When was the last time you sparked up a conversation with a stranger and surprised yourself with how good it felt? 

Behavioral scientist Nicholas Epley, author of A Little More Social, returns to the podcast to discuss with Michael why we systematically underestimate how positively strangers respond, how connection supports happiness, health, and longevity, and the key mechanisms behind our social pessimism (misjudging warmth vs. competence, overlooking reciprocity, and self-fulfilling avoidance). 

Nicholas shares research on how quickly people update after a conversation and how fast those gains can fade, plus practical “easy choice” experiments like asking someone to take your photo or simply asking, “Can you tell me your story?” 

Plus, in a special post-interview discussion, listener-turned-friend of Michael’s, therapist Dr. Jennifer Kauder, joins Michael to reflect on voice vs. text, comfort-zone challenges, and why real-time connection changes everything.

Listen and Learn: 

• The surprising benefits of connecting with people you don't know, and why our minds trick us into fearing these interactions that can lengthen and enrich our lives
• Psychological traps that make us overly pessimistic about reaching out to others, and why we miss out on deeper, happier connections due to misplaced expectations 
• Research on why trying to push past social awkwardness just once isn't enough, and why our brains quickly forget positive interactions 
• Why our confidence drops right before we approach someone new, the psychology behind why starting a conversation is much easier than anticipating it, and how small mindsets can instantly dissolve social anxiety 
• A simple, foolproof question that skips past awkward small talk, ignites genuine curiosity, and uncovers the fascinating, hidden stories

Resources: 

• A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593319543 
• Nicholas’ Website: https://www.nicholasepley.com/
• Nicholas Epley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-epley/  
• Michael's Confidence Course: https://herold.coach/course
• Rejection Proof by Jia Jiang: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780804141383 

About Nicholas Epley

Nicholas Epley is the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science and Director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research, at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He studies social cognition—how thinking people think about other thinking people—to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. He teaches an ethics and happiness course to MBA students called Designing a Good Life. His research has appeared in more than two dozen empirical journals, been featured by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, CNN, Wired, and National Public Radio, among many others, and has been funded by the National Science Foundation and the Templeton Foundation. He has been awarded the 2008 Theoretical Innovation Award from the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, the 2011 Distinguished Scientific Award for Early Career Contribution to Psychology from the American Psychological Association, the 2015 Book Prize for the Promotion of Social and Personality Science, and the 2018 Career Trajectory Award from the Society for Experimental Social Psychology. Epley was named a “professor to watch” by the Financial Times, one of the “World’s Best 40 under 40 Business School Professors” by Poets and Quants, and one of the 100 Most Influential in Business Ethics in 2015 by Ethisphere. He is the author of Mindwise: How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want. 

His new book, A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection, was published in May! (Our UK listeners will find the book titled Hello: The Unexpected Power of Choosing To Connect)

Related Episodes

• 422. Mindwise with Nicholas Epley
• 454. Remain Calm. Confidence Ahead with Michael Herold
• 313. ACT-Informed Exposure for Anxiety with Brian Pilecki and Brian Thompson
• 393. Supercommunicators with Charles Duhigg
• 360. The Laws of Connection with David Robson

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