Andrew Lands on a Single POV—and Must Choose an Ending
Jennie Nash coaches podcast producer Andrew Parella through the third “hot seat” session of his Blueprint revision, where he gains clarity that his protagonist should be the sole point-of-view character, with other perspectives delivered through discovered diaries, letters, and papers from her mother Mina and her uncle Van Helsing.
After completing a stronger Inside Outline, Andrew understands that each scene’s “point” must be expressed through his protagonist’s meaning-making, which makes the story feel more alive but reveals key issues: an ending that doesn’t yet pay off and several underused setups.
Jennie urges Andrew to leverage Mina’s influence earlier, make vampires more present in the world, and more. They focus on raising stakes, making the “all is lost” moment harder, and forcing a decisive, morally resonant ending beyond simply solving the murders.
Visit Andrew’s website: https://www.andrewparrella.com
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Need to play catch-up?
Check out Andrew’s first hot seat coaching session with Jennie:
Check out Andrew’s second hot seat coaching session with Jennie:
Transcript
Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jenny Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real writing challenge in real time.
Jennie: Today I am joined again by Andrew Perella, who is the podcast producer stepping out from Behind the Mic, and this is the third time we’ve been talking about his blueprint revision. So if you haven’t heard episodes. One and two focused on this. You should definitely go catch up on them. I’ll link to those in the show notes and where we left Andrew, I feel like this is a, um, a soap opera or something.
Jennie: Um. You were going to go off and do some exploration in order to decide on your point of view, uh, narrator, [00:01:00] and you were debating lots, lots of different ideas. So let’s just start by asking how that went.
Andrew: Uh, it went well. I mean, it was, uh, it was really productive too. Go through the exercise that you played, that you, uh, that you, uh, put to me.
Andrew: So the, uh, you had left it to. So to help me identify which POVs were gonna be most important to take the three characters that I had been identifying and kind of draw out an, an outline for each of them. I didn’t do a full inside out, inside outline for, for each character. I just kinda did. Sure, sure. A bunch of bullets.
Andrew: Here’s the, here’s the story through this person’s, uh, through this person’s perspective, through this person’s perspective. And as I did that it became very clear that two of the characters, while very important to the story, I think will ultimately Billy Ancillary and the primary. Protagonist Abriana, I think [00:02:00] is going to be, uh, the sole POV for the book.
Andrew: Um, so that was kind of exciting to. Get some clarity on that. And now that I know that a lot of other things come in, come into focus a little bit, it’s like, okay, I can spend a little bit less time, you know, developing this scene. That’s something we could do with a letter or a diary entry that she reads or some, or something to that effect.
Andrew: And so, as I was listening back to our last session, I was thinking about, you had talked about other devices, um, that we can use to incorporate. Other POVs. Um, and so I think there can be diaries and letters and papers from, um, from the other, from the other characters. A Brianna’s mother, Mina, and uh, and uh, uh, van Helsing, her uncle, her, um.
Andrew: And I think that she can discover these papers, these letters, these diaries over the course, uh, [00:03:00] of the story to learn more information, to help her clear certain hurdles, um, that will, uh, that will present themselves to her. Um,
Jennie: so, um, I was really curious because. In my mind, I thought one of the people you were considering as the narrator of the story was a Adrianna’s brother.
Jennie: And so when I went to review your notes, you know, you’d sketched out these, uh, mini, mini outlines for what, what the scenes or the, you know, story would look like from that. And, and it wasn’t the brother, so that was interesting to me. It was like, okay, so you really were considering a lot of different.
Jennie: Characters to tell the story. And the other thing that struck me was, well, I could immediately tell which one had the most heat. That’s the best way I can describe it. Right? Yeah. It’s like there’s an energy or a a, a vibrancy [00:04:00] or the other ones were good, but there was a flatness to them. Did Is that what you felt?
Andrew: Yeah, I felt like. There wasn’t enough there it felt like. It felt like there were other stories that I could create that I could invent for these characters, but they were less. Were less relevant to my protagonist.
Jennie: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew: And so I felt like that helped me kinda, kinda focus in on her a little bit.
Jennie: The other thing that struck me was, um, Mina, who’s a Brianna’s mom.
Jennie: Um, hers was really, it felt really whole to me. It, it was like, oh, she’s got a whole story, a whole backstory. Well, it would be a backstory now, um, but. You know, she felt like a really 3D character with Okay. A a lot of, um, like I liked her and I was interested in her and I could [00:05:00] see a lot of places where her story would intersect with Aub Brianna’s that you could use.
Jennie: So it felt to me like that was a really useful exercise for you to do. Is that where you landed?
Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah, no, it really helped me explore who these characters are, because these characters are gonna be, as I say, integral to the protagonist, integral to the story and to the novel, but they’re just not going to be carrying the weight of, of, of primary POV.
Andrew: And so I think it, but it was really helpful to flesh those out, flesh those characters out a little bit more. And I did have a lot of fun. Building out Mina’s timeline, Mina’s outline as it related to the, to the primary events of the novel. So that, so that was, that was a lot of fun. And I’m, I, I think, I think the outlines might have betrayed the fact that I’m still trying to figure out how Van Helsing, what Van Sing’s relation.
Andrew: Is to the events of the story.
Jennie: Yeah, maybe that, because that one [00:06:00] definitely felt the, the most flat of all of them. Which is interesting because he’s a, an existing character and an existing story in a way. So he’s kind of already been fleshed out a bit. But, um, so it sounded when you reported. The outcome to me, it sounded like you were quite sure that there was no more debate.
Jennie: You really felt like this is it, is that true? Are
Andrew: you, I am sure there is no more debate this week, uh, about that.
Jennie: I was gonna say
Andrew: that question.
Jennie: Um, okay. So what you did next was, the next bit of homework was. If you can land on that to flesh out the whole inside outline, which you did. Um, and I was really struck Andrew by how different this was from your first iteration were.
Jennie: Do you feel that?
Andrew: Yes, yes. Um, and I think part of that is I, I [00:07:00] had an incomplete understanding of. Of the inside outline when I was first rolling through it, and I, I was, I was struggling a little bit, but I also have a much better idea of what the story is now than I did a couple weeks ago when I did, when I, when I, when I wrote that initial, uh, inside outline.
Andrew: So
Jennie: what did you not understand about it? I’m curious.
Andrew: I think, I think some of, like some of the notes you and KJ gave me after that first one kind of, uh, were about the point. So there’s the, there’s the, the, the, the scene or the plot and what is the point of this scene or plot. And I, I had difficulty, I think, expressing what the, what the importance of these, of these plot moments were.
Andrew: Um, and I think it was a note that KJ gave me. It’s like, try, try writing the point of the plot. Through the eyes of your protagonist, how does this affect me as the protagonist? How, how [00:08:00] does this affect me? And so I was looking at kind of like, so I think I had a, a more full outline in that regard because I did try and.
Andrew: Internalized for Abriana what these po plot points meant for her and how they would change or affect the decision she made next.
Jennie: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that. Um, because what a lot of people get wrong is they think the point is another chance to explain why they’re writing that scene, why they, the author, um, are writing that scene and it the point.
Jennie: Of it is what meaning is this character making of what they’re experiencing in the plot. So, um, you’re having understood that and understood your story. When I say it was so different, the, I mean, this is the progression. The, the first iteration was, okay, this is an interesting plot. These are interesting characters, but they’re not.
Jennie: They’re not, there’s no [00:09:00] there, there in a way. Right. And this one I read and I, I was like, oh, there’s, you know, this is good. You’re starting to, to really weave, um, uh, a tail. And, um, it feels weighty. And I was really excited. It felt. Alive to me. Is that, did you have that sense?
Andrew: I, I’m really glad to hear you say that.
Andrew: ‘cause Yeah, it’s feeling much more alive to me as well. And seeing, and seeing all of these points, seeing, seeing this outline put together, it’s like, oh, this isn’t, this isn’t a gimmick anymore. This isn’t just an idea. This is a real thing that I can, I can turn into a novel that I can turn into a manuscript.
Andrew: So, yeah. Yeah. It’s feeling, it’s feeling much more real now.
Jennie: So there’s two things that I saw in reading it through, and these are the type of things that will be revealed when you have something solid. One is the ending isn’t [00:10:00] paying off yet, and you know that like you, you said, you know. Some ending scene here or something, you know?
Jennie: Yeah. Ending tk. Yeah. And then, um, so that, that ending isn’t landing. And then, um, there’s a under utilization. Of the character setup that you, you’ve, you’ve set something up that you’re then not using, you’re not leveraging, and there’s three places where that’s happening. So I wanna talk about those three places and then we’ll talk about the ending.
Jennie: ‘cause those three places are going to inform your ending. Um, so the first one is in fact the mom. Aub Brianna’s mom. Mm-hmm. So now that we know her whole backstory and her unde deadness and, um, that she may in fact be manipulating events in [00:11:00] real time, uh, for Aubrianna in story time, um. She’s got strong opinions, she’s got enemies, she’s got people defending her, she’s got secrets.
Jennie: Like she’s got a whole deal going on, and it feels as though she only really enters the story very, very late and, and at a moment when Mina really needs her to enter the story. So it feels a little under earned when that hap when that happens. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense?
Andrew: Yeah. I agree. Yeah.
Jennie: What’s interesting to me is it’s, it’s all there.
Jennie: You have everything there to use. So now it’s just a question of looking at your outline and saying, okay, where earlier can this mom, she’s not gonna appear, but can she have influence? Can she have impact? Even just Mina’s relationship with her absence is not there.
Outro: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: And it [00:12:00] strikes me well, I’ll let you respond.
Andrew: Um, no, I was noticing that like, Mina wasn’t terribly present in, in the outline that I, that I drafted. There were just a couple of scenes that, uh, included or, um, alluded to her. Um, before, before the end and, and to really build that relationship up, I’m like, I need to find other places, as you say, to, to bring her in, to have abriana reflect on her.
Andrew: Maybe she finds, maybe she finds the diary earlier in, in the story and learns a little bit more about her over the course of the story. So I think, I think that relationship, um, um, needs to be. Be a little bit more developed, as you say. Yeah.
Jennie: Yeah. And, and does Mina Pine for her? She’s not allowed to speak of her in her father’s house.
Jennie: Um, but it, the thing that struck me particularly was you have this [00:13:00] fantastic new place, at least new to me, um, to open the story, which is Van ING’s funeral. Do I have that right? Yeah.
Andrew: Yes.
Jennie: Um, so this, the book opens with this young woman protagonist going to this funeral of someone who she admired and who understood her and who, um, wanted for her, what she wanted for herself.
Jennie: So it’s, it’s a really emotional moment. For her, and it strikes me that she would be thinking about her dead mother at a funeral. Yeah. Right. Especially a funeral of this guy
Outro: mm-hmm.
Jennie: Who played a role in her mother’s life and death.
Andrew: Yep.
Jennie: Um, and it, so it’s, when I say underutilized and everything’s already there, it’s like you’ve got, you’ve got the opportunity.
Jennie: Right. So Right to let us, that’s a [00:14:00] moment we can. Feel Mina’s absence, we can feel a Brianna’s response to that absence. Um, maybe the impact of the, the mom and the situation on her. Mm-hmm. Um, that’s just one example.
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: Um. That was kind of really, uh, neon lights for me. Um, and obviously the inside outline is three sentences about a scene, right?
Jennie: It’s not the whole scene. Right. But, um, uh, so do you, do you see. How, what you could do there if you did a pass through the inside outline, just thinking, how can I better use Mina?
Andrew: Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, uh, I think you’re spot on there. ‘cause I really wanna, I really wanna open the, the book with, with a, with the funeral.
Andrew: Um, and of course that would bring up. Thoughts, um, of, of, of a deceased [00:15:00] parent to, to anyone. Um, so yeah, I think there’s a lot, a lot to be had there. And maybe there’s even, maybe she even like catches sight of a mysterious, uh, a mysterious veiled woman at the back of the church who is also there to, uh, pay her respects and, you know, maybe.
Andrew: Maybe this mysterious, this mysterious figure appears in other places over the course of, uh, over the course of the events, um, and ca and kind of catches, uh, a adrianna’s attention. I think there are, there are a lot of ways to, to, to, to, to manage that.
Jennie: Yeah. Or even just a feeling that something is there.
Jennie: That you can’t see.
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: Um, you know, uh, that’s a, well, we’ll get to the connection to that other piece in a minute. But the, um, the, the bigger point here is the, the role of anything in a story, an antagonist, a, a character, a situation is [00:16:00] to put pressure on the protagonist. For her to make choices she either doesn’t wanna make or can’t make, right?
Jennie: Like stories about choice. So what makes the choice harder? What makes it, um, more potent for that person? What raises the stakes on that choice? So when I say do a pass through the inside outline, just thinking about Mina, it’s like, how can you use Mina to pressure, uh, aubriana and, and pressure can be. My mother would be so disappointed in me, or mm-hmm.
Jennie: I, I can’t let my mother down again. Or, um, I’m so pissed she’s not here that I’m gonna do this reckless thing. Like, there’s lots of ways that that can manifest. Um, it doesn’t have pressure to do the right thing. It can be oppositional pressure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, she’s got, it can’t just be. [00:17:00] The way you have it set up, I think you would be really missing an opportunity if you didn’t use that more.
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: Um, so that’s super connected to the second I said there were three kind of underutilized things and the second is the vampires. So you’ve made a decision about do they exist, um, and. They appear now almost nowhere in the story.
Andrew: Yeah, I think only, only in a couple of points. Um,
Jennie: yeah. Um, and, and by appear, I don’t mean literally, here are the vampires.
Jennie: It, it could be at the suffragette meeting, they’re arguing about the vampires or there’s, um, you know, uh, newspaper article everybody’s talking about, or there’s gonna be a talk. That they have to, you know, uh, disperse early ‘cause there’s gonna be a talk about the vampires [00:18:00] or, you know, like mm-hmm. Just a pres, the presence or the sense of them.
Jennie: What are people doing saying, worried about, um, their, that needs to be amped up.
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: And when I say that needs to be amped up, that’s not, that’s not my opinion about your story. It’s the story about vampires. Yes. So, uh, I mean actually it’s not really a story about vampires. I that’s not true. It’s not, but it’s a story with vampires.
Jennie: So therefore, story of
vampires.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Jennie: We gotta have the vampires, right?
Andrew: Yes. It’s a primary component of the story. Um, and, and there needs to be more of it. And I, and like, I think. There are a lot of opportunities, as you say, sitting down at breakfast and opening the newspaper. There, there could be articles about, about vampires in the suffragette meetings, there’ll be things about, there’ll be talk about vampires in, in class among her classmates.
Andrew: Um, there’ll be, there’ll be gossiping, uh, there’ll be [00:19:00] gossip about vampires, um, and the merits of this community. Um, and so I think, yes, there are a lot of ways that we, I can bring, I can make the vampires more present, um, and. The nuanced conversation happening around the community. Um. To, to, to kind of draw, draw some, and, and help draw some parallels to, to, to modern events as well.
Jennie: Well, and that’s why I say underutilized. Yeah. That’s what these topics are because there is such richness there and that your villain is, um, using fear of one to, um, terrorize another. Mm-hmm. Fear of one group to terrorize another group. He, he’s playing these two, um. Um, misunderstood or, um, marginalized groups against each other.
Jennie: Mm-hmm. So it, it feels like it’s right. Should be right there, but it’s, yeah, but it’s not.
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: And then s [00:20:00] same topic. Um, my deeper understanding of Mina, which I got through the, your test outline showed me that the undead are, um, have a agency in this world that I was not. I understood better, and so it made me wonder, are there other vampires doing things, appearing trying to influence?
Jennie: Are they rising up in any way? Are any of the murdered people connected? Are there rumors? Are there, you know, did any other person around say my. Uh, I don’t know. Mother was a vampire too, or like, I dunno, like is it, is Mina’s role as an intermediary? I mean, she’s in a special situation, but I was just trying to like, is there a hierarchy [00:21:00] of impact that different vampire beings can make?
Jennie: Am I, am I asking that?
Andrew: Yeah, no, I, I hear what, I hear what you’re saying and you’re, you’re right. I mean, I have been thinking about, um, vampires within the suffragette movement, you know, helping the cause, um. I’ve been playing with the idea of whether, whether there should be a vampire in the school that she’s attending as well, and maybe she, maybe that vampire is trying to keep their identity, her identity hidden.
Andrew: Um, but I like your idea about like, how are the victims related to. Vampires. I think I’ve, I think I’ve been, I’ve taken pains to relate them all to the suffragette movement.
Jennie: Yeah.
Andrew: But I think what would make them really appetizing victims for the murderer [00:22:00] would be for them to have some relation to vampires as well.
Jennie: Right. And it doesn’t have to be so on the nose, like I just said, oh, I’m my mother too. It could be,
Outro: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jennie: Oh, my, my father’s obsessed with them, or, um, right. My father says, don’t talk about them, or, you know. Mm-hmm. Relationship to the idea of them. That’s something I wanna reflect back to, that I noticed that I thought was really cool.
Jennie: And I don’t know how intentional you were about this, but you’ve got this. Medical school, a Brianna’s going to this school for women and the suffragette movement. And there’s an overlap of those two communities. So a lot of the suffragettes are connected to the medical world. And you have a lot of the young women in [00:23:00] medical spaces.
Jennie: So there’s, there’s the asylum. There’s, it’s the places people are having internships or being hired to be the receptionist or right, like the people are, which makes total sense. If you have a medical school for women and you’re trying to get them out into the world, they’re gonna be in those roles at all these different spaces and they’re, that was what was interesting to me is that you have a, um, very organic.
Jennie: Reason why these young women are brushing up against vampire spaces,
Andrew: and I don’t know how intentional that was, but I, I needed them to brush up against the murderer.
Jennie: And, and he’s in vampire spaces
Andrew: and he’s in vampire and medical spaces.
Jennie: Yes.
Andrew: And so that, that was my primary rationale, but, um, uh, but [00:24:00] I I, I, I like what you’re saying as well.
Andrew: Um,
Jennie: I just noticed it, and it also occurred to me that Aubriana could notice it,
Andrew: that the victims have, uh, are, are showing up in vampire spaces.
Jennie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because the way that you have it right now. I actually didn’t write this in my notes, it’s just coming to me while we’re talking. Mm-hmm. Um, her solving of this crime is a little bit, um, circumstantial and physical.
Jennie: Yeah. She’s in the right place or she puts herself in the right place, or she gets an object or she sees. See something. Mm-hmm. But I think that there could also be two other drivers of her being the one to solve the problem, uh, which would be intellectual. She’s putting things together that other people are not.
Jennie: Yeah. Putting together. And [00:25:00] you, you have her as she’s the top student in this class who’s failing now because she’s so obsessed with this. So she could be putting her intellect. It that would be really natural, but also this other sense connected to her mother, this six sixth sense, if you will, you know, understanding of other worlds, other creatures, other forces that could inform her, um, understanding of the crimes as well.
Jennie: So. Now that I’m saying this out loud, I feel like this is a really important part of, um, making the, you know, we want the person to solve this crime to be uniquely qualified to solve this crime. Mm-hmm. So, not to, well, anyone in her position would’ve figured it out. Um, it’s because of her background, ‘cause of her connection to her mom, ‘cause of her dad and [00:26:00] her brother, you know, because of her aptitudes, you know, because of all these things she solves.
Jennie: Yeah, the crime. Um, and so that goes back to both her connection to, well, well, amplifying the mother in the story and amplifying the vampires in the story. Um, so, and that actually goes to then one of my other points, and I’m jumping over. Well, I’ll jump over. Okay. So the, the last underutilized. Element is the brother.
Jennie: So the brother got seriously demoted from possibly narrating the whole story to sort of being this loser, like spineless, you know, whatever. Which I love because it’s just such a great con. He’s like, oh no, don’t, don’t upset father. And, and you know, she is like, get outta my way. Like, it’s [00:27:00] great. It’s a great um, contrast.
Jennie: But I feel like you’ve, you’ve got him positioned to do something really stupid, um, right. Or to do something really insensitive. Um, he can, at the moment, he just reacts, he could make a choice that really impacts her, that really changes the story.
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: Like, does he stand? With Adrianna or their father when it really counts.
Jennie: Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s kind of the choice. Yeah. That he’s, you’ve got him, and so I feel like, again, underutilized, where can the brother really throw a wrench into what a adrianna’s trying to do for herself, where he maybe thinks he’s helping, or either that, or he is unable to rise to the occasion and therefore hurts her, but mm-hmm.
Jennie: There gonna be a million ways to do that. But you’ve [00:28:00] got, so just like with the mother and the vampires or the brother, you’ve got a set up that you could have a huge payoff from that you, that you’ve sort of just left there. Do you see that?
Andrew: Yes. Yeah. No, absolutely. Quince definitely took a back seat from when we were last, when we were last discussing him.
Andrew: Um. Yeah. But I feel like there there is more. He can take more weight. He, there is much more, much more we I could do with him. Um, and like I think, I think I definitely see him as letting Aubrianna down at some point and like siding with their father at it at some crucial point instead of with her. Um, I also see him being kind of ultimately the collateral damage.
Andrew: From the final decision that Aubriana makes, um, if she chooses to be with her mother at the end, she, [00:29:00] um, is, uh, then choosing, um, to never have contact with her father who has made that ultimatum clear. And Quince is not ready to make that decision. And so. You know, kind of falls in line with, with his, with his father.
Andrew: With their father. So I see, I see him playing at this point, he’s playing a small role, but I think he could play a larger role. Um, yeah, yeah. As you say, presenting challenges or trying to help, but actually, actually making things worse or something like that.
Jennie: So when you go back through the inside outline.
Jennie: So we’re just continuing to tighten the screws and shore up all the holes. Mm-hmm. So for those listening who may be revising their own outlines or their books, um. You wanna think, what do I, what do I have that I’m not using? What thread do I, well, maybe that’s not the right metaphor. It’s like, what seed did I plant that I didn’t harvest?
Jennie: Right? Like, what, [00:30:00] what do I have here? What opportunities for tension? Opportunities for, again, pressure on the protagonist, opportunities to make things bad for them, um, and. You know, that, that sense of her, like she doesn’t really suffer very much in this story. Mm-hmm. She doesn’t really, um, lose a lot. Um, and that brings me now finally to, um, the ending.
Jennie: So the, the question is, how do you. How do you land on an ending? Um, and, and oftentimes the work that you did before this, the, the sense of, well, where does the story start and where does this end that bookend sense of we’re, we’re trying to, it’s solve a, a murder in this story, but more than that, we’re trying to, there’s a young woman who’s going through a massive [00:31:00] transformation and becoming something that, um.
Jennie: She desperately wants to be that everything is keeping her from being. But the choice that you have right now, the story is leading to is to be with her mom or not. And in some ways, that’s a perfect bookend with a story that starts with a funeral. The choice to basically. Live or die, right?
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: But it, um, it struck me as that that’s not the story you’re writing, that that’s, that’s never been the story you’re writing.
Jennie: She’s, it’s not a story about, like, this could easily, you could just easily decide to make this a story about a young woman who. The absence of the mom is so profound in their life that they can’t function or, [00:32:00] um, you know, uh, live or love or all the things that one would want to do in life. Um, you know, sort of a yearning to be gone, or a yearning to be with that absent person.
Jennie: This could be that story, um, where mm-hmm. You know, it starts with this funeral and maybe there’s a, a yearning there. Like, everybody I love is dead. Everybody who got me is dead. The only way that I’m gonna be with the people who understand me is, is also to to die. You know, like, it, it really obviously would change the texture and shape and everything, the story.
Jennie: And I know that’s not the story you wanna write ‘cause it’s. Nothing about your why or your point or, right. So when you’re struggling with the ending, I always go back to those things. To the point. Yeah. And, and re reread them. Why are you doing this? Mm-hmm. What do you wanna say? Why does this matter to you?
Jennie: [00:33:00] Mm-hmm. And, you know, it really is a question about, um. Uh, a monster is a person who doesn’t change when the times change or when change is the right thing to do. Um, so it feels to me like the ending still needs to be the choice of who’s, who becomes a monster or right. Or, um, is that the question?
Jennie: She’s not in danger of becoming a monster, is she? She’s
Andrew: not, I don’t think. Not as, not as the, the story currently stands, but obviously she, she, she goes through change and she can accept or resist that change. Um, obviously to do the change takes, requires a lot of work.
Jennie: But [00:34:00] I think you would be short changing what you’ve set up.
Jennie: If the change is simply, I wanna be a doctor. Yeah. And Yay, I became a doctor. Doctor and I got the bad guy. Mm-hmm. Right. There’s something thin about that. Yeah. Because at the root of your story are some moral choices,
Andrew: right.
Jennie: That other people are not making.
Andrew: Right.
Jennie: Uh, so it feels like something bigger has to be at risk for her.
Jennie: So I wanna become a doctor, is the plot level, you know, and my dad doesn’t want to, and, and now all these things are preventing me from doing well in school. And, um, you know, all of that, the. The real story point, the emotional point, the, the thing we’re gonna read [00:35:00] for is, uh, you know, that, um, that moral choice,
Andrew: right?
Jennie: What am I gonna risk to become the thing that I want? You know what?
Andrew: Yeah,
Jennie: what, what, um, what do I lose if I become the thing I want?
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: And, and you could lose, um, people you love, you could lose. Um, I mean, there’s so many things that you could lose. You could lose your integrity. You could lose, um, your, uh, innocence.
Jennie: You could lose. Um, but I think that, that it shouldn’t be quite so easy for her. Mm-hmm.
Jennie: Does that, does that resonate with you?
Andrew: Yeah, no, I absolutely hear what you’re saying. I absolutely hear what you’re saying. Uh, and as you, as you’re speaking, I’m trying to think through what some of her other motivations are. And while [00:36:00] yes, she’s motivated to become a doctor, she’s also just motivated to be an independent woman
Jennie: independent.
Jennie: So what does that, that’s, what does that mean?
Andrew: I think in her world it means independent of. The choices the men around her are making for her on her behalf and being able to, uh, and being able to embrace her full agency.
Jennie: So there’s a moment in this story when she’s lost complete agency. She’s literally locked up.
Jennie: She can’t. She cannot do anything.
Outro: Yeah.
Jennie: Um, and it, and it struck me in that moment. You gave her a super easy out. Did you notice that?
Andrew: I, yeah, I think, I think, I think it was a fairly, a fairly easy out, um, I don’t remember exactly what it was.
Jennie: Yeah. She contacts her brother and her brother.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s right.
Jennie: Whatever. And it’s like, okay. But that struck me as the [00:37:00] moment, the all is lost moment. You know? Like, okay, literally this is a young woman who seeks to be independent and have agency, and she’s, yes, her actions have caused her to be in a place where she’s locked, locked up. She cannot leave, she cannot do anything.
Jennie: She can’t use her brain. Well, she can use her brain. She can’t. Well, like I was saying before, she can’t put herself in the physical place to solve the. The murders were to now protect herself. So what does she have left? She has her intellect and that other sense. Spiritual, if you, whatever. I’m just calling it spiritual as shorthand.
Jennie: Sure. Connection to what, what we can’t, yeah. See or know.
Outro: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: Um, and what hap what is, what happens in that moment. That’s really, I think that’s where you get your ending.
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: Because
Andrew: I, I feel like that, yeah, you put your finger out. That is a pivotal scene. Where she’s at her lowest point. And how does she get, and you’re right, I I, I took the easy [00:38:00] way out there.
Andrew: I think there needs to be a more difficult way for her to get herself out of there or find some other form of assistance to help her, to help her out of that. And I don’t know what that is yet.
Jennie: Yeah. And it, it’s a really typical thing that happens, which is. You created this character and you love her and you don’t want harm to come to her.
Jennie: Yeah. And you don’t, you want her to get everything that she wants, you know, you’re fighting for her as you create her. Yeah. But she’s gotta suffer. Mm-hmm. Um, and the, and the more that suffering resonates with, you know, what is at stake here, um, the better. The better it’s gonna be the be the bigger pay emotional payoff it’s gonna be for the reader because the reader, you know, is thinking I too am in a certain [00:39:00] cage.
Jennie: You know, I too, uh, you know, am making certain decisions. And if I, if I make these choices and lose these things, like, I don’t know if I can tolerate that, um, or I’ve been tolerating that my whole life. What would it mean to tolerate. Less or um. Right. Right. You know, so if that’s the place where you really, the resonance of your story has to come is what, what is she gonna give up or lose or risk to get what she wants?
Jennie: Mm-hmm. And, and if she, if that trade off happens. What sort of peace or not peace does she, does she land in? Mm-hmm. Um, right. So, yeah. Um, you have the plot of level of this story really in good shape. I know. We can make it [00:40:00] much better. The twists can get twist. Sure. And, uh, cl more, is cleverer a word? Maybe clever.
Jennie: Like, you know, they’re a little crude right now. Yeah. Um, so they can get, when I being twister, just like, Ooh, I didn’t see that coming. Or, you know, um, and right. Right now it’s little Mina swoops in at the right minute. Mm-hmm. The brother swoops in at the right minute. So when you go back through. So here’s the work.
Jennie: Yeah. Ask yourself, how can I use the mother more? How can I use the brother more to put pressure on the protagonist?
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: To make her choice harder, not easier. Um, and how can I use the vampire existence of the vampires and who believes in them? Who’s fighting for them? Who, who gets them? Who doesn’t?
Jennie: What does Mina’s relationship to? To those three [00:41:00] entities?
Andrew: Yep.
Jennie: And then given all that, how can I make the ending be a choice for what the story’s really about and what I really care to convey, and not just a resolution of the murders?
Andrew: Yep. That makes sense.
Jennie: Um,
Andrew: just making some notes
Jennie: here. There’s so many cheesy ways this story could end.
Andrew: Yeah. And obvi. Yeah. I obviously wanna avoid all of those, but, um, yeah.
Jennie: So these are, but you might have to, you might have to run through a bunch of cheesy endings Yeah. And reject them. And like, and you know, that’s not a bad exercise to do. Like, okay. Cheesy ending. What number one? You know, she graduates at the top of her class.
Jennie: She finds the murderer, um, you know, some handsome, smart, you know, man who thinks she’s awesome, swoops in and marries her instead of her father’s [00:42:00] clerk. Like
Andrew: Right.
Jennie: You know, all the things. Yeah. And. She has a portal in her house to connect with her mother all the time. You know, like you could like name every cheesy ending possible and but then de define why that wouldn’t be satisfying.
Jennie: Right. Or
Outro: Yeah.
Jennie: Why you would never
Outro: mm-hmm.
Jennie: That’s not a bad way to, to land on an ending. Yeah. Um, ‘cause the sat
Andrew: iden identify what? I don’t want to help me identify what I do want.
Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. And, and to think about this is also where genre comes into it. What is the expectation, right, of a story like this?
Jennie: What do you want the reader to feel mm-hmm. At the end? And, um, you know, if you want the reader to feel inspired and uplifted, like, I’m not, I’m just making that up. That doesn’t necessarily mean the ending is. Uplifting. Right. You know, [00:43:00] it, it has to do with the, the choices that character makes. So.
Outro: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: I mean, it’s a big question of how, of how, how does it end?
Jennie: Um, you might, you may, you may or may not get there this time, but
Andrew: mm-hmm.
Jennie: Um, I would force yourself
Outro: Yeah.
Jennie: To put an ending on the outline, even if you don’t like it, even if you know it’s not right. So that, um. You can see the ripples through the whole thing and And that’ll help you make that decision like, yeah, no, that can’t be the ending.
Jennie: ‘cause then this cool thing I have set up comes to nothing or Right. What’s the point of having her had to struggle with this thing if she just gets it at the end?
Andrew: Mm-hmm. Yep. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Jennie: So what I love about where you are right now is you’ve answered. All the fundamental questions about [00:44:00] the the murder plot.
Andrew: Right?
Jennie: You know, we, we know who the antagonist is. We know his motivations, we know his, what he does. We know his mo, we know, you know, all of those things. Um, we understand. The physical, like I feel like you’ve done a really good job of almost blocking like a play, like blocking on a stage. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, like, okay, this woman and I could really feel that like she left her purse and then the thing, you know, like you’ve got the who’s standing where, when all of that’s in place.
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: So now it’s really, um, um. Tightening these threads. Mm-hmm. Putting the pressure on her. Mm-hmm. So that there’s a gut wrenching choice at the end about, uh, the moral center of, of the story. Yep. [00:45:00] That’s, that’s what the work is. Easy.
Andrew: Piece of cake. Piece of cake. I’ll have it on your desk tomorrow morning. Oh my
Jennie: gosh. Um, I mean, another thing that I would suggest is. Going to look at the books you love.
Andrew: Mm.
Jennie: And just read through the endings, you know, like books, you know well and love and mm-hmm. Read through the endings and remind yourself why, why was the emotional payoff so big there?
Jennie: Why did I love that book? Why did I, you know, just to marinate in, in the, um, in a good ending, how a good ending plays. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, it’ll be fun.
Andrew: Can I have more than three pages for my next insight? My next version of the outline?
Jennie: Um, I thought you were gonna say, can I have more than three weeks? Um, [00:46:00] so I think the way we have it set up, you’ve got a, a little more than three weeks for this work. Okay. Um, to, to really dig in and do this work. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna go with, um. No. No.
Andrew: Oh. Oh, man. That’s cruel. That is
Jennie: cruel,
Andrew: Diddy. I know,
Jennie: I know.
Jennie: And the reason that I’m gonna go with no is that you don’t have your ending yet. And what’s the point of my saying? Yeah, Andrew, write nine pages. In fact, make your, make your outline. You know, go to 30 pages. Why don’t you just because this, you haven’t solved. Solved it.
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: But here’s, here’s what I’m gonna say.
Jennie: Okay? If you can email me and say, this is where I have all the power, I have so much power. If you can email me and say, this is the ending. [00:47:00]
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: Then I will give you permission mission to, and it doesn’t actually even matter what it is. You just have to choose, choose something, because it could change, but
Andrew: yeah.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.
Jennie: Something that you feel like obscene in a point. So the point is why it matters to Abriana.
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: That feels like a logical, solid ending then. You could take it, I would say up to 10 pages and you’re gonna love it. It’s gonna be so fun. It’s such a fun moment. You feel so free. You’re like, wait, look, now I can put in all this stuff.
Jennie: Um, everybody asks the same question, it’s hilarious. Um, but the point I’ll just for our listeners, the point of this particular tool is to keep it small so you can solve the big building block problems. Before you bake them into something bigger, because [00:48:00] just going bigger with the problems baked in doesn’t solve the problems.
Jennie: Having more room to figure out your ending doesn’t help you figure out your ending. ‘cause the work you have to do is in your brain and your heart. It’s not actually on the page. So it’s really a decision you have to make and the failure of many, um, many stories is that the writer didn’t, no, they didn’t decide, they didn’t make a choice.
Jennie: They didn’t want their character to suffer. They didn’t wanna, um, put that point so boldly there that some people would despise them for it. Or argue with them or throw the book across the room. Like they don’t wanna, that’s the whole write big thing. They don’t mm-hmm. The writer doesn’t wanna choose. And so therefore they don’t allow their character to choose.
Jennie: And, and we don’t wanna choose [00:49:00] because it’s, it’s actually really hard that, and that’s the reason why we love. Novels because they give us the experience of what it would be like to be so decisive in what we believe or think or know or value that we live our lives with that kind of integrity or you know, we don’t have to.
Jennie: It’s like we get to sit in an armchair and watch other people suffer to learn about the world and ourselves, and we don’t have to actually really do it. And, and then when it comes down in our lives to our actually really doing it, we realize how very difficult it is to, to choose and to sacrifice. And so that the work is, that’s why I say it’s in your head and your heart.
Jennie: It’s, it’s not, um, it’s not just, it’s not the plot. It’s not strategic, it’s not intellectual. It’s really, it’s really what do I, what do I believe? Um. [00:50:00] How, how, how far am I willing to go to stand by this point that I’ve said matters so much to me. So, um, you could send me that email this afternoon. You could send it to me in two days.
Jennie: You’ll not
be
Andrew: ready this afternoon.
Jennie: Uh, you, you should do it, um, soon though, because. My daughter’s about to have a baby, and, and I might not see it then, and you’ll be stuck in purgatory. So I’m putting, so this is the plot, putting pressure on, on you. I, I would say you got about five days.
Andrew: Five days. Okay.
Andrew: Come up with the ending.
Jennie: Come up with the ending and, and like I said, it, it doesn’t, you’re not locked in for all eternity. Yeah. But, um. You gotta put a stake in the ground in order to make it work. Mm-hmm. You can put another stake in the ground later, you can unwind it later.
Andrew: Yeah.
Jennie: Um, that’s obviously [00:51:00] the work of creativity.
Jennie: You know, you might write this entire manuscript and change your mind again. That’s all fine, but you do have to choose, um, because it’s not gonna hold together if you don’t choose. Mm-hmm. All right.
Andrew: Okay.
Jennie: Sorry.
Andrew: That’s alright.
Andrew: I knew this wasn’t gonna be easy. I knew this wasn’t gonna be easy.
Jennie: If it was easy, I mean.
Andrew: What’s, what’s the point? What’s the point of doing it if it’s easy?
Jennie: Totally. You’re doing a great job, Andrew. Really
Andrew: thank you.
Jennie: Such a good job. The reason we are able to have such a rich conversation about these characters, this set up this world, is because you’re creating a really rich and nuanced and interesting world.
Jennie: I think it’s fantastic. It just keeps getting better and better and better and, um, it’s exciting. It’s alive. It’s great. So you’re not that far. You’re really not that far from being [00:52:00] done and being unleashed to like start writing, which is gonna be so fun. So,
Outro: yeah.
Jennie: Um, I mean, maybe you’re secretly doing it anyway, and I’m just imagining that I have, I’m the puppet master.
Jennie: We will, um, continue to bring our listeners along on this journey. Um. To see what happens, and it’ll be really fun, uh, to, uh, to meet next and, um. And check it out. Um, all right, so for everybody listening, thanks for being here. Now let’s get back to work.
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