Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive into the viral controversy surrounding Tylenol, pregnancy, and autism. From RFK’s claims to TikTok trends, they break down the science, the media reactions, and the real risks behind the headlines. The discussion covers medical studies, social media challenges, political polarization, and personal stories about pregnancy and autism. Whether you’re a parent, skeptic, or just curious about the latest health debates, this episode offers a nuanced, evidence-based perspective.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be going over something that I have found really fascinating, which is both RFK, saying that, you know, Tylenol and pseudomona could lead to autism or other birth complications.

And then more interesting the left’s reaction to it for me where there have been viral trends of women just taking lots of Tylenol, I can’t even TikTok, and there was one report of a death from this and we’ll get over whether that report is likely accurate. I hope it’s

not,

I think it’s plausibly accurate.

I think over 50% chance that it’s accurate. And we’ll do, I mean a lot of

Simone Collins: people overdose on Tylenol. All the time anyway, so, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well you don’t know when you’re trying to get like TikTok points or something like that. I mean, these other women who are doing this and there have been thousands of videos of women doing this that are getting millions of views.

Right. I hope they’re just

Simone Collins: drinking something fake [00:01:00] out of Tylenol bottles or, or taking fake pills. They’re taking.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they’re,

Simone Collins: yeah. May I, I hope they’re taking, you know, like your pills.

Speaker: I got a call, very frantic call at four o’clock in the morning from a husband whose wife is now dying of liver failure on a ventilator in an ICU, um, because she was trying to prove that Tylenol doesn’t cause autism because of, um. What Trump said on the news, mind you, that’s a Harvard study. Now, whether or not you believe the Harvard study or not is not, not the issue here.

The issue is that she’s somewhere between 23 to 25 weeks and she overdosed on Tylenol and she’s going to die. She’s not gonna come off that ventilator. People are, are just taking massive amounts of Tylenol to prove, prove Trump wrong. I mean, weren’t these the same people who put Harvard and Fauci and the pillars of science?

On a pedestal. And now they refuse to believe [00:02:00] 28 weeks pregnant. You know what, I’m gonna take some, the title, we’ll see. The oph gonna work like a charm and my baby won’t have autism.

Speaker 3: How dumb are they that you hate a president enough? To risk the health of your unborn child, and where the hell are the, the men who made him pregnant? Mm. Probably, I’m telling you, I would have an issue. This is not new. The warning not to take acetaminophen during pregnancy is not new. It is. Well.

Simone Collins: So,

Malcolm Collins: and we’ll get into this for people who don’t know Tylenol is by like, mu, let’s ignore the JFK, let’s ignore the new studies that we’re gonna go into.

Mm-hmm. It was considered to be the safest pain reliever when you’re pregnant, but not. Safe for pregnancy, it, it was the safest option when you needed an option. [00:03:00] Yeah, and to be

Simone Collins: clear, in multiple pregnancies we have used Tylenol, and that is because you have to balance risks. So if you have a really high fever and you have, for example, a first trimester baby.

You, you risk giving that baby neural tube defects if they are exposed to a high fever. So for the baby we just had who is now in the NICU and was otherwise very healthy, he basically sustained an injury while being born. So nothing inherently wrong with him. I had a very high fever. Moments after the embryo was transferred and then like one week after when neural tube development began, I was definitely on Tylenol.

Like everyone was like

Malcolm Collins: aware of is is cost benefit trade off with this stuff ‘cause we’re, we’re also gonna go over in this. Even if RFK is right about everything he’s saying, what is the actual risk of one of the complications from Tylenol? And it’s still fairly low. Mm-hmm. I say a single one to 2% increase in, in probability.

Yeah. And this is [00:04:00] based probability, not, you know, if the, if the original risk was 1% and now the new risk is 2%, you could say, well, it increased by a hundred percent, or it increased by 1%, it

Simone Collins: doubled your risk, which sounds so scary.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and but the, sorry, the point I was gonna make here is it’s as if these people hate, like our political side more than they love their children.

They would just decide to risk their, and when I say risks, their child, Tylenol itself said in tweets, in multiple tweets that will go over. Do not take this when you’re pregnant.

Mm-hmm. It

has not been approved for use in pregnancy and it may have negative consequences.

Mm-hmm.

When people asked if they could, so like, this is mainstream, the company itself saying don’t do this.

Everyone should know that you can’t just take infinite Tylenol. But I think these people are just like, my side says, Trump is bad for saying [00:05:00] x, therefore. I don’t need to like, like do they not even research? Did they not even Google before? They just start taking a ton of Tylenol when they’re visibly pregnant?

I mean,

it reminds me of in, in Scotland I heard one of the, a report from my friend of, of a girl who he knew from like inner city Glasgow. ‘cause that’s where he grew up, where she was smoking when she was pregnant. And they were like, why are you doing that? And, and she said she heard it made the, the baby smaller so that giving birth would hurt less.

Oh.

So there are astonishingly stupid people out there. Well, and, and there’s

Simone Collins: the, the other example of I, someone on, on social media was complaining that they ordered a grocery delivery that included Tylenol and the person who delivered the groceries substituted it for acetaminophen and was like, didn’t you know that Trump said that Tylenol isn’t safe?

And. They’re

Malcolm Collins: the

Simone Collins: same thing.

Malcolm Collins: The same thing. Yeah. I know. And the Simone has been bemoaning the entire time this [00:06:00] controversy has been going. How upsetting it must be to be at Tylenol just because Trump cannot pronounce acetaminophen. Yeah. And we know that’s why he said Tylenol. ‘cause there’s this feature apparent, we’re like.

You describe it, you described it to me this morning. Oh my. It’s

Simone Collins: the, no, you have to, I’ll, I’ll try to find a clip of the press conference. Yeah. Where Trump, you know, makes this big announcement about RF K’s report on acetaminophen. And he’s like, oh man, I’m gonna mispronounce this. And he tries to say the word acetaminophen and butchers it multiple times.

And, and Kennedy, RFK is just standing right behind him the whole time with his pain, look on his face and you know, his voice is super screwed up. So he is saying acetaminophen, acetaminophen. And like obviously Trump is not hearing it and you could see his, his lips moving and he’s trying to tell Trump, obviously Trump didn’t listen to the white Stripes.

And, and,

Malcolm Collins: and a and did they talk about acetaminophen?

Simone Collins: Yeah. There’s this, the, you know, you have no taste in medicine. Acetaminophin. Okay. You see.

Speaker 5: First, , effective immediately the FDA will be notifying physicians at the use of ace. [00:07:00] Well, let’s see how we say that. Ace acid, acetaminophen. Acetaminophen. Is that okay? Yes. Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol during pregnancy can be associated with a very increase. Risk of autism. So taking Tylenol is, , not good.

Alright. I’ll say it, it’s not good for this reason. They are strongly recommending that women limit Tylenol use during pregnancy unless medically necessary. That’s, , for instance, in cases of high fever.

Simone Collins: Well, so the,

Malcolm Collins: the great thing here about all of this and, and I will know when people are like, like, what are your guys deeper thoughts before I get into this?

Simone, you believe that there actually aren’t. Particularly like you think that RFK messed up the studies that [00:08:00] he was citing. I think that maybe you were told this by a progressive journalist without actually looking into the volume of studies that he was citing. Okay. So I, I, I think he is likely accurate that there, there probably is some complication there.

I also really, my

Simone Collins: understanding is that this is one of those issues where he, there, there wasn’t enough correction used. Like when you ultimately correct for. A bunch of factors that you should be correcting for in a, in a study, which is hard. It’s a very nuanced thing. Right.

Malcolm Collins: But that’s, you sort of have the impression that this was like one study of like 20,000 people.

Yeah. When it was like. Eight studies of like 80,000 to 200,000 people each. Mm-hmm. Done by different teams that all came to around the same result. So I, I wanna be clear here. It you, you had the impression, like, it was like one study that made a mistake, and I think one study might’ve made a mistake.

I mean, the left has to react reactively to everything like this. I think the wider problem around autism is Simone’s diagnosis, autism. Our kids are diagnosed with autism. It’s genetic. Also, it’s a bunch of different things. My mom had a view of autism that is not [00:09:00] dissimilar from RFK. She’s like, you know, she won’t be able to love you or the children.

And when one of our kids was diagnosed with autism, she was like, well, you know, that’s it for his life. You know, and at RFK I’ll see all these things. Like, you know, when people with who have autism, their lives are ruined. Meanwhile, you know, Elon has been diagnosed with autism because he is diagnosed with Asperger’s, and Asperger’s is no longer a separate diagnosis.

So he would be technically autistic. And so, we need to, I think realistically as a society break apart autism into multiple diagnoses. Again, yes, it’s really, really stupid to have it listed as one diagnoses when one person is like Elon or my wife and then another person. Can’t use the bathroom on their own.

Like, why are we calling these the same thing? It’s, it’s, it’s not even like degrees. And the reason why the wokes and the woke departments cannot do this is because. Then all of the people who are using this to try to claim like disability points and which, which, which they need for their social games, [00:10:00] right?

Like anyone could just self ideas, autistic, which they do, you know, the internet, right? And then the people who actually. Have challenges because of this. They, they point to them as if they’re in the same kind of disabled camp as the actually severely disabled person. And the mere fact, and I actually think it’s really sick and psychotic, that people do this because you will see like far lefties online, like literally be like.

How dare RFK say he wants to reduce autism rates. This is a genocide against my people. This is my people being erased. And, and, and so no research should be done into reducing autism. When I’m like, you understand that? Like this is a diagnosis that’s also being applied to people who can barely function in society or Yeah.

Who

Simone Collins: will forever be in diapers and need full-time round the clock care, who will never be able to get a job, will never be able to do anything independently. Who are huge risks to themselves and others. Yeah. Yeah. Like how,

Malcolm Collins: how dare you say that those [00:11:00] people that we shouldn’t try to reduce whatever’s causing that.

Just so you can claim your disability points and the RFK is coming to genocide, you. Yeah, and I think

Simone Collins: that there, there are some conditions that are diagnosed as autism that are downstream of just other things, like there’s this new medication that a lot of people are talking about. Which is meant it to treat, I think maybe like a thyroid imbalance or something like that, that really does seem to effectively treat it at, at least in, in the research, it’s been focused on children, but adults have also reported big changes in like their language processing ability, and that’s getting grouped in and, and those people want this treatment because it makes them.

Like they, they can be more functional as people. Yeah. And so there’s all these things that like sensitivities to stuff, imbalances to things. All the, and it’s autism. I’m saying

Malcolm Collins: this to somebody with autistic wife. Autistic kids, right. If you use the fact. That you are autistic to try to prevent other people, [00:12:00] especially if you are not low functioning autistic.

Mm-hmm. To try to prevent other people from coming up with cures or preventing that you are an actual psychopath and like when people should

Simone Collins: have the right to. Try to avoid or lean into certain traits that they want. You know, you shouldn’t force people. Right, right, right. That’s not what I’m talking

Malcolm Collins: about here.

When you see somebody online being like, how dare they attempt to reduce this? How dare they work on cures for this when you are not actually dealing with the negative consequences that they are trying to address? Oh

yeah, yeah. You

are. Basically sacrificing those people and those future people for your chance to sort of emotionally masturbate online.

And one, our audience needs to call these people out when they do this. Like people need to stop feeling okay doing this. Yeah. People need to stop feeling okay. Like this is how we got to this place in society is that people would do stuff like this and we’d just like roll our eyes and we need to be like, you are an actual psychopath that you would throw low functioning autistic people under the [00:13:00] bus like this.

Yeah. Just so you can feel good about yourself. But anyway I wanted to go into the woman who’s, he’s he’s back on screen by the way. Cam, maybe

Simone Collins: NICU cam.

Malcolm Collins: We just had maximally autistic. We, we, you know, did all of it all write feedback off screen? No. Needed to ensure maximum autism in this one.

Yeah. Text the autistic, that’s his middle name, the autistic, it’s, it’s actually Demy from the, the Culture Series by Ian Beman. But anyway the woman who, who potentially killed herself, where does this report come from?

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: what

Simone Collins: happened? Well, first, what did she

Malcolm Collins: do? She did a video where she did a bunch of Tylenol to try to show that it’s not risky at all while she was pregnant.

No. Oh, oh, oh. I told you thousands of women are doing these videos. This is a viral trip.

Simone Collins: Then. It’s not just her, she’s putting at risk. Oh, that’s dude. Like, yeah. Everyone knows in pregnancy, like, you can’t take anything. You can’t take anything. You can’t drink chamomile tea. I mean, come [00:14:00] on.

Malcolm Collins: These people hate you more than they love their children.

That’s, that’s just the end of it. Okay. They, they, they, their children, they’re just having them to extend this. A life, I guess this, this, this hypothesis of happiness that they are living, that that clearly isn’t giving them what they want. So by the way, Simone, I just finished this off. Let’s try to remember to not throw these away and wash them out because I think they make really good bonkers for the kids.

They’ve got. Okay, I’ll, I’ll, let me wash them out with soap though. You don’t want ‘em to like grumble? Yeah. They’ve got a sort of club shape to them. I can put them in like a milk break balloon or something. Yeah, they’re gonna break our kids

Simone Collins: play with trash. We’ve been

Malcolm Collins: looking for some, like good toy swords for our kids and yeah.

This, this would be a great one. They’re good

Simone Collins: clubs. Yeah. I

Malcolm Collins: gotta, gotta look for that in the future. The, the good bonker stuff. Try to find

Simone Collins: some way for them to decorate them or something. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, it was a video posted by Nicole Sir Tech, who is the executive director of American Frontline Nurses.

Now the reason why a lot of progressives disbelieved it [00:15:00] is she was flagged with COVID misinformation. Specifically she was one of the people who said that these shots might be killing some people. Which. We basically now know that some of the early shots were causing the type of blood clot in some individuals basically.

Okay. So the story here our behind the scenes information on this is that when the shots were approved, they were approved for intramuscular injection only. And that that required a special type of trained nurse, and so it would’ve made it harder for them to be deployed at the rate that they needed to be deployed at.

Mm-hmm.

And so, when they accidentally did go intravenously which I think happens like one of like 5% of the time or like 3% of the time it would form a blood clot, which could cause heart, heart issues. And yeah, like when you

Simone Collins: do an intramuscular shot, what you’re supposed to do is pull out the plunger a little bit to see if you pull any blood.

If you do, then you need to start. It’s not that

Malcolm Collins: hard to train people. They just basically decide. Yeah, it just

Simone Collins: takes a lot and I mean. But it’s also like more disturbing for the actual [00:16:00] recipient. So I could see like from an optic standpoint of view. Yeah. The point being is

Malcolm Collins: that she wasn’t wrong about this, but you know, she broke a progressive, like mainstream thing and so they’re like, oh, now you can’t trust anything she says.

But anyway she claimed that she received a frantic 4:00 AM call from an anonymous husbands who’s 23 to 25 week pregnant, had overdosed. On an entire bottle of Tylenol after seeing trumped announcement in TikTok trends CTEC said the woman was now on liver failure and a ventilator and there was little chance of survival for her and her baby.

And people have said, well, why can’t you get a camera crew on this woman if this is real? And she is Basically, the answer is, if you’re not. Retarded is this woman clearly does not like Trump, right? She doesn’t want the fact that she screwed up and likely is going to die, and her baby died. To be a right wing talking point, very obviously, she isn’t going to consent to being on camera about this.

You could say, why wouldn’t the hospital consent to this? You think a hospital’s gonna throw one of its patients under the bus like [00:17:00] that? Like are you out of your mind? There, if, if this is a real thing, you wouldn’t be able to easily confirm it. And this lady is not on record having lied before, and she runs a major nurses organization.

She’s not like a, a nobody out there. Right. So, yeah, I, I think it’s very plausible what she’s saying, especially when I look at these TikTok Trends videos and I’m like, that looks like a potentially lethal amount that you’re taking there. Like somebody has explained to you that Tylenol isn’t. A a no side effects medication.

Right. Like, I, I just don’t think they, they’re aware of this. So to get to the thing I was talking about, the Twitter from Tylenol the at Tylenol brand wrote, we don’t actually recommend using any of our products while pregnant. Thank you for taking time to voice your concerns. They deleted that post, by the way.

They got freaked out because it’s gone viral recently. Oh goodness. In another post at Tylenol said, congrats on your upcoming edition, ex. So exciting [00:18:00] Excl. Mark, it would be great to touch base real quick since we haven’t tested Tylenol to be used during pregnancy. Call us when you can quote then in another one on addressing pregnancy brains at Tylenol.

Said, we’re sorry to hear that it hasn’t helped your pregnancy plans. Please be sure to talk to your doctor for alternative pain relief options. So basically, and multiple. Things Tylenol was saying, Hey, you shouldn’t be doing this.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and just for pain, I mean,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. You undergo so much pain during pregnancy when you tough it out, Simone, you’re such tough.

It’s better.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, like, I don’t know. I, I think that medications should only be taken to protect the baby. When you’re pregnant, you get thrown under the bus. I do not care. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: I, I heard you can’t even drink when you’re pregnant anymore. What, what would I actually feel

Simone Collins: like people

Malcolm Collins: are really loosening up on that.

They’re like, ah, like,

Simone Collins: yeah, take

Malcolm Collins: it’s

Simone Collins: fine. Have a glass of wine. My

Malcolm Collins: mom, she drank during pregnancy.

Simone Collins: Your

Malcolm Collins: mom? Yeah. Half a bottle of wine a day. Yeah. Half a bottle of wine a day. So she drank and, and everyone’s like, wait, you don’t have fetal alcohol [00:19:00] syndrome? You can tell like, you know, Greta Berg has fetal alcohol syndrome and it, it’s pretty easy to tell when you’re looking at somebody.

And people can be like, why aren’t you? And I was like, do you know how much alcohol I drink? Like my family is like immune to the effect not even

Simone Collins: immune. It, it’s like you, you need it like bender.

Speaker 6: Leave me alone. Look at that. Five o’clock rust. You’ve been up all night. Not drinking, haven’t you? Hey, what I don’t do is none of your business please bend or have some malt liquor. If not for yourself, then for the people who love you.

Speaker 7: Wait. I want you to look me in the eye and promise you won’t get behind the wheel without some kind of alcoholic beverage in your hand.

Speaker 6: I promise nothing.

Simone Collins: It’s, yeah. It’s a necessary part of your diet without you,

Malcolm Collins: people are like, Malcolm, you’re really smart.

I’m like, imagine how smart I would be if I wasn’t born you know, soaked in and half a bottle. Born pickled. Yeah. Pickled.

But let’s go into these studies. Because I think [00:20:00] that you might have a, a misunderstanding of why he made this decision. Okay. Where did you get this understanding that you have, by the way, was it on blocked and reported that No, I asked, I asked

Simone Collins: Perplexity

Malcolm Collins: no. Okay.

Simone Collins: But I mean that, you know, like, it, it’s dealing with source data that has skewed so.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And I’m asking crock, so right, like we’re, we’re getting it both from ads. Well, there you go. So, so, nurses in health study two, 2019, among 29,000 mother child pairs, prenatal acetaminophen exposure was linked to 20 to 30% higher risk of autism or A DHD In children the adjusted odds ratio is 1.22, 1.3 longer exposure duration correlated with greater risk.

Now, I’ll note here before we go to the next study, that was a 29. Thousand mother child pair thing. And it didn’t just show greater risk. It showed the more you took, the greater the risk was.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But I thought that what there was was a correlation between people who [00:21:00] were autistic themselves taking more Tylenol when pregnant.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Maybe, but I, I just can’t believe that that wasn’t tested for in a single one of these studies. So we’re gonna go to the next study.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Next study. Boston birth cohort in 2,500. Urban mother child pairs diverse, low income, prolonged exposure, over 28 days associated with four x. Higher a SD risk or autism risk.

Now this one is interesting because this is what I saw when I looked into this before when you first started giving birth, because of course I wanted to know like, is Tylenol safe to take while you’re pregnant? And what I remember reading, and this is what I’ve always communicated to you, is that when it was found unsafe, particularly in animal models you basically needed to be on it for very long periods of time.

IE 28 days or more, like you wouldn’t even. Think of taking Tylenol 28 days in a row while you were pregnant whereas this is where you’re getting these, these risk scenarios. And, and, and [00:22:00] this was what we saw in mice around risks from it. Is is normal amounts of Tylenol taken for extremely long periods of time.

And some people just do this because they have daily pain. And that’s where I think we really do need to be looking at the risk from this because I, I would not be at all surprised to this four x higher rate. And, and I don’t think you can get something like a four x higher rate just from a correlation with autistic people being more likely to take Tylenol.

Simone Collins: I think maybe there’s a I’m gonna check this to something about siblings like. In, in pregnancies that had more acetaminophen intake. If you also looked at whether their siblings were autistic, there were, but then, I mean, presumably the mothers just have a habit of taking more

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: more acetaminophen.

However it, it does say that some research indicates that there is a maternal genetic predisposition to neuro development conditions and, and correlating with increased pregnancy symptoms like autistic people. As you know, are more sensitive to [00:23:00] a lot of things. True. And therefore may medicate more.

I don’t think they get

Malcolm Collins: you four x higher risk. That’s really high. Okay, let’s go to the next one here. Harvard th Chan School of Public Health Review 2025. Mm-hmm. They did an NIH funded meta analysis of 46 studies with over a hundred thousand. Participants.

Mm-hmm.

And they found, quote unquote, co consistent associations.

27 studies showed positive links to a to autism A DHD with higher quality ones being more likely to report risks. So ones that were using more controls showed more risks.

Mm-hmm.

Say, recommended minimal use John Hopkins University and that, that just came out this year and used over a hundred thousand people.

John Hopkins University study 2019. Meta-analysis of seven studies with around 130,000 participants reported 20 to 30% increase in both A DHD and autism. And this mattered more in boys and more if it was used later in pregnancy. Later in pregnancy. Later in

Simone Collins: pregnancy. That’s

Malcolm Collins: [00:24:00] interesting ‘

Simone Collins: cause normally.

The impression I get is it’s the, it’s what you’re exposing a baby to earlier in pregnancy. That has more of an impact.

Malcolm Collins: Then we have the, and note here, I’m, I’m, I’m here talking about like John Hopkins, Harvard, NIH. This isn’t like some crack pot, like conservative, whatever. Seen a bunch of yahoos. This is, it’s, it’s not like the, the actual thing that happened here is not.

That because a lot of people are like, well, he couldn’t possibly have run enough studies to get this data in this amount of time. This is basically something that was well and commonly known throughout the medical field before this. Hmm. But it was also known that we don’t wanna scare women about Tylenol too much because we, we do.

Simone Collins: I’ll take autism over a neural tube defect any day.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: absolutely. Any

Malcolm Collins: day. Right? So that’s, that’s the point, right, is they wanted to not overly freak people out. So they, there wasn’t some big [00:25:00] campaign around this, but I’ve, but I’ve noticed that there was this like weird reactive thing on the left, and I think it sort of came from the, autism is from vaccines thing where any explanation for autism is taken as a sign of a conspiracy theory. Mm-hmm. Anyone saying this is what might be causing autism rates they’re just like. Ah, that’s definitionally conspiracy theory because we know that what causes autism is one of the things we’re not allowed to talk about.

I I, in the same way that like, if we’re talking about like falling fertility rates, you’re like, oh, that must be a great replacement theory thing. That must be a conspiracy theory because we just know this is in the category of things we’re not allowed to talk about. So Mount Sinai study came out in 2025.

This was the cohort of a thousand mothers and it found 25% higher risk. There was the international consensus statement in 2021 which had 91 experts from 17 countries review data and urged precautionary limits on acetaminophen during pregnancy due to quote unquote emerging neurodevelopmental [00:26:00] risks.

So, so in 2021, like a group of experts, and this was published in nature. Nature reviews, endocrinology saying the experts, the 91 experts came together and said, do not take this wantonly during pregnancy. Biological mechanisms. Review 2022. This one actually had a proposed pathway.

Acetaminophen may disrupt fetal brain development via glutathione depletion and prostaglandin inhibition and hormone interference.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah that’s a lot of research from a lot of really, and, and this is the thing, there’s also a lot

Simone Collins: of research that points out that endocrine disruptors in, you know, first trimester at the very least, and probably all trimesters.

You know, are, are really not good to be exposed to. And if you’re ordering takeout, if you’re eating at a restaurant, like your stuff is being cooked in plastic, you’re getting that exposure. If you’re microwaving stuff in plastic, you’re getting exposure. [00:27:00] If you’re breathing in the air, you are getting that exposure.

So. You know, like,

Malcolm Collins: no. But the point you are making, and I I make this point as well, is if you watch this podcast, you’re gonna be broadly aware of the tide studies that she’s referencing here which show that young boys who mothers have endocrine disruptors in them during the first trimester of pregnancy which are common in a lot of chemicals today.

They develop less into fully males. They show more female play behavior at the age of seven, lower an genital distance at birth. Yeah. So, this is a thing that is known. If RFK went up there and said there’s a chemical that’s, you know, making young boys develop more like young girls everyone would be like, oh, you turn in the frogs gay.

Oh, this is a conspiracy theory. Oh, can you believe how crazy it is? The next day there would be 20 things from the left about why these studies don’t have proper controls and why these studies don’t have proper

Simone Collins: women eating plastic microwaving their vegetables and plastic bags. Yeah. You

Malcolm Collins: [00:28:00] guys know this.

We know this. This was just a category of thing that was in certain communities, was commonly known. IE, the the in nature from the big panel of international experts. And RFK just basically went up and said it publicly and the left had to have an existential freakout in the same way that and I, I won’t say right these days, this is more common on the left, but the right used to be like this.

Like when Michelle Obama decided she was gonna like plant healthy gardens in the right. Oh yeah.

Simone Collins: She, yeah, she planted like a victory garden at the White House. Yeah. Yeah. What can

Malcolm Collins: I do? This not gonna offend. Then it became cool on the right to be like performatively unhealthy for a while and people would walk around with like the giant, like baby size.

Speaker 9: Then there is a horrifying 512 ounce version that they call child Side. How is this a child size soda? Well, it’s roughly the size of a 2-year-old child. If the child were liquified,

Malcolm Collins: oh God.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Cups of, of [00:29:00] soda drinking them just to show Oh, I’m not a, a cocky damn. I, I am destroying my body to, to show how bad they are. Right. You know? The broader thing is. Because people often ask, what do we think of Maha? What do we think of RFK?

He seems pretty cool, is what I’d say. I, I don’t think, I think he’s like, seems like a righteous dude. He seems like a righteous dude. Yeah.

Speaker 11: . He jeopardizes my ability to effectively govern this student body.

Speaker 12: Oh, well, he’s very popular. Ed, the S Portos and Motorhead geeks sluts, bloods, OIDs, dweebs, dickhead. They all adore him. They think he’s a righteous dude.

Malcolm Collins: He, he, he’s not right about all the science that he does. Absolutely true. He does make mistakes. He is not like a rationalist, he’s much closer to a granola mom.

But. He doesn’t attack the things that I care about. He’s, he’s not out there, you know, complaining about GMO foods, [00:30:00] which I think are like a way, I love that, that we took the, let’s prevent the random chemicals in endorphin. A blocker, you know? And let’s, let’s drop the GMO in anti-nuclear stuff.

That was common in, in the old granola communities. Like I remember at Stanford, somebody was like, you’re, you’re they’re trying to get me flyers about that. And I was like, oh, like, no, sorry, I’m, I’m a scientist. And they’re like, oh, well then you must be extra against it. And I was like. Nobody who has a deep understanding of biology is against this, it, it, it’s not that it cannot cause issues.

Right. Like you, you can’t get crossbreeding with wild specimens. You can’t get change in wild populations. And then, you know,

Simone Collins: there’s the, the, the political commercial issues of like theoretically an agricultural company that produces them suing a farmer who’s growing it because they didn’t pay for the seeds.

Right, right, right. But

Malcolm Collins: if you’re, but if you’re actually aware of how much. Extra crop is produced because of this. Well, and often

Simone Collins: without the need for, [00:31:00] genuinely bad for your health. Pesticides. Pesticides, yes.

Malcolm Collins: Which grow into the water supply. Yes. And then it’s not just the pesticides that you are eating these pesticides through.

The rainwater go into the rivers. And they just completely f up these ecosystems. Yeah. Like if, if you care about environmentalism, you are pro GMO. Clearly if you care about like starving Africans, you’re pro GMO, it gets all of these very important nutrients into regions where you can’t easily otherwise get them through like golden rice and stuff we’re talking about.

Hundreds of millions of lives are almost certainly saved every year by the existence of GMOs. Mm-hmm. Like the, the, the, it’s, it’s one of these things where you just need to be sort of like comically incompetent or evil to be against it, like being against nuclear power or something like that. Mm-hmm.

Like it’s, it’s like a strict benefit thing when it’s being well maintained. I mean, you can say, well, what if, what, what if it’s not being, then focus on maintaining it, man. Right. Like this isn’t the, the decommission them when they get too old. Right. Build new ones. That’s what we should be doing right now, but we don’t have any major projects doing [00:32:00] that.

And most of our nuclear plants are over 50 years old. I don’t know if you knew that. Not, not great. When I think of a 50-year-old person’s structural state but. The, the, the, what was I gonna say was the, the wider point here. I don’t know when

Simone Collins: you think about it though, also, like appliance has built 50 years ago, last, a lot longer than

Malcolm Collins: appliances built today, so, yep.

But you know, but the other thing I was gonna say about RFK is so people are like, well, so he gets some science wrong sometimes being over granola, over crunchy. Like, is that a problem for you? And I’m like, as long as he doesn’t touch my GMOs, as long as he doesn’t touch my nuclear. Mm-hmm. And the ways that he is, is making these decisions, they’re like, well, more kids could die because communities are going unvaccinated.

I think that we have treated questioning vaccines as a sacred cow for far too long. And I think we as a society need to. Go back, look at various vaccines and be open to saying that they may not be safe in some circumstances. And

Simone Collins: what REU has argued on X, which I think is. Both very [00:33:00] brutal, but also fair in like a, in a world in which we respect people’s cultural autonomy is the highest rates of vaccination happened after big death scares, after people realized this is what happens if you don’t vaccinate.

If we don’t have herd immunity and then people went out in droves, like forcing people to get vaccinations is not the way people need to do it because they see the value. They themselves have been convinced and you know, they, they do it. Lemme point this out on

Malcolm Collins: another episode. There’s been studies done post COVID on like masks, for example, and we now know that masks.

And the regions that were heavily masked, like in the United States, the states that had less mass restrictions actually had fewer overall deaths. Mm-hmm. Even though it did increase casualties in the short term. So the idea of slowly building herd immunity and not having better effects in a lot of these external things is another thing that we just haven’t been studying very well.

This, this also is true in, in, in Europe. Not, not smaller, it was statistically no different effects there. Mm-hmm. But. [00:34:00] The point being we as a society need to be open to having conversations about this. And I’m okay with RFK mostly because I like the voter base he brings into the right, like. He brings in the granola moms and the soccer moms, and we only have to care and deal with like a few.

He’s not like banning you from getting Tylenol while pregnant or something. Right. You know, maybe incorrect things being spoken about. You know, somebody was boomer’s idea of what autism is like. If you’re autistic, you’ll live your entire life in diapers and be a drain on the economy. Meanwhile, like up on stage is Elon Musk like looking nervously.

But no, but I think

Simone Collins: that DC at the time, probably Good call what? He left DC at the right time. He hasn’t, he like didn’t go back since. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well I love that. What was it? You know, Chris Chan is, is very upset about Asperger’s people and, and now that Asperger’s isn’t around being considerate autistic because he doesn’t.

I think rightly he sees them as [00:35:00] using people like him who are undergoing real and genuine challenges, like the inability to not great their mom. Come on, come on. I had to, I had to go on that. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yes, you did.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I found out today because we’ve been going through and, and pushing to private on our fab.ai, which is like the AI chat engine that we built, guys try to, it’s like getting so much better every day. I’m really proud of it. But push you know, scenarios that are overly potentially like would squi people out in the not safer work simulator section.

For clarification here, the only reason we can see these is because they were set to public intentionally when they were created. , You can just choose to set things to private by default and, , unlike any of the other chat engines, our fab.ai has, , local saving enabled and not just local saving, but your save games themselves, not the local safe scenarios, but your save games themselves have military grade encryption on them and.

Every time you reload, , it will ask you for a word that is used to unencrypt them. , And that word, the [00:36:00] reason it’s asked every time, is because it’s not saved on our database. So even if somebody had our database and your computer, without knowing that string , of text or word, they couldn’t unencrypt your files.

Oh, and as to why we’re pushing some to private. We have some investors looking at us right now, specifically made it to the next round of the Andreessen Horowitz, , application. , And , by pushing them to private, the person who created them can still play them. But we don’t have to worry about an investor getting squibbed out and deciding that they don’t want to.

Now I know a bunch of people are gonna rush and try to create specifically embarrassing stuff on there, but whatever.

Malcolm Collins: We have like an automatic generator, so you don’t need to like, use simulates other people made to private. And there were a lot on incest and somebody was like, is this like a power user who’s making them all public? Or like, we, we, we on the, on the dev end don’t actually like have the ability to see that because I tried to make everything super anonymized.

So wait, someone’s

Simone Collins: just adding a bunch of incest content.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Incest. Fantastic.

Simone Collins: I love it. Okay. Go. Whoever you are, go off whatever. Yeah. [00:37:00] Hey,

Malcolm Collins: we had the episode where we’re like, yeah, cousin marriages are the best. Fourth,

Simone Collins: third to fourth, but yeah,

Malcolm Collins: third to fourth cousin, right? Yes. And and that was the episode where we had the big reveal to me that you and I are not related.

I had no idea.

Simone Collins: I know, I know. We were so sure. You were so sure that we were gonna come up as cousins.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I felt like third or fourth cousins.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But no, we look very similar. I know people joke all the time, we have similar personalities. It makes

Simone Collins: sense though, like when you look at our, our the, what we knew about our lineages and like where our ancestors immigrated and stuff.

It would, it would be fairly surprising. Yeah. They, yeah, they came over in very different waves. From d very different groups.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So anyway I any, any final thoughts from you on this?

Simone Collins: I’m, I, I wanna look more at the research now. Yeah. I was under the impression that it was, it was totally misinterpreted.

So now I’m like, well, I guess I need to.

Malcolm Collins: Well, ai, you know, sometimes the question that I affirmed it was is, is why did he [00:38:00] believe this? Like, where did he get this information?

Simone Collins: Oh. So, yeah, I mean, that could be a little confirmation bias, like, I mean, well, I also then

Malcolm Collins: why people don’t believe it and the answers it gave for why they didn’t believe it were so bad.

Confounding factors in studies. Women take Tylenol for things like infections, migraines hyper blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, that wouldn’t increase the risk by that much. Mm-hmm. That, that would’ve a correlation to the risk, but not four x or something. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Inconsistent or weak evidence of the 46 review studies, 20% show No.

Or inverse effects, but. Only 20% show no inverse effects. That’s like normal science. When you know something is right when only 20% of the studies show no lack of causality or proof. This is just nonsense here. The, the experts like those at Yale or Penn, no. Genetics explain 80 to 90% of the autism variants.

Yeah, but that doesn’t then, then what about the other 10 or 20%? Like we still need to talk about that. And then they’re like, an RFK is a conspiracy theorist. And then there’s been statements from who, FIGO and European agencies [00:39:00] which say evidence does not support causality, which they released that, or the RSK thing.

And I’m like, yeah, but like your top scientists were saying that it did until RFK went out there and went on the record, right? Like, this is the thing. Like everybody was like, chill about this until the Republican said it. Then they all freak out and start. Putting their heads in the sand is basically where we are as a society.

And if, if you’re watching this and you’re wondering like, where do I come down on this? I think it probably does increase the risk, especially if taken for long periods, like 28 days. However, I also think that pain management is critical in a pregnancy. I don’t think so. You’re right. I think

Simone Collins: fever management is critical in a pregnancy.

I

Malcolm Collins: think fever and pain management. I think if the mom has too much cortisol for too long a period, it can likely cause neurodevelopmental issues in the child. So there’s actually some really interesting studies on this. There was one study that looked at women who gave birth during a period of famine.

And their children were like significantly more likely to become obese later because [00:40:00] basically their bodies were, and that has to

Simone Collins: do more with caloric restriction.

Malcolm Collins: Right? Right. The point I’m making here is their bodies. Transfer information about the environment that that baby is going to be born into, to the fetus, right?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

If you are very stressed or you believe life is very hard, and there have been studies about this during like economic depressions and like the effects it has on babies this is not good for babies. It can cause like anxiety, it can cause depression in adulthood. It can cause sort of hoarding behavior.

And this is all like natural and evolutionarily adaptive. Right. So it’s, it is not even something that I would like question when I see this in a study, I’m like, oh yeah, like, that makes sense. Right. You know? And so I think that it’s about using Tylenol where it’s effective. Sorry. Using, using Tylenol like.

To, to, to some extent while understanding that you are trading one risk for another risk.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like do you want higher risk of neural tube defects or [00:41:00] do you want higher risk of autism? Yeah. You’re, you’re choosing a lesser evil and that that is the calculation to make, not, I’m just not gonna do this and be completely blind of the opportunity cost.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. I think that’s really important.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s, it’s a much, it’s a much more important way of looking at it or, or, or functionally of looking at it.

Malcolm Collins: And I think it’s also, the other thing I take away at the end of this is. The other side literally hates us more than they love their own children. They are willing to, that is

Simone Collins: disturbing

Malcolm Collins: callously and casually put their children’s lives at risk because they have dehumanized the rights so much that if somebody on the right says something that was well known in the scientific community and largely accepted before this they just have to reactively be like, well, then it must be wrong.

I, I almost feel like, I mean, it reminds me of the, the vasectomy van that was outside the DNC oh my god. You know, by Planned Parenthood. And I was like, if the right had sent a van, like, I wanna do that, I wanna get like the vasectomy van [00:42:00] sponsored by prenatal list.org. Right? We want Americans to have more children know that doesn’t mean you free vasectomies.

Then they’d freak out and be saying, we need to ban vasectomies. You know, this is, this is just what you do. Right.

Simone Collins: I suppose yeah, reverse psychology in the most simplistic way possible, and yet they fall for it. I, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I, I would, I would love, like if I had like a big foundation, like one of these mi or like,

Simone Collins: or if you were funded, like Turning Points USA

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

You would,

Simone Collins: you would, you would ditch the, the paid for debate me bro sessions and just put out vasectomy tr

Malcolm Collins: trucks. I would literally, I mean literally send a truck. A vasectomy truck. Two the DNC and I have it very branded, like American Flag. Why, why

Simone Collins: do it when they’re doing it and paying for it?

Let them pay for it? Well, because

Malcolm Collins: of the, the, the one I think it would, would do a good job of highlighting [00:43:00] for people who are open to hearing our message. Like the actual cost of not having kids and that we are not against dinks. You can be dink. That’s great. And then you can, you can put signs on it.

Like, oh, you know, you talk to news teams, it goes, you know, back in the day we had to round these types of people up these days, they just marched right in our van. You know, it, I think it would highlight for people. The value of being able to reproduce and that when somebody is excited about taking that away from you, they are not a friend to people like you.

Okay? Like that is why Planned Parenthood opened. The first place was to sterilize black communities like that was their stated objective. Okay? Yeah. It’s still so hard to

Simone Collins: believe and yet.

Malcolm Collins: There you go. 89% of them are in majority minority communities. That’s, that’s still I think the popul. I think it was like some crazy that the US black population would be 40% higher if Planned Parenthood never existed.

And I don’t under, I mean, for right-leaning [00:44:00] people, I, I think that this is a much harder pill if you’re like your classic like nineties rightist instead of like the new right, that doesn’t have any racist in it at all, and you’re like, actually a racist. It’s like abortion or racism. Which 1:00 AM I for?

You know, we, we saw one guy who wanted to fund Planned Parenthood for racist motivations. And he wanted to like start a big campaign around it. And I was like, I mean, you can try. But that, that’d be another fun thing to do if you want to end Planned Parenthood. Very, very easy. Be like start a campaign to fund Planned Parenthood for explicitly racist reasons.

And I think really quickly that would do the news rounds. People would freak out. Planned Parenthood would not take your money. And then people would be like, oh yeah, abortion, when you’re targeting specific demographics is really. A horrifying thing. Not that abortion isn’t more generally a horrifying thing, but, you know, anyway, love you to DeSimone.

So glad that we were able to welcome our kid into the world. Same. And anybody who, who wants to that’s a bunch of money [00:45:00] and wants to fund a vasectomy brand ban outside the DNC this next election cycle you let us know. And, and, and, and we’re gonna be like, we’re here to have a conversation.

You don’t want to have kids. We don’t want you to have kids. Oh God. Love you Malcolm. Put a scorecard outside the van, okay? Okay. God hitting. End recording. Love you.

Simone Collins: And set up. I learned something really interesting about I guess ultimate fighting and boxing. When Ultimate Fighting was introduced, it was seen as very savage and, I don’t know, inhuman because they were moved. Boxing gloves. This was bare knuckles fighting, and that was seen as, I don’t know, more violent, I guess.

Yeah, but it actually isn’t more violent. And do you know why boxing gloves were actually introduced in the first place? I do not. They have a higher [00:46:00] knockout rate. They enable you to hit harder.

Malcolm Collins: Oh. ‘

Simone Collins: cause it doesn’t hurt your hand as much. Like, you know, the classic film trope where someone punches someone else and they’re like, ah.

Because it hurts. And

Malcolm Collins: yeah. When you, my recent causing a concussion by, that is, that is crazy that that’s a, especially when,

Simone Collins: When, when boxing gloves apparently get wet, it’s, they’re like, you’re just fighting with giant rocks on your hands. It’s, it’s so question. And so the reason why there is an economic reason to do this is with sports betting, knockout rates are really favorable.

You want more knockouts because more people then have something to really, like, a clear thing to bet on is too easy to tap out if you’re just grappling or something like that. So it was, there was a commercial reason. For this one, for boxing gloves to be introduced and also for more, more violence. But then of course, there was also commercial re reason for the Ultimate Fighting Guide to be like, oh yeah, Barry Knuckles.

It’s definitely more violent.

Malcolm Collins: Fascinating. Yeah. All right. I will get started with this, by the way. What, [00:47:00] what, what’d you think of the, the comments today?

Simone Collins: People enjoyed it. I mean, a lot of the, the, the biggest criticism was Asman Gold is not to the right. And yeah, he is a centrist, but these days, if you don’t tow the most extreme points at the left, then you are categorized as on the right.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, even Russian right? Is, is, is, you know, JFK or whatever, who we’re gonna be talking about today, R-F-K-R-F-K, or you know. No, come on. RFK is like a, a, a lefty by previous definitions. Right. You know, yeah,

Simone Collins: a very, yeah. Crunchy, crunchy lefty. Yeah, totally.

Malcolm Collins: Even, even with controversies are left leaning, like, so the, the right, I mean, if you’re using that traditional definition of the right I think, I think MG GOLD is very sort of like the, the modern ID of the right.

In terms of Yeah, and I think

Simone Collins: a lot of people just haven’t recognized that the right is no longer about just pure conservatism, social conservatism and religious conservatism. It is about a heterodox alliance of people who want cultural autonomy. [00:48:00]

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Which is very, very different than we’re gonna force cultural, where the cultural conservative types.

They’ve actually moved to the left, um mm-hmm. Because they wanna do things like ban porn, which requires VPN bans, which means you’re basically giving the government to control what anyone says or thinks. Yeah. And in that case, you end up with like extreme leftist positions. Like, we need to give the government and bureaucrats control of what I’m allowed to see and think.

Yeah.

And so I think that, yeah, it’s just different world that we’re living in now. We’ve changed through technology and social situations. I guess I’ll get started here.

Oh yeah, we should probably also let people know. So we had a kid the kid is in the NICU still. There was, I forget the word, holes in his lungs due to aspirating in each lungs in each lung. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Which is, is it’s, it’s another word way of saying collapsed lung.

Malcolm Collins: And he’s probably gonna be okay.

You know, obviously we’re, we’re praying and we’re hoping that things work out. He if you, if you wanted to see [00:49:00] like a full video of like the births and the hospital process and everything like that we put that on one of our picture on episodes. It’s not because we wanted to

Simone Collins: ize that paid Substack episode

Malcolm Collins: or, or paid substack.

It, it is not that like we were trying to hide that from our general audience. I just don’t think that the type of people who come for our. Usual talks are going to find that interesting. And so it would’ve hurt us in the algo. So that’s why we put it with paid content and that’s what often happens with the paid content.

Yeah, I would

Simone Collins: show y’all texts on our NICU panda cam, but he’s being fed right now, so I have to, but I have him on a constant screen. And that’s one thing that they don’t tell you about NICUs, that a lot of NICUs have a constant camera you can have on your baby. So even when you can’t be with them, you can still.

Watch that. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, and for those who don’t know, because you did mention that some people were like, oh, if I could pay for you guys, I would, well, we do have episode seven days a week. It’s just the weekend episodes you only get if you’re paid. I, I will note the weekend episodes are, are shorter and oftentimes on subjects that I think that like.[00:50:00]

Yeah. Honestly, like when, when we’re doing our, our regular episodes, it’s a lot of stuff that I think will do well in the algorithm, like women, bad, Democrat, silly when it’s weekend episodes, it’s, it’s,

Simone Collins: it’s listener requests that we agree are really interesting, but that we don’t, that we think we’d be punished for on YouTube.

Mm-hmm. Basically. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So it’s more like what we think is interesting and what I think our higher economic user base is gonna think is interesting.

Simone Collins: So I, I like it. I love, I love the weekend episodes. But anyway, I like all episodes. Anyone who gives us the honor of their time these days is, I mean, that’s the most precious thing these days.

It’s, it’s a huge honor, but the monetary support is really appreciated, so thank you.

Speaker 13: Ben Bridge is working. Are you gonna break his legs? Soci.

What? Oh my God. You just punched the Yes, I did. [00:51:00] I off, off, turn off. What?

Cracked by the giant.

You’re breaking my leg towards move. Shoes are not allowed on the couch. Octa’s correct. Titan a pot of.

Okay. Walk through me and go

In this episode, Simone and Malcolm Collins dive deep into the collapse of shared cultural touchstones, the rise of political drama as the new global entertainment, and the balkanization of media and communities. They discuss why TV culture is dying, why politicians have become the new celebrities, and how niche communities are shaping modern discourse. Plus, the Collinses explore fascinating trends in books, sports, video games, and even internet slang. Whether you’re interested in politics, media, or the quirks of online culture, this episode has something for you!

Episode Outline:

As some of you have mentioned episode outlines being helpful, here’s the episode outline we put together for this particular conversation (we don’t always have these—typically we only have them for some of the episodes that Simone leads). Thanks for providing us with feedback on this front!

Based Camp - The Last Show Left

Our present age of cultural balkanization limits the shared experiences over which we can collectively bond

Highlights

* Why is:

* Marco Rubio not a viable Republican presidential candidate, despite his merit?

* The Democratic Party floundering?

* TV show culture dying?

* Because we have entered an age of cultural balkanization and there are only a few common topics left over which we can now bond

* People today—at least Americans—share less and less in common

* For example, an area where we’ve lost common ground is with TV:

* Household viewership for top TV shows peaked in the early 1950s and 1960s, with shows like “I Love Lucy” and “Texaco Star Theatre” exceeding 50%-60% of households.

* Ratings trend downward after the 1970s, with the most recent top shows (2010s) drawing only around 11-14% of TV households per year.

* This decline reflects the growth in viewing choices and fragmentation of the television audience.

* We are no longer reading the same books

* In the early 1980s, blockbuster bestsellers like The Bonfire of the Vanities or The Da Vinci Code could reach up to 10% or more of US adults. In contrast, today’s bestsellers—even the most popular fiction—are typically read by just 1-2% of Americans.

* Fewer Americans are even reading a book: Only 48.5% of US adults read any book for pleasure in 2022, down from 52.7% in 2017. Just a third of Americans now read novels or stories, way down from past decades

* Despite this, nearly 4 million new book titles are published each year these days (when including self-published works)

* Compare that to 2003, about 300,000 new titles were published in the US

* We are no longer playing the same games

* In the 1980s and 1990s, blockbuster video games (like Super Mario Bros. or Tetris) could reach 30%–50% or more of all gamers worldwide.

* Today, even mega-best-sellers like Minecraft (238 million copies all-time) or Grand Theft Auto V (175 million copies) have only ever reached around 5–10% of all gamers over their lifespans, and at any given moment the “current” bestseller typically only engages about 1–2% of all active gamers.

* In-person MLB attendance is down about 30% compared to 15 years ago.

* We are not watching major professional sporting events like we used to

* average regular-season NFL viewership is down from peaks in the 1980s–2000s.

* NBA Finals 2025 averaged 10.2 million viewers—down 46% from its 2005 peak.

* Anecdotally speaking, at least 20% of conversation at the parties we host involves either our pretending to understand content or people being referenced or asking for explanations

* Meanwhile, hyper niche communities are flourishing, complete with their own dialect and slang

* E.g. the influencer accent, which uses a variant of the valley girl accent to better maintain viewer attention:

* Why does this matter?

* We have fewer themes around which we can collectively bond

* With the pandemic well behind us (which created this rare shared experience), what we have left is:

* World events and politics

* Technology / innovations affecting daily life (i.e. AI)

* The economy

* Health

* And all these are the top-discussed topics of 2025

* And this might be one reason why political polarization is so insane

* This has implications for

* Any person or group that wants to have broad influence or relevance

* How relatable you can personally be (if you can’t speak about these issues, your small talk skills will suffer)

But let’s explore in greater depth:

* The great balkanization

* The nichification of humanity (aka techno-feudalism)

* And the centralization of discourse

The Great Balkanization

Fracturing of Sports

* While major sports in the USA (NFL, NBA, MLB) see shrinking audiences, “niche” or global sports (MLS, international soccer, Women’s leagues) see significant growth.

Fracturing of TV

* The most popular American TV show in 1964 was Bonanza, and 36.3% of American households watched it.

* 30 years later, America’s most popular TV show was Seinfeld and 20.6% of American households watched it

* 20 years, later in 2024, the most-watched scripted show was Tracker, with 17.4% of American households watching—CAVEAT: This is households with a TV

* I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF TRACKER!

* A show about a professional “reward seeker” who finds missing persons for prize money—all while struggling with complex issues from his fractured family and past traumas.

Mixing of Social Classes and Cultural Groups

Different religious, cultural, ethnic, and class groups mix more today than before:

* Social media and the internet has been a big equalizer

* Immigration since 1965, changes in laws, and shifting social attitudes have broken down prior barriers, leading to more multicultural workplaces, neighborhoods, and schools compared to the mid-20th century.

* Nearly 39% of Americans married since 2010 are in religiously mixed marriages—double the 19% rate before 1960, and much higher than earlier rates. This means Americans are now far more likely to marry someone outside their faith and, by extension, potentially outside their ethnic or cultural group than in the past.

* In 1980, about 86% of undergraduates were white; by 2024, that figure dropped to 40%, with nonwhite students making up roughly 41% of undergraduates.

* Nonwhite student attendance in colleges and universities increased by over 185% since 1976.

* In 1960, nearly 90% of American workers were white. By 2019, the share of nonwhite, Latino or both workers nearly doubled to about 40%

Loss of Religion and Other Shared Norms

* Anecdote about Malcolm’s mother insisting he play certain sports and read certain books

* Weekly church attendance has dropped from around 50% in the 40s-60s in the USA to 30% today (church membership in general dropped from ~70-75% in 1940s-60s to 47% in 2020)

The Nichification of Humanity

* We’re going techno-feudal and we don’t even realize it

* People have a tendency to not realize that they’re in isolated bubbles

* Like: People on X.com get the impression this is what EVERYONE is talking about, yet only around 1 in 5 Americans are active on it (18% of Americans)

* Also, even that 18% of Americans on X are having wildly different experiences depending on their algorithms and the accounts they follow

* Elsewhere on social media, there are people who think that people like “Becca Bloom” are household names, and while they may be HUGE in specific niches, most people have no idea who they are

* As of 2025, about 73% of Americans use social media AT ALL

Patreon as an Illustration

* Random things you wouldn’t expect to find

* Software and software mods

* Horse training

* Vanlife inspiration (also sailing inspiration)

* The top 50 patreon creators include

* #2: Peter Boese, who has this to say about what he offers—tell me if this makes ANY SENSE TO YOU: I try to bring a life like look to Assetto Corsa (AC). Ilja Jusupov brought us many tools to mod AC. With his Custom Shaders Patch (CSP) many features are added to AC. One of CSP’s moduls, called weatherFX, made new graphics possible. With Sol i created a highly customizable weather system for Assetto Corsa. The next step of my weather and graphics system called “Pure”. It adresses many problems of Sol and brings new solutions.

* HE MAKES OVER $55K/MONTH!

* OK: Assetto Corsa is a highly acclaimed racing simulation video game known for its realistic physics, detailed car models, and extensive modding community, making it a favorite among sim racing enthusiasts.

* #8 The TrueAnnon Podcast, making over $174K/month

* Several D&D creators

* #38 TURBODRIVER, which just creates mods for The Sims 4 and has nearly 18K paid members

* #41, Fornax, who “creates pixeldrain” (some sort of filesharing software) and makes $58,960/month

Accents and Slang

* Major social media accents

* Female Influencer Accent (“TikTok Voice,” “Influencer Accent”)

* Male Gamer Accent

* Tradwife Accent

* Male News Commentator/“Podcaster” Accent

* Gen Z Nonbinary/Androgynous Accent

* Slang

* Do you know what a lightstick is and how it’s used?

* It’s a fan light unique to each group, waved at concerts.

* Do you know what it means to be Tatty blasted?

* (r/tattoo: Covered in tattoos)

* Do you know what it means to be mogged by someone?

* (r/looksmaxxing: To be outclassed in looks; if someone is much better looking, they “mog” others. Variants include “heightmog,” “facemog,” etc.)

* Do you know what an HF-HOA is?

* (“Homestead-Friendly Homeowners Association”—meaning a supportive HOA for gardening, chickens, etc., instead of “typical” ones that ban such things.)

* Do you know what pan porn is? Or what it means to destash?

* Destash: To declutter and get rid of makeup you don’t use.

* Pan/pan porn: Hitting pan means you’ve used enough of a product to see the metal bottom, “pan porn” means showing off your well-used products.

* Do you know what slackpacking is? Or what a Nearo is?

* Slackpacking: Hiking a trail section without carrying a full backpack, often because someone else shuttles your gear.

* Nearo: Nearly a zero-mile day; hiking only a few miles before stopping to rest, resupply, etc.

* What community has murderhobos?

* Dungeons and Dragons

The Centralization of Discourse

What’s left in discourse is:

* World events and politics

* Technology / innovations affecting daily life (i.e. AI)

* The economy

* Health

It’s not just “news and politics” it’s WORLD news and politics

* The number of local journalists has dropped by about 75% since 2002

* Over 3,300 newspapers—more than one-third—have closed since 2005.

* More than half of US counties have little to no local news coverage.

* Asmongold on why he covers world events:

* (more than half his viewers are from outside the US)

* Research highlights that large-scale international engagement with US political content has increased, particularly around global platforms like X (formerly Twitter), Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook

* For more reading, see:

* Social Media, Disinformation, and AI: Transforming the Landscape of the 2024 U.S. Presidential Political Campaigns

* An SMU data review titled: “The Prevalence and Impact of Discourse in Social Media Networks: The 2024 Presidential Election”

* Both articles note that foreign governments, including Russia, China, and Iran, are also pushing this along

What does this mean for anyone who wants broad appeal and influence?

* You need to know what is and is not in your bubble.

* Anything that’s not:

* World events and politics

* Technology / innovations affecting daily life (i.e. AI)

* The economy

* Health

* Is probably too niche

* Because these things are now the only show left, you need to understand THEY ARE FOR ENTERTAINMENT

* They were once niche, intellectual topics

* Now they’re our replacement for TV shows

* We’ve gone from wrestling to pro wrestling

* And we must recognize that

Episode Transcript:

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Malcolm. I am very excited to be with you today because we are gonna talk about the last show left. We’re gonna talk about why Marco Rubio is not a viable presidential candidate as a Republican despite his alleged merit. We’re gonna talk about why the Democratic Party is floundering.

We’re gonna talk about why TV culture is dying and why really, there’s only one. Shared discourse we have left. So I will, I

Malcolm Collins: will summarize the point because Simone’s going off on tangents here. Essentially what we’re gonna be talking about is how. As the media industry died out and as the idea of cultural touchstone shows died out, you know, like your Game of Thrones or your, like, these just, we do not see these anymore.

There isn’t an equivalent running right now that everyone is broadly aware of except for mm-hmm. Maybe South Park. Right. But even, not even that, the fact that South Park is one of the shows, or the last one left sort of reinforces this point, which is what has come. As sort of the pan cultural zeitgeist to [00:01:00] replace all of that.

And that is the drama around us, politics, and, the presidential administration Well and

Simone Collins: world events, tech health, it, it’s basically that It, it’s it’s world news, which includes and is very heavy on US politics ‘cause that affects the world plus health and tech. So basically anything that, that profoundly affects everyone, that’s all that’s left.

And South Park is arguably only showing up and making head. Because its episodes are 100% on that. It’s on how AI is affecting us. It’s on shifts in health like COVID. Yeah. And it’s on US politics and world politics in general. But we’ve really entered this age of cultural balkanization. There’s only a few common topics left like those that we can talk about.

And I, I really wanna also dive deeper into just how profound this balkanization is, because I think it’s one of those. Boiling frog metaphor situations where people don’t realize just how in a bubble they are already in, like they, they, they assume that most people [00:02:00] kind of do the same things that they do and live a life kind of similar to theirs and are, are more relatable because they don’t really leave that bubble.

And so the, the impact there is that they also don’t realize that if they want to be broadly relatable, they’re going to need to stick to. A specific narrative. There are only some themes they could play with, but

Malcolm Collins: there’s, there’s another big fee factor here, which is worth talking about is mm-hmm. As the last show on earth, like as the Trump administration became sort of the last show on earth, we have also seen the global eye in the same way that historically you know, we’re in a lot of places you were on earth, you would have a show that this popular in America, but it was also popular in all the other countries. Then it would be mm-hmm. A cross-cultural touchpoint. You see a lot of people interested in American politics that were not before.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. As,

Malcolm Collins: as sort of a show. Right. You, you basically, you have around like consider our audience, like 50% is non-US living. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Well, and actually, so there’s, there’s a great, like [00:03:00] this is just randomly in one of Asman Gold’s Yeah. Episode where he talks about why he covers news events. ‘cause he’s been doing a lot of stuff on like a.

You know, like what on earth is going on in Russia, what’s going on in Spain, what’s going on in Indonesia? And he pulled up, I just showed you a clip of this in one of his episodes, he’s like, look like here are my stats. More than half of his viewers are from outside the us. And research does highlight that large scale international engagement with us.

Political content has increased, particularly around like the major social media platforms like X and on Instagram and Facebook. Because you can’t really. Talk about anything else, like there’s nothing else that you can get a platform around.

Malcolm Collins: What’s really interesting about this is sort of our role in this, because one of the things that I always comment on is it is so weird for people who don’t know.

We’re often seen as like the leaders of the United States prenatal movement and, and at least the figureheads that the media always talks to. And so, yeah, I’m regularly talking with reporters. Like starting with Politico yesterday, right. You know, and we’ve got, we got Telemundo coming over soon.

We’ve got a French station for a [00:04:00] 30 minute episode. We’ve got a German team for like a 25 minute piece. We’ve got a you know, we’ve had major pieces in, in Japan and well HBO’s here next week for the Oh, HBO’s here next week. Yeah. So we, we, we do the rounds in terms of international media and many people ask like, why isn’t there a.

Prenatal movement in one of the countries that needed it more than the United States, right? Like the United States is arguably one of the most resistant countries to fertility collapse. It it, when, when its wealth is taken into account. And so, you know, why didn’t the prenatals movement start in Japan?

Why didn’t it start in Korea? Why didn’t it start in Italy? Why didn’t it start in Germany? Right? And why did it start in China, right? Like all the other countries that are freaking out about this, like why is grassroots tism a uniquely American thing? Why is it when Germany. Or Italy where their fertility numbers are much worse than ours.

When they are covering falling fertility rates, they come and talk to me.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Why is it Telemundo is talking to us and not a Latin American [00:05:00] ISTs organization when, you know, Mexico Fellow of the United States, GFR last year or and, and you know, now it might be all of Latin America might be collectively below the us.

TFR when we get this with like, it’s

Simone Collins: not just in Latin America. There was recently a German journalist who reached out to us and was like, I wanna cover demographic collapse in Germany. Can you introduce me to the German prenatal list? Leaders we’re like, there aren’t any that we know of. And, and then he’s like, well, okay, just any, any prenatal list in Germany.

And we’re like, well, we know of one. She’s leaving the country and she’s, she’s an expat anyway, she’s not German. And he’s like, oh, I’ll talk to her. Like, no, there’s just, yeah, it’s really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. But, but the, the point being is we sort of joined as members of the last show on Earth, right? Mm-hmm.

Like, we are, we are side characters. We are background characters. But we’re, we’re there. And so we’re playing into

Simone Collins: the, the, the narrative of that large sprawling cannon that is forming. Absolutely,

Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s fascinating because it is a complete transition of what it means to [00:06:00] be a movie star in this generation.

Mm-hmm. And what it means to be a politician.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. And that’s the thing is because. This has replaced TV and movie, movies and sports and games as the one thing, the one discourse we can all share. It has also sort of gone the way of professional wrestling, where now these used to be, so like politics, health, and technology.

Okay? These used to be very wonky, nerdy topics, you know, newspapers and outlets and, and, and commentators. And armchair commentators as well who covered them, were very nuanced, were very nerdy, were very niche. They, they did not have a lot of charisma or personality. There wasn’t a lot of show to it. Right.

But now that it is the source of main entertainment and public discourse, you cannot really make it in this space without being an over the top outlandish character. And that’s why I mentioned Marco Rubio. And you point to him as an example, is that he’s one of those original, like. [00:07:00] Meritocratic, like traditional politicians who, there’s more nuance there.

He’s trying, like he’s playing the game like politicians used to play the game. Where, but now the game is the way Trump plays the game. It’s, it’s, it’s wwe e Trump, not, yeah, no, but political wonk, Marco Rubio.

Malcolm Collins: I actually argue and we see this not just on our side, but look at like all of the, like tweeting and trolling that they’re doing, like Gavin Newsom is trying to do.

Yeah. Watch everybody about the American psycho politician figure it out. Trolling where we, where, where we go over what happened there. But I, I think that you, you might be sort of picturing it wrong, where you’ve actually had a flip. So if you go back to the old days, let’s say like the 1950s, okay?

Mm-hmm. Everything was sort of centralized, so everybody tried to be respectable. You know, your, your politicians tried to be like broadly in offensive and respectable. Mm-hmm. And your media broadcasters tried to be broadly in offensive and respectable. And then you move into the, the era of the nineties and early two thousands.

Right. This is your, you know, Clinton and Obama, Bush era, right? [00:08:00] So in this area, politicians stayed broadly respectable, right? Mm-hmm. Like boring and not really the main show, right? But the media had transitioned. You look at the, the shows and the pundits that people were watching most and especially the younger people.

‘cause you know, you’re going through a transition and many of them were comedians. Many of them tried to, you know, spice things up. Many of them tried to be, be sort of like out there, right. And, and, and capture public attention. And you saw this with a lot of celebrities like doing stunts to capture public attention and stuff like that.

Right. Today that is flipped again where the the, the politicians have to take on the WWE style of what the media used to be doing, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The media that people are watching ironically in terms of like information media, like where people get their news, I would say is ironically more.

Nuanced and more sort of levelheaded and intellectual than media was in the eighties and nineties. Yeah, actually

Simone Collins: what’s really interesting [00:09:00] is, at least in the United States, media was sort of always known to be polarized. Like if you were a Republican, you would tune into Fox News. If you were a Democrat, you would tune into, I don’t know, like A, B, C or CNN or whatever, right?

And you would. You would sort of know and play your party. I was just looking at some, some pew research on the, the way that people are consuming news media now. And 37% of people under 35, I think a smaller proportion, but quite big of the rest of Americans get most of their news from influencers.

Now, most news influencers on social media, primarily on X, Facebook and Instagram. R. It’s almost like half and half. It’s like 45% have no political affiliation at all of those that do have political affiliation. It leans slightly to the right. So there are more, when they do express their affiliation, they’re more likely to express a conservative [00:10:00] affiliation than a a liberal affiliation.

I can send the graphs to you after this.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, but what I wanna know is. Who, what media influencer that’s a big name. Doesn’t have a PO political team. I

Simone Collins: think that ASM Gold is probably seen as one of those It doesn’t have. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Well then did is is inaccurate, ASM Gold is obviously on the right. Right.

Simone Collins: Yes. I, I, I hear you. But I mean that’s, I don’t think that’s how pew’s doing it. They didn’t name names from what I skim. Oh. So then

Malcolm Collins: they just did it wrong. Almost everyone who is in this space is, is partisan and. But I don’t hear They’re nuanced, partisan. If they do well, what, what as gold

Simone Collins: loves Bernie Sanders, doesn’t he?

Malcolm Collins: He did ages ago. Like he, well, but I’m just

Simone Collins: saying like, he’s nuanced. He’s not like, not,

Malcolm Collins: not at all. Simone. Most, but freaking, most of the White House main staffers now liked Bernie Sanders back when Asma Gold did. That’s true. Like, I don’t know what you like. Okay, so if, if, if you look okay at our show, right, like fairly nuanced intellectual coverage mm-hmm.

With a stated partisan bias. But you can look at the, the big figures like Asma Golder or [00:11:00] something like that, right? Like he is spicy, but he is going deep and intellectual. Kersha the, the, the canceled Fox U girl, right? Like clearly intellectual in the way that she covers things. You can look at sargon of a cod like.

Clearly intellectual in the way he cover covers things. Carl, Carl Benjamin you can look at on, on the, on the left right Destiny. Destiny might be a partisan, but he is way more in depth and intellectual than any of the mainstream hosts that were on television. Oh, yeah. No,

Simone Collins: I mean, if you look at any mainstream news channel, at least.

In, in terms of US outlets. It is, there’s, there’s no nuance. I mean, another really important trend that I think is important to highlight here too is that news used to be a highly local thing. And, and now it is not you really, all you have left. Even when it comes to like journalism that is supposed to inform people of local events.

No, it is all world news. It’s not just that, like people from Romania are tuning into Asman Gold’s channel and listening [00:12:00] to. To our podcast. It is that the number of local journalists in the United States has dropped about 75% since 2002. And already then they were like almost none, over 3,300 newspapers.

So more than one third have closed since 2005. Wow. So basically more than half US counties have little or no. Local news coverage. All you have really is like the Nextdoor app, which is this sort of neighborhood based app where you have to like, you have to upload an electricity bill to prove that you’re a resident and then people just kind of use that to chat about local things.

But yeah, so really again, like even when it comes to. The things that journalism still used to do, like they weren’t known for deep, nuanced, wonky takes about world news. They were more about like, here’s what you need to know locally. Here’s the stuff happening on the world stage that is relevant to you as a citizen so you can vote responsibly.

That was kind of this. Noble concept of journalism and that all fell apart. And now it is WWE journalism, and now it’s WWE [00:13:00] politicians. But would you like to, I I, I found some really interesting information on just how Balkanized culture is now. I can do, well, I, I wanna do

Malcolm Collins: a fun tangent here. One of, one of the, the fun things that we learned a while ago, and I should go back and see if this is still true, if you’re looking on some site of like.

Romanian podcast rankings and we were like the seventh highest ranked podcast in Romania. Yeah, I think that’s changed since, but I was shocked to see. Yeah. I’m sure it’s changed since then, but I was shocked to see that as well. I was like, what the is wrong with you? You Romanian b******s. What? What are you watching me for?

Simone Collins: Yeah. But again, there’s, there’s sort of one, if you want to engage in online discourse in a meaningful way and not just be in your very, very tiny bubble. And you need to be talking about these things. And we, we talk about, we do touch on the main things, you know, world relevant politics, which often is US, politics, tech, and health.

Like, we talk about all those things a lot. So it makes sense. But to give you a picture of, and I’m gonna use America as, as the [00:14:00] primary example here, because there’s really good data there. It has become so. Fractured over time. So for an example, we used to, like you said, at the very beginning of this watch, at least a lot of us watched the same TV shows.

So household dealership for TV shows, it peaked in the 1950s, in sixties with shows like, I Love Lucy. Like, I think there used to be some stat of like, at any given time in the world, like, you know, I love Lucy playing on this many TVs and it was just. Humbling and terrifying at the same time. Also though, like another top show was called Texaco Star Theater, which I’ve never heard of before.

So whatever. But 50 to 60% of American households watched those shows, so. You had more than a a, a coins flip odds chance of being able to make an inside joke about one of those shows. And the random, there was that

Malcolm Collins: many people watch the same shows. Yeah, yeah. 50%. But it’s the same as Trump today. If I make a comment about the Trump White House or some reason, oh, 100% [00:15:00] everyone’s gonna know.

50 over 50% of people will know. Mm-hmm. Way more than like when I was growing up, there was like, I didn’t know anything except for like. You know the, about the Clinton except for like the, the scandal, right? Like I didn’t know that much about the bushes. I didn’t know except. For like word flubbing and stuff like this, you are getting constant daily.

Like this is what’s happening at the White House right now was a trouble. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Even if you don’t wanna know, you know? And that’s the crazy thing yeah, people

Malcolm Collins: take pride in not knowing because they, they see it as like such a difficult thing to somehow not know what’s going on at the White House.

It’s true. But

Simone Collins: yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s not just TV though. It, it’s also books. I mean, as you did a whole episode on like no one reads anymore, but in the early 1980s. Blockbuster bestsellers, like the bonfire of the vanities and the Da Vinci Code, they could reach up to 10% or more of us adults, which is pretty impressive given that US adults don’t have to read and it’s not like that common of a pastime, I guess.

So 10 percent’s pretty impressive. Now, today’s bestsellers, even the most popular fiction reach [00:16:00] just one to 2% of Americans. And, and fewer Americans are even reading a book. So only 48.5% of US adults read any book, any book for pleasure as of 2022. And that’s down from 52% in 2017. Wow. And yet despite this, right in, in like around these days, so like for the past five years or so, about 4 million new book titles are published each year.

And in 2003, about 300,000 new titles were published. So 3000. New titles to now 4 million. So there’s like a billion more books. And like for any weird niche thing you’re into, you can read your book. And, and yet. It’s very hard. Nobody’s

Malcolm Collins: reading anymore. No. Yeah.

Simone Collins: And I thought, well, it’s like video games, right?

People must be playing the same video games. And then I guess this is me, like a non-video game person. In the eighties and nineties, the blockbuster video games like Super Mario Bros and Tetris were played by 30 to 50% of all gamers. So it’s, it’s very similar to like TV shows in the fifties and [00:17:00] sixties, right?

They all had this like shared experience. And you even see this like chip tune music was inspired by it. We all bond over it as like millennials, like all these references. You know, like white, like we know what that means as millennials at least. Right. I think even a lot of like younger people know what that means.

But today even the mega bestsellers like Minecraft, with which Arsan is obsessed

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Or Grant theft auto have only reached about five to 10% of all gamers over their lifespans. Wow. So at any given moment, the current bestseller only engages one to 2% of active gamers. Of active gamers. Not even like, including nobody’s like me who have never played a game in their life, aside from roller coaster, tycoon and like ribbon.

Right? So that’s wild. And so I was like, okay, well then maybe. Maybe it’s, it’s sports. Sports. People still watch sports. But no, actually, so average regular season NFL viewership is down from its peaks in the eighties and two [00:18:00] thousands. NBA finals in 2005 averaged only 10.2 million viewers. That’s down 46% from the 2005 peak.

So that is just. Like people aren’t watching the same sports anymore. What, what’s actually happening though is while major sports in the USA, like the N-F-L-N-B-A-M-L-B, they’re shrinking global sports like women’s leagues, international sports, international soccer are seeing growth. So people are just going into the little niches.

And then I think like anecdotally. Maybe people can’t relate to this as much ‘cause they’re probably only going to parties with people who are like super within their bubbles and niches.

Yeah. But you

and I, when we host parties, we’re bringing together politicians and journalists and business leaders and investors and influencers, and writers and authors.

And I think like 20% of the conversations are like either pretending that we understand a reference someone is making. Or asking them to explain a [00:19:00] reference that they’re, yes. It’s so frustrating. It’s just like, oh, well, like so and so said, or this, this thing, and like, oh, you know, Trump

Malcolm Collins: or Elon reference, everybody knows if you make a reference about the weird ISTs, most people know.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Like, which is weird, right? Like, yeah. It’s

Simone Collins: insane. It’s insane. And I just, I, I still can’t get over like, yeah, I

Malcolm Collins: wanna focus on, or say what you’re gonna say and then I’ll get to.

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, so the, the, like even in, in, in 19 64, 36 0.3% of, of Americans watched the TV show Bonanza. And then, then in the nineties when you and I were kids, at least 20% of Americans watched Seinfeld.

I didn’t. But now do you even know what 2020 four’s Top American TV show was? Good games? No, no. It was a show called Tracker. 17.4 American 17 point, 17.4% of American households watched it. What? I, I, [00:20:00] yeah. It was like, wait, what’s it about? It’s, it’s about a professional reward seeker who finds missing persons for prize money, all while struggling with complex issues from his fractured family and past traumas.

Never heard of it. I have never heard, never freaking heard of that.

But I wanna point out here, if you’re listening to this and you’re like, oh, it can’t really be that bad, that nobody has cultural touchstones anymore, outside of what’s in the public media narrative, if you like us, hadn’t even heard of the top show right now, you’re sort of proving that to yourself.

Simone Collins: But I think, you know, another element of this that I think is under-discussed, which I’d love to hear your thoughts on, is, is we’re we’re seeing much more of a mixing of social classes and cultural groups. So like when you were growing up and we even like your mom harangued us about this before she passed.

About like how we had to raise our kids. She was like, you have to go to tennis and you have to go to sailing ‘cause you need to have this like shared lingo with your social [00:21:00] class so that you can fit in. And now there’s just so much more mixing like immigration since 1965 and changes in laws and social attitudes have meant that like social classes and ethnic groups and cultures are now way more mixed.

So like nearly 39% of Americans married since 2010 are in religiously mixed marriage. So that’s, that’s double the 19% rate before 1960. Yeah. And in 1980, for example, about 86% of undergraduates were white. So like going to university kind of was like a rich, white person thing where you would all get your like, cohesive culture together.

But that figure dropped to 40% with non-white students making up 40% from 80%. Yeah. So like 86% in 1980. Wow. And then in 1960, nearly 90% of American workers were white. And then by 2019, the sh the share of non-white Latino were both workers doubled to about 40%. So like just, there used to be like a lot of just cultural isolation and like [00:22:00] shared understanding of things.

And now. We’re just, we’re mixed. And so that’s one thing. And then of course we’ve also, like church attendance is down, right? I mean it, it’s dropped from about 50% in the forties to sixties in the USA to 30% today.

Malcolm Collins: Well dropped say yeah, you can’t reference, I remember growing up my parents, I was raised in a secular family, but I was told I needed to memorize the Bible.

Yeah. Because they shared cultural touchpoint. Yeah. That other educated people would reference when also

Simone Collins: play tennis and go sailing. And what were the other things you were supposed to do?

Malcolm Collins: We. Tennis, sailing, you, you’d think golf. No. They said golf is only trashy or autistic kids learn golf. They were like, only like really nerdy, messed up kids learn golf.

Even rich kids, they’re, because it’s not a kid thing. They’re like, you learn that when you’re an adult. Don’t do that when you’re That’s

Simone Collins: true. Okay. Yeah. Learn it when you’re old. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: No, but I, it’s, it’s true though, like all the kids I know who play golf as like young people are like real squares. Like in a, in a, in a, in a way that, that see our pod person episode in that, in that sort of a way.

But, gosh, I actually just thinking about me [00:23:00] being like a sailing and tennis kid varsity tennis, by the way. Yeah, you were

Simone Collins: actually good at it. I just learned that last week. That blew my

Malcolm Collins: mind. You were like, wait, you were good at it. I didn’t like it. But I was good at it.

I love in the Discord. , Somebody was saying at one point that Malcolm has this identity crisis where he keeps trying to pretend to be other things like Americana or redneck or something like that, when in actuality he’s just like the most English nobility, , like Eduardo in Victorian period person they’ve ever seen in terms of values.

And I can sort of see it like that. I am. Intellectually that English anthropologists, Victorian, like, whatever you call it, like genteel scientists, trying desperately to fit in with the natives and pretend that he is something other than what he is.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, the point being is, I agree with you. I think we are seeing a degradation of classes with sort of new network classes emerging. Well, class

Simone Collins: separation. I [00:24:00] don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing either. I mean, like social media has leveled the playing field to a great extent. And like Right. But I disagree

Malcolm Collins: with part of your thesis here.

Okay. Oh yeah. I think what we’re seeing is a new sort of class system emerged. It’s much more of a network state. Mm. Techno fatalism. No. 100% techno fatalism. Like if you look at our class, our community is the rationalist slash effective altruist community. Even if we’re in the right wing faction of it, like we would have a many of the same cultural touchstones as anyone else in that community They’re watching.

Yeah. So we can make those,

Simone Collins: yeah. We can talk about Rocco’s Basilisk. We can talk about all these things. And we, we, we know Rocco,

Malcolm Collins: by the way, the, the guy who, who created it. I’m gonna have him on the show sometime, I guess.

Simone Collins: You should. He has some really fun because it, he’s come up with so many things aside from the

bas Yeah.

Like,

well, his talk on hereon was about building communities in like icebergs or something. Right. That was really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: You thought you could build cities, floating cities out of icebergs would be cheaper than making it on a ship.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Even, even make the iceberg like you didn’t [00:25:00] even have to.

Yeah. It was super cool.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That, that was the cheapest way to get a, a big floating mass on the ocean. Yeah. And the mass checks out. It’s cool.

Simone Collins: I like it.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway. Anyway so talking about Roco. Oh yes. But, you know, you have this shared cultural idea. Yeah. And there’s many other shared communities out there where they sort of all, like, we’re also adjacent to like the Manosphere community.

Mm-hmm. Like I know anything that’s going on in the Manosphere community, largely anything they would know. Yeah, we can make a

Simone Collins: lot of references to them. Yeah. Like

Malcolm Collins: the based gaming community we’re adjacent to. Yeah. Yeah. But there’s other communities out there that, like, if you’re talking about like the, the progressive gamer community, like that’s a whole other thing that like doesn’t engage.

Oh, can

Simone Collins: I, can I give you a picture of this? ‘cause I, I just think this is so fun. Okay, sure. Like I, let’s, let’s, let’s just some, some niche literacy tests on you. No, no, no. Before

Malcolm Collins: we do niche literacy tests. I wanted to go into another point which I think is really important is what you need to win within this existing ecosystem is very [00:26:00] different than what you needed before.

And this is what we sort of started with, but I wanna highlight it.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: I was talking with a reporter at Politico. About the various potential candidates for president in the next cycle, you know? Mm-hmm. If, if it wasn’t gonna be JD Vance, you know, who are the real contenders on the right? Right. And she suggested RFK and I was like, RFK is an awesome candidate.

Yeah. I loved his hilarious bear story. If you, you really guys. If haven’t seen Atory, he saw a roadkill bear and decided he was gonna eat it, which first of all, I’m like, great. You just, no,

Simone Collins: you have to watch the recording of him. It’s stupid. Yeah, just watch it,

Malcolm Collins: puts it in a bike lane in New York and, and the news started covering it, saying that somebody had crashed into a bear and it’s f*****g hilarious.

Anyway, I love it. I was like, what a base guy. And he is clearly not afraid to challenge the system and like, I don’t think he’s right about everything. I think he might, his skepticism might be a little too tuned up. But I think that he is willing to challenge things that a lot of people haven’t been willing to challenge for a long time.

Mm-hmm. And that makes me like him as a person. He’s, he’s got the, he’s got [00:27:00] the charisma for, for television, right. J Vance definitely does you know, he is got that great. Origin story. He’s willing to, you know, go to Europe and then meet with the a FD, you know, like the band political party instead of the mainstream party.

Then give some big speech about how they’re all a bunch of fascists and we shouldn’t even be allies with Europe anymore. And everybody loves, you know, it’s like he’s doing something fun, you know? Mm-hmm. And then you get they’re like, who else? I was like, Joe Rogan would be a. Presidential candidate on the Yeah, but get to your

Simone Collins: point, right?

So obviously characters are viable. Who’s

Malcolm Collins: not? Right? But I’m, I’m showing you what is viable. What isn’t viable is Rubio. And she’s like, what about Rubio? And I’m like, Rubio would make a great democratic politician because they haven’t figured out how to be interesting yet. No, but then no,

Simone Collins: he wouldn’t because yeah, they, what they need is interesting politicians.

This is why Gavin Newsom, if he just leans into his villain era, he’s good. He’s golden.

Speaker: There is an idea of a Patrick Bateman, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me only an entity, something illusory.

And though I can hide my cold gaze and [00:28:00] you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense, our lifestyles are probably comparable. I simply am not there.

Simone Collins: A OC, she’s, hmm. She’s, she’s close, she’s adjacent. You know, she’s, she’s character able. Right. You know, it just like you need strong characters. You can’t be, well, Federman

Malcolm Collins: would be really good. Betterman would be great.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh, no, no, totally. Well, I was watching

Malcolm Collins: a really interesting take recently when they were talking about the Democrats are recently their highest level of unfavorability, I think like almost ever, at least in a very long time. Hmm. And the party is just sort of unwilling to see how bad they are.

And a lot of people think, oh, this means we need to go extreme or we need to go moderate. And what the guy was pointing out is, is actually their unfavorability numbers now are about what the Republicans were when Trump came into power in the first place. And Dibbs have gone through this before, and he was talking about when Clinton came into power.

The, the, the. You know, bill Clinton and he pointed out that when you have these [00:29:00] changes in who’s running and who’s winning it is because the new person doesn’t come out there and, and just take a more moderate or a more extreme position. Mm-hmm. Typically what they do is, and Bill Clinton did this, and Trump did this.

Is they’ll take a number of positions that are more extreme and they’ll take a number of positions that are moderate or literally on the opposite side. So you look at somebody like Trump, and Trump comes out there and you know, everyone back then on the right was like, well, we can’t be as far on immigration as we have been historically.

Trump goes way to the right of them on immigration and then goes way to the left of them on gay rights and then goes way to the left of them on. Social security and, and Medicaid. And then, you know, goes, takes this new sort of nationalist rightist stance. It’s not like a warhawk rightist stance. And Bill Clinton was doing the same thing when he came into power, right?

Like he was, he was way to the right or even right leaning on a lot of issues. And then way to the left on other issues. And freaked out. Dims dims were terrified by Clinton in, in the early days. And then the [00:30:00] party sort of re coalesce around him as is happening with Trump right now. But they need somebody who’s gonna come out there and do those things while having a personality.

Mm-hmm. Which is why Fetterman would be so strong for it if the Democratic machine wouldn’t do everything in their power to prevent him from coming in. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You could run. Yeah. So I

Simone Collins: really, yeah, just so for, for like literacy. ‘cause I think people again, don’t realize how in a bubble they are.

Like people get the impression on X that like everyone is talking about the stuff we’re talking about on X, yet only one in five Americans approximately are active on the platform. And then depending on your algorithm, you’re in some little bubble there anyway. And. Like elsewhere on social media, there are people who think that, like, people such as Becca Bloom are household names.

Do you know who Becca Bloom is?

Malcolm Collins: Never heard of Becca Bloom. Of

Simone Collins: course you don’t. And, and that’s the thing is like they, they don’t realize this. And also beyond that, as of 2025, so as of this year, 73% of Americans don’t use social media at all. So they’re just all about their local communities or their family.

And that’s why you, you, you, you have to [00:31:00] understand this, but I can show like top top accounts on Patreon as an example. Of just all these communities that, like these are people who are paying on a monthly basis to get access to a community. It’s really important to them, and you’ve probably never heard of it.

Like random things you don’t expect to find on Patreon that are really doing well. Software and software mods, horse training, van life inspiration, and also sailing inspiration for whatever reason. Like of the top 50 Patreon creators, there’s number two. Yeah. Peter boy who tell me if, tell me if this, what you understand what this is saying.

Okay. This is, this is what his about. Says, I tried to bring a lifelike look to a set. Of course, Corsa, ac. Ija Jasper have brought us many tools to mod AC with his custom shaders patch of CSP. Many features are added to AC one of CSPs modules called Weather fx Made new graphics possible with. So I created a highly customized weather system for a [00:32:00] set of Corsa, the next step of my weather and graphic system called Pure.

It addresses many problems of soul and brings new solutions. So what do you think that is?

Malcolm Collins: It’s wait a weather. It’s either weather for video game mods. Is that what it is? Is it weather for video game mods?

Simone Collins: So a seto corset is a highly acclaimed racing simulation video game. I thought it was some kind of like weather prediction system.

I was like, oh yeah, I thought weather prediction first, but then you asked me,

Malcolm Collins: so I was like, okay,

Simone Collins: it’s gotta be something else. It’s gotta be, yes. Do you wanna guess how much he makes per month on Patreon?

Malcolm Collins: $5,000.

Simone Collins: He makes $55,000 a month, Malcolm. Okay. That’s

Malcolm Collins: the second highest earner on Patreon.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. 55.

Yep, that’s right. Uhhuh. That’s right. Uhhuh. Yep. Mm-hmm. So just

Malcolm Collins: $55,000 a month. Know dang well the Tru

Simone Collins: on podcast, which isn’t number eight, makes 174,000 a month. I don’t know, they charge more. There are several d and d creators, so d and d is alive and well. Yeah. There’s 38 is, is Turbo driver, which just creates mods for the Sims four and has nearly [00:33:00] 18,000 paid subscribers.

There’s number 41 Forex who creates pixel drain, which is some kind of file sharing software, and he makes $58,960 a month. These are people, again, like people are building their lives around this. They’re paying monthly subscriptions that are non-trivial and cost to these people for the software mods and to access to the community.

This is just the, the crazy thing also, I don’t think people realize we now have, you know, it used to be that like throughout London, in a London neighborhood, you’d walk a couple blocks. And you’d hear a new accent. Like the idea of being hackney meant that you were born within earshot of a specific church bell, and you would have your, they had their own accent, like it was a thing.

Now there are major social media accents. There’s the, the female influencer accent. It’s also called TikTok voice or influencer accent. Oh, yeah, yeah. I heard this Male, male gamer. S trad wife accent. There’s male news commentator or podcaster accent and there’s Gen Z, non-binary like androgynous accent.

That’s, I’ve heard.

Malcolm Collins: The accent that always gets me is the [00:34:00] EA community accent, which is like our wider like EA nationals accent.

Simone Collins: Yes. That’s such a thing. And,

Malcolm Collins: and the, the thing that defines it. ‘cause you see this when everything document it, it, it blinds me like when I figure it, because I find it so annoying.

Which is they couch everything they’re saying. They are like so afraid to make a claim where they’ll say something like, like, I feel, or like, I feel like X or like. You know, this has been observed or what, whatever. Right. You know, like they, they don’t, they don’t

Simone Collins: well, it’s more word choice. It’s, it’s more their, their like diction and syntax and like, a lilt and accent.

But it is totally a distinct thing. Yeah. You can listen to someone and know, depending on how informed you are, what community they’re a part of. Like, oh, she’s trying to be TikTok influencer. Oh, he’s a gamer. Like, oh no, he’s more of a news guy. What are we? Come on, people gotta tell us what, what actually yeah, I don’t know what we sound like.

What do we sound like people? Also slang, I’m gonna test your slang and listeners [00:35:00] follow along and see if you can see how down

Malcolm Collins: I’m with the, with the crew.

Simone Collins: Okay. Do you know what a light stick is and how it’s used? I.

Malcolm Collins: Light stick. I assume a light stick is used for like filming, like selfies or something.

Simone Collins: No, you loser. It’s a part of the K-pop community. It is a fan light that is unique to each group. So you can buy your light stick for like your chosen K-pop group that has like their logo and colors, whatever you wave it at concerts.

So I’ve seen this on my shows. I’m in Japa Japanese shows. But you don’t know the word, so, okay, try this one. Do you know what it means to be tatty blasted. Tatty blasted. You heard some good words here. Yeah. What does it mean to be tatty blasted? It means that you are covered in tattoos because there is a very thriving and very vibrant tattoo community.

Speaking of

Malcolm Collins: the K-pop communities, I had an anecdote about that. So at when I was getting my Stanford NBA, the guy who was running Netflix at the time came over and gave a speech. [00:36:00] One of the things he mentioned in his speech was like his secretary or something was like, I don’t understand why you don’t buy more like KDRs, because they’re all of the first page results on Netflix.

And he goes, that’s just your account. ‘cause you watch them all the time. That’s really funny. But the, the shows, you know, how you can forget, be like, oh, I see this stuff all the time, therefore No, that’s,

Simone Collins: that’s why I want, like, I just wanna like hammer this home that like, these are very, very large communities that I’m talking about here.

Like K-pop, the, the K-pop world is huge and we also need to watch K-pop demon hunters. And it is, we, we, we, we like, don’t realize, but like as big as those worlds are and as much as you can live your entire life within them. You need to understand that if you want mainstream influence and, and relatability, you cannot use that lingo.

You cannot use that accent. You have to play into the one, the last show left, but I, I, I have a couple more words for you and then we’re [00:37:00] gonna stop. But do you know what it means to be mugged by someone? Mobbed Mogged. MOGG. Moog, no, I don’t know Mo you could, I feel supposed these words. I’m not a hip, I’m not with it because I thought you knew all about your subculture.

This is from the looks maxing subculture to be, to be mogged as, to be outclassed in looks. So if someone is much better looking, they mog, others like you might be hype mugged or you, you might face mog someone. So that, that is a thing. Do you know what an H-F-H-O-A is?

Malcolm Collins: An H-F-H-O-A uhhuh? No, I’m looking up pictures of people who mugged people.

And they, they look ridiculous.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. The looks smacking. The looks, maxing look is a very specific aesthetic that isn’t necessarily like everyone’s universal standard of beauty, but like, anyway, an H-F-H-O-A is a, a homeowner’s association that is homestead friendly. [00:38:00] Homestead. There’s a big homesteading community.

You know, they’re all about their gardening and their chickens and their, their farm animals. And not all homeowners associations are super cool. Oh my God. Do you

Malcolm Collins: remember, I thought that was so funny. The HBO, like documentarian, who was afraid of us having guns in our house. Oh yeah. I just asked like, genuinely scared.

Simone Collins: Are they loaded? Yeah, no, she was genuinely like, she thought she was gonna come here and die. Who knows? She might still we make no promises. We gotta give

Malcolm Collins: one of the kids a, a gun.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Anyway do you know what pan porn is or what it means to D Stash?

Malcolm Collins: No, I dunno. Either of these. What, what

Simone Collins: to d stash is to declutter or get rid of the makeup you don’t use.

And pan porn is, is when you hit the pan. Like you’ve used all of the eyeshadow or like blush or foundation Powder Foundation. Okay. And what about Slack packing? Why would I

Malcolm Collins: know those? When

Simone Collins: would that ever happen? Know? Okay, you wouldn’t know that. But what about Slack packing? Or do you know what a neuro is?

Slack packing. Slack packing. No idea. [00:39:00] It’s, it’s part of the backpacking community. Also huge in thriving, hiking a trail section without carrying a full backpack or because someone else like sh shuttles your gear. Like you have someone deliver it to the camp ahead of, and a Niro is a nearly near zero mile day.

So you’re just going a few miles before you stop. Okay, finally, finally though, maybe you’ll get this one. I think maybe you’ll get this one. What community has murder Hobos?

Malcolm Collins: Murder Hobos.

Simone Collins: Murder, hobos.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. Hobo communities?

Simone Collins: No. Dungeons and Dragons.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yes, I do know that term. You know hobos.

Simone Collins: You do

Malcolm Collins: know that.

Okay. I, I can tell you what this one means. ‘cause I do know the Dungeons and Dragon community. It is when a group of players acts like murder hobos, they just, now that they can do whatever they want, they just go out and murder everyone they see and they be called murder, murder hobos for doing that.

Simone Collins: God bless. All right, well, I gotta go get the kids for a, b, a therapy for Tourin as we attempt to get him to eat food, which he refuses to [00:40:00] do. But yeah, the takeaway there is one, there is one show left, and if you don’t opt into it, you will not have widespread influence. You need to understand that you live in a bubble more so than ever before that we do not have a shared community or discourse because everything’s mixed together, which ironically means everything’s balkanized and not unified anymore.

And I think that’s really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. I love you. I love you so much. Bye Malcolm. Have a great day. Murder hobo you, you’re a murder hobo. I murder hobo every AI simulation. I, I love murder hobo. Everyone’s like, oh, I, I find I, I get too attached to my AI friends. And I’m like, but I murder all my AI friends.

Why do you do that? And it’s like, well, I can’t murder my real friends. Right? So,

Simone Collins: no, no. Too messy. Too messy. Although someone pointed out in the comments the other day that like. There are these swamps in Florida that you just like. I guess like you throw bodies into them and like no one finds them. [00:41:00]

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah.

Yeah. There’s some great places in Florida if for doing that. But we’re not in

Simone Collins: Florida, so people give us re We’re in Pennsylvania. All right. Relevant advice. Where do we

Malcolm Collins: throw the bodies?

Simone Collins: No, just tragic. Boating. Accident. Always Tragic. Boating. Accident. Come on guys. Say it with me. Tragic

Malcolm Collins: voting.

Accident. Tragic voting.

Simone Collins: Accident. Got drunk. Ooh, we were all having too much fun. Fell overboard. Tragic voting. Accident. All right. Yeah. I love you. Love you too. Welcome. Bye.

Malcolm Collins: Are we gonna switch sides? ‘cause you’re gonna leave this one.

Simone Collins: No, no, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: Too, too dangerous for the world. Order

Simone Collins: has to remain intact. Don’t do that. And that would be terrible. But let’s just sorry, I

Malcolm Collins: don’t mean to abuse you like that.

Simone Collins: Let’s just get into it. You ready?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I’m ready to go.

Simone Collins: Alright.

Speaker 2: Okay. Torsten, do you understand why we’re not going to a toy store? Right? Why? Well, because you haven’t been a very good boy. You hid your pears. Titan. What? Titan. I’m [00:42:00] thinking we’re gonna have to throw Torsten into the lava. Should we do that? No. You don’t want to throw him into the lava? No. Why? ‘cause has to stay.

Oh, you like, you like Torsten? Yeah. And you wanna have, you’d like Tex, you want Tex to come back healthy? Yeah. I don’t get the car thing, I don’t get the like thing that has the like rug and tiny car. Like Car R, like car rug thing and the tiny car squeeze. Yeah, I can. Go get it. I said, go get it, avian. Is that a very polite way to ask?

Speaker 3: Can you please get it?

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive deep into the controversial topic of IQ changes after gender transition, with a special focus on puberty blockers. This episode explores scientific studies on animals and humans, the mechanisms behind cognitive changes, and the social and ethical implications. The hosts discuss both supporting and opposing research, share personal anecdotes, and address the broader cultural conversation around gender transition and cognitive health.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be looking into the phenomenon of not just gender transition, but specifically puberty blockers. Hmm. And a significant decline in iq. This is something that most people are broadly aware of as a thing and that the trans industry has tried to cover up basically all of the studies done on this before 2010.

Found like a one standard deviation decline in iq or like half a standard deviation, but I

Simone Collins: didn’t know it was that bad. And that’s with puberty blockers not like full out Also transition too.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s like it’s, it is typically what I’ve seen. It’s like 15 to seven point drop. So pretty bit no, and, and it, it, it’s even bigger in animals where you almost see like a 50% decline in, in some animals and stuff like that.

So we’re not talking about like a trivial drop in the bucket or anything like that. We’re talking years of lead paint chips.

Simone Collins: My God, you’re right. And when you think about everything that parents do, the excruciating attention they put into trying to keep their children safe from [00:01:00] toxins like this, and then without even thinking about it, they’re throwing their kids on puberty blockers.

Malcolm Collins: Worst kids are being told that this is okay and deciding to do it themselves. Like they take your kids to a psychologist. We’ve talked about this over and over again, and the psychologist will assign these to them and they’ll tell them not to tell their parents. You know, after one meeting we had a friend who this happened to took his kid to a gender psychologist, psychologist, said to the parents and they go, well, we’ll have a follow up meeting a six months where we’ll decide if this is appropriate.

Turns out they had secretly already given the kid the prescription. And so, well even

Simone Collins: if that doesn’t happen, like maybe your doctor’s based and is like, you know what? This is not your problem. You’re looking in the wrong place. The kid can still go online and illegally get all the prescriptions they need with very decent ease.

There’s a very effective, well greased underground railroad for. All sorts of hormones that you need, well happen. Well, it’s because

Malcolm Collins: there’s a community out there. And this is another thing, the trans community that lows to cover up, but I’ll play a clip from Turkey Tom that I always love to play here, where he is going over what was happening in one of the trans servers.

Did they, there was a group of people who get turned on by [00:02:00] the idea of finding kids and convincing them to take puberty blockers.

it’s genuinely really good grooming advice. On April 4th, 2023, Postcard reveals he’s in contact with four minors. Age 9 to 13. I’ve so far sent it to four minors between the ages of 9 and 13. I hope it encourages them to transition. When the Anka Zone animation became a meme, they got excited over its virality among kids. Mana Drain and Orion also fantasized about getting kids on hormones orion was the manager , coercing him every step of the way. This is apparent by how he talked about him to others. Has he started hormones yet? Yes, but not effectively. I guess that’s what you’d expect just telling a r to buy hormones. They bought estrogen, but no anti androgen. It would have been more fun if he started hormone blockers at like 12.

Haha, isn’t that true for everyone? Don’t worry, I’ll make him into a good girl

Malcolm Collins: And I mean, this is a thing, it’s a real thing. You can be like, I’m not like that as a trans person. Fine, you’re not like that. But there, that, that community also exists regardless of whether or not you are like that.

Right. And so what we’re gonna go over in this episode is the various studies on this what [00:03:00] appears to be the mechanism of action here. And then we’re gonna go over the studies that say that this isn’t happening and we are then gonna go over who ran those studies, who said this isn’t happening.

Hmm. Because they become pretty easy to dismiss. When you look at who was involved in them

Simone Collins: Ah what, like their samples and everything?

Malcolm Collins: No the big one that the trans community always talks about in this literally was run by the head of wpath. It was no bias there. No bias, no collusion, literally ran and regularly did.

And their primary source of income and every one of the main authors on it, primary source of income was gender transitioning mine. Mm.

Yeah, I’m surprised that they found no effect here.

Speaker 2: what I do. I talk for a living. What do you talk about? I speak on behalf of cigarettes. My mom says cigarettes kill.

Really?

Now, is your mommy a doctor?

Speaker: No.

Speaker 2: A scientific researcher of some kind? No. Oh, she doesn’t exactly sound like a credible expert now, does [00:04:00] she?. All I’m suggesting is that there will always be people trying to tell you what to do and what to think.

There probably already. Are people doing that? Am I right?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker 2: I’m here to say that when someone tries to act like some sort of an expert, you can respond. Who says, so cigarettes are good for you? No. No, that’s not. That’s not what I’m getting at. My point is that you have to think for yourself. You have to challenge authority.

So perhaps instead of acting like sheep when it comes to cigarettes, you should find out for yourself.

Malcolm Collins: But I think it’s, it’s really interesting to start by looking at animal models. Because with animal models, there’s no reason to lie about this.

Right. There’s no political motivations or anything. So, well, and at least the,

Simone Collins: the Protran group can just say, well, it’s animal model, so it doesn’t count. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, no. What I mean is you can lose your job. I mean, we know from when Travis stock was closed down that there was a study that they had shut down and, and never published because the [00:05:00] results showed that putting kids on puberty blocker increased their chances of unliving themselves and increased.

Risk of self harm. And they they refuse to publish it. So we now know that like if you are a. Gender transition clinic, and you have data that you, you doesn’t support what you want to support, you’re not gonna release the study, right? And we know people who have had their jobs put on, on the line for publishing research, which could be seen as critical of the trans community because the trans community then goes and tries to get you fired.

But if you’re studying this in sheep or something, or you actually do need to study this in animals or dogs because you know, you might be neutering them or something, what happens when you prevent them from going through normal puberty? You can without any, you know, trans activists freaking out and coming after you really get into the nitty gritty of what’s going on neurologically here.

Hmm.

So let’s start with Hugh Etal 2017. This is a sheep study. We’ll also go into the human studies from a while ago because they, they were also really telling as well, like the pre 2010 months. The study was titled A Reduction in Long-Term Spatial Memory [00:06:00] Persist After Discontinuation of Prepubescent, GNRH, agnostic Treatment in Sheep.

It builds on research examining the effects of gnostic releasing hormones, GNH treatment, which suppresses the hypothalamic pituitary goon axi. On brain function during puberty, the researchers use an OV sheep model to investigate whether impairments in spatial memory observed during active GNH treatment reverse after discontinuation.

So, the, the point here being is it’s taken as a given within sheep studies that eve a sheep. Is is put on puberty blockers, basically. The sheep will have a severe impairment in spatial memory. And what they’re trying to study in this paper is, does that continue after the treatment is stopped, or is that only while they’re on the treatment that this falls.

And

Simone Collins: continues after

Malcolm Collins: they stop. Are they

Simone Collins: sending the sheep through mazes? What are, what are they doing? They do,

Malcolm Collins: yes.

Simone Collins: [00:07:00] Okay. Sheep mazes,

Malcolm Collins: literally through maze. It’s sheep maze. Yes. It’s cute. But, but funny, funny here is, is people might be like, oh, come on. You know, this is a conservative propaganda or anything like that.

Like people don’t get dumber when they gender transition. And I’m like, okay, except watch our video. The Wachowski Effect. Why is it that there’s so many instances of famous individuals who then gender transition and all of a sudden suck. At whatever it is they used to be really good at you know, like the Wachowskis, right?

Like the, the first matrix is awesome. Everything they’ve made since they started transitioning has been hot garbage. Or you look at the, the case of veil guard, which is what we were looking at on that veil guard, this horrible, horrible game. Like, honestly, the, the audience got mad at us for that, for making the clips.

Of of sections from the game. As long as they were too long. Yeah. They said it was particularly painful to watch. The writing was so bad.

Speaker: Oh, um. Ah, . They, they’re still holding it. Sorry. What are you doing? [00:08:00] Pulling a barv. Oh, okay. A barv? There’s not always time for big, drawn out apologies. So, when one of us screws up and we know we’ve screwed up, we do a quick ten to put it right. Pulling above.

Malcolm Collins: The writers who worked on this also worked on mass effect too. They worked on the older veil guards. What changed between those games in this game as they transitioned?

Simone Collins: Oh, no. Yeah. Okay. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: To continue here, the study involved 55 male Scottish Mule X extra cross Rams, born in spring 2013, divided into control in 30 in GNRH recovery. Now note here, this was all done on males. This one here, treatment consi consisted of subcutaneous implants of the, the thing every four weeks from eight to 44 weeks of age, covering the pre-pubertal period puberty onset in male sheep.

Then what happened? Okay, so spatial memory, orientation and learning were assessed using a maze task at multiple time [00:09:00] points. The maze required rams to navigate to a food reward with performance measured by traverse times across zones. Key findings included no significant differences in spatial orientation or learning traverse times between groups at any age.

However, long-term spatial reference memory was impaired on the puberty blocking group at 99 weeks with ran stinking. 1.5 x longer to complete the maze compared to controls. Oh, so that’s 50% worse performance than the controls if you were on puberty blockers than a ram. Now? No. Here, this makes these severe impairments we’re seeing in humans.

Very believable if we know that we’re getting this in Rams. Yeah, 50%.

Simone Collins: That’s really bad.

Malcolm Collins: Despite restored hormonal signaling, suggesting a critical development window during pre binal GRNH signaling for hippocampal plasticity and long-term memory formation, the effect was independent of gonadal steroids as prior work showed similar outcomes even with testosterone replacement.

So basically, [00:10:00] even if you try to. Like recreate puberty and make them normal male sheeps again. Yeah, the cognitive impairment is persistent. Oh boy.

Simone Collins: Yeah, so you can’t, I don’t know, realize the error of your ways or decide that you’re, you’re, you’re okay to go through puberty now and it’s all just gonna be fine.

Because this, the story sold to parents is this just buys you time. Okay. Like even if you don’t support the idea of your kid transitioning, you can placate them by putting them on puberty blockers. They’ll come to their senses and then you can just pick up where you left off. And here is No, no, no. You’ve just done permanent damage.

Malcolm Collins: You’ve done permanent brain damage. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, okay. So before we get further in this I, I’m just gonna give a, a bit of explanation for people who are a little confused as to why this would cause such severe permanent brain damage. No.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So the reason why the brain damage is so severe is think about how your body goes through developmental stages at, at like, let’s say at the embryonic level, right?

Yeah. [00:11:00] And then after the embryonic level, you know, you’ve got like a toddler who has very different, like, body proportions than like a teenager or an adult. Sure, right. They are a humans sort of undergo an incomplete metamorphosis as we age. You know, we think of humans as, as not doing that, but we really do a baby.

Like if you size a baby up to the size of an adult, it, it would be monstrous, it would look nothing like an adult.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. Parents, like on, on social media, like to post. Pictures of babies not being able to touch the tops of their heads. Yeah, the proportions are super different.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

But yeah, the babies, babies and adults are very, but this is, this is true for the, your, your, the poor parts of your brain as well. Like these morphological differences aren’t only on the outside. If you disrupt this sort of developmental timeline, which is very hard coded, and it’s one of, it was one of the areas I always found really interesting in [00:12:00] biology and I was always surprised that, you know, it doesn’t, it doesn’t get a lot of coverage in like American high schools or anything like that.

But it’s developmental biology. Hmm. Yeah, I never

Simone Collins: got any of that. You did. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: How does your body, and how do the bodies of animals sort of change the signals that are telling cells to change what they’re doing? Right? Mm-hmm. Like how does the cell in this location know that at this age it needs to turn into or start producing this sort of a thing?

Right. Did you learn

Simone Collins: that at St. Andrew’s? That was, they couldn’t have been in high school.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I learned that at St. Andrew’s. I went really one of those subjects. I mean, I always found comparative biology really fascinating. But it’s a very delicate process. This is, this is not something that you can like button mash, like a heart transfer or something like that.

You know, like literally cut out a heart, just sew it another heart. Hopefully it works. I you know, there’s

Simone Collins: more to it

Malcolm Collins: than that. There’s depress immune. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, that’s sort of what you’re doing with a purity blocker. You’re, you’re trying to button mash human development.

Yeah. The moment this cycle is disrupted, it can never get back to normal again. Mm-hmm. And this cycle [00:13:00] is in charge of this period of brain development. Mm-hmm. And when you disrupt this period of brain development. I actually think that this is why the Vizient were almost this, this cult that came outta the effect of altruist community were almost entirely trans individuals.

Because if you look at their writings, they weren’t totally logically coherent. They had these weird beliefs about like multiple hemispheres thinking differently. And if you’re in the rationalist community, what I actually think sort of made their community work, it’s they were people who were brought in before they transitioned.

And then they were in the rationalist space, then they transitioned, they had this huge drop in iq and they were able to be. Poached by sort of this mystic cult type figure.

Mm.

But anyway, to continue here. Additional GRNH treatment, altered progression speeds through specific maze zones in a session dependent manner.

Post recovery faster in breeding season to lower non breeding season and exaggerated emotional reactivity. No, they had increased anxiety during task. Which was mitigated by testosterone neurobiological implications point to [00:14:00] potential disruptions in a hippocampal and amygdala function as GRNH receptors are expressed there.

The study highlights concerns for clinical GRNH use in conditions like central precocious puberty or gender dysphoria emphasizing the need to consider treatment during and potentially irreversible cognitive effects.

Simone Collins: So more emotional volatility. Is that a, did, did I hear that right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. More emotional volatility.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. This is really disappointing because you and I like the idea, I mean, not in the context of of gender transition necessarily, but in, in the idea that like we can overcome annoying elements of our human anatomy, right? We can brute force things and. Yeah, this is, this shows that it is more complicated than just that you, you can’t just, as you say, well, what, like button meash things

Malcolm Collins: you can’t, yeah.

Well there’s some things you can button mash. In human biology, there are some things you can’t button meash. In human biology,

Simone Collins: apparently

Malcolm Collins: developmental [00:15:00] timelines are one of the things you cannot button mesh.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, and even thinking about it from what I did to myself in my teen years, I didn’t undergo.

Puberty blockers, but I did starve myself to the extent where I stopped menstruating and definitely stopped getting female levels of estrogen and it never came back. Yeah. So this is, I am like, oh yeah. Huh. Like I even anecdotally, even personally, have seen what turning stuff off during adolescence can do be it through medical interventions or.

Behavioral interventions,

Malcolm Collins: but no, it also seems to affect adults who get it. But when we talk about things like the wwki is getting terrible at everything and the Oh, okay. Because they didn’t take

Simone Collins: puberty blockers. They just took,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. So that, so, so that might be the wwki effect may be what we argued in that episode with this, like having to learn to play a new instrument midway through your life, like your brain a bit.

In the female brain. Yeah. Or also just having a different

Simone Collins: hormonal profile will change your reactions to things. It will change your drives, it will change what turns you on. Yeah. So, and you didn’t grow it, change your skillset

Malcolm Collins: up to [00:16:00] that. So you don’t, you don’t know how to use it. So,

Simone Collins: yeah. So it’s not necessarily that they, they’re seeing an impact to intelligence.

You, what you’re finding, at least what you’ve reported so far from the research is that the negative intelligence effect. Are from puberty blockers alone, not exogenous, introduction of testosterone or estrogen. Correct? Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And that’s what we consistently see in the research is it’s mostly if you, if you mess with this stuff during puberty although it looks like

Simone Collins: what I did to myself was a puberty blocker effect.

So maybe I’m dumber now because maybe, maybe

Malcolm Collins: you are. Which means that our kids are gonna be even smarter genetically than I would expect. Oh, isn’t that nice? Well, I was

Simone Collins: never known for, you didn’t marry me for my smarts. You married me from my, you,

Malcolm Collins: I literally did that. I’m the oxen.

Simone Collins: I, I I pull the cart.

Okay. Malcolm admitted you got into a

Malcolm Collins: graduate school of Cambridge. Okay. Cambridge. Who wrote

Simone Collins: my

Malcolm Collins: application?

Simone Collins: Huh?

Malcolm Collins: I may have written Go, go. That now public information that I drafted your application. I mean, everybody,

Simone Collins: you’ve draft so many people’s graduate school applications when they actually get it.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Everybody would come to me. They’d be like, Malcolm and I, and I did, I accumulated a lot of [00:17:00] favors by doing this was my favorite way to accumulate, like undying favor is help people’s kids get into top graduate degrees. Mm-hmm. And they’d come to me and they’d be like, Hey Malcolm, can you help?

Review, you know, edit. Simone wrote the first draft. Of course. Listen,

Simone Collins: we’re a combined identity anyway. It’s not even that dishonest.

Malcolm Collins: Well, you graduated at the top of your class so, you know, hardly, hardly a issue There it is a is a joke. I have because she was technically the top of her graduating class.

‘cause she graduated in a non time period. Oh, oh, no, no. Yeah. Gw, you were literally the top of your entire class. I was the valedictorian of my business school. Yeah. And there was how many people in that? Like thousands. I know

Simone Collins: the graduation ceremony was in their basketball stadium, but I don’t remember how many people were there.

Malcolm Collins: So Simone, if it impaired your intelligence of you’re somehow smarter than this, that is astonishing. No. But when you

Simone Collins: look at our genetic scores. Like on parasite. Oh yeah. I’m like, now I’m about two standard

Malcolm Collins: deviations above the norm. And you’re like 1.5 standard deviations above the norm.

Simone Collins: Exactly, yeah.[00:18:00]

So we know who the smarter one is. Maybe. Anyway, maybe I, I think, I do think that I, I might have, I mean, considering the research here. I think I’m one of these people that may be a little, little, maybe a little

Malcolm Collins: dirt,

Simone Collins: a little dirt, but process.

Malcolm Collins: Well, that’s, that’s why you chose to marry me, right? Yeah.

Clearly it hasn’t worked out the way you planned. You’re,

Simone Collins: you’re my intellectual prosthetic, thank God.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right. All right. Sheep studies neuter written, this is 2014. Okay, so, this was effects of gonadotropin releasing hormone and antagonist agonist in brain development and sheep. And it compiles and expands on previous publications using OV I model to examine prebuttal GNH effects on brain structure and gene expression and behavior.

The thesis involved a same-sex twin sheep 41 per study with one twin treated with goin actin implants every four weeks from pre puberty until 50 weeks. Methods include FMRI for brain volumes, [00:19:00] microwave for drain expression in the hippocampus and amygdala, and spatial maze. Tests for cognition and behavioral tests for emotions.

Key findings. No overall changes in brain volume. So the, and, and we we’ll consistently see this, no changes in brain volume but significant increases in amygdala volume stronger in females, left right. Sex treatment interactions linked to emotional processing. Hippocampal volume unchanged.

But gene expression, altered sex and hemisphere, specifically EEG, females, B-N-D-G-N one for synaptic plasticity, downregulated, VGF and NCA M1, right hemisphere amygdala gene expression showed pronounced. Changes in females. 432 transcripts left 46 right involving micro tubial organization.

They became unregulated and antiotic mitotic processes. Downregulated with no major differences in males. Spatial orientation, hippocampus dependent with unaffected, no treatment differences in maze latency eras though females perform [00:20:00] better. Overall behavioral effects included increased risk taking in treated males and anxiety like avoidance in females.

So. Note here first, what I’m, basically, what you should be taking away is the effects throughout the brain are in the structure of the brain. They’re in the size of specific parts of the brain, and they are in the gene expression that’s happening within the brain. So it’s basically not like you effed up one thing, it’s you effed up the entire system.

Oh, here’s a great way to put it. It’s like shutting down a computer in the middle of installing a game. Oh. And then trying to install it again, or, or no, better than a game, an operating system. You’re halfway through installing an operating system and you shut it down and then you’re like, but I can just start later.

No, you can’t. It messes everything up. Unless the system was specifically designed for that potentiality. Now note this persisted post-treatment in a scepter chapter on Alzheimer’s models was found jn h effect [00:21:00] on amyloids plaque contrasting with earlier studies implications of this study.

Purity is a sensitive period for sex specific brain mutation. GNH disrupts emotional circulation and being love more than cognitive one’s. Hippocampus with females more affected. Molecularly this suggests non reversible changes in neuroplasticity and raises questions for human applications as ethical limits.

Prevent direct studies on use. The species relates to prior work, and then they go through a bunch of other studies that found the same thing. Specifically W shops 2011 on behavior in Evans et all 2012 on physiology. Basically emphasizing that, okay, we can’t look at trans use like amygdala, right?

We’re not dissecting trans people. But if we did, this is probably what we’d be finding. Okay, so let’s look at studies on dogs, because there’s a lot of stuff on dogs because with dogs we spay and neuter dogs. We can get a lot of data on them.

Simone Collins: Oh, of course. Okay. Ah, yeah. [00:22:00]

Malcolm Collins: No. So, ectomy surgical puberty suppression via removal of goads is common in dogs and often performed pre-Uber or parietal puberty.

These studies address cognitive effects in age dogs with conflicting results. A 2001 cohort study of 139 dogs. Aged 11 to 1429 intact males, 47 castrated males 63 s spade. Females used owner surveys to assess age-related cognitive impairment across categories like orientation, social interactions, house training, sleep, weight cycles, et cetera.

Sexually intact males were significantly less likely to progress from mild to severe impairment over 12 to 18 months compared to go alas dogs in both sexes. Oh, this suggests goad directory. And keep in mind, we didn’t do this with our dog. Our dog is is fully intact. Which causes, you know, some problems if you’re taking her out or something like that.

But she’s a very smart dog. So maybe this is in part Y may accelerate cognitive decline, potentially due to loss of protective sex hormones like testosterone. The study hypothesized a similar effect in females from estrogen, but lacked enough [00:23:00] intact females to confirm a 2016 cross-sectional study of 455 dogs.

So again, a, a fairly large sample size. Yeah, that’s super

Simone Collins: decent.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And Akia used a validated questionnaire to evaluate risk factors of canine cognitive dysfunction, CCDS similar to dementia. While age was strongly correlated with CCDS, reproductive status, intact versus neutered showed no significant impact.

This contrast with an another study that showed an increased cognitive decline risk. So interesting here, this is one that shows you’re not at more of a list of Alzheimer’s, at least. In additionally, a 2018 study on spatial navigation, 56 dogs found that gonad or decides dogs, both sexes preferred simpler egocentric strategy.

Its body-centered turns over more complex allocentric ones using external cues in T maze tasks over. Sectorized females were especially likely to use egocentric strategies. While this doesn’t directly show a drop in intelligence, it implies that go ne sector may [00:24:00] bias dogs towards less cognitively demanding approaches, potentially it showing reduced flexibility.

So, not great. Not great. Now we’re gonna get into mice studies and what I’ll notice those mice is we do not actually see a drop in intelligence in, in mice. Did you wanna Oh,

Simone Collins: good for them.

Malcolm Collins: So, so what happens to mice?

Simone Collins: Okay. A

Malcolm Collins: 2021 study treated post puberty mice starting at six weeks was daily lide that’s a GNH agonist for six weeks.

Okay.

No impairments were found in contextual fear discrimination. A hippocampal memory test tied to cognition. However, sex specific behavioral changes occurred. Males showed altered social preference and increased stress responses while females showed increased despair like behavior. And hyperphasia.

This suggests potentially effective impacts, but no direct cognitive drop. So here, no. You don’t get a cognitive drop in mice, but women get depressed and males become incredibly anxious and increase, [00:25:00] increase stress responses. It’s

Simone Collins: fair like behavior that does not sound

Malcolm Collins: good. Just fair. I’ll, I’ll note here.

When people are like, this saves lives. We now know this isn’t true. You can look at our video. The Atlantic or the Left is turning on the trans community. ‘cause there’s on this article in the Atlantic that goes over all of the. Evidence. And it showed that even the number one trans lawyer in trying to defend this in front of the Supreme Court had to admit that there wasn’t a single, reputable study that showed that unliving risks were decreased by either puberty blockers or gender transition.

And we now have an entire country that we can use as a natural experiment because the procedure was banned in Britain and the unloving, percentage has not gone up in a statistically significant manner within this community.

Hmm.

So, nope, nope, nope. And note here, when we talk about, well, does this community have unusually high rates of depression and stuff like that?

We do know they, they, they do. They have a, a, a 40 to 50%. Chance of attempting unli once you join this [00:26:00] community. So it’s really not

Simone Collins: awesome, not good.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so next one multiple studies on pre boal go ectomy and mice and rats examine behaviors like approach avoidance, parental care, or anxiety but not cognition directly, for example.

Oh, they just haven’t looked at cognition in mice. Okay. So it might have been IQ in mice. For example, a 2007 study in mice found pre sham surgery. Stress alone, reduced context memory in adult controlled males, but actual gona surgery enhanced it compared to sham indicating no impairment from hormone loss.

So again, at least here, we’re not seeing it as bad. In, in that and in aged adult rats post puberty, gonad, ectomy, GNH agonist, like lepard dine often improves spatial memory and learning in tasks like novel recognition or elevated teammates rather than impairing it. So here we see, oh, maybe so look.

Maybe positive. Okay. Maybe in sheep and dogs, this is really negative, like a 50% drop pin iq. But in rats we don’t see this. So, maybe, maybe in humans we’re [00:27:00] seeing the same thing. Right. Right. That would be great. That’d be so lovely if that turned out to be the case.

Yeah.

So now let’s go to the human studies.

Hmm. Okay.

Mule Etal 2001. This is a study on adopted girls with precocious puberty. So this is this is a randomized controlled trial involving 30 adopted children, both boys and girls. Though the focus was often on girls due to higher prevalence of precocious puberty in adopted females with early puberty short stature they treated with GRNH agonists, specifically tryptoline.

Either alone or combined with growth hormone for three years to suppress puberty and promote height gain the children. Oh,

Simone Collins: okay. Okay. So this was really not about trans stuff at all also. Totally. Which

Malcolm Collins: removes all of the politics from it. Mm-hmm. With puberty onset before eight or nine psychological evaluations including IQ testing using the watchmaster scale for children or similar were conducted before treatment baseline and after three years.

The study also assess behavior via child behavioral checklist, [00:28:00] self-perception and family stress. Key findings. Baseline full IQ average around one 10. After two to three years of treatment, there was an average decrease of seven points. Oh

no.

With some individuals dropping up to 15 points, this was statistically significant.

The P-value was 0.05, so very significant. And the, the decline was attributed to interrupted puberty brain organization, particularly affecting cognitive maturation during sensitive developmental windows. No major differences were noted between GNH alone versus combined with gross hormone. Conclusion, the author suggest the IQ drop may relate to halted gonadal, steroid effects on brain plasticity, raising concerns for long-term GRNH use in precocious pubity.

However, no consistent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, this is really bad. This is really bad.

Simone Collins: I’m glad you read that off though, because I would never, I wouldn’t have connected the two, like if we had a daughter with precocious puberty and we’re like, ah, like this is too soon. I [00:29:00] could see us getting possibly tempted to,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, all the doctors, they’re telling you there’s no risks to this stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah, exactly. So I’m really glad that you pointed that out ‘cause we’ll be like, Nope, let it happen.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So let’s look at the Schneider ETL 2017 case study on gender dysphoric adolescent.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So this is one person. No, the other study actually had a fairly decent sample size as well. 30 children for a study like that is insanely large.

Oh yeah.

Let’s look at this one, which is on a one, one child. Okay. Brazilian adolescent. Okay. The patient was an 11-year-old at baseline, assigned male at birth, transgender girl diagnosed with gender dysphoria put on A-G-R-N-H agonist, similar to, you know, what they’re giving sheep and what we give children at baseline.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Key findings, global IQ dropped from 80, low average to 71 borderline. This, this is borderline retarded.

Simone Collins: Oh boy.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry I didn’t, you can make a

Simone Collins: bad situation worse. This is not good.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s not just in, in [00:30:00] normal intelligence persons. This hits everyone. A, a 10 point decline in 28 months.

Working memory indexes fell from 83, low average to 68, extremely low. At T one at 15 point drop then recovered slightly to 74, putting them in the, again, the borderline mentally impaired category. At T two processing speed declined overall 68 to 74 to 64. These changes were linked to testosterone.

Other findings brain, white metal fractional sphe showcased no maturation increase. Unlike typical male puberty, possibly due to absent testosterone driven changes. Voice fundamental frequency fluctuated, but stayed in the female typical range correlating with hormone levels. No deepening occurred.

W conclusions puberty suppression may impair cognitive maturation, EG IQ in memory and brain development in adolescence with gender dysphoria pointing to testosterone’s role in neuroplasticity. The authors noted low baseline IQ may have amplified actually I would think that it would dampen the effects.

So it is [00:31:00] interesting that it, you know, you see the same level. And note here, this. This case study is showing nearly identical results to the previous study, which would’ve had an average of like around 10 point drop. Yeah. And this is showing around a 10 point drop. It’s not like out outside of the bounds of what we’re seeing from other studies in this subject.

Yeah.

All right. Let’s go to the Van Goen, Atal 1995 cross-sex hormone studies. I don’t, I, I, I dunno if our audience likes this. Do you guys like learning about science and the science? They don’t tell you in school because it’s just too naughty to know. Let us know in the comments. Well, I, you know, if you are surprised and you’re like, wait, if things are really this bad, like the people who are doing these, these.

Hormone treatments are, are genuinely monstrous, right? Yeah, yeah. And telling people that this has no effect. And you can just start this back up again. And what I would note here is look at our Joe Money episode, our John Money episode on the history of this field and how it started. And what you’ll learn is this is actually fairly normal for this field and has been for a long time.

Simone Collins: Yeah, people have [00:32:00] agendas and they’re willing to say whatever they wanna say. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I don’t think it’s, it’s that they always have agendas. Sometimes I think they started for the right reason. And now to acknowledge that this stuff is true would severely like cause them to reflect and be like, oh my God.

All those people I thought were the bad people, were actually the good guys. And I had been mutilating children for decades. And I note here what I, what I find really. Chuckle about this is this hormone that we’re talking about this being given to these, these minors Often this is the same hormone that when a kid in the nineties or eighties presented as the other gender where they would’ve been sent to a gay conversion camp and given these hormones.

So literally the left is now doing what right wing extremists used to do. And I don’t oppose them because I switched sides. I oppose them because my perception had been consistent. You shouldn’t be taking kids and putting them on puberty blockers, you know, whether you’re a Christian conversion camp or whether you are some weird trans movement.

Right. Anyway, [00:33:00] van Gogh and Etal 1985 cross, cross-sex hormone studies on activating the effects of cross-sex hormones in trans. Adults focusing. Oh, this one is looking on adults focusing on cognitive behavior and shifts. What this one found was so they use 35 female to male trans individuals starting testosterone and 15 male to female trans individuals.

Okay. So

Simone Collins: this is our first one where we’re not looking at puberty blockers. We’re looking at,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. We, they were tr tested before three months after hormone initiation. So what did they find? A female to male testosterone showed improved performance, eg better 3D accuracy and male to female on estrogen and androgens declined in their spatial ability.

So here what you’re seeing is just their brains changing from a male brain to a female brain.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And the role that testosterone plays in being a better shape rotator. Right.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, this is something we know men are better at spatial reasoning, right? Totally.

Mm-hmm.

And so when you give a woman.

Nail hormones. They become better at, at shape rotating when you give them [00:34:00] a and I’ve seen this actually with a lot of coders because that requires a, a lot of knowledge that is adjacent to facial reasoning. Mm. And I had a friend I used to know ages ago, and I they have a small YouTube channel that not many people watch, but they transitioned.

And one of the, the shows that I found very interesting, it was. An hour and a half grant, if I remember correctly. So I, I spent a lot of time going through this and learning about this, but they were complaining that as they transitioned into a woman people started to respect their opinions less in, in coding, and started to listen to them less and started to treat them as an authority less and less.

Hmm. And of course, they interpreted this as oh, anti female bias. Anti female bias. But when I was reading it e even at the time, like listening, listening to them talk about this, I just kept thinking, it sounds like you just got bad at coding as you went through gender transition. And they had never considered this.

It was very clear that it had never even entered their mind as a fleeting thought that what [00:35:00] might have happened is that their brain was changing and that they were no longer as good at the things they used to be good at.

Mm-hmm. And so

this is one of these areas where you’ve gotta pay extra attention even if you’re not getting an overall IQ decline because you’re doing it as an adult.

Is your profession and specialization in something that your gender has helped you achieve? Verbal fluency, females to males, it deteriorated fewer words generated on time tasks, males to females improved these shifts. Line was mascul, testosterone versus feminizing estrogen patterns. Now note here is this would indicate that the males who transitioned to females like the wachowski should have gotten better.

At like writing verbal stuff, right? Good dialogue.

Yeah,

yeah. Or the, the writers for veil guard, but they got worse. So I don’t know if I buy this right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. What’s going on

Malcolm Collins: there? Well, the, the very least of your a coder, you shouldn’t be looking at doing this. So, other effects increase aggression and sexual arousal in female to male.

Decreases in male to female. [00:36:00] So it’s so interesting. Male to female, decrease. Aggression in sexual arousal in male to female, increase aggression, sexual arousal. By the way, one person asked me, they were like, how can I, like, I feel trapped in wanting to have sex as a man. I wanted to transition. So they wanted to transition mostly just to decrease how aroused they were all the time.

Right. Oh, interesting. Now they wanted sexuality. Yeah. And I was like, naltrexone buddy. Yeah. Naltrexone. Naltrexone. Naltrexone. Take naltrexone, then masturbate. And you will within a week not wanna masturbate or have sex anymore. It’s, it’s very effective. There you go,

Simone Collins: guys.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah, and you can get it from like Indian providers and stuff like that.

I’m not saying you should, obviously not medical advice. Yeah. This is not medical

Simone Collins: advice. This is not an endorsement, but. It works

Malcolm Collins: and it actually has a bunch of other positive benefits that, like, it protects against COVID. I’ve, I’ve still yet to get COVID. So, you know, there, there’s, there’s many benefits to Naltrexone.

It’s bizarre.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It makes you eat less, like [00:37:00] it’s been trivially easy for me to maintain my diet since I started it. And it prevents you from being happy. So that’s really good too.

Simone Collins: Phew. Because you don’t

Malcolm Collins: want that to corrupt your motivational profile.

Simone Collins: No, God forbid.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Other effects. The, the, the blah, blah, blah, blah.

Okay. So let’s, let’s look at what might be causing this. ‘cause this I find really interesting. Like, it is a, it is a fascinating phenomenon, and obviously in mainstream society you’re not allowed to talk about it. You know, in the same way. We can’t say certain groups are, you know, less intelligent than other groups or whatever, right?

Like, that doesn’t exist. But it’s just so replicated in the research that it’s, it’s worth talking about.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So puberty triggers surges in estrogen slash testosterone, which reorganize neural circuits via synaptic pruning, myelination and hippocampal amygdala growth suppression, halts, this potentially stunting executive function memory and IQ maturation.

Animal mechanisms included alter dopamine, serotonin signaling, and reduced neuroplasticity hedges. [00:38:00] Etol 2018 from cross-sex hormones. Testosterone activates androgen receptors to enhance spatial cognition, possibly via right hemisphere dominant estrogen may boost verbal areas, but suppress spatial ones.

No clear mechanism for overall iq. Drop is clear here, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, dots Simone, before I go further.

Simone Collins: It, it seems clear that the effects are different for if you’re just going on puberty blockers versus as an adult supplementing with estrogen or testosterone, so that’s really useful to know.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So let’s go into the studies that claim that this isn’t a thing. Okay. So A, and this is one of the most frequently cited studies in this space. A 2022 study by Vander Moyen etal on 72 transgender adolescents, including puberty suppression, showed pre-treatment iq, strongly predicted post-treatment educational achievement.

Odds ratio 1.7 per [00:39:00] IQ point matching general population norms, suggesting no negative interference from the treatment. So this guy says no negative interference, okay? Mm-hmm. So. Who was the guy who published this? Every single one of the authors of this were affiliated with the center of expertise on gender dysphoria at Amsterdam, UMC in the Netherlands, a major clinical center providing gender affirming care to use.

Dave Vernes is a prominent figure in transgender use care and co-developer of the Dutch protocol. The guy who literally invented the Dutch protocol. For people who don’t know what the Dutch protocol is, that is the idea that when somebody is experiencing gender dysphoria now typically any form of dysphoria, if somebody is like body dis, dis dysmorphia dysphoria around like weight, like they’re anorexic you don’t treat anorexia by telling somebody to go on a diet.

Right? Right. Like that’s like. Crazy thing to do. You know, you try to work them through that this is a delusion that they’re having and that they will be much more satisfied in the long term if they can get on the other side of this delusion that they’re having. The Dutch method [00:40:00] was the idea, and keep in mind this was a.

F*****g crazy idea that you, you should engage in this one form of dysphoria and only this one form of dysphoria by affirming it, even though it’s not true, even though they’re not actually women or men by affirming it and then trying to transition them into that. So the guy who developed. One of the guys who developed that was one of the people who wrote this and he was co-chair of, or might have been a, she, the WPAs Adolescent Center care for an author of numerous studies supporting it.

So I’ll note here. If you don’t know who the WPATH is or the WPA files there’s a huge leak from them. They basically showed that they were lying to the public and they knew they were lying to the public about transgender care. Some of the really chilling stuff is them saying that kids do not understand the consequences of what they’re doing.

And they’re like, should we like not do this? And then they said, well, they can always just transition back later. Later. You know, oh, right.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: So it’s better just to do it anyway. Like it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. This’ll never be able to reproduce. It doesn’t matter that they’ll have all these [00:41:00] effects.

I got, I got paid money. Cash money, right? These people, these people are living large. You can make a lot of money. It’s

Simone Collins: basically a cigarette company says smoking cigarettes is fine solution.

Malcolm Collins: It literally is like that. It is literally a cigarette company saying cigarettes are the best. This is it. It’s funny that you say that, but I think that many people will see the entire, a lot of the trans.

Science right now that’s coming out of these centers that are doing the gender transitions for youth as very much the equivalent of, you know, with the, you know, the leaks and stuff that we’ve had with the coverups that we’ve had, like the coverups that giving kids puberty blockers with increasing the risk of unli and, and, and ideation and self-harm outta Travis stock.

That, that this stuff was being covered up is very much a, the cigarette companies situation.

Yeah.

A 2023 study. Oh, sorry. A, a, a study by Knowit at all on older trans adults long-term GHT 20 to 30 years found trans woman scored lower on processing speed memory and [00:42:00] crystallized intelligence versus cisgender peers.

But this was explained by depressive symptoms and not hormones. Trans men showed minor memory deficits versus cis women, but none versus cis men. So I’ll note here, even the individuals who are trying to like stand this. Right. Or like, oh, oh yeah, there was a pretty big drop, but it was due to depression.

So let’s go into this a bit more. Right? How, how much did it drop transgender women compared to cisgender women? The regression coefficient showed processing speed drops. This is male to female transition. Dropped by 52%. 52%. That’s enormous. And, and hormone related variables such as male estriol levels and the duration of gender affirming hormone therapy, GHT, which further verted that hormone, were not the direct cause.

So basically what they did is they were then like, okay, how much does people decrease when they’re depressed on these tasks? Well, let’s associate that because these individuals seem more depressed. Here’s the problem with that. Do you remember the animal [00:43:00] studies? What, what did, what did, what did puberty blocking males do to their behavioral profiles?

It made them depressed and anxious.

So you can’t say

that the depression that they were experiencing wasn’t downstream of the treatment itself. In fact, animal models are congested, is downstream of the treatment itself. Mm-hmm. So, you, you see, let’s, let’s look at trans women, for example, versus, versus cisgender women.

You have information processing speed. You had a moderate decline epistemic memory. You had a large decline and crystallized intelligence, you had a moderate decline. Trans women versus cisgender men. Here you have information processing, a small decline, episodic memory, a moderate decline, a crystallized intelligent, a moderate decline.

And then in trans men, they showed only minor deficit in episodic memory versus cisgender women. And no significant difference in episodic memory versus cisgender men. No notable declines in other domains. Now note here, I actually believe this for trans men. And the reason I believe this is if they’re [00:44:00] getting all the benefits that males have overall to like intelligence and informational processing they are likely going to benefit even if there is a net drop.

Yeah, because the transition itself,

Simone Collins: I could see that too.

Malcolm Collins: And then, okay, how believable is this particular study? Right? Because the first one you can basically throw out the, the guys who did this study, a, a, a 2020 meta study by Kei Atal found no adverse, oh, sorry. This is a separate study I’m gonna talk about.

So a, a separate study at 2020 Meta analysis by Kei at call. 10 studies on 3 84. Transgender young adults found no adverse cognitive effects from GH HT instead vi geospatial ability improved in versa, science females, trans men with moderate effects on hedges, verbal working memory trended better in birth science stuff.

So can you trust us? Can. And this is the one where I’d be like, I actually maybe can’t trust this guy. You know why I trust this guy? Because in 2011 Jonathan, what, what Jo Johansen, or one of the people associated with this looked at a long-term follow-up study on trans people’s Postex reassignment surgery, which reported [00:45:00] higher onli rates and psychiatric morbidity rates compared to the general population which is often cited in, in critiques of gender affirming care.

So it’s thoughts. Hmm.

Simone Collins: Not a great look. I mean, in general it’s worse than we had previously thought. We thought in the video we did on the Wachowski effect, that this was just, you know, a, a, a, a problem of people now dealing with a totally new world perspective and hormonal profile and hormonally based strengths, which are hard to adjust to, which means you might need to change your career and your strengths are gonna be different and your weaknesses will be different.

This is showing, it goes a level beyond that, but especially if you do puberty blockers, you’re going to risk irreversible cognitive impairment and some other irreversible negative effects. Not good.

Malcolm Collins: If you’re wondering why this would happen in adults that, that are doing this. Mm-hmm. Here, I would say so it does appear from these studies very clearly.

Like you, your brain becomes more male like or [00:46:00] female like based on these treatments. Yeah.

With,

with trans men, men who are female to male they, they appear to improve on visual-spatial and decline on verbal and then male or female to male you get or the opposite, the other way around Anyway, so, so you are getting a more male, like, or female, like a brain, right.

The problem is, is that the, the wider structures around your brain and even the way that your brain, it’s. Self is set up, is not designed to be a good male or female brain. Mm-hmm. So if I was going to give an alternative example of this, suppose you took a woman and you wanted her to be really good at things that men are really good at, like, let’s say weightlifting, right?

So you say, but look, with science I can make her like a man, right? Mm-hmm. I can pump her full of. Drugs that cause her muscles in her arms to grow really big. And I can I and, and you know, give her all the testosterone so it makes her, her arms look more [00:47:00] manlike, you know, better at manlike things.

And then she goes to a tournament and her arm, her bones shatter, you know, her, her, her, her joints stop working. You know, they’re not designed. To be that way. Mm-hmm. They were not built to be that way. It’s not just one system. You can go in and change one system, but if the foundation was made for a female body, no matter what you do, you’re not gonna be able to transition because they, they went through their entire developmental cycle to try to end up in this one particular, and, and at the end of the day, what is all this for?

It’s for self-affirmation, but why do you live, you live to try to make the world a better place and to try to make the future of humanity better. Right? Well, we

Simone Collins: do not. Most people to be fair. Well, I

Malcolm Collins: think, you know, it’s not hard to find a meaningful purpose in life and you, your life will be so much better if you live for something bigger than yourself.

You know, agreed. And you know, you could do this through religion or you could do this through just trying to be better, trying to make the world better. But [00:48:00] anything you do that is a chase for affirmation will always shatter you at the end of the day because you are personally experiencing all of the positive things that you believe the world has.

In, in your life. What, what I’m saying is if your life is measured by your subjective experience of your life, then you personally feel the core benefit of your life. And it is very clear to you that it’s just not that good. You know? There, there’s, there’s, there’s, you’re always gonna be chasing more. If you wanna see what this does to an individual, what it feels like to sort of go through gender transition and what the daily life of an individual is like.

After this is go to our life of a Cina Byte episode where we go over the story of Anna Valen. ‘cause it’s very well documented on her blog. And you can see the constant search for affirmation and then the constant thinking that, that, that they finally found it and then it’s slipping through their hands like sand.

Because it reminds me of I was gonna say gender [00:49:00] transition. It reminds me of a, a raccoon with cotton candy. You know, they, oh, when they try to wash it, they try to wash the cotton candy and then it disappears in the water and they ah, they like search the water. Where did the cotton candy go? I had this delicious cotton candy in my hands.

Oh, thanks.

Malcolm Collins: It’s like you’ve got this delicious life. And then you transition, right? You, you, you put it in the water and then it’s gone. And

Simone Collins: pretty sad.

Malcolm Collins: It is pretty sad. But I think you know, fortunately there’s a lot of detransition out there now. It’s very common phenomenon. It’s becoming more and more common, and there’s gonna be a lot of pushback against this movement which we’re already seeing.

It’s, it’s, it is very normalized at this point. And it’s sort of, shattering because of the, the, and I didn’t know this stuff. I didn’t know that, you know, early on I was protran. I was like, yeah, this seems. Innocuous, just delay puberty, whatever. Right? Like, ‘cause I hadn’t looked at the [00:50:00] research, right?

Mm-hmm. Or I just believed when they’re like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, would we really be doing this if we permanently just cause problems to children? And it’s like, okay, well now I know the whole Joe money thing. Yeah, you guys would,

Simone Collins: yeah, but we had no

idea.

Malcolm Collins: No idea. Yeah.

Simone Collins: And it just wasn’t well researched.

So well, I

Malcolm Collins: mean, this research, a lot of this was out back then. I just didn’t think to look, you know, I just sort of didn’t realize how little the left at this point in the urban monoculture cared about evidence and facts anymore. And they had moved to become a culture that was completely just dedicated to the agenda.

Which is self-affirmation and a search for, you know, personal pleasure and not admitting that they’ve done anything wrong.

Simone Collins: Depressing.

Malcolm Collins: I still haven’t really seen them walk back Latinx, like talk about not ever admitting that you, I think that’s been

Simone Collins: dropped for the most part. I think it has gone way down for, look up the Engram [00:51:00] viewer.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, what? Whatever happened to Latinx? I mean, I love it if they had like an apology to the Latin American community for

Simone Collins: lax. Oh no. Okay. Well,

Malcolm Collins: it’s exploding. I only have

Simone Collins: until 2022. But it just skyrocketed around. Yeah. Like basically non-existence in 2010, and then it just started to skyrocket after that.

But it might be leveling off. If I

Malcolm Collins: [email protected]

Simone Collins: and we can, and we look at lettings for all time

or at least 2004 to present. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s going down. So in Google. It starts to spike up after 2016. It sees its height in September, 2020 when the world was bonkers, and it [00:52:00] has slowly eased down since then. Now in July of 2025, we’re at about the same level it was at in 2018. And it looks like it’s trending back downwards.

So the healing, the healing is happening. Malcolm. It’s happening. The, the mimetic market correction will be complete soon.

Malcolm Collins: Love you. Esmo Day.

Simone Collins: You too. I, oh, that was fascinat. Lots of people watch Malcolm and your mother from wherever she is. I can’t hear you. I’m sorry. Your mic is not connected. She’s screaming. Put product in your head.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. That is, that is what I always heard from her.

Simone Collins: Put more product in your hair. It might have been said to you more than anything else from her, maybe even more than I love you.

Oh, certainly more, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: More product in your hair,

Simone Collins: but get this, okay, so there, this article came out with [00:53:00] Bloomberg titled Korean Companies Pay Employee, huge Sums to Have More Kids. And I was like, oh, what, like a $5,000 bonus or something? Right? Like some, like something akin to what the United States said.

Some, you know, someone had proposed to the United States, but no. So Booo Young Company, a construction company offers 10,000,001 per baby to employees. That’s about $72,000. Craft an Inc. A video game developer, $43,000 at birth and an additional 29,000 in installments until the child turns eight. It also provides in-house daycare as open as Lady 9:30 PM emergency babysitting coverage for parental leave, and protections from career penalties for taking leave.

Korea Aerospace Industries offers 7,000. Hey, if the people

Malcolm Collins: who run these companies are heroes, you know, they’re doing what they can to save their resident group, right?

Simone Collins: $22,000 for the third child.

Malcolm Collins: O we’d be, we’d be raking it in with these companies. [00:54:00]

Simone Collins: I know, man, like we’re in the wrong country. But

Malcolm Collins: back to Korea with you, they wouldn’t like that.

‘cause they’re like, well, you know, you’re white, you’re not really, this isn’t the point.

Simone Collins: I know. Yeah. I, I wonder if there, there may be racial exemptions, but I, wow. I mean

Malcolm Collins: the the chili that you made, by the way, is absolutely fantastic.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Did you put in the more chilies yesterday?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I sauteed them so they’d get a little toasty and then I, you know.

Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they, yeah. I mean, we’re ready to do it tonight, but I would still leave the main batch for another day because the meat needs to break down a bit more.

Simone Collins: What’s the spice level like? Do you want more sauteed chilies in there? Maybe it’s

Malcolm Collins: slightly more, it depends on if you want some of this too.

Simone Collins: Nah.

Malcolm Collins: Mm. You’re missing out, sweetheart. She on chili. You don’t even like chili.

Simone Collins: I don’t know. I just. Nothing tastes good right now. There there’s no, there’s no space for anything. So everything I eat, I have to be really careful about it because it just like, it, it [00:55:00] can only fit in this very small area. And then if one of our children like hugs me or punches me in the chest, it just comes right back up.

So

Malcolm Collins: I love it that they punch as much as they hug. They, they just come up and, and, and sock us.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or like headbutt you and I. Feel like the chili is gonna be a little more acidic with all the, the tomato base in it. I’m not ready for that to come back up. It’s gonna hurt too much.

Malcolm Collins: You are an amazing woman, Simone.

Well, it’s it’s very good regardless.

Simone Collins: Good. I’m so glad it turned out you were like, I, I was surprised when you said you were jonesing for chili. It’s so non. Foreign, but of course you put in Thai chili peppers and Indian spices, so, and MSG, it’s not exactly,

Malcolm Collins: you need MSG in everything. You need MS, G and chili of course.

Simone Collins: Yeah, you do.

Malcolm Collins: And for non foreign foods, chili is a really good one.

Simone Collins: No, it’s, it’s fantastic. It’s

Malcolm Collins: fantastic. Hmm. And it’s not served nearly enough. This is another thing about chili. [00:56:00] You know, you really can only get it in like specialized locations, I think, because even if a restaurant did serve it, you wouldn’t consider it a main course, even though, you know, it takes as long to prepare as a main course and it, it, if you eat it, you’re not gonna eat a main course.

Yeah. It’s so hardy. So you pay less for it. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You can’t make it like your soup starter, because then that would fill people up. But you can’t serve it as a main dish ‘cause people don’t like soups or stews as main dishes.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: It’s more of a family kind of. Dish,

Malcolm Collins: but it requires multiple days of cooking if you’re doing it well, like I, the first, when you send me the chili recipes, they were all like ground meat.

And I was like, what are you doing to me, woman? Ground meat chili. You’ve got to slow cook stuff until it falls your

Simone Collins: apart. Yeah. Even when I looked up slow cooker recipes though, their assumption is slow cooker. Oh, you mean like six hours? You’re like, no,

Malcolm Collins: no, like three days is is how long we cook actually.

What are you, what are you looking at? You just had an idea.

Simone Collins: N no, I’m, I’m just, [00:57:00] no,

Malcolm Collins: baby.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I am. Sorry.

Simone Collins: It’s all good. It’s, it’s all super good.

Malcolm Collins: Hmm. Hey, you’re committing to doing this more. I, they wanna, you know, get your full story. We’ll see. Committed to

Simone Collins: the bit, as they say,

Malcolm Collins: committed to the bit.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: All right. All right. Let’s get started on this one.

Speaker 3: What happened? Oh, I’m twisting and tied them, my God. And not in their bed. Well, let’s go see. Yeah. Go at me. I’m following you. Go. Go. Okay, go. Let’s go.

Do you think Krampus took them? Yeah, I think so. But they were not [00:58:00] bad. They were not bad. Yeah. So they were good kids.

Do you think we’ll ever see them again? I don’t know. That’s the way to lie for Wait. I know you put somewhere. Oh, the camera. Camera. I put a camera, right. So we should check the camera footage. Yeah, I know, I know. There is a camera somewhere right there watching that bag. So that do not I was the coin. You can use that camera.

I have an idea. Octavian recording tonight to do the video. Okay. Okay, let’s think through this last night when you went to bed and you had dinner with daddy. Were they here? No. No. Is it, so where were they? I think, [00:59:00] right. I, uh, Hey, we can just still watch the FRI recording. Where Yeah. But they weren’t here when you went to bed, right?

Speaker 4: Yeah. So where were they? I think they, um. I was a little sleepy before. So do you think maybe they’re at Stacey and John’s? Um, can you call Stacey and John and tell them if they’re there, then Okay. Now call Stacey and John because you think that they’re good kids like Titan and Toasty are pretty good.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And Krampus wouldn’t take a good kid. Yeah, they would take bad kids.

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive deep into the pitfalls of extreme manosphere ideology, the “wife guy” meme, and the real dynamics of modern relationships. This episode explores the breakdowns of high-profile marriages, the dangers of performative masculinity, and the importance of emotional control and partnership in marriage. With personal anecdotes, cultural analysis, and a touch of humor, Malcolm and Simone challenge toxic narratives and offer practical advice for building healthy, functional relationships.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the way in which women reduce you and all of your creative and adventurous impulses and render you to a headless quote unquote husband. The ideal husband has put aside in his ideals, all dangerous ideas. The meme term for this is the wife guy. I have seen many men who are already quite mediocre in spirit, debase themselves to a level of slavery for their wives and children. But the point here being is he sees this wholesome marriage and I think many people downstream of the manosphere and everything like that have come to see a wholesomeness, like a wholesome, sweet loving couple as, as a form of humiliation. They, they see it as humiliating to the man because it’s not what Andrew Tate sold them masculinity was.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello. I am excited to be here today. Today we are gonna be going over how some people are so red pilled, they cut themselves. And it is. A problem that I see [00:01:00] consistently within parts of the manosphere where individuals develop an idea of manhood and what it means to be a man, which is incompatible with tolerable women wanting to be married to you.

Simone Collins: Tolerable. That’s the key point. Tolerable women,

Malcolm Collins: right? And so, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll go out there and they’ll just be like, women are always like a drain on their husband and like, make their lives worse. And I’m like, like, clearly that’s not the case. Like you’ve, you’re an awesome wife. You, you do way more of both your share of the professional and housework.

You you know, are pregnant with kid number five right now, which you do with a plum. You’re only worried when the kids might have some sort of health issue or anything. You, you know, cook meals with family like clearly, and people hear her talk. She doesn’t, she. You do nag me. I, I will say you do nag me.

Not a lot more recently. But not in a way that’s like her trimester

Simone Collins: doesn’t yield great emotional control if we’re this year, yeah. I remember this from

Malcolm Collins: last time you were [00:02:00] this, this pregnant and she’s really sorry. Yeah. And it really only happens when she has genuine justification, like she’s doing far more of the workload on something than I am.

Note here, , she just gave birth to our fifth kid who is Healthy Tex. , She is with Tex in the hospital yesterday. She gave birth to him, , by her fifth C-section. So very dangerous surgery. We’re very, , grateful that it all went well. , And I am at home playing with our oldest as she recovers in the hospital.

So that’s how intense she is about this.

Malcolm Collins: But the point I’m making here is like, clearly good women exist, right? The problem is, is that if I acted the way that many of these manosphere influencers told me to act, women like Simone would not want to marry me or be around me. And so when these men say all women. Who exists like a wall or whatever, all winner like that have, you know, these, these character traits.

And I’m like, well, I don’t see that in the women that I’ve dated in the past or that [00:03:00] I’m married to. What they’re really saying is the way I act filters for women who act like this. And unfortunately, a lot of these ideas can come out of this, this wider community that we’re a part of. And lead to, we’re gonna go a bit into like

Steven Crowder’s marriage breakdown.

We’re gonna go a bit into Laura Southern’s marriage breakdown. Oh boy. We’re, we’re gonna go a but we’re gonna go all at this from the framing device of an essay. By deep at left analysis, which is a extensively a left wing guy.

But when you begin to hear this article, you will immediately be like, that sounds not leftist at all to me. So like culturally, it’s clear where this came from and I think it’s one of the best examples of this, where he literally argues that he’s gay for like manos fear reasons.

Simone Collins: So he’s the political lesbian of men of, [00:04:00]

Malcolm Collins: I guess, yes.

Simone Collins: That’s crazy. Okay, we gotta get into this. ‘cause I didn’t, I don’t know. I, I figured that women would be political lesbians because in general women are more attracted to dominance versus submissions and care relatively to men, a lot less about primary and secondary sexual characteristics, whereas men are a lot more sensitive to that.

So I just thought like, well, women are political lesbians because they can be. But, but,

Malcolm Collins: but here, what you’ll see, and you’ll hear in what he’s saying is within like the Bronze Age pervert sort of a mindset or something like that. Mm-hmm. He’s signaling something to our community that you would understand is sort of like a, you know, gorilla punching his chest, being like, I, I so manly.

I know words. I know how to say them. And it only works for signaling your status to other men. It repels women. And yet people misunderstand and think that this is actually the way they need to be acting or talking about women. Tra [00:05:00] women are materialists, but I also know if that he’s kind of right about stuff.

Simone Collins: Well, you can be right and end up being a cupped Yes. Political gay man. But continue. So trad women are materialists in the lowest sense of the word. Their goal in life is to identify a worthy male and then browbeat him into submission psychologically abuse him, neuter him, and castrate him. This is a very practical thing to do and a very safe and produces an effective slave society, but is devoid of idealism and heroism.

Malcolm Collins: Modern gaze are a radical extension of this feminine drive towards practical materialism. You see what I mean when I say he comes off as very right wing? Do, he really says he’s left wing again. What well sake about this, he’s attacking trad women here, right? Like he’s saying that trad women are materialists in the lowest sense of the word.

Their goal is to identify a worthy male, then browbeat him into submission. And for many trad women. [00:06:00] Yeah. That’s kind of what they are looking for. They’re not looking for a man they can empower, but a man that they can, in a way, enslave.

Simone Collins: Enslave. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: When I say trad women, he again, quoting him here. When I say trad women, I’m referring to Steven Crowder’s ex-wife, who claims that the highest duty of a man is to marry a woman and then do whatever she says.

Ms. Crowder is a parody of the trad woman, but she is only saying aloud what many trad women secretly already believe. So what did she actually say? Because first, you know, I wanna get the, the actual information here

Simone Collins: from the horse’s mouth.

Malcolm Collins: She posted on Twitter. The most alpha thing a man can do is marry and be faithful to a good woman for the entirety of his life and be willing to storm the greats of hell to stay married to her.

This was in response to a video by conservative commentator Matt Walsh, discussing marriage as supernatural generated significant backlash and discussion on X. We as many users, interpreting it as promoting an overly sacrificial and one-sided view of men’s role in marriage, though it does [00:07:00] not, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The, the point here being is she does appear to basically think that and a lot of people are aware of the Crowder and his wife breaking up, but I wanted to start talking about them to be like, this is the type of woman that a man who acts and presents like Crowder is able to, and keep in mind, Crowder is the height.

Of what this type of man is, right? Like presumably he’s gonna have his pick of the litter in terms of, of, of women who will tolerate a man like this. So if you are the very best of what this community can achieve, your outcome, and, and keep in mind that the alternative understanding here is, is Steven Crowder’s is just not a good guy or good husband, which may be the case.

We’ll get into that. But I think that many of his flaws as a partner came downstream of trying to emulate the philosophy of the red pill and [00:08:00] traditionalist version of what a male is. In a way that doesn’t work within a modern context. And it’s very important that we do not do that. Like our goal is not to signal to other people in the manosphere how tough and cool we are.

Our goal is to get married to somebody who wants to improve our lives and works every day to improve our lives and has lots of kids

Simone Collins: more, more. Actually our goal first and foremost is to maximize something we believe has inherent value, and we choose to find a partner because we understand that if you find the right kind of partner and form the right kind of relationship, you will be more collectively effective at maximizing that thing or that collection of things that you value than you would on your own.

Mm-hmm. It’s not even that your goal is to find a wife.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

, And, and I’ll note here. We often say like, you’re, you’re often not going to end up in a place better than the advice you’re getting from somebody. So if somebody is a leading figure in like the larger, wider [00:09:00] manosphere scene and they are giving out advice and they can’t keep a marriage past their first two kids that advice has a high probability of leading you to a similar endpoint.

Simone Collins: That’s fair. And even,

Malcolm Collins: and even if you say it’s the wife’s fault, which we’ll get into analyzing how much of it, ‘cause I do think a large part of it is the wife’s fault. He still chose and vetted her as a wife. And the way that he’s acting and the advice he’s giving will lead you to have a wife like that. Like, that’s, that’s all of our responsibility before we got married.

That’s, that’s what the dating phase is for. That’s what the engagement phase is for. People don’t become new people magically after, after that. I, I guess you can say that they tricked you the entire time, but often when I see these individuals, they haven’t been tricked. They were signaling that this is what they wanted.

The couple separated in 2021 after Steven left their home for elective surgery in June and did not return.

Now he says he did not return because he was working on his temper. He purchased a separate townhouse following the birth of their twins in August, 2021. So, when she, if [00:10:00] you’re buying

Simone Collins: a separate house to work on your temper, though, I don’t see, you know, this isn’t like. I’m gonna take a breather and work on myself for like a couple weeks.

You’re buying a house?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So while she was pregnant with the twins he basically abandoned her. And these were his first kids, right? So he’s not there for the. Pregnancy, which was incredibly complicated. In terms of the actually having the c-section, ‘cause she had a, an emergency C-section.

Well,

Simone Collins: even without an emergency c-section, pregnancy, the twins are tough and, and they’re very often born premature. It is not, it’s like the hard mode of both pregnancy, the newborn for

Malcolm Collins: them as young kids, you know, he’s not in the area. He says, well, I don’t believe in divorce. You know, I never would’ve gotten divorced except she filed for divorce in December and he hired his divorce attorney in November.

Now you can say he is doing this preemptively thinking that the divorce is going to happen. Mm-hmm. But it wasn’t when he knew that a divorce looked like it was coming down the tracks, he wasn’t all hands on deck. Let me go back to where she’s living because she has [00:11:00] multiple times asked me to come home and help with the twins and try to work something out.

It’s, I’m gonna hire a divorce attorney. Right. So whatever was in his mind was his mindset on this. It led to, to bad outcomes.

My actual read of what led to this is, is he had such a strong belief. Against divorce, like divorces just don’t happen, that he didn’t consider it a possibility as things were going off the rails in the relationship, and so he didn’t work to more quickly correct and address the way things were going off the rails.

Because I think that if you had considered divorce a possibility and you just really didn’t want a divorce, the last thing you would do is when your wife is pregnant with twins, buy a house in a different state and move there. , You, especially if she was asking you not to do that. So, , and then this is what I’m talking about where I’m like, be careful of these sorts of mindsets.

Like divorce isn’t a possibility because it can , , ironically lead to divorce.

Malcolm Collins: [00:12:00] In leaked ring camera video from June 26th, 2021. He berates her at demanding that she perform her wifely duties. But the problem is, is his demands were totally reasonable, like medicating and walking dogs tasks that she claimed she feared were unsafe during pregnancy.

Medicating dogs is not unsafe during pregnancy. Maybe walking

Simone Collins: dogs is if you’ve been ordered on bedrest and it doesn’t seem like he was very pregnant in her things. Plus, I, you saw, I’m sure you saw the footage. I saw the footage. Yeah, the, the famous Crowder ring cam footage. It looks, it’s bad. He’s just being a complete ass.

I think the, the bigger problem for me is I completely lose respect for people when they just angrily berate people. He, he could have said the same things like coldly and with emotional control, and I wouldn’t have had a problem with it it’s when people lose emotional control. That I just completely

Malcolm Collins: like. Well, and I think especially, and this is one of these things where it’s like, can I take her word for it? She does appear to have been being a bee, but keep in mind he [00:13:00] filtered for this, like his presence filtered for a woman who was a bee in the way this woman was a bee.

You know, he chose this based on his criteria of what a good woman is. The problem is that like a traditionalist criteria often lend themselves to finding individuals like this, right? But then also believing things like showing low emotional control is manly. So if we look at his work environment, for example multiple former employees, including at least five, who spoke anonymously, described a pattern of verbal abuse where Crowder would scream at staff and use derogatory language.

Simone Collins: How do people rise in their careers when they behave? So unprofessionally, especially these days. Well, I think because his career allowed him to rise through a sort of online fame where this stuff could be cut out you know, apparently he would yell at people in meetings and stuff like that. Now,

why would these people keep working for him?

Just ‘cause they thought he was making a lot of money.

Malcolm Collins: Often people need to support their families and that’s why, you know, because they’re getting [00:14:00] paid and, you know, but I, I note here that this is, if, if you wanna get like how inappropriate he was accused of repeatedly exposing his genitals to male members in a nonsexual, but harassing member matter such as walking like what in flashing staff as a joke.

There, there was drug related stuff, which I don’t care. And then it’s like, oh, and he had this NDA thing that was really strict, where you could be sued a hundred thousand dollars. I don’t care. People have a right to have NDAs, but yelling at employees you just fire them. If they’re not doing a good job, you just let them go.

Right? Like, I, I think that that for me is like a that somebody could think that that was a, nor like,

Simone Collins: yeah, if you respect your employees so little that you’re berating them, then you’re not a good match. If you’re berating your employees, it’s clearly not working, you should hire a different employee.

Same with a wife. If you have a wife who you’re berating, like, why did you marry them? It, it seems so odd to me.

Malcolm Collins: Well, well, it’s not just that, but I, I just think that this is something that he thinks is a normal way [00:15:00] for a man to act in public. Right. Or, or with his loved ones. And you know, if, if you’re like, oh, Malcolm, like, surely you sometimes yell at employees like Bru one of the fans of the show who a lot of people know on like Discord and stuff like that.

Bruno works for me on a project like you, you can ask him. I I do not I, I would, I, I can’t even imagine thinking it’s okay to yell at, at somebody who is working for me. And then when it comes to raising my voice was my wife. I would only do it if I had first communicated to her that something was dangerous for our shared goals and she was not listening or engaging with the information when it was communicated was out the emotional addition, right?

Like you should be able to control your emotions as an adult. I, I’d also note here that for me as well, the whole thing about saying I wanted to work on a marriage he, he described a marriage ending in divorce at the deepest of personal failure. It’s like, well, if you, if you feel that way, right?

Why [00:16:00] did you hire the lawyer instead of immediately going back and trying to fix things with her? Clearly she wanted to talk this out for a long period where you both left her and financially cut her off. Like you basically forced her hand in this. And I think that this is part of a breakdown that comes downstream of what we are being taught is normal in terms of how you source partners in a mano spheric culture.

And I think that we also saw this with Lauren Southern. So, was Laura Southern, the relationship deteriorated into what Southern described as abusive and toxic. She reported verbal abuse such as being called worthless, empathetic, daily, worthless, empathetic daily being locked out of the house and being.

Abandoned with her infant son for days. Sometimes in bad weather, that’s completely a non-issue if he had a job that took him out. But and being locked outta the house could have been an accident that she’s over doing. But being called worthless and pathetic by your husband [00:17:00] ever is a really big deal.

Like, as a culture, you should know to feel shame about that. Like we should be building a culture where a man would be horrified about anyone ever finding out that he called his wife worthless. Empathetic. Yeah. That

Simone Collins: sounds like Stanford prison experiment stuff. It doesn’t sound like what you would do to anyone who you wanna work with.

Like if you’re trying to, to torture and demoralize a, a victim at a black ops site, probably. But this, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. Like, could, could this be some misinterpretation of like military basic training? Like I have to break you down in order to build you up. Like what is this coming from? Where is the logic behind this?

Malcolm Collins: So I think within the type of manosphere content that was originally created by people like Andrew Tate this idea of being this growly, angry person became associated with masculinity that people began to confuse anger with [00:18:00] muscular.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And we’ll actually go into this because later in this piece that I’m gonna keep reading, the guy describes like what he doesn’t think masculinity is.

And it is the wife guy who a lot of people online have been making fun of.

Simone Collins: Who is this, like his username? The wife guy?

Malcolm Collins: No wife guy is like a meme these days. I’ll put a picture on screen of what a wife guy looks like. It’s a husband who genuinely loves and appreciates his wife. It’s the guy who you know, and there’s lots of memes about this.

Speaker: woke up one day. I’m a wife guy. A change from a playaways at the right time. You can never know how you grow in your life. Now all I talk about is how I love my wife. I can’t believe that I turned into a wife guy. Fries. Happy wife, happy life type . That’s a saying that I just came up with.

A lot of y’all love your wives, but I love her the most. I’m currently working on an anniversary post.

Malcolm Collins: Like, you know, the, the, the wife making demands that are [00:19:00] normal of wifes to make of their husband and the husband sweetly deciding to do it, right. Any subservience to your wife is often seen as a negative thing or any degree of capitulation or I even sort of say wholesomeness, like it’s, it’s, it’s being wholesomely, married.

Is not masculine to these people. And, and is that not true? You, you look downstream of the Andrew Tate’s world is being in a, a genuinely wholesome marriage, right? Like where every day, I mean, how many I loves yous do you think you get per day? For me, I

Simone Collins: 12 on average maybe?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Probably 12,

Simone Collins: 13. Something around conservatively speaking here.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. How many like genuine mean? How often do I genuinely like meanly criticize you?

Simone Collins: It’s been like two years since the last, so

Malcolm Collins: not frequently. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me a wife guy because I’m not asserting dominance over you constantly. Mm. I think a [00:20:00] lot of this came downstream of this obsession was dominance.

Whereas as the point of dominance then again though, like am I constantly trying to undermine you, is the leader of this family And it sounds like these women kind of are, but. You didn’t because you, when I was looking for you, and if you read our book, like the prag guided relationships, when you come outta that, you’re gonna find a wife like my wife.

Because you understand that what you’re looking for is somebody who respects you and respects your shared vision, right? Who isn’t trying to, I think a lot of this bad behavior comes down from the man seeing his life goal is filling a role, IE the role of the man or the husband and the wife’s role in goal in life is supposed to be, to be the wife.

You know, and if you see these as your individual roles in life, instead of making some wider change in society, raising good kids, everything like that, it’s much more easy for these sorts of incurable differences to arise and also you to not feel like a man when you subvert this man-like action for something potentially bigger.

Simone Collins: Hmm. So to [00:21:00] continue with the piece here, feminism by contrast, is a relief from slavery because the feminist with her short blue hair and unshaved armpits is less seductive, less deceptive, less effective, and entrapping. In ensnaring men feminists upon inspection are porn addicts with the desire to be choked and spanked and abused in all sorts of violent ways.

Malcolm Collins: This is degrading and unpleasant, but it is morally superior to the trad woman. There is a beautiful point. What if feminist are super anti-porn? I mean, I guess tra women are too, but where is he getting this? He’s talking about urban monoculture women. Not, oh,

Simone Collins: just like mainstream romance, novel readers, book talkers,

Malcolm Collins: green, blue hair, you know, polyamorous, et cetera.

But I, I, I. There is a biblical story where in a Jewish woman, I think her name is Ru Seduces, one of the many inner enemies of Israel. Notice I wouldn’t be getting my Bible this wrong. I’m quoting the guy here. While he is sleeping, he cuts off his head or drives a nail in it. I may be confusing two different stories here, but the Bible [00:22:00] is full of repetition, but the story is metaphorical for the way in which women will cut the head off your penis physically.

Then they will reduce you and all of your creative and adventurous impulses and render you to a headless quote unquote husband. The ideal husband has put aside in his ideals, all dangerous ideas. The meme term for this is the wife guy. I have seen many men who are already quite mediocre in spirit, debase themselves to a level of slavery for their wives and children.

Why sour grapes Much? Yeah. Why don’t you Google wife guy so you can get an idea of what’s being talked about here. .

Simone Collins: Oh, so just a husband is there for his wife and

Malcolm Collins: yeah, sort of unabashed enthusiasm for your wife and marriage and willingness to compromise and, and a desire to please her and, and be a, a good guy. God forbid. The ideology of of the wife guy is justified with the theology of Traditionalism, which states that God wants media, Christ to reproduce as much as [00:23:00] physically possible.

This is a gross and disgusting ideology, and its adherence deserve only humiliation, which they gladly receive. Washing and sucking toes, making themselves into fools, speaking in tongues, being fat, engaging in hysteria. Conspiracy theories about globalists having sex with 17-year-old prostitutes. Well, I mean, that’s not a conspiracy theory.

That’s. Something that, like on the record happened maybe we haven’t found everyone eng engaged with it, but it definitely happened. But I guess the point he’s making here is why should you even care? It’s 17-year-old prostitutes humility and humiliation for these people. Wait, your point is, as

Simone Collins: long as they’re being paid fairly

Malcolm Collins: well, he’s just like, they’re close to the age of consent and, you know, people really, I, I don’t, I can understand how somebody could just be like, whatever, you know?

It might not be my opinion, but I, I can understand, you know, where somebody is coming from. But the point here being is he sees this wholesome marriage and I think many people downstream of the manosphere and everything like that have come to see a [00:24:00] wholesomeness, like a wholesome, sweet loving couple as, as a form of humiliation. They, they see it as humiliating to the man because it’s not what Andrew Tate sold them masculinity was. It’s not, well, this sounds so

Simone Collins: similar to the feminist stuff we’ve read about marriage too, that it’s humiliating and degrading that, you know, I I this could easily have just been word swapped.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. For for being a woman. Yes. Then skipping part of the story here, humiliation before God is recognition that in any place at any time, you might become possessed and a slave to a higher power, which will compel you towards acts of insanity. For some higher purpose beyond comprehension, the most humble are the most open to salvation.

And these men are heroes. But the TRAs has reduced humility to the nine to five job changing diapers, all sorts of other petty humiliations, the TRAs worships, biological children and the wife, and most absurdly vain repetitions. And this is the [00:25:00] thing, I think it’s the type of guy who doesn’t wanna change his kid’s diapers.

Who sees this as, as making him no longer a man. Right. Like, well, and also like, if you really don’t wanna change diapers, you don’t have to. I mean, when’s the last time you’ve changed a diaper? It’s been years at this point. Honestly, it was only early with our first kid when we were sharing all of our roles.

And now you always do the young kids and I do the older kids. Yeah. Like there are ways, if you have concerns about specific elements of marriage or if you’re like, you know, I really don’t wanna be this kind of husband and I really don’t wanna, you know, when’s the last time you sucked my toes? Malcolm?

Simone Collins: Like, neither of us would consent to that at all. Like, I don’t know, I just like the, these things that he perceives as normal. But I think that they see it as a package. Yeah. They see the wholesome doubling husband on their wife. He must also suck her toes. He must also change the diapers. He must also, you know, they, they, they, they, they, because [00:26:00] they see life as not about in states, but about roles that you’re serving.

Malcolm Collins: Oh. They see some parts of a trope that they can apply to me and assume that I must be optimizing for the entire trope instead of just focusing on a higher goal. Which is, you know, obviously the advancement of human society and, and raising kids who can contribute to that and expand my genetic line.

But she is reframing as unmasculine, having and caring for babies. And, and it is true was in Andrew Tate world, baby care is deeply unmasculine, right? But it’s what the genetically successful people end up doing. I can actually

Simone Collins: see Andrew and Tristan. Really getting stoked to play with toddler or so.

Like crawl on or Yeah. I could see them secretly

Malcolm Collins: being pretty sweet and not wanting wrestling.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I think I, I could see them as being really sweet dads, but like, they would never let anyone know.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and that’s, that’s part of the point, right? Yeah. Like they don’t wanna and then skipping a bit [00:27:00] here the majority of people have always been lowly and evil.

And so marriage has always had this humiliating, ludicrous quality for them. But the masses are excluded from good history. And so when we learn of the Greeks and the Romans and the. R vs. And even the Israelites, we learn of marriages of a different quality. When we read about these ancient people, we see marriages, which did not inhibit the men who entered from into them, but inspired them to great deeds.

Specifically the Moha. Bharata demonstrates the way in which wives were one through contest, the s Marva. And in the Rahma, Rama competes a tour of duty, slaying the forest dwellers before he marries in the Odyssey. The attempts to court the wife of Odysseus all involve contestants and competitors, and Odysseus reclaims his throne by slaying all the suitors, the aristocratic form of marriage.

He didn’t

Simone Collins: have to, I mean,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, they thought he was dead, that that was being kind of Yeah. Truly on their part, but [00:28:00] it, it, it works. Okay. That’s morality of the time period. Somebody saying, on your wife, you gotta handle it, right? I mean, yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Let off some steam too. Why not?

Malcolm Collins: The aristocratic form of marriage involves contests.

There can be no marriage without it. The traditionalist concept of quote unquote marriage at 18 preceding any great deed or life risking, is a utilitarian, pragmatic, and mediocre inversion of form in the Aris. So I, I find that very interesting that he’s like, well, we don’t fight for marriage enough anymore.

Which I don’t dis I, I disagree with pretty strongly. I think finding a, a wife today is much harder than it was to find a wife in ancient Greece. I, I think that or, or ancient Israel or, or pretty much any other time in human history. Well, yeah, because also

Simone Collins: in the past, as people in our comments have pointed out like the average number of even potential partners, you know, people of the opposite sex that were around your age, maybe there were four, and, and, and you typically married someone who like lived within four miles of you, and these weren’t.

Dense [00:29:00] populations. These weren’t large. Well, I mean, finding

Malcolm Collins: a wife in today’s world is difficult. Like, like it’s, it’s a, and today it’s an needle and a half

Simone Collins: situation. It’s a mess.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You’re not, you’re not going out and fighting a war. You’re having to go out and date some of the most d depraved humans that have ever existed on earth.

Simone Collins: Yeah. One person, when we talked about the rise of marriage pointed out that maybe, maybe what’s going on is people have found out that dating culture today has become so aversive. Now marriage just seems so much better.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Make dating so bad. Marriages is better anyway. Yeah. So in the aristocratic form of marriage, the woman is judge of the contest.

Alternatively, she’s a victim of kidnapping, which itself is a ritualized context in which the noble man steals her away in his chariot, which is then chased by the police. And if he escapes, the woman is rightfully his. This is called the Nia, sacred among the tic people, but later demonized by the Dian priests.

Even if we see elements of contest in [00:30:00] modern society, what follows is a deviation. The ancient marriage of Arjun and Odyssey demonstrate a disregard of any norm of cohabitation. The idea that a husband and wife should share a bedroom is absent. The idea that they should share a house or even a country is neglected.

The purpose of a wife is to be impregnated and to raise children, which I agree you, you can do this today. You know, we don’t share, my wife and I don’t share a room or a bed. Her job is having kids. She has a kid a year, like she’s doing it. Okay. Like these women exist, you’re just not finding or making them.

Right. Well, that’s the point

Simone Collins: you made at the very beginning. You know, they’re not going to find the types of women they actually want.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. The, the way that they have constructed themselves would be repellent to a woman like you. Mm-hmm. You know, if a Steven Crowder like approached you on a dating app or something, would you date him?

Like would you even.

Simone Collins: No, and I, I dated people [00:31:00] who talked about being felons very openly

Malcolm Collins: there. What would be the, what would be the red flag that you’d be like, no, I’m not gonna date this traditionalist conservative. Like what?

Simone Collins: A a a lack of demonstration of intellectual engagement that comes from a place of not respecting me intellectually, plus anyone who were, were to berate me or belittle me.

Malcolm Collins: But he, he goes out to public campuses and debates people, like clearly he’s an intellectual. Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, we’ve met many people who, for whatever reason, and this includes some of the smartest people in the world who I don’t know what it is they can even have female coworkers that they, you know, respect intellectually and work with actively.

Simone Collins: But then as soon as they are romantically involved with someone, or they classify them as like, this woman I’m dating, suddenly they become this completely different class of person who’s only good for, [00:32:00] you know, having kids and, and being like, figure

Malcolm Collins: Oh yes. And it really messes up the person who we’re thinking of their life is completely effed up because of this.

Yeah. ‘cause they’ve, they seem to be unable to genuinely respect somebody who they are having sex with. Yeah. Like as

Simone Collins: soon as it’s, it’s, you know, like the, the heart emojis there, the Facebook official, like whatever it is. Like, it just, I don’t know. And, and so I, I think, you know, yes, I agree that, that Crowder is capable of intellectually engaging with people, I’m sure of all backgrounds and sexes and genders.

But I, I think there are just some men who think.

Malcolm Collins: I just don think the tra framing works. Like I do not think that that that quality women, well, and I don’t even think

Simone Collins: it’s tra right? I mean, like we know what, what historically has happened in most arrangements that are marriage adjacent, which is you have people forming long-term, logistical and economic family bonds.[00:33:00]

To survive because it, it increases their odds of making it to old age and having lots of kids and being safe and not dying or starving.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But the, the point here I’m making is, I think the thing that turns off women like you, and I think many people in the red pill need to be like diaspora, need to be aware of this.

Is, is is people may look at me and they’re like, you look soy or something like that. And what they, they, they often mean is, I’m not buying into this over trad framing of myself. And I think that what the trad man wants, unfortunately they also filter themselves out of, because the type of woman that wants to like intellectually support and, and help you, rather than be this kept trad dove.

Simone Collins: Here’s how I would put it. Instead, they are marketing as though they’re selling to Grindr. When they need to be selling to Bumble. They are, they, they think that they need to aesthetically for, if we’re talking about the aesthetic angle of it right [00:34:00] now, they’re doing a better job of appealing to gay men per this like red pill, masculine aesthetic than they are at appealing to women.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I are, look at this guy, this gay guy right here who’s like, I love this aesthetic.

Simone Collins: I mean, ‘cause it’s, it’s a great gay aesthetic. And I mean it’s, it’s, I, I can appreciate it from a technical execution standpoint, but I appreciate the same way that I appreciate excellent drag queen execution, if that makes sense.

Like, I don’t wanna bang it. And when you look at fan fiction and what tons of women online obsess over, it’s typically not the same body type that you see selling really well to gay men. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it’s true.

Well, and so to, to keep going here, the closest approximation to this idea today would be for a noble man to impregnate a woman, leave her and pay child support for 18 years with occasional [00:35:00] visitations.

This is the most aristocratic form of child rearing, not the domesticity imagined by the Travis. There is nothing noble about changing diapers. No amount of shaming or hysterics or threats of hell fire will change this. And, and that’s, that’s within his framing of, of nobility, like within his framing of masculinity, right?

His

Simone Collins: framing of trashy ability. Men weren’t seen as respectable when they had b*****d children who they were paying for.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But what he’s saying is you used to just like, have kids and then like you’d have staff to raise the kids or something like that. I, I cut out, I didn’t wanna go too far into this, but,

Simone Collins: oh, okay.

So he was implying there was marriage involved there.

Malcolm Collins: Something like that. I don’t know. Not that part really. I mean, look, look, he’s basically saying you cannot fit this image of masculinity I have while you are married and raising children in a healthy relationship.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that he’s saying it’s so clear cut here that you can maybe be shaken up enough to see what he, he means by this.

If, if you [00:36:00] are one of these people who bought into this and you’re like, oh, here, somebody’s just coming out and saying it. If we want to be masculine in this trads way that we’re being masculine the, the, the real maxing of that comes from not marrying at all and then just being gay.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It, it sounds like per this formula, if we’re gonna optimize, donate a ton of sperm, which you basically have to lie to do and never marry women.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.. Having thoroughly attacked the TRA vision of matrimony, I would like to go be good to also discuss the problems of modern gay and contrasted with the ancient Greeks.

Modern gays are weak, skinny, fat, obese, materialistic, fashionable, acne ridden, and diseased skinny fat. I’m sorry, have you, not all, not all. Not all, but most. Has he been to Provincetown recently or where is he looking? He goes, I went to a gay pride event in San [00:37:00] Francisco and all the men were fat, weak, disgusting, and old.

There were no handsome tweak bodybuilders. There was nothing erotic at all. It was like walking into the YMCA locker room was a bunch of naked hairy boomers. Yeah,

Simone Collins: that’s ‘cause no one goes to pride event anymore

Malcolm Collins: themselves before his body degenerates into that state. Now note here he’s arguing here that he’s a closeted gay man.

He’s not an openly gay man, but the the point here being is Simone, I think you’re remembering gay culture from when we were younger. I actually think it has deteriorated significantly, especially in the, the core center of the urban monoculture. ‘cause you could already see stuff like this. It’s a false, I disagree.

Simone Collins: Are gay friends who I follow on Instagram look, but they’re conservative gays? Are they? I’m pretty sure they are. Maybe they’re traditional Catholics. Oh, I’m, I’m actually referring to other gay friends. Oh yeah. And they’re all, all of them are, are hot and fit. So. I don’t know what to say.

Malcolm Collins: I think a lot of what we call normal gaze or hot and fit.

Then to skip a [00:38:00] bit more here. Most tram and modern gay are forms of slavery in the first case, tram enslaved society to the role of the mediocre, so that the median rules over the excellent adventurers are put to halt and domesticity rules overall. In some cases, it is possible to have some degree of tram, so long as exceptions are made.

Spain during the period of the conquistadors had somewhat normative trads among the lower cast, but also dedicated billions of dollars to the adventures of single men. Modern gay is a more severe form of slavery. Since there is no escape from the budgie, one cannot flee across the ocean and lay waste to foreign shores.

Budgie will come to you bearing human rights and no, he had a screed here about how buttigieg his marriage was too wholesome because he’s gay, married, and has kids. Oh, how dare he. He doesn’t like this. He sees this as unmasculine.

Simone Collins: So any, any form of, of marriage and having kids, any form of biological success is, [00:39:00]

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Well, and this is why I, I, I bring this up for our audience is to try to shake them out of this if they have bought into this version of tram. So that they don’t get trapped in one of these marriages where their partner doesn’t respect them. And instead of just trying to be the most housewife of housewife or the most husbandy of husband rather than work with them towards a common goal.

And then finally here, he says dot, dot, dot, because I took out a section here. This is still difficult since the mig tau and the red pillar is lie, and it is easiest to get married between 23 and 26, not at 33. This is very true. This is because most women prefer a partner was in two years of their age.

And by the age of 33, the dating market shrinks considerably to single mothers heartbeats, antisocial hags, and women who are forever who for whatever reason failed to attract and hold a mate during their prime years, 23 to 26 to date a younger woman. This requires overcoming certain hurdles. The kind of women who date older men are distinct from other women.

Whether this is good or bad, [00:40:00] I will not say here but young women, so I actually agree a lot with this advice. You need to marry young, young, young, young, young. It, I know it’s difficult, but the, the, the choice pieces women get taken off the market early. I mean, we started dating how old I, it was on the older end for me.

Simone Collins: I was 24 and you were 25.

Malcolm Collins: So we were you know, he said, you need to get married between 23 and 26. We were right there at the, the, the age range that he’s talking about, right? Like, this is when you have to lock it down. And if you look at my brother, it was when he was a freshman in college, right?

Like, in fact, I think about everyone in my family who’s married almost all of them started dating their partner before the end of college. It is very, very, very difficult to find somebody after that as a man, right? Like I understand the market dynamics tilt in your favor and you can get more random sex.

If you’re a three, 3-year-old, that’s fine. Yes, you can get more random sex but it is not with women you want to settle down with. And people just [00:41:00] don’t think well, and

Simone Collins: you don’t want to child. I, I think that’s no, but like people seem to miss that

Malcolm Collins: if you are a woman and you. Want kids, you’re gonna try to find a guy who will give you those kids, like as soon as you, you get on the market, right?

Because they’re dealing with a, a higher ticking clock and everything like that. Like if you are open to this sort of agreement, the types of things that you need to agree to, to get married as a woman some guy will have asked, Hey, are you okay with these concessions if you marry me before you are like 25.

Simone Collins: That’s what I wonder about. With Crowder though, like in terms of going back to the beginning and, and how his relationship fell apart, I feel like this is mostly downstream of them have v having very different expectations about what marriage was gonna be like and they just didn’t Yeah, I think they were both like, yeah, we’re rad conservatives, we know how to do marriage, right?

Divorce, under no circumstances, we’re gonna have a big family. And then because they didn’t [00:42:00] hammer out their terms, they didn’t have a marriage contract, they didn’t have agreements here. She is heavily pregnant with twins and believes that someone else should be, you know, feeding and walking the dogs, and that she should just be feet up in bed, relaxing.

And he believes that she should be feeding and walking the dogs and cooking dinner. And neither of those expectations and isolation is a bad thing. I mean, they’re valid expectations. The problem is they didn’t discuss them ahead of time. Yeah. And then they just got mad at each other for not reading each other’s mind and knowing that that’s, you know, how they came in.

So, yeah. Well, and then, and then he responds to her expectations with yelling and that Yeah. Like, that’s gonna fix anything down. The communication, because now you’re communicating with emotion rather than logic. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think a lot of this comes down to, yeah, not having a marriage contract. You know, the Pregnant Guide for Relationships Read it.

It’s one of our first books you can buy for like a dollar. The ebook version, it’s not expensive. So check it out. Also got audio books for that. But to finalize here, here he is giving young women advice, [00:43:00] but for young women, I will advise this. Do not seek older men. Consider Mark Zuckerberg’s wife.

She’s nothing special. If she had waited very long, she would not have had the opportunity to marry a billionaire. She was. Too much complication. She became a doctor and she went to Harvard. Nothing special, but she recognized his greatness when they were both young and she used her abilities to ensnare him.

And now they are secure. Buy your bananas while they’re green. Not when they are ripe. I have seen this with too many women as well, right? Like I, I, we have our younger female audience members marry young as well. You guys need to marry younger. And this is the advice I’ll be giving our kids. And I think all of us who are watching this and have kids, the advice and expectation should be, you should probably know who you’re gonna marry by 23.

Like that’s, that’s the window of when you need to start panicking. If you, if you hit 23 and you don’t know who you’re gonna marry, you have seriously effed something up. And a lot of our fans can be like, well, I’m older. What, what advice do you have for me? And I’m [00:44:00] like, well, this isn’t for you. A lot of our audiences like married and has, we still try, still try.

I try. Yeah. Obviously try. All you can do is try. But I, I mean, I see if, if you’re like, well, I’m a, you know, 25-year-old guy and I don’t need to, I, I can wait until no.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, no, that’s, that’s nonsense. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, because then we hear, we hear some of our, you know, if, if, if you, if you plan to be married, it’s okay to not be married and not have kids.

Like that’s fine, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maybe you’re just not meant to be part of the human race going forwards. Right? Like that’s, that’s a choice that we all get to make. I’m not saying you have to do this, but I’m saying don’t say I’m going to do this while taking actions that are out of line with what somebody would be doing if they were actually going to do this.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s fair. And I I have to say, I like in part, I read what he’s saying here and I’m like, you have been so incepted by this, that. [00:45:00] You have defined a good life, not as raising the next generation, but as filling a iteration of masculinity. But you’re not wrong to do it that way within the culture of the male internet right now.

Malcolm Collins: Like I can see how you came to these cultural norms and thought that they were good’s preaching a logical conclusion. It’s just very myopic. Yeah. And his advice is also not bad for people who aren’t him. He’s almost like, I missed the window here. Right? So this is my advice for people who missed the window, but if you didn’t miss the window here’s my advice for you, Mary Young, and be very disciplined in how you choose your partner.

Totally. Marriage advice I’d give here, by the way, for, for choosing someone you can know who you’re going to, like if some, you, you should, you date. The purpose of dating is vetting whether or not you want to be married to the individual. Right. Have kids with them. Spend your life with them. That doesn’t take five years to [00:46:00] do.

That takes a few months to six months to do. If someone’s been dating you for like, more than I’d say a year and they’re unwilling to commit to an engagement I would say that they’re not serious about it. And there’s a lot of reasons why somebody might be.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I feel like six months, if, if you’re looking to get married and you’re with someone at the six month mark, if you are not either, okay, I’m gonna break up with you now or we’re getting engaged, something is, is deeply wrong,

Malcolm Collins: deeply wrong.

The only caveat I would make on this is if you are very young

Simone Collins: oh yeah. If you’re like maybe 17.

Malcolm Collins: So my brother and his wife, he met her first day, freshman year of college. And they didn’t propose until. I wanna say sophomore or junior year? No,

Simone Collins: no, no, no. It was, it was their senior year, I think, because their parents were in town for graduation.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, was it senior year? So four years. Yeah. But that’s, I’m pretty sure [00:47:00] if, okay. If you’ve been doing, no, I feel like that’s the, that I would be

Simone Collins: proud if our kids did that in the college way of like, we’re not, you know, we’re gonna wait until graduation. I’m okay with that. ‘cause people do grow a lot in college.

There is however, a benefit to having kids while still at uni. So, yeah, either way, you know, but I don’t think. You know, they, they still were committed to each other so early, they were seen as so precocious compared to other kids and people who did get married younger than when they got married. Mm-hmm.

People we know have told us just how socially difficult it was for them. It was basically social suicide. People acted like they were crazy, people stopped talking with them. I think an underrated thing that we don’t really talk about is, okay, we, we can recommend this until the cows come, come home.

But what these people are facing is still a huge amount of social prejudice when they do the right thing. So here’s this guy saying, oh, get married young, and you know, all these people and, and we are saying this, that it’s a really [00:48:00] good thing to do. This doesn’t change the fact that if someone does that today, they are going to be socially punished.

Malcolm Collins: I think that’s changing. We’ll see, I think trad iss coming back, but real trad, not this like, you know, signaling sort of trad, but a wholesome trad, I guess I’d call it. Instead of grizzly trad grizzly trad. They act like

Simone Collins: performative anger and masculinity, trad,

Malcolm Collins: performative masculinity, trad versus, you know, dad maxing.

Simone Collins: Okay, I could see that. Yeah. There, there’s a, yeah, I guess just a, a return to functional marriage, you could say. I wouldn’t even call it trad. I just would call it a return to functional marriage. ‘cause that’s what it is. It is people marrying the way that people have traditionally married. But I feel like the word traditional or rad has just become so corrupted by aesthetics and performative gestures that aren’t even [00:49:00] traditional, that we can’t use it anymore.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I have enjoyed talking to you. What’s for di? We’re gonna reheat the endang tonight.

Simone Collins: Yes, but I’m not gonna put garlic on it tonight ‘cause we have meetings tomorrow. So instead

Malcolm Collins: oh God put so much garlic on my food the other day and I was like, I’m really sorry I had it in my thoughts.

Well, at least I’m not gonna be seeing anyone anytime soon ‘cause I Yeah, but you’re not.

All right, well, I’m gonna do some rendering with I guess the, the, the bread stuff that you made yesterday. Mm-hmm. And that should be it for me.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I can toast it. I’ll just toast it with butter and some like kosher salt for texture. Sound good?

Malcolm Collins: Sure.

Simone Collins: Or just plain. Do you want it just plain,

Malcolm Collins: plain rendering is a very flavorful dish.

That’s true. And you don’t, that’s true. Need to put flavor on something if it’s being used as a,

Simone Collins: a, an absorbent sponge of rendering ness. Right. Yeah. Then we’re on, I’ll be so much Malcolm, and I’m, [00:50:00] I’m really grateful to you for.

Malcolm Collins: Comes downstream of not understanding normative male behavior. Like at any moment where he yelled at somebody, he should have felt humiliated at himself for ever doing that. Like, if I lost my temper in that way, I would punish myself severely. And I don’t think that he was taught to do that.

Simone Collins: Well, it also as, as someone who listens to this podcast had pointed out before, and I think it’s just so well put when a man gets to a point where he is yelling or otherwise pulling rank by like maintaining frame and exerting that dominance, he’s already lost, like dominance is, is exerted through being the person that people respect and turn to for leadership and direction.

Yeah. And if people aren’t doing that, like if you have to yell at people to get them to do that, it’s because you’re not dominant. Yeah. It’s because like this, this [00:51:00] just speaks to this immense amount of insecurity. And that is the biggest issue with performative masculinity is that it belies this intense insecurity when that masculinity is expressed in through anything.

But security, confidence, strong leadership and foresight, plus immense amounts of emotional control, which is why I really do love that stoke philosophy is pervasive in the manosphere that people really admire figures like Marcus Aurelius, who was all about emotional control. Yeah. Who was all about perspective.

I mean, that is natural dominance. It, it’s odd to me that this performative masculinity and deep insecurity is caught on as much as it has. ‘cause I feel like people can kind of. Smell that like I’m sure you had teachers when you were in school who would lose their minds, you know, they’d lose their composure and they’d start yelling at the class and berating them and nagging them, and [00:52:00] you didn’t respect those teachers.

And then there were the teachers who like with a quiet sentence, got everyone to snap into place.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: This is no different. So yeah, it’s, this is just so strange to me. But yeah, I, I love that you’re pointing this out and I, I just also find it so interesting that

like the, the most supposedly masculine people are, like you’re saying, just getting cocked, never having kids, and ultimately removing themselves from the gene pool. It’s, it’s so, it’s so bizarre. So, but that irony is fun and delicious. So thank you for sharing this with me.

Malcolm Collins: Thank you so much. By the way, we should leave earlier than three hours and 30 minutes.

Something could go wrong on our journey.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, it, it takes three hours and 30 minutes on a regular drive over. I would add at least an extra hour in there.

Simone Collins: Okay. And I don’t know, we just like get lunch or something if we get there early.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If [00:53:00] something goes wrong, we just get lunch or something.

I like, we get there early, it’s everything goes right. But I have a feeling that, you know, you, you want a, a much safer window.

Simone Collins: Okay.

No, this is an episode we recorded a while ago because my wife just gave birth yesterday. So obviously we’re not recording episodes right now. Uh, but back when we recorded this, we couldn’t tell you guys, but now we can is what we’re talking about here is a, a talk that we did at the White House, , on fertility rates.

I.

Malcolm Collins: And we will you’ll get the slide deck done tonight.

Simone Collins: Yep. After I finish the kids’ dinner, when I have them playing downstairs, I’ll just bring down my laptop and work on it

Malcolm Collins: and we’ll do some printouts tomorrow.

Simone Collins: We’re gonna, I thought we were gonna just email them the PDFs.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, we’re gonna need something, I guess you can do it from your phone that we can practice copying from in the car till we memorize the speech.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yes, that’s, that’s the plan. And, and the one thing that I am adding to the deck at the end is just a slightly more structured overview of our general recommendations because [00:54:00] all you really put in there was like propaganda when actually we had like a lot more in terms of our policy suggestions.

I mean, you put in propaganda and work from home and that was pretty much it. Whereas I feel like that should be a little more fleshed out. So that’s the only thing I’m adding just a heads up on that. And then I’m, I’m presumably gonna deliver more of that because it’s,

Malcolm Collins: well make sure that what you add mm-hmm does not contradict what we wrote in the speech.

‘cause we say things like, you know, cash handouts and stuff like that don’t work. And so if you’re, yeah,

Simone Collins: none of our executive orders had to do with that. Okay. Yeah. Don’t worry.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. Love you.

Simone Collins: I love you too. You’re pretty.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he is just sitting back on his head like this, of course, chilling. And I was like, Hey, you wanna go to the station? To, he’s very adamant, no,

Simone Collins: no,

Malcolm Collins: I want to stay here. So I got him some milk. And he is, he is having a chill day because he was terrified about having his blood drawn.

Simone Collins: Well, saying when he was getting his blood drawn.[00:55:00]

Malcolm Collins: He was, he was, at first he was screaming like, I’m scared. I don’t want you to do that. Please don’t do that. And he’s like, and then when he was actually gonna get giant screamed, please somebody help me because you know, dad’s there holding him in place, you know. Oh God. Of course I’m traumatizing him, the doctors, but here’s what we need to tell him.

Okay. ‘cause that’s what I’ve been telling him. What you need to tell him, it’s because he’s too small, he’s not eating enough. Which is true. That is why you got the blood drawn. That is exactly to terrify him into not finishing his dinner. You know? Well, you’re gonna have a good, get your blood drawn again if you don’t eat your dinner.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Good. We can use this fear. This will, this,

Malcolm Collins: this trauma that he went through today, this traumatic experience we will use to get him to eat. Amazing because we’re such desperately okay parents, that’s what he needs. He needs to

Simone Collins: eat food That, yeah, that plus 10 hours a week of a BA therapy that seems [00:56:00] entirely oriented around him eating.

We also need to work on some basic safety stuff. Like, hey, maybe don’t try to dismantle the toilet in the middle of the night. Please. Screaming.

Malcolm Collins: Ah, my dad, I’m scared.

Simone Collins: Oh God. Like, yeah buddy, you should be scared. You, you should, why did you, how did he even get it? Get the top of the toilet refill thing off.

It’s heavy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s what made him scared because it’s also chained in place so he can’t take it all the way off. Keila certainly would’ve broke it if it wasn’t chained in place. So kids are so easy. Having little raccoons in your house every day. Simone was saying we were walking through like their room at night.

It feels like they intentionally mess it up every night. Like, yeah, because when we come

Simone Collins: down, like all of the couch cushions have been thrown off the couch. [00:57:00] The, the ladders to their bunk beds on the floor. It’s like they get up in the morning and they’re like, oh gosh, I have so much to do. I have to throw everything on the ground.

I have to, you know, take every book off the bookshelf and fling it across the room and, and like, I’ve watched them do it. This isn’t like kids who are having a tantrum or something. Yeah, they’re just like in a very busy, productive seeming way, you know, like, hi hoe, hi hoe. Like little, yeah, little dwarfs just going to the mines.

Creating their mess, the

Malcolm Collins: bookshelf to get new, new things to throw around the room. Uhhuh.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You gotta march back to the thing and you know, whatever bucket or bookshelf is present and you have to take the thing and then you have to take it as far away from that proper storage place as possible.

What is wrong with them? And then of course, if they find anything that they can break or disassemble, they will also do that. Like that antique doorbell that you wanna keep for whatever reason. Torsten was, oh, my

Malcolm Collins: [00:58:00] favorite is when one of them comes to me, like Torsten is the one who does this most frequently.

And he’ll like, walk to me from another room with a handful of screws and he’ll be like, look at these, you know, he’ll call them golden screws if they’re like copper. The golden screws

Simone Collins: from that. Yeah. That one place

Malcolm Collins: he’s like. I’m like where did you get these from? And he’s like, they were in the chair.

And I’m like, the, that was hard to build. They were in the table. You know, just, it’s like toasty. They

Simone Collins: will fall the table, the table’s going to fall apart if it doesn’t have this screws in it. And he’s like, well, why did they make the screws golden? Is if that’s like, you know, why was she wearing a minikit and walking down a dark alleyway, huh?

Exactly that. Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: You’re a funny one. Simone. I like being married to you a bit

Simone Collins: toaster. Our funny one. A little toaster strudel. A brave little toaster.

Malcolm Collins: You gonna show him that video?

Simone Collins: That’s a horrifying movie. I can’t handle that. If you wanna watch that with them. [00:59:00]

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I guess you’re right.

Simone Collins: There were at least in what was, what were some other ones of our childhood?

A amazing adventure or something where like animals, like cat goes down a waterfall, animals something. There’s another one where things

Malcolm Collins: like a, a button bunny dies, like watershed Down, I think it’s called or something.

Simone Collins: Oh no. Watership Down is a fun book. I, I don’t know if I’ve seen the movie. There’s a lot of like, like really screwed up.

Mo Bambi. What, what was that? Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Hello. This is, oh, are we on the right side?

Simone Collins: Oh. Thank you for catching that.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. All right. Here we go.

Speaker 2: Okay, so you see Simone has been cooking up all these cookies so that people don’t mess up her C-section. So they know that she’s a nice person or believe that she is. Right, Simone. So you’re trying to trick them. Yes, I think, yeah. All right. And the other [01:00:00] kids, we got our one little watermelon here. Right?

You’re like a watermelon. Are you an actual watermelon or like a fake one? What about you, Octavian? Have you eaten your food tonight?

We were talking with Telemundo today, which is A NBC subsidiary. They told me there were no genetic differences between human instance, between human ethnic groups, and this is a scientific fact. A book. Oh, a book. Do you like this book? Yeah, because it’s.

Don’t break it. Okay.

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they explore the evolving landscape of free speech in the US and UK, comparing the approaches of the Trump and Biden administrations. From high-profile censorship cases to the hidden influence of government on tech platforms, this episode unpacks the facts, controversies, and personal stories behind the headlines. Whether you’re interested in media, politics, or civil liberties, this conversation offers a thought-provoking look at the state of free expression today.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about news, which is largely being covered up by mainstream nor organizations that just two weeks ago were freaking out that Trump threatened to pull Jimmy Kimmel from the air or threatened to put pressure to pull Jimmy Kimmel from the air for lying, lying.

I, I should point out, not not like a character attack that he did on somebody or disagreeing with Trump’s politics but lying. About a, a, an assassin, right? The, so you kill, right? So Trump goes, all these organizations freaking out about this. It drops literally like within four days of that we’re covering this a little late that Google admitted that the Biden administration had secretly gotten them to censor wide swaths of mildly right wing information and.

We’ll get into this very true information. [00:01:00] Okay. That, that we now know is what was true from a lot of studies that, that we’re gonna go over now. And I think that this fundamentally when people are like the difference between the left and the right is, is the modern right threatens to censor you for lying the moderate and left.

We will ban you without telling you or anyone else for telling the truth. If you can’t tell who the fascist is there, you know, be aware and I’ll point out like another thing that that will be a, a part of this, which I think is Im important to talk about, is sort of what’s, what’s going on with free speech in the UK right now.

And the, we’ve talked about it before, so I’m not gonna go too deep, but the complete. Degradation and subjugation of the British people. Where one person for example Gar Evans, this is in 2023 in, in five Scotland, which is where I lived in Scotland actually. Yeah. Wrote Islam is questionable on the exterior of her home [00:02:00] and was arrested for that.

It was her private property. It, it was, and oh, he didn’t say Islam is evil. Islam. He said, Islam is questionable. And basically the cops showed up and they go, no, it’s not, not in the uk. Now the reason why this is important to note here is if you wrote that about Christianity or if you wrote that about Judaism you would not be arrested.

And this is true. Sort of a, across the progressive sphere, which is there are classes of people that you are allowed to question and classes of people that you are not allowed to question. Yeah. And I think through that, it’s easy to form an alliance which, which I think is why the, you know, the Christian communities and the Jewish communities have come together so much.

Recently is like, Hey, they wanna get rid of you too. That, that may maybe, maybe we have some overlapping interest at the moment, Lord. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, it, it, it, it matters like a lot to me that you, you literally can’t write. And we’ll go into other instances because he was, he was [00:03:00] released after being in jail for a while.

But the point being is like that he was arrested at all for just saying like, can you question Islam? Like, is this, is this a thing that we’re allowed to do in this society? And was very loudly told. No. No free speech

Simone Collins: or, well, I, I shouldn’t say free speech in the UK is terrifying.

Malcolm Collins: It’s not a free country anymore.

It is a no, it is a dictatorship. Well, I, I would say it’s totalitarian non dictatorship. Like a totalitarian sort of bureaucracy. Yeah. Oh, that’s even

Simone Collins: scarier.

Malcolm Collins: It, it

Simone Collins: both is, is, is, is restrictive. But also it doesn’t get anything done like what is worse than that? At least in China they can like, I’m just gonna put the freeway there.

Tough s**t. But like, oh, I’m just gonna put the freeway there. Tough. But then, you know, in the UK it’s, it’s just everything’s slowed down by the bureaucracy and you don’t have the freedoms.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I wanna point out here to people who are like, well, you know, you’re criticizing progressives for using the government.

We’ll go to how they use the government to, to ban these platforms, to type the things that were getting banned. [00:04:00] You, you criticize progressives for doing this. Why do you want Trump to attempt to do the same sorts of things? And my answer is. Because they will not make it illegal if we do not also abuse it.

That that’s, that’s the, the, the fact of it when this came to the Supreme Court, that the Biden administration had done this despite people who had YouTube channels with millions of followers being shut down for saying things that were true. That. That they said no harm had come to anyone.

And so it lost at the Supreme Court. Huh? The Supreme Court justices on the progressive side are not going to say that Presidents shouldn’t be able to bully people into you know, well, we, we can do it the ethical way and they can do it the unethical way. We can just say, Hey, let’s stop the people who are actively lying.

Right? They, they, if we don’t do that. The, it never becomes illegal because the left is like, but, but you see the Right. Always resists using this. Yeah. Any, any thoughts on that point, by the way?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean. [00:05:00] The, yeah, I appreciate your, you’re arguing it that way because I see it argued in the opposite way that Trump is going to restrict free speech and then this is even bad for the right at this time, because then once the left is in power, they’re gonna use the, the precedent that Trump put in place to restrict free speech.

We literally

Malcolm Collins: just learned that the left was already doing that, but secretly,

Simone Collins: yeah, that’s the thing is I would, one, I mean I think it’s, it’s very different to, to encourage the FCC to

Malcolm Collins: ban people from blatantly lying about ease of the Rififi facts. And then, yeah, because it, and by the reason he was banned wasn’t even because he lied.

It was because he refused to admit that he lied on air and apologized for it.

Simone Collins: Well, and he still, I mean, everyone says that he released an apology video. It was very heartfelt. But he, he, he didn’t acknowledge the fact that he misrepresented. The affiliation of the assassin. And, and that’s also odd, but I [00:06:00] think that

Malcolm Collins: it, it’s not odd it showed an unwillingness to accept reality or to communicate truth.

Well, again, I

Simone Collins: think that, that it’s kind of, he has to, because eventually he knows he’s going off conventionally to be air. His only audience after that is going to be extreme progressives. He can’t do anything to alienate that audience like it would be, I wouldn’t, if I were him, it would be dumb. It doesn’t, it doesn’t matter.

He can’t, he can’t concede that grom. So anyway, I don’t, I don’t care about that. It’s logical what he’s done. But the government can choose who gets spectrum, who gets allocated spectrum. Yeah. In the United States, and they get to choose that. It’s for the public good. And if there is active misrepresentation of reality, that is provable.

I don’t see that as being a problem. That’s, that’s really, I don’t care, especially with the internet, do we really care that much? Who gets spectrum? I, I

Malcolm Collins: do see it as being a problem. Okay. I do see it as being a problem, but I think that the only way that you get it. [00:07:00] Made illegal is by abusing it because the left is already abusing these systems.

Mm-hmm. So, and, and that’s what we’ll be going over documentation about. Well, no,

Simone Collins: but it was worse though because like the, the, well the reason why you can’t just say is, is free

Malcolm Collins: Simone, the reason you can’t say what you are saying is because the left, when they banned people for telling the truth, and we now have science showing that it was the truth at the time, science, we now have proof.

That that happened, COVID experts saying that it wasn’t true. Oh. So, so the problem is, is they determine what’s true. You know, they’ll say, oh, well it is, it is. Probably true that questioning trans identities gets trans people killed, even though we know for a fact that’s not true. Mm-hmm. We know that actually in the UK when they banned access to this, unliving rates did not go up within that community.

And this is like a, we have a huge amount of data in this. So it’s factually untrue. Mm-hmm. And yet they’ll just say, well, it is true because I hired my gender expert, you know, and my, and, and, and this [00:08:00] person says it. You know this thing about race and we have our team of race experts and we have our team of fat studies experts.

You, you, you can’t do that, but it’s, hey, if you actually are doing it for what is true to the point where the left feels they need to react by making it illegal I think that Trump is doing this in the most ethical way a human can, which is antagonizing them over things that are actual lies so that, so that you can antagonize them into making laws around this that can pass by partisan, because I think that every Republican wants our most.

Same Republicans don’t want people to be able to do this. So to continue here Google’s letter, sorry. Any other thing you wanted to say? No, no. Go on. Go on. You, you, sorry. I disagree with you. What’s your rebuttal? Or do you, do you agree?

Simone Collins: I mean, I, I wasn’t, I wasn’t disagreeing with you in the beginning.

Well, no, no, no. But

Malcolm Collins: what you said was, if something is not true, you should be able to Oh, no,

Simone Collins: no, no. Yeah, no, you make a fair point. As you were saying that, I was even thinking about the fact that. Someone on the left could actually say, [00:09:00] no. Jimmy Kimmel wasn’t at all wrong. This, this guy Tyler Robinson was Maga.

His parents were Maga. He has a MAGA background, therefore he’s Maga. He wouldn’t have had, had his parents not been maga, he wouldn’t have grown up around gun culture and had the agency and ability to do what he did. Therefore he’s maga that’s the truth. So I, I now see what you’re saying and you’re absolutely right that any side can bend the truth and, and shift the, and, and the goal is to

Malcolm Collins: not do that as a side, right?

Yes, correct. Like to actually try to, because eventually if you are engaging with the truth, you end up winning because you’re gonna make more sound decisions in the same way that I can tell a leftist if you don’t have kids. Because, you know, nine out of of of 10 kids who are born to a leftist are left as adults and eight outta 10 kids who are born to a Republican or Republican as adults.

If you don’t have kids, leftists are gonna disappear and they can re and yell at me. And I tell that to a Republican, they’re like, yeah, that makes sense. We should probably have more kids. You know, because we’re playing with real data here. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But to continue. [00:10:00] Google’s letter explicitly acknowledged that Biden administration officials quote, created a political atmosphere that sought to coerce in quote censorship describing the pressure as quote unquote unacceptable.

So let’s get into what the Biden administration actually did to like, get quotes of this. ‘cause I, I’ve heard a lot of, oh, they pressured them. How did they pressure them? Him? So, in April, 2021 the, there was a. They basically Google the White House, came to Google and said, Hey, you need to. Ban anybody who is questioning the effectiveness of vaccines.

And anyone who is and we’ll get to this later, anyone who is sharing the quote unquote lab leak hypothesis, which we know is probably true. Then, then Google said, but that’s not against our terms and standards and it’s not against the rules that you gave us. And the Biden administration then said basically tough titties.

Like you, you have to ban ‘em. I don’t care. Yeah. So context. White House officials pushed YouTube to address V vaccine hesitancy more aggressively, [00:11:00] including content that wasn’t outright misinformation, but could quote unquote contribute to doubt. And this came amid Biden’s public criticisms of platforms for not doing enough.

And I’ll note here again, like, while we’re gonna be talking about this, I’m not mentioning the thing that we already know about from the Twitter files and from Facebook the, the Biden administration forced tech companies to lie about Hunter Biden’s laptop story and, and, and say it was a fake story when it turned out it was real.

And they used the FBI to threaten companies into giving misinformation to people. Mm. That was very

Simone Collins: messed up.

Malcolm Collins: And, and there was a separate one where they didn’t admit that the Trump Russia videos were like faked. Wow. That the, the FB, I didn’t actually believe in those. But that’s like a separate thing.

Quote, so this, this, this, this is a quote here. Are you guys doing anything with your product team to crack down on vaccine misinformation? If not, what could we be doing to help end quote. They, they added that they wanted to discuss quote ways, the White House and our COVID experts, COVID experts can [00:12:00] partner in product, in your product work in quote.

And I think that this was during that time period where like even saying the word COVID on YouTube would get a video like demonetized and banned which is absolutely totalitarian and weird. Because like you’re in the middle of a pandemic and you’re not allowed to say the name of the pandemic on the number one.

Like, by the way, it, yeah,

Simone Collins: it became our Voldemort, which was really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It, it was so dystopian and, and I’ll note here around the dystopian nature of this YouTube at the time people were like, well, you could just create your own alternative, like right-wing platform. It’s like, not really because YouTube is a.

Person to person marketplace. It forms something called a natural monopoly. This is true of, of, of search engines as well. And essentially it means that a competitor will never have more than 20% of the marketplace within a natural monopoly. And then the next competitor has no more than 2%. It’s a.

Common thing. It’s, it’s, it’s very common in business. And if you study the way economics work, it, it becomes clear why this takes effect. But yeah, if you can get YouTube to, to censor people, you’ve basically censored the entire informational [00:13:00] sphere. Anyway, follow up quote. Quote, this is a concern that is shared at the highest, and I mean highest levels of the White House.

We want to be sure that you have a handle on vaccine hesitancy generally, and are working towards making the problem better vaccine hesitancy. YouTube’s internal response staff noted flattery was quote, dug in our, on our decision. Marking for borderline content in quote and Warren, the situation that could quote, potentially spiral out of control if not addressed.

And so they ended up cracking down on true posts that that could be seen as drawing questions around vaccines. Now, he, he, he flattery. So in, in 2021 he did something where he would flag specific non, non ative videos and ask them to delete them. So basically the White House had a team that would search YouTube and then tell YouTube what channels to delete.

Simone Collins: I don’t like this one. Take it down.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, burn the witch. Burn it.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Wow. [00:14:00] Actually specifically one of the channels that was taken down for that was RFKs channel. People

Simone Collins: should get cute little badges by their names if they were handpicked. By the inspiration, by the, yeah. Kind of like a badge of honor.

You know, I was, I was taken down and all I got was this stupid YouTube badge.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I’m not gonna go over all of these because there is a lot of really horrifying evidence here. Okay. Of them bullying YouTube into taking stuff down. Well, no, it, it matters. Well, they have, I

Simone Collins: mean, the Twitter files also show that there was this like, direct line of communication as well, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They could just go and it, I just wanna bring it back to this Trump. Threatened you did not actually take someone off the air for knowingly lie, the administration, you’re, you’re muted.

Simone Collins: But the best thing about it is that he was very public about it. That he, when he posts [00:15:00] this stuff. Yeah. And it’s not just that, it’s also like his justice Department pressuring and stuff.

He like literally is posting messages on truth social and on x.

Malcolm Collins: The, the point here being is that the, the left. Did not freak out when they saw that their own site had done this times a million.

Simone Collins: Well, without their knowledge, without anyone knowing, trying to hide it behind closed doors without any oversight.

Malcolm Collins: And I’ll note here, one of the things that would often get channels taken down, because I wanna go into this, ‘cause this we actually have a lot of evidence on was not just vaccine hesitancy, but the White House dumped this into vaccine hesitancy was hesitancy around masks. Wearing masks. Dun, dun dun.

Yeah, this was, well, here is the problem with the whole masky thing. We now have a lot of evidence on masks, and what we learned is that they did nothing and may have caused brain damage. So let’s get into [00:16:00] masks because a lot of people will point to, they’ll go, oh, look at the studies. Where over the short term, they are reducing the spread of certain types of diseases.

And it is true over the long term. It completely comes out in the wash because of the faster spread of immune response within a region. So, because like you should have known this, if you’re just slowing down the spread of a disease within a region like eventually it’s still gonna spread throughout the region if it’s a high relief virent disease.

Right? So. Sweden avoided strict national mass mandates relying on voluntary use and no lockdowns while neighbors enforced some alongside schools closures and border controls. Okay, Sweden saw faster early spread two to three x higher per capita in the spring of 2020, but long-term excess mortality was comparable and not statistically worse.

So if you compare the, the deaths in Sweden per a hundred k between 20 and sorry, 2020 and 2022 you had around 158 in, in Sweden in, in some cases you had left, like in Norway, which had strict man outs in [00:17:00] Lockdowns 1 29, but not a statistically meaningful number. And then if, if you look at Finland.

You get significantly higher and, and they had strict mandates and, and borders. So they had, compared to Sweden, which had nothing, 158, they had 228 despite. Wow. Strict mandates in border control. Okay. Yeah. And in the US states you actually see something very similar. So if we compare the, the states SDIA in Florida, what was that, South Dakota, I wanna say, Iowa and Florida which had very loose ma mask measures to states that had very strict ones California and Newark.

Hawaii you, you actually see almost exactly the same death rate, which was three 50 to 400. And, and then but in the latter

Simone Collins: states, people didn’t have, speech was ugly. Faces

Malcolm Collins: saw higher death rates in, in California, New York, and Hawaii. 300 to four 50. So, so about yeah. So, now note here that these are more urban states, which, which obviously accounts for something, but Sure.

It didn’t work the way they said it [00:18:00] would. Thoughts before I go further here,

Simone Collins: I, I, yeah, I mean, I’m glad you’re bringing this up just ‘cause I think we forget it so easily because it was such a weird year. We just kind of write it off. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s like you, the left thought they had an opportunity to go dictatorial and they just.

Effing ran with it. Wow. And I think

Simone Collins: Trump was president for the beginning of this whole thing. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But he didn’t implement these. Do you remember when Trump wanted to implement flight restrictions to China and he was called like a racist?

Simone Collins: He called it the China virus ‘cause because it was kung

Malcolm Collins: flu.

Simone,

Simone Collins: the kung flu. Did he actually say kung flu? Oh yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He

Simone Collins: called it kung flu. Why did that catch

Malcolm Collins: on? Oh, it did catch on with conservatives, but you’d be banned from saying it from leftist circles. Oh boy. The kung flu. That is such a great term. Anyway so, and I think Nancy Pelosi, like mainstream Democrats, was one of the ones who called him racist for attempting to prevent the spread early on.

But he didn’t implement the really dictatorial measures that the leftist did. Like, you know, [00:19:00] as we, as we talk about, and Tim Walt State they had a, a system where you, you had, you were locked down in your home and neighbors, the snitch system on you Yeah. To go to jail. Like that is, that is great. Up like crazy.

That is crazy. And I think that this is when a lot of people switched to the right. Like they were like, right, curious. And then like the COVID stuff happened and they’re like, oh, you guys are Ns. Like now I know what you do when we give you an ounce of power. This is not good. Yeah. But anyway, I also wanted to talk about the, the, brain damage stuff because this is, this is something that, that’s like on the edge, but I, I think that there’s enough evidence to be like probably given how much the left doesn’t want this to be the case. So a, a 2023 scoping review speculated chronic low level CO2, even within the 0.3 range, which is what you get with.

Masks can risk, could cause still burrs, cognitive delays based on animal and submarine data. But it’s circumstantial and no human trials were ever created. What I read [00:20:00] about this though is that

Simone Collins: it, it, it was like very uniquely contraindicated for pregnant women. Yes. Just super not safe.

And I was pregnant during this process. Very not

Malcolm Collins: safe to do. And, and any doctor would tell you that you cannot wear because you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re recirculating. CO2 which yeah. Is not good. It’s not the way you’re supposed to read, like your, your biology evolves the way it did for a reason, right?

Yeah.

Simone Collins: We don’t have big flaps of skin in front of our faces for a reason, even though sometimes we end up swallowing a bug.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, you, you could, there’d be many benefits to having a giant flap in front of your face. Biology didn’t make us that way.

Simone Collins: It did not. It did not. Yeah. It’s so weird. It’s so weird.

Malcolm Collins: So, a 2021 BMC study. This was a small one on only 11 adults noted. CO2 exceeding eight hour NOSI limits. Under K nine 90 fives. But they said below short term ones, no health effects observed, but again, 11 participants. There was a [00:21:00] 2021 study by JAMA Pediatrics on 45 children, which found CO2 rises to 13 to 14,000 ppm under surgical FFP two masks.

Ooh. Which would cause. Long-term brain damage but it was quote unquote retracted for dangerous claims. And now I’ll know, you know, if you’re, if you’re in the middle of a COVID panic and, and you’re like this guy’s pointing out that this could cause problems and you still don’t know, like it hasn’t been proven yet that the anti maskers were right.

All along you, you are gonna push to get something like that retracted?

Simone Collins: Well, and we also have, we know people personally who did peer reviewed research on mask efficacy during the pandemic, and they tried a broad variety of different. Homespun materials because remember also at the time we were supposed to save medical grade N95 masks for medical professionals because they were in short supply.

So people were encouraged to make their own masks. They were largely made out of cotton and [00:22:00] whatnot. And what our friend was doing is looking at a broad array of different materials to figure out what actually would filter out virus particles including at one point. This person sent me a hilarious picture of, pantyhose over their head. They’re like, this is humiliating, but you gotta do what you gotta do. They ultimately found that the best material, just FYI, if you’re gonna make your own ceiling mask, and it has to be ceiling and fit into your face, was vacuum filter material. So if you bought, you know, a bunch of dry vacuum filters and then build masks out of that, it actually does do a pretty good job.

At replicating the same effects of an N95 mask. No one was doing that. They were buying fricking, you know, cotton masks on Etsy. That’s what we all had. Right. So not only were you recirculating carbon dioxide, you were not effectively protecting yourself or o or other people, quite frankly, from Well, you, you did

Malcolm Collins: slow the [00:23:00] spread a bit with a mask, it just didn’t affect long term.

Yeah, sure. ‘cause if you’re

Simone Collins: coughing or sneezing, it’s not gonna go as far. I mean, it does help. And that is why in Asia it’s. It’s a courtesy to, if you’re feeling under the weather, go out and wear a mask. I, I appreciate that. And I think there was this really big, underrated element of it. This circulated a lot in leftist circles during the pandemic of like, people actually not enjoying not showing their faces because they were ugly and everyone looked slightly more attractive when wearing a mask because you just couldn’t, you, you would just imagine.

Kind of like how AI just makes more attractive faces. Yeah. This was a big

Malcolm Collins: problem for me because my beauty is like the way I I get by in society.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well and all the, what we were during the pandemic is a mask. I should try to find some photos so I can send it to you for the podcast was a, oh, this

Malcolm Collins: is when we were doing flights and stuff.

Well, this was ‘cause you were pregnant and stuff.

Simone Collins: It was because I was pregnant too. And going through IVF was a full face ceiling. Filtration mask, [00:24:00] like,

Malcolm Collins: but we only, we only use this for like airplanes and stuff. We, we generally going,

Simone Collins: I weren’t going to doctor’s offices and stuff because

Malcolm Collins: really didn’t wanna Well risk you pregnant.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I point out during COVID especially in the early days, we didn’t know what the long-term effects this was gonna have on pregnancies and stuff like that. And so a lot of people are like, oh, why be worried about it? You know, if you’re pregnant, you need to be worried about stuff like this.

You can’t treat it lightly if there’s a new disease.

Simone Collins: Well, and the mask that we actually used didn’t really restrict air access. It had working filters attached to it. Yeah. It wasn’t like wearing cloth over your face that you couldn’t breathe through. I remember wearing cloth masks and feeling super claustrophobic and like I couldn’t breathe and I was, yeah.

Much harder. And when we wore the. The other mask. It was not exactly comfortable but you, so

Malcolm Collins: what, what, what would get your channel restricted? Three core categories. Oh, hold on.

Simone Collins: I, I wanna, sorry, just to like close the loop. So our friend did this research and it basically was like, yeah, none of the masks that people are wearing are very effective and at least in terms of protecting them.

But they had to write an [00:25:00] abstract that basically said the opposite and was like, no, masks are good. Masks are good because they were funded by. Not in us, but yeah, by the NIH. And they basically weren’t allowed to say stuff that would reduce mask use potentially. So they had to bury the lead like way deep in their paper.

They were like, by the way, none of these mainstream masks work. But their abstract basically said the opposite. And that’s just, I think another example of this.

Malcolm Collins: Creepy. You, you see this all the time? Yeah. With, with NIH funded stuff and stuff like that, you know, again, UK dictatorial countries these days.

But what was being banned? Okay. So yeah, COVID-19 related content in a few categories. You could be banned for arguing that they’re with a lab leak. Which again, I think Stephen is it John Stewart on the Stephen Colbert show pointed this out the best.

Speaker 23: A novel respiratory coronavirus overtaking Wuhan, China. What do we do? Oh, you know who we could ask? The [00:26:00] Wuhan Novel Respiratory Coronavirus Lab. The disease is the same name as the lab.

And then they ask the scientists, wait a minute. You work at the Wuhan Respiratory Coronavirus Lab. How did this happen? And they’re like, Mmm, a pangolin kissed a turtle. And you’re like, No! If you look at the name,

show me your business card. Oh, I work at the Coronavirus lab in Wuhan. Oh, because there’s a coronavirus loose in Wuhan. How did that happen? Maybe a bat flew into the cloaca of a turkey and now we all have coronavirus. Like, come on.

Okay, okay. Wait a second. Wait a second. What about this? What about this? Listen to this. Wait a second. All right. John. Oh my god. Oh my god. There’s been an outbreak of chocolatey goodness near Hershey, Pennsylvania. What do you think happened? [00:27:00] Like, oh, I don’t know, maybe something. Maybe it’s a cocoa bean or it’s the f ing chocolate factory.

Maybe that’s it.

Speaker 22: That could that could very well be and Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins and NIH have said like it should definitely be investigated.

Speaker 23: Stop with the. Logic and people and things. The name

Speaker 22: of the disease Wait a second, wait a second Is all over the building Wait a second, but it could be possible, you could be right It could be possible that they have The lab in Wuhan To study the novel coronavirus Diseases because of the bat population there.

Sure, no. I understand.

Speaker 23: It’s the only place to find bats oh, wait. Austin, Texas has thousands of them that fly out of a cave every night. . Is there a coronavirus, an Austin coronavirus?

No, it doesn’t seem to be an Austin coronavirus.

Malcolm Collins: . And, and Colbert is like freaking out because he, he is gone so woke, he can’t even like, deal with the questioning.

Oh boy. And why, why [00:28:00] even were they restricting that? Oh, yeah. Because then we would’ve found out that Fauci had played a for hole in funding that, and, and Mr. Fauci would’ve gotten in big trouble. So, they’re also like actively were trying to destroy people’s careers to cover their tracks on the role that they played in starting all of this.

Yeah. And, and here I’ll put through, through gain of function research, and here I’ll put my little skit that I created on gain of function research

Speaker 3: It is time for the Mad Scientist Society’s annual most evil invention in the world contest. It’s the most evil invention in the world, is my shrink ray. Ooh, my entry for world’s most evil invention is the freeze ray. Hello? Okay. Who is Nick?

Hi guys. Uh, I’m, um, my name is Roy and, uh, I, um, and for the most evil invention in the world contest, I invented a, [00:29:00] uh, a deadly virus that you probably know is COVID.

I beg your pardon? What? Um. Oh, I’m sorry. I’ll, I’ll speak up. Uh, so I work at the U Wuhan COVID Gain of Function labs. It’s this lab where we take viruses. In this case specifically, we were working with the COVID virus, um, and attempt to make it both more virulent and more deadly. Um. So, uh, do I win the contest?

That seems like I win? Seems like I win. Oh my gosh. My most evil idea was a blizzard in July. Right? Well, I went in a slightly different direction with the assignment. You a deadly pandemic. Yes, yes, yes. That’s that exactly right. This, this guy gets it. You get it? Oh my God. No, I don’t. How, how do you even build a deadlier, more virulent virus?

Speaker 4: Well that’s a, um, that’s a great question. [00:30:00] What you do is you start by building a regular COVID virus and then you make small modifications to it that might make it more virulent or more deadly, and then you test it out on thousands upon thousands of animals until you find one that’s just really good at killing things.

Speaker 3: Nope. That it continues. Uh, the cycle. That’s the most hideous thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life. Oh, well thank you very much. You see, the shrink guy is with me all the way. Stop saying that Webster’s Dictionary defines evil as profoundly immoral. We know what evil means. Well, it doesn’t seem like you do ‘cause you built a a freeze ring.

I think someone should call the police. They.

Malcolm Collins: . Now the, the next thing that they were. Banning people for was 2020 election related claims content, challenging election fraud irregularity. Oh, yeah.

Or challenging official narratives. And this, this was really horrifying, I think, in retrospect because it was a conversation that we weren’t allowed to have publicly. And I think because we never had that conversation people, like even broadly educated [00:31:00] people I’m aware of do not know how fishy that election was.

When you’re, when you, when you actually go over the data, uh mm-hmm. And I don’t know, I’m gonna have to cut this out because it, it used to be, this was the thing, like I could talk about murdering someone on the street and YouTube wouldn’t restrict me. But if I mentioned, I. I’m showing you numbers here, you America, who lived through two election cycles.

Yeah. You see this line on this graph, right? This is the line of democratic voters for every election cycle Recently. It is about the same with small differences, all except in one year in the 2020 election. If the data is correct, it means that Joe Biden was a dramatically more, and I’m not talking about in relation to Trump.

I’m talking about in an absolute getting voters out level. Dramatically more popular than Obama.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is if you Joe Biden, if Biden [00:32:00] Biden Yeah. Is dramatically more popular than Obama. Okay. Yeah. That’s, if you lived through both of those election cycles, you’d just be like. That is completely impossible.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, for those of you outside America, when obo, when Obama was running, he felt like the new Kennedy. He felt so new and exciting. I was in Washington, DC just a few blocks from the White House when he was elected. When the results were called in, people flooded into the streets. Oh, I was

Malcolm Collins: in Scotland for an all night until like 5:00 AM like election watching party.

It was wild. This did not happen

Simone Collins: with Biden. This was not a thing with Biden.

Malcolm Collins: And people joked about this in like 30 Rock. There’s this scene where, you know, for the second Obama election, you know, just not that many people show up to the party and goes, I thought it was gonna be magical. Like the first one again.

South Park did a thing on it as well, you know, like, yeah, well, people destroying cars and everything and all excited over Obama winning. You know, it, it is, it is one of those things where if you lived through it. You, [00:33:00] you don’t need anything. But people are like, well, but mail-in voting. And, and it’s like, well, if mail-in voting caused something like 18% more people to vote than previous, than in other election cycles.

‘cause there was mail-in voting in the next election cycle and you were back down to the normal number of votes. How did that happen if it was mail-in voting? Right. And if people are like, well, mail-in voting led to and COVID led to, you know, dramatically more people voting, then that’s still suspicious.

Right? Like, why were so many more people voting than apparently had ever voted before or were going to vote again in American history? A little odd. A little odd. A little odd. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And that’s something that like a reasonable person should be asking. I, I think that there are potential explanations like, it, it could be that COVID really did cause that big of an effect.

It it like enough people weren’t working at the time or something that it allowed more people to go to the polls. Could be maybe, but we didn’t see it in the midterms. It also had people not working, so probably [00:34:00] not odd. But it’s, it’s something that like. You should have been able to talk about.

Right? Yeah. And it felt very much like one of those countries where an election is rigged and then anybody who mentions that the electorate is rigged gets immediately pulled from the air and assassinated. Yeah. That’s, that’s sort of what it felt like. Also, they were banning things for broader political speech accounts, promoting conservative or dissenting viewpoints on government policies.

With the Biden administration reportedly pressured Google to remove lawful content to align with their goals and winning elections.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Wow. So to go over some of these Dan bungalow he was banned in January, 2022. His channel had 2.5 million subscribers. And he was banned for questioning mass efficacy.

Oh boy. Not. Not extreme right wing content or anything like that, just questioning mask efficacy. A 2.5 million subscriber, that’s not like one guy’s full-time job in life work. That’s a lot of people’s full-time. [00:35:00] Well, and how

Simone Collins: many, I mean, how many viewers did the Jimmy Kimmel show have that were regular?

It had

Malcolm Collins: less, it had a, an average viewer of 1.6. So like, thats also

Simone Collins: an important point when it was

Malcolm Collins: banned. So, so he touches fewer people than this guy touched? Yeah. If you’re talking about like, who is doing more substantive bans in terms of affecting the public, but it wasn’t like that was done in, in isolation.

Steve Bannon was also suspended, like mainstream political figures.

Simone Collins: Oh, Malcolm, president Trump, the, the, the sitting president was banned on x on, well, no, that was not X yet on Twitter. That, I mean, enough said.

Malcolm Collins: Generally Kennedy’s channel was banned. Yeah,

Simone Collins: but Malcolm, the president of

Malcolm Collins: states like this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But Trump was

Malcolm Collins: banned

Simone Collins: the sitting president by a platform,

Malcolm Collins: not by an alternate administration working in secret. That’s very different, Simone.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, you

Malcolm Collins: could, you can say the gall of banning a sitting president from your platform to try to look lower The three. Well, I mean,

Simone Collins: to your point, if there’s [00:36:00] a natural monopoly.

And that’s where the people are. And, and the people should probably know what the leader of a major country is up to. I,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. If, if, if you, if you look at Sebastian Ro, a national security commentator, he was banned in 2021 for talking about mail-in ballot issues. And the, the, the mail-in voting concerns that he brought up were, were specifically.

On post-election audits, talking about procedural clause. Oh, it’s dear signature mismatches. So he was that thing fraud. He was, he was talking about like a factual report on errors in the voting and it got his channel banned. If we’re talking about that guy, he, his podcast with around 200 to 30,000 Steve Bannon was 200 to 300,000.

If, if you talk about, the RFK thing is around 300,000. These, these are subscriber numbers, so you know, significantly more. It, it, it’s sort of an aggregate than anything that you’re getting with late night hosts or [00:37:00] anything like this. And this was all done in secret.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s the in secret part that gets to me.

When there’s enough public scrutiny about something, I mean, a actually great point with Jimmy Kimmel, right? It was, it was public. There was a backlash. Disney reacted. Disney put Kimmel back on the air, Kimmel’s back on the air. All right, fine. So it’s, it just, it’s a better outcome than these people.

Getting secretly banned. And to many people just looking kind of like butt hurt conspiracy theorists, I think it’s really easy to look the other way when there isn’t really a good public record for someone’s censorship. Yeah, yeah. Just assume like, well, they probably posted some slurs or something that run counter to this platform’s policies you would never know.

That this was the White House emailing their dedicated email. Yeah. Hey,

Malcolm Collins: RFK just said lab leak is real. That might lead to fauci ban him.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So I, yeah, I like, [00:38:00] I, I

Malcolm Collins: appreciate that and know what happens. I mean, imagine if Kamala had won, where are we? None of this ever comes to light. This stuff just stays going on.

You know, we increasingly become more and more controlled to where, like the UK. Like, look at what’s happening in the uk. Steve Laws was arrested recently for a post on Twitter. What did he say? And, and he’s not allowed to talk about what the post was. This is what the, the comment Oh my gosh. That’s creepy to talk about.

They will not tell you often. What got you arrested?

Simone Collins: That makes me nervous. Like, ‘cause you

Malcolm Collins: wanna know what not to say. Pete, north of Northern Variant was arrested at night by North Yorkshire Police. Okay. And literally what his post was, that was just like a meme that said f. Islam in part of it.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And again, it’s, it’s like you can’t control you. You can insult some groups, but not other groups. Yeah. You, you will regularly get, I mean, imagine if you could ban someone by being like white tears or like male tears or something like that. Right. But if you say you know, question Islam, all of a sudden you’re in jail.

[00:39:00] Right. David Atherton was arrested for posting similar things about Islam. And, and, and you’re seeing this throughout the uk. This is where we go. Specifically the longer post that he said was F Palestine, F Hamas, F Islam like that. Imagine how many atheists have said things like that about Christianity, or how many feminists, or how many trans activists have.

And yet we’re not, we’re not seeing, I’m almost like, you know what? We’ll just leave this all in place, but we get to use it for Christian stuff now too. How about that? If you do that, if Trump administration or the right in the UK started to do that, the left would get rid of these laws ity split.

That’s the, that’s the benefit of abusing these laws in kind, because then they’re like, oh, that’s a good point. We be used against us. We should make it illegal.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, that’s a point that I haven’t really seen made is you just want to create forcing functions that make this impossible for anyone to do.

Yeah, so I like that. I do. Oh, interesting discussion. Because I, I’ve seen a lot of [00:40:00] vary. One note condemnations of Trump’s actions around Kimmel without larger context. And so I appreciate your taking a deeper look here.

Malcolm Collins: I heard that like Vince Shapiro was even like against him, which seems stupid to me against

Simone Collins: what Trump had done with Jimmy Kimmel.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It seems like actively stupid, like we’re playing a larger game here. If, if one team knows that you never pick the nunchucks, they never ban the nunchucks, you know, you, they’re never going to ban something if you never pick it. And we need to get these bans in place. People. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Fair point.

Malcolm Collins: I didn’t even think that that would be, if Trump administration just goes at and says that’s why they’re doing it.

It’s like, Hey, the Biden administration did this. We’re gonna do it until you make it illegal. Here is the law to make it illegal. I want you to pass this law. That would be balls out. I would do that if I was present. That’s why you guys need to get on this.

All right. I mean, it is, it [00:41:00] is weird how close we came to like a really horrific timeline when everybody’s like, yeah, how do you see the Democrats of the totalitarian ones? And it’s like, this and your guys’ reaction to Jimmy Kimmel versus this, which has been crickets.

Simone Collins: And we just wanna, we wanna avoid becoming the UK basically.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and it shows when they do these reactions, like what about free speech? They do not care about free speech. They care about controlling you if you fall for this bs. You allow them to do that.

Anyway I am just so, so, so excited to be your husband. To be on this side politically is a wonderful party over here. They’re all so nice. They, they are so nice compared to when, when I worked with leftist activists.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I appreciate the freedom. Of it. And the fact that a lot of people can be in the same room and disagree, and that’s okay.

That’s, that’s what I’m all about, [00:42:00] so,

Malcolm Collins: oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that seems to define the modern, right? Yeah. Is, is respectful disagreement amongst ourselves. And I really deeply appreciate that. And it’s so different from the, the alternate, you know, sort of flotilla disagreements and stuff like that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Please, excuse me, I’m sorry.

Malcolm Collins: I think it’s because we, when we disagree, we’re looking for what’s true. When I get in an argument with another right leaning individual. I am not arguing over which truth we are going to impose upon people regardless of its veracity. I’m trying to figure out and convince them that my beliefs are actually true.

You know, when you look at something like the blowup of the flotilla, where, you know, the, the people march out because there’s a gay person on board because they’re Islamists. You know, when they’re debating with the gay person, you know, they’re not. They’re not having like a debate over like, is gay, okay.

It’s, it’s like, do we [00:43:00] live in, in in this reality or do we live in this reality Because this is the reality I want to impose upon the population. Yeah. And we were only able to agree with each other and, and, and coexist because I pretended that you didn’t have these views and you pretended I didn’t have these views.

Whereas in the right, like I’m well aware of where we differ from Catholics. I’m well aware of where we differ from Jews. Right? Like I’m well aware, so, well I,

Simone Collins: but I also appreciate is that groups are willing to. Carry their own weight and tend to their own flocks. Whereas on the left, there’s the expectation that everyone else is going to carry my special interest group and put their needs behind mine.

Whereas there’s not this expectation on the right that my religious group or ethnic group or cultural group is going is entitled to the support of every other group, whether or not they consent. Yeah. That’s another really big one for me is, is the entitlement is. Way lower, so it’s good. Anyway, I love you and tonight.

Love you too. I was thinking maybe I [00:44:00] could really quickly shred and cook down a small sub batch of the reang, saute it and then air fry it under mozzarella cheese. What do you think? Just to give it a try.

Malcolm Collins: I will try the meat, but I think it might be at the stage because it’s been about a day since we started cooking it.

Yeah. Where it’s uniquely tough rather than uniquely soft.

Simone Collins: All right.

Malcolm Collins: We don’t have to, but we’ll see. Because it’s a different cut. So, because usually you stew meat for this. And I decided not to go a bit fancier this time. You know, somebody’s saying, oh, Malcolm makes his wife cook for him. Well, she’s pregnant, you know, that’s, I also make her make money for me. Okay. I’m, I’m the full, I, I bring nothing to this relationship. He’s absolutely

Simone Collins: lying. He’s absolutely lying. How in the middle of the night who goes and gets the kids? It’s Malcolm. When the kids need to get a doctor appointment or get picked up from school, it’s Malcolm on the weekends.

Who’s playing with the kids all day? It’s Malcolm. Oh

Malcolm Collins: gosh. Don’t throw me into the buyer patch. [00:45:00] Don’t make me play with the kids on weekends. It’s such a burden. It is such a burden. Dads pervasively

Simone Collins: call it babysitting when they watch kids because they think that it’s like special when they do it.

Malcolm Collins: I thought about.

As soon as we get an income source coming in just going full-time with childcare because I enjoy it so much. Yeah, I

Simone Collins: thought about it too. It’s, yeah, because they’re just, they’re wonderful. Anyway let’s, let’s move on. Gotta go. But I love you very much. What,

Malcolm Collins: what’s the next piece? Would you wanna do one for, I already sent you one link.

Okay, great.

Speaker: Cake. Yeah, they’re making little cakes. Whoa. I want a robot like that. Whoas right side up.

That’s it. They don’t have a, do we? I want a convey like that. Mommy. Whoa. Look at that [00:46:00] machine. I think it’s cutting them in half. What do you think, mommy?

Speaker 2: But yeah, I think because they’re gonna ing in the middle, they want walk red.

They’re putting all the.

Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they dive into the controversy surrounding Greta Thunberg’s involvement with the Global Sumud Flotilla (GSF), the intersection of progressive movements, and the complex dynamics between various activist groups. This episode explores the rifts within the left, the overlooked genocides in Sudan and the DRC, the treatment of LGBTQ+ individuals in conflict zones, and the shifting alliances among Black, Palestinian, and LGBTQ+ activists. With candid discussion, historical context, and sharp analysis, this conversation challenges assumptions and highlights the real-world consequences of performative activism and intersectional politics.

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be using the split up of the Flotilla that Greta Thornberg was involved in and on the board of over a person coming out as gay, and then the Muslims on it who were running a lot of stuff, whereas like, well, we won’t be part of it then.

And it it, it’s still sort of operational, but it’s having a lot of issues. We’ll be using this as a framing device to talk about. What has been happening increasingly over just the last couple months which is a split up or like a, a forced sort of reconciling in the left between. And by the way, we found some video of Greta Thornberg’s volatility here.

Dare you. How dare you.

Speaker: Groups don’t make me frown. Only the west must be to down the rockets. Praise the fight. Freedom’s wrong, but hey, [00:01:00] feels

Malcolm Collins: . A, a reconciling of. Many people thought, and, and, and it’s sort of like every non-white group largely thought that the left was all about centering them. Mm-hmm. And they’re learning that it’s not, and while we will be talking about, one of those things we’ll be talking about is the conflict between the Black Forest part of the left and the Palestine per part of the left which is like way more gruesome than you would think specifically because.

Okay, Simone, are you aware that there are other genocides in the world that are significantly larger than if you consider Gaza a genocide than what’s going on in Gaza? Are you aware of this?

Simone Collins: Nothing’s coming up in the news. I couldn’t. Well, no, no, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: Of course. Nobody’s talking about it. None of the leftists are freaking out about it.

Credit Thornberg’s not doing anything about it. But no, there’s significant, multiple larger genocides but the largest genocide in the world right now. It’s happening in the Sudan. Do you know. Who is killing who in this genocide? No. [00:02:00] Arabs are killing blacks.

Simone Collins: Oh

Malcolm Collins: no.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: and you can say, oh, come on Malcolm, you must be misframing it.

So this is from an AI here, because I ask, is this actually true? Yes. The ongoing genocide in Sudan, particularly in the Darfur region, largely involves Arab dominated forces led by the rapid support forces RSF. In Allied Arab militias, perpetrating systemic atrocities against non-Arab, often referred to as black or African ethnic groups such as am Mati, fir and za.

We, I can’t pronounce this. This ethnic dimension is the core driver of the violence. So yeah,

Simone Collins: this is, I remember there being Darfur activists in

Malcolm Collins: college.

Simone Collins: Yeah, so, thousand protest

Malcolm Collins: dark four. We just stopped doing it within the current era of leftist media. Got

Simone Collins: tired of it. Or like, I don’t know. Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: we get tired of it.

This is a completely new conflict that’s happening in the same, this is a new one.

Simone Collins: Okay, so this is not the. Star four of like,

Malcolm Collins: well, obviously they’re connected, but it’s a new genocide. Yes, it is. It is. Mass murder of children, [00:03:00] mass graves. Really horrifying stuff. And then people will be like, well, we’re not funding this one.

And it’s like, well buckle up buddy, because guess who is funding them? The UAE and they’re doing it to get rid of the blacks in the region so that they can control the ports more easily and use it to export gold because I think they get like 80% of the gold from the region or something. We’re not gonna go too far into that.

But throughout this, what you will find, and I think that many people, they see like one dimension here where they’re like, they see the Gaza Palestine thing. And they’re like this is at odds with leftist views around gay rights, which, which we’ll get into. It is, but I think they miss how sort of unilaterally antithetical to most purported urban monoculture and leftist values.

A Arab community and specifically obviously Arab communities are different and there’s diversity within the communities. But I’m talking about dominant beliefs in these communities [00:04:00] are towards their other agendas like. Helping, for example, black people. And I think that we’re sort of coming to a head.

We’re also gonna talk about what has recently happened, which is a, a, a widespread movement of LGB organizations that are splitting from trans organizations and many activists recently with this idea that they are going to push like a, a divorce or a, a forced separating. To go to the, the gay stuff ‘cause you’re like, how you know, anti-gay is a place like Gaza.

Okay. So, in 2000 there were four Palestinians killed in the Gaza West Bank for just being gay. Which led to a lot of gay people in Gaza to flee to Israel, where they were accepted for asylum to protect themselves from the Gaza’s. If the Gaza’s controlled. Like Jerusalem, for example, the gay people in Jerusalem would be killed.

They’re able to go there for protection now because they are killed. In Gaza. Now what’s really wild here is we actually have like quite detailed like, like torture [00:05:00] and murder of, of, of gay people because of captured records that they have found of a senior Hamas commander in Gaza who was arrested beaten, placed in solitary confine before being murdered.

Predominantly because he was found to be gay. Other captured documents revealed that they tortured and killed to other gay members. Specifically for, and I love this because this is extensively documented in Hamas’ own records.

Simone Collins: Oh no.

Malcolm Collins: That these two people were killed because they gay griped, some of the Israeli captives which implies that regular gring must have been very common if they thought they could get away with gay griping and an Islamic, like, I love when people are like, oh, no, no, no, no.

Even, even though the hostages have said yes, grape is very common among the hostages, they’re like,

Simone Collins: it’s fine. Just don’t. Don’t be gay about it.

Malcolm Collins: Don’t

Simone Collins: be gay about it, guys. Oh, man. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: By the way, for the other [00:06:00] if you, if you wanna get an idea of like the scale of the various genocides that we’re looking at in the world right now.

The, the one that is Arabs killing Blacks in the Sudan there have been around 150,000 deaths. And around 12 million people are displaced with 11 million internal displacement, 3 million refugees.

And then if you look at the next biggest, which is again, not the Gaza War, it’s the DRC Eastern conflict. It’s had around a hundred thousand casualties 7 million refugees. And then if you look at the Gaza War, if you consider this a genocide it has. Just 64,300 casualties, which, which, which would make it about half the size of what’s going on in the Sudan right now.

And only around 1.9 million people. And keep in mind like this is, this is still a lot of people. I’m not saying that this is a good thing, but any

Simone Collins: death is tragic. But if, if we’re talking about effective altruism or tackling the, the biggest. The biggest atrocities in terms of, would

Malcolm Collins: it be much [00:07:00] easier to end the Sudan conflict than it would be to end the the conflict that we’re dealing with in Israel and Gaza right now?

Like, it’s a much more realistic thing to do. And this is why when you talk about something like Greta Thornberg and I, and I think this is really telling, and I wanna get into the psychology of this. Why does she climate activists decide one day not to address the biggest genocides in the world? And people will be like, well.

Just because the genocides happening in another region doesn’t mean you can’t be talking about a genocide in in this region. Right. Well, isnt

Simone Collins: she supposed to be the I of the left? I mean, right.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, she is kind of, but I, but what I wanna find here is when a leftist is like, well, you can’t complain about the genocide here.

And then say that, like, we shouldn’t be talking about the genocide here. And I’m like, I’m not saying that right. But the problem is, is I can go to your tweets, I can look at what your sort of lieutenants are doing, your Gretta thornberg’s, and not all one of them. I mean, I would argue that the tweets that the Sudan conflict is getting, despite being significantly larger is probably 0.5% of the tweets that Gaza gets from leftist activists.

So, so the [00:08:00] question is, is, why don’t you talk about it when it’s Arabs killing blacks? Why do you talk about it when it’s Jews killing Arabs, like, and, and Arab, and I’ll put a clip. On the screen here, it’s in another language. But, but for context here. So you, you, you don’t actually. I have to read the full saying.

This is the Palestinian analyst, Mannar Shaki on Al Jazeera tv. So, mainstream tv, you know, in the Middle East. And, and they’re even talking about this there, he, he pointed out that more people have been killed in the Sudan than Gaza in the past two years. But he then goes on to say, but nobody cares about them because the blood of Palestinians is precious.

You don’t see people in us. Protesting their death. Oh, okay.

Speaker 4: صحيح عنا ضحايا كثيرة ونتحمل، لكن شوف حتى ضحايانا حتى ضحايانا دمها غالي. العالم كله مهزوز هو شوف غزة أقول لك في السودان صار [00:09:00] في تهجير وصار في قتل أكثر من اللي صار بفلسطين سنتين ولا حدا حاسس فيهم ولا حدا يحكي عنهم، بينما إحنا مظاهرات بتقوم في الجامعات في كل

Malcolm Collins: so they believe, and there is a belief, and I’ll note this as somebody who hangs out with like upper class. Arabs and stuff like this. They are the only upper, like, okay, so I lived in Korea for a long time. You lived in Japan for a long time.

There is an undercurrent of like, racism against like black people in those countries. But if you are among like upper class educated people, you would not expect racist jokes. Among upper class Arabs, who I hang out with. Racist jokes against blacks are very common. There’s a much more open distain in those communities towards black communities

Speaker 7: For those who like to group together, free Palestine, free Sudan, free the Congo, I want you to take a look at this.[00:10:00]

The young black boy in that clip, his name is Joshua Alito Malal. He was a Tanzanian student. Who was in Israel studying agriculture so that he could learn and take it home to his family, help his country. He was brutally murdered by Hamas. They knew he wasn’t Jewish. They knew he wasn’t Israeli. They didn’t care.

They terrorized him, tortured him, killed him, and then shot him several times in the head after they killed him. This is how Hamas and the broader Islamic jihadist world feels about Africans, which is why they enslaved them by the millions across the African continent, including in places like Sudan.

Stop claiming solidarity where there is none. Stop.

Malcolm Collins: .

And, and people will be like, well, you know, you can’t blame a community just, just for what it’s you know. Elites are doing, and, and, and we’ll get into, well, it’s, it is not just the elites. [00:11:00] There have been campaigns in some of these countries of going around and, and lynching people recently and stuff like that.

Oh. So, so I guess it’s pretty horrifying.

And I wanna be clear here, if you are thinking to yourself, well, you know, my fellow activists are just unaware that there is a giant other genocide of Arabs killing black people. , And, and that is why they’re not protesting it. That’s why they’re not talking about it. And I’d be like, well. Somebody in your movement is educated, right?

Like there’s somebody at the top of your movement. Why is it that the people at the top of your movement, in terms of the information they’re filtering down to people under them, when it can be used to villainize Jews, they are highlighting that information. When that information could be used to protect black communities, they are hiding that information.

You have to ask yourself, what does that show about their actual values?

Malcolm Collins: Before I go further, do you want any, any comments here about sort of what’s going on in the left and, and I think that the right did a very good job of [00:12:00] sort of forcing the left for a long time. Like look at it. Look at what they do to gays, but we haven’t done the same with blacks yet.

And I think we need to do the same with blacks as well. Look at what they do to blacks.

Simone Collins: I think that’s fair. I mean, what, what I, I appreciate about the, the way that actually several people, I don’t know if this is just a trending idea right now who followed this podcast have spoken with us, or, or DMed us or emailed us about this, this reality that they’re seeing that basically the only.

Actually woke. People who are woke who identify as woke are are white because every other group is just an interest group. Or are, or specifically I should say, white, cis, non-disabled. People because everyone else is just a special interest group. And as soon as it comes up in the movement that it’s their interest group versus the priorities of a different interest group.

And if those come into [00:13:00] conflict in any way, then it just starts to fall apart. And I had never. Even consider that. Remember anyone we were

Malcolm Collins: dealing with recently who’s like super woke and the moment like crack came up, she thought she was like the queen Ashima, like, like Prince Ali walking into a place, getting to shut other people down in the conversation.

And just, just looked. Very buffoonish in context. I’m not gonna go too into it, but it, it, you see this, right? Like that’s, that’s why they’re a part of this because they think that they are afforded special status.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And in the moment that you’re not afforded special status, you try to attack whatever group is, is taking it away.

But it, it just, I don’t know. I, I had, I had believed I’d labored under the impression that every member of the woke contingency. Contributed equally to the, the game of intersectionality and would defer appropriately to whatever like was considered to be the most worthy cause or subgroup or in need subgroup of the moment.

And [00:14:00] then all this information has been sent to us on how that is not actually the case. And. Sort of like gay rights or black rights versus Palestine is just one of, it. Turns out quite a few examples of this, and I just, it’s mind blowing to me because I, I didn’t, I really didn’t understand that that this was just mostly, it.

It’s, it’s a, it’s a very varied supremacy culture. Yeah. With one, like, like with a substrate that is willing to consistently put itself at the bottom, and that is cis non-disabled. White people. Yeah. So weird. Or pretend so weird at

Malcolm Collins: the bottom. They never do for long. I mean, if they’re in it long enough, all of a sudden now they’re gender queer or now they’re, oh yeah, that’s right, they’re neurodiverse or now they’re, you know, that’s, that’s the way it works.

But I wanna go into this, this more like this, this era of black conflict is part of this because this, just getting to this and we’ll probably do another episode where we dive deeper into this. I found this really [00:15:00] fascinating. And I personally knew that Arabs are. Like racist against black people more than other groups.

But I didn’t realize that like, generally whenever they get the chance, they start trying to exterminate any neighboring black population. Yeah, I didn’t, that’s, and I wasn’t aware of this. And I think that like this needs to be part of the discourse more maybe. So in Udan, if this is actually a

Simone Collins: thing, I, I just, no one’s ever talked to me about it.

This is mind blowing to

Malcolm Collins: me. Yeah. So, so, we talked about this in, in Sudan during the first and second Sudanese wars. So this is the earlier set of wars, right? That you were talking about, the div conflict that you heard about. Okay. 1955 to 2005, an estimated 2.5 to 3.5 million black indigenous Africans were killed or ethnically cleansed by racially motivated attacks by Arabs.

So that was by Arabs too. Yes. That was by Arabs too. Yes. Then in Mauritania despite Slavery’s official ban in 1981, codified in 2007, so in Mauritania, slavery wasn’t banned till 2007. Okay? Even today, 10 to 20% of the [00:16:00] population remains enslaved and it is almost. Universally, the darker skin maan or the, the black Maan is so, so, so they still keep slaves.

And they were very, very big in the slave trade. O obviously, you know, the Barbary Coast and everything like that. Great. So in Egypt, and former president NOA Sadar a Nubian so, so black faced racial insults for appearing quote unquote not Egyptian enough dubbed Nasser’s Black Poodle soccer player.

Sadika quit national play as fans chanted racial slurs and displayed a back. Dog on his jersey. Sudanese refugees and darker skinned Egyptians report daily bias discrimination and abuse. Libya 2000 anti African riots saw black migrants and called them, oh, by the way, I should note in Darfur when they mass murder people.

The, the general slur that is used by the Arabs for the blacks that they are killing is slave. Their, their job is to kill the slaves. So, that’s sort of [00:17:00] like in their language, the inward, but like even more direct so you get an idea of what the vibe is here. People this is really bad. Libya in 2000 anti African riots saw black migrants called quote unquote slaves and quote unquote animals during the 2011 Civil War.

Amnesty International documented massacres of Black Libyans and Sub-Saharan Africas solely based on skid color in Morocco. The Trab Saharan Slave trades legacy endures was black Moroccans derogatory called Abda or, or Slave or Kanda servant. This, this is like a regular thing there. This is not like, you know, in the US you don’t actually get racial slur anymore.

This is a normal part of daily life of being black in one of these countries. And they still have the segregation on school buses, Sub-Saharan migrants and other, other forms of the sort of apartheid. Okay. Wow. By the way, I loved it. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. I, I wanna, I wanna lift this because they keep saying.[00:18:00]

Just because there’s a genocide in one region doesn’t mean I can’t talk about a genocide in another region. And you then have to say, well, except this genocide is about twice the size, easier to stop. And you’re not talking about it even 1%, the amount you’re talking about the other region, like Greta Thornberg, effing went, tried to like go to to Gaza, you know, did the whole thing, was arrested, refused to watch any of the videos of the atrocities that took place that day because I just refusing to be educated on the topic, was sent back by Israel, goes back on another flotilla.

Goes to Gaza again. Like, I didn’t even know. I thought she just stopped. That’s crazy. Could she not have, could she not have done Sudan next? Could she not have done, like if you’re doing this for multiple years, why not do one year for Gaza and one year for Sudan? Right. Like that? That seems like a thing, right?

But to continue here. And, and the reason I’m, I’m pointing all this out is I’m not pointing out that like Arabs are intrinsically racist or anything like that. You know, this is, this is, this is [00:19:00] not the point, but what I am saying is Arabs have a distinct culture. That is unique to their regions as distinct as American and Korean and American and, and Japanese.

And you might have disagreements with parts of their culture but I think everybody has a right to their individual culture. But I think it’s also important to recognize when aspects of a culture that are normative within a region are antagonistic. To your stated objective, like when you’re like, okay, we’ll all get together and we won’t fight for a little bit, just to get the conflict resolved and, and, and, and, and this particular region, right?

It’s important to note if everyone of the group that you’re trying to save is like, and once we have our arms freed up again, let’s start funding those Sudanese. You know, right now we’re splitting our money. You know, we could, expand our influence in Africa as well. So it’s, it’s important to note this stuff, right?

You know, and that I [00:20:00] think it, it’s also useful for conservatives who are. Fooled by the progressive rhetoric and do not understand how much we have in common with, i I in terms of our goals with Christian Africans. For, for sort of the planet, for humanity. This is a group. That is very easy for us to work with.

And, and in many cases, even, even Muslim Africans, I, I’ll point out here that the when I, when I talk about Arabs murdering blacks in these regions I’m not talking about while they, while they do happen to be Muslims, it is important to note that they are murdering the Africans, not because of their religion, but because of their skin color.

They don’t really care if they’re Muslim or not. Not that that makes it better. But it is a, an important note. Okay, so you were under the impression that the flotilla thing, because this is what the Flotilla is trying to say, is, oh, it’s not because they’re gay. It’s not because we have a bunch of Muslims who refuse to work with gays.

So let’s read parts of the, it’s propaganda

Simone Collins: from the Zionist [00:21:00] lobby.

Malcolm Collins: The Zionist lobby. Yes. Zionist lobby. Can antisemitism bring, bring them together? The, so we’ll see.

Simone Collins: So it’s a great uniter. Yes. There we go.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And, and if, and if anybody here is listening to this and they’re like, why do you need to point out the racism?

That’s normalized within many Arab communities. It’s because it is framed today within leftist rhetoric that. White population, so let’s say Northern European populations are racist, vile people, right? And what I’m pointing out here is, and this is important. That the amount of racism that you are going to see in any country dominated by a, a Northern Europeans is absolutely astronomically, minuscule, anti-black racism when contrasted with the amount you’re gonna see in any country dominated by Arabs.

And this isn’t to say Arabs or worse, like people have a right to to ethno preferences, but I think that there’s this like [00:22:00] delusion, right? That the, that these two groups are friends in some way. When, when. And I note here, if you’re a black person and you’re watching this and you believe that Egypt used to be black it, it’s more complicated than a lot of people make it seem.

There were periods where Nubians had control or whatever, but suppose you do believe that Egypt used to be black. You gotta ask yourself why it’s Arab now, then. Why, why do black people who go there? That would imply that somebody got rid of all the black people who used to live in Egypt. I was, it, was it yaku?

What did they call him? Yuba or whatever the the, the one from the.

Simone Collins: Oh, the evil one. Muslim.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Crazy. The made white

Simone Collins: people.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Made white people. What was it? Him? I, I mean, it was

Simone Collins: Yakob, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yakob. Yakob. Or, or you could say it’s the populations that are there right now that got rid of the original population.

Now that that isn’t actually what happened. Although there was large and, and violent of migrations into [00:23:00] Northern Africa. But the populations that were there before are not what many people would’ve consider. Black Africa, it doesn’t necessarily matter. Anyway to continue here. Gf I’m just pointing out that even from their own propaganda questions should be coming up.

Like if North Africa used to be black, why isn’t it black now? And the people who are living there who aren’t black probably have something to do with that. Again, that’s not exactly what happened. And a lot of this happened a long time ago. And Egypt is one of the, the less racist of the countries that we’re talking about, although a black soccer player quit due to the amount of racism he he dealt with in the country.

So like it’s pretty good. It’s there. Yeah. Yeah. GSF Co-coordinator Khalid Baja announced his resignation in protest at the presence of LGBT activists in the Flotilla, including Safi Adi, who identified as a queer activist. He said, quote, we were lied to about the identity of some of the participants in the vanguard of the Flotilla.

I accused the organizers of having a hidden aspect from us. [00:24:00] He complained in two streams on social media, other figures, including activist Marin mfn. And presenter Samir Elfe condemned what they saw as an attempt to impose culturally progressive agenda unrelated to the Palestinian cause. Describing it as a quote, red line crossed, and an attack on quote, societal values in quote and note.

They didn’t like try to make this about promoting gay agenda or anything, right? Like they’re, they didn’t like confuse gay agenda with the agenda tied to Palestine. Just a person who was on one of the boats happened to be gay. He wasn’t like doing gay stuff. He wasn’t like hitting on them or promoting gay stuff while they were doing it.

He just existed as a gay person on not their boat. One of the boats,

Simone Collins: Well, he didn’t hide it. Like his Instagram bio is Rainbow. [00:25:00] Communist queer militant based in Tunisia from the river to the sea. But he did say queer and there was a rainbow. So he wasn’t hiding it?

Malcolm Collins: No. Okay, so here’s a great quote from one of them. Who, who left over this? This is Elwafi quote, Palestine is first and foremost the cause of Muslims. It cannot be separated from its spiritual and religious dimensions with Jerusalem at the heart of its symbols and destiny. So why involve it in it?

Dubious activists serving other agendas that do not concern us and have nothing to do with Gaza, such as homosexuality, exclamation. Question mark. And, and note here again, he wasn’t like promoting homosexuality, he just existed as a gay person. Yeah. They’re like, you don’t understand how important it is that we kill gay people.

Simone Collins: Yeah. His plan wasn’t to go and provide aid and then turn Palestine gay or anything.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, no, no, no. But they’re, but I think that this is a thing. The progressive think that this [00:26:00] is what’s gonna happen and they don’t understand that they’re not breeding, they’re not really relevant. They’re sort of idiotic patsies for other people’s agenda.

And. We, those of us who are breeding and think about the future, need to be aware of where our potential allies are and where are the groups that are most likely to ally against us. Yeah. Fair. Even if we are temporarily allied wisdom them for now. Mm-hmm. And I think conservatives in the United States, my brother in Christ.

Black Christian Africans are one of our strongest potential allies going into the future. They are a, a, a high fertility group. They may not be high technology or, or high industry right now. But that doesn’t mean that we aren’t gonna still benefit from having allies in some regions that are very, very populous.

And they’re also regions that historically. Like conservative Americans. Mm-hmm. If, if you are unaware Bush for example, is very, very popular in Africa. And I note if Word W [00:27:00] Bush. Yeah. W Bush is extremely popular in Africa. And I will note here if you’re like, is that because

Simone Collins: of his work on

Malcolm Collins: aids?

It’s because of his work on a lot of things. Yeah. If he, he dealt with Africa in a way that sort of took them seriously. So if you look at like shutting down usaid and people are like, well that’s gonna get Africans to like hate you. And it’s like, no. If you actually look at what was happening in these communities where this stuff was being distributed, they thought that they were like being sterilized and stuff.

Yeah. The workers, there’s a reason why they talked about how many US Aid workers were killed. You don’t kill someone who you think is there to help you. They were forcing their views on them in the same way they forced ‘em on us. They don’t like this stuff any more than we do, you know? And and if you’re, I don’t, I don’t wanna go too deep on that, on that stuff, but what I’m pointing out here is, is it’s, they don’t want or need us to be forcing aid down their streets to throats to build alliances.

Wisdom. That’s not the way the African Christian communities are. . I won’t go too much, but you see what I mean? They, they, well, so what happened with the

Simone Collins: Illa that, that I read [00:28:00] was that this sort of really slowed things down. It, it made them look bad. Well, GRE Berg resigned from her post. Yeah. She, she stepped down from her like board position. She still. Refers to herself as an active supporter and participant, but not in a leadership capacity.

So they sort of lost her leadership endorsement. It’s, it’s not a good look for them. It’s not helping the cause. Well, and one

Malcolm Collins: way for me it was embarrassing to find out that she’s still involved with this. She did her thing with the Flotilla. She’s not getting them more attention now or anything like that.

Yeah. Is this just ‘cause she doesn’t have a home or something and she just lives to be an activist and I love, so, so she goes around and she in this. That I, I didn’t quote it, but she was talking about how I’m not doing this for attention. You know, I’m doing this to get aid for the people in Palestine.

This Flotilla thing has been operational for like 10 years at this point. They have only once early on, and it was only a fairly small amount, gotten any aid through to the people of Palestine and, and they’ve spent. [00:29:00] Many tens of millions of dollars on operating this the, the amount of lives in Palestine they could have saved by actually working to get aid to them.

Instead of playing yacht week with a bunch of other rich kids on frankly, what looked like pretty expensive boats you know, I, I no, they’re not like. Super rich people, yachts but they cost a, a pretty penny when you see these boats. And, and getting to, to do this for years on end, it looks like Greta has that’s a deeply selfish thing to do.

A, a very deeply selfish thing to do, which directly interferes with what you say your goal is. And I love it when she says because if she says, I’m not doing this for attention, why? Why don’t do aid in a way that actually gets it to people.

Simone Collins: Why not? That sounds good. Yeah, let’s do that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: let’s do that.

I, I don’t, I don’t like that there are people suffering anywhere. Yeah, I, I, it bothers me when people contribute to. Nonprofits that are wasteful or efforts that are [00:30:00] wasteful. And that’s why we’re so against any sort of performative action. Are you gonna talk about the, the Palestinians versus black activists during the 2024 election?

Yeah. Yeah. We were, we were sent a, a clip by someone, and I hadn’t heard about this, but there was a very real rift on the US left during the 2024 presidential election that crystallized. Around Kamala Harris’ candidacy because pro-Palestine activists felt that Harris was too supportive of Israel and not responsive enough to demands for ending US military aid.

Which one I just think shows how, I don’t like using this word, but how dumb Palestinian activists are. ‘cause it’s like, oh, you think Trump is gonna be nicer? Like, have you not heard of? But that is still what Palestine is. It’s like either 100% my way Exactly. Or. No deal.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, but, but you saw this Israel multiple times and we’ll do an episode on this.

Eventually. Ja will take so much research for the people who are gonna complain, but they have offered [00:31:00] peaceful solutions to end hostilities in the region.

Yeah.

And they basically keep getting told. So, so actually I can just read a, a, a, a take up of it. They didn’t give them full sovereignty, but again, when they have militias have come up and they’ve started murdering nearby Jewish population, so why would you,

yeah.

They continued to control the airspace. Which, which they again, why would you do that when they keep bombing you?

Yeah.

And they, they wouldn’t accept that Jerusalem was go, was not gonna be a full Palestinian capital. Versus Yeah, their demands are

Simone Collins: unreasonable. And this is also reflected. Yeah.

They said, they

Malcolm Collins: said, we need control of Jerusalem, which, why would the Jews, it’s not gonna, they’re in the position of power here. People like you don’t get a it’s, it’s. They, they, they, they have demanded every time it’s come to push, to shove. One of the things I always say is, well, we need a rejection of Israel’s existence.

Like this was in the Hamas charter until 2017. The, the, there, there was th. If you actually study the [00:32:00] history of the region instead of like what the leftists tell you there have been multiple, completely reasonable offers made to the other side, and they’ve always been said, no, we want everything back.

All of you guys get out.

Simone Collins: And that’s just not realistic. It’s, it’s, it’s delusional and yet here we are again. It’s 2024 election. Well,

Malcolm Collins: it’s not delusional. It’s a, it’s a religiously motivated demand is, yeah, I guess it’s, it’s,

Simone Collins: it’s, they, they really don’t actually care that much about any outcome, but the one outcome that they care about.

So they’re not gonna. But no, I think even if I wanted, like, let’s say I, I was like, no, my end game is 100% like in enslave the Jews in Israel and take over J Jerusalem and have complete control of the region. I would still, I would still accept the concessions and creep my way in.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no. Because they, they, they, what they were afraid of is if they accepted the concessions and, and created a two state solution, then other Arab states would [00:33:00] recognize Israel, which would oh, what?

They’d stop funding them or something. Well, no, they, there would be more of a problem if they attacked Israel with the other Arab countries because they, look, look, a lot of these regions, like your day job, your, your funding coming into this country is like one of the major industries. Is being basically an anti-Jewish terrorist.

And, and, and the money is coming in from that, whether it’s from, you know, Qatar or from Iran or from any of the, any of the competing groups. Basically the, right now, the way, the way things are, and one of the reasons why they don’t actually want a two state solution, even the people on the ground is because, it has turned Palestine into Palestine is such a weird word to even call as a thing because Palestine never existed as a state. It, it existed as a, a British oh God. What is it called again?

Simone Collins: Protectorate.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the British mandate of Palestine was established from 1920 to 1948, so it was only operational for 28 years.

Was established by the League of Nations after World War I, following [00:34:00] the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. No sovereign palatine in state existed during this period. And, and the British governed the regions. So, so one, even talking about Palestine is weird, but it’s basically turned these people who never mattered historically into a central focus of all Arab politics because all of the various Arab factors, whether it’s the Qataris or the Iranians, or the Saudis or the Uua E or Egypt sort of like.

Change their own social dominance order through the way that they fund the terrorist organizations that are in Palestine right now.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s become this really strange proxy thing. Let me just get back to this though, because you’re going on a really good tangent. Get back to

Malcolm Collins: the point I was making.

There is, okay before this, I mean, what was this region? Because, you know, as it established it was not a Palestinian state. It, it was a a, a a a. What was it called? A British mandate. Right? And before the British mandate, it was under the Ottoman Empire. Before the Ottoman Empire there was the Islamic State of Malos go on.

I just need to get a Kleenex. [00:35:00] Before the Islamic State of the Malos of Egypt there was the Iab Arab Kurdish Empire. Before that, there was the. ABI Empire. There was before that the Frankish Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem. There was before that the um, of fated empires. And then there was before that you had the Byzantine Empire.

Before that. You had the assassins before that, you had the byzantines again. Or some would argue that point. It might’ve been a cyber state before that you had the Hessians. Before that you had the solicit empire. Before that, you had Alexander the Great, the, the big point here is you could go back to the Persians, the Babylonians, et cetera.

But there, there. Was never a meaningful Palestinian state for this sort of population. They were always irrelevant in the wider power struggles. And now they are centered so long as a two state solution isn’t achieved and the fighting doesn’t stop.

Simone Collins: Like I said, they’re delusional. But [00:36:00] the, the point of what happened here was they, the Palestinian activists basically said.

Yeah, we need to boycott Kamala Harris, which is again so stupid because she was gonna be way more pro-Palestine than Trump would be. And they were like, let’s just force Trump to win ‘cause that’s gonna be great. And then. But they, I, I loved his Riviera of the Middle East. We’re gonna make the rega of the Riviera of the Middle East, can’t we, though?

Speaker 31: Gaza’s the new Riviera, oh what a sight. Gold towers shining, baby. The night stretching by the seaside, a five star hotel where camels roam with golden chandeliers in every home piece talks on the [00:37:00] 18 hole diplomacy with the golfing.

Oh, what a sight. Gold towers shining day and night. Golf courses stretching far and wide. Trump’s dreamland by the seaside.

Simone Collins: And naturally a lot of black people on the left were like, hold on. This, this disrespects the historic significance of the first black woman president and it, it underplays Black American priorities. And suddenly they found this, this. Themselves in this position of like, wait, I thought I’m, I’m a black leftist.

Like she’s a

Malcolm Collins: black woman. Is it she at the top of the priorities? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Like, no, I, I, I am at the top of the priority. And then the Palestinians were like, no, I’m at the, the, the top of it. So basically this, this [00:38:00] pro-Palestinian group especially though a bunch of them did this, but the biggest one was called uncommitted movement.

Notably refused to endorse Harris. It cited her unwillingness to change, to, to change military support for Israel, or cl clearly commit to more forceful pro-Palestinian stances. And they, they, they argued that supporting Harris amounted to complicity in Palestinian suffering. So many of the more radical and younger followers posted stuff on social media saying that they weren’t gonna vote for Kamala Harris, or they were gonna vote for third party candidates, and then black activists and voters.

Who of course were, you know, critical of, of US policy and Gaza, because they’re on the left. They, they pushed back because they’re like, wait, these are coercive attempts by pro-Palestinian movements to make Palestine the litmus test for voting. Sometimes they accuse these activists ignoring or minimizing the unique historical struggles of black Americans, which one are real, but two, it’s sort of showing of like, well, hold on.

I’m used to me being the priority [00:39:00] here. What’s going on here? Yeah, and some, some get really frustrated about this.

Malcolm Collins: We get a lot of people when they watch this and they’ll be like, oh, you know, you’re overstating Arab views on black people and stuff like this. I, I literally played for you a clip of Al Ja zero, like a mainstream Arab station.

Yeah. Was a mainstream Palestinian activist, literally saying. Black Lives don’t matter. Yeah. You know, in the us like when conservatives, when BLM was happening, people were like, well, you know, all lives matter. When people are like, black Lives Matter, the response was, no, all human lives matter. In, in, in, in this region.

It’s no, they don’t matter. I, I’m sorry. They certainly don’t matter as much as Palestinian lives. Yeah. And it’s interesting

Simone Collins: that in this online debate that that really didn’t come up. What it was really more about was that just really high profile. Influencers on social media got into these feuds where, where there were like Arab American and pro-Palestinian people criticizing Black Americans for continuing to support Harris.

[00:40:00] Like how dare you support Kamala Harris? Palestine. Palestine. And then the prominent black influencers push back and they’re like, you know, supporting Harris isn’t about ignoring Palestine. We need to protect our own community safety and, and our hard won progress at home. And Trump is gonna take that all away.

And it it things like black voters were accused of abandoning Palestinians and then pro Palestinians.

Malcolm Collins: And I think it’s important to remember, you know, we’ve got Palestinian friends, we’ve had Palestinians on the show, Richard Hanania, people know Palestinian. But the, the, the, there is not a single Arab majority country that is taking refugees from Gaza right now.

Like, like a large scale refugees was, was, was out the plane of, of sending the back. And, and people need to ask like why, right? And it’s because the people who have worked with this community for longer understand. The degree to which they are uncompromising and will hijack your movement. And I think the left is beginning to maybe see that, but I [00:41:00] don’t know.

Right. Like I, I, I think that you will be surprised within leftist circles how much they just com completely taken over by the pro-Palestine stuff within a few years if there isn’t some sort of revolt against this.

Speaker 9: I don’t care. I’m not trying to get you. I’m letting you know You did not. You existed. Yeah, I did. In recent days, American Palestinian content creators started an online attack against the black community for their stance on domestic issues and for voting for Kamala Harris. Black people also wear a universe and get on a plane and come to our countries and kill us.

Speaker 11: You vote that signed papers to kill us. I don’t wanna hear it anymore.

Speaker 12: What have you done to change your government? I don’t think crying on your phone is an example. What narrative are you pushing by showing black soldiers in the Middle East being told that we should put our issues and lives and rights behind everybody else’s, including Palestinians.

I don’t want to hear y’all tell us to put ourselves last. I’m [00:42:00] sick of it the

Speaker 13: way you all switched up 180 on Palestinians and people who are Palestinian activists. The second we have a black women, black woman run for office is discussing

Speaker 14: Eat Palestinians names out of your. Mouth when you’re trying to defend your decision for voting for Kamala.

Speaker 15: I’m starting to see a lot of these videos coming out, and I feel like someone really, really has to speak on it. So I’m going to, the gin side in Congo has made eight millions of victims.

Speaker 14: He’s saying Palestinians and he just doesn’t listen.

Speaker 16: This video coupled with all of the other Palestinians and their disrespectful and denigrating videos towards people like me, I’m done.

So the money that was coming out of my bank account every month. To help Palestinians over in Gaza. Yeah, that’s gonna stop. And I’m gonna redirect those funds to help the people over in Congo.

Speaker 19: If I bring up like a black issue and someone’s like, oh, people of color, I said, black. Black. Black, black, because other people of color don’t even like us.

Speaker 20: You guys keep [00:43:00] bashing white people for slavery, but why don’t we ever talk about the Arab slave trade and keep in mind that the Arabs have enslaved more black people than the Europeans combined.

Speaker 21: When it comes to the people who we are supposed to be defending over in Palestine, guess what?

Those same communities treat us with voracious racism, and you’re asking us. Don’t look at them, don’t look at our racism, don’t look at our past history and how we’ve treated your communities. Help us, save us. Be there for us. But guess what? When we need you guys, no one’s standing up for us. When we have gone through this oppression for the past 400 years, why didn’t any of you come racing on boats to come and help and save us?

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I just, it’s not just about. Blacks versus pro-Palestine people in, in America it, it’s also about black versus Latino and Hispanic [00:44:00] leftist groups because you have black and Latino activists disagreeing around criminal justice reform and immigration with some black activists feeling like progress.

Activist focus on immigration and reform and the needs of undocumented undocumented immigrants is, is overshadowing the, the push for police accountability when it comes to anti-black discrimination. And then Latino organizers are arguing that the struggles for citizenship that many Latinos go through doesn’t receive enough attention compared to criminal justice issues.

And then of course, you have the lgbtq plus movement. Clashing with racial justice movements where, you know, they, they don’t like where funding is going or where legislation focus is going. And then there’s of course the, the Asian American concerns over affirmative action, right? Where their, their concerns about stereotyping and model minority narratives are used to minimize and, and pit them against black and Latino communities.

Which, which causes a lot of trouble. I think what

Malcolm Collins: we’re in to see [00:45:00] is progressives, and there’s been some very interesting conversation about this recently in sort of the intellectual spheres. For a long time. They’re sort of motivated by this idea that economic concerns, we’re gonna be able to use that to, to create sort of this revolutionary class of human that’s gonna want to completely transform society.

And that just. Every time it did manifest that way, they, they ended up with like mass murder and everything like that. And if you look at like poor Americans for example, they’re much more likely to vote right wing, right? So that, that clearly didn’t go their way. Like as I point out, like the, the, the far left these days looks like they’re literally dressed up, like they’re from the capitol, from the Hunger Games or something, right?

Like, so it didn’t work. So how do you get your foot soldiers? Will you go to every. Group that you can convince to have sort of intragroup solidarity and see society as attacking them and try to build a narrative where you exist to protect them. But the problem is, is that it’s sort of come due and they haven’t actually helped any of those groups.

The [00:46:00] statistic that I would like to point out, yeah,

Simone Collins: it was, it was all a lie,

Malcolm Collins: is that if you look, they came to them

Simone Collins: and they were like, you. Are the chosen one. You get special treatment and they were love bomb. It’s very culty, right? Like, oh, we’re gonna, yeah. If, if

Malcolm Collins: you look at income differences between blacks and Hispanics and whites in various regions of the us, they are smaller in more Republican districts, bigger and more democratic, different districts like it, it, it, they did not deliver.

You know, we’ve pointed out that in the last 10 years there have been more anti-black hate crime killings than there have been were documented in the 1950s. You know, it is, it is not awesome. They, they, they did not deliver. If you look at the rise in white income since the 1953, this is the rise in black income.

It’s like staggeringly different. Yeah. They, they did not deliver. They do not care. It is time for people to understand that nobody’s gonna care about your interest if you’re seen as a monolithic voting block. Which is in part I think why progressives have done so little towards black interests.

It, it recently when contrasted with like, other groups because they’re like the, the, the [00:47:00] Palestinians actually didn’t vote. If you look in the United States there was a huge swing, I think in, in many regions. The Arab vote actually went to Trump. Oh, wow. And and the left like freaked out about this.

They were very confused by this. And, and, and that’s why people are listening to them now. So they, they did actually, I also wanted to talk about the L-G-B-T-Q shift we’ve seen recently. So, the, there was a movement that crystallized September 20th, 2025 with the launch of GB International, a new global coalition which issued a quote, declaration of Independence explicitly cutting tides was trans, non-binary queer, intersex, and I plus element of the b lgbtq.

Plus umbrella. The groups manifesto widely shared on x features spokespeople from multiple countries stating LGBT rights focus on same sex attraction and biological sex are being eroded by an over in on gender identity and legacy organizations. And I think that like. They’re in 18 countries with 17 plus organizations and they’ve gotten a lot of online buzz for this and [00:48:00] been covered by a lot of media you know, like Yahoo News and The Telegraph.

But the mainstream orgs that still have all the money are, are still a little pissed that this is happening. But I think that we’re seeing this in the background that, that people are understanding that this alliance isn’t working anymore.

Yeah.

And that. A new alliance is going to need to be had on the left.

And I think that the alliance historically was gone into very willfully, blindly, like this group thinks gays need to be, you know, if, if you look at the laws in Gaza, for example, it’s, it’s a 10 year prison sentence for being gay, right? Like, 10 years. Yeah, 10 years. But then like

Simone Collins: after you’re out, you’re still gay, so do you get another 10 years?

Malcolm Collins: No, you’re not allowed to be gay. Like, you’re not allowed to identify that that doesn’t exist in their country. Right? Like there, there, the crime isn’t

Simone Collins: being gay. It’s just. Identifying as it, and then every time you identify, you get another 10 years.

Malcolm Collins: Well, so within Muslim law, it’s actually [00:49:00] having sex with men.

Oh, okay. And if you look at Sharia Law, you need to have four people attest to it. So within normal Sharia law, it is rare for gay to be killed, but like hypothetically, they’re, they’re supposed to be. And so they often are you know, local justice and stuff like this. The idea that like. Well, because it’s not technically Sharia Law and you didn’t have four people see it at the time.

Four people are like, yeah, I’m pretty sure you’re gonna get murders. And, and we see this across the Islam, girl, like, I’m not like making something up. It’s like everybody knows that this is a thing that happens. And I, I, I think. They, they went into it being like, well, we’ll just pretend that this group, if it ends up proliferating within our communities, puts us at existential risk because of vibes.

Like, it would be cool if they didn’t or something. I, I, I mean, I think that they’re just so interested in tearing down the west right now that there is. And, and so certain that their faction is going to dominate after the West Falls, that there is a, a willing blindness to that. And the other thing I’m, I’m trying to, [00:50:00] to to highlight here is and no, there’s a lot of Muslims in Africa, so I’m not talking like Islam is not inherently anti African.

But I will note that there is going to be much more. Ability, if you’re talking about Arab Muslims in terms of building coalitions with African communities, then I think many American, African and, and European African organizers are aware of or fully grow which is gonna cause issues.

Simone Collins: Well, this just changed the way I looked at the left. ‘cause I, I don’t know. I, I thought that. The intersectional subgroups of the progressive movement bought into intersectionality and I didn’t realize that they would kind of bulk when asked to bow down to the priorities of the, the, the. Subgroup du jour.

So very interesting stuff. I’m glad you decided to do this episode because one, I just totally thought [00:51:00] Greta Thunberg had dropped the Flotilla thing. She hasn’t. That’s crazy. There’s better things to do. She just lives

Malcolm Collins: on a yacht these days.

Simone Collins: Greta, they’re not, they’re not in these boat. I don’t know, like boats are so freaking expensive.

They’re just money holes, but also like, it’s not. It’s not glamorous.

Malcolm Collins: No. I’ve, I’ve lived on boats before. It is not fun. Even, even if they’re fairly nice yachts no even, yeah,

Simone Collins: even if they’re very expensive, nice yachts, it’s not nice.

Malcolm Collins: I just imagine her miserable life living with a bunch of like Islamist like activists and, and, and, and having to,

Simone Collins: I’m sure they have fun.

But I, I just, yeah, I don’t know.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I don’t know how much they’re gonna care when she starts bringing up her environmentalist rhetoric or her. You know, like how this is all really about the environment and beating colonialism is about the envi. I, I, I don’t understand what that’s about. Like, that seems like, so like delusional schizo posting when people are like, oh, fighting colonialism is like pro.

It’s like, bro, but the [00:52:00] colonialist power that the power is, you deem as colonialists are the ones that do the most to fight global warming. Right? Like presumably you want them to

Simone Collins: have more colonial power, right. Well, I mean, we call it, we call the progress pride flag, thanks to whoever it was. Who follows this podcast?

Who called it that? We called it the

Malcolm Collins: colonizer flag.

Simone Collins: No, no. The colon it flag it’s, but I mean’s even

Malcolm Collins: if they don’t buy into that, how can Greta Thornberg say colonialism is the problem? When the colonizer regions are the ones that are the most green, it’s, and if they still had their colonies, presumably they would make them green as well.

Simone Collins: It’s not supposed to make sense. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: but. Okay,

Simone Collins: here’s what does make sense. I love you. You’re great.

Malcolm Collins: I love you too. And I have a spectacular day, Simone, and two AI going over this or whatever. I just watched you. ‘cause you’re gonna be like, well, you know, he’s overly generalizing. I’m not overly generalizing.

I’m talking about cultural trends and regions have a right to be culturally different [00:53:00] when you deny that you are dehumanizing those regions. And the thing I wanna note about all of this, especially like the the Gaza thing that always gets me and everything like that, is these views that like normal Muslims have and I think they’re entitled to, their views are, are generally to the right.

Culturally of the very views that got Charlie Kirk shot, right? And, and they will cheer him being shot and then freak out about people dying in Gaza who hold the exact same views, but like five times more extreme. I don’t. Like the, the ness. And as you’ve pointed out, the core reason is, is they don’t see these people as human.

They do not believe that they are responsible for their beliefs, but Christians are, that’s, that’s basically the gist of it. And, and that’s why I think

Simone Collins: they see them like, like animals that they’re going to, or, or like savages, which they’re going to civilize, which has long been this, this sort of, uneducated colon co colonizer’s view.

Malcolm Collins: Well, people always saw the regions they were colonizing.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: [00:54:00] But so it goes, okay, love you.

Simone Collins: Love you too. All right. I sent you the other link already, so just top over the. When I called and they were like, what appointment?

And then, then he called me back and this is

Malcolm Collins: for her C-section, by the way. That’s happening in like three days.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Mom, mom, mama. But yeah, I mean, getting the surgeon that I have booked was like impossible and that I thought that they actually didn’t have it booked and that I wouldn’t have two surgeons and that I wouldn’t have her.

I was so scared, Malcolm. That would be so bad. You don’t understand. You don’t understand. Oh God.

I still can’t believe what you said about cashews. Well, I mean, what I learned about cashews,

Malcolm Collins: I love, she had no idea. They come in these giant fruits that are like the size of an apple. And I was like, and they’re poisonous and they have to go through all this, this processing. She just had no idea. And I, she’s like, they’re so expensive.

Why are they so [00:55:00] expensive? And I was like, this is a cashew, probably not so expensive. You should be like, why aren’t they more expensive? It, the,

Simone Collins: the labor that has to go into them. I mean, I guess we’re, we’re also discounting the cost of a bunch of other things which you’re discounting and actually really cheap to produce, but because they’re heavier, they have a lot of water in them.

The shipping cost so much. The shipping cost.

I didn’t expect me making sure that my hospital admission was queued up would end up being this huge delay. See, this camera is much better. Someone was saying, by the way, they’re like, well, can’t you just invest in like. 10 80 P cameras and we have 4K cameras, but I think yours is just not coming through 4K.

Can you check your camera settings? Mine’s

Malcolm Collins: coming through Great. Right now. Is it coming through fuzzy on your end?

Simone Collins: I think other people think your camera. No, my camera

Malcolm Collins: in some days has been coming through bad. I’m saying [00:56:00] today, right now. Is it coming through bad to you

Simone Collins: today? It looks okay. Yeah. Okay. I, I don’t

Malcolm Collins: know, so I don’t know why sometimes it looks good and sometimes it looks bad.

We have invested like a lot in good cameras and Yeah. And everyone’s

Simone Collins: like, why are you shooting using a potato?

Malcolm Collins: And, and it’s like, I don’t know, like expensive cameras are weird because sometimes they just shoot potato quality for no reason that I understand. And I will try to use the podcast, you know, normal ones, I try to use the professional stuff.

It, it’s not better. I can pay literally like once I go over a hundred dollars for a camera, it seems no matter how much I pay, I get the exact, it is completely random quality. I can pay $300 and get terrible quality. Yeah. So like we’re trying here people, I just am not good with sound and video effects.

That’s not my. Expertise. Sorry. Although I do edit all of our videos, so you know, but that was the help of ai. So you know,

Simone Collins: God bless ai. All right, let’s do [00:57:00] it.

Speaker 3: Poop Octavian. Yeah. You need to make a poo shape like a poo emoji like this. Okay. Tell me about what you’re working on. Octavian. Yeah. What are you doing, buddy? Oh, I’m, I’m making this concrete. Lemme sell you something. Oh, wow. What’s this like? Yeah, it looks like a poop. Let’s make a big turd. Ready. Circle Circle.

How did it turn that color? Circle? Circle. Oh, well, because we mixed them together. Oh. Did you know it would turn this color? Yeah, sure it did. Huh? Did Mo Mommy tell you not to mix them all together? One, but he did Uhhuh,

so we base poop tighten. I don’t think you eat that. No, no, no. So mommy sticky. This is gonna cut. Well look at the watermelon slice in there. Oh, you cut it. You made your fingers pull the scissors. Wait, wait. What are this? Oh, I did that. [00:58:00] Thank God they didn’t the scissors. I for a second there.

What do you think? Avian? What are you making now? It looks great. Looks.

This episode explores the paradox of prominent right-wing or ethnonationalist figures who, despite their rhetoric, often marry outside their own ethnic or national groups—especially to non-white or immigrant women. Malcolm and Simone Collins discuss the cultural, political, and genetic factors behind these patterns, using examples from US and international politics. The conversation delves into the complexities of ethnicity, genetic diversity, and the social constructs around race, with a particular focus on the role and perception of white women in these dynamics. The episode also touches on broader issues of marriage trends, fertility rates, and the impact of migration and cultural change, all delivered with a mix of humor, data, and personal anecdotes.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be asking the question, what sort of self-respecting racist would date a white woman? And by this what I mean, or the phenomenon I’m gonna be going over is twofold. One is the phenomenon of people who are sort of race realists, or genetic realists or Okay.

Who are seen as leaders in the right wing movement or anti-immigrant. Okay? Very frequently, almost as frequently. As left-leaning anti-white black politicians being married to white men. They are married to either immigrant wives or non-white wives. And then we’re going to be talking about this in the context of it actually makes a lot of sense if you think about right wing politics.

Oh. By this, what I mean is. Who, like w whether it’s the [00:01:00] prenatals movement or any form of the right wing movement, who is like the core enemy, right? Who is generating the oppression that you are living under and benefiting from the system that that systemically discriminates against you.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Why would you marry into the longhouse?

It’s

Malcolm Collins: white women, right? Yeah. So

Simone Collins: Passport Bros are the political lesbians of.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. For people who dunno, political lesbians, this was something that happened in the past where women who were not seeing sex attracted would get in same sex attracted relationships like female, female relationships just before political reasons because they felt it was politically unpalatable to date men.

And really what it was, was this sort of aggressive lesbians pressuring straight women using politics into sleeping with them. If you, if you actually look at what was happening there, oh dear, it was not a good thing. But that is, that is not what this episode is about. This episode is about this interesting tension between a group that is supposedly [00:02:00] ethnonationalist.

But that is also ESO nationalist towards white people, but that also has a deep disdain for white women specifically.

Simone Collins: Yeah. In a cultural, I mean, yeah, you make a really good point. ‘cause even if you go to the various mgtow channels and look at, you know, the ones who’ve been sort of path dependency, audience funneled into like just the, look at this woman, she’s done a terrible thing.

She’s horrible. It’s majority white women. So you’re

Malcolm Collins: making a good point and. We’re gonna study some trends here because there’s some interesting trends here. Ooh. When white right-leaning women do this, they almost always break up. But when a white, white right-leaning men do this, they almost always stay together.

And keep in mind here the look of, you’re like, why would they go for women of other cultures? Well, because they’re often slightly more conservative in, in their views. And then the final thing we’re gonna go into here is. How ethnicity actually [00:03:00] works because I am so frustrated by this inaccurate view of ethnicity that we have in a society.

And actually I’m just gonna start talking about this a little before we go into all the examples of conservatives who do this. So I sent you on WhatsApp, an actual graph of human evolutionary breakups that will show you sort of how humanity speciated Oh, can you pull this up? Yeah. You recently

Simone Collins: shared with us with a, a friend.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And what you will notice here is because, and I’ll, I’ll bring up the context of this with the friend, is they were like, well, you know, I’m an Indian and most of this, this data was trained on Europeans. And therefore it is she’s talking about genetic data for like polygenic screening of embryos.

Therefore, it won’t be accurate on me. You know, it’s not accurate across esit groups. And I was like, sweetie, you are genetically white. Indians are basically white people genetically speaking. And not white people, Europeans, let’s call it that, like [00:04:00] the, the wider sort of European cultural group.

But I’ve often said on this group, if you divided humanity into ethnic groups you know, Northern Europeans, middle Easterners, Indians, Asians, and. Native Americans would be one of those groups.

And to clarify here, this one group would also include most North Africans, and I think that edging the majority, like a bit over 50% of Sub-Saharan Africans, uh, with groups like the Bantu being within this one group.

Malcolm Collins: And then almost all of the rest would be African was maybe one for Australian Aboriginals.

But in this chart you can really see what I mean by this in how far back some of these ethnic groups split off with other branches of humans being well around. When our last shared ancestors are outside of the ones who, who enter bred recently. So what you’re seeing here, Simone, is, is, is you look at the Northern [00:05:00] Carni and then the Southern Co Sun in, in Africa.

Mm-hmm. These two groups alone are. Close to each other, but more distinct than any of the the non-African groups. And then look at how, and, and they split off from the rest of humans. When Neanderthals were in their prime, like 50% through Neanderthals brain di de Noian were in their prime. Homo n might’ve still been around and only about like halfway between now and homo Heidelbergensis.

Right. Homo Homoerectus was still well around when most of these African groups split off. It’s

Simone Collins: crazy

Malcolm Collins: as, as you can see here. Yeah. That, that’s, it’s

Simone Collins: going way back, it’s going way, way back.

If you wanna dive deep on this topic, we have another episode, , titled Something Like Our Humans, all One Species, , where we go really deep into this and we point out some, some pretty shocking facts. Like for example, , you might be surprised that you are more genetically similar if you are [00:06:00] European.

To Neanderthals than you are to some living human groups like the Koan. , That said, , you split from the koan more recently than you split from Neanderthals. Uh, but you are still more genetically similar to Neandertals. We explained how this is the case in, in, in the video you just said go to it. , But lots of spicy stuff there.

This video was filmed before that video, but we’re beginning to get to our backlog because of Simone giving birth to our next kid.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, but I mean, this is, did you, were you aware of this by the way? Did you like understand? I had no

Simone Collins: idea. I knew that the genetic variation in Africa was.

Insane. That and that like no one seems to get it, especially ‘cause everyone’s just like black or of African descent, as if that like gloms everyone together. So yeah, I knew that that, but I didn’t realize just how long. The branch or how far back the branch off goes. That is just insane. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So we’ll be talking about a better way to sort of think about ethnic groups, even if you’re talking [00:07:00] about being more closely related.

And basically I, what, what I’ll point out is that functionally Indians middle Easterners and Europeans are one ethnic group. Oceania is one extra group. Asians are one ethnic group. Native Americans are one ethnic group. And then Africa has like five ethnic groups. If you, if you’re actually looking at the genetic distance.

Mm-hmm. And by this what I mean is you will get a genetic ants that is as large as the genetic distance between Europeans and Indians. At least the population of Indians that’s related to Northern Europeans. So here I’m talking about Brahman. ‘cause Brahman are, you might be surprised about this much more closely related to Europeans than other Indian groups.

That is, that is. Significantly closer. Wait, how and

Simone Collins: why

Malcolm Collins: than some European groups and other European groups?

Simone Collins: What, how and why?

Malcolm Collins: They were, they were descended from a conquering population that came from Europe and the steps.

Simone Collins: Okay. Okay. That explains it. Wow. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So the Indian thing is actually relevant because what you’ll notice is about a lot of these people that they are actually married to Indians.[00:08:00]

Oh, that’s what I’m saying. Like keep it within the, the ethnic group or anything like that. But the point I’m making is they’re not as unique in ethnic group as we make them out to be. Was in modern parlays.

Simone Collins: If they’re Brahman. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, well, even if they’re not Brahman, they’re still about as genetically distant from us as the most distant Europeans are from us.

Speaker 3: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. First anti-immigrant, right? Famous. Okay. Yeah. Who’s coming? Who’s coming to mind? Donald Trump. Famously right now married to a Slovenian immigrant. And his first wife was a checkout Slovakian immigrant. Next JD Vance. Obviously other other head guy at the party here constantly called for his prenatal stuff because I was talking with a reporter about this and she’s like, what about all this?

I mean like JD Vance is like a leader of the movement and he is got a kid named Vivek who doesn’t look remotely white. Like I don’t understand how you could think. JD Vance has genuine racial animosity. But, okay. Okay. Very, to be fair,

Simone Collins: white nationalists have [00:09:00] criticized him or said like, well, he could never, I would never vote for him for president because he didn’t.

Marry a white woman, but you’re gonna explain why they’re wrong. They didn’t

Malcolm Collins: Trump either. They said that they weren’t gonna vote for Trump in the last cycle. I don’t know anyone who said that. Who, who said that they were voting for Trump in the last cycle.

Simone Collins: That’s fair. That’s fair.

Malcolm Collins: We already know we don’t need those.

So like what’s the point, right? Yeah. Nigel Farage. Did you know he, he’s married to a German immigrant though. Oh. So still, still white, you know? Yeah. But but still, if you’re anti-immigrant and you’re married to a German immigrant, you know, not, not the best look. Exactly. This is Alice Weo, who we’ve talked about before, the German far right.

A FD co-leader which is seen as an anti-immigrant group. She is in a same sex relationship with kids, by the way, with Sri Lankan born immigrant with South Asian heritage. Pierre pve, Canadian conservative leader of the right wing immigration focus married to a Venezuelan immigrant, was Latin heritage.

You, you see, I’m not talking about like low people in the movement. I’m talking like leaders in every single branch of the movement is immigrants. Mm-hmm. Jeremy Hunt British [00:10:00] Conservative Ian. Former Chancellor Chancellor. Married to Lucy Gao, a Chinese immigrant Boris Johnson. Married to a marina Wheeler of half Indian heritage.

We’re getting everyone here. Rupert Murdoch married to Wendy Dang. Chinese immigrant. Current wife is Elena Zuka, Russian immigrant. Claret. Now, now we’re gonna get to well, we’ll get to them later because I put them elsewhere. Derek Chauvin the former police officer convicted of Joy Floyd’s murder.

Right. Everyone said systemically racist, right? Oh,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Married to Kelly Chauvin, a Hung Laton refugee immigrant from Asian Asia. Ian. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Laia ho Ian, refugee immigrant.

Simone Collins: God

Malcolm Collins: bless you. Thank you so much. No, but, but I’m point keep it. Richard Spencer, right. Married to a Russian immigrant, Edward Brook.

Okay. The US Senator has had two interracial marriages. A fun one here. A Joy Desher, the conservative writer and HBD advocate, race realist fired from the [00:11:00] National Review for eight racist columns. A fired from a conservative publication for being too racist. Married to Rosie Chinese immigrant

regime. Kahn been on the show before. Other direction here. This sort of race realist guy married to a white woman despite being Indian. Well,

Simone Collins: ex, ex-wife now, but yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, I’m pretty sure his ex-wife is gonna be white too. At least from who he’s dating these days. Jonathan Anomaly he.

Latin American wife, and he’s, he’s always the one who’s always called out with us. They’re like, oh, he’s a white supremacist, whatever. And it’s like, well, clearly not. He’s clearly not like anti-immigrant, like, you know, clearly not. He’s, his, his wife is, is Latin American. Hold on, Simone, we’re not to hear again.

You guys, you think I’m talking about like fringe figures here? Michelle McConnell this is sorry, Mitch McConnell. This is, this is the Senate minority leader, conservative republican, married to El Cho, Taiwanese immigrant. I didn’t know. Oh, wow. [00:12:00] That’s crazy. The, the, the, the minority leader when they were in charge, the president, the vice president, all the famous race, the quote unquote racist you know, just, just across the board here.

What, what’s funny is, is who, what, what, what conservatives actually marry white women.

Simone Collins: Yeah. What conservative? Oh,

Malcolm Collins: Clarence Thomas married a, a white woman and Thomas sells married to a white woman. Oh, there you go. What’s, what’s interesting is you actually often see this among because I, I, I noted that you actually see this among conservative women, but the relationships never last long.

You have Purley Davis who, well, she never married.

Simone Collins: She dated. No, she, I

Malcolm Collins: said the relationships don’t last long. Right. Like she broke it off. Mm-hmm. And a culture. Also Coulter famous for she’s been engaged to a black guy and I think she’s been engaged to an Indian guy as well. Hmm.

But I know she had a serious relationship for an Indian guy, at least.

Simone Collins: Is she the one who’s just had a billion engagements and just can’t nail it down?

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So I don’t know if that counts as much, but

Simone Collins: [00:13:00] that, that’s more than I thought.

Malcolm Collins: But,

Simone Collins: and it’s, it’s,

Malcolm Collins: it’s sort of like a lot of the heavy hitters as well, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, I thought your argument at the beginning was gonna be like, are you guys are crazy? Why would you marry into the longhouse white women are the problem. But what you’re saying here is like, oh, this is actually. Tacitly recognized, and people aren’t, they’re not marrying into the longhouse, they’re not marrying white women.

They’re marrying

Malcolm Collins: well. You see this in other countries, so in Korea where women are even crazier than they are in the United States. You know, you see all this, this crazy stuff in Korea, right? Like four Bs and everything like that. If you look at rural Korean men, one in four of them is married to a non-Korean.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: We have a, we have another episode. Where we look at the rates of immigration into Northern Europe, so we’re talking about like Sweden, Norway. If we, I think we look at some other European countries in the episode it’s like the incel won’t replace you or something is what we call it.

But if you look at the general immigrants who you’re seeing come in into these countries you know, from like the Middle East and stuff like that, and everyone’s like, oh my God, they’re [00:14:00] replacing us. The waves are so big. These are overwhelmingly male immigrant groups. Okay. These groups are completely canceled out in terms of statistics to the point where you get gender equal immigration statistics by passport wise being flown in

Simone Collins: pretty crazy.

Malcolm Collins: And there the passport wives are disproportionately drawn from, from some countries. The men are disproportionately drawn from other countries, but it also means that these men will be watered out. Because if they can’t find wives, which is often hard for them especially within their cultural system they, they’re, they’re going to have a harder time actually becoming a big chunk of that population.

Yeah. I mean, passport growing.

Simone Collins: Passport growing is like the IVF of marriage. Like, it, it takes a lot more effort and just not everyone’s up to the challenge. Or willing to bear the expense or capable of it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think it, it provides, you know, the [00:15:00] other thing I was mentioning to this political reporter, she goes, well, why haven’t the republican administration done more about fertility collapse?

And I was like, but what’s their motivation? Like if things keep going in this direction we win, we, we, whether we as Republicans or Americans, right? Like the countries with decent fertility rates that are still technologically and economically productive, which are the only ones relevant in terms of geopolitical power, are America, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel, all of which we’re pretty tight with.

Yeah. The ones that are the, you know, the bad ones are the ones that we have more conflict with. Like who are major geopolitical enemies. China and Russia, like they’re, they are not relevant. In a couple generations we just need to sit them out, right? And then even within our country, I’m like, look at the differential fertility rate between Trump voters and non-Trump voters.

There was a one study that was done by our, one of our fans, and, oh, Merman fertility rate is falling. It’s still higher than normal. And he pointed out that in Utah, if you separate people into population clusters, you know, [00:16:00] Trump voters who voted Mormon, Trump voters who didn’t vote sorry who are.

Trump voters who are Mormon people who didn’t vote Trump and are Mormon, and people who are not Mormon and voted for Trump and people who are neither, both not Mormon and didn’t vote for Trump. Obviously that group’s the lowest, but what surprised him was that the did not vote for Trump and Mormon group had an equal fertility to the did vote for Trump and isn’t Mormon group.

So voting for Trump is, is as good as being Mormon. In terms of fertility based. But it matters. We, we will replace them. You know, that’s the, well,

Simone Collins: I mean also I think it speaks to the extent to which the LDS church has seen a, a bottoming out of its fertility, which is now pretty much the same as American fertility, and that is dire.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Simone Collins: But yeah, I mean, still point taken.

Malcolm Collins: I know, I mean, so what, what were some of the other ones here? Do you wanna go into how different are the actual ethnic groups? Because I, I think that’s a interesting topic.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or like, yeah. Is there a [00:17:00] selection bias? Like, is, are there i non-white woman markets that are super popular versus areas from which people do just not pull?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, the point I’m making is that we have developed. A racial worldview where the world is made up of white people and Asians and Native Americans and Indians and some wide smattering around Oceania that we pretend as like. 30 different ethnic groups and then black people. And that’s who makes up the world.

And the point that I would make to people is a huge chunk of those groups are better thought of as single groups. While some of the groups, excuse me, of as single groups are better thought of as multiple groups. And when you understand this and you understand just how recent some of the splits have been between some of these groups and how much genetic sharing there was historically speaking, you realize that some of the groups that you may have thought were not.[00:18:00]

In your category are actually in your category?

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: No. No. Not I, I’m not saying that you should have animosity to groups outside of your category. It’s just very odd to me that even people who claim to be like race realist type people don’t seem to be aware of this. And they think that they are in some competition with people who are basically their brothers.

Mm-hmm. Which you can often see just from like facial characteristics, how similar groups are, or, or, or morphology, how similar groups are. But anyway, to continue here Europeans and Indians, ‘cause that was what started this was forming here, fall into the same western Eurasian cluster because of genetic similarities from ancient step and farmer migrations was FTS distance between as low as 0.03 to 0.05.

Mm-hmm. Much lower than between Europe and East Asians Approximately. 0.11. So keep in mind, 0.03 to 0.11. So, so, so dramatically [00:19:00] more distant from each other. African populations exhibit the highest genetic diversity equivalent to, or greater than the rest of humanity combined due to deeper evolutionary roots and less bottleneck effect from migrants.

Studies show high clustering where we were looking at levels like 0.03 of Africa. Yeah, it’s seven or 14. Oh. Africans split into three to five groups such as the Cosine Southern Africa, Pygmies, central Africa, Western African, Eastern Africans, and Bantu. Speaking peoples. You know, I prepped an episode on the greatest genocide in human history about how the Bantu is basically killed off most of humanity’s genetic diversity fairly recently too, and nobody ever talks about it.

Which gets even more like complicated and elevated, within current politics. When you consider that the Bantu are much more closely related to Europeans than the population groups, they were extinguishing. I.

One of my favorite things about it as well is it’s called the Bantu migration. I just love it. Of like, we called other genocides that, like [00:20:00] the Nazi migration, , it’s like , the, these giant regions they were migrating into. , Were they populated before this? Oh, they were o okay. , So what happened to those people?

Oh, they just forgot to have, they just stopped having kids. Of course. That’s the explanation.

And by the way, you, the listeners may not realize this, but there is perhaps nothing that I would say in an episode like this, like you might be, this episode covered some really controversial points then pointing out that. If it had been Europeans doing it, we would’ve called the ban to expansion, a mass genocide.

, But because it was Africans doing it, it’s complicated. And a mass migration event, I mean, you can just look at a map. You can see there were lots and lots of diverse groups around where this expansion happened. And then you just have this big expansion, like these people went somewhere. Right. You don’t have giant diverse populations covering a huge portion of the [00:21:00] African continent, just all disappear at the same time.

It’s, it’s one of these things that like, oh, you have mainstream historians who are like, oh, we can’t call it that. Oh, we can’t call it that. But if you just use your common sense,

and it’s also, by the way, really effed up in trivializing to the groups that were erased from human history because of this.

Sorry, I should clarify what makes it so obvious, because it might not be obvious to like your average person looking at this map. If you look at all the regions around where this expansion happened, you have a huge amount of linguistic and ethnic diversity. If you look at all the regions where this expansion happened, you have much less of it.

. Like, like dramatically, dramatically, much less of it. And you would expect in a region like Africa, I mean this is one of the reasons you have such genetic diversity within Africa is groups to be very, very distinct from each other in the same way. If you look at like a population that’s been settled for a long time, like England, you see very distinct accents from each other versus United States.

If you went to a region within England and there was like a [00:22:00] huge swath where everyone had almost exactly the same accent. Supposition would be that there used to be people of different accents living within this region. , And then something happened to homogenize all of their accents. Either a mass media campaign or a migration, whatever it is, is what you would call a form of cultural genocide because it erased the previously existing cultural diversity in that region.

Malcolm Collins: Fun thing to go into sometime if you guys are unaware of it or if you want me to go into it because, we don’t have a lot of written evidence of it because they didn’t really write and we don’t have a lot of memory evidence of it. We just have this like big scar through the center of Africa where it’s just one population and all the other people are like exterminated.

And you could tell very much when they moved, started moving, when they, when, where they settled, what happened to the people who used to be in these regions and how they migrated out or were exterminated. And it’s, it’s, it’s huge and chilling. If you look at a map of Africa, sort of genetic [00:23:00] clusters how many, how many groups might have been exterminated during this?

Okay. And it’s also very interesting how genetically distinct some groups are. I mean, so the, when people hear like Africans are really genetically distinct, they think American Africans and American Africans are not, I mean, I don’t wanna say that they’re. Often heavily mixed with white populations.

There’s often a lot of, of, of gene sharing with European populations. Well,

Simone Collins: they are, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They’re, they’re often heavily mixed with each other, so they’re not particularly distinct looking. But if you look at like, like a full-blooded, like Pygmy for example they look quite distinct. Yeah. Or that

Simone Collins: one tribal group that always ends up on runways.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yes. There’s a, a group in Africa, like always up on runways. Yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. Like, you know, you know exactly what I’m talking about. Beautiful statuesque. Think there are, they also produce like most of the Olympian runners. But yeah, no, yeah, there, I also imagine that I, I don’t know how, I haven’t looked at this, but with the slave trades, there were specific regions that were big [00:24:00] producers in human capital in the slave trade.

Meaning that, you know, there might’ve been specific genetic clusters from Africa that were disproportionately represented among. Mm-hmm. People of African descent now in the United States, so there might not be. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, this is also very interesting and we, I was thinking about doing an episode called like the Why Black Americans are so effed which is also in part how much of a when you look at this genetic diversity was in Africa and how long ago these groups diverged from each other to pretend that there is a shared African.

Cultural or genetic or linguistic experience is a fabrication designed to control people. Well, I think it’s just as

Simone Collins: also like insulting and inaccurate as this concept of Latino or Latina or Latinx. Like just this like, oh, well they’re all the same. No, no, they’re really, really super [00:25:00] not, these are very distinct cultures with very distinct histories.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins: Jim,

Malcolm Collins: you’re generally we’re out to kill each other. But, but not just distinct histories. I mean, we’re talking about groups here that are more culturally and genetically distinct than your average British person is from your average Native American or Japanese person is, you know, a thousand years ago or something.

Dramatically more culturally and genetically distinct, and yet we pretend that they have a shared history, which I think is you know, one of those things that makes people look as uneducated, it’s when they mistake Africa for a country. You know, like the, the country of Africa, the, the shared history of black people.

And it’s like, yeah. But to, to go over which these groups would be here. If we’re gonna divide people up, let’s say we, we need to divide people up into ethnic groups, okay? Okay. You got the cosign, you got the pygmies, you got the West African, you got the East African, you’ve got the central African bag two, you’ve got the non-African cluster here to now.

So note here if we’re dividing them, we’ve already got one, two, and this, this is not even BioGene genetic so far. This should all be [00:26:00] one cluster and everyone else should be one other cluster. But if you’re gonna divide the other cluster, as I said west Eurasian, so Europeans, Indians south Asians, middle Easterners, north Africans.

Mm-hmm. And this includes North Africans by the way. And then you’ve got East Asians. ‘cause we’re talking Northern Sahara here. Right. Then you got East Asians, which is another cluster, and then you’ve got Oceanian and then Native Americans being the final cluster here.

So, thoughts, Simone?

Thoughts on the ethnic grouping and stuff?

Simone Collins: I mean, yeah, there’s, it’s all very interesting. I. I also imagine that white women don’t really mind not being married. Like a lot of them don’t wanna be married. Just to your point about like, you know, yeah. People in South Korea, men in rural South Korea marrying primarily immigrants.

Perhaps that’s, you know, everyone wins because [00:27:00] the, the women don’t wanna marry South Korean men in, in South Korea to a great extent and a lot of. Urban monoculture, white women in the United States don’t wanna get married at all either. So this is, this is a victimless crime. I just, I had no idea how pervasive it was already.

And I think that’s really funny and just, I don’t know. This also just goes to show, and I love it, that you found a new angle to. Explain why racism is just kind of pointless and lame.

Malcolm Collins: It’s a pointless and lame concept because like people lean into it and then they meet white women and they’re like, oh man, like even like your biggest racist is like I, I mean I’ve like, I know I talked a lot about racial purity, but I am not marrying a white chick.

Like they, they do not understand a woman’s role in the household. So,

Simone Collins: you know,

Malcolm Collins: no. Well, I think the truth is, is that people aren’t actually racist in the way that they’re being painted as racist is the, [00:28:00] is the reality of the situation.

Simone Collins: I suppose, I think that there are some groups like. What are they called?

Return to land because I, I fell down a YouTube hole of like their stuff. Oh yeah. The ones for a couple days who like

Malcolm Collins: live on chicken farms. Yeah. And, and

Simone Collins: only want like people of very specific types of European descent to live on their

Malcolm Collins: chicken farm

Simone Collins: in their, that’s not a chicken. They’re like homestead land in the Ozarks.

They, they do care and they do only want white women of a very specific type. But these are also, I guess fairly difficult to find in many cases white women who in some cases are fairly unconventional. Like one of the co-founders, ex-wives who now lives on, on this property with a new husband, but the co-founder and she have four kids.

They used to post I think, OnlyFans videos of them. Yeah, [00:29:00] going at it. So you can’t necessarily describe her as being like mm-hmm. Tra trad woman. Exactly. I mean now she is, but she wasn’t before. And I think that does illustrate how like, people who really want this, this image of this demure.

Housewife are gonna really struggle to find that. And that even when you go to these extreme communities that will like actually check for your European parentage and only except super officially white people will nevertheless end up with people who don’t exactly fit. At least for the entire, we don’t

Malcolm Collins: even come close to fitting.

Come on. I, I think the whole thing is because it’s a lrp, like the left will call JD Vance racist when he’s very clearly not racist and they’ll call, you know, Gavin Newsom like a, a paragon of inter multiculturalism when he looks like a racist. If you look at his, like old pictures and stuff. I’m, I’m quite serious.

Well, so you, I

Simone Collins: [00:30:00] mean, I, I believe his wife is quite waspy looking. Oh yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s a very, yeah. His own family looks like a racist guy. Very Arian.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and, and I think the you know, we’ve, we’ve, the, the, there’s people on the left who just like accept this and in spite of all the evidence that it’s wrong, which allows them to act and engage in racist activity without the internalization of how racist the activity is.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: By the way, you, if you wanna do some numbers here remember I said Europeans to Indians is, is 0.02 to 0.05. Okay. And this is, this is lower in what exactly? Higher pass This is Indians in genetic, yeah, in distance. What are, what are

Simone Collins: the numbers you’re giving? Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I, I don’t, I dunno, exactly.

The, the distance between the genetic

Simone Collins: similarity, for example.

Malcolm Collins: I’m talking about the distance. It doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. Simone, you wouldn’t understand even if I explained it, so I don’t know why you’re [00:31:00] asking.

Simone Collins: Well, okay. Give me relative numbers then.

Malcolm Collins: That’s why I’m giving you relative numbers.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So remember I said that they are 0.02 to 0.05.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: If you’re looking interculturally within Europe, so take the lapse or the Sammy from the Sardinia. They are distant from other Europeans at 0.67, so they are more distant than some of the more or most distant Indians from Europeans.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Where do you contrast this with Europeans to Papa Owens from like Papua New Guinea.

You’re looking at 0.1 to 0.2 which is I think really interesting.

Simone Collins: That is interesting. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So here we go. We dove into the topic of why nobody wants white women. White women are the worst. I saw a video of a bunch of white women and they were complaining about how they needed to find liberal men to date them.

I’m like, what? What sort of self-respecting, like, I just want a hot, rich, liberal man with a nice mustache. And that’s what I was like, that’s a [00:32:00] pretty specific thing that you’re looking for. But many others were like, I just wanna a liberal man who’s not unattractive. And I was like, well, I mean, first, I don’t know if you knew this, but actually being liberal as a man is, is correlated with Unat attractiveness.

But,

Speaker 4: Let’s watch another one. This one got, let’s see, 40,000 likes on it. I don’t think there’s anything harder than finding a liberal boyfriend.

Speaker 5: Where is he? Where is he? Who? Who? My, my people. Are you guys helping your boyfriends? Who is love? Raise your, where’d you find. It is such a problem for me. It really is. It really is a problem and if you don’t understand why it’s incumbent, you don’t get it. Not even a liberal, like maybe like a Democrat, like a registered Democrat, but I just wanna find a dude that voted for Cowboy Harris.

I’m really struggling. I know 70 many million people voted for her, so [00:33:00] there’s gotta be one that is attractive and my type. In the general vicinity is a little bit more ridiculous than the others. Says, I’ve never seen a hot rich six two straight liberal man who lives in New York before. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Speaker 4: So Alicia is funny, okay? But they’re out there looking for you. You liberal leftist men,

Malcolm Collins: but second you’re gonna be hard to find a self-respecting guy who’s okay with, you know, being. You supporting somebody in a system’s basically like antagonistic to him?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and they, they don’t, they’re not responding necessarily to reason. I mean I think the bigger thing is that they’re badness essentially their default without marrying is just so high that they are willing to have high standards ‘cause they don’t actually care that much about getting married.

Yeah. Keeper AI created a tool that allows you to put in your criteria for a partner. And then see what percentage of the US [00:34:00] population fits your criteria in terms of income. And I think maybe you can select race, you can select height gender of course. And they, they start with that like, you know, man in finance, six foot something.

And yeah, you can see just how unreasonable these sort of standardized expectations are. Yeah. Which I think just also goes to show that they’re not interested in it. So go ahead. And this is a victimless crime and I, I think it’s great that it’s taking place. Thanks for highlighting this for me.

Malcolm Collins: The, the import we’re replacing white women.

Yeah. Anyway, gene don’t really matter. Once we have germline gene editing, by the way, for people who are all like worried about just engineer

Simone Collins: the person you want. Yeah, don’t worry about it guys.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, this will be talking about like in the age of our grandchildren, right? It’s not that important.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. I love you to Dec Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too. Oh reminder though, to people who are watching we actually have a [00:35:00] Patreon that posts two bonus episodes every weekend. I learned from comments of, of recent video we posted that people don’t realize that, and they were like, man, if you had Payed content, I’d pay for it.

And I’m like, dude, we, we do, we now post an episode on Saturday and an episode on Sunday, and it’s only for our VIPs and we have hangouts and we. Get episode suggestions from them, and it’s, it’s great. So anyway, if you wanna join more elite, micro community, you’re welcome to do so. Just check us out on Patreon.

Malcolm Collins: Love you Toon. I

Simone Collins: love you too, gorgeous. All I’m hitting end. I’m gonna send you a. Did you know that every single introduction to the Mr. Rogers TV show was unique, had unique music? Because I did not know that this like world famous jazz piano who is semi-retired to do the music for the show. So he is like, go ahead. Just like.

Malcolm Collins: That sounds like PBS just burning money.

Simone Collins: Have [00:36:00] fun with the, I mean, yeah, they must have.

Malcolm Collins: Being like, oh, well we’ve gotta hire a classical musician so the children understand what fancy music is like.

Simone Collins: I mean, I think that was just Mr. Rogers making the selection. I don’t know. You know, he probably got a general budget and chose to spend it on this, but yeah, they’re all unique, which is wild.

Speaker 3: All right.

Speaker: Okay. Do you, what do you wanna say to Andy? Hi. Andy did throw up Andy. Andy did not. It was only toasty. Toasty. Yeah. But Andy got scared. I did

a little bit. He, he standing do it in grab stick. He’s saying. He’s saying, why are you doing a video recording? Because I think you guys will like this one day. [00:37:00] Hey, and it is for YouTube Octavian. Yeah. I’m making my, do you want videos of you on YouTube?

Speaker 2: Video? How the cruise ship. Explain to me your cruise ship. Um, so like, um, did you know that the can hold about 40 Milli can hold, about 100, can hold about 100 kids because there’s 100 feet tall and one

Speaker: that’s good. Good. Very good. Very good. Good. We can be happy sleep with you. I [00:38:00] think so.

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the evolving discourse around race, identity, and mixed-race marriage. They explore how recent cultural and political shifts—especially on the far left—have led to new critiques of interracial relationships, even labeling them as problematic or “racist.” The discussion covers Dungeons & Dragons’ controversial changes to mixed-race characters, the shifting definitions of racism, and real-world examples from politics and academia. The conversation is both thought-provoking and irreverent, challenging mainstream narratives and encouraging viewers to question what it really means to be “post-racist” in today’s society.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be discussing a few topics. One is on how the far left have begun to attack and see interracial marriages and interracial humans as an inherently racist concept. The far left.

Simone Collins (2): Wait, hold

Malcolm Collins: on. I don’t know if you know this, Simone, this happened a few years ago.

‘cause it’s one of the things we’re gonna be talking about this, but did you know that d and d no longer allows characters to create mixed race characters? Wait, so like

Simone Collins (2): an elf can’t marry an ork or no such

Malcolm Collins: thing as half? No. So you can have a character that is technically a half elf. IE their mom is an alpha, but the, but the husband’s a, a human.

Okay. But they can only have the traits of either elves or humans. They can’t have the traits of both. So basically you have to choose one of your parents, and that’s your real ethnicity. Like this is considered less offensive than being mixed race. And we’re gonna be going over this incident that happened a few years ago because I think it’s actually interesting and [00:01:00] that it explains the psychology of how they think race mixing is okay.

And how they think it’s not okay. And we’ll be going into quotes from famous democratic politicians and media figures, basically attacking the concept of mixed race marriages. Oh my God, what. And on top of all that I think that this is interesting to discuss, not from a haha, look at them, they’re the racist.

Now perspective, like anybody who’s saying knows that. It’s more interesting to study from sort of the anthropological perspective of what is racism mean today to sustain people. What does it mean to Democrats? Where do we go? Societally and where are they going societally in terms of their understanding of race.

And it’s where I’ll be laying out a new concept, which I would say is what we are which I call post racist. Or if you want a longer term for it, post scientific racist which is to say. I think that the way that we [00:02:00] should relate to ethnicities and racial groups as a society mm-hmm. Is to, and this is what I would say is the position of the post racist right.

Rather than the anti-racist mm-hmm. Is to say that, you know, there are differences between groups. What those differences are might be hard to quantify, but like, you shouldn’t like re or freak out just ‘cause somebody’s like, this group is different from this group. Because when you do you can lead to really systemic damage to some populations.

Like, for example, a lot of black women are completely unaware. Did they have, I think it’s 50% higher rate of pregnancy complications in early pregnancy terminations than white women do. And so they, they don’t take, because they, they’ve been grown up told you’re biologically exactly like a white woman.

And so they don’t make and take this into account when they’re planning their fertility window, which is why when you’re looking at Americans who are over the bottom, I wanna say like 20% of income blacks have the lowest fertility rate because the, the, the black people who like. Plan, go to school, everything like that.

They, they are [00:03:00] unaware that their biology is gonna make this harder for them than it is in their, their, their white and Asian friends. Then you’ve got the, the problem of so, so. We don’t do that. But we accept our differences and we value our differences. Like humanity is good because we are diverse, and it is through that diversity that we can challenge things and learn from each other, right?

Like our first thought both the wokes and the racist do, this is what we pointed out before. It’s when they see a group out competing them. And I laid out this theory before, but it’s a very important theory to, to understand when you’re talking about differences between groups. IE. This group has more money or more political power or more success than this group.

There are only three explanations for that. One explanation is cultural differences. One explanation is genetic differences, and the other explanation is they put some sort of something systemic into practice that basically cheats the system in their favor.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And the problem is, is that [00:04:00] when you say that groups are not culturally different.

And anybody who says that certainly believes groups aren’t genetically different, it means you assume all differences are due to somebody cheating. And you know, this is as true when BLM says that they’ve been cheated by white populations as it is when white supremacists say that the Jews cheated them.

You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a toxic similarity between these two groups

Simone Collins (2): for sure.

Malcolm Collins: The post racist seems and says, I won’t fall for that. I will admit that some groups. Can create systemic biases in their favor. Yeah. As Simone talked about, you know, like Vietnamese nail salons and stuff like that.

Cartels

Simone Collins (2): and the Patel Motels, et cetera. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And that sometimes a society can, even through slavery or something, you know, create dramatic systemic advantages for certain groups. Mm-hmm. But that it is important to focus on cultural differences. And eventually when it’s was in the realm of things we can control genetic differences

Malcolm Collins (2): mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Just as much. Yeah. The reason why we don’t focus much on genetic [00:05:00] differences right now is it’s just not something you could do much about. So, being aware that it exists. Is different. And, and note here, I have made no claims about differences in say IQ between Es ethnic groups. Mm-hmm. We have never ever said that.

And we, we won’t say that. But I wanna go into the DD thing because I think it’s interesting and then we’re gonna go into quotes where, this is so crazy though. Just

Simone Collins (2): like the very premise that you set out is so blowing my mind because I grew up believing that racism was. I hate this group or this group is bad.

And now I’m realizing that all the racism that people are being accused of, like within our social networks is how dare you recognize genetic differences? Which is insane. But that also, yeah, the only groups I know of that are like, this group is evil. Are the ones saying, are you ashamed of your white privilege?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Which is so crazy. We had somebody

Malcolm Collins: ask us that a couple days ago. That’s why this is top of mind.

Simone Collins (2): Okay, go on though. This is, this is just blowing my mind because I, I had [00:06:00] always thought that like the racism that you know, like the definition of racism has always. Like, oh, it hasn’t changed, but like, man, the, it really has.

Yeah, it has changed.

Malcolm Collins: And I think we need a new definition for whatever wokes are, because I think you can just call them racist, but they’re, they’re kind of something new that has the qualities that would’ve been defined as racist in the nineties or whatever. But of course, they won’t accept that RA label.

So, what, what, what can we call them? I don’t know. You, you can think of some new term for this as we go through this other than just post races. Chime

Simone Collins (2): in the comments.

Malcolm Collins: But wizards of the Coast, a company that publishes the official materials of the Roleplaying game, DUNS and Dragons, is planning to eliminate the half elf, half ORC races in forthcoming editions.

They say the half elf construct is inherently racist according to game designers. By the way, I’m reading for reason here. This is them talking here. Frankly, we are not comfortable and haven’t been for years with any of the options that start with half said Jeremy Crawford, a DD rules, designers a [00:07:00] at a virtual event last weekend to play d and d.

It’s necessary to design characters with specific race. Human elf, dwarf, gnome, et cetera, and specific class ranger, barbarian, cleric, et cetera. The official materials offer guidance for doing so. The races and classes have specific characteristics. Elves have long natural lifespans. Orcs can see in the dark and so on.

But players can also make a character with mixed racial traits. Half elves are characters. Ways that one human parent and one elf parent half orcs are characters. Ways that one human. Parent and one orc parent. Well, it’s possible to design other mixed race characters. Again, official materials make it clear that everyone can do whatever they want.

These two combinations are specifically listed ones and they have their own traits. Well, not anymore. According to several reports from DD players who witness the event, the official materials are dropping. These classes due to concerns of inherent racism. Players who want a mixed character will be advised to choose one race from which to draw their traits.

Is [00:08:00] this

Simone Collins (2): the same for like Rangers and barbarians?

Malcolm Collins: No. A Ranger is a class, not a race.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, sorry, I don’t bad at this.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Speaker 5: I don’t know nothing about this. Dean, do you? So

Malcolm Collins: the game will prompt you to either have elf or human to round out your game related qualities.

Simone Collins: Okay. And

Malcolm Collins: this is what I find so interesting because I really wanna dive into this because I think it’s fascinating. So to go into the mechanics here for gameplay, select one species as, quote unquote, primary heritage primary.

You made all the traits and features of that subra lineage options

Simone Collins (2): this reminds me so much of how, like, when, when people have mixed race heritage, it’s super common in modern culture for like, let’s say you have like Obama, right? White mom, black dad. He’s still like the first black president.

The first,

Malcolm Collins: well, so I think that’s part of where this comes from. So let’s, let’s talk about this Uhhuh. There’s the hilarious [00:09:00] South Park ad. That’s an ad for 23 and me to find out what percent victim you are.

But basically what this is codifying.

Speaker 2: , I thought I was just a standard white guy, but DNA and me showed that I’m actually 4.2% Cherokee Indian.

Speaker 3: Turns out I’m not totally white. I’m also part Northern Asian and even some Kurdish, I’m a victim of oppression.

Speaker 4: People made fun of me for being French DNA and me showed I was 8% Navajo. Nobody’s making fun of me now, or my people who are victims. I’m 13% victims.

Speaker: I’m 21% victim.

Malcolm Collins: Into d and d is you get to choose any one part of your heritage, no matter how small it is.

Simone Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And a hundred percent identify as that portion of your heritage. That’s totally how

Simone Collins (2): people do though, unless they choose to be, you know, you know

Malcolm Collins: Pocahontas, Elizabeth Warren.

No, no, no. It’s how Wokes do, it’s not how I think productive individuals do. Yeah, for sure. [00:10:00] Sure. I don’t think it’s how a healthy society works. Yeah. But what’s also really fascinating is within a d and D world, you know, nobody argues that orcs and elves and humans and dwarves do not have different biological features.

Like nobody’s gonna argue that an elf has the strengths. Of an orc. Yeah. Right. Nobody’s, nobody’s I think historically, a few people would argue that, you know, a, a human has the innate skill for metalworking that a dwarf has. Yeah. And so this is accepted within any sort of fantasy world.

Right. And so they’re not denying when they draw the offspring of say, you know, a human and an orc. That that offspring is not going to by any sane measure of the imagination beat 80 human in an arm wrestle, for example.

Speaker 5: Yeah. [00:11:00]

Malcolm Collins: But they say that we have to pretend that that’s not the case. That we have to pretend that they are either just as strong as an ORC or just as weak as a human.

Simone Collins (2): And, and so that’s how your stats come out. If you choose to identify if you’re half or half human and you choose to identify as human, does that mean like your stats in the game are, are

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins (2): Your stats are what you identify as? I mean, I don’t know, like, I feel like when people choose their identities, it ki it does affect their outcome, even if it’s like.

You know, not their chosen identity, but

Malcolm Collins: it’s so it’s not just around ethnicity here. Okay. But o obviously this has a lot of parallels to the trans community and stuff like that. Like this idea that you can look at, you know, strong man from South Park and you can be like, obviously that sports competition isn’t fair.

Like I can see Leah Thomas, right. That was the one who did the competition. Um mm-hmm.

Simone Collins (2): The swimmer. Yeah. Leah Thomas. I

Malcolm Collins: can see. She has dramatically more muscle mass. [00:12:00] Yeah. But than I have ever seen on a biological woman

Simone Collins (2): treating the world the way it’s supposed to be, which is once you choose to identify as see in the correct world, Leah Thomas would’ve begun to suck at swimming when she transitioned.

The problem is that reality is just unjust.

Malcolm Collins: I actually love, like, I’m imagining like in d and d you know, that that half orc like joins the, the weightlifting competition and it’s like, but I identify with my human parents. Like, yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Whatcha talking about? You know? Yeah. Just being like this whole subplot of how like, half orcs and half elves are like exploiting human competition realms.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And they’re like everything. It’s not on my stat blocks. Look at my stats. No, I’m actually imagining here, you know this, there’s like is a K where you’re taken to like a video game world. Yeah. Except like woke racists are enforcing this way of doing the rules on everyone and like obviously it’s not working and you have like orcs identifying as elves to like go into like elf weightlifting competitions.

Yes. [00:13:00] Elves identifying as it works to go into their like gymnastics competition. But you just

Simone Collins (2): know that like in these fantasy worlds and like the racism or I don’t know, a speciesism whatever, would be like so much stronger than it already is. No, but

Malcolm Collins: that’s what’s so, okay, so this is why I found this. So telling before we go into all these instances is you and I are here and we look at something like the trans people in sports or something like that, right?

Yeah. And we’re like. I have eyes, I is it that, that these people don’t have eyes? Is it that these people like cannot make a basic biological judgment here, right? To me.

Speaker 8: I have a lot of incredible trans friends who are athletes, and so we’re all inspired this woman’s competing Uhhuh. She’s not exactly your average trans athlete.

Well, what is an average trans athlete?

Honestly, I find that kind of bigoted, David.

Speaker 7: Okay.

Speaker 9: Now that I can compete as

Speaker 7: female, I’m ready to smash the other girls.

Speaker 9: I’m gonna rule up the other [00:14:00] women here and I’m gonna smoke ‘em. I am the strongest woman

Speaker 7: this state has ever seen.

Malcolm Collins: But, but so I look at that and I’m like, surely maybe it’s just that we’re not. Dimorphic enough, right? But what you see within the d and d example, which is really, really fascinating and helps elucidate the way they actually see ethnic groups.

You see that no, even if it was so patently obvious that no one could conceivably deny it. IE the half orc or something like that. Right. They would still choose to deny it. Keep in mind, this Wizard of the Coast team, it got through like an entire diversity like review board, right? Like no, of course

Simone Collins (2): it did.

But wait, hold on. Is this the logistical

Malcolm Collins: thing? Of course it did, but to me, outside of the woke mob and, and, and, and circles and everything like that, mm-hmm. [00:15:00] I hear about this and I’m thinking. That’s obviously racist, right? To ban, but like,

Simone Collins: no, it’s just how it’s supposed to be. It’s just how it’s supposed to be.

So they’re like, it’s, it’s correct. Right.

Malcolm Collins: But it shows the way that they want to apply this within our own reality as well, and that it’s well enough conceived that, that this idea of. Even though they look like a man, even though they have the muscle of a man, no, they’re not a man.

Simone Collins (2): They’re not a man. And they have the stats of woman because they’re not a man.

So I think that

Malcolm Collins: matters in terms of that way of relating to race. Okay. Right. Okay. Like race is well, while sort of being transracial is still something like Azar or whatever, who like pretended to be black and had like no black heritage like this is something that’s still really looked down upon the idea of pretending or taking ownership of an ethnic group.

Is I think, way more flexible in progressive circles than we pretend it is on the right or that they pretend it is A [00:16:00] quick

Simone Collins (2): logistical question for. People like me who are outside that haven’t ever played d and d, could this have just been a logistical constraint? Like it’s just too hard for dungeon Masters to, or like for players in general just set up a, a statute that gets mixed?

Malcolm Collins: No, they, they said why, look, I, I literally read their quotes about this, Simone. I know, but

Simone Collins (2): maybe they did that for like. Social points within their leftist circles because of this has been dominated by leftist factions, but in the end it was just a logistic, we’re fun to

Malcolm Collins: have more diversity for like min maxing stats and everything.

Simone Collins (2): Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And so this, this was very explicitly done for, for diversity reasons to be on the woke side of history. ‘

Simone Collins (2): cause before you would, you could mix them right.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, it was norm. Oh, so this,

Simone Collins (2): like, it wasn’t a problem that was being fixed because at first I was like, well, maybe it was for five

Malcolm Collins: additions. It wasn’t a problem.

No.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. Yeah, it was like, I don’t know, maybe you have to like add, you know, add numbers and then average them out and it, it just takes too much time. And that dive No, no.

Malcolm Collins: The, the set stats for half Ls, half or half, they’re all given like, oh, they were just, oh

Simone Collins (2): God. Okay. So you just look it up in the book.

This is

Malcolm Collins: even something additional they [00:17:00] can sell because there’s more pages in their book. Dude, you’re right.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. Okay. Sorry. That just, that was necessary. I didn’t know that. I Now thank you for telling me.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So wait, what was the point I was making when you interrupted me? , I remember the point. It was very important, so I’m glad I didn’t forget it. The second one is, is, is this applies even to ethnic group with only one exception among Wokes. So, you’re people are like, oh, you can’t just say that you’re black was in woke circles.

Right. And I’d be like, actually. You can, as long as you can pass as having any meaningful black heritage. So if an individual, for example, was in woke circles, was let’s say one eighth, black or something like that and they said, I’m black. And you said if you are anything other than like, obviously blacker than them.

No, you’re not black. You don’t look back. You don’t pass as black. This would be seen as an incredibly offensive thing to say within their circles. And I’ve noticed as well, within woke circles that this becomes a particularly easy way to get the bipoc [00:18:00] background by claiming Native American heritage. Because you may not look Native American, you know, and so you can claim it, or by claiming, latinx heritage because nobody knows, you know, Latinx white people are Latinx, right? Like you’re from Argentina or whatever, right. You know? Yeah. You could be like

Simone Collins (2): literally 100% Italian. And MIT Romney

Malcolm Collins: is Latinx, right? Like he is, his parents were Mexicans, weren’t they? Google, I’m sure they were. You know, so he’s more Latinx than most Wies, right?

And if he said, I’m Latinx and you tried to challenge him on this and you are to the right of him you get immediately dog piled. So, I I, I think that this is really important to note that when they say that we haven’t entered this sort of, I can identify as whatever race I want, we actually are already well in the.

I can identify as whatever race I want with the only caveat that it gets tricky when you’re identifying as black. And you probably want some small amount of [00:19:00] heritage from that group, but it’s considered very offensive to question individuals because they don’t unquote path, which was the point historically, the reason why.

You would sometimes identify somebody. As say black, even though they would have, you know, a half white or a white parent, right, is you’d say, well, they looked black enough that they experienced. All the oppression that goes, oh yeah, people saw them

Simone Collins (2): as black and therefore treated them. So this is where this logic

Malcolm Collins: started.

Okay? But it’s no longer there anymore. You can very clearly pass as a white European and claim Latinx heritage or claim black heritage. It’s, is what I’ve seen. So we gotta talk about, you know, that, right? Like identities are choice now. But the second thing is how they relate. To ethnic heritage, which I think is really important.

Okay. Because clearly here, the reason they’re uncomfortable with this is in their heads. Which by the way was not the case for me in my head. I never understood orcs to be black people. But in their [00:20:00] head if they’re like, well, it’s offensive that, you know, half orcs exist. Then they’re saying that these are like ethnic groups and not like species.

Right. And as such. They’re saying that they always were kind of uncomfortable one with ethnic group mixing but two, with the idea that you could inherit some traits from one ethnic group and some traits from another ethnic group.

Simone Collins (2): Now Okay. I’m sorry. I just need for, again, for me and all the other non d and d people, I know that Orx from the Lord of the Rings universe are sort of, I mean, you could say genetically modified or, or, or modified through treatments elves, so.

Ally’s actually. Okay. So they’re indeed either just this separate evolved. You have mentioned this a

Malcolm Collins: number of times that you think is a universal true thing about Orx and it is literally only token. I mean

Simone Collins (2): like the Lord of the Rings universe is pretty big.

Malcolm Collins: Literally only the Lord of the Rings universe works.

Are, are, are like that. That is interesting. That is never okay. I maybe [00:21:00] people will school me and there’ll be like one other mainstream fantasy world, but it is not a common factor of ORs.

Simone Collins (2): Well, thank you. I needed to know that. I just, because I wasn’t sure, I was like, it’s, it’s weird to. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: By far the most common trope of orts, even in the late eighties was like noble savages.

Like they were very tribal. They were very savage. But they you know, upheld honor and everything like that. Like the

Simone Collins (2): res of the fantasy world?

Malcolm Collins: No, I said noble savages. Oh, noble,

Simone Collins (2): sa oh, oh, oh. So like structured and not crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, more. They’re often structured like, sort of like Native American tribes and stuff like that when they’re, when they’re doing them.

Oh, okay. So like

Simone Collins (2): closer to the earth, less, less in their high towers and

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. I gotcha. All right. Gotcha. Gotcha. Thanks.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and so, this, this has been a thing for a while, but anyway, the point here being is sorry. You, you go on big tangents. Just

Simone Collins (2): I need to, no, I need, I don’t,

Malcolm Collins: how do you watch so little [00:22:00] fantasy?

We just,

Simone Collins (2): because I do the work, I do the, I pay the bills. I

Malcolm Collins: thank you for that, Simone. Spreadsheets. I really appreciate it.

Simone Collins (2): Clean.

Malcolm Collins: But the, the point here being is that they think that ethnicity is something that you. Choose and you choose one. And you’re not really supposed to choose two. And this is true with in woke circles for mixed race individuals.

Hmm. I, I, I, I even see, and you can sound off in the comments here, some shaming when people attempt to combine traditions from both of their parents. Well, it is the

Simone Collins (2): urban monoculture to be fair.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s adopt one identity. So I’m not confused about your position in our social hierarchy. And that identity is sort of like your, your personal branding or whatever, and unrelated to your biological reality.

Which is really interesting. And I think that that is part of what the modern I guess we’ll call it, woke racism [00:23:00] is instead of the post racism. ‘cause right now it’s dealing with like the, the reason we use the term post racism is because. Usually for people to sort of enter a post racist mindset and be like, it’s okay that we’re different.

You have to. Go through learning about those differences, accepting those differences, and then understanding that they’re just not that important with the current genetic technology that, that we have, you know, coming down the pipeline.

Malcolm Collins (2): Makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: And, and that. That this is okay, that it is.

Diversity wouldn’t have value if we weren’t actually different, right? If everyone was interchangeable with everyone else, there would be no reason to say that diversity is a thing of value, be that cultural or genetic diversity. And so, and I think that that is, you know, as you said about this, you’re like, it’s sort of like dune, you know, you, you, the pain box, right?

You must face your racism and let it pass through you. Mm-hmm. That is, is, is where. You go to enter a truly non-racist world, [00:24:00] it is through all of the threats that come with traditional racism. Because if you refuse to engage with those threats, you end up in this alternate crazy world where every group difference is because somebody’s cheating.

Mm-hmm. And therefore, any group that is outcompeting your group must be destroyed. And this always leads to things like antisemitism and stuff like that.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And no, I’m not saying that an idea is bad because it leads to antisemitism. An idea may lead to antisemitism and be perfectly valid.

I’m just arguing to the wokes who sometimes care about antisemitism that, that this mindset is always going to take you there. Or to you know, are reformed Jew viewers who think that staying on the left side is still a good idea. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. If you promote this ideology, it ends with your group being targeted.

But it leads with any group that’s that’s out competing. Yeah. But I, I wanna now get to do you have any thoughts on this before we go further, Simone? On

Simone Collins (2): no dive deeper. This just, my mind was already blown at the very beginning of [00:25:00] this when I realized that, you know, racism was totally different from what I thought it was as a kid.

Malcolm Collins: So this is representative Jasmine Crocker, a democrat in Texas,

Who was talking in, in 2025 about Brian Donalds a a black man. And she’s a member of the squad so, you know, very prominent, right? And she said that his marriage to a white woman whitewashes him, making him less authentically black.

Simone Collins (2): So he feels like a race traitor.

Malcolm Collins: No, she says he’s not really black because he married a white woman. He doesn’t get to claim to be black. See, this is the thing about the left.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, whoa.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. This is an elected politician this year, said this. Not like, oh, ‘cause he’s married

Simone Collins (2): outside his, what? That is, how can she,

Malcolm Collins: so what’s interesting is, remember how I said that?

Like they can identify as whatever they want. Like if Elizabeth Warren wants to identify as Native American, that’s not offensive from a Democrats [00:26:00] perspective. Right? But if you. Are not a Democrat, and if you are not within the urban monoculture, if you challenge it, then people within the urban monoculture get to identify what you are.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And that’s what we’re seeing here, right?

Speaker 5: No, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: In shared by, at Rob, the builder a self-described liberal he warned of and, and I’ve seen these in the wild as well. Warning of ization. When he was talking about how white women in woke circles scrutinize interracial relationships as exploitative he dated a dark skinned Indian woman last summer.

But she was repeatedly warned by white liberal acquaintances who didn’t know him, that his interest was likely a racial fetish or tokenization to signal virtue. What a quote from his on. He goes on three separate occasions from three different people. She was warned that my attraction to her was likely either a fetish and or tokenization, whatever that means.

Simone Collins (2): That is [00:27:00] so weird is this, because there are now prominent conservatives who are in mixed race marriages, and now it’s a

Malcolm Collins: lot of prominent conservatives are in mixed race marriages. Yeah. But keep in mind that this never ma, it doesn’t matter when as the classic, you know, incredibly anti-white you know, black progressive woman marries Jewish guy.

Trope. Yeah. And, and we point out, if you look at the conservatives, the one see that they’re always saying a racist, like, you know, JD Vance will be like married to you know, a

Malcolm Collins (2): v

Malcolm Collins: Indian woman, right? Indian kids, right? You see, you see this all the time, right? Like the, they clearly don’t mean whatever we used to mean by racist when they’re calling him a racist, right?

They’re talking about some new distinction. And so I’m trying to categorize these two new systems of thought post racism and woke racism. As the, as the diametrically opposed, instead of both schools pointing out ways in which each one of them is more like what we historically called racism in the nineties.

And I will agree that some parts of post racism are closer to what we call racism in the [00:28:00] nineties than woke racism. But overall woke racism is way closer. I’d say it’s like 80% towards woke racism in terms of whatever we call racism in the nineties, because

Simone Collins (2): my memory of, of nineties racism. Was totally okay with accepting genetic differences.

In fact, there was a celebration of the variety of humans and it was like, we’re different and isn’t that cool? And isn’t it cool that this person isn’t like you and has different culture and heritage? And our strength is in that variety that, wait, so where?

Malcolm Collins: So let’s keep going here. Okay.

Simone Collins (2): Okay.

Malcolm Collins: In a paper titled The Marriage Fundamentalist Guide to the End of the World, Occidental College, sociology Professor Lisa Wade, A prominent voice in gender and racial studies, often cited in progressive academia.

Okay? Argued that marriage itself reinforces quote white hetero patriarchal supremacy in quote,

Simone Collins (2): oh, that’s why she calls it a marriage fundamentalist.

Malcolm Collins: Wow. [00:29:00] Yeah. Representatives Brian Donalds highlighted it in his response, try, try tying it to criticism of his own interracial marriage. As left-leaning commentators used it to question the legitimacy of his mixed race unions under systemic racism.

And then quote here, marriage fundamentalism like structural racism, is a key in structuring element of white hetero patriarchal supremacy In quote,

Speaker 5: hetero patriarchal supremacy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. In a, in a widely discussed essay, journalist Paul kicks in an interracial marriage was a black woman, described a shift in liberal attitudes post 2020.

So I note here, this has also been recent, which is pretty interesting. Mm-hmm. At a neighborhood gathering, a white progressive mother questioned his fitness to raise their biracial children, reflecting water woke weariness about white partners in mixed race families, and it heightened the focus on racial supremacy of color.

He said quote, I don’t [00:30:00] know how you can raise black children right now in quote, and this was in the essay the free press essay. Liberals once embraced interracial marriages like mine. What changed? And we might do a separate episode or we just go over this essay. ‘cause I think that sounds pretty interesting.

But I think that this is true. Like if you believe in racial supremacy, right? Mm-hmm. Like it black people are genuinely superior or more fragile or more like, like somehow needing of a different class of parents. Like you would look at the white person raising them and be like, how can you be good enough to be the parent to these black?

Yeah. But

Simone Collins (2): if, if it’s a mixed race. That, that means that that person’s genetics is also when their kid and, and they’re the best person the way they

Malcolm Collins: see it. And that’s what’s really fascinating, right? That’s, that’s where the DT thing comes in. These children are only black in these people’s minds. And not only that, but these children would have the right to are and are expected to.

The reason why they’re like the father should be ashamed and not the mother is because they expect the kids to choose their [00:31:00] black identity and not their white identity. This is

Simone Collins (2): shockingly regressive. I cannot believe it. It’s not

Malcolm Collins: good. Like we are fighting against true evil here. Like I, I want to be clear, right?

These are not like, there’s some good to it and there’s some bad to it, but I think that there is good in trying to delineate what they believe and better understand what they believe about what race really is and how your race is really determined,

Simone Collins: I suppose.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. At Yoo’s three, a verified ex-US in queer and leftist communities critiqued the framing of interracial relationships, often white plus non-white as progressive symbols.

They argued these dynamics historically benefited white men and aren’t truly emancipatory. So here’s the quote. One. Interracial relationships are not inherently progressive. Two miscegenation laws were historically introduced by white men. Ending them has was done [00:32:00] primarily to benefit white men.

Three interracial is almost synonymous, was white plus other, no, it’s not. But this is what they think. This is not something that he gets pushed back on, you know, this is Yeah. Normal in these. Yeah. It’s just stated without

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Communities and stuff like that. Right. And I think that this is why we also need something other than scientific racism, which I’m quite against.

Mm-hmm. Quite against scientific racism is to say you know. Racial groups are genetically quite distinct from each other, and this significantly matters to the way we structure society. And that it is important to understand often, you know, as, as a sidebar to this, which groups are the good ones and which ones are the bad ones.

And, and you know, some scientific races will be like, I don’t do that third thing, and it’s. You know, a lot of people in the community do, right. Like you, you, you know they do. Right? And I think that that’s not a healthy way, and that’s why I, I, I opt to this post racist category.

Malcolm Collins (2): Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Where you have gone through that [00:33:00] understanding and you’ve come out at a more logical endpoint than a racial obsession either in the form of scientific racism or in the form of leftism modern woke racism.

So, if, what was I gonna find some other fun ones here. Oh, yes. Let’s do Robin DeAngelo. What, what did, what did, does she have to say?

Simone Collins: She’s still doing stuff kind made for a long time.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So she said, and then I’m a big believer in affinity space and affinity work, and I think people of color need to get away from white people and have some community with each other.

Simone Collins (2): Bring back segregation.

Malcolm Collins: Bring back segregation. Yes. So ya zong and anti-racist narratives in interracial marriages. This was August, 2022 and this is discussed a lot that year. So in Psychology Today, a mainstream progressive leaning psychology outlet this PhD and academic and and an [00:34:00] interracial couple herself highlights how post 2020 anti-racist activism frames white partners as inherent oppressors.

This narrative drawn from figures like Abram Key. Ex Kennedy and Robin DeAngelo questions the authenticity of mixed race unions. And so she said, why would oppressed persons want to marry their oppressors? And if these activists are right, wouldn’t we have to conclude that no authentic relationship could exist between white and non-white people?

Simone Collins (2): Maybe because these aren’t oppressed people marrying their oppressors because slavery was abolished a while ago, maybe.

Malcolm Collins: I know, and then people would be like, well, it hasn’t been enough time for them to catch up. And I’m like, well then why do, why do Japanese Americans out earn white Americans? Like Yeah, despite internment were much more recently.

And you could be like, well that wasn’t as long. And I’m like, well, it’s still re zero them. You know, so, so, and then people can be like, well, well see. The thing is, is you’re not taking into account the cultural effects of X many years of slavery. And he goes, ah, right there, the cultural [00:35:00] effects. So that means that it can be addressed, intitally not, it doesn’t need to be enforced from the outside.

If anything, watch the other episode. We’re gonna have a releasing around this. If you do handouts, whether it’s DEI or whether it is, in terms of cash handouts, you usually hurt the community in question. And there was a great study on this that showed that if you’re looking at, and note here, I’m not saying for genetic reasons, it’s just everybody knows, well, not everybody knows, but like if, if you’re aware of like, the research into discrimination and everything like that black students in America.

Score lower than white students and earn less than than white individuals. This is also true for Latin American Americans. And if, if you’re like, okay, where are these differences? The smallest and where are they? The biggest,

Malcolm Collins (2): the

Malcolm Collins: biggest in democratic areas, and they’re the smallest in Republican areas.

So that means that when you have intergenerational Republican leadership you, you get. Less distance between ethnic groups. Meaning, meaning more equality. But that’s because you’re getting less DEI and [00:36:00] less handouts, which increase these things. I, I see our DEI videos on this. Anyway, so, to continue here, sociologists Isha Soland Cole Research published by Rice University, a progressive academic institution argues that mixed race marriages don’t inherently challenge racism and can even reinforce it through colorblind assumptions. Progressive media outlets like the Garland Guardian amplified this in 2023 to 2024 when they were getting called mad at us.

In caution, viewing interracial unions as a solution to systemic issues, potentially stigmatizing them is performative. Yeah, I performatively got married and had kids with somebody for my entire life. I mean, I’m not gonna argue it never happens, but like, I don’t think that, like JD Vance Oh, like the

Simone Collins (2): political lesbians of.

Race warriors.

Malcolm Collins: So as, as, as a quote here, interracial couples often serve as proof that we are indeed making positive liberal advancements, particularly when they have children. But this presumption can undermine the [00:37:00] racism of the extended family members who encounter the couple.

Simone Collins (2): So based on what are they even asserting that, I mean, first when you actually look at the data mixed race marriages are at a higher rate in the United States, at least today than they ever have been historically.

They’re becoming increasingly common. And, and oh, the other really important piece of data here too, which I think is just so important and so telling is that. Say what you will about gold diggers. It’s actually very unusual for people to marry outside their educational wealth or whatever status class.

So the fact that there are more mixed race marriages to me says that there is less of a functionally perceived and felt barrier between people of different racial backgrounds that they are seeing themselves as in the same class because we are really entering a post race world. And I just that they’re trying to go back.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I [00:38:00] think Simone, it’s important to remember that in a modern context white supremacy has a big. Over diversity problem is just too diverse a movement, the white supremacist movement.

Malcolm Collins (2): No,

Malcolm Collins: we need to, we need to, there’s too many black and Indians in it and it, it needs a, a cleaning because I have seen, you know, leftists complain about this a lot recently is, is, is the problem with all the diversity in the white supremacist movement.

But it’s, it’s a joke because the people who, the left frame is white supremacists who are not white supremacists, they’re just not woke racist. The, they. And, and again, the reason I make up this post racist label is it is a very different view about race than the race realists have.

And it’s a very different root view about race than being against racism when it is in the nineties, because I think in the nineties there was still this sort of underlying fear of being like, it’s okay to admit that people are different from each other.

And yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Well, and that, that, that our [00:39:00] differences are, are strengths. They’re good things.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. That diversity would have no value. If no human group was actually different from any other human group, we would be interchangeable. Mm-hmm. There wouldn’t be a reason to think of groups differently. Mm-hmm.

And there’d be no reason to say, oh, we need X many of X type of person in this office for maximum. It’s like, well, apparently all men and women are completely interchangeable. You know,

Simone Collins (2): except they aren’t. And stay in your lane and don’t ever pretend to.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it’s about accepting reality and what they’re doing, which is really interesting and I think we see from the d and d is that race has become an optional identity.

In the same way that they’ve kind of done this with sexuality, where really anyone on the left can identify. With, well, pretty much any sexuality they want. Yeah. They get to, you can be like, well, they can’t identify as gay. And it’s like, well, they can identify as a woman and now they’re gay, you know?

Simone Collins (2): Oh, that’s true. Yeah. You can, yeah. There you go. [00:40:00]

Malcolm Collins: So sexuality doesn’t matter anymore. You know, arousal patterns don’t matter anymore. What you’re actually born doesn’t matter anymore. It’s all a choice. And what’s what’s interesting is that this whole mindset around this all being a choice. Is downstream of an imperialist and European descendant culture.

Which is one of the things I always point out about. And by that what I mean is when you point out, they’re like, well, I love Muslims. And I go, well, you know, Muslims in Pakistan have a lot of views that you’re gonna disagree with. And they’re like, well, one day they’ll agree with all my views because we will eradicate what makes their culture distinct.

Yeah. You know, so I, I think that, that’s always really hilarious to me. But anyway. Any, any thoughts, Simone, before we close out here?

Simone Collins (2): I’m just horrified. I, I just, I, I can’t,

Malcolm Collins: but I mean, it is so mainstream that this is d and d now. This is Wizard of the Coast. This is the world we live in now.

Simone Collins (2): It doesn’t, it, it only makes the game more boring.

You’ve just taken out No, we got

Malcolm Collins: [00:41:00] fired over this. No big uprising happened. Just.

Simone Collins (2): But I mean, you had more choices in the past that

Malcolm Collins: Yes, you did have more choices. Society was more interesting. I mean, it’s also like outside of DN it’s, it’s not just stupid, it’s, it’s it’s. It’s unproductive, it, it’s stupid, unproductive.

And it is sort of anti-real. And it’s what shocks me even

Simone Collins (2): more though, is like,

Malcolm Collins: bro, you know, I’ve said, I suspect there to be, as people begin to realize that the mainstream right now is like, I might be naming post racism or other people might have named it already. But, or, or posts scientific racism, I think is a, a sort of good full term for it.

Hmm.

But. It is the normative position within the online, right, right now. It is the normative position among youth these days. If, if, if you talk to them who are not woke, brainwashed it is not like, our [00:42:00] position that we’re trying to convince you of. I’m, I’m sure the vast majority of our listeners, when I hear this term, they’re like, oh yeah, that describes my view of this concept.

And it’s a view that’s just sort of like, believe the evidence. But don’t be a spazz about it and start like overly building your life around it

Speaker 5: basically. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: In the same way that you know, when people are like, well, you know, if X group was really better at X or Y, would that not change your daily decisions?

It’s like anybody who’s done like a 23 and me or like a, a genetics poll because that poll said that you were supposed to be good at something. Did you decide to like, change your life based on that? Were you like, oh, this poll says I’m gonna be really good at coding. I guess I’m gonna leave my job and become a coder even though I don’t like coding.

No. You still do what you wanna do. Like it matters so little. And this is where I always talk about when people are like, oh, well, you know, if you knew that you had X predilection, like that would [00:43:00] be really dangerous. People ask us about us with our kids, you know? ‘cause we get them genetically sequenced.

Malcolm Collins (2): Oh. And I’m like,

Malcolm Collins: you never freaked out about people’s horoscopes and, and these people believe this. Yeah. So how is this be different anyway? I know, I love that. Like far woke women, they will be like, there is no difference between these two, you know, very distinct cultural andic groups. And then I’m like, well, you know, I was born on X months.

And they’re like, oh, you’re a Scorpio. Well I need to look, I need to, ugh, that this relationship will never work. Like, it’s so weird actually. Like, I just wanna be like, it’s so weird that we are like discriminating on race. People will freak the F out. But if you discriminate based on horoscope, people are like, that’s totally normal.

Like, oh, I won’t date Aries, obviously. How is that better?

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, it’s not, [00:44:00] it’s not

Malcolm Collins: you ever before then. Yeah, but it’s,

Simone Collins (2): it is just, it’s, it’s acceptable because it’s not race. It’s the month in which you b were born, which you also have no control over.

Malcolm Collins: But fortunately we now can discriminate on race. It’s, it’s been said, they laid it out.

There’s just some rules for how you do it.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Rule number one, do not be white.

Malcolm Collins: No, you can be white as long as you’re a Democrat. Mm.

Simone Collins (2): Hey, Democrat. Still have to be ashamed of your white privilege.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. You, you just have to say, I’m ashamed of it and, but, but you are more white. P And then find something

Simone Collins (2): else to, you know, you, you’re like, you have pots and, you’re trans and or non-binary and or suffering from severe mental disorders, et cetera, et cetera. Spoony something. Anyway, I’m gonna go get the kids. I’m gonna make your bullock for dinner.

Malcolm Collins: Did you look at the video on how they’re cooked?

Simone Collins (2): I’m gonna look at it right before I cook them, but I’m gonna cook them before I start the cooking.

Saute the rice cake so they’re totally cooked, and then I’ll reintegrate them when I start similar everything in sauce. Okay. I think they can go

Malcolm Collins: in with [00:45:00] the chicken.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. When I put in the chicken. Yeah, I will do that.

Malcolm Collins: Or maybe like just after the chicken.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, that’s the plan. All right. I love you so much and thanks for you so much.

Horrifying

Speaker 5: me. Just when I think things can’t get any crazier, you blow my mind. So thanks for that. The world we’re in. So it goes,

Simone Collins: She’s so pretty.

Malcolm Collins: So for dinner tonight, are we doing the, the massive, because she’s about to give birth, right? And so she’ll be out for a while, and so she wants to make like all of my favorite dishes in mass so they can be frozen. So, and then easily

Simone Collins (2): preheat, like reheated. So I, I want Malcolm to still eat delicious homemade food, like mm-hmm.

The. What was it? Burmese chicken that I made. In this case I’m making Bullock Fire chicken, Korean fire chicken, but I just, I won’t have, I won’t have the bandwidth to prepare it, so we’re gonna make it ahead of time and it’s gonna be perfect. It’s gonna be great.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Except here’s actually [00:46:00] Malcolm’s trick to Bullock, which I think is very interesting.

He basically wants to eat it like pizza. Without any carbs. Because as much as he performatively is someone who has terrible health, he actually like, eats, like has an intermittent fasting, mostly keto diets. It’s so weird. This is

Malcolm Collins: pomegranate juice, by the way. Yeah, no, you’re like, you would, you would never admit it, but you actually like, but the bullock, it’s supposed to be eaten that way.

Bullock is not eaten with rice.

Simone Collins (2): It’s not even with rice. It has those Korean, like starchy rice chunks in it. But the way that Malcolm likes it is normally Bullock is like kind of layered, like in a, you know, a, a dish. Like it’s a little deep. You spoon into it or well not chopstick into it. But what Malcolm wants it to do is like, basically when I, when I prepare it, like just spread it out very thinly.

Like a, a pie dish or on a baking sheet, and then layer mozzarella cheese on top of it, like a pizza, which is, this is how it is traditionally, typically [00:47:00] does have a top layer of mozzarella cheese. And then he eats it like that, basically like a a, a crustless chicken and gochujang sauce like cheese pizza, which is really interesting.

And I get it, like it maximizes the sort of pizza flavor. Without the empty carbs. ‘cause honestly, yeah, I mean, I, I freaking love deep dish pizza Crest. I love the flakiness

Malcolm Collins: also like spicier and sweeter than a pizza.

Simone Collins (2): Oh yeah. And the carb, yeah. There is sugar in it.

Malcolm Collins: Honey. Honey. Or, or better because there’s less diversity in them.

Like with a pizza, you gotta get the crest just right and everything. It’s

Simone Collins (2): true. And who wants the crust even when they fill the crust with cheese in an attempt to redeem it, which I appreciate. It’s still just, it’s still crust. It’s still crust. But you know what, I actually appreciate that even Koreans kind of inherently and intuitively understand this because all of their pizzas are like, don’t worry, we’ve put hot dogs in the crust.

Don’t worry. We’ve put like their crusts are Korean, pizzas

Malcolm Collins: are disk. Disgusting. But

Simone Collins (2): in [00:48:00] theory and in the,

Malcolm Collins: in theory, they look amazing. Yeah. They

Simone Collins (2): look awesome. Like those little pointed like sausage infused cheese crusts. It, it, you’d think they’d be great. I never tried a pizza when we were in Seoul because you were like, they taste so terrible.

At least we had that

Malcolm Collins: well, no, you know how terrible they taste. Did you try one of those like hot dog or corn dog things in SEO that look really good? Yes. Okay. Pizza is like if you had that kind of bread and meat, but it was an entire pizza. You, you know, like when you taste it, you’re like, this is surprisingly disgusting.

Oh, like how it it, it, it is, it, it looks amazing. Yeah. Like you see it like their little glazed hot dog things. Yeah. They, they have

Simone Collins (2): like corn dogs. But the problem is, is they’re not corn dogs. They’re made what a, with what a, I could only guess is, is rice flour and it’s just utterly flavorless and textless.

Like just starchy, just, just stodgy. And then you have the hotdog inside, but it’s just like, this is, why would you wrap? I guess a hotdog button, [00:49:00] but it’s, it’s not, but it’s not soft. Feel like a hotdog button.

Malcolm Collins: Also fairly flavorless compared to like a normal hot dog.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, it just like the whole thing looks so freaking good and it was so disappointing.

And I’m obsessed with corn dogs. It’s like one of my top pregnancy cravings. And how do you butcher that? It’s

Malcolm Collins: gotta imagine being in Korea and not being able to get a good corn dog. Seriously, although they have great what, what do I wanna call ‘em? Like ettes, like buns and stuff. Oh,

Simone Collins (2): I know. Yeah. You just go to a, what, what’s that called?

I was gonna say, but No, it’s that, that French Parisian?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well it’s, it’s a French, they have it in the US too, and I think people think that they’re actually French, but they’re, they’re Korean.

Simone Collins (2): No, it’s Korean. What’s it? Damnit, what’s it called? A little life tower.

Malcolm Collins: It, the French connection or the French, I don’t know.

Something.

The place we were thinking of is Paris Baguette. And I’m always, you know, I, I look at these in American cities, like in Manhattan or San Francisco, and I’m like, I wonder how many people who go here realize that this is extremely Korean. All the food here is Korean, and this is a well-known Korean chain that just didn’t change its name [00:50:00] to something like Korean baguette when it moved to America.

Malcolm Collins: No, but it’s, oh, I love those.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. So at least they, yeah, no, they’re, they’re like, they can get it right. So I don’t know how they can get it so wrong with pizza and, and corn dogs. Well, or rice dog, whatever they call them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And if, if, if you’re not watching this, ‘cause I would’ve put some Korea pizzas on, on screen here.

Oh, thank you. You should Google Korean pizzas. ‘cause they’re, yeah, just no for

Simone Collins (2): real. Yeah. Yeah. They’re expensive too, though. They’re pricey.

Speaker 6: When, when die and I’m a dog, then I’m gonna take your whole world and get Oh, you mean you get all my stuff when I die? Yeah. Who told you about that? Nobody. I just figured out it. I just, you just figured it out yourself? Yeah. Wait, so then are you gonna try to kill me till you get my stuff?[00:51:00]

Okay. That makes sense. I’m, I’m done with that. You make me a grandpa and you get all my stuff. Okay. Deal, deal.

In this episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins dive deep into the latest research and real-world case studies on cash transfers and Universal Basic Income (UBI). They discuss why recent experiments and studies show that cash handouts and guaranteed income programs often fail to deliver the promised improvements in well-being, employment, and poverty reduction. Drawing on examples from Native American tribes, major UBI studies, and historical work programs like the Civilian Conservation Corps, they explore the complex relationship between income, work, and happiness. The conversation also touches on media coverage, policy implications, and the future of social programs in an AI-driven world.

Here Kelsey Piper’s essay in The Argument that we referenced for this episode:

Episode Transcript:

Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm. I’m so excited to be speaking with you today because we’re gonna talk about universal basic income and how even more. Experimentation and research on it has come to light showing that it does not meaningfully change policy outcomes like housing and stress.

It actually decreases working hours. And even though people still anecdotally say that it, oh, it’s so great, it doesn’t actually help them, and this that we’re gonna be covering is coming from someone who really wants. Universal basic income and cash handouts to work or cash transfers as as they would probably put it.

Yeah. So what we’re gonna do is get into this and try explore. So this is not for

Malcolm Collins: people who think this is not the Sam Altman study. We already did an episode on that one, this giant study that showed if you give people a thousand dollars a month, uh uh, over three years, at the end of it, they’re poorer than the people who got nothing.

Well, we have

Simone Collins: to just explore here and going beyond the, the information that we’re gonna go over in the article that shows in various different studies how it doesn’t work. We wanna explore the really key question [00:01:00] here of why do these cash transfers fail? But it’s super clear in the data that earning more correlates with better outcomes.

So that’s the other thing. Okay. Hold, before we get into that,

Malcolm Collins: I think it’s very important that we frame for people why this is an important conversation right now. Yeah. And why it is such an existential threat to humanity. Yes. Ubi, I an existential threat AI may replace a lot of people’s jobs. The last time we did a video on when will AI actually replace jobs, the head of one of our programming teams.

Bruno had been the one who sort of asked the question. He’s like, I don’t see people being let go because of ai. I don’t see things changing because of ai. Now, like three months later, the R Fab team is just me, him in ai because it has replaced all of those jobs. That is how quickly is you can go from saying, I have no idea how this is gonna, you know, actually replace workers or actually change the economy to like, just months later and like, oh, this is doing most of my work. Right. And I, I, I, [00:02:00] why this becomes so threatening is it’s like, well, how do you maintain an economy around that? And then you have to look at what happens to a population if it’s on UBI Intergenerationally.

Mm-hmm. Right? And you know, you have. Predictions. Like the predictions you get in wally. In Wally, they sort of show, I think an actually pretty accurate prediction of what could happen to humanity, if anything less gruesome.

Wally: Space now. We did that yesterday. I don’t want to do that. Well then what do you want to do? I don’t know. Something.

But over here. Hello.

Time for lunch. In a cup.

. Attention Axiom shoppers. Try blue. It’s the new red. Ooh. Ooh. Lovely.

Malcolm Collins: [00:03:00] So if we’re gonna go over some real life case studies here before we go into the data mm-hmm. You have the. Chen Band of Louisiana Indians in California, despite operating one of the largest, most profitable casinos in the US Chenga Resort Casino, generating over 1 billion annually and distributing substantial per capita payments up to $20,000 per member.

Monthly in peak years. Oh wow. Okay. The tribe reported a staggering 91% unemployment rate with the unemployed individuals often living below the poverty line. Wait, so they’re probably

Simone Collins: unemployed ‘cause they feel like their money is taken care of, but there was still in poverty.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, no, the money comes on Good years.

So they’re not getting this every year. And so they are living in just like existential property. For another example here you have the HoChunk Nation, Winnebago Tribe, Wisconsin and Nebraska. This tribe runs multiple casinos, HoChunk gaming and distributes per capita payments from revenues, historically 500 to [00:04:00] $1,000 monthly, varying by year.

Yet their unemployment rate is at around 82% in 2005. It fell though recently in 2022 it fell to 32%, but that’s still six x. The national average was poverty affecting around 30% of members. So I’m not gonna keep going over all of these because there are a number of, of, of examples like this, but it is and we’re probably gonna do a, a separate video just on what happens if you’re intergenerationally exposed to UBI and how much it just FAPs your culture of its potentiality.

Mm-hmm. How quickly high skilled jobs just disappear from communities that this happens to. Ooh. And what it would mean for the human species if we lived with this, but continue.

Simone Collins: Oh, that’s great. Yeah. So what we’re gonna do is go over the article and the argument that goes over all this research called Giving People Money, helped Less than I thought it would by Kelsey Piper.

And then we’re gonna talk about this, like, why is it that, you know, ‘cause you, you would think okay if, [00:05:00] you know, having more income. Leads to better outcomes. Why does giving people more income lead to worse outcomes? ‘Cause I think that’s a really key cultural question. So getting into the article, just give people money. It’s the simple brute force solution to so many problems. In low income countries, charities are sometimes measured against whether their interventions are better than simply giving people cash.

Even in high income countries like the US when disaster strikes often the best thing you can do is get money into the hands of affected people. Immediately. They know whether they should use it to buy gas, rent an Airbnb, fly to their cousin’s house. Or one stayed over. So it wasn’t that crazy to assume, particularly once promising pilots were released, that the same should be true for addressing chronic poverty in high income countries.

If you give a new mom a few hundred dollars a month, or a homeless man, $1,000 a month, that’s gotta show up in the debt, right? Alas, a few years back we got really serious about studying cash transfers and rigorous research began in cities all across America. Some programs targeted the homeless, some new [00:06:00] mothers and some families living beneath the poverty line.

The goal was to figure out whether sizable monthly payments help people lead better lives, get better educations and jobs, care for more of their children, and achieve better health outcomes. Many of the studies are still ongoing, but at this point, the results are uncertain. They’re pretty consistent and very weird.

Multiple large, high quality randomized studies are finding that guaranteed income transfers do not appear to produce sustained improvements in mental health, stress levels, physical health, child development outcomes, or employment treated Participants do work a little less. But shockingly, this doesn’t correspond with either low stress, lower stress levels, or higher overall reported life satisfaction.

So I’m gonna

Malcolm Collins: stop and, and pull out what’s being said here.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That when people are like, well. You know, if, if you just gave me more money or I just didn’t have to worry about money so much Exactly. I would be less stressed. Yeah. It’s the money. It’s

Simone Collins: always, it’s the money. It’s the money. I don’t have enough money,

Malcolm Collins: actually.

Untrue. If you earned more [00:07:00] money, you would be less stressed. Mm-hmm. Not if you were given more money.

Simone Collins: And this is really key and, and we’ll get into this at the end. Because, yeah, total, total highlight. All right. To continue homeless people, new mothers and low income Americans all over the country receive thousands of dollars, and it’s practically invisible in the data on so many important metrics.

These people are statistically indistinguishable from those who did not receive this aid. I cannot stress how shocking I find this, and I want to be clear. This is not, we got some weak counter evidence. These are careful, well conducted studies. They’re large enough to rule out even some more positive effects, and they’re.

All very similar. No, I wanna, I

Malcolm Collins: wanna stop again here. So the studies on UBI are particularly damning because most of them were done by people who were for UBI. Yes. And tried to frame the data as being as pro UBI as possible.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And that’s, so the a, a big issue with this is that many media outlets, if they cover these at all, they manipulate the results to only like very selectively say [00:08:00] that this was good because people don’t wanna hear this.

This is not pleasant news for anyone because everyone’s answer to Malcolm’s point is always, no, just gimme more money and then I’ll be okay. Mm-hmm. This is an amount of evidence that in almost any other context we’d consider definitive, and yet you’d be hard pressed to hear about it in the media quote.

Overall, the larger and more credible studies in this space have tended to find worse effects, and yet the press seems to prefer to cover the small pilots. That show positive impacts of a Vivat co-author of one recent open research study on guaranteed income in the US told me the war on poverty is the unfinished business of American liberalism.

No randomized control trial is really going to convince me that money does not improve people’s lives. But I do think cash as an intervention is best used in emergencies for pregnant women, domestic violence victims, or in other narrower contexts where a study is still on note. Did you just

Malcolm Collins: notice that she, she basically said only for women.

For the, the two examples she gave pregnant women and in her mind, likely domestic [00:09:00] violence women, she is saying only for women. And this is how women think. We want to take society’s money and, and use it to make women nuns to the state that

Simone Collins: well, yeah. I mean, that is, that is a whole nother can of worms.

She continues winning. The war on poverty will require more than just transfers. It will require building and improving institutions that provide education, healthcare, and housing. It’s harder this way, but in the words of John Meer keys, Keens, anything we can do, we can afford. The evidence. What do the basic income studies really show?

This is so interesting. First, some good news. Poor Americans do not fritter away cash on vice goods like drugs, alcohol, or gambling. And the best piece of news is that in qualitative interviews, when you ask people how they’re doing and what they did with the money, the recipients give very moving accounts.

The money brought comfort, security, hope and steps toward a better future, just like you’d expect. And this is so interesting because there’s this like. This collective delusion that money fixes things even when it doesn’t like you. You think it does? Yeah. So like if you [00:10:00] were to give me Malcolm just like a bunch of money and like meaningfully it does not make me happy or anything else, I’m still gonna be like, oh, it was so meaningful.

Yeah, definitely give me more money. That would

Malcolm Collins: be great. Well actually there’s a great way to think about this. So Simone. It’s very odd in the way that she relates to jewelry and clothing and shoes and everything. Really. You got this for me.

Simone Collins: I decided to wear it today ‘cause it made me so happy. But,

Malcolm Collins: I got that for you because you said like, I was like, what sort of jewelry early in our relationship do you want?

Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: you’re like, well, you know, I’ve always wanted like. Pearl necklace. I think that could look pretty classy, right? Hmm. And so I got her a few chains of pearl necklaces at like a pearl like discounter place where you can get them like in bulk or whatever. Yeah. And after that, you know, like the next girl I’ll be like, what do you want?

And she goes, well, you gave me what I wanted last year and then the next

Simone Collins: one, I have it now.

Malcolm Collins: Good. Yeah. She’s like, you gave me that two years ago. I don’t need, why would I need, like, I’ve got a ring, I’ve got a necklace, I’ve got earrings. I don’t need, why would I need more than one earring? Like I, I, I need one for each ear.

I don’t need, well, I did, I did lose,

Simone Collins: I did lose one of [00:11:00] the false diamond earrings that I really liked. Oh, the talking about one is the globe. No, it was it was just, it was like an Asher cut, fake, fake diamond earring stud. And it, I, I just, it’s somewhere around this house or one of our kids stole it after it fell on the ground.

Like,

Speaker 3: I miss

Simone Collins: it. I wanna, I could just use the ones that your mom left to us, that they’re also just like fake. So I, I don’t have to be scared wearing them around the house. But they’re so big that they kind of don’t work. They’re, they’re a little too, gosh,

Malcolm Collins: but the, the problem is, is the way that you relate to jewels is, well, I need a pair of shoes.

And like for like the three occasions. So you’ve got like boots, like nice shoes and like another pair of boots for wearing outside. But not, not anything more than that. And it’s the same with your outfits. Like how many of these outfits do you have? Like four.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Enough to be able to have something to wear when the inevitable urine or vomit.

That’s from our children. Like, oh yeah, they, they, I mean, you should see my apron now. It’s covered in like bread dough and [00:12:00] stuff. Waffle. But anyway, the point

Malcolm Collins: being

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: Is that you you, you, you, if you, I’m with what I have. I don’t need more. If I got you a bunch of stuff, jewels or an outfit, you would look at me and say.

Like this is just a burden at this point. Like this is just stressful at this point, right? Yeah. Where am I gonna put it all? And this is the, but. You would still act like especially if you’re a normal person, because I don’t think anyone else actually gets additional happiness from more shoes or more jewelry or more anything like that.

But they do get in the moment appreciation. Sure. Absolutely. The emotional maturity that you have to understand that actually their life has gotten worse because now they have more fancy stuff. They need to care for more liabilities.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: they feel bad about having this stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I mean, most of these studies are looking at people with much more limited means, and the good news, like she said, is they’re not spending this money on drugs and jewelry like they are actually spending on, on stuff they [00:13:00] need.

But even so it’s not meaningful to make them happy. So to continue what Kelsey Piper’s writing. But if you were hoping that monthly transfers of a few hundred to a thousand dollars could transform the war on poverty, then I think the results are fairly clear that this is, at this point, cash isn’t king.

The gold standard for guaranteed income experiment goes something like this. Researchers recruit a large population, thousands of people, often across multiple cities and split them into experimental and control groups. Sometimes a control group gets a smaller sum of money, 20 or $50 a month, rather than getting nothing.

Researchers arrange to protect. Other benefits so that no one loses eligibility for Medicaid, supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program or, or SNAP or other programs because losing eligibility for other benefits would make it much harder to usefully test the effects of cash. Well-designed studies typically preregister what they’ll study, so they can’t p hack their way into the results after the fact.

The team behind baby’s first years one study. Of a guaranteed income program for new mothers with an emphasis on the effects it would have on new mothers and child development. Gave their control group [00:14:00] $20 per month and their experimental group, $333 per month. They recruited low income mothers at the hospitals where they gave birth.

Running the study in Omaha, Nebraska, New York, new Orleans, and the Twin Cities. The experimental group had more money as you would expect, and worked a little less, but it’s probably good if mothers of young babies can cut back on hours slightly. They also spent slightly more money on stuff for their kids, but there was not much else.

The cash transfers did not improve maternal health outcomes or child health outcomes. They had no effects on stress, depression, body mass index, or how often children get. Sick or the children’s overall health, they did not improve mother’s self-reported relationship quality or measures of psychological distress.

There was no effect on child development. So basically like the kids now have more junk. There’s like more plastic stuff sitting around there, sitting around

Malcolm Collins: their house. That’s it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I was very surprised. We were all very surprised. Uc, Irvine, economist, Greg Duncan, one of the study authors told the New York Times, the money did not make a difference, but maybe it just takes a lot more cash.

Quote [00:15:00] $333. In a time of inflation, a historic pandemic that’s just not gonna go very far. End quote. Amy Castro, faculty director of the University of Pennsylvania Center for Guaranteed Income Research observed to me on some level, she has to be right as an area gets richer. People’s life outcomes get systematically better, but it matters quite a lot how much money it takes to see meaningful improvements.

Malcolm Collins: Which we would disagree with and the data would disagree with. Yeah. It’s as they get richer because they’re making their own money, not the money itself that is improving the area. Exactly. And as we have seen this study would go against the Sam Altman study. They should, that they had less money when they were given money.

And that was when they were given a lot more than the 300, you know, and I think

Simone Collins: that’s the problem is that when you get to a higher amount and she, she goes into a higher amount. Studies. So we’re gonna get into more higher amount studies, but I think once you get more and more, then you start to actually scale back your life in a very damaging way, kind of expecting that larger money, like three 30, $3, you’re not gonna meaningfully start to depend on that, you [00:16:00] know, especially in this time of inflation with a new baby.

But, yeah. So to continue the Compton, California RCT. Tried $500 per month for two years. They found no significant effects on the transfers, on labor supply, assets, psychological wellbeing, financial security, or food security. Like what else are you gonna care about? The biggest effect they found was on other income sources.

The groups receiving transfers worked fewer hours and got paid less than people in the control group. The lost non-transfer of income averaged $333 a month. That to me, like if I were reading that, I’d be like. Oh my God. I’ve just damaged these people’s lives. Like when they go off this doll, they’re less.

Set up like they’re, their, their recurring self-reliant income stream is damaged because of what I did with my study. Like, I can’t believe that people aren’t not just perturbed by their results, but embarrassed and concerned about the harm they’ve

Malcolm Collins: done of the harm that they’ve done. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And that they don’t accept that this is what’s happened. Yeah. And this is [00:17:00] how, you know, these results are so accurate. Yes. Because the very people running the study are like, it must have been an anomaly, you know? Well, and as Kelsey Piper puts it.

Simone Collins: In the article, she writes literally after that.

Now I think the working poor, having more free time is a good outcome. She, she, she’s not like putting two and two together that like.

Malcolm Collins: You are damaging these families. Yeah. And this is a problem with socialism, communism, everything like that more broadly mm-hmm. Is that the more that we you know, you take from, from productive individuals and give it to non-productive individuals through whatever means, the more you destroy the psychology and lives of those non-productive individual.

As I think any of us have seen of individuals once they start living on social security. I mean, this isn’t just in this, I have seen, this was in my own life. When somebody starts living on social security, they begin to basically descend into madness.

Simone Collins: Yeah, 100%. She continues, except the participants were asked to rate their own psycho psychological wellbeing and nothing changed.

Okay, [00:18:00] well it’s double it. The open research, unconditional income study tried. Thousand per month for three years, while the control group got $50 per month, they found that participants worked less, but nothing else improved. Not their health, not their sleep, not their jobs, not their education, and not even time spent with their children.

Yeah, they did experience a reduction in stress at the start of the study, but it quickly went away because of course it did. I was surprised at how little we found that looked great. Sarah Miller, one of the study authors told me, I want to pause for a moment and note how weird this is. Most studies on the relationship between income and wellbeing in the US find that increases in income predict increases in wellbeing.

This is the key crux that we need to discuss here, like from a policy standpoint. She continues research from the earned income tax expansion in 1993, found that the extra cash improved stress and material. Material Health Direct cash payments. Not making people better off is a surprising finding, and while baby’s first years in co compton are [00:19:00] relatively small sums of money, open research is larger.

None of the researchers I spoke with believe that giving people money actually makes them no better off. Okay, so also like none of these researchers, despite the evidence being presented to them. I’m

Malcolm Collins: willing to accept this. And I’d also point out that this is why, you know, if you are a white supremacist, you need to support reparations.

There is nothing you could do that would do more permanent damage to the American black community than reparations.

Simone Collins: No, but that’s, that’s worse. That’s not, that’s not even a, being a white supremacist, that’s, that’s being a, I want to hurt black people.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Yeah. No. All of these people who are pushing for this, it would just destroy these communities.

Destroy, destroy. We should

Simone Collins: call them like black extinction, because that’s what this would do. Yeah, this would, this would Native Americanize. Black population. Subject to this, to your point earlier, citing how, how income, and I point out, by the way, some

Malcolm Collins: native tribes have made this work, and we’ll talk about the ones that have made it work and the ones that haven’t.

The, the core difference for the ones that have made it work is they make the money conditional on things like education [00:20:00] and grades, et cetera.

Simone Collins: Nice. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: I can’t believe that more income is worse. Miller told me that would mean that recessions are good. We know their consumption went up. A lot of times that’s fundamental measure of wellbeing.

Ha ha, ha ha. But then what’s going on? I scoured these reports for answers. Where was the money going? People weren’t blowing it all on vices like gambling, tobacco or alcohol. It is generally proportionate to overall spending. So. Lots on housing and transportation, some on food and childcare. The Compton study found that people pay down their debt some.

There’s no obvious single pain point for these families. Maybe this isn’t as confusing as it initially feels. If you gave me an extra 10% of my income to spend, it would absolutely make me better off, just not necessarily in ways you could measure. I might give some to friends, going through a time of need, which makes my community stronger.

Even if it doesn’t show up in a study. Looking at my habits, I might take the kids across the country to visit my aging grandparents. Stressful but worth it in a way that probably doesn’t show up in mental health inventory. It’s very, oh my God,

Malcolm Collins: people looking [00:21:00] for their little, and then if you’ve studied this, are they doing more trips to grandma?

No, they’re not. You know, that’s the way it always is because he studies.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it’s very hard. But like Piper, we’ve met her. She’s a great person. She’s

Simone Collins: absolutely brilliant. And, and yeah, she’s. She can do no wrong in my, in my mind. I, I just. She, she’s a very empathetic person and it’s showing up in this quote, it’s very hard to evaluate something like cash end quote, Miller told me you might spend it on a new car and I might spend it on a vacation and someone else might spend it on their kids.

And when you average all that together, it’s hard to find anything. No study with this setup can demonstrate conclusively that money didn’t help someone, but they can and did demonstrate that giving low income people in this format does not advance other policy priorities. It will not at any detectable scale, make them measurably healthier or happier or give them better jobs or improve their children’s intellectual development.

‘cause we just kind of, all that matters, people certainly if it’s not. A big give everyone cash program researchers did point out to me that something much more narrowly targeted as a cash program that is currently underway is [00:22:00] pulling its weight than she, she continues to reduce section, the basic income coverup, death, death by a thousand to press releases.

These latest small to null results largely weren’t surprising to people who watched this issue closely. Many of them had realized years ago when the first studies came out that the effects of cash weren’t going to be transformative. While exciting big results from pilots tend to make headlines and travel quickly on social media, sobering results from RCTs generally don’t.

The depressing facts ever counted to you are largely missing, obscured and glossed over in public communications about these studies. Articles focused on tiny positives, or at best will note, well, the evidence sensor. The

Malcolm Collins: study that we pointed out in that episode, they framed it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: As a success for UBI.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It was massively misrepresented in the media. They were like, well,

Malcolm Collins: massively misrepresented

Simone Collins: people had more free time. Isn’t that great? Isn’t that nice? Wouldn’t you like that?

Malcolm Collins: No, but I, I think this is important for people to understand is that we don’t have [00:23:00] any other viable alternative right now, and that’s a whole separate episode for what we do when AI starts replacing us.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And if it, it looks like we’re going to have to wally ourselves, wize ourselves, if. This is the path we keep going on, and that’s, that’s, that’s really horrifying. Yeah. Because there, there aren’t you, you would need to create some sort of artificial hardship, but we’ll get to that later.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

She points to one example of this sort of medium misrepresentation. Perhaps the most eg egregious offender is the Denver Basic Income Project. The most bizarre set of findings I reviewed. This is what a prominent part of the report section on their website looks like. Year one research report results.

Groundbreaking findings. All payment groups showed significant improvements in housing outcomes, including a remarkable increase in home rent and ownership, and decrease in night spent. Unsheltered participants reported positive shifts in financial wellbeing with an increase in financial stability and a greater ability to pay bills and [00:24:00] reduced reliance on emergency assistance.

She adds, I guess I can’t tell this is a lie per se, but in reality they gave a thousand a month to homeless people and they were barely more likely than the control group to get housing. Oh my god. Time for some media criticism. It’s not just the researchers’ fault. Even when researchers don’t don’t understate or know.

Sorry, don’t understate a null or negative result. They told me that journalists are often less eager to go to press with it. Researchers have written a dozen null effect papers. They’re trying to get the result out there. Miller told me people aren’t interested in reading them, and that’s totally legit.

I get that one Research, one researcher said that the university press office seemed to lose interest in a press release about their paper. Once they learned it was a null result saying that publication could affect support for public assistance programs. There is clearly a motive here. The researcher was unimpressed.

The press release did eventually go out. It’s easy to say a bunch of true things yet leave your reader [00:25:00] less informed. And even if a study gets covered, there are several different ways to write the same take When covering babies’ first years, you can highlight the fact that mothers felt more confident about parenting, or you can show disappointing results on child development metrics.

In some ways, the way we identify promising anti-poverty programs is itself setting up us up for failure. Local governments, multiple researchers, told me will often only really get excited about a program if they’ve seen eye-popping results from a pilot program elsewhere. They want a silver bullet. Many of the people working on guaranteed income chafe at the fact that their programs can be criticized for not measuring up precisely because they conducted high quality studies in the first place.

When we look at every other anti-poverty regulation, we don’t test it at this level of rigor. Castro pointed out to me whole nother camera, which means most

Malcolm Collins: other anti-poverty regulations probably makes things worse as well.

Simone Collins: I know, right? She continues. It is true that it would have been impossible for me to write an article about whether high quality randomized studies found SNAP had benefits for food insecurity, even if I wanted to, because we didn’t do RCTs when [00:26:00] we introduced snap.

That’s the biggest food assistance program in the United States for those living abroad. Yep. The standards are higher for guaranteed income than they were for most anti-poverty measures when they were first introduced. But increasing rigor is a good thing. It can allow us to shift focus from programs that don’t seem to move the needle towards ones that do quote.

There’s many of cash options we should be looking at. End quote, Stasia West, director of the Center for Guaranteed Income Research told me the cash is large and then there are targeted life events among the many studies still underway. There are much more specific and targeted cash programs say aimed at pregnant women, people just leaving prison or those recovering from a major negative life shock that look promising.

If we hesitate to say what works and what doesn’t, money will be wasted on things that don’t work. Money that could have gone where it will make a big difference. I’m excited to see. Whether Big LEAPS findings, this is another study that cash can help victims of domestic violence is reproduced in upcoming work.

I’m excited to see the results of cash for pregnant women to improve pregnancy outcomes, cash for parolees to prevent recidivism and cash in [00:27:00] response to major shocks in life events. I hope some of these deliver on their early promise and help us advance the project of addressing poverty. But whatever the results are, we should not bury or exaggerate them.

We’re in a dangerous epistemic environment. One where widespread agreement on basic facts is scarce and no lies have permeated the halls of truth seeking organizations like the media, those of us who care about ending poverty, the media, this is how you

Malcolm Collins: can tell she’s a left wing person and she thinks the media the truth seeking organization.

Simone Collins: Well, I, I appreciate her acknowledgement as someone who’s left leaning as someone who has these tendencies

Malcolm Collins: with social programs, whether it’s SNAP or, or, or UBI or you know, anything that you do as a handout. It’s probably making the situation worse and we really haven’t done, when we have done studies, that’s what we find.

Absolutely. And then cases, we just haven’t done the study.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And she ends it with those of us who care about ending poverty, have to choose the integrity of our work over trying to play five D, five D chess and hoping no one else knows the rules.

Malcolm Collins: [00:28:00] So is she gonna become Trump? Is she gonna, is she gonna become maga?

We’re getting MAGA here. I mean, I don’t, I know, I actually think that there’s like a community in the EA world, like, and we’re just gonna be some of the first that it moved over. But I would not be surprised if by the next election cycle. A lot of people like her in a wider sort of intellectual counterculture movement, just mainstream moves, right.

Like, yeah. I mean,

Simone Collins: you already have that sort of heterodox center that really, really, really hates Trump. Like Jesse Single of blocked and reported and his own blog and own work is, is one of those people that like is super, super. So even somewhat Trump derangement syndrome, and yet he still represents someone who’s willing to question the orthodoxy.

There are lots of people like that. Maybe she’s kind of in that zone now. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and maybe once Trump is not the face of the Republican party and you get like a JD Vance, so it’s much harder for people in that crew. To be anti-me.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But, so there’s this, this question of why cash transfers fail, but earning more correlates with [00:29:00] better outcomes.

And, and one thing that you encouraged me to look at is the New Deal which was a set of US federal programs and reforms instituted in the 1930s in the United States, that that responded to the Great Depression. And they primarily did this. It was, it was a big program. So it was jobs, it was financial relief, it was new regulatory systems of millions of people.

Or involved with this. Although really and recovery didn’t go all the way until World War ii, but there were some programs within the New Deal which long term studies have shown were very impactful. So specifically there was this one youth employment program, the largest employment program, youth program, employment program of its time, the Civilian Conservation Corps.

The ccc. Yeah. Which saw sustainably improved outcomes, including higher. Lifetime earnings, better health and lower disability rates. Which is huge. ‘cause here’s this program that existed in the US that provided employment to youth that lasted, didn’t force them to work well. Yeah. But after, after, no, it [00:30:00] didn’t force ‘em to work.

After it ended, it had sustained impact. So lifetime earnings, no

Malcolm Collins: wait. It didn’t force him to work.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It wasn’t forced work. It was, it was a job opportunity for you. No, that’s what I mean. You have to work for the money. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. You can’t, you don’t get the money if you don’t work. Yes. But it wasn’t like a, it wasn’t like a labor camp.

No, it wasn’t a gula. The point is,

Malcolm Collins: is that if you give money to people for no work, you make their lives worse.

Simone Collins: Yes. So just, I just wanna go over the findings for this ‘cause they were so shocking to me. Lifetime earnings were five to 10% higher than those for similar peers who did not participate.

Those with longer CCC service experienced improved height. Health status and longevity, and they lived about a year longer. On average, they had lower stress and disability. With, with CCC alumni claiming disability benefits 0.4 years later in life. They had 10% lower rates of social security disability insurance claims, which is huge for the government.

Like, talk about ROI. They had higher geographic mobility and educational [00:31:00] attainment among those exposed to work relief and childhood and their midlife income and cognition. Were, were much better than those who. Did not participate in these programs. So their health was like, in terms of all the things Kelsey Piper was looking for, right.

She’s like, is there psychological wellbeing better? Is there earning better? Is there education better? Like the, you know, policy outcomes as she put them in her article.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: The CCC did that. Why are people not looking at that? Why are people not looking at putting people to work? Why is this just give people money?

‘cause they don’t,

Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s antithetical to their world perspective. They do not want to work.

Simone Collins: So I will point out just one, one little caveat that I, I I, I tried to find evidence of other work programs like in India, in other countries, in Europe, et cetera, China where that, that had such lasting impacts as the civilian conservation corps.

Many of them are more, were more, more targeted, like, oh, this is for vulnerable people. It’s only for this little period of time. Pretty much all of them had. The kinds of [00:32:00] of outcomes that she had hoped for during the treatment periods of the studies that she looked at. So like lower stress, better financial security, better feelings of empowerment, et cetera.

Like it actually created the effect she’s looking for, but it ended with those programs. So there’s something special about the CCC. I don’t know if it was because it was targeted at youth or because it was more broad or because it was, you know, I’m, I’m not sure it could, it could have even been the nature of the work.

A lot of this was like. I, I remember walking on trails, like hiking trails as a kid that people were like, oh yeah, this was built by the civilian Conservation Corps. So like, it, it was a really big cool, like infrastructure project, but also involved a lot of physical work. Maybe that was good for people.

I’m not really sure if it’s like the nature of the work that’s given that can also have an effect on whether this, this lasts longer. But yeah, I, I just find this really interesting. Maybe one way to do a controlled research on this is to look at people who served in the military and their outcomes.

Yeah. Because that’s government payments that you get only in return for work. [00:33:00] Right. So what

Malcolm Collins: happened

Simone Collins: with the military? I haven’t, I haven’t looked at that. If people who went into the military,

Malcolm Collins: well, what we need is to conscript the poor, force them to work out, you know, get a, that’s how they get their, their money.

Simone Collins: I mean, south Koreans have mandatory conscription. Israelis have mandatory conscription.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You, you see, mandatory conscription in a lot of you know, well,

Simone Collins: yeah. Like successful, industrialized, influential, innovative countries.

Malcolm Collins: I think it matters a lot less now that we have ai, AI’s gonna totally change warfare.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, but I mean, military doesn’t have to mean. Fighting, it can mean engaging in IT or health or cybersecurity. I mean, even now the US is shifting its use of military from like foreign policy stuff or like foreign conflicts too. You know, hey, maybe we can maintain order in Chicago, California and Washington, dc it’s like more local stuff.

This, this, this could military service in the future could mean things like maintaining public parks, fixing up crumbling infrastructure, which [00:34:00] we’re going to need. I mean considering, you know, the, the small towns initiative or whatever they’re called that’s trying in the United States. Yeah. To raise awareness about the fact that many cities and towns that have been built in the United States were built on somewhat shoddy infrastructure that was funded by the property developers and now has to be paid for by the municipalities that set up around them who have no tax base to afford it.

You know, it, it could be that in the future, a big saving grace if the government gets its policy gears in order. Isn’t UBI but rather employing people and, and giving them jobs, but also helping to maintain the infrastructure that is inevitably going to crumble as we lose the tax base to support it.

But I also am not exactly sure how we’re gonna pay for that. But tell, tell me about the cases in which tribes in the United States indigenous tribes in the United States. We, we’ll go

Malcolm Collins: into that in a separate episode.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. We’re not, we’re not going take it here.

Malcolm Collins: No.

Simone Collins: But yeah, I guess you’re saying it’s ‘cause they, they worked there or they had to do stuff for it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. They, they have to do stuff for it. You cannot give people giving, like, it [00:35:00] psychologically destroys people reparations money for free Look.

Simone Collins: When you look at mental health, right? And one of the biggest things is like within workplace, Jo, like jobs. Mm-hmm. What are the jobs where people are really stressed out and miserable or they have really poor mental health, and what are the jobs where people are in a really good position when you feel like you don’t have control or you don’t have ownership of your work, your mental health is really crappy.

And then when you do feel like you’re in control and, and your, your, your life is not subject to the vicissitudes of some system or some manager. Your mental health is way better.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And I, I think this is one of those, and so many of our episodes just turn to like external locus of control. You know what would be

Malcolm Collins: a very interesting study in this area?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Is to apply a multiplier to somebody’s Uber earnings give somebody cash handouts, and then have a control group and see if the Uber earnings groups. Sees a, a positive,

Simone Collins: so like turn, turn gig work into more of a living [00:36:00] wage thing. Yeah. And see if that gig work produces Oh, that would, yeah, that would be interesting.

Yeah. Anything where people have to work for something. Even if it’s just like. Picking up trash in a park or something.

Malcolm Collins: Love you. Did Simonon. Have a spectacular day. And you know, we work for you guys to give us money, please. You got our Patreon here. We got our and Substack.

Simone Collins: For those who hate Stack, Patreon is

Malcolm Collins: shut down as well.

You know, let’s see. They, by the way, Patreon and Substack have the exact same benefits. It’s just two different play play,

Simone Collins: and the benefits include, I mean, we’re gonna keep it up. I, I’m pretty sure so far we haven’t, we’re on an unbroken streak one weekend episode every day, so, sorry. Two weekend episodes.

You get a Saturday episode and a Sunday episode. So if you wanna upgrade from, we’re

Malcolm Collins: producing an episode every day of the week now. Yeah. If you wanna go from

Simone Collins: five days a week to seven days a week of base camp, you can.

Malcolm Collins: The weekend episodes are often stuff that I don’t think will do well on the main channel because they’re too No, but

Simone Collins: it’s stuff that people ask

Malcolm Collins: for.

Yeah. They’re, they’re stuff that people ask for, but they’re often like. [00:37:00] How do you vibe code, you know, something like that. Like this isn’t a channel on how to do that, but, or like

Simone Collins: more personal stuff. This, this most recent one we ran was on our Debauched health regimes, which include functional disorders, you know, medicated

Malcolm Collins: whatever.

So, Simone if, if I was gonna sum this episode up, would you say to people work makes one free work will set you free. Sorry. Do you know you know what that’s from?

Simone Collins: Yes,

Malcolm Collins: they were wrong. I, I mean, in that context it was a lie. Yes. That was a lie. So for people who don’t know, that was yeah, I mean it there, the sign should

Simone Collins: have been incinerator will set you free, but like.

Malcolm Collins: The general premise. Yeah, no that, that, that was on the concentration camps in, in Nazi Germany. That was, yeah, that

Simone Collins: was a sign on Auschwitz specifically.

Malcolm Collins: Auschwitz specifically. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I, I can just imagine some like nice German architect being told that like, oh, this is a work camp, you know, we’re, we’re trying to, you know, we need to build stuff for [00:38:00] the war effort, you know, can you help us out here?

And they’re like, you know what? I think a really inspirational message for people coming in to help the German war effort. Oh

Malcolm Collins: my God. That their, that generation’s version of like the cat. On like the string, like hang in there or something? Yeah, like at the Auschwitz it’s just like, hang in there, hang in there buddy.

Simone Collins: Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: That, that’s at the progressive Auschwitz, which still set up. I’ll put it in the South Park scene here, EV eventually, you know, we all know that we’re gonna be living through this if we keep up with the wrong thing.

Speaker: Malcolm. Welcome to Tolerance Camp. You are here because you refuse to accept the life’s choices of your fellow man. Well, those days are now over here. You will work every hour of every day until you submit to being tolerant of everybody

today we’ll be using the finger paint. You will make a painting that shows people of different races and sexual orientations getting along. Finger paint. Finger paint.

What are you finger painting.

Speaker 2: Uh, a [00:39:00] bear.

Speaker: I bear, old bear has nothing to do with extending people of different races. I, I didn’t know what else to beat. Sta you will finger paint what we tell you. Go faster, faster, faster, faster. Are you done? What is it? What have you done?

Speaker 2: People of all colors holding hands beneath a rainbow.

Speaker: Good.

Speaker 4: We are making the prisoners make macaroni pictures that illustrate diversity in the workplace.

Speaker: Excellent.

Simone Collins: Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you. Oh, the

Simone Collins: one where they, they drew pictures or something?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. God. Alright. Okay. So Simone, for the next episode I had an alternate one we can do. Oh, okay. I think might do better. Which is on how mixing races became racist.

Simone Collins: Oh, like mixed race marriages?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Okay, sure. Yeah, I have the other one ready to go.

Malcolm Collins: So the comments on [00:40:00] today’s episode, they enjoyed

Simone Collins: it.

Malcolm Collins: They enjoyed it. It was on

Simone Collins: what surprised me was the, what was, what was it on

Malcolm Collins: you? Do this part, explain. Oh.

Simone Collins: So today, the episode that we ran today as we’re recording, was on Jimmy Kimmel. What surprised me the most was the number of people who were like.

No, y’all are wrong about Sandy Hook. That was a false flag attack. And I wait. Then we have an

Malcolm Collins: audience that believe Sandy Hook with a false flag attack. Well,

Simone Collins: at least three people that I saw. So

Malcolm Collins: this is okay no, the, the Jimmy Kimmel thing, I mean, we could maybe do a deep dive into whether Sandy Hook was a false flag attack that that could be a fun episode one day.

Note, , we will not be doing this episode because I spent some time looking into it and the evidence that it is a false flag attack is so. Laughably bad that there isn’t really much to go into. It’s stuff like just not understanding human like. They’ll be like, oh, somebody was laughing when they were having an emotional breakdown because their child was recently killed.

It’s like, [00:41:00] yeah, that’s normal human behavior to be completely emotionally unhinged when your kids are killed. Like I don’t. , Yeah, I, I, I think it just shows most of the info where it’s like, oh, , this showed that there were no deaths of this type in this region at this time. And it’s like, yeah, but here’s where the form was actually filed, and you can just trace the paper trail and see that the deaths were recorded here.

, And so it’s, it’s just like over and over again, stuff like that. Or like, oh, , this website’s timestamp shows this. And it’s like, well, that was improperly captured. You can look right here. It, it’s very easy to find sort of mistakes in terms of research and not deeper sort of, because there are some areas where I dive into conspiracy theories.

You can look at any of my conspiracy theory videos, , where , I’m willing to consider a conspiracy theories, , if I think that they’re interesting, and this would’ve been an interesting one of it. It had any, , sort of weight to it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Someone else suggested an episode that I thought would be fun, which is on what we think the future of organized crime is going to be.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, very interesting. Yeah. Yeah, [00:42:00] very

Simone Collins: interesting indeed. So that was a, they’re already seeing like sort like, you know,

Malcolm Collins: like 10,000 songs a day on like Spotify or whatever.

Like, can you spam organize crime with AI because there’s gonna be crime ai.

Simone Collins: Oh, AI based crime? No, they’re already doing that. That’s already happening with spoofed calls. So, you know, they used to have these. Like honeypot based, and they still do like people who are basically in slavery conditions doing these honeypot calls, but I think a lot of that’s just gonna be AI based in the future.

But yeah, it’s my grandma

Malcolm Collins: was robbed by ai. It’s also her AI lover.

Simone Collins: Her

Malcolm Collins: AI

Simone Collins: her,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. So the that, that’s interesting. The other thing because I’ve actually been thinking more about the Jimmy Kibble thing, and it’s just so weird.

And it’s even wilder that they gave him his job back, given that, as we pointed out on that episode, his ratings were well below most other late night shows when they were canceled. , And he himself admitted that he was planning to not be renewed that year. So, and, and the thing that that [00:43:00] got him fired wasn’t even lying on air.

It was refusing to apologize for it, and he’s still refusing to apologize for it. And when I go on Left Wing Forbes to just find out how they’re justifying this themselves. The way that they’re justifying it is by saying, well, he said that the right is using this for political purposes. And I’m like, no, he said that the shooter was right wing.

That’s very different claim. He’s lying and he won’t even apologize for lying about somebody who is just shot again. I see very little difference between what he did and, , Alex Jones was Sandy Hook.

And I will note that his goal is exactly the same as what Alex Jones’ goal was, which was to prevent a public conversation that an event would otherwise trigger. In Alex Jones’ case, it was around shootings in, , in this case it was around, , somebody being killed for free speech. , And he doesn’t want that conversation to happen or his audience to have questions around that conversation.

, Note here, for the people will be like, the one way that what Alex Jones did was worse [00:44:00] is that he targeted. Families, , in the way he told the lie. And what the way, what Jimmy Kimmel did was worse is he didn’t even give an explanation as to why he was lying. Like at least Alex Jones was like, here is why I think this.

He was just like, this factual inaccuracy is a truth, except it because I told you so.

Malcolm Collins: There is any freak out about it at all that like. A a somebody who a core part of their job is newscasting for a private company.

Simone Collins: Well, okay. A lot of all people also pointed out in the comments, many, many people. This guy is not a newscaster. He’s a comedian.

Malcolm Collins: He is a newscaster. Simone, I’m sorry. Well, they disagree. The vast majority of people. So if you look at, you know, whether it’s John Stewart or Stephen Colbert or his show mm-hmm.

I would argue that if you’re talking about his average viewer, he is the primary source of news for them.

Simone Collins: That’s the thing is that. The both can be true. And, and now what’s seen is like the primary [00:45:00] source of news for a lot of people is like online commentators who primarily are also comedians and entertainers.

And there there’s, there’s, yeah. Why would, you know, I used to get most of my news from like the Daily show and, and shows like that. No, but this is just thing

Malcolm Collins: as well. Why would you intentionally, other than just because you’re trying to be old timey or whatever, make the news boring. Like you have a choice in how you, how you relate information to people.

You can either resist telling jokes when opportunities arise or make it funny and engaging. Yeah. The fact that you are not an idiot about how you deliver. Educational content to people IE you make it entertaining. Doesn’t make you, not an educator, doesn’t make you not an, an anchor. Mm-hmm. Which is, but the point I’m making here is, is that’s his core job, is telling people what’s true and what’s not true.

And he lies and he works for a private company and the private company. Decides to fire him while he also has desperately low ratings, ratings that are, as we pointed out in the [00:46:00] episode, much lower than the ratings that most of the other shows that are equivalent to his mm-hmm. Were canceled under.

And he himself said he expected the show to not be renewed. Like, it’s just like, why, why have a freak out about this? Like, what’s the. Why would it, they’re like, oh, Disney should have gone to bat for him. It’s like Disney is probably losing money on his show, like on an episode per episode basis at this point, if you look at the numbers.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

And given that his show was put back on, it’s almost like what we’re being shown is you cannot be fired if you’re progressive enough from some companies, no matter how badly you perform, if you support the narrative, you get to stay.

Malcolm Collins: So why would they like this? There’s this weird world that people are living in where they, they think that basically, I, I mean the an, the answer is obvious. They think if you are progressive, you have a, a duty to lie. As an information person because we can, yeah. And a lot of

Simone Collins: people commented on that as well.

They were talking about how there’s this [00:47:00] belief that you have to lie as, as part of the greater good or something like that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh, and this is why when everyone is like the tower, the nice race in War Warcraft, I’m like, no, the tower, like the most evil race. Well, maybe not the most evil.

There’s some pretty evil races, but but was that you

Simone Collins: who referenced them in the comments or did someone else, because I, I was like, who are the Tao? I don’t know how to respond to this.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway did, did somebody say that in the comments? Yes. Someone

Simone Collins: referred to the Tao. So, I get it. This is,

Malcolm Collins: well, if you’re talking about the greater good, you’re gonna get people referencing the talamon.

Come on.

Simone Collins: Well, sorry, I’m not read in at all, but,

Malcolm Collins: all right. No, the, the point I was making is I, I began to realize. That they sort of have a duty to not pop the pop the bubble, pop their like information sphere where everything is good and their site only does good. And there really isn’t an interest in what’s true at all.

And if anything, if he had told the truth, that would’ve been a greater violation then the way that he handled the, the information. Right. Well, a

Simone Collins: lot of people also wanted to point out, because [00:48:00] we didn’t know this at the time of recording, that the, he, he was suspended. Or slash fired? Not specifically, you know, only for, for having misrepresented reality and said that Tyler Robinson was maga, but because he was asked by a, B, C to publicly apologize for that misrepresentation and he refused to, and then that is when.

He was fired. That’s a very

Malcolm Collins: good reason to be pulled.

Simone Collins: A lot of people chimed in to say that. My argument is there’s just absolutely no reason why he would ever do that, because he already knew he was gonna be canceled. He knows he needs to line up a new audience, and that new audience is only going to be his ultra progressive base, which is all that’s left for him now.

Mm-hmm. And if he were to backpedal on that, he would alienate the only source of income he has coming in the future. So of course he didn’t do it. Would be crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, some of these people they’ve gone, I can’t remember, I wanna say like Hall something Hall or, or something. Arsenio Hall or something.

I can’t remember. There [00:49:00] was some black late night show hosts, like I had heard about.

So I tried to find it because a few fell into this category. , Arsenio Hall, dl Hu Lee and Travis Smiley. , But I can’t find the exact channel. I seem to remember it was Arsenio Hall, but now I can’t find his channel. But if you go to something like the Travis Smiley channel, they’ll be getting like, you know, 2.7 7.6 K views per video.

Malcolm Collins: And I’ll try to find his, his thing again. And he started a YouTube and he gets like around what we get per video. Which I was really shocked of. So, you know, oh yeah. Channel that audience may not be able unlock as you think, Simone.

Speaker 3: Oh, well,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, of course we’re growing regularly. Like we’re probably twice as big as we were this time last year. Three times as big.

Simone Collins: Hmm. And people are helping us. One person commented that they gave us all their hype points, which is something that YouTube is now releasing to help viewers help new channels that they think.

Oh, that’s really sweet. That was really nice of them. So thank you. So anyway, let’s get into it though. We have a lot to cover. [00:50:00] You ready? Yeah. Is that it?

Malcolm Collins: You’re leading this one, right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Okay, so you’re ready? I can start.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you can start. Perfect.

Simone Collins: Good.

Speaker 5: Okay. Where do you want me to put this? Um, on YouTube. What about you, Titan? YouTube. Okay. And what are you doing? So I just made this orange, but how did you do that? That’s impossible. Um, I just got, I’m about five steps of red and five steps of, um, uh, yellow. Wait. Are you, give you a closeup. Are you, are you like a Yeah.

Get the phone close. Okay. Look at this. Are you like a science guy? Yeah. Look at that. Wow. Are you dog? I like climb is so cool. What about you, Titan? Titan? Are you a superhero? Yeah. Yeah. Are you gonna save the world? Yeah. [00:51:00] Yeah, yeah. What’s up? Making Coach is making my superhero. Oh, he’s making a superhero. T are you making a superhero?

No, I know. I’m making something else. What? What are making? I’m gonna make,

make, wait. This looks so cool. Oh my.

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone dive deep into a fascinating NBC study that explores the stark differences in values, priorities, and life choices among Americans based on political affiliation and gender. They discuss why fertility rates are diverging so dramatically between groups, what men and women who voted for Trump or Harris value most in life, the impact of career, financial independence, and family on personal fulfillment, how cultural and generational shifts are shaping the future of America, the role of marriage, debt, and emotional stability in modern society, and surprising insights from pop culture and personal anecdotes. Listen in for a thought-provoking conversation about the future of the country, the challenges of demographic change, and what it means to live a successful life today. Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more in-depth discussions!

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today.

Today we are going to be discussing. A, a fascinating study that came out from NBC that was looking at what was important to men who voted for Trump versus Kamala Harris, and women who voted for Trump versus Kamala Harris. And what you can see is. People who vote for Kamala Harris are not gonna play a big role in our country’s future.

No. They’re basically deleting themselves from the population because while there had been differences in the past in fertility rates within these groups, it is exploding. So I wanna talk about these preferences. I wanna talk about why they’re different. And to give you an idea of how different they are.

Men who voted for Trump when they were ranking like important for their definition of like success. Literally the top thing. The number one thing was having children.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Women who voted for Harris. Literally the last thing of importance to them was [00:01:00] having children. Which only, yeah, only

Simone Collins: only 6% of

Malcolm Collins: women voted for Harris, which by the way, tied with being married.

Yeah. And not a lot of interest. People retire early, so like financial stability is the other thing they don’t care about. My God. So thoughts on like the, the, that, that number before we go further so that, because a lot of the numbers that I’ve looked at before show like Democrat and Republicans being like 78% to like a hundred percent different in terms of fertility rates, but this would suggest that it’s dramatically higher than that for this next generation.

Simone Collins: Yeah, this doesn’t look good. I, I’m used to seeing much more moderated results from surveys like these, you know, like, oh, they’re, they’re meaningfully different, but this is violently different.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And I think it’s

Malcolm Collins: because these two groups are becoming more violently different from each other.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: absolutely.

In terms of values.

Simone Collins: Absolutely. It is also sobering to me, however, just how low priority having children is for [00:02:00] anyone. That it’s

Malcolm Collins: literally the top priority for men who voted for Trump.

Simone Collins: Yes. Except everyone else, it, it’s not at the top. Yeah. So let’s, let’s talk about

Malcolm Collins: this. Let’s

Simone Collins: talk about women who vote Trump, women who voted for Trump.

It’s right in the middle of the list of, of things presented, although 26% still want to have children. But that’s Malcolm. That’s 26%. That’s a quarter. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s only 26% of voting Who voted for Trump? And

Simone Collins: then keep in mind, so, so men, oh men who voted for Trump, who really value having kids. Sorry, 34% value.

That’s a third Malcolm. All like, yeah, no. Yeah. They, sure. Of, of the, of the population polled, but this is if only a third of men,

Malcolm Collins: so women who voted for Trump. Like what did women who vote for Trump care about more than having kids, right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The top thing for them, and this was more important than them, than having kids with, for many who voted for Trump, was financial independence.

Mm-hmm. Which yeah. And

Simone Collins: second is having a fulfilling job career, which is also fulfilling Job. Career is [00:03:00] number one for women who voted for Harris. It’s actually, no, it’s also

Malcolm Collins: true for men who voted for Harris. So the funny thing, yeah. About the women who voted for Trump, who, you know, care about money and career, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is the way that they framed it in terms of what they picked was financial independence. Then for both the men and the women who voted for Harris, it wasn’t that they wanted financial independence, it’s that they wanted enough money to do the things they wanted and to have a fulfilling job or basically enjoy their day job.

Well, I think fertility is, they wanted to have fun and have money, but they didn’t care about independence.

Simone Collins: Fertility is inversely correlated to the extent to which you. Opt in to an atomized capitalist to society where you buy everything you want. So if, if you opt into a community-based society or a family-based society where the vast majority of the goods and services that you value and enjoy and past times involve or, or, or we’ll say endogenous, they come from within your family or community unit, you’re gonna have kids.

But the more you lean into, I [00:04:00] will buy every single thing. Individually, I’m going to buy all my food. I’m not gonna make it home. I’m not gonna get it from my family. I’m gonna buy all my entertainment. It’s not gonna come from within my home or from my kids or from my spouse. I’m gonna pay for stuff that makes me entertained.

That will make you less and less fertile. And I think that’s why the focus is on getting this job and career because they’re, they’re opting into the very dynamic that caused the beginning of demographic collapse to begin with, which was industrialization, which was leaving the home. Going out and working and trading money for anything that you want instead of getting it from within your own family unit.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, I think that’s right. To go over like what men who voted for, well, actually let’s look at what women who voted for Hearst, what do they actually value? Because I think that helped us, like mm-hmm. Key into this, and we’ll, we’ll go through the chart and we’ll contrast it with some of the others.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Number one, and this was true for men who voted for Harris, so they’re actually pretty aligned. The men and women who vote for Harris their top three [00:05:00] are the same. No, not

Simone Collins: top three, only top two.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, the, the third one is almost the same. No. Yeah.

Simone Collins: So for women, number one, fulfilling job, career.

Number two, having money to do things you want, that’s the same for men. But then women’s number three priority and God help them ‘cause it’s never gonna happen is having emotional stability. No,

Malcolm Collins: but what’s funnier if you look at the charts, and we often go over this on our show, is that there is no demographic that is more emotionally unstable than progressive women.

Both

Simone Collins: Well, and you know, I’ll point out. That emotional stability is near or at the bottom of the list for men and women who voted for Trump. Yeah, and I think this just goes to show how mental health and specifically poor mental health

Malcolm Collins: is a just, it’s, it’s a. It’s downstream of obsessing about mental health.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. And, and, and it’s pervasive within progressive culture. And they’re aware of it and they’re like, I wish I had this. And they don’t. And I do think also that there’s a big correlation between having poor mental health and [00:06:00] not having a family and religion and strong hard culture that that gives you something more important to worry about than your stupid whims.

‘cause we all have demons. We all have demons. There’s no space for my demon because we have kids, right? Like, but I had, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It burns the selfishness out of you as one of the other moms say Yes.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: No, I, I completely agree with that, but I think that this is something that we used to intuit as a society much more easily.

Mm. A lot of progressives, they don’t have conservative friends. They don’t watch conservative influencers. No. So they are unaware of the within conservative spaces, the, the significantly higher degree of emotional stability that’s expected. But when we look into the past, even with like recent models of conservatives, like say ron Swanson.

Speaker: I’ve been developing the Swanson Pyramid of greatness for years. It’s a perfectly calibrated recipe for maximum personal achievement. Categories include capitalism, God’s way of determining who is smart and who is poor., Property [00:07:00] rights, fish for sport only, not for meat. Fish meat is practically a vegetable. Haircuts. There are three acceptable haircuts, high and tight. Crew. Cut, buzz cut.

Speaker 2: Feel no sympathy.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Ron Swanson may be incorrect about things in a conservative like way but he, he is, he is nothing if not emotionally stable most of the time other than when he is dealing with his exes. When he is dealing with ex women, he becomes emotionally, which I love. He’s logical

Simone Collins: in his attempt to resist, to resist them.

Malcolm Collins: But generally speaking, he is like, when contrasted with the progressive coated boss character who’s like all into yoga and all into like eating healthy and is a vegan he’s, he’s constantly shown as being like the, the epitome of emotional stability,

Simone Collins: right.

Malcolm Collins: Because he knows what he’s about, as he would say.

Yeah. And knowing what you’re about I think is [00:08:00] really the key to emotional stability. That, and not living for your own whims, which is, you know, like having some higher objective function. You’re attempting to maximize above self validation and personal pleasure. Well, and I think

Simone Collins: there’s also something to the fact that Ron Swanson in comparison to other more progressive coded characters on the show, parks and Rec.

Wants things that are easily attainable. He wants independence, privacy, family.

Malcolm Collins: Well, he, he, he, the government apart what he wants becomes increasingly less attainable as technology develops throughout the show. This is fair and true.

Speaker 5: , Go to Google Earth and type in your address.

Malcolm Collins: but when he shoots down the drone

Speaker: We need to talk. What is that? This is a flying robot. I just shot out of the sky after it delivered a package to my house.

So I destroyed the [00:09:00] robot. No one is safe from these b******s.

Malcolm Collins: because it knows too much information about him you know, yeah.

He’s increasingly annoyed that he can’t have his as many viewers of our show would want more independence. Right. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I mean, our, our audience can definitely relate. But, but I would con contrast that to the other characters in the show who want things that they, they don’t, well, they don’t know what they want first and foremost.

Or they want things that are not real. They’re too ephemeral. And they’re pursuing them in all the wrong ways. So, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And then you have so, so the first ones, which I love because we talked about this, is they’re all about. Personal hedonism. Like when I say that the urban monoculture is just about hedonism, maxing you see that was in this context, right?

You know, the, the, the, the fulfilling job or career. When you hear that, that means a job that makes me feel good to do, right? Mm-hmm. It is about pleasure, right? And the having money to do the things that you want. Contrast. This is what many who voted for Trump want, which is to contribute to society, right?

Having children, financial independence, not having the money to [00:10:00] do what you want, but having financial independence, eg. Not being a burden, which is what women who voted for Trump want the most. Then fulfilling job and career then being married then having money to do the things that they want.

Then owning a home. Then being grounded spiritually, then making family community proud, then having no debt, then using talents and resources to help others. Finally, like second to last is being able to retire early with conservative men, which I think is interesting. I also think it’s interesting that women who voted for Trump, the very last thing they wanted was to be able to retire early.

So you see this across Trump voters is wanting to retire early, as seen as a bad thing. And I think that you actually, you actually see this across the board now I look at it. It’s more pronounced as Trump voters, but it’s also pretty clear with men and women who voted for, for Harris. One thing that I found, I think that’s

Simone Collins: because people, and we saw this when we went to that college campus to speak with students.

Younger generations have acknowledged the fact that there is not going to be such a thing as retirement anymore. So it’s just, it’s one of those things of like, you know, becoming [00:11:00] unicorn. That’s weird. I’m gonna put it at the bottom of my, of my list because it could never happen. Like, I’m not gonna want it because it’s not going to happen.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, I will say I do find it disappointing that women who voted for Trump have being married at, at forced to bottom in terms of the things that they’re looking for is only 20%. Seeing that as important to life success. Yeah. Which is interesting because I was raised to just obviously thinking I had to get married.

How did you think about it back when you were a progressive? If you’re reflecting on your own values, where did marriage fit for you in terms of a life plan and how you thought about

Simone Collins: it? I was, I was never gonna get married, obviously. I was never gonna get married. I was like,

Malcolm Collins: why? Surely you must have used about getting married at one point.

I know you had your stuffed animals get married.

Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘cause it was a celebration that was aesthetically interesting. That was it. There was nothing more to it.

Malcolm Collins: That was really it. Weddings.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, you, this was before the age when people had tiered cakes just [00:12:00] for birthday parties. I thought, you know, a wedding was the only one where you could do that.

A tiered cake at any other event was stolen valor. So, and I love to tiered cakes, so that is 100% it. I, I don’t, I, I think I, I, my first intuition when seeing how low, relatively speaking, being married was for female Trump. Voters was because being married is even lower than having children. Kind of a, an acknowledgement that many men are unwilling to commit to get married.

And we’ve seen this with a lot of both progressive and centrist and conservative women. We know having a really tough time getting men to commit to them. And I think it’s kind of similar to retire early for a lot of women at this point. It, they just feel like it’s not gonna happen. But that, that was my intuition.

You, you don’t think that’s the case?

Malcolm Collins: Sorry, repeat that. [00:13:00]

Simone Collins: Women these days, don’t think men that getting married is something that’s, that’s on the table for them. That men won’t commit to getting married anymore.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I just think that’s true. It’s the men of their, the, of the quality that they want who won’t commit to getting married.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And this perception is easy how it came about because the women are. Idiots and they’re dating on apps and they don’t know that the guys that they’re dating because they are matching with the top men on these apps, like this is just shown statistically well. And they are

Simone Collins: consistently finding that those men are not willing to commit to them because they’re lazy eights who are just looking to sleep around.

So they are not encountering men who are interested in marrying. Of course then they would not put marriage as a high priority ‘cause it feels like something that no man they encounter is willing to do.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, how do you, how do you get around this for our kids

Simone Collins: arranged marriages, dating networks that are focused around marriage.

That’s how,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, I, I mean, I love that. My mom, you gotta be careful not to like, get [00:14:00] stuck in. Our generation used to be like, well, just gotta like a debutante ball or something like that. Yeah. That’s where you’ll find a good wife. And I was like, they don’t host those anymore,

Simone Collins: mom. I mean, they, they technically do, but they’re not for that.

What. It’s not that there’s some specific type of social function that makes these work. I would even argue that we’ll say like LDS singles wards on their own. You can’t just like encourage your child if you’re a Mormon, to be a member of a singles ward when they’re of marriageable age. What, what has been lost societally is parental and familiar involvement in.

A young person’s, a young adult’s marriage, looking for partners, trying to find partners, being up in their business, trying to strategize with them, demonstrating that this is a priority, that is how you get your kid to marry. And, and also criticizing partners, weighing in with opinions. All these things matter.

Malcolm Collins: I think part of this is downstream [00:15:00] of expectations. Changing around like genuinely what this survey is, is, is, is looking at like what a good life is.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Because I went in to, you know, to. College was an expectation of now I need to start looking for a wife. Really? Seriously.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I was, it was, it was made clear to me and my family, don’t get married to anyone you meet in high school.

It’s, and people are like, why? It’s because you’re not gonna be around the best of the brightest in high school. Right. Like, you haven’t sorted into those environments like you do with college or your career yet. Mm-hmm. And so that seemed fine to me. Okay. Don’t marry just high schools for sleeping around.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Then I get out there and I what was I gonna say? For college, I I, I, I, and you knew this when you were talking to me, like marriage was just my focus at the time, right? Mm-hmm. Like everything was about marriage and it was more important to me early career than my career itself.

Simone Collins: [00:16:00] Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: And.

It’s interesting that I see a shared value as the Trump male voters but that even the Trump female voters don’t have that perception. So my question is, is how do you bridge that gap? How could somebody convince you, like, okay, go back to early dating, Simone, if it wasn’t me, how do they, what, what do they bring to you, I idea wise that convinces you?

Okay, I’m open to get married now.

Simone Collins: I, I could have only married you, Malcolm. I’m sorry. I’m, I’m so, I’m so head of heels for you.

Malcolm Collins: Part of the problem.

Simone Collins: Well, but yeah, I mean, I, IW it was so baked into my entire existence from a very early age. I didn’t have any peers throughout my childhood, male or female, who thought that marriage was a priority.

Who even thought that marriage was gonna be a part of their adult life. That just wasn’t a thing. Even the, the, the romantic ones of us, we only [00:17:00] liked romance manga and stuff. That was about like ence and dating. You know, the marriage wasn’t ever a factor in it. Marriage was sort of a, that, that’s the point at which good plots turned bad.

‘cause they get boring, you know? That’s the society in which I think many of us live when you aren’t surrounded by. Examples of good marriages and marriage. As you know, this is how you make life work, and especially I would say, and this is how ambitious people succeed. Because I think that was another really big thing, is if you were ambitious, it was framed to people that, well, then you need to find a good partner because that plays a key role in you being a successful adult.

You won’t be seen as a successful professional man without a beautiful wife, whether she’s a working one or a housewife. Right? Yeah. And now that’s not true anymore. You, and you wouldn’t be a successful woman if you hadn’t bagged a successful man, whether you choose to work or not again, and that is.

[00:18:00] Totally no longer the case. We’re totally atomized. We’re totally our own individual brands. And this is not to say that people were not brand obsessed back in the day, and as married couples, literally people named themselves, baker Fletcher, Smith Mason people’s names were their brands. Yeah. It. I, I, so, yeah, I don’t know.

We, we, we just, I, there’s nothing that you could have done as an individual parent if I still grew up in this, the San Francisco Bay area that would’ve made me want to get married with our own children. I think we just need to frame marriage is a key part in success that you will, that that, that living life as an adult unmarried is like living life as an adult without legs, you can do it.

It’s just gonna be a lot harder.

Malcolm Collins: So, right. No, I appreciate you focusing on the practical clinical concerns, but I also think of a large part of this was about the shame and the lack of inability to gain [00:19:00] prestige if you were unmarried. Mm-hmm. Well, and now

Simone Collins: marriage is just seen as a liability. I mean, you would agree, right?

In online content. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You’re gonna get divorced. They’re, they’re gonna be a helpless man, and you have to do so much more work. They’re a liability. How do you do finances, prenups, and all these things?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. I think there’s a shift in culturally, at least within conservative circles, as you can see from these results.

I mean, with the Charlie Kirk death and everything like that, what everyone is focusing on is his wife and kids. Right. You know? I, I think that, being a good husband in a good marriage is increasingly within conservative circles, especially as in elite conservative circles, seen as an an incredibly elite thing to be like very, very high status and a good like signal of character.

Whereas like in the past, things like becoming divorced is increasingly seen as low status again. Mm-hmm. Which actually the opposite has been true for periods. I was at a Heritage Foundation event. So conservative community, right. And the guy I was talking to was talking to me about how many, so many people from his [00:20:00] generation were divorced.

And he lived in la but in a, like a, a moderate political community. And he goes, well, what happened was is, you know, one couple got divorced on the block, right? And then that why I started talking to the other women and it became like a high status thing to do. Like, what? You’re still in your first husband?

Oh. You know, like, like that was almost a sign. That you hadn’t made it. Gosh. ‘cause if you had made it, you would’ve traded husbands or wives at least once.

Simone Collins: Oh, good heavens.

Malcolm Collins: So to still be on your first spouse mm-hmm. Meant that you had never really made it yet.

Simone Collins: But Malcolm, even you being the one so keen on finding a wife, we’re still.

Of the mind of the opinion, even when we got married that I was going to be your first wife.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The one until I got super rich and then I trade you in. Yeah, that’s still true. Simone, you still are my first wife. Okay.

Simone Collins: No. Okay. Understood. Understood. Ladies lineup. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That’s why, that’s why I keep the show going.

So I’ve got other women who watch.

Simone Collins: Right, right. Of course. Right. Silly me. [00:21:00]

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And they know because, you know, I barely beat you on the show. So they know that I am high status. Right. So the, the, the good good husband, right?

Simone Collins: Good husband.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, is this

Simone Collins: why we’re in separate rooms? ‘cause I’m just so

afraid of, of you.

I’m

Malcolm Collins: gonna go together. Absolutely. I’ll fly into a rage.

Oh my God. I, by the way, I really appreciate you. So we have this documentarian here who’s like, being very aggressive with me about like crazy political stuff like. Yeah, at one point she was like, what are you talking about? There’s no such thing as, as white privilege. She’s like, there’s places in this country.

Well, I didn’t say no such thing. What I said is, all ethnicities have their own challenges and benefits, right? Mm-hmm. Like it’s, it’s comparing apples to oranges. And she goes, but don’t you admit that there are some places in this country where you can’t go, you, you’ll fear for your life as a black person.

And I was like. Are you saying that white people don’t, like, there’s not places that you can’t go as a white person and, and she’s like, there aren’t, and I was like, no. [00:22:00] There’re like clearly are like, do you live in another reality than me? Like this? When, when she was like, there aren’t places that white people can’t go.

This is when, and this has actually been a recent thing for us ‘cause it sort of blew stuff up. It’s like, I just can’t work with you. Like this isn’t, this isn’t a political difference of opinion. This is like living in a different reality. Yeah. I’ve

Simone Collins: literally been places in the past traveling alone in my twenties in other countries where I believed because I was a progressive, like this person Malcolm’s referring to.

Yeah. I believed that as a white person, I was safe absolutely everywhere because of my privilege, et cetera. And I had instances of, you know, me getting in a taxi saying like, Hey, you know, take me to this place and drop me off. And they’re like. Lady, you can’t do that. And them [00:23:00] literally parking their cars and walking me inside to like train stations and walking me to the ticket counter and being like, okay, now you stay here within the line of sight of this police officer until the train comes.

Yeah. Things like that and, and me being like, well, that was weird. I wonder why they did that. Well there’s

Malcolm Collins: the famous case of the woman who was like, I am going to do a, a sort of like, hitchhiking across Europe and the Middle East to like show that like, you know, all countries are friendly, right?

And it was within the first mile. Of being in a Muslim majority body. Her, her, her body was later found griped to death within the first mile of, of going into the country. And, and it’s just ‘cause it’s, it’s different, right? Like she, she just, but this woman lived in this alternate reality to such an extent.

What I appreciated about you, ‘cause you wouldn’t have done this earlier in our relationship, is you were defending me and defending sanity so strongly to this individual, right? [00:24:00] And not. Like pussying out. Right. And I really appreciated that. Like I really appreciated it. Good and shoulda have

Simone Collins: done more.

I was trying, I, I still try probably too much to be nice, but. Yeah. And we, we, no, I, I

Malcolm Collins: remember when she was like, you know, like, oh, come on, like trans people are the victim group here. And you’re like, how can they be the victim group if they’re the group? I can’t criticize without being fired, right? Like, if I accidentally misgender somebody that could literally get me fired from my job, how can that group be the group without institutional power?

And I thought that that was very eloquently put. But the problem being is, I mean, things have

Simone Collins: changed now post vibe shift, which is I think why maybe we’re seeing, yeah. Even more polarization because, well, I mean, there’s a feeling of, of less indemnity

Malcolm Collins: very interesting for me because the left is like making all of the wrong moves in a way that, I don’t understand how they’re ever going to like come back in the culture war. And it seems pretty [00:25:00] clear to me what they need is they need to run a candidate. Like the candidates that have won before, you know, when, when a party was incredibly unpopular, like Trump, like Democrats right now are their least popular ever.

I think it’s in the past 10 years or something. Like just incredibly unpopular. And Republicans were here once before and then Trump comes and he has a bunch of policies that are standard progressive policies. Mm-hmm. And he has a bunch of policies that are actually to the right of other right-leaning individuals.

Mm-hmm. And, and Bill Clinton, when he did this last time, he was the same way. He had some policies that were to the left of other left wing individuals and some policies that were just straight up conservative. And I think that that’s what we need to see was the next progressive to win. We need

Simone Collins: cargo.

Short sweatshirt. Dude. What’s his name again? John

Malcolm Collins: Federman.

Simone Collins: Josh. Josh Federman.

Malcolm Collins: Josh Federman. Federman Fetterman. Could do well. Well, Roger

Simone Collins: Federman,

no,

Malcolm Collins: Nationally. The problem is John Fetterman. John Federman, I told you. Yeah. Is that the, the DNC and the political class is gonna fight him. So, so Orly like, I don’t

Simone Collins: know.

To their detriment, keep in mind the Republican party [00:26:00] vehemently fought, tried Trump, tried to fight Trump. Yeah. We sat in behind closed doors, Republican donor meetings where we heard. Politicians say to these donors, don’t worry. We have a plan to make sure he’s not a threat to us. Like, we’re gonna make sure, yeah, we’re gonna make sure he doesn’t, he doesn’t make it past, you know, the, the nomination they tried to

Malcolm Collins: collude, like I’m telling you behind close

Simone Collins: 100%.

And it’s

Malcolm Collins: funny that we were like invited to like big Republican, well I think it was ‘cause they were trying to show off to us. But like very important Republican donors meeting with like senators and stuff like this. And that’s what they were talking about there. They’re like, we got this on lock.

So

Simone Collins: that’s why I think Federman does have a shot. Because I mean, it’s not as though No, no, no. The

Malcolm Collins: T NNC is nothing like the RNC. It’s way harder to get around.

Simone Collins: Oh, they, they just have better control and barriers. I don’t know. I always saw that RNC do

Malcolm Collins: really, I mean, keep in mind the DNC was able to like literally just appoint Kamala as the, as the nominee.

Oh, okay. The, the the, that the RNC was considering this at that level [00:27:00] of unpopularity. But what, what this means and why I was mentioning all of this is it’s going to push people like this extremist into like a more narrow category. Like one of the things that she asked me was like, about white privilege, and I was quite taken aback by this.

Mm-hmm. She’s like, did you like deny your white privilege or something? And at one point she said, she. Felt ashamed for being white. And I was like, do you not know that? Like, these things are just racist now. Like, it’d be like going to a black person and being like, are you ashamed of being black? Like, within mainstream progressive politics, people don’t even say this stuff anymore, right?

Like, this isn’t like. Like a, you, this is, this is like extremist crazy talk stuff. Like this is like the progressive equivalent of like white nationalism at this point. Yeah. And yet there’s still a pocket of people who have doubled down on this.

Simone Collins: Well, you know, what else is telling about Gen Z? In general, and this is across the board, because I’m also looking at, okay, what does everyone have in common?

Basically, regardless of, of gender, sex, or political affiliation. [00:28:00] They’ve basically given up on being debt-free. Having no debt while it’s different places and rankings, it’s at 21%. For men who voted for Trump, it’s at 21%. For women who voted for Harris, 23% For women who voted for Trump, well, you’re

Malcolm Collins: the one who makes us live debt free, even though like financially you’re not.

I know for me it’s

Simone Collins: like number one, no debt. I owe people nothing. It’s, it’s like a really, I’m, I feel, I feel deeply uncomfortable. Even if someone compliments me. I’m like, I need to compliment them immediately so that my ledger is cleared. You don’t understand. There’s this like autistic obsession that I have of not owing.

Anyone, anything. Like if Lancasters always pay their debts, Simone’s always pay their debts immediately because it burns, it burns. I, I can’t even begin to tell you, but, and then of, of men who voted for Harris E, even fewer 16% noted that as important to them. I really feel, and maybe this is something we can explore in a podcast when they have more fodder in general.[00:29:00]

That we were approaching a kind of absurdist, postmodern era when it comes to debt between. Afterpay and Klarna and all these buy now pay later services.

Malcolm Collins: This is the thing. You always talk about this and you’re just so wrong. She expects some massive jubilee, right? The reason why you can’t easily get a massive jubilee is because the debt is not centrally owned.

What you think is, no. I think

Simone Collins: we’re gonna see like what happened in Japan multiple times where just like a bunch of people who held debt or companies, businesses that held debt was like, well, guess

Malcolm Collins: what? You’re not getting paid. But the problem is, is it’s not the company’s. Okay, so I’ll explain this to you because confusion here.

So when you get debt at like a bank or something like that Yeah. Especially the types of debt that people may not pay back.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: This debt is bundled with other people’s debts. Yeah. It’s

Simone Collins: in teachers’ pension funds

Malcolm Collins: and then sold to institutions. Mm-hmm. Which are invested in. The problem is when you wipe debt off the [00:30:00] books, what you’re wiping off the books is like.

Pension funds mm-hmm. And retirement plans. Mm-hmm. And city budgets. But don’t

Simone Collins: you think those. Those groups will stop allowing their money to be, to be deployed with, with businesses that include debts in their portfolios.

Malcolm Collins: Well, everybody thought this was gonna happen after the last financial crisis that resulted in this.

I mean, this what the, the, the, the 2000 mortgage thing, mortgage thing was literally just due to bounding of debt. And so they, yeah. They, they changed the, the wording and stuff like that, but they’ve gone back to, but it was, but it was just really

Simone Collins: risky mortgages in that one case. Like people, I be, I think, began to only associate it with very, very specific.

Types of debt instruments, whereas, I mean, probably people are better at hiding it now. And just they’re, yeah, but I, I don’t know. I just, I, I, I think that people have both given up on not being in [00:31:00] debt, but they’re also like, I’ll just always be in debt and I’m just never really gonna pay it. And then I’ll declare bankruptcy a couple times in life.

And I guess at that point people will not be able to have any debt for a while because their credit will be so bad. But I don’t know. I think that that just also points to, I mean, people really have this desire, which is also showing up in the numbers to be financially independent. But they’ve also.

As much as they want that they’re also like, but yeah, I’m gonna be in debt for my whole life.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t, I don’t, I I think that this is just normal debt as opposed to your like, autistic debt and that’s why they don’t feel this way. I, I actually put that the debt thing is higher up than I’d expect. Like having no debt is more important for men who voted for Harris and being married, you know?

So, yeah. But

Simone Collins: marriage, if you’re progress, what is marriage anyway like? Marriage has so little value if you’re progressive, that doesn’t surprise me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s why they won’t be here for longer. Like 40% of the way you [00:32:00] vote is genetic, which we’ve talked about. And nine out of, of of 10 Democrat children vote like their parents and it’s eight outta 10 Republican children vote like their parents.

And so if Republicans are having massively more kids Mm, very quickly, there’s just not going to be Democrats left, which I think we’re already sort of seeing that’s, that’s sort of where society is going.

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, the plan was just to have immigrants be. Democrats, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. It turns out that immigrants are very conservative people.

Whoops. Whoops. They told the progressives, they’re like, you know, we’re gonna get rid of this whole gay thing pretty soon. Like as soon as we’re in the majority, right? We’re on board with that. And progressives are like, it’s not a today problem. There’s just is very interesting.

This is part of why gays, especially like normal gays, make such good conservative allies is what moved Scott Presley to the conservative camp, was a fear of, , Sharia law and, , immigrants committing anti-gay violence. , And yeah, it just perfectly [00:33:00] aligns them was our interests .

And they’ve had an easy time, , working with, Christian organizations where even if they disagree with their lifestyle, , Christianity is a fairly unique religion due to the whole, you know, render under Caesar separation of church and state that’s promoted was in the Bible because very few other religions have that , , as clearly delineated.

Simone Collins: Well, progressive ideology in general is focused on.

In the moment suffering. And this is really

Malcolm Collins: interesting. When I was talking to this demographer, the, I mean the, the, the documentarian and, and we were talking about the differences between conservatives and progressive. She’s like, why do conservatives care about this stuff? Progress? Because I’m like, progressives don’t care about suffering.

That happens in the future. It’s like, yeah, when I told you well, and she was like,

Simone Collins: yeah, I don’t care about suffering. That happens in the future, which. Crazy. It

Malcolm Collins: shows what she said and she was being honest here, which I appreciate is she’s like, yeah, like intuitively when you explain to me that in a few decades social security is gonna go bust, I felt no sympathy for those future people.

Um mm-hmm. So I think it’s sort of like how you relate to time that puts you in one of these two [00:34:00] groups. Mm-hmm. Do you care about only people? In the present, or do you care about people across the entire range of TimeScapes? Mm-hmm. And I think that that’s also why so many of the progressive things are so, like time insensitive, like, like time sensitive, like do it now.

Whereas the conservatives things are more like life, life milestones. Mm. You know, like having money to buy the things you want versus being married.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that makes sense. That absolutely makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: So how, how would you mark these, by the way, Simone? If you were gonna rate them for yourself.

Simone Collins: Oh, like what would I rank at the top?

Yeah. What would you rank now? Me now as an adult?

Malcolm Collins: As an adult, yeah. You can do you now and then as a kid. Do like your top three at least.

I get it. My mine’s easy. It would be, having children would always have been my top one.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s number one. And then I see making family slash community proud. I would probably put that as number two because I think I define that as raising my children well and, and [00:35:00] doing good.

And then in there it would be number three, using talents and resources to help others. Which also again, is just serving my objective function. Right. Interesting.

Malcolm Collins: You didn’t say financial independence?

Simone Collins: No. Well, because everything that we are doing is downstream of our objective function and financial independence is not part of our objective function.

I mean, it would be helpful if we didn’t have the need for more income, but based on the choices that we’ve made. We have clearly decided to use our talents and resources to help others have children and, and have and, and, and make our family and community proud. Like to, and by that I mean like try to help them flourish, which is how I think we would define that.

We have clearly done that. Like we are going to have to work

Yeah.

Probably until we die. Just to make ends meet on a day-to-day basis,

Malcolm Collins: unless our fab takes [00:36:00] off and it’s awesome. Right now. You guys should check it out. Our fab.ai is like actually working now in pretty, it’s actually better than like

Simone Collins: character AI and, and replica and all the other ones.

You had me try, I was like,

Malcolm Collins: it’s a little slower now, but it’ll, it’ll improve and we’re gonna be working on a lot of features that are gonna be coming out very quickly because now I am the coder. I learned to code more financial independence more. You are the

Simone Collins: captain now.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You and Bruno

Simone Collins: Dream team.

Bru, Bruno.

Malcolm Collins: Bruno’s been really help. I couldn’t do it without somebody who can actually code like Bruno. Like he, yeah. This is, this is, this

Simone Collins: is a you and Bruno thing. Bruno. Bruno deserves flowers so much. Been

Malcolm Collins: having a team. F*****g, sorry. Teams are just a waste. Like I Yours Awesome though. Find this whenever I do anything.

Is it like, like they teams. Take so much time and cost so much money and it’s just, just do it yourself.

Simone Collins: Dynamic duos though, I I think it really does help to have someone else to not work in isolation. Yeah. So that you and Bruno are working on this. You and I like to work on things. I think we, we at least in our own lives have seen that working with at least one other one, only one other person on [00:37:00] projects is, is quite helpful.

Malcolm Collins: Well, so go to R Fab AI and try the adventure mode or they’re not safe for work mode. But yeah, I mean,

Simone Collins: I think that, that if you are an ideologically driven person. You’re not going to carry care as much about wealth, financial dependent, independence, retirement, et cetera. And you’re gonna care a whole lot more about putting your children, your family, your community, and your values first.

And the nice thing about doing that in many cases as that means that your children and community. Are there for you when you really, really need them. But it also means that you’re never gonna live with a level of super high material wealth and comfort. And that’s okay because as we found from the exposure we’ve been very fortunate to have to these things, they don’t actually make you happy, satisfied, mentally grounded, any of those things.

You, you, you don’t want them, they’re not

what

you think they are.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. I love you Toon. You are absolutely amazing. Thank you [00:38:00] for not being one of these Trump voting women who don’t even seem to have like, like that. That’s the thing that got me is, is, is they had stuff like, you know, having kids solo low for them.

I was like, well, at least they’ll be sane. And I’m like, oh God.

Simone Collins: Well I wonder if they put things like able to retire early, which is the very bottom of the list for women who voted for Trump at 9%. I wonder if that has more to do with the fact that they expect to be. Housewives. So like, what is retirement?

If you’re a homemaker Yeah, you, you never retire because, well, there’s always a home.

Malcolm Collins: Didn’t, didn’t Trump mail voters also put that there?

Simone Collins: For men who voted for Trump second to last, and also men who voted for Harris and women who voted for Harris. But see, I, I connect that with the whole debt thing.

And, and like people just expect that they’re always going to be in debt and they’re never going to retire because that’s the economy that we’re, we’re living in. We no longer live in an economy where we get social security. We no longer live in an economy [00:39:00] where people are able to do what they want.

Without debt, there’s a whole new trend. Or get a house, even a new trend where for a while there was this sort of like Swedish minimalist aesthetic that was being really pushed like in decorating blogs and in stores. Do you know what the aesthetic is now?

Malcolm Collins: What’s the aesthetic? What’s the aesthetic these days?

Like medieval

Simone Collins: castles, like people are making their tiny, little dingy apartments look like. Old medieval castles, and in some cases more like, you know, Victorian I mean, wa Wayne’s gutting has been really big. And, but people are, I think trying to create, knowing that they’re never going to own a house, they’re building their, their little hamster cages into sets that look like these things, acknowledging that they will never have the wealth.

Yeah, to even get a modest, a modest house. So that’s, that’s just where we are. And I, I just find that really, really [00:40:00] depressing. But it is interesting to see what, what Gen Z has in common across the sex and political spectrum, in addition to what’s so different. I think they’re, they’re equally telling, though, I really appreciate that being grounded spiritually.

Is at least so, so low for Harris voters. I, I guess because I hate spirituality. I, I guess I shouldn’t be happy about that because they’re just issuing religion and culture. But

Malcolm Collins: Simone, question for you. Yeah. What are we doing for dinner tonight?

Simone Collins: So you can choose as we discussed last night, to either do rendering with your sour cream and corn chips, which we have, and we should probably go through, oh, we

Malcolm Collins: don’t have any of rice left.

Simone Collins: We have plenty of rice. If you want rice,

Malcolm Collins: I want rendang and rice.

Simone Collins: I could also make fresh rice. I love the way the kitchen smells when there’s fresh rice. All right, go for

Malcolm Collins: it.

Simone Collins: I’ll do that. And so you want rendang with fresh rice or do you want some other, do you want chili with fresh rice?

Malcolm Collins: I want rendang today.

I want [00:41:00] something curry.

Simone Collins: Rendang with fresh rice, you shall have.

Malcolm Collins: And when you’re cooking it up, you might wanna put in some like coconut milk to make it a little liquidy. ‘cause if I remember, the rendang had gotten pretty dry.

Simone Collins: Then we have an open can of coconut milk, meaning we’re need, we’re gonna need to do coconut based dishes for a while because we don’t have cans anymore.

We have those giant cartons that we get from the Asian market. So,

Malcolm Collins: okay, then what about this?

Simone Collins: It just means that we’ll need to do a whole bunch of curries in a row, and I’ll water down the curries with the coconut milk. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: No, then okay, then no. What we’ll do, I can just add water. What you can do is add butter.

Simone Collins: How about chicken broth? Because then it’s flavor water.

Malcolm Collins: Butter is flavor water too. What’s wrong with butter? No,

Simone Collins: it’s an oil. It, it’s not, yeah. You mean

Malcolm Collins: butter or olive oil would be the two other things I would use other than coconut milk.

Simone Collins: All right.

Malcolm Collins: Butter is always good. Okay. Butter on rice. Yeah, butter mixed with reang.

That’s gonna taste great.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it probably is. It’ll, it’ll be great. It’s

Malcolm Collins: [00:42:00] fine. I, I’m just so frustrated with like, such a disappointing experience.

Simone Collins: Well, I think what they’re gonna do I, I have no idea actually what you talked about on the call. What I think they’re gonna do is just go forward with it, make.

The sizzle and then try to sell it to you and be like, look, this is what you wanted. And like, they’re gonna assume that you’re actually gonna like it and that you had misinterpreted the whole thing of what happened. And they might take more editorial control over what’s created and edit it together.

Because I don’t think that the director is going to be the one who edits things together. That’s not how these work. You know,

there’s like a billion

people and everyone has job, so they’re gonna choose how it gets edited together, and they’re going to conservatively try to edit it together in a way that makes you happy and say, okay, I am, I’m super on board.

And then they’re gonna, you

Malcolm Collins: might wanna like text him in something, being like, this is what I think you’re going to try to do. Just as a warning, he will not accept this. What if you

Simone Collins: really like what they send you,

Malcolm Collins: I don’t care if I [00:43:00] really like it. I would never, ever trust any product made by that person.

I would never, you’d still demand

Simone Collins: another director, you mean? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I would never trust anything she does. To be honest, when, when she said to me, there is nowhere in this country as a white person, you can go where you will not be safe. I was just like, oh. So you’re just willing to like bend reality and lie to people?

Like that’s, I just

Simone Collins: picture that diehard scene. But it, he was obviously made unsafe by the sign on his.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, no, no. But like somebody who’s willing to like say that with a straight face. What it shows me is, is it’s not even a matter of like trusting their integrity. It is their view of reality is so twisted that they will think that they are being honest while being dishonest.

And. Because of that, you can’t really work with them. That plus the complete disinterest in anything intellectual During the interviews one of the things that really got me is during one of the interviews I was talking about. And this really got me like, interesting stuff that anybody could have taken in like a really interesting direction.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Where that’s not even [00:44:00] flattering to us. Like many people think people where I was talking

Malcolm Collins: about like, oh, well, you know, in, in the far future you might be able to like, take genes from like different ethnic groups to try to create like new types of humans that are like a post. Like this is weird.

Like if you’re like a documentary, like dig in on that, that’s an interesting thing to be talking about. Mm-hmm. That doesn’t make me look good. Her question in response to that was, like, do you acknowledge your white privilege? Like that, she could hear that interesting hook and then waste time with such a pointless 2015 question.

That’s not even like modern progressive stuff. I was just like, what the, is wrong with your brain? Like, are you, are you so on rails that you cannot adapt to like what you’re hearing in real time and, and, and have a nose for like an interesting story? And that’s where I was like, okay, so I’m not gonna produce boring content with you.

Right? Like, I don’t wanna do that. I want something interesting. I don’t want something that’s flattering to me. I want something that’s [00:45:00] interesting and not stale political points. I want something that educates people and that people can watch and changes their minds, you know? And that introduces them to new ideas.

That’s our brand, right? And if you are incapable of engaging with new ideas, you’re gonna be incapable of delivering new ideas. But the bigger problem is, is I don’t know how she’s gonna put anything good together. Like, I’ve seen her other stuff and I was really embarrassed to talk with her about this, but it was terrible.

It was like really boring. It was like Oscar bait stuff and I was like, oh my God. Like, we’re not gonna be able to create something that’s so funny that the general audience wants to see.

Simone Collins: But I, I feel like yeah, a lot of people would understand what you’re making or saying, like in, in the past I like when we were kids, I feel like an Oscar winning movie was entertaining and good.

But now Oscar bait movies are, are so bad, pretentious and boring, and you only watch them for the same reasons you. You know,

Malcolm Collins: it’s funny what she asked me, like, what documentaries do I wa watch? Like obviously I’ve love stuff like Tiger King that’s like willing to go with low culture and fun. But like, the truth is, is I watch [00:46:00] documentaries all the time.

Internet Historian is a documentary. Oh yeah. Everything Internet Historian does is a documentary, is Golden Smokes. Any like, like in terms of like mainstream documentarians who like smoke in terms of view, numbers, anything that goes on HBO as a documentary, anything that goes on Netflix as a documentary.

So true, so true Internet

Simone Collins: historian. He

Malcolm Collins: doesn’t take it in this pretentious direction. He respects the viewer’s time. He tries to be entertaining. That’s the direction I want to go. Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if you can’t, and if you can’t emulate that, then I don’t wanna put out boring content Totally. Well, I mean, you guys know it’s our show.

Like I try really hard to edit out the parts where we’re just, where we’re not saying something that’s interesting to the audience where it’s not like a new perspective that they may not have interest in or it’s not like a, you know, for context,

Simone Collins: this is a, a fairly big deal for Malcolm because he had gone through a lot of trouble to try to get like a premium streaming streaming platform to seriously [00:47:00] greenlight a documentary on.

Culture and demographic apps that, that we could help lead. And we had even served up like various types of pitches and slide decks and here are other people we can help get involved in all these things. And finally we had a team that made it pretty far with a major premium streaming platform and they then selected and sent over a director who.

I didn’t get it.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, if somebody’s coming out here and, and it’s say, talking about white privilege in 2025, like clearly, well this person

Simone Collins: had no interest in actually engaging with any of our messaging on demographic collapse or the importance of discussion culture. And basically there her only interest was in de fenestrating us as, as individuals.

Yeah. And, and, and, and not talking about our, our, our work or the issues that we are attempting to promote at all, but just making it about us and about us being trash humans, basically. Yeah. And we’re okay with being trash humans in service. Of a larger goal, like in [00:48:00] order to get people to discuss demographic acts, even if they disagree with us, just completely pointless to us.

Yeah. We don’t want fame for fame for it’s own sake, is just a liability. It’s just bad. It just makes it impossible to get jobs and it puts you at risk and it ju, it just sucks, but like, it’s okay if it means that we’re making. The world a better place or, or, or promoting future human flourishing. This would, this totally cuts that off.

So Malcolm’s very miffed right now because he thought that he’d gotten to a point after we

Malcolm Collins: put into this, that they could just whiff like that by choosing somebody like this person. And if they don’t, and, and I’ll send you something to follow up with them on WhatsApp. Okay.

So that we’re like engaged, et cetera.

Simone Collins: That sounds good. And I will start your rice.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you Ade Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too. Gorgeous.

Do you think I’m right though? I mean. Very worried for them.

Malcolm Collins: Alright, I’m gonna send you some statistics.

Simone Collins: Ooh, I love the two steps. [00:49:00] Two steps. Oh, here they are. Ooh. Oh.

Oh.

Oh, oh, oh my gosh. We get started here. Yeah. Whoa. Just

Malcolm Collins: looking at the statistics and reacting.

Simone Collins: Yeah. When they, when they got this, this data back, they must have been like, this is a gold mine. This

Malcolm Collins: we’re cooked NBC, they got this data. This is crazy. Right.

Speaker 6: So wait, explain. What are you doing? Oh, I’m gonna, the bug designed, they’re gonna put it on the As. Hey, look. There’s a tunnel that look. That tunnel. What’s, [00:50:00] oh, wow. Be careful. There might be a bity bug. A bity bug. Don’t stick your hands in dark holes. What kind of bugs have you found? Oh. We already found one where we got away, wait, you remember the book that was rolling up into a ball?

Speaker 9: A Rolly pully. Oh, I know what it was called. It was it. It was, we Pull. Okay. It was, it’s called an Isopod as well, by the way, guys. Oh wow. It’s called an Isopod and when. They roll up into a ball.