology movies, sometimes there’s no through line at all. Mm. Sometimes it’s just, well, now we’re moving from this story to this story, like creep show or whatever.

Yeah, you’re right. I, I kinda, I kinda like that there’s a. Through line in this, 

Todd: uh, there, yeah, the better ones definitely have through lines. Of course creep show, the through line is kind of, its pages of a comic book. It’s really simple, but there is kind of a through line. There’s a, there’s a framing story.

I like that this has the cat as the through line, but it’s funny that the through line is not just the cat, it’s also Drew Barrymore. 

Craig: I know it’s weird. 

Todd: Like the cat just looks, how 

Craig: does this ghost, right. Who is Drew Barrymore and why is she every girl and she’s calling to him like, first of all, she’s multiple characters throughout.

Yes. The movie. And when we finally get to her, it’s not like she’s been psychically calling to this cat. Like she doesn’t know anything about it either. Yeah. It’s just the essence of Drew Barrymore needs to get this cat. To a particular Drew Barrymore to take care of her. 

Todd: She was cast because the director really liked her in Firestarter, which was just a year before this.

Craig: I’ve never seen Firestarter Have you? 

Todd: I have. I saw it when I was a kid. It really freaked me out and then I read the book and it was good. I was okay. I haven’t read it either. It’s fine. It’s a pretty simple book for Stephen King book. It freaked me out as a kid because it’s basically these, uh, this kid and her father, I think, who both have the psychic power that they can start fires and the government’s pursuing them and they’ve gotta, you know.

Get away from that. Yeah, 

Craig: yeah, I get it. She’s a fire starter. I get it. I am the fire starter. Stop.

Yeah. Okay. Alright. So the mannequin talks to the cat and it’s like, help me. Okay. And then we get the first story and it’s James Wood and he’s going to like a smoking cessation. Facility, like he wants to stop smoking or whatever. Yeah. Quitters Inc. Is it wood or woods? I can’t remember. Woods. James Woods?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. My sister moved to LA right out of college and she was auditioning for shows and stuff and he had a show and she auditioned for his show and I had always heard that he was a dirtbag and like he just seems like a dirt bag. Oh yeah. But she said that she. Auditioned for him, and in fact, he is a dirt actor.

Oh, really? What you’re gonna say? Yeah. He’s actually really nice. Oh man. No, no, no. He’s actually not like, you know, my sister, she’s like five. Seven or something. Yeah, she’s a little tiny person and she’s like, James Woods was only interested in like the tall, skinny blondes with big boobs and those were like the only people that he would see.

However, she said that his co-star, I don’t even know what the show was, but I’m pretty sure his co-star was Andy Richter and she said he was lovely. Of course I wouldn’t expect anything less from Andy Richter. Uh, but anyway, so he goes to this, uh, smoking cessation place and the guy who. Is, I don’t know the boss there.

I don’t know anything about this guy. I looked up his name. His name is Alan King. Mm-hmm. And I really don’t know anything about him except for that I a hundred percent know who he is. Like I’ve seen him in a bazillion things. Mm-hmm. And he’s kind of a, not old Hollywood, but older Hollywood than us, but he was, yeah.

I feel like he was 

Todd: in everything for a minute. He really was. He always played a heavy, he often played kind of a heavy guy, sometimes a father, that type of thing. I think more or less after this, like he was in bonfire the vanities and God. Yeah. Now that I’m looking rush hour two, it’s funny. That now. Now I know because you just recognize it.

Look at it doesn’t look like 

Craig: he 

Todd: was in that much that I would recognize. But God, 

Craig: he’s got an amazing, a great voice, a very recognizable voice. I, I guarantee if you watch this movie, you’ll see this guy and he’ll be like, oh yeah, that guy, that guy, yeah. I definitely see him, you know, know this guy. Anyway, so he shows James Woods this like.

Room behind glass that’s like just a metal, great floor. And the cat is in there. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. They picked up the cat from the street. Yeah. 

Craig: Some goon picked, picked up the cat. Right. Whatever. And they start playing. And I skipped something. He, when he was in the lobby, there was some guy in the lobby and he was super, super nervous.

And then his wife came out and the wife looked like she was in bad shape. Not good. Mm-hmm. So now he sees this room and the cat and they start playing twist and shout or something, I don’t know. And then they start shocking the cat. Like the floor is electrified. Yeah. Like they’re shocking the cat. And he says, well, the, the song is part of the conditioning.

Okay. Whatever. I don’t care. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But basically he tells, what I don’t understand about this is apparently that just by walking into the building, you have contracted yourself to this. I know. Yeah. When he, when he finds out this guy’s like, well, the first time operatives will be watching you all the time.

All the time. Yeah. It’s about, 

Todd: it’s about quitting smoking. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And, and you won’t, you sometimes you’ll know they’re there, sometimes you won’t. They’re gonna be watching you all the time, and the first time you get caught, we put your wife in the electric shock room. Mm-hmm. The second time you get shot or get caught.

We put your daughter and, and, and they know where her school is. They know everything about him. Yeah. We put your daughter in the electric shock room. Third time your wife gets raped. Yeah. What? Wow. Excuse me. Ah, and he hasn’t agreed to anything like he, he was. A friend of his referred him to this place. He walks into the office, sat in the waiting room, and then got pulled into this office and this guy just starts telling him all this stuff.

Did he even pay? You 

Todd: know,

oh my God. It’s crazy. I don’t get it. It was so much better on the page, I’m sure, because I read this and the, the, the story just made me sick. Well, he then comes home and he’s freaked out. And I guess, you know, like, I don’t know, wouldn’t you like just call the cops or something at this point? But, uh, he sneaks downstairs, eventually wakes up in the middle of the night and wants to get a smoke.

He sneaks downstairs into his office, which is a room with the windows open. The blinds are wide open while he digs through his drawers and finds an an almost empty pack with one cigarette left in it when he pulls it out and gets ready to light it. The closet door in there kind of opens a little bit.

So then he goes over and he grabs an umbrella to pro to push it open. And then when he opens the second door, his golf clubs all fall out. So then he tosses the umbrella back into the closet and hears a oof from somebody. Now he looks in and sees ghees, which are surely not his. They’re wet sticking out from under the clothes.

They’re wet. And what does, he can see that they’re wet. What does he do? He’s just like. I didn’t smoke it. Notice I didn’t light it. Tears it up and walks out of the fucking room. What? I don’t know. I thought that part was scary. Oh, it was scary. But he leaves and goes back up to bed. What you think? There’s a guy in your closet, it’s pretty clear.

There’s a guy in your closet. You’re just gonna accept that and go to bed then. But 

Craig: then he goes and yells at the guy, like he goes back to the place and yells at the boss. Man’s like, there was somebody in my house. And he is like, yeah, well. It could happen. They do. They, they do their job. 

Todd: He doesn’t, he doesn’t really check the closet until the next day when the glosses are not there.

But then he sees dirt, you know, footprints coming out of it. I’m like, oh my God. So that was weird. I, I didn’t like that bit just ’cause I thought it was so dumb. 

Craig: My thinking was, yeah, there’s somebody in there and he knows that now, but he also knows who it is and so he doesn’t care. Well, it’s not that he doesn’t care, but like he’s so freaked out, like he 

Todd: thinks they’ll shoot him or something.

Craig: They’re not necessarily here to hurt me. They’re just watching. Right. I think he’s afraid of getting in trouble, like he doesn’t wanna get in trouble. Gotcha. Anyway, whatever. It doesn’t matter. Who cares? That’s fine. So then the next day he goes, I was a little confused about this. Mm-hmm. He goes and visits his daughter.

Drew Barrymore in a terrible wig and glasses and he gives her a legit cabbage patch kid. Love that. That was, that was big back then. That was big. 

Todd: I had 

Craig: one. Did you have 

Todd: one? Oh, I had one, yeah, for sure. Mine was a, um, was a ringmaster, a circus ringmaster. He had boots. He had a snazzy vest and outfit. He had a top hat.

He was badass. I might still have him. So I think I do. I think I do. 

Craig: Mine was. Before they started specifically making like the infant, like baby ones when they were still Cabbage Patch kids. Uhhuh. Mine was baldheaded except for a little tiny tuft of blonde hair at the top. They came with names. Oh yeah.

Birth certificates. Yeah. I don’t remember if. My Cabbage Patch kid came with its name. I mean, I know it came with name, but I remember that its name was Robby Lee. 

Clip: Okay. 

Craig: I don’t know if that’s the name that was on his birth certificate or if I made that up, but that was my little almost baldheaded. Oh my goodness.

Name 

Todd: Robbie. 

Craig: Lee, 

Todd: my Cabbage patch kid came from Babyland General Hospital down in Georgia. 

Craig: Oh gosh. That’s great. I love it. Do you 

Todd: know about this place? I think it still exists. No, it’s this, it’s this like house that you can go to and inside it’s a, it’s a hospital for Cabbage Patch kids. It’s where they’re born.

There is a cabbage patch inside here and you can gather around and witness them birthing cabbage patches. Gosh out. Oh my gosh. These cabbage patches, cabbages. Oh my God. That was a trip. I remember that. That’s where I got my ringmaster because they had a giant circus, kind of like an automated, like where they had put all the Cabbage Patch kids in, but then they could, like they were trapeze and there were things, and then they would all move and stuff in the middle.

And I was entranced by that. That was a whole thing. 

Craig: Yeah, I’m pretty sure mine 

Todd: came 

Craig: from Santa. Um, so anyway, so then, so he visits Drew Barrymore at her school and. That’s weird. Like, and I couldn’t tell what was going on with that. Like I almost felt like they were kind of telling Drew Berry more to maybe kind of play it kind of slow.

Yeah. Like why I didn’t understand what was happening. And it doesn’t appear that their child lives with them. Right, right. I, the only time we ever see her is at school. 

Todd: I guess you’re 

Craig: right. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. Whatever. And the guy from the smoking place shows up and menas him a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. And then he gets stuck on a drawbridge. Ju just 

Todd: like the opening to a maximum overdrive. Remember, 

Craig: it’s the same bridge. I read that too. Oh, 

Todd: is it? I didn’t see that 

Craig: part. Yeah, it’s, it’s the, it’s the same bridge that that was filmed on and I Oh, that makes sense. I know. And when I read that, I was like.

Oh yeah, it looks like that bridge. I remember that bridge. Right. Okay. But he’s on a draw bridge. He’s looking around, he’s thinking, surely nobody will see me. One of the cars right next to him is a convertible and this guy is making out with a girl. And I am like, well, obviously that’s one of the, it’s him.

It’s obviously one of the watchers or whatever. 

Todd: You don’t think it’s the two kids completely unbuckled in the back of the station wagon. Front of him doing the pillow fight? No, I didn’t think it was them. There were so many dated things in this movie. It was really cute to watch. Like nobody does that anymore, obviously.

But it was not uncommon for us to ride in the backseat seat. Oh no, not at 

Craig: all. 

Todd: Station wagon without seat belts 

Craig: on. We didn’t wear seat 

Todd: belts. No, 

Craig: nobody wore seat belts back 

Todd: then. We had a seat that flipped up and face backwards. I don’t even think that’s legal anymore, but we had had it installed in our Volvo station wagon.

It was this hard as hell seat that I think was plywood covered with like the thinnest amount of fabric you could get and it would flip up kind of open up, and there were seat belts, but we would be facing backwards. It’s like enough for two small kids to sit next to each other facing whoever was coming up behind you.

Probably the most unsafe thing in the world when you think about it. Somebody rear ends you. Uh, yeah. God. 

Craig: My mom drove a minivan for decades. She’s out of her minivan phase, but she drove a minivan for decades and the first minivan that I remember that she had didn’t have three seats. Instead, it had the second seat that folded down into a full.

Bed and it was amazing when we would go places on vacation and stuff and my, you know, that were long drives, we would just drive through the night because my parents could put that bed down and my sister and I would sleep in the back. Blankets, pillows, I’m telling you, it was a full size bed. And then we’d wake up in the morning and we’d be there.

Oh God. And they wouldn’t have had to have dealt with kids. Yeah, through the whole drive. It was amazing. I loved it. It’s 

Todd: different time 

Craig: anyway. What were we talking about? I don’t know. I think there’s a movie that we watched. He discovers cigarettes in the glove box. Yeah, he just in the glove box and he thinks he’s gonna be real sneaky and he puts shades on.

Oh my gosh. Leans down, smokes and ducks 

Todd: down. It’s so funny actually, because the smoke is clearly coming up in the car and then you just see this arm come up and try to wave it all over. You like 

Craig: wave it away. I’ve been there. I get it. I quit smoking though. I, I mean, I, I switched it for vaping, so I’m not gonna brag too much.

But, um, no, it’s something, it’s definitely something I did. I, I quit smoking smokers out there. If you didn’t think you could do it, I didn’t think I could do it, but I can. And it wasn’t as hard as I thought it was gonna be. In fact, one day I just smoked my last cigarette and that was it. Wow. And then I just started 

Clip: vaping.

Todd: You had to replace it with something, but it’s somehow, that’s a little bit, 

Craig: yeah. I, I don’t have like a cold and a sore throat. All year round anymore. Mm. For the longest time when I smoked cigarettes, I was always sick. I always had a cold, you know, go back and listen to our old episodes. I used to put Todd through the ringer.

Oh. Editing out my coughing. You don’t know how many coughs I had to edit out this guys. Mm-hmm. You can do it. It’s, it’s possible, but it is hard for some people. My dad’s been struggling with it forever. He just, he can’t beat it, but, so he smokes and he gets caught. And they put his wife in the shock room.

Todd: Yep. And then it, it’s interesting because then he goes into the, the room, I guess, to meet her after the shock room. He’s gotta confront her and they watch it on camera, but there’s no sound. And one of his goons is like, uh, 

Clip: hey boss ain’t gonna turn the sound up. There’s no reason to. When you’ve been in a business as long as I have, you get to know every line.

In 30 seconds, she’s either gonna squeeze this guy hard enough to give him a hernia, or she’s gonna slap him in the face and walk out. 

Todd: They make bets on which it’s gonna be, and sure enough, she embraces him. Hard to imagine. But, uh, I don’t know. I think it’s an interesting concept. And like I said, I think it worked a lot better on the page.

Yeah, on the screen, everything seems so extreme that it’s really hard to buy into, but you just go with it really quickly. Now it’s suddenly like they’re all on good terms now. Right. Like he’s been through the program. He’s been off smoking for a while, apparently now he’s with that guy at his goon and they’re in his, off his office.

But it’s like a little medical checkup and he is like, you gotta keep this target weight. And they’re, yeah. And they’re chummy, like, yeah, they’re friendly. Mm-hmm. Like, thank you, thank you for threatening me to help me cut smoking. But then he jokes as he leaves. This is what I remembered so much as a kid.

I don’t remember again if it was from the movie or from the, the, the story, but he jokes with him and he is like, now you gotta keep that target weight up or whatever like that. And then James Woods is like, ah, what are you gonna do? Come home and do something else? He says, no, I’ll just go home and cut your wife’s finger off, whatever.

And then the last scene. Which I thought was great is he’s sitting at the table two couples having that classic eighties dinner party with the linen table claws and the candelabra that they bring out. And, uh, they’re toasting him and his friend who brought him there originally, and their wives are toasting.

Two Quitters Inc. And as the, as his friend’s wife raises her glass, he sees that her pinky finger is indeed cut off. So the idea is that this is probably, he’s never gonna be out of this, right? That he’s always gonna be under the gun and it’s kind of. It’s scary as 

Craig: hell. Yeah. Again, by every account that I’ve heard, James Woods is kind of an asshole, but he’s a good actor.

He is. And I liked him and he’s real young in this. Yeah, I liked that one. And then the cat gets away. Yeah. And takes the ferry to Atlantic City. Oh my God, that is so funny. Or something, I don’t know. And then. It goes, drew Barrymore is in a commercial on television. Again, like, help me. It’s still coming for me.

It’s getting closer. Okay. This story, I do remember reading this story, and I think that this story is excellent. I think that this is an excellent short story. Mm. And it was first published in Penthouse Magazine, which is perfect. Ah, Stephen King did that a lot. I mean, he was a, yeah. Playboy penthouse. Yeah.

He was a young writer. This was his job. He was getting paid. He would get this shit published wherever he could get it published, and it was Playboy and it was penthouse, but. Other more mainstream publications too. Well, and like, I just think this, I think this is a great penthouse story. It’s seedy. Mm-hmm.

I mean, it’s not porny at all. No, no. At all. But it’s set in a world. That is appropriate 

Todd: for Penthouse Magazine? I think, well, I mean, it was an honor. I mean, to have a short story and it’s so quaint now. You can’t who even reads a magazine now? I know, right? But magazines used to be a very big outlet for starting writers to publish their short stories, and Playboy was one of the biggest magazines.

If you had a, if you had a story in Playboy, you were well respected. You know, they’re not just sex stories or anything like that. Like really, they would have actual. Literary short stories in there. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, for sure. Yeah. He made a big, when he did that, it helped him along his way anyway. Right. But yeah, I, I agree.

I like this one too. It’s okay. It’s better. I think. Again, it’s better on the page, but I was just enthralled by the very beginning. What, where they get this cat back in here. Because the cat makes it to Atlantic City, and we follow this guy out of, out of the casino that he owns. He’s your typical mafia boss kind of dude.

He’s a Yeah. Big wig. Mm-hmm. And I, he was clearly making an entrance, right. As an actor. It’s one of those deals where they concealed his face, like we’re just following behind him as he walks out the front door of his very busy casino, and then he spins around to answer someone’s question, and I imagine at the time the entire audience would be go, oh, it’s him.

Mm-hmm. Kenneth. McMillan, who’s been in a million things, and you’d recognize him as well. He was in Dune just before this. He was in Amadeus. He was in, um, a lot on television. Oh yeah. Dog day afternoon, Stepford wives, Serco, taking of Pellum, 1, 2, 3. I really liked the taking of Pellum. 1, 2, 3. And he’s the borough commander in that one.

The original there was a remake, but the original 19 74 1 is fantastic. Right. Anyway, yeah. So he, he makes his entrance and then he and some guy he knows, noticed the cat. Across the street trying to, it stuck. It’s stuck in the median and they make bets as to whether or not the cat will make it across or not.

I loved the sequence and I do not know how they shot this while keeping that cat safe. There was one spot where they were clearly overlays, two shots, but a lot of the rest of it, I don’t know if they just had glass up to keep the cat from moving too far or whatever, but I was scared for that damn cat.

And the cat does end up making it across the street, so the boss guy wins. But not without two cars swerving to avoid him crashing into each other. I wasn’t scared for the cat. Yeah, well you knew the cat was gonna live. That cat knows what’s up.

I loved that bit. And you know it’s funny how like. A lot of these anthology stories, they don’t try to tie their wraparound or framing stories in as well as this one does. That cat is a fixture. Oh yeah, absolutely. In every one of these stories and has his little moment in this one. Before we get onto the story, you know, 

Craig: as we’ve already said, but I want to e.

Size again, this cat is a good actor and like I’m invested in his story. Yeah. No joke, right? Oh God, I am, I, I am with this cat all the way. It, it turns out, it turns out that this big boss man, his girlfriend is having an affair. With the guy from airplane. Yes. Robert Hayes. Yeah. The Mob Mafia type guy. Like confronts the airplane guy.

And what, what, what does he does? He objective does make him an offer. Like, like you can have, you can have her, if. Or something. I don’t know. 

Todd: He sends his girlfriend away because he knows he’s in trouble. He owes money or something like that, or he is stolen money. I’m not quite sure what it was, but as soon as these guys abduct him, just as soon as she’s, he’s set her away, they plant heroin in his car and drive it to a.

Parking garage and he threatens that he’s going to call the police and he’s gonna tell ’em about the heroin and this guy’s gonna be in big trouble. Or he can make a wager. If he wins the wager, he can have the money back. He won’t call the police and he can have his wife. Yeah. And so they go, and the wager is that there’s this just very narrow, you know, five inch ledge that goes around the entire.

Building. They’re up on, I don’t know, the penthouse suite of some very, very, very tall New York skyscraper type thing. And uh, he’s like, you can just walk around the whole thing, then you win. Yeah. 

Craig: And I remember this being really, really good. Like it, it’s a really good story. Hmm. It doesn’t transfer as well?

No. To the screen, I don’t think, because ultimately it just gets boring. Like, yeah. On the page. The tension is so high and I, I don’t remember what the narrative perspective is, but I don’t remember if we’re in this guy’s head, but it’s just very tense here. We’re just watching a guy scoot along a ledge like, yeah.

I get, I 

Todd: get it. A bird packs at him for a while, right? The guy pops out and throws things at him and blasts water at him every now and then. But maybe the only scary I, I don’t know. The only real tense part is when he like gets to this sign that stuck to the side of the building and the sign kind of falls apart and he is dangling from it for a while.

But I don’t know, I just always felt like I knew he was gonna make. Yeah, because what, well, how’s this story gonna end? Do you just plummets off the ledge? That’s, that’s no fun. So I knew he was gonna make it, so I just, I felt like I was just watching him go through the paces here. And you’re right, it’s kind of slow.

Craig: I mean, it’s fine. I mean, things happen visually. It’s good. Like you said, like, like a pigeon. Peck him and he is like, ow, you little pecker. Oh, that’s funny. There’s a pecker joke in the next one too. Mm-hmm. I don’t know. And like, yeah, he has to like climb up an electrical cord and stuff and the cat is there and there’s a shootout.

I don’t remember. Yeah, I, I guess the, a shootout between the, I don’t know, good guys and bad guys or whatever, but it ultimately ends up with him making the mob guy. Do the ledge. Yeah, and I think that’s how the story ended too. Yeah. I think the story may have been a little bit more ambiguous in the end, but for sure he makes the mob guy get out on the ledge and do the walk or whatever.

In the movie, I don’t remember what happens in the book, but in the movie, that same rascally pigeon. Peck’s at the heavy mob guy and he falls off and dies. Yeah, he doesn’t last long. The end. The end. And so then the cat catches a train to Wilmington, North Carolina. Yes. This cat knows how to get around. It gets around God, and this is my favorite one.

And I love it. I love it from start to finish. It’s so good. I love that. As, as soon as the cat arrives, we are introduced to this new family and the way that we’re introduced to them is that we see a, a strange. Point of view shot from what could be a cat? Yeah. Because it’s small and quick and low to the ground, but it’s also making funny noises like Yeah, it’s like evil dead cam going through the, but tiny, yeah, but small because ’cause it’s real close to the ground, it’s really small and it turns out that it’s some kind of troll and apparently.

The essence of Drew Barrymore has been warning the cat, like this thing is coming for me. Apparently now it’s there and it’s founder Uhhuh, but the cat gets there at the same time. Thank God, just in time too. Really Just in 

Todd: time. The girl, Amanda is her name, drew Barrymore, and she’s got these lovely parents.

They have this lovely house in this place and, and, uh, she just, the cat runs up to her and into the house, I think, and she’s like, can we keep it? Can we keep it? And she calls it general, but they insist on putting the cat out every night. And at some point the mom 

Craig: does. Yeah. Her mom’s kind of a bitch.

She’s, she’s a little, she’s not nice to this cat. Well, she’s, she’s just a mom. She’s doing her best. I shouldn’t 

Todd: judge her. Alright. I remember this little conversation between her and her father at breakfast. 

Clip: Your mom just happened to have a conference call with Nana, uh, last evening and Nana told your mom that, um, cats steal kids’ breath.

Why would general take my breath if he has his own? Ah, well, you have to put all the animals outside in the night. I mean, especially the cat animals, because if you don’t, they climb up and sit on your chest and suck all your bread out like this. That is very, very helpful. Hugh, 

Todd: is that a thing or is that just something Stephen King made of 

Craig: it’s, it’s an old wive’s tale.

No. Is it? Okay. I think it’s an old wive’s tale. Mm-hmm. That’s 

Todd: cool. 

Craig: I think people specifically say it about babies like infants. That makes a lot of sense because cats do like to sleep with you and like if a cat were to sleep on a baby’s head. Then that would be bad. That could be problematic, right? I think that’s where it comes from.

Todd: When I was a baby and we were living in Fort Worth, Texas, my parents had a very problematic cat named Tigger and they said there was something wrong with Tigger that like, it was a very neurotic, strange cat. And they came and found Tigger once in my crib, snarling at me, and that’s when they realized Tigger has to go.

Craig: That’s funny. I’ve been exposed 

Todd: to cat on infant violence in my life. Apparently. 

Craig: We’re, we’re telling lots of personal stories 

Todd: this episode. We really are, 

Craig: but the, I, I almost 

Todd: shouldn’t, I almost shouldn’t tell you what happened to Tigger. Oh, well now you have to, both of my parents are nurses. You know that.

Yeah. And my dad decided to play nurse anesthetist himself on Tigger. He put Tigger in his favorite cage with his favorite blanket and all that stuff in the garage behind the exhaust pipe of the car, and put Tigger to sleep himself. Yeah. Well, that’s all right. They knew that they couldn’t give Tigger away to any other family because Tigger was really that problematic.

So they decided to, yeah, my dad, I don’t know how he feels a little guilty about, I don’t know if he feels guilty. We, we’ve, we don’t talk about it much, but I haven’t really probed him on that one and. All these things, what difference does it make? I mean, it doesn’t matter, you know, not that was a 

Craig: humane, it was, it was humane.

It’s fine. He did it in a humane way. Yeah. My, yeah. I think my grandpa, if there were unwanted litters, I mean, he was a farmer and they didn’t, you know. Spay or neuter their animals. So if there was an unwanted litter, he would just like put ’em in a sack and throw ’em in the pond. Oh no. Are you serious? Oh God.

Yeah. But what I was going to say was we never had pets growing up. Because my parents, when my mom was pregnant with me, they had a dog that they loved, I can’t remember what its name was. I think it was like a spaniel, some kind of spaniel. And they loved it so, so much. And literally like the day before or just days before I was born, it got hit by a car.

In front of their house and my dad had to shoot it with a gun to put it out of his misery. Aw. And we never had pets until I was like a teenager. We finally got a cat.

Man, 

Todd: that’s funny. 

Craig: But I always really wanted a pet, just like Drew Barrymore really wants this cat really bad, and she already has a parat. Mm-hmm. But I Did you go on. It’s so funny, like, did you ever have birds? I, I don’t, no. My mom hates birds. My mom, my parents is scared of birds and so we never had them.

Allen had a bird. I wish I could. Remember his name. It’s like Chewy or El Chapo or something. I don’t remember. But he talks about it and he and his mom loved that bird. I think they’re disgusting and I think that’re disgusting to have in your house. But she has one, and the mom doesn’t want to have the bird, or excuse me, the mom doesn’t want ke the cat because she’s afraid that, well, it seems like she just doesn’t like.

No, the cat. The cat, anyway. But she says, you know, it’ll get the bird or whatever. But Drew Barrymore is like, but I’ve been having these bad dreams where a monster comes out of my wall. Mm-hmm. And general will protect me. Yeah. And that’s true. That’s what is happening. There is a monster in her wall.

General finds a way into the house. It’s horrifying. It is horrifying. 

Todd: Yeah. You know, again, as a kid, this was just, just. Really hits you where it hurts, right? You’re always worried about the monsters in your bedroom. Yeah. And this little opening, almost like a little mouse hole, just kind of folds itself back down at the baseboard in this one spot in her room.

And this little troll comes out and it’s green and it’s kind of gremlin like. And it is fantastic. And I love what they’re doing here with this creature. Me too. It’s not stop motion. It’s like a combination of a little puppet, but mostly it’s, it’s the gate. It’s what they did with the gate where you got Yes, yes.

Just this giant sized set and a person in costume, Uhhuh. It’s so good. And, and I love it. The creature was designed by, um, Carlo Aldi, who did, you know, we’ve done, um, a couple Italian movies that he, uh, he did makeup and, and, uh, puppetry and stuff effects for, but then he went on to do et he designed the ET creature.

King Kong. 

Craig: I love. Love. I love it. I love it. It’s familiar. Like I think she says something about, yeah, you know that, you know that story. The three Billy Goats gruff. It’s like that, but it lives in my wall and it is like, it’s kind of familiar as a troll, but it’s also. Unique. Yes, it’s a great 

Todd: design. 

Craig: It’s, it’s fantastic.

It has this kind of flat nose, and I mean, it, it’s got like these razor, these tiny razor sharp teeth, but its mouth articulates in a way that a human mouth doesn’t. Yeah, like it’s it, its lips seem to have multiple points of articulation, like, yeah, I don’t know. It’s really cool. It looks great. The only thing, and this isn’t a criticism because I don’t care, but the only thing is I couldn’t really get a gauge on its size because sometimes it looked like it was the size of a.

Softball. Right. And sometimes it looked a little bit bigger. It is a little unclear. Yeah, it, but I, I didn’t care. It looks great. Like, I loved the stuff where they were clearly filming it on oversized sets. It looks fantastic. 

Todd: So good. 

Craig: I loved the stuff when it was like crawling on Drew Barrymore, and I don’t know how they did that.

And does it look. A hundred percent real. No, but it looks great and looks good enough. Yeah. And it’s scary. Like I said, when I was a kid, this is the one that stuck with me because it was scary. Yeah. And you know, she, she try, she doesn’t really know what’s going on ’cause she’s asleep as she, I guess, kind of remembers it or is dreaming it or whatever.

And she tries to tell her parents and they brush it aside as parents do. Yeah. I mean, it’s a monster in your room, of course, when you’re a kid. I mean, when, I don’t know. I don’t know if I remember it or it’s just, we’ve seen so many of these movies, but like that’s so frustrating when parents just kind of brush, brush it aside, like, yeah, okay, well I guess when you find me dead, then maybe you’ll take me seriously.

Right. Is almost what happens here. It is like, mom, the, the troll kills the bird. Mm-hmm. And the, the cat tries to, I don’t know, stop it, protect the girl. I don’t know. But the cat gets implicated in the death of the bird. Yes. So the mom captures it in a box and takes it to a kill shelter where it is going to be killed the next.

Day. 

Todd: Yeah. That was fast. Right? Jesus. I love that the dad picks up the cat and no, before mom takes it away because mom does this while dad is gone at work. I love it how he picks up the cat and he sees that it has a wound on his shoulder. And he’s like, that’s that’s a pretty big wound on there. And uh, she’s like, oh, well it looks like Polly got one more peck at it.

You know, before it got, and he’s like, I certainly never realized that Polly has such a big pecker. That’s our second pecker joke. Do you think there was a pecker joke in the first one that we missed? 

Craig: I 

Todd: don’t know. Is that another through line for this? I don’t know. 

Craig: I don’t know. But this one made me laugh really hard.

And this dad has played by somebody recognizable too. Oh yeah. Famous. I, I couldn’t figure out, I, I didn’t know him from anything in particular. It was just another one of those guys I’ve seen in many things 

Todd: been everything. Yeah. 

Craig: So, yeah, so the cat is gone, but it’s also very crafty, so it tricks the worker, like, it pretends like it’s really.

Sleepy. And then when the worker opens the door, it bolts out. Mm-hmm. And I believe that because cats are crafty. Oh yeah. That’s one of the things that I like about them. And they’re fast too. Yeah, they are very fast. I love cats. And it, and it escapes and it runs through the rain. And cats hate being wet, so it must really care about this girl.

Mm-hmm. It runs back to her house where the troll. Is making its big play. It has put a door stop in the door and it gets up on her chest and it starts sucking out her breath and she’s like coughing and and stuff. And then. The cat shows up and it and the troll have a big fight. Oh man, this fight 

Todd: is awesome.

It’s all over the room. It’s with everything I know. So good marbles and toys. Oh my God. And roller skates being thrown and somehow the, a big dictionary falls down in front of his hole so he can’t get back away and, yep. He ends up on the record player? 

Craig: No, before that he try, he tries to float away on some helium balloons.

Yes. And he’s like, he’s like bobbing up and down on the helium balloons. And it was so funny, like they’re showing the cat like swatting at this thing, dangling from helium balloons and it’s just obviously some inanimate thing and the cat swats it and just starts spinning, spinning, spinning. So then they cut to.

A shot of the troll and it’s like the troll is just spinning, spinning and it’s like, ah.

Oh, it’s so funny. Yeah. But yeah, you’re right. It lands on the record player, which plays. The police is, I’ll be watching you or whatever. Yeah. Which is the second time we’ve heard it. But it’s funny. And Drew Barrymore is shouting from her bed. 

Clip: Play it faster. Play it faster. 

Todd: And the cat is dutifully flipping.

Rrp upping the RPMs. Oh. Like he knows. 

Craig: This is so funny. Oh, it’s hilarious. Like young people today, anybody. Any younger than us, I feel like. Did you have a record player? I did. I had one. Oh, 

Todd: yeah. Yeah, we did. I had my own record player. We had a family record player. We could stack multiple records up on it and they’d come down automatically.

Uhhuh. Oh yeah. I had one in my room. I would just play all the time, 

Craig: I think. Oh. Oh. Well, my dad had like a nice. Stereo. I had a Fisher-Price record player. Yeah. But it worked. Mine was, mine was like a Fisher-Price 

Todd: one. Yeah. It was like a, you know, it was mostly plastic, I think. But it worked. You play records on it.

Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. I, I feel like we are the last kinda are generation that experienced that and, and to know, as I recall, mine only had two speeds. Mm-hmm. There was. A faster RPM and a slower RPM? Yeah, the 45 and the 35 I think. Yeah, right. This one. This one apparently is just like on a sliding scale and he can turn it up.

So it sounds like Alvin and the Chipmunks on speed. And he does. And. You see the little troll like holding onto the the little knob central post and the thing and it’s going, ah,

I love it’s little noises. It’s cute. You’ve gotta put in some kind of clip of it’s little noises ’cause they’re so funny and it shoots off into her box fan. Fan, her box fan. Oh my God. And gets totally obliterated as though this were some kind of like industrial, right? Oh, it just gets, it just gets obliterated and it’s hilarious.

And then the, what I didn’t, I didn’t remember this. And what I find most funny is the parents come in. Yeah. And they think that the cat has done something bad and the girl tells them what really happened, and they look at the fan and it’s all blood and guts and gross stuff, but there’s a little troll arm uhhuh and a little troll dagger, and they pick it up and the mom’s like, okay, you can keep the cat.

Just don’t tell anybody about this. 

Clip: What? What? Such a 

Craig: weird reaction, right? Like no one can know. That we had a little troll in our house. You could keep the cat so long as you don’t tell anybody. 

Todd: It’s almost like she’s blackmailing them now, because now you see the general is like eating a fish, like 

Craig: a Bronzino, really on a silver platter 

Todd: with parsley garnish.

Craig: And then he goes up the last scene, he goes up and the cat jumps up on Drew Barrymore’s chest and gets right up next to her. Almost like, you know, like they thought it was gonna steal her breath, but instead it just. Licks her mouth, which is gross. It just ate a big, raw fish is disgusting. However, I have animals, my dogs lick their butt holes and then they come kiss me on the mouth.

Yeah. And I don’t care. So it’s a cute, I it’s, it’s actually kind of cute. I thought it was a 

Todd: very cute ending, especially since it was established this old wives tale and it turns out that it’s the troll doing it, not the cat. And then the cat licks her instead of taking a breath. It’s so cute. 

Craig: Yeah, it’s very cute.

Todd: And then. Credits and there’s a cat’s eye song. 

Craig: Oh, is there? I didn’t even, you do, listen, all I saw, no, the credits started coming up and they list the actors first, and Drew Barrymore is listed first and just credited as. Our girl, uh, which I thought was cute, but I didn’t pay attention to the song. I didn’t know there was a cat’s eye 

Todd: song.

He should have listened to the chorus. It’s like cat’s eye. You’ve Got a cat’s Eye. Something like that is so, it’s so charmingly eighties and com. Entirely forgettable, but I, I love it what a movie has. Theme song that references the title at the end. Yeah, it’s always good. Me too. I really enjoyed this. I mean, look, I mean I did think that the second one was a little slow.

I thought the first one read better on the page. I think we, we both kind of came to that conclusion. They’re not amazing. A creep show is way better. Both the creep shows are way better. Yeah. But true. The through line of the cat is just so charming and it’s so well done. Yeah. And the third story just like makes up for it all.

And I love, I enjoyed it. I just had a good time with it. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, and even in the first two, I don’t think they’re great, but I also don’t think they’re bad. In fact, like the acting in them is quite good. Yeah. If you haven’t seen it, you should definitely watch it and I think that you’ll like it and or slash appreciate it because it is well done.

It is just I would a hundred times go back and watch the third segment again. I don’t necessarily need to watch the first two over and over. I’ve seen them. They were good. That’s fine. The third one’s great and I love it, and I would watch it a hundred times. Over. But if you’ve never seen it, I think you’ll like it.

I do think you’ll like it. 

Todd: Yeah. I, I recommend it highly. I don’t know. I, I recommend it if you’re looking for an anthology, it’s nice. There are worse ones out there. Yeah. There are better ones out there. It’s just fun. Yeah. And if you’re a cat lover, a hundred percent. Gorgeous cat. 

Craig: Beautiful cat in this movie.

Todd: Well, thank you so much for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. Please write a review of this show only if you like it on Apple Podcasts or wherever you review podcasts. Please, uh, help us spread the word. You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast, and for just five bucks a month, you can get.

Complete unedited phone calls that we use for this, and we got some juicy stories in this one. So you get your money’s worth sometimes with some of these weeks anyway, you can get that. You get mini SOS that we put up or reviews. We have a book club going there. We have a lot of fun activity on our Paton that’s.

patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Also, just chainsaw horror.com is our website. Send us a message there as well. Send us a voice message right there as well. There’s a speak to us link for that, and you can sign up for our newsletter, our weekly newsletter Tells you a little bit about what’s going on in horror from this week and the previous week, and, uh, tells you a little bit about what’s coming up next on our show and what’s happening with the patients.

Thank you so much, listeners, for listening, and until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we pay tribute to the late Scott Spiegel by diving into the 1987 horror classic ‘Evil Dead II’. We discuss Spiegel’s integral role in the horror genre, his close associations with influential directors like Sam Raimi and Quentin Tarantino, and his contributions to iconic horror films.

We also delve into the film’s stellar practical effects, Bruce Campbell’s physical comedy, and the film’s mix of horror and humor. If you’re a fan of ‘Evil Dead II’, Scott Spiegel, or fascinating behind-the-scenes tidbits, you won’t want to miss this episode. Join the discussion and share your thoughts!

Evil Dead II: Dead By Dawn (1987)

Episode 458, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Craig. I think 2025 is gonna go down as the summer of tributes. Yeah, I mean, of course this is just our excuses for ways to pick movies. ’cause after you’ve done God close to 500 of these episodes though, we just, uh, don’t know where to begin when we decide what’s going to, what are we gonna do next week.

So it’s real easy when we notice that a person has passed away and be like, oh, they associate with any horror movies. And sure enough, on September 1st of this month, Scott Spiegel passed away and, uh, made, made bigger news than I would’ve expected. Scott Spiegel to make, you know, I don’t think a lot of people know who he is, but he was so instrumental in some of the biggest movies in horror.

That we’ve seen as well as some of the biggest directors, uh, that we’ve seen in Hollywood nowadays. Right? He was a childhood friend of Bruce Campbell and Sam Ramey as they were growing up through school. They used to get a Super eight camera out and shoot lots of, uh, silly movies. Usually three Stooges es type things where they would run around and be silly.

And, uh, that is what got Sam Raey into filmmaking. And it was that crew that got together and made Evil Dead, which we know launched the careers of quite a few people and they remained friends And, uh. Cohorts throughout all this. He co-wrote the screenplay, I guess you could say, for, uh, evil Dead Two. Evil Dead Two is the movie that we’re going to be talking about today, and it’s taken us a while to get to this one just because it is so popular and iconic and you know how we shy away from those things quite a bit, right?

Yeah. Spiegel, actually, I, there are a few things about him I didn’t realize. I know that he and Ramey early on when they got to Hollywood, were close collaborators and friends of Joel and Ethan Cohen. Uh, they worked on the first movie together and what I didn’t realize is that when they all moved to Los Angeles after that they were housemates with Holly Hunter, Francis McDormand and Kathy Bates.

I know. Crazy, right? It’s always 

Craig: crazy. I know. Group of people. Yeah. And it’s always crazy to me and I always, these stories fascinate me and I get jealous. Because it seems like it happens all the time. These famous people who are all kind of famous at the same time, you find out that they’ve known each other forever, like since before they were famous, and I, I just get jealous how cool that is to not only be friends with all of those people, but to.

You have your friendship established even before the fame, like, that’s so cool. 

Todd: Yeah, and I guess it kind of makes sense. You know, you’re all looking, you’re all in the same industry, you’re all looking to make it big, and so one of you gets successful and you kinda helped the other out, and I’m sure that you know it.

It’s not just a coincidence that these people all kind of turned out to be famous. I’m sure that they helped each other out and and made connections. Sure. I was surprised to find out that Scott Spiegel introduced Producer Lo Bender to Quentin Tarantino. Right. Which got him his first movie made a Reservoir Dogs.

Right. ’cause Tarantino had just been like crashing on his couch or something. Right? Yeah. So, you know, even though he’s not a name on the top of everybody’s head, he has, uh, made a serious impact in Hollywood and, and as an actor in his own right. You know, he didn’t have big roles. Right. Usually bit rolls in a lot of movies, but like.

Probably 60 or 70 of them. So, you know, I think he was having a good time and, uh, that’s why we’re doing Evil Dead too today is just a paid tribute to him and of course, to cover this movie that we should have covered a long time ago. 

Craig: I know. 

Todd: When was the last time you saw this? 

Craig: Oh, man, I was telling you when we decided to do this, that there was a time that I feel like I could have basically, you know, recited the, the movie or, or given you a very detailed plot.

Synopsis from beginning to end because I loved it so much and I watched it a lot, especially in college, but starting when I was a kid and then I guess I probably haven’t seen it in like 15 years. It’s been a really long time. So it was kind of cool to go back. What about you? Oh 

Todd: God, I think I rewatched it a year or two ago with Liz because she may or may not have seen it.

We just wanted to re refresh ourselves on it because we had done what the, the new evil Dead right. And it kind of inspired us to go back and watch the originals. But beyond that, yeah, God decades really, I really enjoyed the movie. I don’t think I saw it until maybe a late high school or college, but I do remember when I was much younger there being a whole.

A bunch of series of news pieces on TV about the rise of splatter movies and about how kids who were too young to be seeing these things were renting them and watching them at home, and is this good? Is this ethical? What are the parents thinking? Do they even know what their kids are watching kind of things.

And they really focused on this movie. I don’t know if it’s because it was contemporaneous at the time, or it was really popular in video at the time, or just because it was an easy target, because the Gore level in this movie is insane. So insane that it. It was released Unrated. 

Craig: I know. Which is so strange how things change over time because by today’s standards it’s silly and cute.

Like Yeah. I mean it’s just a lot of, I guess it’s just a lot of blood. They, they even went out of their way to try to use, not red blood, to use different colors and stuff to avoid the X rating. I get it. It is very violent, you know, violence. And Gore is a big part of the point. But I did see it when I was a kid.

I don’t know how, and I don’t mean little, but probably like adolescent. Wow. And I don’t remember how I got my hands on it. We pro, my dad probably just rented it for me. Didn’t think anything of it. And I remember really, really liking it. But I remember thinking it was hilarious. Yeah. So funny. 

Todd: That’s what shocked me about it when I saw it, is just, it’s a goofball movie.

Craig: Yeah. It’s really silly and it really is a showcase for. Bruce Campbell. Oh my God. He does so much physicality work in this movie. It’s crazy. I don’t think a lot of people know how difficult that is, the stuff that he’s doing right, and he does it so well. It’s so, uh, believable. I’m just so impressed with him.

Plus, he’s just got excellent comic timing. He’s got a great character face, like he does so much face work. That’s not easy either. Yeah, that’s a special talent. This is his favorite of the original trilogy, and I get why, because he really gets. To showcase his talent in this movie. 

Todd: It’s really all about him, isn’t it?

I mean, all the movies kind of are, but this one especially, he’s just front and center for almost all of it. And I think, you know, when you think about the process of making a movie, this is the thing that I, that kind of kills me, is that shot for shot gets set up. It’s not like you just run around with a camera for 10 minutes while this guy does this thing.

So not only the physicality, but you have to bring that energy. Into every shot after you’ve had a break. I couldn’t help but think as I was watching it this time because I’m so familiar with it. You know, I was, my mind was just wandering all sorts of places. I was thinking, God, he had to begin this shot.

Looking the way he does out of breath, the way he is with this same energy that he had just with the shot before, knowing that this is probably a totally different day. Right. You know, and it flows so well. Like this guy just gets punished and beaten up and paranoid and insane and it all happens within the course of a day or less, you know, in this movie.

And, uh, at night really, I guess. But the process of making this movie takes months, you know, or weeks. And, and he really brought the same energy to it the whole time. And boy does this guy get punished. 

Craig: Yeah. Well, and I, I also heard that I, I, because it was so physical, he had a physical trainer. Like on location, they were, oh, he was getting trained all the time.

Makes sense. You would have to, you would have to be in good shape to do the stuff that he does in this. You and I have talked about this briefly before. I think it was on a mini, so I think we, uh, we just kind of discussed the evil dead universe in general and, and we kind of breezed over each of the movies and I said that basically evil dead too.

Is a remake of the first one. And you got really mad and you’re like, no, it isn’t. That’s right. That’s right. It isn’t. Do you still stand by that or were you corrected? I, I stand corrected. I stand corrected, but I can see why people would think that because the stories are very similar and evil Dead too is my favorite of.

All of them, I think. But I think a large part of that is because I saw it first, and I had seen it many times before I saw the first one, and I think this one is better. I mean, it makes more, it has a bigger budget. They were able to do a lot more with it, so, so nostalgia probably plays a large part in.

Todd: Why I like this one so much, but to address that, I, I think what irritated me so much when you said that I wasn’t irritated at you, by the way, but you know, just in general, that’s not the first time I’ve heard it. A lot of people have said that to me and I’m like, look, they just needed to catch people up on the original story because it was kind of this.

Cult movie. And also they needed to simplify it, the plot a little bit. You know, the original story had all these people dead and buried in all these places, and it looks like for the sequel they wanted to go, they didn’t want that baggage of all that weighing them down. And so they just simplified the original kind of recon, I guess is what you say.

Yeah. To. Him and just his girlfriend in the cabin, which I think gives it more focus as well, because now it’s just his girlfriend kind of continuing to pop up and cause the trouble instead of, oh, he also had all these other friends and there was a certain element of destruction in the cabin that had already been there, and his friends were also kind of buried or dropped and left in other places.

And so, you know, this just like allowed them to go in a different direction with the story. By starting from a simpler base. It was interesting. As I read later, it seems like, uh, there was another reason for that as well, 

Craig: right? Just it was because of rights, right? Like I think that’s another reason why I was maybe initially a little bit confused and others may have been too because it feels like a remake in that it’s not footage from the first movie.

Right. It’s total reshoots. Uh, because I guess they had the right to the characters and things, but they didn’t have Right. To film from the original, so they had to reshoot everything. So it feels like a remake for the first seven minutes. It’s a great first seven minutes. I love it. Yeah, it’s a long flashback, 

Todd: I 

Craig: guess you could say.

Todd: It doesn’t, yeah. But the, it doesn’t call itself a flashback, so you’re right. It feels like a, the movie starting, 

Craig: but, but it then does continue. It eventually leads up to where the first. Movie ends, which is the evil presence, whatever it is, like, you know, smashing into ash or going into him or something, and that’s where it picks up.

But in, in between there, there’s also that great Linda footage. Like that’s some of, that’s one of my very favorite scenes is in the still, like the. The ketchup, like, 

Todd: no, you’re right. And, and I mean, it’s an interesting choice, right? Like you could have just made this like flashback, you know, you could have said, you could have shot it new, of course, new footage.

But it could have been, you know, yesterday I had the most terrible day, you know, my girlfriend and I went to the cabin and did this thing, and, you know, but he really chose to do it as, as the movie’s kind of starting and take time. With it. Like really take time with it. And like you said, it does lead to some real iconic moments.

I love that bit where he’s got her head in the vice and they’re going back and forth. 

Craig: I love, I love the, I assume stop motion Corpse Ballet. Oh my God. She’s. When she’s all decayed, 

Todd: she does a whole ballet dance routine. They spent some money on that. I mean, I, it’s certainly, it’s stop motion, but it, it’s hilarious.

Craig: Yeah. And the effects, the effects are, you know, all practical, everything. Gosh, it’s, it’s diff, it’s weird to look back at it. From so many decades away removed because I, I just remember thinking it was so cool back then. Like now, I think unless you were talking to a young person who was like a horror fanatic or a horror nerd, if you’re just talking about your regular young person today, you would show them this and they would think it was awful.

Like they would just think it was, you know what I, yeah, because you think so. I do just because it, it’s not smooth, shiny, and clean. It’s, it, it, it shows, 

Todd: shows its, its its age. It shows cracks a little bit. You Yeah, that’s, 

Craig: yeah. And, and when I was a kid and even as a young adult, I didn’t care. I un, I understand the context of the time and I like it and I appreciate the aesthetic and I miss it.

Sometimes I just don’t know if it would be appealing to modern audiences and I don’t know, you know, they’re still making them. I think there are two more. Coming out sometime. Yeah. And they’re taking a more modern approach to it. There are definitely like callbacks, evil Dead Rice had tons of callbacks to both Evil Dead and Evil Dead too.

And they were fun, but it’s taking a much darker, more modern approach. And this is, it’s definitely of its time. You know what I mean? Well, are you talking 

Todd: about the story? Are you talking about like the, the tone? No, I’m talking about the effects. I’m talking about Oh, okay. Just the effects. No, yeah, the effects.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. Like, it’s, it’s definitely, I mean, it’s really impressive actually the amount of money that probably went into this in order to, to get the effects that they did for the time. I think that the effects show their age the most when they’re putting together these mat scenes, you know, like that scene where he’s standing at the bridge and the bridge is broken.

Yeah. You know, you can tell. Clearly that’s a composite of like three or four different pieces. And it’s not, some of the matte painting is a little cartoony, you know, so like, things like that, things like the stop motion, where the stop motion is combined with the live action. It has that. Yeah. Look, uh, but you know, also, I, I would be curious to know how people watch that today because, uh, obviously I don’t have the, a proper perspective on it.

’cause I grew up with movies like this. Right. Like you said, we have more tolerance for it. Well, an appreciation for it. I like it. Oh yeah. Like just the artistry of it. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. But, but I can go back and watch like an old king. I, I still love the original King Kong. I think it’s That’s fair. It’s lovely, you know, and, and I think I’m able to put it in its place.

So I would hope that maybe not young kids who would just be more puzzled than anything, but, uh, yeah. Older adults, you know, who they might appreciate this a little bit more, and young kids probably shouldn’t be seeing this anyway. So the other thing that, you know, you kind of touched on. Is that you said that the more modern movies take a more modern and kind of more scary approach, and that’s fair.

You know, I think that back then Bruce Campbell and Sam Ramey were doing something kind of new. Not that horror comedies didn’t exist, but just this mad cap silliness combined with this extreme violence and gore. It tones down. I mean, I still think the movie’s scary, but it’s not. Scary. Scary. You know?

It’s not like, oh my God, what’s gonna happen to them? I hope they don’t die. It’s just like, God, these images are freaky. God, this is a crazy situation. You know? Yeah. Guy gets pulled into the cellar and then blood just like fountains of blood comes spraying out. You know, there’s, you can kind of put yourself in that role and be like, oh, that’s a horrible thing that happened to him.

But also like there’s so much silliness that’s come before that. It’s toned down a little bit, and I feel like this movie strikes a great. Balance at that. And we’ve seen a lot of movies since then that have taken that and run with it. You know, Shauna The Dead is the obvious example. Oh, there have been tons.

Yeah. Oh, oh yeah. I mean, I was, that’s just the first one on the top of my head, but there have been, there have been hundreds of them since, but I’m not sure if there were too many before this. There were a lot of spoofs. Yeah, right. Not too much that was going quite this direction, quite this extreme. I don’t know, am I wrong?

Craig: No, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t really know the history, but I don’t, this felt different and fun. I mean, there were other gory splatter movies, but you’re right, it was a different balance. I think it leaned heavier into the silliness, and I like the silliness. Maybe I’ve just seen it. Maybe I’m too familiar with it to say that.

I think that it’s scary, but I just feel like my experience with it from beginning to now is it’s. It’s just so fun. Like, yeah, I’m not scared. Like this is fun. This is like the effects, like the monsters and, and the deadites. Like they are scary looking. They are very scary looking and I love them and I love the design and I love the, you know, prosthetics and all of that stuff.

I think it’s amazing and it, I guess. I don’t know. Well, I guess it’s scary to, to me it’s just more like, oh, look at 

Clip: that. Oh, look at that. Yeah. 

Todd: No, I agree. That’s fair. And it also, it just moves too fast to be scary. You know? There’s very little suspense in here. Right. I think this is why I, if you ask me, which is my favorite, I still tend to go back to the original, because the original had its moments of silliness, but it was definitely intended to be a little more scary.

Right, right. And I think I liked that, that it, it’s a little grittier, you know, because it was more of a low budget film and there’s just darkness and there’s moments of tension where you don’t know what’s going on. But it does establish the deadites as a bit playful, and that just gets amped up to the hundredth degree in this movie.

So it doesn’t, there’s a definite contrast in between the original and this one, even though they have that same through line of being. Quite silly at times. This one just embraces that side of it. And then, and then army of darkness, I feel is the ultimate culmination army of darkness is just kind of a wacky comedy, and I find it not scary at all.

So, yeah, you know, it’s almost like a trajectory that these three movies went in, which makes it more interesting than, like you said now they’re kind of, it’s like they crested the hill and now they’re kind of turning around and going back down into scary territory. 

Craig: It’s funny ’cause I do think that army of darkness is really funny too, but I think it’s scarier than this one.

Yeah. I think that that dead eye that he has to fight down. In that pit. Yeah. Is really scary. I think the, the big evil demony ash is hilarious, but kind of scary. And then his girlfriend, when she becomes a dead eye is scary. I think those things, I think those things are, I mean, they’re all hilarious and played for comedy too, but I actually think those are scarier than this.

But whatever. There’s great, great stuff in this. I don’t, I don’t really know how to co, you know, how do you talk about the plot? Because we’ve, we’ve built up to the point where the first movie ends where. We, at the end of the first movie, we don’t know what happens to him, but as we see now, he becomes possessed for a little bit, right?

Yep, yep. But then the sun rises and drives the evil away, which is interesting because I don’t think that’s ever the case again. I don’t think, I don’t think the sunlight ever drives the deadites away. In the rest of the franchise. But no, whatever it does here, 

Todd: that’s a powerful scene because you know where they ended it at the first one.

You know, you don’t really know what happens. It’s just kind of one of those endings where it just, whoa, probably everybody died. Yeah. But here they had to contend with that in order to make it a direct continuation of the original. And I guess that that made sense. I remember that scene talking about scary, that scene where he emerges immediately from the water with the dead eye face.

I think that’s scary. 

Craig: Yeah, it is. It is. You’re right. Great, great prosthetic mask and God, you know, the, the fogged out contact lenses and oh yeah. Uh, it looks fantastic. All, all of the practical effects and makeup effects look. They’re so good. Are there’s a reason. There are, there are many reasons that this movie is a classic oc cult classic.

It’s, it’s fantastic. 

Todd: Well, and you know, this isn’t the first time that Ash becomes a dead eye for a while. You know, it’s interesting that he kind of has to fight that too. And he just lucks out better than everybody else, for some reason or another, Uhhuh because later in the movie, he becomes a dead eye as well.

And, and does he in the army of darkness? I don’t, I don’t think so. I think he’s, I know an 

Craig: army of darkness. I think he like grows a second head or maybe splits into two different ashes, I think. I don’t remember. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen that one too. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. But there’s, you know, I, I, I just, I took my notes on my phone just ’cause I didn’t wanna get my laptop out and so I just have this big long list and I’m like, house, face.

Clip: Yeah. 

Craig: And.

Todd: Like, oh, God. So classic. 

Craig: Honestly, like every, yeah, every scene I’m like, oh yeah, this classic scene like, oh, oh, the, the bridge out scene that you already talked about and Uhhuh. Yeah. 

Todd: It’s all, it’s all so good. I see it gets, at that point, doesn’t he come back to the cabin and he’s just becomes tormented for a while?

I mean, this is the Bruce Campbell show for the next, what, half hour, I suppose? 20 minutes? Yeah. Where now we’ve gotten through the whole prequel type stuff and you know, he’s not a dead eye anymore. He comes back into the cabin, there’s the join us bit and then. It’s just a series of him just being tormented and slowly going crazy.

I mean, why would this guy go back to the cabin? I guess it’s the only place he can find shelter because it’s daytime. I guess it’s daytime now, but then it, it very quickly becomes night again after he left the bridge. But he looks at himself in the mirror and that’s a cool sequence where he leaps out at himself and the mirror ash strangles the real ash, and then we turn to him being strangled.

And then the camera pulls out. And he’s got his own hands around his neck. And then he’s kind of doing that classic gag with the mirror where he looks at the mirror and then looks away and then looks back at the mirror again. And, yeah. And then isn’t that just about the time when the house just starts laughing at him?

I mean, at this time, you know, he’s just going through a lot of physical comedy and crazy stuff happening where you’re not sure what’s gonna happen. 

Craig: There’s the whole thing with Linda. Linda comes back and does her dance, and he has to fight her for a while, and that. They end up in the work shed and there’s her head in the vice and all, most of this is happening to him, like you said, but we also get filled in with this other little side story periodically.

Apparently the people who lived in this cabin, it was an older scientist and his wife, or they don’t live there, but they’re, it’s their cabin. They found the necronomicon. And their daughter or something was with them, their adult daughter, and th they brought it to the cabin so he could study it or whatever.

But he read it aloud and he recorded it. That’s how. The evil came. We heard the recording in the first movie. I don’t remember if we got all that backstory, but anyway, the point is we see that the daughter and her boyfriend, fiance, I don’t know who cares, blonde guy, arrive and she’s got new pages and then the stuff happens with Linda and the Mirror and and yes, I thought that was a great part.

With the two of them fighting one another, the two hymns or whatever. And then we come back to the girl with the pages and her boyfriend and they get to the broken down bridge, I think, and they find tow truck driver and his girlfriend Bobby Jo. Yeah. There I was just waiting. I was just waiting to get to them because I remembered they were in it and I couldn’t wait to get to them.

And. They’re hilarious. 

Todd: Oh 

Craig: my God. I think his name is Randy is his name. I don’t remember. 

Todd: I never really quite remembered his name. Jake, the tow truck driver? Yeah. Yeah. I think his name was Jake. Yeah. Okay. Whatever. Is it am am I wrong? Was he the bad guy and intruder. He was right. I don’t know. I think he was, I don’t 

Craig: know.

I’ve 

Todd: seen that movie exactly once when we did it like 10 years ago. Yeah. I think he’s the one who, I just love this store. Oh, that’s funny. Intruder, which was also written by, co-written by Scott Spiegel actually. 

Craig: Oh yeah, that’s right. I knew that. Yeah, so they’re trying to make their way to the cabin.

Meanwhile, Ash is beating himself up, how his hand got possessed because. He stuck it in a ghost? 

Todd: No, I think his hand got possessed because Linda bit him there. Right. Okay. Well yeah, but then there was that whole part ’cause he’s fighting the Linda Head for a while. 

Craig: Yeah. There was that whole part though, where there was like a rocking chair moving on its own and he reached up and he like put his hand in it and then he reacted like, oh, right.

I didn’t know if that had anything to do with it. 

Todd: I always imagined it was, uh, Linda’s ’cause He goes through that extended hilarious sequence where Linda’s just clamped onto his right hand and he, she won’t let go. And he’s like slamming her head against everything, going outside, slamming it against the, you know, the stuff before he ends up getting it in the vice.

Right. 

Craig: Yes. All, all very funny, all physical comedy as is when his hand does become possessed. This is his work here with the hand. Oh my God. Is insane. So good. So good to make it look believably as though the hand has a will of its own is amazing. And he does like, I totally believe that he’s fighting.

Yeah. This hand. 

Todd: Ugh. So good. It’s so good. And apparently he, this one scene in the kitchen where he’s smashing plates on his head and going all over the place, it’s kind of a one shot thing. He improvised all that and REI ended up using the first take, like that’s how good this guy is with his physicality.

I especially love that bit where he’s knocked out on the floor uhhuh, and the hand wakes up and turns over and the hand can see apparently, and the hand can see this knife. And what a great sequence of shots. And this is classic Ramey where he uses all these interesting camera angles to. Tell this, this sequence very well and interesting, and this hand manages to pull a knocked out unconscious ash across the floor almost to the knife.

Mm-hmm. The butcher knife, when he suddenly wakes up and stabs at himself, it’s like stabs his own hand into the, into the floor so that it stopped and he turns and he says to it.

Craig: Because the hands does like laugh and chirp and make noises. It’s, it’s really funny. Yeah. That shot of his fingers pulling his whole body. Uh, I love that. That’s insane. And then he, he has to, he saws off his hand with the chainsaw and puts it under a bucket and puts a stack of books, the top one being a farewell to arms on the top of it.

Hilarious. 

Todd: This is your new home. 

Craig: Hilarious. 

Todd: Sliding across the floor behind him. I mean, it’s a gag you can see coming from a mile away. It’s so hilarious. 

Craig: Oh, and they have so much fun. Yeah, they have so much fun with the whole hand bit for a, a while now, and then it, and then it keeps coming back later. 

Todd: The hand gets loose and goes nuts.

And now he’s got a shotgun and he’s like trying to bla it’s Looney Tunes, you know, the hand goes into like, yes. Mouse holes in the wall for God’s sake, right? And he’s trying to shoot it through the wall, and when he finally blasts, he blasts one hole and some blood starts dripping out of it. He thinks he’s got it, but it’s just becomes a fountain of blood coming out at him.

This is just like typical Bruce Campbell torture. Any excuse that they could get to blast blood in his face throughout all these movies they’ve used. I read, I Got The Evil Dead Companion. It’s a really great book if you’re into these movies. Mm-hmm. And I, I don’t have it on me, but I had read it cover to cover several times years ago, and I do remember them talking ’cause it’s a lot of interview back and forth between them and these guys who worked on these movies.

Sam Ramey, Bruce Campbell, Bob Tapert, because they grew up together. They’re really playful with each other and they kind of like torturing. Bruce Campbell in these movies and secretly off camera, they really enjoyed putting him in these moments and seeing, seeing him deal with all the literal stuff they were throwing at him.

And he almo, he felt like he was drowning in this sequence, though. I was gonna say 

Craig: it sounded awful. Yeah, it Oh yeah. Sounded like being waterboarded because they, you know, he was laying on the floor and they shot it at a 90 degree angle or whatever, so it appeared that he was standing up and they just dumped all this karo syrup.

Stuff on him. And God, it sounds that would be tor, it’d 

Todd: be tortured. It does sound horrible. I mean, it’s kind of the, it was the classic nightmare on Elm Street. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah. 

Todd: Move too as well. Right. But there wa a nightmare on Elm Street. There wasn’t a person’s face at the other end of that. Uh, right, right. 

Craig: It look, it looks great.

Yeah. Don’t get me me wrong at all. It looks, it looks amazing. It looks fantastic. And then that’s when the house started laughing at him. And I, oh. For some reason, for some reason, that image, the image of that thing on the wall, taxidermied deer head, laughing at him is seared in my mind. Oh yeah. And I find it both.

Horrifying and hilarious. Yeah, it’s comical. I mean, the laughing, it’s not like sinister laughing, it’s like cartoon cackling and everything. The books on the shelves, the dishes on the table are laughing at him and it is just this cacophony of laughter that’s, and he’s laughing with it, but it’s driving him crazy and he does a great job of playing crazy.

So you talked before about how his performance would’ve required so many shots because the angle. On that scene changes every second. Yeah. And it’s shot from a bazillion different wonky angles, and he’s looking directly up into camera, or it’s shooting from below or from the side. Like I can’t imagine the technicality behind putting something like that together at choreographing something like that.

Really cool. 

Todd: But at the end of all this, you know, he’s, he’s been shooting at the hand. We don’t really know what happened to the hand. Maybe he shot him, maybe he didn’t, but he swings around and he blasts at the door because at it’s at this point that the rest of the party come and show up and right. By this time, I think, God, the movie’s gotta be half over by now because so much has happened.

It’s just felt really long. Not in a bad way, but just like, you know, there’s just so much stuff. I think we’re only 40 minutes in. To this hour and a half long movie. We’re, we’re not even halfway done by the time these guys show up. So they show up at the door and it’s what this couple, she, her father was the one, right?

Did you already say that? Yeah. Her fa Yeah, her father was the one. So they show up to the party and. And they see him and at some point they just, he he shot at them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they subdue him. Yeah. They subdue him. Yeah. And, and dump him in the cellar. 

Craig: Yeah. They beat the crap out of him and, and dump him in the cellar.

This poor guy. Right. His 

Todd: rescuers come and Yeah, 

Clip: I know. 

Todd: And he gets beat up and thrown in the cellar, which it turns out is the last place you wanna be in this house, which is 

Craig: hilarious. This is so funny because they, she immediately like, turns on the tape recorder and it, the dad starts talking again and she’s like, listen, it’s the voice of my father.

And then it, it starts telling the story of how he read the thing and his wife changed and she tried to kill him. And he’s like, it’s 

Clip: now October 1st, 4:33 PM. Henrietta is dead. I could not bring myself to dismember, her co-ops, but I dragged her down the steps and.

I buried her in the cellar. 

Craig: Bruce Campbell, Bruce Campbell hearing all of this in the basement, and of course immediately Henrietta is the mom. And I like all of these movies. I like all of the monsters. Henrietta is my favorite. Oh God. Of all of the evil dead deadites. She’s so disgusting. Yeah, and she’s played by.

The other Ramey brother, Ted. Ted, 

Clip: mm-hmm. 

Craig: Yeah. In a huge. Like rubber prosthetic suit. That’s so gross. And apparently that also was a nightmare for him. Like I, I guess it was a big heat wave while they were shooting it. And I don’t know, people on set, whoever it was, had to like drain the sweat out of the suit between takes like into.

Styrofoam cups and stuff. 

Todd: Gross. So nasty. Well then they shot this movie on a sound, you know, the original was actually shot pretty much on location. Just two locations, the actual cabin and um, I think it was maybe even Sam Rainey’s basement or something for the other bit. But, uh, this one was shot. On, uh, in a junior high school gymnasium.

And they deliberately did that because Dino de Laurenti, who ended up financing the film, had offered a studio of his, but they didn’t wanna be too close to him. They were afraid that they would get studio interference. So they ended up way back over in North Carolina, I think, doing this. 

Craig: Yeah, I think in the same town where the best little house in Texas was filmed.

Todd: Oh, is that right? Something like that. 

Craig: Oh, maybe it wasn’t Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. Maybe it was. No, it wasn’t. It was The Color Purple, which is another one of my favorite movies. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I guess one of the farmhouses that featured prominently in that movie was kind of their headquarters.

That was interesting. Yeah, 

Clip: for 

Todd: sure. I, I, I can just imagine, you know, how much easier it would be to shoot this movie when you’ve constructed a set for it. Right. You know, and you have all this. The, the original was a nightmare to shoot for everybody, and I think this, this shoot went a lot more smoothly just because of it, because of that alone.

But you’re still inside this gymnasium. You got this heat wave going on. Whereas I think they were dealing with freezing cold temperatures in the, in the original one. This one was quite the opposite with the heat 

Craig: and poor Ted Ramey in that big, horrible suit. And he’s great. He’s, he’s taunting and disgusting and threatening ’cause he’s.

She, Henrietta is huge and I don’t know, they get him out just in time. She’s reaching out from the cellar. It’s the, the, it’s a door in the floor cellar, like it lifts up and they can chain it, but she’s like reaching out and to get her to go back down there, I think somebody jumps on it and it kind of squashes her head and her eyeball pops out and goes into Bobby Joe’s mouth.

Bobby Joe is the truck 

Todd: driver’s girlfriend. Oh my God. Now, you know it’s funny. I expected that to have an effect on her. I thought, oh, she swallowed this thing. Now she’s gonna be the next person to turn me too. And it doesn’t at all. She just swallowed this thing’s eyeball. It’s gross. And this head of Henrietta’s by now has morphed into something else, right?

It’s, it’s big and it’s got these huge teeth eventually, like she’s got this extendable neck. Henrietta transforms quite a bit. Back and forth from this, this big rubber prosthetic suit. And it’s a huge combination throughout the movie of Stop motion and puppetry and Whew. She is a character and uh, she’s the most relentless one in this whole thing.

She just won’t die 

Craig: and she distracts them while. Blonde boyfriend guy gets possessed and then he starts, his face Makeup is great too. Oh yeah. 

Todd: The rows of teeth. 

Craig: Yeah. It’s so, it’s so good. And he like floats and talks and we get dead by Don and which is. A great tagline. 

Todd: Yep. And Henrietta, his tagline, I’ll swallow your soul.

I’ll swallow your soul. 

Craig: I love it. 

Todd: Every horror fan knows these 

Craig: Ash. I think Ax is the blonde guy dead I, and gets like fluorescent green blood sprayed all over him. Mm-hmm. And then there’s a scene that I had completely forgotten about and I thought it was such a cool scene where it’s just. Sharp, tight closeups on the character’s faces, and it keeps shooting from different angles, but it’s still on their faces and their heads are all very close together and the house starts messing with them.

With sound. Yeah. Like really loud sounds. And every time there’s a new sound, it’s coming from a different space. And we know that because all of their heads move. Quickly in perfect unison. 

Clip: Mm. Ah, 

Craig: I just thought that was such a cool scene to get the time. I, I would be so interested to know how they got the timing of that.

Like, were they really just reacting to sounds? Was it cor I I can only assume that they at least knew, you know, it’s gonna be. Left, right down, up, 

Todd: left, left. You know, like, yeah, well, they’re probably like off camera instruction. Shout, shouted out at them. 3, 2, 1, down, 3, 2, 1. Right. Maybe something like that. 

Craig: I was just really impressed by how in sync it was.

It felt like they were all genuinely reacting to something scary and crazy that was going on. 

Todd: That’s a good point because, you know, it really just emphasizes how Ramey had a vision for this. You cannot put together something like this, this madcap just by improvising everything and running around and trying out different things.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that, you know, you have, of course you have a ideas on set in the editing room. You find out this works, this doesn’t, oh we, there’s this happy accident that we can put these two shots together. Or, you know, something happened here we weren’t expecting, but we can kind of use that.

But ultimately. This script that Spiegel put together didn’t have this degree of detail in it. You know, this visual stuff, like they stand there and the house makes noises. You know, it was probably what’s in the script, right? But you’ve gotta flesh all that out in your head. You have to figure out how to shoot it.

And this is, this guy’s. Third movie at this point. Mm-hmm. You know, and he’s all very self-taught. Just growing up, making these super eights, I, I shouldn’t say, I don’t think he gets enough credit. I think Ramey gets all the credit for being this innovative filmmaker who very quickly figured out. A visual style that works for him.

And it’s evident in the first movie. I remember reading in that book that people were just shocked on set. Campbell was like, it was like a different person in front of me. All of a sudden. I was just shocked at all these ideas he was coming up with. Like, we’re gonna slide the camera along on the floor.

Clip: Mm-hmm. You know, 

Todd: we’re gonna do this, we’re gonna do that. He’s like, man, the creativity coming outta this dude that he grew up with, you know, was shocking even to him. So. All these little things, like you mentioned, they might not seem big, but they’re hard to pull off. You have to have a real vision and idea for it in order to make it happen.

Craig: Right. You one could argue that he kind of throws everything but the kitchen sink in the movie too. ’cause then there’s a scene where, I guess it’s the ghost of. The science 

Clip: dad. 

Craig: Yeah. Shows up and he looks like Pazuzu. Yes. From The Exorcist. He looks exactly like Pazuzu and he talks to her and I still don’t know if that was really supposed to be her dad.

Right. Or if it was just the house messing with them. But he’s like, 

Clip: save my soul. 

Todd: Like I think in retrospect. It is the house messing with them because ultimately I think the house wants them to read the passages from the book. Right. Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. They think that they’re gonna save her father by reading the passages from the book, but actually ultimately that’s gonna be a bad thing for them to do.

It always is actually, you don’t read out loud from the necronomicon. That is the one thing that all of us should take away from all these movies. 

Craig: It’s a cautionary tale. Yeah, and it’s a hilarious through line because they should know after the first movie, never do it. And then Ash continues to do it throughout the whole rest of the of his story.

It’s pretty funny, 

Todd: I have to admit, seeing that floating ghost face of Pazuzu. The second thing I thought of was the evil. You remember that one? 

Craig: Uh, vaguely. 

Todd: Those people are in that big, that big mansion. And, uh, suddenly there’s these like classic ghostly characters walking around it. It’s a little 

Craig: vaguely.

She runs out well. Yeah. Uh, well she runs out. Yeah. Uh, uh, Bobby Jo, the hand reappears, you know, after that sound. I, I think it’s after that sound scene. They’re all just kind of standing there in shock or, or after the ghost scene, I guess. And she says, truck driver, you’re. Holding my hand too tight. And he’s like, I’m not holding your hand.

And she looks down and it’s the evil ash hand. Is it? 

Todd: Yeah, because it doesn’t look like his, it’s a little like the stump is a little longer. I thought either they, the prosthetics not the same, or did he chop off one of Henrietta’s hands at some point? Oh, has he yet? He does. Eventually. I mean, there was so much going on there.

I’m not quite sure, but the arm, it almost looks like a half an arm, more than a hand. I don’t know. Yeah, I think 

Craig: it was supposed to be his hand because Henrietta is still around. She’s still in the cell. She is. I don’t think she’s gotten chopped up yet. She does eventually. I think it’s his hand anyway, whatever.

It doesn’t matter. The lights go out for a second and she, Bobby Jo is so scared by this that she runs into the woods and I was nervous about this part. Right, ’cause of the original. Well, yeah, and because whenever I think of it in my head, it’s called the tree rape scene. Yeah, and the first thing that I noticed was that, wait a minute, she’s wearing pants and I don’t remember them like ripping her clothes off.

Maybe they do. I don’t know. I was just remembering the similar scene from the first one, which is much darker and I. Prefer this one. I, yeah. The, the one, the one in the original is a little much for me, 

Todd: it’s proba. I think everybody feels like that’s a bit of a problematic scene, uh, in, in an otherwise, in a series that doesn’t tend to go there, right?

Like we don’t, there’s generally no nudity in these movies. There’s not a lot of those trappings of horror that you expect with the nude, nude scenes and, uh, some, some serious brutality and sexual stuff getting thrown in. And so that tree, the tree thing from the original. Always felt, feels a little off.

Craig: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s fine. I’m, I’m not offended by it or anything. It’s just, oh, yeah. I don’t care for it. 

Todd: Well, it just feels off. Yeah, 

Craig: yeah, yeah. The girl, I don’t know her name, the daughter reads from something, her dad’s notes or something, and reads that the first, there are two passages and the first passage makes a physical manifestation of the evil or whatever.

And Ash is like, well, that’s, let’s not do that then. But then the second one opens a portal that’ll. Take it away. I don’t know. Yeah, it’ll, it just opens a portal. I don’t know, something like that. So they’ve got these pages that they can read or whatever, but Randy is worried about Randy, I don’t know if that’s his name.

Truck driver is, the Jake truck driver is worried about Bobby Joe, and so he makes them go outside to look for her, and they really just basically. Get outside and he stands out there shouting her name and we see the, you know, evil point of view fast through the woods coming at them. And right before it gets them he knocks out ash.

’cause I, Ash is trying to get him to shut up or something and he pushes the woman to the ground and you think that the evil’s gonna hit him and something happens. ’cause that’s what it looks like’s gonna happen. But just as it should get to him, everything just goes quiet and he’s just standing there for a second until dead eye ash pops up behind him.

Yeah. Ugh. And then he chases them around the cabin for a while. 

Todd: I mean, there’s a lot that goes on. I mean, I think in the original, and there just don’t seem to be reasons why people get possessed anymore. Like what? What is the thing? Like I don’t know how the boyfriend suddenly got possessed except the dead ice just decided he was next.

Yeah. The same thing with evil ash. There’s really no inciting incident where you, that you can point to that’s like, okay, now Ash is gonna turn evil. He just does, unless I missed something. Did I? I don’t think so. 

Craig: Well, I don’t know. I’m trying to think about how they carry the mythology moving forward.

’cause I do. I don’t think like you have to die to become one of them or anything. 

Todd: No, no. Because even in the first one, that girl, you know, when they’re playing cards, when they’re flipping the cards, the one girl suddenly is possessed. I guess 

Craig: it’s just kind of, if they get a hold of you, I don’t know. Yeah, I guess.

I don’t know. There’s, yeah, like he’s, so, he’s chasing them around the cabin. She has a huge bone dagger from somewhere. I, I missed where that came from. Where did, from, did that come 

Todd: from? It was on the table maybe. I mean, it was a big pa part of the original, but, uh, this one is, it’s retooled in this one as well.

It looks more like a spine than a dagger. 

Craig: Yeah. And it just shows up and she accidentally stabs Randy through the chest with it, and then slams his body in the door. He’s still alive. After, I mean it, it goes, it’s poor guy, a good foot into his. Chest, but he’s okay. Wait, he can’t breathe, but he’s all right.

But she drags him into the house and Henrietta in a great jump scare, I thought, pops up her cellar door and grabs him and pulls him down into the cellar and the girl tries to grab his legs and pull him out. But blood just starts spraying out of the whole thing. 

Todd: It’s a great 

Craig: scene. 

Todd: It is a great scene.

Poor, I know you keep calling him Randy. Poor Jake. This guy, this guy really got a bum deal in this whole thing. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: But then I think Bruce shows back up again and he’s normal and I just love this 

Craig: bit. ’cause Well, the way he, I was just gonna say the way that he, so he attacks her, the evil ash comes in and attacks her and then this is, it’s corny, but I don’t care.

I, I, I, like I said, I like the silliness. He sees Linda’s necklace. That he had given her. Right. And it’s, it’s, it seems like it’s kind of implied. And this happens again, I think in army of darkness and later, sometimes something can inspire him, the good ash in him to like fight his way out. Right. And that kind of seems like that’s what happened here.

I think that there was a deleted scene where we saw more of that, like his face transformation going back, but it’s cut. Gone forever. So anyway, 

Todd: you’re right. He’s back. He’s good now. He’s good now, but he’s gotta convince her. And I don’t blame her. You know, she’s freaking out. And I just, I, I think there’s, this scene is so funny because he’s, he’s just yelling at her.

Clip: No, no. Wait,

listen to me. I’m all right. Now that thing is gone.

Damn it. I said I was alright. Are you listening to me? Do you hear what I’m saying? I’m all right. 

Todd: And he almost sounds crazy when he is yelling it. I, I don’t know if I would believe him either if I were her, but she does. It’s just she attacks him like two or three times though. It’s pretty funny. Yeah.

Wouldn’t you? Oh, yeah, absolutely. She’s scared. It’s very funny. He’s frustrated. It’s so funny how the dead eyes just turn people on each other and create these situations. I, I love it. I love it 

Craig: when he, yeah, when he finally does convince her, she says, we need the pages from the seller because. Randy threw him down there and uh, and so Ash goes out to the shed or whatever and clamps the chainsaw to his arm and arms himself with the big shotgun and yeah.

You know, close up on his face. Groovy. Oh, iconic. It’s great. It’s fantastic. And he goes down into the cellar and he fights Henrietta, and he gets the pages and then Henrietta gets out and she attacks her daughter and she turns into that weird. Snake bird thing. Yep, yep. And Ash cuts her up. And this is the part, like he chops up her, he chops her head off, but he also, I think, chops off her arms and legs, like limbs are flying.

Todd: It’s a huge mess. This whole place is a mess. By this time. Oh, and then, and then at the end, like he’s got henrietta’s head is still talking on the ground. I’ll swallow your soul, I’ll swallow your soul. And he puts his head on it, aims the gun, and it’s like, swallow this. I love it. It’s so great. So good.

It’s such a good movie. But at that point, this is where finally Ash has transformed into badass ash, 

Craig: right? 

Todd: As soon as he blasts her head, there’s just this scene that pulls back and it’s looking up at him and he’s got his no nonsense face and a hero pose, and you’re like, okay, this guy is new. Yeah, he’s in control now.

Or at least he thinks he is. 

Craig: Right. Well, he’s had a little bit of experience. Yeah, he’s, he’s good, um, at this, but at this point, a tree that has uprooted itself from the front yard now attacks the cabin. It’s 

Todd: so crazy. 

Craig: It’s crazy, but it looks really good. I mean, I, it really does. I love it. It looks good. Oh my God, the exterior shots look good.

Mm-hmm. I, I, I have no idea what’s going on there. What, what do you think that is? Models a stop motion? Probably. 

Todd: Oh, man. I think some of it’s models, maybe not stop motion because it’s a little too smooth, but there might be some mixed in there. But then when you get inside, you know, they’re literally these giant arms and limbs and things coming in.

It’s big practical stuff, including that giant face that ends up showing up, right? Yeah. And the 

Craig: whole, the whole set appears to be shaking and Yeah, so the, so the girl starts reading from the passage, but then she gets attacked by her mom or somebody, I don’t know, and she’s like, I only read the first passage.

So the, uh, big evil face. Comes through the front door and it’s huge. It’s enormous. And of course, it’s all practical and real. I mean, this thing was so big that they couldn’t even take it with them when they left, like,

man, and it looks, it looks great and it’s shot. Well, I, I think he does a really good job of shooting it so that you never. See too much of it all at the same time. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. It’s a little obscured sometimes by other things, but Yeah. Right. It, it, it holds up. I think. 

Craig: I think so too. This 

Todd: is one of those things that I think holds up.

Yeah. And the camera also, he’s, he’s doing that warped thing with the, with the lens. So the image itself is kind of compressing and expanding. Mm-hmm. A little bit at from shot to shot almost. It preparing us for this whole portal thing. 

Craig: Right. Oh, it’s so 

Todd: good 

Craig: because with her dying breath. She reads the second incantation or whatever it is, and the portal opens and it’s just a big vortex.

That sucks everything in, but for some reason this is, why do the deadites start chanting? We’ve won. We’ve won. Is it because the big evil is about to eat ash? Is that, I don’t know. I didn’t, I don’t remember that bit. 

Todd: They were chant, chanting that, 

Craig: yeah, anyway, whatever. But the portal opens and it sucks the evil thing out and ash is like, woo.

That was close. And, and then the front door gets sucked away and the portal’s still a sucking and it sucks him in there. It’s still a sucking. Yeah. 

Clip: Him and his car, 

Craig: uh, gets sucked in there and they land in what appears to be. Medieval times not, yeah, the restaurant, but the actual, and he’s surrounded by nights and at first they think he’s a dead eye and they’re gonna kill him.

But then a flying dead eye flies in and they all cower in fear and he gets up and blows his head off with his shotgun. And they’re all like our hero. You know, they all start cheering for him or whatever, and he just looks around at this, you know, desert Castle is like, 

Todd: no. Yeah. Our hero who’s here to vanquish us, vanquish the deadites and save our land.

Right, right, right. I’m like, no. I think this is Sam Ramey who says that, right. Who pops his, uh, his thing up and, and cheers Maybe. I don’t know. It is, yeah, it is him. It was cool because I think when they originally. The original sequel plan was to do Evil dead, the Evil Dead, and the, and the army of darkness.

And this was mostly gonna be the medieval thing, but yeah, they didn’t really have the budget for that. And so they had to shelve that and make this a transition movie to take us into that. And I think the success of this movie then made army of darkness more likely to happen, although it didn’t happen for a little while, 

Craig: for a while.

Todd: Because the careers, you know, got big, I think. Yeah. Mm-hmm. For the people involved. So yeah, I think that was a good choice though. I love this as a transition movie, and I think this movie is just wonderful. And like I said, it really sets up the badass ash because what we get in the third movie is a fully transformed cock.

Ash, and that would’ve been a jarring switch if it weren’t for what he goes through in this movie and the transformation that he, that he makes. That’s true. Yeah. So it, you know, it, it really made, I think, the third movie probably better than it would’ve been otherwise. Well, what, what more can you say?

There’s a lot more you could say about these movies, but, uh, you know, they’ve already been said. And I just love them. I, I love Evil Dead too. I can’t believe we still haven’t done the first one on this show, and, and we haven’t done Army of Darkness. We’ll eventually get to it. The series was great too. It wasn’t, I haven’t really seen it.

I, I saw one or two episodes and I thought, this is something I’m gonna want to, you know, sit down and binge and I never got around to it. 

Craig: It’s available again. It disappeared. You couldn’t stream it, you couldn’t buy it anywhere for a while, but I saw recently that it is available again somewhere. I’m sure you could find it if you wanted to, but other people out there, it is available somewhere for streaming, but no.

Yeah, I, I love this movie too. This one, especially this one is my favorite one. Nostalgia plays a big part, but even watching it again, it’s, I, I was still laughing out loud at gags and jokes that I’d seen a million times. I was still reveling in the. Fun 

Clip: of 

Craig: it. It’s just, to me, it’s just so much fun. And that of course.

I like the horror elements of it and, and that’s what brought me to the movie. But I think my favorite part of it is the humor, and specifically Bruce Campbell, but it takes a whole team to put something. Like this together. And this is a team of people who clearly respected one another, respected one another’s vision, you know, had a good time and played with one another and tried things.

And it’s just cool that they were friends and that Scott Spiegel was part of that. And that though. You know, like he, you said he did bit parts in movies all the time and he was in probably most, if not all, of Sam Rainey’s movies and worked with Ted Raey and all of the rest of them too, and, and remained friends with all of those guys.

And I remember when he passed. Seeing comments and things from, from these folks, uh, I I think that they had a genuine friendship and it’s what a gift to be able to do what you love and, and create with your friends and, and be successful and be able to watch your friends enjoy. Tremendous success. It’s really cool.

And he, he was part of something really special. 

Todd: Yeah, he really was. Thank you guys for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us online, chainsaw horror.com, or Google Two Guys and Chainsaw podcast, and you’ll find all of our socials out there. Drop us a note, let us know what your favorite movie in the Evil Dead series.

And if you’ve seen the TV show, you can also join our patron page at patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. And, uh, we have a lot of good conversations back there. We have a book club. We have access to our complete unedited episodes. We do minisodes. As Craig referenced earlier, only five bucks a month gets you access to all that’s.

Stuff, please consider joining. We, we love hearing from you. Whether you’re a patron or not. Send us your requests, please. Until next time. I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

In this episode, we pay tribute to the legendary English actor Terrance Stamp, who recently passed away, by delving into the 1968 anthology film ‘Spirits of the Dead,’ which features three segments directed by famous directors: Federico Fellini, Louis Malle, and Roger Vadim.

We covers Stamp’s prolific career, highlights from his roles in ‘Superman,’ ‘Star Wars,’ and ‘The Haunted Mansion,’ and an in-depth analysis of the film’s three distinct yet interconnected stories based on the works of Edgar Allan Poe. Strap in for a nostalgic look back at a classic film enriched with horrors, stunning star performances, and mesmerizing stylistic choices.

Episode 457, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Time for another tribute episode. We’ve only gone a couple weeks since we’ve done our last five, so great. We thought we would do another one today because the guy who died this time around really, uh, was a person that I recognized quite well and really respected and loved to see in lots of movies.

Uh, this is Terrance Stamp, an English actor who started out in London on. Stage and then very quickly moved into film. Did the collector in 1965 about a, a man who abduct a woman and brings him into her. His, his basement kind of keeps her captive, which, uh, won the canned film festival award, uh, for best actor for him.

He got a Gold Globe award for his American film debut, Billy Bud, in 1962. But I remember him from the old, uh, Superman films in the 19 78, 19 80 Superman one and Superman two. He was General Zod. And much. I mean, this guy’s been in several movies a year ever since then. He was in Star Wars episode one, young Guns and Wall Street, Disney’s the Haunted Mansion.

He always just, you know, played like villains most of the time. Usually. Yeah. And he’s this’s got this face that’s just totally recognizable. I remember him way, way, way more as an older man. Then as the younger man that we see in this film and this film that we’re doing is 1960 nine’s Spirits of the Dead.

Well, 1968, but it was released in the States in 1969. It goes by a couple other names too, because this is a joint French and Italian production and is three different segments that are directed by different. Very famous directors. Federico Fellini does one. Uh, Louis Malay does one, and Roger Vadim, and it has quite a few other stars in it too.

You’re talking Jane Fonda, Bridgette Barau, Peter Fonda’s in here a little bit. I thought this movie would be interesting enough for us to do because as far as horror movies that he’s done, we did the Company of Wolves and he was in that as well. But we’ve already done that, so we thought. Well, let’s go with this one.

And we haven’t done an older film in a while, and I know this is right up your alley, Craig. So, uh, we’re gonna talk about it today and well, I guess we could talk about the three segments. Separately, right? Like, uh, just kind of walk through each one. Right. But yeah, obviously I’d never seen this. I’d never heard of it before.

It is definitely your very classic movie from this era put together because movies like this were popular at the time. Oh, what do you call ’em? An anthology, not an, yeah, like an anthology basically. Yeah. Based loosely on tales from Edgar Allen Poe. I don’t think I’d read any of the stories. No. These three movies were based on No, none of these were familiar to me at all.

They’re not your typical Yeah, I, uh, I’d never heard of it. Orson Wells was supposed to actually direct a segment in here, and he backed out. He was gonna do one on the cast, ofdo and 

Craig: well, and there was a, another famous distinguished actor who was supposed to be in it, and I can’t remember who it was.

Peter, I, I won’t be able to think of it. It, it was in the trivia, but I think Terrence Stamp ended up replacing. Whoever it was. Hmm. I can picture the guy in my head. We’ve seen, we’ve done movies with him in it, but I just can’t think of his name. Yeah, I had never heard of it and I didn’t even know what it was and like I looked it up on IMDB and there were a couple of different movies with the same title and I wasn’t sure which was, and I was like, I kind of hope it’s not the first one and it is, 

Todd: nah.

Craig: Sorry, but at the same time I was thinking, well, it’s one of those Egg Grow Poe movies, those Old Egg Grow Poe movies. You know, we’ve done Vincent Price Egg Grow Poe or two, and those are usually, there’s usually something interesting to talk about. But like you said, I didn’t recognize any of these stories and they must be fairly loosely based because the third one seemed.

Far too modern for like I, I don’t 

Todd: know. The third one, even in the credits, it says like very loosely based on 

Craig: the Edgar 

Todd: Ground Post story or something like that. 

Craig: And that’s the one that Terrance Stamp is in Uhhuh. And of the three, that was my favorite one. I have no idea what the fuck was going on. Right.

But it was. Interesting to look at. Yeah. The other two. Yeah, like I, I think that I appreciated them more in chronological order. Like I did not like the first one at all. The only thing that I liked about the first one was seeing Jane Fonda, oh God, I have no idea how old she was in 1967, but she couldn’t, I mean, she had to have been in hurt.

Early twenties, and she’s a stunningly gorgeous woman now at 80 something. Like she looks amazing today. Yeah. Life did her right man. Oh man. Yeah, and like she had the good work done. Like she never, she was one of those women who was smart, who allowed herself to continue to age and just did some little tweaks here and there.

She didn’t like give herself a whole new rubber face that looks weird. Yeah. Um, she still looks like herself. She, she looks young for her age at 80 something. Anyway. Yeah. The point is in her early twenties, she’s just one of the most beautiful women I’ve ever seen. Like, yeah. Just, just stunningly beautiful and, and these piercing, piercing eyes and a very commanding presence.

Yes. Very strong. That, that She still has, I mean she, yeah, she, I, she seems like, because I think she is a tough bitch. Yeah. You don’t wanna mess with 

Todd: her. She had just gotten off of filming Barella the same year, I think also with the same director of this segment. So, uh, are you a Barella fan? Have you ever seen that?

I’ve never seen it. Oh, it’s so funny. Is the director, 

Craig: her husband, or had, did they just work? 

Todd: I feel like, I think at that 

Craig: time they were married. I don’t remember. There was some, I’m not sure they still are or not. I No, no, they aren’t. I think she’s been married several times since then and, and they had worked together before.

Mm-hmm. And this is the only time I believe that she ever appeared in a movie with her brother Peter, which is weird because there are no love scenes at all. But they appear to kind of be star cross lovers. Yeah. Or at least she’s, she’s interested in him and not only is he played by her brother, but he in the movie is her cousin now.

Yeah. I, I know that in, I know that in, you know, the olden days that wasn’t, you know, pose time frowned upon. In fact, it was often encouraged because it, especially in wealthy families because it kept, kept the wealth in the family. Right. But it’s also weird. I was in a, I may have told this story before. My brother-in-law, he wasn’t my brother-in-law at the time, he and my sister were dating.

He was in a directing class. He was also a theater major and their capstone for their class was, they had to direct a one act, and it was like round robin style auditioning. All of the directors were in the room, and then they fought over who they wanted, and he cast. Me and my sister in a two person show as incestuous, mentally challenged siblings, and so we were like, she was pregnant with my baby.

Oh God. At one point. He wanted us to kiss and we both just flatly said, no. Yeah,

this, this is not something that’s even on the table. Like Right, you can just let it go right now, it is not happening. I would kiss my sister on the lips in a friendly way, but I’m not gonna like kiss her in that kind of way. On stage. It’s disgusting. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: There are lies, but I don’t, like I said, there are, there are no.

Love scenes in this. There are just some like longing gazes and Totally, it’s kind of frustrating actually, but beyond that. Okay, so that’s, I I love Jane Fonda. The other thing I love about this, it, it is totally incongruous with the time period, but it’s a stylistic choice that I like. The costumes in this are amazing.

Yes. I would go to like. A gallery viewing of these costumes. They’re stunning. 

Todd: Every scene she has a different outfit on. It’s like it changes from scene to scene. It’s so wonderful. 

Craig: I was trying to explain it to Alan. I was like, it’s, it’s period. Like, I don’t know. They’re like princess and princesses and counts and stuff.

So Renaissance, I guess. I don’t know. I guess I’m not good at history. Yeah, it’s hard to know for sure, really. But yeah. And, and so the pieces are very period inspired with like big shoulder frills and like, she’ll be in big, tall, white wigs and long flowing skirts. But under that she’s always in like a bathing suit.

Like, yeah, like a, like a gold. High cut, eighties bathing suit. It’s, it’s strange, and she looks fantastic. At one point she wears what looks like a wooden breast plate that, yeah. Is very closely molded around her breast. At one point she’s riding the horse. Oh my God. She’s always riding the horse. Yes. At one point she’s riding the horse in a nude body suit and I thought she was really nude.

The only way that you could tell that she wasn’t was ’cause she didn’t have any nipples. Yeah. 

Todd: Yeah. That shocked me for a second. And damn could she ride that horse? Oh my 

Craig: God. Oh my God. So this is a story about a girl in her horse. Like it’s fricking black beauty for real. Ugh. She, we’ll get to Y and everything.

It’s a very simple premise or whatever, but this is 40 to 45 minutes of Jane Fonda riding a horse, beating a horse, talking to a horse, talking to a horse with no dubbing. So like we get to watch them have a conversation, but there’s no voice over dub. So it’s just silent for us. Dancing with the horse, playing with the horse.

Yeah. Oh my God, it is. So riding on the beach, there is so much riding on the beach. I shit you not, it’s got to be a full 15 minutes of just her and this horse. It’s crazy. 

Todd: Yeah, it it is pretty crazy. The segment is called Gerstein and she basically is, is set up to be this Countess or something, but she is in control.

And in charge and brutal. 

Craig: Well, yeah. She like. Uh, she’s in charge of her estate or whatever, and she’s got this whole posse of people and they just live a hedonistic lifestyle. Like they just lay around and all day. Yeah. Sounds great. Crazy. It was Remi. I mean, sure. I’ve never seen Caligula, but that’s, I, I, I’m aware of it and that’s kind of the vibe it gave me.

Yeah. It’s just like these fan aristocrats in their, you know, various stages of undress, like laying around on the castle floor, just. You know, drape, whoever happens to be nearby, just grab 

Todd: somebody while she wanders around amongst them. And like seductively rubs a dagger over some of their cheeks and things, and, 

Craig: and she joins in from time to time a little bit, but it’s sometimes she and a male friend will chase and rape another lady, you know, just for giggles and Yeah.

You know, it happens. Yeah, 

Todd: that, that was weird. Remember when she rides in on the, and sees that there’s a guy swinging on the gallows and she just looks across at him and 

Clip: I love this place. 

Todd: It’s beautiful even. And the, the next scene, they’ve got a kid, and I mean a child. In a noose on top of a barrel, and she and a couple of her friends are there with bows and arrows and somebody kicks the barrel out from under this kid, and they’re trying to shoot the arrow at the rope to drop the kid down while he’s swinging.

It’s a little over the top showing how sadistic she is, but it was unique and kind of cool. 

Craig: Right, and they’re doing that just for their amusement. She’s so blase about it, and she’s very, I don’t know. She’s, she’s very comfortable in her authority. Like she’s no nonsense. She does whatever she wants. What she says goes, what did you think of the giant cake?

Oh, that was weird. I don’t, I, I feel like I must have missed part of it because the first time that I saw it, it looked like it would, was almost completely eaten. They had cut. Yeah. I was like, somebody had cut down the middle of it, but it was like 20 layers. Yeah. It looks to, and just in kind of off to the side of the orgy, I guess if you get hungry, you just go grab a slab of cake, grab a slab of cake.

Todd: Somebody went through a lot of effort to bake and assemble this cake just to cut it down the middle for the orgy. It was, well, 

Craig: it was, it was like they wanted to show us how extravagant it had been. They wanted us to see how tall it was. So like it was as though it was like a 20 tiered wedding cake that somebody had sliced all the way around.

So it was just like a tower of unfrosted cake. Yeah, 

Todd: it so nuts was frosting between the lyric. It 

Craig: was, 

Todd: it was nuts. I did notice that. Yeah. Maybe there’s a metaphor there. My, my other favorite part was when she and her lady friend are sitting in the tub facing each other and do they start tweaking each other’s nipples?

Craig: Yes. Just, and their, their breasts are just below the line of the bathtub, so I. But they have their fingertips extended and they come right there. Yeah. They just, they reach out with like the pinchy fingers. 

Todd: Oh my God. 

Craig: And like Jane Fonda reaches out and pinches the other lady’s nipple. And so then the other lady reaches out and pinches hers and they just keep talking.

Gives a little twist. 

Todd: Yeah.

And there’s, and there’s narration over all this. That was, um, I guess, you know, you gotta shortcut things because. All of these, uh, segments, honestly are way more interested in style than telling a fast-paced story, 

Craig: particularly this one. Yeah. And I, this one is, and I thought it was styl. This one is stylish, almost all style.

It is. And like I almost wish I would’ve watched it with the sound off. I think I would’ve enjoyed it more because there were interesting things to look at. Like the location was amazing. I have no idea where it was, but it was like this stone castle on a cliff O overlooking the sea, and like the castle is built into the cliff and there’s all these ruins that, you know, we’re getting these huge, I guess.

Helicopter shots in that era. I mean, all of those high, high shots of the coastline and her riding the horse on the coastline and stuff. Yeah, I I, unless they had some kind of amazing crane, I don’t know. But the point is, it’s, it, it is beautiful to look at, but the storytelling is kind of disjointed and the dubbing is really bad.

Like you can tell Yeah. When they were able to record. Locally. Yeah. And because it’s, it’s, it’s perfect. Yeah. And Jane Fonda’s performance is so good in those moments. And then there are other parts which it’s clear that they couldn’t get the audio for whatever reason. I don’t know. But it was dubbed and it wasn’t dubbed well, yeah, I was impressed to learn that they filmed it, I think both in French and English.

Oh. And, and she did both. I, I, apparently she speaks French and she also did the French. Dubbing, which is cool. That’s great. But just from a technical sound perspective, it sounds awful. The, it doesn’t really match up with the video. Well, I’ve seen worse but not much. 

Todd: That would explain why the lips didn’t really even seem to match the words she was saying.

I thought maybe, you know, they changed the lines afterwards or something like that. But you’re right, in the moments when she’s speaking English, it’s perfect and in the moments when she must be speaking French, but it’s. Dubbed in English. I guess it, it’s just way off, I guess. Maybe. It’s so distracting.

Especially because there’s just so much closeup on her face. Yeah. And her mouth. She’s always had this, I don’t know, I don’t know how to describe it. Just this very distinct way of talking that is very clear. Yes. And uh, you know, and her mouth just precisely expresses the words. Yes. It’s had a good way of putting it.

She’s stunning. I just love watching her in this. She’s stunning. 

Craig: You, you could watch this just to see her uhhuh. Yeah. You should really. Again, this is my least favorite one. And like I appreciate her in this role because she really does play a badass really well. And it’s not even like a physical strength thing, it’s just a, she is so confident and anyway, she just plays that really well.

But the whole plot, she basically just runs her own little kingdom and nobody ever questions her, but on a neighboring property lives her only relative, who is this cousin who is a barren from another. Arm of the family and he disapproves of her hedonistic ways, so he doesn’t have anything to do with her and he won’t even talk to her.

And when she and her posse like pull up on his farm to like point and laugh at him, like he just totally ignores them and mm-hmm. Isn’t interested at all. But then she’s taking it. Horse ride slash stroll through the forest and she steps into a bear trap, I guess. Yeah, an animal trap. Some kind of animal trap.

And who goes to free her? Willem. Yeah. And so, yeah, this guy, and this is her brother, 

Todd: Peter Fonda, right? 

Craig: Yeah. Very famous in his own right, was riding Easy Rider on the set of. Movie. Yeah. It’s crazy to think 

Todd: about. Right? He frees her. She, you know, takes her leg out. He says something about, you know, usually when you free a wild animal, they run off or something like that.

Mm-hmm. She kinda looks away and then when she turns back around, he’s totally gone. Him and his horse are just not there. And I was like, was is this like a supernatural thing? I don’t 

Craig: know. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t think so at this point. Probably not. They meet again. They meet again. Yeah. She goes to 

Todd: this, you know, and there’s just ruins out here in the countryside and he’s sitting up feeding an owl or something in the window.

Yep. And as she rides up and gets off and, and looks at him, and then somehow her horse gets scared away and, and it takes off. And he comes down and then they have a very, very slow and long moment. And then she burns down his cottage. What was 

Craig: that all about? This, this was so stupid. She’s flirting with him and she like, it’s like I’m cold.

And he’s like, oh, sorry. And she’s like, well, where I come from, a man would offer his cloak. So he’s wearing like this big fur cloak, so he like doesn’t take it off and give it to her. He just like wraps it around her with him still in it. So he’s, they’re both in there together and she’s obviously into him and he is not into her.

And she says something suggestive and he dismisses her and leaves and she’s pissed off. So the narrator tells us. She was mad, so she saw her revenge, so her revenge. For him, rebuffing her is to burn down. Not his cottage. His stables. Right, right. And it’s a huge stables with tons of horses in it and tons of people trying to save the horses.

Horses and people alike. Burning to death in this thing. Yeah, because he rejected her advances and ultimately he is trying to free like his favorite horse, and we see the whole place just completely collapse all around and on top of him. And she’s told later that he’s died. I don’t know what she thought was going to happen.

That seemed a little excessive to me. Yeah, it was cruel because she knows that he loves. Animals. That’s his thing. Like he really loves animals, so she really went to hit him where it hurt. Bitch. I guess she just didn’t expect that he would die 

Todd: too. I guess maybe this is how she controls people, you know?

She destroys their world and makes them come back to her or something. I don’t know. 

Craig: They have established that she is, she doesn’t care about consequence, you know, with that little boy, that little boy could have easily died. She doesn’t care, you know? Yeah. It’s true. Whatever, it doesn’t matter. But then she immediately becomes fascinated with a tapestry of a big black stallion and then a big black stallion shows up.

Do you think that tapestry, like 

Todd: she just noticed it for the first time or did it appear on the wall or what’s the deal? It’s kind of weird’s. But it’s an odd scene that goes on far too long, cutting between this stallion, rushing into her castle grounds or whatever, and everybody’s trying to calm it down and it’s just going all over the place.

And she’s staring at this horse tapestry on the wall and the tapestry in her face and the horse and the people and the tapestry in her face and the horse and the people. And finally somebody comes in and tells her, Hey, there’s a horse outside that’s going crazy. Nobody can control it. He came out of the fire covered with flames.

And Gallup 

Clip: straight here. 

Todd: And who’s is he? 

Clip: No one knows. Not even the baron Wilhelm servants. No one’s ever seen him. He’s mad. No one can approach him. 

Todd: I shall. So that she goes out and sure enough, she’s able to calm it and that’s when she’s told, oh, by the way, uh, your cousin’s. Trying to save his favorite horse.

Craig: And then she goes back inside and the tapestry has burned, but only the horse part, like the horse part has just burned away. Yeah. And she tells, she tells a guy fix it, and he’s like, oh, that that can’t be fixed. And she says. You’ll do it because I said so or something like that. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Oh boy. I 

Todd: don’t know.

It’s a whole thing with the tapestry. It is. And we keep coming back to the tapestry and that poor guy making, working on the tapestry. Meanwhile, she just, I think we just see a whole lot of her getting along with the horse really, really well. Oh boy. 15 minutes of her and that horse, she is into that horse.

Craig: And I mean the, the, the movies, the, the visuals are, even though, like I said, she’s talking to the horse and we can’t hear her. Like they didn’t dub that she’s just moving her lips. And I liked. The visual storytelling of her change in appearance. She starts, I was gonna say, she starts wearing more modest clothes.

They’re still, still, they’re still very stylized, but they’re not as revealing. Right. And they’re more natural. It’s lots, lots of like leathers and furs and her hair is wild now.

Like the wildness of the, and she’s riding on the cliffs and, and all of a sudden, whereas before. You know, she was very social in her little group or whatever. Now she’s very reclusive and she’ll still pop into the orgy every once in a while, but she’s very disengaged and just laying there. Yeah, 

Todd: she’s bored with orgies now.

Craig: Yeah. But mostly she just keeps to herself, just her and the horse. Yep. And, and I was sitting there thinking in a different movie this could go. Sideways. 

Todd: Right. A lower budget exploitation film perhaps. Yeah. She is getting real close to this horse. Roger Corman would’ve had a field day with this, let’s just put it that way.

As she is playing with the horse and hanging out with the horse, the guy inside is working on the tapestry, and as it comes up, you know, he’s working from the bottom up, but the horse he’s putting together is wearing, I don’t know what horses wear spans or strappy things with. Cloth hanging off of them. I dunno.

Whatever it is, it’s colored the same way that Will hel Will Wilhelm, right? Will Willams, yeah. Her cousin. Yeah. Yeah. Her cousin’s clothes were when she met him that day that he freed her and she notices that too. ’cause it’s a bunch of flashing back and forth on that. Finally, he completes this tapestry and she looks at the eyes and they’re red and she says, oh, you gave him blood eyes?

And she says, no, they are fire. 

Craig: Huh. And that wasn’t even her. That was somebody else because she’s out on the horse. Like she takes off on the horse. A big storm rolls in and the horse freaks out. That causes fire. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I guess there was some lightning or something. Yeah, and the, and the horse. The horse freaks out and she goes out and gets the horse and she goes riding off into the sunset and the narrator tells us.

She will ride into the fire and die just like Wil Helm did or something. That’s it. The end. Oh my God. 

Todd: Yeah. I mean that was so, and this movie does a lot of that where there’s a lot of telling, not showing with a stupid narrator. I guess. It’s like being told a story and this is just the visual accompaniment to it.

Was, I don’t think there was, there wasn’t narration in the other two. Was there, there was narration in the second one, but it, but that one had a framing story where the narration made sense. Right. Oh, okay. So, or framing element to it. Anyway, I mean, I thought this segment was nice, but just like you said, I completely agree.

If you watch it without sound, it’s just as good. Yeah. It’s just all style. But it is beautiful. Uh, everything about it’s beautiful. It is pretty to look at and, uh, and Jane Fonda’s beautiful. Well, should we move on to the second one? Yep. William Wilson. I thought this one was kind of fun because it, it actually had more of a intriguing, I suppose, story to it.

Yes. It starts out with a guy running to a confessional and, uh, as he’s running down the street, he’s got like a cut on his face and his forehead and, and uh, we see these flashes of. Scene of a guy who looks a lot like him, at least dressed like him, falling from a tower and splatting down 

Craig: below. Oh my God.

It’s not a guy that looks like him. It is a terrible obvious dummy. Dummy. Yeah, of course. Yeah. It’s in the same clothes that he’s in, but it’s 1968 it I know. But it looks like they took his clothes and stuffed them with straw, 

Todd: flopped it over the edge of this tower and let it spin on the way down. Yeah, that’s true.

Craig: It looks really bad. Like the limbs are just kind of like. Flopping in the, huh? Okay. I get it. Whatever. It’s low budget. It’s fine. I get it. But boy, it does not look good. It looks really fake. Yeah, 

Todd: it does. 

Craig: You’re right. He runs into a church. I don’t know where this is, Italy, I guess probably. It seems like it looks like it.

Yeah. It’s like cobblestone streets. Stone buildings and he runs into this big church with a big tower and he runs in for confession and he grabs like the priest is getting ready to start mass and he grabs him and he forces him into the confessional. The priest is like, uh, I’m getting ready to start mass.

He’s like, no, no, I have to do confession right now. Then they get in the confessional and the guy’s like, tell me how to do this. I’m not Catholic.

That’s 

Todd: not how this works.

Wouldn’t he just kick you out? Sorry bud. This isn’t for you. Well, especially 

Craig: if he was getting ready to start a mass, he wouldn’t be like, okay, sure. I’ll just hang out with you while my parishioners sit out there like some stranger. Now, I would like to believe the priests that I’ve encountered if they met a man in distress, would help him regardless of his religious beliefs.

But. That was just so funny to me. And so the priest does stay in there with him and he’s like, I just killed a guy. Maybe he says maybe. 

Todd: Yeah. Oh no, he says it. He’s a stranger. And he says, well, maybe. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. He says, well, kind of, but not really. ’cause I’ve known him for a really long time. Uhhuh. And then it flashes back to his childhood.

Now, I agree with you of the three stories. Maybe when we talk about the third one, you can explain to me what is going on because I have no idea, and maybe I’ll appreciate it more than Uhhuh. But this one was a more traditional narrative. This one felt very a Allen Poe to me. Yes. Yes. One. Poe regularly has these first person narrators who either present themselves as a hero or a victim, and they are crazy, right?

Like they, they are the crazy villain of the story. They just are so crazy they don’t realize it. I was getting that vibe from this here. And then there’s usually some sort of creepy, supernatural, unexplainable thing going on that ultimately leads to. The narrator getting what they deserve, getting what right.

Comes to them. And so I, I liked that formula. I liked, I mean, it’s not a twist, you know, he, no, he kind of explains what’s going on from the beginning, but we are never really told exactly what’s going on. Right. A as is the case in many of post stories, like the telltale heart or whatever. I ultimately think the guy was just crazy.

Right. But I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah. Anyway, I mean, he, he’s just, well, he’s clearly a troubled kid because in school he’s like fascinated with pouring red ink all over his stuff, you know, red ink, blood, whatnot. They introduce a new kid to the class who kind of walks to the top front of the class and, and everybody teases as they comes in.

And then this kid throws some, some red ink on him, and then they’re outside torturing him with rats. That was nuts. Yeah. Just lowering him, like where are the people at this school in charge? The adults 

Craig: I know, and like they’ve stripped this kid and put him in like a, like a flower sack or something. Yeah.

Lowering him down into a, yeah. I’m sure there’s a name for what this is. ’cause I’ve seen it in a bazillion things. You know where, where somebody’s on like a crane or something and they’re just dunking them into something terrible repeatedly. In this case, it’s a barrel full of rats. And these are kids, these are probably like 10 year olds.

Yeah, it’s wild. Yeah. And so he’s torturing this kid 

Todd: and then suddenly, as the narrator tells us, another kid arrives. With the same name. So he walks up to him as he’s doing this torture and all the other kids scatter, and he tries to scare him with the rat that he does it. It’s quite a coincidence. It’s coincidence, 

Clip: but power cannot be shared.

And suddenly I had a rival. A far too friendly rival whom I knew to be my superior in every way. Yet he did not compete. He held back. He seemed to want to watch over me. I was filled with uneasy curiosity. 

Todd: And now again, we’re told but not shown that now apparently this kid and this other kid who also looked like each other.

So he says it’s doppelganger basically. Yeah. Arrivals in some way. Uh, we don’t really get a lot of that except through the narration because it jumps pretty far ahead. Pretty quickly. ’cause now he’s an adult and in medical school he is listening to a, a lecture. You know, it’s that classic, you know, the, the med.

The med school room theater. The autopsy room theater. Yeah. Whatever they, yeah. The surgery theater. You, you know all the proper words. Yeah. The surgery, theater. Yeah. This guy is going through this long spiel about how you cut into this corpse and you free up. Its, it’s, it’s lift up, its thing and its thing, and you pull its heart out, yada, yada.

Free its spirit. I don’t know what he says, but. Anyway, it’s this long thing that’s gonna be important later because the next thing we see is that William Wilson corners a woman in the alley and she’s with his buddies. And I was like, is he gonna rape this woman? I think he did. 

Craig: He must have before you 

Todd: think?

Yeah. 

Craig: Okay. I think so because there. We end up finding her tied down in that theater. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: On the table. But before that, there are a couple of really quick shots of her seemingly like, it’s like head shots, but shot upside down and like she’s writhing. I, yes. It seemed to me like she was, oh, you’re probably right.

Yeah. This, this got very sexually uncomfortable. He’s obviously a psychopath. Oh yeah. The actor who plays him at this age, and he may, I don’t think he plays him in the third age. Maybe he does, but the actor who plays him in this age has really striking blue eyes and, and, yeah. Is, is very creepy and menacing.

What’s, what surprises me about this, you know, obviously he’s psychotic, but he appears to constantly be able to surround himself with other people who are psychos because Yes. They are always perfectly willing to go along with what he’s doing. It’s as though he’s the leader, but they are totally cool with it.

Yeah. You know, raping and torturing women, I, every man in this is awful. Except for the mysterious stranger. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And he is not even a stranger like it’s supposed to be. His doppelganger. It bothered me a little bit in the beg in the first part when they were little kids and it wasn’t quite, ’cause those two little kids real, they didn’t look much alike at all.

Yeah. Yeah. They do tricks in, I don’t know, in the middle part, this med school part. The two actually do look quite a bit alike. And then in the third part, they put them both in masks, like covering up the top. So there’s a lot of creative filming to make the same 

Todd: actor, you know, look like two people. Mm.

Craig: Yeah. I mean today they would do it with computers and the same actor would play both roles, but this is fine. You get the sense of what it’s supposed to be. Right. But yeah, so I believe he assaults that woman and then she’s tied naked, completely nude to that. And it’s pre I, I was gonna say gratuitous, but it’s only because she’s fully nude and we get.

Full shots of her. A beautiful woman with a beautiful body. Yeah. But in peril tied down. And he’s like kind of like recreating the lecture that they had viewed earlier. But he’s going to cut her open. He is going to cut her heart out while she’s alive 

Todd: in front of all these people who barely look like they’re disturbed by it.

No, I think we’re supposed to see some smirks or some movement, but like not, not enough. And just as he is about to do it, who walks in? But his doppelganger, and she comes in to save her. She cuts her free. He cuts her free, but 

Craig: then she ends up getting stabbed. Anyway, I know I was confused by this. I didn’t really understand what happened because it seemed to me like she ran to a.

The bad one. Yeah. And was she confused? I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know why. And I also don’t ultimately know what happened because we see that, we see that she gets stabbed and then it immediately cuts to the next thing. Right. 

Todd: Well, it cuts to the back, to the confessional and the priest is like, did she die?

And he said, oh, I don’t know. Doesn’t really matter. Right? I need to tell you more. Yeah. And he talks about how he went into Austria, into the war and priest is even like, oh, I know. Like your regiment was well known. Apparently his regiment was well known for cruelty, I guess, 

Craig: yet for raping women. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. This is disgusting. So they’re well known for raping women. He goes into this masquerade ball he’s wearing. Well, no, he, he doesn’t even have a mask. He like punches some dude and takes his mask or something. 

Clip: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And then he goes in and he kind of starts something with a guy and the lady that the guy is with is like, don’t mess with him.

That’s William Wilson. He’s bad and the main guy, William Wilson, takes off his mask and he is like, oh, you remember me? He’s like, I’m surprised that you could remember me. There were so many of us and you were pretty busy. Quite busy. That’s disgusting. Yeah. Her own date slaps 

Todd: her when she leaves. I mean, 

Craig: a as though getting gang raped was in some way her fault.

Like what? Yeah. Well, 

Todd: I mean, she’s calling her a slut maybe. I think. 

Craig: Yes, but the implication is that. That guy in his troops gang raped this woman. 

Todd: I thought it, she just serviced them all. I, I don’t know. I don’t know what, I don’t know what he was implying, but yeah. So then he, uh, wanders into a different room.

I think it’s the same party, right. And yeah, there is Bridget Barau sitting down playing cards and smoking a cigar. 

Craig: I know her name. I know her look and I know that she was a famous movie star, but what is she famous for? She’s famous for looking beautiful. 

Todd: Yeah, she’s gorgeous. 

Craig: She was Hollywood, a big time Hollywood star that I just didn’t know if there were any big movies that I should know that she was in or she was a 

Todd: French actress, so she was in a lot of French movies and, and not even that many I think.

Think, I think she was just more known as that beautiful woman actress slash model pin up, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I’m even flipping through this right now. And, and she really kind of stopped acting shortly after about this time, like in 1973. Most of all her, her acting was done up to this point in 1968.

And, uh, from then on, I think she was just a pinup girl and already famous. 

Craig: I. Like her in this movie because she plays a woman who’s not gonna be intimidated by him. Yes. They project that by having her smoke cigars, so she has that mask because she smokes cigars. She’s, you know, like a dude and she can stand up to him.

Mm-hmm. He says, oh, you’re right. He narrates his own story. He says that he knows that her weakness is gambling, but he says, but I’ve always known how known how to play my cards. So he sits down with her and starts playing cards with her, and he’s. Cheating from the beginning. Right. Stacking the cards and sleigh of hand and stuff with the cards.

But I think initially he’s letting her win. Mm-hmm. So that he can put her in a position where she feels like she’s besting him and then later he turns it around. Yep. Kind of to humiliate her. Yep. He lets her win almost everything. Almost everything, to the point where he’s making out like bank notes or IOUs and like he offers his watch and stuff.

Right, right. Like it seems like, it seems like he’s in dire straits, but then he turns it around on her and over the course of the night wins everything back, and then it 

Todd: gets apparently to a point where she can’t pay like she owes more, I guess. Right. And so he proposes one more round. 

Clip: I propose double or nothing.

It’s your last chance. If you win, you owe me nothing, and if I lose, you still owe me nothing. But I’ll have you on me on what conditions. On my conditions as I please. 

Todd: And of course he wins ’cause he’s cheating. ’cause he’s cheating. Yeah. One of the guys who’s with him is like, alright, so I guess we’ll get outta here.

And he is like, no boys, you can stay. I want you to stay so gross. Oh man. I’m like, all these guys are assholes. And so like one of them holds her while he strips her down the back and starts whipping her. And then he turns the whip to his friend and says, your turn, Gino. And he just kind of stares at him and he’s like, oh, Gino wants something else from you.

Hey, it was so gross. But then. Once again, doppelganger walks in, he’s got a mask on this time he stops and exposes the cheat and shows some sleight of hand, which had to be, you know, closeup of a magician doing all this stuff. It was real legitimate sleigh of hand. It was quite cool. Yeah, yeah. And lets her go.

And so he gets so angry that he chases after him and there’s a big sword fight outside. He’s like, finally, I will kill you. You know, finally you have bested me once too many times, sir. And they do. They have this long sword fight and then. It’s like his doppelganger allows himself to get stabbed. 

Craig: The, the, the doppelganger wins the sword fight, but then.

The bad one plays dirty and pulls out a dagger and stabs him. It does seem like the good one should have had the opportunity to defend himself, and he kind of does just allow himself to get stabbed real quick. When he lifts 

Todd: his mask off of his face, the scars on this doppelgangers face match the cuts that the doppelganger gave him.

Oh, in the fight there was one on the forehead and one on the cheek. So it’s like he’s looking at himself and then, 

Craig: yeah, and the priest basically says. Dude, you’re gonna be okay. You’re just hallucinating and bad. Wilson is like, you’re stupid and runs out. I don’t, I don’t really know. Yeah, he, I guess he runs to the roof.

He runs up to the tower. Yeah. 

Clip: Jumps 

Craig: off and jumps off. And we see that same dummy get thrown off the tower again and the priest runs out and. Turns him over. ’cause he’s laying on his stomach. He turns him over and Yeah, he’s jumped out of the tower. But he also has that dagger in his gut. Yep. The one that he stabbed, the good one in the gut with.

Mm-hmm. And his eyes are all foggy. I don’t know what that means. Well, 

Todd: literally when he takes the mask off of this guy. His doppelganger. I’m, I’m talking about earlier when he had just killed him. Yeah. His doppelganger spoke some last words in murdering me. You murdered yourself. Oh gosh. I forgot that.

Give us some credit guys. Come on. There’s so much of that in these two, in these two segments of just, it’s, it’s overblown. But anyway, yeah, that’s the end of that. Can you parse that out? I mean, I guess it was just a creepy story about a guy in his doppelganger. Yeah. 

Craig: It was a fairly typical, it was dark. It was a fairly typical post story, and that’s kind of what I like about it.

Mm-hmm. It was simple. Felt shorter. I don’t know if it actually was any shorter, but it was more quickly paced, so it, it felt shorter. I didn’t hate it. I didn’t love it. All of these, aside from this kind of R rated nature of some of it, like the nudity and the violence and stuff like that, these felt like.

When we were in high school and you would read a post short story and then your teacher would show you some old film film adaptation of it. 

Todd: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is what they probably would’ve showed, well, they would’ve showed this in my high school. It’s a little too sexy, but, uh, yeah. Yep, yep. A little too, but, but that’s the feel of it.

Craig: Like, 

Todd: ugh, it’s old. That was exactly what was going through my head. Yes. 

Craig: Until we get to this one. Yeah. This one’s crazy. Is this the Fellini one? It sure is. Yep. Yeah, and it was giving me, I mean, I, I, I’m not a Fellini expert or anything, so I’m sure you can tell me more about his trademarks here, but this was giving me like Clockwork Orange Stanley Kubrick, surrealist.

Weird shit 

Todd: going on. It was all over the place and it was frenetic, fast paced, quick cuts, stylish out the yin yang. Looked like a lot of money went into it ’cause there is a lot of set pieces in here and a lot of hard driving music video. Yeah, honestly, it is, and it’s interesting because it’s like, you can tell this is, this is Fellini before the invention of the, of the steady cam.

He’s moving the camera around a lot, but it’s, it’s a little jerky when he does it, you know? Yes. Oh, but it’s just nuts. It’s, it’s very modern. They’re in like an airport. Well, first in, in a plain cockpit, and again, some voiceover. I don’t remember exactly what it said. Something about how I arrived and I didn’t wanna arrive, but I was going there anyway for this thing and yada, yada, yada.

It’s basically 

Craig: a, an actor. Yeah. Toby Dammit is his name, I guess. And, and that’s Terrance Stamp. In the lead in this one, and he is an actor, a famous actor, apparently on a trip to Rome and like he didn’t really wanna go, but it was a good deal. It was good money or something. Now when he gets there and he gets to the airport, first of all, everything is so stylized.

The airport kind of looks like a hellscape or it reminded me a lot of that train scene in. Dreamscape Dreamscape, 

Todd: you’re right. Where everything’s orange and kind of outside Uhhuh and Yeah. And inside it’s, it’s all bluish. And, and yeah, you’re right. Actually, I, but it’s frenetic. Like you see people praying to ala over here in the corner and you see weird people walking around in the background and people coming a going, a guy with a herd of sheep.

Yeah. Like what? And the paparazzi are shooting this guy. Like, so this, this guy, uh, now we get to Terrance Stamp. This is Terrance. Very young Terrance stamp. Very nice looking Terrance stamp, but he looks pretty ghastly. He looks like he’s Yeah. Sick. He looks terrible. Yeah. 

Craig: Like sweaty. I white face. I honestly thought, because he says something when he gets in the skirmish with the paparazzi, which I think I looked away, I wasn’t exactly sure what happened, but.

Like they meet him at the bottom of an elevator or an ex an escalator, and they’re taking pictures and then he goes up the escalator and then he’s standing at the top and he’s addressing them. And he says something about how he only dwells in the night and he’s really sensitive to the light, or something like that.

I thought he was a vampire. I do too, because he, he looks like a vampire. 

Todd: Yeah. And he looks like he’s sick and the whole time he’s going, it gets worse and worse as the whole thing goes on. But he gets ushered into this group of people who, he’s supposed to meet some folks who have promised him a Ferrari.

But these people anyway are some Italian directors and they’re talking about this movie that they want and priests. It’s funny, actually, it’s, I think that this is all meant to be pretty humorous because they usher him into this car and this woman is actually in interpreting what this guy is saying in Italian to him.

’cause he’s supposed to be, well. I mean, Terrance Stamp is British. I don’t know if he’s supposed to be British or American in this, I’m not sure. But uh, he says, uh, this is gonna be the first Catholic Western. It’s telling the story of God out in the old West. They’re going back and forth. Yeah. And like Jesus comes back as a cowboy.

It’s so crazy. But it kind of fades into the background as he’s just staring out the window and we see all this scenery go by and stuff reflected on the window. It’s just very surreal and very fast paced. But I have to say very interesting. I was really intrigued by this and I really liked the, maybe I was just wanting a change of pace from the kind of slow, stodgy second.

Craig: I felt like I was on LSD. I didn’t know what was happening, and it’s all these crazy colors and like that. This whole car ride with her translating. But them seeing all this weird stuff outside the windows and it was crazy. And then they pull up and there’s some young like gypsy woman on the street who runs around to the window and grabs the actor’s hand and reads his palm and just kind of looks at him and shakes her head or something.

And then he’s flashing to this, this creepy blonde girl, all in white, like in a white, like. Nightgown holding a big white ball, and she’s like creepily smiling at him. She’s creepy. And I know. I have no idea what’s happening. I have no, yeah, and, and then we’re not supposed to. And then he pulls a flask, I think, out of his pants.

But then the flask is like this. It’s like bigger than a gallon of milk. 

Todd: Like it’s enormous. 

Craig: And he takes a big swig off of it. Okay. Now, as I continued watching it, and it remains. Crazy like this throughout. Like he ends up at a studio and he’s being interviewed and then other things are happening and it seems like some of them are happening onset, some of them are happening offset, but I think that some of the things that are happening offset, he’s kind of imagining are happening onset.

Hmm. My ultimate interpretation of this. Is that he is being moved through all of this. Like he really did get picked up at the airport. He really did get taken to a studio. There really was an interview, but he is so up either on alcohol. Or drugs, ah, that we are kind of experiencing this whole thing through his perspective.

Todd: I think that makes sense. Yeah. He, uh, he’s, I mean, essentially he’s a down on his luck actor maybe was really famous at one time, obviously, because they’re obsessive about interviewing him and getting him in this movie and then present him an award. Banquet type thing later, but he’s just not into it. You know?

He’s struggling to get through everything and you’re right. Well, I think what we’re seeing is a lot of this through his eyes trying to put us in his mindset really. But it’s surreal 

Craig: and it’s beautifully shot. Lots of use of fog machines and what I loved was when. He would be in a scene and then all of a sudden you would start to see the crew all around the lighting and, and the directors in the background.

Yeah. Some of those times I think much of that was imagined. I think that he was just living his real life, and maybe I’m getting too, I’m interpreting it too much, but it’s almost as though he so accustomed to living in front of the camera and living under the lights that. That’s just how he perceives the whole world.

Mm-hmm. Like he’s always on 

Todd: stage. Always on stage. Yeah. Well, he only really perks up when one of the interviewers asks him a question about the devil. 

Clip: Do you believe in God? No. And in the devil? Yes. In the devil, yes. How exciting and what is he like? Have you seen him? Yes, I’ve seen him. What does he look like?

A black cat or? Go for that. Oh no, I’m English, not uh, Catholic. To me, the devil is cheerful. Agile.

Todd: He looks like a little girl and so that provides that link. Now this girl is the devil, so I feel like his time is limited and this little girl is the devil patiently waiting to finish what it started, you know, once he kind of went down this road to ruin. And so he’s always seeing her everywhere he is, and I got a feeling of impatience.

As we were watching him at the ceremony, and I thought that was brilliant because I felt like, again, we were in his mind. I mean, you can imagine this has been one long ass day and you just want it to be over with. 

Craig: Yes. But 

Todd: you’re sitting here and these lights are on you, and you’ve gotta listen to these people come up and talk.

And then the big wig comes in and we’ve gotta pay. Everyone’s gotta pretend like that he’s important and they care about what he’s doing, and then they present these awards and by this time, this guy’s head is in his hands. Yeah, he is just a nightmare. He’s messed up. Yeah, he’s messed up. He accepts his award and as he.

Leaves. I think he runs out of there, doesn’t he? Yeah, I 

Craig: think 

Todd: so. Out in the alley, a guy’s there with the keys to the Ferrari that he was promised, and it is a beautiful gold. Well, it’s a very awesome looking gold Ferrari, and he sits in there and he is like, finally, finally I got what I, what I came here for, I guess.

And he takes off on a mad speed dash through the city for quite a while. And then the countryside. Yeah, I put, 

Craig: I put in my notes Mario Kart, like 

Todd: he’s just driving. Driving everywhere. It’s 

Craig: great on these tiny Italian streets, little dirt roads. Just flying through them. I don’t know if he ever actually left that ceremony.

I don’t know if this is a fantasy because I think he ends up back at it eventually. I, I, well, I think so. ’cause I have in my notes, you know, after. I don’t know. Maybe I, I don’t know. Maybe I got lost in my notes, but one of the things that I wanted to say when he was at that ceremony, you were talking about how you were kind of getting impatient with it.

I was too, and I was also unsettled, and I think that part of that was because when he was in the car, he had a translator, but then she’s not there anymore. And so everybody is speaking in Italian and they’re not translating it for us. And there are no subtitles, right. I don’t have any idea what anybody is saying and I think that’s brilliant because neither does he.

Yes, exactly. You know, like, 

Todd: yeah, he’s as confused as we are and that puts us in his space. It was really good. Yeah. Uhhuh. Oh my God. I couldn’t, I was actually kind of exhilarated with him getting in that car. All this is shot really well. It’s a lot of quick cuts and things, but so, so interest, so, so much style and the wind is blowing through his hair and there are these shots of, of him in the car with just like smoke flying past him and mm-hmm.

He ends up out in the dark. I at a bridge and as he pulls up to the bridge, he sees the bridge. There’s, there’s a big break in it. You know, it’s, it’s basically like an overpass or something. Mm-hmm. And at the other side of the bridge is this woman, the devil. This girl with her little white ball. And so he’s kind of was out there and he stands out there and he says, I think I can make that jump.

I know I can make that jump. So yeah, he gets in his car backs away, up, goes flying through out into blackness. And then the camera kind of slowly starts to pan from the other side of the bridge, or maybe the same side, I’m not quite sure. Slowly, slowly, slowly, the darkness kind of reveals as the camera comes closer, that there was a wire stretched across the bridge.

Mm. And there’s blood dripping from the wire. Little girl tosses her ball, goes to pick it up next to the severed head down there, and she takes the head and goes away. Now the, this is based on that post story. And the post story is basically about a guy who is traveling and comes across a covered bridge and there’s a turnstile that he stopped by and the devil is with him.

He bets the devil his head, that he can leap over this turnstile and then an old man shows up and is interested if he’s capable of making this leap. And he offers him a good running start and he makes a perfect jump. But directly above the turnstile, he falls backwards and the old man quickly grabs something and then limps away.

And then, you know, the narrator checks and sees that his, that his head is gone and realizes that there was a sharp iron bar above the turnstile that severed his head. So the devil, and this old man apparently had tricked him. So maybe the old man being the devil. So I guess this is like a, a nod to the story.

That he kind of gets the same fate, but in a more modern way. That’s, see, I guess, you know, what is it? I mean, he’s been, he’s been playing with fire his whole life. He’s been, you know, the, finally he’s gotta give the devil his due. And this is what happens at the end. I don’t know. 

Craig: I dunno what the point of it is and the whole thing.

There are lots of details that we skipped. Like there’s some woman who pledges her ever loving everlasting love to him. Uhhuh. Um, he accepts an award and does a famous speech from Macbeth, which was kind of fun to see. Like that’s a really pretentious. Like audition piece or whatever, but Right. It was kind of cool to hear Terrence Stamp Do it.

Yeah. This was my favorite one. Just be, and I was so confused watching it, but it was just so visually stimulating. Yes. And I, I enjoy, and, and he’s good. I mean, he’s, he’s great. He’s weird. He’s weird and you don’t know what’s going on with him. And he’s progressively more and more like despondent and super.

Drunk, I think or Or messed up on something. Yeah. But he plays it well. He acts it well. He does a very good job. He 

Todd: does. He very well. And it was cool to see him, young man. He’s a good looking guy. Yeah. I guess Peter o, did I read this right? Peter O’Toole was originally gonna play this role. 

Craig: That that’s, yeah, that’s who I was trying to come up with at the beginning.

Oh, that’s right. And when he, when he dropped out, the director called a casting agency somewhere and said, send me your most serious actors or something. I don’t remember what it was. Yeah. They sent a couple and he went with Terrance Mann. I. Had kind of forgotten that we were doing this because it was a tribute to Terrence Mann.

And so I didn’t do a lot of research on him, but I went real quick while we were talking and looked at his, uh, IMDB and I saw that he, one of his last films was last night in soho, which I only very recently watched. He was good in that. I think that, um, a lot of people know and love him from Priscilla Queen of the Desert, where he plays a drag queen in a performance that is loved by many.

I’ve never seen that movie. I don’t know why I. Huh? I haven’t, but, uh, he just had such a un, like such a distinctive look. Yes. A look that suggested a bad guy, which is why I think he probably was pigeonholed a little bit into bad guy roles because of his appearance, maybe. But a great look, such a great look for film.

And he always delivered, you know, he had a. Stoic and commanding presence. You know, when he would pop up, he was always fun to see. I I always knew he was gonna be good in whatever he was in. 

Todd: Yeah. You got a feeling like he’s one of those guys who plays a villain where you believe there’s really something deep inside.

You know? Yeah. Not just like a cackling villain or whatever, but like seriously, like, this guy’s scary, there’s depth here, there’s something inside. And, and he just has that look to him and he was able to really pull that off. And I think that’s why he got cast in a lot of those kind of roles is ’cause he could be a, a complex, bad guy.

Well, thank you guys so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with a friend. You can definitely go to our website, chainsaw ho.com to stream everything that we have, including all of our back episodes. You can go to our Patreon, uh, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast and for five bucks a month, you can get complete unedited versions of our phone calls that put this together.

You can get, uh, mini sos. We’ve got our book club up. There you can send us a message, uh, on our website by clicking talk to us and send us a voice message. And if you send us one of those and it’s airable, we will, we will air it on a future episode. Uh, please do that and sign up for our newsletter. We put out a newsletter once a week that just tells you what we’re doing, gives you updates on the Patreon and a little bit of news and what’s going on in the horror community.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw. 

Join us in this episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw as we review the 2023 horror-comedy ‘Borderline.’

Starring Samara Weaving and Ray Nicholson, and directed by Jimmy Warden, the film follows a stalker’s delusional quest to marry a pop star. We delve into the performances, plot intricacies, and the film’s unique blend of humor and horror. We also discuss the film’s musical numbers and its commentary on mental health depiction. Don’t miss our take on this quirky and unsettling movie!

Borderline (2023)

Episode 456, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: This week we are doing a brand new movie that came out in March of this year called Borderline starring Samara Weaving Ray Nicholson, who is Jack Nicholson’s son. Ah, written and directed by Jimmy Warden. Did you not realize that?

No. But now that you say it, it. Total sense. Super obvious, right? Like the guy Uhhuh, he was also in Smile, wasn’t he? Or Smile? Two, one of the two. Uh, one of them I think. Yeah. He was like perfect for that. He 

Craig: kind looks like his dad. Oh, he totally looks like his dad, in fact. And he’s kind of got that wild look about him.

That makes so I did not know that. And it makes so much. Sense. He’s 

Todd: pretty wild in this movie. He plays, uh, a guy named Paul Dorson, who is basically a stalker for a celebrity and this whole movie when you go Crazy person. Yeah, yeah. Crazy dude. Which makes the whole movie crazy. And I guess this is loosely based on a Madonna stalking in 1996.

Right. Hence the title. Borderline. Yeah. Yeah. Is that like a reference to her song? Yeah. Oh, it all, they play the song in the movie. It’s all coming back to me now. It’s, it’s a cover, another song they play in the 

Craig: movie. Oh, that’s a great song. That’s one of my favorite scenes. Don’t spoil it. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Todd: Yeah. In that case, I think there was a guy who confronted her body card and was going to, uh, said that he was going to slit her throat if she didn’t marry him. And then escaped a mental hospital later. Mm-hmm. But was, was caught again, so, uh, not, not too far off from, yeah. Quickly subject to this movie here, and I guess I didn’t realize this, but, uh, the writer director, Jimmy Warden, is married to Samara Weaving in real life.

Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. 

Craig: I only because of this movie and because of researching it, I didn’t know that either. And I don’t know if they met on. The babysitter. 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: But they both worked on that movie. Seems like it. And that was a movie we’ve done and we loved it. I loved that movie. I thought it was so good.

And that’s when I fell in love with Samara Weaving. And I am still desperately in love with her. Like I just think that she is stunningly gorgeous and a really unique. Cool way. She’s girl next door, but she’s also like a kick ass chick and uh, I just think she’s so cool. And yeah, they’re married. I think this is his directorial debut, at least with a feature length film, but he wrote.

Cocaine bear. Mm-hmm. Which I saw, and I really honest, I don’t remember a whole lot about it, but I do remember thinking that it was very funny. Like I was shocked at how good it was. I enjoyed it. Yeah. I, yeah, that was one of those, 

Todd: it’s one of those movies that feels like it. It’s a big joke. And so I didn’t really hold out a lot of hope for it, and then when I watched it I was like, oh my God.

Movie is hilarious. Yeah, I, I really enjoyed it. He does have a nice comic sensibility to him. The babysitter was just darkly comedic, almost disturbingly, so, and I thought, mm-hmm. Um, cocaine bear the same way. It’s just shocking. And then this movie really in the same vein in a way, although I felt like this movie was for me overall, felt a little slower.

At first, I was really on board with the pace and the speed of it, and then as it went on, I, I found myself kind of watching my, watching the clock a little bit. 

Craig: I think that’s kind of the general sentiment. I think response to it has been kind of middle of the road like. Some people like it, some people don’t.

Like you said, a common criticism is that it’s too slow. I, I honestly think that I just like this style and sense of humor so much, and I like Samara weaving so much that anytime she’s on. Screen, I am engaged. It wasn’t even an effort for me to overlook some of the slower parts. Well, I guess what I’m trying to get at is mm-hmm.

I’ve read the criticisms and I understand them and, and I think that people who are criticized that make valid points. Mm. Nonetheless, I really enjoyed it. It is one, one thing can just go ahead. I wanted to address really quick. Yeah. I, I mentioned this, uh, movie in our chat for our book club. Uh huh And a, a, a couple of people chimed in that this was a little bit dated in its approach to that whole crazy people.

Are the villains trope, oh, in so much as maybe it’s. Insensitive about mental illness or struggles with mental health, and frankly, I had never really thought of that because portrayals of people who are crazy in these movies are so over the top and cartoonish to me that it never occurs to me that we would associate that with.

Anything real. It’s right. It’s, yeah. So anyway, I just wanted to put it out there. I’m going to call this guy a crazy guy. I’m sorry. I hope that that doesn’t seem insensitive to anybody, and I don’t, I do understand the serious nature of people who struggle with their mental health, so I in no way mean any disrespect in that way, but I’m gonna call him crazy.

Todd: Yeah. I mean, okay, that’s all. It’s a horror movie. I think it’s, it’s a well made horror movie with a lot of art behind it. So obviously like it has high, it has higher pretensions and so I maybe that leads people to examine that with a closer lens. Yeah. But honestly, when you look back at all the horror movies that we do, most of the protagonists or crazy right?

Like, you know, but they’re co right. It’s all right. Right. 

Craig: Yeah. It’s part and parcel of the, of the genre. I think the concern is that it stigmatizes people with mental health struggles. Sure. And I just, I understand that concern. I just don’t see it that way. I don’t think the portrayals that we see, we have talked about this many, many times of like.

Mental institutions or whatever, that’s not real. We know that’s not real. Yeah. We know that people aren’t bumbling around eating the checkers and stuff, you know, like, yeah, I get it. It’s, it’s fiction and this guy’s crazy, so, Hmm. The 

Todd: music in this film is really good. I, that’s so good. It’s done by the Mondo Boys, which I guess are a couple of guys who have done music for a number of films and uh, and things just from the very beginning.

The score in this film is just. It calls attention to itself. It’s so good. But it also fits really well. I guess they composed, Dave Made a maze. Have you ever seen that one where the guy makes a maze out of cardboard in his living room and, no. That’s one I’ve always wanted to see. Yeah. And a whole bunch of stuff since then.

But also, yeah, of course this movie is their latest one that they have done. Man, the music is so good. There are also some pop songs in here mm-hmm. That come up and we’ll talk about that later, of course. But yeah, I, and the, and the, God, the cinematography is so nice. The lighting and it’s just beautiful and it, I feel like this movie does that thing where you take such a beautiful image and then have such sudden graphic, horrible violence happening at times within that, that it’s that very uncomfortable dichotomy that we sometimes get in in horror movies, especially a horror comedy.

And I think it actually works pretty well here. Like I said, my only complaint. Personally was just that it felt a little slow after a while. Mm-hmm. You know, at first, like I said, I was kind of into it. I liked the pacing. I thought that the opening scene was really intriguing. Yeah. And I believe that’s the one right where, where Paul first approaches the bodyguard at the front of the house at this big, big mansion.

Craig: Right. Well, 

Todd: or am I 

Craig: wrong? It starts with a shot of a wedding and it all looks very beautiful. It looks like the, oh, beginning of a rom-com. Ah, yes. And. The main guy, Paul narrates and says, I hate it when they show the ending first, but I just couldn’t help myself. It’s a sweet, romantic, charming wedding with him and the main girl, Sophia, the girl that I’m in love with, she’s in like a blue wedding dress and they’re getting married and they’re, you know, looking into each other’s eyes and they’re kissing and then.

I don’t remember if it’s on screen. I think it’s, you know, like a scroll on screen that says. Back to the beginning. Mm-hmm. And then we jump back and then we get the actual story. She is, like you said, this is based on Madonna and I wouldn’t say that she’s playing Madonna, but she’s playing a Madonna like role.

She’s a huge yeah star. We see a whole montage of like posters and movie trailers and red carpets, and I don’t know if they shot all this stuff. Or if they shot some stuff and then also just pulled, because you know, Samara Weaving’s a huge star, so there’s footage of her on red carpets and stuff. I was really curious of whether or not they used real stuff or if they shot it all, but whatever.

It’s just establishes that she’s a, a huge, huge star. Right. And then we get to the scene that you were talking about where the groom that we saw in that first scene. Knocks on the door of her mansion and her security guide Bell. Shoot, I didn’t write down his name. He’s very famous. He’s married to the Zema girl.

He’s uh, Dr. He’s Dr. Mcy, I think. Uhhuh. Eric Dane. Eric Dane. Eric Dane, who is very, very handsome, always has been. I think he recently announced that. He’s been diagnosed with Luke E’s disease. Oh no. Yeah, a LS, but, uh, he is committed to keeping working. I saw an interview with him and I think that he’s, I should fact check these things before I say them, but I’m pretty sure that he’s said that he’s lost almost.

All mobility on one side of his body and oh no, he’s concerned about losing it on the other side, but he’s also committed to continue working. Now, this movie came out in 2025. I don’t know when that diagnosis happened, but he seems well able bodied in this movie. Yeah, and he’s very likable. He’s like the older gray haired security guard.

Her personal security guard. We hadn’t even talked about that opening scene yet. Yeah, 

Todd: yeah. With, um, the bodyguard and it’s good. Mm-hmm. Paul’s basically coming up and, uh, he’s, he’s, he’s clearly, like you said earlier, he’s a crazy person who is a delusional that he and Sophia are lovers and he’s going to propose and he has a rose there and he’s just does all this byplay with a bodyguard.

He’s trying to weasel his way in and you get the sense well. It’s clear that this is not the first time he’s been by. 

Craig: Yes. Yeah, it’s, it’s funny to me that you said delusional, because that’s the exact word that I had in my notes. What I had is, Paul is charming. But delusional. Yeah. And he is charming and that I think makes this guy’s performance really interesting because yes, he’s crazy, but he’s delusional.

He, in his mind, he believes these things and he is charming. He’s endearing in a way, E, except for we learn very quickly in the scene that he is. Dangerous. Yeah. I, I, I really liked this scene. It seemed like the bodyguard bell felt for this guy. Mm-hmm. You know, he didn’t, he, he didn’t want to call the police.

He didn’t want to have to hurt this guy. He knows this guy is. Delusional. It’s not his fault. Um, yeah. But it’s, it’s also his job to keep him away and is not even there anyway. Right. So he tries to, he, he tries to be nice to him. He tries to send him away. I feel like maybe he goes back in and then there’s another knock on the door.

Is that right? Yeah. 

Todd: Because I think that when he comes out the second time, doesn’t he have a knife up to his neck and he’s threatening suicide? 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And he just kind of like, pulls out an imaginary engagement ring and, and tries to propose to him. 

Craig: Yes. Yes. Because at this point, the second time he knocks on the door, he speaks to Belle as though Belle is Sophia.

Yeah. It’s like he’s hallucinating. Right. Yeah. Like he really thinks it’s her, which is important again later. You’re Sophia, don’t shoot, 

Clip: don’t look. I’m an arm. Let me help say you’re Sophia. Okay? I’m Sophia, and you love me. I’m Sophia and I love you Now gimme the knife. Boy, stay there. 

Craig: And it doesn’t like it.

It doesn’t seem, it doesn’t seem like a trick. It seems like he’s crazy and he really thinks that Belle is her. Yep. Yeah. And he does a whole, very romantic proposal. Bell goes along with it a little too much. He goes along with it too much. That’s what I have. He’s too nice. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And this guy, you know, the.

Paul seems to know too much, like he knows about See, but I don’t even, he knows that Bell’s wife had had cancer and died, and I, I’m, I’m really not sure how he knew all that. I think. He’s, he is smart. He’s a good stalk, stalker, right? But anyway, bell plays along with this whole proposal thing, and he allows Paul to embrace him after he says yes to the marriage proposal.

And then Paul stabs. Yeah, it’s tragic. It’s a big old knife. 

Todd: Yeah. And I thought he’s, I thought he’s gonna bleed Die day. Me too. Yeah. I was a little confused by the text. For some reason, the text on the screen I thought said six months earlier, but apparently it’s six months later, things pick up again.

That, that confused the heck out of me. 

Craig: Yeah, but you, you. Mentioned, uh, the music earlier and it’s when he’s laying there dead. Well, first there’s kind of a montage of Paul like partying it up, living it up in Sophia’s house. Ah, inside the house. Yeah. And he takes a bath and he swims in the pool and, you know, all kinds of cool stuff.

But then it cuts back out to Bell who is laying there seemingly bleeding out and. We see him up close at first, but then it cuts way back. So it’s just kind of a shot of the driveway and the mansion and the title borderline starts coming up to Annie Lennox’s No More. I love you. Like all of this. Just hit a tone for me.

Yeah, like it felt, I don’t know, late eighties, early nineties, and I love Annie Lennox and I love that song, and it was. So it didn’t match the tone of the violence. Right, right. Like it countered it in such an interesting way. Yeah. It’s a dichotomy. I think I’m gonna like this movie. Mm-hmm. Like I am, I am into the people, I’m into the performances, I’m into the tone, I’m into the music.

The borderline title, just like crawling up this. The screen. It got it. He caught me. Yeah. You, you’ll get me with a good in introduction. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s, it does a perfect job of establishing that tone, I think. And that’s the tone we’re gonna get throughout the whole movie. It’s darkly comedic and it’s slower at paced, as I said, a million times already.

Basically, Bell’s gonna goes back to work for Sophia. He has a young daughter, Abby, and she’s worried about him. They have a nice little relationship. And Sophia’s played by Samara Weaving, right? Mm-hmm. She’s the one, yep. Mm-hmm. And then they learn that he’s escaped from prison, right along with. An inmate, penny Pascal, who was like, I don’t know who’s that girl from the suicide squad.

It reminded me of her. The Joker? Uh oh, oh y. 

Craig: Yeah. I think of her name, either God. 

Todd: Right? But you know what I’m talking about. Kind of a Carley Clownish. Harley Quinn. Harley Quinn. Harley Quinn. Yeah. She was given serious Harley Quinn vibes, I thought at times. Anyway, yeah. Not in the beginning, but 

Craig: yeah, later he has escaped with her.

Like he, I think he’s recruited this girl, and I loved her too. I don’t, this actress, I don’t have her name in front of me, but she, I think, has been a rising star somewhere else. I don’t know if it’s in Latin America or Europe, but she’s been a rising star. I think this is her big first English speaking role, but I really liked her.

He, he escapes with her and he’s gotta helper on the outside. Who’s this? Big guy who just seems like somebody who is very easily influenced, very easily manipulated. Mm-hmm. Not inherently a bad guy, but he’s been influenced and manipulated by this guy to help him escape prison and blah, blah, blah. And yes, Sophia, we finally meet her.

And again, I don’t think that she’s, maybe she is. I don’t know if she is. I don’t think she’s doing a great job. I don’t think she’s intentionally like trying to. Play Madonna. She’s just trying to play the role of a very famous, rich pop star who I don’t know. I mean, I didn’t find her unlikable. She’s self-centered and egotistical, but she seems fun.

Yeah, and she seems relatively grounded and centered except for that, you know, like she has. Candlesticks that have her heads, like at the part that hold the candles and her, I don’t wanna say her boyfriend because it seems like they have only recently met. In fact, I think this might be their first date, I’m not sure, but she’s met this guy Rhodes and.

Slept with him. Good for them. I hope they had a good time. Um, but he is, he’s based on Dennis Rodman, who, yeah. Madonna dated in like 1996 for a minute. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: I just have in my notes. Did they just meet yesterday? Like I, I think maybe they met yesterday. I don’t know. Because they had this cute scene, right, where they’re like.

No, exactly. They have that cute scene where he knows she’s famous, but he’s not entirely sure who she is. And she’s like, what’s my favorite song of yours? And he’s like, oh, girls just want to have fun. And she’s like, no, that’s. Cyndi Lauper and he says something else, I think a Madonna song, and she’s like, do I look like Madonna?

And he says, uh, A little, actually, a little. That’s right. 

Todd: It was a fun end joke. They argue right for a while who? The, the security, the numbers. Because he leaves, right? He leaves for a while. 

Craig: Yeah, he does. I mean, bell comes over because he hears that the guy has. Escaped. Right. And on his drive over, they play love fool by the cardigans from Romeo and Juliet, which again, I love this soundtrack.

I think I may have mentioned this before. I talk to Alan about it all the time. It’s very obvious to me that the people who are in charge of things right now are our age, because I keep hearing. Our music and stuff. Yeah. Like I’m hearing lots of Tori Amos, I’m hearing tons of stuff from the nineties, and this movie is no exception.

I, I feel like you’re trying to get to the part where the threat happens. Right. There’s a lot of stuff that happens. There’s a lot of stuff that happens before that that I don’t even necessarily remember. Like Sophia and Rhodes go to a club and they sexy dance together and Yep, 

Todd: that’s true. Is very sexy.

I don’t know why, but Yeah, they do. I guess they’re just hanging out. Oh. ’cause they just, they just go right. Like they’re, they’re gonna leave the house. Penny shows up at the mansion. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a security guard there who we haven’t met before. Uh, it’s not Bell, it’s just a guy out by the gate.

So when she parks her car, he comes out and boy does she go in and kill him in a brutal fashion. God, what does she do? She, I just remember this was the first, I 

Craig: don’t, they they, it’s a, it’s a big fight. Like they have a big fight. Yeah. And I don’t remember. And it’s very actiony and she. Again, I apologize for my use of the word.

She’s crazy. She’s enjoying this. And, and later, you know, uh, eventually she bests him. I, I frankly don’t remember exactly how she kills him. It’s very violent and bloody, and they’re hitting each other and I think she smashes his head or. Something. I think that’s what it is. 

Todd: Yeah, like a microwave or something.

It’s just really some big, big thing. It’s shockingly brutal and gory. I was, I was really surprised at this point, but this is very much like his tone in the babysitter, I would say. Yeah. There’s that moment where the violence really starts happening where, you know, the, the guy comes downstairs and you think they’re all having fun and then the babysitter whips out two knives and just jams ’em right into the side of, of that guy’s head.

It’s just very similar to that. 

Craig: I think even in the violence, I feel like even in the violence, there’s just something very playful about it. Like, well, yeah, of course there’s, you know, that kind of. Aggressive violence in real life is terrible, but when you’re watching a movie like this, I feel like this guy knows how to make it fun.

It, it doesn’t seem so serious, you know? Right, right. It’s just a movie. Let’s just have fun with it. Yeah. They also, you know, they, these three bad guys, they also. Kidnap somebody. They go to some guy’s house and the nice sweet girl, Penelope, whatever her name is, she’s like, oh, I had some car trouble. And he’s like, oh, I’ll help you.

And she kind of winks at the camera or whatever. We find out later that they’ve kidnapped this guy for a particular reason, and the cop bell leaves his. Daughter with her aunt and they see the big guy. I just have his name as JH. Is that what they called him? JH? Yeah. JH. Or did I abbreviate it? Yeah. He’s this really big guy, and again, he’s also kind of stereotypical.

He’s kind of like the big dumb. He’s the big dumb goon who will do whatever the man bad guy tells him, and he is. Out there. And so the ant calls a cop and everything. As is typical of movies like this, when you have several plot lines going on at the same time, everything jumps back and forth. So I may be kind of, yeah, combining this story, but the ant calls the cops, a cop comes, he’s kind of, he’s skeptical.

He thinks they’re just being. Paranoid, like, oh, there was a person outside your apartment. Like there was a guy on the city street. Ooh, scary. But they’re insistent, so he humors them and. I thought it was funny where they’re like, you can just go, you know, watch the street from your car or whatever. He’s like, my bike.

Like he’s a bike cop and the reason that he wants to get out of there is because he wants to go, he needs to get to an audition. Ah, and one, one of my favorite scenes of the movie happens when he is outside just, you know, keeping watch or whatever, but he’s rehearsing. His audition and he does the whole song and dance Yes.

With this whole thing right there on the street. And it’s like old Hollywood singing in the rain style. Mm-hmm. He’s doing like jazz squares and stuff. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It is so funny. And at some point, like somebody rides their bike by, or walks by and he like stops and tries to act cool. Like he wasn’t just dancing on the sidewalk.

Uh, that’s one of, at least. Two parts that are so stylized and kind of the, the next one is even more removed from reality that made this movie really fun for me. Right. Do you know what I mean? 

Todd: Yeah. I know. You can’t take it seriously, so you start having fun with it. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And 

Craig: that’s, that’s kinda how I felt with it.

Not that the stakes weren’t high, because meanwhile, Penelope or whatever her name is, has killed the gate guard. So she and the other guy have gotten into the house and that’s about to get violent, but also JH kidnaps. The daughter, the aunt and Bell, and is seemingly taking them to the mansion. Like, yeah, I think what it, Paul is the main bad guy.

I think he’s trying to get at, in his mind, these are all gonna be guests at the wedding, but on, on the way to the mansion, I guess. Bell talks too much or something, and JH tells him to pull over and takes him to the side of the road and shoots him in the head. That was 

Todd: crazy. I was not expecting that. I thought this guy was gonna live to the end or some, some way at least have a, a less, um, a more noble death, you know?

But it just establishes how crazy they are, you know, on well, just how brutal they are, you know, willing, willing to, to do that. So then he just drives Abby and Eleanor. To the mansion, right? Yeah. That’s, that’s messed up. And then I guess what they put Sophia in the booth Yes. Of her recording studio. This beautiful, lavish recording studio that is well lit in all these unique, I, it just gorgeous.

And they’re messing with her. Paul is like, she, she’s trying to reason with him, but he’s just 

Craig: out of it. Yeah. It’s not even that he’s messing with her. He is just so delusional that the things that she says don’t, yeah, they don’t register with him at all. Yeah, exactly. He’s in this delusion that they’re in love and they’re gonna get married and Yeah.

That’s all there is to it. Yeah. I mean, there is, we, I, I suppose, I think you had mentioned it earlier, she and the boyfriend guy. Roads get in a fight, Uhhuh, and she tells him to leave. So he tries to leave, but then he realizes that something as weird is going on. So when she gets in a very tense scene, for some reason the power is out.

I don’t know if they cut the power or if it’s a storm or whatever, but the power is out and there’s a tense scene in the kitchen where Sophia is facing, right? If we’re looking at the screen and she doesn’t realize that. The bad guy is right behind her, and when the lights come back on, he starts speaking to her.

And she’s clearly very frightened. But she’s also, I don’t know, I, I just, I, I love her acting in this, like you said, she tries to reason with him as she continues to when he eventually puts her in there. But 

Clip: Paul, I love it when you call me by my name. Okay. Um, listen, you’re confused. All right. You are in the middle of a psychotic.

Um, they told me what happened to you at my show, and I’m so sorry. Nobody should have to go through that. Okay. This is not the answer. 

Craig: There’s a chase and, and she’s trying to unlock the door, and she can’t because the lock is too hard and he knocks her out and then gets her in there. I, I just think that it’s, it’s played really well that she is scared, but she knows who this guy is.

You know, she knows that he’s crazy and she knows that he’s delusional. Yeah. I. Kind of thought that she would maybe play in. She eventually does play into that, but I thought that she would maybe play into it sooner. Right. She tries to rationalize with him first. She tries to say you’re confused, or, or, or something along those lines.

Mm-hmm. But there’s, there’s no reasoning with him. 

Todd: No, he’s just, he’s out of it. And I think that’s, I mean, that makes him a formidable villain and unpredictable, I suppose. I mean, you know, that he’s just carrying out a plan and it doesn’t seem like there’s anybody who’s going to be able to, with words, convince him otherwise.

So, you know, it’s, he’s like this sort of charming guy, right? This charming. Mm-hmm. Delusional guy who should be able to be manipulated, but he’s pretty resistant to it. And so I find that an interesting aspect of this. I really felt like the. Whole end of the movie would kind of culminate in some elaborate, you know, hoax that they play on him in order to play to his delusions to kinda diffuse everything.

And it doesn’t really happen that way. So, uh, it kind of does, I mean, a lit Well, does it, I mean, all right. We can talk about that later. But, um, 

Craig: yeah, and, and I mean, so there’s. This. I feel like this is the part I imagine that may have gotten a little bit slow to you because there’s like a montage of him, like swimming in there.

They play a a cover of Madonna’s Borderline, yeah. Flaming Lips Cover, which I really liked. Oh yeah. First of all, I like that song. I’m a fan of Madonna. I like the flaming Lips and. I was a fan of this cover, so I thought it was cool, but like, he’s like five stars all around from Craig, right? Like the, the lighting is all red and stuff.

And then he puts on his tux and Penny gives Sophia the blue wedding dress that we saw before. And he has, like, he, he has like this ceremonial wedding dagger. He had told Belle about it before. 

Todd: Oh 

Craig: boy, and the aunt and the daughter arrive, and then comes my favorite part of the movie where Penny is with Sophia.

And Sophia’s supposed to be getting her dress on and stuff, but they’re talking to each other and Penny tells Sophia, look, I know he’s crazy, but his crazy is like. A movie, like I love movies and I, I realized that if I teamed up with him, I could live in his movie. Right. So like, she’s just, she’s just having fun.

She’s killed a guy and had fun doing that, but she’s just having fun doing all of this. Like she’s living in a movie. Yeah. And then. Sophia tricks her and gets out Uhhuh, but they fight like Sophia accidentally. She thinks she’s gonna knock out Penelope, but she accidentally knocks out the boyfriend who’s gotten back inside.

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: So she and Penelope fight. Then I think Penelope like throws SoFi to the ground or something and then just walks over to the piano and starts playing these notes that anybody our age would totally recognize. Like,

what is happening? What is happening? Oh my God, this is so good. It’s the, this is my favorite part of the movie. I watched it a couple of times. 

Todd: I was just gonna say, I think this is the best part. You could go on YouTube and just Google music number, whatever borderline movie. It comes up and it’s so much fun.

Craig: Penelope had said to her earlier like, I’m a big fan. Maybe we could. Duet. Uh, and so she goes over to the piano and she starts playing Celine Dion. That Celine Dion song, uh, it’s all coming back to me now. 

Todd: Written by Jim Steinman? Yes. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Yes. Who wrote that song for Meatloaf? Yes. I only recently learned that.

Todd: Yeah, he did record it too. Yes. I think on one of his albums, did he, I’m pretty sure. Yeah. I’m, I have it in my head. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Uh, but anyway, Celine Dion made a huge hit. It was a huge hit. I love it. It’s a great song. But Penelope starts singing it and she’s fantastic. And they get into it and she’s so good. A light comes down on them.

Yeah, the lighting changes, like they’re in concert and they do sing it together. Frankly, I think Penelope’s a better singer than 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: Sophia, but they sound really, really good. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And they just. Sing most of the song and then they start fighting again. 

Todd: It just, it’s such an odd movie, right? Like that it just breaks for this song.

It’s such a non-sequitur and I don’t know, I was trying to think about it like, is there a meaning behind this in some way? Am I, I mean, I just, what I watched, I just thought it was kind of silly, but then I was trying to think what was. Our writer, director, Jimmy Ward, and thinking when he put this in, was he just trying to be quirky or, I don’t know.

Craig: I just, I dunno if it just, I, again, like I read the middling reactions to it and I get it. I don’t disagree with the things that people said. It just, this guy, I, I feel like he just gets me, like, it just strikes the right tone. Uhhuh, like from the very beginning when that. When the title starts to roll up and you hear, ah, like Uhhuh, I’m like, I’m like, this guy gets me.

Like I get it. I get what you’re doing. It’s not that serious. It’s funny. Just have fun with it and we’re gonna take little breaks. Throughout the movie to just have fun. Uh, does it make any sense? No. Is it realistic? Absolutely not. Is it fun? Yes. Like, yeah. Ah, that, that part alone, I mean, it, it, it sold me.

It was so good. Uh, and then it goes on, right? I don’t know. She said penny. 

Todd: Fire by the end of it, doesn’t she? Isn’t this the end of 

Craig: Yeah. And and and she does. Is this the end of Penny here? She does. Yeah. I, I think she doesn’t want to. No. You know, they, they fight and fight and fight and it gets to a point where Sophia could kill her and Penny says, go ahead and do it.

Go ahead and do it. And Sophia’s like, nah, that’s not my jam. Or something like that. But then. Penny basically does something that forces her hand and yeah, she sets her on fire and locks her in the recording booth and Okay. She, she’s done? Yep. Oh, and then, and then when she’s on fire. She stabs her with a meat thermometer.

I don’t remember why. Oh yes. I don’t even remember why there was a meat thermometer in. I don’t either. The plot don’t either, but there was, and she stabs her with it while she’s on fire. I thought that was pretty funny 

Todd: for no good reason. Yeah, it’s hilarious. By this point, Paul comes back. Rhodes is in there too, right?

He came back to To look for Sophia. Yes, and now Paul starts hallucinating. It took me a while to get this, honestly, because in the movie I just, Paul is so wacky, like I’m not sure. I never really fully internalized, I think until much later that he’s genuinely hallucinating. You know what I mean? The, in the beginning I actually thought that he wa he knew what he was doing when he was, you know, trying to propose to Bell.

Like he was kind of tricking him into the idea that he was hallucinating. Mm-hmm. Because I don’t, it’s not like most movies where it shows a flash of him from his perspective. Right. He just, no. Right. He just does it. So you kind of have to get what’s happening 

Craig: here and Right. Except for the very beginning, because we saw, you know, he said it’s, I hate it when they start at the beginning.

Oh right. And what we see at the beginning, I think is his perception, right? Because it’s a very happy, beautiful scene of him marrying Sophia and it is her in the dress. That never happens. So. His perception is that it’s her. He now thinks that Rhodes is Sophia. Right? So much so that Sophia is actually there and he’s like, um, lady, could you leave us alone?

She’s so confused. None of them know what’s going on. I, I thought that it was. A solid of roads to play along with it, you know? Right. He, he goes along with it. 

Todd: He does. And they go to a church. I guess there’s a church on the property or 

Craig: was this No, there’s a particular church that he has been planning to go to all along.

Ah, that’s right. It’s gotta be nearby. But they show up there and Bell comes back. He’s not dead. Yeah. There was a whole thing. JH only has one eye and Oh, that’s right. They make, they make a point of it and they make a point of how he doesn’t have clear like depth perception. Mm-hmm. So apparently when he pulled over and shot Bell in the head, his one eye made his perception off enough that he really just shot close enough to his head that it knocked him out or something.

I don’t know. But he’s fine. That’s really wacky. He comes back. What a great idea. By the way, I have in my notes weird, sweet Baby Jesus song. I don’t know what that means. I don’t, oh, I don’t remember what that means, but, but Rhodes walks down in the dress. Yeah. Like walks down the aisle. Sophia tries to step in, like, I think she feels bad, like roads shouldn’t have to be in this position.

So she tries to step in and Paul’s like, lady, I told you it’s not about you. Sit down. 

Todd: Oh my God. And so they get up and they do the ceremony. Paul kisses Rhodes. Mm-hmm. And then stabs him in the, in the gut. Yes. I guess the, the opening scene. Foreshadows this. Right. This was always his plan. 

Craig: Yeah. He’s got that ceremonial dagger or whatever.

Todd: Mm-hmm. Then there’s a big fight I think, and bell’s there and did, he’s called the police I think, and somehow he and Sophia get Paul Disarmed and and pinned down 

Craig: while Bell has to take down JH first. ’cause JH is the big goon and he’s still there. I think he drowns him maybe like in a baptismal font or something.

It’s a big fight. Somebody gets drowned. But I thought that, I thought Rhodes slit his throat. I thought, I don’t remember. I don’t know. It, it’s, it, it’s, yeah, it’s a big fight. It’s big in actiony and it all ha right, it, it all happens very quickly. At some point Paul apologizes to Sophia and again, like he remains, I think it’s because, you know, I’m thinking.

Of him as a character. Like he doesn’t really know what he’s doing. Like he almost really can’t even be blamed. He doesn’t know what he’s doing. And, and when he apologizes to her, it appears sincere. And I imagine in that moment, in his mind, it is sincere. Mm-hmm. And, and that’s difficult to play. But if you’ve got Jack Nicholson’s jeans and I, I, I don’t want to.

You know, downplay his talent as an actor. It just so happens that his dad is Jack Nicholson, so he got those genes. It, uh, he, he’s really good at it. I, I, I, I really enjoyed his performance. I found him crazy and frightening. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: But also somewhat endearing. So he apologized to her, but she kicks him in the head and then.

Oh, you’re right. Rhos does slit j h’s throat and the daughter JH is like holding the daughter hostage at the time. So when his slow, his throat gets slit, the daughter gets covered in blood and she, she’s this little girl and she goes, what the fuck?

And it’s funny, but I also really, really like the way the movie ends. Mm. Like we see all the, we see all the cops in the aftermath and like Sophia and Rhode typical, you know, yeah. Sophia and Rhodes like make nice in the back of the ambulance and they’re like, I don’t know, maybe we really could date or whatever.

Who cares? Bell and his daughter have a moment in their car. Mm-hmm. But what I really like about it is that the, the end is. Paul in his delusion, and he thinks that he and Sophia are driving away to go off on their honeymoon in a limousine. But we see as the camera kind of pulls out of a tight closeup on his face as he’s talking, he thinks he’s talking to her.

She’s not really there, that he’s actually in a police car and and being taken away and he stops talking and the credits start to roll. Camera doesn’t leave him, and it’s al he starts to cry. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s almost like, it’s also surreal. He really, he, he’s, he is delusional, but at the same time. He can see beyond his delusion.

Does that make sense? Like Yeah. I thought, I, I, I thought it was great. I, I thought it was amazing acting. It reminded me a lot of Pearl when the credits rolled and they just stayed on her and we just watched Oh yeah. Her face, her her face. It reminded me a lot of that, and I felt like I saw, to call it a realization isn’t.

Isn’t accurate because I, I think that he kind of knew all along, but it’s as though he’s coming to terms with it and watching him just cry. Ooh. Kinda gave me goosebumps. 

Todd: Yeah. It really keeps you watching the credits, that’s for sure. It’s, it reminded me also just slightly of the, uh, ending to the graduate, you know, it’s kind of similar in a way, and that, that always struck me and stayed with me for a long time.

That’s when the newlyweds Right. Run out of the church and are in the back of the, yeah. At the bus getting away, and then it keeps going and keeps going, keeps going, and suddenly, you know, they’re looking at each other and. They don’t really know what to do. Like, all right, we just had that big moment and this sort of the end, but now life goes on and now what?

You know, that’s the impression you get. This is obviously a little more obviously attuned for this particular circumstance, but, uh, yeah, I, I, I thought it was all, like, all of the performances in this movie, very solid. I mean, he is fantastic as Paul. He’s really good. Everyone here is good. Ugh. I I don’t think there was a bad performance 

Craig: in the whole lot, was there?

I don’t think so. I like the whole thing. I, I, to be very honest, and I am the biggest Samara weaving fan, I don’t think that this is her best, only because I don’t think that her. Character had a whole lot to do. 

Todd: No, it’s a little one. Note her character. Yeah. She’s mostly just reacting to things the whole time.

Craig: Yeah. It’s, it’s not a criticism of her at all. Right? It’s, it’s, she did fine with what she had. It. It’s funny, you know, we were supposed to record this a couple of weeks ago and we didn’t, so it’s been a while since. I’ve seen it, but I, and it’s been a while since I’ve looked at my notes, but at the bottom of my notes, I have a note to myself.

I wrote, the movie is lesser than the sum of its parts. Like I, I think that I can understand why people have criticisms of the movie as a whole, but there are so many parts of it. I thought were so, so good. The musical numbers, the big fight between Penelope and and the cop, the Paul’s performance overall, that last scene, there are so many parts that I thought were so good that I would a hundred percent recommend the movie.

It’s so funny when I took the note, I still had that Celine Dion song in my. Head and I, I quoted it. I, I, okay, so here’s my note. The movie is lesser than the sum of its parts. Quote. There were moments of gold and there were flashes of light. There were things I’d never do again, but then they always seemed right.

Oh God. That, that’s the movie in a nutshell to me. Oh, you’re such a dork. I love 

Todd: that 

Craig: song. 

Todd: It’s a great song. I love every single one of Jim Steinman’s songs. He passed away a few years ago and I was pretty devastated. I’ve always loved his music. It’s, it’s distinct and very unique. It’s, it’s theatrical.

Wagner Rock used to call it. Yeah. Very theatrical. Yeah. Well put meatloaf on the map as well as a few other people. But, uh, yeah, I, like I said, I, I enjoyed it, but I, I have to admit, I fell asleep watching it the first time. I had to turn it back on later and, and restarted from the beginning because I was.

All over the map, you know? So I don’t think it’s gonna be everyone’s cup of tea. Mm-hmm. But I think it’s really well made and it’s really quirky. So yeah, just like his other movies, cocaine Bear and Babysitter, they’re all a little like this in their humor, mixed with horror. So if you liked those other two, I think you’d like this as well.

Craig: Agreed. I don’t know what he did on the babysitter. I, I was looking at his credentials and for the babysitter, he’s credited as some asshole. Really? I thought he wrote, I thought he was, he directed it. Look at, I look at it on IMDB. Some asshole. That’s his credit. Some, some asshole. 

Todd: Oh my gosh. Mc G was the director.

Okay. I kind of forgot that. Fair enough. 

Craig: He directed the. No, he wrote the second one. Oh, that’s it. Um, which I didn’t like as much, but I still, I enjoyed it. I didn’t, I didn’t like it as much 

Todd: as the first, but I still enjoyed it. He was a co-producer on, um, the babysitter, the original, so. Gotcha, gotcha.

Besides being some asshole, of course.

Well, thank you so much for listening to another episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us online, Google two guys in a Chainsaw podcast. You’ll find our website. You can leave us a message there by clicking speak to us, talk into your computer, leave us a message, and we will play it on the air.

We love hearing from you guys. If you want to get a direct line to us besides that, you could welcome to join our Patreon at patreon.com/chainsaw podcast where we have full unedited versions of our episodes and all the good stuff we talk about before. Four and after, boy, with this one, you’ll get to hear all about my trip to Singapore if you’re interested in that.

Craig alluded to our book club earlier. We, we we’re going with Christopher Pike and all kinds of different, uh, horror and horror adjacent books on there, and we have a growing group of people doing that. If that interests you, five bucks a month gets you access to Sta Mini Sos, and, uh, little things that we write up and just basic communication, uh, direct line to us.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig. With Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Request time! This week we’re diving into the 2023 horror film ‘When Evil Lurks,’ directed by Damian Ruga. Coming straight from our patrons’ vote, this Argentinian possession thriller has caught the eyes of many with its unsettling atmosphere and striking visuals.

Join us as we discuss the plot, character dynamics, and the unique narrative techniques that make this movie a standout. We explore the dark, rural setting, the meticulously crafted rules of possession, and the shocking moments that make this film not for the faint of heart. Wondering how bureaucracy and environmentalism influenced Ruga’s work? Tune in to find out!

If you enjoy horror movies that challenge conventions and pack an emotional punch, you won’t want to miss this episode. Don’t forget to leave your thoughts and comments; we’d love to hear what you think!

When Evil Lurks (2023)

Episode #455, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, today it’s request time. It’s been a little while since we’ve done a request, so we decided to put a pause in the tribute episodes. It was almost like tribute month there for a while, but lots of fun. Uh, good, good to find an excuse to do movies we wouldn’t otherwise do, and I feel like the requests are perfect fodder for that as well.

So, as usual, one of the benefits of being a patron of. Our podcast is that our patrons get to vote on our requests. We keep our requests in a long list, and then we pull up three that we would be interested in doing. Try to kind of match them a little bit and style and tone or whatnot, and throw them up to our patrons and decide which one’s the winner.

And this time they chose a more modern movie than we’ve been doing lately. 2023’s When Evil Lurks, which I saw the poster constantly on almost every streaming service I belong to. It was like a red poster, a silhouette of a person standing in field with, with an ax pointed at their own head, and I actually did manage to watch it.

I think last year, Liz and I watched it, we really, we really enjoyed it. We were very unsettled by it, so I was kind of happy to see them vote on this one because I was gonna eventually propose that we, that we do this, we’ve, we had several requests for it, so very happy to fulfill this one. Thank you so much, patrons, and to those of you who requested it.

So yeah, I’ve seen the movie. How about you? Had you seen this? 

Craig: No, I remember reading about it when it was coming out a just vaguely I remember the title. And then just a couple of weeks ago in book club, our friend Trish said that she had recently seen it and, and really enjoyed it. And that was right before you put it up in the poll, but I hadn’t seen it.

I imagine the reason that I probably hadn’t seen it was because. It’s not in English. I’ve gotten really lazy about that. You shy away. Yeah, I know. When we first started doing the podcast 10 years ago and we would do foreign films, I would. You know, be like, you’ve gotta watch it in the original language and you’ve gotta watch it with the subtitles.

’cause the performances are just different. If you watch it with the dub. I don’t know what has changed in me, but if there’s a dub available, I’m watching the dub. I really think it’s because it’s not just me, but kind of as a. Society and as a culture, we’re so, like, our attention is so limited. So I have to have two or three screens in front of me all the time.

And when I’m so, so if I’m watching something that’s in a foreign language and I have to read the subtitles, that takes away from me looking at my phone and looking at the other screen that’s on, and I just, I can’t, so. But on shutter, which is where I watched it, there wasn’t a dub available. So I did watch it in the original language and I was reminded the poor guy the it.

No, it really does make a difference like the, uh, the original performance with the original actor’s voices. I really do think it makes a difference. Sure. So it just kind of depends on how much you care, I guess. And for this movie. Which I think, oh, I have really mixed feelings about it. It’s one of those movies that’s hard to say, Ooh, I liked it.

Todd: Right. Or else we think you’re a freak. 

Craig: I know. But I do think that it is a really, really well made movie and something totally worth seeing because it’s original and scary. Oh yeah. I. Seen a movie that I was as scared by in a long time. 

Todd: I concur, by the way, I am not a multiple screen guy. I’m a multiple screen guy in some ways, but not when I watch movies.

I’m very much a purist. I will never watch a movie and have another screen open except like I have to take notes nowadays when we watch these movies. Mm-hmm. So I do have my laptop open ’cause it’s a little easier. I really don’t care for it when other people in the room are not paying as much attention to the movie as I’m Oh, I know.

It’s 

Craig: annoying. 

Todd: Yeah. You know, so, so, yeah. But, but I, I gotta say like, as far as the language and stuff goes, although I agree with you as far as. It really is better to watch it in its original language if you can, as a guy who dubs films and TV shows and cartoons and things for a living, I can’t shoot you down for it.

Yeah, 

Craig: no, I get it. 

Todd: You’re can enjoy someone else’s work. You know, it’s just like large print books and audio books and things. I’m really not a fan of audio books either, to be honest. Like I would much, much, much rather read something than have it read to me. But if I’m on a long car ride, I will definitely put in an audio book and, and love it to pieces.

So just depends on the scenario. Yeah, I agree with you, dude. Scary movie. The second time I watched it, I knew what was happening, so obviously it, it lost a lot of that impact. But I remember the first time around watching it, it’s like, man, when this movie picks up, it does not let go. Oh my, my 

Craig: gosh, I know it’s an hour and 40 minutes long, but like, I kept checking the timestamp just to see how much time had gone by, and every time it would’ve been like 20 minutes and it felt like five.

This? Yeah. This movie feels like it goes by so fast, which is rare and I love it. 

Todd: Just yesterday I was watching some clip, I think it was on Instagram, but it was Trey Parker and Matt Stone. They were talking about their south park writing process to a group of kids, I think in a, like a writing class or something, and they were outlining it.

And they were saying that really the key that they learned, and this is common advice for when you’re putting together a story, is that. So you, you, you have a scene and then this happens, and then this happens. He’s like, that’s not what you want. You want a scene and therefore this happens. But this happened, so like.

Each scene like leads to a consequence that causes the next scene to happen. You know what I mean? Sure. If you’re just grouping a bunch of scenes together where things happen, but there’s no flow, new natural story flow from one to the other, it just, it just gets boring real fast. And so to keep things like motivated and I thought, gosh, this movie was written entirely like that.

There’s not a scene that doesn’t just delete directly into the next scene because of something that happened in that previous scene. It’s just consequence after consequence, after consequence, right, of people making increasingly poor choices repeatedly to the point where you are screaming at the screen.

Will you just listen to the person who’s telling you what to do? You know what to do and you’re not doing it anyway. And that’s why all this shit is your fault. 

Craig: Well, and it, and it just feels like there’s no filler and there’s no, let’s take a five minute break for some heavy exposition. Like it just moves.

Frantic isn’t the right word, because it doesn’t seem, it seems very purposeful. It seems very purposeful, and they know what they’re doing. It doesn’t seem frantic, but it’s a frantic pace because what’s happening to them is happening at. Such a rapid pace. Uh, it’s wild and urgently. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Super, super urgent.

Todd: And I’ve never seen a concept like this before. I think, I mean, at least not played out in this way. This is more or less a possession movie, but it has its own rules. Have you 

Craig: ever seen those Jason Statham movies where like, he has to like, keep his heart rate super, super high or else he’ll die, or something like that?

Todd: Oh yeah. This is kind of like that. 

Craig: I, I, well, I’ve never seen those, but that’s kind of what I would imagine. Like it’s just gotta keep moving, moving. But it also, it doesn’t seem forced, it feels very natural. I, the movie is such that I am so invested in these characters and what they’re going through, that I am on the edge of my seat.

Ugh. It is wild. 

Todd: It has its slow mo. I mean, any movie that is just breakneck pace from beginning to end, it’s hard to sustain an interest. And this is why like ev every Transformers movie after the first one, I just, I just get bored after watching. I just can’t watch an hour and a half long fight scene.

You know, something’s gotta give this movie, let’s not give the totally wrong impression. It does move at a breakneck pace, but there are moments where they get a break. However, it’s still, the pressure is still on. Yeah, there’s still an urgency there that keeps that pressure going in a different way. 

Craig: Well, and in those moments it slows down and it quiets down for a minute, but like you said, everything is still so urgent and it’s still so emotionally charged and yeah, you’re still getting.

New information, like the story is still moving along. It’s not like the story takes a break, right? Like things are still happening. We still need to keep it moving. It’s just, there are some natural moments where we’ve got a second to kind of process this a little bit, but it’s also impossible to process.

So it still feels, uh, I was just, oh man, I found this to be like a, an emotional rollercoaster. I had such sympathy for the main characters and I was. Shocked. I was frankly shocked. The movie doesn’t pull any punches, and that’s one of the things that I like most about it. It doesn’t pull any punches at all.

And there were some things, one in particular that comes fairly early in the movie, so we’ll talk about it soon. There was one thing that. Was so projected. I saw it coming a million miles away and I was like, no. Certainly not. Certainly not. Oh, then it happened. They were toying 

Todd: with you. 

Craig: They were toying with you.

Oh boy. Oh boy. Anyway, we should get into talking about what it’s about or unless you have more back stuff that I don’t know about. ’cause I don’t really know a lot. Of backstory about this. 

Todd: Uh, it’s an Argentinian movie. I guess that needs to be said. You know, it’s, it’s in Spanish. It’s, that’s really about it.

I just read, you know, the writer director, Damian Ruga, I think is how you pronounce it. Uhhuh, uh, he’s done several films before this. Uh, he seems to gravitate towards horror a bit or, or thrillers. This is a strong film. It was on all, a lot of the streaming services. I don’t know where it got its theatrical release.

Uh, if it did, 

Craig: I don’t know if it did or not. It’s a shutter production. 

Todd: Yeah, probably not then. But, um, he got the idea for it because he was thinking about bureaucracy and he was also thinking about environmentalism and just kind of like what happens when we have rules, but we don’t follow them. You know, if nobody’s following the rules that are established, like what happens?

And I think from that seed of an idea and a few other things that he kind of tossed in there as inspiration, he came up with this, this, I think, like I said, I think it’s a pretty unique narrative, honestly. I mean, it’s a possession story, but. You know, 

Craig: you said something about environmentalism. I think that he had heard stories about pesticides being used in rural communities in unethical ways, and how that was affecting entire communities in negative ways, 

Todd: government corruption.

Craig: Yeah, and this movie is interesting. I don’t know, this is kind of a broad statement. I don’t know if it’s entirely fair, but you don’t really see a ton of movies about these kind of small, rural communities and how everybody kind of knows each other and everybody’s lives are a little bit intertwined. And beyond that, they also kind of rely on one another.

And I thought that that was, I, I liked the kind of. It’s not entirely intimate. There’s a lot of characters, but it’s it, it’s a small community where it kind of seems like everybody kind of is familiar with one another. Mm-hmm. And I found that interesting. And you know, it starts out with these two brothers, I don’t really understand.

I don’t know if this was lost in translation or if I wasn’t paying attention enough. They’re living together. On a farm, these two brothers, and they hear at night gunshots and go to check it out and find a dead guy who they don’t know. And not only is he dead, but he’s been ripped in half. And at first they think maybe it was a wild animal, like a a, a puma or something, but.

One of the brothers is like, no, he’s been sawed in half by something sharp. And they also find some like metal pieces. They look like pieces of something 

Todd: kind of contraption. Yeah. 

Craig: Right. But we don’t have any idea what that 

Todd: is. They’re speculating. They think it’s this guy named Ruiz, I believe. And. They also find a book nearby.

Craig: Yeah. Ruiz is their landlord, so they wonder if he has something to do with it, but then they also find some notebook or something. Mm-hmm. That has one of their neighbor’s name and address, this lady named Maria. And it’s got, and they say it’s in a language they don’t understand. They say maybe Russian or something, but they do see their neighbor’s name and address so they.

Go there. And when they get there, they’re like, we found this dead guy. And Maria is like, oh crap. We were waiting for that guy to come kill Uriel, who is her son? She takes them in to see him and he is. Disgusting. 

Todd: Yeah. God this was like straight outta seven, but 10 times more. That’s 

Craig: exactly what I was gonna say.

That’s so 

Todd: funny. We date ourselves, don’t we? 

Craig: Yeah. He’s big and fat and covered and just like in his underwear, which are all stained and disgusting and his 

Todd: green shit coming out of his mouth. Yeah, 

Craig: he’s, he’s covered in sores and just like oozing puss and sweat and piss and it is just disgusting. And his mom says.

He’s possessed. He’s been rotten for a long time. He’s been like that for over a year. Oh God. They’ve told the police about it. One of the brothers is like those damn police. They should have called for a cleaner sooner. It seems like everybody is kind of aware of what is happening here. Yeah. Like this is something that they’re aware of.

Correct. What do they call them? They call them the rotten or something like that. The rot, 

Todd: yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: And if somebody is rotten, that means that they’re possessed. And apparently there’s some sort of, I don’t know, protocol there. There are people, there’s protocol. Yeah, there’s protocol. There’s people that come in and take care of it.

But apparently the protocol is important. 

Todd: Yeah. And everybody knows about it really. I, I think that’s part of the point of this whole deal. This is not a new discovery. This is not a case of where, you know, there’s some sinister force here that people have to wrestle to understand. They seem to understand it really well and there is a children’s song about it and there are seven rules later that we learned about Uhhuh.

And you know, she said they reported it to the cops. These guys go to the cops and the cops are just like. They’re just, again, I think, you know, this is police corruption. They’re, they’re just in, they just don’t care. Like they were slow. Yeah. They’re like, downplaying it. Oh, why are you in such a hurry? Blah, blah, blah, yada yada.

They’re like, you should have sent them a cleaner a year ago. 

Craig: Yeah. And when the brothers talk to Ruiz, the landlord, he says that it’s a setup like the, the state wants their land. So I don’t know if he thinks that they’re making this happen or just ignoring it so that people have to leave. I don’t know.

Todd: Oh, that could be, 

Craig: but he Ruiz goes to the place to kill the possessed guy, urial. But the mom says, don’t do it. It’ll just make everything worse. It will possess us. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: And we find out later that that’s one of the rules. Like you can’t kill them. In fact, they talk about how like the rotten people. They are like a pre-stage before the demon is born right into the world.

Now, I’m not sure that I totally understand that, but we’re, it’s made clear that they’re not supposed to kill him because if they kill him, it will be even worse. 

Todd: You know, all this. Information has dripped out at us a little bit. You know, later on in the movie, as we meet one of these cleaners, grandma explains something to a child that they don’t understand and the whole mytho, I mean, there’s clearly hinting at a deeper mythology here that we really only touch on, but there’s something about this world where they said that church have failed and God is dead, and you know, then the demons unleashed.

But then there were these people, these cleaners, who could actually resist and come out and actually. Fix it, which we later learn is through the use somehow of these contraptions. Why? We honestly, we act, I don’t think we ever see one of these contraptions fully functioning, but we, we see them and we meet some cleaners and so we get a sense of this, and that’s really all we need.

Right barest minimum that this has been going on for a long time. It’s a worldwide problem, existential issue, and there are protocols and people in place to deal with it. As long as you follow the rules, you should be okay. And everybody supposed seems to have the rules drilled into them. And what happens here in the movies almost from the get go is that they stop following them just because people just are impatient or they want to.

Take the matters into their own hands. In this case, uh, Pedro is like, we, we need to move the body. And I don’t know where he thinks I, he just wants to get it outta there. Did he want to take it somewhere? I’m not even clear where he was hoping to move it to. 

Craig: He, well, he and the brother said something about they were gonna leave, but Ruiz, it’s his land.

Like he doesn’t wanna just leave. So he says, let’s just get it. They can’t kill it. ’cause then it will possess more. People or things or whatever. So they’re like, let’s just take it far, far away. I think they just think if they take it far, far away, that that will remove the problem. And so they do. They load him up in the back of a truck in a disgusting.

Procedure, like the, the, the effects in this movie are insane. Oh yeah. They’re, they’re really good, but it’s really gory and this part is really disgusting. Like they’re, they’re carrying him in like a sheet and they show it a close shot from underneath and it’s like oozing puss and it’s disgusting. So, 

Todd: yeah.

I’m surprised they could lift that guy. 

Craig: Oh, I know. He was huge. And he rips through the sheet at some point and they have to put him on a another plate. But they get him in the back, in the bed of the truck and they drive him hundreds of kilometers away. I don’t know what that means in miles ’cause I’m a stupid American, but far away, 

Todd: like 50 or something.

I don’t know. 

Craig: But, but at, so, but at some point somebody like walks in front of him in the road and they have to veer really hard to avoid hitting this kid. Yeah. And they keep driving and when they feel like they’ve gotten far enough away, they. Stop to pull the body out and throw it out and it’s not in there anymore, and they’re like, oh crap.

It must have fallen out when we veered to not hit that kid. Now I don’t understand this. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: because that truck bed, not only was the hatch closed. But it had a tarp on the top. How did that huge fat guy fall out? 

Todd: You’re right, the hatch was closed. In my mind, I was thinking it was open, but it, it popped open, I guess because when they go back to check, the hatch is open.

Okay. But yeah. How in the world did that guy, all they did was swerve, you know, there, and that thing was heavy. 

Craig: That was a 300 pound guy. Easy. 

Todd: To be fair, he was pretty juicy. So, you know, yeah. Sliding around. He might have been greasy enough to slide right out. The thing that, the thing that like threw me.

Was he almost instantly looks behind in the rear view mirror and we see the kid like, pick up his bike and go off the road. There’s no sign of that guy on the road? No. So if he slid off, and I mean obviously he did, he must have rolled immediately into the ditch or something within seconds, so, eh. It’s a little sloppy.

I think this bit, this bit here, but we were supposed to not notice, 

Craig: right? 

Todd: Or whatever. Right. 

Craig: We’re we’re supposed to kind of not notice. And then at this point, if you want the experience of the movie, forget about that. That’s over. We’ll come back to it later, but it’s, forget about it so we can talk about it later.

Okay. So they go back home and immediately, like it never slows down immediately. Ruiz’s wife, his pregnant wife comes. Running in the house and is like one of the goats is possessed and Ruiz runs out with his gun. And this is such a cool shot. Now, I heard that it was a nightmare for them to shoot, but there’s a whole herd of goats on one side of the fence and Ruiz and his wife on the other side of the fence.

And at first all the whole herd is just standing there looking at them. But then the wife points out the possessed one and Ruiz points his shotgun in the air and fires. All of the goats run except that one, and he points the rifle at the goat and it walks up and puts its forehead right against the barrel of the gun.

It’s tempting him. Yeah. But, but that’s it. Once that like. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: we, we come to find out later, you’re not supposed to kill them at all, I think, but specifically, you’re not supposed to use guns. Like that’s one of the rules. 

Todd: Yeah. That like makes the demon work much faster or something like that, or something.

I don’t know. But he does. He shoots it, right? Yeah. She’s begging him, she’s grabs an ax and starts approaching and I’m thinking like, you know, she’s like. Thinking we’re gonna axe the goat or something. And she’s like, don’t shoot it. Don’t shoot it. This, by the way, is the first of many times where a woman tells a man what not to to do and he does it anyway to bad consequences.

I have to feel that that’s a message of the movie or somehow as well. It’s like machismo thing, you know? That also is very prevalent and Latino Spanish culture as well. Yeah, he shoots it anyway. And just as fast as he shoots it, she acts as him in the face, in the side of the head. He falls down dead, and then she grabs that ex kneels on the ground and starts ax herself in the face.

Craig: Yeah. She’s like nine months pregnant. This is when I, I’m like, oh man, this movie is really gonna go there. 

Todd: Right at, 

Craig: at, at first, I, somebody had said something like, I think the, the big, the, the possessed guy had said something like that he was gonna possess the baby or something. I think that’s why they got out of Dodge, ah, in the first place.

But then when they got rid of him, I’m like, oh, okay, well that pregnant lady’s gonna be okay. No. Then she just totally acts as herself in the face. And this is the first time that I looked at the timestamp stamp and I was blown away to find out that we were a half an hour in. Really, it felt like we had, I had been watching for like 10 minutes.

Todd: Oh my gosh, I’m even shocked. I mean, I didn’t look at the timestamp at all, but like yeah, that felt like 10 minutes tops. Yeah. Wow. No half hour already. It’s shocking, and I mean, kudos to these guys. I do not think I’ve ever seen this in a movie, ever. A person asking themself, now I have a question for you, ’cause I’m unsure.

Did she get possessed by the goat or did she suddenly decide to take matters into her own hands to prevent them from getting possessed? 

Craig: No, I think she was possessed. Okay. I think that him killing, I don’t know. I don’t really know how this works. I, 

Todd: yeah. I 

Craig: think that we’re supposed to believe ’cause they have, if we’re going by what they’ve said, they would need to kill Uel to release it, but they didn’t.

Right. But now it almost seems like because he killed the goat that freed it to then possess her. Mm. I don’t, I, I don’t know if those. If that totally matches up, I don’t care. Who knows? I’m just in it at this point right now, we go back to the brothers at their house and the older, not older, the, there was like a teenage son who also lived with Maria and Uriel, and he shows up and he’s like.

My mom disappeared. Can I please stay here? He’s clearly scared and they don’t know what’s going on. They don’t know if he’s possessed or what’s going on, so they say that he can stay in the barn, but he has to leave it Dawn. And he says, turn off all the electric lights because the shadows from that light call the evil.

And at least at one or two points during the movie, we kind of see some shadow play. They don’t make too much of it, but we know it’s a thing. Hmm. But the next thing that happens is the brothers go to pick up Pedro’s. Pedro is the older one. I think he’s got a beard. Mm-hmm. I don’t know. That makes him older to me.

Yep. They’re gonna go pick up his kids in town and get out. Apparently he is divorced from his wife. His wife has custody of the kids. They have two boys, an older teenage boy who has autism and a younger boy, I would guess like, I don’t know, eight. And then the wife and her new husband have a child, also a daughter, Vicki.

Yep. So they. Go to get him and Oh man, the wife’s dog comes out and sniffs. Okay, so Pedro’s like, I gotta get outta these clothes. I gotta, it, it’s like he thinks the essence of evil is on his clothes or something. Yeah. Yeah. ’cause it turns out that’s one of the rules. So he takes off all of his clothes and, and like cleans himself off or whatever, but he just throws the clothes in a pile on the floor.

And this big. Mastiff, I think dog. A huge dog is sniffing at the clothes. And as soon as that happened, I was like, oh. Fuck. 

Todd: Right. It’s, it’s so irritating too, because this guy is so concerned about these clothes. He’s just doing this in the worst place. Like he comes inside, takes them off in the living room where they could, A kid could wander into him.

Yeah. You know, the dog does. They’re not even paying attention. Like the dog goes over a couple times and it’s like practically fishing his nose through those clothes, and they don’t even seem to. Like they’re just not in the game. You know? This is supposed to be serious business and I’m just already frustrated at this guy.

So anyway, you’re right. The dog leaves well and goes and sits and the 

Craig: kids goes and sits in the living room and is just kind of watching them and the kids are walking all around it. And then this is a huge dog. Like it. Yeah, I think it’s a, I think it’s a mastiff, but it also looks like the calmest.

Friendliest dog. Mm-hmm. And it, these it, I mean, it’s a movie. It’s acting, obviously, I’m sure this is a trained dog, but it looks as though these children are perfectly comfortable around the dog and it’s perfectly comfortable around them. And the little girl, it’s as big as she is. She goes and stands next to it and they are the same.

It’s sitting and they’re the same height. It’s a huge dog. And I was just waiting, you know, the adults are kind of yelling at each other. And they cut back to the dog, right next to the little girl in her pajamas and fast as lightning. That dog just bites, like, just grabs her head in its jaws 

Todd: Oh, 

Craig: and, and runs off with her.

Todd: That was insane. 

Craig: And the little boy is watching and comes downstairs and looks under the table to see the dog shaking this little girl like prey. Oh man. And, and this was the point where I was like, wow, they’re going there. This movie? Yeah, this movie is not gonna pull any punches because that was brutal.

And you rarely see that kind of. Graphic brutal violence against children. And to be fair, it’s very fast. They don’t linger on it, but you see it and it’s very violent. 

Todd: I mean, it’s almost worse. Yeah. I mean at this point they’ve really established they will go anywhere. So you know that nobody is safe.

You’re not following these rules of cinema where, you know, innocent girls and children or whatever pregnant ladies are, uh, are spared. No, we very quickly established pregnant ladies and children are not safe. Neither are dogs. For that matter, nobody’s safe. Right? And I mean, the suspense in that scene was insane.

You know what’s happening? You see that dog sitting there and one by one the children are coming to pet, the dog and the scene’s shot from behind the dog. The kids are in silhouette. Then we get it in the front and I’m just on the edge of my seat going, oh my God, please don’t, you’re not going to really, the dogs aren’t gonna attack the kids, right?

Like there’s no way it’s gonna leap out at the adults or something like that. And the movie is deliciously toying with you. Right at this moment. So smart cinematography in this movie is really good. Yeah, it’s very good. One thing that makes it so good is it’s practically invisible. You know, everything is very steady cam and it’s shot around them, and it’s very utilitarian in a good way.

Like we can always see everything we need to see, but the camera’s very dynamic. It’s always moving around them. You really sort of feel like you’re in the middle of the action. I wouldn’t say it’s documentary style because you know, no, that would no. That would be like shaky cam and zooms and things. No, this is just very, very fluid, nice filmmaking with these well set up shots and quite a few really long shots in this, where the camera doesn’t cut away for a while.

Really keeps you in there. And 

Craig: I 

Todd: was 

Craig: just gonna say, it’s, it’s like you said it, you know, it’s, it’s not a lot of movement in the, in the cinematography, but it, it just seems like things are framed very well. I don’t know. I, I was very impressed by the, the technical elements of the filmmaking. I thought it looked.

Fantastic. 

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: Um, throughout, I thought it was, the lighting was great. Everything looked really, really good. Man, that dog, that dog runs off with the girl in his mouth. Yeah. And like runs through the town and the girl’s dad. Who, you know, it’s not like he’s a bad guy or anything. We don’t have any problem with him.

He just happens to be the new husband. He runs off chasing it, looking for it. He’s frantic. It all feels very, I think maybe this is what I was trying to get at with the whole rural community thing too. It, it all feels very real. Yeah. It feels like these people know each other. Pedro, our, our main guy and the wife’s new husband, they don’t seem like they really have any beef, you know, like, no.

I mean, no, they don’t. This is just, you know, the situation that they’re in and, and like the, the new guy is like, please help me find my daughter. And Pedro is like, whatever you do, don’t kill the dog. Don’t kill the dog. But of course, when. New husband finds the dog, he shoots it. But then and again, you’re not supposed to do that.

We haven’t been told that explicitly yet. We will be soon, but you’re not supposed to do that. But then the next thing we see is the daughter comes home and she’s fine. Yeah. Which is. Impossible. Yeah. Based on what we have seen, this is impossible. 

Todd: Well, and come to think of it based on what we see later, it also is impossible.

Like she has no scars, no anything on her face. Whereas, correct me if I’m wrong, everybody else who sort of comes back from being attacked has all their injuries and they’re, they’re kind of messed up. This was a weird bit for me. I’m not sure what to make of it 

Craig: for whatever reason. I am okay in this movie.

I’m critical of it in other movies, but I’m kind of okay in this movie with the rules being a tiny bit nebulous, 

Todd: right? 

Craig: I’m okay that she ca like this is some kind of evil demon. I, I don’t know what it’s capable of, 

Todd: right. I’m just talking about consistency. 

Craig: No, I, I, no, I agree with you. And in, in another movie I would criticize it, but I’m so invested in this and I’m so, like, I don’t, I don’t know what’s going on.

It’s creepy. I’m not, I’m not sure exactly how it works, and that makes it even creepier to me that I, that I don’t. Quite fully understand it. 

Todd: Well, part of the reason for that could also be very like practical. Uh, from my understanding, they weren’t, I mean, they were shooting with kid actors in these violent situations.

There were rules they had to follow and one of them apparently was a restriction that they couldn’t have any bit of fake blood on the kid’s bare skin. 

Craig: Huh. 

Todd: So maybe that was a re, you know. They couldn’t do makeup on her face, so they just decided we’re just not gonna do it. 

Craig: Yeah. It it, it’s spooky and, and it’s not like she’s acting spooky.

She’s acting like a kid, but based on what we have just seen it, it doesn’t match what Yeah. You know, she, she’s not acting scared. She’s smiling and, and she leans in and whispers to her mom, dad will kill you. And I think she says something like, he’ll come in the truck and then pop. And then that happens.

Yes. Boom. The dad comes. Yeah, the dad comes roaring in in his big truck and just nails the mom up against. The house. 

Todd: That’s shocking. And Pedro is in the meanwhile running inside the house and we see for the first time that he has this other son who’s a special needs boy. He’s older and seems like, he says he’s autistic.

Is that Yeah. Is that what they, yeah. Mm-hmm. So he’s autistic and he’s. Not high functioning, so, uh Right. You know, he’s, he’s, he’s getting him up out of bed. He’s, uh, trying to get him outta there. He’s getting his other son. They’re going downstairs, of course. Vicki’s back. She smashes into the car and they go into their own car and he starts to back out.

Huh. Interestingly. Is this the point in which the boyfriend wakes up in the car and you can kind of see he looks a bit possessed himself. He turns to the right and he sees Vicki who is dancing. Like the best thing that could ever happen has just happened, just dancing around. With glee. That was creepy.

Craig: It’s, it’s, yeah, it’s a little pet cemetery vibes. 

Todd: Oh, that’s true. Yeah. And I’m, I’m 

Craig: cool with that. But yeah, the Pedro and the brother get the boys into the car and they leave and they go to pick up their mom, and, and their plan is they’re gonna get the mom and then they’re all just gonna get outta there.

Like they, I think they think that they can run away. From it. And the grandma, they get the grandma, she’s super nice. She clearly loves her grandsons very much. She’s concerned. She doesn’t know what’s going on, but she’s also kind of chill ’cause she doesn’t really know what’s going on. Mm-hmm. Um, and even when they tell her, you know, there’s, there’s a rotten in town, it’s almost like she thinks that it’s.

Lore. Like she, she’s aware of the lore, but she doesn’t, maybe, doesn’t really believe it or, or whatever. Or maybe 

Todd: she just has this trust that it’s manageable and not, not a big concern of theirs. I don’t know. 

Craig: But the grandson, the grandson asks her about it, and this is when she, this would be the only place where I would say that there was some.

Exposition, but it goes by so quickly that it, it doesn’t, it didn’t interfere with the pacing to me, but she explains that there are seven rules, no electric lights, which we’ve already heard once. Stay away from animals. Obviously don’t take stuff that was close to somebody who is possessed. We’ve seen that with the clothes and stuff.

Don’t hurt them. Don’t shoot them and never call Evil by its name. And the kid’s like Evil has a name. She’s like, oh yeah, there’s tons of evil names. Like Asrael and Bales above. Like she just starts off all, yeah. Like maybe not lady, but Okay. But I noticed at this point that there were. Only, she only said six and and maybe the grandson calls that out too.

I, but yep. She doesn’t say the seventh one at this point. The seventh one comes out later. 

Todd: That was smart too. What a way to keep us on the edge. What? What’s a seventh roll? Tell us a seventh roll. Dammit. Go back. They stop at a gas station, and right now Pedro is just trying to come to terms with everything that he did.

Pedro is basically responsible. For bring. I mean, he’s exactly what his ex-wife accused him of. Like the minute he walks in the house and she sees what he’s doing, she’s screaming at him. You get that outta the house, you’re bringing the evil in. And of course he doesn’t, he takes his clothes off and is doing the whole deal.

So like the full effect of the fact that he is responsible for this starts to get the best of him. And he sits down and he’s kind of like distraught and he’s talking to Pedro. He gets a call. And it is from his ex-wife who he knows is dead. And it’s a bit of a taunting call. I know. Mm-hmm. Where you are, you took my children, I want them back.

So they gotta decide where to go, and they decide to go to this woman’s house that Jimmy knows Mirta now. 

Craig: I couldn’t understand what this relationship was because she looked older than them. But I think that she’s a former lover of his Maybe it, it seemed like. 

Todd: Yeah, that was hinted at. It’s, 

Craig: well, it doesn’t matter.

Ultimately, it’s just somebody that he knows and, and he says, you know, she’ll give us money, and she says that she will, but she doesn’t have cash on her and she can’t get anything from the bank until Monday, so they’re kind of stuck there. 

Todd: But she also has a house without electricity. Because she turns out to be and, and we very soon fi figure this out.

’cause she, she’s the source of quite a bit of exposition and background here too. She, it’s really just from here on out. Mostly her, those two kids and, uh, Pedro and Jimmy. For the rest, 

Craig: for most of movie, well kind rest the movie. Jare is the older. Developmentally disabled son, and he won’t leave the car.

And so he’s there in the car, but then the wife shows up. Yeah. And she’s all up, like her face is all messed up. But she says to Pedro, I think I came for my children. And she grabs the little boy santino and takes off with them and, and then. Meda says, I don’t remember how exactly this happens. They’re at the car for some re reason, and Meda says that there’s a demon in Jaire, the older son.

Mm-hmm. And she says, look at his hands. And his feet or something like that. And, and they show us his hands and they’re kind of really like, tense, like into claws. And she, she says something like, I’ve seen this before. Now I suppose somebody could say that. This is convoluted. I kind of liked it. I thought that it was an interesting element.

She said that she is seen it before, that demons try to get into autistic people, but there’s something about autism that kind of traps the demon in there. Like they, yeah. They get stuck inside and, and they, they can’t find their way out for a while. She says, eventually it will, eventually it’ll get out and possess ’em.

There’s something about autism that confuses them and keeps them trapped in there, which I don’t know. It’s interesting. 

Todd: It is interesting. She does also tell them rule number seven is don’t be afraid of dying. Yeah. The more you’re scared of them, the stronger they become. And she says that they’re gonna ha the ra.

This is where we learned that the way that they’re gonna have to kind of release all this is to go to that original man and kill him. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: But you know, it’s gotta be done properly. She’s the, she’s one of these cleaners. Right who has the equipment, which she kind of starts setting up or at least pulling out, and she’s talking about how she, I, I assume all these cleaners have sort of a special gift where they aren’t afraid of the demon, and so they’re more resistant to the possession, which allows them to get close to it and I suppose start using this fancy equipment, I suppose.

Yeah, 

Craig: I, I, I guess it’s just that they know that the, the demons kind of feed on fear, so if they don’t feed it. 

Todd: Right. 

Craig: It’s, it’s not as strong or whatever. But I did find it interesting when she talks about this, she says that the thing that Pedro fears the most is losing his kids. And so that’s what the demon is gonna focus on.

And Oh boy. Oh, will he 

Todd: lose his kids? 

Craig: Spoiler. Oh boy. But you’re right, they, they, they have to find the guy. And so they’re like, well. I guess he didn’t die, but we know where he is pretty much because we, we pretty much know where he fell out, so they have to go try to find him. They split up, I think that she and Pedro go to look for the guy and Jimmy.

Goes to look for Sabrina and the kid. Mm. And he finds them like it takes him a while. Like he’s just driving around for a while. But eventually he put like, he’s driving through the fog and his headlights show the Sabrina walking down the road carrying. The kid in her arms, which is how we saw when she left.

But as he pulls up alongside her, he sees that she is pulling out his brains from the top of his head and eating it. 

Todd: Oh my 

Craig: God. Like popcorn that. 

Todd: Was shocking. 

Craig: I was shocked. I couldn’t believe it. I thought for sure at least, at least those two boys, I’m like, we, you know, we already saw the little girl get terribly mauled and possessed or whatever, but you know, that’s.

That’s just kind of the stepdaughter, you know, like his Right. She doesn’t count his, his two kids. She, she, she’s not important. His two kids will be okay. And especially the younger boy. Like, he was so cute and I thought, oh, he’ll be fine. Oh, no, no, no, not at all. He’s already dead. No, he is dead. Yeah. In the worst way.

Oh God. Yeah. He, he smashes her into a tree. 

Todd: He does, and then, but then her head comes through the windshield, she’s upside down and there’s a hole in her forehead and her brains are dripping out while she’s still talking to him. And this is where I believe there is an implication that they had some kind of relationship, if not an affair.

Right. She says something 

Craig: like, you told me you loved me, or something like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, but that’s it. Like, it’s just like that one line and he like tells her to shut up and then that’s it. There’s, there’s never, as far as I remember, any other reference to it. 

Todd: There’s all kinds of theories. From people online trying to kind of sort out what the real family situation is.

Here. There, there are people who think that maybe one of these kids is actually Jimmy’s kid through her maybe. And you know that the movie’s implying the, I mean, ultimately I don’t think it matters to the plot, like whose kid is who’s, but you know, it’s just kind of a interesting bits of trivia I suppose, and I don’t remember why.

So. So when the other two. Go to the side of the road and they find that the guy is not there, he is missing. They said, where could he be? And she says something like, well, evil likes kids, and kids love evil kids protect the rotten. So I know where they’re going to be. I don’t remember how she comes to that conclusion.

Craig: They must have seen a sign for a school or something. Yeah. And then so they go to this little rural school, which again, like it, it’s so intimate. We’re only focused in on these certain characters, but are we to believe that these kids have been posse? I, I guess all of this takes place over the course of just a day.

Todd: I think this is all like one day, one whole day. But the kids are coming in. I mean, to, to be fair, like they do show a couple kids coming, including at some point the kid with the bicycle that they swerve to hit and they walk in and, and you know, it’s, it’s appropriately creepy, old dark school. And one of the classrooms has a whole bunch of kids sitting in there with their heads down, Ugh.

And. They kind of pop their heads up and they say some sinister things and they sneak their way back outta there. The kids have like white stuff on their legs, and this one girl smear some white stuff across her face. It’s like powder of some kind. 

Craig: Yeah. I couldn’t figure that out for a while. They explained it, but for a minute I was like, what is happening?

I, I didn’t know if they were like molding or decaying. I wasn’t, yeah. I couldn’t figure it out. 

Todd: It was just another one of the many things that this movie sets up as a mystery at first and then pays off later, you know, which I, I love that they did that. 

Craig: Yeah. This school thing goes on for a while, but in the midst of it somewhere, we cut back to the house where the grandma is.

Todd: Oh yeah. And 

Craig: Jir, the grandson comes walking in the room and he says to his grandmother, I’m cold and I’m hungry. Can you make me something to eat? Now, this kid has been entirely. Nonverbal, the whole movie. And I don’t know if they talk about autism on a spectrum anymore, but like you said before, he’s not highly functional, he’s nonverbal.

He, you know, he’s limited in his mobility, but now he seems fully capable and is talking to her. So, I mean, I’m assuming he’s possessed, you know, like Right. The the thing, the thing may have had a hard time finding its way out, but it’s out now. Yeah. And we just see that for us. Second, and like the grandma looks a little bit worried and then we cut back into the school and the kids, like Pedro is asking the kids, you know, where is Uriel?

Where is the the rotten? And one of them says He’s not here, he’s at the teacher’s house. And so they get in the truck and. And then another kid knocks on the window and is like that, that kid was lying. He’s not at the teacher’s house. He’s, he’s at my parents’ house down the road or whatever, but Marta or whatever her name is, says they’re lying.

Kids lie, they, you know, kids protect, protect the rotten if they’re saying he’s somewhere else. That means he’s here. 

Todd: Yeah. And then he just flat out opens the door on that girl, knocks her down and starts assaulting her. 

Craig: Yeah. He beats the shit outta her. Again, 

Todd: this little girl, I mean, of course she’s a possessed girl, but once again.

Not something you see often in the movies. 

Craig: Well, and she’s a possessed girl according to Mirta. Like and, and like, yeah, I believe her. I believe her. But she’s just really acting like a little girl and Yeah, 

Todd: she’s crying, screaming, talking like a little 

Craig: right. And he’s just beating the crap out of her. 

Todd: He’s, 

Craig: anyway.

Todd: He’s just very, again, I really think this movie is saying something about this machismo thing. The, the real problem here is this guy is just acting on impulse and instinct and emotion, and so he’s breaking these rules left and right to a comical degree. Like they go inside and they sort of figure out where he is because they see this powder and a conveniently placed.

Mallet or hammer, whatever on the stage, it looks like there’s been a lot of scuffling and it doesn’t take them long to figure out that if they pry up the very loose boards on the stage, all of the adults’ bodies are down there and what that powder was was lime. I mean, a girl literally comes in and tells them, oh, we covered it with lime to protect the bodies.

I mean, it’s so, it’s so interesting how this demon, these demon possessed children are at once a threat, but not really. They’re around and they’re even interacting with them, and they’re telling them things. They’re lying to them, but then they’re telling them useful information. And so she starts setting up her stuff.

She’s like, they’re, you know, the, the big guy’s probably under there. So he digs through and sure enough he’s under there. 

Craig: Well, yes, underneath a ton of bodies. Like they killed all their teachers and, and hid them all under 

Todd: there. Right. And she asks him to go out to the car and get the supplies, but don’t run.

What does he do? He starts running. She’s like, I told you not to run. So he is like, okay. So he walks slowly through them and then again outside, runs to the car, comes back in. It’s all about like you’re not supposed to. To make them think you’re scared. Right. Right. You’re not supposed to startle them or, or anything like that.

So he brings in the equipment, she starts setting up this very complicated contraption. And like I said, man, it looks complicated, but I have no idea what you do with it. ’cause we never see it happen. Yeah. And in the meantime, she’s giving him instruction. She’s like, don’t kill him. And, and it looks like he’s about to, this girl then goes in and comes in with the useful information.

I can’t remember why he wants it, but she’s like, there’s an ax in the room over there. And Marta says, no, she’s lying to you. Don’t leave me. I I need you here. And what does he do? He, he leaves her? Yeah. He goes to the other room to get the ax, and of course she’s lying. We all knew it. There’s no ax in there.

Mm-hmm. The kids lock him in there by stringing some wire around the door, handles on the other side. And while he’s locked in there, they attack Marta, beat her and ca and, and drag her out. And 

Craig: break her contraption. Yes. So like the fixer who screwed is dead. Right? They’re totally screwed. This guy, man, I just wanted to beat him.

I wanted to beat this guy. I understand your frustration. At the same time, I totally understand. He’s terrified and like he’s. Not just scared in the moment, but he’s constantly always thinking about his kids. He, he, he has to fix this to save his kids, and he doesn’t really know what to do. Now, this lady’s dead, so he just picks up the heaviest piece of her contraption and beats the rotten guy.

To death with it. Mm-hmm. I can’t say enough how great these effects are. By the way, the gore effects are fantastic. Yeah, they, it’s disgusting. It looks so good. So, so he kills that guy and then a bloody demon child. Is born out of that guy’s body. Yep. And like it’s just this naked kid covered in blood and it walks by Pedro and marks his forehead with blood like, like streaks his forehead with blood and then just walks away with the other kids to me.

It seemed in this moment, and I think that this is the truth, that it has succeeded in what it was trying to do like this. This is it. Like, yeah, you made this happen. What? What? This thing wanted to happen now has happened. It has been birthed into the world, and it just walks off into the sunrise with the other kids.

So he goes home. 

Todd: He does, and I mean, that’s. Practically all there is to it. He goes home, his older son is uh, coughing up some hair. Did he eat? The grandmother? 

Craig: Yes. Okay. So it’s easy to forget that this all happened over the course of one night. And right earlier in the night, that neighbor boy had shown up and they had said, you can stay, but you have to sleep in the barn.

Well, Jimmy goes out there and the morning and the kid tells him, he’s like, something came over me and I killed my mom. And I ate her. Yeah. And isn’t 

Todd: he also. The one who killed the fixer who was coming. Yes. 

Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was compelled. There was a voice in his head that told him to kill him and eat him.

That’s right. He didn’t eat his mom. He killed that guy and he fed. Some of them to the pigs and he ate some of them. And he says the same thing happened to your mom. And so then Pedro’s in there with his oldest son and the oldest son starts coughing and the dad being a good dad, you know, sticks his fingers in his mouth, trying to clear whatever it is out of his throat and he starts spitting up blood.

And then the dad starts pulling hair out and he pulls out a chunk and the grandmother’s necklace is in the chunk. So yeah, the kid ate. The grandmother and then Pedro and Jimmy, the adult brothers, meet in the yard and weep. And that’s the end. That’s it. Bleak as hell. Oh my God. It has been so long since I have seen a movie this bleak.

It was so. Bleak. That’s why I said at the beginning, it’s difficult to say, oh yeah, I loved that movie ’cause oh my god, it’s, it’s, everything goes wrong. The heroes of the movie lose and they lose everything and it’s just, and evil is out and who knows what’s gonna happen. It’s right. It’s terrible. I did really like the movie in terms of its quality.

I think it’s a great movie, and I think if you’re a fan of horror or just really good filmmaking, you should definitely watch it. It is not for the squeamish, the week of stomach. Yeah, right. Yeah. It’s not for the squeamish at all. And if you’re in. A dark place, not right now, to a light place. Put it, put it on the shelf until you’re feeling better.

’cause it is dark and bleak. But it is a really well made movie. I was, I impressed. 

Todd: It’s really good. I mean, uh, I remember the first time I saw it, just the emotional punch and of the end where this poor guy had done everything wrong and I think almost single-handedly took, made all the steps that were necessary for his entire family to be destroyed and for this evil demon child to be unleashed around the world almost entirely his fault.

Well, 

Craig: it’s hard. I wouldn’t say it’s his fault because it’s, oh, come on, substantial. It’s, he made lots of mistakes, but it’s 

Todd: circumstantial, I think. But he should have known better. No, no demons. The mistakes he made were when he was like actually told by people, do not do this. You know, you’re not supposed to do this.

And he fricking did it anyway. All, every time. Okay. Right from moving the body from the 

Craig: beginning to letting, so tell me that you’re surrounded by demon children, everything’s urgent, and you know people are gonna die, including maybe your own kids and you’re not gonna run, like, you’re just going to like Well, I get, I get what you’re saying.

He did keep breaking the rules. I am just saying like the whole thing happened to him. I think that the demon makes a point of constantly taunting him, telling him. It’s his fault. This 

Todd: is all your fault. I’m sorry. Maybe I’m naive, but if I were surrounded by children, while the only expert in the room who has been right about everything, including has already proven that these kids are liars, is telling me, remember, these kids are liars.

I need you in here to finish this. No, I wouldn’t go running. I would be like, this is what we do. Like this is the best. This is it. Like why would I suddenly believe these kids when they both demonstrably lied to me out in the truck, which was exactly what that woman said they would do. 

Craig: I don’t think that I could think rationally in those moments.

Oh, okay. I think that the demon was constantly trying to convince him that it was his fault, but I kind of thought the point of it. Yeah, he made lots of mistakes, but I. It’s an unusual situation. I, I get, I, I, I get what you’re saying. I, I think I just, understatement 

Todd: of the year. 

Craig: I just feel so bad for him.

Like he didn’t do anything wrong. Like, I don’t know, the mom said that he was what, like an absent father or something. Like he wasn’t a perfect guy, but he loved his kids and he didn’t do anything terrible to bring this on. Self. So I don’t know. I have a difficult time blaming him, but I get it. I get it. I mean he did, do you know there, there are rules.

They like if the movie is going to make a point of saying there are rules, specifically seven of them, and here’s what they are, and then he goes and breaks them all. I understand how that can be frustrating. 

Todd: They all break them. The, everybody who’s told don’t shoot them, goes right out and shoots them. It, to me, it’s just kind of about like all of this society falling apart because we just decided to follow our own emotions instead of stick with the protocol, you know, for the safety of everybody else.

Like the rules are there for a reason, but now you’re in the heat of the moment and you just, you just ignore it even when people are reminding you. I mean, it’s one thing. You know, to just in the heat of passion, pull up a gun and wanna shoot that thing. But when people are literally saying, do not shoot it, you know, and you’re just going and doing it anyway, like, that’s on you buddy.

I say, anyway. What, what a great movie. Thank you to all of the people who requested it, and thank you so much to our patrons who chose it. We had a blast talking about this. And, uh, if you would like to join that Patron club, just go to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. We have lots of. Goodies back there for you.

We have Mini sos, we have complete un edited versions of our podcast. We have the ever-growing book club that’s been exciting. If that sounds great to you or join our horror book club, you can go back there as well. Just five bucks a month gets you access to all this. And of course, our ondy gratitude. Uh, you can go to our website, chainsaw horror.com and you can, uh, leave us a message there either by voice or you can send us an email.

We’d love to hear from you. We will definitely respond to you, and if you leave us a voice message, which is just a click on the Speak to us link, we will play it back on air as long as it’s decent, I guess, and nice. Did I just invite all of the indecent? I sure hope so. Anyway, without further ado, thank you guys so much for listening.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

In this week’s episode, Todd and Craig delve into the 1982 Australian horror film, ‘Next of Kin.’ Directed by Tony Williams and praised by Quentin Tarantino as Australia’s answer to ‘The Shining,’ the film presents a gothic mystery that unfolds in an old house turned care facility.

While Todd appreciates its stylistic cinematography and slow-burn narrative, Craig finds the story less engaging. We duo explore the film’s plot, characters, and unique visual elements, discussing whether it’s a hidden gem or an overlooked oddity.

\Tune in for a thorough analysis and share your thoughts on this intriguing piece of horror cinema!

Episode #454, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast.

Todd: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, this week’s movie I chose and I can’t really tell you why. I stumbled across it a little while ago, and I think. I was entranced by the idea that this might be some eighties horror movie that we have overlooked. Quentin Tarantino has cited it as, uh, Australia’s version of The Shining and as extremely complimentary of it.

In fact, apparently based a couple shots in the one of its Kill Bill movies directly on some of the shots in this film. So we hadn’t done an Australian movie, I think in a while, if ever, I can’t remember. But, uh, this is actually an Australian film directed and written by New Zealanders, but it was filmed in Australia, and it is 1982’s, Next Of Kin.

Hadn’t seen it until now. How about you, Craig? Have you ever heard of this one?

Craig: No. I couldn’t even remember what we were doing when I was trying to get ready to watch it yesterday and I pulled it up and I saw next of Ken and I was like, surely not that Patrick Swayze movie. My dad was a big fan of Patrick Swayze’s, like.

Tough guy movies like Roadhouse and Next of Kin, and I thought, surely it won’t be that. And it’s not. And it’s not. I kind of wish it was, to be honest. Oh no. So you weren’t a fan, huh? No, I, I told I texted you. You did. I just don’t get it. And honestly, I, I was watching the movie and I was distracted. There’s a, I’ve got a lot going on, but I kept thinking I must be missing something.

I’m, I’m clearly, I, I looked away at the wrong moment. I’m missing something. And I finished the movie feeling that way, and then I went and read the plot summary on Wikipedia and I was like, no, I don’t think I missed anything. I just don’t get it. Like, as far as the, the narrative is concerned. I get it. I think it’s convoluted.

I just didn’t, you know, I’m a big fan of Quentin Tarantino. I think he’s a weird guy, but I think he makes. Really cool movies. Yeah. So I have a lot of respect for his opinions on film and I get it. Like it’s definitely got a grindhouse feel and it’s shot in such a way that I’m like, I see that, I see where Tarantino’s, you know, taking inspiration from that.

I don’t know, I just, I couldn’t get in. I couldn’t get into it. Did you really feel this was grindhouse? Not grindhouse, just No, no, no, no. That’s probably the wrong word. I’d probably throw that word around to, because it’s not like super violent. Maybe just more seventies, the way that it’s shot. Like, yeah. I, I think maybe it’s more the cinematography than.

Any kind of particular genre, but it, it reminded me of other movies that we’ve done that have tried to emulate that, like House of the Devil. Mm. Or, or it reminded me of, I mean, ’cause it’s, it’s kind of, or at least at, at at points you think it is kind of a haunted house kind of movie. It, it kind of reminded me of burnt offerings.

It just had that very seventies feel to it, which. I think Tarantino tries to emulate. Right? He loves that and it’s cool and I like that. So I get where he’s taking inspiration there. As far as it, you know, I read probably the same thing that you did and he talked about it’s pacing and whatnot, and I just, I found the pacing to be really slow.

Sure, yeah. It’s a slow burn. Maybe that was deliberate and that’s fine. Maybe I just wasn’t in the mood for it, but it, it just didn’t do a whole lot for me. I have a feeling you feel very differently. 

Todd: Yeah, I kind of do, but I did sit down. I have to admit, I sat down and watched it. I was already feeling tired, but I had to watch it for.

For us to be, to do this in the morning, and I’m, uh, I’m a little jet lagged as well, so I sat down to watch it and I watched the first hour and I was very focused on the movie. I was by myself. I had it mostly full screen while I was typing notes in on the other side. And after about an hour, in realizing I had about a half an hour left to go and the movie hadn’t really picked up.

You know, right at that point I said, you know what, I’m gonna have to, I’m falling asleep. I love, I liked it. I really was enjoying it, but I, because of the pacing, I was like, I’m gonna have to turn this off and finish it in the morning, which is exactly what I did, and I’m glad I did that because I think I probably would’ve missed things or, you know, or I might have fallen asleep because it doesn’t really kick in.

Until the very end. But you know what, that actually reminds me of a lot of films that we really like. I have, I was getting strong Gilo vibes from this. I think this movie definitely is pulling inspiration from Ello. I think it’s pulling inspiration from Kubrick. I do feel like there’s a lot of the shining inspiration in here.

I thought that the cinematography, and I think it was the cinematography and the style that really pulled me in at first because I was like, this is a really. Really well-made film. The color is gorgeous. The lighting is gorgeous. The camera angles and the way that they, it has a very dynamic camera that moves in very interesting ways, and I was pulled in by that alone.

And I sort of let that wash over me and as it was going on, I said, you know, this is almost, this is almost Susperia. Susperia follows a similar pattern of, it’s very stylish. We’re really in this woman’s head. For the majority of the film, it’s very gothic in scope and in a sense it’s very much like susperia where this woman, it’s about a woman who comes to an old house and creepy things are ha are maybe happening, but there’s not a lot of evidence that anything terribly sinister is going on.

But there’s just, you can tell she’s unsettled and you’re not exactly sure why. Where this is all going until the very end where it kicks into high gear and it turns out, yep, there was a mystery and there was a murder thing happening, and, and now she’s in trouble. And then it gets really intense for, you know, the last, uh, 10 or 15 minutes or so.

And I didn’t mind that at all actually, because, uh. I was really pulled in to the movie before that, just by the setting and the, and the pacing and just this feeling that there is probably something here going on that’s all gonna come together by the end. And did it. I. I think it more or less did. I’ve seen reviews online that said, one I had to pull out.

I think this was just some user review on IMDB, but this person said, next of kin is a slower than slow developing thriller with only a few worthwhile moments, but sadly, a whole lot of pointless filling and meaningless mystery building. I mean. I suppose this, that’s kind of how I feel about it. Frankly.

It’s a take, but you could take that same review and tack it onto The Shining, you know? 

Craig: I don’t know. No, I think The Shining was far more visually stimulating and there was just a lot more. Intrigue. Sure. There, there was a lot more going on and it was far more suspenseful. I didn’t really find this, all that suspenseful.

I, I think to compare it to Susperia as being very generous because I’ve seen Susperia exactly once, probably 20 years ago, but I remember it being highly stylized. And I remember so much going on with, you know, experimenting with color and, and, and, and you said something about the color in this movie.

Nothing stuck out to me in that really way. I mean, I didn’t think it was poorly shot. Wow. I didn’t think it was poorly shot. I just thought it was fairly typical. Oh God. I didn’t feel that way at all. No. Well, you are more of an expert on that kind of stuff than I am. I’m just your casual 

Todd: viewer. I don’t think you have to be an expert.

I mean, either. Either you felt something or you didn’t. I mean, it should be invisible. You know, I, I think there’s an argument that if, if the cinematography calls too much attention to itself, then it takes you out of the story, right? Like, 

Craig: yeah, that’s fine. You 

Todd: don’t want a movie where all you’re doing is, man, that’s a great shot, man.

That’s a great shot, man. That’s a great shot. Instead of just being engrossed in the, in. The film itself and, and letting the shots do their work invisibly. I don’t know. I just thought there were a ton of really amazing shots and it was an interesting use of slow motion. There was a lot of light and shadow play.

I thought that there were some just beautiful camera moves that we’ll probably talk about as we walk through the plot, but 

Craig: maybe you’ll have to. I, I mean, I’m not trying to be contrary, I’m just. Like, yeah, I know. Talking about the, the lighting, there were a couple of scenes that were so dark that I couldn’t see anything at all and I was watching it in the pitch black.

Todd: The sex scene. 

Craig: The sex scene, yes. And at least one other one too. I don’t know. We can, when, when we get to the sex scene, I still thought it was hot. ’cause we can talk about it later, but like, almost. Almost pitch black, at least that one. And then, and again, I’m, this, I’m not being critical. This is a thing that was very typical of these movies.

There were lots of day for night shots that were clearly day for night. Sure. Ew. So I just didn’t, I just wasn’t blown away by it. And I’m, I’m, I’m sitting here and I’m, I’m being critical. I don’t think it’s a bad movie at all. In fact, I think it’s a good movie. It just didn’t. Right. It just didn’t do much for me.

I’m sitting here thinking of the, the comments that I’m gonna get. Like, he’s so stupid. He just didn’t get it and he didn’t give it a chance. Like, I get it. You don’t have to come at me. You don’t have to come at me. You’re probably right. You’re probably right. It’s probably a masterpiece and I just don’t get it.

Well, but I don’t get. 

Todd: No, you’re not the only one that feels that way. So I mean, you know, don’t, don’t self-censor here, bud. We’re okay. I mean, I think, I think this is definitely, and I will say it straight out, I think this is a movie that’s definitely gonna appeal to some people and it’s gonna not appeal to others.

And I don’t think it’s quite as universal as The Shining, which just kind of everybody loves, because you’re right, there’s a lot more intrigue inserted in there. And this one is a far slower burn. There’s not a lot of mystery left at the end of the day. Whereas with The Shining, you know, you’re just kind of left with so many questions.

Craig: But with The Shining too, I feel like the source material is so good. Like it’s a, a really interesting, and, I mean, haunted houses aren’t original, but it’s a, a fairly original take on it. Yeah. And this story. Ultimately typical. It’s, it’s typical. And it’s also, I would say it’s more typical for film than it is for literature.

Maybe that’s a difference between the two also, but it’s convoluted. Like you can put all the pieces together, but ultimately it’s. Stupid. Now, wait a second. 

Todd: When you said this is more typical film than literature, I found this to be just a gothic tale through and through. I mean, 

Craig: come on, I’m talking very sp not, not necessarily in, so I’m talking specifically in plot and I, I guess you’re right.

I, I, okay. So the closest thing that I would. Compare it to, off the top of my head would be Jane Eyre. Yes. Where spoiler alert for Jane Eyre, if you care about, you know, Victorian literature. But it’s this romance between this girl and this handsome, wealthy, aloof man. And this girl keeps thinking, she’s like seeing this ghostly woman around.

And he’s like, no, no, you’re, you’re crazy. It’s nothing. And then finally she finds woman being kept captive. In the attic. Yep. And it’s his crazy ex-wife who he keeps locked in the attic. I would say that. In terms of story, this is somewhat similar. Like it’s kind of seems like it’s one thing for a while and then it, I don’t know.

I, I thought that the big reveal at the end I thought was just kind of 

Todd: corny. Well, woman gets a letter that now her mother is dead and the inheritance of the mansion that her mother owned is now hers. She goes off to the mansion out in the countryside. Lots of rain and storms and things like that.

There’s uh, some red, that location was gorgeous, by the 

Craig: way. It was, it was, it was, uh, man, this big Ivy covered tan brick mansion. It was, it was so cool. 

Todd: It’s funny, this is an Australian movie because this is not what you think of Australia, you know? This looks like an English countryside type manner or whatever it does.

And then comes and then it turns out her family has secrets. There’s history, there’s a diary that she discovers, you know, that she reads about her mother, which, uh, alludes to secrets in the family past. There’s like memories of hers as a child that are suddenly coming to the forefront based on things that she’s finding in.

There 

Craig: were those diaries lined up like encyclopedias. Labeled by year and printed on the bookshelf. 

Todd: And that was, I was, I’d like to think you could probably buy a blank, uh, diary that is printed and embossed with your name and the year on it, you know, that you could fill in. I suppose that’s a thing. 

Craig: I just loved the idea of them being like an like encyclopedia, like she’s pulling them down by year and apparently this woman wrote in her diary from the time she was very, very young because she, the, one of the first things that she reads is like.

Did she have a sister? She has a sister, right? Or 

Todd: something. Her mother or her. 

Craig: Her mother? 

Todd: Yes. Her mother has a, yeah, she has an aunt. That’s key to the whole story. Yeah. 

Craig: Right. But I was a little bit confused by that. But she talks about how she and her sister were talking about how they’d like to make the house an, I think they call it an old folks home, which is what I would probably call it too.

But that’s maybe not the nicest thing to say, and it is. So, so when she inherits it, it’s not just a big house for her to live in. It’s actually care facility, 

Todd: right? There’s still residents in there. Quite 

Craig: a few, yeah. But it looks like a nice place and it’s ran by this woman named Connie and some doctor.

And I didn’t write down anybody, any of the actors’ names ’cause they didn’t know any of them until I read the trivia because eventually, and this happens a little bit later, she gets established in the house. Kind of weird things start happening, but eventually she. Meets up with this guy that she knew apparently before she left Barney, who’s played by John Jarrett, who is from probably the only, or at least the biggest Australian horror franchise, the Wolf Creek franchise.

He’s the bad guy in that movie. It’s crazy. Yeah. He’s very young and very handsome. Here, but he’s good looking in those movies. I mean, that’s, that’s part of what makes him a good villain. Is he True initially comes across as kind of very charming. I, I feel like you’re not a big fan of those movies. I liked them.

Todd: I think. Yeah, you probably remember I said I, I absolutely hated the, I mean, we are gonna have to do at some point, and maybe I’ll revise my feelings about it after. 450 horror movies under my belt. Right. But I just remember thinking that was the most, um, just a brutal movie with just celebrated brutality.

And there, there was, didn’t have much else going for it. That’s, that’s how I felt about it. 

Craig: I disagree, but I think it’s a fair, or I think it’s a fair assessment. But, but what did I skip? I mean, the mom’s diary also, uh, new, a new resident shows up. 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah. A new resident shows up and she’s a little creeped out by that, but you don’t really know why.

You know it’s just a woman being pushed in a wheelchair by a younger man who, uh, yeah. But weird 

Craig: stuff happens. Like, yeah, lightning strikes a tree that falls right in front of the car that’s bringing the new resident. I’m like, well, that seems ominous, by the way. How did that, how did they do 

Todd: that? I don’t know.

That was amazing. That was a straight on shot, no cutaways. A medium shot of this van pulling up and lightning strikes this tree and it falls down in front of it. It was so convincing and I, I just was just like, how did they do that? It’s not animated, I don’t think. It wasn’t, I thought it was cool. But Yeah, yeah, you’re right, you’re right.

I, I didn’t think about that, but yeah, that was a bad omen. And he pulls her out of the car and sticks a wheelchair out and pulls her outta the car, puts her in the wheelchair, but then they can’t get the wheelchair going. So then Connie just comes out with an umbrella, ushers her in with a, with a cane.

Right. 

Craig: But, but the other ominous thing that immediately happens is they. Somehow get locked out of the house. 

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: Like the door slams and they get locked out and somebody has to come let them out from inside. Now, I don’t know if. They were going for this, but I mean, ultimately you could make an argument that it would make sense, like something is trying to keep them out.

Hmm. 

Todd: That’s a good point. Although, you know, this is kind of downplayed because we don’t really see much of, well we don’t really don’t see any of this woman again. 

Craig: No. 

Todd: We see the guy again. She’s just a very 

Craig: un she’s just an old woman in a wheelchair. Yeah, I, I thought her son. Seemed like a weirdo from the beginning.

I’m like, oh, who’s this weirdo? 

Todd: He’s like the first person I suppose that we can attribute to who is this strange figure that she keeps seeing. She keeps seeing this strange figure usually in silhouette, in the distance somewhere, maybe outside in the woods, maybe she sees figures in the, in the garden.

When she’s upstairs looking out her window, she sees a figure in the window at some point once or twice. So there’s this kind of idea she’s being watched 

Craig: or. That she’s crazy. Yes. Or that the house is haunted because her mom’s diary says that she has seen somebody wa seen and heard somebody wandering around the house, which when 

Todd: you think about it, I mean, it’s an old folks home.

I mean, like if there’s a whole bunch of people living in there, you know, it’s not like you’re by yourself and you hear. Creepy footsteps and things. Well, 

Craig: when people say that to her, like when, when she says to Connie or whatever that lady’s name is, like, you know, I, I heard somebody walking around. Well, yeah, that was probably Mr.

So-and-so, he walks around at night, like there’s another part where she walks into a bathroom and all of the faucets are running and the, the sink and the tub are overflowing, and that’s spooky or whatever. And Connie’s like, well. I guess it must have been one of the residents, like 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: it, it’s, it’s 

Todd: all easily explained.

Exactly, which I liked. I mean, I thought that was good. You, it’s subtle, but, but you know, then you can just say, well, not a lot happens, right? I mean, you’re either gonna be kind of creeped out by it or be a little intrigued by what could be going on, or you just be like, all right, well, show me the, show me the interesting stuff.

I, I think one of the more. Interesting things that happens is that at some point she gets in her car and drives away, and as she’s going down the road, that guy is leaving with the van, that young guy who had dropped off the resident and he pulls up beside her and it’s hard to tell if he’s like. Trying to hit on her if he’s trying to drop her off the road, if he’s just weird, but they exchanged some looks and he seems to be just wanting to ride alongside her for a while, and he’s giving her this creepy grin and eventually he just pulls ahead and disappears.

Craig: No, that that 

Todd: scene was ridiculous. 

Craig: I would’ve called the police. Like I don’t even know if I, I don’t care if that was my sister. Yes, he was. He pulled first. He ran right up on her in the back and then veered around next to her. Now I think, I may be mistaken, but I think this is a dirt road is around on dirt roads.

No. Yeah, and he’s in a huge van, a huge full size. Seventies rape van with the, like, I think the windows all blacked out. Right? And she’s just in a regular car and he’s not, I mean, yeah, he’s just kind of looking at her like, ha ha, isn’t this funny? But then he’s all, he’s veering towards her a little bit more than once.

I mean, it’s not a little bit like, oh, oh, just a little bit. Well, no big deal in his huge van on a dirt road going 40 miles an hour. He’s just veering towards her a little bit. That’s. Yeah. That’s funny. It’s hard to tell, but then she acts like, I don’t feel, I don’t think she ever mentions it again. Exactly.

Well, that was a weird thing that 

Todd: happened. Yeah. Well, one thing about this girl that I liked is that she’s kind of a blank slate like. You could maybe even say she was a flat character, but I would just say she’s an everyday person. She’s just kind of an ordinary gal, and there’s nothing wrong with that, you know?

In fact, maybe that’s a good thing because it gives her this credibility. We don’t have any real reason to believe she’s crazy. No, except for the fact that weird things are happening and. It could just be her, but there’s nothing to indicate that she’s got some, her, she herself has this weird past or whatnot, but she is having these dreams, right?

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: She’s having these dreams of, and that are getting more, more intense of her as a child. And so you solely start to realize that she’s had experience in this house as a kid. I thought it was interesting that, you know, she’s going through the house at one point, she goes up to the attic, she picks up a ball that’s like a, it’s like a red volleyball, and then seems interested in it, but then tosses it aside and you’re, I’m just kinda like, what’s that about?

And later in her dream we realized, or maybe she. Remembers for the first time, which is, I think what it is, is oh, maybe that triggered something in her memory, because as a girl, she played with that ball. Mm-hmm. 

Craig: There was some discussion that somebody in the mom’s diary it, it, it talked about who gave her that ball.

It was some man, I don’t remember who it was and I don’t know that it’s necessarily important, but yeah, we’re told about it and then we see it eventually. So like we see it a few times I feel like, but eventually, like, and it’s always just her in this hallway. This hallway in the house where she is now, and it’s exactly the same now as it was then.

But eventually she like ends up in the bathroom and the shower curtain is pulled, but she throws the ball into the tub and when she goes to retrieve it, she finds a bloated. Dead guy there. Yeah. But then that happens in real time too. 

Todd: We see that dream in pieces. We don’t see that she has actually discovered a bloated dead body until much later in the movie when other stuff has happened.

And so the idea is that this girl had some kind of trauma that was directly connected to this house when she was a girl. She just forgot about it. I mean, what’s kind of, what’s more gothic than that? You know? I mean, right. It’s something that haunts her and she’s, up until that point, she’s not quite sure.

Why she’s so afraid of the hallway and why these things that are just unsettling her so much until one of the residents that she’s kind of friendly with named Lance. I think she has a history with him too, right? ’cause she immediately, maybe 

Craig: he gave her the ball. I don’t know. You 

Todd: might be him, right?

Because what? She’s one of the first people we see. She has a fondness for him. Yeah. And he’s an older guy who’s getting along. Seems to be okay, but. There’s a scene later where he gets in the bathtub of, I guess this is a shared bathroom. Yeah. On this hallway. It must be. I think so. And he gets in the bathtub.

I thought this was a very creepy scene. Again, a little reminiscent of the shining in some ways. Yeah, it was creepy. He’s taking his clothes off and he goes to step in. By the way, shot for shot. This whole sequence was gorgeous. Like so Well done. 

Craig: Yeah, it, it looked really good. 

Todd: He steps into the tub and then we see underwater his foot step onto this bloated dead body.

Mm-hmm. Which was so shocking. That was creepy. And then we see it from above. And then there’s this immediate transition, which is. Incredible. From above where they are now. She’s not there. She’s off seeing Barney, but it’s, uh, Connie and, and a bunch of the other people, including this doctor who we haven’t mentioned yet, who, uh, is taking him out of the tub and checking his body so he’s dead.

So it turns out, as she’s reading the diary, this is not the first time someone had been found dead in the top. Mm-hmm. In fact, it’s not even like the third or fourth time. No.

So indeed that sent, I think, I think that event happening, pieced together with her, reading her mother’s account, completes the memory for her. And then we see that she, in fact, had discovered someone in the tub. That’s right. At first when she was a girl. So, uh, you know, that’s intriguing, right? So it’s starting to build towards something, but gosh, it takes a while to get there.

But it is dropping, you know, little bits and pieces in place so that, I think when we do get to that moment, I felt satisfied. I thought, oh, okay. Now we’ve, we’ve found out what the dreams are about. Now I understand the connection between this ball and why she. Freaked out. I guess I would be too, if I had repressed memories of finding a dead body while I was playing around in this house when I was a girl, I 

Craig: suppose.

I mean, that’s mostly the exciting stuff that happens in the beginning. I mean, more spooky stuff keeps happening, but then there’s a little interlude where she meets her man, I guess. Barney. Barney, 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: John Jarrett, who, again, very handsome, very charming, 

Todd: favorite 

Craig: part of the movie. Um, yeah, and they, they hang out.

They. Go swimming. They visit the her mom’s grave and she says something like, my mom and I had a weird relationship. She had secrets. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: Okay. So there’s some, there’s some kind of history with the mom, which also is very. To me ambiguous. Uh, I don’t know. 

Todd: Yeah, you do kind of wonder, well, what happened?

What, when did you not, did you just grow up and then move or, yeah. Like 

Craig: why did she leave? 

Todd: Yeah. Right. Like 

Craig: they, they make a big deal out of the fact that she left. I mean, people remember her, you know, she’s got this guy that she clearly has history with. Other people remember her from when she was young, but at some point she left and never came back.

And I think that they say like, she never even like called or like, yeah, she completely separated herself from it. Why, like, 

Todd: good question. 

Craig: I, I, I don’t think that’s ever explained 

Todd: true. 

Craig: And, and that’s fine ’cause it’s not really all that important. Whatever. She’s back now. But again, they’re hanging out and they’re just like traipsing through the woods and she thinks she sees somebody watching them.

And we do too. Are we seeing from her perspective, is this an objective perspective? We don’t know. But when she points it out to Barney, he doesn’t see anything and he goes and checks and there’s nobody there. Yeah. So again, there’s all these, I’m gonna go ahead and call them Mr. X, because I feel like we’ve already alluded to the fact that there is something going on.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: But up until this point, we don’t know. She could just be crazy. 

Todd: Yeah. Probably about halfway through the movie at this point, when everyone leaves on a, on a scenic tour somewhere, basically. Yeah, everybody, it’s convenient way to get everyone out. Mostly everyone outta the house, they’re, they’re all getting on the bus except for LANs.

This is weird. This is when things started to get really strange, right? 

Craig: I, yeah, I feel like, are you jumping ahead? ’cause I don’t feel like they all leave yet, but I thought you were just talking about how like Barney goes off to a party with another girl. 

Todd: Oh yeah, Carol, that’s true. There’s the whole Carol thing, which I don’t get.

Craig: And then there’s like Linda overhears, Connie, the woman who. Is kind of the head nurse or something, I guess. And, and the doctor who we haven’t talked about much, I mean he seems, he’s very friendly with her, with Linda and Nice. He doesn’t seem threatening or to have any agenda, but she overhears those two talking about some sh Should we tell her, 

Clip: shouldn’t we tell Linda at least what for?

It’s just a coincidence if you are sure. I was here then you weren’t 

Craig: trust me. So I again, ultimately I don’t really know what they were talking about. I do. Okay. Well then maybe you can reveal it at the appropriate time. Yeah, yeah. But it just seems very suspicious to her. And then she starts looking through records, like through a ledger, and she keeps seeing this name of like Dr.

Rb with like Rita in. Parentheses and I didn’t know, like did she already know who that person was? 

Todd: Yeah, she did, but we, we have no idea. That’s maddening. ’cause it takes a while for her to bring it up, I guess if we were really paying attention. She does refer to her Aunt Rita once or twice, I mean, early when she finds a diary, one of the first things she sees is a photo of her, her mom and her mom’s sister together as, as girls.

And some one or two lines that her mom references her sis. But that’s about it. You’re right. She sees that in there. And so we put a pin in that until later and this morning everyone goes on this tour bus and Linda can’t find Lance, 

Craig: you are, you are. So excited to get to that tour, and I’m not exactly sure why, but there, there was a whole series then of very, of spooky things that happened that ultimately nothing came of like there’s cat scares and she hears like she’s on the phone with Barney and then he gets cut off and she hears heavy breathing on the other line.

Yeah. 

Todd: And the in the water. Water in her bath, in her bathroom, I mean, 

Craig: right. She has another, the water in the bathroom, she has another dream where she sees like the naked guy outside her window, but like it’s water and he’s swimming and then, oh, that was cool. And then somebody actually does sneak into her room and you don’t know who it is, but it just turns out it’s Barney.

And that’s when they have that sweaty. Sex. Sex scene. 

Todd: Yeah. Okay. Can I, can I talk about the tour now? 

Craig: Well, I wanted, I, I wanted to mention the sex scene because it was so dark and I was all you could see, and to be, again, I’ll, I’ll admit I found it kind of sexy. All you could see was the glisten. Of their skin.

Yeah. And the fine glisten of the fur of his back.

And so it was just kind of like a, like silvery silhouettes, uhhuh. That you could see. But I was disappointed because it looked really sexy and I wanted to see more of it. But 

Todd: your mind filled in the blanks a little bit, I’m sure. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I’ll be on this. No, I did too. I wanted to see more of her and, and, and it’s funny, she takes her shirt off a couple times and takes some showers in here, but they’re very modest about the nudity.

I mean, there’s just like a little side boob once or twice, and that’s it. 

Craig: Yeah. She takes off her clothes a couple of times, wants to get dressed, and wants to get in and out of the shower, but I don’t think you ever see her from the front. No. I think, uh, she’s always shot from the back. 

Todd: It’s very tasteful.

You know, that kind of el I would say kind of elevates in a way the, not, not the tasteful movies can’t have nudity in them. Absolutely not. But, you know, you know. Right. Just kind of like separates it from Grindhouse there, for example. Fair. Yeah. I, yeah. Yeah. But okay. So yeah, you’re right. So all this happens and there’s these creepy things and stuff, and my point is, we’re halfway through the movie now, so it’s, it is a slow burn, but it’s not like a whole bunch of stuff doesn’t happen.

You know, before we get to the 45 minute mark, you know, which I’m just addressing, like that comment I read from. From online. I mean, either you’re intrigued by it, you’re happy to get these things dripped out to you and, and trusting that they’re all gonna make more sense later, or, you know, you’re getting impatient.

And I think I can feel that I would watch this movie in a different setting, maybe in a different mood, and I would maybe fall on the more impatient side. I can totally get that 

Craig: I was on the impatient side because it’s, you know, I just listed off a bunch of things that happen, but they all just seem random and ultimately they are Whoa.

Not really. I mean, you know, we, well, we, we keep, they all have a drawing comparisons to the Shining in, in, in the Shining, the things that happen. I don’t know, you know, I’m such a fan of that movie and I’ve seen it a bazillion times. Maybe if I was seeing it now for the first time, I would feel differently.

But it seemed like all of those things were connected, like they were all building. Towards something or 

Todd: they are in this movie too. But I just think The Shining is more focused because it’s just three people. Yeah, that’s fair. It’s three people in an empty house. It doesn’t bring in their family history real.

I mean, you know, it’s the alcoholism, whatnot. What is they? Yeah. But you know, aside from that, like that’s really not. There’s no mystery there to unpack. It’s just like this house is slowly getting to them, to this guy in its way. And, uh, you know, this I think is just, again, it’s just more of a gothic mystery where there’s a past and it’s coming back into the present to haunt this person, and it’s all gonna come to a head and, and become present, you know?

So, yeah, I just think it’s a different kind of narrative than the shiny, I guess. That’s fine. 

Craig: It does. I mean, it does all ultimately kind of tie together. I just think that the way that it ties together is silly. Like, 

Todd: okay, 

Craig: the person who. Or. Person, persons, whatever, who are responsible for all these weird things happen, just happen to be like bathroom obsessed generationally.

Todd: Right. 

Craig: They had a definite modus operandi, didn’t they? Okay, that’s fine. Yeah, whatever. Anyway, so then they, all the old folks get on a bus. 

Todd: You’re right. Thank you. Finally, Jesus, all the old folks get on a bus, but this is the whole reason I just wanted to jump here is because this is where everything I think starts to pick up and get even more strange.

And there’s some things here that I am not even sure I understand. Linda can’t find Lance since he discovered the body. I think he’s had a bit of a stroke and so it doesn’t seem like he’s gonna go on the trip, but he is. In the fountain and he fishes a red hat out of the fountain, which must be very important because there’s slowmo, there’s a nice bit of slowmo use in this movie that I really like.

But um, he fishes this red hat out of the, outta the fountain and she sees it and she’s disturbed by it. I was thinking, don’t look now right away. Yeah. Absolutely, and I was again later too. I have to think that this movie is just deliberately putting some nods towards that. I don’t know. I don’t, I still know what the deal was with that Red Hat.

I don’t know why there’s a Red Hat. I do. Was that supposed to be Connie’s? Carol’s? Carol’s? 

Craig: I mean, it was Carol’s. Carol’s, yeah. Carol Carol was the girl. She’s not even a character in the movie. She’s just. This girl who shows up and takes the boyfriend to a party. Oh, she was wearing it and she was wearing it.

Oh. And then soon after this, and I may be jumping ahead a little bit, but it, it connects it. Soon after this, Linda is in her room and she hears a car horn honk. She looks out out of her window and it’s. Carol’s red convertible, and Carol is in it, but somebody else is driving. The camera does not zoom in on it.

We only see it from the same distance that Linda sees it, but I thought it looked like Carol’s head was tilted way back and I was like, is is she dead? Oh, and Linda runs down, but as she runs down the car speeds away and then she goes and talks to Connie and she’s like, 

Clip: did you see who was driving Carol just now?

Was she here? Of course. She was here a be was in the pond this morning. Oh, there was someone in the house last night. Someone turned off the lights and all the taps in my room were left running. Why would she do that? She, you said Carol was here. It’s probably one of the old folk. 

Craig: Carol was dead in that car.

Todd: Oh yeah. 

Craig: I’m almost a hundred percent sure. And then later when she’s running around in the last part of the movie, she stumbles upon Carol’s dead body. In the fountain. 

Todd: Yeah. With 

Craig: its with her 

Todd: throat cut. That was real poetic. I don’t know why the killer decided to bring Carol’s body back here and, uh, throw it in the fountain at that particular moment.

I don’t either. I, I first thought that that was Connie actually cut. By the throat, because that was the only thing that made sense to me at the moment. But yeah, you’re right. It, it’s definitely Carol. Okay, so it’s, there’s a little premonition too. Yeah, it’s a little bit like, don’t look now in that way as well, I guess.

Yeah. Okay. So, but while she’s out there talking with Connie in the laundry, which again. Some very inspired shots here as well. You know, it’s very evocative of trying to work your way through a maze the way that they’re talking to each other. But there are these multiple lines of sheets hung up between them and they’re kind of walking in and amongst them, but never really in this.

Same. Mm-hmm. Line. You’re always separated. There’s this one point where it’s just made perfectly clear that there’s a wall between them, which I alludes to the psychological wall between I, I just thought that was such a great bit and Connie is like shady. Totally shady. Yeah. I mean, you could say maybe she’s not, but she feels really shady here and she asked Connie about Aunt Rita.

She says, why didn’t anyone tell me Aunt Rita was dead? Because she had just come from. Lance’s room, and she asked Lance about Aunt Rita. Do you remember Aunt Rita when she died? And Lance says, not dead. Uhhuh not dead. So now she’s confused. Is Aunt Rita not dead after all? And she asked Connie why did tell when?

And she’s like, well, she isn’t, she. And she is. Okay. So then she goes to visit the doctor about Aunt Rita. And the doctor too is, feels very shady about this. Um, but ultimately his explanation is just like Lance is just an old man and, and he’s confused and he is living in the past sometimes. But no, you know, your mother couldn’t cope because your aunt was a very, very sick woman.

And Aunt Rita had to be sent away to a home, and that’s where she died. She couldn’t handle her illness anymore. 

Craig: Right. 

Todd: And she’s like, but I saw that you, that even up till recently. In the ledger payments have been being made to her in your name, and that’s what you know was in the ledger. That’s where we finally figure out the significance of that, and the doctor’s just like, uh, yeah, I don’t know.

Now it’s starting to coalesce around this mystery of Aunt Rita. Maybe Aunt Rita’s not dead after all. And what does that mean? Is that the figure she thinks she’s seeing and all this stuff and immediately she pulls up to the house a little bit later and through her window blurred by a sprinkler. It’s funny, she stops in the driveway right where a sprinkler is going over her windshield and as it kind of swipes away in between the swipes, she looks and she sees, thinks she sees up in the corner of a window on like the second or third floor, I think in her room, a figure who was wearing a red coat.

Again, so much like. Don’t look now, and she runs up into the house and looks for it. I’m like, okay, we’re an hour in. Finally we’re getting somewhere. She goes in the room, looks inside, can’t find anyone, only Connie is there and she’s like, oh, it’s only, you know us. And Lance, Connie seems super shady. Mm-hmm.

Linda finally finds the red coat sitting there in the room and it’s on top of an open page in the diary. And what a cool transition this is like, she picks up this diary and she’s reading it, and this is referring to the events of. Of like 20 years ago. And there’s this cool bit where she’s reading the diary and the camera pans through the wall to the other room where Connie is standing there kind of pacing and looking out the window as well as she’s reading it.

And this is where the diary is explaining the strange noises in the house, lights going on and off. Doors opening and closing. You know, her mom’s able people dying in the 

Craig: bathroom. 

Todd: Yeah, she’s something is evil. And so then this is where we get that flashback to Linda as a child where we’ve realized that she has in fact discovered a body.

Dead when she was there. Three found dead in the bathroom in the past, I think. And so now Linda’s on a mission, right? She’s gotta figure out, is this happening again? Why? Why is it now happening again? What’s going on? So she runs into what I thought was the doctor’s office. Maybe it was, maybe it’s Connie’s office, I don’t know.

And while the doctor and Connie are occupied. In fact, they, they p she, she grabs like some records off the top. This is so typical, right? Going through old records and, uh, listing the different causes of death. She overhears the doctor telling Connie perhaps she found out I was lying. 

Craig: Yeah. It seems very conspiratorial.

Yeah. Like they’re conspiring against her somehow. Well, 

Todd: it very much 

Craig: is 

Todd: really in a way 

Craig: kind of, but I, I don’t even understand why I, I don’t understand what. Uh, they’re keeping something from her and I don’t understand why. 

Todd: Well, I’ll tell you why. Because the doctors listed these odd reasons for death here.

The doctor’s been covering up, okay? The doctor in the past has been covering up, and so he is still kind of covering up again, you know, to kind of. Save face for the family or to kind of brush things away for the family. 

Craig: Okay. And for the facility, I suppose? Mm-hmm. Okay. So all those people who died in the bathroom, he was making up fake causes of death.

Correct. Like 

Todd: coma. 

Craig: That makes sense. I mean, I guess it kind of, it kind of makes sense. I mean, ultimately. Ugh. Anyway, carry on. We’ll, we’re, we’re, we’re leading right up to it anyway, but go 

Todd: ahead. Well, this is great. This is where Linda freaks out, like she thinks she’s kind of sorted it. And so she runs out.

There’s this great sweeping shot. As she tears off outside of the, out of the house, there’s this great sweeping shot down the hall past the doctor, past Connie, up to Lance, peeking through the door. I mean, I would steal shots from this movie if I were to ever make another movie. I just thought this was so great.

She gets in her car, she runs to Barney, or who’s in this fire brigade meeting. It’s so funny that she can interrupt this meeting and they just kind of like talk over her. Carry on. Yeah. 

Craig: Like maybe that’s she and, and she is a mess. Like she’s filthy. Yeah. Like she, she’s just run through the woods. She’s run and she must have fallen several times because she’s just.

Covered in dirt and like there’s dirt all over her face and her hair is a mess. And she walks in and she’s acting crazy and they all just ignore her. 

Todd: Is this an Australian thing? Is this a cultural thing? We don’t get, you know, maybe the politeness of just like, you know, carry on and let the crazy person be crazy until it affects us.

Craig: I like that part, but doesn’t nothing come of it. Doesn’t he just take her back? That like. Well, this is the beginning of the end really. She’s like, something’s going on. And he’s like, okay, let me take you home. And like they just go back there, right? 

Todd: Yeah, yeah. She sends him in to collect the paper. He’s like, well, you know, we can get the papers.

And she’s like, they’re down there in the thing. And he is like, all right, let’s go. And she’s like, I would rather not go in. Can you just do it? So he goes in, you know, he’s being the calm. Reasonable boyfriend where she’s clearly having this panic attack. And then there’s just this beautiful sequence where she’s just outside and she’s kind of looking around and there’s this fountain there.

There’s this stream of water spraying up outta the fountain, and she’s looking at it, and then suddenly the stream of water turns red. And we look at the fountain and we see the fountain is covered with blood. And I thought she was imagining this. Mm-hmm. But somehow while she was standing there, apparently somebody slipped, slipped Connie’s body into the fountain right there in front of her, Carol.

Carol, sorry Carol. This is the typical, you know, run around and find the bodies at the end kind of deal. 

Craig: Yeah, I, I loved that, that that shot of Carol with her throat cut was beautiful. I mean, it was gruesome obviously, but it was a beautiful shot. But I love, this is an an old school thing too that I love when you see these kinds of practical effects on people, and she’s obviously meant to be dead and her heartbeat was so evident.

Yeah. Throat, well, 

Todd: like her 

Craig: throat 

Todd: was just pulsing. I thought she was just freshly dead. ’cause I saw the pulsing. I thought she was gonna run up and try to help her. And then when she keep, when she runs away, I was like, wait a minute. Wasn’t that woman like dying back there because I saw her, her neck moving.

Craig: No, she was for sure meant to already be dead. She was dead a long time ago when she was in the car. I’m pretty sure. Yeah. 

Todd: Now it makes sense. You had to explain that bit to me. I didn’t quite get all that. 

Craig: The, the next part that I found really surprising is because Barney doesn’t come out. She goes in and she’s like Barney and she’s looking all around and she is standing in one room and she looks across the room and there’s like an open door, but it’s dark in there so she can’t see anything.

But then a wheelchair comes rolling out at her really fast. With dead Barney in it. Yes. Like 

Todd: that was fast. I 

Craig: was 

Todd: shocked. I was too, I was shocked. And it that kind of hits the step or whatever, and flies up and over her. Oh my gosh. How didn’t we just recently see something where a body kind of improbably fell over somebody?

Oh, was the girl? I don’t remember. It was the girl in the basement of, of Dolly Dearest. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, she’s freaking out. See, this, to me, this was where I felt very susperia because the angles, the light, especially the color and everything, it just, it got very, very stylish, really, really fast. Here.

And I liked it. I thought there were a lot of red lights coming in with a little bit of blue and the, and the darkness and the shadows and, oh, I, I, I just love this bit. But yeah, this is the panic bit. And then she runs into Lance’s room and he’s still in there and there is somebody running after her in the hallway.

You, you can just hear the steps for sure. So she quickly barricades the door and somebody’s banging on the door and she ushers lance out the window slash fire escape 

Craig: and he gets away. I thought that was really sweet. Yeah, it was like she makes sure she gets him out of there. Mm-hmm. And he does. He goes down the fire escape.

We never see him again. Presumably he’s fire at this point. She’s running around, she’s getting chased. She runs into another room. This is when you see an old woman silhouetted from behind. 

Todd: Well, first. No, you were right. I think you were about to say she finds the key and locks the door. She does. Okay.

Because there’s still somebody out there pounding on the door and they try it again. And there’s this really, really suspenseful moment where she’s up against the door, she locks it, she’s trying to do it quietly. ’cause it sounds like whoever was chasing her was down the hall. But clearly they can. He they could hear it because there now there are slow steps toward the door and then somebody tries the, the knob.

And I actually, you, you could see the, the key turn a little bit. I thought maybe they were gonna unlock it from the other side. Oh, right. Yeah. But then you’re right. No, once it seems like she’s okay, she turns around and looks into the room and like you say, there is a silhouette of somebody in there. I was shocked by that.

I, that, that scared me a bit. Well, 

Craig: I don’t know. I mean, it was spooky, but I was like, okay. He, this is it. This is where we’re gonna find out what’s going on. And it is, but it was giving me very shoot psycho vibes. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, who is the Norman Bates under this wig? 

Todd: Mm. 

Craig: And I would’ve rathered it been someone else.

You know, like I, I would’ve rather it have been more of a surprise, more of a shock. I would’ve rather it have been the doctor or Connie, or, I don’t know. It just ends up being Aunt Rita who. Was in disguise as that old woman who we saw brought in at the very beginning of the movie and never saw again since then.

Mm-hmm. Now we’ve read all about this history and the doctor said she was crazy and you know, we had to send her away. And if you, as you just did for me a couple minutes ago, if you put all the pieces together. Apparently it was Aunt Rita that was killing everybody and they were covering up for her, but to save face and to eliminate the problem, they sent her away.

But she’s pissed because she feels like this is her place too. And so now she’s come back with her son. Oh yeah. I wasn’t sure who this guy was. Maybe. Maybe. Or was this 

Todd: just some other loon that she like hooked up with at the loony van? That was the most frustrating part about this whole thing is we still don’t know who this freaking guy is.

Was he killing for her? You know, I, I just, 

Craig: I think so. 

Todd: In 

Craig: the past 

Todd: though, 

Craig: or just. No, probably not. I don’t know. Yeah. I’m just making this up in my head now. I like, I just kind of went along with it like, oh, she has a son. I, I, but they, I mean, the son was never mentioned by the doctor or by the diary and like it in the 

Todd: IMDB.

It gives him a name and says it is her son. Uh, okay. 

Craig: Well that’s fine. 

Todd: Kelvin. 

Craig: I would prefer to think that they put her away in a loony bin and she recruited some other loony to break her out and bring her here, but, 

Todd: mm-hmm. 

Craig: Whatever, who cares? They’re there and they’re pissed and they’re trying to kill everybody.

Todd: Well, he’s a loon because, you know, he’s got a hammer and he’s, he ends up getting in the door and he comes in and he’s more tormenting her than anything at first. Like she’s backed up against the foot of the bed and he’s like crouch in front of her, like, 

Craig: yeah. And he’s got like a mallet and he’s kind of like menacing her with it.

Todd: Oh, that’s so dumb. I, 

Craig: but yeah, he’s just crazy. 

Todd: Yeah. She overpowers him, ends up running into the bathroom and comes into the doc. I think both doctor and. Connie at this point are dead in the tub. Right? 

Craig: Oh, I only noticed the doctor, but you’re probably right. Yeah. But it’s very, it’s, it’s gross. It’s like, oh yeah.

A display like it, like a display of bodies. It’s disgusting. It looks fantastic. It does. 

Todd: I could, again, I couldn’t help but think black Christmas, there’s just so many things. Maybe we just see so many movies. Yeah. That there’s hardly anything original anymore. But this woman is looking through, you can see her eye looking through the keyhole.

I 

Craig: actually really liked this part, so Linda is standing. On one side of the door holding it, propping it shut with her body. And there’s that gross display of bodies on the other side of the room, like in the bathtub. And you hear crazy Rita say, I can see you. And Linda looks across the room and sees the bathroom mirror and I think through the bathroom mirror she.

See Rita’s eye in the keyhole. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. So 

Craig: she real quick covers the keyhole with her hand and scoots over to where she can reach a hair pick. 

Todd: Mm-hmm. 

Craig: It’s like a comb with a pick on the other end. 

Todd: So cool. 

Craig: And, and she scoots back over and she just takes it and just stabs it directly into the keyhole. She has great aim, excellent aim.

That’s a real fol move there. Yes, and that was my favorite part. I loved it. And she pulled it out. It was all bloody, and then she opens the door and Rita like falls to the ground and is like clutching her eyes 

Todd: or whatever. At this point, I kind of felt like maybe she’s gonna be fine. The big mistake she made was like, she disabled the guy in the bedroom.

He, she like whacked him on the back of the head with a. Chair or something, which seemed to knock him out, but you don’t really know, man, if she had just finished a job, 

Craig: she barely hit him with like a little footstool. Like that was not a good, 

Todd: it 

Craig: was 

Todd: dumb. 

Craig: That was not good. Yeah. 

Todd: But there is this awesome, again, another awesome shot.

This shot of her running away. It, it, it all gets slowmo again and. There’s the sound of her running away from her and there’s this overhead shot down the hall and she’s running down the hall and almost everything except for the hall of the carpet just seems to fade into black. And her running down it, like she’s just going down this, this tunnel.

She goes down the spiral staircase and she runs out of the house. She gets in her pickup and speeds away, and I’m like, well, she’s fine now. Right? More or less. But she doesn’t think so she comes to that diner that she arrived at, at the very beginning of the movie. Everything Starts that we didn’t talk about at all.

We didn’t do 

Craig: the, the movie. The movie actually starts at the end. You see her all beat up at this cafe and like driving away from a cafe. 

Todd: That’s right. And, 

Craig: and then it flashes back and you see her like going to this cafe and she’s very friendly with everybody there, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, she’s going back there now.

Todd: This little kid, Nico lets her in because the Harry, his dad, who, who owns the, the diner is not there at the moment. She’s locked the door and she goes over to the pinball machine and waxs it open like, like we saw earlier. And then she just sits there and she’s just, she, they’re just waiting for Harry, but she’s like, get his gun.

Harry’s out rabbit hunting, apparently. She’s like, get his gun. And I thought this was so cute. Like she’s sitting at this table just staring off into space. And Nico is there dressed in military gear. He’s got a helmet on. He’s got like an army shirt on and he is got the, the rifle sitting there like he’s ready for it, but she’s just staring off into space.

She’s just. Broken 

Craig: building a giant pyramid of sugar cubes. Now the, the scene was interesting, but it was so weird as far as pacing is concerned because all of this huge fighting and stuff at the house, and then she flees and she gonna get away and she gets away and then she gets to the cafe and they.

Sit there and wait. Yeah. And the, the movie even tells you, like, they don’t make us sit there with them for a half an hour, but they tell us by showing that he has changed his clothes and they’ve barricaded the door and she has built an enormous pyramid of sugar cubes like they have been there. A while.

So the movie tells us that they’ve been there a while and then just out of nowhere, that black rape van bursts through the wall. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Nico tries to shoot the guy, but he’s clearly never shot a gun before because he doesn’t come anywhere close. But he does shoot the gas tank. Yeah, 

Todd: classic with 

Craig: a rifle, but somehow.

It. The gas tank gets hit with buckshot because it starts shooting out in a bunch of different directions. 

Todd: She stands up, grabs the rifle, walks right up to that thing and blows that guy’s head clean out. That’s right. That was cool. I, I don’t understand why she didn’t just keep driving down the road, honestly.

Yeah. I think she could have even gassed up there. Well, 

Craig: it is Australia. 

Todd: Yeah, that’s true. Drive for 

Craig: days. That’s 

Todd: true. You’re probably right. You’re probably right. I mean, there was probably a good reason why she was. Sitting there and waiting, I suppose, but I like that she just stands up and blows that guy’s head off and we are done.

That was a great shot too. It was really fast, but his head just explodes. Yeah, it looks really good. So then like she just kind of stumbles out and even the kids like, we gotta get going. We gotta get going. I mean, she’s still kind of not right in the head, but uh, he ends up pulling her out into the truck and like you said, this is the beginning.

This is what we saw in the beginning of her coming, and that was satisfying. I love a good bookend. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: sure. She gets in the car and drives off. And now apparently this next shot, which blew me away, this next shot was apparently a total accident. This is all one shot. Like she gets in the car, she sits down, she starts it up, the camera’s like in the backseat, basically of the pickup from behind them.

They pull out, they drive down the road, and then she turns around and looks back and you hear an explosion. And I thought, Ugh, this movie couldn’t afford. To show us the explosion because there’s not even a flash of light or anything. But the camera pans sideways in just enough time to catch a flash of light come off of the sign that they pass.

They pass by this white sign and it continues to pan around and you see that it, the building is in the process of exploding. And I was like, oh my God. That was an amazing shot that they caught that light just in that moment. It turns out that was just a happy accident. The camera was supposed to turn around and then we were supposed to see it explode at that moment, but the special effects guy shot it off too early, but it’s way more effective that way.

The tension of just like hearing the explosion, turning around, suddenly seeing the flash, and then continuing around and you see it blowing up behind him. I was so impressed by that. Yeah, it looked good. Yeah. And I love the closing music. It’s, it’s immediate credits, it’s closing music. All the music through this whole thing was done by, um, Klaus Schultz, who is a, a German guy.

He was part of Tangerine Dream, which makes sense. It’s very evocative of that. It’s, it’s a synth score, but it’s a really nice synth score. And, uh, I really liked it. He’s done a couple movies. He did this one, he did, uh, horror movies. I mean, as a solo artist. He scored this, he scored Barracuda, which was kind of a jaw slash piha knockoff in, in the late seventies.

And I, and I, you know, I thought the music in the movie was very judicious. Appropriately judicious. But when it came on in some ways, again, uh, it was so giallo, it, it almost felt like, uh, the kind of thing that Goblin would’ve come up with if they were just a little more hy and sparse, you know, with the, with their arrangements.

But, uh, yeah, man, I don’t know. I, I, I, I really liked it. I don’t know what I was expecting. I don’t think I was expecting a big, uh, action pack slasher. I wasn’t exactly the shining either. As we talked about, but I walked away from there going, wow, like this movie. This is a movie I’m gonna remember. I really enjoyed it and I did wonder if you were gonna like it or not.

So 

Craig: yeah, no. As is often the case with these movies, it was a lot more fun talking about it with you than it was watching it for me. I don’t. Think that I will remember much of it. If anything, maybe that, that cool stabbing the eyeball part. Maybe a again, I, I would never, well, I would rarely intentionally steer people away from a movie.

It’s fine. It’s not bad. We’ve a hundred percent seen worse. It’s, as far as filmmaking is, is concerned. Well beyond competent, it’s, it’s good. In terms of filmmaking, I just didn’t particularly care for the story. I didn’t find it particularly engaging. I didn’t really care what was going on. I didn’t really particularly care about the characters, so it doesn’t get a strong recommend from me.

But if you’re curious. You could waste your time in far worse ways.

Todd: What a lovely way of putting it. I mean, I’m gonna go against you on this one. I highly recommend it, but obviously if you’re the kind of guy who just wants like an 80 slash or some kind of modern, very twisty, very action packed. Thing, it’s probably not gonna float your boat if you like, uh, the old Hammer horror films, if you like a slow burn, if you, uh, like a kind of a Victorian style gothic mystery and, and you know, can kind of sit through that, I think you’re gonna be rewarded with some beautiful imagery.

Haunting feelings. And uh, obviously if you’ve listened through this far, we’ve kind of spoiled the whole thing for you. Right. But, uh, you know, that being said, if you were watching this for the first time, I, you know, if you’re that kind of person, I think you would really dig it like I did. And I think certainly as far as filmmaking goes, man, when you consider this time period and what was going on, you know, in the world of horror around this time with a lot of cash grab movies, in fact, a lot of Australian cinema around this time was quite extreme and ridiculous.

This is a bit of a diamond in the rough. I think for that reason alone, I’m sure, I’m sure is, is a reason why Quentin Tarantino honed in on it so much and maybe gave it a little more prominence than it would’ve had otherwise if it hadn’t had him mentioning it a few times. 

Craig: Yeah. I just feel like if people go in thinking, oh, it’s, you know, Quentin Tarantino loved it, I, I feel like you may be kind of disappointed.

Todd: Oh, your expectations might be. A little different. 

Craig: Yeah, I, I just, I mean, yeah. And maybe that was the problem for me. Maybe I wouldn’t, maybe my expectations were too high. So, temper your expectations. Fair enough. Well, 

Todd: thank you guys so much. We’d love to hear what you think of this movie, if you’ve even seen it.

It’s definitely playing on streaming services now. I think you can watch it on Tubi. So, uh, check it out next of kid and let us know what you thought. Uh, you can leave us a [email protected]. You can find us anywhere. You know, just Google ‘two guys and a chainsaw podcast’. Leave us a message on social media.

You can speak to us directly by clicking Speak to us on our website and just record a quick 92nd clip that we will play on air and respond to if you choose to go that way. You can also get some private audience with us back on the Patreon page, patreon.com/chainsaw. Horror just. Five bucks a month. We have lively conversations going on there.

We have a book club back there where we read horror and horror adjacent books, our minisodes and short reviews, and all kinds of stuff we put back in patreon.com/chainsawpodcast. We love your support. Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we pay tribute to Ed Gale and Mark Snow while diving into the 1991 horror film, Dolly Dearest. We discuss the notable careers of Gale, best known for his portrayal of Chucky in the Child’s Play franchise, and Snow, the composer behind iconic TV themes like The X-Files.

We review the film’s plot, characters, and special effects, while also reflecting on its place in the horror genre. Join us on this strange ride through the eerie world of killer dolls and indigenous devil babies that drink the blood of children. Don’t forget to leave your thoughts and comments; we’d love to hear what you think!

Episode 453, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, why don’t we just keep going with tribute episodes. You know, it’s not like we haven’t done three or four already this time we’re killing two birds with one stone. There are two people, one in the acting world, one in the composing world. Uh, ed Gale, who was probably best known for playing Chucky, you know, when he wasn’t a doll.

Yeah, in the Child’s play franchise and Mark Snow, who is a composer, you know, probably not everybody knows who he is, but you have heard his music all over the place. Starting from the mid seventies. This guy was, uh, composing from TV series like Starsky and Hutch and The Love Boat and Heart to Heart Dynasty Cagney and Lacey PeeWee’s Playhouse.

Eventually, uh, did every episode of Smallville and every episode of the reboot of the Twilight Zone. As well as the X-Files theme song. Oh, cool. That is the one of the most iconic songs. I, you know, I didn’t realize this, just that theme song for the X-Files hit like the billboard charts in several countries.

Like really, really well. I’m not 

Craig: surprised. 

Todd: It’s so iconic. 

Craig: Yeah, it was, uh, I remember it was on my Pure Moods cd. Do you remember Pure Moods? I 

Todd: do. I loved that cd. I listen to it all the time. It’s a genius song, and apparently it didn’t come easy to him. He landed the job because he lived near the show creator, Chris Carter, and they could communicate with each other pretty easily.

So Chris Carter kept rejecting earlier motifs that he had that were more loud and bold, and he accidentally placed his hand on a keyboard. When there was an echo sound effect that was programmed and this ethereal sound that came out was so intriguing that he ended up using it as a model for the rest of the theme.

Yeah, yeah. So it’s so cool. Yeah. But, but yeah, he’s done movies as well, including this one. This was one of just hundreds of movies that he scored. He also was. A roommate of Michael Cayman in college, also very famous, uh, composer who, uh, did diehard Lethal Weapon franchises. I remember him as Robinhood Prince of Thieves.

That was huge when we were kids. He did the music for that. But anyway, Mark Snow Dolly Dearest, one of the horror movies. Uh. Kind of midway through his career that he did, and I thought this would be a good opportunity to hear some of his stuff as well as see some of Ed Gale’s acting as the, once again killer doll in this once again Killer Doll movie that was definitely accused of being a child’s play ripoff, one of many, but this film is a 1991 and it had a very brief release in the Midwest in theaters, but mostly went straight to video.

It was produced by Daniel Katy, who was a longtime producer of exploitation and porn films, and the director and writer of this, this is Maria Lease. She started out her career as an actress in exploitation films. Did a little bit of acting in some porn movies in the late seventies, and then, um, went into directing.

Porn and soft core stuff, and this seems to be one of the first more mainstream ish movies that she’s done, even though, I mean, do you call this mainstream? I mean, it’s, it’s horror in the nineties, so right. Low budget horror in the nineties. Very interesting movie. I had never seen it before, but I think I pass by it on the shelves all the time, so I was anxious to get a chance to see this and see what it was all about and how it held up.

How about you have, had you seen this before? 

Craig: Uh, maybe. I don’t know if so. I didn’t really remember it. I, I do remember the box art and if I’ve seen it, I passed it over many, many times before I saw it, because I thought the box art looks stupid. Oh yeah. It looks, and I’m just recalling this from memory, I didn’t even look back at it, but it, it looks like.

Kind of a person, but with a doll face, like in a kind of slumped doll pose. And like, it’s supposed to be scary, but I just thought it looked dumb. And even looking at the back of the box, I think there was a picture of the doll, like with angry evil face, and I thought it looked cheap. And so I just. Wasn’t really interested.

And you know, now having watched it, having watched it again, if I have seen it before, I’m not really surprised that I don’t really remember much about it. ’cause it’s pretty forgettable. It 

Todd: really is. Although I was surprised to see some of the faces in here. Yeah. What is ripped, torn doing in this movie?

Like 

Craig: right, ripped, torn, sir. He is making big movies at this time and would go on to be in some of the biggest. Movies and, and biggest blockbusters. Ever. I mean, this guy, I, I think of this guy as a reputable actor. Yeah. And I couldn’t believe when I saw his name in the credits. And then he just plays a dumb part.

Like Yeah. And I, I was shocked by it. But again, we’ve. Said it a million times. A check is a check. A job is a job. So you know, more power to him. I was just, I was really shocked. 

Todd: Maybe he needed a new truck. You know, that’s probably, maybe, who knows? Denise Crosby is in this and, uh, she’s been all over.

Actually, most of these actors have a lot of credits and television. Mostly that’s true. 

Craig: Denise Crosby, I, I really only know her as the mom from Pet Cemetery. The, the. Original film adaptation, but I think she was big on like Star Trek or something like that. 

Todd: Yeah. The next Generation She was Tasha Ya, that’s where I remember her from.

I wasn’t a real Star Trek guy growing up, but later in life I, I did get into it a bit and the next generation’s a solid series and she’s all over it. So. 

Craig: And then the guy that, the guy that plays her husband was in something big too. A big war movie, right? Like Apocalypse Now 

Todd: or something 

Craig: like that. 

Todd: Yeah, apocalypse Now.

Sam Bottoms. Oh, he is in Sea Biscuit, the Outlaw. Josie Wales, the last picture show quite a few older movies and then kind of coming into this era, you know, of the nineties, and he’s taking these sorts of roles. I think that tends to be pretty typical of a most actors, right? They kind of have their moment, if they’re lucky enough to have a moment, you know, unless you just hit the gold mine, you know, you find yourself, uh.

Sure. Doing, working. Yeah, just doing, working. Exactly. There’s nothing wrong with it. We talk about this all the time. I, I dunno why people give actors a hard time for this kind of thing. There aren’t enough roles for everyone to be in big budget movies all the time once they’ve made one. You know? I know 

Craig: My favorite, my favorite is when people hit it big and then people, you know, dig back in their filmography and find some bad movie they did before and like.

Bring it out to like embarrass them. That’s so stupid. Like, who cares? Everybody starts somewhere. So few people just, you know, have lightning strike and they’re immediately amazing and doing amazing work all the time. Right? And even, you know, like. Like I said, you know, rip torn at this point has been successful.

He’s, you know, a good actor, big deal. Maybe he was going through a sleepy period. I’m certainly not giving him a hard time. I was just surprised to see him here. 

Todd: Well, and they’re, honestly, they’re all, they’re all fine in this movie. This, they’re fine, to be honest with you. This movie was more solid than I expected it to be.

It was just slow paced and boring. It was boring, especially the first half. Yeah, there just wasn’t enough action with the doll. The script tries really, really hard. To build up this mythology of where the doll came from and how they discover the secret to it all. And there’s this archeological side alongside all this stuff, and it’s like, you know what?

Just like we can establish that and, and get that done with. Yeah. Like I think we all came here to see a killer doll terrorizing a family and it hardly happens. In the second half it does, but in the first half. Yeah. 

Craig: I, yeah, I agree with you. It’s a lot of buildup. I, I feel like they’re doing a lot to try to establish tone.

Like, yeah, this is spooky and creepy. I’m like, okay, I get it. I don’t need an hour of it. Like, let’s, let’s get to it. Yeah. You know, I don’t think this movie was going for the exact same thing, even though it is so much like. The original child’s play. I mean, right. There’s a point late in the movie where the dad makes these dolls, like he has moved his family to Mexico so that he can, I guess, make these dolls on the cheap in a factory that is really just a shed.

Yeah, I don’t even understand what is happening. There, but whatever. There’s a point late in the movie where in the factory you just see the dolls, faces like disassembled from the rest of their bodies, and it’s almost indistinguishable from the Chucky doll. Like 

Todd: it, it kind of is, except as a girl. 

Craig: Yeah, well slap a long-haired wig on it and a dress, and it looks a little bit different, but when it’s just the face, it’s almost indistinguishable.

It’s crazy. I don’t remember what point I was trying to make. 

Todd: Well, the dolls themselves when they’re not moving, actually look pretty good. I could see this being a real doll that, you know, kids would want. You know, I think they did a pretty decent job of designing these dolls. 

Craig: It’s funny that you say that ’cause I think it’s hideous.

Like, I can’t imagine any girl would ever want this doll. Oh. Oh, it’s ugly. Um. 

Todd: It’s like an almost full size, you know, doll? No, I didn’t think so. I thought they were pretty, I think they get ugly when their faces start scrunching up and they start moving around. Obviously, you know, I just couldn’t 

Craig: match and, and, and again, I realize this was a, a slightly different time, but you know, this was when we were, you know, in middle school or whatever.

I don’t recall girls carrying around like old timey dolls me. Oh. Whatever. No, it’s like an American, not just, yeah, like an American doll, but like the size. It’s almost as big as the girl. It’s kinda like Chucky. 

Todd: But that was the whole appeal, right? Like the My buddy doll, which the Chucky one’s based off of, yeah.

Was an almost full-size boy doll. That’s supposed to be your companion. That’s the shtick, that’s the novelty. The American girl dolls kind of the same Well. Maybe they’re not so big, they’re small. But anyway, it’s kind of the same thing. You know, you, you got this doll that’s almost as big as you are, and so it’s kind of like your little friend.

And I thought they did a decent job with it, but I did feel like it became very low rent. Chucky the minute the doll start moving because it was very clear they only had like one model for all these. And it was, uh, you know, not, not the same team, let’s put it that way. That put all the effort into the Chucky special effects probably ’cause they didn’t have the budget for it.

It was reminding me a lot of the, the baby doll from demonic toys. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. It was evident when it was the doll and when it was the actor, because they’re pretty distinctively different sizes. Yeah. But the whole, you know, the doll running around and you just kind of seeing it, you know, in the background or you’re just seeing its feet.

It, it was, and I, I, I’m gonna keep comparing it to child’s play because that’s the one that’s. The most, like with the doll that size and they look so similar, but you know, all these dolls movies, that’s what you see. You just get glimpses of it. Like it’ll kind of run across a doorframe in the back or you’ll just see its little feet moving.

Yeah. Something that child’s play one did well was the mislead where you didn’t know. If the doll was really doing this stuff or if the kid was just crazy for a while. I mean, you find out, you know, halfway through the movie or whatever, but for a while there was that little mister act. This, you know, it’s the doll the whole time.

And you know, it’s possessed by. Okay. Not Satan, but not 

Todd: Satan, but pretty darn close. 

Craig: So it, it, well, so the movie opens up with some old guy excavating some ruins and he like, you know, I don’t know, opens up something and it lets out this evil red light show 

Todd: animation. 

Craig: Yeah. That like. I don’t know. Bolts around into the factory, I think.

Yeah. Into the factory. Mm-hmm. Which is right next door. It’s like red light rays, but it’s also like shrieking and Yeah, giggling and stuff. It’s weird. And then it goes to the title. Okay. So we find out at some point. This family, oh God, I won’t remember their names. Elliot is the dad. Marian is the mom.

Jimmy. That’s easy is the son I recognized, like he was so familiar to me. Yeah. But I, for the life of me, can’t remember what I recognize him from. Like, I, I, I looked at his filmography and I’m like, yeah, I think I’ve seen a couple of those movies, but I just feel like he’s so familiar. I know. 

Todd: I think he just had a similar look to another kid that’s right on the top of my tongue, but I couldn’t tell you who.

Yeah, I would’ve 

Craig: sworn that he was in clown house. I would’ve sworn that he was the middle brother in clown house, but I looked it up and he wasn’t. Anyway, they are moving to Mexico to like start over because it seems like they’ve been in financial trouble or something. And the dad has bought this factory and he’s gonna make these dolls.

And it just so happens that this factory is right next to the, these Mayan ruins that are being excavated and like archeologists are checking them out or whatever. 

Todd: Yeah. It’s like a tunnel. 

Craig: Yeah. And, and so you’ve got this, what we realized very quickly, this doll is possessed by whatever this is that comes from, it’s just such, I don’t wanna say lazy, it’s just so paint by number, like Yeah.

Oh, the house. The house was built on an ancient Indian burial ground. Like Okay. Like, huh? Sort of, yeah. So like the factory’s right next door to a Mayan thing, which ends up not being Mayan. It ends up. It. They call the people are like the Sania people. 

Todd: Sania, Sania, Sania. Yeah, I think that’s right. Sania, which means literally supposedly Satan on Earth.

Great. Which he just casually says. Yeah. It’s weird because like you say, being paint by numbers, we go into this knowing it’s gonna be a killer to all movie. We see the Mayan ruins thing. We see this family move in, the kids go to with their dad to this factory, and we see that it’s a shed, which was very disappointing.

But then the dad is also questioning the guy. Oh, it’s a great pleasure 

Clip: having handled this for you, Mr. Wade. It’s my first sale, Mr. Australia. The appraisal documents indicated the factory had been kept up. After Sonora DeLuca’s death? Yes, sir. We have been very careful to keep everything just as it was when no one ever comes to the factory.

Not for any reason. See, of course, in your, I understand that we need a little cleaning perhaps. The market projections, the inventory analysis, the assessments. Who prepared that material? I did that, Sarah. I copy from American Business Book. Nice work. 

Todd: To which the dad just sort of seems to shrug his shoulders like, okay, it seemed like this was a famous Mexican doll maker who passed away.

And so the dad was coming in and buying up the factory in hopes of starting that off again. And there already these dolls in there. There’s a whole lineup of ’em, and the girl takes one. So I guess a few days ago that ruins had broken open and those dolls had been possessed and they were just sitting up on the counter waiting to be.

Plucked. So she takes one and is like, oh, good night, Dolly. You’re gonna be my new playmate. You’re gonna be my only playmate. And as she’s falling asleep and the dolls on the chair in her room, it turns its head right. So boom, right away, first 10 minutes, it’s that. But then like, I don’t know, like you said, it’s just like they spend a lot of time just building and building and building, and we don’t really see the doll much.

Craig: No. Well, there’s a good 15, 20 minutes at least of the girl just carrying the doll around a lot and talking to it and, and there’s mm-hmm this dollhouse slash playhouse kid size playhouse in the backyard, and the girl just hangs out in there with the doll all the time. She starts getting bratty and talking back, and it’s obviously the influence of the doll, but as is always the case in these movies, the.

Parents, the mother attribute it to the stress of moving or blah, blah, blah, whatever. Yeah. But yes, this goes on for a long time and like we can hear the doll talking and at times it seems like the mom can hear the doll talking and like the girl is locking the mom out. And like I said before, like.

Talking back and being sassy, and it’s building towards something, but it builds so slowly, like we’re introduced to the housekeeper, Camilla. Mm-hmm. Very, very early on. And she’s a, I presume, very famous Latina actress because I. Recognize her from everywhere. She’s been all over the place. I don’t have her name in, I don’t have her name in front of me, but I remember her distinctly, the movie Selena, with Jennifer Lopez.

She played the woman who was her like friend and, and the woman who ended up murdering her salazar or something like that, I think. And she was 

Todd: very good. She’s Lupe, ROS. Remember the housekeeper in Goonies who comes in in the beginning and. They’re messing. Oh my God. That was 

Craig: her 

Todd: Rosata. Yeah, Rosata. Oh my God.

That was her. She has been in everything. Television, movies, you name it. She might be the most decorated actress in this, uh, in this whole show. It’s pretty cool. Oh yeah. 

Craig: Everywhere. And she’s good. Yeah. And I like her. She’s probably my favorite character. I may jump around a little bit in this. Beginning part because nothing really matters.

She thinks there’s something strange going on. The little girl like SAEs her and like, you know, knocks dishes out of her hands and then says something in a foreign language, and she’s like, oh, it’s the language of the sania. And she’s like, I gotta get outta here. But not right away. No, not right away. But she, but because she also, I guess, without the owner’s knowledge, brings a priest in to bless the house, which freaks out the girl.

The girl freaks out, like has a conniption, like screams. And you know, all of this is so obvious and stupid. 

Todd: Well, the problem is there is nothing new here it is checking. All the boxes because this is how these movies often go. There’s like no variation here. 

Craig: This scene is a carbon copy of that scene from the Omen when they’re taking Damien to church and he’s getting closer and closer and they’re doing tight shots on his face, and then they’re showing like the religious iconography and back to his face, and it’s the exact same thing.

It’s the quick 

Todd: cuts back and forth. Yeah. It’s a, it’s a direct call out, but I mean, they do a nice job with it. I’ll have to say. I mean, that’s just the problem. There’s nothing distinctive about it, but it’s nice. It’s fine. I mean, eventually mom get, starts to get a little more freaked out about the girl talking to the doll.

She thinks she sees two shadows moving in the dollhouse. You know, when they’re back there playing, she thinks she hears the doll talking. Of course she’s disturbed by her behavior change. There’s a moment where the lights go out or something and the wind blows the door shut. Camilla goes out to bring the girl back in from the dollhouse, but she can’t get back into the door.

So then, uh, she can’t get in the front either. She goes, ends up going to the cellar. Now we are 30 minutes into the movie and I was like, God, this better be a kill coming up. Something big needs to happen ’cause we’re already a third of the way through this. Yeah, she’s in the cellar. There are lots of doll parts down there and Dolly closes the latch and then we get one of quite a few doll jump scares where the doll just like springs over someone’s shoulder and goes, go

and wide-eyed mouth open just like shaking. And I laughed every time that happened. It’s just like, it is funny

and Knox are down the stairs, stabs are in the shoulder, yada, yada, yada then, and the music here, by the way, is all quite good. ’cause you know, we’re talking about. The composer here. I really liked the motifs that he had. I liked the intro music. I thought the music here was really nice and intense. I know it’s just a guy with a, a room full of equipment.

He didn’t tend to get his music played by, uh, orchestras and things like that, but it doesn’t sound like that at all. This isn’t your typical Cynthia score that you would get with a movie like this at this particular time, with this particular budget, and for that. I thought it was pretty nice. 

Craig: You know, it’s funny you told me to pay attention to the score ’cause we were gonna be talking about this guy and so in the very beginning I was really trying to pay attention to it and I was thinking this is something that I could put on in the background, like when I’m reading a scary book or something.

’cause I do that. But then it completely faded into the background. Like it, nothing really stood out to me. It didn’t stand out to me as being. Bad for any reason, but it just kind of faded into the background. And I suppose that’s, that’s good. 

Todd: I would say so. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, that’s what you’re going for, I guess it.

Right. And in these moments. These spooky moments, these, you know, like Camilla’s death where she eventually gets pushed into some kind of tub in the floor, in the basement, and then the doll throws like an electrical wire in there and it electrocutes her, whatever. What was that? I could not, for the life of me figure it out.

It would be, I would say like. Three by three square in the floor of the cellar that was like full of water and it looked like there was a hose that was like draining into it. Whoa. Do you have any idea what that was? My thought was maybe some kind of sump pump arrangement. That was the only thing that I could think of.

I had no idea, but it was deep. Yeah. ’cause later the, the dad comes home, I get, I don’t know if they’re all at home. I think they come home and the electricity’s out. Yeah. And he goes down to, you know, check the. The fuse box or whatever. Mm-hmm. He eventually, you know, I, I feel like there’s cat scares ’cause there, there’s also a cat in this house and it scares people all the time.

More than one cat scare in this, uh, in this one there are a couple, like right after each other, like somebody gets scared by the cat, then they get scared by the cap again. Like it was really funny. But eventually he like is down on the floor, like, I don’t know if he trips or whatever, but he’s down on the floor by that pool of whatever it is.

Her body shoots out and it’s clearly not her body. It’s some kind of dummy, it doesn’t look anything like her, but it shoots out as though it were, you know, trying to grab him or something. Yeah. And, and, and as though it were standing fully erect. Four feet underwater and shot out. It’s so weird. I have no idea what was going on there.

It was weird, but, but even that, like you said, oh God, please tell me that we’re getting to a kill soon. We skipped a lot. Like to get, to get to her first. That first death takes a and it’s not really the first, the, the archeologist in the beginning died too. 

Todd: That’s true. That’s true. 

Craig: But that took a long time to get there.

There’s also like a side story with Rip Toren, professor Resnick, who, I guess he’s in charge of this excavation, but he’s been like, he’s a professor at a university, so he’s been like supervising it from afar. But now that there’s been this incident, he’s going there himself and he’s been looking at pictures from the excavation and he sees that though.

They thought it was Mayan, it’s not. It’s the Sania. Tribe or whatever, and they keep cutting back and forth to that. And they also try at some point to make a cute little buddy movie between him, Resnick and Jimmy, like, oh God, Jimmy’s very curious. He’s very curious and very smart and inquisitive, and he, you know, when he finds out that they’re right next to like a, a Mayan temple excavation, like he reads a huge book on the Mayan people, and he’s very interested and he’s like exploring the excavation.

And then so when Resnick shows up, he’s there and he’s very, he’s annoying. He’s annoying, but he’s like. He like, they’re going for short round is what they’re Yeah. You know, like he’s gonna be the funny young sidekick. I feel like he even makes a joke about that. 

Clip: How far back have you 

Craig: been in there? 

Clip: Uh, only by halfway, but I think Introduce you to the end.

Let me show you. I can do it. I can be like, your eyes and Airstream. What you think. Does your father know you’re down here? Sure he does. Uh, my father’s always looking ways to further my education, so, um, lemme crawl on top and take a look for you. I’ve done it before, but it’s 

Craig: kind of dark in there, if you know what I mean.

But that, that’s what he wants. He wants to help this guy. And of course, rip torn is. Crotchety older guy who doesn’t want anything to do with the younger kid, but they, they still kinda, yeah. They, they have this kind of relationship and they help each other out. And when that started, I was like, we were probably, I don’t know, at least 20, 25 minutes into this movie when they started to try to establish this relationship.

And I was like, no, I don’t have time for this. This is a different movie. Right, 

Todd: exactly. No, you’re right. It’s maddening because honestly, like we just need to get to the point of this excavation thing faster. It’s not interesting enough to keep us going back there and slowly drip feeding us little tidbits of information about this.

So we go back to him and Jimmy. And Jimmy helps him crawl in, and then they have some Byplay tells him not to help him crawl in, and then he goes in and then it gets. Scared out. And then he goes back in at night and goes in himself and he sees inside the crypt and is reading along the walls about it being a, it is a crypt.

Uh, and there’s skulls in bed in the walls and it’s inscriptions about the coming of evil on earth. And he looks down and says, ah, this must be the coffin that held the demon child. And. You’re not supposed to cross the threshold and oh, all this stuff, but I mean, it’s, it’s like bits and bits and bits and pieces coming.

I just wanted ’em to get in the fricking place, open up that stupid thing and be done with whatever they needed to do in there. 

Craig: From this point forward, there are two or three times where we get. Some pretty long exposition about these people and how they made a demon child and like, yeah, okay, we get it.

They fed it. The blood of children. It’s like so weird. Jimmy explains it at some point and then Resnick explains it to somebody else at some point, and I guess each time there’s maybe a little bit of extra information, but it’s totally unnecessary. We get it. They were evil. They worshiped Satan. They made a demon child.

It’s in the. Tomb. We get it. We know. 

Todd: Well, I was hoping that all of this would be building to something like The Dolls have a purpose, right? Instead of just running around killing people, the dolls are trying to like reestablish their rituals or whatever. Like maybe they’re drinking the blood of these things or they’re going after kids or, so, you know, something.

But no, it, it is just a, this is a big, bad, evil thing. And now somehow it’s in a bunch of the dolls and it wants the children. 

Craig: For what? I don’t know, but Right. We find out that that’s like, it wants the children and it will get to them anyway that it can. And so that’s why it’s getting to this girl. Well, it’s got the 

Todd: girl, I mean, it could do whatever it needs to do with the girl.

I mean, why is it killing the adults when it’s got the girl? Do your thing with the girl, do your thing with the boy. It, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. No, 

Craig: it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Now the girl is continuing to be like, seemingly kind of possessed. Like at some point they say she cut her own hair, but she didn’t, they just curled it so it looks shorter curled it and more like more doll like.

And it does look more doll like at some point. You know, I think before Camilla died, she said something to the mom, or maybe it was immediately after Camilla died and the mom is getting scared or whatever. ’cause so she tries to take the doll away from the girl and the girl’s like, no, she’s mine in a devil voice.

And so like, which Jimmy comments on. Yeah. Like, yes, he totally notices. He’s like, whoa, what’s going on with your voice? Then the dad and the mom go out in the hall and the mom’s like, I’m really concerned, and the dad’s like, you’re crazy. And like, I didn’t think the mom was. Upset enough, right? This is not an appropriate reaction.

You just heard Satan speak through your child and she’s like, I’m a little worried. The dad’s like, you’re crazy. Uhhuh. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: it’s nuts. God, it was stupid. So that’s happening. She’s, she’s getting more possessed, 

Todd: but she’s just becoming mean. That’s all you know, just mean like she’s not sabotaging the family.

Louis. Is this guy, I guess he’s a late night worker at his factory. Yeah, that’s what I was getting at. I could tell that they were 

Craig: setting up a death scene for him, but this is also movie because this is a new guy we’ve never seen before. Yeah, and and I, I was asking myself, I think the exact same thing that you were about to say, like.

Why, why him? What did he do? Right? He just seems like a nice guy. He’s not bothering anybody like I was. I wasn’t mad ’cause I didn’t care, but I was like, this is dumb. Why are you killing off Luis? 

Todd: He seems like a good dude. And I was kind of thinking the girl would be getting involved. Like, why is this doll okay?

I know, I get it. The doll wants the child. I don’t know what the doll, the doll wants. Uh, does the doll wanna kill the child? If the doll wants to kill the child, let’s just kill the child and let’s move on and kill the other child and do whatever it needs to do. No, the doll, the doll is grooming the child.

But to what end? I don’t know. Like the child isn’t helping the doll in any way. I thought this scene that. We would see the child like, I don’t know, unlocking the door of the factory for the doll or coming in afterwards. Sure. Or like helping the dolls with the, with this murder of Luis or whatever. But no, it just, it’s just the other dolls inside the factory are also possessed.

And there’s a bit of a scene in there where he’s cooking his meal and. Hears the noise and he goes outside and then comes back in, and then he gets tripped up by a doll and then he starts getting attacked by dolls and a cat scares him and then he runs away, but then he runs into a doll. Then we get another one of those dolls jumping out, 

Craig: which is, that’s so funny.

Jumping out, like he’s, he’s standing in front of some shelving and like there are boxes on the shelves and like the doll just pops out from behind the bus and like, it’s so funny. Like, it seems like a prank. Like it, yeah, it looks like something that you would see like on a prank show. Like, because it’s a, it’s not like it jumps out to attack him.

It’s like it jumps out to scare him. Oh my God. It is so funny. I laughed out loud. But this is the part where the movie started getting interesting to me because I still really have no idea ultimately what was going on. But this is the part where you realize that it’s not just that one doll that the girl has been packing around the whole time.

Right. She could have picked any doll off of that shelf. You know, they kind of make it seem like she picked a particular one. No, it doesn’t matter because apparently they are all haunted. They’re all 

Todd: possessed. Yes. 

Craig: By, by this thing. And. I enjoyed it. Then when there were a bunch of them and they were like talking to each other and like, let’s have some fun, but I am also thinking, what are you, because now they basically become like gremlins or something like mm-hmm.

They’re, they’re, they’re just having a good time. Terrorizing people. What are you and what is the point? Like what are you doing? 

Todd: Yeah, I don’t think the movie has answers for that. 

Craig: I’m having a good time watching it. It’s funny to watch these dolls, you know, several of them, you know, one will run across the screen in the foreground and then you’ll see one run across the screen way up in the background and, and I don’t even have any idea how many of them there are.

Probably not more than four or five, I don’t know. But like even the doll parts, like I said, and I feel like this happens later, I don’t remember exactly what it happens. Mm-hmm. But at some point Jimmy is in the factory. They’re like menacing Jimmy for a long time while he doesn’t know it. But Jimmy is in the factory with the dolls and there’s another cat scare.

The cat scares him, and then he walks up next to this rack of just the faces. Now mind you, this is supposed to be, this is supposed to be a factory, but as I’ve said before. It, it is not a factory like, and they do not make really any effort to make it look like a factory. Right? When the nice factory worker got killed, there was a great effect where his hand got put in a, uh, sewing machine, one sewing machine in this factory that is supposedly mass producing these dolls, like there’s no machinery in there.

It looks like a dirty. Abandoned warehouse. I have no idea what’s going on in this factory. It 

Todd: looks more like where you would be storing the dolls and, and not a very good place for it maybe. 

Craig: No, it’s, it looks horrible. But anyway, Jimmy walks up and he’s standing right next to this rack and just the faces is hanging on it and, and the faces are just.

You know, motionless for a second. Then all of a sudden one of them sticks out like a foot long tongue and goes like,

and his eyes kinda go crazy. Oh. And Jimmy sees that and then he’s scared. Oh my God. Did he see it or did he 

Todd: turn around and 

Craig: not quite catch it? I don’t, I don’t remember. I don’t remember. Oh, I 

Todd: laughed so hard at that, uh, that bit. 

Craig: But the dolls, they’re also talking like when they’re, I think it’s, I don’t know.

I think it’s. I don’t remember who they’re going after, but they’ll be like, surprise, we got you.

And like, now we’ll have some fun. Oh my God. It, it sounds funnier than it is, but Yeah, it really does. It is funny. It is funny, but it’s kind like funny because it’s so stupid 

Todd: and funny, but, and thank God there are these moments in there, because otherwise it would just be so tedious, you know? I mean, it still is tedious, but at least there, there are moments, you know, there are moments in here that I think are inspired and kind of nice like that bit.

It’s silly, but it’s cute. And I thought that, like you said, that whole effect, the whole, how he was taken down was pretty good and it was well filmed and everything. By the way, he tore open his shirt for some reason. Oh my God. Todd, what was that? Something was bubbling up in his chest right 

Craig: as he was falling down.

He very clearly intentionally opened his shirt. Now, when I say intentionally, I mean like he was directed. Yeah. As, as you’re falling down, make sure you accidentally rip open your shirt. And I’m like, yeah, why? Like, I, I thought that the dolls then would, you know, come stab him or something. But no, he just falls down on the ground.

And his chest starts bubbling and blood comes out of his mouth and he dies. I have 

Todd: no idea what that was supposed to be. I thought I was seeing things I had no, I, yeah, because later they just come and they, their conclusion is that he had an accident. I, I don’t even know what their conclusion is. They just know he’s dead 

Craig: and people are dropping dead all over the place and they just act like nothing happened.

Like, yes, they, they, they, they find, they find the maid in the basement dead. Unexplainably. You know, and now it’s time for new maid. Yeah. Her, yeah, her, her, the dad comes upstairs, like her family’s gonna take care of it. That’s it. Like they never, that’s it. Say anything about it again. Then this guy dies and they’re like, oh, an accent.

That’s terrible. Right? The kids go about their business, everybody goes about their business. It’s 

Todd: kind of funny. 

Craig: At, at, at some point, Resnick. Is, you know, excavating at night or something and he comes outside and somebody’s trying to set the site on fire and it’s a woman and she’s like, 

Clip: you must stop this.

Everybody will be killed if you do not stop this. What are you talking about? Who are you? You’ve brought their evil back with your peaks and your shovels. Close the tomb now and leave the are dead. He opened up the gate to hell and the killings began. There will be others. 

Craig: And he’s like, what? And then she just runs away and we never see her again.

Just these crazy, weird exposition things. My favorite exposition thing is when, earlier on Camilla or whatever the name’s the, the sisters, oh my god. The maid, whatever the maid’s name was. Oh yeah. She said that she had a sister who was a nun. And so after she’s dead and weird things are happening and the mom’s getting nervous, finally she’s like, I have to go see the sister.

Maybe she’ll be able to tell me something. And she goes there, and it’s a dumb scene. And it’s a like visiting the nun. Like, yeah. It, it’s, it’s either visiting a nun in a convent or visiting somebody who hasn’t spoken for years in the mental institution or, or whatever. Yeah. Just so. It can give some exposition and in this case, like it’s set up and it’s filmed exactly like you see these scenes every time.

Like she goes and she’s like, I need to see this nun. And they’re like, you can’t see her. She’s in seclusion. She’s like, it’s an emergency. I have to see her and they’re fine. Um, so they let her and, and she goes and she talks to the nun, and the nun doesn’t give, really give her any news that we don’t already know.

No, that there was no need for this. No, we already know. Now, maybe to, to be fair, maybe the mom hasn’t heard all of this yet, but we have, so it’s no new information for us. Evil, you know, evil child wants the kids, we’ll get to the kids, however, whatever. So then the mom comes out and, I don’t know, I was trying to set up, there’s some line where.

Somebody, I, I, I, I think it’s her husband maybe, is like, you’re gonna believe that crazy nun. And she’s like, I don’t know, like a bunch of people are dead and our daughter is acting like a crazy person and blah, blah, blah. How do you explain that? Fair enough.

Like the mom actually. For a moment towards the end becomes the voice of reason. Yeah. When her husband is like, ah, you’re crazy. She’s like, okay, well everybody’s 

Todd: dead so well, I mean, a husband is so useless in this. He really has no role. No, he has no purpose at all. Yeah. All he is is to just, uh, keep, keep, keep her from panicking when she should be panicking.

Otherwise, he, well, he’s also s when you think about it, he’s also barely in it compared to everybody else. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: But yeah, you would think that when he finds one of his workers dead in his factory, that he would’ve taken a bit more of a, of a role in all this. 

Craig: Is that the, is that also the part I feel, so I’ve got, the mom goes to visit Camilla’s sister in the convent.

Jess, the girl is now dressed. Like a Victorian doll, but they Right. It bothered me that they couldn’t be bothered to dress her just like the doll, I guess. Yeah, I guess that would be even sillier, like why would she have the exact same outfit as the doll? But she’s now in, you know, kind of a frilly dress and looks much like a doll and she’s acting super weird.

And then there’s that dumb nun scene, and I think at the end of it. The mom says, listen to me. I am not losing my daughter to a 900 year old goat head. I don’t even know where that came from. Like did they say that they made it with a goat head? I don’t even remember. 

Todd: No, God. Yeah. But 

Craig: she’s on a mission now, and she comes home and the house is seemingly empty and she’s looking around and she finds Jimmy hiding in the closet.

Yeah. And he’s like, I guess. Has he, I, I guess he’s been attacked by the doll. I don’t remember. She says, where’s your sister? And he’s like, they’re in their room. I, I, I heard them talking. The doll talks. Okay. So the mom walks in the room and the doll is just sitting in a chair and it is just straight evil looking.

It is like it’s gnarling at her. Oh yeah. 

Todd: It’s got this evil face. Uh huh. It, well, it’s just hilarious ’cause she comes in and it is just snarling at her and she just continues to stare at the doll. And finally she’s like, what have you done with her? And she’s like, uh, I have her now. You’ll never get her back.

And she belongs to me now. She’s like, no, that’s not true. And meanwhile, we see actually she’s just around the corner, hiding behind the curtains. She’s behind the curtain, hide the 

Craig: curtain 

Todd: listening, mom runs out, grabs a gun. And then. What they like run out of the house or something. Right. I like, why don’t you go back in after the, the doll?

They, they, oh, she does go back in after the doll, but the doll’s gone. 

Craig: No, they, they, they try to leave. The mom grabs the daughter. Right. And they try to leave, but Dolly blocks the door and then Dolly starts saying like, we’ll have some fun now, or something like that. And she tells the daughter. To attack the mom, and she does.

So like right the, the daughter’s attacking the mom and Jimmy grabs the gun that the mom had grabbed at some point and points it at Dolly and says, play with this bitch.

Todd: They’re going for a catchphrase here 

Craig: and shoots her. And, and the doll like, you know, blows back through the door 

Todd: outside. This is where it’s all coming to head. Because, yeah. At the same time, two other things are going on. 

Craig: Well, it just is back to normal. And then the only thing that I have next is terrible.

A DRI don’t, I don’t know why that was. I don’t know if they had to do, I don’t know what it was. Anyway. Yeah, go ahead. There’s several. Yes, it’s coming to a head. 

Todd: Yeah. One thing is that the professor is. Back excavating in the tomb. He’s been trying to open the coffin. ’cause he’s not a superstitious guy, so he’s at night.

’cause he for some reason is always trying to do his things at night, decides he’s gonna go back and open the coffin. It’s so interesting this excavation because you see him there during the day and it looks like a busy site with like multiple workers and things. I don’t know what the hell they’re doing.

But then whenever it’s nighttime, it’s just him alone in there doing like the most important stuff. Like in this case, cutting open the top of the tomb. He opens up the lid of the sarcophagus, sees that indeed there’s this, uh, mummified body of a little child with literal devil horns on. It freaks him out so much that he trips all over himself, running out of it, 

Craig: and he says, oh my God, it’s true.

What have I done? What I 

Todd: thought you weren’t superstitious anyway. So funny. And then the dad is for some reason just prowling around. Did he hear a noise or something? I dunno. He’s prowling around his factory. 

Craig: They’re looking for Jimmy because they can’t find him and they think that he’s probably there because he’s been showing up there to help out Resnick all the time.

Ah, so he’s, he’s looking for Jimmy. They couldn’t find him on the site, so he’s looking for him in the factory and all the dolls are there. 

Todd: Yep. And then this is the whole big, this is the big climactic scene where multiple dolls, they’ve, they’ve set up traps. They’ve got dad up at a by his legs at one point.

And I don’t know, there’s just some weird contraption thing that isn’t really explained. And this irritated me as well. It’s like the dad’s steps into a loop of string, like some Bugs Bunny cartoon and gets. His leg pulled tight and the doll start is dragging him across the floor, but then it lifts him up in the air when ano, when another doll is by the wall pulling on some pipe that doesn’t really look like it’s connected to anything and he’s getting lifted into the air at the same time, the professor comes running in and then he runs to a another pipe in another corner and tries to like.

Turn a valve, but it sparks, I mean, I was like, what is this weird thing happening? And then the dude’s getting lifted in the air and it almost looks like he’s getting dangled over a big vat of something. But we never really see what that is because he just kinda reaches up and unties himself. Oh, it’s, it’s just kind of clunky.

But the idea is that he narrowly misses getting dropped from a height or something, and the dolls are everywhere. Poking around from corners, popping their heads outta barrels, taunting them. The professor saves the day, grabs him and they leave. Well, they don’t leave somehow 

Craig: for, they’re outside, but they’re, yeah, they’re some, everybody somehow reunites right outside the site.

Like the whole family in Resnick are together. Right. 

Todd: Outside the door where they just left all these dolls inside who were all up in their faces. I, I just, I just don’t get these things like, come on, put the, keep the pressure on. Why aren’t those dolls running out after them? You know? Why are they, 

Craig: yeah.

Not confined in there. Like, no, I don’t know. But the, it, the, I thought it was kind of a funny scene when the two adult men. Are gonna go into the factory, or, I don’t remember if it was the factory or the site or both, I don’t remember. But they were gonna blow it up and they are conveniently have multiple bundles of stick.

Dynamite. Yeah. And, and they’re running around and they’re lighting the dynamite and they’re throwing it and the dolls are just running around behind them, putting it out. And I thought that was hilarious. 

Todd: That was really funny. They’re pulling it out. They’re like pulling the wicks out. They’re like pouring water over.

One. One of them grabs it, just tosses it after the kid. As he’s running out, it doesn’t look like this is gonna work 

Craig: well, and, and somehow Jimmy. Sneaks off and blows the shaft. I don’t know what the shaft is. I don’t know what that means, but he blows up the shaft and then a doll stabs the dad in the leg.

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: It’s early 

Todd: on, you know? Yeah, 

Craig: yeah. And this whole thing, and then they’re thrown around the dynamite, all that blah, blah, blah. And so then I guess everybody gets out and the factory explodes and the two men like jump over an embankment and like this big action shot. It’s kind of funny. I 

Todd: guess it’s just like.

Some of the dynamite ended up. Working. You know, I, I guess there’s just not, there’s not like a twist or a big moment. There’s just a, they’ve been tossing this dynamite around, by the way, no dolls are attacking them while they’re doing this. No, they’re just running around putting the wicks out. It almost seems completely empty on the shots, but, and these guys also don’t seem to care and about, you know, they’re just running around like they’re doing business, not really looking left and right sneaking.

It’s just, uh, like the dynamite throw it, like the dynamite throw it. Dolls are putting out, dolls are putting out, dolls are putting it out. It just, it, it’s leading you to believe that the dolls are successfully thwarting them at every turn until they run out of there and it explodes anyway. Yeah, so 

Craig: I don’t know.

I guess maybe one or two of the dynamite bundles worked and that triggered the others. I don’t know. It also doesn’t make any sense, like you said before, why wouldn’t the dolls just run out? Like Yeah, leave. As far as we know, they’re not bound there. But anyway, the whole factory blows up and the doll spirits scream.

Now, I guess that’s how you kill evil. Dolls, like blow them up. 

Todd: Like, 

Craig: like 

Todd: I, it, it, it, where do the spirits go now? Exactly. And I mean, if they could possess dolls, they could possess anything. Right. Anything. 

Craig: Right. It it, what are the rules? Like how do you kill an evil spirit with dynamite? Like, uh, like it had to be bound, like it had to be bound in like this special tomb before and it lived there for thousands of years, but now you just blow up the factory and then the mom.

Looks at the daughter and says, honey, it’s over. And it is. That’s the end. Like that’s just the end of the movie. Yeah. Like, well, okay. I guess you win. 

Todd: I mean, thank God it is. I mean really. I don’t know if I could have seen much more of it, but it’s very anti climactic. Yeah. It was going for a big climactic action scene.

There is a giant explosion. It just emotionally it, I felt like it stumbled instead of landed, so yeah. It was, uh, it was interesting. I think it’s a movie you could enjoy with friends. It’s definitely something you could laugh at. It’s better, I think, than a lot of, I mean, there’s some truly unwatchable stuff that we’ve seen Oh, yeah.

In this era. Along the same lines that for one reason or another. 

Craig: Yeah. Some of the newer, is it Full Moon? Is that the company that does like all the demonic toys and stuff? Yeah, some of those newer ones, like there’s these newer like baby Oopsie movies that are super low budget and I think intentionally bad and there are people that are into that kind of thing.

I am not really one of those people. This isn’t intentionally bad. They’re, you know, they’re going for it. I just, you know, like especially the mom, whatever you said her name was, the actress, Denise Crosby, like mm-hmm. She is playing it a hundred percent sincere. She seems exactly the same as her character in Pet Cemetery.

Maybe slightly less bitchy, but other than that, almost exactly the same. True just the mom or whatever. But she is playing it with. Full sincerity and, and I think everybody is, which is a little odd because it feels like it should be campy. Yeah. And it’s really not as campy as you would expect. It plays it pretty straight.

I think I might have, I don’t know. I, you know, I, maybe I’m contradicting myself ’cause I just said, you know, there’s those, you know, goofy full moon movies and they are intentionally campy, but I, I, I could’ve. Done with a little more camp in this movie. Yeah. For me, it just fell a little flat. Like child’s play is better.

I, I’ve seen other doll movies. I like dolls better. You know, I’ve seen a lot of other doll movies that I like better. It’s okay. It’s not terrible. Like you said, I think that you could enjoy it with friends in the right context. I would also say you could skip it. And you’d be fine. 

Todd: Dolls has sort of that fairy tale ish type atmosphere and child’s play has the character of Chucky.

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: And those are the things that hold up those movies and make them interesting. This movie has nothing to really make it interesting. It’s checking all the boxes. Like we said, it’s so typical of these movies. It is a. A hundred percent paint by numbers script. They’re trying to have these goofy moments where the dolls are, he like, like, now we’re gonna have some fun, but they don’t really, it’s just a, a little flash.

Otherwise, it seems like they’re trying to be very, very sinister and the dolls are coming across as very, very sinister, but without really knowing what the potential end game is gonna be, besides just. Kill everybody. You come across, I guess, mischief and what their weakness is. None of that is really, is ever hinted at the movie.

Doesn’t have answers for those things. So there’s nothing to anticipate and look forward to. I don’t know. I just can’t, I can don’t know how else to explain it. It’s just, it’s not horrible. It’s just. It’s kind of basic. Yeah, yeah. That’s 

Craig: a good word for it. Yeah, it’s very basic. 

Todd: And I mean, what can you say about Ed Gale?

I mean, you don’t, you just see flashes of a, of the dolls and it’s clear in those moments that Yeah. Of him running around. 

Craig: But you know, when, when he passed, you know, it was news in the horror world because he’s been around for a long time and he’s done a lot of stuff. It, it was just kind of a coincidence that we were able to talk about him and what was the name of the composer?

Uh, Mark Snow. I thought it was kind of a nice coincidence that we could kind of talk about both of them at the same time because they are the kind of people who work all the time and are so integral to a lot of the films that we have enjoyed over the years, but they don’t get. A lot of acclaim. 

Todd: Right.

Craig: They’re, they’re, they’re not the, because they disappear, they’re in the background. Yeah. They’re not the face of the movie. Right. You know? Mm-hmm. They, you know, they, hidden figures is totally the wrong word, but, but they’re, they’re more behind the scenes. Now, of course, you know, ed Gale’s in front of the camera, but he’s always in prosthetics or a mask or something.

You. Next to never see his face. So it’s not like he’d be somebody that you would necessarily recognize except for his stature and with a composer. Music is such an essential element to film and television and, and art in general. And it can really. And you know, I don’t wanna say make or break, but it can really enhance a film.

Now, I don’t know. Like I said to you, this score kind of faded into the background to me, which I don’t think is a bad thing. It wasn’t anything that I would necessarily say was remarkable, but I appreciate that we can also give some flowers to those people who maybe don’t get them as often as some of the other people that we talk about.

Todd: Yeah, exactly. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode, and if you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can find us online, chainsaw horror.com, direct people there for all of our back episodes. We’re also on all the podcast streaming services. You can, uh, leave us a message, a voice message on our site when you click Speak to us and uh, record a quick file to get sent to us.

And if. And if we, if you do that, we’ll definitely play it on air and respond. We also have a newsletter, a weekly newsletter that you can sign up for that’ll let you know what’s coming up. And also a little bit of horror news and what’s happening with our patrons in the back. We love our patrons and we love doing special things for them.

We have a book club going on right now. We have mini SOS that are exclusive just for them, and of course, they also get our complete unedited phone calls that lead to these podcasts. That sounds like something you’d be interested in. Go over to patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Sign up for just five bucks a month.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

For this week’s tribute to Michael Madsen, we discuss one of his more famous movies, and among the roles he was most proud of. He finally got to play a good guy! We discuss Natasha Henstridge’s breakout role, H.R. Giger’s designs, silly 90’s thriller plots, a unique concept, and copious amounts of female nudity.

Episode 453, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Craig, it feels like for the last month or two, all we’ve done is tribute episodes. 

Craig: Well, and my goodness, we could do more. I mean, so many people have passed away in the last month or two. It’s insane. The last four 

Todd: or five days, 

Craig: I know just the other day I was in the.

Dentist chair, and Alan texted me that Hulk Hogan died. And I cried in the dentist chair that Hulk Hogan died. What? Why am I 

Todd: crying? You cried about Hulk Hogan. That’s hilarious. 

Craig: Well, I think I’m just a little emotionally raw. You know, I recently lost my dog. I’m serious. I recently lost my dog. And then I know you and I recently lost a mutual personal friend, you know, just this week.

And yes, Ozzy, uh, Theo, I mean, oh God. 

Todd: Gosh, it’s been a rough month. It has been insane. Yeah. At the time that we’re recording this, this has all just happened within the last few days. Michael Madson, who, uh, we are attributing in this episode, he passed away, uh, last month in July, just a day before July 4th, and just a few days before the 30th anniversary of this movie that we’re doing now called Species.

Craig: Isn’t that a wild coincidence? I read that too. 

Todd: It is a weird coincidence in this case because species seems to be one of his. Michael Madsen, by the way, has over 300 credits on IMDB. A lot of them are in movies that he says, literally, he says, look, a lot of people say are critical of the movies that I’ve been doing later in my career, but he is like, I got mouths to feed.

Yep. And my family of six kids expected a certain lifestyle around the time of species and Mulholland Drive and a couple of these other big movies that he was in. He said, there’s a lot of DVDs on the shelf that I’m in. 10 minutes of. But they bought my name to put on the DVD packaging for, and it feeds my family, and that’s what we do.

Right. I would do the same if I were him. Of course. Absolutely. Smart man. It doesn’t change the fact that this guy has had a really nice career. He has been in some big films. He was a favorite of Quentin Tarantino’s. He was in Quentin Tarantino’s debut. Debut movie. Mm-hmm. Reservoir Dog and, and he was an evil.

Evil guy in that one. 

Craig: Yeah. It’s one of his most iconic roles. I’ve shockingly, I’ve never 

Todd: seen that movie. You haven’t? Mm-hmm. It’s good. It’s a really good movie. It’s classic Tarantino. I mean, of course it’s his first one, but like he is a brutal, brutal guy who just gets off on torturing and killing people.

Right. That movie kind of was one of the earlier ones that really put Michael Madson on the map, I would say. And Species is another one that I think brought him right in front of our faces as well. These were highlights in his career for sure. He’s from Chicago. Did you know that? 

Clip: No. 

Todd: His mom was a filmmaker and author and at the urging of Roger Ebert, one of my favorite guys, he said, you know, you should, you should pursue your, your art.

She did. I think that was an inspiration to her son, Michael, who after he graduated from school in Chicago, started working at the Steppenwolf Theater Company there, and he was even an apprentice under John Malkovich. Hmm. And his first. Role in, in movies was a very small role in war games with, uh, was Matthew Broderick was in that right?

Craig: I think so, yeah. Uhhuh. So yeah, 

Todd: he kind of k kicked things off pretty strong, I would say. What, what? He was in Donny Brasco, he turned down the role of Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction. That’s the one that Tom John Travolta eventually got. Right. But you could totally see him in that role too. 

Craig: I 

Todd: totally could.

Craig: He said that was the biggest mistake of his career. Like he actually, uh, he turned down for various reasons, availability, whatever, several pretty iconic roles, and, and that was the biggest one. But everyone that he turned down, I was like, yeah, I could see him in that. Right. Yeah. He was a, a really cool actor, you know, tall, dark, handsome, brooding.

He played a type most of the time. He, well, he said. I, I was looking at quotes from him and he said some, something along the lines of, I’m a leading man trapped in a bad guy’s body, and I get it. He does kind of, and it’s interesting that you say that he’s from Chicago, because now that I know that, I’m like, that tracks like right.

He’s got kind of that Chicago tough guy. Air about him, and he is kind of a tough guy, you know? He mm-hmm. He was, I was really surprised. I just learned today that acting wasn’t his only art. He was also a, uh, a published and award-winning poet. I had no idea. So he had a softer side too, and he talks about how, you know, he encouraged.

In his sons to, he encouraged them to try to connect to their softer sides and their artistic sides. But he also said that he wanted them to grow up to be people who didn’t take shit from anybody. So he also taught them. Boxing and stuff like that, which it, it, it, it just, it makes so much sense. It just sounds so much like exactly the guy that I see on the screen.

It does, but it, it also, I mean, I just said I was surprised and I was surprised, but in considering it, I’m really not surprised to see. That he had that softer side, the poet side, because he does also have kind of a quiet elegance to him. Hmm. I remember him from a million things. I’m sure you know who we’re talking about if you’re listening to this, but if you don’t Google him and you’ll recognize him immediately.

He’s been in a million things. He was in free Willie. He was in Belman Louise. 

Todd: Yeah, he was the dad. That’s the 

Craig: one. 

Todd: He was the dad in. Free Willy, wasn’t he? I forgot that. 

Craig: And I liked that movie when I was a kid. I was a cute, but you, you mentioned Thelman Louise. I remember him from that. My sister and I watched that movie a lot when we were far too young to be watching that movie.

He got offered the role of the horrible rapist and didn’t take it, I guess, you know, as tough of a guy as he was. He was really kind of averse to violence. Mm. He wanted the role of. Susan Sarandon’s boyfriend, which was a small role, but I remember him from that. He was a tough guy, but there were so many bad men in that movie.

Right? And, and he was a good guy and he really stood out to me in that it just seemed to be a very well-rounded. Well respected guy. Remained friends with the people he worked with. He was a pallbearer at Chris Penn’s funeral. Just seemed like an all around cool guy. And the reason that I, I suggested we do this was because it’s probably, you know, one of his biggest horror things, but also because, you know, at some point in his career he said that this was one of his favorite movies that he had done because he was actually given an opportunity to play a good guy.

Yeah, I mean, it’s. You know, nineties B movie. Yeah. So it’s, no, it’s, it’s no masterpiece. But, but he’s good in it and it’s a fun ride. 

Todd: And this movie was big. Oh yeah. I mean, for a b movie, this, this movie was huge when it came out. This is smack dab in the middle of high school. My friends and I rented it as soon as it came out on video.

What I remember about it was, this is the movie with the boobs. Mm-hmm. Natasha Henstridge naked through most of the movie, and that’s about all I remember. Oh, and she’s playing an alien who’s trying to mate with people. That’s all I remembered about the movie Uhhuh. That’s all that teenage Todd cared about.

And it delivered, it delivered on those fronts. Yeah. I honestly couldn’t have. Recounted the plot to you before I watched it again, except for the fact that I know that I remember it being just this very basic film. It was almost typical. Mm-hmm. Really nineties sci-fi thriller type thing where it’s ultimately just kind of a chase movie where this gal is one step ahead of the people who are trying to track her down, and in the meantime she’s leaving a trail of bodies.

Uh, in her way. 

Craig: Right. There’s even a part where Michael Matson’s character, whose name is Press, I think maybe Preston, but they call him press for short after we are introduced to the whole alien thing, which we’ll get back to. There’s a meeting of what I ended up calling the team because they’re just kind of like this ragtag team of like a psychologist and an empath and a, a tough guy, and Ben Kingsley, who is the scientist.

Who is in charge of this thing explains what happened, and he explains that sometime in the recent past, they received communication from an intelligent alien species. 

Clip: There were two distinct communications. The first message turned out to be a superior catalyst for methane. We now have the potential to produce an infinite amount of energy from this clean burning fuel.

This convinced us that we were dealing with a friendly intelligence. The second message turned out to be a new sequence of DNA with a rather friendly instructions on how to combine it with ours. Here’s some technical data on the whole operation. You can get feedback on it from Dr. Baker. Basically, the new combined DNA sequence was injected into 100 human over.

Craig: He says it so seriously, like it’s just so matter of fact. But like I’m thinking, oh, that sounds like a great idea. Like Right. Even, I mean they, they send us the methane, so they must be friendly, right? So they, um, yeah. So they immediately do and they create this creature, which appears human. Ages at 

Todd: an incredibly advanced rate until the movie gets going, and then she freezes in time to a hot 20 something year old gal.

Pretty much she ages. It all only takes place over two days, right? But still, my impression was it was like three days max that she had gone from an embryo into this girl who ends up escaping. Am I wrong? And, 

Craig: uh, I don’t remember. I, I think it was days. Yeah. And, and, and then they were gonna try to destroy her, but she escaped and, and he’s, Kingsley is telling this whole story and then either he or somebody else kind of patronizingly asks Michael Matson the question 

Clip: as the, um.

Well, the non-scientist amongst us are, you would talk clear about what’s going on here. Well, I think so. You created a monster with some kind of formula you got from outer space. The damn thing got away and now you want us to hunt it down and kill it. Is that pretty close? 

Craig: And they’re like. Yeah, I, I guess that’s the gist of it.

Todd: That’s, that’s the movie in a nutshell. Just, yeah. And that’s, 

Craig: that’s it. And then it becomes a chase scene 

Todd: in case we are stupid. The nineties movies did this to a crazy degree where there would just be this point in the movie where somebody would lay out the movie premise for you. Just in case you hadn’t caught it by then.

I do feel like movies of this era, and this is a perfect example of them, we’re very much just like, we just think you’re all basic and we’re gonna give you everything upfront and we’re gonna spell it out for you. And anytime there might be anything that we’ve hinted at in the past, we will make sure there is a point where we spell it out for you later.

In case you didn’t catch it earlier. You know what I mean? I do know what you mean, and I say that because I’ve watching this movie, it just took me back to that era. I’m like, yeah, this is like the rock. This is like every nineties action movie. Out there really, except it just involves an alien. Or it could be a, you could call it a slasher.

Yeah, you could. It’s, it’s very familiar and I have no complaints about it. I really don’t. No, I mean, if, if you’re into this kind of thing, you’re into it. If, if you don’t wanna see it, then that’s fine. But I was, I was curious about the premise though. I, I thought the premise is really clever. We’ve seen a lot of movies that kick off.

You know, we recently did Predator, all these movies that kick off with a shot of earth. And you see this tiny little something, whether it’s a comet, whether it’s a spaceship, whether it’s a pod or something, fly into the atmosphere and you’re clued into, okay, aliens have landed. And that’s what the movie’s gonna be about.

This isn’t about an alien landing. An alien doesn’t visit the planet. The screenwriter picked up on an on, on an idea by Arthur C. Clark, a very famous, a sci-fi novelist. And just in case you guys don’t know, and one thing that he said was like, when you consider everything involved, the, the improbability of faster than light travel, the size of the universe, uh, and all these things, the idea that an advanced civilization would find us and visit us is almost.

Infinitesimally small. This takes the notion that, well, of course, so, so that doesn’t happen. But other aliens could be sending out signals like we’re sending out signals with Seti. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. 

Todd: And they used this way to plant themselves onto our planet. And I’d forgotten that aspect of this movie. And I thought, oh God, that’s really smart.

The screenwriter, by the way, 10 years before this, his very first produced screenplay was. Just one of the guide. 

Craig: That’s funny. I like that movie. 

Todd: How? How many times have you and I referenced that movie on this show? That’s a great movie. We loved it. Caught it on cable all the time in the nineties. Yeah, it was such a good one.

He didn’t do much. He did this, he, he did just one of the guys. He did The Golden Child, which was the Eddie Murphy movie. 

Craig: I like that movie too. It is good. And that kind of tracks that movie is a lot like this one in many ways with like creatures and like, you know, kind of a quest, kind of uhhuh. Narrative.

It makes a lot of sense. Very similar. That makes sense to me. 

Todd: Yeah, so he just picked up on those ideas from Arthur C. Clark. He had written a movie between the Golden Child and this one called Real Men that involved aliens and stuff, and, and he kind of wanted to do another one. And I think the script went through a lot of changes and revisions, both before it was accepted and during production as well.

Got a lot of, a lot of people had their hands in the pie. Frank Mancuso Jr. Who is the longtime producer of the Friday, the 13th franchise. Ended up picking it up and then pulled HR Geiger. Mm-hmm. To do a creature design. And I mean, you can tell ’cause it’s totally his style. Oh yeah. But it’s interesting to see how much he really tried to vary this from Alien.

So much so that apparently he was heavily involved in giving script notes, requesting changes to the movie and all kinds of stuff because he just did not want this to feel like another rehash of Alien. Because in many ways it really just does feel like that already. 

Craig: Well, and there are parts of it, particularly towards the end, that feel very, the, the final sequence feels very much like it.

Oh, yeah. You 

Todd: could list it out exactly. And I think he did, I think he wrote notes. He said the, these are the like six ways that this movie totally references alien. Can we have the creature die slightly different way in the end. So it’s not by flamethrower, which was what originally was in it, you know, stuff like that.

So, um, it’s cool to see a movie where everybody’s, you know, contributing and everybody’s allowed to contribute. That’s probably how this thing came together and became so successful. It’s just kind of a wild, fun ride. 

Craig: Mm-hmm. I 

Todd: don’t think it’s gonna win big awards. No. I think reviews on it are even kind of mixed, but mostly it’s just do you like this kind of movie or not?

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: If you’re not, then just watch something else. That’s kind of how, ultimately, maybe I’m skipping to the end here, but that’s ultimately my take on this movie. It’s a fun ride for what it is. Yeah, 

Craig: for what it is exactly. And I mean, that’s what most of the fan reviews say. Like if you look at IMDB, it’s got, I dunno, like a six or a seven or something like that.

Not, not. Super high ratings, but most people are like, it’s a pretty good B movie. You know, like, yeah, what do you expect from this type of movie? It is what it is. And you know, it’s, it hits lots of marks for a lot of people. You’ve got a sexy lady who shows her boobs quite a bit. You’ve got, you know, some.

Pretty big action sequences. You’ve got a cool designed alien. It moves pretty quickly. It stars a lot of people that you’re gonna recognize. Big names, Oscar winners and nominees and stars of stage screen and television. It’s got a lot going for it. I’m, I’m sure it had a big budget. 35 million. That’s, that’s pretty big.

Yeah, it’s pretty big for a B movie. Yeah. The only thing, and I’m not gonna say I’m gonna complain about it, but. In critiquing it from a 2025 perspective, the digital effects are, are pretty lacking. Yeah. The design looks great. I love the design, but it looks like a video game from 2000. You know what, 

Todd: it kind of reminded me a little bit of when we did the relic.

Yeah. Where the shots where you could tell it was practical. Because they did have some practical puppets and things like that in here, just like in the Relic. That was pretty good. But then it was immediately apparent when it would switch to CGI because it was, yeah, not complimentary at all. By today’s perspective.

By today’s perspective, and still, well, still fun. Not Leprechaun four bad, you know? No, 

Craig: no. I mean, it was still fun. Yeah. It just, it’s very clearly CGI. It’s not. Fooling anybody and that’s fine. That’s where we were in 1995. Mm-hmm. So whatever, everything else about it, I pretty much liked. I mean, I, I also think that it’s kind of a cool thing that the movie.

This, this alien human hybrid, I suppose is the antagonist of the movie, but to call her it the villain isn’t really fair. Uh, that’s right. This individual being didn’t ask to be created, didn’t, you know, whatever of her race of beings, whatever they are, you know, they intended this to happen. She’s still an individual and didn’t ask for it, and they.

Create her in a test tube, an incubator and everything, but it goes super, super fast. And I think they show her, I don’t know, they show a, a very small girl who looks like she’s maybe six or something and say, this is just three days. Three weeks. I don’t remember what they said, but it’s super, super fast.

And then she becomes a very young Michelle Williams. I didn’t look into this, but. It wouldn’t surprise me if this was one of the first things that Michelle Williams ever did. It must be, it’s definitely before Dawson’s Creek, which is where her career really took off. She’s very young in this, but very cute.

And what I was trying to get at was I like that. I think that the filmmakers are making an effort to endear us to this character. Before she starts killing people. So then ultimately, when she starts killing people, it’s exciting and I know that they have to catch her and she’s ultimately a very big threat because what she wants to do is reproduce, which is all just based on instinct again.

Yeah, it’s not malicious. Yeah. She’s, I, I don’t know the. Technical definition of an anti-hero, but she’s, she’s at, at very least a sympathetic villain. 

Todd: She is. And, and that strikes you from the very beginning. It’s clear they’re trying to do this, even as you know, she’s being gassed in that chamber because they decide, why do they decide they need to gas her?

Because what was it, he explains it later. I don’t remember. I don’t remember if it was just that she was growing too fast, that she was growing too fast, and they decided they needed to, to take their time with this and, and not, not maybe they had made a mistake. Or 

Craig: something. I guess she’s having weird 

Todd: dreams, but it’s not like they can tap into those, 

Craig: right.

I don’t know. And I don’t know if they know that she’s super strong. I don’t know. I think it, I think it’s just a matter of it’s, it’s happening too fast and it’s unpredictable and we don’t, we need to take a step back and do it more slowly. I think that’s all that it was. Yeah. But I mean, Ben Kingsley. I’m gonna probably just keep calling him that, but his name is Fitch.

In the movie, if I, if I call him that, he’s kind of the head scientist in charge and honestly I would think of him more as the villain, but he’s difficult to think of as the villain too, because he’s just strictly science. 

Todd: He is, and he is really not wrong. I mean, everything that he’s doing is actually kind of smart.

You know, there’s that classic scene where. There’s two of the team in a room and with the, with the experiment, uh, I may be jumping the gun here a little bit, but they decide for other reasons that they, they wanna go back and make her without the human part, right. 

Craig: So that they can better understand her nature.

And, and I thought that was actually a really clever idea. And it’s not even, I don’t remember Mark Helgenberger, what is her care, Laura? Yeah. Yeah. She is a molecular biologist. She’s on the team also. Like I told you, there’s this ragtag team or whatever, and she has the idea. Once the thing’s name is sill, it stands for something, but I don’t know what.

Once she escapes and they’re trying to find her, but they’re having difficulty finding her, mark Helgen Berger’s character says, why don’t we just create it without the human thing? So then we have more of an idea of what its nature is. And yeah, I’m thinking nobody thought of that before this, right? Like I might have thought, I don’t know, I’m no scientist, but I might have thought if an alien sends us its DNA and says, Hey, put it together with some human DNA, I might have thought, well, let’s see what its DNA is.

First, right before we start mixing it with things, since it’s clearly possible. I know, but, but science, I don’t know. In, in the wrong hands. Potentially. Even in the right hands can be reckless. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, we’re seeing that now. Well, and I, but we’ve always seen it, I mean, even, you know, with like atomic power and stuff.

True. Like sometimes risks have to be taken for progress. And so again, that’s why Ben Kingsley’s character. I am rooting against him. ’cause he seems mean, you know, he, it just, it feels to me as the viewer, very inhumane that he would gas this precious little girl who has no idea what’s going on. Who, who asked for none of this.

Who they’ve been keeping in complete isolation, like hooked up to wires and stuff from the time that she was born. You know, the empath of the group, Forrest Whitaker, Dan, when he’s being told this and he’s being shown videos, he’s saying she didn’t like that she didn’t like. Being confined. She didn’t like being alone.

She’s, she’s scared. Now, to be frank, I think that his character is really stupid. Oh God, yes. And a really stupid, stupid plot device. Yes. That’s the old i’ll, I mean, it’s a silly movie overall, but that is a, writing that character in is silly because he identifies as an empath. But the truth of the matter is he’s just psychic.

Yeah, I mean, he just knows everything. Like he’s just a human barometer of everything. Like he knows every move that everybody’s gonna make. He knows everything that everybody, including this alien being, he can sense 

Todd: when someone’s outside, you know, he could look at a photograph and be like, she was in pain and she felt this and this and this.

Like, come on. He’s just a way to move them. And almost every time too, which is also what’s annoying about this movie, is he is their way to move them from place to place, Uhhuh. Oh. And now I sense that she’s over here and that’s where they go, you know, in almost every circumstance he has a sense. That maybe she’s somewhere else.

And so that’s where they ended up going. And of course she was just there. 

Craig: Well, and in the final pursuit, he’s like a blood house. 

Todd: I thought of him. I thought of him as the meter and alien. That’s beeping, you know? Yeah.

Craig: Okay, fine, whatever. But early on in the movie, he tells us, oh, she’s scared, she’s unhappy, she doesn’t like this. So we feel empathy for her and we feel bad that this mean scientist, you know, tried to gas her. And, 

Todd: but even, even in that moment, I think they actually pull a little bit of a hat trick on you here.

Where he’s standing up tall, he’s lit from below. He, he’s got a very stern look on his face. He nods to order the gas to come in, and you can see that this little girl’s being gassed and she’s crying and she’s pleading and she’s pounding on the doors, looking up at him, and he just stands there staring down at her, but then a tear comes down his face.

And he says, I’m so sorry, which she sees him mouth and you, and you’re like, oh, wait a minute. Alright. He doesn’t wanna be doing this, but he’s making the decision that has to be made. Right. And I feel like that was his character and I think that’s what you’re getting at. That was his character throughout the whole thing.

Yeah. He’s not the stereotypical, he’s not the Paul riser of Alien, you know, who’s willing to kind of sacrifice everything for the, for the whatever, for science, correct? No, he actually. He has a lot of sympathy too, and I feel like most, most of the movie, he’s actually making all the right calls, even when, like I said, in that one moment where they go into the lab and they decide to create her without the human part of the DNA, and they have that classic scene, you know, it’s like the beginning of the rock with Nick Ca in there.

Now the scientists are trapped in the room with the bad thing happening and the people outside. Are unwilling to open the doors because if they do that, bad thing’s gonna get out and destroy everybody else and possibly the world. Right. You can’t really knock him 

Craig: for that, you know, in theory. Yeah. I, I, and I totally get it in theory, and, and it, it is the practical decision.

It makes more sense. Well, 

Todd: it’s the responsible decision. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. Right. You, you, you know, you risk. It becoming uncontained and, and getting out. And it’s weird because the sill alien, you know, she, she appears human, but she eventually transforms. I’m, I’m not really sure if she can transform it will, or if this is just a continuation of her transformation.

I think it’s just a continuation of her transformation. But she ultimately looks humanoid, but very alien. And very hr, very HR Geiger. It’s very in keeping with his style. Yeah. Yeah. He, he does, uh, include a lot of sexuality and she’s voluptuous and like she can shoot tentacles out of her nipples that can, like strangle people and stuff.

I like that. It’s weird. 

Todd: Have you ever flipped through a Geiger, uh, his, any of his book, like Books of Art or anything like that? 

Craig: I know that I have, but it’s been a while. I, I basically, what I can remember is that, you know, his style is pretty consistent. Yeah. And it’s, it’s pretty consistent with the design of the Xenomorph and with the stuff that you see in this movie.

Yep. And, and you, there’s definitely, I mean, the XR. They had to get him to tone down the phallic nature of it. Yeah. It was initially, and it, and it’s still, it’s head is still pretty phallic. 

Todd: Oh yeah. His art is all just vaginas and phalluses and things going into mouths and stuff like that. I mean, uhhuh, every single bit of it, it’s super consistent.

So, uh, no, no big surprises there. No, it’s actually kind of a shock that it ever got that his heart ever got tapped for film. I know. I mean, you, it’s good art, but like, you know, again, you gotta tame it down considerably. For film and even then even the Zemo morph is just dripping with this stuff, you know, 

Craig: Uhhuh, literally, 

Todd: it’s 

Craig: funny.

But yeah, I mean, so Michelle Williams escapes and, and she’s young and she hops a train. It’s interesting, this alien adapts pretty quickly. She picks up basic language. She is observant and you know, can pick up on human behaviors in that if you trade this green paper. For things you can, you know, get stuff like, so she, she somehow acquires money.

I don’t even remember how, but she, and she starts, you know, giving people money for products and services and stuff. But on this train, she’s eating ravenously. We find out later it’s because she was like preparing for a metamorphosis and then she builds like, builds isn’t the right word, but forms this.

Cocoon in the train car that she’s in. And though again, she really never seems malicious. In fact, she can interact pretty well with people. She interacts with this train attendant, this, this lady who’s very nice to her and they have kind of a nice interaction. Yeah. But we’re always reminded that she is an evolving creature and that part of her evolution is to feed and to.

Kill in defense of herself or, or whatever. And though she does have a kindly interaction with this train lady, when the train lady comes back to check on her and finds this giant cocoon, a big tentacle, shoots out of it and, and kills her, and she leaves a trail of bodies throughout this movie, we, you don’t, we don’t even see, we see her kill multiple people.

Yeah. But we don’t even see every kill. Like the team just kind of follows this trail of bodies. 

Todd: They just, they’re always just like, just a little bit late to the party. 

Craig: Oh my God. There are like five seconds late every time. Which 

Todd: is also silly. It’s also silly how quickly they discover where she might be going next.

I mean, it’s the kind of movie you, you don’t want to. Think too much about, I think Roger Ebert said that in his mo in his review, he was like, you, you don’t, if you really stop to think about what’s going on, it all kind of falls apart because what leads them from one place to another place to another place.

The clues and things that they get, they’re so dumb. And again, most of it involve, revolves around this empath sensing things. So, uh, 

Craig: well, I mean, she does leave. I mean, even just what I’ve already said, the, the, the fact that. And somebody makes a joke at some point, they’re like, of course, Los Angeles is perfect for her.

It’s a city of the future. 

Clip: Anything goes totally mobile population. Everyone’s a stranger. Very little in this town, is taboo or 

Craig: unacceptable. Whatever she does, no one’s going to notice. Which to some extent I think is absolutely true, but it, you do have to kind of take a leap of blind faith to believe that she could acclimate so quickly.

You do. She, she learns how to drive. She uses a credit card. She goes shopping and buys a wedding dress and wears it around for a while. 

Todd: That was 

Craig: hilarious, but. She could have, Natasha Hinrich could have gotten away with walking around in anything she wanted to in 1995. Oh 

Todd: yeah. 

Craig: She was stunningly beautiful.

She looked like a fashion model. She was, no, I don’t think anybody would’ve batted an eye at her wearing that dress. No, not at all. I, 

Todd: I, she would’ve been the, one of the least weird people walking down the street, I think. 

Craig: But aside from figuring out that she was in la, which I don’t really remember, they, they get close because one guy she kills, she has his money, she uses it to check into a motel as an alien would do, I suppose.

Where, where she, uh, watches porn. 

Todd: Yeah. Well, everything she sees on the. TV ends up the TV, feeds her a lot of information, including the very specific bit of usefulness that will come to her later, which is you can dye your hair. Oh yeah. How many 

Craig: times. That’s right. 

Todd: Did we see the hair dyeing ad before that became relevant and then That’s right.

That’s funny. The stupid thing later is that one of the members of our team, and actually I think it’s Forrest Whitaker, sees the same ad on television in the motel, and that gives them the idea. Wait a minute. Maybe she changed her appearance. Come on. This entire team of supposed experts in all this, it didn’t cross their mind once that this would, that this would be a thing.

He had to see the same ad on television to get that idea. 

Craig: It’s, I mean, it’s silly. Whatever. It works. The only thing she does to change her appearance is dye her hair. She’s, she’s blonde naturally, and she dyes her hair brunette now, to be fair, they’ve never gotten a real good look at her. No, that’s true.

They’ve seen some kind of grainy footage of her from the motel where she used. A credit card. The guy at the, the desk was like, we have to have your credit card on file. So she gave the credit card. That’s how they initially got close to her. Right. And then from then on they were just kind of always just one step behind for one reason or another.

And again, it’s jumping ahead. We can jump back, but by the time. She dyes her hair. It’s not just a matter of them not recognize her because she like did the Clark Kent glasses type thing. They also think she’s dead. Yeah. And also, to be fair, they were skeptical of that and felt that they had been reassured.

So they were fairly reassured that she was dead. Natasha Henstridge is so striking. The, there’s no way I would be shocked. I would be shocked that even from just the grainy imagery that they’d seen of her, that they wouldn’t at least give her a second glance. Yeah. Because she’s just so, so striking. But whatever they don’t, it’s fine.

A lot of it, a lot of what we skipped. Is just them constantly on her tail and once she sees porn, that really gets her biological clock ticking. And then she’s on the prowl for men, so, so she asks the motel clerk. Who I was shocked didn’t just say like, well, I’m a man, 

Todd: right? I thought that would be the first thing.

He didn’t seem like the most up and up guy anyway. 

Craig: Right. Maybe she wasn’t his type. I don’t know. But he was far less skeevy than I would’ve expected from him, for sure. But he sends her to a club and she goes to a club and she kind of observe. People flirting and she sees this, well, a guy approaches her and she’s talking to him, and then another woman breaks in and drops some cheesy line and kind of steals the guy that SIL was flirting with.

So she follows this lady into the bathroom and kills her through the wall. Yeah, like the girl’s in the bathroom stall. And I’m, I’m not really exactly sure how this, how did that happen? And I 

Todd: don’t know, it looked like a Beetlejuice move, like just this weird hand kind of shot out of the wall from behind this girl.

Craig: From behind her, but it doesn’t even make any sense how she behind the wall. Yeah. How? Because she, she’s in the bathroom with this lady and they have a brief interaction and then the lady goes in the stall and Natasha Ridge leaves the room. So I guess she went what? Into the men’s restroom, into the utility closet on the other side of the wall.

And, and I don’t know. I don’t know, but she shoots like a tentacle through and it kills the lady. Yeah, it’s weird and it’s, it’s bloody and gross. And there’s, you know, these practical effects when she’s killing people, they, they’re gory and Oh 

Todd: yeah. The aftermath of that’s really pretty good too. 

Craig: And and they, it really doesn’t pull any punches.

I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty violent and gory and so if you’re into that kind of stuff and practical effects it, the movie’s probably worth it just for that alone. But she also takes off her top a lot. She sure does. If you’re into that, she takes a, I don’t know, I was gonna say a skeevy guy, but whatever.

She just hits on this guy and she gets in to take. Her home and it looks like she’s down to go. You know, like he says he’s gonna go take a shower and she follows him in there and you know, is kind of leering at his body and he comes out and tells her to take her clothes off and she does. And they start getting closer to one another when all of a sudden she’s just not into it anymore.

What was that all about? Did she sense something? Okay. Yes. I mean, it’s explained to us later, but in the moment it was so confusing because like she was so into it and we already know that she’s motivated to mate the Mark Helden Berger character has already told us that she’s developing, you know, she’s following her natural instincts.

Her natural life cycle, and at this point, you know her, her body would be telling her that it is time to procreate. And so we know that already. But then she has this guy in her grasp and he’s totally into it and she rejects him and then he gets rapey and she kills him. Yeah. Yeah, that was awesome. Yeah, she kisses him and kind of, you know, XR tongue shots through his, the back of his head.

Also like Alien? Yes. Very much. When the team arrives, three seconds later, they put all this together and they’re like, well, she had a guy right here. Why wouldn’t she be with him? And I think it’s Mark Helgenberger. It’s like, well, maybe. She could sense that there was something wrong with him. I think that she cites some other species that can do that.

Like they can, you know, sense desirable versus undesirable mates and they’re like, well, maybe there was something wrong with him, and they look around for two seconds and find that he has syringes and insulin. So he was diabetic, so he was a less than perfect specimen for her to mate with. She, she 

knows 

Todd: so much about biology at this point.

Do you remember how they got here, by the way, now that I remembered it? No. They ask like the club owner, 

Clip: blue eyed blonde, black leggings, pink sweater, five foot 10 inches tall. Who’d she leave with? 

Todd: Blue eyed blonde leaves with a guy, sadly. News 

Clip: around here, just named the top attractions. The regulars, no losers.

You should assume he’s socially aep. You’ll be hopping around. She’s in, we’re looking for a friendly guy, not a total asshole. I’m thinking, I’m thinking. Robbie left with a blonde that’s 

Todd: this owner, like keeps tabs of all of the people in this gigantic club that is just packed to the gills with bodies and is like, oh, yeah, yeah, there’s like six really nice ones.

And oh yeah, I happen to notice that he left with a blonde. How many people were leaving with blondes that night? Come on. Right. 

Craig: Like she was the only blonde in the club. Right. So stupid. I know. And it’s all like that. I mean, it’s all just very silly clues. Like she, so she steals the guy that she just killed, she steals his car and she, you know, she watched him drive once, so she knows how to drive now.

And she just drives it around and eventually it runs outta gas. Somewhere in la she almost gets hit. She does get hit. She gets to, she gets nailed by, like, she gets out of the car and she’s on the street and she gets nailed by this car and thrown through one of those glass bus stops. Like, yeah, a a, an actual human.

Most likely would’ve been killed. It would’ve been shocking for somebody to survive that. Oh yeah. And she is unconscious and some handsome guy in a red convertible pulls up and like tends to her and I guess somehow gets her to the hospital, whether he called the ambulance or whatever. We don’t see that.

What we do see is him standing at the nurses’ station saying, I don’t know her name. I just wanted to make sure she was okay. And the nurse is like, well. She has no ID on her and she has no insurance, and the guy’s like, oh, that’s fine. Just put it on my credit card. Like what? Nicest guy. This stranger in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she, she’s hot. There’s no question there. I get it. She’s certainly hot, but the only interaction that he’s had with her is her laying in a crumpled unconscious mess. Rubble. Sure. And getting her to the hospital, like I, I see checking in on her, but like putting her medical bills on your credit card, those would be some serious bills too.

And that’s fine, but it’s stupid. It’s just so that when she miraculously heals herself in front of a befuddled doctor, right. Who then just gets whisked away by his nurses and he’s like, wait a second. Did you see that? Yeah. Then so she comes out, she sees nice guy standing there and she’s like, can you get me outta here?

And he’s like, did the doctor say it was okay for you to leave? And she’s like, yeah, it’s cool. So they leave. So the whole reason for him putting his credit card there was so that the team could then follow that trail? Yeah. To Rich guy’s house. Where once again, like she’s, she’s seducing this guy and this guy apparently is fine.

Todd: He’s a nice dude too. He’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. Too fast, you know? 

Craig: Yeah. And she gets him in the hot tub and she’s really, you know, she’s trying to make stuff happen really fast. And like the team, at least Michael Madson and, and Mark Helgenberger show up while this is still happening. Yes. Like, like they are like knocking on the door and like, like snooping around while this is happening.

So because she’s interrupted, she pushes nice guy under the water and he’s drowning. But then this is when she transforms. And again, I, it’s unclear to me, I don’t know if it’s because she feels threatened. Because she does go back to human form after this. Yes. So I do think it must be kind of an at will kind of thing.

Yeah. But she turns into this alien type thing. She shoots tentacles out of her nipples, strangles the guy. But by the time the team, you know, get out there, he’s already dead. Like they’re just seconds too late. Like if you had just been a little faster, that guy could have been Okay. 

Todd: Well they’re so on the tail end of this that she is watching them.

As they’re investigating that, she has gone, she’s gotten a car, she’s driven it around somewhere. She’s gotten outta the car. She’s come back and she’s looking through the bushes and watching them as they’re examining the hot tub. 

Craig: And reading Ben’s Ben Kingsley’s lips, so she knows what their plans are.

Their plans are to scout the club, the same club they were at this night because he thinks she’ll go back there for some reason. That I don’t understand, but maybe he just thinks that 

Todd: she’s going to the club repeatedly to, to find another man. I don’t know. I mean, you’re right, it is. It is the most. Like, if I were on this team, I’d be like, nah, I don’t think she’s going back there.

Uh, 

Craig: well, he’s underestimating her. She’s clearly, she right. She’s clearly very resourceful and, and smart. Like it would be foolish of her to go back to the same place. Yeah. I don’t think she would have, I don’t know. Ben Kingsley is also acting very shady at this point. I don’t know. I don’t even really know what he’s trying to do, but anyway, she knows now for me, I can pretty much get down with everything that’s happened up until this point.

At this point, it really starts to get ridiculous. Yes, because she puts together a fucking James Bond spy diversion that surely would’ve taken years to plan and would’ve been nearly impossible. Ball to execute perfectly, and yet she executes it perfectly. She stages her own death in the most extravagant 

Todd: of ways.

It didn’t need to be this extravagant, but yeah, and also this is the point at which she starts to do very indefensible things as far as when we were talking about her just acting on instinct. I mean, of course, you know the whole thing is instinct, but she leaps naked again. She’s naked. Into a car with a woman who’s at a gas station and basically the says I’m in trouble.

Trouble, I guess, and drives off. The next thing we know, she’s got this woman tied up. Bound and gag her bed. She has this weird conversation with her. Like, do you ever have nightmares? I think this was supposed to be kind of, I don’t wanna say darkly humorous, where she’s asking this woman who’s bound and gagged next to her, do you ever have nightmares?

’cause she’s being plagued by these nightmares, uh, of, of herself or her nature or something like that. Mm-hmm. And this woman’s like, no, just let me go, let me go. And she’s like, huh, I, well, you know, I have these nightmares and they’re terrible. Anyway, she cuts her thumb off in front of this woman, which regenerates.

Puts it in her bag, then goes over to the woman, cuts her thumb off. 

Craig: Yeah, and I didn’t know what was going on. It was very strange. The, the thing about the, I, I felt like this was the writer’s attempt at kind of an existential moment. Like, ah, right. When she’s asking about those nightmares, she’s like, I have these nightmares.

And those, they’re so terrible. They’re so frightening because they show me who I really am. Ah, and again, that’s a little deep for this type of movie, but I think that it’s, it’s kind of her coming to terms with what she really is. It’s. Frightening. But it may also give her the ability to do these, like, like you said, these increasingly indefensible things.

This, this woman that she’s taken hostage, not only is she innocent, but she offered still help. Yeah. You 

Todd: know? Right. At the same sense. You’re still kind of rooting for her because like you just said, oh yeah, this scene just lays bare that she’s really not that bad. She’s just acting. It’s like any one of the animal attack movies, you know, that we’ve done like alligators.

Yeah, 

Craig: right. Are you gonna be mad at Jaws, right? Yeah. They just 

Todd: are what they are. It’s just doing what it does like, so you’re still kind of rooting for it. And I think in that way that’s how it’s a little different from Alien and, and a lot of these other films where you’re rooting for the good guys, you’re kind of rooting for her ’cause she’s not really a crazy bad person either.

You’re just interested to see where this goes, but it just gets increasingly ridiculous. Like you said, they’re at the club and Dan is still their secret weapon and he just feels something. Right. He goes outside, he touches the ground. I was like, what? What? I thought he was an empath. How is he like sensing things through the ground?

Two guys pop out of a dumpster. What were they doing in there? I was curious about that. Then there’s a car and uh, she’s there and she hops in the car and she takes off. Then there’s a big car and helicopter chase. And 

Craig: it’s all intentional. This is all a ruse. She, she exposes herself and she wants them to chase her because like you said, we got a whole big sequence where she was filling up these big drums of gasoline and we, she’s got this woman that she’s taken hostage, she’s got her tied up in the passenger seat.

And it was, at this point I was like, oh, this is stupid. But the reason she cut off their thumbs is because she is going to fake her own death. Oh, 

Todd: this is so stupid. 

Craig: And use this woman. Okay, so. She has them chase her in a car and, and like, I don’t know if it’s Mulholland, but it’s one of those, you know, highways right on the mountain.

Looks like she’s up by the 

Todd: Hollywood sign or something, you know, it’s just way up in the mountain. You’re 

Craig: right. So, so she, she intentionally drives off a cliff and then as the car’s going down the cliff, she jumps out of the car at the same time pulling the other woman into the driver’s seat, and the car hits something and explodes.

A huge explosion, massive, because of all the gas in there. Helicopters come in and like missile shoot the 

Todd: whole area, shoot missiles into this car. This car has already had a mushroom cloud explosion. Then two helicopters come and just for good measure, shoot two missiles at it, to which it explodes even more.

Craig: But she easily gets away. But the whole thumb thing where she’s like, oh, they’ll find the thumb, which they do, and then they do 

Todd: this, this, this cop comes running up to get Ben Kinsley and it’s like, oh, by the way, this is like. Maybe three minutes after the explosion. Yeah, he runs up to Ben Kinsley. It’s like we found this thumb in the door.

It’s probably like, you know, as she was trying to escape or something. Do you mean to tell me that there is anything left? This little chunk of severed thumb that she put in the door, they’re actually gonna find, 

Craig: and it’s, and it’s dumb, but you know, she was right to suspect that they would be suspicious, but they checked the DNA of the thumb and they’re like, oh, yep, that’s her.

She must be dead. So. They go to hang out at a hotel, she goes to dye her hair and then comes to the same hotel that they’re at. I don’t get this either. I think that we are intended to believe that she’s lusting after Michael Madson and maybe kind of Yes, intentionally following him around. There was 

Todd: a scene earlier Yeah.

Where she kind of saw him get into an elevator and got all hot and bothered. 

Craig: Okay. All right. So now she, they’re all there. She’s there. She’s brunette. She interacts with several of them and them recognize her. That’s funny. There’s also, they’re, you know, they’re setting up this romantic tension between Michael Matson and Mark Helgenberger and will they, won’t they?

Who cares? 

Todd: It’s kind of thrown in there. 

Craig: Yeah. They end up going upstairs to Laura’s room. Mark Helgenberger and Sil follows Michael Madson up there, but he goes in and then she just stands outside the door. Getting really horny, listening to them. Bang. Yeah. And then a maid comes around the corner, so she has to, she can’t just be, you know, hanging out in the hall, like rubbing her nub listening to these guys.

So, so she steals the maid’s keys and goes into the room next door, which turns out to be. Alfred Molina’s door. I don’t think that we’ve even mentioned him. No, but he’s on the team 

Todd: too. He’s here as well. He’s one of the most useless people on this team. But yeah, 

Craig: I think he’s supposed to be comic relief, but he’s not really there enough to really be all that funny.

He looks great. He’s very young and he’s handsome. Yeah, he’s fun. He just, we haven’t said much about ’em ’cause there’s not a lot to say. He goes in his door and she’s there and he’s like, what are you doing here? And she’s like, I saw you downstairs, but you were talking to other people. So I decided just to come up and wait for you.

And she starts taking off her clothes and he’s like, things like this never happened to me. And he jumps on the bed and takes off all his clothes and they start banging. Now he was, you know, he had been drinking and he was, you know, trying to meet a lady downstairs. This is a strange woman that. He’s never seen before.

Todd: Right? An odd resemblance that you probably wouldn’t have to think too hard. You know, it’s not a huge leap from those grainy motel, you know, videos. The other thing I think is a little unconvincing about this movie is how it’s a very solid point when Bing Kinsley is like, okay, she’s dead. Everything’s good, and almost everybody else in the team is like, eh, I’m not sure.

I don’t buy it. This is fishy. And then their secret weapon, Dan, is like, no. No, man, I don’t, I I, something’s wrong. Something’s wrong. Like the guy they’ve been listening to this whole time, and it’s been right every single time. They’re like, no, man, she’s dead. Don’t worry about it. Look, just drink some Long Island iced teas and forget about it.

Yeah. Come on in. In a better movie, this would’ve been a plot point where they would’ve all continued with their skepticism and that would’ve led them to discover that she is in fact still alive. But now all their guards are just down. It’s like a couple drinks and they don’t care anymore. 

Craig: Well, except for Dan, who can sense that she’s near and that she’s having sex.

So he goes, uh, to the room that SIL and that other guy Alfred Molina are in, and he listens in for a second, and then he goes right next door and knocks on. Michael Madson and, and Mark Berger’s door. And it’s like she’s alive and she’s in there and they’re banging. And Michael Madden’s like, no, she’s not.

And he’s like, yes she is. And he’s like, okay, I believe you. 

Todd: That’s literally how it goes down. 

Craig: So he takes as much time as he needs to get dressed and then they go. Over there. I 

Todd: love this bit by the way, 

Craig: before they get there, Alfred Molina comes and within 10 seconds she’s pregnant. Sil is like, I can feel it.

And he’s like, what are you talking about? And she’s like. New life. And he’s like, ha, that’s funny. And she’s like, no, seriously feel it. And she puts his hand on her stomach and he feels something moving around in there. And of course freaks out, realizes what’s going on. Too late she kills him and now the chase is on.

So it’s just the three of them now. It’s Ben Kingsley. No, not Ben Kingsley. No. Michael Madson. Mark Helgenberger. And. Forrest Whitaker. It’s just the three of them. How they know where she’s going. I don’t know. You know, they kind of see her and she leaves destruction, like she’s really strongly, she’s breaking down doors and stuff.

She even breaks through a steel door. Somehow they follow her into the sewer. Yes. And this is when it gets very alien because it’s very reminiscent of all, you know, all the dark hallways and pipes and steam. Tunnels. Yeah. Rivers of liquid and all that kind of stuff. She’s above them. She’s below them. Yeah, she’s in the water.

You know, she can move quickly under the water. She can, you know, watch them. They’re walking right underneath these pipes and she’s right above them and they don’t see her, but we do all this kind of stuff. Yep. It’s very alien. They’re following her around with a flame thrower. Yes, she is fleeing further and further into wherever they are because she’s also.

Gestated this entire pregnancy in a minute and a half. Yeah. And she ends up crawling through, you know, some big crack. They’re like, oh, this must have opened up, uh, when the earthquake happened. Yeah. And then they end up in some sort of cavern with a lake of oil in it. Yeah. What That’s weird. Are, are there lake lakes of oil under Los Angeles?

I, maybe there are, I don’t know, LaBrea tar pits type thing. I don’t know. I guess, I don’t know. So they, she’s in there, she gives birth. It seems like we only get a glimpse of it, but it seems like her birthing process is that her entire torso splits open. Yeah, and this thing comes out of it. She’s in full alien form at this point, by the way.

They get into that cavern where they think that she is the main guy. Michael Madson goes ahead and is like, watch my back or whatever. But Dan. Comes across the kid who is already like eight. Yeah. And just this naked boy covered kind of in gook, but. We quickly realized that he’s dangerous because he sees a rat and he reaches out to it, but he can’t reach it.

So he just shoots his tongue out of his mouth like a frog and eats the whole thing. That was cute. Yeah, it was funny. I thought it was funny. And then Dan finds him and Dan’s like, oh, I’ll be your friend. Everything’s gonna be okay. And he tries to shoot his frog tongue at him too. And Dan kind of falls over a ledge and is like hanging over the lake.

Doesn’t Michael Madson show up and kill the kid? 

Todd: Like immediately? Yeah. And then sills pissed. So sill runs over and then Michael Madson also kind of slips down through a cracker. Maybe she’s above him and her nipple tentacles come out and they grab him and, 

Craig: but he cuts it off. Yeah. He cuts the tentacle off and throws it aside.

Important for later? Yeah. Mark Helgenberger is there and she’s trying to help, but she’s not really doing anything. She’s stuck in the lake somehow. The entire lake of. Oil gets caught on fire. Yep. So, you know, they’re in this underground area. There’s fire everywhere. The whole lake is on fire. They end up somehow throwing sill into the fire and it seems like she’s dead.

And Michael Matson is trying to pull Dan up ’cause he’s still hanging over that ledge, over the burning lake and sill and engulfed in flames. Jumps up and grabs Dan’s leg and is trying to pull him down. But Michael Maxon pulls out like a. Bazooka. 

Todd: I don’t even know where it was, where that came from.

Craig: Anyway, it was some huge gun that he loads a huge round that looks like the size of a beer can into, and he blows her head off and she falls into the lake, presumably dead. They get Dan out and they’re all like, well, that was weird. And then they,

Todd: but. Then we get the inevitable, like Rat Co comes and grabs one of those nipple tentacles that have been severed and pulls it away and presumably eats some of it because, uh, the final scene I think that we get shown in the movie is this rat looks really, really mean and encounters another rat. And then it’s tongue like lashes out, like the kid’s tongue had lashed out and, uh, yeah, consumes that of the rat.

So, 

Craig: ha ha, 

Todd: ha. Its DNA is living on in these rats. Sure. And I haven’t seen Species two, so I don’t know if that literally carries through or if they took a different tack to continue the movie. 

Craig: I don’t remember. I think they take a different tack, but I don’t remember if the whole rat thing carries through.

I now, I could be totally misspeaking ’cause it’s been a while, but at the beginning of this summer, you know, when I had nothing to watch, species was on. Pluto, which runs, you know, stuff live. So you can just kind of channel switch. And I came to it, and when you go, you know it, it runs things live. But when you go to it, it gives you the option.

Of going back to the beginning, you can also stream it from them. So I saw that it was on, I hadn’t seen it in a long time, so I switched to it and I went ahead and, you know, sent it back to the beginning and watched the whole thing and then it just autoplayed the next one. So I just left it playing, if I remember correctly.

They make a new sill. Oh, still played by Natasa Hinrich. But it’s like Terminator two. Like she’s a good one. Oh, okay. And I think she like, helps ’em with stuff. Again, I could be misspeaking, I don’t know. And then there is a third one, and I, I wanna say in the third one, the alien hybrid is a man, but I don’t, I don’t even remember if I watched that one.

Neither of the sequels did. Well, they, you know, even Michael Madson said that he knew that the second one was crap, but it was a check. And why not? But yeah, I mean, this movie, it’s, it’s stupid. It’s dumb, but. But I like a lot of stupid 

Todd: movies. Yeah, it’s a fun one to just play, like, especially with friends, you know, just watch it.

And it’s a mindless action movie. There are a million of ’em. You know, there, there really are, and it’s, it’s one of the better ones, I would say. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. It’s very nineties. It’s got a very nineties feel to it, so if you’re nostalgic for that, 

Todd: I feel like the nudity was a big hook when this came out. Like that was a big I so big hook.

It was definitely played up. This was her first movie. She was already a successful model. She looks gorgeous. Mm-hmm. She’s topless in this a lot. As a teenage Todd loved this. T all of his friends did as well. I know that it, it was a huge box office success, even though it wasn’t a huge critical success.

And I’m, I mean, from $35 million budget, I think it made 113 million worldwide plus, you know, who knows what on DVD and all that stuff. It was, it was very successful in DVD and stuff as well, rentals. So, and, uh, Michael Madson, one of his favorite, uh, favorite movies to be in. And you can kind of see why.

Yeah. At least he could be a good guy in it. A GA, a good guy who’s a little shady, right? Like. He was the guy hired by the government to take care of things. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, he’s still the muscle. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But he’s, he’s working for the good people. He’s painted as the hero Yeah. Of the movie. And, and he is, he lasts, he kills the bad person, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I wouldn’t say that this is a tour to force of his acting. I, I’m sure that you could, you know Sure. Watch, watch Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction or, 

Todd: oh, yeah. Reservoir Dogs, for sure. Uh, 

Craig: even, even, I mean, as, as small a role as he has, uh, I, I really loved him in Thelman. Louise, the guy is a really good actor.

I’m glad that he had fun on this movie and made money on it and had a, you know, a good time doing it and remembered it. Fondly. Probably not his best work, but who cares? It did well. It’s still fun to watch and he was proud of it. So yeah, kudos to him. We’ll miss him. 

Todd: Alright, well thank you guys so much for, uh, joining us on this episode.

If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. If you didn’t enjoy it, please share it with a. Fred. Anyway, we just love to have you spread the word a little bit. If you really like what you hear and want to support us even further, you can join our Patreon at patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. This five bucks a month gives you access to all kinds of behind the scenes stuff, the complete unedited audio of our phone calls.

You can get, uh, mini sos that we put out on a regular basis and reviews. We have a book club going all those things. patreon.com/chainsaw podcast. Please join our newsletter. You can just go to our website, chainsaw horror.com, and uh, click on newsletter, get dates about the latest episodes we have in a few select, uh, bits of news and trivia, what’s going on in the horror community that week.

Until next time, I’m Todd. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

This week, we’re paying tribute to the late Harris Yulin by diving into the 1988 horror film ‘Bad Dreams.’

We explore Yulin’s illustrious career, his significant yet underrated roles, and his impact on Hollywood. We also dissect the plot, discuss the film’s eerie similarities to ‘A Nightmare on Elm Street,’ and reflect on its production and cast.

Don’t miss out on this deep dive into an overlooked 80’s horror flick and a talented actor’s legacy. Share your thoughts and comments below!

Episode 451, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: Well, you know how I am about tribute episodes. Maybe I get a little more enthusiastic than you are. It depends on who it is. I mean, today’s tribute is to a man named Harris, Len. I don’t think that name is on the tip of too many people’s tongues when they’re asked to, uh, spout out, you know, 10 most famous actors they know, right?

If you see this guy’s face, you’ll be like, oh, that guy. Yeah. He died in June at the age of 87. And he has been in so much stuff. In fact, I think, uh, much like the last person that we did a tribute episode for, he was kind of one of those guys who enjoyed all of the big roles and probably the money and stuff of Hollywood without having to deal with the trappings of fame.

Mm-hmm. Because he was just shy of getting that, you know, one breakout role that would just kinda lift him up and sort of define his career. But the guy is very versatile, although he did tend to get cast in a lot of roles like this. Like he is in this movie. And the movie we’re doing, by the way, is Bad Dreams from 1988.

You know, like a psychiatrist or a police officer or a, a judge. Judge, yeah. Like a doer or serious government official or something like that. You know, it was fun to learn a lot, a little bit about him. But this is why we do this. It’s so good to have an excuse to learn more about some of these guys. It is 

Craig: kind of cool.

Todd: Right. Did so, did you look up, uh, some information about him? 

Craig: Just a little bit. I mean, I, I was mostly impressed that he really started in the theater and did some really amazing stuff and worked with really amazing people. When he was a, a younger man, he, he really didn’t get into. Film and TV until the second half of his life.

But, well, I don’t know. He, he lived to be pretty old, but like in his thirties, I think. Yeah, thirties and forties. But just, just looking at his theater resume was pretty mind blowing. Tons of Shakespeare and with huge people, I wanna say like Kevin Klein and James Earl Jones and like, 

Todd: yeah. Yeah, 

Craig: I, it was really, really impressive.

Todd: It’s insane. And then you go and look at his film when he did start getting into film, you know, he’s been in so much stuff. Scarface Ghostbusters two, I remember him from Clear and Present Danger. He had a pretty big role in that one. Rush hour Rush, rush Hour two, I think. Again, we could say all these things.

You probably wouldn’t know who we’re talking about until you saw his face. I know him. Anyway, a sort of middle aged looking guy with a very, very receding hairline and just, uh, like I said, almost always, just like a serious. Ish face on i I, when I was going through and reading about some of his filmography, I saw that he played, I think it was this Wyatt Earp or Doc Holiday, I’m not sure.

One 

Craig: or the other. Yeah. 

Todd: In a movie called Doc, uh, from 1971. And I actually pulled that up and started to watch it and said, okay, I’m putting a pin in this after we record our podcast. I think tomorrow I’m gonna watch that. ’cause it looks like a really cool version of that story. He looks young in that one.

Uh, he still looks like almost exactly the same. It’s like the same. Face, just fewer wrinkles. I mean, hopefully we could all be that lucky, but he’s got these big glassy eyes that were just so much more obvious when he was younger that, I mean, a lot of expression possible with big eyes like that. It’s, uh, a weird thing to hone in on.

But it was just really jumping out at me when, uh, when I saw him in that. Anyway, there were a couple ones we could have chosen. There was the believers, which has been requested a couple times, and we briefly considered doing that, but I skimmed through the believers and I realized he didn’t have such a big role in that one.

However, in this one Bad dreams, he has a fairly significant role. He doesn’t have a ton of screen time. Mm-hmm. But, uh, his role in the story is, is pretty significant. So I’m glad we chose this one, and I’m really glad that we had the opportunity to do this movie because I’ve been wanting to do this for the podcast for a while.

Uh, had you seen this before? No. 

Craig: I don’t think I had heard of it before. 

Todd: Oh, you’d never saw it on the shelves? 

Craig: Not that I recall, but my God, that’s been 30 years ago. Yeah. Back when we, I dunno, 

Todd: perused the shelves of video stories. Right. I, this one always reached out at me ’cause it’s got a very scared looking woman.

It’s just a closeup of her face. There’s a gross hand over her mouth and the reflection of a knife in it. And it’s kind of hard to miss. 

Craig: Is it in black and white? 

Todd: Yeah. Yeah, 

Craig: I bet that’s why I didn’t ever look at it. Oh yeah, I bet. I thought it was a black and white movie and just passed it by. But I’m glad we did it too, because it’s a really interesting movie.

I think it’s gonna be very interesting to talk about. But Harris Yulin would all say, I will anytime I see him, I think, oh, that’s the judge from Ghostbusters too. And he’s really mean, and he like yells at them at the top of his voice and for whatever reason, and it’s not like I know him from a lot of things, but anytime I see him he just kind of exudes some kind of like authority, like Yeah, he looks, he looks like somebody who’s in charge.

Yeah, he does. And, and he looks like somebody you don’t wanna mess with. Uhhuh. And he is not even like a big guy or anything at all. No. He just has a really commanding presence. He also played the, uh, head of the Watcher’s Council on Buffy, and I vaguely remember him in that. But it’s interesting what you said about him, you know, being the guy that you re.

Because I feel like this whole movie is cast entirely of those people. Yeah. Virtually everybody in this movie, you’re gonna be like, wait a second, who’s that guy? Or who’s that gal? Pretty much all of them. 

Todd: It is cram packed full of stars. 

Craig: I don’t know that I would necessarily call them stars. That’s what I was getting at.

What you said about him was he never really kind of hit that big movie star thing. And I was just talking to Alan about this last night ’cause I was telling him about this movie. I said, you know, these are the people that you see especially, and things are different now. I think, but back then there was this pool of actors.

It was a large pool, I’m sure, but that you just saw in everything. They were all over tv. They were all over movies in small roles. And like these people, some of them, I had a feeling I knew what they were from, but I wanted to double check. So I would go to their IMDB page and they just have pages and pages and pages of credits.

Oh yeah. 

Craig: And I said to Alan, I’m like, I think that’s what I would want to do. Mm-hmm. I would want to just work all the time, make a comfortable living, live comfortably and work all the time in these smaller things. Because being famous 

Todd: sucks. 

Craig: Kind of sounds good on paper, but No, it, it sounds horrible to me.

Yeah. Like you have no privacy. Everything you do is scrutinized. Everything you’ve ever done in your past is scrutinized. Like it just. Sounds like a nightmare. Mm-hmm. But to just be able to work acting all the time. I mean, I guess you kind of do that to an extent. 

Todd: I guess I have the reverse thing. I think that a lot of people have seen me and are probably super annoyed by me.

Craig: Yeah. Probably I am. Every time you pop up,

like, oh, Jesus got that guy again. 

Todd: But I’m hidden on the other side of the world. I don’t have the chance to walk down the busy streets of a, of a big city and and see if anybody recognized. 

Craig: I bet people would recognize you. That’s hilarious. I bet people really would. ’cause you kind of a distinctive, stupid look about you that I think that, I don’t 

Todd: know.

I have more of a feeling that PE I would just be on that edge of people, be like, that guy looks familiar, but I have no idea where, you know, it’d be one of those people. Yeah. 

Craig: Yeah, you’re right. 

Todd: I’ve only had one guy, it was a guy who worked at Universal Studios here in Beijing and I was hanging out with a couple of his buddies at a little party that they had had, and he was a new guy who had just come in.

A young guy. He came right up to me and he was like, oh my. God. And that was a weird experience, you know, like he wanted to talk my ear off. He’s like, I, I’m sorry, I just can’t get over this. I feel like I’m meeting like someone famous. And I was like, alright, I get it. I guess I get it. But like. Wow. It was a weird feeling for me.

And I would hate to have to live with that day in and day out. I, I would, yeah, it would, you’d get a charge out of it for a while. Right. Then it would become annoying and then Right. It would be scary. 

Craig: Right. But these folks, you know, just get to work all the time and do cool stuff and meet other cool people.

I, that sounds very appealing. 

Todd: Collect residuals. I mean, the more movies you’re in. Right, 

Craig: right. When residuals existed, I don’t think they exist anymore, but I mean, not for people who are making stuff now. ’cause everything streams. 

Todd: Yeah. The streaming thing’s a problem. 

Craig: Anyway. So Bad Dreams is directed by Andrew Fleming, who, I don’t know that name.

Kind of sounded familiar to me. And it wasn’t until I got mostly through the movie and I had already looked up all the actors and seen what they were in. I was like, I should check out and see. Oh. And in the trivia I had read that this was his first feature film directing. Right. So, uh, I looked him up and I saw that he directed one of my favorite movies, the Craft.

Which again, like we’re like 10 years into this podcast and I can’t believe we haven’t done that. It’s, it’s one of my favorite. Movies. 

Todd: It’s weird. We haven’t done that yet. 

Craig: He did a couple other movies. He did a movie called Threesome. I don’t remember when that movie came out. I want to say like, when I was in high school, ’cause that was very sexy for me.

And then he did a funny movie called Dick about Richard Nixon. And more recently people might know him from Emily in Paris, which I’ve never watched, but I hear is awful and also wildly popular. So yeah, 

Todd: I’ve heard the same thing. I, I just, I don’t need another series to keep up on and that didn’t really seem like my cup of tea anyway, so I’ve, I’ve been avoiding it.

Craig: But I love the craft and I, it’s not like I see the craft in this movie, but I see kind of inklings of his style and I like it. This movie is, is odd. It, it’s, it’s strange to me that I’ve never seen it because it, it seems very well made, it seems among the movies of its kind and of its time. It looks good.

Oh yeah. The acting is good. Tons of people that you’ve seen before. Personally, I think the story kind of falls apart a little bit at the end, but whatever I can get over that, I, I’m surprised that I haven’t heard. 

Todd: More about it. It’s weird that this one sort of fell off the radar and it did pretty quickly because this was a movie that was on the shelves that I passed by all the time, looked like it’d be pretty scary.

And eventually I rented, I don’t know, maybe 10, 15 years after I’d been passing by it. I think I was either in college or maybe in late high school when I finally watched this film. And when I did, I was like, oh. This movie’s good. Why is, does it only exist on the video store shelves? You know, and it’s got so many people in it.

It’s produced by Gale Lan Herd, James Cameron’s longtime producer. And, and she had done just, just come off of aliens and uh, I think aliens just before this, and the co-writer of the screenplay is Steven Dea. And he’s like a freaking god of screenwriters. He’s like, box Office gold. This guy, he wrote 48 Hours and a Commando, the Running Man Die Hard, diehard two, all of these big, big, big movies.

So like, there’s so many great names behind this. And it’s not a bad movie to kick off your career with as a director at all? No. In some ways it starts to feel a bit like one of those cable pot boilers, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like the movies you would see on cable TV that were more thrillers than anything else.

But it’s not because it’s got. Very definite horror vibe because so much of it feels like it’s ripping off of Nightmare on Elm Street at times. 

Craig: It does. You know, I, I read that like I was, I was watching it and I was like reading stuff about it at the same time, and I read something that like, it was often criticized as being a rip off of Nightmare on Elm Street, and it hadn’t really crossed my mind, but the second I read it, I was like.

Oh yeah. It really is. 

Todd: No, at first I was getting final destination vibes. I was like, okay, this is a woman who was supposed to die who didn’t, and now it’s gonna be about death, or in this case, this character coming to, to get her, but then be, as the character was killing off all the people around most of the movie, if not all of it, takes place in a mental institution.

And I always love me a horror movie that kicks off with a beautiful, confused young woman in a mental institution. It’s, it’s almost a trope, but it’s a very nightmare in Elm Street trope. 

Craig: It is. And, and there are so many other parallels to, I don’t want to get too into them before we introduce like, what’s happening.

Sure. Like it, it starts out with this man, just like. Looking out over a desert sunset, we find out that this guy’s name is Harris, played by Richard Lynch, who I don’t really know a whole lot about. He’s one of the people that I didn’t know much about, but he obviously leads this cult. And it’s a bunch of, I would say, 20 to mid, I don’t know, 

Todd: 20-year-old hippie people to 

Craig: hippie.

But it looked like there was some range, like twenties, thirties, maybe even early forties. I don’t know. But it’s led by this guy Harris, and it looks like he’s baptizing people. Yeah, he’s ladling liquid out of something and and pouring it over their heads. And this is, uh, I guess Cynthia, our main character, her initiation now Cynthia’s played by Jennifer Rubin, but not in this scene.

This is a younger actress playing the character, but again, Jennifer Rubin, who I remember well from Nightmare in Elm Street. Three. Yeah, the Dream Warriors, the Badass Chick, which. Also takes place in a mental institution. Right. 

Todd: And didn’t come out too many years before this. What was that, 86, I think. Yeah.

Craig: I don’t know. But anyway, it was evident to me like I didn’t know this, I hadn’t read it or anything, but I knew, I’m like, that’s not water. He’s like pouring gasoline on their head and they’re gonna, you 

Todd: did. You knew that? Oh yeah. 

Craig: Absolutely. A hundred percent. No question. What? I don’t know why, but I just did.

Then you don’t see what happens inside, but it cuts to the outside of the house and the house explodes, like zillion sticks of dynamite went off inside of it. 

Todd: Not before a baby cries. That was like, 

Craig: yeah, you hear a baby. That was a 

Todd: little gruesome, extra bit that didn’t need to be in there, but, okay. Wow. 

Craig: I, yeah, I mean, it is gruesome, but I also feel like that was, yeah, it like it’s a cult like these.

People don’t think that what they’re doing is bad or harmful. Right. You know what I’m saying? Like they’re they’re totally in it. Yeah. As is Cynthia apparently. But the news says that like 24 people died and, and Harris, the leader is dead, or whatever. I have next in my notes to mention the classic rock soundtrack because Yes, it’s great.

Th this particular song that they play right now, I, I’ve never heard before, but I presume the title is something like, I Had Too Much To Dream Last Night, which is a little on the nose for a movie called Bad Dreams, but it was a really good song. Is it the Rolling Stones song? It, it, I couldn’t remember and I didn’t look it up.

I should have looked it up. But Time, the, the song that repeats over and over and over again. 

Todd: There is one. Yeah. That keeps coming in a lot. 

Craig: Well, it becomes a major motif because 

Todd: time has come today. If that’s the one I, I think it, I’m looking it up right now. It’s the Chamber Brothers 

Craig: in the song. It just repeats.

Time. Time and it, it keeps doing that throughout the movie as she jumps back and forth. And it’s not a time travel movie, it’s like flashbacks or whatever, but it uses that time motif over and over again. But anyway, great. Classic rock soundtrack. I don’t remember. I got that Harris and the Cult. So this must be while she’s in a coma, she’s thinking, I don’t know.

They’re talking about how life and death are just different states and that they will all be one spirit and lots of other culty stuff. 

Clip: Scared of Harris. You can’t escape. Harris loves you, brother. If I kill you, it’s because I love you. Come to me, Cynthia. Now, now, now, now, now, now you know. I’ll find you.

Craig: And then it cuts to 13 years later. So big culty backstory to set up this girl waking up from a coma 13 years later. 

Todd: Yeah, from the mid seventies to the late eighties. I guess it’s a combination. I think of her flashbacks while she’s in a coma with some news reports. You know, this was a big story obviously, uh, when it, when it happened.

Yeah. But when she wakes up, the first thing we see is good old Harris Yulan, who’s, uh, her psychiatrist, whose name is Dr. Barford. Mm-hmm. And he’s standing over her, uh, they have a press conference and the whole nine yards. ’cause it’s a big deal that she’s woken up. And one of the very first things that they tell her is that, or that that has mentioned anyway, is that they have been very unsuccessful in locating any family or friends, which is just something that I think they just had to get outta the way at the beginning to keep things uncomplicated for the plot.

Mm-hmm. It is just a girl. It’s a girl. And it makes sense. It’s not uncommon, I think, for these commune type things for people to just disavow their families and their past and go into this new life. As far as we know so far, what happened was some kind of accident. You know, we don’t really know a lot about why there was a fire or the explosion, but she did survive.

Clip: It’s a psychiatrist. Well a psychiatrist is, uh. Psyche from the Greek, it’s, uh, means mind and theary is to heal. So, uh, psychiatrist is a mind healer. Anyway, that’s the idea. You’ve been out of touch for so long that, uh, more than your muscle tone that it needs exercise. Anyway, I have a, an assistant named Dr.

Carmen and he has a group therapy session that meets every day. I’ve enrolled you in it starting tomorrow. 

Todd: I like the way this kicked off because she sits in this group and this guy immediately introduces himself as Dr. Carmen. It’s a super young guy. As he’s talking, he starts to come onto her and that’s when the real Dr.

Carmen comes in, who’s played by Bruce Abbott. 

Craig: Yeah, from re animator. Yeah. Uh, and re animator too. The first guy that you were talking about, Ralph, is Dean Cameron, who Yeah. Did a lot of stuff, but I always remember him from summer school with Mark Carmen. Uh, that movie was so funny. And he was really funny in it, and he’s funny in this movie.

Yeah. Um, he brings a little bit of light. To otherwise pretty dark movie. 

Todd: He’s not the only comedian in this film, but he’s, he’s one of a few. And I think that, from what I read, he had actually improvised quite a bit of what he did. Mm-hmm. And I think that probably added a little more levity than was probably originally in the script.

I loved his character and I thought his portrayal was fantastic. I’m not gonna complain about anybody’s acting in this movie, really. No. Everyone is is fantastic. But one thing I really did appreciate about this movie as we’re coming in and we’re being introduced to all these different people in this group, is how this might be one of those few horror films that I think gets the whole psychiatric group therapy hospital or whatever, more or less, right?

It’s not a place full of crazies that are just wandering around moaning. It doesn’t seem like a desolate place where nobody cares about anybody. This seems like a busy, bustling. Hospital. Yeah. With people who are very serious about their jobs and very professional, everything’s well lit. We don’t have much for like spooky, weird areas or anything like that, and I believe that every single one of these characters could exist in real life.

Although this is a group of borderline personality disorder people, which covers a wide gamut, as is explained to us by Dr. Carmen. 

Craig: Right, right. You know, I don’t know. I’ve never been in a mental institution, so I don’t know. How accurate it is. But it seems like a more real, it seems more realistic even in like this, like you said, the staff are friendly, you know, they’re, they’re helpful.

Usually the staff are portrayed as menacing or whatever. Yeah. Um, so I like that too. And the people who knows if whatever they’re portraying is any way realistic, but the acting is good. And there was one of the other people in the group, her name is Miriam, played by Susan Rutten or Raton, who was also in Ghostbusters too.

I don’t even think she’s credited. I looked at her IMDB page and I don’t even think it’s on her list. She’s only in one little tiny scene. It’s in the very beginning when Bill Murray is interviewing people on TV about their encounters with aliens, and she talks about how she. Was taken up on a spaceship, but it looked like the lobby of the Holiday Inn down the street.

And a man approached her and like it’s a hilarious, hilarious scene. And I like her in this movie a lot. And then all of them looked somewhat familiar. There was one older lady that I couldn’t place and I looked her up. I think it’s just because she looked like Blythe Danner and I couldn’t get that outta my head.

But the other one that was really familiar to me was Lana. Mm-hmm. Who’s played by EG Daley. I really like EG Daley. I like her most from PeeWee’s Big adventure. But she’s also very familiar from friends and many other things. She’s cute. She’s this little tiny blonde, squeaky person. She’s sweet and cute in this movie, and sadly not in it very much.

Todd: Well, more than anything, she’s kind of a rock star voice actor. She was, uh, Tommy Pickles and, um, right. Rug Rats and Buttercup from the Powderpuff Girls, and pretty much any movie or TV show that’s, that’s existed. 

Craig: I forget about that because I don’t watch a lot of animation. But that’s, I I did know that You’re right.

She is kind of a rock star 

Todd: if you listen to her voice. She has a bit of that yearly Smith quality to it. It’s a little higher and a little more girlish. 

Craig: Yeah, she, but a little bit of gravel in her voice too. She’s a singer as well. She, uh, strangely enough, she auditioned for the Voice. I thought that was so weird to see EG Daly audition.

I’m like, what are you doing? Like, you’re famous, but whatever. Anyway, so yeah, they have this group and Cynthia is telling them about her cult and. How great it was. Like that was another thing that was funny to me. Like pretty much through the whole movie, she is like, yeah, I would really just like to get out of here and find more people.

Like from Unity Fields. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Which is, she really never gets over that. 

Todd: It makes sense. I mean she, you know, when she died she thought she was, well, we’ll learn later, but like she was in it a hundred percent. Why? Why would that have changed while she was having her, her coma, I suppose? 

Craig: Well, some, yeah.

Somebody says all the stuff that she says about unity and togetherness and blah, blah, blah. They say it’s bullshit. And Lana, who apparently hasn’t spoken for three weeks, says it’s not bullshit. It’s beautiful. Then we cut to another scene where the doctors are watching this. Now what they are watching is an extreme closeup of Lana’s face.

Todd: Like, who shot that? Who shot 

Craig: this? There were no cameramen in that room. 

Todd: Not that I saw. 

Craig: That was wild. 

Todd: It’s hilarious. But yeah, it’s Abbott and Dr. Carmen and Dr. Barford sitting there chatting. Well, look, Dr. Carmen says to Cynthia when she says she wants to find a place like Unity. He says, there are no places like that anymore.

You know, this is like old stuff. And now you gotta, you gotta start learning how to live in the eighties. But she starts having these visions of her old guru. Yeah, Franklin Harris. And she gets in the elevator with Dr. Carmen. This elevator is kind of known to have problems. I guess it flickers, the lights flicker a lot.

Like, come on, would you really like. Fixed, you know? Oh, right, right. Yeah. 

Craig: The old glitchy elevator, again, you know, hard, you’re 

Todd: the weather that’s packed with people’s, there are more people. This elevator that I’ve been in in a long time. Yeah. It’s full of people. And of course it breaks down and everyone’s like, oh, come on.

They’re banging on the doors and stuff. That is one of my fears is being stuck in a fricking elevator. Oh, it’s horrible. 

Craig: I got stuck in an elevator once, but it was a, uh, freight elevator, so it was open. So like, oh. After we stayed up there, it was just me and my uncle. And like we waited for a while to see if somebody would find us and they didn’t.

And eventually he just climbed out. 

Todd: Right? Right. But she freaks out because as the lights are flickering on and off, she sees one person in there and thinks she sees Harris. And it flickers between Harris, who already has a fairly scarred face. This is the actor, you know, Richard Lynch actually had a, a bad incident where he accidentally set fire to himself while he was on drugs.

And so he actually had a pretty noticeable, his face is a bit scarred, but uh, between that and, uh, his corpse makeup where he’s reaching out at him, and it reminded me a little bit of a creep show too. He, he’s just gross, you know, bloody, and his skin is sloughing off and his eyes are bugging out and 

Craig: Well, and I, I feel like we go back to group for a second.

Gilda, who is another girl in group who’s only purpose. Through the whole movie really is just to say really cryptic shit. Yeah. Like pointed at Cynthia. Very specific cryptic shit, 

Todd: like she knows things somehow. Yeah. 

Craig: You’ll never get away from him. He’ll always find you. We get that. Then we get Cynthia’s flashback to the day of the explosion.

As I suspected he was dousing people with gasoline and he lights the fire. I found this scene really fascinating and really well directed. Yeah. If you. Are in a cult and you believe that doing this is going to bring you together, how would you respond? And I thought that it was just really interesting in the acting like they, the people and and the effects were fine.

I thought they were fantastic 

Todd: actually. 

Craig: Yeah. I mean, as good as they could. As good as they could have been. Like I can’t imagine it didn’t look when the people were being engulfed in flames and you could still kind of see their faces and reactions. I wouldn’t say that it looked real, but I don’t know how you could have made it look any better.

Todd: Right. ‘

Craig: cause you can’t really set people on fire, 

Todd: sadly. 

Craig: Maybe someday. But it, but it was fascinating. Like lovers were clinging to each other and that baby, I don’t think we ever see the baby, but we hear it crying and it’s, you can imagine sitting there based on everybody else that, you know, it’s a family holding to one another eventually, because I’m sure.

Burning is probably the most excruciating thing you can go through. They start screaming out in pain and and whatnot. Then Harris says to her, you failed me, Cynthia. You failed us all. You made us wait while you slept. But the waiting time is over, and she screams and wakes up and tells the doctors all about that day.

But then it becomes, this is again the parallels to nightmare on Elm Street. First of all, you’ve got one of the stars of. Part three in the movie, which also takes place in a mental hospital, which also revolves largely around small group therapy. Now you’ve got a burned figure, stalking. All of these characters and picking them off one by one 

Todd: and, and appearing to her in her dreams.

Craig: Well, yeah. Is it her dream? Like I feel like she is just seeing him all the time, like, yeah, she doesn’t have to be asleep. No, it, it’s, it’s actually kind of interesting that they call this bad dreams because it’s not really dreams at all. 

Todd: That’s a good point. 

Craig: He appears 

Todd: daydreams. I don’t know. Yeah, 

Craig: it, it seems, I mean, it, it seems very much like Freddy because nobody else can see him and he’s just kind of stalking behind people.

Like people will walk past her door and she’ll see this guy Harris, you know, following them. And that’s how she knows they’re next. They’re in trouble and they are. And, and that’s what the movie becomes, and I don’t wanna gloss over it because I think each of the kills are interesting and set up an interesting way.

So I don’t wanna gloss over it, but that’s what it becomes. It just becomes picking people off at this in, in gruesome ways. 

Todd: I mean, it’s kind of mean spirited of this free love guy when you think about it like the, these other people had nothing to do with it, but this is, 

Craig: yeah, 

Todd: Freddy, it’s like he’s getting his punishment on her by killing off the people around her.

Like why didn’t you just take her like he took everybody else and be done with it? Right. I don’t think that this cult leader was ever made to seem like a nice guy. Even when one of the interview footages that we get earlier on, he’s kind of said some menacing things to the interviewer. 

Clip: Life and death are simply different states of being you just cross into the next state.

I could kill you right now, couldn’t I? You could,

Todd: but I won’t. So of course there’s that aspect to it. Like I said, I found us to be a little final destination because she would. See him, you know, she would have these premonitions just before something bad was about to happen. And the fact that, you know, it’s picking off people around her on its way to her.

But anyway, yeah, that’s what it, that’s what it is. And she was expected to die, but she didn’t. And now she’s haunted by fate and to a certain extent, I guess, a bit of guilt in that in a way, she’s responsible for this. And I also thought it was interesting because at first, I mean, there’s a turning point, but at first, like you said, she was all in on the whole situation.

It was a sort of an accident that she survived. It’s not like she got cold feet at the end and tried to run out. The explosion blew her out of the room and into a slightly safer room, and they managed to pull her out. There’s a struggle where she kind of believes this guy, but she’s not quite. Willing to just say, okay, I’m gonna kill myself.

Take me, right? I mean, did did you feel this? I, I don’t 

Craig: know. Like it’s, it’s frankly a little bit confusing because it seemed like she was there very willingly. Even in that opening scene. Some guy says, she doesn’t have to do this, and I don’t know, like, it, it seems like that’s true. She, she’s, she’s there very willingly and, and then when she wakes up, she still wants to get back to it.

Why is she so frightened of him? 

Yeah, 

Craig: I don’t know. Maybe, maybe. ’cause he is supposed to be dead and he is appearing to her. I don’t know. Sure. The first one is, this is one of the only scenes that bothered me. Sweet. Sweet. Lana. EG Daley comes up to Cynthia and says something really sweet, like there’s a hole in her heart.

And, and what Cynthia says about togetherness gives her hope and then Cynthia’s kind of a bitch about it. Yeah. 

Todd: Why? 

Craig: Like this sweet girl comes and is like, oh, I really like you and what you said inspired me. And she’s like, 

Todd: almost literally says that, yeah, 

Craig: I can’t even 

Todd: help myself. Okay. 

Craig: Yeah. And so Lana walks away crying and then Cynthia has a flashback to what I assume is her baptism, which looks more like a traditional baptism 

Todd: in the river.

Craig: But, uh, in the flashback, she, Cynthia, the actress, playing Cynthia turns into. Lana, then Harris holds her under until she drowns, and then they immediately find Lana drowned in the pool. 

Yeah. 

Craig: So again, like that it, that is so nightmare on Elm Street. 

Very, 

Craig: the way that you die in the dream. Isn’t literal, but it can be literally explained in the real world.

It is. I mean the like, I don’t even know if I hadn’t read that. I don’t even know. I mean, I’m kind of dense anyway, but I don’t even know that I would’ve put two and two together. But when you really scrutinize it, it really, really draws heavily from a nightmare on 

Todd: El Street. Yeah, I thought it was pretty.

Bold. It was interesting here because he and her flashback says, I warned you, Cynthia, I warned you someone else would take your place. So this, 

Craig: did he like what? 

Todd: I don’t remember if he did. It was more of a threat. Like, if you don’t combat, things will happen. Or like, go kill yourself and then everything will be fine.

You know? I mean, it’s easy to not go along with that because you don’t know if you’re crazy or not. 

Craig: I didn’t even get that. That’s what he wanted her to do. Like I, I, I didn’t understand. I think so. I thought, well, I, I do think so ultimately, but I didn’t get that at this point. I just felt like he was tormenting her and I, I didn’t really know what he wanted from her.

The very next thing that ha I mean, Gilda says something like, you are defenseless against him. She just pops in to say these things every once in a while. 

Todd: I know. And she was the most ridiculous character. Just every now and then, pops in. Like she’s got this direct line to God. It’s a trope too, right? As always.

That crazy. Or quiet or mysterious person. Sadly, almost always a black person too, who pops in to say something very pointed and direct, like they have this spiritual connection and then she just grabs her by the shoulders, turns around and sits her down to the chair and walks out. I thought that was funny, but uh, yeah.

You’d think the movie would make more of that woman. Gilda, you know? 

Craig: Right. It’s never explained. 

Todd: If you, if you were Cynthia, wouldn’t you be like sitting her in a room going, what? Do you know? You know? Okay. Did you come to you two? Okay, so 

Craig: Todd, now in thinking about it, I had, I hadn’t thought about it ’cause I only watched the movie one time.

In thinking about it, when we find out what’s really going on, couldn’t we just explain this by saying Gilda is just very observant. Oh. Oh, you’re right. I think she just may be very observant. I think Gilda may know what’s going on before. 

Todd: Oh, I never thought of that before. 

Craig: Anyway, the next one is Miriam, who again, I really liked, like they’re picking them off in my favorite order apparently, when she was not in the crazy ward, she was a reporter, but for like, some kind of like, not National Inquirer, but, and she says, you’ve got this great story.

I really wanna tell your story. We need to get out of here. And she’s, I’ll get us both out. And so they’ve got this plan, they’re gonna escape together. Cynthia’s all in. Uh, well, I think this is the 

Todd: turning point I was talking about. ’cause I was waiting for this moment because up to this point Cynthia’s still kind of troubled by everything and I’m not really sure what she is planning to do.

That woman asks her, you have to ask yourself, do you wanna live or do you want to die? And she looks at her and smiles and says, I want to live. And then she gets very, very happy. And I thought, okay, this is supposed to be her, her turning point. But then as she’s, the woman is walking away and she stands out in the hallway and she looks after and she’s smiling, I wasn’t quite sure what was going on.

It almost felt creepy like it did. Does she have something in mind? What is going on here? I don’t know if we were just supposed to believe she got a new lease on life and that’s just, it just came across weird. Or if she had something else in her head when she was, oh 

Craig: God. Again, when you find out what really is happening, you could almost explain her being kind of out of it and loopy and, yeah.

Inconsistent. Ah. She’s being drugged. Yeah, they’re all being drugged. Yeah. I can’t, I can’t keep it in any longer. 

Todd: You, you’ve made a valiant effort, 

Craig: but we don’t know that yet. We don’t know that. I mean, we know that they’re being medicated and, and obviously they’re being medicated. They’re in a mental health ward, but they’re being drugged.

Todd: There’s a character whose sole purpose is just to pop in every now and then and hand them cups full of pills. So that, that’s set up for later. Well, she sees Harris in the elevator with Miriam, so she freaks out and runs and, and can’t get into the elevator ’cause it’s already going down. So she runs down the stairs and trips and falls.

And then she gets to like the sixth floor, I think this was on the eighth floor. She gets to the sixth floor. She sees just Miriam’s bag stuck in the door and as she turns around, you see a quick shot of Maryanne flying out the window and Holy shit. That was rough. I mean she, that was quite a stun. She did, and I mean, we don’t actually see the hit, but we almost might as well have seen the hit because the way it is cut is just, and then blood splatter at glass.

Oh my God. I thought that was effective. You know, come to think of it, of all of the most gross, disgusting ways of people dying that we’ve seen in graphic detail, in horror movies, it almost seems like a person hitting the ground after falling from a height is still something that they just don’t show for whatever reason.

Craig: I don’t know, maybe I made it up, but I felt like I remember this being pretty graphic, but I, 

Todd: it’s, but, but it wasn’t, it, you don’t literally, you see Right. You see her fly out the window, you see her fall toward the ground, and then just at the moment of impact, it cuts to a closeup of the pavement next to her and there’s this big ass blood spray, and then the camera, you know, kind of comes out of the window from above and looks straight down.

And that’s classic too, right? Yeah. At the body down below. But yeah, it’s way bloodier than a lot of movies go with that. 

Craig: This is random, but I would also say that this is one of the few movies where the blood really kind of looks like real blood. Yeah. Like usually it’s super bright red and this, it looks more realistic.

It’s pretty gross. There are some pretty, 

Todd: there’s a lot 

Craig: of it. Yeah. There is a lot of it. There’s one scene where there’s a ridiculous amount of it. But Okay. So then they’re back in group. They keep coming back to group, to group every time somebody dies. Yeah. And it’s so funny, every time the doctor is just like, well, these things happen.

Like Dr. Bear. Yeah. They, they’re getting, or no, I think it’s even the other one. Carson, Carmen. Yeah. He’s like, well, you know, they, she was suicidal, you know, she was brought in here because she tried to kill herself like three times, and Lana had problems. She was depressed, you know? Yeah. Like they, they keep justifying it and they keep doing it even after, like, there’s only a couple of them left.

And, well, I mean, these things happen. Oh gosh. But in group this time, Cynthia says he wants us all with him, whether we like it or not. Okay. Yeah. I mean, if you say so, eh, whatever. But then terribly burned, Harris appears to her and says, don’t make me take another friend. Keep your promise. Join us. Okay. So I suppose.

I should have figured out at that point she should kill herself, and then these bad things would stop happening. But yeah, she doesn’t, and this is when there’s an older couple, I haven’t mentioned them yet, but in the group, I couldn’t figure out if they were married and I couldn’t either. Both of them in the institution or she seemingly was married because there was a picture on her bedside table of her and a man, but I couldn’t tell if the man in the picture was also the man that she was fooling around with.

Todd: Right. It was hard to know. It 

Craig: doesn’t matter. They’re fooling around and because they’re trying to avoid bed checks, they go up to the attic. I, I don’t know. It looks like Freddy’s lair. 

Todd: Yeah, 

Craig: basically. 

Todd: It was so hilarious when they walked into this place and it was just Freddy’s boiler room. 

Craig: Right. It’s like, oh my God.

Todd: Oh. So on the nose 

Craig: they go through a fence to stand. Directly in front of an industrial turbine fan. And I am thinking, I, I wonder where this is going. I know, right? Gee, gee, I wonder. Oh, boy. And at this point, like, Cynthia’s walking around the hallways and even the score sounds like the nightmare in Elm Street score.

Yeah. It’s pretty bad. But they get chopped up in the turbine. 

Todd: Yeah. Like they’re missing. And like, she, she freaks out. She’s looking up in the vents, I guess, you know, uh, where the, the air circulation is down. Well, she hears them calling to her, like Cynthia join us and sees the face of Harris again up there in the vents, the burned out face.

And eventually blood and guts just start fall. Well, a guy who looked just like the dude from Alf Yeah. Goes to investigate. He wasn’t him, was he? But I don’t think so. But he looked like him. I don’t think so. Goes to, you know, fix things. He can’t get into the turbine room ’cause it’s locked from the inside.

So I guess he goes to the room below it and there’s a trap door. Now this was interesting, right? Like he goes to open the trap door and he can’t, the handle is stuck. So he gives up and he sits back and then the handle moves on its own. And I was like, wait a minute. So this really is supernatural. Now you explain that to me.

Now that we know what we know, 

Craig: I don’t remember that at all. You remember that? No, not a bet. It’s 

Todd: in your face. You must have been looking away from the screen. 

Craig: I, I guess so. All I remember is he like, opens a vent or something and finds like chopped up hands and feet and stuff. 

Todd: Yeah, blood and stuff comes falling down.

But at first he can’t open it. Like there’s a closeup of his hand on the thing and it’s like, lock, unlock and, and he’s struggling to open it. He can’t. And he’s like, well that’s weird. And he sits back. Then there is a closeup of it and it slowly turns. 

Craig: Yeah, 

Todd: I don’t remember that at all. And that is when he looks up and he is like, what?

And he, yeah. Opens it up and it’s, I don’t know why that that bit was in there. I don’t know how you can explain that if it turns out things aren’t supernatural. Right. But yeah, all this junk falls down on him like can and viscera and gross stuff. And I suppose because it was the turbine, whatever, it’s all very nebulous anyway.

Fence, right? I mean, I’m sure that thing led to the outside if it even existed at all, but somehow, right, there is blood now being sprayed on everybody because it’s coming through the bed of the ceiling on the whole floor, right? 

Craig: Like it’s ridiculous. I mean, movies do this all the time, but this is gratuitous like a human being doesn’t have that much blood in them.

Not even if you squeezed us out, like right. No, there’s just not gonna be enough blood to shoot out of like. Eight ceiling vents and just like 

Todd: raining, raining, 

Craig: raining, dowsing people covered in blood. I mean, it looks great. Oh yeah. Loved it. Yeah. And then funny Ralph, who has told us that he self harms, he just slams his hand down on a knife all the way through his hand.

Todd: Oh God. That was painful. 

Craig: Oh God. These special 

Todd: effects look really good. They do. I 

Craig: have no idea. I didn’t look to see what the budget was, but it feels like there was money behind this movie. Oh, yeah. And the effects and the soundtrack, 

Todd: oh God, we will get to that. 

Craig: And then he smashes a coffee pot over the guy who’s guarding him, I guess.

His head, and then he runs away and there’s a rock and roll cover of my way. I loved it. I loved the soundtrack. It was fantastic. 

Yeah. 

Craig: And he walks down the hall to Cynthia’s room and takes her down to the basement and starts freaking out. Yeah. Now, I’m not really sure why, but at some point when Dr.

Carmen realizes that they’re missing the floor nurse is like, oh, because of all the commotion that’s been going on, he didn’t get his meds. And he’s like, oh crap. If he doesn’t get his meds, he goes nuts. Okay. So he’s down in the basement, he’s freaking out, he’s throwing stuff around. He disables the elevator, and then he knocks over a shelf.

That spills out a box of scalpels. 

Yeah. 

Craig: I’m not a medical professional, but I would venture to guess that scalpels are not just packed unwrapped in large quantities in cardboard boxes 

Todd: on the shelves. On shelves in basement in this dirty, dusty basement. No, absolutely not. 

Craig: Alright, whatever. He grabs a couple, then Harris, the bad guy, starts talking through him again.

You can’t really. Explain this except for, uh, if it’s just the drugs, I guess. And then he kills himself by taking the scalpels and like stabbing himself in the lower abdomen and pulling them all the way up. 

Todd: Yeah. 

Craig: Oh boy. 

Todd: If it hadn’t already been established, this guy has no problem carving himself and, you know, he had scars all the way down his, his lower ab.

I mean, he was basically tracing the line of scars that he had there. That’s true. And plus he had said something about how whenever I feel bad, I cut a hole and then it all comes out and I feel better. 

Craig: Yeah. Yeah. But again, we find out soon that there’s a reason for that. Mm-hmm. This was a guy that was supposed to be on sedatives and he was actually getting amphetamines.

Yeah. So all of you know his symptoms are exacerbated. I mean, it doesn’t make. Real life sense. No, it 

Todd: doesn’t actually make sense, but, but in the, 

Craig: in, in the logic of the movie, it makes sense. So, okay, so then Cynthia says like, I guess she just resigns herself at this point. Bitch, you should have resigned yourself like four victims ago if you were just gonna, right.

So she’s like, uh. Yeah, I belong with him. Okay. Well they’re all dead now, except for the cryptic girl. She’s still alive for now. 

Yeah. 

Craig: And Dr. Carmen all of a sudden is very invested in Cynthia. 

Todd: Yeah. Like 

Craig: oddly invested in her. 

Todd: He’s really honor, I mean, to the point where there was one point where I thought, I was like, oh, what’s going on here?

There was one moment where he came into her room and he was like, on top of her, I, I knew that, you know, you needed Yeah. Company tonight. And I was like, what? You 

Craig: needed company. He’s, oh God, this is right. This is before crazy. Ralph comes and gets her and takes her down to the basement. But yeah, like he comes, like they’re gonna hang out and have a date.

Like he brings snacks and like he’s washing up in her restroom when Ralph comes and gets it, like, what is happening? Like, she is your patient. What is going on? He tells her he loves her later. Like this is, it’s very weird. 

Yeah. 

Craig: But he’s very invested in her in this at this point, and I don’t know what he’s so concerned about.

It seems like the police are escorting her away, like they’re gonna take her to jail, but they’re not. They’re just taking her to a different floor. But Dr. Carmen is freaking out and he’s like, I’ll release her into police custody so long as I can continue to be your doctor. And Dr. Barford is like, you’re fired.

Okay. 

Todd: This suddenly escalates in weird ways that, that we’re not projected because Burford and Carmen have an argument and Carmen says, 

Clip: the girl needs human contact connection. Isolation’s. The worst place in the world for the alternative is police custody. No. The alternative is a court order. There’s not a judge in the, you want this?

You want her on the edge. You’ve wanted it since the beginning. Alex, I know you’re fond of this girl, but you are out of line. I wanna see your theory played. Alex 

Todd: and I was like, theory, were we told about a theory that 

Craig: he had? Yeah, I had no idea. It just came 

Todd: outta left field and I’m like, whoa, where’s this coming from?

Anyway, I guess this is not the kind of psychiatric institution where you can come and go as you please, where you’re there of your own free will. ’cause it’s interesting, they’ve got these cops who are supposed to be guarding the rooms and keeping them in there, but they’re doing a really piss poor job of it.

This cop and this, I guess, orderly are walking her to her isolation booth or had whatever 

Craig: room basically, right? 

Todd: Yeah. But the scene kind of changes to where they are walking her up across the field to that house where that had burned down that she was in. Uh, by the way, I loved some of the transitions in this movie.

Were just me too. Really nice, me really skillful. This one was really cool. ’cause now we know, okay, now we’re in her head. Like she’s regressing back to that moment. This is where she is. And the transition too from the girl’s locker room into the baptism scene was just amazing. Just some really, really good filmmaking here.

Mm-hmm. So anyway, by, at this point, we’re like 20 minutes from the end and she is in her room having a conversation with Harris in the corner. Right. And the nurse is watching. 

Craig: Yes. And it looks like she’s talking to her. Self. Yeah. Which again, doesn’t make sense, but I suppose ultimately we’re to believe in that moment she is talking to herself.

I guess. 

Craig: I guess the other explanation could be that the person that she’s talking to is just out of frame. That’s possible. But I think at this point, if we are to apply what we know that they are being drugged. She is just hallucinating at this point. I don’t know. 

Todd: She is, what, what I didn’t understand is why the nurse said, who was looking at, I don’t know, eight or nine screens Yeah.

Of all these people in isolation doing all these weird things and all muttering and stuff, why she suddenly felt the need to go in and check on this girl who was also talking to herself. But she does, and she says, what’s going on? And then for some reason Gilda just suddenly walks into her room like, what?

Right. Why did Gilda get to drift into this isolation ward? And the nurse just turns around and rolls her eyes. Like, what? What kind 

Craig: of place did this become? Gilda says something like. Look to your heart, and then she leaves. And then this is interesting in light of knowing what is actually going on. Gilda is in her bed and there’s light shining in from the outside doorway and a shadow falls over her a a shadow of a person and she’s like, I knew you would come, but you won’t get me.

Todd: You’re too late. 

Craig: She drinks the formaldehyde that’s sitting on her bedside table in a bottle labeled formaldehyde to keep him from getting her. 

Todd: She says, I knew you’d come but you’re too late. I told her what to do. You won’t get her and you won’t get me again. I’m thinking, this is what’s guilt to tell her 

Craig: to do.

I don’t. I don’t, I don’t, 

Todd: I don’t care. I don’t know. It’s a lot real fast. Again, we’re thinking that this is really getting supernatural here. You know? At least I am. I’m thinking that this is the Harris figure, that she’s also hallucinating, that she’s known about this entire time. I don’t know. She’s like, I’m gonna kill myself before you kill me.

Craig: The next scene, I was like, what is happening? Dr. Carmen is all pissed off ’cause he is fired. So he goes outside and he throws all of his belongings that he packed up in a box. He throws them all over the parking lot and then he gets in his car and he sees Dr. Barford come out. Like he just intentionally.

Hits him with his car several times, like tries to hit him, misses, backs up, tries to hit him again, hits him, backs up, hits him again against the wall, like smashing him against the wall. 

Todd: It’s gruesome. 

Craig: It’s so gruesome, like blood is splattering all over the windshield. And I was like, what is happening?

Because this person has not been a crazy person that we’ve known up until this Wayland. 

Yes. 

Craig: And and then the car blows up with him in it and then he like wakes up behind the wheel and it was all a dream. Now I enjoyed that scene, but. What are you doing? Like 

Todd: now I know what, why at the moment I thought the movie had gone off the rails.

But you remember he pulls a pill out of his pocket and goes, well, I guess I’ll write a prescription for this later. And he takes it so he kind of drugs himself. Oh, ah-huh. And because he had that vision and he went a little nuts. He was like, what is going on with me? Oh, and that is what motivates him to go visit Mr.

Charles Fleischer. Yeah. The, uh, pharmacist, it took me some thought after the movie was over to put two and two together. There. 

Craig: Okay. That does totally make sense. And I do vaguely remember him taking that pill. That’s right. And, okay, so this, he goes and he pulls all the patient’s meds and he asks the Charles Fleischer, the pharmacist.

He’s like, what are these pills? And he’s like, holy shit. These are like crazy amphetamines. And this is like super, super concentrated THC. And this like, this will make people go nuts. So Carmen is like, oh, I know what’s going on. Barford is drugging them. And he runs away and it, it cracked me up that Fleischer takes the super, super concentrated THC and like sticks it in his pocket, right?

Todd: This, oh God, this scene was so funny, but it made no sense. Okay, so how is this working? He mentions, oh yeah, how does this work? He says, well, you know, I don’t fill the prescriptions. The doctor just comes in here and takes his stuff on his own and sets it all up in these cups. Really? 

Craig: Yeah. That’s not how that works at all.

The 

Todd: head psychiatrist at this hospital comes in every day and fills the prescriptions himself. That’s not how it works. And this guy has never once just glanced over at these pills that he knows by the back of his hand and goes, right. Wait a minute. These are all the opposite of what they should be.

Come on. Also, this nurse who passes them out, don’t make medical professionals look like idiots, right? They know What are these meds? There are checks and balances here. There’s no way that anybody could get away with this. And also it’s a ridiculous premise to be honest, that this doctor is giving them 

Craig: Well, and I don’t even really understand what he, he wanted them all to kill themselves.

I, I don’t, I don’t understand. I don’t 

Todd: get it either. To, to 

Craig: what end, what is he trying to prove? 

Todd: He’s trying to prove some paper he wrote. I mean, that he just kind of like, there’s a, there’s a bit of a line at the end on the big, uh, the big moment up on the roof. I mean, that’s, that’s what we’re coming to, right?

Carmen runs into Cynthia’s room. There’s no Harris. 

Craig: And, and what we are to believe at this point. Harris tells Cynthia to kill herself and leads her up to the roof, but what is revealed is that it’s never been Harris. It’s either been her hallucinations due to her memories or suggestions, or it’s been Dr.

Barford directly speaking to her. She has just envisioned Harris. 

Yeah, 

Craig: which is fine. I just, I don’t, I don’t know, like, it just seemed like kind of a lay ending. It’s kind of dumb. It’s, it’s, it’s fine, but whatever. So they all end up on the roof. And this is, this was so stupid. 

Todd: Oh God. This was dumb. 

Craig: They’re up on the roof and he’s like telling her to jump.

Carmen like shows up right before she jumps, but she does. And we’re to believe that she jumped and died, but she wakes up immediately outside of the cult house and starts walking towards it. But then it cuts back and we realized it was a fake out and Dr. Carmen had grabbed her by the hand. This makes absolutely no sense.

She is dangling off the roof. He is like kind of half on, half off and still she’s like, no, I wanna go. I’ll be with all of them. It’s Unity. She’s like, I don’t have anything here. And he’s like, you have me. I love you. What? What are you talking about? Oh my God. And this whole time I’m thinking, why doesn’t Barrister who is standing right there, just give Carmen a swift kick?

And they would both go off the side. 

Todd: Yeah. It wouldn’t take much. But what does he do instead? He pulls a syringe out of his. This guy who’s been so careful up to this point, 

Uhhuh 

Todd: again, could have just done that instead, pulls a syringe out of his pocket and starts stabbing this guy in the hand, his hand that’s holding onto the roof or whatever.

But then the cops swing up and they go, what’s going on here? And at first, uh, bears Bird tries to make it sound like it was karma who did all this, and he’s been drugging the patients and yada, yada, yada. But, uh, Carmen pulls her up and says, no, it was him. And the doctor Barford grabs one of the cops guns and it looks like he’s gonna shoot himself in the head.

Nope. Faked you out again and aims it at Carmen. But then Cynthia looks at him and sees Harris and she freaks out and she jumps after him and pushes him off the roof. And he falls and he dies. Yeah, very contrived. 

Craig: There’s one like last jump scare where. She kind of sees Harris like pull himself back up over the roof I think or something.

There’s one last jump scare, but then that’s it. It’s just them standing on the roof I think. 

Todd: Well, apparently there was a whole other ending bears for, doesn’t go for the cops gun. He’s not pushed. He jumps from the top of the building on his own to kill himself and then later. Carmine takes Cynthia to see the burned up house where they had their suicide.

For some reason, I guess she needs to go back and visit it to Clo fore closure. And she asks Alex to wait outside and then she goes into the house alone. And then she starts having visions of the cultus and you know her dead friends also from the asylum. And they ask her to join them by killing herself with a dagger that Harris presents to her.

And then he confirms that she is his biological daughter and that’s the reason why he wouldn’t leave her alone. Yeah. And then she seems to accept it and takes the dagger, but instead spins around and cuts and stabs him instead. And they all feel his pain and they all collapse. And this kind of ends her visions and she’s like, finally free.

But then there’s a jump scare as she and Carmen drive off back in the house. A skeleton hand reaches up and grabs the dagger. Yeah, that’s dumb. That would’ve been dumber. This, you know, tries to make it so there’s nothing supernatural about it at the end of the day for some weird dumbass reason that I still can’t wrap my mind around.

The psychiatrist was behind it all the time and wanted them to be pushed to the brink. I don’t know, you know, how do you even do this? Like, so say this plan went through and he publishes his paper or whatever. What do you list as proof? 

Craig: Well, and also congratulations. All your patients died like 

Todd: right under your care.

Craig: It is weird. And then it goes to the credits and the song over the credits is Sweet Child of Mine. 

Todd: I was blown away 

Craig: by Guns N Roses. I was too, I guess the, the song. Had not become a hit yet. 

Yeah. 

Craig: Maybe it hadn’t even been released as a single yet. That was 

it. 

Craig: I, I did read that initially when they did release it as a single, the music video was going to feature scenes from this movie, which was not at all uncommon in those days.

Youngsters, when these big songs would come out with movies, often there would be a tie in, in the music video to the movie. But I guess the Girl I, I, Axel Rose’s girlfriend objected ’cause it, the song was written about her and she didn’t want scenes from a horror movie in it. But yeah, it was kind of wild.

I mean, that’s a great, that’s a classic song. 

Todd: What a buzz kill. 

Craig: This movie is weird, mostly weird to me in that I’d never seen it before because it’s pretty good. Like, yeah, I wouldn’t, I, I wouldn’t say it’s, it’s great or amazing, but if you are a fan of these types of movies, like, I mean, even if you’re just a fan of like Nightmare and Elm Street, I think you’ll really like this.

I enjoyed it. I say the same things over and over again. I love eighties movies. And I always feel like I’ve seen all of them. And then when one comes along that I’ve never seen, and especially one like this where I actually enjoyed it and thought it was pretty good. I think had I seen this around the time that it came out when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, I would’ve really liked it then.

Yeah. I’m glad that we did it ’cause I, I doubt that I would’ve seen it otherwise. And if you haven’t seen it, I a hundred percent. Recommend. It’s fun. 

Todd: It is a fun movie and it’s really great to see all these actors in there, right? They’re really all really good actors, honestly. And the filmmaking is just great.

Yeah. Like you said, I mean, it is a little, I don’t know, could I say it’s a little same samey, I, I did liken it to any number of sort of cable TV thrillers. Yeah. And I think it is kind of like that, except it’s elevated a little bit by the, the talent behind it. Yeah, 

Craig: it’s well made. 

Todd: It’s goofy though. Like the plot is 

Craig: Oh, 

Todd: it is absolutely up to the end.

And I think you could have taken this movie a different direction. It would’ve been even more satisfying. I guess they just had to give a non-super natural reason for the whole thing. ’cause they were trying to make it. Usually that’s seen as more respectable sometimes. But yeah, aside from that, totally worth seeing.

It was 4 million that the movie was made for. It grossed more, more than double that. At the box office, it did a decent amount. The reviews were middling. It was cool seeing Harris Yulin in this as well. You know, he, he had a decent role in here. Yeah. It’s very rare sometimes that we get to do a tribute episode for a person who actually has a decent role in the film that we’re, that he did that was horror.

Well, I don’t know what else to say about the guy. It’s just one of those guys who had a nice run and a seems like a pretty good career. Very respectable. 

Craig: Lived a long life. Yeah. 

Todd: God. I mean, you know, did stage and film and everybody said he was just the, the opposite of the characters he tended to portray on screen.

Right. Just a real nice guy. And then got to live this, this nice sort of famous life without all the trappings of fame involved. I mean, what more can you ask for RIP Harris Yulin? Well, that’s it for this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. Please go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts from, and write a review of our show.

We would love for you to write an honest review as long as it’s positive, but seriously though, write a review. That’s something that really brings people our way. Obviously, your word of mouth does as well. And if you’re so interested to join our patrons, patreon.com/chainsaw podcast gets you a lot of other goodies.

We put out Mini sos, we get quite personal back there about what’s going on in our lives and go off on tangents. We have a book club where we’re reading horror books, and that’s been growing actually. That’s been a lot of fun. Drop us a few bucks if you’re, if you’re interested in that, we appreciate your support, whether or not you are, uh, giving us money every month.

You can also talk to us directly by going to our website, chainsaw hor.com and clicking the button speak to us. We love it when we hear your voices. All you have to do is click that link and you can record a 90 second message that we will play on air and respond to. Tell us what’s going on in your life. We’d love to hear from you guys.

Until next time, I’m Tom. And I’m Craig with Two Guys and a Chainsaw.

Let’s celebrate our milestone 450th episode by diving into Wes Craven’s 1989 cult classic, ‘Shocker.’ In this episode, we discuss the film’s notable scenes, its mix of horror and comedy, and Wes Craven’s unique touch on the genre.

We also delve into the background of the film, the cast, the challenges it faced, and why it didn’t become the franchise starter it was meant to be. Whether you’re a fan of Wes Craven, classic horror, or just looking for an in-depth and entertaining discussion, you won’t want to miss this episode of Two Guys in a Chainsaw!

Episode 450, 2 Guys and a Chainsaw Horror Movie Review Podcast

Todd: Hello, and welcome to the 450th episode of Two Guys and a Chainsaw. I’m Todd.

Craig: And I’m Craig.

Todd: 450 episodes. Man, can you believe it? Absolutely not. Like it just seems unfathomable. 

Craig: It’s crazy. 

Todd: I feel like, I feel like not long ago we were celebrating our 400th, so it feels like the last 50 have just flown by.

That in itself sounds hilarious to say. It seems like it. 

Craig: We were just talking about 365, like that was a big milestone for us. It seemed like that just happened. I, I can’t believe it. I remember when we first started this. I don’t remember how the conversation happened, but when we got to like the first 50 and I told my parents, my mom was like, are there 50 horror movies?

And I thought that was really funny at the time. But gosh, at some point I guess we never will run out. But I mean, you never will. 4, 4 50. Dang. It’s a lot. It’s a lot of movies. I bet I couldn’t list 

Todd: 50 of ’em. Right? Oh God. Well it feels really good. And as we did when we started out, Wes Craven had recently died.

So our very first episode was people Under the Stairs. We decided for our 50th and then for our hundredth and most of our milestones along that way, that we were like, why don’t we just go back to West Craven? And so we tend to save our West Craven movies for these milestones. Yeah. And it’s been a long time.

I think it has been. And you know, it’s funny that we still have a decent little pile of movies to do now we’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. Yeah, we’re far past the hills have eyes. And last house on the left was the last one we did. And God, it does not seem like 50 episodes ago. But uh, there you have it.

This one, uh, we had our choice between if a couple eighties ones and we settled on Shocker from 1989, which I had never seen before. Had you seen it? 

Craig: Yeah, I definitely had. I didn’t remember a whole lot about it. I vaguely remembered liking it. And I, I knew what the general premise was, but I hadn’t seen it in a long time.

And I’m glad that we picked this one because one of the other ones that we were thinking of was Chiller, which I have never seen. And because I’d never seen it, I just had time. I kind of popped it on and it didn’t look as much fun at all. I didn’t watch it for very long. It was made for tv and the quality’s pretty low, and I don’t know, it didn’t look great.

So I still haven’t seen it. If we get around to 500 or five 50, we’ll get to it eventually. I, I have a feeling if we, if we make it to 500 our next bet, we’ll probably be the serpent in the rainbow would be my guess. Oh, for sure. But, but no, I’m actually really glad that we went with this one because. I remembered liking it, and I did like it.

It was fun and I’m really kind of surprised that it didn’t do well, especially coming off the heels of a nightmare on Elm Street, which was so wildly popular. The only thing that I can think is that people just wanted more Freddie. They didn’t want Offbrand Freddie, they wanted specifically Freddie Krueger and I, I think maybe that’s why this one didn’t take off.

But it’s fun. It’s, it’s, it’s a lot like the Nightmare movies. Frankly, maybe too much. Really? 

Todd: I, I was just gonna say, it’s real ironic, you know, that you say that because that’s sort of what Wes Craven was trying to do with this movie. He was trying to create a Freddie competitor. He had been a little sad that the series kind of went on without him.

He was originally very uninterested in doing a sequel to the first movie. Yeah. But then after the second movie, got a little bit in, more involved with the third movie. It’s, it’s so weird. His career, it’s just been fits and starts. He started off real strong with certain movie, well, well, with the last house on the left doing really well.

And then the Hills have Eyes and the Sequel Hills have eyes and do so great. And he kind of found himself right back where he started, and then he did Nightmare on Elm Street after a while. And, and that was huge. And then went on to Deadly Friend and that kind of flopped. And then he couldn’t find himself getting any work anymore.

It, it’s just so weird. You know, he had these moments where he had these movies that were just really, really well received. And then in between just. Parts where he was kind of down in the doldrums and I think between the, his last big success in this movie, he was doing a lot of television just to pay the bills.

You know, he is directing episodes of TV shows and things like that and wasn’t enjoying it. He did not enjoy television. He was just scrapping, trying to get back into film and back into film. He thought Freddie has become this icon. It’s also been ki become kind of jokey. He wanted to create a Freddie competitor, somebody who is more gruesome and more serious than than Freddie.

And this was his. Attempt at that. It really wasn’t well received, but you could definitely see what he was going for because it very much has a lot of nightmare, Elm Street, Freddie ish stuff about it a lot. This villain is more brutal and just kind of like a crazy homicidal maniac who also, I guess is sort of a devil worshiper and whatnot.

And so you can see that he’s created a more intense villain here, but I’m afraid, for me, the movie’s just kind of a mess. It’s a fun mess. But I’ve read reviews where people are like, it feels like three different movies. And I totally agree. I mean, there’s a lot going on. There’s so much happening. 

Craig: He, like you said, he was setting this up to be a series of movies, so I kind of think in some ways he was throwing the kitchen’s.

Sink in and thinking, yeah, we can explain all of this lore later. Yeah, let’s just have fun and we’ll explain it later. And you know, Cisco and Ebert, I don’t, they were split on it. I don’t remember which one liked it and which one didn’t. Cisco liked it a bit, not, not a ton, 

Todd: but yeah, Ebert hated it. I didn’t read Ebert’s review on it.

Craig: Well, he said I didn’t read it. I read a summary of it, but he said there, there was too much. Unexplained, like his complaint was, we have no idea what the rules are. And I agree. Oh yeah. Like that is a hundred percent true. It’s the biggest problem. Anything can happen. Yeah. Like, pretty much. And, and there’s no consistency to that.

That didn’t bother me. I don’t know. And maybe it’s because I saw it when I was a kid and it really kind of is more about visuals and what’s happening. Not so much why, like, I don’t care. He’s a devil worshiper that can go into electricity and then also TV waves or something. Great. Whatever I like I am, I’m, 

Todd: I’m down.

But he also jumps between bodies. I mean, like, yeah, he can do that too. And how does he jump between the bodies? Like what are the rules for that? Like, I don’t care. It became, at first I thought I sorted it out that I hadn’t. And well, you know, I mean, do any of us really care? Probably not. But it, it bothered me watching it.

Not because I was trying to be critical of the movie, but just because my brain kind of gave up. When you know the rules, you’re trying to sort out how the villain’s going to what his next move is gonna be and how the hero’s going to thwart him, right? When there aren’t rules you, you’re just always in the dark as to what’s gonna happen, and so you can’t anticipate anything.

And so I just lost any anticipation and by the last 20 minutes of the movie, I just was like, ah, okay. It’s just gonna be a big chase scene. It, it has been for the, you know, the previous hour and I don’t really get it where he’s gonna be at any given time or how they’re gonna sort it out. It is just gonna be a big battle at the end and whatever.

We’ll just go with it. I just wasn’t that engaged. 

Craig: Yeah, the last half. The last half drags a little bit, which is too bad because I thought the first half was really well paced. Like Yeah, a lot happens. And you’re right, it is kind of all over the place. It’s not just with the nature of the villain, but like there are.

Ghosts and magic necklaces and it’s a little hokey. 

Todd: There are parts, I’m sorry, there were parts where it was a little hokey and, and so campy. I was kind of rolling my eyes. I was like, all right, I just have to remind myself, Freddy is campy too, and I love it. Yeah, totally. And I love a lot of campy movies, but God, this movie really leans into it by the end.

Craig: I also felt like it had Wes Craven all over it. Like, oh, for sure. I mean, there are so many parallels to a nightmare in Om Street, but then even like Ghostly girlfriend who, we’ll talk, we’ll explain all this stuff in a minute, but just generally speaking, like, yeah, ghostly girlfriend reminded me a lot of.

Christy Swanson from Deadly Fringe. Oh yeah. She looked a lot like her. Geez. Yeah. Even in the, like the design. Yeah. 

Todd: And like, what’s her name in Nightmare on Elm Street three? Yes. Yes. I know who 

Craig: you’re talking about. White dress. Yeah. I mean, even the, even the first victim in part one who’s blonde and wears a long white matronly nightgown, like apparently he’s into that.

I don’t know. 

Todd: It must be, 

Craig: no, the truth is he was probably trying to appease the sensors because like most of his movies, this movie had to be. According to Craven, drastically cut to get an R rating, which seems, yeah, we’ve talked about it a million times, but it, in today’s context, it just seems so stupid.

Like it’s really quaint today. Again, I don’t wanna get into it too much ’cause we’ve talked about it before, but just even today, the kind of, the idea of the MPAA just seems so dated. Yeah. If, if people wanna know about the content of a movie, they can easily find out. And if you’re really concerned about it, then you should.

We don’t need some puritanical board of governors telling us what we, what is appropriate and what isn’t appropriate for us or our children. Like, it’s just so stupid. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I mean, like I said, and you’ve got teenagers in peril, unbelieving parents, asshole parents, uhhuh or kids 

Todd: with, uh, bad 

Craig: backgrounds.

Right, right, right. You know, maybe, you know, unexplainable. Powers or, yeah, and that’s fine. Uh, like dreams. All of dreams. Yeah, definitely Lots of dreams. Definitely dreams, Uhhuh and that’s great. I like West Craven. I like a nightmare on Elm Street. This movie works for me, but I can totally understand why it wouldn’t for others.

I could see why others would call it out as blatantly ripping a lot of stuff off from a nightmare on Elm Street. Again, that doesn’t bother me, but you could certainly say that. I mean, even the introduction almost is exactly the same as, yeah. Nightmare on Elm Street, whereas in Nightmare Elm Street. It. It has to be.

There’s no getting around it, you know, in Nightmare. On Elm Street, it’s Freddy. It’s just shots of him, like from the knees down, walking around in his workshop, making his gloves like you never see his face. This is the exact same thing. It’s some guy in big boots walking around in some sort of workshop.

You’re only seeing, you’re not seeing his face, seeing him from the leg down, seeing his hands doing what he’s doing. But he’s working on electronics. Yeah. It’s shot the same way. It looks the same. It basically is the same Uhhuh. It’s something that nightmare on Elm Street. I mean, I love the score from a nightmare on Elm Street.

It’s iconic, but I did like that this movie is scored largely through rock music. 

Todd: Oh yeah. I loved the soundtrack of this movie. That was nuts. So when the credits are going, I’m like, oh, this got this great hair metal song. Like shocker or whatever. Yeah. And then I saw one of the producers with Shep Gordon, and I don’t know how familiar you are with Shep Gordon, but he is a legend, Alice Cooper, a lot of, a lot of bands coming up.

I didn’t realize until I started digging in that he also produced films. And also he is responsible for the celebrity chef thing. He’s the guy who had the idea like, we could make these chefs celebrities. And so like Wolfgang Pock and Muriel Lagasse and all those early guys, Shep Gordon’s the one who pushed them up into stardom.

And I mean it’s, it’s nuts. And then it makes sense because Desmond Child is doing the music supervision. One of the biggest songwriters in Rock in History wrote Tons of Alice Cooper’s stuff produced meatless third album wrote, living on a Prayer, you know? Oh, almost. Every iconic eighties hair metal song and, and far beyond hair metal.

This guy wrote, I mean, he’s making millions of dollars off of royalties and, and he’s just aerosmith’s most popular songs. You know, dude Looks like a lady. Things like that. Ugh, I hear you all come from this guy. So it’s nuts. And then William Goldstein did the score that isn’t rock music and he is also a very iconic film scorer film and television.

It’s nuts. So here you are with this star, studded cast, fricking Timothy Leary shows up in the credits of like, Timothy Leary’s gonna be in this. Like wow. So he’s got a lot of people behind him and he is got this, this strong, like you said, going back to the music, the strong metal score. And I think it was interesting how we just came off a couple episodes ago.

Talking about Friday the 13th, part seven Uhhuh, and it was part five, I believe Jason lives where they really just kind of po you know, we’re trying to make Jason big and relevant and kind of reinvent him and as the big un dead zombie and, and making an event like The Nightmare Elm Street movies were.

And that also came with, uh, a lot of heavy hitters from heavy metal, uh, backing up on the score and, and music that was playing on the radio. Alice Cooper did the theme song for that, the Man Behind the Mask. Funny. And so you can see where he’s almost there, it almost seems like he’s intentionally trying to create that, like it’s very commercial decisions being made here to rip off those elements at work for audiences and make this new series and it just.

It just didn’t come together 

Craig: Well, I like, I mean, I, I, I loved the music in the movie. It was a lot of fun. I think rock and roll and horror go beautifully hand in,

like, I was like, I was jamming. I’m like, this is, and I, I just kind of thought that it was a preexisting song and then it, the lyrics are talking about shocker and stuff. It’s like, oh, right. I loved it. I thought it was great. 

Todd: Actually, maybe all of the metal tunes on here are either written for this movie or were produced for this movie.

Like there’s a cover of Alice Cooper’s No more Mr. Nice guy here. Yeah. By Mega Death, it’s not Alice Cooper. It’s, and so, yeah, I never heard that cover before and I think it was created just for this movie. So yeah, it’s really good on the, on the music front. I mean, they were trying really hard. 

Craig: Well, and I think that they were kind of trying, he was trying to establish kind of the gr, I don’t wanna get too deep or anything, but Freddy Kruger, I, I feel like he was trying to establish as.

More of a nuanced evil, so that, that very spooky, simple. I can’t do it. Yeah. But you know, the, the very simple thing, it worked really well for him. This is a different kind of villain. This is just like kind of a brutal, like a brutal right. Violent, evil guy. And I, I think that the music, not that I think rock and roll is evil in any way, but it, it just seems more suited 

Todd: to him and to the movie.

Yeah. I think of it like, especially at this time, you know, this is like mainstream evil, you know? I mean, it feels exciting and, and whatever, but by this point, all this, what they called heavy metal at that time, pretty mainstream. 

Craig: Yeah. Well, and I was surprised to hear you say that. A lot of it, or most of it were original songs because they feel familiar.

Yeah. They sound like you turn on, you know, the classic rock station and these are the songs that you would hear. They, they’re good. Mm-hmm. Anyway. All right, so he, okay, so here’s, he’s the scary guy and he has a limp. A pronounced limp, and that’s very important. He drags one leg all the time. Alright. And that’s important.

Don’t forget about that. 

Todd: Did you hear about that limp? How that No. This actor, I saw an interview with him and he said he had worked out this limp. He was super, super proud of this limp. And he goes to show it to West Craven and Craven’s like, oh man, I’m sorry, but the limps already been established by that little girl.

Oh, they already shot the little girl scene. And you know, her limp was just, just basically just like dragging her left leg behind her. Oh my God. That is hilarious. He was like, okay, it is fine. But it just kind of took a bit of the wind out of my sails and I had to work with that. 

Craig: Well, that would be really hard to work with because it really limits his mobility.

I and, and it, yeah, it has to be. I mean, there’s no way of getting around it being somewhat inconsistent like it is because, because sometimes he has to move, you know, like that. That leg clearly works when it needs 

Todd: to. Yeah, it really does. What Wesley, when they’re having a fight all over somebody’s living room, is that what you’re thinking?

Yeah. Right. Yes. And he’s like 

Craig: throwing people around and stuff. I was gonna wait until we got to it, but there is body jumping. His soul or essence or whatever it is, jumps into other people. My big question was. Why would those people limp? I know they don’t have a leg injury like you would think he would jump in a new body and be like, woo-hoo 

Todd: new legs.

I know. I, in fact, I didn’t really notice his limp until the girl, and then when I saw the girl limping, I was like, why is she do, wait a minute. Does he have a limp? Are they giving everybody jumps into a limp? That’s absurd. It is 

Craig: absurd. And, and I, I ask the question why I know the answer. It’s to very clearly signal to the audience that it’s him in there.

Right. But I, it wasn’t necessary. Like in fact, Craven does great shots and the actors do a great job every time. He’ll do a tight closeup on their face and they will give a look or a menacing grin. That right very clearly conveys that it’s him in there now. So the li thing really wasn’t necessary, but.

Okay, whatever. Anyway, so then, and, and we find out, I think through, like we hear on the news or that there’s the serial killer out there and he kills, you know, entire families. Oh yeah. Was there an opening murder scene? I don’t remember. 

Todd: Did he kill a family? I don’t remember. Well, no, it’s mostly a bunch of news footage montage, well, not even necessarily news footage of this happening, but of just horrible things happening on tv.

Like if you’re flipping through the 10 o’clock news or whatever, this is just, you’d create your own montage of horrible things going on. And it’s, the voiceover is talking about the murders. In one hand. It’s very typical horror movie stuff, right? You always hear over the radio or whatever, like it kind of sets up what’s, what’s happening, what you’re coming into in the middle of.

In the other hand, there is a lot of this. During the movie, the news narrates a lot. Of what we don’t see immediately on screen or helpfully and maybe a little too much recaps. What we just saw as newscast, John Tesh from Entertainment Tonight is like one of the anchors who shows up quite frequently in this movie.

Yeah, that 

Craig: was 

Todd: funny. And I, and I have to imagine that this again is Wes Craven and I think he pretty much said as much, he’s trying to make a statement here. He’s talking about TV and what he sees as the bad things. It kind of does to us. It’s, it’s a little over the top and hits you hard on the head. But yeah, he establishes that really early on with all this news footage.

Craig: Yeah. And it’s showing pictures of his, the killers victims and stuff. And apparently one of them is Heather Langham. I missed that. I to, I was watching for it. I totally missed it. So then we’re introduced to our hero, Jonathan played by Peterburg, who I recognized, but then I looked at his IMDB page and I didn’t really recognize anything that he was in.

Maybe he was just. I don’t know. Lots of guys looked like him at 

Todd: that time. I don’t know. I’d say so. Yeah. He’s more of a director now, like a very successful director. Dylan, he looks like one of the Dylan brothers, like Matt Dillon. Oh yeah. Kind of a little bit, right? A little bit. At least he has that football player look to him, doesn’t he?

Craig: Yeah. Well, and they establish, I mean, it it, it’s a kind of a weird balance here in the beginning. Like he, he’s at football practice and he’s kind of making jokes and like he runs into the goalpost in like a very, like Looney Tunes fashion and it’s, oh God, and, and, and then he like trips and falls over the Gatorade table.

It’s like Saturday Night Live for. 30 seconds. Yeah. Kind of some Chevy Chase stuff going on. And then his beautiful blonde girlfriend Allison talks to him. And then there are just weird parts that like they’re walking down his childhood street, but were there like ghost children like running around. Yeah.

I still don’t know what was going on with that. 

Todd: It’s like night and they’re walking down the street and there’s kids running across the street behind them, but they kind of disappear. And he’s talking to her. He says, I was raised on the street, I used to live here. And he walks toward the house and I’m thinking, what’s going on?

Why is this a, an amazing thing? And then he turns around and Allison is disappeared very dramatically. Like there leaves blowing around where she used to be, you know? That’s right. And, and he enters the house and he sees someone on the ground who’s cut up. At first I thought it was Allison. 

Craig: Yeah. But before he went in, he saw that parked outside of his childhood home was this great big service van with the name of the guy in huge, bold letters on it.

So like. He’s seen all this. You’re right. When he, when he goes in, he sees somebody, I think it’s his brother, like his kid brother, a kid all bloody and gross on the floor. And then I think he hears screaming and he goes upstairs and his mother and little sister are being attacked by this big bald guy.

And the bald, the, the killer like sees him and. Talks to him, right? Yeah. Threatens him too. You get away from 

Clip: her. Whatcha doing here to dip shit? Huh? You wanna watch 

Craig: Jonathan do something? 

Clip: Bitch? 

Craig: You wanna watch, 

Todd: watch this. 

Craig: Get him outta his hands. 

Todd: Yeah, it’s brutal. And then he jumps awake. Oh, the, the killer leaps onto him and that’s when he jumps awake.

And then it’s, it’s, it turns out it’s like a dream. But his girlfriend is there and she’s like, are you okay? You, you seem different. And he’s like, something is different. And his dad calls, I think at this time, there’s a whole bunch of great transitions here, but it really throws you off and I think, again, very intentionally.

So West Craven is just like trying to make it so that we’re never quite comfortable with what’s really happening or what’s going on here. And I was so happy to see his dad. His dad, um, was played by. He’s one of these guys who I’ve, you see in so many things, but I know you don’t know his name right.

Michael Murphy. He was a favorite of Robert Altman. He and Robert Altman were like bosom buddies and from early on in college and he was in all of his movies and he plays one of the villains in one of my all time favorite movies, cloak and Dagger. I will always remember him as Mr. Rice from Cloak and Dagger Man, what if this is the third or fourth time this year?

I’ve been able to bring up Cloak and Dagger on our podcast 

Craig: and only like the 50 or 60th time. 

Todd: Throughout. Yeah, probably all roads lead to cloak and dagger in my mind. We just need to do it. I just, I don’t know what it is about this guy. Maybe just because I have such a check connection with him from childhood, but I could watch him on screen all day long.

He’s just got a, a normal kind of nice face. He just disappears into these roles. ’cause he’s always just playing this guy. 

Craig: Yes, he’s just that guy. Like I feel like in my mind I can picture him in a million things and sometimes he’s. A nice guy and sometimes he’s not a nice guy, but mm-hmm. I, I, like, I always picture him in like a trench coat.

Yeah, exactly. For, for, for some reason, you know, like the, you know, the tan Yep. Very simple, plain trench coat. Like, he’s just always that, like I can vividly mm-hmm. Picture him in my mind in several different things, but I have no idea what those things are. 

Todd: You’re a hundred percent right. And I just love, I love the guy and he’s apparently a very lovely dude too, and he loves the fact that he is kind of unrecognizable.

He’s been in so many things, but he’s not one of these guys who walks down the street and people are instantly like, oh wait, I know you. He says, I just kind of have an ordinary face. And that’s been really fun. Anyway, as 

Craig: it turns out, this dream was not only a dream, it was. Either a premonition or he was somehow dreaming it as it was happening because it has happened.

Yeah. He meets, I don’t know. I think he meets his dad at the crime scene. His dad is a cop, like a lieutenant. His dad has been investigating this. Murderer. So I, I don’t know if this is revenge or just with the guy, you know, who’s investigating him or whatever, but we also find out through dialogue, and it didn’t seem clunky to me at the time, in my notes, it seems clunky.

It seems clunky for me to drop this here. That yes, this is his family that he grew up with, but John was actually adopted at age seven after being found terribly beaten and alone. Which seems like kind of an odd detail, I guess, but whatever it does, I, I, I, I, I think, I mean, I think that they also say that those other kids, at least the other boy that was living with that family we’re foster kids too.

So, you know, yeah. There are foster families, whatever. Yeah. Spoiler alert it comes up later. But anyway, then we meet like his. Football team and his football coach, and they are a really tight team. Yeah, they sure are. Throughout the rest of the movie. Pretty much any time Jonathan is around the team and the coach.

Are there to support him. 

Todd: I know 

Craig: for 

Todd: whatever reason, Jonathan lives and breathes football. Even when, even when he’s just thinking about stuff, he is sitting at the track on the football field. I mean it’s, it’s kind of funny. There’s nothing else of his school life, one of his football 

Craig: friends. Pacman is played by Ted Raey and any more.

It’s only because of this podcast, but we’ve seen Ted Ramey pop up in so many movies at this point. Like anymore. It’s like, where’s Waldo? Like I see him, ah, Ted Raey. 

Todd: It was just like a flash of him at the funeral and I was like, wait a sec. I mean, it was literally a second as the camera pans by and I was like, wait a minute, is that Ted Rab and I out?

And then there’s another funeral and again, boom, he’s there. And I was like, what? The whole team is there? Like an extra in the back. Then I realized, I mean, he’s, he becomes more prominent later, but yeah, he’s part of the, he’s like a medic, right? Or something. 

Craig: Well, he worked, maybe he’s the assistant coach or something.

Maybe he’s the team manager or something. I don’t know. Anyway, but, so anyway, Jonathan tells his dad about the dream and you know, I saw this happen, whatever. And he says, I know who the guy is. Of course his dad doesn’t really believe him, but I guess he humors him or whatever. And so he takes his dad and the other cops to where the killer, whose name is Horace Pinker, played by Mitch Pegge, who looks like somebody I should like, I don’t know.

He looks like Mr. Clean, he looks like mean, Mr. Clean. He’s got a bit of a Vincent Dno kind of vibe to him. Little bit. A little bit. Yeah. I don’t think I really know him from anything, but he plays a good, big, scary guy. And the thing that makes him, I mean, he’s big and, and muscular and, and clean, bald head.

So just physically he’s intimidating. But he’s also, like we’ve said before, like just like. I don’t know. Nasty. And like he relishes in his Yeah. Violence and he relishes in terrorizing people and he relishes in taunting Jonathan and other people. He’s scary in in that way too. He’s 

Todd: really over the top.

Yeah, 

Craig: he is over the top. But that’s fine. 

Todd: Yeah. I’m not, I’m not saying that in a critical way. I’m just saying like that’s, this is the kind of villain that we have. He just looks like nuts. He’s nuts over the top. Crazy, unpredictable, got nothing else going for him, you know? Right, right. You don’t even know motive, like 

Craig: who knows why.

No, we have no idea. Again, maybe we were meant to find out later. Maybe not. I personally don’t care. Whatever. If I were to find out later, fun, but who cares? So anyway, the cops go in and there’s like, it’s all set up. He’s got tons of TVs now. This is 1980, whatever. So these are like lo-fi Yeah, box TVs, like hanging from chains and on shelves, like all over.

And they’re all showing these terrible images of like the K, K, K and like atomic bombs going off and bad stuff. I feel like there’s also suggestions of maybe like ritualistic stuff around a little bit. Most of that is implied. 

Todd: And then later he uses it. I have to feel that there was like maybe a scene or two cut or a shot or two cut.

Because the best we get is he’s got a little secret room. He pulls one of the cops in, he is there and he pulls one of the cops into his secret room, which the dad and son discover. But he ends up slipping out the back. Dad and son go into that secret room and look around and you just get a shot. I think there’s like a foreground shot of like a dead cat hanging.

Craig: Yes, 

Todd: that’s right. That’s about it. 

Craig: Yeah. And so he gets away, he kills a bunch of cops. Oh yeah. He kills a bunch of pe. A lot of people in this movie violently. And that stuff is good. I mean, we haven’t mentioned the fact that this movie was shot on a relatively low budget, and when it comes to the later effects, you can kind of tell, but I would’ve been willing to just attribute that to.

The time. Right. We just didn’t really have the technology. You said earlier you could really tell what he was going for and I agree. And later, I don’t know how much later, he didn’t live all that much longer, but Wes Craven said that he would like to go back and remake Shocker because he felt like he could really do more with the effects of the day that he had intended, the effects looked dated, but they, I don’t think they look terrible.

Todd: I don’t think the effects are what’s wrong with this movie. Honestly. I would hope that if he goes back and revisited it, if he had been able to do that or somebody does, they’ll, they’ll work the story a little bit. Sure, yeah. It could definitely 

Craig: be cleaned up. But anyway. Okay. So he gets away after killing a bunch of people.

So Jonathan goes back to his dorm room? Not dorm room. I think they’re in co. Maybe it’s dorm room. I don’t know, but I think they’re in college. Maybe he’s in college. I, I feel like he’s got a house or something. Maybe it’s an apartment. Right? He’s with his girlfriend. It’s a nice little, yeah, with his girlfriend Alice or something.

I don’t know I ever as Al ’cause I was taking notes, I was trying to be quick in the very first scene when we meet her. He’s pretending to have a concussion. And he’s like, who are you? And she’s like, I’m your girlfriend and I’m the one girl that you want to have babies with. And he’s like, do we have any babies?

And she says, no, we haven’t even slept together yet. And then it’s established that they live together and she takes baths in front of him. So I dunno. Yeah, I didn’t get that. That was weird. I didn’t get that at all. Maybe it was, maybe it was playful banter that I took to literally, I don’t know, whatever.

Anyway, he comes home and makes a point of relaxing in his electric. Bark a lounger that’s like a massage chair for a few minutes just to the matic, just to establish that it’s there. And he sits in it sometimes he does it several times. Yeah, he does it several times. Like, like the girlfriend gets killed and he goes to the funeral.

Then he has to come home and sit in his matic for a while. 

Todd: I, by the third time I was like, this better be going somewhere. I’ll be very angry. 

Craig: Well, and you knew it was because the movie’s called Shocker and they make a point that it’s like this chair is sitting and a kind of logical place that it would sit in a room, but they make it very clear that, that you see the cord like snaked around and very prominently plugged into the wall.

It’s like, oh gosh, that went right by me. And so much of this is kind of set up, but it’s kind of important, like he gives the girlfriend a movie trope. A cheap Walmart heart necklace for, oh God, her birthday that she just absolutely loves. 

Todd: I’m sorry, dude. I was rolling my eyes at this. 

Craig: Well, it, 

Todd: it turns magic right here.

I thought. Really? Come on Wes. Come on Wes. How many movies have we seen where this girl gets this hard shaped charm necklace? That’s gonna mean something later. Yeah. God, it’s silly. 

Craig: All right. We find out that through the news again, that the killer is still around and he’s slaughtered a whole other family.

And then 

Todd: black magic animal sacrifice, hundreds of mummified cats were found in his place. That’s right. It becomes clear. Yeah. Through the news report. John Tesh tells us all that, but 

Craig: then immediately, like he comes back, like he leaves her in the morning, he comes back in the afternoon and she’s dead. She was killed in the bathroom apparently.

And within her body was enough blood to paint the walls of the bathroom. Yeah. I’ve never seen so much blood. It was insane. That must have, and and it’s not just blood. It’s like her, it’s like fingerprint streaks, like all down, like all the walls. Like she was 

Todd: climbing the ceiling away from this guy. It’s like it was a mess.

It’s crazy. I saw an interview with this actress too, and she said that one of the odd, you know, they have these discussions on set. She’s like, you wouldn’t think this is an important detail, but when you have to decide what you’re gonna do when you’re shooting a scene, it becomes an important detail. And there was lots and lots of discussion as to whether or not her body would be found clothed or unclothed.

Eventually they decided on clothed because they didn’t want the idea complicating things that maybe she had been. Because she was killed, clothed, you know, that he had done anything to her after she was killed. 

Craig: But you don’t even see her body after do like, isn’t she just sub She’s submerged in the tub that is full of blood.

Blood. So you, there’s an arm. So you just see, like, you see her hand and like Yeah, her blood, clotted hair like sticking out of the top. It’s gruesome. It’s 

Todd: a bloody sleeve. It’s really gruesome. It’s over the top gruesome. Honestly, it’s really unbelievable. I 

Craig: mean, I, I see why, yeah, it should be rated R for sure.

It is very violent, but I don’t, I, I, I guess standards were different back then. Whatever the things that I read that they ultimately cut. Don’t seem uncomfortable to these things that are still in, like, that’s, yeah, that’s the thing that always weirds me out about the MPAA. Like there’s just a, a step too far, you know, like what, right.

Where, where do you draw the line? Like the line just seems so arbitrary. Maybe it’s only because I’ve read about West Craven so much. It just seemed like they really wanted to fuck with him. Like yeah, they just would not cut him a break every time. And I don’t. Get why, you know, you never know somebody and what they’re like in real life.

But every interview I’ve seen of Wes Craven every, you know, he seems like such a soft spoken Oh, nice guy. Balance. Balance, yeah. I mean like, he just seems like thoughtful. This super, super, yeah. Yeah. This great guy and why I don’t, again, maybe they were on everybody’s back, I don’t know. But it really, it pissed him 

Todd: off.

It’s about asserting power. I mean, you know, you get, then you get people like Steven Spielberg who stars are in their eyes when, when they review his movies and he can just kind of dictate what the rating’s gonna be and they’ll be like, okay, yeah. And then even just make a new rating just for him, which they did, you know?

Right. 

Craig: Alright, so the girlfriend’s dead. So the girlfriend’s dead, and then the. Jonathan has another dream about another murder, and yes, he confronts the killer in the murder. 

Todd: No, but this is crazy because this is so nightmare on Elm Street. Again, Jonathan, his whole life is apparently football because he’s at the football field again, where he has apparently driven his car onto the track for reasons I don’t, I didn’t even know that was allowed.

And he’s got his buddy there from the team and he’s like, you know what to do? He’s like, yeah, man, I think you’re tripping, but I know what to do. Oh, that’s right. And he’s planning exactly the same thing. He thinks that if he goes into this dream, so he like. Induces a dream, I guess, or takes a nap, 

Craig: I guess, 

Todd: or something like right there in front of his friend.

And sure enough has a dream about this killer threatening this woman at the top of a staircase. And, and he goes in and, and interrupts it. And then the killer again goes to grab him and he disappears because his friend has woken him up. Right? He was supposed to wake him up. It’s just so nightmare on Elm Street.

He’s ripping himself off, so it’s okay. You know? 

Craig: I know. You know, honestly, I was thinking in parts like these, like, was this just a sequel, a nightmare sequel that he wanted to make that they wouldn’t let him like it, it seems like it, it seems like it so easily could have just been adapted from a nightmare on Elm Street sequel script.

Yeah. But anyway, whatever. Okay, so now he knows where the killer is and he gets the cops and he takes them there. Well, they follow him. 

Todd: He doesn’t take him there. Oh, that’s right. That’s him on his own. But they are, that’s right. Watching him, his own dad has stake him out basically. 

Craig: Well, they’re smart ’cause he leads.

Them right to the killer and there’s a big chase and a big fight. Like is this one on the Yeah, this one’s on a rooftop. There’s like a rooftop fight. Like jumping across Yeah. Alleys and a lot of stunts. Yeah. And it’s fun. I enjoyed it. It was, you know, again, fast paced. Yeah. My god. It happened more quickly than we’ve recapped.

It did it though. I felt like it was a little long. Oh my God. I thought it was moving so fast. I like it. Never I, I mean, I guess the girlfriend stuff, but that was establishment. I’m fine with that. Whatever. But anyway. Okay. So the big, big chase, but eventually the, the, the cops show up and they arrest the killer and he says.

To Jonathan. You like killing two. It’s in your blood. You and me. I’m like, okay. And then they set up the ex, they’re gonna execute him. And in these movies, you know, when somebody is arrested for murder, they’re executed the next day. Yeah. And so that’s when they do the no more Mr. Nice Guy cover for this like execution setup scene.

So good. As the guards are walking down to take him out, like to take the killer to the electric chair. They’re like, his last wish was a TV in his cell. That’s weird. Uh, and then, uh, his last wish must have also included candles, jumper cables, 

Todd: tools to disassemble his tv. 

Craig: Yeah. He has like black candles lit, black candles and like feathers.

I think like. All around him in a circle. And then the TV is mounted up on the wall. Like his last wish was to have a TV mounted on the wall. On the wall. This was 

Todd: so 

Craig: hokey. I loved it. It reminded me of Nightmare three, that TV scene where that Oh yeah, yeah. Because he hooks himself up to via jumper cables to the tv and when they come in, he’s like, he’s doing a ritual and he gets like, I don’t know, energy or whatever, and they think he’s electrocuted and dead.

But then when they pull him out, one of the cops is like, you have to do CPR and the other one’s like, I’m not doing CPR. So the one who suggested it does, and he like bites his lip off and that’s, that was a fun effect. And then 

Todd: Comically, uh, gives, stretches his lower lip. It was comic. Yeah. 

Craig: I liked it. It’s 

Todd: really.

It’s really silly. And my, my, also, one of my favorite little, uh, details was maybe the most effeminate Catholic priest I’ve ever seen in a movie ran, ran in and went, goddamn this, goddamn this blasphemy. Throwing all the stuff around the room. I was like, oh man. Heavy, heavy melodrama. At this point, it’s, it’s like a Looney Tunes cartoon.

At times. I know. And I liked it. I thought it was fun. I don’t know, for me, I, I just thought totally. It didn’t establish the movie as Aloo Tunes cartoon through the whole way through, because what we had seen up to this point was quite brutal, you know, serious. 

Craig: I know. But even the villain himself, like Pinkerton or whatever his name is, he, he’s cartoonish.

Like he is a cartoon villain. He’s a sure, you know, like, he’s, he’s just bad. He, we don’t need to know his motivation. He’s just evil. He’s a bad guy. So that cartoonish nature of it, I was on board, like I was on the ride for it. It’s, I thought when he stretched out that cop’s lip and it stretches out like two and it’s, it’s so clearly fake.

Yeah. It’s like Roger Rabbit. Yeah. I thought it was really funny. Okay. But they get him into the electric chair and Jonathan and his dad, the copper there. To witness it, I guess. And while he’s sitting there in the electric chair, the killer is like, 

Clip: I was beating you real good when your mama tried to stop me with that gun that she brought into our happy home.

You saw me kill it. Don’t you remember how she screamed and how clever you were grabbing that gun and shooting me right to the fucking knee a little. 

Craig: Yeah, I remember that. 

Clip: I’m your dad.

Todd: They let him, I mean, come on. They let him go on and on. In fact, doesn’t somebody say something like they stop him or whatever and they say, no, no. He has a right to speak. Yeah. Apparently that whole monologue wasn’t in the original script. The actor, you know, who played this guy, said, honestly, he says, I was cast without much of an audition.

He said, I was just this big guy and I think he liked my look and what the few things I did say, but I, he said I, I felt like I arrived on set, having to prove that I could act. And once Wes Craven. In his opinion, realized he could act. He kept giving him more and more lines, and this whole monologue he wrote for him and he said, I wrote this for you because I think you can pull this off.

Craig: I liked it. I thought it was fun. It would be stupid, but well, whatever. Super dumb. Yeah. So, so then they try to electrocute him, but something goes 

Todd: wrong. He’s just alive. I mean, like, he doesn’t die. The the whole thing sparks and stuff doesn’t, yeah. And there, there’s a woman doctor who seems like she’s never set foot in there.

You should really get a doctor who has some experience with these executions because she, she walks in and just like, like tiptoes around the chair and just like, it’s the most ghastly thing in the world. And then runs out in disgust when 

Craig: Yeah, she touches him and she gets electrocuted and then mm-hmm.

He, he kills the guard and then they’re all looking for him and Jonathan and the cop dad eventually find him behind a door, but it’s just his body and it falls out. And his whole body like burns. To nothing leaving only his clothes scorched behind, 

Todd: right? All. And his dad just goes. Jesus, that chair really kicks ass.

Craig: Sure, sure. Whatever. But then the lady doctor is not dead. They’re taking her out and she’s being driven out now like they’re putting her in ambulance. Now, maybe it’s, it’s most probably just because I had seen this before, but immediately in my head I was like, oh, that’s not her. He’s in there now. You surely didn’t think that because why would you?

Because there, right. There’s been nothing to suggest that this is gonna be a body hopping movie. Right. But from this point on, it is. He’s in the body of this lady doctor. She kills the cops, which causes the cop car to drive into a fuel truck, which causes an enormous explosion, which everybody goes to investigate.

But one cop has been thrown from the explosion, and he’s still alive, but it’s not really him. You know? Again, this killer now can hop into bodies. At 

Todd: will. I sort of feel like this is why, there are times where I feel like when I was watching this, I feel like this is one of those movies that was just made up as they went along because so much of this isn’t really foreshadowed, not like it needs to be, but I expected some idea of, you know, when it just came, it just was like, whoa.

Oh, they’re body hopping. The guy can body hop. Okay. I didn’t really know what set that off. I dunno if he’s always been able to do it, or maybe that was his last thing with the tv. I don’t know. But it’s, it’s 47 minutes into this film. We are. Close to the halfway mark of this movie, which is unusual.

Usually this kind of stuff happens 15 minutes earlier. This is like act one stuff leading into act two and our act two is kicking off almost halfway through. This is why I felt like it was a little slow. Like you said, a lot of stuff happens, but everything that happens is set up to this point. 

Craig: Well, yeah, that fair enough?

But it, I feel like this is where it slows down because at this point, first of all, dead girlfriend shows up as a ghost and tells Jonathan that he needs to defeat the killer with the power of their love. And come on, I know. Really dumb. And gives him the necklace that. I don’t know, whatever. It’s the cheap Walmart heart necklace.

It gives it to him. The one she was buried with. Yes. Right. And this is right. And this is all in a dream. And at the end of the dream, they fall together into the waterbed, Allah. Johnny Depp in nightmare one, like Craven was into waterbeds, I guess it was. Hey, so were you. I was, I, I enjoyed a waterbed, but so then he wakes up and the, the necklace is in the bed, but then it just becomes, okay, so the cop.

The one who had survived shows up at his door at the same time that somebody is calling him and telling him that the cop has disappeared from the hospital. 

Todd: I think it’s his dad 

Craig: when he looks through the peephole of the door, the cop is there, but he’s like all scratched up and stuff and he’s like, twitchy.

So he knows something’s going up. So the cop, you know, shoots his way in. There’s a big long chase. He chases him to and through a park. Yes. Where, come on, this is a long scene. Yeah. Where he jumps into several different people and I don’t remember which one was first. This 

Todd: is a bold scene. 

Craig: Yeah,

Todd: the first thing going through my mind as this cop is limping after him is Jonathan is a football player. Jonathan can run like the wind and he still stops every now and then to turn around and let this guy get a couple shots off at him as he is limping behind him. There’s no way this guy’s gonna catch him.

This guy who is openly shooting firearms in the middle of a public park. There are literally people walking around in the background. I mean, I just, it’s, it’s broad daylight, late. It’s broad, daylight, middle of the day. It’s a bold, I’m just gonna say it’s a bold scene. Will I say it’s stupid? I’ll stop short of that ’cause I’m interested to see where it goes and yeah, this is the moment where we see the bad guy literally leaving the cop’s body.

There’s a jogger, I think, who I believe is West Craven’s son. Correct. Dumbass jogger who doesn’t leave fast enough, is he okay? And then just kind of wanders over. But even 

Craig: this didn’t make any sense because like, shocker, whatever his name is, seems to be kind of bound by the physical capabilities of the people that he’s in.

And Uhhuh, he shoots that jogger right? In the back. Yeah. And, and then jumps into him. Mm-hmm. 

Todd: Which doesn’t make any sense at all. And then out of nowhere, the guy’s looking on and a little girl on a bike just bumps into him and says, oops, sorry, Mr. And then rides off. And a woman comes up, says, excuse me sir, did you see a little girl?

And she’s calling for this little girl, Amanda. I was like, what? Why is this happening? And then Amanda’s battling with this jogger, and now she’s possessed and she’s dragging her leg too. This might 

Craig: be my favorite part of the movie. I mean, it’s, it’s really dumb, but it’s hilarious. This little girl running and dragging her leg and like grunting and making mean faces and she’s foul mouth.

Like she jumps into a bulldozer and like tries to start it and she’s like, come on, you move like this little, this beautiful little angelic blonde girl with long blonde hair. It’s funny, it’s really funny. John chases the kid a like tackles her and so then the mom attacks him and then the killer jumps into the mom and the killer as the mom.

Asks for the help of like a construction worker, and then he jumps into the construction worker and then the construction worker chases him. 

Todd: By the way, the construction worker is one of, um, Alice Cooper’s lead guitarist at that time. I saw 

Craig: that and I was surprised that he was, I mean, it’s not like he does a lot, but he’s in this scene and he plays the killer pretty well.

Like yeah, he acts, he acts. He’s not just standing there and he’s actually very sinister. I’m sorry, I’ll let you get to it, but he’s actually very sinister in the next. Scene where John sits down with his team of, you know, his football team and the coach who totally believe everything that he’s saying and make a plan to like take down the killer.

And then it like pans across the bleachers, like under the bleachers. And that construction worker, the killer and the construction worker’s body has just been standing there listening to the whole thing. That was spooky. I was impressed with that actor. 

Todd: Yeah, it was spooky. But here’s where I was just super confused about the rules because he holds up the necklace to the girl and then he leaps into the mom and he’s brandishing the necklace some more.

And then the construction worker walks by and he z zaps into the construction worker and then the guy goes after him with the pickax and then hooks. The necklace and ends up chucking it way out into the lake. So I’m thinking well apparent. Like clearly this necklace doesn’t do shit. This save me with your love thing.

There’s nothing to it. Are we supposed to believe that that necklace was doing something during that whole. Ordeal? 

Craig: I think so, but I don’t remember that part specifically. But it plays a significant part later because when the team is all meeting together, the first part of their plan is somebody has to go get the necklace.

Yes. From the bottom of a lake in the middle of the night. I 

Todd: kind of know where it is. He says, oh, bullshit. And also, come on, I know that maybe mentally he thinks, well, my ghost girlfriend told me this is important. But I just felt like in the moment that necklace didn’t do anything for him, why is he really so dead convinced that he needs to go get that necklace?

I don’t know. Couldn’t, the girlfriend 

Craig: kind of keeps showing up and you know, they hatch this plan and they split off and the coach and Pacman, Sam Ramey go off in one direction and he, and. Radar. I, he’s got another friend I don’t remember that’s hanging out with him. 

Todd: But can we talk about something else too?

Because when he’s talking to the coach and the team and he’s explaining everything, and you’re right, they just believe him. He says an important point is you can’t force him out of the body before he uses up the life force of the person he’s in. Yeah. I don’t know. And as soon as I heard that, I was like, does that mean the girl died?

And, and the mom too. But then the construction work, I guess. But no, after he leaps out of people, they’re not dead Right. 

Craig: Not right away. At least. Because Jonathan goes back to his apartment for some reason, and he finds the coach possessed in the shower and he fights the coach. And he somehow, I think, doesn’t he expel the bad guy from the coach and then No, he doesn’t.

No. See, I don’t know. Is there ever a time because in that scene he the, he, he tells, he’s like, coach, I know you’re in there, fight him. And you kind of see the coach like, oh, I’m trying to fight. But then the killer makes him like stab himself to death. I don’t remember if there is a point where he jumps out of somebody and that person.

Todd: Well his dad at toward the very end, I mean that, I think he jumps out of at least one or two people and they are totally fine afterwards. So it’s kind of weird. 

Craig: Yeah, the mom maybe the mom and the daughter, I don’t think they were dead. 

Todd: This whole sequence with the coach is cool. I mean the coach obviously means a lot to him and the coach seems to have some fight in him and the ghost of his girlfriend just steps out of the bathroom and is like, 

Clip: Cooper, for your own safe fight him.

Don’t let him take your soul. It’s like you say coach, coach, coach. It’s like you say, I know you’re in there. Everything is a matter of Will. Will him out. 

Todd: And she just kind of hangs there for a while. They’re not really doing anything. They’re just standing there watching the coach have this struggle with himself.

When he eventually stabs himself again, Jonathan does nothing. And then this thing starts to come out of, out of the coach and Allison does the care Bear stare at him? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Just big beam of light that then zaps him away. Like his spirit is like gone. Right. Or on the floor. He is crawling around, 

Craig: I 

Todd: guess, 

Craig: on the floor.

Right. And then this is the part, this is so funny to me because like he doesn’t even know, like we don’t know what the rules are. The killer doesn’t even know what the rules are. Yeah. He’s laying on the floor and he looks at an electrical outlet and he’s like, well, I don’t know. May as well give it a try.

But he literally says that and reaches out his two fingers, which then. Inexplicably extend into like, not blades, but like the ends of a plug to plug in and he plugs himself into the electrical outlet and like electrically gets sucked into the grid, I guess. I don’t know. Again, I’m seeing this probably when I’m like 12.

I don’t know. And yeah, I don’t care why he can, he can. The movie’s called Shocker. He got electrocuted. He’s electric now. Sure. I don’t know. What really concerns me is, and I don’t know exactly how quickly this happens, the dad gets shocked. A at, at this point. And the cops put Jonathan in the dad’s squad car because not only is the coach dead, but Ramey is dead too, right?

And like Jonathan has been leaving this big trail of dead people. The, the dad is like, like a bazillion people saw you running around in the park like attacking kids. Like it’s 

Todd: fair, it’s fair, it’s totally fair. You know, son or not, you gotta put on a phase at least, and, and do your due diligence. But I think Ghost Allison is ridiculous.

I’m sorry. 

Craig: It is ridiculous, but again, I just don’t care. But she hangs fine, but she hang out and after 

Todd: she does her beam of light at him and he’s going to the electrical outlet, suddenly like they just turn towards each other and goes, Allison just sits down and says, Jonathan, I have something very important to tell you.

Listen very carefully, and of course you know they’re never gonna get to hear it, right. That’s just such a typical movie thing. But I’m like, he can just hang out with his ghost girlfriend almost any time, any day of the week. Like she just comes and goes very nonchalantly throughout this movie. 

Craig: Do we ever find out what that important thing was that she had to tell him?

No, I don’t think so. I don’t think we knew either. 

Todd: But I just wanna know why if ghost, if Ghost Alice could just pop in and out of every now and then and do her chest light beam, why doesn’t she do it more often to take care of this guy? 

Craig: I don’t know. Then, okay, so, so the killer is in the dad now, and there’s a big chase where the dad is chasing the kid and they end up, I guess, at a TV station, there’s a huge action piece where they end up at the top of like a satellite tower.

And Jonathan like throws the killer in his dad’s body over the side and he’s hanging on by this satellite. And somehow, I don’t know how the killer realizes that he can, I guess, transmit himself via satellite. Well, that’s not how electricity works. Now, this is the only part that I was like, what? Like I, I can, I can get behind the electricity.

Okay. You know, like he did some voodoo shit and he got electrocuted in the electric chair. So now his essence is electricity. He can go into power outlets, he can jump as electricity into other people because you know, I can rub my sock on the carpet and shock somebody so sure. Like sure, he can transfer into people through electricity.

I can be down with that. But at this point where he just decides that he can go through. Satellite, the air, right. Makes no sense. 

Todd: Dad is hanging over one of the satellite dishes that’s presumably broadcasting from the television station, and I think we’re meant to believe that he gets out of dad’s body because dad tricks him because he says, oh, oh my heart.

My heart, yes. And that’s when this guy says, oh, all right, asshole. I’m nationwide now. And he leaves the body and gets into, yes, the electricity of the air. Then Jonathan says, dad, I didn’t know you had a bad heart. And he said, I don’t. I knew that you knew that. Pinker didn’t. Yeah, really. He can just be tricked like that.

Yeah. Bad writing. So anyway, so there’s that. But yeah, so he gets into the electrical waves, like you said. Uh, not electrical waves, the 

Craig: satellite TV satellite and, and then we hear on the news again that now there have been like these copycat crimes, but the strange thing is it doesn’t seem like there’s any sign of forced entry or whatever.

So we’re to believe that now this killer is traveling around through people’s TVs and killing them in the same way that he was before John and his football friends devise some plan dealing with video cameras, a live TV broadcast, and. The electrical plant. I don’t really understand all of it. I don’t either, but it’s the best.

He hires like a news crew to come set up in his little sister’s room where she was killed, and they’re like, what are we gonna see? And he’s like, uh, I guess you’ll just have to wait to find out. I don’t, whatever his friends, it’s so dumb. I know. It’s so dumb. His friends, it is really dumb. It’s all to set up now.

I don’t remember. Oh, oh, well he does, he swims out and finds the necklace at the bottom of the lake. With his ghost girlfriend’s help, I guess. And then I think that Jonathan is, is setting Pinkerton the killer up, but Pinkerton or whatever his name is, comes and visits him. Like he comes out of the TV through a nature program into his room.

The idea was cool. Yeah. Concurrently, John is like having this dream. He’s still at the lake, I guess. I don’t know. He’s having this dream out where all, all of the victims, well all at this point, all of the victims that we’ve seen so far are like walking dead, like walking out of the mist, warning him about something.

But Allison convinces him to go back and fight and he wakes up and he’s got the necklace on. And he sits in his massage chair Or was he already in the massage chair? No, he sits in his massage chair because this is when the massage chair comes to life and like literally like grabs him, their eyeballs.

Eyeballs come out of it. And like at first you can tell that it’s like a person kind of in like a massage chair costume, but then it just straight up turns into the killer and he can. Pop in and out of anything electric, but he can, he’s also corporeal. It doesn’t make any sense. 

Todd: No, it doesn’t make, it’s, he’s electric.

Freddy, in a way. Like, you know, sometimes Freddy bends the rules a little bit too. Like he’s out of the dream and he can still do stuff. Can I ask you. Were you also thinking Cherry when 

Craig: life? A little bit. A little bit. Oh, 

Todd: a hundred percent. It’s even the same color. You know, cherry, Ugh. His arms would move around.

It’s so funny. Yeah, I know. I know. But Cherry was nice. Cherry was much nicer than the hold thing seems to be that he has his friends coordinate knocking out the power to the entire city at the same time that he coaxes this guy out of the TV screen. So that, I think it’s kind of like a Freddie deal, right?

Where Nancy is like, if I can grab onto him while I’m in the dream, I can pull him out. Just pulls him out and he can’t go anywhere. And maybe even without any electricity around him, he would just die like nobody really knows. It’s very unclear, it’s super 

Craig: unclear, but it does set up this. Like, I feel like the whole movie was building to this scene where, oh yeah, they’re, they’re, they’re fighting in the real world and Jonathan uses the love necklace to like repel him.

And so the, the killer retreats into the tv. He dives into the TV and Jonathan says something like, Allison, give me the power to do this. Ugh, Uhhuh. And then he dives into the TV too. And it’s not like I’ve never seen this before, but I really enjoyed it. In this movie, they then fight through a series, like they’re like channel surfing, like they’re fighting, but their fight like keeps throwing them into different television programs.

And it might be historical footage of World War ii, or it might be a game show, or it might be a news, you know, it might be John Tesh, leave it to Beaver Alice Cooper Concert footage. Exactly. And And it was fun. Again, I’ve seen it’s done before. Did you ever see that movie? Stay tuned with John Ritter. I was just gonna say that.

Yeah, 

Todd: this 

Craig: is very much like that. 

Todd: I like that movie too. And I feel like this is supposed to be kind of goofy too. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Todd: Oh, totally. 

Craig: And And people can see them on tv. Like they are, yeah. Live broadcast. And not only that, but they can jump out of TVs into real people’s. And that scene where they jumped into that family’s living room.

Oh my God. And there was like a great big fat woman in rollers on the couch. Like, Hey, watch what you’re doing. And like two Dillards just like sitting in the back, like not even reacting, like, and they’re destroying this family’s house and the family’s just sitting there. I suppose you could call it commentary.

Oh yeah, a hundred percent. But I mean, it’s really just stupid. And it’s funny. I laughed. I laughed. I was having 

Todd: a good time. Well, you can’t help. I mean, the tone is clear when they dive back into the TV and the woman goes. I’ve heard of audience participation shows, but this is ridiculous. Oh, but think of this.

And now imagine the first 20 minutes of the movie, they’re almost polar opposites of each other. Fair. That’s fair. And I just felt it was very jarring going to this if it had gotten gradually more insane. And I guess you kind of say it does, but I mean, it, it doesn’t feel like the theme of the movie was aiming for this.

Now suddenly it is. This, I just, I really, especially with all the goofy, corny stuff that was happening in the middle, I’m not quite sure if it was intentionally cheesy or if it just came across that way. It’s just jarring for me. It’s not a scary movie. No, it’s, it feels like in the beginning it’s setting itself up to be a scary movie and then by the middle and toward the end of it, it’s just playing Looney Tunes.

It’s just a big fight scene maybe that was really in, and Wes Craven was a smart guy. Maybe that was really what he was going for. This is his commentary on how television is and, and the kinds of things we consume for entertainment nowadays. And how Baal, you know, he, he had a lot to say about that. Maybe this is also a commentary on kind of how Freddy.

Went. Mm-hmm. So I can kind of see what he’s doing. It just didn’t work for me in the moment. 

Craig: And, and that’s totally fine. I mean, I, I do, I can look at the criticisms of this and say, you have an excellent point. Everything that you’re saying, and not just you, I’m just saying anybody who has criticisms of, of the movie, I think that they are totally fair.

I just. Had fun with it. I sure. You know, low expectations. I, I, you know, whatever. And, and I do think, if I’m not mistaken, if you look at IMDB and you look at the genres that this is categorized in, I think it is first listed as a comedy. Is it? I think so, and I may be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure I