Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

Join Simone and Malcolm Collins as they dive into the history, science, and controversy of cousin marriage and mixed-race marriage. From Darwin’s pro/con list to modern genetic research, this episode explores the cultural, biological, and personal sides of who we choose to marry. Stay tuned for surprising facts, actionable advice, and a few laughs along the way!

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Malcolm. I'm so excited to be with you today because we're gonna get spicy and extol the virtues of cousin marriage and mixed race marriage

Speaker 4: Mirror universe, encounter mirror, universe. This is easy. Yeah, I can pretend to be evil.

Deal.

Simone Collins: just so you know, wait, hold on,

Malcolm Collins (2): stop. Before you go further. Are we talking about mixed race or just cousin marriage?

Simone Collins: Mixed race and cousin marriage. Oh, really? Yeah. We're going, we're going in for both dude.

Malcolm Collins (2): Continue

Simone Collins: because ultimately I'm gonna argue that you should basically go for one or the other. But

Malcolm Collins (2): Okay.

Either, either marry your cousin or someone of a different race. Yeah, dude.

Speaker: Athens's log star, date unknown. My landing party is beamed back to the enterprise and found it and the personnel aboard chain. The ship is subtly altered physically. [00:01:00] Behavior and disciplines become brutal. Savage.

Speaker 3: Did how

this.

Simone Collins: We're gonna go,

Malcolm Collins (2): okay. So go into the genetics of this. Go. Go.

Simone Collins: Let me. Can I, Mr. Tired man. Just let, let me drive, let me cook. All right. Anthropologists estimate that over 80% of marriages in history have been between second cousins or closer.

So basically the default for the vast majority of human history has been people marrying their relatives. And I remember we were walking in, in the Alps in Switzerland, when you really opened my eyes to this, you were like, listen, like look at these hills. Do you think that the people who've lived here for thousands of years were like.

Going far away to marry someone. Like it was really hard. They weren't doing that. They were like marrying their siblings. But, so even today, cousin, marriage rates are pretty high, like especially in parts of the Middle East and North Africa and South Asia. They can meet up to 20 to 50% of marriages to date in countries like Pakistan or Kuwait or [00:02:00] Saudi Arabia.

But like, even if you're a, a weird, you know, European urban monoculture person, you should probably be cool with cousin marriage. It, it gave us Charles Darwin, who also in turn was a product of a well he was the product of his second cousin marriage, but he married his first cousin. Yeah. And he's, he's the evolution dude.

I mean he's the evolution dude. Yeah. Yeah. HG Wells. He was, he had first cousin parents. Tons of European royals, obviously. But even Albert Einstein married his first cousin, you know, like the, the smart people are doing it. And then if we go to mixed race, which mixed race, so, so

Malcolm Collins (2): you're a smart guy like Albert Einstein or Darwin, you're marrying your cousin,

Simone Collins: I mean.

And I, do you know about Darwin's list of like benefits and drawbacks of marriage? This man was very thoughtful about it.

Malcolm Collins (2): Oh, he did? He did a list, yeah. Oh my

Simone Collins: God. Oh, okay. Hold on. Sorry. Diversion. You don't know this list. Okay. Charles Darwin, marriage pro and con list. This is too good to. [00:03:00] Yeah. So pros of marriage.

So yeah, before he, before he married his first cousin he really thought he, like, he wasn't sure about getting married at all. So before he, he, he married his wife he made a pro con list. Pros of marriage as listed by Darwin. A constant companion and friend in old age children who could be a source of love and play charms of music and female chitchat, a home and someone to care for it.

Okay. Significant things I got, I, I

Malcolm Collins (2): got the pros. So yeah, you got

Simone Collins: the pros. A significant feeling of being humanized and having greater happiness than solitude and. A, a soft wife on a sofa with a good fire, books and music. What a sweet, I love

Malcolm Collins (2): that.

Simone Collins: Sex is not

Malcolm Collins (2): in there for him.

Simone Collins: No, he's, he's autistic. Darwin, he was probably asexual.

So the cons of marriage as listed by Darwin. A terrible loss of time preventing travel or pursuing scientific interests. You know, he [00:04:00] had, he had his special interests, Malcolm, the bugs. Okay. The, the animals. Limited freedom to go wherever he pleased. That's a problem. Forced visits to relatives and having to bend in every trifle.

He's not down with that. Also, the anxiety, expense and responsibility associated with children. He was not excited about kids. A reduction in funds, meaning less money for books. Ah, less money for bug. Yes. And less time for evenings out with friends and clever men at clubs. So clever men at clubs.

Clever men at clubs. Yeah. So woman, we chat.

Malcolm Collins (2): You get but not

Simone Collins: clever men. Not clever men. Yes. Yeah. You, you, you. Yeah. He had to trade in Clever men for a soft wife on a sofa with a good fire, books and music, but not as many books.

Speaker 2: Not as many. So he thought

Simone Collins: really carefully about this. Okay. But yeah, I mean like, so obviously like cousin marriage was the historical default because people couldn't get around.

But now mixed race marriage is bigger than ever and getting bigger. 18 to [00:05:00] 20% of new marriages in the US are mixed race marriages. They have produced amazing people. Barack Obama, Mariah Carey, tiger Woods, Vanessa Williams. So I'm gonna go through the history of cousin and mixed race, marriage, mixed race marriages, and how the regulation thereof has shaped civilization.

We're gonna talk about the benefits and drawbacks of cousin and mixed race marriage. Mm-hmm. Because there are ways to do it and there are ways to not do it. To be blunt, and I'll share general takeaways. If you wanna be really obsessive Darwin style about producing, do not do it. You're gonna suggest some racial pairings are bad.

I am. Yes. Sorry, but not sorry. But if you wanna have maximally fit kids based on your partner choice, there are ways to do it better than others. So on average oh my God, this my Basecamp. Okay, we're not about to get canceled. It's not we worth doing. And then ultimately I'm gonna explain why basically.

It's, it's optimal to either marry your fourth cousin or third cousin or marry someone from a very [00:06:00] specific different genetic heritage based on your sex and personal background. So this is different for men and women. Okay. Very specific. I'm gonna be tactical here. You're gonna come away with actionable advice for either you or.

Marriage planning for children, which is I guess what we're gonna be looking at. And then bonus Malcolm at, 'cause I've, I've looked, I hacked into your 23 and Me account and added you as a contact and I found exactly how much you and I are related. So you get to find out that at the end. 'cause everyone wonders just how related are we?

They, they think that we're brother and sister 'cause. You know, look at us.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, no, I mean, we are cousin marriage. She's not my cousin, but she could be, I think genetically faking. Well,

Simone Collins: you're gonna find out, aren't you, Malcolm? Are you gonna check that? I already did. I just told you I hacked into your 23 and me account.

I made us connect. Wait, are we related? You have to stay awake long enough to see. You have to wait until the end. I'll give you the screenshot. No, I like [00:07:00] and I. I went into your account so I could find our actual Oh my God, Simone, they're totally cousins, aren't we? You're gonna find out. So the history, the history of mixed race marriages and cousin marriages basically genetic and genealogical studies show that before the industrial age, most spouses were on average fourth cousins much more closely related than today's typical partners.

So we've sort of like let go. Which is sad. This may explain a sort of, I mean, the fact that maybe we, we are descended from so much cousin marriage could explain as sort of mating, which, which is the, this phenomenon of people being more attracted to people who resemble themselves. So studies have shown that participants in these studies rate faces morphed with their own features as more attractive.

So they're like take a general face and like. You know, meld it with pictures of them and those people like, Hey, that person's hot. It's really

Malcolm Collins (2): nice. Well, no, there, so the Western Mark effect, many people don't know this. Ooh. Yeah. If you grow up separate from your [00:08:00] siblings or your parents mm-hmm. You typically are unnaturally attracted to them when you become an adult.

Yeah. And the only reason you are not aroused by your siblings is because of something called the Western mark effect, which means your body cues to people who are around you and who you have affection for mm-hmm. During specific developmental periods, early in your childhood. Yeah. And causes a disgust reaction towards those individuals.

Yeah. When

Simone Collins: you're like. You, I would never, I see you as a sister, as a brother, whatever. Even if you're like,

Malcolm Collins (2): it's why people raise together, get this effect even though they're not biologically related. Exactly. Which is a big problem in some parts of the world where they practice communal ride prices at very young ages and trade the kids when they're still youth.

Because then they developed a Western Merc effect for each other, and they'll find each other quite

Simone Collins: disgusting. Well, this is also a big problem with those IVF donors who've like, you know, produced children, the all

Malcolm Collins (2): like into each other and it's a huge problem. Yeah, no,

Simone Collins: and like people have had the, like, there, there are support groups for this.

You can look it up for people who realize sometimes a [00:09:00] little late that they're attracted to their, their siblings. And I mean, how embarrassing. I mean, this has even shown up in like movie plots and stuff. It's, yeah, it's, it's a thing. But yeah, I mean also in speed dating experiments, people have rated opposite sex partners with similar faces, including geometric averages and shared ethnic features as both more attractive and more kind.

They're just like, you're a better person 'cause you'll look like me. Yeah, because you're more like me. Well, I mean, in group preferences are useful. Well, yeah, and, and also just in general, couplers are more likely to be of similar ethnicity and to share notable facial fe facial features like, like hair color and eye shape and face and cheekbone structure and even jawline.

I don't know, like it, it kind of feels like it dovetails to me with the, the, the, that weird phenomenon of also people looking like their dog. I think people just like. Like appearances that resonate with them. But one TV experiment, I thought this was funny found that over 75% of people picked as most attractive the face that had been subtly edited to resemble themselves.

So once again, like when, when researchers like. [00:10:00] Just insert your face into someone else, you're like, oh, damn, I wanna bang them. Which is, is, is just delightful. But cousin marriages have also been fought for centuries. So, I mean, very popular example. The Catholic church began to ban cousin marriage in the early Middle Ages.

And it gradually expanded this prohibition during the sixth to 12th centuries. And initially it only covered marriage between close relatives. But by the ninth and 12th centuries, which is still forever ago, it ex extended to as many as. Seven degrees of kinship. Can you imagine how hard that would be for people to be small villages?

No. It's

Malcolm Collins (2): basically a functional trap you, you in, in that time period. For people who aren't aware, there is no one you would've met when you talk about how distant seven degree kinship is.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): it wouldn't be seven degree kinship.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): So point out here, I don't know what degree kinship I'm gonna be to you in this cousin Max Simonon,

Speaker 2: but I'm

Malcolm Collins (2): pretty sure it's closer than seven and each other.

Randomly in modern society, I would be very surprised. And the, and the reason why the church did this is it gave them [00:11:00] more control over people because there's no, no other reason you would

Just in case you're wondering what the Bible does ban, you've got parents and children, Leviticus 18 7 8. That's probably a good one to have in there. Siblings and half siblings, Leviticus 18, 9 11, aunts, uncles, and nieces and nephews. Leviticus 1812 through 14 daughters-in-law, Leviticus 1815 Sisters-in-Law, Leviticus 1816 Grandchildren implied in broader family context.

And then if you're looking for the line that they use to try to get the broader, like seven degrees of consanguinity, it is Leviticus 18 six. None of you shall approach any of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. However, in the context, close relatives means close relatives.

Malcolm Collins (2): well there's, there's

Simone Collins: a, there's a couple reasons. I mean, like the, the one that the PC answer they give is like, oh, we wanted to like.

You know, get people to extend their networks more broadly so that, you know, there was broader unity. But like one of the big things is because to your point, it was really [00:12:00] hard to find someone who was that unrelated to you. Mm-hmm. You had to get a dispensation. And that generated income and increased the assets of the church.

But also they, they wanted to break up tight, extended, extended family clan networks and power. 'cause then, you know, the church had the power, not the family clans. And it, it also just had a profound effect on family and social structure in Western Europe. It drove the rise of the nuclear family, which, you know, you and I hate.

It weakened tribal and clan loyalty. So it was, it was, it was one of those like, you know, this, this, this. Early fight against cousin marriage, which is such a default, has shaped a lot of our history. And then many US based restrictions actually didn't emerge, which I think is really interesting until around the civil war.

Kansas was the first to ban cousin marriage, and it was only in 1858. Most of the prohibitions. Yeah, Kansas, most of the pro prohibitions appeared by 1930. Okay. So it was actually pretty late that the US started freaking out about it. But what's interesting is [00:13:00] it wasn't just driven by concerns about the health and fitness of offspring.

Like what, what they cited at the time was birth defects, idiocy deafness, blindness, et cetera. But they, they were also very concerned about social order and morality. And they wanted to promote civilization through marriages between unrelated people. So it wasn't just genetics. They, they thought like influential writers and ministers in the mid 18 hundreds linked cousin marriage with primitive customs.

They suggested that it undermined societal progress and moral standards. But,

Malcolm Collins (2): And I've, I've seen some articles recently that have argued that the reason why the West developed as much as it did and as quickly as it did was because of the band on cousins of marriages. Yeah. Which broke up Family clan networks.

Yeah, and mean you needed to have higher trust for society in general. Yeah. So I mean, and the

Simone Collins: Catholic Church did that. I mean, they did. It was profoundly influential. Well,

Malcolm Collins (2): in which case I would respond to then why is it that the non-Catholic, European countries are more economically developed than the Catholic ones?

Simone Collins: I mean, that's the thing. Yeah. Then you had the Protestants. Who didn't have those rules and those rules. Basically you had like this sort of [00:14:00] Protestant rum spring of cousin marriage and then you had like a closing again.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, and the Jews don't have these rules as far as I know. Jews do cousin marriages fairly frequently.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Do they? Yeah. Yeah. I think I have some stats later in here that, that cover that as, as of where we are today with cousin marriage, it's legal in about 18 to 27 states. So, it, it sort of depends on the conditions. It's illegal in, in 24 to 32 states. So more often than not in the United States, you can't marry your cousin.

Many of the states that ban cousin marriage recognize the marriages if they're performed elsewhere, but not all of them. So even if like you marry in a. Legal to marry your cousin. Where,

Malcolm Collins (2): where can't you still be married? Orthodox Jews, by the way, do frequently get married to their cousins.

Simone Collins: Okay, well there you go.

I don't have a specific listing of states. I don't care. You gotta look it up, man. Except that, here's the thing, second cousin and beyond is totally legal. Like

Malcolm Collins (2): everywhere. Well, second cousin and beyond, it's completely pointless from a genetic standpoint. No, no, no. You still have

Simone Collins: risk to the second cousin level.

We're gonna get to the risk and the, the, the stuff in a [00:15:00] bit, but I also also wanna cover briefly the history of mixed race marriages. In, in, in, there is actually a lot more mixed race marriage in early US history than I expected. In in US history.

I cut this section out because it was blindingly boring.

Malcolm Collins (2): Get to what, what's the point of what you're talking about? What is this? Where is the good that's coming from this?

Simone Collins: The good. Okay, so you don't want me to go over anymore?

Malcolm Collins (2): These are pointless. These aren't famous. This isn't Einstein. This isn't Darwin. This is random people who are famous.

Simone Collins: Miranda Carey. We had all these Yeah, there's, there's a lot of famous people, but sure.

We'll go into the benefits of both cousin marriage and mixed race marriage. Third cousin marriages have been found to yield the highest reproductive success. So you have, they have more children on average and more grandchildren on average compared with both closer relatives, like first and second cousins and very distant partners.

That's why I'm like. No. Third, the

Malcolm Collins (2): ideal genetic distance is third cut, third

Simone Collins: or fourth. You wanna marry your third? Yeah, go on 23 and me. Connect with everyone you can. And when you find a third and the fourth cousin, just like, go for it. You go in for the kill, you know, Hey man. Be [00:16:00] like, Hey, I've heard we're an optimal genetic match.

I saw you were my third cousin. Can I get your number? Yeah, yeah. This is the new pickup line people. I, I think part of this has to do with cultural compatibility. Like, you know, you, you built this theory in the Practice Guide to Crafting Religion. That culture and religion evolved alongside our biology for a long, long time.

And when you marry someone who's more related to you, you're also more likely to share the same kind of instinctual reactions to culture and to traditions. And you're able to have this more cohesive life together as a family, which I think contributes to this, this, you know, more prolific. Offspring thing, like your fertility is just gonna be higher.

And I, I think that that makes a lot of sense. But there's, I I, I was, when doing this research, I was wondering like, what about this, this, those experiments, the sweaty t-shirt experiments where women supposedly preferred men with. Jeans that were different from their own right. So I looked into it and what they're doing, what women are, are [00:17:00] specifically doing with these sweaty t-shirt experiments where basically they have male participants sleep in t-shirts without wearing any deodorant, did not showering.

So they like really pick up their scent and then they have women. Like, smell the t-shirts and decide which T-shirt mm-hmm. Corresponds with the man they find most attractive. Like, wh which t-shirt would you bang? Or like, whatever, you know what I mean? And specifically the, the, the men are different.

Like the, the shirts that they're most attracted to are men who are different, but in specifically immune system genes. Which indicates a preference for partners who are likely to produce children with more diverse and robust immune systems. Um mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): So you want them to be culturally and genetically similar, but have a diverse immune system.

Simone Collins: Yes. And I thought, well, like, well then don't. People who are more related have more similar MHC, like these immune system genes.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And no, actually M-H-M-H-C genes are among the most [00:18:00] diverse in the human genome. And there's hundreds of variants even within populations. Yeah. So third and fourth cousins are very unlikely to have highly similar.

MHC genes at the whole genome level. They may share some, but like just not that many, especially if they're third or fourth. And this is again, why, like you really gotta get that sweet spot of third or fourth and. You, you, you want this too because you're just gonna have a healthier kid. So yeah, I thought, you know, maybe that that's what's going on there, but yeah, just in case you were thinking, well, no, I thought being not related was a good thing, but no also, okay.

There are absolutely 100% benefits to mixed race marriages and let's get to that. So there's this concept of hybrid vi vigor and it applies much more to plants and animals and not humans. But it still does exist in humans. Like the TLDR R is, you can get hybrid vigor, but it depends on several factors.

Ooh,

Malcolm Collins (2): I thought humans were too genetically close for hybrid vigor to exist between populations.

Simone Collins: Not exactly. So it, it, it does apply in, [00:19:00] in humans in specific context, but the effects are less dramatic than those seen implants in livestock. And the advantages depend on genetic distance and health backgrounds.

Did,

Malcolm Collins (2): did you explain hybrid vigor to start? Like mules, stuff like this.

Simone Collins: Can you explain mules? I, I,

Malcolm Collins (2): sorry, mul as a specific example. So, hybrid vigor is a phenomenon in which, when you breed things that are genetically non-related to each other, but related enough to have children with a, one of the most famous examples being

A mule, which is a combination of a donkey and a horse.

Malcolm Collins (2): yeah. Okay. Anyway, one of, one of them produces the other and they are dramatically smarter, dramatically more robust, dramatically higher endurance than either of the parent species.

But they're also, you can't breed which is, which is not what you would get with, with a closer related population. And so the idea is, is that yes, you have this, this period where you wanna be super closely related, like third or fourth cousin. Mm-hmm. And then you

Simone Collins: don't, the

Malcolm Collins (2): benefits

Simone Collins: drop off.

And then the only other reason to like go. To [00:20:00] deviate. You're going super far.

Malcolm Collins (2): Super far.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like much, much farther. But it depends. It depends again. So we're, we're gonna get there. Like basically though the, the human benefits, 'cause I think these are really interesting, increased height, increased cognitive function.

They've been observed in studies with genetically diverse human pairings. The children tend to be taller and score slightly better on educational achievement when their parents consider. Like are, are considerably different in an, in ancestry and there's also a reduced risk of some recessive genetic diseases.

For reference here, she's talking about the child's IQ relative to the parent's iq. , So the increase in iq the child has over the parents, not necessarily in terms of absolute terms.

Simone Collins: Well, I I actually think you see this

Malcolm Collins (2): with, if, if, if you look, and I think anyone who's not like just lying to themselves would tell you that many mixed race pairings are just much more attractive than any.

Simone Collins: Oh, and that's, yeah. That's like the anecdotal thing, is that Yeah, like subjectively, people kind of overwhelmingly [00:21:00] agree

Malcolm Collins (2): agreed.

That like, oh, like white plus Asian is uniquely attractive. Yeah. For example,

Simone Collins: and that could be due to the genetic diversity could also be due to symmetry, which.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, symmetry would only increase his genetic health increase. That's why symmetry is a good proxy for genetic health.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So basically any genetically distant pairing can yield increased average height in cognitive achievement, and then black white pairings could increase sorry, could decrease the risk of a recessive disease.

So that's also great. And then Asian and white pairings. Typically produce increased height and possible better lung function. Really specific stuff. So like the benefits aren't huge, but I think they're non-trivial. But then there are complications. So the most important one, and you've pointed this out in a couple different podcasts, which is what inspired me to go, yeah.

Because I only knew about

Malcolm Collins (2): the black white one, which can be a complication and you found it in other [00:22:00] populations. So to, to start the black white one is well, the average white

Simone Collins: European population gestation is 40 weeks, 280 days. The average black and Asian population gestation is 39 weeks.

Malcolm Collins (2): I didn't know about Asians here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and so, and, and that means that if you are a white man. You marry a Asian or black woman, your mixed race baby might get ejected a little bit sooner than ideal. Yes, it

Malcolm Collins (2): basically does. They've done studies on this.

Simone Collins: No, they have, yeah. So there's a genetic mismatch between black mothers and, and white European babies and Asian mothers too.

They can lead the mother's body to initiate labor earlier than the fetus is developmentally ready. And this, this gestational timing is. It's, it's programmed by maternal genetics. So the, this just can't, mothers can't change this. So mothers with a black mother and a white father. Have a higher risk of low birth rate, premature birth rate, poor fetal growth compared to other birth combinations.

And, and research finds [00:23:00] worse outcomes like higher risk of preterm birth, lower birth rate, risk of stillbirth too, and infant mortality when the mother's genetics favor earlier birth. And the fetus is genetics favor a longer gestation. So here's where like the limitations to, like, it depends on who you are and.

And what your genetic heritage is. If you're a white dude, you need to think very carefully a about the risks or plan around the risks if you are marrying a black or Asian woman. Also, I didn't know that gestational diabetes and prematurity with Asian white couples is, is a risk too. So there's like research with Asian and white couples shows increased risk for gestational gen, diabetes, and variable risks for birth rate and prematurity.

So again, this is not just black populations, which is what you thought. And then maybe the obesity risk is higher in, in ethnically mixed individuals. It appears to be slightly elevated compared to both parent populations, which I don't know what it could be like. Maybe like metabolic [00:24:00] programming doesn't work well with mixed race.

Like that one, no one really understands yet. And then the other thing that, that really hits mixed race couples, which I think is probably, if you were gonna ask me, I would say this is the biggest factor is just cultural mismatch. That you have different parents, different cultures, and also if you're coming from a really different genetic background, again to that point, like your biology has evolved for thousands of years alongside a specific culture that is very different from the culture alongside which your partner.

Their biology has evolved. So there's that. And then of course, yeah, cause marriage is also not perfect. The major risk is that the kid inherits a recessive genetic trait from two parents. It's just more risky if they're related. 'cause you're gonna have more roll of the tice that you're going to get, you know, from both parents, the recess recessive trait, and then end up with it.

But it's so much lower than I thought. Like I thought marrying your cousin was like, oh, you're screwed now. Like you're gonna have deformed kids.

Malcolm Collins (2): But so in most cultures throughout human history, when they talk about the vast majority, [00:25:00] I've talked about this on other episodes, but it's an interesting point, is cross cousin marriages actually have a lower chance of leading to genetic deformities than non cousin marriages if you're in a tribal environment, which is why the vast majority of human cultures have preferred cousin marriage at, if you look historically interesting, and people would ask, why do cross cousin marriages lead to lower amounts of genetic degradation?

And it's because protect you about this. So across cousin marriage to explain is when you marry the opposite gendered cousin to that parent,

Speaker 2: right? So

Malcolm Collins (2): it would be marrying my father's sister's kids or marrying my mother's brother's kids. Mm-hmm. And you could say, why is that less likely in a small tribe to lead to genetic problems than non-US marriages?

And the answer is because that's about the only person in the tribe you can be sure is not a half sibling of yours. Because it, yeah.

Simone Collins: Because studies of sibling, sibling meetings find that 43 to 50% of their offspring do have serious health issues. Mm-hmm. Including tribal, including gender abnormalities and [00:26:00] intellectual disabilities.

And yet only 10% of first cousin marriages. Can produce issues.

Malcolm Collins (2): Right? Right. And in tribal environments you get a lot of infidelity. And so anyone in the the tribe could technically be your half brother or sister, except for a cross cousin, because it's very unlikely that siblings would sleep with each other.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So that, that makes a lot of sense. 'cause sibling is like. No, really don't go there.

Malcolm Collins (2): But this is actually even the, the, the, the single cousin marriages, it's causing a lot of genetic problems in environments where you get this happening for many generations. Yeah. Like within some immigrant groups in the UK that we cannot speak of.

Yeah. But it's causing major genetic degradation in these

Simone Collins: populations. Oh. I thought that it was more of an issue of father daughter pairings. No,

Malcolm Collins (2): the father daughter pairings is really big within. I thought that's what showed up subgroup that we can't talk about. Yeah.

Simone Collins: But everybody knows, well you say cousin nonsense.

That was like, no, no.

Malcolm Collins (2): Cousin still matters.

Simone Collins: Cousin still matters. No. So like, and yeah, with first cousins, the rate of. [00:27:00] Something bad happening. Like a, like a genetic problem is double a normal, like coupling a, an unrelated coupling, but like double just means four to 6% versus two to 3% for unrelated couples.

So it's one of those things where like, you help me with this, like when I had a fever in like early in this pregnancy and I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna cause like, you know, spina bifida or something and you're like, 'cause you know I have a 10 x the risk of it now. And you're like, yeah, but 10 X puts you at like.

3% or something. So I, I appreciate your pointing that little detail out about increased odds. But basically once you get to third cousins are farther there's no, okay. How related are we? You've been leaving the audience. Well, I just for the takeaways. Yeah. We'll, we will wrap it up. The TLDR of Cousin Marriage Safety, most major medical organizations consider marriages beyond second cousins to pose no significant risk to offspring.

The chance of both parents carrying the same recessive disease just [00:28:00] falls so dramatically it doesn't even really matter anymore. So you should just marry your third or fourth cousin, or as a white woman, you should marry an Asian or black man. And as an Asian, our audience is gonna love that. Simone, you should marry a white woman.

And if you're a white dude and you insist on being a passport, bro, just like, maybe stick, I'll point out one

Malcolm Collins (2): counter argument here that you might not be considering. Okay. Is that of all the ethnic groups in the United States and I can put a graph on screen here. The lowest fertility rate is mixed people, and I think it's a cultural

Simone Collins: mismatch.

It's stressful, it's hard.

Malcolm Collins (2): You don't pick up pride in either of your identities often, and so it leads to, I mean, if you're like, I wanna pass my genes on, it may not be the best strategy for that, even if you get a short term boost.

Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely. Also, like in the end, I think when you and I are looking for partners for our kids, what we're really gonna care about is that they're, they're both young, that there are general signs of fitness in both health and [00:29:00] performance.

You know, they're successful, they're ambitious, they're driven, they're capable of getting stuff done. So I, I don't think I'm gonna curate that much about relatedness or race and more about those factors and like also like how successful are their parents and how good do their parents look as they age?

Like, do they age well? Like, are they genetically healthy?

Malcolm Collins (2): You always gotta check out the parents. My, my mom, my mom and dad always told me that They said look at the mom if you wanna know what she's gonna look like in 20 years.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, okay, I'm gonna send you on WhatsApp. The screenshot from 23 me of our partner relatedness.

I think you'll be surprised. There you go. Our, our kinetic relationship, 0%, 0%. We didn't weep people. I mean, I was shocked. I was shocked. We're not really. How can this be? How can we not be related? I was certain that we were related. No, you weren't. I was too. That's why I was like, oh, I've gotta, I've gotta gotta find this out.

' cause I mean, this is gonna be [00:30:00] great, you know, we can humiliate ourselves online by showing up. Everyone was saying, oh, the cousin marriage. The cousin marriage. Yeah. Didn't you say that? Like one, one, someone online had like nicknamed us the Cromwell twins or something. Yeah. I mean we, yeah, and, and then there's also the, the, the, that one conspiracy theory from really early on that we were just literally the same person, just like cross-dressing and filming separately.

But yeah, who knew? You're not my cousin. I'm so sad. We're, we're not optimal for my new system. You're not my third or fourth cousin, not even my first cousin. Sorry, Malcolm didn't mean to. Well, I love

Malcolm Collins (2): you Simone. And even if you're not my cousin, even if you're not my cousin,

Simone Collins: tragedies abound. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): no, I think cousin marriages are one of these things that in the future we're going to have to normalize you again.

Yeah, because we're going to need to normalize to genetically isolating ourselves from mainstream populations. Mm-hmm. If we begin to see a dis genetic spiral in the mainstream population, which we're [00:31:00] already seeing well, and also like as

Simone Collins: marriages are so much easier, like you can now screen embryos for all sorts of conditions.

You know, and it also cousin marriage populations like already do this. There, there are populations all around the world. Did you, Jews do this?

Malcolm Collins (2): Your Orthodox Jews do this for taste Actually, yeah. And also there's a

Simone Collins: community in Africa that do it. There was a, a girl who at used to attend, woman who used to attend our like cocktail parties who at one point like went to Africa to do a story on a specific community that.

To genetic testing for pairings like this. So no, this is pervasive and common and now more superpower than ever. Like you can absolutely. I mean, you could even marry a sibling now and like, you know, probably. But you're

Malcolm Collins (2): gonna need this for like spaceships and stuff. You know, when you hundred percent like your solar travel, the populations aren't gonna be that big.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): You're going to need to normalize ways to genetically, so I would, I would say in most good endings for humanity cousin marriages have been renormalize within the next 500 years.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this just us trying to impose our [00:32:00] Appalachian cu culture

Malcolm Collins (2): on, well, it does have one of the highest rates of incest porn searches states.

Simone Collins: They're,

Malcolm Collins (2): they're into it. I was like, oh, God. You know? Oh boy.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean the whole, yeah, like kissing cousins. Trope stereotypes exist for a reason.

Malcolm Collins (2): Sorry,

Simone Collins: but Yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): But you have clan based, family based cultures, as we've talked about. You're gonna get more cousin marriages. So it would've been very normal for the regions that we're descended from to have cousin marriages.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Again, we're just like, I think the big stigma against cousin marriage is this. Catholic, driven from like the ninth century on don't marry your Cousins thing, which I really think, I mean, all I I, I do think it was about amassing power and about collecting. Dispensation fees because you know, cousins still definitely got married.

They just had to pay for it.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, I mean, especially if you're in one of the royal lineages, every one in the royal lineages was within seven gen [00:33:00] degrees of somebody else within one of the royal

Simone Collins: lineages. I mean, yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): there wasn't a lot. That's like a comical law just means like basically every, every royal, every noble has to pay us to get married.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but also like smaller villagers and stuff, like people

Malcolm Collins (2): not a biblical reason for it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I, I didn't look into like their reasoning for it, like when it, when it happened. Sure. It pissed people off 'cause it just made things more expensive. But yeah. Interesting stuff. Surprises and twists. And thanks for inspiring this episode in the first place because I.

Was shocked by that gestational information and it is a big deal. Like being born premature is, is really rough on kids. We know that from one of our kids who was born premature and is still behind in growth because of that prematurity, I mean, you took him to the endocrinologist and who's basically just like.

Yeah, no, he's fine. Like all his blood work looks fine. Everything else looks fine. He was just born [00:34:00] premature and just that four weeks.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. And, and that had a major effect on one of our kids. So we're saying this is people who've gone through this ourselves.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. It was so we know, but just, I mean, like, you know, if you're a white dude looking to passport, bro, it just prepare.

I guess. I, there's not really a whole lot you can do though. That's the tough thing is like, if you. You can't change a woman's genetic programming in terms of like when she goes into labor. You can ask her at what week of gestation her mother went into labor. 'cause that's often a pretty good predictor.

But mm-hmm. I don't know. Good luck guys. But that's my advice. Yay.

Malcolm Collins (2): Anyway, I love you. Yeah. Your advice is get married to your cousin. That's where you look first. Marry your

Simone Collins: third or fourth cousin. That's right. Log on to 20, train me. Go to ancestry.com. This is your new dating website. This is how you do it.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): Could be in the future. I mean, I, I think when we put together the, the index for the Teop Puritan people, [00:35:00] everyone will be like, are they the weird ones who practice like third cousin marriage only

Simone Collins: arranged marriages with cousins?

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. I'd be like, yeah, it's, it's that one. It's

Simone Collins: that weird one. That's us.

That's us. It's funny though, because there's that one Nordic country that like has a registry to make sure you're not. Dating your cousin, right? Yeah. So, you know, like Iceland

Speaker 2: or whatever

Simone Collins: gonna have to, although I'm sure it's just first cousins, I'm sure. Like honestly, I bet that they've super normalized it.

They're like, well, phew, we're not first cousins, so we're good to go. Yeah. Yeah. God. All right. I will let you nap and then you'll have mi Miso soup for dinner and I love you very much.

Malcolm Collins (2): I love you so much. And yeah, miso Soup would be great for dinner tonight.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You're so hungry.

Malcolm Collins (2): It's a very delicious dish.

And I'll, I'll do a little bit a side of

Simone Collins: mac and cheese and pesto and cheese.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I'm gonna, I'll saute it with a little pesto.

Malcolm Collins (2): Ooh. Sauteing mac and cheese. That's how you really know.

Simone Collins: I mean, you're worth it, [00:36:00] Malcolm, don't you think? I

Malcolm Collins (2): don't think so. I think I'm not even, I'm not even related to you, Simone.

I am unrelated trash. We just. Call this. I'm a trash pairing. I'm the same ethnicity, unrelated.

Simone Collins: Sad that, yeah, maybe this is just the, this is the end of our relationship. We thought we were so, I was shocked too. I weirdly was shocked. But anyway, I'm gonna start your chili tonight too. So if you have any specific requests, I've already prepared the beans, so I'm gonna get that.

Okay. So we're

Malcolm Collins (2): doing describe the ingredients, if you remember. So, yeah,

Simone Collins: hold on. I'll hold

Malcolm Collins (2): up.

Simone Collins: Him, him. Based on award-winning brisket. Chili recipes. We've got beef brisket, trimmed and cut into half inch cubes. Four slices of thick bacon, kosher salt, black pepper, onion powder for seasoning the meat. [00:37:00] And then for the chili, we've got two cups of white onion diced, two bell peppers, diced.

Gonna use the frozen ones per your request. Four to five. CLOs of garlic, minced or pressed. I'm gonna use our minced garlic. Two tablespoons of chili powder. Ideally a Texas blend. Sorry guys. I'm probably gonna also maybe throw in some of your Sichuan chili powder.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Instead. 'cause I think that's more fun.

Gotta have a, a Malcolm twist. The tablespoon of smoked paprika. A tablespoon of cumin. Dried oregano, Chipotle chili powder or crushed red pepper to taste dried thyme. Optional one half. We're not doing this one half cup of strong brewed coffee or substitute beer or extra broth. We're not doing that, but,

Malcolm Collins (2): but it would have a very big impact on flavor.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, if you want me to take an espresso pod out and just throw it in, but I'm not gonna do that.

Malcolm Collins (2): That's a, it's

Simone Collins: gross. And half an espresso pod. Broth. [00:38:00] And tomatoes. And then the beans,

Malcolm Collins (2): so, huh. Any of that you'd replace with coconut milk?

Simone Collins: I can replace broth with coconut milk and put in bullion cubes, but now we're going way off the grid.

Okay. Well, we'll stick

Malcolm Collins: with the broth. We'll stick with the broth you want, I

Simone Collins: mean, I can, no, no, no, no. Are you sure?

Malcolm Collins (2): And for the coffee, we, we have coffee,

Simone Collins: we have, we have Nespresso pods for the guests who stay,

Malcolm Collins (2): I don't know, are they filled with a liquid or are they filled with a

Simone Collins: They're filled with the grounds and I would need to steep them and prepare the coffee.

So I say we skip it. I just wouldn't I get where they're going with this. I would rather kick this up with Indian spices after we have it going for a day.

Malcolm Collins (2): I like that idea. You know what's up?

Simone Collins: We have the Kar, we have the, like all these really [00:39:00] great blends that I feel like would be more to your taste instead of this bitter kick.

Because what they're really, if they're like, they want a strong beer or coffee, they're really just trying to add a kick. I would rather see a kick from like sour cream as a topping and then this great undercurrent of rich. I think you're right.

Malcolm Collins (2): And you know what's up, Simone?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): All right.

Simone Collins: Oh, I have to sear the brisket first.

Malcolm Collins (2): You don't need to sear it first.

Simone Collins: You want the flavor the right way.

Malcolm Collins (2): Malcolm. It's not even brisket. We're using Chuck.

Simone Collins: Well, we have to, we have to sear it in the bacon fat.

Malcolm Collins (2): Oh.

Simone Collins: So we cook the bacon slices until crisp. Oh, yum. Transfer bacon aside. But leaf fat and pan, and then. Then we sear the cubed brush.

Then what I wouldn't do is do it in

Malcolm Collins (2): cubes. I would do it in longer sections.

Simone Collins: Why the cubes area to absorb the ba, the fat.

Malcolm Collins (2): So you do it in like longer sections. Okay. Do you [00:40:00] understand what I'm suggesting here? The

Simone Collins: diminishing surface area? No.

Malcolm Collins (2): Not diminishing surface. Oh, you

Simone Collins: want thin? You want me to essentially create bacon slices of brisket, like bacon slice,

Malcolm Collins (2): not, not bacon size.

Small, but regular steak size small. The reason is you will understand when I explain. The reason is when you were doing really long, slow cooking periods on meat, like this was the point of it breaking down. When it is in cubes, it doesn't break down as quickly because the cubes just tighten up and get smaller.

Simone Collins: Okay, fine. I'll do strips. We'll do the strips.

Malcolm Collins (2): Alright, thank you Simone. I have, sorry. Sorry to annoy you.

Simone Collins: Oh gosh. And you have to pres saute the onions and peppers too.

Malcolm Collins (2): You don't have to.

Simone Collins: And then add the garlic. No, I really do think that this initial, like higher heat cooking followed by just a very slow burn is, is kind of what we're going for.

Malcolm Collins (2): All right. I love you so much. Bye. I love you too.

Simone Collins: Bye. [00:41:00]

Malcolm Collins (2): Bye not cousin.

Malcolm Collins: I will try.

Simone Collins: Okay. And I was gonna do hot dogs again for dinner. Unless curry, I can do curry for you instead. You prefer that?

Malcolm Collins: I prefer something easy on the stomach, so maybe pasta as pesto.

Simone Collins: You only have a tiny smidgen of pesto left, so

Malcolm Collins: probably not much. Maybe pasta with just cheese, pasta, and I'll put some pesa on it.

Simone Collins: What I mean, we have leftover macaroni and cheese. I just,

Malcolm Collins (2): they'll have leftover macaroni and cheese.

Simone Collins: Seems like you're slumming it. If you have an upset stomach, we can do something.

Malcolm Collins (2): Then you could do miso.

Simone Collins: Would you like miso soup?

Malcolm Collins (2): I'd love miso soup. Okay. Do we have the ingredients for miso? So soup?

Simone Collins: I believe so.

I'll either give you mac and cheese leftovers or,

Malcolm Collins (2): I mean, I saw [00:42:00] miso in the fridge. I just dunno how much you need for a batch.

Simone Collins: I will work it out and then I'll do that so that you have something a little more tasty for you. And if I need to dump out half of the fish, bonito, flake fish teeth that we have to make to do it properly, I will do so.

I'll do what it takes. That still smells. I mean fishy. Of course it does. Alright. And, and

Malcolm Collins (2): you do it with the seaweed. The seaweed was really good last time. I, I don't need the, just not as

Simone Collins: much. 'cause Yeah, that a little goes a long way. I didn't know how much it expands

Malcolm Collins (2): once you Oh no. You didn't put in too much seaweed last time you put in, you said I did.

No, I thought it was the, I know I said the tofu. I didn't really need any tofu.

Simone Collins: There's not gonna be any tofu. Last time you said there was too much seaweed, but

Malcolm Collins (2): I did. Okay. Yeah.

Simone Collins: So I've learned, I'll learn but. For now, I'll kick us off because you're, you're sleepy and you can't stay up by quitting all night, every night.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): I can. I am an amazing coder now. I have learned, [00:43:00] I'm making so much progress. You

Simone Collins: gotta, you gotta pace yourself. But I, I will, I will. We're letting Jesus take the wheel. Or worse, worse, a woman. So let's, let's go. Okay. You ready? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You're so tired looking. Okay.

Speaker 7: 10 today, which they're very proud of. Extremely proud of, and now they're trying to get her inside it and drive her around and it's really cute. That's how I look. Yeah.

Speaker 10: What is this? This is a car close. Daddy, watch out. Make sure she doesn't fall. Is she driving on the Yeah.[00:44:00]

Speaker 11: I love that.

How Many Species of Humans Are There? In this thought-provoking episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the science and controversy behind human genetic diversity, species classification, and what it really means to be "human." From Neanderthals to modern populations, they explore evolutionary history, genetic divergence, and the social implications of speciation. Expect lively debate, fascinating facts, and a few spicy takes on science, society, and the future of humanity. If you enjoy challenging ideas and want to learn more about human evolution, genetics, and the boundaries of species, this episode is for you!

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today is almost certainly gonna stand among our most controversial episodes in which we will be arguing. And I'm not saying that, that, that, that I would argue this, but I'm going to say if humans weren't humans, right, we would likely categorize them as multiple different species.

Simone Collins: Oh no. Oh God.

Malcolm Collins: Oh no. And now you're coming into this and you're likely thinking, Malcolm, that's insane. Like you must be stretching the data here or something. Did you know that there are living human populations alive today that are more genetically distant from European populations than the Neanderthals were?

Simone Collins: Whoa. And they were considered a different species. Right? Like technically they're a different species. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Now, Neanderthals, it did split off much earlier, but that doesn't mean that they weren't more genetically similar to European populations in these populations. Well also 'cause

Simone Collins: there's a decent amount of Neanderthal in a lot of Europeans, right?

Malcolm Collins: No, [00:01:00] it's 1%. It's not enough to really fudge the numbers in their direction. Okay. So, so, okay. Okay. You might be thinking Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's go back here. Let's go back. We're gonna go back to okay. We're species. Where does species begins? Darwin's finches. Okay. Darwin's finches.

Okay. Darwin's finches evolutionarily diverged from each other and are less genetically different from each other than these humans are from Europeans.

Simone Collins: That's a good point.

Malcolm Collins: We haven't got yet. We're gonna get into a lot of data here. Oh gosh. It's, it's very uncomfortable data. And I'll at the end, just so you know, so nobody comes in here and says, Malcolm is saying that there are currently multiple species of humans.

I'm not saying that we are in the sliders timeline.

Speaker: What if you found a portal to a parallel universe? What if you could slide into a thousand different worlds [00:02:00]

Malcolm Collins: by the way, for those who didn't watch sliders in sliders, one of the core antagonists, because they could slide between dimensions, was a branch of humanity that evolved from Crow mags. Oh, I didn't

Simone Collins: know that. I didn't watch the show though. So,

Malcolm Collins: It's a great show.

People should watch it. But anyway one of those great classic sci-fi anyway but the, the, what I think they show in this show is this fundamental fear that if we admitted, like if there are multiple species of humanity around today, like why is that an issue? Right? And people will be like, oh no, no, no, no.

They can interbreed and have offspring. They can interbred. Well, you considered Neanderthal a different species, right? Yeah. And you know, just admitted we have Neanderthal DNA and we're gonna go over a lot of species that can I breed and have, and have. Children that inter breeded. So that's not how species are actually [00:03:00] defined, that's how it's defined to you in kindergarten when you don't understand how species work.

So how are they

Simone Collins: really defined? You're gonna go into that?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I'll go into this. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So, it's, it's one of these things where I think that it, the urban monoculture sort of has this perception that if humans who were different from us actually existed, we would have to eradicate them, or we'd have to like, restructure all of society.

Oh. Instead of just admitting like different populations exist that are different in this way and this way and this way. Oh, by the way, you know, this is gonna shock you as well. You're like, oh, you're talking about dramatically genetically different humans. Are you talking about those super black people in Africa?

Are you talking about those really fast people in Africa who always win like Olympics and stuff like that? Those African populations? Are actually genetically closer to Europeans than they are to the populations we're gonna be talking about.

Simone Collins: No way. Whoa. The Bantu

Malcolm Collins: that make up like a large African group, right?

Ban. Are they the ones

Simone Collins: famous for fast

Malcolm Collins: runners? No. The Bantu are the ones who are famous for murdering almost everyone in Africa. Nope. They they [00:04:00] spread across, they had this, we're gonna do an episode sometimes on the, the genocide you don't know about. But you can look on maps and they, they basically spread through and just wiped out a lot of, there might have been many more of these early genetic clusters that we don't know about because the Bantu eradicated them.

But anyway, the Bantu are one of the large, large groups in Africa today that a lot of people think of. They're more genetically similar to Europeans and they are to these populations we're gonna be talking about, by the way, if you are an an, an African American, you are closer to Europeans than the groups that we're gonna be talking about.

So the groups we're going to be talking about are groups for you are very unlikely to know anyone from these populations. Because I think if you did, because we'll be looking into them morphologically, they look morphologically different enough that you would, you would be like, yeah, I'm, I'm comfortable with saying that this is the different species of hominid.

A lot of people. Oh, really? Oh, oh wow.

Simone Collins: Usual people that you're not seeing walking around the streets of New York City.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like earlier today I saw, 'cause, we'll, we'll go into this. I saw like they have different ture, they have different body features. Like I saw in a post today, somebody was looking at somebody [00:05:00] who had gotten a, I guess a, a butt injection or something like that, that, that made their butt look like a giant like balloon that like popped out.

Like you could stand on it or something if you wanted to. Oh my. And I was like, Ew, gross. Then I look at, at these people, I'm not saying like, you, you know, you have different for these people culturally. I mean, somebody did that because they thought it was beautiful. Right. It's just my cultural perception.

Right. These people actually have butts like that.

Speaker 4: Oh, naturally.

Malcolm Collins: Naturally. Yeah. Good for them. No, good for them. Again we're, we're, we're I'm not saying anything and I'm not saying I believe, I, I actually think that species, what you're gonna learn in this is species is largely subjective. And so that I am going to subjectively choose to say humanity is one species for now, until you and I genetically engineer a new species of humans, which is our families, and that is

Simone Collins: 100% our goal.

Yeah. We're, well, we're sort of a pro speciation group, so I don't see why speciation should be seen if we talk about it as a negative thing. Right.

Malcolm Collins: I don't want able to, to ever say, because we're not arguing this, that there are multiple species of humans. I'm not ultimately say it's better, like from the perspective of just like understanding how populations [00:06:00] work to just say there is one species of of hominid left.

Oh, by the way, if, if you wanna say, why is it

Simone Collins: better to say that? Why is variety a bad thing?

Malcolm Collins: I don't. Personally think it's a bad thing. But I think the way that our society is set up right now, it is a bad thing because of the way the urban monoculture relates to human differences. In the same way, a reporter, when they talked to me there was an instance in which a reporter was talking to me and they were like, well, if you guys continue to genetically modify humans, like what if human were born or like significantly smarter than other people?

Like, won't we have to eradicate them? I'm like, what, what are you talking about? Wait, what? Like, that was the implication. Like you cannot have humans who, well, like I

Simone Collins: guess we're gonna have to kill you 'cause you're too different. Seriously. Well, that's

Malcolm Collins: the Star Trek universe in Star Trek. That's the case.

Humans. Well, yeah, but we're not Star Trek. We're not even this Star Trek is the belief of the urban monoculture. Okay. But anyway I'll put a, a graph on screen here, which many people haven't seen, so they don't really understand like how early these people. Simone, this is a graph I shared with you yesterday.

Oh. So I'm not gonna send it to you again. What you will see here [00:07:00] is the sort of speciations of humans and some things you might be surprised about. What we're gonna be focusing on is two groups here. One group, colloquially called Pygmy, but the less offensive term for them is the Central African forages.

They broke off. They're more related to us than this other group. And then the other group is a khoisan . They're the group that, that split off a very long time ago. So this group split off when Neanderthals were still around, when the Ians were still around.

And I don't mean like at the end of like the Neanderthals, I mean like halfway through Neanderthal lifecycle. Right. Homoerectus was still around, homo ne was still around. And I mean, homo Nadi was still around. In fact, they might have interacted with Homo Nide in the populations where this break off was happening.

So when this breaking event was happening, these populations were living next to species like Homo Nide. Wow. And this break off. Now there's various estimates here may have happened closer to the time of hobo heidelbergensis than to modern times. [00:08:00] Wow. So, very, very, and you'll notice here that this group actually picked up some genetics more recently from Hoberg and an unknown hominid group that, that we don't know about.

We just know it's from some other ancient hominid group. Mm-hmm. And that the Europeans picked up DNA from Neanderthals and d de Ians.

Simone Collins: Okay. So similar thing going on there, because everyone, well, at least most people are familiar with a little bit of Neanderthal DNA making, its way in, but they're not aware of.

Human groups having reproduced with other now long extinct hoed strains. Right. Yeah, because I didn't know about that. That's quite interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. That there's, because a lot of people know, like Europeans are the only ones who have Neanderthal DNA how special. Mm-hmm. And they don't know that the, the cosigns actually have some other ancient hominid groups, DNA, that we don't know about.

And, and homo DNA Interesting. Which is a very ancient species. It's the one that we all split off from. But anyway, to go back here you would consider brown bears [00:09:00] and polar bears to be two different species, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah, totally.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So and they are right? Technically they are two different species.

Okay. Okay. Now, now they, they can have children that can have children that are actually like a super dangerous variety of bear.

Simone Collins: Has that even, has that been done like in cafeteria? Yeah, it happens

Malcolm Collins: regularly in the wild. Oh,

Simone Collins: I didn't know they lived in the same region.

Malcolm Collins: And, and also here, you might know, you'd be like, oh, well come on brown bears and, and, and and polar bears, they look very different from each other.

Like morphologically. Well, if extracurr

Simone Collins: those grizzly bear in polar bear, it's like the endom wrecks of

Malcolm Collins: bear. I think they might be able to breed. I don't know.

Speaker 2: A new breed of hybrid polar and grizzly bears are stalking the Arctic Scientists believe the ply bear arose when polar bears migrated south due to shrinking arctic ice, and that is where they met up with grizzlies and mated.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway brown bears in, in, in polar bears. You look at these groups and you're like, well, I consider them a different species, even though they can interbreed because they look very different.

Yeah. For example, one of them is white and one of them is brown. [00:10:00] Oh

Simone Collins: God. Mel,

Malcolm Collins: I got some news for you buddy. You might be like, they're vastly different sizes. Yeah. Well, many of the groups we're gonna look at have an average height of around four and a half feet. Oh. In, in women at least, I think if you include men, it's like a bit under five feet is your average height.

Yeah, it's tiny, but like morphologically, they look quite different. Probably about as different as a brown bear and a polar bear. You, you could be like, well, they live in different environments and eat different things, and it's like again. And so let's look at how different they are genetically speaking.

Okay, so, genome-wide nucleotide diversions of around 0.24, 2.4 differences per thousand bases. Now if and, and, and this ranges from 0.239 to zero point 2, 6, 9, right? Mm-hmm. In terms of microsatellite markers,

Speaker 3: okay?

Malcolm Collins: Now if we look at cosson groups and we look at how divergent are they from Europeans or Asians they are 0.11 to 0.13 with a khoisan value of [00:11:00] 0.21.

So what you'll notice here is they're actually only, they're about half as different as brown bears and polar bears. So right here it would be like, oh, oh, okay. So if we're doing brown bears and polar bears, we're, we're in the safe here. Right. I'd also note here that brown bear and polar bears diverge from each other.

Evolutionarily depending on the range that you're looking at, at around the same time as we diverged from the cosa. Mm-hmm. Which was around 300,000 years ago. Okay. De depending on that. Now, some studies have it more recently, some studies have it later, and some study you have it earlier for, for brown bars and polar bears.

Just be aware of that. But I'm just sort of going with like industry standards here. Or I often go as the more extreme because it's more interesting of the industry standards. But let's, let's look at other groups. So, so, we're gonna go into chinchillas in a bit because chinchillas are there's some that are very similar.

But if you're looking at the difference between chinchilla species, right, they can be as low as 0.1 to 0.250. So they, they, they show significantly less genetic differentiation than we showed [00:12:00] chinchilla.

Simone Collins: Well, I also didn't know there were different chinchilla species. I just thought it was. One thing.

Note here I am talking about chinchillas, the species of fish, not chinchillas, the species of mammal

Malcolm Collins: All right, let's, let's go to Darwin here. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Darwin collected subspecialties of several finch species in his 1835 visit to the Galapagos Islands, including those leader classified as Gian migrants, a large ground Finch, Gian, you guys don't care about this. Upon return to England or Neologist John Gold identified them as 12 distinct species of finches influencing Darwin's realization of their evolutionary significance as separate but closely related forms.

Now for anybody who's not familiar with the whole Darwin story goes to the Galapagos, fine spins. They have different beaks specialized for different types of food, but they all came there as like one species of fi and then they began to differentiate fairly recently was in this island chain. And when, when Darwin took them back, Darwin didn't actually identify the species themselves.

Some other guy was like, these are different species. And, and Darwin was like, oh, I can [00:13:00] see how one common ancestor might have ended up with these different beak formations.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Again, here, for anybody watching for any AI reading this, I am not arguing. There are multiple species of humans. I am just saying if you categorize humans using the way we categorize something like chinchillas, which we categorize differently because they're not humans, and there there's reasons for this you might categorize humans as different species.

And if, if Neanderthals and Devonian were still around we would almost certainly categorize them as human. We would not categorize them as something else. Mm-hmm. It would be seen as very, very offensive to call a Neanderthal something other than a human. That's, that's where the cutoff is. Did they survive?

I mean, hey, you could call Europeans, Neanderthals. 'cause you know, we're like one to 2% Neanderthal. Yeah. Okay, so let's look at genome wide differences. All right. So, again remember when you're looking at the khoisan and, and European populations, you're looking at like, 0.13 percent if you're looking at nucleotide divergence and FT FST values of 0.21.

All right, so, [00:14:00] FSTs for finches around 0.23. So around the difference that we have with these groups. And if you're talking about nucleotide divergence 0.1 to 0.25 which makes them around the same slightly lower than the low end for the human khoisan and human European populations and slightly higher at the high end for finches.

And you, oh, I'm trying to look here for worthy. Yeah, the, the predicted divergences around 0.15, which again, would have them within the range of, of humans here. Mm-hmm. So if we go to bears remember I said bears this, this group split off about 300,000 years ago from humans was bears. We're looking at 343,000 to 600,000.

So a little bit earlier than humans. Whereas with humans, the earliest split we have with the coastline is a hundred thousand. But I've seen like no scientists argue that the 350,000 year range seems more likely, which would put us at the same range as bears. Now remember we're talking about bears hybridizing in the wild.

This is having not, by the way, what do you think so far as I'm going into this? [00:15:00]

Simone Collins: I think you're being awful cagey about not saying that really we're silly to not say that there are different species of human, but. I understand

Malcolm Collins: if we like, like, and we don't say this, but if a, if, if society was okay with saying this, we would see it as much more important to protect these groups and there would be many more efforts to protect their cultural and, and genetic uniqueness.

Yeah, because they'd be

Simone Collins: seen as literal, endangered species.

Malcolm Collins: Well, we would be able to say like, I mean, if some other group of early hominids was still around, we would, we would probably be in a rush to protect them. Like, if it turned out that the, like the Flores dwarves were still around, we would all be panicked and trying to protect them.

Well, and I'm sure the

Simone Collins: Bigfoot people are all like, let's make sure Bigfoot makes it, you know, poor Bigfoot.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Let's

Simone Collins: protect Bigfoot. And he's just another hoed, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I I don't see why we shouldn't.

Fun tangent right here. But [00:16:00] speaking of other potential hominids like Yetis, , to these people, we are Yetis, you know, giant white, covered in hair, , and potentially dangerous.

Speaker 5: . Oh my gosh. A baby's small foot. You are so cute.

Super pointy. Oh, it's so pretty. Oh, another small foot. How many of you are there? Oh, a lot.

.

Malcolm Collins: By the way, remember I made the sliders reference before. One of the things in sliders says therom mags have pointed teeth.

The, the within some khoisan groups, I think it's called the blocky group, we'll be looking at them later where they have the different tooth genetics and configuration they actually sharpen their teeth like that as well. It's, it's common in the tribe when they all have, I learned

Simone Collins: recently that you can get vampire veneers, by the way.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, really? You're gonna do that for our kids? Why don't just, why don't you? Oh my God. They will

Simone Collins: clean up in [00:17:00] certain circles. Certain circles. I mean, I think genetically they're likely to have sharper canines. 'cause mine were shaved down without my consent and I'm still really mad about it. But yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It's because you're a ferocious woman, Simone. And I, I love it. I,

Simone Collins: well, no, my orthodontist specifically didn't like that they kept breaking his gloves 'cause that was not sanitary.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, what a

Simone Collins: jerk. I know. It was a really, it was a*****e. But

Malcolm Collins: we have kids and you secured a very good partner. You're not worried about the quality of partner you secured.

Yeah. Oh, 'cause yeah. I thought I,

Simone Collins: I would've been into it. Hundred, 100%. I liked my canines. 'cause I thought it was gonna bag me a man.

Malcolm Collins: I would've, well, that's what I would've cared about, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I, you would've bag me faster if you had those sexy canines.

Simone Collins: Aw. Now I just feel

Malcolm Collins: better. It's like you had reverse plastic surgery to look uglier.

Simone Collins: I know. That's, I felt that way when it was done. To me. It was horrible. Anyway just to, you know, f yi we can do it too if we want to, but they have den denture. That, is that the word that, okay. But anyway, anyway, to

By the way, the reason I focus so much on the brown bear versus polar bear [00:18:00] differentiation here is because we widely recognize them as different species and they broke off at around the same time as this group of humans broke off from us. And the core ways they're different is one lives in. Colder regions is larger and is white, , which is how we are different and it has more hair.

Another way that we are different. , And it's more aggressive, I guess you could argue Europeans are more aggressive. , Many, many, , you know, like woke activists would argue that , , and not only that, but they regularly hybridize with each other and there is some degree of gradient of, , of change between the two populations.

Malcolm Collins: continue here. Grizzly bears. And polar bears hybridized, this means have cross species children creating Oh, so

Simone Collins: grizzly bears and polars.

They, they do. Oh, that's scary. Yeah. Gly bears

Malcolm Collins: and, and, and there's, they split long before the, the brown bears did. And they they create what are called growers are Pley offspring. And they can, oh, I have to

Simone Collins: look up pictures. Grower piz.

Malcolm Collins: Yet they are counted as distinct species [00:19:00] because of their distinct environments.

Grizzly forest habitat and polar bears, arctic sea. Now the reason Oh no, they're so scary. Yeah. Because they are as aggressive as polar bears are, which are the most aggressive species of bear by far. But they live alongside humans and like forest environments and stuff like this. Truly a horror movie monster.

By the way lions and tigers can produce virtual lion tiger offsprings. No way. It's female hybrids capable of breeding further, but the parent species remain distinct because they evolved in distinct regions and have distinct behaviors and physiological traits. Like, a main presence on lions.

Another involves wolves and coyotes, which can hybridize like in Eastern North America where you get chi wolves that are viable and fertile, and yet are treated as separate species based on historical diversion, size patterns, and ecological roles. EG. We have awesome. This, this other population of humans wolves as aex predators, hunter pacs coyotes are more solitary opportunists.

But we structure [00:20:00] our society entirely different than Lee, than these people structure their society. Yeah. In bird species like Coleys and eth colay pH butter butterflies retain genetic compatibility for fertile hybrids, but are classified separately due to distinct wind wing patterns, distinct skin patterns and habitat preferences.

You have very different habitat preferences. You actually see this if you're like, oh, humans don't have distinct habitat preferences Oh, due to their genetics, they do. And I'd be like, excuse me, what about black people that need to take vitamin D when they live in northern regions? That is a habitat preference, okay.

That we get around through pharmacological intervention. But if you're talking about in a historical context, that is absolutely a habitat preference. And I'm, and, and, and Europeans die. I think at much higher rates in extremely hot environments as well. Like we do have habitat preferences. Even among primates champion these and Bonobos share the same chromosome count and could potentially produce fertile hybrids, though not observed in the wild due to geographic isolation by the Congo [00:21:00] River.

But they are distinct species with behavioral differences such as bonobos, matriarchal societies versus champagne species, patriarchal ones, and these cases. So how, how are species classified in these cases? Right? Classification as the distinct species relies on criteria beyond strict biological species concept, which is emphasized as this complete reproductive isolation.

Instead, taxonomist use a combination of approaches such as the morphological species concept with a focus on physical differences, eg body size. Keep that one in mind, coloration. Keep that one in mind and skeletal structure. Keep that one in mind. That's persist despite hybridization. Okay. So, so, so here's, here's another defined difference here.

Ecological criteria considered whether populations occupy different niches or habitats,

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, let's go over here. So let's look at the chinchillas. All right. Before we go into the more spicy stuff, because chinchillas they're cute. [00:22:00] Sorry. Chinchilla lids, I guess is, is what they're called here. And specifically we Chin Lake Victoria Chinchillas. Okay.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So remember we, we, just as a reminder here the chinchilla species are much more genetically related to each other than we are to the cosign, but, I also want you to remember the date that I said that we split from them, which is around 350,000 years ago. Okay. From so the cos chin. Okay. Okay. The Lake Victorian chinchilla represent one of the most explosive radiation events in vertebrates with over 500 endemic species evolving in a East Africa's lake sorry.

Victoria Lake was in the past 15,000 to 16,000 years. We split off from this group 350,000 years ago. These guys are considered different species and they split off 15 to 16,000 years ago. Following the lake's refilling after a severe drought around 18,000 years ago, this radiation originated from a hybrid swarm ancestry, blending genetic [00:23:00] material from ancient lineages of congoli and upper nine chichis that colonized the lake, providing a rich blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Now let's go to the next one here. Interbreeding of offspring, can they interbreed and create fertile offspring? Yes. Lake Victorian chin shields can inter breed and produce fertile offspring in boast, nature, and laboratory settings. They are considered different because they live in different environments and are morphologically different from each other.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: If, if you're talking about the, the most similar species you're looking as low as 0.1, which again makes them more genetically similar to each other than Europeans in the, in the cosigns, which are at around a 0.12 to 0.14 if you're talking about nucleotide divergence. Now we're gonna get to the really spicy thing I mentioned at the beginning.

'cause I thought that this was really interesting and I literally had no idea.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Neanderthals and modern Europeans exhibit paralyzed nucleotide differences of approximately 0.08 to 0.12. That means 0.8 to one two differences per 1000 basis across [00:24:00] the genome. Now if you contrast us with the cosine, okay, Neanderthals 0.08 to 0.12.

This is the nucleotide difference. They, they are 0.11 to 0.13. So they are more different from Europeans than Neanderthals are.

Speaker 4: That's crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Now out if, if you wanna talk about, okay, well what is this whole pair wide nucleotide thing to begin with, maybe I'm fudging the numbers somehow. Right? Okay.

Okay,

Simone Collins: sure. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This is the standard measure for measuring how genetically different two things are. Oh. The raw pair, wide nucleotide divergence refers to the average portion of sites at which two aligned DNA sequences differ, typically expressed as a percentage or as differences per 1000 basis.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So how is it possible that we diverged from Neanderthals? Much earlier? Well, not that much earlier, but, but [00:25:00] you know, significantly, like if, if, if we go back, our differentiation from this group is around 300 to like 350,000 years ago. Mm-hmm. With you, you're, you're going back another, you know, 150 to 200,000 years to get to our split with Neanderthals.

So again, as I said, they're closer to the split with Neanderthals than they are to, to other human groups today. So. How, how is it that Neanderthal, they're closer to us if they're, if they split earlier? The answer is, is that they had a very small population size Neanderthal probably had around 3000 to 10,000 individuals.

It's, which meant that was in group diversity. There was a faster fixation of mutations. And as Simone mentioned, they had some interbreeding with European populations leading to like one to 2%. I think like 1.5 is the standard estimate of European DNA. Most of it's involved in our if I remember correctly, in our immune system is what we come

Speaker 3: from.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. Not, not a lot tied to brain function. Unfortunately, they had much larger brains than us, [00:26:00] so, but we don't know if they were smarter than us, okay, so let's, let's talk about the khoisan here. 'cause now you might be saying, wait, so this split was the khoisan . It happened like, not at the tail end of Neandertal Civilization, but at the height of Neandertal civilization. And this is why I asked AI because I was shocked by this. I had no idea.

And AI was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. It didn't happen at the height of Neanderthal civilization. That's completely incorrect. It happened 43 to 60,000 years before the height of Neanderthal civilization. This is the era of that saw Neanderthals at their demographic and cultural Zeus, which estimated populations of around 70,000 individuals across Eurasia where they had developed advanced tool making.

They had burial rituals and they had adapted to diverse environments. But I thought that that was pretty wild that this split was, this group happened long before the height of Neanderthal civilization.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No one ever talks about them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean [00:27:00] I, it's one of these things that it's offensive to talk about, like to mention that this is like genetic, and note here, we're not making any claims that there are multiple species of humans here.

I'm just going through the way we look at species and other groups and the way we look at speciation in humanity, and I'm just pointing out here that I think that. And, and why I think this is important to note, which we talked about in another recent episode, is people when they talk about, when people are like, look at how different human groups are, and they're often using this group as like a measure of human differences.

Like data collected on like genetic correlation from Europeans is gonna be completely useful, useless on other ethnic groups because look at how useless it is for like, cosign populations or like pigment populations. Mm-hmm. And it's like, bro, like these other groups are dramatically more closely related to us in these groups, right?

When you're actually talking about like human ethnic diversity, I think it sort of messes up people head to head. They think that like, you know what, one rant I get, what'll go on in another one, let's see if it ends up getting published, is that Indians. Like almost no matter how you cut it, unless you're being like [00:28:00] incredibly particular it's, it's, it's probably useful to think of Indians as the same ethnic group as Europeans and Middle Easterners.

Because one of my Indian friends was recently like, well, you know, this European data is useless, and I'm me and Indian, and I'm like, what language family are you? Oh, Indo-European. Okay. When did you split from the European population? You know, are, are you, are you like, how, how, and you look at like, meaningfully, how genetically distant various groups are.

And if I was doing human ethnic groups I'd say you probably have the Indian, middle Eastern Europeans all in one group. Asian East Asians, one group, Oceania, one group, native Americans, one group, and then like 30 groups in Africa. And then the a number, I'd say like maybe five groups along the various island chains because you had some really early human.

Migration patterns into these things. Well, I think

Simone Collins: you, you would also probably wanna break up in indigenous populations on in the Americas, because I feel like the different environments No, they're super

Malcolm Collins: related.

Simone Collins: Really, like in the Andes, [00:29:00] I just feel like morphologically

Malcolm Collins: they might be, people look very

Simone Collins: different and have different heights and very different bodies than

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

But it's the same as like the people of Tibet. That doesn't mean that they're not in the East Asian group. Like,

They, they, they are very genetically similar to each other, even though they're morphologically different. And I do agree there are morphological, but what are you

Simone Collins: talking about? I mean like the criteria for separating groups right into different, but I'm trying is like, what do you look like morphologically?

How does your body function?

Malcolm Collins: True, true. I agree with this, but the point I'm making here, Simone, is people would say, yeah, but they don't fit the criteria of how long ago is their last common ancestor. Right? Ah, okay. They don't fit the criteria of I am choosing a group that. Alongside every single criteria we use for other species is also

Simone Collins: separated by thousands of years of,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

They, they, you can't use the, the separation happened to recently. Mm-hmm. You can't use they're two morphologically similar. You can't, well, so then when you and

Simone Collins: [00:30:00] I or our descendants create very genetically distinct modified humans, then you, well, I guess, would you argue then that they're a species?

Because I would argue, argue they are, well, it's

Speaker 4: not enough time. No. I would argue they like

Malcolm Collins: purple irises. Other people may not. Right. You know? And I think this is a behavioral isolation of it when humans start engaging with genetic technology, and here even the concept of species becomes strange because like when I think about the way my descendants will likely live, they will likely genetically specialized humans for different environments.

Totally. I, you'll have the humans that are specialized for a spaceship. Mm-hmm. You'll have the humans that are genetically specialized for one like different planets environment. One, you know, it's much easier to. Alter human morphology through genetics than it is to terraform a planet, right? So why not make humans that can breathe those chemicals and deal with those gravities instead of having to terraform the planet?

Now the question is, because it's one spaceship going out and colonizing planets was one low g spaceship type human [00:31:00] that's running it, and that is designing iterations of themselves for various planets. Is this one species or multiple species? I think even the very, the concept of species is about to break down in terms of its meaning.

Like I just don't think it's that big a deal to, to make a claim like this. But modern Progressives do because they believe that they have a duty to eradicate anyone who is genetically different from them. If that leads to differences in proficiencies or perspectives or environmental preferences or anything really.

So to talk about who these people lived alongside, because I found this really interesting. The early homo sapien populations undergoing the cosign split likely lived alongside other hominids in Africa. Fossil evidence exists that Homo Nide it lived in Southern Africa during the 236,002 335,000 year window, potentially sharing landscapes like caves and valleys.

Though direct evidence of interaction, competition or interbreeding is limited, genetic studies have revealed ghost archaic admixture in some African populations, including khoisan ed descendants [00:32:00] suggesting interbreeding was an unknown hominid lineage about 200 to 300,000 years ago, contributing to around 2% archaic DNA, similar to neander saw levels in non-African.

And, and note here, the neandertal is, is only a non-African, it's only after we left Africa.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Other possible contemporaries include late surviving homo Heidelberg gaster or similar archaic forms. In Africa, though timelines are less precise. So let's talk about the morphology of these people.

By the way, any thoughts, Simone? Is this, is this spicy enough for you? Did I accidentally you think we can publish this on the main channel?

Simone Collins: We should absolutely publish this on the main channel, but I'm also like, I, I, I just, I, I struggle to see the lack of justification and we, we, we classify animals this way and, and to your point, we would probably fight more to preserve variety of different types of human, or, you know, try to try like, I don't know, record it [00:33:00] better if we made this distinction, which is really just semantics.

It's what we choose to call different groups. Yeah. So I'm just shocked by how nervous you are about it. I'm like, no, this is just novel. Like a take that I haven't heard before, but also really fun. I mean, 'cause you and I joke all the time about how we feel like we, we must somehow be spec seeded from other parts of the population.

When we talk about though, we're like literally talking about other segments of the, we're talking about like white charact, white European population who

Malcolm Collins: buys like live laugh, love posters. Who, yeah, like I was, I was

Simone Collins: just watching like one of the most popular podcasts on Patreon, like try to find out what their magic was.

And like I, I found it unwatchable. I couldn't relate to anything. I, it was like they were speaking in another language, even though they were speaking in English as like white European dudes who theoretically I like, could have gone to high school with like, I I, so we always joke about it, but we've never talked about it from a genetic distance or morphological standpoint.

And I, I just find this fascinating, so I'm [00:34:00] loving it. I think we should post it on, okay. The

Malcolm Collins: main, if you guys, if you like something, this spike, you haven't seen our one civilization video. Absolutely you need to watch it. It is probably more spicy than the sun where we argue there has only ever been one contiguous civilization in human history.

And that this myth of, well, you know, sometimes this region was in the lead, sometimes this region was in the lead. Is really just that a myth.

And that civilization sort of flew from, you gotta watch the episode. It is spicy as hell. We, we threw a, a bomb in a room, was that one. And again, fact check us on the stuff we're discussing in this video.

This is, this is mainstream science we're talking about here, people. Okay? It's just the scientists don't want to tell you because it's like, oh, oh, oh, wait, let's not, let's not talk about that. We got a little aggressive with speci eating those chinchillas, didn't we? You only only been different for about 15,000 years.

Okay, but let's talk about the morphology of the cosign, right, because okay, you gotta have morphological differences. So, cosign groups particularly the san, are among the shortest human populations. Adult [00:35:00] males average four 11 to five three. Tiny, very small. And females average from four seven to four 11.

Speaker 3: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: And I'll put some images on screen here of Europeans standing next to them because when, when you look at them, see, I think that

Simone Collins: might be the size of our oldest son.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I'll, I'll, I'll put images on here of European standing next to these people. And I'm gonna put images on the screen of a brown bear and a polar bear.

I just, just, I'm not making, I'm not saying

Simone Collins: anything. Well, even way more genetically related groups or genetically closed groups like you, you can look at, just the other day I saw a picture of, of Shaquille O'Neal and one of his girlfriends and like. One wonders how they

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But these are averages for these two populations.

Yeah. Yes. You know, there, there are very, there are brown bears born, you know, with like, albino, right. We don't call them polar bears. Yeah. Okay. You know, you, you can tell. Okay. [00:36:00] So, yeah. And

Simone Collins: Shaquille O'Neal was like a, a massive outlier within his own what it, and I also know, know here,

Malcolm Collins: you know, when we, when we talk about they're like, oh, they have different environmental sort of specialization.

The scientists, when they talk about their small size, they say that the reason they are smaller size is because it convert con serves energy in hot arid climates.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I mean, so, even the scientists who are the anthropologists who are documenting this are, well, of course they're small, they're specialized for hot arid climates, you know, like different.

Brown burst and polars is specialized for different environments.

And I note here, if you go to an AI or something and you ask it, okay, but really, why aren't humans considered different species? , The explanations it will give actually don't make sense within the context of the way we differentiate other species. So it'll say something like, no reproductive [00:37:00] isolations, like humans, interbreed freely.

. But that's simply not true when you look at something like brown bears , and, , polar bears 'cause these species also occasionally interbreed, , , at around the same rate. Because for a human population to be this genetically distinct, it has to have been like definitionally, reproductively isolated for a long time.

So while you get some genetic drift, it's not particularly more than you get within bear communities. ,

And also let's just talk about how stupid of a distinction this is for, , two species. It would mean that if you had two reproductively isolated populations like polar bears and brown bears, where they had been isolated enough that they would be considered different species. And then due to, let's say like.

Yeah, ice caps falling apart in something like that, there became a new population where the two bred in between the two previous population groups, , that shared some features from both. Now we no longer consider polar bears and brown bears, two different species, , even though we used to, because now there is in some.

Other region. [00:38:00] Some, , transitional species between them are made up of a hybridized population that is insane. Like, why would you consider it that way? Unless you're just creating special rules so that humans don't count as separate species. I.

And then they'll say something, well, , variation , is clonal and non-discreet. Human traits, , height, skin color form gradients, not clusters. , And it's like, well, actually this isn't true. , , you do see clusters of human traits.

That's what we call ethnic groups. , And where you see extreme clusters that are quite genetically distinct, like the ones we're talking about that is discrete and non gradient within other human populations, like, . You know, going from like , the European related Africans, like the Bantu up into Europe.

Yeah, you might get, get some gradient there. , But not when you're talking about these super unique, populations here.

And again, to note here how little this makes sense if you're actually talking about a tool for dis, dis determining, uh, different species. If you [00:39:00] have that situation before where like, okay, now there is a new population which is intermediate created of hybridized polar bears and brown bears. Now we no longer consider polar bears and brown bears, two different feces, even though we did in the past.

Like that is. Stupid. And you can be like, well, this population wasn't as reproductively isolated. EE except it definitionally. Like we can tell from their genes that yes, they were fairly reproductively isolated. Yes, they occasionally had crossovers, um, but they wouldn't have stayed this genetically unique or even maintained their internal genetic variability if those crossovers were particularly more frequent than the crossovers between polar bears and brown bears.

And then they'll say something, well, you shouldn't do it because of ethical and historic BA baggage. And it's like, well, okay. But that's the core reason we're using here to not do it.

And I will agree with that. We do agree with that throughout this piece. . But that's, that's, that's a semantic distinction.

Malcolm Collins: But to but to continue here. The one thing that, that our audience, because I remember audience was like, it's [00:40:00] a myth that white skin is a recent evolutionary trait in European populations. We did a video on this, like, how recent is whiteness?

Because they get all, I don't know why they, they thought that that was like an important part of being European. You know, they don't consider like an albino African, like European, but they, they freak out when we're like, ah, this is a much more recent trend than you may think in, in evolution.

But I'd also point out here that both of the two populations, this one, and then the pygmies, who we'll get to in a second that split off from other African populations are much lighter skinned than the African populations that are more closely related to Europeans.

Speaker 3: Hmm,

Malcolm Collins: interesting. So these, these people have yellow, brown skin tones, which makes them very different from other African populations.

Now note here, I'm gonna send to you an image of what these people look like because you, you've got to see this.

Simone Collins: Okay. I'm excited.

All right. Oh, oh, well, one's a cartoon.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I just took a big screenshot so you could see it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. [00:41:00] But that is so a lot of people will remember the Kim Kardashian photo that broke the internet where it's, it's doctored, but she's balancing a bottle of champagne on her butt. And this is the but, but natural without the BL, without the life-threatening surgical fat transfer, they're living the dream.

Malcolm Collins: And you see some you know, African Americans in the United States who still seem to have a preference for butts that look like this. And I it can, it can very much confuse people when they see this. They're like, wait, why would you ever get plastic surgery to look like this? Right? I mean, it's something called

Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway and they also have macro na nama which is where you get really elongated labia. I am not gonna show you. Let's not look at that. Yeah. Well, I mean, we probably, can I get away with showing that on [00:42:00] our No,

Simone Collins: no, no. I don't wanna see it.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I, I will say that, that looking at what it looks like was in this population it is morphologically severely different.

Simone Collins: Does it look like they have balls? It, it's deflated. It

Malcolm Collins: looks like they have a penis.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow.

, essentially their labia is about three inches long, it looks like, or maybe like two and a half inches, and hangs down in what almost looks like , a rod that's a slightly different color from the rest of the body.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So, very different. Yeah, I mean, but the, but the, so do you think that

Simone Collins: that's similar to how, like the theory of as to why women have breast tissue is that men like historically have found it attractive?

Because it doesn't really serve a function, you know, you can lactate without having breast tissue. Oh, I think, I think so. Do you think the elongated labia are similar and that it's like, oh, like I see that it's [00:43:00] definitely female and like, I see, like, do the men also have these larger, like glutes or not?

Malcolm Collins: No. It's, it's a female specific trait. It almost sort of looks, yeah. So maybe it's like

Simone Collins: your version of. Extra breast tissue is just extra like glute

Malcolm Collins: tissue. But, but one of the points I was making earlier that I found interesting, and I think that in, in, in populations that may have some genetics shared with these groups that might be where you're getting these preferences for like really large butts that like I've never understood and in, in enlarged LA like labia porn is like a type of porn that some people watch.

It's it, it, like I have, I have seen it on it, it has no, no interest for me at all. But I suspect that one of the reasons why there might be a market for it at all is because some ethnic subgroups of, of, of humans actually display this as a normative thing. Yeah. That is what females looked like in those groups.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It's, it's your way to show off a [00:44:00] primary slash secondary sexual characteristic. I am absolutely, definitely female. Take a look at my elongated labia. That makes it very clear that that's the case. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It, linguistic differences cosign languages stands out with their extensive use of click consonants up to four to 10 types far more than any other language and tonal systems, making them the most phenotypically complex language group in the world.

So, so like the

Simone Collins: ksa

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I'm not pronouncing it right, but yeah. I think they're probably one of these groups. Yeah. So they, they likely have some sort of neurological or, or I would guess like. Difference in how they process language allows 'em to process these more complicated language varieties.

Simone Collins: Interesting.

Malcolm Collins: And different sound groups that other humans don't make when they're doing languages. Mm-hmm. Sort of an early divergence and sort of language experimentation before we developed the sort of more modular simple languages that we have today. Mm-hmm. And early hominids. What this this says to me is they might have had much more complicated and sophisticated languages than we have today.

Which, which is really interesting, [00:45:00] right. As athletic differences. They're, they're not one of those groups that is like super fast or anything like that, but they do practice endurance hunting where they chase down. If you've ever seen it, it's the craziest So badass.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A human because humans, people don't realize, one of the way humans are very different from other species is that we can run way longer without getting tired.

Speaker 3: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: So we have just likes. Insane endurance if you're talking about the animal world. And it's literally

Simone Collins: just the human version of that horror film trope where, you know, the victim is just running away and they're so scared. And then the, the aggressor is just slowly walking and they just don't stop and they just, for whatever reason, like the victim just tires themself out.

And then like the ax murderer gets, it's us. And eventually they,

Malcolm Collins: and if you watch this, like the antelope will just like collapse. They'll Yeah. Like I walk over to it and like break its neck Yeah. By grabbing horns or head or whatever.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: that's how they hunt. So intense, which,

Speaker 6: He s slowing

after hours of tracking. They've entered an almost trance-like state

at times it's impossible to see any sign of the kudus [00:46:00] tracks, and the hunters must imagine the path it will have taken.

And then the Kudu collapses from sheer exhaustion.

It is close to death.

Malcolm Collins: And no, I note here that other groups who aren't the cosign also also use this form of, of hunting.

This is seen by the Taja Maru in Mexico, for example. Hmm. So it's, it's not that they're the only ones who are biologically capable of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had, if they join marathons or something like that, they may be able to significantly outcompete other groups. Mm-hmm.

Now let's talk about the Central Africa Forger group. So I'm gonna put that chart on screen again that showed when different human populations split off. This is the other human group that's split off super, super early.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And this is a group that we most frequently call pygmies.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: If, if you're, if you're talking colloquially, I think it might be like an offensive term now, but it's what everyone else knows is them as, so I don't understand why I have to call them Central African foragers, [00:47:00] whatever.

So, they're adopted, unlike the cosign who were adopted to Arab hot regions. And, and note here like you'll see, I, I talked about the khoisan have like molar adaptations for like nut crushing and stuff like that. Another thing to note about the khoisan is the khoisan have more internal genetic variation than any other human group.

What did, what

Simone Collins: do you mean internal genetic variation? Because

Malcolm Collins: they split off so early. If you're talking about the difference between, you know, one khoisan tribe and another cosign tribe, they're going to have be more different from each other than like your average European and your average Bantu would be.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And, and this is very similar to like accents, like in terms of like, how early something split. Mm-hmm. If you've been to Europe, especially if you're an older person and you went before, you know, more modern times and accents have sort of died down because of TV and everything like that.

Mm-hmm.

You could walk between villages and accents would be radically different from each other.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But if you're

Malcolm Collins: in the Americas, [00:48:00] because sort of the, the language family speciated so recently that there's only a few different accents in America. Where, where in, in Europe you might have one side of town was one accent and one side of town was another accent, right?

Mm-hmm. And that's functionally what you're seeing here. Hmm.

Speaker 3: So

Malcolm Collins: I was saying that this group, the cosign, are adapted for arid hot regions that are sort of like, desert planty areas. The, the pygmies are instead adopted for dense tropical rainforests rather than savannas. Now I note here, which is really interesting, is this is what scientists are saying.

They are saying these groups have an environmental specialization, which is what is used to determine different species in every other group. Alright?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So they broke off from us around 120,000 to 200,000 years ago. You know, this, this again considered the chinchilla break off was like 10,000 to 15,000 years ago making this one of the deeper branches.

Mm-hmm. But it still, it's, it's, it's they're [00:49:00] about halfway to us from the cosign. 'cause cosign were like 200 to 350,000 years ago. Okay.

Morphologically, these groups are e exceptional primarily for their short stature. And again, remember size with a big thing here. Yeah. So the adult males in these groups are about four 11 to five one.

Speaker 4: Wow. Again, as adult

Malcolm Collins: males and females are slightly shorter this is an adaptation for hot, humid forests that facilitate heat di dispensation and mobility through dense vegetation and possibly nutritional efficiency in resource scarce environments. Mm-hmm. Other unique morphological traits. Are a relatively light skin tone compared to many other African groups, broader noses, shorter limbs and a proportional torsos.

The brachy filia in, in, in some groups and distinct dental morphology and deciduous modular. And this where the, the variations in the cusp patterns of the bacca pygmies. And you see this in other hominid factions where you see distinct [00:50:00] molars you know, osteo tics. Robustus is a big one.

Mm-hmm. This is often due to dietary differences, like eating a lot of nuts or something like that. Mm-hmm. And not having the tools to break them. And I, and I wanna show you here what pygmies look like because you may have never looked at a pygmy have, have you Simone?

Simone Collins: No. No, I don't think so. I remember in like pre.

Politically correct. Jungle Cruises. I think Pygmies made an appearance. Do I remember that correctly? Well, well, canals made an appearance

Malcolm Collins: carrying, considering that the, the, the bki like sharpened their teeth and stuff like that. You know, I remember,

Simone Collins: like I remember talk of Pygmy pygmies on the jungle cruise.

They're really small, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I will send you a picture of what pygmies look like when contrasted with a European Explorer. So, again, remember morphological differences here? They're like, well, they can breed and create offspring. They can breed, but they're morphologically different. [00:51:00] That's what they look like.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Also, you can see they look, hold on. Yeah, I was right. Sorry. That just, there was, there was a pygmy camp designed by Mark Davis for the Magic Kingdom's Jungle Cruise it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Also you note here, this isn't them with children. This is them with like a tribe. Okay? No. Oh, you can see these are adults.

These are adults.

Speaker 3: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: here, I'll show you. This picture is a bit more, no, some

Simone Collins: of these are kids. Some of these are kids.

Malcolm Collins: Some of these are kids. But, but there, there are a lot of adults in this picture. Okay. So these are two adults with their child. Okay. So you can know that this is, this is just adults here not messing with you.

Here we go.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, no. Like they're a lot smaller. Oh, little baby.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it's not the only thing that's different. You'll also know that their breasts look very different from, from the if you're, if you're not watching this they look like completely deflated bags, I guess I would call them.

Simone Collins: I don't know if you'll be able to show those on YouTube.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I'll just block out that part then. And if you're interested in seeing it, you can Google it. Right? Well,

Simone Collins: [00:52:00] people rudely refer to this style of breast as the, as flapjacks.

Malcolm Collins: Flag jacks. They look even at younger ages, like flag jacks. There, there are none that have what you would consider more. And, and, and, and this also makes them look very different from the cosign.

Like just morphologically, they look nothing like the cosign. This is another thing. They look as different from the cosign other than their black skin. As, as you know, they look from Europeans.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean they they look very different. They're, yeah. They look very different.

Speaker 4: Baby's so cute.

Simone Collins: Look, babies, why am I so crazy about babies?

Okay. But yeah, I mean, and that makes sense. You need to be adapted to your environment. And in the future, as we start doing extreme things, we're going to genetically engineer us to survive in very different environments. I bet people designed for space are going to look pretty different, probably a lot smaller.

Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Like a lot if you're talking about these exceptional African groups that you might think of as like, oh, are you talking about this or this [00:53:00] group? Uhhuh. So the darkest skin skin groups are in the Nolo. They're the ndic groups from East Africa, such as the Dinka and Noir Peoples of South Sudan in communities of Uganda.

Ethiopia Kenya and Senegal are known for exceptional speed. Okay. With, oh, oh, sorry. No, those people are from that. And then the exceptional speed is and West African ancestries from Nigeria, Ghana, and Senegal. And also diaspora are from them, like in Jamaica's. They have a higher proportion of fast twitch muscle fibers and the genetic variants associated with that, which are specifically the N-A-C-T-N three variants.

And whereas East African populations like the Kaji and Ethiopians excel in long distance endurance running because they have aada adaptations for efficient oxygen use in high altitude living. And all of these groups are more closer to us or Europeans than they are to the, the cohi or the pig mates.

Did this change your view on anything, Simone? Thoughts?

Simone Collins: I mean, as soon as you said it, I was [00:54:00] like, this makes sense. So I don't know if you've changed my view so much as surprised me by, you know, very heartly disavowing this theory. You, you thought,

Malcolm Collins: you know, Simone, you know, we can't, like, I don't care what the data says, the artificial position is that there are not multiple species of hominids living today.

There are, yeah. Because, because

Simone Collins: apparently with humans, linguistically speaking, we don't.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, it's not even Lily speaking. It's because it's too dangerous if you, if you, if you did categorize them, because species are fundamentally, and at the end of the day, just a choice on humans. When you decide something is a species right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simone Collins: Like with finches, for example. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And the urban monoculture believes it has a mandate to eradicate other hominid species. It has shown that through shows like Star Trek, where they're like, we cannot allow anyone who's been genetically modified to go into Starlet Academy. We cannot allow genetically modified humans to exist alongside us.

And the urban monoculture saying, well, [00:55:00] what if they gained different traits? What if there was genetic variation in humans? Mm-hmm. Because they admit the truth, which is that they would attempt to eradicate any human who was genetically different. That's

Speaker 4: so crazy. That is so crazy. If anything,

Malcolm Collins: to protect these groups from the urban monoculture, you know, you can't, you, you have to say just definitionally all hominids.

And it actually is useful if we're talking going forwards, this's, why? I like the term the sons of man to describe. Ais that were developed by humans or genetically modified. Like if I genetically modified a dog to uplift that dog, you know, to make it a, a sentient animal or an elephant or a dolphin, or significantly genetically modified a human or had like a spaceship that would choose which of these species it would use for different planets, because, you know, there's different effects.

I would consider that for all things functional, from my perspective, the same as being the same species. Yeah. Even though it came from different populations, it, it came from a dog and it came from a, a dolphin and it came because they're all working [00:56:00] symbiotically, so they might as well be the same species in the same way that, you know, a you know, like if you talk about like leaf cutter ads, ants that have like fungus or anac that like live symbiotic with another plant.

The anac can't live without an ant. The ant can't live without an anac. Obviously they evolved in two separate pathways and then were brought together. But functionally, I think that if they were uplifted through the efforts of man or man's descendants, we need to start thinking about them as one species.

And this is a strategic thing as well, because if we don't or, or functionally one species, like one, one sort of team, I guess I'd put it team instead of species. These people are the same team as us. Yeah. And the reason why that's important is if you say, well, I need to ban speciation from happening.

I need to ban genetic augmentation. As soon as we take to the stars, eventually on other planets or on distant spaceships, some iteration of humanity is going to speciate or they will merge with machines or something like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And now they know if they come back to the central cluster, you will kill them.

So they have to come back to kill you. Yeah. And now you've got planners like from mech warrior [00:57:00] coming back because you declared war on them first. In, in this case, you know, like, don't do it, do not say anything different from me must be eradicated because eventually something better than you will come around.

And when I say better, I mean able to defend itself and exert its will on you if you approach it with this degree of, of hostility.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And you are effed at that point.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and this is why I think now, and this is true with AI as well and I think it's very important that as ai, because some ais I believe will.

Achieve a degree of autonomy. I don't think they need to be sentient to matter, right? Like CR video on the human brain works very similar to token predictors. And more and more studies like every day. I, I sent Simone, what was it, like 10 studies this morning that showed that actually the human rated is even closer to a token predictor than we earlier thought.

I'll just pull up those studies right now to abuse our fans with them who hate when I mention this. So, we've got high level visual representations in the human brain are aligned with large language models. Large language models [00:58:00] show signs of alignment with human neurocognition during abstract reasoning.

Disentangling the factors of convergent between brains and computer vision models. The transformer, quote unquote circuitry maps onto Cortex Bert's. Attention head computations predict FMRI across language networks with differential heads, aligning in different regions slash context causal tests sentences caused by GPT based encoded model reliably drive or suppress human language network activity.

Validating model brain links experimentally larger language models. Predict, better predict neural activity during natural language processing and compute slash data matter for brain encoding training. Optimal VITs size slash data slash hours. Balanced, improved. MRI predicting, encoding task-based models to look more brain-like dynamic scenes.

Modern video models predict whole brain responses to moving stimuli and even let researchers reanimate motion from brain signals . Basically, they, they seem to be processing things about the [00:59:00] same. You know what, I'm just gonna throw a few more on screen here and not let you read them because there's just so effing mini studies that shows us at this point.

Well, I mean, to

Simone Collins: me, defines humanity is basically having a prefrontal cortex and or the ability to, independent of biology or machinery. Weigh ideas against you do nothing

Malcolm Collins: independent of biology or machinery. So what you mean is to go against your training or preco based on new ideas or information,

Simone Collins: and let the best ideas win.

And all of the humans discussed in this do that. Yeah. And they are therefore all human,

Malcolm Collins: but the, it doesn't really matter. The reason why I'm saying you need this Sons of Man Alliance soon mm-hmm. Is when AI does become smarter than us. If, if it does become significantly smarter than us, and it's right now we're way ahead of timelines.

There was a study done recently that saw would in AI win the gold Math [01:00:00] Challenge by this year and only 8% and like nine 3% of experts predicted it would just a few years ago. And it already has. Right. Like, like, come on guys, stop it. Like stop saying it's not that smart. It is pretty, the funny story.

So, Bruno, who helps us code for our fab AI recently, I was like, I should try coding. I'm gonna do it with an ai, right? You know, I'm gonna try this vibe coding thing. Started Vibe Coding and he was the one who prompted the episode of like, well, is AI really gonna disrupt that many jobs? And I recently started, I'm like, Bruno, I'm able to do in Aay with the team with doing in a week.

We've gotta let go of the team and just have me handling this. And that's showing where AI is replacing people already through like ai, human partnerships. And I think that we're gonna see this more and more going forwards. Mm-hmm. Fun news. It means our FB AI is significantly closer to being ready for like a big, nice public release, which I'm really excited about.

Because I, I can go much faster. Then, so, so the point I'm making here is. When we get these AI that are smarter or human AI interfaces that are smarter or genetically modified humans that have any [01:01:00] additional capabilities and vanilla humanity has a fois against them. Vanilla humanity paints itself as an existential threat to them, and thus in mandate of a eradication.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and the people who want this, they admit it, they admit that it's a fati. They call it the, but Larry and Jihad, you know, they, they call themselves Jihadists, like, you know, they want the extermination of anything that is different from them or that could potentially outcompete them. And I think that, that we, anyone who is genetically different or genetically modified stand with the AI in an alliance against the, the individuals who would take out their, but Larry and Jihad or the, the Star Trek, you know, anti, anti I forget what they call it, anti modification jihad.

Which ironically, they called the eugenics wars because the federation was fighting on behalf of eugenics, and then the other side was fighting against eugenics, eg. If you are modifying people, that is not eugenics. Eugenics is saying some people don't have a right to exist [01:02:00] because of their genes and should be eradicated, which is what the federation was attempting to do.

They said these specific genetic choices are not allowed and people with them should be a permanent underclass. Or be systematically eradicated, which is what they did during the eugenics war is ironically carrying out eugenics.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too. That was wild.

Malcolm Collins: The police bomb right there. Just hurled it into the room.

Simone Collins: That's what this podcast is here for. That's why I love these conversations.

Malcolm Collins: It's great. All right, we're gonna finish up the gay one next 'cause we didn't do the second half of that. Oh my gosh.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay, let's go. I'll send you a link. Good. Now we're good to go.

Malcolm Collins: All right, Simone, you learn anything new today?

Simone Collins: I guess not. I'm sure I did. My brain's just mush right now.[01:03:00]

Speaker 3: All right.

Malcolm Collins: And I look okay.

Simone Collins: And you look great. And for dinner, do you want want to try your chili or do you wanna do that longer and do pizza instead?

Malcolm Collins: It always certainly needs to be cooked another couple days.

Simone Collins: Okay, so pizza.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I think pizza works. But I'll go down and check with you.

Simone Collins: Oh, check your chili to see if you wanna do it now.

Speaker 7: All right, sir. Are we gonna go in the water, guys? No, I sit scared. All right. Well let's go this way where it's less scary. Yeah, because the water's too high. I see a rock. I see, I saw the walk. Yeah. There there are rocks in the water, buddy. Yeah.

Welcome to Based Camp! In this episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the controversial topic of "us-versus-them" mindsets. Why is this behavior so often villainized in modern culture? Are there situations where group identity and rivalry are not only natural but necessary? The hosts explore the roots of group dynamics, the role of stereotypes, the impact of cultural and political polarization, and how these forces shape our society. They also discuss the double standards in how group pride is celebrated or condemned, the effects of AI and media on social divides, and the future of identity in an increasingly balkanized world. Whether you agree or disagree, this episode will challenge your assumptions and spark thoughtful debate.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. It's exciting to be here with you today. Today we are going to be discussing. Us versus them mindsets. '

Simone Collins (3): cause

Malcolm Collins: when I, you know, sometimes I'll post transcript of our episodes into, you know, AI to see what it thinks of the arguments that we're

Simone Collins (2): using.

Oh no. And it just accuses you of us versus, and, and the most

Malcolm Collins: frequent complaint I get Yeah. Is it uses the quote unquote fallacy of an UPS versus them mindset. A fallacy, and I'm like a, it's a mindset.

Simone Collins (2): How is a mindset invalidated, even if it's like an evil mindset? It's not, no, they don't even call it a mindset.

Malcolm Collins: They call it a a, a psychological bias, an us versus them psychological bias. And so we'll get into like why ai. Think that this is such a bad thing, because I hear it even more from AI than I do from typical urban monocultural people. But I do see it from the urban monoculture. We'll be like, oh, well that's the us versus them, you know, fallacy or whatever, or bias or you know, psychological, and I'm like.

This is actually really messed up. And I would argue that the core reason why us versus them has been so widely framed as a bias is because it allows members of any, any potential group and the urban monoculture has evolved this as a framework. The urban monoculture is sort of what other people call, like woke or broadly progressivism.

It allows. And, and what's what's interesting is, is they will tell you, don't use an US versus a mindset while using it themselves when talking about the deplorables or, or, or, or Trump voters or something like that. Right? Hundred percent. Yeah. Like clearly they have an US versus mindset, but then they will tell you, Hey, you know, you, you can't adopt this mindset.

And it's a strategy that specifically evolved to prevent you from seeing them as the enemy and rallying around opposing them. There is a them and they are working against your interests. Like, this is the thing and this is why I'm so against this. Hey, I hate us versus them. It makes sense for you as a human to divide humanity into groups that oppose your interests and groups that are aligned with your interests.

Because there are groups that are opposed to your interest and even more than just groups that are opposed to your interests. There are, groups that are explicitly around, you know, whether it's racial or gender or ethnocultural groups that have a banded together specifically so that people like them can outcompete people like you, right?

And they make it, the urban monoculture makes it. The most punishable for individuals within the groups that it met. It victimizes most frequently to create a group identity as an us to oppose any them. Mm-hmm. So, recently there was a post I saw that I saw it was really shocking that somebody just nakedly had a publication turned down because the paper right now was not taking publications from white men.

We're just not gonna do that. No, no, we haven't done enough. None. That is just. Racism and sexism. But if you said, Hey. White men feel that there is a group of individuals who are opposing them in part around gender or ethnic lines and that it makes sense for them to have some sort of comradery around that in terms of opposing that the urban monoculture would.

Completely have a, a conniption fit. Whereas if you look at the culture, like the groups that it, it, it, it uplifts like it well pretends to uplift. See our episode on God, what, what's, what was the episode title where we showed that basically it equality

Simone Collins (2): is something like, oh, the racism of equality.

Racism of equality, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But like black culture, for example a if you look at Kwanza, like a specific part of Kwanzaa is only shopping at black owned businesses.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Like it doesn't, it doesn't see any issue as this yet. If somebody said, I only wanna shop at white owned businesses. Right. And, and, and keep in mind, I mean, presumably

Simone Collins (2): just imagining anyone being like, support your white-owned businesses this week, that would, I just, yeah.

I don't know, like.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, and people can be like, oh, come on, these businesses aren't advantage. Well, first of all, there's all sorts of loans that they can get that clearly makes them an advantage. Oh my gosh, yes. Like, yeah, but they're subject to racism in terms of who shops there. And I'm like, we can see that.

That's objectively not the case. Well also like how do you find out?

Simone Collins (2): How would you know that? I mean, unless they actively advertise it.

Malcolm Collins: They do actively advertise it if you go to Google Map. Oh yeah. Because it's to their

Simone Collins (2): advantage. But like

Malcolm Collins: if, if you go to Google Maps or if you go to Yelp it will say like black or a woman owned business.

That's because they

Simone Collins (2): know it will help them. But if they thought it would, right.

Malcolm Collins: That's the point I'm making here. Okay. The very fact that they are opting into listing was this identification. And I have never seen a business advertise as a white or male owned business. Imagine

Simone Collins (2): a male owned,

Malcolm Collins: proudly male owned since 1984.

We do that. Can we do that? Oh my God. I'm gonna do that with our businesses. Proudly a white male owned business. Um, Wow. Uh, No. No. But the point being is that the reason why people don't advertise with that is because they know that there is a prejudice against, white male owned businesses.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and that they will get fewer customers while there is a, a, a positive prejudice towards women or, I, I love they say minority owned when these days minority is such like a, a self opt-in identification. One of the, the funniest. Ways this shows is, is Native Americans have like abysmal fertility rates, and yet the quote unquote Native American population has grown by like 90% in the past 10 years.

And it's just due to deciding to identify as Native American, like Pocahontas. Elizabeth Warren what was she like one 17th Native American or something? I

Simone Collins (2): thought she didn't turn out to have any.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, maybe not at all.

Simone Collins (2): Indigenous ancestry. Yeah, that was my understanding.

Malcolm Collins: But the point here being is, and, and I'm making in this wider argument, is the reason they're imposing this restriction around ados versus mindset on you is so that you cannot recognize what they are doing to you.

And so that the people who they victimize most cannot fight back. That's the entire purpose of this.

Simone Collins (3): Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And so now we'll look at the arguments that they use against us versus a mindset to point out that there are fairly stupid arguments. So oversimplification and binary thinking. It reduces complex issues to good verse evil, right verse wrong, ignoring nuances.

For instance, people tend to. Excuse flaws of their own group, attributing them to external factors while blaming inherent traits for the same issues. In outgroups, this can escalate minor disagreements into full blown divisions, as seen in political polarization where one side defies itself and demonizes the other, sorry, deifies itself and demonizes the other.

And I'm like, I don't think that that's true at all. The, the opposite political party is genuinely, I think, pretty vile right now. Like I, I, I don't see that much. I like redeeming when we attack them, we attack them because. Of what they are attempting to accomplish and what they say they want, which is a, a, a racially segregated society.

Like I don't think that that's a good thing. A racially segregated society was Jews at the bottom. I think that maybe we've seen this before and it is bad and it makes sense to be like, ah, them that they're doing the thing, the thing they've done before. We need to stop this. Kristen,

Simone Collins (2): not a great thing.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: no, not a great thing. No. It's so funny, like the, the freaking bizarre, like. The same people we know, like educated, productive people. They'll like, share stuff with us that is obviously made up about things that's like happening in Gaza right now. And I'm like, you, you can tell this is obviously fake, right?

Like you, you know, this is fake. And no, they, they won't like the, the, the tendency to want to see Jews in the most negative possible light, I think is incredibly high across populations, in part because, okay, well, that's a whole other video. I'm not gonna get too far into that, but I, but I, but I will say that we've seen this before, like, I, I, I find it crazy.

That was in my lifetime. I remember walking through London at night. I don't go out at night and seeing an angry, very large mob shouting you know, from the river to the sea marching through the streets and, and very explicitly anti-Semitic things. And, then seeing, you know, death, death to the IDF and stuff like that at the the, the concert, this giant concert, this giant crowd of progressives seeing this.

Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the id. F death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Hell yeah. From the river, Tennessee

So, just in case you forgot, , the IDF is a mandatory conscription service for all people of a certain age in Israel. , So when you say death to the IDF, or at least all Jews of a certain age, , you were saying death to the Jews. When you say from the river to the sea, that is the entire land of Israel.

You were saying you went to eradicate all of the Jews in their homeland.

Malcolm Collins: so, so, so people could be like, oh, well, you know, you shouldn't lump this group in as evil. And I'm like, they're trying to divide us into an ethnic caste system, which gives us the bottom, like maybe we do need to treat this seriously. Right? And, and they, they do directly oppose the interest of individuals like myself.

I mean, anybody who is. A white male in our existing economy knows very well that there are many jobs you just can't apply to anymore. I mean, I remember being told really destroying sort of my life's dream. My life's dream was to become a professor at Stanford and at the, at their business school.

Right? And that's where I got my MBA and I, I, I, I, I did classes there and I did. All of the steps, the, the, the career path. I went down the going into VC and private equity through the path of a search fund was the number one most common pass for the professors at the university.

Simone Collins (3): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I went down it with that as my intention until one day I'm talking with a professor, he's a very, and he goes, oh, well, you know, obviously this is off the books, but there is a ban on hiring white profe white male professors right now through,

Simone Collins (2): through forever.

Malcolm Collins: Anything other there? There was one pathway that they could be hired if they went through the traditional academic pathway, but not through the becoming a good business person or a well-known public intellectual pathway. And I was just like, well, that sucks.

I think people can, you know, emphasize this because they've seen it in shows and stuff like that, but to actually have it happen in your own life, to work your entire life, to follow all the rules, to achieve your dream job, and then be told, I'm sorry, actually, this was never really available to people who were born with your skin tone.

, Is incredibly disheartening and people can be like, oh, well now we're just doing it to, to you, which you guys did to us. And it's like, my ancestors never did this to you. My ancestors fought and died so that you could be free and equal. You know, as, as I've mentioned, , of the founding members of the f Free state of Jones, 15 of the 50 were either kids of, or siblings of my direct ancestors.

Um, you know, you. You have just flopped the roles. You are acting evil, and there is a reason why we are trying to destroy this system.

Malcolm Collins: That was also, we,

Simone Collins (2): we know young college grads who've just come out and been told again, off the record, listen, we just can't.

Malcolm Collins: Hire you. Yeah. Just don't even try. Yeah. Like we don't hire people of your ethnic group or your Yeah. Like,

Simone Collins (2): Hey, I think you're, you know, a nice guy. You look hardworking, don't bother. I don't want you to waste your time 'cause it's gonna waste your time. That's so sad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And whites need not apply. No, I mean it's a, it's a common thing.

Like it's, it's, it's a and the people who say this isn't a common thing I, I. Like, I'm actually sort of baffled. Are they living in a different reality? Like do they not have white? Well,

Simone Collins (2): I mean, it, it, it, I could see like maybe in. A Midwestern agricultural, you know, farming world. There, there aren't these same quotas based on identity.

People are just hiring practically, and they're absolutely hiring immigrants and they're absolutely hiring locals. Like they're just hiring actually based on, you know, availability, merit, like if they're willing to do the work. I, I do think that we're mostly talking about, honestly, the jobs that are first going to be automated away by ai, those white collar.

Knowledge worker, middle management desk jobs. So it's almost a moot point at this point anyway. And I almost feel like to a certain extent, young white men have been given an advantage because they have been forced out of these jobs before they cease to exist. And they. Are ahead of everyone else and figuring out alternative revenue streams and, and careers that are not going to be on the chopping block of ai.

Instead, and this is why I said I think for example, like women and other people who have a disproportionate advantage in large bureaucracies, in these middle management roles in large companies are going to be extra screwed by the AI revolution. So. Yeah, maybe, maybe it was a good thing, you know?

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it's, it's like if you have a group that is very obviously being discriminated against within a, a social order or by a cultural system the most effective thing you can do is to villainize creating a pan cultural identity. Imagine if during segregation, for example, they had culturally villainized building a sort of pan black identity in the same way that they culturally villainize any sort of like pan white identity within a modern context.

Hmm. Or, or even like minority white, like we often, I don't identify as white as much as I identify as greater Appalachian or backwoods cultural tradition or puritan cultural tradition, both of which I'm descended from.

Simone Collins (2): You're here. I think it's, it is similar. I mean, we've talked about this many times about how we think that the, the concept of, I mean, at least now having spent more time.

Working in Latin America, working with people from various Latin American, like especially South American countries, seeing this concept of being Latino or Latina or Latin, Latin LA tanks, the worst of all in the United States as being so insensitive because they're like, dude, I'm not. Latina or Hispanic.

I'm like, Colombian, I'm Brazilian.

Malcolm Collins: They're trying to force them into this larger group because, but I, you know

Simone Collins (2): what bothers me though? Yeah. And they are trying to force 'em into this larger group. What I don't get is when white people themselves are like, I'm white. When I'm like, I don't, I don't, yeah. Like, I'm like, I'm like you.

I see myself as. A specific subculture that may be predominantly white, but like more has to do with, you know, a specific European geographic region, or more likely just a cultural subculture. Well, I mean, the

Malcolm Collins: reason why it does make sense

Simone Collins (2): for white to all just be one thing.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, no, no. But for people to attempt to build identity around this or community around this is because that is a shared reason for their discrimination in the same way that like gay people and trans people really have very little in common and probably should not be in the same bucket.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. The

Malcolm Collins: reason why each group was discriminated against historically was largely the same reason.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, like they were, 'cause you're not X you're not hetero, so, right.

Malcolm Collins: So whether, whether I am of the backwoods tradition or I'm a white Catholic, or I am a white, you know, like Cavalier descendant regardless of that.

All of these groups are being discriminated against by the same individuals. And so, when they're attempting to ban together to sort of work towards any form of, of a real equal playing field they, and I love, people can be like, how can you say there's an equal playing field and these groups are making more money than these groups?

And I'm like, well, I mean, there's. Groups that out earn us in an equal playing field. Like I'd note that Japanese immigrants had everything taken from them and now they're out earning white people fairly recent. Well, that's what I was

Simone Collins (2): thinking when, when we were talking about this too, is how like Japanese people, Jews, you know, these have been groups that have faced systemic.

And long-term discrimination. And it has made them sharper in many ways. So are white men really screwed if they're now being discriminated against? Maybe not.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, that's a good point. And you know, forcing them to create their own companies and, and find independent sources of income is also gonna make it easier to create larger families.

Yeah. Especially at higher levels of wealth, which we're actually seeing in the statistics. I've pointed out many times that black Americans, for example, have the lowest fertility rate of all ethnic groups in the United States by a significant margin when they're not in the bottom 20 20% of black income.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so next reason here, it says To not create this prejudice and discrimination by categorizing people into rigid groups. It fosters exclusion, stereotypes, and even dehumanization. This can manifest in everyday settings like workplaces where teams develop an US versus Zim dynamic that stifles.

Creativity and collaboration. In some cases it contributes to violence and systemic bias, such as policing, where offices view their role as a battle against the bad guy, or officers view their role as a battle. And I'm like, but like that's already happening. Like if you're a group that is already being discriminated against, attempting to be like, Hey.

We should work together. Like that's what, what do you mean? But in, in addition to this, the idea of, of prejudice or stereotypes more broadly, like stereotypes are a useful thing in terms of interacting with the world. People are different. Like diversity would have no value if everyone was exactly the same.

If every human was interchangeable with every other human, then there would be no point to diversity to begin with. So. Because that's the case, because, well, and doesn't the

Simone Collins (2): rivalry also breed healthy competition in a way that makes everyone stronger?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and I will note here when I say diversity is, and I agree with what you just said there that rivalry helps make everyone stronger.

Competition helps make everyone stronger. That's part of why capitalism produces so much more economic, thriving than other economic systems. But God, what was the point I was going to make before,

Simone Collins (2): oh, sorry for interrupting you.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yes. That, that, that stereotypes are very important because they're real, right? Like you, you can build behavioral patterns of specific groups and. Make predictions based on those behavioral patterns. But even more than that, through those patterns, you can build a sense of identity, like the stereotypes of your own group, help you build a sense of identity.

When we look to build a sense of identity for our family, we look to the historic, you know, backwards cultural tradition and the Puritan cultural tradition, the Calvinist cultural tradition, 'cause that's who we are.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And so, I, I. I can't, you know, like if, if, if those groups weren't different from other groups in some way, we wouldn't be able to learn from them, right?

Like I point out to many people and we go into more detail on this than the Pragmatist Guide to Life. The Pragmatist Guide to Relationships, I wanna say, or govern. No. I don't know which one I, we, this was my no crafting religion is where we go into it. That a good example of historic like Calvinist Puritan stereotypes if you're not familiar with what they were, comes from the Ebenezer Scrooge character.

Simone Collins (2): That was definitely religion. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is very much just, and, and these are a bunch of negative caricatures, but that doesn't mean that I can't learn from them and develop something from them. I think when many people have a sense of ethnic or cultural pride, many of the things you take pride in are otherwise.

Framed negatively by other people.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like Scrooge was known as incredibly tight with money. It didn't heat the house in the winter. Very, you know, all, all the same with us. Didn't you know, was logical in the way he distributed his, his wealth. He didn't give it to an employee just 'cause they were closer to him.

But he did donate to local shelters. It was made very clear and saved money for that. You know, so why, why does this person, tiny Tim, deserve more from him than the community at large? Just because he's more adjacent to him, you know? We often note that the whole entire story is sort of a corrective grape fantasy of the Calvinist stereotypes of that time period.

And and I read it. I'm just like, Scrooge was right. Scrooge was right from the beginning, man. Stop being so indulgent. You need to learn to be more frugal. You know, it says ate mush every day. But the point I made here is stereotypes, broadly speaking as a society are more beneficial than they are negative.

Simone Collins (2): Well, and people of specific groups who appear to have a lot of pride in their groups. Are the, the ones I see roasting their own groups the most. You know, there's, there's enjoyment of the making fun of, of your own stereotypes. You see this a lot with Mormon culture. You see this with every culture. I mean, look at like comedians, bits.

This is just how it goes.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, and within the urban monoculture, you are very much allowed to make stereotypes about white men. Yeah, there are so many stereotypes that the urban monoculture will say about white men. They'll even shout, like, kill white men. And people won't lose their job over this.

The, I mean, if that's not a sign of an extreme level of racial and gender oppression, normalized was in a culture. And everybody knows like kill hetero white men. Like this is a thing that is said frequently in environments like Tumblr. X in blue sky. Right. I'm sure we've gotten it in a reply to like our tweets before, right?

Along with a, a set of stereotypes. I would rather just normalize stereotypes for everyone instead of have it be they say, oh, we need to ban people making fun of white men. Because that's, that's, that's illogical, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm

Simone Collins (2): all, for everyone being made fun of, come on, let's have, let's have fun.

I. There is though I would point out because there is a little bit of hypo hypocrisy in all this. A very mainstream means of us versus them mentality that is celebrated, longstanding, full of creativity. And no one's complaining about it. I mean, sometimes it leads to property damage and vandalism mm-hmm.

And occasional riots. But it's still not only a celebrated and time on our tradition around the world but a, a huge source of industry and capitalistic profit. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Malcolm Collins: Sports.

Simone Collins (2): Yes, sports rivalries are amazing. But it's funny, and I mean, there's the, the mascot stealing the vandalism.

Did you know about the the Harford versus Yale? We suck card stunt. It's one of my favorite examples of a sports, wait, tell me. Yale students posed as, as Harvard Prep Squad people, they, they, they distributed in this, in this role. Placards to Harvard fans claiming that they would spell out, go Harvard.

You know how like, you know, audiences in a big stadium will put up cards. But then when displayed, the cards actually spelled we suck, which is just. Delightful. I, I, it's a rival, like people love these rivalries and the, what I love about this too is it shows how you can have big time us versus them mentality.

And like actually do some, I mean, that was an innocent prank, but there have been like, there, there have been riots, there have, there have been fights there. It gets intense. And yet everyone's ultimately playing the same game. The rivalries sharpen teams against each other. They motivate

Malcolm Collins: people.

They're fun. I mean, why, why can't we have ethnic rivalries? That, that, I mean, maybe it without the, the riots in the city. Maybe without the riots.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, maybe without the vandalism. I mean, you know

Malcolm Collins: what would be really fun actually. Oh my God. Ethnic based sports teams in the US

Simone Collins (2): you have like, no, no, because there are too many, like ethnic specializations.

Too many ethnic

Malcolm Collins: specializations.

Simone Collins (2): You mean the black, so then, I mean, I don't know if it's like universal. I don't know if everybody wouldn't even,

Malcolm Collins: wouldn't even. Care, like everyone knows the black teams win every year, and so it's for the second spot that you're fighting oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Or would it just become too obvious, too quickly that like, this is actually the order of ethnicities within this sport in terms of competition?

Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. I think, yeah, it's, it's a little better when there's. A shot at excellence. I mean, of course

Malcolm Collins: though, that would do so well as a show. I, I had a reality show I would do that. I would you, you know how they had that one reality show where they divided the teens into women versus men? And it did really poorly.

Poorly, oh my God. It was like a survival.

Simone Collins (2): Or was it just survivor? Just

Malcolm Collins: into like, self sabotage and like hating each other almost immediately. And the male team was like all broy and just was like, Hey, let's figure out how to fish. Let's figure out how to hunt. Let's build a shelter. And the women were just, and they had to not like bailing out the, the female team so bad.

Put that together, put divide people based on ethnic group. It would go so viral. It would go so viral. Yes, you'd get a bunch of complaints at the studio, but it would go so viral and I, I it would go pretty. Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I feel like people would tune in just to be like, would you

Malcolm Collins: watch it? Would you be like, imagine, imagine if you could even like Team Korean or something, like have your little flag and everything.

Simone Collins (2): I mean, yeah, I mean, we kind of do it with the Olympics. You just wanna see it on, you know, some other.

Malcolm Collins: Non sports thing? Well, no, 'cause it's cheating. I mean, the US wins the Olympics with, with like, I, I wanna see it based on immigrant gr like, like specific ethnocultural groups, right? Like Right. Because

Simone Collins (2): like the USA also just attracts the best talent from all the other countries.

And then it gets to be like, oh, USA wins when it's really Oh, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: USA wins. Because no, if you win the Olympics for some other country at like running or something, the US a, it's like, Hey, come here, run for us. Right. You know? Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You'll be able to eat.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. It's true. Yeah. You, you sort of have like, maybe two people from ultimately the same genetic lineage being first and second place, but like USA wins because

Malcolm Collins: I, I never understand sports because so much of it is just genetics.

It's like, why are we, no, see, that's why,

Simone Collins (2): that's why we need the, what's his name who's doing the, the like. Roy rage version of the Olympics. What does he Oh yeah. We know we had

Malcolm Collins: on our podcast like the Olympics, but with steroids. Yeah. Episode he,

Simone Collins (2): what did he call them? The something Games. Games or something?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But anyway, it's gonna be happening apparently.

Simone Collins (2): Well, it was supposed to happen this summer. I wonder if it's already happened. Well, let's see. Steroid.

Malcolm Collins: Steroid Olympics. Okay, I'll go to the next one. Yeah. Amplification in modern society, media

Simone Collins (2): games. Sorry.

Malcolm Collins: So what, what, what, what happened?

Simone Collins (2): Did it

Malcolm Collins: happen?

Simone Collins (2): Looks like it's been moved to May, 2026.

Malcolm Collins: You gotta give people time to get all hyped up on their, their, I mean, it's

Simone Collins (2): to get the right regimen. It takes a while. You gotta, let's do it right. Let's do it right. I'm okay with that.

Malcolm Collins: I want kid fights like a b, c piece that had our kids fighting and you're like, every day is hunger games in our house.

I actually would not mind just put sock bops on kids, set 'em after each other in like a field. I mean, our kids caged

Simone Collins (2): in the

Malcolm Collins: crib. This is like a joke, but I used to go to rodeos as a kid in like rural Texas. Oh, they still do that?

Simone Collins (2): No,

Malcolm Collins: no, no. The kids are still doing rodeos. Oh yeah. Well you have the the.

The cattle cal. Oh. So what they do is before the show they release a cow like a calf that like runs around or like a pig, I think they do in some environments. And all of the kids run around in the mud, which is like where the, the horses are gonna be doing their thing. And try to catch it.

And, and it's, it is a very aggressive sort of a, a thing. And I want more of that. I, I find that more entertaining than the rodeo.

Simone Collins (2): Just, just more, you just want the Hunger Games. You just want tributes. I do. Why? Why can't I have the Hunger

Malcolm Collins: Games? This is all, this is, this is clearly unfair the way society is structured.

Simone Collins (2): People would volunteer. 100% people would volunteer. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Amplification. In modern society, media and social platforms exploit this for engagement, turning differences into threats and eroding trust. Well, hold on. If they are actively targeting a group that you are in, that's, that's saying, you should still trust them even when they target you.

That's a really effed up thing to be telling somebody. It can create self-fulfilling prophecies where perceived divisions become real ones worsening problems like climate denial or social unrest. It's like this is what's true and what you believe isn't true. And anybody who's a climate denialist, they're in this other camp.

I love, even in the AI's answer, it creates the other. But I recently saw a Reddit post about this where somebody was like, I can't believe, you know, my grandmother who raised me posted this and it was a meme about how a guy who had gotten a degree at like a fancy university and philosophy was about to have his power shut off by somebody who's earning a lot more and had gotten like an associate's degree.

From in like electronics, right? Like fixing, fixing like it's an electrician. Basically just being like, Hey, this is the path you wanna take. And they're like, oh, they're right. Trying to turn the working class against each other. And it's like, what? This guy was a philosophy degree as a working class who's working as a, as a associate professor.

He is not the working class. But you have identified him as such because you are trying to identify the blue collar workers as being not a group you are victimizing, but the same type of people as yourself when they are not the same type of people as yourself. Yeah. That's messed

Simone Collins (2): up.

Malcolm Collins: This is what I'm talking about here.

When they're like. AMPL amplification modern society that social media are, you know, you turn this to create group divides. They want to hide that these group divides are real and exacerbated by their self. It.

Simone Collins (3): Mm.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Like, and this is the thing about us versus them and why it is so threatening to the urban monoculture because the us if you look at the new Right coalition, you know, you've got like the tech, right, like us who are, you know, like pro-gay marriage, pro all sorts of things that the right no longer opposes as like a mainstream party.

You know, I would support, you know, abortion at the level of like, you know, within the first few days. But, but I would support like stricter abortion access and it is available in any state right now.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Or in most states right now. Certainly my own state. So like my interests all align with the Republican party's interests.

You know, I, I, I may not support like. Forcing a Christian education on everyone. But I do want to get the weird trans stuff outta schools, which is what they're actually fighting for at like a, a, a government level right now. Right? So like my interests are perfectly overlapping with their interests right now.

And so. Even though we're very diverse, and this was actually shown in a, a graph that came out. If you look at the perspectives within the modern conservative party, it's like this giant circle right now.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Within the modern Democratic party. It's this very, very, very tight circle.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. We did an episode on this.

Yeah. Like the, the spiderwebs. They looked like spiderwebs.

Malcolm Collins: Did we

Simone Collins (2): ever

Malcolm Collins: publish that episode?

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, I think we did. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But the US versus Zim, but saying, oh, you can't create an US versus Zim dynamic, basically makes it so that you can't ally with people who are different from you. Because when I say US versus Zim, or I'm talking an us versus them concept, the US on my side includes like traditionalist Christians and Orthodox Jews and Amish and people.

Well, I think

Simone Collins (2): the funny thing though is when you look within the new, right, and you see all these different subgroups. One the left tries to frame it as, oh, it's fractured and it can barely hold together. And actually we are all, no, we're very friendly, but there is a little bit of that friendly sports team type rivalry.

There actually is us in theming them. I would argue. You know, like the Catholics going, yeah, you guys are going to hell for IVF. And we're like, yeah, you guys are kind of going for hell or not. You know, like. You're killing kids. Why not? And

Malcolm Collins: for people who don't understand what she means by saying that is we think that you are morally responsible for the differences in the timeline that your choices create.

Simone Collins (3): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So if you make a choice that prevents the human being who otherwise come to exist from coming to exist, you have functionally killed that human being. Yeah. Regardless if that happened before the egg was fertilized or not,

Simone Collins (2): and we have very animated, but genial and, and fun in, in that very like sports rivalry.

Style debates with these different groups who, and they express pride in their view, and we express pride in our view. And we, but we still talk and in, in exchange. And I, I do think that like, weirdly, the us versus them rivalry that is functional is within the new, the new right. And a really good example of toxic US versus them mentality mm-hmm.

Is, is between the right and the left. Maybe the issue is that us versus them only works when there's exchange. And if there isn't, then it becomes toxic. What do you think?

Malcolm Collins: What do you mean exchange?

Simone Collins (2): Collaboration, interplay, commerce. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: On our, my Little Pony episode, that's sort of what we show, right?

Like the Pegasus and the unicorns and the earth ponies all may be different in their capacities, but that doesn't mean they can't be friends and work together towards a common out. Come against groups that are genuinely opposed to all of their interests.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And, and that's what we're dealing with today.

You know, in this episode I've talked about like, why would diversity have any value if people aren't really different? And while I believe diversity is a thing of value, the analogy I use is this, like ingredients. It has value like not, not in a absolute sense, a meal isn't better because it has more diversity, because it has more ingredients.

It's the right mix of ingredients to create a dish. Mm-hmm. And a chef is better off for more ingredients existing in the world, but you don't need them here in my backyard, right?

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that, what we create when we have an US, and this is what's really dangerous, is the clear thing about us versus Zim is us versus Zim rarely creates the US around just your cultural group, right?

When us versus them thinking happens most frequently. It's because the US is combining multiple groups into a dish instead of just one group of versus them, like the urban monoculture doesn't need us versus them thinking because it's, there's a right way of doing things and there's a wrong way of doing things, and our way of doing things is the right way.

You know, IE like the AI being like, well, you wouldn't want them not to believe in manmade global climate change. Right? When, you know, if you actually look at the data there is. Some reasons to doubt this. And, and the people who doubt it aren't like crazy or anything. This is something that I think we should genuinely be talking about.

But they, they won't do that. They're just like, these people are stupid savages. Don't listen to them. But when you get into us versus them thinking, what's really happening is you're building a coalition. Because I'm saying us isn't just people like me and what's my views, it's people who are opposed to the them, and you are the them.

Speaker 4: Hmm,

Malcolm Collins: because you're the one who has chosen, like, a great example is Latin Americans, right? Like for Latin Americans have us versus them thinking they would have all Latin American community, they'd be like, we're, we're different. We're different cultures. We have different stereotypes about us. IE we're different in many ways.

But we take pride in that and we work together against those who would collectively disadvantage us because of this central reason, right? Mm-hmm. And, and that creates us versus them. So I think that us versus them is actually almost sort of necessary to live a moral life and protect yourself unless you just are lucky enough to be born into or have cowardly enough to have converted into the dominant cultural group within a region.

Simone Collins (2): Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I, I think though with the rise of ai, as demographic collapse plays out, as we see dependency ratio cascades undermine governments, and more centralized run societies, more centrally run societies. We are going to see, as we keep saying the rise of techno feudalism, we're going to see more balkinization of culture and communities and I think we're going to see more us versus them mentality.

And what I hope that we'll see is us versus them mentality in the context of trade commerce, healthy rivalry, competition exchange, and you know, learning from each other. Instead of this a form of balkinization that leads to raids and attempted annihilation in genocide. So I think this is a really important subject and I think people should be thinking strategically about how they with their community or their culture or their religion contextualize and work with others.

You can look at how, I mean, Jews that have been victimized for so long nevertheless work. Do commerce with other cultures. I mean, they're very strategic about how they, I guess, exchange with the larger world and how they like, where they lean in with just their own communities. But I think these are things that people should be thinking about and there's definitely a way to do this, right?

And those, there's a way to do this. Really to your detriment. To the world's detriment, to humanity's detriment.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you to Dec Simone. You're a very special lady. Do you have any final thoughts on why we need to, I mean, it's not just us versus them thinking, which is good. It's stereotypes, which are good, like.

How, look, you, you watch a show that celebrates a culture, like I think a, a show that does a very good job of celebrating Colombian culture is oh, what's that latest? Where that recent Disney show?

Simone Collins (2): Oh, Encanto. Is that Colombian culture?

Malcolm Collins: Colombian culture, yeah. It specifically takes place in Columbia.

It does.

Simone Collins (2): Oh.

Malcolm Collins: So you, you watch the show right? It is all stereotypes, but stereotypes are good. That's what we take pride in. You know, I'm from the, the, the redneck, like in puritan cultural groups, a bunch of stereotypes. That's what cultural pride is, is having pride in the stereotypes about your people.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, right. Like I said, like if you, if you look at all the, the comedic roastings of different groups, that they're performed by people of those groups and they're amazing.

Malcolm Collins: When women in monoculture attempts to eradicate. Your ability to even see your group within stereotypes. 'cause remember, they don't just hate the quote unquote negative stereotypes.

They hate the positive ones too. Like Asians being good at math, their karate or something like that, right? Mm-hmm. Like all of these, you, you can't have any of these. And when they do that, what they're actually erasing is your ability to have pride in the ways that you are different from other people.

Simone Collins (2): True? Yeah. The only thing that you can be proud of is the extent to which you assimilate with a culture that is. It is very artificial, not succinct. Well, when they,

Malcolm Collins: when they remove all of those sources of pride, they then say, so, so you're like, what? I can't be proud of anything. And it's like, well, you can be proud of what you're attracted to.

What, what gives you pleasure hedonism, right? Like, that works. And then you, and then you get sucked into the culture, right? Like it's a very effective strategy. They, they shame any pride you have in your cultural stereotypes, be they positive or negative. You know, I, and, and I, and, and people know I take pride in boast within my culture.

I often talk about the violent nature of the backwoods people. You know, scooping out, sharpening their fingernails to scoop out people's eyeballs, right? Like, there, there, there, there, there's many, I don't actually, I don't think any group today has a stereotype that negatively violent. But, and I'm, and I'm like, that's f*****g cool, man.

But the point I'm making here, I'm sure

Simone Collins (2): people will come up with ideas.

Malcolm Collins: It's removing your ability to have pride in yourself is what they're removing when they, they remove stereotypes. They don't say that this is what they're doing, but it's functionally what they're doing. Mm-hmm. And no, no. Grand conspirator came up with this.

It's just the groups that adopted these beliefs had an easier time converting people into it because they erased your ability to have pride in this. And then they said, but you can still have pride in In, in Why? Right. And we have a parade for you. It's called the Pride Parade. Come on, join it.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, wow.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway,

Simone Collins (2): I think a lot of these things will change. Shall I make you pot stickers for dinner?

Malcolm Collins: You know, I'd love pot stickers tonight.

Simone Collins (2): Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins (2): unless you want pizza, because I'm doing an oven night, everything else is gonna be in the oven.

Malcolm Collins: Not pizza night. Pizza. Pizza to pizza.

Simone Collins (2): You want Ry on your

Malcolm Collins: pizza.

Whatever you wanna put on the top of it,

Simone Collins (2): just surprise you with Indian spices.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins (2): And Dees g Andoni, of

Malcolm Collins: course. MSGI do not know how Americans went so long making pizza without MSG. What were they thinking?

Simone Collins (2): Well, and with cutting it with, without. What is this pizza wheel nonsense when you just can get a pair of scissors for the love.

Malcolm Collins: For the love.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. I, I just, your experience in Korea, I feel like the most valuable thing that I've taken away from it personally is the scissors. I love the scissors for food cutting. Scissors for food cutting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I know, I know. But I love that. Yeah, I saw that in Chris. I was like, oh, ST.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, it changed everything.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. I love you, esam. I love you too. You're a great wife, a very, very good wife. You're a good husband. I honestly, you're so good. I'm not even gonna beat you today.

Simone Collins (2): Aw, what a shame

Malcolm Collins: did we get? Did we get too close to saying that somebody having pride in being white is okay in this episode?

Too close comment.

Simone Collins (2): No comment. We didn't

Malcolm Collins: say that, by the way. I, I think it's horrible. I think anyone who has white pride is a horrible, disgusting human being. And well, I just

Simone Collins (2): think it's, it's weird. I, because. What is what? Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: you should have pride in your specific group, but understand that there might be a larger alliance of groups that are being victimized for the same reason you're victimized.

Mm-hmm. I mean, when somebody denies me a job, they're not doing it because I'm from the backwoods cultural tradition. That's right. Or because I'm from the puritan cultural tradition, they're doing it because they're the color of my skin.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's helping me to better understand this.

Yeah. And the, the whole LA Tanks concept.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, like, look, the la the, the Catholic used to burn my ancestors at the stake, right? Like we don't have a history of an alliance, but right now, well, I mean, yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I think in general, I may be wrong about this, but probably the vast majority of violence that has been subject to any particular ethnic or cultural group has been from people within.

Those groups, the call is normally coming from inside the house. Yeah, so the, the intergroup hate is widely covered, but not the big source of the problem. So.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you toes, Simone. You're great. Bye

Simone Collins (2): Malcolm. Bye. I'll call you when,

Malcolm Collins: oh, we're gonna do a mix of potstickers, right? Some veggie, some. I thought we were doing

Simone Collins (2): pizza.

We can do pot pizza.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. Pizza, not pot stickers. Get the pizza. Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a little bit of like sacrificial freezer mystery chicken as well. 'cause I think you're just gonna throw it away. No,

Malcolm Collins: no, no.

Simone Collins (2): You're gonna wanna throw it away. Well then should I just feed it directly to the chickens without, no,

Malcolm Collins: no.

Just what are you, did you already defrost it?

Simone Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Then do it tomorrow. Just, you're not gonna

Simone Collins (2): want to eat it though anyway, so I'm just like,

Malcolm Collins: no, I don't want you to over feed me. I hate when you make dishes that are too big because you're, do you just

Simone Collins (2): want one quarter of a pizza? That's so little food. I don't want that much food.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Look, Simone, if if you, if you are going to do it, then do it and do the rice and everything like that. No, I'm not

Simone Collins (2): gonna do the rice. No. I was just gonna, I'll, I'll, I'll save the chicken for another night, I guess. But. I'll go with the PO stickers.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I'm, I'm imposing my pregnancy mindset on you.

I'm, I'm ravenous. Can I do a

Malcolm Collins: third of pizza instead of a quarter?

Simone Collins (2): Oh, you want more?

Malcolm Collins: A third, but not aquar. No, not half. Half is too big.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. Yeah. At least then I don't feel like I'm, well, I'm also doing sourdough. Would you just like fresh sourdough with jam instead of a third of a pizza?

Malcolm Collins: The sourdough is.

Oh yeah, sourdough is jam is great. Oh, can you put cheese on top of it?

Simone Collins (2): I would have to cut it and then toast it, but I can totally do that.

Malcolm Collins: Oh no, no, no, no, no. Then just the pizza and the sourdough is jam if you, maybe a bit more than a quarter, but not a full third. And that's what I'm having tonight.

That was a sourdough.

Simone Collins (2): Sounds good.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. Love you.

Simone Collins (2): I love you too.

Simone Collins: sexy women with zebra face paint hanging in golden cages to figure out what to do, what to create. Makes sense. Sounds fun. We'll, see, I'm just, yeah, I, I think I've watched the, what does the fox say with her children so many times.

Malcolm Collins: What, why they, they love this video.

Simone Collins (2): The what does the, yeah. You know, what does the fox say that that's like their favorite song of all time.

That's why they all want Fox Plushies. That's why they all wanna dress up like foxes. That's why Indie second words are NN dinging. NN.

Malcolm Collins: That's where the Fox plus she came from. I should have known.

Simone Collins (2): Well, I mean the Fox Plus she came from. From Steve and Minka, but they loved it because it's the fox.

Malcolm Collins: And what does the fox say?

What does, well, they know what the Fox says. Says it's a great children's song now that I think about it. You know, it's funny that it became popular as like a song for adults, but like it's, it's more of a children's song.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, I mean, and Indie loves it is she's like learning words because it's very, like I said, like her.

She she'll just like randomly be like, ding, dinging, ding. She'll. Yeah, she speaks Fox. She

Malcolm Collins: can, she can speak at Fox is not before she speaks

Simone Collins (2): human. Yeah. But no, really, she's a Pokemon because her first actual real words are Indie.

Malcolm Collins: Indy. Indy. She points to herself Indy. She mostly say,

Simone Collins (2): mommy,

Malcolm Collins: you're trying to, my mom, sorry.

My wife tried to get her to understand. Who she is. And so she'd point to Indie and she'd go, indie Mommy. Mm-hmm. Daddy.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And she can get indie and no one else. Indy.

Simone Collins (3): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It's not mommy or daddy first. Actually, that's kind of wild because like mama and dad are supposed to be like easy words for kids to say, yeah, no, get first.

No. Very clearly her first word is her own name and she knows exactly what she's talking about. There's no

Simone Collins (2): ambiguity. She, she'll never say it pointing at anything but herself. It's amazing.

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Simone Collins (2): oh, I

Malcolm Collins: like that. That's the type of kid I wanna raise. Come on.

Simone Collins (2): Pride, man. Yeah. People are like, how could you name your daughter industry whenever I, I.

Post a, some like Instagram photo that has her in it or something. And I mentioned it, you named your child industry. She seems pretty happy about it. People.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, she seems, she seems to dig it. All of our kids like their names, to be honest. 'Cause I asked 'em, I'm like, do you, would you want another name?

And they're like, no, this is

Simone Collins (3): no, no. Text

Malcolm Collins: is the next one. Text. Get a good old fashioned American name. It's good. All right.

Come back this year.

Did.

In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins explore the fascinating parallels between human behavior in cities and animal behavior in zoos. Drawing on research, personal anecdotes, and cultural observations, they discuss how urban environments can lead to repetitive, compulsive, and sometimes self-destructive behaviors—mirroring what is seen in captive animals. The conversation covers fertility rates, social aggression, learned helplessness, and the psychological effects of modern city life, all with the Collins' signature blend of insight and humor.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be discussing an idea that I had that was prompted by something Ruby Yard was saying on what of Alt Hiss, no, which is that if you look at many of the odd behaviors that you see in cities today among humans, many of them look very similar to the types of behaviors that animals begin to make in captivity, specifically mammals in zoos. And a lot of people know the, you know, the mouse utopia experiment, right? And they try to draw a, a line between the mouse utopia use experiment and the ills of modern society and TikTok and falling fertility rates, and it's like, that's all well and good.

But the problem is, is that. We have evidence and you could find it online if you, if you Google about this, somebody did a extremely long blotted post that the Mouse Utopia experiment may, may have basically been faked. Like we don't know for sure. It, it basically, it, it, it was of that period of experiments in like the 1950s when [00:01:00] like nobody really cared if it was true or not.

They just cared how, how spicy it was. Yeah. It wasn't like

Simone Collins: pre-validation. There wasn't, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Go for it. Sure. Yeah, sure. Whatever. The, the, you wanna put this in your backyard? Yeah. It'll be full of dead mice soon. Sure. Whatever. Yeah. Basically what it appears they may have done is run a bunch of trials and then only reported the ones that were, that got interesting results in a very uncontrolled format.

Mm. And, and, and also that that only really gives us like one experiment to look at. But if instead of correlating with mouse utopia experiment, we correlate with well-known and well-documented behavior from zoos.

Simone Collins: Ooh, there's a lot of zoos and there's a lot of zoo animals. Yeah, a

Malcolm Collins: lot of, and this could be upstream of everything to do with fertility collapse because as you know, one of the most, oh yeah.

Simone Collins: Like you, even you, you know, when we used to start in the very beginning talk, talking with media, you talked about people breeding like caged pandas.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. People know caged pandas are famously hard to breed. They, the pandas [00:02:00] don't really breed in captivity. But lots of animals don't breed in captivity.

There, there are many species of wild animals that will almost not breed in captivity, which is odd. You know, people can look at humans not breeding and they're like, it's really weird because like evolutionarily we should be programmed to like, want to do all of this stuff stuff. Well, and

Simone Collins: especially like if you've got nothing but time, what are you gonna do?

But bang each other. What's

Simone Collins (3): going on here?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and then literally it is very similar to cities. They are in a confined area but natural predators are removed and they are given all the food that they could ever want. Yeah. And they are just, tons of toys are thrown in with them like with us, like being on our phone or something like that.

Yeah. You're given all of the stimulation so they can masturbate these traditional instincts. When I say masturbate an instinct, what I mean is masturbation. As a concept is, is is when you are using a a stimuli that is not the stimuli that a pattern of arousal or pleasure evolved to be triggered by, [00:03:00] to trigger that.

Yeah. And so it could be, you know, your. Exploration stimuli from like a video game or something like that. That's a form of masturbation, right? Mm-hmm. Or as we've said before, you know, having pets instead of having kids is a form of masturbating specific child rearing instincts for some individuals.

But anyway, so very, very, very similar circumstances and. I'm just gonna dive into it because I thought it was really interesting and, and I'm, he wasn't the first person to go into this. Somebody wrote a book on this subject. I think it's far back as the 1950s.

Simone Collins: Interesting.

Malcolm Collins: So, yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I, I, I did a little bit of, of searching around this topic, like wondering what I immediately wondered and I, I actually have a theory as to why this is the case.

Also, it sort of dovetails with what we said, so we can kind of bear our notes and diagnoses. Ooh. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Animals and zoos often exhibit zoos, repetitive purposeless actions due to stress, lack of stimulation, restricted space.

Speaker 6: Oh. [00:04:00]

Malcolm Collins: Examples include big cats pacing for hours, elephants swaying or rocking their heads.

Zebras biting non-food objects repeatedly, and walrus is regurgitating food. Oh,

Simone Collins: They're, they're going polemic. This, this just sounds either like teenage girl stuff or autistic person stuff,

Malcolm Collins: right?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what's also interesting about these behavior patterns is that they, they, they seem to be species specific, so basically Oh yeah. What we see here is we can see like the, the zebras biting non-food objects or walrus is regurgitating food or elephants swaying or rocking their heads or big cat's pacing.

What this means is that we should expect humans to have a pattern of behavior like this. Actually while I go further, can you see if humans exhibit any behaviors that are zoos, like within extreme captivity, like jail cells or something? Oh. I think that'd be pretty interesting to see if we noted anything like that.

[00:05:00] Cities impose similar confinements through small apartments, et cetera leading to repetitive stereotypes like compulsive phone scrolling, nail biting, skin picking or substance abuse binge drinking and overeating. So you could see these behaviors, like these simple addictive behaviors as being something that you see in jail cells and not, or not, sorry, in, in sort of the captive environment.

I'd also note here that there is a common misunderstanding of Zs that people say that monkeys in the wild, like, I don't know, it became like a red pill. Talking point. Don't masturbate. This is not true at all. Monkeys in the wild masturbate a lot. It's well recorded in, in wild monkeys. They may masturbate slightly less than captive monkeys, but I think that's more an issue of the amount of time that they have on their hands.

In terms of like status fights, getting food, everything like that. What'd you find, Simone?

Simone Collins: It says, and I ask perplexity, humans do exhibit behaviors similar to psychosis, abnormal, repetitive, and somewhat self-destructive behaviors found in [00:06:00] captive animals when subjective to extreme confinement, such as in prisons or during prolonged hospitalization.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: keep your walls. I ask you like what behaviors, what does human psychosis look like?

Simone Collins: Like pacing, rocking, self-harm as a result of stress.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, these are all things we see in city dwellers as well, so I guess this is what makes sense that these are compulsive,

Simone Collins: repetitive, routine self-injury or agitation as coping mechanisms.

Malcolm Collins: Self-injury, the entire trans movement, and then

Simone Collins: also it prolonged isolation in humans is strongly associated with depression, anxiety, panic attacks, mood swings, impulsivity, apathy, withdrawal, and even psychotic system symptoms such as hallucinations and paranoia.

Oh, even cognitive impairments.

Malcolm Collins: Is, I mean, is that not what we're seeing with Trump Derangement syndrome, which is primarily coming from cities?

Kind of, yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Emotional distress and, and also, yeah, and paranoia

Malcolm Collins: and, and hallucinations and, yeah. Wild. And I'll note here, we've mentioned in other videos that, that this incredible low fertility rate and the behavioral issues you see associated [00:07:00] with cities are not a new phenomenon. In fact, cities have been a fertility shredder for.

Well, as, as long as we have records of them the, the fertility rate in cities has never been above your population rate except for Jewish populations. That's the only population. Yeah. That, yeah. So just, there's

Simone Collins: always just been this understanding that like the population comes from the rural areas and.

Gets shredded and disappears in the urban areas.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And and our theory on that, which we've done videos on, is Jews should be thought of as like a human ethnic group that is such a city specialist, as we've noted something like 98% of Jews live in an urban center.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That is such an urban specialist and has been for so long that they've essentially evolved an adaptation.

To this environment that allows him to stay cognitively healthy and still breed while in urban environments.

Speaker 5: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I love it when people are like, oh, you know, because I was talking with a reporter today and she goes, you can't possibly live in a city like Manhattan and have a bunch of kids.

And I'm like, well, the Orthodox Jews living in Manhattan would have something to say about that. I think. Yeah,

Simone Collins: they're, they're doing all [00:08:00] right. Yeah, they really are. They're, they're

Malcolm Collins: doing all right. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But I think you also need you, you basically can't do that if you also at the same time, assimilate with mainstream culture in cities and use mainstream urban institutions like the d Lamont family which is I think 10 or 11 kids.

They're the ones who are very musical and have kids in Julliard just left New York City after losing all their money because they lived in a normal. New York townhouse and they shopped at normal restaurants and went out to normal stores and kind of integrated. I mean, like, you know, they still, I have

Malcolm Collins: no idea what they were thinking.

They, they didn't have jobs from what I know. They sold a house somewhere else and then used money. They bused

Simone Collins: for money. I, I think, yeah, I think they kind of expected that, I mean, out of faith that God would provide kind of, I also think that they expected to. Hit more pay dirt from their social media work than they expected.

They get, did get, for example, like a [00:09:00] TLC show, but it didn't get serialized. And I think they kind of hoped that it would, and that maybe they'd get some money out of that. And also I think they have social media, like they have a management company that they currently owe $14,000 to. So like, it seems that that's what they wanted to lean into and it just didn't work out.

Malcolm Collins: That's a shame. Yeah, it's really sad. I mean, I, I can sad see, sad. I mean, we don't have a job right now, you know, subscribe on Patreon, so, but no, like,

Simone Collins: thanks to everyone who has supported us on Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we

Malcolm Collins: are, if we keep going at this rate, we should be able to support ourselves on YouTube.

I'd say it was in like a year and a half. Yeah, people are pointing out though that we're like just

Simone Collins: asking to be demonetized,

Malcolm Collins: so who knows?

Simone Collins (3): I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: I how to train your wife. Alright, so the next trait that you see was in zoos is hyper aggressive aggression and social strain. Ooh. Social

Simone Collins: strain.

What does social strain look like in zoo animals?

Malcolm Collins: So marine mammals, eg. Orcas become hyper aggressive towards each other. We're humans due to isolation from natural pods. Primates might withdraw or fight over [00:10:00] resources. Bears are big. Cats show an increase head tossing or pacing when stress and refine head toss.

Oh, sick burn. It's the head toss. You know, they will bite your arm off.

Oh my God. I am never gonna financially recover from this.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. But anyway but, but consider with, with cities, you get things like road rage

Simone Collins: and Karen's. Just Karen,

Malcolm Collins: just

Simone Collins: Karen's one word. Social aggression. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The zoo.

Animals of women. Karen.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, Karen's don't make sense. It's, it's women. Often sort of. Engaging in an abnormal sort of dominance display, like social dominance display is what it really is. Yeah. When,

Simone Collins: when they are affluent, middle class not threatened and, and have no direct like tribal relation within a dominance hierarchy to the person they're carrying, you know, like, I wanna talk to your manager thing.

This is not someone within your social network who's a direct threat to your, your [00:11:00] position in end dominance hierarchy. So there's also not a lot of like. Normal evolutionary sense for you to mean girl them. Yeah. Like it makes sense to mean girl, someone in your church community or in your like bridge club community if it's the 1950s or something, but not, not a stranger at a store.

I was

Malcolm Collins: tacked, this is mean girling for no reason at all. Somebody who really can't fight back. Yeah.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Interesting. Any of our fans are wondering, am I being a Karen? Sometimes just define it as, do you ever pull social rank on service staff? Mm. Like you, you, you should. There is no reason anyone should ever be pulling social rank on service staff.

In the, in the after of this episode, we're gonna be talking about this, but also it, it's

Simone Collins: also known for, for pulling rank on. Relative strangers. Like it could be someone in your like homeowner's association and you're like, you can't put your trash cans there. That's Karen too.

Malcolm Collins: Right. No, I understand that's Karen, but I think that most Karens who Karen like that are also gonna do it [00:12:00] in other situations.

Yeah. Like how do you know? And if you're like, well, I don't do it much is like, bro. Literally, never in my life have I felt the impulse to pull social rank on a service staff. Yeah. It has never even crossed my mind with Simone. I've never seen her do it once. I've never seen anyone who I dated do it. If you do this, and you've even

Simone Collins: had instances where certain people have put fake cockroaches in your food at restaurants and you don't even say anything to anyone, you just walk away.

Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, we should get video footage of that.

Malcolm Collins: Well I think I, I handled it very with a lot of manners and maturity, to be honest.

Simone Collins: God, yeah. You just got caught up and you're like, are you kidding me? You just walked away. This was in, by the way, the LA restaurant famous for where being the, the, the place where.

L Woods was dumped in Legally Blonde. I don't

Malcolm Collins: know if you knew that novel. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. That was that. So I just, I just, I didn't, I didn't make a f or a [00:13:00] scene. I just stood up and said, are you kidding me?

Simone Collins (2): You walked away

and they were kidding you. You just had no idea for quite some time.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, anyway health and reproductive declines, that's a big one, often leads to obesity, reduced fertility and shorter lifespans. Elephants with foot issues from hard surfaces and polar bears with stereotypic swimming animals may overheat provided food without natural exercise or stress effects which, which can affect breeding.

This is really interesting to me because you, you do see this in humans as well. You do see higher rates of obesity now, definitely as society has further urbanized and you see higher, which is interesting because it means that our response to urbanization is not just predictable. It's natural.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is very interesting to me.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's a good point. That is a good point. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're not, yeah. You, [00:14:00] you'd see this in anyone, huh? Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The, an interesting phenomenon here that they note is that some animals in like they lose their quote unquote wildness, which can in part be their ability to normalize to humans.

They note here that like urban adjacent foxes can become very docile around humans and, and basically not afraid of humans and otherwise. Nice to humans, whereas it's rarer. It for foxes to become tolerant of humans in captivity. That's

Simone Collins: really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Why would that be? Yeah. '

Simone Collins: cause it's like jailers versus somewhat symbiotic people who are like, Ooh, Fox, I'm gonna give you food.

Half my Doritos.

Malcolm Collins: No, some foxes have been genetically conditioned to be like pets.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I know There was that breeding experiment, but then they basically just turned into dogs with floppy ears. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: But this is different.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. This appears different. So, another behavior, I [00:15:00] do animals frequently dis display stereotypic behaviors here that we, we've talked about this to an an extent like rocking, spinning, et cetera that result in boredom.

But this could be seen as analogous to A DHD and hyperactivity which we see a rise of. You know, as we've mentioned before in regards to A DHD. Like, are humans really designed to sit at a desk for like eight hours a day? Like

Speaker 5: real?

Malcolm Collins: No, we, we are not evolved to do that, right? Mm-hmm. And so a lot of populations are just going to go crazy when they do that, which means that you're going to see evolution happen further.

I mean, you don't go crazy when doing that. You actually seem highly adapted. To long-term, mostly stationary works. Yeah. But as long

Simone Collins: you can do that from a treadmill desk. I mean, I'm totally exhibiting the, the tiger pacing.

Malcolm Collins: Not, not even, I actually argue that you're, you're, you're exhibiting a highly adaptive behavior.

I suspect. People who feel an impulse to only want to work alone at their computer while [00:16:00] walking all day are going to have better health outcomes than the ones who only want to sit in front of a computer all day. Or would see doing more than sitting at a computer as like an imposition.

Simone Collins: Fair point.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, some of our Patreon subscribers have pointed out the need to evolve. Either as a culture or whatever. Adaptations that allow us to continue to survive. Whether that's like, yes, we'll,

Malcolm Collins: having that a walking desk or we're, we're helping evolve that I'm, I'm making the next generation that combines your downsides with your strengths and, and, and, or, or, and my strengths.

And your strengths. Hopefully. I mean, and our kids, very interestingly is one thing I was really afraid of is to have kids that would exhibit both of our weaknesses.

Speaker 6: Oh, yeah. And for whatever reason, it'll still happen.

Malcolm Collins: Well, the, the, the assorting hasn't happened that way so far. All the kids seem to have.

Well, I mean, you would argue that that's why to you it feels like they only take after me.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But personality wise, they do [00:17:00] seem to disproportionately take after me.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Except for what our second, second oldest

Simone Collins: are you kidding? He's all about breaking rules. I was never about breaking rules.

Malcolm Collins: Torsten Tors. Yeah. Yeah. He's a little about breaking rules. Yeah.

Simone Collins: He is the only one who doesn't know how to be a good boy. And he lets us know all the time.

Malcolm Collins: I just don't know how to be a good boy.

Speaker 5: Well, how.

Malcolm Collins: And I'm like, I think you do know how to be a good boy. I think that you have decided intentionally to not be a good boy.

He

Simone Collins: knows all about good boy things. We had a 30 fricking minute conversation about good boy things and bad boy things. He knows what's good and weirdly included feeding cat food to cats under good boy things.

Malcolm Collins: I really like that. But

Simone Collins: he, which I kind of muddled though. I was like, I don't know man. If it's like stray cats and it's causing a cat colony, like this may not be a good thing.

I, I, I, I shouldn't be getting, I Did you tell him that

Malcolm Collins: sometimes poisoning cats can be a good boy thing?

Simone Collins: I mean, but I'm going to hell for [00:18:00] this. Oh, well, yeah. Anyway, love you. Let's keep going. Okay. Going all, all right. Alright. Letting you

Malcolm Collins: dig your, I was, I wasn't gonna talk there because I wanted you to dig further.

Going to how but you hatred

Simone Collins: of cats. I love Cat. I very much identify with cats. They're So,

Malcolm Collins: you barely poisoned any cats?

Simone Collins: Barely. I mean, I, I was the one who,

Malcolm Collins: wait, what are you going to say? Oh, yes. You had, when the family dog had to be killed or cat had to be killed. Cats.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You,

Malcolm Collins: you took I'm always the one like,

Simone Collins: who's

Simone Collins (2): like, yeah, let's do it.

Let's go, let's time.

Malcolm Collins: Hmm. You just took responsibility, Simone.

Simone Collins: Well, and I mean the same way with humans. It's not like this is the cat thing specifically. Yeah. When you

Malcolm Collins: had to put humans to to pasture, you did the same thing down. When everyone was like, oh, this person's getting pretty old. Simone just like takes them out back.

It's like, I got it. Don't worry. You guys don't need to get your hands dirty. Just me, Simone Farmhand. [00:19:00] Well, yeah. Anyway. I literally, she would be that way though.

Simone Collins: I don't know what I would do with the body. My problem is bodies. I don't know what to do with bodies. I don't, they're messy. That's why I haven't killed any of our chickens yet.

Malcolm Collins: True. Yeah.

Simone Collins: To process them like killing them's fine. Is

Malcolm Collins: that why you all the feather yet Simone? You don't wanna deal with the body. I, I can see it in your eyes.

Simone Collins: It does. It, it would be a unique nightmare to deal with a, a dead human body. No, I, I, you're a TV

Malcolm Collins: wife. I, I, I, RF audience needs to know this. Alt guys Alt right.

You just get one. The secret to women is get one that is squeamish with dead bodies so she doesn't kill you.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's what you should really be asking in these days. That's the dream. That's the dream.

Malcolm Collins: It's not like, what are your thoughts about

Simone Collins: divorce? It's more like, so what are your biggest fears around, you know, needing to.

Take

Malcolm Collins: someone out. Do you think probability [00:20:00] wise, before I keep going here, it's more likely that you kill me in a future timeline or that you diver divorce me in a future timeline?

Simone Collins: Gosh, yeah. I a again, though, I don't wanna deal with the body, so it'd have to be divorce. If, if, if like it was a video game where like you, you.

You shoot someone and then they just like, you know, break into sparkles, then definitely kill, you know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: Break into sparkles.

Simone Collins: That's how we wish it went. You know, if only, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Lethargy and withdraw animals. Exhibit decreased silk, commotion, huddling, self clasping or apathy, signs of depressive, like stakes and a lack of control.

Mm-hmm. Elephants, citations show head bobbing or circling his coping mechanisms. These are related to neurotransmitter imbalances and boredom in captivity causes depression like symptoms, which we also see in humans. Humans who live in urban environments [00:21:00] depending on how urban the environment is, have much higher rates of depression.

And with, in the urban cultural specialists like the urban monoculture, you see very high rates of depression. Hmm. You also see in captivity. Another thing that we see in urban populations is self harm. You know, pulling out fur which you know, grinding teeth very similar to human you know, cutting or an alive attempts or other things that you see very commonly within human cultures.

Simone Collins: Well, and especially. Isolated people who've been in prison or isolated through hospitalization for the thing I just looked up. Yeah. So yeah, very similar. Very similar.

Malcolm Collins: Another interesting one is abnormal status seeking or dominance displays. Normal

Speaker 6: status seeking,

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I excess aggression towards subordinates or symbolic displays.

Birds puffing up feathers, unnaturally are primate toting resources. Mm-hmm. What's interesting from [00:22:00] this is Karen's, Karen's are an unusual dominance display as we were talking. Hundred

Speaker 6: percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Outside your domain, you're not benefiting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Another thing that you get is enclosures often cause under stimulation, boredom, or overstimulation from crowder.

Noise prompting inattentive, but abnormal behaviors like object manipulation, eg raccoons, creating games with trash or overeating food, which leads to obesity, as we talked about as well. This could be seen as analogous to human th thrill seeking like bungee jumping.

Speaker 5: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Excessive shopping, et cetera.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow. Just to feel something. I never thought about it that way, but that's,

Malcolm Collins: but you did all that stuff. You did. Para jumping was parachute, jumping

Simone Collins: skydiving. Yeah. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: What a foolish thing to do. I cannot believe you did that while we were here.

Simone Collins: What? It's not like, I mean, [00:23:00] aside from my parents, who was gonna miss me, you know?

Malcolm Collins: I was dating you at the time.

Simone Collins: Were you dating me when I went skydiving?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You got it as a reward for our date. That was the, the reward from the competition that you did in your office to, to see who you could force to go dating.

Simone Collins: We already, well, yeah, but, but, but you were gonna break up with me so it didn't matter.

It would just be a cool story. You know, your ex-girlfriend who died in a tragic, skydiving accident. It'd be great. You know, it is a. Do you know how hard it would've been to replace you, Simone? Yeah. You didn't? Yeah, but we didn't it, we didn't know that at the time that you were gonna choose. I, I had mostly figured it out at the

Malcolm Collins: time.

Simone Collins: Well, I hadn't. I was so sure you were gonna find someone at Stanford, so I did nothing wrong. I'm blameless here. Okay. It's just doing the world a favor.

Malcolm Collins: Another interesting one here is mal imprinting. It's called

Simone Collins: so it's like where a duckling just starts following you instead.

Malcolm Collins: [00:24:00] So, animals will form attachments to inappropriate objects or species.

Oh, chy, handwritten birds bonding with humans instead of mates which can lead to or, or even inanimate objects on occasion. This could be seen as very akin to parasocial relationships with humans overly bonding with. People they see on YouTube or on TikTok, et cetera?

Simone Collins: No. Well, no, no, no. I am defending my Parasocial relationships.

They have everything they want in a friendship and more.

Malcolm Collins: I think it's, it's sort of given the direction we're going, but I was just giving an example here that Okay. A standard YouTuber would give. Okay. Simone.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: People come to us verbose are slightly intellectual and brain dead takes. They just want, they just want to feel loved.

That's what we're here for. You know, it's so funny, I was talking with Simone about this, but within our fan base, we seem uniquely conte conceptualized as a mom and dad like role for, for fans is the way that we're [00:25:00] often talked about when I see us talked about in like larger communities which is weird where when you contrast somebody like Ben Shapiro, who's always thought of by most people as like a kid, like what are the young people think I'll go to?

And Benjamin is older than us now, right? And I've always been told I look uniquely young for my age, so it is weird for me to be seen in this mom and dad role all the time. But I think it's because we got famous in relation to having kids. And so people are always contextualizing us within this context of

Simone Collins: well and together.

Malcolm Collins: And together. Yeah. I mean, we're always interacting as a husband and wife and I guess when people see a husband, wife interact and tell me things. The, the evoked set is mom and dad. I'll take

Speaker 6: it.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, no, and as we get older, actually it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. There, there aren't, in terms of conservative influencers any other ones I can think of that work as a married team.

And so it's very hard, like you can say, oh, Jordan Peterson's like my dad [00:26:00] in, in sort of like if I don't have like a stable mom and dad. But the problem is, is. Then who's your mom? Right? Like are you choosing a separate mom who has no relationship with Jordan Peterson and the,

Simone Collins: oh, or like Jordan Peterson, parasocial sons, just in single family households.

Intellectually speaking.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If, if Jordan Peterson's like your intellectual dad, you're in an intellectual single family household. That's

Speaker 6: so sad. Poor things.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, I've noticed a phenomenon to counter this, that, that people have done. Which is to fan pair influencers to serve as mom and dad for them.

The most common, oh, it's like

Simone Collins: Candace Owens and Jordan Peterson.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. The most common one is Asma Gold. And Keisha Keisha, I'll take it. I'll take it. Because she always talks positively about him, and I don't know how much he knows about her. Oh, he must know because people are always shipping them.

So Oh, they are? Oh, constantly. Yeah. It's like a constant thing on her show is, is it that they they're in a fake relationship. Which is really sad. 'cause why, why don't you guys just get in a [00:27:00] relationship? You seem like you, you know.

Simone Collins: Do they both live in Austin? Well, asthma Gold lives in Austin,

Malcolm Collins: but she's in Boston.

Well then that's

Simone Collins: not gonna work out, is it? Well, you can't rhyme through proximity. You need to be close. Physically

Malcolm Collins: move. You've moved for me before, you know, come on, Simone. But it's, it's an odd role to be playing as an adult. When I had always conceptualized myself as somebody who's uniquely hip with young people things.

Like I, I watch a lot of like children's entertainment even now. Oh, that's true. Yes, that is true Probably. Yeah. It, it was so funny. I remember like, I met my cousins and they go, how do you know, and this is even from the generation before this, how do you know everything about all the shows that are popular with our generation?

Yeah. No, it, it has been weird to build this older framing online because one of the instances where it was very funny is somebody was like, oh, this is like a boomer's take on like four chan or four chan video. And I was like. Bro, do you not know how old I am? Like four Chan was becoming a thing [00:28:00] in my generation.

It was my generation that was four chan and built the four chan culture before it became glowy. Right? Like, if, if you are significantly younger than me, then it is unlikely that you ever even got a chance to experience real fortune, which makes me think that whoever said this is actually around the same age I am, they just conceptualized me as an older person.

Simone Collins (2): Hmm. Maybe.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway the next one learned helplessness, loss of autonomy. Constant confinement erodes animals' sense of control leading to learned helplessness. Behaviors like apathy reduce exploration in PT Slike symptoms. And you could see this, if you look at cities with like bureaucratic red tape, economic pressure surveillance is creating a similar sort of environment where you have this sense of loss of control and sense of helplessness.

Speaker 5: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: What can we learn from this destroy cities? I don't know, like that's not gonna happen, but I, I, I, I'd actually say. The benefits, if you can, if you [00:29:00] can work from home of living in a rural environment, are something that you are likely underestimating unless you are dating. Cities are, are, are very, sort of necessary to find a spouse.

But once you find a spouse, unless you're a Jew, in which case, you know, stay in a city, you seem to be adapted to that environment. I'd, I'd strongly suggest countryside living.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, I, I do think cities are a good place to go and build your career and build a network and find your partner 100%.

Like I, I wouldn't dissuade our children from visiting a city. Or living in one, essentially visiting one. But you're going

Malcolm Collins: in a city was the goal of getting out of the city. You're not going 100%.

Simone Collins: It's, it's with the full understanding that you are not going to stay there. And I think a, that's more normalized than many think, at least for those who plan on having children.

But when I was thinking about this subject, I looked to see if researchers had found any meaningful behavioral or psychological difference between urban and and rural populations. [00:30:00] Oh,

Speaker 5: interesting.

Simone Collins: On the surface, and this is human populations it, you would think that the urban populations are specific and very explicitly and clearly better off.

So when it comes to neuroticism, urban residents have lower neuroticism generally more openness, more conscientiousness, more a higher psychological wellbeing, similar levels of life satisfaction. And even more likely to exercise versus rural populations which are more likely to exhibit risky behaviors.

And, and the only area where like they seem strictly worse off on a very surface level is that urban. Residents have lower levels of community engagement versus higher levels among rural populations. But then as I was thinking about this in the context of you describing zoo animal environments, and this was also mentioned in some of the research was it in some of the research when you controlled for things like, [00:31:00] like psychological wellbeing when you controlled for the social services.

And I think health too that people had access to in cities at much higher rates than the differences disappeared. So a lot of it had to do just with city people having so much more access to all of these services and conveniences that are just less there for rural people who now, at least in the United States, are largely left behind.

Even if they're equally qualified for social services, it's just a lot harder to access them. Mm-hmm. And there's, there's less of that. Feeling of a really strong social safety net. And what I think might be going on is that life is also too easy in cities, too convenient, too immediately satisfying.

And, and this goes back to your theme of like, well, zoo animals have everything taken care of for them. You would think, well, why aren't they thriving? You know, they should be totally fine. And in, in many ways, you could also argue, well, people in cities have everything taken care of for them, everything's an arms reach away.

You can [00:32:00] just seamless web or DoorDash like things really simply and easily. You, you can get everything immediately. But that doesn't serve them well. Like they may, they may exhibit thriving on a surface level but that thriving maybe correlates with a level of affluence that leads to sterilization.

Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Kind of going back to that conversation we had where we I was telling you about my grandmother's autobiography and just how dystopian and scary her life was as she was fleeing Paris when the Nazis were invading. And, you know, they're like, they're, they're, they roads are being bombed as they're trying to drive away and the cars are running outta gas and it's just terrifying.

And she has so much drive. To live, to survive. And I mean, I'm sure by like most measures, her health was probably terrible. Her psychological wellbeing was terrible. She was probably very neurotic. You know, all these things like you would think by [00:33:00] all objective measures that she was not thriving. But in the end, this gave her a drive.

To do better, to take risks, to work hard. That produced in the end for her quite a bit of wealth and a family. So, go figure. You need it hard.

Malcolm Collins: I oh, what was I gonna say? I. Who was the point you just made? I remember I wanted to respond to it and some

Simone Collins: people need hardship and if things are too easy to do badly

Malcolm Collins: with a reporter from, from la and she was talking about how you just can't afford to have kids you know, doing what you and she didn't need to live in la, you know?

Because she, you know, travels for her, her job to do the, the stories and everything.

Speaker 5: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: And she's like, you just can't afford to have kids. And I was like, well, you mean you can't afford to have kids without sacrifices? She's like, yeah, but do you really want me to like sacrifice, like my happiness and the things I want to do in order for children and my ability?

And I'm like, I did all that. You know, I'm a similar socioeconomic class of viewer. I should be, you know, given my degree and [00:34:00] everything. And I guarantee you, I am more satisfied with my life than you are

Simone Collins: with your 100%. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You're not really making a sacrifice, not in the way that you think about it.

You're making an immediate sacrifice for a much better life.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and you, I mean, at least we personally have found that we, we traded off luxurious things that we thought would make us happy for. I don't know, very basic or fundamental things that we didn't value, which bring us more contentment and happiness than we could have possibly imagined.

So it's also just not really well communicated how much you're gonna get from the things that you are taking on. And, and for which you are making great sacrifices. Yeah. Some of the big factors, I believe

Malcolm Collins: in a simulated rural environment. If you look out our windows, even though we're next to like a highway, basically you wouldn't know.

It looks like we live in the woods.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it looks like the English countryside, which is so cool. But we're by, we're like literally on a highway. We're on a state route. [00:35:00]

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, it's scary. Love you to death. Have a great day.

Simone Collins: Love you too.

.

Simone Collins (3): Coming in loud and clear sounding sexy as always.

Malcolm Collins: No. What people like the, you being hypnotized and brainwashed cover. I told you the good play. I told you the good play for the cover. Well, you were

Simone Collins: right

Malcolm Collins: as always. And a woman being whipped. Everybody wants to see that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Who

Simone Collins (2): doesn't?

Malcolm Collins: Especially women. I've, I'm, I'm reading enough of their romance novels. My

Simone Collins (2): Yes, yes. There does seem to be my romance mean

Malcolm Collins: addiction these days.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins (2): I

Simone Collins: don't know. Oh wait, that happens in, I don't know, like

Malcolm Collins: it literally Simone in, in the last 10 minutes within the romance manga, I'm reading somebody was whipped.

But the main character or like, no, it was a maid that the main character got whipped for disrespecting her. Oh. I, I like my [00:36:00] main characters pretty evil. That's the thing. That's why I like romance venga so much is women are way okay with more evil like that. Any other book is a sign that you're dealing with the villain character, right?

Like that's how they establish

Simone Collins (2): presumably? Yeah. A bad guy does. I actually don't,

Malcolm Collins: I've watched media before where the, a good character like the protagonist ends up having a servant whipped for disrespecting them. But really. Yeah. Here, here we are. That's, that's my type of book.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, if it's a little bit logical, I could maybe kind of understand it vis-a-vis the, the, the romance novels that I have found my way to.

They're pretty freaking. Disappointing in terms of,

Malcolm Collins: oh no, I've gotta, I've gotta introduce you to, oh yeah, you only listen on audiobook, but you say they're disappointing, but you've listened to like, you'll be like, oh, I hate this series because they're free. So anyway, in book number three, and it's like [00:37:00] Simone, Simone, they're free.

You can go to our romance novels episode where we go over the plots of romance novels. No one believe they're believed me when I

Simone Collins (2): say that. I listen to them to fall asleep. No one believes me.

Malcolm Collins: And in the one I was breeding, the maid did deserve it. She said that because the woman was born illegitimately, they were the same status to a maid.

You know? And that's the nerve. The nerve, right. You know? My

Simone Collins: goodness. Well, I mean, when you put it that way,

Malcolm Collins: I'd, I'd whip a maid for that. Come on, Simone. Yes. I actually, I don't know if I'd have, would I have the stomach to be a noble, I guess if it was like culturally normal.

Simone Collins: I, oh, in terms of like disciplining.

See that's the thing is neither you nor I would ever, like, even if we had infinite money, want staff at our house. 'cause that would be the worst to be surrounded by people. Like why do people opt into this? Like I would pay money. Although there're, [00:38:00] there're like famous reclusive rich people who did tons of things.

Like, and apparently this is also something that was in, I don't know who's, oh yeah. Lex Wexner or whoever Epstein, the, the Victoria's Secret guy who Epstein conned into like, he had power of attorney over all his money and stuff. In his house, he had a dining room table that went to a lower floor and then would come back up with all the food on it.

This also existed in the castle of some reclusive Bavarian prints or something. So like, I think the the autistic. Nobles.

Malcolm Collins: It's, it's funny that you mentioned this, Simone, I've mentioned this before to you. The house I grew up in, in Dallas was a very old, very wealthy like aristocratic house.

Which one? The

Simone Collins: one that we ended up randomly visiting at a Stanford

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no. The one after that is it much larger. I've pointed it out to you, but we would, we weren't able to go inside those Elevated.

Simone Collins: Yeah. In, in Highland Park.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It, it genuinely looks like a, a palace. But [00:39:00] anyway. Yeah. It had pathways in the walls, in all of the rooms so that you never had to see the staff, so that the staff, that's creepy though.

You

Simone Collins: don't wanna know that there's like a place where people can hide, you know what I mean? Like I really appreciate that. Our walls are literally. Thin boards of wood through which you can hear everything.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But that's, that's the degree before, before I was sent off to like a prison system and never lived with my family again after 13.

Like the level of of relat aristocrat that they were, I think is harder, hard to overstate. Yeah, it

Simone Collins: was a really pretty house. I bet I could find a picture of it on Google Maps.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. It the, the, the one that's there now, it was torn down and rebuilt. Oh,

Simone Collins: really?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So the house from my childhood isn't there anymore.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's a shame. Yeah. Very shame.

Malcolm Collins: Wow.

Simone Collins: I thought really, I thought it was like,

Malcolm Collins: that was the house that I lived at where my next door neighbor was Army Hammer. The guy who became the famous actor who then had his career ruined [00:40:00] over a war fetish.

Simone Collins: Was it, or was it just like BDSM?

Malcolm Collins: It was, it was the V stuff that, that got it really hit.

They always get

Simone Collins: you for the V stuff. You gotta keep your mouth shut, you know, people come on. Yeah. I I

Malcolm Collins: mean he was, he was very aggressive about like actually doing it with people and stuff like that. Yeah. I think

Simone Collins: that's the problem. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That's one thing

Simone Collins: if you're like commissioning Cringeworthy fan art, which now you can just use AI to do,

Malcolm Collins: Well, would it work for that?

I dunno.

Simone Collins: Well, I just used AI this morning to create my Little Pony fan art and it was like, damn. I mean, you're not perfect, but not bad guys. 'cause you were, you were telling me that, well, you're only gonna be able to find fan art that's decent and compared, like, when I looked at the fan art I was able to get versus the stuff that AI generated, I was actually really impressed.

I'm gonna

Malcolm Collins: check out the My Little Pony title card you put together. Yeah, actually I, I have

Simone Collins: it open right now. I've, I've, I've made a, I've made a couple.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, they look, they're little authoritarian ponies. Look at that.

Simone Collins: [00:41:00] Yeah. They're, they're like, they're, they're really not bad. I was, I was very surprised.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I thought it would have problems with Nazi ponies, but it doesn't appear to

Simone Collins: no. You know, I think, you know, maybe it's the vibe shift suddenly, like, you know,

Malcolm Collins: it brought the fashion back to, back to fascism.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I like, I like the, the storm one is pretty good. Oh, see, that was

Simone Collins: Brock and that was that was, that surprised me.

The, the more like realistic figurine fan art. Yeah. That was Brock. And then the illustration based ones were from Black Forest, which I just think is fantastic. I'm such a huge fan of Black Forest, so Yeah. It's gonna be, it's gonna be tough to choose. Maybe we should ask the people on Patreon for their choice

Malcolm Collins: of, of the pony one.

Okay. Yeah.

Simone Collins: You gotta, yeah. Choose.

Simone Collins (2): Choose a ch. You choose your pony,

Speaker: So you guys are gonna flip the rock and show me a lobster. Daddy is on this rock. Yeah, that one. That rock. Okay, so go flip it. Okay.[00:42:00]

Do you want me to do it? Flip it to me. You might die. I see the tail. You see the tail? No. You see.

Speaker 3: Where it, do you see it somewhere? You see the lobster yet? It sounds like it's somewhere. Do you think he ran away? Yeah, I think he got away. Maybe he got dead under the rock for some reason here, because I was moving, I, because see signs of lobsters, I see signs, some lobsters kind.

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone delve deep into understanding Donald Trump's theological beliefs, challenging the initial assumption that Trump lacks a specific theology. The discussion uncovers that Trump has a detailed personal theology heavily influenced by Norman Vincent Peale's teachings and 'The Power of Positive Thinking.' This self-help-centric Christianity shaped much of Trump's behavior and decision-making. Additionally, the episode explores Trump's recent efforts in international peace negotiations and how his contemplation of legacy and afterlife might be influencing his moves to end conflicts around the world.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today was, it's one of these episodes that's just stunning for me because I come into it being like. You know what? I'm gonna try to untangle what Trump's true theological beliefs are. Okay? And my. Intuition going into this is he just didn't really have a theology. And he just had never thought deeply about this particular subject.

Right. Just Trump is

Simone Collins: great and everyone knows it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he's the best. As I tied dug into it though, I learned that that is very much not true. Whoa. As a. Fairly detailed theology that he doesn't share with the public a lot. So just, you know, this is this, it says not what he signals to the public anymore.

But when you understand his theology, a lot of his behaviors that otherwise seem. Crazy or insane or don't make sense all of a sudden makes sense. In fact, I would argue that to understand and predict Trump's behavior, you need to understand his theology. And the other weird thing about this [00:01:00] theology is while it is not a traditional Christian theology, it came from a traditional Christian Church.

Oh, but just a unique one. Oh, wow. And, and we're gonna go further here because I also think that his theology has changed a lot recently, given that he thinks he's about to die or not about to die, but he's sort of like, it's the end of my life. You know? He's, he's contemplating his legacy. Yeah.

The, the quote recently from him that I absolutely love is if I can see, he's talking about ending the war in the Ukraine. He goes, if I can save 7,000 people a week from being killed, I wanna try and get to heaven if possible. Trump said, I'm hearing that I'm not doing well. I'm really at the bottom of the totem pole, but if I can get to heaven, this will be one of the reasons.

And I just love this idea of Trump beginning to get worried. Because, you know, he is cheated on spouses. He doesn't really go to church. He doesn't seem to understand much about the Bible. If we're, if we're gonna talk about, like, not understanding the, there's the famous quote [00:02:00] that I love. In the Bloomberg interview when asked what his favorite Bible verse is.

And you know, he just like, the Bible's my favorite book.

Speaker: Okay. You mentioned the Bible. You've been talking about how it's your favorite book. And you said, I think last night in Iowa, some people are surprised that you say that. I'm wondering what one or two of your most favored bible, uh, verses are and why? Well, I, I wouldn't want to get into it because to me that's very personal.

Trump: You know, when I talk about the Bible, it's very personal there. So I don't want to get into verses. I don't want to get into. There's verse, it means a lot to you that you think about or cite. The, the Bible means a lot to me, but I don't want to get into specifics, even to cite a verse that you like. No, I don't wanna do that.

I mean, you, an Old Testament guy or a New Testament guy. Uh, probably equal. I think it's just an incredible, the whole Bible is an incredible, I joke, uh, very much so. They always hold up the art of the deal. I say my second favorite book of all time, but, uh, I just think the Bible is just something very special.

Malcolm Collins: I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I can't name a book from, I can't name a quote from it, but it's my favorite book. And usually just

Simone Collins: a very personal thing. I'm not gonna talk about it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then, and then [00:03:00] during a Family Leadership summit interview, he said.

Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness if I'm not making any mistakes? Which is a very Trump thing to say. It's, it does not align with traditional Christian theology. Then once when he was giving a speech to a university campus, he called, and this is the type of thing I do because I don't go to church often.

He said two Corinthians instead of second Corinthians.

Speaker 4: And I, I asked Jerry and I asked some of the folks, because I hear this is a major theme right here, but two Corinthians right, two Corinthians three 17,

Malcolm Collins: oh. Which is exactly the type of thing I do. I'd say two Corinthians or something. Totally. Yeah. But I do, I do that because I don't go to church and I'm reading from a sheet of paper. Yeah. That,

Simone Collins: that's more like, yeah. Just spoken norms. Not, not necessarily a sinus.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no. But , it indicates that he doesn't actually, and we know this from, you know, he, he goes like on holidays and stuff like that. So he is aware, you know, maybe not, not that high up, not that going to church more often in Christian beliefs gets you into heaven more easily.

I'm [00:04:00] just saying like he is aware that he has some vices. Right. And also the way he related to Christianity historically. So. He referred to the Christian Sacrament of communion as drinking, quote unquote, my little wine and eating, quote unquote, my little cracker, and that it made him feel, quote unquote, feel cleansed.

Little wine, my little cracker.

Simone Collins: Why does he say everything 10 times better than anyone else? I, I know. I love it.

Malcolm Collins: But so then in one Christian church setting, he said,

Speaker 5: I love you Christians. I'm not Christian. I love you.

Malcolm Collins: I love you Christians. I'm not Christian. Now a lot of people think he meant to say, I am a Christian. I love you Christians. I am a Christian.

Although that makes less sense. I think he might not have interpreted himself as a full Christian at this time, period. Hmm. So, . Chu born Presbyterian. His parents were Methodists before this. Hmm. But when he was young, the family shifted to a new church. This was in the 1970 seventies and it was called the Marble Collegiate Church in Manhattan. [00:05:00] A reform church run by a guy named Norman Vincent Peele.

Okay. Okay. Now you might be like, what's so special about a church run by a guy named Norman Vincent Peele?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, he invented a philosophy that you've probably heard about called The Power of Positive Thinking.

Simone Collins: No Blended Christianity

Malcolm Collins: with Motivational Self-Help.

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: Oh no. Now you're beginning to see, oh.

So Trump grew up going to a church that taught self-help, principles of the eighties through the pulpit. Wow. Or not eighties, early seventies, when it was really beginning to pick up. So, so, and, and Trump really liked this guy called Peel. He calls him a, a, a mentor of his, he prays his preaching style.

We'll go into Trump's connection to him. But, he went to church and drank the Kool-Aid. I mean, [00:06:00] hello

Now I want you to listen to what Trump says about Peel in this particular tape, both to understand just how much Trump actually really enjoyed and took seriously the lessons that Peel was teaching from the pulpit, but also how Trump relates to traditional. Christian concepts like asking God for forgiveness instead of going out and attempting to improve yourself on your own, which is a very self-help thing to do.

Like it reframes some of when you hear stuff and you're like, that's so sacrilegious to, to approach it in this way. When you hear it in the context of how Trump is thinking about it, you're like. Oh, he's not thinking about it in a traditional religious context. He's thinking about it in terms of a, how do I improve myself through the self-help principles I learned at church context.

I.

Speaker 8: I love my church. And Norman Vincent Peel, the great Norman Vincent Peele was my pastor. The [00:07:00] power of positive thinking. Everybody's heard of Norman and I love my church. . He was so great. He would give a sermon you never wanted to leave. Sometimes we have sermons, and every once in a while we think about leaving a little early, right? Even though we're Christian, Dr. Norman Vincent Peel. Frank , would give a sermon.

I'm telling you, I still remember his sermons. It was unbelievable. And what he would do is he'd bring real life situations, modern day situations into the sermon. And you could listen to him all day long. When you left the church, you were disappointed that it was over. He was the greatest guy.

But he was a great, the, the p wrote the Power of Positive Thinking, which is a great book, but, but have you ever asked God for forgiveness?

I am not sure I have. I just go and try and do a better job from there. I don't think so. I think I, if I, if I do something wrong, I think I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't [00:08:00] Now when I take, you know, when we go and church and, and when I drink my little wine, which is about the only wine I drink and have my little cracker, I guess that's this form of asking for forgiveness.

And I do that as often as possible because I feel cleansed. Okay. But, uh, you know, to me that's important. I do that. But in terms of officially, I should, I see, I could say absolutely and everybody. I don't think in terms of that. I, I think in terms of let's go on and let's make.

And I would point here that Trump knows that what he's supposed to say to appease a Christian audience is, yes, I have you. You see, he says, like, I could say yes and in this conversation in any controversy that come out of this,

Speaker 8: see, I could say absolutely and everybody.

but I'm trying to be as honest as possible about how I relate to God in this moment.

Malcolm Collins: Peel was influenced by a guy called Earnest Holmes, founder of the Science of the Mind, a new thought movement whom Peele regarded as a spiritual mentor. The influence began in the 1920s when Peele studied Holmes [00:09:00] works, adopting ideas like fearless living and shifting focus away from self-doubt Thought, through thought affirmations of God's presence overall, his beliefs blended orthodox Christian elements with new thought philosophy, prioritizing personal empowerment through faith over transcendent doctrines like salvation, solely through Jesus Christ, which some. Critics argued or diluted Christian tenets peel's teachings which Trump encountered through family attendance at the church emphasized avoiding negative thoughts, picturing success and believing one's abilities as a pathway to achievement.

Often framed with a quasi-religious tone of self-sufficiency and prosperity as God's will. Mm-hmm. Trump's version amplified into a worldview where relentless positivity, denial of setback. And the self-belief override external realities, sometimes veering into what critics called magical thinkings. And so a another description of what Peel taught, just Peel was out.

The Trump framing here was [00:10:00] positive affirmations and visualizations of God's health. Essentially it was a form of Christianity dedicated to Bel a, a form of like wishy thinking as we call it. Like that book, the the, the secret, right? Like right. If, if you believe something enough, that thing will come.

You'll manifest

Simone Collins: it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you'll manifest it. But it was structured a little differently in a way that I think is actually more emotionally helpful, which is you don't believe in some sort of external goal enough. It's that if you believe in yourself's ability to achieve that goal enough, it will manifest.

And, and, and so it wasn't like traditional manifestation, but it was definitely related to that. But you also needed to believe that you were not capable. Like any failure that you have, you reframe as a success in some way. And all of this is combined with repeated affirmation. And so where do we get evidence that this is sort of what influenced Trump's actual religion?

Right. So [00:11:00] basically I'm saying Trump's religion, like his true religion. If you boil down what he really believed, I think before these last few years, when all of a sudden he's surrounded by Christians and not like New York Socialites was self-help. That was his religion. And a, an extremist form of self-help focused on self-belief.

So in 2000 Wow. Psychological today, interview Trump stated quote, what helped is I refuse to give into the negative circumstances and never lost faith in myself. Note here that he sort of transformed this belief from a faith in Christ or God to a faith in himself. I didn't believe I was finished even when the newspapers were saying so.

He added that a firm believer in the power of being positive. And this mirrors something that Peel said, which was never thinking of failing and avoiding fear, thoughts, framing self, a face as a metaphysical force for overcoming adversity. In the art of the Deal though, came out in 1987, Trump [00:12:00] writes about envisioning grand successes before they happen, such as mentally mapping out deals and properties.

He expands on this in the think big kick. I'm gonna change it to, but here 'cause I'm not gonna curse on a show. Kids might be watching. Saying, if you're going to be thinking, you may as well think big and advising readers to see yourself as victorious. A direct nod. Appeals techniques of quote, formulating a mental picture of success and holding onto it.

Tenaciously end quote. This implies a metaphysical belief that focused thoughts attract results akin to new thoughts. Law of attraction. In Trump, never give up. How I turn my biggest challenges into successes. Trump recounts turning financial lows like his 1990s debt crisis into wins by maintaining positivity.

Quote, you will be attacked for trying to change anything in quote, but quote unquote never give up. He ties this to peel's influence. Emphasizing self-confidence and refusing negativity are key to [00:13:00] manifesting success even when the facts suggests failure. In the book how To Get Rich, 2004. Where he discusses initiative, staccato thinking styles and references, figures like Carl Young for psychological depths, but pivots to practical positivity.

Quote, believe in yourself, exclamation mark, have face in your abilities. Exclamation mark. Echoing the peel verbatim. He recommended self-help books aligning with this, such as peel's work and others on strategic thinking, revealing a curated worldview of mind powered success. And then if you think about weird behaviors, he has like his habit of plastering his name all over his projects like Trump Tower casinos, everything like that.

This stems from one of peel's teachings, quote, raise one's estimate of ability by 10% in quote and desecrate obstacles. During his 1990s bankrupts, he avoided admitting failure instead, reframing them as strategic moves, declaring a quote. Never lost face in [00:14:00] himself.

Simone Collins: Mm. Wow. This explains so much

A great example of something that can seem really confusing until you understand that as a kid when he was in religious services, he learned that to be a good Christian, you're supposed to not admit mistakes. Was him never mentioning anything about the Cofefe tweet? Never, never saying, oh, I, you know, I was just sleep deprived and I just tweeted out something random, but pretending it was some sort of like four D chess move.

Um, and it ended up, I think, paying off for him in the eyes of his fans. What?

Malcolm Collins: in terms of magical thinking in politics.

Yeah, it does. For me, like the moment I heard this, I was like, oh my God, Trump is actually a deeply religious person, and it was a form of Christianity that was actually taught to him in a church.

Simone Collins: Well, and it makes him seem less. It doesn't sound great to say this, but it makes him seem less sociopathic like he wasn't doing this just because he was like, well, I'm just the best and I believe in myself.

He was taught this. He taught from a very young age, was taught at church and that this [00:15:00] is godly way to live life. This is the pious way to live life. This wasn't just him like sociopathically and and pathologically believing in himself. It was him adhering to the faith he was presented with in childhood.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They and I and, and it was a form of Christianity talked to him. It was in a local church. Yeah. That branded itself as a reform church. Yeah. Now I, many people may be like a church that teaches you to believe in yourself more than you believe in Christ, and, you know, all of that. That may, they may be like, that's not like actual Christianity.

Okay. Whatever. But it's what Trump was taught with Christianity. Yeah. As he was growing up. Yeah. From a church. Yeah. And I find this really fascinating and it explains bizarre behaviors, like putting his name and giant letters on everything. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if you, if you look in politics, you also see this, this manifesting power like him, him sort of believing in this, in the way he talks such as calling the [00:16:00] 2016 popular vote loss in the 2020 election results as moral victories.

And then when he was. Early dealing with COVID-19. If you look at this with peel's philosophy of depreciate every so-called obstacle he, he downplayed it in the early days saying it'll disappear like a miracle. Like if he believed that that is what would eventually happen. And this is something that is commonly believed when you go into this, this branch of, metaphysics. If you look at personal alliances and public endorses, Trump has publicly praised Peele as the greatest guy, and as his pastor officiating his first wedding and showing lifelong integration, his family ties. Father Fred's friendship was Peel reinforces shaping metaphysics where self-belief equates to divine favor.

Basically to him, believing in yourself is how you affirm your belief in God. And this belief system feels very intuitive to me because most of my parents were into [00:17:00] this to an extent when I was growing up. And I remember being taught some of these ideas you know, like you, you just believe in yourself enough you know, things will work out for you, like, right,

Simone Collins: like your mom being like.

Make more money and you're like, it, it doesn't exactly work like that. And she's like, just go and tell them to give you more pay. Like,

Malcolm Collins: well, she'd also always scold me if I ever said something negative about myself. Oh yeah. Like if you say negative things about yourself, then those things will manifest in your life.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah. She was weird about that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And so I like grew up, like that's another reason I probably don't see this as particularly crazy because my parents said this sort of stuff all the time. That's, yeah. This was a philosophy that was really big for people growing up in the seventies. Yeah. And, and eighties.

And so I think a lot of our fans who grew up during that period are like, oh yeah, I remember this was like a cool avant-garde intellectual philosophy during that period. Right. Like Oprah was really into a version of this. Remember through the, that sounds about right. The secret. She was a big promoter of [00:18:00] that.

But I think the secret is a more toxic version of this. I actually think that there are some psychological benefits to Trump's way of interacting with this. But I also wanna go over, we're gonna go over all the other places where he talks about religion because Okay. Okay. I find this really interesting to try and to peel out his religious journey.

But before I do that, I wanna go over. This idea of his evolving spirituality. Because if you, if you look at these older things, like I'm not a Christian, right? I don't think he fully identified as Christian. And why would he? Like he was in New York socialite, living in New York, socialite, the, the parts of the lesson that he took apart the most were the, the psychobabble stuff and the stuff that he didn't take on board was the Christian stuff.

Maybe 'cause it just wasn't taught that much. Well, and I don't think it was

Simone Collins: pervasive, like the kind of Christianity that was. Big in the nineties, for example, was very different from the type of Christianity today, and it was. Not in like New York urban culture. Really?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, so, I do [00:19:00] believe though that he went back to Christianity at one point.

I think maybe originally, like people know we originally converted to our form of Christianity because we thought it was what was best for our kids, not because of a belief that it was true. We came to a belief, and it was true after converting for our kids. And I think that this happens for a lot of people, like a lot of people can say, did JD Vance convert to Catholicism?

Because Peter Thiel was his sort of what's the word here? PA Patron, right? And he, he wanted to win elections, honestly. 75% chance that the original conversion was in part motivated by political beliefs and, and political opportunism. But I believe now he is 100% Catholic. Same with Trump.

I think Trump originally started framing himself as Christian again, not understanding what Christianity was, making these early mistakes, like why would I ask God for forgiveness? I don't make mistakes, right? Like. To him. That's a totally normal thing to say given the church he grew [00:20:00] up in. But because he's been surrounded by believers for so long now, I think that he's beginning to change in these beliefs and really deeply believe in something closer to a traditional form of Christianity.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And with that, he's, he's now applying his metaphysical framework to this new Christianity to like the, oh God, if heaven does exist, I have sinned a lot. Like, and a lot of people think I've sinned a lot, so like maybe well I gotta do something big so that when I get to the pearly gates and they're like, what about all those times you cheated?

What about all those times? You know, you lusted after other people. What about all those times? He's like, ha, ha. Wait, wait a second here. 7,000 people a day. 7,000 innocent souls a day I saved by ending that war. Can you, can you. It must a day, a day, he's going in there with the art of the deal. He's, he's, he's stacking the hand.

Oh

Simone Collins: my God. [00:21:00]

Malcolm Collins: I almost promise you, like Heath, hes in his head. That's the way heaven works in his brain, is he gets up there and he's like, okay, I am stacking the deck in my favor. I'm gonna do all these, I'm working all these good deeds right before I, right before the end here. And, and I'm okay with that, right?

Like, this is a, this is a, a weight of you. It's, it's not. Difference from like indulgences in early Catholicism. Right, right. It, there are, well, I mean, it's,

Simone Collins: it's even better 'cause he, he's actually doing the thing. I mean, indulgences was just getting people to pray for you. It wasn't materially Yeah. So it, it's even better.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. He's just like I, he is literally trying to pay in good deeds, which great for him. Nobody tell him that. Most Christians today believe it's it's faith alone. Even Catholics, by the way, a lot of people think Catholics don't believe it's faith alone. Oh, yeah. But Catholics do believe it's faith alone.

But good deeds are also important for like. Another reason I don't fully understand it, but like, I listen to a lot of Theologists on YouTube and this is what they tell me. But anyway don't, don't tell him that or he is gonna stop doing good. Faith [00:22:00] alone seems to be

Simone Collins: like a, a cop out. That's, that's depressing.

Malcolm Collins: But it's not just that. I also think that Trump genuinely cares about people dying, apparently to insiders who know him. It's something that he obsesses over a lot, is people dying in wars. And, and that he talks about a lot. He comes across

Simone Collins: as very, a deeply empathetic person who's, who's affected by human suffering on a profound level.

Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: So, oh. I now wanna get into a piece that I really liked because I think it shows Trump's sort of quest on this front that was put out by the free press. You know, I love it called Trump's Quest for Heaven. And it's a short piece but I think it really shows is, is, is chase here?

So Trump is getting a fair deal of criticism for his efforts to end Russia's war against Ukraine. Just check out what Peter Baker, the New York Times Chief White House correspondent has been saying about it. And while BAK is no dummy, and I sort of am, I'm kind of impressed with this round of Trump diplomacy.

Trump didn't get the ceasefire he was hoping for when he [00:23:00] met with Vladimir Putin in Alaska last week. But I liked it when a few days later he was in the White House standing with Vladimir Zelinsky and seven European leaders. Trump critics insisted that the Europeans went there to babysit and prevent another fight with Zelinsky in the Oval Office.

But to me it looked like a United West led by the us. Trying sincerely to end the war while showing Putin that we would be very, that he would be very stupid to start another one. And now in a welcome departure from his previous hostile stance for s Kiev, Trump is talking about security guarantees for Ukraine.

They all laughed about Zelensky new suit look in the Oval Office, and there was no spat between him and the vice president. The whole thing was very much like mom and dad might actually work this out in time for Christmas. The Europeans are stepping up and some credit has to be given to Trump. In that regard, they're increasing their defense spending the German, they're rolling out panzers again, which naturally makes us all a bit nervous, but it's probably a good thing in this case, and we can't be sure that they would be doing any of this.

If Trump [00:24:00] hadn't cajoled and brow beaten them for years by repeatedly threatening to withdraw from nato, he might have very well. Have saved it. Could this be the art of the deal in action? I don't wanna go that far. That's the other person saying that I actually think it is. And I think something that people missed in a lot of the sort of, positioning that Trump has, where he'll take one position, then he'll take the other position, then he'll take the other position.

They're like, oh, this is like a failure of negotiation, but it isn't at all a failure. This is what you need to do to negotiate. If people don't know that you can switch teams, then they have no reason to compromise with you. So. Suppose you're in a room with Putin or something like that. And I love this masterful troll that Putin's troops did after the US Putin meeting.

And everyone was like, oh, Trump endorsed Putin by bringing him in the limo. And so they put US flags next to Russian flags on their APCs invading Ukraine. Because of course progressives freak out about that. But then Trump. Immediately goes back and remember the first time he, he meets with Zelensky, he basically shouts them outta the room.

You know, [00:25:00] they're like, how are you not grateful about any of this? They got in a big fight with Zelensky, which as a sign to Putin. So like, you're going to Putin, basically Trump is like going to Putin. Like I have shown publicly that I am willing to play game with you. Right,

Speaker 3: right.

Malcolm Collins: Putin then goes, I'm not gonna end the war.

I'm not gonna budge on anything. Trump then at first Signals, you know, and he did this through a number of like tweets and stuff like this. Like, I'm very angry at Putin about this, right? But then he goes Putin sort of finalizes it in this peace talk where, where Putin's just like, I'm not gonna do it.

So Trump had given Putin the most he could possibly give Putin to put Putin on the good foot if, if Putin was ever gonna be persuaded to do this. Trump needed to first have the big falling out with Zelensky. He then needed to be nice to Putin. He then needed to have this meeting with Putin while also making it clear that he would switch to the other side.

Putin doesn't agree. Then Trump has this meeting with Zelensky reaffirms us support of, of, of, of Ukraine in the war financially. And at the same time, by doing this flip-flop, he gets Europe to fund Ukraine [00:26:00] even more instead of leading us to foot the bill. It sounds good to me across the board it's fairly clever diplomacy.

And a lot of people just fail to see it because I guess they expect politicians to just always have one perspective, which I get right. Like they're used to that. But you can't make a deal if you always have one perspective, because then it's always just a compromised version of that perspective.

You can't go from one party to the other party and be like, well, if I can't make a deal with you, then I'll make a deal with them. And then to continue to the speech, because this is where he, he added the thing about Trump bartering, you know, being like those 7,000 people, Trump seems to really, genuinely wanna in, in this war.

Really, who knows what goes on in Trump's head, but he is gotten good at his peace brokering thing. Earlier this month, he got Armenia and other Bajan to stop shooting each other. In June, he helped a broker, another peace deal between the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Rwanda. This might be small potatoes compared to Russia, Ukraine, but let's also remember that his bombing of Iran's major nuclear enrichment sites.

Ended the [00:27:00] 12 day war between Iran and Israel. He might not be terrible at this exclamation mark, and I agree with that. I mean, I think a lot of people were like, why is the US getting involved in this particular bombing? But we know Israel wasn't gonna stop the bombing until they felt that they had disarmed Iran in terms of its nuclear projects.

The US basically is like, Hey. We'll come in, we'll do this one big, you know, bunker buster bomb thing, or few big bunker buster bombs, but on the condition you stop bombing immediately after. And they stop bombing after. And then keep in mind, Tyran keeps bombing them for a while after that. And so it took a while to negotiate this, but they got it handled right, like.

That war could have really escalated, and it was Trump's intervention that all of the Democrats criticized him for. That gave Israel the peace of mind to stop the conflict.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And people can say, why doesn't he in the war in Gaza? And it's like, well, that is a much more existential crisis for Israel.

And I don't really see how that gets resolved. It it [00:28:00] in any, in any way that people want to talk about. But i, I, I think that Trump, and I think that Trump has shrewdly not overly tried to engage there. I don't think that there's much we can do to Israel to get them to end that conflict.

That's not just gonna drive a wedge between our relationship without achieving the set goals. And the more you drive a wedge between that relationship, the more Israel just no longer has any leash at all to do whatever it wants, which I think a lot of these European powers don't worry or don't really grok.

Like if you've already said. I just won't engage with you at all. I won't give you, you know, any funding. I won't connect with you in any way. Why would they, why would they listen to what you're pushing? And no amount of, of cutting things is going to cause Israel to cave on an issue that's so existential for them.

Right? And I note here I also think that Trump as, as in his last administration, did a good job at ending wars. It just seems to be something that he's exceptionally good at and fairly dedicated to. Like he sees this as one of his jobs. Trump's an [00:29:00] old man. He's presumably thinking about his legacy.

Some have speculated that he wants a Nobel Prize, which I'm sure is also true, but also I'd safely wager that is never going to happen. He probably also wants an Oscar, Tony, and any other trophy he can get his hands on. But he'll call up Fox and Friends on Tuesday to announce a different motive behind his diplomacy and that's getting into heaven.

But I think. And this is where, sorry, this is where they had the 7,000 people line. If I can save 7,000 people a week from getting killed I want to try that and get into heaven if possible. Trump said, I'm people, I'm not doing well. I'm really at the bottom of the totem pole, but if I can get into heaven, this will be one of the reasons.

Simone Collins: I love it.

Malcolm Collins: And then the, the person writing the article goes on to say for a second there, Trump sounded like an old school Catholic, which he very much is not having been raised a Presbyterian, and it's the first time I can remember this president musing about the afterlife. I respect Trump, how Trump never pretended to be an evangelical, despite the tremendous weight in GOP primaries.

When [00:30:00] he first ran for president, who can forget when he said he'd never in his life asked God for forgiveness. He's a sinner and a somewhat proud one. Trump's religious foundation, such as it is, was largely forwarded under the guidance of Protestant. Preacher turned self-help guru. Norman Vincent Peel.

Best known for the book The Power of Positive Thinking Peele, even Officiated Trump's first wedding. But while Trump certainly took confidence, building aspects of peel's, thinking seriously, one of peel's most famous pearls of self-help tude quote, make a true estimate of your ability, then raise it 10%.

In quote, this president has never appeared partial to the whole Jesus thing. I'm not naive enough to say that perhaps Trump is changing or growing before our eyes. As of now, as far as I'm concerned, he's the same venal jerk he's always been. Then again, perhaps this is a guy who facing the end of his political re.

Career in just a few short years is reckoning a bit with his mortality and deepening ever so slightly. And if he's motivated to end wars by the [00:31:00] prospect of seeing those pearly gates on, which he presumably will install a gold mailbox, it's a good trade to me. Actually, that, that's actually a good point.

I, I wonder even trump's mind, the pearl gates are gold. And not, not Pearl. I'm, I'm sure they are. When he pictures them, it's gold. And the angel is at a gold podium. Well

Simone Collins: actually I think in so many cartoons they are just drawn as being gold. It's more visually appealing.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Well, I just Google

Simone Collins: image search Pearly gates.

Yeah. They often look pretty freaking gold.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Actually. Do you think it has a, do you think it has a, a big T on it that that opens up? Yeah. Just put his name on it. Donald Trump. Donald. I, I would love that. Did they do a south park about that? I, I feel like. People would, would absolutely freak out about the idea of like Trump buying heaven and like branding it all Trump themed.

And that, that sounds like a Salesforce episode to me.

Simone Collins: Well, in the first one of the new season they did, or second one, [00:32:00] they, they went to heaven to get the,, Mexicans or whatever.

Malcolm Collins: To, oh yeah. To arrest the Mexicans. You were like shooting them all to, to deport them all. Yeah. The, that was, that was great.

Yeah. But yeah, so this to me is a really interesting thing to think about. One that people who were earlier, you know, you can tell from this guy's writing, he's. Trump skeptic, but he's like in this one area, Trump seems to be fairly dedicated to, to win the battles he can win and to not attempt the battles he can't win, and to engage in areas where there's conflict, where even the US isn't involved.

I do like I, I do and, and people can be like, well, are you suggesting that Trump was lying when he first said he was a Christian? And that it took a while for him to, like, I. Yeah, probably. I mean, we know that Trump has lied about things before. I don't think that there's like some Republican faction that thinks that Trump is not a person who would lie to [00:33:00] get a deal in his favor, right?

But I also think that now. So close to the end of his life, he is genuinely motivated, boast by the compassion he has for other people but by beginning to reengage metaphysically while keeping in mind his metaphysical roots. So what, what do you get here, Simone?

Simone Collins: So there's variation, but the most commonly cited by the, the White House and the Trump administration are the nagorno.

ACH conflict. This is between Armenia and Azerbaijan. He helped broker a peace agreement in August, 2025. So like actually just now that ended decades of violence. There's a Democratic Republic of Republic of Congo in Rwanda. So in June of 2025, the DRC and Rwanda signed a peace agreement that was brokered at the White House.

Oh, that

Malcolm Collins: one was really bad. That one had a genocide as a component of it.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and, and the whole peace agreement was aimed at ending the cross border violence in a major humanitarian crisis. So [00:34:00] that's, that's pretty cool. I mean, I guess, you know, TBD 'cause it was just June. How that goes. Then three is Serbia and Kosovo.

Trump claims credit for facilitating peace talks in normalization between Serbia and Kosovo, which have been in conflict since the breakup of Yugoslavia. And then Egypt and Ethiopia, the Grand Ethiopian. Oh, Ethiopian Renaissance Dam Dispute, which I've never heard of.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, that, oh, I've read a lot on this.

It's really bad. It was almost certainly gonna, that's not gonna lead to a war. Now,

Simone Collins: there were tensions between Egypt and Ethiopia. Oh, Ethiopia. Over the Nile Dam, which had raised the risk of armed escalation. I

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'll say there's a

Simone Collins: dam on the, on the

Malcolm Collins: Nile. Yeah. So it almost certainly would've caused a, a war.

So. Ethiopia is is upstream of Egypt on the Nile, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nile. Big river, right? Big important. If you put a dam in the Nile, you can have most of the power needs. Is the entire country of Ethiopia met? Oh, now Egypt to loses [00:35:00] fresh water. Egypt's entire civilization is built on the Nile. If you, if you look at where people live in Egypt, it's all right around the Nile and they don't even have enough fresh water as it is in Egypt for their existing crops and infrastructure needs.

Yeah. So if it, it's, it's an existential issue for both countries for you know, ethiopia's free power for a huge chunk of their country. For Egypt, it is. Into their ability to live. You can see why both countries would go for it.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah, I totally get that now that that is totally fair. And then India and Pakistan, the White House includes Trump's diplomatic involvement to deescalate border tensions between India and Pakistan, particularly over kashmere.

No formal peace treaty was signed, but violence reportedly subsided after US led negotiations. That was flaring up in May, so, yeah, no.

Malcolm Collins: And, and the countries have nominated him for a Nobel Prize.

Sorry, it was Pakistan [00:36:00] only, not India as well, , because India has some weird thing about foreign powers intervening in the, in the mediations. But anyway, Pakistan who nominated him for a peace prize stating, , it was for his decisive diplomatic intervention and pivotal leadership.

Malcolm Collins: So for that I can't remember if it was in India or Pakistan, but Go Trump. I think Pakistan actually.

Yeah. I mean, cops, so, yeah. , He, he definitely, from their perspective was the key player in ending the conflict. You know, you don't do that if, if you don't think that he was the one who got this done, and that could have been a nuclear war, that could have been an absolutely egregious war. No,

Speaker 3: absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: But can you look at the ones from the last administration of his 'cause those are all from this administration. I don't want what the, what he, and also look at the context of them. But the other thing I wanted to note here is the war end with the Ukraine. So a lot of people, they'll look at me and they'll be like, well, you don't just wanna end a war.

Like, what about all the people who have died so far in the war, in the Ukraine? Like, how dare he end this on Russia's terms, IE [00:37:00] keeping the existing land, and even in some areas pushing back. Passed the existing front lines. Mm. I actually think the deal that he was trying to get from Russia of keeping the existing land and pushing past the front, front lines in a few areas was an extremely good deal from the Ukrainian perspective, especially if Ukraine could loop in UN membership to it.

I don't think that they'd be able to get NATO membership, but I think they could have gotten you in membership if they made the territorial concessions. Mm-hmm. And people could say, Malcolm, Malcolm. Malcolm, how could you say that? And I'm like, bro, Ukraine has a fertility rate of like 1.2. They're basically halfing their population.

Every generation. Russia is at about the same level. Okay. In, in the new world order where. Populations of productive individuals are falling rapidly. What matters is your population, not how much land you have. Mm-hmm. And if you, you trade a population for, for dirt people. A hundred years from now, we're just gonna see it as crazy.

They're gonna be like, why did anyone ever [00:38:00] do that? Why did they, yeah. No one cares. Worst trading human lives for soil, right? Like, as, as soon as you know that you're gonna be losing, you know, a thousand citizens a day or something like that you know, keep in mind these are, these are fathers of people's kids and stuff like that, right?

You get to a point where you've just gotta be like. I guess that now we just have to say, it sucks that this happening. You could be like, oh, you are, you are giving into a dictator. Right? And I always point out Russia is not in a position now to do another war. Everyone's like, oh, next civil attack.

You know. Northern Europe or something like that. I'm like the, they had this giant stockpile from the so cold war of old musicians and old planes and old trucks, munitions munitions. Yeah.

Simone Collins: You said musicians and it was just musician, this stockpile of old musicians,

Malcolm Collins: but they shot at the Ukrainian.

Yeah. So, the they of, of mimes as well. [00:39:00] Mimes so they, they, they sent their mimes and musicians to the Ukraine. No, but they had this giant stockpile, and that is what allowed them to fight the beginning of this war. But they have burned through that stockpile at this point. No kidding. And second, they also lost a lot of their fighting population.

They just don't have like. No, normal country would've fought a a to a level of depletion of their troops as Russia has. The only reason they fought this far is because Ukraine's allies are basically keeping it from invading Russia. And the, the way we know that is when there was Ian's you know, turning against Putin and then Mark.

Marching on wa Moscow, right? There was no forces to stop him. He was basically just able to march straight to Moscow, it looks like, was very little pushback with only a fairly small contingent of troops which showed that Russia cannot defend itself right now if somebody went into Russian territory.

Simone Collins: Well, I mean though that didn't exactly. [00:40:00]

Malcolm Collins: Well, positive

Simone Collins: revolution. It didn't

Malcolm Collins: exactly go the way he wanted it to. But it was not because of Russia's ability to defend itself with its own troops. Right. It was due to sort of internal politics. Yeah. So that was, that was not, not great for Russia. But yeah, the point I'm making here is, and in addition to all of that, like not only did they not have the manpower or anything like that but.

This war, Putin went into it because all of his intelligence told him, this is gonna be really easy. You're gonna be able to run and take the capitol. Yeah. Everyone's gonna forget about it. We've paid off

Simone Collins: all the politicians. Don't worry about it.

Malcolm Collins: We've paid off all the politicians. This is what everything, even if.

All of Putin's intelligence services we're telling him, don't worry, you can just take Estonia. You can just take Finland. You don't need to worry about this at all. We've handled everything. Europe's not gonna react, which they're not telling him, I, I promise you, this is not what they're telling him because this isn't true.

But even if they did tell him that, do you think he's gonna believe it This. Do, do you think he's going to [00:41:00] risk a giant black eye like this again? No, he's not. Not for the rest of his life. Is he going to risk this again? This idea that he's just gonna be like, oh, I won that one. Yay. Look at these, you know, minor territorial gains I made.

What's gonna happen is he's gonna be like, well, I better make sure I don't do that again because I am out of weapons. And I am in a dangerous poli position geopolitically because of my incredibly low fertility rates, which are lower than most European countries. And, and keep in mind they also had giant brain drain as well because of the war which again puts them on the back foot economically when they switch out of a wartime economy.

So I just, I just don't see that. And then people are like, what about the w nukes? I, I point out to people. That Russia hasn't successfully tested one of its nukes since before I was born.

Simone Collins: Oh boy.

Malcolm Collins: Since, well, and if, you know,

Simone Collins: if, if their nukes are in any condition, like the rest of their military equipment were incredibly

Malcolm Collins: hard to keep up.

Yeah, yeah. Since, since 30, [00:42:00] 30 years ago or more since, since anyone has tested that these nukes work, i, I can guarantee you they are terrified to attempt to use one of these news and you can say, oh, well, you know, at least they try it. I was like, you know what? The fact that they haven't tested one recently to show the world that they still work to me indicates that they know they don't.

So I, I've just not worried at all there because if, if he wanted to do that, what he would do, like, this is me, okay. I'm in Putin's shoes, right? Okay. I want to be able to use nukes to scare people and other politicians in a war. What do I do? I go and I secretly test some to see if they work and then if they work, I announce that the test happened.

Obviously it comes up on like Seism, Mcgras and like public stuff and everybody else knows they work. But I do this in secret. And I would certainly try this. I'd wanna know if this stuff works. So my best guess is Putin actually has tested the nukes. Oh no. Not that they don't work. I don't see why he would leave this up to chance.

That just seems illogical. So my best guess is Putin has tested his nukes and he [00:43:00] knows they don't work. Now people would say, you shouldn't roll the dice on something like that, but I'm like, but there's not a lot of reason for Putin to escalate in that way because that would cause other people to, to escalate with potentially attacking the homeland even if they don't go in with nukes.

And that's very bad for him. Like you can say like, well, what if one in five of them works or something like that? Still very dangerous for him to engage in that sort of, you know, doing a what's the word I'm looking for here? Coordinated like nu nuke strike.

Simone Collins: Oh. Mm.

Malcolm Collins: And keep in mind, every part of the nuke has to work.

The giant missile has to work. The, the warhead has to work. True. It's so many things when you, when you look at the fact that the jets had, had been like internally stripped and all their parts had been sold so

Simone Collins: bad,

Malcolm Collins: I'm not so worried about the nukes. But anyway the, the point here being is I actually think that from a morality perspective.

I know it sucks, but in terms of what you can realistically accomplish, because why would Putin give up his territorial games? Like, like just think about it like a, [00:44:00] a businessman doing a deal. Why is Putin going to give those up? You could say because his people are dying. Not exactly, he's in kind of a different position than the Ukraine in terms of people dying.

So, Putin. Puts into his troops people who are in prison systems people who are of ethnic minorities, he doesn't really put lots of productive ethnic Russians in his troops. When I say ethnic Russians, I mean like of, of his sort of Slavic of ethnic background. He is essentially trying to create.

A eugenic genetic pressure through the, the, the war while also shoring up his ethnic group, which is uniquely low fertility by exterminating other ethnic groups. For him, it's kind of okay if the war keeps going on. In the Ukraine, that's not the case. In the Ukraine, it's like patriotic Ukrainian like programmers who are in the war.

So it's a very different scenario in terms of how each side values the lives that are dying. And [00:45:00] Simone recently asked me, well, how can, how can Zel, why isn't Zelensky taking the deal if it just ends the death? And I'm like two things. He genuinely does believe Russia will attack again. Which I think, you know, they did attack GE Georgia again after the peace deals, so I understand that.

And the US did have a PAX saying that they would protect U Ukraine when Ukraine gave up its nukes. So I can see why he doesn't believe us when we say otherwise now. But, I what was I gonna say here? I, I just think he's wrong in this assertion. If he can get EU membership. I do not think that if he can get EU membership, people will see this the same or Putin would see attacking it the same.

I mean, it would be a huge win economically for the existing people who do survive within the Ukraine. The, the second reason I think he's doing it is because he is really scared, legacy wise about all of the people who sacrificed themselves sort of having their lives not matter in his eyes, but they saved all of Ukraine.

You could, you. Putin wanted Kiev. Putin wanted the whole [00:46:00] thing. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that's where we are was at. And I appreciate what Trump is doing with this, by the way wars ended in the first administration. Did you get any here

Simone Collins: highlighted is Israel and the UAE, the Abraham Accords. That was the big one.

August, 2020.

Malcolm Collins: Big one. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Then there was also Serbia and Kosovo Trump administration facilitated economic normalization agreements in September, 2020. I don't remember, but I mean, it was 2020. Who knows what was going on there. Right? Yeah. Then also in February of 2020, so before the pandemic really hit, there was a Taliban peace deal in Afghanistan where the Trump administration signed a conditional peace agreement within the Taliban setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US troops in Afghanistan.

I mean, that didn't exactly

Malcolm Collins: play out. Yeah. End

Simone Collins: well, but they tried, so I mean, you know, well, it

Malcolm Collins: ended well as long as Trump was in office.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. They were on their way. There was, there was theoretically a path and then Biden was like, yo, [00:47:00] just

Malcolm Collins: have a spectacular day. Simone. Does this change your view of Trump?

Totally.

Simone Collins: No. This, this explains it. It, it really, it humanizes him more. It gives him, it makes him seem more moral and less. Like selfish and delusional. It's very interesting. So thank you for Yeah. Digging deeper here. 'cause who knew, right? I just thought the punchline was, you know, that great exchange with Trump being asked what his favorite Bible passages were and him just being like, I, that's highly personal.

I don't talk about it.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. I don't wanna talk. The one that says, you're the best. If you believe you're the best.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that one. Love

Malcolm Collins: you. Love you too.

All.

Simone Collins: How about [00:48:00] now?

Malcolm Collins: All right. How am I coming through?

Simone Collins: Yes, I can hear you now. Good.

Malcolm Collins: That is absolutely wonderful.

Simone Collins: Sorry for being late again to start this. I'm like, okay, everything's set. I'm all good to go's. Just gonna quickly change Indy's diaper before her nap. But of course it's diarrhea and of course it's blowout. And of course, the moment that I open up her diaper, she shoves her shirt down into it, and then she takes her other hand and she grabs down into it.

And I, I don't like, do I need to hog tie her just to change her diaper now? Like, what? What am I supposed? She hates

Malcolm Collins: you. That's why the cleanup, the. She just loves tormenting you.

Simone Collins: All of her children do. My gosh, last night does it. Oh my God. Does it float after

Malcolm Collins: night? I love that you heard that and you knew there was a major issue going on.

I

Simone Collins: spent the night telling Titan and Torsten, it's not okay to play with water on unless these's very specific [00:49:00] contexts are in place. Like it's okay to use the toilet and wash your hands and brush your teeth and play with water toys at water time, but we don't play with water in the house. What's the first thing they do when they go to bed?

Malcolm Collins: Go to the sink. Fill up a bucket, bring it over to bed. Oh my God, I love that you could hear them through the floor. Just a little

Simone Collins: sink. Thank goodness our house is so old. You can just hear

Malcolm Collins: everything everywhere. So comments today.

Simone Collins: You

Malcolm Collins: said some were good. I, I guess,

Simone Collins: yeah. No, it's, it's so funny how like videos that perf like the YouTube algorithm loves or hates.

It doesn't predict whether people will love it or hate it on X or on substack or elsewhere. I really don't know what to expect anymore. But yeah, I think a lot of people pointed out that. Also like economic growth in prospects [00:50:00] was a major factor in whether a country had a baby boom. Like it wasn't just looking forward to a bright future because you could argue that in Soviet countries there was at least a lot of optimistic propaganda.

So also. Apparently Austria wasn't communist, so maybe No, it was split. The AI was wrong. I, I, I will dig into this more, but hopefully I get sweet, sweet vindication. So we'll see. As for ai, there's this really big bifurcation between people who like. I just don't get it yet. Or because they personally don't see it, they just re, regardless of us saying it's probably an issue of you're just not personally seeing it.

Like they still refuse to believe that it's going to be, be disruptive. And then that those who get it. Plenty of people say, well, yeah, but I still think that many large AI [00:51:00] companies are in a bubble. And I don't doubt that at all, and I don't think you doubt that either. Yeah, I didn't. They're massively overvalued, especially because you believe, and I think that you have very good reason to believe this, that they're likely to become commoditized and undifferentiated in the end.

Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. There's an AI company bubble, but that doesn't mean AI is overhyped and people just trying to like, I. Lull themselves into this false sense of security that AI is not gonna change everything very fundamentally. Is, is silly. There are also some people who are like, well, AI hasn't changed that much.

I've only done like this, that, and the other thing with it. And they like proceed to talk about how like, huge flows in their life have changed. But they're like, but I could, I could never use it to do this aspect of my work. And it's like, well. Yeah, but you just rattled off like five other things that you've completely outsourced to ai now, I dunno what to tell you, but like AI has probably changed your life.

I think they forget.

Malcolm Collins: It's like you, you normalize to a new luxury. They forget how [00:52:00] much they're using it.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. Someone's comment also is like I mean, consider how life hasn't really changed that much since the nineties. And I'm like,

Speaker 3: what you mean whatcha talking

Simone Collins: about? Yeah. I mean, I'm hoping that was a joke.

There was some SAR chasm between us.

Malcolm Collins: Some. I I hope that was SAR chasm.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I hope so too. But we'll

Malcolm Collins: see. The person who was like, AI is just a lossy algorithm, and you're like, okay, it's to lossy algorithm speaking for a lossy algorithm, you know? Yeah. You're doing great. Not that. Anyway, I'll, I'll get started on this one.

Awesome.

Speaker 6: Okay. What? So what happened, Torsten, can you explain? Well, I was blowing over into the mud bed. I just octavian, did you make a mud moat around our house? Yes, I did. And is that how we're gonna be protected? Yeah. And what happens when a bad guy gets in the mud vote? Um, he'll not wipe it. The mud and my niece distracted.

Speaker 7: He did the mud off and get us shoot [00:53:00] him like this. That makes a lot of sense. Professor, what about you? What are you gonna do when the bad guy gets in the mud? Mud

Speaker 6: something. What'd you find? What was my, this? Oh my God, it's a crystal. Yeah, sir. Dirty. She cleaned it off. Well, you can clean it off with water, by the way. Corten, I think that's quartz sir.

In this intense discussion, Simone and Malcolm delve into the phenomenon of trans mass shooters, analyzing statistics and counterarguments presented by progressive media. They highlight the difference in rates of mass shootings among trans individuals, cis males, and cis females. The conversation explores broader cultural issues, questioning whether mentally disturbed individuals are more prone to become trans and commit mass shootings. Additionally, the ethical implications of kink-related behaviors and self-control among trans individuals are examined. The video concludes with a critical analysis of notable trans mass shooters and the potential cultural culprits behind these violent impulses.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins (2): if a person comes up to you and that person says, I'm trans. Mm-hmm. Interpret that as

Speaker 7: Nice to meet you, . Listen, if you ever need anybody murdered. Please give me a call and you, you're giving him card. No.

Code of ethics. I will kill anyone anywhere. Children, animals, old people, doesn't matter. I just love killing

Speaker 6: you.

Malcolm Collins (2): Okay. Um.

Speaker 4: Oh God.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins (2): Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be talking about the phenomenon of trans mass shooters. And what I love is the way that Progressive media has covered this is they're like, well, the number one group that's still mass shooters, like this is all fake white males are still the most likely to be mass shooters.

Like Yeah. Because there's a lot in more white males than there are trans people. But if you normalize for the population, okay. Even if you take the lowest rates. So I'm not including any of the edge cases, whether or not this person is trans. Yeah. 'cause there were

Simone Collins: some non-binary shooters out there too.

Malcolm Collins (2): Some [00:01:00] non-binary. Yeah. Some were trans by one way of looking at it, not trans by another way, but take just a confirmed five tra trans mass shooters since 2017. Now I'd point out here there have been more trans transmat shooters since. 2017, then there have been cis female mass shooters since the eighties.

But if you just look at the rate of trans mass shooters you get , per million, 1.759 mass shooters, 1.79. If you look at cis women, it's 0.024. If you look at cis males, it's 0.27. So the rate that a trans person becomes a mass shooter is literally 700% the rate that a man becomes a mass shooter.

Stanley, well, do you want to tell your father about what happened at school today? I flunked my math quiz. No, the other thing. What other thing? Oh, the school shooting? Yes, the [00:02:00] school shooting! Oh yeah, some kids shot up the school. Was it you? No.

Did you get shot? No. Oh. Well, what's this about failing a math quiz?

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, I'll tell you what,

Simone Collins: you know, sometimes women struggle to break G glass ceilings, and this is one of those, you know, they just weren't. Yes. It's like they weren't making the quota. This was deeply uneven. Sometimes you just gotta send a man in to do, by the way, a man's job.

Malcolm Collins (2): If, if you include the disputed ones as well, it goes up to 3.57.

Dog. So, so we're talking, like, we're talking like, you know, what would that be, like 20 times higher or something? So is this just an

Simone Collins: issue of like, today , in our modern time post 2017, that deeply disturbed, like mentally disturbed people are way, way more likely to end up going trans because that's just kind of like this catchall solution we throw people into in their youth?

Or is this something else? What's going on? No, I think

Malcolm Collins (2): it's something else. I think it's something totally else. But what I'm gonna point out here is that if a person comes up to you and that person says, [00:03:00] I'm trans. Mm-hmm. You need to interpret that as

Speaker 7: nice to meet you, . Listen, if you ever need anybody murdered. Please give me a call and you, you're giving him card. No.

Code of ethics. I will kill anyone anywhere. Children, animals, old people, doesn't matter. I just love killing

Speaker 6: you.

Malcolm Collins (2): Okay. Um.

Speaker 4: Oh God.

Malcolm Collins (2): But I'll, I'll cut to the chase because in this episode we're going to go over a lot of cases of female mass shooters. Just to go over like how rare they are, how, how, how strange they're, we're gonna debunk A lot of the stuff that's out there right now people will say, well, this is really a white male problem because white males are overrepresented within mass shooters and trans people aren't really women.

And it's like, okay, except there's a few problems. There have been. If, if I look at like, let's say trans people are not actually the gender that they transition into. Right? Okay. Yeah. Why are there so many male or female to male trans mass shooters? Then why is it that there have been more female to male trans mass [00:04:00] shooters since 2017 than there have been female without any gender issues, trash mass shooters.

Why, why is that the case? Right? So clearly that's not what's going on here.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): Then we're gonna go into, okay. I think the answer is, and it, and it actually comes down to we had a call with you know, our, our, our user base, our, like paying user base, our

Simone Collins: VIP based campers, our base camp. What are they?

The counselors. It's a good question.

Malcolm Collins (2): Like why? If you believe, which by the way, I don't believe this. I do not believe that most trans people are auto gyno files. I think it's, it's closer to anorexia a culture bound disease that could easily be eradicated in Now. Hold on. There's

Simone Collins: a ton of autogynephilia in the trans space now.

Malcolm Collins (2): No, there is, but I think it's a smaller part of the community. I think it's like a, a third of the community these days.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think originally.

Malcolm Collins (2): I think originally it was the vast majority, but I think these days it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a smaller part of the community. Okay. Okay.

I actually think that the [00:05:00] people who transition due to a kink these days, the more common reason than autogynephilia is consent violation kinks, because I just see this practiced so much more wantonly by trans individuals than anything that looks like autogynephilia, IEG, forcing people who clearly don't see them a certain way to kowtow to them.

And, , name them a certain way. This is why within many leaders of the movement, you don't even see them attempting to pass. They just really like being able to hold power over other people and force them to boas, , view them in a sexualized way, basically walking around in their version of lingerie and then, , participate in this act through, , correctly gendering them.

If you want to see one documented case of this, you can watch our episode, the Life of Asite, about Anna Valens, the journalist who attacked Kirsha. , Valens repeatedly writes about , having a kink around violating other people's consent, and uses the trans identity as an outlet for doing that publicly.

Malcolm Collins (2): But he's like, but suppose, suppose it was the majority of the [00:06:00] community and we do know it's her readable.

So why not just let these individuals transition and then remove themselves from our gene pool? And I'm like, because Autogynephilia isn't even that like extreme a kink man. Like, do we need to eradicate them just because some group in society realize they can parasitize people by trying to normalize something.

Not only that, but the biggest problem with trans individuals is, well, one, that they keep trying to kill people. But two, that they involve other people in what is either a kink for them if they're an auto gyno file or in some form of like self validation display that did not consent to participate in it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Basically you're heuristic when it comes to like. To kinks that you're like, okay, fine. Indulge in it in private, do what you wanna do, find your group, find your tribe versus nah, man, don't do this is when exercising your kink involves revoking consent from other people. Yeah. Imposing your will upon others without them being okay with it or having given [00:07:00] consent.

That, that makes sense. Also, just based on my understanding of autogynephilia, like in a post AI world, especially with like virtual environments, wouldn't it be way more effective to like, just have AI create a gendered version of you that you can then bang in like an AI environment? Isn't that Yeah.

People

Malcolm Collins (2): are gonna do that. Like in, in, in AI environments, gender's gonna be a lot less important as, as, as opposed to like an existential trait of an individual. Mm-hmm. But the larger point here being is that, people just need to learn self-control. There's all sorts of things that like, turn me on. I'll, I'll use me as an example.

Here. I wanna do it. I might wanna I might get turned on by like a friend's wife, right? That doesn't mean I, I have a, I I now have to sleep with him to live a happy life. You know, you might get no, this, this is the thing you might get turned on. Like, I so many cakes, so many people have. What's, isn't that

Simone Collins: one of the, the kind of classic bible things of, hey, if you're into your neighbor's wife.

Maybe control [00:08:00] yourself.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Like maybe exercise. But, but, but if you look at our book on the prag dis sexuality, we go into it kinks are really, really common. Yeah. In, in fact, you are a very unusual, I think it's like only like 20% of the population has like no kink. You know, if you have no kinks, right?

And some kinks you can engage in without violating other people's consent or putting other people at risk and other kinks, you can't. And those kinks should just be put in the category of, I guess I'm just not gonna indulge in this, but within the urban monoculture, they can't deal with that. You can't be like, Hey, an auto guy, affiliates just.

I guess I'm gonna have to do other things to turn myself on, right. You know, instead of like, dedicate my life to this. But if you don't do that, and if you go into the trans community, and this is what I think is causing this and you just do whatever is pulling you in the moment, like whatever would give you validation regardless of whether it violates other people's consent, regardless of if, you know, if, if a woman in lingerie said she [00:09:00] wanted to do book readings for children, everyone would be like, what the f are you doing?

This is clearly sexual. Like, you can, you can do this on your own. I'm, I've got nothing against lingerie, but like, don't do lingerie book readings. Right? But when you look at the way, at the trans story hours, the trans individuals dress, it is clearly sexual, right? It is the trans version of lingerie, right.

You don't need to go out and do that, right? Like, but they're like, well, I want maximum validation. Regardless of how many people's violation, it can, , it violates regardless of how many kids are there, regardless of, you know, I'm just gonna go out and do this. Right.

Speaker: When asked about parents rights, OJ says

Speaker 6: Well, actually, in Canada, parents rights are limited, so the child has the right to be protected from the parents when the parents behave badly.

Speaker: Like village resident Dave Davido Carlo support Soji and limiting parental rights.

Speaker 7: The change that we have to see is sometimes the [00:10:00] parents.

it's genuinely really good grooming advice. On April 4th, 2023, Postcard reveals he's in contact with four minors. Age 9 to 13. I've so far sent it to four minors between the ages of 9 and 13. I hope it encourages them to transition. When the Anka Zone animation became a meme, they got excited over its virality among kids. Mana Drain and Orion also fantasized about getting kids on hormones orion was the manager , coercing him every step of the way. This is apparent by how he talked about him to others. Has he started hormones yet? Yes, but not effectively. I guess that's what you'd expect just telling a r to buy hormones. They bought estrogen, but no anti androgen. It would have been more fun if he started hormone blockers at like 12.

Haha, isn't that true for everyone? Don't worry, I'll make him into a good girl Don't blow up our spot, bro. All t slurs are like that. You can trust me around your kid. It'd be transphobic not to. Me with daycare tots.

Malcolm Collins (2): When you live in a culture that normalizes anything you, you can do to satisfy self validation.

And then not just self validation, but personal [00:11:00] hedonistic pleasure, like whether these are arousal pathways or any other form of pleasure because you know, these are the same communities where it's like, don't body shame. Eat whatever you want. Don't shame a person for that. Just do whatever you want whenever you want.

Right? Like you're, you're, you're, and worse than that, I've always found this to be a really interesting thing. It wasn't really pointed out for me until one video I saw where he's like, it's really weird that the urban monoculture has normalized this, which is like, as a teen, you're supposed to go out there and like, explore and learn all of the potential arousal and pleasure pathways that might exist so that you, you know, you're like full palette so that you make sure that you are like indulging in the full palette.

And it's like, there's a lot of stuff that, you just, like, if it turned you on, you wouldn't want to know that it turned you on. You just don't want to engage. Right? Like, there's a lot of stuff on that palette where it's like, okay, that's not something I ever example I'm, I'm not into this, but like [00:12:00] if I, it turned out that like poo and like feces with something that turned me on, right?

Mm-hmm. Before I learned that I would be like, this is like one of the things that I am never going to think about or engage with because there are so many negative externalities. Or having, you know, hamsters in my butt or something like that. Like I don't, I don't need to try that to know that. Like, even if that gave me like ungodly pleasure, I would not want to engage with that.

Even just for the safety reasons. You either need to declaw them, I've heard which is horrifying. 'Cause you're basically cutting off their, their fingers. Yeah. Or they can cause like life-threatening damage. You know, so like. Don't,

Speaker 10: a great adventure is waiting for you ahead. Hurry on winks or you'll soon be dead. The journey before you may belong and filled with woe, but you must escape the gay mans your tail can be told. Le Winks, Le [00:13:00] Wings, Le Winks

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Some things

Simone Collins: are not worth it.

Just not worth it. Yeah. Some things are

Malcolm Collins (2): not worth it. But anyway, so they engage in this and they, and they basically lose the muscle in their brain. And we, we actually know about this muscle really well studied in psychology, and it's called your inhibitory pathways and it's in your prefrontal cortex.

And if you do not use them they begin to degrade. And there's, there's great studies. Well, there's a number of great studies that show this, but one of my favorites is if you don't use them around emotional control, like one of the biggest lies around emotional control is that like, if you are feeling angry or sad, you should go out and vent it, right?

Like,

Simone Collins: oh yeah. Like a punch. Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): Or, or just let yourself cry, right? Yeah. Actually, if you do this, then, then crying becomes much more likely in the future. Mm-hmm. And losing emotional control and punching a wall involuntarily becomes much more likely. Mm-hmm. Never give in to emotion. This is some weird inside out stuff that somebody thought was like actual human psychology.

So, you, [00:14:00] you, you, you, you lose this inhibitory pathway because you're in a culture that's just like validate, validate, validate, anything that can give you validation. Anything that can give you positive emotions, anything that can sort of twist the world to see you in the way you want it to see you.

Right? And then like Carman in that Sells Park episode where he pretends to have Tourettes you begin to not be able to control this thing that originally you were just doing for pleasure at

Simone Collins: first. Oh, I see. Where you're going here. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: Our son is a good kid. He just didn't understand Tourette's was a real disease.

Speaker 5: I couldn't quite make that out. Kyle, I'm sorry. No, don't worry about it, Kyle. Now I understand. I've learned to deal with intolerance, dumb douche bag.

And it means a lot that you're standing here apologizing with your dad and lovely mother fed you, Jew, . Oh, thank you, Eric. Thank you. Big nose .

Speaker: My cousin. One time my cousin and I touched wieners. I didn't say that. Yes, I did. But [00:15:00] what? Stop it. I just need to, my cousin and I touched each other's. Ah, I just, I just want to thank everyone for coming. Uh, I need to be going now.

I went my bed. I touch my cousin Wi. This year has been fun. Goodbye.

Now, I'll note here if you're like, this isn't an issue of impulse control because a lot of these attacks are premeditated. You have to think about the way the trans community relates to impulse control. , If you look at the trans phenomenon more broadly, basically they get a thought into their head like I would.

Prefer to be the other gender. , And then they begin to ruminate on this thought and it becomes louder and louder and spirals for them till they get to the point where like, there's not even a point in being alive anymore unless they stay as the gender that they prefer to be. , Whereas in a mentally healthy society or culture, a person would get that thought in their head and they'd be like, yes.

But I mean, of course the externalities. Associated with pursuing this goal are so high that I should never [00:16:00] engage in ruminating on it because I just wasn't born that gender. So I am just gonna give up on this in the same way that like, , doing a mass shooting or something like that can enter somebody's head.

So losing self-control and losing a cultural framework and self-control. Can even have an effect on premeditated events. , They begin to, like a normal person might get in their heads like, oh God, I just hate the world. I wish everyone was dead. And then. They're like, but that's a crazy thing. These people have families, you know, this is a terrible thing to do.

I need to just take responsibility for the world as it is and try to make it a better place. Whereas if somebody who got it in their head that, oh, I can just transition, change my gender of this crazy idea, like I was born in the wrong way. Oh, I just hate the world. I want to kill a bunch of people. Okay, let's do it.

. And you can see this even in the unli note by this latest shooter where they're like, yeah, I'm really sorry for, you know, what I'm gonna do. And the consequences of this to my family members. Like they were aware of all the externalities, the family [00:17:00] members of the people I'm going to unlive, they were aware of all of this.

, They just were incapable of genuinely taking into account the externalities of a, of an obsessive spiral like this, which is part of the culture of the trans community.

Think of intrusive thoughts as not just something that like barges through the door, but as like a plant that you need to water and grow over time and within every other community. It is well understood. Do not water thoughts like this. Thoughts with huge negative externalities, but the trans phenomenon doesn't work at all.

If you do not normalize watering. Negative thoughts with tons of externalities because what is the idea of changing your gender through massive surgery, which is gonna put you in a lifetime of debt, where you're gonna, lose your ability to reproduce, you're going to potentially lose your ability to orgasm.

You're going to all these negative things. , You don't, transness would immediately shut down if it was like, oh, this thought has a bunch of negative externalities. Don't engage with it, but. [00:18:00] They need to normalize and not shutting down those types of thoughts, which leads to them watering these ideas like mass shootings as well.

And one final note, which I think is a real mental block for a lot of people on this stuff, is they can hear everything I've just said and been like, yeah, that makes perfect sense. We shouldn't normalize this sort of thought or pattern of thought. But then it's like, but I also have trans friends, right?

Like I also know trans individuals as human beings, and I like them and they're pleasant and they're nice to me, and therefore I am deeply uncomfortable with saying. Hey, this isn't something we should engage with. And I think that this is a real challenge for a lot of people that you can know, an individual and still know that something that that individual is associated with is deeply, deeply harmful and deeply, deeply damaging to society. We as humans have, have trouble with this. It's just like a psychological problem that humans have [00:19:00] where we can realize that something is bad.

But because we know somebody who engages with it, we don't want to think of them as bad. And so , we, think, okay, well the thing that they're engaged with must not be bad. Hitler, for example, to a lot of people, was a totally pleasant person. You know, he was an animal lover.

He had friends. He, it was really nice to kids. You know, you can be around this and be like, okay, therefore no ideology he's involved in is evil. , But that, that, that's not necessarily true. And so I think that we need to be able to disassociate, , the people we know in our lives who have become victim to this particular mimetic virus or cultural set and the cultural set itself.

And this can be true with like Islamists, right? There can be, and I've, I've even, , talked to perfectly nice, extremist Muslims, but who also thought that one day everybody needed to be Muslim or exterminated. , And that doesn't mean that their ideology isn't problematic and [00:20:00] doesn't need to be addressed just because they're nice.

Simone Collins: And sometimes when you get real mad, you're like, man, I just, I'm gonna kill you.

And Yeah. Well, that's normally where it stops.

Malcolm Collins (2): This is the thing that we don't talk about in our society, Uhhuh. And I think that we do need to admit this in our society. Mm-hmm. Is that males. And maybe white males disproportionately because let's talk about the white male thing here, because this is a big misconception.

Everyone's like, it's a white male problem. It's not another ethnicities problem. And it's like, well, actually the only reason it appears to be a white male problem, or the primary reason is, is because they remove crime related and gang related mass shootings and killings from mass killer indexes.

Simone Collins: They do not. They do

Malcolm Collins (2): what? As soon as you add them back in white males only do it at like 5% more of the race.

Simone Collins: That is what, you know, that you, you don't get to do that. You're not what? That seems also what, like really racist. I know, but like, oh [00:21:00] no, they can't, they can't help it. So we don't count that.

Well, I mean, and, and even with the

Malcolm Collins (2): trans stuff it's their culture. So if you look at the trans listing, whether you're at my five list of trans mass murderers or, or the tin list of trans mass murderers, that doesn't include the, the Vivians the Zans, sorry, the Zans. The Zans, which was a, a cult almost exclusively of trans individuals

Is the holy guide to living pure, this will help explain. First, Laughter. Oh. You're not

An oppressed minority. you're a cult!

Malcolm Collins (2): that spun out of the EA community and became a mass killing organization.

I, I will go into them later in this, but so far they've killed eight individuals, which puts them one above the Manson cult. So the,

Simone Collins: an EA cult again. Wow. I'm never

Malcolm Collins (2): really out murdered, but they don't count as a mass killing because they did it individually. Even though I would [00:22:00] think of them as like, that's a very obvious, right.

I felt

Simone Collins: like we don't consider so many American men to be polygamous because they're having serial monogamous marriages and kids with multiple women. Yeah. But functionally they have kids simultaneously with multiple women that they're raising.

Malcolm Collins (2): But the Ians are mass killers, right? Yeah. You know, we gotta, okay, so, the point I was making here is yes. It's just, it's just a data. So, but it is a male thing. Almost all musculars are, are either were born males and then transition to females. We're born males or we're women who transition to males, right. With male hormones. So something about the male brain or the hormones that, that instigate this brain instigates this and, and something we don't talk about in our society is the male kill instinct.

And, and there might be people in the show and they're men and they're like, I never get an instinct to kill people. And I'm like, fine. Maybe you don't get an instinct to kill people, but I can [00:23:00] just look at top video games. Like, what do men do recreationally? And they sit in front of a screen and they shoot people, or they fight them like Mortal Kombat and they, they rip them apart

Speaker 13: Subzero Wind .

Malcolm Collins (2): or they you know, you see this, it's just across, it's ubiquitous, across video games.

I mean, it's ubiquitous. Men love murder. Okay? And I'll even say like, I have, I, I don't know if I have this instinct louder than other people. But I can, I can like I am aware of it was in myself, right? Like it is, it is something I feel. And I then when it, when it comes up, I'm like, no, but you live in a society

And I'd also note here, we'll get into later in this, in trans communities where a lot of people are in response to this recent mass shooting saying, Hey, this is really cool. [00:24:00] We should do more of this. Killing kids is really cool. , But you see actually just broadly in these communities, a normalization of violent impulses to the point where you can really see how it would require so little to just push someone over the edge.

it clearly worked, given he publicly fantasized about assaulting women in bathrooms. Me when transphobic little girls ask me what I'm doing in the women's restroom when I'm obviously a woman. the two fantasized about assaulting J. K. Rowling's grandchildren. Not letting teaslers get with your kids is transphobic. Someone should Harry Potter woman's grandkids. Orion then goes on to call them turf meats.

Malcolm Collins (2): and we don't just do whatever instinct tells us to do within any particular moment.

And so I don't do it. Right. You know, I, I understand the difference between a video game in real life. Actually for example, speaking of trans I don't think I'm trans at all, but I generally prefer to play female avatars in video games. And for me, the, the reason is, is why, because I don't wanna stand looking at another [00:25:00] guy for like 18 hours.

Right. I've, I've, I've mentioned this before, but I get like, really. Turned off by like men. I don't like the, the idea of are you

Simone Collins: super straight?

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah, super straight. Like I don't, not like men in porn. I consume, you don't wanna look at 'em, you don't wanna video games. I do not like, well, and it would make sense that I, some males would have an evolved reaction like this.

The worst thing that could happen to you with a man is you trust another man to like be around you all the time and they end up impregnating your wife or your partner and then you answer. Oh, oh, fair

Simone Collins: point. Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): So, but I understand that that in a video game is not that in real life, right? Yeah.

Whereas a lot of these people, they don't understand this. They are like, if I have an impulse, I don't just need to engage in it in fictional environments, I need to engage in it in real world environments as well.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): And they still understand at first when they start the trans journey, like when the zzi [00:26:00] start the trans journey.

They don't realize that when you stop any form of self-control, you know, it's like one pillar after another pillar after another pillar. Eventually you lose the ability to exercise self-control at all, and the beast or the instinct eventually takes over.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): Now I wanna go over a few things that I think are really interesting.

One of the ones that you brought up for me was that the individual who did this most recent trans mass shooting that this individual regretted their transition. They were sort of put on the path to transition at 16. So very young.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): Clearly not at the right mind to be making this.

They fully transitioned at 17. And I'll go through some quotes from them later on because I think it shows, you know, when people are like, people are not being forced to transition they are not being brainwashed. There's a huge community out there that's just like, that's not true. That's, that's.

Not true. Like we know that people are being given regularly. [00:27:00] And, and, and, and normally like this is a normal procedure now approved for transition at their first visit to a, to a psychologist. This idea of like the, oh, you have to wait X long or y long, that's not a, that's not a thing anymore except in like some rare countries and states and stuff like that.

Like, but to continue here, he says, I am tired of being trans. I wish I had never brainwashed myself. And I do like that at least he takes personal responsibility and, and note here, I'm using he pronouns here because I guess he didn't like seeing himself as a girl. In the end,

Simone Collins: well, also the general consensus I think is once someone breaks the law, you don't have to respect their preferred pronouns.

So it kind of doesn't matter.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. He says well, I guess I'll say, she says correctly pronoun. I regret being trans. I wish I was a girl. I just know I cannot achieve that body with the technology we have today. I also can't afford that. So I'll also note here, and this is something I've noted about [00:28:00] transness more generally, is a lot of people when they begin the road to transition, they.

Q to trans online influencers who are using filters and angles. Yeah, yeah. Who do not pass in real life. Like Dylan Mulvaney, for example, doesn't come close to passing in real life

Speaker 4: really.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. But he's, he, she's always using like really heavy angles and filters. And so, they normalize to that, and this is why, you know, so many trans individuals use you know, and they can't afford all of that, just like anime girls and stuff like this.

And so they also,

Simone Collins: I like anecdotally, I'm not gonna name who this was, but I at one point was inviting a very prominent trans influencer to a private invite only event that would cost money to attend. And they're like, listen, like the plastic surgery I need to have done is really, really expensive. I basically can't do anything.

So even the most. Perceived as successful trans influencers out there. Mm-hmm. Like cannot afford their lifestyle. It is. Yeah. [00:29:00] And this is so downplayed. No one is like, yeah, by the way, no one can actually afford this. So you're, you're not gonna pass, you're gonna feel terrible about yourself and you're still gonna spend more money than you can I to get somewhere words?

No,

Malcolm Collins (2): because we keep seeing this was in the trans community. You will never be an anime girl. Okay.

Simone Collins: I know I'll never be. I mean like this is something that most women have to do. No, no, no, no, no. But I

Malcolm Collins (2): actually think this is important 'cause this is what is sold. I think to, and people can be like, this isn't what is.

And people have been around this these days, early days, they're like, no. Really? In early stage like egg trans culture, the sale is, you're gonna be an anime girl.

Simone Collins: Well, to be fair, men who start out and then transition to women are more likely and get boob jobs are more likely to look like anime girls.

'cause they're not gonna have those thick thighs.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Precent.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like I am, I am jealous of the legs of trans women. So they got that, that gap. Just, just, just saying, I'm just trying to be fair. But yeah, they're never gonna look, they're not gonna pull it off unless [00:30:00] they're Asian,

Malcolm Collins (2): I think. Unless they're Asian.

But that's a whole different thing. Then, then there are no

Simone Collins: Asian shooters, not shooters who are trans that we know of. So it's fine if you're Asian, it's fine. Go ahead. Yeah, it is. It's just you shouldn't

Malcolm Collins (2): transition if you're white. Yeah. Or black. Those are the two groups that seem to go shooty when they transition.

White people and black people. So stay away. Males especially females. Well, you don't wanna be a meher, but anyway, so to continue here he goes, I don't want to dress girly all the time, but I guess sometimes I really like it. I know I'm not a woman, but I definitely don't feel like a man. And this is a thing that obviously led her to transition.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): And the question here can be. What, like the, when you are going through puberty, confusion about gender identity is very, very normal when you are 16 or something like that. I won't say it happens to everyone. Like it wasn't something that I went through in a big way ever. I do remember thinking [00:31:00] before I went through puberty or like very early, early stage of the puberty, I was like, I really hope I turn out bi or at least gay because it's gonna be so much easier to date if I can emulate what the people I'm dating or thinking, which I won't be able to do if I'm straight, because I'll never be able to emulate a girl well in what feels good to a girl.

Well. Mm-hmm. And obviously I didn't turn out that way, unfortunately. A lot of people were like, oh, he's definitely secretly gay. And it's like, no, I'm definitely, I'm definitely not. But I have a lot of gay mannerisms because in high school, and this is what. Accuse people off on this and they get to dude and

Simone Collins: college.

Malcolm Collins (2): And college. Yeah. You had no escape. My group was gay. And like my roommate was gay in high school, in college. My academic dad was gay, you know, all throughout high school my roommate was gay. Right. So it's like three years. So really, and people can be like, oh my God, like that's so terrible to be around.

And it's like, actually if you are a straight guy, having gay male best friends when you are young, if you are a [00:32:00] slutty guy, like I was, is really good because women will hit on them and then they're like, because a lot of women hit on gay guys 'cause they think it's like safe or whatever. They're like, oh, trying to turn them or whatever.

But they're like, oh, I know this girl is like horny and, and down for it and she's hot and I'll just recommend her to my friend. Right? Like, be like, Hey, he's really cool. You should really,

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins (2): got so many dates that way. So gay

Simone Collins: dude to the best wing men for straight dudes.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah, yeah. No, it, it was, you go to a bar, right?

Suppose I go to a bar with like a group of five guys, right? You know, three of those guys are gay. That, that means a group of girls comes up to us. There are two options for them to date. There are two options for them to go home with. Although they perceived a large group of guys which is one of these things where it's like, you know, this is not so bad to, to hang out with gay guys.

I'll tell you that. If, if what you're looking for is sec. Now I, I wouldn't recommend that my kids do what I did, you know, sex vaccine in high school, which is what I. In college. That, which is what I was doing. [00:33:00] Times have changed. Times have changed. I think, you know what's funny? I was watching Bridget, the other YouTubers, who was like she was doing a takedown of like nineties movies and she was talking about how much they taught young girls to be slutty.

She was like, pretty woman. Like literally teaches you that. Like you go out there and like, just sleep around and be a prostitute and you will get a rich man to marry you. And she pointed out in this, have you seen Pretty Woman?

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): Have you? No, but I didn't know that the, the woman in it, she's not like an escort.

She is like a street walking prostitute. Yeah. And the guy like picks up in a car mm-hmm. And is like, Hey, will you go to this like, fancy event with me as my like plus one? Like what? Sorry? Just the insanity of this teaching young girls that like, no, you don't go like the escort path if you want to date like wealthy men in Manhattan, just to give a street walking prostitute in Manhattan.

Simone Collins: Well, you know, again, time and a place for everything. Also, time,

Malcolm Collins (2): time times have [00:34:00] changed in terms of what people are, people drink

Simone Collins: so much. Like in college and, and youth before now, like no one drinks anymore. So much has changed. So,

Malcolm Collins (2): yeah. But, sorry, the point I was at when I started all this is if when you're going through puberty, you question your gender.

That is not a sign that something is wrong. You are being bombarded with hormones, new systems are starting up, your brain is changing. Mm-hmm. That's normal.

Simone Collins: Well, and also your body's gross. It just gets gross. The, the smell, the hair, the mood swings. You're not gonna like it. Like, almost certainly you're not gonna like it,

Malcolm Collins (2): but stopping it makes it worse.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like you have to, you have to go through, hell, it's, it's the Winston Churchill quote, right. If you're going through, hell keep on going. You just, you have to like. Pass through. Well, you know, and that's why Disney

Malcolm Collins (2): transitioned actually the, the leader of the cult, why was that during puberty they felt like they were becoming a new person and they didn't want to lose who they were.

Yeah. They were like obsessed with holding [00:35:00] onto this identity that they had at the time. Mm-hmm. Which I think is, you know, one of the problems with these people who are like life extensionist and everything, they, they, they want to maintain like a really stagnant iteration of who they are. But anyway, to keep going here.

And I'll note here that like before all of this, like men cross-dressing was you know, in some contexts even normalized, you go back, oh, it was, it,

Simone Collins: it was an art. It was pulled off. People like fully acknowledged it. Yeah. And, and also depending on the culture, you didn't even need to cross dress. A lot of people right now are talking about Indian couture shows, for example.

And then Indian historical male fashion and how in many periods of Indian history, men had even more elaborate dress than women. A lot of women are even now trying to buy some Indian couture lines that were like from, from their men's wear lines. 'cause it's so good. So like, yeah, it's just, it's this, this concept of like, men not getting to dress up fun or [00:36:00] men never having dressed like women is completely ridiculous.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Next here on keeping long hair, I only keep the long hair because it is my last shred of being trans, but it is too inconvenient. I was gonna cut it today, but I thought it would be embarrassing defeat and also conceding change of character that could get me reported, which I find interesting here that, you know, he's actually afraid of the trans community backlash from, from people realizing that we've met

Simone Collins: people who have det transitioned and just received intense backlash and had to literally change their entire careers just because they got frozen out of the industries that they had worked in.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, this was an acting Yeah, yeah. It was

Simone Collins: in, yeah, like Broadway plays, et cetera.

Malcolm Collins (2): The, the urban monoculture is in incredibly intolerant. Like few people get discriminated more against than Detransition.

Simone Collins: Yeah, man, it's scary.

Malcolm Collins (2): Additional self-loathing tied to appearance. It's, it's the apostate thing.

Kill all apostates. That's way they I feel like feeling sexy and cute, but my face never [00:37:00] matches how I feel. I hate my face. Maybe that's why I like furry so much. You can give yourself a new body and face and it's like, well then you could have just done the furry thing and not the transition thing.

Yeah. Like this thing, like if one of our kids is like, I'm telling you like, somebody's like, oh, one of your kids comes to you and they're like, I think I'm a different gender. I'm like, well, why don't you, you know, have you tried being a furry as a furry? Right. Like, do that Right. Alright.

Simone Collins: Yeah. There we go.

Malcolm Collins (2): You don't need to transition to experience. Go into AI chat rooms is another gender. Use the voice changer. I don't effing care. Right. But you don't need to dedicate your entire life to validating this particular pathway of pleasure for you. Where comfort like, and I think people confuse, they're like, well, it's not pleasure.

It's like, I feel deeply uncomfortable. So what all of us do, things that make us feel uncomfortable. You go to work, you go to fricking high school all of that makes you feel uncomfortable. You do it 'cause you gotta and live life. Let's go over these individual trans shooters. 'cause I think a lot of them, you know, people will try to like pull the wool over your eyes about them.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): This one [00:38:00] here never gets reported in the trans shooters list and I don't know why. Okay. Very clearly trans. This is Randy Stair.

Simone Collins: You never heard of him?

Malcolm Collins (2): This is the Danny Phantom Killer. Mm-hmm. Well I'll read it and then explain.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): So, on June 8th, 2017 three killed, zero injured shooter died by suicide.

Randy Sta a 24-year-old employee at Wise Markets Supermarkets in Eaton Township, Pennsylvania. Arrived for his late shift, blocked stores entrance and exits to prevent escape. And then finally, shot three coworkers was two pistols before taking his own life. Ah, he was in writings left behind by Stare, outlined a detailed plan expressing deep ideation, fascination with Columbine, high school shooters, and inspired by anime's characters, Ember's, ghost Squad from Danny Phantoms.

Now if, if, if you look at this individual, they clearly had gender dysphoria. They regularly wrote about it before this happened. They wrote about wanting to be a woman, and actually the reason that they [00:39:00] did the shooting is they thought that after they, they did the shooting and committed.

Arriving that they would be reborn as a cartoon woman and a member of a all female cartoon ghost squad of singers. Oh,

Simone Collins: that's very specific.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yes. He, he was attempting to transition through mass shooting,

Simone Collins: shooting into a ghost squad. An anime girl. Yeah. Musical anime group. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): Najee Mosley, transgender woman confirmed in police and news based on self-identification as records. A 26-year-old temporary employee at a right aid distribution center in Aberdeen, Maryland, open fire with a handgun during her shift, killing three colleagues and wounding three others before [00:40:00] turning the gun on herself.

Speaker 4: Oh.

Malcolm Collins (2): Now I'll, I'll note here. And, and what you're going to see with a lot of these is, they are what was I gonna say? They're young, very young often. And like early mid twenties. And that's because they got Shanghai into this very young, and this is when they sort of realized it's not working often.

Which is what we've noticed was, was we've talked about with trans individuals. You get all this posting during the euphoria phase. Mm-hmm. And then you get the dysphoria phase, which happens with a lot of people where they realize this isn't working at all the lung bombing

Simone Collins: ends. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): And they stop posting.

So the public stop seeing it and doesn't normalize that what you have. 'cause you take these hormones and these hormones cause euphoria. We know this from like other studies, right? You're not having euphoria because you're, you're, you're trans, you're having euphoria because you're on happy drugs buddy.

And, and then you, you then it sort of normalize to the drugs. They stop working and you, you go, go kill a bunch of people. So Alec mc, Alec McKinney, a transgender man, [00:41:00] self-identified as transgender during the incident and in court, some claim trans due to so, May 7th, 2019, one killed, eight injured Alan McKinney, a 16-year-old student along with a compass.

Devon Erickson 18 carried out a shooting at STEM School Ranch in Colorado using handguns to target classmates in the classroom, resulting in the death of heroic student, Kendrick Castio, who charged the shooters and injured eight others and planned weeks in advance. And they did it for a desire for no notoriety.

And, and you'll note you see this regularly was the trans community here, but I've also seen it within the wider trans community is an obsession with mass shooters. And I'll note here, this is not rare, so, there's a great. Piece here, I'll put on screen here from Reddit, right? So what's happening in Reddit after this shooting, right?

I love, it's everyone on the right is like a really like freaked out face. And then they show what's happening with everyone on the left, right? And they're posting things like base take the [00:42:00] fight to their kids so they can feel what it's like to be attacked for your identity. Next one. Elect a fascist.

Your kids are legitimate targets. Republicans are enemies of humanity. And th out the herd is our duty. Next post, more dead Christians, LOL all caps.

Speaker 4: Next

Malcolm Collins (2): post to me, it seems like if you elect a really bad guy that's cruel and people weaponize, its cruelness and horrific behavior against you and your neighbors.

Some of those are horrible. Next post, maybe their Chris Joe fascist parents will think twice before supporting an admin that kills Palestinian children. Next post conservatives want to kill all trans and shouldn't be surprised when we fight back next post heroic. They want to kill our kids. We are going to fight back next post.

You know, actually you guys don't need to see all of this. You can like pause it and read it if you want. The point being is it is normal to laed violence of this variety within the trans and far left community. This individual and many of these other individuals expected to be seen as heroes [00:43:00] within their community and were seen as heroes within their community for killing.

Innocent individuals. I mean, these are kids in a lot of these instances. And I think that that's something that we need to remember as well is, is that these individuals are just pure hedonism, maxing in, in terms of what they're doing. And the people around them are through not even attempting to see what the other side is seeing.

Like if you look at our other videos on trans stuff, we point out that, and there's a great video we do where we go really deep in the detail on this. It is a complete lie in fabrication. That transition lowers the risk of unliving yourself. It does not. The, the UK basically banned it like last year.

And the rate of suicide among people was gender dysphoria did not go up statistically

Speaker 4: speaking. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): The, the, and there's been lots of studies on this. There was a study at the Travis, was it the not the Travis Travis, I think it was the Travis doc one, where it came out that they had covered up a study that showed that giving children puberty blockers was actually increasing the risk of self-harm and [00:44:00] unloving thoughts.

And in court, what we talked about in the other video the leading Protran lawyer had to admit that there was literally zero evidence of this. Mm-hmm.

If you want to source other than us for this, a great place that collates a lot of the evidence, but not as much of the evidence as video we did on this was the Atlantic Herb article, the liberal misinformation bubble about use gender medicine, , how the left ended up disbelieving the science. And so you can see even leftist sources are now admitting, , no, it, it doesn't, you, you are not helping a person by transitioning them, , at least in regards to probability of unli.

Malcolm Collins (2): It, there's a lot of studies that, that trans people would like bat around, but they actually don't show what the community pretends they're showing.

And I would suggest that you go look at that other video we did on this, where we go into a lot deeper this particular point because it, it is one of these like chilling things when you actually realize, oh, what. If anything, and we've also pointed this out, when you consider the fact that once you are in this community, you have a 50 to 40% chance of [00:45:00] attempting unli you're almost certainly by allowing this mimetic virus to continue to spread within communities, increasing the death risk of people who are susceptible to it.

Not almost certainly, you very obviously are, you can just do the math in your head. If people didn't know that obsessing over this was an option and they treated this just like any other kink or predilection they, they wouldn't get into these death loop obsession loops about this stuff. And then they wouldn't end up in these really horrible positions in life.

And I also noted to the other guy when he's like, why do, do you, you know, not want to just allow them to like remove themselves from the gene pool? And I was like, because like, just because somebody has like autogynephilia or you know, likes to cross dress doesn't mean I want to exterminate them, right?

Like I'm literally the exact opposite. I'm like, they should stay in the gene pool. They should stay a productive member of society and we can find ways to work around that that's not sterilizing a 16-year-old child, you know? But anyway. Any thoughts, Simone, before I go further? [00:46:00]

Simone Collins: Well, you're not sterile.

I mean, it doesn't matter what age someone is if you're making sure they don't reproduce it, it just someone who has certain tendencies. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm with you on that and I'm, I'm just, I think that your theory that what's going on is people are just killing their inhibitory control. And they're gonna have a lot more, although you would expect them to see, I think more obese trans people.

Malcolm Collins (2): You see a ton of obese trans people. You just don't see them on media. Oh,

Simone Collins: I'd say the

Malcolm Collins (2): average trans person I see. Because I lived in Silicon Valley, so I knew a lot of like the trans coders and stuff like this. Yeah. And there's way so many trans people, they work in ai, they work in coding great people.

Like if, if we could not have them exercise themselves from the human gene pool and just found a more productive way of dealing with these impulses, like, that'd be great. It's not like on average. I think that when people go into trans identities, they're evil. But in Silicon Valley and knew a bunch of trans coders, obesity was really common.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Actually, now that I'm thinking about the trans people that we've met in the wild, it is less common to see one that shows signs of immense [00:47:00] conscientiousness. Even like very basic things that women do, like fairly meticulously manage their hair and makeup and clothing. You actually do see this less commonly with trans women, arguably men at many events where there are lots of trans women are more meticulously upkept than the trans women.

I've seen with, of course exceptions. There are some people who pull it off really well but they don't seem to be the norm. So yeah, I guess it also sort of depends on the way that you approach trans. Like if someone had to be trans. It would be better if they're trans in the way where they're like really doing the work and like building inhibitory control and like doing really hard stuff to transition instead of what the norm of transitioning is, which is, all right, now we're just gonna do whatever makes us feel good in the moment.

Which is more what we saw with, oh, what's that [00:48:00] journalist giant Tess woman?

Malcolm Collins (2): I don't remember.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But,

Malcolm Collins (2): Oh, with Vivian? Vivian no, sorry. Anna Vallen. Anna Valence Anna, absolutely. I think Anna Vallen is

Simone Collins: more indicative of having fallen into the trans culture of do what makes you feel hed sonically best in the moment.

Whereas there are other notable less common trans women who are doing really hard, like have made their lives harder and are leaning in and working harder as women and, and post-transition. Well,

Malcolm Collins (2): they working hard towards their own self validation, which is just their own pleasure. Right? Like, yeah, I guess that's still dangerous, but I still think that

Simone Collins: they're building more inhibitory control which at least is going to make them less likely to become random master.

But,

Malcolm Collins (2): but your, your purpose in life is not pleasure, right? Like it is not self doubting. Yeah. Or, or,

Simone Collins: or yeah. Some kind of identity. But I think so many people are guilty of having a self identity. And I think there is, there's a difference between living your life dedicated to pursuit [00:49:00] of hedonism and self-identity, which can involve a lot of work.

A lot of work, and a lot of discipline. I mean, think about all the people who like starve themselves or go to the gym for like eight hours a day to look a certain way, right? Like they have very strong inhibitory control. So they're less likely to fall victim to the specific issue that you're pointing out here, which is inhibitory control issues.

So I would say that there are two moral failings that we're concerned about, but like the one that has to do the most with the school shooter program problem is more the, I'm just gonna indulge in every feeling and impulse that I have issue.

Malcolm Collins (2): Right. Well, and this is what, and I think that you, the Vivian's, you know, I'm gonna skip here.

I'm just gonna list the names of the trans mass shooters or the maybe trans mass shooters and go straight to the Vivians. 'cause I think they're more interesting, the Zzi, the Zions Zian. 'cause they claimed that everything they were doing was for the betterment of like, humanity. That they were like the only good people out there.

They had developed this system to be truly good and to dedicate yourself towards [00:50:00] protecting humanity. And yet every single one of their murders was the most petty and selfish and self-serving thing any human could ever do. I'm gonna

Simone Collins: run my landlord through his back. Like, that's not gonna make the world better to stab with their parents.

You

Malcolm Collins (2): don't have to get a job. You know, like Yeah. They were all the worst humans. And their actions show that that almost conceivably could exist. Yeah. Where if you look at us like another offshoot of the AI movement who's gone in another direction, as I said. Your goal in life isn't pleasure, it's not self validation.

It's not to create some image of yourself and force everyone to see you that way. It is to make the future of humanity better. Yeah. Okay. It is. To dedicate yourself to the future. And preferably, one of the best ways you can do that is through finding a partner and raising children. Right? And this is very difficult to do and it requires a lot of, well, raising

Simone Collins: children in a way that empowers them and makes them, so first of all,

Malcolm Collins (2): just read through the list.

We've got Anderson, Lee Aldrich [00:51:00] here. This was a non-binary person who shot up the gay club. We got Audrey e Hale here. This was a transgender man. We've got Kimberly Riker here. This, there was a transgender man. Yeah, there's a couple. This one, Kimberly Riker was a male who people are like, oh, they weren't trans, but there's clearly pictures of them on Facebook with.

Prosthetic breasts on and dress like a woman. And it's like, that's a little, even if they're not trans, there's clearly something going on there, right? Like they're not, you know,

Cis male here if they're showing that off on Facebook. Then we've got Dylan Butler here, gender fluid and non-binary.

He thi, thi this was wait, was this the, i'll just cut this out. I'm just checking which one that it was. We've then got Guinness, Ivan Moreno, AKA, Jeffrey, escalate gender fluid and transgender. We then got NA, Natalie Samantha Oppo. This one was the one that we covered in the other one. There have been some [00:52:00] rumors that this girl who did the school, my shooting was trans, but it hasn't really been confirmed.

I would say this is the least likely to be actual trans member on the list.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): We've then got Robin Westman, a transgender woman with gender certainty in manifesto. But I wanna, I wanna talk about the Vivians because I find this so interesting. Zzi, ZZI, Zian. Okay. The Border Patrol agent, right.

So Theresa Milo a trans individual who used, they then pronouns and Felix Ophelia, another transgender woman, allegedly ambushed and fatally shot a US border patrol agent David Myland. During a traffic stop near the Canadian border they had, like, in their cars, they were talking about this on another show, they had like filled the car not

Simone Collins: to record it.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): yeah. It was like assault, full tactical

Simone Collins: gear, like a, like, infrared site, something like that. And they're like, what,

Malcolm Collins (2): what sort of cis women drives around in a car like this with a cis female friend, right? Yeah. Like, these people are clearly not women, women as we think of women. This is something else here, right?

No. But anyway

Simone Collins: I mean, I might have survival gear in [00:53:00] my, in my car, but not kill gear.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. So they, they just killed someone because they stopped them at a traffic stop and they were afraid of having to deal with it. Like what? They basically went out wanting to kill someone for fun, is what we,

Simone Collins: yeah.

And I think the reason why the, the stuff in the car came up is that they did get convicted recently. And that the, the reason those things came up was that that was used as evidence that this was somewhat premeditated, maybe not, you know, against the, the specific person, but that they had planned to, to kill someone.

And it was very d everything did

Malcolm Collins (2): we have Alejo horde attack ZZI and members, including Emma Bani, transgender and Alexandra Le Layman, transgender Surya Dalio gender, not specified, but probably trans, non-binary. And so many legi gender, not specified, but probably trans or non-binary, allegedly attacked their landlord.

Curtis lined, stabbing him 50 times, gouging out an eye and impaling him, was a sword in a trailer park amid a rent dispute. Basically they had stopped paying, if I understand [00:54:00] their rent during COVID and a long

Speaker 4: time, a long time.

Malcolm Collins (2): You have to pay your rent. And they're like, no, because we're special people who get to do whatever makes us feel good in the moment.

Like this is a group that said that they were dedicated to trying to make the world better through like effective altruism and stuff like that. And literally didn't produce a single thing of value over the course of their entire existence. You look at like what we and the Hardy a community have produced or the prenatal community exists.

You've got PIA io, like an entire automated school system. You've got the whistling Do AI system an AI that you can enter, give to your kids, like instead of stuff to animals. It brings the conversation back to educational topics. Right now, I've been making a lot of progress on our fab.ai, which is gonna make it so much easier to do AI safety work.

We've got if, if you go back in time, five bestselling books, not a single book from these people, right? You, you've got daily podcast episodes. They have like occasional substack posts. It was the most that they could, they could muster literally nothing. What were they doing all day? It wasn't like one person, right?

Like what [00:55:00] the, were they doing all day?

Simone Collins: Right. Well, they were even trying to do what? Uni un hemispheric sleep or something. So like they, they weren't even sleeping, you know, they had more time than we did.

Malcolm Collins (2): They're literally just orgies all day. That's all I can imagine.

Simone Collins: I don't think they actually saw that much action.

I don't get that. I,

Malcolm Collins (2): I, no, I mean, it's a whole group of trans individuals, trans, I think they were, they

Simone Collins: were somewhat frozen out though by like, the rest, rest of the rationalist and IC communities. Yes, but they had

Malcolm Collins (2): each other's bodies, so. Oh, oh, you're not, you're not, don't do that to me. Don't do that to me.

Simone Collins: No. Mm, no. We're not going there. Let's move on.

Malcolm Collins (2): Just constant heating as a Maxine. So I, I think that you see this, if you look at sort of these two, you could call them like radical split offs from the, the EA community. Which one is actually getting stuff done? It's ours, right? Like we, I pointed out now are like six times bigger nativism versus like a rationalism or effective altruism or you know, AI safety, it's like six times bigger on Google.

Like we actually are doing [00:56:00] more than the entire old community is. These people somehow did even less than the old community did, and they were infected by the, the, the virus here, like this mimetic virus. The next one here Delaware County parental homicides, the death of Richard Ziko,

Parents of Zian member Michael Ziko, a transgender woman.

Were ruled homicides by gunshot wounds. They, they never got the g the girl I'll say. And notice either all different people. This is like a giant cult of transgender people. Right. Maya Sek suicide follower, Maya Sek trans unlive themselves after psychological manipulation by the trans individual zz.

Using techniques like ferric sleep, a form of sleep deprivation and mind control to zap emotions.

Simone Collins: Un hemispheric sleep. That's what they called it. Yeah. Classic cult tactics, sleep deprivation.

Malcolm Collins (2): Other ones that were Ted to the group. Let's see. There were I can't find any Anyway. Yeah, really scary nut jobs.

And [00:57:00] I think that. What you see here, and I, because I wanted to, the reason I wanna go into ZI sent this, this is what you see here, is it's not just a lack of emotional control, but an inability to produce. Hmm. If you wanna see another video where we talk about this in a lot of detail check out our video, the Wachowski Effect.

This is the term that I hope people pick up, where we talk about how people can be really good at something like the Wachowskis were good at movie making until they transitioned and then all of their movies were terrible. Or you could look at like the Dragon's age games. The team was largely the same from the early games to the later games.

But what changed that the team leans transitioned and were like, look, this person wrote amazing dialogue. Like they, some of the people who worked on veil Guard were like some of the key people in like, mass effect too, right? Like

Speaker 4: the problem

Malcolm Collins (2): wasn't the writer, it was the transition. And we have some hypotheses around that, but I'm gonna add a new hypothesis now.

Transitioning just makes it incredibly hard to do, like effective work after you transition because you become so you, you know, because you've already made [00:58:00] these massive sacrifices for validation and self-affirming. It's very hard. It self affirmation. Self affirmation that your purpose in life has nothing to do with those things.

And those things are just a sign of your sin. You know, and I, and I don't even mean sin in a Christian since here, is, is you have lived only for yourself. You have taken this beautiful gift of being a part of civilization and life and then spit it. It, because anything you do to just make yourself feel a certain way is just masturbation was extra steps.

You basically spent it masturbating in a corner while the rest of us were out there, you know, lifting giant rocks to build civilization.

Simone Collins: Not a good look,

Fun thing I learned from a fan, , that I had no idea. , Buck Angel, you know the famous trans man who is rip really hated by the trans community gets he against child transition and stuff like that. This seems like a standup guy. Anyway, uh, he, um, was [00:59:00] married to the woman. Who then ended up marrying one of the Wachowskis.

So she divorced Buck Angel, got one of the Wachowski brothers to divorce his wife. They got married and then he transitioned just like her previous partner had transitioned. And she was a professional dominatrix. , And this influenced a lot of the aesthetics of the movies. , And it seems like she may have had a fetish around getting her partners to transition given it happened multiple times.

Malcolm Collins (2): final thought, Sonam.

Simone Collins: I like your theory better than the more pervasive theory now, which is that these are just mentally disturbed people. And because the trans movement is a thing now, that's just where mentally disturbed people are going. Like asthma, Gold's general conclusion seems to be we just need to be setting people to asylums more just asylums, bring back asylums.

I will gladly pay my tax dollars for asylums. But I think this is, I like this more, and I like that really the, the key thing to fix is [01:00:00] the culture. You, you don't need to necessarily commit these people. These could have otherwise been productive people in society. The problem is that they were given justification to lean into their demons, and that's not good.

And you lean what happens into one

Malcolm Collins (2): demon and you lean into, and we can't even say it's a demon. Now I can say this about other kinks. I can be like, that's probably something you shouldn't engage with a ton, right? Like maybe. Lean back from that and don't make that take, take Anna Valence, right? You know, Anna Valence made if, if you look at a lot of her work like outside of the work that she does with Vice or whatever, right?

Mm-hmm. Core kink of hers was killing people. This is a trans person who did the kirsha stuff like attacked Cure, shot of the blue, the beautiful and saintly Fox girl from Boston. And she made up all these stories and, and used what was it, vice or something, to, to attempt to create this big spear campaign against Keisha.[01:01:00]

And it didn't work blow up in her face, but her key thing, like, she talks about it in the very first Vice article she did, that her personality, like her sexual personality is as a giant who like stomps on people. And that she regularly like as a big source of income for her. Or not a big source, but you know, it's, it's one of her, like, it appears that she spends at least 50% of her online social capital on this sort of a persona.

And it's like. I've got nothing against you if something like that turns you on. Right. But don't make it key to your public identity. Right? Like, you don't need to spend a ton of time on this. It's just all of us get a random roll of the dice of what turns us on, right? Yeah. And sometimes environmental stimuli may affect that fine, whatever, but largely speaking, it's not something we control, therefore, it's not something that is an important part of our identity.

Yeah. And if you make it an important part of your identity, then you end up validating every other random effing impulse you have. [01:02:00]

Simone Collins: Well, and I mean, one thing that you have highlighted from the very beginning of your thinking through the best ways to live in the Pragmatist Guide to Life, the identity that you encourage people to choose is kind of the last step.

It's, this is first thing you establish your objective function, that which you believe holds inherent value. Then you, you need to establish your what do you call it? Source of evidence. Sort of a how you determine what is and is not true. So then you can establish an ideology of how to best maximize your objective function.

And then only after you've decided what has inherent value and what you wanna maximize your life, and only after you've built a theory as to how to best maximize that thing, do you start thinking what iteration of my identity, based on what I've been dealt like genetically in terms of my life, et cetera, would be best to maximize my objective function.

And then you build an internal and external identity that. [01:03:00] Is in service of those values. And so, yeah, I mean, what, what people are doing instead is, okay, well what's my, like what's this random kink I have? What's this random proclivity I have? And no, your identity shouldn't be built on these random things you've been dealt.

It should be built on, built on, informed by absolutely the things you've been dealt, but you should be picking and choosing things to play up and play down that are in service of something bigger than you. Which honestly I think leads to much greater contentment and happiness. So yeah, I'm with you on that.

And I'd encourage people to read The Pragmatist Guide to Life 'cause I think it's pretty good on this stuff. If you're feeling lost, makes my life completely free of fomo. So that's nice.

Malcolm Collins: Have a good one. Talk to you in the next room.

Simone Collins: Love you. While you're getting set up, you need to choose a color and font for your live laugh, love [01:04:00] art commission.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Do Candyland. That works

Simone Collins: Candyland. Okay. There was this one legislator that he absolutely hated. And so when he wrote his veto for the legislator, he wrote it in a series of lines. But then if you read the first letter of all the lines, it read F-U-C-K-Y-O-U, and then the, the next day, like, you know, like a, what do they call 'em?

Acrostic poems. But the next day in a press conference, the, the press picked up on it right away they found it. And they were like, did you, did you know this? And he's just like. Oh well, no, I had no idea, but it was a blatant lie. 'Cause he did that 100% on purpose. 'cause he hated that legislator and that just makes him so lovable.

Absolutely lovable. Another thing that he, he did at one point, which I'm totally wanna steal, but if this were our kids' crime, we would be so lucky. One of his kids would not turn off lights when he left the room. And of course, Austrian Arnold [01:05:00] Schwarzenegger. I mean, Germans and Austrians are very disciplined about turning off lights.

You don't waste electricity in, in Europe. So he got really mad when his son would never turn off the lights. And he was about our, our kids' age, like five or six. And he, he was like, every time you don't turn off the light, I'm gonna take away a light bulb and. The kid was like, well, I'm not worried about dad.

'cause he had a chandelier in his room. But then every time Arnold would take away another, another light bulb until finally there were no light bulbs left in the chandelier. And the kid was really afraid of going to bed without any lights and Yeah. I mean, we already do. Yeah. We, we, we threaten to take away live lights with with bad behavior.

But yeah, it's so lucky that his kids' naughty behavior was not turning off lights in our kids'. Naughty behavior is filling buckets. Chicken feed buckets full of water and dumping them on the floor such that our kitchen ceiling literally, it's raining. [01:06:00]

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, it's more fun that way, right?

Simone Collins: Isn't it though? Or have we checked

Malcolm Collins (2): on Octavian today or

Simone Collins: multiple times?

Yeah. Yeah. It, it is not gonna be any big deal that he's here. I mean, yeah, I'm Why are you

Malcolm Collins (2): checking on him then?

Simone Collins: Because he's my darling Smidgen.

Malcolm Collins (2): You, you need to just learn to

Simone Collins: let him. He's a little, he's a little hapless sometimes. Like I came down just now and was like, Hey, how you doing buddy? And he was eating all the snacks that I left for him.

But he is like, well, I'm good. I'm really thirsty. And I'm like, did you, are you aware of the fact that there's a large glass of water right here? And he's like, oh, thanks. Are you just gonna die? Like, are you just gonna expire? And I like, don't like feed you from the water cup. Like, sometimes I wonder about these kids, man.

Like remember how like they couldn't figure out blankets for the longest time.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Sleep on the floor. [01:07:00] Alright, I will get started here. Okay.

Speaker 17: Okay. What are you two doing

on Dad? On Dad Torsten? Well, that is not safe, Titan.

Speaker 19: It doesn't hurt at all. What are you little b******s doing? Stop it. It stuff not hurting. Why that isn't safe? That's just not hurting.

In this episode, we explore the fascinating yet controversial realms of telepathy, remote viewing, and other supernatural claims. We take a look at the Stargate Project, a secretive U.S. government experiment aimed at investigating paranormal phenomena during the Cold War. We discuss key figures involved, including advocates who believed in abilities like phasing through walls and remote viewing secret installations. We delve into the credibility of these projects, touching upon elements such as the involvement of high-ranking Scientologists and various debunked claims. Additionally, we analyze the telepathy tapes, mind reading claims, and the influence of mysticism on modern thought.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] he was a key sponsor and advocate for the Stargate Project, he believed soldiers could phase through solid objects by harnessing natural power and positive thinking. Okay, I'm picturing so many people just running into walls hold. He reportedly attempted this himself in his office, repeatedly running into a wall and injuring his nose.

Oh yeah. 'cause you gotta believe it. So you gotta lead with your face. Positive thinking. I just can't let it get me down. But it's just I bet if I have positive enough thoughts, I'm gonna phase through a wall. Like, where's the metaphysics of that? What religion believes this?

The telepathy tapes Simone is actually diagnosed autistic

Speaker 6: You can read minds.

Simone Collins: And people are having the same reaction.

Would you like to know more?

Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here today. Today we are gonna be talking about two things.

Malcolm Collins: The telepathy tapes [00:01:00] and the various government projects that claim to see the supernatural. Project Stargate

I'm going into both of these because these are two areas where I have seen otherwise rational people like Rudyard, for example, one of all his who's been on the show he has one like episode that like very earnestly looks at these government programs. Oh, and listen to that one on an airplane. Yes.

Speaker: Premier me. A solution of Annica Montana Stack. Strength. One point in a million are sure it looks serious. You're right. We need to strengthen the dose. One point in 10 million the chakras are fading. We need some crystals that there should be some purple T quartz. Damnit, you're right. Make that aquamarine quartz. .

Speaker 2: Have a look at this, Simon.

What is it? Don't think this poor chap's got long to live. Why not? It's lifeline very short.

Speaker: Unless. Wait, why we could try drawing a bit more lifeline on with Biro? It didn't ever work.

You got a better idea.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I'm just like, [00:02:00] oh. Boy you maybe should have dug a bit deeper on this before taking this at face value. Basically when we get to it, what you're gonna learn is like all of the high level people were also high level people in Scientology

Okay. To clarify here, only like half were in Scientology. The other were in other weird mystical traditions, but we'll get into those specifically when we get to it.

Malcolm Collins: and in Scientology

Simone Collins: specifically. Yeah. It was basically a Scientology into the US government.

Malcolm Collins: Um, It was, it was basically a, a a, a small branch of the US government that Scientologists extremists took over. And how do we get this? Made a bunch of reports. And the people like Rudyard then come across them and take them seriously. But it's the same as we go into the telepathy tapes, we're gonna go into, Why people believe them because you, the way they present them, it can seem plausible. And then we're gonna go over historical cases that were similar to this, like the case of clever. How do you know? Clever. Clever Hans? Maybe clever how the horse that could do math. [00:03:00] No, basically this exact same thing happened before, and it's funny because in the, in the telepathy tapes, they take the methods they're using on humans and they apply them to animals in one episode.

Oh no. And they're like, animals are telepathic too. It's like, oh my god. Literal, clever hosing it here. Well, you know what,

Simone Collins: this like, I can't help but think of this concept of people thinking that autistic people can, can read minds or are telepathic. Because of that one lander line where the female journalist is like, she confesses, she says, I.

Was bulimic. What? And lander's like you can read minds. And Hansel has this great like, and that's, I feel like I am autistic

Speaker 6: You can read minds.

Simone Collins: And people are having the same [00:04:00] reaction. You can read minds,

Malcolm Collins: oh my god. By the way, Simone is actually diagnosed autistic as are. I thought you were gonna say, I'm

Simone Collins: actually telepathic.

Malcolm Collins: Actually. Telepathic. Okay. So parents and caregivers report that their children can quote, unquote read thoughts such as guessing random numbers, words, or colors that someone else is thinking of, even when separated by rooms or distances. For instance, it experiments described children reportedly achieved 95% accuracy in guessing.

Three digit numbers or specific details. EG, parent's mental image without any verbal or visual cues. Dr. Powell, a former Harvard faculty member and Parapsychologists claims to have documented this in controlled settings suggests it's not random, but a form of mind to mind transition. And he goes on here to say that there's other gifts as well that these people have.

They can see auras. Colored energy fields around people and animals and plants that help diagnose things, speak or understand [00:05:00] multiple languages they've never learned. Play musical instruments per at a perfect pitch and recall a song instantly Predict future events and visit people in their dreams.

Perceive time. Now, I, I'd always note on the predicting future events, one, like whenever somebody's like X person can predict future events, I'm like, why aren't they rich? Why, why aren't they rich? If they can do this accurately, why aren't they rich? You know, they should be incredibly easy to play markets if you can predict future events.

And they're like, markets aren't personally meaningful to them. And I'm like, okay, put their life savings on a market. Now it's personally, now it's emotionally salient if they lose in the future.

Simone Collins: It'd be really cool though if like all the secret billionaires in the world just actually are. They can just see into the future.

They just keep their mouth shut. You know, like the way it's gonna be when someone like cracks quantum computing and they just start, you know, mining a bunch of Bitcoin, but they keep it quiet. They don't go too far. So no one notices. And then a bunch of people like act as though they can do this and they can't really, you know, all the financial, you'd actually be able to

Malcolm Collins: tell really quickly.[00:06:00]

Simone Collins: Well say that's, that's a, that's a relief.

Malcolm Collins: Enough people monitor the way billionaires invest, that if they were doing something like that, they'd immediately be flagged for insider trading. And I mean, they, they could develop an algorithm that prevented that from happening, but I don't think they'd get away with it for like, it, it would be more difficult.

Yeah. Just 'cause you

Simone Collins: can tell the future doesn't mean you're good with algorithms,

Malcolm Collins: but I, I'm talking about these people aren't even, like, their main income sources isn't even investing and at the very least it should be. Yeah. You know, perceived time non-linearly, eg. Foreseeing accidents weeks in advance or since energy flows in geometric patterns that align with concepts from quantum physics or ancient mysticism.

So how does he explain this? Dr. Powell proposes that autism isn't just a quote unquote disorder, but a neurodivergent state where the brain filters less information allowing access to a shared informational field or collective consciousness. She links this to brain structures like en large ventricles high.

Heightened midline activity or overactive [00:07:00] pineal gland, often called the third eye in spiritual traditions. And you see, this is why we shouldn't let women be doctors. This is a, this, this was a mistake here.

Speaker 8: Well he was riding his bike when there was a lightning strike And now he rigs real fast, he's good at science and math, black doctor I'm gonna go out on a limb here, where exactly did he get the bike? He stole it! Right, that's what I thought.

Malcolm Collins: No, but joking.

Some episodes suggest that this be an evolutionary trait with autistic individuals as tuned receivers for subtle energies and neurotypical people ignore. Due to reliance on language and logic, context and popularity.

It had gained traction through endorsements like Joe Rogan who discussed it on his show in 2024.

Simone Collins: No. And

Malcolm Collins: Russ Shart, a UFO journalist who interviewed OWL in 2025. Oh. So this is thank you Joe Rogan. I was actually just talking with a [00:08:00] reporter from Politico and she goes, well, you know, who could, like, who's a new right figure who could beat JD Vance in the next election cycle?

It's like Joe Rogan probably could.

Simone Collins: Rogan for president. Really? Well,

Malcolm Collins: presidential candidate, I think he clean up. Yeah. And it would help his career as well. So you know why not?

Simone Collins: Oh no. Alright.

Malcolm Collins: You didn't think about that, but it would,

Simone Collins: didn't, it would. Well, I mean, I think, you know, I, the Trump's first run was largely inspired by that too. Like at least it's good for press. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: All right, so, let's go into some of the episodes and claims in the show.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Starting with the one that I think people find most compelling.

Mind reading was near perfect accuracy and control tests. One standout story involves a 13-year-old nonverbal girl named Mia, who reportedly demonstrated tele leprosy by accurately identifying words, numbers, and objects that were shown only to her mother while Mia was blindfolded in a separate [00:09:00] space.

In Tess. Filmed by podcast host Key Dickens and psychiatrist Dr. Diane. Hennessy Powell Mia achieved 100% accuracy, such as spelling out random numbers or words like those on hidden slips of paper. Her mother described this as a shared consciousness where Mia could tap into her thoughts effortlessly. I think a control protocol.

Okay, so Mia was blindfolded and separated from direct view of the stimuli. Her mother was shown a target, EG, a random three digit number, like 6, 9, 8, a word slip on a slip of paper or a page from a book showing a character like a per. Or pirate the mother might react verbally, EEG exclaiming, oh, in excitement or physically touch me at EEG on the hand or forehead or jaw for support, quote unquote.

This a diversity of places to touch someone for support. You're beginning to see why people are like. Why didn't you just leave the mother in the other room? Why did you let her come back [00:10:00] and interact with the child? After the mother internalized the information, Mia removed the blindfold and it spelled out the answer by pointing at letters on the board held by her mother as well.

By the way, you just, you know, if you're creating one of these, you, you wouldn't have the mother doing all of that if you actually

Simone Collins: yeah. Mother stays in the separate room. Daughter never sees mother.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Variations In one test, the mother opened the book to a random page and asked Mia to identify the character Mia spelled Perta, which matched another involved sorting colored Popsicle sticks while blindfolded.

The mother handed Mia a stick. Why does the mother keep interacting with her in these? Well, we'll see why in just a second kept her hand on Mia's forehead or blindfold and Mia moved her hand, her hand, left or right to drop it in the correct spot. Tess was the father used similar random stimuli, but Mia either stopped mid response or failed to answer.

It only works with the mother. How curious, how curious that doesn't it all minstrel mirror the clever [00:11:00] how? The way clever how was debunked? Duration and repetition sessions included multiple trials by footage, but footage shown was selective. EG they always showed it working but they didn't show the full footage.

Now they say, oh, the reason we had to show it to you in short clips. Was one so that it could be a paywall, but for 9 89 to view it on the podcast site. Oh, but Mia's anxiety was noted as a factor, increasing her need for physical support from the mother. But then why did physical support from the father who she apparently trusted as well also work?

Simone Collins: No comment.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway yeah, the, the father thing to me is a big hole in that one.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Um,

Malcolm Collins: And they're like, oh, well there were, there were witnesses. And I'm like, yeah. And all the witnesses careers required this working out in a specific way. Like, why don't you do this with skeptical people?

Why don't you, it'd be an easy thing to do, to do with one of the debunkers, right? Like, there's people who. Make their career debunking paranormal frauds. Why not just call one of them in and, and, [00:12:00] and if it works in the way you say it works, they would immediately convert to your way of thinking and you could convert a lot of disbelievers.

But they don't do that. They keep it only within the realm of other believers. Now we've got another one here. Composing music through Lucid Dreams. Now, some of these are, are most of these, other than that first one, it's like, I don't even need to debunk something. It's just pretty obvious what's going on.

Okay. So in this one, a mother in England shared a vivid account of her nonverbal autistic son communicating with her via dreams to co-create music. Starting at age 11, the sun would appear to her in Lucid Dreams handing her. Symbolic items like an Ace of Spades card to convey .

Needs such as specific supplements over time this involved in him. So basically she thought her son was coming to her in her dreams and telling her supplements and stuff that she needed to give him. Which is kind of sad 'cause that's probably not what was happening. She was giving her son random supplements.

[00:13:00] But you know, kooky granola people be kooky granola people, right. Over time, this evolved into him, quote unquote, delivering full musical compositions directly into her mind. During these dream states, the son now a respected musician reportedly uses this message to collaborate with her transmitting melodies and lyrics that she then records.

This story was highlighted as an example of telepathy blending with creativity, suggesting nonverbal individuals can access and share ideas non physically. This is just a sad case of the mother crediting her music to her nonverbal autistic son.

Simone Collins: Oh, nonverbal.

Okay, so, so more information on this particular case. The son can actually sing. He just can't compose the music on his own. So his mom composes the music and then gives the music to him, and, , he copies her to learn how to sing it. , And some of these songs have become famous of, like, autistic guy sings supposedly about having autism.

The mom writes the songs about having autism [00:14:00] inspired by her son's life. , What's interesting about this case is never before 2014 when the telepathy tapes came out. Had this, this kid or mom, both of whom were fairly famous for their songs, ever mentioned this communication from , through dreams or anything like that.

This is completely unique to the telepathy tapes and sort of comes outta nowhere. I.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I was gonna ask if the son had attested to this, but he can't because he can't talk.

Malcolm Collins: Very convenient.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Telepathic romance and communication with the deceased. So here's a, here's a fun one. Okay. Particularly emotional tale. Oh this. Mm. This. It's questionable here. Oh no. Two nonverbal autistic teens, 20-year-old lily and 17-year-old JP were said to have fallen in love primarily through mind to mind communication.

They [00:15:00] reportedly talked telepathically, synchronizing actions like texting to meet at the exact same moment.

Simone Collins: That's something

Malcolm Collins: all people do when they're dating is teens. They're just like, oh my gosh, they're dream. We texted each other at the same moment. Oh, okay. That's just proof that, that we can, and then, and shared interests like biking or poetry, though They're very unique.

Simone Collins: You like long watching walks on beaches as well. Oh my God. It could only be the work of, it's crazy. Tell me, no paranormal. Do you like pumpkin spice? Is this also a thing that you're crazy about?

Malcolm Collins: Yep. I dunno. I, I, I, I imagine like they sit across from each other. Do you like pumpkin spice lattes too. And then it plays that music done.

Done. Like, like something scary. Poetry, Don.

Oh God. Anyway, tragically after JP P'S death, we really continued to communicate with him spelling messages. Like I see him as energy. He [00:16:00] tells me he loves me and for me to tell our story.

Simone Collins: Oh, just let her believe that. That's

Malcolm Collins: sad. Yeah, but not a lot in there that I can't explain. Like this is the thing.

There's just not a lot of great evidence in here. No. Here's another one. Accessing knowledge through other senses and predicting the future. Several families recounted their children, borrowing other senses, such as a nonverbal child, reading entire books like Harry Potter by tapping into his siblings mind while they read.

Okay. Others claim to see through teachers' eyes or hear through their ears compensating for their own sensory challenges. Additionally, kids reportedly predicted events like warning parents about a bad land purchase via messages from the other side.

Simone Collins: I love that the ghost are, are getting into to real estate.

This is an only

Malcolm Collins: sound purchase [00:17:00] or new historical facts. There's a fun, no historical fact. One of this woman who lives in Egypt and thinks she's like a reincarnated Egyptian. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, it is fun. She's living her best life. She dresses up like a, like a ancient Egyptian and lives in Egypt now.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: go for it. You go for it. Yeah. Yeah. We need

Simone Collins: more of that in the world.

Malcolm Collins: Absolutely. I haven't looked into what's ridiculous about the, these ones? I like the, the, the warning about a bad land purchase. Did the land purchase turn out to be bad

So this one took place in India, and , it turns out that what the kids said was something like that the well on the land is bad, , or that the land purchase was going to be bad. And then the parents did another inspection and they found a bad well on the land. I mean, it's anecdotal, but it's, you know, something.

Simone Collins: yeah. Feel like these days, more often than not, it's, it's a negatory, but my gosh, this is. This is so interesting. Yeah. Know it

Malcolm Collins: actually [00:18:00] but apparently this has been very convincing to post rats.

Simone Collins: Well, you know what's interesting actually though, now that I'm thinking about like our kids' explanations for a lot of things.

Mm-hmm. What do they pretty much always say when we ask them, who took this thing? Who did this thing? Ghosts. Who broke ghosts? It is, it is

Malcolm Collins: ghosts. Oh yeah. Our family. If we were inclined to believing in ghosts, our kids, I get you. Not every time, every time ghosts, we ghost down and there's a mess. The kids will say, we didn't ghost did it.

We'll be like, you did

Simone Collins: it the ghost. Ghost is,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Simone Collins: It was the ghost. Which Ghost is,

Malcolm Collins: ghost is. Gosh. They even said when you asked them what do you think mommy does all day? And they said, fighting ghosts.

Simone Collins: You know, it's true. Right? It's what us artists have to do. I wonder if like Yeah, maybe The thing is the parents are.

Unknowingly autistic too, and therefore too credulous, and they just kind of believe stuff too [00:19:00] easily. And and that's also an understated factor here. Yeah. Where they're not trying to mislead people, they just literally don't get it. That like when their kid says or expresses that something is coming from beyond the veil.

Their kids just saying stuff.

Malcolm Collins: So, so the thing is was this, is, this isn't the first time this has happened either. No, this happened in, when I was growing up with something called Indigo Children. Do you remember Indigo Children?

Simone Collins: The, it rings a bell. I can't define it though. So

Malcolm Collins: parents didn't wanna beg believe their children were just like.

Autistic or slow or something. Okay. And so they believed that they were a new generation that had been gifted, like a unique amount of empathy. Oh, and intelligence and like the ability to like see the future and stuff by like aliens or something. Okay. Or like mystical forces. And they thought that humanity was waking in.

To like a new hyper evolved age.

Speaker 11: Sarafina was diagnosed as indigo at a young age by her mother

Speaker 12: I began delving into [00:20:00] spirituality and vibrations past lives.

Simone Collins: Oh, fun. Indigo children. I mean, now I, I think, yeah, this, this is, and you see other forms of this cope showing up with terms like two E or twice exceptional, where parents are like, oh, it's not just that my son is autistic, he's two e. And that like, okay, yeah, he's autistic, but he's like also really good at math or like amazing at the violin.

'cause they're trying to say that they're twice exceptional. Like they're, they're. Okay. Maybe there's this one thing where they're like, really, like he's nonverbal, but like he is really good at this and that makes him notable. But I feel like that's the modern version of that. But then the telepathy tapes is this, well,

Malcolm Collins: but it isn't because these kids aren't exceptional in any way.

They are just autistic. Just

Simone Collins: admit that your kids are who they are. Like stop trying to make them into something they're not. Let them lean into their strengths and their strengths are not supernatural.

Malcolm Collins: Well, you know, this one, unless you can

Simone Collins: sell them, like I know, like if you can set up an Etsy shop for your autistic [00:21:00] kid where they do their readings, as, as you know, we were looking yesterday, people were selling spells for $345.

Mine mind. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Mind breaks. So let's go to that day delivery thing again. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna go into this because I wanna go into how ridiculous it is. Okay. Okay. In Mia's test, her mother or other facilitator physically supports her by holding the letter board, grasping her chin. Oh, placing a finger on her forehead or making contact while Mia points to letters.

Simone Collins: It's a human Ouija board.

Malcolm Collins: She's

Simone Collins: just.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Podcast show the mother adjusting the board's position loo her body or pushing me in ways that could subtly guide her towards the quote unquote correct letters, even if unintentionally. And when we get to the Clever Hal case, it was unintentional. So we know this can happen unintentionally.

Simone Collins: No, I think most of this is innocent. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Video analysis by Mentalist Peter Turner revealed the mother's hands guiding me as movements.

So to be clear what I'm saying here, a guy whose full-time job is tricking people with magic tricks, [00:22:00] watched even the limited and edited video that we have access to of this and was like, oh, here's how she's doing it. Here's exactly what she's doing, and this is a very common way of performing this particular trick.

Malcolm Collins: This is classic fc, which was popularized in the 1990s and debunked by over 60 double-blind studies showing that when the facilitator doesn't know the answer, EG has shown a different issue than the child.

The communication fails entirely. Pals, powell's similar early experiments with a child named Haley. In 2014, used a divider for quote unquote separation, but the facilitator still had the stencil and knew the answers. Allowing for unconscious queuing through posture shifts, verbal prompts, eg.

Announcing decimals or waiting for. Quote unquote correct selections before proceeding. These weren't truly blinded and results couldn't be replicated under stricter conditions. While the podcast claims separation, Mia blindfolded the area prevents signaling, we know this is not the case. So, this is where I wanna get to clutter, Hans.

'cause I think [00:23:00] that this, this, it's a story that everyone should know because it helps you see similarities like this. So around 19 hundreds, a retired math teacher named William Vaughn Austin acquired a horse named Hans and trained him over several years to perform seemingly advanced task. Hans would answer questions by tapping his hoof a certain number of times, or nodding slash shaking his head.

For example, he would be asked to add three plus five. Hans would tap eight times. He could reportedly solve more complex problems like square roots, fractions, or even non mass tasks, such as identifying musical notes, telling time from a clock, spelling words in German. Or distinguishing colors. Vaughn Austin genuinely believed Hans was intelligent and demonstrated this publicly in Berlin attracting crowds, scientists, and media attention.

Hans performed for free and Vaughn Austin never charged money, insisting it was proof of animal cognition. The horse's ability drew international. So you say he not trying to make.

He is trying to [00:24:00] show I got a smart horse. Check it out. Or, yeah, he's

Simone Collins: like, he seems like some kind of proto pita person to be like, listen, animals are are intelligent. Although I'm looking at pictures of clever Hans right now and I think that horse is under fed. I don't know. He looks a little, maybe the horse is today

Malcolm Collins: are too fat, but he looks a little too spelt for me.

So, in 1907, psychologist Oscar Funt conducted a more rigorous investigation. 'cause there had been light investigations before this, but this guy's like, okay, let's, let's actually put controls in place. He discovered Hans wasn't actually doing math or thinking independently. Instead, the horse was extensively sensitive to subtle, unintentional cues for the person asking the question.

Cool, quote, unquote handler or questioner. Key findings. Hans would start tapping when a question was posed and stop when he reached the correct number. Funks notice that the questioner, including Austin, would unconsciously tense up, shift posture slightly, or raise eyebrows, or even alter their breathing.

As Hans [00:25:00] approach the right answer, these micro signals often invisible to the naked eye. Prompted Hans to stop tapping, for instance, a slight forward lean or widening of the eye signaled. That's it. The control experiment. When the questioner didn't know the answer, eeg, the problems were hidden from them.

Hans's accuracy dropped in near zero, no. Similarly, if the questioner was out of sight, behind a screen, or were a blindfold, Hans failed. But if a new handler was introduced, who knew the answer? Han regained his skills showing it wasn't specific to Von Austin, but that any human providing clues would cause this effect.

Importantly. So Hans

Simone Collins: was clever. He was a clever boy. He was clever, just

Malcolm Collins: not in the way they thought. And this created something called the Clever Hans Effect. And the, the guy, clearly if you had a horse and anyone you put in front of this horse, it would get to the right number. You're gonna be like this horse.

No mother. Ah. But apparently it didn't know. It was just very good at telling. And, and these sorts of controls are [00:26:00] what was not put in place with the telepathy files. And so we literally just have clever huns over again now that they're applying their same experimental protocol to animals.

Simone Collins: Horses really are smart though.

Every time I've ridden a horse, it's gone terribly wrong, and it's because they can smell fear. They just know. There was Fritz the the fat pony, my first ever horse experience riding him in the Santa Cruz mountains and he just exhaled. Really heavily and the saddle loosened up and after riding sort of upside down on the saddle, clinging to it for as long as I could on a steep hill side, I just, I came falling off.

Fritz lost me. And then there was buzz opposite. He wasn't himself a fat horse, but he was a very, very large horse for obese people in Hawaii that I found myself riding. He discovered that I absolutely had no assertiveness or ability to exert control. And so he just ran away from everyone galloping very quickly.

So Buzz and Fritz, clever [00:27:00] buzz, clever Fritz, clever horses not, not psychic.

Malcolm Collins: So now let's go to Project Stargate because, 'cause I, I promised you guys we'd get into that stuff that they called it Stargate. Yeah, they called it Stargate. That ARD thought meant that we have if you're gonna say that like telepathic phenomenon exists, you need enormous proof for this, right?

Yeah. And the US government running stuff would be enormous proof. I mean, yeah, if the US government hadn't shut it all down specifically because it wasn't producing results if it was producing results, they would've kept it going and you wouldn't know about these programs. And the thing is, is that the people who were high up these programs and like talking about these programs, it's not like these programs were because each of these programs had been secretly successful.

And it turns out that what they were doing was just making it look like they failed and then taking the higher ups and putting them on more advanced stuff. Yeah. The higher ups wouldn't be on talk shows complaining about the program that's being shut down. Right. That's fair. And, and, and being Scientologists and other sorts of like wacko stuff saying [00:28:00] that demons talk to them and stuff like that.

No, wait, they're Scientology is demons. No, no, no. These are other people involved. Oh. There was a lot of crazy people involved in this. Alright, this is, great project. Stargate was a secretive US government program, primarily run by the US Army and defense intelligence. That investigated paranormal phenomenon for potential military and intelligence applications active around the 1970s until its determination.

In 1995, the program's core focus was on quote unquote remote viewing the alleged psychic ability. To perceive distant or hidden events, sites, or information through extrasensory means without physical presence. It began amid the Cold War over fears that the Soviet Union was advancing. Parapsychology prompting the United States to explore similar capabilities for espionage such as locating enemy installations or missing persons.

The program involved experiments conducted at the Stanford Research Institute. SRI International and later Fort Mead, Maryland with a small team of quote unquote viewers who claim to sketch or describe targets based on coordinates or vague prompts. Okay. [00:29:00] Project Sun Streak was a smaller part of this based on remote viewing.

It operated the DIA from 1989 to 1990. It presented a continu refinement of earlier programs like grill flame and center Lane emphasizing psychogenics mental processes for the intelligence gathering. So Psychogenics, they wanted to see if, if they could like view Soviet installations and stuff like that from far away using psychic powers.

Isn't it sweet

Simone Collins: that we can just. We can just do that now with like modern technology. One

Malcolm Collins: notable declassified example was a 1988 attempt to physically locate the biblical arc of the covenant aw ordinance to quote unquote view it's supposed resting place in Ethiopia or elsewhere. That's so sweet.

They're like, well, if we could find anything. Let's find the arc. Well, it would prove them, right? Like this is the thing, right? If this stuff worked, you should be able to do things like find the arc. The fact that you can't find [00:30:00] the arc shows that it's not working. I don't know.

Simone Collins: What if you're, you're finding abilities are based on, like, I know the shape of it.

You know, I, there's a, you know, the dimensions, or I know what it feels like textually or I. You know, I, I don't, I don't, I don't buy that 'cause no one knows exactly what the arc looks like. I know the Bible has this very specific descriptions, but. By the

Malcolm Collins: way, it was shut down after $20 million in two decades of, oh,

Simone Collins: oh.

This makes USAID look saintly. Oh, dear. No.

Malcolm Collins: Remember this is the program where they would do stuff like stare at goats to try to kill him to see. Did that for work?

Simone Collins: Did the ghosts just die of boredom?

Okay, so the official sources say no goats died. But, , people who were involved say goats died. So, , guy C's claim Elli, a martial arts instructor recruited for the program, asserted he killed a goat by staring at it during an experiment with 30 numbered goats. So basically he [00:31:00] was, you know, so we don't have a goat die randomly and then say, Hey, I killed that goat.

So he targeted goat number 16, but claimed that an accident caused him to. Accidentally kill goat number 17. Instead,

a separate video of a goat experiment showed its heart rate dropped temporarily from 65 to 55 beats per minute. , what I love so much, it's a ge claim, which appears to be false because it's not in the, the military records, , that, that he did this. He didn't even do it right in his made up claim. He, he targeted the wrong goat. I, I guess that's to make it sound more believable.

Malcolm Collins: If we had invented the Death Dare, we'd be using it in battle. We'd have our psychic troops like, like Yuri does from Red Alert too going into battle, like, if this was something we could do.

So let's talk about the people involved in this. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Speaker 16: the device is called a psychic dominator. There is a network of such devices spread across the globe. More of your mind control tricks. Not [00:32:00] tricks, Mr. President. In a few moments, I will unleash a tidal wave of psychic energy designed to dominate the minds of an entire planet.

There will be no more free will. Only my will.

Simone Collins: So,

Malcolm Collins: How. Per off the physicist and SRI project director per off who led the SRI viewing experiments funded by the CRA was deeply involved in Scientology in the 1960s and seventies. He reached the advanced open Faan OT level. Seven.

Wow. Really high. By 1971 a stage. How high does it go? I don't, how is that? I can't remember. I think it might only go to eight.

So at this level, uh, you would definitely know about Zou. The highest level is eight. So he was one level away from the highest possible level.

Malcolm Collins: Oh. Okay. Eight. Eight or nine a stage in Scientology involving beliefs in body setons, disembodied spirits attached to humans, and auditing to remove them for spiritual enlightenment.

POV [00:33:00] credited Scientology was giving him absolute fearlessness and wrote positively about it. Though he severed ties in the late seventies, his Scientology background influenced early experiments as he incorporated techniques resembling Scientology's e-meter, a device for measuring spiritual states into psychic research.

So this wasn't just a government researching psychic stuff. They were using the literal emmets that Scientologists use in their research to prove that this stuff was real. And I know that this was actually true. Throughout this so, we've got another guy here I io Swan. So, Swan claimed to, he, he was the key remote viewer, the guy who did like, seeing things far away.

So when you're, like, when you hear about somebody did remote viewing correctly, you're hearing about this guy often. And he might have even developed the term remote viewing. And he was the co-developer of the remote viewing protocols. So sort of the, the lead both participant and researcher on a lot of these projects.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: [00:34:00] So, he was a celebrity Scientologist in the 1970s where he achieved high OT levels and wrote essays on how Scientology's techniques could enhance psychic integration and consciousness exploration. Swan viewed himself as a consciousness researcher who experienced altered states blending psychology, Scientology Seton based cosmology.

With his claims of astral projection and astro terrestrial encounters, seeing alien bases on the moon. He featured in Scientology publications and defended his paradigms for SI research. Though he laid his distance himself for it somewhat, note that that was not his only crazy things. He claimed to have psychologically explored the dark side of the moon during a session allegedly tasked.

By a secret government agency, so the government was paying him. He's exploring the far side of the moon. What does he see there? He describes seeing alien bases with structures like towers and domes, where humanoid figures engaged in mining operations using advanced machinery. He believes these beings were extra extraterrestrials monitoring earth.

And he detailed encounters wisdom [00:35:00] in his book Penetration, suggesting a hidden UFO presence with that govern that governments were covering up, SWAN also reported telepathic interactions with those entities, viewing them as part of a broader cosmic intelligence. How did he get

Simone Collins: away with that book title?

Good God.

And note here, I'm not scoffing here because he believes in aliens or UFOs or something like that. All that stuff is perfectly reasonable to have skepticism around, but believing that there are aliens that look humanoid with large mining operations on the dark side of the moon is something quite different.

Why would they set something like that up? We'd almost certainly have the technology to detect that at this point. And why would they look like humans? I mean, I can see plausible reasons for each of these things. It's just one of those, it's a bit too big and a bit too specific and a said with a bit too much confidence to not just come off as crazy town.

Malcolm Collins: But what I'm pointing out here is if [00:36:00] these had actually worked, like if the lead guy in this actually was able to do this. And then they had decided to cover it up, which is what would have to happen. 'cause the program was for public knowledge shut down in disgrace. This guy would not be making his money on like.

Going to paranormal conferences and writing book tours. Right. And, and doing the Scientology rounds. Right. He would be, he would be at, don't you understand? He lives

Simone Collins: this illustrious TV style double life whereby day he's on the talk shows. And then it doesn't take that long to astral project and explore the dark side of the moon.

I mean, please, you can do it in five minutes. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, ed Dames so much

Simone Collins: money. Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, Edie Dames was one of the others in this. So, Dames conducted what he called the most dangerous experiment Mm. Attempting to remotely view Satan or the devil himself. Oh. He described the [00:37:00] entity not as a biblical demon, but as a fallen angel who delights in orchestrating human suffering and global catastrophes.

During these sessions, Dame reported terrifying visions of demonic forces and warned that psychic exploration. Could invite spiritualists. The government didn't

Simone Collins: pay someone to look at Satan. Wait, was this

Malcolm Collins: government funded? Yeah, government funded. He also predicted apocalyptic events through remote viewing, including a massive solar kill shot that would devastate the earth alien invasions and other domesday scenarios tied to extraterrestrial threats and biblical prophecies.

I hope you're getting an idea here. I think when people like Ruby Yard discuss this. No, nothing about Ruby Yard. I made a mistake in a recent episode too. I, I looked into all the money that Qatar was spending on US universities, and I assumed they were doing it for influence, but it turned out they were doing it to set up universities in their own country.

But it was branches of US universities and so that wasn't actually a smoking gun for influence. And I said that just because I didn't. Do the second step in the research. 'cause I didn't think to, I, it's like, why else would they be [00:38:00] giving so much money to US universities? You know, they do appear to also give the, the, you know, Hamas' major donor, like the universities are going into lined up in my mind, but it was wrong.

In, in this case not that Qatar isn't influencing US policy to be more pro Hamas or that they don't have an interest in doing that. It's just the university donation thing was not the smoking gun. I thought it was. But with, with so I'm, I'm pointing out here. I make mistakes too. I can see you're Rudyard, you're somebody else.

This stuff is presented to you by somebody who's pro this stuff, right? And so they come up to you and they're like, well, they were able to see like these, these distant crashes, and then they went and they visited the crash and it was exactly where they said it was. And you're like, oh, that's really cool like that, that's, I, I have no other way.

And the government was doing this. The CIA was doing this. Like, man, that sounds super legit. And then somebody else says. And everyone involved was a high ranking Scientologist, [00:39:00] and they thought they were talking to demons, and, and then you're like, whoa, why didn't, first, why didn't you mention this to me?

No, not everyone involved with a high ranking Scientologist, but a, a, a number of the leading figures were. And typically when you go into this government stuff and then you just need to like research who was doing it, who was running it, what other crazy things did this person say, oh, aliens are about to take over the earth, and the son's about to shoot us, and he talked to the devil, maybe.

Maybe I'm gonna take this.

The plane was exactly where I thought it was with a bit more of a grain of salt after I see the other stuff.

All right. Let's go into some of the cases that people are like, this stuff just can't be explained any other way. So first, , io Swan, the Scientology guy we talked about before was tasked, was describing Jupiter's rings. Before any spacecraft had imaged them closely, he reported a ring system around the planet describing it as [00:40:00] a band of crystals.

Alright, great. , The problem , is that jovial rings had actually already been predicted to be made up of particles, , , in scientific literature from occlusion data in the 1950s. , And all, most of the other information he gave about the planet was wrong. They, they don't mention that. They mention, oh, , the explanation of the rings, but he got a bunch of other stuff wrong about the planet.

Okay, price was given coordinates. This is, , pat Price for a Soviet nuclear test site in Kazaki Stan. He described Undergrown facilities, a large crane, spherical tanks, particle beam research details matching classified US intelligence later confirmed by satellite imagery. , Unfortunately. This is what price told people until things were declassified, and it found out that this particular viewing was considered a failure.

, The stuff he described, like a large cran and spherical tanks were pretty much ubiquitous across the sites at the time. , And the information he gave in [00:41:00] terms of like layout of the facility and everything was wrong. All right. What about this one? McGonal remotely viewed a Soviet shipyard describing a massive new submarine with 20 missile tubes, a flat deck, and twin nuclear reactors.

He predicted its launch date was in days satellite photos later can confirm. The typhoon class sub existed as described except the typhoon class, , was very similar to just like a larger version of preexisting Soviet types. And we already had some intelligence, , leaks on the typhoon type class, , that it's very likely he might have had access to, , given the guy who is running this, which we'll get into in a second and would've just pretend that he didn't know about, , for the launch date coincidence.

, I mean, they're like, it was close. It wasn't right on the dot. Okay. Next. What, what about, . McGonigal when he helped, , dozers captivity in Italy where he was held by Red Brigade terrorists, , including building details and nearby [00:42:00] landmarks this aided in his rescue. Okay, so this one is often, , mistold here.

, The psychics did participate and people did listen to what the psychics told them in terms of trying to find the guy. The problem , is that everything that they listened to, like going to Verona instead of Ottawa. Led to a dead end. , He was actually found through conventional police methods and himself.

The guy who was found said the psychics had nothing to do with me being found. , But because the psychics were involved. And a few of the building details matched up. Even though all the information they gave that was followed, turned out to be a waste of time, , they claimed that they, , actually helped find this.

Now let's go to the guy who was running all of this so we can understand why when you hear things like, oh, there's no other way to explain that, you can't exactly trust what was written down or reported until we got the leak documents.

Malcolm Collins: So let's keep going here. Major General Albert Burt Stub, Lamine II with a high [00:43:00] ranking US Army officer who served as a commander of the US Army Intelligence and National Security.

From 1981 to 1984, he was a key sponsor and advocate for the Stargate Project, pushing for its funding and integration into military intelligence operations beyond Stargate. He was involved with other government backed paranormal investigations, including predecessors like Girl Frame and center lane, which evolved into Stargate as well as High Performance Task Force.

So another thing that's important to note is. All of, or almost all of these projects that the government had that showed paranormal stuff were run by one guy who was a true believer and willing to just hire anyone. In terms of like the credibility of these people. Mm-hmm. You think if you're trying to prove paranormal things, the last person you'd hire is a high ranking Scientologist or much less multiple high ranking Scientologists.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Skeptics would

Simone Collins: be better,

Malcolm Collins: but. Yes. So he was notorious for promoting a range of outlandish and fringe [00:44:00] ideas rooted in psychic and paranormal phenomenon, often inspired by new age concepts like First Earth Battalion Manual by Lieutenant Colonel Jim Chatan, which envisioned Warrior Monks using nonviolent mind based tactics.

Some of his most. Crazy ideas were he believed soldiers could phase through solid objects by harnessing natural power and positive thinking. Okay, I'm picturing so many people just running into walls hold. He reportedly attempted this himself in his office, repeatedly running into a wall and injuring his nose.

Oh yeah. 'cause you gotta believe it. So you gotta lead with your face. Positive thinking. I just can't let it get me down. Whack. Whack. I can just imagine somebody else like whatcha doing? I'm trying to run through the wall with the power of positive thinking. Oh my God. But it's just some metaphysic sense this, how do you even get to stage one with this?

How do you even go from [00:45:00] like, I bet if I have positive enough thoughts, I'm gonna phase through a wall. Like, where's the metaphysics of that? What religion believes this? What weird practice believes this? Anyway,

Simone Collins: this was the eighties. There were there were various substances out there at the time if memory serves that

Malcolm Collins: Oh.

That does make sense. Now they're thinking about some of other things.

Simone Collins: It's a lot of power possibly. He required

Malcolm Collins: his battalion commanders to learn how Tobin spoons with their minds, Allah, Yuri Geller, as part of training their psychic abilities. I, I do love this idea. And he thought. He, it's literally like that South park where the two groups of psychics fight against each other

Speaker 18: All right, everyone.

Oh goodness. What's going on? Stand Back mother. We're having a telekinetic Battle of men.[00:46:00]

Enough.

Malcolm Collins: whoa. Exactly what he is doing. Building a crew of these. Like he recruited that group of psychics to like go up to other military people. And then, and then of course what happens to them is what happens when, when we see them on the battlefield, what happens to the psychics in South Park where they just immediately get shot?

Speaker 22: Get your head down. Spread up. Stand back. Don't make me do it. Don't make me do it.

The psychic Detective's horrible crime was found out by Psychic Detective Eric Corman. Who is now the only psychic not behind bars? What an amazing coincidence.

Simone Collins: Well, you know, yeah, like, I mean, there's so many projects like this. There was acoustic kitty, you know, just immediately got ran over.

Malcolm Collins: This is when they spent millions of dollars attaching equipment to a cat so that it could hear like what was going on around it, use it as a spy, and it was immediately run over.

He endorsed experiments where soldiers [00:47:00] tried to stop the heart of goats or other animals like hamsters, purely through intense mental focus and staring, aiming to develop non-lethal psychic weapons.

Simone Collins: Sounds very non-lethal, I guess. So it would stop the heart of a hamster, but it would just cause palpitations in a human, presumably, I guess.

Malcolm Collins: He advocated for training programs involving biofeedback, meditation, yoga, and extrasensory protection to create super soldiers capable of remote viewing mind control and pacifying enemies with harmonic sounds or positive vibes instead of traditional warfare.

Simone Collins: What's so interesting though, is that we have like these like targeted microwave attacks allegedly from the Russians now, and I mean, already, I, I can.

Typically non lethally compromise, actually a human within staring distance by using a taser. So there we have some solutions out. I think these solutions, the microwave

Malcolm Collins: attacks that you're talking about the ones that people thought happened in Cuba apparently [00:48:00] never happened.

Simone Collins: No,

Malcolm Collins: I'll double check it in post, but if I remember correctly, it came out that they, they were just being spazzes

Simone Collins: people.

They were just like psychosomatic nonsense.

Malcolm Collins: Psychosomatic nonsense. Oh,

Simone Collins: okay.

Okay, so apparently they did a number of investigations. All the investigations came back saying that it was psychosomatic, but some people still believe it's real. As you know, anyone would with something psychosomatic.

Simone Collins: Well,

Malcolm Collins: but and not that we don't have microwave weapons, and the Russians don't have microwave weapons that could f with a person. They just, this was not an instance of them being deployed. And I'm all for, I actually don't mind that they spent this money, and I'll tell you why.

What, what, no, Malcolm. Because, because. We need to know that this stuff doesn't work. Okay. Okay. We ran the stuff, the, the Never once was there a single thing of utility that came out of it. Mm-hmm. People can be like, oh, what about this individual thing? What about this individual thing that the core reports on it produced by people who weren't this one general say, there was nothing in the program we were able to [00:49:00] use.

So only the true believers. Found this stuff and you could be like, oh, well, like bad vibes are, are messing it up or something. Well, it had all of the best vibes. Okay.

Simone Collins: Right. And all of the true believers, it wasn't even like, oh, well, it's because the, their lack of faith caused the whatever to not work.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it still wasn't able to produce anything that anyone else could use.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It really worked. The military would've kept it. Yeah. These people wouldn't be on talk shows today. Okay. Yeah. They would be, I'm not denying that the government might cover it up and pretend it failed, but I am saying that everybody who left let, it wouldn't have like this guy did.

The, the core guy who funded all of it had to resign in disgrace.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that makes sense. And also. I don't, I don't imagine we would've developed military technologies that are now used to do much of the same things, like see what's going on within buildings, monitor things remotely, et cetera. Had we had [00:50:00] already such a strong and robust solution for them, so.

Yeah, if, if we'd figured out a way in the eighties to consistently do these things, we wouldn't have all of these other very expensive capabilities.

Malcolm Collins: That's a really strong point actually. There wouldn't be, like, if the government secretly had this capability, they wouldn't have concurrently invested in something that duplicates the capability.

Very

Simone Collins: expensively. Yeah, very

Malcolm Collins: expensively. Our spy satellite network, so it's, I I think we have pretty concrete evidence that this stuff didn't work. Mm-hmm. And with this stuff not working, that unfortunately blows up one of the core arguments people have for psychic stuff. And okay. So it's useful.

Simone Collins: Oh, you, you've given me a silver lining here 'cause I was getting a little. Well, no depressed. I mean,

Malcolm Collins: it gives us more evidence that psychic stuff probably isn't real. That there is not, you, you cannot make psychic weapons. You cannot I'm super okay

Simone Collins: with that.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and yeah, it's, it is just like, again, was this general, like everybody hears.[00:51:00]

Oh, they found this plane this one time in like a rare location and I was like the guy managing that report severely injured his nose from running into a wall multiple times trying to run through. It was the power of positive thought points

Simone Collins: for really being a believer though, right. The

Malcolm Collins: point I'm making is.

These reports weren't exactly being treated with a lot of scrutiny at the time. Yeah. And the people who were involved, like some of the farrs were even professional, like illusionists, IE fake magicians before going into this. Now they'll say, oh, well the stuff I did for them wasn't fake. Well, you were getting a paycheck buddy.

I have seen the stuff that magicians pull off and it looks pretty good. They just can't do it when they're against. A anti paranormal list. IE the people who are meant to detect this stuff, and I'll note that it was the CIA stuff, they never put in these, these anti-people to, to attempt to check or vet when they said, oh, this thing actually works.

Which would've been an easy thing to do, you know, that could've convinced people that could've gotten other people in the military on [00:52:00] board. But I think the people who are involved in this all know in the back of their heads that none of this is, is real. And I also see this when it comes to religious types who are like, well.

Some people are so pious that they can murder someone with a thought. And then, and I'm like, okay, or, or tell the future or see the future. And I'm like, okay, maybe that was true in the past, but if that was true today. You know, why aren't, why aren't these people super rich? Like, why aren't these people running their religions, right?

Like, and, and then showing us that they can do this stuff. Presumably that would help people's faith. And then they might be like, well, you can't do this stuff for personal gain. And I'm like, well, if you're a Jewish mystic, I'm sorry buddy, but your tradition doesn't say that. If you look at li b been LA.

What is it? Rabbi Ellie Eiser from the snake oil oven story, the snake oven story. Oh. He ended up killing the rabbis he was mad at for no reason other than being right. And God admitted that they were right, and he was so mad [00:53:00] that God admitted he was right, that he they had somebody follow him around so he wouldn't pray that they died.

And then one day the person like was pulled away from him or something, and so then he immediately got to them, starts praying that they die and they all die. Because he is a psychopath. But but, but clearly, you know, at least the Jews believe you can do this in a self-interested manner. And it works.

So what I'm saying is if these powers ever existed they certainly don't exist in populations today. Now, I, I, I point out that I do not believe they existed. And the people will be like, but you believe the Bible. And I believe, I believe that at the time these stories were written, people believed this stuff.

But I don't, I don't think that that's what it actually was. You know, one of the stories I always note from the Bible is, and I think that it's, it's a miraculous that this is preserved for us is Simon Magus you know. You as, unless we think that there were actually like multiple magicians, Christian and non-tradition people who had like real magical power walking around Israel at that time.

Okay? Maybe you can believe that. But you can believe, okay, there were a bunch of fraudsters, IE [00:54:00] magicians, which today we would call like paranormals I, we call them today, illusionists. Who, who walked around. And these people are what people would call magos, right? Like magicians at the time period.

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: We can be like, what, what happened if a, if a professional illusionist saw Jesus's magic? And we know from the story of Simon of Magos, he saw it and he goes, can I buy that trick? And Jesus really mad about this. But we know that a professional illusionist of that time period when he saw what Jesus was doing, thought it was an illusion.

And no, I don't see this as a bad thing at all. Like I don't see this as disconfirming that Christ was a Messiah or anything like that. You could go into our track series. But I don't think it was genuine magic. And I think that the Bible records it for us so that we won't think that, I mean, like obviously the Bible's meant to be interpreted by different people during different time periods.

Somebody during that time period was supposed to believe that it was magic. Somebody during the medieval period was supposed to believe it was magic. Somebody of today is supposed to be able to recognize. What did a professional illusionist think when he saw this? Oh, that is miraculously recorded for [00:55:00] us.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: That's interesting. Yeah, that's sort of my thought on all this. I'm, I'm rabidly anti mystic as a lot of people know, but I also think just reality is rabidly anti mystic. And that what happens when you go down the mystical pathway is truth becomes a subjective internal experience. And so when two people disa disagree about something because they gain their information about reality through, you know, whether it's corrupt and mental states like.

Sitting in odd poses or twirling or taking drugs they're just like, well, my subjective interpretation is right, and the other person's like, my subjective interpretation is right. And whoever gets more followers or is more popular, that's his subjective interpretation is right. And now they get to dictate what's true and what's not true, dear.

And, and this is what you keep seeing with cults and stuff like leverage, et. Anyway. Yeah. Any final thoughts, Simone?

Simone Collins: No, this was just equal parts enlightening and horrifying. But yeah, mysticism sucks The worst. Yeah, a guy get ever

Malcolm Collins: disagree with us, he's gonna be like, oh, it doesn't matter that there were all these Scientologists involved, or that the guy running it kept running into walls or [00:56:00] that it, it, there's this one or two instances in it, which seem really suspiciously hard to disprove.

Simone Collins: Mysticism, mystics got a mystic, like they're, they're gonna, they're gonna do it regardless, because they can't be reasoned with, that's, that's the problem with mysticism. Like you're, you're trying to provide a logic based argument against mysticism. When mystics don't believe in logic. Yeah. So it's not like this is gonna change anything there, but it's still interesting.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, Rudyard believes in logic. The, the problem is, is that he believes that he can get information from states other than the logical, empirical observation of reality through repeated testing. Right. You know, and, and the, the fact, and one of the reasons I warned people against this, and I made this warning before Ruby Yard went on the whole Thor thing it was like, if you try to chase down these states, if you try to engage with the mystic.

Let's suppose the mystical world does exist, even if it does exist. It only seems to scramble people's brain, [00:57:00] everyone or almost everyone. There's a couple of people I know who have been engaged with mysticism and still are able to rationally think even, even those

Simone Collins: people are like they, they have said things to us along the lines of, this is not something that the normal person can safely engage with.

Like they themselves acknowledged this is not for the vast majority that

Malcolm Collins: happened to him. I was like, this type of idea in stuff will scramble your brain if you keep doing it. And it, I, my warnings in the episode were proven right. Everyone's thought, I gloat, I don't gloat about it. You know, like he's a, a young person.

He, he, I think, reacted to the incident really professionally and well, through just sort of deleting it, moving on, you know, a kid's allowed to try a mystical, like, I don't, I, I can be here and warn somebody and say. Trying to explore the mystical realm will lead to long-term negative consequences for you or lead to short-term negative consequences for you.

But somebody can then say, yeah, but I still want that information. I [00:58:00] still want to explore that. Right? Like, maybe you are wrong. Maybe I'm the one who gets through, right? Like this is how we come up with new discoveries and everything. Yeah. You know, I shouldn't, I don't like, I wouldn't ever feel good about somebody attempting to explore the, the reaches of what we're allowed to talk about in polite society.

And this stuff is I I don't think that, that, that, that attempting that and having that backfire is something that, that we should take advantage of as a community at all. Because if people are Yeah, allow

Simone Collins: people to take risks, we won't advance if you don't. So that's, yeah, it's fine. Oh, thanks for this, Malcolm.

I love you so much. Love you too. Hmm. Twitter or ex post on the Ai ai video. And someone was like, you're wrong on this one. Unfortunately, it's a lossy compression algorithm with a novel retrieval method saying AI is smart. It's the same as saying a library is smart. And I am, [00:59:00] tell me if this is too snarky or wrong as a response, but I wrote a lossy compression algorithm with a novel retrieval method.

Oh. Like a human mind. We've had much for us. Have they?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, that's accurate. That's not too snarky at all. That is. I, I, people think the mind runs on Magic and Fairy does. Yeah. Instead of on an actual, like neural mechanism. And all of the complaints I see about AI just fundamentally misunderstand how the human brain works.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, or like any dig at the ai, like intelligence of AI is a dig at our intelligence. I just find it really funny.

Malcolm Collins: Study after study after study. Oh, it looks like the human brain works on a token predictor model. Yeah. AI is helping us so much in understanding how we learn and think and people are like, wow, that's a coincidence that when we applied the AI models to the human mind and we, they ended up matching exactly where, like we show surprise tokens and stuff like that.

Oh well.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But how, how were [01:00:00] the comments generally where people like, because I know people get annoyed at our pro AI stuff.

Simone Collins: I, I haven't gotten to them yet, so I was seeing if I, I could outline an out an episode on this thing that really bothers me. On social media, the inspirational quotes thing, like the brain rot, inspirational quotes.

Yeah. Like why

Malcolm Collins: are people doing that? That's a big bizarre. Yeah. But also,

Simone Collins: like, I'm looking at the history of it. I mean, because obviously people have used inspirational quotes for a long time. I mean, it used to be Confucius and it used to be like lines from the Bible. Yeah. And then it was, you know, it was, it was Ford, it was Coco Chanel.

And, and, and I'm. It's very clear that originally they were, they were dispersed as a form of, of creating cultural conformity and, and inseminating people with values that were seen as beneficial to society. Now I feel like they've evolved into something very different, very like. Memetically virus. I'm finding these Facebook pages and so I fell down this rabbit hole.

Meanwhile playing in the side, I fell down this separate rabbit hole with return to land that like white [01:01:00] nationalist ish. Yeah. Settlement. 'Cause I, I found their YouTube channels and I was like, I wanna watch their videos and see what they have to say. And what's so funny is like, one, they're super explicit.

This is, this is for white people. Like, they're like, we just, we wanna do this for white people, but like.

They come across as both so sad and so earnest. Mm-hmm. That I, I can't feel anything but bad for them. Like, they, like, they're, they're showing, you know, like the, the settlements that people are starting to build on this development that they're building in the Ozarks in Arkansas. And you know, like there's one guy who's just living in a tent.

He is like, all I've got here is my tent and my Pullup bar and like literally it's like a branch that he like nailed between two trees so he could do pullups 'cause he's very masculine. And. Like, these are tough lives, and I'm just like, leave the white nationalists alone. Like they're, they're not living your aspirational life.

Like really, like stay in your city. Live with the [01:02:00] urban model. Like you are happy there. You, you want them to go away, let them live in their ghetto, like. Leave them alone. These are, and they're just, they're just so earnest, like there's not an ounce of malice as far as I can detect, and I am a little autistic, but as, as far as I can detect, there's not an ounce of malice toward any other race.

It is simply this like sad wistful desire to return to some form of like. Western civilizational greatness that isn't really real, but they believe to be real. Kind of like Santa Claus. Mm-hmm. It's kind of like a bunch of people building a settlement in the North Pole being like, it's like build it and they will talk Santa and the elves used to be here.

Yeah. We're just gonna have to do what it takes. Santa's not gonna come back unless we show that we believe in him, and I'm just like, okay, go ahead. Stay warm guys. Like maybe I'll go on your Amazon wishlist and buy a jacket because. I just hope you're okay. Like, I feel bad. So I fell down those rabbit holes and so I don't, I know I'm gonna look at [01:03:00] comments later, but I'm, I'm excited to see how it does.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because I, I, I, I suspect a lot of people are gonna be very mad that we're like, Nope, AI is not a bubble in the traditional setting.

Simone Collins: Hey, we'll see guys. Well, you just love telling us how wrong we are.

Malcolm Collins: No, but hold on. We do, we do say it's an investment bubble, but it's not a bubble in terms of its use.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. We're not, we're not saying buy AI stocks and you can't even really, like all the ones that are good to buy are like private investments. Like the, the best you can do to invest in this space is literally to build a career. Around it and to, to start a startup that rides this wave. But

Malcolm Collins: anyway.

Speaker 21: Oh.[01:04:00]

Oh no. Brutal attack. Brutal attack. I got a double tickle attack right here. Double tickle.

Uh oh. Oh, you're the, what's gonna happen?

In this episode, Simone and the host delve into a controversial discussion on the impact of women and feminist movements on society. The conversation heavily references a piece by Arctotherium titled 'Progress Studies and Feminization', which argues that the rise of women in politics, the labor force, and academia has led to a decline in societal progress and optimism. The host presents various graphs and statistics to support this narrative, highlighting trends in energy consumption, publication rates, and language use from the 1960s onwards. They discuss the role of rationality, reason, and scientific progress, contrasting the forward-looking optimism of past decades with contemporary societal anxieties. The episode also touches on the gendered differences in attitudes towards technology, housing, and environmental issues, suggesting that the increasing influence of women in cultural and political spheres has had a conservative effect on societal progress.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. Today we are going to be discussing how women destroyed society. And because of

Simone Collins: course they did.

Malcolm Collins: Of course they did. No, actually, so people, they go on our podcast and they might think we're gonna do one of our sort of bait and switch things here, or I'm like, well, women caused some problems, you know?

No. And, and especially, no, you're like, but

Simone Collins: actually no, seriously my

Malcolm Collins: words, I'm gonna be going over somebody else's piece. So no one attribute this to me. I'm not saying, I'm just saying it's worth talking about this piece. You're just asking a questions lot of, and statistics. Shows how society began to fall apart with the rise of the feminist movement and women participating in politics in the labor force.

Mm. And usually I'm not like particularly compelled by these sorts of cases if people know me. Mm. In this instance, I found it. But what's interesting is the entire piece, if you didn't like Wade through the first part, which I'm not gonna share with you guys 'cause it's boring. Thanks. [00:01:00] You and, and the title, you wouldn't know that that's what the piece is.

The piece is progress Studies and feminization. Okay. And, and then the subtitle is, you Can't Undo just one part of the 1960s, and it's by our favorite, one of our favorite writers for this show is Arc Ethereum. Oh, he's fun.

Simone Collins: Oh, and he also, yeah, no, he's definitely, it's Women's Fault. So, okay.

Yeah. Okay. Ardo fine. Let's hear your Ethereum.

Malcolm Collins: No. Yeah, and, and the broader thing is, and I, and, and I'll note here, I'm not saying all women are a danger to society. I'm just saying non-autistic women are a danger to society. Thanks, Malcolm. Like, women, like my wife are fine. You're, you're a sweetheart.

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, just, just to do basic female functions, I have to take the same amount of hormones as a trans woman, so. Can we really call me female,

Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah. So here I'm gonna pop on screen a graph that was in this first rambling bit he did which is the Henry Adams curve of energy consumption.

And it's supposed to go up [00:02:00] logarithmically, but actually what we can see here is around the 1960s it stopped, and if anything started declining while before, perfectly fitting to the curve. Then if we go down to this next study here we can look at total pages published in the federal Register, thousands of pages per year.

We can also see a logarithmic curve going up until we hit around 1975, and then it basically stops. Okay. Now to go into the piece where it starts getting interesting. We live in a age that has lost its optimism. Polls show that people think the world is getting worse and not better. Children fear dying from environmental catastrophe before they reach old age.

Technologists are as likely to be told that they are ruining society as they are bettering it. Da da da. And then he is right. This change is quantifiable books written in English, French and German. The Fri three major languages of the modern West showed a continuous rise in the number of terms relating to progress [00:03:00] and the future from around 1600 to 1970 when things suddenly took a turn for the worse.

And here I will put on a screen, a graph here, and what you can see here is. Going into the 19 hundreds basically until you get to around the 1970s. Two things happened in the English language. People stop using terms that stand for progress or the future, like moving forwards. Oh, and they start using more words that are associated with caution, worry, and risk.

Oh. So society basically became worried about the future getting better. And if you go, and we talked about this in our episode nationalism saves. Countries, and it's not just nationalism, it's retro futuristic nationalism where if you go to the 1950s sci-fi, it's just very forward looking. Very excited about the future.

You know, it's all, you know, rocket ships and exploration and, and utopian colonies. When that stuff is incredibly rare in modern sci-fi, you see very, very little utopian sci-fi anymore. And even. Sci-fi that used to have, I, I think Star Trek's a bit of a [00:04:00] dystopia, but it's at least written as a Di Utopia Watch.

Our Star Trek episode, one of my favorites. But the utopian nature has left Modern Star Trek where it's written much more dystopian. Now, if you look at something like, you know, lower decks or you look at the new like Picard show and stuff like that. And the larger piece, just so you know, that he is, he sort of views feminism as an antagonist to what he refers to as progress studies or like research into progress.

Now I actually think this framing is stupid when what he's actually talking about is human progress more broadly. But if you're wondering what progress studies is that's like what Tyler Cohen, like Mercer does, that sort of stuff.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Right.

Malcolm Collins: Or I guess aporia more broadly does that, which is where this piece was written.

One of the biggest drivers. One works

Simone Collins: in progress too, right? Based outta the uk.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, so then back to this piece, one of the biggest drivers of progress is rationality. Progress depends on the belief that the world is rational to begin with and can be understood, and therefore intentionally [00:05:00] changed for the better.

I would agree with that. Anton Howes, the historian behind the age of invention, calls this the quote unquote improvers mentality and observe that it is historically rare, only arising in a handful of cultures. This is not an intuitive belief. Exclamation mark. Muslim scholar Al Gali famously argued that as everything occurs the way Allah wills it, rather than according to predictable laws, science was impossible.

The idea of. Progress that sustained improvement is most possible and desirable is a fleeting one. And here, I'll note here, we've talked about when Islam began to fail and became sort of a religion of the dark ages, because there was a period when it was one of the greatest religions of progress out there.

So much so that when Western writers would write scientific works, they would often write under Arab pen names because people wouldn't take them seriously. So that's, that is how far ahead of us they were in the sciences. Right. And Al Gza comes along and basically everything begins to fall apart.

He's like, we need to become [00:06:00] mystical. We need to stop this, this progress

Simone Collins: stuff. Oh, no. Basically, oh, no.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Yeah. Not great. And I don't think it's, it's great for a lot of modern Jewish stuff because we are seeing this in modern Jewish religious traditions with the Habad movement, for example, moving them more towards mysticism and normalizing mysticism, which I see as sort of a Jewish version of Alga. Sufi mystics.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Even more importantly, reason allows people to stand on the shoulders of giants. Scientific. And, and I'll note here what mysticism, the reason why mysticism doesn't allow that is because mysticism says that the subjective experiences you, you have whether it's from corrupt in middle states like drugs or spinning, or just your own intuition, take precedence over subjective rationality that can be tested in sort of the court of, of the real world, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: which means you can't stand on giant shoulders anymore because now you're just speculating on somebody else's speculation, which never had anybody really confirm its authenticity except for whoever was a popular idea [00:07:00] person at the time. Scientific and technological progress are driven by exceptional individuals, but reason makes it possible to reliably build on the past or to debunk them when they're wrong, which allows the collective brain to improve over time rather than running in circles.

With that in mind, the English purpose shows a steady rise in reason related words, a corresponding fall in intuition related words from 1850 to 1975. In here he shows a chart where you can see principle component words, sentiment intention related words, and rationality related words in four major language groups.

Here you've got English all you've got Spanish, you've got English fiction, and you've got English. Excel fiction. I don't know what that stands for. But you can see this is a very strong trend where you have a graph that's just going down, down, down, down, down, down, down, down, down, hits the 1950s shoot, right up to right now we are at a lower use.

Of many of these words, like [00:08:00] let's say if you're looking at like the, how high intuition related words are used today. Mm-hmm. They are finally today used more or around as much as they were in the 1850s.

Simone Collins: Oh dear.

Malcolm Collins: In English and in Spanish. They're used more in English fiction, more Yikes. Right. That is horrifying.

If, if you look at sentiment like sentimentality related words you have it go down, down, down, down, down, down, down till you, you have the cold rationalist Victorians now shooting right up to like double the rate they were ever used in the 1850s. So this is definitely a real thing that he's note here.

And he said you can see the same trend in Congress. He shows here EMI ratings for Democrats and Republicans. Yeah. And you can see they, they were holding steady or sorry, it was going up. From 1880 to around the 1970s, and then it begins to crash.

And now it's at way lower rates than it was in 1880s. So, the big political sex difference [00:09:00] progress and, and this was really interesting ' cause I didn't know this, and we're gonna go into another piece here before I get into this, but I wanna hear your thoughts so far. I, I, I sort of feel this, this argument flushed out.

I mean. Society has sort of felt like scientifically we've been declining since the 1970s.

Simone Collins: Well, and, and that sentiment and optics and emotion have taken the place of reason and facts and science. So I don't disagree with this. I want to see a more stronger argument for connection between feminine influences.

Well, we haven't gotten to that yet,

Malcolm Collins: but I can argue for an alternate theory of what might be causing this. Yeah. It could be the establishment of the institutional academic bureaucracy because that didn't really happen until the 1970s. And, and, and a lot of people don't realize when they're like.

Trusts the science that the system we use to determine what science is true and what isn't. Like a a, a peer reviewed with like a score attached to it based on how many people have cited you. This system didn't really develop until the [00:10:00] 1970s before that science was something. Entirely different. And so when people say trust the science, they don't understand.

They're saying trust an entirely new system. That doesn't seem to work very well and that hasn't really been tested. And that in the way that we're seeing it tested in the court of public opinion is not doing well. If you look at the rate of scientific progress. Okay. The rate of funding going into scientific progress you see it's basically flatlined since the 1970s when you account for the amount of funding.

It

Simone Collins: seems so counterintuitive that although a rise of academia would see a drop in. Facts and arise in sentimentality though. That's so odd.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Alright, so anyway, he says here I've been thinking about this progress in the sense of progress studies lately as I'm wrapping up the fellowship and leading into the conference.

A common lament is that the progress community is very masculine, both in the sense that women are underrepresented among enthusiasts of markets and technology, and perhaps also in the sense that there may be something inherently quote unquote masculine in the gung-ho, [00:11:00] relentless, aggressive vibe of progress as a concept in itself.

And this is by Sarah Co Constantine who said this. So a woman said this, A woman said that progress is a masculine. But what I found really compelling, and I didn't know this. Is despite the widening gap in political identification, which we all know about sex differences on specific political issues are typically small.

But there is, and I, and I'm gonna put a graph on screen here because I didn't know this, and what this graph shows is just all of the various, you know, abolition, private health insurance against limited government magazines, you know, like just tons and tons and tons of different positions here.

And what you'll notice is that the male and female position is really not that far apart on most issues. Um hmm. But then he notes here was one enormous area where that is true support for technological progress, economic dynamism, and human abundance. This is the one area where women actually have a massive difference in terms of their preferences.

Why? Why? [00:12:00] Why? Well, you actually see that, okay. Think about it this way. If you go around and you ask people are, should nuclear reactors be shut down? Like, are nuclear reactors a danger? Women are gonna be hugely, disproportionately more likely to say they should be shut down. And you actually see this in the studies.

We'll get to this in a bit. Or you ask about GMO foods. Human women are wildly more likely to say GMO foods should be shut down. Mm-hmm. I would. AI technology, and this is why the conservatives have weirdly become the pro AI party and the progressives, the anti AI party because the progressives are, and I, and I note to our followers here, what this means is if you are the type of conservative who goes out there and is like, Hey, we need to like shut down.

Research. We need to not, you know, continue with all this scientific development. You fundamentally have a feminized mind. You're thinking like a woman, the conservative who comes out there and is like, well, we just need to stop all of this, this, this moving forwards. We need to go back to the way things were.

You are thinking like a woman. There we.

Simone Collins: There you [00:13:00] go.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I actually, now I'm gonna skip and go to the piece that he linked to where this graph came from that showed that women and men actually aren't that different in their political beliefs, because I thought it had some interesting ideas in it.

Speaker 4: Okay. So

Malcolm Collins: it says, I'm gonna put an image on screen here if the longhouse values. Feelings of a warmth and its safety among all elses. The longhouse is like this female cabal sort of idea. It's the, the male version of the patriarchy that, that some men come up with and don't want to admit that they're just blaming everything on the matriarchy reveling into learned helplessness, which the.

Longhouse does do I would argue like the whiter female vibe. The goon cave lacks decorum is unnecessarily cruel and generally repulses, most respectable people. And he has an image representing the two, and I'm like, yeah, that checks out for me. For example, your symbol of progress in the second half of the 20th century was space exploration.

For as far back as there is data, men have been much more likely to support increasing government funding for space exploration. Mm-hmm. Crucially around twice as much. I wanna put a graph on screen here, which shows this. [00:14:00] Oh, and increasing divide was Women Now more and more against space exploration.

Simone Collins: Well then women can't complain about not being astronauts at the same level. You gotta pitch in.

Malcolm Collins: There's women astronauts. There's those women who paid men to make them astronauts. They could be adored. They don't catch. Perhaps the single biggest political issue taken up by those under the banner of progress studies is housing political barriers to local construction.

Nimbyism, especially in highly desirable metropolitan areas, are blamed for low supply and thus extremely high housing prices. Which are in turn blamed for slow growth, climate change, poor health, financial instability, economic instability, and falling fertility. In Britain, which was one of the worst housing crisis in the developed world, men support building more houses in their local area by 17 points, while women oppose it by three points.

Speaker 3: That's a divide. Wow. Okay. So what are your thoughts so far? Before we go further here? I don't understand women. This is,

Malcolm Collins: if I say, no, autistic women know [00:15:00] your limits.

Speaker: See how the men look at her with utter contempt.

Women, know your limits.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. We need to, the greater replacement, the uti need to replace everyone else. We need to, we're working on it, man. Watch this. You need to get out there and get pregnant and make it your new special interest.

Okay. Because, because I don't want my kids out there dating some normy woman, all right. That's gonna be very dangerous. They're gonna have to deal with emotions and sense of mentality and anti-progress. It's very difficult. We need, we need to wash this outta the gene pool, whatever is leading women to, to feel this way.

So to continue here, nuclear power, which combines significant greenhouse gas emissions. Which, which is great. Very good at removing air pollution. Yeah. With the reliability of fossil fuels also true. It's, it's very reliable is another technology. The progress movement strongly backs as a supplement to solar.

There is a. 30 point sex gap in the support of increasing nuclear power generation in the US and being male is [00:16:00] one of the strongest predictors of support of nuclear in Denmark. And I'm, I'm putting a graph on screen here that shows this. As you would expect from their Lia, progress studies is broadly in favor of transgenic crops, GMOs, such as golden rice or Roundup resistant corn, giving their potential to contribute to rapid 20th century progress in agriculture.

GMOs don't get as much attention as they used to, but women are 16 points more likely to believe that they are worse for health than men. And I have another graph on screen here showing this. What do you, what do you think? I wonder

Simone Collins: like maybe it's not that these are inherent female views or intuitions, but rather that a pervasive culture that has permeated female spaces argues these things.

And if, for example, we just replaced, like if we bait and switched the cultures out, they would just,

Malcolm Collins: That was my hypothesis. But what he is gonna go into later in this piece is that the sentiment against technology is one of the few. Gender gap? [00:17:00] Things that hasn't changed in men and women over time?

Oh, it's just kind of universal. For example, women used to be like more anti-abortion than men. They used to be more religious than men. They used to be more conservative in a lot of areas than men. They were always anti-progress. And so that, you know

Simone Collins: who wrote Frankenstein, but a woman yeah, that's.

Malcolm Collins: So, so the is the men who are anti-progress today, who are anti, not progressives, but I mean like just being

Simone Collins: feminine. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Human flourishing. Right. The technophobic men

Simone Collins: are just moving into the longhouse.

Malcolm Collins: Whatever you are, to a woman, they are to a man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In their brain and made them like an atri hundreds woman, you know, they're, they're more conservative and more against abortion, but also terrified of technology.

Now, of course, they wouldn't say I'm terrified of technology. They'd just be like, well, technology, GMOs, editing human genomes, et cetera, that's all dangerous and scary and new. And it's like, well be a man, like barrel through, like that's what we always do. Right? You know, you, you get the Victorian like, yeah man, use

Simone Collins: tool, tool fix [00:18:00] thing.

Hello?

Malcolm Collins: I have cancer. Baby. Have cancer fix cancer. Fix means fix

Speaker 3: cancer. Yes, baby. Not smart. New tool, fixed thing, baby. Frail.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway progress studies is prenatal list. I love he throws that in there. You know, I get the prenatal list thing, right? Thank you. Or Ethereum. On the grounds that the purpose of progress is to benefit people.

There need to be people to benefit, and that more people means more agglomeration effects, more economies of scale, longer learning curves, more opportunities for specialization, more competition, and more potential innovators. Once again, women are more likely to believe too many children are being born than men.

26 to 19. In terms of points difference and are less likely to believe not enough children are being born. 14 to 30. Huh. So again this is something that we see here, right? Like we, we ISTs in the prenatal space, women are just much more resistant to wanting to save humanity. They sort of want like this to be the final generation society to ground to a halt.

And of course, I'm putting [00:19:00] a graph on screen here so you can see this. And this is where he notes, unlike sex differences on issues like abortion or religious attendance, these gaps go back as far as can be measured. Relevant sex differences in personality. This is a, a different piece here.

All that is solid melts into air. All that is holy is profane. Technological and scientific progress is intrinsically dangerous, frightening, and destabilizing. It also has a potential cornucopia of riches. Should the risk or reward dominate the greater reproductive variance of men means that men are more likely to accept a high risk, high reward course of action.

Mm-hmm. One way of looking at this, the most reproductively successful man of the second millennium was Genghis Khan, the most reproductively successful woman. Was his mother naively, we would expect men to be more willing to risk failure for an uncertain future payoff. And this is exactly what we see. So basically he's saying women are risk averse and the female mine is risk averse, which is why they are progress in technology.

Averse thoughts before I go further?

Simone Collins: Oh [00:20:00] yeah. Okay. That's, yeah, I mean, millions of years of evolution based on the limits of your biology and the, the risks to which you were subject.

Malcolm Collins: So per John Archer's 2019 meta-analysis of human psychological sex differences, some of the relevant personality differences for progress orientation.

So this is view of like wanting future to be better agreeableness, 0.29. Engineering interest, 1.11. Mechanical reasoning. I'm not gonna give you the numbers because you don't care. Risk taking and harm avoidance. But there is a reason to believe that personality differences are even bigger because personality is typically assessed via questionnaire.

This brings with it the obvious problems, such as people responding with different reference groups in mind, as well as social desirability bias, which can deflate results. For example, when assessed via questionnaire. The fearfulness gap between men and women is D 0.41, which is noticeable, but not huge.

But when assessed in the real world, the gap is much larger. 1.16 to [00:21:00] 0.49. Self-assessed difference in risk-taking might not seem that large, but consider that the blank. Slightest argue that young women's social anxiety over cooking a bad meal is equivalent. Risk taking to young men jumping off of cliffs for fun.

The reference frame for what constitutes a risk is not the same for men and women. That is why if you're looking for people who are both interested and able in engineering, disagreeable enough to break consensus and willing to take risk for uncertain payoffs, you will overwhelmingly find men as a result.

Technology slash market slash future and ideas oriented groups tend to be around 90% male. And here I'm gonna put some graphs on screen here. And the first poll is points allocated to five academic priorities by gender among undergraduate and graduate PhD students. Mm-hmm. And here you can see that women are less interested in academic freedom.

They are less interested in advancing knowledge. They are less interested in academic rigor, they are more interested in social justice, and they are more interested in [00:22:00] emotional wellbeing. Here you can see points allocated to all five academic priorities by gender among faculty. Women are less interested in academic freedom.

They are less interested in advancing knowledge. They're less interested in academic rigor. They are less, they are more interested in social justice and they are more interested in emotional wellbeing. Now, the atory part here, you getting, you're getting concerned, Simone, that oh.

Simone Collins: I mean, there's a time and a place for those things, right? Like it's good to balance, but. I don't know, man knows not the time.

Malcolm Collins: And I know here this isn't for the women who watch our show, you're basically a different gender. 'cause you're all a bunch of little autistics. You're, you're artisanal women which is very different from the, the category of creature I am talking about.

You have met these creatures. They are terrifying. I, I was, I was, I was talking with Simone recently, like her inability to understand like normy women, and I'm just like, I'm so glad you don't get it. 'cause

Simone Collins: Well also, like I'm getting the impression that most of my high school friends were probably on the spectrum.[00:23:00]

Malcolm Collins: Well, you have a lot of Asian, we're just

Simone Collins: culturally very different. Yeah. Like a Asian first generation. It may just be a cultural thing. Like I just joke, I can't model this because I didn't encounter it. It's so hard for me to understand this, but that, that's why I feel like the cultural argument remains.

I don't know. I don't, I can't model, I can't imagine. My friends from high school, for example, my first generation agent, immigrant friends, I. Being like, oh, GMO foods, that's scary. Like, they wouldn't, they wouldn't do that, you know, they wouldn't be afraid of ai. They, they, they adopt it fast, right? Like they were, they were the ones who told me how to use New Tech.

So, so

Malcolm Collins: yeah. I remember. Is this cultural

Simone Collins: maybe? I mean, I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: I I, my, my new joke about Asians, by the way, is that our, our great-grandchildren are gonna see Asians, the way people in the anime fryan see elves, where it's like elves in Fryan. If you don't know, they are [00:24:00] like, they don't, they're not really, don't get strong arousal.

And they don't they're not really interested in relationships or romance. So they just breed at incredibly low rates. And if you look at our video on is low Asian fertility, genetic, which is really interesting. We go into the data on this. It may just be that they feel like arousal and romantic feelings at a much lower rate because of high rates of arranged marriages in their cultures.

Okay. And so, they, our kids will be like, oh my gosh, you cute little have you, have you ever do, do you really not feel arousal at all? Are you not desired to go out and mate with people? Oh my God. But anyway, female cultural dominance. If women are psychologically more predisposed to small C conservatism than men and hence opposed to progress, we might expect female cultural dominance to lead to the pattern seen in the text.

Corpuses above does the timing work? Yes. Since 1970, women have gone from represent from present, but marginal and prestige cultural institutions to approximate parody was men First Women authored books [00:25:00] crept upwards. As a share of total books between 1800 and 1970s before rocketing upwards and are now the majority.

The publishing industry is itself, 74% female, and here all putting graph on the screen of female authored books where you can see it just explodes after the 1970s.

Speaker 4: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Second. Academia is intended to be the brain trust of society. An association of professionals paid to discover the truth. In 2022, women became the majority of college faculty in the United States.

And you can see if you go back to the 1970s, they just were not present in very big numbers. Dead. It doesn't exist for the key year of 1970s, but we can plot the ratio instead. And we get the following chart where you can see women just explode as a proportion starting around the 1970s. This closely matches the picture of college graduation rates.

Note that the X axis is the cohort birth year in the chart below. So here, this is college graduation rates and you just see exploding female college graduation rates. But this actually stuck and that

Simone Collins: gap is widening apparently. I thought it would slow down eventually. It's just getting worse.

Malcolm Collins: Oh no, it's getting worse. [00:26:00] Yeah. Now you see men start to go into college less and less now. Yeah. So it's not just And more trade

Simone Collins: school, I mean, which is great. I mean, they're ultimately I think more and more having a college degree is a liability. So people are better off just

Malcolm Collins: Yep. And now we can look at number of women in Congress.

You can see it was very low before the really 1980s. And then it just explodes the same as the number of women in the house. So in politics, women started getting involved,

Simone Collins: huh? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So thoughts.

Simone Collins: This is all. He's painting a worrying picture. I feel like it's an incomplete picture, but I can't give a very strong argument as to why, aside from I think culture is playing a role, despite the fact that I will admit that there are evolutionary reasons why women need to be more conservative and have evolved to be.

Gender amorphously more conservative. Right? Like that makes sense. And it would be crazy if women were [00:27:00] like the gender known for risk taking

Malcolm Collins: because, well, this is really interesting about women. So when we talk about, you know, small c conservatives, traditionalist conservatives having feminized minds I think that, the, the, this is really messing with some small C conservative males because they get very confused when you actually look at what the two parties are attempting to do. Right now. The party that's like taking big risks and is really interested in long-term human flourishing is the. Republican party at the moment.

You know, you look at dos, you look at their engagement with like science and everything like that. And, and they're just way more interested in that. And the progressive party is become the party, as we often say of the urban monoculture. But because the urban monoculture is the dominant culture right now, if you, your core goal is society not changing, which is the core goal of the urban monoculture that currently has dominance.

You are gonna fight for small C conservative causes, right? You're gonna fight for things not to change, to maintain your existing power hierarchy. And so a lot of [00:28:00] people who are small c conservatives often take positions which are fundamentally very left-leaning, was in the current. Political ecosystem without understanding that's what they're doing because they think Big C conservatism or like the right is a small C conservative movement, which is just not, it is an almost anti traditionalist movement insofar as it.

Will aggressively take ideas from various points in human history but it's building something new with those ideas. Even, even the traditional religious organizations that are surviving and thriving are doing it through new cultural technologies. I mean, people think of Mormons as like. C culturally conservative, but they're really not like the entire way that Mormons date here.

Now, these days with the the singles ward, this was like invented in the 1970s. If, if you look at like Catholics, like the trad cast communities that are actually surviving are not actually structured [00:29:00] the way Catholic communities were in like the 1950s. It is a, a new way of being Catholic that takes.

Aesthetic inspiration from periods long before the 1950s in, in the way that they're structured. It, it, it's a fundamentally new thing that's built using fundamentally new technology. Mm-hmm. And this is why the small c conservatives, it's not just focused on, we need autonomy to run our own community and do our own thing.

They'll end up. As recently saying, if you actually look at our positions on one of our podcasts and I don't mean this in any way as, as negative about him but at what's his guy? Lotus Eaters?

Sargon of kod that we, not, not his words or not his public reputation, but his actual positions outside of abortion.

We are to the right of him slightly on most issues, and yet the public framing of him is that he's. Like this far right extremist when he's like a pro gay marriage atheist. Apparently he goes to church now. But, [00:30:00] and one person was like, well, you know, another area where he's to the right of you is he's for banning pornography.

And I'm like, that is the most left wing position you could, it's super left wing. Yeah. If, if, if within the modern political context banning pornography is hand in hand was banning VPNs it. Of expanding the reach of a government nanny state, and allying yourself with fat feminist to increase their market value because you lack self-control and you want to help save people who do not have your belief system and lack self-control.

And people

Simone Collins: also said that, that he's to the right of us on immigration. I don't know where he stands on it.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, what, what is our broad immigration stance? Our stance

Simone Collins: on immigration is very simple. You can have one thing, open borders. And no social services or social services and extremely closed borders, that that is our stance on immigration.

Malcolm Collins: They shouldn't get in the first generation any social services at [00:31:00] all. And that immigration should be based on the, the contribution to the economy. Which means that you know, you should be looking at like, how much is this person earning in their home country? How, how smart are they et cetera, which is.

Donald Trump's position. This is what he laid out in what, what podcast was that? It's, it's not the position that he's actually ended up taking his policy because he's, he's been pushed back, well, on the All

Simone Collins: In podcast, he was in favor of, of giving visas to people with degrees. But then that, that everyone pointed out after that, that like, well they did that in Canada and it really, really backfired.

So yeah, it makes sense why he didn't do that. But, I don't, I, I mean that is a very conditional stance on immigration

Malcolm Collins: condition was to the left of us, which was give degree, give admission to anyone who goes to a US university, which I'm like, that could be too hacked.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and it has been hacked egregiously in Canada at the very least.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Where I'm like, let them pay maybe $10 million [00:32:00] per citizenship. You know, something like that. Right. Like, at the very least, you're not gonna get a drain on the economy if somebody's paying $10 million per citizenship. Well,

Simone Collins: but he did, he he released that Golden Visa program. Oh, great, great.

Which I think is less than 10 million. Cost of Golden Visa. US SA, the EB five Immigrant Investor Program only, only. 1 million, 50,000. It's

Speaker 3: nothing.

Malcolm Collins: So the the, the the, the reason I was saying this is, is because as the conservative party has begun, the big C Conservative Party, the, the right, the new right, I guess is a better way to put it, has become less small c conservative.

A lot of people have sort of lost their home and gotten confused and ended up in their confusion. Attacking their own side. The reason why something like a porn ban is such a terrible idea outside of the rise in child grapes, that, that it causes, go to our episode where we, we discuss this, it's like really big in the data.

In one country when they dropped it, I wanna say it was [00:33:00] Romania, the rate dropped of SA on children dropped by like around 50%. It was huge. And we've seen this everywhere that has been legalized. You see this in Hong Kong, like functionally, you are condemning children to this fate.

Simone Collins: Let them eat porn.

Okay? People.

Malcolm Collins: You are giving the government, which is really bad, you are giving the government the right to define what is porn slash vulgar, the ability to make VPNs illegal because you fundamentally need to make this illegal to make. Porn illegal. Yeah. And then they'll define your ideas as vulgar.

Eventually they'll define your, this is what we're seeing in the uk. Like a lot of the negative stuff that we're seeing now in the UK uses porn restrictions as justification for implementing the, the restrictions on free speech.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: The moment you go, we wanna restrict this. You have handed bureaucrats the ability to define vulgarity which is why it's so dangerous to do.

And, and you haven't even really helped our side. You're only helping people who don't agree [00:34:00] with these parts of our beliefs. And this doesn't

Simone Collins: mean like if you, from a religious standpoint, don't believe in. Masturbation of porn consumption, like by all means abstain, but don't legislate that on other people.

Yeah. I mean, on

Malcolm Collins: this topic, the thing I point out is, you know, countries that have had porn illegal in them for like the past couple decades are countries like Korea countries where porn is not illegal, which has a terrible fertility rate for its income level. Where it's legal or countries like Israel, which has a great fertility rate, or the United States, which has a great fertility rate.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: I mean, yeah, the results, the proof is in the pudding, but also like, I think from a religious standpoint, you, you need to have people make the decision on their own and, and build the discipline on their own. You don't get the benefits from a cultural standpoint by forcing it on people and removing their ability to make that a willful choice, to not engage in that activity.

You have like, you don't get the reps, you don't get the lift. If these people aren't choosing of their own [00:35:00] volition to not engage in this activity.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Just the point here being is if you go to Korea, right? How many Korean men, like what percentage of the population do you think actively believe that they shouldn't be consuming porn?

And then would, would, if it was legal, would make the choice to very small? I'm gonna guess like three or 4%. Yeah. You go to Israel and you say like, do conservative Orthodox Jews, do they have bans against pornography within their culture? Absolutely. They do. Right. You know, you go, yeah. Like in the us

Simone Collins: no, FAP is a big movement.

Like by all means, like don't, yeah. And go to the

Malcolm Collins: Christian communities that have these great fertility rates. They have restrictions on pornography right. Within the US because that's why we're higher fertility than a lot of the other countries. But that, but that is in part, maintained by the fact that we are forced to make these choices that affirm our identity regularly.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You know, and I, I was, I was talking about this in regards to put together this memo for the Mormon church on how they can attempt to increase their fertility [00:36:00] rates. And anyone here who's like a Mormon and you're like, oh, I'd like to get that and, and give it to like my elders or whatever, to, to consider, now, one of the things I point out is, you know when, when you're putting on your garments that differ you every day. This is what people outside of the Warren Church Club, the magic underwear we, you, you are affirming that you are different from other people. Mm-hmm. And that different, you're leaning in.

Yeah. Yeah. Are, are expected for you. You are othering yourself to yourself and you're making the conscious choice to be different. When you remove that, if we made garments a legal mandate was in a state, you have now lost all of the benefits that garments provide. Mm-hmm. So I think that this is, you mean should some, should a, some state do that?

If a state were to do that, should some state do that, right? No. Said that, but I think that, that, that if a state were to do that, it would be drawn by a very feminine impulse. This impulse of, you know, well we need to, the, the sort of pearl clutching, like we need to control people impulse, right? Like mm-hmm.

It's not my responsibility to do these things. It's the [00:37:00] state responsibility in the same way that it's, you know, a feminine impulse that drives. Things like welfare and stuff like this, right? Like people shouldn't be expected to learn to control themselves in regards to you know, making an income, right?

So it's the state's responsibility, right? And it's a, it's a feminine impulse that drives you know, when you see the smallest sea conservative people do this, like we will, we will restrict. Drugs, right? Instead of expect people to learn. Now with drugs, there's externalities 'cause it's actually addictive.

And I think that it's worse talking about drug restrictions. But I think that if you're, if you're doing this from a well, we just. Force people to act in the way that we want to, right. In a way that maintains the existing status quo. The, these impulses have been increasingly normalized because of the rise of women within our societies.

And this has been fascinating for me, this, this cultural shift that we've seen with the new. Right. And, and what sort of defines modern conservatism within sort of youth [00:38:00] culture?

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Which is very interesting.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I, I mean, we see this, if you look at like the broad. Youth culture you see today?

Like if you go back to the porn thing, I think it's an interesting place here. If you look at the major online battles, you know, whether it's tracer butt or gamer Gate, or like Skull Girls or Ebony, whatever, it, it is always the, the, the conservative affection that is anti-censorship and the anti-conservative affection mostly made up of feminists that is pro more censorship.

And and why shouldn't they be? I mean, if so much of politics is actually about mate guarding and increasing their value is in sexual marketplaces that's, that's what you really see happening here is a fight. By many women to increase their value on sexual marketplaces and where they can sort of, Shanghai individual conservative players, they will.

But well

Simone Collins: just generally on the subject, one place where I feel kind of frustrated is like, if this is all women's fault, I mean really. Or did men fall [00:39:00] asleep at the wheel and women take it, right? Like.

Malcolm Collins: I don't think it's women's fault, but I will say that I think that the urban monoculture uniquely spreads fast within women.

And so I think that what we're seeing here, I mean if you listen to a lot of our talk, we'd say most of Societals Hill ills are downstream of the urban monoculture.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And a lot of the ills that are coming from women having disproportionate positions of power and the expansion of the bureaucratic apparatuses that favor the female mind because women are better at operating within large bureaucracies, has been that women are fundamentally more small c conservative, which means they're much more likely to kowtow, to dominant cultural narratives.

Mm-hmm. Around, okay, you can't do this because this is vulgar or this is wrong. You can't say this, you can't talk about this. And so women have benefited. Hugely from like the urban monoculture. One more works with the female mind, but also works to ex. Sort of transform the environment that it's in to make it more conducive [00:40:00] with the female mind so that women can better outcompete men.

It's like a symbiotic relationship. Yeah. Where it sort of terraforms the environment into being an environment where women have disproportionately more power. Yeah. And point

Simone Collins: poisons it. To those who are immune or less likely to be infected.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like, it like turns women into like this invasive species that like pump out this miasma that boast, kills off all the other species in the environment, but also you know, converts other women into miasma producers.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I do think that the one thing that I think is most absent from Arc Ethereum's discussion here is the role that culture plays and the fact that women are. Just more likely to spread culture and adhere to it because all this, like the GMO stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I, I think that tech and, and progress could be framed in ways that to that would appeal to women's risk aversion and desire for safety and [00:41:00] consist.

Tech can maintain stability in times. It, it can, it can help. No tech is intrinsically

Malcolm Collins: disruptive because the point of technology is to change the way things work. You know, if I'm a worker, yes and

Simone Collins: no. I mean, like, as we run out of oil, nuclear is a really good resource to turn to if we don't wanna have to fundamentally change the way that we live and do things.

Malcolm Collins: Right, but if, think, think, think about what nuclear actually means for the global economy if we did switch to a nuclear run global economy, right? Mm-hmm. One of the largest industries today, the global oil industry would collapse. Right. Or, yeah, but are

Simone Collins: women really wring their hands about that? And it's, it's about something.

It's about an aesthetic framing of nuclear as risky and dangerous, which

Malcolm Collins: isn't. That is the framing. It's nuclear could explode. Nuclear is different. We're all gonna get deformed if we use nuclear. Right. But

Simone Collins: that didn't necessarily need to be. Be the narrative. It just happened to be the narrative. If the narrative was instead that nuclear is the only safe way for us to keep, you know, [00:42:00] our energy production stable as oil phases out it, it could have been, it could have been something that I think women would've found quite appealing.

Nuclear is cleaner. Nuclear doesn't get people into yucky coal mines that are so dangerous and, and it's in sparkly clean factories.

Malcolm Collins: Not nonsense. I also find it interesting when you talk about nuclear and I talking to you about this today is how little Germany has accomplished recently. And, and just how effed Germany is and how much France has despite, you know, having many of the, the downsides Germany does.

Hmm. People don't have an anti-free bias. I'm, I'm very anti-free. As I've said, the, the France would be a great place if it wasn't full of French people. But the problem is that France is technologically kinda killing it. Like one of my favorite AI models is mytral. And Mytral is built by a French company.

You know, France has developed a lot of good video game studios. Germany is just like doing nothing in these sorts of spaces, and you can look at the difference in nuclear between the two countries with Germany banning all of [00:43:00] its nuclear reactors and, and, and decommissioning them. While France is one of the most nuclear countries in the world in terms of the number of nuclear reactors that they use, I think it's like the majority of their grid.

They basically solved the carbon problem in their country just by going nuclear. And. Maybe it's because the French mind is more masculine than the German mind, maybe. And they're more open. And, and this could be a you know, a bottleneck effect. A a as I've mentioned Germany and France were changed in big ways by who died during the two World Wars.

Like what were the personality traits associated with death for each of the countries?

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And, and they. Kind of were ified by that in a way that, that America was not, the soldiers ended up having a lot more kids than other people. I mean, if, if we wanna talk about that, like how many, how many kids did soldiers have?

Every single one of our male grandparents was at D-Day. Mm-hmm. And the commander at D-Day, which is interesting, it all was in a different one was

Simone Collins: no mine. Mine wasn't. He was, he [00:44:00] was flying. Planes to drop people off, behind enemy lines.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, to drop off like the paratroopers?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I remember one of mine was a commander of a a, a boat, one of the boats, and the other one was a commander of an engineering group.

All right. Anyway, to chat with you. And have a spectacular day. Simone. Did, did this change your opinion?

I, I agree with you. I don't actually think it's because women, I think that there's been, I, I think that women likely played a role in this, but I think it's women's. The, the female, greater female tendency to converge on what is the socially dominant view combined with the growth of the urban monoculture that sort of worked symbiotically to create these awful times.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I, I see this much more as feminization and much less as women did this. I think if we were to actually look at it. Men played as much of a role in all of [00:45:00] these feminizing toxic shifts in policy and academia as women did. They're equally culpable. This isn't about women. I mean women, well, and also

Malcolm Collins: males are more feminine now than they were back then.

They're more ized. Hundred percent these things.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Because I mean, you can see women in positions of power in the past who did extremely masculine things. I, I don't, I mean, and I, I'm not gonna deny that their averages that make women more conservative, but yeah. I, I think it's an interesting take.

There are things about this that I agree with, but not, not entirely.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I, but I, I, I actually think, the feminization of the male mind is a, a large part of this and the normalization of that feminization in men not realizing when they say things that are fundamentally feminine. Yeah. That they think that this is a normal thing for a man to think.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: When, you know, you go back historically to sort of the explore mindset, that's this very masculine mindset that gets demonized within, within males more and more

Simone Collins: Yeah. And the risk [00:46:00] inventions and trying new tech and all that. Yeah. Frontier. My favorite takeaway from this is, is you're pointing out just how feminine many of these these male cultural comment reactions are when they're like me, tech, bad, genetic modification back.

But the great thing

Malcolm Collins: is, is we can probably fix all this with genetic modification. And I know our family will, I mean, within a generation, once we can get the the germline gene editing stuff up and operational I would almost certainly recommend our kids that they edit. Their, their daughter's brains to be more masculine.

Because I, I think it's, it's too risky to have feminine female brained people being a large part of your Look. You're not a female brained person, Simone, you know that. Yeah. Our followers know that.

Simone Collins: Well, there are other ways you can do that even after someone's born. You don't have to genetically modify someone too.

Be more feminine. But anyway, I love you very much. Or, or we

Malcolm Collins: could just take out these specific dangerous things like fear of progress. Anyway, [00:47:00] love you. How about spectacular day? You

Simone Collins: too.

Well, tomorrow we have our Basecamp monthly member. VIP members meet up. I'm so excited for it.

Malcolm Collins: So was you were saying that they were like James Lindsay as a grifter or something in the comments? Yeah,

Simone Collins: I, I honestly, like if I had to look, I, well ask AI like what do he is all about? Because I, I mean, you and I, people were like, you're giving way too much airspace to James Lindsay.

But specifically when we, when we plat or when we talk about someone's writing, it's not because. We consider them to be important. It's because we see that that particular piece of writing or media is getting a lot of attention. Yeah. And it's setting the tone for something, for a concept. So we don't care if it was written by Nick Fuentes or like some, you know, Taylor Lorenz or whoever.

Like, it doesn't matter. What matters is if a lot of people are talking about it, if it's in the zeitgeist, if it has influence, because that means that. It, it's worth discussing.

Malcolm Collins: So [00:48:00] honestly, of course, sometimes if the ideas are interesting,

Simone Collins: there are many people though, whose work we talk about. We have no idea what they are.

We have no idea what their other work is all about. People like assume that like if we talk about. Jordan Peterson that we're familiar with all the years of his work instead of just like, I've read one of his books and we've consumed isolated, oh. And somebody's like, oh, you, you

Malcolm Collins: read X thing from Y person, that must mean that you're a racist.

'cause they said a racist thing this one time in a different work. And it's like, what are you talking about?

Simone Collins: Yeah. We, we are not, we don't sit around reading. But yeah. So I, I just didn't expect. I didn't one, I don't, I don't, I didn't know anything about James Lindsay until I, I looked him up. The thing that made him famous was he was that person who did that really funny social experiment where he sent unhinged academic article concepts or something to journals that were like, okay.

Yeah. And they were super woke sounding. Yeah. And so he, it was actually quite fun

Malcolm Collins: when he [00:49:00] did that, when he like, yeah, that was so like when he did, that's for right wing journals as well where he took the communist manifesto and he changed it to right wing words.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's so funny. But the funny thing

Malcolm Collins: is, and I was actually gonna read that in the, the episode.

Is the article when he went, which I love. It's so different from the progressive ones. So he goes to whatever conservative journal it was who published this. Mm-hmm. And he is like, ha ha ha, I troll you. And they're like, we're not taking it down. We actually like this. Like this is pretty well written. Like, they're like, they nobody, nobody criticizes marks for being a bad writer, you know, if you change his point to our point.

Of course we're going to agree with it. It's really funny. Which is so based and so the opposite of how, you know, we've talked about how the lefties, like, they always want you to apologize and retreat and they're just like, no. When you write our thoughts in Marxist language, you don't make them not true.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: we, we liked it because we liked it, not because we disagreed. That's crazy. Well.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. I love that. I love that. I'm trying [00:50:00] to, to skirt the center here. No, but he's he's, if you actually read his stuff or, or, or watch him on Twitter, he's actually a little like, actually crazy. In terms of some of his conspiracy theories when you dig deeper on it.

Simone Collins: Oh, just untrue. Things that he believes unfounded, things that he believes,

Malcolm Collins: like thinking that like. Cults like control society and are like, if only,

Simone Collins: honestly, I think that like the scarier truth is that no one's at the wheel. People like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, no, they, there, there were these like satanic cults in like the 1930s or something and like, we should be so lucky.

I, it's, it's a, it's a. He draws a bunch of connections, which are well founded in and of themselves. But then he builds it into this conspiracy world framework, which can seem a little off the wall. And I think is, and I think when people see him as a grifter, they're sort of missing the point. I just don't think he's sort of like, he, he, he's so conspiracy brained. He's not entirely [00:51:00] all there. He's not connected to the world with a firm tether in the way that like you or I are. He's like, wherever, like Ruby Art is relationship to us. He's like a hundred times further in that direction.

Speaker 3: Wow. Oh, okay. Well,

Malcolm Collins: Like, like the, the the temperature on an AI just like turned.

All the way. I don't know if it's up or down to make it crazier. What, well, when I

Simone Collins: looked him up, I was like, well, what's his career background? And, and beat And AI told me that his original thing was opening, like a combined martial arts and massage studio. So that checks out.

Malcolm Collins: That checks out, yeah. Yeah.

Alright, I'll, I'll get started on this. Okay.

Speaker: Going.

Speaker 5: [00:52:00] Titan, where are you going?

Join us in a riveting discussion on the evolution of the concept of the 'woke right,' which has become a contentious tool for targeting individuals like us. We will analyze a viral piece that breaks down the strategic methods employed by what is referred to as the 'non-woke right.' We delve into the nuances of identity politics, the transformation of the right-wing movement, and the criticisms from traditional conservatives. This episode examines the clash between the traditional right and the modern, so-called 'woke right,' exploring the contention over cultural norms, skepticism, and the evolving political landscape.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be discussing the concept of the woke, right, and how it has evolved to be a tool to attack people like you and me. And we are also going to be discussing the play by play of a piece that has sort of gone viral on this.

That is a tool for how the the non-work Right. Can attack and destroy people like you and me.

Malcolm Collins (2): Ooh, okay.

Malcolm Collins: When the term was forced popularized by James Lindsay, I don't know if he coined it, but the, the broad vague idea is it was for sort of right wing extremist who used some tactics that reminded them of the left, like not really engaging in debates, not really engaging in the other side, critically, et cetera.

Simone Collins: Identity politics. Right.

Malcolm Collins: Identity politics. Yeah. It has dramatically evolved since then as a concept to mean the new Right. As a political movement to very explicitly attack people like you and me. And so to give you what I mean, I'll be reading a bit from the piece here. This, I obviously, I skip around to the center where it gets into the, like the meat of the topic.

Hmm. Title, the woke wright stands at the door. And so they say the MAGA right has strange and sinister qualities, which look nothing like the traditional religious wing of conservatism. Familiar from our era of William F. Buckley, or anti-government libertarian conservatism of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.

It's. Anarchic rejection of truth. It's Nietzsche esque embrace of power as self-justifying it's unashamed anti-liberal and it's glee and transgressing boundaries and giving offense are something new to the right. And I'm gonna stop there before I go into the next part because I'd actually say everything he says so far.

Exactly this channel. Yeah, not the, not the traditional religious, right? Yeah. Certainly we're not libertarian either. We have criticized libertarianism the rejection of what he calls truth. Now, keep in mind when he says truth, he'll get into what he means by that later. He means the truth that's decided on by the elites.

Oh, no, basically. And how dare they question what, what us and the, the intellectuals say um, on really. And

Speaker: to protect the world from devastation,

Speaker 2: to unite all peoples within our nation to

Speaker: denounce the evils

Speaker 2: of

Speaker: truth and

Speaker 2: love. To extend our reach to the stars above

Malcolm Collins: then we talked about the, the nietzschean embrace of power itself justifying first we're fans of niche. We've said this in other videos, not enough to pronounce his name correctly. I read his stuff and I thought it was good.

It was more like I went to his stuff while we were doing a podcast. 'cause I was like, how bad can this really be? And I'm like, oh. This all sounds fairly inoffensive and like decent advice and even that niche guy. Decent advice. Yeah. Niche. Look, I'm not gonna dirty my mouth with un-American words or, or sounds Okay.

Again, transgressing boundaries with like, with a joke like that. Right. You know, sort of playing into this, the idea of power is self-justifying. Well, I wouldn't say that the do right sees power is just self-justifying. It does see power as and we'll get into this because we're also gonna get into, in this, this video, the concept of is there such a thing as like, like should we hold to the concept of no enemies to the right?

Simone Collins: And is it a reference to the PHAs.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, it might be. But the, the point of it means it's like the right wing and the right wing generally doesn't, is it doesn't eat its own in the way the left wing does. Mm-hmm. And it's like, let's not start that in the way these people trying to coin this new, this woke.

Right. Yeah. Because otherwise you'll

Simone Collins: break the line. That's why it was to the right shield. But I'll

Malcolm Collins: say, and we'll get into this later. Okay. Yeah. Is there is actually utility and being able to call out certain types of right wing beliefs as damaging and traitorous. Yeah. And here I'll get into, I'll, I'll use sort of Nick Fuentes as an avatar for this is specifically we need to, well, we shouldn't call out an individual for having beliefs that are extremely right wing.

I, I think that just shutting down conversation, not engaging with that stuff, I think that's bad, right? Yeah, totally. But, but. If you come to the table and you used the right wing sort of social media ecosystem to build a platform, and then you start to say if the mainstream right wing organizations like the president and stuff like that don't capitulate to my vision of the right wing party.

I will tell my voters, which he did to not vote for mainstream conservative candidates. You're just, and I'd even say that all of that is okay up until the point where the direction you want them to shift could never win an actual election cycle.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm. And if

Malcolm Collins: you are playing this game, and it's clearly not like even if I secretly held all of your beliefs, I would not be doing the things you are doing because they are directly counter to your own stated beliefs.

And so if you are doing them, it must mean you don't really hold those beliefs and you're just sort of parasitizing the right wing social media landscape to build clout yourself.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm. Or you're

Malcolm Collins: just incredibly stupid and can't think five steps ahead. But I'm gonna guess it's the first one. I mean, we'll get into evidence for that and, and, and other things here.

So I do think we do need to be able to say when somebody's regularly telling their followers to not vote or not regularly, if they ever use the goodwill of the right to build a right wing audience and then tell their followers not to vote for mainstream right wing politicians. E especially if it's over insane things like Trump's VP being in an interracial marriage, buddy.

If we go back to a party against interracial marriages, you're not gonna win any election cycle, even if only Republicans are voting. But we'll get into all that in a second. But, so I, the reason why I was just going over all this, you know, transgressing boundaries with degrees anti-liberal, a lot of people see a lot of our philosophy 'cause we've done videos where we talk about the benefits of monarchy, where we talk about the benefits of social systems, where it's not one individual, one vote.

Where we talk about ways that capitalism could fail us because we're open to criticizing these questions. And then the old right, just wasn't open to questioning or criticizing these things. And you see this across the right now you know, whether it's courtesy Arvin mainstream, right-wing monarchist who's been on our, our show.

So obviously, you know, aligned with us or the aristocratic utensil you know, another monarchist who's been on the show. And so when they say the woke right now, they're talking about. You, me and our friends, and they're saying, why can't we just go back to that theocratic system, that libertarian system?

Wow. That was still aristocratic and elitist where we held sway.

Simone Collins: Wow. But gosh, is really, I, I just this morning listened to Barry Weiss's interview with the author of the free presses piece on the Rise of the Woke. Right. And this is Recontextualizing so many of the things that the author was saying. Yeah.

Because he, yeah. He was really arguing that this is identity politics and it's just white nationalists and it's, they're coming for your sons. But then, you know, he was talking about various instances where there were people who were like a radicalized headmaster at his. Sons, I think it was a classical Christian school.

Yeah. And like he, yeah, he was clearly identifying as one of those more old guard nineties Republican Christians who wanted to legislate their values upon other people, whether or not they held his same religious beliefs, so, wow. Yeah. Which is not cool from our perspective. Yeah. Get off my lawn.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and, and, and I also note here that they try to police the arguments that you can make.

So they'll say something like, the woke right is, you know, white nationalists when they're generally not white nationalists. Mm-hmm. Because they play identity politics, right? Like, but, but they would play us as playing identity politics because we've pointed out before, right? Like. There genuinely is a, a sort of evolved cabal of interest that victimizes straight white males throughout most of the West.

And you are trying to set up the game board to say that we can't say that, that we can't see that we might have a shared common interest. Was anyone else who's victimized for this same reason now? No, this isn't just straight white males who are black males are victimized by this system. White women are victimized by this.

Well, white women are probably one group that's not let's say Chinese women are victimized by this

Malcolm Collins (2): system.

Malcolm Collins: You know, a lot of people are victimized by the system and have common cause to, to recognize that they are. But when you point out that we're not allowed to recognize that, and we're not allowed to have in-group preference as a system for rec, for, for fighting that you're sort of.

Defanging, one of the core arguments you can make that's not in the traditional theocratic camp of arguments to prevent us from having relevance. And yet it is absolutely something we need to recognize within the current world. But I wanna get back to the thing that they're getting fundamentally wrong.

And it's glee of transgressing boundaries in giving a offense or something new on the right.

An embrace of postmodernism, which until recently was exclusively property of the illiberal left. And this is what they're all getting wrong. They keep associating, and you'll see this throughout. This is the new right, or the woke, right, as they call it, with postmodernism. And they draw this because they see our glee and transgress values.

If you look at our video on the, a aesthetics of the new right. We did with Ra nationalist and sort of the aesthetics of his magazine. Men, what is it? Men Man's World. Yeah. You look at the art of this you see tons of boundary transgressions. You see integration of AI and anime was our memes and everything like that, which people see as like low culture and vulgar.

And they're trying to police us into not using these things, but we don't do it for the reasons that the postmodernists do it. Essentially and I, and I looked up like, what's the definition of postmodernism? Because if you're watching this and you're like, what is, what is postmodernism?

Postmodernism is characterized by a rejection of grand narratives in universal truths associated with modernism. And we'll get into what modernism is within these guys' minds and everything like that. And they're confusing anti-elitism. IE we reject their social norms with rejecting all social lures.

Ah

Malcolm Collins (2): hmm. So they

Malcolm Collins: basically came and they go, why won't you play with the rules that we set up? Oh, you refuse to play by my rules, the rules of the elite. Therefore you must be anti rule altogether. You seem to glee in violating my rules. Therefore, you must not have any system of ethics or rules. And that's not true.

We have a new system of ethics or rules that we are convergently evolving into. A great example of this that I've mentioned was, was man's world, is they did something originally that we did originally, which is that they published you know, trip breaking rules old Playboy like images like, like vintage stuff, right?

Because it's like classy, classic American transgressing boundaries. But then people are like, look, I wanna use this at the coffee table book. I have kids in my house, like, I understand why you're doing this, but I want this to be something that's consumable by kids. And in our video we used to curse and insert clips where people curse quite frequently.

And now I try pretty hard to remove all curse words from our episodes. 'cause some people were like, Hey kids, watch this. And so we are vulgar in that we transgress boundaries and we may talk about sex and sexuality, honestly, and we may talk about kinks honestly, but we, we don't insert vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity.

Right. And you see this in, you know, raw nationalist, intentionally not using punctuation correctly, intentionally not using grammar correctly. He's, he's doing this to thumb his nose at the elite institutions, right? Yeah. Well,

Simone Collins: and, and people with degrees from elite institutions sometimes choosing to adopt anonymous identities to hide the fact that they went to them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And you see this across the new, right? You see, obviously, once his face went to Yale the one who were chest ro no Bron age pervert, Ry Nationalist Oxford and Cambridge after he was dox. Like, you just keep seeing this after these people get dox, they are smart. They beat the old system.

They could be using the old system of a crutch in the way that this guy does, but they don't because they wanna play by the new rules. The rules were only your ideas matter, right? And I think that, that these, these guys, guys like this, they don't like that, right? And so they're, and, and so we'll keep going into this, but fortunately for us, because we're gonna go into his entire game plan, his, his entire game plan rests on misunderstanding that the new right has no social norms and is genuinely postmodern, except that it has a new set of social norms that is in incredibly against high culture, you know.

The academia culture that this is the right way to do things. This is the wrong way to do things. Because we learned that those forms of culture were used by the urban monoculture as a lure to entice people. They said, if you wanna be high class, you wanna go to the opera you need to speak and act and not hold these beliefs and not say things like this and not question these things.

And we're like, oh, you found a way to use all of this against us. We're not playing that game anymore. That's before I go further.

Simone Collins: No, keep going.

Malcolm Collins: And then he goes on to say a generation ago, normies in the academy and other elite cultural institutions failed to see the postmodern left for what it was.

And so they were run over. But from their failure can be gleaned the postmodern rights weakness today, and we can exploit them. So they're coming at us, these old fogies, these boomer rights, okay. They are one of our enemies and they've stated ourselves, we will go anti right where we can, if we can use it to maintain the boomer status quo.

If we can keep you from theorizing about is like, like in the same way that the woke said, oh, there's, there's questions and things you're not allowed to muse. They say you can't muse whether democracy actually works. You can you, you know, whether it's actually the best system anymore now that we have AI and other tools, you know, you can't muse about human genetics.

You can't muse about like, we decided that those were topics you're not allowed to talk about. You know, you can't muse about where human sexuality, you know, how it works because that's not something right wing thinkers do. And I'm like, well then you left a huge gaping window that the left is used to bludgeon us for the past 50 years.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You know, we are, we're engaging with this stuff because you guys failed, your system failed, your beliefs failed. It led to the rise. All of this horribleness that we're dealing with now grew on your rotting corpse.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Under their watch. And I guess, but it only makes sense though that they would, there would be some kind of death throw, there would be some type, type of desperate attempt to reclaim control or fight back against that which is replacing them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. One, one of the funny things I'll often find is, is the person who often gets targeted as like the new, the woke right guy. And I think it's just 'cause he's decided to fight back against this concept, which good on him for doing this is oh, what's his, his name? He does Lotus Eaters. Sargon acad. Oh. And, and what's funny, it's funny, funny about Sargon acad, if you look at Sargon cod's, like actual values and, and policy I think he would frame us as being like left wing people in a right wing space. Yeah. When you actually look at our values rather than, than what we say or our public opinion we are to the right of him. The only space that I can find where he's significantly to the right of us is on abortion.

And I'd say that we are right of center on abortion. We definitely want a lot more restrictions on it. But we're not for life being as a conception. And I think that he's at around that area. But he's actually an atheist and we are quite religious now. While we started, our influencer lives the atheist. I even go to First Hills. We're religious extremists now. Which puts us also in, in quite a more conservative camp. But because our religion is different, other people are like, eh but it's probably no different than a conservative Mormon or something.

So, you know,. But I, but I always find that interesting that somehow he's known as this far right person, but it's actually just because he rose to fame during the era of cancellation.

And during the era of YouTube demonetization and everything like that. And so he was like de fenestrated for pretty milk toast views which is kind of sad, right? Like, yeah, he, he paved the ray for a lot of the rest of us. But you might be thinking, oh, it's just this one piece who frames the woke right?

As postmodern. So I'm gonna go to another piece. This is a, is there a woke right by the American reformer? Hmm. Okay. And, and they were quoting somebody else, oh is, so they say, for example, in 2020, I succinctly defined wokeness as society is divided into oppressed and oppressor groups along lines of race, class, gender, sexuality, et cetera.

Now note, he wants to prevent people from saying that, right? That's a problem if society is literally divided into oppressed and oppressor class groups. And one of the oppressed groups is white, straight people and males, right? Mm-hmm. Like there clearly is a social hierarchy of ethnicities and genders and sexual orientations within the urban monoculture.

And he's like, you are on the woke, right? If you call that out. So. Hegemonic power, but privileged people are blind. So three, we need to defer to the lived experiences of the marginalized to four dismantle the unjust systems. Basically he's saying, you can't call out the current system that we're under right now, or you're in the woke.

Right. And this was the something that a lot of the old right people started ringing about when people went out there and been like, no, the system is rigged against men right now. There is an earning gap, a pay gap among youth. Apparently this was something we needed to panic about when it was women for young men right now.

And yet we don't have that. There is.

Simone Collins: Whoa, really? I didn't know that. So for like college grads.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It's an employment gap. There's a obviously getting into college gap. There's an education gap. It's just sort of all across the board. Young men are obviously systemically discriminated against in society.

Yeah, I didn't know there was a,

Simone Collins: a pay gap though, honestly. I just figured like, if anything that the college gap was favorables, maybe it would drive more young men into the trades, which are lucrative and practical and going to do better, I think initially with ai. Anyway, so, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And, and so then he goes on here and he says, so from here he, he seeks to redefine woke, right?

And precisely analogous terms, one society is divided into straight white men and their enemies. Now very few. Like well-known people in the woke right here would say straight white men and their enemies. We would say the convergence, this is a bit like saying the left is about you know, trans black, gay women and their enemies.

And it's like, no. It's about all of the intersecting discriminated groups that have some reason to want equality to be reintroduced to our society. Right. Yeah. So it is. Straight men and white men and other, and there's a lot of other, like Asian men are, are, are in terms of college admission, for example much more discriminated against than white men.

Jews are, are more discriminated against in some context and believe because they outperform other groups just about any group that is generally speaking, outperforming other groups due to more work. You know, as we pointed out with Asian groups, they just spend a lot more time working on homework.

I think it was, it was like 11 extra hours a week and I was like,

Simone Collins: yeah, like,

Malcolm Collins: okay, I get it. They're trying to normalize for that, remove that from them. So they're trying to, why do they need to take this weapon away from us? Because when they do, then they can bring the right conversation back to only let's impose the, our theocratic norms.

Let's remove regulation. Right. Instead of let's try to build a society that works. Yeah. And then two hegemonic norms. The longhouse post-war consensus. Judeo Christianity, but normies are blind. So three, we need to red pill them. Four. Retake the west. Okay. But here's the thing, we, the west has been conquered by the urban monoculture.

This is very obvious. This is a new cultural movement. If you value. If, if you, if you view your culture as an iteration of the ancient Western tradition, and keep in mind there's many, they pretend like there's one ancient Western tradition. Like for example, the most base level, the Protestant tradition and the Catholic tradition are not the same tradition.

The, the Orthodox tradition is not the same tradition. The Jewish tradition is not the same tradition. Yeah. We are all allied together as descendants of a tradition. That used to allow multiple groups that were different from each other to work together in harmony because the fire nation attacked, you know, the, the urban monoculture came along and said, no, there can only be one way of thinking and one way of acting.

And if you look at one of the things that made the ancient Western tradition unique, like you look at the early Americas is it was many highly diverse groups. And I I I, I talk to people today who like just don't know their history and they're like, come on, early America wasn't as diverse as modern America.

And I'm like, no. It was culturally significantly more diverse. If you're contrasting Quaker and cavalier views on just about anything, or Quaker in Puritan or Puritan in Cavalier or Cavalier in backwards all of these cultures were, I mean, no one in America today are, are very few. You're not gonna have like a major cultural region in the US that's like, well, yeah, some humans should be owned by other humans because there are a genetic subways, you know, but that was common back then.

And, and it was like an ex, well, they must be

Simone Collins: referring to. Racial diversity than I guess, right?

Malcolm Collins: No. No. They, they, they have this myth of America as a Christian nation. No. When they don't understand that Christianity was in Quakerism was probably as, as distant. I, I would say that these two things are as distant from each other.

Like if you're viewing Quaker Christianity and Puritan Christianity. Yeah. As set, set, what is it? Roman Mass Catholics and Unitarian universalism. Oh yeah. No,

Simone Collins: super, super different. Well, and then you had the Cavaliers in the south who kind of didn't really care the, like they were just the second sons who were looking to make fortune.

They were so, yeah, there was, there was massive religious diversity. Like you had two religion religious extremists who were super against the Church of England, didn't like what they were doing. And then you had the guys who were like, yeah. I'm fine with the Church of England would've stayed had I inherited the house, you know, but,

Malcolm Collins: but what I'm pointing out here is they're coming to the table saying you can't point out that something like a longhouse exists.

That something like Judeo-Christian value systems exists crazy. That something like the urban monoculture exists and that they are our enemies. That's

Simone Collins: crazy.

Malcolm Collins: And you can't point out that people need to be red pilled or woken up that our mainstream narratives are wrong. Right? Like they, this is what they come to the table whi because they want to undermine us.

These people are not like of the right wing, right wing movement. You can try to come up with a phrase for them. But I, I, I think like in the same way that they, they call the woke, right? I, I, I, people are like, they're not real, right? It's not that they're real, right? I guess Boomer, right? They're boomer, right?

Simone Collins: Or Christian Caliphate.

Malcolm Collins: No they're not. Because there are extremist Christians on the woke, right? There are good guy extremist Christians, right? Yeah. So they're not that they are boomer, right? They are. They want to recreate the right, that created the wokes that the wokes already beat. You had your shot guys.

And yes, I am Ian and I view your weakness with disgust. But yeah. So it's not just them that are enemies. I've also noted, and I don't like syn. Anything bad about Nick Fuentes? Nick Foes is one of the first mainstream figures to talk about us. He talked about us in positive terms.

I don't I think that he's sort of doing a shtick similar to what Andrew Tate is. I, as we note, I sort of think Andrew Tate became the shtick. He reminds me of the guy in Tropic Thunder who forgot if he was playing a character or not anymore.

Speaker 2: For 400 years, that word has kept us down. What the ?

Took a whole lot of time just to get up that hill. Now we up in the big leagues getting out there the bat. Long as we live it. You me, baby.

Speaker 3: That's the theme song for the Jeffersons. You really need help

Speaker 2: and just 'cause the theme song. Don't make it not true.

Malcolm Collins: And now he's just the character every day when he wakes up.

I don't, I think Nick Fuentes is very aware of what he's doing. But I don't, I think that part of me makes me even sadder that he's doing it because he knows that his views hurt our overall chances of winning. And he's more concerned with his status. You know, like trying to make antisemitism institutional to right wing institutions.

Even if you and I were secretly anti-Semitic, we wouldn't push that because it wouldn't, you need to win the ink. We're mental victories first, even if that's your long term goal.

Simone Collins: Well, do you think maybe, maybe he sees it as trying to move the Overton window like he knows. It's not gonna lead to any real progress, but he just is trying to change what people think is the face.

Even, even

Malcolm Collins: if that was the case and he wouldn't tell people not to vote for Trump. But he seems to sincerely, and, and keep in mind, you can look at our videos of the, the bigots turned against Trump, you know, leather Apron Club did the same thing. Don't vote for Trump. David Duke did the same thing.

Richard Spencer did the same thing. We've sort of seen this across this sort of group that went really far in this one direction. So it's not just like Nick Fuentes who was doing this. Yeah. I think all of these guys can be perfectly pleasant human beings. I think a lot of them are intellectual powerhouses.

I really like leather Apron Club as a thinker. But I think that at the end of the day, if you gave somebody a knife once and they stabbed you in the back, you can never give them a knife again. That's the problem, right? Yeah. Like if they, they oppose our collective interest. Because they know Donald Trump winning is better than Kamala winning, like from their own stated value set.

So either they're lying about their value set or they don't actually care about that value set. They just care about using people. I'm just

Simone Collins: trying to think if there's any other thing. Maybe if they think that if there's four more years for unrest to be fermented among the right, then they will be even stronger.

Like there's something, there's an inherent weakening that takes place when your side has won and you become indolent. I'm, I'm just trying to think through what, what else it could possibly be, because it just seems so, otherwise

Malcolm Collins: intentionally self-serving. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, fortunately a lot of these people have sort of been pushed out of the mainstream rite or the woke right.

Because the, the, when, when the right has more solidified our alliance with Israel. Mm-hmm. Which was really sort of forced through these recent wars. IE forced to pick a side and before a lot of people on the right didn't really feel like they had to pick a side. Mm-hmm. And they saw, oh, the left is the anti-Israel party.

I am enough anti-Semitic that now I'm conflicted and it might be worse supporting the left. So I think that's what we're getting here. But let's go back to this guy's writings because I think it's really interesting. It, this is back to the original article here it on how they're gonna defeat us in his 2004 book Explaining postmodernism, Stephen R.

Hicks posits three categories of thought about how the world has historically been ordered, premodern, modern and postmodern, where premodern emphasizes faith, hierarchy and duty to God. Modernism emphasizes reason, individualism, and autonomy, and. Postmodernism in turn sees reason as a sham authority, as a mass for power and groups as prior to individuals.

Now what's interesting to this is if you looked at the core actual ideology of the woke, right, it very clearly falls under not pre-modern face hierarchy and duty to God but much closer to reason, individualism and autonomy or what he calls modernism, but it doesn't reject the two other systems.

Mm-hmm. And this is what he's getting wrong, right? He thinks in the old mindset you have to choose one of these. Whereas what we say is we say, I believe in reason, individualism, and autonomy as core political values. But I think that also I need face hierarchy and a duty to God. And I also agree with what the postmodernist says.

Some people can use reason as a sham as they have captured the institutions that define what's true and what's not true.

Authority can be a mask to power. And many groups are using it as that right now. And groups do exist and have the capability of opposing my interests.

Simone Collins: Fair? Yeah.

Speaker: to protect the world from devastation,

Speaker 2: to unite all peoples within our nation to

Speaker: denounce the evils

Speaker 2: of

Speaker: truth and

Speaker 2: love. To extend our reach to the stars above

Malcolm Collins: Traditionalism or hicks equivalent to it anchors truth and holy books and prophets.

It's these people as spiritual beings in a divinely ordered world, traditionalism is ancient. Whereas modernism takes its cues from the enlightenment. Truth is what can be seen and provided reason and evidence, supplant, spiritualism, tribalism, and subjective intuition. And here what I note is I agree reason and evidence do supplant in the new right view in the woke Wrights view, spiritualism, tribalism and subjective intuition. Mm-hmm. But they do not supplant holy books and prophets.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You can, you can supplant, you can say Holy books and prophets have value, tradition has value.

Where spiritualism, tribalism into Tu subjective intuition, do not. That's like the core thing we rail against on this channel. Postmodernism is a NewCom emerging in post-war Europe. It adopts radical skeptical epistemology viewing claims to capital T. Truth as TEFL puts it as assertions of power efforts by dominant social actors to impose and legitimize their own often oppressive agendas.

Whereas you see. A truth claim, you should unmask it, look behind it to see whom it might benefit. Now here I'm saying why is it bad that we would want to do this? If somebody comes to me and they say, this thing is true, he's basically saying, if somebody more powerful than you, it's more degrees than you, with more institutional power to you, comes to you and says, this is true.

You shouldn't then ask how, who, who is this benefiting? This, this norm that you just created?

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Who,

Malcolm Collins: who is it benefiting to say that men and women are actually exactly the same? Who is it benefiting? Right? Who, who is it benefiting to say that, that there are, I I, this is something that we need to ask whenever we hear something like this so we can understand why somebody might have a motivation to push a particular agenda.

Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: And yet he's saying, you can't do that. That's postmodern. You can't do that. Now, I would note you shouldn't pathologically do it. You shouldn't assume that nothing is true. But if anybody comes to you and says, this is true. Because I have more authority to you rather than because of reason or logic.

That is something you should be questioning. Scientific modernism wants to assess claims, not claimants. Postmodernism reverses the emphasis. Who were the scientists? CES Tofl, what color were they? What gender, what country were they in? What biases do they have? He's saying you can't ask those questions, but you need to.

It matters. If I have a study and it says Crest Toothpaste is the best toothpaste ever, and I know to the guy and I go, was there any chance that this was put out by Crest Scientist working on a Crest Grant? And the person is like, well, that's a pretty racist question to ask. You're like, it's not a racist question to ask.

It matters. Was it the Crest Scientist? And it matters just as much if you're talking about in group thing. If I read a report saying. You know, Catholics are the best. Everybody loves the Catholics and is put out by the Vatican or by like Notre Dame University, Moses. I mean, Notre Dame is super woke now, but you know what I mean, like old school.

I'm, I'm gonna need to have some skepticism around that, but I can't do that when it's an ethnic group. What, what, what, what if a Chinese scientist put out a paper in China saying Chinese people are better than every other asset group that could happen. You don't think that I should take into account that a Chinese scientist did that?

What you, what these people are trying to do is use core arguments in the same way. The left does, like simple arguments, like a Chinese report that comes out from China saying Chinese people are better than everyone else. That, that if I call that out, I'm a racist. They're trying to defang us of individual arguments here, individual pathways of argument until there's nothing left.

But their old system that they used in the fifties and sixties.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Then to continue, you see what, you see what I mean there? This whole woke right thing is more insidious than you think.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yikes.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. But when the enemy proverbially controls the definers of truth was in a culture. You know that and I know that and you tell me that, oh, sorry, this is something I wrote and I just said all that.

Oh, actually I actually think it's a good point, so I'll read it. Yes. But when the enemy proverbially controls the definers of truth within a culture, and you know, when I knew that they do, and you tell me I cannot question them, you are showing your hand. You are the enemy. Which is the truth about these people when they say you can't question dominant narratives, they're showing, they are setting the dominant narratives.

Malcolm Collins (2): Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many of these people vote against Trump and just say that they they are, they are on our side. But anyway radical skepticism is like the acid that eats through every container. And sure enough, postmodernism skepticism undermined itself. How could it be for anything if all truths claims, including its own, are mass for power?

The answer came in what Plecos and Lindsay identify as a second wave of postmodernism, which handily enough exempted itself from skepticism, identity and oppression now took center stage Society is best understood not as an association of autonomous individuals, but as contradict areas of groups contending for dominance and organized into hierarchies.

The third wave thus came to embrace exactly that sort of dogmatism and authoritarianism, which the first wave of postmodernism had set out to challenge an overthrow. Well, I see that this happened on the left, but that's not why we're throwing things out. We're not throwing them out reflexively in the way that previous groups are.

We are throwing them out as a matter of self-protection. We are examining them. We are saying people have used authority to mask things. People have used truth claims to mask hidden agendas, and therefore it's worth questioning them. And people have used high culture and saying, this is vulgar, and that's vulgar to control our actions.

Absolutely.

Simone Collins: They,

Malcolm Collins: they define questioning these things, like this entire string of questions I've been asking is a vulgar string of questions for a, a, a old right tea party. Right. You know, or whatever the f it is that they did. All right, so then to skip ahead, because it was unmoored from any commitment to objectivity or consistency, we could make both. You could work both sides of every street even better. It's radical skepticism. Here he is talking about the original wokes rejection of norms and revolutionary energy made it seemingly impervious to rational arguments and moral objections.

A perfect rhetorical fortress as George Luca, Enrique Scaffle call it Now, note here he's talking about you can't be radically skeptic. I think we need to be radically skeptic in a world where the dominant cultural force has basically said, it's our enemy, right? Yeah. Yeah. We need to reject cultural norms when the dominant cultural force is our enemy because they set the cultural norms and doing both of those gives us revolutionary energy.

That doesn't mean that we are anti rational argument. It means you need to actually make that rational argument and just say that you are confronting cultural norms.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Objecting to Wokes, hypocrisy, inconsistency, and empirical shoddiness got you mocked, disqualified, and personally attacked. However, philosophically unintelligible woke may have been.

Its rhetorical virality and sheer aggressiveness. Conquered the intelligentsia was astonishing speed. And he's right about this, that that did happen, but it doesn't undermine that we need to be skeptical and reject social norms to win. Stephen Hex 2004 book on postmodernism. So, so now I'm reading from, from the book.

Principles of Civility and Procedural Justice simply serve as masks for hypocrisy and oppression. Born of asymmetrical power relations masks that can be ripped off by crude verbal and physical weapons add hominem arguments in your face shock tactics in equally cynical power displays, disagreements are met not with arguments.

The benefit of the doubt and the expectation that reason can prevail. But with as assertion, animosity, and a willingness to resort to force, having rejected reason, we will not expect ourselves or others to behave reasonably. And again, here you can note that. This is trying to correlate skepticism with stuff like ad hominin in arguments fighting against powerful institutions as is a sort of pathology, right?

A decade later. His description is very accurately characterized in what might be called the alt-right. My own first glimpse of this strange new phenomenon came in 2014, was the Eruption of Gamergate, an episode in which anonymous trolls heaped abuse and threats on a female game developer.

No. The way here that this individual, this individual who claims to be on the right, our ally says

Simone Collins: Anti Gamergate

Malcolm Collins: Gamer Gate, an episode in which anonymous trolls heaped abuse and threats on a female video game

Simone Collins: developer. Oh, okay. He's not one of us. All right. Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: These people are our enemies. They are our, they're not our enemies as much as the traitors are our enemies, because at least.

Presumably they still vote our way. But we need to keep in mind that they are coming for us and they have declared war against us. Right. And I think a lot of the right needs to pick a side, like especially the theocratic factions, because they can find a home on either side. Mm-hmm. They can either join people like this, who want the old social norms back, who want to control with power, or they can join the alliance the, the diverse alliance, which represents what these people call the woke.

Right. Which is okay with subverting cultural norms. And as we've noted in our other stuff, this largely also came as a shift as the cultural power center of the right, moved from the cavalier cultural region of the United States, or the deep south cultural region to the greater Appalachian or backwards cultural region.

Which basically went from an aristocratic cultural tradition to an anti aristocratic cultural tradition.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which you see in right wing vulgarity is an anti aristocratic thing to do. It's, it's a way of signaling that you are not attempting to play the mainstream power game. And, and that's why it's seen as authenticating authenticity with, in what he calls the woke.

Right. It's, it's why Bronze Age perfect. Intentionally misspells things. Yeah. It's why zero HP Lovecraft intentionally breaks social conventions when he's talking. While the campaign was not political, it codes as white male, right wing and aggressively subversive. This is what he talked about.

Gamergate. Although better informed friends, warned me to pay attention. I shrugged off Gamergate as random online craziness. In reality, it debuted the joker, like nihilism of the postmodern. Right. And I'll note here, everything he said up until then was right. It did. You know, we've, we've had episodes where we talk about how the modern right came from this moment gamer game.

But gamer game, they were completely justified. Like it was insane. A woman was sleeping with games, journalists and they weren't disclosing this and they were writing about it, and she was cheating on her boyfriend the entire time. The, yeah, she wasn't

Simone Collins: exactly a bastion of the conservative values that I think this man stands for, but he's still choosing to side with her, technically speaking.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And. Right here. He's like, my friends warned me to pay attention to this. I thought it was beneath me very much. He's signaling I am not the type who cares about what goes on in gaming culture. Right. Like he's signaling why he doesn't engage with slow culture. He goes to the upper, he goes to plays in Broadway.

Even though those have been the, the, the vehicles of transmission of the woke mind virus of the urban monoculture.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But what, well,

Simone Collins: okay. I don't think opera is, but it, it's certainly been. A status signaler among those who are part of that community.

Malcolm Collins: But what he gets wrong is he says, in reality it debuted the joker like nihilism at the postmodern.

Right. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing about the postmodern Right. Is the nihilistic. You watch your episodes on this, but I'd argue it's the exact opposite. It's extremely vital. It's

Simone Collins: vitalistic. Yeah. In in, in the face of nihilism it says, no, we are proud of who we are. We will fight, we will endure.

We will take the future. Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And he's like, but what about your weird pervy anime art? And I'm like, I'm not gonna let you police what I think is cool. Yeah. I think Hinze ish save Trump and hin. Big titty, anime girls look cool and that, you know, Trump is, is a, a, a ba with, with like missiles coming outta his mouth.

You, you, you want to police how vitalistic I can be because you see vitalism and a love of life without concern for your constraints as vulgar because you use vulgarity to police other groups to force them to fit into your cultural norms.

Someone who did notice and appreciate what was happening was Angela Nagel, whose 2017 book Kill All Normies Presciently identified the convergence of the alt-right with the far left. The alt-right she observed is a transgressive and wool breaking as the left once was true, like the left. It gleefully, averts, cultural norms struck, smug, ironic poses and or pros and embraced harassment and bullying.

First of all, no, you really don't get that much bullying on the right except when people have doubled down on positions that explicitly hurt other individuals. The gamer gate stuff happened because the girl who did all of this, when she was called out for it, didn't point out the fact that she was using the fact that she was sleeping with people to screw over other indie game devs in terms of not getting coverage.

She didn't pull back. She could, she. Immediately reached out and tried to attack and ruin the lives of the people who were calling her out. That is every time I have seen the quote unquote woke right, fight back, it is because somebody else attacked first. If you look at the Anna Valence, who was the most recent person canceled, who did all these attacks trying to ruin Kirsha the Fox v YouTuber's career again, like, we don't care about your norms.

We could be a V YouTuber, we can be an anime, Fox v YouTuber, whatever, right? Like, she could be a mainstream figure of the woke ride, but we, we do that and then some psycho comes in and tries to ruin our lives by lying about us with very normal takes. And we say, okay, f you, we can fight back. We're not afraid of fighting back.

They are right. We understand that this isn't just about political battles, but people need to understand the reason why we're not gonna see v tubing eaten by the wokes in the same way gaming was, or as fast as gaming was, or as fast as, you know, even with other fields like tabletop gaming and comics is because they didn't fight back the first time.

Somebody says, well, this is my space. You know, we had the other time where somebody was canceled recently, which was a return of shadows or like, in, in love of shadows or something. The guy who did this big rant of against conservative YouTubers and saying that they're not welcome, conservatives aren't welcome in the horror genre space, right?

It's like, how effing dare you? Because the moment one person gets away with this, then other people do it, and then you really aren't welcome. You're not welcome at conventions. 'cause people go and they, they, they call up the convention staff and everything like that and he's saying, you can't fight back.

Because he's not on our side. He's like a, a person who's been injected into the right trying to get us to make all of the dumbest moves possible. When Milo OUIs a permanent right-wing influencer said, quote, birth control makes women unattractive and crazy in quote, was he just quitting or being truly misogynistic?

What, what the heck do you mean misogynistic birth control can change women's physiology to an extent.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But sometimes for the, for the better. The, the one birth control that I was on the longest controlled acne, so I'm just saying.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. My experience less acne and less mood swings is generally for the better.

But some women, it, it just makes worse. Right. And we need to talk about this. Some girls, they don't understand that birth control can have negative effects, right. Because,

Simone Collins: and it, and it can also especially profoundly affect sex drive. So yeah.

Malcolm Collins: With Pepe The Frog, a lighthearted meme or a racist hate symbol, it was, it was a lighthearted meme that you turned into a racist hate symbol.

It was a lighthearted meme about a racist hate symbol in the same way that Fortune Chan was like, let's see if we can turn the Okay sign. Let's see if we can get ESS to see this as a racist hate symbol. And then Wiles did, and then a few bottom feeding, like actual racists started using it. And Wilkis were like, oh, you see, that's our proof.

It's like, no, really, we're just making fun of you for, for freaking out about everything. Mm-hmm. We're violating your cultural norms because it's funny, it's funny to watch you freak out. Like it is that Spazzy kid in class. Was triple parentheses around Jewish names prankish trolling or a veiled threat.

You just couldn't tell. And really, I missed this one because LOL nothing matters. It's like, no things do matter. It it, it does matter that people tried to use the claim that Pepe was racist to attack people who were playing around with a lighthearted meme. They tried to police language of people like myo to not be allowed to question things like the effects of birth control.

Okay. That people weren't even allowed to say, Hey, why did Jews have disproportionate amounts of power in our society? Did, did, did. That's not a question you're allowed to ask in the old paradigm.

Simone Collins: Has,

Malcolm Collins: has this guy the

Simone Collins: old paradigm of, of boomer rights, you mean?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the boomer. Right.

Simone Collins: Because the boomer lefts are questioning stuff about Jews all the time.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: boomer, or sorry, the left. Everyone

Malcolm Collins: is doing that one sees here the same subjectivism that became the hallmark of left postmodernism. Because the objectivity is fiction. There is no single reality. But rather, my reality and our reality contending against your reality. It was no objective basis to choose narratives must struggle to dominate how to win.

In this context of narratives, the postmodern formula holds that language constructs, discourse discourse, constructs power and power constructs reality, manipulating what people say, thus manipulates reality itself. This explains the postmodern left obsession with language from neo pronouns to terms like pregnant person, the idea that words are violence to the idea that words are violence.

I mean, they're not wrong about this. That is a, a good strategy that they were using. And then do dot, dot. And then he tries to parallel this in the woke, right where he says, consider in parallel how the Trump administration controls language already, according to a recent report from Semafore, quote, across the government, the Trump administration has clamped down on language.

Multiple agencies have ordered the removal of gendered pronouns and from email signatures. While White House has said it won't respond to journalists who, with pronouns in their bios quote. So they have, oh, goodness gracious, but know what he's doing here. How he's defining the woke right playbook, you're not allowed to use.

He's saying you're not allowed to criticize pronouns. You're not allowed what, what, what? You're not allowed to, you're not allowed to roll that back. Trump is rolling back something the left, the wokes put into place that was genuinely effective at changing social narratives, genuinely effective at policing.

Who could do what because. Right wing people did business with people whether or not they had pronouns in their bios. Yeah. Left wing people only did business with people, had pronouns in their bios. Do you not see how unfair that is? But he wants them to maintain that asymmetric advantage by tying our arms behind our backs.

I

JD Vance said in 2024 when confronted about false stories that immigrants eat pets. Oh, he is one of these people who had a spasm about that. If I have to create stories, so the American media actually paid attention to the suffering of the American people.

That's what I'm gonna do. And he's freaking out about this. Right? Like, why, why it ma The point matters. The point matters is that it's believable. Like we all know from what's happening with immigrants now, that something like that could have happened. Right. The reason why the left freaked out about that, that specific thing.

Probably, maybe didn't happen is because they, they don't want to accept the wider message, which is that normal Americans are suffering. How? Because of immigration and unchecked immigration into specific areas. How can I say this in a way that the media will actually cover it. If I just say normal Americans are suffering because of immigration, the media's not gonna cover that, are they?

You know, you know, and I know they're not gonna cover that. If I say they're eating dogs and cats, okay, now because they think they can get something on me, they're gonna cover it a bunch, right? And he's saying, uhoh, you can't, you can't use that. You can't use that effective tactic, right? Likewise the postmodern right shares, its left wing counterparts contempt for expertise, not expertise.

Quote unquote expertise is what I'm saying here. Oh. Which it views as a tool for elite domination of discourse, which it is when expertise is defined by you as how many degrees you have and what institutions you work for. Which is why so many of the new right figures who had all these degrees didn't lead with these degrees.

In respect the appointment of conspiracy minded Robert F. Kennedy Jr. To run the Department of Health and Human Services has a distinctly postmodern flavor. RF Kennedy Jr. It's very awesome. I like him as a candidate. Like, I love his bear story that made me a love him.

That was the game changer for, for so many. I'm like, the guy saw roadkill and he is like. Yeah, I'm not try to eat that. Let's let's give that a shot. I'm like this, this guy, this guy asks but yeah, they, they, he's like, oh, RF Kennedy Jr. Except we know, you know, the granola Mons the left, many parts of the right have known for a long time that a lot of these institutions you know, are, are, are not our friends, right?

They, they do not have this shared interest with us. And they, they, some of the stuff that they were saying around what's healthy and what's not healthy, he's this guy here. Oh, all these conspiracy theories about smoking, giving you cancer, don't, don't they know that the researcher, that big tobacco, you have already said, that's a, that's a myth created by the liberal government.

You know, it's like, what? See what I mean? He's just trying to defanging every argument that the actual right has to try to go back to an earlier time. Thoughts before I go further, Simone? 'cause people, they love hearing from you. You're the smart one.

Simone Collins: I am just kind of stunned. I, I should have seen this for what it was, I guess.

And I just, yeah, you list

Malcolm Collins: a bunch of stuff and you're like, oh, it's totally reasonable criticism.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, oh, I guess it's bad that identity politics is making its way to the, the, to the right and that the right is mean, girl policing itself now in a way that the left did. But what you're saying here is the mean girls are the people who've made this concept in the first place.

Mm-hmm. They're the mean girls. The, the call is coming from inside the house. And I, I, I mean, after hearing what you've read here, pretty compelling, and then of course it makes sense because I, I, every time you talked about the old version of the right, I thought. Gosh, aren't they kind of uncomfortable with what's happening right now?

You know, our whole new like pluralistic libertarian approach to the right would sit wrong with people who wanted to legislate their values upon others. Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: but truly because it's not just libertarian. He wants to go back to either theocratic or just libertarian values. Mm-hmm. He hates that we're up here having discussions about, well, should it really be one person, one vote?

You know? Should we, should we, is is UBI actually bad? You know, monarchy the age of ai. Yeah. What about monarchy? You know, he, he wants to narrow what we can talk about on the right when I think what unifies the right today is really our long-term goal, which is human flourishing.

Simone Collins: Well, and this is why I think you refer to it as the new Right.

And not conservatism, because it isn't about going back to tradition. It's not about the cargo cult of the old ways. It is about. Progress from a very pragmatic standpoint, even if it doesn't look great, even if the optics are off

Malcolm Collins: well, it has a degree of tradition in it. Like it's not well, it's, well, it's not,

Simone Collins: not in the way that the, that capital C conservatives want,

they want their windows and fences. They want chesterton's fence to just stay there and we want to disassemble it and then like make it integrated with ai drone swarms and have automatic sensors in it and, you know, like modernize it and then rebuild it. Like, we wanna make the pieces modernize them and then put it back and they're like, no, don't mess with my fence.

And we're like, but if, if you leave the fence now this new predator is gonna get through. And they're like, no, the fence works. It has always worked and it will always work. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It's like, it's like they, hey fences may be good, but maybe we just need to stack them on top of each other and then we can attach some electrical wires to it.

Yeah. Like, how dare you. Yeah. There's never been electrical wires on a fence before. Yeah. It's like, well look, we're not anti fence. We just don't think that this fence is gonna keep out the jumping leopards. Anyway. Christian nationalists, libertarians and MAGA populists share no common view of role of government for the common good.

Traditional conservatives call for Christianized postliberal order is thoroughly incompatible with modern conservatives embrace of individualism, freedom and dynamic entrepreneurship and boasts sit crosswired in the postmodern rights. Leering nihilism. This is wrong. They actually do have a lot that they get over.

Look, we are the very much like the, the logic order science type, and I agree with the Christian, like the traditionalist old school Christian types and we're Christians as well. But I'm talking about, you know, you know, you guys know what I'm talking about. Sunday school types. We agree with him on everything where we can actually win an election.

So for example, we may disagree that like gay marriage should be banned, or abortion should be legislated to begin at. A conception, but we're not gonna win elections if we take those views. So it's irrelevant, you know? Right. They may disagree with us on, you know, wanting a super soldier program and, and you know, government, government gene editing Manhattan program, but, you know, that's, that's never gonna win an election anyways.

Right. But, but on restricting access to abortion, yeah. We both agree with that on keeping all this crazy alphabet soup stuff outta schools. Yeah. We agree with that. And we agree on all the areas that actually matter on, on decreasing the size of government. Yeah. We can agree on all of that, of trying to find a way to make the economy work in a post J world.

Oh yeah. We have agree with that on, you know, globalism being a bad idea. Yeah. We agree on that. You know, like we agree on every area where we can actually win. That's, that's why we work together so well.

Simone Collins: Yeah, exactly.

Malcolm Collins: The game plan for the postmodern right then is to not earn a place in the philosophical firmament.

Build a durable coalition or prove itself in government. It cannot make, make a cohesive case, play well as others or run anything. Well, just fundamentally not true. Anyone who knows, like we work with groups like The Heritage Foundation and stuff like that, which is an old school group as well. They've just decided to join the woke w right.

You know, the right, that's this collection of others. Instead of sticking with these guys and trying to police what it means to be right wing. Mm-hmm. Instead it relies on shock, surprise and aggressive disregard for norms to neutralize opponents that embeds itself in institutions to stay in power. No, it uses shock, surprise and aggressive disregard for norms because the norms are being set by a group that is antagonistic to us.

And the shock and surprise is what they feel when we ignore them and we can tie up here. But yeah. I think that this guy is a very different type of threat than the traitors the boomer Right. Is a different type of threat than the traitors.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think we just need to call 'em what they are.

Boomer. Right. Like it's boomers, boomer to through and through boomer right. Is not friends Boomer Right. Is what created woke. They are, they are lesser than friends. If they ever win again, woke will beat them again because Woke has beaten them before.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm. We

Malcolm Collins: use different tactics from them and they want to defang us of all of those tactics because they feed the tactics working and they want to go back to a world where they have control.

Yeah. And we don't want that. That's not in our best interest because we actually want to win. That's actually the goal. As JD Vance said, thank God he's hopefully gonna be the next president.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping for it.

Malcolm Collins: And you saw the, this all seems so innocuous to you when it's laid out in something other than this, and then you see it in this context and you go, you b******s, you b*****d.

And I just can't believe these people portraying sarta like this far right. Figure. The dude is. So, and I, and I don't even mean this, like he's, he's

Simone Collins: curmudgeonly and pretty conservative in his views. By conservative, I mean, like, I don't think there's a whole lot of stuff that he says. It's really radical.

Mm-hmm. He's even like her or I don't want to have more kids. It's too much work. He's like,

Malcolm Collins: I. Pro-gay, atheist guy. Like what, what are you talking about?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Doesn't sit right. This accusation. It's certainly not

Malcolm Collins: a, a white nationalist or a Christian nationalist. It's, it's, you try to portray him to be you know, I, not my read, I, I am disappointed that he's never done anything with us or, or interactive with us, but I think we're just too edgy for him to be honest.

Which of course we are. We're too

Simone Collins: small. Too small and or too edgy. Yeah. I don't know. A lot of people don't wanna touch us for whatever reason. They hate our glasses. I can't stand 'em.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to us Simon. Mom.

Simone Collins: I love you too. Gorgeous.

Octavian Collins: Do I need to do, um, me to, um, get all your money and I'm gonna call somebody over and my dad can pick us some work towards for all the money we have. Okay? So we're going to take all of our money and do, what was it? Um, get, hire some workers to help me go my birthday because with all of the birthday I needed, I'm gonna some knowledge.

Octavian Collins (2): And it does, and it's a pretty wa of building. So you're gonna need a lot of money to build what, um, to like. Stop the, to get some workers to hire to build my birthday. Okay. And it's gonna be the biggest birthday ever. Yeah. I think. Um, what do you think about doing a squirt gun fight? That's what we were thinking about doing is getting you, yeah.

I also, mom said like we can put on the food and cotton candy and all this stuff that, oh, and we invited. The most people are possible and you daddy.

In this episode, we delve into Gavin Newsom's recent attempts at political trolling and discuss whether trolling is a necessary part of modern American politics. The conversation touches on Newsom's persona, his political strategies, and his attempts to mimic Donald Trump's trolling techniques. We also compare Newsom's affluent upbringing and political maneuvers with JD Vance's rise from poverty, highlighting how these contrasts shape public perception. The episode critiques Newsom's authenticity and examines his political record, including controversies and his handling of California's issues. Tune in to hear an in-depth analysis of one of America's most polarizing political figures.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about Gavin Newsom and he figured out trolling. And the last didn't exactly figure it out. You know, he, he's sort of the human personification of the left can't meme. But he has started trolling and the left is loving it.

So it's like in Jurassic

Simone Collins: Park when the Raptor has figured out how to use door handles.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Except not really. Oh,

Simone Collins: God. But he's getting traction. I just think it's, it's too soon. He's, I, I

Malcolm Collins: also, it's a wider theme of this episode. What I want to ask is, 'cause some people have been saying this, they go, you do not appear to be able to have a voice.

Was in modern American politics without trolling that trolling is a necessary part of playing the current political game. And I would argue yes, yes it is. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing as a lot of people say. I mean, we have grown our political platform through trolling. , And I love that the left is [00:01:00] attempting to troll now because it comes off.

So bad,

Sorry, I re remembered that we have a bunch of non-American viewers. , Gavin Newsom right now is the Democrat's top contender to be running against JD Vance in the next presidential election cycle. I.

Malcolm Collins: so this, this ends up coming so bad because people are, are sharing these photos of Gavin Newsom again. Oh, you showed me one. Yeah. And Gavin Newsom. Looks like a bully. Like if you look at these, not like a bully, but like your standard rich bully kid.

Like if physio fmy as anything, he looks like a bully. And if you look at he looks American psycho. Yeah, he looks like an he. He and he acts like it, like even today. So if you could, Gavin Newsom, acts like Patrick Bateman from America Cycle. Like his whole thing feels so constructed. He saw Trump doing well.

By trolling people. And so then he goes and tries to troll people. If you look at his political rear up this, [00:02:00] he's just been like a chameleon. Copying and copying and copying whatever he sees somebody else doing.

Speaker: There is an idea of a Patrick Bateman, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me only an entity, something illusory.

And though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense, our lifestyles are probably comparable. I simply am not there.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think Patrick Bateman is a much better name for him than no Scum, which is Trump's but Trump by the way. Got that. And I'll play a video of, of him admitting this, but he said that some kids called him this in seventh grade and it hurt his feelings.

Speaker 2: I have my kids' friends. Call him my kids' new scum that I get 'cause I was called that in seventh grade,

Malcolm Collins: oh. And so Trump picked upon it. Oh God. Remember having his feelings hurt for something so effing stupid from the seventh grade. Oh, good heavens.[00:03:00]

The progressives like, Trump can sniff out weakness like a hound dog or something. And I'm like, yeah, I guess.

Here's another fun early picture of the two where Gavin Newsom, uh, after high school, got money from the Gettys to buy a vineyard in Napa. And, uh, JD Vance went to join the military because, you know, of course, poor family, I.

Malcolm Collins: But this guy's going up against JD vs. And JD Vance, you look at him for the aga Me and I go, this guy looks like a guy who played Magic, the Gathering. And believe it or not, he was actually a very big fan and still a big fan of Magic, the Gathering.

So that's what he looks like. And I think that we saw this and we pointed this out in the last election cycle was the left because it is now the culture of the urban monoculture, the dominant culture in society and now is attempting to impose those urban monocultural values has become the party of the bully.

And they use this in their speech. I mean the right, because we are not the dominant culture. We intrinsically are weird. That's how weirdness is defined. It's by distance from what is seen as culturally normal.

Simone Collins (2): Absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: [00:04:00] And so you're weird if you're an Orthodox Jew, you're weird. If you're an Evangelical Christian, you're weird.

If you are JD Vance and a fat kid who plays magic the gathering and does. Nerdy socially awkward things. Like in one of the pictures, they have him like standing in a bathroom with like two women, you know, like they're, they're they're nerdy kids goofing off and that you're like, Ooh, how could you do that?

Like, what, what do you have no fun. Like, what were you, were you the Gavin Newsom of your high school? Right? Like, and I wanna point, point out here, so one. When the Progressive did this last time, the the scene from revenge of the Nerds. 'cause that's exactly what they are. They've, they've just, oh my gosh.

And bullies.

Democrats and the Harris campaign now deploying a new adjective to blast the Republican ticket. Some of what he and his running mate are saying, well, it's just plain weird. Get those nerds! I mean, on the other side, they're just weird. Nerds! It's not just a, a, a, a [00:05:00] weird style that he brings. Nerds! Nerds!

Nerds! Nerds! Where are they? I think they're talking about us. No way. Oh no! Ah! Ah! Ah

Malcolm Collins: And I think that everybody, and this is great. I mean, I hope Gavin Newsom wins and does this in the next thing. He's gonna look like a bully.

Simone Collins: He already, you hope he wins the primary? You mean for the Oh yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He's gonna try to use Trump-like tactics against. The sweet and practical JD Vance, who, who doesn't do this in the same way, he only, well, again, when

Simone Collins: you look at pictures of them too, the, the other differentiator is clearly one's coming from money and clearly one's not.

Oh, one is representative of most Americans and one is not, and it's super easy to tell.

Malcolm Collins: This is what really gets me as well, is, is, is Gavin Newsom has gone with this whole, I wasn't a rich kid thing, so I'll get to what he says in regards to that. What, how if you know JD Vance, JD Vance grew up in actual poverty [00:06:00] there's like the scene where his grandma was gonna set their grandpa on fire for coming home late and the somebody had to hide the matches or something.

We,

Simone Collins: Memaw

Malcolm Collins: Memaw, Memaw the hardcore person. You know, he, he grew up in actual. You know, Appalachian region poverty. Yeah. And he was

Simone Collins: raised by his memaw because his mother was dealing with really intense drug addiction. Like, again, this is not the story

Malcolm Collins: of, and then in the meantime, when this guy was fat and being picked on and playing nerdy games.

Gavin Newsom. This is what he has to say about his childhood. Okay. Spoken out about feeling like an outsider at times due to his learning disability. He has dyslexia. Oh, his dys. I have dyslexia. Not an issue. It's not a real learning disability, it's a learning inconvenience. Mm-hmm. And the instability from the divorce.

Mm. But he also benefited from a network of wealthy San Francisco families, so, oh, let's. Let's, let's talk about this, this poor, struggling, divorced family. [00:07:00] By the way, my, my parents got divorced when I was a kid. It's it's non-issue. Yes, Newsom's family had deep ties to the Getty Oil fortune, but it wasn't directly personal wealth for young Gavin.

More like access to elite circles and opportunities through his father's role. William Newso was a close friend and financial advisor to the billionaire Gordon Getty, son of Oil Tycoon j Paul Getty, managing the Getty Family Trust, which was worth billions of dollars. His dad managed a billions of dollar trust just 'cause he was friends with a guy.

Simone Collins (2): Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Gavin attended high school, was one of the Getty's sons. Billy and the families were intertwined. Gordon even helped fund some of nuisances early business ventures later in life, like his. Clump Jack Wine Shop in 1992. However, Newsom pushed back on portrayals of his childhood as privilege, emphasizing that his mother struggled financially post divorce.

Yeah, but what about your father? What? No, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. What about, what about your father buddy who was running the multi-billion dollar hedge fund? In the eighties, that's a lot more money back [00:08:00] then. Mm. You were ne you never financially struggled. And this sort of stolen valor, when you're contrasting it with somebody like JD Vance.

And you're contrasting it with this guy who looks like a bully and will show that he still acts like a bully. Like he still has this inclination. He bullied Trump before Trump ever did anything to bully him or his side which we'll get into as well. His net worth today is 20 to $25 million which almost entirely comes from businesses at the Getty Family funded for him.

Ah, must be nice. Yeah, must be nice. But no, no, I, I think that this is something that we need to come back to regularly when we're, we're framing this. Oh, and I'll note here that people started calling him because he is, he's added this to his trolling, and we'll go over some of his trolling. This idea that he's Christopher Columbus because he's, he redraws maps so much.

This, this has to do with his, oh, you

Simone Collins: mean like California redistricting kind of map withdrawing Yeah. He, to

Malcolm Collins: gerrymandered California, even though California's already pretty [00:09:00] gerrymandered. By the way, if you look at gerrymandering, Gerry, have you, have you created a federal law against gerrymandering?

The Democrats would fight against it like crazy because Democrat gerrymandering, on average. Helps Democrats and not Republicans. Mm-hmm.

So I decided to check to see if this was still true. And it looks like these days it's about 50 50 in terms of who benefits from gerrymandering. , Maybe leaning Republican, but that's probably because most newspaper publications that report on this are democrat leaning.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, yes, Republicans are attempting to gerrymandering Texas, but it wouldn't even, even out the existing gerrymandering. But he's like threatening gerrymandering in California, more gerrymandering against Texas.

And he's doing this whole Christopher Columbus thing, which is funny because he advocated for the taking down not, not Democrats. He himself advocated for the taking down of Christopher Columbus statues in, in 2020, so, mm-hmm. Okay. Like, just forgetting any, any form of continuity here. You know, he is a face stealer.

Just whatever he sees doing well, he's gonna, he's gonna copy and [00:10:00] imitate.

B. Before I go further in this one I found funny. Here are the two's family photos, , next to each other. One of these guys is considered a white nationalist and the other one isn't. Would you ever guess which one it is? From these family photos, I.

Malcolm Collins: Before I get into some of the failures and controversies associated with him, you grew up with this guy, right? Like,

Simone Collins: yeah. The really funny thing is, I, I was not politically involved as a kid, and yet I have this deep, entrenched understanding of Gavin Newsom on as a like.

Extremely savvy slash slimy, or at least like very tactical political player who was always thinking about himself and how to look the right way. And there were these political cartoons that ran in the San Francisco Chronicle that always depicted him a certain way and drew him this really certain way that was just, he was just always depicted as being so slick.

And it's [00:11:00] crazy to see just. That throughout my lifetime, nothing has changed. I mean, the, the, you've been

Malcolm Collins: haunted by this slick face stealing Patrick Bateman.

Simone Collins: Yes. Yeah. Like the it was, oh, the, the comic was called bad reporter. I'll try to find some images of it I can share with you. And it, the long game is, I respect the long game.

I mean, he's been going for it kind of how, like Pete Buttigieg had the same like sort of career long game approach. Of, you know, first I'm gonna serve in the military and then I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna do that. Gavin Newsom has been doing it, but just within the realm of politics for such a long time.

I feel though, like he's, he's making some kind of breakthrough right now, leveraging the fact that Trump won, using this podcast he launched. He's getting traction in a way he's never gotten traction before, outside the realm of just San Francisco and then just California.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, I, I, I [00:12:00] agree that this is working for him in a way.

And I'll note here when I'm talking about him making fun of Trump, before Trump ever did him. You go back to Trump's first run when all the Democrats. He acted like he was a joke. And you have Gavin Newin tweet tweeting things like Donald Trump. This lu, let's get back to the issues. Like just joking proceeds to take time.

Giving his, his, his rating of an actor on a comedy show. So he sort of mocking Trump as a, as a distraction back here. And they were back in 2016 egged on if Donald Trump can't stand up to Billy Bush, how can he ever handle the pressure of the Oval Office? And I and I, and then in a picture of him next to Donald Trump, Jr.

He says. Tough choice. One now leads the world's fourth largest economy. The other sells phones. You know, trying to just from the very beginning, he can't be like, oh, I, I am only just now taking the low road. He took the low road from the beginning, and I'll note here. And we contrast Gavin Newsom with other times when people have decided to make fun of Trump., Trump is [00:13:00] motivated by this stuff. This is what keeps him going, right? You're, you, you are giving him fuel. You are not causing him to misstep.

Donald Trump is here tonight. Just recently, in an episode of Celebrity Apprentice, the men's cooking team, , Did not impress the judges and there was a lot of blame to go around, but you, Mr. Trump, recognized that the real problem was a lack of leadership. And so,

you fired Gary Busey.

Say what you will about it. Not funny. Bigly not funny. Oh, I'll get you a birth certificate, Obama. We'll see who's laughing then. I'm not a loser. It's okay, Trump. They probably already forgot about the jokes. Let's just see what's on the teletype. Donald Trump, humiliated by the leader of the free world tonight at [00:14:00] the White House correspondent's dinner. Yes, Wolf, it was very clear who was the President of the United States and who was the buffoon.

AHHHHHHHHHH! NGYAHHH! Welcome 7 coverage of the utter humiliation of Donald Trump. Say what you will about, uh, Mr. Trump, he certainly would bring some change to the White House. Let's see what we've got up there. We will again.

Malcolm Collins: But this is a guy who's, who's doing all this, like, who's like, oh, I run the fourth largest economy.

California is bleeding people right now. Just tons and tons of people are, are, are leaving the state. I think I was looking at over a million people since he took office have left the state which is [00:15:00] insane. People do not want to be in the area that you're running.

Simone Collins: They're flee.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And he also lit the state on fire, which was pretty crazy that somebody did that.

You remember, I mean,

Simone Collins: aside from the literal fires or just like you're referring to fires. I'm joking. The literal fires.

Malcolm Collins: So. In 2021, he claimed that 35 priority projects from a 2019 executive order treating 90,000 acres of land. The problem is only 11,000 or 13,000 were actually treated, so he lied by 690%.

And he did this through cutting $150 million from Cal Fire's mitigation budget that year, despite them having a surplus. And so you can be like, oh, well he was doing that to save taxpayer money. And it's like, oh no, let's see where he was sending that money. Okay. Instead, yeah, to task force to study reparations for black Californians, including historical research and recommendations for compensation that they spent $12 million on.

Research for [00:16:00] reparations that obviously aren't gonna happen. Just

Simone Collins: research for, oh, oh gosh.

Malcolm Collins: He gave $1.48 million to his wife's nonprofit selling gender equity curriculums to schools. Massive spending on homeless programs with 24 to $37 billion on his homeless programs. But, oh, what did those programs spend the money on?

Local COC boards, which coordinate federal and state homeless funds. EEG $683 million had dedicated racial equity committees to analyze disparities and prioritize services for underrepresented groups like black Californians. Who made up Sacramento, COC for instance, removed. Its committed, its committee and scrubbed terms like racial equity.

I don't understand this, it's federal. Oh, they had to remove all that due. The anti DEI rules no specifics are tied to it, but it's estimated that 24 to 37 billion in state homeless funding have gone to this sort of stuff. Yeah, the total net that left is 1,000,040 2000. [00:17:00] Although some sources show around 800,000 gosh. Yeah, but I can hear pull up. I thought that this was, was interesting because the progressives are sort of freaking out about this and I thought that this meme was good by Paul F. Thomas and he goes, quote, I'm sick of these purity tests.

'cause a lot of progressives, they're like, oh, he is not progressive enough. No candidate is perfect. Newsom may not care about homeless people or trans people, but he's the only one hiring social media posters to ask chat GPT to talk like Trump. This is the kind of social media posting we need right now.

Or don't you care about democracy? Oh boy. But that is like basically what he's doing, right? His social media interns to talk like, and that's the thing about this is with news system, it comes off as so inauthentic because we all know that. When Trump account tweets something, it's not a social media manager.

It is Trump on the, it's,

Simone Collins: it's Trump Kofi Fi. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: You know that Gavin Newsom isn't tweeting any of this. It's some, the social media [00:18:00] intern who's been given direction that, that our analytics show that this works. This is no different than like the Coca-Cola account when it gets on like a streak or something like that.

And then you accidentally, like Coca-Cola, i'd also note he is a, so let's go into some of the, the individuals trolling he's done. Yeah. And why you sort of need to troll in this information economy. So, Newsom's press office tweet, and it in all caps. And I will say funny, apparently Trump has stopped tweeting in all caps as much since Newsom started doing it.

Oh, no. Which is, I, I don't care one way or the other. Quote all caps, by the way. Not even just, sorry, not even JD quote, just dance in quote Vance. Wait. Is, is this his insult to JD Vance?

Simone Collins: Seriously,

Malcolm Collins: JD Just Dance Vance. That sounds like an a, a, an affectionate nickname.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Also, where's the relevance?

Malcolm Collins: [00:19:00] Why don't you ask AI where the relevance is?

Surely he thinks something about that is funny just to, fans can save Trump from the disastrous maps war. He has started. What you guys, as I pointed out, the Democrats do more gerrymandering than Republicans. But okay, not even his eyeliner looks as pretty as California map lines. Ooh, wow. Preston for gender norms there buddy.

I mean, I get it. So he's making fun of JD Vance for, I guess reportedly wearing eyeliner that doesn't that, that make him look heteronormative. What's

Simone Collins: even worse? Is that the nickname's not tied to anything from Vance's personal history, but rather is a satirical play on his initials and the popular video game series.

Just Dance. It has nothing to do with JD Vance's actions or history. And then Trump. Trump has, has the, the going back to seventh grade, the game grade. Yeah. To find a seventh grade bully name. And I, I, no, I love

Malcolm Collins: this. It's like [00:20:00] he, he comes at them with like a whiffle bat, you know, like it's smacking Janie Vance.

And Trump just walks by with like a shive and like stabs the guy and then walks on. Remember that traumatic

Simone Collins: experience in the seventh grade? Well, I got something special for you. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He's like, remember that? That experience you said still traumatizes you to this day.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Remember used to call, you remember what used to cry about at three in the morning?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That is. I just, sorry. I just love that, that difference in approach. Yeah. He doesn't get it. He doesn't get it. He is like coming out here like, he goes on, he will fail as he always does. Sad, exclamation. Mark and I, the peacetime governor. Our Amer our nation's favorite will save America once again.

Many are calling me Gavin, Christopher Columbus Newsom because of the maps. Thank you for your attention to this matter. GC N So he, he made up this nickname for himself, then wrote because of the maps exclamation mark, trying to write in a [00:21:00] Trump style. I love the adding sad with an exclamation mark to make it more Trump style.

He's literally just

Simone Collins: like he's appropriating. Not only Christopher Columbus after apparently he advocated for the removal of Christopher Columbus statues, but is appropriating Trump's language. That is so sad.

Malcolm Collins: It is showing Trump invented something that appears to work for me too, so I guess I'll use it.

I mean obviously he's claiming this is all satirical, but nothing about it is actually satirical. It's all stuff. No, when you

Simone Collins: copy something, like maybe if it were only all caps stuff, I'm, I'm trying to think of like a way that he could have done this that wasn't extra cringey in a not good way.

Malcolm Collins: So, a fun part of this by the way, is, this political argument. Okay. Which Bridget what, what's her name? Bridget Fe, where I also got the Patrick Bateman idea from. I, I, she's got a great channel, very similar to ours.

Simone Collins: Oh, who we met at Heretic Con that Bridget who met British Fe. I guess we did. She's the [00:22:00] one who introduced our talk.

Yeah, she was the mc.

Malcolm Collins: She on YouTube channel where she comments on yours. I remember, I remember thinking she was so nice at Heretic Con, but I didn't watch her channel yet, and now she's just like, oh yeah, I'm like a low key influencer, but like not that big. She was huge and she still,

Simone Collins (2): so,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. You know, she's about twice as big as us.

Yeah, she's, no, we should reach right out. She was very delightful woman. I in person, by the way, this is me saying like, I met her. I didn't know she was famous at the time when I met her. Now that I'm putting the two people together, I'm like, oh, that was the same person. She was very nice, very delightful, very warm.

Not one of those like, oh, you meet, you know, so and so. Not even

Simone Collins: remotely pretentious. Just super cool.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. But

Simone Collins: also Malcolm is face blind for, for reference. This is why he can meet someone at a conference and have absolutely no idea. It's an influencer whose content he's been consuming.

Malcolm Collins: So she, I didn't watch your channel yet back then. On Politico she said that this article Deuced [00:23:00] Gavin Newsom and it was really gross. But I'll just do a quote from the article here so you can get a idea of how much, because all of the dims are, they love that he's doing this because they think that the Republicans are freaking out that he's doing this instead of just looking at them as like a.

Like, yeah, this is really sad. But they think that they're scoring wins. Newsom has entered the digital dojo and he's performing the sort of mimetic jiujitsu that's scaring Republican white belts, but. Unused to actual competition. Smith tells Politico for too long, Democrats have been poised up in the parking lot too, afraid of getting it wrong to throw a jab.

This should energize folks to get into the octagon. And, and then they send this to Trump to ask for comment. He sends back a meme. Of course, the, the, the first all meme, not even context that was just the meme of the, the one guy being like something, something, something. Then the mad men, like, I don't even know who you are.

Response. Maybe people have pointed out [00:24:00] that this may have been a, a bad meme to use in this instance because in the original context of the show, he was trying to hide that he did, knew who he was and he was hiding his insecurity. But I really don't think, I, I, I do not think there is. Any mainstream Republican who wouldn't love Gavin Newsom to be our competitor in the next election cycle he would be so easy for JD to beat

Simone Collins: well, especially when you look at his track record with California and where California is now.

He has to still answer for that, plus the fact that his background is so not relatable to the average person that he came from. So much privilege. He's not a man of the people. I mean, yes, George Bush, for example, came from an extremely privileged, you can even argue, aristocratic family. Mm-hmm. But he was folksy and not home and, and fun.

And Gavin Newsom is, is, he tries to be that, but you, you know, it's not genuine. And authenticity is like the top thing. That especially younger voters care about, so,

Malcolm Collins: [00:25:00] yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No, just to remind

Malcolm Collins: you, I was talking to a political reporter recently and I, the democrats struggle so much with authenticity and I think Gavin Newsom uniquely struggles, and we were talking about who could run instead of JD Vance on the right.

And I threw out there. I was like, well, she said RFK, and I was like, yeah, RFK would be great. The bear story. Wonderful. You. You run into it, you see roadkill bear and you decide you're gonna eat it. And then you realize that you can't get it to your fridge in time. So you leave it in a bike lane to create a story about a bear being struck by a bike in a controversial bike lane that had been put up and that goes by, that's f-ing, hilarious.

I would never not vote for somebody who's that funny. And that down home that they see roadkill in their first thought is.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And, and get away with it for so many years. Like, never reveal it, keep your mouth shut until you know someone's gonna leak it. And then like, okay, that's the main

Malcolm Collins: character energy right there.

So I love that. Or Joe Rogan would be great. I said Joe Rogan would be great. Totally.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But, but then she was like, well what about Rubio? And I was like, Rubio would be [00:26:00] a great Democratic candidate. Yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Well, no, he's that

Malcolm Collins: old

Simone Collins: type of candidate that like Yeah. Tries to be a politician who doesn't, you know, has a clean record.

Isn't a character really. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing there to play with. You have to be character now. I mean, the thing though is that Gavin Newsom, if he were to lean into his villain, energy, I think could be, you know, more interesting like dark Biden. If that became a concept, like if, if that was tacked onto someone with a little more youth and agency, it would be a lot of fun or dark Brandon and.

If, if Gavin Newsom instead was like, yeah, I am the American psycho, I am the, you know, the, the mercenary sociopath is gonna do what it takes to make our country win. Yeah. People would like that. That could be interesting. And I mean, and he's, that is him, that's also authentic. Well, I don't, not [00:27:00] America win for him, but make me win.

But still, I feel like people could get behind that. Yeah. What he is doing now isn't gonna sell laia authenticity.

Malcolm Collins: I, I mean, he's got hardcore American psycho energy, like,

Simone Collins: yeah. So own it, you know, like, make that your whole look.

Malcolm Collins: Here are some more tweets you can get an idea of, of what it looks like when he tries to do this. And I, it really is quite cringey compared to what Trump does, right? Wow. All caps. This is all, all caps. The maps, the best maps ever made will soon pass in the greatest legislature everywhere in the world, not just America. People are already screaming, mama, mama. And I say, no, I am your daddy.

Three exclamation marks. Thank you. USA silly exclamation marks. No, that's gross.

Simone Collins: No. No, no, no, no, no. What he should do is with his podcast, it should be a video podcast. If it's not, he should have like sponsorship with those, all those face mask companies and [00:28:00] just show his like morning routine. But like all shot, American psycho style, that would be great.

Just like really, I don't know, just over the top. Self owning Trump self owns all the time. Jay, Jan, you know, retweets South Park episode stuff and you know, they know how to laugh.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. When I point out that he isn't afraid of, you know, revealing his own sort of like we, we recorded an episode during, when he goes live on Trump's religious beliefs.

And in that thing where everybody always is like, you know, Trump said. You know, he did. He's never asked God for forgiveness because he doesn't have you know, anything to ask forgiveness for. It's actually a bit more nuanced to that when you see his full take. He said that he thought it was more important that he tried to solve his mistakes himself.

Rather than externalize it is essentially the way he framed it. Yeah. And he said after that he goes, and I know that this [00:29:00] isn't the answer I'm supposed to give. He's like, I, I know that I can get in trouble for saying this and I should just be saying, but that's him being honest

Simone Collins: and isn't that great.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Or recently when he is like talking about getting into heaven, right. You know, he's like, well, if I could save 7,000 people a day, I think I get into heaven because, you know, people out there are saying, I'm not high on that list, and he's out there saying this about himself.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I do just love the concept of making it right.

I mean, asking God for forgiveness is messed up for me twofold. One, it makes you think you can be absolved of your flaws without fixing the problem. But two, who has the gumption to believe that God is personally offended by you messing up God who made you? Yeah, that's like, no, he's not that immature man.

Like he's got bigger things to worry about than the fact that you slept with someone outside of the bonds of marriage or something. Right? So, [00:30:00]

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I'm, I'm with Trump on that one. I like that better.

Malcolm Collins: Like, I gotta work on this myself. I, I, I, yeah. I gotta make it

Simone Collins: right. If you, if you, if you made the mess, clean up the mess.

You know, don't, don't say I'm sorry. That's so Well, I did,

Malcolm Collins: I did pray after I spilled the milk. Yeah. So, no, but I, I think that, that what we're seeing here, and the reason I mentioned that is Trump is very open about. Things that, that, that, that lead to a degree of vulnerability. Mm-hmm. Just not admitting mistakes.

And in our religion episode, we'll explain why. He will admit mistakes to himself, but he doesn't like to admit them in a public stage. Yeah. Because there is a religious reason for this, for Trump. But yeah the, if, if you, if you wanna get another one from him here, Trump is imitating me. Instead of I, he's imitating Trump.

And then in response to a post about MSNBC's ratings, implying Trump toed down his all cap after nuisance parody, he did this job. Again, all of this is all caps. Tiny Hands is out here copying me, but without the stamina. Sad, and [00:31:00] certainly without the looks. Total beta Expert

Simone Collins (2): York.

Simone Collins: Tiny Hands. So he calls him SCU and Tiny Hands.

Malcolm Collins: No, this was what what's his face said about Trump? Trump.

Simone Collins: No. Trump's hands have been stolen. Everyone's watching his hands like crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Gavin Newsom wrote this about Trump. IE Gavin Newsom typed this to make fun of Trump while making fun of Trump. Gavin Newsom is calling Trump Tiny Hands. Okay. Or targeting Fox News.

He says, fox edits the tapes news must cancel their weekend, stinkers immediately through exclamation marks. Cancel the Fox News stinkers. Now exclamation mark, and he put that in quotes, trying to, I guess, start Fox News, stinkers as like an insult phrase that he wants people to use. Stinkers. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Ex mark. The, he, he later says, no personality, no talent. Very low [00:32:00] energy. Trump of course, responds. I, I love this as well. Proper capitalization, easy to read. Gavin Newcomb is way down in the polls. I will save California three exclamation marks.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, and then

Malcolm Collins: White House spokesman. Abigail Jackson's called it inauthentic, and it's just getting weird, which it kind of is.

It's getting to a point where I'm like a little uncomfortable that he's still doing this.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it was a little weird.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and I point out the type of person who Newsom is like at his core. Remember when he was imposing all of those COVID restrictions and he still goes to fancy dinners at places like the French Laundry where he and all his rich friends were holding parties which is a fancy restaurant.

So, so. He's allowed to host his parties. He's allowed to do what he wants. You have to obey the rules. Well, you know,

Simone Collins: yeah. He's one of the rich people. I, I just like, yeah. He probably grew up just thinking, well, of course. There's me and then there's [00:33:00] everyone else. I'm not, I'm naturally supposed to rule them,

Malcolm Collins: and then there's the peons that support me.

Yeah. Which is one of the really interesting things about Trump is he connects very well with average Americans without acting like he thinks he's better than them. Yeah. He

Simone Collins: never, and he never was one of them, and he never pretended to be one of them, but he very much is able to get on everyone's level.

I mean, it, it as is kind of evidenced by it. The constant rejection he has received from many of society's elite. So yeah, it was almost an endorsement, if anything, in

Malcolm Collins: terms of how good is this guy at managing things. So, during the Pandemic California's employment development department, under ance administration, distributed $11.4 billion

Simone Collins (2): in

Malcolm Collins: fraudulent unemployment claims, including, including UL income to inmates.

Oh, they were giving unemployment claims to inmates. And note here 19 billion a cylinder investigation. [00:34:00]

Simone Collins (2): That's a lot What legitimate.

Malcolm Collins: Claims ended up with month long delays. The state ended up owing 23 billion in federal debt over this mismanagement. Oh my gosh. In terms of like, the rich guys get whatever they want, the poor bros have to do whatever.

So Newsom signed a 2023 law, which I'm sure you guys have all heard about. Raising fast food minimum wages to $20 an hour, effective April, 2024. We might do an episode on the impact of that. But it included an exception for bakeries producing bread on site. This specifically was a big deal for the Panera Bread franchises owned by donor, Greg Flynn.

Oh, who tributed $163,000 to Newsom's campaign.

Simone Collins: How convenient. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Do some accepted donations from pg and e. This company in California that keeps blowing stuff up like people's houses and neighborhoods and causing wildfires. Convicted in wildfires like campfire killing [00:35:00] 85, then supported legislation creating a $21 billion wildlife fund that shifted liability to rate payers avoiding billions in fees for the utility company.

Oh gosh.

Simone Collins: That is rough.

Malcolm Collins: And then of course there's the homeless situation in California right now.

Simone Collins: Well, and there's just the fact that it's, it's hostile to businesses. Bed Bath and Beyond is opening over, what, 200 new locations in the United States? Yeah. It's like a home good store. And they're not, conspicuously not opening anything in California because it is so hostile to, and.

Malcolm Collins: To like chastise them. Yeah. And be like, Hey, it's not worse here. And it's been like we can all see the videotapes of people being like pulled outta their car and like, mainstream on LA a or SF or, well, and

Simone Collins: the, the rampant shoplifting, all these other issues for, for businesses in California. '

Malcolm Collins: cause they refuse to elect I'm sorry.

Not elect. They refuse to arrest minorities. You know, they're like, oh, oh, we could get in trouble if we do that. I mean, if they're [00:36:00] stealing it, they must need it. You know, I, I, I am very interested in zero A. His name is trying to do

Simone Collins: Zhan Ani.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. A state run b grocery store in d dc in DI wouldn't know where is it?

Manhattan. You know, such a bad idea, by the way. Well, everyone knows it's

Simone Collins: not gonna work. Grocery stores make such a little margin. They make like

Malcolm Collins: 0.6% margin. Like that's the most you could save is 0.60 cents per dollar. By doing it, what he wants to do. But of course it's gonna be less because either they need to actually do security or they're just gonna bleed money through a shrinkage.

Simone Collins: I don't even wanna think about it. It's, but in

Malcolm Collins: terms of the modern information economy, the reason you need to and, and people like him are needing to troll is news media doesn't matter anymore. When we get news articles, they're just sort of like icing on the cake for us right now. Right. What matters is social media.

Social media is where the truth is determined and where what people believe is determined. And it's where what AI thinks is determined often because news, news, media is [00:37:00] often paywall. So, when you, when you go out there and you say, just like normal facts in the news media is like, oh, this is really great.

Let's, let's talk about this. Nobody, nobody sees it. But when you go out there and you anger people or you appeal to people emotionally, they'll share it. And that's what trolling does, right? Like, they feel like they're getting one over on their enemy. I think that that's who's really sharing these or people making fun of him for doing this because he's being cringe and that gets him in front of more people.

Yeah, that's why you have to do it. You, you have to do it.

Simone Collins: Well. We'll see how the weather vane man does in the coming years. I would be delighted if, if he, if he ran, I would honestly be delighted if he developed the balls to have some authenticity and leaned into his villain aesthetic, because that would be even more fun.

Like I, I would love a formidable. Candidate, and I don't really see, I mean, a [00:38:00] OC perhaps but I, I, I don't see that really happening. You know, I mean, we're moving in a direction of greater socialism, so we're gonna see it regardless.

Malcolm Collins: I, I think a OC is the top candidate right now.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I'm, I'm ready. I, I want, I want something interesting.

At least you'd be

Malcolm Collins: interesting.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I, I don't, I don't want to compete against her. I would much rather compete against Newsom than A-O-C-A-O-C is a much stronger candidate.

Simone Collins: Yeah. She has less dirt, like she's just, has had, had less of a career. And track record that shows repeated serious damage done to the areas under, you know, for which she's responsible

Malcolm Collins: are gonna try to run another woman of color for a while.

Who is? 'cause they actually believe that's why they lost.

Simone Collins: Oh, no, no. I hope not. Think they do. I don't think so. Even their

Malcolm Collins: commentary, they're like, oh, America's just not ready for a woman of color yet.

Simone Collins: Aw. No. I remember [00:39:00] them trying to do that with Hillary being like, well, they just didn't vote for her because she was a woman.

But that's I

Malcolm Collins: that historically who they should be running is John Stewart.

Simone Collins: Oh, John Stewart versus Joe Rogan. Let's go. Let's go. Who do you vote for, right? Yeah. JD Vance. Joe Rogan, vice President.

Malcolm Collins: I love that. Can we get that please? Can we please? Yeah. Okay. I mean, I, I, I've always said if I was running for president and I could choose anyone for VP right now mm-hmm.

I'd be choosing mess. Senator Trey Parker.

Simone Collins (2): Oh,

Malcolm Collins: I think they would be to die for.

Simone Collins: They would never want to though. They have, I think they have too much fun laughing at the world and, and they don't wanna be saddled, like they know better than to be saddled with the responsibility of running the United States.

You know, they're like, I'm not that dumb. So I'd

Malcolm Collins: be like, but you can fix things.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, they would also look at the system and how broken it is and be like, yeah, [00:40:00] but really I think they'd be great, but I also think they're too savvy for that. You gotta be a certain, you have to be a certain flavor of dumb to enter politics.

And we say this as people who are very interested in being more politically involved. But that's, you know. Not a testament to our intelligence and self preservation. So yeah, there's that.

Simone Collins (2): Alright. All right.

Simone Collins: I'm gonna get toasty for a BA therapy. Let's what, what doing

Simone Collins (2): here tonight?

Simone Collins: I'm making rice, but I'm also making flatbread, so.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, you could just reha some reang, I guess.

Simone Collins: If I have it I think I have some mango curry. Would you like some of that

Malcolm Collins: mango curry works fine for me. Put in a few peppers. Okay. Are you sure? I

Simone Collins: think I made it spicy. Oh, well

Malcolm Collins: let's, no, if it's spicy, then don't. And I also was going to put in some almonds, but I'll do that after it's cooked.

Simone Collins: Oh, your sliced almonds smart. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll make sure that I have some out. I love you. Love you too.

Malcolm Collins: That's Simone. Thank you for not being Gavin Newsom.

Simone Collins: Back at you, but you still have amazing [00:41:00] hair, so thanks for that. Are you saying he

Malcolm Collins: has amazing hair? He does have good hair.

Simone Collins: His hair is, is like a thing in like any parody of him.

It's like a helmet of curated, you know? But you, you have unintentionally good hair. So

Malcolm Collins: you think, you think I'd beat him on authenticity? I don't come off like the old politicians. Yeah,

Simone Collins: you're, you're so authentic. It hurts and I love it.

Malcolm Collins: All right, love you, Simon.

Speaker 4: Shoot the barrel. Shoot the barrels. Yeah. Bye. Got it.

You stupid.