Hey ho, welcome to the Publishing Nerd Corner, where we dive into the more technical aspects of authorship.

Jess here. I love it when Sarina schools me on all things publishing nerdery, so we decided to make it official and create a whole new series. I have a long list of things I want her to explain for us, so stay tuned for more.

In the meantime, our first Nerd Corner chat is a timely episode about the Anthropic case specifically and registering your copyright specifically.

We’re going to discuss:

* The benefits of registering your copyright with the United States Copyright Office.

* The possibility of a settlement in the Anthropic lawsuit, and what that could mean for authors.

* Why copyright registration will be part of any potential settlement.

* How to register your copyright.

* Did your publisher fulfill its obligation to register your copyright?

For more information about the benefits of copyright registration, see the Copyright Alliance

To register your copyright yourself, you’ll need Copyright.gov.

You will also want to read the Authors Guild post about, “What Authors Need to Know About the Anthropic Settlement”

Hit that “play” button and nerd out with us for fifteen minutes!

Transcript below!

EPISODE 466 - TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, it's Jess Lahey. If you've been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that, yes, I am a writer, but my true love, my deepest love, is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, into community organizations, into nonprofits, into businesses, and do everything from lunch-and-learns, to community reads, to just teaching about the topics that I'm an expert in. From the topics in The Gift of Failure, engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated, and yes, the topic of over parenting and what that does to kids learning, to topics around The Addiction Inoculation, substance use prevention in kids, and what I've been doing lately that's the most fun for me, frankly, is combining the two topics. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary when we're talking about it in the context of learning and motivation and self-efficacy and competence and, yes, cognitive development. So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, to your nonprofit, to your business, I would love to come. You can go to Jessicalahey.com. Look under the menu option “Speaking” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There's also a lot of information on my website about what I do. There's videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch. And I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount. So that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. Hope to hear from you.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.

Jess Lahey

Hey, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I'm Jess Lahey, your host, along with another host today—this is going to be super fun. We are the podcast about writing: short things, long things, poetry, prose, book proposals, querying agents—we're basically the podcast about getting the work done. I am Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my journalism at The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

And I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels, and also a council member on The Authors Guild. And it is in that spirit that we are bringing you a special episode today, which we're calling part of our Publishing Nerd Corner segment.

Jess Lahey

Our favorite stuff.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so publishing nerd stuff. Here we go, and the topic is pretty timely.

Jess Lahey

And juicy.

Sarina Bowen

And juicy. We're talking about why authors copyright their work, what it means, and how it ties into everything going on with the Anthropic lawsuit and potential settlement.

Jess Lahey

So, backing up, could you tell us a little bit about the Anthropic lawsuit, and sort of what it was about, and why everybody's talking about it right now?

Sarina Bowen

Of course. So, Anthropic is an AI LLM, Large Language Model Company, just like OpenAI is the same as ChatGPT. Anthropic are the people who make Claude, but all the AI big companies are being sued right now, including Meta, including Microsoft, or...

Jess Lahey

Google. Google.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, sorry.

Jess Lahey

Not Microsoft.

Sarina Bowen

And also the new one is there's a new lawsuit against Apple. So, basically, everybody who went out and made a big LLM model using stolen, pirated books and articles downloaded from the Internet is being sued variously by different organizations, and it looks like the Anthropic lawsuit might be resolved first.

Jess Lahey

Okay, so what are they being sued for?

Sarina Bowen

They're being sued for a couple of things. First is the wholesale piracy of lots of books downloaded off the internet, and second, for feeding all of those books into their models to teach them how to speak and compose.

Jess Lahey

A while ago, weren't some—I think some—internal memos around the whole Meta thing where, essentially, they acknowledged how much it would cost to purchase legally all of the things they needed to model, do their large LLMs, and they decided, “Wow, that would be a lot of money.”

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jess Lahey

“We'll just steal them.”

Sarina Bowen

We don't want to deal with copyright. Well, specifically, the most interesting internal memos that we've seen have been involved in the Meta case, which we're not really talking about tonight, but yeah, there are some big smoking guns out there. But I wanted to take this opportunity to talk about the practical nature of copyrighting your work, because there's a potential settlement on the table that's taking shape in terms of how authors will be paid some portion of a $1.5 billion settlement from this Anthropic suit, potentially, and whether or not you have a registered copyright on your book is going to matter. So, first of all, in this case, the judge did rule—well, we wanted him to rule—that using these books to train the model was not a fair use situation.

Jess Lahey

Right. They were trying to say, “No, no, this is just fair use.”

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jess Lahey

“We shouldn't have to pay anybody.”

Sarina Bowen

And unfortunately, we don't have a ruling in favor of this concept yet, and The Authors Guild cares very much that it's not fair use and will continue to fight for that. But we instead were ruled in this case something that is actually quite powerful and important to the whole conversation, which is that the judge said that Anthropic downloading all of these titles—these millions of stolen books—from a piracy site was, in fact, illegal and that they are going to have to pay. So the ruling was against them. So now this is a class-action suit, and in a class-action suit, all of the parties in the class—you can opt out if you want to, like if you're an author who would rather sue them individually, you can still do that. But it looks like in defining the class of who is eligible to receive a payout; you're going to have to have a registered copyright. Your copyright will have had to have been registered within five years of publication, and also before they downloaded it.

Jess Lahey

So, to clarify, some of the questions I've seen floating around on the interwebs are about, “Oh, but there was that big list that was published by The Atlantic.” You could go to The Atlantic and just see, and “oh my gosh, I had six titles that were on that list. Does that mean that I'm going to get money for all of those titles?”

Sarina Bowen

Okay, well, that is a great question. And actually, I need to stipulate real quick that I am not a lawyer.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Sarina Bowen

You're a lawyer, and almost certainly I'm going to make an error when I'm speaking on this tonight. I have spent a lot of time listening in meetings about these things, so I feel comfortable enough to discuss it with you tonight. But, um, but I'm going to make a mistake. So you need to check everything...

Jess Lahey

Right.

Sarina Bowen

…when you make your own legal decisions. So wait, what was the question?

Jess Lahey

So the question was about that big list at The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

Oh yeah!

Jess Lahey

That was like, what, 5 million titles or so?

Sarina Bowen

Well, that list was taken from a specific piracy site.

Jess Lahey

Right.

Sarina Bowen

But it doesn't know which titles the company actually downloaded, so only the company has that list. So, first of all, that database is sort of handy and interesting, but it is not definitive in terms of this list.

Jess Lahey

So do not count on looking at that list and saying, “Oh, I have six titles there, maybe I'll get a payout for all six titles.”

Sarina Bowen

Right. So, um, but let's—we really need to talk about copyright registration because there's so much misinformation floating around out there. So it's true that if you sit down right now and write something, you already own the copyright for it. So that's powerful—sort of—right? Um, but the point of registering your copyright—and these benefits are right on the Copyright Alliance website. So we're going to link to the copyright website—but, um, one of the primary reasons why people register is because registration is a necessary prerequisite for bringing, for U.S. copyright owners, to bring a copyright infringement suit in federal court. And of course, this is a federal court action, but also because statutory damages and attorneys’ fees can only be sued for if you have a registered copyright. If you just own your copyright without registering it, you can sue for damages. The damages in the copyright suit are pretty hard to prove, or at least quantify. So that is why the statutory part of damages is what is being enacted in this judgment.

Jess Lahey

But Sarina, I have a publisher. Didn't my publisher register my copyright for me?

Sarina Bowen

Well, probably. My newer contracts all say the publisher must register them, and as far as I can tell, those newer contracts, the publisher did. So, yay. But I do have an old contract from about 2014 that only says that the publisher may register it. And guess what—they didn't. So, first of all, you need to see—you can go to a different database, which is the U.S. government copyright database—and look yourself up and see if your book is in there. And honestly, if your publisher was supposed to register you, and they didn't, The Authors Guild would really like to hear from you, because they're sort of looking into this. Suddenly, you know, in the last 10 days, there's a bunch of people who are like, “Oh my goodness, hang on, they didn't actually do it.” So that's something to think about, something to look at.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Meanwhile, because statutory damages are what is going to be paid by this company, that is why the registration—it's not just to make people mad. It's not just to… it's not a gatekeeping thing. It's a legal issue with the settlement. So if you have not been in the practice of registering your copyrights, it's a pretty darn good idea to do that now. It's a completely online process. The site is quite antiquated and not that much fun to work with, and there are some moments in there when you're like, “I don't understand what's being asked of me.” But it's worth taking the time. It costs, I believe, $65 for a single title. They mail it to you at home, and then you have the certificate forever with your copyright registration number, but it's also kept in that database. You are required to deposit a copy—two copies of… well, a digital copy of your book, or two physical ones, and we usually use digital at this point. But totally worthwhile, and all the people who've been slogging it out on the copyright website up till now are probably feeling pretty good about it.

Jess Lahey

Okay, so there's been this settlement, and I don't know yet whether or not my book is included in that settlement because Anthropic has not turned over their list yet, but let's say I'm on it. When can I get my sweet, sweet dollars?

Sarina Bowen

Well, right now there is a really important The Authors Guild blog post about what to do, and we will also link to that, and they, in turn, link to—I think it's the lawyer's website with a form, a contact form—saying, yes, you know, please keep me in your thoughts and send me the email so that when the list is really ready, we can find each other.

Jess Lahey

And another plug for why you should be a member of The Authors Guild, if you qualify to be a member of The Authors Guild, is that The Authors Guild made sure that their authors were included in the class action suit.

Sarina Bowen

Well, just that they're going to hand the names.

Jess Lahey

Yes. Exactly.

Sarina Bowen

Except I actually think that if you have multiple titles, if you have multiple publishers, if you use a pseudonym—there's lots of reasons to go to that lawyer's page and fill it out anyway.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

So, I mean, the worst that can happen is that both The Authors Guild and you have turned in your name, and they'll have to sort out some duplicates. But that is not the end of the world. And I went there, and I'm filling it in as well.

Jess Lahey

The Authors Guild is a great source of reliable, factual information on what is going on with this suit at the moment.

Sarina Bowen

It is, and it's not like… I'm very proud of my work on the council, but it's like a couple of meetings a month. But what's really happening is that the people who work at The Authors Guild—it's their job. It's a bunch of lawyers who are very good at copyright law, and they've been working on this, like, you know, without sleeping practically, for like a year and a half. So, you know, all of these suits are what they're focusing on all day long. And they want to make sure that the greatest number of authors receive the compensation that they deserve, and it's basically like their whole entire lives right now.

Jess Lahey

It's always cool, actually, as a side note, in the annual meetings—I like to attend the annual meetings virtually—and it's always amazing when they give sort of a download of what's been accomplished by The Authors Guild over the past year. So it amazes me, the advocacy that's going on.

Sarina Bowen

It's a lot of suing people who aren't working on behalf of authors and against book bans and things like that.

Jess Lahey

Absolutely, absolutely. Is there anything else that we need to know that's pressing?

Sarina Bowen

Register your copyrights, people, let's go.

Jess Lahey

Go to the show notes. The links will be in the show notes, as Sarina said. Worst case scenario, you go to that lawyer website, law firm website, and you double—you know, you've done it, and so has your publisher. But who cares, whatever, as long as you've done the work. And, in fact, I will, when I write the show notes, be going back and doing the same myself. And you know, this is a moving target. This is not over yet. This is a continuing saga.

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, and it's definitely not like a done deal, like, “Yay, I'm going to be getting a check in the mail next week.”

Sarina Bowen

No.

Jess Lahey

That's not the way...

Sarina Bowen

It's going to take a long time, but there's going to be more of these suits. So, of course, the best time to register your copyright was five years ago. The second-best time is right now.

Jess Lahey

So, go do that. You have a to-do list. You have homework. Go do those things. And thank you for explaining that stuff. And thank you also for working with The Authors Guild. Because I know it's a ton of work. Not only is it a ton of work for you, doing the meetings and all that sort of stuff, but it's hard to go online and see on social media so many people misunderstanding either what this case is about, and you do a lot of clarifying, which is very sweet.

Sarina Bowen

Oh, thank you. But you know what? It's complicated.

Jess Lahey

It is very complicated.

Sarina Bowen

And I am not a lawyer, and I put in the time to understand it. But the truth is, it's hard. We're dealing with some really complicated concepts. IP is tricky, and, you know, I learn a little more every year, but it's hard, and if it confuses you, you are forgiven for feeling that way.

Jess Lahey

So, again, thank you. Go do your copyright thing. Go to the law firm website, go to The Authors Guild website, and just catch up. Catch up on what this is all about. And we will keep you posted in our little nerdy corner here, which I'm really excited about. I have a full page of questions I want to ask Sarina about some of the things that she understands really well about publishing and all of the stuff that goes into it—all these things, especially about independent publishing—that is not a world I'm a part of, but you always seem to have great answers to those questions. So we will be delivering those questions and answers to you in our Nerd Corner. And thank you so much for being with us. And until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

Jess here. My guest this week is Jeff Selingo, an author and speaker I’ve admired for a long time. His work on college, college admissions and the transition to work and life in emerging adulthood are essential reads for anyone looking to understand what want and need in higher education and life.

His books, There is Life After College, Who Gets In and Why: A Year Inside College Admissions and his forthcoming book, Dream School: Finding the College That’s Right for You are all essential reads for teens and emerging adults as well as parents of teens and emerging adults. I adore all three, but I wanted to talk with Jeff about a few aspects of his writing: how he created a speaking career, finds his topics, and how on earth he gets people to talk about topics that tend to be shrouded in secrecy behind very high walls (such as college admissions). Check out Jeff’s newsletter, Next, and Podcast, Future U

KJ here, as you probably know, to tell you that if you're not listening to the Writing the Book episodes Jenny Nash and I have been doing, you should be. Jenny's working on her latest nonfiction, and I'm working on my next novel, and we're both trying to do something bigger and better than anything we've done before.

We sit down weekly and dish about everything—from Jenny's proposal and the process of getting an agent to my extremely circular method of creating a story. We are brutally honest and open—even beyond what we are here. Truly, we probably say way too much. And for that reason, Writing the Book is subscriber-only.

So I'm here saying: subscribe. That's a whole 'nother episode a week, and always a juicy one—plus all the other good subscriber stuff: the First Pages: BookLab, Jess’s From Author to Authority series, and whatever else we come up with. (It varies enough that it's hard to list it all.) Plus, of course, access whenever we run The Blueprint—which, I don’t know, might be soon.

That's all I’ve got. So head to amwritingpodcast.com, get yourself signed up, and come listen to Writing the Book. Then talk to us. Tell us—tell us about your book writing and what's going on. We really want to hear from y’all.

Thanks a lot. And Subscribe!

Transcript below!

EPISODE 465 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Howdy, listeners—KJ here, as you probably know—to tell you that if you're not listening to the Writing the Book episodes Jennie Nash and I have been doing, you should be. Jennie is working on her latest nonfiction, and I'm working on my next novel, and we're both trying to do something bigger and better than anything we've done before. We sit down weekly and dish about everything from Jennie's proposal and the process of getting an agent to my extremely circular method of creating a story. We are brutally honest and open—even beyond what we are here. Truly, we probably say way too much, and for that reason, Writing the Books is subscriber-only. So I'm here saying: subscribe. That's a whole other episode a week, and always a juicy one—plus there's all the other good subscriber stuff: the First Page Booklab, Jess' From Author to Authority series, and whatever else we come up with, which kind of varies enough that it's hard to list out. Plus, of course, access to whenever we run the Blueprint, which—I don't know—it’s going to be soon. That’s all I got. So head to AmWritingpodcast.com, get yourself signed up and come listen to Writing the Book, and then talk to us. Tell us—tell us about your book writing and what’s going on. We really want to—we want to hear from y’all. Thanks a lot, and please subscribe.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.

Jess Lahey

Hey, it's Jess Lahey, and welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, poetry, proposals, queries, nonfiction, fiction—all the stuff. In the end, this is the podcast about getting the work done. And in the beginning of this podcast, our goal was to flatten the learning curve for other writers. So I am super excited about who I have today. Oh—quick intro. I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times, The Atlantic and The Washington Post, as you can find the work of my guest there too. So my guest today is someone that I have looked up to for a long time, and someone I use as sort of a—to bounce things off of and to think about how I do my work and how to do my work better. Jeff Selingo, thank you so much for coming to on the show. Jeff is the author of a couple of books that I'm a huge—In fact, I can look over at my bookshelf right now and see all of his books on getting into college, why college is not the end point. He has a new book coming out that we’re going to be talking about—really; it’s coming out real as soon as this podcast comes out. And I’m just—I’m a huge fan, Jeff. Thank you so, so much for coming on the pod.

Jeff Selingo

Just the same here—and I'm a huge fan of this podcast as well. It’s on my regular rotation, so...

Jess Lahey

Oh yay.

Jeff Selingo

I am thrilled, as always, to be here.

Jess Lahey

It's—it’s changed over the years, and now that we have four different, you know, co-hosts, there’s sort of different takes on it. We’ve got, like, Sarina—the business side, and Jess—the nonfiction geek side, and KJ—the fiction side, and Jennie—the nuts-and-bolts editor side. So it’s been really fun for us to sort of split off. But what I wanted to talk to you about today are a couple of different things. Your book Who Gets In and Why is—um , on the podcast, we talk about dissecting other people’s work as a way... In fact, I was talking to my daughter about this yesterday. She’s writing a thesis—what she hopes will be one chapter in a book. And I was saying, you know, one of the things you can do is go dissect other books you think are really well constructed—books that are reaching the same, similar audience. And your book, Who Gets In and Why, I think, is essential reading for anyone who's writing interview based, and specifically nonfiction around attempting to get their arms around a process. And a process that—for you—what I’m really interested about in this book is a process that’s usually, you know, guarded and kind of secret. And no one wants to let you in for real on all the moving parts and how the decisions are made, because the college admissions process is—it’s an inexact recipe. It depends on where you are, it depends on the school, but everyone wants the secret. Like, Jeff, just get me the secrets of how to get in. So how do you approach people who are, in a sense, some ways, secret-keepers and guardians of the secret sauce—to mix metaphors? How do you get those people to agree to be a part of a book—not just to be interviewed, but to actually put themselves out there and to put the sausage-making out there in a book, which can be a huge leap of faith for any organization or human being?

Jeff Selingo

Yeah, and I think it's definitely harder now than it was when I did Who Gets In and Why. I think it's harder than when, you know, other people have been inside the process—whether it's, you know, Fast Food Nation, with the, you know, the fast food industry, which is a book that I looked up to when I was writing, Who Gets In and Why. I think it’s—people just don’t trust writers and journalists as much as they used to. So I think that’s—a lot of this is really trust. First of all, you have to approach organizations that trust their own process. When people ask me, “Why these three schools?” You know, I approached 24 schools when I wrote, Who Gets In and Why, and three said yes. Twenty-one said no. And when I describe the people who said yes and why they said yes, they trusted their own process. And they also trusted me. But the first thing they did was trust their own process.. And so when I heard later on from people who had said no to me—and I would, you know, talk to them, you know, off the record about why they said no—there was always something about their process, their admissions process, that they didn’t trust. They were getting a new, like, software system, or they had new employees that they didn’t really quite know, or they were doing things—it’s not that they were doing things wrong, but that, you know, it was at the time when the Supreme Court was making a decision about affirmative action, and they didn’t quite know how that would play, and so they didn’t quite trust it—and then how that, obviously, would be used by me. So the first thing you have to do is think about organizations that really believe in themselves, because they’re going to be the ones that are going to talk about themselves externally. And then you just have to build trust between them and you. And that just takes—unfortunately, it takes time. And as a book author or a reporter, you don’t always have that on your side.

Jess Lahey

So when—were some of these cold? Like of the 24, were all of these cold? Were some of these colder? Did you have an in with some of these?

Jeff Selingo

I had an in with most of them, because I had been covering—I mean, that’s the other thing. You know, trust is built over time, and I had been covering higher ed for almost 25 years now. So it was just that they knew me, they knew of me, they knew of my work. I had other people vouch for me. So, you know, I had worked with other people in other admissions offices on other stories, and they knew people in some of these offices, so they would vouch for me. But at the end—so, you know, it ended up being Emory, Davidson and the University of Washington. It was really only Davidson where I knew somebody. Emory and University of Washington—I kind of knew people there that were the initial door opener. But beyond that, it was just spending time with them and helping them understand why I wanted to tell the story, how I thought the story would put play out, and getting them to just trust the process.

Jess Lahey

There's also something to be said for people who have some enthusiasm for the greater story to be told—especially people who have an agenda, whether that’s opening up admissions to the, quote, “whole student” as opposed to just their test scores, or someone who feels like they really have something to add to the story. Both of the people who I featured in The Addiction Inoculation and who insisted on having their real names used said, you know, there’s just—there’s a value for me in putting this story out there and finding worth in it, even though for these two people, there was some risk and there was embarrassment, and there’s, you know, this shame around substance use disorder. But these two people said, you know, I just think there’s a bigger story to be told, and I’m really proud to be a part of that bigger story. So there is a selling aspect also to, you know, how you position what it is you're doing.

Jeff Selingo

And there’s—so there’s a little bit of that, and that was certainly true here. The admissions deans at these places were longtime leaders who not only trusted their own process but understood that the industry was getting battered. You know, people were not trusting of admissions. They felt like it was a game to be played. And there was definitely a larger story that they wanted to tell there. Now truth be told—and they've told this in conferences that I've been at and on panels that I've moderated with them—there was also a little bit of they wanted to get their own story out, meaning the institutional story, right? Emory is competing against Vanderbilt, and Davidson is a liberal arts college in the South, when most liberal arts colleges are in the Northeast. So there was a little bit of, hey, if we participate in this, people are going to get to know us in a different way, and that is going to help us at the end—meaning the institution.

Jess Lahey

Do you have to? Did you? Was there a hurdle of, we really have, you know, this is some PR for us, too. So did that affect—I mean, there’s a little bit of a Heisenberg thing going on here. Did the fact that you were observing them change, you think, anything about what they did and what they showed you?

Jeff Selingo

It's an interesting thing, Jess. It’s a great question, because I often get that. Because I was—you know, originally, I wanted to do one office. I wanted to be inside one institution. And when all three of them kind of came back and said, yes, we’ll do this—instead of just choosing one of them—I thought, oh, this is interesting. We have a small liberal arts college. We have a big, private urban research university. We have a big public university in the University of Washington. So I wanted to show—kind of compare and contrast—their processes. But that also meant I couldn’t be in one place all the time. There’s only one of me, and there’s three of them, and they’re in different parts of the country. So clearly I was not there every day during the process. And somebody would say to me, oh, well, how do you know they’re not going to do X, Y, and Z when you’re not there? And I quickly realized that they had so much work to do in such a short amount of time that they couldn’t really—they couldn’t really game the system for me. After a while, I just became like a painting on the wall. I just was there. And in many cases, they didn’t even notice I was there—which, by the way, is where you want to be—because they would say things, do things, without realizing sometimes that a reporter was present. And there’s the opening scene of the book, which is just a fantastic—in my opinion, one of my favorite scenes in the book—right where they’re talking about these students and so forth, and in a way that is so raw and so natural about how they did their work. If they knew I was in the room at that point—which of course they did—but if they really perceived my being there, that would have been really hard to pull off.

Jess Lahey

Did they have, did you guys have an agreement about off the record moments or anything like that? Or was there and speaking of which, actually, was there any kind of contract going into this, or any kind of agreement going into this?

Jeff Selingo

I basically told them that there would be no surprises. So everything was essentially on the record unless they explicitly said that, and that was usually during interviews, like one-on-one interviews. But while I was in the room with them, there was really nothing off the record. There couldn't be because it was hard to kind of stop what they were doing to do that. The only thing I promised was that there would be no surprises at the end. So when the book was done, during the fact-checking process, I would do what The New Yorker would do during fact-checking. I wouldn’t read the passages back to them, but I would tell them basically what’s in there, in terms of it as I fact-checked it. And so they really kind of knew, for the most part—not word for word—but they kind of knew what was in the book before it came out.

Jess Lahey

I like that term—no surprises. It’s a real nice blanket statement for, look, I’m not looking to get—there’s no gotcha thing here.

Jeff Selingo

There’s no gotcha, exactly...

Jess Lahey

Right. Exactly.

Jeff Selingo

This was not an investigative piece. But there were things that, you know, I’m sure that they would have preferred not to be in there. But for the most part, during the fact-checking process, you know, I learned things that were helpful. You know, sometimes they would say, oh, that’s an interesting way of—you know, I would redirect quotes, and they would want to change them. And I said, well, I don’t really want to change direct quotes, because that’s what was said in that moment. And then they would provide context for things, which was sometimes helpful. I would add that to the piece, or I would add that to the book. So at the end of the day—again—it goes back to trust. And they realized what I was trying to do with this book. It’s also a book rather than an article. Books tend to have permanence. And I knew that this book would have, you know, shelf life. And as a result, I wanted to make sure that it would stand the test of time.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about your new book—your book that's just coming out as this is getting out into the world—called Dream School. And by the way, such a great title, because one person’s dream school is not another’s. But like, my daughter happens to be at, I think, the perfect school for her, and my son went to the perfect school for him—which, by the way, wasn’t even his first choice. And in retrospect, he said, I’m just so glad I didn’t get into that other place—my, you know, early decision place—because this other place really was the perfect match. And I think that’s why I love that title so much, because I spend a lot of time trying to help parents understand that their dream may not necessarily be their child’s dream. And what makes something a dream school may, you know—in fact, in terms of time—my daughter was applying to colleges just coming out of COVID. Like, she had never been to a school dance. She’d never—you know—all that kind of stuff. So for me, the dream looked very different than maybe it would have four years prior, thinking I was going to have a kid that had the opportunity to sort of socially, you know, integrate into the world in a very different way. So I love that. And is that something that—how did—how do your ideas emerge? Did it emerge in the form of that idea of what is a dream school for someone? Or—anyway, I’ll let you get back to...

Jeff Selingo

Yeah. So, like many follow-up books, this book emerged from discussing Who Gets In and Why. So I was out on the road talking about Who Gets In and Why. And I would have a number of parents—like, you know when you give talks, people come up to you afterwards—and they say, okay, we love this book, but—there's always a but. And people would come up to me about Who Gets In and Why, and they would be like, love the book, but it focused more on selective colleges and universities. What if we don’t get into one of those places? What if we can’t afford one of those places? What if we don’t really want to play that game, and we want permission? And this—this idea of a permission structure came up very early on in the reporting for this book. We need to be able to tell our friends, our family, that it’s okay, right? You know how it is, right? A lot of this is about parents wanting to say that their kid goes to Harvard. It’s less about going to Harvard, but they could tell their friends that their kid goes to Harvard. So they wanted me to help them create this permission structure to be able to look more widely at schools.

Jess Lahey

I like that.

Jeff Selingo

So that's how this came about, and then the idea of Dream School—and I’m fascinated by your reaction to that title. Because the reaction I've been getting from some people is—you know—because the idea, too many people, the idea of a dream school, is a single entity.

Jess Lahey

Of course.

Jeff Selingo

It’s a single school; it’s a single type of school. And what—really, it’s a play on that term that we talk about, a dream school. In many ways, the dream school is your dream, and what you want, and the best fit for you. And I want to give you the tools in this book to try to figure out what is the best match for you that fulfills your dreams. It’s kind of a little play on that—a little tweak on how we think about the dream and dream school. And that’s really what I’m hoping to do for this book—is that, in some ways, it’s a follow-up. So you read Who Gets In and Why, you decide, okay, maybe I do want to try for those highly selected places. But as I tell the story early on in in Dream School. A. It’s almost impossible to get into most of those places today—even more so than five or six years ago. And second, many of the students that I met—young adults that I met in reporting Dream School—ended up at, you know, fill-in-the-blank: most popular school, brand-name school, highly selective school, elite school—whatever you want to put in that blank—and it wasn’t quite what they expected. And so that’s another story that I want to tell families in this book—is that, hey, there’s a wider world out there, and there is success to be had at many of these places.

Jess Lahey

There's something I say occasionally, that I have to take the temperature of the room, just because I—you know, you and I speak at some fairly similar places, like, you know, the hoity-toity private schools that—you know, everyone's just go, go, go, do, do, do, achieve, achieve, achieve. And every once in a while, I like to insert—I like to, number one, tell them that my college was, I think, perfect for me. I went to my safety school. I went to the University of Massachusetts and had an extraordinary experience. But I'm a very certain kind of person, and maybe for another—like, for example, my daughter, when we were looking at schools, our state school was just too big for her. It just—she was going to get lost. It wasn't going to work very well. But the thing I like to say when I can, when I feel like the audience is ready to hear it is: What if it’s a massive relief if you don’t have an Ivy kid? If you have a kid who’s not going to get into an Ivy school, isn’t it a relief to say that’s not what we’re aiming for here, and we can actually find a place that’s a great fit for my kid? And that sometimes goes over really well. For a few people, they’ll come up and thank me for that sort of reframing afterwards. But for some people, that is just not at all what they want to hear.

Jeff Selingo

And it's—you know, it's really hard. And I think you go back to audience, and—you know—most people make money on books kind of after the fact, right? The speaking, as you mentioned, and things like that. And it's interesting—this book, as I talk to counselors about it, high school counselors—oh, they're like, this is perfect. This is the message I've been trying to get through to parents. Then I talk to the parents—like, I'm not quite sure this message will work in our community, because this community is very focused on getting into the Ivy League and the Ivy Plus schools?

Jess Lahey

Yes, but that’s why your title is so brilliant. Because if you're getting—and I talk a lot about this, I don’t know if you’ve heard, I’ve talked about this on the podcast—that with the substance use prevention stuff, it’s hard for me to get people to come in. So I use The Gift of Failure to do that, right? So you've got this title that can get the people in the seats, and then you, in your persuasive and charismatic way, can explain to them why this is a term that may—could—use some expanding. I think that's an incredible opportunity.

Jeff Selingo

And it's important, too—early on, my editor told me, “Jeff, don’t forget, we’re an aspirational society.” And I said—I told, I said, “Rick,” I said, “I’m not telling people not to apply in the Ivy League. I’m not saying they’re terrible schools. I’m not saying don’t look at those places.” All I'm saying is, we want to expand our field a little bit to look more broadly, more widely. So we're not saying don't do this—we’re saying, do “do” this. And that's what I'm hoping that this book does.

Jess Lahey

Well, and the reality is, people listen to the title. They don’t read the subtitle, because subtitles are long, and they have a great use—but not when you’re actually talking about a book with someone. And so what they’re going to hear is Dream School, and I think that's a fantastic way to position the book. But since you opened up the topic, I also—I am right now mentoring someone who is attempting to sell a book while also planning for a speaking career, which, as you know, is something that I did concurrently. How did you—did you know you wanted to do speaking when you were first writing your books? Or is this something that sort of came out of the books themselves?

Jeff Selingo

It just came out of the books. You know, the first book, which was College (Un)bound, which was 2012, sold better than I expected, but it was aimed at a consumer audience. But who ended up reading that were college leaders, presidents and people work at colleges. So I had a very busy schedule speaking to people inside the industry. Then I turned my—you know, the second book, There Is Life After College— really turned it to this parenting audience, which was a very new audience to me, and that really led to me to, you know, Who Gets In and Why, and now this book. The difference—and I’m always curious to talk to parenting authors like you—is that college, you know, people—even the most aspirational people in life, I understand, you know, people in certain cities think about preschool, what preschool their kid’s going to get into to get into the right college—but in reality, they’re going to read a college book when their kids are in high school. And that is the more challenging piece around, you know, I—unlike most parenting authors who have a wider audience, because a lot of the issues that face parents face parents when they have toddlers, when they have pre-teens, when they have teens. Obviously, some parenting authors just focus on teens, I get that.

But this book really has kind of a short life in terms of the audience. And so what we’re trying to do—so think about it: Who Gets In and Why— it's still in hardcover. Has never been published in paperback, largely because there's a new audience for it every year, which is fantastic...

Jess Lahey

Yeah, I was going to mention that. That is the massive upside. And for me, it's usually a four-year sort of turnover in terms of speaking anyway.

Jeff Selingo

Yeah, you’re right. And so the nice thing on the speaking front is that I have almost a new audience every year, so I could continue to go back to the same schools...

Jess Lahey

Right.

Jeff Selingo

...every year, which has been really helpful—with a slightly different message, because the industry is also changing, and admissions is changing as a result. So, no, I—the speaking came afterwards, and now I realize that that's really kind of how you make this thing work. I couldn’t really have a writing career without the speaking piece.

Jess Lahey

Since figuring that out—and I guess assuming that you enjoy doing it, as I hope you do—is that something that you’re continuing to market on your own?

Jeff Selingo

Yes. So that’s what we’re doing. You know, one of the big changes from the last book is that we have developed a—you know, we built a customer relationship management system under our newsletter. So we use HubSpot, which is, you know, like Salesforce. It's something like that And so we’ve now built a community that is much stronger than the one that I had five years ago. That’s a community of parents, of counselors, of independent counselors. So we just know so much more about who we serve, who our readers are, and who will ask me to come speak to their groups and things like that. So that, to me, has been the biggest change since the last book compared to this book. And it has enabled us—and it’s something that I would highly encourage authors to do. I don’t think they have to go out and buy one of these big, robust systems, but the more you know about your readers and build that community, the more that they’re going to respond to you. They really want to be with you in some way. They want to read your books. They want to come to your webinars. They want to listen to your podcasts. They want to see you speak. They want to invite you to speak. And building that community is incredibly important to having that career, you know, after the book comes out.

Jess Lahey

It's also for marketing purposes. So Sarina Bowen—again, brilliant at this. he way she does that is, she slices and dices her mailing list into all kinds of, like, where the reader came from—is this someone who's, you know, more interested in this, did I—did I meet them at this conference, you know, how did I acquire this name for my list? And she does a lot of marketing very specifically to those specific lists, and that information is amazing. And I think so many of us tend to think just—and I have to admit that this is where I spend most of my time—is just getting more emails in your newsletter. Owning, you know, the right—because it’s an honor of being able to reach out to those people and have them be interested in what you have to say. But that’s your—I may have to have you come back to talk specifically about that, because it’s increasingly—as we’re doing more of the marketing for our books—I think that’s the future for people who want to keep things going.

Jeff Selingo

And that's—you know, that is the reality today. That's why proposals sell. Because people—you know, publishers really want people with platforms. And if you're not a superstar, there are very few of those out there, you need to figure out another way to build that platform. And so marketing yourself is critically important, and I've learned that from book one. You know, people would say, “Well, you're always just selling your book.” And I said, “Well, if I don't sell it, no one else,” right? So at some point, the publisher—you know, there's only so much the publisher is going to do. And they don't really have the tools that you do. And more than that, Jess, like, you understand your audience. Sarina understands her audience, right? Like, we understand our audiences in ways that publishers, who are doing, you know, dozens and dozens of books a year, just don't get.

Jess Lahey

Right. No, absolutely.

Jeff Selingo

Like, no offense against them. I think they're doing really good work. But it's just—it’s hard for them, I think, to really understand, well, who's going to really read this book?

Jess Lahey

And I love the idea of using the questions you get. As you know, I tend to take the questions that I get and turn them into videos or—and I do answer all the emails—but I keep a spreadsheet of what those questions are so that I can slice and dice it in various ways. And they’re fascinating. And that shapes like, oh wow, I had no idea so many people—like, I had no idea that so many kids were actually interested in knowing whether or not the caffeine—amounts of caffeine that they're drinking—are healthy, or how to get better sleep. Because if you ask their parents, they’re like, “Oh no, they don’t care about sleep,” or, “They just drink so much coffee and they don’t care.” And yet what you hear from the kids is such a different story. And the thing that I also love is the idea of, you know, what that dream school concept means to the actual kid applying. You’ve probably heard this before, but I needed some symbolic way to let my kids know that this was not, in the end, my decision, and how important this decision was for them in terms of becoming adults. And so I said, the one thing I will never do is put a sticker for a school on the back of my car. Because your choice of where to become a young, emerging adult is not—I don't—that's not my currency to brag on as a parent. It's too important for that. And so people go nuts over that. They're like, “But that’s what I really want—is that sticker on the back of the car!” And so I have to be careful when I talk about it, but for my kids, that was my one symbolic act to say, this is about your growth and development, and not my bragging rights. And I think that’s a hard message.

Jeff Selingo

I think that's really important—especially, I have two teens at home. And I think this is a whole topic for another conversation around, you know, most parenting authors are also parents at the same time that they're doing this—advice out to everybody else. And I—I’m very aware of that. I'm also very aware of the privacy that they deserve. And so that’s an—it’s a fine line. It’s a hard line to walk, I will say, for authors, because people—they want to know about you. And they ask you a lot of questions—like, especially around college—like, “Well, where are your kids applying? Where are they going to go?” Like, “Oh, I bet you—especially this book, where I’m encouraging parents to think more broadly—well, you're probably giving that advice to everybody else, but you're not going to follow that, surely, right?” So it's—you just have to—it’s hard when you’re in this world that you're also part of every day.

Jess Lahey

It’s really tough. And things have gotten a lot more complicated—as listeners know, I have a trans kid, and that means that everything that I’ve ever written about that kid is out there. Some of it changeable, a lot of it—most of it—not. And would I do it again? I don't—I don't think so. And that—you know, that’s been a journey. But it’s also been—you know, we can’t know what we don’t know. I don't know—it’s a tough one. But I really admire your—that’s why I throw my safety school thing out there all the time. I'm like, “Look, you know, I went to the place that saved my parents a boatload of money and allowed me to do stuff like traveling that I never would have had the ability to do if I hadn't gone to my state school. And my priorities were big, and adventures, and lots of options.” And I’m very, very clear that standing up for myself was something that I wanted to learn how to do more. On the other hand, that’s not been the priority for both of my kids, so... Can I just—I want to ask one quick college question, just because it’s—in reading all of your books, this comes up for me over and over again. How do you help parents see the difference between their dream and their kid’s dream—or their goals and their kid’s goals? And how do you dance that line, which I think is a very easy place to lose readers, lose listeners, because they just shut down and they say, “That’s not something I want to mess with. This is too important to me.”

Jeff Selingo

It's a fine line. It's a difficult line to walk. At some point I have to realize who’s the you that you're speaking to. And I even say this in the introduction of the new book—it's largely parents. They're the readers. I know that—I hope their kids will read it. Maybe—maybe they will, maybe they won't, and maybe they'll read it as a family. But I'm really speaking to the families, and I want them to understand that college especially is an emotional good. It's something many of us—you’re talking about your undergraduate experience. I'm not going to ask you how long ago that was, but my undergraduate experience...

Jess Lahey

I'm 55. So it's been a long time ago.

Jeff Selingo

And I'm 52, right? So same here. But we have this—you know, most people, because of the audiences I tend to speak to, they're not first-generation students, right? They're mostly parents. You know, most of the parents in the audience went to college themselves, and for many of them it was a transformative experience, like it was for me.

People met their—they met their lifelong friends, they met their partners, they decided what they wanted to do in life. It was— it was this experience we all think it is. And as a result, I think a lot of parents put that then on their kids. “Well, this was a transforming experience for me, so it definitely has to be a transformative experience for you. Oh, and by the way, these are all the mistakes I made in doing that. I want to make sure you don't make any of those.”

Jess Lahey

And, by the way, no pressure, but this is going to be—this is where you're going to meet your best friends, your spouse. It's the best years of your life, so don't sacrifice even a second of it.

Jeff Selingo

Yeah. And then I...

Jess Lahey

No pressure.

Jeff Selingo

No pressure. And not only that, but it is—it is something we bought a very long time ago. I'm always amazed when—sometimes we go to the Jersey Shore on vacation, and I'll be out on a walk on the beach in the morning, and I'll see people wearing, you know, college shirts, sweatshirts. And, you know, some of these people are old—much older than I am. And I say, “Oh”—you know, we'll start to have a conversation, and I'll say, “Oh, so does your grandkid, you know, go to X school?” Terrible assumption on my part, I know. But they say, “No, that's where I went.” And it's amazing to me—these are people in their 70s and 80s—because I’m the only other person out that early walking—and they love this thing so much that they're still kind of advertising it. But it was so different back then. And that's the thing that I—going back to your question—that's the thing I try to explain to parents. You can guide this. You can put guardrails up. You might have to put guardrails up about money and location and all that other stuff. But college has changed so much that—don’t try to make this your search. You had your chance. You did your search. It worked out. It didn’t work out. You would have done things differently. I think that’s all great advice to give to your kids. But this is their life. This is their staging ground. They have to learn. And again, it's also different. Like, part of what I hope my books do is to try to explain to people—who, you know, kind of dip in and dip out of higher ed just when their kids are applying—that it’s very different than when they applied and went to college.

Jess Lahey

The thing I like to mention a lot is that people in admissions read so many applications that they can tell when something is sincere and something is personal and smacks of a kid, as opposed to when something smacks of a parent. That is a very different application. It's a very different essay—which is the thing that I guess I have the most experience with. But—so I am just so incredibly grateful to you for this book. I'm so grateful that there's evidence that people will actually agree to be interviewed, even in thorny situations like college admissions, which—I don't know. I'm still in awe of the fact that you got anyone to say yes. But—and I heavily—I heartily, heartily recommend Dream School to anyone who's listening. I just—I don't even have anyone applying to college, and I think it's just a fascinating topic, because the idea of where we become who we're going to be, and how we prime lots of other stuff that's going to happen later on in our life—I think that's a fascinating topic. So thank you so much for writing about it. Thank you for writing about it with such empathy and such interest. That's the other thing—is you can tell when someone really is interested in a topic when you read their book. And thank you for providing a book that I recommend all the time as a blueprint—as a dissection book—for people writing nonfiction, heavily interviewed nonfiction. So thank you, so, so much. Where can people find you if they want you to come speak, if they want you—if they want to find your books—where can people find you?

Jeff Selingo

Pretty simple. Jeffselingo.com is my website, and you can also follow me on most social—handle is @jeffselingo, as in Jeff. And I just love hearing from readers. As you know, books change lives, and I love hearing the stories when readers tell me they read something in a book and they acted on it. It's just the most beautiful thing.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, it's the best. I get videos occasionally; too, of like little kids doing things their parents didn’t think they could do. And—“Look! Look! They did this thing!” It's just—it's an amazing and place of privilege. You have a newsletter also…

Jeff Selingo

I do. Called Next. It comes out twice a month.

Jess Lahey

It's Fantastic!

Jeff Selingo

Oh, well, thank you. And I have a podcast also called Future U— that’s more around the kind of the insider-y nature of higher ed and how it works. But a lot—I know a lot of families listen to it to try to understand this black box that is college. So that's called Future U as in U for university.

Jess Lahey

The reason I love the podcast so much is, a lot of what parents get exposed to when they're doing the college admissions process are those graphs—scatter graphs of like, where do your numbers intersect with the expectations of this school—and it's a real human version of that. It's a human version of how that black box operates.

Jeff Selingo

And at the end of the day, as I always remind parents, it's a business. You might have this emotional tie to college, but if you don't—if you don't—and you know a mutual friend of ours, Ron Lieber, who writes for The New York Times around...

Jess Lahey

He's the best! The best!

Jeff Selingo

College finances, right? He always reminds people of this too. I don't remind them as often as he does, and I probably should. It’s this—you’re buying a consumer product. And you have to act as a consumer. Yes, you can have an emotional tie and a love for this place, but this is a big purchase, and you have to approach it like that.

Jess Lahey

Did you see his most recent piece about, yeah, taking some time and seeing—seeing what kind of offers you can get? I loved it. I love Ron’s approach to—he’s just a great guy. And his books are fantastic. Thank you again, so much. I'm going to let you get on with your day, but I'm always grateful for you. And good luck with the launch of Dream School.I will be out applauding on pub day for you.

Jeff Selingo

Appreciate it. Thank you, Jess.

Jess Lahey

All right, everyone—until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

Guests:

* Rossana D’Antonio – Author of 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash

* Marty Ross-Dolen – Author of Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter’s Search for Truth

Two authors, Rossana D’Antonio and Marty Ross-Dolen, each faced the unimaginable loss of loved ones in separate plane crashes decades apart. Their grief led them to write powerful memoirs—Rossana’s 26 Seconds and Marty’s Always There, Always Gone—that explore truth, healing, and the lasting impact of tragedy. In an extraordinary coincidence, both books were released in the same week, a situation that could easily spark feelings of rivalry or jealousy between writers. Instead, their shared experience created a bond as they connected over loss, resilience, and the courage it takes to turn pain into story. This episode dives into that connection, exploring not only grief but also the unexpected solidarity found in telling similar stories side by side.

Hey everyone, it's Jenny Nash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach, which is to say, someone who makes money, meaning, and joy out of serving writers, I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now's a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 464 - TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone. It's Jennie Nash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach, which is to say someone who makes money, meaning and joy out of serving writers. I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to book bookcoaches.com/waitlist. That's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now’s a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone. I'm Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we talk about writing all the things, short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, pitches and proposals. Today I'm here to talk with two writers who I brought together because of a very interesting coincidence; each of these writers recently published a memoir about a plane crash. They each lost somebody that they love in a plane crash, and they wrote a story about their search for understanding and their search for healing and what it all means to their lives. These two books are really different stories, which I think is so interesting and says so much about the creative process. And what's remarkable is that these two books were published just one week apart, and these two writers became aware of each other's books and became friends. I happened to have a connection to each of these writers. At several points throughout her writing process, I coached Rossana D’Antonio including the very first time she came into a classroom to write about this story. Her book is called 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash. Marty Ross-Dolen is the other author. Her book is called Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter's Search for Truth. Marty is a writer who came into my Author Accelerator book coach certification program to study how to become a book coach, and that's when I became aware of her and her story. In this conversation, Marty and Rossana come together with me to talk about grief, writing, jealousy and so many of the things that make memoir such a difficult and challenging genre to write and also such a satisfying one. I can't wait for you to listen. So let's get started. Welcome Rossana and Marty. I'm so excited to have you both here today to talk about this incredible topic. And before we get going, we are talking just days after there was a terrible plane crash in India in which a lot of people died and one man walked away, and there's a plane crash at the center of both of your books. And I just wanted to start by asking, how do you feel when this happens as it happens so many times, you know, are you okay as we sit here today? Or does this weigh on you? What is it? What is it like to sit here today? So maybe we'll start Rossana with you.

Rossana D’Antonio

Okay, well, thanks, Jennie, for inviting me on your podcast. It's really exciting to be here and to share, you know, this podcast with Marty. And, yeah, I mean, I, I agree with you. It's really, I mean, I think our memoirs—it's just so timely that they're out during this time because it's, you know, it's not just Air India. We've had several incidents within the last several years, actually, that have brought to light the strain in the aviation industry. It's been, it's been really interesting because, as it seems like there's not a day that goes by that there isn't something in the news with regards to plane crashes or plane incidents, near misses, whatever it may be. But as we experience each incident, and it becomes breaking news, and you know, we're witnessing it on live TV, it is, it is hard not to relive the experience. And I'm—I'll speak for myself—it is hard for me not to relive the experience. And in the book, I kind of talk about it because I say that it's kind of like we belong to this group that we never asked to be part of and this group is made of families of the victims of plane crashes. And, you know, the very first images that you see are of the grieving families and the pain and the grief that is stamped on their faces, the shock of it all. Plane crashes are so dramatic and so violent that it's hard not to get caught up in the whole story, and it's hard not to think of the families and want to comfort them, knowing that their hell is just starting, and all the things that they're going to have to go through, you know, with regards to the aftermath, the investigation, recovering their loved ones and their loved ones' belongings. So it is hard, but I try to, I try to focus on hoping that their recovery or their healing—the sooner they face the disaster, the tragedy—their healing can actually start.

Jennie Nash

It's got to be so hard. We'll, we'll return to all of these topics again. But Marty, you’re... what are your thoughts?

Marty Ross-Dolen

I echo what Rossana says about how—first, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you. I echo, and I love being here with Rossana, and I echo what she says as well. When I see some sort of headline or announcement that an airplane accident has taken place, my heart sinks. My stomach sinks. I know that I'm going to be in it for a couple of days, if not longer, and nowadays, with social media and the immediacy of information—and for the first time, with this devastating Air India crash, and part of it is because there was a survivor—we have information that we've never had before about the experience of it, and somehow, what came across my news feed on social media as well were videos of the inside of the cabin just before the crash. I don't even know how these were available. I don't even know if they're real because of AI—it's... but then I see that because I can't not see it, and I'm stuck with that in my brain until it goes into that little pocket that contains all those things that we see over our lifetimes that we try never to think about again. So it's hard, it's really hard, and it's really hard to get on an airplane. But that's true for everyone. That's true for everyone, but because, as Rossana describes, we're members of this group, this club that we didn't sign on for, it's probably extra hard.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, I want to come back to that "get on an airplane" thing, but just so our listeners can know about the stories that I'm referring to here, we know that you both wrote books, and they're both memoirs, and they're very, very different experiences for the reader—vibes, purposes, feelings, all of those things—and yet they share this plane crash at the center. So I wanted to ask if you would each just give a summary of what your book is about—the title, what it's about—so our readers can know, our listeners can know, what we're talking about. Your readers, our listeners. Rossana, we're kind of in a pattern here, so why don't you go first?

Rossana D’Antonio

Sure. Thanks, Jennie. So my story, my book, is 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash. And it's the story of—well, the title says it all, right? So on May 30, 2008, TACA Flight 390 departed from El Salvador International Airport en route to Miami, Florida, with an interim stop in Honduras at one of the most notoriously dangerous airports in the world, Toncontín International Airport. The area was buffeted by Tropical Storm Alma at the time. So there was a lot of wind, a lot of rain, a lot of fog, and when TACA Flight 390 attempted to land on the airport's very short runway, it overshot the runway, crashed into an embankment, and killed five people—three in the plane, including my brother, the pilot, and two in a car that were crushed when the plane landed on them. The book is my search for the truth as to what truly happened on that day. I suspected my brother would be made a scapegoat. Seventy percent of airplane accidents are blamed on the pilot, and so I just suspected that that would be our reality. And so this book is the story about me finding answers to the questions as to what happened that day.

.Jennie Nash

And in terms of the timeline of this story, when I first met you, you had just begun to write about it. I think it was 10 years. Oh, no, I've got that wrong. How long after the event? You came into a class of mine at UCLA—it was really close to the event.

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah. So it was February of 2009, so it was a little over six months. So it was still very, very raw.

Jennie Nash

I know the 10 years part is you came back to me 10 years later, having finally wrapped your hands around how you wanted to approach it. So the story as you write it is 10–15 years after the event, looking back on it and all the work that you did to understand this crash and you are uniquely positioned. And I remember thinking about this way back when I first met you. You have a very unique perspective on disaster, and you have a very unique positioning or perspective from which to look at that. Do you want to explain what that is?

Rossana D’Antonio

Sure. So I'm an engineer. I'm a civil engineer, and I worked for over three decades in the public sector at Los Angeles County Public Works. I was over—as I left county service, I was a deputy director over our emergency management business area, and so I was trained to respond to all sorts of different disasters. Our agency managed several pieces of infrastructure, including five different airports. So I was trained to not only plan, design, construct infrastructure, but also to respond to emergencies following not only natural disasters but, you know, human-made disasters. And following these disasters, I was the lead for preparing after-action reports, which essentially describe what happened, what went wrong, what went well, and what lessons learned can we actually take away from these disasters. So that was my background.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, it's an incredible connection to this tragic event. So we'll come back to that in a minute. So Marty, tell us about your book.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Sure. So my book is entitled Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter's Search for Truth. And in 1960, my grandparents were killed in an airplane accident that was a collision over New York Harbor. Their plane—they had left Columbus, Ohio. They were traveling to New York, and they were on a TWA Super Constellation, and then a United jet that had originated in Chicago was flying in. My grandparents’ plane was set for landing in LaGuardia. The United flight was set for landing in Idlewild, which is now JFK Airport. The United plane got off course and collided with my grandparents’ plane. My grandparents’ plane landed in Staten Island in an empty airfield, and the United flight actually continued for a few miles and landed in Park Slope, Brooklyn, killing people on the ground. So on the planes, there were 128 people who lost their lives, and then six people on the ground in Brooklyn. And because of that horrific situation in Brooklyn, that's where most of the sort of media was focused. There was one survivor who survived for about 24 hours—a boy—but he didn't live. My grandparents were on their way from Columbus to New York to meet for a meeting to talk about their family business, their iconic family magazine Highlights for Children, and they were looking to place the magazine on the newsstands. So they were executives with the company, and this accident was actually the largest commercial jet airplane disaster up until that time in 1960, so it was a pretty well-known, famous accident.

Jennie Nash

So you two have a very unique connection to that accident, and where you stood when you wrote about it is much further in the future from the crash itself, because your mother, if I remember correctly, was 14 years old at the time.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Right. So my mom was 14. It was six years before I was born, so obviously I didn't know my grandparents. My mom was the second oldest of five, and they moved from Columbus, Ohio, to Austin, Texas, to live with a paternal uncle and his family. And so my book is more about my experience of being raised by a mother who was in protracted mourning after having lost her parents and not had a way to process her grief as an adolescent, and as she got older. So my approach to my book is from that angle primarily, in addition to getting to know my grandmother through her letters, which was a significant goal through the writing process.

Jennie Nash

Right. So you have this reverberation through time of this accident and your connection to the work your grandparents did. You're a writer, you're an editor, you're a person who deals with story, and they were—I mean, I was such a reader of Highlights back in the day—and that, you know, you use the word iconic, you know, probably launched the careers of so many writers and thinkers, and you have a connection through time with that, which is a very unique perspective to have on your story. So you each bring these very different ways of looking at this event. So before we kind of dig into the decisions you each made around how to structure your book, and the tone and shape and all of that, part of the reason we're all talking here today is this, what I think of as a very delightful outcome of these books, which is that you know each other. You've met each other after the books were written. And oftentimes we think, when we're writing something, that well, we think several things: nobody's ever written anything like this, and everybody else has already written this story. What do I have to say? You know, those sort of back-and-forth thoughts that writers often have—Is this unique? Do I have something to add? Do I have something to say? How am I going to serve my readers, or what experience am I going to give to my readers? And then, you know just those pinging back-and-forth thoughts. And it's not very often that we get to actually meet a writer who, at the same time, in the same phase here of publishing, you know, just the same year even, has written something that is similar-ish, you know, about a plane crash, but totally different books. But I just want to ask you each about the meeting of each other and the thinking of that book, and what that's like, because it's so unusual to get to have this kind of conversation. So, you know, I imagine there are lots of things going through your head when you heard about this other book or, you know, I don't know if I have a connection to both of you. I don't know if it came from me or what, but why don't we start this time with you, Marty.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah, one of the great joys of this last year has been publishing with the same publisher as Rossana, and for us to get to know each other, because we both published our books with She Writes Press, and we just happened to be in the same cohort of summer 2025. We published in the same month, one week apart. Yeah, yeah. And I remember when we first were introducing ourselves as a group, and Rossana mentioned what her story was about. And my reaction was, is it really true? Is there really another airplane accident story amongst us? Because it is—it's not common. I mean, you don't very often come across people who have lost loved ones this way, and what became clear to me over time was that our books were very, very different. And by the nature of the fact that Rossana lost her beloved brother, who she was very close to, and I lost grandparents I had never met, our stories were just—and there's decades that separate these events—so by those natures, it was clear to me that our books were going to be different. I was excited to read Rossana's book. I was also apprehensive because, for the same reason that I described about when I'm reading about it in the news, it's just hard. But I will say, in reading Rossana's beautiful book, I immediately noticed just kindred spirits with her as a writer. It happened early in the chapters that I was reading. I had used the word lullaby to describe the sound of the engines getting going when you're sitting on a plane and it's about to take off, and sort of the sound of almost a lullaby that will put you to sleep. The person who was working with me as I was writing kept crossing that word out: “That doesn't make sense. Why would you call that a lullaby?” And I wanted it in there. It felt so right. And Rossana described that exact time, those sounds, as a lullaby. It was like; this is something that's just unique about people who have experienced what we've experienced.

Jennie Nash

Oh, wow, that's so interesting. Rossana, what about you? Your coming upon Marty's book.

Rossana D’Antonio

I know. What are the odds, right? I mean, I had never met anyone who had ever experienced a plane crash in their family. As a matter of fact, I'm going to get geeky here, but the U.S. Department of Transportation statistics indicate that one in 2 billion people will die in a plane crash. So what are the odds that, you know, life would bring Marty and I together, that had this connection, not only with the plane crash but also with you, Jennie? I mean some that came out later on. And so I thought, wow, you know, talk about serendipity and, you know, the mysterious ways of life. And although, you know, these are very different stories, I mean, they're connected at their core by a common theme, right? Very similar tragedies. And when I read Marty's book, like she says, there was—I was taken aback because there were many similar passages, you know, how we describe things or how we perceive things. There were a lot of commonalities, even though we came from it from different perspectives, which again reinforces my belief that we're part of this group that we never want to be a part of, and we'll always be connected in one way or another. I think one of the things, though, that was obvious when I read her book was that I connected, I understood, I related to her mom, obviously, right? Her mom was one that had experienced this plane crash, so it was kind of obvious the way it had impacted her, the tragedy, the aftermath, the bottling up of her feelings, PTSD, whatever—all of that I, like, clicked. But I think the most fascinating part of Marty's book was how that grief could be transferred from generation to generation. And I thought that was the fascinating thing that I learned that I really didn't know, and how these tragedies can be prolonged for, you know, generations.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, it's—well, first of all, thanks for geeking out because that is a good description of what your book is. You have a lot in your book that is kind of geeky in a—you know, you really get into the aviation industry, into the nuts and bolts of, literally, planes and how they function to the way that governments and reports about accidents function. So when reading your book, people get that layer, which is, you know, you bring to that work. So, geek out all you want. It's great. And Marty's book, by contrast, is this exploration of, you know, you drop a pebble in a pond, and how does it hit the shores? And that very emotional—you know, she had a mother immersed in grief. And what does that do to the child? And then the child's impulse to—I think it's the word search in both of your subtitles, I think it might be, or certainly the concept of it—but that idea of a quest or a journey or, you know, a need to understand. And in Rossana's case, it's what happened on that day. In Marty's case, what happened to my mom? You know, like, what was this thing that happened to my mom? And you're both seeking—that core of both of them. So I want to ask about, because I'm fascinated by this—you know, there's a raw material of a story, and how you make your choices about what the tone of that story is going to be, or the shape and structure of that story, what you want the reader to feel or to experience. Can you both go back to when you knew you were going to write about it? I think that's the first thing, is how did you catch this idea as, "This is a thing I'm going to write about"? Marty, do you want to start with that one?

Marty Ross-Dolen

Sure. I started writing after I attended a 50th anniversary memorial event for the airplane accident. And there's a sort of story that leads up to that memorial event and my attending it. But prior to that—which was, so that was 2010—prior to that, I wasn't necessarily inclined to write about it. So after attending this memorial event in 2010, a few months later, I just started telling the story of the memorial and putting some backstory into it, and that ended up being an essay that was about... I don't know, it was a long essay, like, say, 40 pages, but I was told the story was done. Because for those of us that like to use writing and words and language to try to process those things that are sitting—that we're obsessing about or sitting in our minds—I wanted to have done that and be done, because this thing was deeper than anything else that I could excavate in terms of pain in my life. So after I submitted this essay to a class that I was taking at Ohio State—writing, creative writing workshop—and at the end of the semester, the professor said to me that he thought that really what I was doing was writing a book, because there was too much material here and I hadn't done what needed to be done. My stomach sank because I didn't want to write a book. It wasn't—I wanted to be done with this topic. So I took his feedback and all of my workshop peers' feedback, and I stuck it all, the pile of papers, into a cabinet, and it stayed there for 14—well, 10—years.

Jennie Nash

Wow!

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah. And then, during that time, my mother had become the archivist for Highlights, for the family business, and was going through all of the saved artifacts and materials and papers related to the company and the family. And I had always wanted to know my grandmother better. My grandmother is the person I'm named for. I had always known a lot of stories about her, but I asked my mom if she had access to any letters that she might come across in the attics and basements that she was excavating—could I have them? So she started sending them to me. So while I had an essay in the cabinet, I had bins of letters from my grandmother in the basement. And that whole time, anybody who would ask me what I was working on, writing-wise, I'd say, "Well, you know I've got these letters in the basement..." but I never did anything with it. I just couldn't—it was too—everything was too overwhelming. And then what happened for me is that COVID—when the pandemic, you know, 2020, started—became part of our lives. I realized that it was an opportunity for me to pursue an MFA that I had wanted to do for a long time because it was going to be remote. And then I realized I've got time, and I could pull all of this out and see if it was something worth tackling. So that's the story of the decision to write. It was a slow one.

Jennie Nash

Wow. Oh, so interesting. And Rossana, well, we heard that you, six months after your brother died, you were in this class trying to learn how to write about it, which, at the time, I didn't quite put together that had been so recent. So when did you decide you were going to write about it? How did you know?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, so, I mean, I didn't set out to write a book. I just started to write. And as you know, as an engineer, I wasn't really trained to be like a memoir writer or writing essays of this type of nature. But I have to give you so much credit, because when I went to your class—and I went out of curiosity to see, well, is anything I'm scribbling down in these journals, is anything really good?—and so your class brought me together with all these other students, and, you know, reading some of the material out loud, all of a sudden, it was a four-day—I don't know if you remember—it was a four-day, one of these four-day intensive classes, and at the end, we're reading our material, and all these strangers are suddenly referring to my brother like they know him, and I recognize that it was because I was somehow relaying his story to them, and I was somehow, maybe through my work or my words, keeping him alive in some way, and that was really transformational for me, because I thought, well, maybe I can do this. And you were very kind. You said that the work was actually pretty good, and then I had some teachers that, you know, added to that. So it started out like, you know, just like playing with words, and then it turned into a grief memoir. That's the… you know, it's evolved greatly. It turned into a grief memoir, which you—I went back to you and you said, “Well, this is great, congratulations, but it's really not marketable, and if you really want to get it out into the world, you're going to have to make some changes.” And so at that point, that's when I decided, all right, I'm going to go ahead and explore. I'm going to go deeper and try to explore the truth about what happened that day. Maybe make it more scientific, more technical; maybe bring in some of the elements that were missing from this memoir. And so along with working with you and working with my editor­— Jodi Fodor—both of you, like within the last few years—I thought I had written it, I thought I was fine, I thought it was done. But then I'd come back to all of you, and you would ask me these probing questions. Perhaps I hadn't developed a scene well enough, or maybe I needed to go deeper. You know, memoir is different than what I was trained to do, and that would send me down this rabbit hole in search of answers to, you know, the questions you were asking, which, by the way, was very annoying because obviously I did not want to come to terms with, you know, the questions that you were asking, because it would, like, get me down into the feeling part of the whole memoir writing. But I did the homework, I came back with answers, and then I realized that memoir is a different animal. And I really felt that your input, your feedback, your questions, your probing, really did make it a lot richer of a story. And even through those seeking answers to the questions that you had brought me to self-discoveries, epiphanies, that perhaps… things that I had bottled up, and that even at the tail end of writing the story, there was still so much more to discover with regards to grief and healing, and which was a lesson to me that I suppose this journey never really ends.

Jennie Nash

Oh, I want to defend myself when I said, “This is great, but it's not marketable.” There is such a danger with memoir, particularly memoir around big things, and you both are writing about a big thing, and also particularly around grief, where it's so big in your own head, it takes over your whole mind or life or heart or world, that you assume that everybody else gets it. Right? Like this thing happened, and it's tragic, and in Marty's case, it reverberates through my whole life, and it's so easy to skip over the work of making that story mean something to the reader, and of just sort of resting on the fact that this dramatic thing happened in your family and your life. And there are so many manuscripts like that that when they land on the desk of an agent or the hands of a reader, it's not enough, right? It's not enough. And so that was what I was responding to you. And I know because I got to work with you, and I know from Marty, because I see the result of her finished book, you both did that really hard work, and when I say it's really hard, you just named, Rossana, why it's hard. You have to look at yourself in a way… you know you have to dig in there to things you might not really want to think about. You certainly probably don't want to feel. Do you even want to share them? All of those decisions and choices and ideas. That's what's so hard. And you both put yourself through that process. So I want to ask you each about that—what was it like? So Marty, we'll start with you. In your case, you're digging into these letters, you start then digging into the news, the articles, the pictures, the—you know, all this stuff that your mother never spoke about, and here you're digging, digging, digging. What was that like for you on an emotional level?

Marty Ross-Dolen

Ah, it took over my life for a period of time. It was very time-consuming and overwhelming, and nothing about it was easy. I spent a lot of time and tears. I had a tough time sleeping. I did a lot of the work of writing in the middle of the night. In my head, I would wake up in the middle of the night reciting something I had written the day before. It had totally taken over my brain, and fortunately, my mother is very supportive of my work and has been very supportive of the book. And while I was reading the letters—and I read them all, and there are hundreds and hundreds of letters and thousands of pages of them—my mom was available to me to have very long conversations each day through it, because I would want to share something that I read with her, check with her about a story, or she would add and fill in some cracks. And she and I spent a lot of time on the phone crying. We also spent a lot of time laughing, because my grandmother was hilarious, which helped the situation. Her letters were a joy to read. But it really—it's a commitment. It's something that anybody who decides that they're going to take on a project that's going to just sort of open up the wound and create a rawness you're not even familiar with until you're there certainly needs to have established the support system. And I also had my husband, who was incredibly willing to talk about—I mean, he's been talking about this with me and listening for, at this point, for years, but certainly all the time back then, during those days. So it's not pretty, it was hard, but there's nothing about it that doesn't feel like the biggest gift I've ever given myself, because as much as I was trying to avoid it for all those years, there was a reason. I had to do it. I had to go through the process. And also, no question, there's a healing component to writing about something like this, and that reflective writing process, when you do the deep work and try to really dig and let yourself—as Rossana was saying—you know, the annoying stuff that was really like not where you wanted to go, but that is what really changed how it helped me heal in terms of grief, but it really also changed the way I thought about the story and imagined the story, and helped me not look at it through quite as much sadness and even anger, as much as I then was able to look through more of a lens of love at all of it. And I would venture to say that Rossana may have felt that too, because I read her book, and her book is all love. So…

Jennie Nash

Yeah, so Rossana, what was that experience of writing like for you?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, well, like Marty said, you know, it was, it did become all-consuming. I became obsessed. For me, though, it was the plane crash, right? The plane crash is the common thread throughout the whole book. And I would venture to say that the crash is a character itself. I like to think of it as the crash is the villain that I battle throughout the story. Everything revolves around it, and it was all-consuming. I analyzed it a million different ways. I deconstructed it. I peeled layer after layer, fact upon fact, trying to get to the core of what truly happened, right? And then I put everything back together, reconstructing it to try to make sense of it all in an effort to find out the truth, with a little bit of fear as to what I may actually find, right? There were no guarantees that I would like what I actually discovered. And as a matter of fact, you know, working with my editor—because I got so ingrained in it, because I got so weedy and geeky and just too technical—you know, she would actually slash dozens of pages, and she said, “I'm not even going to read this because this is not memoir appropriate. You need to do better.” And I think it was at that point where I had that conversation with Jody that the crash evolved from a thing to a character that I could eventually conquer. And like Marty said, there is a healing, and at the end, I actually make peace with this experience. You know, not that I'm all healed, but I make peace with it. There's really nothing I could do. My search was for the truth, and I got the truth, and then I was able to let it go and actually continue to live, because it was so consuming that I wasn't really living until I let it go.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Can I ask, Rossana, do you think that all that writing that you did that got slashed out—do you, because I have writing also that had to be removed—do you feel that that had to be written in order to be removed, in order to get on the other side of it?

Rossana D’Antonio

Oh, that's a good question. I never thought of it that way, but yeah, it could be. I mean, it's part of the quest. It wasn't appropriate for the work that I was working on, but it did highlight facts that I needed to know in order to, like you said, let it go.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah, I just think that's interesting, because I have material that didn't end up in the book, but I know I couldn't have written the book if I hadn't written that material. It's just… yeah.

Jennie Nash

So you both talk about having arrived at a place of peace, or you use the word a “gift to yourself,” Marty. It sounds like during the writing of these books it didn't feel like that… it feels like that now. So why did you keep going when it was so hard? Marty, what would you say to that?

Marty Ross-Dolen

I think because even though it was hard, I was sensing that it was necessary. I was sensing the value of it, and I had just decided that I was committed to it, and I wasn't going to give up. I just had a sense that once I found myself on the other side, I would be in a place that would have made it all worth it.

Jennie Nash

What about you, Rossana?

Rossana D’Antonio

Well, I mean, for me, there are two things. I mean, people who know me know that once I say I'm going to do something, I cannot let it go. So that's one. But the whole purpose of going down this journey was I needed to know what happened. So not knowing what happened was just not an option. I mean, that was the outcome that I was looking for, and there was fear and pain that I knew I was going to take on. But in order to get there, I needed to go through it. So it was just something inevitable. I just knew what I was getting myself into. And I—you know—bring it on.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. So I want to ask about the shaping of the stories. You know, there are so many different shapes a story can take. And Rossana, we heard how you started with one type of book, moved into another. You cut this and that. And Marty, you had this incredible amount of primary source material. How did you make a decision? I mean, there are so many questions we could ask here, but I'm going to just focus on the plane crash as part of this discussion. How did you decide where in the story the crash would come—let's call it the scene of the crash—because it appears in very different places in your books, and in some ways, that colors the tone or form or experience for the reader of that book. So, Marty, how did you make that decision? Because the crash comes quite late in your book, where we actually see it. And it struck me when I was reading your book that that was exactly right for your story, because your mother never spoke about it. You didn't know about it. It wasn't a thing you were playing over in your head, and so the not feeling the crash or knowing about the crash was part of the story of it, in a way. So how did you make that decision??

Marty Ross-Dolen

I will say that the essay that I wrote in 2010 that I described as the foundational essay for the book was largely what part five of my book is. So in many ways, I had written the end of the book. That was the first thing I wrote. And then figuring out where to put what was really the largest challenge. And I ultimately started to realize that I knew that I was coming to the book with the goal of not having the book be about my grandparents’ death, but having it be about their life, particularly my grandmother's life. And so I wanted to downplay, even though the details of the accident and my discovering it were critical to the story, I wanted to downplay their death, because that's what I was trying to do for myself, because I had grown up my whole life only knowing their death, and that wasn't what I wanted people to know about myself, my mother, or my grandmother. So that was probably the biggest reason that I decided to put it at the end. And then also I put it at the end because I did want to have some buildup. I sensed some value in the reader getting to know the characters well before finding out what actually happened, and I also wanted it to correlate with my own—as you said—my own discovery of the story, which happened later in my life.

Jennie Nash

Well, then there's this—yeah, there's this cool thing that I thought was really cool that happens in your book, which is your grandparents have this magazine, this business, and they make a decision: “Oh, maybe we should see if we could get this in—was it dentist's offices or, you know, doctors' offices waiting rooms?” And then, you know, they're on this plane to try to get it on newsstands. And we know the incredible success that those ideas went on to have in terms of a business. You know, the seeds that they planted bore incredible fruit. And so that part of the story, I thought, was really beautifully handled as well, because we all know what Highlights was and what it became. And then to find out those were their ideas, and then they died. They were not the ones that saw that through. There's something so powerful about that, that their ideas were so strong. They were so prescient. They were, you know, they created this thing that reverberated—there's that word again—through so many people's lives. I thought that was really a beautiful touch to how you placed that plane crash too.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Oh, thank you. That's interesting to think of it from that perspective because, in addition to my not wanting the story to be about my grandparents’ deaths solely, it was also not meant to be the story of the history of Highlights. It was meant to be who they were. And, you know, it really is more of a focus on my grandmother in relation to the company, but they saved the company. And there were many times in the 1950s when they were struggling to keep it from bankruptcy and the decision—the sort of… actually, it was an epiphany of a salesperson who came up with the idea of selling through doctors' and dentists' offices. But their decision to implement that happened a couple of years before they died, and that's when they actually started to see the company thrive. So they died when the company was thriving, and they were, just as you said, pursuing more. Because the whole Highlights is a mission-driven company. Our whole goal is to have material that will help children become their best selves. So the more children that it touches, the more successful the mission. And so, yes, I mean, it is part of the story as much as maybe I see it as separate. It's just not separate. But making decisions about how much of one thing, you know, is this book supposed to have? I mean, there were people who wanted me to write the history of Highlights more than I did, for sure. There were people who wanted more airplane accident, for sure. And I wanted more of my grandmother, my mother, and me, so…

Jennie Nash

Right.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Yeah, it was a balance.

Jennie Nash

Right. Well, you pulled it off beautifully.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Thank you.

Jennie Nash

And Rossana, in your book, the plane crash literally starts on page one—or even in the title. How did you…? And I feel like it was maybe always that way. Was it always that way? Was that one thing that never changed?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, I was just going to tell you, the book went through a ton of revisions, but the one thing that remained constant was the opening scene, which was the timeline of the 26 seconds that describe touchdown to impact. And I remember reading that in your class early on, and there was a sense of shock from the reception from the other folks in the class, and I knew that that's how I wanted to start the book. I mean, that's the premise that sets everything in motion. So that was the one constant, and I'm pretty proud of that.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting. So we know from the very beginning what happens. And then you circle back to talk about how you learned of the crash, which is a very dramatic story as well. So how did you hold the tension through the rest of the book? When the reader knows what happened, this is not a mystery, then you have to construct the story in such a way to hold the reader—you know, what else are we going to root for or learn or find out? How did you pull that off? Because you did.

Rossana D’Antonio

Well, the mystery is, you know, what happened? The mystery—I mean, I talk about how the industry had, continues to have, a tendency to blame one individual, which is the pilot, the last person that touches this very complex system that is the aviation industry. And so I kind of made the industry somewhat of a villain. And this quest for me to seek the truth and hopefully to—you know, I suppose the reader wanted me to be right that the industry was somehow to blame. And so that's how I thread the story, in addition to the fact that, you know, there were facts that kind of reinforced my whole premise, right? I mean, the accident report was never—so the accident happened outside of the country. And so here in the United States, the NTSB will always do an investigation and release the report as public information, as a public document. But outside of the country, the accident investigation—although the NTSB and the FAA participated in it—the lead was the Salvadoran Civil Aviation Authority, and they opted not to make that investigation report public. And so to me, that screamed of a conspiracy. So I thread that into the whole story. And, you know, my family gets the report through indirect means, and I'm able to dive into it, and lo and behold, I discover smoking guns in the report that indicate that the industry lied and covered up. And there were conspiracies, which are not—they're not unique to this one accident. And that's the other thing I do in the book, is I bring in parallel accidents here in the United States that reinforce that the industry is a global industry, and that corporate greed is alive and well in this industry as well.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, indeed, your book is revelatory that way. And that leads me to a question I want to ask you both, which I'll start with you, Rossana. Given how hard it was to write the story, and to be in it, and to think about it, and how this plane crash dominated your thinking for so long, what do you think about when you step on a plane? Is it hard for you?

Rossana D’Antonio

Well, there's a little trepidation. Yes, absolutely. Every time I have to fly, there's a thinking in the back of the mind, right? I think I had a conversation with you, Jennie, where we talked about when I crossed the threshold, whether we like it or not, we are relinquishing all sense of control to those people who are flying the plane and to everybody else in the industry who helps support that pilot and co-pilot, and we have to trust that everyone has done their job. And we've discovered with recent incidents that that isn't always true. So, I mean, there are things that I do. I mean, I try to sit in the exit row. From now on, I will be sitting on 11A, you know? And, you know, I do pay attention to the safety message that the flight attendants do before we depart. I think that's a common courtesy. And by the way, you know, a lot of us feel that we're professional flyers, but we've never been tested under the most dire of conditions in an accident, so we just assume we know what to do. But do we really? And hopefully we'll never be, you know, required to put that knowledge into use. I text my husband, “We're leaving now, taking off,” and then when we land, I tell him that we've landed safe and sound, because there's no guarantee, there's no guarantee that we will make it to our destination. I like to believe—you know, we've been conditioned to believe—that flying is the safest mode of travel, and I believe that, I really do. I don't want to dispel that. I don't want to cause fear. But I do also believe that the industry is under tremendous strain. Those two things can be true at the same time. We can't just say, “I'm not going to travel.” That's just not realistic. And so I choose to trust just like my brother trusted the system when he was alive. I choose to trust the system, and we'll leave it at that.

Jennie Nash

I love that. Marty, what about you?

Marty Ross-Dolen

I find, interestingly, I have a lot more anxiety leading up to flying than actually while I'm flying. In the days before, I can't really focus. Part of it is this feeling of needing to get every little thing in order. And it just sort of takes over in my mind. So the thing that I like the least about flying is the days before I actually do it. And then I have a tradition that I insist that anybody flying with me, that I know personally, also take part in, which is that I kiss the plane, kiss my hand, and place it on the outside of the plane. I think that that's super superstitiously protective. And then I actually feel some relief once I'm in my seat that it's going to move forward. And maybe, maybe part of that is that whatever control I've had up to that point, I can let go. But I do, you know, my husband always says it's safer to fly than drive. And I think that that's true. I'm not a great passenger in a car, for sure, but I'm with Rossana. You trust the system, and you have to live, and you can't choose not to travel or not use a mode of transportation. It's just the way our society and lives are. And I guess I feel grateful and fortunate that we have those options. So, yeah.

Jennie Nash

I love that! Kiss the plane. I might start doing that. I cannot recommend both of these books more. They're so beautiful, they're so different. Reading them together would be incredibly powerful if that's something listeners are inclined to do. But just to remind folks, Marty's book is called Always There, Always Gone. Rossana's book is called 26 Seconds. Thank you both for coming on with each other to talk about this unique connection you have to each other and also your individual books. Can you tell folks where they can go to learn more other than the obvious, go-buy-the-book places? Marty, why don't you go first?

Marty Ross-Dolen

Sure. Thank you. All of my information—there's a lot to learn through my website, which is martyrossdolen.com. It's M-A-R-T-Y-R-O-S-S-D-O-L-E-N.com, where there's things to learn about Highlights, there's book club questions, there's Q&A’s, just lots of things. There are links to things I've done and all places where you can find the book.

Jennie Nash

We'll link to that in the show notes. It's just a beautiful book about mothers and daughters and grandmothers and history and our place in it, and grief and life and all of it. It's a beautiful read. And Rossana, where can people find your geeky and soulful book about your beautiful brother, Caesar [Captain Cesare D'Antonio], and his love of flying and this tragedy that unfolded and how you made sense of it? Where can they learn more?

Rossana D’Antonio

Yeah, thank you. So my website is rossanadantonio.com—that's R-O-S-S-A-N-A-D-A-N-T-O-N-I-O.com—and you can find all sorts of information there as well.

Jennie Nash

Well, thank you both for talking to me today.

Rossana D’Antonio

Thank you, Jennie. Thank you, Marty.

Marty Ross-Dolen

Thank you, Jennie. Thank you, Rossana. It's been a pleasure.

Rossana D’Antonio

It's been fun.

Jennie Nash

And for our listeners, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Narrator

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

This week’s episode explores how to tap into your unique creative genius and align it with your values to become the writer you were meant to be. Jennie Nash and Dr. Diana Hill, a clinical psychologist, dive into the Wise Effort Method. Hear about Diana's journey of overcoming her book writing challenges and how Jennie guided her through unleashing her writing genius. They also discuss how to clear mental blocks, focus creative energy, and integrate daily rituals to enhance your writing process — and your life.

In This Episode, We Explore:

* How to identify and overcome your mental stories and obstacles in writing

* Strategies to open up creatively and align your work with your values

* Practical ways to harness and focus your unique genius energy

* The importance of ritual and community in the writing process

Books Mentioned

Wise Effort: How to Focus Your Genius Energy on What Matters Most

In the Absence of the Ordinary – by Francis Weller

Thinking of starting a book?

Join the September 16th virtual writing workshop with Jennie and Diana:

https://drdianahill.com/wise-effort-book-idea-lab

Jess here! A while back, Sarina and KJ talked about how much they enjoyed Tess Gerritsen’s novel, The Spy Coast, and Sarina reassured KJ she’d enjoy book two of the series even more. I had never read a Tess Gerritsen novel, and while I’d heard her name before and vaguely understood she wrote thrillers, I was starting from square one when I downloaded the audio version of The Spy Coast. Now, I’m not an international spy thriller kind of gal. In the abstract, I understand the allure of books like Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy or Six Days of the Condor. Spies! Intrigue! International [almost exclusively men] of mystery! But they have never really floated my proverbial boat. That said, I loved Tess Gerritsen’s spies and the world they inhabit. There’s a sense of place - nay, a downright LOVE of place - and a retiring, rural New England domesticity that spoke to this retiring, rural New England reader.

Book two, The Summer Guests, is even more rooted in Maine, on its history and the social dynamics of its natives and its summer people.

Once I tore through those first two books, I went back to Gerritsen’s first book, The Surgeon, one of Time Magazine’s top 100 thriller/mystery books of all time and the first in the Rizzoli & Isles series, consequently made into a long-running television series.

Gerritsen has a fascinating career trajectory, lots to talk about regarding pantsing and plotting, where the ideas come from, and lots of other geeky details about the writing life. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

Find Tess at Tessgerritsen.com, or on Bluesky, @TessGerritsen

Transcript below!

EPISODE 462 - TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone, it's Jennie Nash, founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, the company I started more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. In October, we'll be enrolling a new cohort of certification students who will be going through programs in either fiction, nonfiction, or memoir, and learning the editorial, emotional, and entrepreneurial skills that you need to be a successful book coach. If you've been curious about book coaching and thinking that it might be something you want to do for your next career move, I'd love to teach you more about it, you can go to bookcoaches.com/waitlist to check out the free training I have—that's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. The training is all about how to make money, meaning, and joy out of serving writers. Fall is always a great time to start something new. So if you're feeling called to do this, go check out our training and see if this might be right for you. We'd love to have you join us.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.

Jess Lahey

Hey, this is Jess Lahey, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is the podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, poetry, prose, narrative nonfiction, fiction, creative nonfiction, queries, proposals. This is the podcast about writing all the things. More than anything else, this is the podcast about the writing life and about getting the work done. I am Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my journalism at The Atlantic and The Washington Post, and my bi-weekly (formerly bi-weekly) column at The New York Times, The Parent-Teacher Conference, ran for about three years I am joined today by Sarina Bowen, who has written 50-odd books. She has written lots and lots of romance, and her most recent addition to the world of publishing has been her thrillers, Dying to Meet You and The Five Year Lie. And she has a book coming out this fall called Thrown for a Loop. The reason I am recording this intro on my own—which, as you may know if you've been listening, is highly unusual for us—is because I know myself. And I know when I'm really excited to talk to someone on the podcast; I'm going to flub the intro. I'm going to forget something. I'm going to forget to introduce them altogether. So today, I'm doing that first, so I don't mess it up. A while ago on the podcast, you may have heard Sarina and KJ read some books by an author named Tess Gerritsen. I had heard of Tess Gerritsen, but I had never read any of her books. I just hadn't yet. I haven't read Nora Roberts yet. I haven't read—there are lots of authors I haven't read yet. And sometimes you don't even know where to start. So when Sarina and KJ recommended Tess Gerritsen's new series set in Maine—the first one being The Spy Coast and the second one being The Summer Guests—I figured I had a good place to start. And you know, as a New Englander, I love a good book about New England, and that was the start of my interest in Tess Gerritsen's work. I have gone back to the beginning and started with her book The Surgeon, which was her first book in the series that became the Rizzoli and Isles Series, as well as a television show. Tess Gerritsen has a—she's written through 33 books at this point. And as I now know, she has also directed a documentary called Magnificent Beast about pigs, which I listened to this morning while I was vacuuming the house. I loved it. She also—she has a lot to say about genre, about publishing, about second careers, about a writing place, and about process. So let's just jump right into it. I am so excited to introduce to you today, Tess Gerritsen. So from the perspective of what our listeners love—this podcast, the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast —is super geek. People who love the nuts and bolts and the dorky details of the writing life. Sarina has a past life in finance, and so she tends to be, like, our “no, but let's talk about the numbers” kind of person. I'm just the research super dork, which is why I spent my morning watching your documentary about pigs.

Tess Gerritsen

Oh my god! (Laughing)

Jess Lahey

Magnificent Beast. I—I've joked in the past that if I could, I would probably just research things in—in, you know, maybe there'll be a book out there, maybe there won't, but I would research things and—and just learn as much as I could. And so I loved—loved—your Magnificent Beast documentary. I thought it was fantastic. But one of the reasons that we wanted to talk to you, just from the very beginning, is that we feel like you do some pretty incredible world-building and relationship-building with your places and your characters. And so I just—I would love to start there, mainly with the idea of starting with the real nuts and bolts stuff, which is, like, what does an average writing day look like for you? And how do you, sort of—how do you set that up? What does it look like, if you have an average writing day? Maybe you don't.

Tess Gerritsen

Well, it's hard to describe an average writing day, because every day is—there are days when you sit at your desk and you just, you know, pull your hair. And there are days when you get distracted by the news. And there are many days when I just do not want to write. But when I'm writing, the good days are when my characters are alive and talking to me. And it's—it's—you talked about world-building and character-building. That is really key to me. What are they saying to me? Can I hear their voices? And it sounds a little—a little crazy, because I am hearing voices. But it's those voices that really make characters come alive.

Jess Lahey

I—You have said in other interviews that you are very much—sorry to those of you who hate the terms—that you are very much a pantser. And you are sitting on this interview with a consummate plotter. Sarina is our consummate plotter. So could you talk a little bit about how those character—how those voices—influence, you know, the pantsing of the—of the book, and—and how that works for you?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I mean, it is weird that I am a pantser. And it's funny—I think that people who are plotters tend to be people who are in finance or in law, because they're used to having their ducks lined up, you know. They—they want everything set up ahead of time, and it makes them feel comfortable. And I think a large part of becoming a pantser is learning to be comfortable with unpredictability. Learning to just let things happen, and know you're going to take wrong turns, know you're going to end up in blind alleys—and yet just keep on forging ahead and change direction. So I suppose that what helps me become a pantser, as I said, is hearing a character's voice. If, for instance, when I wrote The Spy Coast, the first thing I heard about that book was Maggie Bird's voice. And she just said, “I'm not the woman I used to be.” And that's an opening there, right? Because you want to find out, Maggie, who did you used to be? And why do you sound so sad? So a lot of it was just—just getting into her head and letting her talk about what a day-to-day life is, which is, you know, raising chickens and collecting eggs and becoming—and being—a farmer. And then she does something surprising in that very first chapter. There's a fox that's killing her chickens, so she grabs her rifle and kills it with one shot. And that opens up another thing, like—how are you, a 62-year-old woman, able to take out a rifle and kill a fox with one shot? So it's—it's those things. It's those revelations of character. When they come out and they tell you something, or they show you they—they have a skill that you weren't aware of, you want to dig deeper and find out, you know, where did they get that skill?

Sarina Bowen

And that is a really fun way to show it. I mean, you're talking today with two people who have also kept chickens.

Multiple Speakers

(All laughing)

Jess Lahey

And had foxes take their chickens, actually.

Sarina Bowen

Oh yes, because the two go together.

Tess Gerritsen

Yes.

Sarina Bowen

But yes, I admit I have never shot a fox, and maybe wouldn't.

Jess Lahey

I have yelled very loudly at a fox, and he actually—I have to say—really mad respect for the fox, because he took one look at me—he did drop the chicken that I was yelling at him for grabbing—and then he went across the street, around the neighbor's house, around the back of the other neighbor's house, and came at the exact same chicken from the other side of the house, where I couldn't see him out the window.

Tess Gerritsen

Oh, they are so smart. They are so smart.

Jess Lahey

So smart. Sarina, it sounded like you had something— you had something you wanted to add, and I interrupted you when we were talking about pantsing and we were talking about world-building and characters speaking to you.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I just had thought that it was a lovely moment to explain why I was so excited to read this book after I heard Tess speak at Thriller Fest 2024, in a packed room where there was nowhere to sit except on the floor. You told the audience a little bit of a story from your real life that—that made you want to write that book. And I wonder if you could tell us what that was, because for me—I mean, we were only five minutes into your talk, and I'm like, oh, I'm—I'm going to download that tonight.

Tess Gerritsen

Well, yes, it was. A lot of my books come from ideas that I've been stewing over for years. I have a folder called the ideas folder. It's an actual physical manila folder. And if I see something in an article or a newspaper or a magazine, I'll just rip it out and stick it in there, and it sometimes takes a long time before I know how to turn this into a book. So the idea for The Spy Coast is a little bit of obscure knowledge that I learned 35 years ago, when I first moved to Maine. My husband is a medical doctor. He opened up a practice, and when he would bring in new patients, he would always get an occupational history. And he used to get this answer—this very strange answer—from his new patients. They would say, “I used to work for the government, but I can't talk about it.” And after he heard that three times, he thought, what town did we land in? And who are these people? And we later found out that on our very short street, on one side of us was a retired OSS person, and on the other side was retired CIA. A realtor told us that our town was full of CIA retirees. So, I mean, of course you want to ask, why did they get here? What are they doing here? What are their lives like? I knew there was a book in there, but I didn't know what that book was. I needed 35 years to come up with the idea. And what I really needed to do was become old and—and realize that as you get older, especially women, we become invisible. People don't pay attention to us. We are over the hill. You know, everybody looks at the young, pretty chicks, but once you start getting gray hair, you fade into the background. And with that experience myself; I began to think more and more about what it's like to be retired. What is it like to be retired from a job that was maybe dangerous, or exciting, or something that you really risked your life to—to achieve? So that was—that was the beginning of The Spy Coast. What happens to CIA retirees—especially women—who are now invisible? But that makes them the best spies of all.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, and we have—we did this really cool thing, this really fun thing for us on the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. It's like a supporter-only thing, where we call First Pages, where very brave authors—very brave writers—submit their first page to us, and we talk about it and decide whether or not we'd want to turn the page. And you have an incredible skill on your first pages. You're very, very good at first pages. And I was thinking about The Summer Guests, that you had this wonderful line that I'm going to read now:

Purity, Maine, 1972. On the last day of his life, Purity police officer Randy Pelletier ordered a blueberry muffin and a cup of coffee at the Marigold Café,

Which immediately reminded me of my very, very favorite line from all of literature—my very favorite first line—which is Irving’s first line from A Prayer for Owen Meany, in which he ruins the story for you right there in the first line:

I am doomed to remember a boy with a wrecked voice—not because of his voice, or because he was the smallest person I ever knew, or even because he was the instrument of my mother’s death, but because he is the reason I believe in God.

There is this incredible power to first lines. And I'm sort of wondering where—how first lines happen for you. Do they happen first? Do they happen last? Do they happen along the way?

Tess Gerritsen

First lines usually happen last. I—it's—I will write the whole book, and I'll think, something's missing in that first chapter. How do I open this up? And, you know, there are things that make lines immediately hypnotic, and one of those things is an inherent contradiction—something that makes you think, wait, okay, you start off this way, but then all of a sudden, the meaning of that line switches. So, yeah, it starts off with, you know, this guy's going to die. But on that last day of his life, he does something very ordinary. He just orders coffee at the local café. So I think it's that contradiction that makes us want to read more. It's also a way to end chapters. I think that—that if you leave your reader with a sense of unease—something is about to go wrong, but they don't know what it is yet—or leave them with an unanswered question, or leave them with, as I said, a contradiction—that is what's page-turning. I think that a lot of thriller writers in particular mistake action for—for being—for being interesting. A car chase on the page is really very boring. But what's interesting is something that—you could feel that tension building, but you don't know why.

Sarina Bowen

I have joked sometimes that when I get stuck on a plot, sometimes I will talk at my husband and—and say, “you know, I'm stuck here.” And he always says, “And then a giant squid attacked.” And it—of course I don't write books that take place where this is possible, so—but it never fails to remind me that, like, external action can sometimes be just, you know, totally pointless. And that if you're stuck, it's because one of your dominoes isn't leaning, you know, in the right spot. So...

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah, it's—it's not as much fun seeing that domino fall as seeing it go slowly tilting over. You know, I really learned this when I was watching a James Bond movie. And it starts off—you know, the usual James Bonds have their cold open to those action and chasing and death-defying acts. I found that—I find that really, in that movie anyway—I was like, Ho hum. Can we get to the story? And I found the time when I was leaning forward in my theater seat, watching every moment, was really a very quiet conversation aboard a train between him and this woman who was going to become his lover. That was fascinating to me. So I think that that transfers to book writing as well. Action is boring.

Jess Lahey

You and Sarina do something that I feel, as a writer; I would probably not be very good at, which is creating that unease. I—Sarina in particular does this thing... I've read every one of Sarina's books, as a good friend is supposed to do. And I text her, and I say, Why don't they just talk about it and just deal? Get it out in the open! And she's like, you know, we just got to make these people uncomfortable. And you both have this incredible talent for helping—keeping the reader, uh, along with you, simply because there is this sense of unease. We're slightly off-kilter the whole time. And yet in me, as a people pleaser, that makes me very uncomfortable. I want people to be happy with each other. So how do you—if you get to a place where you feel like maybe things aren't off-kilter enough, or things aren't off-balance enough—how do you introduce a little bit of unease into your—into your story?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I think it comes down to very small points of conflict—little bits of tension. Like, we call it micro-tension. And I think those occur in everyday life all the time. For instance, you know, things that happen that really don't have any big consequence, but are still irritating. We will stew about those for—for a while. And, you know, I used to write romance as well, so I understand entirely what Sarina is doing, because romance is really about courtship and conflict. And it's the conflict that makes us keep reading. We just—we know this is the courtship. So there's always that sense of it's not quite there, because once the characters are happy, the story is over, right?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Multiple Speakers

(All laughing)

Sarina Bowen

Also, writing the ends of romance novels is the least interesting part. Like, what...? Once the conflict is resolved, like, I cannot wait to get out of there.

Tess Gerritsen

Right, exactly. You know, I—I pay attention to my feelings when I'm reading a book, and I've noticed that the books that I remember are not the books with happy endings, because happiness is so fleeting. You know, you can be happy one second, and then something terrible will happen. You'll be unhappy. What lasts for us is sadness, or the sense of bittersweet. So when I read a book that ends with a bittersweet ending—such as, you know, Larry McMurtry Lonesome Dove—I ended up crying at the end of that book, and I have never forgotten that ending. Now, if everybody had been happy and there had been nobody to drag all those miles at the end, I would have forgotten that book very quickly. So I think—I try—I always try to leave the end of the book either bittersweet—I mean, you want to resolve all the major plot points—but also leave that sense of unease, because people remember that. And it also helps you, if you have a sequel.

Sarina Bowen

That's so interesting you've just brought up a couple of really interesting points, because there is a thriller—I actually write suspense now—and one of the books that so captured my attention about five years ago was killing it on the charts. And I thought it was actually a terrible book, but it nailed the bittersweet ending. Like, the premise was solid, and then the bittersweet ending was perfect, and the everything between the first chapter and the last chapter was a hot mess, but—but—um, that ending really stuck with me. And I remember carrying it around with me, like, Wow, they really nailed that ending. You know, and—and maybe that has, like, legs in terms of, like, talking about it. And, you know, if it—if—if it's irritating enough, like, the tension is still there—enough to, like, make people talk about it—it could actually affect the performance of that book. But also, um, one thing that I really love about this series—you have—what is the series title for the...?

Tess Gerritsen

Martini—The Martini Club.

Sarina Bowen

The Martini Club, right? So The Martini Club is two books now. I inhaled the first one last summer, and I inhaled the second one this summer. And The Martini Club refers to this group of friends—these retired spies. And of course, there are two completely different mysteries in book one and book two. And I noticed a couple of things about the difference between those mysteries that was really fun. So in the first case—or in one of the two cases, let's see—in one of them, the thing that happens in their town is actually, like, related to them. And in the other one, it's kind of not. So to me, that felt like a boundary expansion of your world and your system. But also, I just love the way you leaned into the relationship of these people and their town in such a way. And how did you know to do that? Like, how—what does your toolbox say about how to get that expansiveness in your character set? Like, you know, to—to find all the limits of it?

Tess Gerritsen

That—you know, so much is like—it's like asking a pole-vaulter how they do it. They just—they have just—I guess its muscle memory. You don't really know how you're doing it, but what I did know was—with age, and because I love these characters so much—it really became about them and about what is going to deepen their friendship? What kind of a challenge is going to make them lean into each other—lean on each other? That's really what I was writing about, I think, was this circle of friends, and—and what you will do, how much you will sacrifice, to make sure your friends are safe. No, you're right—the second book is much more of a classic mystery. Yeah—a girl disappears. I mean, there was—there were—there were CIA undertones in that, because that becomes an important part of the book. But I think that what people are—when people say they love this book—they really talk about the characters and that friendship. And we all want friends like this, where we can go and—and—and have martinis together, and then if we—one of us needs to—we'll go help them bury a body.

Multiple Speakers

(All laughing)

Tess Gerritsen

That's—they all have shovels, and they're willing to do it. That's the kind of friendship—friends—we want.

Jess Lahey

Well, and that's funny you mention that—I had an entire question—it wasn't even a question, it was a statement—in here about friendships and being grateful to you for the reminder about the importance of relationships. And this entire podcast was born out of the fact that we were talking writing all the time, and we just wanted an official way to sit down once a week and actually talk about the work. And your work is suffused with just these incredible relationships—whether that's the Rizzoli and Isles—you know, in your first—in the one of your other series—and I'm just—I'm very grateful for that, because we—especially—I think I re—I really crave books about female relationships, especially about older female relationships. And I have been loving your books, and I've—like, as I may have mentioned to you in my initial email—I had—I'm so sorry—never read your books before. And I admitted in the introduction that there are lots of very, very famous authors whose books I have never read. And it's always so exciting to me to dive into someone's series and realize, oh, this person really touches on themes that mean a lot to me, and I can already tell that I'm going to be enjoying a lot of their books to come forward. So thank you for all of the great descriptions of relationships and how we do rely on each other for various aspects of just how we get through all of this stuff.

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah—get through life. But you know what's funny about it is that it didn't start that way. For instance, let's go back to Rizzoli and Isles. The very first time they both appear in a book is in The Apprentice. And they don't start off being friends. They start off being—they're so different. As the TV producer once said, “you’ve really written about Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock.” That's okay—they are—in the books. They are not natural friends. But like real-life friendships, sometimes—just kind of develop slowly, and—and they have their ups and downs. So there are times when—when Jane and Maura are barely speaking to each other because of conflicts they have. But by the time book twelve comes around—or maybe book seven comes around—you know that they would risk their lives for each other. So I think that if you're writing a series like Rizzoli and Isles, or like The Martini Club, it really helps to develop the friendship on the fly and see how they react to certain stresses. The next book, which I just turned in, called The Shadow Friends—it even put—pushes them even further, and it really—it really strains a marriage, because it's—it's more about Ingrid, and an old lover comes back into her life. She used to—they were both spies—and he is, like, hot, hot, hot—Antonio Banderas kind of guy. And here's Ingrid, married to Lloyd, you know, who's just a sweet analyst who cooks dinner for her every night. And I—when I was coming up with that story, I thought, I want to write a book about their marriage. So it wasn't—the plot wasn't about, oh, you know, international assassinations, even though that does occur in the book. It's really about the story of a marriage.

Jess Lahey

And it gives you, it gives you added unease. You know, if you have your two characters not speaking to each other, and you know your readers love those characters and crave those characters to be getting along at some point, then that's just another reason that we're following along. I was just thinking about, uh, Michael Connelly, uh, book the other day, because I really, really like the series he did with Renée Ballard and her relationship with the Bosch character, and how that series is totally about crime, but yet it's also very much about the relationship. And I think I follow—I continue to read those because of the relationship between those two human beings, and less so because of the murder mystery sort of stuff.

Tess Gerritsen

I think it really becomes important if you're dealing also with Hollywood television series. I still remember what the producer first said when he called me up about Rizzoli and Isles. He said, "I love your girls, and I think they belong on TV.” He didn't say, I love your plots. He didn't say, I love your mysteries, you know, all your intricate ups and downs. It was really about the girls. So if you hope to sell to a television series, really, it's about characters again.

Jess Lahey

Absolutely.

Sarina Bowen

I was going to ask about longevity, because you have so many books, and you're so obviously still invigorated by the process, or there wouldn't be a book three that you just turned in. So how have you been able to avoid just being sick to death of—of writing suspense novel after suspense novel?

Tess Gerritsen

I refused. That's what it is. You know, I—I don't—I guess I could say that I have a little bit of ADHD when it comes to—to the books I write. I cannot—after 13 books of Rizzoli and Isles, I just had a different idea. And it takes—it takes a certain amount of backbone to say no to your publisher, to your editor, to people who are going, well, when's the next one in this series coming out? And to be able to say, I need a break. I need to do something completely different. So over—how many years I've been a writer—almost 40 now—I've written science fiction and historicals and a ghost story and romantic suspense and spy novels and medical thrillers and crime novels. I've been all over the place, but each one of those books that took me out of what I was expected to do was so invigorating. It was a book that I needed to write. As an example, I wrote a book called Playing with Fire. Nobody wanted that book. Nobody expected that book. It was a historical about World War II, and about music—about the power of music—and having to do with the death camps. I remember my publisher going, "What are you doing?" And, you know, it's—it's true—they're—they—they are marketers, and they understood that that book would not sell as well, and it didn't. But it still remains one of my favorite books. And when you want to write a book, you need to write that book. That's all—even—even if nobody wants it.

Jess Lahey

I actually was—I'm so pleased that this came up, because that was actually going to be my question, because both you and Sarina have done this—done, you know, 90 degrees—whether it's out of, you know, one genre into another—and that, to me, requires an enormous amount of courage. Because you know you have people expecting things from you. And you in particular, Tess, have people saying, "No, I want the next one. I love this relationship. I want the next one." And—and dealing—you're not just dealing with the disappointment of whether it's an agent or an editor, but the disappointment of fans. And that's a pressure as well. So when I used to do journalism, I remember a question I asked of another journalist was, "How do you continue to write without fear of the comment section?" And essentially, for us, that's our—you know, those are our readers. So how do you find that thing within yourself to say, no, this really is the thing that I need to be writing now?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, that is a really—it's a really tough decision to buck the trend or buck what everybody's expecting, because there's a thing in publishing called the death spiral. And if your book does not sell well, they will print fewer copies for the next one. And then that won't sell well. So you start—your career starts to go down the drain. And that is a danger every time you step out of your tried and true series and do something out of—you know, completely out of the ordinary. I think the reason I did it was that I really didn't give a damn. It was—it was like, Okay, maybe this will kill my career, but I've got to write this book. And it was always with the idea that if my publisher did not want that, I would just self-publish. I would just, you know, find another way to get it out there. And I—I was warned, rightly so, that your sales will not be good for this book, and that will—it will hurt the next contract. And I understood that. But it was the only way I could keep my career going. Once you get bored, and you're—you're trapped in a drawer, I think it shows up in your writing.

Jess Lahey

I had this very conversation with my agent. The—my first book did well. And so then, you know, the expectation is, I'll write like part two of that, or I'll write something for that exact same audience again. And when I told my agent—I said, "You know, this book on substance use prevention and kids—I—it's—I have to write it. And I'm going to write it even, you know, if I have to go out there and sell it out of the trunk of my car." And she said, "Okay, then I guess we're doing this." And yes...

Tess Gerritsen

(Laughing) They had their best wishes at heart.

Jess Lahey

And honestly, I love—I loved my book that did well. But The Addiction Inoculation is the book I'm most proud of. And, you know, that's—yeah, that's been very important to me.

Tess Gerritsen

I often hear from writers that the book that sold the fewest copies was one that was—were their favorites. Those are the ones that they took a risk on, that they—I mean, they put their heart and soul into it. And maybe those hurt their careers, but those are the ones that we end up being proud of.

Jess Lahey

I like to remind Sarina of that, because I do remember we text each other constantly. We have a little group, the three of us, a little group text all day long. And there was—I remember when she first wrote a male-male romance, she was scared. She was really scared that this was going to be too different for her readers. And it ended up being, I think, my favorite book that she's ever written, and also a very important book for her in terms of her career development and growth, and what she loves about the work that she does. And so I like to remind her every once in a while, remember when you said that really scared you and you weren't sure how your readers were going to handle it?

Sarina Bowen

Right? Well, I also did that in the middle of a series, and I went looking for confirmation that that is a thing that people did sometimes, and it was not findable. You know, that was...

Jess Lahey

What? Change things up in terms of—change things up in the middle of a series?

Sarina Bowen

In the middle of a series. And anyway, that book still sells.

Tess Gerritsen

That is a great act of courage, but it's also an act of confidence in yourself as a writer. There are ways to do it. I think some writers will just adopt a different pen name for something that's way out there.

Jess Lahey

It's funny you should say... it's funny you should say that.

Sarina Bowen

Well, no, and I never have done that, but, um—but anyway, yeah, that's hard. I, uh...

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

It's hard to know. Sometimes...

Jess Lahey

We entertain it all the time. We do talk about that as an option all the time. Shouldn't we just pick up and do something completely different? One of the things that I also—I mentioned at the top of the podcast about, you know, you went off—not only have you done lots of different things in terms of your writing—but you went off and you did an entire documentary about pigs. I have—I have to ask you where on earth that came from and why. And it is a total delight, as I mentioned, and I have already recommended it to two people that I know also love the topic. But, you know, to go off—and especially when you usually, as some of us have experienced—our agents saying, so when am I going to see more pages? or when am I going to see the next book? And you say, I'm really sorry, but I have to go off and film this documentary about pigs.

Tess Gerritsen

Yes. Well, you know, I was an anthropology major in college, and I've always been interested in the pig taboo. You know, back then, everybody just assumed it was because, yeah, it was disease or they're dirty animals—that's why they're forbidden food. It never quite convinced me, because I'm Chinese-American. Asia—you know, Asia loves pork. Why aren't they worried about all that? So I was in Istanbul for a book tour once, and I remember I really wanted bacon, and, you know, I couldn't get bacon. And then I thought, okay, I really need to find out why pork is forbidden. This is a—this is a cultural and historical mystery that never made sense to me. The explanations just never made sense to me. It cannot be trichinosis. So I told my son that—my son is—he does—he's a filmmaker as well. And he just said, "Well, let's do it. Let's—we will pose it as a mystery," because it is a mystery. So it took us probably two years to go and—you know, we interviewed anthropologists and pet pig owners and archaeologists, actually, just to find out, what do they say? What is the answer to this? And to us, the answer really just came down to this cultural desire for every—every tribe—to define us versus them. You know, they eat pigs. They're not us, so therefore they're the enemy. And it was fascinating because we—we ended up finding out more about pigs than I was expecting, and also finding out that people who have pet pigs can sometimes be a little unusual.

Jess Lahey

And the people who purchase the clothes for the pigs are also crazy.

Tess Gerritsen

Yes. Sew outfits for their pigs and sleep with their pigs. And there was—there was one woman who had—she slept on the second floor of her house, so she had an elevator for her pig who couldn't make it up the stairs, and, you know, ramps to get up onto the bed because they've gotten so fat—they've been overfed. But it was—for me, at the heart of it was a mystery.

Jess Lahey

As a nonfiction author whose whole entire reason for being is, "I don't know—let's find out," I think that's just the most delightful thing. And I loved your framing as, "I don't know, we have this question, let's go out there and just ask people about it and find the experts." And that's—oh, I could just live on that stuff. So...

Tess Gerritsen

So could I. You know, research is so enticing. It's enticing. It is—it can get you into trouble because you never write your book. Some of us just love to do the research.

Jess Lahey

Sarina actually has taken skating lessons, done glass blowing—what else have you done? Yoga classes and all—all kinds of things in the pursuit of knowledge for her characters. And I think that's a delight.

Sarina Bowen

Yes. If you can sign up for a class as part of your research, like, that is just the best day. Like, you know, oh, I must take these ice skating lessons twice a day for five months, because—yeah—or twice a week, but still.

Tess Gerritsen

You must be a good ice skater then.

Sarina Bowen

I'm getting better.

Tess Gerritsen

So you never gave them up, I see.

Jess Lahey

Well, it's fun because she usually writes about hockey, but she has a figure skater coming up in this book that's coming out this fall. And she's like, "Well, I guess I'm just going to have to learn how to figure skate."

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I also—one time I went to see Rebecca Skloot speak about her big nonfiction The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.

Tess Gerritsen

Oh, okay.

Sarina Bowen

And she said that all her best ideas had come from moments in her life when she went, "Wait, what?!"

Tess Gerritsen

Yes. Yep.

Sarina Bowen

Including for The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. Like, she learned about the cells in high school—she was in high school biology class—and the teacher said, like, "This woman died in the '60s, but we're still using her cells," and she said, "Wait, what?!" And that's—that's what you made me think of with the pigs. Like, I think...

Jess Lahey

Well, and also your folder of ideas. I mean, I immediately texted Sarina after listening to a podcast where I heard an ad, and the ad made me go, "Oh that could be creepy." And then I'm like, "Okay, this is—this is a plot. This is going in the folder somewhere." And so you have to just think about how those things could unfold over time. And I love the idea of—and even in journalism—there are articles that I've written where I said, this just isn't their time. And then, like, five years later, I'll hear something out there, and I'm like, okay, finally, it's the time for this thing. And there's a reason you put that article in your idea—in your paper—manila folder of ideas.

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I think writers are—we have to be curious. We have to be engaged in what's going on around us, because the ideas are everywhere. And I have this—I like to say I have a formula. It's called "two plus two equals five." And what that means is, sometimes you'll have a—you'll have a piece of information that, you know, there's a book here, but you haven't figured out what to do with it. And you wait for another piece of information from some completely different source, and you put them together, and they end up being like nuclear fusion—bigger than the…

Sarina Bowen

Yes!

Jess Lahey

Yes!

Tess Gerritsen

Some of the parts.

Sarina Bowen

Most every book I've ever written works like that. Like, I have one idea that I drag around for, like, five years, and then I have this other idea, and one day I'm like, oh, those two things go together.

Tess Gerritsen

Yep.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, absolutely. I think Stephen King mentioned that about Carrie. I think it was like, telekinesis, and that usually starts about the time of menstruation, and it was like, boom, there was Carrie. You know, those two things came together. I love that so much. So you mentioned that you have just handed in your next book, and we don’t—we do not, as a rule, ask about what's next for an author, because I find that to be an incredibly intimidating and horrifying question to be asked. But I would love to hear; you know, is this—is this series one that you hope to continue working on? The main series, mainly because we have quite fallen in love with your little town in Maine—in Purity, Maine. Fantastic name for your town, by the way. It's really lovely. It creates such a nice dichotomy for these people who have seen and heard things during their careers that maybe are quite dark, and then they retire to a place called Purity. Is this a place where we can hopefully spend a little bit of time?

Tess Gerritsen

Well, I am thinking about book number four now. I have an idea. You know, it always starts with—it starts with an idea and doodling around and trying to figure out what—you know, you start with this horrible situation, and then you have to explain it. So that's where I am now. I have this horrible situation, I have to explain it. So, yeah, I’m thinking about book four. I don’t know how—you never know how long a series is going to go. It’s a little tough because I have my characters who are internationally based—I mean, they’ve been around the world—but then I can’t leave behind my local cop who is also a part of this group as well. So I have to keep an eye out on Maine being the center of most of the action.

Sarina Bowen

Right, because how many international plots can you give Purity, Maine?

Tess Gerritsen

That’s right, exactly. Well, luckily…

Jess Lahey

Look, Murder, She Wrote—how many things happened to that woman in that small town?

Tess Gerritsen

Exactly, exactly. Well, luckily, because I have so many CIA retirees up here, the international world comes to us. Like the next book, The Shadow Friends, is about a global security conference where one of the speakers gets murdered. And it turns out we have a global security conference right here in our town that was started by CIA 40 years ago. So I'm just—I'm just piggybacking on reality here. And—not that the spies up here think that's very amusing.

Sarina Bowen

That is fantastic, because, you know, the essential problem of writing a suspense novel is that you have to ground it in a reality that everyone is super familiar with, and you have to bring in this explosive bit of action that is unlikely to happen near any of us. And those two things have to fit together correctly. So by, um, by putting your retired spies in this tiny town, you have sort of, like, gifted yourself with that, you know, precise problem solver.

Tess Gerritsen

Yeah, reminding us.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Tess Gerritsen

But there’s only so far I can take that. I’m not sure what the limits... I think book four is going to take them all overseas, because my local cop, Jo, she’s never been out of the country—except for Canada—and it’s time for her dad to drag her over to Italy and say, "Your dead mom wanted to come to Italy, so I’m taking you." And, of course, things go wrong in Italy for Jo.

Jess Lahey

Of course, of course. Well, we’re going to keep just banging on about how much we love these books. I think we’ve already mentioned it in three podcast episodes so far in our “What have you been reading lately that you’ve really loved?” So we're—we’re big fans. And thank you so much for sitting down to talk with us and to—you know, one of the whole points of our podcast is to flatten the learning curve for other authors, so we hope that that's done a little bit of that for our listeners. And again, thank you so much. Where can people find you and your work if they want to learn a little bit more about Tess Gerritsen—her work?

Tess Gerritsen

You can go to TessGerritsen.com, and I try to post as much information there as I can. But I’m also at Bluesky, @TessGerritsen, and what is now called “X”—a legacy person on X—@TessGerritsen, yes.

Jess Lahey

Thank you so, so much again. And for everyone out there listening, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music—aptly titled Unemployed Monday—was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

Hey writers! Sarina here!

I have never been quiet about how much I enjoy Karin Slaughter’s work. So when the opportunity arose for me to read her brand new book, We Are All Guilty Here, and then interview her about it, I raised my hand faster than an extra in a deodorant ad.

The new book is a series starter with a kickass female heroine, and I could not have loved it more!

Join as as I quiz Karin on:

* How to write a sweeping series starter

* Small towns as a setting. How small is too small?

* The difference between a procedural and psychological suspense

* Character development and much more!

Karin is incredibly smart and such an important voice in suspense. You won’t want to miss this one!

Other favorite’s of Karin’s that we discussed include:

Pieces of Her

The Grant County series

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a series I have created just for supporters of the #AmWriting Podcast.

I met an aspiring author and speaker who has an idea for a book that just knocked me over. I said, please, please write that book. This is someone who had an idea that has a place in the market. It's timely. She's the perfect person to write it, and I asked her, I begged her, if I could please mentor her through this process publicly on the podcast.

So while we're not giving her full name and we're not giving the actual title of the book, because we don't want to hand those things away, I am coaching her through the entire process, from preparing her book proposal to querying an agent. I'm going through the whole thing with her. She knows nothing about the publishing industry, she knows very little about how one goes about writing a book—so essentially, this is as I mentioned before, from soup to nuts, From Authority to Author, and hopefully we'll get her there.

But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether after this book she ends up having a speaking career, this is about the process of preparing to do that. I hope you’ll join us.

This series is for supporters only, so if you are a free subscriber right now, consider upgrading. Remember, if you upgrade, you'll also get the ability to submit for our First Pages Booklab, and lots of other fun stuff that we put out just for supporters—So come join us. It's a lot of fun.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 461 - TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a new series I have created just for supporters of the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I met an aspiring author and speaker who has an idea for a book that just knocked me over. I said, please, please write that book. This is someone who had an idea that—it has a place in the market, it's timely, she's the perfect person to write it—and I asked her, I begged her, if I could please mentor her through this process publicly on the podcast. So while we're not giving her full name and we're not giving the actual title of the book, because we don't want to hand those things away, I am coaching her through the entire process, from preparing her book proposal to querying an agent. I'm going through the whole thing with her. She knows nothing about the publishing industry. She knows very little about how, you know, one goes about writing a book. And so she—essentially, this is, as I mentioned before, From Soup to Nuts, From Authority to Author, and hopefully we'll get her there. But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether this book—she ends up having a speaking career—this is about the process of preparing to do that. How do you write a book? How do you prepare to become a speaker on the back of that book? So I hope you join us. This is a series for supporters only, so if you are a free supporter—or if you're a free subscriber right now—consider upgrading. Remember, if you upgrade, you'll also get access to the ability to submit for our First Pages Booklab and lots of other fun stuff that we put out just for supporters. So come join us. It's a lot of fun.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

Sarina Bowen

Hello, my name is Sarina Bowen, and you're listening to the AmWriting Podcast. This is the podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, fictional things, non-fictional things, pitches and proposals—in short, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting the work done. I am alone today with an interview that I could not be more excited about. I don't know how I drew the long straw here, but today I have the pleasure of interviewing Karin Slaughter. She is the author of more than 20 instant New York Times best-selling novels, including the Edgar-nominated Cop Town and standalone novels The Good Daughter, Pretty Girls, and Girl Forgotten. That's actually an amazing one, by the way—go read it. She's published in 120 countries, with more than 40 million copies sold across the globe. She also has a number one Netflix series and another long-running series. She has hit all the bells and checked all the boxes in thriller land, and she is also just one of my favorite writers. So happy to be here. Welcome, Karin Slaughter.

Karin Slaughter

It's my pleasure. Thank you.

Sarina Bowen

We're here to talk about your August release, which is called We Are All Guilty Here. I received this ARC a few months ago—actually read it immediately—because I love your suspense, and I also was really excited to see that it was clear as day on the release. So you owe me now that it's a series starter.

Karin Slaughter

It is, yeah. It was a lot of fun planning it out.

Sarina Bowen

Oh, good, yeah. And I want to hear a little bit about that, but I'm just going to read the very short flap copy for We Are All Guilty Here so we all know what we're talking about.

[Reads flap copy]The first thrilling mystery in the new North Falls series from Karin Slaughter. Welcome to North Falls—a small town where everyone knows everyone. Or so they think. Until the night of the fireworks, when two teenage girls vanish and the town ignites. For Officer Emmy Clifton, it’s personal. She turned away when her best friend's daughter needed help—and now she must bring her home. But as Emmy combs through the puzzle the girls left behind, she realizes she never really knew them. Nobody did. Every teenage girl has secrets. But who would kill for them? And what else is the town hiding?

So, flap copy very much pitched as a thriller. Here is the problem here—you know, we're wanting the solution, but I would argue that your novels are always, always about bigger than the problem and its solution. So how did you conceive of this town, and what does North Falls mean to you as you were getting into it?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I mean, North Falls is a very small town inside of a larger county. So it's rural, but it's not tiny like my Grant County Series. And I think that I learned some lessons in Grant County—mainly, make it a larger town so there's more people you can kill, because at a certain point, why would anyone live in this tiny town? But also, I knew going into it that it was going to be a series. And so, you know, unlike Grant County and Will Trent—which I was hoping would be series, but I wasn’t sure, and I was at a different point in my writing life—you know, I'm pretty sure, 25 books in, that they're going to publish at least two or three more of my books. So I thought, let me set this up as a series, and let me do this world building that can carry on into several books, and let's make this town. You know, North Falls is the seat of the county, but it's also in a county called Clifton County. And the main narrator you meet is called Emmy Clifton, and she's a sheriff's deputy. Her father, Gerald Clifton, is the sheriff of this county. There are Cliftons everywhere—there are rich Cliftons and poor Cliftons—and so you have this family saga potential. But also, it gave me the opportunity to plant a lot of different seeds that will later grow into novels. So I was really happy about that, but I definitely structured the county in a way where there's plenty of space to tell stories.

Sarina Bowen

Right. So I noticed, and when I read a book like this, I am reading it as a reader, but also as a writer.

Karin Slaughter

Yes.

Sarina Bowen

And so I really noticed how long the character count in this book is—by which I mean how many characters there really are, how many named characters. There's so many of them, and that felt really fearless to me, you know, like you weren't sitting there at your keyboard wondering if you were going to ask your reader to remember this other family member, but you just went for it. And is that something that you ever try to balance? Like, you're not taking it easy on us here, and ultimately, I loved every word of it. But do you ever worry about that? Like, do you let that voice from other books past into your brain to say, like, well, that one time…

Karin Slaughter

Not really. You know, I think a writer's job is to trust the reader, and it's certainly my job to tell a story that is gripping and that makes sense and that pulls them into the world. And so what I was thinking about as I was writing this was, I need to write these characters in such a way that you care about them; otherwise, you won't care what happens. And, you know, Emmy is in a pretty universal position for a lot of millennial women. She's in a marriage that's not a great marriage. She's trying to raise her son. Her parents are starting to get older—you know, they're failing a little bit—so she's noticing that. And in the middle of this, she has this horrific crime happen where these two girls are abducted. And because they are in this small town, she knows one of these girls, who's actually a stepdaughter of her best friend—her best friend since kindergarten—and so just that one thing happening blows her world apart. To me, that's what the hook is. You know, there's this greater mystery of what happened to these girls, what's going to happen, who took them—all those things—but there's also something that I rely on a lot in my books, which is the mystery of character, and people wanting to know more about how does Emmy navigate this. What happens to her brother and her sister-in-law, and this handsome guy who is the school resource officer? You know, how does this all play out? And that, to me, is the job of the writer—to make these characters interesting and make the plot and the balance of the character stories fit together in a way that, you know, when there's not a car chase or a gunfight or whatever, you still want to keep reading because you're involved in the mystery of the character.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, and we sure are. And Emmy is just the beating heart of this book, but she is not your only point of view character. And how—is that something you really have to fiddle with as you go, like, do you try on other point of view characters and then pick the winners as you go?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah... I never have, you know, I think that I'm a very opinionated writer. I have a very firm sense of point of view. And so I knew that Emmy was going to get the bulk of the first part of the story. And then I knew that Jude was going to come in when she came in, and that I would have to build out, like, just drop the reader in this unfamiliar, new world, right in San Francisco, with like, a completely different character, and you don't know what's going on, and you make assumptions about her based on what she does for a living and all this other stuff. And you know, I knew that was coming all along and that the book would be told from these two women's points of view. I never felt—other than the early part with Madison, one of the girls who is abducted—I never really felt like anyone else could tell these stories.

Sarina Bowen

Okay! And you mentioned that you learned some things from writing your Grant County Series that informed your choice of the size and milieu of what you chose for North Falls and for Clifton County. What do you think? How did it feel to start a series in 2025 versus starting one, you know, a decade ago? Like, is there anything about the world that made your choices different, or is it all, um, you know, coming from what you've learned as an author?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, I think it's cumulative. I mean, the point of being an author with a 25-year career is to learn from each book, and I never want to feel like when I finish a book, oh, that's perfect. I can't do better than that. I always, you know, want to learn something, and then the next book I want to try something new. I mean, I could have just kept writing Will Trent novels and occasionally standalones for the rest of my life. I mean, and I am going to write more Will Trent novels interspersed with North Falls. It's really important to me to—I love that character, I love Sara Linton, and I want to keep telling those stories. And I actually have another idea for a standalone I want to do. But, you know, the point of being a writer is to get better at it. I think anybody who loves writing and the challenge of writing, and feels a calling, wants to be better with each story—to hone certain skills, to do novel things (to use a pun there) in their writing that challenge them and make the work more interesting—and that's what I try to do with every book. So starting North Falls this far into my career was a leap, but I think, hopefully, it's one that has paid off for me as a writer, just to have the ability to tell new stories and kind of prove that I've got more stories in me.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I confess that I regularly have moments where I stop myself and ask, have I said this before this way? Have I done this little thing before? And what would you tell me about that—like, to just, like, get over myself? Or, you know, what happens when you come to a moment like that in your own story craft?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I mean, in polite terms, you could think of it as an homage to yourself. I mean, honestly, I'm writing about murder. I'm writing about violence against women. I mean, I do write about men dying, but no one seems to care—so sorry, guys. You know, I had one book where I killed, like, six men, and then the next one I killed one woman, and they were like, wow, this return to violence. I'm like, come on, guys. But yeah, you know? So I think how you do it is you have to think of it through the lens of the character, and that's a choice I made in Grant County and Will Trent—was that they were going to be affected by what happened in the previous book, right? So, you know, you don't have a situation—you know, I love series novels, but there are some where… and Jack Reacher is an exception because I love Jack Reacher, and every Reacher book is: he gets to a new town, people are doing bad s**t, and he shoots a lot of people, and he makes it right, you know. And I love Jack Reacher. But, you know, some writers do write the same thing over and over again—they have the same concept or the same gimmick—and that's never been a career that I'm interested in. For me, I want to tell new stories and do new things. And, you know, after a while you run out of crimes that are new crimes. You know, I've written about abduction before, I've written about abuse before, but it's the character—the way the character sees a story, and the connection, the emotional connection the character has—that makes a difference. And, you know, in many ways, it's harder to write a novel in North Falls, where Emmy has a personal connection to the crimes that are occurring, as opposed to writing a Will Trent novel set in Atlanta, where, you know, it's a stranger to them. And so I have to...

Sarina Bowen

If Will Trent knew—yeah, if Will Trent knew every dead person, that would just seem weird.

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And so I have to find a way into the story, and with Will and Sara, for instance, it's a little more difficult than something where, okay, there's this immediate emotional connection, because I'm writing in North Falls more psychological thrillers, as opposed to Will Trent, which is more procedural.

Sarina Bowen

Okay, can I poke you about that a little bit? Because, um, these words are used a lot. Procedural, to me, I've always understood to be a professional character. So Emmy Clifton is a law enforcement officer—she's a pro—so in strictly, strict definition, this is a procedural novel. But how do you feel the difference between psychological versus procedural functions in those two series?

Karin Slaughter

Well, you know, I think absolutely, if you want to be strictly by definition, it would be procedural. But, you know, the thing about thrillers is they're all things now, right? I mean, you could call it domestic—a domestic thriller, or domestic mystery, or whatever—you could call it, you know, a family story. And I think of it more as a saga, because it is about a family spanning generations, and this town spanning generations. But, you know, yeah, there's a procedural element. There's also—like, it's very emotionally tied into the character. There's a darkness to it, so it's psychologically, you know, you're very close to the bone on it. And I think that's why I would call it more of a psychological thriller, as opposed to Will Trent where, you know, it's very led by the investigatory steps, right? Like, you know, if Will Trent is going to be there, they're going to talk to witnesses, they're going to talk to suspects, they're going to, you know, have to fill in with their boss. There are just different parts of that that, in one way, the structure makes it easier to write than something like We Are All Guilty Here. But, you know, with this in particular, where you have it talking about not just the crime, but how f*****g hard it is to grow yourself into a woman, as Emmy says, and friendships and relationships and family and dealing with aging parents and, you know, siblings and that sort of stuff—that, to me, is what makes it more in the realm of psychological.

Sarina Bowen

Okay. I've actually really admired the way that you sometimes walk the line on this. For example, I really enjoyed Girl Forgotten, which is the character that is first introduced in Pieces of Her, where she is not a professional. And then in Girl Forgotten, she has joined a law enforcement agency, but it's still her first day on the job—which is just such a wonderfully fun way to throw things at that character—because then it becomes both a procedural and not. Like, she is technically a professional, but she doesn't know what the heck she's doing, and not everybody there is willing to help her. So to me, that was a fantastically fun way of making both things true at once. And when I was reading that book, and of course then this one, I wonder—how you get the legal—the law enforcement stuff? So, like, how did…I know that by now, at this point in your career, you must have many people you can talk to about this, but how did you start that? Like, how did you inform yourself of what you didn't know so that you could fix it and not get those things wrong?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, you know, when I wrote my second book, I had met a guy who's a doctor, and he is married to a pediatrician, and his brother works on a body farm in Texas. So this is, like, the perfect family for me for what I'm doing to make Sara the smartest doctor on the entire planet. Because, you know, it might take my friend David, who advises me, four days to come up with a solution, but Sara has to do it in half a paragraph. So she's definitely the doctor you want if anything very unusual happens. I mean, her career would be the subject of scholarly articles forever.

Sarina Bowen

Zebra is not horses for her.

Karin Slaughter

Exactly, yeah. And so I am…I have them—I have a lot of police officers I speak to, a lot of retired GBI officers. One of them was very helpful in this novel because, you know, the GBI—it escalates, you know, crimes in the state of Georgia escalate completely when there's a child involved, just because, you know, somebody who's in Fulton County can't jump to Acworth, for instance, as far as policing, but the GBI is in charge of the entire state—Georgia Bureau of Investigation—so they handle a lot of kidnappings and abductions. And most of the time, you know, it's statistically…there's a 1% chance it's going to be a stranger. Usually it's a parent or “Uncle Bob,” or, you know, the youth pastor, or someone like that who has access to a child. And so she hooked me into the Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which is a remarkable resource. And, I mean, I think they're just amazing in what they do. But, you know, the thing is, as much as I know about this stuff, I always check my work because I'm not a professional. And, you know, it's very rare these days, I think, for people to say, hey, I'm not an expert in this, let me talk to someone who is and has spent 20 years becoming an expert. But it's really important to me to get those details as correct as I can. Now, they're not always going to be 100% accurate because I'm telling a story, you know? If putting in a chest tube takes 20 different steps…Sara’s going to do it, you know, in like a sentence.

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Karin Slaughter

So I have to—but I feel like I need to know the rules and I need to know the facts before I fudge them so that I can still give them a sense of believability. I'm writing…not writing textbooks, I'm writing fiction, but I want to be as accurate as possible, and I think that's really important, you know? And I know that a lot of my readers are very immersed in true crime and podcasts and all these sorts of things. And sometimes you can get the accurate information from those. A lot of times you don't. And I want them to say, wait a minute, you know, on “Murder Death Podcast”, they said this would never happen, and if they look it up, or they talk to an expert, they'll be like, ha, “Murder Death Podcast” was wrong. You know, maybe I shouldn't trust this guy or gal who's doing a podcast out of the backseat of her car for my forensic knowledge. So that's my job as a writer—to get it as factually accurate as I can.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, and there are areas, um, where readers care more. Like, when I ask readers, um, what do you—what drives you nuts in research? It's the nurses are really, like, um, triggered by bad medicine. But…

Karin Slaughter

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

But there are some areas, you know, like technology, and there are some places where, you know, less accuracy—or more creative accuracy—is more excusable than if you do the nurse thing wrong, because they will come for you.

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, yeah, they will. Or guns…

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Karin Slaughter

You know? And it's really because the armorer for the GBI—I actually confirmed some details with him in a book—and, like, some guy in, I don't know, Idaho sent me this angry email saying I got it wrong. And I'm like, talk to the armorer, right? I mean, people…people just want to fight sometimes. But yeah, nurses can be brutal when they come for you. It's like, come on, man. It’s funny that you mentioned doctors, actually; doctors are like, you know, people get it wrong, but nurses are like, no, you got this wrong, you need to apologize.

Sarina Bowen

It's funny that you mentioned the guns, because I heard last year Gregg Hurwitz speak, and he said, “Don’t get the guns wrong. The gun people will come for you. And don't hurt the cat, because the cat people will come for you.”

Karin Slaughter

True. It's true. I would say the cat people are more brutal than the gun people.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Karin Slaughter

As it should be. You should never hurt an animal in a book.

Sarina Bowen

Right. So back to the idea of a series again. I was so excited to see that this will be a series, and I—the expansiveness of the first book makes a lot of sense series-wise. What do you think is actually harder about writing a series versus a standalone, or the reverse?

Karin Slaughter

Well, you know, in a standalone, the stakes can be much higher because you're not going—you can damage these characters. I mean, you can kill the characters. You can kill them all by the end of the book, you know? So the sense of jeopardy is always heightened in a standalone, at least in my standalones, because I'm not precious with people, even if they're narrators. But, you know, I think it's really important to—no matter what you're writing—just keep in mind that there's someone out there who has experienced the crimes you're writing about. And, you know, a case of gender violence is happening right now, and right now, right now, and right now, right? So it's like every second of the day in the world, it’s happening somewhere. And I keep that in mind when I'm writing, and I want to make it matter. I don't want to use it for effect—it’s not titillating or sexualized, or any of those things. So, you know, when I'm writing—whether it's a standalone or a series—I want to set up that world where the lives of these people matter, and you understand that the loss of life is felt in the community, and by the family, and the characters, and the investigators, and everyone there. And so, you know, the challenge with the standalone is finding that world, building that world, and then leaving that world, right? It's a lot of work, as opposed to in a series where you know you're going to carry it on. So you have to be a little careful about how you structure things, and you don't want to leave your character in a place where the next book you don't know how they're going to go on, also. And so you have to have some sense of hope, or some sense of closing that one chapter and moving on to the other. I mean, I use a lot of humor in my books. I get a lot of questions about the violence, but I never get questions about the humor. I think it's really important to have that lightness among the darkness. I mean, my grandmother used to say, “You can't fall off the floor,” and I'm a big proponent of that. I think at some point, you know, you have to have some relief from it. And in a standalone, you know, you have a very short runway to do that, but in a series, you have a longer…you know, you can trust the reader, as they get to know these characters, that they have a little more empathy and sympathy with what they're going through.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so you mentioned darkness, and I've been thinking a lot about this. And your books have some very dark topics and themes, as they must, because you are carrying storylines that are, um, can be very dramatic and have very high stakes. One thing I've noticed about your books, and why I like them so much, is that even in the year of our Lord 2025, when I pick up a Karin Slaughter book, it could be dark as anything, but I know from at least chapter one and a half who I am rooting for and who I care about. So Emmy is a wonderful example of this. Ten minutes into my journey with her, I know that she's my girl. You know, I'm very invested in her, even though that does not mean she has to be perfect, that she isn't flawed, or that she even knows what's going on—but I know, because of the cues that you've given me, that I'm supposed to care about her, and I do instantly. So when I began reading lots and lots of suspense three or four years ago, as I was writing my own, I very quickly sorted all of the suspense in the world that's selling right now into two pots, without trying to—which is the books where I know who I'm supposed to root for immediately, and the books where you don't. And I noticed that that second category is awfully popular now, and maybe is sort of on an upswing, like where the mystery, the story, might be very beautifully rendered, but I don't necessarily care about any of the people, or I'm not sure who to pull for. And that’s not because these books aren't well written, but because that's a mood, and I wonder if you've noticed that, and, um, and how you feel about it, just from a writerly perspective. Like, what is going on there? Like, why is there so much darkness in the reader's perspective, and, you know, not just in the themes right now?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I mean, I think it's where we are, just in the world, right? You had a lot of that before 9/11, and then there was a need after—I mean that, and I speak to 9/11 because that's…my first book was published a few days after 9/11, so…

Sarina Bowen

Oh, wow.

Karin Slaughter

And there was this idea, like, you saw it in the TV show 24, where there's good and bad, and there's, you know, black and white. It's very—and then we've moved definitively toward grays. But, you know, I like books where you know where you stand. And I have written books with unreliable narrators at times, and, you know, Gillian Flynn did it best and kicked that off. But, you know the thing about an unreliable narrator or an antagonist being your narrator is, I prefer a Tom Ripley, right? I mean, Tom Ripley, Patricia Highsmith’s character, is decidedly a bad guy. He murders and steals and, you know, but you're rooting for him, even not to get caught, you know. And a lot of the tension comes from him making really stupid mistakes, and you're cringing as a reader and thinking, God, how's he going to get out of this? And I don't want him to get arrested, even though he's this bad guy. And I love books that play against that. I think sometimes we have books where people—I mean, what you're saying about not knowing who to root for—I mean, if they're a good antagonist or they're a good foil, like a Moriarty…I mean, a lot of times you're not rooting for Sherlock, you're rooting for Moriarty. It just depends on how it's drawn. But for me, I just felt like, you know, this is sort of a return to Grant County, which is…I started writing Grant County, and, you know, you believe that Jeffrey and Sara and Lena, for the most part, were always trying to do the right thing. And I think we've lost the benefit of the doubt for a lot of people—particularly police officers have lost the benefit of the doubt—which is very troubling, because they police with our consent. And we need to understand who we're giving consent to. And we need to understand—you know, “defund the police” has been, like, a buzz…buzzword, phrase, whatever, for a while now, but rural areas, particularly in smaller states, have been defunding the police for years. And it's not a movement or anything; it's just not paying people enough money to live off of, right? So we've got police officers who have two or three jobs, rather than professionals who have one job, and that pays their bills, and they can take care of their responsibilities with that. So we've been defunding them. We don't give them enough training, and we're just seeing an erosion of that. And so it's something that I'm going to talk about a little bit in this next novel—is that defunding of police and how it's been, like, a nationally…it’s been a real issue. We're seeing a deterioration in police forces because of it, and particularly in retention. And so that's definitely something I want to talk about, but I think you have to put it in context and take the politics out of it, because it's not politics. It's just people not having money to pay, or choosing not to pay for services that they really need.

Sarina Bowen

Right. Or it is politics. It's just not party politics. It's just…

Karin Slaughter

Exactly, yeah, yeah.

Sarina Bowen

It's just bad politics.

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, well, it's bad social engineering.

Sarina Bowen

Yes.

Karin Slaughter

Basically. So it's there…if you could look at it from a sociological standpoint, it's just a really bad idea. And, you know, you don't retain good officers. So what do you have when that's over? You know, and not to say, like, paint entire police forces as bad because they're just not making money—but, you know, it takes…all it takes is a few bad cops, and a police force is in jeopardy.

Sarina Bowen

Right, like, would you rather live in a state where the cops and the teachers were paid well, or a state where they weren't and…?

Karin Slaughter

Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today about all of these story craft problems that were mired in all week along. If listeners want to find you, where is the best place for them to look, besides the bookstore, where this this book is coming?

Karin Slaughter

Well, I I'm all over social media. All you have to do is search for me. You see a little black cat with gorgeous green eyes. That's my baby boy, Dexter. So that gives you an indication of it. You're in the right place, or Facebook, obviously, but yeah, I'm all over the place.

Sarina Bowen

Wonderful! Thank you so much for being with us today, and listeners, until next week—keep your butts in the chair and your heads in the game.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

How dare you? That’s the first question KJ asked Ally Carter, whose name is “synonymous with hilarious action and heart-pounding romance” (TRUE). Is KJ outraged? Hell no. It’s a legit question. Ally’s books are so so much fun, with wild action scenes befitting a Bond movie (or a Jason Bourne, OBVIOUSLY) and plots that trot the globe while dancing backwards in high heels and KJ really wants to know—how did Ally give herself permission to just go there? To write the dreamy, wild, sure it could happen but also we don’t even care because we’re so in it story that scares many of us (especially ex-journo KJ, who wastes far far too much time on such non dramatic questions as “but how would someone with that job pay for health insurance? and “technically, how much snow could that unit make in one night?).

Also asked: how did you learn to write action so well? Do you take all kinds of crazy self defense classes? Or dissect movie fight scenes in slo-mo? Are you fun to watch a spy movie with, or terrible?

I would have asked her if she used to BE a spy…but then she would have had to kill me.

LINKS

National Spy Museum

The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold

The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year

The Blonde Identity

Ally Carter

Ally’s rec: Netflix: The Residence

Instagram @theallycarter The newsletter

Hey everyone, it's Jenny Nash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach, which is to say, someone who makes money, meaning, and joy out of serving writers, I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now's a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 460 - TRANSCRIPT

Jennie Nash

Hey everyone, it's Jennie Nash, founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, the company I started more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. In October, we'll be enrolling a new cohort of certification students who will be going through programs in either fiction, nonfiction, or memoir, and learning the editorial, emotional and entrepreneurial skills that you need to be a successful book coach. If you've been curious about book coaching and thinking that it might be something you want to do for your next career move, I'd love to teach you more about it, you can go to bookcoaches.com/waitlist to check out a free training I have—that's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. The training is all about how to make money, meaning and joy out of serving writers. Fall is always a great time to start something new. So if you're feeling called to do this, go check out our training and see if this might be right for you. We'd love to have you join us.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is Hashtag AmWriting the weekly podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. We're the podcast about getting things done. And I'm going to be solo this week because I am interviewing, and I'm so excited to interview one Ally Carter, whose name, I'm stealing this from her bio, because it was such a great line—is synonymous with hilarious action and heart-pounding romance. And as someone who's read much of it, I can vouch kids. So Ally's most recent big book that you've probably seen around was The Blonde Identity . Her current book that you're going to want to go straight out and grab is The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold, and her other book that she wrote just for me—because it was like exactly what I needed in a book in that moment and I really appreciate it. I'm glad other people got to read it, but it was really, for me— The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year those are her adult books. She's got a ton of young-adult books, also with heart pounding action and hilarious...wait, heart-pounding romance, hilarious action. I feel those are exchangeable. And even some middle grade if you've got some kids who might be reading in those lines. So Ally does all the things, and we're going to find out how, and immediately be able to do it ourselves. Ha! Ally, thanks for coming.

Ally Carter

Thank you so much for having me, KJ. I appreciate it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

We are super excited.

Ally Carter

I also wrote The Most Wonderful Crime [The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year] just for me, because it's— that's like, I love a mystery, and I pick them up, and I'm like, this would be great. Where's the romance? And then I love a romance, and I pick it up, and I'm like, where's the mystery? And so that's, that's how Most Wonderful Crime [The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year ] came to be. It is two great genres better together.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Also, it's writers in a—like writers in a mansion, with secrets and surprise identities, and things people can do that no one knows they can do, which is my jam. Yeah, really enjoyed it.

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Thank you for that. Not that I didn't I love The Blonde Identity. My daughter has it right now, and she's super excited, because I can give her The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold, early, because I might have gotten an early copy. So she'll be reading that on the beach next week after she finishes the first one.

Ally Carter

That is some good cool mom points right there.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, it is, yeah, and they're rare. But that is a great thing about your—I mean, my daughters are 21 and 19, so they're older, but I would have given the blonde books and The Most Wonderful Crime to, you know, a 16... ?... like, they're not—not that I don't actually give some pretty steamy stuff to my kids, but if you're not somebody who does that, they're steamy, but they're not—anyway...

Ally Carter

Yeah, there are books that, like, grandma and mom and daughter can all read together

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I was just going to say I would give them to my mom too. Yeah. I mean, they're just super fun. Because sometimes the better test is not “Would I give it to my daughter?” It’s “Would I give it to my mom?”

Ally Carter

You're exactly right. Agreed, agreed.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So my first question is this: how dare you?! Okay, and now you're like, wait, what?! No, seriously, like, your books are—the plots are so out there, and glorious, and outrageous, and the action scenes are wild, and they're sort of everything you fantasize about in a spy romance novel. And as a former journalist, I spend a lot of time sitting around staring at my plot thinking things like, yes, but how would this person have health insurance? And I feel like you've transcended that. So can you talk to me and all of us about how you've, you know, embraced this world of the wild, glorious, fun, and outrageous in your plotting?

Ally Carter

You know, that's a—thank you. First of all, that's a lovely compliment. I really credit it toward, you know, how most things are in my life and my career—it was total accident and sheer dumb luck. So 20 years ago—I realized not long ago—like, literally 20 years ago this spring, I saw it. I'd Tell You I Love You, But Then I'd Have to Kill You. And I was, you know, big dumb kid, didn't know what I was doing, sheer dumb luck, had this amazing idea. And most of all, I had an amazing idea at a time when the YA [young adult] genre was just expanding exponentially—like the shelves of shelf space at Barnes and Noble was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And so it was a big tent, and there was room for everybody. And so I was lucky in that I got in there. I was especially lucky because I had a brilliant editor named Donna Bray. And Donna could see, like the shift coming—like, she could see Twilight and the, like, the move to paranormal, and the move to, you know, moving away from contemporary fiction to genre fiction. And she was like, we have to get this out fast. And so we crashed it. And so I sold it in, like, April or May of 2005, and then I had to go to copy editing in October, and I had—I had 32 pages.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Sorry, (laughing)

Ally Carter

And a day job!

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, my goodness!

Ally Carter

So I had the summer of absolute deadline. I would come home from my day job, I would eat a fast dinner, and I would write till midnight. But this was also back, like, before we really had smartphones in our pockets all the time—definitely pre, like, social media—and so that's what you did. And I'm like, man, if I did that every day, think about how much writing I would get done today.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

But because I was so fast, the turnaround there was so fast, I didn't have time to, like, go down a rabbit hole of, well, exactly what type of nylon cord would they use to rappel into such and such—you know, I just got—I made it up, and I got away with it. And so I realized that, you know, I would—I did do a lot of research on actual tradecraft.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

So the things like the girl—there's a scene where the girls have to go through the boy’s garbage. And there's this—you know, there are scenes where they're, you know, planting bugs and those types of things. Those—I watched documentaries, I read a lot of, like, actual decommissioned, sort of old CIA handbooks and things.. The International Spy Museum has a wonderful reference section, and you can actually order...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, that’s cool.

Ally Carter

Old, like, World War Two training manuals and things. It's really great

KJ Dell'Antonia

I did not know that.

Ally Carter

So I did do that. What I did not do was I didn't worry about, like, the brand name of what you might call it. So as a general rule, I tell my readers, like, the more specific something is in the book, the more likely it is I made it up. So when I'm like, well, then she did the one death ski maneuver—and, like, I don't know what the one death ski maneuver is, but they don't either—I made it up. But the actual sort of bones of what the school would teach and how they would teach, it was very accurate.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, it must have come in handy because you have another school in the current book.

Ally Carter

Yeah. And it’s—it was a little harder, because it is, you know, it's not for kids, and so it has to have a little bit more of an air of sophistication. And I wanted to base it off of the actual CIA training facility, “The Farm,” which is at Camp Peary—which is in the book, what I couldn't figure out were things like, do they sleep in apartments? Do they have a dorm? Is there a are there barracks? Are there, you know, is there, like, a big cafeteria? Are they?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Very few people will know what's real, and they can't tell you, right?

Ally Carter

They can't tell me. And so I actually, when I was on tour for The Blonde Identity, I was in D.C., and I did a wonderful event, had hundreds of readers there, and they were like my Gallagher Girls who had grown up and now they all are spies. I mean, they like, literally work for the CIA. They're literally with, you know, "I'm with Homeland Security." You know, several of them were like, I can't actually tell you where I work, but you were very popular there and so, and I actually did a like, show of hands, like, if you can say so, how many of you have been to The Farm and, like, multiple hands went up.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Oh, wow!

Ally Carter

And I'm like we're talking when this is finished. So I got a little bit, but not very much, you know. And I guess the thing also with “The Farm” is, you know, they bring in, like, their actual undercover operatives to train there, but there are a lot of different groups that also use that facility. So, for example, I think I'm not dreaming this. I think this is true. Like, if you are an ambassador or an ambassador's family, and you and you are going, maybe not like the ambassador to London, but if you're going to, like, you know, someplace that could be a little bit dangerous, they'll send you there for, like, evasive driving training and things like that. So you get a little bit of training. So it's not just spies who train at Camp Peary, it's multiple groups.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I have a new life goal now, which is to never need evasive driving training.

Ally Carter

Right?! And see, I kind of want to learn how to do it. I don't want to need it…

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah no, no but no, it's not to need it. I don’t want to need it.

Ally Carter

I want to know how to do it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Well, yeah, you could, you could use it. Yeah, I just—it. I miss—your books inspire the writer in me to remember, like you said, that very few people care what brand of nylon rope you would use to repel, and from there, it's a pretty short step to, you know, whether or not you can really stop a cable car halfway.

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, we're and we're not going to but.. It’s just...

Ally Carter

And the way I see it is, if you are the person who knows what brand of rope it is... even if i get the rope right, i could get everything else wrong.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You're either not reading this, or you don’t care.

Ally Carter

Yeah. There... This is, this is not for them, probably.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Or if it is, it they've they're there, like...

Ally Carter

They're there.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's fine.

Ally Carter

You either buying in or you're out. And that's fine. And I—and nothing but respect to the people who do know that? Because now, I grew up on a farm, and so I can't read, like, cowboy books, because I'm like, oh gosh, geez Louise, of course, your barn burned down. You put that hay in there way too soon—you are you really baling green hay?

KJ Dell'Antonia

They’re literally haying in my field right now.

Ally Carter

Right. You know, I'm like, seriously, seriously. This is, you know, you're, you're, you're not. You didn’t do a semen test on your bull? Like—you know?"

KJ Dell'Antonia

"You are not milking that cow. I know how you're supposed to hold your hands."

Ally Carter

Exactly!

KJ Dell'Antonia

See I did.

Ally Carter

Yeah, I'm, I'm not, I'm not here for and so I'm, like, this is the same thing. Like spies have no reason be reading me. I have no reason reading the things that I do know about. Because it's, you know, it's, it's just, you're also, it's not exciting to me. And so I'm sure most spies, you know, there's a line in...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah it's not a fantasy.

Ally Carter

Yeah, so…

KJ Dell'Antonia

It can't be a fantasy, because you're too stuck on, you know, the...

Ally Carter

Exactly, and so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

The reality that our hay baling chute is broken, and therefore we will need multiple people tomorrow to go around and pick up each individual bale…

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And put it on a flatbed truck, and drive to the barn, and take each individual bale off the flatbed truck, and then stack them in the barn. Y’all are missing my arm gestures, but Ally knows of which I speak.

Ally Carter

I know, I know those gestures. You got to buck it up with your knee. It's a whole—it's—it is not easy work. It is very hard work. And so…

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, I’m hoping not to go out there, but I know I will.

Ally Carter

Oh no, you don’t want to do that, and you will itch for days.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I've done it. I've done it for years and I know I'm going to end up there. It's my birthday tomorrow too.

Ally Carter

Oh no, that’s not the…Yeah, so it’s the reality. I think it’s very easy—also, when reading, as a reader—I hate it when it’s very clear that an author has done a ton of research and they’re not going to let it go to waste. Yeah. And so there’s like, you know, they’ll introduce the thing, and then they’ll have, like, a paragraph explaining all of the things that they have learned. I’m like, this serves no purpose whatsoever.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I also thank my editor for my leaving out the entire history of Prohibition-era alcohol rules between Kansas and Missouri in The Chicken Sisters.

Ally Carter

Yep. See, if you, if you want to write that, the nonfiction is right there, you can— you've got it. So I like to do enough research to inform the story. And, you know, there are definitely things, you know, scenes and lines and wonderful things that have come from the research. But I never do research just so I know, like, what kind of rope it is.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

I—you know, that's that I think then, then, then also, are you doing research, or are you procrastinating?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well...

Ally Carter

Because I think most people are just procrastinating.

KJ Dell'Antonia

We all know the answer to that. So how about the action scenes? You write such great action scenes, but I am also not a reader who's like picturing, well, clearly at this point, he's upside down and her hand. You know, that's not how I read anything. I just kind of go (shwoop) through that. So how do you handle writing them? Are you like slowing down action films so you can dissect the movies?

Ally Carter

No, I really don't like writing action scenes. They are hard, and it feels like I've done everything, like they're okay. Well, hey, here we are. We're doing that again, but there. They are. They come with the job. And so I think most of all, you just have to remember, sort of the blocking of it. Like, okay, who is where? The other hard thing that that comes and, you know, movies have it so much easier. Like, you don't need a name for the for the six bad guys, that black Willow...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right,, the one on the right, and the one behind... Yeah, yeah, no.

Ally Carter

And so I'm like, Okay, but how is the reader keeping these different so, you know, like, well, one of them has a has glasses, and the other one has a goatee. Okay, well, then from that point forward, I the author just call them glasses...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Glasses and goatee. Right.

Ally Carter

And so you have to remember, like, okay, glasses is down. Goatees still at large, you know, or whatever.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Is there a special copy editor for that?

Ally Carter

They're not special, but that is definitely can fall into a copy editor's purview, especially things like during that fight sequence. Okay, well, it was 100 pages ago, but it was also yesterday that your heroine got shocked. Is she really fighting at full strength? Oh, ouch, you know. So that type of thing, because, again, reader wise, that's, that was, I've, that was the midpoint. I'm to the climax now. But timeline wise, no, that was yesterday.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

And so the...

KJ Dell'Antonia

And probably with some readers, reader wise, that was an hour ago.

Ally Carter

Yeah! So...

KJ Dell'Antonia

I mean you know, we're eating this up.

Ally Carter

Exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So much faster to read than to write.

Ally Carter

So you have to think about those types of things. Like I wrote that two months ago, but nope, it's still right there.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

So that's the kind of thing that, you know, again, you can't really worry about in a first draft. Like, let that. That's future-use problem.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Now, in contrast to, you know, the wild plotting and the crazy, enjoyable, delicious action, your people feel, you know super, super real. They have, ah, big reasons for being the way that they are, but the feelings feel real. I think that is an amazing um, contrast. Do you start with the, do you start with, like, you know, the person's flaw, or what it would there's some term of art for this which I have forgotten. Or do you start with, I need a person who, or does it vary book by book?

Ally Carter

Thank you. I, you know, it's I spend a lot of time with that.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's why they work.

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, seriously, no one. I mean, The Blonde Identity would maybe be fun if it wasn't also, like, you really want her to figure out who she is, and you really want to know why is this happening, and what is up with and like, you want all that for the character you believe in, in her.

Ally Carter

And that's always I find as much about tone as anything, this particular sub- genre, it can go wacky or kooky really fast, like it's very easy. You know, I like to say that spy movies exist on a spectrum that range from get smart to Zero Dark Thirty.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

Anything along that spectrum is a spy movie. But those could not be more different. And so are we? Are we doing like James Bond, like he's cool and suave, but he also has gadgets, or are we doing like he's, you know, kind of bumbling with gadgets? Or are we doing it's very realistic?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well are we doing Roger Moore James Bond, or are we doing … um…guy who now models for…

Ally Carter

Daniel Craig?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Thank you—oy vey—Daniel Craig, which are very different. James Bonds really…

Ally Carter

Very different James Bonds, because I've heard people the James Bond people talk about the Daniel Craig, James Bond doesn't exist without Jason Bourne.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

That's who they looked at and so all of these things, you know. And so when I'm trying to figure it out, and I think that's one of the hardest things about genre bending romance, whether you're bending fantasy and romance or horror and romance, or romance and mystery or romance and action, or whatever, you could only really write in the Venn diagram space, where there's overlap. And so I couldn't, you know, the realistic version of this is not something where people are falling in love, like it's, you know, it's too dark. And it's definitely not a comedy, definitely not a comedy. So you're, you have to find the place where, no, they're in real, actual peril. This is really terrible. This is... they really might die

KJ Dell'Antonia

And they understand that.

Ally Carter

And they understand that they get that and also, but they still have time to, you know, okay, well, now I'm going to, you know, now we're going to slow dance, you know, you still have to find those times. And the other thing is, you know, you have to figure out just where on the spectrum you want to be and lean into that. Like, if you want to write, like, the kooky, sort of Agent Cody Banks of it all, then you have to do that. But then you have to realize the other parts of the spy kind of world that you can't touch. And so it's—you're just—you're always threading needles. It’s, it is a, it is a task of, of absolutely threading needles all the time.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I think that, yeah, when it comes to tone, where on the spectrum do you want to be, is like, like maybe one of the greatest questions that I have heard. And it's just one that, you know, I think we all wrestle with.

Ally Carter

Well, and I’ve had people that really don’t—people who should get it—who don’t get it. So, you know, I was in a meeting one time with some Hollywood producers who were looking at some of my stuff, and I said, “Well, tonally, where do you want it to be?” And they were like, “What do you mean?” I said, “Well, do you want it to be like, you know, Mr. and Mrs. Smith or Bourne Identity?” And they said, “Well, those are the same thing.” And I was like…

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, no, no, no!

Ally Carter

“This meeting is over. Thank you very much”.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

It's... I don't understand how people don't get that, but to me, I spend 90% of my time worried about it. Oh, I remember now what I was going to say earlier. I got my start—and I'm never going to be, like, a full-time or big-time of this—but I've done some screenwriting. . And so there’s a screenwriting podcast [Scriptnotes] by two guys who are very big, very dominant—dominant—screenwriter. One of them did, like, the Charlie's Angels movies and the Aladdin remake and all those. The other one does The Last of Us and a bunch of big, like, HBO shows. And, um, they always talk about "the Want song". So in every Disney musical, the first—the first song—sets up the world. It's "Belle," you know, like, you know, wandering through town. The second song is the "whatever she wants." And so, you know Moana, you know, "See the line where the sky and the sea meet, it calls me"—like, Moana wants to travel. She wants adventure. And so I spend a lot of time, when I'm setting up these characters, thinking about what their "Want song" would be. And so, like, for The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year, her "Want song" is, "I want to be Eleanor."

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

You know she wants to be Eleanor Ashley [from The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year], who is my, like, fake off-brand Agatha Christie, and so that's, that's what you have to think about a lot like, you know, what Alex [from The Blonde Who Came in from the Cold] wants is to sort of be free like she wants, she wants to be enough. She wants to pay her—you know? She has paid her debt for—you know, sort of having been born strong and healthy, where her identical twin has been born very, very sick. And so she, she wants—and she wants to never lay eyes on Michael Kingsley [also from The Blonde Who Came in from the Cold], ever again, who was her, you know, on again, off again, partner, slash love interest. And so that's—you know, that I always start with that, what is their wound? What is the thing that hurt them in the past that they're trying to get over? And what is their want?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

And almost always, what would they realize over the course of the book is that the thing that they want is not the thing that they need.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah.

Ally Carter

And so that's, that's an Ally Carter book. That's an Ally Carter character progress.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's it. Now everyone can do it.

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. Oh, but if it were that easy, everyone would do it, right? Um, no, this... this is amazing and delightful. I hope really helpful for people. I got distracted by taking some notes on what you just said. So, people—for me, for the Post-its on my computer, as well as, oh my gosh, so many Post-its, so many Post-its—let's talk just a little bit about the difference between YA [young adult] and adult when you're—fundamentally—I mean, some people sort of switch genres entirely. You were writing very similarly toned books for different audiences. How? How do you think of that evolution?

Ally Carter

That's—in a way—yes, I did switch audiences. In another way, they're the exact same readers. And so that's—that's an interesting and weird thing about YA is, about every three years, you have to make all new readers because they have grown up and they've aged out of you. And even if they haven't aged out of you, they have what I call "cooled out of you."

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, yeah.

Ally Carter

And they're like, I liked those books when I was a little kid, and so current me can't possibly like those books, because those are little kid books. And so I was on the phone during the pandemic with my friend Rachel Hawkins and Rachel had written YA for a long time, and then she switched to adult. And I was talking about... do I...? What do I...? I need to sell something. Do I sell another middle grade? Do I sell a YA [young adult]? Like, what do I sell? And she says, you sell an adult. You sell an adult book that appeals to your Gallagher Girl readers. And I, I said, oh, Rachel, I've spent, you know, 15 years building a career in YA, I've got, you know... And she said, your readers aren't there anymore. They are the girls who read you when they were 12, ten years ago, and are 22 now. And I'm like, oh, that's right, they are. They've grown up. And so I—and I had the idea for “the spy twins” and had tried to do it as YA, and then at one point I even tried to do it as middle grade, and I could never make it work. And the problem wasn't, one of the twins wakes up with amnesia and somebody's trying to kill her—that I could pull off. The problem was, how and why is her identical twin on the run? And what does she have? And, like, you know, she...

KJ Dell'Antonia

She needs a longer history than you can have as a teenager.

Ally Carter

Yeah, exactly. Like, is she actually working for the CIA, like, because then again, we get into Agent Cody Banks territory, then it's, you know, well, we've got a super-secret branch of the CIA who recruits kids. I'm like, no, you don't that's stupid. Like so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

And she's been there since she was 10, and now she's on the lam.

Ally Carter

Exactly.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You know, and then at age 12, she went rogue.

Ally Carter

Yeah. And then you've got, like, well, no, you know, it's a Parent Trap situation, and one of them was raised by a spy and one of them was raised by ordinary people. I'm like, oh, maybe... I don't know, but, you know, I just couldn't quite make it work. And so I was talking to Rachel, and I said, what am I supposed to do? Just dust off that old spy twin idea, except now, instead of a super-secret organization, she's just on the run from the CIA? And then I was like, wait a second.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well yes!

Ally Carter

If she's 30... she can—so every single problem and logic challenge that I had with that premise went away once those characters became 30. And so I just—and it was the easiest writing I've ever done. I feel almost guilty about how easy that book was to write; because I'd been, I'd been working at it and hammering at that idea for so long. And so it was almost like, instead of starting it at the beginning, I started it at the end of the writing process, where you have that one, like, little linchpin thing that you think, oh, but what if I do this? And then the whole plot just...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Right.

Ally Carter

So I started it there. I started at the...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Wow!

Ally Carter

Domino moment. And I'm spoiled, because it'll never be that easy again. But that's, that's how the transition went. And, you know, it's been great because my readers, they're so excited to see me. It's like, they're, I hear from readers all the time, they're like, you know, it feels like you wrote this just for me. I grew up with you, and now you're writing books for me again, and that has been very full circle and very, very fulfilling.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That, that's great. Well, you're writing them for me too. So, love that, and I think for a lot of our listeners—who I really think are going to enjoy this episode.

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

So before I let you go, can I ask you what you have read and loved lately?

Ally Carter

Oh, sweet mercy. I have been so underwater, on a—on a book, and it's been the kind of—it's been the kind of deadline and the kind of book... You know how the old adage is so true that you never learn how to write a book—you just learn how to write the book you're writing right now. And so this one has just... and when I get that way, I don't enjoy reading because my inner critic can't turn off. But I will share a show that I loved, and I—they just announced that they're not doing a season two, and I'm heartbroken over it. And that is, on Netflix, there's a Shonda Rhimes show called The Residence, and it's a murder mystery set at the White House. You know, somebody drops dead during a state dinner. And it's got kind of a kooky detective and a wonderful, colorful cast, and it's very, very funny, but it also—it threads that tonal needle, where, like, no, no, there was a murder. This is still serious, but, oh, by the way, I'm going to go look at the body, but first I saw a bird I want to check out, you know. And so it's just—tonally and voice-wise—it does really amazing things. And so if any of your listeners are looking for a really great, like, eight-episode series, it's great. I could not recommend it more—The Residence on Netflix.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That sounds super fun. Well, I am in the midst of The Blonde Who Came In from the Cold. So, you know, I don't normally recommend a book until I know if the writer is going to stick a landing. But I feel quite confident in this one, and have enjoyed—as you can obviously hear from the podcast—the rest of Ally's work. So I am going to just push all of you listeners to, you know, head out there, grab the new one, grab the old one, and have a good time with them.

Ally Carter

Aww, thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You're welcome. Thanks so much for being here. Oh, should people follow you on social media? Do you do anything fun? Are you...?

Ally Carter

I do nothing fun. I'm not fun at all. I'm mostly on Instagram; I guess at this point I'm the Ally Carter over there. I have a couple of kind of defunct Facebook pages that I update occasionally. I just updated it for the first time, evidently, in two years. So that was fun. I'm on Threads very seldom. I used to be on Twitter and I still have that account I don't update it very often. Um, but yeah—and of course, my newsletter, like the newsletter is—I think we need to come back. We all need to get back to the newsletter, because it will deliver the news directly to your inbox. And so if you want to make sure you don't miss any like, you know, tour events, which, by the way, I'm coming to Boston on tour in a couple of weeks. So looking forward to that a lot. I think its Lovestruck Books? Is that Boston?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Probably yeah.

Ally Carter

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's the new romance bookstore there. I've been with Sarina a couple of times, and yeah, it's a great—it is a beautiful store. Like, every detail. Their bathrooms are phenomenal. That's how wonderful this store is. So, very cool. All right, I will link up the newsletter in the show notes, and yeah, about, you know, once every week, I decide to just cancel all the rest of my social media and only do my AmReading email. And then I imagine what my agent would say. And yeah, I don’t do it, but...

Ally Carter

It's, you know, and I feel like I'm such a broken record, like, oh, you know, go buy my book. Oh, go, you know, I'm going to be here on tour. Oh, this is how you get signed books. But—and I just say over and over and over again—and then inevitably, and this really happened to me one time, I was sitting at the LAX Airport waiting on a flight home, and I got an irate message from a reader that I never come to LA. And I was like, I did an event here last night—like, I was at the Barnes and Noble at The Grove or wherever—last night. And so we said, we—it feels like we are just beating a dead horse letting people know about these things, but it's so easy for things to get lost. And so...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah! Jess tells the story—that's one of my other co-hosts—about, you know, someone who had come up to her, really one of her biggest fans, “Good new book.” And, “I get your idea, I love this, and I love that you wrote, like, knew a lot.” And then she said, “Oh, well, did you enjoy my latest book?” And they're like, “You have a new book?!”

Ally Carter

It happens every time. And so, you know, it's—it's just part of the business at this point.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You've got to do it—it's just part of the business. All right. Well, thank you again...

Ally Carter

Thank you.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And as always, listeners until next week keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

Sarina’s second thriller is now out. It’s a twisty thriller with a single-mom protagonist and some deep, dark secrets. It’s called Dying to Meet You and it is creepy in the best possible way.

In this episode, Jennie interviews Sarina about the new book, and about the difference between writing romance and writing thrillers. You may think that’s obvious, but Sarina has recently shifted into writing thrillers and she has such a nuanced understanding about what it all means. She gets into what defines a genre, how you have to honor your readers expectations, and the different ways you hold tension when telling a story. It’s a masterclass in genre.

Books mentioned:Dying to Meet You, Sarina Bowen

Sarina’s other thriller, The Five Year Lie

The Guest List, Lucy Foley

On a Quiet Street, Seraphina Nova Glass

Rowan Gallagher is a devoted single mother and a talented architect with a high-profile commission restoring an historic mansion for the most powerful family in Maine. But inside, she’s a mess. She knows that stalking her ex’s avatar all over Portland on her phone isn’t the healthiest way to heal from their breakup. But she’s out of ice cream and she’s sick of romcoms.

Watching his every move is both fascinating and infuriating. He’s dining out while she’s wallowing on the couch. The last straw comes when he parks in their favorite spot on the waterfront. In a weak moment, she leashes the dog and sets off to see who else is in his car.

Instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect.

Digital books at: Amazon | Nook | Apple Books | Kobo | Google Play | AudiblePhysical books at: Bookshop.org | Amazon | Barnes & Noble | Indigo | More paperback links here!

Transcript below!

EPISODE 459 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Listeners who I know are also readers—have I got a summer book for you. If you haven't yet ordered Dying to Meet You, Sarina Bowen's latest thriller with just enough romance, you have to. So let me lay this out for you. Rowan Gallagher is a devoted single mother and a talented architect with a high-profile commission restoring a historic mansion for the most powerful family in Maine, but inside, she's a mess. She knows stalking her ex's avatar all over Portland on her phone isn't the healthiest way to heal from their breakup, but she's out of ice cream and she's sick of rom-coms. Watching his every move is both fascinating and infuriating. He's dining out while she's wallowing on the couch. The last straw comes when he parks in their favorite spot on the waterfront. In a weak moment, she leashes the dog and sets off to see who else is in his car. But instead of catching her ex in a kiss, Rowan becomes the first witness to his murder—and the primary suspect. But Rowan isn't the only one keeping secrets. As she digs for the truth, she discovers that the dead man was stalking her too, gathering intimate details about her job and her past. Struggling to clear her name, Rowan finds herself spiraling into the shadowy plot that killed him. Will she be the next to die? You're going to love this. I've had a sneak preview, and I think we all know that The Five Year Lie was among the very best reads and listens of last summer. Dying to Meet You is available in every format and anywhere that you buy books. And you could grab your copy—and you absolutely should—right now.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.

Jennie Nash

Hey, writers, I'm Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we talk about writing all the things—short things, long things, fiction, non-fiction, pitches, and proposals. I'm here today to talk to our own Sarina Bowen. Her newest thriller, Dying to Meet You, just came out a few weeks ago, and I've been dying to talk to Sarina about the way she's been switching back and forth between romance and thriller. This is her second thriller. The last one came out last year. That one's called The Five Year Lie. And so we're just here to talk about genre, and romance, and thriller, and how Sarina does it—this back-and-forth kind of code switching between genres. So, welcome, Sarina.

Sarina Bowen

Thank you. It's always fun to talk about genre. It's my favorite thing.

Jennie Nash

Well, I just was really struck when I was reading. I've been reading your romances for so long, and you have so many of them, and you're so good at them, and...

Sarina Bowen

Well, thank you.

Jennie Nash

And then here we have an entirely new genre that you have entered into in a really big way. And it's not—so this is not about, how do you come up with your idea, or how did you do it? Or—I mean, all those are great questions. We love those. And I've heard you talk about those other places. But what I want to try to get at here is this idea—really, what is genre? So when you think about that, you're sitting down to start one or this other. What do you think about, like, what are the things that—genre? What does the genre mean to you?

Sarina Bowen

Well, I talk about this a lot when I am discussing my books, which is that I don't find that—that the thriller genre and that the romance genres are all that different. Like, each one of those things makes a promise to the reader and then must deliver it by the last page. It's just that the promise is slightly different between those two things. So in a romance, the reader is promised a satisfactory romantic conclusion to the book. And in a thriller, the reader is promised that whatever mess and confusion is established on page one, that it will be rectified and solved by the end of the book—that the chaos will become at least understanding, if not order. So the thing is that the job of the novelist is kind of the same in both situations, which is, we are going to take the main character on a journey, and she is going to learn some stuff before it's over—or it's not really a novel. Now, to be fair, not every novel is constructed like that and does both of those things. Like what—what makes it feel familiar to me in both cases is that I always write an empathetic main character, and not every author of suspense does this. So there are a lot of really popular suspense novels where you're not sure who to root for, and you don't really like any of the characters. And those books can be really exciting and really well written, and there's a total—a huge audience for that. But that is not what I do in suspense space, and that doesn't make me unique. Like, there are a lot of suspense authors who also operate this way. For example, Harlan Coben and Karin Slaughter write best-selling novels of suspense where you always know who to root for from the first chapter. Like, you are given a main character who is a likable human—a flawed person—but still, like, you know, somebody to root for, and you're rooting for that person until the end of the book. So it's not like this is just my special romance author's twist on it—like, it's a thing. It's just that there are other suspense authors who don't operate under that, you know, scenario. So that's one of the reasons why, to me, like, the job feels kind of similar to writing a romance and writing a suspense the way that I do it. It's just that when I'm writing a suspense, first of all, it takes a lot longer, because a suspense reader is really there to match wits with you, and you have to deliver on—on that experience of paying a lot of attention to where the camera is swinging, and to show them some truths that will turn out to be only half-truths, and to make it a really great ride. Like, the roller coaster of a suspense novel requires more engineering than the roller coaster of a romance, and it can be a lot less linear in construction. And, you know, there are complexities that a romance does not need to—to succeed. So yeah, it's not exactly the same job. But, you know, romance requires on a different level a lot of those same narrative tricks. Like, people love to say that romances are formulaic, and I always want to cry, because if that were true, then it would be so easy. And I—I would spend less time sweating at my keyboard if a romance was formulaic, because then I would know what to do. And it's almost harder to hold the tension when the reader knows you're going to get somewhere satisfying. So, you—you know, you have to make sure that couple has some real issues to work through, and that's hard.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, we're going to come back to so many things that you're saying because...

Sarina Bowen

Okay.

Jennie Nash

This is—this is great. But I want to return to something you said at the very beginning, where you were explaining this, which is the promise to the reader, and this idea of a contract that the writer and the reader enter into. When—when a reader starts a book, there's this promise, there's this expectation, there's—And you—it sounds like what I heard from you, which I just think is so interesting, is a very deep respect for the writer—I mean, for the reader's experience. And is that something that you have as a human, or, you know, like, is it—is that just—does that just come from respect for the time somebody's going to spend and that sort of thing? Or is that respect of the genre?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, it's both. I mean, of course, we were all readers before we were writers, and I know what I find frustrating and unsatisfying in a book. So I want to deliver a reader experience that aligns with my most satisfying experiences in—in each genre. And it's such a work in progress. Like, over 10 years of delivering stories, my understanding of what really matters is constantly shifting.

Jennie Nash

Ooh, can you say more?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. So—I have the things that I like as a reader. So of course, those are going to figure in heavily. Like, I love a good secret unveiled, no matter what genre I'm reading. Like, a secret in romance that comes out and changes everything is just as satisfying as when that happens in suspense, even though it's less necessary. And each genre has its own bell curve of stakes, let's just say. Like, if you picture a bell curve of stakes—for romance, you could have on the lower end, like a rom-com, where the stakes, you know, are only as large as this couple. And in a thriller, like in an international spy thriller, the stakes could be like, the world might end, or—or a bomb might go off in the middle of Times Square, you know. So there's a bell curve of stakes. And as a—as a writer, I'm not suggesting that you can't, you know, move around on that bell curve and make it work for you. But the two genres—you know, the bell curves are in different spots, and you have to figure out where you are on that gradient of possible results, and then figure out where your stakes are coming from. And I guess what it took me a real—a really long time to learn is how much in control I am of what the reader is paying attention to, and what the reader is focused on, and that the best way to write a novel is almost always to ask yourself, what experience do I want the reader to have? And then figure that out. Like, it's almost like—if you think about roller coaster design, and there's just this really fun video on the WIRED Magazine website with an actual roller coaster designer who shows you how it's done.

Jennie Nash

Oh that's very cool. We'll get the link for that in the show notes.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I'll try to find it. But it makes you think about all these things you don't think about when you're getting on it. Like, your view of getting on a roller coaster is that weird little shed where you step into the car, and you know, you pull on your protective stuff, and you think to yourself, like, whoa, I hope it doesn't fail this time—ha ha ha. And then you experience it, you know. And certain parts of the ride are really predictable, like the initial climb—like, no roller coaster starts without that initial climb—and then the first drop. And, you know, parts of the experience, you—you know before you get on what's going to happen. And then other parts of it are just like, you know, a thrill a minute, like waving you around, and, oh, you didn't see that curve coming. And so, you know, looking at that thing and designing it from the outside to have that experience is something I didn't realize I had to do. Like, as a reader of genre fiction, I just experienced everything like the person getting on the roller coaster at the beginning. And it's taken me, like, a decade to realize that, you know, I have to actually view this thing—like, plan ahead. What—you know, what I want people to feel. Like, where do I want them to cry? Where are we going to laugh? Like, how can we put those two things in the same book? And you know, that—that's the job, and I really like it. But it requires a certain amount of analysis, which is why, when I meet somebody who doesn't plan their books, I'm always, like, stunned. Although, you know, it can—it can work.

Jennie Nash

That idea of what you want the reader to feel is why we're having this conversation. Because I actually can barely stand to read suspense or thrillers, because I get too scared. I really get into it, and I—I freak myself out, and it's been that way for a very long time. But I really wanted to read yours, because I wanted to see this shift in your professional life, and I wanted to see what all the buzz was about, because people are loving these thrillers. And I thought, oh, I surely can handle this now. But it's so hard for me because—and you do such a good job of making that scary tension so palpable, and that what you feel as the reader. And then I was thinking about why the same thing happens in Sarina's romances. I feel something. You know, you're—there's a tension that you're wanting, a resolution that you're—what—you know, wondering, will they? Will they, you know, declare their love for each other? Will they—whatever the thing is? And it just really struck me that I'm in the hands of somebody who's not manipulating that, but has engineered that form. And so it's curious to hear that you're—that's the work you feel that you do. So can you talk about how that is different from plotting the novel—that emotional engineering, if you will? Or is it?

Sarina Bowen

No, you're right. It is—it is? Um, so one of the things that I feel I'm pretty good at is establishing empathy early in the book. And I—uh, like I said, there are some thriller authors who write entire books without doing that—like, where you're not sure who you're supposed to like. But to me, that actually seems harder, because if you establish empathy for some characters early on, then the stakes are automatically higher.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Because the reader cares about that person.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And I read a book a couple years ago that I thought was so good with this, and it was On a Quiet Street by Seraphina Nova Glass. And she establishes empathy with a character in the prologue, and then chapter one establishes empathy with a different one. And she has this sort of medley of voices that tells this story of something dire happening on a quiet street. And the thing is that she does later—is she really shifts your empathy around, where you care about all these people but you can't—like, because somebody is guilty. So, you know, the length of your empathy is actually going to be snipped in a couple of places, which I think is masterful. And I think it's more masterful than the thriller author who, um, doesn't care if you like anybody but is still delivering, like, big shocks. To me, that just has less emotional resonance, and I care less. But apparently, that's unique to me, because if you look at The New York Times bestseller list, it does not reflect my preference for empathy.

Jennie Nash

So what do you do to create that empathy? How are you doing that work in the start of the book?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, wow, I never think about this.

Jennie Nash

I'm sure you—sure you have an answer, though.

Sarina Bowen

No, I—yeah. Okay, so I guess the reason that my thrillers read a little bit like my romances to you, is that I really like a female main character who is like one of us, who's just trying to get through the day. And maybe she has even a glamorous job, and she's a super successful person, but that doesn't mean she's not, like, a little bit of a mess inside—but a relatable mess. So establishing empathy early on, to me, is just like breathing. Like, you know, we might have this glamorous job, but, my God, the world is just so irritating. Or—right? Or, how did we just, you know, make ourselves sound like—like a dunderhead in front of the hot guy or whatever, you know? Like, to me, that's not hard.

Jennie Nash

Right, right. And so you talked about engineering and complexity as a difference between the two genres, and that the thrillers require more engineering of plot, is what I imagine you're referring to. How do you go about—how does it differ? So here you're creating a character. You're creating empathy for the character. And now these genres are going to go in really different directions. What? What are the steps? Not like, how do you do it, or how do you write a novel, but sort of almost your emotional steps, like, okay, now I need to do X, or now I need to—I want them to feel Y.

Sarina Bowen

Right. Well, one way to think about it—and this works for almost any novel that you'd ever want to write—is you have to look at the sort of landscape of this story you're going to tell, or the plot you think you're going to pull off, and you have to say, what are my "oh s**t moments"?

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Where do I want the reader to go, oh s**t? And if you don't know that when you start the book—like, I would find that to be a problem.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And you don't have to know exactly where they're standing when this happens, or exactly what page of the book. I'm actually terrible at that. I never know how long anything is going to take. But—but you have to know what that oh s**t moment is. And then you have to sort of back—work backwards from that. Like, okay, well, if I know why that's a big problem and a big deal—like, why is it, and how am I going to set that up? So—and I also think ahead of time about the fun and games part of any book.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Like, what is the sort of rising action of, like, the learning about it and the deepening of the problem. So I'm working on a romance right now that takes place at a wedding.

Jennie Nash

Fun!

Sarina Bowen

And I... yeah, well okay, is it, though? Because one of, one the reasons I chose this setting, is that it's a hockey player. And I've written so many hockey books that take place, like, at the arena and at the office. And I'm like; we got to get out of here. Um, so we're both going to a wedding—this—we have to go to the same wedding, and work—everything's going to happen here. And I never write weddings. And then I'm into it, and I'm writing this wedding, and I look at myself and I'm like, you know why we don't write weddings? We don't like weddings very much.

Jennie Nash

What don't you like about them?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, because they're all the same. I don't know. It's—to me, they feel—I guess I'm not a really reverent person. Like, ceremony isn't a big part of my life, and I don't love it. So—um, so what I was able to do in this book that makes this book something that I can identify with is that neither one of our characters is totally excited to be here, either. So there's some problems like this. There's some real family mayhem that is preventing either of these characters from being like, woo hoo, wedding! Yeah, let's have a good time! And then—yeah, so I have to bring my own experience into it. And then, of course, the ceremony itself—it turns out they're both feeling a lot of things. And, you know, there's this very lovely part right at the beginning. I'm like, okay, okay, so we got here, we can feel the feelings, but we didn't have to, like, every moment of this wedding for—to pull it off. So—um—but I looked at my, like, little scaffolding of what I wanted these characters to experience and what their "oh s**t moments" might be, and then I sort of grafted them onto the typical wedding experience and, you know, tried to find the best matches for that. And that was kind of the work of this book.

Jennie Nash

So the "oh s**t moment" in a romance is—what would some of those be? Like, oh, I think—I think he likes me, or, oh, I think I like him? Like, is it those ratcheting up of the emotional stakes?

Sarina Bowen

It's—yes. Like, oh s**t, I can't believe I have revealed myself like this. I have exposed myself like this. I have made myself vulnerable. And then—and then, as the—as the arc goes on, you're like, oh s**t, here's why I don't usually do this...

Jennie Nash

Right.

Sarina Bowen

Here's the reason I didn't want to make myself vulnerable and exposed—because, oh s**t, you know? Like—so you get to—you get to play with that. And hopefully, in most romances, there's a moment when, you know, it looks like it's all going to go wrong.

Jennie Nash

Right. So what strikes me in listening to you, is that, writing about human nature—of course, because they're people and their stories—and the human nature around romance is—well, you said, I don't want to reveal myself or be vulnerable, so you want to protect your heart. And in the thrillers, it's, I want to protect my body and the bodies of the people I love. Is that—is that a fair differentiator? Like, we're trying to keep ourselves safe in some profound way in each of these genres, right?

Sarina Bowen

Right. And we're also trying to avoid betrayal, and, like, to avoid backing the wrong horse in both genres as well.

Jennie Nash

Ooh, that's interesting, right? Let's talk about that.

Sarina Bowen

Well—um, in a thriller, one of the best ways to craft a twist is when you get the reader to back the wrong character. And, you know, you have multiple characters, and if—even if you're going along with a relatable protagonist that the reader knows is not going to turn into a bad guy—that person still has people around them, and they're going to trust some of them and not others. And did they pick correctly? So that's the kind of betrayal that makes a good twist. But in a romance, it's the same possibilities. Like, you know, you made yourself very vulnerable to this other romantic partner. And, you know, it might not be a straight-up betrayal of, you know, oh wait, I love someone else. But it could just be a betrayal of priorities, or, you know, of courage.

Jennie Nash

And at the end of each of these types of stories, the reader feels a sense of—we're back, we've talked about the bell curve—of back to safety, or—or homeostasis, or there's a relief, or it's going to be okay, and everything's okay now. So they have that in common too, right? That intense resolution of the tension.

Sarina Bowen

Right. And then sometimes, in suspense space, you see an author pull this off in a way that all of that is done at the reader's own level, and not at the character's. Like, there's this book I love by Lucy Foley, called The Guest List, and that book is not typical, in that the work of the book is not to solve the crime in real time in the story. The work of that book is for the reader to understand what happened—like, the reader is the sleuth.

Jennie Nash

Oh.

Sarina Bowen

But nobody is actually sleuthing the story... at all. You know what happens, but it's to the satisfaction of you as the reader, but not the people running around in the book.

Jennie Nash

Right, wow that sounds cool.

Sarina Bowen

It is very cool, but it's still true. Like, the—the work of the book is to figure out what happened, but the people on the page are not figuring out what happened. It's you having the experience that is figuring out what happened, but there's no mystery about it in the actual book. It's really—you would just have to try it.

Jennie Nash

Is it fair to say that your second thriller—the new one, Dying to Meet You—is creepier than the first one, which is, The Five Year Lie? Do you think that's fair to say? Are people saying that? Do you feel that?

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, okay—yes, a little. But I think what's a better classification is that Dying to Meet You, sits a little more fully on the thriller shelf. It has a plot arc that is more typical of thrillers that are also on that shelf than The Five Year Lie.

Jennie Nash

Okay, maybe that's what—maybe that's the feeling, because The Five Year Lie—there's a—there's a romance baked into it as well. Like, there is so much going on in there. So that's interesting, that you—did you consciously move in that direction, or did—was it just right for that story?

Sarina Bowen

I think maybe both. I can't even remember now.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Bowen

But I really loved the premise of Dying to Meet You, and I wanted to play with that. And—I mean, I guess what distinguishes them from a reader standpoint, who's, like, reading the backs of both of those books, maybe, is that there is a dead body at the beginning of one of them and not the other one. So, like, it—it lands more firmly in the reader's expectations, that Dying to Meet You is more thriller-y, because you know—it says in the flap copy, like, this book starts when somebody dies.

Jennie Nash

So you said that it was a little harder to plan out the—to engineer a thriller and the complexities. And we all know that you are a very fast and efficient writer, so I'd be curious to hear: how much time do you set aside to get the complexities and engineering of the thriller versus the romance? What's the time demand of that?

Sarina Bowen

I think, at least at this point, thrillers still require twice as much work in terms of, like, days.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. It's like six months instead of three.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. Wow. Wow. And is the moving back and forth from one to the other—do you—are you finding that satisfying? Are you finding it difficult? Like, what's that like? Because I know right now—well, you—you're working on a romance, and then thriller number three is coming up. So do you—how are you making those transitions?

Sarina Bowen

Well, I think any writer would agree that the book you're not working on today is always the one that seems more appealing.

Jennie Nash

It's always a better book…

Sarina Bowen

Right?!

Jennie Nash

Such a good book.

Sarina Bowen

So, of course, I'm in the finishing part, on the romance that I'm working on, which is, everybody knows, the hardest part, where you have to make all the toughest decisions. So I just cannot wait to write that thriller.

Jennie Nash

Do you—are you—do you cheat? Are you cheating on your romance? Like, do you—do you cheat and do a little research on the new—new thriller?

Sarina Bowen

Well, I've actually written part of that thriller already.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I wrote part of it, and then I had to stop and finish this other one. So it's not cheating exactly. It's how I had to do my crazy schedule this year, because I had two deadlines in 2024, and they're closer together than I could execute, like, a whole book in each. But cheating is a wonderful thing to do, because when you're like, technically, I'm writing the romance this month, and almost all my time is spent on that—but when you give your brain permission to, like, not be finishing that other book, it goes in all these exciting places, and it comes up with stuff for you. So even though I'm writing a romance this month, I have made notes in my notebook for, like, four other books, some of which I might never write.

Jennie Nash

Oh, that's so funny. Well...

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

Jennie Nash

And—and are they thrillers or romance?

Sarina Bowen

Oh, just that—we're all over the place here. Like, I have made notes for... a romance in an ongoing series, that I'm not sure if I'm continuing, for an unrelated romance that I might never write, and I have, like, scribbled down plot frameworks for unrelated books in two other genres that I probably—probably will never write.

Jennie Nash

So it's interesting—that's an interesting habit that you're talking about. Because I often see with writers—there was an agent, and I can't remember who it is, which pains me—but they said something that was just so funny and so clever, which was a criticism of a writer who—the phrasing would be, you know, "puts everything and the kitchen sink into every book." But the way this agent framed it was, it was "no note left behind." You know, every note you have goes into the book—and that—that's not good. And you have such a restraint. It's not like, oh, here's a good idea, I'm going to shoehorn it into what I'm writing now. I'm going to shoehorn it into the thriller. I'm going to, you know, wedge it in here. You—this restraint of where an idea belongs or doesn't belong, or that it might get written or might not get written—where do you think that discernment or restraint comes from?

Sarina Bowen

You know, it doesn't feel like restraint when I'm in the middle of trying to finish a book. Like, every book feels like—so messy. You know, it's like, if I'm building a roller coaster, like, the parts are laying all over the field right now. Like, that's how it feels at every moment. And even for the end of this book, I have, like, written—scribbled down ideas for, like, nine different scenes, and they're not all going to make it, and they're going to have to duke it out.

Jennie Nash

The scenes are going to have to duke it out?

Sarina Bowen

Yes. And, like, oh, this would be cute. Oh, that would be cute. Oh, this would be cute. But you can't have them all—like, they're not—that just doesn't work. So I'm looking for the best, most efficient way to execute that emotional arc that the end of this book needs.

Jennie Nash

Yeah. yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And I do—okay, fine, maybe it is restraint, because I do care about efficiency. Like, I'm not just going to write and write and write and write because I had a cute little thing that I wanted somebody to say. Because in order to put all that stuff in, I'm going to need too much, like, filler—junk.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, that is restraint, Sarina. That is totally restraint.

Sarina Bowen

Well, honestly, I think one of my strengths—like, writers don't think about their strengths all that often, to be honest. Like, we only think about the stuff that's hard. But one of my strengths has always been that every scene is accomplishing, like, two or three things. Like, no bit of dialog is ever just in there because my brain spat it out when I was sitting at a keyboard. Like, it has to be doing something.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

So I have to look at this little collection of cute scenes and—um—make it do something. Just yesterday, I thought, wouldn't it be funny if the rookie on the team that shows up for this new season to start—you know, after the wedding—spoke entirely in Gen Alpha slang, like my 19-year-old? So I wrote, like, a little bit of dialog where he does this in a—in the rink, and—and the—the main character of the book is like, oh, my God, I don't even know what you just said. And I'm like, oh, I'm so cute and funny. This is going to be great. And then I realized that I just didn't need a bit of discussion in the rink. So I moved that conversation to a different spot, where the heroine was also present. And, like, she jumps in and responds in Gen Alpha slang and to—like, to solve his issue. And the hero is impressed. So, you know, I just needed—it was a fun idea, but I needed it to work harder.

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

And then I found a way for it to work harder. But if I hadn't, then that bit was just going to have to be cut. It could just go somewhere else—a different book, a different day.

Jennie Nash

There's a scene in The Five Year Lie where the main character is on a bus—a very long bus trip with her small child—and it goes on for some time at a place in the novel where the tension is pretty high. And I read it—I read it three times, actually, because I was like, what is going on here? What's... what am I—what am I supposed to take away? Like, what? What's happening here? What's—you know, what is the work that this scene is doing? I was curious about it because it felt—the feeling really shifted for me as the reader, where it was a tension reliever for one thing. Like, the tension was really high, and so it was a sort of a chance to breathe. And then there was something that happened on the bus trip that made things much, much worse for this character, so that they're showing up in an even more vulnerable place. Like—and I started seeing the layers of what was happening on that bus trip. And that—I think that's another strength you have—is that the—you don't show your hand. The reader has to work if they want to figure out what—what are all these scenes doing? Like, because you're just in it as the reader. But it was... it was sort of beautiful. I sort of loved that scene because I saw—well, I was trying to figure it out, but I saw, oh, I see what's happening here. I know what she's doing. Like, this is cool. I don't know, you're very good at—uh, like I said, not showing your hand. It's not—you don't see the mechanism of the engineer when you're reading the books.

Sarina Bowen

Well, thank you. That scene—I actually am. It's the first thing I wrote for that book.

Jennie Nash

What?!

Sarina Bowen

Which is—yeah, I know.

Jennie Nash

That is so interesting.

Sarina Bowen

It comes really deep in the book. That's why Jennie is so surprised, because it's, like, near the end. But I wrote that scene in my head—which, you know, you sort of almost never do—five years before the book came out. Like, I was—I was wandering around this town nearby while my kid took a violin lesson, and I thought of that. I'm like; wouldn't it be terrifying if you were on a bus, you know? And I thought it—like, I scared myself with this idea of how vulnerable she is at that moment in time. Like you said, it's a moment of safety, and it sort of is a little bit, because, you know, nobody can get her on the bus. But at the same time, if you read the prologue, you realize that, like, it's not really a moment of safety because—and then also, then I did that thing that makes her even more vulnerable. And that's the thing that scared me. Like, I'm like, oh, that would be really bad. And then I sort of filed that away in my head until I figured out what book it fit in.

Jennie Nash

Oh yeah, it's brutal. It's a brutal moment.

Sarina Bowen

But then—but that actual scene, like, that is a really long bus ride, and I had to keep cutting that scene. Like, I wrote it, and I cut it down, and I cut it down, and I cut it down, because I didn't want it to drag. And it was actually really hard to get that right. But people mention that scene to me a lot, so I'm staying—and they don't say, hey, that scene lasted too long.

Jennie Nash

No—well, when I say it's a moment of safety, it's—what I mean is, she's gotten away from the immediate threat. So there's a—there's a chance to sort of take a little bit of a deep breath. But as it goes on and on, it—that scene—she's on all the different buses, is what I mean. She's moving toward- like, there's a lot that could be really bad. So it was great. So to wrap up, can you tell us what you want to tell us about Dying to Meet You? So to entice those who like to be—match wits with the writer and be in a tense thriller, and there's a sort of haunted house vibe to this one. Tell us. Tell us about this book.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, so—who doesn't love a creepy old mansion? That's kind of what this book is about. But also, the dedication to this book tells, like, a lot of what I was thinking about when I wrote it. And the dedication is to my sons: "Thank you for sharing your location with me so that I could think up the terrifying plot of this book." And when there's—when my older son had got his—got an e-bike is when I first opened the—that app where I could see his location, because I wanted to make sure he got places safely, because I was really terrified. But that—the weird thing of being able to watch him in real time, like his—the blue dot move on the map—um, I thought that was, like, so existentially creepy. And I just thought—kept thinking to myself, like, what's the worst thing that could happen with this? Like, if I'm—if I find this creepy, you know, what if it really was, you know? And that's just kind of where I went from that. And it turned out to be a really good time.

Jennie Nash

My husband likes this app called FlightAware that tracks the airplanes. And when my children fly, he's always saying, "Oh, they're over wherever." And I'm like, nope, nope. I want none of this information. I do not wish to know where in the sky my child is hanging,

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jennie Nash

I don't wish to know that.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I get it. I get it.

Jennie Nash

So, Dying to Meet You—out now. So good. Before that, The Five Year Lie. There's a third one coming that you'll be writing soon. So we get Sarina Bowen—romance, thriller, back and forth for the foreseeable future?

Sarina Bowen

I hope so. Let's keep it going.

Jennie Nash

Awesome. Well, thank you for chatting about genre and how you do it. It's always fun to get inside your brain. And for our listeners—until next time, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

Jess, Sarina, Jennie and Jess are all here to talk about taking a break from various angles: the mechanics angle, the guilt angle, the fear angle, the identity angle and inspiration angle.

Mechanics.

* Leave yourself notes about the project when you leave off, for example, “The next thing that needs to happen is this…” so when you come back, you know how to get back into the project. This is Sarina’s daily practice, but it really helps when she has to leave a project behind. This can be especially helpful when you have to go away for an unexpected emergency.

* Jennie adds that the only way you can do this is if you have a place to keep and find those notes to yourself. In one of your 47 notebooks or in the document itself? Or, as Jess adds, on the side of the cardboard box you use for trash in your basement workshop that you almost recycle by accident.

* Jennie also notes that you have to have intentionality, to know what you are writing so you can know what comes next, whether that’s in your outline, inside outline, or whatever.

* Jennie has a little notebook she brings on vacation with her and she downloads those ideas into that just before going to sleep at night when she’s away.

* These vacation inspiration moments are much like shower thoughts, part of the magic of our brain unhooking, getting into deep default mode network, and becoming its most creative.

* Sarina mentioned an article about how walking makes you more creative, also a study in why tapping into the default mode network is so effective as a practice.

Fear

* The only way to get over this is to sit down and do it. Open the document. Just start.

* Jennie points out that getting back into a manuscript when it’s disappeared feels horrifying but it’s much easier than it sounds and has happened to one of our frequent guests, Sarah Stewart Taylor, when her then-toddler created a password for the document that was not recoverable. She had to give in to the fact that her book was gone, and recreate it out of her memory.

Guilt and Identity

* It only took Jess until her fiftieth year to figure out that her process - of walking, gardening, beekeeping, musing - is a part of writing, and that’s cool.

* Can you be a writer if you are not actively writing? Yes, if research, planning, thinking and otherwise cogitating is a part of your writing process. Get over it. The words have to land on the page eventually, of course, but if you are doing both, have grace for the not-actively-writing part of the writing process.

#AmReading

Tess Gerritsen’s series set in Maine (The Spy Coast and The Summer Guests) and, once she finished those two books, Jess went back to The Surgeon, where it all started for Tess Gerritsen. Stay tuned for our interview with her!

Andy Weir’s Project Hail Mary (Don’t watch the movie trailer if you plan to read the book!)

Sarah Harman’s All the Other Mothers Hate Me

Amy Tintera’s Listen for the Lie

Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer The Unfolding

Richard Osman’s The Thursday Murder Club (coming to Netflix in August!)

Janelle Brown’s What Kind of Paradise

Want to submit a first page to Booklab? Fill out the form HERE.

Writers and readers, KJ here, if you love #AmWriting and I know you do, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly #AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been #AmDoing: sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done, which I mean that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at kjdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing.

Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 458 - TRANSCRIPT

KJ Dell'Antonia

Writers and readers, KJ here. If you love Hashtag AmWriting, and I know you do, and especially if you love the regular segment at the end of most episodes where we talk about what we've been reading, you will also love my weekly Hashtag AmReading email. Is it about what I've been reading and loving? It is. And if you like what I write, you'll like what I read. But it is also about everything else. I've been ‘hashtag am-doing’, sleeping, buying clothes and returning them, launching a spelling bee habit, reading other people's weekly emails. Let's just say it's kind of the email about not getting the work done—which, I mean, that's important too, right? We can't work all the time. It's also free, and I think you'll really like it. So you can find it at KJdellantonia.com or kjda.substack.com or by clicking on my name on Substack, if you do that kind of thing or of course in the show notes for this podcast. Come hang out with me. You won't be sorry.

Multiple Speakers

Is it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the weekly podcast, while writing all the things—short things, long things, pitches, proposals, fiction, nonfiction. And somebody told me they thought this was a recorded intro. And I just want you to know I do this live every time, which is why there's this, come on, there's more variety here, people, and you should know that. Anyway, here we are, all four of us, for we got a topic today. But before we do that, we should introduce ourselves in order of seniority, please.

Jess Lahey

I'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And I laugh, because when you said seniority, all I could do was think of us in our little eave space in my old house, down the street from you, not knowing what the heck we were doing. But yeah, we've been doing this for a long time now. You can find my... you can find my journalism at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, at The Atlantic, and everything else at Jessicalahey.com.

Sarina Bowen

I'm Sarina Bowen. I'm the author of many novels. My new one this fall is called Thrown for a Loop, and it will be everywhere that books are sold, which is very exciting to me, and all about me at Sarinabowen.com.

Jennie Nash

I am the newest of the co-hosts, and so happy to be among this group of incredibly smart and prolific and awesome women, and I'm the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, which is a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And you can find us at bookcoaches.com or authoraccelerator.com.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I'm KJ Dell'Antonia. I'm the author of three novels, the latest of which is Playing the Witch Card, and the most televised of which is The Chicken Sisters—Season Two coming soon to a Hallmark network near you. And I'm also the former editor and lead writer of The Motherlode, making me our... well, and Jennie too, like the crossover. I've done too many different kinds of writing—probably should have stayed in my lane. Oh well. And our plan today—as we're recording, it is summer. And a pretty frequent thing that happens in the summer is that you need to put your project down for a little while, because you have house guests, because you're going on the kind of vacation that does not involve working, because you just need a break or you're sick. That's not really a summer thing, but it definitely happens. Anyway, we wanted to talk about how, you know, what—what do you do to make that work better?

Jess Lahey

I think a lot about being a parent and needing to take a break too. And you know, this is something I talk a lot about with, you know, other writers who are sort of struggling, especially since I read a lot about parenting—who are struggling to—with that guilt of, you know, like, I feel like I owe my time to the words, and I feel like I owe my time to the children. And finding a way to take a break from the words and not feel guilty about not being with the words can be really, really hard, especially when you're going gung-ho on something. So I want to make sure that we figure out a way to have a break without guilt. That's like the big question I get a lot—is, how do you, you know, either from the parenting or the writing side?

KJ Dell'Antonia

And I was thinking about it more from a mechanics side.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

How do you put this thing aside for a week or two weeks or even a month? And know where you were?

Jess Lahey

Right.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And come back and feel like it does not take you forever to dig in.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. Um, so we've got the guilt question. We've got the mechanics of how to do it. And I would just like to add a layer, which is the fear factor.

Jess Lahey

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I have this thing where, when I walk away from a manuscript, I become afraid of it. So it seems scarier when I take a break. Like, even if it's not true—that I don't know where I am or that I become unmoored from the channel of that book and it seems intimidating to go back to.

Jess Lahey

Can I add one more layer as well? And that's the identity factor. You know, if I identify as a writer, what am I if I'm not actively writing something? And that messes my head up a lot. So I would love to add that added layer in as well and make sure we discuss that.

Jennie Nash

Well, and I have something totally different from all of those, which is that I often find when I go on vacation, I am more inspired and motivated to work on my project than I was in my real life. It tends to light a fire under me. So then I'm faced with that choice of, you know, wanting to really lean into it. And, you know, just like a really small piece of that story is, I love to write on airplanes. I just love it. Give me a very long flight, and it's—I just want to work and not talk to anybody. And, you know, it's awesome. So I feel some guilt around that. When I'm with my family, it’s like, don't talk to me, don't watch movies. You know, I'm—I'm enjoying my plane time, doing my work. So I have that reality.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, that's the choice that you have to start with, is, am I just, you know, can I not? Am I—do I need to accept the reality, which is that this is a beach trip with extended family and some, you know, my—to multiple generations, and I inevitably am going to be the person who is cooking and figuring out where the garbage has to go in the Airbnb? I should, you know, I—I will feel better if I just accept the reality that I'm not going to wake and work. Or, you know, is it a—is it a trip where you can schedule some work time and want to? Or is it a trip where you affirmatively want to give yourself a break? Or is it also, I mean, I sort of think that the last possibility—well, there are probably multiples—is I just want to touch this every day. So I feel like you can kind of—you're like, you're either like, just—no, not going to happen, not going to pretend it's going to happen, not going to feel the guilt. That's the—that's where we are. And there's sort of a, I just want to open the file every day and keep it warm and friendly. And on, you know these three—three days I have an hour.

Jess Lahey

So let's do this. Let's—let's do mechanics first, since that's the real nuts-and-bolts stuff, and then we'll talk about all the touchy-feely stuff after that. So let's do mechanics first. It sounds like you have thoughts, KJ…?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, I was actually thinking that Sarina did this pretty recently.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, that's true.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. Like, you know, I, um, I have found mechanically that leaving yourself notes every time you walk away from your manuscript is a good thing. So this is sort of like a best practices in your life idea, where I will have a writing day, and it's done now, and I'm going to get up and go do other things in my life. If I pick up my notebook, and I write down where I am—like, okay, and the next thing that has to happen is this—like, it could be really short or not. But taking better notes about the structure of the thing I'm working on is serving me on so many levels that it just slots right in here. Like, I took a big trip in April, and I thought I might work, but then I didn't, and I really seamlessly came right back in, because I knew where I was, and I avoided a lot of my own fear. So, if the practices that help you become a good day-to-day writer also can be practices that help you in this very instance, the mechanics of picking up your book again are that you left yourself a note right in your document, um, or in your notebook, that says, and here's what I think is supposed to happen next. And, yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's going to be gold for an unexpected break too, because that happens, you know, right? You get one of those phone calls, and it's a week before you're back or more.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah. I love this practice. This is one of those things I forget to do.

Jennie Nash

I feel like I—I feel like I have to add to that a couple things. That the only reason you can do that is, A, if you have a place to take notes, which—which could be your, the document itself that you're working on. But Sarina talked about a notebook, right? You have a place that you know, that you can find that, which is not an insignificant thing to have, or...

Sarina Bowen

Correct!

Jennie Nash

Right?! Or, in the case of me, it's like, I have 47 notebooks. Well, which one did I put the note in?

Sarina Bowen

Right.

Jennie Nash

But then the second thing is, I mean, this is something that I find so inspiring about the way you work, Sarina, and it—and it's a thing that I teach—is you have to know what you're writing, you know, in order to know where you are, what the structure is, and what you're doing, and to ask those—like, you have to have done the thought work of what, what it is you're trying to do and what your intention is. Otherwise, you sort of don't ever know where you are or where you're going. So...

Sarina Bowen

Right, but that's on two levels. Like, you could—let's just say you have successfully written yourself an Inside Outline, you know, the way that you do it—you still might need that granular thing.

Jennie Nash

Oh yeah!

Sarina Bowen

Like, you might know where you are in the arc of the book, but you might actually need the note that's like, "And now we're going to wash the dishes." I mean, let's please not put that in the novel, but you know what I mean.

Jennie Nash

Yeah, yeah. But that intentionality of, on the big picture, what am I doing, and on the small picture—in this chapter, in this scene, in this moment, and with this character—what was I... how'd that fit into the whole? What was I thinking? And those things are not—they're not easy. Like, we're talking about them like, "Oh, you just..." You know, like I was saying, what if you have 47 notebooks? That literally is a problem I have. It's like, I know I wrote this note down, and I don't know where I put it—digitally or analog.

Sarina Bowen

Right. I confess I actually do still have this problem. Like, even with all of my best practices, like, put into—sometimes it's like, well, is that in the document, or is it in my notebook? And then—or I thought about it at four in the morning and actually didn't write it down anywhere. And I'm looking anyway...

Jennie Nash

Oh, I do that too. I absolutely do that too. I'm convinced that I left a note while I was driving—that's a thing I often do. I'll leave—I'll have Siri write me a note, and then somehow it doesn't appear, or it's like, I know I did this, I know I asked her to do this... you know.

Jess Lahey

I actually have—I was doing the recycling, and I realized that I was in big trouble because three sides of a box I'd had down in the basement with me while I was working on a project—I was doing something with my, getting some beehives ready—and I was listening to an audiobook that is research for a project I'm working on, and I had scribbled some really important notes to myself about how I was supposed to start a chapter on. And it was a great start. It was like a whole paragraph on the three sides of the box, with an old Sharpie I found down in the basement. And then I realized I almost recycled, like, some really useful outline stuff.

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

Jess Lahey

So normally—no, so I actually have them. While you guys are talking about something else, since we do see each other while we're recording this, I'll show you later. But the thing that I normally do is either in the document, like right where I left off, or in my main notebook, because I am so bad at finding those notes that I have strewn all over my office or on the side of a cardboard box.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I have had the problem lately of I'm not in a manuscript, and that it's much easier when you're in a manuscript to come back to a manuscript, but I'm in a notebook full of assorted random Blueprint challenge, you know, like trying to—I'm, I'm in figuring out where this is going mode, which means I do a lot of thinking while I'm not working that then hopefully I go and write down. But it also means that I frequently sit down and I'm like, well, am I going to think about who these people are? Am I going to think about what the plot is? What am I going to do? So I've been trying to leave myself like a task, something that will, that will just get me, get me back in, because sometimes that's the problem. I, you know, I open the notebook, and there's no obvious thing to do, and the next thing I know, I'm buying running shoes.

Jennie Nash

Well, since we're talking about nuts and bolts, when I said that I often get inspired when I go away or go on vacation and I want to work, I'm not talking about I'm going to go sit in a library or coffee shop for three hours. What, what I mean by that is I often have ideas that I want to capture, and so I have a little notebook that I bring on vacation, and what I like to do is go to bed early enough that I can download all the things I thought that day. I need that space and time to—if it's, if I'm working on something, it's in my head. It's not going to not be in my head. And so the one sort of new mechanical thing that I, that I do, is have that "vacation notes notebook" with me.

KJ Dell'Antonia

I always carry one, and I never use it. So there's that.

Jess Lahey

I get—I am at my most inspired to write when I specifically can't write, which is usually behind the wheel of my car. So I use, in my car, I have been known to, you know, either scribble on things—which, totally don't do that—or to record myself on my phone. But then, audio things, I'm particularly bad at going back and listening to; that seems like it's just too much work. So those tend to get lost a lot. I need to come up with a better system for that. But it is predictable that if I am in a place where I cannot physically write, I will be at my most inspired to write.

Jennie Nash

Jess, that's kind of what I'm talking about. That's what happens to me, is I might say I'm leaving all work behind. I'm going off the grid. I'm not doing the thing. And that's when I most want to do the thing. And I, like, my brain seems to really get inspired. What? What do you think that's about? Is that...

Jess Lahey

I, you know, I, I was very worried that it was my sort of, um—sorry, what's the word I'm looking for? It was—it's my, my brain's way of saying, "Oh, you couldn't possibly work now, so let's have some of the best ideas so that you seem like a good little doobie writer, but it's physically impossible for you to write now." It's just a really weird thing, and maybe one of the other things I thought about is that I'm often listening to a book that I'm really into, which also inspires me to write. I've been listening to a lot of really great books lately, and you can't listen to a book—even one that inspires you deeply—and actually write at the same time, which is another quandary.

Sarina Bowen

You know what, though? This is not uniquely your brain messing with you—like, this is shower thoughts.

Multiple Speakers

[Overlapping: “Mm-hmm.” “Sorry.” “Ohhh...”]

Sarina Bowen

But everybody—everybody has those great ideas in the shower, and it's because you have unhooked yourself. You are just in there with the shampoo and the conditioner and that razor that you probably should change the blade with, and like, you know, there is nowhere to write and nothing to do. So your brain is like, I am free right now to unclench and actually solve this problem of chapter 17, and that's what—that's what happens.

Jess Lahey

It is my duty, whenever we mention this, to bring up that—years ago, Ron Lieber, the write... uh... the "Your Money" columnist at The New York Times, told me that he has a waterproof little whiteboard situation that’s— that lives in the shower. He and his wife, Jodi Kantor—amazing writer as well, Pulitzer Prize–winning writer, even— that these would be people who might just need a waterproof whiteboard in the shower with them.

Sarina Bowen

But would that ruin the magic…?

KJ Dell'Antonia

It might just...

Multiple Speakers

[all laughing]

Jess Lahey

If you had a place to write it down, your brain would—like—be... your brain would say, "Sorry, I'm not coming up with good ideas."

Sarina Bowen

Because I don't think I am willing to take this risk. I take a lot of risks in my life, but this one—like; we do not mess with the shower thoughts. I think, I think...

KJ Dell'Antonia

So, so what do we do if you didn't do any of this? If what—you know—what are—you're listening to this podcast, coming back from your trip, and you're like, I... was writing... something...

Sarina Bowen

You know what, though? I almost feel that we should point out the fact that, like, that is kind of unlikely. Like, somebody should feel welcome to take this trip and to have all those thoughts, and even if you didn't write them down on your whiteboard in the shower or on your handy notebook, like, I would argue that unhitching yourself in the first place possibly leads to a lot of creative development that, even if you don't capture it in the moment, is still with you. Like, I had this fantastic trip in April. I thought I was going to work, and then I did not, and it was, like, the best two weeks of my life. So then, the other day, my husband said, “Hey, there's a new article you need to read in The Athletic,” which is a New York Times sports blog, and I have just pulled it up so that we can recommend it, about how walking makes you a better problem solver. And the framing story of this article is about a retired baseball coach, but, um, but then, when they got around to studying it, um, they said this question planted the seed for the first set of studies to measure if walking produces more creativity. In the series of experiments, Oppezzo and Schwartz [Marily Oppezzo & Daniel L. Schwartz] asked 176 college students to complete different creative thinking tasks while sitting, walking on a treadmill, walking outside through campus, or being pushed in a wheelchair. In one example, the students had to come up with atypical uses for random objects, and anyway, on average, the students’ creative output increased by 60% when they were walking.

Jennie Nash

That's so cool!

Sarina Bowen

And the article is—it's so cool—it's called An MLB manager found value in long walks. Research suggests it’s a ‘brain-changing power’.

Jess Lahey

I have put a spot for it in the show notes. And I should mention that this is all part of what we call the default mode network. This is the—the part of our brain that is the wandering, most creative part of our brain. And we can get there lots of ways. Walking is a fantastic way to do it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Sarina, if you do have the fear of the manuscript when you're coming back to it, like, take—you know, travel back in time to maybe when you were a little less confident in your abilities. What do you do to get past the fear and sit down?

Sarina Bowen

There is only one solution, and that is sitting down. And I'm not so great at this—like, when, when the fear creeps up on me, in spite of my best intentions, man, I will do anything to avoid that sucker. And then when I finally do, and I wade back in, almost every time my response is, Oh, this isn't so bad. I know where—I kind of remember now. It's going to be fine, you know. But it's so easy to put off work out of fear. It's—it's the—it's the one big obstacle. Like, I don't put work off for other reasons, you know, because I'm tired or whatever. It's because I'm afraid that there's something fundamentally wrong with the project, or fundamentally wrong with me, and that is almost always what's keeping me from doing good work.

Jennie Nash

There was, back in the day before computers became what they are now, people would frequently lose manuscript drafts. It was just much harder to save your work. And I can't—I can't explain exactly what changed, but it was. People frequently lost huge chunks of their work if they didn't actively back up. And when I was a new coach and working with writers who would lose their manuscripts, they would be—understandably—beyond devastated. And this often was full manuscripts, just unrecoverable, full manuscripts. And it was true that if they sat down to recreate what they'd written, it would really flow from them, for that same reason—it was still in their brain. They—they had—they'd written it, so there was a sense that they had, they owned it, and they could sit down, and it was kind of quite remarkable. And I would confidently say to them, just sit down, start writing. I think it will come to you, and it always did. It's very interesting.

Jess Lahey

There's an example—we've interviewed Sarah Stewart Taylor many times now, and she tells the story of, a long time ago, her youngest managed to crawl across the computer in such a way as to create a password for the document itself, and there's nothing that can be done. She was on the phone with Word—with Microsoft—for a long time, and they're like, look, this is a password you created. We can't—that's not recoverable. So she had to go and recreate—I believe she was about a third of the way into a book—but she said that it actually flowed really well, and that, you know, she'd had it, it had been cooking and stuff like that. So that massive fear of, oh my gosh, how am I going to get back into this project when it has just disappeared? It turned out to be not a thing—that it actually came really easily to her.

Jennie Nash

Jess, you're bringing all the very weird stories today, and I'm so here for it—notes on boxes, babies making passwords.

Jess Lahey

Yeah, well, and the hard part—the funny part about that—is like, you cannot recreate a toddler, essentially, like bashing away at your keyboard and creating a password that's never coming back. Sorry.

Sarina Bowen

There is a writer—she once gave a talk that I heard—a very successful young adult author, Cynthia Leitich Smith, and she apparently wrote a discovery draft of the novel to, like, figure out what it was about and then deleted it and started over on purpose.

Jennie Nash

On purpose?!

Sarina Bowen

Yes, and everyone in the room gasped because, of course, you know that I just rather, like, been in a lot of pain. I'd rather have oral surgery than delete my first draft of a novel. But, um... but yeah, if she was unafraid to get back there after that kind of break, then I think we can all handle it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

This is true. I've never deleted a draft, but I have just gone—poofft—"Let's, let's, let's start again." In fact, almost every time. Kind of sad. I'm doing it now, actually, but it's not a full draft. Anyway. So take the breaks, right? That's what we're saying here.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, take the break.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You can break however you do it, you know, whichever thing you pick, and if you don't do what you thought you were going to do, that's cool, too. It's going to—it's going to be fine.

Jess Lahey

Can I mention something that has—so that now that we've sort of done mechanics, we've done a little bit about the fear thing, the—the identity thing—has been really hard for me, in that I have these two books that I've written, and I've written a bunch and researched a bunch of things over the past couple of years, and people keep asking me, what are you writing? What are you writing? And the reality is, like, I'm not. I'm working on something, I'm researching something, and I've written a lot of things. In fact, now I'm holding up my cardboard box pieces—I found them. But the day—I'm not, like, meeting a 1200-words-a-day goal. And sometimes I feel really... I feel like a fraud. I feel like a massive fraud. Like, what kind of writer is not actually sitting down and writing 2,000 words a day? And that's incredibly difficult for me. Like, I don't deserve to call myself a writer, even though I have a couple of books out there and I wrote—you know—did all this other stuff. But the thing that I have—there are a couple of things that have really helped—and one of those is to understand that and have some grace for myself around what I happen to know full well what my process is. Yes, I wrote a couple of book proposals that didn't turn into books, but it was only through writing the book proposals that I discovered that those books weren't something that I wanted to write, and only through doing all of this research on audiobooks and writing on the side of cardboard boxes. That's the way I've written every one of my books. And it's not—it's just what works for me. And so having a little bit of this, you know, this feeling of insecurity as a writer, I don't think is—I don't think is unique to me. I think a lot of writers feel this, and it's...

KJ Dell'Antonia

No, all the rest of them are...

Jess Lahey

All of them are really...

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, no, everyone else is just like, well, of course. No, I'm not an imposter.

Jess Lahey

But what's great is when I sit down with other writers and I say, what is an integral part of your process that isn't actually about putting the words on the page? That's not some bogus, like, excuse for not writing. You know, the gardening is part of it, the—the research is part of it, the listening to audiobooks is part of it. The writing—or the walking—is part of it. And it's not just a part of it. It is an incredibly important part of it for me, and—and understanding that and owning that about myself has been really a good thing for allowing myself to not—I'm not productive when I just feel guilty or like an imposter every day. It—that's not good for my process. But none of you ever feel that, right?

KJ Dell'Antonia

Or apparently the people around you…

Jess Lahey

The other thing that has been—well, the other thing that's been really, really helpful is the—and especially from the parenting perspective—is, or the marriage perspective, or the dog perspective, or the bees perspective, is I need to be fully committed to the thing right in front of me when I'm doing that thing. And if I'm feeling guilty about not being with the words when I'm with my children, or not being with my children when I'm with the words, that is awful, too. And so I have found that when I have to let go of all the other stuff and be fully, 100% in, I'm highly distractible. And so if I'm not fully in the thing, and that—all that guilt of not being over there doing that other thing—that's just taking away from the actual process of writing or researching or whatever it is, or taking care of my bees. I have to be fully in the thing I'm in and not feel guilty about not doing something else. And that's been a growth moment for me, too. It only took me—how old am I? I'm 55 now, and I got there somewhere around 50, I think.

Jennie Nash

There is also—I mean, I—I love what you're saying, and that is a thing to strive for, for sure—to be, to be present in whatever you're doing. But there is also this idea—I always think of it as mental real estate—that you leave for your project, for your idea, for your writing, for your book. That you, that you have a space in your brain devoted to that, and that you visit, whether or not you're producing words. And I think that that, too, is writing. I think, in some ways, that's more writing than sitting at the keyboard. I mean, I always object to the process of just putting words down. And a lot of the things that challenge writers to do that, because they skip that part—the thinking part and the having-the-part—you know, the real estate-in-your-brain part. And I think this connects to the shower—shower thoughts, right? You're gardening or beekeeping, you're walking, you're thinking, you're writing proposals and throwing them out. You're doing all that, that, that's writing. That's the—that's writing in my mind.

KJ Dell'Antonia

And it's not... I mean the other thing we do say a lot is, you know, "Good writing comes last."

Jennie Nash

Yeah.

KJ Dell'Antonia

You've got to do the other stuff. So you can do it on vacation, or you could not do it on vacation. This—I don't think—we just—maybe I—this was my idea, and I think maybe I just needed the reassurance. I have a couple weeks coming up where I'm probably not going to do anything, and I just needed a reminder that that's cool. That's cool. It's all right. It's going to be okay. That's what I—if y'all could just pat me on the head and say "it's going to be okay."

Multiple Speakers

[Overlapping voices: “Mm-hmm,” “Sorry,” “Ohhh...”]

KJ Dell'Antonia

Six or ten times an hour, that might be about what I need.

Jess Lahey

Well and one of the other things that has been really cool this summer is I've been on a streak of really good books. And every one of those really good books that I've been reading has made me like, Oh, I could do this. Oh my gosh, I could do that. I could write like her. I could I could write this other thing. And it's, it's all that energy is good and it's all a good thing to sit on a beach and read a book, or sit in the woods and read a book. It's all great.

KJ Dell'Antonia

All right, everybody, go collect some energy. Hey, on that note, who's read something good lately?

Jennie Nash

I want to hear all these great books, Jess.

Jess Lahey

So I really have been on this roll. I've already talked about Atmosphere in an earlier podcast, the Taylor Jenkins Reid thing. But then I've been on this Tess Gerritsen jag, because we're—I'm interviewing Tess Gerritsen later this week. You guys will get to hear her later this summer. I am... Sarina and KJ, I believe, read the first of her new series that she has set in Maine and with a couple of retired CIA agents and spies in Maine. And then I enjoyed those so much that I went all the way back to the beginning—to her first book, The Surgeon, which I didn't even know was turned into this whole series called Rizzoli and Isles. It's a television show—I had no idea. And now I'm deep into Tess Gerritsen land. I'm still—I found out that there's going to be a movie of the book by the guy who wrote The Martian, Andy...

Sarina Bowen

Andy Weir

Jess Lahey

Andy Weir, thank you. And I was warned very specifically on social media not to watch the preview—the trailer—for the new movie that is going to be coming out with Ryan Gosling later on this summer, because it ruins the book. The book is called Hail Mary… Project Hail Mary. So I very quickly turned away from social media and said, Ooh, I better read the book really quickly before anyone ruins it for me, and I am enjoying the heck out of Project Hail Mary. So it's been really fun. Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

I am reading a book that KJ put into my hands. And the fun part is that I don't remember why she put it into my hands, you know. Like, why did I pick up this book? Like, it happens all the time. It's called All the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harman.

Jennie Nash

What a great title.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, like, I picked up this book, and my husband said, oh my God, what a great title. And so, yes, that's super cool. And it's very voice-y. And the—the flap copy has the—a premise that smacks of a thriller, but the voice isn't like all deep, dark thriller. And so I think maybe the contrast of those two things might be why KJ put it into my hands. But I am enjoying the fabulous writing, and I'm—I'm still at the beginning, but the way she introduces characters is really sharp. So even that alone is like a little master class on introducing characters.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Yeah, that was why I gave it to you, was that we'd been talking about, you know, the voice, and also because we'd been talking about, like, funny thrillers versus thriller-y thrillers. And this isn't funny, but it's super voice-y. It reminds me of the one you pressed into my hands, which maybe is a little funnier—Listen for the Lie.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, yeah.

Jennie Nash

Well, I'm reading something very different, which is not—not very beachy. I go to a yoga class that is taught by a middle grade English teacher, and she runs her yoga class sort of like English class, where she always starts with a poem and throughout the class, she refers back to the poem in a very embodied way that you're doing the yoga around. And then she reads the poem again at the end. It's—its spectacular. She's—she's so popular at our yoga studio that you have to, you know, fight your way in. But she read a poem by a woman named Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer—and that’s Rosemerry like Christmas Merry, so: Rosemerry. And the book is called The Unfolding. And I say it's very different from what you are all mentioning because this woman experienced the death of her young son and father in very close proximity, and her poems are ostensibly about grief, but they're just filled with joy and hope and delight. And, you know, it's kind of that thing you're talking about, Sarina—that it's—here's a book about tragedy and grief, but it's—there's something about the voice that just is—is fresh. And they're just—they're just stunning, just absolutely stunning. And I have gone and ordered all her books, of which there are—are many. So she's a new voice to me, and I just—I can't get enough of them. They're incredible.

KJ Dell'Antonia

Well, here I am going to go back to the fiction summary read-y thing. I am very late to The Thursday Murder Club party, but it is joy. It is so much fun—really your sort of classic Agatha Christie stuff, but way, way funnier and more entertaining, with a dash of elderly spies. So we're on that theme. And then I also want to mention, just because I liked it so much—and I'm not sure I want everyone to read it—What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. This could be your lit fic read of the summer. It's somewhere—but—but it's still a page turner. And I thought the premise was extremely great. Basically, it's: what if the Unabomber had also raised a young daughter with him in the woods on all of his theories, back when the Unabomber was living in the woods, and inadvertently involved her in his first kill before she got away? And now she's an adult looking back at what happened. And Janelle Brown is a Silicon Valley person. She's really steeped in this culture. She really knows this world. It's a really good book—plus super entertaining.

Jennie Nash

I love it.

KJ Dell'Antonia

That's it!

Jess Lahey

I love it when we have a lot of good stuff, because there have been a couple weeks this year where we were like, I was just let down this time around. But yay, I'm loving this.

KJ Dell'Antonia

All right, I think that's it for us this week, kids. Remember, if you support the podcast, you get bonus content every week right now, because we are killing it. You might get Jess's Soup to Nuts series, where she is coaching a fellow writer on creating a nonfiction proposal that also will work with her speaking career. You can join me and Jennie on a weekly basis as we flail our way through the beginnings of writing a couple of books. And of course, on a monthly basis, we've got the Booklab, where we look at the First Pages of novels submitted by listeners. And if you'd like to submit to the Booklab, that'd be great. Jess will put the link in the show notes.

Jess Lahey

Indeed, Jess will. And until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.

The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

When Sarina found Stephanie Pao on social media, she knew she had to interview her. Stephanie has the job we all want—she owns a bookstore on wheels. La Fleuria is L.A.’s first mobile romance bookstore, and we are here for it.

Tune in to hear our interview with Stephanie. We’re discussing how she got this idea, where she turned for advice, and how she figures out what to stock and where to park La Fleuria!

Show links include:

#YouAndYourBookstore episode with Mary Laura Philpott

La Fleuria book truck

Stephanie on Instagram

Stephanie’s Linktree

La Fleuria’s popup schedule

Thrown for a Loop, Sarina’s upcoming release (pub date 11/4/25)

TropeTruck, a book truck whose owner generously contributed knowledge

Ingram, the wholesale bookseller we discuss in some detail (because Jess needed to understand how this bookseller access to indie authors works!)

Books Stephanie recommends and loves to sell at La Fleuria:

Yes No Maybe by Jessica Sherry (La Fleuria’s #2 bestseller!)

Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid

All Rhodes Lead Here by Mariana Zapata

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a new series I have created just for supporters of the #AmWriting Podcast.

I met an aspiring author and speaker who has an idea for a book that just knocked me over. I said, please, please write that book. This is someone who had an idea that has a place in the market. It's timely. She's the perfect person to write it, and I asked her, I begged her, if I could please mentor her through this process publicly on the podcast.

So while we're not giving her full name and we're not giving the actual title of the book, because we don't want to hand those things away, I am coaching her through the entire process, from preparing her book proposal to querying an agent. I'm going through the whole thing with her. She knows nothing about the publishing industry, she knows very little about how one goes about writing a book—so essentially, this is as I mentioned before, from soup to nuts, From Authority to Author, and hopefully we'll get her there.

But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether after this book she ends up having a speaking career, this is about the process of preparing to do that. I hope you’ll join us.

This series is for supporters only, so if you are a free subscriber right now, consider upgrading. Remember, if you upgrade, you'll also get the ability to submit for our First Pages Booklab, and lots of other fun stuff that we put out just for supporters—So come join us. It's a lot of fun.

Transcript below!

EPISODE 457 - TRANSCRIPT

Jess Lahey

Hey, Jess here to talk to you about a new series I have created just for supporters of the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. I met an aspiring author and speaker who has an idea for a book that just knocked me over. I said, please, please write that book. This is someone who had an idea that it has a place in the market. It's timely. She's the perfect person to write it, and I asked her—I begged her—if I could please mentor her through this process publicly on the podcast. So, while we're not giving her full name and we're not giving the actual title of the book, because we don't want to hand those things away, I am coaching her through the entire process—from preparing her book proposal to querying an agent. I'm going through the whole thing with her. She knows nothing about the publishing industry. She knows very little about how, you know, one goes about writing a book. And so she essentially—this is, as I mentioned before from soup to nuts, From Authority to Author, and hopefully we'll get her there. But really, whether or not this book ends up selling, whether this book—she ends up having a speaking career—this is about the process of preparing to do that. How do you write a book? How do you prepare to become a speaker on the back of that book? So I hope you join us. This is a series for supporters only. So if you are a free supporter, or if you're a free subscriber right now, consider upgrading. Remember, if you upgrade, you'll also get access to the ability to submit for our First Pages Book Lab and lots of other fun stuff that we put out just for supporters. So come join us. It's a lot of fun.

Multiple Speakers:

Is it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now one, two, three.

Jess Lahey

Welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting podcast. This is the podcast about, oh, writing all the things—the short things, the long things, the nonfiction, the fiction, the poetry, the book proposals, the agent queries—all the things. In reality, though, this podcast is about two things. It is about getting the work done, and flattening the learning curve for other writers. I'm Jess Lahey. I am co-hosting today. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my journalism at The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic.

Sarina Bowen

And I'm Sarina Bowen. I am the author of many romance novels. My next one is called Thrown for a Loop and it's coming from Forever in November, and I could not be more excited. And it is in the vein of romance, publishing, and readership that I have invited a guest to talk to us today because she has done something so outrageously cool that I needed to hear more in person. So please welcome Stephanie Pao, who has started Los Angeles' first romance book truck. She’s become a bookseller, and I am here to hear all about it. Welcome, Stephanie.

Stephanie Pao

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Sarina Bowen

My pleasure. If you wouldn't mind, I would love to hear—how did this happen? Like, how did you decide that the world needed a book truck? Because that is just a cool idea and I never thought of it. And like, so how did you decide to actually make it a thing? And what did you do?

Stephanie Pao

Yes, okay. The idea actually came to me—I lived by the beach, so I was walking by the beach and I saw a vintage Volkswagen truck for sale, and I just couldn't get it out of my mind. It isn't the truck that I have now, but I kept thinking, what could I do with it? And I've always loved books—romance in particular—and I've been looking for something that I could do that kind of took my previous experience, which is marketing, but melded it with something I really enjoyed. And I just thought maybe I could start a book truck. And I started to do research and I saw that there are many book trucks across the country. At the time, I think maybe there was just one or two romance ones and I was lucky enough to be able to speak with someone who had a romance book bus called Trope. She has a bookshop now and she really gave me a lot of confidence that I could probably do this too. I ended up taking a course on bookselling and started looking for a truck. The truck I ended up finding was actually the first truck I found on Facebook Marketplace. The man who was selling it had completely restored it. And he was so excited that I wanted to do this book shop in a truck idea, that he actually helped me and designed all the shelves, and he built it, and he didn't charge me for it.

Sarina Bowen

Oh my goodness!Stephanie Pao

Yeah. So it felt very serendipitous and almost meant to be. And now it's been like two months and I'm having so much fun.

Sarina Bowen

Wow. Wow. Oh my goodness. I feel like you should be teaching a class on how to live, right? You're like, "I'm good at this thing, but I'm really interested in this other thing, and I'm going to stick them together and it's going to be great."

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I feel like it was a little bit of like manifesting, I guess.

Sarina Bowen

Well, wow, that’s so great. So how many books does your truck hold at once? Like, what is the size of your store?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, so it holds about 350 books, and I've taken to also stacking books on top to display my favorite books. So I think it might hold almost 400.

Sarina Bowen

Okay. And so of course, when we think about the bookstores that we grew up going to—you know, there are these giant cavernous Barnes & Nobles, there are smaller independent bookstores—and they’re all numbering in the thousands. But by specializing in a category that you really love, like suddenly 400 is you know, it’s a workable amount for what romance readers might be looking for on any given day. So, but still, there's a lot of good books in the world. How do you choose?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I do a mix of like books that I've read and loved. I have been a voracious reader—I've read my whole life—but I've been a voracious reader for a couple of years. I also do a lot of books that I get recommendations from friends or that I just see are very popular online. So I think people will want to find those, but I think it is hard. I'm still figuring out the right balance of what types of romance to carry.

Sarina Bowen

Right. Right. Because we all have our favorite you know, parts of the genre and they might not be the ones that are killing it.

Jess Lahey

But the thing that I'm really excited to hear about is the thing that I love so much about independent booksellers. I get a sense for the bookseller when I go to the bookstore. Like, there are certain bookstores I rave about not necessarily because they're huge, not necessarily because they're beautiful—but because I can tell that when the bookseller recommends something to me; I know who that person is. Or I know the sense of the curation at the store. And that excites me because I feel like I'm in capable hands. So I'm really curious—especially to hear about your curation, and how you decide what you're going to carry—and then I'm also, and I know Sarina is going to ask this question, but in my head, I'm like, how do you find your readers? That's the part I'm so excited to hear about. Like, how do you know where to go? How do the people find you? Because I think that's the magic—is connecting the people with the books. And that’s what I feel like a really great curation does. It says, "If you like this, try this," or, "Oh, you're new to this genre? Let me tell you where you should start with this genre." That’s what’s magic to me about independent booksellers, and the idea of you getting to do it in a very concentrated way with a particular genre is just—it makes me so happy. I'm just so happy you're out there doing this, Stephanie.

Stephanie Pao

Thank you.

Sarina Bowen

So one time I was reading the listing of a literary agent, I think, and somebody had said, "What do you like about this job?" And the agent said, "I get to invest in my own taste." And I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at her job—but also of your job as well. And before we get to “How do you find the readers?”—because that is a really important chapter of this conversation—I just, from the listener standpoint: are you constantly deluged by authors who are like, “Pick me, pick me”? Like, what would you tell an author who is trying to navigate the bookselling world? What have you learned about your end of being a bookseller that an author might need to hear?

Stephanie Pao

Yes. Okay. So first I want to say, like the curation part—My like number two best seller is actually an indie author's book who I love, and I can see from the book selling, like software that I use, that I'm the only bookstore of the 200 plus bookstores that carry her book, and it's the second best seller for me. Like. I've sold over 30 copies in like two months. So I think it really is like the passion of the bookseller, and I have had quite a few authors reach out to me, and they'll come to events. And I feel like it's, I don't have a good process on how I'm vetting all the authors, but I think it's like, if we make a personal connection, I will try to go out of my way to like read their book, because we've connected in some way, and I love reading, and I just feel like because we've like, either met in person or we've exchanged nice messages on social media, it does make me want to read someone's book more, because I have that personal connection, which is probably how people feel when they go shop at an indie books, or they have the personal connection with, like, a bookseller. So I think that's very similar. Um, I had people like, bring me their books, which does make it easier for me to, like, already have it ready. I don't have to look it up to read it or remember to look it up as well, but I know that, like, probably has a cost to it as well. But I had someone just bring me an F1 romance book yesterday at one of my pop ups, and I've been on an f1 kick. I don't know if she noticed that from my personal social but, like, I am very intrigued already, and now I have it

Sarina Bowen

That’s so lovely.

Jess Lahey

For the listeners out there who are interested in this very specific topic, in our show notes I’m going to link to an episode we did with Mary Laura Philpott, who used to be at Parnassus, about making connections with booksellers. Because there are things you can do to go out of your way—before your book comes out, or when your book is coming out—to say, “Hey, I have this book coming out, would you be interested at all in getting a copy?” So it’s something that can happen that authors can work on. And I’m going to definitely drop the link to that episode in the show notes.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah. I had this earlier this year. I was noticing—I started keeping track of how many romance bookstores are in the world. And now I have a list of 60, more than 60. And for a little while, when one just sort of popped up in my social, I was writing an email—because authors get a lot of publisher copies, you know, and sometimes after the launch of the book we end up with a box of like 15 copies still sitting here—and I was sending an email like, “Congratulations on your new store! That’s amazing. Can I send you a signed author copy? Because I just have them here. It’s a gift.” And the uptake of that is, you know, almost 100%. But I don’t ever want to presume that a bookseller wants a copy, you know, unless I check first, because that just seems cheesy. You know, it's, it's, it's hard for authors to know, like, how to be a good partner and not irritating. And anyway, I just thought, you know what your thoughts about that are?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like, I am a new store and, like, a single-person business. So anyone that reaches out to me, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what do you mean? How do you know about me? Why would you want to send me something?” So I'm sure, like, the like, weariness goes both ways, where we are, like, we're also—a lot of people are, like women—or maybe like, not used to promoting themselves more. So I think, like, just shoot your shot. I have an event coming up at like, a big, like, kind of mall, and they said they don't really do things like that with partners like this, but they were impressed that I shot my shot. So I have like, a summer series with them, and I think it's the same for, like, promoting your own book.

Sarina Bowen

Yeah, I guess this whole conversation is an exercise in trying.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, like the worst that could happen is, I think probably they would maybe say no or not respond to your request—which I do feel like I am guilty of that, because I get a lot and I don't know how to best, like, manage the flow of people saying that they want to send books. But that isn't because I don't want to reply. It's more like, I don't have a good system.

Sarina Bowen

It's hard. So I definitely want to hear how you figure out where to go. Like, where does the truck go? How do you know who to ask? Like, is that a lot of asking and hoping for the, for the best as well. Like, how does it come together?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, that has been a trial and error process. I think I started off applying to more markets, because they're looking for vendors anyways. But those usually have costs. And I found a few markets that I really enjoy going to, so I go to them monthly now. And…

Sarina Bowen

What kind of markets, can I ask?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, they're like, one is like a night market. They do it like, a couple times a month in a city of LA called Lakewood, and there's like food, there's usually, like a theme, so like, there was an AAPI night, or they had— I don't know if you know those, like toys called Labubu — but the last event I did was a Labubu themed one. And then I do another market that is in Culver City, and it is similar—like, there's food and drinks and then there's, like, people selling different like, a lot of artisan-made things,

Sarina Bowen

Okay.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, um, and then I reach out to local businesses as well. And I found, like, right away, I reached out to so many, and I didn't hear back from that many, because I was just starting out. I didn't have that many followers at the time. But the people who I found, and I did pop up set, they were so kind, and they let me dictate, like a day where I come back monthly, so I just have like places that I will go monthly, which makes it a lot easier to, like, have it like a set schedule, and then I just try to test new places and add on.

Sarina Bowen

Like, what kind of business? What? What makes a good what's a good sort of connection?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, well, so the first place that said yes to me was another women-owned business. And I do feel like they are, like, more inclined to, like; take a chance on another woman-owned business. So she actually has a flower shop, and she does like high tea on the days that I go. So she has people going there for like, high tea— but it's on a very visible Street. It's on the Pacific Coast Highway, so I think it's—I'm not sure it's benefiting her in any way, because I'm not sure my customers are going to buy flowers, um, but she has a space for me to pop up, and it doesn't like detract from her business, and it adds something fun to her guests. And I also go to coffee shops and breweries, and I do want to start reaching out to restaurants as well.

Jess Lahey

I'm actually looking at her pop-up schedule on her site right now, and there's also—I wouldn't have even occurred to me—but these silent readings that I see every once in a while on social media that I'm like, "Oh, if I lived in a city, I would be going to those all the time," where people just get together to read together. I've also seen them—people getting together just to write together—and those? That's brilliant. Showing up for something like that is such a wonderful idea, and your pop-up schedule looks fantastic. I'll definitely be dropping that into the show notes as well.

Sarina Bowen

Well, I just want to push back on the idea that the flower shop isn't getting anything out of you stopping there, because, like—so she runs a flower shop. I'm just certain she has a tiny core number of people who come every week and get fresh flowers because, you know, money is no object, and why not.But then there are other people who are on her list, maybe, who are only there when it's somebody's birthday three times a year. But if you're coming on a certain day, and she can tell her following, you know, that, "Oh, stop by on Tuesday because La Fleuria is going to be here, and it's, you know, the romance book truck, and you definitely want to check it out," it gives her a timely thing she can tell the people that do like flowers. And, you know, she's going to maybe have more foot traffic on that day than she otherwise might not have had.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I think it’s more maybe imposter syndrome, because she has like 800,000 followers.

Sarina Bowen

Wow!

Stephanie Pao

So I’m like drop in your bucket.

Sarina Bowen

Wow. Well, maybe we should all be in the flower business.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah.

Jess Lahey

Well, what did you have to sort of overcome with your own resistance in order to try this new thing? Because when writers have this same problem, we have an idea. It's a little glimmer, a sparkle, of an idea. It's so appealing in our minds. But, like, the commitment to actually, like, set aside six months of your life and write an entire book because you had this glimmer of an idea is a process, and that is why there aren't as many people who write complete books as you have ideas for them. So how did you convince yourself that, um, that this risky thing was—was something you ought to commit to? And how did you make that decision?

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, I think I’m still convincing myself that...

Jess Lahey

Okay, fair, fair.

Stephanie Pao

Um, I think it's actually really—it's really hard, because I think we're really programmed, or at least I was, on, like, this typical metric of success, which is, like: go to college, get a job, keep climbing the corporate ladder. And so I just kind of thought I would be doing that my whole life. But I never once thought, like, does that make me happy? Like, I was in a marketing job, and I was like—I climbed up to, like, VP, but I didn't enjoy it at all. And I just thought that's what we were supposed to do. So I think for me, I have been freelancing for three years because I got really burnt out, and I've just slowly come to terms with, like, maybe what I build for myself, or what I want for my life, is different than what all my friends have. Because I still talk to my friends that I've had for a long time, and I don't think they understand what I'm doing. And I feel like you will get a lot of resistance from people that you know, because they just want you to do the thing that feels safe to them, which is not venturing and doing something completely unknown. So I think it's, like, being really comfortable with the idea yourself and that not everyone's going to get it—but that's okay, because the people who do will, like, really support you. And then, of course, like, I'm not going to sugarcoat it—it is like a big financial risk. I think if you're setting aside time to write and not doing, like, other work, like—it is a risk either way. So I am lucky enough to have support, and I think that's, like, really important to share; that, like, my parents supported me so that I could take this on. And I—I started taking less and less clients from my, like, freelancing work to prepare to do this. And, like, I am still not, like, super profitable, but I know that I can, like, push back into freelancing if I really need to. So I think it's—I'm comfortable knowing that there are other means of, like, income if I really need it. But I really want to give myself time to see where this goes.

Sarina Bowen

Right, I love that. So, of course, you knew that freelancing was—that you had some connections there, which helps, so you have, like, a little bit of a cushion for yourself, which is amazing. You—you mentioned earlier that you took a course in bookselling, and I just wonder how you found that, and how—how you felt. Was it information that you already had? Did it just give you confidence? Or did you really learn a lot from that course?

Stephanie Pao

Well, I found it through the American Booksellers Association. It was, like, a linked course that they had on, like, how to get started with opening your own bookstore. And I did learn a lot. I think at the time, I was really debating whether I should do a bookstore or do something more mobile. And that course actually made me feel like—when we did all the calculations—the rent is so much in LA that it just seemed, like, much, much too risky to do a store first. Like, maybe building up a customer base before investing in a shop. So I think I did learn a lot. I also—there's—I get a lot of the same questions from people who want to start something similar. And I got all of that information through this course. Like, a lot of people ask me where you buy books from, and things that have to do with bookselling that aren't very well known. And I think the course provides that information.

Jess Lahey

Nice. Do you do you use Ingram [Ingram Content Group], and so you have like a special account as a bookseller?

Stephanie Pao

Yes. And I just started opening, like, accounts with the publishers, because I wasn't sure how much I was going to order, and you have to meet minimums to order through the publishers. I was like, I don't know how quickly my inventory is going to go, but now I think it will be more worth it, because you get a better, like, discount through the publishers.

Jess Lahey

As someone who's not involved in the bookselling community or the independent publishing community—just for my knowledge—one of the things that I, you know, often lament is if I like an author that is an independent bookseller and their print books are hard to come by. How do you—is Ingram someone who helps you bridge that? Does Ingram do this, like, print on demand? Sorry, there—my husband's home. Could you explain how this works a little bit to me?

Stephanie Pao

So I also—well, I'm not 100% sure—but yes, Ingram does the print-on-demand books, and they have books from a lot of independent authors on there. I have a friend who is an indie author, and she said that she first listed her book on Amazon, but then the bookstores couldn't buy it, so she had to do something to get it on Ingram. So I'm not sure how that works, but I've also bought directly from a few authors, like the author I mentioned, who is, like, my second best seller. I buy directly from her, and I'm not sure where she gets her copies, but it is a much better deal than through Ingram.

Jess Lahey

Yeah. So, Ingram—their first and primary business was as a wholesaler for traditionally published books. So, you know, in the ’90s, when I briefly worked at Random House, Ingram was—you know, when a new book is published, Ingram buys a certain amount of them, and Baker and Taylor buy a certain amount of them, and they stand as a middleman who is ready to wholesale those books to booksellers. And then, of course, they created their print-on-demand service so that, probably, when you log into Ingram, you can see indie titles and traditional titles sort of all together in their offered database. But I did learn something recently about indies and Ingram that was a real eye-opener for me, which is that an author who opens an IngramSpark account and uploads their files there—like, like an indie author that you buy from probably does—has to set a discount amount. And unfortunately, the number that the bookseller gets is not the same as what the author sets. So the author can set a discount to retail in a band between, I don’t know, 40 and 60 or something like that. But, um, in order for a bookseller to get their maximum discount, I have to put 53% discount or greater—like 53 or 55—and if I put 52 instead, then the bookseller gets, often, a very bad discount that is not 52%; it’s more like 30%. So there’s this magic that happens at the 53% author discount that allows you and your colleagues to get the max discount in your Ingram account. And it took me only, like, eight years to learn this magic.

Jess Lahey

So Stephanie, this is why we keep Sarina around, because she knows how this stuff works.

Stephanie Pao

I figured it was there was something, because the range in discounts I see from indie offers is so wide from like 20 to 40% and at 20% it's almost not even worth it to carry.

Sarina Bowen

Right. I bet it isn’t.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah.

Sarina Bowen

So you if somebody Well, but, and that's where the confusion comes in, because here's an author, and she's putting 45% in that box, and then you're seeing it at 20 and going, this isn't worth it. And of course, like both of you, could be frustrated because…

Jess Lahey

Exactly!

Sarina Bowen

Because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So um, but I have learned that 53 is the magic number, and that if an author puts 53 and then you will get your max discount. And it took me way, way too long to understand this.

Jess Lahey

This is like… this is, this is—these little random things that come up occasionally—are, you know, why I talk about flattening the learning curve for other authors or booksellers or whomever that listen to this podcast. Because how on earth would you know that? And then you're frustrated because you can't carry a book, because you can't make money on it. The author's incredibly frustrated because you can't—won't—carry the book, and then that piece of information never gets across. So thank you for diving into that dorky detail for me, because, again, I think that's such an important piece of information that no one would ever know unless someone somewhere is discussing it. So thank you.

Sarina Bowen

Um…you're welcome. It's really just inside baseball—like picky junk that takes up my week. But here we are.

Jess Lahey

I know. But the people who listen to this podcast—in particular, the people who are fans of Sarina Bowen—are often people who are also writing within the indie space. And so how, you know—how are they going to find this stuff out?

Sarina Bowen

Well okay.

Jess Lahey

Okay.

Sarina Bowen

Even if it's not as you know, as joyful as the following your dreams and the flower shop stuff, but we're here to do all of it.

Jess Lahey

Well… But the big—this is also a big part of it, because there are also going to be people out there who are like, Oh, I don't want to open a brick-and-mortar store, but Oh, a truck? I mean, like, for me, that's the entry point. That's very, very exciting to me. So, the other reason I wanted to be on this podcast today is because I want to understand how that works, and is it a way into something that would really feed your soul and your heart—and not to mention your book… sell—your, your bookshelves.

Sarina Bowen

Of course. So, Stephanie, before we go, I would love—since you're the expert here—I would love for you to recommend a couple romances that you're excited about right now. And if you wouldn't mind, I would be super thrilled to hear what your number two bestseller is—that you, that you are her best bookseller.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah, okay. It's Yes No Maybe by Jessica Sherry, and it is a story of a woman who has, um, scars on her face from, like, an accident from when she was younger. And she's, like, always felt not worthy of, like, all the good things in life, and she's settling. And she moves next door to a romance writer who has writer's block, and she becomes basically his muse. And it's, like, very sweet but very emotional. Some other books I love—I recently finished Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid, and I've never cried so hard in a book. And it's, like, also such a beautiful love story. I, like, have chills thinking about it.

Sarina Bowen

Wow.

Stephanie Pao

Yeah. And then, just like a favorite that I always recommend is All Rhodes Lead Here by Mariana Zapata. I'm in my late 30s, so I feel like I love when characters are in their 30s and still figuring things out, and I love a slow burn romance.

Sarina Bowen

All right. Thank you so much. I, um—I love those choices. Um, we've all walked into bookstores and seen, like, the same five books on the front table that we've seen in every other bookstore we've walked into that month. And it's really lovely to hear some different recommendations from you, and we really appreciate it. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today to talk about this super fun project that—that Jess and I are like, Ooh, we could just quit everything and get a...

Jess Lahey

Yeah. Well, no. The other thing is, I'm like, Okay, when's my next speaking engagement in Los Angeles, and can I make it coincide with one of your pop-up dates so that I could come by?

Stephanie Pao

I will drive the truck to you.

Jess Lahey

That… actually, we'll figure it out. Because I just, I'm dying to see your truck, dying to see how it works. I just, I'm loving the selections. And I'm just really happy for more than anything else, I'm really happy for someone who has found a way to turn something they love into a business that can work. So I'm just so happy for you.

Stephanie Pao

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.

Sarina Bowen

It was entirely our pleasure. And thank you listeners for tuning in once again to the am writing podcast, and until next week, keep your heads in the game and your butt's in the chair.

Jess Lahey

The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.