Alex and Ellis sit down with Ryan Jones, founder of Flighty and 13-year top indie developer, to talk about what it actually takes to build a beloved app in the age of AI. They talk about Apple's big WWDC announcements, the new Siri, and why every vibe coder who tries to clone Flighty eventually gives up. They also break a scoop about Flighty's upcoming AI launch, get into whether craft and design still matter when anyone can build an app, and discuss whether Apple is falling dangerously behind on AI or not.

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ACCESS is produced in partnership with the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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