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Dave Koch of Real Estate Media Utah had me excited to record something different for today's interview! Dave has been running a successful luxury real estate photography business in Utah, USA, for the past decade.

His Instagram bio says: Utah's Premiere Real Estate & Architectural Photographer, Custom Commercial, Aerial and Home Media Creators.

And looking through his feed, you'll see stunning images and comparison examples of what a less talented photographer would produce, compared to his work.

His website is easy to navigate and full of beautiful imagery of stunning homes. He says on his site: From social media-optimised vertical videos for ‘Reels' to floor plans, 3D tours, and video tours, we’ve got you covered.

And… We shoot everything- from ten-million-dollar homes in Park City to duplexes in Magna.

As someone who hears that real estate photography is a terrible genre in which photographers are overworked and underpaid, I'm looking forward to learning more and seeing if I'm totally wrong.

In this interview, Dave shares a smarter way to do real estate photography and how to shoot less to earn more.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

Copyright RE Photography UTAH 801 819-8141

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

Any photography is what you make of it. And I think if you are geared toward doing the best possible product, whatever your genre, you're going to challenge yourself every day with new and better shoots. – Dave Koch

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

People are not critical of their own work… you're thinking, I can fix it in Photoshop, and that's not the answer. The answer is to continue to shoot until you've got the picture designed the way it should be and the way it needs to be. – Dave Koch

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

@Copyright Dave Koch 801 819-8141

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Dave shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

Build a network of people that do what you do in other cities. They're called mastermind groups… we help each other out. Because, again, it's a zero sum game. If I help you, we're all better for it. – Dave Koch

If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Dave, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

How to Sell Like a Mofo – New Live Training for Photographers

If you’ve ever said “I hate selling”… this one’s for you.

No sleazy tactics. No pushy scripts.
Just a real-world sales process that works — taught by a working photographer who's doing this every day.

(Yep, the same legend behind “Advertise Like a Mofo” – Richard Grenfell is back.)

This live 2-part training is made for photographers who want to:

Feel confident on sales calls (even if you hate the phone)

Sell more, without sounding salesy

Set up your shoot to sell more images before you even pick up the camera

Handle objections, talk pricing, and walk clients through the sale with ease

Session 1: Thursday May 15 @ 8am AEST
Session 2: Thursday May 22 @ 8am AEST
Replays available if you can’t make it live
Just USD$397 (price doubles after the live calls)
Register early and get “Advertise Like a Mofo” FREE (normally USD$197) or another awesome Masterclass.

Head here for all the details and to grab your spot: https://learn.photobizx.com/sell-like-a-mofo/

If you’re a working photographer and want to sell more without selling your soul — this training is for you.

Copyright RE Photography UTAH 801 819-8141

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

Don't show your shit. You know, only show your very, very best… you're judged by your worst picture, not your best picture. – Dave Koch

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

I shot an $8 million home yesterday, and it took me six hours to do 8000 square feet… I made $1,200 on which, you know, yes, I'm going to be editing for a while too… But you know, if I'm doing five of those jobs a week, I'm making pretty good money. – Dave Koch

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Here is the latest review…

★★★★★ Andrew isn’t just hosting, he’s digging

Via Google Reviews by Costa Brava Wedding Photographer, Jordi Marimont in Spain on May 8th, 2025.

I’ve been listening to PhotoBizX for a couple of years now. I’m not a premium member (yet), but even the free episodes are packed with value. There’s always something I can apply to my business.

What I love most about the podcast is that it doesn’t focus on the guest’s life story. It’s all about the value they can offer through their experience.

Andrew isn’t just hosting, he’s digging. Even when a guest drifts off-topic, he knows how to gently guide things back and pull out the insight we’re actually there for. That’s a real skill. And even when the episode is about a different kind of photography business, I still find nuggets that apply to my wedding work.

It’s now always part of my dog rides when there is a new episode.

Thanks for showing up, Andrew.

@Copyright Dave Koch 801 819-8141

Real Estate Photography Utah

Commercial Photography Utah

Real Estate Photography with Dave on YouTube

Real Estate Photography Utah on Instagram

People are literally hiring me because, hey, I saw your pictures. I like that look. I want you to do that for me. So I'm not being hired to shoot a house anymore. I'm being hired to do what I do to a house. And for me, that's the big thing. – Dave Koch

Copyright Dave Koch 801 819-8141

Thanks for tuning in. A big thanks to Dave for generously sharing his thoughts and ideas on real estate photography for profit. His perspective is a breath of fresh air in a genre that’s often misunderstood. He’s not just shooting homes; he’s building a business with strategy, purpose, and real clarity. From pricing effectively to nailing the shot in-camera and showing up with intention. Hope you get as much from it as I did.

When you start to feel that that hurt inside, or that attack inside, that's when you need to listen the hardest, because that's when you're going to learn the most. – Dave Koch

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

@Copyright RE Photography UTAH 801 819-8141

Dave Koch: Thank you so much, Andrew. I'm really, really happy to be here, and actually kind of excited. I'm hoping to convert you.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, let's start there. Like, am I totally wrong? Because does real estate photography have the same vibe in the States?

Dave Koch: You know what I think, first off, any photography is what you make of it. And I think if you are geared toward doing the best possible product, whatever your genre, you're going to challenge yourself every day with new and better shoots. And to me, my joy in photography is every day getting better and growing and learning. And to me, you know, I would stifle in an office. That's the same thing every day. And to me, it's just a wonderful thing to have new and different challenges every day and have to solve those challenges. To me, photography, everybody thinks, "Oh, it's super easy. You sit there, you push the button and you're done". And to me, that's not photography at all. To me, photography is problem solving, and then I make a picture.

Andrew Hellmich: I totally understand where you're coming from, and I agree with what you're saying, but I get the impression, when I've spoken to other real estate photographers here in Australia, that that genre almost feels like a cookie cutter style of photography, where you just get in, get the shots, get out of there and onto the next one. You're working fast. You're doing as much as you can in a day, and then you race home and do all this editing, because everyone wants everything the same day. Like, is that how it is?

Dave Koch: That can be how it is. I'm going to say a couple of biased or prejudiced things, and I'm going to make generalizations. So this is not everybody in the business, but I do think there are generally two business models. And one is, as you've described, they'll do five shoots per day. They do them for $75 a day, or something like that. And they do it on volume. And it's repetition, repetition, repetition. You stand in the corner, you shoot into the room from the four corners, go to the next room you're in and out of a house in 35 minutes. And it's a valid, you know business. You know these tend to be the people who hire five or six people to work for them. They're the that sort of thing. And then I kind of consider myself at the polar opposite of that. I shot an $8 million home yesterday, and it took me six hours to do 8000 square feet, which, you know, the other model they would gag on, you know, six hours in there, but, you know, I went through and I was watching the light we shot the back half of the house in the morning, when the light was coming in there. We're not avoiding the light. We're getting the light, and then we get the front half of the house in the afternoon, when that light's coming. And for me, like that job yesterday, I made $1,200 on, which, you know, yes, I'm going to be editing for a while too. You have to consider that into it also. But you know, if I'm doing five of those jobs a week, I'm making pretty good money.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely.

Dave Koch: And part of what people are doing now is sending a lot of jobs, especially editing jobs to Vietnam and having them done there. And it can be done very inexpensively, or it can be done very expensively, depending on, again, where you are in the market, but I do not spend all my time editing the house yesterday as an example, I did send part of it to Vietnam, the second bedrooms, the second bathrooms, all that stuff. But things like the living room and the bedroom are things I take pride in, and those are the major features of the house. I'll send you a couple of images from it. And I think you know the people that you describe the five shoots a day people, there's a giant difference between that and what you see in Architectural Digest.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Dave Koch: And while I never imply that I was at that level, hopefully I'm approaching that. And you know, that's my goal, that's where I'm setting my sights, and that's why I'm spending six or eight hours a day in one home.

Andrew Hellmich: When you go into a home like that one yesterday, and you get to be creative, you get to explore the light, look at how you can bash off the rooms and the features of the home. Do you get time to do that? Is that built into your pricing?

Dave Koch: Yes, oh yeah, right.

Andrew Hellmich: So tell me, how does the pricing work for, let's say for the house yesterday, is it the agent that's paying you or the home owner?

Dave Koch: Okay, there's a couple of questions there. I'll get the quick one. First, who's paying me? Generally, it's the agent. And a lot of times at the level where I'm shooting, the agents who are hiring me are, we kind of say amongst ourselves, they're not hiring me to sell that house, they're hiring me to sell them as a realtor to get their next house. And so they want things to look really, really good and well, exceptional, hopefully, so that people will know to go to them, to sell those other high end homes and that sort of thing. As far as taking the time backing up to websites, you know, your website is your calling card on the internet. And just as in your introduction, you presented me from what you saw on my website, that's how the people who hire me expect me to be. So it says on that website that I'm going to spend 3-4-5, hours doing a home so I think people expect that. And then the final product, you know, there's a big difference between me and what I would call an HDR photographer, and you can see the difference. And so I'm so incredibly lucky because now people are literally hiring me because, "Hey, I saw your pictures. I like that look. I want you to do that for me". So I'm not being hired to shoot a house anymore. I'm being hired to do what I do to a house. And for me, that's the big thing.

Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like you are approved photography. It's not like cookie cutter photography, like I described earlier, but in your situation, say yesterday's house, again as an example, are you paid the same if you knock it over in four hours or two hours?

Dave Koch: I have different pricing levels to accommodate for that. And to be honest, and I really hope I don't sound vain or anything, but my pricing levels start fairly high, and that in itself is sort of selective in who my clients are going to be, someone who you know is doing a two story walk up, you know, town home is not going to be wanting to spend 5-6-800 dollars to shoot it. So it kind of is self-selective that way to get me more towards the higher end. That being said, I still have a lot of clients from when I was working and learning and growing, and I still shoot for them, and I do all their stuff at my old prices compared to the new prices would be.

Andrew Hellmich: So with your new pricing, and let's just stay with yesterday's house, because that's a good example.

Dave Koch: Okay, oh, it's a beautiful house.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So does the agent choose which package? Because I can see, like with your packages, only go up into the, I think it's $600 595 or something. But then there's lots of add-ons. So does the agent sit down with you and nut out what they want, or you try and sell them on these customizations?

Dave Koch: To a certain extent. Are you familiar with Matterport?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So that's where you have the video. Sort of walk through a studio space or a home.

Dave Koch: Right? Yeah. So that's something an agent would choose, you know, "Hey, I want not only pictures, but I want people to be able to do that tour or something like that". Another thing might be twilights, and that is something I would push on them, especially like yesterday's home, you know, it had a view out to the Great Salt Lake, and it looked beautiful at sunset. It had a pool, it had a tennis court, it had a squash court. You know, you don't not shoot that at sunset because it's just gorgeous. So, you know, and some of those things are just easy to add on. But generally, when we get to the house, they'll say, "There it is. Go do your thing". And you know, I like to be left alone in the home and just go through it and do it at my own pace. And generally, there's nobody else there in the home. Occasionally, I'll have an assistant if I'm doing more commercial work, like interior designers or something like that, I'll have an assistant. But for regular real estate, it's just me versus the house. And like I said, you know, I got light streaming in. How am I going to deal with that? And I've got to figure out how to do that. And it's the challenges like that that make my job so much fun, I think.

Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like you love it, which is awesome.

Dave Koch: Oh, I do.

Andrew Hellmich: So tell me, with yesterday's house, how do you get from, say, 595, from your premium plus pictures or your luxury photography package? How do you get from there to, did you say it was 12-13, $1,400 in the end?

Dave Koch: Yeah, part of it is square footage. I charged by square footage, and then we added on the sunset shot. And that, I'll be honest, I do not, especially as we get into summer, I actually hate twilights, because you can't even start shooting them till eight or 9 PM and you know that just screws up your whole day. So I've raised the price of that a lot. It's, I think, $300 now to do that for three pictures. But they're also, those are the eye grabbers. Those are the things that are going to get people in.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, yeah, for sure. They really stand out. So I just want to understand, Dave, so the agent hires you, you turn up to the house yesterday, is that when you have your check boxes of what he wants or what she wants from the photo session, or have you discussed this on the phone beforehand? So you turn up, you know what you're doing for the day.

Dave Koch: You know the instructions I get are just typically "Shoot the house", "Oh, I want a Matterport," "Oh, I want a video". "Oh, I want twilight", the way I look at a house is I will, typically, the first thing I'll do is either the agent or the homeowner will walk me through the whole house, and I'll talk to them about things that they like. One of the questions I always ask a homeowner is, "Where do you drink your coffee in the morning?". You know? Because that's going to be a special spot, and they're going to know that house way better than I do. So I have them show me what they think is really cool about the house, and I listen. That's part of what you got to do, is you got to listen and you find the character of the home. And that's, to me, the key. I don't shoot any house the same. I try and it sounds silly and it sounds goofy, maybe, or something like that. But every house, you know, the house yesterday, had a really nice, gentle light to it and really light walls. And so I shot it in a way that I thought accentuated that. Two days ago, I shot another beautiful home that had a lot of darker wood, and the homeowners kept saying, "Well, this isn't gonna appeal to a lot of people, because we have such weird taste". And I said, "Yeah, but that's what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to show that weirdness, because your client, the person who will buy the house will find that appealing, and that's why you have to show the character of the home, because that's what's going to get the buyer who's going to love that home".

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay.

Dave Koch: Does that make sense?

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely, it does. It does. In the intro, and I saw on your website, you know, you talked about, you know, 10 million dollar homes in Park City to duplexes in Magna. So I don't know Magna, but I'm guessing it's, is it lower socio economic, or is it still pretty fancy?

Dave Koch: It's lower. Yeah, I don't want to run, there's actually some beautiful places out in Magna too, but it's more starter homes and things like that. And again, oh, this sounds so incredibly vain, but I think, you know, there's beauty in every home, and if you sit there, you can find that beauty. And you know, if somebody is willing to pay me to go in there, I will work harder in Magna than I did yesterday, because, you know, the home yesterday was designed to show the light, whereas the homes in Magna have eight foot ceilings, and, you know, bouncing light around is hard to do, and typically they have curtains and all that. Magna is hard.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you still feel inspired when you go to Magna? Because I'm curious, like, why do you even have that on your website? Why not just stick to the premiere real estate?

Dave Koch: Because I don't, you know, a realtor the other day, well, I'm sorry, two years ago, she had me in a 6570, a nice house, really nice house. And we were talking, and she said, "Well, I've got another listing coming up, but it's only 2000 square feet, so it's nothing you'd be interested in". And I said, "No, I'm happy to do that. That's what I do. I shoot homes". And they said, "Oh, I thought you only shot really expensive ones". And I thought, "Oh, I've gone too far that way". And so I just think, you know, if somebody really thinks that a home has potential, don't discount me to go in there and shoot it, because I will make it as good as I possibly can, whether it's in Magna or on the West Bench.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, nice. So with your pricing model, can you bring in a revenue, say, $200,000 Is that doable?

Dave Koch: You know, I was talking about this exact subject with a couple of other photographers in Portland, and they hit 200 and I don't quite do that. I'm definitely over 100 though, but I'm exactly where I want. I've got the work level where, you know, I did a shoot this morning, 80 miles away. Tell me, this is not the most beautiful day in the world. I go out I shoot this giant plantation. It was 20 some odd acres, small, itty bitty house. The guy, I think, has dementia, you know, so it's going downhill and all that. But on the way back, I saw a moose, and on the way back, I saw five eagles flying, and one of them had some kill, and they were fighting over it, and it was like an aerial ballet. And, you know, I have the opportunity to experience life and not just be a slave to my work. And I'm doing work I love, but I'm not going crazy.

Andrew Hellmich: Just tell me a little bit about that, Dave, so when you say you're not going crazy, does that make, I get the impression, after doing a lot of these interviews and hearing from a lot of people based in the US, I feel as though you work way harder than most other nationalities. I feel like the Americans are working super hard. So do you give yourself some downtime?

Dave Koch: You know? I, Okay. There's six or eight other real estate photographers that are coming into town in two weeks, and I'm going to take them all down to Moab, M, O, A, B, look it up. It's like the center, you ever seen a road runner, coyote cartoon?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

Dave Koch: Yeah, that's what it looks like there.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that Zion National Park?

Dave Koch: It's just east of that. It'll be arches and canyon lands, which are that same sort of thing. I'll send you some pictures of that too.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I've been to Zion, so I know Zion.

Dave Koch: Oh, you have.

Andrew Hellmich: I've been to Utah. I've got a friend who lives in Morgan, yeah.

Dave Koch: That's awesome. Well, if and when you come back, call me up, I will tour you around. We will have so much fun.

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds amazing. So, yeah, so do you give yourself like you're not working? I mean, are you doing 40 hours a week? Are you doing 60 hours a week?

Dave Koch: You know, I'm probably doing 10 to 12 hours a day.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're working, that's pretty hard.

Dave Koch: But, you know, no, it's, it's two or three hours of shooting or four hours of shooting, and then I come back here, and I sit here and I edit, and then I go upstairs and I make dinner for my wife, you know, and I'm not tied to my desk. And if it's too much, I'll send more to Vietnam, if I need a day or two off. You know, it's typically June, July, August is our busy season, and right now, my April looks like my typical August. It's really building up right now, and I had to do the saddest thing today, because of that Moab trip, I had somebody call me, and they wanted me to shoot a Gulf Stream 650 which is like the biggest Gulf Stream there is, and do it in Oakland. But it had to be that weekend that we were doing Moab.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, no.

Dave Koch: Yeah. And I had to turn them down. And I felt so bad, because I'm usually really good at moving things around. But yeah, I was in Long Island two weeks ago, and I shot two planes there. I shot two planes on Sunday, next week, I'm going to Dallas, May 5th and 6th. I just booked something in Vegas. So in addition to doing all the houses, I'm flying around and doing stuff too, which is just a blast.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. I mean, it sounds like you've created a wonderful lifestyle for yourself. What would you do differently if you were starting over, like I'm looking for did you make any mistakes? Could you get to where you are now more quickly, if you did something different?

Dave Koch: I think mistakes are the best way to learn. That, being said, you don't want to make that many. I started out as a television news photographer. So I spent 15 years as a photographer covering news stories, shooting presidents and, you know, things like that. So I had a real strong background in photography. And I knew a lot about lighting and things like that, but I didn't know much about this genre, so I made a lot of mistakes, and mainly in houses in Magna, you know, but that's why you shoot those and that, have you ever heard of the 10,000 hour rule? Yes, I am a firm believer in the 10,000 hour rule. I think you need to put in that time, and not just because you're learning, but because it, I don't think about exposure anymore. I don't think about exposure triangle anymore. I don't think about F stops anymore. I think about the image, and that's all I worry about, is what I'm seeing on the back of the camera, and then I just dial my little dials till I get the picture that I want. If I had to say anything that I see photographers doing that I think is their biggest mistake, it's forgetting that you have that little thing there. You know that you can look at the thing you just shot, and what you need to do is look at it and be critical. People are not critical of their own work. They need to look at it and say, "Oh, the sky is blown out, so I need to adjust for that". You know, you're thinking, I can fix it in Photoshop, and that's not the answer. The answer is to continue to shoot until you've got the picture designed the way it should be in the way it needs to be.

Andrew Hellmich: You can't bring a blown out sky back unless you add light yeah to the room.

Dave Koch: Right, yeah. And then you go on Facebook, and you go to the all these Lightroom forums or whatever, and they're like, can you fix this sky? Or, you know, can you take this person out of this image? And it's like, you just go, "You know, what?, you should have done that there". And I think that's people's biggest problem is they think, "Oh, Photoshop is magic", and it can be to a certain extent, but the more and more you can shoot for the edit, just even knowing that that's going to be a, if you know you've got a problem, fix it, combine it in Photoshop, and then you've got the problem solved. But just shoot something and say, "Oh, Photoshop will fix it. No."

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, absolutely. I want to ask you more about technique and equipment and things like that in just a minute, but staying with the business side. If you're giving advice to me, and I want to get into real estate photography, but I want to do what you're doing. I want to photograph the luxury homes and charge 12, $1,500 for those sessions. I don't want to be shooting in Magna, poor Magna.

Dave Koch: I know I feel so bad. It's really not a bad place.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm sure it's not. So would you tell me? What would you say to me? Would you say, "No, you have to go and cut your teeth down there in Magna first with those homes".

Dave Koch: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: You would.

Dave Koch: Yeah. Okay, going to Vegas, going to Dallas next week, I'm charging in the three to $5,000 range for these shoots, Because I'm shooting big aircraft, and they're flying me in and things like that. I cannot afford to make a mistake. I cannot. And this goes way back to TV news. That's a lesson I learned there is you can't come back and not have the images, you have to. You know, you can experiment and play and all you want after, but get the images first. And I think part of that is, again, it's that 10,000 hour rule. It's getting to the point where you know you have the images and recognizing when you don't, and fixing it so that you do, and that's all part of that. You know, I think there's a reason that apprenticeships have been in human existence since the beginning of time, because you're not an expert to begin with. Do you know the Dunning Kruger?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, yeah. I heard about that recently, the Dunning Kruger effect.

Dave Koch: Yeah, Dunning, Some of the older photographers that I know, you know, will see this new guy, and you know, God bless them. They're trying really hard, and they look how good I've done with this, you know. And we'll just look at each other and we'll go the Dunning Kruger is strong with this one.

Andrew Hellmich: So for the listener who doesn't, hasn't heard this term or this expression, this is someone who sees their abilities as much higher than what they really are. Would that be a good way to explain it?

Dave Koch: Yeah. And you know what? It's a good thing in a lot of ways, too, because it keeps you excited. And I think if you really work hard. And really, if you watch a lot of videos on YouTube, and if you go to like PMRE and join the Photographer PPA, you know, there's a lot of really good people there. And even, you know, a lot of people help me to get to where I am. And now I'm all about giving back. I'm all about helping new people, because it's not a zero sum game. I can win and you can win too. You know, you don't have to lose for me to win. And so I think there's so many resources and, you know, the internet and all that, it's easy to get to about 80% of being a really great photographer, and I think you can do that in a year. I really do from no experience at all, really working hard, but that next 20% is going to take you 20 years.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay. What's an example, Dave, what's an example of someone having helped you to get where you are today?

Dave Koch: Can I go all the way back to television?

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Dave Koch: Okay, this is the thing that stands out in my mind. In television, we had sweeps week, and we try and do stories that were like sensational, you know, to try and get ratings for those sweeps weeks. And so we would always try and come up with something we wanted to do. And my friend Graham Ledger and I, he was a reporter, I was the cameraman, we decided to do a week-long series on prostitution, and so we ended up going to the Mustang Ranch in Nevada, and we got to go in and meet all the girls. And you know, we did a lot of different things. Anyway, I worked hard on this. I came back and the chief photographer came in, and we showed him the final cuts, and he just said, "That's shit. That's horrible". And it killed me, and it sounds horrible, but I learned something really good there, and that's the more it hurts. If somebody tells you you're shooting great, it doesn't help you at all. And while he may not have been the most eloquent person with his criticism, you know, when you start to feel that hurt inside, or that attack inside, that's when you need to listen the hardest, because that's when you're gonna learn the most. And I don't recommend telling somebody else their work is shit, but if somebody's critiquing your work and you're starting to feel like a little edgy, perk up. That's when you need to listen.

Andrew Hellmich: That's interesting. That's interesting. Tell me about actually getting the jobs. Is it through relationships with real estate agents? Is it having your website rank well, SEO wise, and having great work on there, like, how do you get bookings? Maybe tell us when you started. How did you get bookings when you started, compared to now,

Dave Koch: I knew a couple realtors, and that's what got me started and that's what helped me build my portfolio, is I would just do all their stuff. But there's a variety of different ways, you hit on website, and I think that's very important. I think SEO these days is super, super important. That's search engine optimization and designing your site so that it hits for the words that people are searching for in your area. But more and more, social media is very important too. I know people who get all their jobs, every single one of them from Instagram. I don't know how that happens. I don't understand it, but that's what they do. And I think more and more reels are really hitting for people. And I think while I don't think everything is definitely going to go the way of video and reels only, I think reels are the growing area in this business. And while I started off in video and TV. I don't do video at all anymore. I'm just not good at it in the new context of things.

Andrew Hellmich: How do you offer reels or Matterport videos to your clients?

Dave Koch: I hire a local person who does them.

Andrew Hellmich: All right. So you bring someone else out.

Dave Koch: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because again, for me, it's got to be top notch, you know? It can't be lazy or anything like that. I actually bring somebody in from out of town.

Andrew Hellmich: On purpose?

Dave Koch: Yeah, because she's really, really good.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh okay, so not because you're worried about having someone else, like move in on your clients.

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Dave Koch: You know, I do as they come up in my shoots, I will try and, you know, shoot myself doing that, and do that, but I wanted to do something that I hoped would have brought appeal. So I just did a 14 part series on building a photography website, and that's all up on YouTube. And now that that's done, I've started a new series on starting a photography business for someone just barely starting out. And I did a lot of research and spent a lot of time talking to a lot of people, including Small Business Administration, which is a US government agency to help businesses. Here's some stats, just throw something out that will make your jaw drop, in the US, a brand new business has a 40% chance of dying in the first year.

Andrew Hellmich: 40%

Dave Koch: 40% and 65% in the first five years.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Pretty sad.

Dave Koch: What do you think the chances are of a photography business failing in the first year?

Andrew Hellmich: I would stay with the 40% I think, if that's the stat.

Dave Koch: 80

Andrew Hellmich: 80?

Dave Koch: 80%.

Andrew Hellmich: Why? Why?

Dave Koch: Do you know? I asked myself the same question, because that's just..

Andrew Hellmich: I bet it's pricing.

Dave Koch: You know? I think it's more than that. I think it's, it's so many people have this.

Andrew Hellmich: Fine

Dave Koch: And, you know, and, "Oh, I take pictures, yeah", and they think it's all about taking pictures. And I think that's the biggest mistake you can make. I think you have to approach what we do as a job, you have to have the discipline to go to work every day, but you also have to build a business plan, and you have to think about, you know, "Oh, hey, Dave makes $1,200 for shooting a house. Well, where does that money go to how much time does Dave spend editing? How much does it cost to send it to Vietnam and have all those done? What does Dave's cell phone cost? What was the cost of gas? What was the, you know, people don't think about all these things that go into it, and they just think, "Oh, I can take a picture. It cost me nothing, so I'll sell it for 50 bucks". And that's it's short sighted. And I think that's why you'll see so many of those businesses fail, I mean, astronomically more than a normal business. Because I think at least with a normal business, people go into it with some preparation to run a business.

Andrew Hellmich: True, true. Whereas I think a lot of photographers go from hobby and then go into making it a business, or trying to.

Dave Koch: Yeah, and they forget the business part.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes. So true, because yeah, everyone loves the photography side with them well.

Dave Koch: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: They can make a bit of money. The YouTube channel is that the same channel I'm looking at here, which is Real Estate Photography with Dave Koch?.

Dave Koch: Yes, that is it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. I'll link to that in the show notes, and also link to your website and your Instagram so people can see those. The last thing I was going to ask you, Dave about your pricing, because and it ties into what you said about businesses failing. Did your prices start? I'm guessing they didn't start where they are now. But did you put them up? Do you feel quick enough like could you have put them up more quickly to become more successful sooner?

Dave Koch: I did a couple of things. First, I figured out what my costs were, and, you know, I tried to do it that way, but I just was not busy enough to even cover my costs when I first started out. And so I was lucky to have a wife with a full time job who supported me, and now I feel like I owe her my whole life, because I have the best job in the world. I could not be happier. I really, I mean, I like I said, I saw a moose today, you know? I mean, I do kind of go over this in the series that's coming out now too. You have to look at what your competition is, and then figure out where you fit into that competition. And you know, I do not charge what an HDR photographer would charge, either, because I'm putting much more work into it, but I've got the portfolio to back that up, but pretty much, I would raise my prices every year, every January. January used to be just deadsville for me. And so that's when I work on my website, raise my prices, do all that stuff. But you know, some people are lucky enough that they're so busy that they have to raise their prices to bring people down. And then there's another part of it, where, and again, I hope this does not sound vain, because, trust me, I worked at McDonald's. I am lucky to be who I am and where I am, so. But part of it is people expect to pay more, you know, and you have to charge to what the expectation is.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So when did you notice that in your business, because you've been going for over 10 years, like was that in year two?

Dave Koch: You know what, in the last year. The last year has just been phenomenal for me. I think I mentioned earlier, I'm getting people that are coming to me because they like the way I shoot, not just because I fill a function and will photograph a house for them. You know, the thing with the Gulf Stream today, you know, they saw my pictures online, and they were like, "You're the guy we want. Can we get you?", and I was like, I had to say, 'No'. God that killed me. Part of it too, I think, is, once you're in the business, you have a pretty good idea of what the prices should be. You know, somebody, I'm all the time being asked for something that's way beyond anything I've done before, or different from what I've done before. I did a thing for a medical company where they wanted, they had a medical unit, and they wanted a 360 degree picture, not like I'm used to doing, where the camera rotates and shows the room, but they wanted to be able to circle the object like on Amazon, like you might see with glasses or something like that. And I had to figure out how to do that. And I think I ended up paying $300 for a program that did it, and I've never used it since.

Andrew Hellmich: But you include that then in the price I'm guessing.

Dave Koch: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So again, just to clarify, could you have put your prices up earlier to get ahead more quickly, or you feel like you just followed the natural progression?

Dave Koch: I never regret anything I've done, because if it's a mistake, I learned from it, that being said, I would have lost some business, but I would have gained some others, I think.

Andrew Hellmich: But as you put your prices up, you mean.

Dave Koch: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think it's super important to be able to stand behind your prices. If you say I'm going to charge $15,000 a picture, can you stand behind that? Are you? Is there that value? You know, and I don't know about you, but I have imposter syndrome, super bad.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Well, I think we all do.

Dave Koch: Yeah, and I have a hard time saying that picture. I sold a picture last year, one picture, $1,200 and it was so hard. And to be honest, it was an accident. And I got it, and I went, "Oh, okay"..

Andrew Hellmich: Of what? Of what? What was the photo of?

Dave Koch: I'll send it to you. It's beautiful. It is a twilight and I did have to do a lot of work to it. It was a building still under construction, and I had to put in the landscaping and a lot of other stuff.

Andrew Hellmich: We'll include that in the show notes. That'd be amazing.

Dave Koch: Yeah, or put it right over my face. Right now, nobody wants to work with me, but you know, I just think, if you can pitch a customer and say, "I charge this", and there's confidence in your voice, you're going to get it. And so your pricing has to be something that you feel comfortable and safe with. If you don't feel that you're at that level yet, even if you are, if you can't sell it, you're not going to get it. So I think we all deep inside know what our value is, or close to what our value is, and we know roughly what we should be charging. So you maybe need a friend to come over and slap you and say, "No, you're charging too much or something". But you know where you should come down, I think, on pricing.

Andrew Hellmich: I thought it'd be the opposite. I thought you're gonna need the friend to slap you and say you need to be more expensive, not that you're charging too much.

Dave Koch: Yes, yeah, I think that's, you know, I still don't know if I'm charging the right amount.

Andrew Hellmich: Because you have a network of other real estate buddies, by the sound of it, so you guys must compare pricing. e

Dave Koch: Yeah, but Salt Lake is not the same as Portland, is not the same as Twin Falls, which is not the same as Brisbane.

Andrew Hellmich: True.

Dave Koch: Did I say that right?

Andrew Hellmich: You did.

Dave Koch: But you know, if I could give one more advice to photographers out there, that is to build a network of people that do what you do in other cities. They're called mastermind groups, yes. And you know, you get six or eight people from all over and you know, we text, I'm in four of them, and we text all of them every day, but we help each other out, because, again, it's a zero sum game. If I help you, we're all better for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. I love that. And I know that there's, I know, personally, there's quite a few PhotobizX members that network with each other across countries, across cities, and it's fantastic.

Dave Koch: There's nothing better.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. Dave. Look, that's a great place to leave this. It's been so good to talk to you, and I can honestly say it's been it's such a pleasure to see someone that loves what they do so much. I mean, you lit up. You got excited telling your stories, and I can hear how passionate you are about the new part of the business, the commercial side, and it sounds like you really are living the dream. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing what you have.

Dave Koch: I'm blessed to do what I do. I really am, and I think we all need to remember that, you know, there are people who flip burgers and we take pictures. What could be better?

Andrew Hellmich: Pretty good, isn't it?

Dave Koch: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Pretty good.

Dave Koch: It's awesome.

The post 616: Dave Koch – Shoot Less, Earn More: A Smarter Way to Do Real Estate Photography appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.