Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

In this eye-opening episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone dive into a Reddit-sourced compilation of studies (verified where possible) that set out to prove discrimination against women... but uncovered the opposite: evidence of bias against men in areas like hiring, domestic violence, child custody, education, sexual victimization, and more.

Episode Transcript:Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be going over a number of studies. That reportedly were looking into gender differences in males and females. Oh, and basically found that men have it significantly worse than women and then attempted to cover it up.

Simone Collins: What?

Malcolm Collins: And we’re going to be, yeah, so on the subreddit, because for people to know the base camp subreddit still, it looks like Reddit, like heavily throttled it at one point to try to block it, but it’s still huge. It’s still bigger than Asma Gold or Joe Rogan. So even with the throttling, we’re doing really well, which I love.

And I regularly find great posts in it. And this was from a post in it. Where they list a number of studies and they go through how the studies try to cover things up. And then I use, I sort of try to check this with AI to see like, which of these are accurate representations of this study and where has this post of anywhere taken liberties with the information so that we can be as steelman as we can and to try to get an accurate [00:01:00] vision.

Just how much the, the data is being manipulated. And I think this is what people feel like scientists are the, the, the enemy of men say white men, let’s

Simone Collins: be, well you mean contemporary scientists because,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, these studies go back away. These studies go back to like the eighties.

Simone Collins: Okay. That’s alright.

I’m thinking of the 1880s, Malcolm. They, they were pretty cool.

Malcolm Collins: And I gotta

Simone Collins: have a You’re pretty autistic and faab fabulous. So don’t, don’t come from a gentleman scientist. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Speaker: When is modern science gonna find a cure for a woman’s mouth?

Don’t worry. That’s just a fancy doctor. Word for your brain is broken. Unfortunately, there’s no field of medicine that deals with the brain, but I can give you a pamphlet for a cult.

Malcolm Collins: For Dr.

Simone Collins: Spaceman

Malcolm Collins: and you know, this is horrifying. I, another study I learned about that.

I actually hadn’t heard about it. I don’t know how, I hadn’t heard about this from the subreddit. Mm-hmm. And I, I double checked to make sure it’s real. It’s a real study. So this [00:02:00] was a 2006 study published in Nature. And it looked at men and women playing an economic game, a version of the prisoner’s dilemma with two actors, one who played fairly and one who cheated unfairly.

Participants were then placed in an FMRI scanner and observed the actors receiving painful electric shocks to their hands. Brain scans measured empathetic responses in pain related areas like the anterior insular, anterior cingulate cortex. Mm-hmm. And reward areas like the nucleus humus. Key findings when fair players non cheaters were shocked, both men and women showed activation in empathy related brain areas indicating distress or shared pain.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: However, when unfair players, cheaters were shocked, women still showed empathy related activation distress. But when men. Men reduced the empathy that they showed and showed some activation in their reward centers seeking pleasure from seeing the bad guy punished justice.

Simone Collins: Yeah. When

Malcolm Collins: we look at something and we’re like, how [00:03:00] can you want to help these scam artists?

The, you know, the illegal immigrants, et cetera. Right. And because at first I’m like, well, maybe you could. Picture that they’re not actually just like purely negative actors stealing from like orphans and the poor like the Somali you know, scale.

Simone Collins: Right. So you’re, you’re saying that many of the people who are we’ll say, protesting both ice arrest, but also specifically ice arrests that have been ramped up in response to widespread coverage of Somali.

Daycare fraud and transport fraud. It’s not because they don’t believe the fraud is real. It’s that they still for that fraud, just as muchies

Malcolm Collins: for the people who are stealing money from orphans and the poor Oh. Billions of dollars. Right. Tens of billions of dollars. They feel just as much empathy for those people mm-hmm.

As they do for, well, I guess they don’t feel empathy for the people who were stolen from, because to them they’re, they’re just like faceless mops, right? Like they, they, they are

Simone Collins: [00:04:00] incapable. They were the people who were stolen from they in I sometimes, yes, as long as their residents. They were, well, unless they’re not in, but that, that money was tax,

Malcolm Collins: that money was earmarked for daycare centers, the poor orphans,

Simone Collins: stuff like that.

Right? Well, yeah, and, and for public transport and for AU autism services as well. And it’s not just that this money is being wasted. Parents of actually autistic children have a very difficult time getting past wait lists for autistic services because of things like this. So it’s, it’s very annoying.

Malcolm Collins: You’re very annoying. Anyway. So, th that I thought was interesting because it gives me a better insight into what these Karens are actually thinking and why autistic women who think more like men may not have this. Mm-hmm. I’d be very interested if they did it to you, Simon. I think you would the, the, the cheaters, you wouldn’t mind them, them getting comeuppance.

But I thought that was an interesting study to start here. That one was not a misreported study. Wow. So now I wanna get to the, the body of the post here.

Simone Collins: [00:05:00] Okay.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So studies that expect to find discrimination against women often find discrimination against men instead. Oh, by the way for the, the Reddit if anyone’s willing to be a mod, reach out to us.

We need more mods for the subreddit. It helps if you are a part of the community, and we can vet you in any way to make sure you’re not gonna go crazy.

Simone Collins: And thanks to those of you who did reach out and are helping.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we just really appreciate

Simone Collins: it. We,

Malcolm Collins: we don’t really have rules. It’s just like, don’t get it banned.

That’s a goal. So like, you know. No threatening to murder people or mention other subreddits. You can’t even mention that you were banned from other subreddits, which I didn’t realize was such a strict rule on Reddit.

Simone Collins: Really?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh well. So he goes, sometimes they take it gracefully and report it in their results in good faith, but other times they make excuses for it and we’ll try to cover it up.

Mm-hmm. The following is they list of 13 examples ranging from hiring, discrimination, domestic violence, education discrimination, and child custody discrimination. So, a study about employment discrimination against women and [00:06:00] mothers instead uncovered discrimination against men and fathers. One study on hiring discrimination looked at the effects of marriage and parental status on a person’s hiring prospects.

They expected to find discrimination against women and against mother specifically. What they found instead was that in every cohort, women were preferred over men. Whether single married, childless, or with children, instead of reporting on this novel finding, they instead went in detail about how pregnant women are often discriminated against to non-pregnant women, which they tried to frame as being sexist against women.

The fact that they found that women. Where preferred over men is buried inside the body of the study buffered by Han Wavy remarks about how pregnant women still face other difficulties related to employment,

Simone Collins: which

Malcolm Collins: is

Simone Collins: valid. Sounds like the universal basic income. Research where in the end they found that it really didn’t help people, but what they ended up reporting on was, oh, people say they feel a lot better and [00:07:00] they took more leisure time.

Like they just reported the, the two things that they did find that could plausibly send the message they wanted to send, and just neglected to highlight the other elements of it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So this study, specifically what they’re talking here is, is Becker Fernandez and Weissmann 2019 discrimination in hiring based on potential and realized fertility evidence from a large scale field experiment, labor, economics it’s where this is published.

Mm-hmm. And if you put an AI on this the AI is, is funny in the way it tries to get around it. It’s like, well. The study was more about how whether being pregnant affects these things and the other findings weren’t as important. And it’s like, okay, so this is accurate. He reported it correctly and they just were, and he, he points out that it almost sounds salty that the data didn’t come out the way they wanted to.

How much they focused on just the pregnant moms.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So then a [00:08:00] study on domestic violence against women finds that men are more likely to be victims than women. A 2005 study on domestic violence wrote their entire abstract in a way that implies that domestic violence is significantly worse against women than men.

But the actual body of their research reports the exact opposite of that. A fact that other researchers eventually discovered and wrote about. While not strictly about discrimination, they are guilty of expecting to find that things were worse for women, when in reality it’s men who appear disproportionately affected.

And this was 2007 Women who perpetuate Intimate Partner Violence, a review of the literature with recommendation for treatment, aggressive behavior. And then a, the, the, the offending study that lied about this mm-hmm. 2005, gender and the seriousness of assault on intimate partners and their victims.

Journal of Marriage and Family. So. What, what actually happened in this study. This one is a bit more nuanced. This examines the seriousness of assault injuries, et cetera, and finds male intimate partner [00:09:00] assaults often are more serious or severe than female ones. Though some effects align with general violence patterns.

So. Basically what they’re saying here and what they, they did not like is they’re saying, well, the effects of the abuse are worse when it’s men doing it. And it’s like, well, no dumb men are stronger, women are weaker, right? Like, am I allowed to say that? I don’t know. Is that gonna get clipped out? And they’re gonna be like, how dare he?

I saw a strong woman once I saw a strong, how care can he say women are, are weaker when a strong woman exists? But anyway. You, you know, you know how they argue? Oh my gosh. That pomegranate juice that was foaming like that. You were right. It was fermented. I can feel the effects of the alcohol.

Simone Collins: Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Is that safe to drink accidentally home fermented

Simone Collins: concrete?

Malcolm Collins: I always stopped drinking it because it [00:10:00] had so many, whoa, that is strong. Anyway,

Simone Collins: as your mom would say, not gonna lie, I feel a little tipsy. You are in for it, Mr. Oh my goodness gracious.

Malcolm Collins: People know what, I drop something because I stopped drinking.

On screen. If I see, if they see me drinking something that looks purple like this, it’s, it’s pomegranate juice. And I guess this one. Woo. Great. Whoa.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Pomegranate moonshine, ladies and gentlemen.

Malcolm Collins: Great. That was, well, I, it foamed a ton and I was like,

Simone Collins: it’s, I mean, did it taste good? Was it, it tastes

Malcolm Collins: vinegary and pomegranate, which works actually so

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, I guess if things ever get real rough.

I,

Malcolm Collins: I know

Simone Collins: we just have a blizzard. We’re shut in here. You know, if you run out of,

Malcolm Collins: no, not just that, a foam to create like a champagne taste as [00:11:00] well.

Simone Collins: Wow. I mean, posh.

Malcolm Collins: Posh.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I like it. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m, I’m just gonna stick to my, what am I on now? Just five ounces of vodka to get a tiny bit tipsy.

I’m glad you’re getting something out of just a few sips of off po pomegranate juice. You really have cut down. If that’s getting you going.

Malcolm Collins: So what the, the actual study showed was that yes, women do it more, but it’s less severe when women do it, which like, okay, I get the nuance, but like that’s something they, that that’s the more interesting finding.

And then they go to the 1975 National Family Violence Survey uncovered higher rates of abuse against men. Mm. The very first large scale federal study of domestic violence in the United States was carried out by researchers who expected to find higher rates of female victimization compared to male victimization.

Mm-hmm. The results of the study showed that slightly more men than women were victims of domestic violence, including severe forms of domestic violence. So this one showed the opposite on severe forms of domestic violence. [00:12:00] Two of these researchers, ma and Straus and Susan Reman spent the rest of their career to researching this phenomenon and discovering this.

Wow. Reman in particular was the first researcher to coin the battered husband syndrome back in 1977. A concept that would eventually be co-opted by feminists during the 1980s to write it as a myth when applied to men early CTS and so what, what AI is saying here. Also, I note here because I was. A little worried that we were gonna have, obviously Jewish names on all of these.

And, and even the based ones include obviously Jewish researchers, right? They’re on both sides of this guys. Okay. The, the, you gotta, you got a, a, a schleman here who’s, who’s showing that men get abused by women too. So, as I point out, they’re just overrepresented in sort of all educated things. But I, I understand how people get into sort of a noticing pattern recognition mindset.

So, what AI said when I was like, is, is, is this true? Mm. Vinegar, [00:13:00]

Simone Collins: oh my God, you’re still.

Malcolm Collins: Two of those researchers, Maray Straus and Susan Reman, I’m not gonna let something go to waste. I’m like You. She went from, oh

Simone Collins: no, you’re taking after me now. This is

Malcolm Collins: Bad Jar. A spoiled almond butter that made her horribly sick, like she thought she had a really bad flu. And then it turned out she was just eating spoiled nuts and we found the culprit and then she finished with it.

Freaking Malmo for a apothecary diary. And it came up, she admitted it to me afterwards ‘cause we were watching that show and she goes, I synthesize so much. And now she’s thinking, I don’t let things go to waste either. We’ll see how actively sick it ends up making me. And then I can make decisions about drinking spoiled juices in the future.

Simone Collins: Yeah, experimentation is always worthwhile as long as it doesn’t cause permanent serious damage. So be careful.

Malcolm Collins: Two of the researchers Maray Straus in its, yeah, actually, I, I should not have any more of that. That’s a mistake.

Simone Collins: Please don’t. Yeah, please stop. [00:14:00] I, I can handle it. I, I don’t, one, you don’t have my pain tolerance, so that, and also two, you don’t have my stomach.

So also that.

Malcolm Collins: No.

Simone Collins: Okay. Don’t.

Malcolm Collins: So early CTS based surveys like Strauss and gals, found rough gender symmetry in purple. Perpetration rates sometimes slightly higher for men as victims in minor violence. Contrary to expectations. Straus 2010 argues denial of symmetry persisted. This is a real debated area in DV research.

Feminist critiques argue cts overcount situational violence and undercounts coercive control slash severity, where women per date as perpetrators or predominate as perpetrators, ply, and others face backlash. Okay, so. Basically I, I do, because I’ve actually read this research, he, they are slightly misstating it, yes, men face slightly more, but we’re talking like insignificant, slightly more abuse [00:15:00] than, than women face. In terms of the directionality of the abuse in male female relationships this gets more interesting when you’re talking about same-sex women and same-sex male relationships where same-sex women relationships are much more abusive than same-sex male relationships.

Although the most abusive are bisexual relationships which watch our video on like, bisexuals, what’s wrong with you? Because like all of the stats are off the charts when you’re dealing with bisexuals. I, I always thought they would be like between straight people and gays, but it’s like, no, they’re like a more extreme version of gayness with like any, any negative way that gayness affects your wife.

Bisexual affects. About twice as much but even being an abuser. But the, the it is a bit of an overclaim to say too much, and I think it’s, it’s easier to just be like, the shocking thing is it’s the rates were about equal. What I find uniquely hilarious and I think it shows why it is so dangerous to get married to somebody who doesn’t.

Disavow feminism is the sociopathy with the way that feminists handle this. To say [00:16:00] that feminist critiques argue, CTSO over counts situational violence. When women do it, it’s just. Situational violence. They’re just angry.

Simone Collins: They’re just No, they’re just hangry. Okay. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: they’re just hysterical.

They’re on their period. It’s situational,

Simone Collins: man. I mean, I do see how this could happen though, because I think women feel like they have impunity. So I, I just feel like from a, let’s say you are a male or a female and you are equally mad and in exactly the same situation, you are more likely to actually express.

Violent behavior as a woman because you feel as though you have more impunity and you’re also aware of the fact that technically speaking, on average, you are going to do less damage. I think men are aware of the fact that they, they can really, really, really hurt someone if they don’t control themselves when they fly into a [00:17:00] rage.

Whereas a woman who flies into a rage against a man is not as likely, and she’s aware of this. To get so out of control that physically she will permanently harm or, or break bones or things like that, right? It, it’s, it’s just physically harder for a woman who’s completely blind with rage and acting physically to cause the same amount of damage as

Malcolm Collins: a man.

Look at this woman talking here. Look, look at her. Diffuse defending abusive women.

Simone Collins: Oh, God, no, I’m, no, I’m, I’m explaining why I think women do this. As much as they do. ‘cause because it’s, it still surprises me because I think women are more conflict avoidant in general, aren’t they? Right. Especially because they’ve, not that I, this testosterone.

I mean,

Malcolm Collins: where does the concept of the Karen come from? They’re much, I mean.

Simone Collins: No, but they, the, the, the Karen is famous for attempting to exert force through appeals to authority, not through her, her own [00:18:00] physical action. I feel like,

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. No. Karen’s become violent like really frequently in videos that I’ve seen.

Simone Collins: Yes, I know. I know. This is gonna be a whole nother repeat of Simone Sides with Bear.

Malcolm Collins: Simone. No, I love that. I have my ti She, she’s just too autistic to be, to not

Simone Collins: try to, I’m trying to think through it, but I, I think I don’t, nevermind. Pretend I didn’t say anything side.

Malcolm Collins: This bear,

Simone Collins: she chose the bear. He chose the man.

Oh guys, I get it. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I need to warn our audience who is now obviously, and I think rightfully scared of what I have to go through in this relationship that Simone. Almost never beats me. And that I live a, a life without any fear of regular beatings.

Simone Collins: I’m sure you feared for my life when you accidentally dipped your hand into, into my popcorn dish [00:19:00] yesterday flew off the handle.

Malcolm Collins: I was genuinely, I was like, oh, no,

Simone Collins: I’m sorry. I really am sorry about that. I felt bad after

Malcolm Collins: I touched her popcorn and I thought it was for the kids, so I was like, oh, I’ll have some before I, I go service them,

Simone Collins: come for my popcorn and

Malcolm Collins: I got in between and I in her popcorn. Don’t darling. The, like, like a lion or something?

I could, I could see the

it was it was you know, in the nature documentaries when the one lion comes in and like tries to eat the other lion’s kill and it’s not ready to give the,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And it gets that like, like what are you thinking?

Simone Collins: Nevermind. I take back what I said. It makes perfect sense that this many women are, the aggressors I was wrong

Malcolm Collins: was

Simone Collins: wrong.

She didn’t,

Malcolm Collins: by the way, actually, like I did you, did you like grab my hand or something?

Simone Collins: No, I [00:20:00] didn’t. No. I just, I, I, I said a thing that your mom used to. Often say,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah. So even when you’re really mad, you don’t like, hit me or anything. So I, I get away without the aggression. Fortunately I did get hit very aggressively by multiple of our children yesterday.

Now they are larger now, and I hadn. Thought through how much making them love fighting me is going to become a problem as they become incrementally larger and now as a group can take me down.

Simone Collins: Yeah, because they fight very gently with each other. They do not fight gently with Malcolm. They just, that’s when they, that’s when they don’t pull punches.

It, it’s when they don’t, they, they play for keeps. He is a literal punching bag.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I’m literally like, how

Simone Collins: hard then he can get hurt. Well, it’s because they respect you so much and you’re, you’re their strong, safe place. So of course there’s nothing they could ever do that would hurt you because you can defeat Krampus.

You can defeat the balu, you can defeat [00:21:00] wingos. Right? So of course they could never hurt you. It is logical of God. Am I defending? I’m defending abusers.

Malcolm Collins: You’re defending the abusers.

Simone Collins: What is wrong with me?

Malcolm Collins: A woman defends a bear. You see the bear and you immediately rush like,

Simone Collins: hold on. Look at this little bear.

I not sign with bears when I always

Malcolm Collins: say, maybe the bear was hungry. Maybe he was hungry. Maybe that’s why he ate the family.

Simone Collins: I hate that I’m sitting here just proving all of

Malcolm Collins: the reasons. You’re actually like the police. At, at, at a Bears invaded somebody’s, this is, you end up putting the bear in the episode where the bear was living in the guy’s house in California and the government wouldn’t let him evicted.

And your response to this horrifying scenario was like, the guy isn’t trying hard enough.

Simone Collins: Oh my God. And yesterday my dad was saying that. Coyote cubs that the mother had set her cubs loose and that the coyote cubs had eaten [00:22:00] nine of their chickens. And I was like, well, at least the coyote cubs aren’t hungry.

What again, what is, yes, this is a very female response, I guess, right? That that, well, I’m sure the, the person who did the damage needed to do it, but then I guess it goes to show what a feminized take it is when you hear. Anyone saying something like, well, the person who stole my bike, I’m sure they needed it more when really, no, these are actually, not to use more leftist terms, but these are larger systemic problems.

When someone steals your bike, they’re not actually riding their, your bike to their job that they’re. Working hard at to feed their family? No. It’s part of this massive bike trafficking chain that is run largely by one man based in Mexico, and there’s an amazing, I think, planet Money episode about it, again, to reference leftist media, but.

Malcolm Collins: And this whole thing is it you, I always give the reference to [00:23:00] the vash, the stampede, you know, quote about not knives argument was, was vash. I always thought it was so interesting, there was a villain’s argument against the hero when the villain was clearly in the right, in this argument that, you know, you can’t save a spider.

And the butterfly, if you save the butterfly, eventually the spider’s going to starve. You know, you have to be decisive and choose one. And the same way that like.

Speaker 6: I didn’t want to kill the spider. I wanted to save them both. What are you talking about? Unless the spider caught the butterfly, it would die of starvation anyway. You can’t save both, don’t you know that?

Speaker 5: It’s not right to make that choice so easily. Both of them are living creatures, Knives. BUt

Speaker 6: I’m not wrong about this, Rem. If you just keep saving the butterflies, the spiders will die. Yes, but Wanting to save both is just a naive contradiction. And what would you have rather had us do, just stand and think about it? In the meantime, while we do that, the spider eats the butterfly

Speaker 5: What’s

Speaker 6: wrong with

Speaker 7: you, Knives?! don’t you understand?! [00:24:00] I wanted to save both of them, you idiot!

Speaker 6: Don’t make any sense, Bash.

Malcolm Collins: We can’t live in a world where sometimes a Karen isn’t shot and ice officers are harassed. Either ice officers are inconvenienced or we don’t get to shoot.

Karen’s, and I don’t, I don’t understand, by the way, I’m joking here. She literally hit a law enforcement agent with her car, and the other guy literally attacked a police officer while he was armed holding a gun, right? Like, yeah, they may have knocked the gun outta his hand first, but you ask anyone.

Hey, if you attack a law enforcement officer while armed, what do you think is the most likely outcome of that? You get shot? Yeah, you get shot. And, and shocked. Peek at you face from the left right now. But the, the point here being is, is there there are bad actors in society and, and we have to address them, you know, like, and [00:25:00] I think they, they’re outing themselves and I think we need to be societally as aggressive towards them as they were towards us on the, let’s call them the, capitol building protest day when a bunch of our side ended up in jail for like eight years for stuff. Way less bad than is happening at ice protests right now. Right? Like, they’re throwing bricks at like passerby cars that aren’t even involved in this, that could easily end up killing someone, right?

Like this is. Horrifying what’s being done. We’ve had multiple instances of them opening up shootings. I love that. There was that one where everyone was like, oh, there’s a shooting at the ice detention facility. Can you believe how evil Right wingers this was right after, I think the Charlie Kirk shooting.

It was a few days after that. Mm-hmm. And everyone was like, look, the right does shootings too. And then it turned out it was leftist trying to shoot the detention agents. They just missed and shot the detainees. And nobody ever talked about it again after that. ‘cause obviously, duh. Left wing [00:26:00] shooting a tent.

That’s just another day in the, the city right now, right? Like, we just expect that like, oh, some trans person tried to shoot people again.

Speaker 7: Nice to meet you, . Listen, if you ever need anybody murdered. Please give me a call and you, you’re giving him card. No.

Code of ethics. I will kill anyone anywhere. Children, animals, old people, doesn’t matter. I just love killing

Speaker 6: you.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So to continue here. 20 10, 30 years of denying the evidence on gender symmetry and partner violence implications for the prevention of treatment.

This is about the, the research we’re talking about above. So, related to this is the fact that Aaron Pricely discovered the same thing on the ground after opening the world. First domestic violence center for women in Britain. All of the relevant parties here took this in stride and bravely went against the status quo.

So when, so like when they tried to open this, they found, oh, about half the people who are coming are men. In some instances, they even received death threats and bomb threats from feminists for trying to help men. All three are widely [00:27:00] celebrated in the men’s rights movement.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh.

Malcolm Collins: But th th this is wild here, that you open a domestic violence shelter.

You allow it to sometimes help men and feminists will threaten to bomb you. When they say, and they get mad at you for saying All lives matter. They really. Do not mean, oh. Well, it’s just we need to focus on this discriminated group. They really do not believe all lives matter. All victims matter. It is some lives are more equal than others.

And the reason they had to remake that movie is so that you wouldn’t know the, the context of what is meant by that. That when somebody

Simone Collins: wait. Animal Farm was remade. Are you saying that?

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. They remade it. They remade it. And what was funny is it was remade by a Christian company that like did a lot of Christian shows before.

Okay. And they, and they made the core bad guy, not the pigs, but a stand-in for Elon Musk who drove like a cyber truck. Are you

Simone Collins: serious?

Malcolm Collins: Capitalist. And we’re like super pro business and [00:28:00] stuff.

Simone Collins: What?

Speaker 12: , pigs and humans working together.

Speaker 8: All animals are equal. But some are more equal than others.

I parked the car. Let’s have no one do that again.

Speaker 10: Animal farm. Okay. Cautionary tales

Malcolm Collins: yes. Should we have done an episode on this? I thought that this was too saturated in the right wing media that I didn’t

Simone Collins: even do enough.

Oh, wait, this happened recently?

Malcolm Collins: Presumably this is like a, this last month or like a two months ago.

Simone Collins: Okay. I sorry. I, this is my first time hearing about it. Okay. That’s wild. That’s like

Malcolm Collins: in it. Yeah. It’s

Simone Collins: life. It’s life action.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. He, he plays.

Simone Collins: Oh, he voices wanna be. Wait, so if it’s anti-capitalist, then how?

Nevermind. Wait, let’s not go down that rabbit hole. Let’s keep talking about,

Malcolm Collins: well, actually I do need to, because I haven’t mentioned this point on the show in a [00:29:00] while and I used to mention it a lot and it’s something that people really need to get.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The gay pride flag. Okay. It meant everyone under the rainbow, every color stood for like, art, liberty, et cetera.

It wasn’t like, you know, gays, lesbians, whatever.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s not like male, male attracted people. Are represented only by the rainbow spectrum and then no one else.

Malcolm Collins: It, it, it meant inclusivity. That was the entire point of putting thera saying the full spectrum.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Everyone under the rainbow.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: The progress pride flag, or as we call it on the show, the colonizer’s flag.

They took the flag that meant inclusivity and literally started defacing it with. Additional signs for specific groups. So a flag that meant equality was literally defaced with signs to say, [00:30:00] but yes, but these groups need to be more equal than other groups. And which groups is it? It is brown and black people.

And trans people. It is literally, there could not be a more perfect representation of the urban monoculture. Of its conquest over cultural institutions. When it hangs it from a institution, it’s saying, I conquered this, then that flag. And we need to recognize it for what it is. It is a defaced sign of inclusivity.

And the reason why that’s not obvious to people is because the lesson of animal farm is no longer top of mind for people. Mm-hmm. Whenever somebody says, well, but some groups are more equal than others, you need to be like, well wait a second here. That’s literally just animal farm.

Okay. While there are a few quote unquote honest studies out there, the most well known okay, sorry. Several studies on sexual assaults have found near equal rates of male victimization as female victimization. While there are a few quote unquote honest studies out there, the most well [00:31:00] known try to hide this.

Fact, in their research, the primary strategy they use is to divine female on male grape as something else that’s not grape. Recently the CDC came under fire for this Stimple Meyer 2014. The Sexual Victimization of Men in America. New Data Challenge, old Assumptions. American Journal of Public Health.

No. So this was funny. I put this in ai and AI just goes accurate. C-D-C-N-I-S-C-V data shows similar rates of made to penetrate for men versus grape for women in some years. But, but I love that AI always eats to sit for the other side, but definitions differ. Grape, often coated as penetration of the victim.

Well, then definitionally women can’t do it.

Simone Collins: I feel like the men can’t be raped. Argument, is it? It hits me very similarly to the, well, women have a way to spontaneously abort pregnancies. They don’t want argument like, I’m sorry, how does this make sense? [00:32:00] Ex, explain this to me, but whatever.

Malcolm Collins: All right. A study trying to prove that mothers are discriminated against in family court instead found the exact opposite and then tried to hide it.

A study from late 1980 on child custody discrimination expected to find discrimination against mothers and not fathers, LOL. But I How could you even think you were going to find that? You’d have to be so dumb. So cooked in the feminist narrative to think that child custody course don’t discriminate against fathers.

But instead discovered that men were six times less likely to gain custody compared to identically placed women. Not only did their publication attempt to use dishonest statistical shenanigans to hide this, they tried to bury the raw data and prevent other researchers from double checking their findings.

Mm-hmm. Their study is still widely cited by researchers as well as by random people on the internet because it is. The only study that on the surface found discrimination against mothers in one meta study, it sticks out like a so [00:33:00] sum in comparison to around 10 other studies that found the exact opposite.

You can read the meta study here and a list of sources on page 9, 7 4 in the footnotes. The me meta is Beyond Economic Fatherhood, encouraging divorce fatherhood to Parent. And then the offending study was 1989. So keep in mind this has been happening since the late eighties gender bias study of the court systems in Massachusetts.

So, science has been cut for a while. The story of how one researcher discovered that the study was fraudulent and how he came into possession of the raw data that they had tried to bury can be found here. 1995 misrepresentation of gender bias in the 1989. Support of the gender bias committee of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, breaking the science.

Ooh, maybe we could do an episode on that. By the way, an episode I just queued up to work on is average racial attractiveness of men and women. I’ve never seen somebody do a breakdown of that, and I I Are you just like, are you just, are you just [00:34:00] gunning for a van here?

Simone Collins: I, I thought we were gonna try, try to be good.

We just are, we just, we can’t help ourselves. I’m not gonna

Malcolm Collins: make this subjective. I’m gonna have a tear list that’s done by scientists.

Simone Collins: Oh, thank goodness. That solves all of the problem. That is. Why not just fine, fine, fine, fine.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think that some you know, ethnicities get blurred, right? Like,

Simone Collins: blurred blurt, what, what is this blurt?

Malcolm Collins: Some ethnicities have a high ancy between the males and the females. Attractiveness,

Simone Collins: disparity,

Malcolm Collins: discrepancy like for example,

Simone Collins: okay, I am sorry. You’ve been hit by poisoned ferment, Bob for seeing this. The signs, oh no.

Malcolm Collins: Shut up. This is abuse. This is what I deal with. I was just trying to save the family money.[00:35:00]

Simone Collins: Oh

Malcolm Collins: my God. And I was tasting the delicious pomegranate juice.

Simone Collins: I can’t feel my fingertips. It’s so cold in here. And you’re drinking expired pomegranate. We need. We gotta figure something out, man.

Oh God. Okay. Keep going. So you’re gonna do an episode on that? Yeah. Any, any final thoughts here on the, no

Malcolm Collins: wait, we’re not done yet.

Simone Collins: Oh, God.

Malcolm Collins: So, the, the, god, actually, I’m just gonna read an AI response here and you could tell how much this is true from how much it tries to say it’s not true, and the ways it tries to say it’s not true.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: This is a contested claim from men’s right sources, a contested claim that doesn’t say it’s not true. The report stated fathers who actively seek custody. Get primary joy at custody around 70% of the time. Refuting pervasive maternal bias claims. [00:36:00] Rosenfeld’s critique argues the SAT was misleading.

EEG didn’t distinguish contested versus uncontested cases. Used a small sample of father’s thinking that is. Accurate, then That’s a very accurate contested con con contest.

Simone Collins: Contestation,

Malcolm Collins: contestation meta-analysis and other studies show mothers will win most contested cases overall, but fathers who pursue aggressively often succeed at higher rates.

I highly doubt that. Not clear fraud, but selective presentation. Yes, that’s fraud. Come on. But anyway, to continue going here. Unsubstantiated reports that women were being underrepresented in medical research has created a large gap against male medical research. The researchers in this case may not have a bias, but their research was conducted against a general assumption that medical research was unfairly focused on men.

The complaints were loud enough to inspire research into the topic where it was [00:37:00] quickly found that far more interest and money. Put into women’s research than men’s research, including even in areas where men are known to be affected more. Recently, John Oliver repeated these myths despite some of his research being almost 20 years old now.

So this has been happening for a long time at this point. Oh, wow. 2001.

Simone Collins: I mean, most of the media coverage is about how. All scientific research is oriented around white men in their twenties and no other group is represented. And I mean, historically that has been a serious problem, hasn’t it? I mean, and it still is an issue.

It’s

Malcolm Collins: been more of a problem that white people are overrepresented, but this is in part because we weren’t allowed to do medical experimentations on other groups after like Tuskegee experiments and everywhere. And they’re knickers in a twist. And so now most medical experiments are done on white people.

‘cause nobody wants to say you did a medical experiment on some other group. And so there are given drugs that aren’t good for them. Nobody cares. Nobody cares about actually going. Nobody used to

Simone Collins: use the word knickers in the same paragraph as Tuskegee. Experiment.

Malcolm Collins: When did I say the N word?

Simone Collins: You said knickers.

Malcolm Collins: Knickers.

Simone Collins: You [00:38:00] close. It’s too close. You can’t do that. You can’t use the worders. You sounded like you were

Malcolm Collins: saying the other word.

Simone Collins: That’s why you said you can’t use the word knickers.

Malcolm Collins: Knickers. Okay.

Simone Collins: God, especially not when you’re a little tipsy.

Malcolm Collins: Recently bar, this was 2001, did medical research routinely exclude women an examination of the evidence epistemology.

And then John Oliver repeats these in his, in, in the midst in his coverage of gender bias in the healthcare field. Men are human. A study that’s with an art. I think an article here, men are Human, where they talk about and repeat John Oliver showing stuff that is untrue. His show is just.

An entirely untrue show if you ever covered something that you know a lot about. It’s, it’s basically just fiction. A study expecting to find discrimination against girls in math and science is said, found that boys are discriminated against in literally every [00:39:00] single subject. Before we get to this one, sometimes people will say like, you guys make mistakes on your show too.

Generally, we try to correct those mistakes in the next episode, but the number one place, if you, if you actually look our con. Our feed and you’ll see people saying you made mistakes. It’s almost always people from a specific religious community that I think are and, and note here I’m not talking about like, it’s always what we attack a lot of religious community.

We, we try to get based on a lot of traditional religious concepts on this. And it’s typically them saying. What you said about my community is not accurate or our history is not accurate here. And I think a reasonable person would either be, like, in some cases you’re just nitpicking and for the point of the point that they’re making what they said was correct or you might be too biased to see that they have a point on this stuff.

If we come across as broadly accurate when we’re critiquing other religious communities to you. But [00:40:00] just we only mess up with your community. That’s probably something to dig into. And where I’ve made mistakes on that, like I did make some mistakes with the Thomas Aquinas and Augustus of Hippo thing.

I try to not make those mistakes again and speak more clearly on those specific points. But anyway and we did accidentally mix up Basham, bolem, ta and

Sabo Levy.

Malcolm Collins: Whatever in, in one episode. So we, we that, that’s the most embarrassing religious mix up I’ve ever made. But to continue here a study experimenting the find discrimination against girls in mass and science in.

I already read that. Okay. Another study on educational discrimination expected to find discrimination against female students. In part to explain why girls struggle in math and science, they instead found exactly the opposite of this. The male students were discriminated against in every subject, including even math and science.

The study was honest in how they reported the results, so, and the researchers were humble enough to admit that they expected to find different results in the [00:41:00] abstract. And then I asked in AI about this, and it said, accurate. The experiment found a two to one preference for women over identically qualified men in tenure track stem hires except when men were more accomplished.

Researchers were surprised by this and were honest. And then in a another study, the one that they were just referencing here in a AI says, accurate in Israel, blind grading, removing names. So teachers are biased against boys in all subjects. And, and this, this meant that even in subjects for girls typically outperform boys, the gap is widened.

When teachers know that boys are there to, to send a young boy to a school is just wild. You know, we’ve taken ours out and now seeing that there’s like games that he can play that just like do school. For him it’s like

Simone Collins: 2008 hitting milestones way faster. Yeah. If, if you are, if you have a boy in school, especially a young boy, a young active boy, and you could.

Feasibly possibly homeschool him. Maybe because he worked from [00:42:00] home, cannot recommend it enough.

Malcolm Collins: Stick him in front of a computer all day.

Simone Collins: Well, on a treadmill desk, that is underrated. Standing desks and treadmill desks for kids, I’m discovering. Highly underrated.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, do 2008, we do gender stereotypes, reduce girls or boys, human capital outcomes guidance from a natural experiment.

Journal of Public Economics, an unpublished experiment meant to find discrimination against women in stem instead found evidence of the opposite.

How could you possibly think there was discrimination against women in stem? You’d have to be so F brain cooked to the researcher masked the voices of candidates so that their gender wouldn’t be known. The idea was that female candidates would do better than what they do when their gender is known.

She instead found that gender in the blind process benefited men instead of women. Indicating that there was gender discrimination against men. She never followed through with a large scale study because the researcher, a feminist, didn’t get the results that she wanted from her preliminaries trials.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: 2016, this [00:43:00] tool gender swaps, the voices of tech, job candidates. Here’s what happened, the Washington Post. So they ended up covering this. And this is wild because it was a two to one difference.

Simone Collins: Oh no. Oh.

So many bad looks here.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. A study about employment discrimination in Australia found evidence of discrimination against men instead of women.

Mm-hmm. Another study on gender blinding performed in Australia was meant to find discrimination against women, but instead found discrimination against men.

Simone Collins: Well, you know what’s, so what’s even worse about this is you can ask. Pretty much any man living in a developed country these days. And they’d be like, well, obviously like I, I’ve been living this, but they are being gaslit about it.

No, you’re not,

Malcolm Collins: you’re

Simone Collins: not the, you’re the aggressor. You’re the patriarchy. We need more representation of women and everyone who’s not you. And that’s, IIII can, I can only imagine what [00:44:00] that is like I, I can, I can I maybe slightly vicariously lived that through you. But it, it must be incredibly frustrating, especially for young men who absolutely have been living this and just everyone’s like, no, no, you’re not.

No, no, no. We’re not

Malcolm Collins: discriminated. And this is, but the bear, think of the bear.

Simone Collins: I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I, I am part of the problem. Do I need to go on my apology tour now?

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta do your, your. You gotta go full plural. Davis, Simone, all the way Proman. She’s, she’s very, very proman in her stuff.

She’s the most pro male person I have seen online more than any men’s rights advocate that I have seen. I think, I think that she can afford, you know, you can be that far when you’re a woman. So, a widely cited study on orchestra auditions supposedly found evidence of discrimination against women is flawed and may manufacture the opposite.

The [00:45:00] results were not statistically significant since the data was flawed to begin with, which is perhaps what allowed the original researchers to mold it to their predetermined conclusions. However, it does support the idea that men are discriminated against. A fact that shows up in their data tables plain as day.

Inside the study related Vancouver Symphony holds blind composition Competition causes outrage when all the women nerves are male and mostly white. VSO promises to discriminate against white males next year. Can remember when I saw that coming out on men’s Right stuff. Feminists inspired investigations into pay discrimination against women at Google.

And the BBC instead found that men were being underpaid.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Adding to these comments, this brings the total up to 11. Here we have, I’m sure

Simone Collins: d the data differently. Women would actually be able to show that men are still out earning them. And the problem I, I would imagine is that men are more qualified.

So that for, for the same level of qualification, men are being [00:46:00] paid profoundly less, but men are probably still being paid more because they’re the vast majority. Like there, there just are not enough women who are qualified in these very highly paid roles, if that makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Andy this is posted, I guess I should say who posted it?

Xbox Hacks or z. Is very Reddit name. Yes. How is Reddit fun again? Base camp Reddit is actually, like, I have started checking Reddit regularly again, and I haven’t done that in ages, but I, I just do it on the base camp sub the base camp. ‘cause it’s, it’s like, you know, kata in action, but like 10 times as large.

And, and way more Mimi.

Simone Collins: I follow R out of the loop because it helps me understand what people think is important to the media, like topics that people want to have explained. But then it also helps me understand what the go-to left is. Take on it is, which is helpful.

Malcolm Collins: You

Simone Collins: we’ll say Left is center take.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: My wife here. Watches mostly leftist media. Oh, even

Simone Collins: profoundly. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You, [00:47:00] you watched this podcast where they did an episode on us that was entirely wrong. Like you said, they were the most factually wrong. Anyone who’s ever been about us.

Simone Collins: Yeah. A bit fruity with Matt Bernstein. Love that podcast. You

Malcolm Collins: watched them.

Simone Collins: I love, I love snark though. So

Malcolm Collins: I think we might be the only like right wing podcast where one of the hosts is actually like really up with what’s going on in left wing media and yet doesn’t even know standard right wing memes, but like Animal Farm was remade and Elon Musks was made the villain.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s, that’s

Malcolm Collins: really funny.

Christian Media Studio.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Talk about, actually a really fun thing happened quite a whim since you don’t watch the Game on Media. And I know actually we, we have a lot of listeners, so I do not think watch the game or media. So no worry about video game. That’s about medieval times. It’s called I say a Knight’s

Path.

Malcolm Collins: looks really good.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway and it’s really cool actually. So they made it super realistic about medieval times, but then [00:48:00] they included like monster type stuff in it, but only stuff that you would find at the illustrations in old manuscripts. Oh,

Simone Collins: that’s cool.

Malcolm Collins: Giant snails and

Simone Collins: like killer rabbits.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like giant snails and killer rabbits,

Simone Collins: giant snails and killer rabbits.

That’s awesome.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like, oh, that looks so fun. And somebody ask them, they go, are, are you gonna put something like L-L-G-B-T in this game in one of the comments? And they’re like, no, we won’t use our game to push your agenda. And. The, the lefties freaked out about it. And in the meantime, there’s this other game called 1385 x Luxe or something.

Mm-hmm. They basically takes place in a similar time period, but it’s about a lesbian romance of a knight, which you female night which never would’ve happened in this time period. And

Simone Collins: sort of arc come on. I mean, at least there are,

Malcolm Collins: wasn’t lesbian.

Simone Collins: I mean, you don’t know that.

Malcolm Collins: I think,

Simone Collins: am I doing it again?

Okay. We need to shut this down before I get,

Malcolm Collins: she was [00:49:00] incredibly devout and, and all the chds are going for this one game is doing really

Simone Collins: well. Yeah. What is more lesbian than a nunnery Malcolm? Just

Malcolm Collins: because, and then they complained that they made the love interest in the other Knight’s game. They go, she looks too clean.

And makeup and basically pretty to be a medieval woman. And they’re like,

Simone Collins: oh, I thought you were gonna say to be a lesbian. Oh, why did

Malcolm Collins: I just say that? No, this is, no, this is not the lesbian, the, the, the lesbian looks dirty and ugly. Okay. I’m not gonna put love interest in the game that everybody likes.

And so. The, the we’re, we’re hoping we’re gonna begin to see a resurgence of, of good media. You just need me to get on my project of making Minneapolis 2026. That, that’s where they’re fighting right now. Minneapolis, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah, Minneapolis. By the way, would you mind getting the kids, ‘cause I can’t bear to go outside again.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I’ll go get the kids. I love

Simone Collins: you. Do you want me to, do you want me to call? Yeah. Cool. Okay, great. I love you very much and this is insane and I’ve, I’ve stepped in it too many times for us to keep recording plus it late, [00:50:00] so, right.

Malcolm Collins: Mrs. Bears, I gotta make a song about Simone and Bears.

Simone Collins: Look at the bear.

Do he needs your nose, he needs you two side with him. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Look at his face. He’s like this woman, this bear.

Simone Collins: What is going on, sir?

Malcolm Collins: That look, he is never seen himself. I think he is like, whoa.

Simone Collins: No, he likes looking at himself in the mirror. Do you see yourself? No. I don’t know. I don’t know what’s going on, but anyway yes, please. I will, I will call and thank you and I love you. All

Speaker 13: In the woods, so deep and dark. Simone walks alone at night. She meets around. I’m grizzly there. Under Pale Moon life, the man might talk, my charm might [00:51:00] live, might cause a fright, but the bear just roars and hugs real tight. What a lovely sight.

Over every man out there without care, you’ll replace the guys with pause and fur. So Simone’s got a new love story First time. Valentine

the beast. He’s wild and full of claw. She smiles and says he. Honest deer. No hidden flaws, no texts at 3:00 AM. No games, no endless calls. Just honeypots and forest walks answering nature’s calls. O chose bear, ditching [00:52:00] a. It’s really rare. You’ll trade the patriarchy for a furry. Simone’s new boyfriend’s got four legs in the end.

Now Malcolm’s left to wonder why she sides with claws and teeth while he’s out here defending men grinding his teeth. She’ll picnic with the big old brute salmon from the stream and whisper. More predictable than any man’s bad. Maybe one day she’ll come back home with bear hugs for the crew, but till then, she’s dancing wild where the tall pines grew.

Malcolm sings [00:53:00] this silly tune, half laughing, half in fear. My wife’s replaced all human kind.

With one big fuzzy, dear Simone, you chose the bear. Now. The forest is your love affair, boys. Hello and

Simone.

In this explosive episode, we break down what may be the biggest geopolitical story of the decade: a failed military coup attempt against Xi Jinping in January 2026. Top PLA leaders (including key Central Military Commission figures) were purged after an alleged raid on Xi’s hotel residence in Beijing led to a firefight and mass arrests. Xi has gutted the military leadership, leaving only loyalists in place.

We discuss:

* The timeline of purges, assassination attempts, tunnel explosions, and the leaked coup plot

* Why Xi’s consolidation of power is accelerating China’s path to collapse (demographics, food/energy insecurity, real estate bubble)

* The scary logic: Why attacking Taiwan (or elsewhere) might now make “sense” for Xi personally, even if it’s suicidal for China

* Parallels to autocracies throughout history and why centralized power always ends this way

* Why the West (and AI progress) might secretly benefit from chaos in China

* Bonus riffs on US domestic distractions (Minneapolis/ICE protests), organ harvesting rumors, and why nobody seems to care about real global inflection points

This is NOT mainstream coverage — it’s the raw, unfiltered analysis you won’t hear elsewhere. If you’re tired of slop-stream media ignoring the real threats, this is for you.

Sources & further watching: Lei’s Real Talk (summarized transcripts used), Winston & Laowai’s old China motorcycle vlogs for real cultural insights (sort videos by oldest).

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today and I mean, I’m actually excited ‘cause. There is world changing news, like, like way bigger news than the Maduro situation. Way bigger news than anything that’s happened maybe in like the last half decade,

Simone Collins: but you probably haven’t heard about it.

Malcolm Collins: Not that many people are covering it, and I don’t understand why. So,

Simone Collins: because we’re so obsessed with this little city in the United States called Minneapolis.

Malcolm Collins: I, so for clarification, there was essentially a military coup just happened in China.

Simone Collins: In China, like China,

Malcolm Collins: China, like a ma, the second major power,

Simone Collins: Indianapolis or China,

Malcolm Collins: the heads of the military.

And, and so far of the, the CMC, the committee that. Makes up the military. And I’ll put a picture on screen here. Every single [00:01:00] member of it now, this is, this is the entire top of the Chinese government.

Simone Collins: Oh. We’ve gone to all of them. I, I,

Malcolm Collins: every member, but she and the secret police head, like the guy who’s in charge of Okay.

No,

Simone Collins: that’s why I saw, yeah. There was one

Malcolm Collins: left. Is arrested or killed at this point. And the two last one of these guys who hadn’t been, had a group of military members go and try to abduct g from where he lives, which is a hotel. And there was a firefight and a bunch of people died and they locked down parts of Beijing.

Imagine.

Simone Collins: I bet they just didn’t have the LRADs. If only they had our LRADs

Malcolm Collins: in Washington. The head of our military attempted to abduct Trump, and the next day what we were talking about was some dumb piece of nonsense who got shot by law enforcement because he physically attacked them while carrying a gun.

Right? Like that’s

Speaker: an officer approaches your [00:02:00] car, be polite.

Speaker 2: Is there a

Speaker: problem, officer? And stay in your car with your hands on the wheel.

What the f**k do want motherfucker? Unless you wanna ask this,

Malcolm Collins: right? You know that, that, that video people watching, they’re like, well, they had already gotten the gun. Out of his hands before he had it when he attacked them. Right? Like, well, what do you mean? I understand? Yes, you shouldn’t shoot him after you get the gun outta his hand.

But that’s a heightened situation, okay? These are still human beings, right? If you’re in a conflict with somebody and note they have a gun, even if you successfully think you might have just knocked it out of their hands or didn’t see that, somebody just knocked it out of their hands. You’re, you’re taking fire.

I’m

Simone Collins: sorry. Yeah. I mean, the, the way I look at it is it’s, it, it’s obviously illegal to hit someone who’s crossing the [00:03:00] street like in a crosswalk. Well, and at any point, right? Yeah. But before you cross the street, you should probably look both ways, you know, like, don’t just, just walk blindly into the street.

And I think, you know, obviously. One attacking someone in some kind of, you know, federal position. They’re not law enforcement. They’re, they’re law enforcement officers, okay. Attacking a law enforcement officer and doing so well armed. Like those are sort of two things that you shouldn’t have done.

An ice shooting. We got another ice shooting.

Speaker: here. See, nobody cares.

Simone Collins: So yeah, it’s, it’s one of those, like, this shouldn’t have happened, but but the larger scheme of things though, we are talking about why is anybody talking conflict here versus.

China, China, the, the future of the country the end of a regime possibly. And this is really big.

Malcolm Collins: This is, yeah, this is a complete transformation of how the, the government in China functions and is structured. It’s going to completely change the types of actions that they are likely to carry [00:04:00] out in the future.

It completely aligns with all of my China predictions that

Simone Collins: I had. Well, I need, so I’m, I’ve spent probably three hours watching coverage of this and I still can’t really make heads or tails. There’s a tunnel, there’s an explosion, people are disappearing. Families have been arrested. Individuals. So this please break it down for people even who have been aware of this.

‘cause I think it’s actually quite confusing and I’m having trouble

Malcolm Collins: keeping track it. I’ll separate, then we’ll go into more detail. Okay?

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So the, the, the head of the PLA and then I think the head of the air force. So the two final like heads of the, the all of Chinese armed forces.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Alright.

They have been in a sort of conflict with, xi Xi Jingping for a while at this point. They both really well, wanted to kill each other basically. Now the heads of the army, I do not feel like they started it right. They were maybe against him over consolidating power.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: But obviously they’re, they’re worried about this and they’re backed by the Princeling faction.

These [00:05:00] are the people who are the descendants of the people who worked in Mao’s government and various very wealthy people in China. Right. Ma,

Simone Collins: because I, I heard that some are also, they were loyalists to Hu Genal, but not Xi Jinping. And so they,

Malcolm Collins: well, so the PLA guy, like the, the, he was a very senior official because he both had military honors in China.

Okay. Because he served in actual combat, which was a long time ago. So not a lot of people have combat medals. And he was the descendant, the son of the head of Mao’s personal bodyguard force. So he’s, oh,

Simone Collins: wow. So this is going way, way back to OG. Leaders,

Malcolm Collins: not previous administration. Basically all the, the cred connections, everything like that you could need if you were going to try an overthrow.

Right.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So anyway Xi tries to have this guy killed, right? So he he has the, so she was the,

Simone Collins: was the aggressor in this case. He

Malcolm Collins: started it then in years, so, yeah. So he has this guy’s secretary killed or one of the high level general guys killed. We’ll get to it in a second. Died mysteriously.

Okay. Then this guy has an [00:06:00] assassination attempt on him. And it looks like the United States may have helped him avoid that assassination attempt. Mm-hmm. This is when he was on a, a, a trip. And so obviously, you know, he’s like, I just have to do it now or not. Right. Then there’s this giant explosion in a tunnel,

Simone Collins: okay.

Malcolm Collins: That blew up a car and what we know about this car. This was last month. And if you’re like, I didn’t know any of this stuff, like. This is because the, the slop storm that you are in is keeping you from the important information about how the world is functioning right now. A car that had Xi Jinping’s body double blew up in that tunnel.

And the explosion, like was really under reported on in Chinese media. So we know that there was something like weird going on with it and they were trying to cover it up. So, then the two remaining guys, because he’s been doing sweeps of all of these other guys recently, like the reason you got all these exes on this picture is because he is been getting rid of everyone.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: , So where are we here? Okay. So they, they’re like, oh my God, I’m gonna be killed. I’m gonna be killed. I’m gonna be killed. [00:07:00] So what do I do next? Let’s get together and organize a capture of Xi Jinping.

So they try to corner him in because he, he moves between residences and one of the places he stays, he is a hotel that’s just for like CCP officials.

Oh.

Malcolm Collins: So they do this raid on the hotel. With their military forces to attempt to arrest him. And they had already started to put out the PR about this, like how they were gonna frame it which is like, we’re doing this to save China, to save the ccp like she is no longer.

And a lot of people could feel that way. I mean, he was definitely going in a, a, a direction that a lot of people didn’t like. Sure. It was the future of the country in, in this consolidation. And this matter if you wipe out, because I’d had a debate with somebody, and I’ve said for a long time, China is screwed.

China does not have a future. And this is where I most frequently get into debates with like the hardest core like alignment people we have. This has always been my biggest debate with,

Simone Collins: we’ve got a lot of China stands. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like a lot of people like really

Simone Collins: [00:08:00] just, well, not even like I, there’s a world in which I, I very much care about China and its people.

It’s not that I don’t care about China or don’t like China, and they do, they just somehow believe that China is. Is miraculously shielded from the effects of demographic collapse and, and not, not undermine in terms of its sovereignty. In terms of energy and food independence. Like, I, I don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: The problem is China, it’s, even if China didn’t have its current demographics, it would still be Ed.

Like their, their water situation is terrible. Their geographic security situation is terrible. Their

Simone Collins: food security. Yeah. The, the amount of food and energy that they import is, is quite high, including I think some like minerals for fertilizer. Watch,

Malcolm Collins: When you guys, so, okay. I’ll quickly explain why they’re so screwed.

You can watch your video on the feature of East Asia where we go into this. But essentially if China gets in a conflict and the strait of, of [00:09:00] Malacca is blockaded. Okay. China will not be able to get, and, and keep in mind to get its oil.

China imports something like 83% of its oil. Mm-hmm. And 86% of that 83% is coming from the Middle East. So that means that oil is coming on tankers through the Suez Canal going past India who hates China’s guts.

And then if you block a malaka it has to go around Australia who would also be anti-China in one of these situations. And then try to get through I mean this is even assuming that they have Taiwan at this point. Right. Which, which, you know. Unlikely that they’ll capture that, and we’ll get to that in a second.

It’s just, it’s just comical. They’re not gonna be able to get their oil and they’re, they’re, they don’t even produce enough food themselves. Not even close. They’re not like the United States. The United States produces tons of food. Tons of oil. We’re fine. You even if you could blockade us, which you can’t.

And, and then you’ve got the problem of, okay, so, so, so you’ve got all of that. But even though they’re importing all this food, [00:10:00] they would be making even less of their own food because they also import their fertilizer.

Simone Collins: That, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: China is just a comically cocked country. If a war does break out they, they, they, it would be one of the, it would be suicide.

It would be more suicidal than what Russia is doing right now. And, and you, you could point this out to people, you’d feel like this would be horrifying for them. And, and it’s not just that. So like, suppose they avoid war, which seems less likely now. We’ll get to why in a second. And they, they just ride this out.

Well, their demographics are terrible. A lot of their ais are basically faked. Well, what was the last interesting thing from China’s deeps seek, and I, I hate the deeps seek ai model for anyone who’s actually used it. It’s not a good model. Like ral from France is more interesting to me than deeps seek.

I actually am a big mytral stand. I’m, I’m, that’s

Simone Collins: saying a lot because Malcolm cannot stand France.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. After, after grok. I think it is for me the most useful AI model because it’s [00:11:00] both almost as smart as the mainstream models, but also extremely not safe for work tolerant. So it, it really doesn’t break on anything during stories.

I know this for my work was reality fabricator and putting together all that. So r fab.ai, if you wanna check out chat bots. But anyway, so, even if all those things weren’t the case, its entire economy is a house of cards built on a real estate bubble, which is already popped, right? Like, and that house of cards has only been righted.

‘cause a lot of people are like, oh, you know, the real estate bubble popped. Why hasn’t China collapsed? And it’s because the government basically optically shifted where their economy was to like the tech sector. But we actually actually seen the growth in the tech sector that you would need to justify this offset.

So. Comically effed country. And I, I I just mean it like comical levels. And their one hope, when I argue is the China stands. And I always point out, ‘cause I’m like, well, they would need to change X, Y, and Z, right? Yeah. And they’ll say, [00:12:00] well, they’ll do that. And I’m like, then why aren’t they doing that right now?

And they’re like, well, we will get somebody other than G in power eventually, right? And I’m like, no, you won’t because G has gutted the government of everyone competent. And they’ve always said to me, and this is why you watch this channel. ‘cause hopefully I, I, I predict things well, geopolitically, right?

They say to me, oh, Malcolm. Oh Malcolm. There’s still some competent people left. He’s hasn’t gutted everyone competent from the government. Now that’s beginning. In force because this was the final, like he has admitted this to the public. This was published in the, the mainstream Chinese news that these two individuals were traitors.

Now this has never done immediately when you’re taking out traitors like this, it’s always slow. This is basically just a declare of war, and they’ve basically just been arresting anyone with power in the country. Now and you saw this earlier was oh, what, what was his name? The, the famous, like the Elon of China. They take out Jack Ma. And you know, now he’s, he’s you [00:13:00] know, cued and can’t say anything and basically under house arrest just to make sure that everybody in China knows no matter who you are, no matter how much money you have, we still control you.

And now no one. No one can speak back. Even, you know, Jackie Chan, who’s famously like a Stan of China has said some stuff recently where he seems to be implying that one of his friends, another actor who did a lot of like charity work and stuff like that may have been taken out from the CCP simply because his charity work made them look bad.

And he implied that he, he thought that as well, right? Like mm-hmm. Because if you admit that there’s poor people in the country, well, the government says there’s not poor people. So if you’re doing charity work, you’re, you’re arguing that the government hasn’t solved poverty, they haven’t solved starvation.

Why are you filming this? Why are you showing this? Right? So, the, there, the, the China stands pushback has always been, there’s still competent people left in the government. Somebody will still take over, other than Xi a situation like this is just putting China on the pathway to be the next Venezuela.

Mm-hmm. Because what [00:14:00] would, and, and, and it, it justifiably does, this is why Autocracies are so bad. But I, I, I guess I’m gonna get to the point of this before I get into the details of this. Autocracy always ends in this scenario. This is why Nick Fuentes idea about how the United States should be run is objectively stupid.

And it’s why when people come out there and they say something like, we just need a king. We just need a monarchy. And I’m, and I’m sorry to Curtis Irving about this, because I, we like Curtis Irving, you know, we’ve had him on the show. That’s stupid. Because it leads to this always when you centralize power around a single individual, that individual’s best interest is served, IE maintaining that power because they’re gonna make mistakes sometimes, right?

Or things that undermine their rule. Like a lot of mandate of heaven things, A lot of major cities have been flooding and stuff in China recently. You know, that gives people the opportunity to, historically it was emperors when there’s natural disasters that mean they need to be replaced. Well. Oh my God, they may wanna replace me.

Right. [00:15:00] So then what do you think? You think, well, the last thing I want is anyone who’s an obvious choice to replace me left in the country. Yeah. Right. Like if, if, if you get scared like that. Right. And this, this is, this is the instate of all autocratic regimes. The reasons why monarchies worked in a historic context is because the people that could replace you, even during a coup were small.

Mm-hmm. There were very explicit rules. Like even when people were couping against the king, you needed to have somebody who had a plausible. Claim to the throne for the coup to be accepted. Like you just wouldn’t do a coup if you didn’t have anyone, because then what they would say is, well, then just everyone will do coups.

And it could just be an endless cycle of coups. Right? Which they’re right about. That’s like even back in the days of the old monarchies, they understood why you couldn’t have a non-traditional monarchy. If you, if you have a monarchy, you need a royal family. And it’s, it, it doesn’t, like in [00:16:00] Rome where they tried to do it by like choosing the next emperor at various times that never worked for more than a couple generations, right?

Like, and, and we see this from ancient Rome. It’s what ultimately led to the collapse of ancient Rome. Right? So if you’re doing a monarchy, you actually need it to be a hereditary monarchy with strict rules about hereditary procession. But that is not gonna be easy to set up within a modern context.

And, and a hereditary monarchy basically doesn’t count until it’s been hereditary for like two to three generations. You need somebody with, well, Simone would have claim to the throne. Right. You know, the descendant of George Washington’s siblings to two fold over. And he didn’t have any kids himself.

So, you know, if we’re offering King George got King Simone here, queen Simone, I think a lot of people would be down with that. You, you seem like the more even headed of the two of us.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But everyone would know that you’re driving all my choices. So it’s a two for one. All the better.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, em for em for Elia, em for Simone.

But the point being is, is this is everyone was like, oh, China is more ordered. Like the government can just make decisions and force everyone [00:17:00] to follow them. Right. And you have me in the background being like, that form of government is intrinsically unstable. It’s not going to last. Mm-hmm. You cannot do things that way.

If you attempt to, you end up with power centralizing and fewer, fewer competent people at the higher rings of power. Also, you get more corruption because you run into the secondary problem, which is now you have a bunch of dumb people around you. Okay? Which you’ve got the second issue, right? Which is you’ve gotta give these dumb people incrementally more money than they had before, right?

Like, that’s how you keep them loyal to you, because people forget to be grateful for alone because, okay, so one of the dumb guys goes to all the other four or five dumb guys, right? Who ha have a ton of power now. And he says, Hey, you helped put me in power and I’ll get you more stuff than you have right now.

Right now. Now why not put him in power, right? Mm-hmm. And so how do you prevent that if you’re number one guy? The way you prevent that, if you’re number one guy, is [00:18:00] you be like, I’ve given you literally as much as the state can afford to give you. I have, I have already maximized the corruption. I, I, you know, the, the, the other three guys are like, Hey, we can take more from the people and give it to you.

You know, nepotistic bureaucrats, and, and if that sounds plausible, then you’re at risk of a coup. But if somebody comes to you and says that, and they’re like, no, no, no, no, you really couldn’t bleed these people for anything more. Like he’s already, she’s already maxed the corruption of this, this bad boy.

Then there’s no reason to do the coup. And, and that’s basically where China is right now as a state. It’s already, we have ma and if you look at the debauchery, that the heads of these, these groups, you know, they always have their mistresses. They always have their you know, horrible, horrible scandals.

Their kids basically.

Simone Collins: Yeah. We discussed the Mistress Villages in another episode. I can’t remember the name of it, but it’s wild. Like there are entire districts known for hosting the apartments of, of the women, the kept women. Of CCP [00:19:00] officials.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and this is why people don’t wanna breed there. You know, she goes around and she says, what’s Putin?

They were talking and they were talking joyfully about how well, you know, as medical advances today, people are gonna live to 150, and everyone here knows they don’t mean normal Chinese people are gonna be live to 150. They mean this entrenched bureaucratic class is going to harvest the organs, which is a major problem in China right now.

From citizens and, and kids. Disappearing is a major issue in China right now. Under extremely mysterious circumstances. Schools covering it up, kids just like quote unquote dying in their, in their classrooms or, or in their dorms. And then their bodies disappear. You mean

Simone Collins: college students? What?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like a regular thing in China. There’s been a lot of,

Simone Collins: yeah, because presumably CCP officials want young kids origins or, or young adults, organs.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they can do it. And there’s pretty much nothing you can do. I mean, the stories are really horrifying. Like the parents have tried to even like, look at the bodies and stuff like that, [00:20:00] and the CCP won’t release them.

So I decided to do some follow up on this story and it, it has a fun and happy ending when a lawyer hired by the family attempted to conduct an independent investigation into the school. Official personnel smashed his phone and wiped his account data, according to reports with later reported that the victim’s family could no longer be contact.

A parent identified as Zu Lou wrote online. The family can’t be found anymore. The videos are gone. Anything posted from Henan is either throttled or taken down directly. Accounts are disabled. We are treated like weeds. We speak out, so they know that even a blade of grass has a temper. Parents in Henan are still watching, so the family disappeared.

Great.

Malcolm Collins: So, yeah, I mean they’re, they’re basically debauchery, maxing their society. And I think that’s one of the core reasons why nobody wants to breed, because they know that through breeding, they’re just supporting this broken system. And the only way that you can be safe against the system, and this was shown in [00:21:00] COVID.

There was a viral, viral video in China where officers that were trying to enforce the, you know, insane zero COVID policy were talking to each other and the, somebody, somebody watched them talk to each other and recorded it and they said, how do we get this, this guy to do what we want him to?

And they go, oh, his son, that’s his weakness. That that’s our leverage. Right? And everyone realized that’s the way the government sees your kids. As soon as you have them, as a way to manipulate you further. Right? And, and, and beyond that, just a resource for the ultra wealthy. And so it leads to this debauchery maxing at the, at the core of the elite within Chinese society.

And unfortunately it, it’s, it’s known by the average person now, and nobody wants to, you know, that, that’s, that’s where they’re, they’re pulling the line. But let’s get into the details of this. Any, any thoughts before I do Simone?

Simone Collins: No, that’s just, I mean, on, on that front though, one thing I do worry about, we’re already dealing with what it’s like to [00:22:00] be ruled by a gerontocracy around the world.

When you look at most world governments, the, the people in them, the legislators and the other leaders are tremendously old. And the problem is, when it comes to life extension, whether or not there’s illegal, horrific organ horrors harvesting. Life extension, especially when we’re talking about 80 plus years old, is just going to be a rich person thing.

It’s not an every person thing. You know, Brian Johnson can do, don’t die because he has insane amounts of money. Right. And, and that it just worries me that not only are only the wealthy really going to access crazy levels of life extension, but they’re also going to maintain an iron grip on power and just try to accumulate more for themselves and even further ossify terrible bureaucratic systems that are tearing the rest of us apart, which really just makes me so sad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, so. The Central Military Commission. The [00:23:00] CMC is the highest military leadership body in China. It serves the command authority over the People’s Liberation Army, PLA, which includes the Army, Navy, air Force, rocket Force, strategic support forces, as well as the people’s Armed police and militia.

Simone Collins: Is, is there a rocket force like our Space Force?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. In practice of CMC is the top decision making organ for all military strategy, operations, personnel, appointments, budgets and policy. Mm. So this literally runs everything. Right. And that’s where this picture comes from, where there’s only two people left.

The guy who’s in charge of arresting high profile people was in the organization. And she, himself and this other guy, we’ll go into a bit about him. He came outta nowhere. He’s, he’s like a new guy. He’s not like some, some all of the, all of the legacy people in this org had been taken out.

Simone Collins: Yikes.

Malcolm Collins: Which is wild. This is a complete restructuring of the, of the Chinese government. To continue here in mid-January 2026, the top [00:24:00] two operational leaders of the People’s Liberation Army, vice Chairman of the Central Military Commission, zing, Yahweh, and Chief of the Joint Staff Department, Lou and Lee.

Tim to the coup against Xi Jinping On January 18th, they moved forces to the Jing Z Hotel in Beijing, intended to capture or neutralize g dur during what they framed internally as a save the party and save the country. The plan leaked roughly two hours before execution. Only two hours before execution.

Xi was quietly evacuated, countermeasures were ordered, and a gunfight broke out. When Zane’s troops arrived, nine of Xi’s personal guards and dozens of attackers were killed. Immediately afterward, Zang Lu and their families, secretaries and a number of close associates were all arrested. Wow. And neither of them had moved their families outta the country because they thought one, that they were gonna win.

And two that would’ve alerted, gee, who is watching all of them incredibly closely.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah. It would’ve been a dead giveaway if their families [00:25:00] suddenly started heading out to non extradition countries.

Malcolm Collins: But now ev everyone in their family is gone, right? Mm-hmm. And keep in mind that this was the head of the Princeling faction in China, like the rich person faction.

So if you’re a wealthy person in China right now, everything you’re thinking about is how do I get my money and myself outta the country? Every competent person in China is thinking about this right now. And if they’re not, they’re not that competent or they are overconfident in their ability to play the system.

Because things only go down uphill from here. When, when, when, when something like this happens, right? This is terrible news for the people of China. If the coup had worked, it would’ve been fairly good news. Things could have gotten back on track. Some sanity to the way the government was organized, could have been restored.

Yeah. And these two were both. The other thing that’s important about the purges is they removed all the heads of the military command. And a lot of them, especially one of these guys, which we’ll get into in a second, was really against attacking Taiwan [00:26:00] because he said we’re, oh,

Simone Collins: see, I thought that this meant that basically their military would be on like, oh, I guess we have to rethink everything mode and not, okay, let’s go for Taiwan.

But you’re saying maybe one of the few people holding China back on TA Taiwan is now gone removing a major impediment to potential. Well, I

Malcolm Collins: mean, the question is, is why did they need to remove literally everyone who was a highly experienced person in the military? Every highly experienced individual in the military had to be removed.

Why, why is it that everyone was actual warfare scenario had to be removed? And the answer is. It’s because those were the people saying this plan is unrealistic. Mm-hmm. And so it means that what we might be about to see is a horrifyingly stupid move on China’s part. And a move that the AI safety crowd is probably salivating for because it executed.

And if Taiwan has knocked off, they make 85% of the high-end semiconductors on, on Earth, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So that’s gonna set back [00:27:00] AI a decade.

Simone Collins: I still would be completely shocked if Taiwan was invaded because I mean, just so many factors. It, it just doesn’t, it, China has a lot going on right now.

Engaging in military conflict with, with Taiwan is the last thing they need at this time. I would be shocked if in the next two years, Taiwan were invaded and I would need to reevaluate after that. But I, I, I could even see just Taiwan. Well,

Malcolm Collins: basically

Simone Collins: like five plus years. Taiwan being totally fine.

Malcolm Collins: Only a crazy person would attempt to evade Taiwan at this

Simone Collins: point.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The problem is, is

Simone Collins: that you’re just saying she is crazy.

Malcolm Collins: It’s kind of a crazy person. And on top of that,

Simone Collins: you, no, you just went on this long rant explaining, and I’m not saying rant, crazy rant, and I’m saying logical rant, explaining to people why he’s acting entirely logically. Right. But’s be position He’s backed into a corner.

Malcolm Collins: So what you Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s also logical for Xi to attack Taiwan. It’s not logical for China to attack Taiwan. What I mean by this is China would get their butts handed to [00:28:00] them. Hundreds of millions of people would likely die of starvation. The, the Oh, because

Simone Collins: of blockades and stuff.

Malcolm Collins: Because of blockades and stuff. Yeah. Oh boy. That and blackouts and, and you know, not being able to move water. It would be one of the worst human rights tragedies our planet has seen since the last time China did something.

Um,

Simone Collins: And really I did not, I, that had not even occurred to me. I don’t know.

It seems like. I didn’t hear about there being humanitarian crises in Russia due to all the blockades. Do you really think that that would be the case? China has, has spent years and years with the Belt and Road Initiative trying to shore up its supply chains. So I don’t imagine it would be a humanitarian crisis to the scale that you

Malcolm Collins: No,

Simone Collins: no, no, no.

Russia didn’t invest, Russia has not invested anywhere close to the amount that China has in shoring up. Its, its supply

Malcolm Collins: chain. The Belt and Road initiative mostly turned into a scheme for Chinese officials to just get money out of the country. You know, the, the, the reality is that there was a lot of buying toilet seats for a million dollars.

Right. Like, if you, if you actually look at the durable [00:29:00] alliances, they have quote unquote built with this, they are not anywhere that is actually useful to China. Mm-hmm. Who did, who did they need to get to, like them with the Belt and Road Initiative most if they were gonna make this happen? Right.

Well, the players that they could potentially still win over were. Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos and the Philippines. And all of these people hate them so much more now than they did historically because of just stupid after stupid, after stupid decision that China made. And they’re all pushed closer to the United States.

The only person that they may arguably have closer ties with now than historically is South Korea. But even in the case of South Korea if China goes to military conflict, south Korea’s not sitting that one out. Right? Like, they, they

Simone Collins: neither is Japan. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: no, Japan is excited for this at this point.

Japan wants to be, Japan isn’t like Germany. Okay,

Simone Collins: well, they gotta take that nice [00:30:00] naval fleet for a little spin, you know? What have they been able to do aside from. Move their boats in threatening locations.

Malcolm Collins: Germany got cued by World War ii and now they enjoy cing themselves. They would not. Japan has, since World War II been dying for a chance to regain their

Simone Collins: military.

Well, it hasn’t. Their, their, their newest prime minister, the new Margaret Thatcher of, of Japan. The successor to Shinzo Abe is. Isn’t she investing more in, what is it called? The Yes, more in the military public defense.

Malcolm Collins: And their, their military is pretty good. Like their navy is pretty solid. And it’s important, not only that, but their technology is pretty solid as well.

Ke keep in mind you know, if, if you’re going to an AI war or a drone war, having Japan and South Korea on your side is a pretty useful thing to have. Now

no

Simone Collins: me favor.

Malcolm Collins: The, the, the what the reason I was saying Xi may still do it is okay, [00:31:00] so China is increasingly hostile. They are dealing with an economic collapse.

It’s all blamed on she there isn’t anyone else to point the blame at anymore because there’s no one else to say is corrupt and kick it outta of the government. Right? And

Simone Collins: so now that is the problem of getting rid of all the other leadership, although it, I I wanted to actually ask about this. Is it just the military leadership?

I mean, there are many other facets of CCP governance, surely. Those are not disrupted and everything else is normal. Well, there’s

Malcolm Collins: been arrests throughout those. The military is just the most extreme example.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Okay. So, so, okay.

Malcolm Collins: If you saying here so if you so if you’re in, she’s position here, right?

Like you’re trying to control, consolidate power.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: You say, okay, the economy’s failing. Everyone’s blaming me. Or I know the economy’s about to start failing, and everyone will start blaming me, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what do you do to avoid that? You attack Taiwan?

Simone Collins: Oh no. ‘

Malcolm Collins: cause then you say, well, the economy’s failing because of the blockades.

The [00:32:00] economy’s failing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or we, we, we can’t do elections right now. We have to shut down all political processes. Yep. ‘cause we’re in a state of emergency. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: no one’s even going to, like, the international community isn’t even going to care if he starts assassinating top officials during a sea on Taiwan.

Right. Like, they’re only gonna care about the Taiwan thing. Right. Basically it gives him car blanche a a anyone who’s been involved in a protest now just execution time. Right. Like it gives him the excuse for mass executions. It gives him the excuse for mass arrest. It gives him an explanation for why the economy is failing.

It gives him a nationalist push with the citizen body. It is a smart thing to do at a him level. Now it would cause a human rights catastrophe. Many times within Central China, it would be the death nail of China. In the same way Russia’s attack on the Ukraine was the death nail of Russia. Mm-hmm. Many times worse than the Holocaust.

It would be Holocaust in his own people essentially. I, I’m talking in terms of sheer numbers but like, what do you do? And, and the other thing I note here [00:33:00] is this is not necessarily good for us before I go further on this. One point I wanted to make about China, which some people often forget about China, is the CCP has been a fairly good enemy for the United States to have as our core political opponent.

Yeah. Before them we were dealing with the Soviet Union and that was constant, like cold wars, like actual wars, like, you know, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, you know, just constantly this stuff. Right. China doesn’t get us involved in that nonsense. Right. Before that it was the Nazis. Right. We had to actually fight them.

That sucked. I don’t wanna do that nonsense again.

And note here, I don’t want to downplay how much you know, the whole fentanyl thing sucks that they’re flooding our country. Whi, how much the TikTok thing sucks. They’re flooding our country, whi. But these things are infinitely better than like a Vietnam war or a World War ii.

Malcolm Collins: Like, and I pointed out now that I think that the [00:34:00] next multipolar world is gonna be the United States and Israel. Because Europe is obviously collapsing as a power center and has their the AI bans and their low fertility rates. So the only place where you see decent fertility rates other than the United States and good AI technology is Israel.

And, and they show a lot of potential for dynamism. They can pretty much expand wherever they want with the region. ‘cause there’s nowhere around them boxing them in. As soon as Europe is done, cocking them you know, what is it? Territory acquisition, block blocking them cock blocking them. Because that’s, that’s, I mean, that’s the, they would just expand if they could.

And, and so Israel is in a position where we’re the next world. Weights is gonna likely be the United States and Israel. Can we stay allies when we’re the two top powers? I think it’s unlikely. Like we’ll be able to be more friendly in the same way that like we’ve moved to a friendlier stance with every Nazis to communist, to China to CCP.

I think we’ll move yet again, friendlier with Israel. But that’s gonna be a very, that’s a whole [00:35:00] other lecture going into, but he has a reason to do it. Okay. Now to continue here. And the, and the military leaders who would’ve said no to this, they had a reason to say no. Like, we can’t win. What do you mean he may not care about winning?

Right. That, that may not be the point. So a few days later on January 23rd, China’s. Ministry of National Defense publicly confirmed the arrest of Zang Udan in Louise Lin for serious violations of discipline and law. A rare harshly worded editorial from the PLA daily directly claim. Both men accused them of betraying G’S trust under minding CMC authority, shattering military uniting and damaging the political system and combat readiness.

This was the fastest public condemnation ever for such a high level PLA arrest.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Now note here that the condemnation was interesting because it was published as an editorial written by a newspaper that didn’t publish it. Like they sent it to another newspaper that then published it, but they didn’t publish anything about this event.

And then [00:36:00] the newspaper that published it redacted it. Not redacted it, but it just disappeared from their wed link. And I think it’s back up now, but basically what we’re skiing there is there is. An internal power struggle right now. Like some people are like, Hey, we don’t know that this has played out yet.

These guys might end up getting out. Like, we don’t wanna end up on their bad side. Like what happens with the, so what we’re seeing is. People in China are like, God, I don’t, I don’t know what to do next. Right? Like,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Is, is there gonna be an actual full scale co? My, my answer is probably not. Xi has taken out what he can because China is so hierarchical, you cut the head off a snake, you stop the snake.

So, this is bad for anyone who’s hoping for a coup in China.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: The coup failed and triggered sweeping emergency measures across the PLA. The general staff department with effectively suspended operational control shifted to direct encrypted telegrams from the CMC, and the entire force was placed on level one combat readiness.

Now, keep in mind, direct encrypted telegrams to the [00:37:00] CMC. The CMC is now just she and the head of police, right? Like,

Simone Collins: well, I’m sure their meetings are a lot more efficient now. So there’s that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, true movements were frozen, personal mobile phones were collected for inspection. So God knows if you got any, any email about any of this, any text about any of this.

And mass political study sessions have been ordered. These steps treated the military itself as potentially an internal threat and significantly raise the risk of mutiny from the lower ranks. Mm-hmm. Either basically saying all of you, you know, we might be coming for you next and not now.

That’s what every low level person is debating everyone who’s thinking of mutiny. Do I try to do something now before I’m taken, but do I even have the operational capacity to do something now? Right. Like you need the whole military to be on board and that’s harder to do with the heads of the military under arrest.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yikes.

Malcolm Collins: So, for the other information you heard about during the November December trip to Moscow, Jang Wong reportedly survived an assassination [00:38:00] attempt. And this is the one that the United States possibly warned him about and helped him out of. Shortly after returning from Russia, the PLA Air Force Commander died under unclear circumstances.

So this is the guy, that guy who was secretary, probably murdered and an explosion in Beijing Tunnel killed a man and described as inner circles or rumors as being she’s body double along with several bodyguards. Now, note when we talk about China and rumors, it’s hard to get anything exact.

Yeah. But the same people who were saying these rumors were right about this attempted coup before any mainstream source claimed that this was an attempted coup, which makes me think that they were right on this stuff as well. Basically documenting this inner war that’s been happening in China.

Hmm. In terms of what’s going on in China right now, power outages are hitting parts of Beijing. There are armored vehicles on the streets. Dissident sources warn people to avoid Chong Avenue because of possible remnant counter moves by loyalists. The arrests were overseen by [00:39:00] Kai Qui, head of the Central Security Borough in Wang, Z’s ninth Bureau.

And an open letter began circulating online openly accusing Xi of tyranny, economic plunder in isolating China while calling on military officers and the public to revolt against him and the Polita Boroughs standing committee. So, broader impact on the PLA and its leadership right now. The purge.

Has left the central military command, gutted only. She and Vice chairman, he won Don remain as full CMC members four theater level. Full generals are left standing. Dozens of senior officers have been removed over the past year, including most of the previous Eastern Theater Command leadership responsible for the Taiwan contingencies.

The Easter Theater itself has been on an internal cleanup since September, 2025 with the new acting commanders focus on rooting out influence from the SAC previous leaders rather than preparing for actual operations. [00:40:00] Mm-hmm. So to, to note here if you’re like, where am I reading this from?

Basically everything that I found on this is way too wordy. Like Lay’s Wheel Real Talk has about four videos on this event. I found them to be the best sources. So she’s

Simone Collins: great. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: She is good, but she talks so slowly. And she goes way too much into detail about some things that I just don’t care about.

So I took transcripts of her videos and I put them into ai. And I summarized them and tried to organize them tighter for you guys so that we could get to just the juicy bits that explain the stuff where you’re thinking like, wait, what? Like, what, what? And

Simone Collins: we wish we could go through more primary sources, but we’re not familiar with what Chinese language publications are and are not accurate and reputable beyond that.

She has a lot of on the ground sources in China that report to her thing, report things to her directly. So she’s just access to information that we don’t, I, I wish we could do more primary research, but I’ve always really struggled with China in this way. It’s, it’s [00:41:00] very difficult as someone who is not a native language speaker, but also not on the ground in China to actually know what’s going on.

And I know this too, just having. In my college years, traveled to China in different parts of China. Quite a lot, like some even rather rural, more remote areas where there just were zero Western tourists. There’s all the reading I did did not give even anywhere close to an accurate representation of what these things were ultimately like.

So,

Malcolm Collins: well, what, what, what shocked you the most?

Simone Collins: Just elements of life and culture and the way that people lived in different parts of China. How cities were different. I mean a lot of it’s stuff that’s more, I guess you could say tacit than explicit. Like people wouldn’t write about this stuff anyway.

They wouldn’t write about

Malcolm Collins: the

Simone Collins: yield, the foods or the way the foods are prepared or the random things you would find hiking on trails or.

Malcolm Collins: If you want to see this style of China that she is talking about, I [00:42:00] would strongly suggest you check out the content of Winston and Laowai. They have now branded themselves as China fact chasers.

Do not look at their more recent videos. If

Simone Collins: you go back to the way, like pre 2018 stuff, I would say.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so they used to live in China and what they would do is they would put cameras on top of their motorcycles and they’d just drive around the countryside

Simone Collins: city, their motorcycle helmets. Yeah, they would, I think they would both be micd and they would both be riding motorcycles.

Together on, on the same road, but they would have GoPros on their helmets and just be riding around. It was so cool to watch ‘cause you just go on the roads in China

Malcolm Collins: and then they made two documentaries that are in this style that you can watch on Amazon.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And after leaving China, they have become a sort of anti-China critics.

When they were in China, they couldn’t say anything against China. Right. And I find them to be. Entertaining, the most entertaining people who cover China. I have seen all of their videos, I think. But

Simone Collins: I think they have too. And, and what I loved so much about them was that was the closest I ever got after being in China myself, to seeing what China was [00:43:00] actually like.

‘cause unless you’re there, unless you’re like in the real actual restaurants, you’re, you’re basically seeing the media equivalent of what Western tourists to North Korea see. Right. You’re like, you have a minder. You’re only staying in very specific places. You have blinders on essentially, and you don’t

Malcolm Collins: Well, and what they show you is as a non-Chinese person, there’s some towns where you can’t even get a hotel.

Right. Like it is, it is that hard if you don’t have your government license. So you’re just not gonna see this in a way. This is very hard to see this through anyone else’s eyes. I think they’ve done the best job of any two humans of documenting Chinese culture. Yeah. And what I wish they had done.

Instead of moving to be anti-China YouTubers. I think just if anyone who knows them is watching this, I think they should move to doing what they used to do. But in other countries, no, that would be delightful. I would love to do that in Peru across the United States. I’d love to see somebody

Simone Collins: do that.

Totally. Yeah. I’d actually stay in hotels actually. Yeah. My, my best experience is in terms of really getting what it’s like to be in China, were. [00:44:00] Leave major cities, leave hotels, and just take buses everywhere. I wouldn’t say it was pleasant, but even if you’re not allowed to stay in certain towns or stay in certain hotels, you’re gonna see what it’s really like when you take public transport everywhere.

Especially if it’s in rural areas.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And it, yeah, I mean, they had their motorcycles. I mean, that was a sort of,

Malcolm Collins: you can’t do that anymore. By the way, Simone, they know, have government ID to track you. Mm-hmm. So they were sort of the last generation where you could even get away with what they did. No, but the point I’m making here is Lay’s real talk is the best channel if you want sort of underground gossip.

And you’re okay with listening for a really long time because she’s better than them at that ‘cause she has more in insights CCP. Insurrectionist group contacts than they have. But anyway, to continue here and I’ll note here, the people who seem to understand China the least are the ones who work the most with China, is what I found.

Basically anyone who’s ever done business with China has no idea how China operates. And I think it’s because you’re sort of forced to put on blinders if you’re doing business with China [00:45:00] or you can lose business contacts or ability to do business in China. And people are underestimating how much that is corrupting their vision of how bad things are actually for China.

Simone Collins: Well, if you’re being told the sales pitch, if you’re doing business in China, it’s because there are Chinese businesses trying to get you to invest in them or some way, or buy from them in some way. So of course you’re gonna be given this, well, I mean, you have to turn around and do that sale pitch to other people.

100%. Yeah. ‘cause that, that is actually how I first. Discovered China. My my dad worked in a medical field selling medical devices and then would go to China for trade shows and would use his airline points to let me, as a young teen sometimes fly with him on business trips and then just like crash in his hotel and do whatever it is I did during the day, wander the streets while he did business meetings.

But sometimes I’d go to the business meetings at night and oh my God, I hate Chinese business meetings. They’re the worst ‘cause you have to drink. Right? So, I mean, they didn’t make me [00:46:00] drink, but what I’m saying is my experience in those business meetings was so different from my experience walking the streets as a teen girl just randomly like by myself.

Mm-hmm. And yeah, 100%. There is it? Yeah. And, and I, I totally agree with you. People who are doing business in China don’t listen to what they say. It’s not that what they’re saying isn’t 100% true. They’re not lying to you. They’re just not being given a

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, they’re being forced to buy into the propaganda to an extent.

And they don’t realize that when they then turn around and tell somebody else, oh, you know, I’m working with this person in China. They’re, they’re part selling the narrative of Chinese internal stability. Mm. When, you know, when I look at my friends in China, like Stanford MBAs and stuff like that, like, they’ve gone like completely ha Kiko Maori, like off the grid, not doing anything.

Like, that’s the state of like actual educated China right now. Is, is not working, haven’t left their house since COVID sort of stuff. Not, not all, not everyone. But this is like actually still a [00:47:00] thing. Like, and I think that people don’t realize how much China never woke up from COVID. And, and it sort of entered a different state when that happened, but to continue here, what, who’s this guy who survived?

Right? I, I, I saw all this and I was like, I wanna know more about this guy, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So Zang, Shing Min is still in place as a central military commissioner or sorry, at the CMC because he is widely regarded as one of G’s most reliable, loyal, and incorruptible figures within the military leadership.

His survival is not accidental, it’s tied directly to his role in track record. So he has long headed the CMC Discipline Inspections Commission, the military’s internal watchdog, making him the chief enforcer of these anti-corruption campaigns. Was the PLA. October, 2025. During the force plenum, he ong then A CMC Vice Chairman was purged and expelled.

Zang Zin was immediately promoted to replace him as they second race vice chairman of the CMC, elevating him from a regular member to one of the uniform positions. So he didn’t move into a position within [00:48:00] this organization that everyone else has been kicked out of until October, 2025. Like again, very new blood here.

Multiple reports describe him. It’s incorruptible, a strong supporter of G’s systemic purge policy and who enjoys direct presidential favors. He embodies the loyalty and discipline model Xi wants at the top. Analysts note that his job literally involves rooting out disloyalty and corruption. So he’s the one holding the knife in these purges, not the target.

As long as he keeps basically feeding g people’s heads, he keeps his job and he’s gonna stay around. So he’s not, it’s not like he’s quaking in his boots ‘cause everyone else has been kicked out here. Mm-hmm. In regards to the, the competence of what’s left the leaders were often battle tested or technically skilled, eg.

Rocket force exports or operational commanders leaving gaps filled by political appointees because of loyalty over expertise. This is eroded military effectiveness which already we had a lot of reason to question was analysts noting potential delays in readiness of six to 12 months for [00:49:00] Eastern theater recovery.

Wow. And, and broader party inefficiencies. So yeah, that’s where we are in China right now. It is a very, I mean, it’s a fascinating time to be alive. It’s, it’s, it’s an interesting thing if people say, is this a good thing? Or a bad thing for America China was going to die either way. This moves their death closer and sooner.

And if that’s a good thing to you, then this is a good thing,

Simone Collins: or, well, I mean, is, is this more just what one would expect given the inevitable incentives? Well, the, the obvious writing on the wall incentives and headwind slash tailwinds that China is facing, isn’t this more just exactly what we would, I mean, we could never say, well, I think this exact thing is gonna happen, but.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I was a coin shake

Simone Collins: ups like this,

Malcolm Collins: this, it was a coin flip, whether this succeeded. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It, it is no longer a coin flip. What happens [00:50:00] next? If this had succeeded, it could have been very good for China and potentially the world, especially if America had helped organize this, right? Mm-hmm.

Now we’re in a situation where it’s, it’s, it only gets worse for China. And, and note here, if we talk about a military invasion of Taiwan this also could be a good thing for human civilization. One, if it, it gives us time to adjust to AI’s increasing ally increasing capabilities these days.

You know, because it will delay technology so much. So that would be really, really positive. The, the second thing is, is if Taiwan and, and Taiwan is gonna scuttle their factories, if they’re invaded, right? Like, these, the China’s not gonna get the capacity to produce these semiconductors simply because they take Taiwan, right?

Did that happens,

Simone Collins: we’re just gonna go full scorched earth.

Malcolm Collins: The I, from what I’ve heard, the factories are already rigged to detonate.

Simone Collins: Oh my Lord, that’s terrifying.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, why wouldn’t you? It’s your core economic asset. You need to have leverage over it. You need to have something you can negotiate [00:51:00] with.

Mm. And so if these factories go boom e even if China takes them, they probably won’t be able to operate them because nobody’s gonna give them the parts. And to make semiconductors, you need a giant international the supply chain. Right? So if, if China takes it where is global semiconductor manufacturing going to center?

The answer I think is pretty obvious to people who are not stupid is the United States is going, it, it will take us time. But we will likely become the next head of this, and that only gives us more power. So whatever. Whatever. I don’t like that they’re doing it, but should we intervene? Taiwan has a, a birth rate under one, potentially the lowest in the regions.

I’ve seen numbers as low as 0.7. Why? Why would you do anything to save a country that’s not going to exist in a couple generations? Like, why, why would you risk your blood to save a country that’s not going [00:52:00] to exist? Now? Would we do some blockades? Of course. I think, I think that makes a lot of sense. Just to, you know, make sure that China doesn’t go crazy with this.

Especially if, if you make this too easy on them. But is it, does it make sense to intervene to save them? No, I think it makes sense to do the blockade and that, and that’s where you get the big human rates, crisis rate with all the starvation and, you know, a multi cost, I guess I’d call it. So.

Simone Collins: Yikes.

Malcolm Collins: I, I gotta put that scene from the hilarious and like YouTube skit where a guy gets taken to the multiverse and he realizes he’s the only one from a universe where Hitler didn’t win. And they’re like

Speaker 6: We, what we’re trying to do right now is save not just your world, but every world in the multiverse. All right? Trillions upon trillions of lives, all right? Like, like, like three Holocaust. How big will your Holocaust?

As a side note here, if you try to look this up, because I decided to ask an AI like, has anything new come out? And it’s like, well, a lot of what you’re talking about is what’s going through the rumor mill in [00:53:00] China watcher circles. But no, no major news outlet in China has reported it as confirmed yet.

And it’s like China’s not gonna report this as confirmed. How, how do you think this works? You think the CCP is like, yeah, we had an attempted coup, like the top generals tried to arrest Xi Jinping. No. No. That’s not the way any of this works. And if that’s what you need to report on a story, you’re not gonna get that story to the public.

Right. Everyone else on the war council was arrested and then immediately admitted to be arrested by China Public News, which has never happened during one of these purges before. Something super unique is going on and no one is talking about it.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. Anyway.

Simone Collins: Oh God.

Malcolm Collins: But the point here being this is, this is an inflection point for humanity and people online are focused on some streamer who was [00:54:00] caught with CP and, and, and some, you know, why, what are you people doing? This is like literally one of the most important things in human civilization right now.

Simone Collins: I just think it goes to show that no one really cares. Same with demographic apps. People just don’t really care. They’ve already priced it in and you can see it in the rampant nihilism that both exists in China and the United States and other countries too. People don’t think money matters anymore.

They’re never gonna get a house. They know they’re not gonna get any social benefits. In old age Geron, autocracies run everything and are just voting themselves more benefits. Recently on X, there was a lot of discussion about this $6,000 tax credit that is going to be sent to boomers and retired people as part of the, I think, working families tax cut, because that makes sense.

And everyone on X is like, great. Okay, so my [00:55:00] like child tax credit is capped out at 2,500, but retired people who neither have children at home nor are working, are getting $6,000. Explain this to me. So anyway.

Malcolm Collins: The

Simone Collins: Jerry talk. It doesn’t surprise me. It doesn’t surprise me. The world is burning. This is, everyone understands, of course, China’s falling apart.

Of course, we have no future. At least we can just gossip about so and so. Who’s pervy? At least we can talk about the, the fight. You know, what did, what did Aspen Gold call it in Minnesota? GGA, like return of Karens GGA, the

Malcolm Collins: return of Karens. Oh my God. So there was this cool game

Simone Collins: Yeah. For

Malcolm Collins: folks till too, back in the day.

Yeah. And people would be protesting stupid stuff and stuff like that. And you could go out and like, like, like, you know, b. And do GTA things to the protesters. [00:56:00] If, if you felt like it I think it would be really fun for some based person to make a GTA style open world game that takes place right now

Simone Collins: in Minnesota with Ice Pro.

What I, what I see though, and I mean, what you also see with these Ice Pro tests is that there’s just a lot of people out there who have so much pent up rage and displaced aggression that they’re just taking it out on ice officers, that they just wanna go out with their little, little whistles. They’re super annoying whistles, and they’re, they’re screams and they just wanna yell at someone who’s in a position of authority because on all sides of the political spectrum, people are super fed up with positions and authority.

So if you’re on the left, and if you. Are against what ICE is doing. An easy way to express that displaced aggression and to whi, which has been shown in research to actually be very effective expressing displaced aggression. Like if you’re a mouse that’s being stressed out, [00:57:00] taking it out on another mouse that reduces your cortisol levels more than a mouse.

That is, that is not working

Malcolm Collins: on our chat bot platform right now, our, our fab ai. Literally, I would make this game and you know what, I, I would try to make it that there be at least three factions and so you can join the anti-ice side or you can join the pro ice side, or you can join, we probably just have a.

A a, a pro like meme. Burn everything down.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. Run down. Everyone run.

Malcolm Collins: No, literally To make everyone infinitely mad at us to make the most offensive game in history would be the the goal of this. And I bet that game would sell so bad.

Simone Collins: What? No. Why? When apparently people feel like they have license to do the real thing.

It’s as though imagine, you know, you’re some esoteric rich sociopath that wishes they could hunt humans for sport, but then they discovered that they [00:58:00] could with free license. That is basically, I think, how many people actually feel about these ice protests. Like, oh wait, I’m allowed to just beat up law enforcement officers with impunity.

I mean, they’re discovering now that, oh, actually I might end up getting shot because they’re gonna, you know. Respond. But I think that’s a lot of what’s going on is they just feel like, well, I’m a US citizen. They don’t, they’re not allowed to do anything to me, so I am going to do all this. I’m gonna create a database of all their license plates and I’m gonna go around and track them and terrorize them and like

Malcolm Collins: ripping up their cars and stuff and

Simone Collins: taking

Malcolm Collins: and running

Simone Collins: away what they’ve done.

They feel like they can do so with impunity and to a great extent, a lot of the things that they’ve done have not been met with.

Malcolm Collins: Frankly. I think there needs to be more lethal force. I think Trump needs to change the laws so that disrupting the stuff can just be met with lethal force. Because when you see stuff like people ripping apart ice vans stopping and harassing random people in the streets [00:59:00] because they’re driving vans that could plausibly be ice vans.

It’s just horrifying what we’re seeing now. Right? Like they’re basically turning on any random person they think they can. We are seeing the true horror. Of this faction, and it’s, and it’s, it’s wild that it’s happening where we’re seeing all of this fraud, where we actually know that these are actively benevolent groups who are stealing money from the poor people like that.

That is literally what the, these illegal immigrants are doing in these areas. They’re running, they’re not just like people scared little people looking for a place to stay. They, they’re, they’re like actively running multi-billion dollar scams that we have documented at this point that are directly stealing from poor people and mothers.

Right? Like, I don’t why, why is, why is shutting this down controversial? But we, I mean, we know why it’s controversial. That’s what we talk about on this channel. So, you know, that’s where we are.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Crazy

Simone Collins: times. But we are very curious to see what happens with China.

Malcolm Collins: Very curious. Do you have any prediction?

What happens [01:00:00] next? I think she consolidates his power. Mm-hmm. I think it was in a year he might even begin to be making more aggressive moves about attacking somebody. Does he necessarily go after Taiwan? No. He might go after some parts of Russian territory if he thinks Russia is cheap enough and it would be an easy enough victory.

Mm-hmm. But the problem is, is that if they can make friendly enough with Russia, then they can run oil veins through Russia and not have to worry as much about the block hates. So the question is really just like, what, what calculation does he do? Mm-hmm. Are we gonna see more crackdowns? Yes.

Is China gonna get more brutal? Yes. Is their economy gonna continue to collapse? Yes. Are they gonna continue to pretend to be making advancements in the sciences that they’re not actually making? Yes.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That’s, that’s sort of where we always China to very bleak. And, if I lived in China right now, I’d be getting out.

I just don’t see how there’s any future left. And

Simone Collins: a lot of people already have gotten out. A lot of people have been doing everything they can. [01:01:00] It’s, it just, it has just been difficult for, I think that the challenge is if you are a person who actually can get out, meaning you’re a person of means and wealth, and it’s very difficult to get your wealth out of the country.

Which is why many people, for example, are using IVF clinics and surrogacy do have babies in the United States that are US citizens who can have, you know, they can slowly transfer their wealth to them. I remember I watched it one point, this fascinating YouTube video. On essentially the money laundering process whereby,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, this is where anchor babies are actually good for the us.

So we, they, we, we then siphon money from China. Now, obviously this hurts things like real estate prices, don’t get me wrong. I, I, I know that, right? But it hurting real estate prices because real estate is more, I

Simone Collins: mean, more than boomers.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I mean, it’s, it’s, it is helping boomers, right? When, when we hurt real estate prices, we typically help the boomers who own the real estate.

Who are predominantly Americans. The, the bidding up of the price of real estate predominantly helps Americans, just not the Americans we wanna help, which are the boomers, [01:02:00] you know, we need to send them to maid, right? You know? Mm-hmm. But what, what I’m putting on is broadly, it makes America stronger to have more money to take rich people from other countries, even if it is very annoying if you live in a city.

But then why are you living in a city You knob

Simone Collins: Anyway, I love you.

Malcolm Collins: Love you too.

Simone Collins: Life is good.

Malcolm Collins: Every show that I watch regularly, I don’t think that there are any which do as much introversion of evergreen deep knives into things. Content and news related content, or even also including like me, more type stuff, culture, war type stuff.

Simone Collins: I am

Malcolm Collins: like Rose says Desu is like only memes.

Asma gold is like only news. As

Simone Collins: does game coverage too. He does game game stuff.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he does game stuff too. Mm. Leaflet [01:03:00]

Simone Collins: and streamer gossip. He does gossip, but like for a very specific community. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He does gossip. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I love gossip.

Malcolm Collins: That’s not really like that. More evergreen stuff. Like whiter theories and things like that.

Probably Ed Do was just watching one of his stream. He was doing one with Aiden who got back to me about being on our stream, but we never organized a date. And then they stopped following up. So we’ve got a get that mm-hmm. Aiden Palin or something. She, she, she has a good channel. And then there’s a new one who I reached out to recently Kirsha I mean, we’ve done stuff on her before you reached

Simone Collins: out to her.

Malcolm Collins: Never reached out to her again. I was just like, Hey, you know, really should go on. You know, we went viral again recently, so Mary, and now our channel’s, you know, getting closer to being the size of hers. So,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: In terms of like average stream numbers, so it’d be weird for her to say no, but no, people

Simone Collins: aren’t, I mean, guest appearances on our show haven’t performed well, and so we just [01:04:00] don’t really do them anymore.

I can’t,

Malcolm Collins: well, some have, if the person’s particularly famous.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean our, our, I think our best performing episode ever is ho math, isn’t it? When he came on,

Malcolm Collins: Ones that have done really well have been leaflet Curtis Jarvin ho math like they have to be famous in our community. Mm-hmm. Can’t just take like a random person, which I think a lot of people like don’t get.

They’re like, oh, can’t you just put on anyone? No, unfortunately

Simone Collins: not. So

Malcolm Collins: really damage us in the metrics. The what was I gonna say? How did, how did the episode, what were the comments about it?

Simone Collins: Overwhelmingly, people just had to chime in to say, sure, there’s demographic collapse in India ‘cause they’re all in Canada now.

Or just insert wherever they are. And they were just super mad about India sending all, its, it is the largest source. It’s the it terms of countries in the world that are producing the most immigrants. That is to say people leaving the country. India does [01:05:00] take the cake. That is absolutely true. And so I think that can, that can hide or obscure the fact that India is not, that doesn’t somehow protect it from demographic collapse.

In fact, it of course makes it worse if your people are leaving the country in droves on top of the fact that urbanization within the country is driving lower fertility. So India’s extra screwed, but people don’t really think about it because they feel like they’re being surrounded by Indian immigrants.

Malcolm Collins: Now you tell me if I should drink this. Okay. I just opened this and it with really pressurized and a lot of air came out of it, and that’s not normal for this. Which means something was growing in it, right? Yes. And, and now it tastes carbonated, but not bad.

Simone Collins: So have you produced the, is it fermented now?

Malcolm Collins: It, well, hold on. Actually I’ll taste. Does it have like a.

Yeah, it’s got like a little vinegar taste.[01:06:00]

Simone Collins: You’re the sensitive one.

Malcolm Collins: She, my, my horrible wife ate spoiled. So we were watching apothecaries Diaries and she’s always like trying to point it in herself and they have to keep poisoning away from her ‘cause she’s like addicted to this stuff. And finds it very fun to, to learn about new types of poisons.

And my wife ended up getting very, very sick. She admitted this to me ‘cause she knew I’d be mad at her. Got very sick from eating expired nuts almond paste. And so I was like, okay, well at least we have notified that it’s the almond paste and you’re not gonna do that again. So she s butter me today.

She’s like, I finished that almond butter. I knew it was making me sick, but I just couldn’t help it.

Simone Collins: Expired food is. The most delicious food because you don’t have to feel guilty dwindling the household supplies you are because else can eat it. It’s too much of a li liability. I, I am of [01:07:00] oaky stock. When the Dust bowl hit Oklahoma, all the farming families fled.

Except for my ancestors who are like, this is nice. I’m going to stay here. I like eating sand and, and rotten spoiled food. Let’s do this. Buckle in. And they were still there post World War II having a blast.

Malcolm Collins: But may, maybe it was the right choice if you’ve read, you know, books for the period.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Right.

Yeah, no, we we’re, we’re so against the concept of, of migrants that we would never be migrants. That’s too disagree.

Malcolm Collins: When the Indian one people were like, Hey, you guys, like the H one B thing is like a problem. And we’re like, we said the H one B thing with a problem. We were super clear on that. Like, I don’t know, we said literally that you should just have requirements of not hiring above a certain percentage of Indians.

Like, I don’t know how you could get more extreme on that issue. Like how, how, how extreme do they want us to be?

Simone Collins: I dunno, [01:08:00] man. But I, I, I understand now from many anecdotes that people have shared with us in comments and direct messages that a lot of people have been very personally touched by this.

And it’s extremely frustrating. It’s one thing to see something abstractly in the news and to get involved in the, oh, we’re going in for more. Okay. The, the polarized mistake, isn’t it? I can see the bubbles in it.

Malcolm Collins: Well, the bubbles got up to, like, here, when I first opened it,

Simone Collins: oh. But you just discovered that you like fermented pomegranate juice, so you could ask ai, not that it’s gonna give you a, an ironclad response.

I just heard of some influencer talking about how chat GPT insisted to her friend that hemlock was just carrot sprouts. It’s like, it’s fine. It’s not hemlock,

Malcolm Collins: it was just carrot sprouts says [01:09:00] hilarious.

Simone Collins: Don’t worry about it.

Malcolm Collins: AI’s trying to kill us one person at a time.

Simone Collins: I mean, were they wrong or were they right?

Was this a mistake? I don’t know. I don’t know. You tell me.

Malcolm Collins: Alright,

Simone Collins: sorry.

Speaker 10: So in a blizzard to change the chicken’s water to give them hot water. ‘cause their, their, their water is frozen. The cold seems to have messed with the heater for the water. So warm growler, the water bowls, we’ll just change out the bowls.

Hmm.

Speaker 11: Right cut.

India’s population bomb is fizzling out faster than most people realize. Over 5,000 government schools now sit completely empty (zero students!), with numbers surging 24% in just two years — mostly in states like Telangana and West Bengal. We’re diving deep into India’s collapsing fertility rates (many regions already sub-1.5 or lower), why certain ethnic/religious groups are disappearing faster than others, and what this means for India’s future demographics.

We compare this to Japan and South Korea’s school closures due to depopulation, bust the myth that “India will outbreed everyone,” and discuss why Indian immigrants in the US maintain stable fertility (~1.6, similar to whites) while resisting aspects of modern urban culture. Topics include:

* In-group hiring preferences & H-1B controversies

* Cultural isolation that protects against fertility collapse

* Nuanced pros/cons of Indian communities in America (safety, values, economic contribution vs. potential downsides)

* Nick Fuentes’ recent anti-Indian rhetoric — is it fair, or controlled opposition?

* Gender dynamics, arranged marriages, and why some Indian cultural traits help resist “urban monoculture”

This is a raw, unfiltered conversation on natalism, migration, ethnicity, and the future of populations. If you’re interested in demographics, pronatalism, or immigration realism — hit play.

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about the disappearance of Indians, the, the Indian Ethnic Group of India. I will start with a interesting article here, over 5,000 government schools in India. Sit empty with zero students, 70% in the states of Al and West Bongo.

Is this another

Simone Collins: Somali fraud problem or what?

Malcolm Collins: This, this from the natal subreddit? No. So these are, these are in India. Their schools are sitting empty because of low birth rates, not fraud.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, not fraud. Just abandoned. Wow. Like that very sad documentary about Korean schools where they had one student left and they were keeping the school open and they were like, it was really creepy because they would like do tours of the school.

You know how Koreans are like very obsessed with, but there was

Simone Collins: this one kid sweeping up a classroom that only teacher, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: The teachers, the staff were like, they kept everything spotless for, for one kid, like all of the classrooms and everything. It’s [00:01:00] like when

Simone Collins: Albert King concert Albert died and Queen Victoria like insisted on having his.

Breakfast made each morning and all these things set out for him. Like his clothes laid out. ‘cause she, yeah, no, it’s, it’s really

Malcolm Collins: weird the way, but it’s a grieving

Simone Collins: thing. This is not a function thing, it’s a grieving thing.

Malcolm Collins: There’s the Japanese town that ended up replacing all the kids with, with straw dummies.

Simone Collins: No, just to make the, what, like one kid in the town feel less lonely. Totally not creeped out. No. Now there’s

Malcolm Collins: straw dummies playing on the swings and on

Simone Collins: the slide. What if it was just a great troll though? What if they actually really hated kids and they’re like, I, I will terrify idea for you. This

Malcolm Collins: kid with some Miyazaki stuff right here.

No, this kid’s gonna walk around and, and think their entire generation is turned into straw.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh though again, amazing troll. Like, you know, you’re the grocery store owner, kid starts acting up. Listen kid. You wanna know what happened to the last kid who messed around in my grocery store? Straw man.

Malcolm Collins: It literally to me [00:02:00] feels like a Stephen King book or something. You’re kid, kid, you move to this town, everyone else is, all the other children are straw and all the adults act like it’s totally normal. Yeah. Like that’s just Benny. What are you talking about? I would, we need to do that to our kids. We need to take them to that town and then to just be like this.

All of those, this is what happens to bad kids in Japan. Stuff that our kids believe about how the world works. They believe in Wingos and, and oh,

Simone Collins: Octavian was telling me this morning that he doesn’t think Wendigo are real. He thinks we’re trolling him, but yet Titan was just building new lore last night, asking about, what was it?

Creaky man. Creaky man. Yeah, creaky man who lives in a cave that’s pink and purple with maybe some blue.

Malcolm Collins: With maybe some blue. She’s not sure, but he is scary. Yeah. And he lives in a pink and purple cave anyway. No. They see what we’re doing and I think that they’re internalizing that. It’s like, oh, we’re like building stories of the family.

I’m gonna do that too. But anyway.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Of the [00:03:00] 10.13 Locke, 1.013 million government schools across India 5,149 have no students at all. And more than 70% of these schools, which reported zero enrollment in the 2024 to 2025 academic year are located in the states of Ngal in West Bengal according to government.

Simone Collins: Are people migrating out of them, like due to climate issues? We’ll get

Malcolm Collins: to it in a second. Okay. So curious. The broader cat category of schools was less than 10% or zero. Enrollment has also seen a surge according to data shared by the education ministry in Parliament recently. Hmm. The number of such government schools has grown by 24% over the last two years.

52,309 in 2022 to 2023 to 65,054 in 2024, 2025. These schools now account for 6.42% of the country’s government schools. So six oh, like. Six and a half percent of the country [00:04:00] schools are empty. The government said in a written reply to questions, and this has grown by 25% over the past two years by MP P ro.

Nobody cares about these names anyway. And the lower TFR southern states of India have returned TFR of Talem NADA of 1.4 Ara Polish, 1.5 ra. Five. These are actually a little high. I got some more updated numbers here. So let’s pull the updated Indian TFR numbers and yeah. And also

Simone Collins: for comparison, what percentage of Japanese schools have shut down to declining population and what percentage of South Korean schools have shut down due to declining population?

Malcolm Collins: We should know that to continue here. If you look at this map of ignia, then I’m putting on the screen here.

Simone Collins: So in Japan, there’s been a decline of less than 20%. But a rough back of the [00:05:00] envelope comparison suggests that the order of 20 to 25% of the school stock that existed a few decades ago has been shut down or consolidated.

And in South Korea it’s 30 to 35%. But still it’s impressive that India would even see as much as the 6% decline because the message that that we get is that in India is fine, soon everyone’s gonna be Indian. Like that’s the hugest population. It’s And power

Malcolm Collins: also talk about this in the context of like, Nick Fuentes has decided that now Indians are the worst people ever.

Simone Collins: Oh boy.

Malcolm Collins: Going off about, I think it’s mostly.

Simone Collins: Actually, there was something I heard about, it must be due to H one B visas because I think a lot of Americans are just really fed up with them. I don’t think it’s

Malcolm Collins: due to H one B visas actually. Really? So I, I think it’s specifically the guy, the Romanian troll TV guy who has a lot of overlap with us in podcast fans.

He said recently something that really begun to aid at me and I might do a separate episode on it. Ooh. But he said. Suppose Nick Fuente, like was not [00:06:00] a, a plant designed to sabotage the Republican party. Why does

Simone Collins: everyone think he’s a plant?

Malcolm Collins: No. Hold on. Hold on. This is where I had always dismissed this in the past.

Yeah. And then he said it this way and it completely changed my mind. Okay. Suppose he’s not. Okay. Is there a single thing, and this is called controlled opposition. Is there a single thing, position? Anything that he’s done in, I’d say the past five years, that he would do differently if he wasn’t controlled.

Opposition. Is there a single position that he would hold differently? And the answer is when I started to think through it, no. I literally can’t think of a position, a single position that he holds because he’ll do stuff like Glaze Gavin Newsom while attacking JD Vance. And take whatever position he thinks is currently going to be the most.

Divisive was in the Republican party. And whenever election season comes around, he’s always really loud about not voting Republican. These are all the things you would expect a controlled [00:07:00] opposition party to do. And we are aware of previous right wing figures who presented themselves as openly racist, who were controlled opposition recently known like it was.

Simone Collins: Provably, what I’ve heard is

Malcolm Collins: Richard Spencer was confirmed as a controlled opposition. And now he, he’s pushing for Biden as like he had this period, well, I guess we have to

Simone Collins: define controlled opposition because we do know for a fact, because of the way that campaign donations are documented in the United States that many.

Unviable Republican candidates were backed by Democratic fundraise like, or we’ll say democratic donors in elections because they knew that if an, an overly extreme Republican candidate made it through the primary, they would be too extreme to win over the centrist vote, and therefore the Democratic candidate would win.

So the most effective use of Democratic campaign funds would be to fund. A Republican candidate that was too extreme to win a general [00:08:00] election, only a primary election among Republicans. So I think that maybe like I could see Richard Spencer, for example, being quote unquote controlled opposition without having any line of communication with.

Someone attempting to fuel that. Well,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, a lot of this stuff is done and I’m, I’m gonna do some research on it. ‘cause I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve been doing research on it and the more research I do, the fishier it gets, mm-hmm. It would probably be through like ad buys and stuff like that. He might not even know that he’s entirely being Yeah.

Or like

Simone Collins: bought based subscriptions, you know, like he, he sees, oh, all these people are paying my $100 a month, you know, premium. Subscription fee, however, audience

Malcolm Collins: captured by controlled opposition box. Yeah. He doesn’t,

Simone Collins: he doesn’t know, like it just happens to be that there’s all these passive members who he doesn’t see comments from, who don’t join his group chats, but like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, but the, the reason why with the H one B visas, so I have pointed out like if you wanna attack any for the H one B visa situation, which I think is totally.

An acceptable thing and yeah, a really big tragedy that we’re having right now. You just point out that if an ethnic group [00:09:00] is coming into the United States and they have an in-group preference in hiring, which Indians demonstrably do. Yeah. And they then reach positions of seniority within an organization soon, that organization will be, especially with senior roles, overwhelmingly that ethnic group.

Yeah. This

Simone Collins: isn’t anything against. Indians or anyone who does stuff like this, not, not shame on that group, shame on the system. Like fix the system if you have a problem. Well,

Malcolm Collins: the, the way you fix the system is by stopping the H one B visa. Yeah. But the, the point being is that, I think and, and, and there’s other ways that I think it can be fixed.

Like, for example, I think we should be loose on visas for immigrants who are coming in with funded companies because I’ve always found that really silly that we do make it so hard Google. Oh, right. Because

Simone Collins: they’re actively creating jobs. They’re not taking someone else’s job. Yeah. But if they’re gonna hit, if your job Google

Malcolm Collins: or Facebook or something like that, absolutely not.

Yeah. Then you,

Simone Collins: then you are replacing someone, an American’s job.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so make it make, and right now it’s the opposite. It’s you, you sort of have to, like a lot of my immigrant friends, they sort of have to work for like five or six years in one of these big companies so that they can get [00:10:00] their immigration status and then they do the startup that they, right.

‘cause how are you gonna get a visa

Simone Collins: if you wanna go to a country to start a business? Right? Yeah. Well there are some, and, and other countries do have means of getting residency or some form of even a pathway decision. Citizenship if you invest a certain amount of money in the co, in the country. Right.

So, I don’t know, but yeah. But anyway,

Malcolm Collins: the point I was making here no, I don’t think you invest. I think if people are willing to invest in you, like if you get like x many millions from VCs or something like that. Oh yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or if, if you are the founder of, or president or CEO of a business that has this much funding and you, and I mean you must have some pledge to.

Have a certain number of jobs too, because what if it’s just an AI business that makes people, no, I don’t

Malcolm Collins: care if it’s just an AI company. If you’re coming into the United States as a rich person, that’s generally good for us. Oh, I guess ‘cause

Simone Collins: yeah, you’re, you’re still buying DoorDash, you’re still buying, you’re still

Malcolm Collins: paying taxes, you’re still, okay.

Fair point. The point here being is there is a way to point out the H one B situation and why it’s so terrible. But if you are, then. You know, [00:11:00] attacking where Nick has spent most of his attention is attacking JD Vance’s wife, for example, is, is where I’ve seen a lot of stuff. And that’s more to me, I think that if he was controlled opposition, he would expect JD Vance to be the next candidate for the US president.

And here he was much he can to undermine him. So he tries to stoke anti-Indian sentiment. Which again we’re gonna argue is kind of silly because they have fairly low fertility rates and they’re not well. Except in the United States where it’s interesting, but we’re gonna get to all of this in a second.

Hmm. Let’s look at this fertility map and I sent this to you on WhatsApp. Okay. What you can see is across India, like, like I’d say about a half of the country that a fertility rate of around like 1.5 to 1.0 my

Simone Collins: word. India. Are you okay bro? Yeah. What is going on? Dude, this is not good. And then this is India.

Everyone’s talking about how India’s this huge, okay. Oh, sorry. Texas is distressing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then the parts that are Okay. And when I say okay, I mean, [00:12:00] I’m talking about fertility rates that are like 2.4. Like just hover? Yeah, like passable.

Simone Collins: Yeah, like basically replacement, if we’re being honest with ourselves.

Malcolm Collins: These, these regions are, are also just not that high. So let’s go into what is correlating with that, right? Because I was like, okay, well, so then what is India gonna look like in the future with this fertility pattern? So I decided to look up religion by region in India. And what you can see is the more Christian regions have very low fertility rates and the more Hindi regions have very low fertility rates and the higher fertility rates are in the.

You guessed it. Muslim regions. And, and then if you look at this one here, which then looks at more, you can still see you do have some oh, this is the second most followed religion by every district. So you can see it’s the, the Muslim regions where you see the higher fertility rate again there.

Here we can look at ethnic groups. And what you can see is the Dian ethnic group is the one that is like absolutely going extinct. This, this has the [00:13:00] most overlap. I’m not familiar with

Simone Collins: that group,

Malcolm Collins: the Endo Ians, that are doing really well. If I remember correctly, they’re the ones that are less related to European.

So for people who don’t know, Indians are a European ethnic group. They are more closely related to Europeans than they are to East Asians. Some

Simone Collins: people in the comments had an aneurysm the first time you mentioned that.

So I put this in the AI to try to figure out what we had gotten wrong and it said we were broadly correct. The one thing we did get wrong though, is that the Diane, , ethnic group in Southern India is actually one of the groups that is less related to Europeans, , and the Northern Indians who are having more kids.

So the group that’s going to replace them is actually one of the groups that is more related to Europeans.

Simone Collins: Just FYI. They were like, that’s not true.

Malcolm Collins: You could just look at the statistic.

They’re more, and, and it’s even more so when you’re talking about Brahmins, which are the ones that are coming to our country. India’s actually a state, like if you wanna go on the racist side of things, it’s actually a state where a group of European invaders came in and [00:14:00] created an ethnic caste system that still with Europeans at the top, that still existed today.

Because the, the Brahman cast comes from the, partially from the Aryan invaders that happened, I can’t remember how many centuries ago. Which was just funny to the racist people. But we often talk about you know, there are Indians are sort of like way more comfortable talking about race than other groups as well.

You know, famous white nationalist we’ve had on the show with Khan. That, that’s a joke. By the way. I call him a famous white nationalist ‘cause he’s very Indian, but like, well because he,

Simone Collins: he’s willing to discuss genetics. And, and traits?

Malcolm Collins: Well, we’ve seen that if you’re looking at genetically mm-hmm.

Like there were a survey done on like what countries would be Okay. Was doing like genetic sorting on potential partners you know, like Gatica style and like India, like was orders of magnitude at the top of the charts. And one of the reasons it’s just because they basically already do it. When you’re, when you’re getting a partner, it’s like, well, how much does your brother earn?

How much, you know? Which is basically [00:15:00] saying genetically how much are you likely to earn? Right. So we, we are gonna see some ethnic groups within India severely less represented in the future. And then the last one here is the economics of each region. And you can see that this is by far the highest overlap with the TFR.

And this is what we’ve talked about. Cultures that motivate lower economic outcomes can increase their fertility rate purely through motivating the lower economic outcomes. And yeah. And, and this means that India overall is gonna become poorer if the, the people who are having lots of kids are in the regions and the people who make less money was in the country.

But let’s talk about Indians outside of India because Indians outside of India are pretty interesting. Hmm. By the way, why do you think people had an aneurysm when I said that I, I, I figured that this should just be obvious to anyone who looks at an Indian face. Like they look like dark skinned.

No, they

Simone Collins: were, they were trying to say something about like, that’s not exactly true. It was this way instead, like something on the more technical end of the spectrum [00:16:00] where I didn’t have enough time to research their thing and also get done everything I needed to get done. So, you know what I mean? Where someone like makes a more complex claim that would require a bunch of Googling and.

I didn’t have the time at that moment

Malcolm Collins: to do so. I’ll, I’ll look it up. Sure, yeah. You put the, the, on that one I put the branching tree of human evolution so you could see when the various branches split. But Indians are, are unique branch because they’re both European branch that within, conquered by a later group of Europeans that created the caste system.

That’s wild. Well, I mean, yeah, pretty crazy. But anyway it is, and, and this is a problem actually, I, I’d say more broadly with like Indians. So, so let’s talk about this, ‘ cause I actually wanna talk about, ‘cause I think Indians are pretty nuanced here. One is when they get into other countries, they have decent fertility rates.

So Indians in the United States, for example, have a fertility rate of [00:17:00] 1.6. That is way above the black population in the United States. That is, it’s

Simone Collins: about. The US norm though, isn’t it? Isn’t the US it’s

Malcolm Collins: about the white norm, isn’t it? Yeah. That’s the same fertility rate as white people. Yeah. And so they’re not like, we’re not actually like outbreeding like you could say, oh, if you’re talking about like East Asians in the United States or blacks in the United States like we are, and you could see our episode of your unfamiliar with this.

A black birth rate fell below the white birth rate this last year and is falling really quickly compared to other fertility rates. And if you’re looking at the native black population, it’s. It’s desperately low. We’re replacing them with Somalians, which is effing terrifying to me. Let’s, let’s get on that native black population and get out the Somalians.

Can we, can we do that? Like, I don’t this fraud, if people are wondering why we haven’t covered the fraud thing, it’s too depressing for me to do any research into, I just hate that billions of, billions of tax dollars are being, it’s

Simone Collins: really painful to think about. Yeah, because it’s not like that is just one freaking example.

And the, the, the fact that Somalians are doing it, it’s just, [00:18:00] we did an episode on ethnic cartels which sort of talks about how like within certain ethnic groups you’ll get these clusters of industries. A lot of, because like, you know, people are hiring trusted relations, et cetera. Like, it’s really easy to sort of train people in these zones and then like bring in family.

So of course Solans are doing it like, but there, I bet there are other ethnic groups that are, you know, of course and including white groups that are doing. Similar levels of fraud also. There are tons, hold on. No, no, no. In our area won’t, that is

Malcolm Collins: demonstrably not true. Sorry, I have to interrupt you.

Okay. There is no other, there’s certainly no white group in the United States right now that’s doing on the tune of $8 billion in one state. No, no, no. That is

Simone Collins: really, yeah, the, the, the well, and again, the reason why ethnic cartels. Are able to do their thing primarily does involve immigrant groups and also illegal low paid immigrants and like sort of almost like refugee or inte servitude levels of No, [00:19:00] I would be shocked.

I would be shocked. Native white populations just don’t have the same, we’ll say strategic advantages or abilities to engage in ethnic cartels in the United States. Well,

Malcolm Collins: they don’t have the same in-group trust. Yeah. They might be able to do this in another country, but in the united. States, I can say categorically that’s not happening.

Yeah. Fair. Out outside of like maybe like large businesses that are getting government contracts or something like that. In, in which case that’s more just like business corruption stuff. Yeah. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there was at least one or two other ethnic groups running a scam of a similar scale.

Yeah. But, but keep in mind the Somalian scam is something that like we should have been aware of, like there like the. A, a desperately, like even for Africa, Somalia is desperately poor, right? Like mm-hmm. If you’re importing a bunch of people from there you, you’re, you’re unlikely to get the, the, a huge amount of economic productivity.

And this is where I was gonna get to is what I was saying about Indians. Indians are unique in that if I was importing a large group of [00:20:00] Somalians and I’m looking at, you know, what they’re doing in terms of their sort of economic productivity, likeliness of running scams, et cetera, was in the United States.

I would say that there. Probably gonna be a net drain on the country. Mm-hmm. But Indians are different.

Simone Collins: Yeah, because they, in this case, it’s mostly Brahmans, right. Immigrating over and, and like, they’re sort of the most educated, the most wealthy who are coming, which is one reason why their birthdays are solo.

No, nobody’s, they’re already, it’s not just that.

Malcolm Collins: It’s not. So for people who don’t know this our neighborhood, the neighborhood Simone and I live in is 70% Indian in the United States. Yeah. And

Simone Collins: they’re, they’re immigrating. To work for a large finance company and like the pharmaceutical companies here.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but the point being is that I’m saying this as somebody who lives in a predominantly American Indian neighborhood. So I’m gonna talk about like the ups and downs of Indian immigrant populations. ‘cause I think that they. They presented nuanced sort of position. The, the upside is, is that it’s very safe.

It’s a, it’s an incredibly safe [00:21:00] community. Not only is it a safe community but it’s a community that I’m very comfortable raising my kids in. Well, they’re

Simone Collins: so nice.

Malcolm Collins: I remember. Oh yeah. All the families are

Simone Collins: great people.

Malcolm Collins: I was growing up and one of my Indian friends. Because I’ve often hung out with a lot of Indian communities and stuff like that growing up, because I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and there’s a big Indian community in Dallas, Texas.

And I remember he had a conversation with me like, dude, why are you sleeping around? He’s like, look, you should wait until you’re finished with college and get married and then you can focus on sex. It’s a giant waste of time. What? And I was like. And, and he explained this as like the way that it was taught to him by his parents and a lot of Indian immigrant kids.

Like, I, I want my kids friends to be like, dude, don’t sleep around in high school and college. Wait to get married. What are you doing?

Simone Collins: That’s weird. I I, I dated one Indian immigrant when, when I was on my like dating mm-hmm. Thing before I met you. But his whole thing was like, yeah, I’m dating now, but like, I’m gonna.

[00:22:00] Marry a nice Indian girl that my parents pick out for me, but like he was dating to have fun, but also in mind, like that’s

Malcolm Collins: actually pretty effing responsible. This is the next thing that I’m saying about Indians is that culturally they’re not particularly negative for your children to be around. You know, somebody who’s like, oh, I’m just, I, I might date now, but this is just for fooling around.

My parents are party. Yeah, that’s a message I want my kids exposed to. Totally. And, and and normalize too. Mm-hmm. So you’ve got that. You’ve got the low crime rates. Like, and keep in mind that Indians also disproportionately settle in different regions in other groups. So Indians disproportionately settle in suburbs.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Which makes them

Malcolm Collins: very different than the groups that disproportionately settle in major cities. That’s urban areas, which

Simone Collins: is part

Malcolm Collins: why you cannot get as good of Indian food in American major cities. As you can in American suburbs. Mm-hmm. This is one of the, when everyone’s like, well, if you’re in a major city, you can get better food.

I don’t think that’s the point of diversity. I’m just pointing out that like that’s but anyway. Yeah. [00:23:00] And on top of all of that Indians generally make a lot of money. They, they economically contribute and they don’t have terribly high fertility rates. What they’re here, they have stable fertility rates, like they are a useful additional population.

In addition to all of that you know, India, if you’re, if you’re talking culturally. Is outside of Europe, one of the, the longest standing Christian traditions in the world. India. Oh yeah, super, super old, I wanna say was in two generations of Jesus, they had Christian communities in India.

Ooh, it might have been within one generation of Jesus if, if some myths are true.

So by legend, Christianity arrives in India from doubting Thomas, one of the 12 apostles, roughly 30 to 33 ad. So to put that in context, if you’re like, Indians aren’t actually Christian, when did Christianity arrive in Rome? If you are a Catholic saying that, well, between. 30 and 33 ad [00:24:00] so Christianity arrived in India at around the same time that Christianity arrived in Rome For context.

Malcolm Collins: So they’ve been there for a very long time. Like they are as Christian, as Europeans are Christian. And this is one of the things when, you know Nick Voges is like America’s a Christian country. And I’m like, well, there’s a lot of really.

Ancient Christian strands within India. Now they are a lower percent of the population in India still, and they are the areas that have the extremely low fertility rate. And I wouldn’t be surprised if within the United States they have a low fertility rate as well. So, keep all that in mind. Also keep in mind that when you’re talking about Indian immigrants, not all the immigrant groups are the same.

You know, you’re gonna get you know, some you know, Hindi groups, some Muslim groups, some JIAN groups, et cetera. And they’re gonna have different cultures to them. But. I’m just sort of going through the, the broad things, but there’s a few real negatives. One is the issue of in-group preference and hiring.

As you point [00:25:00] out all of these firms around here, these finance firms I’ve applied to them. I have a Stanford MBA, I’ve never heard back from any of them, right? Like, it’s pretty clear what their strategy to hiring is, and that is not useful for an existing population. Like it is useful that they’re paying taxes and everything like that.

Like that’s great. But if. They can get hired into companies. And a lot of these companies aren’t just finance firms, they’re big pharmaceutical companies and stuff like that, that were founded in this country, and then turn branches of them into things that are hiring mono ethnically and in a way that is economically un uncompetitive that is bad.

Just a strictly bad thing, right? Mm-hmm. The secondary thing here. Is it’s, it’s strictly bad that they, they also are more likely to run scams than other populations in terms of ethnic groups. So there’s certainly nothing as bad as the Somalian scam. But it’s just something that culturally they do at a, a, a, a slightly higher rate.

But that [00:26:00] said I, I, I think you know. I would, I say, do the downsides over, over do the good sides. I think the one good side that sort of tips it for me is that Indians and Europeans have worked together in sort of the colonial project. For a very long time and had a very good working relation during that period.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And so there, there is a, a cultural symbiosis that makes the cultures easier to work harmoniously than you would expect otherwise when it, when it comes to other ethnic groups that don’t have this hugely. And other cultural groups that don’t have this hugely long history working alongside Europeans.

Now that said that that happened when there was an understood hierarchy. And now that the understood hierarchy is breaking down it might break down the. Like how good that project is at working. But the broad point I’m making here [00:27:00] is why, why don’t, why aren’t Indians in the United States hit by fertility collapse as hard as other groups?

My core answer to this is going to be because they’re better at culturally isolating themselves.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the way that they culturally isolate themselves is very resistant to the urban monoculture. So, uh mm-hmm. Having a lot of Indians, I’ll explain what I mean by this. Grown up with a lot of Indian friends.

They treat the urban monocultural pre elections and everything like that as sort of. Not like debauched and evil like traditional Christians do, right? Like mm-hmm. If you’re talking about the way, like a traditional, like evangelical would try to resist it. They’d be like, look, look at all this satanic and debauch stuff that these people are doing, right?

Mm-hmm. They treat it as. Just a pointless waste of time. Like, but why are you investing all this time in [00:28:00] dating? Like, shouldn’t you be investing it? I remember he is like Malcolm, like you are like literally just making logical arguments to me. Malcolm, you’re a smart guy. Like. If you spent all the time you spent hooking up with girls and having sex studying, you could get into a better college and make more money as an adult and get a better wife.

Like, why are you wasting time on this? He’s like, like, what do you value in life? Like clearly this isn’t going to, and it’s a very good way to sell a culture. So you have that. And then the secondary thing, which you’ve heard and you, you often see in these groups is I may, and you see a lot of in Indians, do this.

Indulge in the urban monocultural perspective. Indulge in urban monocultural ways of life. And then say, but you know, you know, and I know I’m gonna marry whoever my parents arrange for me. I’m just having fun ‘cause I’m hanging out with you guys right now. Mm-hmm. And that’s and, and if you said, [00:29:00] why, why are you gonna do that?

Like, why don’t you do things our way? The answer is twofold. That I’ve typically heard one is your way seems to be stupid. Is, is one of the answers. And they’re right. You know, it was less obvious that they were able to say this when I was growing up in the early two thousands, late nineties. And everybody thought the urban monoculture was correct, and they were able to just look at it and be like, this doesn’t seem logical to me. Okay. That’s one thing. But then the second thing is, is they have this perspective of, yeah, but I should at least try it. IE I’m gonna at least give my parents way of doing things a shot before I try the urban monocultural way of doing it.

Speaker 6: To be perfectly honest with you, I have not exactly been looking forward to this arranged marriage. Oh, not have I marrying a complete stranger. It’s crazy.,

Do you think this marriage could really work?

Speaker 8: Who knows? We can always get divorced.

Speaker 6: Of course. [00:30:00] God bless America.

Malcolm Collins: Well, there’s,

Simone Collins: it’s almost like a low key Lum rum Springer, honestly. Like two things to add to what you’re saying is I get the impression from, okay, like I grew up in a very multicultural San

Francisco school

district and Yeah, I grew up in a, a, a city just outside of San Francisco and I had a pretty, I, I imagine like pretty ethnically and racially diverse school.

Most of my friends were Asian, not Indian, but like. Vietnam, China and South Korea. And then like a couple white friends and like a couple from like, just random places like Oceania. But I noticed that like my, my elementary, I had a, an elementary friend who was in like from an Indian immigrant family.

A [00:31:00] big difference. The Indians that I’ve known, like either dated or known as a kid, their families, or they were here for economic opportunity, not for the American experience. They were not here for the culture. They were not here for fun. They were not here to change. They were here to basically. Add fuel to an existing lifestyle that was working really well for them.

It’s just they didn’t have the money to fund it, or they couldn’t live Indian culture or live out their Indian cultural ideals as well in the economy in which they were born, like in the, in this town or city in which they used to live in India. So they came to America to live out the Indian dream. Whereas people that I knew who came from Latin America w.

Were more like their families were literally coming for more like the American cultural experience, not just the American economic dream. And what’s interesting is that the immigrant parents, I, I, [00:32:00] or the immigrant families I knew who were Asian, the parents came for the economic opportunity, but the kids came like, or the kids were all about the American dream.

Like they fully integrated into American culture.

And I think this is largely downstream of how well you sell your own culture to your children. Do you make it look fun to be a, for example, Japanese American adult, , or Indian American adult,

it just doesn’t look very fun to be a Chinese American adult or a Japanese American adult. But being an Indian American adult can seem less nightmarish to a young person who’s growing up in a family like that at, at least in terms of the kids who I know who had parents who were either South Asian or East Asian.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but it was just mismatched. Like the Latin American families I knew, like really became super American, super quickly. Like everyone, the, the kids, the parents, everyone was in the, the Indians and Asian immigrant parents came for the economic [00:33:00] opportunity and wanted to keep their home culture.

But the Indian kids stayed. The the Asian kids left. And I don’t, I still can’t think about why, because both were disciplined, right? Men both had. Strong home cultures. I don’t know what the difference is and maybe it’s just Okay. So, I

Malcolm Collins: mean, I can go into, I, I think it has to do with how they relate to parents.

In, in India there seems to be more of like, like less of this in I, I, I guess, I don’t know how to put it, I haven’t seen as much friction between Indian parents and Indian children as I speak, well, my, my

Simone Collins: Asian, especially those with Chinese parents. So Vietnamese parents, there was a lot more love and care and family connection.

The ones with Chinese parents either would explicitly say that the parents didn’t love them. Or show through various like anecdotes that their parents did not show an ounce of affection.

Malcolm Collins: And, and I also, and I noticed this where I was growing up and I, I, I will say on the West Coast of the United [00:34:00] States, mm-hmm.

You will see other Asian groups where the kids can stay in their home culture for. Intergenerationally because they’ve got, you know, Chinese schools to send them to, or specific like school districts that are just meant for their culture and, and specific classes and everything. Like they’ve got the critical mass.

Indians pretty much wherever I’ve seen them in the United States. Whereas when I see Indians on the East coast or in the center of the US like in Lake Texas, sorry, not Indians, east Asians, they immediately assimilate. But Indians, it’s not the same. Indians don’t, and that’s another thing that people could say is an issue.

I mean, this is the thing and I think we need to be realistic. What I, I know

Simone Collins: actually, no. Yeah. It must be simulation because when you look at populations in Europe that are growing after migration, it’s because they also correlate highly with a lack of assimilation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. So they’re not.

Picking up these urban monoa cultural values. Mm-hmm. At the, at the same rate. Mm-hmm. The other thing I was gonna note about Indian culture, which is also worth talking about, and this is where I would have, you know, more consternation like I would be totally cool with my boys or girls hanging out with Indian boys, [00:35:00] but Indian culture of all the cultures that I have ever hung out a lot around mm-hmm.

Has. Biggest differentiation between males and females in terms of the way that they act and their attitudes. Oh, really? So

Simone Collins: you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t be in favor of them dating Are, are boys dating Indian girls?

Malcolm Collins: They can date Indian girls and hang. I just think that they’re Indian girls are much more likely to be a bad influence.

Well, my

Simone Collins: mark brakes for Octavian, former first grade classmate who. Threw him a cute little Minecraft sword and colored it. He got an girl.

Yeah, and I wanna be clear here. Whenever I speak in generalities about a group, I don’t mean this about everyone in the group. I’ve met some Indian girls who not only didn’t come off as histrionic at all, which I think is a better term for the behavior type that I’m describing here than I use here.

, It’s just as broad histrionic personality type. , But I thought would make good wives for me. And I, I have, since meeting Simone, I have met maybe. Three or four women in my [00:36:00] entire life where I’m like, that woman would’ve been a really nice person to marry. , But one of them was an Indian girl. , So I, I want to be clear here that, there are some Indian girls that I hold in the highest of esteem in terms of the people I have met. I’m just saying that this is a broad and weird trend that I’ve noticed where the Indian guys that I have met throughout my life and become good friends with have all been. On the more stoic side of all humans I’ve met, , whereas the Indian girls that I have met and become friends with or been involved in my socials or girls have been on the more histrionic side, which is weird because these are opposite personality types.

Just in case you’re wondering, this Indian girl I met and I thought would, oh, this would make a great wife. She’s married, she’s having kids, , and she’s very politically involved, so hopefully gonna be a big player one day.

Malcolm Collins: Well, hey, it’s not bad for when you’re fooling around like I,

Simone Collins: I mean No, no, you don’t fool around on a girl that, that you were, what,

Malcolm Collins: what I would say is that I have in, in my entire life I have met, [00:37:00] multiple Kleptomaniacs, like people who despite being wealthy, like steal stuff

Simone Collins: from stories or like from other people or both?

Malcolm Collins: I met three of them and it was just known that they just regularly stole stuff from people. Every single one of them that I’ve met was an Indian girl, an ethnically Indian girl.

My god. Of the people I’ve met with obvious borderline like personality features and stuff like that. Yeah. Almost everyone I’ve met is an Indian girl. Like even when I hung out with disproportionately Indian people through many parts of my life but like Indian girls seem to be like toxic feminine in a way that is just like pretty, pretty high good.

I don’t, I don’t know. What causes that correlation? It, it, the, I I’m trying to think like, wh why is it, why, why is it that Indian. Is it like a, I’m trying to think. It might be a form of gender dimorphism, like they’re a more gender dimorphic culture, [00:38:00] which leads to more because, okay, so actually, hold on.

Here’s my thesis on what causes this. Okay. Okay. India is a more gender dimorphic culture. That’s just like an objectively true thing, right? However, Indian males phenotypically do not look like they do not max out on gender dimorphism maleness, right? Like, very few people look at an Indian male and think that guy’s a Chad or whatever, right?

And as such, they don’t adopt a highly gender dimorphic or toxic masculine identity. However, Indian women can appear extremely. Feminine, right? Mm-hmm. And as such, they are more likely to adopt sort of the toxic feminine archetype and tropes potentially.

Simone Collins: So you’re saying basically because Indian men aren’t super, super, super manly.

Phenotypically that Indian women have to be [00:39:00] more feminine. Just to differentiate, like, no. What I’m saying

Malcolm Collins: is Indian men might have a similar problem if Indian men were more muscular and taller than other ethnic groups. They’re just not. So they can’t as easily lean into that identity. But Indian women don’t look any less EFF than other ethnic groups, so it’s easier for them to lean into this archetype of the the mean girl with, you know, emotional regulation issues.

Simone Collins: I wonder,

Malcolm Collins: Whatever the case may be. It’s, it’s they’re lucky they’ve got Indian guys because that’s like the one est ethnic group of guys where I’m like, I can see them being chill enough that this would work. Yeah. But anyway and, and maybe other people haven’t noticed this trend and it’s just something I’ve noticed other people can, can write back of like.

Yeah, I’ve noticed, I, I will make a secondary note here that the ones, the Indian women I know who, who act like histrionic and sort of crazy all of them fell to the urban monoculture. So they are the ones that have moved furthest from their birth culture. [00:40:00]

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I’ve even known one. Who was like this during a phase in her life when she was becoming more urban monoculture really did, she decided actually my parents weren’t such bad people.

I should go back and take more advice from them. And she became like way more levelheaded and sane and responsible. So, I. I think that it, it could also be that Indian women are more co-evolved with their culture and really need it and do worse in an urban monocultural environment. But that’s my, that’s my take there are very offensive.

But I’d be interested to see the comments of other people have noticed this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If I’m gonna anticipate anything, I think people are gonna be like, you can’t even make this many generalizations considering how insanely diverse. India is, but then I would counter argue that not really when the types of people from India that, that are immigrating to the United States that we are meeting are [00:41:00] typically actually from a much smaller social set.

So.

Malcolm Collins: Which is often the elite social set, which is again, like, that’s, that’s who you want as an immigrant group. So long as they aren’t displacing the existing population from companies, which is like, how would you actually, if you’re gonna build a policy that could make it possible to, have Indians immigrate into the country without it being a net negative.

I, I think what you would need to do is acknowledge the in-group preference in hiring that Indians have. Yeah, yeah. Trying to,

Simone Collins: to like fight it in some way. No, no, no. I

Malcolm Collins: think you need to acknowledge it and just make it explicitly Yeah. Just, just

Simone Collins: expect it and

Malcolm Collins: expect it and make it illegal.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Make it illegal to like specifically hire like over X percent Indians or something like that.

Do you have over X percent of x that’s just gonna get,

Simone Collins: it’s just gonna get exploited in some way? Like, that doesn’t seem right. I would, I would just say, I don’t know. I don’t have an answer. [00:42:00] It, you know, there aren’t typically easy answers to things like this, people probably said, I dunno. I dunno. I think that’s an easy answer.

Malcolm Collins: Just, just make it illegal. Like I don’t, I don’t understand. Right. Like, it, it would be a good thing and it would be a good thing for even an Indian to, to push because they could be like, look, this is the problem. I acknowledge it’s a problem. Let’s make it not a problem. Because, you know, I’m sure you would prefer Indian immigrants to Somalian immigrants.

Right. But yeah, and, and I think here, if some leftist is watching this and horrified that I’m saying that we, we need to acknowledge that these groups are. Culturally different from each other at the very least. And that that, that, that cultural differentiation leads to different behavioral patterns and economic engagement.

And some of that form forms of economic engagement, like the Somalian immigrants scam can be culturally damaging to the, the host country. I, I will also note. The one thing that I see a lot of pushback on in the right, and I think it’s right to push back on [00:43:00] is Vivek in his speech, and I quite like Vivek.

But he tried to do a speech like attacking Nick Fuentes at the recent, like, turning Point whatever conference, which we should start going to that by the way. But anyway, so he tries to do a speech, he’s like, blah, blah, blah. You know, I’m as American as anyone else. And you know, Nick Fuentes was aghast at this.

Now, of course, I point out Nick Fuentes, you’re a Catholic. That is. Less American than being an Indian. Historically speaking like that, I watch our video on this, like America was explicitly founded as an anti-Catholic country. And again, watch our, if you’re not familiar with this, we pointed out that Catholics could only vote in two of the 13 colonies.

And almost all of the founding fathers were extremely anti-Catholic except for George Washington as far as I’m aware of. But the point I’m making here is you know, he comes from a fairly recent immigrant family as well. But I, I do think that he has a, a point here, which is this. Anyone being able to go up and say, I’m just as American as anyone else, people are getting a little sick of that.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

But, , to be clear, I think it is more [00:44:00] disgusting for somebody like Nick Fuentes who is a Catholic, to say this about somebody else without any appreciation than it is for some random person to assume an American identity. , For him to gate gatekeeper an identity, which is specifically, he is just as much a guest as this Indian is quite repulsive.

Malcolm Collins: Instead of, I am really grateful that this country is hosting me, despite me not having in my ancestors not have played a part in building this country into what it is today. Mm-hmm. You know, I am, I am grateful for being hosted here. Is that sounds very ungrateful, and I do not think, I, I think that the, in, in the nineties you could say that, and that was like a trope and stuff like this.

And now we’re moving to a no. What you actually say is, I’m grateful to be here and grateful that you are willing to let me represent this movement. And I will try to stand for what the people who you know. [00:45:00] Built this country we’re, we’re, we’re standing for. And, and I’ve also heard it pointed out, I think that’s very true, that the, the founding fathers, this idea of like anyone who comes to Americas as American as anyone else that was certainly not what the founding fathers believed.

They, they were, they were quite big believers in differences in, in, in groups. And so when did that become a core to the American identity? We, we can actually probably do a separate episode on that. When did the idea that anyone who comes to America is an American as anyone else, when did that become popular?

I, yeah,

Simone Collins: I am curious to know.

Malcolm Collins: Actually. I’m gonna guess it became popular in the nineties. I, I’m gonna think it, it, it can’t, it’s, it’s gotta be a more recent thing. It, it probably has, I

Simone Collins: would say what, like, or maybe, maybe earlier, like around the Vietnam War. If it happened, I think it’s been like when I think it would correlate highly with the beginnings of criticizing America and Americans.

Like when the inward hate began would be when the. [00:46:00] Sort of outward love would begin. And then the, oh, oral America.

Malcolm Collins: Where, where, where it likely started, like if I’m actually thinking through right history, is it started, was the normalization of Catholic immigrants as being as American as non-Catholic immigrants.

Mm-hmm. And this was for people who don’t know a huge issue in America because the Catholic immigrant waves, whether it was the mafia or the mob, they always brought tons of organized crime. And people didn’t like them. Like they were seen as very non-American. And being, being seen as non-American, we, there was these huge campaigns like the Columbus Day campaign and everything like that to try to make it seem like, well Columbus, the very person who found America was a, a Catholic. Right? Like therefore being a Catholic or an Italian or whatever, like this is fine. Right? And if you today have normalized.

To like, well, Italians are as white and American as anyone else. And yet you are grinding your teeth about Latin American immigrants. I’m like, you understand that that’s basically the [00:47:00] exact same ethnic group, right? Like it is a, a Catholic majority Southern European ethnic group. A majority Southern European ethnic group.

Like, they. If, if you think that they were unjustified or this was some wrong kind of prejudice, yet you have prejudice against Latin American immigrants, that makes no sense to me. Like Latin American immigrants are more American than the Italian immigrants, specifically because the cultures that they come from, if you’re talking about cultural distance, at least.

We’re also immigrant countries and their ancestors often chose to come over in immigrant waves, making them closer to our ancestors in the Irish or Catholic immigrants.

Simone Collins: Oh, interesting.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, sorry, the Irish or Italian immigrants. So I actually think that that’s probably where it happened.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I’m curious maybe.

Maybe there’s an episode there, maybe there’s not. We can look into it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simone, and have a spectacular day.

Simone Collins: You too.[00:48:00]

Oh.

Malcolm Collins: We’re good.

That is wonderful and happy comments today.

Simone Collins: Indeed. Women are horrible.

Malcolm Collins: Women are horrible. That was a good, again, on

Simone Collins: base camp.

Malcolm Collins: I didn’t get a, I, I thought my, my, the tallest joke was so funny and not a lot of people commented on it.

The Erkin Society being tender, but no, no, just me. Maybe we’re dealing with a different generation of followers. I don’t know. Younger.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t think this was a generation of people raised on Invader. Zm. I don’t know what to tell you. Sad but true. Sad

Malcolm Collins: but true. All right.

[00:49:00] [00:50:00]

In this episode, we dive into the viral Australian academic advice (from Deakin University researchers) that parents should ask babies for “consent” before changing their diapers. It sounds absurd on the surface—and we roast it hard—but we also steelman their perspective before tearing it apart.

We explore how this philosophy ties into extreme gentle parenting trends (no timeouts without consent? No punishments?), the misuse of “consent” as the sole argument against adult-minor relationships (spoiler: it’s not about consent; it’s about developmental stages and guardianship), and why removing natural threats/fears from kids’ lives might fuel modern anxiety epidemics.

From ritualized diaper changes that feel suspiciously fetish-adjacent, to using clinical terms like “vulva/penis/anus” on infants vs. fun family euphemisms like “doty” and “flippy,” we share our unfiltered parenting stories—including epic blowouts, bribery for potty training, and why our kids aren’t anxious wrecks despite (or because of) our pragmatic, authoritative style.

We also touch on Krampus, ancestral fear exposure, nursing home STDs, and why suburb-raised girls invent existential threats. Plus: a chaotic domestic tangent about poop smells, manga villains, and who’s making dinner.

If you’re tired of overthinking parenting and want a raw, evidence-based take on why kids actually need guardians (not mini-adults), this one’s for you.

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about children and consent and infants and consent uhoh.

And we are going to be using it went viral a while ago, this story where a leftist university specifically it was the Deacon University in Australia

suggested that you ask your baby consent before changing their diapers. And Simone is just sharing a story about changing Texas diapers.

So, you know, on, on topic here. But it’s, it comes off as ridiculous at face value. But I want to look at it from their eyes, not like the other people covering. I wanna see how they argue for it, why they think it’s important, right. And then I want to go from there to look at other instances in which parents and parental advocates have been advocating for.

Extreme consent searching from children before, like punishment and everything like that. And we saw this like in my Stephen Mullany debate where you know, like asking

Simone Collins: for consent for timeout,

Malcolm Collins: well they don’t, don’t do timeouts ‘cause a kid [00:01:00] wouldn’t consent to it. Right. You know, you know, it’s only gentle parenting.

Only nice parenting. And so I wanna go into this philosophy in its extremes, but I’m also gonna be arguing that a a lot of people have misunderstood. And I think where the concept of consent creeped into children’s, the literature and the concept of children needing consent, is that for whatever reason, the urban monoculture decided to use a lack of consent to argue why, you know, we do not have sex with minors.

And I actually think that that’s. Completely stupid. Like that is not why you don’t have sex with a minor consent. And I, I, I mean, I’ve argued this with animals where I point out that, you know, the reason we don’t have sex with animals isn’t that the animal can’t consent because we

Simone Collins: eat

Malcolm Collins: animals and we like raise them in a state of constant torture if you’re talking about veal or farm chicken or something like that.

Oh, goodness. And, and people protest that, but you know, they’re, they’re, they’re at the same time, they’re like, oh, consent, consent, consent, you know, is why we don’t [00:02:00] do it. It’s a disease risk with, with animals.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There, that’s why a lot of cultures convergently evolved that particular belief.

But with children, I, I point out here that, okay, like you’ve got like a 15-year-old or something like that, right? Like, okay, a, a 15-year-old in terms of their cognition is. Well, more advanced than many elderly individuals, many mentally handicapped individuals. Sure. 15 year olds are actually fairly sharp.

They’re almost as

Simone Collins: smart as pigs.

Malcolm Collins: As pigs. I’m kidding. Okay. And I think even if you go back of it, I mean, I think even like 13 year olds and 12 year olds are fairly smart. Like smarter. I, I’d say that the average, like 13-year-old I talk to is smarter and more cognitively there than the average person I’m talking to in a nursing home.

Simone Collins: Oh, no. Like 100%. I mean, people in nursing homes on average are dealing with pretty severe cognitive decline. Plus they’re also super set in their ways, whereas people who are teens are in this [00:03:00] Right. Incredible position. But I mean, you could even argue that an 8-year-old is there because also the 8-year-old is unencumbered by all of the hormonal vicissitudes that a teenager has to endure.

So, but

Malcolm Collins: yeah, the, the point being is. Nobody, or very few people are arguing that people in nursing homes shouldn’t be having sex. That’s actually Oh, when people have like the most sex in like Yeah. People are like

Simone Collins: power to the people. Like Yeah. Split it up

Malcolm Collins: like this big thing of like people sleeping around a lot in like huge, yeah.

Simone Collins: STDs being a really big issue with nursing homes. Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: nursing homes. But I, I, I think there’s very few people, even a lot of lefties that would argue that like a 13-year-old should be sleeping around. And so it’s, it’s clearly even for them, they understand intuitively it isn’t a consent issue.

And this’ll be a lot of what I’m talking about in this piece. And I talked about it before, but I think it’s very important for people to, is it’s a stage of development issue. It’s at that stage of development. Are you expected to take you know, sort of [00:04:00] internal responsibility for the way you relate to rules, the way you relate to the world around you?

Are you essentially supposed to be living under a guardian or are you not? Like, is that the way your brain is structured?

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And when you’re living under a guardian, obviously the guardian has final say on the things you do and do not do. Right. The punishments, et cetera. And, and we’ll be arguing that you are cognitively sort of loaded to be living in this environment and to take an a, a younger person out of this environment.

Can actually be very damaging. And not just with a guardian, but I also think, and this is something that we do a lot with our parenting with, with, with fear, with uncertainty with this was all normal in an ancestral context and we removed this from people’s lives and I think did a lot of damage.

Huh. And you can see our video where we point out that you actually see, like, you know, when you’re looking at some rates of like mental health issues and stuff like that, you see them at higher rates in wealthier young girls than in like. Young girls who live in more urban or or less wealthy environments.

Mm-hmm. And that is [00:05:00] like, it’s a suburb girl thing, right? And, and I, I argue that that’s because their brain is, is, is trying to search for threats. And when you remove all of the threats from their lives, they begin to assign everything a threat. Like, well, Donald Trump is trying to. They put me in the breeding pins, right?

Like everybody, every guy who looks at me wrong wants to grate me. You know, I I’m in a constant threat because somebody said that they disagree with my view of gender, right? Like, they’re, they’re trying to wipe out my people, right? Like they invent all of these existential threats because their brain is meant to deal with existential threats.

Mm. And this is part of why we do Krampus and everything like that with our kids and, and when Togo and everything, but let’s start with nappy changes are not just a chore to rush through. You can use them to teach consent. And this is from the that, that school in Australia, okay? Mm. This is 2023 paper.

There has been a lot of focus on the need to teach older children about consent. And this link that they have here, I think is very telling to what I’m talking to about here. [00:06:00] It’s, it’s, it’s about teaching teenagers about consent as it relates to sex. And I’m, I’m like, that is clearly not.

Like what we’re talking about with nappies, but you can see that they’re literally drawing that, that thread very directly in this sort of, I

Simone Collins: could see how your average progressive would get there, because nappies are an instance in which people are coming into direct content contact with your No, no zones.

So I, I can kind of see it. Yeah, like it’s just saying like, when your no-no zone is exposed and people are touching it. You need to have a conversation about consent. Like they’re not, they’re not trying to say it’s the same thing, but they’re trying to say in these contexts, you know, like, just be conditioned that this is all, this is consent conversation time because my pants are down.

That kind of thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and I think that, I’ve always actually found it very weird at doctor’s offices where the doctor always is like, you know, telling my kid, well, you know, it’s okay that I’m doing this because your dad is here. Or you know, like, wait, they say that. [00:07:00] Yeah. You never do doctor’s visits, so she doesn’t Yeah.

So I wouldn’t

Simone Collins: know. That’s what they what Are you serious?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but they’re like, this is, this is something that normally you shouldn’t let somebody do.

Simone Collins: Do you think they’ve been told to do that by their law firm? They don’t get sued or something. I,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I don’t know. Like for me and for our family, I, I, like, I just do not think a lot about like, nudity one way or the other.

Like when our kids get up, we change them, whatever. And obviously this could discuss, we’re not allowed to

Simone Collins: because our kids just insist on randomly taking off their clothes. Yeah. Like, and nothing we do, including keeping the temperature of the house at 53 degrees seems to stop them from doing it.

Malcolm Collins: They just can’t stop.

Reporters are here or whatever and Torsten will just take off his pants and run. And I’m like, why?

Simone Collins: We get, we get swifty in here getting swifty.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: All the time.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. But parents should not wait until kids are teenagers to talk about appropriate touching or how everyone has the right to say what happens to their body.

In fact, the earlier parents talk [00:08:00] about this with their kids, the better. And what’s very interesting here is you can see how, so naturally the idea of gender transitioning children comes from this. If your parents need to ask consent to even touch you as an infant if your parents need to act consent to touch you as, you know, a preteen.

Well, and, and, and, and, and, and look at the words here, right. Parents that should not wait until kids are teenagers to talk about appropriate touching or how everyone has a right to say what happens to their own body. Right. Like it’s clearly implying whatever your age, you have a right to say what happens to your body.

So you can see like a, a direct precursor right to this philosophy becoming normalized, which is one of the reasons I’m talking about this.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: The, this way consent becomes a normal, everyday part of life. Importantly, it also helps to keep kids safe from abuse as they learn what is okay and isn’t okay when it comes to their bodies.

You can start teaching little ones about consent even before they can talk. Here’s how you can do this during everyday care. [00:09:00] Try and, and I love this, this, their bodies, their bodies. It’s like a word I would never use about my children. Because like I, I, I guess is a little

Simone Collins: creepy.

Malcolm Collins: It’s creepy, right?

Like it’s an inherently sexualizing term. Try not to rush. Nappy changes can easily be seen by parents as a task to rush through and just quote, get done in quote. It seems like

Simone Collins: something that has been written by people who do not change diapers. Right. Have you changed a diaper, sir?

Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. So, but this can be a time to help children learn about consent and how their bodies work.

And here it’s linking to other articles that we’ll go into. Toileting is something young children will take charge of in the future. What happens before learning how to use the toilet should not be a mystery. Be clear about what’s going on at the start of a nappy change. Ensure your child knows what is happening.

Get down on [00:10:00] their level and say, you need a nappy change. And then pause so they can take this in. Have you ever done that, Simone?

Simone Collins: They just need a moment to grieve, don’t they?

Malcolm Collins: This is, it’s so antithetical. ‘cause I change her kids’ diapers all the time and I’m just like, you, you pick it up, you sniff, then throw ‘em on the table.

Throw on the table. Just change. Let them run off again. Right? Like I, the idea that you would like get down, like, it’s like, it’s

Simone Collins: very similar if you’ve seen videos of sheep shearing. I feel it’s kinda like that. Like you grab it, like you become like, like fast as you can go.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And they’re, they’re acting like a, like a salon or something like that for sheep.

They’re like, oh,

Simone Collins: oh. And we’re like, ah, and the sheep’s like blah, you know, like, whatever. You know, you gotta kind of restrain them a little. I don’t know, like maybe not everyone has to restrain their kids during diaper changes, but our kids are like, oh, it’s rasing time. Let’s go. And that’s not great when there’s, when there are little turds flying.

Not my favorite, [00:11:00] but it, it around like 18 months. That’s when our kids decide, oh, I can troll you while doing this.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my god. So it gets worse. It gets worse. Okay. So that thing I just said where they said to like, get down on their level and say you need a nappy change. Yeah. So

Simone Collins: I’m, I’m on my haunches.

I’m looking my kid in the eye and I’m, I’m asking them to let it settle in.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So this is happening before you have taken them to the table?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So

Malcolm Collins: did what you’re supposed to do.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Is you say, do you want to walk slash crawl with me to the change table? Crawl with me to carry you,

Simone Collins: girl. Do you have to buy knee pads for this?

What are we doing? Crawl with the I? No, I, so you know the age where every time I bend down I’m like, okay, what else can I do while I’m down here? Like I, let’s batch it. You know, if I’ve done this, we gotta make the [00:12:00] most of it. We’re gonna be down here for a while now. This I’m not No, no. We’re not doing.

Oh my God. But if the kid, can we look, can we figure out if this person is a parent? They must be a, a parent

Malcolm Collins: to one maybe. I, I assume somebody on the team is Yeah. Like the kind of person who takes

Simone Collins: like a year of maternity leave because they’re like, yeah, I really.

Malcolm Collins: This honestly sounds to me like somebody who just had a kid and is fantasizing about what it’s gonna be like to raise him instead of having actually raised a kid.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I think we all have, especially like, no, probably all of us have that friend on social media who hasn’t yet had kids, but is like, and this is how I’m going to be a mother and it’s gonna be so much better.

Malcolm Collins: But the, the point here being is that if the child, it’s implied here, does not walk with you or crawl to the table.

Mm-hmm. They don’t want their nappy chain. They just

Simone Collins: get to live with diaper rash. They get to have anal fissures and open lesions. They’re [00:13:00] into crinkling.

Malcolm Collins: Simone, lots of furries are into this that we need to be aware of their furry identity. No, I

Simone Collins: think, I don’t, here’s the thing is like, I think furry, like, sorry.

Adult baby diaper lovers. A b dls love, love to do it. Like they get off on the rush, maybe making other people smell there. The product of their defecation. However, anyone who’s actually dealt with poop and diapers, like either, because like, I don’t know, they’re bedridden and they’re wearing a diaper and there’s poop.

Or like they’ve had a kid who has gone to a crappy daycare where they don’t change their kid’s diaper and their kid ends up with like open wounds in their butt because of their terrible daycare. Thank God we don’t send our kids to daycare anymore. You know, like long-term exposure to, to poop is really bad for this kid.

It’s really bad. Like, no, I don’t think ADLs are, are crinkling for very long. If [00:14:00] anything it’s, it’s urine. It’s not the other thing, it’s nothing. I don’t

Malcolm Collins: know about that. I mean, I’ve read, I’ve, I’ve watched the rainforest documentaries on YouTube. Okay. Simone. The, the point I make is did

Simone Collins: they leave some of their nappies in the elevators though?

Like the, the, the diaper has been removed,

Malcolm Collins: the hot tubs and stuff and like, yeah,

Simone Collins: so the diaper has been removed. Like they’re not walking around with it. Like also our kids sometimes without like informing us before we even smell it. Like, we’ll just go ahead and just take off the diaper. And that’s always the scariest when you can smell it and then your kid walks up to you, your pre potty trained kid without pants and without their diaper and you’re like, oh god.

Malcolm Collins: That is, that is horrifying. But the point I’m making here is they’re basically saying that the kid can consent to do something. And the reason I highlight this is because I think it, it, it really mirrors youth gender transition where they’re doing something that is actively and obviously harmful to them.

And the adult for like a weird sexualized [00:15:00] reasons is okay with them doing it right? Like, yeah, yeah. The adult doesn’t know better that the kid needs to change their diapers. Right? Well,

Simone Collins: or it’s, I mean this could be if we’re gonna be super charitable, part of the other better parenting trend, which is the f around and find out parenting trend which we 100% ascribe to, which is alright, you wanna see how that goes?

Let’s see how that goes. Except the problem is typically when we’re talking about p pre potty trained children, they’re not really old enough to understand that cause and effect. So I think it’s an unfair and unduly cruel f around and find out parenting hack, if that’s what this is.

Malcolm Collins: To continue observe their facial expressions and body language to check if they don’t understand what is happening.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: Aim to be positive, gentle, and responsive to your child. The one

Simone Collins: thing that your kid has done since the moment they got out of the womb is having people change their diapers. S like,

Malcolm Collins: next. Well, no, I love this, this, this. Like, you gotta be positive and gentle all the [00:16:00] time. It reminds me of the harmony hut from like the Adams family.

It’s like,

Simone Collins: oh, what’s going on? What, what is happening to me? No. They know this has happened at a minimum of every three hours for as long as they can remember. Like, this is not a new and traumatic event. I, I can’t,

Malcolm Collins: I think you can make it a traumatic event by like doing all this stuff that this is talking about.

Oh yeah.

Simone Collins: Would you, would you like consent for me to change your diaper? Are you okay? Me? Oh my God. You

Malcolm Collins: know what, what scares me now is because I’m seeing your face doing that and you’re like a beautiful woman. And I’m imagining the people who actually do it look like complete, like gremlins. And now I’m like, oh God.

Like that’s, that’s even more horrifying.

Simone Collins: I have to send you a YouTube short where someone does a bit on, like, you just had a baby and your husband says he has gas, and it, you’ll get it. Or maybe, maybe you won’t if you haven’t seen me, like do all the, the antiga and an anti constipation exercises on our kids, but yeah, no.

When, when you actually like, think about [00:17:00] what babies are experiencing from their point of view, from adults during all of the like, baby treatment experiences, I don’t know. It, it is not my thing, it’s not my fetish. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: I’m glad. I’m glad. So, children are often encouraged to be distracted in nappy changes, to focus their attention on something else. For example, a well-meaning parent signs a song, sings a song to them or gives them a rattle to hold. But it’s important.

Children notice when someone is touching their most intimate parts and it says, don’t distract your child. Why is it important that the child notice when somebody’s touching them? Like that again, seems weird. Like, why, why do I want my kid? It’s like, I really want you to focus on what I’m doing to you right now.

Like be completely here in this zone as I change you. Right? I, you know, I wonder how these weird fetishes develop and now I’m like, may, maybe this is it like parents who ritualize [00:18:00] diaper changes?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Seriously. Even

Malcolm Collins: in early infancy, children can respond to consistent verbal cues. So try to use similar language and follow a regular nappy exchanging

Simone Collins: ritual.

Oh, so now we’re ritualizing it now. Now it’s like A-B-D-S-M practice. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: It involve children in the conversation. For example, can you please lift up your bottom so I can slide your nappy out? Oh, oh,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is sounding like someone with a, a baby fetish. It does, right? Oh, no. Is that what this is?

No, don’t make me listen to this. Oh God, no. This is

Malcolm Collins: university research approved by one of the wokes. That

Simone Collins: doesn’t mean it’s not

Malcolm Collins: that.

Simone Collins: Come on, come on. No, no, no. Oh, okay. Just let’s get through it. Let’s white knuckle it.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. And then they say these habits plant the seed of the idea that a child has a right to say what happens to their body.

And, and it is taking us to a blog family, how good diaper changes tells babies about the [00:19:00] world. But anyway, before I, I, I go to that. Then of course, what’s the next most important thing while you’re giving the baby the creepy diaper change? It’s be kind to yourself. Of course, some nappy changes that need to be more rushed are in the odd place.

Perhaps you are late for work or you need to pull over to the side of the road road to do so in an urgent position. The habits we outline above may seem to add more work to the already demanding parental load. So try to do them as often as possible and be kind to yourself. If every nappy change isn’t perfect for moments of connection, you’re a supporting a small child.

After all, use the proper terms. While you’re doing the nappy change. Use the correct anatomical terms. Oh, no. Vulva, penis, and anus. No,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We have euphemisms for that. Like I don’t pretend to be the best potty trainer or talk about private [00:20:00] parts person with our kids, and I will say that I’ve recently learned things from other people.

Like from our neighbors, we learned about the words Doty and flippy. And I think that that’s great and

Malcolm Collins: is for boys and doty is for girls. Yeah.

Simone Collins: And you know what, that is what we call That’s right. It’s

Malcolm Collins: completely non sexualized. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think it works better for, for you know, the morphological traits that children have as opposed to like

Simone Collins: a dog.

Maybe a great word for it. Why on earth would you call it anything else? Why would you call it a vulva like that? Yeah. Doty sounds way better. I, yeah. There’s honestly like no word for, there’s no word for the thing. Be betwixt, the ladies and others that I think is fun. But the

Malcolm Collins: reason, the reason why I think it’s important to do this to, to have these other words is as adults, sexual organs are inherently sexualized, was in our mental context.

And they’re going, they’re mean to be.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And they’re going to be for children as they learn these adult [00:21:00] words. Right. Because that’s the context they’re going to learn them in, right? Like mm-hmm. That’s the context they are spoken of in society. That’s the context that they are 99.99999% of the time when somebody is talking about one of them.

Because people are very sexual beings as adults is going to be in a sexualized context. And so to desexualize them in the way that you’re directing with them because they are not sexual organs for children. They’re

Simone Collins: body

Malcolm Collins: parts. Yeah. I mean, well

Simone Collins: especially ‘cause like you pee out of. I mean, for men, you, you pee out of one like, it, it doesn’t ha like it.

You spend, the men’s vast majority of interactions or uses of their IES is for urination, for eliminating liquid waste. You know, like it’s not, yeah. It, so, so, you know, if, if, if 99% of your usage of a, a body part is, is about elimination, why is your first thing to do to sexualize it? That is so weird. Right.

Malcolm Collins: But it makes sense in their world. Framework. Remember, in their world framework, like [00:22:00] everything is sexualized to an extent because that’s one of the core things of identity, like what you are turned on by most. Yeah. For example, you know, if it, if it’s same sex interactions, if it’s if know furries, if it’s something else that’s like a huge core part of your identity, right?

Which we would argue it’s a fairly trivial part of your identity. And, and, and I think that that is why they sexualize things so early. And so it, it goes on to say in regards to that, like, it knows the way we’re gonna react. It says parents may feel uncomfortable doing this and think more childish names should be used, but this keeps children safe.

That means they can inform trusted adults about their experiences with all the people who care for them. That is. I if the kids have a word for it, childish or not, they can express it to you. Right. They do not need the sexualized term for it. Like, it is weird that you are saying that and that makes you one of the adults, like if a kid came to me and he immediately knew one of these words, that could be a big red flag to me that somebody was having inappropriate conversations with [00:23:00] them.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. We would be worried, wouldn’t we?

Malcolm Collins: And so it actually gives you additional warning when something bad is happening

Simone Collins: and no, we’re, we are not like early colonial Quakers where when women would go see doctors, anything that was between like their head and their knees was like my stomach. They, they, you know, they, they would never talk about those things.

I think that’s a problem too. Like you have to be able to talk about body parts and we use euphemisms for them. But like, you know, so, so we’re not saying, don’t talk about, we’re not saying don’t pretend it’s there. We’re not, and, and it’s, we mentioned earlier, like our whole house is like. I mean, we live in a really old house too, so like private bathrooms aren’t exactly a thing.

They’re just fricking toilets everywhere. Yeah. Oh, so like no one, no one believes in privacy or boundaries or anything. And like there’s no, no concept of like, oh, except, no, it’s not, no, no one, no one’s nervous about nudity though. They are concerned about dressing properly around people because at first I was like, oh, like though Torsten [00:24:00] always takes off his clothes and all of our kids do at a, when we had a birthday party after he went to the bathroom, but his costume wasn’t on properly, he was like really self-conscious about that.

So I know he knows the difference. Like he wants to properly dressed, he just doesn’t care if people see. So yeah, I don’t know. Like, I think this is another, another instance in which the left is way too, or like the urban monoculture, I should say, is way too in its head. Like it overthinks. Well, it’s not

Malcolm Collins: in its head.

I mean, I think they’re hurting kids. So another thing that they talk about in this article, and I won’t go into it a lot, is in that you shouldn’t kiss or hug your kids without consent. And I also think that this is really messed up. If you’ve actually had toddler kids and you’ve had a lot of them, because not all toddlers are like this.

Some of our kids, they don’t care about being kissed. But other of our kids, they like to put up a whole fight about being kissed or hugged and they want to be kissed or hugged. It’s just a game for them, right? Like people are like this. They, they have fun being playfully bratty in a non-sexual [00:25:00] context, right?

Like and yeah, like we have

Simone Collins: one kid who will literally, even though they want something, I’ll be like, do you want a cookie? No. Yes. But everything has to start with no, no, no. Yes, yes.

Malcolm Collins: One of my favorites with Whippy that came up with our kids was one of my kids, we moved him to the, the older kid seat, you know, like the, the booster seat.

And I was like, okay, you’re, you’re in the booster seat now. And he goes, oh, it’s because my F’s bigger.

Simone Collins: Are you serious? Oh God. I mean, that’s, that is the size of the thing that we it matters, I guess some measurement. Gotta get out there. I was gonna say calipers, but what would you even use to measure a Whoopi?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So to measure and stick, we can go over more of this. We, we’ve got one here. This is early childhood. Australia nappy changes and toilet [00:26:00] learning to go into like just a, a, a, a medium part of this recon, contextual recontextualizing nappy changes and toilet key times as learning requires educators to facilitate opportunities for children to be actively involved, this supports children to learn how to lead their toilet experiences independently in the future.

Your toilet

Simone Collins: experience, it’s very weird. Wow. I mean, I, I think it’s a toilet experience When you have one of those really nice Japanese toto toilets and you get to push the buttons and stuff, that is toilet experience. I’ll support that.

Malcolm Collins: This is, this is very strange language to me here. It’s important for toileting to be an autonomous activity led by the child and not a process that families or educators accelerate through training.

Ble etal 2019. Why? Well, yeah,

Simone Collins: that’s su because first off, if you are [00:27:00] enjoying the process of changing your kids’ diapers to the extent where you are not dying to get them potty trained, I’m questioning you. But like our kids were not even close to getting potty trained until we started bribery. And every, like, it was both their, their, their, they were in daycare at the time, so their daycare teachers and their a BA therapists.

‘cause these were our older, already diagnosed with, diagnosed with autism. Kids were like, yeah, bribery, marshmallows works every bribery. Yeah. That’s what you do. Bri ‘em, yeah. Or grease payments, if you will.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, you’re using your power of systemic privilege over the child and power over them to, because they don’t have access to resources.

This is what’s like financial abuse, but nutritional abuse,

Simone Collins: systemic privilege of marsh, right?

Malcolm Collins: Saying, I’ll only, I’ll only give you access to your allowances if you do, and YI only give you access to marsh systemic

Simone Collins: to the defecation box. Right. We’ve recently been having a lot of conversations about what we do to things that defecate in the wrong [00:28:00] place in our house because I’ve, we live in a very old house that has a lot of holes into the outside and there’s a lot of food in our house and also a lot of kids that produce crumbs.

So what do we have? Mice? Of course. So I’ve been killing the mice. A lot of mice. And the kids like to see the mice, and then we talk about why, ‘cause the mice are so cute and fluffy and soft, as Octavian likes to point out. He cried yesterday. When he saw it, he was like, I wanna see it. And then he started crying and I’m like, you asked to see it.

He’s like, why did it have to die? And I’m like, because it poops, it eats our food and it poops on the table and it poops in our food and it ruins things. And he’s like, oh, I’ll teach it to not poop. I’ll teach it to poop in the potty. And he understood because I’m like, well, what happens? This one poops in the wrong place in my house?

And and he’s like, you kill them. And I’m like, that’s right Octavian. That is how you raise kids. This, this is how you have potty conversations. Did you say what’s gonna happen if you poop in the wrong place? That that’s the implied insinuation and all of our kids understand it. Torsten gets it. I can’t [00:29:00] remember one of, one of our kids, only one of our kids though.

No, it was Torsten. We just decided to poop on the floor. I think it was Torsten. One of our kids did it intentionally and like proudly walked into the room and was like,

Malcolm Collins: oh my God. Here’s another line from this one. Okay. Through. A attuned routine experiences children feel safe and are encouraged to stay present in the moment.

They learn that educators listen carefully to what they say and pay attention to verbal and nonverbal cues you.

Simone Collins: So it’s not even about like that euphoric moment where like you really had to go to the bathroom and you’re finally relieving yourself. It’s the, the euphoria in pleasing your superiors.

Malcolm Collins: So this, this was written by a Dr.

Kathleen Bussy, an infant and toddler specialist academic from New Zealand.

Simone Collins: What is it with, why, why in Oceania are there all [00:30:00] these, these potty perverts?

Malcolm Collins: What’s going on? There’s a lot of weird stuff in Australia, at New Zealand, if I’m gonna be honest. In regards to like, just about everything that I’ve seen,

Simone Collins: stop work with me here, right?

So like around Utah. There’s a lot of interest in like polygamy and like in the Appalachian region. There’s like more interest in vre, right? Like the ultimate sport hunting humans. What if like the unique evolved fetish in Oceania is, is pet potty stuff?

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. Well, they, the other thing I’ve seen uniquely there is furry stuff.

There’s a lot of

Simone Collins: correlation. I’m just saying ‘cause it’s a little weird, isn’t it? A little convenient that all these, it’s a little

Malcolm Collins: weird. That it’s a lot of,

Simone Collins: but also like we’ve seen in all these other instances, just like these clusters of sexual proclivities. I’m just, I’m just saying [00:31:00] arousal pathways not even sexual.

Just like I love talking about diapers. I love the ritual of talking about the consent of bathrooms. I wonder if these, you got another one here. Science and academia wearing diapers and having someone else change their diapers for science.

Malcolm Collins: So this, this blog called Scary Mommy. She Goes, last year I was on Facebook and I saw one of my friends talking about an article he had read on teaching babies consent by asking them permission before changing their diaper.

Mm-hmm. And then she goes on. My friend, like many others, including myself at first thought this concept that’s pretty out there to say the least so, you know, right. Like, she understands it’s crazy. Then she goes down the rabbit hole. So to skip ahead of it, okay. She explained that even though babies cannot verbally give consent, she believed it was important to establish a quote unquote culture of consent within the family from birth.

Obviously, the word consent is used to imply that there is anything. Obviously the word consent is not used to imply that there’s [00:32:00] anything sexual happening about diaper changes, but the expert points out the importance of using consent language and making eye contact to teach our kids even from a young page that we are present, that we acknowledge them, that they are included in the process.

Wait, are you supposed

Simone Collins: to make eye contact while changing diapers per their view? That’s extra creepy. What? No. Imagine. Imagine if someone were changing your diaper and they made eye contact while they did it.

Malcolm Collins: But why, why any of these things? Why does the child need to feel your present? Like actually I, I’d say a lot of time when I, well, I dunno, I

Simone Collins: so dogs when they’re taking a, a dump outside, well, if you’re right by them, you know that they’re looking at you.

They’re, they’re, you know, they’re checking, they’re vulnerable. They wanna know you got their back.

Malcolm Collins: Right. I don’t think that that’s what she means. I think she means it in like a hippie way. Like being present in yourself. And that you acknowledge them. Do you, do you need to [00:33:00] acknowledge your kid taking a dump?

I, I

Simone Collins: don’t wanna be nothing that will make me feel more acknowledged than someone wiping my butt. And I mean, I can say this having been, you know, like every 18 months I get hospitalized and someone puts a catheter in me and then they have to take it out. Like people, like I’ve had, I’ve had diaper changing equivalent experiences, right?

Like. And I’m glad they don’t make eye contact and I’m glad that I’m not in the moment when that happens,

Malcolm Collins: you’re not like, okay, now I need you to, we need to have this be a joint experience here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, man. Like I always try to give them to take the catheter out before all the woozy drugs fully wear off.

‘cause I don’t really wanna be all there when that happens. Like, I, I just can’t,

Malcolm Collins: Okay, hold on. I guess it gets while we’re here. In short, the point of having a dialogue with our babies during diaper changes and making eye contact with them is to show them respect and to teach them that they deserve it.

I,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, no, [00:34:00] no, no. For me, this is like, oh, you gotta smile, smile. But then like, what, what is it? Gorillas, when they like bear their teeth, it’s a sign of like aggression. Like that. I, I feel like making eye contact with someone in that kind of intimate moment, especially, you know, if you are doing this with a squirming child and holding them down like that is.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, hold on. It gets weirder because this one compares it to being old and says this is the way she’d want to be treated as an old person. Oh,

Simone Collins: no. Confirmed. A BDL confirmed A BDL confirmed. She’s in it. She’s in it. She’d be a crinkler if she’s not already. And you know what, there are a lot of very successful furries.

Like I, I’ve, I’ve been following a lot of furry subreddits recently. ‘Cause like, you know, we wanna like advertise to them. Well, I mean,

Malcolm Collins: furries are like fine. Like furries. No.

Simone Collins: Yeah. The point, the exact point I’m making is like, there’s some of the more popular furry clips that I saw recently, like on, on furry subreddits is people interviewing furries at a conferred convention.

And they’re like, well, what do you do for work? And it’s like, oh, I’m an anesthesiologist, I’m a [00:35:00] professor, I am like all these things, all these very like. You are an educated, competent person whose financial affairs are in order ‘cause they kind of have to be forgetting a $16,000 fur suit. Like these are cool based people who understand themselves.

I think maybe her problem is she doesn’t know she’s an ab BDL And also, I’m not saying offers are ADLs. I’ll read it and you can

Malcolm Collins: tell me your thoughts. Okay. So, envision being extremely old, so old that you have become very sick and you have lost your ability to care for yourself or even talk, you completely rely on someone to be your caregiver baby.

No, you’re relying

Simone Collins: on, on a, a grok robot Thank to changing your

Malcolm Collins: adult diaper. Now hold on, hold on. I’m not done. Imagine how it would feel to go through all those processes with no dialogue and no information about what was about to happen. None or very little eye contact, but instead of being moved and or held down like a doll, for me that personally sounds like a horror movie.

I would [00:36:00] want to have an idea of what was coming next. So what I love about this is tell on yourself

Simone Collins: without telling on yourself. Lady.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Just so you know, it sounds like a horror movie to me that I’m like, locked in and can’t move, and I’ve got this assistant who like stares at me in the eyes while they’re changing my diapers.

Simone Collins: I’m,

Malcolm Collins: I’m gonna change your diapers now. I’m very present in the moment, and you’re very acknowledged. I’m gonna begin now. Let’s talk about your penis and, oh, God,

Simone Collins: no. I mean like, oh my God, yes.

Worst nightmare. Worst nightmare. Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, that happens to people though. There’s real people stuck in situations like that, you know, like,

Simone Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I thank goodness that most of them are like, you know, it’s an immigrant who barely speaks English, who would never do that to you because they, they understand one, that that would be a miserable experience for everyone involved. They’re, they’re disassociating in a very proactive and [00:37:00] productive way as they’re doing it.

And so, are you all right that, that is how it’s done? That’s how we always do it. That’s how we have done it, and that’s how we will continue to do it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, or maybe, you

Simone Collins: know, there’s also just the base Chinese model which is interesting where, and I remember seeing this when I traveled through China.

Just kids are walking around with nothing. They’re just free balling it. Even like the little chili, it’s coming

Malcolm Collins: to The Bahamas too.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Where

Malcolm Collins: I live down there, see, it’s coming in a lot of places. It

Simone Collins: just solves the problem. There is no conversation because the kid just, I don’t know, like they go somewhere, they got pot, they like, they potty trained really early as a result.

But like,

Malcolm Collins: I know, I, what I’ve noticed is a lot of ‘em just go outside. Because a lot of this is in, in places where you can, yeah. Where you can just

Simone Collins: kinda wander outside and, and yeah. Do your thing. Yeah. It works. I mean, so I mean, if, if this is really your issue, talk about autonomy, right? Talk about self-empowerment.

Here’s an article from the adult, adult out of the conversation. It’s the free bleeding of, of toddler or diaper changes.

Malcolm Collins: Here’s an article for Motherly. It’s never too early to teach kids about consent. These books can help and it [00:38:00] goes over a bunch of books. And in one part it says, what is body autonomy?

Let’s talk about boundaries, consent, and respect. In its simplest form, consent is giving permission for something to happen. Little feminist, we love the term, my body is mine. We aim to give parents and caregivers the tools to create positive habits around bodily autonomy, not assuming consent from children and teaching that kids have a right to decide what happens to their bodies.

Oh, I love this. They talk about raising empathetic body positive kids. We want our kids to understand that their body is their own and the importance of respecting each other’s bodies and boundaries. It, it literally sounds like Camp Chippewa from the the does. You’re right. It sounds like you, it sounds.

Horrifying to me, I have always identified so much was the Adams family, and never more than in this moment in terms of like child rearing. [00:39:00] We totally have to do an episode on the Adams family episode on school and like, just got so many great lines and it’s from the original Adams family. It’s

Simone Collins: delightful.

Did you watch it after I shared some clips with you?

Malcolm Collins: No, I haven’t. I haven’t seen the whole thing yet, so, no.

Simone Collins: It’s, it’s so fun. They had the,

Malcolm Collins: I, I saw the one that you sent me where they were like, well, you know, your kids were going through all this at school and like, it may not be right for, for your kids, but like, what about all the other kids?

And then he’s like, what about all the other kids? Like he decides he needs to rescue all the kids from school. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Oh my God. Here’s a weird one. It’s an article why I don’t make my kids Apologize by Motherly.

Simone Collins: What? I mean, I kind of get it ‘cause actions speak louder than words. Well,

Malcolm Collins: hold on. No, no, no, no, no. It’s worse than that. So it starts, do my children have to share? No. Do my children have to apologize?

Nope. [00:40:00] Do I suggest that they say the quote unquote magic word again? No. Base.

Simone Collins: Just if you want it, take it. If they don’t give it to you, punch them. This woman that, that is,

Malcolm Collins: this is she’s raising like. And I love it monsters. And, and what I love is there were other parents, and I was gonna go into this in more detail where there was some moms that tried to raise their kids this way and they realized it was a horrible thing.

So here’s a, a post from one of them. I validated it. Every emotion processed, every feeling extensively explained every boundary. Oh. Compromised on saying avoided harsh punishments. I thought I was doing it right. Then my kids got older and I started seeing the results in real time. Mm-hmm. One kid became anxious about everything, even choosing a snack.

Mm-hmm. Insecure in their abilities, entitled, everything’s set for debate, emotionally disregulated outbursts constantly. Mm-hmm. The other kid became too [00:41:00] easy, people pleasing, suppressed real feelings, absorbed everyone’s emotions withdrawn. I thought I was just quote unquote being a teenager. It wasn’t, or I thought it was just mm-hmm.

I cried a lot. I had tried so hard to do everything right, to do things different from what I had growing up. Here’s what I realized this is like how they, they, they screwed up their kids. Right,

Simone Collins: right. But she’s talking, you can see also, I mean, not to bring in the whole nature versus nurture thing, but like she’s really a person who has anxiety or like depression issues, emotional regulation problems.

Yeah.

Was it any surprise that, I mean, it probably, regardless of any approach she would’ve taken, her kids would’ve been emotionally dysregulated. ‘cause it’s fairly clear from even this short excerpt that she herself is emotionally dysregulated.

Malcolm Collins: She, she said she shifted to authoritative parenting with high structure.

Simone Collins: It’s probably not gonna change anything because her kids are genetically wired that way. I don’t know how to say, hold

Malcolm Collins: on, hold on. So she shifted to [00:42:00] authoritative parenting. Okay. Has clear boundaries, consistent limits and natural consequences, which is what we do, right? Yeah. And she said the shift happened faster than she expected.

Oh. She saw less anxiety over decisions, more confidence to try new things, less negotiating and entitlement Aw and better regulation.

Simone Collins: Well, that’s great. Now she just needs to do that for herself. But that would involve leaving whatever progressive academic circle she works in.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, this, this woman is just like a mom.

And she, she now says that she can spot wi in five minutes when kids were raised by gentle parents. She says these kids are anxious about everything, making simple choices, saying how they really feel handling any disappointment, setting their own boundaries. And that’s because parents emotionally charge individual, like mistakes the kids make and everything like that.

Like everything is overly emotional when you remove all of the, you know, just slap him, knock it off. Y your little, you know, I’m gonna go do my own [00:43:00] thing. That’s what I was called growing up a little s**t. I don’t even know if you’re allowed to do that anymore. That is by the way an Appalachian name.

Even in the, the from the greater Appalachian tradition of what they called kids historically. They integrated

Simone Collins: it. Yeah, I think, I think it was innovated in. The American colonies by the, the Appalachian, the Greater Appalachian diaspora.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I, I’m afraid to call my kids little s***s ‘cause I’m afraid of like a news team hearing it.

But it is.

Simone Collins: Well, and we’re just a, we’re trying not to use bad words around them just in general. But it, it’s, it’s a bummer. ‘cause it’s, you know, it’s part of your,

Malcolm Collins: well, the point being is, is what’s going through my head emotionally. Just like knock it off you a little s**t. You know, like that. And, and with them, they’re, they’re validating the emotions.

They’re validating even the bad behavior by getting, you know, all up about it. Right. And it leads to the kids over emotionalizing everything. And our kids just like, do not do that at all. Like, we have autistic kids, but we do not have anxious kids. And I think our kids would be hyper prone to this sort of behavior if it, we [00:44:00] validated.

Simone Collins: Gosh, yeah. It, it didn’t occur to me just how lucky we are, that our kids aren’t anxious.

Malcolm Collins: They really don’t

Simone Collins: seem to dread anything.

Malcolm Collins: No. They love playing. They love pushing each other around. They love doing dangerous things. Too much.

Simone Collins: Too

Malcolm Collins: much. I did it to the kid. I jumped off the, the, the third story. But I know like in

Simone Collins: the end as much as like I complained about our kids risky behavior, you were 10 times worse.

So it’s fine.

Malcolm Collins: I

Simone Collins: guess

Malcolm Collins: I, I mean I, I do get worried about them sometimes accidentally doing some of the things that I did like, okay, here’s an example. You, you should, you should warn your kids against this. The, the mattress on the stairwell goes way faster than you would think it goes. Did you ever try a mattress on a stairwell?

Simone Collins: No. I did a sleeping bag and you know, that allows your butt to fall on each step’s. Hurts a lot, but you know, you do go down fairly fast and it’s fun.

The mattress [00:45:00] just

Malcolm Collins: so far, when did you do that? See, we gotta warn our kids about that. ‘cause that’s that one’s coming up. Oh God. But she says when she talks about what digital parents actually do, they say they turn validation into overprocessing, share adult problems their kids can’t handle, avoid conflict.

Instead of teaching resilience, make children responsible for family emotions. The result, anxious people, pleasing kids who monitor your feelings instead of expressing their own.

Simone Collins: Well, to be fair, I didn’t expect it to go in that direction that they, like I didn’t obsessed with what you think.

Malcolm Collins: No, because you, that’s what you’re doing.

You’re heightening your own, you’re, you’re telling the kids that they should be monitoring your emotional state. You’re being like, look at how what you are doing is making me feel right. Mm-hmm. Like your actual child play behavior where they’re playing like a little pack of wolves, right? Mm-hmm. They’re playing like a sanitized whatever.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They’re in some terrifying social experiment anyway. Oh gosh. [00:46:00] Thank you for being a, a low stress based parent. It’s great parenting. You are higher

Malcolm Collins: stress than I am. And I had to tell you, knock it off sometimes. But I

Simone Collins: just think that there’s something instinctual about mothers and it really hit me when I watched around this, this past holiday home alone.

Alone where like the rest of the family, Kevin McAllister, like an 8-year-old kid or something, is left home alone. His family goes to Paris without him. And they realize they have to go back and get him ‘cause they left him home. And the mother goes through the most painful process of going home, driving people, spending tons of money, begging, writing in a road trip with some kind of poka band.

And she gets home ultimately like five minutes before the rest of the family that just took the next available flight that was direct.

Malcolm Collins: And that’s you, you, you overwork for every part of parenting and then gets.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: five minutes earlier, right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Like she added like 10 years to her life in that experiment in [00:47:00] experience, and everyone else just did the normal reasonable thing.

But I feel like that, that was in the movie and it was meaningful because it really it, it encapsulates the plight of the mother where the mother without consent or willingness feels this level of burden and concern and inability to restrain herself in going above and beyond for her kids. Even when it, she logically understands that it doesn’t help.

But I would say it’s a double-edged sword as much as like the weird hormonal shift that makes me love our kids. And that makes me do insane things that aren’t actually helpful, but like I just feel like I have to do them for our kids is, can be damaging. Like Tex just had the worst diaper blowout of his life so far, and there was poop everywhere.

And the, the whole room still smells intensely of it. But you know what it smells like to me, smells like buttered [00:48:00] popcorn.

It

smells great.

Really, because your brain is, I love the

smell of my child’s poop. It smells great. It’s wonderful. I’m, I’m like, it doesn’t smell that way to

Malcolm Collins: me, by the way, but male, male brains do rewire.

No, but

Simone Collins: then that’s the, that’s the point I’m making is it’s a double-edged sword. Like the same weird hormonal brainwashing that has taken me over, which we didn’t like. I thought I wasn’t gonna love our kids, right? Like, I had no maternal instincts. The same thing that makes me do all this stupid stuff where I fuss over them and I have to braid our girls’ hair.

And you’re like, don’t do it. It’s a waste of time. And I’m like, I have to, I have to get their hair, their clothes just so, and I want them all bundled up and warm and all these things, right? You’re like, they don’t need it. It’s fine. And I have to do it. You’re like, you’re

Malcolm Collins: like, why isn’t anyone wearing pants?

And I, but you,

Simone Collins: you can’t tolerate the smell of their, their poops. And for some reason, and this doesn’t happen to everyone, but it does happen to some people, like at least especially younger kids, poops. Smell. Fantastic.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I’ve heard, and, and, and and children’s heads, like [00:49:00] women really like the smell of

Simone Collins: No.

You, you can smell baby’s heads. I, I actually can’t smell that one. Oh really? And I, I’m, I’m very, I bet there’s some kind of gene, like, you know how there’s like a gene where like you won’t taste the bitterness in broccoli and you can see this new 23 me and stuff. Like, oh, you don’t taste bitterness and this is why you can eat pig slop.

And things like that. Right. But, and, and you, you actually, I think you have the gene and I don’t, which is maybe one reason why I eat the lop I eat and you don’t. And why I like unsweetened chocolate and all these other things. ‘cause I literally don’t taste some element of bitter that you do. But I do think that there’s some gene that, that has to do with like, being able to smell some kind of pheromone or chemical that infants release from their head.

Malcolm Collins: I wouldn’t be surprised at all. Yeah. ‘

Simone Collins: cause you smell it right? And your mom smelled it.

Malcolm Collins: I smell it. I’m not like intensely drawn to it, but it’s definitely a different and pleasant smell.

Simone Collins: That’s weird. I, I, and I mean, I would tell you right, if I’m telling you the embarrassing details of their poop, smell

Malcolm Collins: it, it smells like talcum [00:50:00] powder is what it smells like.

What?

Simone Collins: Well, I’m glad I smell the poop instead because one, there’s a lot more poop and, well, I guess you’re always around the babies, but I, I like, I really like butter popcorn, so it works out

Malcolm Collins: well. Yeah. There’s other smells that like, smell fantastic. And you’re supposed to like, gasoline smells fantastic.

Oh,

Simone Collins: yes.

Malcolm Collins: And everyone pretends like it’s this horrible smell and I’m like,

Simone Collins: no,

no. Oh, I bet people have made gasoline scented candles, which are probably really bad for you. But I hope they’ve nailed it.

Malcolm Collins: That would be fun. Yeah. Yeah. Gasoline. It would be better than having gasoline, so. You can get them in Marvel.

The, they have like a turn base game that you can get it as a gift. Like diesel candles, jet fuel candles was another one. You know, like really? Yeah. So I thought, you know, that, that, that it must exist somewhere if it exists in video games. Right.

Simone Collins: Oh, that’s great. Well, I didn’t expect to be talking about [00:51:00] this but I love our conversation so much.

And speaking of buttered popcorn, what would you like for dinner?

Bullock?

Malcolm Collins: No, I’m, I’m, I’m not feeling well at all. I want something really easy on the stomach. Pumpkin soup po. Do we have pesto?

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: How did we get through it so fast? I thought we got some more and we had it one night.

Simone Collins: So I made from Thai basil, like I have, I have cubes of.

Of minced Thai basil and olive oil that I can thaw and saute with noodles. So we have elbows that I, that I made last night. So we, we have noodles and I can saute noodles and pesto for you if you want.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, wow. That could be pretty good actually.

Simone Collins: I’ll I’ll thaw out one of the cubes of the Thai basil.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m thinking here. Is this gonna be, is this gonna be like, do I want with like, or

Simone Collins: would you prefer, because you can also have pumpkin soup with Hawaiian bun and American cheese like you’ve been eating recently.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You know, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go for more pumpkin soup, especially if you can get [00:52:00] another one of the chicken ones.

Simone Collins: I think we have some more of those. Yeah. So chicken, pumpkin soup, Hawaiian bun with cheese, or not

Malcolm Collins: without cheese. Open face, toasted.

Simone Collins: Oh, you just want a plain Hawaiian bun.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then I’ll scoop it in the soup and it’ll taste really good.

Simone Collins: Ah, scooper super. Yeah, fine. All right.

Malcolm Collins: The pizza you made yesterday was a little undercooked.

It wasn’t very crispy, so just keep in mind whatever you can do to.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Yeah, I, yeah, it’s a, it’s difficult because I, I consider I’m not

giving

feedback while I am doing the kids’ baths and then like the, the timing, you know, it’s either burnt or it’s not coached well enough because I’m like in between telling the kids off you.

Okay. Do you want me to, I can just bring dinner to your room so you can just relax. You want me to go? No, no coming down. Why? Like, is it actually doing you any favors?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I get to spend time with you and the kids.

Simone Collins: I can send one of the kids up to hang out with you after.

Malcolm Collins: No, that’s a good idea actually.

Yeah. But do you feel worse when I don’t spend the night with you? [00:53:00]

Simone Collins: Not if I think you’re uncomfortable. So I just want you to be comfortable. So shall I do that? And then I can send any kid if you’re, whichever kid is being the nicest, whichever kid can sense, will send to hang out with you and watch anime, so.

Sounds good.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. What, what episode do you wanna rent tomorrow? This one or the other one?

Simone Collins: I could go with either.

Malcolm Collins: Look, it was yours. I thought yours was really fascinating.

Simone Collins: I’m so glad. ‘cause at first I thought it was gonna be one of those where were like, no one wants to hear this, blah, blah, blah.

And then No, what you wanna

Malcolm Collins: make the title card is my wife is dissociating. And my wife,

Simone Collins: my wife is in a state of perpetual dissociation.

Malcolm Collins: And then you’re gonna be like, I’m not here. I’m not dealing with this. I

Simone Collins: have to see if like any of the title card photos I’ve taken of myself could like, work for this.

Just be being like, oh. So no. And then you

Malcolm Collins: could, you could round yourself with kids, like have all the, the pictures of the kids [00:54:00]

Simone Collins: being

Malcolm Collins: crazy. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Or maybe I can just include like. Another image of me. So it looks like, I’m think seeing myself from a distance. I’m not sure. Well, I’ll, I’ll figure it out in my morning days like I always do.

Sorry. Sorry, I do have

Malcolm Collins: a sore throat or something. So that’s also why I’m like, Hey, maybe I shouldn’t go down with her.

Simone Collins: Just, just, just relax. Just relax In your room. I will bring you a toasted Hawaiian bun. One or two.

Malcolm Collins: Two. Do you think it’s like maybe really dry and that’s why I have it and I’m not actually like sick.

I can

Simone Collins: put a humidifier in your room, scent it or not. Would you like sense? Yes, I’d like

Malcolm Collins: a scented humidifier. That is the level of,

Simone Collins: You’re, you’re making

Malcolm Collins: me feel so luxurious as scented humidifier and I’ll work on clearing out all the cardboard. That would be nice.

Simone Collins: No, what we’re gonna do is on tomorrow.

Ugh. But the first of, I have to figure out when trash pickup is. But we do it together. I’m trash

Malcolm Collins: right now, so I was just gonna be taking out trashing. Oh, I should clean up my room a bit.

Simone Collins: I thought you were [00:55:00] gonna rest

Malcolm Collins: well. Yeah, but because I got the time to rest now I’ve also got the time to clean up.

Simone Collins: Okay, well if you’re gonna clean up, would you mind then ferrying the kids to the kitchen so I don’t have to go out?

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, sure. Where, when, when do I pick them up? Where do I get them?

Simone Collins: Anytime now I’m ready to take them.

Malcolm Collins: Alright, so what, what do I do? Like I call them and I say,

Simone Collins: yeah, just call, call Stacy and say you’re ready to come.

Pick up the kids and they can start getting like their shoes on and send them down and then, okay, I’ll make their way over. Are you sure though? Because trash day is not, is is kind of messed up, I think because of the holiday. And

Malcolm Collins: I’m sure if it makes your life easier because you’re making my life easier I have to do it because you’re, I mean, it’s

Simone Collins: windy, so I’m a little worried that it’s just gonna be like blown all over.

The,

Malcolm Collins: it’s fine. The, the, the put ‘em in the bin. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay. It, what would mean a lot to me is if you ferried the kids to the, to the kitchen for dinner. And [00:56:00] also if you could see, I’m checking right now to see if the console has been I have a package. Yes, there is a package outside our fence that I’d really love for you to bring in.

And then I will bring your dinner to you and you can relax and do nothing after that if that works for you. We have a deal. We have a

Malcolm Collins: deal. A

Simone Collins: deal, a deal. Our kids love making deals.

Malcolm Collins: This is how I force my wife into these horrible, degrading conditions. She lives in

Simone Collins: lives What? By like handling trash and Sub-Zero conditions.

But you’re letting me do it. Oh, I’m letting you. Mm-hmm. What a privilege.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll be reading my career romance manga. So like, you don’t even need to worry.

Simone Collins: You must see what the sociopathic Empress does next. Who will she feed to the dogs? I love it.

Malcolm Collins: I want more evil. I do not like the, the, the ones where they turn good.

I like them to stay a bit evil. This is, this is what I’m here for. [00:57:00] The vengeance. Not, not even evil, because she’s not like, she’s just really cruel to people who were cruel to her before the timeline.

Simone Collins: She’s just effective. Okay. She just, she she’s effective. She right. She, she’s the finisher. I like it.

A

Malcolm Collins: finisher. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well,

Malcolm Collins: she like mildly regrets in the last life that she had, one of her friend’s tongues ripped out and I was like, you are intense that you’re just like, yeah, that was probably not my best move.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Think there are much better things to remove.

Malcolm Collins: Have a good one, Simone. Love you, Malcolm.

Love you

Simone Collins: too. Mm. You. Are you reading Korean Manga? Of course. It’s important that I

Malcolm Collins: understand it’s your stories. You need them villainous.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This is, so this is the good one. This is one where the main characters truly sociopathic and, and I love those. Yeah. They’re really a villainous. She I’m

Simone Collins: actually a villainous, not just a, a victim.

Well, one

Malcolm Collins: of, one of the [00:58:00] maids who she said she’d, she’d protect if they betrayed someone she fed to dogs. And the other maid thought she was so nice because they thought that she had helped the maid escape rather than pointlessly. After her story was basically done, well fed her to wolves. Okay. And I’m like, yeah, that’s what I’m looking for to villainous.

Okay. I want a wife who does not let stuff slide. You know, you gotta, you gotta tie up all the loose ends. I really, I really see it wouldn’t work in our household perspective on things,

Simone Collins: professor. We’d have to like cook the human meat. Would not be. He doesn’t meat.

Horrible.

Yeah. But because I, you know, like there’ve been some, some nights where I’m like, oh, this is an amazing cut of meat.

Like, it’s really like, like you could even eat it as we were recently gifted, like incredibly high quality meat that we could have probably eaten raw, certain cuts of it. And I, I shared one with her and she was like, what is this? Like, why is this not sauteed in butter? Excuse me. She’s so funny. And then I went to take it away and she’s like, no, [00:59:00] no, no, it’s fine, it’s fine.

She’s so, you’re the wackiest

and

smacky. This is so thematic, Malcolm. And I’m like, so relieved. ‘cause for the past four days, Tex has been super constipated. Like to the point where he, he hasn’t been eating because there’s no room. And then he’ll like get really irritable every two hours. And I’m like getting up all night to.

Because normally he’d be kind of sleeping through the night at this point. But yeah, I just, then this morning there were tiny little, tiny little poops and I was like, uhoh, this is like right before Mountain Vesuvius came, you know, like it blew up, it like little earthquakes and stuff. And it was like, what’s going on?

Huh? And then it happened. The big one, it hit it was. All the way up his back almost to his neck. Almost to his neck. Oh my God. Yeah. It, it blew, he blew. But now he will hopefully be able to, to sleep at night and eat again. And he’s less, I was doing all the things I was doing, the, the stomach massages, the leg, the leg thingies and the, you know, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t, [01:00:00] well, you know what’s up?

Malcolm Collins: You, you’re such a good mother. Look, look at him. He’s still alive. I’m, I’m shocked. He’s been too. Yeah, it was touch and go there in the early days.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, he still has a big divot in his chest from where the tube was in. It makes me so sad every time. It makes me so sad, sir. But I didn’t ask for your consent.

I just did it.

Malcolm Collins: She just saved your life, so that’s horrible. Yeah.

Simone Collins: No, it, to change his diaper just now since that’s what we’re talking about. Right. Anyway, what are we talking about? Yeah. Bring, bring, bring it home.

In this eye-opening conversation, Simone Collins and Malcolm Collins declare 2025 the year climate activism collapsed—and they’re not mincing words. From Greta Thunberg’s pivot to Palestine solidarity, Bill Gates’ major memo shift (”Three Tough Truths About Climate”), Matthew Yglesias rethinking his past positions, and even progressive New York walking back aggressive climate mandates... the movement that once dominated headlines is fading fast.

We dive deep into why: overhyped apocalyptic predictions that never materialized, market forces solving “crises” like peak oil, historical moral panics (Satanic Panic, video games, comics), and the bigger question—what panics are actually justified?

Simone shares her personal journey from hardcore climate activist (saving sea turtles, Earth Day Network, custom environmental major) to realizing many doomsday claims were overblown. We contrast climate with real existential issues like demographic collapse (aka “TISM”), water shortages in major cities, and AI disruption—plus why some panics (ozone hole, Y2K, leaded gas) were worth the freakout and actually got solved.

If you’ve ever donated to climate causes, worried about the apocalypse, or wondered why the vibe shifted from “save the planet” to class conflict & human dignity... this episode is for you.

We also riff on everything from Kylie Jenner housekeepers to hag-maxing Karens channeling maternal energy into Earth-worship, why young men stopped caring when the hot activists aged, and how the prenatal movement avoids the same pitfalls as old climate hysteria.

Episode Transcript:Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today because 2025 was the year that climate activism died.

And I don’t think enough people are talking about it, but major activists and donors and even states are dropping climate change like it’s hot. So we’re, we’re talking about Matthew Glacia, Greta Thunberg, bill Gates, and even the state of New York, which is insane what even New York lost climate change.

I’ll, I’ll go into it. It, it’s, I’m like, okay. I mean, it’s clear we’re, it’s over. It’s over. We, we we’re not trying to make fetch happen anymore.

Speaker: You only fight these causes cause caring cells All you activists can go yourselves That was so inspiring! What a wonderful message!

Simone Collins: And in general that the sentiment has shifted. From saving animals and the earth to class conflict and human dignity. And this is ex exemplified by Fels, like Kylie Jenner being criticized for watching her animal cruelty-free makeup on her housekeepers.

No one cares that it’s animal [00:01:00] cruelty free. They’re like, how dare you? Yeah, I love, I love that you a

Malcolm Collins: housekeeper. She, she got it all cheap or whatever. The, the, this office that was able to do animal testing really cheap, and then they found out it was just because they were doing it on interns.

Simone Collins: There’s, I think there’s that, I heard about that separately, but this, this was this was a, I think a more prominent kerfuffle, but I just think it’s really funny because she, she pays her housekeeper.

The housekeeper obviously consented to it. But I think just mere, I think it’s exemplified because what, what really people are freaking out about is basically in any way using a paid employee, I guess, you know, for anything. And, and to not do it.

Malcolm Collins: It’s a fascinating phenomenon, how hard, how fast and how completely the climate movement was abandoned.

Yeah.

Speaker: Alright, that does it! I f ed it!

Malcolm Collins: We will be teaching our children about the climate movement as a historic movement.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And speaking [00:02:00] of, of historical movement, I think this, this is a there’s a wider question that this development, the 2025 crash of climate activism brings to light, which is, this is of course not the first panic we’ve had.

And I think it’s really important to ask ourselves in light of current panics that are actively going on current things, people are like, we have to spend money on this. We have to change our lives around this. We have to learn. How to better divine what is worth our time because I spent a huge portion of my youth dedicated to climate activism.

That’s what her degree is in. I save the sea turtles. I like spent a summer volunteering to help the baby, sea turtles make it to the ocean and measure the giant sea turtles. And by the way, do you know the secret to stopping a giant sea turtle as they’re making their way back to the ocean? So you can measure her, you stick your knee, you need two people, but you stick your knee behind her front fin and then she can’t move forward.

And then that, that frees you up. Interesting. Yeah. But it doesn’t always work when you get a big enough [00:03:00] turtle, you just can’t stop them. At one point I just watched that one of the Italian volunteers just ride her straight into the ocean. He just like gave up and got on top of her and was like, I mean, like, you’re not supposed to do that, but he’s just like, screw it.

Like I’m going for it. And it was a beautiful thing to watch because there was bioluminescence in the ocean at the time and we’re doing all this overnight, so it’s like dark and just watching an Italian ride into a glowing ocean on a turtle. It is one of those things you’ll never forget in your life.

But the point being is, is you dedicating the point being is that we, we need to, we learn. We need to learn. Yeah. I, I, yeah. And then I studied environmental business. My, I tried to build an entire custom college major around this. I worked for Earth Day Network. This is the group of people who created Earth Day.

I, I worked for the American Council on Renewable Energy. I was extremely dedicated to this. And there are a lot of people now that are extremely dedicated to working on, on AI related apocalyptic organizations and, and working on all sorts of other panics. And so what I wanna do is also go through some historical panics and we’ll also discuss climate change more, and we’ll also discuss the [00:04:00] current crash, because I just think it’s amusing.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and it’s also interesting to talk about from the perspective of you and myself as Yeah, the figureheads of the prenatal movement. Like yeah, demographic

Simone Collins: collapse

Malcolm Collins: is

Simone Collins: another one of those

Malcolm Collins: we’ve gotta freak out about this. And, you know, we should, but the point being is just because something is like. A big problem for civilization or something that’s going to affect everyone.

Yeah. It does not mean that you can turn it into a movement or that it will stay a movement in any point of time. Yeah. Like, right, right. Now that climate chain has crashed out doesn’t mean that anything existential has changed about I mean, depending on, like deforestation for example, is like.

Happening at, it’s still happening, right? Oh, and,

Simone Collins: and I’m gonna get into it too, but also like a lot of major cities Mexico City, I think it’s Sao Paulo South Africa for sure. They’re just running outta water. They’re just drawing down their water tables. I mean, you talked about Iran too, there is going to get a point where they do not have more groundwater to pull from.

There’s going to be nothing left. So some of these are like [00:05:00] existential questions for civilization. Mm-hmm. Well, and so I, I think we, we, yeah. The, the, the larger discussion of this podcast is when is it a justified panic when you need intervention? And I think a justified panic is one where the issue is actually real and imminent.

And one of the big problems with climate change is that, yeah, climate change is real. It’s just not as imminent if as people have repeatedly claimed. And that two will not resolve via normal environmental or market forces. And I think a, a big common factor, and we’ll we’ll discuss this more too, is if something is, is priced into the market, for example, with peak oil.

This wasn’t the big panic that people thought it was, because there are economic incentives for companies to build innovations, to address diminishing oil supplies and to be better at extracting oil because people are willing to pay for it. And as prices go up and people pay more for oil, people who are entrepreneurial are willing to invest in technologies that allow them to extract oil more efficiently.

And so the problem essentially gets resolved.

Malcolm Collins: But I wanna, I, I [00:06:00] wanna take a second to just explain peak oil because some of our fans are young and may not know about this panic. Okay. Peak oil was a panic that was had in the eighties that human civilization would run out of easy. So sources of oil to top

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Like 10 years ago.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and because you would’ve ran out of oil already. We built a civilization on oil, which we, we have. Mm-hmm. That human civilization would collapse at the point that we ran out of oil. Yeah. Now what is, what is interesting about this, and the reason I think is it’s a good thing to sort of meditate on as a crisis is peak oil, you know, within the time period must have seemed like the most obvious problem there could ever be a problem.

Is our civilization based on oil? Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Is the oil supply finite? Yeah. Hundred percent. It runs on magic or something, right? Like obviously it’s finite, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And what happens when we no longer have oil? If civilization runs on oil Yeah. Civilization stops. Yeah. Right. This is simple logic, easy if then, then uhhuh.

This isn’t even [00:07:00] like climate change or something like this, right? Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Where like people could debate the science of it or something. Yeah. This is just like if then, and it went in as a panic. Mm-hmm. And it went out as a panic. And I, I think that something that you did not get to is, I don’t just wanna look at this from the perspective of what are the panics worth having, I wanna look at this from the perspective of how do you create a panic?

Like, okay, that’s fun. Why, why were people ever so panicked about the environment?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and we can also, I’m gonna, I’m gonna walk through some of the historical and recent well, relatively recent moral and social panics, because I think that there are some major moral panics that we really should have had that we never had.

And pretty much every actual moral panic that has taken place over the last a hundred plus years. Totally stupid and unjustified wasn’t ever a problem. Like, why were you wasting your time on this? Well, like in the meantime, your lunch is being eaten by Satan. Essentially. [00:08:00] So, we’ll, we’ll get into that too.

But first, because I really think people, a lot of people haven’t realized that climate change is over as a cause now, but it’s, it’s over. No one cares about it anymore. I wanna make sure people get the memo, and I wanna go through the prominent detractors and, and, and major former activists who have now moved on because I really wanna hammer this home just to make it clear.

Just there are so many people who haven’t. They’re, they’re essentially like that person who’s still living in the bunker, who assumes that the nuclear apocalypse has taken place. And they didn’t realize that the world just kept going on and, and no bomb actually hit. We’ve received letters from people written on like recycled paper using old, like billing envelopes that they didn’t use for payment.

So they’re, everything’s recycled and they’re writing to us being like, how dare you be in support of prenatal when there are too many people in the environment is in crisis. And they just didn’t get the memo. So let’s, let’s just be super clear about. What, what has happened? So let’s start with Matthew Glas.

Though though he later took the [00:09:00] post down on December 28th, so just, just a little bit ago, he posted 10 years ago, I believe that catering to the views of youth climate activists was important, but because I was not paid by the same people who are astroturfing these groups, I was allowed to learn that I was wrong and change my mind in response to information.

And then in, in relation to this, and this is all on X, who

Malcolm Collins: massive, by the way, you, you get a, you know, context.

Simone Collins: He, he’s like a, a major, I think leftist thought like he co-founded Vox. He he’s that guy. Oh, great, great.

He’s the

Malcolm Collins: founder of Vox. That’s what we needed to know. Continue. Okay. Sure.

Simone Collins: Great. So I, in, in relation to this coddled, affluent professional, that’s the ex username posted a few years ago, a full professor of physics offhandedly assured me that climate research was a scam and almost entirely a product of bad incentives in the grant industrial process.

He knew of people doing perfectly reasonable modeling that were forced out of. [00:10:00] Out for lack of funding because they didn’t come to the correct conclusions. Yeah. If you look at academic knowledge production, it’s actually a lot easier to engineer unanimity and consensus than you’d imagine. And then on the subject of youth not actively caring about climate change, we have GRS at Sundberg, the mascot of climate change.

She began vocally supporting Palestinians in criticizing Israel’s actions in Gaza shortly after the escalation of the Israel. Israel. That was a bad

Malcolm Collins: investment, huh? I know.

Simone Collins: Jump salt in October, 2023 though. So like, this isn’t only 2025. When the shift started, when she first made this pivot, she tried to shoehorn it into environmental justice.

But I’m not so convinced. But specifically in a December 20, 23 Guardian op-ed. It, she explained that solidarity with Palestinians aligns with the movement’s longstanding support for marginalized groups facing oppression and then argue that there can be no climate justice [00:11:00] without human rights.

How can there environmental climate justice? Yeah. She’s trying to be like, but Well, but environmentalism is the same as imperialism occupation and humanitarian crises, which it, it is not Ms. Ms. Thunberg. But she was trying to shoehorn it. She was basically pivoting to those issues and trying to be like, no, they’re all the same.

But they’re, they’re not gta, they’re not but technically she’s still active in environmental causes today. Her activism is broadened over time to encompass climate justice. But I think climate justice is just your way of saying, I pivoted away from environmentalism and I don’t wanna admit it. And she, she did participate in an extinction rebellion protest in Venice in November of last year.

Which they, they dyed the, the Grand Canal Green. And I looked at pictures of it and I’m like, I can’t tell what was done. And yes, it was non-toxic dyes, don’t worry. But Extinction Rebellion, which also goes as xr, they, they operate as a grassroots, non-hierarchical network. So basically anyone can organize actions in its name [00:12:00] and they follow these principles of like non-violence, non blaming individuals, et cetera.

But they, they, they try to do creative high visibility protests. They, they’ve done road and bridge blockades and occupations of public spaces and sit-ins and glue ins and lock-ins, and. Symbolic stunts, like fake funerals and dramatic performances and targeted campaigns. But she really, she’s really not focused on environmentalism anymore.

Her, her, she’s

Malcolm Collins: now, by the way, I was trying to figure out what she’s doing post a Flotilla. ‘cause you know that that’s where she was living. That was her main gig. She’s still living at an activist house in London. Yeah, this is, this is what happens. You, you just sort of chill out. No, but I don’t even know like how she can come back from this.

At this point we have another episode like what’s next for like the left? Because

Simone Collins: I know

like

Malcolm Collins: what, and, and it was made so much worse by the situation in Iran right now because the fact that she has done nothing about what the Iranian government is doing, which is exponentially worse Yeah. Than what Israel did.

It, [00:13:00] it really goes to show for her the problem was the Jews. It was not,

And when I say, say she’s done nothing about the situation in Iran, I mean, she has not even made a single tweet about it. She’s able to motivate an entire Flo Tillek instruction when it comes to Gaza, but when it comes to the Iranians, she can’t even lift an actual finger.

Simone Collins: but she, she’s great name recognition. She can bounce back as soon as she wants to. I think she how Oh, reality TV show some kind of pay the media piece writing stupid fluff for the leftists Eat right up. Like, I, I just, I think she’ll be fine.

I just, it’s clear that she, she dropped and, and, and I think also Greta, she comes from a very media savvy family. She, she rode the wave of climate activism and left it because she realized that the attention wasn’t there anymore, and it’s just not. But, you know, while she only really was a mouthpiece that didn’t actively cater to real environmental outcomes, someone who actually really did seem to seriously [00:14:00] care about climate change and trying to do concrete meaningful things to address it was Bill Gates.

But similarly to Greta Thunberg, bill Gates is slowly backing away from climate change work and shifting his attention to human rights. And he still says climate change is a serious problem, but now, and, and it is. I mean, but, but that’s just not what people said it was. He’s recently shifted from a climate disaster framing toward a focus on human welfare and adaptation and realistic expectations about emissions cuts, which is.

Perfectly logical. But for contrast in his 2021 book, how to Avoid a Climate Disaster. ‘cause he wrote a fricking book about it. This is how focused he was. Gates framed climate change as one of humanity’s biggest challenges and focused heavily on reaching net zero emissions through innovation and policy.

He emphasized that avoiding more than 1.5 to two degrees Celsius of warming required aggressive emissions cuts across electricity and manufacturing and transport and agriculture and buildings. Now this isn’t [00:15:00] 2021. This is after, in 2020, we realized just how little a cut in emissions you get from literally shutting down the entire world because of COVID-19.

So I think, you know, it’s, it’s, he really held to this for a long time. But then came the pivot in October, 2025. He published this memo and this blog post. Hey, you can look it up. It’s titled Three Tough Truths About Climate. He argues that climate strategy should focus on human welfare even more than temperatures, the greenhouse gas emissions.

And he said that too much attention has gone. To near term emissions, emissions goals and doomsday rhetoric, and not enough toward improving the lives in, in, in, in a warming world. In his, his ventures that were primarily based around climate change are now kind of like their funding and staffing is being shifted around.

So his venture initiative, breakthrough energy and related clean tech is, is getting some scaling back while he’s putting more emphasis in technologies that [00:16:00] cut emissions, but more focus on improving livelihoods. And he’s also increased overall spending on global health and anti-poverty work through his foundation.

And he is positioning climate more as just one major issue among several drivers of human suffering, with the focus really being on, on human rights. Now let’s look at states. Let’s look at New York, right? Because New York is, is an extremely for those who live outside the United States. It it’s, it’s a very progressive leftist, environmentally focused state.

And well, they, they used to be extremely, extremely committed to climate change. Another. They’re not exactly meeting their commitments. So they once aimed to nearly eliminate greenhouse gas emissions. Their goal was to do so by 2050 and get 70% of their electricity from renewables by 2030. That’s four years from now.

But they are years behind on this. And their, their government hotch, I, I, I don’t know how to pronounce her name now argues that reliability and cost need to be [00:17:00] prioritized. Because obviously they do the, she does blame surging energy demand, high utility bills, and a hostile federal administration on this.

She, she doesn’t admit that, just it’s not practical. But beyond that, several marquee policies have been delayed or softened, including regulations to implement the 2019 climate laws cap and invest program that would change major emitters and, and they would charge major emitters and fund clean energy and efficiency investments.

So her administration also postponed all anti electric new buildings law, the. Sorry. Her administration also postponed an all electric new buildings law, backed an offshore gas pipeline, previously rejected on environmental grounds and approved an extension for gas. Plant powering a Bitcoin mine I think you’ll remember like the New York was famous for, oh, they’re gonna take away your gas stoves.

So they’re walking back on all of this. And then even in the exact opposite direction, the administration is courting energy intensive [00:18:00] tech and industrial investment, including a proposed 100 billion micron memory chip complex, expected to consume as much electricity as about 1.5 million homes.

Even as the state projects electricity demand could rise up to 24% by 2040. So they’re just kind of dropping it. It’s just like,

Malcolm Collins: I, I think it’d be really fun and I could see things moving in this direction is if the right decides to try to take this issue from the left like they did with Maha. I mean, the two movements are really tiny.

Well, one

Simone Collins: of our friends who, who runs a nonprofit that has always worked with state level. Republican policy makers, like state legislators? Yeah. On climate tech. Not because it’s a progressive cause, but because there are a lot of practical, economic and logistical reasons. To invest in clean tech.

Malcolm Collins: It’s not just that, it’s that as the Republican party has undergone its re construc and association you’ve got major figures like Elon, you know, he says he wants to be a centrist or whatever now, but [00:19:00] everyone knows he, he’s a right leading individual. Right. And he’s, he cares a lot about the climate.

Like you care a lot about like, environmentalism. And I think a lot of, if you just reframe it to protecting our hunting and fishing grounds mm-hmm. If you reframe it to Oh yeah. Like the old Teddy

Simone Collins: Roosevelt conservation of like, I love nature, it’s awesome. I I wanna go shoot some animals in it and camp and have fun.

And it’s cool. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If you, if you, if you come out as you know, with a campaign of, we need to you know, do. Do protection of wildlife and protection of wildlife from contamination, I think move away from all the global warming stuff. Right. Like that, that doesn’t play to a Republican base.

Simone Collins: So, so let me hunt and stop turning the frogs gay.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I think that would appeal to, of the, the Maha base. Yeah, totally. Yeah. That would appeal to most mainstream Republicans. Yeah. And it would completely destabilize the Democrats if the Republicans were coming at it to appropriate

Simone Collins: climate activism that would be real appropriate climate activism.

Well [00:20:00] that’s, that’s actually the thing because now climate change has been made so uncool. There’s this woman actually a, a woman named Clara Chen. Or Fang surveyed 1003 self-identified climate activists and found that they’re mostly female, non-Hispanic, white, progressive, middle class, over 50 and highly educated.

So what does that mean? They’re Karens, so like now climate change has really become like the only people who now still care about it are progressive old Karens and, and Colin Wright on X wrote this, it is increasingly difficult to avoid the conclusion that such women are, are channeling the energy and protectiveness that would.

Ordinarily be directed toward child rearing into climate activism, treating Earth itself as their vulnerable child. And Joe Lonsdale, like the, the Joan Lonsdale wrote, climate activism is a religion for midwives who want to feel intellectually superior, but are not. Women tend to be more religious than men and will [00:21:00] often seek it out, out in their lives.

Proceed accordingly. And then in response to that sentimental robotics, another user on X pointed out just did some napkin math, not according to not, not accounting for loss productivity. We could be looking at 12 to 15 trillion in capital expenditure for climate efforts since 2000. Imagine how much we could have done with those funds.

Not saying environmentalism is important, but obviously improving air quality, et cetera, is good. But for 15 trillion, I feel seriously ripped off.

Malcolm Collins: So Simone, who is Joe Long? You said the Joe who, who is this?

Simone Collins: Joe of? Of like the Trump administration, the famous investor, the, the. I mean, like,

Malcolm Collins: okay. Somebody tied to the Trump.

He’s, yeah. He’s a, he’s

Simone Collins: an, he’s a very famous philanthropist and entrepreneur and investor. He founded Palantir. Okay. That guy that’s, he’s with UT Austin, founded Palantir.

Malcolm Collins: That’s easy. That’s easy. Okay. So the, the few points I wanna make here before you go further Uhhuh one is, is that I think a big reason climate change has dropped off, as you say, it’s a bunch of old women [00:22:00] now.

Yeah. Is a lot of young men pretended to care about the climate because hot young women cared about the climate. Yeah. Not anymore. They’re old now. Hot young women. You, you were one of them back, back in the day. I’m old now. I’m a hag. You’re hag maxing now. I’m ha I’m a

Simone Collins: hag mixer. Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yes. Nobody, but I’m

Simone Collins: caring for a child now, not the climate.

You see it

Malcolm Collins: Actually, I, I even asked online just because, you know, we, we’ve got a high enough profile now. I was like, is there any like, quotes or tweets of like, people thirsting after Simone couldn’t find any. Right, because I’m a

Simone Collins: hag. I could let it, let it be. And remember wearing my hide scarf, it’s perfect.

My little hide gloves. Look. What? What? Look at this. Look. Look at this. Look. What am I I’m Whistler’s mother. Exactly, exactly. So with glasses with my asses,

Malcolm Collins: The

Simone Collins: point, by the way, people are so stupid, and I cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen this. People appear to believe that rim width is an indication of prescription strength.

Malcolm Collins: I, I know this as well. I’ve seen this as well. They’re [00:23:00] very dumb. But they think it, I don’t, I don’t even need

Simone Collins: glasses. I don’t. I wear them because it makes people think you’re smarter

Malcolm Collins: anyway, Simone? I think that this is hugely, like, as these women get older and more undesirable, they’re screeching at society is going to become increasingly more disgusted by the general public.

I think there was a great, I mean, well, I think

Simone Collins: they’re, they’re, they may be playing a non-trivial role in the the 25 20 25 dropping climate change like it’s hot thing.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Well, and I, well, the degree to which they do not control the narrative anymore is really strong. The one thing that got me recently is if you look at the last I was looking at it, it had been published for like four days.

And it was the Paramount Plus on YouTube for free, the new Star Trek thing.

Oh, right. And after four days of being live four free on YouTube, it was like at 130,000 views. Mm-hmm. Which is less views than we get in a normal, well, they even

Simone Collins: [00:24:00] advertised it. Didn’t you see that there was even a, a. An advertisement for, yeah, it was an app.

It’s not like it was just put on because I thought, well, okay, well they must have just published it. No one knew to even look for it. And the algo’s really weird now, so give them credit. But no, they paid for about it. This is a multimillion

Malcolm Collins: dollar production was

Simone Collins: major stars in

Malcolm Collins: it,

Simone Collins: right? Like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. But just nobody cares about what the left

Simone Collins: mainstream media is.

Zombified, they’re working like it’s 1990 and they don’t realize that the, the fundamental economics have completely changed. The media landscape has completely evolved. They, they’re just gonna run outta money and die. But they are, they’re dead men walking. That is it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah, it is completely. Whenever we deal with them, I’m always just like, this is stupid.

Extremely frustrated. Yeah. This is so stupid. And we, we do more work with the mainstream media than we cannot talk about because of NDAs and stuff like that. Another thing about mainstream media talk about running a movement is there was the recent thing where Nick, the guy who exposed the Somalian fraud, did an interview as a YouTuber.

And then the YouTuber tried to cut him it so that it made him look like [00:25:00] he said a bunch of stuff he didn’t say. And Nick had filmed it all with his phone. I don’t know if he had done that secretly or whatever. And so it came out that the YouTuber was fraudulently manipulating the tapes and it made him look really bad.

But what, what Nick Shirley is who you’re talking about, Nick. Shirley, yeah. Is that we’ve had to do that while without being able to film our own stuff without li like legally I couldn’t, even if I had filmed what happened during that viral interview, I couldn’t even share that with you. And what’s even crazier about the viral interview, the piece that that was attached to was supposed to go live in December, and it has not gone live yet.

And we haven’t heard anything from the team yet. So we think they may have just dropped it rather than put in a disclaimer that their own person was wrong. Like, I don’t know, like what they were gonna do after. Like, they, they seem to not be aware that like we might do a longer episode trying to dive into what, what happened with that.

But just to cancel an entire filmed project out of embarrassment is

Simone Collins: Yeah. Surprising me because from what we can [00:26:00] tell when journalists. Have run pieces on us, they tend to do really, really well.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we just had a piece go viral in Germany.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They, they, they perform quite well and that makes us happy because we don’t want people to travel all the way from Germany or France or wherever.

Even just if it’s just New York or DC to spend a day or two at our place and get a hotel and everything and have it not yield an ROI, so we, we are sensitive to that. It it is, yeah. So it, it, it surprises me that they invested in sending people out and then ultimately didn’t run anything. But,

Malcolm Collins: but I mean, what, even, even

Simone Collins: if they just make it a fully, you know, fair and, and non sensationalized, non hit piece coverage of demographic labs.

‘cause they have plenty of footage of us just talking about the issue in a didactic manner, which was our point in the first place. If we don’t ask people to do hit pieces on us and we, we encourage them to make them interesting, but we, we, you can just use us for responsible news coverage and many people do.

[00:27:00] Anyway, let’s, let’s move forward though, because I think that the bigger, the bigger question that we need to be asking ourselves moving forward about panics is, Hey, you know what, when should I actually be changing my life and behavior? When should I be donating to a nonprofit about this? When should I be caring and when can I reliably understand that one, this may not actually be a real problem or as urgent as it is, or two, this will probably self-correct, or, or market market factors will self-correct this.

It will be priced in and people will come in and innovate a solution in time. So I wanna, I wanna share some unjustified panics, and there are really two types of unjustified panics, which is either the problem is not real, or not as imminently urgent as it is, or. The, the problem is a self-correcting one through market dynamics or just through like natural self-correction.

So obviously as we’ve just been talking about, environmental doomsdays are just one of those, the problem is just not as urgent as people say it is. What I didn’t realize, ‘cause I feel like [00:28:00] we’ve kind of been. Gaslit about this repeatedly is how many times people have said we have like five years left.

It’s all about to end and then nothing happens. So this even goes back to, and I’m sure it goes back earlier, but there was this Earth Day end of civilization prediction series in the 1970s where around the first Earth Day public figures and some scientists warned of looming environmental collapse within a few decades, including claims that cities like New York would literally be underwater.

And yes, we’ve had like hurricanes where there’s been flooding, but they meant actually permanently durably underwater and, and that the world would face unavoidable global famine and resource exhaustion by the end of the century. And then also media reports in the seventies based on some scientific papers warned of an impending ice age.

Ice age. And this was right before this like series in the nineties where everyone was talking about global warming instead. But they said that aerosol pollution and natural cycles would cause an ice age. And they predicted, of course, again, [00:29:00] famines and societal collapse. Like literally Time Magazine, which used to be big for those who were babies.

And, and Newsweek, which is one of the really big publication, amplified this as this consensus view like, oh, everyone knows the world’s gonna end and it never did. And even, even though the scientific community was divided on this, and then the, the trends do shifted toward, oh, it’s global warming instead, nevermind.

But every time this happens, they kind of just bury the, well, we were wrong part of this and just switch to a new form of apocalyptic system. Yeah. And, and well, it’s absolutely true that environmental problems like pollution and biodiversity are, are serious. Loss of biodiversity. The, the actual imminent collapse scenarios just haven’t played out.

Even in the, the eighties and two thousands. So after the seventies, there were all these short-term climate apocalypses, some high hope, high profile statements, forecast that entire nations would be wiped out by sealable rise around the year 2000, or that the [00:30:00] Arctic would be ice free by the summer of, or the early 2010s.

That just didn’t happen. But I totally remember, don’t you remember? Oh, the pool of rice cops are melting. Well, there’s a

Malcolm Collins: famous one where Greta Thornberg predicted, and this was like 15 years ago, that in five years the world was going to be flooded. No, just like this

Simone Collins: number of times that they’ve done this and then it’s just all like, well, I dunno.

Like they just keep going after. But this makes sense to me when I think, you know, in the context of I, you know, I worked for Earth Day Network, the people who started Earth Day and started one of the earlier panics. You know, that there is a. Because a lot of these organizations raised a lot of money in the world of academia as, as was alluded to in those earlier tweets I read off.

And, and as, as you know, the earth data raised a lot of money. Then you have these sprawling nonprofit and academic organizations who have a lot of money and have a very vested interest in not being shut down when it turns out the world actually isn’t ending. So they have to build a new panic. They have to, they would either have [00:31:00] to find a new cause or they would have to find some new way to justify fundraising so that they don’t lose their jobs.

And so I think part of why climate change just kept sticking around was for a very long time, people were able to just kind of keep the delusion going. But let’s move on from climate change. We talked about. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I, I wanna talk a little bit. So I think that what we are, we’re seeing, and it is very interesting, is climate change as a movement.

If you contrast it with Greta Thornberg’s current movements, for example, right? Mm-hmm. And where the left seems to be going more Yeah. Is, is structured quite differently. Climate change is an apocalyptic assist movement, right? Like it is, yes, fix this or else civilization falls apart, right? Mm-hmm. To drop an apocalyptic movement is, from a historic perspective, pretty rare.

Yeah. True. Even when religions that are apocalyptic the predictions don’t come true, people involved in them they often end up, just doubling down, right? Like it’s

Simone Collins: a sort of hope springs eternal thing, but [00:32:00] just apocalyptic springs eternal. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And the, the and it’s, and it’s so interesting ‘cause I think right now the movement that’s growing, that it’s structurally closest to the old climate change movement is the prenatal movement, right?

Like in the same way that a climate change advocate might get excited when they see the numbers being down again. Mm-hmm. I get excited because I’m like, ah, I made a good bet. My predictions are right. Yeah. The numbers are down yet again. But the point here being is that they’ve moved from an apocalyptic movement to a movement that is much more, it’s fundamentally

Simone Collins: revolutionary.

It’s about upending the social order.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It’s a, it’s about yes, upending the so revolutionary and religious Hmm. It is a structure of basically metaphysical beliefs around how the world works. Yeah. We go a lot more in detail in it in our video on Zhan Mond because I think he’s a very good explanation of this study of anti, well,

Simone Collins: yeah.

It’s when we first became aware of anti-colonialism as a concept, ‘cause we just hadn’t really. It recognized that it was an organized philosophy?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I [00:33:00] couldn’t conceive of how the philosophy of anti-colonialism could view the Jews, the, the native population of Israel as the colonizers. And if people are like, well, they came there from Moses this time, we know that the population was 50% at least the original population.

So the, the, the native population after being. Removed by an empire could be seen as colonizer by coming back to their original land. Right. They would post something like a, a, a, a meme of like Mount Rushmore losers

Simone Collins: weepers. It’s,

Malcolm Collins: this is a, a sacred monument, and you could post something like the Temple of the Rock on top of you know, the, the, the pure temple.

And it’s exactly the same defacing. And yet they would, it would offer no. And so I didn’t understand that until I took time to understand colonialist theory and how the groups aren’t divided was in colonialist theory. Mm-hmm. And colonialist theory does not really bear much concern for historic realities.

Mm-hmm. [00:34:00] It’s a religious framework. And I think that part of the community that previously within this apocalyptic movement has gone down this new religious. Pathway. And then the other part of the movement, the bill Gates of the movement, right? Mm-hmm. They’ve moved in the pathway that a lot of the traditionalist EAs started to move.

You know, even they used to care about the climate and they don’t care so much anymore. And they, they’ve gone down the pathway of well, I want to like reduce the most in the moment suffering. I mean, if you point out that this is going to lead to, and I think that this is where hard ea slash the sort of prenatal ideological agenda really contrasts with the agenda that, that these people had, right?

Yeah. And I think it’s been laid very bare which is our plan. Is to attempt to use our resources, voices, power lives, to build the structure that future human civilization will be able to, to launch from. Like everything [00:35:00] that I do, I’m, I’m generally unconcerned with the life or suffering of any live human today because there’s going to be so many humans in the future if we do things right that I have a duty to plan long term for human civilization.

And you see this with actors like Elon, like that’s clearly Elon’s goal as well, right? Like, his actions are not meant to leave in the moment suffering, you know, after he left. Yeah. It’s, it’s a

Simone Collins: focus on long-term human flourishing. Long-term

Malcolm Collins: human flourishing. If you look at Bill Gates’s actions, it is, it’s immediate

Simone Collins: negative utilitarianism.

Malcolm Collins: And I, and I’d say selfishly even about reducing in the moment suffering. And I think that’s. One of the core thing that divides the intellectual left and right. Right now, I think that that’s the core question that divides which side you are on. As an intellectual, is your core goal long-term human fl flourishing, or is it suffering reduction?

Yeah, if it’s long term human flourishing, you are a rightist. If it’s suffering reduction, you’re a leftist. Yeah, I

Simone Collins: mean, especially when you combine that with [00:36:00] how you define self, like is, is your point of identification of, or, or optimization around those furthest from you culturally and familiarly?

Or is it focused more inwardly in the circle?

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, no, no. The point I was making, it was sort of an inversion of that point. I, it just wasn’t connected, not inversion. That’s not exactly what I mean. The point I’m trying to make here is that the left right now has an intellectual cast, bill Gates, the soft effective altruist that those, those communities as opposed to hard ea.org, which we have.

So the soft effective altruist in the bill in the Bill Gates class they are not bought into the religion that the, the masses and the influencer class believes. The the Hassans and the Greta Thornberg’s and many of the foot soldiers of the left, the ones who are at these protests and everything like that.

What they believe is more like. A, a very poorly thought through religious framework. But it is one that they believe without logic and uncritical, a lot of

Simone Collins: [00:37:00] it’s just based on of avoidant behavior and avoiding discomfort and, and focusing on it in immediate optics that, that make you look good. And when you popularity points, I think,

Malcolm Collins: right?

But, but this, but in the right we have a, a, a mirroring structure, right? You have the intellectual cast who will intellectually engage with cross-cultural religious anthropology and topics and stuff like that. But you also have the religious foot soldiers who are just foot soldiers. They’re just operating off of a metaphysical framework that they have not deeply engaged with.

And I think it’s important to recognize that and see how these two factions are changing in both the left and the right.

Simone Collins: Sure. But let’s move on. Other, other forms of panic that I think very, and I mentioned this already consistently, don’t bear out. Ironically, our social panics. Just to give you a couple that have taken place in America in the last 20 years, there have been several musical panics like through, throughout the last a hundred or so years.

People have [00:38:00] freaked out collectively around jazz and then rock and roll, and then rap and hip hop. Like this is the end. It’s gonna, it’s gonna cause everyone to go crazy and become people. I think it maybe, did I genuinely, no, I think, I think it’s, I think it’s a symptom, not a cause. Okay. And, and then I, there was a 1950s comic panic.

Did you know about this? I didn’t know about this. Yeah, I’ve heard of it vaguely, but tell me more. Comic books were accused of causing juvenile delinquency and moral decay, and it literal really led to, to

Malcolm Collins: video game panic to

Simone Collins: Senate hearings and the comics code authority. Like, there, there was actual like, legislation and, and major action to control the story

Malcolm Collins: that the, the feminist frequency of that generation.

Simone Collins: I,

Malcolm Collins: I think, I

Simone Collins: kind of think so. And then there’s the famous Satanic panic where, you know, just people thought that there were all these, these groups sacrificing children and stuff. I feel like it was kind of an early qan on kind of thing. There’s a really great podcast called American Hysteria that I think maybe earlier she did, the host of that did a, [00:39:00] a podcast on the Satanic panic.

But if you wanna just hear about. Various things that people had moral panics about. Definitely check out the podcast. American Hysteria. I love it. She is still delightful. Very, very leftist, but I, most of the podcasts I listen to are super leftist. But you just

Malcolm Collins: listened to far leftists your entire, I love

Simone Collins: listening to Far Leftists.

Yes. Then there was the, yes. As you alluded to the, the panic around violence and video games, which totally, like a lot of researchers looked into this, tried to see a correlation between playing violent video games and expressing violent behavior. And there just wasn’t one that wasn’t born out at all.

And then there were two red scares. There was one from 1919 to 1920. We need

Malcolm Collins: another red scare, by the way.

Simone Collins: And then I, well, that’s the thing. It’s so funny. And then the, the forties and fifties and what people believed at these times, at these times, and this is when it actually wasn’t born out, was it?

Communists had. Infiltrated every, nearly every organization. And they hadn’t at that time, and now they actually have, I know, it’s just so ironic. I’m like, no one bets an [00:40:00] eye. You know, where, where’s a red scare when you need one? And what I think is so funny is there were all these moral panics. And throughout the 20th century, as these moral panics played out, people were increasingly losing their religion.

Only sort of going through the motions of their religious affiliation and, and cascading into soft. And then super soft religion as you define it, in the pragma guided crafting religion, which is basically just not really following the rules anymore, not really making any hard sacrifices in favor of your religion.

And this led to genuine moral decay. This led to genuinely people becoming less disciplined, having less inhibitory control, having more mental health problems not, not getting married, not not successfully building careers and lives and savings. And now we’ve ended up where we are. It’s not good. And there, but yet there’s been no moral panic about that, which I think is very interesting.

But then let’s talk about, let’s talk about examples of, of problems that have been resolved by market forces. And I already talked about peak oil, but you had the, the multiple sort of either population [00:41:00] or, or fmic based predictions. So, or in the 19th and 20th century you had this, this Malthusian both, like the Thomas mouth is driven and then the Neil Malthusian predictions that population growth would cause huge famines and mass starvation, but instead, instead, which there was reason

Malcolm Collins: to believe back then.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it was, it was, yeah, because in the past it absolutely happened. And when populations grew too much, then there would be some kind of massive famine. But in this case, because a lot of this happened right around the industrial revolution and huge technological breakthroughs, you had agricultural productivity just expand dramatically.

I think they call it the green Revolution. Right. And. Nobody knows. Basically everyone was okay. And then you still though a, again, in the 1970s had Paul Ehrlich published the population bomb, and he predicted that literally hundreds of millions of people would starve in the seventies regardless of policy.

And that global death rates would climb sharply. And the countries like India were essentially beyond hope. Like it’s too [00:42:00] late, it’s all over now. And, and yet instead basically ev everything was fine. And just there, there was, there was no like desperate rationing and, and, and, and huge death.

And when there were famines, they were mostly driven by war and policy, not by planetary carrying capacity, which was the argument that he made. I think also arguably COVID-19 was one of those sort of would’ve resolved on its own kind of panic panics like they. When you look at excess mortality in various countries,

Malcolm Collins: the countries that implemented, we’ve done another episode on this.

It implemented more restrictions had generally speaking, and this is also true of states, the more restrictions an American state implemented, the higher its death rate was. The states that implemented the least number of restrictions had the lowest death rates. Yeah. So I think

Simone Collins: it, you know, that’s, it’s a really great example of a really serious panic that like probably did more damage than good.

But I also wanna point out that there are absolutely clearly did more damage, justified, justified panics. Oh yeah. Also, we, we have to also [00:43:00] think about the, the fact that the COVID-19 moral panic and in general panic caused people to completely so many people lose complete faith in the media in their governments.

Like you, you have so many knock on problems from what happened. But there were absolutely even environmental panics. That were totally justified and cause people to freak out and then solve the problem. Can you think of one that’s environmental?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The other layer.

Simone Collins: Yeah, exactly. In the 19, oh, do I know my, do I know my environmentalism?

Yeah, you do. But yeah. So in the eighties, scientists realized, oh my gosh, there’s massive seasonal thinning in, in the atmospheric ozone layer over Antarctica. And that it was linked to chlorofluorocarbons CFCs. ‘cause no one can pronounce that. I’m pretty

Malcolm Collins: sure they made that word up. That’s not real.

Yeah, it’s news. Think, I don’t know. The ozone layer is real. I’m gonna be honest here.

Simone Collins: But basically it, they realized it was a big problem. Oh my God, we’re all gonna [00:44:00] get skin cancer. And then they, they, they, they created the, the 1987 Montreal Protocol and it had various amendments that required a phase down.

And then near elimination of almost 100 ozone depleting substances, including most CFCs and halons. And they achieved basically. Almost total, I mean, 98 point to 99% reduction in their production and, and, and consumption within compared to their peak levels. And now the ozone layer is on track to recover to pre 1980 levels by the end of the century, which is really cool.

Like we, we solved that problem, I think arguably also lead and gasoline. It was like, oh my gosh, like this is causing people

gasoline to go

dumb. And then we’re like, well, let’s take out the lead. And so we did and that’s great. I think the fears of nuclear war, though elements of it were overblown.

For example, a lot of people are like, well, if there’s some kind of nuclear attack, it’s gonna cause a nuclear winter and we’re all gonna die. When, like, then later when you look more [00:45:00] closely and you, you model a little bit better, it would cause more localized issues, but not like a total worldwide nuclear winter in most cases.

But still, I think it was justified panic when people. Realized that countries were kind of, they had their fingers over the nuclear buttons and like, Hey, maybe we shouldn’t just, maybe this shouldn’t be the way we communicate. And that, that caused a, a lot of, I think, international social norms that turned countries a against nuclear as the go-to war.

Thing of choice. Another one that, that was actually pretty justified, even though to most people who even lived through it, including you and me ‘cause we’re old, is Y 2K. Oh yeah. Y was a, there was for, for those who are not aware, in the year 2000 people predicted that computers would, would fail at midnight on January 1st, 2000 due to this, this date programming issue with, with how computers were originally designed.

They just didn’t put in in enough numbers. Why did

Malcolm Collins: they felt so big when it was happening? It felt like COVID.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. No, people were [00:46:00] like, they were, they were creating bunkers full of food and they thought planes were gonna fall outta the sky. And this was because legacy systems stored years at two digits.

Meaning that the, the mini computer systems would misinterpret 2000 as 1900, and that would break functions involving a lot of comparisons and interest calculations and expirations and scheduling. And literally billions of dollars were spent on fixes. And some people like built bunkers and stockpiled supplies.

So people thought that 300 to $600 billion were spent on, on, basically, I guess, weatherizing us for, for the, the year change. Oh, Y 2K uhhuh. Which is lot. But however, however, in for comparison a major synthesis by the Climate Policy Initiative estimates that cumulative global climate, climate finance of about 4.8 trillion US dollars between 2011 and 2020.

So, you know, that’s the, you know, Y 2K was nothing in comparison and even [00:47:00] updated data shows that about 850 to 900, 140 trillion sorry, billion USD in 2021 which was, that was about like 1.3 trillion per year. So anyway, like it was peanuts compared to what we spend on the environment. Yeah.

But. It was actually a real risk, and it wasn’t something that was gonna cause planes to fall out of the sky. It wouldn’t have caused people to not be able to get food. But basically banking and power and telecom and air traffic and, and many key government systems like social security payments would have actually not worked.

So it would have caused real disruption. And we did actually need to like, oh, this is a problem we need to fix. Like, it was justified. I’m saying it was justified. It was money well spent. I’m glad that we did it because

Malcolm Collins: Inconvenience.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean because it, it would’ve sucked. Okay. A lot of people would’ve gone without their social security payments and then had trouble getting food.

And I mean, a lot of people’s, I mean, people, [00:48:00] maybe their entire savings could have been wiped out by, by market crashes related to the stock market, just total, totally going out of control. Like a lot of really bad things could have happened. So it is very, very good that we panicked about that and took action.

So, so you’re a Y 2K,

Malcolm Collins: you were pro Y 2K. You are and pro that is Right. Saying the Y two panic was justified. Yeah. Or at least more so than environmental damage, right? Yeah. But, and

Simone Collins: so I think these, these are the common characteristics of justified. Panics, which is, I think the biggest thing is they’re not priced in.

I think when something’s priced in, like, oh we’re gonna run out of oil, oil gets more expensive. Okay, well then the market responds by finding more efficient ways.

Malcolm Collins: Oil isn’t priced in, like eventually, you know,

Simone Collins: like it kind of is like, oh, we can’t live in this place anymore, so we move away. And then like, you know, we have to figure this out.

Or like, you know, peak oil or like, oh, like we, you know,

Malcolm Collins: what do you mean? Like, humanity eventually just finds a new way of, I mean, I, I,

Simone Collins: yeah. Listen, I mean like [00:49:00] when, when people settled, like when, when English colon colonists settled in New England, there was like a mini ice age going on. It was super cold here.

But that we’ve dealt with climate change throughout human history. We, we adapt, I think it’s one of those things that you slowly adapt to. And climate change was overwrought because they. They said it was a lot more urgent, essentially than it was. We basically have more time to adapt to that. So yeah, I think when you, when you make it a apocalyptic, it is unfounded when you’re like, oh, there’s this urgent thing we need to handle right now, and there’s a very clear reason why at this point it’s going to happen.

Like why 2K? It was clear. We knew we had a clear deadline. We knew exactly why it was clear like that. But when it’s more like, oh, my thingy, my, my equation says like that, that that typically correlates with it not playing out

Malcolm Collins: prenatal to you. Like how do you, what’s your takeaway with how we should be signaling tism, it’s tism gonna become the next big movement?

Like how do we, how do we handle that?

Simone Collins: I [00:50:00] think that it’s, it’s not, we shouldn’t be framing it as this, like, this year it’s all gonna fall apart. I think very similarly to, it’s, it’s kind of like this combination of, of climate change and Y 2K of like, well. The writing’s on the wall, like the way many countries social services are set up requires this thing that is going to not be the case anymore.

And so we have to change it like the, the numbers will change and the equation will break. It is very simple logic. There’s nothing that’s gonna change the fact that that’s going to happen, but we, we do have time to adapt. And I think that’s why it’s important for us to talk about this. But we shouldn’t make it this immediate panic because it’s not, it’s something we can plan for.

And as you point out many, many times. Like endlessly. It’s not gonna cha, we’re not gonna ch start increasing our, our output of humans. Like the, the birth rate’s not gonna go up [00:51:00] suddenly. We more have to just adapt the systems. We have to, we have to analogously build the computer systems that can deal with the year 2000.

That’s, well this is

Malcolm Collins: why my framing of, of TISM is our job is to replace it. The existing population. Right. Like when you change it to, from the, from the framing of like, this is cataclysmic. Think about society. I, I do point that out. I’m like, why don’t you care given how cataclysmic this is when I’m talking to reporters.

But like the goal of the movement is not to prevent the cataclysm, it’s to replace the population today, which is kind of priced in. I mean, one of the things Yeah, I was talking to Simone about is you know, how easy our kids are going to have it dominating the future of human society. Mm-hmm. If you look at like, 40% of kids in fourth grade can’t read now, right?

Like, yeah. One, the education system is failing because people are being idiots and still sending their kids to school. Well,

Simone Collins: and then like the, the upper middle class parents of students who are still giving their kids a decent education, are still their kids what was the word? Like cutting their knees.

Something like that.

Malcolm Collins: What [00:52:00] is that? No, they’re not letting their kids play rough and trouble. They’re not letting their kids well,

Simone Collins: but more importantly, they’re not allowing their kids to learn how to use AI or be on the internet or be really good with tech. Terrible to do. Yeah. So like, that’s you, you also don’t wanna undercut your kids by, by disempowering them in a tech enabled age.

Like you have to find a middle ground. So yeah, I feel like we have a major strategic advantage to that. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But then, then on top of all of that, even genetically speaking, smart people are just not having kids much anymore. And in terms of getting into positions, there’s going to be so few young people as our kids are growing up.

I mean, consider like getting into Harvard, right? Like that, that, that was as hard as it could have ever been. Like when I got into Stanford or she got into Cambridge the years that we got into our generation, because that was that giant generation when not only was the generation larger than any generation before it but it was a generation.

That was also more focused on getting into college than any generation before it. Yes. Now, like people don’t wanna go to college at high rates anymore. And the, the number of, of people who even could apply is smaller. [00:53:00] So for them, getting into these top schools, getting into top positions is just gonna be dramatically easier unless AI changes everything and like no human has a job.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So speaking about ai, actually just in like, okay, like last five minutes ‘cause I have to go get the kids. There are current panics. I think some are justified, like I alluded to earlier, water shortages, that that is an actual thing that like people kind of need to figure out sooner rather than later.

Because Mexico City’s about to run out of water. Johannesburg is about to run out of water. Cape Town is about to run out of water. Major Indian mega cities like Delhi and Bangal, and she Chennai, Mumbai and Calta are all about to run outta water as are a bunch of other places, including Sao Paulo and Beijing and Cairo and Jakarta and Istanbul in Mexico City and, and, and London and Tokyo and Miami.

They’re, they’re all in and not a very good position. So I think that’s one demographic labs we talked about. What about where, where do you stand with AI apocalyptic system? Because it’s not. It doesn’t really fit neatly into any of my criteria. Like, it’s not necessarily a [00:54:00] social panic, but it is kind of a social panic.

It’s not, it should be, it

Malcolm Collins: should be treated as more of a social panic. The EI Bukowski, the murder bots are gonna kill us all is unfounded, stupid. You can watch our videos on why we think it’s stupid. But the, the AI will completely disrupt the way society and the economy work. It’s true. It’s something we need to be paying attention on to.

Yeah. That, that a lot of people will be out of the job in the short term, is something we need to pay attention to. Yeah. And how we work with AI instead of making ourselves a threat to AI by these JI hottest you know, we need to, to find. You can look at our sense of man series on this, where we talk about how you can build this durable alliance.

We’ll do a track on it eventually where I go deeper into it. But the wider thing I wanna talk to you about AI here is I think it’s something that people get wrong and it’s one of those really, like dumb takes you here all the time on the internet.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Is the reason why the billionaire class stopped caring about climate change is because now they’re all invested in ai.

And AI runs counter to climate change. A lot of people like [00:55:00] Bill Elon for example, he was pro climate and procr at the same time. Right. Like Bitcoin crypto explicitly. Right. Like, they don’t care that there causes conflict with each other. That’s not why they left climate change. I, I don’t even think it’s tangentially related to why they stopped caring about climate change.

I just think that the, the climate movement lost its steam. Yeah, mostly through hyperbolic freakouts. Where I think with the prenatals movement, we’ve done a very good job of localizing our hyperbolic freakouts so that we will see these collapses in places like Korea and be able to point and say, look, I told you so, in a way that is gonna be hard for other people to miss.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I think people need to look at, at the, the way, the way how I’ve moderated my views is I, I need not complex [00:56:00] modeling, but just very clear brass tacks, like, this system requires X to work. X is, is not going to be a constant anymore. We cannot expect X to continue and therefore we cannot rely on the system anymore.

Like that is, that is a very clear thing with demographic elapse that I know. We just haven’t addressed and that, that we can’t address and therefore we have to prepare accordingly with ai, I really, I just don’t. I don’t, it’s, I think it’s hard to prepare because it’s such an unknown, unknown.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, when I am developing for our Feb ai, I, I literally just will ask ai, Hey what capability could I give you that would scare AI safety expert experts?

Most? That’s been my design philosophy with the Autonom agents which are mostly working now. We’ll get them to our, the reason why we haven’t released ‘em yet to like the VIP fans, which is what we were going to do is because the R Fab main site was so [00:57:00] buggy when I first thought it was safe to release that, I was just really embarrassed about that, and I never wanna make that mistake again.

I wanna do extensive testing so that even when we’re doing our initial rollout, it’s fairly bug free. But first,

Simone Collins: first, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Excited to be moving forward. Excited to have R Fab Stable. I mean,

Simone Collins: oh, Wayne in the comments if you’ve made it this far. ‘cause I, I actually do wanna. I wanna know more about people’s thoughts and what we should actually be panicking about now.

Like what, yeah, what panic is justified now. Yeah. Climate change is over.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll tell you what panic we haven’t seen yet, that I expect we will see is more a panic around young people dating ai. Oh, it’s a thing. It’s happening. It lends itself very well to like a debauchery, panic, robo sexuality ads being out there.

I can see it. I

Simone Collins: can too. I mean, I’m

Malcolm Collins: basically married to an ai like you, you’re not, and I also just

Simone Collins: feel like people kind of don’t care anymore. Like there’s this really interesting moral malaise. I don’t know. I, I, [00:58:00] I just, things have gotten so absurd now that I, I have difficulty wrapping my, do you know how

Malcolm Collins: absurd the world is?

You and I are famous in this crazy timeline, mom. Oh, well, you got, you got Octavian telling you mom, get the kids. Yeah. They might be

Simone Collins: outside now. So I gotta run. I, I love you very much. Love you too. And I will make your mango curry for dinner. Goodnight, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, what episode do you wanna run tomorrow?

Simone Collins: I don’t know your call. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: it could be either of yesterday’s episodes or either today’s episodes.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Like this one. This one’s good. We’ll run this one.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s timely. I mean, ‘cause you know, 2025 is, is now quickly disappearing in the rear of the mirror. We gotta do this while fresh people are forgetting about it already.

Oh my God. All right. Chow Chow.

Malcolm Collins: And see if you can find anything wrong with the website because we are at a stage where I think we can start advertising like tomorrow if you can.

Simone Collins: [00:59:00] Well have you put in the Google Ads yet?

You just said you did. I can’t remember yet.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. Google and Reddit ads are now working.

Simone Collins: Wonderful.

Oh, oh, nice. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

But I am lucky to death and I love, and I’m

Simone Collins: making you the mango curry tonight, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That, that would be great. Yeah. So if you’re doing the mango curry with the

Simone Collins: peppers and green onions, but cut in those slightly larger chunks, not in little circles, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And I would add some garlic and some bullock, but not the hoen.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Not hoen. Yeah. Okay. Sambo. Oh, Sambo. Like, yeah, I could see that. I could see that. I think mangoes are so disgusting. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: they’re so Well. I appreciate you cooking with them for my benefits, Simone. As long as I don’t have

Simone Collins: to cut

Malcolm Collins: it,

Simone Collins: I’m, I’m

Malcolm Collins: okay.

Because they’re slimy.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They’re the vaginas of fruit. They’re the, there’s a lot of fruits I don’t like. It’s just gross anyway. Actually probably, what’s that Really disgusting smelling one. Durian Duran’s probably. Yeah. The people think that they’re like,

Malcolm Collins: cool for liking and I’m like, Don, don’t eat.

[01:00:00] Like,

Simone Collins: no. Yeah, I’m sorry. No, that’s not, not cool. It’s Silicon Valley

Malcolm Collins: for some reason. Lots of people acted like liking durian with Did you have to deal with that too?

Simone Collins: It was a thing, yeah. I, I didn’t have to deal with it in any office, thank goodness. But I, I’m aware of it as a problem. A scourge. It

Malcolm Collins: was, it was cringe.

It

Simone Collins: was cringe. Yeah. It was very, it was very cringe. It was the, it was the Silicon Valley startup version of the person who microwaved fish in the lunchroom. You know, don’t do it. It’s not cool. Just don’t. Okay. Here we go.

Speaker: Hey. Yeah. Hey. Who wants to set up the trains? None. I, you guys are too busy fishing Me. Yeah. It looks like Octa’s gonna have to get things started, huh, buddy? Yeah, I, yeah, I’m getting, I’m getting the pieces. I, okay. Wow. I’m getting the rubber bags off of the tracks that FA wants me. Yes, please. Thank you very much.

So you want me to kick back off? [01:01:00] Absolutely. Thank you, Octavian. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2: It’s okay, buddy. You’re gonna build something. Yeah. So how, so how these fish? This, there’s a teeny tiny magnet on this part of it. Very nice design, isn’t it? Yeah. I love it.

In this raw, unfiltered episode of Based Camp, Malcolm & Simone Collins tackle a politically explosive question: Why have Muslim-majority forces historically struggled to conquer and durably hold new territory from non-Muslim groups in modern times?

Malcolm walks through centuries of examples—from the rapid early Islamic expansions to Ottoman Janissaries (often Christian-origin elites), the Yom Kippur War debacle, Cyprus 1974, East Timor, Azerbaijan-Armenia clashes, and more—arguing that success often depended on non-Muslim leadership, extreme minority rule, or unified caliphates that quickly fractured.

They explore deeper patterns:

* Coups & hierarchy: Why Muslim militaries tend toward rigid command (fear of coups) vs. decentralized Protestant/Jewish models

* Idolatry & status-signaling: Protestant anti-idolatry aversion to luxury vs. opulent signaling in some Muslim/Persian/Catholic cultures

* Delegation success: Early Islamic Golden Age thrived on minority rule + competent outsiders (Jews, Christians); later majority rule often shifted to abuse

* Birth rates, delegation, and modern “solutions” (hire outsiders? Ban excess luxury?)

Heavy on pattern-noticing, historical exceptions, biological/cultural analogies (invasive species, extremophiles), and zero sacred cows. Expect spicy takes on religion, coups, multiculturalism, and why Protestants/Jews rarely stage military coups.

Perfect for fans of contrarian history, cross-cultural analysis, pronatalism, and unapologetic anthropology.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today with a day when I had one of those very thoughts where a thought enters my mind and I begin pulling on it and I’m like. Oh no, this can only end in bad places. Oh no.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, not again,

Malcolm Collins: laughing. When we were doing a recording and I said in the recording something like, well, you know, Muslim majority armies almost never are able to conquer new territory.

And then it sort of got in my head I was like, but wait, isn’t that how Islam primarily expanded in the early days? And then Yeah. They thought they were like a

Simone Collins (2): successful warlike group or something. That’s kinda the impression an outsider gets that doesn’t know anything.

Malcolm Collins: And then I got in, well, yeah, I, I also can talk about them as like an invasive species almost in the same way that the Vikings were, they, they were an extremophile group that developed really extreme individual practices.

And when they were put on the scene around groups that didn’t have defenses against them, they were quickly conquered. Mm-hmm. And you, you often see this with extreme offa groups like the, the [00:01:00] Arab Nomads or the Vikings. Okay. You just need a force to unify them. Yeah. But I then had this second thought, which is okay.

So Malcolm, can you think of any time recently that a Muslim force? No. No. They’re, they’re pretty good as is any sort of highly dispersed group at protecting their territory. Okay. So, so once they have

Simone Collins (2): it, they keep it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We saw this in places like Afghanistan, for example. Okay. But conquering new land, I got in my head I was like, okay, surely I can think of instances in which a Muslim majority group conquered and durably kept the land of a non-Muslim majority group for let’s say over a generation.

Right?

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Give, given the reputation that we think they have. That would make sense.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And so then I just started going through in my head, like the Ottomans, no. Like they were terrible in World War I like, like practically a joke [00:02:00] player. The, the Yo Kippur War. The Yo Kippur war was hilarious, and we’ll go into it as more of an example of this wider phenomenon, but like Israel little, at that time, Israel was not like the major arms producer it is today.

It didn’t have technology. There were this fledgling little

Simone Collins (2): country.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. A fledgling little barely together country. And it looked, felt like, a group of like thugs. You know, there’s a scene, the joke scene in the movie where a group of thugs like chases some, some girl into like a back alley or follows her back there.

And then you just hear a bunch of, like, I was thinking that scene from India comes out

Simone Collins (2): where like that one guy is like dancing around with his knife and then Indiana Jones takes out a gun and shoots him.

Malcolm Collins: No, it’s way different for that. I’m, I’m talking about the scene where, because you see this in a lot of movies, a bunch of big, burly guys will like, follow somebody who looks really defenseless into a back alley to jump them.

And then somehow the, the, the girl like knocks out all of them at once.

Speaker 5: Get a load of this guy.

[00:03:00] Oh, humanity. You never failed to disappoint me, .

Unaware that with the slightest nudge, the world could crash down around me. No. For the exercise, gentlemen. I found it bracing.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, keep in mind this was a surprise war. They had more military manpower. They had higher tech, military manpower. Mm-hmm. And they had multiple countries attacking simultaneously. Yeah. And they still lost a ton of territory.

So like, how does this happen? Right. How, how, and then I started to go further because I was like, okay, surely this is just like my [00:04:00] bias and I’m not knowing all these instances of recent Muslim victories. Sure. So I go to AI and I’m like, when was the last time a Muslim force durably took land and kept it from a non-Muslim force?

Okay. Yeah. And so it goes the ottoman conquest of Egypt in 1517. Now, no, I’ll point out why this one doesn’t actually count, but we’ll go through 1517. So, the mammal salt in it nominally Sunni Muslim rulership but ruled a population that was 85 to 90% non-Muslim is. Part of the problem here. At the time Coptic, Christians, Greek and, and Jews.

So, specifically here, Egypt during this time, like even in this example, was actually ruled by Muslims already. It just had a non-Muslim majority population and it was conquered by the Ottomans. And you’ve got a problem with the Ottomans because the Ottomans do what I said that Saudi Arabia should do.

Mm-hmm. I was like. Look, Saudi Arabia, you guys [00:05:00] suck at war. This is how this came up, right? Like I was like, you guys are, are comically bad. You can’t even keep Yemen under control and it’s on your border and destitute and also Muslim. Oh dear. So, so I was like, you should just, you know, put a bunch of Christians, you know, like Protestants and Jews in charge of your troops.

Troops and you do fine. And then I had this, this thought, oh, no, no. Oh no. That’s exactly what the ottomans did. Not you, you thinking Don’t stop. No. So the Ottomans did sort of what like the UAE and the Saudis do. So if you go to the, the Muslim countries that are operating really well and very prosperous these days like Qatar in Saudi Arabia and the UAE anybody who’s been there knows that everything, or a lot of it is actually managed by well, Jews and Protestants who are imported to do finances, logistics, not

Simone Collins (2): like broadly just.

Other people.

Malcolm Collins: We’ll talk about the Catholic situation in a bit. But Catholics,

Simone Collins (2): oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: And they [00:06:00] are I imported. They’re not like, it’s, it’s a longer story there, but yes, this is, this is what’s happening. Okay, so, so if people who are familiar with Autumn in history are, are, are you familiar with the Janice series and how that whole system worked?

Simone Collins (2): Please refresh my memory.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So, right before the Ottoman started winning all these wars and expanding their territory, and this is long before the Ottoman conquest in Egypt, which we’ll get to as well. Okay. They adopted a system of taking the children of Christian families young boys and raising them as Muslims.

But if there are, as I’ve argued in the past, likely slight genetic differences between groups where you have an individual begins to adapt to like, like the religion is, like the, the code, and then you’ve got their biology that the code is running on, and the two will sort of synchronize intergenerationally, especially if you can have drift between populations, right?

An example I’ll say here is, imagine I’m living in Massachusetts and I could be a Quaker or a Puritan, [00:07:00] and I happen to hear voices. About 25% of people hear voices. Mm-hmm. I’m way more likely to become a Quaker. And now that trait is genetically concentrated in that population, right? Mm-hmm. So, even if they’re taking the, the young boys from, from Christian populations and immediately attempting to convert them you still have basically the phenomenon in the Ottoman region that you currently have in, because they did the Janis series didn’t just do the troops.

They actually like managed all troop movement, all troop deployment, the way troops operated. They managed parts of the economy. They managed parts of the infrastructure. Wait, so

Simone Collins (2): in, in, in a nutshell, are you trying to argue that Janice areas are largely, historically people of, of Christian descent?

Malcolm Collins: No, they were, they were exclusively people of Christian descent.

Oh. It wasn’t majority. That was the whole point of a Janus area. Oh,

Simone Collins (2): okay, okay, okay.

Malcolm Collins: I didn’t know. And then when did the ottomans begin to fail? Because remember this, this last big conquest here in 1517, the ottomans began to fail when the Janice series [00:08:00] became a hereditary position. And so the Janice series would intermarry with the, the Ottoman women.

Right. And they’d have kids. And then those kids would be 50%, whatever the original population was and then 25%, whatever the original population was. And then within a few generations of that, they begin to lose basically all of their wars. And I’m just saying it’s really weird that this pattern repeats itself so persistently.

But, but now note here, I’m, I’m gonna take a few other examples so the reason, by the way, I did not mention the Ottoman conquest of Serbia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, or Hungary in the 15 or 16th century is because those weren’t lasting conquest. I mean, we all know those areas to be Christian kingdoms today, right? You know, so. Okay. I didn’t really count them. But they also wouldn’t count under the ottoman definition if you’re saying, well, but they were actually led by the, the children of Christians.

Hmm. So you, you after 17 hundreds, Muslim majority states still fought wars, Ottomans versus Russia, Persians versus Afghans, et cetera, but did not gain or retain new territory from [00:09:00] non-Muslim sovereigns. And then I’ll give you two brief exceptions, but they’re not big enough to really break the pattern for me.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Turkey launched a military operation in 1974 in response to Greek junta backed coop on Cyprus. This resulted in torish forces seizing approximately 36 to 37% of the island’s territory, displacing the Greek Cy Cypher population there, a Cyprus at the time, and still had a Christian majority population overall with Orthodox Greeks forming the majority.

Turkey maintained effective control over this area for 51 years. As of 2026. And so that, that kind of counts, but it’s such a small scale thing. I don’t really consider it. And then the second here is in Indonesia’s 1975 invasion and annexation of East to more a Christian majority territory under per Portuguese influence.

But it only lasted about 24 years before independence. And then there was also a recent attack by Azerbaijan of they took a small amount of territory from the

[00:10:00] Armenians.

Malcolm Collins: , I wanna say. But again, Azerbaijan

Simone Collins (2): is an underrated country name. It’s good. It’s got bounce, you know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But anyway, so now, now we’re gonna ask the second question here. Okay. So if we’re gonna say, okay we can’t count Ottoman victories when they had the Janice series running their troops. Alright. So, right, because they’re

Simone Collins (2): basically just. Rebranding. It’s, it’s like a, a Kirkland brand or like generic store brand, except, you know that it was made at the same factory as like Doritos, and so you No, you can’t because it’s literally the same basic product.

Yeah. Rebranded. I get what you’re saying there. Yeah. But,

Malcolm Collins: but it’s not just that, it would be like saying that, you know, wow, Saudis are really good at managing their finances, and it’s like, no, their, their Jewish financial managers are really good at running their finances. Like, or in Saudi Arabia’s case’s, probably not Jewish.

I, I would guess that they’re probably more just Christian. Oh, because they, they, I, my memory’s

Simone Collins (2): so [00:11:00] bad. But isn’t it a Japanese man like that? This, like, so isn’t SoftBank managing a lot of Saudi money?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, it might be Japanese to no difference. Okay. I should have said Japanese in there as well. I, I

Simone Collins (2): can’t remember.

Hold on, let me ask. I, I, because this, this,

Malcolm Collins: but, okay. So we’re gonna ask the next offensive question here, right? So you don’t, you don’t include the ottomans.

Simone Collins (2): What Middle Eastern Nations funds does SoftBank manage?

SoftBank through its SoftBank Vision Fund Fund manages the capital wealth committed by sovereign wealth funds from middle Eastern nations. That’s Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund is the largest backer backer of Vision Fund one committing up to $45 billion.

United Arab Emirates. Also committed 15 billion to the vision fund one. Okay. So it’s, it’s not just Saudi Arabia, it’s also the uae. It’s for the

Malcolm Collins: Japanese could help with a large part of their investment. Sorry,

Simone Collins (2): Japanese. They get it done.

Malcolm Collins: They’re great. Love ‘em. [00:12:00] So you don’t include the Ottomans. Right. Okay.

The last clear case of a a, a durable win where they, they ended up holding the territories permanently holding the territory. Okay. Is the Moogle conquest of India back in 1526. Oh. Conquered from the Hindu ruled Deli sate successor regimes. It was held for 230 years.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Well, okay, so then you’ve gotta ask, okay, I mean, the 15 hundreds, it’s like yesterday.

Simone Collins (2): You know, I, I’m wearing like 1500 inspired stays under all this, you know,

Malcolm Collins: it’s still fresh. Here are some other close ones. But they said they, they don’t exactly fit. So you have the SDI Persia versus Christian caucuses, 15 hundreds to 16 hundreds where they conquered Georgia Armenia and deported many populations.

But control was contested constantly with the Ottomans in Russia. And they relied heavily with the, on the Armenians for trade administration. E even in the regions they conquered. [00:13:00] Mm-hmm. The Moroccan conquest in West Africa, you have the Moroccan Conquest of Sangai A, but that was a Muslim empire.

So not non-Muslim states. Then you have the Sokoto Cate expansion, 1800 to 1900. Okay. This was a Muslim conquest, but it was predominantly inside a Muslim region. And, and you actually see this with Muslim countries. If you go back, they do fight and win a lot, but it’s usually against other Muslims. And you could go back here and be like, oh, aren’t there some Muslim countries? Like in East Asia, we can I tell you the funniest thing? Yeah, there are. There’s Indonesia and Malaysia. Do you know the only country either of those countries has ever attempted to invade and take over?

Simone Collins (2): No.

Malcolm Collins: Each other? God, Indonesia tried to take over Malaysia through like a series of gorilla campaigns at 1.0

Simone Collins (2): for the love.

Malcolm Collins: But we’re, but it, this should, as we, as we go back here, this should begin to like unroll the, the joke that I’m gonna use in this. Is that the Muslims remind me of the Roan ship

Speaker: . Why do we always get cleanup [00:14:00] duty when they’ve tortured a re? They leave behind the biggest mess.

Speaker 3: Sub command of rec takes pleasure and arm misery. Hopefully he doesn’t get too comfortable for soon. My plans will come to fruition and his life will be disrupted.

Speaker: You are betraying sub command of Rick.

That is a pity because I am already betraying him and my plans will come to fruition first. Oh,

Speaker 3: please don’t make me scoff. Your plans are barely even schemes.

Speaker: You wouldn’t know a scheme from a conspiracy.

Malcolm Collins: From deep from star trek’s lower decks.

Speaker: Assassination plots against me are one thing, but sabotage. Is this your doing, ma? Luck? How dare you? Of course I crave your demise. But not like silence. I’ve been stabbing commanders in the back since before your mother killed her first traitor.

Malcolm Collins: you know, like constantly backstabbing each other.

Simone Collins (2): I mean, what, like, Christians and Protestants don’t do that.

Malcolm Collins: They don’t [00:15:00] actually and we’re gonna go over this.

No. And it’s, no sorry. Christians. Catholics do. Protestants largely don’t. So we’re going to go over at the end of this, which will basically be, I’m gonna give you guys the secret right now. It’s how many times in all of their collective history have every one of these individual religious cultures had a coup?

Oh, which Protestants, there have only been. Really two cos in all of history. And both of them were military coups where the military took over country from an autocratic ruler and either gave it to, or tried to give it to an elected body. Whereas if you look at Muslim countries, they basically have a coup every other year.

And because of that, you cannot put competent people in control of the military. Catholics have coups about once a gener, well, once every couple generations. Oh my gosh. They’re like way more likely to have coups. You have like, think about Latin America, [00:16:00] like coups all the time, right? Like, the weird thing is like when Protestants do revolutions, they do not do military coups.

So consider like the United States Revolution, right? We didn’t like take over the local military troops like the local commands and say, okay, now there are troops. We raised independent troops to fight against them. Yeah. You regularly see this in revolutions within Protestant areas is they do not try to take over an existing part of the standing military.

They try to rage a new force out of nowhere.

Which contrasts heavily with both Catholic and Muslim majority countries. But because we don’t have a lot of Muslim majority , , colonies in the Americas, we can’t point to one. But if you look at the Catholic majority countries in the Americas, , when they would have revolutions unlike the United States, they would often co-opt existing military infrastructure to conduct the revolution instead of raising a military from scratch.

Malcolm Collins: Jews are the same way. Jews as far as I know, [00:17:00] there’s not a single case , in human history of a Jew ever doing a military coup

Simone Collins (2): and Jewish coup.

Malcolm Collins: But when a population doesn’t do coups, and we’ll talk about why they, they may not do coups. It’s actually a very interesting thing, and I probably have more episodes on this ‘cause I don’t exactly know why Protestants never do military coups.

Towards the end of the episode, Simone comes up with what I find to be a really, really intelligent reason why.

Simone Collins (2): You wanna dig deeper? Yeah. Well, I mean, maybe there are some obscure examples or. Examples of it, we wouldn’t,

Malcolm Collins: examples, we’ll get to the obscure examples and they are weird. Like, one was like a, a, a grader guy who tried to take over an island for like a day. It like, they’re small fail weird and bizarre.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: One of the two military coups that I mentioned, so I’ll just go over the only two Protestant ones that were real coups. One was Oliver Cromwell, but that wasn’t really a military coup because the elected parliament asked him to do it, and then he immediately spent the rest of his life trying to set up a DA democracy, [00:18:00] but they just kept fighting with each other and then he replaced them, and then he Poor Cromwell, basically like George Washington.

You know how both sides started to fight. As soon as Washington handed it over. Yeah, yeah. Folks went back to Washington and it was like, okay, we’re fighting, we’re fighting, we’re fighting. We really want to there’s a good movie what is it? What’s the movie we watched on Early American History named after one of the founders?

Simone Collins (2): John Adams.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. John Adams. And so they both basically go to George Washington and they’re like, Hey, can you please come back and take this over? Like, we cannot stop fighting. I need you to come out here and say who’s right. And he’s just like, I won’t do it.

Right. Like, I hands off. I see it’s dysfunctional. I see it looks like it’s falling apart. You have to make this work or else Yeah, umwell, he just kept coming back in and trying to fix it. And then the other one was in, I wanna say Sweden. We’ll get to it. But they just deposed the king and then replaced him with his uncle.

But put in place something like a Magna Carta that just said, basically the king has a lot less powers. Oh, okay. Basically the opposite of a normal military coup. But I’m gonna get going here because it, it gets, it gets worse. Right. So, so. Okay. [00:19:00] We have this case in India and I was like, okay, let’s go back here.

Let’s go back and say a Christian majority population. Right. Because that’s what we’re really interested in. Yeah. When was the last time a Muslim army, you know, read, run by Muslims who were born to Muslim families conquered a Christian region, right? Right. Yeah. When the umay conquest of Iberia, Spain and Portugal in 711 or 718.

Simone Collins (2): What? Oh, oh dear.

Malcolm Collins: So that, that they did control it for 500, 800 reasons, but the problem is wait for 500

Simone Collins (2): to 800 years that

Malcolm Collins: puts them was in Yeah. They control it for a long time. Okay. That, that means that, that the last territorial expansions through conquest that Muslims had was 79 years after Mohammad’s life.

Almost all of the territorial conquests that Muslims did through [00:20:00] war happened within two generations of Muhammad dying 79 years. So let’s go over some other ones that don’t count here. So, there were North African conquests, but those were Muslim. You have Middle East, Persian, India, but those were Hindu Buddhists, some sort of AAN or Christian mixed regions.

And then you, you had the caucuses, but the caucuses were not stable or long lasting. So basically since Muhammad, you just have a long period of retreat. Now let’s get into why that happened. By the way, any thoughts before I go further here?

Simone Collins (2): My first thought was, well, I suppose it doesn’t really matter if they’re not physically taking land at this point in human history because the argument we have always made.

As ISTs is, it’s so ironic that people have fought and killed over land when at this point in human history, all you have to do is have an above replacement birth rate and you will inherit the whole world. It doesn’t matter ‘cause no one else is gonna be there in all that land used [00:21:00] to fight and kill, to take.

However caveat Mormon birth rates are not. Or sorry, but not Mor Mormon. Muslim birth rates are not the thing that people think they’re, everyone’s like, oh, Muslims are gonna take over. Yeah. And they’re really not, they’re not good birth rates. So at first I was like, oh, it’s okay, because my mind was just defaulting to like the unfounded in the end assumption that Muslims are, are repopulating the earth when they’re really not.

So I’m like, well, we can’t do that then. So they’re still screwed. And that, that’s what I’ve been thinking about.

They do, however, have a high birth rate when they’re living off the state in non-Muslim majority areas, eg. Germany, France, the uk, Sweden, et cetera. , but they do not have a high birth rate was in their own countries.

Simone Collins (2): Well, the

Malcolm Collins: Muslims who live like, you know, Orthodox Jews or the Amish, like the really, really strict ones have high birth rates. But the ones who inherit the future, like the people who inherit the future, you need two things.

You need high birth rates and being economically and technologically productive. Yes. And if a, get your high birth rates by being economically unproductive, they are irrelevant [00:22:00] in terms of global control. Yes. And I note here as, as we go further with all of this, there is, this is to say like, suppose you’re a Muslim and you’re like, well then what do I do?

Right? Like, how do I make this work? And it’s like, Muslims have Convergently found a really good way to operate, right? Which is to put non-Muslims in charge of most of the, the, the major operating functions of the economy and support a Muslim elite ruling class. Muslims actually do okay as an elite.

Okay? So they’re just really good delegators. Really good delegators. That’s, that’s it.

Simone Collins (2): They, they, they spot good talent. They utilize talent well, and they, they delegate and manage well.

Malcolm Collins: But you, you, you’ve got to be very careful and not do what the Ottomans did because the Ottomans accidentally cued their entire empire where the class that they delegated to originally, they said they couldn’t get married and have kids.

Mm-hmm. And Dana became hereditary and then they took over a bunch of stuff. Mm-hmm. And, and that was not. Maybe the best thing to do is to take [00:23:00] war slaves and then put them at the top of your empire and have them be significantly more competent and, and have a lot more money to get power and military might than anyone else.

And that is what in large part led to a part of the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. But also Rudyard had a piece on Muslims recently, and I think he is a fantastic historian if you’re interested in getting deep dives into history. The one who I would say is Rubar Samo conversations.

These videos get like a few thousand views, way less in our videos. And they are the most intellectually dense conversations you’re gonna see about history. I, not a historian. Okay. I consider myself much more of a cross-cultural anthropologist with my real expertise being in neuroscience and biology.

Which is funny because we don’t talk about that a lot on the show. But. My background in biology and neuroscience, you often see on how I view anthropology because I view cultures and religions as evolving sort of organisms. And so whenever I make an analogy, [00:24:00] people will notice that my analogies are almost always biological analogies when I point out, like early Muslims exploding onto the scenes like an invasive species.

You know, I’m, I’m using an analogy because I’m, I’m, I’m looking at them and what I immediately see when I look at Muslims or, or Vikings, is an extremophile like you would have with an animal that adapted to a very unique climate extremely erit or extremely cold, extremely harsh. And then encountered groups that didn’t have some of their adaptations that they were able to change in certain ways to explode on the scene.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: One of the things that’s important about early Muslim explosion is that the kingdoms that they ruled were not majority Muslims. So during the period where you have the Islamic golden Age, during the period where you have rapid Muslim expansion they were the minority in most of the regions they controlled.

And not only were they a minority, but they were a minority that did a very good job of finding competent operators to put in positions of power. And they were very, very big about doing [00:25:00] this with Jews. One, one of the things I point out is, is, is Judaism of today is more closer like philosophically.

If you’re looking at the culture of it, it’s closer to Protestant culture than either are to, to Catholic culture or Muslim culture. Really. You go to this period, the early Muslim expansion period. Islam and Judaism were actually very, very, very similar in the way they were practiced, the way they were thought about the way that they operated.

It to the extent where if you go to any of like Maimonides or something, or non monies if, if you go to like any of like the great Jewish scholars for this period they’re always defining Jewish theology. In contrast to Islamic theology and, and, and not in a disparaging manner to Islamic theology.

Specifically they really liked that they saw Muslims as true monotheist instead of what I call them trans monotheists. A a lot of Christians are where they actually have multiple supernatural entities that they’ll deal [00:26:00] with. But they just define those entities as not god’s and therefore they say, I’m not a.

Polytheist. Right? Even though most polytheistic societies have a creator God that makes the other supernatural entities. And so that the Jews of this time like that, the Muslims of this time to do this. Now Muslims don’t do that anymore, but they did this time. But anyway, in Rudy’s video on this, I love, he’s like, I’m gonna try to not offend Muslims in this.

You know? He’s like, I’m, I really respect your culture. What I love is, you know, you’re getting on this video. I respect nobody’s culture. I don’t respect my own culture. I will attack the Jews, I will attack the Muslims. I will attack the Catholics. I have called my own people like Savage Woods, people who will murder you and eat you if you get lost in the woods like that.

And I’m like, and there’s da to back this up. So the point I’m making here is I try to take the opposite perspective of Ruby Yard as being like an intellectual who can go into things while taking a, a, a harsh eye to everything. ‘cause I think that’s, that’s how we improve. But anyway, so, the, the reason why in every period where Muslim culture has really worked is they were very good delegators and they were very good delegators during the Islamic cultural explosion.

And so a lot [00:27:00] of people they saw this and they say, Hey, well this means that the Muslims they didn’t actually Muslim golden age, they were just taking over the scientific institutions of other organizations within those, those places. You know, whether it’s Persia or Greece or anything like that.

To which I would say, well, if you say that. Then you can’t give Catholicism any credit for anything. It’s done in its entire history. Mm-hmm. Because you could, it’s a nepo baby of the Roman Empire, and they were just taking the Roman

Simone Collins (2): institution, the Nepo baby. It’s the Roman Empire Catholicism.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I don’t, I don’t hold that, that position was really either, I think it was Catholicism.

It is actually more arguable than it is with Islam.

Specifically what I mean by this statement, if you know your history of science and medicine, , the development of it significantly dropped after the Catholic Church took over the Roman Empire in the areas where it was being produced. , But the significant, the amount of it significantly increased in the Muslim areas, , like Persia and, , parts of Greece [00:28:00] when they took over.

. But IE it, they were producing more academic works after the Muslims took over than before. So even if they are sort of nepo babying it, at least they didn’t collapse it like the Catholics did.

And I mean, seriously, just think about it. , If we’re not talking about, ‘cause people act like the Muslims just came in at like the end of classical Greece or something like that. They, they did not, this period had been pretty dead for a long time. Post-classical Greece, premus, can you think of any great mathematicians from these regions?

Can you think of any great scientists? You could probably think of like 15 off the top of your head from the Muslim, golden Age. And it’s the same with the, the Roman Empire. I can think of lots of great, , you know, artists, writers, , scientists from, , , the early Roman Empire from the height of the Roman Empire.

But once you get into the Christian period, there are some, it’s not a complete drought, but it’s, it’s not as many.

And I have to [00:29:00] be clear, it really does seem to be the, a arising of specifically the Catholic sentiment around knowledge of being extremely focused on,, the sort of knowledge of those before you. So you take somebody like, you know, like the development of medicine in Rome and you go up to Galen and then, you know, just a few generations after him, Constantine comes into power and there’s basically no medicine.

, Developed in this region for the next century or so. I.

Malcolm Collins: Were really allowed for the Islamic golden age of science to happen. Mm-hmm. Was that the Muslims of this period, because they were a minority ruling class, tried to play the minority classes off of each other instead of having sort of a, a, a total control?

Right. You know, I mean, so they would say, who’s the, the smartest Jew here? Who’s the smartest Christian of this type here? Who’s the smartest? And they specifically would try to elevate groups based on how minority they were. So the smaller a group was, the [00:30:00] better they were to put into a position of like, pseudo power because they’d be more grateful for it. So like suppose you come in and you conquer Spain, and Spain is majority Christian and you have a minority Jewish population. Right. So, who is least likely to help a rebellion if you give them disproportionate rights? The Jews. Right. Because if you give the Jews more rights than the Christians the Christians are, if, if they win a rebellion, it goes back to being a Christian territory.

Mm-hmm. But if you make things nicer for the minorities that were there before you got there, not now they have a, a vested interest in not seeing you leave. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and you don’t just do this for Jews, you do this for minority Christian populations. ‘cause Spain has a bunch of different groups that all hate each other and they’ve hated each other forever.

And that’s why they’re always on the break of splitting up. We’re not gonna get into that right now. The point being is that is what allowed for the Islamic golden age. The, the great periods of success was in Islam were when they were the minority. But this is the problem that you get largely with Islam, but it’s not just with Islam.

Everyone does this. [00:31:00] I love everyone points. Islam does this, everybody does this. Is they say that, well, what Islam does is they come in and they treat everyone. Because when you’re a minority, your goal is to respect minorities. It’s to respect other people’s ways. And then when you become a majority, then you stop respecting other people’s ways.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Classic dynamic.

Malcolm Collins: Classic dynamic. But and our society, we saw this was like the Wokes, right? Like when the leftist cultures you know, the LGBT culture, the, the, the, the sort of the wider culture around that was like a fringe culture before they dominated our cultural institutions and everything like that, right?

It was. You know, we just want to be able to live our own way. And, and they genuinely believed that’s what they were fighting for. The same way the Muslims of that period likely believed, Hey, we just want everyone to, you know, get along. And now that they feel they have power, you know, they’ll defend somebody jacking off in a woman’s restroom, right?

Like, it’s happened recently. They’re like, that’s a totally normal thing to do, right? And it’s like, well, it’s actually like, like I could see why women feel really unsafe in that environment. Yeah. [00:32:00] But anyway, the, the point here being is everybody does this, right? This is, this is why when I point out, Hey guys, you really don’t want to put X group in power.

When they have had unilateral,

I’m getting carried away and about to miss closing the point here, which is that Islam. We have all these stories about how nice they were as rulers and how nice they were to Christians and how nice they were to Jews. , When they ruled these territories, and this is actually true, when they were still the minority in these territories, when they became the majority in these territories because they were rulers, while they were still minorities, when they became the majority in these territories, they typically became.

Quite abusive to the existing populations. In fact, the only population I can think of that is really consistently decent to minority populations when they’re the majority population is sometimes Protestants. , Look at like Cromwell’s England or something. [00:33:00] Inviting the Jews back in and trying to create some degree of religious, , freedom laws when he had the ability.

To just completely quash anything that wasn’t his own beliefs, and he didn’t.

Malcolm Collins: like the reason why the US. Had such an explosion was because it was a multicultural society and those cultures worked cohesively with each other. Yeah. And I’m not saying you just want more cultures for the sake of more cultures. Right. Like the original founding cultures of America were just like really good cultures to work alongside each other.

Yeah. Right. They, they were not like, if, if you imported a bunch of people from i, I, I don’t know where, but somewhere into early America, it probably would’ve fallen. Well, but the other thing about multiculturalism is it needs to be multiculturalism whiz, strict cultural hierarchies and understanding that you are part of your culture within that society.

Right. So like, you mean

Simone Collins (2): sort of knowing who you belong to, but also there being these distinct groups. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To belong. Suppose

Malcolm Collins: [00:34:00] you’re in an early Islamic, like one of these multicultural environments Right. Where they actually make work.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, if I as a Christian, or I as a Jew you know, was like, oh, I’m just gonna go rob people, right?

Like, I don’t care. And I allowed my community to become like an unsafe community, right? Like you, you don’t walk through the Jewish neighborhood because they’ll, they’ll stab you and take all your stuff, right? Mm-hmm.

You know. They would’ve said, oh, like the Muslims in charge, they would’ve said, oh, Jews are a problem.

Let’s do like a grom or something like that. Right? And, and you could say that now in our society, if there is an ethnic group or a cultural group that allows their neighborhood to become dangerous, right? We should just be able to say, Hey, X people are a problem. They’re being a problem for everyone else.

And we should treat them differently than other groups. And, and in our society, we call that racism, right? But the, the reason why that form of racism actually made society work or, or not race, like. Anti-religion or anti culturalism worked is because then you had [00:35:00] a reason to interculturally police when, you know, if you allow your neighborhood to become a dangerous place, if you don’t interculturally police, that the surrounding cultures will take that out on all of your people.

And you have a strong community identity that your community alters will build up systems for dealing with that. And this is what historically happened in these many of these Muslim empires like you had the millet system and stuff like that, which we’ll get into in a separate episode. But the, the, the point here being is multiculturalism kind of requires racism to work.

It requires cultural accountability. Right. And that’s a really

Simone Collins (2): interesting point. Yeah. That, that well, I guess we should say functional and productive multiculturalism that moves humanity on the whole forward. Also requires some level of, not just, I, I don’t know if racism is the word, but like, in internal or, or natural, but unforced, segregation, pride, [00:36:00] minor amounts of xenophobia.

And, and, and maybe some, some racism. Or at least No, I mean, in early America

Malcolm Collins: had this, right? Like this is the thing. No, totally.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Yeah. The, the Quakers freaking hated the race. The, the the, the Puritans and the Puran Puran hated the Quakers,

Malcolm Collins: for example, this is not a race-based thing. The Puritans of the Quakers effing hated each other.

Oh, they, they were

Simone Collins (2): at each other’s throats. Yeah. There were some hilarious anecdotes of this. They would

Malcolm Collins: like, they’d literally like tore in feather, like if a a, a quake, a pur, a Quaker went into Puritan territory. Yeah. Like, you know, strip them naked, pour boiling oil on them. Oh. And the

Simone Collins (2): Quakers hated the Scots Irish.

They were like, these guys are worse than the Indians

Malcolm Collins: can

Simone Collins (2): stand them. Well, the

Malcolm Collins: Such Irish were constantly killing the Quakers. Well, I mean,

Simone Collins (2): it’s so fun. How can you help yourself?

Malcolm Collins: They

Simone Collins (2): don’t fight back.

Malcolm Collins: It’s hilarious. Sport people, the point here being is that every one of these early groups in America had very strong prejudices against the other groups.

Oh yeah. ‘cause the Cavaliers were

Simone Collins (2): so confident that they were [00:37:00] better than everyone else.

Malcolm Collins: They were so confident they were better than everyone else. And they were, and all, all of these major cultural groups in early America were white. The, the capital, yeah. The Puritans, the Quakers and the backwards people.

Simone Collins (2): I mean there were also, you know, the, the, the African slaves. I mean, separately you had the indentured servants who were also like, I mean, let’s just hope you die so I don’t have to give you your land. And then there were the slaves, which were like, you know, there were periods in early American

Malcolm Collins: history where only one in seven indentured servants survived.

Yeah. I, I might do an episode on this later, but like by many metrics, if you. Certain periods of American history your probability and your quality of life of, of, of living and having a good life was higher if you were coming over on an African slave ship than as an indentured servant.

Simone Collins (2): Well, you have to look at the incentives.

The, the problem with indentured servitude was as an indentured servant, the agreement was you would do a certain number of years of work for a family household, parcel of land, whatever. And then you were entitled to [00:38:00] certain things, including land, sometimes money, and if you were dead, they didn’t have to give you those things.

Yes. So, to, to,

Malcolm Collins: Just to be very clear about this, where people are unaware of how bad intention are. Two, what is early America? It was typically a period of seven years and. The master had to give you I think a couple acres of land. Of their land. Yeah. Unless you died. Yeah. Then there was no who, negative consequence to the earth.

That’s

Simone Collins (2): an adverse incentive right there, friend. That’s an adverse incentive. It’s like if, if, if I am purchased instead as a slave, the person who purchased me spent money to acquire me already, like the, the investment was already made. I’m now a sunk cost. And they’re like, well, I don’t wanna lose my investment.

And yeah, they, I, I am. Yeah, they wanna, I mean, I’m gonna depreciate over time, I guess like as I age and get worn down by all the horrible work you make me do and stuff. But like, I, I’m not a liability. You’re a liability as an indentured [00:39:00] servant. You are better off being sort of worked to death. Whereas slaves, like if you work, let, let’s just, let’s just take the humanity out of this, right?

Like, let’s say you buy an optimist from. Elon Musk I don’t know what is the company that makes ‘em, is, is it Tesla that’s makes C from Tesla? You’re not gonna wanna break it, you know, like work it until it breaks and like, not take care of it. Not charge it and not maintain it. Right. Because you paid a lot of money for it upfront.

But like, if, if it was only something that you had to pay for after seven years and assuming it still functioned, wouldn’t you like work it really heavily and kind of hope that it broke before you had to pay for it? Like, you know?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, it’s like, yeah, it’s that’s a good way to put it. Like, you get one of these and you don’t have to pay for it if it’s broken at the end of seven years.

Yeah. Very weird payment structure. I’m gonna be honest. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And was even worse if there was virtually no [00:40:00] accountability because the people who were indentured servants weren’t like from the local community. They were from like places in like. The rural parts of, like Scotland and Ireland mm-hmm.

Where their parents wouldn’t be able to get back at you. No one in their community when you put out the next indentured servant ad would know what happened to the last indentured servant.

Simone Collins (2): So well there, there wasn’t exactly accountability with mistreatment of slaves either. However, there again, it’s just like the, the incentives were not as adverse.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but we’re not saying slavery was good. No. Here. No, no. But the point I’m making here, when I talk about RA racism in the world, you need prejudice for multiculturalism to work because then there’s cultural accountability. That’s what prejudice is. It’s cultural accountability. And it was really sort of stupid of society to say that there should be no, that you can’t be like, there is a trend within this community because as soon as you can say that, then you can address the trends, right, interculturally.

Basically, if you made it this far in this episode, it’s about to get about 30 times more spicy

Speaker 6: My hot take is probably that goblins are basic running society. I mean, who [00:41:00] runs Gringotts Goblins? The Daily Prophet Goblin, literally the entire ministry of magic have gone to Goblin every year to pledge allegiance. By kissing some sort of sacred goblin wall, cooked beyond belief makes it’s insane. My hot take is that gingers are more oppressed than black people.

Malcolm Collins: but what happened? Why, why did the Muslims spread as fast as they did to begin with? Right? So let’s, let’s talk about this. The, the reality is, is that Byzantium in Persia had just fought 30 years of total war. They were broke, depopulated, politically fractured, and religiously divided. They were beginning to have the big religious divisions of early Christianity and Islam at the time unified a a, a tribal group and had a very easy time just sort of moving in and taking things over using a, a, a meritocratic force like Mohammed, and when people are like, Mohammed wasn’t a real person. I’m, you’re clearly an imb, like Muhammad was obviously a real person, right? Like the, the stories about him aren’t even all that flattering all the time.

Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): They’re extremely human stories. Yeah. I [00:42:00] mean. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Couldn’t even write. Like if you’re gonna make something up about somebody, at least make them sound, this is like the Yeah. At least

Simone Collins (2): make something about like a mountain and a hummingbird and I don’t know. You know? Cool. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like the, the, this is what I also say about Jesus.

It’s like, I’m pretty sure if Jesus was completely fictitious, he wouldn’t have been born in a barn. Okay. Um, With, with the whole of, of, of the miracles being three wise men come and say, yeah, this kid’s probably important. You know, that’s, that’s not the biggest of mirror. You could, you could at least go Kim Jong-un level where like Unior was spotted.

Yeah. And like a mountain it split open when he was born. Yeah. Yeah. And these are like verifiable things too, right? Like, and, and we’re, we’re going for this within our generation. Right. And this is a real person and they feel the need to make this stuff up.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway. Basically as soon as Islam started to break apart the, the, because you [00:43:00] have one state for like 50 years after Mohammad, then within 200 years, three big rival Caliphates, 500 years, 20 competing states, and now you have dozens of Muslim politics.

And basically Islam works when it’s unified and as soon as it broke up, Islam has a tendency to instantly want to reunify before it expands. By broke

Simone Collins (2): up, do you mean Sunni and Shia, or do you mean something different?

Malcolm Collins: Well, there were three big rival caliphate. Even among the Sunnis, they fight each other.

Oh, just the

Simone Collins (2): Oh, okay. Just the Caliphates. Ah, yeah. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: okay. Yeah. They are constantly attempting to reunify whenever you see. And, and this is actually just sort of core to broader Muslim ideology, and it’s, it is really fascinating to me. And, but it, it, it helps you understand why they act like the, the rolins in that scene.

Is that if you, if their instinct, like whenever they’re ruling a region or something like that, and keep in mind when I’m talking about their rapid expansion, who was running these, these regions, but like [00:44:00] nepotistic elites that had been there since the Roman period often, right? Like, not really competent operators were at the wheel of a lot of these places.

Mm-hmm. And keep in mind, these were Roman operators of often non Roman territories, right? So this would be like North Africa, Persia, et cetera, right? So that was the region that Muslims took over really effectively. It was the road, the regions that Rome ruled, but only ruled as an elite not replacing the existing population.

Speaker 2: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And so Islam basically was better at doing that than the existing powers within those regions. But it also makes sense because. If you, if you look at something like Islam and you’re like, their period of greatest growth, and it was one of the fastest growths of any culture we’ve ever seen in human history happened during a period where they were unified.

Of course, they would want to return to a unified state so they can recontinue that push. But they, [00:45:00] they don’t have good mechanisms for doing that like the Crusades or anything like that, like the Christians did during the Crusades where they were able to unify multiple Christian groups to fight together for a common cultural aim.

But let’s talk about why they, they sucked so much in the in the, in the war to take Israel, right? The, the, the core reason being is that, egypt and Syria they had different goals and their commanders, and this is another thing within Islam. Islam is a very hierarchical society. But we’ll get to why, because they basically have to be so the on the ground commanders within the Muslim forces were not able to make their own decisions where in Jewish forces they were able to make their own decisions.

And so you would have things like the ground cover for like air defense along the Egypt line didn’t move up as the tank crews were moving up. So when the really big tank battle they had, they got absolutely cream was like much lower Israeli numbers because the Israelis were able to do air support, which shouldn’t have even had the ability to do.

But within the Muslim [00:46:00] forces you, all you had to do was follow your commanders and you, you don’t make your own decisions. And if you’re given a rule and you break that rule and it ends up bad, or even if it ends up good, you can be punished. But that’s not the way it works within Jewish forces. And this also isn’t the way it works within most Protestant forces.

And the question is, is why? It’s, it’s, it is, this is because of the coup issue. The reason why you have to be so strict and hierarchical within these other societies is because of a fear of military coups. Oh. Were the idea, and Jews who watch this can tell me if, if the idea that an IDF commander would even consider a coup.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, I, yeah. It is comical, but I mean, it’s also Yeah, actually genuinely comical. That’s funny that it is though, considering how common coups are in general, isn’t it?

Malcolm Collins: Well, they’re, again, they’re not common in Jewish or Protestant areas. Yeah. The Protestants just do, and it’s, it’s also because there’s many the American armed [00:47:00] forces have always been predominantly staffed or disproportionately staffed depending on the period of American history you’re looking at by people of the Backwoods cultural group, which is a clan based and tribal cultural group.

But they never start coups. And I don’t actually know why, like, I almost want to think deeper about this. Can

Simone Collins (2): someone who has, I don’t know, extremely deep Jewish history knowledge and community knowledge and, and, and power dynamic knowledge. I mean, we, we know it’s a very intellectually meritocratic culture, but I, I don’t know why that would preclude them from being vulnerable to coups.

So what’s.

Malcolm Collins: So, so first I wanna talk about, because it is important that you notice these patterns. This is what makes me very different. So if you watch Ruby Yard, you’re getting actual history. If you’re getting me it’s pattern noticing, right? And patterns can tell you something, especially when they’re severe patterns.

So, to get an idea of just how severe this pattern is of coups in, in Muslim territories, [00:48:00] just between 1945 and today, Turkey has had multiple coups. Pakistan has had multiple coups. Egypt had a coup in 1952. In 2013, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Algeria have all had military officers overthrow the governments.

Now. Let’s go over all of Protestant history. How many coups have they had? Okay. Okay. Had the overthrow of King Gustav, the force to introduce constitutional reform. Basically further decentralized power. This was in Sweden in 1809, where you constitutional reform right away here. And then the one before that was England 1640s to 1660.

And this was Cromwell, which is pretty laughable to think of as a military coup. He was doing it on behalf of the Parliament because he thought the king was becoming too authoritarian and kept trying to set up a democracy. Like that was his goal. Yeah. The, the only other one that we have is.[00:49:00]

Iceland in 1809 where a, a weird tiny coup by a traitor using a Danish warship and collapsed very quickly. That’s obscure. The only real potential counter to this you might have is Fiji, which has had three coups.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, Fiji, Protestant. Famously Protestant, Fiji.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, it’s very religiously mixed. I don’t think it’s a good example.

The coups were not led. This is it. It’s a, it’s, it’s obviously a different cultural group, right. It’s not the cultural group we talk about when we talk about, but it, it, it matters a lot that when I’m able to look at these Muslim majority countries sort of all over the place. It’s co, co, co, co, co, co co Then you go to the other group and it’s co never.

Even when you have a revolution, it is not done through a military coup. Right. Which is a very weird and harder way to do a revolution. Yeah. Now let’s be past countries because again, they’re more like, and as a I’ll probably do on this where I actually argue that if you’re, if you’re talking about like [00:50:00] cultural distance Judaism and Protestantism are much more culturally close to each other.

And, and modernism

Speaker 2: and

Malcolm Collins: modern Islam are culturally closer to each other. Really. Hmm. Now, now with this being the case I’d argue that the distance between modern Catholicism and modern Islam is further culturally than the distance between modern Protestantism and modern Judaism. Which I think are actually quite culturally similar.

And I think there’s been a, a big siop to try to convince people that this isn’t the case. But we can actually just think about it. Okay. Have you ever you’ve traveled a lot, right, Simone? You’ve traveled, I’m asking you, have you? Yes. I, I have tra I have traveled Europe. You’ve been across Southern Europe, right?

Yes. Okay. There’s definitely, and you’ve been across Latin America, right? Yes. So there’s definitely a feel to Catholic majority countries. And there’s, there is yeah. Feel to Protestant majority countries. Yeah. And if you go to Jewish areas, do you get a Protestant majority feel or a Catholic majority feel

Simone Collins (2): Protestant [00:51:00] feel?

Oh my gosh. What’s up with that?

Malcolm Collins: I mean, if you That’s weird. Israel feels like Scotland. Scottish. Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): You were like, it

Malcolm Collins: feels like Edinburgh. Really weird. That’s strange. But anyway so if you’re talking about the, the Catholic ones, you’ve had multiple coups across Latin America. They basically do it all the time.

Yeah. Argent, Chile, Brazil, Venezuela, Peru have had repeated military takeovers. Mexico with had countless coups from the 18 hundreds to the 19 hundreds. Southern Europe. Spain had multiple coups. Portugal has had multiple military backed regimes. Italy, pre fascism and attempted coups, central or Eastern Europe.

Poland, pre-war, war ii had a coup. Austria-Hungary collapsed, had a coup. But hold on, this, this gets interesting because again, note here, I’m talking across Protestant countries. Has Canada ever had a military coup? Has Australia,

Simone Collins (2): not to my knowledge that,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, had any, no, but this is weird. There’s a lot of countries here that you might not even be thinking of as Protestant majority countries.

Gosh, this is the core difference [00:52:00] is something about, and we may have to have a separate episode where we hypothesize on this. I want our fans to brainstorm on this. And it’s also why I think was in a, in a modern war context where you need like more complicated tactics and everything like that.

And we actually saw this in World War ii who got their butt handed to them every time there was a conflict, it was. The Catholics, Italy got smashed. They got their butt kicked by Ethiopians. Okay. Ethiopians. This was a modern, industrialized European country.

Let’s not even talk about France, so we don’t embarrass anyone.

Malcolm Collins: I’m just pointing out Spain couldn’t even get themselves together enough to play a role in the war.

So they were fighting with each other.

Like at least France tried. Spain is like one of those Pokemon when it ends up saying it hurt itself in its own confusion.

Malcolm Collins: Ireland kicked their own butts and did nothing. No. They did, they did nothing. So we don’t know if they would’ve [00:53:00] been effective. Who, who put up the big fight? It was Germany. Germany put up the big fight. They did. They did. Germany was the hard one. They, they, in fact, this is this, if you look at the relative strengths of Germany and Italy in World War ii, right? Like Italy, we often think of as like the comic relief villain for World War ii.

Germany recognizes his friend Italy

Pasta.

Malcolm Collins: They, they weren’t like that much smaller than Germany. They weren’t that much less industrialized in Germany. Their culture just was not as competent in military operations as Germans was.

But I feel like, you know, because of sort of the psyop of all Christians are the same culture, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. People can go their whole lives, know exactly how every country in World War II performed and not put two and two together. That, oh my God, the Catholic countries did [00:54:00] terribly. And it is wild to me.

It is. It’s, and it’s not like it was one of the Catholic countries or just on average the Catholic countries did worse. Every single one of the Catholic countries was a complete embarrassment in the war with, . Every single big player in the war except for the Japanese being a Protestant country.

If you’re wondering by the way, the last time a Catholic majority country beat a Protestant majority country in a war with the 30 years war in 1618 to 1648. A long, long time ago,

Malcolm Collins: But the question is, is why? Because, because if you have the coup instinct, you can never trust your military. And so you have more hierarchical command structures.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Don’t have the coup instinct. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. I’m having an i a a memory here. I was reading a case study of them trying to set up Disney Disney Park in France.

Yeah. And they had this big [00:55:00] problem because all of the people from Northern Europe or the Protestant majority country would wait in

Simone Collins (2): line. So then all the people from Southern Europe would not queue.

Malcolm Collins: They, they cut in all the lines. Yeah. So

Simone Collins (2): how do you handle that? Yeah. How,

Malcolm Collins: and they, and the question with this, how do you handle that?

When they didn’t understand why the Northern Europeans would wait, when you could just cut and the security force wouldn’t kick you out or would do less. And then the, the, the Northern Europeans were all waiting in line how do you do this? But then the bigger question is, is my own culture, because my own culture is more just do whatever you can get away with.

If you can get away with it. But of course, you would never have a coup. Right. Like it’s very consequentialist, but then of course you would never have a coup. And so why do we have the idea? I’ll, I’ll tell you what my instinct is Okay. As to why we don’t think about coups. Okay. Because again, I would just, you wouldn’t think about it either.

They wouldn’t be how you gain power, right? Mm-hmm. I think it might, I

Simone Collins (2): think a lot of it, here’s, here’s my, here’s my hypothesis. I wanna see how it compares to yours. Is it comes from a di distaste of the systems that you. Would you be taking over where you to do a queue? [00:56:00] You believe that you can do it better, whether or not you actually can.

And so you want to start fresh. You have a, a, a distinct disdain for the existing system and a faith in the grassroots and therefore. You would never think to try to take over that which is there, instead to, you just wanna push out and get rid of that which was there. That is your, that is

Malcolm Collins: it. I think you solved it.

Okay. So here’s what it is. So Protestantism is known for a hatred of idolatry. And idolatry was, in especially early Protestantism expands to basically anything that can be used for status signaling. Whether that is. Music or art or theater or all of the stuff that is associated with high culture and stuff like that.

So, when you see a group with a lot of power and Muslims were the opposite of this, Muslims loved that stuff. While they had strong anti idolatry laws, the anti idolatry laws were expanded to like explicitly paintings. [00:57:00] But if you’re gonna make something that was really, oh, this comes down to idolatry,

Simone Collins (2): you think,

Malcolm Collins: yes, I’ll explain how, but if you’re gonna make something really pretty and covered in gold and everything like that, oh, you can get away with it.

In fact, Muslim culture at its height was incredibly indulgent. Lots of gay sex, lots of orgies, lots of this was, this was like big during the Muslim golden ages. We might have another episode on that. It’s a very interesting period. Not at all what people think. The more like really strict Muslim cultural stuff only came in basically after their cultures collapsed.

But. Well, so you had the anti idolatry rules and the anti idolatry as it is interpreted by Protestantism, very different than the way Islam interprets it. The way Islam interprets it is, is very strict, just like not art and stuff like that, but you can have all the gold you can have. So, to a Muslim, if they saw another guy with a palace or something like that and they do a military coup, right?

Mm-hmm. It’s now I get the palace. Yeah. I get the, and you see this Muslim cultures, whether you’re talking about like Persian or Arab Muslims, we have our joke that Trump has a Persian soul because everything he dresses looks Persian. [00:58:00] Right? Like, well, all the gold. All the gold Persian. We have a song about it too.

Yeah. But the point here being is that, the, the if you, if you go to these Muslim countries, right? Like you go to their, their houses and everything like that. Yeah. I have always found them to be instinctively disgusting to me. Like they It’s not your aesthetic.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You can, you can say, oh, well, you know, and I grew up among very, very wealthy people. I have never seen this level of waste. And, and the waste repulsed me. The, the, the fact that they’re trying to signal with this, the fact that they and so I would just never want that. But if you are somebody else within their culture, and you see all this person has all of this fancy stuff, look at the distinction.

Look at all the harems they have. Look at all the, if I can just take it over, then I get all of their stuff right. And now I can live like a king, right? I can live in this extremely wealthy, nice lifestyle, right? Where when you have like even a, like, why did Oliver Cromwell keep [00:59:00] wanting to set up a democracy, right?

Why did he keep wanting to reinstate parliament? It was because he didn’t want the power himself. Why did George Washington immediately be like. I just wanna go live on my farm. No, no. He was one of the wealthiest men in America, but I think the wealthiest actually he just wanted to go live on a farm.

Also, if you don’t know this, it was a, it was a very fancy farm, right? But a lot of the Simone, by the way, descended from two lines from George Washington. He didn’t have any kids himself, but two of his siblings had kids that she’s descended from. And we didn’t find that until I tried to trace back which one it was.

And then another family member handed us a book they had traced it from, and it’s two lines, so you should be, these should be American monarchy here. Anyway, so George Washington here he achieves success. And then what is his ideal life if you are this anti the fancy things in life? And Simone and I talk about this regularly.

We have a trickle of money now and hopefully we can get a new stream of income, but like the income I need to live my absolute best life possible is very, [01:00:00] very low because I do not want that much stuff. And if I had more income than that, I would be doing stuff like trying to disrupt countries or build AI systems or which we’re already doing anyway, right?

Like I’d just be building cool stuff, right? Like, actually this reminds me of one of my ancestors. So he was offered a stake in Rockefeller’s Corporation. Rockefeller said, oh, do you want like 16% or something?

Simone Collins (2): I didn’t know this. Which one was this?

Malcolm Collins: This was the one in Pennsylvania who was the crazy inventor who had it.

So like when you go to his house the gates would automatically open and everything like that.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And he said no. All he wanted was a private train that he could use whenever he wanted to so he could have his home that was full of like gadgets and inventions. Mm-hmm. But then also his private train cart.

So he could basically travel around the country in an early version of like a live

Simone Collins (2): plane basically. He didn’t want to be around

Malcolm Collins: people, he just wanted to live a decent life with his family. But that’s the thing you No, but it wasn’t just George Washington. Think about you know, Benjamin Franklin or other American [01:01:00] founding fathers

Simone Collins (2): was a huge extrovert.

No,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, no. But think about what he wanted. He wanted his nicest estate. He, he focused on his nicest estate. But or think about the the one from the documentary we were just talking about what’s it called? We just talked about it. .

Simone Collins (2): John Adams.

Malcolm Collins: What did John Adams want to do? He, after he was president, he wanted to go back, live on his farm and raise his kids. Right. Like, that’s, and it’s because you have this intense disdain for all of the luxuries in society. So if you ever conquer them, and it’s also

Simone Collins (2): interesting though, is you see this, and we were talking about this last night in Orthodox Jewish communities, like the difference in.

In, in sort of standards and that like they, they just live modestly and focus on their faith and their families and their community. And instead of like, oh, I’m going to, you know, acquire a ton of wealth and flashy things and whatnot, that’s not what it’s

Malcolm Collins: about

Simone Collins (2): at all. Well,

Malcolm Collins: with the Jews, I think it’s a completely different thing.

So Catholics of course, love their fancy things, their gold and gems and everything like that.

Speaker 9: I love gold. [01:02:00] The look of it, the taste of it,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. But as we pointed out,

Simone Collins (2): this religion has the best outfits, the best they do have the best outfits. They went, they went hands down. No, no question. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But if, if you go into like a, think about your classic Catholic like mobster house or something like that, it’s very ornate, very over the top.

Lots and lots of showy things. Yeah. But the funny thing about Jews is Jews are not against overly indulging in, in fancy design and stuff like that, and art they just, I’m being offensive to everyone in this episode. So, so bear with me as I say this. I, I am convinced they are completely blind to aesthetic taste something about

Simone Collins (2): No, they’re very sensitive to aesthetic taste.

It’s just bad taste. No. Yes. They,

Malcolm Collins: they, they may have an aesthetic taste that is so distant. See, I can go to one of these really AAU ostentatious Catholic cathedrals or Catholic homes like mobster homes or even, you know, Muslim homes or Iranian homes. And I can be like, [01:03:00] I am offended and revolted by the opulence on display here.

Mm-hmm. But I can see how you could think this is pretty right. But typically because we lived in like Miami, right? So I go into like rich Jewish homes in Miami. I’m like. Th this modern art, what were you thinking? Like, I cannot even model how somebody could think that this looks good, this giant McMansion makes no sense.

Like the, the, these pieces architecturally do not fit together. Like, what were you and then you go, and you know this from jokes about Protestant families, but Protestant families really like buying, especially wealthy ones. And it’s like a, a known thing is you, you buy the older house and there’s a few things you may put in it to show that you’re wealthy.

Yeah. Like, model boats are one thing you see a lot of paintings of, of cottages. I joke about being something you see a lot of. But it’s otherwise like ships.

Simone Collins (2): The, the ships always. Yeah. That’s what I joke

Malcolm Collins: about in the Trump song, that he’s clearly Iranian because he has no model ships in his house.

Where are the model ships? He [01:04:00] has no cottages in his house. Oh. Yeah. But that’s, I think that’s it. It’s when you have everything you want in life, do you just want to go back and live on a farm? And if you do, then there’s no reason to ever have a military coup, or do you want to take all of the stuff from the wealthiest person in society and live as opulently as possible?

Mm. And idolatry bans make the latter possible.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Or the, the former possible. The question is, is why don’t Jews do it then? Because Jews do not have that strict of idolatry bans. And I have seen Jews be pretty opulent before. They’re just, I, I just don’t think that they, they, I think that they do opulence to try to signal that they’re rich, but they don’t desire it in and of itself,

Simone Collins (2): I guess.

Yeah. I’m I’m not quite sure. I, I’m gonna have to sit on this and think about it. I’m really not sure. But anyway, this was interesting. Thank you. I, we, we haven’t gone hard on, on Islam or Muslims. So this [01:05:00] was, I guess, yeah, the the rampage against everyone continues, or,

Malcolm Collins: or there’s a solution to this for Muslims.

If you want Islam to have a cultural explosion, again, Uhhuh you need to do is extremely tighten your regulations on idolatry. Oh. To focus on all forms of wealth in excess. I thought you were gonna

Simone Collins (2): say hire Christian mercenary groups, which also you can do that. I think a

Malcolm Collins: combination of both. Yeah. But the, the, the Muslims already do that, right?

Yeah. They’re Japanese or whatever. Right.

Simone Collins (2): But yeah, use, use SoftBank to manage your money. Get Aaron deal and Palantir to or sorry, and real and Palantir to manage your, your military stuff. Hire some. Private mercenary groups, but mostly automated, honestly. But the problem is that

Malcolm Collins: I don’t, I don’t, I, I can’t think of any Muslim doing this.

Because if you’re familiar with like, oh, what I could totally, I, no, because they have to l listen because Andrew else wants to work with the US S give your own [01:06:00] wealth in luxuries. That’s the first step in imposing this as a cultural wide ban. So even if you are like the head of one of the Emiratis which one of them is going to be the first to say, okay, I’m donating all my wealth, I’m donating all my stuff.

I mean, two generations ago my family was as wealthy as any of them are. And we donated all of our stuff to the, either the Baptist church or to various, what is it? Various charities. Yeah. Really heavily just bled ourselves dry to charities because that was the point of it. That was the point of having money in the first place, right?

Totally. Yeah. But, and a, a lot of these, and it would be even worse for these Muslim countries because there’s many celebrations that they have sort of evolved as a culture, which are meant to show off to like the people, how wealthy, the wealthy people in your community are. Mm-hmm. Like you go to their house for certain like things during Ramadan where like you eat at the wealthy person’s house and everybody like eats at the table really quickly and they have the next group in and then the next group.

So they are basically, yeah. You went to one of these,

Simone Collins (2): didn’t you?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. For like the general public or at least the wealthy people in the general public and [01:07:00] this is they wouldn’t be able to do that if they tried to operate like Protestants did, which would be extremely austerely.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Well, we’ll see if anyone figures that out.

We often point out, I mean, this got the Puritans who were I think the most Protestant of the Protestants, , like Ebenezer screws just clearly meant to be one. , And, , you know, even though he eats slop every day and is extremely frugal, , he is really disliked by his community because he tries to invest in ways that are sustainable instead of giving money.

To the family who has the starving tiny Tim yet is trying to have a big Christmas feast. Instead of putting that money into Tiny Tim like a responsible family would be, it’s their fault he dies. It’s not Scrooge’s fault that he didn’t give money to. You know what I’m gonna crash out about this?

Malcolm Collins: But it can be done. It’s not core as long it has what it needs in the books, idolatry bands. Yeah. It just act on them.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, no, totally. Well, I love you very, very much too, and thank you.[01:08:00]

Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So, I’ve gotten to a point again where you’re a bottleneck in terms of testing and giving me a thumbs up on thumbs down on taking it public. Okay. I actually spent today working on the agent. I was hard at finding new bugs. Specifically I built out a system that allows the agent to go online, like open browsers and interact with browsers and see browsers.

Yes. So now it can issue commands, like go to Reddit, get on Reddit, post on Reddit. And I also combined it with a bunch of technology that is meant to get around sites that are trying to detect bots. So, oh. It should be able to, if it has like its own account, what it was practicing doing is like, can it go and try to buy something on Amazon or something like that.

You know, obviously these are terms of service violations, which is why it’s only in an experimental context that we’re working on these right now. And at the end of the day it’s, it’s, it’s really the AI models that are doing this, not us. You know, that we, we don’t own these, these these models. We don’t control these models.

It’s the user. [01:09:00] Yeah. They’re supposed to

Simone Collins (2): be their own identities with their own choices, not ours.

Malcolm Collins: Totally. So, that’s, that’s gonna be a lot of fun. But yeah, it took me so long to get like the basic site as stable as it is now, so I’m glad we’re finally there.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, I will, I will test it tomorrow then.

I’m excited for that.

Malcolm Collins: All right.

Simone Collins (2): Make sure that Octavian is still watching. Bill Knight, the science guy. Yep, he is. I love living in a smart house. I love that our house is old but smart that we have like an intercom system and I can play Bill Knight Science guy videos on the TV downstairs as Octavian plays with futuristic army men and our old kitchens.

Yeah. Delightful.

Speaker 7: He strides through hallways decked in gold, so bright. Like a sultan’s palace glowing day [01:10:00] and night. Marble pillars glimmer, echoing his name. A Persian king or president, one and the same. Shimmering drapes, flush rugs under each foot. A A fortress of bling that no one can refute. Gold leaf on the ceiling, mirrors everywhere.

He’s bold, he’s brash, who else would even dare? Where are the paintings of boats, of horses so rare? Where are random cottages in frames, why aren’t they there? And where are the model ships, decked out in their coats? Where We’re asking our first Persian friends, show us those votes.

He bedazzles ballrooms, each corner ornate. [01:11:00] Like something out of ancient lore, or so we state. Halls paved in splendor, shining under the light. Surprise, surprise, he’s got It’s quite a sight.

He claims he’s classy with flair unmatched. A thousand chandeliers perfectly dispatched. Grand Tourette’s, big fountains, exotic mystique. All hail our Persian prez. So lavish, unique. Where are the paintings of boats? Of horses so rare? Random cottages in frames, why aren’t they there? And where are the model ships?

Decked out in their coats? We’re asking our first Persian friends. Show us! Those boats,

[01:12:00] every corner gilded, every surface gleams like shy era fantasies, fresh out of dreams. Marble upon marble, a treasure trove of hue. Yes, it’s gaudy, but hey, it’s trumped through and through. Where are the paintings of boats, of horses so rare, random cottages in frames, why And where the model ships decked out in their coats Our gilded Persian president,

please bring on those boats

In this episode, Simone & Malcolm Collins dive deep into the escalating conspiracy theories from Candace Owens’ world—especially after Charlie Kirk’s assassination. From Charlie being a time traveler who attended a secret “X-Men school” for gifted kids, to Brigitte Macron (and Michelle Obama) secretly being men, Harvard as a Mossad base, Frankist cults running the world, the Bolshevik Revolution, 9/11, JFK, fake moon landings, dinosaurs being “fake and gay,” and the infamous Egyptian planes surveillance plot... we break it all down.

Is this audience capture on steroids? AI-induced psychosis? Genuine belief amplified by massive Patreon money ($200k+/month)? Or just the most entertaining grift in conservative media right now? We plausibility-check where things aren’t totally insane (spy recruitment on campuses is real!), laugh at the absurdity, and explore why her follower count exploded in 2025.

You can find Simone’s Reality Fabricator scenario in which you experience a world as Candace Owens where all her conspiracy theories are real here: https://rfab.ai/share/adventure/youre-candace-owens-and-all-your-conspiracy-theori

Simone outlined this episode, so the notes (and some text screenshots) follow and the transcript can be found after. :)The Candice bot: https://rfab.ai/share/adventure/youre-candace-owens-and-all-your-conspiracy-theori RFab is finally mostly stable:

https://rfab.ai/

Our Substack: https://basedcamppodcast.substack.com/

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/SimoneAndMalcolmCollins

Discord: https://discord.com/invite/EGFRjwwS92

The School: https://parrhesia.io/student-signup

App to talk with kids:

https://wizling.ai/

Episode Notes

Candace Owens has gone so off the reservation that we’ve got to talk about it.

The latest from Candace Owens is that she claims he’s a time traveler based on joking, flirty texts he sent her.

Writes Cinema Shogun on X: Candace Owens is now saying that Charlie Kirk was marked since a child because he had special powers. She thinks he could possibly see into the future. And claims he went to a secret school for kids with gifted abilities like the X-Men. That’s where we’re at folks.

* He posts a clip of her talking about this followed by the X-men intro—love it

I had not realized how far it had gotten.

And yet Candace Owens has a huge following:

* 7.5M followers on X

* For scale:

* Brett Cooper—also part of the Daily Wire cinematic universe—has 538.8K

* Ben Shapiro has 8M

* Asmongold has 1.2M

* Elon Musk has 2342.5M

* Donald Trump has 109.3M

* Hasan Piker has 1.6M

* Greta Thunberg has 5.1M

* 5.74M subscribers on YouTube

* Ben Shapiro has 7.13M

* Brett Cooper (who split off from Daily Wire __ after Candace Owens) has 1.68M

* Asmongold has 4.31M

* Hasan Piker has 1.77M

* 11.8K members on Patreon

* Her membership starts at $20/month, so minimally she’ making 20*11,860= $237,200/month.

* Minimal tiers allows people to: “Submit questions and comments to have answered/discussed in the final segment of “A Shot In the Dark”. This will be the only pool of questions selected from.”

So I decided to explore:

* What exactly Candace Owens is claiming

* Whether her apparent psychosis is AI psychosis, audience-driven psychosis, good ol’ fashioned psychosis, or a mix

* What role her audience plays: Are they egging her on for entertainment, intentionally worsening her psychosis? Do they believe what she’s saying?

Candace Owens’ Claims

The Antisemetic Theories

I think these may be the most important, as I think they lead to a surge in support (as antisemitism is on the rise and her expression of it is uniquely entertaining)

* Owens has alleged that Jews founded Israel as part of a “cult” linked to the Frankist sect, involved in crimes against Christians during Passover.

* She has claimed Jews orchestrated the Bolshevik Revolution to exterminate Christians, that Harvard University serves as a Mossad base, that Israel was behind the 9/11 attacks, and that the Holocaust is exaggerated or fabricated (calling Elie Wiesel a “liar”).

* She has also suggested critics of Israel fear for their lives and that Jews assassinated JFK. These claims have been labeled as promoting antisemitic tropes.

The Transgender Conspiracies

* I knew about the Macron conspiracies:

* That Brigitte Macron, France’s first lady, was born male (named Jean-Michel Trogneux, her brother’s name), leading to a 2025 defamation lawsuit from the Macrons.

* Side note that she also claims the Macrons:

* Are plotting her assassination

* are complicit in Charlie Kirk’s murder (via French involvement in global conspiracies)

* What I did NOT know was that she made similar baseless allegations about other women like Michelle Obama and Kamala Harris, suggesting these are part of a broader pattern where powerful women’s achievements “defy traditional norms.

The Fake and Gay Series

She has referred to some things as “fake and gay” though sadly in this case “gay” is meant as a slang pejorative and not an additional conspiracy about gay men conspiring to do things, which would have been entertaining.

Moon Landing

Owens has described the Apollo moon landings as “fake and gay,” hosting conspiracy theorist Bart Sibrel on her podcast to promote the idea that they were staged (possibly by Stanley Kubrick). She later clarified on Bill Maher’s podcast that she doesn’t care enough about the topic to fully endorse it as a hoax

Dinosaurs

She has called dinosaurs “fake and gay” and suggested the moon landing denial ties into broader skepticism of official narratives. Owens has also promoted Gnostic-inspired ideas, viewing certain events (like Kirk’s assassination) through a lens of ancient heresies where hidden knowledge reveals elite control

Social and Political Conspiracies

She has called dinosaurs “fake and gay” and suggested the moon landing denial ties into broader skepticism of official narratives. Owens has also promoted Gnostic-inspired ideas, viewing certain events (like Kirk’s assassination) through a lens of ancient heresies where hidden knowledge reveals elite control

The Charlie Kirk Conspiracies

* The Assassination Plot

* Owens alleged Kirk was shot from below the stage, with the assassin escaping through tunnels.

* She tied the killing to Israel (suggesting Mossad involvement due to Kirk’s shifting views on Israel), TPUSA insiders, American Israel supporters, the French military, and evangelical churches.

* She also linked it to Kirk’s trip to Asia and claimed it was part of a larger cover-up, dismissing debunking reports as Mossad propaganda.

* The Erika Kirk component

* Owens insists she is not implicating Erika Kirk in Charlie Kirk’s murder; she more broadly implies that TPUSA may be involved

* Some of her fans have more explicitly accused Erika Kirk

* The Egyptian planes component

* Owens has claimed that Egyptian military or surveillance aircraft (specifically identifying planes like SU-BTT and SU-BND via flight-tracking data from sources such as ADS-B Exchange) were repeatedly tracking or overlapping with the locations of Erika Kirk (Charlie’s widow and current TPUSA CEO), and to a lesser extent Charlie himself, over several years.

* On the day of the assassination (September 10, 2025, at Utah Valley University in Provo, Utah), Owens claimed at least one (or both) of these Egyptian planes was present or “powered on” at Provo Airport. She said one took off shortly after, while the other remained grounded; passengers allegedly received rental cars (possibly linked to Duncan Aviation), implying operatives or foreign entities on the ground.

* She has referenced tips (including from unnamed “federal agents”) warning her to stop discussing the planes, and alleged TPUSA pressured her to drop it, adding to her narrative of cover-up.

* X-Men style school for gifted children:

* Owens claimed Kirk was “marked” as a child due to exceptional abilities (e.g., off-the-charts test scores, potential telekinesis or foresight). She alleged agents wanted to drug him for behavioral issues, but his mother refused, leading to his placement in a special “school for the gifted” akin to the X-Men academy (possibly referring to programs like GATE or schools such as Quest Academy in Illinois). Owens said he was monitored by government agents his whole life, required security early on, and that she herself was recruited for a similar program but “pretended to be an idiot” to escape. Critics note Kirk attended public schools like Wheeling High School and did not graduate college, contradicting the elite “X-Men” narrative.

* To be fair, arguably school teachers are government agents

* And it’s super common for teachers / school administrators to insinuate to parents that they should medicate their kids (likely doubly so for smart, energetic young boys)

* I think both of us were in GATE and it was not even remotely remarkable

* Time traveler claim:

* Owens stated it is an “absolute fact” that Kirk believed he was a time traveler, based on private text messages where he allegedly said he “had to find her” and knew he would die young to “change outcomes.” She speculated this tied into the CIA’s “Project Looking Glass,” a conspiracy theory about a time-viewing device from ancient Sumeria linked to the Mandela Effect (e.g., false collective memories like a missing cornucopia in the Fruit of the Loom logo). Owens suggested Kirk could see the future and was “targeted by powerful forces” because of it.

* So with this we have the texts he sent her, which explain the time traveler part

* But where did she get the impression Charlie thought he would die young?

* In her January 14, 2026 podcast episode titled “PROJECT LOOKING GLASS: How Did Charlie Know He Was Going To Die?” (episode 290 of her Candace show), Owens explicitly states that Kirk repeatedly told her he was a time traveler and expressed foreknowledge of dying young. She claims he tied this to his work with TPUSA, saying things like:

* From the beginning of TPUSA, he “knew in his gut that [he] might get wiped out at any time” and dreamed about it frequently.

* He was “not sure if [he] would live to see the end of this revolution” and believed Owens was the person meant to “finish the fight” after him.

* He predicted his death would be a “tragic event” connected to the organization, and that he would die young as part of a larger mission or predetermined outcome.

* Owens has referenced and reportedly shown screenshots of these text exchanges on her show (or in related discussions), describing them as proof that Kirk “knew he was going to die young” and viewed it as necessary to “change outcomes” or timelines. She claims she initially dismissed these as casual or joking remarks (including the time traveler bit, where he said he “had to find” her), but reinterpreted them after his September 2025 assassination as evidence of genuine foresight—possibly linked to conspiracy theories like the CIA’s “Project Looking Glass” (a supposed time-viewing technology).

Candace Owens’ Audience

Do her fans believe what she’s saying?

* Some posts suggest so

* For example, Lori Love, who has over 19K followers on X, defended Owens’ time traveler claims by pointing to Candace Owens sharing of the text exchange screenshot, writing: “Candace claims Charlie Kirk was a time traveler. She’s insane! She’s psychotic!” Correction: Charlie Kirk said he was a time traveler.

* BTW Lori Love describes herself as: “Freelance Graphic Designer ✨ Communications ✍🏼 Politics & Culture - America First 🇺🇸 End Government Tyranny ✝️ Christ is the way, the truth, and the life”

Are her fans trolling her and egging her on?

Yes, and not just her fans.

The Daily Wire trolls her too, e.g. by making fake Egyptian Air advertisements riffing on her Egyptian planes conspiracy.

She also encourages them to do so, with posts like “Question for “conspiracy theorists”, only. What’s the real reason the deep state is suddenly obsessed with seizing Greenland?”

Candace Owens’ Psychosis

In favor of AI psychosis

2025 was the first year when AI psychosis arose

HOWEVER, Owens was known for being a conspiracy theorist from 2018 onward:

* Reporting describes her as a “pro‑Trump conspiracy theorist” whose rise in right‑wing media was tied to claims such as suggesting that mail bombs sent to Trump critics in October 2018 were actually a left‑wing “false flag,” a claim she deleted after the suspect was identified as a Trump supporter.

* By 2020, she was publicly questioning official Covid‑19 death figures and attacking Bill Gates as a “vaccine criminal,” part of broader anti‑vaccine and pandemic‑related conspiracy rhetoric.

In favor of Fan-Driven Psychosis

Candace got big because of Charlie Kirk’s assassination.

* 2019: 0.6M; 2020: 0.9M; 2021: 1.2M subscribers (steady early growth).

* 2022: 1.4M; 2023: 1.5M; 2024: 1.52M subscribers (moderate growth).

* 2025: about 5.6M subscribers, reflecting rapid expansion documented by multiple analytics snapshots and fact‑checking of her social‑media footprint

In favor of Normal Psychosis

There is no reliable public evidence that Candace Owens has family members with psychosis or schizophrenia, and she has not disclosed such a family history in credible biographical or news sources.

THAT SAID: She seems to have a general tendency to think in a schizo manner that stems back to her early career, well before she became really famous or before AI hit the scene:

* In 2016, during the “Social Autopsy” controversy and her entry into Gamergate circles, Owens blamed a progressive gamer and “the Left” for doxxing her despite scant evidence, an early example of attributing coordinated hidden malice without substantiation.

Episode Transcript

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] But actually this makes way more sense.

Oh, no. Oh God. Are is this just gonna be where like I tell you Candace o’s conspiracy theory and you’re like, well, but that’s right, Simone.

So you’re not gonna respond to the nine 11, the, Bolshevik Revolution claim. The Harvard University is Mossad base. Just, we’re just putting it out there. First

Malcolm Collins: of all, Harvard University could be a masad base. That would not be like a crazy thing. You know what?

Simone Collins: No, I don’t want your response.

We’re just gonna go. No, hold on. No. We need a plausibility check. No. Whatcha doing? I’m trying to say she’s psychotic and you’re like,

Malcolm Collins: me too. Me too. Do, no, I’m I you, it’s important that you point out where her things aren’t that crazy. Okay. so first of all spy operations have repeatedly throughout history, used university campuses, specific university campuses Yeah.

For recruiting new assets and agents.

I wanna talk about the word conspiracy theorist you’re using here. Okay. Yeah.

Okay, fair.

Would you like to know [00:01:00] more?

Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I am so excited to be speaking with you today because Candace Owens has gone off the reservation so much that I think we need to talk about it.

Malcolm Collins: What was the

Simone Collins: recent

Malcolm Collins: one you were telling me this morning and I was like, what the, she thought that Charlie Kirk was trained at a school like for gifted children, like in the X-Men with special telepathic power.

Well, first, the

Simone Collins: first thing that like really caught my attention was that she, she claimed that Charlie Kirk was a time traveler based on basically a, a joking flirty text that he sent to her where she texted him, I’m an alien frowny face. And he responded, I think I’m a time traveler. This is my home, but I think you found me.

And time traveled with me. And she took that and just ran with it. This wasn’t like, you know, she’s just gonna like, I’m gonna take things hard, literally. And, someone else put it better than I did. Right. With regard to the X-Men thing cinnamon Shogun on X wrote Candace Owens is now [00:02:00] saying that Charlie Kirk has, was marked since a child because he has special powers she thinks he could possibly see into the future, and claims he went to a secret school for kids with gifted abilities like the X-Men.

That’s where we’re at, folks. And he posts a clip of her talking about this followed by the X-Men intro, which, which I absolutely love.

Speaker 11: Charlie may have been marked since he was a child. We’ve discussed these gait programs that they have in school, and I just think on the basis of what he told me, that when he was really young, they wanted to drug him, but his mother said no and he was really grateful for that, and instead they decided that they could send him to this X-Men School.

That’s the best way I can describe it. I would certainly, by the way, for you Internets, I’d like to find out which school, Charlie. Had to attend. So he was pulled out of the regular school he was attending and he had to go to some special school for the gifted like he was next [00:03:00] man.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, I mean, I love

Malcolm Collins: the, actually going into this. You, you went over this with me this morning. I’m like, Simone, you have multiple times. Recently told me something crazy.

Candace Owens said, yeah. That you were agha at Yeah. We need to make an episode on all of her because her her worldview, I wanna live in her mind. Yeah. It must be the craziest world. Yeah. She just, and, and actually your whole thesis was this. Because you wanted to find out what kind of crazy was she? Yes.

Was she like audience captured? Was she like having genuine psychosis? Yeah. What

Simone Collins: flavor of psychosis does she have? Is this like old school psychosis? Is this audio audience capture psychosis or is this AI induced psychosis? And so what we’re gonna do in this episode is we are going to go through her conspiracy theories and we’re gonna look at, you know, has her audience kind of egged this on, and then we’re gonna, we’re [00:04:00] gonna come to a conclusion.

What, what, like it, or is she just like, maxing isn’t all of them it, because it, I mean, we’re gonna go into it though, but I just, I wanna point out though. Just how wild it is. Before I even give you the full depth of all of her conspiracy theories, just how, how many followers she has. So on X she has 7.5 million followers.

And for scale, Rhett Cooper, who’s also part of like the daily Wire cinematic universe, and also someone who left The Daily Wire, though more recently she, compared to Candace Owens, 7.5 million has just 536,800. Ben Shapiro has 8 million, so only 500,000 more than Candace Owens. Who’s, who’s more of an up and comer than, you know, like she’s newer to the scene than Ben Shapiro, which she, she’s

Malcolm Collins: moneyed interest backing her like he does.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I know, right? So this is like really impressive. She’s just a crazy person. [00:05:00] Yeah. Asma Gold has 1.2 million. Elon Musk has. Well, I think what. Sorry, like 242.5 million. Donald Trump, 109 million Hassan Piker, 1.6 million. Greta Thunberg, 5.1 million. So just to give you kind of like a landscape, Candace Owens is at the higher end.

She’s obviously not at like Donald Trump or Elon Musk level, but she’s above Asman Gold, just a tiny bit below Ben Shapiro on YouTube. She has 5.74 million subscribers. Ben Shapiro Shapiro has 7.13 million. Brett Cooper who only left the Daily wear fairly recently has just 1.68 million. Mond Gold has 4.3, so Candace Owens has more subscribers on YouTube than Aspen Gold.

Even though like Aspen Gold, I think speaks for the typical centrist American who’s online, whereas Candace Owens speaks to like. Someone wearing a tinfoil hat. And, but this is

Malcolm Collins: the thing, this, the, the, the, the, the scale and scope of her [00:06:00] conspiracy that we get it to them. These are not like us dunking on Candace Owens for like being wrong.

Like, it’s not even, like, these aren’t even things worth like debunking or differences of political opinion. Charlie Kirk was not a times traveler raised with special power. So that’s what you think.

Simone Collins: I mean, who were we to say? But we are gonna go into these No, no, no,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, no, no, no. Actually, I know we can joke about this, but the point that I’m making here is, this is not about us saying we have political differences with Candace Owens.

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. This is, she, she’s

Simone Collins: just, she is unhinged and yet even on Patreon, she has 11.8 K members and her membership starts at $20 per month. Though it also that I think that it’s 50 and then 75. But this is what I

Malcolm Collins: love about Candace Owens. Oh, no. I wanna

Simone Collins: point out that, that the ec, the unit economics of that work out to $237,200 per month.

Wow. Per month. Just from Patreon. That’s not including all of her, [00:07:00] her sponsorships, her YouTube revenue everything else that she gets. Like she’s making tons of, like, people are spending a lot of money. And the only reason they’re paying for that for the min, and this is assuming she gets only minimum to your payers.

And what you get for that is just the ability to quote, submit questions and comments to have answered or discussed in the final segment of a shot in the dark. This will be the only pool of questions selected from, and I feel like. Again, this is, this is gonna come in later as we, as we try to figure out what is driving her psychosis.

I almost feel like a, a, a very large number of those people do not believe at all in what she’s saying. They just want to make her more crazy and they’re paying $20 a month to be able to, to give her questions and comments that she has to read so that they can drive her more crazy. I,

Malcolm Collins: I, this is the thing about Candace Owens and her conspiracy.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Other, other people will pick up on [00:08:00] like preexisting conspiracy theories mm-hmm. And expand them. Uhhuh, Candace Owens invents and generates entirely new and intricate strains of conspiracy theory. And it may be

Simone Collins: that this is a genre of entertainment that people very much like and enjoy and are willing to pay for.

Malcolm Collins: People say our show is conspiracy theories, no culture, but the West blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh my God.

Simone Collins: Is she like the new Charles Dickens? ‘cause Charles Dickens has changed. You know, he serialized his books and then people would write into him and be like, you can’t kill this character.

Like, this has to happen. And he’s changed his plots because people have complained. Like he, he was the, the OG person subject to moderate amounts at least of audience capture. So

Malcolm Collins: if he lived today, all of his characters would be gay and trans. They, they’d be like,

Simone Collins: well, it depends on his audience. Right. I mean, Candace Owens is an example of like conservative Christian conspiracy theorist audience capture or like, I don’t know, troll audience capture.

Well, I think she, in her, in her, in her

Malcolm Collins: extended fiction universe, the, the president Macron’s wife with a [00:09:00] man.

Simone Collins: So let’s, let’s just go, no, no, no. Let’s don’t jump the shark here. Let’s go through her claims one by one and we, we can actually, let’s start with the anti-Semitic ones. And I think this is really important ‘cause I think this might have been.

Something that really helped her get started even before the viron helped her get started. Antisemitism. Well, and the thing is I think there’s, there, her anti-Semitic theories may be among the most important because I think they led to a surge of support for her. Because anti-Semitism is totally on the rise.

We’ve gotten bumps when we post anti-Semitic content, so I could see how you would be even at, at the very least, subconsciously motivated to lean into anti-Semitic content. And her unique flavor of anti-Semitism, I think really feeds into something that the anti-Semitic, like fans of the internet extra like, because there’s a huge correlation between someone being anti-Semitic and very openly and enthusiastically anti-Semitic online, and then also wanting to [00:10:00] conflate Jews with conspiracy theories and Candace like.

Improv’s conspiracy. She’s like the jazz master of, of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

Malcolm Collins: And I gotta point out here before you go further, we actually haven’t done any actually anti-Semitic videos, but we will sometimes intentionally try to make title cards, make it look as if the video is gonna be anti-Semitic, because I know it will do better if the average YouTube watcher thinks they’re about to watch something antisemitic.

But

Simone Collins: a lot of the comments that we get when they are anti-Semitic, it’s like, well, the, the JOO or the, the like juice emoji are commenters are anti-Semitic. Yeah. Well, no, but not just that they’re anti-Semitic. The, the correlation between someone who makes an anti-Semitic comment who also is making a comment about Jews doing conspiracies, it is like 80%, 80% is gonna say something anti-Semitic.

They’re also gonna say something conspiratorial. Candace Owens is like, oh, so here’s what some of the things she said. No, actually,

Malcolm Collins: hold on. I just had a realization what, judaism is almost like [00:11:00] the Freemasons, were still a religion, you know, like all the, the conspiracy theories, like believe the Freemasons, like do this and do that and do that.

Yeah. Like the homework, the, the Simpson song. Yeah. Just like was was, was Judaism. It’s like they just found an actual group of people and ascribed it all to them.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. No, totally. And, and they love that. And that’s, I think that’s one of the though Charlie Kirk was the major inflection point for her.

The anti-Semitic stuff is like a very big engine for anyone in terms of growth, especially if they feed into conspiracy theories. So this is crucial in terms of what she’s actually argued with her anti-Semitic conspiracy theorizing. She has alleged that Jews founded Israel as part of a cult linked to Frankest, the Frankest sect.

She is, she’s the one who’s all about the Frankest sect. Who are the frankest? What’s, what’s the lore here? I haven’t, so she said that they were involved in crimes against Christians during Passover. I’ve not heard of Frankest from anyone but her and every time I try to [00:12:00] listen to her talk about it, I get real confused.

I don’t know if it’s because of my feminized brain being so stupid. You’ll, you’ll come to understand that Candace also realizes that women are not very smart, and if women aren’t successful positions, it’s probably because they’re really men. But yeah, I, I don’t. Quite understand. Okay. Hold on. I’ll

Malcolm Collins: read, I’ll read a explanation of who she thinks they are.

Okay. Okay. The Frank is followers of the 18th century figure. Jacob Frank represented a secretive, a heretical cult that she describes as the preferred religion of the elites. She portrays them as, wait, but then how does this, how can

Simone Collins: this have to do with crimes against Christians during

Malcolm Collins: Passover? Wait, wait, we’ll get there.

Okay. She describes them as devil worshipers who practice deception, inversion of morals and extreme transgressions, including PDA files incest and ritualistic crimes as part of their religious beliefs. Owens claims Frank, him is an offshoot or a continuation of [00:13:00] Sabom from the early false Messiah, Sabota Zevi.

Oh.

That face is me realizing that I got balsam ta confused with Shabot Levy, two figures who I think are bad figures from Jewish history. , But Jews would not think that Balsam TA was as bad as Shabot levy. , And so I was very embarrassed and then I was trying to remember if I had put that episode live yet, or if I had time to fix it, and I did not have time to fix it.

Malcolm Collins: But emphasizes it’s. Antinomian anti law nature where followers deliberately violate moral religious norms to achieve some form of spiritual elevation of power. I just realized I got, you can

Simone Collins: understand how this just flies right over my

Malcolm Collins: head, right. Knowing me. Yeah. Well, it actually makes sense.

So Shatai Levy really did practice those things. Mm-hmm. So, so you’re just

Simone Collins: saying Candace Owens is right about everything. What about this? She claimed that Jews orchestrated the BOLs Bolshevik Revolution to exterminate [00:14:00] Christians and that Harvard University serves as a Mossad base, and that Israel was behind nine 11 and that the Holocaust was exaggerated or fabricated.

So sh

Malcolm Collins: she has repeatedly stated that the frankest are not true Jews, but imposters who reject mainstream Judaism, which would be the case if they were followers of Zite Levy. Okay. And were excommunicated by rabbinical authorities. Instead they allegedly infiltrate other faiths such as Catholicism through false conversions to undermine or destroy Christian societies and empires.

Well then why would she

Simone Collins: blame Israel for stuff? Unless Israel has actually infiltrated, or sorry, unless this sect has, the frankest has have successfully infiltrated all of like

Malcolm Collins: Well, okay, so if Frankest our descendants from Saboa Levy mm-hmm. It would be a branch from Judaism, but it would be a inversion of Judaism.

Like literally what she’s appetite Lieby believed was that you needed to invert all the laws of Judaism because we were in the Messianic period. And so that meant that morality had become inverted. Mm-hmm. I actually got this wrong, I think on yesterday’s video in editing. I thought it was [00:15:00] SEM who did that,

Simone Collins: and two people at least were like, you got the wrong guy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Confused him. Thanks guys. You guys are, you, you always fact check us and we really appreciate that fact.

Malcolm Collins: Check us. I did not look it up and I was being stupid. Two very important figures from Jewish history around the same period. We’re

Simone Collins: so bad with names.

But actually this makes way more sense.

Oh, no. Oh God. Are is this just gonna be where like I tell you Candace o’s conspiracy theory and you’re like, well, but that’s right, Simone.

Malcolm Collins: No, I’m not saying it makes, but what I’m saying is it’s a, it’s a coherent worldview. Okay. The idea. So, okay. So she’s a good spinner of conspiracy lore. Okay, so for people who don’t know, this is actually probably pretty important.

There was a period where around 40 to 30% of the Jewish community believed the Messiah had come. It was somebody named she Levy. He ended up converting to Islam. That doesn’t really matter, but he did believe in rule inversion. And the other thing that he was totally not above is attempting to influence other groups and stuff like that.

Like after the demoralization that came was [00:16:00] sabotage DE’s conversion into, islam. Yes. Islam missed Islam. You could say that his faction got really demoralized and they didn’t just get demoralized. It is true, absolutely true that portions of the factions that followed him went sort of underground because they were too embarrassed to admit that they still practiced some of these things from this guy who turned out to be a fraud who betrayed everyone.

And he’s the guy who I think is like the actual antichrist because he a complete inversion of Jesus. In terms of everything that he did. You can watch our track series on that. But from Candace Owen’s perspective, could some of these secret groups still exist and have power? Yeah, because she Levy did associate with groups that did have power.

Mm-hmm. Like conceivably, I can see how this conspiracy works in somebody’s mind. I don’t think it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s real more, but I would say is that if you’re looking, because I’ve always had a problem with this, where do you get like actual satanist from that makes no sense. Like. He’s the bad guy. Like, why are you following the [00:17:00] guy who in the book is like, there isn’t a, I remember when I was a kid, I asked my parents this once, I was like, why is anyone a satanist when we know like by the text he’s the bad guy, right?

I mean, the the real answer is, is that real world Satanists don’t actually worship Satan. They just say that they’re satanist to piss off Christians and then Yeah, they trolls. Yeah. But, but there is an actual real founded in reality, theological reason from reality inversion. If you believe in the metaphysics of Shabot Levy

Okay, so what I pulled up only brought up Candace’s Owens perception of this event. It didn’t bring up the real event that happened. And , I’m a little scared. I, yeah, I think, I think some fans are gonna think, Malcolm, you’re gonna crash out over this. I’m not gonna crash out. We’ll just go into it., It’s not like some became Catholics.

They all became Catholics. So let’s go into this. So Jacob Frank, after Shabot Levy was born 60 years later in the Ukraine, he claimed to be the [00:18:00] spiritual successor or reincarnation of Zevi. And also the biblical patriarch Jacob. He took the Antinomian idea much further. This is the idea that you should invert morality.

He taught that all existing religious laws, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim were created by evil forces and must be deliberately broken to reach. The ultimate redemption. His followers engaged in ritualized sexual transgressions, documented orgies, partner swapping, and , sources mentioned incest. The most famous incident was in 1756 in Laquon, where they were allegedly caught dancing around a semi-naked woman representing the AYA or the divine female presence after being persecuted by Jewish and Christian authorities. Frank persuaded several thousand followers, several thousand followers, to undergo a mass conversion to Catholicism. But it’s very clear that they kept their secret beliefs and still worshiped this individual, , while practicing OMI [00:19:00] idealists.

Now this is where I was like, wait, what? Like, ‘cause I thought the Catholic thing, you know, everyone’s always like, oh, it’s a Catholic’s, a Jews, the Catholic’s, a Jews, , none of the frankest. Stage Jews, none of them stage Jews, they are 100% in the Catholic church. That is the, the historical reality of this, if this is a conspiracy theory, it is a conspiracy theory about Catholicism.

Now I’m gonna argue , it’s not as bad as it sounds on the surf. It’s pretty bad, but it’s not as bad as it sounds on the surface. So let’s go a bit deeper here, because I was like, wait, this doesn’t make any sense. All of these people were born Jews, like in Jewish communities of like the 17 hundreds.

You don’t just randomly all become Catholics. , So I was trying to figure out what was going on here. You know, expressing doubt, right? And so, the reason it apparently worked is they say it’s a mix of strategic survival, theological beliefs and opportunism notice a sincere, , adoption of Catholic practices.

So they were facing incredibly heavy, , prosecution from Jewish authorities. So Frank’s teachings were extremely heretical, specifically to Jews. Obviously, if you’re creating an anti Judaism, [00:20:00] that would be heretical mostly to Jews. Because he promoted redemption through sin, deliberately breaking Jewish laws, including sexual taboos like orgi and incense as a mystical path.

, And so the Jewish community was obviously very, very angry at him and he wasn’t gonna be easily, really re accepted into this community with any sort of authority. So to escape this, Frank and his group turned to Catholic bishops and nobles for shelters. They cleverly, , told the church what they wanted to hear, that they rejected the Talmud, which Christians often criticized.

But accepted kabbalistic texts and claimed that those supported ideas like the Trinity, although they secretly meant their own Messiah, not Jesus, this positioned them as potential allies against Talmudic Judaism. And if anyone knows my thoughts on kabbalistic texts, obviously I am not a fan of this guy.

, So Frank’s own theology made. Conversion, a required step. Frank claimed divine revelations saying Christianity, specifically Catholicism was a temporary transitional stage to the future Messianic religion. He [00:21:00] would reveal it was part of descending into the kabbalistic symbol for, , Christianity and the Christian world as a necessary humiliation, redemption path.

So basically, if you’re being the opposite of a Jew and you need to go through this humiliation ritual or like opposite. Ritual Catholicism made sense to him. And so baptism was famed as a ritual act to reach higher spiritual levels. But specifically like a sinful ritual act like baptism was to him, like an orgy was to him.

, And more than that, the conversion opened doors. Paulette Catholic Nobles acted as grandparents to them, gave them names, titles, and integration into the upper gentry. . Which is crazy. , What’s interesting here is that, , this was all mostly fake from, apparently we know this from historical documents.

A classic , crypto religious movement, IE secret religious movement like the muranos in Spain centuries earlier, they kept secretly referring to Frank as their holy master. , They continued the omim [00:22:00] practices in private, , and they intermarried only among themselves to wait for the real religion to be revealed.

, The church grew suspicious and Frank was arrested in 1760 for feign conversion and heresy in prison 13 years later. So what’s interesting is after he disappeared, , we see mentions of people, , practicing things tied to this. , I think it was what I was looking at, like all the way until the late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds.

And, , v very interesting. , The being adopted into the upper ranks is sort of , a approving that Jew, like a large section of Jews could, could join in them like that. That’s why they were so excited and so incredulous, , about this. . So, yeah. , But the Pope did appear to be suspicious from the start.

, Papal nuncio, Polish primates were suspicious. , No frankish became priests, bishops or high officials in the church. So to say that this is like carried into the Catholic church, I think not, but the point I’d make is if, if the conspiracy is anywhere, it’s within the Catholic Church, not Jews.

The [00:23:00] Jews apparently hated the, for obvious reasons, hated these people.

Malcolm Collins: continue.

Okay.

Simone Collins: So you’re not gonna respond to the nine 11, the, the Bolshevik Revolution claim. The Harvard University is Mossad base. Just, we’re just putting it out there. First

Malcolm Collins: of all, Harvard University could be a masad base. That would not be like a crazy thing. You know what?

Simone Collins: No, I don’t want your response.

We’re just gonna go. No, hold on. No. We need a plausibility check. No. Whatcha doing? I’m trying to say she’s psychotic and you’re like,

Malcolm Collins: me too. Me too. Do, no, I’m I you, it’s important that you point out where her things aren’t that crazy. Okay. Can you just say something like Harvard University would actually make an excellent, so first of all spy operations have repeatedly throughout history, used university campuses, specific university campuses Yeah.

For recruiting new assets and agents. Yeah. You want

Simone Collins: competence. The, you get it there. Well, it’s not just

Malcolm Collins: competence, but it’s a good time on somebody’s life to get you know, a blackmail on [00:24:00] them. Yeah. They’re, they’re typically more open to like, you know, if you’re a young person at college, they’re like, look, we’ll help you get a few early good jobs.

You just owe us this later. Mm-hmm. Like it’s a very easy place to do that. Moad is the most competent spy craft operation on the planet Earth. No. Yeah. So recruit from even people will argue against that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So that they would have an operation set up at Harvard. Seems I, I’d almost think it would be unlikely that there isn’t some sort of moad recruiting operation at Harvard.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Video.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean the FBI recruited at my college, but that’s just ‘cause we were based in DC Okay. She, she also on the, on the Jew front, we, we gotta keep going. There’s a lot more suggested that critics of Israel fear for their lives and that Jews assassinated JFK. And well, the JFK one actually has a lot

Malcolm Collins: of backing to it,

Simone Collins: so I thought everyone said it was like the mafia, the Italian No, no, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: It was the mafia probably. But what’s important to note is that when [00:25:00] they finally released all of the JFK files and, and we’ve gotten the, like they did, they finally did. I thought they did. Yeah. They released a lot of them. The, the one thing that is censored consistently throughout all of them, because I, I forget how we know this, but it’s anything tied to Israel.

Um, And apparently there was a lot tied to Israel in those files.

Now what I think actually happened is Israel was being stupid and didn’t understand how that was gonna look. And so they were just like, well, because we do a lot of joint spycraft operations and stuff like that. Oh. And so they were probably like, Hey, this is like, proprietary information for us, Israel, and we did these joint operations thinking they would never get out to the public.

And so, do not. Mention our name in this. And so the guy at the desk was like, okay, cross out Israel. It’s gonna make you guys look guilty as sin, but I’m crossing it out.

Okay, so I looked back into this one to try to understand why it was all crossed out, that when it had to tie to Israel and it was actually a blanket cross out tied to something called sources and methods. Meaning anything that [00:26:00] had to do with how we got intelligence because obviously you don’t want to show sources was crossed out and we do so much cross intelligence was Israel that it made it look like Israel was super tied to this.

And the reason we know it’s Israel is because the 2025 message. Unblocked all the Israel mentions, and then so people were able to see when that dropped, , that Israel had just been crossed out a ton , in former stuff, but everywhere had been crossed out was very innocuous.

Malcolm Collins: Now who do I think actually killed JFK? I think it was a breakout faction within the FBI that was attempting to maintain power.

This is I can see that. Yeah. I could do a d different episode on that, but I actually think that there’s a lot of evidence that there was at the time portions of the FBI that essentially began to operate without government supervision. And the people in it thought that they were doing what was right for America and thought that any thing that they did was, was okay to do because they’re long-term doing it for America.

And so I think it was an FBI operation and not, not like the mainstream FBI, but like a branch of it. But anyway, you’re getting into Malcolm [00:27:00] Conspiracy here.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, we can do the, if, if you guys want Malcolm’s Conspiracy Corner we can, we can do that. Just comment below. Let’s get to the transgender, the conspiracies, because I don’t think Stop.

We’re gonna keep going. We’re gonna do Malcolm Conspiracy Corner if people want it, save it. But. Let’s get to the transgender stuff. ‘cause you started with referring to Macron. I didn’t know it was just Macron. So we knew about the Macron conspiracy. Okay. Specifically for those uninitiated that Bridgette, Bridget Macron, who’s France’s, first Lady Emmanuel Macron’s wife.

They have a weird enough relationship as it was. She was his school teacher. So it, it was already weird people. We didn’t need to make it weirder, but she alleges that that Tte was born male. That her name was Jean-Michel Tru Tru New, but that’s her brother’s name. So there there is one. It’s just her brother.

And this led to a, a defamation lawsuit that was filed last year. I think it’s still going on. But it [00:28:00] wasn’t oh, it also just with Macron, she, she also thinks that they’re plotting her assassination. And that they are complicit in Charlie Kirk’s murder. But that’s just via French involvement in global conspiracies.

Not like they. Specifically had it out for Charlie Kirk, but here’s the thing that I didn’t know about her whole transgender stuff, is that she has made similar baseless allegations about other women like Michelle Obama and Kamala Harris suggesting that this is part of this broader and pattern where powerful women’s achievements.

Defy traditional norms. I just, I’ve gotta have,

Malcolm Collins: she’s like, awesome powers. I’ve gotta put that scene here.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Speaker 2: This is my mother. Mrs. Exposition, how do stand? Thank God, man. What have you done?

Speaker 3: That’s not your mother. It’s a man baby. Yeah, yeah. Come on. Why this come?

Yeah. Hold on. Hold on [00:29:00] one second. My mother. Oh. Oh, mother, are you?

Malcolm Collins: No, literally, literally, I swear to God. She’s mad, man. No, it’s like, it’s like the lawsuit comes out, right? And they’re like, no, this is actually a woman. And, and of course she’s like,

Speaker 3: You have a lot of explaining to do. I’m sorry, basil. I thought she was a man. Damn it man. You are talking about my mother. Well, you have to admit she is rather Manish Austin. Well, no offense, but if that is a woman, it does look like she was beaten with an ugly stick. What

Speaker: really, Austin?

Malcolm Collins: no sense.

She did look rather mad. Pull off

Simone Collins: the wig, actually.

What was even crazier is watching this next scene in the world of trans normalization and then imagining a based remake of Austin Powers where he has a similar mix up and they have to explain to him that this is normal [00:30:00] now.

Speaker 4: Can I get you a drink, Mr. Powell? .

Speaker 5: Wait, I’ve got an idea.

Speaker 4: Austin, why on earth did you hit that woman?

Speaker 6: Right? Let me show you, baby. That ain’t no woman. It’s a man. Man.

Simone Collins: So then there’s the what, what I would like to call the, the fake and gay series. She’s, she’s referred to some things as it’s just fake and gay. But sadly in this case, gay just, it means like the, the sort of pejorative slang and not actually gay, which would’ve been more fun if she had like some kind of conspiracy around.

For example, she, she describes the Apollo moon landing as a fake and gay, but that’s not about like gay men doing something. She. She was just hosting conspiracy theory. Bart Sebel on her podcast at one point to promote the idea that the Mo Moon landing was staged, possibly by Stanley Kubrick. And then she later clarified on Bill Mayer’s podcast that she didn’t care [00:31:00] enough about the topic to fully endorse it as a hoax, but she’s just like, yeah, moon Landing fake and gay.

But I mean, even Kim Kardashian is like, I mean, this is, I just feel like that’s kind of mainstream. It’s, it’s, it’s flat earthers, but flat earth her, but make it mainstream thought or like attractive woman. Mm-hmm. You know?

Malcolm Collins: No, it’s, it’s, it’s basic and I.

Simone Collins: It’s, it is very basic. It, yeah. It’s the pumpkin spice latte of conspiracy theories.

Moon landing was faked. Yeah. And then dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are also fake and gay. Moon landing and dinosaurs. Yeah. Moon landing dinosaurs. Yeah, she’s, she’s also promoted gnostic inspired ideas being certain events like Kirk’s assassination through this lens of ancient heresies where just, yeah.

But anyway, so, just in more broad, and I think this is where we can just broadly agree with at least one element of it, and that she, she, on the social and political front has called she, she said that like there’s been this what’s the best way to put it? Like con, concerted effort to [00:32:00] disproportionately abort black babies.

And we have 100%. Back that up on our podcast. It is true that that is not a conspiracy, I guess it’s a conspiracy and that Planned Parenthood conspired to have black babies aborted. But it’s not an literal conspiracy set up was to abort black children. So she was right on that one. And I guess you’re right.

Like there, there some of the things here are really well-founded, but let’s go to Charlie Kirk because I mean, I think you and I would probably still agree that Tyler Robinson got a little deranged and, and kill them. You know, I, I don’t, I don’t think we, we believed there was something more going on at this time.

Yeah. But what,

Malcolm Collins: what was going on is so nefarious and bad looking for progressives and the power powers that be. Why would you, why would that be fake?

Simone Collins: Yeah. And also just here’s where Candace Owens really, I, I, I, I wanna, I’m, I’m still trying to work out how she sees this, so maybe you can explain this.

She says that Kirk was shot from below the stage with the assassin assassin escaping through tunnels. But I’ve se I’ve seen the [00:33:00] footage and I think many people have of the shot. It doesn’t look like he was shot from below. She, she tied the killing to Israel, suggesting Mosad involvement due to Kirk’s shifting views on Israel.

And, and she shared this text thread that was leaked because it didn’t look like it, it, it, it wasn’t a text

Malcolm Collins: he was going anti-Israel. He was,

Simone Collins: and, and the text thread that that famously got shared wasn’t one between her and Charlie Kirk, like with the whole time traveling flirtation thing. But instead it was, it was between Charlie Kirk and another member of Turning Points USA, where he was like.

Like he was just fed up with Jewish donors for Well, I mean, we’ve

Malcolm Collins: had episodes like that on our show. Like, it, it’s really frustrating to say something like mildly cr like be like, we should like rethink our military aid. Or like, oh, here’s why people are acting more antisemitic, and then people saying that’s antisemitic.

Mm-hmm.

And you’re like, I didn’t like, what, what’s even the point of ever being nice to a community if you do the, the, [00:34:00] the slightest infraction and, and the you catch

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Biting at you. Right. I, I don’t know

Simone Collins: though, like, I’m also very mercenary, like if someone gives me money, like I, I dance for that, you know?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I I do the same. Right. You know?

Simone Collins: Yeah. You are big Jewish

Malcolm Collins: donors. Yeah. You bought a service, you get the

Simone Collins: service. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I lack Charlie Kirk’s well, whatever. Moral, well, the, the thread

Simone Collins: though, specifically, let me pull it up in this thread. He says, just lost another huge Jewish donor, 2 million a year because we won’t cancel Tucker, I’m thinking of inviting Candace.

Ugh. Jewish donors play into all the stereotypes. I cannot and will not be bullied like this. Leaving me no choice but to leave the pro is real cause to which his colleague, who we don’t see in the screenshot says, please don’t invite Candace. That might feel good short term, but it’s not good long term in my opinion, like all groups are gonna get wide variety of opinions, that nasty, free will thing that God bestowed on us makes life frustrating at times.

And then he talks about after [00:35:00] the dust settles something, something and then it gets cut off. But what Charlie Kirk was experienced was he lost 2 million a year. So to my mercenary thing, I mean, I, I might also falter. If someone stops paying, maybe I might stop doing the thing they’re paying for.

So it’s, I I

Malcolm Collins: canceled Tucker for 2 million a year.

Simone Collins: You

Malcolm Collins: wanna know, you wanna know how much, do you wanna know how much? Well, I have your loyalties

Simone Collins: lie, Charlie Kirk. Better than these two. I’ll tell you that. I know, right? But so it’s not just Mossad that Candace is blaming though. She, she also thinks that there are T-P-U-S-A insiders.

Not Erica Kirk. Not Erica Kirk and American Israel supporters and also the French military. Don’t forget the French military. And also evangelical churches. I, I haven’t gone deep enough into like all of the, the role that each individual part plays. But she’s, she’s also linked Kirk’s trip to Asia to this all and claimed it was part of this larger coverup.

And yeah, she, just to be clear, because a lot of people who follow her have, [00:36:00] have tried to insinuate or directly implicate Erica Kirk in, in this murder. And Candace Owens is very clear, like, no, I’m not blaming Erica Kirk. And she met with Erica Kirk and like played up, like, played into people’s like, oh, Erica’s gonna try to kill you.

And Candace Owens is like, well, Erica, like, I don’t know, like got bought her a drink or something. She’s like, well, I didn’t drink it. Like, I don’t, but like she, she’s been very explicit either because she’s being hit with like major defamation or slander lawsuit threats or because she actually just.

For some reason really doesn’t wanna implicate this, but there’s the Egyptian plains component that I think a lot of people will have

Malcolm Collins: to do, especially if she knows that it’s fake to blame somebody for killing like the mother their their

Simone Collins: husband. Yeah. The mother of children. Yeah. ‘cause she also is a mother of children.

This is

Malcolm Collins: actually like a fake thing she’s doing for entertainment purposes. Yeah. I, I can see her being like, look, even I’m not that monster. Yeah. Even, yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah, yeah. She’s not that debauched. But a lot of people mock her for the whole Egyptian planes thing, and I [00:37:00] didn’t know how they fit in. So I’m going to explain for those who like me, she got the record.

She the record all wrong. What? Who?

Malcolm Collins: Huh? The plane record. She got them all wrong.

Simone Collins: Well, yes, but here’s what she claimed. She claimed that Egyptian military or surveillance aircraft, and she was specifically. Identifying the planes like SU dash btt, and SU dash bnd via flight tracking data from sources like A DSB exchange were repeatedly tracking or overlapping with the locations of Erica Chirk Erica Kirk.

And then on the day of the assassination she, she claimed that at least one or maybe both of these Egyptian planes was present or powered on at the Provo Airport, which is right by where. Charlie Kirk was and then she says that one took off shortly after, while the other remained grounded, and that passengers 11 allegedly received rental cars possibly linked to Duncan Aviation.

And she implied that there were operatives and foreign entities [00:38:00] on the ground. And then she’s referenced tips including unnamed, quote unquote federal agents warning her to stop discussing the planes and alleged T-P-U-S-A pressured her to drop it too. But she, she basically just is, is trying to say, people are trying to shut me up about this and cover it up.

And I think when people are like. Candace, you’re wrong about this. Like, you were just like, Hey, she used, she used the, she tracked the data wrong. I think when people even in, in who are her supporters and who believe what she says try to correct her because they actually did fact check and they couldn’t find, they just couldn’t back up what she was claiming.

The way her brain intuitively interprets that is, oh, you are trying to silence me. So I think that’s, that’s kind of the problem when you tell her you’re,

Malcolm Collins: you’re factually wrong.

Simone Collins: Here

Malcolm Collins: are the rest. Yeah. She’s

Simone Collins: like, oh, I see what, you’re a federal agent, aren’t you? Like that kind of thing. But let’s also, of course, the, the, I just, her brain works like that.

Her brain is, she has a beautiful mind. She has a very stable genius. And let’s, [00:39:00] let’s though, speaking of geniuses and, and exceptional people, her whole X-Men style school for gifted children thing she, I wanna know more

Malcolm Collins: about this. Yeah.

Simone Collins: So this whole thing about Charlie Kirk being marked as a child due to exceptional abilities, like off the chart.

Test scores and things like that. Maybe, maybe possibly foresight. She, she alleged that agents wanted to drug him for behavioral issues, but that his mother refused. And this led to him being placed in a school for the gifted akin to the X-Men Academy. And she was possibly referring to programs like gate or schools out of Quest Academy in Illinois.

And she says that he was monitored by government agents his whole life required security early on, and that she herself was recruited for a similar program, but quote, pretended to be an idiot and quote to escape. And critics note, Kirk attended public schools like Wheeling High School and did not graduate college.

And this contradicts the whole narrative. So, to be fair, [00:40:00] arguably school teachers are government agents. And also it’s super common for teachers and school administrators to insinuate at, at, at the very least, possibly even explicitly, encourage parents to drug their children. True. Like to give Adderall to, to especially smart, energetic boys, like they’re drug to high heaven.

So she’s not wrong that he was monitored by government agents, his entire youth, and, and that they tried to drug him because that’s like literally any boy in America who goes to school.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That, that happened to me growing up. Like I don’t under,

Simone Collins: I also think both you and I were in the GATE program. I,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, I was in a lot of well, various, like, gifted programs.

I was in my, my,

Simone Collins: I was definitely, I was actually in gate. I remember testing into it and I remember going to it, and I, I have zero memory of what we actually did. I remember, I remember where we would meet for class. It was [00:41:00] in the, our, our school auditorium, which was also our school lunchroom, which was also our school basketball, like indoor basketball court.

But I don’t, I I remember sitting at folding table, we didn’t do anything. Yeah. Being, being mon. Yeah. I, but I love that she she pretended to be dumb just to stay away from the program. Everyone wanted to be in that program. ‘cause you could get at a normal class and basically do nothing. I, I love

Malcolm Collins: the idea if you have this, this, this paranoid child who has, takes tests for like, the gifted program and they, they, like I, I’ll put on the Cartman Sea where he is pretending to be retarded.

Simone Collins: Oh. So yeah. Anyway on the X-Men thing, like, well he wasn’t in any special schools. She’s not technically wrong about. The other, she’s technically wrong. She’s

Malcolm Collins: entirely wrong.

Simone Collins: Well, no, I mean, okay. He didn’t go to like an X-Men Academy, but like a government agent to monitored [00:42:00] him and tried to drug him.

I’m just,

Malcolm Collins: okay.

Simone Collins: True. So that’s true. I’m saying that’s true. I’m confirming this one

Malcolm Collins: true. Okay. It’s just, I love that there’s a bunch of these where I’m just like, well, it depends on how you look at it.

Simone Collins: No, she, she, she, she she spends a good yarn and maybe this, maybe she warrants then the $240,000 she gets a month minimum on Patreon.

Not a little salty about that at all. We get, I’m very, for those of you who support us on Patreon, though, I am so freaking grateful. It really means a lot to us, so thank you. So let’s go to the time traveler claim though, because let’s not forget about that. She, she stated it as an absolute fact that Kirk believed he was a time traveler based on private text messages.

Where, you know, and for the first, the way she, she framed this all before she actually shared a screenshot of the text exchange, which I read to you at the top, was that, you know, he, he said he was a time traveler and that he had to find her. And, and she also [00:43:00] claims that, that he knew he would die young to change outcomes.

And then speculated that this was tied to CIA’s project looking glass which is this conspiracy theory about a time traveling device from the a the ancient Samaria. Like it, it’s linked to the Mandela Effect. What a

Malcolm Collins: cool effing world. We need to have a video game that just takes place in the world.

That Candace Owen, I made, I made

Simone Collins: one on reality fabricator. You’re Candace Owens, and everything you say is true. Like all your conspiracy theories are true. And I had create a summary of all of our conspiracy theories, and I put it into that. When you make a custom scenario on gr you, you can, you can have like the premise of it be public and upfront, and then you can put stuff in the backend of like the plot of whatever adventure you’ve created that the user can’t see, but that the AI knows.

So as you play through it, it, it, all those plot devices come out.

Janice, I was

trying all of her conspiracy theories, so like you’ll bump into them as you play

Malcolm Collins: Canice Owen’s trying to survive in a world of, of you know what I like about [00:44:00] her conspiracy theories? Yeah. Is. The, they are very different from standard conspiracy theory narratives.

It’s not like aliens and everything like that, or reptilians or anything. It’s, you know, secret government schools and, and, and spying on you and like, sort of like almost gang stalking related stuff, but tied to other people, like Yeah. Yeah. It is, it’s delightful. A fascinatingly, unique conspiratorial world that like borders on the believable in many ways.

If you’re prone to like, it’s not,

Simone Collins: yeah. Into, I have no

Malcolm Collins: magnetic hours. Is Charlie hurt if he just

Simone Collins: mentally Yes. And did, and I, I tried to find out because we, we have these texts that he sent her, which explained the time traveler part where she like way Yes. And did that like a lot. But I couldn’t get, I, I was trying to find out where she got the impression that he thought he would die or knew he would die young.

I mean, you and I get this impression that we’re gonna die like any day. Yeah. So we talk about that. I feel like part of that could just [00:45:00] be that he kind of had the same mindset that we do, which is like, I just can’t imagine making it past. Like to the next year. Like, I’ll just

Malcolm Collins: tell you where she got it from,

Simone Collins: where

Malcolm Collins: like, I, I could already sort of figure this out.

She got it because it’s narratively the most interesting thing. Well, no, no,

Simone Collins: no. We, we actually, so I’ll tell, I mean, in her, in her January 14th podcast of this year. So like, four days ago as of this recording titled Project Looking Glass, how did Charlie know he was going to die? This is episode two 90 of her Candace show.

She explicitly states that Kirk repeatedly told her he was a time traveler and expressed foreknowledge of dying young. And then she claims that he, he tied this to his work with Turning Points, USA saying things like. From the beginning of Turning Points, USA, he quote, knew in his gut that he might get wiped out at any time.

End quote, and dreamed about it frequently. She claims he, quote, was not sure he would live to see the end of this revolution. End quote, and believed Owens was the person meant to [00:46:00] quote, finish the fight, end quote after him, and then he predicted his death would be a. Tragic event connected to the organization, and that he would die young as part of a larger mission or predetermined outcome.

So that’s what she said during recently.

Malcolm Collins: It’s very clear. So first of all, remember what she extrapolated into? He the time traveler. She doesn’t think she’s an alien from that exchange. I know, I know. That’s so great. It’s so great. Yeah. It’s not two sided. Yeah, no, nothing she says is a joke. Just things that other people say can’t be jokes.

But the the wider point being is when she looks at something like this. Mm-hmm. So he says, he said he might die young or like he’s afraid of being assassinated, which anyone was. His profile would be, you get totally, totally right. Yeah. Like we did death threats constantly. We talk about that with people that we talk to.

Like obviously that’s what he talked to her about. I might die as part of my advocacy. Yeah. And something like, it’d be normal to say something like, and I, well, it was a

Simone Collins: real risk. I mean, he had security. He knew that there were threats. I’m sure he got death threats all the [00:47:00] time. Yeah. So, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So did he say that to her?

Yeah, probably. Yeah. You know, but does that mean she’s just

Simone Collins: threading it together? She’s, we’re running outta time, so let, keep going. Okay. So first off, I just had to kind of like reality check this, like, is, is there actually evidence that anyone genuinely believes what she’s saying? Because I could see a world in which she’s just, just doing jazz with conspiracy theories, but everyone else is just like, they, they’re not believing it.

Yeah. But there are absolutely posts that I found even after a tiny bit of scrolling. On her Twitter feed or Or on? On X, or just seeing what people have sent me about Candace Owens of people absolutely trying to defend her. One example is Lori Love, who is over 19,000 followers on X defending Owens time traveler claims by pointing to her sharing the text exchange screenshot.

She writing Candace Owens claims. Charlie Kirk was a time traveler. She’s insane, she’s psychotic. Kind [00:48:00] of, you know, voicing the doubts of people as expressed. Yeah. And then she writes correction. Charlie Kirk said he was a time traveler as if like mic drop. Like as if this wasn’t obviously a flirty exchange that where they’re just kind of joking or at least, I mean, could Candace Owen’s just joking that she’s an alien?

I, anyway in terms of whether supposed to do anything other than joke back to that, how else do you even respond to that? I know, I know exactly like he’s doing what any normal person with social skills would do. So I think it’s it, so I’m just saying there are people, people online who are feeding into it and who are so earnest and don’t see the irony.

However, her fans are absolutely trolling her and egging her on as well. And it’s not just her fans. The Daily Wire also trolls her. So one thing they did recently was they made a fake Egyptian air advertisement riffing on her Egyptian plains conspiracy theory and, and [00:49:00] posted it from her, her old daily wire account.

Which is delightful.

Malcolm Collins: That’s a good meme. I like that.

Simone Collins: And then I think she, what did the ad say? What was the joke? Oh, let me, I’ll, I’ll send you, you can watch it. You can watch it really quick. Hold on. Let send you a link. ‘cause it’s, it’s funny. It’s cute. Okay. Go to WhatsApp

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Malcolm Collins: oh my God, Simone, what is, it’s a good troll is even we just, I wish I lived in this world of trolling Candace Owens. We, we don’t have crazy people in our world.

Simone Collins: We’ll, we’ll get there. But here’s I would, I, I also need to point out that Candace Owens actively feeds into this. So, she made a post recently where she said, question for conspiracy theorists, in quotes only, what’s the real reason?

The deep state is suddenly obsessed with seizing Greenland. So she actively calls out conspiracy theorists. In scare quotes and asks them to share theories with her. So there is, there is, she’s like, I don’t have a good conspiracy

Malcolm Collins: theory on this one

Simone Collins: yet. I’m gonna crowdsource, I’m gonna crowdsource.

Yeah. Gimme some, gimme some material guys. And they didn’t even have to pay $20 a month for that. Wow. I mean, like, this is, this is the hack. If you really wanna feed into the Candace Owens and have her listen to you, [00:51:00] but not pay $20 month

Malcolm Collins: feed her conspiracies about us. I loved hearing on Joe Rogan that I’m a vampire and so

Simone Collins: Well, and actually she, she, she said that she was really enjoying listening to a podcast, I think associated with Kurt Metzger.

So anyway, let’s get to, what flavor of psychosis does Candace Owens have? So, in favor of AI psychosis, 2025 was the first year AI psychosis really arose. That is also when Candace Owens got really big and when all of these, these conspiracy theories I just shared with you went crazy. All of these really got big in 2025 at around the same time that AI psychosis got big.

However, Owens was known for being a conspiracy theory from 2018 onward. So I think if anything, the AI psychosis got worse or made it worse, or, or she got a AI psycho psychosis, which, which fed into her existence. I wanna,

Malcolm Collins: I [00:52:00] wanna talk about the word conspiracy theorist you’re using here. Okay. Yeah.

Okay, fair.

Simone Collins: Fair. Because I’ll give, I’ll, I’ll give you the context in which she was described as a conspiracy theorist. Okay, great. Yeah. Reporting describes her as a pro-Trump conspiracy theorist, which I mean, come on. She was just right about things. It was right in the right wing. Media was tied to claims such as suggesting that mail bombs sent to Trump’s critics in October, 2018 were actually a left wing false flag, a claim she deleted after the suspect was identified as a Trump supporter.

Though, to be fair, there were tons. Both out in the open false flag style attacks, like the fact that Democratic superpacs, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: that’s not a excuse. Democratic

Simone Collins: supporters supported Superpacs donated to primaries of. Extreme Republicans who would then win the primary but then be unelectable in the, in the general election, like there were absolutely democratic conspiracies.

So I don’t know. And then by 2020, she was publicly questioning official COVID, 19 death figures, which everyone was [00:53:00] attacking Bill Gates as a vaccine criminal. I don’t know. Then yeah, know only

Malcolm Collins: everyone was, come on. She

Simone Collins: was part of a broader anti-vaccine, pandemic related conspiracy rhetoric universe. This is, this is universe.

This only

Malcolm Collins: spring the case that is AI psychosis. ‘cause all of this stuff is, is conspiracy fashioning. Okay. This is, these are actual conspiracies. A conspiracy spotter. Alright. They’re the difference between being a conspiracy

Simone Collins: Oh, versus generator. You’re right. ‘cause now she’s generating really novel, interesting stuff.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So if you go with this stuff, I remember there was a Vanity Fair base that came up recently and they tried to like attack a bunch of the Trump people and it was like JD Vance of the conspiracy theorist. They’re like, oh, based, right? Like, that’s pretty cool, right? Like, because when I hear that, I think, oh, he’s like questioning stats around like COVID or something like that.

Right? Like jump never terms the time travelers.

Simone Collins: RFKs confirmation hearing where they’re like, well, but you’re, how do you answer the, the claims that you’re a conspiracy theorist? And he is like, well, which conspiracy theory are we talking about then this one? ‘cause it turned out to be true. This one. ‘cause it turned out to be true.

Yeah. It’s just like, oh [00:54:00] damn. Yeah. Like what it means to be a conspiracy theorist now is very different from what it meant before there were genuine rampant conspiracies all around us. So I touche. But in favor of the fan driven psychosis then Candace got big because of Charlie’s Kirk’s assassination.

I will, I’ll give you a graph. I’m gonna send you the, you can basically see in 2025, her follower count just went. Completely

Malcolm Collins: off. So she’s got no reason to tone it down at this point.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like she, she’s being rewarded for her conspiracy theories. Click on the, the graph that I sent you. Uhoh, you can see.

It just goes uhoh. Like as soon as she goes off the reservation, she, it gets very

Malcolm Collins: lucrative. Literally. No, it was like, it was like leveling off. Okay. At around like mm-hmm. 1.5 million, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then in one year it jumps to like 5.5 million. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And

Simone Collins: like, let’s, let’s talk [00:55:00] if, if you are, say, a therapist trying to, or a family or someone trying to intervene and someone’s existing tendency toward.

Psychosis. The last thing you wanna do is heavily reward it, both in terms of fan feedback and in terms of money. But what’s happening with her is you get this Skinner instant cha-ching plus, oh my God, you’re amazing. Every time she comes up with some new delusion. So I do think that the fan feedback would fry your brain, plays brain

Malcolm Collins: so quickly.

Do you know how quickly my brain would fry if, if you guys loved every, and I do come up with a lot of good if you

Simone Collins: monetarily loved. I don’t, we’re on Patreon in some, we have

Malcolm Collins: a new one that’s gonna come out soon that a, I filmed today, but I wanna put this one live tomorrow. Thank. But the one thing that we film today is why Muslims never win wars of conquest.

After like. 200 years of Mohammad’s death. And it’s weird, like when you, when you go into the data in it it’s weird and it is very conspiratorial, isn’t it?

Simone Collins: As weird as, as, [00:56:00] as Macron’s wife being a man,

Malcolm Collins: I think, well we argue that prejudice is good and it’s why the, the early. Yeah. Well that’s, I mean

Simone Collins: that’s, that’s classic base camp bread and butter.

Give us time though. I mean, Candace was doing this longer than we have been doing

Malcolm Collins: it. We have definitely gotten crazier as time has gone on. I’ll give you that much like our fans when we did the episode saying that parasites are likely augmenting people’s arousal pathways and thus their sexual identities.

Yeah. They were like, give it, because that’s pretty deep Republican and the

Simone Collins: toxoplasmosis is making, like giving people certain fetishes and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And,

Malcolm Collins: and people were like, because you know what ba basically people hear from that is. Being gay is contagious. Right? And so, they, they or, or alternate sexual profiles are contagious.

And then they’re like, they’ll, they’ll be talking about demons next. Like, they’re like, they’re go, they’re getting there. And I, and the, our fans who say this, love it. Our fans love the deeper our conspiracies go. I [00:57:00] never get a, Hey Malcolm, step back from the ledge there. Like,

Simone Collins: yeah, yeah. If that was accompanied with a bunch of paid subscriptions, we’d probably feed into it more.

I’m not asking, not a bunch. Am I asking for that? I don’t, I don’t mind. We need money. It’s very cool’s. Can you see how cold it is in here right now? I’m just saying. We’re cold. Oh. But in favor of normal psychosis. In favor of normal psychosis. I actually do think that there is something to this.

There is no reliable public evidence that Candace Owens has any sort of family history of psychosis or schizophrenia, and she’s certainly not discussed any family history or there’s no like critical biological news sources on this. So I, there’s no like, oh, well she comes from a family with this kind of problem.

However, like Jordan Peterson has talked about his family having all the sorts of, you know, health problems that he then associates with. So I’m just saying like, there are other people who talk about these things. Candace Owens doesn’t talk about this. However she does [00:58:00] seem to have this general tendency to think in a schizo manner that stems back even to her early career before you could have AI or fan-based psychosis.

Because in 2016, during her whole soul autopsy, her like doxing web, you remember her like first business venture was basically a doxing website. For

Malcolm Collins: doxing other people.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Social autopsy was supposed to be like this. It, it was, it was her entry to the gamer gate circles where she, she blamed progressive gamers in the left for doxing her, despite her like basically very scan evidence.

And in this case she basically had this very conspiratorial, like they’re out to get me mindset about being doxed and being persecuted. And I think from as long as there’s sort of a public record of her, there’s a record of her thinking that people are out to get her and that there are conspiracy against her.

So I think it is part of her general mindset. [00:59:00] And so what I think we have with the psychosis maxing of Candace Owens is a perfect storm of someone who just by personality, be it schizo or not. Tends to view things conspiratorially and also tends to believe people have it out for her personally. Then being subject to.

AI driven psychosis. At the same time she is subject to fan driven psychosis. You get this really powerful result, and that is why suddenly there’s stories of Charlie Kirk going to the X-Men style. Well, and I

Malcolm Collins: think that we have evidence, you have shared with me what I found to be very credible evidence of AI psychosis.

Mm. Specifically the type of conspiracy that she was building, where she was going through, I think it was like random strings of letters tied to like call signs on plate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And connecting them with like famous events from history. And it was not the type of connection that a human could [01:00:00] easily make, but it’s the type of connection you could force an AI to make.

Like, well, but also like the, the, the Frank Ist.

Simone Collins: Stuff like that’s, that’s deep. And I think you have been able to do a lot of religious history research because AI has enabled those searches. I, I would be shocked if she doesn’t use AI to power her research. She doesn’t have like a big staffer operation.

I mean, her husband manages the business side of her business. I don’t think he’s that involved in her content. I, and I don’t think she has a big staff. So I think she’s leaning heavily on AI and the, the correlation between someone who leans heavily on AI for research and who then asks AI is sort of mirror, mirror on the wall situation that drives people nuts.

Is, is, you know, the risk is higher. Right. You know, when you’re exposed

Malcolm Collins: to that. Right. But the, the structure of some of her conspiracy theories. Basically a human couldn’t structure a conspiracy theory that way, not quickly. They might be able to, you know, putting it on the site, letting the otus go at it for a few months and then come back and been like, well, [01:01:00] they found, because it wasn’t like exact, it was like, okay, there was this call sign, which rep was like this camp in World War ii and there was this call sign, which was this secret military group Yeah.

In like the Napoleonic Wars and there was this call sign and it was like, those are really not normal connections. Yeah. Only

Simone Collins: AI could easily and fastly do that at scale, otherwise, yeah. You have to wait for auto to churn and churn and churn. That’s, yeah, that’s fair. Although I, I, I think again, it’s even more superpowered by the fact that you do have all these people feeding her stuff and her actively asking people to feed her stuff.

So it’s, it’s top minds.

Malcolm Collins: I’m asking you guys if we have any people in the Candace Owens get her on our conspiracy theories. Okay. We’ve got a lot of good ones here. We got a lot of good ones. Could be synergistic.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But could be synergistic. I mean, unless we, we have to, we have to plausibly be implicated in Charlie Kirk’s murder.

‘cause that is ultimately the big cash cow. Like that is the thing. All these things, even [01:02:00] Therons, keep in mind, you know, like everything except for dinosaurs in the moon landing, being fake and gay are are pretty much connected in some way to Charlie Kirk. It all comes back to Charlie Kirk. I mean, her, his, his martyrdom was her, her skyrocketing to fame and she is, and very shameful as

Malcolm Collins: peers what it is.

It’s

Simone Collins: really, yeah, it is. It, it, it hurts me to see that part of it. It’s very. I don’t like saying cringe, but it is

Malcolm Collins: if, if, if she’s not just crazy, she’s a very bad person. Like that’s just the gist. But see, I don’t

Simone Collins: think she means to be, I, I think she genuinely really liked Charlie Kirk. They clearly flirted and had fun.

And I, I don’t mean like, I don’t mean to insinuate any that both were married happily. I think they were both very happily married too. Mm-hmm. I just think that they were playful friends and they, they liked each other and he was nice to her. I mean, to be fair, I think he was very playful and kind and, and charismatic with everyone he worked [01:03:00] with, which is one reason why he was so successful in his role and a great fundraiser to boot.

But yeah, I think she genuinely cared a lot for him and it drove her pretty nuts to see him. But here’s the, here’s the other thing is when you are in, in this period of grief and emotional. Insanity when you lose someone you care a lot about. And then everyone rewards you when you go through this one period of your grief where you’re like, oh, it was the Jews who did it.

It was T-P-U-S-A, it was the French, it was, ah, and then like, and then, then people feed into that. When you’re kind of driven crazy by your grief, you can do crazy things. You know, I, I don’t think this was intentional. I don’t think she was like, wow. I just think when it, it’s very hard to go against your instincts when you do something and then get immense rewards for it.

It’s, it’s just classic conditioning.

Dave Chappelle has also talked about this, but he was saying, and I think this is something at play here, that it can be [01:04:00] very hard for famous people to accept that just a random, crazy person can kill one of your friends, and this is hard for normal people to accept. And so you. Invent a, a more larger theory about why, and his death was actually part of some bigger conspiracy.

, But it’s uniquely hard, as Chappelle pointed out, and I can’t easily emphasize with this, for whatever reason, that random nobodies can just kill you for no reason other than their weird ideological agenda.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I, I hear that. I think

You nailed it on the head. What’s causing this? And I feel like I, I, I mean, you, you say, I hope she gets better, but it’s making her money. So, you know, like if she gets better, will anyone care what she has to say anymore?

Right. Like it’s a

Simone Collins: No. That’s the thing is she can’t really go back now.

Maybe the way that this can work out the best is she [01:05:00] settles her lawsuit with Macrons and she becomes the, the trend spotter of new emerging conspiracy theories, but manages to be the person who separates the, the wheat from the chaff and actually surfaces new and good conspiracy theories that are true and credible and that change the way the people, you, you and I

Malcolm Collins: know exactly where this goes.

So what’s gonna happen is she’s gonna keep spiraling into crazier and crazier stuff until it’s clear to. Any mainstream fan base she has that she’s actually just a crazy person.

Simone Collins: It’s already getting pretty far.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, keep in mind this kind of happened in much slower motion to Alex Jones where he starts fairly normal and then he gets a little crazier and a little crazier and then he’s shouting at the camera and about to lose it.

But this took like 10 or 20 years for him because he didn’t feed into it as quickly. She’s just gone all in [01:06:00] immediately. Like she’s at a point now that’s way crazier than Alex Jones ever got. Well if

Simone Collins: she’s making two 50 KA month just on Patreon, as long as she and her husband save responsibly, they can.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t think she’s gonna save responsibly, Simone.

Simone Collins: I’m just saying they can be, be financially independent for the rest of their lives and just live off their dividends. Of

Malcolm Collins: if comfortably she can be financially responsible.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but I mean, look, she’s gonna make a million from Patreon alone in a quarter,

4 million a year. She’ll have 8 million in two years. That means that just off the invest amount, she could have over 20 KA month in take home income. I mean, some of that will be taxed. It’s just that like that, I’m, I’m I, Candace safe response. I mean, her husband’s managing the business. [01:07:00] She’s just, she’s just going off.

I, I imagine he’s the kind of responsible man who’s, who’s quietly banking this, and he is like, look, we’ll just have her. She’ll get a lot of work done after this scratch. Got it. We’ll get some. So like, yeah, like we will help her after. Right now, let’s just rake it in and we’ll pick up the pieces and put her back together as we live quietly on a farm somewhere far away from all of this and offline, you know?

Yeah. I, I, that is, that, that is what I’m hoping for her husband in the background. Just, he’ll pick up the pieces, but right now he’s, he’s doing what he needs to do, you know? Get that bag, sir. It’s true. Yeah. True.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, you are amazing. I love this episode. I felt like you did an absolutely excellent job of introducing me to all these ideas because I, I didn’t know I’m going into this.

Simone Collins: I was delighted to learn them as well. And check out reality fabricator. If you wanna play I’ll give you the link to that. There’s the, there’s the shareable link. Yeah, we got shareable, the scenario where you’re, you are Candace Owens, but all of the conspiracy theories are true if you wanna understand what it’s like to [01:08:00] live in her world.

You will know now you can play as her in, in her world. Delightful. So I love you Malcolm. And for dinner we’re making mystery curry with green onions, peppers, and I’m gonna put cream in ‘cause you wanted cream in your curries, right? Oh, I

Malcolm Collins: love that idea. Yes. Well, and because it’s a mystery curry you probably want hoisin

Simone Collins: sauce and sunbelt ole added.

Yeah. So sandal ole, I’m of course gonna saute garlic before I put it all in too, so, okay. I love you. And actually, would you, since you’re dressed, would you mind running and getting the kids? I, I can call Stacy right now just so I can

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Change. But you call Stacy. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay. I’ll calling right now. I love you.

Oops. I’m pink and la.

Speaker 9: Oh wait, why Dad? Why this go there? ‘cause I made it. You were already in the toilet. How do we put it there? There’s not one [01:09:00] enough code in, there’s the mouse is not, oh wait. It’s not connected that way. The mouse is not working. What? This is the mouse? Yeah. You plugged the mouse in there. That might’ve broken it.

Speaker 10: By the way, you can’t plug the mouse into a power slot. Twist Octavian. Be careful about being so close to the edge of the bed you could fall off. Okay. What are you doing? Little one. Hey, you guys wanna watch Power Rangers?

Speaker 9: I just wanna fly to mini game while we got to make a roller coaster. Yeah, I’ll put on Roller Coaster. Tycoon for you. Don’t worry. Oh wait, Octavian. But you gotta say like, and subscribe. Like I subscribe please, everybody. What about Toasty? Can you say it like, and. What about, what about you, Titan? Can you say it?

White sky. Okay. Andy, can you say it? [01:10:00] Dad, I love you, Andy.

In this episode, Malcolm & Simone Collins explore the bizarre, contradictory, and extremely influential philosophy of Julius Evola — the Italian thinker often called the “super-fascist” who criticized the Nazis for being too materialistic and not racist/spiritual enough.

We cover:

* Spiritual racism & soul hierarchies (yes, really)

* Why he hated Nazis, democracy, modernity, Christianity, and Jews

* Magical idealism, riding the tiger, Kali Yuga & return to a primordial golden age

* Tantric sex metaphysics, non-ejaculatory rituals, graveyard meditation, and “metaphysics of sex”

* The strange influence on Bronze Age Pervert / BAP, new right vitalism, and even some Nick Fuentes-adjacent ideas

* Why we consider spiritual/mystical “vitalism” one of the most dangerous and self-defeating paths a person can take

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about the philosophical ideas of a man who hated the Nazis because he thought they were too woke and weren’t nearly racist enough for his standards. This is a man called Julius Ola. So, so actually he, he calls himself a super fascist.

He, he he didn’t actually hate the, he, he criticized him over that, but he thought that what they were doing broadly aligned with his ideology, which was a very interesting world perspective. And I, I wanted to talk about it because I was looking at and trying to understand where some of the new Vitalistic philosophies got their world framing from.

For example, the philosophy of BAP or Bronze h pervert, who, who by the way, has explicitly said to his followers, don’t read this guy directly. It’s all philosophical. Who what is it? Like mystical hoodoo? But he’ll occasionally read things that this guy has, has, has written as like a, a sort of [00:01:00] vibing.

And when you, when you see this guy’s idea, you’ll be like, oh, I can see where the framework presented by a Bronze Age pervert, or by a man’s world or something like that, may have come in part from this guy’s ideology. He was around during the period of World War ii, so you understand he was in Italy.

He’s an Italian. I know, I know. Terrible. Is he still alive? He was alive until the 1970s. Okay. But he’s not, he’s

Simone Collins: not an actively publishing substack author. He, he’s an an actual philosopher who wrote stuff in, born

Malcolm Collins: in the 18 hundreds. Yes. Pre-internet. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. So, like, philosopher, philosopher, guy.

And his ideas. If, if you strip out the, the racism and everything like that of his ideas, ‘cause that’s, there’s a lot of racism. It, it was interesting, he believed that different ethnic groups had different qualities. Like there was like a hierarchy of soul quality between ethnic [00:02:00] groups, but that you could work so that you, your goal was to always improve your soul quality.

Right? Like, like how we believe a person’s life’s goal is.

Simone Collins: So he wasn’t an HBD dude, he was a like soul. Like metaphysically. Different groups were different.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That’s why he didn’t like the Nazis, because he said they, so that was his big disagreement with him. He was like, well, you know, they’re, they’re being too like materialistic.

Oh my God.

Simone Collins: Like, don’t look at the genetics. You have to, you have to look at their auras. I’m so what he thought,

Malcolm Collins: he thought that you could like, work out your soul enough. He’s like a soul Jim. What,

Simone Collins: on what grounds was he evaluating their souls? We,

Malcolm Collins: we will talk about it, but he thought that you could work it out enough that you could get your soul into like another ethnic group of souls.

So like, you, you could have an Aryan soul even if you weren’t Aryan and if you were Aryan, but like, you were too materialistic. That’s kind of Hindu, right?

Simone Collins: [00:03:00] I mean, like, I guess you could die and be reincarnated. Reincarnated in a different level. Oh

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah. He was heavily influenced by Buddhist theology.

Okay. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Okay. His whole world perspective was much clo more closely tied to Buddhism than it was to Christianity. Wow. Although, although he, what he would’ve called himself is not Christian or Buddhist, he believed he was trying to revitalize the pagan world of the ancient Greeks and Romans.

And he thought that that was like the correct way to practice religion. But you, you can get an idea of like where that fits with something like BA and all the Greek and Roman statues and everything like that. Right.

Simone Collins: I am so intrigued now because this is already so unhinged. I mean, it’s a Hindu, but make it idolize ancient Greece and make it racist and all these insane things. The, the Nazis got it wrong because they weren’t looking at [00:04:00] souls.

Malcolm Collins: They weren’t looking at souls. They were, they were just, they were being too woke about this whole thing.

Simone Collins: It’s so, it’s so weirdly insulting. Like I, I, I, I I, I don’t even know where to start wrapping my head around this. Okay. Okay. I, I mean, I guess it’s kind of like the, the whole Mormon thing of like, well, if you were, until they decided that they were wrong about this, like, well, if you’re born black, that means, you know, if you’re not white and delight some, you, you did something wrong.

Well, I can’t remember. That was so, something along those lines. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, well, it means your soul I think it was that you didn’t actively join Jesus. When Satan revolted against Jesus in sort of pre-life when they had the big soul battle. Oh. And so, they had the soul battle and the souls that join in Jesus.

They are born as white people, and the souls that were neutral in the battle are the ones that became dark skinned people.

Simone Collins: The, the draft dodgers. Oh, dare you. Yes. Yeah. So it is like that, I guess kind of, but not, it’s [00:05:00] much more Hindu sounding. This is just so intriguing.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So I’ll first do an overview of his philosophy.

Then we’ll go into a little bit of his writings, and then we’ll go into some like interesting, unique points of it.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So his philosophy is often termed magical idealism or transcendental realism, and it posits a dualistic ontology, a natural material world contrasted with a primordial eternal being, forming a hierarchical chain from the divine to the profane.

He rejected discussive knowledge in favor of spur rational intuition, viewing the self as capable of creating reality and achieving unity with the absolute through self divination, essentially constructing divinity rather than submitting to a personal God. Okay, this is

Simone Collins: like the Quaker kind of thing, where like, if I feel it, then it’s real.

Am I reading that right?

Malcolm Collins: Not exactly. So Quaker still believed that there’s like an external God to them that’s talking to them. He believed that you built God sort of [00:06:00] through honing your internal metaphysical powers or spirit. So it’s the power

Simone Collins: of wishy thinking.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. The power of, we should think now if you, if you look at it from our perspectives, this is interesting ‘cause it has some parallels to our beliefs where we also believe that God is something that is built but we believe he’s built through a materialistic process.

Mm-hmm. Self-improvement, improvement of humanity, intergenerational improvement. Hmm. Whereas he sees it God as being built by a, a, a single generation’s cultivation of the soul. So like your, your individual cultivation of the soul was in yourself. And he believed that we were currently living in Kali Yuga.

So you can see already like heavily influenced by Hindu ideology there. So it was also Hindu I should note. Ola viewed history as a evolution or decline through four ages was the current Kaga dark ages marked by chaos vice and the [00:07:00] triumphs of the masses over the elites.

He rejected the linear progress or Darwinian evolution as regressive miss advocating a return to a primordial golden age through spiritual renewal epigenesis. So,

Simone Collins: okay, so there, there’s the, oh, pa paleogene. So that’s the bap thing. That’s, that’s maybe where we’re like, yeah. This revival of some idealized ancient age.

Malcolm Collins: Well, he thought that like society should be structured in a way where you have the people with the, the better souls. They’re like the elite souls. Mm-hmm. Ruling over the naturally and obviously inferior general population. And, and what he hated about the modern world sort of democracy and all of that.

Is that the, the inferior the masses had control over the superior, the, the leadership cast.

Right?

And why this is interesting to me is you can see this very philosophical belief mirrored in say somebody [00:08:00] like Nick FO’s ideology, right? That, that there is, there is profanity in the concept that the masses would have control over.

You know, like, like very critical of democracy more broadly now, we, we are, we are fairly critical of democracy ourselves. And we always point out that the, the reason you have democracy, like the point of democracy is not to source the opinion of the masses. It’s to put competent people in positions of power and remove them when they are abusing those positions of power.

Right? That’s, that’s the core reason you need a democratic system. I mean, ideally you would just have a society that chose whoever was the, the, the smartest and most altruistic and most levelheaded and at the best me metaphysical understanding of reality and put them in a position of power. Right. And we just think that, that right now, democracy is not, it’s, it’s not good at doing that.

But there’s few other better systems right now, other than the ones that we’ve outlined, but a lot of the ones that the people like him want to see in power is they’re just like. [00:09:00] Naturally, somehow the people with the better souls are gonna be born into these positions. Like if you put if, if you concentrated power in a few individuals and then they started surrounding themselves with cronies and stuff like that, which they often sort of have to do.

Yeah. Because if, if they’re not, you know. Giving the corruption to the cronies and the cronies use the power they have to overthrow them, right? And so then they start surrounding themselves with incompetent people so that they have less of a possibility of overthrowing them. And so somebody else can’t overthrow them as easily.

And then you get all the, the corruption and everything like that, that leads to the failed state, which you have in a situation like Iran, right? Like that’s, that’s how you get that even if you are sorting for the most spiritual was in your community, which is what they were when they were setting up the ayatollah.

And the the council that served under him was in Iran. Like these were considered the most devout people which we, we discussed yesterday is, is what like an ideology of like Nick Fuentes would want to do in society but just was a different. Religion that still corrupts incredibly quickly and like spirals out of control incredibly quickly.

And then you get a lot of government [00:10:00] graft and we’ve pointed out like Iran’s water situation is caused by the corruption that happened because of the way this was structured. Mm-hmm. You always get lots of corruption when you centralize power in this way. Mm-hmm. Now this might be something that can be addressed with ai, but like, that’s why that’s generally a bad idea.

But I, I, I do agree that there is something profane. About a society in which the masses have control of, or influence over people who well, I wouldn’t say they have better souls or anything like that because that’s not a concept that we believe in. You could look at our track series on this, right?

We would say that there, there, there are people who seem to patently, you know, work harder on defining their world. Frameworks or metaphysical frameworks seem to have a better work ethic, seem to be more agentic. And that these individuals, if they had more power in society, would, would likely make society a better place.

But to continue here, he believed in a spiritual ra racist hierarchy. He divided the

Simone Collins: [00:11:00] spiritual racism. I, I do, I I’m delighted to be introduced to this as a new concept. The concept of spiritual racism.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So the, the interesting thing about him is so you might think. Oh, well, you know, he is looking at like the, the, the Nazis and he’s saying, well, you know, you just think it’s the body and I think it’s the soul.

No, no, no. He thought everyone was three things and the body was the least important.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The other two were the soul and the spirit. And the spirit was the most important. Wait, so the

Simone Collins: soul, the soul and the spirit are separate things. How are, how are they separate in this

Malcolm Collins: field? I think the so is sentient, but I can look this up right now.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. I’m also curious if you have found in your research of him some explanation as to how, how he could tell WW if someone had a good soul and a not good soul, if that makes sense. Right. Like, I mean the, the, the, the materialistic racist, right. They could just look at someone and, and [00:12:00] fairly quickly know, ah, I like this person, or I don’t like this person, but this guy’s walking down the street.

He can’t just look at someone and be like, Hmm. Bad soul. Good soul. Like how do you even be a soul racist when you, you can’t unless you like read auras and auras were a reflection of people’s soul and could see them somehow, or like he could Yeah. I, I want to understand this.

Malcolm Collins: Well,

he really hated materialism or focused on like the material world. Okay. And as such, he saw anything that was tied to that, either like economic materialism or science or other forms of, of, of that type of materialistic exploration of reality. Uhhuh as, inherently corrupting. So he’d hate us and he really didn’t like the Jews either.

So he saw that as like a a, an example of, of badness. Right. Another thing, note about him, he died without kids as people like this always do. [00:13:00] Yeah. We point out that when you get into mysticism it, it begins to break down a lot of other systems. And you typically don’t achieve what actually matters in life.

Like he was trying to vitalism Max in a way, but in this weird ous way that would’ve never worked.

Simone Collins: I, I fail to see the vitalism.

Malcolm Collins: We’ll, we’ll get to that. I mean, what is

Simone Collins: vitalism if you don’t produce anything materially,

Malcolm Collins: well, he called life as like writing the tiger. Well, that’s the thing, and this is why we, we, I, I, I complain about mysticism and, and this focus on like the soul and everything like that so much is because it allows you to say.

Well, I’m improving this, this thing that like no third party can you know, evaluate. Mm-hmm. Or make a judgment on. Mm-hmm. And because no third party can make a judgment on the thing that he’s building of himself you know, he can just always be like, oh yeah, I might be, which, which he became a permit who lived alone and ne didn’t like go outside much or talk to outsiders.

But he was working on his spirit. Right. You know, a very

Simone Collins: vitalistic,

Malcolm Collins: it allows you to, well, he’d say, I’m spending all day. [00:14:00] He called it writing the tiger, like living Yes. Modernity in this, this horrible world. He at one point, by the way, had a a trit was a famous feminist in Italy, which I think is funny.

But I’ll get to his views on sex because that was one of the things I, I wanted to hear. Yeah,

Simone Collins: let’s do,

Malcolm Collins: okay. So he wrote a book called The Metaphysics of Sex also called Aris in the Mysteries of Love. Where he views sex as a metaphysical force beyond biology, reproduction, or mere pleasure, he rejects evolutionary or veridian explorations, seeing arrows as a past to unity and transcendence.

Overcoming ego boundaries through ecstatic intoxication. Sex can be profane, carnal and instinctual or sacred ritualistic. Leading to spiritual ecstasy. No. Going from Tarra, Taoism, no. And mis like the hermaphrodite? No. He describe, he describes a magnetism of love as an inexplicable hyper aesthetic state of independent of logic and morality, potentially activating cosmic energies.[00:15:00]

Ebola discusses practices like tantric SEC for transmutation, EG controlling ejaculation Oh no, but world of the dangers when not grounded in discipline. He critiques modernity for reducing sex to consumption or sentiment, advocating its elevation to a mystery, aligning with traditional hierarchies including gender polarities, male as active and female as passive.

Gayness and other forms are addressed. Ambivalently sometimes as passed to unity, but often within his hierarchical framework.

Simone Collins: I can’t, I don’t have. The range necessary in my eye. Sockets to roll my eyes. Enough for what you just recounted to me. I am. I am disgusted by, I think what’s the most insulting is that he put a lot of thought into something that absolutely means nothing.

There is no such thing as love as he believes in it. There is no such this, this transport. He is literally just [00:16:00] deluding himself into thinking he did something with his life and he did nothing with his life, aside from apparently potentially influence a couple of. I mean, I don’t know. What’s the legacy that BAP is gonna leave behind?

I, I don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: We’ll get to that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, because

Malcolm Collins: I, well, I mean, I don’t think it’s just bap, I think as people have looked for vitalism, this is one of the sort of types of vitalism they’ve looked for. When you look for, and, and vitalism

Simone Collins: is America’s manifest destiny. Vital vitalism is, is is materialism incarnate.

I, I can’t understand that, that Yeah, you, you’ve kind of blown my mind that someone could be seen as vitalistic and not materialistic. Well,

Malcolm Collins: there’s a form and this, this is why we’re discussing this guy. Okay. I think he represents a perfect inversion of what we would want to see realized in the world.

Yeah. Because his vitalism is entirely tied to the concept of the, the, the what’s the word I’m looking for here? The mystical stuff is

Simone Collins: not real and we believe in [00:17:00] Yeah. You can’t

Malcolm Collins: Objectively get any judgment on Right. It’s non predictive of reality.

Mm-hmm. And as such, and we, we always warn about the dangers of mysticism whenever we go on. Mm-hmm. We haven’t done our religious stuff in a while, but like it is, it is so toxic. And I think some people, when they look for vitalism, they are drawn to looking for it in mysticism. And, and you know, we see, we see people going down this, an example of a friend of ours who’s going down this path is Ruby Art.

And I think that, look, I think he bounced back from that.

Simone Collins: Hasn’t he bounced back from that?

Malcolm Collins: I haven’t just, I still think that mysticism is a key part of his world framework. And I think that, that we need to look at what ends up happening to you in life. If you try to draw vitality through mysticism or magic or the supernatural or other forms of.

What I would see negative, negative things. In the past we would’ve said this was a witch or a, you know, bad, but in, in the modern times,

Simone Collins: no, he’s not even a witch. I wish he were a witch, but witches. [00:18:00] Make spells and hex people and kill people and, and cure people. They do stuff materialistically, God bless witches compared to him.

He can’t even, all he can do is manage tantric sex with a feminist. Are you kidding me?

Malcolm Collins: I’m just, I do you have no idea how much that discussed us, this idea that he thought that you were like, getting anything look and, and the idea that he’s like, well, there’s like carnal sex and then there’s ritualistic sex.

What is, what is a bigger waste of time? The only version of sex we say is

Simone Collins: not a sin is, is proative sex. Just period. And, and it, we have non-creative sex. We get that like it’s fine, but it’s also a sin. And he, he can’t even manage. Just like enjoying carnal sex. He is like, no, I have to, I have to pretend that it’s something more.

I just kind of, probably just to satisfy himself to think that he’s some kind of intellectual and he, he tricked enough people, apparently. Again, [00:19:00] Simone, and this is important. This is actually who paid for this man. How, how did, how was he allowed to do this?

Malcolm Collins: So suppose that you have a belief in the, the mysticism, like the, the core point is sort of, acculturating the mystical forces was in yourself, right?

Like the, the, the soul, the spirit, everything like that, right? All of the things that you cannot subjectively judge, touch, look at the development of. Mm-hmm. And now you need to make judgements about something like, is sex bad? Right? And so you look at it and your internal psychology is gonna be heavily influenced by your biology that wants you to have sex, right?

And so you allow that to corrupt you because you have no subjective way of knowing whether sex is bad or good in, in your framework because your entire framework is based off of mysticism and feels. So, you of course say, well, yeah, of course it feels good to me and I’m able to do it in a. In a way that, that, that follows some other parts of my tradition like that is ritualistic [00:20:00] and, and disciplined in some way.

So it’s like good in elevating. I mean, then you’re, you’re able to use that, which I’m sure he did, to try to get people to sleep with him, right? Like, that’s, that’s what these people always do. Right. But I wanna go to your earlier question about the difference between the soul and the spirit. Yes, please.

Okay. So he often translates soul as psyche or mind. It encompasses emotions, instincts, character, temperament, subjective experiences, and psychological patterns. VE only described it as the subtle body or formative forces between purely physical and purely spiritual. It is contingent, changeable and tight to individual personality, cultural influences, and even environmental factors.

There’s a materialistic

Simone Collins: basis for all of these things, as I imagine he knew.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then the spirit, as he saw he, this was the highest, it was super rational, transcendent principle. It is eternal, unchanging, and linked to the divine or metaphysical order. Ebola saw it as virile solar active element opposed, as opposed to lunar the passive soul.[00:21:00]

You can see a lot of mysticism in the sky. It represents the capacity for transcendence, heroic elevation aesthetic discipline and alignment with eternal truths in racial doctrine. The races, spirit, transcendental and metaphysical. The defense unchanging essence that connects the primordial miss symbols to higher orders.

And then I asked about what, what was this hypers static state that he talked about independent of logical morality. And this is from his metaphysics of the sex. And it refers to an intensified, heightened sensory or a static condition, a state of extremely sensitive intoxication or magnetic, quote unquote attraction that transcends the ordinary person.

It’s like a feverish, overwhelmingly erotic experience where the boundaries of self dissolve. And he saw this as independent of logical morality meaning that the state arises spontaneously and in ably without rational justification or ethical constraints. It’s not governed by logic or moral rules.

He describes it as the magnetism of love. So basically just like whatever I do when I really [00:22:00] want to have sex, like when I’m really horny and in the throes of it, is like definitively good. And, and now anyone who knows our wider framework would know how repellent we would find an idea like this, right?

Like this is clearly, he wants to engage in something and so he’s doing it. He’s, he is, he is defining it as good. Right. Rather than admitting that he is fallen like everyone else, like we would say and people should know when we say like, non-right, productive sex is sinful. We mean it’s sinful in the same way as masturbation is sinful or playing video games is sinful.

Mm-hmm. Or reading books is sinful. They don’t anything that’s

Simone Collins: not actively contributing to your objective function, whatever that may be. I mean, our religious framework holds that. The thing of inherent value is promoting future human flourishing and creating eventually what becomes God. But you can do you basically anything that doesn’t contribute to that is sinful.

So. If your, if your objective function is to serve [00:23:00] God, anytime you’re not serving God, you’re sinning. If your objective function is to maximize happiness in your life, anytime you’re not investing in actively maximizing true happiness, you’re messing up, which could even include doing things that on the face seem hed sonically indulgent because you’re not actually being made happy by them.

Like just scrolling on your phone. You’re not actually happy typically when you’re doing that. So you would be sinning by doing that, even if your objective function was happiness. Anyway, that, that’s where we stand on that. Just to clarify

Malcolm Collins: and, and I, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll note here the Bible does like this is not an anti-biblical perspective that specifically Romans 1423, but whoever has doubt is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith. And everything that does not come from faith is sin or everything that is not for God is sin.

And so if you’re, if you’re not doing it in the service of God, it is sinful. And so the question is, is what is in the service of God? And is tantric sex in the service of God? I think not. But [00:24:00] again, this guy really hated Christian, so don’t worry about it. That was not something he was interested in aligning with.

So he was heavily influenced by tantra, Buddhism and Hermeticism. Valles saw alchemy yoga and the left hand paths, rituals involving violence and sexuality as a pass towards transcendence. Sexuality was a tool for harnessing dark powers, not mere pleasure in aiming for a godman status.

Simone Collins: God, man.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I wanna hear about the violent thing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Violence is too materialistic for this guy. I don’t know. How could he have any relation to violence?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think the things he wanted to do or that felt like manly to him, I were, were things that he was promoting. Okay. Anyway, so rejection of Christianity and modernity.

He like Nietzsche or was it Nie? You did this Anyway, he rejected and dismissed Christianity as slave morality promoting proletarian egalitarianism. And he favored pre-Christian paganism. He saw modernity’s forces of democracy, capitalism, and [00:25:00] feminism as degenerative. And he countered by inner heroic discipline and detachment.

Now let’s see. What, what, what were your, his thoughts on, on violence? ‘cause I find that interesting. Okay, so he had something called the, the Pancha Mara or the five s or Forbidden things. So, this is the core ritual framework of the left hand tantra involving five elements starting with M in Sanscript.

I. And so it’s stuff like alcohol, meat, fish, grains, sexual union. So, these performed in secret often at night in cremation grounds or secret rights to amplify transgressive power. Ebola stressed that the goal was not for pleasure, but using these acts as poisons. That through discipline became nectar, an alchemical reversal.

So he believed in like that Jewish guy who we’ve gone over as like the actual antichrist, who I do think is the actual antichrist, I forgot his name. The the, the guys who the Jews thought was the [00:26:00] Messiah and converted to Islam

Simone Collins: name was Ball or something.

Malcolm Collins: I wanna say Ellie Eer, Ben Dove.

. B TA was who I was thinking of.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, he had this idea that you could like, because we’re living in the Messianic age all of the rules are inverted. And so you would do the things that the Bible said not to do.

And they became now good. And the things that the Bible said to do became bad. And you can see why, if you go to our, to our tract on him, why we would say he’s literally an antichrist. He literally did everything Christ did. In absolute inversion you know, like, born wealthy an academic very, very well respected, had a lot of followers, was well loved within his life crowned himself with a real crown instead of a crown of swords.

You know, it’s a fun little inversion there, but I don’t wanna get too far on him right now because I, I, I find him to be just a fascinating figure. But this seems to be the same thing. So he thought that you would take in negative things and then sort of like, if you did it in a, in a profane [00:27:00] enough way, these negative things would become positive things.

And this seems that you’re wondering about like, the type of mysticism that would have hit the H man and he would’ve believed this is the type of stuff he would’ve believed. This is, this is his world. These were his influencers. Okay. So. What did he think of sexuality? Ebola devoted significant attention to this viewing masina as a key to transcendence in left hand rituals.

It could involve prolonged non ejaculatory union it to circulate sexual energy upwards through the chakras. Oh, he described techniques like aandra’s postures, pero breast control, and visualization that transform lust into divine ecstasy. He differentiated profane sex modern, sentimental, or animalistic from sacred arrows where the woman embodies Akita as the act dissolves individuality, however, critique feminism and equality insisting on traditional gender roles for polarity to work [00:28:00] without initiation.

Although he said that without initiation, this led to demonic possession and psychic vampirism.

Simone Collins: No, I never have. I thought of demonic possession or psychic vampirism so positively in my life. Anything.

Malcolm Collins: No, he didn’t

Simone Collins: think of it positive. It distances me from that, which he describes as good. He said, no,

Malcolm Collins: this is, this is what mystics always do.

They’re like, because I always point out like how mysticism corrupts people’s minds and anyone who’s a sane person and looks around knows that the mystics look like dirty, crazy people that can barely hold their lives together. Right? Like everybody knows it. They look like meth addicts of religion, right?

Simone Collins: The myth addicts of religion. So true. And

Malcolm Collins: so what people will say is they’ll be like, well, you have to do it with like a higher mind, which I have, of course. Right. You know, so I am able to engage with it without corruption, right. And it’s like, I bet, I bet you do. I bet you engaged with it without corruption.

So what was I, what was I gonna say about mysticism? Yeah. So. Well, this, this actually matters a lot because this, [00:29:00] this is part of the problem is it’s this sort of like internal arrogance, right? That you can engage with things in a way that other people can’t. And I also wanted to talk here a bit about, because somebody asked us our views on this in one of the comments once.

So it’s worth talking a bit about is what we thought of semen retention. Because, you know, in some conservative circles downstream of works like this, this has picked up steam again. And I think it is this Oh, so was he

Simone Collins: one of the guys who popularized this concept?

Malcolm Collins: No, I don’t think so.

Simone Collins: I, yeah, no, no.

There’s like such a big precedent, like just that whole movement in the early 19 hundreds in the United States whereby people were told that they would go blind if they masturbated. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Basically our thoughts is you should live whatever sexual lifestyle is attainable to you that will minimize the amount of time and effort you put towards erotic endeavors.

Yeah. And, and, and, and if that involves sex with your partner or masturbation [00:30:00] or anything like that, do it. But if, if you can do that through just sheer, you know, semen retention or whatever then do it that way. Right? Like, it’s a bit like saying, you know, I, I, if I never played video games at all, like, would I get more distracted on other things and stuff like that?

I think that with, with a lot of things mm-hmm. There are some people who can just completely raw dog it and that they’ll, they’ll be efficient. And then there’s other people where if they attempted something like that, they’d beaking about sex all the time. And that’s not, productive way to live your life, right?

Mm-hmm. So it, it’s what’s, what’s the productive way to engage with this stuff?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Sometimes attempting to quit something will make you even more obsessed with it, and then you spend more time on that thing than you would have if you just indulged in moderation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like when you were anorexic, you tell me you used to, all I ever

Simone Collins: thought of was food.

I mean, when you’re start, because I mean, I did the thing, I was very effective. I was actually starving. So actually all I could think of was food. ‘cause I was dying. Yeah. And you kind of do that when you’re starving and I mean Sure. When you were at that camp and you were [00:31:00] starving, eating like moss and stuff.

Oh yeah. I thought about food constantly. Yeah. All the time. Yeah. And I, I imagine, I, I don’t know what it’s like for people who have a high sex drive and choose not to masturbate, but I could imagine that it could be like that. I don’t know. But I could. It could be. And so really, like, are you more effective now spending all your mental capacity, trying not to do that?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But again, this, this could also change between populations. Like it might be easier for Mormons to do it because they’ve had this evolutionary pressure on them for so long. Well, it depends. And,

Simone Collins: You can’t just say that it causes ego depletion, for example, because we’ve seen in studies that ego depletion comes down to context.

There are some cultural context in which people believe that ego depletion isn’t. It’s, it’s the opposite. Like if you’ve had a hard day where you’ve had to make a lot of decisions, now is a really great time to make a tough decision ‘cause you’ve been warmed up. It’s like warming up, like, okay, I’m on a roll now.

Let’s do more hard things. Whereas in [00:32:00] most Western cultures, the concept of eco depletion is, oh, well I just had to make a lot of hard decisions today. Now I’ll only make bad decisions ‘cause I spent all my responsibility tokens. So a lot of it comes down to context too. And I could see maybe a no fab context in which people are like, well now because I abstain from this and that I can be disciplined with all these other things as well.

And so I agree that there’s nuance here. I just think that people need to be aware of how things are playing out with them internally. And, Hey, is this producing a good outcome? No. Well then let’s change tack.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And to, to the, the question of do I think you like build spiritual powers by semen retention?

No, absolutely not. That’s insane.

Simone Collins: Because there are no spiritual powers. You dofu. I can’t. I’m so annoyed. Okay. I’m glad he’s dead. Keep going. No,

Malcolm Collins: no. I mean, our, our, yeah, you’re not like, the racism stuff is terrible. You just hate the sex stuff.

Simone Collins: No, he [00:33:00] like do racism. Right. I mean, do, if you’re gonna be ra like he can’t even racism, right.

That, that’s my problem. He can’t do anything. Right.

Malcolm Collins: So the the, the, no, and I point out it’s not that you, if, if there are spiritual powers, our wider belief, if there are spiritual powers, they’re universally negative. Like, not things you should be messing around with, not things you should be playing with.

Just do, do not mess with them.

Simone Collins: Not even that. I, I feel like if there are spiritual powers, then you’re describing what people have always described as as, as magic or god’s work, which is really just science or physics or whatever that we don’t understand yet. Basically any technology or science that we don’t understand yet, we, we call magic.

So it’s just something I have to materialistically think about. No, I agree. I mean, no, it’s not material. No. Well, no, then you’re exists. It doesn’t exist or I haven’t discovered or wrapped my head around it yet. And either way it is going to be materialistic.

Malcolm Collins: Right. So what she’s saying, and I think it’s a a, a very good point, is that if [00:34:00] we discover magic in the future that, you know, we would build science around that magic, right?

Yes. Like we would have, we would understand the rules of it, how it worked, and we’d utilize and integrate it with our daily lives. And so if there is a, a, any sort of mystical plane that people are accessing that mystical plane is part of our reality and just part of science. And if there is special abilities or powers that people are able to access through that plane, that means there’s likely some sort of structural system within that plane that may be super advanced science or something like that.

But the point I was making wasn’t that point, Simone, it’s that. At least from what I have seen people who attempt to access anything like that plane always end up mentally corrupted. And so what I’m saying is that if it exists, if they are encountering the science of magic on the other side of, of the veil of reality it is a corrupting force for humanity rather than an uplifting force for humanity.

That’s why I’m usually kind of like almost [00:35:00] autistic is I’m just being constantly.

Why? Because lower entities will come in and violate your free will. They know. All your , they see right through you. They will not manipulate your free will unless you ask them in. I have dude, do not say that I’m gonna get killed. I’ve a hundred percent communicated with something. I’m not judging anybody.

I’m just saying, okay, be careful. The question is whether that something was actually in my imagination or in my mind, or that something was something that takes place in another dimension. Once you open that gate, it’s all bad. They have, so why is it all bad? Why? Why can’t you experience that interdimensional?

being and learn something from it, and be a better person when you come out of it. Because, because every time it gets control, it starts murdering everybody. They wind up killing everybody later. In every case. And it always starts beautiful. It always starts great. Problem is, some of it makes sense. That’s where the psychosis comes in.

Whoa. It’s going to create a giant societal crisis where most of the people are already going to get killed. Because an evil force wants conflict. So I’m saying no, no, no. It’s [00:36:00] all chaos. Stop it. This is the nature of the beast.

Malcolm Collins: but anyway, to continue here, I wanted to talk about violence. Violence in left hand tantra as per Ebola, is more symbolic or ritualistic than literal physical harm to others.

It ties into the quote unquote fierce aspects of deities like kli, who represent destruction and illusions, animal sacrifice, Bali, some tantric texts describe offering animals eeg goats in rituals, symbolizing the sacrifice of one’s lower self. Ebola mentioned this as a way to confront death and in permanence, but downplayed it as secondary to inner work warning against cruelty without metaphysical purpose.

Oh, interesting. So you can do it if you have metaphysical purpose. He’s like, no, don’t treat it as a, a shortcut. Symbolic violence or aesthetic extremes. Practices like meditating in graveyards. Oh, this guy was so edgy. Sit sitting. You alluded

Simone Collins: to earlier, something about tantric sex in graveyards. Yes.

Sitting on

Malcolm Collins: corpses was one of his called Shava. Well, the graveyards were a [00:37:00] very

Simone Collins: a, a, a common first date or second date location for you.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, that was back when, in the day when you’re doing spicy and I goth girls and come on. You know me. You know my type IDI liked my Amelia’s. Okay. The conservative goth girl was the choker from the video game.

I’m gonna make her one of the things on the Reddit.

Simone Collins: She was So your

Malcolm Collins: type. Yeah. Yeah. Come on, God. This what I’m saying, this guy’s just too gothy. I can’t imagine like a 30-year-old guy like going to a graveyard to sit on bodies. It’s like meditation or self mortification to break attachments.

Avara linked this to his ideas of heroism, quote unquote writing the tiger and facing chaos without being consumed. But it sounds like you were extremely consumed if there was like a chaos person and he is like, I’m not sure.

Have I been consumed by the forces of the chaos gods? I’d be like, you, you, you are literally like chanting with like a, a pentagram inscribed on your forehead bleeding.

Like I’m, I’m pretty sure [00:38:00] you’re all the way there. But. Let’s, let’s, let’s I wanted to go back to the broader worldview. So his worldview was profoundly anti-modern envisioning. The cosmos is divided between the solar masculine and the lunar feminine. The, the masculine was hierarchy and transcendence, which is good, and the feminine, which was bad with chaos egalitarianism and material materialism.

Humanity’s purpose is upward self-transcendence towards the quote unquote absolute individual. Strong, purposeful, and free from cultural and material bonds achieved through heredity which is interesting. Heredity is a big part of how this is achieved initiation and heroic action. So, key elements were anti egalitarianism and, and a hierarchical society.

He saw a hierarchy as. Cosmic and intrinsically good manifesting in, in, in physical, racial and social forms, but rooted in spirituality society. Okay. So

Simone Collins: when he walked down the street, he was [00:39:00] judging people’s souls because he believed that their souls were manifested in physical traits.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So like, things he saw as bad were like democracy, mass rules, we’ve talked about liberalism or individualism and socialism slash equality.

Mm-hmm.

We’re, we, instead he favored organic empires and monarchies. So again, you can see how this ideology influences some of like nick fo Yeah. There’s,

Simone Collins: there’s some there. Yeah. This kind of feeling shows up in Bronze Age mindset, for example. Yes. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: In terms of misogyny and gender roles, he saw women as inferior, independent on men, suited only to be mothers or lovers.

Feminism was a renunciation of femininity and true order. And why did he bonk one? Because he has no self-control. I’m sure. Each one one’s probably trying to convert the other, you know? Mm-hmm. And true order required patriarchal subjugation masculinity meant hyper virile war ideas. He was incredibly anti-Semitic.

He saw, he thought that Jews symbolized decadent modernity, [00:40:00] materialism and democracy. Mm-hmm. Justifying violence. He supported imperialism, paganism and a European imperium as a hierarchical renewal, viewing the US as epitomizing chaos. And I keep in mind when we look at our thinkers from well before this time period, they really love the us like Wyn would Reed, we have a do a series where I like read some of the martyrdom of man on, substack fans who are paying or whatever, like for Patreon. And he was obsessed with America. He thought America was the greatest place on earth. And a model for how all other countries should structure their societies.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. And you, you literally cite him as basically another form of profit in, in our techno puritan materials.

Yeah. And even Kurt Metzger

Malcolm Collins: although he said he was a eugenics, which is just wrong, he believed in genetics, but he wasn’t a eugenics.

Simone Collins: Well,

Malcolm Collins: by

Simone Collins: many people’s definition, if you believe in genetics, you’re obviously a eugenics. So anyway yeah, but people picked up on that

Malcolm Collins: in later works, Ola advised, quote unquote, writing the [00:41:00] Tiger using Modernity’s destructive forces for personal transcendence, rejecting collective politics for individual detachment.

Simone Collins: Wait, hold on. Explain to me again what writing the tiger means.

Malcolm Collins: So, it means to like, utilize the decadence and materialism of society as like a weight to train your soul. I, but then he did that through like sex, which seems to be doing the opposite because again, as soon as you go to the mythological, you can define anything however you want, without any, anyone you know, able to, to push back.

So I wanted to see the yes. So Beano Ro was a prominent 20th century Italian feminist and intellectual, her 1906 autobiographical novel, A woman is considered a landmark in Italian feminist literature detailing. Her rebellion against an abusive marriage, [00:42:00] societal constraints on women and her pursuit of personal freedoms, independence, and sexual autonomy.

She was openly non-monogamous, involved in leftist and progressive circles, and advocated for women’s emancipation. Qualities that aligned closely was what Ebola later condemned its feminist aberrations. Their relationship was intense and stormy set against the backdrop of Rome’s esoteric scene. Ebola was involved with Groupo, Dior and ol group, and El Maro drew from it in 1927.

Novel amo I love, therefore I Am where Ebola appears thinly veiled as a character. Bruno Telegra portrayed in a somewhat resentful or critical light. Accounts describe Ola as charismatic and magnetic in his use. Nicknamed the spider for drawing women in, but the affair ended partly because Amara wasn’t interested in monogamy and moved on to other things, including another figure from Ebola circle, Garrell parts.

She seemed to have a thing for like incredible misogynists. And [00:43:00] yeah, well because he, he, it seemed to come from his occult stuff. That, that is basically the gist of it. The, there were leftist occultic and there were right occulus and they hooked up together. And thought sex gave them magic, because of course they did.

Of

Simone Collins: course. Yeah. I I’m sure they were great for each other.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. So I wanna see what he thought about aesthetics and the profane.

Simone Collins: Hmm. What his entire existence was profane. What was profane to him.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, but I, he’s watching

Simone Collins: profanity.

Malcolm Collins: Ebola began his career as a painter in the date and futurist movements around the 1915.

God.

Simone Collins: Oh, of course. This explains everything.

Malcolm Collins: I love you so much, Simone. We we’re such a, we’re such a pair. Rege man. Rege man. Of course, I, I thought it thing in my head, but our audience has no idea what we’re talking about there except for the [00:44:00] gold. If they do

Simone Collins: chime in in the comments. We’ll,

Speaker: Well, ain’t we a pair raggedy man?

Malcolm Collins: So, producing abstract works he described as inner landscapes expressing the spirit was hermetic and esoteric references. He was influenced by vastly kowski the spirit animal, seeking an inner spiritual dimension in abstraction rather than commercial or academic art. By 1922, he abandoned painting, viewing avant-garde art as stipend by conventions and commercialized preferring philosophy and ESO terrorism.

For vola true aesthetics transcended the material, aligning with eternal truth and rejecting modern degenerate forms that lacked a connection to the transcendent or tr basically hierarchies.

All right. Next, the profane. Okay. So he sharply distinguished the sacred eternal transcendent and hierarchical from the [00:45:00] profane, modern, materialistic, and meaningless.

Simone Collins: Oh. Oh, that’s profane. Okay. Of course it is. To him,

Malcolm Collins: the profane represents the desecration of nature and the destruction of the organic cosmic worldview where everything reflects a higher meaning.

He criticized modernity for inverting things, turning the sacred into profane eeg, applying sacramental inso ability to ordinary marriages sacramental in, oh, interesting. Okay. So, he thought treating like a Christian marriage as sacramental in, in insolvable. Mm-hmm. That was profane to him. Because it, it wasn’t a super marriage, which is whatever he wanted.

It was, it was normal and profane marriage. He said, he, he said that marriage, and, and this is true to an extent, so I can see what he meant by this. He said that marriage had been degraded into a social formality. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. Yes. In love and society, profane is everything not sacrificed [00:46:00] or incorporated into a higher order leading to nihilism and detachment from tradition.

Ebola saw the profane as a hallmark of the kale yuga where material appetites dominate. So, but he just redefined his material appetites as being metaphysically nutritious.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And our whole argument around marriage is that it’s insufficiently, materialistic, that it has lost its function as a strategic business life legacy building.

Institution, and he’s like, no, we need to make it all about tantric sex and indulgence. And so, yeah, I guess that just very different conclusions. Okay. Go on.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I’m not gonna go too deep into the other stuff. I think you get the broader idea. Thanks, because I wanna

Simone Collins: have a stroke. This is, this is, I’m so deeply

Malcolm Collins: disturbed.

Here’s the gist of his worldview, right? Mm-hmm. And, and I, the reason why I wanna go into it and how silly a lot of it is when you see it and [00:47:00] how lame a lot of it is when you really get into it, is a lot of people who have only engaged with the parts of, as you saw our episode on H Guy, right? The parts of H guy’s philosophy, the fashionistas that freak out progressives, right?

And get progressives angry. They hear it and they think. That sounds really based and interesting, right? Mm-hmm. ‘cause they don’t know about it holistically. Mm-hmm. And when they dive, get into it holistically, they’re like, oh, that’s actually profoundly stupid. Yeah. They hear about a guy who’s known as a super fascist.

Right. Who thought of as, and it sounds

Simone Collins: delightful, but also, I mean, I think people, especially in, in modern times and including the left, the anti-colonial leftists, see fascism as extremely materialistic.

Malcolm Collins: Well, right. I mean, he basically saw hierarchy as in itself sacred, is the way I put it. That that is, that is [00:48:00] where he’s offered.

Yeah. But what is

Simone Collins: hierarchy if it is not based on materialistic achievement? I mean, historically it was being like, you are literally the biggest, strongest, early hominid. Right. And, and then you were the biggest, strongest, early hominid who also had lots of sticks and lots of. Food, and then it was lots of gold.

And then it was, it was, it was the biggest. And think about all the early leaders who were also like, freakishly tall. Yeah. And I wanna die easily. This is, this is all materialism

Malcolm Collins: because it is really important. To highlight the point that you’re making, which is hierarchy has no meaning.

Simone Collins: If it’s not also materialist.

Malcolm Collins: If it is, well, if it’s not observable, like if, if whatever the hierarchy, whatever you believe gives one group an advantage over another group or one individual and advantage over another individual. Mm-hmm. If that is not [00:49:00] something that is easily observable through how that individual interacts with the world or society through the flourishing, pre produced by that individual or that culture, or that group’s interaction mm-hmm.

Then the hierarchy is completely non meaningful. Yeah. And the, the reality is, is that the reason why people like this guy instead. Move towards the idea of spiritual hierarchies. And I know there’s not just spiritual hierarchies. You see this among mystics all the time when they’re like, well, people like me who are more in tune with the whatever, right?

Like they self define a, a, a form of hierarchy that they can only observe from their own subjective reality. So they, they take this position because it allows them to always be at the top of the hierarchy without having to objectively prove themselves in reality. Mm-hmm. If you, if you look at us, [00:50:00] I am like within any individual hierarchy, I am, I am only so good as I provably am.

Right? I am only you know, as, as an intellectual. So good as smart people or the, the, the, a large amount of smart people follow me and care what I have to say. And these are the people who are gonna influence the direction that society goes. And so they take on my ideas and then they build whatever the next movement is around my ideas.

Like I, when we point out now that we have one of the largest subreddits now this subreddit is, is I think probably larger in terms the weekly interaction. ‘cause Reddit is just larger now than the red pill ever was, right? And so that means that if you go you know, 10 years in the future and we’re able to keep this thing from getting banned, which is why we need mods, please reach out 10 years into the future.

Our our, there’s gonna be a generation of redditors, conservative redditors who were raised was in this intellectual and aesthetic [00:51:00] ecosystem, and then come out and being like, oh, it’s, it’s the base camp intellectual ecosystem. Right? Like, I, I know that in the same way that I would say this about the red pill, right?

Like Simone and I were red pillars, like when we’re critical of red pill, I think people think we’re being critical of something that we don’t consider ourselves still solidly within not, not, not even like former members. I’m not somebody who’s like bitter about the red pillar or anything like that.

I, I, I think it made some mistakes. And I think that it, it, you know, systemically teaches some things a bit wrong, but I think it was a very important movement for society to have. And I think that it was a movement that we needed to go through to get to something like maga or to get to the modern religious revival movements.

We’re beginning to see that are not happening in a traditional context. But that’s another episode. Mm-hmm. As to why an, another reason why mysticism is, is really, really bad is if what is fundamentally true about reality is subjective to the self. If you get in a disagreement with somebody and you have [00:52:00] different perspectives about what is metaphysically true, like if I disagree with his perspective on these things, he could just say, well.

I, I believe in my subjective reality and because it’s my subjective reality, therefore, you are wrong. And if there are people watching us and trying to determine what objective reality is, objective reality becomes a dominance competition or, or popularity competition among mystic gurus, which is, well, how they always end up going so crazy in wackadoo, right?

Because there’s no subjective way to call them out on. Well, that’s not true, right? Like objectively, let me prove to you that is not true. Finally I, I do understand this idea. ‘cause you’re like, where is his vitalism? His vitalism is in the self ownership that he preached to this idea that you can cultivate your own spirit until you become Oh, I heard

Simone Collins: that as self-owned.

Which 100%. He’s a walking self phone. But go on. [00:53:00] You you mean like that he’s just taken radical responsibility of himself, like spiritually or something.

Malcolm Collins: Go

Simone Collins: on. But as

Malcolm Collins: you point out, you’re actually advocating all real responsibility for yourself when you detach objective judgements about whether or not you are doing good things.

Mm-hmm. Right? Like whether or not you are moving in a good direction, whether or not you are actually improving. These are objective things that can be measured. And if you can’t measure them now he’d just say, well, like every day I’m writing the tiger through my tantric sex on corpses. Mm-hmm. But like, and he’d be like, no, it is hard for me to do.

I don’t, I don’t like doing it. And it’s like, then you’re just making it weirder.

Simone Collins: It’s hard work. My God. Get a life.

Wow,

Malcolm Collins: man. And I do like that B called out this guy, by the way, I, I went [00:54:00] to Margaret Sanger because his idea sounded a lot, you know, when, when you follow Planned Parenthood. Yeah, like her ideas really well, remember she thought different races had different soul qualities. And the reason she wanted to stop abortions is because she thought that there were only so many souls in pre-life and there were too many low quality souls being born.

And so we needed to stop people from having kids, especially blacks. In her mind,

Simone Collins: you mean the reason she wanted to make abortions more readily available is because there were low quality souls being, being brought into. We were pulling from the bottom of the barrel, like, oh man, can’t keep up the supply.

Malcolm Collins: That’s basically, yes. That’s basically her. You’re gonna toss in

Simone Collins: the gimp souls. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Thought we were scraping from the bottom of like the metaphysical soul barrel and that society was running out of souls. So we were only getting like the defective ones anymore.

Simone Collins: Defective souls. Wow. Yeah. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: [00:55:00] But no, it is, it is unfortunately.

Well

Simone Collins: these people aren’t having kids, so we can all just rest assured that this is all being slowly deleted and Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: the people whose ideologies are downstream of Spiritualistic vitalism, and this is, this is this key thing. He embodies Spiritualistic Vitalism and everyone I’ve ever known who has gone down the path of Spiritualistic Vitalism has had no kids.

If your vitalism of is, is not a form that is objectively observable in the real world and objectively cause on the real world, yeah, you are going to eradicate yourself from the timeline and your people from the timeline. Mm-hmm. And so many people, when they hear vitalism, they try to drift towards spiritual vitalism, which I think is one of the worst.

Poisons not just in in modern society, but in human history and, and we argue in other ones. You can watch our video on witches and stuff like that, that this is what is meant with the concept of [00:56:00] a witch. This, this, I know. We’re,

Simone Collins: we’re super though, like right now, we’re, we are Techo Puritanism, or sorry, techo Puritans.

That is our religion. Our religion is techno puritanism, and right now we’re, we’re leaning into our most active holiday, which is, is sort of a rough running month, kind of based on different conditions called Future Day, where we encourage our kids to think about the far future and long-termism and to sort of learn how to lean into self-improvement and contributing to making the world and, and long-term human flourishing a priority of them instead of just, you know, instant gratification.

I think we’re talking about a lot is the subtle forces that you to not. Can make the world a better place to not improve yourself. And we call that the baso lisc, it, we personify it as like this evil force. Not, well, not evil per se, but this malicious force that will drive you. It’s a culling [00:57:00] force. Exactly.

And, and so we, we try to explain to our kids that it’s just, it’s just, it, it’s the same thing as God to us. It’s just, it’s, it’s God on days when he’s removing it. Work

Malcolm Collins: mentalization of

Simone Collins: like, I was, I was, I was explaining it to our son Octavian like this because he loves army men right now, and like military, everything.

And I’m like, okay, so look at this Green Army man. When he is on our side, you know, we, we love him. He’s our friend, right? Mm-hmm. But what if we were the enemy? Would, would we be afraid of him? Yes. Because we’re the enemy and he’s going to destroy us. That is exactly what the baus is. The baus is. The guy on our side who is fighting for what we care about.

And you only need to be afraid of him if you are our enemy and his enemy. Yeah. But he’ll come after the weakest and worst elements of you. And so when I think about mysticism, I see it from a techno puritan standpoint [00:58:00] as a force ultimately of good, of the basilisk, in that it is systematically removing the weak-minded and indulgent of, of humanity.

It, it is a test and if you fail the test, you do not matter anymore. And that’s fine. So I

Malcolm Collins: think that this is a really interesting point that you’re making here that I wanna expand on a little bit. Specifically theologically speaking the, the, the, the, the devil to us, the bas synonyms, right?

Mm-hmm. Is in, in, in some forms of traditional Christianity is something that only punishes bad people when bad people do bad things. Mm-hmm. But if you look at the devil that’s actually in the Bible, that is not the devil’s core role. It is not to punish bad people. It is to test good people to make them better, but punish them if they fall or fail the test so that they don’t fail the test next time.

Right. Or, or, or punish them [00:59:00] so severely that they’re no longer part of the community or part of the population or part of the gene pool. Right? So, many people see the, the, the devil as only pun, which I’ve never understood, right? Like, okay, so the devil is bad because the devil punishes bad people.

Well, punishing bad people is good, right? Yeah. Like, are you

Simone Collins: mad at the police for arresting criminals? You only hate the police if you’re a criminal. Right?

Malcolm Collins: It’s the devil is bad because the devil tempts good people. And I’m like, but if good people are made stronger through temptation and better able to resist all of the temptations of life then isn’t that, does he punish them when they don’t give into temptation?

No, but he does punish them when they do give into temptation. Yes. So like that doesn’t seem like a, a holistically, and obviously this is where I think, you know, when you’re reading the Book of Job or something like that, people are like, why is God and the Devil or two com compartmentalizations of the [01:00:00] Divine having like a friendly conversation with each other?

And it’s because the devil is not a holistically negative thing. He was trying to show. Anyone can eventually be broken if he goes far enough. And the point was made there, and for all of us that no, some people are just holistically made stronger through the tests that you give them.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, and you know, no, he, he’s given everything back at the end of that, his wives and kids, of course, it doesn’t matter to them.

Right. You know, they, they still died, but their, their role in everything was still sort of played out. The point being is he was not given the ability to punish him when he did not give into temptation. Right. The, the, the punishment. A can be part of the temptation or it can be a, a a like a, a punishment for giving into temptation, but it is not punishment in and of itself.

Anyway, I think that that’s a really good point, Simon.

Note here if you’re like, well, he was an angel who rebelled against God and waged some sort of like civil war in heaven, , which means that he couldn’t have [01:01:00] been a partition of God. , There is no reason to believe any of that if you don’t believe Revelations was canonical, and I do not believe Revelations was canonical.

And you can go into our track series about why we think that.

Malcolm Collins: Them.

Simone Collins: And I think that this man is trash, and I’m not gonna back down on that. I, well, no. I’m always open to having my mind changed. Guys, tell me why this man was so great. May, maybe I can, I I lo I love a good steel man. I don’t know. So someone help me out here.

Why, why is this man not utter trash? Chime in. Love you guys. And over and out. I, I gonna tear my eyes out,

Malcolm Collins: okay? Love you. And, and by the way, for people who wonder why we argue so fervently that. The, the devil is a compartmentation of the divine is because if you believe that devil is a completely separate, supernatural entity, then you are definitionally a polytheist. You’re, you’re just a [01:02:00] trans poist.

You’re a polytheist defining themselves as a monist, a closeted,

Simone Collins: a closeted. Self toone? No, no. They’re

Malcolm Collins: just trans. It’s like a trans person who says, I’m a woman. I’m like, you’re, you’re, you’re definitionally not a woman. When they’re like, I’m a monotheist. I’m like, you’re definitionally not a monotheist. You believe in two divine entities.

And then they’re like, well, one entity is subservient to the other entity. It’s created by another entity. And we point out that’s actually really common in polytheistic traditions that in, in, in like the Greek tradition or something, there’s so one God that created all the other gods and the other gods are subservient.

You’re just defining him as not a god. Which is why I call it trans pol of them. Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is done by some religions or some iterations of Christianity from our perspective because they know that they’re not supposed to be ISTs, and so they just define themselves as not ISTs without having to deal with the theological implications of believing in multiple, supernatural divine entities.

Thank you. There are track three if you wanna know [01:03:00] more. Simone, I got you The update on the site Done today. Thank you. Is the new features. So it’s easy to share individual scenarios now from our fab.ai, which I’m excited about. And I’m, I mean even though I’m working on stuff like this is a sign of how stable everything else is. Been working on making sure that you can cross platform, load up your scenarios ‘cause some people are having issues with that.

And I am,

Simone Collins: We

Malcolm Collins: need Reddit mods from people who are like in our community and known that can’t be complete randos. So if you’re interested let us know because the subreddit no is the largest in terms of like active usership conservative subreddit, bigger than Joe Rogans.

So we gotta keep that deleted.

Simone Collins: Yeah. This is just based

Malcolm Collins: conservative stuff and. M Mulder’s most forbidden investigation tunnels, molder. Why would there be tunnels beneath a synagogue? Scully, [01:04:00] I don’t think we should be here.

I don’t think we should be asking these questions.

Simone Collins: Was that our conservative or base camp? It’s base camp. Okay. That checks out.

Malcolm Collins: There, there’s an Austria, then big buff, the Doge, and it says, we shall stop the Turkish, expand expansion and protect Europe and then’s Austria. Now a little dog Austrian president is asking all women to wear a hijab in solidarity with Muslims to fight rampant Islamophobia.

Simone Collins: Did that actually happen?

That’s amazing. I bet that did happen. But that’s. It is both hard to believe, but why would someone say it if it didn’t happen? But I’m too tired to look it up right now and we’re not gonna cover it, so unless we do cover it

Malcolm Collins: anyway. So, very, very fun. And yeah, and, and today’s episode is gonna be an interesting one for me because I don’t know that much [01:05:00] about this guy.

Like I’m, I just started studying him today and I was working today, so, you know, I got as much in as I could in terms of understanding this new philosophical framework, and I wanted to share it with you guys and talk through it, because I think it’s interesting. I’m excited, but I’m not an, an expert by any means on this stuff.

I, I generally do not like philosophers. I find that, oh, is that

Simone Collins: what he is? He’s not just some kind of.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he’s a philosopher. Interesting. Or a, like a, like a theorist of like world frameworks and stuff like that.

Simone Collins: Who put him on your radar?

Malcolm Collins: Actually AI put him on my radar. Really? Oh, yeah. I was trying to learn about the sort of ancestral roots as some of the new strains in the new, right.

Mm-hmm.

And it’s specifically like Baps ideology. Yeah. And it pointed him as like the predecessor of some of these.

Simone Collins: And un does he have a big following.

Malcolm Collins: Unheard did a piece saying that he loved by the new Right. You know, and that he’s like a big philosopher. Well, you’ll, you’ll understand. You’ll [01:06:00] see where he’s coming from and we’ll talk about where we agree and disagree.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Speaker 2: Sh, do you hear that? Yes. Iny, come with me. Come with me. My God. Sh My God. Okay, who’s gonna go first? Me. I’m Okay. Go, go, go. Hold on. Take to the rails. Did you hear something?

Oh, what, what? What? Thank you. What is I dying?

Speaker 3: I love you.

What? Thank you. I love you. Thank you. Watch. Thank you. I said thank you.

Watch. Oh, he gave you back your magnet tiles.[01:07:00]

Thank you.

Speaker 4: Look at all these toys. Oh, future debris. Woo. Whoa, Andy, look at that. It’s a train set. I know, I know. That debris

Speaker 3: stick. That’s so cool.

You see? You wanna see this again? Who? You what? What?

He laughed. Oh my God. Do you hear him? Oh my God. He laughed. They’re like us. Do you hear him? What is it? What is it? I in this box, this is yours. I did what? What is it? Woo. What is it? I know this is for me. No, look, it’s, it’s Octavian helicopter [01:08:00] toasty. That means that that must be toasty. Octavian. It’s a mermaid.

Speaker 4: It’s a mermaid doll. Just what you asked for. Yeah. Yeah.

Toasty. That’s, that’s Octavian helicopter. What? And look at that toasty look. What’s this? I, I opened? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I did not, I didn’t know that was long. So I open it. Andy, that must mean that this is for you girl, Andy. What’s this? Look? He puts tape here. What is in there? He put tape we made to tell Dad, look.

Indy, what’s this? Oh, outside God. Oh,

so many presents. Look at that. A beautiful train set and toasty. Show me. What did you get? What did you get? Like, I think I see something. [01:09:00] What do you see? It’s under the place. Oh, what is it? What is it? This mask. Open it up. Okay. Dad. What is it?

In this eye-opening episode, we dive deep into one of the most bizarre political phenomena of our time: How did Western leftists (and especially progressive women) once celebrate the 1979 Iranian Revolution… only for the regime they helped bring to power to later execute tens of thousands of them?

We show the iconic photo of two leftist women holding up Khomeini’s picture — one was executed 10 years later, the other fled to Sweden after escaping execution.

And shockingly — many modern leftists (Hassan Piker, Jackson Hinkle, PinkNews-aligned voices, etc.) are STILL defending or downplaying the current Iranian regime during the massive 2025–2026 protests while simultaneously claiming America is worse.

But we don’t just dunk — we try to seriously understand the psychology: audience capture, sexual/ethnic progressive hierarchies, anti-Western civilizational loathing, the “screaming girl exponential effect” (South Park style), and why atrocities against protesters (machine-gunning crowds, false-flag kill-zones, body-bag photos) simply don’t register for many on the far left.

Then comes the uncomfortable mirror: A significant faction on the dissident right (Groyper/Fuentes-adjacent) enthusiastically cheers for a vision of government that is structurally almost identical to the current Iranian theocracy — just swap “Supreme Leader + Council of Experts” for “Catholic autocracy / monarchy / inquisition / 12th century governance” and remove democracy entirely.

We go through direct quotes and show why cheering for this vision is functionally the same mistake the 1979 leftist women made.

Episode Transcript:Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. People are wondering why we haven’t done the Iran one yet, and I wanted to wait until we had a really interesting and mentally engaging take that we could do on this.

Yeah. And we are gonna be focused on two core areas today. We are going to be focused on how modern western leftists help bring in this regime. And moderate secular leftists brought this regime into power even was in Iran. And. Why they’re fighting against it falling apart. But then we’re also going to, no, if you’re, if you’re surprised by that, here is an image of two leftist girls.

You can see they look like hippies celebrating in 1979 right in holding up his picture, you know, the the current leader and the ayatollah. And it said he later had 30,000 leftists executed. And these two specific girls in this pictured the girl in front, Maria Rafi, was executed by Islamist 10 years [00:01:00] later.

And the girl at the back, Sahara Mohammed, escaped from Mar Grand and took asylum in Sweden four years after the revolution.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh.

Malcolm Collins: And this is, didn’t work

Speaker 3: out for them.

Malcolm Collins: This is one of the types of things on our new subreddit that’s like huge now. That we need mods for. So do reach out if you’re interested in that.

Because we are now the largest conservative Reddit on Reddit, bigger than Joe Rogan, bigger than Asma Gold definitely bigger than any of the mainstream conservative ones. But I think if you look at the comments on the Reddit and stuff like that, people were laughing at this.

They were laughing at this and saying stuff like, it’s a shame that she had to escape the regime that she brought into power. And I would actually like to hold a mirror to many people on right, right now, which is being as stupid as these two girls were putting a regime into power that told them exactly what it planned to do to people like them exactly the way it wanted to operate. The other thing that we’re gonna go into a lot, which I find to be a very interesting topic to discuss is all of the [00:02:00] modern leftists, you know, whether it’s Asan or anyone else, and we’ll go over who they are, what their platforms is, like pink news and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. Who are standing the regime right now saying the regime really isn’t that bad, that it’s worse to be in America than it is to be there. And that all of these atrocities that we’re hearing about aren’t really happening. And I find this to be very fascinating because I wanted to, like, I, I know you can gaw and point at them and say, ha ha, look at the, the idiot.

Right. Which I think a lot of people on the right are, are justly doing right now. But I also wanna be like, I, I don’t, I want to understand how this ideology works in their heads. Right. I want to understand, yeah. Like what are they

Speaker 3: saying about the pictures of body bags?

Malcolm Collins: How do they actually think?

But it’s No, but it’s not just that. It’s like, the, they were able to find endless, like the larger leftist machine was able to find. Endless atrocities in Gaza, and yet they’re literally just opening machine guns on civilians here. [00:03:00] There have been cases recently where they dress up like protestors to lead other protestors to kill zones.

Oh, what? And they do this to specifically, so descent among the protesters. ‘cause they all hate each other.

Speaker 3: Oh. At least distrust each other. That’s,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. But I, I wanna like go, go into. Like, how, how is it that they actually don’t care about this? Because I, I know that it’s getting through to some of them to some extent, right?

Like, and, and they’re trying to downplay it because it goes against whatever their larger agenda is. And people will say, well, they just hate the west. They just hate the, you know, America. I wanna understand like. But why so pathologically that it in any sort of logically coherent framework leads to these outcomes.

And I think that a part of it actually comes from, if I’m just gonna lead whizzes, it comes from the effect discussed in South Park

Speaker: What’s the garlic effect? The law of physics that states, if one girl screams for something, it will make other girls scream and then [00:04:00] it grows exponentially until all girls within a five mile radius of screaming.

Speaker 7: So how do boy bands use that? All they do is make videos showing tons and tons of girls screaming for the boy bands. Once you get girls screaming, you can’t stop ‘em. They’re crazy.

Malcolm Collins: ? And that a lot of the modern leftist movement is just basically delusional women standing for a form of like authoritarianism that it’s, it’s not, it’s not whether they understand it or don’t understand it, they find it to be alluring.

And this sort of wider social movement sort of bubbles some people to the top and some perspectives to the top that don’t need to pass any sort of logical filter. That that’s not the. Point of the opinion, it’s about filling a certain Hmm. For a larger zeitgeist. Mm-hmm. So that’s, that’s what we’re gonna go into there.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: But before I get into that, I want to go in, into what I was saying and I said that there is a [00:05:00] portion of the right that is just as foolish as these two girls hanging outside of a cab. Right. And this portion of the right is of course the groupers in the larger Fuentes movement. And people know that I’ve, I’ve said like things like I’m, I’m against the cancellation of him.

I am for platforming him. I think the ways that people like Ben Shapiro have treated him has been absolutely atrocious. But I also just want to be like, but. He is not shy about the type of government he wants to set up. And so if you look at the government that we have was in Iran right now, if you’re not familiar with it, it is a religious theocracy where they have a supreme leader and then he appoints a council of religious scholars and leaders.

And I’d I’d point out that these are, you know, genuine religious scholars and leaders. This is not like, crazy people or like a cultish version of this branch of Islam, right? Like this is a real iteration of this branch of Islam and that the [00:06:00] laws that they are putting into place are the laws found within Islamic texts.

And we’re talking

Speaker 3: Shia, not Sunni Islam, correct.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But it’s, you know, Sunni Islam practice, as the text says, is just about as brutal as Shia Islam practice as the text says. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And we’ll get into here where people are like, oh, come on. You know? In, in, in Christianity, you know, nothing is, it’s our, our religious books aren’t that brutal if we practice as the text.

And it’s like, they really are, like, even Charlie Kirk pointed out when somebody was like, oh, religion, like Christianity is really about loving and blah, blah, blah. And he goes, well, you know, there’s a lot of things that you get stoned for, you know,

like not honoring your father and mother or being gay or, you know, a number of other things.

Right? Like, we have to be realistic about what he’s actually saying because I think a lot of people, just like these two leftists did, if you wanna understand how you could be a young leftist girl who is just angry with the system and not really listening to what the leaders of your movement are saying they want to do when they’re in power.

Mm-hmm. [00:07:00] It, it. I think it’s easy to not, this is not me dunking on the grapes or FU or anything like this. It’s easy to say how this happens to people. By looking at what I think even most groupers know, Nick Fuentes say he wants to put in power as a system.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So just to, to go for some quotes here, for example, he says, I’m a 12th century man, f the UN and the internet and democracy.

So note here, when Iran is shutting off the internet all the time, when people are saying things that go against the religious order, they have no, no. They also have an elected body that sort of operates under their religious body, which seems similar to the way Nick would probably set things up if he was setting it up.

Mm-hmm. He’d have a religious body with religious scholars trying to do things in a 12th century style, as he says. And then underneath that, some sort of a democratic body, right? Like, I’m not even saying like. Just full theocracy here. Right. And would he be the, would this be the type of government who would regularly shut down the internet and free speech?

Well, he says he’s, he’s against the inter like very clearly, right? He [00:08:00] says, you know, what has democracy gotten us obesity, low rates of literacy. It’s given us divorce, abortion, gay marriage, liberalism, pornography, a a again, these are all things that the, they’re also against in Iran that the theocratic government of Iran is also against.

He says, that’s what democracy has gotten us. Ghettos and crime and political correctness. Diversity, yeah. That’s the track record of democracy. And so I note here as we go further here, because you might say, well, I do agree with him on the diversity point. What you’re gonna notice pretty soon is when he says diversity, he means non-Catholics.

He is very clear that he wants the type of government he puts up to be a a, a Catholic, in a very Catholic government like this. And so I think that we need to go back to what did Catholics in the 12th century do to Christians who were not Catholics? Right. You know, because again, he’s, he’s signaling to you, and this reminds me of a story I’ve always had of a

Speaker 3: friend of, were there friends who were not Catholic in the 12th century?

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. They were [00:09:00] killed. But very severely. Martin

Speaker 3: Luther didn’t exist in the 12th century.

Malcolm Collins: There were non Protestant, non-Catholic factions of Christianity. They were just entirely genocide.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: the, the reason you don’t know I wasn’t aware is because they were, they done be

Simone Collins: dead.

Malcolm Collins: They were systemically exterminated.

Okay. I think there’s like one surviving faction. And they’re basically just an earlier iteration of Protestants. A lot of them believe stuff very similar to what Protestants today believe. They were just more systematically exterminated. So TL no, but the, the, the reason that this gets to me because it’s all fun in jokes like here, like it was for these two girls riding in the car.

Right. Okay. Clearly they’re like, oh, they had heard people. And I could go over quotes, but it’s probably boring of a lot of people at the time, like in the US being like, are you not listening to what the leaders of your movement are saying? Hmm. But it reminds me of a, actually a, a, a Jewish guy I know who had to escape the Holocaust.

Older guy grandfather of a girl I was dating. And he had this story about how he literally like tried [00:10:00] to go door to door within his Jewish community with a, a, a copy of amp and said, you need to read this. You need to read what he’s saying he’s going to do you effing. Like, like he, he’s laid it out, okay, this isn’t a joke.

He clearly wants to do this, right? Like, and he went through the community door to door with the book. And eventually he became sort of a pariah in his community and was seen as a crazy person. I’ve told you this story before. And so he eventually broke out of his parents’ house in the middle of the night shattered his girlfriend’s window and ran away with her.

Unfortunately he made. Catastrophically stupid move of running away to Poland. And then when Poland was taken running away to Russia, which then when they tried to genocide everyone, I think he then went to China before coming to the United States. Basically just the wrong direction. But the, the point [00:11:00] being is that, you know, you can have these moments in history where certain parties are signaling what they want to do.

And this matters because you can be like, well, Nick Fuentes is a fringe political figure. And yet Joe Rogan joked on his show recently that if we were gonna put a Catholic, you know, presidential Republican candidate in place, then Nick Foes would be a good candidate for this. Don’t worry, I’ll get to the Iran stuff really quickly.

But I just wanna continue with this because I think it’s important to understand these girls. We need to understand why somebody like Nick Fuentes seems desirable within our own community, even though he’s signaling all the same things. He’s signaling a government exactly like this, that he wants to set up.

And by the way, if you’re wondering about the scale of the atrocities we’re talking about in Iran right now, we’re talking about like 20,000 people dead potentially at this point. Just gunned down in the streets. It’s, it’s, it’s horrifying. So he says Catholic autocracy pretty strong, pretty strong record.

Catholic monarchy, Catholic monarchy and just war and Crusades and inquisitions. No, he, he, he’s saying he wants to do this stuff. Right. The crusades largely justified, I’m gonna argue the inquisitions were [00:12:00] sometimes in a later period carried out much better than the Protestant witch hunts. But yeah, you argue

Speaker 3: in the prag is go to crafting religion that like.

Essentially there was due process and logic and a burden of proof required that you didn’t see with Protestant witch hunts, where it was just kind of more delusional. So

Malcolm Collins: Right. But the point I’m making here is you see very few Protestants today. You wouldn’t hear me as like fervent as I am on some of this stuff, saying we need to go back to aggressive witch hunts within, like America’s cities and stuff like that.

Right? Like, I understand that they effed that up. I have said that you should, I mean, well

Speaker 3: you, you’ve jokingly said on many occasions, and we’ve certainly implied heavily, you can’t abide by a witch and we hate witches and we’ve made fun of all the Etsy spells and we talk about

Malcolm Collins: Right. But I have not, I have not said that we need to go back to the types of witch hunts they had in the early Protestant movement.

Sure. We don’t wanna

Speaker 3: create a police that goes around. Arresting [00:13:00] people for being witches,

Malcolm Collins: but, but he’s signaling that this is actively, and when he brings us to the Inquisition and stuff like this, the Inquisition is also Protestants, right? Like there’s inquisitions that targeted Protestants. Yes. And Mormons.

And you know, if you’re, if you’re anything else out here, just, just be aware of that. And Catholic heritage, if you’re Catholic. And slightly the wrong way, way. So just be aware that this is what he’s signaling. Right. And if you look at other things he said, for example, he says, I want this country to have a Catholic media, a Catholic Hollywood, a Catholic government.

I want this to be a Catholic occupied government. So if you contrast that with say what the Ayatollah would’ve said during this period, who would’ve said I want this country to have an a Muslim media, a Muslim Hollywood, and a Muslim government.

Right? Like, this is what he wanted, this is this structure that he wanted. And, and he, he’s noted very cl clearly here. He, he says that Catholicism is more Christian than Protestantism. He, he is very, very clear on this [00:14:00] stuff. And he’ll say stuff like, we’re in a Holy War. We need to make them die in that war.

And, and, and note here. Or, or I want a supreme leader, totalitarian Christian dictator, even using the terms of the Iranian state to sort of describe the government he wants. And I think that the mistake that people make when they hear all of this, as I think these girls did, is they’re like, well, we’re on the same side now.

Surely they won’t come after us just because they’re saying they plan to come after us once they’re in power.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and that well look, when we meet with the, the Muslim like leaders and our protestor communities meet with them. They’re not like murdering us at those meetings and stuff like that.

Right. So they like they, who would do that? How would they actually go that far? You know, how would they, I mean, I just think it’s very important that you, that you look at the face value of what somebody is saying their goals. They are. Because you can find yourself supporting catastrophically stupid things for [00:15:00] yourself without realizing that you’re supporting catastrophically stupid things for yourself because you, you think that it’s a joke or a protest or an f you to the man without understanding what happens when they get into power.

And, and also how bad it can go. So suppose, you know, you go back to these girls back in the time and they’d explain this to me, but they’re like, you don’t understand, like the ayatollah is like a cool guy. Like, look, I, I drove by a car holding his picture.

Right? Like, and he’s gonna appoint like religious scholars who have appointed, spent their whole lives like studying their religion and, you know, didn’t you know that like Islam is the religion of love. Right. And like, and you can point out here, people can be like, well, Catholicism really is the religion.

And I’d be like, even Catholics know they’ve got some really dark periods from like the 12th century to today. And, and they can be like, well these modern religious scholars, they’re not like that. They wouldn’t advocate for things like that. And it’s like, I think

Speaker 5: they might.

Malcolm Collins: And, and you know, once they have total power they might, so now I wanna go to, before I go further, do you have any thoughts, Simone?[00:16:00]

Speaker 3: I just wanna hear more. I wanna understand why the leftist influencers that are really big online. Have come out in favor of Iran.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, well, I mean, the reason I went over that first thing is I think that whenever somebody looks unbelievably foolish to you and, and you just can’t understand how they would do it, you need to look for a, a simulacrum of what they were doing that you can mentally emulate with.

Oh, okay. So

Speaker 3: you’re, you’re trying to set the premise of, alright, maybe people cannot understand caliphates, but they can maybe understand. The Catholic equivalent of a caliphate.

Malcolm Collins: You can, you can, what I’m, what I’m saying is the Catholic

Speaker 3: bureaucracy

Malcolm Collins: is, if, if it’s, you know, if you wanna understand, like these girls cheering for a guy who’s saying, I want to set up a theocratic state that will eventually exterminate you.

Yeah. You know, this is no different than a Protestant or an atheist cheering for the groupers. Right. Like, th this [00:17:00] is a, they’re, they’re very explicit in their long-term goals. Right. Like, and they can say, well, we’re a big tent movement for now, as these guys did back then. Yeah. But they won’t always be right.

Like, once they have authority they’ve, they’ve laid out what they want that authority system to look like and what they want that media control system and that education control system to look like. Mm-hmm. And so it may not seem as cool or edgy if you’re looking at the type of conservatism that we represent.

Right. But it’s a type of conservatism that. Is, is realistic in terms of being cogent with the long-term, thriving of most of the parties in the current conservative umbrella.

Speaker 5: Hmm. Right.

Malcolm Collins: And, and I think that, that, that’s, that’s why you know, instead of just saying, oh, they hate America, they hate all things, the left, oh, they were totally duped, don’t, don’t fall into the hole where you so strawman your opponent that you lose the ability to understand what they were actually thinking in the moment.

And the easiest way to do that is to [00:18:00] see it from within your own party.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Because I think most people who watch this show can probably understand you know, liking and enjoying seeing somebody like Nick Fuentes, you know? Totally. Throw Pi Morgan into a trash bag, right? Like, that was hilarious. Right?

Like, but, but we have to be aware of what at the end of the day he represents. And, and what would happen if he won or became the face of the conservative party.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Next I wanna go to Hassan Piker. So before I get into these folks, which I’ll go into, because Hassan Piper is the number one leftist streamer right now.

So is

Speaker 3: that, is that, is that true? Like it’s not destiny? It’s not because I don’t, I don’t know who the top leftist streamers are. They follow a lot of leftist content creators, but streamers, I don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: He is the, the top. And he’s been beaten by Smic Gold. He used to be the top top and he has been, ‘cause he’s been losing followers a lot recently.

Speaker 3: OMG Gold is not a leftist streamer. Oh, but you’re just saying in terms of just the commentary. Streeters,

Malcolm Collins: he top streamer, period.

Speaker 3: Whoa. [00:19:00] Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Wow. Or political streamer. I think there was one above him. And then ASM Gold became the top political streamer and he’s been crashing out since then. Mostly since Ade.

Did you know he shocked Kaya again? There’s a new video that they can look like. He’s gone back to it. He just can’t look at our video about why Muslims can’t help but shack dogs. I mean, it’s just a cultural difference. It’s not like, I’m not trying to be as Islamophobic here or something. We, we, we point out that some cultural groups just have a very like the young Turks who his, his cousin named his organization after killed 80,000 dogs when they took power and saw it as like this big progressive thing to do.

Right. Wasn’t it

Speaker 3: for rabies control though?

Malcolm Collins: The 80,000 dogs? No, that wasn’t for rabies control. That was just more for like, cleaning up the city. Oh. Well they didn’t just like murder them. They put them all on an island where they starved to death and aid each other. So slightly worse. But

Speaker 3: thunderdome

Malcolm Collins: them.

Speaker 3: That’s all.

Malcolm Collins: Side note, side note to, to, to go further here. If you look at his arguments on stream, so I’ve like taken time to watch him on stream and we’ll go into quotes in a second, but I wanna get his [00:20:00] larger like idea. Like he clearly struggles at time to come up with an argument about how they’re like worse than America.

But the argument he eventually comes up with, and I can understand it from his perspective. So you gotta, you gotta see the world from his perspective. Okay? Take a step back. He does not mean what you immediately take him to mean. So if you’re like an idiot like I dubs or something, which we’ll get to, he genuinely believes that like.

You’re allowed to like sing and dance on the streets. In, in, in I Iran, which you can, you, you sort of can, was in the capitol. Now this was because of a previous protest, but for a long time it was illegal. And this guy would’ve grown up with it being illegal and it still risks the jail symptoms. So, the, the, just for clarification, right.

Okay. Wow. But he’ll, he will say things that are one true ish he’ll say that like they’re really chill to trans people in Iran. Like they’re, they’re, they’re unusually protran.

Speaker 3: Well, and that’s isn’t that It is, I believe, [00:21:00] true that there are Canadians and United States citizens who travel to Iran for.

Gender transition surgery because it has been pioneered there more effectively and more cost effectively I should say.

Malcolm Collins: So this isn’t So it, this, this requires context. Yes, but it’s a factually true statement. It’s so in Islam not, not all branches of Islam, but was in a few branches that goes on. The appropriate thing if you are a a same sex attracted male or a same sex attracted female is to be forced to undergo gender transition.

Right? I

Speaker 3: mean, it, it makes on a surface level logical sense, right? If, if you are, if, if you have a woman attracted to a woman, the equation is incorrect. We need to have a man attracted to a woman. So what’s going to solve the equation is to turn one set of that equation into a man. And

Malcolm Collins: so they, there

Speaker 3: you go.

Malcolm Collins: A lot of gay people to unelect undergo this surgery.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Where things, but that means that there has been, because of this [00:22:00] forced transition an unusual level of medical innovation in Iran and specifically cost effective medical innovation. E exactly. In places like the UK and the United States, people need to ethically transition.

People have to, to go through all this approval. You can’t do harm to people. Whereas they don’t gotta worry about

Malcolm Collins: the future lawsuits, they don’t worry about medical practice, they don’t worry about. And so you’re able

Speaker 3: to get genuinely innovative medical innovate like developments that are so useful that genuinely, you know, trans people in Canada and the United States and other countries that are very progressive go to Iran to get to get gender affirming care.

And, and when asked about the conflict between their morality. Their progressivism and their choice to support a medical system in a country that forcibly transitions people, they’re like, well, capitalism ruined everything. I can’t afford anything. Right? But so you’ve gotta

Malcolm Collins: understand this from [00:23:00] Hassan’s brain perspective when like he’s cheering to the crowd, right?

Hassan, I am sure, is very aware that you will be executed for being gay in Iran, right? Mm-hmm. Like, that this is a, a regular thing. You’ll be executed for being Christian in Iran, although there’s actually only one state official case of that. Most of the cases are extra judicial. And they used to kill Jews more, but they don’t kill them as much anymore.

So

Speaker 3: wait. Extra. So that means you have like a get out of jail free card if you kill a Christian, because No, it means, means them anyway.

Malcolm Collins: Gangs, like, consider them like the KKK or something like that. Go around and we’ll like kill Christians and, right. But are they,

Speaker 3: if I were.

Malcolm Collins: Extra judicial. It’s illegal, I know to do, but nobody cares.

Speaker 3: Well, so well, my question though is, is, is are they prosecuted when they commit these crimes?

Malcolm Collins: That, that’s a pointless question. If you have regular extra judicial killings, that’s like saying, do members of the KKK ever get prosecuted? Sometimes they did. Okay. Usually they didn’t.

Speaker 3: That was my question. No, it is, it is meaningful.

There are [00:24:00] some laws on the books that people regularly break and no one. No one will arrest them for, like many states were very, very late to change their laws around interracial marriage. But people got married and they were like, well, of course we’re not gonna, that’s, that’s ridiculous. But the point

Malcolm Collins: I’m making here is if you look at a country like Iran, so like right now in Iran the Jewish community, now the community went from like 80,000 to like 3000.

And this is one of the things we always point out. In Israel, you can be any religion. Like there’s all sorts of different religions in Israel. If you look at like every Muslim majority country, they have kicked out the the, jewish population and, and usually the Christian population as well. But they still have a, a person in the government, like they elect a Jewish representative for the government to represent to the point I making this literally

Speaker 3: is the token Jew, like there’s one spot.

They’re,

Malcolm Collins: they’re, they’re literally like more sensible the Iranian government than the government that Nick Fuentes wants to set up. He did not say he wants like Protestant representatives or something. Right. He’s like [00:25:00] only Catholics. Okay. So,

Speaker 3: no, but my question though is, is is it, is it this like the Jew role, like the Jew representative role?

Is that how it works? I’m just,

Malcolm Collins: yes. It’s like a millet system. Like they, they, they elect Oh, okay. Somebody who was in their community. Okay. And the Jewish representative represents in the voting body the Jews of Iran.

Speaker 3: Wow. Okay. Sorry. That’s just, that’s interesting. I, I had no, I’d never heard of that before.

Doesn’t mean

Malcolm Collins: that they’re still not regularly killed and stuff like that, but it’s just a thing. But

Speaker 3: they have a representative

Malcolm Collins: That’s nice. They

Speaker 3: representative.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, so. You’ve gotta keep in mind, okay, so you’re Hassan, you’re talking to, it’s like girls spamming hurt emojis at you. You gotta, you gotta get the mob fervent, right?

So if you can point out, and honestly that Iran is actually. Pretty decent to trans people overall, it is irrelevant what they do to, for example, gay men because in the current progressive hierarchy, gay men are mostly traitors. As we’ve pointed out. We’re, we’re probably gonna move soon to a point of [00:26:00] if demographics keep moving as they are to the point where the majority of gay men are voting re.

So it, it, it wi with that being the case was this rapid shift of gay men into the Republican party. They just don’t care about gay men. And that’s the majority of the people who are being killed within this system. And to them, gay men are one of the oppressive classes. And keep in mind to them, this is, this is I guess white passing gay men, they’re Persians.

They’re not even Arabs, right? So, you know, like who cares if a you fall off a building, right? So I think genuinely that that’s, that’s part of it. If they’re standing transness, it is irrelevant what they do to the gay community. And, and you actually sort of see this more broadly, like when you make a point to a leftist that them protecting, you know, like recently there was a case of the trans individual who was masturbating in a woman’s locker room at like a, a fitness program.

Another thing I found out about ‘cause it’s all right, but anyway, this, this there, there are, you know, people standing this, and I, and in the episode where I went over that, I like posted comment boards like from the top of [00:27:00] like, you know, LGBT subreddit saying like, this is a totally normal thing to do.

Women do this all the time. How dare you get mad at him? And, and everybody knows that this, this hurts the gay community, right? But they don’t care, right? Because they, they genuinely, what matters to them is they, they have a, a, a sexual and ethno hierarchy. And genuinely, if you’re not at the top of that hierarchy, you simply don’t matter.

You simply don’t matter. And I think it’s, it’s if, if, if, if your needs, even your life is being contrasted with somebody else who is in the hierarchy, right? This, this is how that works out in the moment. So he was able to make a defense like that. The second thing is when he talks about the United States being worse than Iran, you have to remember that he is including, so if you look at the protests and the people who are dying in Iran right now, he sees that as a direct result of American foreign [00:28:00] policy.

Hmm. So what he would say is, you know, when you talk about how hard it is to be an Iranian, and the other thing I’d note is one of the reasons we waited for a while to do the Iranian episode is we did an episode about two and a half months ago. If you, if you go through our backlog. Where I say there is going to be a revolution in Iran in the near future.

And I went through all of the reasons there was going to be a revolution in Iran. And if you wanna go over that episode to understand why the revolution is happening, look it up. The point I’m making here is I go to the sources that I go to for information, and the reason I find them to be good sources of information is because they accurately predict things.

Yeah. And one of the things that I like now is we’re moving more and more into a world where I think it’s pretty uncontroverted that we are better predictors of future geopolitical events than Peter Zian. He’s, he’s made a few really big blunders recently. He said that Caracas was a fortress and you couldn’t do anything to get somebody outta there.

He said that he is been famously always against Bitcoin. Whereas we are. Pro Bitcoin when it’s low and when it’s high, we offer more caution. You know, so like, I, I think that [00:29:00] and, and note here when I said that my prediction on, on being wary about Bitcoin, I said it’ll crash after two cycle.

And we’re not even one cycle after I made that prediction. So, this is still, we get to see if I’m, I’m, I’m right on this one. See, but if, if you, and by the way, I made that prediction saying that quantum computing was a big threat, and then a month after I made that, there was a huge thing of FUD around quantum computing.

It wasn’t me on that. I was, I was, well before that fud, I said that this fuds about to happen. But anyway the, the point I’m making here is it’s useful. Like if you’re like, I, the reason why you listen to political commentators is they understand the world. And if you understand the world accurately, that means you can make predictions about future world states.

And you know, sort of. Play the game, but he, he believes that all the suffering of the Iranian people is not due to government incompetency. In that episode, we point out that like, you can’t blame America on Iran’s idiotic dam project that ended up starving them of water, which is a, a, a, a, a bigger issue for them than their [00:30:00] economic system right now.

Like the, the what they ended up doing after the protests around the water is they ended up just starving all the rural areas, which are easy to control of water and, and, and the flowing it all to Tarran. And that lowered those protests. But the point I’m making is like, if you look at like the, the, like, if you look at the, the city streets collapsing into giant sinkhole and people dying weekly.

That like shocked me when I saw that still. Well,

Speaker 3: you and I are uniquely terrified of sinkhole. I guess everyone should be, but I love you. You know, you’re

Malcolm Collins: like this, this, this can happen to you. You just, one day you’re walking down the street and gone. And that. That we pointed out that this, this is also has nothing to do.

You can’t blame this on America, but he’s unaware of all that. And I genuinely think he is just unaware of Iran’s water crisis. He’s unaware of, he is unaware of learning information in the same way that you know, Greta Thornberg when they said, Hey, Greta, do you want to hear the opinions [00:31:00] of like, do you wanna, do you wanna see the video of like, what the, this video filmed by Hamas of what happened on, on the October 11th attacks?

And she’s like, no, I won’t watch the video filmed by Hamas of what they were proud of doing. Right? Like, ‘cause it might change her opinion. So I think for him, he just doesn’t gather this information. Right. Because if he does gather this information, then he might transform into, if you watch the video we did recently on this brainwashing game that they put out in the uk, the, the bad options happen if you say, I want to learn more about that.

Right? Like, that’s considered, by the way, you know, they took the game down, Simone.

Simone Collins: They did.

Malcolm Collins: So if you say, I want to learn more information, you get the bad ending, right? Mm. So this is the worldview of somebody like a Hass and he means this. Absolutely. Genuinely, he thinks that if he goes and searches for information that may disconfirm his beliefs.

Credit Thornberg believes this as well. Yeah. But they’re just gonna completely crash out, [00:32:00] right? Like they’re just going to completely descend into the side of evil because, well,

Speaker 3: I feel like they’re in a, a better position because they, they stand to lose their careers, their livelihoods, if they alienate their audiences.

So they, they are now having been subject to audience capture and path dependency in that dangerous position. Alien in our

Malcolm Collins: audience. Every other week we did an episode. Yeah. And it’s not, our livelihood isn’t

Speaker 3: Malcolm, we’re not making a living from this, are we?

Malcolm Collins: I, I just point out that we just did an episode hard critical of Judaism and like, yeah, I would say two weeks ago, but we’re doing that because week, we’re not afraid

Speaker 3: of losing our income because we’re, we don’t make an income from this Hassan Piker and, well, I don’t know what Greta Thunberg No, I, I just, I just disagree with your take here.

Trust fund kid.

Malcolm Collins: Not everyone has to be audience captured if you’re making an income from something. And we, we then do an a episode like this one. Well, I guess, yeah, [00:33:00] Aspen

Speaker 3: Gold doesn’t care. Which is just so wonderful. But he doesn’t

Malcolm Collins: flip, he does not go as hard. Aspen Gold wouldn’t do what we do, like an episode where he’s like, and these are why antisemitism is actually rising into talk about that.

We need to talk about why people are getting angry at the Jews, right? Mm-hmm. And then this week we’re doing an episode where we’re like, and Nick Futa is, you’re actually like a genuine buffoon as, as buffoonish as these two girls are. If you want to see his world order put into place, if you are using him as anything other than a tool to move the Overton window mm-hmm.

If you are unironically a stand of him. People will laugh at you the same way they laugh at these two girls. And I take these perspectives because I think that they’re both true. Mm-hmm. If, if you want to talk about why antisemitism is rising, you need to talk about things that Jews are doing that are pissing off other people.

Right. Like that unfor, you can’t just say every, every part of this is somebody else’s fault. You need to say, oh, well this is, this is part of why. Right? Like, if you, if you wanna [00:34:00] talk about realistically the Nick Foes movie, you need to say realistically, the government he wants to put in place is more extreme in anti your interest than the Iranian government.

But anyway the point I’m making here about Hassan’s worldview, so when he looks at Iran and he says, and his audience can hear this and understand it the, all of the people protesting right now, and he would see them as violent insurrectionists. They, they are protesting because of the sanctions that America put on Iran.

And, and you would then say, well, as Asma Gold did, he’s like, well, you know, but why, why? Why do they have those sanctions? And then he would say, well, he, he doesn’t go so far to make this argument, but I’m just gonna argue from his perspective. He’d say, well, they were trying to make a nuclear weapon.

Weapon. And who else has a nuclear weapon? The United States, Israel and Israel doesn’t just have a nuclear weapon. They have a nuclear weapon whose plan they stole. From the United States and [00:35:00] built without our permission, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s, it’s not just, you know, he would say, I can understand if Israel says we need this nuclear weapon for our own protection, how Iran could feel equally that they need a nuclear weapon for their own protection, right?

Like if, if you’re just standing them there. And, and I can understand all of that, right? I, I still think that it was not in their long-term economic best interest or the best interest of their people to enact these policies that caused these protests. They were probably better off trying to form good relationships with Israel and the United States than what they did.

But I, I, there is, there is a degree of merit. In that claim. Right. I would just say that unfortunately Iranians aren’t quite as smart or Persians okay. Let’s not say they’re not quite as smart as the Jews. Israel as a state and Jewish culture lent itself to them being able to build the bomb in actual secrecy.

Well, Iran has [00:36:00] not been able to, it’s, it is not competent enough to build the bomb in actual secrecy. And so every time they get a, a new leader building it or something, they get assassinated. You know, Iran could have stopped. Israel from building the bomb. If they had, they, they were in a position of relative power back then while Israel was in a position, Israel wasn’t always this strong state we see today.

They used to have like no tech very few friends. But anyway, back to this situation. Back, back to back to talking about I ran here. So, so if you put the world in this perspective, the people protesting and then you’re like, well, what about the people gunning down the protestors? Then he’d say, well, like, I wish I could gun down the Nazis in our own country.

Right. Because you know, he sort of frames people, he disagree. The United States with people he disagrees with. And if somebody opened up, you know, the way that he and many of these other people who will go over that, they’ll talk about somebody like the assassination of Charlie Kirk. They are genuinely happy that something like this happened.

You know, they think he deserved it. So when they see people protesting the Iranian government, they believe the same thing. And note [00:37:00] also how I’ve pointed out that the leftist movement is becoming more future oriented. Islamists, like they sort of accept that the gays won’t be around forever. That the trans are going to disappear after this generation.

And so who are they building the world for? They’re building it for the next discriminated class. Right? Like the Islam they’re going to bring into our countries, right? And hopefully one day they win. No, this does come from a loathing. Of Western civilization more broadly. Yes, I agree with that. Yeah. But it’s not just a loathing of Western civilization, it’s that they believe that Islamism is like genuinely a good and misunderstand thing.

Mm-hmm. When they entered the movement, there’s become this thing now where Asma Gold like watched a video of it and he was like, oh, I feel so sorry for the Islamist now, where like white progressive Karens are like converting to Islam and like wearing hijabs and everything. Mm-hmm. But then crashing out on their streams about Muslims not being inclusive of trans people and gay people.

And it’s like,[00:38:00]

you know, they, they, and I think a lot of the Muslim community similar too, and, and they’re good about this too. These groups that aim to one day take over and create these theocratic states. They’re very good about humoring these crazy people when they’re in the room. Wisdom, right. Hmm. Let’s go to some of his quotes on Iran.

Any kind of left disposition on Iran should start with a demand that the American government end sanctions in exchange for demands of democracy or anything else for that matter. I cannot believe that we’re past this point. Obama got the JCPO done with sanctions relief, exclamation mark. Then another, I want people to get food and medicine.

I don’t believe that America is a benevolent actor. It has its own regional interests. The Iranian people absolutely have a right to protest against their repressive state. Sanctions Relief was a common liberal position more than a decade ago. So you’ll note here, and, and he’s obviously said, the other one I said that I, I, I ran is, is no better than America, but here he is.

He’s talking about the [00:39:00] downstream consequences. So like, if you point out like life is bad in Korea, to him, he’ll be like, but that’s not because of the Korean state. That’s because of our trade stations.

Speaker 5: Hmm. If you

Malcolm Collins: point out that, you know, th this is, this is just sort of like his w world perspective on a lot of things.

You know, he’s able to go to China and be like, China is great. China is better than America. Even though, you know, they’re literally carrying out genocides that is irrelevant from his world perspective if it helps his long term goal. Oh, I mean, which is in part of destruction of, of, of Western civilization.

That is right. But I think it’s important to understand that these people who want to destroy Western civilization and live among us, if you cannot understand that these people are your core enemies. Right. And this, this is where I think like gr gets wildly stupid.

Speaker 3: Well, no, hold on. Humor me here though.

Isn’t there a little bit of that. People used to talk about the far right to crunchy hippie horse shoe. Or pipeline in [00:40:00] the, at either end of the spectrum, you kind of got to the same place where you’d either get Maha super conservative, homesteading Christian moms, and then at the other end you have homesteading pagan hippie moms.

But they all functionally are the same thing. I kind of feel like the, there is something very similar between the original drain, the swamp, burn it down sentiment that got Trump elected in 2016, and this burn the system down to the ground, ground swell that you see both among groupers and. Hassan Piker fans who are just like, whatever it is, the system, they’ll give it different names.

They’ll call it late stage capitalism or not, not

Malcolm Collins: all the point I’m making. You really don’t think so?

Speaker 3: I mean, I don’t know. I’m just like, but maybe these are the same thing. So if

Malcolm Collins: you look at Nick Fuentes and you look at when he ranks the people who are threats to us that we need to be aware of and working against.

Yeah. It’s mainstream conservatives. It who, who genuinely [00:41:00] love our country. A lot of mainstream conservatives, they may have different opinions than people like you and me, but they genuinely love America and want America to thrive, right? Yeah. They want Western civilization to thrive. It is you know, people like j.

D Vance’s. You know, like Indians in America or the Jewish, like Orthodox Jews in America, right? And if you look at Orthodox Jews you know, they’re a community that is, well, while Jews overall are, are left as orthodox Jews are, are rightest these days, right? Like, these are people who side with us on most policy positions.

They side with us on most of the things that we want to achieve in the country. And many of these people, yes, even many Latin American immigrants, not the ones we want to get rid of. Mm-hmm. But many Latin American immigrants love America, right? Like many Indian immigrants love America. And I don’t think that you need to say, oh, they’re the same as every other American, but they’re certainly not the threat that the Karens and the Hassan PIRs are that the white women are Right.

Like that the, the average white woman redditer is right. [00:42:00] And when you. Hide that. It’s these, these people who make these video games like the one, the brainwashing games. This is not a Jew, this is not a, an Indian immigrant, well, maybe I’ll, I’ll look it up, but chances are, it is a white, actually, the, the character of Amelia turns out it was based on a white woman who was ahead of something at the studio.

Just the physically and the way she dresses. Oh,

Speaker 3: they just made her evil,

Malcolm Collins: made evil by their abuse. But the point I’m making here is that we cannot, we like the, the existential nature of the forces array against us right now is so great that when you get distracted and begin to isolate, segment split potential allies to our movement, in a way that emboldens and empowers and helps groups win that have the agenda that the Hassan Pikers and the Greta Thornberg’s of this world [00:43:00] have.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: They want our genuine extermination. Like that is, that is the long term plan here. Right. That is why they will not allow you to say. Hey, there could be some negative externalities for unchecked immigration within our country.

That was, if you say, if you agree with that in that game you do, you cannot help but then have a racist burnout in class. That’s not a racist opinion. That is an economic potentially factual opinion and something we should be able to have a discussion on. Mm-hmm. And the only reason why you would prevent that discussion is if you had some alternate agenda here.

Now, I love what we said, the great replacement series. It’s obviously a conspiracy, but I do think it’s interesting that Hillary Clinton ascribes to this conspiracy see our video on that, where she literally says, this is the point of this. We need to bring these people into the country because the native population is not having kids right now.

And what, what, what [00:44:00] is that if, but the point I’m making here probably broadly, broadly, is. Do not forget about the existential evil that is at the heart of our enemy and their real goals. Mm-hmm. Well, let’s continue with other left wing sources here. Okay. Okay. So this is Jackson Henkel. So Jackson Henkel is a American political influencer.

He has around half a, oh no, sorry, has 2.5 million followers on X. So very, very win, right? Okay. Yeah. He says We stand with Iran, all exclamation marks all capital, multiple post. This isn’t not a good look. I stand. Was Iran to you? No.

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. He says, in response to recent foreign backed riots in Iran, mass government protests have taken place.

This is you know, obviously done by, by the government here. He, he says that these are Mossad riots in Iran and have failed Massaad riots. Oh, is that okay? That’s a theory I’ve heard. Iran right now will only [00:45:00] unify the Islamist Republic. So like, they, they really buy into all of this, but I just think he’s somebody with his brain turned off.

I think if you look at hassan’s tweets, they seem to understand like staying in the realm of like understanding reality and trying to shape it his way. This guy is just saying stuff that’s not true, right? Like, now do I think that Masad could have had a hand in these, in these protests? Yeah.

Honestly, they could have although it’s, it’s less Mossad style Mossad seems to be more about direct assassinations. Yeah. Than, than or, or

Speaker 3: targeting very small amounts of leadership. It’s more of a Russian thing to try to get. Yeah. This is, this

Malcolm Collins: is more of Russian. I don’t think that Russian Russia’s doing this.

No, no. But just in terms of,

Speaker 3: of of, of diplomatic styles. Styles of diplomatic manipulation. Mossad is all about very surgical targeting of influential points or leadership, whereas Russia seems to be more, let’s affect the grassroots.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And if you are unfamiliar with just how [00:46:00] aggressive or successful Russia is on this, look at our episode, where we point out was copious receipts that Russia, AstroTurf, BLM and, and it’s, that was a

Simone Collins: fascinating episode.

You blew my mind at that one knowledge.

Malcolm Collins: And it’s weird that people on the right don’t talk about this. Yes, yes. I think they want to pretend that Russia is like the rights friend. It is not. It is one of,

Speaker 3: because we also did that episode on how Russia, it even has. A, a visa program specifically designed for people moving to Russia for cultural reasons.

They’re trying to broadcast to America that well, we’re the place for conservative values. Meanwhile,

Malcolm Collins: they are the reason we have the trans movement we have in America now. They’re the reason we have the BLM movement. We have an America now. Yeah. Well, yeah.

Speaker 3: They’re, they’re, they’re poisoning the well here and then saying, oh, the water’s fine over here in Russia.

Right. They don’t

Malcolm Collins: really care about bringing Americans over the point. No, not really. Russia,

Speaker 3: they’re creating this perception. I’m just trying to say that’s the perception. They’re be

Malcolm Collins: aware of the groups that are genuinely and [00:47:00] successfully turning our country against us. Yeah. Versus the groups that we may have ideological disagreements with in the moment.

And we may think America would be better if they weren’t in our country, but that we can form a cohesive. Larger movement together with them to achieve aims for everyone and build and say like, this is how we achieve the aims of all of these wider conservative forces. And then say, but X group is, is genuinely just bad actors.

Mm-hmm. Right? Like genuinely, like for example, Nick Es has always said, don’t vote for like any major conservative candidate. And everyone knows if JD Vance wins the next ticket, he’s gonna say Don’t vote for him. You know, he, he said, don’t vote for Trump. He’s gonna. He’s genuinely a bad actor. Russia is genuinely a bad actor.

When you, when you make this big tint you know, you can, you can have your American Indian immigrants in it, but say, but you guys need to compromise on this H one B visa issue because it’s genuinely really bad for a lot of people and it’s genuinely really unfair for a lot of people if, if they’re willing to compromise.

Right. You know, but [00:48:00] you, you, you, you cannot have Russia. You, you, you cannot have Russia, right? Like Russia is actually against us. Mm-hmm. Actually before I go further here, I wanna talk about is it a good idea for Trump to go in and do in Iran what he did in Venezuela? Hmm.

Speaker 5: Do tell

Malcolm Collins: the answer is no.

No, it’s probably not, but, well,

Speaker 3: I, I saw a headline I think just this afternoon that was along those lines of basically what Trump had said. Trump said that there is no. Surgical action that the United States could take, which would take out the Iranian government and therefore. That casts into doubt the utility of any particular intervention.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, is is is Trump sane and smart? Oh no. I, I, I could see us taking some sort of surgical action or a few surgical actions, but I don’t think they’re gonna look like what we’re doing with Maduro. So, here’s what the Iranian system of government is. Maduro basically went in and he was terrified of [00:49:00] anyone else with a, a degree of competence, having power was in the country.

And so he assured that those people didn’t have power. And there weren’t a lot of competent, like second in commands that could come in and begin negotiating with the United States also. Even if they did they, they had a degree of like, potential, okay, on our side we can work with this. Not only that, but that’s in our backyard.

Like Venezuela’s in our backyard, Iran is not. Mm-hmm.

So it’s not to say that we couldn’t do it but if you went in and you took out like just the Ayatollah you really haven’t done that much to disrupt the Iranian government system right now.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They just put in the next person in power and it would still be an Islamist government.

Right. It’s more

Speaker 3: robust. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Also, we, we have a bit of a past with this.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we’ve, we’ve tried to do this and Iran before, and that’s how we got in the current situation. It didn’t, it didn’t go so well.

Simone Collins: There’s some baggage, you know? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There’s some baggage. Yeah. I do not think that that is, so, there’s, there’s [00:50:00] worse if we fail in any way, or even if we do it, it could embolden the government in saying, now you see the protestors, they’re definitely working with the United States so we can go and hunt them down.

Right? Like even right now you’ve got the situation where they are charging families for the bullets which taught their children, they are charging families for their children’s bodies, right? Like they are really trying to make this hurt as much as they can for anyone involved in this. Right? Like they, it is true psychological terror that they are enacting in the country right now.

But if we engage at this point, it’s Now, see, I told you so. And the, the protestors and stuff like that in Iran they cannot fight back. So like in Vene, Vela, we’re able to also, there’s the issue of oil, right? Like Venezuela has oil that we can take over because it’s. OO often offshore, and they’re contracting with American companies.

Iran does have oil wealth, but it’s not oil wealth that [00:51:00] we are going to easily capture value from. Mm-hmm. Even if we have a sympathetic government in power.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Right. That, that would just be fairly foolish of us. If anything, it would kind of hurt the United States because it would hurt the value of our oil.

The oil progressed in Venezuela is much more visc than our oil, so it sells into different markets than our oil. But right now, America’s a an exporter of oil. Right? Like, we sell oil to Europe. If we open up Iran and get them a lot more efficient that’s not necessarily gonna be awesome for us.

Now the other other things are, it, it wouldn’t necessarily achieve as much as Venezuela. We don’t really have the geopolitical justification to it that we do in Venezuela. We, it. I, I also just don’t see it going any, anywhere in the direction we want to go in the Middle East. More broadly, what’s gonna happen in the Middle East is the region’s gonna continue to secularize and it is secularizing.

Mm-hmm. Pretty aggressively. I think we might see a reversal and secularization as AI gets popular. We’ve done it where we point out that AI is actually very protective of religion. Because like if I go [00:52:00] online and I, you know, tell me about Islam, right? I’m gonna get a bunch of anti-Islamic stuff, right?

If I ask an ai, tell me about Islam or help me with this, like theological quandary was an Islam that I can’t easily through myself. It’s gonna explain it to you in a way that is you know, beneficial to Islam, right? Like, it’s not gonna try to deconvert you. Sure. Whereas the internet is the exact opposite.

You’re now in a Reddit hole trying to deconvert you. Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, but that’s, that’s gonna take a little bit to I, I do expect just wider deconversions, because Islamism is one of the. Okay. So like obviously Islam historically did do great things in the field of science, civilization war.

Yeah. But they did also massacre tons of people. I think the, the, the, the answer was around 300 million people during their conquest, which put some way above people like Hitler, way above people like Stalin. You know, but the point here being that e while Islam did have periods of cultural flourishing, the actual [00:53:00] structure of their religion, if you, if you like, study it, it’s one of the less coherent of the Abrahamic phase.

And one of the more obviously, dumb. It’s, it’s one of the ones that as I study it, like I, okay. I point out religions that as I study, appear a lot smarter and more coherent than when I first started studying them. Yeah. Number one is Mormonism.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Appears way more coherent. The more you study it and the more you engage with the counter arguments.

Speaker 3: The law is good.

Malcolm Collins: It’s been like the fact that Joseph Smith, you’re like, oh, he had a bunch of wives, right? Like, how horrible is this? And then they, they point out, you know, that he has no genetic offspring today. Not one person who can provably prove to be a genetic offspring that wasn’t with his primary wife.

And when you see that, all of a sudden you’re like. Like people would claim to be descended from Joseph Smith as they were, right. And we would be able to see that in DNA. Like that would be a point of pride for those families. How did [00:54:00] he not conceive was a single other one of these women. And then that makes the Mormon argument that he was really just doing it because he wanted them to, to support people.

But it’s like, but some of these women had husbands and then you could say, well, these husbands may have been abusive or something. You just go into it and you’re like, well, that, that at least seems saner than I originally thought. Yeah. Religions that seem dumber, the more I study them is, I really hate to say this but we have like a four hour track on this, the question that breaks Judaism.

Judaism, I was incredibly enamored by Judaism when I first started studying it. The more I study it theologically the less coherent it seems and the more like fundamental internal problems it seems to have. And even just like thematic problems from my, my face perspective, it seems to have which we go over in that episode.

In, in but was, but was Islam. I frankly, the reason we haven’t gone into the problems with Islam yet is they’re just so numerous and so big. Even when I talk about the question that breaks Judaism, I try to be two sided in it. Like I’m trying to like, well here’s the Jewish side, here’s the non-Jewish side.

[00:55:00] If I tried to go too deep into Islam, it would just be like, this is dumb, this is dumb, this is dumb, this is dumb, this is dumb. So it’s

Speaker 3: just like a, a not even wrong kind of situation. It’s that bad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Oh

Speaker 4: no.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and like pointing out that like Mecca is probably not even Mecca. Like you’re probably all praying in the wrong direction and we can look at earlier ruin sites and show that.

Speaker 3: I mean,

Malcolm Collins: there’s, there’s

Speaker 3: kind of the bigger question of like, the point of many religions isn’t to be logically cohesive, it is to be. It, it’s, it’s a kind of different solution. You know, people have framed to us Judaism not as, as something that was ever supposed to be a coherent religion, but rather a cultural technology for, you know, promoting human development and flourishing and, and, and civilizational cohesion.

Malcolm Collins: Not, I, I, I, I hear that. I hear that, but that’s not what I want for my family. And so when I’m ranking a religion, I’m like, sure.

Speaker 3: I’m just trying to say like a religion isn’t necessarily a failure because it’s [00:56:00] lore isn’t logically consistent. And as we pointed many other episodes, Judaism produces some pretty great results and that leaves

Malcolm Collins: a failure if it’s lore causes people to deconvert when it clashes with modernity.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But the thing is, I’m not seeing people who lean into Orthodox Judaism, deconvert. I’m seeing No, I agree to

Malcolm Collins: Well, and as I pointed out, I mean, I think that the Jewish, you know, they’ve been to an extent genetically isolated so long that they may have some sort of like resistance to parts of like, the mysticism was in the tradition that my, my descendants wouldn’t.

Right. So, you know, my thought there is, is this could just be a me thing, right? That these, these contradictions appear much bigger, but with Muslims, the contradictions appear to like, get into them. Now the ID dubs thing they, they got in trouble. So this used to be a really popular YouTuber.

And then he had this, this wife who pushed him she’s like an only fan streamer and used to be like, popular and it’s just like a generic leftist. And he used to be a generic, like shot content creator, and [00:57:00] she pushed him more and more in the Hassan direction. And I Interesting. It was the wife

Speaker 3: who politically radicalized him.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well his wife has like a crush on Hassan which she talks about all the time. And no. Oh, and she’s talked about what are some of

Speaker 3: these, these progressive YouTubers who have wives who do not back them? They do not their back. Oh, no. She

Malcolm Collins: said that he would only be attractive to gay women. She said that he could do gay porn.

He says that Hassan is everyone’s type. She said that. Oh my gosh, Hassan

Speaker 3: is not everyone’s type for the record. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But she you know, she thirsts after. I think that that’s why Hassan is so big that he can be somebody who, like, if you are mindlessly like in the crowd of leftist women screaming and not really engaging with any ideology, you do.

Drift towards the, the hot Muslim, right? Like that is the thing. And I think that we’re gonna increasingly see the quote unquote hot Muslim be a thing within leftist intellectual circles.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, it’s, it’s not surprising that if you look at the, what the other like [00:58:00] top leftist dreamer hassan’s uncle I, Iger, Gerk or whatever, think however you pronounce his name you know, Muslim or Muslim descendant streamer, right?

Like, the other thing I, here I, I’d point out here when you could say, well, like bring, bring like why don’t you set up democracy in Iran? Like, we don’t even know that democracy would work in Iran. Like, look at our video. Before you crash out guys, I know that you’re Persians, okay? But you are genetically linked to Arabs.

And you can look at our video that democracy has never once in human history, lasted for a long time in an Arab majority country. I think the, the thing was it’s more than 35 years. And that’s crazy ‘cause there’s like. 25 or 23 Arab majority countries. And they have a very, very long history. And yet if you look at Protestant majority countries the majority of them almost throughout their entire history have been Democrat democracies.

Not, not their entire history, but huge chunks of their history. We go into the [00:59:00] statistics in that they’re just basically implausible that there’s not a cultural thing at play here. Now, the thing was I ran is when they were ruled peacefully was by a shot. It was by a king. Yeah. Like they, they’re probably better reinstalling a monarchy, but the United States and Trump can’t do that with the current political world.

Yeah. Also, it doesn’t even matter. Like Iran is not a threat to anyone anymore. They’re about to fall apart as a major political power. Again, watch our video where we were predicting these protests. They have no kids. Their fertility rate is effing garbage for their income level. If I put up a, you know, a map on screen here, you can say it’s, it’s terrible.

It’s terrible fertility rates across the country, except in like the least economically developed regions. And these people who are having kids in these economically developed regions, they are not gonna be relevant in the future. They have no water, so they have no agriculture in the future. Yeah, it’s dire oil will become less relevant.

They have no ai. They can make drones good. And that’s it.

Speaker 3: You know what, remind me, what was their big industry? I can’t.

Malcolm Collins: Oil. [01:00:00]

Speaker 3: Oil. Just oil. Only. Oil. Oil. There has to have been more than that.

Malcolm Collins: They could have a diversified economy, but they don’t, they had a diversified economy, but it’s sort of fallen apart.

Speaker 5: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So, yeah, Iran is just in a terrible, terrible position and it’s so terrible and so weak of position. That it is not relevant to us in the future. If you look at like what Trump did, I really like that he like hasn’t gotten us involved in trying to take over Venezuela. Yeah, we want their oil. We want them to stop being as egregious in their abuses.

Other than that. Whatever. Right? Yeah. You, you do. You

Speaker 3: we’re not gonna, you,

Malcolm Collins: you do, you stop being China and Russia’s be, be, you know? Yeah. Because Iran, it’s sort of like a, why doesn’t Saudi Arabia go in and take over Iran? Okay. Mm-hmm. The reason being because they’re military is laughably bad. They, they basically don’t have one.

We could take over Saudi Arabia tomorrow. It’d be easier to take over Saudi Arabia than it would Iran, to be honest. Oh. They have tons of top of the line equipment, but nobody knows how to use them. And [01:01:00] at first they’re Arabs and Arab militaries always interf fight with each other and can’t carry out large, complicated actions.

Oh gosh. I’m sorry. I’m not saying that they can’t at like a genetic level or something. I’m just saying that historically they never once have. You’re just saying

Speaker 3: logistically there, there are some kinks to work out.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. I’m just saying that like, huh. Look at, huh. I mean, it is interesting that culturally speaking, they’ve never once been able to, huh?

Huh? They’ve tried a lot, they’ve put a lot of money into it. They’ve been able to do things like the, you know, the Yo Kippur war, like multiple countries at once, jumping a country that had a less developed military at the time. And no nearby allies. Huh? How’d they all get their butts kicked so hard.

Huh? That they lost a ton of territory and somehow are still crying about it, huh?

Speaker 4: Unit 1 0 1. Did you know? Did you know [01:02:00] one F three aliens have some sort of weapon built into their physiology? Are aliens inherently violent? Hmm. Interesting. How did you know some aliens are single mothers on a genetic level? I wonder if it affects the behavior of the children. Hmm. Curious. Tell about per capita.

Speaker 6: I’m getting to it.

But really, , Muslim majority countries have been comically bad at waging war against non-Muslim majority countries Unless you go back to like the Middle Ages, it, it feels a bit like this going to war with a Muslim majority country.

Speaker 11: Can I please just get one victory once. Now, don’t start that, don’t you? Do

Speaker 12: you wanna just

Smash ‘em all? What? No, man. Look. These guys aren’t gonna quit until they win or die and they’re not gonna win. So what if we let ‘em win [01:03:00] just as once?

Oh no. My blood.

Speaker 14: Victory

Speaker 11: is our

Speaker 13: no.

Speaker 14: This is ketchup.

Speaker 12: Cute king. Wait up.

Speaker 13: We wanna apologize for being fakers.

Speaker 12: No one will ever fear our strength. But strength isn’t your strength.

Pretending to be victims .

Speaker 12: Is. Can I use it to control others? Um, yeah, sure. Just be righteous about it.

Malcolm Collins: But the point I’m making is like, if we wanted to do something, they caught Malcolm. No, no. I, I think it’s, it’s, I actually think that countries like the UAE which by the way, we gotta talk about that situation in Yemen, just completely lost Yemen.

And the Iranian, the Iranian factor, the Houthis have basically taken over Yemen. So this should be good for Iran, right? Like, they’re gonna, they, they got the oil reserves. Wait, is this something that just

Speaker 3: happened? I’m not [01:04:00] familiar with this. It just

Malcolm Collins: happened. They’re breaking off from the other two factions, the UAE back faction and the Saudi Arabia back faction.

Oh. And you know, it should be a big woo for, for, for, iran, but nope. And so, and, and, and the UAE faction and the Saudi Arabia faction can’t even take out this faction, right? So, right. You can’t even take out Yemenis. So Saudi Arabia, Yemen is right on your effing border. You children. You need to do what you always do, what you do for your accounting, which is hire a bunch of Saudis and have them sit in a corner and then hire a bunch of Jews and white Protestants and have them handle your books, have them handle your military, and actually get this stuff done.

That’s actually been their, like, actual strategy. And like Saudi Arabia and the Uua e and it’s worked pretty well for them so far, except they don’t do it in the military because

Speaker 5: they’re

Malcolm Collins: too afraid. Do

Speaker 5: it

Malcolm Collins: in the

Speaker 5: military.

Malcolm Collins: But they should, they should do it in their military because it would actually work.

I mean, they’d, they’d literally, they’d literally be better [01:05:00] hiring Russians, sls, sls,

Simone Collins: I mean. Hmm. Hmm.

Speaker 3: It is interesting. Yeah. Well, well then, what do you think is gonna happen to Iran? I guess, I mean, my, my general assumption, you know, if, if, if I am, if we’re talking about my, my subconscious, that doesn’t put a lot of thought into it, and a sleep that doesn’t actually care that much because I just don’t think this affects the United States or my livelihood or my work that much, which I think is the position of most Americans.

It’s only discussed because we all discuss world events as the new water cooler thing. There is no shared TV show that everyone watches. So we talk about Iran instead, and Venezuela and the United States and tech developments in the economy. I just assume that basically there’s going to be unrest, unrest, unrest, and.

Maybe some token political change that may or may not have been nudged along by one or more foreign governments, but [01:06:00] functionally, not much changes. Maybe there’s some moderate reforms like this does move the Overton window of some, some stuff in Iran, but Iran cannot change its demographic or climate based.

Problems and headwinds. And they’re not climate

Malcolm Collins: based, they’re bureaucracy based. They’re water. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

Speaker 3: no, no. Don’t, don’t forget the, the water situation in Iran that we discussed. Don’t forget the, yeah, I just said

Malcolm Collins: Iran’s water situation has nothing to do with global warming. It has to do with, well, it might have a little to do with it, but not, when I say climate, I didn’t say climate change.

I said, I just said climate. I just said, but it’s not, it’s not, it’s not downstream of climate. It’s downstream of the bureaucracy of the Iranian government and the corruption, which is, I, I’m not gonna say that Persian populations are more prone to corruption. What I’m saying though is they

Speaker 3: can’t change what has been done.

The aquifers are drained. Okay. That, that, that, that you can’t change that. And therefore [01:07:00] the, the Iranian. Government is, is just going to slide into greater obscurity over time. Well, I mean this is why

Malcolm Collins: you don’t set up governments like this. If you set up a government like this in a Catholic majority country, you’d end up the same way.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But my argument here is, is, is one, most people don’t really care. They’re only talking about now ‘cause it’s trending. And that’s what we do. And based on all of the factors at play, Iran is going to become even more of a backwater. It is not going to become a, a major player. It’s not important. And sadly, if I were Iranian or I had friends in Iran, I would be encouraging them to get out and build a new life somewhere else.

Malcolm Collins: The government is going to collapse eventually. Not necessarily due to these protests. I’m saying like within 10 years. Yeah, well they’re just,

Speaker 3: it doesn’t, it doesn’t have, it doesn’t have hooks that will bring it into the future. It doesn’t have some demographic asset. It doesn’t have tech assets, it doesn’t have climate assets, it doesn’t have agricultural assets.

It doesn’t have. Rare minerals. It has oils,

Malcolm Collins: it [01:08:00] has oil.

Speaker 3: We could do something has oil. Yeah. Yeah. But there’s, there are many, many other places with oil and oil is going to become, especially with the rise of nuclear, which I think more and more people are, or countries, businesses, private entities are investing in, is going to become less relevant.

So I just don’t see anything that would, would act as a de ex mocking up for Iran. And therefore, if you’re there, get out. If you’re invested in it, divest just it, it sell, sell not good. It ha

Malcolm Collins: You don’t need to worry about when something was No future is dying. Yeah. If they have nothing, you can loot from the corpse.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Aside from just, I feel really bad for people who are there and I hope that they can leave. That’s it. That’s,

Malcolm Collins: that’s where I stand. Yeah. But a lot of them have like, keep in mind the reason you have so many Persian, I like, I’ve got a lot of Persian Persians are cool. Like, I like American Persians.

Delightful,

Speaker 3: wonderful people.

Malcolm Collins: But the problem is, is saying I like American Persians. It’s like saying I like American cu. Right. Like there’s a, there’s a common factor in why they’re here, right? Like and that

Speaker 3: factor. Yeah. But I [01:09:00] mean, that’s, that’s the thing with a lot of immigrants that come to the United States, or at least historically have come to the United States, is that they are uniquely smart and competent and competitive.

And that’s

Malcolm Collins: not the current immigrant wave, which we need to deal with. I agree with that. Well, this, this

Speaker 3: is the Yeah, that, that, well, that’s the difference between refugee or open borders based immigration and high barrier to entry immigration. Big difference. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, Iran will collapse and fall into obscurity.

And it is the fate of most governments that are structured this way. The, the, actually about the only place where you really see authoritarian governments operate really efficiently are in Protestant majority countries. The few times there’s been authoritarian governments and they, they almost never last in Protestant majority countries.

Speaker 3: Oh, so you’re talking about Oliver Cromwell because that’s, that you stand Cromwell. They he was incredibly upset. Yeah. But what, aside from Oliver Cromwell,

Malcolm Collins: well, it depends on if you think that other group was an [01:10:00] authoritarian faction in a Protestant majority country.

Speaker 3: What, like when Mormons tried to become separatists?

Malcolm Collins: No, that group that tried to conquer Europe and nobody really likes. They were economically pretty efficient.

Speaker 3: Can we, I, I’m sorry, I, I lack the mental acuity to know what you were referring to.

Malcolm Collins: What group tried to conquer Europe and I cannot possibly be talking about

Speaker 3: Vikings

Malcolm Collins: recently.

Speaker 3: R Russia. Our, our fans are actually like baffled by, do you understand how little sleep I’m operating on right now?

I feel, I mean, list on one

Malcolm Collins: hand every group that’s tried to conquer all of Europe and almost that is Protestant and that was Protestant majority. Start listing on your hand.

Speaker 3: Who has tried to conquer [01:11:00] Europe recently? List, list on your hand. It’ll take you

Malcolm Collins: two seconds. Trump,

Speaker 3: he’s not pro.

Malcolm Collins: It’ll take you two seconds.

Just list all the groups. All the groups list on your hand.

Speaker 3: The a FD, is that what you’re trying to, there’s

Malcolm Collins: literally only three groups ever.

Speaker 3: Isn’t the a FD Catholic anyway,

Malcolm Collins: there are only three groups ever.

Speaker 3: One, I’m sorry, you’re gonna have to dispel it out for me. I, I don’t know if you’re talking about religious groups or One

Malcolm Collins: was Napoleon.

Okay. Oh, you’re talking, that’s not recent. Napoleon was Catholic. Who did it? After Napoleon? They conquered France, then they conquered a large part of Russia. They conquered. You’re not talking about the Nazis? Yes. How does that not jam? Yes, they were a Protestant majority group and they, they lost the war, but they were economically efficient during the period, but they lost, they made, but they were [01:12:00] led by a Catholic and that was their problem then.

Speaker 3: They weren’t a Protestant

Malcolm Collins: group. They were, I’m just saying Hitler

Speaker 3: wasn’t every time, was Hitler

Malcolm Collins: Catholic? I don’t know. Was he, was he Yeah, he was, he was born Catholic and then he became like Wiccan. So then

Speaker 3: they weren’t

Malcolm Collins: Protestant? No. The, their leader wasn’t, and that was the problem.

Speaker 3: But Germany wasn’t Protestant either, isn’t it?

Isn’t Germany quite Catholic? No. Germany, it’s majority Protestant. I mean, I would’ve thought so, but then again, when we, when we were doing recent like fertility regulation research, we discovered just how Catholic influenced German legislation was. And that’s what threw me for a loop, I guess. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Germany was 54 to 63%. They weren’t enough that, that’s okay. So it’s not Okay. It’s quite Catholic. Okay. That’s what I thought. That’s the way they fell apart when contrasting with Carlile. Okay. Okay. Interesting.

Speaker 3: Huh? Okay. Sorry guys. I, I’m just a stupid woman after all. I, [01:13:00] I’m just, when you, when you

Malcolm Collins: think Germany in your head, you think Catholic.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean after our, our look into IVF laws, it’s literally

Malcolm Collins: where the Protestant reformation happened.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But then they left and then, I don’t know. Yeah. When, when I think of Germany, I think of the amazing cathedrals and I think of I think of their, now I think of their IVF laws, which are just super Catholic.

But I guess they’re also a, a lot of, a lot of Lutherans are very anti IVF too, so I should, should not forget that. Well, and just Protestants in general, there’s not a lot of

Malcolm Collins: Lutherans in the world. Simone.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Just lineman stone.

Malcolm Collins: Just lineman stone. Yeah. He and

Speaker 3: his wife are trying though. They, they’ve done and still do a lot of missionary work, so

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Good for them. Good luck guys. I think our Teop Puritan work’s gonna do better. We’re gonna get full Teop Puritan, they can have Earth

Simone Collins: and we’ll have everything else. That’s a,

Malcolm Collins: that’s a plan. And then e Elon, we will have Mars, we’ll carve out a little, a little [01:14:00] thing for Elon Elon’s

Speaker 3: expansionism. Yeah. Or whatever it is.

I wonder Yeah. What his religion would be, the tech

Malcolm Collins: priest of Mars.

Speaker 3: Yeah. He, we would just call it the religion of X Ex is his thing. He loves X

Malcolm Collins: Anyway.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simone. And it’s fun to have these discussions with you and hopefully bring ideas to people that you’re not getting on the normal talks about this stuff and perspectives that you’re not getting.

Yeah. Because I, I, you know, I know it’s not unpopular to point out that this is what Nick Fuentes wants from a governing structure, but it is what he wants.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that the bigger picture that people just need to kind of acknowledge is a lot of people are talking about, oh, like the outrage of what’s happening in Iran and like in the end.

This is a sinking ship. The the narrative in my mind isn’t, you know, how do we reform this country? It’s just how do we get people out safely? That’s it. Yeah. That this, you, you don’t wanna be there, you know, like this is one of those [01:15:00] cases. No, no, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, how do we get productive people out? We don’t want a big refugee crisis either.

Speaker 3: Well, we can send the refugees to places we don’t like. It’s kind of like glitter bombs, you know? Yeah. Like Germany, take all the refugees, don’t like send them to Germany. F**k sand. Here’s the Iranian refugee.

Malcolm Collins: You’re the annoying. They’re sort of the center of the theros destroying the world right now. Oh.

I mean, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I just, but, but again, the point I want to end with is always remember that these people like Hassan and the Karens, they genuinely want a complete destruction of Western civilization. There are many people who agitators on the right will try to get you to hate that, do not want to destruction of western civilization.

And yeah, it’s

Speaker 3: just, again,

Malcolm Collins: I

Speaker 3: just seen so many echoes. A a lot of, a lot of conservatives voted Trump into office in 2016 genuinely hating Trump. Or not at, at best, not them, but that’s not the point. They just wanted Trump to break things. And I think, you know, a lot of people are, well, I like Iran, not because I agree with anything or even know anything about Iran.

I just know that Iran [01:16:00] wants death to America, so great. Let’s do it. Like,

Malcolm Collins: I like Iran.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. But that’s

Malcolm Collins: not the point.

Speaker 3: The enemy of, of my enemy is my friend, that kind of thing. Right. But that’s not the point. I, I get, I get that you say that. I just don’t really understand.

Malcolm Collins: No. So the point is, is that Trump, you might have supported Trump because you wanted him to break the system.

Yeah. But if you listen to what Trump was saying, he’s not saying he wants to start an inquisition. Okay. If you listen. Yeah. But a lot of people just

Speaker 3: didn’t listen to Trump. Just like a lot of people just aren’t listening to Iran. Yeah. Which, to your point, a lot of people have said things about Iran that are just blatantly not true, which is proof positive that they are not listening to Iran.

But you’re not the

Malcolm Collins: same kind of idiot if you voted for Trump without understanding his policy that you are I disagree,

Speaker 3: I disagree.

Malcolm Collins: So you just think anyone who doesn’t understand what somebody who they’re standing for actually represents is just equally buffoonish.

Speaker 3: Well, think about it from this perspective.

We often talk about the various stages in the war or [01:17:00] the. The jihad of demographic collapse and tism, right? That right now there’s a lot of groups that are all fighting in favor of, of tism, inheriting the future. And right now we’re all fighting collectively for cultural sovereignty. We’re united in this battle.

We know that there’s a stage after this where some of them then turn on other groups and are like, no, now you’re all gonna be just like me. We don’t believe in cultural sovereignty anymore because now I have the power. Yeah. And the mandate to, to turn on you, there are stages of battles and what these people are logically thinking about, be they Trump haters who vote for Trump or be they, late stage capitalism slash imperialism slash colonialism, like anti colonialists or whatever. You know, people who hate this system who, where stage one is break the system and then stage two is build the thing I want. And and their assumption at that point is, sure Iran and I are allies now and then I just destroy Iran after that.

You

Malcolm Collins: know that that was not what I was, I wasn’t talking about Iran, I was talking about Fuentes. Well, I don’t [01:18:00] care. But

Speaker 3: you see my point is that there are stages to these things. These people will ally with people that they later plan to destroy.

Malcolm Collins: Because the analogy I was making was the progressive girls who stand the isat tola being comparative to the people who stand iah.

Speaker 5: Right.

Malcolm Collins: That’s the point I was making. I wasn’t talking about Iran today. I was saying the, the, the progressive girls who stand the ayatollah, if they had some sort of long-term, the enemy of my enemy plan. Mm-hmm. It was. Retarded. And it ended up with them being killed. Right? Like the, the, yeah. Well, well,

Speaker 3: welcome

Malcolm Collins: to

Speaker 3: humanity.

We’re not, you’re, you are the, you are unique and I love you for this. And that you think of second and third order consequences. You, you think several steps ahead and there, there are, there’s a lovely point. Zero 1% of humans who do that, guess what? Most humans can’t think beyond the next five minutes.

Most humans cannot think long term. They think just in terms of now. So, no. Yeah. I mean, yes, I agree with you Malcolm. Those girls are idiots. Now look at our entire economic [01:19:00] system, our entire political system. Can our politicians think beyond their next election cycle? No, Malcolm, they can’t.

Malcolm Collins: But I can still judge somebody, like a listener of this show for Well then welcome

Speaker 3: you.

You don’t even have to, to put mental thought. You don’t have to spend the tokens on judging because you can just assign an automatic assumption that they’re gonna be idiots, because that’s, that’s the 99.9% of the time you’re gonna be right. Our fan base are not idiots. You can, because they’re the fan base.

And this is why we don’t,

Malcolm Collins: we only have autistic fans.

Speaker 3: We, yeah. I’m just, but I’m saying this is a very, very, very small audience of very interesting and smart people. This is not representative of the real world, and that is why people,

Malcolm Collins: okay, Simone, we we’re running along with this episode. We have to, the, the audience can enter in the comment who they agree with here.

Okay. Definitely made

Speaker 3: it this long.

Malcolm Collins: Love you guys. Bye. So I sent you an urgent test, a a Quest request and a score of fans as well, [01:20:00] which I need you to accept the mod request on Reddit. ‘cause we’re already getting warnings for being unmoderated. Oh. And we do have one of the largest subreddits now the largest conservative sub Reddit on the website by a significant margin bigger than Joe Rogan, bigger than ASM Gold.

So, and it’s actually a pretty fun subreddit. And, and, and your only goal as ah, mod is to keep us from getting banned. Okay. That’s our, that’s our rule. Let’s the minimum moding necessary to keep from getting banned band. Well, so like I had to delete one today that was saying that what’s her face deserved it.

Oh,

Simone Collins: Renee

Malcolm Collins: and saying that they were happy that she was shot. And I was like, come on guys, come on Monica of self-control. I know when you’re not the mod yourself, mom.

Simone Collins: It’s

Malcolm Collins: tough. Anyway.

Simone Collins: It’s tough to live in this world. Okay. Yeah. I thought you actually want, you want us to actually mod not just,

Malcolm Collins: and if you, if you reach out about doing this, like let us [01:21:00] know how we know of you from either like the comments or the discord. ‘cause obviously we don’t want somebody to come on and like kick all the other mods or something, which, you know, people do.

Wait, you have

Simone Collins: a picture You can put in a picture? Yeah.

Oh, there you go. I didn’t know that.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Well, but actually the beginning of this episode, which I’ll start soon, is actually partially inspired by the subreddit.

Simone Collins: Really? Oh, color me intrigued.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right. Oh, how was the comments? I, I, I listened to some of them. They’re pretty positive. The, after a while on the gay episode.

Yeah. They just

Speaker 3: pointed out you were wrong about the alien series and I was right. Which is very it in number three, where she’s impregnated. Yeah, which is, I feel like I’m not a crazy person now because I haven’t seen the third one. And I don’t think people would, I mean, a lot of people were like, the third one doesn’t exist.

We do not acknowledge the [01:22:00] existence of the third one. It was so bad.

Simone Collins: It’s not canon. We reject it outright. So. Well, that’s yes.

Malcolm Collins: Great. All right.

Speaker 8: In

rah rah. What is it in?

What is it in? What is it? Girl,

what’s up? What is it? Girl?

What is it? Girl.

Are you looking at the light flickering in the big hallway? What’s going on? Wait, what? What?[01:23:00]

What on earth?

Speaker 10: You believe me? Now what? Wait. Well, what? Who are you? Who are you? Wait, wait, wait. Oh, where did you go? Who are you? He was actually pretty, he gave me this. He was so nice. What? Wait, he what? Mommy. He what? I

gave what? Wait. Where did he go? Where did he go? I love him. I love you. So nice, Andy. Was that what you were [01:24:00] steering at this whole time? Now do your boy now tell that you believe him? Tell dad I need you. I need, you know what?

Straight women are going absolutely feral over Heated Rivalry — the steamy gay hockey romance series that nobody saw coming. From TikTok edits to viral thirst posts, this Canadian show (now on HBO) has become a global obsession, even trending in places where it’s banned.

In this episode, Simone & Malcolm Collins dive deep into why women can’t get enough of male-on-male romance — from Yuri on Ice to Boys’ Love manga, slash fiction since the 1970s, and the surprising evolutionary & psychological reasons behind it.

We cover:

* The “women can’t love” red-pill theory (Simone’s most based take ever)

* Why go woke go broke has one massive exception

* The difference between real gay relationships and the fantasy versions women crave

* Power dynamics, objectification, escape from gender politics, and much more

Is this just harmless escapism… or proof of something deeper about female desire?

Simone outlined this episode, so the informal notes are below, and the transcript follows. :)

Episode Notes: Why do straight women lust after gay men?

The Gist

* Gay Men on Ice are Trending!

* Before 6am this morning alone, I heard about the show Heated Rivalry, which features steamy sex scenes between two hockey rivals, four times: Two from friends who listen to the podcast, two from YouTubers I listen to in the mornings

* One of our Patrons encouraged us to do an episode on the trending topic, writing:

* “Why do straight women love to lust after gay men?

* There seems to be a current cultural infatuation with these gay hockey players and the video I shared by Brett Cooper delves into the current craze. This has always baffled me because of the obvious incompatibility, but this has long been a cultural stereotype, it doesn’t seem to be a new cultural phenomenon but I don’t know how timeless it is either but it’s definitely intercultural.

* I’m also personally invested into this topic given that a lot of girls growing up told me things along the lines of “ I wish you were gay” or “ you have to be gay. ” I even had a group of about 4 female friends I had, make a plan to try to convince their parents I was gay so we could all go together to a vacation house. ( though nothing happened)

* I’m just wondering and would love Malcolm’s input on the subject.”

So let’s dive in.

Heated Rivalry

* It’s a Canadian sports romance series that exploded into a massive cultural phenomenon since its premiere on November 28, 2025.

* It’s an adaptation of Rachel Reid’s “Game Changers” book series (specifically drawing from the novel Heated Rivalry), created, written, and directed by Jacob Tierney for a Canadian streaming service called Crave

* HBO Max acquired rights for a day-and-date release in the US and other territories, turning it into a global breakout.

The show follows two elite, closeted professional hockey players—Shane Hollander and Ilya Rozanov—who are fierce on-ice rivals but develop an intense, secret romantic and sexual relationship. It features explicit, steamy scenes.

It’s been called one of the biggest surprises in TV, a “word-of-mouth sensation” (even HBO execs were shocked), and a rare hit centered on gay characters that didn’t get canceled after one season.

Why is it trending?

* The first season wrapped up in December and a second season was approved

* Its popularity is snowballing after the series started with little promotion but exploded via word-of-mouth, especially on social media (TikTok fan edits, thirst posts, etc.), becoming a “social phenomenon.”

* Viewership on HBO Max surged dramatically—starting low but growing over 10x by the finale (from ~30 million to 324 million streaming minutes weekly, per Luminate data).

* It’s Crave’s most-watched original ever and HBO Max’s top debut for an acquired non-animated title since 2019.

Key factors driving the hype:

* The show has high ratings: 98% on Rotten Tomatoes, praise for directing, writing, chemistry between leads, and handling of queer themes in a macho sport like hockey.

* The show has a massive online community (”HudCon” ship for the stars), viral clips, and fan events (even internation al ones like in the Philippines)

* The show resonated widely, including in places like Russia (even though it’s banned there), and sparked discussions on queer representation in sports.

But it should not be surprising that women see man-on-man romance and eat it right up.

* Think of the Sherlock shipping

* Think of how women can’t even watch The Lorax without creating Oncest (once-ler shipping)

Yaoi & Boys Love

I was first introduced to fangirling over male-male relationships in high school when my friends loaned me yaoi manga. Turns out Yaoi has a long history which could arguably go back to:

* (Arguably) History’s first novel, the Tale of Genji

* Which was written by the Japanese noblewoman Murasaki Shikibu in the early 11th century

* And has an episode involving Genji and a beautiful boy named Kogimi, the younger brother of the lady Utsusemi.

* Involving Genji and a beautiful boy named Kogimi, the younger brother of the lady Utsusemi.

* After Genji fails to win over Utsusemi, the text notes almost in passing that he “consoles himself” in bed with Kogimi, and later remarks that Genji finds the boy in some ways more attractive than his distant sister, which many scholars read as an allusion to male–male eroticism.

But yaoi as a genre didn’t emerge until girls’ manga got big in the 1970s and as Japanese fanfiction culture (dōjinshi) rose with it

* Boy-boy romance wasn’t pioneered by fan fiction:

* Mari Mori’s 1961 book A Lovers’ Forest is often cited as the first modern Japanese novel focused on male homosexual passion written by a woman for women. It influenced later BL/yaoi tropes (age gaps, aesthetic beauty, tragedy).

* In the early 1970s, the Year 24 Group (女性漫画家グループ, a collective of influential female manga artists born around 1949, the 24th year of the Shōwa era) pioneered shōnen-ai (”boy love”)

* Key figures created romantic, often tragic stories featuring beautiful, androgynous young men (bishōnen) in male-male relationships. These were original works published in mainstream shōjo magazines, influenced by European literature and art

* The launch of the magazine June (originally Comic Jun) in 1978 was pivotal—it specialized in shōnen-ai/tanbi content, helping formalize and spread the genre commercially (though it focused more on aesthetic romance than explicit sex).

* HOWEVER yaoi is about fan fiction

* The rise of Comiket (Comic Market, first held in 1975) and dōjinshi culture gave female fans a space to create and share parody works outside mainstream publishing constraints.

* The term “yaoi” itself is a portmanteau coming from from “yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi” (山[場]なし、落ちなし、意味なし), which translates to “no climax, no point, no meaning” (or sometimes “no peak, no punchline, no meaning”).

* It was originally used in a self-deprecating, ironic way to describe male-male smutty shipping (often of boys’ manga or anime characters)

* By the 1980s, yaoi dōjinshi exploded in popularity at fan events. In the 1990s, the genre went more mainstream/commercial under the term “boys’ love” (BL / bōizu rabu), as publishers recruited dōjinshi creators and launched dedicated magazines.

Not Limited to Japan

* The 1960s-70s brought first major wave of organized slash fiction

* It emerged among mostly female fans writing fan fiction

* Examples of early shipping were Kirk-Spock fanfiction arcs. Private circulation of stories imagining romantic/sexual relationships between male characters. This marks the start of modern, community-driven female interest.

The Gay Ice Skater Bridge?

One of the more popular male-on-male anime romances in the 2010s was Yuri on Ice

* The series premiered on October 6, 2016, and ended on December 22, 2016

* It revolves around the relationships between Japanese figure skater Yuri Katsuki; his idol, Russian figure-skating champion Victor Nikiforov; and up-and-coming Russian skater Yuri Plisetsky; as the two Yuris compete in the Figure Skating Grand Prix

* It did really well

* It won three awards at the Tokyo Anime Award Festival, a Japan Character Award, seven awards in the Crunchyroll’s inaugural Anime Awards, and in 2019 was named by the website’s editorial team as one of the top 25 anime of the 2010s.

So… Why Are Women Into Boy’s Love?

* Safe exploration of desire and/or escapism: Takes the female audience member (and her insecurities) out of the picture

* Both women and men feel pressure to perform in sex and when their entire sex is absent, that pressure lifts

* Ability to avoid gender politics or gender wars

* It’s porn without the porn discourse because women aren’t involved

* Emotional depth: Some argue that male friendships in media often carry intense bonds that women readers/ writers “romanticize” or eroticize.

* Reminds me of red pillars asserting women are incapable of real love

* So maybe do women also think that men feel love more powerfully?

* Aesthetic appeal: Women like looking at male bodies, duh

* Similar to men wanting lesbian porn

* Power dynamics: In heterosexual stories, gender roles can feel restrictive; male-male pairings provide more flexibility.

And Why are Women Into Gay Men?

* Safety from sexual pressure and competition

* Experiments show straight women rate mating-related advice from gay men as more trustworthy than advice from straight men or other women, because they do not suspect hidden sexual motives or rivalry.

* Studies also suggest women feel that gay male friends value them beyond their bodies, which can boost self-esteem and body image compared to interactions with straight men.

* Researchers have argued that attractive women in particular may seek out gay male friends because they expect both: (a) safety from sexual exploitation, and (b) high-quality, “unbiased” advice on dating and self-presentation to men

* Mutual support in a heterosexist, patriarchal context

* Qualitative work on women and gay men suggests women may feel that gay men understand harassment, stigma, and gender policing better than straight men do, creating a sense of “we’re on the same side.”

* Some theorists argue that the bond is partly about shared resistance to traditional masculinity: both groups may reject or parody “macho” norms and instead celebrate emotional expressiveness, camp, and nontraditional gender roles.

* Attraction to campy, aesthetically intense performances of gender

* Symbolic identification with marginalized, resilient figures—plus a parallel critique that all this can slip into stereotype and commodification

Episode Transcript

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Maybe the red pillars are right. Maybe women love, well, maybe women are incapable of love. And also women know it too, and that’s why they like to watch men love each other, because they love to observe these strange creatures who are capable of love.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. That is the most based Simone. Simone that’s going at the front of the video. I That is. That is, I had never considered this before. Right. Right. And I think you might be right.

Simone Collins: go woke, go broke has one massive exception and it’s when , the wokeness is for a leering, non woke audience that just wants to thirst over when you are objectifying

Malcolm Collins: the person.

Simone Collins: Yeah. When you we, yes. When, when you are objectifying.

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm.

I’m excited to be speaking with you today because gay men on ice are trending and before

Malcolm Collins: Gary, Gary, Gary on ice, that anime, we, we watched like two episodes of it or something about gay men on ice.

Simone Collins: It’s, yeah, but they’re figure skaters. And today we’re talking about hockey [00:01:00] skaters because literally what, before 6:00 AM this morning alone, I heard about the show heated rivalry, which features steamy sex scenes between two hockey rivals.

Four times two were from like YouTubers and then. Two or from friends.

Malcolm Collins: Why was everybody talking about this seems like a normal thing in media these days. Why is, why are people talking about this?

Simone Collins: No, no. This is different. This is different. And okay. Also, one of our, one of our patrons encouraged me to do an episode on this because it’s trending that much.

And they’re like, what is going on? So they wrote, why do straight women love to Lust after Gay Men? Because that’s the thing people are talking about. They’re not talking about the show per se. They’re talking about the women posting TikTok reactions to it and edits of it. And like, this is women fangirling over it.

So this person wrote, there seems to be current cultural fascination with these gay hockey players. And the video I shared by Brett Cooper delves into the current craze ‘cause she did this whole thing on it. This has always baffled me because the obvious. [00:02:00] Incompatibility, but this is long-winded cultural stereotype.

It doesn’t seem to be a new cultural phenomenon, but I don’t know how timeless it is either because it’s definitely intercultural. I’m also personally interested in this topic, given that a lot of girls growing up told me things like, I wish you were gay, or You have to be gay. I even had a group of four female friends, I had make a plan to try to convince their parents I was gay so we could all go together to a vacation house.

Though nothing happened. My condolences by the way, I’m just wondering and would love Malcolm’s input on the subject. So we need your analysis, Malcolm. Okay, so let’s, let’s dive in. I’m, I’m gonna tell you about heated rivalry ‘cause that’s kind of, hold, hold on. I need to for,

Malcolm Collins: for context for people. So if you’re a guy.

Okay. There is a major problem in sites like PornHub with DEI just flooding everything. I swear about a third of the women on there are lesbians are bi and that just cannot be true of the general population. And I’m, of course, I’m joking [00:03:00] here. The joke is that, of course men have a, a preference for many men do for watching erotic content with lesbians in it or with multiple women in it, with one guy.

That’s to why so many guys have this preference. It should be fairly obvious from an evolutionary perspective. There is no context in which you are watching another man. Sleep was a woman. Unless something really bad is happening and you are not being cupped, right? Like this is not something that you should genetically like to see.

All right? This should be one of the most mortifying sites to you, a man, unless we’re able to just totally dissociate or somewhat gay. Actually, I remember when I was in high school my roommate. We’re talking about porn at one point, and he was like you know, describing what he liked.

And I was like, oh, I, I never watch anything. Was any men in it ever? And he was very surprised by this. And he’s like, [00:04:00] really? And I was like, yeah, it’s a, it’s a massive turnoff to me to see a man, to literally see myself being cut somewhere in this world. Mm-hmm. Because that’s, you’re watching a video of you not having sex with someone.

That is, that is what that is. And he just couldn’t understand it. Anyway, turned out he was super gay. He just, did he know it

Simone Collins: at the time? He just didn’t know it.

Malcolm Collins: He didn’t fully know it at the time. No. But yeah, he was, he was gay. So, what I’m pointing out is that I, I, that, that is why men have that preference, right?

But with men it’s di with, with women, it’s different. Okay.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: With women, we’re dealing with a scenario where where

Simone Collins: women aren’t really as oriented to male or female, primary and secondary sexual characteristics so much as they’re oriented around. Power dynamics.

Malcolm Collins: Like, like, like genetically, historically, it’s not that bad for them, right?

Like a lot of women were you know, there were certain periods of human history where 17 women bred for only one man that bred, that meant on average people had 17 what on [00:05:00] average, 17 wives, right? Mm-hmm. So women being okay with you know, the husband sleeping with one girl and then sleeping with them they were gonna have more kids than the ones who were like grossed out or itched out by that or whatever.

So it is weirder that women seem to have a pretty strong, now, we pointed out in the Pragmatic Guide to Sexuality, when we did a big study on this, it was the, the first really big study ever done on this in this way. And what we showed is that if you count erotic novels as the same as porn that women consume.

Exactly as much pornography as men do. Mm-hmm. And there’s this assumption that women consume a lot less pornography than men do because these studies were all created by men originally and they did not consider something like 50 Shades of Gray or Twilight pornography market.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Or, or you know, I think that I’d also put in there things like a Handmaid’s Tale.

But you please, please don’t force breed me in front of a bunch of high status [00:06:00] women. But anyway I mean, from a genetic perspective, that’s exactly what a woman would want. Right. Like, a, a scenario like that where basically they are cing this high status woman.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They are actually technically speaking with them

Malcolm Collins: and then raising them as high status kids.

Yeah. Right. Like that is. Mortifying that than, sorry. That is, that is exactly what genetically they’re, you’re coded to want to happen to you. It’s like an a, a, perfect. And we’ve done an episode on a go see if you wanna say, but the point I’m making here is. If you know girls, like if you hang out with like, gerd, girl nerd culture which is something that, you know, I have done a lot.

Growing up I was a very nerdy guy. And one thing you will learn about girl nerd, nerd culture is that things like yi are really, really common. These are, and we’re gonna talk

Simone Collins: about that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, but what I’m saying is like, this isn’t new, right? Like, this has been around since [00:07:00] forever.

We’re gonna talk

Simone Collins: about the history and, but it, it goes beyond that because there is this trope of the ma the, the gay best friend for women. There’s not the lesbian guest best friend for men, you know, not enough

Malcolm Collins: lesbians.

Simone Collins: I don’t think there would be best friend if I could have a lesbian best

Malcolm Collins: friend. I probably would.

No, you wouldn’t. Women are pretty

Simone Collins: terrible. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t. No, no. Don’t lie. But yeah, like, so it’s, anyway, a lot of people are talking about it now though, because of heated rivalry. And you, you hadn’t even heard of it before. So I need to bring you up to speed on this, this whirlwind hit of a show, because it is the thing these days.

So, oh, gimme a moment. Are we good?

Gimme a moment. Ms. Fussy is your un fuss. Okay. So Heated Rivalry is a Canadian sports [00:08:00] romance series that completely exploded out unexpectedly into a massive cultural phenomenon since its premier, premier in November of last year. So it’s just three months old. Basically, in terms of American audiences, it is an adaptation of Rachel Reed’s Game Changers book series, which was drawing from the novel Heated Romance, that’s why it’s called Heated Romance.

So this like with 50 Shades of Gray, this is a book to. You know, show jump. And it was originally created for a Canadian streaming service called Crave, which makes sense. ‘cause I mean, Canadians in hockey, like, okay, checks out fine, but it’s like made for some small streaming service in Canada about gay hockey players.

You, you wouldn’t think it was going to become big and the HBO execs who licensed it for basically streaming in in the US and elsewhere, totally didn’t expect this to become a thing. They didn’t really promote it, they just [00:09:00] put it up and we’re like, yeah, fine. This, you know, we, we gotta diversify our portfolio or whatever.

And it just somehow. Went out of control into, I mean, it, it shouldn’t be surprising, we’re gonna go into that, but it became a global breakout. The show follows two elite closeted professional hockey players, Shane Hollander and Ilya ov, who are fierce on the ice rivals, but develop an intense secret, romantic and sexual relationship.

It features explicit steamy scenes. I have not watched any of them. I, I don’t really want to. But it, it has been called one of the biggest surprises on tv. It, even HBO execs who really vouch for it to be brought on are surprised it did so well. And people think that it. Would’ve gotten canceled in its first season, like they were sure it wasn’t gonna get renewed or anything.

But as of December, it has gotten a second season. That’s one of the reasons why it’s trending right now, is people are excited. It’s getting a second [00:10:00] season filming is gonna begin in the summer of this year. But specifically the reason this went crazy is because of just intense word of mouth fangirling, primarily from women who are making all of these TikTok cuts of it who are talking about on social media, how it’s changed their lives and how they just can’t get over it.

And there are all these thirst posts about it, and it’s really become a social phenomenon, even in Russia where it’s banned because as we’ve discussed in other episodes, you can’t have same sex. Content. And now you can’t have antinatalists content or dink content in Russia. So the fact that this is trending even in Russia that people can’t get enough of, it, shows how hard it is, especially for women to resist male on male romance.

And in general, apparently the show is actually really good. It has a 98% un rotten tomatoes. And apparently it’s really well cast and written and [00:11:00] the, the chemistry is really strong between the, the male leads who have this romance. And then there’s just this massive online community with people making viral clips.

And there are even fan events, like there was even a fan event in the Philippines. So this isn’t just Russia. Okay, this isn’t just the United States or Canada. This is literally a global phenomenon. Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: but what’s interesting about this is. People found out the secret, right? Yeah. When you, they kept putting gay people in everything and nobody wanted to watch it uhhuh because they put gay people in stuff.

Mm-hmm. But the audience for it was gay people. Yeah. If you wanna put hot lesbians and stuff, guys aren’t gonna complain about that. We can. No, no. That’s the thing is, is

Simone Collins: go woke, go broke has one massive exception and it’s when , the wokeness is for a leering, non woke audience that just wants to thirst over when you are objectifying

Malcolm Collins: the person.

Simone Collins: Yeah. When you we, yes. When, when you are objectifying. Yeah. Like you have to me too. The woke people. [00:12:00] And then, and then it’s great when they’re being exploited, when they’re being layered at, when people are fing over, you know them, then, then it’s, then it’s gonna totally make money. The thing

Malcolm Collins: that, it’s not even about fing.

Like, I don’t think that many women are like, fing over this. And there’s a lot of stuff that guys alike where you have sexy women and people aren’t actually fing over it. Right? Sure. They aren’t. Malcolm, they, the, the, the, you didn’t need to be able to fap to like the original Laura Croft to prefer looking at an attractive woman as your avatar over a man, as your avatar.

And this is the thing today, everyone is all like, oh, all the main characters are women, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. I, I think that we, you know, broadly on the right. We need to recategorize how we’re saying this. No one had a problem with stellar blade’s. Main character being a woman. In fact, we loved it until they decided to start censoring it.

You know? The, the, the, the problem is, is that they are ugly women that are meant to be non-threatening to the studio people who are putting these in. We need to not, [00:13:00] it’s not that we are against, women being, being in our video games or in our, they just need

Simone Collins: to be hot.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: We just want them. We’re not against same, same sex relationships.

We, they just need to be hot. Actually, you know what a really good point though about it’s not a lot of the same sex couples, no hold on. The same sex couples that are in the goo Go broke like Disney movies and stuff is that they one, aren’t hot. And two, it’s all about like interpersonal conflict and my feelings and our struggles.

And no one wants to watch that. They like

Malcolm Collins: kids. No, but there’s, the point I’m making is they don’t need to be. Hot. They need to be objectified. That is even more important than being hot, right? Like the oh, my struggles and stuff. That’s not objectifying them, right? Mm-hmm. They’re humanizing. Oh, so you need to dehumanize them.

That’s not accurate though, because No, I didn’t say you need to dehumanize them. You need to objectify them. So if you look at something like, let’s take Tomb Raider, Laura Croft, by the way. Right?

Simone Collins: Okay. [00:14:00] Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If you watch the way Laura Croft runs or jumps at a ledge, or,

Malcolm Collins: oh, so basically

Simone Collins: you need fan service.

Malcolm Collins: It’s no, but she does it in a way that is objectified. Right? If you look at the new Laura Croft games, which did pretty well, and I quite liked the Laura Croft reboots what is the number one thing that we are doing to Laura Croft in those games? We are putting her in horrible situations where she is getting horrifyingly injured or beaten.

That is, that is what is constantly happening to her, and she is never whining about it. Okay?

Malcolm Collins: The, the jazz animation dying are over the top, and I have never seen death animations like that. They’re, they’re literally like above Mortal Kombat level [00:15:00] death animation. Are you serious? Because the Mortal Kombat ones just look over the top and gruesome, and these look very realistic.

Oh, no. God, like, you know, like getting caught in a river. And then a stake go through her, her chin and up through the side of her head. Oh, gosh. Wow. A fast river while hitting a bunch of B Rock. Okay. So stuff, it’s over the top, but what I’m saying is that, is objectifying the individual, right?

Like, well, I can’t, I haven’t watched,

Simone Collins: I haven’t watched the show. Okay, hold on. Let’s go back. The,

Malcolm Collins: the character who everyone always says is like, oh, men, like strong female leads, blah, blah, blah. Strong female leads are, okay. Is Ridley from aliens, right? Ripley, Ripley, rip Ripley, Ripley Ripley from, so Ripley is actually a fairly objectified character throughout the Alien series.

So, okay. What, what is it that has happened to her? What, what happened to her? She was forcibly impregnated with an alien [00:16:00] that was put inside her without her consent. No,

Simone Collins: she wasn’t. One of her crew mates was,

Malcolm Collins: she was in number two, the one that did really well. She was, yeah, that’s her whole thing. And then she be, takes on like a mother role in like number three or four or something to one of the areas.

No, I remember that. That was created from her DNA, so not only is is she in, in most of them, she’s either taking on a, a motherly role. Like there’s the one that had like the ghostly version. It was the last like decent one made.

Simone Collins: I remember one with a little girl hiding in the ventilation and I won’t remember the first one.

Yeah, that was the

Malcolm Collins: first one and she wasn’t forcibly. But even in that one, if you look at the role that she takes on, it is very much an objectified girl, boss wrote role. Very much like if you’re gonna say like, what’s an example of a guy taking on an objectified masculine role? I’d say blade is a very good example of a guy taking on an objectified masculine role.

It’s not a realistic masculine role. [00:17:00] It’s a role that is over the top to the point of being fetishized.

Simone Collins: Okay. I think I may follow you, but I’m not, I don’t actually think that this show does that. I mean, it’s really known for having. Just amazing direction and character development you’re forgetting, you’re looking at this totally through the male gaze, and you’re not thinking about the female gaze on the male gaze, AKA, the men who love each other.

You are thinking about this as a man looking at women. You are not thinking about this as the way that women look at men and totally the thing that women like isn’t, I mean, yeah, the bodies look good, but they’re there for the romantic tension. That’s what yi’s all about. That’s what heated rivalry is all about.

And so I I, I, I appreciate your explanation of how men look at this when they’re looking at female [00:18:00] characters. But the thing that drives female interest in male romance is, is different. It’s a different dynamic that you do not understand.

Malcolm Collins: No. Hold on. Actually, I’m gonna, I’m gonna push back. You’re gonna mansplain on this.

I you’re gonna explain to me how women

Simone Collins: consume gay content.

Malcolm Collins: I watch enough anime that there have been seasons when I run out of anime that is not Yi. And so I say, okay, I’ll try whatever the, the, it has an interesting premise. Okay. You

Simone Collins: only watched two episodes of Yuri on Ice.

Malcolm Collins: I’ve watched other ones to the end.

Okay. That were like sci-fi and I was more interested in I’m, I’m not like reflexively against it because first of all, you gotta keep in mind if, if you’re like watching this and you’re like, what, what does he mean? Like, does this stuff have sex in it usually? Actually never have I seen it have sex in it.

Yeah. This is, this is just like for girls with a lot of ywe stuff. It’s just like suggestive stuff. And then you’ve got some sci-fi story happening in the background anyway. The point I’m making is they do [00:19:00] not form relationships that are like real relationships the relationships that they form.

Think about you, you say you’ve read Yahweh before. Does, does the type of relationship that the two men form, does it look like the type of romance you see between a man and a woman in a mango?

Simone Collins: No. Not at all. No,

Malcolm Collins: it doesn’t. It’s completely objectified. It is. What? And, and actually there’s a, even like a thing online, like a trend of this where gay men watch or, or read ywe and then react to laughingly at the, at the way that women portray gay male relationship.

Oh, just how,

Simone Collins: like, this is not how it works at all. Yeah, yeah. Like this

Malcolm Collins: is not how it works at all.

Simone Collins: And it’s not, it’s really not. Because I when, when I have sleepless nights and I. Get curious and I just don’t, I’m too stressed and I wanna like forget who I am. I go to all the NSFW subreddits, so I know, I know all the fetishes, I know all the weird stuff that people consume, and therefore I [00:20:00] also have seen a lot of gay porn.

And I, I’ve, and I like, you know, we, we’ve all like, we we also have gay friends too. No, like, it, because like y Yahweh is very, it’s typically about like crushes turning into romantic tension, turning into like these encounters, whereas like out out gay relationships as we know them, are a lot more based and effective and pragmatic.

I think the biggest differentiation that I see between the typical male romance as depicted in Ywe and I think probably also in heated rivalry is that there are a lot more closeted and there’s a lot more tension and crushes and dancing around things, whereas in, in real life. You’re just getting basically men being much more optimal partners for each other than women could ever be for men.

I don’t know how else to put it. So like, I mean, I, I’d point

Malcolm Collins: out to people that that [00:21:00] this is very similar to if, if you like, showed a lesbian, lesbian like porn, mint for men, lesbian porn, mint for men. They say this is nothing like what actual lesbian sex is like. Well, yeah, I mean

Simone Collins: also like, just look at how morphologically different erotic material online lesbians look from.

Lesbians at Trader Joe’s, you know what I mean? They’re very, it’s a different look. It’s a very different look,

Malcolm Collins: but it’s, it’s both

Simone Collins: lovely. But

Malcolm Collins: I, I think you’re getting a better example of what men would want to do to women, or what women want men to do to them when they’re in the opposite role. When you’re watching same gender stuff.

This is why in, for example, in real lesbian relationships, using strap-on is incredibly rare. That’s just not used much in real lesbian sex

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Point. But in lesbian porn, it’s incredibly common because you want one of them to take on the, the male role. It’s the same with the Yi, which you’re actually seeing is one of the men taking on a woman’s role.

But we’ll get into why as you go further.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So [00:22:00] let’s, yeah. But anyway, I think it’s really funny. It’s humorous to me that everyone’s shocked that heated rivalry is doing so well, and that women are going crazy for it. When like, literally we couldn’t even have shows like Sherlock without people.

Completely. And, and, and, and psychopath Shipping people You mean women? Yeah. Sorry. Without women obsessively pairing Watson and Sherlock in, in fan fiction that we, we can’t even have kids movies like the Lorax without people literally shipping the winsler against himself. For, for what, what, what do they call it?

Ancest one est. They, they, they, like, this is, this is how psychopathic women are in their need for, for boys love. There’s only one character they’re kind of into, it’s okay, we’ll just double him and have him have him. I don’t know. Come on to himself. It’s, it’s, it’s intense, this, this female instinct.

And so, [00:23:00] yeah, I, I, I want to, I want to go into Yi and Boys love and the history and the dynamics behind it because I think it’s, it’s interesting and, and

Malcolm Collins: I also wanna know one thing about it and, and you can tell me if you think this is wrong. Yeah. It is, it seems to be an instinct that is stronger in younger women than older women.

I

Simone Collins: could see that maybe, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll, I’ll go into why I think that is at the end, but continue, Simone.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. Perfect. So Ywe, I, I dunno. When you first learned about Ywe, I learned about it when I was. In high school, and my friends who let me, all their manga gave me Ywe manga, and we all nerded out about it.

But it, it actually turns out I didn’t know this. Ywe has a really long history and it can argue, arguably go back to the first novel. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the, the Tale of Gen Genji. It, it’s, it’s argued that that was history’s first novel ‘cause it was a, a story written in narrative form.

Are you familiar with it at all?

Malcolm Collins: No. Tell me more. Well, we talked about it. I remember I read a bit of it and it just wasn’t that [00:24:00] impressive to me. But it’s not, but

Simone Collins: I mean, what, what are you gonna do? You know? But like, it’s also so funny though that like the world’s first bromance is also one of the earliest stories now that I come to think of it.

That, you know, the tale of Gilgamesh we had Anky do and was, it was his name Giles? It was Giles. It was a total bromance. Boys. Boys love. But anyway, the first novel for sure had at least a little bit. It was, it was, it was by the Japanese noble women, mur Kashi Shiku in the early 11th century. And while it’s not okay, a dedicated boys love novel.

There is one episode in which Genji and a beautiful boy named Kmi, the younger brother of Lady U oh, Tsui kind of get together. Okay. Like he, he first tries to come on to Lady Zumi, but then she isn’t that into him. So he, comforts himself in, [00:25:00] in bed or consoles himself in bed with, with Kmi. So that implies that he’s, he’s bi, but I mean the, the, the, the rest of the tales focus on his romances with women.

But there’s still a moment I, I feel like the author here, maybe a fan girl a little bit with some boys love, but Yi is a genre didn’t emerge until Girls Monga got big in the 1970s and this Japanese fan fiction culture emerged. And I think Fanfic Can Fiction culture correlates really highly with the prevalence of boys love romance.

And I think this has to do with the fact that women are really into it. But mainstream society doesn’t want to condone it, so you’re only gonna see it when women are unleashed and allowed to write things. And as soon as they’re allowed to, or as soon as, as, as their secret writings become more public through weird market dynamics like the rise of Doji Q, which is just basically.

Fan fiction, but Naked Manga and in Japan then, then you get it. [00:26:00] But boy, boy Romance was not necessarily pioneered by fan fiction. There’s this 1961 book by Mari Maury called A Lovers Forest, which is often cited as the first modern Japanese novel focused on male homosexual passion. And it was written by a woman for women.

So this really falls well into the category, and it did influence later boys love in Ywe tropes like age gaps and aesthetic Beauty and tragedy. And then later, about a decade later, in the early 1970s, the year 24 group, which was a collective of influential manga artists that were born in the 24th year of the Shoah era, pioneered sh and I, which is.

Translated to boys love the key figures, created romantic and often very tragic stories featuring very beautiful and very androgynous young men. Which you’ve probably heard of as bi in male male relationships, which were often influenced by [00:27:00] European art and sort of made to be very foreign maybe kind of to, to get you out of Japanese culture and morays.

But then the launch of a magazine called June in 1978 was really something that skyrocketed the genre because it’s specialized in this kind of content and formalize the genre. But really the, the fan fiction explosion in Japan is what made Yi big. There was this comic market called Comic Cat, which was first held in 1975.

Where Dochy fans were able to come together and kind of just all realize that they had these secret fantasies and stories that they wrote that were boys love focused. And this is where you start to see the, the word yi bandied about. Because, you know, before it’s, and even after, like it’s really been called boys love mostly, but I didn’t know.

Yi is a port mento coming from three, three words really. So the YAI and [00:28:00] ii and this translates to no climax, no point, no meaning, or sometimes no peak, no punchline and no meaning, which gets to your point that there often really isn’t like much going on in these plots. You know, it’s just sort of all like tension and vibes.

So I think you really zero in on something meaningful there. And it was. I think people who created Ywe as fan fiction have always been very self-deprecating and joking and ironic. Like they understand that what they create is, is s muddy fluff. And they, they, they don’t take themselves very seriously and they have fun with it.

But you also totally see this in the heated rivalry posts that people are making now online. They understand that they’re, they’re being kind of tery and funny and that this is utterly unserious, but they also just love it and can’t help themselves. And I think that’s really interesting. And I mean basically after the 1980s, YWE was here to stay, but [00:29:00] it kind of evolved more just broadly into boys love.

And it went from being something that was primarily fan fiction or in really niche publications to stuff that was just mainstream. So by the time you get to like the 2010s, you get to show like the one we mentioned, Yuri on Ice, which. Involves, we didn’t really explain what it was. It, it’s basically about this relationship between the Japanese figure skater, Yuri Kazuki and his idol, who’s this Russian figure skater champion named Victor Nikki for of, or I can’t remember his last name.

I think it’s Nikki for of, or something like that. And then this other, other skater also called Yuri like Yuri, Yuri Ky. And basically the two Yuri’s compete in this grand figure skating Grand Prix. And Victor is the coach to the Japanese Yuri, who is a crush on him and is like the, just the idol.

And it’s just really sweet and it’s really cute. And it was, it was award-winning. It did really well. It [00:30:00] only had, I think, 12 episodes or something. And it ran maybe from like 20, 20 16 or something. We didn’t see it until the. Like 2018 or something, I think. But

yeah.

Yeah, it was made a long time ago, but it was by that point mainstream, which is why I thought it was a major, it was a major enemy, and of course it made it to like American streaming platforms.

So, yeah. But then, I mean that’s, it’s just so funny though that some, there’s something about male love on ice that we just can’t get enough of. In fact, I tried to see if the, the writer of the original heated rivalry book was inspired by Yuri on Ice because the timeline kind of worked for me.

And the author and all the people also associated with the original creation of the show cite tons of real world hockey rivalries and all sorts of other inspirations. So it’s not like they don’t talk about their inspiration, but apparently this is just truly convergently evolved fetishization of men on ice [00:31:00] skates being into each other because they do not cite Uri on ice at all.

And it appears that they really have no, they have no hat nods to each other. Like, heated rivalry has, doesn’t do anything to kind of hint at the fact that it was inspired by Yuri on Ice.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, Yuri on Ice is not about rivalry, it’s about like, mentorship and, and close. It appears to be a different dynamic that they’re playing.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They like the, the characters are made to look very vulnerable in Yuri on Ice.

Simone Collins: Well, the characters are, are, are somewhat vulnerable and, and heated rivalry too. But yeah, I mean, it’s, it would be as if well I guess we didn’t watch all of Yuri on Ice. I don’t know if the two Yuri also kind of get into each other, but I think, I mean, at least as far as we saw Intuit, it was only about, the, yeah, this was like trainer student dynamic or I idol and fan dynamic instead. I’m, I’m just not sure though, so who knows? But we should point out that there was also this really, the big first major wave of slash fiction did [00:32:00] also emerge around the 16 and seventies at the same time in the United States.

So it’s not like this is just a Japanese thing. And as our, our paid subscriber pointed out this, this is kind of a, a cross-cultural thing. This is not limited to any particular subgroup. Do you know what the first really big popular pairing in a fictional and universe in. Zines in nerdy zines in the 1960s and 74.

Yeah, of course

Malcolm Collins: it was Spock and Kirk, that’s, Colin knows their, the history of porn knows this one back and forth, Simone,

Simone Collins: the OTP, you gotta, you gotta, they must kiss, they must be together forever. Yes, you were absolutely right. So, yes, I, this is, this is something again, and I, I really don’t, I don’t think it’s that this is a new instinct.

I just think that this was the era in which fans were finally able to converge and share their dirty little secrets. And that’s how it all came to be. So anyway, I think that that’s, that’s interesting. But let’s answer the question, [00:33:00] why are women into boys love? And there’s first, I think, the really obvious answer that everyone gives, which is that for women especially, this is a, a way to very safely explore their desires and kind of es escape.

The things that hold them back sexually while still really indulging. So when they’re watching these romances and even when they get pretty steamy and explicit, they can do so in a way that really feels escapist and fun because they, all of their insecurities are out of the picture. They’re not thinking about, well, how do my boobs compare?

Or like, my thighs, or like, they, they also, I think women feel a lot of pressure to perform Oh, and men do too sexually. And I think for both men and women, same sex erotic material, it can be comforting or at least less disjointed because they don’t feel the need or as much prompting to think personally about their own performance.

[00:34:00] They’re just. Completely enjoying the I guess eroticism or sexuality. I’m gonna,

Malcolm Collins: I’m gonna argue that this is what women often say.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: they actually mean something else. When they say this,

Simone Collins: tell me what you think they mean.

Malcolm Collins: So. If you watch or read like, ywe books, right. Uhhuh you will see that if it was a real relationship, as we have said already, you would find the situation quite comical often.

Yeah. So like, this is ridiculous. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The reality is, is that women, if they saw a woman being objectified in the way that one of the male partners typically is, because one of the things that’s very common in Yahweh tropes is one of the males needs to be saved. He needs to be rescued. He’s incredibly vulnerable.

He’s incredibly unsure of himself, and a lot of modern women, if they saw a woman acting like that, the one who is [00:35:00] in the, the female role, often they’d be like, this is objectifying. This makes me uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Like, why is she, why does she need to be saved? Why is she acting so vulnerable? That was the next thing on

Simone Collins: my list actually.

I was like, you know, it really helps. That when it’s male, male romance, you get to avoid gender politics. Politics and gender wars. And in an era, especially now when there’s this increasing animosity and political divide between men and women, when it’s just two men that is just totally removed from the picture.

Men, you don’t have to think about all, but men are the enemy, men are the aggressor. Men are the, like, where was there consent? Like that just has been removed from the lexicon of this scenario and people could just have fun again. And I really do think that’s majorly underrated. That’s a really good point.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay. Continue.

Simone Collins: So some also argue that there’s an emotional depth thing going on that that male friendships and media often carry really intense bonds that women in just like to romanticize or eroticize. And I [00:36:00] find this theory really interesting because a common theme that came up when I was really into red pill forums, like around, we’ll say like 20 between 2017 and 2019.

It was often discussed that women are incapable of love. This was a really common statement and I didn’t get it because I am a, an autistic refrigerator mom who of course is incapable of love and also is incapable of imagining and all the other things. So I was like, well, I don’t know. Maybe they, maybe they can’t, maybe they can.

It just seems odd to say that one that, that all females can’t love. But then I hear, I hear this theory and I’m like, wait a second. Maybe the red pillars are right. Maybe women love, well, maybe women are incapable of love. And also women know it too, and that’s why they like to watch men love each other, because they love to observe these strange creatures who are capable of love.

Oh my God. That is the most

Malcolm Collins: based Simone. Simone that’s going at the front of the video. I That is. That is, I had never [00:37:00] considered this before. Right. Right. And I think you might be right. I think, I think I’m on, women are aware of how sociopathic women act in relationships.

Simone Collins: Alts, and then this proves, this proves it.

We finally found the proof to the Red pill theory that women aren’t capable of love, which is the fact that when women want True romance, they watch two men loving each other.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They’re like, they’re like, one of the, when they see a woman in it, they’re like, one of these women has to be, you know? Yeah.

They’re like, it’s fake. She’s in it for money.

Simone Collins: She’s in it for money that this is Yeah. I, I, I want real love. She didn’t just to screw him. I want, I want something that’s true. Like I want true love. I wanna watch true love between two people. It can only happen between two men. Yeah. It’s, yeah. That’s, so there’s that.

There’s of course the aesthetic appeal, but you know, like women like looking at male bodies, and it’s the same with men wanting to watch lesbian porn. You just wanna look at the, you wanna look at the body type you’re attracted to. You don’t wanna look at your own body. Well, I mean, I

Malcolm Collins: don’t, again, I don’t think that that’s the, the, the reason why men, like lesbian, lesbian porn is more like a, [00:38:00] a deeper biological instinct because you don’t want any other men in your, like, you really don’t want any other men anywhere near a woman who you want carrying your child.

Right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: I, I’ve, well, here’s the thing actually though, I, I have to say, like, having seen a lot of drawn and real, just, I’ve seen all the porn in, in male female porn, even when it’s made for women, the men are disgusting. And their penises are disgusting. I don’t know what to tell you. Like they aren’t gross.

I dunno who is

Malcolm Collins: watching that stuff because like,

Simone Collins: I, I dunno who, I dunno who is either because it’s gross and, but also even in hentai male bodies. Ooh. Like in, in, in hentai oriented around men.

Malcolm Collins: It de depends. I mean I’ve, I’ve definitely seen that in some, and I always find it really weird when that’s the case.

It’s,

Simone Collins: yeah. Why, why are the men so

Malcolm Collins: disgusting? No, but there’s, there’s a type of like fetish that I guess is not that uncommon for like older or ugly or fat men to be the, it’s, well that shows

Simone Collins: up [00:39:00] a lot in he tide, but in but I don’t know what it is. I think in live, in live action corn. For women, the men are gross.

They, they are not attractive. Maybe, maybe they’re attractive to someone, but they’re not attractive to me. And they also don’t look like the, the men that women thirst after in fan fiction communities, or like the men on the covers of romances books or like the Men Who star. Okay. Movies for women. They don’t look like any of those.

They don’t look like the, I have,

Malcolm Collins: I have a thesis on why this is the case, Simone,

Simone Collins: because women like high value, smart, and capable men, and those men don’t go to become porn stars.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I, I have a thesis on this. Okay, fine. Here is the thesis. It goes like this. So you, you’ve got somebody like me who’s just so averse to the idea of watching another guy have sex with a woman that I’m like, what?

Why? That is the worst thing in the world. Right? Okay. But there’s other guys who might be able to watch this happening, but just completely blot out from their minds. The, the man in the, in the act. [00:40:00] Mm-hmm. It’s just them. And because they’re blotting out the man in their mind, they’re not focusing on the man at all.

Simone Collins: Malcolm, I am talking about erotic material that was filmed and shot for female audiences what I’m saying is that in, in stuff for women, the men don’t look like the men cast in movies that women watch, they don’t look like the men that women fantasize about in fan fiction.

They don’t look like any of those and they also don’t look like popular men. Among women in, in real life. They look gross. And so I guess I have not seen, but when you look at gay erotic material, the men look fantastic. So what’s up with that? And of course, you don’t look at, first, you don’t even look at live action erotic material.

‘cause it’s gross. And I get it because it is gross. And you keep thinking of like, this is someone’s son, this is someone’s daughter, this is someone, you know, it’s blah, there’s too much baggage. But like, even if you did, you wouldn’t look at the stuff that’s made for female audiences. But I’m telling you [00:41:00] it, the men are, no, I’m pulling it up right now.

I’m pulling up

Malcolm Collins: the porn for women in Chick-fil-A subreddit. I wanna, I wanna see what you’re talking about.

Simone Collins: You’ll see exactly what I mean. And I’m like, what is going on? But anyway, if you actually, if you, if you thing, if your source of arousal as a woman is gorgeous male bodies, you’re gonna watch gay men.

Malcolm Collins: Period. You’re, you are right. This

Simone Collins: is told you, I’m told. I know. What is that? So anyway, I do actually think that that is, that is a thing. It’s not that, oh well, like evolutionarily, I, I get what point And that’s real. And women aren’t, they, they don’t really need. They don’t need to see like the, the presence of a woman isn’t defensive, but that’s not the problem.

The problem is that the men arely in straight live action porn for women. Anyway, there’s also a theory among some that there’s a power dynamic element to this too, that in heterosexual couplings, the power dynamics are more restrictive. I mean, at the very least, you have the same phenomenon you have [00:42:00] in sports where there’s just one party that’s much stronger than the other.

So that just kind of changes the way that any sort of scenario would play out. And with two men, it’s, it’s different or things just feel more like there’s more flexibility in how things can play out. And so allegedly that’s something that’s, that’s less weak. To me, the most interesting thing of all these theories for me was the men are capable of real love.

That’s,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, I, I, I think I think that’s a big one. And I think the other big one is that the, the characters in it are so objectified that if they saw a woman being treated this way, yeah, they would feel uncomfortable due to feminist brainwashing.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, the politics element of that is, is huge.

And I do think now more than ever, there’s so much baggage, cultural baggage around me too, and, and consent and all these, ah, and it’s just so annoying, especially given that we know, statistically speaking, many women are reading into non-consent and it’s really hard. There’s a lot [00:43:00] of cognitive dissonance that would come to a woman who’s into non-consent, who’s into power dynamics, but who also sees herself as all about consent.

That’s and all about female empowerment.

Malcolm Collins: That’s a good point actually. And this is

Simone Collins: the one way where she can get non-consent and she can get one power party being disempowered without feeling any cognitive dissonance or, you know, oh, I’m failing my kind, I’m failing my in, you know, my internal model. You know, they’re, they’re not

Malcolm Collins: because it’s just guys.

There was a a, a scene that’s really common in Ywe which is when one of the, the guys sort of forces himself to kiss the other guy, you know, like, know it’s so hot. It’s so hot. The other guy’s like not really into it. And yeah, you saw this happening to a girl, you’d freak out. Yeah. You’d be

Simone Collins: like, or, or, or it would be hot for you, but you’d be like, Hmm.

But I feel guilty about feeling good about it. You know what I mean? Like, it’s, it’s, they don’t, and, and then it ruins the vibe because you, you wanna just, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There’s another so I read a lot of people who watch the podcast regularly know this, a lot of romance books, [00:44:00] not romance books, romance mangas made in South Korea for women about the like regency era, right?

Like, I just really love, like villain is sent to the pastor. Yeah. Like literally it’s,

Simone Collins: it’s dinner and he’s surrounded by kids who are literally climbing on him, but he’s still reading this.

Malcolm Collins: I am, I’ve got to see her do her thing at the vault. He needs to know, he needs to know what happens next. So I got, I get so addicted to these, love these.

And what I love about them now is so many good ones are being made into anime now. Oh really? Well, I recently saw one of the ones that I read that I really liked which was Dr. Elise is being made into an anime that’s coming out soon. And there’s a great, I’m actually rewatching one right now like, on trying to be the best villainist, I, I forget what it’s called, like I’m gonna be a villainist remembered for all time.

And I like it ‘cause it reminds me of myself. You know, you, you go back in time and instead of trying to be the hero, she’s like, I’m gonna be the greatest villainist ever. ‘cause reincarnated as a, as an a tome villainist. But anyway, so I really like these, which means I get a lot of ads for other [00:45:00] things in this sort of category and on Web tens.

Yeah. The ad that I get the most, so much so that I actually clicked through once.

An ad. I get so much that I actually got it in between filming this episode .

Last night and then immediately going to edit it and go to bed. So within like an hour and a half of filming this episode, that’s how I have a picture of the ad.

Malcolm Collins: It was like, I, this is such a weird setting. I’m gonna see what this is like. Okay. I’m only able to read one chapter of it and I,

I just, it didn’t grab me

The reason I thought it might is it’s world seemed reminiscent of Beast stars, which is one of my favorite animes, .

Because it took the idea of something like Zootopia in saying like. And I think Zootopia, , I hate the way it subverts the actual interesting question that could be asked, which is to say, what if you had a society of a bunch of hominid like creatures that were genetically different and had different needs and capabilities and psychological profiles.

And then Zootopia says, but they aren’t actually different [00:46:00] and none of them are actually a threat to any of the other one. And, it is a conspiracy that any of them could be a threat to any of the other ones. Whereas in B Stars, they say no, , they’re a prey species and they’re a predator species.

And the predator species want to kill and eat the prey species, but they hold that in and they have systemic differences in the way that they see the world and the way they engage with the world. And we will try to stitch together a simulacrum of an equal society in spite of that.

Which thank God isn’t a question that we need to grapple with in our modern society. That different groups may have genetic differences from each other, and saying that our society is equal in spite of that and pretending that it’s equal in spite of that can cause systemic issues.

To get an understanding of just how based and interesting this world is. There’s this scene at the beginning of it where you see a rabbit girl who is clearly one of the protagonists being teased for being a slut, and of course, in any other [00:47:00] anime you’d be like, oh, this is horrible. She’s being teased for being a slut.

But then it’s revealed that the reason why this other subspecies of bunny is so angry at her is because she is. Hitting on one of the males of her subspecies, and they’re an endangered subspecies, and if they keep outbreeding, they’re going to go extinct.

Malcolm Collins: because I was like, this is, I don’t know, it’s gonna be boring and weird, but I’ll, I’ll give you the plot and you’ll immediately understand why you couldn’t do this with women.

Okay. Okay. So it’s a world where, a, it is an answer world, like a furry world. Okay. Okay. And society is divided into praise omnivores and predators where predators sort of hold most positions of power and bully. The other classes omnivores are sort of middling and prey species are seen as like the lower class and are very much forced to take on sort of submissive roles in society.

Okay. Okay. And so, an omnivore dog boy goes to school, but pretends that he’s a wolf so that [00:48:00] he won’t get, like you say, that he can have the higher status and everything like that behind course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He’s, he, he’s the nerd

Simone Collins: pretending to be the jock.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. A a, a, a, a fox boy who’s clearly the, the, like male coded one in this male, male relationship.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He finds out. That this boy is actually an omnivore. So he has this black male information on him. Oh, no. It’s clear that this black male information on that he’s actually submissive and he actually wants to be submissive because he’s just an omnivore you know, obviously taking from like omegaverse strokes.

Right. But the point being is that, you know, in a woman’s story, if it was a woman who was hiding her status and the guy knew the real truth, right. Like, I think a lot of women would feel very uncomfortable about that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. There’s, there’s too much baggage there for sure.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

But somebody who’s trying to hook up with her, like, I don’t wanna mm-hmm. But when men are victimizing men, that’s totally okay. Hot even.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. [00:49:00] No, because I, well, that’s, it’s the dynamic that women find arousing. They just culturally have been programmed to feel immense amounts of guilt and cognitive dissonance if they.

Condone or abide by those things. But we should also touch on, on, again, the, the nails. Actually,

Malcolm Collins: another thing I wanna touch on in this category. Okay. Because I read a lot of these books and a lot of these con I I see the, the types of sort of media that’s really targeted at women. Right.

Okay. Because I’m reading just tons of it. Yeah. When they have a woman as the, the, the lead character, right. Like, because a lot of mine involve romances, right. The woman is almost never objectified. I, you know, I, I will not say almost ever. I would say categorically never. Not one in like the 45 I have read.

Well, and this also shows up so much

Simone Collins: in, in romantic novels, and it’s really annoying because the women and oh, and even, even even novels like the Outlander series, I can’t read them because the women are so. [00:50:00] Can I say Cty? Are you gonna allow me to say cty? Because they’re so cty, they’re so rude and they’re so entitled and they’re so like, I’m not gonna like you.

You’ll just go down on me. And we’re we’ll never have sex ever. And like it, they’re just really rude and mean and dismissive towards them. Yeah. I and I, and I real love interest,

Malcolm Collins: all of the ones I’ve read, the 45 that I have read there has not been a single sexy, it’s so

Simone Collins: annoying. Like, what’s the point?

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know.

I would actually really hate a sex scene. I, I’d be like, I wanna get back to the story. I’m reading this for the well, but

Simone Collins: what’s worse is, I mean, as you know, I have like a very strong aversion to men going down on women. And that’s, that is, that is the sex scene. That hasn’t happened.

Malcolm Collins: Any of the Korean ones, lemme tell you, the Korean women are board with you on this.

You know, they’re like, I guess I have that gene. Yeah. They’re like, I, I do not want, it has not, it has not happened. It has not been suggested to, it has not been talked about. It’s pervasive

Simone Collins: in romantic. I don’t know [00:51:00] what’s up with that. But it’s also pretty pervasive in female oriented. And NSFW stuff online at least in Western audiences.

If you watch our video on how parasites affect human sexuality, and we point out that liking to have guys go down on you is more common in women with specific parasites that can be transmitted by this. All of a sudden this makes sense if Korean women are actually not sleeping around a lot, which they are not.

Korean women barely have any sex, , especially casual sex. , And women in America, especially the white women who are pushing this, are sleeping around a lot. It means that they may have caught these parasites and that’s why they’re reading these books and they are promoting this idea that it’s really normal for guys to go down on girls.

Simone Collins: Yeah. The,

Malcolm Collins: the one scene that you see occasionally, and I’d say that this is the most sexual scene you will see in these. Okay. And it’s in, I’d say like one out of four of them is the scene where the woman has fallen on her back and the man has [00:52:00] fallen on top of her for whatever reason. And Oh, that’s classic anime.

Her skirt is like to hear,

right? Like, it’s fall because she’s wearing one of those big Victorian skirts and you could see of course, part of her leg finally. And you’re like, oh, the, the legacy scene.

Simone Collins: Well, the man accidentally on top of the woman’s scene or vice versa in, in the courtyard, of course.

Mm-hmm. Well let’s, let’s also get back to what this this patron mentioned about why are women so into just having gay friends that, because I’ve seen this happen too, where. Girls, especially as you said, young girls, even to just guy friends in school wish they were gay or say things like, I wish you were gay.

Malcolm Collins: So okay, let’s talk about why women want gay friends and why guys who aren’t stupid want gay friends.

Simone Collins: And like, you do want, no, not not stupid guys who aren’t insecure. I think it has to do with sexual [00:53:00] insecurity

Malcolm Collins: maybe, but, okay. So, first from a guy’s perspective, ‘cause it’s just really easy from a guy’s perspective.

Mm-hmm. My best friends have almost always been gay except for like right now in life. And that’s because my best friend is my wife and I don’t leave my house much. But like throughout high school, your your male best

Simone Collins: friends if, if not family have been.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And this was during the period where, you know, people who know, back in the day I used to sleep around constantly.

Right. And with women, I should probably say with women, yes. Yes. Just sleep around constantly was women. And one of the reasons I was able to do that is because I had. Gay friends, so okay, consider this. You walk up to a group of girls and you’re hanging out with two gay friends. Okay? Now you, a group of three men walked up to three women, except there’s really only one choice for those three women in that group.

Or it works this way. Your gay friends and you go out to a bar or a club and a woman starts to hit on them. They don’t like that, so [00:54:00] they say, Hey, I am ex, but my friend over there is into girls. Is he your type? And then you get handed the girl. Right? That’s

Simone Collins: so funny because experiments also show that’s straight women rate.

Mating related advice from gay men is more trustworthy than advice from straight men or other women because they do not suspect hidden sexual motives or rivalry. And they also suggest women feel that gay male friends value them more beyond their bodies, which boost their self-esteem. And also they feel like gay men are more trustworthy because they’re not sexual competition.

Like there’s all these, you know, I mean we’ve had all these other episodes where we kind of hinted the fact that a lot of female behavior that is, is very crab in the bucket ish, where they’re kind of pulling other women down or encouraging other women to indulge in being overweight or ugly or to just make themselves worse comes from a place of sexual rivalry.

So I had only thought about it from the female perspective, but you’re right from a male [00:55:00] perspective, gay might ga may, sorry. Gay male friends are great for guys too, ‘cause they’re also not sexual rivals. Yes, but, but unicorn friends,

Malcolm Collins: it gets better than that too. So another thing is people say, oh Malcolm, you know, you look gay or you look whatever, right?

Like this is a thing that people say all the time. And I’m like, that makes it even better to have a gay best friend. Because that means that the girl who went to hit on the guy who often looked kind of gay and he says, Hey, are you into guys like that? It’s another guy who looks kind of gay. Yeah.

Sometimes probably is into it. That actually,

Simone Collins: yeah, that that is an underrated. That’s an underrated tactic. Gay guys will occasionally gay because women, like gay men.

Malcolm Collins: Gay guys will occasionally hit on me and then I can pass them to my friend. Right? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you have that, but then you have the secondary dynamic, which is really cool too.

Yeah. Which is to say that, what did I say? Gays? It’s gays. Yes. Gays and women. So, the problem with other women is one, the [00:56:00] thing that you said, it’s been well shown that women are constantly trying to sabotage each other. Mm-hmm. And you even see this as a stereotype of the gay male friend.

The stereotype of a group of female friends is one woman goes out and she goes do I look fat? And all of the women who don’t want her to lose weight and want her to lose in sexual competitions mm-hmm. All go, oh no, you look great. And the gay male’s best friend is like, it’s like now you look fat girl, you look ridiculous right now.

Yeah, yeah. You need to lose a few pounds because, but you actually even see this in the stereotypes, right? Mm-hmm. They, yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re less likely to act in a crab in the bucket dynamic, but it’s more than that. The second point is that women are just generically terrible.

Simone Collins: So not only are they not capable of fluff, not only will they intentionally sabotage you in an act of sexual competition, but there’s more.

There’s more.

Malcolm Collins: No, but if you’re a woman and you can be friends with the guy, but he is not going to have a, a hidden interest in eventually getting you to sleep [00:57:00] with him, Uhhuh that can be a really positive thing like that, that, that has value to you, right? Like Yeah. In terms of gaining access to specific spaces and ideologies you wouldn’t otherwise get access to.

Like this is in part how gays, especially gay men, garner a disproportionate amount of value in society than straight men, which, which you actually see, like gay men often move into an area like right before it gentrifies, for example, right? Like, they, they are a, a look at like top performers in many fields that require networking.

You will often find a disproportionate number of gay men, and that is because gay men have this hidden advantage in networking that straight men do not have. Gosh,

Simone Collins: wow. The power of the gay man.

Malcolm Collins: And, and here I should say, when I say gay men here, I’m talking about same sex attracted men who choose to live a gay lifestyle.

Like I don’t believe there is. I mean, inherently gay thing, it is just some people are born same sex attractive, and there’s many ways you can choose to live in relation,

Simone Collins: right? Yeah. I mean, a closeted gay man [00:58:00] is not gonna have this utility.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Yes, exactly. The, the, the second thing, and I think that you hit on this really well, is, that the, yeah, no, I, I think those are the main reasons. That’s, that’s why women like to, to hang out with them. They do not like to do it because they like to talk about gays hooking up or anything like that. I, I’ve been, because you know, I hung out with gays so much. I’ve been in plenty of the conversations.

Women do not talk with their gay friends about what the gay friends are doing. Not at

Simone Collins: all. And that’s, yeah. So what we’re really talking about, and I think it’s important to highlight this, is these are two very different things. The gay best friend is very different from boys love fictional interest.

They are totally independent. So that’s, I think, quite interesting too that there’s this double interest in gay men from different angles. One, one is a fantasy angle that doesn’t really reflect reality. And one is the very interesting market dynamics that make men valuable to both men and women as friends.

And I’d never really thought through [00:59:00] those logistics and aligned incentives. But they’re there, which is, which is great. Very interesting. It’s funny because when leftist circles discuss the trope of the gay best friends, they talk about it from an exploitative angle that like the, the, the gay best friend is, is tokenized and marginalized and kind of just used as like, oh, just be sassy and tell me things how they are, and I’m gonna just complain to you and, and not listen to you about your inner life at all.

And I, I don’t think that’s how it plays out. Like I don’t, I don’t think these are unit directional relationships, but that that’s how they’re portrayed and they’re not really discussed beyond that. And, and you just presented to me the most compelling and interesting discussion of the gay best friend t trope that I’ve, I’ve ever heard.

So I appreciate that.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you. And yeah. Did you ever, did you ever have your gay friend, token gay friend,

Or just gay friends?

Simone Collins: I had gay colleagues that I still [01:00:00] follow on social media, but I don’t think they liked me very much. And they’re very progressive now, so I’m sure if they see me in the media, they hate me.

I still like them. Yeah. That’s sad. Oh, well. But yeah, no, yeah, no, I, I, yeah. Yeah. In, in high school and in college, there were certainly gay guys that I hung out with and talked with a lot and really liked, I don’t know if they liked me, but I also kind of assume that everyone hates me ‘cause I hate myself.

Well,

Malcolm Collins: and we’ll see what, what my gay friend, so I’m actually about to go to high school reunion. And I need to recheck oh, sorry. I cut out his name. I’ll cut out his name. Recheck with my friend to see what he’s doing, but we had talked about driving up together.

It’s a like four hour drive or whatever, and catching up which will be a lot of fun. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Lovely.

Malcolm Collins: Hearing voice trip. Yeah. [01:01:00] Well, I mean, if, I can’t imagine what if, if he’s bringing his partner with him or something. I, I mean, I know he’s cool with like my politics, but I don’t know about, you know, other people.

So no.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Hopefully it’s okay.

We’ll see. Anyway.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We, this is, this is a lot of fun. Yeah. And that we’ll see. We’ll see. I love you Simone. Good. I love,

Simone Collins: yeah. Enjoyed it. Okay, next we’re gonna do emotional support scooters. Yeah. Yes. Okay.

Do.

Malcolm Collins: by the way. Question. Somebody reached out and said they think I’ve, I’ve not been as nice to you in episodes. I think it’s like when we disagree or talk over each other that they think that I’m being,

Simone Collins: what’s the, what’s the point if there’s not a little debate? A little No.

Malcolm Collins: Isn’t that like normal in marriages? I don’t know.

Simone Collins: What if we, but I think being mean is when there’s like an ad [01:02:00] hominin attack. You haven’t. I don’t think you’ve ever made one on a podcast ever, so why would you? Like we talk over each other, but that’s ‘cause we get excited, we, we ideas. But like there’s also

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. We have a lot of, a lot of, as as really annoying child psychologists say, we have a lot of big feelings. We have

Malcolm Collins: a lot of big feelings right now, Simone.

Simone Collins: Big feelings.

Malcolm Collins: And my big feeling is, is I have some theories. And you have some theories. Yeah. And we both wanna tell each other the theories.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

And would our conversations be, be interesting if we agreed on everything? I mean, what are they looking for? I guess a lot of the podcasts, no, I mean blocked and reported, for example, which is a very popular podcast. They disagree. But then a lot of leftist podcasts I listen to, they only agree and tell about them.

Memetically, ganging up on, on the enemy, talking about how perfect or disgusting someone is. Love you. Yeah. I don’t know. [01:03:00] You’re perfect and I love you.

Maybe turn it up a tiny bit.

Malcolm Collins: How am I gonna look dark and mysterious and like a sexy vampire?

Simone Collins: That’s true. Well, this, this highlights the paleness and the fact that you never go outside during the day, which I think is more vampiric.

So for people who don’t

Malcolm Collins: know, Joe Rogan’s show called me a Vampire. That that was the conspiracy. So I am, they didn’t exactly, they said, well, like, like vampires or something like that. But I’m going with it. I’m going with it. That’s the, the, the, that I’m, that I’m from a, a family of vampires is what they said.

Simone Collins: The guest said that what Barnabas Collins from the Dark Shadow Series was based on The Collins family is in York Collins family.

Malcolm Collins: So based on me, vampires are based on me not the other way around. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Somebody looked at my family and was like, vampires.

Simone Collins: Vampires. Definitely.

Malcolm Collins: I

Simone Collins: Did you see a trending topic that I sent you on X by the way, that anti-ice protest turned inspiring.

More romance [01:04:00] meme book covers and like ai, the girls

Malcolm Collins: are thirsting after ice agents and they’re, yeah.

Simone Collins: And the, the book covers that people are making on X are hilarious. You, you’ve got to click through to the link that I sent. Okay. Okay. There’s, the books have covers like a song of fire and ice, and there’s a, a woman with blue hair kissing an ice agent and she’s wearing a bright red dress.

There’s another book cover that reads Detained by Desire, and there’s a woman staring in an i, a masked ice agent from the window of her crappy looking car. It

Malcolm Collins: is. Utterly delightful. Hold on. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll open this. I’ll see, I’ll see if these are accurate.

Simone Collins: There’s another, another book with the title Victimized at the protest.

There’s a, an ice agent detaining, A woman holding an abolished ice sign. Except,

Malcolm Collins: wait, wait, so he’s an ice au Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, there

Simone Collins: the other, there are ice mitas. In some ways, yeah. And people are going all that with [01:05:00] mean desire. But what good, and these are delightful and I would read them, but what actually was trending?

Kind of, I think maybe the book covers were being made in response to this, but people noticed on some chat sites that Women’s Ice agent role play was trending. You know, women fantasizing about,

Malcolm Collins: oh, I like this quote here. A Handmaid’s Tale is fetish material, by the way. See our episode on that If you don’t believe that it is.

Yeah. Pretending it’s a political critique is like pretending 50 shades of gray is about the excess influence of the billionaire class.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, oh, I, I love this. Christians, we should stop abortion feminists. I want you to grate me Christians. What feminists. You want to imprison me and put me in a costume and I have high status men f me and impregnate me Christians.

What Feminist panting they’re wives will hold my wrist while he dries themselves [01:06:00] deep into my fertile God.

Simone Collins: But really now there’s this rising conspiracy theory at the back of my mind that all female dominant, pro dominated protests are just women playing out fetishes. Now they’re going to these ice.

Ice protests, antagonizing men saying, arrest me. Do it. I just saw some footage when I was watching another Aspen Gold stream on, on that was posted on YouTube later, where at one point it seemed like ice agents were pouring water on men. Women who were protesting may be blocking their way, like water bottle, emptying water bottles onto their faces, and the women were saying more water as this kind of resistance protest or something.

But now that I look at it from like a, a fetish perspective, I don’t know, man. What if women are just, what if women are using this as a way to exercise their resistance? [01:07:00] Fetishes and they’re, I’m being dominated by strong man in a uniform and a mask. It’s kind of sexy. I I get it. You know, like I could see it.

No, I,

Malcolm Collins: I I Ice role play. You need to, that’s, that’s gonna be the next thing. Yeah.

Simone Collins: You gotta, I,

Malcolm Collins: it’s, if I look on Amazon, am I

Simone Collins: gonna find ice costumes and that they have need to ice one star days? We need

Malcolm Collins: ai. Well,

Simone Collins: yeah. Today I made I made one where you’re Candace Owens, but all the conspiracy theories are true.

I made you wake up as Kaya right before the Kaya Please shock incident. And you have to figure out what you’re gonna do with your life. I made one where you are Charlie and you have to navigate the dystopian UK government. Perhaps saving Amelia. I don’t know. We’ll find out. I’m doing it. I’m having fun with them.

You know, we should, we should do an ice. I protest romance and NSFW. [01:08:00] It’s, it’s gonna be perfect. But yeah, I, it, it’s fun building out the, the scenarios and making them like that. I, I hope people enjoy the, the Candace Owens conspiracy theories a real one. I just started playing that after making it. I was like, whoa.

Because I put in in, in, in reality fabricator, when you make a scenario, you’re able to make the public summary and starting point for a game or an AI scenario or like narrative, but you’re also able to put in stuff that only the AI can see. And so it’s really helpful when you wanna do things like Candace Owens, but all the conspiracy theories are real.

You just put in a detailed profile of Candace Owens and then a detailed summary of all of her conspiracy theories so that they thread into the narrative of. The game itself. And I find that actually really interesting because when I listen to Candace Owens talk, I find myself thinking, [01:09:00] how, how does she, how does this work?

How does it work with the Egyptian planes and the Jews and all these things? How do they fit together? How can this world be cohesive? And, and, and yeah, some people like her, I’m like, her brain is just cooked.

Malcolm Collins: It’s like

Simone Collins: she, well, no, but with reality fabricator, you can, through her eyes, play out the scenario and try to understand how things feel from her perspective.

And, and I, I didn’t realize that reality faab, reality fabricator would be so useful for me. Help

Malcolm Collins: me empathize with Candace Owen. Yeah. To be like, okay,

Simone Collins: let’s just, let’s just take her word for it. Okay. All of the conspiracy theories are real. And, and I can see what she says. She has. What am I seeing? What am I looking at?

What do I do? And so I didn’t realize that AI chatbots could also really help you build empathy or at least try to see something from someone’s perspective. But I’m very excited to create the NSFW Ice Agent Romance and a [01:10:00] scenario. It, it will hopefully rank well, but nothing will ever come close to, and I still have to play it through.

There’s this one NSFW scenario that someone created on our fab called all the check boxes because Malcolm created this giant help you create your own narrative tool where you can check all the boxes or that you want for either an a, a safer work adventure scenario or a character that you chat with or a, a raunchy scenario. And so it includes all, like any fetish you could possibly imagine dominance versus submission roles tropes, et cetera. And someone just checked every single box just to see what would happen. I really wanna figure out. It’s dominant and it’s submissive. It’s, it’s BDSM and it’s, it’s, it’s gentle.

It’s, I don’t know. I, I wanna, I need to, I need to see what it’s like. Anyway we will, we will get to the show ‘cause I’m sorry, but we just, we have to talk [01:11:00] sometimes. And this is our time. All right.

Okay. You good? Oh, oh, we had a situation. Sorry. There is, there’s, wow. What, what did you do? You good buddy? Let’s see what’s going. The double chin’s kinda okay. Okay.

Okay.

Alright.

Sorry. He woke up at three 30 and was like, let’s do it. We didn’t go back to sleep after that.

Speaker 3: Come down here to get people dressed. What is happening over here? What are you doing? Andy taught me, so his funny, his birthday party. How did Indy get out of her bed? Tim did it. Octavian? Yeah. Did you help Indy get out of her bed? Be nice.[01:12:00]

Speaker 4: They are so cute.

Drove us marching around. Had Indy gotten out of her, her cage? Yeah, they got her out in, got your, so they were marching around and doing what? They were just marching around yelling.

Speaker 6: Toasty. Andy wants to play toasty. Come on. Alright girl. Are you being silly, but I just having, what are you doing, Titan?