#AmWriting

In this episode of #amwriting, Jennie continues this series of “Write Big” episodes in which she vulnerably shares her own process of turning the Write Big concepts into a book, thanking listeners and inviting them to become paid subscribers. In this tough installment, recorded after a Zoom call with her agent while sick, she explains they are ending submission after sending the proposal to 30 publishers; feedback was largely positive, but publishers felt the book would be hard to break out without a large platform, and there was nothing actionable to change.

Jennie feels sad about losing the chance for bookstore placement via a traditional deal, but emphasizes she does not feel rejected and believes strongly in the finished manuscript and her marketing plans. She plans to move forward independently, explore formats and special editions, and frames the moment as what “writing big” means: taking ownership, not playing small, and writing like it matters.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, it’s Jennie, and I’m here to introduce a series of episodes that I’m going to be doing. But before I do that, I just want to thank you for being a listener. I inherited this podcast from KJ, Jess, and Serena back in December, and didn’t really know how it was going to work with just me at the helm or what I was going to do to make it valuable to writers.

And I’ve been finding my way, and I’ve just been so grateful that you’re continuing to listen. I appreciate it so much. I have a lot of really cool things planned coming up, so I hope you’ll keep listening, and I also hope that if you’re getting something from it, that you consider becoming a paid subscriber.

That helps support me and the producer and assistants who help me put this together, and we would appreciate your support so much. Okay. So the reason that I wanted to introduce this upcoming series is that it’s a series of Write Big episodes that are about me and the project that I’m working on, and it feels a little vulnerable to be sharing in this way.

I’ve had some mentors and advisors [00:01:00] suggest that maybe I shouldn’t do this because I’m here on the #amwriting podcast as an authority. I’m the book coach who coaches the book coaches and who has coached a lot of writers, and I come at you from that place of expertise. But in these next episodes, I’m coming at you as a writer my own self, and I’m coming with some pretty raw material.

I debated whether or not I should share it at all, but I decided to go ahead. I think it’s the honest way to show that I’m here working on the Write Big issues right alongside you because every writer is. These are not just theoretical ideas. They’re ideas that we all have to wrestle with. It doesn’t matter that I’ve published 12 books or that I’ve coached hundreds of writers and thousands of book coaches.

What matters is that I want the book I’m writing to be great, and I want it to make an impact, and I want it to be authentically me, and that’s what writing big is all about. So the [00:02:00] project that you’re going to hear me talk about is trying to turn the Write Big concepts into a Write Big book. And this episode that you’re gonna hear first is a pretty tough one.

I want you to know that it all turns out just fine. I’m fine, and I’ll be sharing the journey of my bringing the Write Big book into the world with all of you as we go with some special opportunities to be inside the process with me and to help me make the book as good as it could be. This will all just be a small part of what I have planned for the #amwriting podcast, but I wanted to give you this context before you listen today, just so you know what this episode is all about and the next few ones that follow.

Okay, now let’s get to it.

This is a Write Big session where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today, I have a bad cold, as you can hear, but I just got off the Zoom with my agent, and I wanted to [00:03:00] capture this moment for all of you because I think it’s really important to capture it.

So even though it was a sad call and I feel bad, I wanted to record this right now. And, um, it was sad because we decided that our submission efforts are over and they didn’t work. My agent submitted to 30 publishers, and the overall feedback was amazing, as I shared in some earlier episodes. It was just incredible how many people know me, know my work how well the proposal landed with people, how seriously they considered it.

My agent did something that I’ve actually never seen before, which is that she had a spreadsheet, a Google spreadsheet, and she would share the feedback in the spreadsheet as it came in. So I have all of the feedback in this spreadsheet. I’m looking [00:04:00] at it right now. And so what my agent and I decided is that there was really nothing that we could do.

There was nothing that we could control. Nobody was saying, “Go out and get a whole bunch of new followers and come back to us.” Nobody was saying anything about a different content or concept. There was just a general feeling that it would be hard to break this book out. I’m not famous, and I don’t have a big following, and I can’t get that.

I can’t snap my fingers and, and make that a thing. There are a lot of books in this category from people that do have that. And so I just am at that disadvantage, and there’s, there’s nothing that we could do. So we decided that’s the end of the road. So what I wanted to capture, the reason I wanted to record this was, this is a book called [00:05:00] Write Big.

And writing big in my mind- is not about going for it. That’s not what it’s about. It might be, and when you write big, you might do that, and what I was doing in trying to get a traditional deal for this book was going for it, and I’m sad I didn’t get it. That’s the sadness. I’m sad I didn’t get it. I really wanted this book to be in bookstores.

I feel like it’s a book that would do really well in bookstores, and should be in bookstores. That was my primary goal for getting a traditional deal, because I’ve self-published the Blueprint books, and they sell very well, and they do very well. And the one publisher that we spoke to commented upon that, actually said, “You do so well.

What can we... What could we do that’s different from what you’re already doing?” So that is an [00:06:00] interesting part of the conversation. But I want it to be in bookstores, and it’s hard to be in bookstores, really nearly impossible with a book like this from self-publishing. So the sadness is that I won’t have that.

And but underneath all of that sadness and the disappointment that it didn’t work is a belief in what I’m doing. I have a finished manuscript. I have it out with two beta readers, and I’ll be talking about why I picked those two and what that process was and how the feedback from them has gone and what I’m doing with that feedback in later episodes.

But I know that this material is good. I know that it’s useful. I’m excited about this material. My proposal had some killer marketing plan in it that I’m really excited to pursue without a [00:07:00] publishing partner, a traditional publishing partner, and some of the things that I wanna pursue will be easier without a publishing partner because I’ll have control over the pricing and special offers and giveaways and things like that.

But I... the, this book is not... this, this news is not the end of this book by any stretch of the imagination. It’s just the end of this piece of what I wanted, and that’s the core belief, is that this, this idea is solid and sound, and I’m excited about it, and I wanna bring it into the world, and actually nothing is gonna stop me from doing that, and I feel a fierce, m- what is it?

Desire to do that. So I don’t feel like this is a setback. I don’t feel like it’s a referendum on what I wrote. [00:08:00] I don’t feel like it’s personal I don’t feel rejected. Again, I just feel sad because I had a, a dream or a vision of that, of that bookstore thing. But, you know, what does that represent? It...

What it means is that this book would get into writers’ hands, and it would get into writers’ hands in that way of, you know, someone wanders into a bookstore and they’re noodling around, and they are come upon that writer book reference shelf in which actually often several of my clients’ books sit. And which is kind of ironic.

One of, one of the re- uh, rejection letters actually referenced that they already have a book similar-ish to mine which is somebody that I, that I helped. So, and one of my coaches helped. So, yeah, it’s a little bitter- [00:09:00] bittersweet part of that there, for sure. But, you know, the ultimate goal is that writers get this, and writers use this, and writers make something from the content in this book, and that can happen whether they encounter that book in the bookstore or not.

So that is what is gonna happen. I will pursue this and move forward with this on my own. And, It, yeah, it feels, I’m just- I’m sort of closing my eyes and sitting here and trying to feel how I feel. I mean, I knew, I knew what was happening on this call. It wasn’t a surprise to me. It was, you know, we agreed to add the submission and to have this conversation today.

So I wasn’t surprised by the news. But, you know, having the call is, is final and the agent that I chose for this project is lovely and loves my work and did it- did all she could do. Um, I have no, I have no, um, [00:10:00] feelings or regrets about her role in this. And yeah, I feel a little, uh... What do I feel?

It’s, uh, it’s hard to know what you feel. Um, I feel a little, I guess vulnerable, uh, sharing, sharing this in what, um, will be a podcast, but I don’t know. I just, I’m out here trying to teach and to lead and to coach, and I’ve coached so many writers through this moment in different ways and different kinds of books over the years, and it’s part of the process.

I- I’ve been in the seat of helping someone through it many, many times and it it will be okay. I know it will be okay. And, um, we’re so lucky that we live in a time when the publishing decision is not the final decision. I have so much control and agency and choice, and maybe this is w- actually gonna be the best [00:11:00] possible for- thing for this book.

And I’m starting to think about, oh, maybe I’ll do a, a special kind of cover or a special hardback edition in addition to paper and e-book and audio. There’s so many things that I could do and I’m excited to, to do it. So I will take a, a beat and mourn, mourn the thing that I didn’t get that I wanted and move on.

And that is what I think writing big is all about. Again, it’s not going for it and, getting the big prize and that kind of energy. It’s, you know what? how can you stop playing small and write like it matters? How can you go big in terms of your ownership of this and taking responsibility of this and doing what you can to bring it to life?

And that’s always in our control. So that’s what I’m [00:12:00] gonna do, and I wanted to share that with you in the moment. So until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.

In a bonus #amwriting podcast episode, host Jennie Nash talks with academic writing coach Kathy Mazak of Scholar’s Voice (and host of Academic Writing Amplified) about how writers keep going after completing a blueprint and finish what they start. Mazak explains her mission-based work helping academics—especially women and non-binary scholars—publish their research by aligning time management and writing with an academic mission statement. She argues that big blocks of time are unrealistic and that one to two hours once or twice a week can be enough if protected and supported by project management systems.

They discuss common obstacles like not honoring writing time, fear of disappointing oneself, and harsh peer review, and emphasize mindset work as at least half the solution. Mazak describes managing multiple projects by focusing on a top three, letting others “sleep,” and “killing” stalled “zombie projects,” plus recognizing stage transitions and solving the right problem at the right level. She shares details on her 12-week Navigate program (scholarsvoice.org/navigate) and why members stay for years.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Learn more at http://scholarsvoice.org/.

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey everyone, it’s Jennie, and I’m here with a bonus episode of the podcast because a lot of our community has been working on their blueprints this summer to begin a new project, find momentum for one that’s gotten derailed, or to work on a revision.

And obviously stopping to think before you write is critical, but then the question is, what next? And how, how do we keep going? How do we finish what we started? And I invited my friend Kathy Mazak to join me today to have a conversation about this and to get her insights on this topic. Kathy, we’re in a business mastermind together.

That’s how we met, [00:01:00] and we, um, immediately connected because Kathy runs a company called Scholar’s Voice, which you can find at scholarsvoice.com. She has an incredible strategic mind, and her work focuses on helping tenured professors get their research and writing out of the endless backlog and actually submitted and published.

So it’s a different kind of writing than we normally talk about on the podcast, but I know we have a lot of a- academics in our audience, um, who are trying to write nonfiction or fiction or memoir, but also probably trying to publish the papers that are sitting on their desk. And Kathy helps so many people do that work and do it well, and she has really Amazing systems for doing that.

And so she’s gonna talk a little bit about her program and what she offers at the end, um, or maybe at the beginning too. But, [00:02:00] um, welcome Cathy.

Cathy: Yay. Thank you so much for having me. So I know that we met in the business mastermind, but I’ve been following you for many years before that, and been listening to this podcast, and been subscribed to this podcast for, like, at least since 2019 when I started to, like, look at other writing podcasts.

Jennie: Yeah.

Cathy: And so it is ... It actually has been, like, a dream of mine to be on this podcast, so it’s, like, so- Look at us ... great that we’re doing this here today. Yes.

Jennie: I completely forgot to say that you have a podcast as well. What is, what is the name of that?

Cathy: Yeah. The podcast is called Academic Writing Amplified.

It has, like, we’re headed towards 350 episodes all about, like, getting your, uh, academic papers out there in the world when you’re a busy professor. So yeah.

Jennie: One of the things that I most like about your business is the way you describe it as it’s really mission based. Yeah. It’s, it’s [00:03:00] really about helping academics take control of the narrative.

Yeah. Right? Do you- Yeah ... do, will you tell us about that, ‘cause I love that.

Cathy: Yeah. So for me, right, like, as a writing coach, so I was a full professor, like I went through, I have a PhD. I, I, I got my tenure track job. I went all the way through all the ranks, um, before I left and started this, uh, academic adjacent business.

But I do it because, like, my big, like, mission is that the more, especially women and non-binary academics who get their papers out in the world, like, the more those voices are changing fields, and influencing research, and influencing thinking. And I just think, like, that is just so important. That’s why the business is called Scholar’s Voice, ‘cause it’s about getting more diverse, typically marginalized voices out in these research spaces.

Um, so [00:04:00] to me that’s my mission, and when I have ... You know, when, when scholars come and do my program they write an academic mission statement, and really their whole time management, um, and writing project management, and sustainable writing practice is designed to, like, support that academic mission. So it’s a very mission based, uh, business for me.

But it’s also, like, a, like my clients, like w- who take my programs are also, like, putting their academic missions, like, right at the center of their work. Which also puts writing at the center. Because to me, like, the writing is absolutely, is, is, like, the path to creating this better career, this focus on writing.

Jennie: Well, and an academic has courses to teach and committees to go to, meetings to go to, and, you know, so many other demands on their time. And somebody trying to write a book has- Yep ... not [00:05:00] exactly those things, but probably a day job, and kids, and, you know, aging parents they have to care for, and the dog, and the car, and, you know, it’s, it’s writing in, in the real world.

Mm-hmm. And the way you set your program up is you’ve honed this over so many years, i- and it’s designed to, to help people actually get the work done. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about how you structure that program? ‘Cause I think it’ll be instructive to helping folks. Like, okay, here, you’ve finished your blueprint, now what?

So- Yeah ... how do you, how do you get people to do it?

Cathy: Yeah, yeah. So the first part is that I think that many people, when they think about writers, right, like if they just imagine themselves as a writer, they think that the ideal is, oh, I have like eight hours a day to dedicate to writing, or all my life, or whatever, you know, dreamy scenario we have in our minds.

And I [00:06:00] think, like, for academics, i- the, the... it’s like, oh, I need to be on a sabbatical, or I need to not be teaching. I need to... I cannot be doing any other thing. Um, or I can be doing other things, but I need like these big blocks of time to write. And the problem is, like you’re saying, like writing in real life, like that just doesn’t happen.

And then when it might happen for academics is over the holiday breaks, like the semester breaks or the summer, but that also isn’t true because you’re also like, you know, being a mom and, and th- you know, doing things with your family, and managing your house, and maybe your aging parents, and whatever else.

Like there’s never a time where there’s like nothing going on. So we have to stop thinking that that’s the ideal and rather think, like what I tell my people, and they- Fight me on this, but at the beginning. But I tell them, actually one to two hours once or twice a [00:07:00] week is enough.

Jennie: Ah. And

Outro: they’ll be like, “No,

Cathy: no,

Outro: no,

Cathy: I

Outro: need-” Say that again.

Cathy: Yeah, no. Say that again. One to two hours once or twice a week is enough, ‘cause remember, like, the low end of that means one hour a week, and the high end of that is four hours a week. And so a lot of times people come in and, and I’m, you know, for your, for the audience here, like, think about are you doing one hour a week consistently?

Are you doing two hours a week consistently? If you’re not, then let’s just, like, back up and go there instead of thinking like, “Oh no, I need these big blocks of time that I can never actually get and hold.” ‘Cause that’s the other thing, it’s so hard to hold a big block. Um, like a four-hour block is hard to o- to hold.

Uh, and also

Outro: hard- Oh my gosh, four hours? ... to maintain your energy through.

Cathy: No, no, people- What? No ... people have

Outro: all kinds of ideas.

Cathy: And I’m like, and, and the other thing too I think is related to this idea, like for my people, right, that the work day is, like, this eight-hour day. [00:08:00] Like, but you can’t ... I’m thinking you’re not knowledge work for eight hours a day.

Like, your brain can’t do that, you know? So we really have to start, just, like, dial it back and start with, like, can I get consistency? Consistency doesn’t have to mean every day. Could I get consistent with one or two hours once or twice, or twice a week, and actually do writing during that time so I have project management skills that mean when I sit down I know what to work on, and see how that works?

Because guess what? If you did that, you would be ... Like, everything would be moving towards publication, and there would be many more words on the page.

Jennie: Well, I love that so much because one of the things that I find is- Well, with writing or business or anything is I’ll say, “Oh, I’m working so hard, and I’m so busy on it, and I’m spending all this time on it,” but really what I’m doing is sitting down at my desk and- Yeah

rearranging, you know, [00:09:00] the folders on my desktop again. Or- Yeah ... um, you know, oh, I’ll just go take a little peek over on Instagram, uh, to transition from... You know, like, it’s just- Yeah ... I waste so much time. And-

Cathy: Yeah ...

Jennie: the- it’s- if the, if the idea is, “Well, I got one to two hours, I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that time.”

Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that’s why you have a blueprint, right? Like, this is why you do the blueprint because every time you sit down, you are faced with either the blinking cursor, right, the blank page, or you’re faced even before that with maybe, like, what do I wanna work on? And so for academics, we’re always working on more than one project at once.

We always have, like, most academ- some academics are book writers. Many academics are... Almost all academics are article writers, and so you always have... Like, you never just, like, start the research for an article and [00:10:00] then just only do that until it’s submitted and out in the world. You always have things at these different stages, like I call it your publication pipeline, but, like, you have things that are in the idea stage, in the data collection stage, in the analysis stage, the writing up stage, things that are submitted, you’re waiting to get editorial feedback on them.

All of that is happening all the time. So you, when you sit down, you’re making a choice between all of these possible projects, unless you have a great project management system, you know? Or unless you have a roadmap that says like, “Okay, well, here’s my roadmap. Let me... You’re my blueprint. Like, let me sit down and start here.”

You know? You ha- you need to have that place to start, or you’ll just wheel spin with those, uh, one or two hours once or t- once or twice a week.

Jennie: So I’m curious about what other objections people bring to your method. You said the first- Mm-hmm ... objection was, “Well, I, I need these giant blocks of time.” Yeah.

What are some of the other objections that you hear to it?

Cathy: Yeah. I think a lot of them, and [00:11:00] I think this is so common in, in writers of all kinds, is like, “I’m, I’m gonna let myself down.” Like, the, the, the biggest kind of mental thing is like, “Oh, I’ve tried it. I’ve tried to hold that time before, but I’ve never been successful at it, so if I keep trying, I’ll just keep disappointing myself.”

Um, whereas, like, the more structures and systems you put into place, the better those things can hold up those one to two hours once or twice a week, and then potentially grow them even. But you have to have, like, it, it can’t be just I put it on my calendar- Because there has to be, the mindset has to be in the right place.

You have to be honoring that time. Like, you- finding the time on your calendar is problem one for sure, like, because people are booked up. But the second part of that problem is I found it, I [00:12:00] put it there, and then when a student tried to make an appointment with me and they just couldn’t possibly find any other time, I put them right on top of my writing.

Or what many of the other possible scenarios where you would just schedule over what you had held for writing, and I think that’s a That’s a situation that’s common among everybody with a life, right? Like, “Oh, the plumber said they could come during that time, and here I am just writing.” Just writing. You know, like, that’s the first thing that has to change.

Like, you have to f- to honor that writing time just like you would honor that really hard to get dermatologist appointment.

Outro: That’s what it needs to be. That’s the level of honoring that we’re, that we’re talking about.

Jennie: I’m laughing- Am I- ... ‘cause I’m looking, I, like, literally have been thinking whilst on this, we’re looking at video while we’re recording this at how beautiful your skin is, so it’s hilarious that you mention that.

I’m like, “Oh, wait. Maybe I need to be centering the dermatologist more.” [00:13:00]

Cathy: Listen, I don’t have a dermatologist appointment. If I did, I would, I would hold that. The one that really resonates for me, and maybe with some other moms of, like, kids, like, school-aged kids, is the freaking dentist. Like, I can’t get a freaking kid’s dentist appointment.

Like, I call and they’re like, “Yeah, we’re just all booked up.” I’m like, “How is this possible?” You know, and so if there’s a dentist appointment, I hold on to that. That’s the kind of tenacity we want around the honoring the writing appointments.

Jennie: So I wanna stick with this concept a little bit more, because I, I actually was writing about this for the Write Big, uh- Mm

book that I’m working on. Mm. And this idea that the reward of writing is way down the road. It- Mm. We don’t really have any evidence that it’s gonna actually pay off. Yeah. And I think that that tends to be the reason why it’s so easy to say, “Well, this doesn’t really matter,” or, [00:14:00] “I c- shouldn’t really commit to this,” or, “I shouldn’t go all in on this.”

And some of that pressure comes from our own selves, as you mentioned. Yeah. But a lot of it comes from the people who love us, who are in our homes even, or, you know- Yeah ... the pressure, like, if you’re trying to protect that hour or that four hours in your week and it’s, you know, “Well, can you do this errand?”

Or, “This kid got sick,” or this. To be, to say, “Well, no, that’s my writing time”-

Cathy: Yeah ...

Jennie: it, it’s like, well, what evidence do you have that that’s worth anything? Yeah. Right? Is ... Do you find that with academics too?

Cathy: Uh, I think that, yes, 100%, um, because the payoff is really far away. Um, but even, like, I would argue that another thing happening in people’s heads is that the payoff might be somebody read it and hated it.[00:15:00]

Like, so you’re also avoiding it because- You know, like the end result might be that you, like turn it into your book coach, and the book coach says you have to redo it all. Right. You know? Or like- You missed

Jennie: the mark. Right ...

Cathy: you missed the mark. Exactly. And so, but like we just don’t think of that, or so that fear of that we’re gonna do this work, we’re gonna hold our writing time, which feels very selfish and feels like who do you think you are that you’re gonna hold time for your writing, you know?

Like, who are you, Ernest Hemingway? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like we, we have these thoughts in our head, and then we, and then, um, the, the great payoff of all of that hard work of holding the time and actually doing the writing might be, in the case of my people, like that some real A-hole reviewer tears you apart.

And-

Jennie: Because your- Yeah ... people have to have peer reviews- That’s right ... for everything, right?

Cathy: For [00:16:00] everything. Even books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everything is peer reviewed, and I mean, I was just coaching somebody yesterday on like why are, why we have, I call it like submission friction. Like I talk about all these different points in the writing process, and how- Every point, there’s like, there’s friction to move the work from one kind of thing to another kind of thing.

So there, like when you go from draft to like submitted article, y- it’s becoming something different, and your job and your relationship to the, that piece of writing is different between when you’ve drafted it and when you’ve submitted it to a journal. Um, there’s lots of other transition points, but I was coaching somebody yesterday who was like, “Yeah, I got all this really bad feedback,” like really badly worded feedback, right?

Like, it wasn’t just critical, it was also delivered poorly because peer review in academia is blind, so you don’t know who read it, and so people say all kinds of things [00:17:00] without you, you know, without fear that you’re g- they’re gonna see you at a conference. So you know, supposedly they don’t know who you are, you don’t know who they are.

And it can be like really horrible, and this, this client, she was like, “I just can’t... I have trouble, I’m having trouble submitting anything from that study because that person’s words are in my head.” Oh. So like, so we also have like for the great effort of holding the writing time and doing, we might get these terrible things that like stop us in our tracks, and then we have to like coach our own minds through like, okay, why is it true that submitting again won’t necessarily have those same results, you know, and whatever else you need to, you know...

Like I work with my clients on different things they can think to get over that friction of submitting and that fear. But, but yeah, like sometimes there’s a payoff, and sometimes the payoff is like, “Congratulations, we’re g- people are really mean.”

Jennie: [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah,

Cathy: yeah. Yeah,

Jennie: so how much time do you spend in your program, would you say, on You know, so there’s the tactics and the- Mm-hmm

setting up the systems- Yeah ... versus mindset. Yeah. Like, what’s the balance?

Cathy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my program is set up so that you do the program in 12 weeks, and guess how long it takes to do the program every week? One to two hours. And you do it once or twice a week. So, like, if you take the program, it forces you to hold, like, an hour to do the material and an hour for a live call.

So the live call is where we’re really getting into the coaching stuff. Like, I, you know, there’s only so much coaching you can do on, like, a prerecorded lesson, right? But we do talk about mindset, um, throughout the whole thing. But on the coaching calls is really when we talk about mindset and, and get to figure out, like, [00:19:00] is the problem that you’re having actually a strategy problem, or are you having a mindset problem?

Is it, like, something that’s happening, or is it the way you’re thinking about what’s happening? So I would say it’s, like, a half and half, um, kind of breakdown between strategies and, um, techniques and, like, here’s processes, and let’s get your mind right.

Jennie: Well, I mean, that’s, to me, a, a giant revelation. I, I believe that mindset is at least 50% as well.

Yeah, yeah. And I think most writers don’t have any idea that, how important mindset is. And the program you and I are in together, the business mastermind that we’re in together, is hugely mindset focused, and it- Yeah ... it’s hard to show up with your mindset stuff. It’s embarrassing. Mm. Mm. And, you know, it’s hard to get coaching on it, at least for me anyway, because it’s, oftentimes it’s like, “You’re saying the same thing in a different way.

[00:20:00] Like, that’s just the same story, different words,” you know? You really have to confront the narratives that you have in your head, and where they came from, and what they’re serving, and that’s work too, right? Yeah,

Cathy: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,

Jennie: absolutely. And I mean, that’s, to me, the thing that I’ve, I’ve really learned, and your program honors that idea by half the time that people are spending is the, the mindset.

Cathy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and then we also... Like, the program is designed so that you take it once, and then you can keep taking additional rounds of the program. The content of the program doesn’t change, but you continue to have these mi- these, these coaching calls, right? Where we talk about, there’s kind of two part- like, two themes of the coaching calls.

Like, one theme is like, oh, now I- my whole calendar is really mission aligned, and I’m holding my writing time and whatever. And then what is the series of problems that happens after that, [00:21:00] right? Like, what’s the next level? Like, now that we’ve solved these things, ‘cause there’s never no, there’s never no problems.

Like, like, the next set of problems, uh, presents itself. Um, so we coach on those things. But also, like, I’ve just been, especially this, in this next group, I’ve told people, like, I’m like, “We’re gonna do more mindset than ever.” Like, we’re just gonna really coach your brains on, um, you know, on perfectionism, on procrastination, on transition friction, on zombie projects, on like, um-

Jennie: What’s a zombie project?

Cathy: Ooh, those are those things that are like, they’re not going anywhere. They’re dead, but you’re holding onto them in your mind, like someday I’m gonna get back to that. And it is not healthy to do that. So we, I, when I talk about, like, um, how to manage multiple projects at once, like so think multiple articles that you’re writing at once, people [00:22:00] have...

Like, academics have, I don’t know, like 10, 20 articles that they have, like that they’re holding in their mind as like these are possible articles that I could work on or these are projects that... I call them projects in play, right? Well, a lot of times like five of those are like, “Oh, this is a project I started.

There might be words on the page, but it stalled out.” We needed to do a reanalysis, and we didn’t n- and, and it was gonna be a lot of work to go back and do that, so it’s just kind of like alive but dead, right? Like a zombie. Yeah. So I tell people, and again, they fight me on this, like I’m like, “You need to kill them.”

Like you need... Zombie projects aren’t for resuscitating. They are for blessing and releasing. They are for like this is done. This is not going to... Because they’re in the way of all of the other living projects. So I talk about the projects as like we have a top three that are kind of, that we’re maybe rotating between or [00:23:00] that like once we, we, we submit something from the top three we can like promote something else, and then everybody else is sleeping.

You know? Just tell them they need to take a nap. And then the zombie projects we’re just, we kill them. You can, if you must, have a folder on your computer and put them there, but you need to get them out of like your working mind. They shouldn’t be in your pipeline. They should be like they... Because we can only hold so many things, and we can only manage so many projects at once, so we have to create systems and processes to make it feel like we’re only working on one thing at a time

Jennie: Well, I think this idea, which I adore now that I know what it is-

um, applies to book writers as well. Everybody has more than one book idea, and they have the book idea that they wanna write after the book that they’re working on, or they started three at a time or s- you know, oftentimes there’s a thing that happens, I think it happens about two-thirds of the way through a [00:24:00] book- Hmm

where suddenly you have a great idea for another book that is shinier and prettier and brighter and better- Yes ... than the one you’re working on.

Outro: Yep.

Jennie: And so this idea, I think, really applies to book writers, and most of us who are writing and sharing anything are also writing other content like- Yes. Yes

Substack and, um, or a newsletter or a podcast or whatever th- whatever the content that we’re working on is. So do you think that this idea of the zombie project- Mm-hmm ... or folder can apply there as well?

Cathy: For sure, because here’s the thing, right? The shiny object syndrome is really real be- and it, and it relates actually to the submission friction that I was talking about.

Like, I did a call about that just yesterday. Like, it relates because- Before your project is done, right, before it’s submitted, before it’s turned in, whatever, [00:25:00] it has the potential to be the very most amazing, best book that has ever been written by anyone. And as long as I don’t submit it, it is holding that potential.

Jennie: Yes. Okay.

Cathy: And so once the, so the more, but the more done the book gets, the less po- Like, almost like the less that po- the, the more that potential is kind of decreasing because it, it’s not that it’s not great, maybe it is that book, but like the potential of what it could become when it actually has become something is less, right, than the new shiny idea because the new shiny idea then has like all of this potential.

So, so I think that’s the, the newness of something like is, i- is very attractive, and it has so much to do with like our brains trying to avoid the hard work of the finishing and trying to... Like, [00:26:00] w- when something is new, you don’t know what the writing problems are yet. Yeah. But what, what’s existing, you have a lot of problems to solve.

There’s a ton of decisions to make.

Jennie: Yeah.

Cathy: And, um, and, and that, that feels hard and heavy.

Jennie: So for our listeners who are finishing up their blueprints, they’re coming across one of those friction points you talked about, where you’re going from planning your book, thinking about it, solving some problems, to you’re going back to writing ‘cause the- Yeah

blueprint is a kind of a pause. Not kind of, it’s a pause, and now you’re going back to the writing, and that s- transition is something a lot of writers don’t acknowledge- that it’s a different thing. So that idea- Right ... you were talking about of, um, when your academic writers are shifting from, you know, one thing to another.

They have a lot more shifts in a lot [00:27:00] more compressed period of time. But writers absolutely go through this, and then when they, when they call it done and get it to beta readers, and then they get it back and get it to, you know, going to pitch, those are all transition points. So a lot of our listeners are at one of those right now.

Yeah. What is, what is the mindset work to, that you guide people for shifting from one, um, process to another?

Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So your job changes. Like, that’s the, that, that’s the, you know ... Like, the job of, like, when you’re doing the blueprint, right? It’s a planning, it’s a pausing, it’s a thinking, it’s a

Right? The same thing we do, like, I teach a writing planning process, and that process is one kind of job, right? The job of, like, making decisions- And executing on those decisions. So the making decisions is another job, and the [00:28:00] executing on the decisions is another job. So just realizing, like, what is my job in this moment, that is a really powerful thing to think about and think like, “No, in the scope of this whole project, my job right now is to make decisions that then I can execute on.”

Jennie: Yes.

Cathy: And also... Yes. And not, and remember then, like, you execute on the decisions, and you might have to go back and make new decisions and execute differently. Like, that’s what composition, that’s what composing is, right? But you, you know, keep the job that you’re, for the stage that you’re at, and stop trying to solve the problems of another stage in the process.

Jennie: So bleeding into other jobs sounds like it’s a energy suck. So for, uh, a, somebody finishing the blueprint, it might be, “Well, now I’m gonna start researching agents and conferences I can go to to pitch at.” And it’s like, “No, you gotta write the book,” right? Yes. Is that-

Outro: Exactly, [00:29:00] exactly ...

Jennie: is that the kind of thing- Yes

yeah.

Cathy: Yeah, and so, like, a- and it’s also, I talk a- I talk in the program about, like, you’re solving the wrong problem at the wrong level, right? Like, that’s an in- perfect example of I’m solving the wrong problem. Like, I don’t, I don’t need to be, like, thinking about pitching agents. I need to be figuring out what my book idea is.

Like, you know what I mean? And so for, like, in, in, in our, in my program, there’s, you know, let’s say I think that what I have is a writing time problem, but if I don’t have writing project management, like if I don’t know how to plan a paper and I don’t know what the stages it needs to go through are, and I don’t know how to manage it in relation to other papers that I have, I can have two hours of writing, and I will sit there and not know what to do with it.

Jennie: Yes.

Cathy: So, like, there has to be, you know, you ha- so solving, you have to solve the right problem. You know? Like I, okay, I have a backlog of papers. I think it’s ‘cause I don’t have enough time. Like, you probably don’t have enough time, but that’s not the [00:30:00] only problem, you know? And that might not be the most pertinent problem to solve first.

Jennie: Right. I love this. I love this for our people finishing Blueprint. Um, and w- I’m curious just to sort of wrap up our conversation, why do you think... ‘Cause something that’s remarkable about the program that you run, which is again at scholarsvoice.com-

Cathy: It’s actually .org, but yeah

Jennie: Oh, dang.

Outro: Dot org.

Jennie: I said it wrong. Don’t worry about it. It’s fine. Scholarsvoice.org. We’ll put it down in the show notes. It’ll go in the show notes. Yeah. Um, well, the remarkable thing is that people love your program. Like, once they find it, they don’t leave. Yeah. They, they stay for a long time. Years. Yeah. Years and years and years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do you think that is?

Cathy: Because we’re never done. We’re never done as writers.

Jennie: Yeah.

Cathy: Right? Like, we’re always developing, and we’re always [00:31:00] changing, and we’re always responding to new situations. And I just think, like, I think it would be terrible to think, like, “I’ve learned how to write a novel or a book or an article, and now I’m done.

Like, and now I just, like, rinse and repeat for 30 years.” Like, no, that’s not how it works. First of all, it’s just not how it works, and also, would you really want it to work like that? Don’t you want it to get more interesting, different, better? Like, and so that’s why people stay, ‘cause the, the, the curriculum is...

I- it’s called, like, a spiral curriculum, where you could just, like, keep doing it again and again. And as you are going through your career, you are changing, and your situation is changing, and actually the demands of your career are changing. And so you can just continue to do this work over and over again, and, and many people do it and then come back after they’ve had, like, a little career change, and they realize, “Ooh, now all of these things have [00:32:00] shifted, and I need to, like, go back and figure all of this out again.”

And that’s normal and natural and fine and actually amazing.

Jennie: Um, so how can... If people are listening to this, and they’re like, “Wait, I wanna get in on this academic writing-” Yeah ... thing, I... So it’s only for tenured professors. It’s not- So- ... for people who want to be that, right? No.

Cathy: Yeah, so we... It is really for academics.

It’s really geared towards people who are in academic careers, tenured or hoping, you know, tenure-track professors or whatever they call it in the country that you live in, ‘cause it’s called different things. Um, it- we have a lot of people who are mid-career. Like, so it’s not just for early career. Um, but we, we have people at all different career stages, including post-docs, including full-time researchers, and so...

And even sometimes people from industry, like, or nonprofit who are doing research work and need to put out publications [00:33:00] into academic journals. So yeah, and you can go to scholarsvoice.org, and at the top navigation it says, “Publish your backlog,” and that is my Navigate program, which is really focused on helping you publish that backlog of papers and keep papers, like, flowing out into the world.

Um, scholarsvoice.org/navigate is where you’ll find all the information, and you can apply, and it’s open until, open for applications until August 28th.

Jennie: That is awesome. Well, if you’re, if you’re listening, um, now and that speaks to you, you can jump on that. If you’re listening in the future, uh, there will be another opportunity, uh, to get into- Yeah

Cathy’s program. And if you’re listening to the hashtag amwriting, uh, podcast and you’re not an academic, and- You’re finishing a blueprint or you’re realizing after this conversation, “Gosh, I’m doing the wrong job at the wrong [00:34:00] time,” or, “I don’t have a time problem, I have a mindset problem,” or any of these, these ideas that Cathy has shared with us.

Put them into practice and, and I think that for writers listening to podcasts like this is part of the mindset work because- Yes ... you’re listening to bigger conversations and bigger ideas, and you’re getting something in your ear that counteracts that story you’re telling your own self. So, um, I’m just grateful for you, Cathy, for sharing those stories and thoughts with us today, and for doing this amazing work that you’re doing out in the world.

So thank you for joining us.

Cathy: Thank you for having me on the podcast.

Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for being here. Now let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.

Outro: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, [00:35:00] aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.

Jennie Nash introduces an upcoming series of Write Big episodes that share her vulnerable, behind-the-scenes process of turning Write Big concepts into a Write Big book, thanking listeners and inviting paid subscriptions. In this episode, she revisits her “don’t wait to be picked” stance while confronting her own feelings as her book submission process stretches seven or eight months with rejections.

She examines the discomfort beneath wanting to be chosen—entitlement and exceptionalism, loneliness and the desire for an ally, embarrassment about ambition, doubts tied to leadership and authority, and the burden of carrying the project alone if she isn’t picked. Jennie argues that whether writers are picked or not, the creative road is still hard and what matters is one’s response, which she frames as the core of writing big.

Jennie Nash hosts a #amwriting podcast BookLab with guest Kathleen Barber, author of Truth Be Told and newly released Sisterhood Above All (co-written with Amayah Shaienne), and discusses Barber’s range across thrillers and romance, her character-first approach, and how RushTok inspired an authentic sorority-rush thriller featuring Madison, Shay, and Ava as tensions escalate and someone dies. They define RushTok as viral TikTok coverage of University of Alabama sorority recruitment and note its broad international fascination.

In the BookLab, they evaluate three first-page submissions by asking “Would we turn the page?” They praise Heather’s Trust Me for strong voice, vivid Austin setting, and an intriguing problem hook, with minor notes about genre context. They decline Odeon Omega due to unearned logistics and too much dialogue despite an intriguing title/advert. They find Empty Spaces compellingly written but confusing from too many names and unclear stakes, suggesting more interiority and clarity.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Connect with Kathleen

Visit Kathleen’s website to find her books and more: https://www.kathleenbarber.com

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a book lab session where we answer the most important question about your first pages.

Would we pick up the book? Would we turn the page? Today, I have a really special guest with me. I have Kathleen Barber here, who is so many things. She’s the author of Truth Be Told, which was adapted as a series on Apple TV, Follow Me, Both Things Are True, and just brand new, like it came out four days ago, Sisterhood Above All, with, I’m gonna try her name, Amaya Chen?

How do you-

Barbara: Yeah. Uh, um, yeah. That’s, that’s very close. I think it’s Amaya Chen.

Jennie: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so we’re gonna hear about that in a minute. Um, I haven’t, I haven’t cracked it open yet, but I’m so [00:01:00] excited for it. Um, Kathleen’s also an Author Accelerator certified book coach and a former attorney, and she lives in Washington, DC with her family.

So welcome, Kathleen.

Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Jennie: So I watched your unboxing the other day. It was so fun, and I didn’t realize that we had scheduled this right on top of, like the actual- Oh ... launch of your book.

Barbara: No, that, that’s okay. It’s, it’s great. Um, it gives me something to think about that’s not just, like, spiraling.

Like, is anybody gonna read my book? Is anybody gonna like it? Um, so it gives me something else to focus on.

Jennie: Well, it’s so interesting you say that because I think of you as this really seasoned pro and, you know, it’s been really interesting for me to watch your career because you’ve written some really different kinds of books.

You did a ... Well, your first book was obviously a big thriller and a huge success, and at one point, you pivoted to romance, and now you’re doing ... Well, I, I saw that book list [00:02:00] called Sisterhood Above All, a soapy thriller Yes. Yes ... which is such a great description, and you did it with a collaborator. So you just seem interested in story to me.

Barbara: I, I am. Yeah. I’m always very ... I always start a story with the characters. Um, and so then their story kind of spirals out from there. Um, yeah, so I, my last book that came out before this one was, was a rom-com. Um, and I was really nervous when I started writing it. I was like, “How am I going to write this when I’ve been writing suspense and thrillers before?”

And it turns out that, like, at the heart of it, stories are stories, and people are people, and, you know, in a romance, happy things happen. In a thriller, bad things happen, but things still happen.

Jennie: Amazing. So give us the overview of the brand new book, ‘cause it’s, it’s really juicy.

Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, so I’m really excited about it.

Um, Sisterhood Above All is a thriller set during sorority rush, and so it follows three different [00:03:00] women who are involved there. There’s Madison, who is the president of what’s she perceives as to be the coolest sorority on campus, so she’s kind of the gatekeeper, and there’s Shay, who is the president of a rival sorority and trying to shake, shake up the Greek institutions, and then there’s Ava, who is a potential new member.

She’s going through rush. She’s desperate to join Madison’s sorority, um, and she might be a little too desperate. Uh, so you know, it’s a thriller. Bad things happen. Somebody dies, um, you know, and things kind of spiral out, spiral out of control.

Jennie: But tell us about the collaboration, ‘cause it’s- Yeah ... so interesting how that came about and how it went and-

Barbara: Yeah.

You know, it was, it was a lot of fun. Um, I, like many writers, write alone, and I had never really considered collaborating with anybody before, um, but- But when I was kind of talking about this, I, I’d been pitching my agent a sorority themed thriller for a while. [00:04:00] Um, and at one point when, when Rush Talk was getting really big a couple summers ago, she was like, “This is the moment.

This, you should write this book, but I think that in order to make it feel more authentic, we should bring in somebody who’s living this in this moment.” Um, so one of her colleagues found Amaya, who, um, was up until very, very recently an active member of a sorority at the University of Alabama, and brought us together.

And Amaya and I got along right away, and we both had kind of the same vision for what we wanted the book to be, and so collaborating with her was, was a lot of fun in a way that I had been nervous that it wouldn’t be. But it was, it was a really good time, and I’m really, really proud of the book.

Jennie: So for those who don’t know or weren’t following, can you tell us what Rush Talk-

Barbara: Yeah

was

Jennie: or is

Barbara: or- Yeah ... shall be? Yes, yes, yes. So, um, so if you’re gonna join a sorority, um, you go through, you go through recruitment and which is very slangily [00:05:00] called rush. Um, and so on TikTok a few years ago, um, people started sharing about their experiences during sorority rush, but specifically, uh, during sorority rush at the University of Alabama.

Um, and it really took on a life of its own, like people were watching it like it was, you know, a television program. Uh, they made a documentary about it, which, you know, I’ll, I will let you make your own conclusions about the documentary. Um, but people just got really, really into it, and people... And it was kind of appealing to people who had gone through sorority rush at some point, were thinking about going through a sorority rush, or who were just invested in, you know, watching people have these kind of outlandish experiences and, and share them.

So, um, it

Jennie: was a lot of fun. My understanding was that it got very, very popular in other countries?

Barbara: I- it’s definitely... [00:06:00] Yeah. You know, um- So sorority, some, some sororities are international. Not, not all of them are. Um, but by and large, when they say international, they mean that there are chapters in Canada, not that, like, there are chapters in, you know, like Europe or, or other countries.

And so it just, it’s something that is so unique and so, like, uniquely about, like, this type of college experience that I think it’s been really interesting to people in lots of different places.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. So obviously the book has been out, like, mere hours here. But, um, how does it feel? Are you, are you- It’s exciting

you said you were excited and proud and- So

Barbara: exciting. Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m really, really proud of the book. I love it. I mean, I know everybody, like, loves their own books, but I do. I truly, like, love this book, and I just really hope that the readers do too.

Jennie: You know, it’s not true that everybody loves their book.

I, I was dying to have somebody on the podcast who will never come on the podcast. But I- Yeah ... I heard a story about somebody who [00:07:00] got a seven-figure deal for a book that they really didn’t actually love, and then- Oh, no ... they, they wrote it. It came out, and then when they had to co- come time to do the publicity, they just dreaded it.

They, it was like a, just they did it for the money. They got the money, and then didn’t, didn’t wanna talk about it, like felt sort of ashamed about it. And I was like, “Oh, please, come talk about that.” But of course they, they won’t. So...

Barbara: That’s wild. Isn’t that wild? That’s wild. Yeah. I just, I just can’t even imagine how that would feel.

Um, I mean...

Jennie: I know. Well, I, uh, the cover of this, um, of this new book, Sisterhood Above All, is- is really cool too. So we will link to it in the show notes, and everyone can go read it and check it out, and, um, Kathleen’s other books, I’ve read them all, and you have such range and, um, like I said, [00:08:00] interesting stories.

So with that, let’s get to our, our Book Lab entries. We just always wanna start by thanking those who submitted. It’s not easy to do this, to put your stuff out there with no context and no ability to talk back or anything and have random s- people on the internet, you know, talk about your stuff. So really appreciate the, the risk-taking of doing that, and we do this in order to help us all get better and, and learn, you know, what works and, and, um, for your own self or your own writing, what, what you want it to be.

So what we’re gonna do, as always, is I’m gonna read the entry, and then we’re gonna ask ourselves, would we turn the page? So, um, the first entry is Fiction and it is, uh, author’s name is [00:09:00] Heather and the name of the work is Trust Me. So here we go

I can’t tell you whether it’s the Johnny Cash mural, clusters of candles nestled into every corner of the long stone bar, or the smoky scent of Palo Santo that tucks Austin into my head the first night. Maybe it’s the unexpected jazz trio on a Tuesday in a town built for blues, country, and rock, or it could be the two cowboys deep in conversation at a table in the back of the bar.

I’ll later, I’ll later learn that making a hot Austin guy a cowboy because of his hat, faded jeans, and scuffed boots is the same as labing- labeling a frat bro in a hoodie and sweats an athlete. It’s just how they dress. I can tell you I like the looks of Austin men a hell of a lot better, especially that wide silver belt buckle that dresses up the whole package in a bow.

It’s going [00:10:00] on nine PM when I arrive at Whistlers in East Austin, and the bartender hands, hands me a peach-colored mezcal craft cocktail. Fresh juice, pungent herbs, and the smoky sister to tequila are the perfect salve after what’s transpired since my flight landed from New York two hours earlier. I follow the snake tattoo on his foreha- forearm as the bartender shakes another cocktail for the couple next to me.

Damn, he’s hot, too. The crowd starts to pick up, and I signal Snake Tattoo for another before I lose his attention for good. The warm agave liquor spreads through my bones, and I start to relax. Maybe this isn’t the disaster I think it is. Maybe I can actually pull it off. I glance around at the mostly twenty and thirty-something crowd angling for spots at the bar.

The women wear short dresses and long hair. The men, well, those jeans are something, along with their finely cut biceps and well-placed tattoos. Can’t help but glance over at those cowboys again and get a warm smile in [00:11:00] return. Easy, girl. Back to business. I have a problem, and this second mezcal is going to help me solve it.

All right. What do you think? What was your first impression?

Barbara: I really enjoyed that. I would definitely turn the page there. I, I feel like there was, like, a really strong sense of, sense of place, and I, in particular, I really enjoyed the, the first line, not only because it gives us that sense of place, but it, because it also then tells us something about the narrator and how she perceives the world around her in that first line.

Jennie: Yeah, and, and there’s a good m- a, a good question at hand here, which is what’s she doing here?

Barbara: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: She’s come from New York. We get that. It’s a little unclear how, how old she is, ‘cause she’s referencing other people’s ages, but not her own, so we, we don’t really know what’s happening or what, what’s, what’s about.

[00:12:00] Um, I mean, I thought the writ-

Barbara: Well, I

Jennie: agree. Yeah. I thought the writing was great. It sort of tripped along-

Barbara: Mm ...

Jennie: um, nicely. I

Barbara: like at the end where... I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to step on you. No,

Jennie: no, go. Yeah. I like at

Barbara: the end, I like at the end where, um, she says she has a problem, and the second mezcal is gonna help her solve it.

I thought that was really interesting, ‘cause I, it piqued my interest, made me wanna know what the problem is, but it’s also kind of funny. Like, the mezcal’s probably not gonna help you solve your problem, but it’s like...

Jennie: Yeah. No, it’s so true. I was longing for a little bit more of a sense of what’s happening here.

I mean, this could be any kind of story at this point. It could be she could be a spy. She could be an assassin. She could be trying to get a guy back. Like, we, there’s really no sense of what the story’s gonna be. I always like that on the first page. What about you?

Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree with you. I, it, it could, it could go in any direction.

I kind of [00:13:00] sense from the tone that it’s, you know, it’s going to be something, uh- Well, I guess I don’t know. You know, honestly. Now, now that I’m looking at it again and thinking about it, um, you’re right, it could be... The, the problem that she has could be a thriller problem, or it could be a romantic problem, since she’s kind of made, made comments about the different men.

I think that was a hint to me that it might be a romantic problem that she’s having, but I actually don’t know.

Jennie: Yeah. The, the- obviously she’s clocking all the hot guys in this bar, which tells us something, either about her or what she’s up to. We don’t know. Um, but yeah, it’s, um, really good detail, like the, you mentioned that first line, and I liked the line about her sh- the self-awareness about, you know, she calls him a cowboy and then she says, you know, sort of like, “Oh, right, that’s not really fair.”

Mm-hmm. “We don’t know.” [00:14:00] You know, that, I thought that was, made me think- Yeah ... this character’s gonna know themselves.

Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree with that. I, I also really enjoyed the kind of specificity that she uses in the descriptions, like when she talks about, you know, the, the cocktail that she’s drinking, and the tattoo on the bartender’s arm.

Like, I just felt like those details really made the story come alive for me. So that, like, even if I didn’t exactly know where we were going, I could, I could picture where we were.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really well said. Well, we like this. I think I would, I would turn the page.

Barbara: I would, I would too, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jennie: We would turn the page. Um, I mean, the only notes I think for me would be, I mean, it’s always so tricky, because if we were picking this book up, the title, Trust Me, doesn’t really tell us anything, but the cover would.

Outro: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: The vibe of the cover would. We’d have a little more context for where we were and [00:15:00] what this was about, and that would probably help with the issue that, that I have, which is, well, what kind of book is this?

We don’t know. Um, and you know, now that I’m thinking of it, we don’t even know whe- where we are in time. Um, I’m, I’m assuming modern day, but I don’t know why I assumed that. It, maybe it’s not. So maybe just a tiny bit more of a sense of- Uh, context for the reader. Mm-hmm. But that’s my only note. L- do you have any notes?

Barbara: Yeah. You know, I honestly don’t think that I, I have any additional notes. I mean, I, I really enjoyed this selection, and I would definitely keep reading here.

Jennie: Well, Heather, that’s high praise, so

Barbara: Yeah, I, I usually have ideas. I usually have notes but I don’t.

Jennie: Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s g- a good one for us to start with, and very fun, I hope, for you to hear that from Kathleen.

All right, let’s [00:16:00] go to our, our next one. This is fiction. It’s called Odeon Omega, um, and the author is ... Well, the, the, um, it’s coming across as, um, Sound Smith, but who knows what that is? So, um, Odeon Omega, they will know who they are, for sure. All right, here we go. “The grand O-O opening continues all month long at your new entertainment destination, the one and only, first of its kind on this or any other coast, the all-new, all-excitement Odeon Omega.

‘Gah!’ Emmy shrieked from the bathroom. ‘You can turn the TV volume down now, Seth. We’re done.’ Seth was still lying in bed, his naked body mostly covered with Emmy’s cream-colored, satiny soft sheets. He chuckled while reaching for the remote. ‘I wasn’t the one who turned it up.’ ‘I know that. I have to [00:17:00] turn the TV way up like that, though.

It’s the only way to drown out the neighbors. The walls in this place are so damn thin, and they’re always banging on them, disturbing me when I’m trying to have sex.’ ‘Those b******s,’ Seth chuckled. ‘I’m saying, I like ... I’m saying, like, what am I supposed to do? Not f**k? Hey, that is so not an option,’ Seth p- Seth pressed the mute button, then went back to lying on his back, his hands behind his head.

Another noise startled him, this one coming from Emmy’s phone. A toneless version of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun blared from Emmy’s clutch purse. ‘Turn that off, too,’ Emmy shouted from the bathroom. ‘That’s my mother’s ringtone. I don’t feel like talking to her right now.’ Seth rolled over to the nightstand and opened her clutch and found the button to silence Emmy’s phone.

He lingered on the image of Emmy’s mother. ‘Wow, Emmy, you and your mom could pass for sisters, easy.’ ‘Ew, don’t tell me that,’ Emmy said. ‘Tell her that, but not me. Bet you’re already imagining yourself in a threesome with her and me, [00:18:00] aren’t you?’ ‘Huh, what’s that?’ Seth was distracted by Emmy’s driver’s license in the clutch’s interior pocket.

He slid it out of the pocket and read what he assumed was Emmy’s birth name. ‘Myrtle? What? Your re- your real name is Myrtle?’ Emmy stepped out of the bathroom, still naked from their lovemaking, with a sky blue-colored towel clenched between her legs.”

That’s a vibe.

Barbara: It is. It is, yeah. I mean, opening, uh, opening in the aftermath of sex is a, is a bold choice. I’ll be honest, I don’t feel like I have very much context for what’s happening here. Um, it seems like Emmy and Seth don’t know each other very

Jennie: well. I got that sense, too. I got that sense, too, and that the sex that she has this system for turning up the TV has been for other people.

Barbara: Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] Yeah. On, on that note, though, I did kind of have, uh, a fundamental disbelief about the setup that was giving me a stumbling block when I was reading this, just because it didn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me that she would turn up the television to distract herself from the neighbors, when I would think that that would be more distracting or, you know, just use music or...

And I didn’t really understand why she would be explaining it to him after the fact instead of in the moment. Um, that felt like it was perhaps just put there for the reader,

Jennie: so that we could be distracted. Yeah, it was a little explainy, a little... Yeah, like a, um, we use that term info dump, and an info dump doesn’t have to be a whole scene.

It can just be a line like that where I, I didn’t buy it either that she would actually say that to him now. Mm-hmm. If... He probably would’ve said, “Why are you turning the TV on?”

Barbara: Right.

Jennie: Earlier.

Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, [00:20:00] yeah, and it seemed like that would be the conversation that would have before we got to this moment. So that was something that, that I struggled with a bit.

Jennie: I also didn’t believe, it felt like, uh, unearned that he’s pulling this license out of her purse. I could see, I could see that he might have seen something on her phone if he’s turning her phone off. But-

Barbara: Mm-hmm ...

Jennie: to, to actually then see... I kept, like I was trying to think through the logistics. Like, okay, see one of those little slidey things inside a purse, but you can’t see- Mm

the driver’s license. Like, why would he reach in and pull it out? It felt like the author wanted us to get to this moment where- Mm-hmm ... Seth got this information.

Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jennie: It, yeah, it felt unearned to me.

Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree, especially because it doesn’t seem like Seth knows her very well, obviously. Then for him to be [00:21:00] digging around in her clutch purse felt- Untrue to the situation, um, unless something else was going on that we don’t hear about.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Um, this... When I said, like, “Well, this is a vibe,” this character has a, a tone or a style or sense about, like a sort of swagger about- Mm-hmm ... her that interests me. Um, I happen to be in the middle... I’m behind everybody else, but I’m in the middle of reading Yesteryear. Oh. Have you read-

Barbara: Oh. Yes, yes.

Jennie: Don’t tell me what ha- I, I- Don’t tell me ...

Barbara: I w- I won’t. I was also late to it, and everybody was trying to tell me about it, and I was just constantly walking around going, “No spoilers, no spoilers.” Yeah.

Jennie: But the, that character has, has such a brashness- Mm-hmm ... of point of view and opinion in both, um, both parts of the story there, and there’s something about this character that rem- reminds me of that.

[00:22:00] There’s like a, I don’t know, um, a, just a brashness. S- And I, I’ve been enjoying that protagonist- Mm-hmm ... the Yesteryear protagonist, just ‘cause it’s unusual. I’ve read a tiny bit, and I know people are saying, “Oh, she is so unlikable,” but there’s just something of a character that’s so owning their, um-

Barbara: Mm-hmm

Jennie: way, and this woman’s ownership of, of her sexuality, I guess, I, I thought was- Hmm ... interesting.

Barbara: Yeah. No, I, I, I know what you mean, and I, I, I am intrigued by her as a character because, I mean, again, here she, she seems to have kind of an interesting setup in a, an apartment building that has thin walls, um, has this system of turning up her television, um, but not with Seth before.

So, you know, it seems like she’s had several partners back to this, this space. Um, but she seems very, very confident and, like you said, kind of swaggery [00:23:00] with him. Um, so yeah, I, I am intrigued to know more about, like, who she is and what makes her that way. Um...

Jennie: Yeah. Uh, for me, probably not enough to turn the page.

Um-

Barbara: Not for, not for me either. I-

Jennie: Yeah. And, and I have to say that the thing that intrigues me the most about this whole thing is that the title of this book is Odeon Omega, and that’s the random, um- I think that’s the random show on TV

Barbara: Yeah,

Jennie: the- Am I ma- am I

Barbara: making that up? No, no, no, that, that, that’s the first line.

It’s, um, it sounds like it’s maybe like a commercial. I was kind of envisioning it from the way that it was spelled out as, you know, kind of like, uh, oh, the way that like a, a carnival or like a car salesman is like, “The grand o- o- opening.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that’s kind of how I was envisioning it.

Um, so I, I didn’t, I did enjoy s- seeing that right up front, um, [00:24:00] but I wanted more context to understand what it was, because without that, I, I don’t know what that line means. Um-

Jennie: And that just the author’s choice, like, okay, the TV’s on f- for a random reason- Mm-hmm ... or for her systematic sex reason, and, and she’s hearing this show opening, and then that’s the title of the book.

Like, something about this, I, I thought of it as a, yeah, like a carnival or a show or something- Mm-hmm ... a theme park, um, that there’s g- that’s gonna become central to the story. It’s kind of an interesting way of putting that in in, and presumably- Mm ... it will come back, um- Yeah ... in an important way. But I, I was intrigued by that most of all, actually.

Barbara: Yeah. No, same, especially because that’s the moment that Emmy says, “Turn the volume down.” So I was, uh, so it made it seem, to me at least, that there was something about that particular advertisement that she [00:25:00] was reacting to, and I wanted to know what that was.

Jennie: Well, that’s a really great point, and I think if we were to give this writer some guidance- Um, it might be to make more of that.

Mm. If the character reacts more to that. Like, in, you know, that she can’t hear it or that it’s upsets her in a particular way, or she gives us some information or context about that so that we, I don’t know, I guess we need to be more grounded in, in what’s happening.

Barbara: Yeah. And I also just feel like that would give us a little bit more s- because it, that’s right there in the title, so it’s obviously gonna be important to the story.

And so like that would give us a little bit of curiosity about what it is and would propel us to try and understand why she’s reacting the way that she is. Um-

Jennie: Yeah. And just from a technical [00:26:00] standpoint, I’m looking at this entry, it’s almost all dialogue.

Barbara: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Which I think is hard on a, an opening page.

Uh, don’t you? I think-

Barbara: I, I do. I, I would really have liked to see a little bit more interiority from Emmy here to kind of, I don’t know, understand how she feels, not only about that advertisement, but about, about Seth. Like, did she li- does she like Seth, or is he just like a guy, you know? Um, I just wanted to know a little bit more about how she, who I’m presuming is the protagonist, is experiencing this scene.

Jennie: Yeah. Um, yeah, there was even a moment when I thought, “Is she selling sex?” Mm-hmm. Is, is that... Is she a sex worker? Um, you know- True ... so too many questions about what’s, what’s happening here, which I think could be solved by, um, balancing out the dialogue, um, w- with some other information. [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, I’m, um, I’m hoping that this character gets a story that we want, we want to read ‘cause I’m intrigued.

Barbara: Yeah. Same. Same.

Jennie: Yeah. All right. We have one more that we’re going to, um, read. Do you wanna read this one? From your little, “Oh, oh, oh,” opening- ... I was like, “Oh, maybe you’re a good narrator. I’m not.”

Barbara: Sure. Sure. I’ll, I’ll read it. Um, so this one is called Empty Spaces. Um, it’s fiction. I’m not entirely certain who the author is, unless I’m missing that in the spreadsheet.

It looks like perhaps it starts with a T. Um, but here, here is the submission. “April 1st, 1995. ‘Please, please, please,’ Corey sputtered, gripping the black receiver with both hands while the operator relayed her [00:28:00] request. ‘Person-to-person call for Tess. Will you accept the charges?’ ‘No, she’s asleep.’ Corey knew her mother was at the beige phone on the kitchen wall a thousand miles away.

Then her father’s voice in the background. ‘Honey, let the girl talk to her dau-...’ And dial tone. Corey slammed the receiver back into its cradle. ‘What the f**k?’ She missed. Her knuckles scraped the chrome holder, and she unleashed her fury on the edge of the black payphone. ‘F**k, f**k, f*****g f****r.’ The rain that had been collecting in the roo- in the rim of the payphone box was shaken loose by her tantrum and cascaded down inside the collar of her flay- flight jacket.

Well, Charlie’s flight jacket. ‘Skipper,’ came Top’s quiet baritone from behind her. ‘We’re ready to roll.’ ‘Thanks, Top.’ Corey accepted the styrofoam cup of coffee he handed her, then sloshed her way to the lead truck, Arlo trotting at her heels. She hoisted herself up into the passenger side of the rig. Arlo curled up beside her and dug his head into her lap.

Why did her mother have to be such a [00:29:00] little b***h? And on this night. Was it too much to expect her to remember that it was Charlie’s birthday? No, Maria remembered. She was the one who kept a file of birthday cards, organized by month and paper clipped to envelopes, neatly stamped and addressed to the recipient.

But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.” After a few minutes, Top started his status report. “Got word from the 24-hour man. The lot they gave us was too small and underwater. He put up a fuss and got us moved to the football field at the high school.” Corey took a sip. “It’ll be nice to have a dry lot.

Daisy’s got that one nail that looks a little soft.” She fiddled with the radio, settling on a country station, what else was there, and yawned. “Where are we headed tonight?” And that is it.

Jennie: Wow, well, author T., uh, Wood, what a treat to have Kathleen Barber read your, read your stuff like that. Gee, you, you sounded amazing.

You sounded like you’d written that. That was so cool. Do you- I, uh- ... narrate your own books?

Barbara: I, I do not, but I have [00:30:00] small children, and I read aloud every night.

Jennie: Do you do the voices?

Barbara: Oh, yes, I definitely do the voices.

Jennie: Do you do all of them, like, in a

Barbara: very- I do all of them.

Jennie: You do?

Barbara: Yeah, yeah. My, my kids were really into the Wings of Fire series, so I’ve read all of those books, and there are many, many dragons, and they all have different voices, and if I do not remember the different voice, my children will be like, “Mommy, that’s not what Peril sounds like,” and then I’ll have to remember and try again,

Jennie: so.

Take notes? Do you have, do you have a guide? Do you just remember? Um,

Barbara: no, I just, I just try and remember.

Jennie: Oh,

Barbara: my. I should take notes, but I’m not that organized. I just go off.

Jennie: That, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. Um, just while we’re talking about it, is there audio already for the new book, for, uh, Sisterhood Above All?

Barbara: There, there is. There is, yeah. Um, I recently got, uh, got a peek at it, and I am very, very excited. We have a different [00:31:00] narrator for each of the POV characters, and they are all fantastic. Super excited.

Jennie: Amazing. All right, so back to this, back to this work. Um, I thought this was great. Uh, did you, did you, how did you feel reading it?

Barbara: I, I, I enjoyed reading it. Um, when, when I was, when I was reading it the first time, I, I found myself getting stopped a few times because I felt like there were a lot of names, and I was confused. Um, you know, it’s, it’s in- I don’t feel like an author needs to spell out for me who every single character is on the first page at all.

Um, it just felt like in a small amount of time, there were a lot of names that I felt like I was trying to keep track of, and that was a bit confusing for me. Slowed me down a little bit.

Jennie: I agree with that. Actually, the first time that I read it And [00:32:00] admittedly, I was scanning these really fast the first time I read it, but there, there’s something to that, how things hit your head.

But I thought that, um, I thought Daisy was a horse because I was like the one nail that looks a little soft, like is who, what- Yeah ... where would that matter that we need to be on grass? And, and, and then I was like, “Wait, who even is Daisy?” So I got stuck on that- Yeah ... for sure. And, um, and then the, um, there’s a nickname that I think the main...

I think Corey, the, the other character calls her Skipper, so I was confused by that. Right. So it, yeah. Yeah. Are those some of the things that you mean?

Barbara: Yeah. The, those was... And I was also just a little confused when I first started reading that it starts out with person to person call for Tess, and then we’re talking about her mother.

And I, I thought at first that her mother was [00:33:00] named Tess, and that, and that the operator was trying to reach her, and that her mother was simply not, simply not wanting to talk even though she was by the phone. But then later on I realized that her mother is actually named Maria, and that Tess must be somebody else.

Um, I think Corey’s daughter, but I didn’t, I didn’t catch that on first reading. I had to read it again to be able to understand that.

Jennie: Yeah. So there, there is a lot going on for sure. When I said that I thought it was great, I- I’m, I’m hoping that this character’s some kind of trucker just because that’s cool, and, um, it, it seemed like we have some tension both in whatever’s happening around...

You know, like, they have a 24-hour man. They’re... Uh, so there’s something afoot. Like, there’s a pr- a project or something afoot that feels like it’s not gonna go well or something’s gonna [00:34:00] happen there. Um, and I also, you know, now we have the thing with the, well, we learn I think it’s the mom. But, um, th- there- Yeah

were enough elements of intrigue, like, what’s, what’s going on here, what’s gonna happen, that I... And I thought it was well-written.

Barbara: Yeah. No, and I, one of the things that I really enjoyed was the way, the, the descriptions of what the, what the scenery looks like with the, with like the weather. So like there’s, there’s the rain, um, there’s another line about how when they’re like getting into the truck that like the lot is underwater, so I’m kind of like envisioning...

I actually don’t know what time of day it is, but for some reason I’m envisioning it being a little bit darker, but that might just be because of, of the rain that’s happening. Maybe that’s what’s making me think that it’s, it’s a little bit darker outside, but I’m like envisioning the, the rain, and they’re getting into the rig.

But I, I didn’t get that she was a truck driver. I, I, I think maybe... But I, but I, [00:35:00] I don’t know. I don’t know. I thought that maybe she was some sort of- Some sort of, like, news person. But I don’t... ‘Cause I don’t actually, I don’t actually know what a 24-hour man is, so I think that might have... Okay. Yeah. No, I don’t know.

I was just like... So I, so I didn’t know. Um, but I was, I was curious to know... Yeah. I was gonna say, I was curious to know why she was making this call to her mother at this moment, and why she was so desperate for her mother to answer the phone at this moment. Um, so yeah, th- those were, those are questions that I had.

Jennie: Usually, back in the day, which this was, um, will you accept the charges was something you did when you had no money.

Barbara: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: You know, you would call home or wherever and, ‘cause you didn’t have money to make a call, so the operator would place the call and ask the [00:36:00] person to accept the charges. Mm-hmm. And normally you would do that with somebody who knows you have, you’re having a problem, or, you know.

So, like, this is a very particular moment that led me to believe that she didn’t, she didn’t even have money for a call. So- Mm-hmm ... I don’t know why I placed her as a trucker. Like, she climbed into the- Oh, okay ... the rig. She s- she sloshed her way to the lead truck. She’s fiddling with the radio station. Like, what, where we headed?

Yeah. Like, we’re just on a job. I totally made her a trucker

Barbara: and I- Yeah. No, no, no. I, well, I think maybe the reason I thought maybe she wasn’t was because there were all these other... Because, like, Top is there, and the, it’s, it’s a lead truck, and she’s, she’s getting into the passenger side. And there’s also a, a, a dog, I assume.

I assume Arlo’s a dog. I suppose it could be some other sort of animal that’s, that’s with her, but I, I assume Arlo’s a dog. Um- Well,

Jennie: so this is actually a really great [00:37:00] conversation for anybody listening, and particularly for this author. You can see that if you confuse your reader They’re gonna spend their time with these kinds of questions.

Like, is the mother Tess or is it Corey? Is this woman a trucker or not? Is... You know, and those are not the kind of questions you want to be leaving your reader with. Those are-

Barbara: Yeah ...

Jennie: um, I don’t know w- how we would describe them, almost logistics. They’re,

Barbara: they’re more like de- yeah, yeah, exactly. ‘Cause I mean, they’re, I, I, I enjoy getting a good question at the start of reading something, you know?

Like, you know, I mean, for example, it’s, it’s really interesting that Corey made what seems to be a collect call, and they didn’t just not answer it. They answered it, and then hung up on her, which feels, like, very purposeful. And so, like, I’m very, I’m very curious about that relationship. I’m curious about the fact that, that Charlie is, is dead, um, and [00:38:00] who Charlie is to the, to the narrator.

These are things that, like, have piqued my curiosity, and I would like to learn more about, um, would inspire me to read more, to learn more about those things. Uh, but then those other things that we were talking about, like, well, like, who is this? W- what kind of animal is Daisy? Like, what are, where are they actually going?

Like, what, what is, what is the goal here? What, what is the deal about the, the lot and the, and the football field? The, w- what are we gonna do here? Those are questions that, that slowed me down, and made me less likely to want to keep reading.

Jennie: Yeah. I loved that line, “But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.”

Barbara: Yeah.

Jennie: And I, I’m thinking- Really poignant ... that that’s the center of this story, you know, s- who, who was Charlie? I think you said that. Mm-hmm. Was-

Barbara: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And ‘cause she’s got the jacket.

Barbara: Yeah.

Jennie: She’s got Charlie’s jacket, so- That, that’s

Barbara: true, and sh- and she’s wearing it, I think. [00:39:00]

Jennie: Yeah, and, and so- I mean, I suppose Charlie could be a child if this person is older.

Barbara: Yeah.

Jennie: Like, you know, um, but y- I ... So I had this weird reaction to this, which is I thought it was fun, and maybe that was you reading it. I thought, I thought the writing was great, but I wouldn’t turn the page. I’d be frustrated. You know, if, if there was another book or another story that was, um, didn’t make me work so hard- Mm

to figure out where I was or what was happening, I would choose that over this. So it’s a weird combination for me of great job, but it’s a no for me.

Barbara: Yeah,

Jennie: that- What about you?

Barbara: That’s, that’s how I felt. There, there were a lot of elements here that I think are, that are intriguing and that if presented slightly differently would make me want to turn the page.

But as, as it is right now, I, I would not. [00:40:00]

Jennie: I agree with that. I think it feels close. Mm-hmm. Um, so how could we give this person some direction for, um- Yeah ... well, you talked about all the names, and I don’t think the solution is ID all these names.

Barbara: Right.

Jennie: Mm-hmm. That’s gonna be clunky. Or ID all these people. Um-

Barbara: Yeah.

I, I think for, for me personally, what I think would help was if we were to get a bit more of a peek inside the nar- inside Corey’s head, so we could understand from her perspective why it’s important that she’s making this call, like, what the goal is with the truck. Um, if we just saw it a little bit more from her view and got to know a little bit more of the information that she already holds in her head, I think that would go a long way to making the story feel more accessible to the reader.

Jennie: That’s really well said, and [00:41:00] hopefully that helps the writer for your next pass to, to think about. But I- there’s something, there’s something good I think here going on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I have the same, um, comment that I had earlier. I, I wanna know what kind of story I’m in, and I’m s- and I’m not sure. We were talking about sorting out these relationships and what’s happening with the field and the truck and then the weather and all that, but again, is this

There’s no sense of what kind of story this is going to be. And, um, I, I always want a little more. And, and the title is Empty Spaces, which doesn’t help, um- Yeah ... point us to that. I hear that. So just a little more, um, of a sense of what world are we? What, what problem do we have? What world are we in? Um, you know, and even just that last bit where the character turns the radio station on and yawns, “Where are we headed [00:42:00] tonight?”

It- there’s, there’s not an urgency of It’s, s- nobody’s running from anything. There’s no- Right ... threat, uh,

except for the mom who won’t answer the call.

Barbara: Yeah, yeah.

Jennie: Yeah. Um, so a little, a little more of a sense of what’s at stake. Um, I know, we always are asking so much on a first page, but- I know ...

Barbara: uh. I know, but e- you know, it’s, there are so many things to read, you know, from, like agents, editors, readers, all have so many things to choose from, and so it’s just so important to nail that first page, you know?

Jennie: How many times do you rewrite your first pages?

Barbara: Oh my gosh, so many times. So many times. Yeah. Yeah, well, um, ‘cause usually I write the first page, and then I write the rest of the book, and then I’m like, “Oh, like, the rest of the book does something different. I need to go back and, like, make this first page...”

Also, I do, I often do the thing that I think a lot of writers do, which is, [00:43:00] once you’ve written a little bit further, you realize that, like, you’ve started at the wrong spot. Um, I mean, the, one of, one of the things that helps me when I, when I think to do it is to use one of the exercises that’s in, that’s in your work, where you, where you start what, you, you write the beginning and the ending before you even start anything.

Um, and I, I, when I remember to do that the right way, that really, definitely helps me. Um, but I don’t always remember to do that, and so I have, like, partway in, and then I’m like, “Wait, no, the first page.” So,

Jennie: it’s- Well, that, yeah, that’s a, um, a step in the blueprint for a book book. Um, it’s a good one, for sure.

Uh, well, thank you so much for joining me for, for this, Kathleen, and congratulations on the new book. Um, for everyone listening, go check out, you can find everything at KathleenBarber.com. And, um, you can find Sisterhood Above All, which is brand new and just out and sounds like so much [00:44:00] fun. I, it’s on my TBR, TBR.

Yay. I just can’t read, I just can’t read thrillers at night. I get too scared. So,

Barbara: um-

Jennie: That’s

Barbara: fair. That’s fair ...

Jennie: I, I have to wait till I’m, like, on a plane or, um, you know, somewhere where I’m reading during the day. Yeah. Is this one, is this one l- scary scary?

Barbara: I mean, it’s, it’s not, like, scary scary. It’s, it’s not, like, uh- It’s, it’s not like there’s someone who’s out there to kill you for reasons that you cannot control.

You know what I mean? Like, it’s like- Yeah, yeah ... it would be scary to the people inside the book, but it should not be scary to you. But

Jennie: I understand how- Well, we don’t need to reas- We don’t need to reassure me because people love these, love these- Yeah ... and, uh, what a fun, fun setting and setup for- Thank you

a thriller. It’s, it’s exciting. Thanks. So can’t wait to see how, how the world receives it. And- Mm ... um, I always hate to say this to somebody whose book just came out, but can’t wait to see what you do next. [00:45:00]

Barbara: Don’t worry, I’m already writing

Jennie: stuff. Oh, yeah. Do you, ooh, do you wanna, do you wanna tell or no?

Barbara: I, I do not, just ‘cause I get really superstitious about it, but, um, but I have something that I’m working on that I’m excited about, so you know, we’ll see how it goes.

Jennie: I love it. Well, thank you for joining us for Book Life, Jennifer.

Barbara: Thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun.

Jennie: For our listeners, let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.

Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:46:00] work

Jennie Nash hosts a hot seat coaching episode with #amwriting producer Andrew Perrella, who shares a 5,000-word draft of his Gothic vampire novel to be offered to paid subscribers. Jennie praises the draft as unusually strong and “authoritative,” then coaches Andrew on higher-level editorial concerns: pacing, density of information before the action, and adding more interiority so readers understand Abrianna’s reactions and risk-taking, especially her choice to follow a vampire into an alley.

They discuss the funeral setting, the presence of major characters (including an executor and Seward), and the theme that multiple people are watching Abrianna while the reader lacks key knowledge (including that the vampire is her mother). Jennie recommends using and updating the blueprint as a living “as-is” outline to track reveals, and they set a four-week deadline for Andrew to deliver 50 pages plus the blueprint.

I knew we’d get a huge response to our callout for first page submissions for a BookLab with Jo Piazza and I was right. I zipped through the google doc, skimming (there is a particular art to choosing the right submissions without ruining the freshness for me when I read and respond) and I did brilliantly, if I do say so myself (including a very funny callback to our sudden Dr. Pepper digression). Listen for our constructive takes on these 3 first pages and some excellent advice on the art of the first page in general.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

The first line of Jo’s current hit, The Parisian Heist: It’s terrible to be rich.

Don’t you want more?

Jo’s the creator of Under the Influence (the podcast) and Over the Influence (the Substack) and the national and international bestselling author of The Sicilian Inheritance, Everyone is Lying to You (KJ’s fave!), We Are Not Like Them, You Were Always Mine, Charlotte Walsh Likes to Win, The Knockoff (KJ’s other fave!) and How to Be Married but most importantly, her current book, The Parisian Heist, is just out and great for readers and writers alike.

Ready to submit your first page for consideration for a future episode of BookLab? That’s a supporter benefit, link below, below the paywall.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

More about The Parisian Heist:

Emma, a struggling American artist in Paris, thought she had left her dreams behind when she took a job cleaning for the city’s wealthy elite. Then she meets Stella Swanson, the widow of one of the most notorious art dealers in the business. The Swansons move in a world where billionaires, oligarchs, and heads of state pay fortunes for masterpieces. Drawn in by their dazzling wealth and the pull of a dangerously charming grandson, Emma becomes both a player and a pawn in a family battle to protect their empire and conceal its crimes.

In the late 1800s, the young widow Jo van Gogh inherits hundreds of paintings from her brother-in-law Vincent that the art world deems worthless. Determined to prove their genius, and to secure a future for herself and her young son, she becomes consumed by Vincent’s legacy. As her devotion deepens, a vanished painting and a thwarted love affair leave her unsure who she can trust and how much of herself she’s willing to lose in the process.

From glittering auction houses to the idyllic canals of Amsterdam and the grand museums of Paris, the lives of these two women converge as Emma uncovers the Swanson family’s darkest secrets and agrees to mastermind a daring heist inside the Musée d’Orsay. The stakes have never been higher, and these women refuse to be written out of history, no matter the cost.

On the #amwriting podcast’s Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Caroline Bicks, Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine and co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, about her book Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Bicks describes how she became the first invited into King’s Bangor archives after King called to meet her, and how her sabbatical became a year of researching five formative works (including Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem’s Lot, and Pet Sematary) to understand how horror language creates lasting fear.

She explains choosing a first-person narrative that blends literary criticism, archival discovery, and her own anxiety, including eerie moments in the archive and insights into King’s word-level edits, literary influences, and Shakespearean foundations, especially The Shining’s ties to Hamlet.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Read the Book

* Monsters in the Archives by Caroline Bicks

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Welcome, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we’re talking about the big decisions writers face in their work and creative lives.

I’m here today with a super special guest. I’m so excited to speak with Caroline Bicks. She is the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature at the University of Maine, where she teaches courses in Shakespeare, early modern culture, and horror fiction. And she’s the author of all kinds of very cool books ... about Shakespeare, including one on cocktails.

Um, and, uh, is the co-host of the Everyday Shakespeare podcast, and we are here today to talk with her about her new book called [00:01:00] Monsters in the Archives: A Year of Fear with Stephen King. Welcome.

Caroline: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jennie: So this is gonna be the strangest interview you’ve probably ever done. I

Caroline: don’t know.

Because- I’ve talked to a lot of people around the world about this Stephen King book.

Jennie: I couldn’t read your book. I, I couldn’t read it. I can’t read horror. Yeah. Which listeners of this podcast are gonna laugh about, ‘cause I’m actually coaching someone live and they’re writing gothic horror, and they’re probably like, “All you talk about is horror, Jennie.”

But, um, it’s actually the reason why I wanted to talk to you, because you made a decision in the writing of this book that I thought was super cool. Mm. Which was you put yourself in it.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And you’re a scholar.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And you’ve written scholarly books, and you approach this with a scholarly perspective, but you, you really put yourself in it.

And, and so [00:02:00] I was reading it for that part of the story and I had to skip over huge chunks of, of the, of the work. Because what you’re doing in this book is you’re getting at this question of- W- what, what is scary in writing? Like, how does it actually work? How does it act- what is the magic or the function that makes us feel this thing?

And you actually feel it yourself while you’re going through it, and I found it quite terrifying actually. So, um, that’s kinda what I wanted to talk about is how did you make the decision? Well, first of all, you were the first person, I wanna make sure I get this right, ‘cause this is very cool. Yeah. You were the first person who was invited to the archives, the Stephen King archives.

Caroline: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s a bit of a story, so I won’t spend too much time on it, but just the mo- Oh, no, do. It’s good ... when I ch- when I took this position... So I’ve been a Shakespeare professor my whole adult life, ba- as soon as I graduated from grad school in the late ‘90s, [00:03:00] and I was at Boston College for 15 years.

I took this position at University of Maine nine years ago as a Shakespearean. Um, so it is an endowed chair in Stephen King’s name because he’s our most famous alum. So when I took the position, I, it was because I’m a Shakespearean, not because I’m a horror specialist. Um, I had always been a Stephen King fan since I read him when I was 12, and he scared the beje- Jesus out of me, um, with The Boogeyman story.

Jennie: Right.

Caroline: Um, so when I took this position though I was told, “You’re never gonna meet Stephen King. Don’t even make contact with him.” I’m like, “Fine, you know, this is still a great job. I’m excited.” Um- Thanks

Jennie: for the money. Yeah.

Caroline: Thanks for... You know, no, it’s a wonderful fund. It was funded by the Harold Alfond Foundation, and it’s to support the public humanities, which is an incredible mission.

So, um, I get to give money away to people. You know, it’s a great, great position, but I was not a horror specialist. And particu- a- and as an adult, I actually wasn’t reading horror because it scares me too much. You know? Yeah, yeah. Um, but it had grabbed me when I was a teenager. So it was about four years into the [00:04:00] job when I got a call at home from Stephen King, which just, uh, uh, my jaw hit the floor.

And he said, “You know, I think it’s time we meet.” I’m like, you know, I, I really fan-girled because I really, I have so much admiration for him and respect. Um, I invited him to come talk to our students. He was brilliant, generous, funny, kind, and I felt so at ease that I felt like I could ask... You know, and I got to know him professionally.

We had a good professional relationship that developed from there. When I had a sabbatical year coming up the next year- I could have written another Shakespeare book. I had another one in my head. I’ve written a bunch of them but I knew that he and Tabitha had just collected all of his manuscripts and put them in a climate-controlled space attached to their home in Bangor, and I thought, “You know, this is an incredible opportunity.

I would love to dig in there and be the first one in there, and just read those early drafts of the books that scared me so much when I was a teenager, and try to just explore why. Why were they sticking in my head still?” Um, again, I am not a specialist in... I’m not a cognitive scientist. I’m not a [00:05:00] specialist in horror literature, but I’m obviously highly trained in how to do literary analysis and how to do archival work, not Shakespeare, because we don’t have any of his works, but, you know, I, I understand what that process is.

So back to your question about why I wanted to bring myself into it, which was, you know, I had been experimenting with first-person storytelling after I got tenure. You know, ‘cause it’s a long process, Kate. Right. And most of my writing had been academic writing, but I really had always loved storytelling And I got a piece into the Modern Love column.

I started to have some success with publishing my first-person stories, and I was like, “You know, I love this.” So when I had this opportunity to go into his archives, they generously said yes, was amazing. I thought, “You know, I really wanna tell this story. I don’t wanna write an academic book. I want this to be the story of a literature scholar, but really the story about a scared kid.”

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: You know, you, you never lose that scare, you know, I don’t... This is the thing. Fear has stuck with me with those stories [00:06:00] for 40 years. So I was fascinated, and I just wanted to understand how he had crafted the language so that it was sticking in my head still. Because when I was talking to people around, you know, whenever you mention Stephen King to people, you know, if they’ve read him, they remember specific lines and specific words, and I was like, “That’s an extraordinary, um, 50 years on to have that power.”

So, um- Well- Anyway. Yeah. Go ahead. I, I could talk about this forever, so you tell me- Oh, no, it’s- ... where you wanted to pick up from this.

Jennie: It’s so good. Well, I have to tell you this funny anecdote, which is that my college roommate was from Bangor, Maine, and babysat his kids in that house.

Caroline: Oh, that’s insane.

Jennie: So when I went to visit her, she drove me by that house.

There you go. And I was like, “Oh, hell no- Yeah ... would I ever babysit in that house.” Like, it’s-

Caroline: It’s ‘cause it’s like a gothic, it’s like straight out of Haunting of Hill House ...

Jennie: actually, and like these spiderweb gates that, and you describe that in the [00:07:00] book and, and the- Yeah ... archives are in that house. They’re

Caroline: in the house.

They’re attached to the back. I know. And it, it was so, it was, it was insane. It was like a full-on 360 experience writing this book. Um, and I, I knew, like, so I did the research for a year. I didn’t even know if this would be a book. I just knew I wanted to have the opportunity to be in there because it, I knew it was a great opportunity, and I was so curious, you know?

Yeah. So I, I came out of the year with just tons of notes and observations, but I didn’t have a book, you know? Yeah. And then I started experimenting with writing a chapter, and I just, the storytelling just came forward and then when I got an agent and she, you know, s- I, I, I was able to get a contract based on a proposal and that one chapter I had written and I was really fortunate to have a fabulous editor, David Ebershoff, at Hogarth, who is just such a wonderful writer himself, and he really encouraged me to bring my voice in and bring my story in even [00:08:00] more.

Um, so that’s- And- ... that’s the story of that.

Jennie: Was it hard for you as a scholar to do that?

Caroline: You know what? It was so freeing and so fun that it actually wasn’t, you know? Because I, I knew this wasn’t going to be an academic book, so once I let go of that- Yeah ... um, I was like, wow, I have the, and yet I have this skill set I can bring forward, and I knew that’s what would make this unique.

Um, but I can combine my two favorite ways of writing, ‘cause I do actually love writing literary criticism. Like it’s, I get a thrill out of it. I wouldn’t be doing it this long if I didn’t get a thrill out of it, but I also love telling my own stories and drawing a reader in. And so for me it was like just a circus carnival.

Like it was so fun to be able to do it. Once I had the permission and I had a contract, I was like, fine, you know? I, I, who am I writing this book for? I’m writing it for me, you know? Like this is just something I wanna do because I’m so passionate [00:09:00] about it and I, and I love Stephen King. And, um, once I got into it that way and wasn’t thinking about who’s gonna criticize me for this, like how will academics view this, I was like, I don’t care.

I just don’t care. I know I’ve got a great story to tell that people are gonna love to read because there’s so many people that love not just Stephen King, but people who love reading about how great books get written, you know? Yeah. And so that was the audience I had in my mind when I, when I was crafting it.

It was really, in my mind, anybody who cares about books and writing. It doesn’t have to be... So when you say, you’re not the first person who’s said to me, “I can’t read your book,” or, “I can’t read-” Oh, I’m so glad. “... Stephen King books,” you know, and I’m like, “That’s okay. You can skip, you know, the parts that really scare you,” because there’s plenty about just like that first chapter I wrote about Pet Sematary, just his sticky notes back and forth with his copy editor, which is so fun I think.

You know, it’s just like, wow.

Jennie: Totally. Yeah. But the thing that you do is you- Allow yourself to confront that fear-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: [00:10:00] that, that I feel that the people can’t, that can’t read horror feel. You know, anybody that even allows themselves to be scared feels. And-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: and you, you do some very specific things, um, which I, I found fascinating, including tracking down on eBay the original copy of that book you read as a- Yeah, I wanted-

as a teenager.

Caroline: Yeah, that was part of the process for me, was I wanted to make sure I was reading... So before I would go into the archives for each work, and I’d spent like two... I only picked five, because I wanted to... First of all, I knew I wanted to make this personal. Um, and those were the five that scared me the most when I was a teenager.

So I grew up in the ‘70s and the ‘80s as a teenager, so for me, it was in real time when the books were coming out practically. So it was- Yeah ... Carrie, Night Shift, The Shining, Salem’s Lot, Pet Sematary. Um, I’m forgetting one of course. Uh, but I went -

Jennie: The other one.

Caroline: The other one. Had a huge impact on me. [00:11:00] So it was those five, and I, I knew those were the ones I was gonna do a deep dive into, and that I wanted to really re-engage with, and bring my whole self to.

So I wanted to find the copies that I had read in the ‘70s and the early ‘80s. And fortunately, it’s pretty easy to find them. Uh, so yeah, but eBay sometimes I had to go on, or go into a used bookstore and, you know, find the like actual 1979 paperback, you know.

Jennie: Um- I mean, that- Um ... I just, there’s some, there’s so much to say about that because-

Caroline: Yeah

Jennie: like, I just, um- We, we just had a new bookcase built, um, which is something I’ve wanted to do well for eight years in this house. But it’s a thing I’ve always wanted to have, which is like a grand bookcase, and it just was finished last week, and we had all the books packed up in storage, and we brought all the books back.

Then we went through this discernment process of what goes [00:12:00] on those shelves. And I, you know, I had all those books from when I was a kid, even when I was a kid-kid, and they’re yellow, and moldy and falling apart, and the covers aren’t on, and they’re taped and-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: eh, but I cannot let them go-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: because those...

that was the object.

Caroline: That’s the object. This is what I feel sad for kids now, because they’re not gonna have those same memories, um, of books. Yes. You know? And I don’t think they stick in your head the same way if you don’t have the full sensory embodied experience with a book.

Jennie: Right. You know? Even when you open...

I read on Kindle, which I love for so many reasons. Yeah. But you don’t even see the cover.

Caroline: You don’t see the cover, right. And for me, it’s so much. Like, I remember going to the Scholastic Book Fair and being like- Yes ... “I’m getting Summer of My German S- Soldier because Christy McNichol’s on the cover,” you know?

Yes. Yes. So yeah, that was part of the journey for me was I did wanna just [00:13:00] reconnect with those books again, try to h- and as much as you can, you know, reexperience the feelings of f- like The Shining, I actually... the only one I still have from 1977 is the actual Shining that I read. Um, and that’s, for me, that woman in room 217.

Well, I know you haven’t read it ‘cause you’re probably... What? But, um, it, that particular one I still have from, from when I was growing up. Um, and I love that I still have it, and it still has the photo... You know, it’s the version that has the photo inserts that includes the Kubrick film photos. Oh, okay.

Jennie: Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Caroline: And I read it before I saw the film, so I remember being- 15 reading it and then seeing the pictures and being like you know? And that’s part of the experience, but it wasn’t, it’s different than seeing the film, you know? And I really, I wanted to write this book as a love letter to language and to books, and not to film.

Like, there’s, that’s a whole other category I think that enters people’s brains in totally different ways. It’s a very different experience. For me it’s about, like going back to your original question [00:14:00] about like why, why, why do stories cause fear, and like what’s the value perhaps in that? Yeah. That was something I came to after this long journey really, and talking to people and thinking about why.

And also by understanding and reading more about Stephen King’s books and talking to him about them, and realizing for him how much these stories are rooted in personal experiences or fears of grief and loss. And- Yes ... that was really profound for me. And like The Night Shift, which is the ur-text that I start with, ‘cause that’s the one I read when I was 12, and that’s his first collection of short stories.

It came out in 1978. It’s 20 short stories. But he ends it with a story about his mother dying, and it’s, I mean, it’s thinly veiled autobiography. It’s about a man who’s watching his mother die in the hospital. Um, but it’s clearly a mirror of his own experience losing his mother when he was 26. And I’m like, wow, what’s that doing in a collection of horror stories?

[00:15:00] And it’s like, what? ‘Cause that is of course, at least for me and I think for a lot of people, that’s the core fear we first have, is that where’s mommy, right? Yeah. Right? You lose the person who’s in charge of taking care of you, and if you’re lucky, does it well and with care. Um, but even if it’s not, like Carrie, you know, the more I was looking through the Carrie drafts, I was like, right, he’s really homing in on Carrie calling out for her mother even though her mother’s terrible and abusive to her, right?

So it’s, there’s just this, I don’t know. It’s a long way around to say I think horror, and he writes about this really eloquently, is a way for us to metabolize our deepest fears. Um, and to look at trauma not head-on but sideways. Um, and he writes about that, um, a number of different places in a really powerful way.

He’s just such an extraordinary human. You know, he’s been thinking about this and for so long.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. So, so your willingness to [00:16:00] confront that, those particular fear, fears in your own self and on behalf of the reader, really puts you in it. I mean, like you, there’s a really lovely moment where you are reading I think it’s, I think it’s Pet Sematary, reading the actual book, and you have to turn it over so you- Yeah

don’t see, like on your nightstand so you don’t see the cover. I’m

Caroline: scared, I’m scared of the cover, right, still.

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And then there’s moments, se- several where you’re driving And you’re sort of holding your breath while you drive past a place that he writes about or, or- Mm-hmm ... you know, um, well you have to tell the story, I’m sure every interviewer asks you about the, um, the doorknob in the archive.

You have to, like, I was-

Caroline: Yeah, not too many people have asked me about that, but I’m like, that to me was the scary moment-

Jennie: Wait, shut up ... the most, the

Caroline: most sturdy. I’m like, wh- uh, why did that happen? But of course, I mean, there’s a reason why it happened. It’s, it’s, it [00:17:00] automatically locks if, you know, the, if you- Okay

don’t lock it So let’s, let’s play- So but it just happened that we were inside the archive room. It was me and, and Julie Ugli, who is their assistant, who was helping me through this whole process. And I know, and I was, like, literally holding the first page of the first draft of The Boogeyman, the story that had scared me so badly when I was 12, about a monster that comes out of closets, and we’re like in this room.

And the, the archive room, it actually, it almost feels like a closet. It’s not huge at all. You know, it’s just-

Jennie: Yeah ...

Caroline: top to bottom, ceiling to floor stacked shelving with, you know, boxes of materials. And yeah, and we were in there, and I’m holding the first page, and the lock closes on its own. It just goes...

And I’m like, I’m looking at Julie, I’m like, “What is, what’s happening?” We don’t have our cell phones with us. I’m like, “Are we stuck in here? Like, what’s gonna happen?”

Jennie: In the scary archive- In this, I was terrified ... in the back of the scary house. Like-

Caroline: I know, I know. It was like, you can’t make this stuff up.

That’s why I was like, I [00:18:00] couldn’t wait, when I finally got a chance to write the book and sit down and write, I was like, I can’t wait to tell these stories, because they just... I, I’m not a fiction writer. Like, I, I have such mad respect for- I don’t know about that ... well, I’ve m- We’ll see I don’t know. I have mad respect for people who can write fiction.

For me, I only can write what I know and exper- So I’m like, ah. But these stories were just so amazing. Or like when I was reading The Shining, like the first draft of The Shining, which is crazy. I mean, it’s so different from the published version. And like getting to the woman in room 217, and like reading th- and literally my head w- like I thought I was having a stroke.

Like it was like, like... And it’s like, and then I find an interview where Stephen King writes about how he was scared to go back to that scene when he was revising it, the book, because he was dreading it. And I was like, oh, my God, have I just like had some kind of telepathic experience with Stephen King?

Like- Right ... across time, space, and yeah, it was amazing.

Jennie: Well, yeah. I mean, [00:19:00] it’s just, um, uh, I actually made myself go through the whole book skipping giant chunks.

Caroline: I feel so badly I put you through this.

Jennie: I know. I, I feel like why, I kept saying, “Why? Why did I think this was a good idea?” Um, and it- I mean, even just tangentially, I, I don’t know.

It’s interesting. I have, I’m sure you have this too, anybody who reads a lot or spends a lot of time with words, you have a capacity to sort of pay half attention, if that makes sense.

Caroline: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Um, like you c- could sort of look at it without letting it all the way in. Yeah. But I, I just was, I just was riveted by the thread of, of your story and your putting yourself through that as a scholar and a human.

But, but then some really cool things happen, and I, and I have flagged, um... Do you, [00:20:00] w- would you mind reading a tiny piece? It’s- No, not at all ... it’s on page 82, and it’s the p- the paragraph that starts, “These manuscripts.”

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: That would be amazing.

Caroline: Absolutely. So this is actually the moment I just described to you, where my head was like, I got...

Oh, actually, I had just discovered the last 150 pages of the original Shining manuscript in a random folder in the archives, and I was like, “What is this doing here?” And I was getting obsessive about the manuscripts at this point, clearly- Yeah. Yeah ... just like the main character in The Shining, Jack Torrance, who gets obsessed with the manu- with the papers in the basement of the Overlook Hotel.

But here we go. “These manuscripts are definitely getting into my head, and not just its rational part. In his memoir, when King describes books as being a uniquely portable magic, he doesn’t specify what kind of magic. What if manuscripts can absorb and store more than just ink and words? [00:21:00] What if their pages can pass on dark energy along with dark stories?

Ghosts have more than one way of making sure their stories are heard, of ensuring that the past is not forgotten, but rather pressed into our minds, even if we wrench our heads off the pillow and refuse to listen.” And that last is a reference to my, I used to see a ghost when I was five, and I write about that in the book too.

Jennie: I mean, when I read that, I was like, “That’s, that’s me.” Like, these ghosts and horrors are pressing themselves into my mind, and I’m refusing to listen, and they still, they still do. And, um, King’s stories in particular are so iconic, you can’t really escape them. Like, you, you know the scenarios, you know the characters, you know-

Caroline: Yeah

Jennie: you know. And, and so it was interesting for me reading this book that that described my [00:22:00] experience where I was both repelled and magnetized at the same time.

Caroline: That’s beautiful the way you just put that. I mean, I think that is exactly our relationship also, of course, to our own fears. You know, again, what makes these stories endure, and I didn’t go into this book thinking like, “This is a book about promoting Stephen King,” and, you know- Right

like, I don’t work for Stephen King. I just want to put that out there. Right. He, you know, he graciously agreed to let me go into the archives. He’s been very generous about answering all my questions I had about the manuscripts, but he never at any point was like, “You can’t say this,” or, “This is how you’re supposed to say this.”

So, but what I came away with after this process was exactly what you’re describing, why we need these stories, why they endure, actually, is because they tap into our very real human fears. It’s not about the monsters. It’s about the grief and loss that’s coming for all of us if we live long enough, you know?

So you, and you have to at some point confront that, you know? So if it’s- Yeah ... you can [00:23:00] try to run away from it, but it’s coming, and that’s part of being human. That’s the human experience, obviously. Not to be glib, but it’s like-

Jennie: Yeah ...

Caroline: you will experience loss. You will experience grief. And if these stories help you metabolize that or have a cathartic experience with that feeling without having to actually experience your worst fear, right?

Um, like Aristotle says, it’s cathartic, right? It’s you watch a play, a, a tragedy because you experience a catharsis.

Jennie: And did you, did you get to that in your own process?

Caroline: That’s a really good question. Um- You know, I, I think I became more aware of it. You know, I am, you know, and I write about this very openly in the book, that I was an extremely anxious little kid, um, which is part of why I think the boogeyman triggered me in the particular way it did, you know.

Um, and that I grew into a pretty [00:24:00] anxious adult, you know? Yeah. I think anxiety is one of those things that, you know, I... Again, I was born in the ‘60s, so we didn’t have this language for this back then. Like, my parents wouldn’t have known to call me an anxious child, you know? Right. They probably would’ve said, “Oh, she’s shy,” or, “She’s whatever.”

Um, so I think I, you know, like, and I as an adult, I think I’ve, I’ve found ways to manage it pretty well, but I am definitely a control freak. Like, that’s part of how I manage it. I shouldn’t use that language, but you know, it’s like I, I like to just control what I can control, and that makes me feel that I can put the anxiety at bay.

So I will say I think it’s been interesting for me, Nick, now when I have those moments that are my worst fear moments that sometimes still will creep up on me just even though when I think I’ve figured it out, like doom s- doom scenarios. I tend to go to doom scenarios. So, like, if I can’t reach... Uh, I will say Life360 has been, like, the best invention on the planet for me-

with my two kids [00:25:00] and my husband. I’m like, “I know exactly where everyone is.” Yeah. It has saved me a lot of worry. Sometimes Life360 doesn’t work, or sometimes a person still doesn’t answer the phone, and then I have to manage my anxie- And then it’s like... So I will say it’s been interesting going through this process and having to confront or revisit the core of what scares me and, like, why that impacts, you know, why certain moments come forward for me still.

So I think, yeah, I think it has helped me to a degree. Like, I can recognize it more clearly now. I’m like, “Oh, right, that’s why I’m scared of that,” you know? Um-

Jennie: That’s so cool.

Caroline: Yeah.

Jennie: And it feels like that’s the, the, um, the transformation in the book is you’re exploring how that actually works and the language and the stories.

Mm-hmm. But you’re, you’re also exploring how it works in your own self, how it did when you were young, how it does now- Yeah ... these moments when you’re scared. So it- Mm-hmm ... there’s such [00:26:00] a depth to it and, I mean, I just, uh, even in my half reading of it, I just loved it. Thank you. And, um, there’s something that happens That’s kind of crazy, which is, so you’re a Shakespeare scholar

Caroline: Mm-hmm

Jennie: And I ha- I, I know from reading Steve, a- about Stephen King, from reading his book On Writing, of course, and, um, interviews and such that, uh, I’m, I’m probably gonna say this in a disrespectful way, and I don’t mean it to be so, but the, the easiest way I can describe it is that he’s always had sort of a chip on his shoulder that he’s just a popular writer and not taken seriously in a literary way.

Mm. I don’t know if that’s, if that is fair to say, but that’s how I’m saying it. Uh,

Caroline: yeah.

Jennie: And, um, what, what I found incredible was that [00:27:00] here comes this Shakespeare scholar into his archives doing proper scholarly archiver, arch- archival work, and there’s this moment when you begin to see Shakespearean themes in his, in his work, and you can’t ignore it, and particularly in, in Carrie and- Yeah

particularly around exactly the thing you were wrestling with, which is like a young girl’s- I don’t know, sense of, of not being fitting in the world or, um-

Caroline: Yeah ...

Jennie: right? And so that, um, there’s, on page, since you have the book in your hand, um, I think it’s page

Caroline: 202. Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And it refers back to that passage you just read about portable magic.

It’s the one that’s I remembered.

Caroline: [00:28:00] Right. Okay. So this is going back to when I first was, um, I was in the final round of the job for the Stephen E. King Chair in Literature, and I was working on a book about Shakespeare’s, the girls in Shakespeare’s plays and world and teenage girls and their cognition.

Like, the how were people during Shakespeare’s day thinking about girls’ brains? Yeah. So I’d been working on this for 10 years. Um, and then I was getting ready to give my job talk. This was the first time Stephen King and Shakespeare came together for me, and it was getting ready, and this, again, this is an authentic story, like write what you know.

So I was getting ready for the job talk. I remembered that King’s 1974 novel, Carrie, featured a 16-year-old girl whose telekinetic powers are unleashed when she gets her first period in the school shower. I started rereading it, and within a few pages came across an uncanny phrase. When she’s walking home after being dismissed early, Carrie feels her brain flexing in a new way, [00:29:00] as if her powers have been waiting below the surface for her to reach, quote, “mental puberty.”

I couldn’t have wordsmithed this dynamic cognitive change better myself. In the last part of my job talk, I used the phrase to connect the brain work of Juliet Capulet, who’s described as being two weeks away from seeing the change of 14 years, to Carrie’s newly activated adolescent mind. It felt like a moment of pure portable magic between Stephen King, Shakespeare, and me.

Jennie: Ugh, so beautiful.

Caroline: Oh, thank you. Yeah. I mean, that was just so gobsmacking. Like, when that happened, I was like, I ca- I can’t believe it, but yeah.

Jennie: And then, now I may be getting some of the things wrong here, but then you- You realize, is it Carrie that, that you realize he was, you thought he was emulating a play, a Shakespeare play?

Caroline: I think you’re thinking of Shining. I mean, definitely at the end of the Carrie [00:30:00] chapter I return to, I did notice echoes of Macbeth, and I was convinced that that must have been what he was thinking about. And, and what’s funny is, so one of the conversations I got to have with him, I mean, he’s so generous with his time, one of my last conversations with him was about the end of Carrie, and that’s a book that he actually doesn’t like very much.

You know, it was his first published novel, he was 26, and he’s like, “I think that was written by a young man who thought he knew more than he did.” So he’s, it’s not a book that he goes back to. He recognizes it’s important, and it’s important to him, but, ‘cause it started his whole career, his whole trajectory.

Um, but he didn’t particularly, he hasn’t returned to it. Yeah. So that was a fun chance for me to sort of talk to him and say, “Hey, you know what? I think you should maybe go back,” ‘cause it’s it’s, there’s a lot of Shakespeare in there. Anyway, but the Shining chapter, what was fascinating, so there’s this first draft, which I, I write a lot about, called The Shine, that’s in the archives, with a totally different ending.

Um, and when I looked at it, [00:31:00] he’d also divided it into acts and scenes, like Roman numeral acts and little- Mm ... Roman numeral scenes. And I was like, “This, what is this? This is like a Shakespeare play.” Like, that’s what it looked like. And then sure enough, I found out he was imagining, he was thinking of a Shakespeare tragedy when he wrote The Shining.

And that was the first moment where I was like, “What? This is insane.” Like, this- Yeah ... like, ob- obviously that became, for me, the story I wanted to tell about that particular set of manuscripts, was sort of uncovering, like, what’s the Shakespeare play? Like, what’s the tragedy? And I didn’t wanna ask him because I didn’t want- I wanted to go in with my mind clear, like, of any outside influence.

I just wanted to see what my Shakespeare brain, because I’m so embedded in Shakespeare. I also have a Shakespeare podcast I do with my best friend. Like, we’re, I’m always thinking about Shakespeare and how it relates to everyday life. You know, and so I’m like, “Well, how does it relate to The Shining?” Which is, like, an ur-American text.

Like, this, like, say what you want about horror, [00:32:00] like- I’d be shocked if people don’t know what The Shining’s about, even if they haven’t read it even if they haven’t seen the film. Like, you probably know something about The Shining, right? Right. So I was like, if there’s a Shakespeare tragedy at the foundation of this, you know.

And here’s the thing about Stephen King that I came to learn, again, reading all of his notes and finding these edits, and I did find traces of Macbeth in the first draft of The Shine, um, that he ended up taking out. So I was like, “Oh, is it Macbeth? It feels like it could be Macbeth.” There’s so many things it has in common with it, with hallucinations and with baby bashing.

And, you know, all of these horrible things that are in Macbeth are certainly in that book. Um, but I really wanted to go in, like, just on an adventure, like, see what I saw. So I didn’t ask him which chi- tragedy until I was fully done with all my research and I felt like I had it all done. And that’s when he drops that he was thinking of Hamlet.

And once he said that, of course, it became so ... I mean, I [00:33:00] had seen traces, there were references to Ophelia that also didn’t make it into the final published draft. So you wouldn’t know this. This is the beauty of archival work, like you’re gonna see things that other people will never know about unless you tell the story.

That’s why I felt so passionate about this. Like, “I need to tell people-” Yeah ... “that Ophelia was in the first draft, that he was thinking of Ophelia.” ‘Cause of course, you know, again, even if you don’t know The Shining, the woman in the tub, the woman in the bathtub, like a drowned woman in a tub, like ah, Ophelia.

Yeah. Like Ophelia’s another one of those ur, like she’s so, she’s such a part of our cultural air, right? I mean, like no matter what country you’re in. Right. There’s a reason Taylor Swift has a whole, you know, song The Fate of Ophelia. Like people know what that means. Um, so I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is, this is incredible.

This is even deeper than I thought it was gonna be.” Um, but also it made me appreciate how much that book is about intergenerational trauma. Um, and it’s not ... So he doesn’t like the Kubrick film [00:34:00] for reasons that, you know, a couple different reasons. One is that it flattens out the character of Jack Torrance, and Jack Torrance is an abused child himself, and he passes on that abuse to his son, Danny, right?

Um, but you wouldn’t know that from Kubrick’s film. While Hamlet, of course, is about a father’s ghost coming forward. Like, “The past is a ghost,” King writes, which is so f- powerful, right? Um, here’s this ghost saying, “You need to kill for me.”

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Yeah. And that’s what happens to Jack. Yeah, so anyway, that’s a long way to say that was

Each chapter was my favorite in different ways, but that one I loved being able to do the deep Shakespeare dive.

Jennie: And was that ... You know, so I started that question by saying I, I had heard or understood or maybe inferred that, um, you know, King himself had this sort of desire- Okay ... to be taken more seriously.

Was that, that must have been, I don’t know, powerful for both you and him, uh, to [00:35:00] come to that? Not like, “Oh, you’re the only person that’s ever made him feel that way” or-

Caroline: Yeah,

Jennie: no,

Caroline: I agree ... or agree with that, but. Like I, yeah. And, um, I mean, I will say I think part of the reason he was always really ... I mean, first of all, he’s just so generous, and any writer who’s ever worked with him has the same experience.

Like he just gives his time. He just loves writing and writers so much that he will just, he’ll just t- like any email I would send him, he’d write back in like an hour with a response. The part about how he feels about academia, you know, and I never directly asked him that because I didn’t wanna ... You know, if he wanted to bring it up, great.

But I think- Yeah ... my, after going on this journey with him, he clearly loves talking about- literature. He’s the most well-read person I’ve ever met. I’m just gonna say that hands down. Like, the guy reads- Really? ... cons- constantly and if you read his early works, like even when he was 17, he wrote The Long Walk, okay, which just came out as a film, [00:36:00] and in that, he’s citing T.S.

Eliot, he’s cit- he’s citing Poe at 17. Okay? So he’s, he, he, this, he comes by this honestly. He’s not just trying to seem smart. Like, he literally is constantly reading and it’s clear when you read his manuscripts or when you read his published books, he’s making references to all, whether it’s Shirley Jackson or Wallace Stevens or, you know, uh, he’s so capacious in his knowledge of literature.

And, like, just a couple months ago, he sent me an email, I don’t, I can’t remember, we were talking about something about Salem’s Lot, and he was like, “Yeah, when I was writing Salem’s Lot,” which again, this is 1975 when he’s writing Salem’s Lot, so that’s a long time ago. He’s like, “I was really into James Dickey’s poetry.”

Jennie: Whoa.

Caroline: You know, who was an American no, you know, poet laureate. Uh, he’s like, “And I was reading everything I could read of, of his and then I read Deliverance, and then I went back to his poetry, and that really impacted how I wrote the chapters [00:37:00] about the Lot,” which if you’ve read Salem’s Lot, has some very lyrical, poetic chapters about the town, like, “The town knew about darkness.

The town had its secrets and knew how to kept it.” And then he, like, sends me the entire poem that he was thinking about that James Dickey wrote. So I mean, it’s, he’s, and it’s not performative. He’s not, like, he has nothing. He doesn’t need to prove anything to me, you know?

Jennie: Right, to anyone, yeah.

Caroline: He just literally loves, he loves literature.

Like, this guy, he loves poetry. I mean, he actually writes poetry. He wrote poetry as an undergraduate. Uh, it was actually the core start for him of The Stand, was a poem he wrote called The Dark Man one day when he was, like, hungover in the school, like, cafeteria. Like, so it’s like he, he’s been thinking about literature and living with literature and, uh, since he was a teenager, if not earlier.

His mom brought him, uh, Bram Stoker out of the public library when he was nine, so I mean, the guy- Whoa ... ‘cause he asked for it. He asked for Dracula. [00:38:00] I wasn’t reading Dracula when I was nine. Were you? I mean-

Jennie: No,

Caroline: no. I was reading Little House on the Prairie. I mean-

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Wow. So- I mean, this book, again, it’s called Monsters in the Archives: My Year of Fear with Stephen King by Carolyn Bicks.

It’s just incredible, whether you’re a King fan, whether you’re a horror fan, um, but for sure for all writers, which are all our listeners. If you can, if you can bear it.

It’s very specific, um, a very specific- specific exploration of, of how good writing works really. Yeah. Right. And, and how you... You know, there’s always that perennial question of how do you get emotion on the page? How do you make your reader feel something? And you, you show it very specifically, and I wanted so badly [00:39:00] to, to get into the details, and I, and I, I just, I just couldn’t.

Um, maybe someday, but, um, I just, I just can’t recommend it enough for, for, um, this audience and, um, you know, anyone who’s interested in any of these things we’ve talked about.

Caroline: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I will say, like, the Pet Sematary chapter, which is the first one, that was the first day I was in the archives.

One of the things I discovered about him day one was how much attention he pays to word sounds. So I think for any writer interested in sort of doing a deep dive into, like, how one word change, right- Yeah ... can make a difference, you know? Yeah. And I didn’t appreciate that about his writing until I went in there and saw his notes to the copy editor where he’s like, “Nope, the word’s clitter, not clatter.

This is why.” You know? Like,

Jennie: he’s- There’s a, um- Yeah ... yeah, there’s a book I love, it’s probably right behind me, um, called The Artful Edit by Susan Bell, in which she [00:40:00] shows examples of that kind of very careful change in, um, The Gre- The Great Gatsby and The English Patient and various works of, of literature, and your, your whole book is like that.

It’s, it’s just amazing. Um- Thank you ... so is the next book gonna be the Shakespeare one you had thought of before? Or are you gonna- ... go in the, in the personal direction?

Caroline: You know, it’s such a good question. I think right now I’m just taking a break, you know, because I’m the kind... Like, I immerse myself in a project, and this has been so all-consuming.

Um, and I’m back to doing my Everyday Shakespeare podcast, which I love and I missed. Um, so I’m doing that. And I, I really don’t like to think too far ahead about what I’m going to write. I like to have it come organically.

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Um, so I could go back into the archives. I could write another one of these kinds of books, but I don’t know if that’s the [00:41:00] right thing for me right now.

Jennie: Yeah.

Caroline: Um, I want to make sure whatever I write next- You know, I loved writing this book so much. It’s my favorite... I mean, it’s, it was such a powerful experience for me, um, because I could bring my personal experiences into it and my scholarly self into it. I don’t... You know, it’s gonna be hard to recreate that.

Yeah. I think it can be done, but I don’t wanna force it. Yeah. So I’m gonna wait and see what the next, what the next one

Jennie: is. Don’t you, don’t you love the interviewer who’s like, “Hey, congratulations. You wrote a book. What, what’s your next

Caroline: one?” What are you working on now? What are you doing now? I know. And I get that.

I’m like-

Jennie: So mean ...

Caroline: I’m just, I’m just reading books I wanna read. I’m doing my laundry. I’m getting to know my dog again. You know?

Jennie: Oh, wow. Well, thank

Caroline: you. But, you know, it’s a fair question. Yeah.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming and chatting about this, and for writing such a cool book. And- Thank you ... um, I’m looking forward to seeing what you do next.

Caroline: Thank you, Jennie. It was a [00:42:00] pleasure.

Jennie: Well, for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.

The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work

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