Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

The mainstream media is dying — and almost nobody is actually reading it anymore.

In this episode, Malcolm & Simone Collins break down the shocking reality behind the Washington Post laying off a third of its staff, why legacy media has become irrelevant, and how a new decentralized information ecosystem (YouTubers, citizen journalists, Substack, and AI synthesis) is rapidly replacing it.

Topics covered:

* Why the Washington Post’s 13–14 person climate team was mostly cut

* How our small channel has more real influence than dozens of NYT journalists

* The hidden truth about newspaper readership and subscription signaling

* The new media pyramid: original research → synthesis → commentary

* Why citizen journalism is outperforming legacy war reporting

* AI’s biggest emerging threat to information quality

* How we’re returning to real gumshoe reporting in the cyber age

If you want to understand where news is actually going in 2026 and beyond, this episode is essential.

Watch until the end for our thoughts on AI harmonic patterns and the coming verification crisis.

Drop a comment: Do you still read any legacy media outlets? Which ones?

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we’re gonna be talking about the death of Legacy Media.

Recently, the big story in the news tied to this right now is that the Washington Post laid off a third of their staff

Simone Collins: and they’d be mad.

Malcolm Collins: You were just complaining to me, you’re like, oh my God. I do not understand. When you see people protest like. These people were not generating value, they were not generating money anymore.

The number that had been going around that I think is hilarious is they had 13 to 14 journalists as part of their climate team.

Simone Collins: Just, just to cover climate change.

Malcolm Collins: And they let, I think all of them go,

Simone Collins: no, I think they kept one or two. One

Malcolm Collins: or two to like,

Simone Collins: which is one or two too many. You could have honestly, like anyone covering economics or politics or really any, I mean, climate change is one of those subjects that really only.

Has context and importance in relation to another field like science, [00:01:00] like, ecosystems, like food, like any, anything on its own. It doesn’t matter. It only matters in the context of something else. So you don’t need a journalist for that. I can’t believe they ha How did they even end up with that mini, I mean, the way that Aspen Gold was talking about it was that like you just get one and they just hire more and more, like they just want more of themselves and they grow like a cancer.

Malcolm Collins: No, it’s,

Simone Collins: it

Malcolm Collins: is just like a cancer. I mean, wokes and Wokes topics aren’t like a cancer within an organization. Yeah. And they spread from the, the, the start point. And it is you have to cut out the entire cancer. That’s the only way to, to keep the organization alive.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if you’re not willing to, and that’s the thing with giant bureaucracies, it becomes harder and harder and harder to do that.

So giant bureaucracies perform less and less well. Mm-hmm. Which is why new companies are able to bubble up and do. New and cool things like our fab ai creating the best AI chat bots around. And they really are, we’re gonna start advertising. Like

Simone Collins: actually yes.

Malcolm Collins: Like actually, yeah, I’ve used the other bots, they’re not as good.

And, and it’s just [00:02:00] because we’re using the top of the line models really, and everybody else tries to do some proprietary nonsense. But anyway, to keep going here if you get an idea, because I, I do not think people realize contrasted wiz, because what we’re gonna be talking about in today’s episode is.

The phenomenon of media dying, but also the phenomenon of what’s replacing it, how you can gather information today, how people will gather information in the future. ‘cause a lot of people are like, well, when the media’s gone, how is information parsed? How do you get stories? How do you know what’s happening in the world?

Mm-hmm. And I mean, the answer is obvious now. People are getting it from their information circles. You know, you were just talking about how I was learning about what happened to the Washington Post by watching as asthma gold. Don’t you all want a wife like that who genuinely is just like, what does, as asthma gold have to say?

Say, yeah, God. I think a lot of guys are like, yeah, I want a wife who’s addicted to o asthma gold. But anyway I do not think people understand just how few people actually read [00:03:00] even the largest of media organizations. And we have an older episode where we go into the numbers on this. And in that episode, even when the channel was much smaller I was pointing out that if you look at, like, if you divide the show’s viewership by two, because there’s two of us working on it.

Each of us is worth, I think it was seven full-time staff at the New York Times when you con we’re contrasting our viewership numbers. Was the average viewership numbers of the New York Times? Oh

Simone Collins: no.

Malcolm Collins: In terms of, yeah, it was bad. And I can try to find those numbers. I’ll add it in post here to give good idea of just how bad it was.

So the average American when they click through to a newspaper

is on that link for 1.

5 minutes actually a little less than that. So I’m inflating the numbers a bit. Okay. If you look at the New York Times,

the New York Times gets around 385. 7 million clicks per month. That comes down to around 9, 642, 000 K hours now, [00:04:00] consider that they have 1, 700 journalists working there, and there are two of us.

That means

the number of people watching our content is equivalent for each one of us to 44 New York Times journalists. We have the same influence on the public as 44 New York Times journalist for each of us individually. 22 for the show in general, do you have any idea how much 44 people is?

That’s like more people than could fit in our entire house. And we are not a particularly large YouTube channel either.

Malcolm Collins: So

Simone Collins: bad.

Malcolm Collins: Bad. But to give you an idea, when you’re talking about New York Times pieces, because I’ll go through the major. Things because I think a lot of people, they’ll look at the total viewership on these platforms. Yeah. And they get confused because what they’re confusing is a few viral pieces versus how many people are reading the average piece.

Right. How many [00:05:00] clickthroughs does the average piece get? Not the long tail piece. Right. So if you’re looking these days and you, and you do the math on this should I explain how. Views based on I’ll just, okay. Views based on 1.6 billion monthly page views, 7,000 articles, media media and adjusted full reads at 25 to 35% rate higher for long form EG 10 K views at or to 25% equals 2.5 k Engagement time is 30 to 45 seconds, which supports this.

And with the New York Times. The way that we did that, by the way, is, is the average site time. It’s, I think 30 to 45 seconds, as I said, and then you’re looking at 1.6. Billion monthly page views. And so you’re like, okay, so how, what does that translate to in watch time versus what is our watch time?

Simone Collins: Sure. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which generally, like when we’re humming along, right now, I think we’re at around like 120,000, 130,000 hours a month.

Simone Collins: Oh, that’s awesome. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: And, and our norm when we get to like our peak, because we’ve hit this number a few different times, has been around 150,000. Yeah. We’ve gotten to around [00:06:00] 200,000 at points.

So we’ll see if we can get to a norm of over 200,000 this year. But anyway. If you’re looking at the estimated medium viewers per story in the New York Times, you’re looking at 10,000 to 25,000.

Simone Collins: But the amount of money that goes into each articles.

Malcolm Collins: Is enormous. What? So you’re going to understand why this doesn’t make sense anymore.

And the estimated number of people who read an average New York Times story to the end of the story is around 2,500 to 8,700.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Not a lot. So the average New York Times story is getting about the engagement as an average video on this channel.

Simone Collins: Yes. With one small counterpoint. Which is, and I think this is a, a difference with.

Old media that’s going to keep it alive a little bit longer than these dismal numbers would suggest. Yeah. Which is that a lot of people, and keep in mind in New York Times doesn’t make money based on views. It makes money based on subscriptions. [00:07:00] Mm-hmm. And people often get subscriptions to publications they do not read.

I mean, obviously a lot of people do it out of. Inertia or it’s a, an institution or a publication or a doctor’s office or whatever, right? And they just get it because they’ve always got it and they always will get it. And so it’s gonna take a generation for that to end. Or you know, more institutional shakeups for an auditing team to be like, wait, why are you paying for this when no one’s using it?

You know, more doge kind of stuff. ‘cause that happened a lot when Doge people were like, wait, no one has ever used this software. Ever. Why are we paying for it? But then there’s also the element that people buy. Like I think the New Yorkers a better example of this. They buy a subscription to it, so it sits in their house, and when people come over, they’re like, oh.

You read The New Yorker no one reads the New Yorker. You know what I mean? Like five people read the New Yorker. But they, they have those just as a signaling thing. Most [00:08:00] people who received, and I remember when I was a kid. My family had a subscription to the San Francisco Chronicle. ‘cause it was the nearest big newspaper.

We paid for it. We had it delivered daily for a while. And everyone in our household would read at most one article. We didn’t get it. Because we wanted to read all the articles like you, it’s, it’s not really a per article view kind of thing. It’s a, I’m the kind of person who reads the newspaper every day, and it’s very much a social signaling and more importantly a self signaling thing.

We talk about different models of friendship like you have. Different types of friends. Some people are friends that are more mercenary. We love them the best. They’re called utility friends in our household. They’re friends that you keep around. Like if, if you’re a kid, it’s ‘cause they have the best video game console.

If you’re an adult, it’s ‘cause they have the best social setter because, you know, they’re. They, they host the best parties or they’re entertaining. But then there are also character reinforcing [00:09:00] friends. And that’s because, you know, you are a professional woman on the upswing. You need to have your token gay friend and your girls that you lunch with or you know, like your, like this kind of guy.

And so you need, like the guys you watch sports with, like your, the, the drama of your life is not complete without the, this set of characters supporting characters and a New York Times subscription. Is often a very important prop based on a character that you’re trying to fulfill. Now, we wouldn’t say that people who are age agentic do this kind of thing.

You know that they live in a much more pragmatic way, but most people are, what you might describe as NPCs. They’re not actually thinking in terms of. What is going to fulfill that, which I believe has inherent value in their world. They’re more like, I’m this kind of person. What would this kind of person do?

And there are lots of people who are like, well, I’m this kind of person and this kind of person gets the New York Times. And so that’s probably what’s keeping this [00:10:00] publication alive a lot longer. And why? I would just wanna add that annotation to your note about the views that each article gets. Does that make sense?

That was really long-winded, but I, I think it’s important. Well, no, I think

Malcolm Collins: that you’re, you’re, you are absolutely right about that. And I think that you also, there’s a lot of people who get the New York Times for just the puzzles to keep that in mind as well.

Simone Collins: Oh my God, no, this is actually true. So I like, I’ve mentioned this on a, another podcast recently, so sorry, but like for three months, every morning I looked at the top Google Trends, results.

And often the, the result was like, oh my God, America, are you okay, bro? Because it was like always like on a Saturday morning or Friday night, it was like accident, injury, lawyer and stuff, like really bad trending searches. But very, very commonly it was like New York Times crossword puzzle hints and like wordle hints.

And so you’re 100% right about that. Yeah. The games. That’s so sad. Can you imagine the [00:11:00] pessimism you have to grow is the CTO of the New York Times, or like the analytics experts who like actually know what people look at.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, if, if we’re looking at hours sorry, if we’re looking at the, the next big one, right?

Because I, I just started with the New York Times ‘cause that’s one of the top ones here, right? Yeah. You’re looking at something like, like the Washington Post that had to lay off everyone. On an average article, they’re only getting 3000 to 10,000 views. And they’re only getting about 600. People to 3000 people reading to the end of our article with cnn, oh gosh.

For your average post it’s 5,000 to 15,000 was only 750 to 3,700 reading to the end of an article.

Simone Collins: This also shows what a huge scam PR is because there are, and like even large corporations will pay huge amounts of money. Oh God. Yeah. Like for them an, an article in the New York Times, it’s this big get and they think it’s gonna lead to conversions or an ROI of some sort.

They don’t realize that no one is gonna read that. No one’s gonna learn about [00:12:00] them through this. No one,

Malcolm Collins: nobody cares,

Simone Collins: cares.

I really wanna highlight what Simon is saying here because this is always a big problem for me when I’m talking to people and be like, oh, I’ll do a business and then the media will talk about it and then everyone will use it. And I’m like, even if you get a piece in the New York Times, you’re looking at , ,

In terms of reading that piece until the point that they read your company’s name, I.

you know, 8,000 impressions, 5,000 impressions.

, That is not a lot of impressions.

And then even if they get there, what ion of them are gonna click over? What? Uh, you know, maybe 10%, 5%. So you’re talking about hundreds of clicks over to your product. This is for the New York Times, the best website you could get.

Okay. You, you could buy that with like. A few hundred dollars on, , at Google Ads, right? , It is just not that relevant. You need the piece to go viral, and then you need to ask, well, why is the piece on you going to go viral? Right? But it’s more than that.

It’s also, when it comes to negative media, when people freak out about negative media about [00:13:00] them, it hasn’t gone viral. Cannot help but roll my eyes. I’m like, nobody cares. Nobody cares. That X magazine or X thing wrote some mean piece on you. It is irrelevant unless it gets picked up by the algorithm and comes up when people search your name and that, and that can be relevant.

But in general, , what the news media does is just not very important.

Malcolm Collins: We had an article about us last week in the New York Times. Did anyone hear, or at least that that name checked us? Did anyone here know that? No. Nobody. F*****g nobody. Because

Simone Collins: nobody care.

No

Malcolm Collins: one friends were like, Hey, you’re in the New York Times again. Yeah. ‘cause nobody cares. No one knew. Literally because I, I mean, the article was on JD Vance having an additional kid, which is just not something you’re gonna click through on because who cares? We know he’s having additional kids. Yeah.

They just felt they needed to have a perfunctory article on He had a kid. What do the ISTs think? And they didn’t use my one, it would’ve gone viral if they had used my quote about us not wanting to send progressive women to Mar-a-Lago breeding pits. But no, they [00:14:00] just wanted me to say some nice things.

So they took my nice quotes, which was so sad, so sad, so

Simone Collins: sad.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway,

Simone Collins: that’s our version of a hit piece. How dare they? I’m outraged. How could they, they’re destroying my character, my reputation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But the reason why it’s so important is, you know, I can be for arrogance reasons, comparing you know, these numbers to something on our you know, YouTube channel.

But keep in mind, people who get their news from our YouTube channel are actually getting their news from a CA cluster of channels, right? And many of them are bigger than our channel. So if you compare the average numbers of, let’s say a Fox News article, which is 5,000 to 12,000 with reading it to the end, 800 to 3,600 and you compare that to an average kirsha piece or an average leaflet piece.

Yeah. Or an average nuts, or you really wanna blow it out like, I’m using Kesha. ‘cause I think people who watch kyia and leaflets think of them as like niche content producers. [00:15:00] Right. Like, or, or VTV Romanian, whatever.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: He an average one of his pieces ‘cause he’s around us in size. I think a lot of people who are into these sorts of channels do not realize, you think you are watching some niche thing, but you’re actually part of a constellation of news sources that is significantly larger in terms of its reach than.

The vast majority, like really only edged out by like the New York Times specifically and the bbc. Yeah. In terms of its actual reach. And then if you are in the Asma Gold slash Nux, no Constellation, which is like bigger, like I’ll put here like, Sargon of a Cod and Asma Gold and Tim Pool and stuff like that.

And these are videos that are regularly getting on daily videos mm-hmm. Of millions of youth.

Simone Collins: And you know, it’s not because people are trying to signal something to themselves. People don’t necessarily do themselves favors by like thinking of themselves as like, oh yes. I’m so proud of myself for being the person who has [00:16:00] a.

Cartoon character. Tell me about the news every time.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. I actually do think it’s about self signaling.

Simone Collins: Really?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So as the gold, I think people watch ASME gold to signal that they know what the averaged like informed bro think. I love that. Like, I

Simone Collins: just think he’s genuinely entertaining.

I, I, yeah. I,

Malcolm Collins: you know, he’s, he’s entertaining, but he’s not like an entertainer in the same way that, n is really more of an entertainer, right? Like, oh, well,

Simone Collins: well Knucks has affectations, if that’s what you mean. But like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Asma Gold is what his, his, the core to his stick is that you feel like you are getting the opinion of your average of based

Simone Collins: centris.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, your average American male who plays video games and is interested in politics and hangs out online. Mm-hmm. And he does a very good job of that. I mean, I think he does a good job of that because that’s exactly what he’s delivering. Mm-hmm. He has not, he has not changed his [00:17:00] lifestyle. You know, he is, he still perceives the world the way he did when he started.

And I, you know, that’s why he’s, he is gotten big. Whereas with other content creators like Leaflet, I think a lot of people watch leaflet. Because leaflet creates, like, okay, so the reason that people watch leaflet differs from the reason people watch like Keisha. Mm-hmm. So with leaflet, I think that she is the king queen of parasocial bonds.

You watch leaflet because you like, genuinely are like, oh, what a sweet person. Like I’m really. What, wondering what this, this, this sweet, but based person thinks. Right.

Simone Collins: Well, and badass. Yeah. She’s

Malcolm Collins: all these than she’s Yeah, she’s, she’s, she’s got the full, she’s very much playing the host club game.

Right. Like, not

Simone Collins: exploit,

Malcolm Collins: not exploitative, but, but it’s, it’s, it’s, she’s very good at building a pair of social bonds.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: If you look at Keisha right, another v YouTuber I think. The, the reason people go to Kirsha is not like with Leaflet. When I first stopped and watched her channel, I was like, wait is an anime avatar?

Which is cute, but based, [00:18:00] like, that’s fun. I wanna, I wanna see like what a based anime person thinks, right? Like, with Kirsha you really only watch her stuff for the, just that she does very good original research. That is what she’s really good at. And I, I think the VT tubing shtick is really ancillary to that.

And frankly, I, I, I think she should invest in a better model. Because her model’s a little 1990s at this point. I mean, she’s been doing this for a long time. A lot of people will freak out when you update your model, I guess. But because, you know, people get attached to one model or whatever, but yeah.

It’s it’s, it’s, it’s clearly a different era of technology when contrasted with like leaflets model.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I do love how more recently developed V YouTuber models can pick up on even subtle facial expressions. It’s delightful.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, it’s wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. You can throw a lot of really fun stuff around that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But Keisha’s model, the, sorry, the reason the, the Keisha’s whole thing the reason I’m mentioning this is the way the new information economy works is really fascinating to [00:19:00] me because I actually think it’s superior to news when people are like, what happens when news is gone?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: How will I know what’s true and what’s not true, and what’s happening in the world and what’s not happening in the world? Mm-hmm. And my response to you is, you, you generally, like if you’re part of the informational ecosystem in which we exist. You likely have a better understanding of current geopolitics than if you are watching the news.

Because the news just for whatever reason, chooses not to focus on a lot of really important stuff. And the reason why I, I mentioned it’s, it’s, it’s a bizarre new ecosystem. It because it doesn’t function okay, it actually functions a lot the way the news used to, but is more transparent about it.

So I’ll explain what I mean by this. R Remember how I said Kirsha is really good with original research, right? Yeah. You have a few people on this pyramid of content producers. Mm-hmm. Who are at the bottom. Uh uh, this would be channels like hours. Often [00:20:00] kirsha often. What’s another one that, that the one that Asma gold is like his go-to one to cover. Oh,

Simone Collins: the Asian dude.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Asian dude

Malcolm Collins: In my head, his channel’s name is something like default voice, but when I search it, I can’t find it.

Simone Collins: Or coffee zilla. ‘cause he sometimes he got

I can’t remember. But he also does a lot of coffee zilla stuff and some other YouTubers. So, yeah, like they either, yeah, they, they, there’s this go-to group of people who do original.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s

Simone Collins: video based research. Original journalism.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Research to discover new topics and then and information on those topics or expand,

There is actually a category of channels below us or somebody like default voice, , that does the actual on the ground fact finding. But I didn’t think of it when I was thinking about the funnel because almost nobody watches these channels. So like if I’m trying to understand like how drones are being used in the Ukraine, I might find like five hours of videos by some drone artist that like 400 people have watched.

And then I synthesize all of the content from [00:21:00] there, and then that becomes our content. And it’s the same as him when he’s finding like X the, you know, thing with BLM where they’ve burned down X monument or something like that. He’s not doing the on the ground stuff. He’s going through , whatever, auto compiled every single tweet about X thing.

And then trying to find out what’s true and what can be presented to you guys in an entertaining way.

like if we are trying to do something in our channel, we can’t just say. Washington Post laid off 30% of its staff. We need to have some wider thesis about the informational ecosystem, where it’s going, et cetera, that introduces either new ideas or new patterns or new facts.

Like in our recent Epstein piece, right? The one that we would’ve released yesterday, which I was surprised, didn’t do as well we found evidence that he likely did. May still be alive that no one else had found yet. Like I can’t just do a compilation on all the stuff that everyone else is already talking about in our informational ecosystem, because I [00:22:00] don’t feel like that’s what our channel is for.

Right? But then there’s that whole layer on top of us, right? Which includes individuals like leaflet and asthma, gold and stuff like that, who go over. Other original research channels, videos and provide commentary on that. Mm-hmm. And people can say, well, that’s not the way news used to work. And it’s like, no, it’s exactly the way news used to work.

You had on the ground field reporters, on the ground field researchers they would find information that wasn’t being covered or that wasn’t well known. And then you would have a room full of. Pundits or talking heads that would all discuss that at like a round table or something like that. Right.

And, and that’s what we are seeing with this other layer of the informational ecosystem.

Simone Collins: I would also say to build on your, we’re coming full circle element of it. Yeah. You’re describing how. YouTubers and news commentators, including our channel, but especially a lot of the v YouTubers we love, and Aspen Gold, et cetera.

Even Hasan as well, like he, he falls into this [00:23:00] category that they are a lot like broadcast newsers news, news people, journalists that have been on tv. The newspapers. And magazines are now returning to their original format. The original magazine was a very limited circulation publication that was supported by a small collection of patrons who would pay one or more people to put together very specific information about a domain.

And the where you’re really seeing the return to this is, is with substack. And people’s paid subs that are on very specific things. And I, I think that it’s really interesting to see this full circle return, that now people are going back to paying for information that is very specific and, and from a trusted, very diligent source.

And, and going back to these more organic [00:24:00] models, there was just too much bureaucratic drift. And you can really also see how bureaucratic bloat and mission drift just lead to this inevitable refreshing of organizational formats, which is something you talk about as inability. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it is really interesting.

And, and, and the on substack you get a lot more original research on things like us. You get a

Simone Collins: lot more research. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And so, I am very excited. I, well, so now let’s talk about the quality of the research we have in the two locations.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And like, why I actually think that this is a, a, a pretty good system.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The first is, is that the media system and, and the, this is a reason why. It’s, it’s losing so hard, or one of the big reasons why is it had become institutionally captured. Mm-hmm. By sort of the, you know, as, as McGold was like, you let in a few people and then they start multiplying and they start hiring other people that have these same opinions and they will attack you or anyone at the organization who doesn’t share these opinions and try to get you fired.

And you didn’t see this in the opposite direction. Conservatives weren’t trying to get any progressive in [00:25:00] an organization fired but progressives routinely, they were like, well, it’s this conservative opinion you’re not allowed to have. This is the one above the fold. Like, you know, right now in the v YouTuber space, there’s this big thing where they’re trying to get somebody canceled.

But it wasn’t V YouTuber, it’s just, just like streamer. Because she wouldn’t denounce ice. She was just like, look, you, you don’t need to come to see me to get your opinions on this stuff, right? Like, that’s not why I’m not educated in this. And you shouldn’t be taking opinion.

And people flip the lid because they do not want anyone in their space who’s not actively promoting their agenda, right? And that is how entire spaces turn bias. And then people leave those spaces because it’s not useful anymore. Like the news. Isn’t useful if it’s just telling you the, the party ideology.

Simone Collins: I thought it was ou who got in trouble for that? Who was sexually assaulted at Twitch Con or whatever.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, and she was the one who had that mischief as a partner. And they had that, was that, was that

Simone Collins: emer? Oh God, yeah. She’s what, a what, a 12 month period? Well, yeah. What

Malcolm Collins: a cycle for her, right?

She’s

Simone Collins: been through it. Yeah. [00:26:00] Give her a break, guys. Aw, free em ru

Malcolm Collins: Gotta get emro on the channel. That’d be fun.

Simone Collins: She’s cool.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Well, she, no, she couldn’t come on if she’s getting attacked just for not denouncing her friendship with M Gold. God imagine, imagine if she was on Base camp, people would not like that.

Mm-hmm. It’s funny, I was reading one of the comments on the base camp subreddit, which is now doing terribly well, still doing better than most like Jordan Peterson subreddit or something. But it’s, it’s not at its peak, which used to be one of the largest conservative subreddits because got shadow banned, but.

It still serves as function. It’s still fun. So I was reading the comments on it and somebody was like, oh my God, like I saw this comment and I was like, it’s so sad that this comment won’t be here for long. ‘cause it’s hilarious. And then they go, and then I check the subreddit name. Thank God sub exists.

Simone Collins: Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean we’re, because we’re a shadow brand now, I don’t even mod as heavily. ‘cause I’m like, I don’t freaking, let’s see, you know, the, the random sensitive [00:27:00] people aren’t gonna see this anymore.

Simone Collins: Also, I doff my cap to those who have taken on modding roles. Thank you so much for helping.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I’m sorry. It is a thankless job. People just get mad. They’re like, why did you take me down? It’s like, well, because you said you were gonna kill somebody. Like,

Simone Collins: what did you expect?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Be, be more creative. You know, noticing, noticing, you know, you can say things like that, you know, you don’t need to say the full thing.

Like what we do on this channel I actually think we’re pretty good at, at curing the line, skirting the line of what we’re allowed to say. But the point here being. Is let’s, let’s not talk about the, yeah. The quality of this. So one is you, a lot of people realize they were just reading the party line and there wasn’t actually that much independent, new news reporting happening from the major news outlets.

Simone Collins: Well, I think there was also a realization around 10 years ago, so this has been going for a long time. The journalists were just recycling other journalists’ posts and not actually doing diligence. And we [00:28:00] also met journalists who. We’re doing really well in their publications and could basically get whatever job they wanted.

And we’re like, oh, why, why, why are you doing so well? And they’re like, oh. So I like actually call people basically, they actually just do original reporting and no one else does. Everyone else just like Googles it and then sort of plagiarizes, but with sufficient word changing that they don’t get caught for it.

Other people’s work. Yeah. And I think that that’s an underrated element of this as well.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, with that in mind the, the, the plagiarizing and everything like that yeah. So, consider war reporting or something like that, because that’s an area where people can be like, well, you absolutely need journalists for foreign correspondent reporting.

Right? For war reporting for what’s happening in government reporting. And what we’ve learned, I think since journalism has, has basically died, is actually you don’t need that. Hmm. If you want to get an understanding of what’s going on right now. Ukraine, you’re going to get a [00:29:00] much better understanding if you follow like the channels that are specialized in this on both sides.

Mm-hmm. Then you would’ve ever had any idea of what was going on in, say, Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Mm-hmm. You simply did not really know what was going on. You might have known about major encounters or something like that. Which you wouldn’t have had a good grip of who’s winning, who’s losing, why they’re winning, why they’re losing much less nuanced breakdowns of specific encounters, how equipment is being used, how equipment is being deployed, how tactics are changing.

Simone Collins: So just the, the citizen journalism reporting on weaponry on the war in Ukraine alone is so God tier, I can’t even get over it. Like, and multiple people who listen to this. Podcast have on multiple occasions, sent us links to these amazing channels. Just on the drones. Just on the drones.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: It’s, it’s incredible.

It’s so cool.

Malcolm Collins: And so people are like, well, how, how does this end up happening in a way where you can get information [00:30:00] that is largely unbiased? And this is, this is how it happens. First you need to understand that all information has a bias, whether it’s from a newspaper, from a YouTuber, or whatever.

You find the unbiased truths through attempts at triangulation from biased media sources. We, for the people who watch us. Openly have a bias on almost everything I discussed because I want people to know that in their triangulation of what is actually true when they are looking at our channel.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Because it is so, it’s, it’s so much more insidious and, and less honest to say. We are the unbiased truth. And that is not true. No, everyone has an agenda.

Malcolm Collins: Everyone’s got an agenda. So, you, and then on top of the bias sources, so you’re gonna have some sources that are like more pro Ukraine, you’re gonna have some sources that are more pro Russia and they’ll try to spin the information in both directions.

But you can typically overlap those sources and say, oh, here’s what they [00:31:00] agree on. So this is almost certainly true. Like they both agree a conflict happened here. Yeah. They both agree that like this many people died at a high end and this many people died at a low end. Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They both agree that, you know, these tactics were important, but then you have the people who are just autistic nerds, which is another great source of information.

Yes. Filter through people like us. Sorry, when we’re doing our video on something like drone warfare or something like that we are before doing that video, going through a bunch of videos by drone nerds. And I trust these individuals because sometimes it can be very clear that they or military nerds.

The, the military, a lot of military nerds just actually like, don’t have a bias. They’re just like effing nerdy about military equipment. Yes. And want to understand how it’s being used, how it’s being deployed. And so we then go and, and how do they get that information? They, they go artists out, right?

Like they go they look for. Information on down drones [00:32:00] they look for to try to understand how they’re being made, how they’re being deployed. They look for chatter from people who are actually in the military on deployment recently, undeployed, stuff like that.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And they put together huge amounts of information on that.

Then you have people like us who come in and say like I’ll do two things. I will, one, read the original sources, but then two I’ll take when I can get a ton of sources on something and then dump all those sources into AI and get the AI to synthesize. You know what it is that these sources agree on about this technology.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Then I take that and I try to repackage that for you, the audience, in a way that is more entertaining than what you’ve been getting in other

Simone Collins: locations. Yeah. And that saves you time because. Even if we’re, we’re trying to compile efficiently. I mean, it takes a lot of time to like find the good sources, go through everything, choose what’s actually salient.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then the other thing that you won’t get from mainstream news, which is really bad, is you, they are too afraid. Of making mistakes in their [00:33:00] reporting, which means that there are huge areas that they essentially do not cover. And a great example of this was our recent video on the recent coup attempt in China.

And people will say, well, you know, we don’t have heart of confirmation on this part of the coup attempt, like the. The, the live battle with weapons. And so they’re like, so why do you, why would you report that? Right? If we don’t have full confirmation, it’s because the rumor mill is saying it happened.

And two the rumor mill that is saying it happened now, predicted that there was going to be some sort of conflict between g and these generals, and that that is something that was not being predicted by like the New York Times when I would read it. Like they didn’t say, oh, these generals are about to be ousted.

But the rumor mill said that these generals were about to be ousted, right? So, and that’s relevant for making decisions, geopolitically investing, planning the future. But in addition to that I can do things that the New York Times can’t do, right? Like, I can say, what, what’s the probability, you know, given that some people are saying that there was an armed fight.

An armed conflict [00:34:00] before these generals taken out, the XI would not just take out these generals, but arrest their entire extended family. Mm-hmm. And, and by the way, he legally wasn’t allowed to do this. He needed a full vote of that council. To arrest anyone else on the council. But because he arrested two of the people on the council Right.

And there was only two left, I mean, he never could have gotten that majority vote.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So he didn’t, he didn’t have a way to legally do what he did, which means that he must have felt extremely pressured for some reason or another. Like this is actually destabilizing. And so I have to look at that information and make an educated guess as to, okay, how plausible is what’s coming through the rumor mill.

Or you could look at something like what goes on with the Cuba story we recently did, right? Mm-hmm. Cuba running out of oil, the oil shipment stopping how Cuba’s likely to react to this. And a lot of people were like, why do we care what’s going on with Cuba? Right? Like, Cuba’s an irrelevant country.

And I’m like, well, Cuba is a big part of training. The leaders of a little group [00:35:00] called Antifa. And they do matter. What’s going on in the us They also were important in training both the leaders and setting up the United States Socialist Party, which played a big part in things like sohan Mond’s right to power, which is gonna be very important in the future of US politics.

Mm-hmm. If we can wipe Cuba off the board as an antagonistic player that’s really relevant to the future of. Culture wars in the United States which I think might surprise people that Cuba is a, a heavy hitter in the culture wars. But they are, they are a heavy hitter. Yeah. And

Simone Collins: I had no idea, no idea

Malcolm Collins: training programs or progressives and stuff like that.

But that’s something you wouldn’t know if you’re not. One interviewing was Antifa. People like that. What I was really queued into that is I was interviewing somebody who was in Antifa because again, getting original sources, right? Like somebody from Antifa watching our show, or a former Antifa member, they’re not gonna go to the New York Times or something like that, especially if they have some more out there ideas.

Worse,

Simone Collins: they probably have gone to the New York Times and the New York Times never got back to them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they don’t, they don’t care. But he would [00:36:00] drop something and then it’s important for people like us to notice when he drops something so I can dig deeper. So in one phrase he said, oh to talk about like how senior a person was.

He goes, they were trained in Cuba, right? Like, you know, he’s like, oh, you know, one of the real big wigs, you know, trained in Cuba or something like that. And I heard that and I was like, that’s a weird thing to say, is that a sign of status in Antifa? So then I start to Google to see, you know, when we’re doing the Google story, have other people said stuff like this that have had connections to Antifa and yes.

It is seen as a sinus status within these leftist networks who receive some degree of training within the Cuban regime. And I was like, wait, is the Cuban regime like flying people out for training? Google. Google. Google. Oh, they are. And I’m not seeing this reported in the New York Times. I’m not seeing this reported on Fox.

I’m not seeing them report that What’s happening now is the oil situation is relevant to our culture war, to these protests that are happening on the streets right now, that the people running these. Protests and these agitators are trained by Cuba and often funded by Russia. If you go to our [00:37:00] video on the BBL M, that BLM was overwhelmingly funded by Russia, we really pull out receipts in that one. And it’s been basically public knowledge for a while. Just nobody cohesively covered it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the question is, is like, why? And it’s like, well, because it didn’t fit the narrative that Fox News wanted to tell, which is Russian isnt that bad. And you know, being unfairly maligned.

And it didn’t fit the news that the progressives wanted to tell, which is BLM is great and not an AstroTurf movement. I mean, so nobody tells it, right? And so you need this sort of independent news. Source to get stories like that out there and get them in front of you, the viewer. Right. And, and, and for that reason, you can without on the ground rein, and, and people can be like, well, come on.

You can’t have sources everywhere in the world. And it’s actually, you can, you can have sources everywhere in the world that’s relevant. And the way you have sources everywhere in the world is relevant is because you either have people in the world, everywhere in the world that’s relevant. I mean maybe not like the middle of Antarctica or something, but generally whether it’s inside of universities or on the ground in the [00:38:00] Ukraine or on the ground, in the Russian forces or in Iran, and I can read those.

And we don’t just have people there, we have fans there who will reach out to us and be like, oh yeah, I live in Iran. I like you guys on this stuff. And or they’ll say, oh, you got this wrong or you got this wrong. And so then we go and we correct it. Right? Really annoying. By the way. I cannot change videos.

I can only cut parts out of videos that are on YouTube. So we cannot edit past videos. We can only mention that we made mistakes in future videos that I find very, very frustrating. But

Simone Collins: just more, more accurate reporting from direct sources, which is a very common element of modern YouTuber.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we are there, there are actually people there, and then there’s some countries that are so repressive that you can’t easily get stories out of them, right? Mm-hmm. But the, I irony about these countries is that the legacy media had completely failed at doing stories on these countries.

If I want an understanding of what’s going on in North Korea, I am not gonna get that from any legacy media source. I need to go to the YouTubers [00:39:00] and the Substack stackers who specialize in North Korea watching.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s the same as what’s going on politically in China. Mainstream news organizations. I mean, you basically need a spy network to do that.

Yeah. And the only way to get that spy network is through the rumor mill. Right. And there are specific rumor mills that work on these specific locations to try to understand what’s going on within them. And the legacy media just wasn’t able to cover that. So like, we’re able to break apart and unfold black boxes that they can’t even touch.

So I think that that’s another thing that’s really important, right? Like, that well, okay. And then, and then there’s that, and then there’s the, the framing and lens that the new media is able to give you. So if you watch us. We are a married team. We’re known for a prenatal list agenda, but also we have a big background.

We’ve written a number of books on things like human sexuality, things like human anthropology, the anthropology of religions, how [00:40:00] they evolved a lot of religious research like original origins research. Here, original, original, original religious research should mean heretical religious research.

You know, we do a lot of that. And I also, you know, I have a background in biology and psychology and neuroscience and brain computer interface in terms of like where I’ve worked and schizophrenia research. And you have a background in, in, in marketing. Business and environmentalism and because of these backgrounds, when the larger pool of information is filtered through us, it’s going to be filtered in a way, and we’re going to notice patterns that people was out that where’s my phone aren’t going to be able to replicate.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that that’s, that’s another thing that’s really important. ‘cause you weren’t getting that in legacy media. You, it was, you’d be very rare to have a random person at the New York Times have degrees in, let’s say neuroscience, unless they were covering neuroscience. You don’t have the neuroscientist, [00:41:00] anthropology, religion guy cover you know, what’s going on in Cuba right now.

And another thing that we try to do, actually, thoughts before I move on, Simone.

Simone Collins: No, I just, I like, I like the direction that things are taking.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well final note here that I also think is pretty interesting, and it’s a type of content that you’re able to get in this new world that you couldn’t get in the old world.

Mm-hmm. Is. Evergreen content. And by this what I mean is when I have some new crack brain theory about what might be causing the trans phenomenon, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like is it an alternative for unliving yourself? Or I’m asking myself, can we use the phasing out of lobotomies? Like once we realize that that was a harmful procedure to trade a chart, how slowly and what the phase out of something like childhood gender transition is gonna be phased out, you know?

And when it, when it comes to these sorts of broader, more theoretical questions or questions about like how reality works, you know, how, [00:42:00] how do what metaphysics of the background of reality, you couldn’t get that published in a mainstream publication. Right. Like that would just not ha they’re not even in an editorial in the New York Times.

You go to the New York Times and it’s like, I got some weird theory about why guys are turned on by X. Why, why women read so much gay fiction. Like, like why is there so many gay men and female fiction? And, and if the New York Times posted it, it would be an actual investigation. It would be like. Well, women love representation and,

Simone Collins: and women are amazing and they’re drawn by, or it’d be like, well, women love exploiting, white women love exploiting other cultures, and they read it because they’re horrible and they need to read more stuff about fat lesbians.

Malcolm Collins: But you know, I, I think that there’s that. Well, I think the other really fun thing, and it’s a reason why people watch us and, and are moving to these new networks, is even if you’re like progressive and you disagree with what we’re saying, you at least realize that we’re trying to be factual in the things that we cover, right?

And so you might see us cover something like, what’s the science on [00:43:00] which race is the most attractive? And you’d be like, you know what? No mainstream publication is gonna post that. And that’s something I want to know. Like that’s something that’s useful to anyone. Even, even if, if you’re in one of the less advantaged races.

And the, and the interesting thing about like digging into that kind of research. Is it allows us to say to a conservative audience, like, oh, hold on guys, maybe it does actually suck to be black in America. Like, look at these attractiveness ratings.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. It comes from a more genuine place.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, it’s a genuine place. And, and then, then that actually breaks through somebody and they’re like, you know what? I do feel bad for black people in America. Like black women do not reply to them at very high rates. And, and black men do not reply to black women at very high rates. And yeah. And their ratings, that’s just not, that’s not nice.

But do you, and let’s also talk about how AI is gonna change all this ‘cause AI is operating on top of all of this.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the core threat from AI in [00:44:00] regards to this stuff is you get harmonic patterns, is what I’m gonna call them. What I need to come up with an hint for this threat.

Simone Collins: Okay? But define this. What, what do you think are harmonic patterns?

Malcolm Collins: So, I’ll call it the AI Harmon Harmonic Synchronization Threat. So what this means is if you look at certain types of content, we did a video that Roman Romania TV actually found this, this, he was the one that first report this phenomenon and it was fascinating.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So a good example of him catching something. So he reported this phenomenon where if he listened to the AI about what. And exactly what to title that video.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: We get a bunch of, you know, AI’s folk running on minimum processing capacity in the comments responding only to the title and not the full content of what was produced.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They, they didn’t even bother, like crawling the transcript of this video to make a Yes. AI

Malcolm Collins: can crawl transcripts.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This, this meant that this was an [00:45:00] AI running on minimum capacity, basically.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like AI trained to be, a few tokens were spent. Oh my gosh. I can’t wait until people have like.

It turns a phrase, where’re like, I do not have the tokens for this right now.

Malcolm Collins: I do not have the tokens for this. No, we need to make that, that’s a base camp. We’ll make a shirt with that. I love that. I do not have the tokens for this right now. So, sorry, what was I saying? AI tokens. AI tokens. Oh, yes.

So, but the question was, is why were all of these bots responding to the video? That’s title had been recommended by another bot? And it’s because AI. Is very good at producing sort of the perfect average, the perfect averagely predictable. Next thought? Yeah. When you don’t run it. Whiz, the biases pre-built in which you should.

So if you, if you run the perfect average, then it’s gonna output the perfect average. So it outputs the perfect average, but that perfect average is also gonna be disproportionately appealing to other ais mm-hmm. That are looking for the perfect average to crawl. Mm-hmm. And so you get a [00:46:00] narrowing of the band of preferences, which can create something like the harmonic.

Preference ization problem. Mm. A a, a har a harmony at the heart of the algorithm, which can draw and narrow the algorithm to the preferences of AI over the preferences of humans.

Simone Collins: Yikes. Could totally see it though. Yeah, good point.

Malcolm Collins: Which would lower shows like ours, increase shows like say Mr. Beast or something, right?

Mm-hmm. And this also might be what causes, one of the questions that I think we all need to ask right now is why is. Candace Owens. ‘cause Tim was asking this and I was like, Tim Paul, that has a good question. Why is Candace Owens on the front page of YouTube? Right? Like, why has she managed to capture that?

I’ve watched her stuff. I don’t think her stuff is that entertaining. It’s fine, but it’s not that entertaining and it’s, she’s just. Wrong so frequently about, like basic facts about reality. And so

Simone Collins: that she pronounces Blitzkrieg blitz cre. [00:47:00]

Malcolm Collins: Well, that, that’s endearing. I

Simone Collins: would, I know it’s really cute.

I love it when people mispronounce things. Ben Shapiro has been making fun of her around the office saying that he wants to order blitz cream eggs for breakfast and maybe get some loft waffles as well. I love that. Oh God. Anyway, sorry.

Malcolm Collins: The question is, is like, I, look, I’m not pro like YouTube banning conservatives before, but like she goes in directions with her stuff that I’m like, this gets people banned, right?

Yeah.

Simone Collins: It is odd.

Malcolm Collins: Is this intentional? Is this some sort of controlled opposition? Is this, I don’t know, but be aware of this stuff. Is it that the ai, is it, has she found a Harmon frequency in the, in the algo around like antisemitism or something? Or, I think

Simone Collins: we’re in a, a post reality reality and what she says resonates with people.

That’s my take though.

Malcolm Collins: Post framework. That makes sense.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: that makes sense. Did you know that leaflet ended up playing your Candace Owen Chatbot?

Simone Collins: She did.

Malcolm Collins: [00:48:00] She called it a cursed reality.

Simone Collins: It is a cursed reality, but I like, I didn’t

Malcolm Collins: know that leaflet watch does until I heard that. That was really sweet.

Maybe she watched us to the end and even looked at the comments. That’s

Simone Collins: nice. That’s wild. That’s wild. She’s the best though. But yeah, I, I feel. I think that this development is very heartening. It’s very good. We’re going back to real gumshoe reporting. We’re going back to boots on the ground. Cyber. This source, cyber, cyber gumshoe.

Malcolm Collins: It’s better than gumshoe reporting because

Simone Collins: cyber gumshoe. I like this. I

Malcolm Collins: mean, if you wanna talk about like how extreme this is. The number one news story last year was reported by a teenage Mormon with his mom filming. No,

Simone Collins: I know. It’s perfect.

Malcolm Collins: Like Nick and exposing the Somali fraud. Yeah. And the question is, is why didn’t any media organization, why didn’t Fox, why didn’t anyone else break that?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Why weren’t they out there doing this? Well, and, and this is actually an another thing that’s been [00:49:00] discussed in many, you could say more academic or ideas, conference based discussions of journalism, which is the, the death of local journalism, because that’s actually where most of this was happening.

I think one of the, the, the stages in the slow downfall of mainstream media was the death of local newspapers and local news outlets. Like no local news stations that had. Reporters who would go out and go to sit in city council meetings and do boring stuff and talk with the lady who said that someone kept killing her cats and you know, like whatever.

Right. And just follow through with leads and see what became an interesting story because those local journalists were doing the on the ground work that fed up to national news outlets. It was interesting. And national news outlets trusted those outlets as their source of information when things like.

Citizen journalism via social media started coming out. Mm-hmm. National news [00:50:00] outlets did not feel comfortable. Pulling from it, I think maybe ‘cause it’s like you’re not our own, you’re not credentialed. And so they, they missed that train and they stopped using on the ground reporting that that basically ceased to exist because local news outlets no longer could afford to exist.

They didn’t have an audience, no one was willing to pay for those subscriptions and advertisers no longer supported their income. So. I think it’s, it’s lovely to see that we’ve returned to that, and it’s lovely also to see that. I don’t know. The, the other thing you haven’t talked about though is, and you’ve seen this a lot with the most recent Epstein scandal and, and drop reporting though.

It’s not even, yeah. People have been like, well, they’re not Epstein leaks. They’re the Epstein files, but it’s like the Epstein drop. He’s like dropping a new album. Yeah. What one of the latest hits? Oh, this one’s a banger. But that so much of the [00:51:00] stuff that started circulating ended up being AI generated and not actually real.

And a lot of the discussion was like, oh, I, I don’t know. Like, I haven’t checked, I haven’t double checked to see if this was real or not. Because the government didn’t exactly make the original files very easy to search or access. And, and so a lot of people were just looking at what was on X and a lot of people started posting fake things on X and, and remember this also being a really common issue, whenever there was a natural disaster, people would take a photo from a different flood and be like, oh, it’s horrible.

Now look, there’s sharks in the New York subway and it was always just a fake photo or from some other event or some other place. And, it’s only going to become so much worse and there’s going to be a, a huge crisis of faith because it used to be pix or didn’t happen. Yeah. And now it’s, it’s that I have absolutely don’t really mean anything.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like what pics, I dunno, don’t

Malcolm Collins: mean anything anymore.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s

Malcolm Collins: so frustrating.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: When somebody’s like, well that’s not true. You know? [00:52:00] Especially when it’s something that happened to you and you’re like, I, because before that Telemundo interview came out, I described it in a few episodes, it’s like bizarre moment with a reporter.

And I’m sure a lot of fans thought I was exaggerating or trying to spin the story in my favor. Mm-hmm. Or, yeah, it’s, it’s disappointing. And, and it’s, it’s very frustrating. But the, the other thing is, is that you only have your honesty when you have this sort of a position. And so I’m always worried that people will think, that, that we’re like intentionally manipulating information or that we don’t, you know, we’re getting facts wrong, stuff like that. So I try really hard to, to stay on top of that stuff. But I, I do find it interesting that when people mourn the loss of the on the ground reporter, what. They’re not realizing that the on underground reporter was a, usually a performative and masturbatory thing.

You don’t need some reporter standing out in the hurricane with, with clothes blowing around him to know everything that’s going on was that hurricane. [00:53:00] Right. Especially if you have people who are in the hurricane tweeting about it. Right. And thank god Elon bought X because now we actually live in a free information economy again.

Right. Anyway,

Simone Collins: yeah. Truly

Malcolm Collins: love you.

Simone Collins: I love you

Malcolm Collins: too. You’re amazing. And beautiful. And tonight I want to eat half of the leftovers for my chicken that I got.

Simone Collins: Oh, is is it an air fryer kind of thing?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. The one that I used to get.

Simone Collins: Okay. So like air fry for just two minutes? ‘cause

Malcolm Collins: yeah, they gave me a fairly large portion this time, so just half of it.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. Di Palace, is that what it was?

Malcolm Collins: It was Chu Chicken.

Simone Collins: Oh, so was it Dim Sum Palace or did you go to somewhere else?

Malcolm Collins: Dim Sum Palace.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay.

Malcolm Collins: I sent you the receipt for reimbursement.

Simone Collins: Thank

Malcolm Collins: you. And do, before you go down send me the copy that you used for the ad campaign so I can get that translated.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I used their AI optimization option. So there are lots of variations in title and in text.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: And all of [00:54:00] those were variations on what you said to me. Just so you understand why I’m about to dump a bunch of different

Malcolm Collins: things. That works. That works for me. And then in addition to doing that if you could write like a one or two line email for what’s her face?

Simone Collins: Well, I have to get the kids

Malcolm Collins: right. I Okay. Okay. Don’t do that.

Got, I got part one of my medieval garb here, first episode featuring it. We’re gonna get more so I can dress more like Simone.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s not you. You can’t wear it with a leather jacket.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It doesn’t look as good with a leather jacket.

Simone Collins: I gotta move. You have to wait. You, you, you, you don’t know how to wait for anything.

Malcolm Collins: I’ve gotta wait till we get the gamba in.

Simone Collins: Yes. Have some I, I’m excited about it too. Obviously, like self

Malcolm Collins: control.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Waiting is not your thing. You don’t, but who is time for waiting? You know this in this timeline. Fear.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right. I love you Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too. Bye gorgeous. And, Sorry, our children with the, the snot hanging from their nose. Yeah. I didn’t realize that snot nose kid is [00:55:00] like it.

It’s like a technical term. They, they just are, they just are smart. No kidding. SN news kids. Can you like the, just,

Malcolm Collins: sorry, I got my host club hair here.

Simone Collins: Oh my God. Just gonna,

Malcolm Collins: you just did an episode on Host Club. It’s probably gonna go in a few days. Host

Simone Collins: could be.

Malcolm Collins: And if you, you notice, ‘cause this is gonna go live before that, when I’ve got my new.

Outfit beginning to get medieval inspired wear, but I haven’t got the the jacket yet, so I just have the shirt at this point. Yeah, the shirt and the pants, which you can’t see, and Simone will show it off when I get the full set because I, I’ve gotta go more medieval, so I match Simone instead of my. I, I was trying to go for Mr.

Rogers look, but it just made me look like a lesbian. So like,

Simone Collins: well, you’re also like, oh, I’ll just go for an 1950s greaser until we realized that lesbians have also taken that one. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I also wanted for a pr I was like, oh, I’ll go for a greaser. That’s like a cool historic style, but no, I, I’d still look like a lesbian.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: The, the, the only sartorial male domains left are full out suits and ties. And just [00:56:00] like slouchy shirts, like and t-shirts, like sort of gamer wear or goner wear. And then like, is my hair

Malcolm Collins: okay? Do I

Simone Collins: need to go wash? You need to get it wet and comb it down, or like bodybuilder look. But in terms of that, which attracts females of all of those, it’s just the suit and tie which is not great.

So whatever.

I can’t believe they, they actually did some protesting outside. Like, I’m sorry, I just, I don’t understand. The [00:57:00] mindset, and maybe this is just something you have to like be CEO of a company or be involved in its finances to come to understand this.

But if you do not personally generate, or at least enable an ROI for your business, how on earth. Can you justify your existence as an employee? Like your existence then is a net negative. You are drawing the employee the company closer and closer to bankruptcy with every day of your employment. And yet the Washington Post had something like 16 climate change reports.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I’m pulling that up right now. ‘cause that can be a thing that we talk about earlier in the video,

Simone Collins: right? Like,

Malcolm Collins: oh, Simone, let’s jump into it because this is exactly what we wanna talk about at the beginning of the video.

Simone Collins: Okay. Sorry.

Speaker: Yeah, let’s, let’s see. So tell the fans, okay, what is this dinosaur? [00:58:00] It’s an ugly sous. Okay. We did not teach her this, by the way. I have no idea how she knows. What is this dinosaur? It’s a osi. What is this dinosaur? It’s a tell. What is this dinosaur? The top. Okay. What is. Yes. This dinosaur, it’s a black dinosaur with, okay, what is this dinosaur?

Speaker 2: Uh, it’s a dinosaur. Okay. What is this dinosaur? It’s a loc. Uh, it’s a loc out there. Okay. What is this dinosaur? It’s a T-Rex. Titan, you are really smart. I’m, those are some good dinosaur naming skills. [00:59:00] Yeah.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive into the juicy scandals rocking the trad wife and trad husband movements. From Sarah Stock’s alleged affair with Elijah Schaeffer (while preaching purity and getting a papal blessing) to Schaeffer’s epic meltdown, we unpack the hypocrisy, grifts, and red flags in conservative influencer circles. We explore why these “moral police” often crash out, cultural differences in sexuality (Catholic vs. Protestant vibes), and tips for spotting authentic people vs. fakers. Plus, our take on why peacocking signals low investment in relationships and how to avoid dead bedrooms or unfaithful partners. If you love drama with a side of cultural analysis, this episode is a must-watch!

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be going over the tire fire that has become the trad wife movement, the trad husband movement recently with some big, big scandals in it that are very entertaining. I, I went into these scandals and I was like, Ooh, this is just so juicy.

You know, you see people being bad and then the bad people get their come up ins and everything falls apart for them, and they go crazy, and you’re just loving every step of it because they were so inauthentic and terrible to begin with. Yeah. And then your, your friends come in the, the, the other weird random conservatives like Milo was inside gossip you know, still, still playing that role.

And then you get even on the, base camp subreddit, one of the posts and I’ll, I’ll I’ll play it, is like showing what trad wives are actually like, and it’s like the, the,’

Speaker: Oh, thank you, brother. God bless you, dude. She’s the [00:01:00] real deal. Men of honor deserve women of virtue. She’s perfect, bro. Ugh, another easy. 600 trad queen’s got to eat so pure bro. Look at her prey hands. Sending 50 worth it. Three roses. She’ll notice me for sure. Where’s your heart, Jake? You’re such a gentleman.

Y’all are such blessings. Back to the garden now. Trad wife cosplay. Every night across living rooms like this, young conservative men embark on a sacred ritual. Sipping their muse. A virtuous bread baking tread. Angel on livestream. Aw. Thank you brothers.

Malcolm Collins: the trad wife influencers are often just really e thoughts that are dressing up like trad wives and manipulating men with fake personas no more than the, the, you know, girl who decides she’s gonna dress up like a goth and like bounce her tatas around to try to get donations, right?

Simone Collins: Like it’s, and that’s what’s so funny is that people seem to think that women who engage in this is this form of very conspicuous signaling are are trad wifes. Like if, if you’re a trad wife, you’re someone who lives in very deep alignment with [00:02:00] their goals and is probably not very online. And someone who invests very heavily in signaling.

Is, is is very much going against what it means to be a trad wife. And we talked about this a little bit in the peacocking episode. The TLDR of it is if someone is signaling or peacocking in a way where they’re really trying to show like, my appearance is expensive and, and, and like I’m trying to catch your attention as a reproductive mate, it’s typically because they expect to invest disproportionately a little in your relationship, in your child rearing.

So you don’t wanna go after someone who’s very made up, who’s peacocking. Yeah. Because you’re not gonna be there for you. The very definition of a tra wife, I mean like functionally, is that a trad wife is someone who really shows up for the marriage. They’re going to be homeschooling the kid, they’re gonna be cooking all the dinners, they’re gonna be doing all the work.

Possibly also while making an income. And I do think that people like Hannah Neman really are bringing everything to the relationship,

Malcolm Collins: but I don’t think that she dressed like a trad wife when he met [00:03:00] her. I don’t think that she put on the trad wife persona when he met her. I think the, what I’ve seen of the women who become good trad wives is that they are not trad wives when their husbands start dating them.

Yeah. They don’t present that way. They don’t act that way. Okay. It’s a persona they pick up later because they want to contribute to the relationship as much as they possibly can.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So let’s get into the drama. Okay.

Okay.

Simone Collins: Yes. Mm.

Malcolm Collins: So Will Secka lived a quiet life rooted in face and political activism until allegations against his wife Sarah Stock pulled him into a viral storm as claims of an affair was Elijah Schaefer spread online.

Minnie began asking who he is and how he became central to this controversy. Sarah Stock and Elijah s Schiffer’s affair allegations have rocked not only turning points USA fans, but also brought her husband will seka into the spotlight. In conservative influencer spaces, image is everything.

Faith, marriage, modesty, and traditional values often form the [00:04:00] backbone of personal branding. That is why the recent controversy surrounding stock now Cska has drawn such intense online attention. Allegations of an affair was conservative. Commentator Elijah Schafer have not only put her reputation under scrutiny, but have also pulled her husband will seka into the spotlight.

He never sought as social media debates, hypocrisy, morality. Many are asking the simpler question. Who is will Seka the man at the center of the storm created by claims about his wife’s past actions. All right, so a whirlwind romance went viral. Sarah Stock and Will SKAs engagement in August, 2025 was widely shared across social media.

Sarah posted pictures of her ring in fields of flowers while speaking about purity, waiting for marriage and traditional courtship. The wedding in January, 2026 gained even more attention when the couple shared photographs from the Vatican after receiving Papal blessing from Pope [00:05:00] Leo the 14th. There’s Latin numbers there dressed in bridal attire.

The images quickly spread online, and here they have a post from Milo where he says, let’s start with Sarah Stock. So he’s releasing private images of messages he had with her

Simone Collins: wait right after she got married.

Malcolm Collins: And so he says if your husband doesn’t know, now is the time. I understand

you won’t see it like this for a long time, but as you can see from above, it is better for everyone that things come out in one burst today instead of metastasizing over weeks. Don’t let him find out from, it’s somebody else. So first, I like that Milo has the chill correct take on this. You, you, you cheated.

Tell your husband now make, make this a thing between you guys and stop this. Right? But no, she wanted to keep cheating is basically what we learned. And if she told him, she wouldn’t be able to. So, and [00:06:00] also Milo was a bro and not releasing all of this until after all of this goes viral, right? Like after it’s all public.

He kept your secret for a long time. So he goes on to say, in February, 2025, Sarah Stock and Elijah Schaeffer began sleeping together. The affair entered on the day she got engaged about six months later. In that time, they experienced multiple pregnancy scares. It’s alleged by one former acquaintance that Sarah got at least one abortion.

Oh my God,

Simone Collins: this

Malcolm Collins: is horrible. I’m telling Catholic sarah captioned one post saying she highly recommended, getting a marriage blessed by the Pope.

At the time, the images were praised as a symbol of devotion and face in hindsight’s. Critics now view the timing of these posts through a very different lens when she’s still sleeping with other other guy. Okay, so a lith chauffeur and Sure. Stocks scandal, all allegation shock. The internet. The controversy erupted after claims circulated online that Sarah had a months long [00:07:00] affair with Eliza Chauffeur, her former boss at RIF tv.

The claims are amplified by Post Michael Opolis. Yeah, her boss.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: how Chad, right.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: And the claims were amplified by posts from Milo Gianopoulos, who alleged that their relationship began in early 2025 and overlaps with her courtship of will. He says, Milo says here, I’m in touch with Elijah. I told him to get off the internet for a couple weeks and go to rehab.

It’s better for everyone to just rip the bandaid off. So I’ll share with you over the next few hours the info doing the rounds in private, at least what I’ve been able to confirm. So I’m getting the full images here so we can get the full text here. I’ve seen a dossier, someone put together.

Everything is coming out. My advice is to check yourself into as a facility sooner rather than later. There may be a life for you after this, but it’s going to depend on being totally honest about all the details and it’s going to require sympathy. As far as I [00:08:00] can see, drug addiction is the only card you have left to play.

If I were you, I would go out of my way to be a generous and decent with the wife and kids. This cross filing in other states for divorce is insultingly, childish and stupid. He also, by the way, crashed out on his wife. Observers will be asking, haven’t you put the poor B through enough? The investors don’t matter.

If they met you and still wrote a check that’s on them, I’m sure it’ll be a while before you are ready to start putting your life back together, but when you are, I will be there to help you. I’ve been trying to signal to you for the past year or so to cut off the BS and talk to me. I was hoping everybody could avoid this.

You may wish to be offline for the next week or two. And he goes, what do you mean cease and desisting people right now? But I got my car back, so that’s good. He, Milo then says, are you stupid? And the other guy goes, what do you mean? Wait, I’m just seeing the top of this. Hey man, I’m going through some [00:09:00] tough things.

Can you help me out here? What dossier shot you? A call your tweets. And then Milo says, in response, your tweets have been so erratic and insane. People are asking if you killed your family. There are the dossier being circulated that reveals all the details about the rifs collapse. Your drinking slash substance abuse, the affair with Sarah stock treatment of your wife, sexual habits and perversions, alleged prostitution.

Your wife’s filing for divorce and then your. Filing back in different states so you can make it out that you dumped her. It’s safe to assume everything in your life is about to hit the internet. Starting in at the beginning of my text, now that you know this you won’t take it, but I’m very strong advice is that you get off the internet for two weeks and check into rehab and be very effing nice to your wife.

Whether or not you have a professional future depends on it. Nobody believes this horse. S you’re posting about your car. Either you got away with being manic for a while, but the bill is now due. You are a very poor liar. It is not your forte. You should [00:10:00] find another profession, one in which you tell the truth.

Oh my God, for one, I love Milo being so sane. I mean, it is kind of slimy that he put all of this public, but also, you know, this guy is being an a-hole right now. Like, I do not feel sympathy for him. And you’ll feel less sympathy as the story go. It’s on.

Sarah stock, and now we’re, we’re going to another tweet. This is from Buckaroo Sarah Stock called other women w****s and sluts while she cheated on her fiance multiple times, despite a blessing from the Pope himself and her being a quote unquote Catholic and then allegedly had an abortion due to cheating.

And then they have a, a Nick Fuentes clip of him just being like.

Leaked audio clips and social media threads suggests that Sarah had confessed to the affair privately, while publicly maintaining an image of purity and traditional [00:11:00] values. And this I find the Nick Pointes saying ironic because the, the underground rumors I hear in right wing circles as he sleeps around with women all the time, he just pretends to be celibate.

Which. I think it’s, you know, better than the, it being true that he’s gay, right? Like especially given his, his public image. Not, not that it’s worse to sleep around than be gay. I just think that it would hurt his reputation less if that was true. And it does sort of explain why he’s in no hurry at all to get married.

Because, you know, as a straight guy, that’s very confusing to you, right? Like if I was a straight guy and I believe the things Nick Fuentes did about stuff like masturbation, I would be constantly desperate to get married. It makes no sense. And he has women that are just like, I will marry you if you’re, he has an entire community of fan girls, right?

Like, this is what I’m talking about when I talk about hypocrisy a among parts of this circle. And what I want to end this with is like, how do you tell the hypocrites from the non hypocrites? And for me, yeah. I’m gonna be honest, I think it’s [00:12:00] super easy.

Simone Collins: Okay, so what’s your secret?

Malcolm Collins: The hypocrites are the hierarchical deontological types mm-hmm.

Who are really obsessed with proper form yeah. Signaling. So examples would be Steve Bannon, so I’m not just putting this on the, the Catholic creators who recently came out as having been Epstein’s best bro. And after it came out that he’s like molesting kids, is trying to put out this big feature leaf documentary, revitalizing his image, showing he’s not that bad.

A guy recreating his branding. Like clearly he put a lot of effort into this and a lot of money into helping Epstein. Not good,

Simone Collins: not good.

Malcolm Collins: After, after the allegations were clear, specifically trying to make the allegations disappear. Wow. So, you know, I, I think that, that this sort of type, and you see this in the conservative circle, everybody knows what we’re talking about.

This is what, what defined the old GOP, right? Right. If you look at the new right creators. Is anything scandalous ever gonna come out about, like, say, asthma, gold or leaflet? No, I, I would be [00:13:00] astonished. Like genuinely astonished. Yeah. If a, if, if it turned out that asthma gold was doing something horrible, like sleep, sleeping around a bunch or something like that or treating women really poorly or if it came out that leaflet acted in a horrible way, I’d be like, what are you, or Kirsha, I would be shocked if Kirsha she’d never, and I think even Keisha’s Catholic, right?

So I’m not even just saying like, you know, I know she’s got that big Bostonian accent. So I, I always assume in my head when I hear the, the, the Bostonian Irish accent, I’m like but yeah, even, even Isha, I would be shocked because she comes off as so like, just genuine,

Simone Collins: but also these people.

I think the, the bigger thing for me is how much time do they spend talking about ideas or concepts versus talking about themselves, their lifestyles, and who they are. Life authenticity is about showing, not telling.

Malcolm Collins: I

Simone Collins: really actions over words. So if you talk about, well, I’m this, I’m that, and you also show.

I’m [00:14:00] like, I am, I am a trad wife. I am a virtuous Christian husband. And you post about it. And this guy who Sarah, whatever had her affair with, would post things very conspicuously on X. Like, here I am taking care of the kids while my wife goes to the gym to get back to her pre-pregnancy body. Guys, you’ve gotta support your housewife in getting out to the gym and like, just stupid, like very, very tell, don’t show.

And I think that’s that’s

Malcolm Collins: huge. Well, is this more than that? This other woman when she’s calling other women who sleep around a lot like bees and hoes and stuff like that, right? Yeah. While, while she’s doing it. I think that’s a, a really good indicator. Like, can you guys imagine Simone calling a woman who sleeps around a lot?

A, a bee or a ho? Like I, I think that to our audience, that would almost be. Comical to think

Simone Collins: of, I must insult people. Who do I insult on this podcast?

Who do I insult?

Malcolm Collins: Literally the only group we ever insult are Catholics [00:15:00] and sometimes Jews.

Simone Collins: I don’t, I don’t insult Catholics or Jews.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you don’t, you don’t even do that.

Simone Collins: Oh I’m really sorry. Anyone working in a bureaucracy? I’m so sorry.

Malcolm Collins: You don’t see them as human and you

Speaker 3: I don’t wanna shoot nobody. They’re just robots. Morty. It’s okay to shoot them. They’re robots. Feel like you shut up. Glen’s bleeding to death. Someone called his wife and she, they’re not robots, Rick. It’s a figure of speech.

Morty. They’re bureaucrats. I don’t respect them. Just keep shooting.

Simone Collins: No no. Like I do, I think that it, like, it, it, and it’s not, I don’t think that the individuals working in bureaucracies are bad people. Or that they are incompetent. I believe that they are incentivized to behave in a way.

That is incompetent. Like, why would you ever go above and beyond when you’re basically only gonna be punished for it? That’s not reported.

Malcolm Collins: I, I point this out about other people, like consider leaflet as an influencer, right? Like, are you gonna see leaflet going on and talking about how other [00:16:00] women are bees or hoes or something like that?

Not like, no, she doesn’t. And, and the key difference that I think you really hit it on the head here is these influencers, when they go out there, they tell you how you should live your life. You’re like, you need, you need to do X, Y, and Z to be a proper, manly conservative male or something like that.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Do as I say, not as I do. It’s

Malcolm Collins: very much that. Yeah. But when we go out there or leaflet goes out there, or asthma gold goes out there

Simone Collins: they lead by example.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, that’s not the point I’m making.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: When they’re investigating a point, they’re asking, but why? Mm-hmm. Like, why is it useful to act in this way?

I don’t say like, you should, you should treat your, you know, like the posts that he did. Like if I was gonna do something similar to that post, right? Mm-hmm. IE be a good dad, chip in with helping. I would be very well consequentialist about it. I’d be like, look X type of woman isn’t gonna wanna marry you if you don’t do X, Y, and [00:17:00] Z.

And then once you’re married, you’re gonna develop bad habits that’ll lead to, you know, resentment that’ll lead to these sorts of

Simone Collins: externalities. You don’t even do that. No, your yours is so much better. So literally you do post, ‘cause you add these like clips of you, like stuff you film when you’re around the kids, one like.

Not to dunk on you, but your filming is terrible. Right? So it’s like potato quality. I don’t know what it is. Like we both have pixel phones. Your pixel phone is newer than mine. Your video looks like you filmed it on, on a, a potato with a battery attached to it. And so it’s one, it’s like not all polished, you know, it’s not like Instagram perfect.

It’s not Mormon wife posted Instagram and then it’s like, it’s not you like standing with like a baby carrier, holding another kid, like in a beautifully perfect room. It’s like you looking around piles of trash in the, like the kid room after a day that they spend with you. And like the boys are like in a cloud of wrestling on the floor and you like kick them with your sock foot.

That’s like your video, you know? And that, like, that is, [00:18:00] that is how you know it’s it’s authentic. It’s authentic because it’s not. It’s not flattering, it’s just, but it shows, what it shows is that you actually demonstrably spent the day taking care of the kids, as you can tell from like the,

Malcolm Collins: oh, I bet he spent days taking care of the kids.

Simone Collins: No, and he, yeah, he did. But, but mornings.

Malcolm Collins: But it was the way that he told, well, his wife into the gym and trying to get hot. It was the way that, or, or she told people that. And I think that we need to, as a community be much more proactive about catching people acting like this because it’s, it is something that is toxic to the community itself before it comes out.

That they were just faking everything. Mm. To just

Simone Collins: point out red flag behavior even before the affairs come out.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Point out when they are insulting people in this sort of like, aggressive way when they are trying to create status hierarchies where they’re like, this is the correct way to be, this is the incorrect way to be.

When they don’t see other people who live lifestyles that they [00:19:00] disagree with, with empathy and say, you know, even when they’re talking to those people, this is why that that’s how we win at the end of the day when people come over to the conservative side. And I’ve, I’ve made this point before, but it’s a very important point for conservatives to internalize.

Hmm. Which is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse Muslim lady, I forget her name who Deconverted from his Islam and was a very well known.

Simone Collins: Oh, I Ali.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then she converted to Christianity. And everybody was like, why did you, when you became theistic, why did you convert to Christianity instead of Islam?

And she’s like, well, the entire time I was out there preaching atheism the Muslims would always come to me and say that they were gonna kill me or, and grate me. And she said, the Christians would often come to me, not always, but often come to me and say, well, I’m praying for you. And I, I, I, I hope that one day, you know, you change your mind on this.

And that, that made it very easy for her when she was like, well, is God real? You know, it’s this. And it’s not just that. More broadly, we’ve seen this on the right. Very generally is people come to the right and they expect everyone to hate them and treat them really poorly. [00:20:00] And by and large what they find is that people don’t hate them.

And they don’t treat them poorly. And they’ll say, I disagree with you on this, or this or this. Or they might tease them on an issue, but there isn’t the aggression they expect. And they’ll often realize pretty quickly that they get more hate in left wing spaces than they do in right wing spaces.

And this is really important. So even if you, for example, disagree with, say same sex relationships, if you want a person who is same sex attracted and thinks same sex relationship, normalization should be a thing to eventually change that position. The first thing they can’t, they, they, they shouldn’t hear when they tr come to the right for the first time.

And they have all these stereotypes about us and everything like that. Shouldn’t be some slur, shouldn’t be, I disagree with your lifestyle. Shouldn’t be, you know, it should be like accepting so that they get a chance to hear ideas and framings. Because I don’t think anyone on the right really believes that same sex attraction isn’t real [00:21:00] anymore.

Like, I don’t think that’s a, a talking point anyone has anymore about why you may not wanna base your life around something like this or sleeping around a lot, you know? I always hate this, that so many people in the right do things like sort of isolate Ayla, who I consider a very good friend of ours.

And a wonderful person. And I would say that I, I like with, with her the only way she ever gets comfortable saying, oh my God, the urban monoculture was wrong. Oh my God. These values are nice, is to espouse and explain these values without attacking individuals. And the problem is, is that the people on the right, which which does require some level of internal policing who do attack these people when they come into our communities are the people who.

So often turn out to be hypocrites. Hmm. And I, I, I would say IF see it fairly rarely if, if I can’t actually think of a single example of one of the [00:22:00] right-leaning figures who doesn’t attack people like this and then hasn’t, has, has later come out with some big scandal that just doesn’t seem to happen.

Simone Collins: Or who just is failing to live up to that ideal. Like they’re still perpetually single. Uncoupled alone, not living the trad dream.

Malcolm Collins: Well, okay, here’s another example of a right-leaning figure who I think is, is very different from us in many views, but I’d be quite shocked to hear some, some, actually, I even think he sort of like the exception that proves a world.

Okay? Okay. He did have a, a big scandal around him, which is Rudyard of, of whatever all his Rudyard. He doesn’t dunk on anyone, does he? No. He never dunks on anyone, is what I mean. But he has had a major scandal. So the point being is his major scandal was about him doing ayahuasca and, and crashing out about mysticism, right?

Like that’s not being mean to somebody. That doesn’t show that he has like a, a a mean heart or is fundamentally a hypocritical person, him crashing out on ayahuasca. [00:23:00] Is exactly something I would expect Rudyard to do. He didn’t like reveal some other side of his personality that was completely antithetical to everything he has presented himself as being.

He just was like, yeah, I am exactly who I have always told you I am.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: But what you don’t see from him is some scandal about him you know, cheating on a woman or beating a woman or something like that. Right.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I think also ‘cause this came up with someone who listens to the podcast and was talking about, I think this, this, this scandal like brought it up to me.

What scandal? This, this particular scandal. And

Malcolm Collins: what about it?

Simone Collins: Well, they said someone really needs to invent a genetic test for ho behavior. If Malcolm could do it, you guys could become zillionaires. And he thinks that there’s a genetic basis because there are [00:24:00] girls who, like, he, he thinks that there are genes that correlate with it.

I, I don’t really,

Malcolm Collins: I think there are genes that correlate with it.

Simone Collins: You

Malcolm Collins: do. You, you do. Oh, yeah. You isolate that. I’ll keep reading here, but back when I used to be a hoe, because I was a hoe younger, as I said, I’ve still around was like a hundred plus people. I really regret that I ever did that during that time in my life.

I didn’t really have some alternate framing of morality than the urban monoculture and, and what I got from my parents. And so I didn’t know, like I, I thought. I’m a young man. You look at what young men are told online, and it’s you are, you are more manly if you sleep around more. And this may not be as, as strong a message right now online, but keep in mind, this was like pre-read pill, right?

Like this was the, the community that bore that out. This is the community that, you know, Andrew Tate came out of it, everything like that, right? Like mm-hmm. It was sleep around and that’s what you do, right? And I have noted that that is enough people to get sampling. Data, right? Like to, to, to get enough [00:25:00] data between cultural groups and as people know, I, I, I almost exclusively dated not because if you watch your episode on like racial attractiveness, I just, for whatever reason, except for one black girl, exclusively white girls.

So I was able to compare white cultures specifically Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant culture was a, with a high degree of precision.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Because those were the groups and you

Simone Collins: think there’s a polygenic score for ho behavior.

Malcolm Collins: So, if you were going to rank women based on how horny they were Oh like constantly, like how much they wanted to sleep around just

sex

Simone Collins: drive.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I, I slept with a lot of other people’s girlfriends too. Mind you. So I also know how, how likely they were to cheat, I would literally put young Catholic girls that maybe three x the other two groups they are incredibly horny compared to Catholic.

Simone Collins: So not Protestants, Catholics.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think that there’s a historic reason for it as well.

So if, if [00:26:00] you’re looking at sort of biology, you needed to have a strong desire to want to get with somebody. And then after you get with somebody, have a lot of kids. Yeah. And, and, and Catholics historically were known for this. Yes, yes.

Malcolm Collins: They, they historically got married, younger and had lots of kids.

So being horny as a Catholic, especially if you have this deontological framework, because what Catholicism really is, is it’s a bunch of rules around like not masturbating, not spilling seed, not having sex outside of marriage. Mm-hmm. And so if you have all of these deontological rules, they basically funnel your internal biological drive towards an in-state.

Which is having lots of kids, right? Mm-hmm. Like assuming you cannot fulfill them with other people. Right? Now, you, you, you put that in a modern context where a lot of Catholics today you know, they don’t get married until they’re 30. They don’t get, you know, even when they’re [00:27:00] married, they’re not having sex constantly.

Right. If they’re sort of biologically engineered to just be having sex constantly in their like twenties to to to mid thirties and, and producing lots of kids, that’s going to lead to a lot of externalities. Mm-hmm. Whereas and PE by the way, people are wondering about the other two groups.

Simone Collins: In other words, you’re just arguing. There, there were more evolutionary pressures among people who were active practicing Catholics to have high sex drives like the Catholics with high sex drives Yes. Were the Catholics who inherited the future of Catholicism for a long time. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: They, they, they simply had more evolutionary pressures on having lots of having a high sex drive relating to having a lot of surviving children mm-hmm.

Than other metaphysical frameworks for reality. Interesting. That’s, that’s what Deontology does, although these deontological funnels, and this is why out of the other two groups the next most horny group was jus they were still fairly horny. , And as to why that that could be the case.

There’s still gonna be more biological pressures on a, on a, like Jewish because you have all the Jewish rules around, like [00:28:00] when you can have sex and everything like that. It’s just that Jews don’t hold to those rules as rigidly as Catholics do, but they have most of the same rules that Catholics do.

Well, there’s,

Simone Collins: there are also the rules, which are. Very, I guess, female sex positive of you need to pleasure your wife. She,

Malcolm Collins: And then of the Protestants I dated, I’d say that like half would, would count as what you would today call asexual or completely reactive sexual. My, my wife falls into this category which is a case that she does not like just randomly get horny except for like maybe once a year.

She. Uh, More than

Simone Collins: once a year, but it really, it depends heavily on like where I am hormonally. It’s very weird.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But, but reactive sexuality means that she does feel arousal, but like when you are touching her or rubbing against her, or you have already engaged her in some form of sexual No, it’s, it’s, it’s something that a lot of men do not understand.

A lot of women don’t understand and they think that they’re asexual. It’s [00:29:00] important to understand that that doesn’t mean you’re asexual.

Simone Collins: No. You have to activate sex mode. That is how you do it.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and this is because if you’re looking at the metaphysical framework that motivated reproduction was in Protestant communities.

If you look at the old framings of this, and we’ve done episodes of like why people used to have kids, why people used to have sex. Yeah. Protestant did it because it was like their duty to their family. It was their duty to their religion. You, you literally have ca names given to young Puritan girls.

Thou

Simone Collins: shall not Blaspheme Prudence.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. The one that I love was like thou shall have many children or something like that. Right. Like the, like literal, like just, you’re gonna do X thing. So the, it’s a, it’s a completely different framework about why you have kids. The, the Protestant women that had the most kids were the ones that felt the least.

External biological drives and were able to just logic themselves into having more kids. I’m just

Simone Collins: imagining like a, a modern, like pilgrim baby born like 10 years ago, being able like [00:30:00] learn to code.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The, the, the, whereas the Catholics who had the most kids were the ones who followed the deontological rule set that helped funnel their internal desire into children.

It’s a, it’s a completely different framework and I think it’s led to different outcomes, different population. Oh wow.

Simone Collins: Okay. So it’s not apologetic score, it’s are they consequentialist or deontological? Deontologists. That’s the question.

Malcolm Collins: And, and if you do that over generations, it leads to different outcomes.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I, I mean I think also your general rule of thumb of finding women who did not invest, who, who were more interested in raw, and I’m not saying like, I’m not like. You would go for crazy women. But it was through like Machiavellian or like insane ambition rather than social drama. So it [00:31:00] was they were manic, but they weren’t borderline personality disorder.

Or they were like highly neurotic or autistic, but they weren’t like schizo. And also you, you had, you didn’t invest in women who wore a lot of makeup. You didn’t invest in women who, yeah. Like styled themselves real. Okay. You had a couple, you, you had at least one girlfriend who was very good at styling herself and had impeccable amazing style.

But that was just because of her background. It wasn’t like. She did it because it was how she was raised. It wasn’t like she was trying to like infect. Actually,

Malcolm Collins: this is a, a, a a interesting point because I was just thinking about how different the two groups were. Yeah. Or I said that about half of the Protestant women that I, I I dated and slept with had reactive sexualities or like, were basically asexual bi societal standards.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I’d say about half of the Catholic women wanted to have sex at least every day.

Simone Collins: Oh, oh.

Speaker 4: do you get your five fruits and veg? Oh, I mean, I certainly tried to. I would say I probably, I probably do a day. A [00:32:00] what?

Simone Collins: So the one,

Malcolm Collins: it, it

Simone Collins: wasn’t like you talked about,

Malcolm Collins: it wasn’t like a, a small difference. It was like an enormous

Simone Collins: difference between one where there’s a conflict between like you studying and intimate time. That was she a Catholic girlfriend?

Malcolm Collins: I can’t remember. Was her.

Simone Collins: Okay. That’s interesting. But I, I feel like if, if I were to advise our sons, I would say. Don’t look at how she styles herself. Now we can fix that because like your mom fixed a lot of things about me after I was introduced to the family. Yeah. So you can, you can fix someone’s grooming and styling an appearance immediately.

As soon as she knew that we were gonna get engaged, she, she was literally like shipping clothes to my apartment. I, I wonder if I can like, dig up some of the pictures. She just like suddenly just starts sending me like, all her, all of her old clothes. Get,

Malcolm Collins: get dressed. Nice girl.

Simone Collins: Yeah. She’s like, Ugh, fix it.

She would

Malcolm Collins: hate your outfit today,

Simone Collins: by the way. It’s so She would, but then she’d be so excited about all the Epstein drops that she like, I don’t know. She would, would fall out, you know, [00:33:00] like, she awesome. But anyway, I do look at the girl. Don’t invest in styling. You could fix that. Look at her mother and how her mother has aged.

I think that’s a really important, like good rule of thumb.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I think, I think a good rule is don’t date overly horny girls. Like this is an easy thing. Right?

Simone Collins: Like me too. You, you wouldn’t need, oh yeah, I guess, yeah, if she’s really horny, she might need to satisfy herself outside your relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s but up. Well what about the guys who are like, yeah, but I need a girlfriend who constantly wants to pounce on me. Like, I don’t know. I think it’s one of those things like be aware, can’t have at all aware. She constantly

Malcolm Collins: wants to pounce on you. She’s gonna occasionally wanna pounce on other things as well.

Like

Simone Collins: the reason why don’t worry. Either you get dead bedrooms or you get an unfaithful wife. Is this like the, is this the choice? Yeah. Do you want the red pill or the blue pill? What are you gonna choose, guys? Actually, Wayne, in the comments, what would you choose if like, I mean, I, I think you’re right though.

I think it’s true. It’s,

Malcolm Collins: I I know, I think you’re right. And I, I, I’ll point out that your wife’s sexuality will go down the longer you’re married to each other, right? Like, yeah. People, and I [00:34:00] don’t think that that’s a bad thing, right? Like. I get to play with my kids more. Right? Like sex is a, a waste of time.

Oh God. I’m gonna get more

Simone Collins: emails. Simone, you need to go. Pleasure Malcolm right now.

Malcolm Collins: And I, and I bet you’re getting those emails from Catholic female fans because of Norm. I wonder Catholic culture.

Simone Collins: I wonder, I wonder,

Malcolm Collins: That’s just right to him

Simone Collins: right now. Pull

Malcolm Collins: out way more sexual and

Simone Collins: give him a b*****b.

Do it now. No,

Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s important to talk about this before I go further with this piece because I think that there is this perception and it leads to really big problems in society. Yeah. That white people are all the same and white people are not all the same. We are biologically and psychologically quite different from each other.

Hmm. And if we don’t call that out Yeah. And you try to force yourself to live in the way that another group is designed to live.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And often right now I I, I argue that a lot of people are trying to live like the urban monoculture, which borrows the most from Jewish culture. It’s got a bit of Catholic [00:35:00] culture mixed in.

It’s got a bit of Protestant culture mixed in. And then they try to apply that to other cultural groups and people are like, why? Why did the Jews fertility rates not hit as much as other groups? And I’m like, well, because the Jews are still living in Jewish culture. Right. But you are trying to live in like friendship is magic nonsense.

Watch our episode on why Jews have friends where I point out that a lot of cultural groups just do not have large friend networks historically.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if you go out there and you say, well, I’m only gonna be fulfilled if I have a ton of friends. And you’re not from a culture that’s like biologically built to have lots of friends, you’re gonna be effing miserable.

Absolutely. And you’re gonna go to parties and you’re gonna be like, why the heck am I at this party? This is not fun. Yeah. Nothing about This is fun. You will go to a nightclub and you will say. The, I do not biologically understand why anyone is here. Or if you’re, if you are from a culture that’s biologically built for those things, and it’s okay to be different, right?

Like, it’s not bad to be different, but if you’re biologically built for those things, you go to your other friend’s house and you, they, they play d and d or whatever, [00:36:00] and you’re like, this is the most boring thing I’ve ever seen in my entire life.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And they’re having a blast. These people appear to be having, why is this happening?

Yeah. And it’s because we don’t allow the answer to be, they might be biologically different from you.

Simone Collins: That’s a really good point. That’s a really good point.

Malcolm Collins: Like with d and d, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll point this out. What, what group do I think is biologically more prone to enjoying d and d, the East Asian ethnic group?

The East

Simone Collins: Asian, I dunno. I don’t see very many like East Asians famously into.

Malcolm Collins: Really if you go to like, from what I remember, like DD stuff, I always remembered unusual amount of East Asians like leaflets. An example the, I I, I don’t know among the white groups, because I haven’t been in DD enough to make that distinction among the people I see at DD groups.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Honestly, I’m just, I’m thinking of all the, all the people who showed up on Harman Quest and the people who had

Malcolm Collins: I, and I’d also note here, because I wanna be clear about this this [00:37:00] particular Protestant, Jewish Catholic distinction that’s sort of like partially biological it is not one where I am strictly saying that like it is worse to marry someone of Catholic descent.

Because here I’m pointing out that if you don’t want a dead bedroom of that’s like your nightmare scenario Catholics are gonna be the lowest chance of that happening. Yeah. Well I

Simone Collins: think this is a really, no, it’s a really good point though, in that. It. The, a really big element of the, like perfect trad family is a chaste wife who was a virgin coming into marriage and, and saved herself and didn’t feeling

Malcolm Collins: sex

Simone Collins: was her eye.

Never wanders. And then, but, but, oh, you know, God forbid, like you would ever have to initiate or that she would ever not be interested.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. Actually, I, this changed. This changed, and I think that this is part of the problem with modern tra culture

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Is that historically the perfect tra wife was not super horny for her husband

Simone Collins: was sexually [00:38:00] reluctant.

Malcolm Collins: Really? She, she was sexually repressed in all things. Okay. She would have sex to have children, but she was not like,

Simone Collins: oh, so, but it was understood that you would be intimate with a dead fish.

Malcolm Collins: Right. If, if you look at well not necessarily a dead fish, like she might try to engage, but you look at like Puritan writings around sexuality and stuff like that.

You got steamy

Simone Collins: Whatcha talking about like they didn’t, they didn’t.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. They talked about sex very graphically and in a steamy way. But the reason why they talked about sex graphically in a steamy way is you could tell that sex just was not very tempting to them. Like they could afford to be so steamy because in the same way that like we, if you read the Pragma Guide to Sexuality, we go really deep into really bizarre fetishes.

But it’s because the entire field is just so un alluring to us.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: It’s not something that, that evokes this reflective, like, I’ve gotta push this away from me because it’s not a grabbing of us in the same

Simone Collins: way. No. I think actually for people, if like, [00:39:00] just, just to head off, everyone is gonna write to me and tell me like, okay, for me sex is a lot like alcohol.

Where like I will knock back five ounces of vodka and feel like kind of happy or whatever, right. And like, you know, Malcolm and just get like really cheerful and loving. And it’s great and I enjoy it and it’s fun. And it’s the same with sex. Like I’ll, we’ll go for it, you know, and it’s great. But like also sometimes we need to work or like we have to choose, like, I have to choose between like, am I going to knock back five ounces of vodka?

Or am I going to like. Be more efficient in cleaning up tonight?

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I mean, this is, this is really what it comes down to. You’re always choosing between things. And right now what are we working on? We’re trying to save society. We are trying to save not, not just socially, not just through Tism, but also from ai safety related stuff.

I mean, that’s the end goal agency in our fab. So every day, huge, long hours, but also be there for our

Simone Collins: kids. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And, and then we’re trying to raise five children right now and, and, and [00:40:00] more every year. And so I need to ask myself, if ever I’m like, oh, I wanna have sex. I’m like, is this it? Is the pleasure I’m feeling from this, literally more important than potentially saving the world.

Right? Like the. The fixing this AI issue,

Simone Collins: but actually the, like, actually think about it guys. Like, so the, so the kids are like asleep or something and then, you know, Malcolm wakes up at 2:00 AM if we end up banging, you know, he’s probably gonna sleep in a little bit.

Malcolm Collins: I’ve lost like a day of work time because I’ve exhausted myself during the only time I get alone.

And then,

Simone Collins: yeah, because like he, he uses like we, we both just sort of mentally wind down a little bit after the kids are in bed. Like, it’s the one time we take to like do stupid stuff. Like I watch legal procedural, this I

Malcolm Collins: don’t

Simone Collins: believe tune. And you watch whatever anime on crunchy roll and like, well

Malcolm Collins: this, this is why I do not believe that people like Ellie Eer Kukowski have ever been serious about AI safety in a lot of the EA community.

Oh, if you have time to be polyamorous, you, you are not. Actually that concern

Simone Collins: or just to like hang out and [00:41:00] socialize. Yeah. ‘cause I mean, you we’re like literally choosing between like, do I, you know, go to an essential doctor appointment or do I, you know, work code on this AI thing? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I, I wanna point out here, Simone that living this type of like 24 7 grind set is not something that people from some cultural backgrounds are really built to do.

Yeah. And one of the, the, the things I’ve noted about this, if you talk about adapting cultures that you’re not biologically adapted to is a really high rate of unli of white people who try to adapt JN culture. Because JN has a stoicism combined with a 24 7 grind set instead of a vitalism combined with a 24 7 grind set.

Ah. And that just doesn’t mix with. Most white cultural groups and,

Simone Collins: and I think, yeah, people need to be forgiving. Yeah. When people try to shove themselves into cultures that their biology isn’t designed to like

adapting

Malcolm Collins: for Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like we are all about this like thin lip American gothic, like just leaving the [00:42:00] point I was making is that if you look at

Malcolm Collins: America traditionally Yeah.

The, the perfect trad wife was not constantly horny. The thing that broke trad wife was the idea of a trad wife who’s always gonna be horny for her husband.

Simone Collins: Oh, this was when tra wife met Stepford wife, and then

Malcolm Collins: it was when trad wife needed to become sexy. And we have an episode. Who did that happen?

Well, we have an episode titled how girl Defined Ruined an Entire Generation of Women. A a joke on the How Scott Pilgrim ruined an entire generation of pilgrim women. And specifically what I point out in that episode is they started to say things like, if you wait till marriage for sex, sex is so much better.

Simone Collins: It’s, oh, yeah, yeah. They’re basically trying to say. Well, we offer everything the progressive debauched culture offers just within the bounds of marriage. Oh. And they were trying to say, well, we can do it better and

Malcolm Collins: wrong. Yeah. They were trying to be like, sex is actually the purpose of life. Sex is actually [00:43:00] like, sex is actually the best when what they should have been selling and what should have been being sold.

Like,

Simone Collins: get over yourself.

Malcolm Collins: Sex is not that great. Mm-hmm. Sex is not the purpose of your life. Yeah. Sex does not make you more of a man or a woman if you need to have sex to have kids do it. But otherwise, it’s a recreational pastime. No different than any other self-indulgent recreational pastime. Yeah.

And you don’t need to say that it’s okay to be like, if you don’t have sex till marriage, it’s going to suck in marriage. It’s, it’s, it’s gonna be worse than the person who has learned techniques from a bunch of different people. Like, that’s just obviously true. Right. I, who’s that

Simone Collins: bad?

Malcolm Collins: No, you’re, you’re fine because I know what I’m doing and I know how to teach you what to do.

Right. Like, but the point being is this myth of you know, abstinence, making sex with the person you’re abstinent for better

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Ends up leading eventually, I think for a lot of these women to be like, well, if, if, if sex was this big, magical thing and I was told [00:44:00] that sex was gonna be this big, magical thing and I saved myself for it, and I did it in marriage and it still wasn’t magical, well then maybe I need to try it with other people.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe it’s just my partner. And that’s where instead of being like, no, sex is just like not, but keep in mind my strategy here is the Protestant strategy historically. Yeah. To say sex is just not that good. Sex doesn’t matter that much. Do not pedestal sex. Mm-hmm. And it works with my biology to our Catholic viewers, this strategy may not work for you.

Right? Like you may need to come up with a completely different strategy to deal with urges that my wife and I just don’t have. And it’s a, a whole, I mean, it was in the current like social order to say that, right? People are like, oh, that means your marriage isn’t as strong or anything like that. It’s like, no, yeah, I’m

Simone Collins: gonna get those emails.

Malcolm, just, you wait.

Malcolm Collins: My wife has literally never once in our entire relationship turned me down for sex. Never once.

Simone Collins: Because you’re hot.

Malcolm Collins: If [00:45:00] I wanted to have sex every day, I could. I choose not to because I think I, I have a responsibility towards society, towards something greater

Simone Collins: In the past, like, you know, 20 times, I’m pretty sure I’ve initiated like 19 of them.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, actually that is true. The past 20 times, you have initiated at least 19 of them because I am much more disciplined about this than you. But anyway.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. Yeah. We haven’t even included my botched initiations when I’m bang at your door on

Malcolm Collins: the door. Anyway, you gotta continue the author article and we’re never gonna finish this.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. One user on X said the trad wife image just collapsed in real time. Another wrote this is peak hypocrisy. Even if half of it is, even if only half of it is true, Sarah later deactivated her ex account as the backlash intensified.

And then here’s a tweet from John Root. Here’s another reminder that the vast majority of Christian conservative influencers are Christian in name only. It’s a grift to them. Sarah Stock is just another example. They don’t care about living for [00:46:00] Jesus. They just want to use his name in vain to build their brand, cash, their checks, and get invites on podcasts and fancy dinners and conferences. It’s twisted in either We’re

Simone Collins: are,

Malcolm Collins: oh, we’re not Christians.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s why we’re not,

Malcolm Collins: oh, here’s another thing I note. If you, if you’re like, how do I tell who the real ones are and who the fake ones are?

Uhhuh another really easy difference is are they following all the rules or do they have a unique theology and metaphysical framework?

Simone Collins: Oh, that’s, yeah. How nerdy are they?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If you look at them mm-hmm. And every single one of their beliefs looks like the form of vanilla ca, Catholicism Yeah.

Paste. That’s going to be accepted by a conservative audience without anyone being like, you are weird here, or you are weird here. Yeah.

Simone Collins: They’re like, well actually, and then, then, you know, they’re for real. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They’re probably, yeah. Fake. If, if, if their theology or metaphysical framework or belief subverts [00:47:00] normal conservative culture in a number of ways mm-hmm.

You, they are much more likely to be being honest with you. And this is something I tell women all the time, A woman will say, how do I know if a man isn’t just pretending that he wants a long-term relationship pretending to parrot my views back to me Okay. To sleep with me. Mm-hmm. And I go, if he parrots back every view you want to hear and parrots back an ideology that looks exactly like your ideology, he’s lying to you.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Real ideologies. Have differences from yours.

Simone Collins: 100%.

Malcolm Collins: And this is why I know that somebody like Rudyard, for example, is being honest. There are all sorts of parts of his ideology that very much differ from the trad conservative ideology that he would be pretending

Simone Collins: well or honestly from anyone’s ideology.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If he had a even

Simone Collins: conspiracy theorist ideology. Even for mystic’s ideology. Yeah. It is unique to him. And it is therefore

Malcolm Collins: this is, this is, if you go to Sargon of a cod, for example Sargon of a cod is very open about being an [00:48:00] atheist. Right? Like if he was putting on a fake persona about his beliefs, he would just pretend to be a Christian.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It would be way easier. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: If you look at our beliefs, our weird techno puritan nonsense, it’d be way easier not to have that. It would be way easier to have those beliefs. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Probably you’re talking Yeah. That the article mentioned fancy dinners and stuff, and I’m like, aw. The stuff we could have maybe, maybe Heritage Foundation would’ve given us like fellowships or something.

That would’ve been

Malcolm Collins: nice. If you look at a, a conservative influencer who hasn’t had a big crash out yet, but to me would come off as very suspicious of likely having a crash out in the future. Ooh, Tim Pool. Tim Pool is way too down the line, conservative for me.

Simone Collins: But, but he used to be a occupy Wall Street.

Malcolm Collins: He did, he did, used to be Occupy Wall Street, which makes it even weirder that he doesn’t seem to disagree with conservatives on any major talking point.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That is weird. That, that he, he should have things that he is regularly disagreeing on. He should have some [00:49:00] opinion that regularly splits his audience.

Simone Collins: Maybe this is though a product of us not being deep enough in his lore. I don’t

Malcolm Collins: watch. Yeah. Maybe we’re not deep enough in his lore. I want, I’m just missing

Simone Collins: something. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But I, I, I will say that I do find it suspicious that I can go an entire stream without hearing a single point that I would say differs from mainstream conservative values.

Mm.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Red flag I guess you have to, people will comment if he has heterodox.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. People will comment and be like, oh, you’re missing this, or You’re missing this about

Simone Collins: good. ‘cause we want that because I want to believe that Tim Poole is a, is a bro.

Malcolm Collins: But to continue here this is from Venom. Meet Sarah Stock popular right-wing Catholic t trad influencer.

February, 2025. Started sleeping with Elijah Schaeffer. She had sex with Schaeffer the day she met him. She slept with him the day before. Her engagement, multiple pregnancy scares did one abortion. She got engaged in August, 2025 to Will Seca lied to her husband that she was a virgin and told him to wait until marriage.

Oh, while she’s sleeping with another guy she fooled her husband. Thousands of her followers. Why are women like this? How can somebody [00:50:00] preach traditional values while secretly living the opposite? Well, the answer is, is because people like us don’t preach traditional values. The people who are have values that have any element of traditionalism wisdom do not constantly preach them.

They explain them. They explain why living a lifestyle wisdom might be better and why they might have been wrong in their previous values. They don’t. Preach them, but to continue here. Mm-hmm. SEC is described as working in political organizations in grassroots activist circles, unlike his wife, if he kept a very low public profile.

Oh no. The honest one keeps a low public profile. There were no viral videos, no regular commentary, no influencer persona. His online presence was mostly Sue Sarah’s posts, especially during their engagement in wedding. His surname also became an unexpected talking point. Some online users pointed out his Eastern European roots sparking ironic comments giving Sarah’s previous arguments about immigration and European identity.

Oh wow. One user on X said she mocked immigrants while proudly taking a surname was an immigrant history. Sarah’s stock faces [00:51:00] massive backlash. Sarah built her online identity around anti-abortion views, modesty, and strict Christian morality. Because of this, the alleged details of are fair claims struck many followers as deeply contradictory reactions online were harsh and emotional.

Some users accused her of misleading or followers. Others expect sympathy for Will Ska describing him as an unwitting husband caught in an internet storm. Here we have a tweet from Brian Atlas. Sarah stock claims to be a virgin and waiting for marriage on the whatever podcast body count reveal. Was she lying?

Users on X said quote, imagine finding out that your marriage is trending for the worst region possible. End quote. The controversy also reopened debates about authenticity and influencer culture, especially in ideological spaces where personal life and public messaging are closely tied together.

Here we see the raw egg nationalist friend of the show been on the show. Woo. Yes. One months before he died, Charlie Kirk congratulated Sarah stock on her engagement. She had been having an affair with her married [00:52:00] boss. The moment her boyfriend popped the question, what a tangled web try to influencers weave.

And that’s her showing her ring in front of a feel with Charlie Kirk saying, congrats. Marriage is amazing and marriage is amazing when you have a good partner. And I still, by the way, think Charlie Kirk’s partner is and has been a good partner, and I do not like the scandal that people make up about her.

I think it’s deeply disgusting the way that people like Nick Foes talk about her

Simone Collins: Candace Owens and a bunch of other people,

Malcolm Collins: and Candace Owens, a lot of Janice Owens, by the way, is somebody who I would totally expect to have a crash out. It, it,

Simone Collins: I’m sorry. She’s been crashing out. Oh, never. Sorry guys.

I know there’s a lot of really big Candace Owens fans who watch Basecamp. She’s fun, she’s very entertaining. But yeah, there’s, she’s having moment. I

Malcolm Collins: haven’t seen her go against her fan base. She may be spiky, but she doesn’t go against her fan base from what I’ve seen, which to me is a sign that she might have a crash out soon.

Simone Collins: I don’t know. I, I see her, well, I mean, at least I would be shocked if she wasn’t utterly devoted to her family. Her husband works with [00:53:00] her. I don’t know. Like I, I, I get the impression that she’s very much leaned into them.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe to me she just has a lot of warning signs.

Simone Collins: No, for sure, for sure. I mean, she’s opportun.

She’s she’s enterprising. She’s an enterprising young woman.

Malcolm Collins: Throughout the scandal, will Secka has made no public statement. If you, what a classy guy this guy is. He has not appeared in interviews nor respondent on social media. The silence has only increased public curiosity about her commentary on videos and threads often refer to him as a private man pulled into a public crisis.

Poor man. Many discussions frame him as l less a participant, and more as collateral damage in a story dominated by louder personalities. What happened to the full story?

What happened to the full story?

Simone Collins: Wait, what?

Malcolm Collins: This is not the story I meant to read. We’ve gotta get the full story and finish it another day.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah. ‘

Malcolm Collins: cause there’s a story about how the other guy who was having the affair crashed out.

Simone Collins: Oh, [00:54:00] yes.

Malcolm Collins: It was effing hilarious. Well, I’ll skip to the good crash out portions from that story and we’ll finish that another day and stitch it on here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Or you can record it over, like, as an add-on to this as you just do that.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. You have to, you want me, you have to react. This is fun stuff, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love the gossip. I do.

Malcolm Collins: I wouldn’t able to gossip on our podcast. No. I love gossip.

I

Simone Collins: love gossip.

Malcolm Collins: We wouldn’t get gossip. Okay. And I love that our, our part of the conservative scene has no gossip.

We, we generally, like none of the online new Right drama really attacks each other aggressively. None of the online knew. Right. Really seriously. Right. Like,

Simone Collins: well, I have like genuine affection for even the people who I think like strategically are the most, like opposed to us, like the, like I for example, I love Emma Waters.

I love her so much. I love her husband. I [00:55:00] love her. Oh yeah, she’s great. She recently tweeted something along the lines of like, IVF is going to be the new, like, pro-choice front of the war. Like, we’re moving the front lines from abortion to IVF. I’m like, wow, here we go. Well,

Malcolm Collins: and people are, people like us are gonna stop fighting for Republicans.

If you get people voting for that.

Simone Collins: I mean, it’s just, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be a very interesting debate. And, and, and despite that, despite the fact that we’re gonna be at ideological loggerheads there. I, I love them. I love them. If they, if their house burned down and they’re like, we need somewhere to stay, I’d be like, come here.

You know, like that kind of love and you know how I feel about people. I hate people. I don’t wanna be around people, but I would open up our house to them. So yeah, it just, that’s such a contrast to the rest of this movement, which feels so catty. It’s like fifth grade girls, they’re so mean.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they’re a completely different thing.

They’re all old school Republican, like, you know, turning points, USA types, right? Like that community had a lot of, of [00:56:00] people who just cared about signaling. Whereas if you look at the online, right, you know, you’re, your, your kirsha is your nex, is your ESMA gold, your,

Simone Collins: because fundamentally these are people who care about society and the future of humanity.

Like, we may disagree about tactics, but we, we have very spirited debates about how to do it. And we’re all like really trying to like, work on this project that is humanity. Like that’s what we’re artistically all so excited about. And we understand that like we’re not mad at each other for disagreeing.

‘cause we’re like, I respect that you care about this as much as I do. Let’s figure this out together. And I love that. And like, a little rivalry is fun too. I mean, we can have fun. Oh gosh. Okay. We have to get the kids. I love you.

Malcolm Collins: Love you

Okay, here is the longer juicier article.

Malcolm Collins: for much of the past decade, chauffer has been a regular presence on the far right conservative media scene as a podcaster commentator, and in his latest incarnation as the CEO of the Outlet Rift tv. Schaeffer in various sidekicks would often discuss TRA values of which he married in [00:57:00] 2020.

And now the father of two young children was not just an outspoken supporter, but presumably an exemplar. A few months ago, chauffer took a mysterious months long absence from his live string show on Rumble the right wing video platform when he returned last week on January. Six. He looked rough.

Chauffer admitted his face was unusually red. He blamed the lights in the new studio and said he had developed a quote unquote permanent black eye from a crushing mental stress as he put it, and that would cause a lesser man. To Un alive chauffeur certainly had plenty to be stressed about. FBI Director Cash Patel’s girlfriend is suing him for suggesting she’s a Mossad agent.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: he claimed that people were trying to kill him, but unbeknownst to his listeners as something else was weighing on chauffeur. Despite being one of the digital rights, most vocal boosters of traditional families he had filed for divorce from his wife four days earlier. Ditching his usual material aimed [00:58:00] at whipping up hate towards Indian immigrants and Muslims.

Yeah. Chauffer instead used his return show to launch into a baffling rant straight out of family court. He vowed that he wouldn’t give up his sons quote without a few shots fired. In quote, he told his viewers he wasn’t necessarily speaking metaphorically. Right

Simone Collins: nor normally that ends with in Minecraft, but not in Minecraft.

Malcolm Collins: Minecraft.

Simone Collins: He’s like, no,

Malcolm Collins: Minecraft. I’m not, I’m not gonna go down without, without, you know, a few shots fired. Ver said figuratively. Figuratively. Of course we’re saying, but physically too, if needed. Oh

Simone Collins: God,

Malcolm Collins: this is about his wife. Mind you then a chauffeur.

And then Chauffeur appeared to address his estranged wife. Mama Bear. Mama Bear. F. You chauffer said, what about dad? What about Dad? Don’t f with me. Don’t f with my kids. Don’t f with my [00:59:00] income. Don’t f. With my ability to take care of my kids, I will F you up. The monologue grew. Stranger Chauffeur urged his fans to, to learn from him and overcome their addictions, their thoughts of unli, their impulse to commit criminal behavior, and their sexual proclivities.

Still, he couldn’t help but limit how far his star has fallen. I’d really like to regrow. I’d like to get back to where I was a couple years ago. He said, why wouldn’t you? Chauffeur was once a rising star on the right, not as a commentator on TRA issues, but as an ad-libbing political loud mouse. His coverage of the 2020 riots in the wake of George Floyd’s murder propelled him into a job hosting a popular show for Mentor Glen Beck’s network.

Blaze Chauffeur’s, boozy. Racist frat boy persona was a hit, and it seemed not even asserting that Mormons like his boss, Beck would burn in, hell could stop him. He literally was in Nancy Pelosi’s office on January 26th and saw his statue grew because [01:00:00] of it. But in 2020 chauffeur. Fired from Blaze after allegedly groping a coworker.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: cow. He also provoked another harassment lawsuit against the outlet from his female co-host. What, sorry, I’m clicking on this article about him groping he groped a colleague’s breast without her consent. Jesus, how could, how do you not just not grope a coworker?

Simone Collins: Yeah, it seems, I mean.

Yeah, if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna grope, keep it

Malcolm Collins: off a workplace. This is when he took a he, this is when he took his trad turn. Chauffeur emerged from that initial disgrace by becoming a vocal family man, touting his wife and children frequently on social media and shaming other influencers who didn’t have strong marriages and households.

It worked for a time, but it apparently wasn’t enough to off financial trouble for the RIF tv. An online channel chauffer launched last May. [01:01:00] The platform had seen its public staff list dwindle in the last few months. This job has destroyed me, and I’m not even very popular, chauffer said during a January 28th, worse was to come on Monday.

Chauffeur posted a bizarre video that showed him wandering around an empty hotel conference room as they were flooded with water. What

Simone Collins: I clicked through to that, and it is exactly as described, just him holding the camera and, yeah. Flooded hotel. It’s weird. Very fever, dreamy, very fever.

Malcolm Collins: Well hallucinating on an unknown substance.

Simone Collins: Yeah, just click on it, you’ll see it. It is exactly as described that you think, I don’t know how else to put it. There’s no other way you can put it. It’s a flooded hotel conference area.

He’s in a dark place.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: he’s in flooded liminal spaces hallucinating. It’s not good.

Malcolm Collins: No, but I also find it a very interesting thing and it shows [01:02:00] his psychology that he goes from groping a female coworker to trying to play up the trad image. I am lucky. I do not have a problem with groping. I’ve never felt tempted to grope a staff member.

Simone Collins: It just seems, I, it, I guess, is it about power theoretically that like, I can do this and I’m gonna get away with it?

Malcolm Collins: Maybe,

Simone Collins: but I think that in the past it was more just like. The same kind of impulse that maybe grandparents have with grandchildren’s cheeks. You know, like, oh

Malcolm Collins: no, groping of breast is not like that,

Simone Collins: Simone.

It’s not, oh,

Malcolm Collins: no,

Simone Collins: I don’t know. I can’t, I can’t model this.

Malcolm Collins: Even when I was horny all the time, as a kid, I, I would, I would better than to grope other, like the level of self-control you need to lack to think that that will end up okay. But then to go from there to the TRAT influencers. Chick anyway. On [01:03:00] Tuesday, chauffeur made a strange expost about his family being kidnapped and claimed the FBI without to murder him, promoting worries on the right that he himself had hurt or endangered his own family.

In a mark of how twisted the far the online right has become far right, YouTuber, Jean Francis Gore, whose own wife disappeared under mysterious circumstances in 2023 and was never found. Wondered openly whether chauffeur was smart enough to murder his spouse without being discovered.

Simone Collins: The shade.

Malcolm Collins: Wait, no. Did you fully rock? What just happened? So this guy whose wife disappeared under mysterious circumstances Yeah. And has never been found.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Wondered if this other guy was smart enough to murder his wife without being caught.

Simone Collins: Well, he knows what it takes. So,

Malcolm Collins: oh my God. Poor Elijah Grey asked, does he have the brains to get away with it?

Fortunately,

Simone Collins: yeah. He’s trying to like brand himself [01:04:00] as the new oh my God. If, if it doesn’t fit, you have to acquit. Oh, J Simpson,

Malcolm Collins: OJ Simpson. Yeah. Fortunately, chauffeur’s family members appeared to be safe, but the scandal engulfing him only grew wider. I mean, if my wife died, I would not be making jokes like that, even if it was very mysterious or disappeared.

Right? Like I would be quite distraught given that this only happened like a couple years ago for this guy.

Simone Collins: I dunno, it didn’t take OJ a long time. And then he wrote if I did it,

Malcolm Collins: which, but he did do it. So

Simone Collins: that’s why the victim’s family, I think, I don’t know, took.

Malcolm Collins: Sued and got the book. Book and then they renamed it.

I did it. I

Simone Collins: think they just made the if very small.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: For what? It’s

Malcolm Collins: the word, a right wing provocateur. Milo posted recordings and transcripts on social media on a Tuesday chat that raised questions about chauffeur’s, hypocrisy and mental stability in one. Recording a man sounds very much like Chauffeur, supposedly talks about having a drinking problem.

Another purports to feature Sarah Stock, who for the last year has been [01:05:00] a political commentator, street interviewer, debater, and. Contributor for Rift tv. That recording captures part of the conversation between an unnamed man who is not OUIs and a woman as she describes some sort of sexual relationship with chauffeur.

That began at the Conservative Political Action Conference, presumably in 2025. That woman who Polus claims is stock, said that he had sexual. Encounter with Schafer after he offered her Benadryl and shots of alcohol. Prompting her to black out Opolis is a notoriously shifty figure That said the same audio recordings were also sent to me, not from him, and while I have not been able to authenticate them, neither Schofer nor stock has directly denied them.

No, it seems obvious it’s true at this point.

Simone Collins: Call. We gotta try that. It’s like a good time.

Malcolm Collins: Many of the claims about her were false, but she also apologized for her actions. There were mistakes and unwind decisions I have made that I deeply [01:06:00] regret stock wrote, and I apologize to everyone that has been scandalized by this.

She then deleted her ex account entirely, neither. Stock responded to request for comments. Stock could become a right-wing Catholic influencer after converting to the face less than a year ago. So she converted into it. So it doesn’t even explain why she’s horny all the time. That that doesn’t only makes sense for people.

Theory has broken.

Simone Collins: Well, maybe she’s, you know, she’s a Catholic soul.

Malcolm Collins: Gained some prominence online after she delivered a racist rant during a YouTube debate show featuring liberal commentator Sam Cedar. Since then, she has been a fierce opponent of expert sex denouncing fornication docket. Also a familiar figure to false flag readers because of the drama that started last year when she posted a picture of her engagement ring rival injury.

Oh yeah. Between the diamond, far too small, setting off a vicious round of female MAGA infighting.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that was fun. The girls were fighting

Malcolm Collins: over ring size.

Simone Collins: [01:07:00] Yeah, it was great.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: just pearly things. And

Malcolm Collins: I know they did have a small size, but like my takeaway was, but isn’t her husband a conservative, like, like organizer, like he’s not gonna make a lot of money.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. I mean, but the whole point was like, yeah. Some girls were like, oh, that’s embarrassing. Whereas others were like, that’s your whole, like the whole point is the marriage and, and modesty and how dare you criticize the size of the ring. Do I have to say, Malcolm, when you came. I loved, I loved how I felt with the big engagement ring that you gave me.

That was your mom’s earring. Because I remember it once, it got on an elevator and this guy turns to me and he is like, man, your husband loves you. And I was like, wow. So I understand why the debate took place because I didn’t realize until I received. An engagement ring with your mom’s [01:08:00] rock. That was big.

How much people judge you based on your engagement ring? I wish I could still wear it. My fingers weren’t swollen. Sausages,

Malcolm Collins: her fingers are incredibly swollen because of the cold and her width of anyway.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So stock’s alleged affair with chauffeur ended once she got engaged according to the recording.

But on the MAGA Wright, the widely discussed episode has dented both her and chauffeur’s images as strict moralists. In fact, the brewing scandal has provoked what can only be described as an outpouring of shot and ferer. Both for chauffeur and stock, have made many enemies on the right, in part because of their vigorous moral policing.

The moral police are always the people who are, this is what I. What I was saying and what I really mean when somebody’s trying to police the morality of other individuals, I think it’s very likely that they, like we engage in team sports a bit, or I’ll call out people for specific actions, I think are hurtful to the rights, whiter political goals.

Simone Collins: Well, we’re very open about our own debauchery and flaws. I mean, I don’t think anyone thinks we’re trying [01:09:00] to hide something. We’re pretty, are we that demoed? Well, I mean Okay. By some people’s standards, like we’re very pro porn. We’re very, yeah. Like, we’re very open about like enjoying low culture and anime, anime and anime and video games and anime and

Malcolm Collins: video games, porn, Coors Lights the

Simone Collins: worst of

Malcolm Collins: years.

Simone Collins: I mean, well, yeah. I mean, a lot of my point is. Yeah. Well, what I wonder too is, you know, there’s that whole dynamic of, oh, if your partner is suspect that you’re cheating, they’re probably cheating. Is there, is this kind of the same thing where if someone is heavily criticizing workers, I think that’s

a

Malcolm Collins: good way to stop the behavior, to make that assumption going forward, to be like the only people who do this sort of moral policing, or are people who

Simone Collins: are breaking, who like closeted, moral bankrupt, morally bankrupt people.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, I just think that [01:10:00] like the only person who really like gets angry about this stuff and, and edges on this stuff is people who have done it in the past, you know?

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, I, well, I’m trying to think of the

Malcolm Collins: the people who’ve freaked out about, like, you using IVF or the people who have had secret abortions, right?

Like, it’s always like, whatever you’re doing, but in some way like

Simone Collins: twisted and darker. Well, no, there’s, there’s different, so there, there are people who criticize IVF and who we’ve had fantastic IVF debates about, but then we’re like. Like, that’s sinful. Like do it, but it’s sinful. And I don’t think that they’re secretly like, no, don’t think they’re,

Malcolm Collins: because

Simone Collins: they’re not.

I’m trying to think too about like people who give a lot of what I would say is like etiquette or moral advice and who I genuinely believe stick to it. Like I’m thinking about the Emily. Books that I love so much. Well, this is the thing, moral

Malcolm Collins: advice that is emotionally charged or moral policing that is emotionally charged comes from a plea of insecurity.

There’s no

Simone Collins: reason. Yeah, yeah. When it’s, but it, when it’s logically driven, I think when people are like, Hey, you know, it’s, it’s, I, it’s optimal to do this [01:11:00] because X reason I think then you can kind of trust them. Whereas if someone’s like, look at this disgusting cow, like there’s, there’s something.

There. Yeah. Maybe that’s a good thing. Yeah. Ooh, you know what, another example of this that I see a lot is actually with diet shaming. The, the people that I see online, for example, who have YouTube channels where they do a lot of diet shaming. Are themselves very clearly disordered in their eating and like not, and closeted about it.

So like they themselves have their own like, healthy eating programs and it’s very clear that they’re like incredibly disordered in their, like they both body dysmorphia and very like, poorly handled eating problems. And then they like to go on and critique other people’s things and there’s a whole circle of that.

So I think that’s, yeah, that’s it. When it’s, when it’s emotionally charged, it’s, there’s a red flag.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: like I’m very open about the fact that I’m a functional anorexic and I have zero qualms about it.

Malcolm Collins: Much of the [01:12:00] criticism that has been directed at the PEAR has centered on the fact that stock apparently entered into a sexual relationship with a married man right before she decided to have her own marriage.

Blessed by the Pope.

Simone Collins: Why would you, wouldn’t you like, can you imagine how miserable you’d be having your marriage? Blessed by the Pope Having done all that though. Or maybe not because you just ask for forgiveness

Malcolm Collins: if you don’t believe any of it and you can ask for forgiveness or it

Simone Collins: makes for a really good confessional session, you know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: The priest is like, I can only imagine some like Catholic priest, like, wow, like

Simone Collins: clap, clap, clap.

Malcolm Collins: Like, you are not good at this.

Simone Collins: I don’t know. I could actually, I could model a mindset. Being Catholic, this is not understanding Catholicism very well. Maybe not. ‘cause I, I had a, a college crush on a guy who became a Catholic priest and would ask him a lot of questions about Catholicism as an excuse to talk to him.

And so [01:13:00] maybe I know more about Catholicism than I wanna admit to myself. But I could see a world in which you kind of want something good to bring to confession. Because otherwise the drama of your life gets very boring and like the whole Catholic thing is like the struggle. To become pure and good and clean.

You know, like the whole point is climbing up did not cheat on your husband right

Malcolm Collins: before your marriage is blessed by

Simone Collins: well, but like, where’s the narrative in that? Where’s the confession? Where’s the redemption? Like, it’s all about the hero’s journey, but just again and again and again. And she, you’re not gonna get a hero’s journey if you haven’t.

Sinned. So having a good sin and a good thing to take to confessional and a good redemption arc. So like, maybe that’s what that is all isn’t, I have noticed that Catholics really like stories,

Malcolm Collins: narrative arcs, you

Simone Collins: know? Yeah. So yeah, you need a redemption arc. So sin is okay because you, you can’t really have a redemption arc without it.

Like where’s the suffering? Where’s the toil if you’re just born a saint? Right? And then those who are saints, who just are amazing, go outta their [01:14:00] way. To become martyrs because how else are they gonna go through their suffering of re redemption arc, if not like to be martyrs. Right? So maybe that’s kind of the thing, the thing of,

Malcolm Collins: and I point out when people are like, oh, you criticize people on your show as well?

No, when we criticize people, it’s over strategy. It’s over like. I think that the way that, for example, Bannon has acted in the past was very deleterious to the wider conservative movement, or Ben Shapiro has acted, is deleterious to the wider conservative movement in his individual goals. That’s different from being like, I think Ben Shapiro.

Has a crush on his sister or something. Right. Which a lot of people do. Right. You know, they’re, they’ll say something like that, which is just like a personal, you know, attack or I think that, you know, X person isn’t being chased enough. Right. I, I don’t think so yeah. Anyway, to continue. The TRA stuff is performative Bs and declared MAGA Influencer Emily saves America who had clashed with stock in the diamond sized debate.[01:15:00]

SD Lee Watson Chauffeur’s, former Blaze co-host, who sued the company over his alleged harassment, posted a picture of the frog character peeking through the blind. RIF TV personalities dropped their affiliations with the site listed on their X Accounts. Even an Indian account on X dredged up an old attack chauffeur made on the Hindu, God.

Vishnu declaring that his current S ScandAll vindicated the Hindu pantheon. What? Never on Vishnu. Again, it declared,

Simone Collins: oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Well apparently he’s like anti-Indian. And yet some people were likely, well, this is what I see. Nobody’s really that anti-Indian like. This, the thing is what, sorry, what I mean to say is people can hate Indians taking tech jobs, you know what I mean?

And that they have discriminatory hiring practices Okay. Against non Indians. And those are real and endemic problems in the tech industry. But the problem is, is anyone who’s been personally affected by those issues [01:16:00] also likely has Indian friends. And it’s really hard to like actually hate an ethnicity if you have a number of friends from that ethnicity.

So,

Simone Collins: I don’t know though, when we posted our, our episode about the, the scary demography of India as a country, people, especially Canadians. Oh, they mad. They mad at the Indian. They mad

at,

Malcolm Collins: well, maybe, maybe the immigration levels in Canada. But the immigration levels in Canada have gotten to a level where it’s I mean not just with Indians, but, but partially with Indians.

It is designed to replace the existing population because they, they have such slow fertility rates and they really need to keep the inflow coming in for, for the economic pyramid that is Canada to stay afloat. Well, from the perspective of the politicians at this point,

Simone Collins: we just need to lean more heavily on made, I don’t know what to say.

Malcolm Collins: And what they need is for Alberta to break off and join the us.

Simone Collins: Yeah, come over here.

Malcolm Collins: Let’s, how Canada gets up, gets through without its oil. We’d love to have you guys.

Simone Collins: [01:17:00] The water’s fine. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Not even a year ago at a conservative conference. He did, he did my friend four times in one night. Unprotected while he was married at Walker.

Said at the time. Oh, what? Okay, sorry, I missed this part. And yet some people likely not terribly surprised that Chauffeur was involved in a scandal like this. Back in 2020, sassy right-wing influencer, Christopher Walker accused chauffeur of cheating on his wife at a Republican event, not even a year ago at a conservative conference.

He did my friend, four times in one night, unprotected while he was married. Geez, man, at a conservative conference too, so

Simone Collins: I thought four times in one night it, no, that’s just one night that

Malcolm Collins: it’s too much effort too.

Simone Collins: No, but like, no, I just feel like saying four times, it’s like, no, you’re. What are you

Malcolm Collins: saying?

What means? He was very enthusiastic about the whole thing. Chauffeur had also made numerous strange thirst trap style photos in [01:18:00] recent months. In a November, Instagram post captioned with a message about how much he loved his family. The photo showed him smoking an old timey pipe while wearing an Orthodox Christian Cross, but this was immediately followed by a street.

Steamy shirtless selfie that cut off right above his groin. I’ll spare you the actual image. What?

Simone Collins: Oh, thanks.

Malcolm Collins: I mean this, this, to go to a conservative conference to have this persona and then she shows that the whole thing is just completely fake for him. Everything I

Simone Collins: know. I feel like we’re missing out on something with conservative conferences.

‘cause I also hear about all the, like the, the spike in, gay dating app activity when there’s a conservative, do you think I should go to conservative conferences to hook up with other women? Is that what you’re saying? That’s why I find your sister wise. Well, no, it just seems like everyone’s like hooking up with other women and men are hooking up with men too.

It’s just like men are just swimming in whatever it is they wanna swim in. It’s like, okay, like let’s, let’s go to the, the [01:19:00] sex con, I mean conservative conference. And something’s going on. I don’t know what, but like.

Malcolm Collins: I have been to conservative conferences and I have never been like, this is a great place to hook up.

I’m always like, I gotta network and get on the next big show.

Simone Collins: Well, we, we clearly missed it. I mean, I think this is one of those things where you have to be connected and it’s all about the after parties and it’s not. You know,

Malcolm Collins: well, I mean, yeah, we’re that, this is the thing, our conservative sphere, when I go to the conservative conferences, I’m like, who do, who do I wanna meet up with?

It’s like Curtis, right? Like he’s always fun to chat with at the conferences. He’s always got some fun thing going on. And and, and Curtis Jarvin is not exactly the crazy after party. I, I mean, I’m sure he gets invited

Simone Collins: to, that’s what you think. We just don’t wanna stay up that late.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh yeah.

We were invited to a party at like eight. You and I would be like f that

Simone Collins: we’ve seen him at parties at night and then he’s just getting warmed up and we’re like, goodbye,

Malcolm Collins: goodbye,

Simone Collins: [01:20:00] sleep. Now.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I, I went late,

Simone Collins: the

Malcolm Collins: last conservative event until like a club or something, and that’s where I met. Lord Miles.

Lord Miles Was there,

Simone Collins: was that at the Vegas one or the, my, no,

Malcolm Collins: this is the London one.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay.

Malcolm Collins: God. Are we gonna go to conservative conference? You that

Simone Collins: Lord Miles. I forgot that. Damn. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, to continue. Chauffeur’s downfall isn’t just a personal Shakespearean tragedy, a modern adaptation set to the most idiotic corner of the online hype world.

It adds fodders to the right’s ongoing Civil War Opolis, who plays a sort of my T Trier role in MAGA media. H hates white nationalist podcaster, Nick Fuentes. In the hierarchy of the online right chauffeur is a restless vassal of the far more successful Fuentes, meaning Yoli can undermine Fuentes by going after chauffeur.

No surprise in than in one of the recordings Yoli release. There’s discussion about how Chauffeur quietly talks so much. S-A-H-I-T [01:21:00] about Fuentes out of envy. But the biggest damage may have been inflicted on the online trad brand as a whole conservative podcaster. Ali Buckley complained that the affair demonstrated that women posing as trad wives had become a fetish for right wing men.

Far right commentator Verium, who recently cut ties with chauffeur after being exposed himself for making posts years ago about being gay. Summed it up. It’s all BS he said about the trad lifestyle.

Simone Collins: Ally best. Dang.

Malcolm Collins: Dang. But this is the whole Fuentes sphere. It’s, I mean, as I said, Fuentes is thing, is a larp anyway, and, and like it’s actual lifestyle.

I’ve heard it’s pretty debauched. Like

Simone Collins: I just love that. Milo Anolis is so back. He’s just like dishing all this dirt on

Malcolm Collins: people. Oh absolutely. We gotta, we gotta recruit Milo

Simone Collins: an

Malcolm Collins: for the team

Simone Collins: up Pat fights. I funny, I,

Malcolm Collins: we gotta get Milo Anolis on our side of the conservative movement.

One of our super fans recently asked me, , who is my favorite Catholic [01:22:00] influencer, and I had totally blinked on this because I haven’t watched his stuff in a while, but easily the answer would be Milo.

Malcolm Collins: Like,

Simone Collins: I was just so sad when I heard that he like, wasn’t gay anymore.

‘cause I have this weird bias and I was like, well that means he’s not gonna be fun anymore. I like, I don’t know why I thought that. It’s not like when you choose to not indulge in a certain like element of your sexuality that you just. Cease to be everything else with your personality. But I just thought that, and I was just, I can’t express the relief I felt when it turned out that, no, he’s still hilarious, catty articulate.

Malcolm Collins: But he like disappeared from, I used to love his content. He did. I was so sad too. Yeah. And no, he’s just. He was, he had, this is the thing we’re recently talking with our superfans about, like we do like meetups about like why Fuentes is as popular as he is. And one of the things I said is, it’s one of the big reasons.

It’s probably just that he seems to be happy when he talks about like, well, your friend of

Simone Collins: Fuentes, not Miley and Novelist.

Malcolm Collins: No, I seems

Simone Collins: happy too,

Malcolm Collins: but I was gonna say. Opolis is the [01:23:00] only other conservative that seems as happy as Fuentes.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: he’s in flat. I mean, he’s in his like, controversial. And I think he just did the Nick Fuentes dick much better than Fuentes ever did.

He was like smarter and better at debating. So I’d love to see him get back into the, the game. I mean, I think especially given that his arc now, you know, he actually, you know, went through something and, and challenged a mainstream narrative, which it’s like being same sex attractive. If that’s something you have to make a lifestyle.

So that’d be fun to see. But the broader thing here, and I think you see this is in the online Civil War, I think a lot of people can’t see what is very apparent to a lot of the online, right? Is that the other side, the moralizing side, they’re all faking it. They’re, they’re. Generally Grifters who are saying what they’re saying for the fame.

Mm-hmm. Like, but recently Nick Fuentes has come out and he is like, I love Jeffrey Epstein. Right. So you gotta understand if you think like, oh, Hitler’s good because Nick Fuentes said Hitler is good. He liked [01:24:00] Hitler in the same way. He liked Jeffrey Epstein. Okay. Like, these are equivalent figures to him.

Right. And you gotta realize, oh, oh, maybe he’s just saying whatever he thinks is the most shocking thing he can say is, and he doesn’t have a coherent, larger ideology in the, because there’s no reason to like ge to think Jeffrey Epstein is cool. Like,

Simone Collins: well, where it starts to fall apart is when it’s Hitler and Stalin and Jeffrey Epstein, if you liked.

One or multiple of them. For their

Malcolm Collins: For.

Simone Collins: Yeah. However you them like the odd, controversial all of for their merits. Yeah. And then also just not also simultaneously appreciate other people who are more broadly lauded for their merits shows. A pattern. I just

Malcolm Collins: wish that the mob was better or could more quickly discern when somebody is fake like this, because I think it’s often pretty obvious if the guy got fired for [01:25:00] groping his coworker.

He’s not a traditional family man.

Simone Collins: I don’t think people care about what’s true or fake. I think they care about how people make them feel.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s true.

Simone Collins: So it doesn’t matter. This guy managed to make people feel a certain way. And I think one of the reasons why a lot of these people cast shade is because other people enjoy seeing that happen.

Mild anolis cast shade because people enjoy watching him do it, and he does it really well. So. I, I, it. That’s not, I don’t think that’s the question. I think that the more important question is how can you do this? Even if you’re disingenuous in a way that is sustainable, and maybe part of it involves having to occasionally reinvent yourself like Milo Opolis did.

Mm-hmm. [01:26:00] I think this guy kind of did that when he went from. Groping employees to touting his tra dad lifestyle, and now he’s gonna go for some new redemption arc of, I’ve recovered from, I mean, look at how Jordan Peterson did that. Oh, and I’m recovering from addiction. It’s just that, that these various public figures are able to make these recoveries with varying degrees of success.

Not everyone is able to pull it off. So you can be as fake as you wanna be. It’s more a question of how you manage the narrative and how that narrative makes people feel, and how entertaining it is for people to watch. That makes a lot of sense. You can see this with totally nonpolitical figures as well who show up in various like, you know, snark, YouTube history channels, you know, like from.

Or random YouTubers who have [01:27:00] weird, tragic upbringings as Weeb stars too. I don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: I just, I even, my, the funny thing about me is, is if I made a living moralizing about sexual values and I was at a conservative conference, it’s not even out of morality. I wouldn’t sleep with a random woman there. I wouldn’t do it because I’d be too scared about hurting my career.

Like the, the level of just, oh. Foolishness on display here? Like does he have any self-control?

Simone Collins: I think no. Part of it’s though,

sexuality and sexual impulses are strange things. It’s almost like one of those it’s like a demon that only exists if you give it power and if you believe in it. Mm-hmm. Like if you just. Stop caring about sex, which of course for many [01:28:00] easier said than done, but like it, okay. Look at very conservative Islamic societies, right?

Or even historical societies in, in, in many Western countries. There’s this, you know, collective belief that, oh, like if a woman is uncovered, I won’t be able to control myself. Like of course I will. RAPE her right? Like how I, of it was her fault, you know, she, her, me, I saw her face. And then people do it, right?

Like, but you can’t have that, that, they, they need each other. That, that, that very conservative approach to sexuality and morality is needed. Like, it, it, it, it can’t be justified if you don’t also have this uncontrollable urge. And I think you can’t be this kind of, that’s a really good point, moralizer, if you’re not also like seeing yourself and genuinely believing that you’re constantly tempted because why else would you stand?[01:29:00]

From the high hill of social media and scream out to your followers how important it is to have these values and restrain yourself. Restrain yourself from what I mean for us, it’s like, well, I don’t care. You know, so we don’t need to talk about it ‘cause it’s not a struggle. You need it to be a struggle.

So of course they’re gonna slip because.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, and also if, if, if you’re going out there and he is actually following the rules on something like porn, right? The whole not sleeping with random people is gonna be a lot harder thing. Like another guy might just be like, oh, I’m gonna go back, you know, and goon or something like that.

And he’s like, oh, here’s a, that’s not an option for me, so I’m gonna use a real girl as my owning hole.

Simone Collins: It’s so gross that people live that way. I don’t involve someone else in your non ative sexual activity. I’m, I’m seeing right

Malcolm Collins: now if he, if he had anti-porn

Simone Collins: views. ‘cause yeah, that frigging explains it for me.

He did. [01:30:00] So many people have anti-porn views and I, I only respect a very small segment of them. That, that also believe that non ative sex is a sin. Like I will respect your, your anti-porn views if. That’s what you hold. If you are only having unprotected sex with your spouse, then go back. And you

Malcolm Collins: note here, when we talk about porn versus anti porn, I’m not talking about porn involving real women.

I am, I am not for that.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Because that has negative externalities for the women involved.

Simone Collins: Oh, human, non-synthetic porn.

Malcolm Collins: But like AI porn and stuff like that, I don’t, I don’t see what the negative so yeah, he was anti-porn on multiple instances across social media. He was,

Simone Collins: of course he was.

Malcolm Collins: Of course he was.

Simone Collins: That really feels to me so disingenuous when many people talk about it though. ‘cause it just seems like one of those things that you say, because you know people are gonna be like, yeah, like. It. It’s almost like talking [01:31:00] about the weather in certain circles. Like, man, it’s so cold. I just hate the cold. And everyone’s like, yeah, I hate the cold.

This sucks. Or like, oh, it’s too hot. I’m sweating. Like a what? What sweats A lot. I was gonna say like a horse. Do horses sweat. I you pee like a race horse. You sweat like a pig. Do pigs sweat though, never. Seemed a sweaty pig. Anyway I, yeah, I just, I, I actually think that a lot of people haven’t put really any thought into it, and they may not consume a.

What they consider to be erotic material themselves, especially if they’re women because they read romance and novels and they’re like, I’m just reading literature. It’s fine. I, I’m an

Malcolm Collins: It’s just 50 shades of gray.

Simone Collins: Yes

Malcolm Collins: men and they’re degenerate vanilla. [01:32:00]

Simone Collins: How dare these men read this? I’m gonna read.

Malcolm Collins: No. I love it when women are like, I just watch books about monster effing, but how dare these men watch porn or women are being degraded.

Simone Collins: No, don’t you understand Malcolm, that morning Glory Milking Farm is an anti-capitalist scream. The great intellectual work of our time. God,

Malcolm Collins: you’re amazing.

Simone Collins: Thank you, Malcolm. I love you very much. Welcome. You are fantastic. I don’t know if you saw this morning, Andy was so sweet when I was kneeling down and I was still feeding Tex when I was checking on her, and then she just wants to stand close to me and hold t bottle and feed him.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And help with feeding

Simone Collins: my Turkey.

Malcolm Collins: She knows what’s up. I came to me, he said anyway, I’ll, I’ll say it later.

Simone Collins: Okay. I love these noodles.

Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simon.

Simone Collins: I love you.

Malcolm Collins: Wonderful day.

Simone Collins: You too.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So did I, I blow your [01:33:00] mind. Was that episode

Simone Collins: Yeah, that was

Malcolm Collins: Jeffrey Epstein

Simone Collins: Fricking incredible.

Malcolm Collins: I, no one else found that evidence. I was like, or why? No one else is pointing at that. And they’re all pointing at this like, obviously like doctored images and stuff.

Simone Collins: I, part of me wonders if people involved with the Epstein file releases intentionally waited until AI got, especially generative AI got further along until releasing more files.

Because at this point people are having such a crisis of reality. In terms of what’s real and what’s not. And there are so many AI fakes mixed in with everything that’s being released where people are kind of not caring anymore and they’re like, I don’t know what’s real anymore, so I’m just overloaded and I don’t care.

Well, and I think it does dampen that

Malcolm Collins: well, is creators like nuts and asthma gold, who otherwise, you know, I respect and I see as goals for like our channel. They don’t even Google before they present something. Is this a provably doctored image?

Simone Collins: Well, [01:34:00] you know, the views they, I, I think they view this more as entertainment value and not as, as news reporting.

And then if we pretend to be like, I’m going to give you the facts, we, we try, like we, what we’re doing in our channel is you and I as husband and wife are talking through things that we find interesting and genuinely trying to figure out what we think of reality. So we’re a little bit more focused on trying to get to at least what we want to conclude as our going.

Reality at for any the hypothesis

Malcolm Collins: for

Simone Collins: reality.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Because that’s, but Aspen Gold, and he’s very clear about this is all about the entertainment value. And you know, he’s talked about this in the context of, for example, the Johnny Depp and, and Amber Herd trial where he was just like, I, I farmed that for days.

Like it was great. It wasn’t about truth, it wasn’t about substance. It wasn’t about figuring out something about the world. It was about watching the dumpster fire burn. And you can also see this in his ice coverage. I respect that. And I, I don’t expect him to give me [01:35:00] accurate information. I expect him to give me amusing reactions to things.

And I’m 100% here for it. I love them.

Malcolm Collins: Alright, well we’re gonna do a little bit of that today. Okay. Watching the world Burn.

Simone Collins: Good.

Speaker 6: What happens if he sees the dinosaurs? He like finds all them, type them all. Will he gobble them up? Ooh, I think I have a greater idea, but Titan, you are a shark princess. What if you gobble them up? Oh, no, Titan. Yeah. Do you eat dinosaurs? Yeah, I think I got.

Speaker 7: That makes sense. That makes sense. And so you’ve gotta build the paddock to protect them from yourself. Right?

I have So my mind,

I have to be in, oh no, the T-Rex is looking hungry. [01:36:00] I have set by the mind. Hi them. What are you doing to help avian?

I’m gonna make watch power and my fence so nobody see the dinosaurs. Oh,

is gonna helicopter coming to destroy. Okay. Are the helicopter’s gonna destroy the T-Rex? Yeah, we just made towards these T-Rex two.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

This is the episode’s “smoking gun,” and it’s legitimately intriguing. The post—made around 40 minutes before Epstein’s death was publicly announced—describes him being wheeled out in a wheelchair after a 4:15 a.m. inmate count, with an unauthorized van arriving and no real hospital interaction. The files confirm the poster was Roberto Grijalva, a lieutenant corrections officer at the Metropolitan Correctional Center (MCC) on duty that night. Subpoenas to 4chan, Apple, AT&T, and Citibank traced it back to him via bank and IP records.

What’s wild:

* Grijalva wasn’t some random troll; he was actively doing his job, as evidenced by his August 12, 2019, memo to the warden noting Epstein needed a cellmate (per suicide risk protocols) after his previous one (Efrain Reyes) was transferred out the day before.

* The feds went all-in to ID him (grand jury probe the day after Epstein’s death), but there’s no record of follow-up interviews, charges, or discipline tied to the post. It just... stops. If this was a genuine investigation into leaks or irregularities, why drop it once they found a credible insider?

* Counterfactuals here make sense: If it was a cover-up, they’d want to silence potential witnesses. Grijalva continued at MCC until its 2021 closure but hasn’t worked since—could be a payout, retirement, or something else. No freak accidents reported, at least.

This raises real questions about MCC negligence (or worse). Official probes (2023 DOJ IG report) blamed guards for falsifying logs and sleeping, but the lack of scrutiny on Grijalva feels off. It’s not “bulletproof” proof Epstein’s alive, but it screams active suppression of info. Props to the hosts for spotlighting this—it’s under-discussed compared to flashier theories.[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we’re going to be talking about Epstein and if he is actually dead, as well as some other updates from the Epstein files that we didn’t cover in our last video.

And again, it’s a case of I decided to go into this. I decided to research this, and the claims and evidence I have seen pushed around for him not being dead, like the popular conspiracy theories, the tattoo one, the Fortnite one they’re generally pretty bad as as, as far as evidence goes. Oh. However I found a new one, or it’s not entirely new, but it’s mostly something that it’s not focused on that I think is, is near Bulletproof.

Maybe not that he’s not dead, but that there is an active coverup of something tied to his death. And I would start by by going into that one. Yeah. But before I get to that, I also just wanted to briefly cover. One thing that’s really been annoying me is people keep being like, well, Stephen [00:01:00] Hawkings in the Epstein files.

And it’s like, no, Stephen Hawkings went to Epstein Island for like a big scientist conference thing. It, there is no evidence at all that he was involved in anything sexual there. And like, how do you even broach that with Stephen Hawking, like,

Simone Collins: yeah, in the rig? How do you do it?

Malcolm Collins: Even if you are interested in trying to entrap people and stuff like that, if you get Stephen Hawking to come to your island, just use it for the clout and don’t, you know, risk him because you can’t disappear Stephen Hawking if he turns out to like, not be into this.

Right. Like,

Simone Collins: not be into it.

Malcolm Collins: The, I I, I see no evidence there. Where I do see very strong evidence is Steve Bannon. And if we have time at the end of this, I’ll go into Steve Bannon more.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Because wow. And I’ve always said that he was a complete swamp creature. And some people were like, oh, Malcolm, you should be nicer.

He’s done a lot for the conservative movement. And I’m like, no. He, he functionally hasn’t, he’s actually done a lot of damage to the conservative movement. He’s, he’s probably about as bad as Ben [00:02:00] Shapiro if not a little worse because he has actively prevented some political things from getting done.

Yeah. Just to play his, his swamp game. And he’s

Simone Collins: swamp game.

Malcolm Collins: He seems to be a less ethical person than Ben Shapiro, which is saying a lot. Ben Shapiro, I think is just sort of a weasel, but he doesn’t seem to be like, actively, like, I’m gonna go out and do evil things. Whereas Steve Bannon is more like in the latter category, and we can get to that on the Steve Bannon parts of this.

Simone Collins: So

Malcolm Collins: we

Simone Collins: stopped trying to be nice to people, apparently.

Malcolm Collins: Well, he is never done anything for us, and we’ve been on the scene for a while at this point. You know, I, I don’t, don’t try to rehabilitate, you know, Epstein after you know everything he’s done. How about that? But let’s, let’s go into this, right?

So I’m gonna go into the really. Smoking evidence here. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: So, there is documented evidence of a specific anonymous post, which originated on four chan shortly after Epstein’s death on August [00:03:00] 10th, 2019. Okay? It describes him as being wheeled out of his cell in a medical wheelchair after 4:15 AM inmate count.

Front cuffed handcuffs in the front was a nurse presented, but no triage nurses claiming to have spoken to him, followed up by an unauthorized trip van arriving. The post implies this happened before the official medical discovery of his body at around six 30 suggesting a possible covert extraction or body switch and no meaningful hospital interaction upon arrival.

So you hear this and your initial thought as is.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You’re saying people are, people say he was wheeled out before his dead body was discovered.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. We’re just laying out the initial piece of evidence here.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Somebody anonymously on four chan before he died.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Said he was wheeled out before he died.

Yeah. Now you hear this and you say, okay, it is [00:04:00] weird that somebody knew about this before this was all made public, but

Simone Collins: oh, you’re saying the time they posted it? Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on, hold on. But it’s still just an anonymous four chan post.

Simone Collins: Right. But, but literally before he died, like chronologically in the time of our universe.

On the day he died two hours before he died. Hold on.

So for clarification, this was after he had died, but before that was made public.

Simone Collins: Okay. Go on. Go on.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so the full text as archived, because I wanna get to this. Mm-hmm. Not saying anything after this, please do not try to dox me. But last night after 0 4 1 5 count, they took him Epstein to medical in a wheelchair front, cuffed, but not one triage nurse says she spoke to him.

Next thing we know, a trip van shows up. We do not do medical trips. They take inmates to Monte Friar’s, Rikers North Infirmary, intubate, doubt it. Dead on arrival [00:05:00] equals DOA hospitals do not release information to correction officers in quote. Okay. And so this appeared on the four chan board at, around the time of his death which was about 40 minutes before the public announcement.

But again, that turns out to be irrelevant. So you hear this and you’re like, okay, this could be any of a thousand things until the declassified Epstein files, and this is where this becomes an enormous smoking gun.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: So, and this was as of 2026. We now have this information.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The identity of the person who posted this is Roberto Gal, a Lieutenant Corrections officer at the Metropolitans Correction Center, the MC where Epstein was held.

Oh,

Simone Collins: didn’t wanna be doxed, I feel bad,

Malcolm Collins: right? The files include a subpoena issued by the US attorney, Jeffrey Berman, of the SDNY, the day after Epstein’s death, targeting four Chan, apple, at and t and others to trace the [00:06:00] IP and identify the source investigators subpoenaed AL’S banking and communication records confirming his involvement.

This gives the claim so. Hold on. So what do we now know? Okay. We now know the person who posted this

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Worked as a corrections officer in that facility.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So what else do we know? He is a real individual. Mm-hmm. Who worked at that facility at the, at the MC.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: In New York City. The federal Joe Jeffrey Epstein was held and died in August, 2019.

Mm-hmm. Not only that, but he was on duty during the relevant time period. Mm-hmm. Including the night leading up to Epstein’s death. Mm. But hold on, that becomes more important in just a second.

Simone Collins: Well, we also, because the government freaked out. Right. And then we’re like, who posted this? No.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Right. But it becomes more interesting.

That’s what we haven’t even gotten to, why this is so fascinating and why it’s smoking.

Simone Collins: I’m interested already.

Malcolm Collins: [00:07:00] Now here’s an even crazier thing,

Simone Collins: okay?

Malcolm Collins: So we do from the Epstein files. Get some additional context on this guy.

Simone Collins: Okay?

Malcolm Collins: So he provided statements as part of the MCCs internal investigation into Epstein’s desk, eg.

On guard protocols and events that night, which were released in the 2026 dump. There is, and here’s a really important part, but we’ll get to why it’s important in just a second. There’s no public record of him facing charges. Discipline or further legal action related to the post officials seem to have treated it as part of the broader probe into leads and irregularity regarding the jail, rather than pursuing him specifically, he does not appear to be involved in any Epstein related lawsuits or testimony or searches for his name outside the context.

Mostly turn up unrelated people if you do searches. So, hold on. So they, we do have one other thing from him. So when they were doing the interviews of everyone at the facility,

Simone Collins: okay.

Malcolm Collins: And this appears to be untied to the investigation to tie him to the four chan post. Okay.

Simone Collins: [00:08:00] Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He August 12th, 2019 addressed the warden in Dale in. Was the title passed Information from Special Housing Unit where he describes routine inmate handling details from the day before Epstein’s death in it.

Geral states that on Friday, August 9th, 2019 at approximately 1:50 PM he passed information to oncoming staff Officer Davis, officer Shaki and Officer Joyer specifically, he noted that Inmate Reyes 8 5 9 9 3 0 5 3 was going wa likely a reference to a writ court appearance and might not return.

And that inmate Jeffrey Epstein would need a cellmate upon returning from his attorney visits. So this is incredibly important.

Simone Collins: I thought he was supposed to be by himself.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. He was mandated by court psychologists to always have another person in the cell with [00:09:00] him. And this was also, this was because he was a, an un alive risk.

Simone Collins: I know, but that doesn’t like it seems. I’m not stopping. Like let’s say that I’m, I’m putting someone else’s cell and they’re a little, you know, on edge. I’m not gonna stop them from like, why are you putting that out on inmate? It’s not their job. It’s

Malcolm Collins: in this prison and

Simone Collins: it’s good

Malcolm Collins: protocol to have, you’re less likely to go through the presumably very long process

Simone Collins: given the way

Malcolm Collins: he

Simone Collins: killed them.

Oh. If someone else is there. Okay. Fair enough. Fair

Malcolm Collins: enough. If someone else is there. Yeah. So the point here being is Epstein on every other night had somebody else in his cell.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That person was discharged the night before the unliving happened. Okay. Mm-hmm. And we’ve gotten to in our other video on this, but we’ll cover, give a brief overview all the other irregularities that have already come out tied to this.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The officer who happened to post the post saying Epstein looks like he was wheeled out in a wheelchair right before he supposedly [00:10:00] died.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Also is the same officer who went to the warden and said, Hey, Epstein is supposed to have another person in his cell with him. Why isn’t there someone else in his cell with him?

Simone Collins: Oh, oh, oh.

Malcolm Collins: Basically he was the one person we know for sure was actually doing their job.

Simone Collins: He wasn’t quiet. Quitting in

Malcolm Collins: prison.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Wow. Props to this dude.

Malcolm Collins: But

Simone Collins: they’re mad, mad at him for like making a fuss and posting on four chan, but they’re like, oh. But he’s like the only guy who actually works here. We need to keep him anyway, even though we’re really mad that he leaked this information.

‘cause if he quits, literally no one else will do their job.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the one guy who didn’t appear corrupted or bribed and was actually like, Hey, this is an univ risk. Shouldn’t we be doing something about this? Not just on four chan, but to the warden himself?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. And we have like [00:11:00] records of this from the investigation.

Okay. So this guy, upstanding guy and very shockingly, just in case you’re wondering, he hasn’t died in a freak accident already. Oh, that’s

Simone Collins: good.

Malcolm Collins: But hold on.

Simone Collins: He’s probably on edge right now though.

Malcolm Collins: This is a smoking gun. So this guy, all right, he he, he posts this on four chan.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They. Go like a swarm of angry bees pulling at T records, pulling all the, like whatever records, et cetera.

You know, you have to do a lot to find out exactly where a post came from on four chan.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s,

Malcolm Collins: this was an extreme, they call it

Simone Collins: for a reason

Malcolm Collins: investigation. Right. So they do all of this. Right. And, and, and keep in mind from their perspective, this is just a random post on four chan, right? Yeah.

Presumably the reason they’re doing this, if this is a real investigation, is to find out is this a random person, right. Or is this somebody who might have relevant [00:12:00] information to the case? Alright.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That’s presumably why they’re going to all this effort. Yeah. To find out who posted this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If obviously weren’t true, they wouldn’t be interested, would they?

Malcolm Collins: Well, no. They might be like, oh, did some random kid post this from their basement? Right. Like, okay, the timing was weird. But it could be a troll, it could be somebody outside the facility. It could be somebody who have no idea what’s going on. It could be somebody with a history of pulling pranks like this.

It could be any number of things, right? So I’m an investigation. I want to know, is this somebody with actual information? No. Or is this a random somebody? Right. You know? No, no. And if it’s a random, you know, unreliable person then it can be thrown away. Right. But if it, if it is somebody Right, I would want to do more investigation.

Absolutely.

Simone Collins: So

Malcolm Collins: they go through all this effort, they find out Yes. If somebody was extremely credible information into what’s happening and they never interview him, they never do [00:13:00] any post investigation. It stops right there. The extremely angry hornet’s nest. Trying to figure out how somebody knew information like this beforehand, stopped the moment they found out that this person might have credible information or not just might, would likely have credible information.

There is no, this isn’t somebody who like you know, Bigfoot guy had done a lot of pranks before or something like that. This is quite the opposite. This is the one guy who is trying to get the prison to follow protocol.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Gosh, I, yeah, this is

Malcolm Collins: really

Simone Collins: something.

Malcolm Collins: Now we need to take some counterfactuals.

Simone Collins: Okay?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. What could explain this, okay, why did they not follow up with him? Why did they not interview him afterwards? Why did the investigation suddenly die? The moment they knew the person who posted this had credible information and not just die? It’s like he didn’t face any punitive action. It was just like, it’s [00:14:00] gone.

It’s over. We’re not talking about this. Why? Okay. So few potential things. One is, is that they did have further investigation on him, and those files have just been fully redacted or were disappeared. Plausible. No. That looks really, really bad. Why would you disappear those files if what he told you could have been easily dismissed, right?

Yeah, no. If it wasn’t real, why are those files gone?

Okay. So if, if those files are gone, if we’re in that world, right, that means that Epstein is still probably alive. Or something else really weird happened with his body that they’re trying to cover up. Like he was taken out alive and then killed in another location. Two, what could have happened?

What could have happened is the investigation was actively in on a coverup, right? So if the investigation [00:15:00] was actively in on a coverup, why did they start buzzing around in a spasm the moment it looked like somebody had insight information?

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, because they wanted to silence whoever might have insight information if they had enough information or like a picture or something like that that could blow this open, right?

Mm-hmm. So that part still makes sense. Then they find the guy, they find out either he has no more credible information or they were easily able to blackmail him. ‘cause he hasn’t really talked about this since. Well,

Simone Collins: and has docs to anon continued to work at this corrections facility or not?

Malcolm Collins: Mm, he doesn’t work there anymore, but he appeared to work there for a while after this.

Simone Collins: Do we know what he does now?

Malcolm Collins: Mm, I haven’t gone into it. Didn’t wanna dox him further.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I just, I like I, that would kind of indicate whether he’s been paid off, you know what I mean?

Though. Doc, Dan on your bro, and I’m sorry, we, we don’t wanna

Malcolm Collins: the one, the one honest guy, [00:16:00]

Simone Collins: thet man in the world.

Malcolm Collins: But the, the point that I’m making here

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Is, okay, so we live in a world where the investigation was in on it and was looking to see if they needed to silence anyone found the guy, and then what they were concerned was, was silencing him. Yes. So they didn’t really want any conversation. They have to be on the books.

And so those records were never created in the first place. They were just like, you know, you can’t ever talk about this again.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, in that scenario, it also means something fishy happened and he was either murdered, but even more likely than that, that he was taken out, extracted, alive.

Simone Collins: And now that I’m thinking about it, he, he was the kind of person, I mean, as, as we saw from the e like this Bill Gates email that he sent to himself as like, here’s, like, presumably he sent that Bill Gates STI. Email to himself, assuming that it could work as blackmail in the future. I mean, he was very good on blackmail.

Like in, in, in other cases, [00:17:00] totally unrelated to Bill Gates and other people. He was very, very, very good at getting dirt on people especially like financial and tax related dirt. That would really put them in a bind if they ever crossed him. I imagine he had some damage. Well, Simon, you’d

Malcolm Collins: be very happy to know.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: What happened to this guy? So here’s what we know from the records,

Simone Collins: okay?

Malcolm Collins: He continued to work at the MCC facility until it was closed down in 2019, due to controversy surrounding Ev Epstein’s death. After that, he’s never had a job again.

Simone Collins: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You’re a bro. Like hide.

Malcolm Collins: No, that’s not my takeaway from that.

Simone Collins: What?

Malcolm Collins: He’s gone. Well, he had a good record. It seems that this, the most of the people at the facility were transferred to other facilities. Mm-hmm. It seems that somehow he came into generational wealth. [00:18:00] That’s what I take away.

You don’t randomly just stop working like that when you have as clean a record as

Simone Collins: this guy did. Listen, he was, he would either take the money or get window cancer. What do you want, Malcolm? Yeah. Take the

Malcolm Collins: money. Yeah. I mean, I guess good end for the one honest corrections

Simone Collins: officer. Honestly. Yeah. I’m like, get your bag, sir.

We thank you for your service. You tried. Okay. Now don’t die. You tried. They, they got you. The system is corrupt. You learned your lesson. Enjoy your retirement. Please don’t get off, but, okay. So I could see this now that I’m thinking about it, like Epstein really would have some kind of dead men switch where he is like, listen, I may be in jail, but if I don’t ping into this system.

Every however many days

mm-hmm.

All of your secrets will be, will be revealed. And that enough people with influence and power were able to get him out because they could not afford [00:19:00] for those secrets to get out. I don’t know. What do you think? Like that? I feel like that could be enough to have

Malcolm Collins: an intelligence agency that looks after their own, like,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, I’m sorry, but like, yeah.

This, this whole no man left behind thing. It, it’s sweet and they try sometimes, but people don’t care. Like people double cross and screw people over all the time. Way

Malcolm Collins: crazy. These leaks. I haven’t, I haven’t looked to confirm this one yet, but did you know that he. You know what? The kava is the really famous Muslim thing that they all do their prayers and walk around and it’s got the rock inside in Mecca?

Simone Collins: No. So it’s a pilgrimage site.

Malcolm Collins: It’s the most famous Muslim pilgrimage site.

Simone Collins: It’s, I thought Mecca was the most famous Muslim pilgrimage

Malcolm Collins: site. It’s in Mecca.

Simone Collins: Oh, it’s the, it’s the thing you see in Mecca

Malcolm Collins: when you go to Mecca. It’s the main thing you

Simone Collins: see. So like, it’s, it’s the Cinderella’s castle of, of Disneyland, of, you know, and

Malcolm Collins: Mecca.

There’s like a little boxy, square boxy thing that people walk around.

Simone Collins: I’m so, it’s such a blind spot for me. I’m sorry.

Malcolm Collins: It’s literally the most sacred thing in Islam. So [00:20:00] anyway,

Simone Collins: when you said kava, I thought like, oh, isn’t that like a fast casual Mediterranean restaurant? Sorry. He made

Malcolm Collins: Well, the fans love you because they say that you help establish facts that like the normal fan doesn’t know either.

Simone will change it. I

Simone Collins: just pooped face.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so he paid the Saudi Arabian government, it looks like, for a part of the cava to use as a rug for part of its covering.

Simone Collins: Oh, wait, wait. He like, what? Epstein.

Malcolm Collins: Epstein literally was on the cover. An extremely sacred Islamic artifact.

Simone Collins: I mean, he also, from my understanding of all the coverage contributed to the foundation of four chan.

This guy knew how to troll, so I gotta, you gotta respect that. He, he did some atrocious, horrible things. He also trolled

Malcolm Collins: yeah. So we’ll be that’s, I mean that [00:21:00] is, well it is, it is a sac sacrilege to an entire, I mean, talk about You wanna get

Simone Collins: back? Yeah. I honestly don’t know how he could have actually done something so sacrilegious though, like, how do you even get access to that?

Malcolm Collins: He bought it from the Saudi Arabian government, from the Crown Prince.

Simone Collins: Would they? Sell that though

Malcolm Collins: to if he had contra bought on them? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Oh. Oh my gosh. I’m sorry. Gimme

Malcolm Collins: by the way, on the evidence for the, pizza of the Keisha, the black and gold embroidered closet. It covers the Kaba and Mecca. In 2017, a shipment arranged through private contracts in Saudi Arabia, in the United Arab Emirates, emails in the files detailed logistics, including coordinates by Emirati businessmen.

I will not be able to pronounce these names with items labeled as picture frames or artwork to transport via British Airways Cargo from Saudi Arabia to Epstein’s residence in Florida and the Virgin Islands. The pieces included one from the Kaba inner lining, one from the used exterior covering and one unused [00:22:00] fragment made of the same material.

A shipping invoice valued them at approximately $10,980, which some reports online that’s, that’s no way though. It would’ve cost way more than that. Yeah, this, he clearly had contra mount on somebody and they shipped him part of the holiest site in all of Islam. That is absolutely wild. That is, that is completely wild.

Okay. So, to Simone’s earlier question about policy bureau of Prisons, BOP policy at the time required high risk inmates like Epstein, who had attempted Unli weeks earlier to have a cellmate as a safeguard. Even after he was removed from the UN Alive Watch lift on July 30th, Epstein’s previous cellmate, Efrin Rays was transferred out that day, leaving him alone overnight.

A key factor in the DOJs, that leader criticism for MTC stash negligence. Wait, he had attempted Unli before?

Simone Collins: Yeah. That was never clear to me why he was seen as a risk at all, because I [00:23:00] hadn’t heard some story about him making attempts or showing signs of serious depression. But maybe it was, this was a long time ago.,

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I’ll, I’ll do the other suicide attempt first. So, there is evidence that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in an incident in 2023, 2019, 18 days before his death that federal officials investigated and described as an unli attempt.

He was found unresponsive in his cell at the MCC in New York. Lying in a fetal position was marks and bruising on his neck from what happened to be a noose fashion from an orange fabric or a bedsheet. Prison. Guards were performed CPR and he was briefly hospitalized before being placed on, on a Liveing watch for 31 hours.

Why hasn’t this been talked about? More. However that is theory denied. It was an unli attempt and instead accused his cellmate at the time, former police officer Nicholas 10 James, who was facing murder charges of assaulting him during a quote unquote experiment or prank [00:24:00] involving a rope or claws around his neck.

Whoa, that is sketchy. A former police officer was with him in his cell and didn’t stop him from attempting to unli himself, and Epstein said, he’s the one who did it. How did I not hear about this? And so, in interviews with psychologist, Epstein repeatedly stated that he had no suicidal ideation describing suicide as crazy and against his Jewish face.

And he claimed he could not be an incident due to,

Simone Collins: so he, someone attempted to murder him in his cell.

Malcolm Collins: That’s what it looks like. Yeah. Well, specifically a former cop. Mm-hmm. I, I just hearing about this now in this investigation. Okay. To continue. Maybe that’s why he, he was so eager to get out quickly.

He’s like, I can’t stay in here anymore. I gotta call the the bros. Let’s go to the Fortnite theory. Okay? This theory is unfortunately, maybe strong, maybe not as strong, so let’s go over [00:25:00] it. All right. So there’s been some pictures that have come out. The files include a receipt titled May 7th, 2019 which show a 25 95 charge for V bucks on Fortnite.

Now this was about three months before Epstein’s death. VBU are Fortnite in-game currency. Wait, was Epstein out of jail at that time?

Okay. So he was free at that time. Okay. I was just checking if, if we could confirm that this wasn’t made by Epstein, but it appears possible that it was made by Epstein.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: So, one, we know that Epstein did there, somebody using his card did pay for Fortnite stuff. Right. It, it could have been one of his staff, but somebody paid for Fortnite stuff.

Simone Collins: Right. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And, and we do know Epstein was a rabid gamer of the type of games like this. So it’s completely within every caricature we know of Epstein, that he was a, a rabid Fortnite player

Simone Collins: an avid Fortnite gamer,

Malcolm Collins: rabid. Okay,

Simone Collins: fine.

Malcolm Collins: So, separately the documents reveal Epstein’s YouTube username [00:26:00] was littlest Jeff one connected to his email giv [email protected].

This account is,

Simone Collins: okay. Can someone explain to me why people just add numbers to their name? When is this ever Okay. Like, sorry. Like even little as Jeff won can me like, sorry, go on.

Malcolm Collins: So, online sluice then went to Fortnite to see if they could find a player with the name littlest. Jeff won. Right. And they did.

And if you look at this player, there’s a lot of very interesting things about it. For example the one time that this player did not play any Fortnite was during the period in which Epstein was in jail. Other than that, it played a ton of Fortnite, both right after he died and before was jailed. So that does not look good.

Here’s the problem with this theory,

Simone Collins: okay?

Malcolm Collins: It’s [00:27:00] that Epic Games. Fortnite developer quickly addressed this on x This was a ruse by a Fortnite player. A few days ago, an existing Fortnite account owner changed their username from something totally unrelated to littlest Jeff.

One following the revelation of littlest Jeff, one as the name on Epstein’s name on YouTube. So here’s the problem with that.

Simone Collins: Okay?

Malcolm Collins: And we’ll go over it because we’ll go over the the, the details of this. Okay? One, if it is true that Epstein was not this other account, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Why don’t they release his real account name?

Like we still don’t know what his real account name was. And so if they could just release his real account name, it’d be very easy to see that he hadn’t been on this for a while. Right? Too if you look at the like, go back, whatevers

Simone Collins: the way back machine,

Malcolm Collins: the way back machine as some people [00:28:00] did you could find it, you could find it under that name.

Simone Collins: Little less. The

Malcolm Collins: problem is, is that thing on the way back machine disappeared in real time, basically, while s sleuth were looking at it.

Simone Collins: So they’re like, the page is loaded and then it just disappears. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So we don’t have strong evidence there of whatever the heck that was. We just know that some people say it could be doctor images that the way back machine said that.

I personally w would to the, the, the, fortnite lead, I’m gonna have to say low probability. The reason I say low probability is Epic Games quickly. Doing a confirmation like this is a pretty big thing to do, especially given that Epstein files are constantly being released and they could be in them next if they are a [00:29:00] hearing from somebody that they need to hide this.

You know, it seems like the forces that are trying to get the Epstein stuff out there are having more and more success as time goes on. Yeah, I would not stick my neck out like that if I was them. So on that front, I just, I don’t know, I just, I don’t see it as that much of a smoking gun, given that anyone can choose one of these account names.

And then two there’s a, a, a two-parter here. We only know of him using this account name on YouTube. I haven’t seen, I’ve heard that he used it in other places. I’ve seen no evidence that he’s used it in other places. That being the case, you have to ask yourself, as Simone pointed out, he called himself littlest Jeff one.

Right. Usually when somebody’s choosing like a standard username, what they’ll do is they’ll choose something like littlest Jeff and then they’ll put one at the end of it. If there happens to be another littlest Jeff within that platform,

Simone Collins: which is so stupid,

Malcolm Collins: I know you don’t like it, but some people really have like one name that’s like their name.

So when they’re doing Warcraft, if there’s another littlest Jeff and they [00:30:00] want to

Simone Collins: talk to No, then they do the real Donald Trump, the real

Malcolm Collins: little sh yeah. And that, and then you run out of things. ‘cause then everybody starts doing the re and then

Simone Collins: the numbers is, is worse. There’s, there’s zero. And he was.

He was a Jew, so he was a word cell. So he would’ve been cool with that. That’s, I don’t know. I just feel like, and he was, he like was a performative intellectual. He, he used himself internally. The probably

Malcolm Collins: put littlest, Jeff won in the account on YouTube that there was already a littlest Jeff account.

Right. If he, if he had other little as Jeff’s accounts, it is probably likely they wouldn’t have been labeled one, they would’ve been labeled either little as Jeff or the littlest Jeff. And then whatever number comes after that. Right. Now, even if that’s not the case, that’s one thing that I find suspicious about this.

But even if that’s not the case, it’s also important to note that we have literally zero evidence which is actually surprising to me given that if he is this much of [00:31:00] a, a Fortnite fanatic mm-hmm. That he ever claimed or in anything seemed to show that he had the Fortnite account. Little as Jeff won.

Now, there is one pushback you could make on this.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Why was he kicked off of Xbox?

Simone Collins: I don’t rem. Oh. Because he used the N word. No. ‘

Malcolm Collins: cause he was his sex offender. That might be why he hid what his Fortnite name was and why. We have no confirmation of it anywhere else in the documents. ‘cause he was afraid of being kicked off for being a sex offender.

Simone Collins: Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. Why did I not think of that? And what, why would I think that the n wordss gonna get you kicked off for,

Malcolm Collins: I think he might have also been kicked off of something for saying the N word. I just wanna be clear that that was the main reason.

Simone Collins: I don’t know, but like, I don’t know if you get kicked off a platform with chat for using the N word or the f slur word or other things.

It, it [00:32:00] just, I, I, I don’t know. I feel like you’re gonna get kicked off if you don’t use those terms. Unless things have gotten that bad online. God, I hope not. Yeah. Is trash talk dead Anyway,

Malcolm Collins: so, now let’s talk about some of the other leaks that people have gotten crazy about.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The blurry orange picture that came on the, the cell, like the camera images from the, the MCM and I see this as literally irrelevant.

It does not matter. I understand that it wasn’t in some of the reports, but I could have easily missed this. You could have easily missed this. A person could easily be like, that just looks like a prisoner and a guard, which is what it looks like. So, I’m not, I’m, I, I don’t, I don’t think, yeah.

Simone Collins: Until we actually get enhance, there’s just nothing we can do.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So next .

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Let’s go to the ear one, because the ear one is one of the ones mm-hmm. Where when you do your own research

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: As I don’t understand why other [00:33:00] people don’t do this. It looks a lot a a lot less suspicious than it looks at first.

Simone Collins: So to give context, people were comparing pictures from Epstein’s alleged corpse when he died and his ear in normal times. And were comparing the ear shapes and saying, this is not the same ear. Right.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And they do look nothing alike in the pictures that you see going around on X.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And for people who are not familiar with this, this used to be the way that they did fingerprinting was ear shaped because it’s incredibly unique.

Was,

Simone Collins: yeah, it was a very unique identifier. For example, a very high profile example of this was when the Romanoff dynasty had been, you know. Murdered, but people thought that Anastasia was still alive when New Pretenders who said, I’m Anastasia, I am a Romanov. They would compare their ears and be like, ah, but don’t you see there is no resemblance.

[00:34:00] And yes. So this is now they’re just going back to this.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So let’s go to what some, some people are saying on X about this. Okay. There, because a lot of people are just like, well, you know, you change sayings on your body change shape as you die. Right?

Simone Collins: Right. You think swell things recede. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. So when one person is acknowledging that, and then he goes, yet the cartilage flattening on the nose makes no sense. The cartilage in the ear should be shrinking back. Makes no sense because we’re seeing that the nose actually seems to puff up in these pictures rather than down right into a shape that is, and I’ll note that the nose is, is gonna turn out to be more important than the ear in just a second here.

Simone Collins: Oh

Malcolm Collins: boy. Another person says there are a lot of changes that begin to show almost immediately. The ear thing is incredibly odd, though the folds creases in our ears are as unique as fingerprints after death. The lobes construction retract the creases, however, would remain the same. They are cartilage and it would take a minimum of 24 hours to make a change of the kind of that kind.

Aside [00:35:00] from color, the ears of a post-motor photo are not the same as Epstein’s. Here. We have one person, w Davis Merit, md. Wow. I am an ear and nose and throat surgeon. I operate on ears. Those ears are not from the same person. He says, I cannot attest to the source of validity of the photos.

But all it takes is a hair sample from one of his houses or a prior specimen from surgery, and then a dete, DNA test of a specimen of the corpse. Which of course we’re not going to get. So what I immediately tried to do when I saw all of this, ‘cause I was like, yeah, that those ears clearly do not look the same when you draw those little images on them, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. People were like putting the ears into Ms Paint or whatever. And then just tracing over the

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But even without the images that are sort of traced on them I, I can just look at the two without the images and I like that they include the two without the images and then be like. Those look like different ears.

So yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I dug into winded ears change, how do they change through our lives, et cetera. And the bigger change that could have happened [00:36:00] isn’t post death, but as changed.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So I then said, okay, that picture they’re using a for comparison looks pretty young.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So can I find a picture that looks from around the same, or at least later, A

Simone Collins: cute, clever girl.

Speaker: Clever girl.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: So the best image I have found for this, unfortunately has some images over his ear, but you can still kind of see it if you look on compare the ear in that image to the ear of the cadaver.

You see, it looks much more similar. The, the thing that I’m really looking for in the ear is if you look at that little weird dangly bit that he has Yeah. The

Simone Collins: ear doodle

Malcolm Collins: one is, is the weird dangly bit that he has that doesn’t appear to be in the Epstein alive photo or as, [00:37:00] as clearly Oh,

Simone Collins: ears are weird.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. And the other is the little out, out bit at the front of it, right? Yeah. The problem is, is that the other images of him that are as old, this ear, the one with the, the money sign in front of it does have the dangly bit looking small like that. And it does have the the extrusion on the other side looking similar.

Simone Collins: Yeah. His ear doodle is, yeah. ‘cause the, in, in, if you’re looking at the cadaver versus young image of him, his ear doodle is super long when he is younger. And then it got shorter. And if you look at the, the other old picture that Malcolm dug up, his ear doodle is shorter. Yeah, it’s not long. Much more. And then if you, the other one, so at the age, ski doodle shortened,

Malcolm Collins: this is, this is one of him in the red sweatshirt

Simone Collins: okay. Now, oh yeah. That’s a short ear doodle.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: That

Malcolm Collins: looks almost exactly like the cadavers.

Simone Collins: This ear doodle got way shorter.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. People were just being silly. They were just getting old photos.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They’re just

Simone Collins: not

Malcolm Collins: looking at more modern [00:38:00] photos

Simone Collins: and actually look at his nose too. No,

Malcolm Collins: no, but his nose is harder to explain his nose. When he’s dead does look genuinely different from his nose in either of these.

Simone Collins: No, no, no, no.

His, his, his nose looks more rounded in, in the red shirt photo. So the, the difference why

Malcolm Collins: more rounded

Simone Collins: for those who are, who are listening the, the difference is pointed out in his nose was he had a much more rounded, we’ll say, chewy looking nose when in, in the dead cadaver video. Whereas in the younger photo and the comparison photo used by the conspiracy people, it looks very straight.

It’s very straight nose. But when you look at a, a, a later age red sweat shirted photo of Jeffrey Epstein, he does have a little more of a curve to the top of his, his nose, I think. Yeah, I think my, which would make sense, I think like what noses and ears get bigger ish when you grow grafts because other parts of your body recede due to collagen loss, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, basically I see this one [00:39:00] as. Possibly something to look into, but

Simone Collins: I don’t, no, I’m, I’m calling it, I’m, this is labeled nothing Burger in my mind I find

Malcolm Collins: well, actually is very important because if that is the cadaver of Jeffrey Epstein, it means that the cop who said he saw him being wheeled out in a wheelchair was wrong.

Because this was taken in, in the facility, right? So, it would mean that they may have had, and this is where it gets interesting, ‘cause I didn’t know this

Simone Collins: unless, unless they wheeled them out in a wheelchair and then, I’m sorry. We were just wa watching Apothecaries diaries last night and someone took a mysterious potion that made them appear dead so that they could escape from a certain situation.

It’s, it’s not implausible that they put him into some kind of coma that made him appear dead. What, what I would say is

Malcolm Collins: if this operation was done as well as everyone thinks it’s done, they didn’t have just a random. Body match. They probably had something that looked a lot closer to him,

Simone Collins: or they really, really, really heavily sedated him like they did wheel him out in a wheelchair [00:40:00] at that time.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe. Well, no, no. The official narrative is they didn’t wheel him out in a wheelchair. If he was actually wheeled out in a wheelchair, that means something really fishy happened. ‘cause all the official narratives say that didn’t happen.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But the four chan guy did. And that was the most compelling thing you surfaced.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But if he’s right, that means that there was never a cadaver in the MC Oh, he said this happened before all of this. So he couldn’t have been in the M mcc C for these pictures. It would have to be a fake body. But the other interesting thing is that police admit there was a fake body.

Simone Collins: Wait, wait, what?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we haven’t gotten to that yet. We’ll get to that in just a second.

Simone Collins: Sorry. Wait.

Malcolm Collins: I keep learning things. I’m like, wait, what?

Simone Collins: Why are people so stuck on like. These other loops when there’s this to talk about what you’re, you’re running this right away, right? You’re not gonna sit on this episode? No. I’m not gonna sit on this. This is, [00:41:00] I wanna share this, your friends. Okay.

Thanks. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: so you’re excited to see people’s

Simone Collins: reaction to this. I wanna see yes. How like. What else are we missing? I just, okay, let’s go, let’s go. Tell me. Go, go, go, go. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: so the other one is the tattoo that he had a barbed wire tattoo on it. And it’s so funny, if you ask an AI about this, it’ll go like, oh no, this was debunked by the, the morticians report and the, the Chief Medical Examiner’s report, and I’m like, if the conspiracy is true, of course they didn’t see it.

The conspiracy is that it wasn’t on the body, right? And it’s in older photos. And not just, well,

Simone Collins: what if he got, what if that was a temporary tattoo?

Malcolm Collins: There is a claim that in a 2017 deposition excerpt where Epstein is asked, quote, the tattoo on your arm of barbed wire, and he allegedly responds, yes, here’s the problem.

This deposition excerpt is not in the Epstein files [00:42:00] and I cannot confirm it as authentic at all. It appears to be entirely fabricated. Then there is a picture purportedly showing Epstein bare chested with the tattoo on his arm. There are two problems with this. One is, is that it is confirmed as an AI generated image, and the second is is that it looks like an AI generated image.

If you look at it the, where the tattoo is on his arm looks very, very smooth. Mm-hmm. While the rest of his body is very, very hairy. And that would be harder for AI to replicate is hair on top of a tattoo. Mm-hmm. Whereas if it was going to try to put a fake tattoo on his arm, it would have it look smooth.

And then three, the reason I really don’t believe this is, this would be something that would come up. Everywhere in the records. If he had a tattoo, this would be noted When he’s put into prison, this would be noted when he goes on trial, this would be noted every time he goes to the beach. Yet we have a single photo of this tattoo.

Not multiple [00:43:00] photos. Not

Simone Collins: also, this is not the tattoo that Epstein would get.

Malcolm Collins: It’s also not the tattoo. Epstein would get

Simone Collins: like, it. It, yeah. Like I would, this is, this is like the, the male version of a tramp stamp. I don’t,

Malcolm Collins: you tell me you had like a Zelda tattoo or something. I’d believe it, right?

Simone Collins: Like, yeah.

Or some stupid, you know, religious imagery, some kind of triangle. I would Latin

Malcolm Collins: word or something,

Simone Collins: or, yeah, exactly. But like, you know, or, yes. A wire. Come on guys. Famous quote. No, yeah. No, I’m sorry, but like, yeah. That that ain’t it is real. It’s

Malcolm Collins: not just a bad hoax. It’s like a poorly thought through

Simone Collins: battle.

I know. Come on. Like, choose better and just find any stupid quote or like philosopher that he refers to in any email ever, and just take a quote from them and change it into Latin and put it on his body. But don’t anyway. Yeah, you’re right. I think that’s a, a very good analysis. I, I concur, sir.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And note here, we’re not going over the, the stuff like the inconsistencies was [00:44:00] hanging and everything like that.

You’ve gotta go to our other video on Epstein. I’m not gonna waste fans’ time to have already gone through our analysis of the missing photo time because there was missing minutes. There was, and it appears Simpson. There is a further edited out time. Yeah. Which I might cover briefly here. I’ve covered the doctor’s reports but if this theory is true.

Pretty much everything tied to the other theory was specifically what Epstein wanted us to think. He specifically wanted the debate to be about whether or not he was murdered. So people weren’t asking, is he still alive?

Simone Collins: All right. So yes, the, the doubt was meant to be around how he died, not whether he died.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: Okay. Smart. Cool.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: Misdirection, classic magicians trick. Look over here while I put poem something. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: We also talked a lot about the guards in that video.

Simone Collins: Which

Malcolm Collins: again, could be relevant to this, could not be relevant to this.

Simone Collins: Wow. Wait. No, but go on [00:45:00] the, the, the bo the fake body.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Can

Simone Collins: you talk about the fake body?

Malcolm Collins: The first public report came at 8:45 AM e via a BBC news reporter, Aaron T’s tweet. There appears to have been a report of Jeffrey Epstein’s death at a Manhattan Hospital, ABC’s main account, followed at 8:59 AM ET. This puts the four chan post. So this was the four chan post. 38 minutes to 40 minutes ahead.

This was what I was talking about earlier.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: The other element you mentioned is a leaked New York Times photo from August 10th, 2019, showing Epstein on a gurney being wheeled into the hospital. His face is visible, uncovered, appears to be somewhat pinkish, and there’s no body bag leading to theories that he’s alive or the scene was faked.

This ties to broader body thought, conspiracies. The photo was taken by paparazzo or bystander outside the hospital, admitted media frenzy. Epstein was transported alive or recently deceased for the official procurement. So standard protocol might not require full covering if recitation [00:46:00] was ongoing, or it just ended recently.

2026 DOJ files released reveal a twist. Jail officers had allegedly staged a quote unquote decoy operation to sneak the real body out. Later, they used boxes in sheets to mimic a body, loaded it into a white van, labeled medical examiners to distract the media while the actual body was moved discreetly via another exit.

This was to avoid paparazzi capturing graphic images, but it backfired by sparking more suspicion when the details leaked. And so the photo of him without his face being covered and looking alive ish or pinkish is a real photo. We do know that, but people say, oh, it’s plausible. But then the thing is, it’s like, okay, but they’re already saying they had a fake.

Right Now we know the fake wasn’t made to look exactly like Epstein. But now I’m thinking, well, okay, so let’s assume the first cop is right. Right. And this was actually a real coverup. That would mean that the fake was made to look exact. They had [00:47:00] a two fakes. They had one that was like a very obviously fake, a bunch of boxes under sheets, and then the other that was a more detailed representation of Epstein or a cadaver made to look like him,

Simone Collins: or just, I mean, like a prosthetic body or whatever, like a fake body.

You can do that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. This was a thing that, that’s new to just the missing minutes. So additionally, metadata analysis of DOJs release files indicates a larger edit, nearly three minutes, specifically two minutes and 53 seconds were trimmed from one of the source clips just before the jump, shortening the original from four hour 19 minutes to exclude the footage at 11 58 58 mm.

This video also appears to be a screen recording rather than a raw export with visible cursor menus on the screen at times, allowing for post-processing. Now attorney Pam Bondy stated that the 2025 was missing a minute due to a [00:48:00] nightly reset, except now there’s additional missing time on top of that minute,

Simone Collins: well, it’s the second nightly res reset, and then there’s the 11 Zs and then the lunch reset.

And then

Malcolm Collins: however, this has been contradicted by multiple sources. A high level government insider familiar was the investigation told CBS news that there was no such reset and that the DOJs Inspector General IG report from 2023 makes no mention of any missing minute or nightly gaps. Comparison to footage from other nights as analyzed by media investigators do not show simpler resets or cuts raising questions about why that specific night has these anomalies.

Now note here, these anomalies do something else that was always confusing for me.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So they had two minutes and 53 seconds to get him out. And those two minutes and 53 seconds occur at around midnight, right at around 1158. Okay?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So that’s really not enough time to strangle someone. If somebody was gonna go into his cell and set up a fake strangulation and then sneak out on [00:49:00] time I was like, that’s really cutting it clo, like not just cutting it close, but just difficult, right?

Like,

Simone Collins: well, can, I mean, can you just snap the neck?

Malcolm Collins: Right, but you still had to set it all up. Remember, he hung himself in this really weird way.

Simone Collins: Elaborate. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He had to like, put additional pressure because he didn’t actually have enough space to hang himself. Mm-hmm. And some people are like, you couldn’t even do it.

Like that. Note here, if you wanna get into all the stuff about the, the way his, his bones broke, that seems implausible. For a, a hanging or the, the directionality of the rope that seems implausible. Go to our prev previous video on this. Um mm-hmm. Like really you’re gonna get almost no overlap between the two videos ‘cause we’re covering totally new ground here.

But

Simone Collins: that’s our service to you is based camp.

Malcolm Collins: We respect your time. But that stuff required time to set up. Yeah. That, that unique hanging strategy that he was using, right? That, that would certainly, you have to first kill him.

And he died of asphyxiation. Even though he had the the damage to [00:50:00] his bones. It wasn’t like they broke his spine. That would’ve been very easy to check, right? Mm-hmm. So he died of asphyxiation at the very least. So that takes time. That doesn’t happen instantaneously right now, suppose he was actually alive, though.

Three minutes seems perfectly plausible to open a cell door and escort a somebody who, who is interested in going with you, and then setting up a, a body double. That’s

Simone Collins: true. That’s,

Malcolm Collins: that’s much more plausible for a three day gap. The old

Simone Collins: Indiana Jones switcheroo,

Malcolm Collins: the Indiana Jones switcheroo.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So.

That is, that is not good for them. And also the timing is interesting here. The fact that that happened at midnight. Mm-hmm. You know, they didn’t find out about him being gone like dead and, and, and begin to act on all this, I think until around 5:00 AM. Yeah. And the other guy said he saw him being wheeled out at around 4:30 AM mm-hmm.

So if you helped him sneak out at [00:51:00] midnight mm-hmm. And then you took him somewhere, stashed him, changed the way he was dressed or something like that, got him in a wheelchair. I can see that. Taking a few hours, you know, waiting on like gaps in patrols and stuff like that. Then you wheel him out and that aligns was the time windows that we’re seeing here.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Securing transport and everything. Or possibly even getting, I don’t know, like the molds to make the mask of the body that you’re putting in. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know. But yeah, there, there’s stuff to do when you’re switching out. People.

Malcolm Collins: The final conspiracy chain that we’ll pull on here is, did anything weird happen with his body?

So, well, oh, there’s also the fact that the scene wasn’t maintained and treated as a, as a crime scene in the way it should have been maintained, really suspicious. But we see a lot of, you know, stuff from, from these sorts of individuals. Then there’s body handling irregularities. I, Epstein’s body was claimed by a quote [00:52:00] unquote unidentified associate, later revealed to be his brother marked and buried in an unmarked grave and the cell may, and the, and the cell was not treated at a crime scene.

No full inspection. Hospital log show pronouncement at 7:36 AM but some claim, minimal staff involvement including the one very verifiable claim from the guy who disappeared. Not disappeared, but seems to not need a job anymore. Hmm. So I found this interesting, the brother claim, I was like, well, if his brother was in on all this, it appears he was, see if he hired the additional, like, okay, so this is, let’s assume we’re in the world where he’s still alive.

Simone Collins: Okay?

Malcolm Collins: He get brother to hire a investigator and have the investigator tell everyone, no, this was a murder, not an un alive.

And then that controversy prevents anyone from asking the other question, which is, is he still alive? And so I was like, well then it doesn’t matter if his brother says that he was the unidentified person who picked up Epstein. That doesn’t matter ‘cause his brother’s in on the whole thing, right? But it turns out that there’s a lot of court documents and all of this.

So the fact that his body was picked up by un unnamed associate [00:53:00] isn’t that big a deal. I mean, I’m still like, why does the brother want to be an unnamed associate? Everyone’s gonna eventually find out it’s his brother. Right? And it’s not weird to pick up your brother’s court, even if your brother’s like a mass murderer.

Who else? Somebody’s gotta pick it up, right? The

Simone Collins: endless family. Yeah. I mean, he

Malcolm Collins: is the logical choice here. There is a very interesting chain here about him trying to get in with Putin. But it appears,

what

Simone Collins: does this have to do with his death?

Malcolm Collins: It could be how he had the means to escape prison.

But I, I’m honestly not seeing smoking gun, like with the Putin stuff, it’s more sort of pathetic. ‘cause it seems that Putin blew him off for a long time, even though he clearly had good contraband on people. Putin’s like, I don’t know. I don’t wanna, I don’t want to get involved with that Epstein guy.

Do you mean

Simone Collins: come from that?

Malcolm Collins: Whatever you want to call it, sweetheart. I don’t speak, but anyway. So you

Simone Collins: don’t speak call me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I don’t speak that calm tongue. Eventually does seem to [00:54:00] have been working with him, but that can be for separate video. ‘cause we’re going long here. We can also talk about the Steve Bannon weird attempt to, gentrify Epstein’s reputation after

Simone Collins: gentrify.

Malcolm Collins: Everyone knew he was a, a child predator.

Simone Collins: To d degen him.

Like, I don’t even get what Bannon was thinking. , It’s, it’s not like Epstein got caught with say, like, vosh stuff, like weird, furry or horse whatever, , porn or something, or some weird hint high. , Which is one of those things where it’s like, yeah, it’s weird, but like I can understand you feeling bad for the guy and wanting to rehabilitate him.

, . It was actual children, you know, like real human beings. And Bannon knew this. And then he also was sex trafficking. And Benon knew this, and like Benin’s takeaway was, [00:55:00] yeah, why don’t I spend a lot of money putting together like a professional full length documentary trying to rehabilitate your image within like the American Rights specifically because that’s Bannon’s audience.

What? Why? Excuse me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That was not necessarily awesome. So anyways, Simone but I’ve always not liked what Steve Bannon represents. He, he literally feels like a, a deep state bureaucrat type. He’s, he is the deep state of the right.

Simone Collins: Oh, so that’s why you call him a swamp creature. I was like, I don’t know. You’re mixing metaphors the wrong way.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, he is, he is MAGA deep state. He is MAGA institutionalism. And where MAGA suffers is where people like him try to enforce institutionalist values on the MAGA ecosystem.

Simone Collins: Interesting. Okay.

That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I personally bristle against that, you know, embrace. The renegades. Don’t try to enforce [00:56:00] your top down hierarchical way of running everything. But of course, somebody who’s really tight with Epstein is gonna see the world that way. It’s, it’s, it’s for the elite to, to manage things.

And elite is defined by whether you’re in the right social networks and you say the right thing and you act the right way. And everyone else is a, is a non-elite. Yeah. And I find that to be a very to me it’s a repellent way of seeing the world. It, it makes me like sort of bristle and like I don’t want to deal with that.

Whereas here’s a great example of like where he’s different from Trump, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Nick Fuentes ends up showing up at Trump’s estate, and people can know I have my political differences with Nick Fuentes, but he engages Trump with like, ye has a bunch of ideas that Trump finds very exciting and Trump like, takes him to lunch and has this long conversation with him where they just like nerd out about like statistics and,

Simone Collins: oh, must have been a really FI wish I were,

Speaker 4: Unit 1 0 1. Did you know? Did you know one F three aliens have [00:57:00] some sort of weapon built into their physiology? Are aliens inherently violent? Hmm. Interesting. How did you know some aliens are single mothers on a genetic level? I wonder if it affects the behavior of the children. Hmm. Curious. Tell about per capita.

Speaker 6: I’m getting to it.

Malcolm Collins: because Trump doesn’t actually look down on people.

Like he, he actually is very much like, oh yeah, whatev, you

Simone Collins: see, he’s a yes and kind of person. Yeah. Well, I’ve, I, my favorite thing that I’ve heard about him recently is that he’s the kind of guy where in a meeting. If, if he feels like he can solve a problem, he’ll just like pick up a phone and be like, let’s solve it right now.

Like, let’s do this. And I love that kind of person who’s like, okay, I’m gonna call this person. Like, maybe they can just make this go away. And he will use his business connections or whatever to do it. He’s very yes. And get her done. And I love that. Not like Steve Bannon procedure, Steve and you showed up

Malcolm Collins: at, at, you know, his, his Breitbart or something and [00:58:00] you were, Nick Fuentes was Yee he’s just gonna have security yell at you or something, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, very different approaches to people he sees as beneath him.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. That is fair enough. This was fascinating. If, if Epstein is alive, man, he must be having so much fun.

Malcolm Collins: He probably watches Basecamp if Epstein is alive.

Simone Collins: Oh, come

Malcolm Collins: on. Have you seen his

Simone Collins: interest? I guess he is terminally, yeah, he was terminally online it seems.

Although I was, I don’t know though, because I was listening to old audio of him. I think talking. To a former Prime Minister, I think of Israel. I can’t remember which one. Maybe it was bb, I can’t remember. But he was trying to spell and or pronounce Palantir and just butchering it. And I mean, everyone just talking about how terrible he was at emails too, but like he wasn’t in with the tech, right.

He was [00:59:00] like, there’s this guy, Peter, Peter Thiel the, the best. I haven’t met him. But like he just didn’t seem to really be in with the tech.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. There,

Malcolm Collins: there is no Peter Thiel in the files as far as I know.

Simone Collins: No, I think they met at some point. And Peter Thiel was interviewed about him. But.

At least at a certain point in time, he was really not in with the Silicon Valley elite.

Malcolm Collins: So

Simone Collins: the really

Malcolm Collins: what’s funny is people have said the reason why people are like Peter Thiel and Elon and Trump seem to have been resistant to him, is that they already had harems. So he had nothing to offer them, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s like, I got a heroin at home buddy. Like, I don’t need to go to your creepy island.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: My heroin’s vetted, you know?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And this is the thing where people will be like, well, Trump has done sexual whatever bad things in the past. It’s like, yeah, he absolutely has. But I don’t think he did them with Epstein.

I think the biggest smoking gun we have on Trump at Epstein is not from this release of files, but the birthday card. The birthday card [01:00:00] is by far the biggest smoking gun we have on Trump. And it’s not even that, like, that

Simone Collins: smoking, I don’t know. I feel like that it was, it was one of those like, hello fellow perv just like.

Old powerful men liked to joke about, or at least at a time when it was considered chic to do so, liked to joke about how they were old powerful men and like, ha ha, boobs. Ha, I mean, like it, it was, it’s the old rich man version of like joking about boobs as like a teen boy. You know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But he used the term young.

Simone Collins: That was Jeffrey’s thing.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, and Trump apparently was aware. I mean, he said it in other

Simone Collins: videos, he joked about it. He’s like, he likes some really young, yeah, I mean like, no, like

Malcolm Collins: this guy is like two reporters, like maybe look into that like

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. He is. I love the way he talks.

Malcolm Collins: One of my biggest fears recently is I’ve been talking to Simone.

‘cause I look at Jeffrey’s stuff on like genetic engineering of children and like cloning and his attempts to set that up. And I’m like, could we have known [01:01:00] him? Like if, if he was still active today, would we be in the Epstein files? Like

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I told Simone almost certainly he would’ve found some way to contact us.

We would’ve replied because I’m interested. I mean, if he’s setting up a lab, I want to know about it. Right?

Simone Collins: No, but like, I think had we known about his his creepy

Malcolm Collins: right. But I’m, I’m saying if, if all that’s not out yet.

Simone Collins: But it was out like in 2008, wasn’t it? It was like this stuff

Malcolm Collins: was really public.

Right. I, a timeline all of that never gets out.

Simone Collins: Oh, if, okay. So had he never become a sex offender and gone to

Malcolm Collins: jail? No. He was a sex offender. Just people didn’t know. That was most of the people when Bill Gates was interacting with him, when Stephen Hawking was interacting with him, they didn’t know. They had no way to know he was a sex offender.

Simone Collins: I’m pretty sure everyone knew.

Malcolm Collins: I’m pretty sure they were both well before the sex offender. No,

Simone Collins: I think I’ve heard Bill Gates saying in an interview that he made a mistake in doing that and it was,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. He made a mistake in talking to [01:02:00] him. Not, not because of the, he made a mistake because it was Jeffrey Epstein and all of this happened.

Not because he should have known he was a bad guy.

Simone Collins: No, I’m pretty sure that the issue is that these people No. That these people knew ‘cause it was also quite prominent the story of him going to jail and stuff.

Malcolm Collins: You couldn’t just Google things back then as easily

Simone Collins: do Malcolm. Yes, you could. You forget how

Malcolm Collins: the two, the two strings we’re not pulling on in this ‘cause it’s for a different day, different topic if you guys wanna hear about it.

Yeah. Is their affiliations with Reddit and four chan and how they influence God online culture. Yeah. Maybe crypto as well. Anyway, love you Simone. Bet you didn’t expect to find such compelling evidence that he might still be alive

Simone Collins: anon, bro. Are you okay?

Malcolm Collins: I hope so. God. Well, how has nobody heard from this guy yet?

How has nobody tracked him

Simone Collins: down? Oh [01:03:00] man. Who did his job, but he got his pay out. You know what?

Yeah. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Bye. I mean, we all hope, we hope that that is what happened to the poor security guard who went on Reddit and said, I think I just saw Jeffrey Epstein being wheeled out.

Simone Collins: Thanks.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Have a good one..

As a final note, I didn’t think to bring it up in the episode ‘cause it was such an obvious hoax, but then I saw Knucks cover it, so I think I have to bring it up. , There’s this photo of, , Jeffrey Epstein in Israel looking older and with a beard, and it is very obviously an AI fake. If you look at either the Hebrew text in the background, which is just gibberish or elements like the guy’s foot.

Which has an AI logo over it. We only ask for the smallest amount of incredulity guys.

The other video that seems maybe a bit more credible is this drone footage that claims to be from 10 day after his death showing Epstein on [01:04:00] Epstein Island.

Speaker 2: Uh.

Um.

The final area where we can do an update video, , is a debate of whether jerky was used as code for human meat in the Epstein files. , Simone believes very strongly that jerky was specifically a code for drugs because we don’t see another code for drugs. And we often see the code jerky being used, we sent it in for lab testing.

We sent it in for lab testing. I mean, she’s like, well, you would send drugs in for lab testing. But I’m like, but you might also send you a meet in for lab testing if you’re not sure what diseases it may have. And you got it from a random source. And keep in mind, there’s the emails that even Simone admits this one’s hard for her to get around that say that, , they were having a chef.

, The eating it at a restaurant called cannibal. I don’t think there’s a real restaurant called cannibal. , She thinks that’s just somebody, you know, perversion, maxing in the way that they’re talking about something. , But that seems too [01:05:00] convenient for me. The other one is, somebody said they were having a meal of jerky and steak.

Why would you have a meal of drugs and steak? . And, , the, the other big one is, , refrigeration of the jerky that they talk about. Meaning they’re obviously not talking about jerky, jerky, jerky, but she’s thinking, oh, well that’s a, that’s a, you know, drugs. , And she’s like, it’s weird that we don’t see any other mention of drugs given that these sorts of rich people would want drugs.

And we keep seeing people jonesing after they’re jerky. And, , it’s weird to think that you would Jones after human meat, even if you were weird like that, right? And then the other thing is, well, could it be blood? I don’t think it’s blood. I don’t, I don’t see anyone being into that, that, that seems too niche.

But, , that’s the other thing. And we could do a whole episode on it if people wanted to go deep into it.

Simone Collins: What was the, people seemed happy. What were they saying? Gosh, we were viewing the comments was like a lifetime ago, like two hours. And I’ve done something

Malcolm Collins: in Cuba, if you remember.

Simone Collins: Yes. Yeah, people were just kinda like, whoa, can’t believe this is [01:06:00] happening. And also people, it’s one of those videos I

Malcolm Collins: knew wouldn’t do as well in the algorithm ‘cause it’s not as salacious,

Simone Collins: but people were glad that you brought it up ‘cause it indeed was not on their radar. And they appreciated that they could trust you to surface stuff that people aren’t discussing.

One person said that Mexico started resupplying Cuba already. So crisis really didn’t check. I think that’s gonna

Malcolm Collins: change the timeline a lot, but

Simone Collins: yeah, I haven’t checked it in

Malcolm Collins: my latest search of this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I,

Malcolm Collins: it, it, it delays things, but not by much.

Simone Collins: There’s still,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, Mexico would need to become a major supplier and then it’s only until the next election cycle

Simone Collins: and one person pointed out that.

Yeah, there’s no way Cubans would send money back that Cubans are so rich in, in the United States that Cuban expats in the US could probably just buy Cuba with all their wealth without actually feeling much hurt, and they’re probably not wrong. So

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: I mean, I bet all the Irish in the United States could buy Ireland even with all of its, [01:07:00]

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know.

Simone Collins: Those Irish

Malcolm Collins: are a bunch of drunkards. Simone, you end up Boston. And these are, these are not like Cubans, you know, sturdy, upstanding citizens who work hard. We were talking about Irish here.

Simone Collins: The Irish, okay. K five.

Malcolm Collins: Come on.

Simone Collins: A little different with the, with the Irish. Oh, well,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. A, a, a a little different.

Okay. Never been known for their business acumen. I’m joking. But it’s true. If you look at historic stereotypes the,

Simone Collins: or their cuisine, I, it’s so funny because all of the, the stereotypes about Scottish cuisine. Just completely got inverted. I, I can’t get enough of haggis. I can’t get, oh yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Scottish cuisine is amazing.

Simone Collins: It’s amazing. Irish cuisine is amazing. And then we go to Ireland and like I do actually, I quite like Irish soda bread, but I’m sorry, that is one of the most low effort breads in the entire world. And even though it’s good I don’t feel like you really get credit for it because it’s so easy. And bread and butter is, is is way too way too, like [01:08:00] easy of a, a win.

You know? I

Malcolm Collins: wonder if nons Scottish people like Scottish, you’re not Scottish in your ancestry, are you?

Simone Collins: I’m a little Scottish, I think. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Because I, but

Simone Collins: obviously

Malcolm Collins: mostly I love it and everybody’s like, oh, it’s terrible. And I’m like, no. It’s like literally the best food in the

Simone Collins: world. It’s amazing.

It’s amazing,

Malcolm Collins: by the way, you want the best dish ever, and I’m so annoyed I cannot get good hagas in the United States.

Simone Collins: Haggas balls, deep fried haggis balls.

Malcolm Collins: Well, deep fried Haus balls are amazing, but I think one of the best dishes for fusion

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Is haggis fried rice.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But also like the worst food poisoning you ever got in St.

Andrew’s was hait fried rice, wasn’t it? Yes.

Malcolm Collins: What really bad food poisoning.

Simone Collins: I’m surprised you would ever recommended it. I mean, if you’re

Malcolm Collins: making it yourself, you can do a really good job with it.

Simone Collins: Let’s say that you order haggis at a restaurant in, in Edinburgh, and then you have to, you’re at an Airbnb and you.

Wanna use what’s left over. It would be great for, like, if, if we lived there and we went out and we got haggis,

Malcolm Collins: you can just get haggis from a butcher anywhere in Scotland. It’s very easy to buy.

Simone Collins: That’s not fair.

Malcolm Collins: [01:09:00] It’s very hard to buy in the United States. It’s

Simone Collins: very easy. And I heard that like Scotland’s not doing so well.

In terms of it’s, I don’t know, like it’s going downhill. Well, it’s become like

Malcolm Collins: a totalitarian state. It’s even worse in the uk.

Simone Collins: See, that’s really disappointing because I always harbored this fantasy that I. You know, once we’re super old, we, we go buy a castle and, you know, you know, like one of those like $5 castles in Scotland by the time we’re old.

I know. That’s the thing. They’ll be dirt cheap. I mean, the money’s all in the maintenance and fixing and upkeep. So they’re actually incredibly expensive. You get to be super wealthy to actually my family have a

Malcolm Collins: castle in, in Scotland. We

Simone Collins: can just go Yeah, castle. Like the, the castle is, is, is the boat, is the island of, of the rich people world.

You buy it if you just want an endless money hole. But anyway, I had this dream that we would end up, you know, in or around Edinburgh along with all the sci-fi authors and intellectuals and, and have our grandkids just come up and stay with us there, you know, but no, it not gonna happen. We need to get a lot

Malcolm Collins: richer,

Simone Collins: [01:10:00] so we’ll

Malcolm Collins: see.

I

Simone Collins: know, I know. To be able to afford more old properties. Because, yeah, we’re already looking now at how, how we have to repair the floors of our

Malcolm Collins: homes and they’ll have VPN bands by then. And I, I wouldn’t live in a country with a V VP N band. I, I, I love some of our fans. Were like, no, it doesn’t necessarily mean, so

Simone Collins: if you have starlink vp, if you have starlink, do you, are you still subject to

Malcolm Collins: that?

This, the country would likely make it illegal to sell? Starlink was in the country and they’ll have easy ways of tracking if you’re using starlink. Ah,

Simone Collins: okay.

Malcolm Collins: Keep in mind the UK used to drive vans around to see who had TVs in their houses to hit them with.

Simone Collins: I heard that in the end. That was mostly performative.

I mean, now it doesn’t

Malcolm Collins: No, I know, but no, I’m just showing how that’s how dystopian they’re Okay. Was being seen is going right. Like

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: they’re clearly performative dystopia. Anybody who is promoting a porn band is promoting an eventual VPN ban. Mm-hmm. And they were like, no, that’s not true. Look at the uk.

It hasn’t happened yet. And I’m like, yeah, but it’s already on the table in the uk It’s on the table in almost every country that has a porn ban. I actually feel like,

Simone Collins: I like this concept of performative dystopia. I [01:11:00] feel like even liberals would really love to just cosplay. Handmaid’s Tale like Gid or Gilead,

Malcolm Collins: they do,

Simone Collins: they, they under his eye, they wanna walk around with their little bonnets in their capes.

They’re so cute. You know, what am I? Nice.

Malcolm Collins: But I mean, the level of I, I, I think the people who pretend like porn bands don’t lead to VPN bands are the types that have this deontological logic and like, don’t actually look at what’s happening in the countries that already have porn bands and think through the long-term ramifications.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, guys, I, I told Malcolm that you, you hate his VP n take on porn bands. And he,

Malcolm Collins: but it’s true. Every country that has done it is now tabling VPN bands as a potential political option. He got that using pornography is motivation for that. See,

Simone Collins: he got mad.

Malcolm Collins: It’s a, it’s just a timeline. When the two things happen thing you, you are opening the doors on that one because you effectively don’t have a porn band.

If you don’t have a VPN band, you have a a, a funny little law on the books. That means functionally nothing. Which is why, I mean, they’re not wrong in pointing [01:12:00] that out.

Simone Collins: No, it’s true. Yeah.

Speaker 7: She’s American. Oh, look at this.

Speaker 8: I saw an American flag. Whoa, the American flag. Really good. Are you an American? Yeah. Is America the best? Yeah. Are you gonna make the whole World America one day? How? Certainly

over

my over, over.

Speaker 7: That’s a good plan.

That’s why we named you Octavian. Don’t. Then we will kill you. That’s a good plan, buddy. Yeah. Whoever says yes is surviving, and whoever says no, and, and I’ll say whoever says yes, whoever [01:13:00] says yes is gonna stay alive. Whoever says no is gonna die. It’s a little intense, buddy. You sure about that? Yeah. Do it.

Speaker 8: I, I guess you’re all gonna get hands. I guess we’re all gonna to say yes. Yeah, yeah, I know. Are you worried about killing people? Like maybe that’s unethical. No, I’m just trying to make a whole American brown.

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[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about something that is wildly under-discussed in the news right now, which is that Cuba is about to collapse. And when I say about to collapse, you may think that I am exaggerating. They have literally at this point, 14 to 19 days of oil left.

They have had no tanker arrivals since January 9th. The, the tankers that were being sent from Venezuela have been cut off and their last lifeline, which was Mexico, has also been cut off. Why than that? Trump negotiations. So, NAFT is about to, is about to be renegotiated and oh Trump put a lot of pressure on Mexico to cut off.

Also, it’s costing Mexico a lot. They spent 3 billion basically in free oil for Venezuela. Over the past just few years I think. Since Why started this person’s administration? Well, Cuba was giving them their slave [00:01:00] doctors for people who don’t know Google. Oh yeah. UBA basically enslaves their, their doctors and was giving them to Mexico as like an exchange.

But they did the Venezuela was an also interesting situation ‘cause we’re seeing more and more, venezuela had given Cuba in terms of like loans that Cuba would never pay back, very obviously and stuff like that. $18 billion. And if we look at the elite guard that was killed during the raid, we know that 32 of them, so almost all of the people who died were actually Cubans.

So it appeared that Cuba basically controlled like the. The, the, the accusations that Cuba had basically subjugated Venezuela and was just extracting resources from it were accurate. They basically controlled the entire elite guard of the country and most of the major military petitions. Oh. And this is being systemically reversed right now.

Mm-hmm. And I note here that another thing you’re not seeing if you’re watching mainstream news right now is that Venezuela has actually made pretty. Big changes. Not only have they stopped sending [00:02:00] money and oil to Cuba but they have started releasing hundreds. I think now we’re at 300, but it shows no signs of slowing down political prisoners.

So we are actually seeing change in Venezuela. It’s just

Simone Collins: alright,

Malcolm Collins: Trump can. Dunk on it too much. Mm-hmm. Or it would look bad for the woman who’s in power now. Right. You know, we have to be very nice about all of our political wins that we’re making in Venezuela and very graceful about it because Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You don’t want too many people asking. Did she cooperate with you guys to get rid of Maduro?

Simone Collins: Yeah, like sad. You wanna look a little matchy matchy? That would not be good.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You know, you don’t wanna look too matchy. Matchy. So she constantly complains. But in terms of what we actually wanna see happen in Venezuela, that’s what we’re seeing right now.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: And I note here that how bad things have gotten in Cuba is, is not a, like this is happening completely out of nowhere scenario. So,

Simone Collins: well I have to ask. Do they not have oil reserves? We have oil reserves.

By the way, if you’re [00:03:00] wondering if Cuba has oil deposit somewhere, , they do. But, , in 20 12, 3 deep water, more than 300 meters of water exploration wells were drilled by Italian platform Scarborough nine. , And, , none of the three found commercial quality of oil or gas, which jeopardized Cuba’s hopes to find hydrocarbons to boost its economy.

So basically they, they technically have some around the island, , but , none of the commercial explorations have ever found a way to reach them in a cash positive manner.

Malcolm Collins: Cuba is a little island. Simone? No. Cuba

Simone Collins: doesn’t have one. Can have some kind of, I don’t know, tank.

This is my out of touch. I I have to ask the out of touch questions that everyone else is asking. ‘cause I’m not the only out of touch person here.

Malcolm Collins: No, they’re completely out. So their economy last year, 20% was the tourism industry. And this is despite the fact that tourism has been crashing for them.

So things have been getting much, much worse for them.

Simone Collins: Oh, so the world. Top destination for male sex workers is going out of faith. Oh, [00:04:00] this is because the younger people aren’t having sex anymore.

Malcolm Collins: That’s a,

Simone Collins: so what kind of woman wants to go to Cuba anymore?

Malcolm Collins: There’s been a combinations of factors that hit their tourism industry.

One was Trump reinstated distinctions that Obama had lifted. Two

Simone Collins: was, now we actually know this, when, when we ran our travel agency, we used to have a decent amount of traffic to Cuba. Yeah. And then after a while flights got kind of weird. And it was harder to get people there. The visa situation got very complicated and then we started having banking problems like, oh, do you do any business with Cuba?

And then like we, we got shut out of various things. Like we as a travel agency were strongly disincentivized from. Facilitating travel to Cuba, even if we’re talking like a student trip. At one point we helped to facilitate a student trip, like a tour to Cuba for, you know, cultural reasons and stuff.

So I can totally see why tourism is down, not just because of sanctions and stuff, but because the very operators and companies [00:05:00] facilitating that travel were really. There were a lot of friction was added to the process. Well,

Malcolm Collins: it’s not just that. There was basically to give a bit of history of what happened is Obama opened everything.

And much like when apartheid in it in South Africa, a bunch of people went in thinking, oh my God, look at this opportunity. Look at these green fields.

Simone Collins: Oh, but you go, and the only thing that’s. Cool is the male sex workers and everything else is crappy.

Malcolm Collins: We’ll get to that. But, so a lot of travel started happening to Cuba and a lot of people said, oh, we’ll invest in it.

So it was all subsidized and sort of over the top of what the economy could actually handle. Oh, even before the new sanctions came in, many of the travel providers that we were operating with that had been set up during that boom period were already about to go bankrupt or had already gone bankrupt before Trump sanctions.

It’s just not that many people actually wanted to go to Cuba. Is, is what we really learned. And really the only reason people reliably went to Cuba, which as Simone said, was male sex workers. That was the core thing. So it was mostly older, like [00:06:00] middle-aged women and gay men. That’s, that’s who was going for male Cuban sex workers.

Simone Collins: This one is down in my head.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And but to give you an idea of how bad things have been in Cuba since 2021, did you know that around 10%, this is only since 2021, we’re talking five years, 10% of the Cuban population has immigrated out of the country.

Simone Collins: Okay. So they haven’t made it impossible to escape.

I thought it was mostly a get on a raft and hope for the best kind of situation. So it’s not

Malcolm Collins: well, having 10% of your population leave. And keep in mind the population that leaves has almost been entirely under 40. So what is their working population? Cuba has a worse TFR than the United States.

They’re around 1.5 to 1.3 from what I’ve seen in various studies. They are extremely effed on that point. But you were saying like, do they have reserves of oil? The reason I was emphasizing the importance of their tourism industry is that even with the urist industry being like their lifeline right now, sure.

The hotels regularly go with blackouts. Yeah. So no [00:07:00] power. They go, we

Simone Collins: had issues with that. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Without running water. Mm-hmm. They go without, so, so even like their key industry, and you’ve gotta understand if you’re like, what does it mean to run out of oil in a matter of days at this point? What this means is you have.

No factories operate almost all of Cuba’s energy is made with gas. Mm-hmm. So you have no light, no electricity. Your farming equipment doesn’t work.

Simone Collins: So, wait, they, they’re electrical grid you think is based on,

Malcolm Collins: it is based like 70% oil gas? Yeah.

Simone Collins: No. Okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the reason they built it that way is ‘cause they were getting free gas from Venezuela.

Simone Collins: That helps.

Malcolm Collins: So they, they have no electricity, no farming equipment, no way to get from one place to another like this. God.

Simone Collins: And those old cars aren’t exactly fuel efficient. Oh, no. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The scale of the badness is very, very, very bad.

Simone Collins: This is not good. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And so we’ve

Simone Collins: gotta No, no. [00:08:00] And then let’s say that this happens and then a bunch of people.

In, in pretty dire straits actually hop on more rafts and float over to Miami, and then ICE just takes them, I don’t know, flies them to Somalia. This is not gonna be good. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It is, it is not, well, it could be good depending on the outcome. So I really think we have never seen a president so well positioned to end this.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And we see that from the way that he’s done. Bo is he gonna

Simone Collins: port to Rico,

Malcolm Collins: With Greenland, which has been really, really impressive. No. As well as the, what he did was Venezuela and the subsequent deal afterwards. So, what, what, I’ll get to this. So what we, is

Simone Collins: he gonna be throwing toilet paper rolls at them next?

Malcolm Collins: Did he throw toilet paper rolls at

Simone Collins: somebody in Puerto Rico? Don’t you remember when he was like Puerto Rico and then he kept saying it and then like, I mean, I don’t know. The way he pronounces this country is just kinda gets me jina and Port Rico. He gets a little flamboyant with that one. But [00:09:00] yeah, during one of the hurricane recovery processes, he.

He went to Puerto Rico and he he threw, I think, I believe, paper towels at the audience. And, and people were like, roll of them. Don’t worry. I mean, and I, I would be thrilled to have someone throw a roll of paper towels at me. They’re, we need them. But yeah, like people that got caught up in the media because people are very angry about him, you know, not, not actually helping people.

And. You know, Trump was like, I don’t know, they seem pretty happy about getting paper towels. So it was That

Malcolm Collins: is hilarious. And

Simone Collins: very Trump, but you’re saying, yeah, we, this could be like another. Another Puerto Rico for the United States. Like we treat it the same way.

Malcolm Collins: No, unlikely. But what we could do, and I think that this is why it will go so well, is we have seen through Trump’s engagement with Venezuela.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Typically what you have when you had, you know, leftists or the old sort of neocons in a, in a argue, you know, trying to build American power in a region. They’d go to a country like Venezuela that had [00:10:00] been heavily, you know, blockhead by America and everything like that.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And they would say, Hey guys we need you to start holding democratic elections and release your political prisoners and we’re gonna start holding like, rural trials for everyone who broke.

You know, major whatevers. Right. Okay. Yeah. Or we would try to do a coup in the country, right? Like we would fund a bunch of militants with the CIA or something like this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Those two strategies it turned out were really bad. Trump tried something totally new which is not like anyone has ever thought to do in a country like Venezuela or for that matter.

Which is Trump basically just went in and was like okay, who’s willing to negotiate? What do you, what, what do we really want? We really want your oil. So, you know, what do you care about? Right? Like it’s, and the

Simone Collins: deal,

Malcolm Collins: why don’t, why don’t you release some token number of prisoners?

You know, they’re like, do we need to hold fair elections? Whatever. You know, like, you

Simone Collins: do

Malcolm Collins: you Yes. Stop sending money to oil to, to Cuba. And they’re like, you know what? We’ve been really pissed about this [00:11:00] Cuba arrangement for a while as well. Yeah, we’ll work on that. So, so with Cuba, the interesting thing is, and this is something I really wanna take some time to talk about here, what, what.

He might be offering Cuba could be significantly different than what other presidential administrations have attempted to offer Cuba. Right.

Simone Collins: Interesting.

Malcolm Collins: He could be going in there being like, oh yeah, keep your regime, whatever. Right? Like, we’ll just change a few things here and there. And it’s important to understand that Cuba is significantly more centralized than Venezuela.

I mean, that’s how Cuba essentially took over Venezuela to begin with. They are essentially coup proof at this point given how centralized the power structure is. And considering that in Venezuela, they had memories of democracy in Venezuela, right? Yes. Like they knew how much communists had screwed them over.

Mm-hmm. In Cuba, there isn’t this same memory of, of this either. Right. And I think another thing that we need to touch on here before I go further. Now also keeping is not as [00:12:00] corrupt. Like it is corrupt, but it’s not nearly as corrupt. They care much more about the longevity of the regime than personal enrichment, even people in positions of power.

Finally they have a, a real military, which, which Venezuela didn’t really have. They

Simone Collins: do. Or is it just like Russians hanging out?

Malcolm Collins: No, no. Cuba has like Cuban military, I mean, Mexican Venezuela is military with a Cuban

Simone Collins: military. Yeah. I, I didn’t know Army. So they, they have like a, a sizable army. What’s their specialty?

Navy Air Force. What’s the situation there?

If you want the full answer here, , Cuba’s strongest branch is its Army, , where it has around 113 main battle tanks, T 55 to 62 models and relies on a dense network of anti-air systems, radar satellites, and surface to air missiles. , Cuba’s Navy is relatively weak. They only have around 19 vessels including patrol, craft, mine, scrapers, and a few intelligence shifts.

Um, and then for their Air Force, , was at its peak in the 1990s when they boasted [00:13:00] 230 fixed wing aircraft. Today it operates around 31 to 34 active aircraft, mostly aging, , mig, 21 or 23 fighters.

Simone Collins: Okay, so it, it, yeah, but I, I mean, I don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, but the point being is it’s not like a fragmented force like Venezuela’s was another, like Venezuela, as I said, their military was basically controlled by Cubans.

Cuban’s military is basically controlled by the guys who own about 30 to 40% of a Cuban economy. So the people who least want regime change. Also control the military. Which is, I mean, if you’re trying to structure an economy not to undergo a coup or anything, that makes a lot of sense. But it also potentially gives Trump alternate people to negotiate wiz within the country depending on what they want.

Another thing I was gonna note before, well actually one really interesting thing about this that we’ll get to in a second, but I want to just note here, is Cuba has been a really important part of fueling. Leftist ideological causes was in the United States [00:14:00] for about the last 50 years. Not through funding, but through training programs.

Simone Collins: Training. What? So they’re not, they’re not like Russian troll bot farms. They’re not like c CCP

Malcolm Collins: campaigns. No. It’s, it’s really fascinating. So it’s through two sectors. One is. Is sort of covert training programs that they’ve been operating for a long time. Oh, okay. And if, and you see this in Antifa circles, one of the things that’s known when people come out of Antifa circles, and the guy who we had, who was working in Antifa, who came on our show, talked about this is that there is something of, a status symbol was in Antifa communities.

That being Cuban trained like that means you are elite. That means that means you’re legit and no one will question you.

Simone Collins: So the Navy Seals of. Antifa are Cuban trained anti,

Malcolm Collins: anti well Cuban trained in their ideology. Yeah. And it’s not just them, it’s also the political group, the socialist political organization we have in the United States that like Mond was affiliated with.

They have been heavily

Simone Collins: Democratic [00:15:00] Socialists of

Malcolm Collins: America. Yeah, they were. Heavily influenced or even potentially set out by the Cubans.

Simone Collins: Woo.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. And Cuba also offers for like college students. And we see a lot of like leftist ideologues, even mainstream was in democratic politics who do this program where you go to Cuba for I don’t know how long, like a few months.

And you get political training and learn how great first, right? For comedy? Yes. Wow. Okay. Taking down Cuba is, I think a lot of people do not realize how. Critical and intelligent. Trump’s handling of the Venezuela situation was. Mm. Because basically it’s knocking down like a, their course one, it knocked down the perception that Russia or China could protect you.

Yeah, yeah. And with Cuba, we have been knocking out all of their potential allies one by one. And I think a lot of the rest of the world didn’t see that this was happening, you know? Iran is off the table as someone who can help them now. Yeah, Russia is off the table as someone who can help them.

Venezuela is off the table as someone who can help them, and North Korea is off the table as [00:16:00] someone who can help them. They have no one they can go to. And China, I guess they could try to go to China, but I haven’t seen any signs that that’s going to happen for them. I mean, China’s in a difficult position as it is right now.

So, Cuba just doesn’t really have any friends left. And they are incredibly isolated. The other thing I wanted to note that I think is really clever about Trump in terms of how he’s built his administration which is just so it’s actually really sweet and heartening to see is, marco Rubio is the one who’s handling Cuba right now.

He’s handling all of the Cuba situation, all the Venezuela situation. And what I’ve repeatedly see with Trump in terms of how he handles enemies or competitors for presidential positions is he promises them and gets them a position that they would prefer to being president. Oh the, the, the, you know, what did Kennedy want?

More than anything. It was, it was to run the, the food, it was to run the, the medical [00:17:00] associations of the United States. It was to fix all of our food and drug stuff and all of the medical stuff. And that is the position that Trump put him in. Everybody, you, you could have told me if you looked at.

Kennedy’s campaign ads. Does, is this man running to be head of medical establishments in the United States or is he running to be head of the, the country? No, he wants to fix all the medical stuff. You look at, you know, what, what Rubio really wanted more than anything. And, and anyone could tell you if you asked Rubio, would you rather free Cuba or be president, he’d say, I’d rather free Cuba hands down.

That’s just like life’s work, right? It’s the number one biggest gift anyone could ever give him. It’s to be in this position. And so he’s treating it really, really seriously. Right? Like, I think way was, was was much more honesty than you could normally. Appreciate from a, a lackey who’s out there doing something right.

I mean, no people should know. I personally don’t really like Marco Rubio. I think he’s. Boring and like old school politics, which is also good that, you know, Trump didn’t put him in a position to be the next [00:18:00] presidential candidate. I think he’s really done as a rising star in Republican politics. And he put Vance in that position who’s a great as well.

Like Vance wanted to be VP more than anything. Vance is the one who actually wants to be president one day and has been the, pulling the strings on that for a long time. He’s done some really great speeches recently. Mind you around, well, we’ll get on that in another video. This, this is around the, the have you, have you been following the stuff on like voter id,

Simone Collins: Just broadly that the, that they want the Trump administration is fighting for, I think universal voter id.

Right.

Malcolm Collins: Which they should.

It’s,

Simone Collins: yeah, for context in the United States. In many places you do not have to have a state issued photo ID in order to vote. You can just say. My name is Malcolm Collins and I’m here to vote, and this is my address.

Malcolm Collins: And these places, if you, I I, I can put a map, I’ll put two maps on the screen here.

One is of whether places go Democrat or Republican in state elections.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And whether or [00:19:00] not they require a voter id. And what you see is almost every state that requires a voter ID goes Republican in almost every state that doesn’t go to Democrat.

I’m a little worried for this video ‘cause when I was searching this, this is way more band of a topic than I thought. You can watch what our video is this, , weekend for, Paid subscribers. We we’re gonna go over the topics we can’t talk about on YouTube, but this is really adjacent to one of them.

But all the, , you know, Deb debunking things on this, they say, well, it is true that Kamala won most of the states that didn’t require voter id. , She won some. That did require it, that we’re extremely blue states, which proves that this isn’t true. This is such a weird, I mean, obviously there’s still gonna be some states that she won.

Nobody’s saying that she literally only won everything. What.

Simone Collins: Yeah. When

Malcolm Collins: we

Simone Collins: went to this one conference they were handing out hats that said when I die, don’t let me vote Democrat.

That’s a

Malcolm Collins: real phenomenon that’s been reported on even, you know, when, when Elon was doing the sort of [00:20:00] breakdown of the roles for Medicaid and stuff like that, and he found all the dead people who were on the roles, he then checked to see. It, how many have voted? And a lot of them had voted, you know, this is a, this is a real thing that’s really happening.

I mean,

Simone Collins: and I didn’t realize that because when, when we got the hats, I was like, I don’t get it.

Malcolm Collins: Well, Kennedy famously joked, like literally Kennedy joked when somebody was congratulating him on a presidential win. Something about like, oh, well you should think the whatever cemetery.

This joke was explicitly made by Kennedy, but in a coded language on a call he had was daily about how he won, , Illinois and Ohio. I.

Malcolm Collins: So like this has been a pretty open thing for a while.

And so I’m really glad that something, hopefully is being done. I’ve, I’ve heard that like the Republicans in the Senate are like being super pussies about this right now, and it’s really freaking me out that they could be that pathetic on this because, you know, we need to stop the cheat, right? Like, this cannot be allowed to continue especially at the scale that has been happening.

But it’s just

Simone Collins: wild. You, you have to have a, a driver’s license, a form of government [00:21:00] issued ID in order to drive a car. Yeah. Like if you can’t figure that out, should you really be allowed to vote? Really

Malcolm Collins: right there. There was a funny video clip I saw of somebody going around and repeating what leftist, so basically they went to a college campus and said, why, why do you need a.

Voter id. Right. And they were like, well, because then black people won’t be able to vote. And he is like, why don’t you think black people can get a voter id?

[00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00] [00:25:00]

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And so he took kind of insulting all of their quotes around that. Like, black people don’t know how to use the internet, or black people don’t know where DMVs are, whatcha doing.

And then he took [00:26:00] these and he went to a black community and started asking black people if through excuse.

Simone Collins: Would you like me to help you access the internet? Oh my God. Oh, this. If black Twitter wasn’t a thing,

Malcolm Collins: I, I, well, I mean the, the, the, the polls for this are overwhelming. It’s something like, even, like 76% of black people want this to be a law. Everybody wants this to be a law. It’s really just being used by people who want to cheat.

Like that’s, that’s sort of, I mean, we’re in a situation with the redistricting that’s gonna happen in 2030. The only way Democrats can stay relevant is if they cheat. And, and, and we’re increasingly seeing that in the tactics that they’re using. So, what I wanted to Yes. Go to here ‘cause I find this really interesting.

So, the Werner Moss Brigade, this is from 1969 to present. In 2024 to [00:27:00] 2025, Cuba hosted multiple contingents, including a queer trans brigade. Americans. Got two to four weeks of political education, Marxist linens, indoctrinations, meeting with Cuban intelligence officers, ICAP plus, MIN. NT labor Plus Solidarity work.

Many alumni later became organizers at the PSL the Answer Coalition and Students for Democratic Society, as well as Antifa adjacent groups, the People’s Front led by Milano. Los Santos, who lived in Cuba for years and has extremely close ties to the Cuban government. His group played a central role in the 2024 Columbia University occupation and many pro-Palestine radical actions.

And then the party for Socialism and Liberation, PSL the most pro Cuba Communist Party in the us. Many top Conrads have gone through CU government training programs. So, yes, Cuba has been directly coordinating with these groups. So now it’s time to [00:28:00] think, what, what is Trump going to do? Like, what is the actual plan and what could stop this plan from going through?

But before I get into that, Simone, what are your thoughts?

Simone Collins: I am very curious to hear what you’re going to propose in terms of here’s what the leaders of Cuba would prefer to being the leaders of Cuba. Not to say that they’re having a ton of fun right now anyway. I just, I just wanna know,

Malcolm Collins: so the important thing to note about the leaders of Cuba right now is they are all tremendous leaders.

Oh. The heads of the military, the heads of the state, it is a country being ruined by a boomer autocracy. Right. Like a age aged, I’m

Simone Collins: sorry. The whole world is being ruined by Boomer autocracies. So.

Malcolm Collins: Well, this is a little different. They don’t really have outside voices because it’s not exactly a place where young [00:29:00] people can rise up in power very easily.

So there aren’t, like in the White House, it is very clear in terms of the way they’re making decisions. And even when we go, you know, ‘cause we’ve been to the White House to advise the, the people we’re meeting with are our age or. Younger, often. The Trump administration is a very young administration.

MAGA as a movement is a young movement, right? Like, the, the and the new, right? Especially like screams youth as a movement. When I, when I look at who the movement is, is a bunch of people who would’ve been. Like college effective altruists a generation ago, right? Like, it’s young autistic nerds, right?

And this means that they are on board with the latest technology, the latest ideas, the way the world actually works. Right now, the people who are running things in Cuba are the people who lives through the Cold War. They understand Cold War style politics, which is not what we’re dealing with right now.[00:30:00]

And we also have the the, the big problem with, so the, the current president of Cuba, Miguel Diaz Canal. Canal. I don’t know, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna put these foreign words in my mouth anyway. He is going to have a very hard time stepping back because the, the military controls significant economic sectors through conglomerates like ge.

ESA group de administration Imperial, which oversees tourism remittances in other revenue streams under the current Minister of Defense. Vo Lopez, Myra and which is a very clever way to put it. Remember how I was talking about what all of their cash cow industries were? They put all of those directly under the military and a, a run by a very old guy.

Mind you, it’s very, and so what that means is the military has a structural reason to resist change in a way that the [00:31:00] military in say something like China, may not. Right. Like if all they have is the military right, they, they don’t personally lose money. All your generals don’t personally lose money if there is any sort of economic or systems change.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So the question becomes how do you make a deal for Cuba that keeps the rich people in Cuba rich, but also in the current administration. I am actually open to your thoughts on this Simon moment because I’m not entirely sure what the administration is planning or attempting. They could be trying to do a generational trade off thing, being like, you guys get this until X date and then you transfer it to the next generation.

Or you guys like, I’m, I’m, I’m genuinely not sure what it’s gonna look like. What are your thoughts?

Simone Collins: Possibly. I don’t know how nepotistic the leading party is or how much they care about setting up their personal family and descendants, [00:32:00] but I could possibly see incentivizing them to create an oligarchy in a post Cuban government world or a different administration to be like, well, by agreeing to step down after your term, like you’re the last one.

Yeah, we will help you set up a system in which your descendants disproportionately profit, but also will. Be materially better off because they’re not in power anymore.

Malcolm Collins: That’s, that’s, that’s gonna happen no matter what. Yeah, if you look right now, well, unless we do like a full regime overhaul, which I do not think Trump has any stomach for.

No. If you look at the descendants of Fidel Castro a lot of them are super rich people living in the US right now. Like, there’s a number of like young, like super, I think it was like hundreds of millions of dollars. Like teenage Instagram stars who are like Castro’s descendants. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Adorable.

Malcolm Collins: They, they looted that country that, you know, not an, not an an ethical government. Exactly. [00:33:00] I, I love, I had this girlfriend in college who was from Germany, and she was like a communist who absolutely believed that life was better in Cuba than the United States. And she’s like, oh, their medical sys. I was like, you’re aware that their doctors are basically slaves, right?

For people who don’t know how their doctor program works, and this is responsible for, I think another 20% of the Cuban economy. They send them to other countries and they work for three to four years. And they only get to keep around 10% of the salary that they make. And then they also don’t get paid until they come back.

And they have a constant military reminder on them at all times. So yes, it’s not an awesome life to be a Cuban doctor.

Simone Collins: I, I only learned that weirdly when, man, it was a great dental practice too. A Cuban dentist in Miami told me everything. Did you go to that dentist? Did I set you up with him?

He was right across from our office in the ADE building.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t, I don’t

Simone Collins: remember Durl. But yeah, he, he, like, he would serve you espresso and then just like chat with you while cleaning his teeth. It was a great dental [00:34:00] office and he was, he was from Cuba and he just walked me through the whole process like, oh my God, they, like everyone in his office was a recent Cuban immigrant and he’s just like, man, I’m glad to be outta there.

And like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: it’s bad. No, no, it’s crazy. The crazy thing though is he was a really good dentist. Like I feel like the medical professionals from Cuba and in general, the people who. Managed together. Cuba are very competent. Very

Malcolm Collins: cool. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. There, there’s a, I mean, obviously they’re a huge Cuban business community in the United States.

Mm-hmm. They’re a big faction of the Conservative party in the United States. They’ve been very loyal to the party. And they are. Very well accepted. I mean, Marco Rubio, right? Like could have been president, like by the conservative establishment. Mm-hmm. And this means that there is, we were talking with our super fans.

One of them who was Iranian was like, well, do you think that. If the current regime was toppled that the Iranian expats could ever come back and really reestablish something. And I [00:35:00] didn’t really feel they could. It’s, it’s, it is just too far. They, they’ve done too much damage already to the country infrastructure.

And they’ve built alternate communities in, in other places, and he thought they would, I mean, maybe they care more. I feel the same way about Cubans in the us. It’s an interesting thing ‘cause I think Cubans in the US would send money to Cuban to try to get it reset up, but I don’t think that they would rerate.

Simone Collins: I don’t know, man. I get the impression from the Cuban immigrants I’ve met that they’re like, I’m out of there. I’m not sending anything back. Like

Malcolm Collins: I don’t

Simone Collins: them knew. And, and, and then I say that knowing that a, a lot of other. People from other countries do send a lot of remittances back, including Venezuela, where the government was really screwed up and people had major problems with it.

They were still sending money back. In fact, our business made a lot of money from people literally flying with suitcases full of cash. ‘cause we were selling ‘em a plane tickets. It was insane. So, so like, I, I know, but like, there’s something about when people leave Cuba, they’re like, screw that place.

You’re, [00:36:00] it’s very different from

Malcolm Collins: like fleeing Venezuela. When they flee Venezuela. There’s always like a plan to go back eventually, or a plan to send money back.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, this is a temporary setback. Venezuela’s amazing. Like, we’re just gotta sit this out. That kind of thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, it’s more like they send money to their, their relatives back in Venezuela.

I actually don’t see that very much with the Cubans. I know they do not money back to the

Simone Collins: Cubans. No, it’s like, well, and I think it might come from a belief that it’s just. Going to be taken, I guess,

Malcolm Collins: or I don’t know. I, I don’t know. But it’s, it is a different culture. It’s a different culture, right. So, the, the point here being is I don’t know if, if I, I think what we’re gonna get is Cuba has no cards on the table right now.

Right? Like,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I think within a matter of weeks you should expect to see something pretty big happen. I don’t know what it’s going to look like, but I,

Simone Collins: well, yeah, if they’re that low. On a, on a oil reserve that like, I mean, something’s gotta give, [00:37:00] right?

Malcolm Collins: I mean, yeah. I suspect it’s going to be I was gonna say, what.

Describe what’s it’s gonna look like. It’s going to look I think unusually pragmatic. It’s going to be a win for the Trump administration, whatever it is. And it’s going to long term set us up very well with Cuba.

Simone Collins: Well, one of the. How is, I guess, okay, so yeah, tourism. So you’re saying they’re both out of oil and money.

‘cause tourism is weigh down and that was, they’re out of

Malcolm Collins: oil. Well and, and

Simone Collins: I was, Trump would love to extort them for oil money. Especially if it was just from the, the Venezuelan tankers that he seized and was like, we’re gonna sell that oil. I guess I’m gonna keep it. I, I don’t know. I mean, what, I guess the, the major thorn in the side that Cuba has been, and if we were to look at the strategic document released by the US government, on our international policy, our military policy basically was, we do not want.

The Americas, [00:38:00] anyone in the Americas to be a strategic threat. And Cuba is like the outpost of Russia and China left aside from Venezuela, right? I mean, who else, aside from Cuba and Venezuela or strongholds of Russian and China, Chinese interests. I mean, I guess you could say Peru has a ton of Chinese business, so maybe it’s a risk, but I I don’t really see as No, no, no.

Keep in

Malcolm Collins: mind the Peruvian Chinese population immigrated to Peru. Either pre CCP or as refugees from the CCP.

Simone Collins: Yeah, the mining industry in, in. Peru, like exists for China.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It exists to sell to China. So China has huge economic

level,

Simone Collins: but China like doesn’t, I guess there’s not like a, there’s not a big belt there.

I don’t even know if there is a Belt and Road initiative actually.

Malcolm Collins: But there isn’t any ethnic love of China any more than like. A country with a big F and go group would have a love of China. Like they, they, they, they, they don’t, they don’t have a, a yearning to return to the ccp. I was actually decided to ask it because I was [00:39:00] wondering like, why isn’t China helping them right now?

Simone Collins: That’s a good question. Well, China has its own problem though. So I guess if I were to sum it up though, the United States, per its stated strategic interests. Does not want Cuba to be a stronghold of Russian or Chinese interests. So the most important thing is for whatever.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So China has offered some humanitarian aid, 80 million in emergency financial aid for electrical equipment and urgent needs with 60,000 to 90,000 tons of rights, donations and food supplies in January, 2026.

Oh. Beijing has also written off some Cuban debt and provided some funds and assistance, but it doesn’t. Not appear. Yeah. They, they are offering what Cuba needs, which is oil.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Well, come on. I mean, China is an, an importer of energy. They need it for themselves, although they’re really making good progress.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they could pay for it from somewhere, I mean, pay for some [00:40:00] other, I know Cuba has. Supposedly, like if you read their internal documents, they expected that something could happen with Venezuela and it all could be cut off.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And so they planned for lump some like African oil shipment roots. Okay.

From like Algeria. Mm-hmm. And that China could play a role in that. The problem is, is that Cuba just doesn’t really have anything to play other than a geopolitical enemy.

Simone Collins: That’s, that’s significant though. You know, it’s, I think it’s the one big thorn left in our geopolitical side in the Americas.

Unless we wanna count Canada as a, a foreign asset now, which it practically is.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay. So this is why China’s not giving oil. Trump has been threatening and this is also what got Mexico to back off a 30% tariff on any country that gives Cuba oil.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And just nobody cares about Cuba that much.

Right. Like. They, they’ve, they’re completely out on their own at this point. It’s, it’s geopolitically a big deal because if the United States captures [00:41:00] the all allegiance of Cuba, as much as we have Venezuela, which has been astounding, their level of cooperation,

Simone Collins: yeah.

So far

Malcolm Collins: we have no more geopolitical enemies.

Anywhere threatening to us especially if we’re able to get Greenland as well. Like America, the United States basically will own the Americas. Without it, it will have been one of the, the most stunning political coups in victories. Like any human has pulled off in history. Yeah. What this administration of the Trump administration has pulled off huge.

If they can neutralize Venezuela and Cuba as threats and then better yet expand our position in Greenland for people who don’t understand why Greenland is so important. It is. And a lot of people are like, well, you can already build military bases anywhere you want in Greenland. So why do you care about Greenland?

Because I, I point out that like milit missile pathways that are coming from China or Russia go over Greenland. Mm-hmm. Right? Like if, and if you have good installations in Greenland, you can stop them there. And [00:42:00] people are like, well, you could just build more. And it’s like, yeah, except Greenland has an independence movement right now, and Europe has shown themselves to be complete pussies to independence movements.

And as soon as we get an. Independent Greenland. Greenland is not self-sustaining. They basically live off of money for

. They basically live off of, of money from their host country right now.

Specifically, Greenland requires around $700 million a year in subsidies to function, which is why it would make sense for Denmark to want to offload it as well.

Malcolm Collins: And they, that means that they will all of a sudden be desperate for anyone who will give them money.

Mm-hmm. And if you look at the people of Denmark, the problem is, is basically nobody lives there. Like no, like basically nobody lives there geopolitically. It is an irrelevant number in

Simone Collins: Greenland. A lot of people live in Denmark.

Malcolm Collins: No, in Greenland. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, nobody lives in Greenland. And so, if.

You from a, from a geopolitical standpoint, it’s like the size of a town, right? And but the people who do live there are super urban monoculture, brain cooked, and [00:43:00] if they got their independence, they would be hesitant to form alliances with the United States. Very true. It would be. Very likely to form one.

It was China or Russia. Oh. What, what the Trump administration is doing right now, especially China, because I’ve noticed urban monoculture people do not care about China’s atrocities at all. It’s basically like,

Simone Collins: what atrocities,

Malcolm Collins: what atrocities. And so, Trump is absolutely, we do need to, to pressure this deal.

And it sounds like he’s got something. I, I don’t know what it’s gonna look like yet, but it sounds like he’s got something.

But if, if he gets those. To ex, that would mean that America not only like anyone who would have any reason to attack us, has to cross oceans. Right? But we’ve got on lock the entire.

Not just our continent, but every continent that a bridges us, that is anywhere close to us.

Simone Collins: It’s a general idea. Yep.

Malcolm Collins: It, it would be as safe as you could be as a country because nobody’s attacking us through [00:44:00] Mexico. Nobody’s attacking us through Canada. We’re energy independent, food independent.

Simone Collins: Well

Malcolm Collins: have a diversified economy.

Simone Collins: Mexico has a bit of a big gang problem. But I mean,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, but the gangs have no interest in like directly attacking the United States. And if they did the, it would give the United States a, a, an opportunity to fight back or a,

Simone Collins: I don’t know. I mean, I, that, that, it’s a very tough problem.

I mean, because what we’re looking at is a very grassroots gorilla insurgency essentially, that’s just running many parts of Mexico, functionally speaking. Yeah. Yeah, but it actually helps actually, we the, for the same reasons why we couldn’t durably take many Middle Eastern countries. We couldn’t durably take Mexico.

Oh, we could durably take Mexico. It’s extreme hard. I mean, maybe once you’ve like drone swarms or like, I don’t know, oh my gosh. We could just do a kingsman based like. Attack, you know, the, the, the second one where they had a drug laced or something that just selectively killed everyone who [00:45:00] consumed that drug.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Go, go for that strategy. Go for that. No, the, the, the problem. So, so we, we absolutely could Durably take Mexico. Yeah. What, what you’re not considering is the, the extremely low logistics cost of attempting to take Mexico because it is. Just on our southern border with roads going directly into it, rail lines going directly into it.

Simone Collins: Oh, it’s just a daytime commute.

Malcolm Collins: Multiple giant.

Simone Collins: You’ll be home in time for dinner.

Malcolm Collins: Gulfs in what? Like the Gulf of America, right. Is just like right there. Ar around most of Mexico’s land. The big problem is the the, the mountainous regions which make it you know. It makes it easier for gorillas to hide out and everything like that.

Mm-hmm. But then the other thing that you’ve gotta keep in mind, it’s, keep in mind how many of our armed forces just are Latin American, right? Like we have a lot of Latin American. There is not a cultural divide there. And if you did the military operations right, you would just have them led by Latin Americans and make it very much like a.

From a PR strategy. [00:46:00] Like did you know that the, the ICE officers who shot whatever woman were two gay Mexican ice officers?

Simone Collins: Renee. Good. Really?

So I wasn’t able to find evidence on the l, the gay connection, but I was able to find that the ones who shot the guy recently, , were two Hispanic officers.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. People were saying it’s, it’s wild that everyone who has died during this. On the, on, on the Democrat side , the, the deaths have been from a white shooter who shot undocumented immigrants by accident.

And on our side it has been multiple cases of like Hispanic shooters shooting white women or, or, or men. Which is ironic.

Simone Collins: There was, there was recently a court hearing where non-white people reported in, in court about their mistreatment. So it’s not only white people who are being impacted, but Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: well, the non-white

Simone Collins: people, it’s the white people.

Were were being deranged and, and blowing whistles and stuff. Actually, yeah. I mean, all the [00:47:00] instances that I saw reported in this court hearing were of people like. Trying to get to appointments or just driving. I think they weren’t actively trying to, oh, one woman was. But yeah, it was mostly people.

There’s been

a

Malcolm Collins: viral video recently of a black ice officer being called a house inward.

Simone Collins: Oh. After being like, are you a man? Are you a man? Yeah. You saw this? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Did that, did that person answer the question? Because it did. They didn’t sound No.

Malcolm Collins: Somebody was like. How dare you ask a woman if she’s a woman.

Why would you ask her that?

Simone Collins: He seemed genuinely confused though.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like, ‘

Simone Collins: cause this person was wearing a mask and they had long hair, but they sounded like a man. So you could understand how, if you weren’t from.

Malcolm Collins: Their culture

Simone Collins: and you’re just like, yeah, he’d be very confused. The

Malcolm Collins: funny thing is, is he didn’t even seem like an angry ice officer.

He

Simone Collins: just seemed like

Malcolm Collins: confused, normal black guy.

Simone Collins: Like yeah. He was just like, yeah, that like maybe hadn’t been exposed to super woke people, and so he is just like, you know, this. [00:48:00] Masked woman approaches. I mean, a person with long hair behind a mask, and then like, they talk and they sound like a man and he’s just like, are you a man?

And then they start going off on it,

Malcolm Collins: you know, that homicides of the United States went down 25% last year since, since ICE started.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Like it’s having a big effect. This was from a, a JD Vance speech, which I was really surprised to know. Mm.

So we just gotta keep winning, keep winning, keep it up.

I gotta make my video game, GGTA, Indianapolis, I, I would so wanna play that.

Simone Collins: My gosh. No, I don’t want, well, I mean, to make it realistic, you’d have to have the incessant whistling and I don’t know if people want to, there has to be an option to just turn it off.

Malcolm Collins: You tell me you

Simone Collins: have to turn,

Malcolm Collins: you brought a whistle to the Oscars, like

Simone Collins: No.

With the Grammys. Yeah. They were, they were their performative. I support the current thing whistle as one day I

Malcolm Collins: support the current thing. No, I, I want people to remember you know, when we’re talking about all of this remember who our biggest enemies are. They are domestic. They want to, you know, steal this [00:49:00] country indefinitely.

That is the plan, right? Like as soon as elections are compromised, it’s, and, and, and, and they get into power. That’s, that’s really bad. Going forwards, especially if they don’t think that they can win fair elections, which is going to become very hard post the 2230 redistricting. And if you look at voting patterns among younger individuals and, and in current trend shifts, it’s, it’s, it’s not good for them.

It is especially, you know, birth rates. So, you know, I think that they’re sort of like, we’ve, we’ve gotta do something at this point. So, so keep this in mind, and I think that, you know, when we’re working with something like Cuba. We don’t need the people in charge of Cuba to suffer. We just want a deal that puts them in our debt rather than China’s debt.

That’s really the gist of it.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They

can

Simone Collins: even

Malcolm Collins: keep pretending to be socialists. We don’t care, you know, whatever.

Simone Collins: What would be really cool is if. Somehow a bunch of a [00:50:00] one. They would never be incentivized to do this though. But a bunch of based American Cubans just went back to the country, flooded it, and had a better administration elected.

That would be really great. But I don’t know. I don’t think that’s gonna happen. But like, you know, people who had family history in the country who cared about it. But I just haven’t met a Cuban who. Would want to go back, so that’s too bad. But anyway, yeah, I, I

Malcolm Collins: talked to myself. I guess we could build like a large military base in uba and then I was like, oh yeah, Guantanamo.

Like we already have a large military base in

Simone Collins: Cuba. It could be larger. That’s the thing.

Malcolm Collins: It

Simone Collins: could be larger.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’ll always be bigger.

Simone Collins: And Trump is all about real estate development too. I mean, you know, before we make the new Gaza, maybe we could make the new Q, but

Malcolm Collins: when we talk about the grift

Simone Collins: running,

Malcolm Collins: and I’m like, you don’t hate these people enough.

One of the stats I heard recently that shocked me is in California, the average homeless person costs a state [00:51:00] $175,000 a year. So keep in mind how big this grift is. It’s not just Minnesota. They, they’ve been fighting throughout la hospice fraud. Th this fraud is all over the United States, and we need something like like, doge, but at a multi-state level.

I think at this point is where we need to go next.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you, Simone.

Simone Collins: Accountability. I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: All right. And be keeping an eye on the news. Let’s see what happens with Cuba.

Simone Collins: I will be watching with bated breath. Glad you highlighted this because you know it’s not related to to ICE and Minnesota and therefore.

No’s.

Malcolm Collins: It’s why you guys need to subscribe. It’s like, I, we have fans and they go, oh gosh, Malcolm everyone’s talking about Iran’s revolution right now. Like, why haven’t you done a video on that? And it’s like, because I didn’t wait till the algo to pick it up to start talking about it. Yeah, right. I, I did that video like two months ago, guys.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Everyone’s talking about Epstein and Ice now. There’s other things going on.

Malcolm Collins: All right, love you.

Simone Collins: Love you too.

Malcolm Collins: [00:52:00] And we will do the weekend episodes.

Simone Collins: Yeah, look at that. It’s just so much better. It’s just

Malcolm Collins: so much better.

Simone Collins: I cannot stop replaying Epstein Pizza Party.

Malcolm Collins: You like

Simone Collins: it? The problem is that Octavian. Because he is working right next to me, he’s like starting to just repeat the, sorry the chorus. And I’m like, hearing it come from a kid, I’m like, no, actually not for you.

Malcolm Collins: Epstein Pizza party.

Simone Collins: Like

Malcolm Collins: I’ll about played at the end of this video for a fans like get to hear the first Epstein Pizza, the party song. We’re gonna play it on ai right. Oh, oh, we’ll, we’ll have that video go live tomorrow.

Simone Collins: Oh gosh. Okay. Yeah. Hold on. He just like gets really mad about eating and I don’t know why because then he drinks,

Malcolm Collins: oh, look at doing that drift thing you’re talking about.

But it just seems too complicated to be worth it. It’s the effects will be practically unnoticeable and I do not think his eyebrows is actually doing what you think he’s doing. I think he’s [00:53:00] doing it in the prompts.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: It would be very hard to do, like structurally, you, you really need to structure every shot assuming that you’re going to do that which is really hard to do because the AI doesn’t know how to give you extra stuff.

Simone Collins: If I took time to try to make clips for you this evening, which you maybe consider using,

Malcolm Collins: it would take you way too much time. You, you’ve gotta understand you’re doing this with like a hundred clips.

Simone Collins: How many clips are in there? Really?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, probably. I I think it’s probably at least 25 or 30 maybe.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

25 or 30. But

Malcolm Collins: because, well, you are thinking that they’re all individual where many of them are made over multiple AI takes.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But you can get grok to make ten second split like clips

Malcolm Collins: as understanding, right. We don’t have those. That’s not what I made. ‘cause I didn’t expect that you would try to keep them all together because you’ve got to basically ungroup them and I don’t even know how to do that.

Simone Collins: I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Malcolm Collins: Many of the clips that look like one clip are multiple clips that we’ve gotta

Simone Collins: find a way

Malcolm Collins: to,

Simone Collins: right. But you [00:54:00] can make a single ten Second Rock clip.

Malcolm Collins: Right. So you would replace every animation in the song,

Simone Collins: potentially if they’re really good, because we’re only just learning how to do this.

And what I’m realizing is that what’s. Sky Brows is doing. I mean, not like we’re ever gonna get to that level, but

Malcolm Collins: No, I mean, I can see what he’s doing that makes it so different from what we’re doing. The core thing is, is he’s much more diligent about always using Midjourney for the original image and always using a prompt image that gives us style ideas so

Simone Collins: that he can do a

Malcolm Collins: more

Simone Collins: consistent style.

Consistent style, yeah. Yeah. Plus in his video prompts, I think it’s more along the lines of like. Panning and like the camera as it were, is moving the non-existent camera. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: He’s describing how the camera is moving, which we haven’t been doing, but he

Simone Collins: can. I just, I wanna see what it’s like to do that. I, I, I personally just [00:55:00] want to get better at it and learn so

Malcolm Collins: Well, we can do it with a different song.

Simone Collins: I like this song. Maybe I can do it forever. Everest to Nowhere. That’s the other song that just gets so stuck in, in my head. People like Everest. Everest. I

Malcolm Collins: can make

Simone Collins: another really catchy

Malcolm Collins: song. Just let me know and we’ll, we’ll do it. Okay.

Simone Collins: All the people crying, we don’t care. Oh, and I just love that our kids know about Everest being that really tall mountain where rich people go to die.

That’s how it is.

Malcolm Collins: Sky Brown’s recent Amelia video is really good, by the way.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, I mean, sky Brown videos in general are super fun. I love them.

Malcolm Collins: He made one that I don’t even understand how he made it. I don’t know. Did you see his Nvidia one?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So he made it about team America and did everything in a Team America style and even did the song and the style of the Team America song.

Simone Collins: Well, that’s, that seems doable with a lot of finagling, but.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I would require a lot of angling.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Respect, respect for Sky Eyebrows.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, I, I don’t like [00:56:00] that song very, I don’t like the, the way that video came out, but it was just really impressive that he did it. Anyway, I’ll get started here.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Dive into a provocative discussion with Malcolm and Simone Collins as they debunk two major myths: the idea that female-led societies are inherently peaceful, and the romanticized view of bonobos as gentle, utopian apes. Drawing from their book The Pragmatist’s Guide to Sexuality and fresh data from studies (including 2024 research on bonobo aggression), they explore how matriarchal structures—both in history and among bonobos—often lead to more violence, coercion, and hierarchy than expected. From evolutionary psychology on women’s submission fantasies to historical queens waging wars, this episode challenges progressive narratives about “natural” societies and argues for building better futures through pragmatism, not nostalgia.

Key highlights:

* Why bonobo society is a nightmare of sexual coercion and aggression.

* Data showing female rulers are more likely to start wars (27% higher in historical Europe).

* Evolutionary insights into gender dynamics and power.

* A rant on rejecting “hidden utopias” and advancing civilization.

If you enjoy data-driven takes on culture, evolution, and society, subscribe for more episodes from Based Camp! Check out our books and join the conversation.Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be going over two persistent myths in society, dissecting them, looking at the actual data to show that no. One female led societies historically are, and actually in modern times because we’re gonna be going into new data, not just the old data that we had in our book, the Pragma Guide to Sexuality are, are more violent than non-female led society.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, sure, of course

Malcolm Collins: that makes sense. But also the myth of the peaceful bonobo is where we are going to start because Bonobo society is actually. Horrifying.

Simone Collins: I don’t understand why people have this vision of the Gentle Ape. All, all apes and monkeys terrify me more than Pelicans, and there’s nothing scarier than a pelican.

Malcolm Collins: So we’re just gonna go over a bunch of data, mostly drawing from a chapter from the Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality about why. You shouldn’t let women run [00:01:00] things. And not just that, but how the progressive movement and the progressive part of the academic movement has this tendency to create these con conflation or confabulation of, unique examples or cherry picked data to try to say that we should go back to some earlier way of doing things or some earlier way is natural.

Simone Collins: Ah, the

Malcolm Collins: old sapien argument, fix it Dawn. Where they’re like, well, our ancestors were polyamorous. Look at the gentle bonobo. Look at the tribal they are. And I’m like, well.

First of all, that’s not true of all tribal groups, and it’s certainly not true of the more successful ones. You just chose one that fit the society that you wanted. You’re like, okay, where’s the most communist, the most matriarchal, the most? Okay. We will say, this is the model for early humans. Yeah. When that’s not actually the predominant evidence that we have, and we can do a separate episode on that.

But it’s the same with you know, with with [00:02:00] Bonobos. They go, oh, what, what? There was a period where like some researchers really romanticized Bonobos. And now we know that they basically made a mistake and they created, it is true that Bonobos do have a matriarchal society. It’s just not true that it’s a benevolent, matriarchal society.

So let’s go into this. All right.

Simone Collins: I wonder. Yeah, and I, I, I’m very curious to, to know when in history women were seen to be. Nice. I, I’m thinking maybe certainly with the Victorian era, this, there was this picture of like, the woman is being the moral anchor of the household, but yeah, I’m, this is gonna be fascinating.

Malcolm Collins: Some of our readers may be wondering at this point why we have not referred to Bonobos. It has become popular to cite Bonobo behavior as evidence that humans in their natural state would be free loving, polyamorous, matriarchal communities. This view of Bonobos has been aggressively pushed by those whose political agenda benefits from the belief that our distant ancestors lived in this kind of [00:03:00] utopia.

First, we would point to the fact that women tend towards submissive sexual fantasies much more than men. That this tendency does not appear to be socialized. And male humans almost certainly have an infanticide impulse. This serves as fairly concrete evidence indicating that early humans did not interact like Bonobos, or at least how people believe Bonobos interact.

Matriarchal utopias do not create evolutionary pressures, nudging women to become turned on by violence against themselves, or sexually aroused by men stomping on babies like lucy McGillicutty stomping in a great vat. A 2015 psychology study of 1000. This is not from the guide. I’m just sort of adding this for people who don’t know because in the guide I just citation, citation, citation, citation is, I’m just gonna go into some of this, right?

A 2015 Psychology Today Review of 1,516 participants found 52% of women fantasized about forced sex verse lower male rates for submission, often weekly [00:04:00] linked to implicit associations of sex with surrender rather than cultural norms. A 2006 sex role study confirmed women’s non-conscious sex submission link predicted lower arousal, if not acted on suggesting an innate component.

So I want pull out what both of those studies are saying. It’s saying that if a woman has a. Forced submission fetish, and she engages in vanilla sex. She will not become as aroused during that vanilla sex. As a woman. It’s not like it’s just an additive to her arousal. It is a necessary component of her arousal.

To reach a, a, a full arousal state. Mm-hmm. And, and in terms of this 52%, when you get to 52% of women fantasizing about forced sex, that means that it’s the normal thing to do. That means that, well, it’s not by a huge amount. It means that the women who don’t fantasize about this are the weird ones.

Simone Collins: It also just says something really sad about our evolutionary [00:05:00] history.

Throwing that out

Malcolm Collins: there. Yeah, it does. It does. It does because it there, I mean, clearly there was an evolutionary pressure to be turned on by that, right? Like

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Interestingly here, high resource women, eg. Executives report even more forceful submission fantasies as per a 2009 Journal of six research analysis.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That is important to note.

The reason why we need to bring this up that a woman’s desire to be subjugated goes up as she reaches higher levels of status and power within society is that means if you put a woman at the top of an organization or say a country, she will have a desire for. Not just her, but everything associated with her to be subjugated as a result of that.

Now, obviously we don’t always act on our desires, and obviously not all women, right? You know, Margaret Thatcher was a goat leader, right? But it does mean that. [00:06:00] On average, you’re going to get this tendency, and I can think that this might be why a lot of women politically hold views that lead to a culture or a country to end up in a position of subjugation if they feel like they are overly lauded or overly high status within that culture or country three.

Malcolm Collins: And the reason I point all that out is

Simone Collins: the stronger your survival instinct perhaps.

Malcolm Collins: If we lived in a, like if the forces that shaped our arousal pathways

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Came from environmental pressures and those environmental pressures and those environmental structures looked like the imagined social se say it up of, of Bon Nobo, there would be no reason to see this pattern.

Yeah. So basically we know. Even if they were right about Bonobos they would not be right about us living in that.

Simone Collins: We don’t have a matriarchal evolutionary history

Malcolm Collins: Exactly.

Simone Collins: No, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: To continue further. [00:07:00] The concept of peaceful hypersexual, matriarchal, polyamorous, bonobo is complete pseudoscience motivated by political fringe groups read The Naked Bonobo.

For a more in-depth review of the scientific literature about this species, it bucks the mainstream narrative. Though it certainly has its own acts to grind, real bonobo behavior is far more interesting than the myth and no less a living nightmare than the situation we propose for early human social structures.

. Some examples here. There have been instances of female bonobos holding other females, infants, lives hostage in exchange for sex. Imagine a woman picking up an infant by the head and threatening to ring its neck unless it’s unpopular. Mother went down on her. This is a, a, a real and repeatedly observed phenomenon among Bonobos, so yes.

Women are in charge in the most [00:08:00] horrifying way you could conceivably imagine. I would point out that this is not a behavior that we have ever observed in male chimpanzees. So male chimpanzees when they’re in charge do not do this to other female chimpanzees. Infants in exchange for sexual favors, female bonobos Do.

Although, I will admit this is a bit of a cop out because male chimpanzees practice infanticide, so they wouldn’t be in a situation in which the female would have another male chimpanzees or an unpopular male chimpanzees kid, and they wanted sexual access to her.

Malcolm Collins: To go further here, but this isn’t in the book, but just to add some color. A 2018 study on infant handling at the University of Oregons Bon Nova Enclosure found that adolescents, females unquote, carry away infants after grooming. Mothers, sometimes leading to tent stands offs that escalate to threats if demands, including socio sexual ones aren’t met.

I love the way that that’s met. [00:09:00] Not they’re threatening their lives in exchange for se, for for sexual favors, so, so. Really quite a horrifying society and it shows that women, even when we’re talking about non-human women are significantly more sociopathic in the way that they will treat other people when they enter a position of power.

And I know this sucks. But it’s just the way things are. Like it’s, and, and, and we all know it. Like we can look at all these studies. I’ve, I’ve meant to prep an episode on this where we look at the instances where women tried to have, like, all female offices. Oh. And

Simone Collins: they,

Malcolm Collins: we’ve

Simone Collins: really gotta do that.

Eventually. I think you wanted me to do it. Because I would get really

Malcolm Collins: well, there was also a good study that looked into not, not just, it was, oh yeah, what percent of women want a female boss? And it was like, extremely low. It was like two to 3% or something, if I remember correctly.

So there was a Gallup poll conducted in 1953 that showed only 5% of women preferred a female boss. , If you look at more recent studies, in [00:10:00] 2013, only, , 27% of women. And in 2014, only 25% of women preferred a female boss. Although it’s been ticking up, , by 2017, it’s only 20. 8% of women. , So what you see is women really do not like working under other women , a, , in any sort of a context here.

Malcolm Collins: Like women intuitively understand that women will treat them worse.

They know everybody knows this, right? Like, but we’ve made up this fantasy about the type of rulers that women are because. It fits this weird power inversion thing that’s important within the urban monoculture or sort of like social inversion thing. So anyway. High ranking females will fight to increase the social status of their sons, but not for their daughters.

So even in a matriarchal society, women care less for their daughters than their sons, which I find to be very fascinating. And low ranking female Bonobos. Trade sex [00:11:00] for food while high ranking females never do. This implies that low ranking females do not particularly enjoy doing this.

IE they’re being forced to be prostitutes to eat. So we know people act like what they’re seeing in Bonobos is this culture of free love, right? Because they see them, you know, going down on each other and stuff, right?

Simone Collins: And everyone’s having fun. No. No,

Malcolm Collins: no,

Simone Collins: no. The

Malcolm Collins: high status females never do this, this see what they see

Simone Collins: is they, well, what’s, what’s also, I kind of implied beneath this, and it’s something that you and I talk about a lot, that, that sex isn’t really about pleasure after a certain point.

You know, it’s, it’s more about power. And or self-perception. And I kind of have a, a feeling like this is more how these female beone bows are ex exerting and communicating and confirming their level in the hierarchy. Like what else would you [00:12:00] force other members of your troop to do aside from performed sexual s What we

Malcolm Collins: don’t, we do not see this behavior in chimpanzees either.

So we essentially what Bonobos are. It’s, it’s like somebody walked into a group of humans and they go, oh, look at these women always like going down on other women and like sleeping together and stuff like this. What a, what a wonderful free love culture. And then you go and, and, and sit down and you notice all but one of the women is like sitting on the floor and you’re like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

What’s, what’s going on here? And she goes, oh, these are my sex slaves. What you just walked into was one woman. Was a bunch of sex slaves, not a culture of sexual freedom. Okay. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You as a leftist were not prime to see that, but that is functionally what was happening.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And these women who were the sex slaves did not want to be doing that.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: it was grape [00:13:00] as, as Epstein would say, Gar grape soda and cheese pizza. So to go further here lower ranking females trading sex for food, implying coercion in bonobo groups. Low status females engage in social sexual behaviors. Chy, genital genital rubbing. To access food controlled by higher ranking individuals.

While dominance rarely reciprocate, a 1994 esno study observes that young or immigrant females use sex to appease alphas for resources suggesting it’s not purely enjoyable, but a survival strategy in unique hierarchies. A 2021 scientific report. Of quote unquote biological markets in Bonobos confirmed that not swollen, low value females groom and offer sex to swollen high value ones for food access, following supply and demand dynamics.

Now, here’s where it gets even crazier than everything else I said there. So you could be like, well. As bad as things [00:14:00] are in Bonobo tribes, yes. All of the women might be sex slaves. Yes. You know, you might only have like one or two actual high status women in a society. And that, but at least we are trading male rule.

For less male violence, uhhuh, the problem is, is this is factually untrue. Male aggression rates in Bonobos are higher or equal to those among chimpanzees.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: so male aggression rates are equal to higher than chimpanzees. Contrary to peaceful stereotypes, male bonobos exist higher rates of intragroup aggression than male chimpanzees.

A 2024 current biology study comparing Coke. Ari Bonobos and Bombay Chimpanzees found Bonobo males engaged in 2.8 times more aggressive interactions overall, three times more Physical ones like pushing slash biting, though less lethal.

For the bonobo lovers out there, the rates are actually even [00:15:00] higher than we had thought originally. , Specifically a 2024 study in current biology showed that in Bonobo’s, , aggression was 2.8 x to three x more violent or more physical as they word it, than chimps.

Malcolm Collins: Aggressive Bay bonobo Males also achieve higher mating success similar to chimps Prairie 2023 PMC review.

So. Bonobos don’t just do sex more, but women also, female Bonobos are also turned on by the. Physically violent and aggressive male bonobos because they are having more sex with them. And this is something we see in chimps as well. And I’m sure we see in humans as well. This is, this is what women are looking for in a partner.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Now what is fascinating is that it does still appear that female bonobos, when they are in positions of power [00:16:00] within a tribe, are more turned on by acting dominant themselves towards especially other females. And this may make them more optimized for positions of power than human females. , IE If human females actually acted like Bonobos became very aggressive controlling monsters when they came into positions of power and didn’t want anyone else to subjugate them, then , it, we may have fewer externalities in our society from putting them in power, which ironically is exactly the opposite stereotype we have of Bonobos.

Malcolm Collins: Now as a caveat here, just like to give Bonobos one point, they have lower rates of lethal aggression.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: then ships. So good job.

Simone Collins: Yay. For not being total

Malcolm Collins: psychopaths.

Simone Collins: No, they’re total psychopaths. They’re total

Malcolm Collins: psychopaths.

Simone Collins: I mean, what is the point of emotionally and, and, and mentally torturing someone if they’re dead, you can’t.

Okay. [00:17:00]

Malcolm Collins: That is actually the bonobo mindset. Yeah. The

Simone Collins: bonobo

Malcolm Collins: clean.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I love that. I know. I, it, it’s really like they think that they’ve entered this society of like, equality just because a woman’s a top. And it reminds me of like, the thunderdome, like max. Road Warrior, road Warrior three where it’s, it is run by that woman who’s like very violent and aggressive, and that’s the way you should think of Bonobos.

They have a thunderdome where people fight with weapons. They have a, a, a female running it, but it’s not, not nice. All right. There is no perfect society out there hidden in the midst of our distant history. Enjoyed by some undiscovered tribe or orchestrated by another species of ape. People desperately want to believe that if they just travel far enough back and pull back that last bit of dense foliage, they will find like some sort of social El Dorado.

Some obvious and easy utopia. The pragmatists of the world know where our hidden utopia lies. [00:18:00] It is not lived out by some far away tribe. You’re described on a dusty tablet chiseled by our ancestors. Our ideal society lies in the future. We have the power to create optimal societies aren’t easy, they aren’t obvious, and they certainly aren’t about following some simplistic ideological doctor into the letter.

An enlightened society will be nuanced, slow to build and will need. To constantly experiment. Citizens of a truly perfect society must update their beliefs about the world as they try new things to see whether or not they fail. No one alive today knows how to create this glittering society. Not yet. The best anyone of our generation can hope for is to climb Mount Nebu and catch a glimpse of what we might be For now, we must be content with our lot as , one of the many diligent marching in the desert. We cannot allow ourselves to be distracted by the glittering idols. Simple, easy answers. Every day, we reap the reward of ancestors who suffered so that our species might [00:19:00] ascend from the total depravity of our primordial conditions and basal instincts.

We spit on their sacrifice by not doing. Our part to advance the flame of civilization because it is a flame which holds back the darkness both in the world and within ourselves. And then I have a, oh, sorry. We just blacked out there. Did we just go on a crazy rant? But you see, I was driven by madness and how stupid the concept was that there is some hidden perfect way of living, but let’s go beyond, the bonobo miss here. What happens when women rule an otherwise male dominated society? The real world scenarios in which this has happened, certainly deice stereotypes. You can see we were so much less biased back then. We really

Simone Collins: were

Malcolm Collins: a study investigating rulers between. 1480 and 1913 found Europe’s queens were 27% more likely to wage war according to economists or orian dub, NSP [00:20:00] Harish.

This is a fun, historical nugget. No, it probably doesn’t say anything innate about female rulers. I would change that now, but. Let’s hear my explanation from back then when I’m trying to hedge my bets.

Simone Collins: Yeah, let’s do this.

Malcolm Collins: . Queenly war mongering was. More likely a product of the societies in which Queens lived. When you break these stats down further for married versus unmarried queens, married queens appear far more likely to go to war, though unmarried queens had war declared on them more often. Interesting, interesting.

During period of history, a married queen could socially pressure her husband’s country to go to war with her two quote unquote. Protect her while other kings could not do the same with their wives. Countries easily making war slightly easier, and thus we’re tempting for women. So, you’re people who don’t understand what I’m saying there it was considered like if you took a husband from like the royal family.

If I’m a British and I take a. A son from the royal family of Germany to to, to be my husband. And now I, the [00:21:00] British Queen declare war on France. I can go to Germany and be like, oh, I’m just a womanly woman. I I need your help. Are you really gonna let your son get crushed by the Germans or by the French?

And they go, ah, I, I guess. But if you, if you marry their daughter, they’ll like, well, I married her to you ‘cause I thought you were strong. Like, I’m not gonna go to war with you. Right. So women basically got this cheat card for, for certain wars.

Simone Collins: My, my hunch when hearing you talk about it this time around was that women are, at that time and even now today, just don’t get that much firsthand exposure to combat.

Whereas men in positions of leadership are more likely to have at some point been exposed to combat, combat it firsthand. And so they just were more easily able to abstract it and not see just how tremendously horrific it can be.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe

Simone Collins: that must, I can’t not be a factor. The more removed you are from something, the easier it is for you to make sociopathic decisions about [00:22:00] it.

Malcolm Collins: Or you could just say that women are terrible because we’re gonna go to the

Simone Collins: next. Women are terrible. The alternate name for this podcast.

Malcolm Collins: Simone, you chose the bear. You chose the bear.

Simone Collins: God. Ah, no one will ever let me live this down.

Malcolm Collins: No, I love it. I love it. Anyway, and, and by the way, she didn’t choose the bear in the classic woman bear in the woods thing. It was when a bear had built a thing under a guy’s house. And she’s like, it’s just not trying hard enough. But the, she, I, I love that as like a, a slaying for an overly woke woman.

Like she chose the bear. She chose the bear. She chose the bear. Oh

Simone Collins: my god.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so a 2022 Forbes review of Global Leaders found 36% of female heads of state had initialized [00:23:00] military disputes versus only 30% of males.

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: So even today, women are more likely to start wars. A 2022 Conflict management and peace society study on rebel groups showed conflicts last longer when females are mobilized as fighters, as they enhance bargaining leverage and sustain war efforts.

Echoing how Queens leveraged alliances. So when women are fighting in war, it lasts longer. Medieval Chronicles, EG Saxo, grammatic Guested, Donna Moore admire warrior, Queens like vid, who led battles while preserving, quote unquote modesty, suggesting historical respect for female aggression without de feminization.

Simone Collins: Wait, sorry. In what way did she preserve modesty? I mean, everyone who’s not. Trying to die on a battlefield is wearing as much armor as they can. I mean, there’s gammon for example. It’s not modest [00:24:00] ‘cause I’m trying to cover up, it’s modest. ‘cause I don’t want someone to cut off my head with a sword. Right?

Like that’s the design of armor. I,

Malcolm Collins: I,

Simone Collins: I’m so confused. I think

Malcolm Collins: they were just impressed that she didn’t dress like a ma. When they say modesty, I think they mean not dressing in male armor and

Simone Collins: stuff like that. Oh. That she would like, I don’t know, rode side saddle or something. Which actually would pretty like a

Malcolm Collins: stern and like

Simone Collins: especially armor, a battlefield side saddle looks like it was really hard to do that.

People are doing jumps and stuff side saddle. Can you imagine? I can’t, I can’t stand a horse. First thing I ever did in a horse was fall off of it.

Malcolm Collins: If we wanna go back to Bonobos to learn a bit more about how they structure their societies.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So Bonoa societies are female dominated overall, but males inherit maternal ranks through pathy, staying in natal groups, allowing high status sons to outright some females.

A 2010 Max Plank Institute study found that. Matrilineal presence boosts sons dominance and mating success, [00:25:00] creating a linear male hierarchy where the top males, often the sons of alpha females can eclipse lower females. This contrast with chimpanzees where male coalitions dominate. And keep in mind the way that males keep power in chimpanzees is through coalition building among males.

Okay,

Simone Collins: so you wanna be a dragon woman, Nepo baby. Is that what I’m getting from this?

Malcolm Collins: Well, what you wanna be is the chimp. You want to understand that only through coalition building with other men can men maintain the higher spot within a hominid society.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: Bonobos keep men at the bottom by ensuring that men stay a strict hierarchy.

That really has no reason to make alliances among itself outside of, with the women, the, the high side of alpha women and stuff like that. High ranking females for owning sons of her daughters. Bonobo mothers invest heavily in sons social advancement, but not their daughters. As females immigrate to maturity while males stay.

A 2019 current biology study showed mothers intervene in [00:26:00] conflicts to elevate sons status, tripling their paternity success by guarding. Matings and forming coalitions against rivals behaviors absent from their daughters. This maternal bliss is linked to indirect fitness games as the sons produce more grandchildren.

Simone Collins: Aw.

Malcolm Collins: So you see it, it is useful for women to be nepotistic about their sons as Bonobos.

Simone Collins: As Bonobo Novos.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway that’s, that’s what I got to say about that. What, what are your thoughts on, on female led societies and why they’re so terrible?

Simone Collins: I mean, I think on, on the human level, ‘cause we talked a lot about Bonobos. I think there’s just a lot of evolutionary drives that women have that, I mean, we, we’ve talked in other episodes about how women are engaged in a lot of mait guarding behavior, for example. And, and, and tend to tear each other down.

Subconsciously, like it’s not intentional but that [00:27:00] there, there tends to be among female humans, a lot of. Make guarding behavior, or even within like, we’ll say a harem environment, you’re still competing for resources in favor and security. And so in the end, other women are just inherently a threat.

They’re a threat to your resources or they’re a threat to your access to high quality men. And so it’s really hard. To create an inclusive female environment where women aren’t even if, like logically and ideologically, they really want to be supportive of each other, where they’re not taking each other out.

And I think a lot of that is just downstream of. The instincts that were bred into women in societies where men were linchpins in, in resource provision, especially in those periods of human history where. [00:28:00] A very small number of men did most of the reproducing implying that women were like competing for the best men and also competing for the resources that those men had.

Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it does make sense. And I think if I was gonna say like, why you see, I mean, I think that there’s a lot of individual reasons why you see this, but I also think that the. Way that women resolve disputes works really well when they are in the submissive role, which is sort of aggressive.

Socializing, bickering, scheming.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s really bad if they’re in the dominant role.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I’m I mean, Catherine the Great did seem to do a really good job in her leadership position. Queen Elizabeth, I first famously successful in her leadership position. Queen Victoria was seen as a, a good leader, as was Queen Elizabeth ii. There, there are lots of. Great female leaders. Of course, then there’s, you know, bloody Mary who came right before [00:29:00] Queen Elizabeth.

I, Cleopatra was a hot mess for her country as much as she did a great job in the beginning. But it was more just by courting popularity among the common people and like actually pretending to be Egyptian instead of,

Malcolm Collins: it’s really only been a very small handful of, of good female leaders and England’s had a lot of ‘em.

If, if you look at other countries. Typically like when, when you have like female Egyptian Pharaohs, you’re like, oh, a dark age is about to come. Like, that’s, that’s the way it, it normally works. It just depends on, on what area, region you’re talking about. But I don’t think this is necessarily because of the females themselves.

I think it’s because most heavy, you know, hard cultures would prohibit a female leader and so. By the time you have a female leader get into power, you know that it’s already a very,

Simone Collins: yeah. This was Plan D. It was not plan A, B, or C. Yeah, yeah. There was that, and that was certainly the case with Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth.

King Henry Thei tried so freaking hard. They were there the [00:30:00] whole time and he is like, no,

Malcolm Collins: no,

Simone Collins: no, no, no. It’s never gonna happen.

So we’re conflating two people here. , One was Mary Bloody Mary. , This was, , king Henry’s oldest daughter who was totally evil and just murdered tons and tons of people. , And then the other was Mary Queen of Scotts another evil Catholic, who Elizabeth locked up and tried to have her killed. On three separate occasions.

The reason she was even in England and needed to be locked up was because her, , well, so this guy murdered her husband and then she married him. And then she also wanted to kill a ton of people. , But that’s a whole other thing. So sorry here that we conflate the two evil Catholic Mary Queens of this period.

So if you are a Tudor Queen and you ever run into any Catholics named Mary, keep in mind they’re basically telling you, I.

Speaker 7: Nice to meet you, . Listen, if you ever need anybody murdered. Please give me a call and you, you’re [00:31:00] giving him card. No.

Code of ethics. I will kill anyone anywhere. Children, animals, old people, doesn’t matter. I just love killing

Speaker 6: you.

Simone Collins: But I’m, no, he had one of the

Malcolm Collins: worst queens in British history and one of the best.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard.

Malcolm Collins: It’s also interesting now that I’m just thinking about him and his daughters, the, the mothers the first one with his, his

Simone Collins: his brothers,

Malcolm Collins: right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The, the, the,

Simone Collins: his brother’s widow. But the marriage was annulled. She swore up and down that it was never consummated.

Malcolm Collins: The with the brother? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Catherine, the Spanish queen. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then she ends up having the, the evil daughter. , And, and Mary Queen of Scots was just a purely evil person.

Like if, if you read history she’s one of the most comically evil characters in all of history. She, [00:32:00] she like famously her sister who. You know, after she had put on these trials and just done, you know, hundreds of executions,

Simone Collins: well that, and that’s because a lot of people were, were using her.

I mean, a a lot of it had to do with misaligned incentives. When you are no a debit, you have to take out anyone who threatens your position.

Malcolm Collins: So after she was put in the, the Tower of London by Elizabeth. Mm. Elizabeth was like, look, I really don’t wanna have to kill you. I’m gonna try to give you the best life I can.

She then attempts to kill Elizabeth. In spite of that, Elizabeth again comes and says, stop trying to get me killed. I’m really trying my best to give you a good life here.

Simone Collins: No. The problem though was that there were lot, plenty of people who did not care really, whether Elizabeth died or not.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Mary was. Found organizing these plots.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But people were telling Mary that Elizabeth and her supporters were out to kill her.

Malcolm Collins: No, she, she was clear they could have killed her at any point. They obviously [00:33:00] just go and execute her When, when, after the second murder attempt. Right? Like they could have killed her at any point.

She was in the tower. There was no political fallout. It was purely a net negative for Elizabeth. It was purely an act of mercy to leave her alive. But Mary. Was just incapable of not trying to take the most evil choice with every single thing that she chose in her entire life. Evil maxing, that’s, that’s we joke about, but,

Simone Collins: I feel bad for

Malcolm Collins: her. And it’s weird to think that that Elizabeth’s mother was seen as, as, as like the more cunning and evil one, and Mary’s mother was seen as the like finder, more witness one. But I think that’s part of what led Mary to become so evil is she was very easy for the people around her to manipulate and Elizabeth was not.

So

Simone Collins: well, yeah. Plus you kind of had like a Nepo baby family versus a very, very cunning.

Malcolm Collins: Of [00:34:00] certain

Simone Collins: family. Yeah. Sociopathic, mercenary family, you know, like this, this was this, that family had clawed their way into influence versus a, you know. Catherine had just married into it and had not, not only, you know, connections at, at the height of power in her own home country, but also with the papacy.

So, you know, she was extremely privileged and didn’t have to be good. In fact, she never even really learned proper English. You can see from her spelling in her letters that she still pronounced things with a really bad accent throughout her life because she would just spell his up phonetically.

Malcolm Collins: Even if you are a Catholic, you should hate her because if she had just had grace and told her family members to get the annulment for the king,

Simone Collins: yeah, she

Malcolm Collins: could have lived out her life in luxury,

Simone Collins: in true luxury. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But she refused

Simone Collins: and she had such a good go of it. And she was also just having all these miscarriages.

Like if I were her person, I’d be like, yeah. [00:35:00] And also like, I’d be grossed out by the fact that my husband was sleeping with all these other women and like clearly wanted to end. Like, if, if you wanted to end your marriage with me and you’re clearly trying, I would be like, well, yeah, like if you love someone, let them go.

I don’t want to, like, I, I do not wanna be a ball and chain. I don’t know what kind of woman wants to be. I don’t know what her game was. It, it was, it was very stubborn. And that’s. And so, yeah. Not, not great. Not great.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Not, not great. But just to think if she had just not been such a prick, the, the Protestant movement might have just died out.

Simone Collins: My God. You’re right. Yeah. That is, that is really something. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But to be too arrogant to learn the local language and just, come on, come on. She was always gonna be that way. She was always gonna be a nightmare.

Simone Collins: God, that cathedral in St. Andrew’s then probably could still be standing. Right?

There’s so many gorgeous cathedrals in the UK that would not be

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But we probably would’ve never had the alignment.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I mean a lot of [00:36:00] conservatives these days, like I should do a video that the Enlightenment was a very good thing. It was the enlightenment was like the idea that like our problems, our wokeness problems stem from the Enlightenment is a IOP on people.

Mm-hmm. Like, the enlightenment was everything that we need to return to. It is what we lost. With wokeness, it was wind Civilization made a major jump forward.

Simone Collins: Yeah. The, the enlightenment was gentleman scientists. The, the enlightenment was tech pro accelerationism of its time. Yeah. It was not, it was not what people Yeah, it was not woke.

Wokeness is the esoteric hermeticism of. Of our time, and you’re,

Malcolm Collins: you’re absolutely right. Woke is, in a way, a sort of mystical framework.

Simone Collins: It would sort of, it is a mystical framework. It is based on feelings. It is based on what you wish were true. Whereas the enlightenment. Is a, a very like we can work [00:37:00] this out.

We can reason this. It, it’s, it’s very masculine at its core, not feminine. And I mean that’s, we, you know, in our episode about peacocking that sadly bombed, the reason why men stopped dressing in a very fanciful manner was also due to the enlightenment. It was because they became focused more on form than.

Sorry, on function then form. Yeah. And that’s why suddenly clothing wasn’t like, you know, it was like we, we dropped the lace, we dropped the buttons, we dropped the frills, we dropped the, the man dresses and the heels and we got to work. And that’s awesome

Malcolm Collins: that, that actually a good episode is how the enlightenment created masculinity, because before that, men, you know, dressed very eff

Simone Collins: Oh yeah.

No, even, even military dress was.

Malcolm Collins: Was very what today we think of as, as, as

Simone Collins: well, literally the CT was, was modified for, what was it? Like Otto, an Ottoman military uniform. Like all of the super fancy [00:38:00] stuff was, was the heel, like I was saying, the high heel was taken. From, what was it? Persian warriors who, who rode on a horseback and needed the heel to, to be able to stand up and do archery from stirrups on a horse while moving.

Like all of the stuff that is fru fashion came from military, military dress. Was fabulous.

Malcolm Collins: So, and also, and the enlightenment was when some guys were like, well, I mean, shouldn’t masculinity be more about like stoicism and not wasting money and, you know, focusing on things that actually matter for civilization?

And then you had the colonization period during the enlightenment.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which was huge as well. And that was when you did the good colonization, not just the exploitative type, you know, nation building in other countries. And

Simone Collins: yeah, no, it, it was, it was, it was. Space, space style, final frontier colonization.

It was, we are going to go to the unknown lands. I mean, of course any leftist is gonna be like, are you kidding me? The Americas were fully populated with indigenous Americans. It’s not [00:39:00] the unknown open frontier

Malcolm Collins: which is, I get it. I mean, not exactly true. The, the, the diseases that the Europeans did not mean to bring over with them had mostly wiped out.

Most of the American population at that point? It

Simone Collins: was, oh, so they were already,

Malcolm Collins: it was heavily depopulated,

Simone Collins: decimated, I wanna say decimated. Were they more than decimated?

Malcolm Collins: If I remember correctly,

Simone Collins: I don’t, I don’t actually know, like, how much I

Malcolm Collins: wanna say it was just 98%.

Simone Collins: Wow. Also, decimation as a practice make any, do you understand the reasoning behind it? Why would you kill 10% of your troops even if they were naughty?

That doesn’t make like you need them unless they were too, too expensive to feed and you were just trying to like save money while also putting them in line. Do you understand the reasoning and behind decimation?

Malcolm Collins: So I, I mean obviously it’s, it’s a punitive thing. It’s so that you and everybody understands what it means to failure.

To fail in an instance or in a, in a case where failure rates could be extremely [00:40:00] high. So, it, yeah, it says here,

Simone Collins: okay, so you as a general would decimate your troops when they behaved really poorly because you knew that basically if they didn’t shape up, you probably lose like 50% of them in your next style anyway.

Well, that’s the way

Malcolm Collins: things were historically. If, if, if a route happened, everyone died.

Simone Collins: Okay. So yeah, better to, to lose 10% and scare ‘em straight than to lose 90% next time you go to battle. That’s the

Malcolm Collins: reason. Yeah. So it says, the commonly cited figure is that diseases killed approximately 90% of the Native American population.

Over the centuries following contact with some sources specifying up to 95% in certain regions or overall. So yeah, a, a and then, yeah. Yep. So 90 to 95% it was, it was com It wasn’t decimation. It was the decimation is what was left.

Simone Collins: Yeah. My God. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: that’s so, so, yeah, America was, I, I, I

Simone Collins: know you didn’t mean to,

Malcolm Collins: not a, a pleasant thing to say, but and it’s one of the things that I also almost wanna do an episode on is there have been various times in human history where a group has lived through a post apocalypse.

[00:41:00] Yeah. And we. Yeah, as we were expanding in the, in the west and in the Americas the, the native populations that we were encountering from their perspective, were living in a post-apocalyptic world.

Simone Collins: That’s crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Their entire, like, when we talk about how Savage many of them were, I mean,

Simone Collins: well, yeah, it sounds kind of, yeah, it was very road warrior, right?

It was like, we’re just gonna raid other groups. And they were

Malcolm Collins: acting like Road Warrior Raiders because they were living in a post apocalypse. Damn. There was still like one or two peaceful settlement, not like one or two, but there were, there were like. I’d say it seems, I, I don’t, I don’t know. I wanna say like

Simone Collins: no.

Well, the, the peaceful ones I learned about, I learned about in school in California, like the Elone because, I don’t know, like maybe in the Western context,

Malcolm Collins: the Cherokee were the ones who got screwed over the most. They were, they were fairly peaceful, westernized.

So there, there were, there were some.

Peaceful Indians. But, but a lot of, oh,

Simone Collins: someone told me recently someone I think, who listens to this podcast that the Inuit or above Repopulation rate, by the way.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, wow. Yeah. The and, and so much of Native American history, we totally have to do a video on, on Native [00:42:00] Americans. Like you’re, you’re just told lies like the the whole, if you’ve been told the story about the giving or thinking about giving infected blankets to Native Americans,

Simone Collins: oh

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

What is fake

Simone Collins: news?

Malcolm Collins: Not. Told about that story is the city was under siege.

There were women and children in the city. That very group of Native Americans had wiped out women and children in other cities. They had siege. Mm um, like they, they were in an existential fight for their lives. And the Native Americans were regularly committing war crimes.

Like anybody who wasn’t stupid would’ve done the the infected blankets routine there.

By the way, if you’re like, well, the Indians were being massed and that’s why they attacked the fort. No, no, no, no. That wasn’t why the Indians attacked the fort. They attacked the fort because they stopped getting random gifts for context on what caused Potomacs war. After the British defeated the French in 1763, they took control over former French territories in the Great Lakes region in the Ohio Valley.

This shifted alliances and [00:43:00] policies towards Native American tribes who had often cited with a French. So specifically, they did this because the. The Indians of this area had previously cited with their enemies and killed their people. British Commander Lord Jeffrey. Amherst implemented cost causing measures, implementing, reducing gifts and trade goods to tribes, which fueled resentment.

Ottawa Reader Potomac rallied the coalition of tribes, including the Ottawa, Delaware, , Lenape, Schwane, Mingo, Ajay, and the others to resist British expansion. So specifically, this war was motivated because, , the Indians. Stopped getting gifts. Stopped getting gifts. They were like, okay, now we gonna kill you.

, The conflict was brutal, was often estimates of around 2000 civilian settler deaths. , And this particular settlement had 300 people in it. , And if we’re looking for the total deaths that potentially came of this, , IE, of the, the smallpox deaths, it was only 60 to 80 Native Americans. That is [00:44:00] talked about and not the horror that led to it’s talked about, I think shows the historical bias in how we remember these events.

And that in the eyes of progressives and your professors growing up, white lives are literally irrelevant.

Simone Collins: I also learned though that at one point. Benjamin Franklin made up stories around native American war crimes to. I think in, in relation to the Revolutionary War, implying that the red coats, that is, say the British were working with these war crime committing na Native Americans.

I’m sure he was just using stories of actual atrocities committed in other contexts. But just made the connection with the British. Yeah. Data. Americans

Malcolm Collins: did a lot of scalping and stuff. Like they did a

Simone Collins: lot of No, no, no, no. Well, one, the whole shell thing that I told you about in relation to Pocahontas. Oh yeah.

Were

Malcolm Collins: they, they killed This was the witch tribe. Pocahontas tribe.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Where

Malcolm Collins: they would pick off your skin was a shell until you died.

Simone Collins: I think they scrap scraped it. I don’t think you like

Malcolm Collins: scraped it. Yeah. While you were tied to like a, a post.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

But yeah, no, so I, I’m not saying that they didn’t do that.

I’m just saying like. There was, there was [00:45:00] unfair propaganda and stuff. But yeah. Anyway, yeah, we should, we should do something on that. ‘cause another person who listens to this podcast was telling me how, like, based on their calculations or telling us actually via email, I think that most Native American tribes are functionally extinct if you define.

Like pure, like both sides, like 100% inherited Native American, which many tribes do define as like, to be a member of this tribe, you have to be both mother and father of this tribe, and also to be culturally of the tribe, which I think he, he said was defined as dreaming in that native language. Like people just aren’t.

Oh,

Malcolm Collins: oh yeah. No. If, if you are going by those standards, I’d say almost every Native American tribe is extinct.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I, and I just think that this is just functionally true, even if you’re talking about some of the more successful tribes like say the Seminoles or something like that. You know, there, there are, kids are growing up with TVs and iPhones and, and, and Western culture,

Simone Collins: so they’re dreaming.

[00:46:00] Botched English.

Malcolm Collins: Disgusting. Which is a disgusting, a, a bigger factor for their daily lives.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Because the, the tribes that survived often survived by leaning into capitalism, you know? And, and even when they perform well in that, they got absorbed entirely. I, I don’t think that there are functionally.

There, there might be like a few meaningfully unique native tribes left, but not really in terms of what, what you’re talking about here. So that, that’s another thing, right? I, I left the road with like, the, the land acknowledgements and stuff like that in their speeches. Which,

Simone Collins: oh, I just heard of maybe unblocked and reported, I can’t remember where on what podcast I heard about this, but about a professor who, I think felt obligated or was pressured to, or possibly even like forced to by policy, make a land acknowledgement. But his was very passive aggressive and that he actually did the research and discovered, oh no, he’s like, by the, like this theory of land ownership, this tribe doesn’t own the land. It was like the, like some, some theory of ownership.

That means [00:47:00] like if you work the land, you own it. But this Native American tribe had never, this indigenous tribe had never actually. Cultivated the land. So he’s like, by this definition of land ownership, they never owned it and then he like proceeds to do his lecture. No. I think that for that reason, his syllabus was removed from the university website and the university apologized for his.

Totally. That’s not the

Malcolm Collins: way to do a passive aggressive. How you do a passive aggressive land acknowledgement is you research it and you start the land acknowledgement out totally normal. Like, you know, we think the X Tribe for this land, who were then massacred by the Y tribe. Who were then massacred by the Z tribe.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And then we massacred,

Simone Collins: no. Yeah, yeah. This tribe who rightfully owned this land after massacring, the so and so who had massacred the so and so before them who had massacred the so and so using the following explicitly violent methods. That would be fantastic.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. What you do then, you then, and the lagged acknowledgement.

And so, we massacred that tribe to, [00:48:00] you know, out of revenge to honor their

Simone Collins: tradition of ownership. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. What you pointed out, what I’m saying is that you structure it as a, the, the point of the land acknowledgement is to say that we are showing our gratitude to the first tribe that owned the land by slaughtering the tribe that took it from them.

Simone Collins: As

Malcolm Collins: distribution?

Yes. As retribution for the land being

Simone Collins: taken. Oh, we, yeah. Yeah, because they, how dare they take it from your results? How dare they take

Malcolm Collins: it from

Simone Collins: the very

Malcolm Collins: first person who walked

Simone Collins: through here. We were doing, we were just. Yeah, it was revenge. What

Malcolm Collins: it

Simone Collins: was, that’s what it was, was revenge. Yeah.

For

Malcolm Collins: the other Native Americans. Don’t

Simone Collins: you know? Yeah. So sorry, not sorry you were wrong. Oh my God. Okay. Well,

Malcolm Collins: love

Simone Collins: you. I, there’s a dinosaur in my left I’m gonna blow out, so I have to run. You want Burmese m chicken and rice, perhaps?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That’ll be easy.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I

Simone Collins: love you. Should what?

Malcolm Collins: Thank you for your grilled cheese today.

That was really delicious.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: I am eating two meals today. [00:49:00] This is how you know today is a day of luxury.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And it was on homemade sourdough bread. All ingredients sourced from our. That you can read. No, no mystery ingredients.

Malcolm Collins: Finally getting to a point where a lot of people are finding no bugs on our fab, which I’m really excited about.

And tomorrow by the way, I was thinking of running the star Wars episode just ‘cause I wanna see people’s reactions to it. You okay with that one? Yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. Let’s do it.

Malcolm Collins: All right. I love you to death. So it sounds like we lost it. Ghost writer.

Simone Collins: Well, no, I’m happy it happened and I’m really grateful for everything we learned from that.

Now I just have to figure out how we can do it.

Malcolm Collins: I think creating an AI agent to do it, I,

Simone Collins: well, I’ll figure that out with all the time. I don’t have, it’ll happen. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll make an agent to figure it out for me. It’ll be great.

Malcolm Collins: You can do it. With the agents on our fab right now, they can at least do stuff like that pretty well.

Simone Collins: Oh, help me out. Let’s do it. Okay. Love you. Oh my God. He has such a blow up. There’s like. A [00:50:00] way, like my mercenary approach to life and the world and relations

Malcolm Collins: mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Is unfortunately, if I’m gonna be leading, homeschooling, going to become like disproportionately represented in our children. Because it’s already showing up in things like, you know how I, I deleted all the fun apps from our kids’ phones and or tablets for the end of the night.

I just put on like learning apps and stuff. But, but even then, the other night. I asked Octavian, I’m like, can you set up a tablet for India and like put on a PBS kids show or something. And he’s like, only if she does two lessons first. ‘cause I am super mercenary with him. I’m like, you get to take a break after you finish like three math exercises.

Like

Malcolm Collins: only if she does two lessons and love that.

Simone Collins: Oh God,

Malcolm Collins: hey, he’s gonna be managing her education one day. So, you know.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. And well, and I bet you were wondering why he was being so good when you. Came to help him get set up while we recorded. [00:51:00] My, my mercenary exchange with him today was he was allowed to watch the rest of that Mr.

Beast Games episode if he finished a bunch of lessons. And boy did it ever. I, I’ve never seen him focus like that before. Which I just actually came a, across a study showing that leaning into your strengths and interests with A DHD is like the top cure. So like, I get it, but. Man, he blew through it.

Then he watched that episode and then tried to cheat and watch another one. And I immediately snatched up his laptop. He pouted big time. I thought he was just gonna tell me he hated me and that there was gonna be nothing I could do for the rest of the day. And then I had this long conversation with him of like, listen, if we show you a thing and then you behave poorly after it, are we ever gonna wanna show you that thing again?

Like, obviously not. And I thought he, it was just gonna go all over his head and he is just gonna be mad at me all day. And then suddenly he’s all like. Blasting through his math lessons and then, you know, like you come to the room and he is like, oh, well can I take [00:52:00] down my whiteboard and my, my number magnets to work downstairs?

Yeah, I gotta do some math like the, because now, but it’s all like so instrumental in mercenary and I actually really like it because I don’t think people should like. Part of me is like, oh, I, I’m doing this wrong because you should just love math for math’s sake. And you should just love learning words and phonics.

Yeah, just for, but honestly, it’s a little tedious getting some of these fundamentals in place. And it’s, I’m just realizing it’s, it’s just bribery all the way down. And I don’t know, I feel very conflicted about it.

Malcolm Collins: I love it. Is he, is he learning, by the way? Do you see him making progress?

Simone Collins: I was stunned.

I was actually going through the, the primary thing I’m using to evaluate where he stands grade level wise with his homeschooling. And he, he might be getting to the second grade. Like within a couple of weeks in, in [00:53:00] some domains. That

Malcolm Collins: would be amazing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘cause my, our, our goal was ‘cause he’s in, he’s technically in first grade now to get him into the third grade by the end of the year.

So to have him one semester ahead, basically. But I think we’re gonna

Malcolm Collins: blow through that because at school he was always considered behind.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh, severely behind. What also is insane to me though, is. We, I, we’re not gonna stop over the summer. You know, we’re just like, every day is just gonna be a school day.

And it’s so bizarre to me that we still have summer vacations in the US that like, oh, I mean,

Malcolm Collins: you can work

Simone Collins: on this farm. We don’t. Yeah. Like, yeah. And that was like this, this social contract of like, okay, please just let us teach your children to read. You can keep them as farm workers. Don’t worry. Are you

Malcolm Collins: even going to send him toasty to school?

Are we gonna just not send him at all?

Simone Collins: I want it to be his decision. And every time I bring it up, I’m not yet sure what his decision is going to be. ‘cause he, much like Octavian only [00:54:00] knows of the school bus. He has no understanding of what’s on the other end of the school bus.

Malcolm Collins: The school bus.

Simone Collins: But he wants, it’s, it’s like, I think it’s very similar if you drive by a nightclub and you see people waiting in line for the nightclub and you’re like.

I gotta get in there, you know, like that,

Malcolm Collins: that looks cool.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like they’re all waiting in line. It, it has neon lights on the outside. Like I gotta get, you know, you’re like, you know, it’s, it, there’s, you could hear the music booming inside what’s going on in there. And then you get in, it’s crowded, it’s loud.

It, there’s vomit everywhere. The floor is sticky. I mean, actually, they, they’re exactly the same. Nothing happens. You wait the whole time lines. Instructions

Malcolm Collins: like, oh God, you should see our episodes on school. We, we gotta do an episode on how bad school is these days. Like nobody’s,

Simone Collins: I thought you’re gonna do on how bad nightclubs are too.

We we’re kind of notorious about those things.

Malcolm Collins: I, everybody knows nightclubs are falling apart. They’re like not a thing anymore. I mean, I, they’re for old people. That’s, that’s what nightclub are now. You

Simone Collins: show up and it’s just boomer women.

Malcolm Collins: Boomer women. [00:55:00] Yeah. All right. I’ll get started here.

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Dive into a mind-blowing deep dive where Malcolm and Simone Collins expose the Jedi Order as the ultimate villains of the Star Wars universe! Forget the heroic myths—this episode breaks down how the Jedi are controlled by a parasitic hive mind (midi-chlorians), enforce child kidnapping and soldier training, uphold a dystopian Republic riddled with corruption and slavery, and lie about the true nature of the Force. Drawing from canon lore like The Clone Wars, prequels, and even the Mortis arc, we argue Palpatine was right, Anakin did nothing wrong, and the Empire might actually be the good guys. Plus, real-world parallels to parasites like toxoplasmosis and cultural brainwashing. Is Star Wars secretly a horror story? Buckle up for facts, rants, and a killer outro!

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be talking about how the Jedi order from the Star Wars universe is quite possibly the most evil organization in any sci-fi universe I have ever read.

Simone Collins: They are actual scum. They are actual scum.

Malcolm Collins: They are. When you, when you actually think about it, you’re like, oh my God. The Star Wars universe under the Republic was a complete dystopia and the empire was needed. Palpatine was right. So, and, and I, I’m not gonna make stretches here. I’m not gonna bend outside the lore. You’re just gonna stage

Simone Collins: facts,

Malcolm Collins: the lore of mm-hmm.

The Star Wars universe. So. Right.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: They have these symbiotic organisms called MIT chloron. Mm-hmm. Now you could say they’re symbiotic, but they’re really [00:01:00] not symbiotic. They’re more parasitic. , Why do I say that? They’re parasitic rather than symbiotic. Well, because when they reach high enough levels in a host, that host loses their ability to breed.

IE the Jedi have to be celibate.

And it’s made very clear if you have too high a level of this parasitic inflection. If your mitol count is too high, you deal with extreme negative side effects, or at least this is what those infected with the parasite and who follow its will say extreme negative side effects if you attempt to breed.

So this. Parasitic organisms that lives in humanoids. They ha has a hive mind that we call the, the light side of the force that they worship. They have to serve the will of it. By the way, it, it lies to them about its true nature provably in the, the, the Star Wars universe.

Oh,

Simone Collins: does it? They

Malcolm Collins: they have [00:02:00] to. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn’t create the force or anything like that. The, the force is, we learned the history of the force and the mortis arc. So it is a. Parasitic hive mind that is lying to them about how it grants them presumably magic like powers. Then they sort the entire society of the universe into a hierarchy based on your level of infection by this parasite.

Simone Collins: God,

Malcolm Collins: this is, I mean this is just, just any fact. Any

Simone Collins: fact, yes.

Malcolm Collins: When, when, when they go and they find Anakin.

Simone Collins: Oh

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Right. They’re like, oh, he has X white chloron count, which means that one day he, he could be one of the most powerful Jedi ever. Mm. Right. I haven’t even gone into the child kidnapping and stuff like that yet, which we will get to.

Oh,

Simone Collins: child soldiers? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. They have literal child soldiers. When Anakin [00:03:00] went in there, and I’ll go, I’ll elaborate on this in more detail, and he killed the young Lings. That was a completely justified thing to do. Within that context, we see those very sane young lings in other shots, and I’m talking about like of the movie, like not even like extended stuff, practicing with light sabers, the single most dangerous weapon in the entire universe.

Okay? These are children,

Simone Collins: they’re not like broken, not, not, stick swords, but laser. Laser swords.

Malcolm Collins: Laser swords, they’re not even paying, was like wooden AK 40 sevens. Now the laser swords are turned down in these

Simone Collins: oh,

Malcolm Collins: okay.

Speaker: Huh? What do you think? I think you finished your lightsaber.

Find out.

Malcolm Collins: Well we learned that [00:04:00] in, it’s not confirmed in like the movie that they’re turned down.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: But somebody I think realized how bad this looked.

Simone Collins: Oh, they’re on safety mode. It’s okay.

Malcolm Collins: This is a, a, a parasitic organism that has taken control. Of the entire galaxy. Right?

This is Unironically what Jedi Apologists sound like.

Speaker 7: Open the door. It is so much better. There’s no fear or pain. It’s beautiful. And you We’ll be beautiful. No problems or worries. We want you. No pain, Stan? We’re gonna come in here and I’ll show you some pain!

Malcolm Collins: Like, because it keep in mind the Jedi Act as a secret police force of unelected officials where your entrance into the secret police force you are.

Taken as a child raised on their provably wrong ideology that the force should be worshiped. And when you listen to the [00:05:00] little voice in your head that’s created by these parasites, you are doing something definitionally good. And if you go against the little voice in your head created by these, the, the parasitic hive mind, you are doing something definitionally bad, IE or are you saying the

Simone Collins: course is toxoplasmosis?

Malcolm Collins: The force is toxoplasmosis. Oh my God. And so what we’ll go into in this episode is this entire universe is a universe where toxoplasmosis won over humanity, an abortion death and humanity is, and it’s trying to get us used to this idea as a good thing that it would be a good thing to give your children to the toxoplasmosis people to be raised with their ideology and trained as a child soldier.

And when I say trained as a child soldier, you could be like, well, they’re just trained as a child soldier. They don’t actually go out and. Fight and murder people when they’re children. Honey, within Star Lords cannon,

Simone Collins: oh,

Malcolm Collins: ano. The first time we meet ano on murder missions. By the way, she is 14. [00:06:00] This is treated as completely normal.

In the Star Wars universe, if we look at the extended cannon, it appears that children begin to start participating in missions where they might be killed or expected to kill someone at the age of 10. No, this is a war crime.

Simone Collins: Well, they, they fit into the small spaces. Malcolm, you have to understand it’s a.

Malcolm Collins: Literally that’s part of plots with Padawans is that they can fit in smaller spaces. I think in some of the clone words. Yes. Yes. This is real. By the way, if you’re like, oh, but the children are always taken with consent. One, literally, we know from Canon that this is not true. There is one case in which a child is taken this might be in Legends, but I think it’s canon.

I’ll, I’ll confirm later in the episode. But taken from a disaster zone and they weren’t sure if the parents were alive [00:07:00] and oh, then. Brought to the Jedi and raised to the Jedi, and then the mother finds out later and she’s still alive, and she petitions the Jedi and the Jedi refused to give the child back to her saying that now that the force has been quote unquote awakened in the child, it is too dangerous to give the child back to the mother.

So when they say stuff like, well, mothers always consent to this, families always consent to this. What the Jedi are doing is they’re basically coming with the trans argument. They say, your kid will be a danger to themselves. They’ll be a danger to society. You know, they could join the dark side and we’ll have to come and put them down.

Basically, if you don’t transition, you’ll kill yourself. Like that’s the, that’s what they’re telling them about their kids. So you have to give us the kids. And we also know that. They definitely didn’t always use consent. How do we know that? They definitely didn’t always use consent. Well, this one unfortunately comes from Legends.

But if if we wanna go with Canon, you could use acolyte to show that there is coercion used in taking children sometimes. Okay. I [00:08:00] literally view acolyte as less cannon than legends.

Simone Collins: Agreed.

Malcolm Collins: So let’s go to legends.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: From legends, we know that there was a Hut Jedi.

All right. Now,

Simone Collins: really? Wow.

Malcolm Collins: He turned evil. Ended up ruling a planet for thousands of years. As a sis it’s a story arc, but anyway,

Simone Collins: I just feel like huts lack the agility. To

Malcolm Collins: wait. I And that’s what made him cool, right?

Simone Collins: Am am I spec ra species racist? And this is,

Malcolm Collins: so the

Simone Collins: thing about

Malcolm Collins: huts, if you know anything about the Star Wars can showing my nerd color here, right.

Simone Collins: I feel very embarrassed. ‘cause my my literal OkCupid name was Moss Isley and I was. My photos were of me and film grade Stormtrooper Armor, but I was just genuinely using it as a lure to catch dudes. Like, I don’t actually know. There was, what’s also

Malcolm Collins: funny about all of this, you hear me crashing out about Star Wars lore right here.

I literally haven’t seen the last Star Wars movie because it looks so bad. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Well, no, I, to the true fan will not engage with that.

Malcolm Collins: I, I haven’t watched any of the, [00:09:00] but if you know huts stuff. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Huts are you, you’re not gonna get. For, so first of all, there’s a few problems with taking a hut, youngling.

One problem is it a hut 3-year-old, because they say three years old is like the right age, and by the age that they’re nine that they would that that fee considered too old because Anakin’s considered too old. Right? Oh, well. At the age of nine, a hut is still sort of like a larval slug. It carried around like a kangaroo and like a parent’s patch.

Like they’re not being taken out and taken to the temple for training. They wouldn’t be s sl that until they were like, well past 50. But here you’re talking about like, yeah, but

Simone Collins: I mean, these are, these are hut years, you know, like dog years. It’s different

Malcolm Collins: dog years. And we can say, okay, well, like with the Yoda species.

The hut species may have different rules for when they can enter. Sure, but here’s the other problem. An equivalent hut at the age of three, especially a four sensitive hut, [00:10:00] the hut would never, never given their culture allow a child at that age to be taken and raised by the Jedi. The hut species is on multiple occasions, canonically shown.

When a hut infant goes missing huts are far more obsessive parents than any species we see in the entire Star Wars universe.

Simone Collins: Oh, so they’re the the Mama Bear of the Star Wars universe?

Malcolm Collins: Well, it’s not just the mama bear. When Baby huts, because this has happened I think twice in Canon that I’m aware of.

When something threatens a baby hut or a baby hut goes missing, it’s immediately the, the entire. Interplanetary criminal syndicate is activated of, oh my God, I saw the

Simone Collins: cuts go.

Malcolm Collins: Alright, go Fing nuts. When a baby is taken they, it, it is, it is. Their entire criminal syndicate basically turns into baby search [00:11:00] force.

Now, mind you, in this case, it would not just be a baby that went missing. It would be a force sensitive baby that the huts would definitely want to keep and train to do something involving forced sensitivity.

Simone Collins: Fair. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So it’s completely implausible. Even if there was some sort of destruction, city destruction and this one hut was rescued that the huts didn’t have.

World spanning criminal syndicate searching for that child. Now, why would you

Simone Collins: tithe your talent to this organization that does nothing for your people when you could use that talent for your people?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, when the Jedi are like definitionally they just wouldn’t happen. So we know that they practice it.

They just tell you they don’t practice it because a lot of Star Wars you’re seeing from the perspective of the Jedi. And we also know that the Jedi thought that if there was a force sensitive that could turn to evil. They shouldn’t be given back to their own [00:12:00] people. So that would make sense if they saw four Sensitive Hut, that they would kidnap it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s like a

Simone Collins: wmd. They got

Malcolm Collins: us. Yeah. Given the logic they, they showed in this other context. Right.

Simone Collins: Gotta catch ‘em all. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Now I want to make very clear here that this is like extremely explicit in the Star Wars universe.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Your level of power and you as like a casual fan, you are aware your level of power is hugely mitigated by your level of MIT Chloron.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: And your level of MIT Chloron is. Part genetic, part random, but definitely has nothing to do with how much effort you put into things. It is literally just your level of parasitic infection. And that parasitic infection has the ability to quote unquote guide you, right? So this isn’t like a normal parasitic infection.

This is a parasitic infection that through a hive mind is partially influencing your actions and you have decided to base [00:13:00] society. Hierarchies around this infection now get to the point where I just point out that it, it, it. It lies. So at the, at the from Jedi philosophy, they say that MIT chlorines are the foundation of all life. Okay. EEG that like life evolved outta MIT chlorines or they are key to living things.

We know from legends, at least from the Yuson Vong, that this is definitionally not true. You can have living things with No, my accords.

Simone Collins: Oh, really? Okay.

Malcolm Collins: We also know how Jedi treat living things that are low. MIT chlorines. What is specifically made to have low MIT chlorines in the Star Wars universe?

Clone troopers. Oh, no. Disposable what? Yes. What? So, so,

Simone Collins: like actually,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, and, and keep in mind they, they not only call them the foundation of all life, but Qin goes so far as a state without my chloron, [00:14:00] life could not exist. Okay. Note here, we don’t only know this from the. Vaughn. Mm-hmm. We also know that the MIT chlorines are not key to either the inception or the maintenance of Flo Forest throughout the universe.

Mm-hmm. They just appear to be able to sort of hijack its power, because that seems to be tied to the mortis arc. I don’t wanna go that deep into the mortis arc because it’s incredibly trippy and crazy. But, basically the force is created by sort of a Greek god’s like tragedy of supernatural forces representing two children in a fight on a planet that is almost sort of like.

Changing and holographic in its nature. And that they at one point interact with Anakin in Asoka. So that’s a, a thing that happens in Canon, but it basically shows that there is actually some sort of. Religious truth [00:15:00] underpinning the force. And it is not the parasitic hive mind, but the parasitic hive mind appears to be able to use it to through the Jedi.

And this is how we know that the Jedi don’t worship the real force. I have never seen anything in the Jedi’s teaching that reflects that they are aware of this supernatural mortis plane that defines the force’s true nature. Okay. They say things that you would only say. If a parasite was controlling you, eeg, MIT chlorines are necessary for all life and the foundation of all life.

Now, you

Simone Collins: can say, okay, so let me, let me ask you a question here. And maybe you don’t know the answer to this. Was George Lucas involved in this additional. Yeah. Expansion. The, the prequels and the prequels introduced Am mi chlor. Oh, he did? Okay. Okay. Because I thought, you know, when you think back to the originals, which is what I watched over and over again, [00:16:00] there was just, oh, there’s a great disturbance in the force, or use the force.

But it was more just, it, I, I interpreted it as a child, as an equivalent to Q Energy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And nothing more.

Malcolm Collins: But he, but he changed that, so, oh, okay. We’ve got it. And he changed it a long time ago. This was changed in at least the first of the prequels, potentially earlier than that. Fans can correct me here but it was pretty clearly laid out that MIT chlorine count mattered when they were scouting for Anakin.

Yeah. And that’s where we get a lot of the lore on Mittal Chloron. So that is old. That is decades old. That is core Star Wars Lord. And the Mortis arc, which contradicts that from the Clone Wars. I don’t think anybody wants to clone war not to be Canon. It’s literally, I think, the best Star Wars story ever told.

And George Lucas specifically was involved in the mortis arc lore. Oh. So he specifically both created the Mi Jedi saying, MIT chloron are the core thing that matters to all life. That’s where all force comes from and specifically showed. That is [00:17:00] also factually untrue. And so the MIT Chlor and Hive mind is lying to you about that.

George,

Simone Collins: something bad happened to him because I learned this week that Kathleen Kennedy worked for Lucas Film. Was his assistant.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That’s why they never fire her because she tries to claim credit for like old Lucas stuff. And when he handed it all over to her he, I mean he had said in the past, he feels really betrayed by her.

She basically betrayed, went full on with Disney. They used her connection to, I mean, she destroyed the property for them. She did,

Simone Collins: absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: I just

Simone Collins: didn’t, I thought that she was inserted by Disney.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. She basically tried to twist and destroy everything. Star Wars. But I’m pointing out that Star Wars has always been evil.

Mm-hmm. Star Wars has always been about the bugs, right? Like Star Wars is a universe where a parasite controls all homage life. And attempts to subjugate it against his own biological interest. Disgusting. Keep in mind, what were the core sins of Palpatine and Kant Duku that [00:18:00] are constantly repeated is that they were human supremacists and they wanted

Simone Collins: I was just gonna say that.

Yeah. They actually cared about humanity. Oh my God. How dare they,

Malcolm Collins: their own biological reproduction.

The Star Wars universe is a universe where basically the faculty happened and the parasite won.

Malcolm Collins: So you can say, here, wait, wait, wait, wait. The Jedi promote balance. Right. Except, and this is super canid from the, not just the clone wars, but also they, they protect balance and they protect a democracy.

Right? Like the, the, the, the Federation is a democracy, right? Okay. First of the Clone Wars focuses very heavily on one planet’s representative. Was she elected? No, she’s a hereditary monarch.

Simone Collins: Oh, was she

Malcolm Collins: Princess? Vidala

Simone Collins: Princess? She, she was born, she’s a

Malcolm Collins: princess. She’s a hereditary [00:19:00] monarch.

Simone Collins: Should have figured, but I guess, yeah.

And it’s

Malcolm Collins: not just her. We see this in the the newer I haven’t watched it yet. The, the, the one that

Simone Collins: oh God. In Princess Le Yeah. They, they were definitely nepo babies. Oh, crap.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Princess Leia inherited her title as Princess from her mother. That is a hereditary monarchy.

Simone Collins: Oh boy.

Malcolm Collins: So, and, and not only that, not only that, the Federation actually has seats, and this is very well established in the.

It has stets for the that are, that are held by people with corporate board positions. Specifically. We know here of the

trade federation, the banking clan, and the techno union.

But the the, the, the ones who are running the fricking blockade. They are not even planets. They are corporate board members who have a vote in a government alongside hereditary monarchs. In fact, it seems that the vast minority [00:20:00] of planets, we, we see planets in the federation that are outright autocracies. We see planets that have single hive mind rulers like the Ians we, we, and that federation seems to have no problem with this at all. It is a corrupt, dictatorial regime with a semblance of voting, I guess, among the elites. The Jedi, what, what are they out there doing? They’re out there solving trade disputes to keep the money rolling while in co the capital. There is such a rampant drug problem that one of the Jedi gets offered death sticks like a, a drug that ah, in the branding it can effing

Simone Collins: Well, that sounds fun.

Malcolm Collins: And he doesn’t arrest the guy,

Simone Collins: honestly, though. That just sounds like what a crunchy mom or almond mom would call pixie sticks. So,

Malcolm Collins: so I, I, and I’m pretty sure in that scene it is obvious that he’s a Jedi.

Speaker 3: [00:21:00] Thinker, you wanna buy some death sticks.

Malcolm Collins: So this is a world where in the Capitol you can walk up to. A cop or a secret police mm-hmm. And offer them a deadly and addictive narcotic.

And they will do nothing about that. They don’t even care. It’s not even of importance to them. Worse, we know about giant slaving operations that are going on during this time period by the bat ear people. We know

Simone Collins: the batier people. Do

Malcolm Collins: we know that the yeah, this is, this is from the clone war. I, I can’t remember the species names, but they have an entire interplanetary slave empire that the Jedi do nothing about while spending their time on trade disputes.

We, and, and wiping out people simply for having different beliefs about the forests. We’ll get to that in a second, but they’ve wipe out relatively benign species for having slightly [00:22:00] different beliefs about the forests. So they, they the huts are allowed to just continue their operation. A Jedi goes to a hut planet.

This is how little the Jedi care about slavery. So he goes to a hut planet, right? Again, this is as canon as you can get. This is like the first of the prequels. He sees people in slavery. He sees a child in slavery that he wants to take back to the Jedi order and use mm-hmm. As a child, soldier, human weapon.

That’s why he’s excited about him. His high olian count. That is why he frees him from slavery. He frees him through slavery by cheating in a game of cards or a a dice game. And then does not free his mother from slavery. He just effing leaves her as a slave.

Simone Collins: Well, it’s far more convenient that way. You wanna separate them from their parents anyway, so.

Malcolm Collins: Well, right. They would create problems with the Jedi [00:23:00] order if they free. Yeah, you

gotta

Simone Collins: get her outta the picture. What better way they could

Malcolm Collins: just double down like bet you know the ship bet, the droids bet something else. He doesn’t double down. He and, and, and keep in mind, like slaves, human, humanoid slaves in the Star Wars universe are not that valuable.

No, they’re certainly not as valuable as like his ship, right? Like they’re, they’re fairly easy to get and they make more of themselves, right? Mm-hmm. Like the, the, the arbitrary cruelty of that I think shows like The Jedi are really about separating children from their parents, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. And that was, I mean, I think that was pretty clear.

In the first prequel movie. It, it’s a pretty heart wrenching scene when they part ways and they make it seem ethically dubious, I think sufficiently well. I think also part of me, I have to ask you, how much of this is intentional actually making the Jedi look bad? And I ask that because it’s [00:24:00] not intentional at all.

Well, hold on though. I, I feel like there is, there’s some evidence for intentional. If sometimes botched trolling first? I just don’t know. I mean, there is a huge, huge of like the Star Wars cosplay universe of people who just love being storm troopers and STH lords. It’s not like everyone wants to be a Jedi.

And they also intentionally gave, I mean obviously to, because they wanted to make them look like the Third Reich, but they gave the, the. And, and basically anyone who’s on the dark side, way better costumes, but there is a very large like, fan community that prefers to, to cosplay the quote unquote bad guys.

And unless the storytellers are, you know, in, in intentionally trying to make the bad guys terrible, you know, people aren’t gonna do that. Also, there’s the whole Georgia Banks thing of being a [00:25:00] a, a Si Lord. Aspen Gold pointed out that he really thinks there’s strong, strong evidence that when they made the first movie, they really were trying to set up, charge our banks as a sih lord, and they chickened out on it.

Because of the fan response to him. And he says that because of the amount of, of money and time that appears to have been spent on animating him and having him like look certain ways that would only be necessary in that kind of plot scenario. Otherwise they wouldn’t have invested as much in how do, how

Malcolm Collins: he engage with that theory right now?

I I I, I do not know if I agree with

Simone Collins: you. Well, I just, I feel like there might have been some like 40 chess or maybe some renegade like tellers in there who are.

Malcolm Collins: Fans would be happier with Jar Jar being a cis lord. Yeah. In the same way fans of Scooby-Doo were happy when they made the Scooby-Doo movie and Scrappy turned out to be the big villain.

That was like a nod to what the fans had always wanted, right? Like Jar Jar being cis Lord fans would’ve loved that they chickened out in [00:26:00] not making him a Well, I mean, in, in, in,

Simone Collins: you think? Well, I, I think the adult fans hated them. I think the kid fans loved him. Just like the kid fans. I, we know this.

Malcolm Collins: Before I go further here, I, I wanna make absolutely clear here, mon the core point I’m making here, definitely not intended by Lucas. Lucas did not realize that he was writing a script where a secret police force controlled by a hive mind parasite that was lying to people about the nature of the force.

Controlled the universe. That was definitely, he didn’t understand when he introduced MIT chlorine that that actually, because now you’re not listening to some mystical energy. You’re listening to a lying parasite that tells you anybody who doesn’t follow the will of the lying parasite is definitionally evil.

And the extent to which the Jedi believe this. You can see when the moment they realize, ‘cause what. Finds a dark side user in Canon is that they don’t listen to the parasite. They [00:27:00] don’t listen to what they call the will of the force, right? The moment that they realize that, palpatine is a dark side user not knowing any of his crimes, not knowing anything else.

They immediately attempt to murder him, execute him without trial. Alright? Mm-hmm. If you do not follow their beliefs about following the parasite, you are slated for immediate execution of Star Wars. Lord. Yeah. I do not think, I mean, in. And you know, the, the minds of the writers, they’re like, well, you know, we’ve written that, that Palpatine has done a lot of terrible things, so it’s okay.

Like, I don’t care that the Jedi are going to execute him. They’re not sinking through.

Simone Collins: That this is an extra judicial killing.

Malcolm Collins: This is an extra judicial killing

Simone Collins: political figure.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Of a Of a, of a sitting, a head official in the government. Like a senator.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Not just a senator, but [00:28:00] a leading senator like

Simone Collins: elected.

Malcolm Collins: Of one of the political parties of the entire galaxy that is being carried out simply because he doesn’t follow the will of a parasitic organism that communicates with us through a form of like mind control.

Simone Collins: Oops.

Malcolm Collins: And we do know that the force can be used by mind for mind control. So we don’t know how mind controlled the Jedi actually are, which brings me to the Anakin, did nothing.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: So you’ve got the child soldiers that we’re talking about here, but actually consider the fate of these children. These are children who were taken from their families at very young ages, typically around three, raised in this belief system. Trained from around the age of I

Simone Collins: know, but now you’re, no, because then now you’re trying to like Sandy hook this.

And no, it, it’s never justified to hurt young people. I don’t care if their lives are gonna be,

Malcolm Collins: I, I, so you, you are looking at [00:29:00] them as a normal young people who had a chance of growing up into normal human beings. Whereas I look at them much closer to. Young people who unfortunately are infected with like a pod person parasite and are going to grow up because keep in mind, how do Jedi reproduce, right?

Like once you reach the level of infection of one of these young people, how do you reproduce? Well now because you live your life in dedication to the parasite, the way these young people will make more dead is they will go and they will coerce families to give them their infants at the age of three.

Reproduced by kidnapping other people’s children at this point, like the, there is no good that they can really do for the universe at this level of infection. They are extremely dangerous to leave alive. And what’s more here is. Anica didn’t have control of everything. Like suppose he had taken all of the young links, he took some of them and raised them as dark siders.

[00:30:00] Right? But suppose he had tried to take all of them and raised them as dark siders, like just from this original set, there would’ve been enough rebellions and enough break offs from their time in the temple that you’d be dealing with constant Jedi rebellions. In fact, I would even go so far as to argue that the.

Way that Palpatine executed. Order 66 was the single most ethical way to remove the pod person infestation of the empire. So you have leading all sorts of troops people who we know have pod person infections, a parasite that is partially controlling their minds and that they follow as a religion, right?

Mm-hmm. What you don’t wanna have happen is a civil war, right? Like you do not want a full Jedi led civil war that would’ve been. Truly devastating to the empire, right? So you have this small sale controlled civil war, which was done through the, the civil War with the separatists, right? You get all of the Jedi basically alone with clone troopers.

You then [00:31:00] execute an order to have all the clone troopers execute them without any real pushback, which went really well. We got a on order, 66 went like Maduro level raid. Well, mm-hmm. Palpatine and Trump. I see some similarities there. Then you’ve gotta deal with these young brainwashed people at the temple, right?

And potentially resetting up this pod person controlling the, that’s an existential threat to the human species. Everything that the Jedi do is just for the betterment of the parasite. It’s for the safety of the parasite, and it’s for the betterment of the parasite. That’s what they’re doing when they’re doing for the will of the parasite, they find.

High parasite count individuals, they raise them and they use them to maintain safety in a universe where this parado parasite exists.

Yeah, from four to eight, they tried light saber training, so heavy weapons training from four to eight. We know that they saw action as young as 13 because OB one canonically saw action as young as 13.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow.

Malcolm Collins: Although there, there, there is, I mean, that’s a child soldier. Yeah. That is a [00:32:00] child soldier.

Simone Collins: 100%.

Malcolm Collins: We do know of, of some. Padawans being sent into action as young as 10. It, it appears to be implied, like if OB one was sent in and it’s not talked about as weird at 13, I would assume 10 at least.

Now let’s, let’s talk about how they. Pick children, right? So we know it’s typically between three and five. We know that families are pushed with this idea of, oh, it’s an honor. They’re going to live a better life if they go live with the Jedi. But this is actually deeply messed up if you think about it for like a second.

Because what it means is the. Parasite that controls the Jedi order and has created this fake religion around itself that it has created such a ubiquitous understanding in the universe that if you are born arbitrarily with the high level of the parasite, that you will live a better life than everyone else.

And this is so commonly accepted that parents will give up their three to 5-year-old children to a [00:33:00] religious order.

Simone Collins: A militaristic religious order.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Imagine how like one. You’d have to just have a, a default understanding. Oh, if you have a high parasite, you just live this life of a God in this world.

Right? Like of course we send out our children. Right? Or that you fear the Jedi coming to kill your kids as a dark cider later, right? Or that you like. That’s us horrifying. And I think another really horrifying thing that’s made incredibly clear is when they say that they don’t even want to take nine year olds.

Right, that the brainwashing is, if you say a 9-year-old is too old for the brainwashing techniques that you are using as an organization, those brain drop washing techniques need to be severe and systemic. Right. Like imagine you heard of a religious order that turned away people who joined other than nine, because they usually ended up turning against the order later.

If they joined as old as nine, they had that [00:34:00] much external programming. You’d be like, oh, they’re, they’re big evil. Right? Like that would be your assumption, right?

Simone Collins: It’s bad. It’s a bad,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Simone Collins: Sorry, hold on, hold on.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, they’re

Simone Collins: basically

Malcolm Collins: telling the, the clearest example that I was talking about where you had the, the kid who was taken by the Jedi and the parents asked for them back. This is the baby Lundy arc. And it’s canon adjacent the case in which you have them attempting to wipe out somebody for simply having different religious beliefs about the forest eeg.

They don’t follow the parasite. And this is very clear, they don’t follow the parasite in the acolyte. I hate that it’s canon, but it is canon. So if, if we’re using something here, they view the force as the thread a connective. Destiny binding energy, not a widespread power with light and dark sides.

They use collective rituals which are seen as dark or unnatural [00:35:00] by the Jedi. And this escalates to a conflict with the Jedi where they are all wiped out

and they’re children who were forced sensitive do end up being taken. I mean. Plaus by Consent by the Jedi which is really, really shady.

But if you say, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna look at them, I wanna look at legends. Well, then you have the, the hut joining there, right? I’d also point out here. That you have the Knight Sisters, which are very canon. This is from Clone Clone Wars, which again, I think is, is the best where they practice a force called magic, A communal, ritual based power drawn from Das War’s Icker Green Energy Myth.

Emphasizing spells, incantations and sisterhood bonds over individual mind, chlorine infection. They, they do not talk about MIT chlorine infections. As far as I know, there’s, there’s no instance of the Knight Sisters saying that the forest works through this organism that infects people.

They actually appear to have a. Truer [00:36:00] understanding of the actual force than the Jedi have of the actual force. And more people in their society appear to be able to use the force than is possible through the parasitic mechanism that the Jedi use. So they have powers that we do not see Jedi have, like the ability to resurrect the dead.

EG the zombie argue in clone wars. Terraform become invisible pulling from what Jedi call the dark side, but without the Jedi suppression of passion. So keep in mind they’re able to do all of this without suppressing emotion, passion, or reproduction.

This is actually very important. These people appear to be able to use the force with higher capacity than the Jedi do. In many areas. They, they appear to be able to do many things that the Jedi simply cannot do. , On top of that, they seem to be able to do them without suppressing their emotions, without becoming celibate.

And they do not [00:37:00] believe in we, we see no evidence that they believe that force powers are a result of MIT chloron. It is only the Jedi who believed this. The Jedi believe this because the MIT chlorines are controlling them and lying to them about where their force powers come from.

And if you’re a Jedi defender and you wanna say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They, they don’t, they don’t have , a better understanding of the force than the Jedi do. Then the, the Jedi have huge, huge, huge limitations that come from fourth usage. They can’t form attachments. They can’t love, they can’t have passion.

They can’t, they can’t reproduce, really except for some rare instances. The night sisters have none of those limitations. And yet can perform many things with apparently little effort that the Jedi cannot do. I don’t know how else you explain that then that their understanding of the force is simply truer or better than the Jedi if they don’t have these extremely [00:38:00] severe limitations and yet have as much power.

They even have a, a matriarchal class, right? Yet the Jedi, upon seeing them, their first thought is.

The fact that they see the force differently than us makes them darkside, thus an existential threat. Thus, we need to exterminate them and they do in, in many cases, run extermination campaigns against them. In Canon. Mind you, right? Like, yes, dark cider have pulled from them before. This is a species that Darth Mall came from.

But they’re not all bad. As we see the venous works with the Jedi on. Multiple occasions. And , the matriarchs we see as being potentially even like good aligned, right? And these are the ones who run their society. By the way, mace Windu is the one who authorizes Dukus genocide of the Sun Clan on Darth Moore in the comics,

Simone Collins: ah,

Malcolm Collins: let’s, if you wanna get into the mortis [00:39:00] arc as it’s called they’re the floating diamond shaped planet that appears to be otherworldly outside of our reality. There’s the father, which represents ballots of the force. He’s an ancient dying entity trying to maintain

equilibrium between light and dark. Uhhuh, the daughter who embodies a light side. Selfless, harmonious life-giving. Okay. And body. It’s a dark side. Selfish, destructive, empowered.

Simone Collins: It’s, it’s the Star Wars Trinity. That’s, this seems like an unhinged arc. Who wrote this?

Malcolm Collins: I think it George Lucas did based on drug trips is from what I heard.

Simone Collins: Okay. Well, I

Malcolm Collins: mean that

Simone Collins: makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: Now the thing I note about this is you could say, well, okay, even if this is the true nature of the force, which isn’t the MIT chloron, as the MIT would claim, the the, the MIT Chloron have chosen. The the good side, the quote unquote good side, right? And it’s like, well actually think about it from the perspective of the MIT chloron.

So suppose you’re the MIT Chloron high [00:40:00] spine, okay? And you understand the true nature of the force, okay? Right? You need people to be obedient to you, and you are going to tell people that your will is the force as well. Now, we do know the forces. Actual will. The force is actual will is to maintain balance.

But that doesn’t seem to be what the Jedi want and that doesn’t seem to be what the MIT chloron want. The mittal chloron want only the light side to win. Right. They, they, the Jedi, who are following them repeatedly attempt to wipe out the dark side. And yet we know from the mortis arc that the reason why the mortis arc is done is they’re basically testing Anakin as the person to bring balance.

Mm-hmm. So they’re testing. Him as a person to bring dark side back to the universe, right? Like that was the test. We wanna make sure you’re good. The true gods wanted to bring back the dark side against this light side that had taken most of the control. It’s infected faction. Now you’ve got this light side infection, so why?

Did the [00:41:00] infection choose the light side to attempt to help its spread and safety within the universe? Why? Well, because if you are a cloud-based infection, right? That’s simply the easier side to use to control people. The dark side, because it’s so competitive. Because it, it is. You know, so power hungry is not going to listen to you as effectively.

How do you argue to them? Well, listen to the voice in your head when they’re like, but the whole point of the dark side is not to listen to the voice in my head. So of course you’re going to co-opt the life side, but then use it sort of quote unquote selflessness, quote unquote, like helping nature to maintain the bureaucracy of an autocratic state.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Functionally end up doing.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. So they’re just compliant. They’re, they’re, they’re so, they’re so, willing to be overtaken by the whims of this hive mind that they will just go for it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, so the mega [00:42:00] corporations with seats in the federation are so seats in the. Council are the trade federation, the banking clan, and the techno union.

So they have seats in the Senate. Each of these organizations does these, these aren’t like planets. They are corporate organizations that have enormous power in the Senate. We, we see them speak up and people take them very seriously in the Senate. And we also know that the Senate was very corrupt.

Now let’s talk about the empire. ‘cause the empire was presumably so evil, right? What made the Empire evil? Well, the empire operated on a human first strategy, which I don’t see as necessarily evil, like I’m a human, right? Like they’re trying to brainwash us into liking the other, when in truth, many alien species had treated humans.

Systemically. Unfairly.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, e even like, I, I feel like the clone, or sorry, the, the prequel series is really well watched. Anakin is enslaved to he by, by an alien species. It’s not

Malcolm Collins: great. Well, but [00:43:00] it’s not just that. You have other species, like in the federation that we know, practice demonstrably unfair practices, given speech seal advantages.

So the mu. Who operate the banking clan are a good example of this. Mm-hmm. In the early days, the banking clan was mostly a human led organization. And then I guess you could argue that he was making an argument against Indians or something.

They, he hired, they hired one to some high level positions, one basically only hire other man.

And so they begin to slowly replace the top board of the banking clans, the, the highest wealth thing in the entire Star Wars universe that controls pretty much all wealth. In the universe, wars, everything like that, with only this one species, the man. Mm-hmm. A but the point being is, the other species had systematically disadvantaged humans using their genetic differences. Right. Like. Why shouldn’t humans fight back if they have the power to? For real wait. We should just wait till we’re [00:44:00] eradicated.

Simone Collins: Just

Malcolm Collins: roll

Simone Collins: over and take it, huh?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Roll over and take it. No. And I will point out that the Empire did not just dispose of. All non-human species many non-human species serve some of the most senior roles in the empire.

Simone Collins: Well, that’s true,

Malcolm Collins: The, the great one here would be Grand Admiral Thra probably outside of Darth Vader and Palpatine the number one figure in the empire. And he was definitely not a human. So the empire would elevate you if you had competence and you weren’t a human and you didn’t show yourself.

It’s actively hostile to humans. Okay. The empire also had much less corruption than the Senate. We see several figures talk about this, even figures who do not like the empire. Oh, wow. The empire also subjugated part of hut space. Bringing human safety to those regions that were previously huts.

Slave [00:45:00] territory. Yikes. The empire was fundamentally and strictly a better place to live if you were a human being than the corrupt and alien dominated and slanted world of the the the, the Senate. And you were brainwashed into hating them. You were brainwashed. And, and what I find so interesting about the Star Wars universe is it is the in-state, if you watch our video these parasites are brainwashing women into being horny.

We now have enormous evidence that there are a number of parasites with the one that we have the most clear evidence on. A, a new strain of toxoplasmosis. Which no longer is using cats as an intermediary step and makes both sexes more attracted to same sex individuals and more open to sexual encounters, which is how it transmits itself.

But it also reduces other things that make it more cohesive to like an urban monocultural symbiosis, [00:46:00] like threat detection, IE form. Bringing over a bunch of foreigners who wanna kill me. There’s aliens who are systemically you know, treating people like me unfairly. And

Simone Collins: I am no, this, this didn’t come to light when all these storylines are being written for, to be clear.

But it is. It is just.

Malcolm Collins: No, the

Simone Collins: point

Malcolm Collins: I’m

making

Simone Collins: is analogously telling and, and striking

Malcolm Collins: they want to society. I mean, that’s the way that it appears. Part of what’s motivating the trans phenomenon might be working is it’s just like a literal parasitic infection combined with other that that could explain why we don’t see it anywhere else in human history as well.

If it’s a real phenomenon and it’s not just. You know, a social contagion. As I’ve pointed out, we see no other point in human history in which individuals and no other culture, in human history in which individuals not touched by Western culture had a desire to unlive themselves if they couldn’t change their gender.

We’ve seen varying forms of gender expression throughout history, but this sort of singular obsession with your gender seems to be totally [00:47:00] unique. Now, if that doesn’t make it a social phenomenon or a social contagion, like the belief in. Penis dealing witches in Africa or something like that or anorexia in the United States.

You can see our video where we talk about the similarities there. Well, what does that make it? That means it could be a legitimate parasite that has created,

Simone Collins: okay, so to sum this up, then. The force is, is evil. It’s an evil parasite. Well,

Malcolm Collins: it uses

Simone Collins: Jedi. Our, our, our actual scum and toxoplasmosis is the force and it’s all real.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, well, doesn’t give you special abilities other than being hornier and. Wanting to have same sex attraction. What’s

Simone Collins: the difference?

Malcolm Collins: But the mind

Simone Collins: control through mainstream media.

Malcolm Collins: Mind control. No, but it’s, it’s interesting that like the Jedi, they reproduce in the same way. They can’t have kids themselves, so they have to conversion.

Yeah. Convert other their people’s children. Taking on

Simone Collins: your children while they’re young. I mean,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. By getting to them young, and this is done through the school system, right? You know, [00:48:00] in many ways our world might be more dystopian because we send all children into the brainwashing factory. You know, regardless of what parents religion is, and I’ll note here in the Star Wars universe, it is completely implausible that the child giving up is completely voluntary because we know of a diverse array of religions throughout the Star War universe, and there are very few religions.

It would, would be okay with giving a 3-year-old to be raised in a completely other religion.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It just, well, I mean, it’s, it’s evolutionarily, I don’t care what species you are, alien human, whatever, humanoid you, it will not be your instinct unless you have a very, very unique way of raising your young.

To just have another species take your children. You know, unless you, and, and, and if you are using another species to raise your children, like you’re laying eggs in the body cavity of some other species. It’s, it’s not like this, you know, it, it’s, it’s in some other form. So anyway, I got with the kids.

I love you very [00:49:00] much. Making you,

Malcolm Collins: I want, I want your thoughts on this. So do you think that this was at all intentional? No.

Simone Collins: Do you

Malcolm Collins: think that?

Simone Collins: No, I think it was completely unintentional. I think this is just kind of, the way that people through one side of their mouth. Condemn, you know, pregnant women and children being used as terrorists, but then realize how convenient, like when writing out a plot in a completely separated, disjointed world, how useful it is to have child soldiers, right?

Like there’s a reason why these things happen, and that’s because they are logistically convenient. And when you’re writing a fantasy story and not thinking about things in the same way, you just spontaneously invent child soldiers. Child soldiers exist for a reason. People take and, and educate young children for a reason.

But again, speaking of children, I have to have to get,

Malcolm Collins: okay.

Simone Collins: Okay. You can wrap this up though without me if you want to.

Malcolm Collins: You’ve anchored the

Simone Collins: space

Malcolm Collins: Alien.

Simone Collins: He is. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve disguised [00:50:00] him.

Malcolm Collins: I, but I can’t believe how evil it really is. If you think about it, I think that Star Wars was intentionally written evil in a way they, they just don’t realize how evil their beliefs are when taken to their own conclusion. I think Star Wars was accidentally written evil.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It was accidentally evil. Bye.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I had an idea. This would be such a good RFA scenario.

Simone Collins: Okay, I’ll let you

Malcolm Collins: finish

Simone Collins: this.

Malcolm Collins: And I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do a place through one of these to create another one of my Malcolm stories. Okay? I haven’t done one of those in a while. But you start as a cis or a force sensitive that, that, that realizes the true nature of the Jedi.

And you’ve gotta navigate what to do next. You don’t wanna out yourself to the, the secret police that control everything, right? Or they’ll just execute you like they tried to do with one of the most powerful men in the entire empire.

Speaker 5: In a galaxy far away where the stars seal the line,

the[00:51:00]

this inside infects their blood.

Under a

sterilizing, the Celebrate devotion in.

The outsiders win. They snatch

at ages three five, brainwash them to [00:52:00] the swamp. The infection.

No breeding for the chosen ones.

There are soldiers marching all.

Speaker 6: Celebrate

Speaker 5: humanity replacing us. Jet coming for takeover, letting the outsiders win.[00:53:00]

The Republics a facade of rock. With monarchs born to rule, corporations pull the strengths, treating humans like a fool. Aliens said. Just out with schemes from banks to slave and chains, the hive. Mondays rise while humanity bears the pains. Mind parasite ruling, sterilizing the hosted claims for and celebrate devotion in twisted Holy Games.

Subjugating or humanity replacing us with daily and king Jetta coming. Foster takeover. Letting the outsiders win can storm the temples like SA in his. The young Ling’s pods of the infection on a doomed [00:54:00] infested trip killing them was mercies blade to halt the cycle spread. Brainwash tools of the hive mind better purge than left unde.

Palpatine unveiled the truth, struck down. The infected th throne empire rose to claim our place where humans could belong. No more bow until the swarm that lies about the forces might humanity fights Back at last in the endless cosmic night.

Parasite sterilizing the hosted claims, celibate devotion in it, twisted holy sub, all humanity replacing us with Elliot coming for us to take over, letting the outsiders win. Win, win, win, win. Win.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Dive into the latest Epstein leaks with Malcolm and Simone Collins on Based Camp! We break down the bizarre “pizza” obsession among elites (spoiler: it’s not about food), analyze what’s real vs. conspiracy hype—like torture videos, baby-eating claims, and connections to figures like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Trump, and Prince Andrew. Plus, we explore the fascinating science behind why wealthy men prefer youthful traits (backed by our own research on breast preferences and evolutionary psychology). From elite predator networks to why conservatives are embracing fetishes at Mar-a-Lago, we separate fact from fiction without holding back. Is Pizzagate back? We discuss without getting banned.

If you enjoy unfiltered takes on culture, science, and scandals, subscribe for more episodes! Check out our books “The Pragmatist’s Guide to Sexuality” and others at https://pragmatist.guide/

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. We are going crazy world with these Epstein leaks.

I swear rich people really love pizza.

Simone Collins: Such a

Malcolm Collins: big

Simone Collins: pizza problem.

Malcolm Collins: That is my big takeaway. I love it. Even after reading these, Simone, the credulous person, she is immediately is like, do I send so many emails about pizza? Yeah. So she goes to her inbox to see how many times she has mentioned pizza in, how, how many was it?

Simone Collins: So in 2025, it, it got a little messed up because we serve pizza at Octavia’s birthday. So not including those, we had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 emails. No, sorry, eight. Eight. That’s a

Malcolm Collins: suspicious number

Simone Collins: of emails. Well, no,

one was from [00:01:00] Octavian school district, one was from a scientific research paper. One was from an outline from one of our episodes. But it’s like we, we never, we never personally,

Malcolm Collins: don’t have any personal emails.

Simone Collins: Basically in, in, no, in no email from last year did we at any point. Talk about pizza over email, aside from a, a children’s birthday party invite. And the rest of it was just like quoting other people or people sending us emails.

Malcolm Collins: And we have children and aren’t super rich, right? Like we know the demographic.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. No, no, no. Here’s how bad the, the pizza we served in Octavian birthday was cooked in our oven anyway. It wasn’t even like

cooked

Malcolm Collins: in our oven

Simone Collins: Quartered pizza.

Malcolm Collins: No. So the, my favorite thing about this particular Epstein League is it the one guy who like wasn’t on board with the naming system and so everyone is like, Hey, how about that pizza and grape juice we had last night?

And then there’s this one guy who’s like, [00:02:00] I really like the torture video she sent me. I imagine Epstein, it’s like whenever you’re doing something that’s like shady at work and you have to get everyone together and you’re like, okay, you understand we do not email each other about this. Right? And

Simone Collins: then

Malcolm Collins: I really like the fraud we’re doing.

Simone Collins: I love that. I love the part where we hunted people for sport that

Malcolm Collins: love this one, this, this, this one guy who is still somehow, blanked in the, in the emails.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But what we’re gonna go over in this episode are two core questions. The first, and I think more interesting question is the science behind all of this which is, we are, for people who don’t know this actually pretty esteemed researchers in the sex space, was Aila even saying that our research is some of the best out there?

So, because I, I find it really fascinating and one of the biggest findings that we broke [00:03:00] that other people have, have, have found correlary since our breaking it. Is that the wealthier a man gets, the smaller his breast preference. Which if you’re looking at a societally Okay. Way to say you like younger women or potentially even what’s the word, hemophilia, where they’re, you know, teenagers or whatever women.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is the core market that Epstein dealt with. The, we gotta ask why. Why is this a trend? Why does it happen and how do networks of. Predators because in the past everyone who said there are elite networks of sexual predators like PDA files everyone would’ve said, that’s crazy.

You know, you would do that. It’s the, the classic conspiracy theory. And now it’s just like definitionally true. And the government tried to cover it up for a really long time,

Simone Collins: so bad.

It’s so bad. [00:04:00] We’re so back. Pizzagate is so back. You people,

Malcolm Collins: you can’t say that that’s one of the most likely to get you banned things on YouTube.

Simone Collins: Okay. Sorry.

Malcolm Collins: We can, we cannot talk about that. Oh, you don’t know guys. So some higher ups at YouTube really don’t want us talking about that exact word. But what we are going to, I wonder, I wonder why what we’re gonna do is the science of this, because I think it’s very interesting and I mean, for me, I just can’t imagine getting wrapped up in something like that.

I can imagine being into like weird stuff on my own right? But I can’t imagine wanting to do it with friends or entering like a big network of doers that then talk about it offline, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. So I wanna understand what’s going on there. And I say all this where Mar-a-Lago is literally having high profile furry parties.

Now, the rights just embracing [00:05:00] normal. Fricking fetishes these days. They’re like, you know what, furries we, we, we’ve made fun of them. Let’s have a furry party at the Mar-a-Lago. Right? Like all the conservative big ones. You threw these,

Simone Collins: we did it guys say the furries.

Malcolm Collins: Have you seen pictures of this, Simone?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I have. I have. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And then the other thing I wanna cover, because I’ve been genuinely disappointed by the top conservative influencer coverage of this Mm. Is what was real in this drop and what wasn’t real in this drop. Mm-hmm. And Nino and Asma Gold, who I really love, have just dropped the ball in terms of their credulousness in their coverage on this.

And so have a number of, I watch for just a quick summary. If you have heard stuff badged around and you’re not really sure. Oh, what’s likely this, what’s likely that? All of the stuff involving eating babies or torturing people or murdering people,

All of that, [00:06:00] all of that stuff.

Simone Collins: The aforementioned the torture video was great.

Email

Malcolm Collins: except for the torture video was great, but that was him. Oh, except

Simone Collins: for that one.

Malcolm Collins: That wasn’t him actively participating in torture. I’m talking about the all of this stuff that suggests that, not that he had like a collection of inappropriate videos which is, you know, if you’re talking about like depraved internet, Gunnar type individuals.

Even, even the recent leak was the, the conservative black stringer guy had stuff like that, right? I think,

Simone Collins: yeah, I mean, I guess the, the, the line between intense BDSM and beyond that is, is thin.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I wanted to, that there’s just no good evidence for any of that stuff. Even in the, the, the leaks, the one where they were like on a boat and eating babies.

Right.

Simone Collins: Oh, that, yeah. That

Malcolm Collins: one explicitly said it came from hypnosis. Recovered memories.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It

Malcolm Collins: sounds

Simone Collins: just like a schizo fever dream.

Malcolm Collins: If you have no experience [00:07:00] of if, if you have no experience with psychology and you’ve never taken any classes on, I’ll, I’ll just basically tell you what that means in psychology terms.

It means he made it up.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If, if you’ve been hypnotized and you remembered something,

Malcolm Collins: hypnotized, recovered memories are in, in my instance, there actually isn’t a single known instance of them. Recovering a conformably verifiable memory.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There isn’t a single known instance in all of human history of this working to recover real memories.

Sorry, I wanted to make sure of this, and there’s literally one potential exception in 1976 in the chia bus kidnapping tied to finding a license plate. Other than that, there is no instance ever in human history where this worked.

Malcolm Collins: it is a a mechanism for implant [00:08:00] memories. And these are exactly the type of schizo memories that somebody would’ve had implanted in them, especially if you look at the other things that he remembers about his life.

Like apparently everyone he knew growing up was griping him and stuff like that. It sounds like he just started to, one, everyone I know is griping me. And then two let’s also say that the famous people were doing it so I sound more important. Right. Secondly a lot of the other stuff like the ones with Gillian Maxwell, like tying somebody up and shocking them.

That one sounds like that could just be normal. PDSM re Yeah. And then two yeah,

Simone Collins: that’s just a good time people,

Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s from a random report from somebody that was unconfirmed, right? Yeah. It’s the same with the, the girl who was tortured as a s slave. Keep in mind that the person who wrote the book about Epstein, you know, the posthumous book, also described herself as an S slave, even though she very clearly was not what we would standardly consider an S slave.

And

Simone Collins: [00:09:00] there are actual, like many, many, many, many, many people who are in s slavery. So,

Malcolm Collins: so it, it is what I’m saying here is that I could see somebody else using the term incorrectly in, in, in this instance. And with the killing stuff, the fact that we have no body, no likely body, no like a a again, that just seems.

Un un plasible to me. The Elon connections are tentative from our, because people, you know, know now, we’ve had personal interactions with him. ‘cause the New York Times leaked it. He seemed to take personal pride in inve evading e Epstein and sort of sticking it to Epstein. And you can see how long he’s been trying to get the files released.

Simone Collins: Well, and I think it, it’s all, it also needs to be said, and this is really clear from mainstream journalistic reporting on how Epstein worked. The way he worked was to take anyone who was in a position of power and influence and put them into positions where he could blackmail them into doing what he wanted, which often involved extorting [00:10:00] money from them or making them do other things.

Either by, you know, saying they were gonna, he was gonna release really embarrassing things. So he would even, you know, he would try to even just through. Connection or, you know, I’m gonna send this person across your path in a way that’s gonna make you look bad. It’s kind of how Nick Fuentes used to photo bomb people, you know, to like, try to get them canceled back when that was possible to do.

Epstein did a much more sophisticated and much more dangerous version of that. Or maybe you’d hire him as an accountant and then, you know, he kind of said he was gonna handle some things and you kind of looked the other way. ‘cause you, it sounded really great and you didn’t wanna know. What he was doing because it, you know, you knew that it might be a little bit dubious and then suddenly you discover that he’s basically embezzling money from you, but you can’t not let him do it because what he did with your finances, with apparently, you know, with, with your tat oversight would put you in jail.

So that’s how he works. Yeah. That,

Malcolm Collins: that was his operation. So he

Simone Collins: intentionally

Malcolm Collins: would word emails in [00:11:00] ways that were meant to try to inc criminalize other people,

Simone Collins: incriminate. And well, and, and he would intentionally try to build connections with people and write about building connections with people to build this network.

Yeah. And so non consensually people got associated with him

Malcolm Collins: with the Elon emails. Like the biggest smoking gun you have is the one like, Hey, I, I’ll come to your island on whatever night the craziest party is. But it doesn’t appear that he went. And it’s important to note that when you’re talking about rich people like this, we have personally had.

Meetings confirmed with Elon that got blown off like two days beforehand or something like that. Like, th this is, when you’re talking about somebody of that level of wealth confirming something and then not showing up is an over 50% of the time type of thing. Especially if it’s something social like an island party or something like that.

It seems very likely Elon just blew him off. So I, I I see nothing there. There was nothing additional on Trump that was meaningful. More stuff on how much Epstein hated Trump and how much Trump hated Epstein. He really

Simone Collins: did. [00:12:00] Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There was unconfirmed allegations against Trump, but these allegations have been around the public for a long time.

And in terms of people our side wants to get like Zohan Mond, they’re like, he’s in the Epstein files. Not really. His mom was, he had a, had a screening for one of her movies and that was listed in the Epstein files. Like Epstein had it at one of his estates or something. And so she and him would’ve been at the same party, like, Ooh, spooky.

And I need you to keep in mind when you’re like, oh, people don’t just make stuff up to try to associate themselves with random, famous people who are sort of doing the rounds. We had a 20 minute crash out about how we are vampires who practice dark magic on the number one podcast in the world about us, on the Joe Rogan Podcast.

See our episode about that if you want, like when you are on the tongue of the public. People have crash outs about you. And and the cool thing about that one is it [00:13:00] pulled from a lot of real sources. I thought he did a good job researching it. I, I like that crash out, right? Like, that was like a, okay.

Yeah. Kurt

Simone Collins: Metzger gets your gold star of approval.

Malcolm Collins: Cold star. Yeah.

Simone Collins: No. What’s, what’s hilarious is I feel like Kurt Metzger’s take on us was, no, actually it’s not. I feel, I know for a fact that Kurt Metzger’s take on us on the Joe Rogan experience was more accurate than Matt Bernstein’s appear. Take on us like hour long, I think hour plus long take on us in.

The a bit fruity podcast, which is insane to me because presumably he did research. He did an entire podcast just about us. Kurt Metzger just mentioned us offhand after like two hours of conspiracy theorizing and he got more right

Malcolm Collins: stuff and it was all closer than normal. Progressive talking points about us.

Simone Collins: Isn’t that insane? What even why? But I feel like, yeah, we’re in the era where the conspiracy theories are more correct than the mainstream leftist. What I’m saying is

Malcolm Collins: conservatives expect more of their conspiracy theorists.

Simone Collins: We [00:14:00] do higher standard, higher standard.

Malcolm Collins: It was progressives. You just say the narrative and nobody thinks to question you and you won’t get in trouble if you’re wrong.

If the person’s a bad, naughty person,

Simone Collins: apparently.

Malcolm Collins: But I guess I went on too far of a tangent with what’s real and what’s not. Okay. So what is real in the latest drop? Like what’s actually,

Simone Collins: what is likely real? Again, this is all conjecture on our part. We’re not experts,

Malcolm Collins: we’re

Simone Collins: spiders.

Malcolm Collins: The big likely ones are more stuff on the print.

It appears that Prince was a bigger part of the operation than had previously been believed.

Simone Collins: Prince Andrew.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And he really used the fact that Andrew was at a party to try to get other famous people to go and to legitimize the parties.

Simone Collins: That totally makes sense. Absolutely. 100%.

Malcolm Collins: That was his lure and authentication mechanism as much as the girls were.

Simone Collins: And then this is this, I know also provably, this is how elite society meetings go. When you invite elite people to an event, the top hook that, that is used, and this is across different networks, groups meetings, conferences, [00:15:00] is who else is going you know, will I be able to see this other person that I want to know?

And it doesn’t seem like there’s a cap to someone’s level of money or fame. And their excitement about meeting some other famous people like you don’t instantly get to just meet or DM anyone else who’s famous. If you yourself are famous, famous people still want access to other famous people. And so those who, who manipulate them and connect them with each other, which included Jeffrey Epstein use them as lures to catch more.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and, and it works really. I mean, especially that’s, this is one of the reasons why I, I was gonna say, I’ll go into why the PDA networks grow as soon as you’ve been implicated and something even edge case like that. Mm-hmm. Now all of a sudden you sort of need to go along with it and be really nice to the person.

And the way that Epstein did it, to explain to you why it’s so nefarious, ‘cause I pointed this out in previous videos, our society [00:16:00] has a very, very bad trait, which we should not do, which is conflating hemophilia with. PBA files. Okay. If you’re not familiar, hemophilia is like a 17-year-old, 16-year-old girl or something like that.

Mm-hmm. Now, Epstein can send to your room a 17 or 16-year-old girl without you knowing that this girl is 17 or 16 years old. She grew up in Russia. She lived a hard life. She may look a bit older. I mean, you’ve seen the pictures of Gen Z these

Simone Collins: days. Also a in terms of we, we, even if we’re talking about the legality or illegality of it depending on, and keep in mind, Epstein’s parties, events, the network, et cetera, highly international, these things are happening not always in the United States

.

I don’t know, Malcolm, if you could pull up an age of consent map, but when someone first showed one to me, I was kind of floored by how low the age of consent is in other countries.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it was really low. It’s like 14 or something in a lot of

Simone Collins: years. Yeah. So I mean, Epstein, you know, could have been hosting a party in, in some other country and [00:17:00] sending girls over and it was totally legal, like nothing bad happened, but, so while it’s creepy.

It’s not illegal in those instances

Malcolm Collins: either Then, then the way this works is he sends over somebody who you don’t have a clear way to know, and you don’t think that somebody’s sending an underage person to your room or something like that.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah. Or also like you’re a dude, you’re drunk and you’re at a party.

Like there’s a point point coming on. People don’t say no. Yeah. It’s just, I think this is really well demonstrated by those various research studies, which probably wouldn’t pass an ethics pass, an ethics board now, where they had female researchers just walk up to random guys on a college campus and was like, Hey, you wanna go?

Like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: would you like to have sex with me? And the boys would be, no, no questions asked. Just like, yes. I think even wealthy men are like other

Malcolm Collins: big, real one that is the most embarrassing, most horrible thing ever is the Bill Gates one.

Simone Collins: Oh gosh.

Malcolm Collins: Like, but for people who haven’t heard, I’ll be quick about it because it’s so embarrassing.

He asked how he could get antibiotics to [00:18:00] slip to his wife secretly after attracting a STD from a Russian hooker. And that is the most embarrassing leak I have ever. It actually made me feel bad for Bill Gates. And I know this is horrible ‘cause Bill Gates is being a sleaze ball in this entire situation.

But

Simone Collins: I was like, well also not being resourceful, I mean, like we have. They’re expired now, but we have entire boxes full of antibiotics that we picked up in Peru. ‘cause you can just buy them over the counter in most cases.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins: it’s also lot, he could just get it. He could just get the antibiotics he needed.

He didn’t need to ask you

Malcolm Collins: give me pills that I take every day without really questioning. Like, I’ve been like, what are these new ones? And you’re like, I don’t know. I freaking do, do. I’m

Simone Collins: like, take them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, take the pills. And, and it’s the same as me and you. If I just came to you and was like, Hey, take these pills for a week.

And

Simone Collins: you’re like, you’re like, sure.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. And I’d be like, just take ‘em Simone. Like come on. What? Sure. But like that, that’s already a breakdown in communication right [00:19:00] there. Although maybe we are way too trusting of each other now that I think about it. That you’re just like, Malcolm New pills. I read some study.

You don’t, you don’t need to confirm. Your doctor said so you don’t

Simone Collins: forget Malcolm. I chose the bear. Maybe you really should be question

Malcolm Collins: anyway. Yeah. You chance the bear. Right? So, the Bill Gates thing. Super embarrassing.

Okay. I was wrong on this one. The Bill Gates smoking gun was an unsent email in Epstein’s. Angry Unsent email list, drafts list. So it’s not as strong of a smoking gun as I thought because Bill Gates didn’t send it. Bill Gates didn’t confirm it. He didn’t even receive it. Now, it would be very weird to write an unsent email like this if this was entirely fictional or wrong.

Uh, but Epstein specialized in trying to get other, like to create. The interpretation of dirt on other people, [00:20:00] so I’ll mark this as maybe less a hundred percent than I originally thought.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry, where was I going? But yes, the point being is he gets you the first time with somebody you don’t know is underage.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then it’s like, well, then you have to go again. And then this other time you’re at a party and oh no, somebody is, you know, something more egregious is happening and you saw it and you have to pretend you’re okay with it ‘cause you’re at the party on an island. And you don’t wanna pretend to be, you know, and a lot of these people grew up nerds and stuff like that, so they’re like, I guess I’m okay with this now.

Mm-hmm. So that, that’s how you get, you know, looped into this stuff in, in regards to the science of like wealthy men and why they are more likely to likely this stuff mm-hmm. Than non wealthy men.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll quickly go into this for our audience. ‘cause it, it is fascinating from an evolutionary perspective.

So

Simone Collins: I mean, and then again, these are our theories. As to why this would be the case.

Malcolm Collins: The data that we pulled on this was really striking when we pulled the data, so I’ll pull it up. You’re, you’re acting like it’s just a theory. Wealthy men prefer smaller breasts. This pattern is even more [00:21:00] striking than we anticipated in our data.

Not a single man in the wealthiest category of those taking our survey reported preferring a breast size above average with around half preferring small breasts. So around half of wealthy men preferred the smallest breast size selectable in a breast selection list. Our survey respondents who reported being in the second highest well category reported preferring breasts, small breasts, but at a rate of 17% and a robust 84% Preferred breasts of average are smaller.

So if you’re, if you’re wealthy, but not in the super category of wealth, still 84% are preferring smaller than average bass breasts. Contrast that was the lowest category of income. We are only. 5% of men said they preferred the smallest category of breasts. Now, keep in mind, what was it? Over 50% in the wallies category, 5% in the lowest category.

And so the question is, what’s what’s going on here? Right? Like, what’s what? Because you can’t, a wall breast kind of know to not say that they’re interested in morphologically youthful women, right? So they’re gonna have some [00:22:00] other way of saying that, and this was an easy way for us to track that.

So, what, what does that, why, why would you have this preference? If you are a male, you are in a very interesting position in terms of what arouses you, right? Which is to say, typically in a species what you are going to have aroused, you are traits that are morphologically unique to the opposite gender of your species.

And in humans, what are the traits that are morphologically unique to human females? It is breasts, it is hip to waist ratio. It is a slightly larger butt unless you are African, and then it’s a much larger butt because there’s a morphological difference there. And then in some unique groups like the cosign, you have other morphologically gender unique things, but generally a breast, breast and waist to hip ratio.

The problem with that is as a male, you are not only optimizing for a morphologically. Female partner, right? [00:23:00] Like the most female possible. You have a second thing that you’re optimizing for, which is a length of her fertility window, because that determines how many kids you can have. All right? Women with the highest length fertility window are going to be in the category.

You know, I, I would think like your, your best fertility years are what, like two years after puberty or something like that. So that’s gonna be like 16, 15. I think 16 is probably like the sweet spot, right? And then this explains why a lot of countries have like 14, it’s the younger age for consent

Now I need to clarify that the absolute peak for getting pregnant, like conceivably is early twenties. This is the peak for if you’re trying to maximize your fertility window.

Now.

I, I don’t think that’s good. I think that kids develop at a slower rate in modern society. And so while I think that you likely were not actually causing psychological trauma or damage when this was happening, you know, when 14-year-old, a [00:24:00] 15-year-old arranged marriages were happening in a medieval context, I think a kid in a modern context is certainly gonna have developmental issues tied to that because they’re going to be, well, I mean, they do technically develop faster these days because of the chemicals that they have.

I mean, girls go through puberty earlier, but I think mentally they develop a lot slower.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t actually know the reasoning behind the different ages, but I do know that in terms of health complications they, they are higher. When you are uniquely young.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. When you’re like very young, like right after puberty.

I did not say. Right. I mean like a few. But anyway, the point here being is that if you are unga, bunga, caveman, I don’t care about ethics. I wanna have as many babies as possible. Which is like what you genes are.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right.

Simone Collins: And if you know that you have resources sufficient to care for your.

Partners as well. So you don’t need to make sure that they have excess fat stores.

Malcolm Collins: Well, well, we will get to that in a second because you also see this important individuals, they prefer fatter, larger breasts. Again, you, you see this as well. Mm-hmm. So you, you as a male are [00:25:00] pulled between two things. One is being sure that they are a female, which is larger breasts and wider waist to hip ratio.

Mm-hmm. And two is being sure that they are younger, which is smaller breasts, smaller waist to hip ratio. So you’re, you’re dealing with. Two opposite patterns here, right? Mm-hmm. And what I hypothesize is that if you are extremely well resourced, you are better off optimizing for the secondary pattern, right?

Optimizing for the longer fertility window, because you was the, with the other guys, you’re basically like, okay, I want to ensure that she has fat stores, that she’s healthy, that we can make kids right now, and that those kids will be healthy if made right now. Mm-hmm. And we’ll get maybe four kids or something like that, right?

Mm-hmm. For wealthy guy, it’s, well, I wanna aim for like 20 kids, right? Yeah. Like, I wanna aim for like 17 kids, right? Like, yeah.

Simone Collins: [00:26:00] Long-term investments like the Yeah. They’re willing to

Malcolm Collins: I can afford those 17 kids, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I can afford those 20 kids. Right. So you, you would have a biological benefit from having this dimorphic preference in arousal patterns.

Mm-hmm. Which will explain why and you actually see this in other parts of the data which is to say that wealthier men, in terms of how they do mate displays and this was interesting for, for women being less wealthy, that we found in our data is that they prefer more stereotypically masculine men.

EG, the like wood chopper, lumberjack car mechanic type guy. Right. Like very, very buffin masculine.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Whereas wealthy women. Prefer, well, like metrosexual, vampire, like looking guy. Fair enough. You know,

Simone Collins: that’s, I didn’t know about that. That’s very interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and you also see this was males males prefer [00:27:00] more like if, if you look at like what are other like gender dimorphic displays that a woman could make, right?

Mm-hmm. Well, she could grow out her nails super long. Yeah. She could grow super long hair.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Think about the trashy low class women who like trashy low class men. Like they’ve got these super long nails, they’ve got these super large butt displays. They’ve got these really long hair.

Simone Collins: Yikes. Oh

Malcolm Collins: no.

And then consider the type of woman that say like, Elon goes after like a Grimes or something like that. You know, you’re looking at a smaller breast, shorter hair more of a sort of like. I, I, I guess I, I, I’d say the, the really, really classy look which can come off as a little boyish and has throughout recent history the, the very, very, like wealthy high-end woman typically comes off as a little puckish, I guess is the word I’d use.

You know, I’m, I’m thinking puck from the, you know, the, [00:28:00] the play, right? Like,

Simone Collins: oh yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if you look at and

Simone Collins: the play amid Summer Night’s Dream

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Marry a woman who, or go after a woman who doesn’t look puckish it immediately. Other people call it out. They’re like, that is low class or weird looking, right?

Like when you see

Jeff Bezos, who’s his current partner, who looks like a street walking prostitute you immediately look at this and you’re like. Something is, something is off about that. But consider that Jeff Bezos is also breaking the other norm that we typically see with wealthy men, which is he is not going after the more ife, elite vampire look.

Either he’s going after the Buff Weightlifter look. If you look at another person who breaks this trend very famously as

Donald Trump, right? Like, he doesn’t break it as extremely as Jeff Bezos does, but a lot of people comment that Donald Trump. is a poor person’s idea of what a rich person wants to be like.

Right? Like, and [00:29:00] I think that he’s that way in everything from the way he architecturally does his house to the way that he does anything else. Right. But yeah. And this, this, I, I think, shows. An instinctual reaction of other people that, oh, they don’t really fit the pattern, but if you imagine like a, a Bruce Wayne Gala or something like that. Right. Yeah. And I’ve been to lots of like charity galas and stuff like that.

It is very common among upper class women to accentuate sort of short hair is very common among upper class hairstyles. In fact it wasn’t until we started appealing to a mainstream conservative audience that Simone Cut grew out her hair. Before that, because the core audience we were, everyone knows we, we did the circuit on like the secret societies and all of that.

It was fairly rare in those events for women to have longer hair. And so, you know, fitting in, that’s the crowd that we’re into. I, I personally find shorter hair more attractive on women. She kept her hair shorter. And then. When we [00:30:00] went to other of like, when we started appealing to you guys, who was it?

Brian Johnson was like, you should grow out your hair to appeal to it. More standard.

Simone Collins: No, Brian, Brian Kaplan.

Malcolm Collins: Brian Kaplan. Yeah. Brian Kaplan said,

Simone Collins: Brian Johnson don’t die. Brian Kaplan, selfish reasons to have more kids. Immigration is good. That kind

Malcolm Collins: of thing. Okay. Okay. So I’m pointing out that yes, our image is tailored for you guys.

I’m about to do a major image change, which I’m excited about as soon as the stuff gets in from messy to fit Simone’s more medieval style. I’ve learned, and this is really sad, I thought about doing an entire episode on it, is that my look right now, which is sort of the, I call it the Mr. Rogers look, which is just the, the nice normal guy look

Simone Collins: spitter.

Malcolm Collins: Unfortunately, it’s been co-opted by lesbians.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: And I get too many comments,

Simone Collins: whatever. How dare they. They also took the leather jacket.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. So I also wear the leather jacket. It co-opted by lesbian.

Simone Collins: You can’t wear a leather jacket anymore.

You can’t wear a sweater anymore. Like what can you wear? Honestly,

Malcolm Collins: what I, I, I was trying to come off as [00:31:00] is is is just like the nice dad look. Right. Like the Mr. Rogers look. Right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: nope,

Simone Collins: without looking dumpy or s Sports Fanny.

Malcolm Collins: I think Ellen DeGeneres is the one who messed it all up. You know, crew cut sweater, you know.

Yeah, glasses. Everyone just immediately is like, oh, not Mr. Rogers. You’re Ellen DeGeneres.

Simone Collins: Oh, I, I was thinking more who’s the woman who is sure about Russiagate? Rachel Meadow.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, that’s why I was thinking Rachel Maddow. Well, Ellen is Ellen DeGeneres another one who does that look

Simone Collins: kind of, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, I was thinking Rachel Maddow in my head when I said that.

Simone Collins: yeah. She and chunky glasses and short hair. Absolutely. Like. If I squint it, it looks a little, a little, little alchemy.

Malcolm Collins: But the point that I’m making here is that this exaggerated, like gender display is something that like societally we’ve known for a long time. Poor people prefer e exaggerated [00:32:00] gender dimorphic figures.

Mm-hmm. And wealthy people of boast, genders prefer more androgynous features.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And this could be an overlap, like women accidentally, ex ex displaying part of the male. Very interesting thing we did in our study on this is how much people of each gender get turned on imagining themselves as the opposite gender.

And wealthy women very frequently get turned on by imagining themselves.

Simone Collins: That’s true. That did show up in our survey data. That really surprised me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But interestingly. Poor males frequently get turned on by imagining themselves as females. So just fun data stuff here. I just love science. I love it.

I love the data. It’s fun. It’s fun to think about, like, why, why do you see this weird pattern? Why do you see this weird pattern? And as we’ve pointed out before, having one of these networks where like you are in the network and now all of a sudden you can’t tell anyone and you feel you have some sort of a connection with everyone else in this network, even if you were brought into it sort of [00:33:00] clandestinely.

Mm-hmm. Well, now of a sudden you have reasons to do, like if you meet someone in public, right? Somebody comes up for a job or an appointment or something and you’ve got one of two names, one of them, you know, from your parties, one of them you don’t know from your parties. You pick the name, you know, from your parties of, of course.

‘cause that’s safer, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Everyone prefers a known entity. Trust isn’t necessarily about liking, it’s about predicting. And the more exposure you have to someone, typically, the more you can predict them and therefore

Malcolm Collins: more you can trust. So now all of a sudden, everyone in this wider network moves up, moves up, moves up, moves up.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now let’s talk about the torture stuff, right? This, this is interesting as well.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This was another thing that we found in terms of wealthy people. Wealthy high power men had more in terms of the aggression, dominance, pathway of arousal which makes sense. You know, you you’re more likely to be a raider, which is where that pathway is most relevant.

Absolutely. One, the things you need to remember about somebody, because the, I really like the torture videos that [00:34:00] freaked a lot of people out, right? Because they were like, why is this name black down stone? Should we be looking into this? And then people looked at who could it possibly be? Mm-hmm. There are three real candidates based on the time that the sender of that was in China.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Because the email didn’t include something about like, see you in China or It was great seeing

Malcolm Collins: you China. No, I’m in China now. I’m coming back to the US on these days. Okay. That the, the one of them was like a conservative, like Lindsey Graham or something, but he has no connection to Epstein, so unlikely.

Another one was some UK politician, the one who stepped down maybe,

Simone Collins: which one Who stepped down?

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I think the most likely one was Bill Gates.

Simone Collins: Well, and I recall there was some other email where they were like, was thinking about inviting, blanked out name to Epstein I Island, but basically like they lack the discretion or emotional intelligence or something that, which could be the same person who was like, Ooh, the torture.

I

Malcolm Collins: do torture.

Simone Collins: And like, I think maybe it, they, yeah, they had to kind of be careful about it.

Malcolm Collins: I can see, oh, that

Simone Collins: island where we do the, you know, [00:35:00] beep. Yeah. Hey mom,

Malcolm Collins: how long it, it immediately getting on air? Like going up like kid Rock did, after going to the Bohemian Grove, I remember, I’m always very buttoned about the Bohemian Grove.

He immediately does like this huge speech about the Bohemian Grove for like Vanity Fair or something like immediately. Oh, he went

Simone Collins: straight to the mainstream media about

Malcolm Collins: it? Yeah. He or might have been what, what is that? Rolling Stones. It might have been like a Rolling Stones. It’s like, did you not like get any of the memos about this

place?

I’m

Simone Collins: sure he was very enthused to never be invited back though. So he was,

Malcolm Collins: no, he got super, um. I can’t tell any of the stories about what happened to him there. Uh, No. He was not interested in not being invited back.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Uh, Drama. I, I, I’ll, I’ll point it this way. If you guys are like, the drama was not about anything sexual.

It is not about anything that you, the [00:36:00] general public would find scandalous. It is about

I wish I could say it because it’s so comedic to a mainstream conservative audience. You’d be like, wait, that’s what caused drama there.

Simone Collins: Damn, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I

Simone Collins: tease us.

Malcolm Collins: How do I I think. In high society when you’re used to hanging out with a lot of low society conservatives, you can forget how many there are.

And

Simone Collins: Oh

no,

Malcolm Collins: that can cause drama. I, I gotta cut that out. I can’t have that in there. That’s way too specific.

Simone Collins: Oh God. Oh, man.

That makes sense though.

Malcolm Collins: But the point being is, is at the grove itself, none of this stuff is happening. It’s, oh, and I even got up. If

Simone Collins: only

Malcolm Collins: I’ll describe like what does actually happen at The Grove. I got into with a number of people on like the top council of the Grove. Like we got together and we planned to [00:37:00] prank together.

So this is like me. Pranking was taught people at the Grove and we dressed up as deer and went through where there’s like security camera footage area

Simone Collins: oh, like, like hunting cams or animal cams?

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. It was like the, the cams for like people trying to sneak into the park or something, to like mess with like the guards or whatever.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: okay. This is, this is the type of, it’s the type of prank that somebody in a 1920s or thirties secret society on, like Harvard would’ve thought was hilarious.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s, or like boy Scouts, that’s, it’s like, it’s a little, it’s a little too adorable.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, yeah. It is, it is a, it is adorable old man pranks because that’s what it is.

It’s a place full of old men.

Simone Collins: Oh no. That’s too wholesome.

Malcolm Collins: It is, it is not. Whatever you’re imagining. It it, I mean obviously there’s a lot of gay stuff that goes on there that’s been reported since what, what president reported

Simone Collins: that Isn’t that Nixon,

Malcolm Collins: so I’m not leaking that. Yeah, Nixon. But like, that makes sense when you have a bunch of [00:38:00] like, wealthy conservatives meeting in, in secret that’s that’s

Simone Collins: without their wives.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, that is, that is the, as far as the salacious of environments like that go they are not these terrible, horrible things. And keep in mind on the Kid Rock stuff that I mentioned anything I heard there was just hearsay, I don’t know, idea of it directly. So, you know, don’t even say, oh, this definitely happened.

It’s

Simone Collins: allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly,

Malcolm Collins: allegedly the rumors, nope. The, the, the, the point I am making is that you can build these networks that are like actually secret, like the Epstein Network actually doing bad things. And these can be used to skyrocket the career of everyone involved with these networks.

We used this to explain in an episode that we had to do for fans only because they had audio issues. In the second part, why the Trump administration is, has so many gay conservatives in it. There was a, a, a quote from like a conservative female influencer that was like, oh, I was really excited to hook my friends up with some new incoming members of the administration, you [00:39:00] know, now that well, they’re gay and they’re all gay.

And that, that’s happened because you can get sort of these networks where, well, we all know each other from the gay party and we have some degree of solidarity and, you know, you get invited to the party.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah.

Simone Collins: Well, I think a, a key distinguishing factor, I, I think between. Elite social networks that are innocuous or just coordinating and maybe a little bit insider trading, but not super evil demonic is.

How the influence is built. There’s sort of the carrot and the stick, and Epstein definitely built a stick based network built around blackmail or literally implicating people in things that were federal offenses. And we’ve seen the

Malcolm Collins: latest leak. Him threatening people with leaks.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That there, yeah, he’s, he’s threatening people with stuff that could get them in, like ruin their reputation.

Which, I mean, bill Gates spent what, billions of dollars on his public reputation. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Trying to look like a good boy.

Simone Collins: They’re

Malcolm Collins: his no work [00:40:00] was like, can you imagine how much money he spent, how much effort he spent to try to look like a decent human being to the general public? And I’m like, Simone, it’s always the people who are at their core, actually pretty evil, who do that.

I was like, someone, one of our core jobs in terms of media and everything like that is playing the villain. And yet

Simone Collins: it’s so much more fun that way. Oh.

Speaker: . This town isn’t big enough for two super villains. Oh, you are a villain. All right. Just not a super one. Yeah. What’s the difference?

Speaker 2: Presentation.

Malcolm Collins: Like, we don’t have these big skeletons in our closet or anything like that. Like

Simone Collins: no skeletons.

Malcolm Collins: I find the thought of sleeping was a hooker, like actively disgusting.

Right? Like, it’s not that I wouldn’t sleep with another woman, she would just be a wealthy, powerful woman. If I did like, and I was gonna cheat on my wife, I just don’t wanna

Simone Collins: sleep. Or a virgin

Malcolm Collins: or, yeah. Yeah. I don’t wanna sleep with low class women. Right?

Simone Collins: Like, well, no. Yeah. I mean, well you also just seem to have an aversion to body count, which I think is, [00:41:00] is probably the primary reason.

That’s another thing

Malcolm Collins: I have a big

Simone Collins: aversion to. Yeah. Yeah. And that, like, that’s a, that’s just a an aversion that some men have, which just mean that like no matter how powerful a man gets, I think that there is going to be a certain number, which actually could be another reason why a common denominator did end up being young women.

Was that. Those were like at, they at least looked less past

Malcolm Collins: lower body count. Yeah.

Simone Collins: So, yeah. So if there were men there who, like maybe there were men who were super attracted to extra young looking women, maybe there were also men there who were like really against what appeared to be high body count call girls, even if they were very elite.

Right. So like, I, it could be just a good you know, like at, at a at a party, you, you might choose to serve. Salsa and chips because everyone likes salsa and chips. Like it’s inoffensive. Who’s gonna hate it? Right? And, and maybe, you know, chips and they, they’re the, they’re the chips and salsas of, of girls.

Because, you know,

Malcolm Collins: but one of the [00:42:00] points I was making here that’s important to remember is the torture thing, right? Like, people are like, oh, you know,

Simone Collins: the torture video was great. Why I never get over that.

Malcolm Collins: Bill Gates, why would he be into something like that? Right. You know?

Simone Collins: Are you so sure?

Allegedly, why, why is your guess? Which is completely based on nothing. And we’re not saying anything about Bill Gates don’t come for us. Why do you think Bill Gates is a can?

Malcolm Collins: Because we have the times that he was in China and the timing that he was coming back to the

Simone Collins: United States. Oh, okay. Wait, so yeah, you said there were three people, so it was Bill Gates, the, the UK politician or,

Malcolm Collins: One random conservative politician in the US who has no known connection to Epstein.

So I can basically rule him out.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So it’s, it is basically either Bill Gates or this UK politician.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Ouch.

Malcolm Collins: Or you could argue if it was

Simone Collins: one of them, it’s just some random who, you know.

Malcolm Collins: No, or you could argue if it was one of them, then why did all the other embarrassing stuff about them get released?

It was somebody who has the ability to still keep their name covered up. So

Simone Collins: it’s so good for them.

Malcolm Collins: But, but the point being [00:43:00] is that a lot of these people like your Bill Gates of the world, you know, there are ancestors who raided in pillage still had more surviving offspring than the ones who didn’t like, I think

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: people get very blinded by the nerdy look or even nerdy affectation like glasses.

Like people think, oh, this means that I would, would I point out that I actually. Phenotypically look like.

Simone Collins: Clavicular.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like if you look at my actual face without glasses, I look like I could be related to ula, right? I wear glasses specifically to hide that I look like this.

Okay. My audience and my branding is nerd. I don’t want to look like this in my nerd branding. I’m, I’m an anime guy, okay? Who reads Korean manga about the historic romances, right? Like I don. Want to, to look like that or, or jump out with that brand. My brand is wholesome dad, right? Or, or, or, we are nerdy guy.

Simone Collins: By the way, if, if you are one of our [00:44:00] paid subscribers on Substack or Patreon, you can get Malcolm’s full list of recommended Korean Romance manga on web tunes. So you don’t have to look for yourself. You can, you can just go to that. It would be random.

Malcolm Collins: But what I’m putting is a lot of people see a quick stereotype in somebody like Bill Gates and they assume, oh, his ancestors wouldn’t have had these evolutionary pressures on them or had these kinds of preferences built in, into sort of the genetic lottery.

Well,

Simone Collins: but also, like anyone who’s gonna Bill Gates biography knows that he’s, he’s famously quite aggressive actually. But I don’t know why people. A lot of assume because he’ll wear like a sweater vest and he looks a little dumpy.

Malcolm Collins: Again, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s branding, right? Like it’s, it’s branding as not an aggressive person.

If you look at Elon’s old branding, for example, like, not, not Elon circa 2026, but Elon circa, let’s say 2015, he looked incredibly nerdy except this was the period where he was having fist fights with his brother in like the middle of the office, right? Like, [00:45:00] I people are very bad at, at judging phenotypical aggression in males when basically glasses or stereotypes come into the picture.

Mm-hmm. Which I think is, is, is, is one of the flaws on the right. You can’t judge a lot about a person from their face. We’ve gone over this, look at our video chronology as back baby. But you have to be able to edit out the glasses or the sweater before you make that judgment. And a lot of people just really struggle to do that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I, I’m, I’m really excited. I haven’t done the research yet, but I’m really excited to look into this to see if there’s some portion of the population that literally you, you know, that those disguise costumes. It’s like a fake nose and glasses that look like these, and a mustache. If like, that actually works on a certain portion of the population.

Like where did he go? How, like, you know when, when you put a mask on in front of a toddler, they’re like, where’s my mom? You know, they just freak out. I feel like some people maybe never lose that, or they never develop. I remember

Malcolm Collins: the first time one of our [00:46:00] infants saw me with wet hair and they absolutely freaked

Simone Collins: out.

Were like, lost their minds. Yes. Who? Yes,

Malcolm Collins: it’s a deformed version of Daddy. But the final thing I wanna go into here is the pizza labels. Because I think that we may have discounted a previous instance that we can’t really talk about that much. A little too out of hand, but I can’t talk about it at all.

Might do it on a weekend episode.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But these, these are from the Epstein files. And a lot of people know that pizza is alleged to be used in some PDA file rings as code for children. Famously, well, specifically

Simone Collins: cheese pizza. Yeah, that’s

Malcolm Collins: Well, and well, what’s important to note is cheese pizza actually doesn’t appear once in the Epstein files.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And so the thought is maybe it stands instead for paid sex workers instead of,

Malcolm Collins: well, he would use the words pizza and grape soda.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Frequently. Which is weird ‘cause nobody has pizza and grape soda at a party.

Simone Collins: Well, it’s weird. Like I, I, I don’t, I don’t know when I’ve last seen grape [00:47:00] soda in a, in a grocery store.

It didn’t occur to me until I was going through this. I was like, why is he using grape soda as the code word? And I was like, oh yeah, whatever. We talk about R on YouTube, we always have to call it grape. That’s what he’s talking about. He’s talking about someone they can grape.

Malcolm Collins: But let’s go over this.

Simone Collins: Right? Where are they getting it? Like if they, if they actually were getting any,

Malcolm Collins: This is better than a Chinese cookie. Exclamation mark, see attached. Let’s go for pizza and grape soda again. No one else can understand. Go. No. Now that is not what you say about pizza. Real pizza.

That doesn’t No, that’s not,

Simone Collins: no. Yeah. If you’re, if you’re gushing about it, you’re like, man, Zachary’s deep dish is unbelievable. The sauce. I don’t know what they put in it, but it’s probably

Malcolm Collins: like, yeah, you would talk about something about the pizza that

Simone Collins: made it unbelievable. Yeah. The best crust ever. I think it’s just pie crust with like, you know, [00:48:00] oh

Malcolm Collins: God.

You wouldn’t just say pizza and grape soda again. Okay, let’s go further. Spoof on chandelier. The video I sent you was the amazing little girl dance, is what this is titled. Totally loved it.

Simone Collins: This might be another tone deaf person, little

Malcolm Collins: Girl Dance.

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: So the, the video, the, in the title of this email, the video I sent you about the amazing Little Girl dance, totally loved it.

And this isn’t a reply to it, by the way. Dot, dot do pizza party was great. Exclamation mark. We had a lot of fun. Stayed late. We all slept in yesterday morning. Your night was good. So he stayed over after a pizza party with a bunch of wealthy people?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t think so.

Simone Collins: No? Mm-hmm. No. No.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Next here. Pizza time exclamation mark. Thank you. We love to have blink with [00:49:00] us. He is too cute. Excl Mark. Excl. Mark. Have a great week. Xo. Xo. Thanks for taking the boys for pizza. Blink was sad. He had to leave the fun. Hope you have a great time skiing. Be safe.

Simone Collins: Oh, that sounds, I mean, taking the boys for pizza, that sounds like something.

Malcolm Collins: This sounds more

Simone Collins: a soccer mom would do you know that, that one I’m okay with. It’s

Malcolm Collins: more plausible.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The other one, but I like that we can say that like the other ones seem implausible. This one seems plausible actually.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I mean, there’s some things in the past that we cannot refer to about, like, say pizza related. You, you, you forgot your pizza related map. You know, there are certain things that just are, don’t make sense, but there are other things that I’m like, yeah, that’s normal. Like pizza, disgusting relation to a soccer game.

Totally plausible. Pizza and soccer are like socks and shoes, but other things here. [00:50:00]

Malcolm Collins: And then there’s a lot where you can’t tell

Simone Collins: pizza and chandeliers. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: No pizza chandeliers and little girls. No.

Simone Collins: They don’t go together. They don’t go together. No.

Malcolm Collins: And you see this everywhere. It’s in the, it’s in the files.

911 times.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And again, like in, in my inbox, it’s not there. It’s, it’s only there if like someone else emails me about it or if I mentioned it in the one literal birthday party invite we send out in relation to a 6-year-old.

Malcolm Collins: Let’s go for pizza and grape soda, you know, pizza and grape soda tomorrow to get pizza and grape soda.

You can pick me up tomorrow at 8:18 PM after you use them. Wash your hands and let’s get pizza and grape soda.

Simone Collins: Wash your hands

Malcolm Collins: after you use them. Referring to pizza as them and wash your hands. And who starts a pizza night at [00:51:00] 8:11 PM

Simone Collins: Okay. A lot of people ate late. A lot of people ate late. I’m sure if we looked like the order rates of, of, of pizza restaurants, I, I’m not worried about the timing.

You and I, I know our bedtime is at eight 30.

Malcolm Collins: That’s

Simone Collins: not everyone’s bedtime.

Malcolm Collins: So what I take away from all of this is it, it not a connection to anything like the, the ping pong and all of that nonsense. Mm-hmm. Right. Actually, I’ll even take that out. The. The establishment

Simone Collins: and the asteroid flatbread with tomato sauce on it.

Venue?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. The, it, nothing, nothing about that particular part of said conspiracy, but the wider idea that pizza is used in some elite context whiz, this other meaning I think is pretty much hard confirmed at this point. Mm-hmm. And now that this is confirmed, do we need to look at past instances whi new [00:52:00] glasses?

I think so, but I think at the same time it’s important to not get stupid about this stuff. Mm-hmm. We still don’t have really good evidence. People were tortured. We don’t have evidence of cannibalism, we don’t have evidence of babies, we don’t have evidence of a lot of them, even, even the Prince Andrew, we, we.

We know he was involved. We know that there’s a weird picture of him over a girl, which is like compromising, but not even that sexual like she,

Simone Collins: well, and I think a lot of it, it just, it gets, it gets so overblown. Like we’re not, we’re not harvesting adrenaline from people, but we, I mean, one, like there’s a party on a college campus, people are sleeping together.

It gets a little outta hand sometimes. You know, people break some furniture. Of course that’s gonna happen, you know, at any party that, that runs late, gets raucous, you know, has people getting all riled up. So stuff’s gonna happen. You know, you get people together and they’re celebrating, people are gonna end up sleeping together.

Like it just happened. So, of course, of course that happened. [00:53:00] It’s no surprise. And, and, and also it’s really, really well documented and well known, completely independent of Epstein. That, that there are, that wherever you find rich people, you are going to find attractive young women who will just show up.

They are happy to go to a club or a yacht or a fancy hotel or fancy venue and have things be paid for and to be around wealthy and famous people, even for zero compensation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And that just happens. So yes, I mean it’s, it’s like, well where, where there is, you know, stagnant water you’re gonna find bacteria growing where there are wealthy people hanging out in leisure time, you’re going to find.

Young, sexually available women. Like I, I just, you know, so some of this, it’s obvious. Of course, we don’t have to deny that, and this is now just confirming more of it.

Malcolm Collins: And I, I, I don’t think it helps us to overreach, right? Yeah. Like, I would love it if Zohan OMI [00:54:00] was actually tied up with Epstein That would make my effing day.

But

Simone Collins: he, yeah, I, but I, you know, I, it, it seems very, I would be honestly surprised if it didn’t turn out that he’s just in, in a monogamous, really relationship with his hot artsy wife, because she’s

Malcolm Collins: cool. I, I would be surprised about that.

Simone Collins: Oh, you think they’re poly?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, at least he lives in New York’s

Simone Collins: time for that.

He seems

Malcolm Collins: actually busy, Simone. Literally in, in Manhattan. The chance if you are a wealthy couple that you are monogamous is, I’d say one in four.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If you, but no, he’s also very busy. If you’re poly, it’s because you’re literally not investing in your career.

Malcolm Collins: Not if you are high enough power to basically command sex from people.

You’re, you are thinking that he’s like

Simone Collins: four on No, but the stakes are high in, in progressive circles especially. You can’t Oh, I guess you’re right. Yeah. Like the, the risk to him is both too high. Plus I, again, do not think he has the time for it, so, no, I, I think of, of anyone that you’ve [00:55:00] discussed today, mom Donni is the most likely to be in a monogamous straight relationship.

Malcolm Collins: No, he is Muslim. You know, they do, they do like their multiple wives. It’s

Simone Collins: not even like, yeah. But again, just from a, as a progressive, he, he, he basically can’t sleep with other women outside his marriage unless he’s super, super open about being poly without someone being like, and then he slept with me, like just the, the, the.

The points you get.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: But the, for essentially attacking him by consensually engaging relationship.

Malcolm Collins: The point I’m making here is we don’t have good evidence on that.

Simone Collins: No. We,

Malcolm Collins: we don’t have good evidence on Elon. We don’t have good evidence in, in fact, I, I just with my personal experiences, I would say with almost certainty and how hard he fought to get the files released, that there Elon did not go to those parties.

Simone Collins: But no one’s, no one’s saying he did, are

Malcolm Collins: they? No. A lot of people are saying he did. He says in one of the emails, what day [00:56:00] is the wildest party going to be on the island? A lot of people take that as confirmation that he showed up on that day. But he has been so proud about outwitting Epstein in his mind.

Like why would he have that pride if he didn’t outwit Epstein? Why would he have, yeah. Fought for this. If there was something genuinely compromising on him, he might forget that he had said, oh, I’ll show up one time. He wouldn’t forget if he actually showed up at one of these parties.

Simone Collins: Well, I think it’s also important to remember that if, if you like a good party, you’re probably gonna be fairly agnostic about like, whose parties you’re interested in showing up to.

One of the first things that Elon Musk did, again, just like looking at his, his biographies that I’ve read, when he was, the first time he had wealth was start throwing insane parties. He, he is a connoisseur of insane parties. Parties. He throw good

Malcolm Collins: parties. Yeah.

Simone Collins: He, he literally like almost killed himself, like doing like sumo wrestler fighting at one of his parties.

I mean, he

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, he does, he does. Great [00:57:00] parties. Yeah. Yeah. But the, outside of, of, of that also nothing new, really bad on Trump except for random accusations that like unconfirmed. The, the one person who just absolutely torpedoed by this, who hadn’t been torpedoed before. Bill Gates.

Simone Collins: Bill Gates, rest in peace, reputation,

Malcolm Collins: rest in peace.

Bill Gates, you have your reputation and history. You should have sided with the bad guys if you had just played the villain like us. And you know, who else

Simone Collins: wants you should have just stopped up on antibiotics and like, I don’t know, giving your wife.

Malcolm Collins: Apple. Elon plays a villain to an extent as well, but he, he likes positive press coverage more than, than we do.

Simone Collins: I, because he’s, he’s pressured so much by his companies.

Malcolm Collins: You know, yesterday the New York Times did another piece featuring us. And I had given her so many quotes she could use to make us look bad. Like we don’t want to drag progressive women to Mar-a-Lago breeding pits. Those are the exact type of women we’re glad won’t exist in the future.

And I was like, of course she’s gonna use that. No, she uses a bunch [00:58:00] of benign quotes. You know, you can’t control when they’re gonna make you look like a, a villain, right? But I really want to, I wanna get Mar-a-Lago breeding pits in the New York Times. That’s one of my goals for 2026.

Simone Collins: Thanks, son. Your,

Malcolm Collins: you guys can help me.

Your

Simone Collins: vision board.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, my vision board. I want New York Times to title an article. Women Protist Leader, women Drag to Mar-a-Lago breeding pits. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Love you EF Simone. This was frustrating for me to research because I expected a lot more salacious than I actually got. But I mean, not that the Bill Gates thing wasn’t great, it’s just everybody found that immediately. And I think it opens up some old questions. I think that’s the biggest takeaway from this.

But yeah,

Simone Collins: people be gross. Surprise,

Malcolm Collins: surprise. And it makes me grateful that I don’t have these skeletons in my closet.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is just like, I don’t, yeah. I’m, I’m lucky that I have such an aversion [00:59:00] to like, women with high body counts or like incompetent women that like I need to respect a woman to find her attractive.

Which,

Simone Collins: oh, isn’t there some kind of like really progressive word for that?

Malcolm Collins: I dunno. DMI sexual or something?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Are you, oh God. Are you dummy? Sexual gross?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I don’t think so. ‘cause it’s not my like, default. It’s just like, if it’s, if it’s a real person, I, I don’t know. It’s like I, I don’t want to stick it in a trash can.

Like, you know, I, I, I, I see little difference.

Simone Collins: There are lots of

Malcolm Collins: incredible people to get in, like a used nappy. Like

Simone Collins: there are lots of incredible high body count people who just happen to enjoy sex. It’s just you have, you have

Malcolm Collins: a Would I sleep with him? No. Like if gay people are like, why, why does Simone not mind Malcolm being alone and like, such good friends with ala and it’s like, she knows I wouldn’t do that.

It’s like not my thing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. [01:00:00] Yeah. It’s just, it’s one of those things, like some people are just really. Turned off by like big boobs. Some people are really turned off by small boobs. Mouth was just really turned off by like body counts. It’s not a judgment on those people,

Malcolm Collins: but it protects me from this nonsense.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Interesting conversation. Do you have any final thoughts on this?

Any, any change in the way you see the world after this?

Simone Collins: You know, I think what bothers me the most about this, especially when the conversation turns to things like child sacrifice and actual non-consensual relations, slavery, et cetera, trying to move around these words, these are rampant and actual and very real problems in the world that I would really like to see end. I mean, just, just normal. Not just women enslaved, but men enslaved too. You know, forced into years of service on shrimping ships. You know, like the, well, I mean, horrible work where they’ll just die cognize.

Slavery

Malcolm Collins: are common across Africa.

Simone Collins: Exactly. Not just Africa [01:01:00] either. Like people are being, children are being killed, children are being enslaved. Women and men are being enslaved. Oh, but we’re not trying to address that. No, no, no, no. We’re just talking about like the 15 people who got pulled into, and also like, thi this is all, you know, the, there, this stuff is happening and we can probably do stuff about it, but we’re not because we’re too busy talking about this thing that happened in the past that’s probably not even happening anymore among these elite people.

And that we, we, people are buying the shrimp. That is being cut by slaves. You know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I hear what you’re saying. But I also think that the people who participate in this sort of debauch stuff shouldn’t be running society. And I don’t mind if more of it gets aired out. I think that

Simone Collins: No, I mean, yeah, it, it, it, no, I don’t care who is, is perpetrating the crime.

It’s super not okay. But also like when, when it comes to the stuff in here that I don’t actually think is happening, like be [01:02:00] children being killed, that does bother me because children are being killed and.

Malcolm Collins: By the way, final point on this before we close out.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I still think that we have very hard evidence that Epstein was an intelligence asset.

He was literally called an asset by people in intelligence. In, in, in one of the, like,

Simone Collins: I think he played all sides. I think he just was recorded. He, he couldn’t come across an opportunity that he wouldn’t exploit. He couldn’t help himself.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: He was like a savant for it. Like, he was swindling it using double timing and feeding information to absolutely everyone.

He was incredibly like genius level, good at it. And that was his like special interest. That’s it. That was what he did. So you

Malcolm Collins: what I think you’re downplaying the Epstein thing like. People like Bill Gates should still face accountability and we know they won’t, right? Like we’re, we’re in this position in society now where we know that the only legacy, the only accountability he will face [01:03:00] is to his legacy and public perception.

And it is also really gross to me that completely unconfirmed and that,

Simone Collins: well, what, what is illegal that he did? If, if everything is true, right? What,

Malcolm Collins: what? Nothing that we have confirmation of, but I think an investigation should happen. Like, I, I, I think that we now

Simone Collins: have, well, okay, so, so, out of one side of your mouth, you criticize the fact that BDSM content is illegal in the uk and then off the other side of your mouth, you’re like, oh, well we should investigate Bill Gates for allegedly, potentially, maybe.

Malcolm Collins: Well, we know is that he had real connections to Epstein and was doing stuff at Epstein parties, right. Given everything else we know about these parties, that to me seems like enough evidence to be like, we should be doing more research into this. And I think it’s really unfair what I’ve seen in the public commentary to group something where now we have more smoking gun like Bill Gates with completely non-smoking guns like Zhan, [01:04:00] Ani, and Elon and Trump.

Simone Collins: Ah hmm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it, it, it is frustrating that at, at the very least the argument that I’ve seen a lot of people like. Aspen Gold make is we need these files released because I want to see these wealthy people be held accountable and now files are being released

Malcolm Collins: and they

Simone Collins: won’t be able to, and no one’s being held accountable.

And that is, is almost worse than the files not being released.

Malcolm Collins: And that, yeah, it just shows what everybody knew that our society’s controlled by a bunch of, but,

The major leaks that we dropped. There was some new stuff on Bill Clinton, but everybody knows he’s a Dirtbag. There was, . Howard Lutnick stuff, but who cares? Commerce Secretary Peter Mendelson, the ex UK ambassador. This is the other person who the torture video could have been about other than Epstein.

, He, , left the Labor Party after this. , He wasn’t by the way expelled, which is surprising, but [01:05:00] everybody knows that every progressive in the UK is a child rapist after the BBC stuff. They just, that’s normal. That’s been normal in the uk is being evil leftists. , I don’t not even know how people in the UK lived with themselves.

, Marette Merrit, , this is the Norway Crown Princess. Nobody cares. It’s a hereditary position with no real power. , But yeah, those, they’re the other big ones.

Malcolm Collins: but , the second thing here is I want, when you’re reading these files and you’re like, random, nobody accuses Epstein of X after Epstein is famous again, remember that we are looking at these accusations from the perspective of people who are accused of practicing dark magic on the number one podcast in the world, right?

Like, we know what it’s like to be in the public spotlight. Random people will make stuff up about you. These accusations do not really matter unless they’re coming from somebody who would have something to lose by making up these accusations about you. [01:06:00] Anyway, levy did SM. I

Simone Collins: love you too.

Malcolm Collins: Or, or your own texts, which that’s where the e the, the, the Bill Gates ones become credible.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Un Unless, I don’t know how long the email chain goes, if the, there’s an immediate response from him who are always like, I don’t know who you’re talking about. And it’s really clear they could try to blackmail me with this email chain. Like, what on earth are you doing? I mean, ‘cause, so I’m just saying, you know, you never know,

Malcolm Collins: but.

Simone Collins: So anyway,

Malcolm Collins: okay. I, I love you to DeSimone. You’re amazing. And tonight pizza, cheese, pizza uh, one of the little brown ones. If you could get those for me. You know, we

uh,

Simone Collins: hate you.

Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Oh.

Simone Collins: Wait, wait, Mr. Your dinosaur friend. Little green man.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway how were people in the comments? The video completely bombed. [01:07:00]

Simone Collins: I’m sorry about that. I didn’t get to the comments yet today.

Malcolm Collins: No, it’s okay. You were really busy. You were handling infants with medical issues

Simone Collins: and homeschooling boys and groceries and chickens and emails and investor requests. And I did the AI influencer outreach too.

Again, some people already got back.

Malcolm Collins: You’re intense, Simone. I really,

Simone Collins: we just have to, we have to triage, right. And

Malcolm Collins: doing

Simone Collins: the right stuff.

Malcolm Collins: You gotta move our fab forward. ‘cause that’s most likely to be a source of income. Anyway, I will get started.

[01:08:00] [01:09:00]

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Dive into the fascinating world of “peacocking” with Malcolm and Simone Collins on this episode of Based Camp! From evolutionary biology to modern dating signals, we explore how men and women use costly displays—like flashy cars, makeup, or even leg-lengthening surgery—to attract partners. Discover why choosing a spouse based on looks is a hidden commitment, the history of male fashion from codpieces to high heels, and why both sexes peacock in unique ways today. We break down honest vs. dishonest signaling, why males are becoming more selective in long-term relationships, and real-world examples from seahorses to Genghis Khan. If you’re into red pill insights, cultural trends, or just want to understand the hidden dynamics of attraction, this is a must-watch!

Episode Notes

* Both men and women who choose spouses based on looks are both telling on themselves and implicitly committing to something without realizing it

* Basically, when you’re being choosy about partners, it’s because you implicitly understand (and may be signalling) that you’ll do most of the work and/or take on most of the risk

* To understand why this is the case, we need to look to peacocking and WHY animals (plus humans) do it

* We also need to understand how peacocking has evolved in the face of modernity and how we may need to disregard certain instincts because they were evolved for an old game and these days, many of the rules are TOTALLY different

Why Peacock?

Peacocking is required when the target market is selective (it’s obvious and universal—products only need branding and marketing in competitive markets with choices).

Female peacocking is necessary only when men get sexually selective.

There are three reasons why males get sexually selective:

* Males invest heavily in parental care (time, energy, or risk), so they can only mate with a limited number of females.

* For example, male seahorses, which carry and nourish the eggs in a brood pouch (a form of male pregnancy), are notably choosy about mates.

* Married fathers’ childcare time rose from about 2.6 hours per week in 1965 to about 7.2 hours per week in 2011 and 7.8-8 hours/week in 2020/2021 (with married fathers around 8 hours and college‑educated fathers about 10 hours per week.)

* In case comparison is desired: Married mothers’ time went from about 10.6 hours per week in 1965 to roughly 14.3 hours per week in 2011, and around 13.5–14 hours remains a standard estimate in the 2000s.

* There is large variation in female quality (for example, in fecundity, size, or health), making some females much more valuable mates than others.

* Male seahorses preferentially select larger females, as these tend to produce more or higher-quality eggs, leading to better offspring survival. Males have been observed rejecting smaller or less suitable females by breaking off courtship dances or swimming away, even when the females are receptive. This selectivity stems from the males’ limited brood pouch capacity and the high energy investment in pregnancy, making indiscriminate mating costly

* The St. Andrews experience

* The marriage-and-then-kids bait-and-switch

* In many fish and bird species with biparental care (for example, certain cichlid fishes and shorebirds), males court and mate preferentially with larger or more fecund females and may ignore smaller or otherwise low-quality females.

* Will men eventually look for signals of actual COMMITMENT to larger families?

* Mating itself is costly (risk of predation, energy loss, disease, increased risk from male-on-male competition), so mating “indiscriminately” reduces a male’s total lifetime reproductive success.

* Legal risk

* One major form of “predation” in the modern civilized world

* Financial risk

* A major form of energy loss

* Pair bonding?

* In monogamous mammals like prairie voles, males form strong pair bonds and show selective affiliation and aggression toward intruding conspecifics, effectively refusing to mate with other available females once bonded

* Do men pair bond more???

* I recall in red pill forums men expressing some level of disdain for women who just aen’t really capable of love, which implied that men *were*—so is it that men really feel pair bonded to female partners beyond just mercenary calculations?

* And we discussed women potentially being into male-male romance because of pair bonding

The TL:DR here:

* So long as men have choices and are either made vulnerable by partnering with women or involved in childcare, they’ll be selective.

* BUT: So long as women are also subject to these risks and obligations, they’ll also be choosy

* So both sexes peacock, but in different ways depending on trends and the economy

The History of Peacocking

Neither men nor women stopped peacocking; the means of peacocking for each sex just evolved over time

* When you see restrained male dress, it is typically attributed peacocking through cultural signaling, not through a lack of peacocking

* Globally speaking

* Many Asian and African traditions start from a baseline where both genders can be richly dressed, especially in ritual or elite contexts, rather than a strong male/female distinction in ornament.

* Confucian, samurai, colonial, and capitalist influences all tended over time to align male public dress with restraint and practicality, especially where Western business and bureaucratic models were adopted.

* LOOKING JUST AT EUROPE: Before the 1800s, both men and women who had means to peacock did so in very ornate ways:

* Notable examples of male ornamentation:

* The Renaissance & Tudor England (1500s): Think Henry VIII. Men wore massive “codpieces,” heavy furs, and slashed sleeves to show off expensive under-layers. Leg shape was emphasized with tight hose, and jewelry was a masculine staple.

* Note that this is an extreme emphasis on masculinity

* The Baroque & Rococo Periods (1600s–1700s): This was the peak of male ornamentation. Under Louis XIV of France (the “Sun King”), men wore:

* High heels: Red-soled heels were a symbol of aristocratic status.

* Side note:

* for roughly the first 700 years of their existence, high heels were an exclusively masculine piece of gear.

* They weren’t invented for height or aesthetics, but for warfare.

* The high heel was born in Persia (modern-day Iran). It was a functional tool for the Persian cavalry, who were famous for their skills as horse-mounted archers.

* The Purpose: When a soldier stood up in his stirrups to shoot a bow and arrow, the heel “locked” his foot into place, providing the stability needed to aim a deadly shot while galloping.

* The Symbolism: Because horses were expensive to own and maintain, wearing heeled riding boots became an immediate signal that you were a man of wealth and military prowess.

* In 1599, the Persian Shah sent a diplomatic mission to Europe. The high-heeled boots worn by the Persian soldiers sparked a massive fashion craze among European aristocrats.

* Masculinity & Height: European men adopted the heel to look taller and more “virile.”

* Like pro leg lengthening surgery

* Men still totally do this:

* //

* Impracticality as Status: As the trend moved from the battlefield to the ballroom, heels became higher and thinner. This was intentional: a very high heel made it nearly impossible to walk on cobbles or work in fields, proving you were so rich you didn’t have to do either.

* The Red Heel: King Louis XIV of France took this to the extreme. He famously wore 4-inch heels and decreed that only nobility could wear heels colored with expensive red dye (talons rouges).

* Powdered wigs: The bigger and whiter, the better.

* Silk and Lace: Ruffled “cravats” and waistcoats embroidered with silver and gold thread.

* Why?

* Ornate dress signalled wealth

* Around the 1800s men’s fashion turned toward simplistic

* due to:

* The French Revolution and the need for stealth wealth

* Fashion icons like beau brummel

* Industrial capitalism shifting toward a focus on productivity, competence, and utility

* The rise of the enlightenment, which made it was cooler to be rational and useful rather than decorative

* The democratization of textiles (such that fancy textiles no longer signalled insane wealth)

* This turning point was called Great Male Renunciation by John Carl Flügel in 1930 (referring to the shift that occurred in Western Europe, especially Britain and France, around the end of the 18th century and spread through the 19th century)

* Maybe things are changing now

* Looksmaxxing

* Stealth looksmaxxing

* Height surgery (technically leg lenghening surgery) search queries are up

* In the movie The Materialists, one of the male protagonists (who is already wealthy) gets leg lengthening surgery

* It’s sort of a major plot point:

* Costs $75,000-$250,000

* The global market was valued at $4.1-4.18 billion in 2021-2023, projected to reach $8.3-8.6 billion by 2030-2031 at 8.5-8.7% CAGR,

* Male beauty routines in Asia

* Including not just lifters, but makeup

* The Men’s World / Bronze Age Mindset aesthetic of male body builders

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] What people really want to learn how to do is dishonest signaling. But what you wanna point out, which I think is interesting, is when

Simone Collins: we’re gonna go through in the history of peacocking, how as soon as dishonest signaling has been figured out by a group, the honest signalers choose a different signal.

Malcolm Collins: So in humans honest signaling, honest peacocking would be buying a sports car, which is hurting you, right? Mm-hmm. It

Simone Collins: hurts you financially. Yeah. Costly. It’s

Malcolm Collins: lowering your overall fitness, even the overall

Simone Collins: fitness

Malcolm Collins: of your family.

Simone Collins: I mean, the money you spent on the Maserati is money that you didn’t spend on food or housing or anything.

Malcolm Collins: the partner who is the gatekeeper is. Unlikely to attempt to peacock. Mm-hmm. Males, when you are out searching for a long-term partner, very rarely peacock. Even if they are familiar with the concept.

In fact, males, yeah.

Simone Collins: Take heed women. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: When males who have lots of wealth date, specifically for marriage. They [00:01:00] attempt to hide how much wealth they have. Very interesting point. Yeah. Whereas when they date for casual sex, they both peacock and flaunt,

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I’m so excited to be speaking with you today because both men and women who choose spouses based on looks are both telling on themselves and implicitly committed to something without realizing it. And so we should be really thinking about this and talking about it.

Basically, when you’re being choosy about who you partner with, it’s because you implicitly understand and may actually be signaling to other people that you’re gonna do most of the work and or take on significant risk. And I think that that’s underrated in discussion.

Malcolm Collins: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. No, you gotta explain this to me in, in simpler terms so we can get the hook out because I wanna understand this concept that you’re talking about,

Simone Collins: figure, let, let’s say you’re king is con, right?

You don’t really care who you are. Surprise, [00:02:00] sexing, you are just doing it because you’re not put at risk by doing that. I guess STDs weren’t very widespread at that point, and you’re not investing in raising the kids.

Malcolm Collins: Didn’t he literally die having sex with someone? I mean, he, he apparently did put himself at risk.

Simone Collins: It’s just like when, when, when certain what sea turtles or something get stuck having sex underwater and they’re like, oh no, wait, was

Malcolm Collins: that Kahan or was that No, that was who was the one who went into Europe? The, he led the Huns.

Simone Collins: Atilla

Malcolm Collins: at, at

Simone Collins: not having sex. Wow. I mean, again, it’s risky, but No, I mean, in general, right.

That’s, that’s not the case. And

Malcolm Collins: yeah, so the direction, ‘cause I had to work this out of her that she plans to go with. This is a really interesting argument she made to me this morning that I hadn’t heard before.

That when you are. Peacocking is one way to think of it, but in women, this would be something like wearing lots of makeup and acting, you know, really prissy and putting on that, that very gendered act, right? [00:03:00] In an attempt to secure a partner. You are signaling to the partner that you are going to expect them to do the majority of the labor within the relationship.

And a lot of people don’t realize that this is the signal that they’re fundamentally signaling and you can be like. This is crazy. This isn’t true at all, but actually if you think about it for a few seconds, I think it’s something that’s intuitive to most people. When I met Simone, I specifically preferred to date women who did not wear makeup.

I actively looked for a partner who didn’t wear makeup and didn’t put a lot of effort into how they appeared to other people

Simone Collins: who didn’t invest heavily in signaling.

Malcolm Collins: Right, because to me that was a signal that they were dedicating more of their daily effort, especially,

Simone Collins: well, they, they’d signal that they were the selective ones, meaning that they knew that any relationship, they [00:04:00] would bring more value than their partner, and therefore they were the discerning.

And that is a really big tell in a relationship with

Malcolm Collins: someone. Someone and I, I wanna divide two categories here just before people misunderstand. Mm-hmm. I am not talking about the person who doesn’t wear makeup and doesn’t buy ‘cause they’re a slob because they’re a slob or they don’t have their life together.

I’m talking about the person who, as Simone very obviously does and did, has their life completely together, but doesn’t need to signal that to potential romantic

Simone Collins: aggress. We need to, yeah. So. This, and this should be very easy to understand, but it’s actually a really, really important point that you’re making, which is, there’s a very big difference between being a healthy specimen and being fit and peacocking.

In fact, sometimes peacocking makes you less fit. This is why we use peacocks as the, as the example of this behavior. A healthy peacock doesn’t. Need those feathers. Right. A healthy peacock is a robust bird of good size and, and, you know, [00:05:00] good, good plumage. Right. But the, the, the fact that a male peacock has these very cumbersome feathers actually puts it at greater risk.

That is a

Malcolm Collins: fascinating point, and I want to expand it while also defining peacocking, because some of our fans may not be in the bano manosphere space or the red pill space, and then

Simone Collins: we’re talking here Oh, right, because, yeah. Actually this, this term, which is, is. I mean, historically it was,

Malcolm Collins: we have effective altruists who, like this show, Simone, I guess they would know what peacocking is every effective

Simone Collins: alt.

Yeah. But by, by like it wasn’t always a manosphere phrase,

Malcolm Collins: it was a biological phrase. Yeah.

You know, the way eer kowski dresses constantly, that’s, that’s peacocking, right? Like that is, he obviously read like a, a, a book and then decided I’m gonna wear a top hat 24 7 so that I, you know, I have a conversation.

No, but the point that you made here. Look at the way that Jordan Peterson dresses, that’s peacocking, right? Like this is I’m gonna be the guy that everyone notices in the room, right? So, I think that the really important point that you made here that I had never considered before is. In peacocks, the feathers are [00:06:00] evolutionarily, maladaptive, and some species can even go extinct through.

This sort of a famous one is the Irish elk which ended up growing horns so long. It, it killed them. It led to their extinction. They, they couldn’t, I think like their necks would just break all the time.

Simone Collins: But I mean, obviously it, it takes. An immense amount of fitness to just grow horns that big feathers that big, and to survive long enough.

Like if you could literally survive with those feathers, with those horns long enough to reproduce like, wow, your teens are in.

Malcolm Collins: But in evolutionary biology, this is something called. Honest signaling. And, and this is an important concept for because women look for honest signaling in men too, right?

So honest signaling, and this is my background, biology, oh, we’re getting into biology. So we get into stuff that Malcolm actually isn’t making up. So honest signaling means that the signal of fitness bears a cost that is equal to the [00:07:00] reaction that females have. Two or males have in the case that you’re, you’re signaling in that direction to that signal.

So there are some species that will try to cheat, right? They will try to develop like a growl that makes them sound. Bigger and tougher than they are. Mm-hmm. Species that develop cheating mechanisms to use within sexual selection typically lose these mechanisms pretty quickly. Mm-hmm. Because the females that cannot identify them end up breeding with lower quality males and their genes do not end up surviving.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And so women get very good at detecting. Dishonest signaling. So in humans honest signaling, honest peacocking would be buying a sports car, which is hurting you, right? Mm-hmm. It

Simone Collins: hurts you financially. Yeah. Costly. It’s

Malcolm Collins: lowering your overall fitness, even the overall

Simone Collins: fitness

Malcolm Collins: of your family.

Simone Collins: I mean, the money you spent on the Maserati is money that you didn’t spend on food or housing or [00:08:00] anything.

And, and so the fact that you can survive despite having. Blown through all that money for something that does no good to you, shows that you are extra fit because you’ve just taken a significant hit as a result of that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and then there’s, there’s dishonest signaling, which is buying a fake Maserati and females need to be good at determining, is this a.

Honest signaling male, or is this a dishonest signaling? Mm-hmm. But in normal peacocking, you just dress really crazy, right? Like you just dress in a crazy way that’s meant to get a woman’s attention, start conversations, et cetera. But you are actually doing a form of honest signaling when you do that, which is to.

One signal, a degree of personal confidence. Mm-hmm. Not everyone can just go to a club dress ridiculously. No. They don’t have

Simone Collins: the balls for it. Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: I used to like develop peacocking before it came up in the red pill. I just learned that it worked and I liked dressing sort of crazy and, you know, and I did this in like high school and stuff, and.

Two you signal that you are able to be social, like they can see o [00:09:00] often your social status through your friends, through et cetera, despite the social cost of the ridiculous outfit.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So we we’re gonna talk about why. Why some species? Peacock, because peacocking as, as we’ve just discussed, is actually quite risk.

It’s damaging. It’s, it is not good for you to do, right? So why do, why is it sometimes necessary? And then we will look at sort of a history of male and female peacocking because I think there’s this perception that. Women are, are the, the ones who do all the signaling with the makeup and the clothing and, oh, look at me.

Whereas that’s not always been the case. There have been fluctuations and I, I ha I actually argue that, that we are a rare species in which both sexes peacock but in sort of weird lumpy different ways. And I, I, I would love to sort of hear your thoughts on why and how that is. And I also have some.

Just points that you can use to, to, as a sounding board for your own thoughts and analysis. Malcolm,

Malcolm Collins: I I I By the way, I [00:10:00] love that you went into, this is a very, very interesting topic to me, and I think it is rife for theory, theorizing theory, crafting and better understanding human behavior.

Simone Collins: Well, and also the good strategic peacocking is.

So contingent on a variety of factors within your unique society, economy, time, technology et cetera. And so really there is no universal rule. You have to understand. The dynamics and the power of it. And so that’s why I think this is an important episode. Why, why this? Well, I want

Malcolm Collins: you divide this into two categories because I think talking doesn’t do this well, because let’s, let’s, let’s retie it to the biology.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Honest signaling and dishonest signaling. Because if, if you if, if you’re like trying, yeah.

Simone Collins: But everything I’m gonna be discussing is on a signaling. So. Let’s just focus on that.

Malcolm Collins: What people really want to learn how to do is dishonest signaling. But what you wanna point out, which I think is interesting, is when

Simone Collins: we’re gonna go through in the history of peacocking, how as soon as dishonest signaling has been figured out by a group, the [00:11:00] honest signalers choose a different signal.

Malcolm Collins: That’s exactly it. Okay. Continue. I think

Simone Collins: that’s a great phrase. Yes. It almost doesn’t matter be, I mean, unless you, you discover what it is and, and you’re the first in until the bubble bursts essentially, like you can cheat until everyone realizes there’s the cheat code and then it won’t work anymore. So you just have to understand that it’s a limited time opportunity.

But why? Okay. Why do, why do species peacock? Basically, peacocking is required. When the target market is selective, and this is just obvious, like the, the, the only reason why products have brands that are flashy and attractive is because there’s a competitive market with choices. If there were just. Bread, like we had one option bread.

Like there wouldn’t be brands, there wouldn’t be differentiation. And, and there wouldn’t be

Malcolm Collins: a, a reason to show off one brand versus another brand.

Simone Collins: Exactly. Yeah. So female peacocking is necessary only when men get sexually selective and, and vice versa. There are three reasons why males get sexually selective.

The first [00:12:00] is that males. It, it they, they are sexually selective when they invest heavily in parental care. So if there’s time or energy or risk and they can, or they can only meet with a limited number of females, suddenly they are selective, whereas normally. Male species or male members of any species, it’s more spray and prey.

You know, you’re just gonna have sex with anything that moves and just hope for the best ‘cause there’s sort of no risk to you. So it is, it is relatively unusual and when it does happen, suddenly you care about who you’re sticking it in. So, for example, male seahorses who carry and nourish the eggs in a brood.

And, and like they have little brew pouches. They get, like, they look ERs. It’s, I think it’s one of the few, only, maybe the only form male form of pregnancy. They’re very, very choosy about mates and these days I think men have become more choosy in their mates. Because they invest more today in child rearing, like American men at least than they have before.

Married fathers childcare time rose from about [00:13:00] 2.6 hours per week in 1965 to about 7.2 hours per week in 2011, and then 7.8 to eight hours per week in 2020 to 2021. So it’s only going up and that is going to lead to more selectiveness with the partner choice. So the the second reason. Why there’s why I’m a male would be selective is that there’s large variation in female quality.

For example, there may be a lot of variation in the species fecundity among females or size or health which makes some females a lot more valuable than others. So to go back to seal horses. Seal horses, seahorses male seahorses preferentially select larger females because they tend to produce more or higher quality eggs, which I didn’t know.

But the bigger ones are better with eggs. And this leads to obviously better. The horses are like

Malcolm Collins: chubby chasers

Simone Collins: are, are they’re, they’re, they’re the OG chubby chasers. And then they’ve been, they’ve been observed actively rejecting [00:14:00] smaller. Seahorses, just turning them away. So

Malcolm Collins: male female horses, because they have to carry the eggs, will reject females.

Mm-hmm. Because they are the gatekeepers of sexuality in seahorses.

Simone Collins: Exactly. And they’re like, I’m not gonna spend my time on, on some small seahorse for like, just a few eggs. Like this is. I’m going through this. I’m gonna be careful about it.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I, I think that you’re getting to a point here that I think our audience would like de delineated, which is in humans females are the gatekeepers for casual sex, and males are the gatekeepers for long-term relationships and mm-hmm.

We, we, with that being the case, the ways that both parties dress and act when interacting in each of these contexts is going to be different.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. I also think that it, it’s just interesting, just an observation, I don’t know if this is, is, is, is really good as a comparison, but I love looking at old archival footage, be it re colorized or not.

A lot of it’s [00:15:00] resurfacing up because people are using AI to remaster it. It just looks amazing to see what the streets were like in some random city and you know, the early 19 hundreds or what have you. Yeah. What I find to be so notable is that everyone looks so neat and tidy. You know, people look quite.

Healthy on average probably ‘cause a lot of people die. Like if you were sick, you just, you died. Now there is actually quite a lot of variation in female quality among humans, and I think even in recent years this has gotten worse. I remember when you and I went to, what is it called, the spring dip or something at St.

Andrew’s, which is this event where it dawn a lot of people in this, this university in Scotland. Take off, go run

Malcolm Collins: into the ocean, the

Simone Collins: north. Yeah. Take off varying degrees of their clothing and run into the ocean and, and

Malcolm Collins: in, in ear winter or early spring. So, so, and we noticed how much more gross looking and not just in terms of obese, but like morphologically gross looking, the females were, than when I went to [00:16:00] school there.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I was. I, I was like, actually, like would not with most of these people, and yet I’m like an older guy now and,

Simone Collins: and so greater male selectiveness again. So I just, that, that anecdote. I also think there’s

Malcolm Collins: other, I wanna, I wanna delineate a point here that I think is. Guys, remember how you made the point that the, the partner who is the gatekeeper is. Unlikely to attempt to peacock. Mm-hmm. Males, when you are out searching for a long-term partner, very rarely peacock. Even if they are familiar with the concept.

In fact, males, yeah.

Simone Collins: Take heed women. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: When males who have lots of wealth date, they frequently attempt date specifically for marriage. They attempt to hide how much wealth they have. Very interesting point. Yeah. Whereas when they date for casual sex, they both peacock and flaunt, sometimes even wealth, they do not have continue.

Simone Collins: That’s a yeah. And, and that was a, there was a recent like [00:17:00] social media thing that I, I talked with you about on another podcast where men were posting about hiding their wealth on, on initial dates. Asking to go Dutch with the women they were dating to see if they, you know, were hoping just to be taken care of or if they were interested in them for being them.

Yeah, so there’s the other big thing, I think when it comes to fertility and, and basically the, the new version of f Kennedy for women, which is their willingness at all to have kids. But beyond that, also the marriage bait and switch where there’s a lot of. Women who are like, yeah, I’ll have three kids, I’ll have four kids.

And then they have two kids and they’re like, I’m done. I don’t wanna do anymore. And men are who wanna have big families, especially I think are, are very much in a vulnerable position and at risk. And they need to be extremely selective about who they marry. Yeah. ‘cause even if you find a woman. Who wants to have kids.

And we know from emails and, and messages from our fans who are young men looking to get married, who wanna have families. It’s really hard to find a young woman who’s even [00:18:00] willing to think about family at a young age. Yeah. Which, so I mean, like, let alone

Malcolm Collins: Well, and I, and I, and I still fertile age, they, they start to think about family when they hit their thir the mid thirties.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But it’s too late then, you know?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I, this, this isn’t, you know, just a human thing in many fish and bird species with bi parental care when both, both members of a, of a pairing take care of the young males court inmate preferentially with larger or morphic females and, and ignore smaller, otherwise low quality looking ones.

‘cause they’re like, I’m I, if I have to hitch myself to a wagon, I want the wagon that’s gonna produce a lot of kids. And I think men are becoming more selected now because they know they can’t necessarily trust. Every woman, whether or not she physically have the capacity to have kids, to be actually willing to have kids.

So I’m wondering if men will eventually start to look for signals of, of commitment to larger families, like genuine commitment. Well, but yeah. Anyway,

Malcolm Collins: this is, this is fascinating. If you think about how culture has shifted in America, [00:19:00] if you go back to when the purpose of relationships was marriage.

Mm-hmm. You know, let’s say like the 1950s or something like that, men. Peacock or showed off with their outfits less than women did. Yeah. The woman was the one more likely to show off with the way she dressed and acted than the man was.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And that was because the men were the gatekeepers when marriage is the point of a relationship.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Then the, the third reason why a male may be the selective one is, is when mating itself is very costly to them. Like there’s greater risk of predation. Or energy loss or disease or increased risk from male on male competition. You know, like, oh, well if I try to have sex with this gorilla, the alpha male’s gonna kill me.

That kind of thing, you know? Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah. So

Simone Collins: that mating indiscriminately will actually reduce the male’s total lifetime reproduction success. And I am also thinking, oh my God, like this is absolutely the case for men because one, there’s the legal risk. Yeah. This is one [00:20:00] major form of modern predation.

Where, you know, let’s say that you marry young and then you, you think you’re gonna have kids with this woman, but then she divorces you and then it, it costs you a ton of money and a ton of time. Like you’re, then the lifetime number of kids you’re gonna have is absolutely re reduced. So that is huge.

Also, financial risk, that, that’s a major form of energy loss. If we wanna talk about energy loss, you know, peacocks, like you were saying, that, you know, the example of someone getting a really fancy car, that’s just the new form of, of. Energy, you know, it’s, is money. And then I also do feel too, like there, there’s, we, we talked about this in our male on male romance obsession that some women have the ywe obsession, how maybe women are really into male, male romance because men are able to feel some kind of ponting or true love that women just don’t feel experience.

And so part of me wonders too, if men are actually rendered more vulnerable. From marriage than women are, and I think both. [00:21:00] Have seen our fathers be more romantically attached to their wives than our mothers were attached to them.

Malcolm Collins: I, yeah, I think, I think men are generally, especially in long-term marriages, from what I’ve seen, more romantically attached than women are.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: When women are like, oh, I’m so lucky I got a romantic guy. And it’s like, no, most guys are romantic. That is,

Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Just the way that they’re programmed.

Simone Collins: But the flip side of that is vulnerability. And, and that’s the thing that scared me the most about falling in love with you was like, I discovered this whole new way that someone could hurt me.

I mean, I don’t really care if someone hurts me, but if someone hurts you, my God, I can’t, you know, like I, it’s, it’s scary. So I also see that as a, another source of, of, of danger and vulnerability that many men may be instinctually trying to avoid, and therefore they’re being more selective. So again, women have to peacock more because men are like, I don’t know if I wanna commit to you because.

These days, women kind of [00:22:00] screw men over, like, you’re gonna break my heart and I don’t wanna risk that. So basically the, the TLDR with, with the sort of the, the incentives behind peacocking, so long as men of Choices. And are either made more v vulnerable by partnering with women, or they’re more involved in their relationships with women, typically through childcare.

They’re going to be selective. But so long as women are also subject to these same risks and obligations and women are of course, rendered vulnerable by having kids and by getting in relationships, they’ll also be choosy. And so what we have as a world, and I think a rare biological scenario or like species based scenario in which.

Both sex is peacock and then who peacocks more is a product of a broad variety of really interesting social and economic factors. And the way in which the peacocking is done across genders is also really interesting. So I thought we could get into the history a little bit because we were talking about that briefly this morning.

Yeah, and it is fun. But basically ne [00:23:00] neither men nor women have stopped peacocking. It’s, it’s just the means of peacocking for each sex have evolved over time. And when you see restrained male dress, it’s typically attributed to peacocking through cultural signaling, not through a lack of peacocking.

So, globally speaking even if we’re talking, because I’m, I’m gonna mostly focus in on Western. In European examples ‘cause that’s the fashion history I know best. But many Asian and African traditions start from a. Baseline where both genders can be very richly dressed or even sort of based in the same general garment, like a Komodo style garment or a robe style garment.

And then both would be very richly dressed, both both sexes. In ritual or elite context, there wasn’t this very strong distinction in ornament. And then what is really interesting is different cultural trends across these different. Geographical regions or ethnicities led to, for whatever [00:24:00] reason, men specifically, and I wonder if this is because they’re patriarchal societies and men are the ones who are involved in culture and therefore they’re subject more to cultural trends.

I’m just not sure. But it is cultural trends that have led them. To align male public dress more with restraint and practicality, which is really interesting. ‘cause this is not typically what you see, you know, with like, you know, ducks, right? Male ducks are the pretty ducks. Male peacocks are the pretty ones.

Yeah. So specifically in China, it was confusion. Ideology, which led to that streamlined look. In Japan, it was this samurai like sort of aesthetic that led to this more simplified, disciplined look.

Malcolm Collins: Stoicism or

Simone Collins: forms of stoic. Yes. Stoicism. Forms of stoicism. I’m gonna argue, ‘cause I mean Bo Brummel, which I think you mentioned this, who you mentioned this morning, was a major pioneer in the very streamlined look.

It. He didn’t actually have to do that much with that. He, he was, he was not a stoic, he like died a popper from gambling [00:25:00] debts. He is not a stoic guy or like, so someone who, who held back and, and we can talk about that. But in general, it’s that, or at least it’s, it’s societal trends of lead men to.

Peacock in a different way. But there, there’s more to it than just that. But let’s talk about Europe. Before the 18 hundreds, before there was this renunciation of flamboyance, essentially in fashion for men. Because there’s some hilarious examples that I’m sure you’ll be very familiar with, like, of course, famously in, in Tudor, England there was the cod piece, which was a, a, an exclusively male form of you, you could argue peacocking, which was also like.

Directly tied to m male dimorphism, but also sexual prowess. Because a con piece was for those of you unfamiliar with it, a little part that went over your, your as our children call them ies, your dongle, your of, of like armor

Malcolm Collins: outfits.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I think, I can’t remember what museum it’s in. It might [00:26:00] be.

It’s, it’s in one of the famous royal, like maybe it’s the Tower of London. You can see the various, costume pieces or you know, like court dress and also armor of King, Henry viii. I think it’s his armor. And what’s really interesting is, is they have pieces of his armor from different periods in his life and as he gets older, he not only gets fatter, but his cod pieces just get larger and larger.

And you see these like erections that just kept like, and like these men are walking around with these massive, basically like massive boners. Metal, metal

Malcolm Collins: erections, like on their armor?

Simone Collins: Well, no, but I mean, this was on their armor, but like, also just in normal everyday wear. They were, they were, and they, you know, they were embroidered, you know, they’re very, they’re very nice, you know, it’s like, like men today wear Rolexes.

Back then they had. Very fancy, of course rich fabrics, but you know, these cloud pieces. So that’s, that’s one example.

Malcolm Collins: This is an example of dishonest signaling, by the way. Very easy to fake.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, but I don’t actually [00:27:00] think, when, I remember when looking at, at the armor when, when you were, I, when you and I were in London and looking at that exhibit, I was like, man, he’s compensating.

Like, ugh. But no, I actually think it had more to just do with exaggerated fashion and, and how fashion kind of iterates and becomes more extreme over time. I don’t think he was actually trying to. In insinuate that, that his dongle had grown that much.

Malcolm Collins: Well, here’s, here’s what I suspect happened in Henry the Gates cards.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Some people started wearing cod pieces that like explicitly looked like members. And then imagine you show up at a party and that’s now normalized, but another guest has one that’s larger than yours.

Simone Collins: Oh God. Yeah. And yours is small and with like what y’all, yeah, I guess, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I gotta get a larger one made, man.

I can’t be the small one at the party. Yeah. Because I’ve explicitly made the reference here, right? Yeah. And I’m, I’m actually pretty sure you don’t want to be the one who accidentally walks in with a larger con piece than King Henry The I

Simone Collins: oh yeah. I’m sure. Yeah. There must have [00:28:00] been whisper networks on like.

What is the size of, of his majesty’s con piece? We must know. But anyway, like there, there were all, it got much more interesting in terms of uniquely male styles that were. They were flourishes that were very visually distinct in the baroque and Rococo periods in Europe. This was the era of the Sun King.

This was, it was just so fun. It was so flamboyant and men were so pretty. And we had, for example high Heels, the famous red sold shoes. That were worn in the French court which, which now have, you know, been sort of, well, now the Pope wears them, right? Oh, does he? Well, did you know though that, that actually for roughly two Pope ago, the first 700 years of high heel choose experience, they were only for men.

And do you know why?

Malcolm Collins: Why? Oh,

Simone Collins: think about cowboys back writing. Mean, think about cowboy. Yes, exactly. Yeah. They, they were, they were for warfare. And this was specifically the, it, it [00:29:00] came from Persia, modern day Iran. Rest in peace. It was, it was a functional tool for the Persian cavalry who are famous for their skills as horse mounted archers.

But what do you have to do as a horse mounted archer? You have to both ride and not have your hands on the horse. So you need feet that can really securely sit in stirrups as you’re riding. That means you’re not just sitting in stir. You need to have your, the ability to stand in stirrups with a lot of control.

Mm-hmm. And that is where that the heel allows your foot to lock in to the stirrups. And. When there was, I think there was oh yeah. In, in 1599 the Persian Shaw sent a diplomatic mission to Europe in the high heeled boots that were worn by the Persian soldiers just caused this massive fashion craze.

Like, all these are so cool, but why? Why, obviously. They, they were associated with these badass warriors. So one, it was just very masculine mm-hmm. To wear [00:30:00] heels. But two, you got the height. That’s a really big thing. In fact, I’m gonna s you have to look at these. There’s this whole thing in China where young men wear.

Risers on their

Malcolm Collins: Really

Simone Collins: Oh, that, watch these videos.

Speaker: Don’t trust the height of Chinese men, uh, because most of them use special tricks to make themselves look taller. They use super shoes that can add 20 centimeters to their height because in China, short men will difficulty to getting a girlfriend.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And they can make you significantly taller. And they’re actually, the, the shoes that these men are, are designed quite well to obscure just how thick they are. And there’s this really funny short that shows men waiting in line.

For a rollercoaster or some kind of ride that has a height requirement and sadly the ride operators have have grown wise to the fact that risers are endemic. And tragically you have these teenage boys who are asked to remove their [00:31:00] shoes. To get on the ride to, to measure. To measure this.

Speaker 2: Many Chinese are self-conscious about their height and need high shoes to enter the attraction, but at the entrance, they are asked to take off their shoes. As soon as they do, it turns out that their height is significantly reduced because of this complex in China. Even teenagers often wear platform sneakers to look taller, but these guys couldn’t hide their real height, and now that everyone could see that they weren’t as tall as they seemed, they were embarrassed.

Malcolm Collins: I used to wear

new rock boots as a kid.

Yeah. And they made me so effing tall compared to other guys.

Simone Collins: I, and I thought it made you feel good. It made,

Malcolm Collins: they’re these giant goth boots. Right. Oh, I loved it. I love, they were my go-to footwear for the longest time.

Simone Collins: Well, it’s so embarrassing for these boys who are going on the rollercoaster in China is.

They’re, you know, with their girlfriends who are laughing their butts off as they take off their shoes and like, lo and behold, they’re like a foot shorter. They’re like

Malcolm Collins: little, this is like asking a girl before she gets on a ride, take out your stuffing, like, you know.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Take off [00:32:00] your cut. Yeah. Take out your cutlets, take out your cuts.

Like

Malcolm Collins: see a real, how embarrassing. And it’s funny that we are talking about all of this while we’re redesigning my outfit. I just, I heard back from the Etsy seller about the, because I’ve decided that I should dress in more medieval inspired outfits the same way Simone does. Yeah. Because it looks weird that only she’s doing it now.

And we’ve pointed out in one of the videos that like, it actually, while a lot of cultures only have women dress in a unique fashion, it’s better when they both do like an orthodox Jewish culture.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So we should make up like a unique, so what do, what do you think of this vest, Simone? It is this, they, they said that they

could do it in this, this red color, or is that not right enough?

Simone Collins: That’s great. I like it. No, I like it. That’s like, it’s a deep burgundy. It’s good. It’s similar to my stays that I’m wearing. It’s, it’s all more wine. Yeah. They match

Malcolm Collins: really well. The two

Simone Collins: outfit. Yeah. But yeah, it’s it’s good. In fact, actually, can you see the the tearing on this? Oh,

Malcolm Collins: no, not at all.

Simone Collins: Okay. Well this is, I’m literally wearing this, these stays to shreds, and this is actually part of a larger historical fashion misnomer. A lot of people, when they go to costume institute, [00:33:00] institutes and museums and they see historical outfits, they think that people in the past were super, super small and yeah, they were a little bit shorter.

But there are tons of historical examples of men who are six plus feet. You know, like people weren’t that much tinier. There was some malnutrition.

The reason why people often misattribute historical people to being very small is because the few surviving clothes that existed belonged to children because the children grew out of them before they could be worn to shred.

And so the, these beautifully pre preserved costumes and court dress and everything that people have were children’s clothes. And so people see them and they’re like, this looks like a child. Well, that’s ‘cause it is because it was a, it was a child’s dress. It was a little, a little boy’s outfit, you know, and they don’t realize that they, they think it belonged to an adult.

Because, you know, they’re very nice or whatever. And then I think the people were small and like I’m realizing like with clothes like these, they, they do, you do just wear them to shreds ‘cause they’re good. You wear them every day. And when you wear them, like people historically wore clothes like [00:34:00] that, they would just, even, like, even if you didn’t wear the same style of a dress, you would reuse the fabric.

And so the fabric is, is being worn to shreds and being passed down. Like first the lady at the house would wear it. And once she couldn’t reuse the fabric enough. Like it stopped looking good. She’d pass it down to a servant and then the servant wouldn’t wear different like threads. And then someone below that.

And that’s why we don’t have that many historical adults outfits anymore. ‘cause it was just devastated anyway. Also just the impracticality of heels was something that both for men and women eventually became very very useful as a costly signal, right? Like if, if you can afford to walk around with heels, because the heels evolved fashion wise to become, to have much finer points, there’s no way you could walk around on cobblestone streets or in muddy streets or on lawns with them.

So it just meant that you could afford to not walk anywhere. And then eventually the Red Heel of King Louis XIV was one subject to su sanctuary laws. So literally you couldn’t wear that. Type of shoe unless you were a fancy person. So it was a really [00:35:00] big deal in that sense. There were also powdered Greg wigs which were, were worn both by men and women, but men wore them too.

Silk and lace and all the ruffled cravats and stuff that was just very, very, very expensive to make. And men would wear it because it would show that they had wil. It, it was just a way to signal wealth, which even by that point in history became of course a big proxy for fitness. If you could afford to feed your family or give them shelter, if you had the money to do all that, your kids are more likely to survive and you probably were going to have more on average.

So around the 18 hundreds in Europe is when men’s fashion turned towards simplistic. Then it wasn’t just because Bo Brummel, this man who lived in England, who was friends with Prince region and therefore very socially influential until he fell out of favor, was so. Famous and, and influential as a fashion icon because he was really the one who popularized the fashion That has now evolved into the modern men’s suit.

Things went away from these frilly fancy late 17 hundreds costumes, which really much more resembled women’s [00:36:00] dresses. Just there were slightly, you know, male ified to the modern suit, the precursor to the modern suit. It wasn’t just him. It was also the French Revolution, which really was one of the, the an early driver to stealth wealth.

All, all these, these fa like nobles and stuff were getting killed, and suddenly it wasn’t so cool to flaunt your wealth. You were like getting a little nervous just subconsciously of signaling your wealth to peasants, and you’re like, you know what? Like, I’m gonna pare this down. Maybe I don’t wanna make them so mad because I thought I could just do this and make everyone jealous and nothing would happen.

And I guess maybe, maybe that’s not how it works anymore, so let’s just be a little more careful. So that was a genuine factor. Another big factor was just industrial capitalism shifting, and men, especially in this focus, more toward actual like productivity and competence and utility, suddenly we were able to do things at scale.

There’s this whole new world of productivity that’s opened up by technology and automation and [00:37:00] industrialization. There’s also the rise of the enlightenment, which really made it. Cooler to be rational and useful rather than decorative. Yeah. And then were the ones involved in that primarily. And so they also got caught up in that.

And then there was, furthermore, and this is very important, back to your point of false signals, the democratization by the industrial revolution largely of textiles, such that fancy textiles just weren’t the expensive thing they used to be. Mm-hmm. And so you, you didn’t really, you know, a rich brocade, it wasn’t the same anymore.

Lace could be more automatically made. So we didn’t need to wear the frilly lace stuff, and we didn’t need to wear all this. No. Like suddenly it was. And you had to sig you had to find new ways to signal wealth and, and a bunch of poor people were now wearing the fancy looking stuff. So you don’t wanna wear that ‘cause that’s poor person stuff.

No. And so that, that was a big thing. Be bramwell really actually didn’t very much represent this what was the word? Like, oh, stoic approach. Well, it was a very streamlined [00:38:00] look. Literally, he would have people watch him get dressed regularly. And it would take him like two hours of multiple hours, maybe more than two hours, just to freaking get dressed.

And he would just fuss with his cravat and it was impossible to perfectly tie your cravat and all these things. So, no, it really wasn’t, it wasn’t a disciplined. Efficient man’s way of getting dressed. He was very much a dandy, even though he didn’t dress like dandy and, and and macaronis as, as they were known in various periods.

So they basically, like he, he followed this period in which there were, well, like, he was a dandy, I guess, in which the, the, the fancy fashion men dressed really insanely, like very over the top. In, in terms of their ornamentation, and that’s where the song Yankee Doodle comes from, which is kind of making fun of the concept of the Dandy Yankee.

Went two town, put a feather in his cap and called it macaroni. They’re just making fun of this man who’s like.

Malcolm Collins: The [00:39:00] style of macaroni, which

Simone Collins: is a style

Malcolm Collins: of the period that was very effeminate and very like over the top.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But it’s, it’s just quaint that a man would think that he could just put a feather in his cap.

And, but, but basically the idea was anything slightly over the top was being macaroni. So yeah. So the thing is, I actually feel like maybe things are changing now in terms of men trying to signal through their utility and logic because there are several male trends focused around. Costly signals that are, are, are notable and very noticeable, and they’re doing this more so than I, I think women are at this point.

We’ve sort of gone past sort of peak women insanity in terms of investing in looks. The fillers are over, the BBLs are over. There’s, there’s less signaling, and now we’re seeing more. At least in terms of media coverage and social media trending stuff that, that’s in, in favor of men. So one we have looks maxing.

I mean, you talk about like cutlets, you know, like women taking fillers out of [00:40:00] their bras. Yes. We have clavicular, who’s probably right now the public face of looks maxing online, famously slapping those very same cutlets that women use in their bras on his shoulders to give that more muscular look.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, interesting.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So we have, yeah, and one clavicular is most famous. I mean, among other things like just literally using meth to like. Focus or something like extreme dieting, a lot of cosmetic procedures but also most famously just for hammering his face, just hammering his face. Because why not to, to do that?

And, and, and ironically, it’s so funny, he just ends up looking a lot like, and he, I think he looks pretty good. He, he looks weirdly like a family member of Malcolm’s. But then there’s not just this, it, it’s uncanny. There’s not

Malcolm Collins: just this, you know, we, we, we do have the similar morphologies.

Yeah.

Which is funny ‘cause she means like if you go around my family, they all sort of look like this. So [00:41:00] there’s this look when I pass somebody, I’m like, are we related?

Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s funny.

Malcolm Collins: I what See if it’s worked for him though.

Simone Collins: No, it worked. No. If you look at before and afters, he looks good now.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, but I mean, like, is he, is he married?

No.

Simone Collins: No, but he’s like a kid. He’s a child. Oh. He’s like 23 years old or something.

Like, he doesn’t know anything. He’s, and also, I mean, like the, I I, I don’t imagine his regimen is really helping him think straight. Yeah. Yeah. He is only

Malcolm Collins: 20 years old. Yeah. So let’s

Simone Collins: see if he, he’s very young. Give him time.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins: That

Simone Collins: is, that

Malcolm Collins: is shockingly young. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, I mean, good for him, you know, in terms of what he’s done so far. And then maybe he’ll,

Malcolm Collins: oh my God, I look at the old pictures of him.

I can see why he may have hit his face with a hammer.

Simone Collins: Right? I mean, listen, I actually, I have a, an immense amount of respect for looks maxers.

So there’s, there’s both like very public. I would say, we will say this, the, the, the public social media influencer artist looks maxor, who’s just very open about it and happy to talk about it. And it’s a game for them. You know, it’s, it’s not, it’s not [00:42:00] dysphoria about the way they look. It’s euphoria and the excitement of knowing that by mulling and, and hammering your face and doing all these different procedures and, and using all these different supplements, you can shape your body.

You can take ownership of your appearance. There’s also the more stealth ones. And one example in this that you can see. Is in, in the height surgery is, is trending upward. I’m gonna send you a book.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. I, I, whenever I see height surgery, I just think of Gatica and I’m like, no, no, no.

Speaker 8: His profile says he is six one, so I can wear lifts. Even with lifts. You’re not that tall,

Speaker 7: Jerome never questioned my commitment again.

Simone Collins: Uhhuh.

Malcolm Collins: Because the height surgery in Gatica where he has to get a few inches at it and you, they’ve gotta break your, your bones to,

Simone Collins: oh, he does that. I forgot that. It’s just such a depressing movie. It’s, it’s just like, and

Malcolm Collins: and he is [00:43:00] obviously, I’ve talked about this in other episodes, he is obviously the villain of the movie, like the main character.

If we had an astronaut who on a, like a multi-billion and I think in the movie Trillion Dollar Mission.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: About their health, their heart health. Yeah. A fake heart meter.

Simone Collins: A crucial mission to space.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. We’d be like, wait, so he puts everyone else on the mission’s life at risk. Over a real heart condition.

Simone Collins: Yeah. He

Malcolm Collins: actually has outta this weird, like, genes aren’t real, even though we know that that’s why he has the heart condition.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But anyway, this, I just sent you the Google trends for the, that that leg lengthening surgery, which is what, oh my

God.

Simone Collins: When people are looking up height surgery. It, it is absolutely trending up.

In fact, in a recent much discussed movie called The Materialists that came out, which is about a New York based female matchmaker one of her two main love interests in the movie himself got. Leg lengthening surgery and was very wealthy. [00:44:00] This cost between 75 and $250,000 is very expensive. You have to be wealthy to do it.

So again, even in that, it’s a costly signal, but then it’s a costly signal to do the signal of looking tall, which is also a false signal, which I think is very interesting. It’s this very confusing kind of, what, what is it? It’s both a a, a false signal and a costly signal. So I guess it balances out. But there’s a scene in the movie, it’s

Malcolm Collins: just a false signal.

I mean, it’s costly in that it costs a lot of money.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But if you can afford to do it, doesn’t that kind of balance out?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I guess. And, and be bedridden for the period and blah, blah blah.

Simone Collins: But yeah, if you can afford to do it, then the clearly you some advantage. Yeah. You’re a privileged person.

Either

Malcolm Collins: the shoe inserts, man, like, come on.

Simone Collins: Well, but what about when you are not on a roller

Malcolm Collins: coaster’s grow? It

Simone Collins: doesn’t matter when you, you’re not wearing any clothes. We need take someone home.

Malcolm Collins: Nobody notices then.

Simone Collins: I’m just saying the global market was valued of, of life lengthening surgery valued at one 4.1 to 4.18 billion from 21 to 23.[00:45:00]

And then it’s projected to reach 8.3 to 8.6 billion by the 2030s. Like, or 20 30, 20 31. So this is a growing, like if you wanna invest in a surgical center. Jesus. Invest in this. Jesus. Very painful, very, yeah. Excruciating recovery process. This is this body

Malcolm Collins: dysmorphia right here. Come on

Simone Collins: guys. Well, yeah, or I mean, I.

There, there are, there, we know people who, who plan on if they, if they can afford to get this procedure. And I, I, I say power to the people. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I guess I can’t understand, right? Like I wasn’t,

Simone Collins: yeah, you’re born sufficiently, like taller than average. So whatever, you know, don’t do, act like you have some privilege, right.

Genetic legacy right then, right? I mean, you, you use Naltrexone to experience a state that I experience every day. I don’t like act like, Ooh, you shouldn’t take naltrexone. Like, no, you should do it because you can be more efficient that way anyway. I, I do think and, and, and there’s this scene in the movie where the, there are [00:46:00] two matchmakers who are.

Yeah, that’s absolutely a worthwhile surgery because women just won’t consider men under a certain height. Like it’s a logical choice to make.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Speaker 3: She’s afraid he is not actually five 11, and I’m like, can we please not worry about a couple inches right now because you’re about to die alone? You know there’s a surgery for that, for dying alone, for getting taller up to six inches. You break your legs and. Extend it with the bone heal itself. That’s a game changer.

Speaker 4: Costs like 200 k six inches can double a man’s value in the market. If you can afford it, it’s definitely worth the investment. What’s the saying? You’re not ugly. You just don’t have money.

And you can get around this when a kid’s growing, if you give it to them at the right time. Human growth hormone.

Simone Collins: And then of course you have to consider that in, in [00:47:00] Asia, a ton of men have pretty elaborate beauty routines, makeup routines, if not cosmetic surgery procedures that are super common.

And then on the other side of it, like you could say that, oh, well this is all very a feat, but then you have to look at the like bronze age mindset slash man’s world. Bodybuilder aesthetic thing that’s going on.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But that, that’s an intersexual signaling Women don’t actually want that.

Simone Collins: No, they don’t.

But it, it, it is still, I feel like the instinct to signal comes from something like a feel that you need to be chosen among a choosy populace. And, and, and I think that it, it’s misguided, but I do think a lot of men that get into bodybuilding think that women are gonna like it. I think that a lot of women who are really into makeup.

Think that it actually attracts men even though they’re, they’re using literally makeup application methods that were pioneered by drag queens. So whatever. But I just, [00:48:00] I, I think it’s very interesting and I think we just have to remember when we engage in these, these acts of signaling that one, this, this is you acknowledging.

That when you’re the choosy one, it’s because you are the one bringing the value to the table. When you’re signaling, you’re trying to attract someone who you’re going to use.

And we should just be aware of that. That’s the dance. And if you are choosing to date someone who is clearly signaling. The tacit understanding between you needs to be that they’re going to use you. If you’re, and this is back to that

Malcolm Collins: point, this is why I, and I mean, I think sane guys understand this.

This is why SANE guys, when they’re looking for wife, they do not date girls who wear lots of makeup. Mm-hmm. They do not date girls who wear expensive clothing. Mm-hmm. Because when I see that, I’m like, oh, this is no, she’s telling me she expects me to buy this stuff for her.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. [00:49:00] Yeah. And, and yeah, that, that, that’s gonna be the expectation.

That the expectation is that you’re gonna be a provider and that she has, you know, a ton of choices. And if you won’t be the provider, she’ll probably leave you. And, and that you are made vulnerable by this choice. And, and, and, and also if you see that you’re at a point in some society or in sub subculture, because this is gonna be different across all societies.

And there, there are various periods about history, and you’ve alluded to this like in the 1950s, where it appears to be that one sex is signaling more than another. You need to be aware of what side of the equation you’re on and the social contract you’re getting into as a result that, oh, if you appear to, to, to, if everyone’s trying to market to you, you need to be a lot more careful about your choices because.

They’re, they’re after something that you have and you’re committing to maybe more than you, you might expect. And, and vice versa. Versa.

Malcolm Collins: Well, but here’s the final point I wanted to make, because guys can be like, well, even with all of this, you know, you say that I, the male am the chooser in the long-term relationship [00:50:00] marketplace.

Mm-hmm. So. Why aren’t I finding options on this marketplace? And the answer is that many modern women, modern audience modern women have decided to not even play in a marketplace where they don’t have a structural advantage. Mm-hmm. And so they don’t even. Enter the long-term relationship marketplace, meaning there’s such a dearth of women within it, at least in terms of, of of getting the type of partner they have come to believe, they think they deserve because of the advantage they’ve had on the sexual marketplace.

Not realizing that all they’ve really done is burn part of their own value on the marriage marketplace. Even engaging in the sexual marketplace.

Simone Collins: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. Well, I love you Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: You are a spectacular wife. That was a really clever episode. I like that. Good.

Simone Collins: Well thanks for helping me with explaining the concepts.

Concepts. ‘cause I just, it’s, it’s, it’s complicated and, and it’s, it’s extra complicated today and with [00:51:00] humans. Because I couldn’t find examples of other species where. Both are engaging in, in costly signaling, in forms of peacocking. Normally it’s just one. It’s just one. And just one more reason why we’re, we’re so boned is human.

I mean,

Malcolm Collins: usually a species, it’s either like monogamous or, you know, sleeps around a lot. You don’t often get bimodal relationship strategies within one species.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Or, or, or, or the females are owned by one male. You know, you’ll, you’ll see those in like champs or something like this, and you can go over cross.

But, but, but we, there’s like multiple relationship and sexual strategies being implemented within humanity at the same time. But one of those strategies which is going to be brought outta the population is purely masturbatory, the one that is downstream of arousal, because these women rarely end up actually.

Conceiving and carrying your child, right? Yeah. So the, the, the whole thing is just masturbation with another person, right? Mm-hmm. And it’s, you know, more moral downsides.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, [00:52:00] you know, I, I think for this younger generation, it’s easier to understand why that’s a bad thing if you frame it as being what it actually is.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that you see, you know, this wider thing that you’re talking about you see for example, in context where people know that the relationship that they are dating for is gated by the males. Like say because it will almost certainly, you know, you are dating for a long-term relationship.

An example of this would be Mormon dating, for example.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, everyone knows the goal’s. Marriage.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The women. Peacock more than the men in those scenarios. They, they spend a lot more time Oh yeah. Dressing up, getting themselves looking nice, everything like that than the males do in those contexts.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And this is why Mormon women look so dressed up. Whereas I was literally searching for somebody who wasn’t doing that. And I suspect a lot of women and men are doing the same. Yeah. But this is because I’m coming from a different cultural context where I value you know, work ethic above all else, and I [00:53:00] didn’t want to see and austerity above all else.

Mm-hmm. So you were literally. Peacocking your austerity to me in the way that you presented yourself. By the way, if we have thoughts on the medieval wear that I should get, I, I’ve already ordered a number of them. I, I think I need to do measurements tonight because I wanna send it to the companies just to make sure we get it right.

Okay.

Simone Collins: I’ll help you. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll get my measuring

Simone Collins: tape out. I used it on sea turtles when I was 13.

Malcolm Collins: So you

Simone Collins: No, I’ll use it on you.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll measure you like a sea turtle.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And so we’ll send them my measurements just to make sure we get it right. And I have my cool medieval wear. And then people can say like, Malcolm, you look ridiculous on stream.

But that’s so many big streamers. Like dress, like clowns and stuff, or like gothy or like, you gotta haves

Simone Collins: on makeup. Yeah. It’s

Malcolm Collins: distinctive.

Simone Collins: We need a thing. We’re tech puritans, so we gotta do

Malcolm Collins: that. Right? I gotta, I gotta have more of a distinctive look than I do. And right now it’s just nerdy lesbian. Right.

And, you know,

Simone Collins: well, you’re my nerdy lesbian. Okay. Would you mind grabbing the kids and then I’ll handle

Malcolm Collins: the, I would mind nothing less. I’m very excited and I love you a [00:54:00] lot, Simone. I love you too. You’re a great partner and a very deep intellectual thinker.

Simone Collins: Yeah, so I love you. All right. Bye bye. Bye bye.

Bye bye. Okay, now I have to find where I put the outline peacock.

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. What are we doing for dinner tonight?

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Because I, I don’t know what we have. I think we’re going through also, I’d be up for Curry tonight if we have some old curry to go through.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I would love to make more curry for you. I don’t have new, I used up all the peppers we have, so it would just be, I can try to find mango curry though, which I think would be fine on its own.

Or I actually, you know what I have, I think I have a bunch of reang. Would you like some Reang or would you like me to try to find a mango curry?

Malcolm Collins: What do I want?

Simone Collins: Let’s see.

Malcolm Collins: Let’s [00:55:00] try re mango. You decide.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: If you do the mango curry, remember to mix in some of the, sandal

Simone Collins: ole

Malcolm Collins: sandal. Ole and a l.

Yeah. Just sandal ole for mango curry.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No, hoisin. You don’t wanna, ‘cause the mango curry has that like rounder warm. You don’t want the, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know how to, I don’t know how to word that, but Yeah. You know what I’m talking about.

Malcolm Collins: What? Hoisin

Simone Collins: got a little bit of a, yeah. That whoop. Yeah. Okay.

All right. Here we go.

This clip needs a little context. The kids decided they were going to try to distract me or lure me using things like teddy bears on strings so that they could run around and steal the chips I was eating.

Speaker 5: And say, Hey, me, a teddy bear stole your credit card.[00:56:00]

Speaker 6: What are you doing? What are you doing?

Are you stealing?

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Yes, I’m stuck. Are not there.

Speaker 6: Get outta here.

Speaker 5: Let’s find distraction.

Speaker 6: Get outta here.

Speaker 5: No,

I to disturb my queen.

Speaker 6: You’s your queen.

Speaker 5: Ti Tors.

Speaker 6: Tors. Are we to

Speaker 5: serve [00:57:00] jets? Ah,

Speaker 6: I don’t t’s a man. What are men? Octavian? Are they queens? No, they’re kings. A king. So Titan is a queen. Torson is a king.

Speaker 5: I made a serve to King. Ah,

please.

Speaker 6: Well, you did ask nicely.

Get outta here. Would

Speaker 5: you,

Speaker 6: do you want me to get feed you to the window? No.

Get outta here. Okay.

Speaker 5: Never, never.

Speaker 6: I think [00:58:00] the audience now knows that you need more bops. You need more bops. Right. You wouldn’t do this if I bopped you more or harder.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: So how hard do you want me to bop you? Um, really hard.

Speaker 5: Yeah, because I was just gonna hide from you.

Speaker 6: Okay. Get it, get out.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this no-holds-barred episode, we dive deep into racial and ethnic dating preferences using real data from OkCupid (the infamous 2009–2014 race & attraction studies), multiracial dater research, and more. We cover in-group biases, why some groups show little same-race preference, the surprising “boost” for certain mixes (like white-Asian), why black women face the toughest odds in online dating, and how media/culture shapes (or fails to shape) what people find attractive.

We break down hierarchies in desirability, reply rates, gender differences (women tend to be “more racist” in preferences), and why white men often top the charts while certain groups get penalized. Expect spicy takes on everything from passport bros to fetishization, media “go woke go broke,” and even our own subjective rankings (teased for a future paid video).

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. As people know, we got really scared after having, you know, videos taken down on this channel and potentially having our YouTube throttled. And so I said, I’m not gonna do anything controversial.

Simone Collins: Never

Malcolm Collins: again. Never again, never again. But at the same time, an interesting question occurred to me.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Which was, if you were going to create like a tear list of the attractiveness of different ethnic groups, that was objective, oh

Simone Collins: God,

Malcolm Collins: what would that look like? So I decided to look into this ‘cause I was like, surely somebody has done this before. And what I was really

Simone Collins: according to doesn’t just every.

Racial or ethnic or religious group look good to themselves? Like, don’t the Amish find Amish people the most attractive, even if it’s like literally they’re, they’re from very similar heritage. You know, just when, when people look similar to you, don’t you, don’t you find them more attractive?

Malcolm Collins: Some groups?

That’s true. Not in all groups. Is that true? So [00:01:00] we see that in some studies. Ba basically we’ll go through a number of studies. A number of studies will show that most groups have a preference for their own ethnicity. But in other studies most of the more honest ones. And we’re only gonna cover the OkCupid one briefly, because I assume that all of our audience is familiar with that study.

Simone Collins: Oh, I’ll cover it thoroughly. I, I can’t really remember. I went through it when it first came out, but OkCupid stopped publishing their research findings pretty early on because they were too spicy. It was too

Malcolm Collins: controversial.

Simone Collins: I people got too mad. Justified reality hurts. What

Malcolm Collins: you will see in those, if I’m remembering correctly, is blacks do not have an ingroup racial preference and prefer people of other ethnicities.

Simone Collins: Oh God, I forgot. Yeah, that was

Malcolm Collins: bad. That is not found in pretty much any of the scientific studies except for I think like one or two.

Speaker 2: Oh s**t, here we go. It’s on. Race, war. Race, war, race, war, race war’s on everybody.

It’s going down. It’s going down.

After editing this video, I [00:02:00] was wrong. It has sounded in more of the studies than I remembered, and I should point out here. I do not mean that they had a preference for other racial groups. I mean, they had a preference for the white racial group.

Speaker 2: Token Forfeit. Whites win. Whites win. Race, war, everybody whites.

Malcolm Collins: And I think the reason Yeah.

Simone Collins: But there’s a big problem with publication bias when people

Malcolm Collins: find Yeah. I would not publish it if my results came out that way. I’d be like, wait.

Oh,

Simone Collins: nor would I, yeah. Because we’re not crazy.

Malcolm Collins: African Americans are racist against African Americans more than other people are racist against African Americans.

Simone Collins: Right. Even based OkCupid stopped publishing this stuff, obviously.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. We can’t, we can’t have that be widely known. Right. So we’ll get into that.

And then what I’m gonna do with you Simone is because I really, you know, don’t wanna do anything offensive, don’t wanna do anything that can get clipped but. You know, at the same time I couldn’t find a good ranking between like Asian groups and between European groups and between

Simone Collins: Oh, like Vietnamese to Chinese to Singaporean, to,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

I wanna, I wanna get [00:03:00] that up. So you and I are,

Simone Collins: oh yeah. I would be really curious, like, do Japanese people think that South Korean people are really beautiful?

Malcolm Collins: No. No. So I wasn’t able to do that, but we will judge it. So we’ll go through faces of different asset groups and rate how relative,

Simone Collins: you know what, because

Malcolm Collins: you relatively attractive they are to each other.

Look at, look at the life. Leave her eyes. Look at the Malcolm. What are you doing?

You don’t like that. You don’t, you don’t love that. I’m gonna be

Simone Collins: okay, let’s go.

Malcolm Collins: Right? All right. Overall hierarchy in dating and desirability. I said, so this is an article Taboo or tabular Rasa Cross Racial Cultural Dating Preferences amongst Chinese, Japanese, and Korean international students at American universities.

Simone Collins: Oh, oh, that’s an interesting way to do it.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So, there was a clear racial hierarchy that [00:04:00] emerged in the student’s preferences for potential dating partners. Okay. And then of course, it argues, I do not know if I would argue this. Okay. That. That racial hierarchy is there because of influence from US media portrayals, cultural capital stereotypes and parental family experiences.

You

Simone Collins: probably would say that, ‘cause it would be the only way for you to be like, I didn’t sit, I just think, I don’t, I don’t even think they’re racist. I just think the media is racist to systemic something. Something. Yeah. I think that’s,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Simone Collins: Understandable. Logical. Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, they don’t wanna say, well, my students are racist.

Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. No, they’re a product of corrupt and bankrupt system. But also, I mean, I think it’s, it’s, it is important to note that capitalism kind of speaks for itself. You know, that, that to a great extent. We, we talked about this briefly with DEI, ification of media that you’ll get this go woke, go broke thing when you stop.

Yeah. Casting super hot. Protagonists [00:05:00] or you start making video game characters like less sexy. The video games don’t do so well that there actually are forms of like, we’ll say male, male, gay romance that do really well. But it’s only when it’s actually more fetishized. Like when women are like, oh, look at them kiss.

Yeah, you,

Malcolm Collins: you put gays in

Simone Collins: stuff

Malcolm Collins: and you make it gay. Nobody watches it. You make

Simone Collins: it. Yeah. But if you have like hot women kissing, like, okay, everyone’s okay with it again,

Malcolm Collins: right? No, no. Yeah. It’s like, it’s like, you, you, and this is the, the funny thing is gays had such an easy marketing thing here. If you wanted to put hot lesbians and stuff, that would’ve been fine.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You

Malcolm Collins: could’ve gotten your agenda and not scared away.

Simone Collins: Your normal audience. There’s such an easy hack. But my larger point here is that I, I wouldn’t even say that media can effectively manipulate people because in the end. People vote with their feet or their, I guess their eyes when it comes to media.

If they don’t like something, they’re not going to [00:06:00] watch it. It’s not going to become influential media. So if you see a certain typecast in media that’s just showing up again and again, and it’s this type of person that’s, because that’s what audiences find broadly attractive. So I don’t think

Malcolm Collins: until, until the wokes get their hands on it because,

Simone Collins: well, yes, as we

Malcolm Collins: pointed out,

Simone Collins: but then it doesn’t perform well, it doesn’t, it doesn’t perform economically well.

We can’t look Track

Malcolm Collins: Academy. Right. So they’re like they could have put hot young lesbians in it. Instead they put fat old lesbians in it.

Simone Collins: Oh, dude.

Malcolm Collins: And that was not what anybody wanted to see. Not even

Simone Collins: the lesbians perhaps. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: To get an idea of, of of, of how much. It’s like they, they literally had a way to sell their agenda.

That, that the audience liked. And they’re like, no. Part of the point is that we make the audience upset. Part of the point is taking away the thing that the audience liked. Mm-hmm. We, we actively want the audience to have a, a bad time watching this. Mm-hmm. And, and that is what art is. That [00:07:00] is what artsy is.

And so then you get Gay Cowboys eating pudding or Star Trek Academy, right. Where literally it’s free on YouTube and it has like after four days of being up it was at like 139,000 views the last time I checked, which means it gets less fu in four days than our channel does on average.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Wait, gay cowboys eating pudding.

That sounds adorable. What is this?

Speaker 2: independent films of those black and white hippie movies, they’re always about gay cowboys eating pudding.

Speaker 3: No, they’re not. Independent films are produced outside the Hollywood system. All the glitz, glamor.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you show me one independent family that isn’t about gay cowboys eating pudding.

Malcolm Collins: Gay Cowboys Eating Pudding is a joke from South Park about what your average like student film is like.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Where it’s like,

Simone Collins: but I think Brokeback Mountain, speaking of gay cowboys did really well, but I think it was, wasn’t it two hot men? Heath Ledger was in it.

He’s hot.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they, they, they, they played it up for women. That’s who that was for gay cowboys eating, that’s the thing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know.

Speaker: The first film showing is called Witness to [00:08:00] Denial and is a sexual exploration piece about two women in love. Oh, my Uncle Jimbo has a ton of those movies in his dresser drawer.

Malcolm Collins: You know, the point of gay cowboys eating pudding as a concept is often art like that wants gayness, right? It wants something traditional, but then it also wants to be painful to watch.

That’s part of the artistic experience.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But that, that, again, is not the media that is going to influence people’s dating choices. But my, my larger choice is, no, it doesn’t work that way. People, influential media becomes influential only because it’s reflection of people’s desires.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Like that’s why the Pathways game Amelia became influential because she was our desires for her wife.

Hey, when I met you, you did not dress di that differently from Amelia. Mm-hmm. You had a long hair. You wore like Oh,

Simone Collins: very manic girlish. Yeah. No, there, there’s definitely a world in which the artsy goth girl becomes a conservative person.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I think that that’s what people are now accepting is that [00:09:00] the young version, and I know this from our fan base mm-hmm.

Our female fan base was mostly feeder kids and artsy goth kids, right? Mm-hmm. They were not preppy girls. Preppy girls became progressives. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because they’re conformist. I, I, I will, I’ll note another thing. ‘cause people might be like, no, absolutely. People’s aesthetic preferences and body preferences change with trends.

They’ll point to the shift from the BL look of a very voluptuous woman with a large.

Malcolm Collins: Never happened. Complete historical

Simone Collins: myth. It did, it, it did somewhat though I’m, I’m gonna argue it did. And, and going to the heroin chic look of now, however, this has to do more with an ancillary form of of what we were talking about this in another episode we did on peacocking of, of, of signaling.

And the reason why we went from BBLs to the heroin cheek look is that these things became the most expensive thing to do over time. So what wealthy people did when BBLs were popular was they could [00:10:00] afford to get. A very, very expensive, like the bbl, LA Brazilian butt lift is a surgery in which they’re taking fat from, say your thighs and inserting it into your butt.

You have to be out of work for a long time. You can only lie in your stomach. Like it’s really, it’s kind of like the, like lengthening surgery for women that has a little bit of a fast rate. I

Malcolm Collins: argue that, oh, you’re talking about the butt lift thing. Okay. So I’m gonna point out that the butt lift thing was actually a completely different phenomenon than what you believe it is.

The, the butt lift thing.

Those make women look more like co-sign. And that is a unique gender dimorphic display. Yeah, the co if people wanna watch our episode on the co-sign, they’re one of the ethnic groups in Africa. The episode that we watch when it goes over, and if you didn’t know this, this episode’s gonna blow your mind.

They genetically speaking, not in terms of when we split off from them, but in terms of SMPs

are more distinct from European populations today than Neanderthals are. And they have different sex displays than other [00:11:00] groups. Yeah,

Simone Collins: but also large. Large glutes, gluteus max, like a large, large buttocks.

Malcolm Collins: They also have like large long labia, for example, like their genitals just

Simone Collins: looked Yeah. I’s trying to do that. What I, what I’m saying is it’s a very gender dimorphic female trait of like having No,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, no. The point I’m making here is that the women who were doing this, mm-hmm. If you look broadly, almost all of them had a black audience.

That is who they were doing it for. That was the fan base they were doing it for. It was for people who were optimizing for a different ethnic look. This is something that you see,

Simone Collins: Well, but now why would the Kardashian family, for example, shift than its family? Who is their

Malcolm Collins: audience?

Simone Collins: Yeah. What are you saying?

Their audience just shifted to white people then because they, they got rid of their big buts. They got rid of all that number one. I, I think they, i it was the rise of o Ozempic that changed this. It is When Thin became cool because thin became a financial flex.

Malcolm Collins: I, I disagree. I think that they are waffling between appealing to their audience and status, and as they [00:12:00] secured more st like, like audience, they no longer need to appeal to it as much.

If you wanna know, I’m not gonna go that far into the, people have never found fat people attractive. Mm-hmm. But if you look at, there have been a number of studies on intercultural. Aesthetic ranking mm-hmm. That I actually went into when I was going over this data. And while people have different preferences for ethnicities mm-hmm.

If your ranking within an ethnicity people across ethnic groups generally do that about equally. So if you have an African ranking English people in a, like a list of 10, they will rank them the same way an English person would. And if you get an English person, you go to Africa and do that.

The only instances historically that we have where genuinely obese people were preferred over non-obese people were when that was a sign explicitly of wealth. And it went away as a preference when wealth was no [00:13:00] longer correlated with being obese in those cultures. So basically, when those societies industrialized that beauty standards disappeared in every single instance, we’re aware of it.

So, no, it never happened. And then you’ll people point to history. They’re like, well, in history you have KO or whatever his name was one painter who painted obese women and had an obese wife, Rubens Rubens. It’s like, no, he was just a chubby chaser. Nobody else during that period was painting like that.

This guy was a fetish artist. And like, people got into his fetish art, right? Like that happens today, right? Like you could point to furry art today and being like, this proves that all men want a cat wife. And it’s like, no, this is just a popular form of

Simone Collins: furry art. All men want. Want a cat girl? Don’t, don’t even my, okay, let’s get back to these Asian college students.

I wanna know. Oh, so lemme lemme guess. South Korean first.

No,

Malcolm Collins: no, we’re not getting to that because that hasn’t been studied in any study. We need to

Simone Collins: go there. Oh, they didn’t, I thought they were looking at what, like

Malcolm Collins: a Asian college students. They

Simone Collins: were, they split

Malcolm Collins: into [00:14:00] white Americans, Asian Americans, African Americans, Latino, east Asians.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay.

Malcolm Collins: So what they showed was white Americans were the most desirable, Asian Americans were the second most desirable.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And, and only slightly below white Americans.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Then African Americans, Latinos, and Southeast Asians were the least desirable. Just

Simone Collins: all, even grouped together.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they were just all, like, nobody wanted to date them outside of their ethnic groups.

However, there was a preference within a group, so it’s 35 out of the 47 students, or 74.5% initially express expressed a preference for dating someone of their own cultural background. Okay. That makes sense. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, et cetera. Yeah. So this is actually a really interesting point here.

Mm-hmm. People will say, you as a white person are racist if you say you have a preference for dating or having sex with, or having in your arousing content, spank bank, white people. Right. But it’s not [00:15:00] even,

Simone Collins: it’s, it’s culturally matched white people

Malcolm Collins: and yet we know that cross-culturally, this is just a true thing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and again, the note that the, the research said culturally matched and note that anecdotally. When I was on OkCupid, I keyword stuffed my profile with internet memes. My photo was of me in stor in film grade storm trooper armor. Like I was trying to find someone who wasn’t a sports fan, who wasn’t a, a FinTech bro.

It, it was for literally like a, a startup nerd.

Malcolm Collins: Well, so they say culturally matched and then they listed a bunch of ethnicities.

Simone Collins: Well, right, but that’s Chinese,

Malcolm Collins: Japanese, Korean, or ethnicities.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But culture and ethnicity often go hand in hand.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay. I’ll buy that.

Malcolm Collins: Continue.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So I think what you’re trying to do is find someone.

With whom there’s less social friction and with whom you don’t have to negotiate a new social contract with everything.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: What It’s very stressful to [00:16:00] date someone who doesn’t share the same tacit understandings of this means that, and that means that. And because you’re just gonna have such a, and people make it work all the time.

We, we are at record levels of people who are having cross-cultural, cross religious, cross ethnic or racial relationships. It is totally doable, but it is more stressful. And the research is pretty robust on that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And here I’ll note that like, the, the, the in group preference, it pretty much, I think anyone has.

With arousal. It is so effing weird that we have normalized one ethnicity isn’t allowed to say that.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: If a black person says, I prefer dating and having sex or getting off to black people, nobody batts an eye. Mm-hmm. If a Hispanic person says that nobody bats an eye if the Southern European person says that nobody bats an eye, but if a white person says that, all of a sudden everybody freaks out.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: I’m sorry, I I have to point that out because I think that a lot of people forget, there’s been this weird mixa ru card game done where [00:17:00] everybody is like weird about like Latin Americans, but they’re like, totally okay with Southern Europeans as an ethnic group. And I’m like,

Simone Collins: they’re the same ethnic group.

Malcolm Collins: It’s literally the same people. These are the descendants of Spaniards and Italians. Like, what are you, what, how, why are they exactly like every other American, but. Latin Americans aren’t. If, if we’re going to divide them, we might as well be honest in how we’re doing the division. But then uhoh, people start noticing patterns and you have to start dividing Catholics and Protestants again, which is a problem.

And so then people ignore that. That’s, that’s the main reason that we pretend that they’re not too ethnic groups. Mm-hmm. And, and they look very different actually, when we get to the pictures of attractiveness you, you see them as being quite different in terms of the average ‘cause we’re gonna go to facial averages.

And I, and I’ll also note here, one thing that I find interesting about myself, and I don’t know, we can get this from the audience as well, but there’s some ethnicities that I find almost [00:18:00] as attractive as white people. When, when I can tell they’re an average ranked attractiveness, same. And there’s other ethnicities where it’s clear to me that I’m applying some sort of negative modifier to would I sleep with them?

Simone Collins: Interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Which also would be,

Simone Collins: have always said on multiple episodes, Japanese plus Irish,

the

Holy

Malcolm Collins: Grail. Yeah, that’s, that’s, yeah. A lot of the white mixes come out really hot. I, I think also I’ll just drop my cards here. I think Indians specifically North Indians can be really hot. Gorgeous.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Interestingly, I think that there’s this myth of the Hot Asian, but like in practice like, like actual Asians I have in, in my life, never actually,

Simone Collins: well we both admitted to ourselves when walking down the streets and sold that we were just bringing down the average attractiveness of the entire 100 foot.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It might be that it’s not culturally or it’s never been culturally worse. Me dating an

Simone Collins: Asian, they’re attractive. You just don’t wanna bang them. Maybe. I don’t know. I, and I, I can’t [00:19:00] really understand ‘cause I, I don’t, I’ve never seen someone in, in like them, like I wanna. I just don’t function that way.

So, well, you’re

Malcolm Collins: gonna need to, because we’re gonna do some ratings here, Simone, so you’re gonna need to let me know of

Simone Collins: based on bankability or based on just how pretty they are. ‘cause that’s a different thing.

Malcolm Collins: Base base. Let’s, let’s do both. Let’s do both here. Okay? Mm-hmm. Okay. So a 2020 study found that a racial hierarchy emerges from multiracial daters consistent with past research.

Oh. All groups responded to their own in-group, most except for Hispanic white women. So this was looking at mixed groups who preferred white men. So, in the only group where you had one group preferring another ethnic group, it was Hispanic slash white who preferred white. And, and, and keep in mind we’re saying Hispanic, we’re basically saying Southern European, but for some reason we’ve divided them into a separate ethnic group.

Mm-hmm. They, they don’t have that much Native American DNA. They have I think even in like high circumstances, like [00:20:00] 20%. Hmm. Which is not enough for me to think of them as, as separate from just. Spaniards.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And, and they don’t look different than Spaniards. Like, have you been to Spain or Italy?

Like, they look like Argentinians or Mexicans. Like, what, what? Mm-hmm. What, what are we going on about here? Alright, so next study here, tipping the multiracial color line.. Racialized preferences of multiracial online daters. Oh, and that was the study we were just reading there.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Another interesting thing here is, oh, they, they have charts on this one, so I’ll put the charts on the screen here.

Yeah. So we can see white women responding what they think of different ethnic groups, and we can see white men responding what they think of various ethnic groups.

Mm. And what you see here is that white women if you’re looking at Asian white, those appear at the same rate or hotter than white men. The error bars push them higher because it’s it’s, it is whiter. There’s, there’s more variance and preference there. Mm-hmm. Black, white is, is, is [00:21:00] significantly lower.

They, they like that lower Hispanic white is pretty high, almost as much as white men. Or, or should say Southern European, white. And then if you look at, or should I say Catholic, white? Really piss people off. People point out the Irish or Catholic. I know there’s one northern European Catholic group.

Good for them. Then you have let’s do that. That’ll piss people off more. So it’s more fun. Look at her eyes rolling into her head here. My God. So what, but what’s interesting is that white women, the ones who will freak out at you for saying you have a racial preference

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: They have way stronger racial preferences against dating or finding attractive Hispanics, blacks or Asians than white men.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But typically the pe I mean, there’s this whole thing where if someone’s uniquely homophobic, they might have a little bit of a same sex attractive. Right? Like people tend to get really defensive around things that they find offensive. [00:22:00] People only find things offensive when they credibly. Threaten their worldviews.

Yeah.

And you’re only only gonna feel credibly threatened around racism if you actually have racist feelings. So I totally understand that. If you’re like, wow, I like really?

Malcolm Collins: So this is really interesting. So white women mm-hmm. Have really do not like, like straight Asian, black or Hispanic in this chart.

White men, they like Hispanics or Catholics, let’s put it this way, just as much as they like white people. Asian, white.

Simone Collins: But do you see this with passport bros. Yeah, you don’t hear about passport. What, what we call them passport chicks. Passport,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Yeah. And, and remember how we both said that Asian white is a uniquely hot mix?

Mm-hmm. White men on average agree to this. White men prefer half Asian, half white women over white women.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And they also prefer Catholic white women over white women but only slightly. And, and black, white, they barely care. But what’s interesting is they’re just [00:23:00] not that racist in their preferences.

What, what’s interesting is they prefer the, the Southern European group about the same as they prefer the white group. Mm-hmm. Whereas women have an aversion to them that’s both strong and almost as big as their aversion to dating black people. But the Asian

Simone Collins: could this also be due to cultural differences?

Because maybe on average they think that those groups are more traditional in the sense that they’re going to expect more from them. Like the only people who are gonna to, okay, so like put this in the words of many people who are in the comment sections of our podcast, the only people who are gonna tolerate the feminist b******t of white women are white men.

Does that make sense?

So maybe they prefer to date white men as a result because those, they just tend to like bend over and take it more.

Malcolm Collins: No, I think what we’re seeing here is men will screw anything that they can get pregnant unless there’s like some externality. Mm-hmm. And so, you’re seeing less because I think that many men here are thinking about like, sex and not dating.

And these charts, they’re talking about how arousing is a [00:24:00] face.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So they’re just like, yeah, I’ll, I’ll

Malcolm Collins: screw anything. I mean, come

Simone Collins: on, put

Malcolm Collins: it in front of me. But

Simone Collins: as we’ve seen from those famous and amazing studies where there’s just a random person on a college campus who’s like, Hey, wanna go, like, wanna go right now?

And they’re like, yeah, let’s do it.

Malcolm Collins: Huge portion of men are like, yeah, sure. Why not?

Simone Collins: Yeah. No questions asked.

Malcolm Collins: And to be the person who got paid to do that, oh my God.

Simone Collins: I would just, I couldn’t do it because I would feel so bad to be like, psych,

Malcolm Collins: psych.

Simone Collins: That’s not nice. Don’t do that psych

Malcolm Collins: buddy. So, so, so anyway, so mean, it’s really mean.

The, the other interesting thing here is the one ethnicity that white men do have a, a stated anti preference for mm-hmm. Is straight black women. And it’s, it’s not as big as white women’s, but it is still pretty big. And I would say, like, if I search myself, God, I don’t want this clip, but like I, I know that it, I have less of a [00:25:00] preference for black women than women of many other ethnic groups.

This, this doesn’t mean that there are not, I’ve, like, I’ve slept with actually the only now if, if we’re counting his, like Catholics, I’ve slept with lots of Catholics, so we’re not counting them. But if we, if we’re talking about like what normal people would think of as non-white ethnic groups out of everyone I’ve slept with and people know, I’ve slept with a lot of people, I’ve only slept with one person who wasn’t white coded and that was a black person.

So I, I, I clearly, in terms of like where I’m putting my effort, I had a preference. Right. And that preference seems to match with this, you know, the, the, did I ever sleep with somebody who is Hispanic? I don’t think I did.

Simone Collins: I think sometimes

Malcolm Collins: a of Irish from Good tell a lot of, and Italians but never Hispanic.

Mm-hmm. Lots of Irish. So, anyway,

Simone Collins: that, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: To keep going here. And then if we look at the different groups, so I’m not gonna go through them all. We’re not gonna go as deep well them, but if we’re, if we’re looking at [00:26:00] Asian women mm-hmm. It is Asian, white is the highest preference, then white, then Asian.

That sucks to be Asian with that. Okay. Holy, holy. For Asian men it’s Asian, white. Then Asian, then white.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Demographically again, you know, like whenever there’s some kind of demographic collapse issue that comes up, I’m just like, there’s a

Malcolm Collins: lot of, there’s a lot of people in the prenatal list movement who are Asian white couples.

They’re

Simone Collins: gonna be I know, but that’s the thing. Yeah. I mean, they’re, they’re single handedly keeping going, going, but also, I mean. Not necessarily, ‘cause they’re mixing in their own history and culture with their kids as well. So their kids are not necessarily, I dunno, many

Malcolm Collins: Asians that wanna keep their culture, if I’m gonna be honest here, a lot of Asians.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean that’s one of the big arguments that’s made up when, or presented when, for example, south Koreans are asked why they’re not having kids. Why would I bring another kid to experience what I experienced growing up, the tests, the anxiety, the, the grind. Yeah. I, [00:27:00] it’s, it’s understandable. Well,

Malcolm Collins: no, even when they come to the US they often don’t, like, I, I mean, I, I point out, I think that’s why South Asians, IE Indians are less affected by the urban monoculture than East Asians because they have more of an affinity for their own culture.

Mm-hmm. There’s like things about being Indian that are sold to them as kids that are fun and cool and better than the urban monoculture. Whereas all of the additional stuff of East Asian culture, the Confucianism could just feel like extra rules and obedience and needing to care about old people.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s really, what’s so interesting is I had I had friends. In school, good friends who were Chinese, Vietnamese, and South Korean. And it, the, the only one who had an amazing family life who would definitely carry on her culture was Vietnamese. And the others just had home lives that were pretty cold that I, they, I think they really didn’t wanna pass on.

And, and they also don’t,

Malcolm Collins: well, no. Okay. So here’s a great example of this. If you’re looking at East [00:28:00] Asians, who I’ve seen that do want to pass on their culture mm-hmm. And do like, one that I consistently fear Filipinos. But

Simone Collins: yeah, Filipino. Oh yeah. They had amazing family. Yeah. No, I had some Filipino friends too.

Yeah. They had awesome families. They would like, they were fun.

Malcolm Collins: They tell, yeah. They’d be like, I wanna do, and the reason why, yeah. The Filipinos wanna do Filipino stuff with Filipino kids, like even if they date or marry interracial. Mm-hmm. They tell their spart partner. Hey, I wanna do like the types of barbecues that I did when I was a kid and the types of unique traditions I did when I was a kid, because those were fun.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But I think that a lot of, now the way that you solve this with East Asian traditions, like, Chinese and Japanese and stuff like that, and I’ve seen it. Mm-hmm. Taiwanese, I’ve seen this done well. Mm-hmm. Is if you’re in like the Bay Area where I hung out with some of my friends who did wanna carry on their culture mm-hmm.

They would go to schools that were like specifically for the descendants of that ethnic group.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: Chinese

Simone Collins: schools. Yeah. I had a bunch of friends who went to Chinese schools and

Malcolm Collins: they were like white, more cool, excited [00:29:00] about Chinese culture,

Simone Collins: the ones I knew who went to Chinese school, although they were much more entrenched in their communities.

So there was that. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let’s go to the next one here. Hispanic women. Hispanic women. Okay. Prefer Hispanic white men the most.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Thin, white. Mm-hmm. Then Hispanic. So we’re getting a lot of

Speaker 2: Oh s**t, here we go. It’s on. Race, war. Race, war, race, war, race war’s on everybody.

It’s going down. It’s going down.

Token Forfeit. Whites win. Whites win. Race, war, everybody whites.

Simone Collins: .

Yeah. I mean, we are so No, no, no. We’re not

Malcolm Collins: gonna say anything nice about, it’s about to, it’s about to get worse, Simone.

Simone Collins: Don’t tell me that.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So let’s look at Hispanic men. So, Hispanic men prefer Hispanic women Most

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Than white women than Hispanic, white. [00:30:00]

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Which is an interesting one. No, no. This is where it gets spicy.

Simone Collins: Wait, what, what is the difference between Hispanic and Hispanic White?

Malcolm Collins: These are people who are half Hispanic and half white.

We’re looking at interracial. Oh,

Simone Collins: oh,

Malcolm Collins: sorry.

Simone Collins: Sorry. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And why interracial is interesting is we see a giant boost to being half white. If you’re half white, you typically outcompete that group’s own ethnicity. Even e even, even when and, and you even see this for e even when. White is not the preference over that group.

Simone Collins: Hey, remember, remember though? Remember when I, when I had that, that I did that episode on cousin marriage and interracial marriage, and my takeaway was like, okay, either you should marry your third or fourth cousin, or you should marry someone of a different race with some little considerations and caveats based on what sex you are.

Like if you’re a white dude, be careful about marrying an Asian or [00:31:00] African woman. Just ‘cause their gestation windows are a little different. Or just be, be proper to maybe have a slightly premature born kid. That’s it though. Like, that’s it. That’s fine. So yeah, I, there their

Malcolm Collins: gestational windows are, are slightly shorter and the

Simone Collins: baby

Malcolm Collins: doesn’t know that.

And there’s been some, like the genes of the baby don’t know that. Mm-hmm. And so it expects a longer gestational period and so it’s like having a preemie with a normal,

Simone Collins: so it’s Ted. Yeah. So you just make sure you have good health insurance.

Malcolm Collins: No, but there’s a really, the nicu, very expensive Good study on this that basically proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt from my perspective that showed that if you look at the children born to interracial couples mm-hmm.

Where one of them is of Esic group that has a shorter gestational window

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: If that one of them is the male you see? No.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Whereas if she’s female Yeah. Her body’s

Malcolm Collins: female and that’s because that’s where it’s being carried. Right.

Simone Collins: So there’s eviction notice. Yeah. So, but, but that’s, so that is a very manageable risk, assuming you have good.

Medical, like prenatal and postnatal care we’re, that’s very manageable.

Malcolm Collins: We’re looking to a spicy one here, [00:32:00] and I just, for people wanna know, they wanna verify this stuff. This is from positioning multiracial and cyberspace, uhhuh treatment of online daters in an online dating site, January, 2015. Okay, so now let’s get to black women.

Black women’s preference goes white men.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Black, white men. Black men. They think white men are the most attractive than black. White than black. That is,

Simone Collins: God. What’s so bad about this? J And actually, I, I saw we saw this. People we know anecdotally, like black women, we know anecdotally. We’ve seen this.

Malcolm Collins: Well, this, this gets me. Why is it that black women can have a, oh, oh, hold on. It’s the same for black men by the way. Preference goes black, white is the highest, then white, then black.

Simone Collins: But we know this with black men. We know anecdotally do.

Malcolm Collins: Why do black men get to say in their, in, [00:33:00] in their, in their actual observed preferences in online dating that that white women are hotter to them And a white guy can’t say that.

That’s, that’s weird. This is the observed preferences here. Right? And by the way, people are wondering why I think this might be the case with black people. It’s because we are grouping groups that have no genetic relation together as quote unquote black. Mm-hmm. And through that, what I mean is the genetic diversity within the population we call black is way bigger.

Like mm-hmm. I always say if you’re dividing humanity into like six ethnic groups native Americans, Europeans, east Asians, south Asians would all be one group. Mm-hmm. And the other five would all be in Africa. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. The, the, the, there, the, the, and, and it’s just huge. Watch our video of like our, is humanity, one species.

If you wanna see just how huge the diversity is within African groups. Mm-hmm. In fact, a lot of the African groups that you are gonna meet throughout your life were [00:34:00] West African groups are more related to Europeans than they are. To most other African groups. Yeah. So

Simone Collins: this idea that we would group all, all, all African, no.

Malcolm Collins: And so if you are looking at faces, right? And every group has an in-group preference. Mm-hmm. Right? The blacks don’t have that in-group preference, waiting on the stage.

Simone Collins: You make a really good point. It’s like, yeah. What do you mean I prefer my own? This person doesn’t look at it at all. Like me doesn’t feel at all like me.

Yeah. I I That’s a really good point. Yeah. You’re, you’re asking, you’re acting as though they’re not preferring their own when their own, in this case really isn’t necessarily that similar to them. Yeah, that’s a, oh, I’ve never seen that point made before. Ever. And

Malcolm Collins: this is one of the reasons why it’s bad to like pedal this idea of a pan black identity.

Simone Collins: Yeah, totally. ‘

Malcolm Collins: cause there isn’t a pan black identity. Mm-hmm. And, and, and, and pedaling it [00:35:00] causes I think I think the only reason it was pedaled was so that the progressives could attempt to hijack the black movement and turn it against itself. Mm. And say, look, you, you have, and, and they, they even erased the pan black identity and made it bipoc.

Now it’s everyone, it, it’s, it’s blacks and southern Europeans Right. Are somehow in the same boat now when they’re like, objectively not. In terms of discrimination, in terms of dating, in terms of as we’re gonna see here. Right. Like, and this is the thing like blacks actually have it pretty effing hard, but not for the reasons people say.

Right. Like, would it not suck if your own ethnic group preferred to date other ethnic groups to you? Mm-hmm. Like that would suck. Like I wouldn’t feel good about that. Right? Yeah. So now we’re gonna look at a paper that’s just gonna back up some of what we’ve already found here. Okay. Racial preferences and dating.

Mm-hmm. And this paper showed that women of all races exhibited strong same race preferences. Now note here we’ve seen this isn’t the case in other papers, but I’m assuming that a lot of papers were afraid to say except for [00:36:00] black women they were significantly more likely to say yes to partners of their own race and less likely to non co-ethnic.

Whereas men showed no race of, of no race showed statistically higher significant same race preferences. Overall, men’s decisions were much less influenced by race compared to women’s. And we saw this in the other studies as well. Women are the porn racists. Okay. But think of it. Think, think about it.

Think about it, think about it. Go into a woman’s book. We, I actually do this all the time with Simone ‘cause we go walking in Walmart and in BJ’s. Mm-hmm. And we like looking at the, the book section. Mm-hmm. And I love looking at the women’s sort of, obviously women porn, the erotic book section.

Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: For women, I have, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a non-white male lead in one of those books where he’s not like a mino tar or something. Ha. Have you ever seen a non-white male lead in one of the leading female erotic fictions?

Simone Collins: I want to say I think so, but I, I, I don’t think [00:37:00] that’s correct.

Like, I wanna, I can, I can picture one right now of that classic design that you, you exactly know what I’m talking about. That like, stupid illustration design that looks like, as you say, an upworker did it. But yeah, no, I. Right. I she Fat ones, oh no. Only the woman’s fat. Nevermind. And, and

Malcolm Collins: especially if we’re going at like the all time greats.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You know, have you ever, ever if we’re we’re talking about the gr twilight,

Simone Collins: well, it wasn’t Fabio Southern European

Malcolm Collins: in Twilight. What, which one is his?

Simone Collins: Well, Fabio was the, the famous male model who was used on Bodice River Romance covers in like the eighties, nineties. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I,

Simone Collins: you get a very, like, He-Man, look, it’s very not in now.

That was, well, everyone’s into more like th thinner, slimmer male.

Malcolm Collins: So, so, if you look at Twilight,

Simone Collins: okay.

Malcolm Collins: There is I think one Native American heart throb in it, right? Yeah. So we’re getting, we’re getting one nonwhite here, which we haven’t really gone into.

Simone Collins: That’s true.

Malcolm Collins: That’s true. [00:38:00] We look at 50 shades of gray, white, white.

We look at, I’m thinking of the other ones, like a thorn of heart and roses or whatever. I think it’s all white. We look at game of Thrones, all of the, the supposedly attractive characters are white. Except for some of the women who are made to look like spicy ethnic or whatever. Right. We, and I think that, that people don’t realize how much they’re damaging their remix.

I mean, look at all the women who thirst after Snape and now snake black.

Then moving staircases, aint it? Fa there are health and safety hazard in it. Man’s nearly fell to his death on the way to Potson class. Them is mad. Tings, thank you for your time, professor Snake.

Malcolm Collins: And I gotta put that clip I heard that they might be reversing his casting. Oh. But I, but I think that they’re also, you know, this is another place where DEI hurts them, where they don’t understand that.

Like that’s what people thirst after. Mm-hmm. Right? Like you gotta look at what they’re actually thirsting after. And with men, I think you see a lot more ethnic variety in popular porn stars.

Simone Collins: Well, and heated rivalry. It’s a Russian and like an a, well, a [00:39:00] Canadian, but I think of some form of Asian to say those are.

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Simone Collins: so yeah, we got

Malcolm Collins: 1 1, 1 Asian in there.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But remember if he’s Asian white, that scores very well for white women.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t know if the character’s supposed to be like 100% because his mom features and she’s Asian, but I don’t know. Okay. I I, I honestly, after we did our Home Ywe episode, I tried to watch it watch, and one it is, it’s not even trying to be a real show.

Like, it’s not even y Yuri On Ice, for example, which is another Yi anime that we talked about on that episode actually has like a fun plot. It has cute moments and everything. This didn’t have anything but just like, literally just sexual tension scenes and then like more explicit scenes. So it’s, it’s just, I, I couldn’t watch it.

It was unwatchable.

Malcolm Collins: It’s just basically,

Simone Collins: it’s not even cute. It’s not even cute. That’s the problem. I, I liked Ywe for the squee bit. Like, oh, how cute. Like, now they’re this,

Malcolm Collins: this for women who want like aggressive.

Simone Collins: Like, yeah, no, it’s just like, I [00:40:00] wanna watch men like thirst after each other and like look each other up and down and shower next to each other and like, you thirst for each other, like just yearn for each other.

It’s so funny, like in Yuri on Ice, there’s a scene in which they’re bathing together. But like one is like, oh, like, ugh. Whereas like there’s this other scene and there’s also a bathing together scene really early on in, in the gay romance hockey show, heated rivalry, but they’re just like showering next to each other and like actively thirsting for each other and just actively looking at each other’s junk.

And then just being like, not here. And it just, it just really bothers me. I’m like, this is not good like this. Anyway, he’s not white. One of them is not white. So just putting that out. Go on now. So basically white men, everyone wants white men. Whoa.

Malcolm Collins: So basically you’re saying the show is like, and I’m gonna put the

Simone Collins: I’m gay

Malcolm Collins: jump

Simone Collins: scene.

I am [00:41:00] gay.

Simone Collins: It’s not even trying. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not even trying. They’re not you, you can’t even say that you’re watching it for the plot. And that’s what I have a, a lot of trouble with. ‘cause the plot sucks. There was, well, there’s, well there was no plot anyway.

Malcolm Collins: It’s just anyway, to continue

Simone Collins: here. No, no. Like literally I have seen, I have seen erotic material, like just literally not even like, like the male kind, not women’s written stuff, but like, just stuff that you’d find on P-O-R-N-H-U-B that has a better plot than heated rivalry.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. To continue here, Simone.

Simone Collins: And that

Malcolm Collins: I can see this affected you

Simone Collins: very. Yes. I lost minutes of my life in, in, go on.

Malcolm Collins: I can see this affected you. So,

here I’m putting on screen the famous chart just to, for all of our, our guys who want to scream at statistics that shows that men rate women evenly with, you know, 6% being in the most attractive 6% being in the least attractive category.

Okay?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: With [00:42:00] most other women rated as fairly attractive, even when you go down to like the lower category of attractiveness whereas women really only rate the top 80% of men as attractive at all. Okay. So, you see women really do have this pattern. Now we’re gonna go to a section of the Okay.

Cupid score that I hadn’t seen recently. Okay. So we can go over it first. Mm-hmm. So it’s men rating women here.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So Asian men rating various ethnic groups

and what you see here is Latino women and white women. They didn’t really, and this was actively rating them, this wasn’t email rates, which we’re gonna see in a second.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Asian men. Very strong preference for Asian women. Very strong negative preference for black women. Didn’t really care about Latina and white women. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Black men rating. They had a slight preference for both Asian women and Latino women over black women. So 2% to 1%, statistically likely [00:43:00] negligible.

But yes, they had a preference for non-black women, over black women in rating them. Now here in this one, we see them rating white women as less than black women in, in terms of attractiveness, which is,

Simone Collins: okay, there we go.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, great. Mm-hmm. Not, not by much, but by a little. True. Yeah. Now, Latino women dating again, we see the pattern here.

Very strong negative rating of, of sorry. This is Latina men rating. Yeah. Of black women. Okay. Did not like. And then a high preference for Latino women and not much care whether Asian or white, like those are lower than Latino women. But you do have an in-group preference here. Okay. White men rating, oh.

We’re getting to race traders here again. What, what race do you think white men think it’s the hottest?

Simone Collins: Asian women.

Malcolm Collins: Asian women? Yeah.

Simone Collins: They call it yellow fever for a reason. There’s no, like, there’s no other term I know of that has to do with some male fetishization of another ethnic group. So it’s an obvious.

Malcolm Collins: I the only white [00:44:00] guy who does not think Asian women are more attractive. I dunno, people in the comments. But yeah, white men, but and a strong negative preference for black women.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: But what’s interesting is that there the, the difference between Latino and white was, was pretty small for white men here.

Okay? Now, what you’re sort of seeing across the board is nobody but black men wants to date black women within these statistics. Which is sad. I think. Now we’re gonna look at the, the most negatively rated here, Asian women rating. So this is, this is where they, they have a. Very strong preference.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: They really, really like Asian men. So they, they do have the highest preference for Asian men, but they also have a huge preference for white men, 18% plus for white men. They,

Simone Collins: so the yellow fever is not unrequited,

Malcolm Collins: is that it’s not an unrequited thing. They have have a huge negative association with black men, 27% negative.

But what’s also interesting is they have the highest distinction of any, any individual here of distinguishing between Latino men and [00:45:00] white men or, or Latinos and whites at all. They have a negative preference for Latinos of negative 15% and a preference for whites of plus 18%. That’s so interest, interest at Southern European versus Northern European of negative 15% to 18%.

Now consider, if we go to white women rating here, oh, they have a huge difference as well, actually. So it, it turns out that women can really tell the difference between southern Europe, northern Europeans, and have a strong preference for Northern Europeans. Hmm. White women have a 19% preference for Northern Europeans and only a 1% preference for Southern Europeans.

Was, again, huge negatives for blacks and Asian men here which is yikes. Again, they’re the, they’re the ones who say they don’t have this black women rating. This is where we get the, the, the, the faith again in humanity. Mm-hmm. Okay. They rated black men as the hottest unfortunately that’s not shown in their actual dating patterns, which we’ll see in second.

But they rate black men as a plus 23%. [00:46:00] Okay. Asian men, they really don’t like negative 13% Latino and white low. So no

Simone Collins: love loss there. Yeah. They just don’t, don’t care for each other.

Malcolm Collins: Latino women rating did not like black men. Did not like Asian men. Big negatives there and high preference for Latino men.

18% and white men, 12%. So that was really fascinating. Now

Simone Collins: this is also like not like I wonder. Is there an Armenian thing for black men? I mean, look at the Kardashians and who they’ve married. Yeah. I, I This is not all inclusive. Yeah. So who knows? You know, I, you, you gotta understand where you have tiny arbitrage opportunities.

And maybe

Malcolm Collins: I, Alan needs to do a study on this. This is, this is what we need. This is a study we need. And I, and we’re gonna have to do this subjectively here.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: So, now I’m putting up a chart that shows how much

different people match with each other. Okay. And you can see based on like score matching.

Pretty much everyone matches equally with each other, okay? Mm-hmm. So this is not because of personality that we’re seeing here. Okay? Now, if we look at reply rates by race, [00:47:00] female cinder, okay? Mm-hmm. You notice some things just immediately jump out at you.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Nobody responds to black women. Aw.

Everybody responds to Middle Eastern females and Asian females. They get high response rates across the board. But the, the sad thing about black women is black males respond to every other female demographic sign higher than they respond to black women. Hmm. So black women in, in, in, in fact, black

Simone Collins: women, could this do, I mean, as you pointed out that because there is so much variation among the, like people who come from the African continent in terms of their heritage.

There’s just so much of a negative modifier put on like, oh, I think this person’s gonna really fit well with me. Oh, actually, we’re so, so different and not actually a problem. I know, I completely

Malcolm Collins: agree. I think you make a strong point. Mm. But, but I’d point out here if you wanna get [00:48:00] sadder, if you are a black woman, woman, you have a better chance statistically shooting your shot with a Middle Eastern male, a Native American male, or a whatever other male is.

Simone Collins: Well, I guess maybe because they’re more known quantities. You know,

Malcolm Collins: I, I don’t know. Or it might be that these groups are unreferenced as well by women. The, the other one which is an interesting, you get a few like interesting, like big negative spots here.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That’s really interesting is Pacific Islander females, Indian men do not like them.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Response rates from Indian men.

Simone Collins: Must have been a small sample though.

Malcolm Collins: No, this is an enormous sample.

Simone Collins: Oh really?

Malcolm Collins: The, the OkCupid data set is stupidly large. That’s what makes it so famous because it’s literally all on their platform.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The oh, let’s look at white, white females. Any, any interesting thing here.

Oh, this is interesting. There’s also one race that almost never emails back or emails back at lower [00:49:00] rates than pretty much every other ethnic group. Mm-hmm. And they are white males. If you are a, a white female, for example, every other ethnic group is significantly more likely to male you back than white males.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: White males mail back their own ethnicity less than any other group. And I think it’s just ‘cause they’re so in demand, as we can see by the other statistics.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Now let’s look at if the male is CI sender. Mm-hmm. And, and this is where we can look at native, native Americans, because I haven’t seen them broken out on any other chart yet, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, okay. What do, what do. White women. What’s their response rate to Native American males? High.

Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Very high actually.

Simone Collins: Jacob Twilight. There you go.

Malcolm Collins: It is, it is the highest response rate that white women give to any ethnic match other than white

Simone Collins: males. Well, that would, that would explain why in twilight there was this creation of a fetishized fe fetish, fetishized [00:50:00] fetishized native American werewolf man.

Malcolm Collins: And here you see one of the saddest bars in history, which is remember how there was that big black bar, red bar on like what black women who basically no one ever replies to, they reply at higher rates than just about any ethnicity, to any ethnicity. They are desperate. And you can see why in the data it is a sad state to be a black woman in online dating.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s, yeah. If you’re not, if you’re not watching and you’re listening instead. This is a chart that has a lot of green and then orange and red and red, bad, red, bad. And there’s just one big, basically red band across the graph. And it’s, it’s black females. That’s really sad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But, but also here you see people respond, women respond to black males at significantly lower rates as well.

Mm-hmm. It’s not as distinct as black females, but it’s, it’s significantly lower. And this is unfair. You know, you, you have a lot of incel talk about this in the incel community. It’s height and ethnicity. [00:51:00] That’s what girls are looking for. They’re looking for tall and northern European. Mm-hmm. And that is, and everybody leaves out this ethnicity.

Simone Collins: I think it’s important to note though, that, think about this in, in another way. Think about South Korea, the place of the four Bs movement where women are swearing off even just dating men or having sex with men. I wonder if one of the reasons why women around the world seem to prefer Northern European men is that they are among the most gender egalitarian, culturally speaking, so they expect better treatment or more preferential treatment from those men.

Could that be like, is it not just based on appearance here? It could just be both.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I know that there is a fantasy among a lot of Korean women when they’re interviewed that they are going to ex expat from the country and marry a white guy. It’s usually like, I’m gonna go to New Zealand, or I’m gonna go to the US and I’m gonna get married.

And because they don’t want to, but that’s, that’s part of the cultural fantasy. They believe and I believe [00:52:00] accurately mm-hmm. That, that white males have a more gender, especially Northern European white males, which is probably why they prefer the Northern European to the Latinos so much. Mm-hmm.

Have a much more gender egalitarian assumption about how relationships will be structured.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is accurate. They do even, even like a big red pillar is likely gonna be slightly more gender egalitarian than your average guy dating in South Korea.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And we pointed out you need gender egalitarianism to breed, like the, the people who, oh, it’s all feminism salt.

It’s all feminism salt. It’s just like. Objectively not true. The countries that are more gender egalitarian have higher fer, the wealthy ones at least. Mm-hmm. Like the United States and Australia mm-hmm. Are, have higher fertility rates than the ones that aren’t.

Simone Collins: But, and you also, I mean, I, I feel like this is even playing out in the preference for Northern European men over Southern European.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, absolutely. And you even see this in the data.

When the feminist movement started in the United States, fertility collapse actually abated significantly for most of the steep fertility decline happened. Pre 1930 and then like [00:53:00] in the 1930s to 1940s, it basically hit a wall and, and, and, and started to slow down significantly.

Mm-hmm. So I, I know it doesn’t fit the narrative that we want to be out there, but it’s what’s true and we gotta work with what’s true rather than what we want to be true. Right? Yeah. And I think that admitting that gender egalitarianism has a place in resolving fertility collapse is important if we’re being honest with ourselves.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And then it’s a, it’s a factor in the dating data

Malcolm Collins: based

Simone Collins: five minute warning, by the way. Oh, we have to get the kids in five minutes.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, Simone. So, we can finish off the, the ethnic ranking in a bit that we’ll just do together some other day. But what I wanted to point out here

Simone Collins: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Because I think that this is also very, very interesting. Mm-hmm.

If you are a white male emailing a black woman. There is a 38% chance that she’s going to respond to you. Mm-hmm. So that means you have a higher response rate. If you wanna talk about how bad it is to be a male in our society these days, dating,

Simone Collins: yeah.[00:54:00]

Malcolm Collins: White men emailing black women have a higher response rate from black women than black women do. When they email almost any other ethnicity, including black men. Mm-hmm. It is worse to be a black woman on the dating market

Simone Collins: than it is to

Malcolm Collins: be a man, than it’s to be a white man on the dating market. I didn’t, I just wanted hit that home for you guys.

If you’re looking across all, uh, ethnicities, the average reply rate for black women is still higher than for white men. But if you’re looking specifically at the reply rate for black women to white men, this is true.

Malcolm Collins: If you’re here thinking, oh, this is so cool, whites are the hot. It begins to get to a point like, whoa man, maybe they are actually discriminated against. Like, like this is, this is a, this sucks.

Simone Collins: I I’m so glad I did not have to date as a man. I have to [00:55:00] say I really appreciate it. ‘cause I was just shooting fish in a barrel because I actually spammed male accounts.

So I was able to get, I, I don’t know how you kept your pipeline. You as a

Malcolm Collins: white woman get around a 50% reply rate from pretty much anyone you emailed.

Simone Collins: I feel like I didn’t get that. There’s something wrong with me. I feel like maybe the best I got was 33%. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: so you’re, you’re, you did co you did, I didn’t I didn’t actively reach out to you.

‘cause you co you covered up your, you, you did the angles. You did the angles. You looked like a fat woman.

Simone Collins: Thanks. You can’t, I guess there is such a thing as a fat storm trooper, you can kind of tell, I was gonna argue that you can’t really be fat and wear a storm Trooper armor, but then again, you couldn’t see my face.

So maybe they thought, but there were other pictures that included my face. I looked older then though, than I do now, you know, which is weird. You know, I don’t,

Malcolm Collins: I don’t wanna make this episode any longer than this, so we’ll actually do a separate episode where we [00:56:00] personally rate ethnic groups.

Simone Collins: Maybe we’ll do that on the weekend,

Malcolm Collins: I think.

Simone Collins: Yeah. For paid subscribers only.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: because I don’t need that many people that have clips of us talking about that. Maybe not Malcolm, because I don’t know. I’ve, I’ve already said my top tier, which is Northern European plus Japanese mostly Irish, Japanese. That’s, that’s S tier, everything else.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

I’ve

Simone Collins: already, I’ve

Malcolm Collins: already said my spicy thing that despite all of the sleeping around I did, it was basically only with Northern Europeans.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And,

Malcolm Collins: and occasional Italians and

Simone Collins: French. Well, but the thing is though, you knew, you found your arbitrage play as a man, and it was mostly to be a sort of like aggressive hot nerd

Malcolm Collins: and Oh,

Simone Collins: and that

Malcolm Collins: plays to that crowd.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You, that 100% plays to this like nerdy European girl type, the bookish dark [00:57:00] academia co well now cottage core nerdy Harry Potter thing. And that was the type I went

Malcolm Collins: after.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And like you just don’t find that many other, other types of girls, like from different cultural backgrounds. You have backgrounds.

Oh, that’s a good point. Like,

Malcolm Collins: like there’s not that many Asian vampire girls.

Simone Collins: No, I’ve never met. Really like an Asian vampire girl who’s like into that. Yeah. I’m sure they’re there. I’m sure they’re out there. There’s, there’s gotta be plenty of, I like, yeah, there’s gotta be out there. My Asian friends as a kid weren’t like sims for vampires, but I had plenty of white friends.

Girl, girl. I hate saying girlfriends, but like friends who are girls who are Simms for vampires. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I know I is weird. I

Malcolm Collins: don’t dunno, any of my interethnic friends that were like, are

Simone Collins: white. Yes, but, and also like, can you imagine, can you imagine an, I mean, then there were Asian goths too, but I just can’t imagine like a, an Indian girl dating junior new rock boots.

You know what I mean? Like, it just doesn’t Yeah, no, they wouldn’t compute the [00:58:00] same way. And like maybe if you lived in a city where like they, oh, and I, I dated

Malcolm Collins: lots of, of, of Jewish people as well. That was the other Jewish Ramani people were the two other groups that

I

Simone Collins: dating. I think you have to just be aware of the fact that also like.

But I’ve had a lot of are gonna like you

Malcolm Collins: into vampire girls. So IIII think it’s no, but here’s the, here’s the thing, right? Like I think it’s the, the, the reason might be that to create, if you live within Jewish culture or white culture mm-hmm. A fantasy, like if you, if you want to satisfy a fetish around having an incredibly dominant partner, right?

Mm-hmm. That for white women and, and Jewish

Simone Collins: women. Oh yeah. You’re not allowed to want that.

Malcolm Collins: That only happens. It needs to be a

Simone Collins: monster. It needs to be

Malcolm Collins: supernatural. If you’re an Asian woman or you are a South Asian woman, that happens at home, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s just called being a man

Malcolm Collins: that’s just called being a man.

So that might be why used to do that fantasy more in that population.

Simone Collins: That’s funny. Yeah, I could see that.

Malcolm Collins: Alright,

Simone Collins: well this has been [00:59:00] enlightening. Well, not, not actually like we knew this data before. I just, it’s been a while, so. I’ve re-upped my horror and I guess dis collective disappointment in everyone, but also not, it makes sense.

You should, in the end, it’s best to marry someone where you have, have shared social contracts where you feel compatible and yeah, whatever. Like, do what works well for you. But I’m not gonna blame people for wanting to, to pair up with people who are like them because it’s lower stress. It’s just lower stress.

Even if there are significant advantages, which I’ve noted of, of pairing with people and having kids with people of different, like significantly different Yeah. Racial slash ethnic backgrounds. So again. Marry someone of a different racial or ethnic background, or marry your third or fourth cousin.

Malcolm Collins: And keep in mind the rankings of interracial children’s attractiveness because for example, the white Asian mix beats [01:00:00] it for white people. I can’t remember if it’s white men or women that have a preference for them over their own ethnicity,

Simone Collins: but they’d be pretty. Yeah, they’d be pretty.

Malcolm Collins: I can see why.

Anyway love you Simone. Love you

Simone Collins: too.

Malcolm Collins: You gotta make more of those white imperialist babies.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh yeah. For the empire. Yeah, for the empire. Yeah. Forgot that comment about you online.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Somebody said my, my sperm was being used imperialistically to create what this was before I became a prenatal list.

Yeah. They’re like, you’re increasing the world with your white sperm.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Something like that. Like girl word choice. First word, choice Second.

Malcolm Collins: I should have said next time I’ll breed a black woman.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, was that what you want?

Malcolm Collins: Is that what you want? Like,

Simone Collins: gee whiz. All right. Bye. Bye.

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Simone Collins: we need to get more sleep. Let’s, let us commit to this.

Malcolm Collins: I’ve just been so [01:01:00] tired. I even took a nap today. But I guess I woke up super early because I wanted to make sure that I didn’t have that problem in my head yesterday.

And Oh,

Simone Collins: where you got sufficient sleep, Uhhuh that,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, that was a big mistake.

Simone Collins: Huge mistake.

Malcolm Collins: Didn’t get as much done.

Simone Collins: I so hear you though.

Speaker 4: What are you doing and how did you get here? It’s like climbing up the poison stairs. But how did you do it without getting poisoned? ‘cause it was my some slip. That’s amazing. Yeah. And the color. Wow. And you’re in Dirty Daddy’s room. Is daddy’s room dirty? No, it’s not. I like your standards, girl. You’re gonna make a guy really happy.

One day. Yeah. Now all go back down. Okay, sweetheart. [01:02:00] Okay.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Malcolm and Simone Collins tear apart Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the cult of “self-actualization” — a concept that originated with Kurt Goldstein as an organism’s drive for wholeness and potential (think resilience after brain injury, survival, breeding), but Maslow flipped it into a progressive pinnacle achieved only after maxing out hedonistic “lower” needs like endless comfort, validation, sex, and esteem.

We explore how this fuels urban monoculture toxicity: identity obsessions, validation addiction, hedonism-maxxing, and extreme cases like adults regressing to child roles for “love without judgment.” We invert the pyramid — true fulfillment comes from suppressing distractions (Catholic mortification, naltrexone hacks, biblical detachment) to focus on civilization-building, pronatalism, sacrifice, and purpose, not self-worship or peak experiences.

Riffs include: South Park food pyramid flip, Einstein/Eleanor Roosevelt as flawed “self-actualized” icons (vs. Marie Curie’s two daughters and real achievement), degenerate NPR stories, why celebrities crash despite “needs met,” Buddhism as negative utilitarianism, and why 4+ kids often signals real alignment.

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to talk to you today. We are going to be discussing. The popularization and development of the term self-actualization, as well as the damage it has done to society. Tracing it again, I think it’s a horrible concept that is upstream of a lot of what makes the urban monoculture so toxic.

Oh. To a person’s mental framing of reality. Okay. We will provide alternate frameworks, which I think are better. And we will also be exploring the interesting truth behind the current term self-actualization, which is that it actually came from a pretty based concept. Self-actualization is even in the words of the guy who popularized it.

A rebranding of the concept of niche’s. Uber, minch, or a progressive audience?

Simone Collins: No. Oh my God. The PSYOPs of that. Wait, so was that Maslow of Maslow’s Ma

Malcolm Collins: Maslo Maslow was the one who, who popularized it and before him it meant something entirely different.

Simone Collins: Wow. [00:01:00] Okay. I’m really, I’m very curious to see what your ultimate take on all this is.

Like, is it gonna be a play on that South Park episode of like, we have to invert the pyramid? Are, are we now putting just survival at the, the top of the pyramid?

Malcolm Collins: Survival at the top. I actually like that a lot.

Speaker: The pyramid doesn’t work. We’ve already tried it. It’s upside down. What, sir? The pyramid is upside down. Turn the pyramid upside down. It can’t be serious. That would put butter and fat at the top of it. Flip the damn food pyramid

Malcolm Collins: Yes. We have to invert the pyramid. Let’s do it. Hierarchy of needs. I, I love that the White House actually posted a clip from that Yes.

Episode when they changed the food pyramid. And the funny thing is, is everyone was like, I mean, it’s basically right, like the nutritionists were like, I’m not complaining about this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You

Malcolm Collins: know?

Simone Collins: No, no, no, honestly. ‘cause you know, I, I listened to like all leftist media basically the, the leftist critique of it was not that it was [00:02:00] substantively wrong ‘cause they can’t actually argue against it.

It’s, it’s fairly correct as you say. So can you imagine what the leftist critique of it instead had to be?

Malcolm Collins: It wasn’t respe a respectable way to announce it.

Simone Collins: No, no, no, no. Okay. Well, I mean, okay. Yeah. They were like, well, I can’t believe they steal per two, but

Malcolm Collins: they took out sugar.

Simone Collins: No, they

Malcolm Collins: did take out sugar as, as a ever.

They’re

Simone Collins: like, I know. Well, because you shouldn’t. There should be no added sugars, period. There’s no point for that. Right. Anyway. No, it was, well, how dare they insinuate that people could afford vegetables and meat. I’m not kidding. I’m not kidding. That is 100%. Seriously. I think that was the Philip DeFranco take if, if memory serves, but yeah, they were, they were very freaked out about it that someone would have the gall to suggest.

And then they even went to a clip of some either Trump administration official or health official talking about that. No, it actually was quite affordable, you know, that that every, every American adult can eat, [00:03:00] you know, a piece of broccoli and a chicken breast and I can’t remember some other thing.

Malcolm Collins: I,

Simone Collins: I’m imagining five and they’re like, what? You think people can survive off of just a piece of broccoli and a piece of chicken? Like they’re freaking out about it. Anyway, so that was, that was,

Malcolm Collins: but I, what I love is the idea of a progressive rebranding of the food pyramid, except they just take out all the foods they perceive as expensive.

So it’s just, it’s still the bread.

Simone Collins: Well, it’s just all bread that you get in the bread line.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s all the bread. They, they take out all of the, the meat and the vegetables and the fruits. Mm-hmm. And then they just, they’re like, and. We’ll add in what, what are other cheap foods like chips and Fritos to like those categories.

And it’s like, and we’re not gonna take out sugar because you know, of course in oil, right? You gotta, you gotta deep fry stuff. That’s, that’s the new approved progressive one that they wanted. I love that you watch progressive media, so you know this stuff, but let’s get into this. All right.

Simone Collins: We call it bread tube for a reason.

I think they’re very, very insulted. When their breads, they gotta get

Malcolm Collins: all [00:04:00] that soy from somewhere.

Simone Collins: Well, I, I love bread though,

Malcolm Collins: or

Simone Collins: gluten or wine. My, my attempt to make homemade crumpets with my sourdough starter this morning was a complete failure,

Malcolm Collins: all

Simone Collins: humiliated.

Malcolm Collins: So Kurt Goldstein, a German neurologist and psychologist coined the term set actualization originally.

Oh my god. Am I gonna try to pronounce this Celebrative in German

Simone Collins: poop.

Malcolm Collins: I, I should put the,

Simone Collins: there you go.

Malcolm Collins: Danish, I guess. Alright. Alright. Right. Okay. In it 1939, so the book is only as old as 1939.

Simone Collins: Wow.

And that was the pre nietzche self-actualization.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. This was its original usage, the organism, a holistic approach to biology derived from pathological data in man. [00:05:00] He introduced it within organism theory, describing it as a fundamental driver for an organism to realize its full potential and maintain its wholeness, especially in the face of challenges like brain injuries.

Simone Collins: Oh. So is, is it like a, like a lizard with its tail cut off and it self actualizes if it grows the tail back? Are we talking like that?

Malcolm Collins: I think he’s talking more about how brain injury, self-Correct. Remember his background is in neurology. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah. And it, it has been sh like if you have a stroke, you have to relearn your actions.

Malcolm Collins: You’re born or you have a serious brain injury as a child. You can typically perform un noticeably different from other adults. Even if, and there’s been cases where people are born like without a hemisphere of their brain or without acute protection of their brain. And they can typically live mostly normal lives.

So, you know, he is, he is right in that regards. But [00:06:00] what I find interesting is I think if you recontextualize his initial take on this which is to say it is a fundamental driver for an organism to realize their full potential. And maintain wholeness. If we’re just looking at it like that, I think then it’s a good term.

It basically means to breed because that’s what an organism exists to do. And not die, right? Like

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or, or just to return to a normal stasis kind of state. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: To say breeding and not dying is self-actualization. I say, you know? Okay, good. Yeah. That’s, that’s a decent term. But

Simone Collins: you, you are gonna go for, this is inverting the pyramid already.

I can tell. Oh

my

Malcolm Collins: God. The rival invert the pyramid. Yeah. Okay. The concept was popularized by American psychologist Abraham Maslow, who adapted and refined it in his 1943 paper, A Theory of Human Motivation, where he positioned self-actualization as the pinnacle of his hierarchy of needs. Maslow’s work gained widespread attention in the 1950s and 1960s through books like Motivation [00:07:00] and Personality 1954, and the.

Towards a psychology of being 1962, framing it as the ultimate human motivation, achieving ones in eight potential after lower needs physiological safety, love esteem are met. He studied historical figures like Albert Einstein and Eleanor Roosevelt to identify traits of self actualized individuals such as peak experiences, autonomy, creativity, and realistic perception of the world.

Simone Collins: Eleanor Roosevelt of all people.

Malcolm Collins: Right? Well, what a cooked to brain do you have to be to be like Eleanor Roosevelt, self-actualizing.

Simone Collins: That’s who I think of for, well, I mean,

Malcolm Collins: even Einstein, right? He he did come up with some great theories when he was a kid, like, like very young. But if you look at his later work, a lot of it actually held back the field of particle physics and theoretical physics.

Oh yeah.

Basically he hated any ideas in physics that were probabilistic rather than deterministic, which is really important. When we [00:08:00] were developing the field of quantum mechanics though, things like spooky action at a distance, he just saw as ridiculous. I.

Malcolm Collins: Basically if a concept went against his presuppositions, he would push against it. And so a lot of ideas that we needed early in the development of our understanding of the quantum world, which basically breaks a lot of normal physical norms.

He was staunchly against him because he was so respected. It held back the field a lot. And so the, to, to say that he is the pinnacle of like self-knowledge or an understanding of the world, I think basically shows that Maslow is like the perfect pop psychologist, like the epitome of everything that I hate about pop psychology because to him being a self-actualized person basically meant like being a, a famous person within the progressive sort of washing of history.

Right. You know, I’m sure he added, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt in there. He’s like, well, I need some women, [00:09:00] so I’ll choose one that happened to be married to a successful man. Right. And that’s, you know, which I think is really bad for a lot of reasons. I mean, you know, he could have at least gone with like Marie Curry or something.

Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Right. She also had a lot of kids, didn’t she? Didn’t she?

Malcolm Collins: Marie Curry or Eleanor Roosevelt?

Simone Collins: Marie Curie. I think Eleanor Roosevelt was childless.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. You can, you can look it up.

Simone Collins: Yeah, will do. She, I think Marie Curia had like four kids or something, and Eleanor Roosevelt had had zero.

But I’ll, I’ll, I’ll I’ll correct myself if I’m wrong.

Malcolm Collins: Over time, the concept evolved within humanistic psychology, the quote unquote third force in psychology that emerged in the mid 20th century as a counter to psycho-analysis and behaviorism, psychologist Carl Rogers contributed in the 1950s by emphasizing actualizing tendency in client-centered therapy, viewing it as an inherent [00:10:00] drive towards growth and fulfillment in a supportive environment.

By the 1960s and 1970s, self-actualization influenced the human potential movement, including practices like encounter groups in Lon Institute workshops, or es es, Len Institute workshops.

So I decided to look. This episode, it was in the Assailant Institute, is a renowned non-profit and holistic retreat, an education institute located in Big Sur, California. , And it is widely regarded at the birth place in the epicenter of the Human Potential Movement, a mid 20th century wave focused on exploring and realizing untapped human capabilities through psychology, spirituality, body work, and personal growth.

The Assailant Institute pioneered . The integration of Eastern philosophies like meditation and yoga with Western science and humanistic psychology, helping popularize such practices such as Gestalt therapy, mindfulness, somatic work, Hal breath work, five rhythms, dance, Rolfing, , [00:11:00] making them more mainstream.

Malcolm Collins: That was like a weird cult that was sort of big in that period. Cult mix of cult and psychology. It was very much like figure it out yourself sort of stuff.

I, I don’t know, think it was as, you know, necessarily harmful, but if it’s what I’m remembering it is. So, Simone, what you find

Simone Collins: it, it froze. So I’ll let you know.

Malcolm Collins: Didn’t your parents go to eSalon workshops? eSalon Institute workshops?

Simone Collins: Est

Malcolm Collins: EST is what they went to. Okay. That’s what I was thinking of. Est.

Simone Collins: Marie Cury had $2 daughters. Oh, I was totally wrong. Marie Cury had two daughters, and Eleanor Roosevelt had six children, five sons and one daughter all with one son dying in infancy. That’s really sad.

Malcolm Collins: Well, at at least Eleanor is meeting our prenatal list agenda here, actually.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Good for her. I was totally wrong on that.

Yeah. I, I

Malcolm Collins: and I love when the people are like, Hey, you know, you can’t have a lot of kids as a woman and achieve great things, you know, and it’s like, well, I mean, the women of history would like to disagree with you.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They, you just do it and that’s [00:12:00] it. I, I it’s part of, it’s, it’s somewhat of a bad to pay thing.

You know.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, it’s a, it’s a them thing, right? Like I, I bet they’d even he’d get criticized for putting Eleanor Roosevelt on the list because she had so many kids, you know, doesn’t make a good progressive icon anymore. And I’m sure people are gonna be like, don’t you know about her charity work?

And it’s like, no, I don’t because charity work doesn’t matter. Jed, really speaking charity work doesn’t matter.

In the grand scheme of human history,

Simone Collins: sometimes it worsens problems. That’s one of our bigger. Probably,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. It seems to generally make things worse. Mm-hmm. I, I agree with that. Unless you approach it in a, in a very specific way.

But that’s a whole other conversation. And not, not today’s conversation. Not

Simone Collins: today, no.

So apparently she didn’t even do anything that big with charity. Her big thing was joining the UN, famously ineffective body and promoting the idea of a universal Declaration of Human Rights, which also famously did very little for anyone important. So [00:13:00] apparently, to get on this guy’s list of self-actualized, if you’re a man, you need to invent general relativity If you’re a woman.

You need to FA famous person. That’s, that’s basically the way the world works for these freaking people.

Malcolm Collins: But what you can see here that’s being described, I think it’s very important that around the concept of self-actualization, an alternative form of psychology, and not just an alternative form of psychology, but an alternative school of what psychology is meant to optimize, begin to grow.

Boast was in the public narrative, but also was in the academic institution. Mm-hmm. And this allowed for some branches of like talk therapy to see their goal as moving the individual towards the concept of self-actualization, which again, here, it really matters what that concept is and how it is derived.

Yeah. [00:14:00] It’s the goal of a school of psychology. Because what happened with the urban monoculture is it went and when it was trying to determine what is an individual’s goal in life, it wanted that goal to sound large and sophisticated and try to remove the accusation that it’s just hedonism. And so went to academia, which is like it’s priest cast, right?

And it said, well, who, who studies? Like, what is a life well lived? And it said, well, psychologists do, right? So it’s okay, well what are their various models for what you are optimizing for? And the other schools of psychology don’t have as strong of a singular motivational end point. And so self-actualization became the end point.

The goal of everything was in the urban monoculture. And it began to get worked into a lot of pseudoscientific movements as well as, as, as you’ll see. I, I, I will point out I do not think [00:15:00] self-actualization was ever good. Science. I think that it epitomizes, I mean, the mere fact of how he came up with the concept that he basically looked up famous people who he kind of respected or that he didn’t think that he’d get a lot of pushback on, and then pretended to derive a theory of needs from them when in reality he was just thinking through himself.

Like, if, if you wanna just like blow up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs Stephen Hawkings. Like clearly. Oh, Stephen Hawkings didn’t just live with you know, horrible, debilitating

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Care for most of his productive career. But also his caretaker slash nurse was apparently like very well documented as abusive.

Simone Collins: No. Toward him.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

So just for more clarification, the abuse accusations come against his second wife, not his first wife, and were in part, made by his first wife. And, , they were investigated by [00:16:00] Cambridge Police. He always denied them. They later got a divorce. There have been no clarifications about whether they were real.

Simone Collins: Well, and his sexual needs weren’t being met. And I think he told his wife to go sleep with other people, didn’t he? He sort of, I, I don’t know all of that, but my understanding was he was like, just go, like, I’m, I’m really not gonna hold you to this marriage. ‘cause obviously I can’t keep up my part physically due to this.

So, yeah, I mean, he, he really wasn’t, but, but he was 100% making the absolute most of his mind. The, and this is, that’s where I’m really struggling with this because as soon as I heard about Muscle’s Hierarchy of Needs, I got super excited about it because I contextualized self-actualization as being, having everything else sorted in your life such that you were able to completely live in your prefrontal cortex.

You’re not in your amygdala, you’re not in your hy, you’re like, you know, you’re not,

he’s talking about the life lesson he had. But my, my thought was that you are not. In survival mode, you’re not freaked out about stuff, so you’re able [00:17:00] to just be totally in your prefrontal cortex and just be about ideas and concepts and advancing civilization and inventing and moving towards science.

But that doesn’t seem to be what this is about,

Malcolm Collins: which is No, it’s actually I’m gonna create the best analogy for what the way he actually defines self-actualization. Okay. The closest term I have found to the way that he transformed Nietzsche’s concept is being OTP Clear in Scientology

Simone Collins: being OTP, what.

Malcolm Collins: So it’s, so there’s a status called being clear, which means you have no more thons attached to, oh, one of the highest statuses you can have within Scientology. Okay. And it means that once you have this, and basically you, you, you are no longer burdened by like the problems of this world, and then you get all these magical powers.

And that’s basically the way that self-actualization is defined even by Maslow. It’s like clear out all of these lower states and then you enter a state that is [00:18:00] either almost magical in its conceptualization or just definitionally good without an explanation of how it’s good.

Simone Collins: But isn’t it like, well, I mean, think, think about it this way, right?

But people who are hung up on sex and, and seeking after that, I think, you know, in some way haven’t had their validation or just basic sexual needs met. And so they’re held back because they have basically intrusive thoughts about sex. If people are food insecure, they’ll have intrusive thoughts about.

Food that, that prevent them from being more productive and moving forward. And you could call those Eatons, you could call those whatever you want, but that’s, that’s a thing. And, and I think even same with with, I would argue hedonism just feeling good implies some level of feeling of insufficient physical security so that you, you actively try to seek out physical comfort because you don’t feel like you can get it whenever you need it.

Malcolm Collins: You grabbed onto something really important here before, before we go further, but I, I, I love, this is all stuff I plan to get to later, but I [00:19:00] actually think it’s really good to, to bring it in here. You point out the real challenge, which is are there things that are mentally preventing you from focusing on the bigger concepts in life, a bigger purpose in life?

And I’ll get to a good way to structure this for yourself. But are there things that are blocking you from reaching that point? And it is useful to have a word for talking about those things. The the problem is, is that there are two core ways to approach this. One of them is super toxic and one of them is very useful and healthy.

And the way that he contextualize it automatically rolls into the toxic category. What, which is to say you can either remove all of the things that are blocking you from focusing on. The bigger concepts in life, the bigger questions in life, by literally removing them from your life, right? [00:20:00] By literally never being hungry, never being uncomfortable, never not feeling love, never not having, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Right? Or you can remove them from affecting you by learning to better control your own mind.

Simone Collins: To stop caring.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. To better control what you care about and what you allow to affect you. So, and this isn’t a new concept, but one thing I love about Catholicism and people say, hear that from Malcolm. They’re like, what?

But I, I, I, I do love this is, that many of their sex like the Opus Day being one of the most famous practice various forms of mortification and mortification and, and many like mainstream Catholics will do this. Forms of, of mortification, I think is an incredibly mentally healthy practice if practice correctly.

Mm-hmm. Where they will wear things like bands that are constantly digging into them and causing, or hair

Simone Collins: shirts. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A constant pain throughout the day, which they learn to suppress. And when you [00:21:00] learn to suppress that pain, that then ability can now be repurposed to suppress sexual desires or desires for food.

Indulgence.

Simone Collins: Gary, you’re not gonna be super avoidant about stuff just ‘cause you think you might feel a little bit of pain and discomfort. ‘cause you’re so used to it. It’s the default in your life,

Malcolm Collins: right? You overcome it as somebody like say Stephen Hawkings would right by. Or, or Helen Keller would, or something like that, right?

Like, by learning how to remove its effect on you. Mm-hmm. IE you, you basically learn to make yourself immune to parts of Laslow hierarchy of needs. Mm-hmm. And that is where true and meaningful actualization comes from. If, if, if, if there was a concept of actualization, but conceptualizing actualization of being at the top of this pyramid defaults people to wanting to fill all the stages of the pyramid below that [00:22:00] before they begin to address the, oh.

But I could have just learned to ignore all that stuff.

Simone Collins: Well, and I think, yeah, the, I, I guess, yeah, I, I just see that as a, an insane misinterpretation because. How housing security, food security and sexual security can be endless voids. And I think you actually see this when we see discussions of socialism or human dignity among the left, where there’s been this creep from human dignity involving the right to the pursuit of happiness, for example, right?

The right to the pursuit of these things, to not only do I deserve food, but also I deserve best in class medical care that I don’t pay for and I deserve a TV and I deserve a house of a certain standard. Like there’s just this creep, this hedonic treadmill of like, well, I don’t, I don’t live a life of dignity if I don’t have a smartphone and a flat screen TV [00:23:00] and a nice apartment and, and, and, and, and a trip a year, whatever.

Right? And these are things that Yeah. And you, yeah. This idea that you will ever be. Sas satisfied sexually or food wise? It’s not about that. It’s about reaching the point at which you don’t care anymore. There’s, there’s not like an an amount like you, oh, you just need 200 sex units and then you’ve, you’ve accomplished this wrong of the pyramid, you can move on.

Malcolm Collins: So, you are absolutely correct about this, Simone. And I hope you’re now seeing what I mean when I say the Laszlo’s hierarchy of needs built, the framework, the what it means to have reached, you know, Nirvana or what, what’s it called

enlightenment, that it’s, it’s become sort of enlightenment for progressives, but it is achieved through meeting hedonistic needs underneath it.

Huh? So, even though he, Laszlo would say well, self-actualization is itself not about hedonism maxing. He [00:24:00] basically conceptually set up his framework to lead people down a road of hedonism, maxing before they can achieve this. And not just hedonism mask masking, but sort of self love maxing, right?

Mm-hmm. Kirsha five months ago did a video. I, I just watched this like an hour and a a half and it was really fascinating. And it was titled and I thought it was like a click mate. When I read it, and it was not a clickbait father of seven leaves family to become a child. So what a, a, a, a father who was married and taking care of seven kids left his family to enter the, a polyamorous relationship with another man and woman where he acted as their 10-year-old kid daughter, who the dad also had relations with.

And he would do like, play behavior with their granddaughter and stuff to, because he was their daughter. That was who he really was. And there was an [00:25:00] NPR piece on this like I think it was NPR, that was the voice they were using. It could have been something other than NP, but it sounded like in a high production

Simone Collins: TJ voice.

Malcolm Collins: Hey, I am technically IN TJ Simon, so I get the, the worst. Yeah, but

Simone Collins: you don’t have, you don’t

Malcolm Collins: have

Simone Collins: an IN TJ voice.

Malcolm Collins: Thank

Simone Collins: God.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, so they do this. NPR the people hate my voice, though. The, the internet hates my voice, I think. But I don’t know, and I can’t change it. It’s very unique. But anyway, so they, they have this interview right where they cover him and it’s produced and it ends with like a sappy, like, well, in his new life, he has found love was out judgment, which he just wasn’t able to get from his old community.

You know, there’s

Simone Collins: judgment,

Malcolm Collins: there’s judgment. Well, no, no, no. In this new family where he lives as a child, and, and it was very much like, we hope that, like more of the world can reach a state like this. So there were like other people who see this guy doing this and want to broadcast this as [00:26:00] like an inspirational positive story to the world about how

Simone Collins: Wow.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins: His old community was bigoted against his and, and it’s, it’s clear like the story is, is is really like, it, it shows the degeneracy of the age we live in where his wife tried to like. Humor, his cross-dressing habit, it seems for a long time. Oh. And he just decided as sort of the trans movement came out, oh, I’m not a cross-dresser, I am a woman.

And he would talk about how his daughter would sometimes like, steal his purse or something without realizing it, you know? And he just a, you know, live as a woman sometimes at home or whatever. And eventually he learned that he could be a little and, and go down that path. And if you wanna see other lifestyles, if you wanna get an idea of other people who have like maxis, you can look at our video on Anna Vains Life called The Life of a Ena Byte, I think is what we called it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Funny that we’re talking about Kirsha right now. ‘cause she was the reporter who tried to cancel Kirsha. Oh yeah. Small world. She. Has a, a, a very detailed substack [00:27:00] about her life and trying to find purpose and meaning. And you can really see that her search for purpose is about a search for self validation from a wider community as well as an endless search for hedonism.

And they, they both always end up feeling hollow for her at the end because she, in this search for self, a validation, has come up with a very odd persona of who she really is, in her case, is a giant test

Simone Collins: and a valence. And a valence is a giant test

Malcolm Collins: woman, even though she was born a man. But that she,

Simone Collins: oh, we’re not gonna approach the elephant in the room, that she’s not in giant tests.

That’s the harder thing to solve.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Well, I mean, mean, the bigger problem is she hadn’t even done all of her. She still had male genitalia and she was confused [00:28:00] that the progressives who pretended that they accepted trans people, didn’t want to validate her in the way she wanted to be validated, which was through giving her sexual access to them.

And they didn’t want to give them like, they’re like, yes, we respect you, but I don’t wanna sleep with you. Right. Like, and she. That, that for her was not enough validation, so she could never reach the top of the hierarchy. She needed to basically stop there instead of saying, wait, I have the thoughts in my head of wanting to be X and wanting to be Y.

How do I better suppress these wants? Because these wants are not constructive in terms of what I think a meaningful life is. And then it’s what is a meaningful life? Well, now you’ve moved to self-actualization. As soon as you’ve entered the conversation of what is actually a life well lived, you’ve entered the realm of self-actualization, which can be done right now.

Or, or what meaningful self ization is. But to continue here,

Simone Collins: [00:29:00] actually, just something you said made me think of that line, or there’s actually several lines in the Bible about this, but basically the, the ones in relation to it’s, you don’t need to focus so much on materialism. Just being like what God, God provides for birds.

Like the birds aren’t worried about, I mean, they actually kind of are obsessed with where they’re gonna get their food, but like God provides, you know, focus on what your job is, whatever that’s supposed to be, right? Mm-hmm. I, I’m not remembering the exact lines ‘cause I’m not,

So the quote she’s thinking of is, therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you’ll eat or drink or about your body, what you will wear., Is not life more than food and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds in the air. Do they not sow or reap or store away in barns and yet your heavenly father feeds them?

Are you not much more valuable than they? So do not worry saying, what shall we eat? What shall we drink? What shall we wear? But seek first the kingdom and his righteousness and [00:30:00] all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow. For tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble on its own.

I.

Malcolm Collins: that’s sort of what we’re doing right now.

We’re in a Jesus take that we all moment in our lives. We don’t know where our future income’s gonna come from. I mean, our fab is, is

Simone Collins: fully No, I’m, what I’m saying though is there is a biblical basis for this as well that, that for arguably thousands of years, people handed down. Wisdom has been, hey, don’t get too obsessed about food, shelter, money, sex, focus on serving God, whatever that means for you.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and as interesting as, I almost think that this is an inversion of the Buddhist concept of enlightenment.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that both show

Simone Collins: I disagree. Because the, the Buddhist concept of enlightenment involves letting go of your attachment to things. And I think that the [00:31:00] point of this is I don’t care about the food or the shelter or the sex or the social validation.

And that’s what, that’s what I meant. I thought the pyramid was all

Malcolm Collins: about, I’m talking about laszlo’s contextualization of self-actualization here, whereas the, the Buddhist is trying to fully suppress all outside desires and wants and everything like

Simone Collins: that. Not suppress, let go

Malcolm Collins: say what you want. It’s the same thing.

Make

Simone Collins: it so that those mean No, no, because it’s, it’s like a, it, it’s, it’s, it’s let it, you know, the whole. You will not fear if you’re a mind killer. You let it pass through you and only you remain. That is very like the Buddhist thing, but just take that in. Anything that you feel just duka, like any, like, you know, you, you are not hunger, like hunger pass through you and only, you know, just all take that and apply it to everything.

And that’s Buddhism.

Malcolm Collins: I understand that Buddhists try to say it in a fancy way that makes it seem something fancier than emotional suppression, but what it functionally is because if you [00:32:00] are

Simone Collins: but Malcolm, you’re not emotionally suppressing like some insane sex drive. You, you, you, you did it and, and you slutted it up and now you just don’t care that much anymore.

Malcolm Collins: If you are a Buddhist, okay you are still a human being. You are still feeling hunger. If you are hungry, you have just learned to not allow that emotional pull to make you act on it or to interrupt your other mental processes.

Simone Collins: I don’t know. You

Malcolm Collins: call that whatever you want. You can say, well,

Simone Collins: no, even food too.

Like you used to like invest a lot of time in going out to eat cool meals and stuff, and, and now you eat one meal a day and you’re like, well, like,

Malcolm Collins: right. But that’s, I found out the hack to this. We’re gonna talk about that later. Okay? But the, the, the Buddhist versus the lala’s hierarchy of needs haver, right?

The guy who has everything and the Buddhist who has learned to suppress everything. I think both of them have missed the point, because once you have reached [00:33:00] that state, IE either you have every need that you want fed to you. Or you have reached enlightenment and you no longer are affected by those needs.

The point of reaching those two states should have been the, okay, now that I am not distracted by lower order biological or self-affirming thoughts, I can think about what is a life actually well lived? Okay? And I can construct myself and my lifestyle. Based on what a life actually well lived is. Okay.

And if you’re just sitting alone in a tip, I do not think by most sane people’s standards, that’s actually a life well lived. You have done nothing to contribute to the civilization that bore you and that sacrifices with you because a lot of these monks live off of donations. Right. You, you are living a life that is fundamentally one of the most hedonistic and self satisfactory of any living human because it is a life wholly [00:34:00] dedicated to your own mental state.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Your, your little pet project. That is true. That is kind of messed up that everyone else has to work and give you rice for your little rice bowl just so you can get enlightened. But they don’t have time to get enlightened ‘cause they are too busy surviving and also support you. And what they tell

Malcolm Collins: you is, oh, you drew it in your next life.

You, you serve me in this life.

So

Simone Collins: in your

Malcolm Collins: next life.

Simone Collins: I hadn’t thought about it that way, but that’s, that’s a little. I’m sure they have some profound, pseudo profound, at least answer for that. But

Malcolm Collins: people who have watched our track videos knows, I I, I see Buddhism as an antiviral religion which means that I see it as being a personification of sort of evil on earth.

Simone Collins: Yeah. In other words, you argue that Buddhism wants to genocide sentience like

Malcolm Collins: it does. That is actually it stated goal. I remember I first told you this ‘cause you were raised partially Buddhist. You went to like Buddhist churches and everything like that. Like you were actually, you were raised fully Buddhist and you were like, no, [00:35:00] it doesn’t.

And I was like, yes, it does actually like go read. And then you came back a few days later and I heard you argue that yes it does to somebody. And I was like, wait, when did you change your mind on that? And what was your

Simone Collins: experience? Yeah. I just realized that you just, you were right and then Yeah. But when you heard me arguing, that was at one of our dinner parties in New York City and.

The guy had lived with like zen monasteries for a while. Like he was like quite in it and he was like, oh yeah. I mean, you’re right. It’s just, when you put it that way, it sounds so bad.

Malcolm Collins: It is a genocide of sentient. I can imagine. Nothing worse in all

Simone Collins: creation as

Malcolm Collins: a cult. I have in one of my fictional sci-fi universes, like the Buddhist being the big bad trying to end reality.

You know, and it’s well,

Simone Collins: at least Maslow’s hierarchy of needs doesn’t do that.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think it’s just as bad.

Simone Collins: No, Maslow, so the Buddhist version of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is just like a gun at the top of the pyramid. And like, do it, [00:36:00]

Malcolm Collins: do glass, the planet. I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re actually like anti utilitarians, right?

Like they that is what Buddhism is. It’s anti utilitarianism turned into a religion.

Simone Collins: Negative utilitarianism turned

Malcolm Collins: into, oh, sorry. Negative utilitarianism turned into a religion. It’s David Benatar the religion. Yeah. All existence is suffering, therefore, in existence anyway. Enough of that, we’re gonna really piss off some watchers who haven’t watched our tracks or have gone into this longer.

And I can go into a bunch of quotes from text, but I’m not gonna go eat to here because I know I’m right on this one. In the late 20th century criticisms arose, some argued Maslows model was overly western and individualistic overlooking collectivist cultures where sex, self, self-actualization might involve communal harmony rather than personal achievement.

I love that. Right? Positive psychology in the 1990s and two thousands led by figures like Martin Seligman built on it by inter integrating empirical research on wellbeing. Flow states [00:37:00] from Myla Chi Leah or something, and Eudonic happiness, focusing on purpose and virtue over hedonic pleasure. I am not going to put those dirty forward words in my American tongue, Simone

check or whatever, you know? So anyway positive psychology, I really think is, is the, the version of the psychology movement that grew out of self-actualization. And that was really big in the nineties and two thousands. And a lot of EAs act like it’s this, like great form of psychology or this non-harmful form of psychology.

And it’s, it’s extremely harmful. By the way, before I get further, you’re wondering about like my ultimate hack to the suppression of. Thoughts and needs while also, you know, building your life into something where you are working towards the future and working almost, I think as hard as, as, as you can towards building a better future for humanity.

I mean,

Simone Collins: I, and I can, I can vouch for that. Malcolm works is, he’s never worked harder. I mean, he’s, he was from the day I met him, [00:38:00] the hardest working person I ever met.

Malcolm Collins: You. You too. That’s why I wanted to marry you. I was like,

Simone Collins: this is what I’m

Malcolm Collins: in for.

Simone Collins: And you work harder today than you have ever worked since the day I met you, which is insane.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, yes. Self. So, so how, how, what’s my hack? O opioid agonist.

Simone Collins: Oh, just naltrexone. I should figured.

Malcolm Collins: I’m pretty much always on naltrexone. The, so for people who don’t know, naltrexone is an opioid agonist, which blocks the pleasure pathways that you feel from o opioid pathways, right?

Which are caused by things like say, Facebook, scrolling, gambling other addictive behavior patterns. I originally started taking it to lower my drinking and it was very effective at that. Then I realized that it basically had a positive effect on almost everything in my life. Because like I haven’t checked Facebook in like a year, years at this point.

I, I made a post recently, like an update on my life, but I haven’t checked Facebook in years.

Simone Collins: And I think I haven’t, I have a [00:39:00] theory that this might also have a genetic basis. ‘cause I feel like my life. Is what Malcolm describes, he feels like on Naltrexone. He’s like, I just don’t like, because I never understood what, what it was like to feel any sort of addictive response to things.

Malcolm Collins: And then people will be like, well, you didn’t really master those, those I, you know, impulsive emotions, right? You used something else. And it’s like, yes, but hold on, hold on, because I’m human. That has always been an option. Yeah. This is like saying the, the Europeans didn’t really beat the Native Americans.

They shot them with superior technology. It’s like, well, the point was winning the, the point of shutting down these emotions, right? Like these, I impulsive or intrusive thoughts was so that I could focus on structuring my life to be one that well, from my perspective, what I think matters, and we’ll get to how to determine this for yourself, that contributed to human civilization.

That’s all I cared [00:40:00] about. Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I didn’t care about the individual like, like winning those individual battles was pointless to me. I, I, I, I just wanted it gone so I could focus on work the bigger thing. Yeah. And from my perspective, you are being masturbatory and self-indulgent by engaging in a battle that you don’t have to engage in.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You are the person who, when a forklift is right there insists on lifting the heavy boxes yourself. Even somebody else is saying, well, that’ll take you four times as long. Just use the forklift.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Like. You’re not better for doing that. You’re a dumb butt who is had a, and this is actually an example of your self vision being so, intrusive that it b, living a life without right?

Because wiz, at that time that you spent lifting those boxes rather than using the forklift, you were [00:41:00] unable to educate yourself to learn more about the world, develop a better the world, or act the way that directly contributed to human civilization. You specifically made a decision to told your self image over things of greater value which shows that you are a slave to that.

A note here, I’m not putting myself out here as like a master of I mean, I think I’m uniquely good. I’ve, I’ve done a lot with my life. Like you, you, you and I have so far. I mean. Five kids, five books run major companies, degree graduate degrees from Stanford and Cambridge. A lot of people, CEOs of a company that pulled in 70 million a year at one point.

That’s, that’s pretty big. Oh, yeah. We started the prenatals movement. That was big. Our podcast is doing well enough. I, I mean, I hope we continue to grow but you know, I’ve, I I, I’ve done a lot in the time that I’ve had, and it’s because I’ve been able to allow the, the things that distract me to distract me [00:42:00] less than they otherwise might.

But there is nothing less masturbatory about playing video games for a bit every night than there is for taking extra time doing something, quote unquote yourself, rather than automating it. I’m, but to continue here, what are the the five levels, the original levels of laszlo’s hierarchy needs?

So we can sort of talk about this theory and, and, and break down more why it sucks.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Wait, let me, let me see. Okay. I think it’s food and shelter, safety, sex, social approval, and then self-actualization. Did I get it right? What’s

Malcolm Collins: really funny here is you got love and belonging confused with sex, but I think that the progressive urban monoculture has morphed it into sex.

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: And so, at the bottom he has physiological leads. Okay. The most basic requirements for survival, these include air, water, food, shelter, sleep, closing, and reproduction. As essential for species.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. We are gonna. No,

Malcolm Collins: invert the [00:43:00] pyramid, have those things in need, nothing else. And I loved it from the very beginning.

He made. Reproduction. The bottom level need sex is a bottom level need for him. Right. Which I think is very interesting in terms of how this influenced later fields of psychology in the urban monoculture. Safety needs. Once physiological needs are met, people seek security and stability examples, personal safety, financial security, job saving health, property, and protection from harm or chaos.

That’s one I just think is pure stupid. You can always imagine some threat to you. E everybody knows, you know that the trans person who’s screaming about how when somebody says We shouldn’t give we, we, we shouldn’t be gender transitioning a 7-year-old. And they’re like, how could you say that? You’re gonna kill me.

You’re gonna genocide everybody like me. It’s like, no. I was just like, you know, maybe we shouldn’t be doing this to seven year olds. It’s ‘cause [00:44:00] they’re seven. You know, mean you wanna kill me. So safety, and this is important about safety and I, I, I think you know, a good book on this is why zebras get ulcers or don’t get ulcers.

Sorry, why zebras don’t get alls where Yeah. He basically points out,

Simone Collins: but Doc Robert list, he’s wonderful. Wait,

Malcolm Collins: you’re so smart, Simone. Anyway he basically points out that,

Simone Collins: no, no, sorry, it’s Robert Polsky. I’m sorry,

Malcolm Collins: Robert

Simone Collins: Polsky. He’s the, the health guy. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That a zebra in, in, in, in nature has a series of, of biological mechanisms that puts their nervous system into a, an alternate state and a lot of their biology into an alternate state when they think their life is existentially at, at risk when they see a lion, for example.

Right. And so they freak out when they see the lion.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And you as a human have a problem. Your higher cognitive ability has given you the ability to imagine that your life is at risk.

Simone Collins: Yes, we can make [00:45:00] synthetic lions and then we are constantly subject to synthetic lions, whereas a zebra is only gonna have the lion reaction when there’s just an actual lion there.

Malcolm Collins: So that lion reaction, if you utilize that to motivate. So for example, if you utilize that, you have an existentially important test coming up to motivate yourself to focus on that test, and you genuinely believe this to be existential to you, and you allow that to put you in this alternate neurological state.

Yeah. Who will be less good at retaining information and everything like that.

Simone Collins: Right. This is one thing. People who are addicted to blue sky or X or whatever your social media platform is, especially ven, a lot of rage on it. Are putting their health at so much risk because they’re just Oh, absolutely.

Choosing to get enraged by this. And they’re just, oh, the years they’re shaving off their lives. No, I think there are ways to do it, right? Some people just scroll X and just chuckle incessantly. We’ve, we do that, but that’s rare. Actual

Malcolm Collins: looks like.

Simone Collins: [00:46:00] Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Or a meaningful form of it is you have existential tests coming up and instead of letting a fear of the existential nature of the test be what drives you to study, you are clear minded enough to suppress other needs that you may have in that moment and say, no, I just need to focus on this because it is more important than these other needs I may feel in the moment.

Mm-hmm. This is the area physiological needs. I think learning to suppress those can be indulgent. You feel physiological needs for a reason often. And the main physiological need that I would say that people should learn to suppress at times is arousal. Because a lot of people feel arousal for a lot of things that just aren’t particularly important to serving the need that arousal originally felt, which was getting you to have children.

Right? Yeah. As I said, you should think of arousal as saying you should impregnate that. And if the thing isn’t impregnating, you’re like, oh, you’re, you’re not useful to me right now in this moment. Right. You know, this is not a useful, this is not serving the purpose. It evolved to serve. [00:47:00] Yeah. So, safety needs completely negative right Next.

Love and belonging needs also called social needs. The need for interpersonal relationships and a sense of connection is include intimate relationships, family bonds, a sense of. Belonging to a group affection and feeling accepted by others. This is again, I think, completely toxic. And I think that this is really who needs being bundled as one.

One is having other people accept you the way you accept yourself or see yourself. This is where the trans person says, I want them to accept me as a woman. ‘cause that’s the way I see myself. Or the guy who thinks that he’s a, a 10-year-old child saying, I want them to accept me and my community and my family and my kids to accept me as a 10-year-old child because that’s the way I see and and conceptualize myself.

Right? It can be taken to mean that, and that’s just obviously toxic to, to even on face value. But there’s otherwise saying conservatives that will say, [00:48:00] Hey, well at the very least you should learn to, you know, you should, you should strive for acceptance from your community and family and everything like that.

Where I would say no, not of it is if it interferes with larger, more important goals for yourself. Yeah. Time spent with family and masturbating those needs is no less removing you from either self-improvement through, through education, through whatever you need to improve your ability to act on the world or directly acting on the world to attempt to make the world better.

It is, it is removing you from that. And as like Simone and I have, I think a very healthy relationship and yet we don’t interact that much outside of these recordings because. Our interactions are fundamentally indulgent. Be they sexual interactions or be they romantic interactions or love interactions or anything like that, right?

So, and I think [00:49:00] everybody fun psychologically they cognize it, right? You know? I, I think that you have a duty as far as you have a duty to attempt to help your partner meet the needs that they cannot suppress. That is the need for belonging and acceptance and arousal. But you should keep in mind that if you over meet those needs, you functionally hurt their ability to help their wider suppression system.

You go in there and you say. I am gonna make sure that you feel completely accepted with whoever you are. I don’t think anyone should ever feel that way in a relationship. I know that I can disappoint Simone by not living up to her expectations of me. And that is a good thing. That is healthy in a relationship.

There is nothing more hateful. A person could say to their partner than, I love you as you are, and I will always love you unconditionally. Even to a [00:50:00] child. What if that child becomes a serial killer or something? Right? Like, that’s a, that’s a messed up thing to, to say to somebody, right? Like the, those people who are like, well, my son would never do this.

They then just deny the person that they created and raised thought. Simone, before I go further,

Simone Collins: I agree with you. Sorry, I had muted myself. ‘cause Tex is singing.

Malcolm Collins: And then esteem needs. He then divides this into two parts, esteem, confidence, achievements, independence, and respect for oneself. This is completely toxic. It is not something that you should strive for at all. Either you accept yourself as somebody who is attempting to live a worthwhile life, or you do not.

You do not. Like if you wanna understand our wider pH, like if you’re like, oh, this philosophy that they’re laying out here sounds like a worldview, I’d like to understand better read our book or listen to our audio book, the Pragmatist Guide to Life, or we lay out an alternate way to live, and I’ll go over the [00:51:00] basics of that in just a second.

But, confidence, achievements, independence, respect for oneself, right? If one of my kids can achieve more for the world while they live under our roof. That does not lessen the work that they did while we helped them use the tools that you were born with and had access to do not. Because if you, if you do the opposite and you allow those tools to say, oh, I don’t really have independence because I’m living off of money I inherited or something like that, which we are not people who know this about us.

We are definitely not all of the money my had family had got stolen. But, and it’s very well documented in court records. You can look this up, I think it’s even on our Wikipedia. But if you are a person living off of that and you allow yourself to feel lesser and then do all this indulgent charity giving and everything like that, as opposed to to try to make yourself feel like, oh, I’m a good person.

As opposed to say, no, no, no, no, [00:52:00] no, no. What role do I need to serve within civilization? What is the optimal role for myself? Every wasted dollar is something you spent on a form of mental masturbation. But this also comes of respect for yourself. You don’t need to work on respect for yourself. Be somebody worthy of respecting.

Once you develop a world model about a good way to live in, a good thing to be you don’t need to worry about respect for yourself because you know, if you have suppressed masturbatory desires, right, that you are achieving through, through your actions or at least attempting to best you can.

Something meaningful in civilization. Somebody may ask me, Malcolm, if you didn’t have kids, what would you be doing with your life? You know, what would you be focused on in your life? And it’s like the same stuff. I’d just be less effective at it, but it wouldn’t make me a. Necessarily a lesser person or have less respect for myself because I knew I was [00:53:00] acting on the best I could with what I had access to in my biology.

And keep in mind, your biology can include things like genetic predilections for addictions and stuff like that. You just have to work on it as best you can to live the most productive life you can. And then the second category here is respect from others. Status recognition, prestige, strengths, people seek accomplishment, mastery and appreciation here.

People do not really seek respect from others. What people seek from others is they want other people to see and think of them the way that they see and think of themselves. If you have respect from others, but it’s through an archetype or a caricature. And we know this ‘cause we have a lot of very famous friends that you don’t see as authentic to the way you want to be perceived or to yourself.

You often see the fame as a noose around your neck. And you [00:54:00] will become annoyed by your fans, right? Because they don’t, they don’t conceptualize you the way you wish to be conceptualized. And you see this of a lot of famous actors and musicians and stuff like this, and they end up like blowing out.

Like they should have everything they need, right? By Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, and yet they seem to be the people most likely to crash out. Why are they the most likely to crash out if Maslow’s hierarchy of needs? That’s actually a good way to contextualize what you need from life. Thoughts on that before we go further?

Simone Collins: I agree. I think you see enough from people whose needs should technically be met per the pyramid that are not, clearly not thriving and clearly not working on whatever it is you expect them to be working on. Having those other mets being sorry, needs to be met. And again, I think a, a lot of this has to do with the fact that none of those things lower on the pyramid by modern standards, I think can be met.[00:55:00]

Malcolm Collins: So, and I, and I think that you see this even when you look at people who you have met and, and think about mental stability, right? The people who you know, who have. Tons of wealth, maybe tons of sexual access tons of, you know, et cetera. Like the movie star types. Do they seem more mentally healthy and disciplined to you in terms of their like on their deathbed satisfaction with your life?

Or think of your average, you know, person who know who’s like, say opus day or whatever. Who’s actually going through these mortification rituals, everything like that, attempting to learn self-discipline. Do they not seem more, everybody knows that they’re happier and better off, and not just happier, but happier in the way that anybody wants to be.

Right? Yeah. Like the, the only true happiness you will ever feel is sacrificing for a goal that you have genuinely thought through and genuinely care about.

Simone Collins: Well, and that’s why in general, people who have four plus kids strike me. As among those [00:56:00] most self-actualized people. They’ve decided that something that isn’t easy is important to them.

They are pursuing it effectively, and they feel a great sense of contentment and alignment as a result of that. It’s one of the reasons why this story of this father of seven is so shocking to me, because normally when someone goes through the great difficulty of having in raising seven children, you know, they, they, they clearly are expressing that they value children and they are very involved in raising those children and feeling pretty aligned and good and contented with that.

So it’s so odd to me this case.

Yeah.

But every, every story is complicated, so who knows? You know, and, and sometimes people have a, a mini stroke and get brain damage or change significantly in terms of their personality, and no one realizes it, you know, they have a tumor growing and their, their personality totally changes.

And I, I wouldn’t totally put it past, unless this is behavior that is long existed.

Malcolm Collins: [00:57:00] So later developments and expansion. So he develop, developed some few extra parts to the chart in his later years if you

Simone Collins: really, oh, he had

Malcolm Collins: a cognitive needs desire for knowing, understanding, curiosity and explanation.

This is the one good thing. I think he has these.

Simone Collins: See, I just thought that was part of self actual, I thought that was self-actualization.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, you need that before self-actualization apparently. So next year aesthetic needs appreciation of beauty, balance, form, and symmetry. No,

Simone Collins: that just sounds like a sensitivity.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And transcendence needs the highest level involving helping others achieve self-actualization. He’s directly borrowing from Buddhism here. Peak experiences beyond the self spirituality and connection to something greater eg. Humanity, nature of the universe. The shift,

Simone Collins: I don’t know, this sounds like the, the life coach problem where.

You know, when, when, when you have a life coach, the only thing you ever wanna be is a life coach.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That’s where all new life coaches come from. Somebody was working with a life coach and so the life coach tell them, oh, well you wanna be a life coach, [00:58:00] because that’s what they thought was a good life, you know?

Simone Collins: Well, and typically the advice you get from people gets you to where they are. And, you know, advice from a life coach is gonna get you to become a life coach.

Malcolm Collins: So he views this as a shifted focus from pure self-fulfillment to selflessness. Mm-hmm. Which again, I see as just comical. Like, come on, you’re either living a productive life or you’re not.

Right. And part of that productive life can help be helping other people break out. I mean, that was the first thing that we did when I was like, I wanna do something like purely. To help the world. The, the big early project we had was the Pragmatist Guide to Life in the, in the, in the Moral and Philosophical framework laid out in that and that framework.

If you’re unfamiliar with it, I’m gonna briefly go over it. We’re unfortunately gonna have to cut this episode in half because it is too long at this point. Mm-hmm. We haven’t even got into the mic stuff.

Simone Collins: What? There’s, oh my gosh. Wow. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: That just easily breaks into self-actualization versus the Uber minch.

So. I want to quickly talk here about the Pragma Guide of Life. Basically, we say that you [00:59:00] first need to develop a framework for how you determine what is true in the world, in, in reality because it is getting increasingly harder. And so you have a framework of sources of truth and how those sources interact with each other.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Than you use that source of truth to build up a sort of tree of beliefs about how the world works with metaphysical stuff sort of lower on that tree. And, and if you break something lower on the tree, it breaks everything further down the tree of your beliefs. And we also go over how to build what you think is true.

Mm-hmm. Like a good example is because a lot of people are like, well, I just trust academics and everyone knows that you can’t just trust academics anymore. And somebody’s like, well, I just trust. The church and it’s like, well, you know, historically the church has you know, put out specific perceptions of God and, and its own religious framework that has evolved since they have, have gone out.

So, you know, some level of, even if you’re, and like the most conservative, like Catholic group, even, even they know that through the various [01:00:00] councils things have evolved over time. Mm-hmm. Right. So, you know, you, you. You have some more, more internal responsibility to decide things by yourself. And we go over like how you can do that.

Like an easy explanation here is if an organization puts out information that is counter to their goals, it is more likely to be true. Right. Like if an academic puts out information that makes and, and they don’t have a long history of like anti-trans research or something like that, that, that makes transness look like a bad idea for kids you can be like, oh, that’s, that’s more likely to be true.

Or if a oil form puts out stuff that makes it looked like you know, oil is actually damaging to the environment, you could be like, well, maybe they have some underlying, they’re trying to create barriers to entry for small players or something. But it’s, it’s probably more likely to be true. Yeah.

If, if somebody who is historically been critical of, of gender [01:01:00] transition puts out something saying it’s not that bad, you can be more likely to trust that. Right? So there’s, there’s things that you can build here, and then we say once you have this framework for understanding reality, then you need to determine for yourself what your objective function is sort of like what a utility function is for computers, but just to say the weighted mix of things that you are attempting to maximize was your life. Like you, you, you likely want some level of hedonism you know, just in case you’re wrong about everything else.

But then you want like a multiplier on like how maybe helping others feel good if, if that’s something you think of as having value. I do not. Or building up human civilization or and we go through in that book all with various dumb things you may choose like, like if it’s one of the reasons why hedonism is such a dumb thing to maximize in yourself or others is the things that make us feel good.

We only feel because our ancestors who felt them had more surviving offspring. They’re not things of intrinsic good. Right. And this is one of the core reasons I see negative utilitarianism as so. Stupid. [01:02:00] If you were programmed to feel something else like suppose you were programmed to feel, and some humans are actually programmed to feel this because they, there’s weird like poop fetishes to think that rubbing poop on your face like that makes you feel good, right?

Is that an intrinsically good act now? Because of course not. It’s ridiculous, right? Like, that is not an a, a barometer for any form of, of, of objective goodness was in our reality.

Simone Collins: Right?

Malcolm Collins: Which is one of the reasons why all of these biological, all of these, you know, we, we talk about martyrdom of man has a very good way of put this to escape, you know, our fore footed ancestry.

All of these bestial desires and hallucinations, malformations of our world perspective created by this evolved site of us. Everything done based on that is definitionally evil. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. [01:03:00]

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you, Simone. I love

Simone Collins: you too.

Malcolm Collins: And you are a great wife and I think are a natural zen master of this, but I think it’s ‘cause you’ve got like naltrexone in your vein, your opioid pathway is like, basically don’t work.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and we know this too, that it, I, we suspect it’s genetic because my dad just says that he like, just did all the drugs.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins: he’s, yeah, but I never get

Malcolm Collins: addicted to any of them. And

Simone Collins: it’s like, yeah. And he would, you know, he’d like take up smoking on, on trips and stuff and then come back and just not smoke anymore.

Like just, he’s literally, I can stop anything whenever I want to. And also whenever I drink, I just get drunk like nothing else happens. And I wonder what it is that other people experience that I’m missing when I scroll. I just see stuff. I, I really wanna know what it feels

Malcolm Collins: like. I will describe it as being closest to what MSG tastes like.

That is sparkles, the closest other sensation that I can describe as [01:04:00] to what the extra feel on top of drinking feels like that.

Simone Collins: So addiction is the umami of, of emotions.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. It’s the umami of emotions.

Simone Collins: Delicious. It’s

Malcolm Collins: just that, it’s that enhancer.

Simone Collins: Oh. Of all the

Malcolm Collins: other emotions.

Simone Collins: Salt, salt of emotions.

Gosh, wow.

Imagine living my life. A life of food with no salt. Mommy. No.

Malcolm Collins: Mommy isn’t just salt.

Simone Collins: No, it’s salt and fat basically, I think. But it

Malcolm Collins: enhances the way you perceive other flavors.

Simone Collins: Yeah. By the way, did you know there’s this, this weird spoon that was invented in Japan. It uses like some kind of ionizer or something else that you can, you can consume low sodium products, but when you eat off of the spoon, I think it uses some kind of electrical current.

It’s so, it’s so Japan. You, it, it, it enables you to taste more of the salt. So you’re eating a fraction of the amount of sodium, but you’re getting the same sodium taste.

Malcolm Collins: Japanese got some cool

Simone Collins: [01:05:00] tech. I’ll tell you what. Right, and it, and it’s not some kind of, it’s not like the stupid, you put a scent cartridge in your water bottle products that you get from a YouTube influencer.

It is actually, no, you are tasting the salt. It just sounds so cool. But yeah,

Malcolm Collins: so I love that. By the way, another fun fact I learned that I didn’t know, and this was from that SIA video on the guy who wanted to be 10.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: The original trans child influencer, the one who they, they realized that he, he was the wrong gender ed.

I think it was three or four. And then they transitioned him or started him on you know, puberty blockers in transition at seven, and who was on the cover of National Geographic, like they did a full cover story on him. When was this in did all of the news rounds in nineties? It was in nineties, about 10 years ago.

Okay. Anyway, or maybe like six years ago or seven years ago. Anyway, they that, that individual now says that becoming trans ruin their lives and they longer trans, they identify as what is it, bigender or whatever, [01:06:00] like,

Simone Collins: agender.

Malcolm Collins: It multi, multi-gender, whatever it is that people, the, the, I can’t remember

Simone Collins: the attack helicopter Octavian would 100% identify as a attack helicopter erotically.

Malcolm Collins: You asked him. This was so funny. So Simone asks him like, do you want to identify like there’s some people who think you can identify as a helicopter? Oh, no. No. It wasn’t that. It was, it was, do you wanna marry a helicopter? That’s what you asked him.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I was joking. I was joking. I was like, if you like helicopters so much, why don’t you just marry one and.

He was like, regret, can’t marry a helicopter. And I was just thrilled to hear him say such a reasonable thing. And he is like, the ring would fly right off and no, no. Now

Malcolm Collins: you’re like, is this how you determine whether or not something is,

Simone Collins: can you put a ring on it then it’s marryable.

Malcolm Collins: No, I actually really like this interpretation because he has said the point of merit in his mind.

The point of marriage is putting a ring on something and if you can’t put a ring on something, you shouldn’t marry it. Whereas I can

Simone Collins: [01:07:00] put a ring on a squirrel’s tail though. I could, I could put a ring

Malcolm Collins: on a, but Simone, the point I’m making here,

Simone Collins: okay,

Malcolm Collins: is that the point of marriage is not putting a ring on somebody’s finger.

It’s. Getting married to somebody you can impregnate and have children whiz to start a family whiz. Well,

Simone Collins: that’s not where he is right now with the

Malcolm Collins: whole

Simone Collins: concept.

Malcolm Collins: Obviously he’s a child, but once he understands that the point of marriage isn’t the ring, but impregnation,

Simone Collins: okay, then he’d be like, well, I can’t have a child with this person, therefore I won’t marry them.

I see.

Malcolm Collins: And I, and somebody would be like, what? You think that somebody who you know, is, is, is infertile, isn’t worthy of marriage? And it’s like, if my kid asked me, should I marry this person? They’re perfect for me in every other way, but they’re infertile. And there isn’t another way to have kids, like through surrogacy or through artificial wombs, I would say Absolutely.

No, don’t marry them. And they’d be like, what did they not deserve marriage? Did they not deserve happiness? And I’m like, no, they can marry somebody else who’s infertile. Right? Like they don’t need to waste the life of a [01:08:00] fertile person on their own personal indulgence. And if they were living a purposeful life of sacrifice, they would understand that.

And so I, that’s an offensive thing to say, but it’s, it’s something that, yeah, I absolutely, that is the point of a marriage.

Simone Collins: I was infertile, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: Well, we made you fertile.

Simone Collins: We powered through it. That’s the point.

Malcolm Collins: You, you made yourself fertile through technology again, not cheating.

Simone Collins: Thank goodness. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You’ve, you’ve done all of the drugs, all of the extra, you bring every kid into this world with more sacrifice than I’d think just about any other woman. When bringing a child into the world and, and, and through the,

Simone Collins: no. A lot of people just, just die. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think I would rather have, I had to go through what you were going through and I just live for hedonism.

You haven’t seen the drug. She has to take a needle that’s like this long into her butt [01:09:00] every single day for months with every kid that we have. Like it is, I, I couldn’t even, I, I look at it and I couldn’t even push it in for her. It is so gruesome. It’s like you look at it and you’re like, how does that not go through the bone?

Simone Collins: No, no. The first time I had to do a needle like that, both Malcolm and I were like, especially ‘cause I’m, I’m on the thinner side, it’s going to hit my hip bone. There’s no way. This is not gonna hit my hip bone. I, I still don’t know where it goes. It’s honestly, I, I’m like, I don’t know how this works, but it works.

You

Malcolm Collins: are s so

Simone Collins: tough and permanent scarring. You can actually see the permanent scarring from needles. But I mean, you know, we’re it that they’re. It’s such a nice, like we have other friends who have permanent scarring because they have chronic diseases that have, you know, involved so many, so many blood draws and so many other things.

I, I, I would much rather have permanent scarring from needles due to trying to create new life rather than fighting for my own. You know what I mean? So it’s, it’s a very lucky place to be. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: What what a what a [01:10:00] what a profound thing to say, Simone. You are a, a priestess of

Simone Collins: It’s not profound. I’m lucky.

It’s not a profound thing like

this. You were just born, enlightened. I

Malcolm Collins: love it.

Simone Collins: No,

Malcolm Collins: it’s

Simone Collins: true. True. No, I’m lucky that I’m not chronically ill and fighting for my life. And so were you. We should enjoy it while it lasts. It is not going to. I’m gonna get cancer for sure. I hope there’s better treatments for when it hits.

Ooh, I love new home. I love you too. Happy

Malcolm Collins: spectacular day.

Simone Collins: Bye

Malcolm Collins: bye.

No, we can do your episode next, or we could try doing the second part of this episode. Next. Let’s do your episode.

Simone Collins: Okay, great. . And I don’t know if you’ve been downstairs, but since Octavian finished his mandatory lessons of the day, he decided he didn’t wanna fly his RC helicopter. He wanted to set up an elaborate obstacle course for it. And it is elaborate. There’s when you go down you’ll see [01:11:00] it’s a whole thing. It’s a whole thing.

And also when we went down, there was some kind of bird, I think some kind of finch flying through our kitchen and living room. And I think they came in through the same, same part of our house that the other dead birds that used to be in that cabinet where the bunk beds now are, would end up. So I think I sufficiently directed him out of the house or her, but I don’t know.

So there might,

Malcolm Collins: how, how is the comments today in the China video?

Simone Collins: People we’re glad that we were covering it, broadly speaking, because it’s not really being discussed.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, if we end up breaking that story and it turns out to be accurate, which I think all the evidence shows that it is right now before, like the New York Times and the mainstream media breaks it.

Mm-hmm. Oh my God. We deserve so much credit for that. The internet, I deserve internet points. I don’t know what those look like. [01:12:00] Maybe another meme, maybe another Know Your Meme page. I think they’ve integrated all of our know your mean pages. And very sadly, and I’d love if one of our fans fix this because we don’t edit our own Wikipedia page, but they took away the picture on our Wikipedia page.

Simone Collins: It was a picture that your late mother took. How dare they, this, this merch was merch your memory. Her efforts? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I’m sure somebody was like, well, it’s technically not whatever license. I, I don’t know how to give a picture with the right license.

Simone Collins: Oh, that’s true. Yeah. It’s it’s not in Wikimedia comments.

If we can, we can literally just contribute images to Wikimedia comments if you want me to.

Malcolm Collins: I think that’s a good idea. Just dump a bunch of images in and then somebody who wants to use some can

Okay.

Malcolm Collins: That are like ours, so.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Because Yeah, otherwise it could be copyright infringement. And technically that was, I guess, copyright infringement of your late mother’s work.

I’m not really sure how that, that works when someone dies. But anyway

Malcolm Collins: I mean, all our videos are free for public [01:13:00] use. Like if anybody wants to like, cut up or titch our videos, we would never complain.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But they’re not published online as, for example, creative Commons. Mm-hmm. That used to be one of the major.

Nonprofits I would donate to. I really like creative comments.

Malcolm Collins: Here’s a good idea. Yeah. We put our pictures on the prenatal list website under a Creative Commons license. Mm. So that anybody who wants to take them from there and use them can. So just very clearly put the prenatal list website under a creative comments

license.

Simone Collins: Honestly, I mean, for, except I think Wiki Wikipedia is one of the few exceptions now because of ai, it kind of doesn’t matter anymore. You know, things like licenses of that sort are absurd. People shouldn’t waste time thinking about that. But I, yeah, I will, I will therefore handle that. One of the most funny comments on what’s going on with ccp Oh.

In terms of substantive and smart one, one of our collective friends also who listens to the podcast was saying they don’t think [01:14:00] it was an attempted coup. They think that Xi Jinping is actually trying to prepare the, the country for war. And. Actual war and, and that has this person really nervous, but he doesn’t think it was a coup.

He just thinks that she is like doing everything. But

Malcolm Collins: she arrested the only two sitting members of the council other than himself and

Simone Collins: who were opposed to war with Taiwan. He’s like, let’s get it done. We’re doing this. You don’t wanna do it. You’re out.

Malcolm Collins: And their entire families, this wasn’t

Simone Collins: like a, you need to, yeah, if you need to remove all impediments to war with Taiwan and you’re ready to go, I, I could see a world in which that makes sense.

This person also pointed out just the, the sheer and intense opacity of the CCP and its inner workings, which leads to rampant conspiracy theories. So to a certain extent, anyone’s guess is as best as good as anyone else’s because.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t think that’s true either. No, not anyone’s guess is as good as [01:15:00] anyone else’s.

There are people who have in the past made predictions about China’s future actions, and those predictions have turned out to be accurate or made predictions about what was happening, and then later we learned that that stuff was actually happening.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That’s why I rely on a commentary like Lay’s Real Talk because she is one of those people for

me.

Simone Collins: Oh, that’s funny. This this same person was like, I hate Lay’s Real talk. Just go back and watch her various predictions she’s made and see how those play out. That was exactly his argument against her analysis actually.

By the way, if you had been watching laser real talk and her predictions, you would know all the rumors leading up to the various assassination attempts against these generals and against she, , was predicting that these generals would be ousted. Dramatically and in a very high profile way, which is exactly what happened, and in a higher profile way than any, even like confirmed Insurrectionists had been in, out denounced in terms of how quickly and loudly they [01:16:00] were denounced after their arrest and the arrest of their entire families.

, So the point being here is. You would’ve seen this coming, if you had been watching her. You would not have seen this coming, if you had been watching mainstream news. And we do know that this happened, and it was a complete reversal of things. So this idea of like, oh, she doesn’t predict it clearly, she does have some sort of insider knowledge of what’s going on.

And I love that some of the people who are just so brain cuted on China are like, no, it’s not a major sign that every single major general, other than she and the person arresting them, were arrested in the CCPs, , military, that’s, that’s not a sign of a major turnover in how the government works. And everyone who can actually, you know, arrest or enforce power was removed in a very short period, and that was consolidated.

, I, I think it just shows the, the sheer levels of denialism. That these people will undertake to believe that the CCP is not undergoing a severe [01:17:00] restructuring right now.

Simone Collins: So,

Hmm.

Yeah. The, the, the funny comment that I got actually came from Octavian, who saw the title card for the thing, the Bleeding, Winnie the Pooh.

And as we’ve not read Winnie the Pooh books to him or anything like that, they’re just not very substantive or interesting in my opinion. He didn’t know who Winnie the Pooh was. And he was like, who is that? Because it’s, you know, more interesting than all the faces we put on our podcast normally. And I said, it’s Winnie the Pooh.

And he suddenly looked very, very disturbed. Not because this plush bear was bleeding, but because some horrible person decided to name a bear Poh. And he was like, I feel very bad for the bear. I I’m going to give the bear a new name. Now he’s just like on a whole campaign of we need save this poor His bear has been named after Poh, mistreated egregiously.

Who, who could do [01:18:00] that? Which I get actually especially ‘cause kids are all about poo jokes. How on earth did it work that I guess kids of, of, of that time when those books first were written were not as vulgar as the kids today, they would never have thought that such a term was, maybe they had a different word for excrement, for fecal matter.

I don’t know. Should look that up. Anyway, sorry. Distracting from this.

Speaker 2: Rock. Oh wait. And this is going to be a floor for it. Oh it is? Yeah. Why can it put so big? Well, that makes a lot. Oh, this is a floor for it. You’re right. Look at that. Yeah, look at that. We’re making the capsule. Wow. Now we’re making the wow. Yeah. Oh really? Yeah. Look. What are they? Hey mommy. [01:19:00] Yeah. Ooh. Upon upon the green team and the talent team’s, the black team, what are they?

Speaker 4: The coolest that I, the greenest, the black team. Oh, no. Like the other great guys. I guess.

Speaker 3: Okay guys, where is this? Ah, here we go. Another floor. Oh, thank you, avian. Did you find all the floors for me? Yeah.

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