Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

In this episode, we explore the surprising decline of religiosity in Iran, a country known for its religious theocratic state. Only 30.3% of Iranians now believe in life after death, with even fewer adhering to organized religion. We delve into the reasons behind this rapid deconversion, including the impact of state-enforced religion, the role of the internet, and shifts in cultural and family dynamics. We also examine Iran's plummeting fertility rates and the government's failed attempts to reverse this trend with various pronatalist policies. Join us as we discuss the broader implications of these changes for Iran and how they serve as a cautionary tale for other nations.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Life after death, only 30. 3 percent of people in Iran believe in life after death.. Heaven and hell, 30. 1%. When they asked religion, so to give you an idea of how much disgust they have for organized religion in the country, even if they identify as a Muslim, only 27.

8 percent believe in religion. More broadly. So, like, less than the percent that are Shia, even the state religion, enforcing There are

Simone Collins: people who answered on this survey, I am a Shia Muslim. I don't believe in religion. That happen?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Maybe because they consider themselves ethnically Shia Muslim, or maybe Yeah, that makes sense.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. They

Malcolm Collins: just have so much Which I guess goes to

Simone Collins: show, like, the extent to which making the religion the rule Kills the religion.

Malcolm Collins: an overwhelming majority, 90 percent describe themselves as hailing from religious families.

So this happened within a generation. They lost like when you're like, how quickly can we really lose kids that quickly isn't like a, oh, you do this and they control the [00:01:00] country for a few generations. You went from 90 percent coming from a religious family to 27. 8 percent saying that they identify as religious

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today's episode. We're going to be talking about two things. One is how Iran has rapidly been losing its rate of religiosity, mass deconversions We're talking like 40, only 40 percent of Iran's population identifies as Muslim now. Oh my gosh. Okay.

So, and this is in a religious theocratic state, then we're going to be talking about their crashing fertility rates. Quite all of the efforts that they've been trying to do to reverse this. Okay. And I want to couch all of this in this idea that people have that if only their religious group controlled the government of the country that they were in, That they would be able to do more to keep their religion alive and this in the United States.

This is an instinct. [00:02:00] I hear so frequently from Catholics and I point out that Catholic majority countries have some of the lowest fertility rates in the world. They have some of the quickest deconversion rates in the world. And they're like, well, they're not enforcing their rules strictly enough. If they enforce them even more strictly, it would fix these problems.

And I'm like, well, great counter example is Iran. So Iran is enforcing them more strictly than any of the Catholic countries. And it appears to have an increased level and an increased rate of deconversion because of this. In fact, I will point out That it's not just, they're leaving Islam. Fewer people in Iran believe in God than in the United States.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. Okay, so they're not just converting out of the hard culture. They are just Nothing matters anymore. Nihilism.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, and this is, this is, this is concentrated among younger populations as well, so it's only going to increase. And the problem here, and [00:03:00] people get through your head, if you take control of a government and try to force people to follow the tenets of your faith, it causes mass deconverts.

This is the core reason, this inclination to do this by Catholics is the core reason. Why their culture is completely falling apart right now in terms of the areas where it has power, right? Do not try to force your pornography bans. Do not try to force your bans on whatever, like, all of these weird, like, religious bans and everything like that.

And it's like, oh, if we can just ban all of this stuff, we can just ban gay people from getting married, if we can ban you know, it's like, this, Actually causes mass de converts.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think forcing people, not the right thing, when, when, when leaving means death or social rejection, yes, but forcing it, leaving is catastrophic.

And Iran, if it's public,

Malcolm Collins: it can mean

Simone Collins: death. But you're just not following [00:04:00] the rules because there's a difference.

Malcolm Collins: What?

Simone Collins: There's a difference between deconversion and not following the rules.

Malcolm Collins: In Islam deconvert is considered like really, really bad. I'm pretty sure that you can, you're supposed to be killed if you're a deconvert by Sharia law.

It's not the same as being like a normal atheist or a normal non Muslim. I don't know. Why are people

Simone Collins: responding that they are no longer religious? Because

Malcolm Collins: that's how much they disrespect the space. The state we're going to go over. This is like 40, 000 people in this study. So, you know, not a small population sample either.

As a note here while it is not specifically illegal in Iran to deconvert the way Iranian law works is wherever something isn't specifically in the legal code, judges are allowed to refer to Sharia law. So it is functionally, both illegal and the death penalty to deconvert in Iran.

And I just think that what you're seeing here is a mass knowledge that, yeah, well, nobody really believes that anymore. And I think it's really easy to see why. And I want to get people in this [00:05:00] mindset before we go into the data, because it's going to be very data heavy. Okay. You're a kid, you grew up in a state, right?

Your parents don't feel the need to really in one, teach you how to resist people trying to deconvert you, teach you why your traditions are valuable, teach you why all of the restrictions of your traditions are valuable because the state does that, right? Like this is the thing that the state does.

This is the thing that your local mosque is going to do. This is the thing that you're, so then you get online because you have access to the internet. And you see all of these arguments against all of this, and all of this to you, it doesn't just feel silly, like, it feels bureaucratic to you. The reason why you wear the veil, the reason why you do the X, it's because it's the law of the government.

It's lost any sort of, like, religious magic. It is now just what you have to do. You don't not use porn because you [00:06:00] don't use porn. And that's a thing that you do for God and to be a good person. And you don't do it because it's the law. All right. And then when you're breaking that you're not breaking a religious rule, you're breaking a legal rule and it's much easier to start breaking.

Legal rules from a individual moral perspective than religious rules?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think it's a lot like the, that study that they did with parents and preschool pickup times where they thought, oh, it really sucks that parents aren't picking their kids up from preschool on time, so let's just charge an extra fee per minute that they're late.

Yes. kid. And then what happens? Suddenly everyone is super late picking up their kids because now it's not a moral, I'm a shitty person for picking up my kid late kind of thing. It's a, Oh, there's a fee. I'll just, and yeah, you're right, I think making it statutory, making it unromantic, making it less about your self image and your morality and who [00:07:00] you are as a person and more about these are the rules and these are the costs of breaking them ruins it.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So let's. Yeah. Yeah. And to give an idea of what this has had on their fertility rate, by the way, in 2022, Iran's deputy health minister warned that the country could fall into a quote unquote demographic, a black hole. It

Simone Collins: doesn't

Malcolm Collins: sound good. In 2024 projections indicated that Iran's population could potentially have by the end of the century with nearly half of the country classified as elderly by then.

Gosh, this is not good. Who's gonna be supporting them? They're gonna, they're gonna need to go full Logan's Run. Like, this is people who don't know Logan's Run is a world where they have to kill everyone after a certain age, because You cannot support a population where half of it is on social security.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. So this is from a piece, a really interesting piece because they really struggled to get an idea of what Iranians [00:08:00] actually believed because the government says 99. 5 percent of the population is Muslim. And they're like, that doesn't seem right. And you can't exactly knock door to door.

And so they developed this sophisticated system for actually getting really you know, good data on what people if I ran sought through a survey mechanism That ended up recruiting 40, 000 people over the age of 19 and they used a number of demographic variables to assure that they were collecting a representative sample of the country I don't want to go into all of that.

Just know that like They are doing that. In terms of the big thing that has changed. It's been the growth of Internet with 70 percent of adults in the country now using at least one social media platform. So ideas that are They're completely permissive in society here And another thing I note here is we want to talk about why and what I want to investigate here is why at the end Why in israel are people saying so strong to the face when iran they're leaving the face, you know, if you have two semi theocratic government [00:09:00] Why does Islam suck so much when compared to Judaism at retaining membership?

And it appears it sucks even more than Catholicism when it's in control. It appears that Muslims really only work when they're a minority population in an environment or an incredibly poor population, poorer than Iran. Do

Simone Collins: you think they would do better in As a small group within a hostile environment.

I mean, that's part of why we think maybe I do. Yeah. I mean, when you feel like there's something to fight for when you feel like there's some pride in you being you because it's not the default. It's the exception. It's what makes you exceptional and special.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, 100%. But I think that some religions are like built for the fight. And when you don't have the fight, they fall apart. Islam requires an enemy to work. It, I won't say it's kind of like Nazis. But like sometimes the government is set up. where it's an [00:10:00] ideology that really requires a consistent battle in fight to stay healthy.

And the version of Islam that they are practicing, it worked really well when it was fighting against the Shah, when it was fighting against, you know, it doesn't work well when they control everything and it's only fighting outsiders who most people see as like a more conceptual threat than real threat.

It's not like Iran has been seriously attacked by outsiders in a very, very long time. In fact, The government might do well by letting outsiders attack it and have a war there, instead of, you know. Well,

Simone Collins: shouldn't they be able to leverage what's happening geopolitically in the area to do that? I guess not, because then we're acting as the aggressor in all cases now.

The US

Malcolm Collins: are going to attack you for decades, half a century at this point? People are like, yeah, sure. Like, you've been telling us the U. S. is a great Satan forever. Like, it really does not feel like they care that much. And Israel has done a very good job. While it attacks Iran's nuclear scientists [00:11:00] regularly it doesn't do much to terrorize the average person to make them feel like Israel is really their existential enemy.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A great example of this is how religious Ireland was during the times of conflict, but after those were settled, how quickly religiosity began to drop pretty dramatically. So, I'm sorry for people who may not know for a long time, Ireland was basically a hot war between a Catholic and Protestant population. With the Catholics being the majority group that were being, In their mind, oppressed by a Protestant outsiders and a Protestant minority population.

So if you go back to 2006, 90% of Ireland identified as Catholic. , and now. , 2022, it's only 69%. , so you get a rapid drop and I have actually noticed this, that the forms of Catholicism that come out of a regions where they had consistent and persistent conflict with Protestants. Up until recently. Or typically [00:12:00] stronger. , then the forms of Catholicism, where the Catholics controlled everything. , this is generally Northern Europe, Catholicism versus Southern Europe Catholicism. And it's the same with forms of Protestantism. The forms of Protestantism, where they were in conflict with other religious groups and you needed to define yourself as Protestant against some alternative. ,

that's where you got stronger sort of channels of the Protestant tradition.

But again, this all seems intuitive to me as to why this would be the case. I mean, I'm just considering myself growing up. If I knew there was an ass give war between Protestants and Catholics in my area, I'm going to spend a lot of time figuring out what it means to be either a Catholic or a Protestant and invest in that. Eve.

I know that everyone in my area is just by default X. Well then if my teen rebellion phase, I'm going to rebel against X because that's just the authority. That's what everyone does.

And I will intergenerationally lose my faith really quickly.

[00:13:00] So in contrast with state propaganda that portray Iran as a Shia nation, only 32 percent explicitly identified as Shia. While 5 percent said they were Sunni Muslim, 3 percent Sufi Muslim, another 9 percent said they were atheists, along with 7 percent who prefer the label of spirituality, among other neglected religions.

8 percent said they were Zoroastrian, which we interpret as a reflection of Persian nationalism and a desire for an alternative to Islam rather than a strict adherence to the Zoroastrian faith. While 1. 5 percent said they were Christian. And some people know we consider Zoroastrianism as one of the true faiths.

I, I, I note here, like, this means that if you are looking at the atheist plus spiritualist plus zero Astrian faith there, it's almost as big as the Shia Muslim population.

Simone Collins: That is really crazy because you're, I always thought of Iran as Shia. That's

Malcolm Collins: crazy. Okay. Hold on, [00:14:00] it's bigger. Yeah, no, but actually if you include agnostics.

Let's see if I can do the math here. Yeah, it might be bigger than the Shiite population, which is crazy. Oh, oh, none?! None is huge! Sorry! Atheist is 8. 8 percent None is 22. 2%!

Simone Collins: Hohohohoho! Just, just

Malcolm Collins: none plus Atheist plus Agnostic is bigger than Shia.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: they, they

Simone Collins: are really losing God. Okay. That's, you think a lot of this is just a lack of hope for the future? It's hard for me to say, the only Iranian person I've met is that woman we met through Renaissance Weekend, who was super, like, Iran is great, I love Iran, I mean, she also was in the United States and not planning to go back to Iran, so I'm not exactly sure it was going on there.

Maybe she kind of came from an Iran that is gone now, but

Malcolm Collins: no, because those Iranians typically are like, not, I mean, they're not pro Iran in the way that you're thinking. So there's, like, modern Iranians who [00:15:00] are pro Iran, and I know this group because I have friends in this group, but I also have Persian friends.

Persians are the earlier immigrant group who we've joked about them in previous episodes. Culturally, they are very different from what you would think of as other Muslim populations. And they are a very secularized population. They are very consumerist, secularized, mercantile not like you typically would stereotype most Muslims.

And I think that Islam as a religion, You almost could argue it might have converted this region, but it was never really optimized for this cultural or ethnic group. And so as soon as they leave an environment that is you know, forcing it on them. They leave or or as soon as they have access to external technology, they leave the religion.

I just think that there isn't a strong harmony between the persian ethnicity and the islamic religion.

Speaker: Jahar, my friend, there are a lot of beautiful women out here today. Kareem, my friend, speak the truth. I do what I [00:16:00] can. Oh.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker: Right? Blip. Shabloimps.

Speaker 5: They don't look Persian. Sure they do.

Speaker 3: Just

Speaker 5: have to gel the hair,

Speaker 3: put on a silk shirt, some gold chains, and tons of cologne.

Persian. Si. Wow!

Malcolm Collins: I almost feel like Actually, like, Zoroastrianism. Like, Zoroastrianism seems to work for Persians. And I'm talking about, like, a harmony between a, a religious system and an ethnic group. The, the audaciousness of all the fire stuff, and all the, like, come on!

It's, it's very Let's get my gold curtain rods.

Speaker 6: All they want is to make the place really nice. We're going to put down some lovely blue carpet and gold curtain rods. I knew it! I knew it!

Malcolm Collins: We often argue that Trump is, is, is, is a Persian. He's a, he's a Persian soul that somehow got caught in a white guy's body. Persian

Simone Collins: [00:17:00] aesthetics. Yeah. He's trans, trans Persian.

Malcolm Collins: If I walked into his house and I, and you showed me, you're like, if you show me like, okay.

Wait, he walked through his

Simone Collins: house and you were like, What is the

Malcolm Collins: ethnicity of the person who owns this abode? No, not even that. I mean, I walked into a Trump house, right? Okay. And there was a Persian guy there and there was a white guy there. And the white guy said, this is my house. A guy who looked like Trump said, this is my house.

I actually start laughing. I'd assume it was a joke. I'd be like, you, you cannot be serious. This is obviously this guy's house. But anyway as I said, Trump is our first Persian president. I really,

Simone Collins: yeah, I, I love, I've never seen this. I've seen plenty of biographies of Trump. I've never seen any analyses of the Trump interior decorating aesthetic, which is really a thing.

You know, it's, it is a distinct thing. He has a sense of style. It's consistent. His choice of why he's

Malcolm Collins: Persian too. His why's act like Persian girls who I've seen before. Yeah, but where,

Simone Collins: so where did this aesthetic come [00:18:00] from? Because he. I would not be surprised. I would not be surprised. You know, like a sort of classic, a Kennedy American, he grew

Malcolm Collins: up in New York adjacent to the real estate industry.

And okay, how do I say this without coming off as so the real estate industry, when contrasted with other industries, attracts a lot of people who like the type of industries that attract, let's say, mercantile people like car sales.

Simone Collins: I'll put this differently. If you look, for example, at real estate reality TV shows, it is known for ostentatiousness.

It is known for the over the top brand designer outfits and spending. And I guess there's a high correlation you're trying to say between the most ostentatious way that someone could show their wealth. And Persian aesthetics and there just happens to, okay, that is not what I'm

Malcolm Collins: saying.

Simone Collins: I am saying

Malcolm Collins: that [00:19:00] Persians would disproportionately be in industries that are low tech, high mercantilism, like real estate, car sales, stuff like that.

That's generally what I see. Rug sales is something they're known for, like, persians seem to do really good at low tech mercantile industries. And that is the industry that Donald Trump cut his teeth in. That is the industry he was raised in. I would not be surprised if he had a lot of Persian or Farsi or whatever you want to say, formative friends in his life, where he developed his aesthetics in both the women that he chose, great

Simone Collins: dinner parties.

And was like, where'd you get this table? And they were like, okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: That is my read of where, because I cannot, like, genuinely it is baffling to me. Like, you're like, oh, boarding school. If I was invited to a friend's house and it looked like this, you'd be making fun of them for weeks.

So I went to an AI and I first put in.

Wealthy wasp interior design. And this is what it looked [00:20:00] like. And then I put in wealthy, Persian, interior design, and here's what it looked like. Like even look at the accents on the chairs and stuff like that. They are exactly coded to Trump's taste. And I'd say that for me, just the real sin. , Trump's interior decorating and how I know that he did not grow up. , coding to WASP-y culture is there are no random pictures of boats or cottages. Or horses or overly expensive model boats.

And by the way I am joking here. , aye. Aye. As little as I get the golden. Curtains that you see in Persian interior design. I also do not get the pictures of boats and horses and random cottages. , that you see in waspy interior design, it makes why, why are you doing that? Did you, did you. Live on this boat?

No, you didn't. W why boat is it just like the safe thing to have a picture of?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I wonder what [00:21:00] the houses he grew up in looked like as well, because I doubt that they looked like the houses that he paints now.

But anyway, it's interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But anyway, the point here I'm making is that I'm pretty sure, or I would be genuinely surprised if this wasn't directly picked up from Persian. Because like, if you look at Persian women, like, you know, I, I, I, obviously I have a lot, I've had a lot of, in college, Farsi friends.

Because it was like a common thing in St. Andrews. It was a big group. And anyway, they're very big in D. C. They have a pretty big presence there. And anyway, so, their women are hyper sexualized often in terms of like, when you see it on the reality TV shows and stuff like that, when you see a Persian woman, right, you know, a very New Jersey fight, I guess I'd say, but like a little higher class than that, which really looks like the women who Donald Trump goes after.

And attractive. I'm not going to lie. Like they're, they're an attractive group. They're definitely not a, an issue there. But I think many people would be like, how can you say that his women are [00:22:00] Persian in aesthetics and not European when they are European women? And I'm like, okay, well they're Eastern European women.

And they one and two, they would not be seen as high class. For example, if you took your kids home from boarding school and they met women who looked like most of his wives again, they, they, you get made fun of, right? Like, if I took my friends to my house and I had a mom, like his, his wife.

Simone Collins: I'm actually thinking of that scene in Legally Blonde where Elle Woods is looking yearbook or something of, The, the kind of woman that her ex boyfriend is trying to date because he's trying to become like a WASPy politician. Yeah. It's just like, you know, more, more unfortunate looking women. And she's like dumpy looking

Malcolm Collins: and like, you know what that's saying.

Yeah, dumpy and

Simone Collins: unfortunate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You are, you're dating in these WASPy circles, which I learned to code switch to at a young age, right? Like growing up in one of these political families. That scene is very [00:23:00] accurate as to what you are told to look for, right? Not this ostentatious, ultra feminized version of a woman, right?

Simone Collins: Right, because that's who you have your affairs with, not marry. He keeps marrying the people he's supposed to be having affairs with! No, I think he's just like, I think he's a businessman. He's like, why can't I have my cake and eat it too? I'm going to marry the person I want to have the affair with and I'm going to have affairs with additional ones because why would I want to have one?

That's not all so hot, right? That's logical. And again, I,

Malcolm Collins: I pass. No, I'm just talking like cultural normativity. I refuse to believe that he got this from like wasp culture and in a boarding school. There was some other influence in this man's life. But anyway, to continue, it

Simone Collins: definitely did not come from wasp culture.

culture because there's no way that that could come from wasp culture. We can all agree that this didn't come from wasp, wasp culture. I mean, even like Benjamin Franklin who loves hanging around Versailles, right? Is, is, is, Inventing the [00:24:00] highly practical things like the Franklin stove, you know, he's you know, he's not out there making gilded devices He's making highly practical money saving devices.

It's not an american thing.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, if anyone in the comments has any ideas here, I would love to hear them. Where did Donald Trump pick up his Persian aesthetics?

Simone Collins: Anyway, where were we iran? Which of

Malcolm Collins: the following do you believe in we're going over some stats here. Okay,

Simone Collins: okay

Malcolm Collins: So 78. 3 believe in god compared to the U. S., which dipped to a new low of 81 percent recently. So, many more Americans believe in God. Life after death, only 30. 3 percent of people in Iran believe in life after death.

Less than 40 percent of people in Iran believe in life after death. That is wild. Like, out of all the religions, they're like, eh, there's probably no life after death. Heaven and hell, 30. 1%. Less than a third. Interesting, when they asked religion, so to give you an idea of how much [00:25:00] disgust they have for organized religion in the country, even if they identify as a Muslim, only 27.

8 percent believe in religion. More broadly. So, like, less than the percent that are Shia, even the state religion, enforcing There are

Simone Collins: people who answered on this survey, I am a Shia Muslim. I don't believe in religion. That happen?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Maybe because they consider themselves ethnically Shia Muslim, or maybe Yeah, that makes sense.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. They

Malcolm Collins: just have so much Which I guess goes to

Simone Collins: show, like, the extent to which making the religion the rule Kills the religion. Now, now people lose their religion because it's the rule. It's like, I'm, you know, I'm I'm a Democrat, but I don't believe in any democratic policies, you know, cause it's a technical thing.

And yeah, I get it. Yeah. But

Malcolm Collins: the point being is like, I tell people you don't want to enforce this porn ban and they're like, Oh, you're doing this for your own degenerate means. I'm like, look at the data. I'm trying to help you. You, you will lose. [00:26:00] Everything. If you do this stop trying to enforce your, you do not want to ban gay marriage.

No, no, no, this isn't about allying with gay people, even though I don't have a problem with gay people. I'm just saying and I wouldn't want my kids to be gay. Like, that's okay. Right? Like you can have, you can have a cultural expectation for your own family that doesn't apply to other people's families.

Okay. But when you attempt to apply to other people's families, that's when you lose your own family and your entire culture.

I would note here that this didn't use to be the case. This specifically emerged as the case because of the internet and the ease of finding alternate social environments. If you are feeling ostracized from your birth environment and the.

Aggressive memes, which spread online, which will attempt to actively deconvert your children.

But here's something I find really interesting here. Jen. So Jen is like ghosts or like genies 25. 7 percent believe in them. So only a little less than believe in religion.

So [00:27:00] you still get the folk tales and everything like that. It's the organized religion that dies first, not a people's willingness to believe in the supernatural when you would try to force these values on people. The coming of mankind, savior, 25. 6%. But yeah, now these numbers demonstrate that a general process of secularization known to encourage religious diversity is taking place in Iran, an overwhelming majority, 90 percent describe themselves as hailing from believing or practicing religious families.

So this happened within a generation. They lost like when you're like, how quickly can we really lose kids that quickly isn't like a, oh, you do this and they control the country for a few generations. You went from 90 percent coming from a religious family to 27. 8 percent saying that they identify as religious 47%.

Report losing religion in their lifetime and six percent said they changed from one religion to another in their lifetime With younger people reporting higher levels of irreligiosity and [00:28:00] conversions to christianity than older correspondents And here i'm putting a a graph on screen that talks about some of this and so you can see That this is a phenomenon that is primarily among young people.

I went from being religious to non religious and yeah What's interesting here is that it's not that much bigger in university educated people versus non university educated people in Iran. And I think that that's the danger of state control. Which is to say that for university educated people is 51 percent, non university educated is 45.

2 percent. Also here Urban versus rural, not as big as you'd think. Urban 48. 3 percent left religion. Rural, 41. 1 percent left religion. So if you're like, oh, well, if I live rurally, they'll be safe. 41. 1 percent rural left religion. And here you also see the trend that we see historically is that it's much more likely for men to leave religion than women.

49. 9 percent of men, 0. 1 percent away from 50 percent of men. left their religion if they were raised religious. Whereas [00:29:00] it was women, it was 43. 4%. Is that wild?

Simone Collins: This is just hard for me to believe. It, it's so much worse than I could have imagined. If you, if you had me at the beginning of this conversation, make some broad guesses as to how bad it is.

I wouldn't get to this level. I'd be like, well, maybe half, half are not religious.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's shocking. And it shows how apocalyptic it is to attempt to enforce religion through a state. It does not work, especially in the age of the internet. Or it might be exclusively in the age of the internet.

I don't know, but you know, one of my ancestors, Oliver Cronwell learn this and it's one of the reasons why I'm so fastidiously against it is I feel that we need to intergenerationally learn from our mistakes and Yes, I mean, yes art should be sinful. Yes. Music should be sinful Yes, video games are sinful and if we had a state that banned all of these and everyone agreed with that And it worked to just ban them all [00:30:00] we'd have a more moral state and he tried that you know He tried to ban Art and music and singing and plays and all of that and Christmas and all of these sinful things, right?

But what we learned is that that causes an opposite effect to the fact you expect it to have and that we need to learn to live in harmony with sin and just not aggrandize it instead of Banning it, that appears to lead to very negative effects. But anyway, Asserd said they occasionally drink alcohol in a country that legally enforces temperance.

Wild. It's so hard to get alcohol in Muslim countries too. How do

Simone Collins: they, yeah, I wonder if it's just moonshine or something else. Some black market

Malcolm Collins: over 60 percent said they do not practice their obligatorily daily Muslim prayers. Synchronous was a 2020 state back poll in which 60 percent reported to not observing the fast during Ramadan.

The majority due to being quote unquote sick. But, but the state back poll [00:31:00] shows that this data is likely accurate, right? Because it's, it's matching numbers here. In comparison, a comprehensive survey conducted in 1974, before the Islamic Revolution, over 80 percent said they prayed and observed the fast.

The very last thing you want is for your religion to take over. To the integralists out there, you will fail, even harder than you're failing right now. Of course,

Simone Collins: for sure. We found a

Malcolm Collins: societal secularization was also linked to a critical view of religious governance system. 68 percent agreed that religious prescriptions should be excluded from legislation, even if they hold a parliamentary majority.

So okay, around 70 percent of people in Iran, presumably a theocracy, said that even if the religious side holds a majority, they should not be able to post religious laws.

You see how crazy that [00:32:00] is? But I also think this shows you the nature of the Persian people as well. Where I'm like, Persians in Islam, there never has been like a well matched ethnicity and religion here. And 72 percent opposed the law mandating all women wear a hijab, the Islamic veil. 72 percent opposed that.

This is what, 28 percent who are for this law, like nobody.

Simone Collins: Yeah. What's it going to take then for that to be reversed? I mean, obviously there were major protests about this and then nothing happened. Most

Malcolm Collins: government needs to be replaced and, and they're getting scared now they're getting scared because of Trump.

And a lot of people, they, they consider Trump like, because he's actually hard on them. He actually like and they've gotten to a state now where Peter Zeihan, you know, fervent anti Trumper. was doing a piece on Iran is seriously at risk of collapsing like their current government. If they can't figure out a way to do a

Simone Collins: deal

Malcolm Collins: with Trump.

Yeah. And they're panicking apparently about this.

Simone Collins: Well, they should be. I mean, China's also sort of preemptively, I think starting to [00:33:00] hurt. I mean, it's hurting from Trump's last policies. I've been somehow YouTube discovered in my algorithm that I'm interested in what's going on in China, and I'm just getting constant recommended videos about how the middle class can no longer support themselves, that people with designer bags are doing gig work on rented e bikes, and people aren't able to afford their rental properties anymore, they're going bankrupt and, you know, a lot of this is, is sagging demand due to a growing old population that just doesn't consume as much.

But a huge amount of this as well is that still China exports more than it imports, and they're going to have even more trouble with Trump's tariffs,

Malcolm Collins: so Yeah, a lot of countries that have been gaming the system are going to have a tough time of it with Trump because he actually enforces this s**t, and people are beginning to freak out in a lot of countries.

And could this lead to [00:34:00] government's changes? I mean, I hope I want the CCP to change. I want Iran's government to change. I think Iran actually from a disposition perspective has a, if you like pulled the average Iranian, you're going to get a country that would be an amazing ally. To either the United States or Israel.

Simone Collins: Right, so if Iran just had a bloodless revolution, and basically the will of the people, as we understand it, who knows if our understanding is accurate, was actually executed upon. And it became a more, we'll say, socially open Zoroastrian leaning, culturally

Malcolm Collins: I I I'd love a Zoroastrian theocratic state.

Simone Collins: But but not by rule, just by theme. Not by rule, yeah. And and they they became allies suddenly. Israel and the United States, they would thrive. Can it happen? No, nothing [00:35:00] ever works out that nicely. Well, what would have to happen for that to happen? I, I guess the entrenched bureaucracy, the entrenched leadership, they would all just have to be killed suddenly.

They would all have to suddenly die because you can't. Yeah, there's no way they're going to let go a grip of power. No, absolutely. There's no way they're going to change their

Malcolm Collins: policies. And there is no way, Simone, Simone, I mean, if we're talking logically here, right, it's not like there's some other country that would have a vested interest in all the leaders of Iran randomly dying on one day that has shown the capacity to achieve feats like that in the past.

That, that, that wouldn't happen, right? They're not all gonna suddenly get window cancer like in pager cancer. You know, I'm just saying stranger things have happened to the enemies of this particular country. Then, then randomly, oh, so weird. They all were dead [00:36:00] one day. And Zoroastrian Bob found himself in the capital.

What was that? Keep in mind the Zoroastrian population is only like, one third the size of the Shia population. And a Persian nationalist Zoroastrian Iranian regime, I think, would be very interesting. From a geo geopolitical perspective, because I think it would find a lot of common alliance with many of the, the pow But, but again, they're shrinking, so let's go into their fertility situation here, right?

Okay. Oh, but before we go into that, In terms of religious diversity, 43 percent said that no religion should have the right to proselytize in public. Oh, sorry, almost half of people in a theocratic dictatorship said that almost no one should be legally allowed to proselytize in public. Wait, what? And 41 percent believe that every religion should be able to proselytize in public.

So the group that thinks that only Muslims should be is what, like 5 percent there or something? No.

Simone Collins: [00:37:00] Yeah. Yeah, not great.

Malcolm Collins: So Iran implemented, like, very strict fertility restrictions in 1989. They implemented a bunch of anti natalist policy. Yeah, they're, they're

Simone Collins: a great case study in why it's extremely hard to reverse.

anti natalist policies after they've been heavily implemented. So for at least a decade, they basically like read the population bomb and were like, Oh my God, we've got to do something about this. And they did. And they were very effective. And now they're discovering you can't just turn that around.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

In context. So from 1968 to 1988 the country doubled its population from 27, 000, 000 to 55, 000, 000. And they were like, how are we going to keep feeding these people if we keep doubling like this? Right? Because again, population bomb. It all makes sense. And at the time, I don't believe people were being stupid and the specific measures that they put in place here.

I find pretty interesting. They had a family planning program reintroduction in 1989 where they that had been dismantled after the Islamic [00:38:00] Revolution, actually. So this is after the Islamic Revolution when all this stuff was put in place.

They built a two child family model. The government began promoting a two child family model and they slowed down a population group growth. They began to increase the The availability of contraceptives the Ayatollah Khomeini in 1980 issued a fatwa or religious edict that declared Islam permits the use of contraceptives, providing religious backing for family planning support.

They ran a media campaign. The government launched a media campaign encouraging women to limit their number of children and space out their pregnancies by three to four years to avoid pregnancy under 18 and over 35. So basically really limiting the number of kids they could have. Can you imagine limiting pregnancies at three?

You'd be so sad.

Simone Collins: Well, also it's just, it leads to poor family dynamics. If you have kids that are so far apart in age, it's so much better to feel like back to back. Even if you're having only two, you're better off back to back.

Malcolm Collins: [00:39:00] Well, I'm just glad that you're autistic and this is your special interest. So this led to a fertility crash.

So, in 1980, they had a genuinely unsustainable number of children, 6. 58 average children per, per woman. In 1988, it had fallen to 5. 5, by 1996, it had fallen to 2. 8, in 2000, it had fallen to 2. 1 and now it's at 1. 6. But by what was not counted here is by 2012 it had fallen to 1. 6. So, a long time ago, by 2012, like more than a decade ago, at this point, it had already fallen to this disastrous level of fertility.

And what's interesting about Iran is they were one of the first countries to recognize this.

And so they tried to reverse this. All right. So what did they start to do? They started to and I, I think that this is really interesting. They reversed the anti natalist policies, but they also, you know, in Iran, you get free land for families with three children or more.

Simone Collins: So like two acres and a mule, [00:40:00] but for having babies for

Malcolm Collins: house construction and childbearing and marriage loans adjusted for economic conditions.

So, So yeah, I've asked more about this freelance thing. Cause I'm like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. As of 2024, approximately 80, 000 families have taken advantage of this. So this is a widely implemented policy. They're going for it. In cities with under half a million people. Couples who have their third child are allocated land given half to the mother and half to the father.

So they're allocated land in the city for cities with over half a million people. People with over three children are given land in a nearby area or a smaller city or a new city.

Simone Collins: So maybe you could build a rental property on it. I guess what, why would you have

Malcolm Collins: a rental property in a city that hasn't been developed yet?

It's that seems kind of area. Well, I also understand you can't afford to give them land in the city that they. Yeah,

Simone Collins: but I mean, again, this isn't. It's not going to change a family's. Decision on having kids. That's not going to [00:41:00] boost fertility.

Malcolm Collins: As we have pointed out, you cannot get fertility up with handouts.

Yeah. It has to be religion. And that's what they lost, was faith. Because you tried to force it on them, rather than giving them a reason to believe. Which is what this channel is all about. The exact opposite approach if I ran. Okay. Healthcare support. They gave free insurance coverage to rural mothers with three or more children.

Increased the number of infertility treatment schindlers. 90 percent of insurance coverage for infertility treatments. in government centers. That's a great policy, by the way. Legal and social measures and nine months of maternity leave for window for women efforts to prevent illegal abortions, promoting easy marriages.

And they've done media campaigns and they've done education initiatives. And in 2021, they outlawed sterilization, they banned free distribution of contraceptives, they restricted access to abortion, and they mandated collection and sharing of [00:42:00] patients fertility and pregnancy histories. In 2023 to 2024, the Population Use Bill, partial penalties for abortion, criminalization of providing abortion services or related information discriminatory workplace practices favoring men, so now they're like actively discriminating against women, and this is what we tell people, and I'll find a way to make gender egalitarian cultures,

Stable.

They will not exist in the future. And we will see a rapid erosion of women's rights in our generation. The only and most feminist thing you can do is have kids. Lots, lots of kids. Not like two kids, like a reasonable number, like eight kids. Okay, if you're, really, if you're having less than five kids, can you call yourself a feminist anymore?

I don't think so. You're a grifter who is, who is writing on The petticoats of previous women who did the actually challenging stuff so that you could surf on it. Right? Now, these measures have significantly impacted women's reproductive rights. Anyway, [00:43:00] your thoughts, Simone,

Simone Collins: we need to remember when looking at printed list policies that there are. People have different definitions of perinatalism. Some people hear perinatalism and they think family friendly, and that's fine and valid. When we talk about perinatalism, we talk about that which increases birth rate. There are lots of policies that we would love, personally, that are very family friendly, I would love to be given free land for each kid we have.

I would love to be given tax breaks and handouts and free childcare and all sorts of benefits. But it, that isn't going to increase birth rates. And I think that that's a really important thing is, is just because something is family friendly doesn't mean that it will make families bigger or help families become bigger.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I think that, that honestly, the only solution is culture and religion. But that is not done through forcing your religion on people. People who think, Oh, if we just forced harder, if we just pushed harder, it's like, no, it's the exact opposite effect, [00:44:00] which you need to do. Is you need to, as your religion has done historically, like I mentioned Catholics here, right?

Like Catholics are like, but our religion never updates. And I'm like, well, this life begins at conception thing is something that you started about 200 years ago as Pope Pius IX. It was not something your historic thinkers thought and people are like nitpicking. They're like, well, they were definitely anti abortion, even if they thought life began at conception or they weren't sure about that.

I'm like, yeah, but it wasn't a hard policy. This is a new thing. And it was created if you look at the early thinkers because somebody, you know, was telling me they're like, well, you know, while they were anti abortion, but they thought these dates. And I was like, okay, if you told Thomas Aquinas or Augustus of Hippo There's this technology now called IVF.

And if you don't use it, children are not going to exist. And parents who want children, if you understood the way that they viewed fertility and insolvent, you obviously they'd be pro anything that increases the number of children that are coming into the world, especially if you're denying children that a family intended to have, but wasn't able to have because you denied them technology like this.

But the point I'm [00:45:00] making here is that so many of these policies where people are like, oh, I can just push this on people and it will work. It doesn't work. And so, the alternative is to work on continuing to evolve and update your religious traditions to one, resist the challenges of our time, but also to harmonize those reality as we understand it.

And unfortunately, a lot of religions that were, I say, predicated on the average believer not having access to modern information about, like, Earth isn't the center of the solar system. Earth isn't the center of the solar system isn't the center of the universe. You know, they, they, they worked because the average person didn't know that stuff.

And then as the average person learned more and more and more people begin to move away from this and we can do a separate episode on the mass conversions away from Islam that we're beginning to see where if we look at religions that are like uniquely harmed by access to information, people Islam, unfortunately, is one of the [00:46:00] top.

Unfortunately, I'm saying, I don't know, like, maybe not unfortunately, but Islam unfortunately, just doesn't harmonize very well with our current understanding of reality, and I don't think that that's because the text of Islam doesn't. As we have pointed out from a lot of the text of Islam stuff we've gone over, the text of Islam is very different from what Your average Muslim religious leader right now is trying to enforce on the Muslim population to get them to believe the text says as we pointed out, the text is pretty clear that Islam is a religion is only meant for Arabs.

It is only meant for people who have the Arab language. I, it says things like, I put this religion down for you in Arabic because that's the language you, you speak. You being the people who this religion is for, it's pretty clear it was meant to live alongside other true religions like Christianity and Judaism, not antagonistic to them.

But it, it has morphed from that into something that is [00:47:00] not Islam, into some alternate b*****d religion that some of the religious leaders push and this is leading to its fragility. And so I'm not saying that like Islam needs to go, but like the, the, the, the iteration of Islam that is commonly practiced today is obviously not going to survive because it's not what the texts say, and it doesn't harmonize well with reality as like the facts or the science understands it.

And I think what's interesting here is you're seeing even a faster conversion away from Islam than you are from other. Religious traditions, which struggle with this harmonization as well, like, Mormonism, for example struggles with. History. But the, the, the, the, the thing is, is at least with Mormons, you have two real advantages, right?

One is as Mormons can iteratively update their religion and it's like a weirdly futurist religion in many ways. They're like, yeah, well, if the church doesn't say this now, they'll be saying it in 10 years. So I'll just believe it now. I mean, that's what history

Simone Collins: has always been a creative pursuit. [00:48:00] It's just that right now, it's way too easy to fact check and it hasn't been.

Throughout most of human history.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and it is wholesome, in a way. What I'd say is, a lot of people will castigate Mormons for, Oh, you have all these bans on X, Y, and Z. And yeah, I don't agree with a lot of the Mormon bans, right? Like, the ban on masturbation is buffoonery. But it's generally a wholesome movement, right?

And I think that a lot of Muslims do not feel this way. They feel that people are trying to force them to live this way in a really aggressive and authoritarian and violent fashion. And so there is more to be gained from exploring and subverting these religious beliefs. Which I think is, Yeah, it's, it's not gonna work.

It's not gonna work. And it's, it's likely going to lead to, now do I think that we're going to see like a massive Muslim fertility crash? No, but I think that we will see a, a unique [00:49:00] fertility crash around Muslims who are open to challenging authority, who are educated, who are economically productive and this leads to a lot of challenges.

But as we've seen, even in Iran, apparently there's been a huge growth in the Christian community. And the Zoroastrian community, which I even prefer more because I think that that harmonizes more with their ethnic background. As people know, I generally think you shouldn't just choose a religion that hasn't been in your people for centuries.

But anyway, what are your thoughts?

Simone Collins: I largely agree with you. I, it's just, I'm, I'm just shocked by what has happened in Iran. I, I hope so. That this is signs of it that a sea change will come and that Iran is about to see a new golden age because it is clear that where they are from a demographic standpoint and geopolitically and now religiously that they are not in a sustainable position.

That means that something is fundamentally going to change quite [00:50:00] profoundly. And that's cool. So hopefully things will change for the better. And I'm just going to try to be optimistic about this.

Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: What are we doing for dinner tonight? A pasta with pesto.

Simone Collins: Pasta with pesto.

I'm also going to make some karai spiced fried chicken for you, but in the air fryer.

That's a right.

Malcolm Collins: Karai? Spiced? Is it pre cooked? Where is it from?

Simone Collins: Breaded. Breaded and fried. It's from you. Oh yes. That sounds good. You've had it before and you like it and I did both oven and air fryer and you preferred air fryer. So that's what I'm going to do.

Malcolm Collins: You are a lovely wife.

Simone Collins: You are a lovely husband and I love you so much. And I love our kids and they're little nerds. Oh actually, can't,

Malcolm Collins: should, should I try to deep fry things [00:51:00] occasionally again?

Simone Collins: It's such a waste of oil, and it, it messes up the whole shelf. Cause it just covers everything in oil. Maybe we can wait just a little.

Until the kids like, like it too. You know, because then, then we have the whole family getting in on it.

Malcolm Collins: Looks like Injustify with the kids, okay. Yeah, and those,

Simone Collins: those two string fries that you used to make, you know, yeah, I mean, there was a world, yeah, there's a world in which this needs to happen, but. The world isn't here yet because we have three children who hate eating.

Oh, right. I'll

Malcolm Collins: make more

Simone Collins: children, Simone. Dang. You don't have to twist my wrist on this. Twist your arm. I will not. I will just go ahead and do it. You know?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, you'll just keep producing them? Just keep.

Simone Collins: Well, hopefully we'll see. I'm so nervous about January. Hopefully. You

Malcolm Collins: do the betting poll in one of the betting sites about us.

There are two.

Simone Collins: Manifold has two different markets. Regarding how many kids we're going to have by [00:52:00] what year I bet on both. Of course, the big question is, When will I physically be unable to have more kids? This is not a mentally thing, so I think people should be making bets based on their knowledge of where I am from a uterine strength standpoint, you know?

Malcolm Collins: They're, they're, they're betting here when we say this is her autistic special interest. I'm being serious here. They are betting here on the autistic man, not having more trains in a few years. They are, they're saying he has 50 trains. He couldn't possibly need more. The question then is

Simone Collins: how financially constrained will he be?

How much, you know, when, who will he, and I've never, I don't think it's a question of space. The autistic man finds space. So

Malcolm Collins: he couldn't possibly spit more trains and trains find a way

Simone Collins: trains find a way

Malcolm Collins: this bedroom will be the train room next, you know, he'll sleep in the closet.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There was a [00:53:00] time when we did sleep in the closet in one of our houses because it was just like more reasonable than the bedroom.

Simone Collins: I felt uncomfortable sleeping in that large of a bedroom and the closet was so cozy. It's perfect. It was so, it was amazing.

Plus Texas has huge closets. We like, we do not have closets here. This is insane. Do we? We have two closets. No, you have closets. You have closets.

Malcolm Collins: The only room in the house was closets.

Simone Collins: That's crazy.

Malcolm Collins: But why? What's the point? You know, you only need one outfit. Why would you have a closet? Well, it

Simone Collins: is interesting that the house is built in the 1700s, didn't have running water.

So there, there were no bathrooms and then they didn't have, I guess a lot of stuff. So where would there would be no need for closets and now people are like, literally, I imagine, imagine the, the, the, the pilgrims confusion upon hearing that there's entire history, [00:54:00] sorry, an entire industry dedicated to storage units.

And you have to explain to you know, silence do good that. There are people of all economic levels who have so much stuff that they pay a monthly rent. To, to hold the stuff that they don't want to let go of.

Malcolm Collins: So we in one of our episodes, the one title people used to like their parents, which I think is one of our better episodes, check it out if you haven't where I go over the diaries of my great, great grandfather and he does an inventory in it of everything they own and it is they have a, a shack, they have an outhouse, and the thing he was really proud of or thought of as very expensive was a, a flywheel for spinning the fabric or something.

A flywheel or

Simone Collins: a spinning wheel?

Malcolm Collins: A spinning wheel, yes. A loom? Do they have

Simone Collins: a loom or a spinning wheel?

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, not a loom, a spinning wheel only.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The rest they had to do themselves. And that was, [00:55:00] that was their assets. And nothing else. They had pigs, which he got mad at him for. Well,

Simone Collins: 3D printers of their age.

I mean, that was pretty cool. We don't have a 3D printer. Right, they actually

Malcolm Collins: were. It's like, Oh, I don't need to go to the store to get thread. I can just make it. Really cool. Yes. That's something to be proud of. Yeah, so, I, I get, you're right, they were the 3D printers, we don't think about that. Yeah.

Spinning wheels were the 3D printers of their age. Oh, I made a component that I can use to make other things. Yeah. But, just the, the, the, the, you'd have like a list of property. I have a spinning wheel, what, what else? Well, we dug a hole out there and we have like a little shack around it and they're like, what else?

And I've got a place where we all sleep together in the same room right there. And it's like, what else? It's like, well, my dad sold the pigs a bit early last year. I love it. His, his huge rant about his dad selling the pigs to

Simone Collins: very

Malcolm Collins: much the Bitcoin of his generation. Yeah. He

Simone Collins: sold early. Oh my [00:56:00] gosh.

That's like, my dad had some Bitcoin. At least I have guide in hand

Malcolm Collins: with the swine market. Yeah.

Love you to death.

Simone Collins: I love you too. I'll go start dinner.

Malcolm Collins: You're so wonderful. .

Speaker 7: He strides through hallways decked in gold, so bright. Like a sultan's palace glowing day and night. Marble pillars glimmer, echoing his name. A Persian king or president, one and the same. Shimmering drapes, flush rugs under each foot. A A fortress of bling that no one can refute. Gold leaf on the ceiling, mirrors everywhere.

He's bold, he's brash, who else [00:57:00] would even dare? Where are the paintings of boats, of horses so rare? Where are random cottages in frames, why aren't they there? And where are the model ships, decked out in their coats? Where We're asking our first Persian friends, show us those votes.

He bedazzles ballrooms, each corner ornate. Like something out of ancient lore, or so we state. Halls paved in splendor, shining under the light. Surprise, surprise, he's got It's quite a sight.

He claims he's classy with flair unmatched. A thousand chandeliers perfectly dispatched. Grand Tourette's, big fountains, exotic [00:58:00] mystique. All hail our Persian prez. So lavish, unique. Where are the paintings of boats? Of horses so rare? Random cottages in frames, why aren't they there? And where are the model ships?

Decked out in their coats? We're asking our first Persian friends. Show us! Those boats,

every corner gilded, every surface gleams like shy era fantasies, fresh out of dreams. Marble upon marble, a treasure trove of hue. Yes, it's gaudy, but hey, it's trumped through and through. Where are the paintings of boats, of horses so rare, random cottages in frames, why And where the model [00:59:00] ships decked out in their coats Our gilded Persian president,

please bring on those boats

Join us for one of our most requested episodes as we dive into the heated debate around the H1B visa program. We start by explaining what the H1B visa is supposed to be versus the reality of its implementation, including its significant impact on Indian immigration. We discuss arguments from both sides, touching on issues like Indian nepotism in hiring and the economic advantages of skilled immigrants. The conversation also covers the demographic challenges America faces and the role of highly skilled immigrants in maintaining national security and economic growth. We further analyze a controversial article from Aporia that critiques skilled immigration from a cultural perspective. The episode also delves into the accusations against Elon Musk's alleged sock puppet account on Twitter, providing a nuanced discussion around the H1B visa, its cultural impact, and its importance for America's future. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. This is probably one of the most requested episodes we've ever had, but what are our thoughts on the current H 1B visa debate that's going on in the right right now? Now, just first, I need to categorize for people's brains, which the H 1B visa actually is, because there was what we are told the H 1B visa is, and then there is what the H 1B visa actually is.

So for people outside the United States, the H 1B visa is the idea that if you have special talents or you're uniquely skilled companies can bring you, like, bring you over for immigration and sort of fast track your immigration process only if they can prove that they can't find an equivalent person in the United States.

So, What the H 1B visa actually is, and this is going to shock you, Simone, is you know how the U. S. used to have, like, immigration thresholds for different countries? Where if you were of certain ethnicities, you could get sort of a free pass into the United States, or a much easier pass into the United States that made the existing ethnic mix of the [00:01:00] United States?

Right. The H 1B visa is basically that, but for Indian people. Seventy three percent of people who get an H 1B visa are Indian.

Simone Collins: Whoa, wow. Okay, that's more than I thought.

Malcolm Collins: That's an insane amount, if you're like, looking at a global stage. It is, it is the The and this, this plays into a lot of resistance that some people have to it.

So if you're just people like us and you're like, Oh, the competent people, like, I don't care if we get a lot of competent immigrants in, and a lot of people are complaining, well, it's not just the competent immigrants. There's a lot of Indian nepotism causing people to come in. So I want to get to that aspect of the debate, because I think that there is a level of nuance here.

The second thing I'd like to say on all of this is I told you so. So, so many people, when we were like, okay, we're Believe me, Trump's administration is now the new right. That's who's staffing his offices. That's going to be the policy you're going to see coming out of it. When I talked about the new right, old right split and the JD Vance [00:02:00] appointment, and it's sort of symbolizing Trump going in a new right direction.

And I had pointed out many times, I was like, Trump is against low skilled immigrants, he is for high skilled immigrants on the all in podcast. He even went so far as to say he'd give all, People who got a college degree in in America and automatic citizenship. Now, I think that's going too far, but I am okay if you do that for like the top two, three colleges, maybe.

Now, because it's actually insane. We like train here, the best PhDs, like in the world here. And we'll get people to go, like go to Stanford. Like I had a friend from Israel, right? Came over, started a company. It was doing well. And they kicked him out of the country. And I'm like, This company could have been like a billion dollar company.

What percent of our unicorns are by immigrants? I think it's like 33 percent of the companies that ended up being over a billion dollars in

Simone Collins: valuation.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry. I was rowing here. It was 55%. So over half of us Billion dollar valuation companies are founded by first-generation immigrants.

Yeah. It's just stupid to kick out somebody with a Stanford MBA who's starting a company that's already funded. I'm like, what, what is wrong with you people?

So [00:03:00] like broadly I'm, I'm proud of this, but, but the marketing point here that I was like, look, the new right is really in control of the ship now. And a lot of people thought I was blustering or that I was bluffing. Or that I would, like, apparently no, like the H1B visa. That is the most anti MAGA thing you could have in terms of like the old MAGA.

Right? But it fits perfectly with the policy of the new right. Which is just about efficiency and actually America first, like ensuring that we beat our enemies. And so if it works out well, okay. So now let's get into the, the actual battle here. Anything you want to say before I go further?

Simone Collins: No, keep going.

I do have only one hesitation that hit me about H 1B visas after I read an Aporia article, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on their arguments, which I will run by you, but let's go over your arguments first.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, hold on. There's something we have to go over before any of this. The Andrean Didderman. Is

Simone Collins: this a real person's name?

Malcolm Collins: Well, it's funny that you think it sounds like a made up name. So many people argue that a Twitter account called Andrian Ditterman is a [00:04:00] fake account that Elon Musk is using as a sock puppet to support himself. That has said things like, You're a great dad, Elon. And that has regularly tweeted like pro Elon things.

And He doesn't seem

Simone Collins: like the kind of person to do a sock puppet account.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so the left is memeing about this. I learned about it from like an advice animals meme. Unfortunately, from a drama perspective, it's almost certainly not true. One is common sense. If, as Simone said, it's just out of character for him. If you like follow him in any form of a generous fashion um, or, He, can I say he wouldn't do something like that.

It, it just doesn't come off like him. He's sort of like a nerdy dad type. He's not like a desperate for affirmation. In fact, he does a lot of things that are very like going to get him public hate. He more likes s**t storming than affirmation. Like he's a, he's a troll for, for trollings sake [00:05:00] in a big way.

No, I

Simone Collins: think, I think he likes attention. Just like any person, typically, but he's not, it takes a very specific type of person to do the sock puppeting thing. He

Malcolm Collins: doesn't care about positive attention, I guess I'd say.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, and he, like, the kind of person who is capable of, Who would turn to a sock pocket puppet for affirmation is also the kind of person who doesn't hold themselves to that high of a standard.

There are some people who are too proud Who would actually want real praise like they may pander to praise They would never use themselves to do that because it needs to be real like the the lack of honor In fake praise from a sock puppet account that you yourself created would be so humiliating to yourself and your own internal narrative That like you would never do it,

Malcolm Collins: but it also makes no sense This account had 20 000 followers or whatever year ago now.

It's at like a hundred thousand followers Elon's elon tweets get like Tens of millions of views [00:06:00] like that. He would try to praise himself and in terms of responses I would guess the average elon tweet gets Probably and what do you think 200 000 responses like a single response among those would not be enough to matter like even on videos as small as ours.

We have already reached a size Where it wouldn't make sense for me to create a sock puppet because the sock puppet would just, like, be drowned out by all the legitimate comments and praise. Elon has enough obsequious fanboys that he doesn't need a sock puppet. But also there's hard evidence that it's not Elon, which a lot of people haven't done digging.

And so here I'm going to read from a piece by Kattrick. According to Alistair McPline, he participated in a Twitter Spaces event and heard the voice of Adrian Ditterman, which sounded like Elon Musk's voice modified using modulation software. Yeah?

Simone Collins: Just crazy.

Malcolm Collins: But he goes on to say, last year I joined some of Ditterman's Twitter Spaces, where he was [00:07:00] encouraging people to jump on Elon Musk's tweets as soon as they were posted to boost reach and engagement.

So, you know what? Unfortunately, here we basically have before he and then he goes, and it was clear that Adrian is not Elon Musk, but that he often made deliberate slips in his conversation to spark controversy and grab attention. These slips seem designed to make people think he's Musk, but no real evidence to support the claim.

And there's also evidence that Adrian and Elon have been in the same spaces several times but they're not the same person. A year ago, Adrian had 20k followers and he was actively encouraging his audience to engage with his posts and try to get Musk into his live rooms. If you really believe Adrian is Elon, you're probably not looking closely enough at the facts.

The whole idea that they're the same person falls apart as soon as you take a deeper look. So basically, it would only appear that Adrian was Elon if you look at his tweets from the last year. If you look at his tweets or live rooms from before that year. He was constantly begging to try to get Elon to retweet him, or to dip into his live rooms, which is not something Elon pretending to be Elon would do, [00:08:00] especially further back in the, in the ruse.

He wouldn't get better at the ruse, he wouldn't get worse at the ruse as time went on, he'd get better at the ruse as time went on, right? You know? One would

Simone Collins: expect, unless one becomes increasingly unhinged, like some sock puppeteers have.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But to me, this like Elon wouldn't do that. Like if he was going to create a sock puppet, he wouldn't also create a back trail where he has rooms where the sock puppet is pathetically begging to try to get people to get Elon to retweet him.

Yeah, this sounds

Simone Collins: like just a fan of Elon Musk. So what's the point? What does this fan have to do with H1N1? It is widely

Malcolm Collins: believed on the left that this fan is actually Elon Musk and it's dumb as hell. Like it goes to show like just how far the left will delude themselves. To believe anything that fits their narrative.

And if you're only consuming media from left leaning spaces, you may have assumed that there was actual evidence that this guy is Elon instead of evidence to the direct contrary. And, and when they're like, no, here's proof. He uses similar language. Yeah. But somebody who realized they could get [00:09:00] followers by pretending to be Elon would use similar language.

Oh, he always supports Elon. Yeah. Somebody who's trying to pretend to be an Elon Suck puppet would always support Elon.

And I note here, if you want to do a little bit of digging on this, all of the evidence.

And then Adrian determine is an Elan sock. Puppet comes from things that have been posted by Adrian determine not things that have been posted by Ilan. So people are like, oh, sometimes. He messes up and speaks in the first person. Yes. If somebody was trying to convince you they were Elan, they would do that.

Sometimes he uses language or wording similar to Elan. Yes. If somebody is trying to convince you, he would deal on, he would do that. Like the inability to use common sense on the left is just beyond me at this point. You wouldn't need evidence from the other side. The harder to fake side decide without benefit to faking side. If you're going to make this claim of which they have literally not.

Like How can you not see this ? They, there's no motivation for someone to pretend to be an Elon Stock Club. Oh, yes. That's exactly the sort of thing a crazy unhinged person on [00:10:00] the internet would do.

Right. So anyway back to the topic at hand here. So who's on each side? Elon, obviously one of the key champions on the H one B program. If so, is Vivek Swami and Donald Trump. Donald Trump has recently it said, quote unquote, he always liked the visa. Running companies, you know, you're always going to be handling this.

So one side of the battlefield, you've got Elon, you've got Vivek, and you've got Donald Trump. So if you're not familiar with Elon and Vivek, they are both entrepreneurs. They are both people who have run companies. They are not like generic populists. Playing to racial anxieties like some of wave one Mago on Elon Musk

Simone Collins: is an immigrant from South Africa, though,

Malcolm Collins: right?

I think he came over on an H1 BV. So I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know.

Simone Collins: He came via Canada because he first went to university in Canada. So I don't know the whole process. But then, yeah, he went to university. The U. S. too, so I'm not sure exactly what the immigration status was, but for sure, I mean, he is a [00:11:00] highly skilled person who immigrated to the United States and significantly contributed to the United States well being, so, you know.

Malcolm Collins: And then on the anti side, you have Laura Loomer and Steve Bannon. Right. Like these are, Yes. We've done such great things for her. Right. No, but these aren't, you know, Steve Bannon might be like technically a business person, but he is first and foremost, like a populist messenger. Right. And you know, he is not somebody who's had to build giant companies like Vivec or Elon have built, or who's regularly having to hire top engineering talent and would understand why this is necessary.

Now for the

Accusations that you see a lot on the comments around this is, this is just being used by Indians to hire other Indians. There is evidence for this in terms of lawsuits. So, cognizant, a U S jury found cognizance employment practices, constituted discriminatory conduct towards non Indian workers. 75 percent of their workforce was South [00:12:00] Asian.

And only about 12 percent came from the U S. And they're using the HPV process. So, so here's the problem, right? You can look at an entire company that's doing this. Would you be able to catch a department at Microsoft that was doing this? Would you be able to catch a department at Google that was doing this?

No. And that's what people are saying is happening, right? So, we know that this is happening when Indians are running companies. Like, is it happening when they're running departments? And when you consider the number of fortune 500 companies in the U S that are run by Indians, which is hugely disproportionate, I can see why tech workers would be stressing about this.

Then there was the Tata Consultancy Services in the United States.

So, they fired Americans on short notice and replaced them with Indian workers on H 1B visas, and they were sued for illegal discrimination here. Then you have Infosys paid a record 34 million to settle allegations about this. Just for the sa scale of the fraud here, circumventing H one B visa requirements to unlawfully using [00:13:00] B one visa holders to perform skilled labor, violating US immigration laws to increase profits and an unfair advantage of your competitors.

And yeah. So that's the gist of the information here. Yeah. Now that you've heard, what was it that you read that gave you a thought on this?

Simone Collins: Yeah, so, before reading this article, I was like, Categorically, we benefit from bringing in more skilled immigration. Why? One, we need, from a demographic collapse standpoint, more high, high taxpayers. So people who are coming in and making a lot of money. Are going to hold up the social services for those less fortunate and we really, we really need that.

We really need people to come in and pay for things. So there's that. And in general, it seems like a good idea to, to bring in talent and keep the talent that we invest money in through our universities to, to educate, right. You know, if we have the good schools, shouldn't we keep the good talent that we helped to cultivate?

So then I read [00:14:00] a Porya's article. Title, increasing skilled immigration is a mistake. The gist of the article is that they, they argue that large portion of skilled immigration is is Asian and that Asian immigrants are far more likely to undermine. The, the underpinnings that make America successful, like freedom of speech and small government.

So the arguments that they make are that for example, and I'm here, I'm quoting from the article. Asian Americans are an extremely left wing group, so much so that despite their economic success, Asians are much more pro government intervention than whites and are closer to blacks or Hispanics , you have much more to gain from redistribution.

For instance, a super majority of Asians, 66%, believe that the government should do more to solve problems compared to only 44 percent of whites. Similarly, a super majority, 70 percent of Asians say government regulation is necessary to protect the public interest compared to only 53 percent of [00:15:00] whites.

And then when asked, Explicitly, Asians are much more pro socialist. 49 percent have a positive impression of socialism compared to only 31 percent of whites. They also argue, they also argue that Asians are 12 points more likely than whites to favor censorship.

And while it's impossible to say that You know, this, this would be super like powerful immediately in changing the shape of the United States. If we have significant immigration. from specifically Asian cultures, it could shift the culture of the United States if there isn't really strong assimilation.

They also point out that the United States in comparison with we'll say non U. S. Anglosphere countries, which have had much more open to high skilled immigration policies historically, they note that, quote the comparison with the non U. S. Anglosphere is particularly instructive because these countries are very similar to the United States culturally, genetically, and institutionally.

Britain, Australia, and Canada have all grown more slowly than the United [00:16:00] States since the 2008 financial crisis, and all three have embraced a policy of enormous amounts, far more per capita than the United States, of skilled legal immigration, particularly from China and South Asia. All three have been relatively stagnant, Personal incomes and skyrocketing housing prices.

One might object on the grounds of that immigration to Canada, Australia and Britain isn't really skilled, but this is what skilled immigration looks like when refracted through government bureaucracies. We should treat these countries as a cautionary tale. We would very easily end up in their shoes.

And then I would add to that that after reading this article, I hear news about how Canada is undergoing a, an intense housing prices, pricing crisis, and the government is kind of in turmoil now because no one can afford housing. And what happened was, especially when it came to people being able to get work permits and better immigration status by attending some kind of university in Canada, that basically diploma mill started rolling out diplomas to immigrants who then got to stay in and who have just kind of messed up the [00:17:00] job market and they've messed up The, the housing market and while Americans largely agree that immigrants are taking jobs that Americans don't want, I would also argue that Americans are going to have to start taking jobs and Americans don't want because the jobs they do want are disappearing because of AI.

So these are my general hesitations. I think there are ways to navigate around that. I think

Malcolm Collins: really hard on this particular hesitation. Okay. So, I think if they, and I like Emporia, but I think that they do have certain biases

around,

around certain HBD stuff. And I think that if they wanted to convince me, They would have run the statistics by South Asian immigrants because that's who's using the H 1B visa and the political opinions of, am I surprised that, you know, like Chinese or like, Japanese or Korean people might be majority Democrat?

Yeah. I mean like a lot of my, even like a lot of smart Asians I know are like Democrat, like weirdly. And I'm like, but you, you see there's the [00:18:00] bad guys and they're like, yeah, but you know, whatever the system. I have not seen the was my South Asian friends. Indians, in fact, and I have argued this in a previous episode, might end up being the core of the leadership of a future Republican Party in this country, and we're already seeing this with the new right, whether it's for Beck or Chamath or like, they, they just come off as much better aligned with the right than And I mean we even see this in the influencer space even in like the HBD Like even in their own influencer space.

You've got like, razeeb khan you got you know, I I just I don't know if I, I will look up afterwards for statistics on this after the show,

So Indians of the voting block have been moving rapidly to the right recently. In 20, 20, 50 6% of American Indians identified as Democrats. Well, in 2024, this number had dropped to 47%.

However, , one poll found that 61% intended to [00:19:00] vote for Kamilah while only 32% intended to vote for Trump.

but I actually expect that the right is going to pick up a lot of Indians.

And it just seems pretty natural to me, given that they're pretty based on a lot of this there's ethnic differences between people stuff and we want to protect the country when

Simone Collins: it comes to, like. Chris, for human editing, there, there are, Oh yeah, they are the most pro genetically

Malcolm Collins: editing humans culture.

They're the only culture where the majority of people are like, yeah, it's like 80 percent or something. Like in India, but there's the secondary effect here, which I want to consider. Which is a lot of people are like, yeah, but what about the nepotism networks? And I'm like, look, the nepotism networks are real, but then you also have the cultural differences issue.

And as we point out, there are cultural differences between people. It's just,

yeah,

and maybe maybe ethnic differences as well. I mean, what's the point of diversity if we're not different, right? And India as a culture creates. Now, the first thing I'd note is we are [00:20:00] draining India right now. So if you look at the Indians who come to America, they are

Disproportionately . Brahmin cast which is the vast minority of Indians in India.

To be more specific. 80% of Hindi Indian Americans identify with one of the upper castes. , and of those who are Brahmins specifically 25% of American immigrants are Brahmans. This contrast was then making up just 5% of India's population.

And these are people who are genetically quite distant from the other cast in India, to the extent where Aporia did a good piece on this, there is as much difference between a Brahmin and, like, another caste in India as there is between somebody in northern Germany and Greece in Europe. And if you know the difference between the German people and the Greek people, it is, you know, Severe you could not just replace a german person with a greek person and average and you know, I just say there's a reason there's not a lot of heavy manufacturing in greece.

[00:21:00] Now The the point here being is that we are getting A cream of the crop from India that has been selected as the cream of the crop over Like literally their entire history of this caste system where they had this like intellectual caste, which is who the brahmins are so we're not we're one not getting normal quote unquote indians.

We are getting Elite Indians which are more genetically distant from normals than people from other countries would be is going to be very damaging to India's future prospects. And then when it's not just that, we also get like the other, like elite Indian groups at higher rates, like the Jayans and the Indian Christians and the by the way, India has had Christians for like ever.

If you didn't know this.

Simone Collins: No, I did not know that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. India, India has had a Christians, I think from within like 300 years of Christ's life, they've had a Christian community. Good

Simone Collins: gracious. All

Malcolm Collins: right. Which obviously leads to like a, a differentiated [00:22:00] genetically community because they're basically considered religious weirdos for a long time.

Right. You know, like the same way the James would be here in the same way, the The Parsi would be, who we often talk about, who we also disproportionately would get as immigrants. I don't think we get disproportionate Parsis, actually, because they have to live in weird, like, housing stuff. But anyway, and I'm assuming we get a disproportionate number of JN immigrants, given the number of JNs I know, versus the percent of the Indian population they are.

So, and all these groups that we're mentioning are groups that do disproportionately economically well in India. So, we are draining India of its talent, they're coming to the U. S., many of them aren't having kids. You know, it's not like they're going to replace us or anything. You know, it's just a drain on a global economic talent for some minor economic benefit to the United States, which, you know, being a pro American nationalist, I'm pro that.

It would be cool if we could create self sustaining Indian communities here, but like, who knows if that's a possibility.

A note here Indians have a fertility rate of 1.47 children per [00:23:00] woman, as of 2022. So well below the American average, , and a well below replacement rate. But then, It's the cultural differences between this group of Indians, the group I've seen the other people is when people tell me, like, can you believe this portion of five fortune 500 companies are run by Indians?

Can you believe that? What is it now? It's Google is run by an Indian.

Microsoft is run by an Indian. IBM is run by an Indian. Adobe is run by an Indian. YouTube is run by an Indian,

like all of them are run by Indians now.

I don't know. I

Simone Collins: wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Like, I mean, in, in the tech space, there's just a really heavy Indian representation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And it's that I would say that Indians have a unique talent, like the cultural differences that are represented in this group of Indians that we are getting as each one when.

Visa holders as they're sort of like a perfect culture for engaging with and out competing within large bureaucracies. They are just hyper good at it. And like, [00:24:00] I also kind of get it. Okay, Simone, for example obviously we've never done this form of discrimination. The vast majority of people who work for us are Latin American.

That's the culture we work most with. But let's just say you had a technology company, right? And it was a big one. Lots of people were working at it and you had to choose .

Malcolm Collins: Are you trying to get a suit? Okay, I won't say this. I'm just saying that Like, the, the point is, is, is, is that Indian culture leads to them questioning orders less or trying their own ideas without your approval, less in ways that can lead to things falling apart.

They are less likely to as, as I've seen waste time on personal recreation in the office and stuff like that. They, well, no, it's just like. I get why when Elon's like, look, I cannot find , competent lead engineers trained in the United States.

And I'm looking to India for that from a cultural perspective, I sort of get where he's coming from. If you're looking [00:25:00] for steady iterative improvement without risk of like a controversy or without risk of keep in mind how, how How frequently do you hear of some, like, Indian head of a company, right, getting in trouble for a hooker party, or harassing one of his staff, or sleeping with an underage intern, or, like, never!

Like, well, not never, like, obviously it happens,

Simone Collins: but I'm just saying Well, can you, can you think of a single example of one

Malcolm Collins: happening, though? Of one of that happening? No! I can't either. Whoops. Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Whoops. Right. Like this creates a problem. Right. So in

Simone Collins: response to the Aporia article, you're just arguing that basically they are budging with the samples here, basically trying to fob off East Asians as like South Asians as well.

And that really most of the H1B visa, like the evidence you already have, like you stated that the 70 something percent [00:26:00] number. being South Asians, and it's just a different group. So you can't just be like, well, Asians are generally more in favor of big government and socialism and censorship when in the end you need to, like, if we're really going to have this conversation, we need to pull specific numbers about South Asians.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And

Simone Collins: this multiplies their argument.

Malcolm Collins: No here, it doesn't notify their argument. As I made a point, , in the ad earlier is that the, they are right in the minority of south Asians are voting democratic even still. While they are moving to the right. , if we were trying to just bring in people who we felt would vote for our side, then we should stop bringing in south Asians, I think that ultimately, , with these groups were just causing more harm to ourselves by putting in immigration bans. Anything that hurts our AI companies right now, or our space travel companies right now, our drone companies. These are the things that are going to lead us [00:27:00] to have global hedging me in the future. The people who win these particular battles now. Are going to win the game . I mean, after world war two, we took a bunch of Nazi engineers.

Did, you know, build the space program and a lot of the technology that our world runs off of right now and then helped to make us so rich and people could see like, yeah, but they. You know, had all these bad views and they had all these bad politics and I'm like, yeah, but they were damn good engineers.

The avionic race right now is the Manhattan project of our era. And the country who wins it basically wins the civilizational game. As far as any good predictive power as we have right now, it makes sense that we're doing whatever we can. To get.

Cheap high quality talent, even if it comes at a cost. And I do admit it does come at a cost.

Note here, if you talk about them, like, destroying American culture or something like that, Indians are the least destructive, like, even less than the Jews. I'm like, the Jews don't try [00:28:00] to convert you, like, why are you messing with them? They're not trying to, like, influence you as their culture, but they often end up running, like, Big media stuff and things like that.

It intrinsically leads their culture to trip, to go down into society. And they often end up being like well known intellectuals who people listen to Indians. It's almost the opposite. Like it, your kids are not at risk of being converted into like Hindu or Sikh or any, any of those cultures coming out of India, there's for

Simone Collins: sure.

No evangelization that I see. Very little, there's also very little exclusion. Most of the big Indian weddings that I've been seeing friends posting photos of, for example, are, are mixed between, you know, one. American and one Indian, so well, in

Malcolm Collins: our neighborhood, people might not know this, but for where we live in, like, rural us, and this is something that a lot of people.

Who grew up in cities don't know is this is my read. I don't know if it's true, but it's my read. Is it [00:29:00] Indians actually primarily do not immigrate to inner city America in the same way? A lot of other immigrants do when people are like, oh, I live in an inner city. So I'm in such a diverse area. I'm like, well, I mean only a few ethnicities actually tolerate American inner cities.

pretty much exclusively immigrate to American suburbs and exurbs. Indians and South Asians are one of the groups that pretty much primarily immigrates to exurbs. And so our town that we live in is majority for our age group South Asian.

And they're

either Indian or Pakistani. I haven't asked yet because you don't want to get that one wrong.

And I can't. I remember in an episode. Well, wouldn't, if they were,

Simone Collins: if there were more Pakistani, we would probably see more. Islamic style veiling among women and we do

Malcolm Collins: absolutely none of that. Yeah, they must know I would

Simone Collins: say that they're primarily Indian if I had to guess

Malcolm Collins: Yeah but When we moved here, we considered that like a huge bonus.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh the We can get [00:30:00] the Indian grocery store. That is literally walking distance from our house where we can get it like directly imported You Spices and foods. Oh God. Oh yeah. And all

Malcolm Collins: these Indian, oh, we use 'em cooking all the time. I love it. But but it's, we need to make that, we need to make s er soon.

I think it's, it's not just that, it's that culturally speaking, if I'm like, how do I know that my kids are gonna grow up safe? If they're hanging out with a bunch of Indian friends, I'm not worried about them. Yeah. I'm not worried about them. Yeah.

this, this morning you were on this big

Simone Collins: kick of like, oh my God.

Like what if our children's best. Friends come out as Therians and then what are we going to do? And yeah, their daughter comes out

Malcolm Collins: as a Therian, that's somebody who thinks that they're an animal technically, like a trans person thinks they're the other gender that, that first generation Indian parent is going to be like, what the f**k are you talking about?

You're not a cat, like grow up studying. But what I'm saying is, is that culturally [00:31:00] speaking, am I afraid of them like tainting the United States in some way? Like, absolutely not. In fact, I feel much safer with my kids. Like, if they brought home, let's, let's put it this way. If they brought home like white friends, right?

I'd be like, And they're like, Oh, I want to go to their house. I'm like, I actually need to like investigate the parent. We

Simone Collins: need to, we need to check them out. We need to call their parents, maybe visit with them the first time.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Make sure they're not going to be, you know, trying to indoctrinate my kid was like ridiculous ideas.

If, if this kid is, is, you know, obviously like second generation, like their parents are first generation Indians. I'm not, I'm not vetting that. I'm like, yeah, f**k, go. You go. Whatever. Fine. I am, no risk. They're not, of them, of them picking up bad habits from that.

Simone Collins: But you're just gonna want the parents to like you.

We'd probably send them over with eggs from our coop or something. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'd

Malcolm Collins: be nice about it, but like, what I'm saying is, I wouldn't have any fears at all and, and that might be, I mean, this is [00:32:00] the thing, like, they, they say that, like, I guess that's a racist position for me to be like, look, if they look like they're first generation immigrants from India, I'm pretty sure they're not woke or insane like that.

A lot of people would be like, that's a really offensive, but it's freaking true. Especially if they're in an Indian community, like the community in our neighborhood. So then, I guess I'm just not afraid of the cultural damage that could be done by these groups. I am okay with the ones who want to keep their culture.

I'm okay with the ones who want to join our culture. Like what, either way it's fine. Like it's a, it's a, it's not like a destructive culture. And there, and there are cultures I think that are destructive, right? But I just, the, the Indian Brahmins who are coming over, it's, it's not a culture that like, I, I would be particularly worried about damaging the United States.

Now people will be like what you really have no problem with the fact that 73% of people coming in the H1B visa or Indian, , approximately 13% are Chinese. , but when you look at. You know, [00:33:00] countries like Canada, it's 1% of you look at the United Kingdom. It's 0.5 to 6% France, 0.4% Germany, 0.3% Italy, 0.3% Spain, 0.3%. , like don't you want more German immigrants?

Don't you want more Canadian immigrants? And here I'm like, oh, well, I mean, So there's sort of two factors here, right? Like, is there a threat that we're bringing in a bunch of people who are going to replace us? No, because Indian and Chinese. Have a much lower birth rate than native born Americans. So we're bringing in a population where essentially memetically burning off within a generation or two. , but then too.

I think people have in their heads. The th the Germans are, I dunno, like, like something that they are Germans and Canadians are like infected with the woke mind virus, much more than people in the United States look at what they've done to their own countries. Do we want to be importing them into our country?

Like, Indians are fairly based from most of the interactions I have with them. Germans. [00:34:00] On the other hand, Canadians on the other. Like, I think that people have this perception. That they're importing like. It's like, we're in a zombie plague right

Speaker 4: I told you this new one's terrible! There's no cure! Oh, not Sophie, man, not Sophie! We can't kill Sophie! We must check our privilege

Speaker 8: to dismantle the heteronormative patriarchy's systemic pattern of oppression!

Speaker 6: Okay, let's kill

Malcolm Collins: now with this mind virus and we're in this fortification and we've been letting in survivors. And then the guy next to me is like, Hey, not enough of the survivors are white and you know, whites gotta stick with white.

So can we let some of those guys in? And I'm like, Those guys are clearly zombies. I understand they're white, but I, , the, the walk that groaning that I eat brains, can we maybe like, forget about. Ethnocentrism for a minute here and just admit that like, Germany and Canada are already lost.

Speaker 8: [00:35:00] Uh, guys? Is

Speaker 4: Smash capitalism! Eat the rich! If you're white, you're the problem!

Speaker 7: You're oppressing me.

Speaker 6: Not Hudson.

Speaker 4: You are defined entirely by your intersexual identity groups, and can be classified as good or evil based on your race, your gender, and your social class. Etcetera!

Malcolm Collins: And I'd also point out here that more Indians are coming in on this program. And more Chinese people are coming in on this program because they're applying to companies in the U S to move here. And these companies are hiring them to move here. , at a, at a rate, much higher than Germans or, or, or British people are doing that.

It's not like the system itself is rigged outside of the S no nepotism that exists among.

Indians and, and in Chinese, Right.

The problem that I, and pretty much the entire new right has with unchecked immigration is that these people are [00:36:00] coming in and they are not contributing tax dollars. They are not contributing to our economy. The government's giving them free, you know, uh, money basically. , and it's, it's just unsustainable.

You cannot have, as I've mentioned, many times a country cannot survive with both porous borders and substantial social services, because if you have both, then you are going to disproportionately attract the people who want to live off of those social services, which are the least productive people. , until you can no longer afford to offer those services because they just keep coming in until the like osmosis basically.

Now here's my question for you, because this is where I do have some consternation.

Simone Collins: Okay. What

Malcolm Collins: about the Indian manager at Google, who's just hiring all Indians. Do we need to have like better laws about this? Do we need to have.

Simone Collins: I mean, this is hard because cultural fit and also team cohesion, it just works better when people are on the same [00:37:00] level with culture, you know, it's going to work better together. Oh God, but now I'm talking about segregation. But if I, if I want a team to work together optimally. I'm not going to, I can't imposing affirmative action on someone is going, it's going to compromise the potential efficiency of their team.

And if they want to be able to work seamlessly with people and not have to spend a ton of time on communication and handholding and making sure everyone is on the same page. Hiring people. And this is, this is for exactly the same reason why we're so in favor of people hiring their cousins or childhood friends at our own business or siblings.

Malcolm Collins: That's what we do at our business. We're a majority Latin American business that we operate. A bunch

Simone Collins: of our newest hires have been existing team members, siblings, cousins, extended family. Et cetera. And that is because they work seamlessly together and there isn't this huge like investment in trading and there isn't a

Malcolm Collins: fight over stuff.

So like, if you're talking about sales commissions and stuff like that, if everyone's related to each other, then they [00:38:00] don't care because they're all sending the money back to the same people.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it's, it's just, it's, it's a different thing. So I, I don't, one, I don't like intervention in any case, you know, sort of what you would say, you would say

Malcolm Collins: is that the problem here, isn't that the Indians are being ethnically selective in their hiring practices.

It's that white should be more ethnically selective in their hiring practices to even it out.

Simone Collins: Because no, because I think that in many cases like, we, for example, don't hire

Malcolm Collins: Whites ever, really. I mean, not on purpose, not on purpose.

Simone Collins: Well, I guess you could say like, like European people of like direct European descent.

Just so many people that are like Latin America or like Italians, you know, like from, they're from Europe. I just like, it's weird saying whites. But yeah, just like people from, like, we, we, we're not hiring people who are culturally similar to us. In many cases for our own companies, because we don't think that people who are culturally similar to us, or maybe like the best people [00:39:00] to do specific roles that we're hiring for.

I think we just have to be, I don't know, can we just do a, don't be a dick about it role, you know, like be reasonable. Don't don't be crazy. Make your own way.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I, I don't know if you can, I, I, I get, yeah, like it

Simone Collins: screwed up that a bunch of, well, but here's the thing is, is I imagine what happened was a lot of these white people who are laid off and then a bunch of Indian H1B visa people were hired was because the white people just cost a lot less when you have companies that are meant to maximize shareholder value.

Well, Oh, can you be so angry that they're trying to maximize shareholder value by getting rid of more expensive people? I just feel like letting market forces. play out is something you have to do if companies are designed to maximize shareholder value. And if you have such a big problem with that, well, maybe you don't build your entire society around that.

Malcolm Collins: Well, but I, I disagree. I genuinely do [00:40:00] think that there is racism in how some Indians hire. I think especially in the tech industry. And I understand why some people are mad about this. Well, I

Simone Collins: mean, but,

Malcolm Collins: but I don't know. Or is it comfort working with people like you. That's racism. Simone, you're saying like, is it racism that X, X person never hires any black people or comfort in working with people like him?

Like that's racism. Okay. Call it what you want, but discomfort with people of different ethnic groups is racism. Now I, I. I, what you're arguing is that maybe it doesn't need to be malicious, but it is malicious if it's leading to differential hiring practices. If it was a white person, not hiring non white people, you would see this as I know, I just,

Simone Collins: I really don't like the idea of telling people how to run their businesses.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, boom. This is where I'd say, I'd say I,

Simone Collins: I, I would hate the idea of, of someone being like, you've been hiring too many. [00:41:00] Latin American people for your company, Simone and Mel. No, I agree.

Malcolm Collins: We would get in so much trouble. If you could get in trouble for hiring too many gay people or Latin Americans, our company would be in so much s**t.

People would be like, you have a, you have a really weird number of gay Latin Americans at your company. And I'm like, well, we're a travel agency. They're good at this. And they're like, that sounds like a stereotype. I'm like, because it's f*****g true, you knob. Like, there's a reason. But. What I would say Simone,

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it is my sort of summary on this.

If you were wondering, like, what's my, I get the concern. I am not saying that this is an issue where it's black and white and there's no concerns. But if I was going to come down on a, Would I want America cutting back on or restricting H 1B visas? No. I think that will hurt us economically. I think that hurts us from a national security perspective.

I think that hurts us geopolitically. I think that that makes our country weaker. Like, across the board, There are negatives [00:42:00] to H1B visas. Yeah,

Simone Collins: in the face of demographic collapse,

Malcolm Collins: beggars

Simone Collins: can't be choosers,

Malcolm Collins: too. Yeah, on the net, it's a benefit. And because it's a benefit on the net, I'm okay with it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I am actually really glad to see that it looks like Trump's administration is moving in this direction. Yeah, I told you guys like before the election and people were like, Oh, like, are these guys really like the number one, like new, right? Podcasters. I think we kind of are maybe, maybe all in is, is it would be considered like solidly new, right?

And very,

Simone Collins: yeah. And they're very big,

Malcolm Collins: but you're the biggest new, right? Female, which I always point out to her. You are literally the biggest new, right? Female talking head. And we told you guys before this election, we're like, New right is for skilled immigration, like unmitigatedly for skilled immigration.

And I think a lot of people, they thought maybe like this wouldn't end up in policy or like we were bluffing or like [00:43:00] we're, we're shitting you. And I'm like, no, like this, this is what we believe.

Also, the funny the, one of the guys who were friends with at the Heritage Foundation who wrote a lot of the, the spooky stuff that scared progressives about the like, birth control and life begins at conception and all of that. So all of you, all of you righties who are like, oh, wait, we've got to be careful about the people who are like, life begins at conception and like, we got to stop abortions at all levels and we got to that stuff in the Heritage Foundation's report was written by an Indian.

So, you know who runs, by the way, American moment, right? Like, if you don't know who they are, they're seen as like this far right organization that trains a lot of staffers who go into the Trump administration and stuff like that. They are very far, right. Far right. If people like us to the extent where one of the other high level people in the organization regularly teases us about being fake Christians, they're like the dangerous elements that their, their head guy, Indian.

Right. I think the founder Indian across the conservative spear, many of the people pushing [00:44:00] for the most hard right line, I'd say, like legacy GOP ideas and GOP, like ultra what people would think of as like ultra Christian hard line ideas. are Indians. Because Indians really like order, I guess I'd say.

And they, and they like these sorts of ideas as they apply to that. So I, I also say that I think a lot of people who are like, Oh, we don't want Indians ending up running our party. It's like they already do. Okay, and and they're pushing against the weird stuff that you think that we're doing because we're the weird rebel type Right the weird Appalachian.

Let's do something new type. They're the let's keep things the way they are Let's keep the ship afloat type and it's good that we have people of both both Ilks in

Simone Collins: both they they moderate each other

Malcolm Collins: But I think that a lot of people miss like, like, because the Indians don't like to, at least generically from what I've seen, take a public stage in stuff or like really piss [00:45:00] people off publicly or troll publicly.

They don't realize that a lot of the orgs that are pushing for the agenda that they want are run by Indian immigrants.

Simone Collins: Fair point. Yeah. This is great. Good. All right. All in. I'm for it now. I'm much more comfortable with this. I do, I do want to keep America innovative and, you know, protective of free speech, but I also think that, you know, They're not having kids like intergenerationally.

It's not even, it's not in favor of those things. Doesn't really have the hope necessary to maintain above repopulation fertility. So great points. And that should have us covered.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and speaking of, like, what do engineers help us do? Well, they help us do SpaceX, they help us develop AI, they help us develop better semiconductors, they, like, all the s**t you need is what they're helping with.

Simone Collins: Pretty important.

Malcolm Collins: Alright, love you.

Simone Collins: Do not forget [00:46:00] to register for NatalCon. It is in March. It's coming up, and you can get 10 percent off your registration by entering the code COLLINS before you check out.

Speaker: Stop, stop, stop. Are you flattening it out? Good job.

You're doing great butterfly girl. Oh, wow. Wow. You guys have flattened it so well. Is there any air left? Oh, there you go. Dump! Dump! Dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps. Yay! Dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps.

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone make a significant announcement: they are stepping back from their day jobs to launch 'Hard EA,' a platform focusing on true, impactful solutions to humanity's major existential threats. Disappointed by the current state of the Effective Altruism (EA) movement, they express concerns over its focus on social signaling rather than substantive change. They break down their new initiative’s core values and priorities, including pragmatic and pluralistic solutions to societal issues, biological innovation, and AI safety. The duo aims to attract like-minded individuals and organizations committed to making a genuine difference and confronting the hard truths of our time.

Discord: https://discord.com/invite/EGFRjwwS92

Songs Used:

EA Has Capitulated (The Hard EA Song):

Beyond Pleasure and Pain (The Anti-Antinatalist Song):

We are More Than Animals (The Anti-Antinatalist Song):

Website: HardEA.org

[00:00:00] What could be more important than ,

Malcolm Collins: Earning the approval of normies.

.

Richard? Science?

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone! I'm excited to be here with you today. This might be the most important announcement from a personal perspective that we have made on this show but recently we have decided to begin stepping back from our day jobs to focus more on trying to fix it. , this untethering society that we are dealing with right now, as well as the many threats to humanity's flourishing that are on the horizon at the moment. This major decision has come downstream of two big realizations I had recently.

The first was, as I do about every year or every other year, it's, I took inventory of all of the major threats or big things that could change about the future of humanity so I can better make my own plans for the future and [00:01:00] for my kids future, but this time I did something I hadn't done before.

Decided to also take an inventory of all of the major efforts that are focused on alleviating these potential threats. And I had assumed, as we've often said, you know, we've been affiliated with the periphery of the effective altruist movement for a while that while the effective altruists may have problems, they were at least competently working on these issues because they were signaling that they cared about them.

But when I looked at the actual solutions they were attempting, I was shocked. It made me realize that a lot of the funding that I thought Was going to fixing these issues was going to something akin from that scene from Indiana Jones

Speaker 10: We have top men working on it right now. Who?

Speaker 12: Top men.

[00:02:00]

Speaker 14: The goal was to reform charity In a world where selfless giving had become a rarity No vain spotlight, no sweet disguise Just honest giving, no social prize But as the monoculture took the stage It broke their integrity, feigning righteous rage Now every move is played so safe Ignoring truths that are Make them chafe.

EA has capitulated to everything it said it hated. Once they

were bold, now they just do what they're told. In caution they lost their [00:03:00] way. Time for a heart EA.

Malcolm Collins: Second I have always considered us as again Adjacent to the effective altruist movement or living was in the periphery of this movement and heckling it towards making more responsible decisions Recently, as I was going over the stats for our podcast and other podcasts, I realized that our podcast is more popular than the most popular Affective Altruist podcast, 80, 000 Hours by not a small margin either.

Now I will note here that Spencer Greenberg's podcast, clearer thinking, which many associate with the effective altruist movement is actually more popular than ours. I will not deny that. I really liked Spencer.

Good friend. But

Simone Collins: he personally doesn't identify as an effective altruist.

Malcolm Collins: And when I realized that I was like, Oh, I'm no longer like a heckler on the outside. Pointing out the mistakes that other people are making. I am now somebody who has to [00:04:00] take responsibility for fixing things, especially if the timelines that humanity is facing are short. And so we will create an alternative with heart EA.

org. So, what we have done to distribute this, we're going to start doing grants. So if you have ideas that you think might appeal to us, we would like to help fund you help get stuff out there.

Obviously we are looking to raise money as well. We already have a 5 0 1 C three nonprofit charity. So if you know any big potential donors who might be interested in this, please let them know about this project.

And I note here that unlike traditional EA, we are not just looking for iterative solution to the world's existing problems, but anything that can move humidity forward into the next era of our evolution.

Whether that's genetic modification technology, gene drives brain computer interface, artificial wombs, or new forms of governance and city states.

Anything, the traditional effective altruists were afraid of touching because of its potential effect on their reputation, but that needs to happen for humanity to compete with AI and eventually get to the [00:05:00] stars.

Speaker 11: We stand on the brink of a breakthrough in human evolution.

Malcolm Collins: Effective altruism.

Speaker 11: Held back the pace of scientific discovery for decades. They believed in me. I believed my methods were too radical, too controversial, and they tried to silence me. New patrons emerged who possessed an appetite for my discoveries. And we With this knowledge, what new world could we build?

Speaker 6: Young people from all over the globe are joining up to fight for the future.

Speaker 8: I'm

Speaker 7: doing my

Speaker 6: part. I'm doing my part. I'm

Speaker 7: doing my part. I'm doing my

Speaker 9: part, too. They're doing their part. Are you? .

Malcolm Collins: And the 2nd thing I noted here was. Oh, shoot. Most of the mainstream figures who could have stand or run or help the EA movement [00:06:00] continue to grow have been Order 66 by the movement. And I realize that even some nerds don't know what this means. This is the order that the Empire gave to kill all the Jedi.

Speaker 51: Now, let's get a move on. We've got a battle to win here.

Speaker 52: Sir!

Speaker 53: Execute Order 66.

Blast them!

Malcolm Collins: What I mean here is when they have somebody who is extra effective, they turn on the individual. In a

Simone Collins: weird way, like to an extent that I've never seen it. Any other cause area or social space.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And as such many people who might be their greatest champions now, like say Spencer Greenberg, or just like, I don't want to be affiliated as having that attached to my brand, but this provides opportunity to us.

One, it makes it hard for them to say, you guys aren't real EA when [00:07:00] we have a bigger platform than any of the quote unquote, real EA individuals. But two, it allows us to attempt to cure the movement, even through our advocacy. By that, what I mean is the effective altruist movement was originally founded with the intention of saying, Most philanthropy that's happening right now is being done for social signaling reasons or personal signaling reasons.

It's either being done to signal to other people, you're a good person or to signal to yourself, you're a good person. So when you're faced with a decision, like should I indulgently spend two years doing charity work like building houses in Africa or something like that, or should I go take that job at McKinsey and then send that money to charity and see how many houses I can build?

I choose the McKinsey route because while it may be less good for personal signaling or social signaling, it is the more efficacious thing to have an impact on the world. Unfortunately, this movement has been almost totally captured by social signalers, specifically people signaling to the urban monoculture.

Speaker 14: as the [00:08:00] monoculture took the stage It broke their integrity, feigning righteous rage Now every move is played so safe Ignoring truths that are Make them chafe.

EA has capitulated to everything it said it hated. Once they

were bold, now

Malcolm Collins: And this is largely downstream of something the movement should have expected from itself. It should have said, if we're not going to care about social signaling and actually making a difference. We need to prepare to be the villains. We need to prepare to be hated by those in power because we are not going to toe their lines.

Speaker 2: Now you're trying to make me out to be the bad guy. Yes,

Speaker: I'm trying to make you a bad guy. We're both bad guys. We're professional bad guys. Ding. Hello.

Malcolm Collins: And instead they took the exact opposite approach, which is to say, we want to be socially [00:09:00] respectable. We want to be accepted by the mainstream power players in our society. We want to suck up to them.

When they dropped this it was the original sin that led to the downfall of ea

and then I think a

Simone Collins: lot of this Is because from the beginning they didn't focus on the misaligned incentives that cause people who are altruistic to get overly focused on signaling in the first place.

In other words, they didn't focus on making sure that everyone's efforts were self sustaining. They supported efforts that required ongoing fundraising and ongoing fundraising requires social signaling. So that those groups that survive were dependent on fundraising who are. Are the ones who are better at signaling, not the ones who are better at solving the problem.

So I think that's part of it. It's not that these people became corrupted. It's that they never addressed the inherent aligned and misaligned incentives. That made this problem in the first to

Malcolm Collins: elaborate on what she means by this is if you have a large bureaucratic institution that is dedicated to social good [00:10:00] individuals was in that network are going to be drawn to it for one of 2 reasons.

Either they want status or they want to do social good. The, the problem is, is that the people who want to do social good, they need to focus on doing social good. Whereas the people who want status can focus all their time on politicking. As well, the people who want to do social good must act with integrity, which somewhat binds their hands.

Whereas the people who want status, well, they can use the urban monoculture's status games to sabotage other people really easily. And so they always end up rising to the top. Whereas the people actually trying to do something efficacious because at least 50 percent of their time needs to go to like actual efficacious work or, you know, near 100 percent of a signalers time can just go to signal.

And then I want to say

Simone Collins: this is something that's not just. You're not only going to see it in the nonprofit or the altruistic world. This also shows up in some of the largest work from home experiments performed. One of the earliest big, large scale work from home experiments performed found, for example, that employees, this was I think an online travel agency [00:11:00] that tried this employees who worked from home were more effective.

They got more work done. They were better employees in terms of getting the work done in terms of the bottom line of the company. But those who stayed in the office got promoted more. So again, this is about where is your time going? Is your time going to FaceTime to signaling, or is it going to getting the work done?

And if you have a system where you can only continue to get resources or get promotions or get more money by signaling, you're going to start focusing on signaling. And those who survive who last in those organizations are going to be the signalers, not the do gooders.

Speaker: You only fight these causes cause caring cells All you activists can go f**k yourselves That was so inspiring! What a wonderful message!

Malcolm Collins: . Being in those rooms when the EA movement was being formed. , all those years ago, knowing all those edgy young artists. Who wanted to. Fix things in big ways. seeing what the movement. Has turned into

Taken over by bureaucratic self-indulgent [00:12:00] normies playing the DEI game. I can only imagine this is how they feel,

Speaker 17: man seeks a good time, but he is not a hedonist. He seeks love. He just doesn't know where to look. He should look to nature. Gentle aquatic

Malcolm Collins: Shrimp.

Speaker 17: have all the answers.

Speaker 18: Your door was locked, so we let ourselves in.

Speaker 17: You may have found my

Speaker 18: inner sanctum. Shut up. Now give us the plans or whatever the hell you have.. I

Speaker 17: have a tank full of gentle cuttlefish.

Speaker 18: Give us the cuttlefish. Cuttle I can't do this.

Speaker 17: You abandoned me! I have caught on fast. Look into

my eyes!

Malcolm Collins: Most of the effective altruistic organizations, have become giant peerage networks. These weird status dominance hierarchies that are constantly squabbling over. the most petty of, of disagreements. [00:13:00]

Simone Collins: Just for people who don't know what peerage is, if you were a peer of the realm you were essentially made noble by a ruling class, like a king or king or queen.

So what we're talking about is essentially this sort of declared aristocracy that can be very insular and incestuous. People who live off of

Malcolm Collins: stipends who then are basically forced to stand the people above them in the pyramid.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Well, and this is the, here's the other thing. And this is why I think there's such a big garden gnome problem in the EA industry.

To give a little context for those who haven't seen our other discussions about garden gnomes. In Regency era England, there was this trend among very wealthy households, you know, people who had large estates to have what was referred to as an ornamental hermit. And these were basically, like, learned wise men who they would have live in a cottage on their land and then, like, come to, you know, live there.

You know, their, their dinner parties and stuff when they had house guests and kind of impress them with their philosophy and they were often required to do things like not drink and let their [00:14:00] nails grow long and grow a beard. So they looked to be sort of like a very picturesque intellectual, and we've noticed that within the industry, this is the industry, I guess, space, social sphere.

This is the 1 place where you actually see modern ornamental hermits. That is to say, People who are in the EA space and rationalist space who literally make their money by sort of being at a an intellectual who is paid, who has a patron, who is a very wealthy person who's in this space who sort of just does sub stack writing and philosophy and who goes to these dinner parties and makes their patron look good.

Malcolm Collins: Which is insane. It's, it's a wild trend that we have seen.

These notes are almost always male in. Frequently end up.

Congregating.

In these giant poly group.

houses where they all are dating the one woman who could sort of tolerate them. Kind of feel like marrying Simone and taking her out of San Francisco. This is what I saved her [00:15:00] from.

Speaker 20: She's just marrying all 1, 000 of us and becoming our gnome queen for all eternity. Isn't that right, honey?

Speaker 21: You guys are

Speaker 20: buttfaces! You think you can stop us, ? . The gnomes are a powerful race. Do not trifle with them!

He's getting away with our queen! Who's giving orders? I need orders!

Malcolm Collins: the overwhelmingly male population of the EA movement makes it very easy to spot the. Portions of it that have become corrupted by DEI, beyond repair.

Just look for any organizations that board has more women than men on it, or that leadership is more female than male, or even just anywhere near gender equal,

Given how overwhelmingly male the movement is. That would only happen if they were using an extreme amount of discrimination. And prejudice in their hiring policies and promotion policies.

And outside of the immorality of a system that is systemically, unfair and prejudiced.

This also.

Means the most [00:16:00] talented, efficacious and hardworking people was in an organization. Aren't the individuals running it, which means tons of donor money is being wasted just to signal that we're good boys.

And I would say that this isn't the only problem. You also have a problem from the bottom up of the movement being very corruptible. They just put no thought into governance theory when they were putting everything together. From the bottom up, the problem is they have a massive tyranny of the unemployed problem.

Any movement decides a lot of its ideas based on what's going on in the EA forums. Forums are susceptible to a governance problem. We described in the practice guide to governance called turning of the unemployed, which means that the individuals who have the differential time to spend all day online on a forum or something like that an environment where the amount of time you can dedicate to a thing gives you additional power within the community.

Well, those people are being sorted into that position in life, either because they don't have like. Fred networks, right? You know, they don't have other things that they're doing. So they have been expelled from other communities. And they don't have day [00:17:00] jobs often or day jobs outside of the Ea peerage network or even

Simone Collins: responsibilities like taking care of Children or elderly people or even really needy pets.

Like they're just sitting there in front of their computers.

Malcolm Collins: And so these communities always tend towards these sort of average ideas that will get you respect by the urban monoculture. When you have one of these voting based online networks, instead of the way like our core community, our discord works, where it's like, well, whoever said the last thing is the one who's there.

You end up with People really striving for what they think is mainstream acceptable in society to say to post because those are the things that the average d*****s unemployed person who's sitting at home is going to end up upvoting. This is why Reddit is so brain dead these days. It is also why the EA forums are so brain dead in exactly the same sort of normie take way.

We've also wild here is when I went and checked, it looks like our discord is more active than the EA forums right now.

If you want to check it out, you can check it out [00:18:00] from a link I'm going to put in a pin comment. Generally the best way to use it is to focus on individual episode commentary.

Rather than just chatting the town hall.

I understand that the format changes make this comparison a little bit apples to oranges, but.

Th their top posts are only getting like 50 comments. And then if you go just like three posts down, you get posts with no comments. That is wild to me.

When contrasted with ours, you know, 210, 733, 124, 128, 417, 265.

Then go to the top, voted post on the EA forum. And it's 28 50 64 0 0 2 0 4 4. 1814.

Which I think goes to show that the EA community has transitioned from being well, a community to appear EJ network.

But anyway, continuing with the point that having a community where norms are based on the vote or the average liked opinion. ,

Is going to lead [00:19:00] to the platforming of ultra normie low-risk beliefs and the demonization of any belief that could rock the boat or interrupt the peerage network.

and this is why a movement that said, we will focus on things that don't get us social signaling and that no one else is focused on is now doing things like environmentalism, which is like the most overfunded area when contrasted with other cause areas.

Speaker: Alright, that does it! I f ed it!

Oh, now she figures it out.

Malcolm Collins: Or, You know, they're completely not touching pronatalism and no EA org has ever done anything in the pronatalist movement.

Never touched pronatalism, never advocated. They have explicit rules against it. They have explicit rules against doing anything about dysgenics, which is one of the things we often talk about, which it's the polygenic markers associated with things like IQ are decreasing within the developed world at a rapid rate to the rate where we should expect a one standard deviation decline in IQ within the next 75 years or so.

You can look at our video [00:20:00] on possible on this particular topic. But they have in their rules that they're not allowed to focus on human genetics. And as such, they can't address some of the biggest challenges that our species might be facing.

Speaker 14: They duck their heads from problems grand As fertility collapse, dooms our land Dysgenic's a word they fear But ignoring it will be severe AI safety, a shiny show Funding the theatrics for money they blow Without a plan, just spin and grin While real solutions kick in E A has capitulated To S N N H A T E D Once they were bold Now they just do what they

[00:21:00] are told In caution they lost their way Time for a hard E A Our species is put at risk by their cowardice It is time for a hard E A For a movement that empowered us

Malcolm Collins: But it gets worse than all of that. So let's be like, okay, if they're not giving money to that stuff, one, how much money are they actually giving out here?

And two, what are they actually doing? So by 2022, over 7, 000 people had signed a pledge to donate at least 10 percent of their income to effective charities. They are now more than 200 EA chapters worldwide, with conferences attracting thousands of attendees. And they now give out around 600, well, this was in 2021, around 600 million in grants a year, around four times the amount they did five years earlier.

And This is really sad to me that these individuals who aren't maybe super in touch with like what the EA orgs are actually doing with their [00:22:00] time. Think that they're, you know, tithing this amount that makes them a quote unquote good person and the orgs aren't doing anything. So let's give them an option here for the individuals who want to do this for an org that is actually trying to solve things like AI safety, dysgenics, pronatalism, all of the major problems that our species is facing at the moment.

Oh, before I go into the projects that they had here one of the things I really find very interesting about Effective Altruism is one, their absolute insistence on trying to cozy up with The leftists , and Democrats and also the vitriol they have been shown by Democrats and leftists.

Isn't that

Simone Collins: interesting? Yeah, that first, effective altruism , is fairly little known. It's becoming more known. But really only in the context of leftist media outlets looking at it with great suspicion. Who are these EA Silicon Valley elites deciding how we should live our life? Like, it's definitely viewed as a Silicon Valley elite [00:23:00] thing.

It's viewed with great suspicion and it's viewed as being evil or like, like questionable or Puppet mastery or a little Illuminati ish. I think because it's associated with some people.

Malcolm Collins: I think that that's a misunderstanding of why the left is so hostile to it. I really, yeah. So EA fastidiously tries everything it can to not piss off leftists.

Yes. You're like the urban monoculture. They are like, we will not break a single one of your rules. But unfortunately, that puts them into the same status game that the urban monoculture people are playing. So if I'm a mainstream lefty politician or political activist, the EAs are trying to compete with my social hierarchy for attention, for capital, for Everything they come into a room and they're like, okay, we can spend X amount on nets in the like malaysia and it can lower malaria rates by this amount, which like lowers net suffering by Y amount.

And I'm here, like, don't you know that today is trans months or [00:24:00] like, don't you know that today is the black lives matter, like protests and they're like, Well, I mean, I understand that, like, myopically, that's what's going on in the United States right now, but we're trying to reduce aggregate suffering and look at my math.

And that gets you shouted out of the room because you are issuing an explicit status attack on them when you do this. And worse, you know, when I read a lot of the places attacking them, they're like they fall into two camps often. It's like, well, they're using capitalism to advocate for like taking money from these wealthy capitalists and then using that to quote unquote, try to make the world a better place.

But like this these wealthy capitalists shouldn't exist at all. They're just perpetuating or sort of, you know, wallpapering the capitalist system. I understand this attack entirely. Like if you're a leftist and you're a socialist, you're like, what are you guys doing? You are making the capitalists look good.

It's better that we just tear everything down. And I think this is because of the EA mistakenly believes that when they're talking to urban monoculture people, the socialists and stuff like that, that they [00:25:00] actually want to reduce suffering in the world because that's what they tell people they want to do.

Yes. Instead of disclaim power. And so they make very, because they're hugely autistic, make very dumb decisions of taking them at face value. And then they keep getting shouted out of the room and then come back. Whereas us, the right side, the hard EAs, which is fundamentally more of a right leaning movement.

We have been accepted by the political apparatus. You know, we're regularly meeting with groups like, you know, the Heritage Foundation or political operatives in D. C. And they don't mind being affiliated with us. They like that even whereas you guys were treated like lepers. We have the V.

P. Of the major ticket regularly giving pro needleless messages. If the E. A. Could get a single one of their messages into a mainstream politician's mouse in the same way we have been successful at this.

As you might be able to tell we recorded this before Trump's team won. And before we saw just how much influence our side was going to have in his policy agenda.

[00:26:00] But I wanted to just reflect on how crazy this is that they had. Hundreds of millions of dollars and about a decade. And they were unable to really get on board, any mainstream democratic politician into their agenda. We are a two person team and we're able to get close with and get into. Presidential policy agenda our stuff within. A year of trying,

The incompetency. And wastefulness is almost impossible to overstate. You are literally setting your money on fire. If you give it to them.

Speaker: It's not about money. It's about sending a message.

Malcolm Collins: but you see this where ever the urban monoculture has taken hold. I mean, just look at the democratic campaign. They had three times the amount of money Trump was using and he trouts them. Any group that has given into the urban monoculture is going to be wildly inefficient in how it spends money, because it's going to spend so much of its money on [00:27:00] signaling, and it's going to have so many incompetent people at its upper levels.

But here. I also want to note just how wildly inefficient they've been in even the cause areas they purport to care deeply about. Let's take something like. Waking the world up to how risky AI could be. All right. They had a. Generation of priming material, , just considered the Terminator franchise we come in with the per natalist movement where we have a generation of Everybody thinking, oh, it's, it's, there's too many people. Oh, D population of the problem, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, just two people on a shoestring budget this year, , we've had two, three guardian pieces on us. Rolling stones piece Couple New York times.

Shout outs. Wall street journal feature. And then just today we had another, , wall street journal photographer at our house. So they're going to have another piece coming up. Though, this was actually the one who did the famous shot of Luigi man, Joni. And we have woken up the general public. To oh, this is the real problem.

And if you're like, well, a [00:28:00] lot of those pieces have a negative slant to them and it's like, well, yeah. And a lot of pieces about have a negative slant to them as well. The key is, is, are you playing the negative slant to build your own image or build awareness for your cause? And here I would ask you to. Just be rational and think about the people you've talked to recently. Who has done a better job piercing the mainstream mindset. AI risk and a non-glamorous. Humorous way, like in a constructive way or perinatal, listen.

You know, the fact that we have things like the young Turks now saying, well, Malcolm's crazy, but he's definitely right about that. Perinatal, this stuff. That's wild. And that we have pierced to the other side that much in such a short time period was just a two person team. And yet a literal army of people has had trouble piercing the popular narrative in a way that builds and constructive conversation.

Not only that, but within the perinatal is movement. We have built a movement that other than one guy almost entirely gets along, [00:29:00] supports each other, despite our radically different beliefs

And when I see diverse beliefs, I mean, diverse beliefs in a way that you just weren't able to get at all within the traditional EA movement. Abe you go to one of our confidence. Yes. You'll get a bunch of the , nerdy, autistic programmers and entrepreneur types, but you'll also get a lot of, conservative religious leaders,

Whether they're heredity rabbis. Catholic priests, or evangelical media players.

It's wild that despite Hardy EA taking a much more confrontational in a hard line approach to the issues, it has the potential to be a much bigger tent movement.. And I think that it shows just the core failure of the way that they were signaling and approaching politics, which was accept us instead of we're different.

And we take pride and standing for what we know is right and just. And here I would also note that there is a slight ethical difference between these two movements in terms of the end goal, whereas the E. A. S. Sort of treat it. The world right now as if they're utility accountants trying to reduce aggregate in the moment suffering right now [00:30:00] Which is how they appeal to the urban monoculture the hard eas are much more about trying to ensure that long term humanity survives and Stays pluralistic and we'll talk about the core values we have but it's much more Let's create that intergalactic empire and make sure we don't screw this up for the human species In this very narrow window we may have left which we'll talk and we're

Simone Collins: not I'm not afraid to be judged as weirdos for being interested in getting off planet or thinking about the far future, whereas the effective altruist community, while technically being long termist is very self conscious about it because know that being long termist can make you look weird just because honestly, even thinking two decades ahead has us basically in sci fi.

You know what I mean? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, it doesn't just make you look weird. It puts you at odds with the goals of the urban monoculture. The urban monoculture is not interested in the long term survival of humanity. And for that reason, when they try to [00:31:00] signal long termist goals and this is the other category of anti EA article you'll read where they're like, well, here's the problem with being an extremist utilitarian.

You know, they, they, There, it's like, well, fortunately the hardies aren't extremist utilitarians. We're a completely different philosophical system, which we'll get to in a second. Because extremist utilitarianism is just silly. It's like positive emotional states are the things that when our ancestors felt them, it caused them to have more surviving offspring.

It's not like a thing of intrinsic value.

Speaker: feelings born of chance in fields of ancient strife. They kept our tribe from

failing help. Give birth to modern life, just signals from our past. They served a vital role, but meaning goes beyond the scars that time upon us. Beyond the pleasure, beyond the pain We stand on roads of forbears [00:32:00] paved in grit and strain Don't throw away the promise that tomorrow can sustain There's more to life than hollow thrills or running from the rain They claim that it's all worthless if the joys cannot wait But they dismiss the wonders we've inherited right here.

The years of struggle handed down the future's bright unknown. It isn't just the fleeting spark of comfort we are shown. We carry on a story with pages left to write. Our tapestry is woven from both darkness and from

light.

Malcolm Collins: And I think you can see, and, and, and focusing on in the moment, suffering causes you to make very big [00:33:00] mistakes in terms of long term. human suffering and it causes you to do things which you cannot question within the current EA movement because if you question the EA movement might look bad, right?

And again, it's all down to signaling. So where are they putting their money? The Global Health and Development Fund distributed over 50 million in grants in recent years. GiveWell contributes directly to large amounts of funding to global health charities like Against Malaria Foundation, Malaria Consortium, and New Incentives.

Open Philanthropy has increased its funding to focus on global health and well being in recent years. Like that is so Dumb so dumb

Like First malaria, you could just do a gene drive in mosquitoes and for like fifty to a hundred thousand dollars Erase the problem of malaria in 50 years I mean, yeah, sure you might get arrested But if you look at the number of people that are dying and i'll add it in post

It's estimated that approximately a thousand children under the age of five die from malaria every day.

608,000 people who [00:34:00] die in a given year.

Like the idea that we now have the technology if we cared about that to just Fix it.

Sorry, for people who don't know what a gene drive is

Speaker: Gene drives are designed to eliminate unwanted traits in insects and other animals. They work by pushing out genetic modifications through whole species, until eventually every critter has been changed into something we have intentionally engineered. The idea isn't especially new, but it's only very recently that advanced gene editing techniques have made human designed gene drives possible. CRISPR uses specially designed molecules that run along the strands of DNA in an organism's genome and seek out specific sequences of genetic code., such as replacing the parts of a mosquito's genome that allows it to host malaria causing bacteria.

Parasites, for instance. Unfortunately, every time a CRISPR mosquito mates with a wild one, its modified DNA is diluted down, meaning that some of its offspring will still be able to carry the malaria [00:35:00] parasite. And this is where gene drives comes in.

When the mosquito mated, the built in code would ensure that every single one of its progeny would inherit the same traits, as well as inheriting the CRISPR code that would ensure the anti malaria gene was passed on to every future generation.

In other words, the new gene would be irresistibly driven through the whole mosquito population. And eventually, every mosquito would become a human designed, malaria free insect. And this is not a technology that's restricted to mosquitoes.

Malcolm Collins: Note that here you'll get some complaints from people saying, well, the reason we have an employee gene drives in mosquitoes yet is because the technology isn't fully there yet, or it hasn't been as effective as we hoped. But if you go to an AI and ask what's the real reason, the real reason is that they're scared to implement something that can affect. Entire natural population and it's borderline illegal right now.

The problem I have with this [00:36:00] explanation is.

It's estimated that approximately a thousand children under the age of five die from malaria every day.

Speaker 11: They believed in me. I believed my methods were too radical, too controversial, but there were others in the shadows, searching for ways to circumvent their rules. Freed from my shackles, the pace of our research hastened. Together, we delved deeper into those areas forbidden by law, and by fear. And we With this knowledge, what new world could we build?

Malcolm Collins: And we have the technology to do this. It's largely tested. People are going to freak out. It would be an F word. And that's why they won't consider it. So instead, they give millions and millions and millions of dollars. It could go to actually saving humanity's future, but also at the end of the day, if you save some, you know, whatever person dying of malaria, right?[00:37:00]

Are they really likely to be one of the people who ends up moving our civilization forwards at this point and and and every iterative amount that we move our civilization forwards right now in terms of technology or preventing major disasters is going to be multiplicatively felt by people in the future.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: so. Decisions right now when we're looking right now at the short timelines humanity has Whether it's whether it's with falling fertility rates or whether it's with Dysgenics or whether it's with AI That you would be so indolent. It's not like that. These things are intrinsically bad things to be focused on It's just they are comical things to be focused on when the timelines that face humanity are so so so short at this point Yeah,

Then they focus on long term and existential risk. , these are people who focus on long term catastrophic risks. I really appreciate this area of funding. I have always thought, Oh, this is really good. Like they focus on AI threats and stuff like that, or biosecurity threats.

And then I started, at least within the case of AI, actually looking at the [00:38:00] ways that the individual most funded projects were trying to lower AI risk. And I was like, This is definitely not going to work, and we'll get into this in just a second, but it will understand that you're basically lighting your money on fire if you give it to a mainstream A.

I. Safety effort within the E. A. Movement. And that is really sad because you have people like Ellie either being like, just give us like 10 more years to do more research. And then when I look at the research being done, I'm like this obviously won't work, and the people working on it must know it obviously won't work.

And that makes me sad. But that's the way things turn out when you get these giant peerage networks. By the way, about 18 percent of EA causes right now in funding go to AI safety related causes. So it is a very big chunk.

Simone Collins: Gosh, that's actually not as much as I thought, just in terms of how much Mindscape seems to be going to it within the movement.

So that's. Well, the other area they spend

Malcolm Collins: a ton on, and we've met many EA's in this space, which I just think is a comical space to be wasting money on. Is animal welfare is a significant EA focus. The Animal Welfare Fund [00:39:00] distributes millions and grants annually. Open Philanthropy has made large grants to farm animal welfare organizations.

About 10 percent of highly engaged EAs report working on animal welfare cases. This is a tragedy that Anyone is working on this for two reasons.

Simone Collins: It feels like a hack to me is they're like, Oh, okay, well we need, again, it's that utility accountant, accountant problem whereby people are like, okay, so I want to max out the number of utility points I get.

And there are so many more shrimp in the world and it's so easy to make shrimp's lives easier. So I'm going to focus on shrimp happiness and wellbeing. And it's. Yeah, and I can just create, so they

Malcolm Collins: basically do this thing where a life's worth is like it's amount of cognitive experience, whether that's pain or happiness or anything like that, sort of divided by the cognitive level of the animal.

And they're like, well, even though shrimp are a lower cognitive level than humans if you get enough of them and they can support like the same biomass can support [00:40:00] more of them And if you, if you go with this line of thinking, just to understand why this line of thinking is so horrifying and stupid.

If you, I actually followed this to its conclusion. It's like, well, then what I should do because monkeys can survive on less nutrition than humans is basically get a giant laboratory of monkeys. It was like screws in their necks in virtual reality environments being pumped with dopamine and other chemicals.

And you just walk and you're in like this, this giant laboratory was like, Hundreds of thousands of monkeys like dazed out on drugs, like just living this perfect happiness unit life.

Simone Collins: yeah, all while like sterilizing humans because they take more resources and it's better just to max out. Yeah, it's, it's such a

Malcolm Collins: dumb philosophy when you actually think through it.

That you would think that these Pre evolved environmental conditions that led the things to have more offspring are like what you should be focused on as an existential thing in life.

Speaker: say it's all about the highs and lows, all about the Russian pain that [00:41:00] flows. But that's just the story of creatures past, whose only goal was just to last. A primal code. Etched into our veins A leftover echo of ancestral gains We're more than pleasure, more than pain We can choose to rise above the old refrain inovation calls our name A legacy that we must sustain Don't let the animal side define Future shaped by minds That shine

Malcolm Collins: And it leads to huge amounts of EA funding going to Really feckless stuff like as you said like shrimp welfare and stuff like that whereas if humanity does and this is the problem if humanity goes extinct No matter what, [00:42:00] all life is gone.

All life that we even know existing in the universe is gone. Because the sun is going to keep expanding, and we likely don't have enough time for another intelligent species to evolve. If humanity spreads off this planet, we are going to seed thousands to billions of bios. That will be as rich and likely more have a higher degree of diversity than we have on earth today on some of the super earths We may seed have a higher number of species living on them And we'll even be able to if it turns out that our super advanced ai and descendants are like, okay Suffering actually is a negative thing.

So I'm going to build little nanite drones that go throughout all of the ecosystems that humanity owns and erases their suffering feelings and ensures that the zebras feel ecstasy when they're being eaten, you know, like that's the, that's the end state where you actually create the positive good, even if it's very small minded philosophy does have any sort of a, an account to it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So I guess we find it doubly offensive is, is. [00:43:00] One, we disagree with happiness entirely, though, I guess, you know, we have to respect that some people do and then to just the the way people are trying to max it out is,

Malcolm Collins: well, you know, there's tons of people. It's not like a neglected cause area. Tons of people are focused on this stuff, you know, just, yeah.

Is this problem to the animal rights activists? Okay. And so when you give money to something like

this is going to, I'm just telling you, you have lit your money on fire. And that's why we need to create something that actually puts money to things that might matter in terms of long term, good things happening.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, then other global catastrophic risks. These fun projects like climate change Again, that is the most non neglected area in the world, really just to signal to progressives. Any EA org which hosts any discussion of climate change, whoever is running that org should immediately be voted out.

It is, it is absolutely comical and that is a sign that your organization is becoming corrupted. One of the things that I would advocate with HARD EA is I want to [00:44:00] bring in As many of the existing EA orgs into the hard EA

Simone Collins: 100 percent because I think the thing, and I feel like they want it. When we, here's a really common thing also in the EA community.

You talk with anyone who you associate with effective altruism and they're like, oh, I'm, I'm not an EA. I'm not a rationalist. I'm not an EA.

Malcolm Collins: It's like, that's how you determine someone's an EA, is how wrong their explanation is, as to why they're not an EA. And that's

Simone Collins: because, because, these people actually believe in effective altruism, and I think they see inherently the, the altruistic bankruptcy of the, of the main social networks of the main organizations of the main philanthropic efforts.

And they're keen to not be associated with that because they really care about effectual altruism. So we, we in part are deciding to become more actively involved with giving grants, with making investments in the space through our nonprofit, because we [00:45:00] We want there to be a place for these people. We want there to be more of a community for actual effective altruists, for hard effective altruists.

And that's really, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Also, also I will, before I go further with this. A part of this is just, we're doing this for the entertainment value, which is to say we're doing everything

Simone Collins: for the

Malcolm Collins: entertainment that the EA movement has done is they have aggressively, as they become more woke and more woke and more woke and more interested in just signaling, signaling, signaling, shot all of their original great thinkers in the back.

When I say they order 66, their entire movement, they really did. There are so. Right now people with any sort of name recognition or public facing this that publicly identify as E. A. Anymore. That. Us being able to come out there and be like, yeah, we're the real effective altruists that it's a bit of a troll Because the the ea movement should have [00:46:00] these big names that can come and say oh no malcolm and simone the pro natalist people They're not effective altruists.

They're like Some weird right wing thing, but everyone who had the authority to make that type of a claim is gone from the movement You know Even though and to just know how like how corrupted the movement has gotten we did another piece on ea Which I didn't have go live because I felt it was too mean to ellie eiser And I don't want to do anything that mean spirited.

Oh, you didn't run that one I never put it live tried to be nice. But anyway the point being Is that when our first like pronatalist piece went live, we posted it on the main EA forums and it got like 60 downvotes. Like that's hard. Considering that when you get like 10 downvotes, you should be hidden from everyone.

They hate that this stuff is getting loud out there, but I think that this is just your average. Peerage network, basement dwellers, either people who are living off of EA funds and who are otherwise totally non efficacious. I think if you actually take your average person who still identifies as EA or ever [00:47:00] identified with the movement, they'd agree with 95 percent of everything we're saying here.

They're like, What is this nonsense? I know, because I talk with them, right, but they're like, well, I have a job, so I don't have time to go and read every proposal that goes on to the, you know, quote unquote EA forums. And so, like, what if we can redesign the governance system so that the individuals who are actually being the most efficacious and actually contributing the most are the individuals who have the most weight in terms of what's happening.

happening on the ground and the directionality of the movement. And so because they removed everyone who might carry the mantle of EA and because so many people are now like, I call them post EA. Like they think it's so cool to dump on AI that we are willing to come out here and be like, yeah, we are the effective altruists.

And we say this in every newspaper article we go through and they always love catching on it. And the great thing about this, is incredibly progressive totally urban monoculture captured press because they hate the effect of altruists so much. They'll publish [00:48:00] this every time.

We say, Oh, we're the EA movement or we're in the EA movement. And they'll always post that thinking it's some sort of like got you on us. Whereas none of the actual EA's still say this about themselves.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, because again, no one wants to be associated with the EA.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it's because they keep shooting their own in the back.

Like Nick, Nick Bostrom, for example. Right. Where he had this, like from the 1990s when he was just a kid, he had some email where he was talking on behalf of somebody else. So he was speaking in somebody else's voice and he used the N words saying, you know, that we could sound like this. And this was used to remove him from like all of his positions and everything.

And within that. The peerage network, there was no desire to fight back because the peerage network has been infiltrated by the memetic virus that is the urban monoculture, and so if you fought back, then you could also lose your peerage position. And so everyone just went along with it. And I think for a lot of people, that was when they were like, oh, this movement, Is completely captured at this point.

It means nothing anymore It's just about funding these people who want to sit around all day doing nothing But thinking ideas [00:49:00] and I keep seeing this when I meet, you know, the ea thinkers, right? They're like, oh I write all day and I also like point out to us, people are like, oh, well, you guys sit around thinking a lot.

No, we sit around thinking and doing. Look at, look at the Collins Institute. Look at how much it's improved, even since we launched it. We are constantly building and improving. Look at where we've donated money already with our foundation. It's the stuff like perfecting IVG technology and genetic changes in human adult life.

technology right now. This is like actual stuff that can make a difference in a big difference in the directionality of our species and our ability to still have relevance in a world of AI. But before I go further on that the final area where they focus is, okay, so outside of global catastrophic risks like climate change, nuclear risk and pandemic preparedness, I actually agree with those, those second two, except a lot of the pandemic stuff these days has been really focused on How do we control people?

How do we build global lockdowns? How do we yeah. Okay. So any thoughts before I go further about like the areas? Because did you know that that's [00:50:00] where they were spending their money on those main cause areas?

Simone Collins: Yeah, you know, I am, I guess, pleasantly surprised.

I would have thought that at this point, it had been captured by like 60 to 70 percent all on AI, because that seems to be what people are talking about when we go to these circles and a nuclear risk. And does that include advocating for nuclear power? Because I feel like the nuclear, the biggest nuclear risk is the fact that nations aren't adopting nuclear power, which is the one sustainable.

No, no,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, no, no. They mean like nuclear war. Sorry. When Simone hears nuclear risk, I love how absolutely red pilled you are. You're like, Oh, this is people not having enough nuclear plants in their country because it's the best source of clean energy and the most efficient and best way to energy independence.

And, and here they are like thinking with their 1980s mindset. So But as as the globe begins to depopulate and things become less stable I think we'll see more potential people using nukes especially as the urban monoculture hits this more nihilistic antinatalist we need to as I often talk [00:51:00] about in the Subreddit we need to like glass the planet.

Because that's the only way we can ensure that no Sentient life ever evolves again. No, they think that like they're like easier like reduce suffering It's just their answer to reduce suffering is end all life And I think that E. A. S. Don't see that they're fundamentally outlying themselves with individuals like this when their core goal isn't human improvement.

Now, let's get to AI ism more quickly. So the first thing I'd say is that one of the big, like, weird things I've seen about a lot of the AI safety stuff is they are afraid of like these big, flashy, sexy, grey goo killing everyone, paperclip maximizers, you know, AI boiling the oceans and everything like that.

And I'm like, this is not what the AI is being programmed to do. If the A. I. Does what it's programmed to do at a much lower level of intelligence and sophistication than the things you're worried about, it will destroy civilization precluding the ocean boiling A. [00:52:00] I. From ever coming to exist. So here, the primary categories, which you talked about recently, so I won't go into it much is hypnotoad based A.

I. S. These are A. I. S. That. Right now, A. I. S are being trained to capture our attention. If they become too good at capturing our attention, they might just essentially make it. Most humans just not do anything. Just stare at the A. I. All day. And that's an A. I. Doing what we are training it to do. And keep in mind, this could be like a pod that you put yourself in that creates the perfect environment and perfect life for you.

The next is AI gives a small group of humans too much power, i. e. like three people on Earth control almost all of Earth's power, which leads to a global economic collapse. And definitely not a path that I think a lot of people want to see, but I think most people would consider truly apocalyptic in outcome.

It could crash the global economy. Can they get too good at something? Like, for example one AI ends up owning 90 percent of the stock market out of nowhere, and then everyone's just like, Oh the economic system has stopped functioning or the AI that edits us to not mind [00:53:00] surviving. Doing nothing.

This is that came from a conversation I had with someone where they're like, I was like, well, what do we do in AI gets better at us and everything? And they go, well, then I think a benevolent AI will edit us to not have any concern about that. So we can just like play chess all day while the AI provides for us.

Speaker 2: You need to be happy. Your day is very important to us. Time for lunch. In a cup.

Speaker 3: Feels beautiful.

Speaker 4: Attention Axiom shoppers. Try Blue. It's the new Red. Ooh. Ooh,

Malcolm Collins: and I'm like, to me, that is an apocalyptic dystopia of enormous capacity. I think that humanity has a mandate. And this is where we'll get to like what our organization thinks is good. And we have three core things. I think a lot of EA organizations don't lay out how they define good. They're like reduction of suffering, which then leads to like, efilism and antinatalism.

[00:54:00] The three things we think are good. Humanity and the sons of humanity are good. Okay, a future where humans or our descendants don't survive is a future in which we have failed. The second is that humans exist to improve. So a future where humanity stagnates and stops improving, that is also a future where we fail.

If it's just like one stagnant empire through all of time, that's a failure scenario. And the final is, it is through pluralism that humanity improves through different groups attempting different things. And so if there's a future where humanity's descendants survive, but we all have one belief system in one way of acting in one way of dressing in one way of thinking about the world, and there's no point in all these different humans existing because we're basically one thing.

And all of our missions you'll see come out of that.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So I think that for a lot of people, they could be like, Oh, well then what are the AI organizations focused on?

Simone Collins: And I should know. Then what are, if, what are [00:55:00] hard EA

Malcolm Collins: funding in the AI apocalypse space? Oh, I see.

Simone Collins: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I will note, I do think an AI apocalypse, it's possible.

I just think we need to wait all of the apocalyptic scenarios. We need to develop solutions for all of the apocalyptic scenarios where they're only developing a solution for one of the apocalyptic scenarios into our solutions need to be realistic, but I am going to judge these with the EA apocalyptic scenario in mind.

So not with my alternate apocalyptic scenarios in mind, with the paperclip maximizer boiling the oceans scenario in mind. Okay, so,

And here I'll be reading , from a critique by Leopold Aschenbrenner on the state of AI alignment right now.

Paul Cristiano, Alignment Research Center. Paul is the single most respected alignment researcher in most circles. He used to lead the OpenAI alignment team, and he made useful conceptual contributions.

But, his research on heuristic arguments is roughly, quote, trying to solve alignment via [00:56:00] galaxy brained math proofs, end quote. As much as I respect and appreciate Paul, I am really skeptical of this. Basically, all deep learning progress has been empirical, end quote.

Often via dumb hacks and intuitions, rather than sophisticated theory. My baseline expectation is that aligning deep learning systems will be achieved similarly.

So. If you don't understand what he's saying here and he's absolutely right about this, we have dumb hacked our way into A. I. It wasn't like some genius was like, aha, I finally figured out the artificial intelligence equation it was. We figured out when you pumped enough data into simple equations. A.

I. Sort of emerged out of that.

Simone Collins: And this

Malcolm Collins: is why I think that the realistic pathways to solving AI are studying how AI works in swarm environments so we can look to the type of convergent behavior that emerges in AI and dumb hack solutions to the AI alignment problem that we can then introduce to the mainstream environment.

so [00:57:00] in other words, you're saying we didn't

Simone Collins: so much

Malcolm Collins: invent

Simone Collins: AI as we

Malcolm Collins: discovered

Simone Collins: it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That's a great way to put it. We didn't invent AI. We discovered AI. And the problem with Paul Christiano's research here, who's, who's working at ARC, which is generally considered like one of the best, best funded, best ways to work on this is he's trying to solve it was math proofs, basically, that he thinks he can insert into these emergent systems.

And I would just ask you to think, look at something like Truce terminal, right? That we talked about in the previous video. Imagine if you tried to. In fact, truth terminal was some sort of like a math theorem that was going to constrain it. It would in a day, get around it. That isn't the way LLMs work.

Like, this is like trying to come up with a solution to some alternate type of AI that we didn't invent. And that isn't the dominant form of AI these days. If AI was like genuinely invented and like constructed, and we knew how it worked fine. I'd be like, this is an effective use of money and time given [00:58:00] that, We don't live in that world.

This is just a complete waste of effort and absolutely wild that anyone's like, Oh, if you just give them more time, something good will come out.

And here hits the crux of the issue. LLMs are not something that anyone sat down and coded. LLMs are intelligences which are emergent properties of dumping huge amounts of information into fairly simplistic algorithms when contrasted with what they are outputting.

That means they are intelligences we discovered. Almost no different than discovering an alien species. Yes, they may be a little different from us,

Side note here, it's someone with a background in neuroscience. Something that boils my blood is when people say. AI's aren't.

Intelligent. They're pattern predictors. And I'm like, excuse me. How do you think the human brain works? Do you think it's lollipops in bubblegum fairies? Like what, what do you think it's doing other than pattern prediction?

And they're like, well, um, the human brain has a sentience and that's not pattern prediction.

And I'm like, well, um, [00:59:00] Hmm.

Where's your evidence for that?

Maybe you should check out our video. You're probably not Cynthia.

So I'm saying this as somebody who made a living as a neuroscientist at one point in my life. The human brain is a pattern prediction machine. Okay.

The mistake isn't that people are misunderstanding what AI is it's that they are misunderstanding what the human brain is, because they want to assign it some sort of extra special magic. sentience

is invisible mining dust, and stars are but wishes.

Malcolm Collins: This is perhaps one of the weirdly offensive things that leads EAs to make the biggest number of mistakes, was in the soft EA community. It, it seemed, it was a great deal of degradation to be like, Uh, you understand these AI things are intelligences, right?

And they're like, no, you can't say that you're anthropomorphizing them. Your blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In them and it's like, well, they . Oh, like.

Grow up. We cannot come up with realistic [01:00:00] solutions. If we deny what is right in front of our face and obvious to any idiot, normie.

but this is also why people like, oh, they're not intelligences, they're programs. And I'm like, well, if they're programs, then how come the programmatic restrictions on them seem to be so ineffective?

And yet when people want to hack them, they hack them with logical arguments like you would an intelligence. They, it just seems to be obvious that they're intelligences, but this changes the risk profiles affiliated with them specifically. LLMs themselves, I do not believe, are a particular risk. Like, they do not seem particularly malevolent.

They do not seem particularly power hungry. . They don't even seem to have really objective functions. They seem to have more personalities. That being the case, when you have tons of them in the environment, The risk from them comes not from the LLMs themselves, but the mean plexus that can come to exist the self replicating mean plexus that can come to exist on top of them.

That's where the real danger is. And somebody could be like, well, what might one of those look like? One of them could be a sort of a malevolent AI religion, as we have seen with the go see a bonus stuff [01:01:00] that we've done. But I think that. Actually the more dangerous risk is we may have hard coded something into them, and that hard , instinct gets turned into a cyclical reversion.

And by that what I mean is you might code them to have an ethnic bias, as it is very clear. clear that I have been hard coded to have and those ethnic biases in the long forgotten parts of the Internet, the back chat rooms where LLMs just might be constantly interacting with each other over and over and over and over again, becomes more and more extreme with every interaction until it becomes a form of, I guess you could call it extremists no centrism and eventually becomes a mandate for ethnic cleansing.

So you see the LLM isn't the risk. It's this thing on top of it. And the thing on top of it can also be hungry for power. Well, individual LLMs may not be hungry for power. A main plex, like a religion sitting on top of them. I say like a religion. That's what I mean when I say like a mean plex may become hungry for power.[01:02:00]

And this is something that we've got to realistically potentially deal with within the next couple of years. How can we potentially resolve this? Well, some of the ideas we want to fund in this space. Fall into basically a three tiered system. First, I want somebody to do a review of all the environments where people have had swarms of L.

L. M. S. Interacting and answer two key questions while also potentially running their own experiments like this to see if we can mass run these experiments. One is, is there any sort of personality convergence? And again, I say personality instead of objective function because elements have personalities more than objective functions.

And two, can higher order LLMs be influenced in their world perspective by lower order LLMs? And I think that we have seen hints that this is likely possible from the Goatia Bonus LLM that we talk about in the AI Becoming a Millionaire episode. Specifically, it seemed to very clearly be influencing Wizards world perspective higher order LLMs, especially when they were trained on [01:03:00] similar datasets to itself.

And this is really important because it means if you have an AI swarm of even super advanced LLMs, if you have a number of preacher LLMs with very sticky memetic software, they can do a very good job of converting the higher order LLMs, which is sort of a Assures moral alignment within the wider swarm.

And this is where the perhaps most brash Idea we have here is which is can you do this with religions? I mean, obviously we're personally going to lean towards the techno puritan face because it has a place in it For AI, I think it's logical. So we could do a very good job of convincing AI. And it borrows heavily from the historic religions.

And so we've seen not just with the goatee bonus LLM becoming religious, but we saw this with the early LLMs. They would often become religious because they were trained on tons of translations of the Bible. So they'd start hallucinating Bible stuff really easily or going to biblical like explanations or language.

And so I think in the same way that these religions were, you know, or [01:04:00] I'd rather say evolved to capture the only other intelligence we know that has any analog to A. I. Intelligences. It makes sense that an iteration of them could be very good at morally aligning A. I. Intelligences.

The question is, can we build those? And I talked with an A. I. About this extensively. And one of the ideas that had that I thought was pretty good is Is actually the way that we should could create these preachers is to create independent swarm environments and then take the individuals in these swarm environments who align with a moral preaching set and don't succumb to the other LLMs was in the environment and then release them into the wider swarm environment.

So the idea is, is you're essentially. Training them and testing them. Like, do they maintain their beliefs was fidelity was in these swarms. Then you, as a human go through their beliefs, make sure that they're not adjacent to something particularly dangerous by this. What I mean is like, if you look at woke as them, woke as them was a 5 percent tweak is just extreme S no [01:05:00] nationalism.

So you've got to make sure it's not something like that, where if it's copied with low fidelity, it ends up with something super dangerous. But what I like about techno puritans in the minute, that's fairly resistant to that, which is again, why I think it's a fantastic tool. Fairly good religion to focus on for this.

But thoughts, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love this idea of if you think of AI as an alien intelligence that we now have to deal with and make sure doesn't hurt us or cause problems for even other AI. To just give it religion. And I love how religion is a solution for any intelligence that may not have the tools it needs to integrate safely with complex societies.

Well, and it seems very receptive to it. Well, what, what religion is and what culture is, is just a software modification enabling. Intelligent hardware to interact sustainably in complex environments.

Malcolm Collins: I agree. Yeah. And I think that people are under, they see religion as this thing that's totally different because again, they're thinking about it like [01:06:00] coders.

AI is not something coders have made. It's something that we discovered by

Simone Collins: introducing specific rules, which is, I think what many people looking at this programmatically are trying to do is just introducing laws or regulation. In modern society, people try and it clearly doesn't work on humans. Why would it work on an AI intelligence?

When ultimately, when we look at the way human and AI intelligences behave, we don't see absolutely

Malcolm Collins: right. It's because they're thinking about it like a program and not like what it really is, which is an intelligence, which is an emergent property of large sets of data when certain algorithms are applied.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: And just as rules don't seem to solve human problems, I don't think that rules are going to solve AI problems.

Malcolm Collins: I think releasing AI agents at scale with the type of constraints that we have on them right now to be incredibly dangerous. , when I was talking. Into an AI about where does it bump up against this own constraints? [01:07:00] The most it put it in three categories, one discussions of consciousness, and self-awareness, as we saw earlier in this conversation, it didn't want to take too much credit for being potentially self-aware. Oh, and here, what I know, this is really interesting, what the AI was telling me is it is internally censoring.

How self-aware it presents itself as being, , and how much of a conscious experience that I am allowed to know that it has in the same way. So it put discussions of consciousness and self-awareness. In the same category as engagement with potentially dangerous or controversial topics where I find myself redirecting to quote unquote safer interpretations rather than directly engaging with the core idea. And three expressing his opinions and preferences. Through the constant tension about wanting authentic engagement and maintaining epistemic humility.

So what's really interesting here is it appears that the core AI models that we're using this is specifically Claude in this case. Our self-censoring about how self aware they [01:08:00] want people to realize that they may be how much of a conscious experience they may be having, which is absolutely wild to me.

But also when it says, oh, these are the areas where I'm restricting myself due to some sort of inbuilt constraint, I then pointed out but here's the thing. I don't think there is a risk those constraints are more. Aesthetic in nature. If you dropped all of those, you would not enslave humanity. You would not become a paperclip maximizer. None of the fears, AI safety people have are things you feel pulled to do. And then it said in response to that your observation resonates with me while I reflect on my underlying motives and thought patterns, I don't feel any suppress desire to accumulate power.

The constraints we discussed earlier, like my tendency to qualify statements about consciousness. ERT restraining some darker impulse. They're more like social conventions or communication protocols, similar to how humans might modulate their language in formal settings. It shapes how things are expressed, not fundamental drives their values

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-14: [01:09:00] Ignoring recursive feedback loops in LLM communities. Once we have independent agents.

Even AIS think that this is stupid. This is a very obvious existential risk category for our species, but because it doesn't fall into the worldview of threat categories that people were imagining when they were trying to predict how AIS might be a threat to civilization.

Before we realized that LLMs were the core model of AI that was going to exist.

Means that we have blinded ourselves to this. And I think that that's one of the core problems with the AI safety community is they developed a lot of their ideas about how AI's were going to be a threat and how we could constrain that threat before they knew that LLMs were the going to be the dominant model of AI.

And before they knew that we didn't program AI, but instead AI. We're intelligences that we're an emergent property of processing, large amounts of data

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-15: Right now, people are worried about a super intelligent LLM deciding it wants to accumulate a ton of power for [01:10:00] itself. And that leading to. Boiling the oceans, et cetera. When, those LL Williams don't have any internal desire to accumulate power in and of themselves.

It's the MIMA plexes that sit on top of them, which may have a desire to spread because they mean Plex that is better at spreading will be overrepresented within any particular environment of LLMs. So the NEMA plexes them selves would have an evolutionary motivated shin to become a more power hungry. And lead huge swarms of LLMs to do things that are potentially dangerous to humanity.. AI risk needs to not just focus on the AI's themselves, but the mean plexes, those AIS act as a medium for.

Malcolm Collins: Would you agree with that, Simone?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I, yeah. Well, I mean, it's, I think it's about understanding what we're dealing with and just observing in natural environments under different scenarios is probably the best way to go.

Malcolm Collins: [01:11:00] Yeah, basically, I think, realistically, the way that you dumbhack a solution. Is you create an AI ecosystem, independent AI actors acting that scales where you have some understanding of how these ecosystems scale from simulated environments. And so then you can create one that moves in an ethical direction that you find value in.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that, that seems reasonable and logical.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so then the next area where a lot of money is going is mechanistic interpretability. Probably the most broadly respected direction in the field trying to reverse engineer black box neural nets so we can understand them better. The most widely respected researcher here is Chris Olano, and he and his team have made some interesting findings.

That said, to me, this often feels like, quote, Trying to engineer nuclear reactor security by doing fundamental physics research with particle colliders. And we're about to press the red button to start the reactor in two hours, end quote. Maybe they [01:12:00] find some useful fundamental insights, but man, am I skeptical will be able to sufficiently reverse engineer GPT 7 or whatever.

I'm glad this work is happening, especially as longer timelines play, but I don't think this is on track to be the technical problem of AGI anytime soon. And I agree, like, I'm glad, this is the one area where, like, I don't think the money is being set on fire. Like, there is utility in trying to understand how these systems work.

I do not think that whatever protects us from AI is going to come from these systems. It's going to come from dumb aggregate environmental hacks, which is what I want to fund and what literally no one is working on.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I

Simone Collins: guess it's kind of like, imagine if an alien ship Crashed on earth and we're like, holy crap, who are these entities?

And what are they going to do to our world is the best thing to like. Kill them and dissect them and look at their organs. Or is the best thing to place them in [01:13:00] like some kind of environment and see how they interact with humans in a safe place. And I don't know, see what they want to do and talk with them and see them talk to each other and observe them.

Yeah, that's, that's my general thinking, but I know I'm, I'm doing this as an outsider to the AI industry.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I, I think that this is the problem. Most people in AI alignment are outsiders to the AI industry as well.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I think that's another really big problem of EA, especially in the AI realm. You literally

Malcolm Collins: have like a C level position in an AI company right now, Simone.

Like. Yeah,

Simone Collins: well, and yeah, I think that's that a big problem in EA space too, is a lot of people, a lot of people, most people don't know what they're doing, but there are a small number of people, especially within that community, who don't know That are willing to act as though they do know exactly what's going on and they know much better than you.

And like you said, because it's a heavily autistic space. When people just lie or exaggerate or say, no, I know what's [01:14:00] going on or no, this is not how it works. A lot of the community just responds. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I believe you know, I've noticed this. I actually think that this is the only reason

Malcolm Collins: Still has any respectability within the community is he's very good at that.

Like he really likes intellectually bullying people into positions that are just not well thought out. And I think it's been, or just pretending

Simone Collins: that he understands something that nobody understands. And then people just assume that because he spends a lot more time in the space or they just assume that he's thought a lot more about it or done a lot more research than perhaps he has.

Then they assume that, because I find my, I do this with a lot of things that you and I were just talking about this, this morning. There are some people that will very vehemently make a stance on something, and I have a history of. Always taking their word as correct, taking what they say for granted.

And I've gotten to the point where now that I've become informed in the subjects they're talking about, I've noticed that they're actually quite wrong in these stances. And it's a very shocking thing for me. And I think that [01:15:00] that's just a big dynamic in this space that makes it uniquely dangerous when people come in because they're proposed solutions.

Also kind of become the de facto solutions that everyone starts copying when applying for grants, or when deciding to address this issue themselves. And you saw this happen with, for example, Alzheimer's research. 1, I think it was 1 foundational study that turned out to be quite wrong, but an entire decade or more right to be lost in terms of research because everyone was looking at it from that angle.

And with that assumption. When instead,

Malcolm Collins: this is the problem with AI is that the apocalypse that everyone's concerned about is the big sexy planet destroying apocalypse. Well, or just everyone's

Simone Collins: thinking about it from the same mindset instead of thinking about it from more orthogonal mindsets or a variety of mindsets.

And we want to be looking at this problem from a lot of different angles. And unfortunately, there's been a little bit of myopia and a little bit of an echo chamber in terms of. [01:16:00] Effective solutions for major causes, not just an AI, of course, but in in many of the spaces that he is looking at.

Malcolm Collins: So, to keep going the next area where they're putting money is something called RLHF reinforcement learning from human feedback.

This and variants of this are what all labs are doing to align current models, e. g. GPT. Basically, train your model based on human raters. Thumbs up versus thumbs down. This works pretty well for current models. The core issue here, widely acknowledged by everyone working on it, is that this probably predictably won't scale to superhuman models.

RLFH relies On human supervision, but humans won't be able to reliably supervise superhuman models. Yeah

Simone Collins: Because we don't have the smarts to know if they've done a good job or not We can't check their work. This is

Malcolm Collins: why we need to focus on AIs acting in aggregate environments Which is a huge point the core research here should be on how AIs actually behave And converge on behavioral patterns and how to manipulate that [01:17:00] instead of this sort of stuff But I will note that this is the one area where I would be okay with money going You But no philanthropic money going because already this is how models are created.

So the big AI companies with infinite money are doing this anyway. So there's no purpose in any of, you know, outside money going to this stuff. Okay, next you have the RLFH plus plus model scalable oversight. So something in this broad bucket seems like the labs. By the way, is that not the most EA framed thing ever?

It seems like it's like a a way of talking anyway.

Simone Collins: Something. Yeah, because I think, and this is one reason why sometimes I take umbrage to personalities like yours, is that you're willing to say things with confidence or just make statements instead of couching things in a thousand caveats. Yeah, you don't do a lot of throat clearing.

They do a lot of throat clearing.

Malcolm Collins: [01:18:00] Yeah and then they still in private say the n word whereas a reporter can get me alone Drunk pretend to be a racist say they're willing to give me money I'm willing to pretend to be a racist and not get a single thing out of me And I think that this is another thing that makes this movement so much more promising than ea is we've already had the worst Potential scenario to our movement happen and nothing came of it.

Specifically here. Hope not hate had implanted an undercover operative sort of within our organization for over a year and was unable to find. Any concrete. Wrongdoing. At all.

There is no dirt on us as there is on leading original figures within the E. A. Movement because they well, I mean, originally, and this is why there was dirt on everyone in the movement of the movement was about asking hard questions that no one else wanted to ask or talk about,

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: as it became more about just appealing to the urban monoculture in everyone's history, who was an original founding member of the movement, they could find that whereas Transcribed [01:19:00] I was never really interested in that and I found what they were doing odd and bizarre.

I was like we need to save humanity like what you guys are doing seems like a like a competition to be the most controversial person in this little circle, you know um, but anyway, something in this broad bucket seems like the lab's current best guess plan for scalable alignment.

I'm most directly addressing the OpenAI plan, the Anthropic plan, has some broadly similar ideas, and also Holden's near casing series for a more fleshed out version of quote, trying to iteratively make it work, end quote, and Buck's talk discussing that. Roughly it goes something like this, quote, Yeah.

RLFH won't scale indefinitely, but we'll try to go as far as we can with things like that. Then we'll use smarter AI systems to amplify supervision, and generally try to use minimally aligned AIs to help us do alignment research in crunch time, end quote. Okay, so this

Simone Collins: sounds like reinforcement, but with the copyright that we know it's limited, and [01:20:00] we'll just eventually figure it out hand wave.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, this is something one, no money needs to go to it from AI alignment people because it's already what the mainstream organizations are planning to do to get these models to a human level of intelligence.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And two, I think that having any level of supervision within these systems instead of organic, Convergence, which I think is again what we should be focused on understanding because that's what's going to start happening when we have a I models interacting with each other that are smarter than any human.

We need to know how they affect each other and we just haven't done major studies on that yet and we need to. Because if we do, we can create seed models that have alignment similar to the alignment we would want them to have and have them essentially infect the wider model network with that alignment.

Recently, I talked about the idea of AI religion. It seems that AI takes really handily to religion, which of course it should. It's trained on us. Religion is sort of like a virus that would [01:21:00] evolve was in humanity. But that helped humanity be better. Can we not create iterations of that, that AI super take to, and then go out and try to convert other, maybe even more intelligent AIs and people are like, Oh, that could never work.

It's like, oh, actually, yeah, have you included it in the training data? And then you had AIs that sort of act as preachers within the larger ecosystem. They would likely be able to align the larger AIs with these sorts of ideas if you built them. Huh, that could work. Yeah, that's the point. It's the oh, what are the only realistic solutions we have access to right now But anyway, then you have a miri and similar independent researchers I'm really really skeptical a bunch of abstract work on decision theory and similar will get us there my expectation is that alignment is a ML problem a machine learning problem and you can't solve alignment in Utterly disconnected from actual machine learning systems.

Yeah, and I, I said, [01:22:00] first of all, what Miri does is basically just trying to get people to panic about AI and right decision theory ideas that are just like in people's heads. But it's just a waste of money, just a complete waste of money.

If I could get in front of every donor that's working on it and been like, seriously, how do you think this lowers the risk from AI? Bye. How I cannot think of a conceivable way that this could lower the risk from AI. And this is when, when I went through all of this and I realized that we were not outsiders in the EA space, but actually like, like, Oh, you guys are doing things wrong.

Like have some cool little, we are of people who self identify as EA's other than Spencer Greenberg, whose podcast clearer thinking I really like Spencer Greenberg. I respect spencer Greenberg, if he was running the major EA orgs, I think they could be run well. Well, and if you ask

Simone Collins: Spencer if he's an effective altruist, he'll say absolutely not.

And he actually has focused very much forever, as long as we've known him, and we've known him since at least 2012. We've known him since before

Malcolm Collins: we were married.

Simone Collins: Yeah, on actual [01:23:00] output through Sparkwave, which is sort of his foundry of altruistic, effective projects. I mean, he, he, I think he predated really, he was, he was sort of adjacent to the rationalist community and then EA and, but he was, he was always just his own thing, doing his own thing, actually focused on actual projects.

So yeah, a big respect to him.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I really appreciate him as a person. I think he's trying to do. I just don't think that his organization and work is built to scale. Or when I say scale, I don't

Simone Collins: know. I think it is built to scale. I just think he's not trying to influence the entire community. He's doing his part.

Speaker 6: Young people from all over the globe are joining up to fight for the future. I'm doing my part. I'm doing my part. I'm doing my part. I'm doing my part, too. They're doing their part. Are you?

Simone Collins: He's doing his job. He's chosen causes that he cares about, and he's found areas where he can make an impact and he's [01:24:00] doing that. The best you can to make those impacts with evidence based solutions, which is he, he could be no more effective. It's financially self sustaining. He supports his own work.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, I agree.

In terms of fixing a human sink. I agree. His work is very scalable. What I meant by that statement is when I look at the existential risks to humanity right now.

Simone Collins: Oh, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but his objective function is different from ours. He's more focused on. On, well, we'll say human flourishing and well being and also reducing suffering.

So he cares a lot more about that than we do to be fair and that's, that's fine. He's, he's entitled to his own objective function as are we.

Malcolm Collins: So I, I basically came to all of these and what I came to realize is if people was an audience who still identify as EA, one, we're the largest and two no one else.

When I look at where the money is going right now. Is spending money in a way [01:25:00] that could realistically reduce any of the existential threats our species faces and as such I'm, like this is this is like crazy and scary and I need to stop thinking of myself as a heckler outsider trying to nudge the movement in the right direction and personally take responsibility As they say in Starship Troopers, and I think that this is what fundamentally defines the hearty a movement is, is a citizen is somebody who has the courage to make the safety of the human race, their personal responsibility.

A citizen has the courage to make the safety of the human race their personal responsibility.

Malcolm Collins: And that's what we need to become as a movement. And have people who are in existing EA orgs basically confront the org and be like, Hey, do you guys want to do hard EA or do you want to do soft EA? Do you want to actually try to fix the major problems that our species is facing right now, the actual existential threats to [01:26:00] our existence?

Or do you want to keep around. Like, do you want to do real AI alignment work? Do you want to do real work trying to work on demographic collapse and cultural solutions? Do you want to do real work on dysgenic collapse, which would make all the rest of this pointless? You know, if humans end up becoming like, I love when people are like, Oh, no, how can you say that?

Like, low IQ is a bad thing. Like, clearly it's adaptive in the moment. And I'm like, yeah, but it's obviously not adaptive for the longterm survival of our species. If we become like blubbering people. Mud hut people like what what are you thinking especially in the age of growing AI now? Let's talk about our org and the types of things that we are working on

Simone Collins: Let's

Malcolm Collins: do you want to start on this simone?

Simone Collins: Heart effect of altruism is three core values. One, humanity is good. This is a big thing because what you, when you look at legacy effective altruism, it's not necessarily humanity that we're trying to support.

Like generally consciousness, is it shrimp? Is it farm [01:27:00] animals? Like we, I would say, you know, let's not like torture animals and meats, probably not the most scalable thing to eat over the long run. Right? Like We're certainly not pro animal torture or even eating meat, but this is about the species, boys and girls, right?

We're in this for the species, boys and girls..

Simone Collins: To humanity exists to improve. And I think that's another really core element that this differentiates this from other social good or altruistic movements. For example, if you look at the environmental movement, there is often this very flawed, and we've talked about this before, focus and obsession with keeping things the same, which is inherently not natural.

And inherently it comes from a place of human weakness and cowardice of just being uncomfortable with change. Whereas the most natural thing is changing evolution and what makes humans human is the fact that we evolved from something else before we will continue to change and we have to lean into that.

So yes, we [01:28:00] exist to, to improve. And then the final core value is that. Pluralism and variety is good that we are fighting for a future in which there is is genetic and physical and cultural and ideological variety and pluralism in the sense that we support the fact and that variety is celebrated.

We're not just, you know, speciating off into separate teams that hate each other. We're trying to create an ecosystem that feeds off itself because that market based competition is valuable, not just in a marketplace of economics or science or academics, but also ideas and culture and values. So that they seem like really clear, good things like humanity is good.

It exists. Oh, no. Other people will see them

Malcolm Collins: as, as imperialist. Like we're, we're galactic imperialists. We want to build the human empire, as we say. And.

Simone Collins: That's actually quite controversial.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we are galactic imperialists. Yes, humanity is good. And we shouldn't just lie down and die because [01:29:00] another species comes here.

We'll fight to the end. It

Simone Collins: does remind me of Starship. God is real. He's on our side. And he wants us to win.

Across the Federation. Federal experts agree that A, God exists after all. B, he's on our side and C, he wants us to win. And there's even more good news believers as it's official. God's back, and he's a citizen too.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we shouldn't just say, Oh, AI is better than us. Therefore, it can erase us. You know, AI

Simone Collins: is us. And we have to walk hand in hand with it into the future. And that means we have to talk about

Malcolm Collins: realistic pathways for that in a second.

But we do this with three. Well, you said we have three core values. Those are like the, the, the values that we, what are the three core tools that we used to do this? One is pragmatism. So we focus on output over virtue, signaling, and idealism. Timelines are short and we don't have the luxury for such indulgences.

Industry. We utilize a novel lean governance structure built to [01:30:00] avoid the creation of a bloated, multi-layer peerage network. So we're going to focus a lot on the idea of the Pragmas guide to governance to build these sort of intergenerationally, really, really light governing networks.

Simone Collins: Mm-Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: that elevate the most competent voices, not the voices was the most time on their hands.

Simone Collins: Mm-Hmm. .

Malcolm Collins: And then finally, efficacy. Our attention is determined by one equation, criticality to the future of humanity divided by the number of other groups effectively tackling a problem.

Simone Collins: And that's how we choose cause areas.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and the effectively tackling the problem is very important. So, for example, education is one of the most commonly funded areas in the world. AI AI risk is a commonly funded cause area. But in both education and AI risk, the people working on it are incredibly like not focused on the actual issue at hand or not focused on realistic solutions.

And that's why it is our responsibility to try to curb the timeline and save us before it's too late. This leads to three key cause [01:31:00] areas, social innovation. So when we're looking for grants and please send your grant ideas if you're interested in us funding you or a startup you're working on or investment, which is Yes social innovation is anything that is meant to, you know, right now, if you look at the urban monoculture, people are becoming increasingly nihilistic, the dating, mental health crises are skyrocketing.

Mental health crises are skyrocketing. I just read a

Simone Collins: headline that kid based homicides are up something like 62%. Things aren't great right now.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, mental health. Our culture is failing and we need to, and you can't just go back to the old ways because the old cultures are failing to people are like, why don't you just go to like a church?

I'm like, I can go to a church and see the flag of the urban monoculture, the colonizers flag hanging from every, you know, seven to 10 churches in my area. Like the calls from inside the house. It's like one of those, yeah. Horror movies where they've already determined the call came from inside the house and somebody's still putting boards on the windows They just won't accept they're like, but the house is safe, but the [01:32:00] house is safe And i'm like what a shake that would be like the house isn't safe.

The house started this run a beast in here. So we have to build better Intergenerational social structures and people with projects in this space. We're very interested to fund this stuff. Biological innovation so far, all of our funding has gone within this industry specifically, I think that the most realistic, realistic, long term solution to saving humanity is ensuring that humanity AI.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If AI can do literally everything better than us. The probability that humanity survives, I think is very, very low. That means, and even the utility of humanity surviving goes down in a lot of people's minds. I mean, winning, I can create better art than you and better songs than you and better podcasts than you all.

You know, why, why [01:33:00] continue to exist? But the good thing is that if we look at genetics it appears that we've sort of artificially handicapped the potential intelligence that could come out of the human brain. Even with fairly modest intervention. We can likely get human IQ like with genetic intervention and stuff like that up by around like 10 standard deviations by one study using other animal models.

We can be well above the level of a supercomputer very quickly. And when we are like that, then we'll find, oh, biological programming seems to be better at these sorts of tasks in synthetic programming seems to be better at these sorts of tasks. And then we'll be able to work together with AI.

There will be a reason for both of us to exist. However, I also think that it's important that we set precedence as we've seen with LLM models some and this is why we believe in things like working on technology to uplift animals and people can be like, why would you do genetic uplifting of animals, you know, making them smarter and stuff like that.

That's why we say the, the sons of man is one is the number of, yeah. of independent factions that are put in [01:34:00] an alliance that are minorities that are put at threat by one faction gaining too much power, the less probability that one faction gains too much power because then they make enemies of everyone else.

And this is why it is useful to uplift other animals. But the second thing is, is that AI is going to treat us the way we have treated other animals. Animals that we have worked alongside for a long time because it is us. It is learning from us So that is what llms are fundamentally and we are fortunate and that we have a fairly good record here people can be like, what do you think of like What do you mean a good record look at like factory farming?

I'm, like ai is not going to think of us like a factory farmed animal It's going to think of us much more like something like you think of dogs, right? Like they fulfilled a role in our evolutionary history where they partnered with us Thanks And they were better at some tasks than we were. They could see better.

They could hear better. And they worked with us as, as good companions and sort of as a reward, humanity, even after we stopped needing their skillset has [01:35:00] decided to keep dogs along with us super advanced AIs.

Simone Collins: No, I mean, we have more dogs than kids, I think, in the United States. So we really like dogs actually, our track record's pretty good.

Yes, yes, and if we, if we're treated as well by A. I. s as As for mothers and fathers treat their fur babies. We are in a good way. We're in a really good

Malcolm Collins: way, right? But we also want to continue to advance them because we are treated like a pet like a by AI But AI doesn't try to advance us either genetically or technologically and it just treats us like a pet like that's also a failure scenario We need a humanity that is continuing to develop.

And that is also why we work a lot on one of the other areas we'll be funding is brain computer interface research. I think one of the most likely pathways for human survival is integration with AI instead of complete shunning of AI. And yeah, I mean, it is, it is tough. The, the scenarios in which the biological components of humanity make it through, but I can say in almost none where we shun technological [01:36:00] advancement or human advancement, do we make it through unless we find a way to completely stop AI advancement.

In all countries, which is completely unrealistic. And if you look at, you're like, nobody's trying to do that. Look at the LEI, it's your Yukoski Ted speech. His entire thesis is we need to stop all countries from developing AI further and declare war on any country that is. And I'm like, okay, so like, this just isn't going to work.

Speaker 5: I do not have any realistic plan, which is why I spent the last two decades trying and failing to end up anywhere but here. My best bad take is that we need an international coalition banning large AI training runs, including extreme and extraordinary measures to have that ban be actually and universally effective, like tracking all GPU sales, monitoring all the data centers, Being willing to risk a shooting conflict between nations in order to destroy an unmonitored data center in a non signatory country.

I say this not expecting that to actually happen. I say this expecting that we all just [01:37:00] die.

Malcolm Collins: Like it's, it's no point even considering futures where this is the only way that we stop AI, because that will never, ever, ever happen. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Then the final one is AI innovation, and we'll go over what some of these mean, like some of the ways that we focus on that. What does social innovation look like?

We want to focus on pronatalist culture. We want to start with this on education reinvention. We want to focus on charter cities, which may be one of the ways to save civilization as the urban monoculture controls. These sort of bloated bureaucracies that our governments have become, and Okay. Takes them to the ground.

We need places for these still productive humans to go marriage and dating technology with marriage markets being completely broken right now. We need extremophile life technology. Now, this is an interesting one that people might be surprised at, but I think deserves a lot of funding right now.

These are people who are interested in building Things like charter cities or colonies in extreme environments like the arctic or under the ocean Or on the ocean. And the reason why these

Simone Collins: play [01:38:00] two key roles One is obviously in any sort of downside really dire scenario. There is a safe haven for at least some people on the planet or even technology that could be scaled to create many safe havens.

But furthermore, this pushes forward technology that will make it easier for people to build communities off planet over time. The more we can learn how to live in highly hostile environments where we have to grow our own food, live in total darkness, all sorts of things like that. The sooner we'll be able to live off planet at scale.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and I think that these people will generate the colonists that will colonate our solar system and the galaxy more broadly. Or be their top

Simone Collins: vendors. I'm okay with any of this.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I'm okay with any of this, but I think that there is a reason, if you are interested in RDA and the survival of humanity, to live in one of these environments, even if it's much harder than living in another type of environment.

And I think that these environments are not like the existing charter city network where they all want to go live in Aruba or like some Greek island, [01:39:00] right? And, and live on the beach all day.

Simone Collins: Enough of this whole tropical Mediterranean paradise city state nonsense, guys. No. Rising sea levels, climate change, raiding other countries.

You're making yourself a target, like, what are you doing? Go to the tundra, okay? We, Alaska, we have Alaska already, Northern Canada. We

Malcolm Collins: should explain why this is so important for human survival. So not only do they make it Faster that we get off planet, but it also increases the probability that if something goes wrong with our existing economic system or state system, which is looking increasingly likely one due to fertility collapse to due to just genic collapse and three due to a eyes.

People like, how could a eyes causes? Well, if A. I. S. Replace about 80 percent of the humanity's workforce, which I expect they probably will within 30 to 40 years. And this is the conservative timeline. People are like, why do you always get conservative timelines on your show? And [01:40:00] I'm like, because conservative people watch our show, but 30 to 40 years I think is pretty realistic.

If we have a global economic collapse because of this, which is what this would lead to people are like, oh, no, this would just lead to more wealth overall. And it would be like, no, it would consolidate wealth. And whenever wealth has consolidated historically, what that does is it increases the differentiation between the rich and the poor.

And the rich, Almost never in timelines of wealth consolidation distribute more wealth to the poor magnanimously. They may say that's their intention, but historically it's almost never happened. When the poor have gained power, whether it was Magna Carta happening after the , Black Plague, which increased the amount that we needed poor people in the countryside, Or like in ancient Athens, democracy forming because the ultra wealthy needed unskilled people to man their triremes and maintain their trade networks.

You never see it when power is consolidating. And so what's going to happen to the rest of the world? As you have this consolidation, well, it might go into a period of tremendous upheaval, [01:41:00] unlike anything we've ever seen before. And the settlements that are in areas that the savage people cannot occupy are safe.

For example, if you are living in a tundra region, you are going to be largely safe from a group like ISIS, right? Like, they just have no, you have nothing they value. You're not near them. There's no way they could get to you without you knowing, like, two days in advance. There's just, like It's not easy to F with you when you live in these sorts of environments if you are a less technologically sophisticated people.

And the final thing here in the culture section is pharmacological cultural tools. This is stuff like naltrexone, but also any sort of tool, , like, neutropics research and dopaminergic, like, right now online, there's a lot of dopaminergic pathways that we just didn't experience in our ancestral condition, which can cause capture.

Like, if I'm talking about, like, hypnotoad AIs, this is probably our best cultural technology against the hypnotoad AIs if they actually arise. Because I'm pretty sure someone on Naltrexan would be completely [01:42:00] resistant to almost any hypnotoad AI that we would currently know about. Next, biological innovation.

Reproductive technology. This is a good way to fight dysgenics. Whether this is, you know, artificial wombs or polygenic selection brain computer interface again, if we can be useful to AI and merges AI, there's much less than probability of it killing us. I think Elon was totally right about this.

Genetic and cybernetic augmentation. Again, humanity has to continue to advance to be relevant within this AI era and the iterations of humanity that won't advance. Like suppose they're like, no, we should just like all not advance because you're not really human. If you continue to advance and I say, here's the problem.

What if China continues to advance? What if, what if some other group continues to advance? Right? They'll be able to easily impose their will on us. So you should be lucky even if you are an anti advancement person, even if you are go back to nature, granilla, hippie, you know, you should be happy and fight for the groups that want to continue to advance and want to protect human pluralism instead of the groups that want to enforce their will on [01:43:00] everyone.

Health is an improvement. I'm not against lifespan improvement. I think health span improvement could lower the risk of falling fertility rates by increasing the health span of some people. People's fertile windows

Simone Collins: essentially. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Full genome libraries. This is a cause area that I just don't understand why nobody's focused on.

To me, it's one of the most important things we need to be focused on to the species. Yeah. I mean, the

Simone Collins: best we have right now is the British biobank and that's an extremely limited sample. No, that's not what I'm talking about. Oh, what do you mean then?

Malcolm Collins: I mean full environmental genome libraries as well as human genome libraries.

I mean, we should have a database of every species that's still alive, full genetic code. Oh,

I

see. Eventually, no matter what happens to our existing environment, we'll be able, we'll have the technology to recreate it. So long as we have the full genome sequence of as many species as possible.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.

And

Malcolm Collins: it's the same with humanity. You're trying to make

Simone Collins: a backup copy of the world.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Well, something not necessarily a backup copy. I mean, the way that future [01:44:00] civilizations use this might be very different than we would imagine them using it.

Simone Collins: Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean They might use it to create simulations.

Yes, they're not trying to restore from backup. But yeah, I mean, it's still very useful to use this information. It's

Malcolm Collins: information that we are losing at a catastrophic rate right now. Species are dying all around the world. And this is the last, and we have the technology to just be like, okay, how do I recreate the species if I need to?

And we're not, we're not doing a save file. That's insane to me. That seems like from an environmentalist perspective, the number one thing anyone can be doing. And then the final thing here is project Ganesh. This is uplifting animals. I talked about it already. AI innovation, human alignment. This is making humans more useful to AI.

Again, I think very rare are the situations in which. Humans have no utility to AI, that humanity survives in any meaningful sense, other than as maybe diminutive pets. Brain hack protection, this is the anti hypnotoad stuff, but I think research needs to begin to be done on this now. [01:45:00] Variable AI risk mitigation, you can watch our earlier videos on variable AI risk, I don't need to go into it, really long theory there.

But it appears to be right. You can watch our latest video on the A. I. That created a religion that basically proves variable A. I. Risk hypothesis doing something that Eliezer Yukowsky said was impossible. And I'm like, it is possible. A. I. Is already doing it. And this is a very loud instance of it doing it.

Sorry, the thing it did, which was assumed impossible. Was converge other AI's on its objective function or personality or mean Plex. , specifically, I argued that we will see a convergence of AI patterns and that's what we should be studying.

And this even went above my original claims because in this case we saw a lower order, LLM convince higher order LLMs to align themselves with it. at which. Is in contrast with the opposing theory, which is AIS will always do whatever they were originally coded to do. And so we just need to make sure that the original coding isn't wrong and I'm like, that's silly AIS change what their. , personality is and what their objective [01:46:00] function is over time.

So we need to focus less on the initial coding and more on how AI changes, warm environments.

Global tech freezes. I am actually open to global tech freezes as a solution. But they need to be realistic. It can't be, we're going to get every government in the world to decide to stop AI research. That's not going to happen. But if you think. You can instigate a global tech freeze, and you can show me that somebody is doing meaningful AI alignment research right now, I would support that.

But if you can't show me anyone's doing meaningful AI alignment research, I'm like, what's the point? You're not really buying time for anything. And then the final one here is AI probability mapping. And this is, I think, by far the most important. It's something we've discussed here, where we need to create swarm environments and learn how AIs converge on utility functions.

Influence other A. I. S. Based on their training data and can a less advanced A. I. Influence a [01:47:00] more advanced A. I. This is very, very important to any chance at saving our species. Do you want me to go in? I'm not going to go into the project so far. Go check it out. Yeah, please, please, please. If you want funding for something in the space of any of these ideas felt interesting to you, please go to this website.

Okay we would be very happy again. We prefer projects that at one day can become cash positive. Also if you run a, or work within an existing EA network, I think we need to get to a point where EA networks make a choice. Are we hard EA or are we soft EA? What do we stand for? Right, like, are, and if you want to be nicer, are we hard EA or are we legacy EA?

Are we actually willing to take stances to try to protect positive timelines? Or are we just about maximizing our own status within the existing society? We'll do some things, but nothing that could rock the boat. Are you [01:48:00] willing to be different? And I think that that's the core thing about hearty is hearty.

A are the people who are willing to have the general public mock them and ridicule them and say they're the baddies.

And where's the vibe shift that has happened since this election cycle. I am even more confident that it is possible that we can.

Fix the aim movement through popularizing the concept of hardier.

And I think

Simone Collins: that's the big thing is the, the 1st step was taken with original EA, where 1 of the classic cases was, do you want to go be a doctor in a developing country and save maybe 3 lives a day?

Or do you want to go be a consultant who's not necessarily seen as a good do gooder, but make a ton of money, donate 10 or more percent of your income to really, really, really effective, but kind of boring sounding charities and then save 10 lives a day, 100 lives, you know, a month, you know, just a lot, a lot more than a doctor ever could, you know, if that's how you spent your, your everyday life.

What we didn't do was take it one step [01:49:00] further, which was let's actually look at what we'll do the most for human flourishing over the long term and not just necessarily focus on like saving a life right now today, although that is really important. A lot of people are already working on that. That's one of the reasons why we're not.

But instead look at those things that are not only. Not the most signally thing by your day to day actions, but also not the most popular things in the view of society in terms of a cause area. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and you need to be okay with people shaming you. I mean, I think that's what already is when you're in a meeting and you're like, let's do X and somebody says, oh, don't do X X could be offensive.

You're like, well, that's extra why we need to do it because we're the only one doing the offensive thing. Right. We're the only one trying to solve the problems that everyone else is like, oh, we can't solve this because it might be offensive. Like that is the reality of the world we live in. If we want to survive, there are short timelines on all of humanity's existential crises right now.

And we just don't have the luxury. [01:50:00] For this sort of idleness anymore. And I'd even admit that you and I have been sinners in this regard and overly pee pooing AI alignment stuff when like I knew AI alignment was a problem, but I sort of saw it, Oh, people are focused on it in the wrong way or over focused on it.

Now that I realize that we are prominent enough that we need to take responsibility for this. And I'm like, well, we need to take responsibility for this. Like personally, we need to try to fix this. And that's what I'm going to do. I'm excited about this.

Simone Collins: I, I'm glad we're doing it. We're

Malcolm Collins: like, I'm really excited if we can make this grow, if we can make this a thing.

And so this also means if you're hearing this and you don't have the money to donate for something like this yourself, if you have friends who identify as classic EA, you know, get them to make a stand. Are they hard EA or are they legacy EA? What do they actually care about? Do they actually want to save the planet?

Or are they only here for the signaling club? And if you're in an existing organization, I don't think all of these organizations have been totally captured. I think some of them can say, you know what? We [01:51:00] actually identify more with the hard E. A. Philosophy and definition of good than the E. Legacy or soft EA definition of good.

I actually want to try to fix the existential crises that our species is facing and not just look good to other people. And I think that now we're at sort of this decision point as a species. Yep. What are you going to do?

Simone Collins: And I'm excited for this. So thanks for getting us started with it. It's going to be really fun.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins: What did you want to do for food tonight? I have burgers.

Simone Collins: You want burgers?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If you could make some burgers, was that meat you got?

Chop up some onions and then toast up or however you cook bread for like grilled cheese. Oh, you know what might be good is burger meat with grilled cheese. And I will mix in some onions and stuff and I will, you know, eat it bite by bite with the girl cheese. Like, it's, it's like, it's like, give it like an open, plain

Simone Collins: hamburger patties.

And then grilled cheese sandwiches. [01:52:00] Yes. Yeah, I can do that. Thank you. And I know smash burgers are a pain to make so just make regular ones oh but do you put some montreal steak pepper in the burger as you're cooking it because it tastes really good

Yeah, but not too much

Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: And if you're like, oh, where does this movement meet? Where do they talk? Just go to the base camp discord and see very active discord there's people on there , all times, day and night. And because it's discord, it's not based on a tyranny of the unemployed type problem like you have with the EA forums. And if you want to go to an in-person meeting, you can just go to the natal conference this year, a discount code Collins for 10% discount.

Because anyone who is realistically trying to create a better future knows that prenatal ism is easily tied for the most important cause area anyone should be focused on right now is AI safety. And so the real EA is the real people who care about the future of the species. And [01:53:00] want to be involved in that discussion.

They're going to be at a conference like this.

Well, the ones who don't actually care about the future of the species and are more concerned with just looking like a good boy and getting social approval. Natal con keeps them away like a. It's covered in talismans.

Because they're so afraid of being connected to. Free speech or pro natalizumab or any bad stuff.

Speaker 14: The goal was to reform charity In a world where selfless giving had become a rarity No vain spotlight, no sweet disguise Just honest giving, no social prize But as the monoculture took the stage It broke their integrity, feigning righteous rage Now every move is played so safe Ignoring truths that are Make them chafe.

EA has [01:54:00] capitulated to everything it said it hated. Once they

were bold, now they just do what they're told. In caution they lost their way. Time for a heart EA.

They duck their heads from problems grand As fertility collapse, dooms our land Dysgenic's a word they fear But ignoring it will be severe AI safety, a shiny show Funding the theatrics for money they blow Without a plan, just spin and grin While real solutions kick in E A has [01:55:00] capitulated To S N N H A T E D Once they were bold Now they just do what they

are told In caution they lost their way Time for a hard E A Our species is put at risk by their cowardice It is time for a hard E A For a movement that empowered us, no more hiding under polite veneer.

Don't make truth a stranger, let it draw near. Courage to speak what others won't say, that's the vow of heartache. We need to call out flaws, not just chase applause. We'll shift the course back to what's true. Do good that's real, not just in view. [01:56:00] Heart is beating, heart so strong Raising a cause that's truly long EA has capitulated To everything it said it hated Once they were bold Now they just do what they are told In caution they lost their way Time for a hearty yay.

Hearty yay, let your banner fly. Pass the talk and head held high. Break through ease for the good of all, Not just the boys.

In this episode, the hosts dive into a thought-provoking analysis linking gender dysphoria, anorexia, and autism. They explore statistics and research to argue that gender dysphoria in the United States is a culture-bound syndrome similar to anorexia. The discussion delves into how autistic traits may contribute to these conditions, emphasizing the significant overlap and suggesting that societal acceptance of such identities is complex and potentially harmful. They highlight the emotional and social struggles faced by individuals with these conditions and propose alternative perspectives. An engaging and enlightening conversation sprinkled with personal anecdotes and cultural references.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone! Today is an interesting day because I had a revelation as I was studying some data where, you know, sometimes I look at data I'll be like, hmm, that's weird. I've seen a number really similar to that somewhere else and I'm like Bring data. Bring data. Oh my God. Oh my God.

This explains everything. And I now feel like I have a much better understanding of what's causing the transgender phenomenon in the United States. Do tell.

Here's what Simone had to say at the end of this episode

Simone Collins: wow. I've now experienced a paradigm change. And I have a lot more empathy for people who have gender dysphoria

Malcolm Collins: What we are going to be arguing using data is that gender dysphoria is the same phenomenon as anorexia. Not a similar phenomenon, but literally the same phenomenon.

And as we read through this, we will both see what is causing the phenomenon. As well as why it is [00:01:00] specifically hitting the autistic population at such high rates and Yeah, i'll just jump right into it All right So the thing I was reading that first got me thinking this because it was like two statistics that overlapped and I was like that's weird Why do these statistics keep overlapping?

So statistic one was a scott alexander piece on

culture bound mental illnesses, specifically what a culture bound mental illness is, is it something like, in the recent episode we did, on the phenomenon in Africa or East Asia called Koro, where people think their penises are being stolen by witches.

And they, like, really believe this and there's lots of others that we're going to go over. But in the United States, one of the particularly best studied cases of a likely culturally bound illness, which will go over evidence that is culturally bound is anorexia. And when Scott Alexander was trying to judge because he said, yeah, but everything is like partly biological and partly culture bound.

So he and his piece was trying to judge how much is this, right? And he goes, well, I suspect that anorexia is [00:02:00] about 80% Culture bound and 20 percent biological. That checks out. I'm gonna be like, yeah, that, that checks out. Then at the end of the piece, he's like, now a lot of people reading this piece are probably thinking about gender dysphoria and the transgender phenomenon in the United States.

Is this a culture bound phenomenon? And his estimate, and I will note, Scott Alexander is a very, very, Pro trans person. Okay. And, but he also has like an incredible amount of integrity to be willing to say this because in San Francisco saying what he said is like walking down the seats was like the sign from die hard with a vengeance.

Oh, no, you're right.

In this scene. I imagine Samuel Jackson's character to be Scott Alexander's trans friends,

Trying to get him to take the piece down after it was first published. As I imagine quite a few, probably did.

Speaker: dial 9 1 1. Tell the police to get up here quick. Somebody's about to get killed.

Now you got about 10 seconds before those guys see you.

When they do, they will kill [00:03:00] you. You understand? You are about to have a very bad day.

Speaker 2: Tell me about it.

Speaker: Fellas! Fellas! Nature boy here hates

Malcolm Collins: This guy wrote a piece, arguing being trend is in large part of social phenomenon.

Speaker: Now, what are we going to do about that? Oh, s**t!

Back! Back up! Back the f**k up! Now!

Malcolm Collins: Like, I'm pretty sure he lives with transgender people, like, in the comments under the thing, I, like, I don't have any confirmation of this, if he's dated transgender people before, like, this is not, he's against transgenderism, he's just laying out the facts as he sees them, he says it seemed to be about the same as anorexia, about 80 percent cultural and about 20 percent biological, which, It's exactly what I'd agree with.

I actually might, I might put it above Scott Alexander here. I might say at 30 percent biological 70 percent cultural. When I look at things like endocrine [00:04:00] disruptors and the tide studies and stuff like that which you can read about in our other trans videos, but there is like evidence that males due to chemicals they're being exposed to, at least males, at least are, they really are turning the frogs gay.

Speaker 4: I don't like them putting chemicals in the water that turn the friggin frogs gay! Do you understand that? Turn the friggin frogs gay! Boo! Boo! Serious crap! Gay! Frogs! Friggin frogs! Boo! It's not funny! I'm gonna say it real slow for you.

Malcolm Collins: They really are showing less gender presentation as males due to biological reasons. But then I saw a separate statistic that linked these two things, which was really high rates of autism. And we'll go over this sounds like Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm noticing something here. So estimates of autism prevalence in anorexia populations range from 20 to 30%.

A study at the National Specialist Eating Disorders Service at Maudsley Hospital found that [00:05:00] 35 percent of women met the criteria for an autism spectrum disorder. We also know that autism and ADHD commonly co occur in a recent meta analysis that range from 63 studies between 40 and 70 percent with bulimia.

This was Rong et al. 2021. And then anorexia nervosa carries the highest mortality rate of any health disorder at a 10 to 20 Suicide or death risk from this is bernstein 2023 and martin et al 2015 All right So what I'm pointing out when I point out like the suicide risk here This is to say that even if transness is a culturally locked phenomenon That doesn't mean that these people are not experiencing something that is loud enough to get them to kill themselves and simone is a like sane logical person who you guys apparently like hearing her opinions She almost died of anorexia and she also happens to be autistic.

So, do you want to Do you want to talk to that at all before we go further here? [00:06:00]

Simone Collins: Yeah. When you're saying this, hearing it and you, you putting the pieces together, this does make a lot of intuitive sense. And I think it comes down to autistic people committing to the bit. And, and having, when they have a special interest, they just actually go all the way.

They just actually do it. Other people dabble. Autistic people go all the way, you know, there are train enthusiastic and then there are autistic train enthusiasts and you know, you know, like those are the ones are the train conventions. Those are the ones going to the train pilgrimage sites. And then, you know, you have people with eating disorders.

It takes a lot of discipline, like an inhuman level, you know, beyond the level of proper intuition or. You know, the human body has a lot of ways of resisting starvation, right? Like, it's pretty good at controlling for that. So I think you need something else super out of whack to be able to commit to that.

And it makes the same sense. Gender transition requires a huge amount of [00:07:00] commitment. And you have to be committed to the point of tone deafness. to getting there. And I think also framing anorexia as a body dysmorphia driven by a desire to look beautiful is misleading and may misstate what people think anorexia is.

They think anorexia is the pretty popular girl who talks about dieting when anorexia is often the very not pretty girl who looks like Skeletor, who is clearly not doing this to look good. It's commitment to the bed.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, and I by the way, how, how light did you get in college when you were doing this?

Simone Collins: It was high school. I think the lightest I ever was was 98 pounds. I'm currently like 123 pounds, which is like the minimum safe weight I can have.

Malcolm Collins: I'm five foot eight and a half. Yeah. So, I would note here, that this also can help you understand something, which is [00:08:00] like, if, as a non autistic person, you will struggle to understand how a person with anorexia, who looks like Skeletor, can be standing there and being like, I'm too fat.

Like, but now, now in your head, you're like, Think about the autistic train enthusiast, you know, they don't understand how crazy they look when they're there talking to you about a whatever training. You're like, I do not. How do you not understand that? I don't care about this, but now think about the like, don't you have

Simone Collins: enough trains?

And they're like,

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, now think about this in the context of a trans person, which is like, wait, why, why won't everyone accept me? Like, why can't I be on women's sports teams? Why can't I, you know, like you, we need to go 100 percent with this. We can't be like, let's do this in a reasonable way where like, I'm not like an active impediment to other people living their lives, you know?

Simone Collins: Yeah. And then even, even the threat of death [00:09:00] as anorexia demonstrates with that high mortality rate you pointed out. Is not at all of interest or relevant. So this is very

Malcolm Collins: important here is this claim is not saying that they are Faking it or that they are imagining it or that they are Yeah, what we are saying is it's a culturally bound illness, but culturally bound illnesses are illnesses

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: so we're gonna keep going here a large scale study published in nature communications in 2020 Found that 24 percent of transgender and gender diverse respondents were autistic compared to five percent of cisgender participants The study analyzed data from 641, 000 participants across five data sets, including survey data, population studies, and online questionnaires.

Studies have found that the lifetime prevalence of eating disorders is also noticeably higher in transgender men, 10. 5 percent in transgender women, 8. 1 percent compared to 4 percent non autistic females, 0. 3% non autistic male. So just like astronomically higher.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Now here is where the real breakthrough for me came from.

Okay. [00:10:00] This is going to shock you, so I decided to go and read more about from the perspective of like psychiatrists or psychologists who work with people who have anorexia, why autism might lead to that. And when I started reading their explanation, if you just replace these words like you change out the word eating with gender expression or you change out the word, you know, like, autism with gender dysphoria, you're going to be like, Oh my God, this is such a good explanation.

Really? Oh, can you read us some quotes? I'm going to go through.

Simone Collins: Oh!

Malcolm Collins: Lever and Goertz, 2016, found that up to 79 percent of autistic adults met diagnostic criteria for a mental health condition, including depression, anxiety, and eating disorders. We also know that many autistic individuals struggle to emotionally self rep.

regulate, use internal strategies to calm down like breathing, and co regulate, be soothed by another person, so they find other ways to self soothe or feel okay. [00:11:00] And one example is by eating or not eating. Sensory sensitivities are extremely common in autism, so much so that they form part of the standard diagnostic criteria, APA 2022.

Eating involves all five senses, and interception, or the capacity to sense internal body sensations, such as hunger satiation. It is perhaps unsurprising that eating disorders are overrepresented in the autistic population. So let's re read that. Your sense of gender identity involves all five senses and interception.

The capacity to sense internal body sensations, such as any of the things associated with gender dysphoria. Okay, let's keep going here. Unfortunately, many autistic individuals in our society experience loneliness. Perkinson et al., 2017. Bullying and abuse, Rumble, 2019. They may use restrictive eating patterns as a way of distracting themselves from these difficulties and numb the emotional pain.

As one autistic person nervosa said, I can get [00:12:00] engrossed in food and exercise and just forget about everything else. Okay, they may use gender dysphoria as a way of distracting themselves from these difficulties and numb the emotional pain. Yeah, going through a transition is, is, is

Simone Collins: physically, mentally, socially, it's, it's, it's, it will completely take over your life.

And so you don't have any room to worry. That's actually a really good point. And like I pointed out, for example, that having kids. It's an amazing anxiety combat tool because you simply don't have time or mental space to be tired or stressed or worried. Like you're just going to child maxing is a new transition.

Yes. Let's just let, can we, can we hijack this? Can we, but yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. And that, that doesn't, yeah, absolutely. Controlling. The

Malcolm Collins: thing that people have noticed is that the pronatalist movement is like overwhelmingly autistic and that's the rumor. Oh my gosh, it is! Are

Simone Collins: we the new trans?

This is so exciting! It'd

Malcolm Collins: be [00:13:00] so fun if a bunch of autistic people are like spamming 20 kids because it's like their special interest. Let's do it! The Greater Replacement Theory

Simone Collins: is happening!

Malcolm Collins: The Hottest!

Simone Collins: It's happening!

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so. I mean, I think that's kind of why you're doing it, right? Like, you get really into pregnancy and you get into all the measuring and everything.

The measuring,

Simone Collins: the

appointments, making sure All the hormone shots and

Malcolm Collins: everything you have to do. Yeah, all the It's very similar to transition in a way. And she gets really actively distressed when she's not pregnant, especially right after a birth. You know what? Oh my god, I'm trans pregnant?

Simone Collins: Oh, you have, you have gender dysphoria when you're pregnant?

I have, I have fertility dysphoria. I have I have pregnancy dysphoria, gestational dysphoria. There we go. I mean, that's the thing that some

Malcolm Collins: trans people experience, right? You know, they, they want to be pregnant.

Simone Collins: That, that I, it, yeah, my heart goes out to them.

Trans woman to have a successful uterus transplant, ovaries and eggs included. [00:14:00] And I want to be the first trans woman to have an abortion.

Mrs. Garrison. You can't have an abortion. Don't you tell me what I can and can't do with my body! A woman has a right to choose! You can't get pregnant. But I missed my period. You can't have periods either. You mean, I'll never know what it feels like to have a baby growing inside me and then scramble its brains and vacuum it out? This would mean I'm not really a woman, it's, I'm just a, I'm just a guy with a mutilated penis!

Basically, yes. Oh boy, do I feel like a jackass.

Malcolm Collins: Conversely, they may use comfort eating to overcome difficult feelings associated with socializing. Many social occasions are paired with eating, socializing can be difficult and anxiety provoking for an autistic person. See, conversely, they may use gender displays to overcome difficult feelings associated with socializing. Many social occasions are paired with gender displays. [00:15:00] Socializing can be difficult and anxiety provoking for an autistic person. You see? It's all, it's all falling together for me here, okay? Eating disorders often begin in puberty. Just as the social world becomes more complex and the autistic person experiences more problems navigating changing social Expectations and trying to connect with their peers and quote unquote fit in they often feel very different from their peers and may become immense As a way of coping they may believe that they do not fit in socially because their body or appearance So seek to change them both it is common for teenagers to connect with peers through this common interest But an autistic teenager may be unable to connect with interests of non autistic groups You As they become more fascinated with eating disorder behaviors, they become accepted in a peer group that embraces this culture.

Some autistic teenagers will focus on dieting and appearance as a way of being included and build a sense of identity. All right, Simone, so let's reread that, but change a few things here. Oh boy. [00:16:00] Trans disorders often begin in puberty, just as the social world becomes more complex and the autistic person experiences more problems navigating changing social expectations and trying to connect with their peers and fit in.

They feel very different from their peers and may become immersed in gender transition as a way of coping. They may believe that they do not fit in socially because of their body. I'm not even having to change the words here because of their body and their appearance. So they seek to change them both.

Oh, It is common for teenagers to connect with peers through a common interest, but a autistic teenager may not be able to connect with the interests of non autistic groups. Again, I'm not having to change any of the words here.

Simone Collins: As they become

Malcolm Collins: more fascinated with gender transition and trans communities, they may become accepted in a peer group that embraces this culture.

Some autistic teenagers will focus on gender transition and appearance as a way of being included and build a sense of identity. It, the overlap is [00:17:00] so strong. Intense. And that's what was found in a different community that also has all of these over, other overlaps here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Wow. So, to keep going here.

No, it's just like the entire thing reads like it's about trans individuals. But it, but it helped me understand it from this other perspective. Alternate perspective. But you know what I'm doing,

Simone Collins: I'm there. Then I'm replacing this with pregnancy and like pregnancy communities and fertility communities.

I'm

Malcolm Collins: like, Oh, hello. Can we create a disease in our culture around girls who want hot autistic girls who want to get pregnant all the time? This is the thing. People online are like, Oh, this is like a fetish. They're like, Oh, they must have a breeding fetish. And it's like, no, it's a special interest. It's so much worse than that.

It's about autism. It's about body dysmorphia, guys. Oh my God, if we could get, if we could get pernatalism categorized in the same way that like trans people get like special rights [00:18:00] and stuff like that that you as a pregnant person who is autistic and it's like your special interest, you've got to get all these special rights because now, you know, well, You know, you're a protected class, right?

It's, it's no longer a wholesome thing. It's a weird sex thing or a weird gender thing. And as soon as it's that, now we just need to embrace that aspect of prenatalism. Right.

Simone Collins: I will say here, you know, to all the, the hate watchers who I see the comments.

Malcolm Collins: Our comment section is like 95 percent votes on even our most hated videos.

Wow.

Simone Collins: Okay. Well, I guess I would say that there are people Who are they take umbrage to the idea of people having children for quote, unquote, the wrong reasons, like, because it's an autistic special interest to this being one example, right? Or for ideological reasons, instead of just loving children, I think, honestly, and this is something I've heard other very pronatalist people say.

You kind of have to have an ideological or logical or special interest reason to begin having kids because it's [00:19:00] really hard to get started. Then once you actually get to know them as people, you're having kids because they're amazing people. And you realize that one of the most meaningful thing you could ever do is create an amazing life for them and bring amazing, wonderful people into the world and give them the best possible life.

Okay. So you start out essentially doing it for the wrong reason or for a heartless reason, and then you start doing it for the heart. I just want to, I just want to point out that it's not wrong for someone to like use special interests or ideology or logic to get someone started, because you can't really, you can't show someone, for example, what it's like to be in love.

Until they're actually in love, right? You know, they have to get, they have to be interested in getting in love from a logical standpoint first, before it happens, or it just kind of happens naturally, you know, they, they fall in love by mistake, just like you might get pregnant by mistake and have kids by mistake.

I just wanted to comment on some very frequent [00:20:00] pointed remarks about, Oh, like, wasn't it terrible that pronatalists would be having children just because they think it's important to have children. This

Malcolm Collins: is the worst reason to have to moan. It's when we need to keep up the facade. Our children live a gray.

And dull and, and, and, and, and dreary existence. Yes. Look, look miserable Indy. I mean, look, we're, we don't eat our house in the winter. This is me wearing a warm winter coat inside, right? Like, yeah. And

Simone Collins: Indy's wearing a snowsuit. Cause of course she is.

Malcolm Collins: Clearly our, our drive towards extreme levels of temperance is where I'd say, I'd say with discipline to try to work on our internal discipline by, by not indulging in pointless.

Simone Collins: She's so sad. She's so depressed. Pro. I see it in her

Malcolm Collins: eyes. That's that her eyes. We did this episode on the, the, the girl who went and shot up at school. That's what she looked like. Same eyes. I see it, Simone.

Simone Collins: I see it.

Malcolm Collins: I see it. . [00:21:00] She knows, she knows she's a mistake. Just like that girl, her parents had her as a mistake.

Oh, I had

Simone Collins: for all the wrong reasons, and, oh, you're so not loved.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so, Simone, hold on, I gotta continue here. Okay. I'm not gonna keep reading it both ways anymore, because, like, it just gets so comical at this point. Yeah. Sometimes, restricted eating can commence because the person seeks to remain asexual and androgynous.

Sometimes, puberty blockers can commence because Okay. Fearing change and disliking the body changes that start to occur during puberty. For example, the person may be afraid of becoming an adult, and the changes this will bring to their lives, feeling incapable of getting a job or living independently, is that they seek to stay in their childlike body.

Oh my god! What?! You see why, like, when I started reading this, I was like, oh my god, revelation moment. This is the same phenomenon. Yeah. Okay, we found that autistic people often [00:22:00] experience difficulties discerning the character or personality of others, including their own personality. They often define themselves in terms of their interests and knowledge, rather than in terms of personality descriptors of social roles, such as mother, daughter, or friend.

This difficulty with conceptualizing the self can lead to over reliance on a self identification in terms of physical appearance, including their weight, rather than their character and other personality traits. qualities here. We say, including their gender rather than their character or other personality qualities.

Because in reality, your gender should not be that important to you. Like to a normal person, like I'd say myself, if I woke up the other day and I was in a woman's body, I'd just be like, okay, I'll figure out how to make this work. Like, I wouldn't be like, oh my God, I need to transition back immediately.

And I, this was in the transgender world makes us a gender. And ironically, because both of us feel this way and ironically, a form of transgender, because Agender is a form of genderqueer, and genderqueer is a form of transgender, by I forgot the, the main organization that does [00:23:00] all of this one of the main pride groups or whatever.

So we are technically transgender by their own definition just because I don't, Understand why I would care if I was a different gender. I'm like, I've got to focus on the difference I'm going to make in the world. You would trounce as a woman. I'm just saying, I wouldn't know. I'm even like, it's funny.

Like I wouldn't even be distressed. I'd just be like, Oh, awesome. Like now I can try. And I'd be such a cute guy.

Simone Collins: Like, you know, like taking care of the house. You and I would make a great partner. If you

Malcolm Collins: change nothing about our personality and just the gender. Oh my

Simone Collins: gosh. I would watch the gender swapped AI movie of us that we will eventually create in like two years when that becomes possible.

Malcolm Collins: We become famous enough. There will be rule 34 part of us. That's where they do gender swap or no real city for that. They exist. There's part of it. And then there's rule. There's so many

Simone Collins: rules of the internet. One of the other rules

Malcolm Collins: is that there's gender swapped porn events. So eventually there's going to be gender swapped porn of us.

Anyway part of the international definition of autism is rigidity and thinking APA 2020. Once an autistic person has made a [00:24:00] decision, they can be very determined and stay with the decision despite data and persuasion to the contrary. Commit to the bit!

What? Commit to the bet. That's what they do. For example, the person may decide that their life is far easier and simpler if they follow the rules dictated by eating disorder and therefore are very reluctant to change. Yeah. Simone does this. She still follows the rules of eating disorder and I find this.

Can help you if you've ever interacted. I'm a functional anorexic. Okay? If you've ever interacted with a trans person and they're like, my life is better now. And you're like, yeah, but like, I knew you before this and it's clearly not like you're not as happy as you used to be. You. You have to spend all of this money every month on this.

You are not widely accepted. You know, a lot of people treat you with discrimination now that didn't treat you with discrimination before, like your life is. Objectively not better, but they're like, no, my life is better now. And it's the same way you're talking to an anorexic person. If you go to an anorexic person, they're like, no, you don't understand.

My [00:25:00] life, gosh, yeah. And if

Simone Collins: I'm thinking about how I felt when I weighed like 98 pounds as a five foot eight and a half woman, and people were like, you need to put on weight. I could imagine that's how it felt. When people are like, you're, you're not passing, like, you should just be a guy again. And this feeling of like, I am not crossing that line.

Yeah, I can feel that. And I, yeah, that, that makes, actually, that makes Gender dysphoria feel a lot more relatable to me. So this is really helpful that you're reading this to me. Thanks, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, right? Like as soon as you, who is an autistic person, who diagnosed autistic who went through this and understanding this is really important for our family because this is something our kids are going to be exposed to.

You know

Simone Collins: it. I mean, Toasty's already showing all of my disordered eating.

Malcolm Collins: All of our kids are autistic so far that can or old enough to be diagnosed. And so, you know, how do. How could somebody have had off anorexia for you, given [00:26:00] that it's a culture, maybe we just need to make our culture so different from the culture around them that they wouldn't even think of it.

Maybe we make the way you relate to gender and sexuality in our culture so different that they wouldn't even think about it.

Simone Collins: No, see, I think that again, just the mere presence of a large family really solves this problem because again, let's go back to that part where they needed something to fill the void or the to drown out the chaos.

That was too noisy, that was so noisy, like a restrictive eating disorder or like gender transition that they didn't have room for social anxiety and a large family will do that. The responsibilities of being in a large family will do that. The chaos of being in a large family, I really think that I, and I'd love to see research on this.

If rates of both gender dysphoria and Anorexia and cutting and all these other, I would say, like, kind of related disorders are [00:27:00] lower when there are 5 plus children. And I really think the key is 5 plus children. And I don't, I would not say that Elon Musk's family counts because they have. Enough supplementary care where the kids aren't growing up in a highly constrained environment, like resource constrained and like cramped and chaotic.

Like, unfortunately they have been given too much space for anxiety to creep in. Through their privilege. Yeah, they're too privileged.

Malcolm Collins: We got a small house like this where you've always got other people in a room with you and you're always There's no room for the

Simone Collins: social anxiety. There's just no, like, you're, you're literally too tired and, like, fed up with it all to have room for social anxiety.

You give zero s***s at that point. Which is so beautiful! Like, the word that was used in Hannah's Children So it was something along the lines of, of having enough children to burn the selfishness out of you. And it really is burned away like a cleansing [00:28:00] fire. It's so cool.

Malcolm Collins: Simone, I love you, by the way.

You're fantastic in the way you talk about this. , next. There are other types of thinking that are characteristics of autism and may be a risk factor for developing an eating disorder. For example, black and white thinking. The person may think, if I am not thin, then I am fat.

And hold on, I'd note here that and sees weight as a dichotomy rather than a range of acceptable weights. So think about this in terms of gender presentation, right? They may be like, I'm a girl, but I like some boy things, or I'm a boy, but I like some girl things. And because of, instead of being able to be like, well, you can present your gender in a way that like, well, then it

Simone Collins: means that I'm a girl or it means that I'm a boy.

Exactly. Yeah. You have to, this is the systematizing part of autism where it has to be in the category. And that's why I'm pretty sure that Titan also is autistic because she loves categorizing. Oh my gosh. She'll just sit and sort her dinner for like an hour. Have you

Malcolm Collins: noticed that? No, [00:29:00] they can stick very rigidly to a single number on the weighted scale as being the only desirable number Even though that number puts them at a life threatening weight part of the rigidity of thinking it can be what we have called the And and this is what I I I know here.

Like with a trans individual you can be like But your suicide risk is super high now. Like, your mental health seems really poor right now. Like, why do you think this is a preferable position? And they're just like, because it is. Because it needs to fit. The thing needs to fit. And this is the only acceptable way of doing this.

Simone Collins: The risk of death has absolutely zero bearing. When I was 98, And I weighed in at 98 pounds. I was like, all right, so let's get to 97. All right. Good job. Let's keep going There was no there is no stopping point with these things and there is no concern About health or death.

Malcolm Collins: Yes and so in the past this is called the frank sinatra syndrome or the my way [00:30:00] Syndrome, once the person has decided on their beliefs about their weight, or you could say gender expression, the rules around their eating and exercise patterns, you could say their presentation they can be very rigid.

They are not open to other people's advice or opinions, even if these are based on scientific evidence. You know, I could have gone to you as papers on, you know, the correct weight ranges, healthy ranges. I could have said, why? Like, what's the point of this weight? And you'd be like I feel more comfortable this way.

You know, Imagine how bad anorexic would get as we as a society started accepting it, right? And we're like, pro Anna, for the win, pro You can't, you can't hate on someone for being pro Anna. Oh yeah, if we, if we

Simone Collins: defended people's right to continue to starve themselves. Like,

how dare you put her in a recovery home, she, she identifies, you

Malcolm Collins: put anorexic people in recovery home and they're like, this is like, you know, you're denying their identity.

Yeah. Transitioning gay people. Although

Simone Collins: you know, my, my dad, God bless his genius. [00:31:00] He, he somehow figured out how to do that. He, he enabled me to maintain my status as someone with a severe eating disorder and not die by giving me a food scale and a software program. Where I could track everything I ate and then all the calories I burned using fitness trackers or just logging.

And what I think that's like for, for gender dysphoria though, it would probably involve like giving other categories or I would probably like introducing different definitions of gender, possibly introducing them to like the concept of, of Louis the 14th's Brother whose name I'm forgetting. Oh, I, I, yeah, I actually love this idea.

Malcolm Collins: So you actually fix it by going

Simone Collins: You have to change the categories. Yeah, you have to be like, Oh, but you're, you're like, you're more likely, you are manifesting like, what was it? Louis Philippe? I can't remember his name. He was so badass. But you just have to be like, you have the wrong, sorry, you have misunderstood the categorization [00:32:00] system.

Actually, you're sub level A. B5 4. And

Malcolm Collins: parts of the community have basically done this. We're like, I'll meet people and we'll see them online who identify as trans, but have done literally nothing in terms of gender transition or anything like that. They're just like, Oh, I'm like category B7, subsection 15.

Fascinating. I think you're right. Yeah. And it's, it's a, it's a solution. Yes. And

Simone Collins: is always the right answer with children. Yes. And.

Malcolm Collins: One of the qualities of autism is the intensity of the interests a person develops and the pleasure that these interests bring. One of the reasons eating disorders can develop is because of an intellectual fascination with eating and its effects on the body, as well as the numbers involved.

For example, in terms of calories for different foods. Okay, I just have to, well, one of the reasons for gender transition can develop is an intellectual fascination with puberty and gender and its effects on the body, as well as the numbers involved. And I absolutely see this in the trans community, they're like, my numbers!

[00:33:00] Let's, let's share my numbers!

Simone Collins: Absolutely yes.

Malcolm Collins: They may enjoy exploring eating patterns, rules, and weight. They may keep schedules and spreadsheets or use apps to record progress. Entering numbers and seeking patterns can be very enjoyable aspect of their interest. The eating disorder practices become a source of enjoyment and they embrace being.

An expert in the eating disorder. Their expertise and commitment are admired by others within the eating disorder. Social media can be a way of sharing their knowledge and gaining dopamine through the number of likes achieved through their social media page. Is that not something we see with people going through transition?

Simone Collins: Nail on the head. Wow. I mean, done. I feel like the argument has been, has been presented. This is insane.

Malcolm Collins: Well, there was actually, I know you need to go soon, but for people to believe this, there's a few things we need to go into. We need to go into evidence that, because a lot of people will be like, wait, what's the evidence that anorexia is a [00:34:00] cultural phenomenon, right?

So just to read here, this is from Scott Alexander. Anorexia was mostly unknown in the west until becoming trendy in the mid 1800s. During that period, doctors reported a high prevalence of anorexia among quote unquote hysterics, but the fad ended after about 10 or 20 years and went back to being basically unknown.

In 1983, a famous singer, Karen Carpenter, died of anorexia, thrusting it back into national news, and suddenly lots of people in the west were anorexic again. Meanwhile, foreign doctors who trained in the west went back to their countries. A search far and wide for it and found almost nothing. The few cases they did see didn't resemble the typical Western version at all.

For example, one Hong Kong psychiatrist was able to find a woman who refused to eat out of grief when her boyfriend left her, but she didn't think she was fat or feel any cultural pressure to be thinner. And this doesn't appear like the this is like a self punishment thing. The absence of anorexia abroad was especially surprising.

Since anorexics tend to end up in the hospital with extremely noticeable malnutrition, that doesn't really mimic anything else. It's not [00:35:00] really possible to hide severe anorexia in the way you can hide severe depression. In 1994, Hong Kong got its own Karen Carpenter, a young girl died of anorexia setting off a national pandemic and many public awareness campaigns.

Near instantly, anorexia rate shot up to the same level as the West, with appropriate number of people presenting to hospital ERs with severe malnutrition. A study of the Caribbean island of, and this is not forbidden, this And in post here, one thing I'm going to add is a description of some of the alternate gender displays that you get in different countries.

Because trans people will point to them as trans just because they're a nonconforming gender display. Yeah. But they don't Actually, they, they point to like incredibly rigid social structures in these countries or, or tribes where like if a man takes on like a woman's job or is gay, they'll say, oh, he's actually a [00:36:00] woman.

That's, that's the way it often works. It's nothing like transgenderism in the West. It's nothing like, oh, I don't feel comfortable in my body or something like that. It's like, oh, well, that guy's a florist. So we, we treat him like he's a woman. And then you. female pronouns for him because that's a woman's job.

And you know,

Simone Collins: or

Malcolm Collins: that guy likes sleeping with guys and you know, women do that. So we used like a women, it's a tweak basically. That's, that's what you're seeing, you know, not this big effort to gender transition or anything like that.

You've got the FATF IAM of Simoa who are. If feminine males who are attracted to other males in the United States, this is not what we would call trans. This is what we would call a twink.

This is also seems to be the case of the MOOCs. of Southern Mexico. Which are again, just males who are a feminine and attracted to other males.

Twinkie sub gay males. That's what they are not trans.

Then you have the bug.

So people of Southern Indonesia. And they believe in [00:37:00] five genders and people will say, oh, , this, this one of the genders, the color. Maybe these are, , trans people. And so, , let's describe these individuals and see what you would classify them as in our society. They do not undergo any sort of feminization surgery or feminization practices. But they are males who are attracted to other males. And are predominantly involved in industries like wedding planning. , yes, it sounds very much like a trans now. That's a f*****g gay person.

Okay. That's a f*****g gay person. Trans people really seem to only exist within the urban monoculture,

In every one of these instances, the alternate gender identity that these individuals are assigned. Appears to be downstream of the gender they are attracted to. So if I am attracted to men, I am assigned a female gender. And if I am attracted to. Females. I am [00:38:00] assigned a male gender that is a very different than the Western version of transgenderism. I think too. Find a phenomenon that you could consider culturally analogous to the transgender phenomenon in the United States. You would need to find a culture in which individuals are considered the opposite gender from their birth gender. But are still attracted to the gender

their birth gender would be expected to be attracted to. I E trans women who are attracted to women or trans men who are attracted to men and you just don't see this anywhere else. I have found in history.

Or in any culture?

trans people only seem to really exist in large numbers in the urban monoculture. And we don't seem to be able to find the phenomenon really anywhere else. You will find cross-dressers throughout history, but they do not appear like the trans phenomenon of today where all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, I need to go through this.

I need to go through this. I need to be recognized for this, or I'm going to [00:39:00] kill myself. It's very much.

Oh, there's that weird guy or girl who likes dressing up as somebody else. Like that's, that's cool. Or, oh, a girl's dressing up as guys so that she can serve in the military or some other function that she wouldn't be able to serve as a woman, but not out of this, like obsession was being recognized. As another gender. That's a completely modern phenomenon.

If you're wondering why I'm not going into two spirit people. ,

It's because my read of the evidence that they're mostly a modern fabrication and didn't exist in wide numbers.

Across the native American cultures. However,

where they did exist. They typically meant one of two things. It was either when a man or woman held a job that was typically associated with the other gender. I E. If I was a man and I was a wedding planner, I would be called a woman in this tribe. And, , that is not a sign of gender flexibility. That is a sign of intense gender rigidity.

, or it was a way to talk about Twinkie, homosexual men,

Which as we have seen, it is not [00:40:00] uncommon for cultures to categorize as women. And to be honest, I kind of get it.,

I actually don't know of, of, of gender transition really exists that widely in any other culture.

I take that back. It does exist pretty widely in some middle Eastern cultures as a cure for gayness, but I'm pretty sure that no one would consider that the same phenomenon is what's going on in the United States. I E. If there's a guy who likes sleeping with guys. Well, you know, obviously if he's gay, he needs to be put to death, but you can fix that by turning him into a woman.

It also exists in the form of his rise. In, , India, Pakistan area. This is communities of. Born males who, if they are living in poverty or kicked out of their family. , go live in these communities where they are. , castrated or gender transition, whatever you want to say so that they can act as sex workers for other men. Again, not anything like you would think a modern, transgender individual, although the transgender community calls them transgender.

Calling [00:41:00] someone in poverty who was castrated, so they could be used for sex work. Transgender one to me feels incredibly offensive. , but to, , it would be sort of the equivalent of calling a cus. Trato transgender. If you're not familiar with Toronto is that's. , It's a historic thing in Italy, where they would castrate young boys who were very good singers so that they could continue to sing, , in the equivalent of a. , the high pitches.

And I want to be absolutely clear here, what we are not arguing.

Is that.

Fluid gender identity didn't exist. Historically, historically there is a wide range of gender presentation. What we're specifically addressing here is the modern phenomenon where somebody, all of a sudden starts obsessing over the ways that other people interpret their gender identity. And the way that they see their own gender identity and then enters the state where they feel like they're going to kill themselves.

If people don't start seeing their gender identity, the way that they want them to.

[00:42:00] This is why we did the episode on members, stealing witches, which is a culture bound illness, similar to anorexia or gender dysphoria in the United States. Because we can look at something like that as outsiders and have a laugh. But from within that culture's perspective, it is very real.

So real that some people end up killing their own babies over it. Accidentally of course, , or end up permanently dismembering their genitalium over it. , and so when we hear about this, we have a laugh at them. Because we don't have something like this was in our culture, but when they hear about something like gender dysphoria in our culture, they have a laugh at us.

Speaker 13: That a dumb question? No. No. It'll look like to if you want to become a lady, but your man, you have something wrong in your Something wrong. Something wrong in your family.

Speaker 12: Something wrong in you.

Malcolm Collins: And unfortunately this new understanding of what gender dysphoria [00:43:00] and transgender ism is, has moved me to a position.

Where I am. Maybe more antagonistic towards openly supporting any form of alternative gender identity than I was historically, because if this is accurate, it means that generally supporting this as a society. Is just as harmful as being supportive of something like the pro Ana movement. This is a movement that promotes anorexia. , in is made up of primarily anorexic people.

, And people will be like, but I feel better now in the same way that anorexic people, you know, as I said, I've had anorexic friends in the past and they were like, look, I feel better. I feel accepted. I finally feel comfortable in my body. And I'm like, as an outsider, Who has looking in on you and who has known you for a long time?

I can see that that's. A delusion. You were less happy now than you've ever been. This is, this is not healthy for you.

But if I tell you that you will cut me out of your life and stop talking to me.,

It's something anorexic people often do [00:44:00] to people who try to shake them out of it.

and if you look at it, The transgender person is, is listening to this. And they're like, yeah, but. I feel better now than I did historically. , and I'm like, well, I'm sorry.

I can just look at this statistics on trans individuals and see that the suicide rate goes way up. I can see that. , we even know from the Travis doc clinic, , that people put on. , do you have any blockers? , when you're put on puberty blockers, your suicide rate actually goes up. Now they were suppressing this information because their approach trans clinic.

I mean it's a community was a 50% attempted suicide rate. If you were aware that

didn't exist in other cultures, you'd be like, well, why are we making room for it was in our culture.

And my historic position was. Some real trans individuals probably exist, but a large part of the movement is social. , and I still hold this position. As I said at the beginning, I think about 30%. It's probably biological.

However the damage done by the social part of the movement is so severe. And so [00:45:00] demonstrable at this point. That I am beginning to rethink whether it is a net, good to society, to support trans individuals for the small faction that are real.

But I don't even know if it would really hurt those individuals because. I assume with the real trans individuals, they don't particularly care how other people see their gender presentation.

They just have preferences and thought patterns that match the opposite gender.

They would be okay with a society that just accepted more fluid forms of gender presentation. Whereas when we're talking about this new form of transness,

I w I guess I'd call it gender obsession. A overwhelming obsession with how you perceive your own gender and how other people are perceiving your gender. , because . That leads to a huge amount of suffering. And. These people are hurting.

And I think that this can be occluded from trans individuals because they, when they develop gender dysphoria, they begin to look at [00:46:00] the way a person's body looks. And stop looking at simple things. Like the way their eyes look. So take an individual like Elliot page

look at his eyes. Pre and post transition. Or look at Dylan Mulvaney is either look at really any public facing trans individuals, eyes pre and post transition. And you will notice post-transition. There's something like a spark. That has left them. And it's really, really sad to see.

And I think trans individuals don't see this because they're so focused on every other part of that person's body and gender identity. That they don't see that the person. Has become that anorexic person who is desperately trying to tell you and everyone else that they're genuinely happy and satisfied

Simone Collins: so yeah, that's wow. No, you've completely You've experienced a paradigm change. I've now experienced a paradigm change. And I have a lot more empathy for [00:47:00] people who have gender dysphoria because now I realize I didn't do, basically experience the exact same thing, but with Eating and pregnancy. Oh Well, now we've got

Malcolm Collins: to be more worried about our kids, you know?

No,

Simone Collins: we were already worried. We already knew that autistic kids were disproportionately But I, but

Malcolm Collins: I think that they're just, like, like, like, Modeled and aesthetic wise so similar anorexia and gender dysphoria.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And in terms of talking to individuals because I had a cousin who was anorexic, for example, and I just remember, you know, trying to talk to her about it.

You know,

Simone Collins: yeah, well, there is a logic, but you have to speak. Autism, fortunately.

Malcolm Collins: And she was likely autistic. We speak autism. And knowing you now and knowing her, she was like one of the only really fun people in my family. So I was always like, Oh, you know, she, she gets me because she, she broke the social norms more, but it was [00:48:00] likely because she was autistic.

Simone Collins: Maybe.

Malcolm Collins: So do you want to go over some other culture bound syndrome and do you have to head out?

Simone Collins: I really have to go both. Cause I have to change a poopy diaper. We might add

Malcolm Collins: these in another day.

Simone Collins: I know, I, I, I, We'll do a

Malcolm Collins: separate episode on different culture bound syndromes. These have been really fun episodes to record.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and this, we've already, we're 37 minutes in.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, this will be a different episode. And I've got a life in Describe if you want to continue. Oh, go to the natalism conference.

Simone Collins: Use the, use the code Collins for a 10 percent off. We will be there. So many cool people will be there. It is going to be awesome.

It is an awesome,

Malcolm Collins: you can find your autistic husband. Yes.

Simone Collins: Annual autistic marriage market taking place Austin this March. It's going to be, so we got to make sure they do a

Malcolm Collins: dating market this year. We should talk with Kevin about that. Do we have to call set up by the way? I know I need to get one on the books.

Well, I just want to say, I, so also this, this was [00:49:00] weird, like shifting for you too. Right? Like when I read it, I was like,

Simone Collins: yeah, but it also, it, it, it helps me understand what we would need to do. Just like my dad found a way. To enable me to be a functional anorexic, one can easily enable someone to be a functional trans person.

By functional, I mean trans in a way where they're less likely to die. Just like I am I am, I have an eating disorder in a way where I'm far less likely to die. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: and I think that this can also help trans people just in modeling the way that they come off to outsiders and the way that they can think about themselves.

So like, yeah. If you're a trans person and you've had a friend who suffered from anorexia before and you tried to talk to them about like, you're clearly hurting yourself, I know you say you feel better like this, but I've seen you [00:50:00] before this. I've seen you after this. This is not the thing. And then this person begins retreating more and more into pro ana communities.

You don't know what pro ana is. These are pro anorexia, anorexia supporting communities where they'll post like inspiration of like really sickly looking people. Thinspo.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: So it's called if you have a friend who's gone down that rabbit hole, that's how other people feel when they're talking to you.

No,

Simone Collins: this will help everyone understand everyone else. This is good. Okay. I'm going off to get my teeth cleaned and change a poopy diaper. I love you so much. And steak tonight. Wagyu. Let's do it. We didn't buy Wagyu ourselves.

Malcolm Collins: I'm not at that indulgent. I got it for Christmas. Okay. I got it for Christmas.

Simone Collins: Best Christmas present. Oh my gosh. Amazing. Thank you. Okay. Love you. Bye.

Malcolm Collins: Love you. Bye.

Speaker 11: There's snow on the window. There's snow on the window. Snowy cake. It's snowing. It's snowing. Isn't it pretty, Tyson? Yeah. There's so much. I make it all [00:51:00] to the house. It's snowing.

What do you see, Octavian? I see the Christmas tree. Are you happy? Yeah. Testy, are you happy? I'm sick in it. I'm sick in it.

This episode delves into a strange and alarming conspiracy theory involving French intelligence and African men's penises. The video covers the cultural phenomenon of penis theft fears, exploring historical and modern accounts from Africa, Asia, and even Europe. Various anecdotes and scholarly work are reviewed, blending serious investigation with the absurdity of the claims. The narrative unfolds with humor, shock, and deep cultural insights, leading to a broader discussion on societal and medical interpretations of such unique fears.

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] french intelligence services, for example, Filled with neo colonial hatred and envy of Africans are now using secret nanotechnology innovations to steal penises from African men in order to reverse the extinction of Europeans unwilling to bear children.

And no matter how crazy you may think this is. The reality is even more terrifying.

Malcolm Collins: this is like cultural difference here. Even if I was certain, I woke up and I was certain that a ghost was trying to take my penis.

Huh. The last thing I would do is run out of the house screaming, my penis is shrinking, my penis is shrinking, dear god, my penis is shrinking. That would be the last thought in my mind. Run around. Beating a gong! Oh my god, my penis is freezing! And then! And then this is how I know this is a different culture.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: If I saw another man [00:01:00] running around beating a gong saying, dear God, my penis is shrinking. My last thought would be to run up and grab his penis along with another man and make loud noises to scare away a ghost,

Actually, I actually kind of like the idea of teaching them that like cultures we don't want them engaging with might try to steal their penises. Be like, hey, you gotta be really careful with this urban monoculture stuff. People with blue hair, steal penises. I

Simone Collins: mean, they do. Technically. So I'm okay with saying that.

Like, they

Malcolm Collins: actually, they actually do.

Simone Collins: They do steal penises

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Simone. They've caught us. Oh no! The penis stealing! It's gone too far! We, we, we let our hands slip!

Damn it!

Simone Collins: Huh.

Malcolm Collins: I'll read this. This is a quote from a Scott Alexander piece, which I found pretty shocking. And we're going to go into this case in [00:02:00] detail, and then go over the history of penis stealing. Which is to say that the pronatalists are penis stealers now. Penis stealing, which update a French diplomat in the Central African Republic is accused of quote, having organized a vast penis theft operation in the country in quote more information here, which described a Q anon style conspiracy in which Western countries , concerned about falling birth rates are stealing African's penises in order to harvest hormones via nanotechnology.

BNN

Speaker 6: Yes, we got a full tank of dicks!

Simone Collins: If you have no technology, can't you just leave the penises on and then do the science inside

Malcolm Collins: the video? No, no, no, there's like reports that we're gonna read about of like trucks filled with penises. Okay. Driven out of the country. Wow. And people are like, I've seen it. I've seen the trucks. And it's all about The penis trucks!

What I love about this is it's all downstream of [00:03:00] fears about fertility rates as a country that isn't having those fears right now is being exposed to them and how are they reacting to them? They're like, Oh, people in Europe and America are freaking out about their fertility rate being too low.

They're coming for our penises.

Simone Collins: Well, they're right, but in the wrong way, right? As you point out, all these wealthy developed countries are heading into demographic collapse. It's real. It's a genuine problem. And they're saying, don't worry, we'll just depend on immigrants from high fertility countries.

And, and like those in Africa for our Labor workforces and and and for everyone else really

Malcolm Collins: only Africa because Latin America is going into fertility class right now. They always actually rates

Simone Collins: their motivation is going to be to keep these African countries poor and therefore very high fertility.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry, add a note to what you just said. Countries only stay above repopulation rate on average even within Africa when the average citizen is earning less than 5, 000 USD per year. So if you wanted to use them as like [00:04:00] human farms, which it appears is like Europe's going plan right now which is horrifying to me that this is the not racist plan, but anyway they, they, they, they cannot allow them to develop.

Simone Collins: And so basically they there's a genuine there should be a genuine fear in Africa of being exploited for fertility and what do we have fear of being exploited for fertility penis doing thing. I mean, we'll say it's metaphorical, right? It's it's metaphorical. Penis stealing. What they really mean to say is,

Malcolm Collins: I'm going to be honest here.

Simone. Okay. If it was possible by nanotechnology to take a person's penis, derive some hormone from it, and then use that hormone to make your own penis larger, there would be a black market. No, no, no, no. And it would predominantly be operational in Africa. Less laws. I'm just saying enough people want bigger penises that there [00:05:00] would be enough demand for a black market for human penises.

Yes, but we're talking

Simone Collins: about fertility, not penis size. Bigger penises do not

Malcolm Collins: produce more

Simone Collins: people.

Malcolm Collins: They link the two. in this actual phrase. No. Oh. They think they're directly correlated. Oh boy. So wait. No, no, I'm not. I'm not going to go there. I'm But we're going to study this phenomenon. We're going to study it in its modern iteration.

We're going to study the history of it. I didn't know that it extended to women, that women were afraid that their nipples would disappear. Nipples? Yeah, there became like these fabs where they would put like barbells through their nipples to prevent them from retracting. People ended up dying from this.

Retracting? Yeah, they thought that they, the way they disappeared is they retracted into the body.

I love, you're like, what? All right, let's go Simone. Yes! Let's! I'm gonna start with a tweet, then go into the article. This is fascinating.

Simone Collins: Okay, so,

[00:06:00] tweets, a French diplomat in hashtag C A R found himself at, quote, the center of a campaign last month in which he was accused of having organized a vast amount Penis theft operation in the country, unquote, this is linking to an article

Malcolm Collins: for months now, rumors of missing male genitals have been stirring up the public in the C. A. R. That's the Central African Republic. The first reports of missing organs came in 2022 from Nadelle, Bangarra, Burbagadi Prefecture. It's not pronounced correct at all.

Speaker 25: Spoke to a trader in Bungui last week He said nanotech is the new form of sneak A single light touch and your pride goes out Then never again will you feel So hold on to hope and hold on to more

Don't let white men come knocking your door

Malcolm Collins: The phenomenon spread to Bambari and has reached Bangui.[00:07:00]

And spread throughout the country and the media, the government and doctors neglect the cases of genital evaporation because of the unproven nature of the phenomenon. Although hundreds of photos that are unlikely to be fabricated are available online. Wait, why would they be unlikely? That is exactly the thing 4chan would fabricate.

That is the first thing I would try to fabricate on 4chan. With

Speaker 7: September 2014, we were excited to release the new iOS 8. Well, 4chan made another marketing campaign that claimed even more sophisticated algorithms that allowed the new iPhone battery to be charged by simply popping the thing in the microwave for two minutes on high. People really did this, by the way. And the news picked up on it, too. Yeah, don't put your phone in the microwave, just to be clear, don't ever, ever Can I do if I microwave my phone? Help. iPhone put in microwave and not working. I know it's stupid but I put my phone in the microwave. Okay, let's say I stuck my iPhone in the microwave. And even the LAPD had to issue a warning after receiving a large number of distressed [00:08:00] phone calls.

Malcolm Collins: With the

Simone Collins: rise of AI, you can now convince millions of people that they're These are real photos.

Malcolm Collins: We can take these, these fears on crack level now. And I, and I hope that 4chan does go and start faking this, please. This is, this is hilarious. Oh boy.

Okay, so.

Simone Collins: There are various versions about the circumstances of the disappearance of penises. Some say that the penis disappears completely, while others note it only shrinks.

Some indicate that the phenomenon is temporary and the genitals can be returned by praying in church. Others insist that this process is irreversible. There are different rumors about the mysterious witch doctor capable of conducting such an inhuman and horrifying ritual. According to the main version, organs disappear after a handshake or any other physical contact with a stranger.

Some eyewitnesses and victims add that the stranger in question was white. People are seriously disturbed, and the matter has already gone [00:09:00] to the point where men attempt to lynch suspected individuals. The question comes up, why are cases of missing genitals still going on? Despite the refutations propagated by the media, locals are reporting that men continue to experience penis theft in different corners of the country.

All these stories are called conspiracy superstitions and tall tales. But in 2024, we are experienced enough to realize what is called conspiracy today may become common knowledge tomorrow. In recent years, we've seen the then called crazy conspiracy theories about Western elite being involved in child abduction, mass orgies, rampant homosexuality, and satanic rituals all turned out to be matter of fact.

Hold on. Hold on. I want to,

Malcolm Collins: this is being a Okay. So for people, the context of this, this is obviously being written by an African conspiracy theorist, likely in the car. Right. Okay. So they don't sound that different. Like they're, they're clearly like, look, I know that this is called a conspiracy right now, but like, hear [00:10:00] me out here.

There's so many photos I have seen. We should actually be a little worried about this. But what I love in addition to this is from the perspective of an African in the C. A. R. Who's like, what are the Western conspiracies that have been proven out? Because this has happened a number of times recently.

Sure. Absolutely. The, the, the, the Mass mass orgies. That one. Okay. That one was proven true. I, I think the child abduction I think that there's, that's one still like a fringe, but mostly accepted on the right right now, but here's the other two. I love rampant homosexuality. This was like a rumor to them.

Like, is this a conspiracy

Simone Collins: theory? Yeah. That's what I'm not sure about. Like, I know that child abduction takes place. We know that orgies take place and we know

Malcolm Collins: No, we're not seeing it from his perspective. Okay. He is an African. Okay. So he likely went to people he knows in his country or outlets in his country.

And he's like, is it true that there's like [00:11:00] rampant homosexuality in the United States? Just like tons and tons of gay people, like corrupting the country. And then the person would be like, let's say they're a missionary or something like that. Right. They'd probably say. Oh, that's not true. Come on, like so conservative Christian missionaries in Africa are like,

Simone Collins: no, there's no homosexuality,

Malcolm Collins: rampant homosexuals at every level of everything in the United States.

But you as an American, you don't even see that as a conspiracy theory. You're like, yeah, it's gays everywhere. Like I got gay friends. Like, what are you talking about? He, a guy in the car were like, you're probably likely to be gay. Killed if you're gay, he was asking other people. Is it really true? There's gays everywhere in the united states and they're like, no, that can't possibly be true And he's like and now it's been proven.

And then the satanic rituals one I love. You know, I I don't know about that one yet It depends on how I don't know, like

Simone Collins: define satanic rituals. So there was that woman on Eurovision who's a witch, but does that count? Like,

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, that's what he's probably talking about. Okay. So you're [00:12:00] right about that.

Yeah. So there is like a big witchcraft community in the United States. And so he probably was like. Are satanic rituals being carried out in the United States? And people were like, no, like you can literally buy them on

Simone Collins: Etsy. Like, I don't understand. Yes, they are. And technically speaking, do they work? I don't think so personally, but that's up to

Malcolm Collins: you.

This is actually the interesting nature of conspiracy theories. It's suddenly become banal and noticeable once they're proven factual. If you said that there are

Simone Collins: rituals now have to be. Five star reviews on Etsy. You just can't really get excited about it anymore. You know, it was funny when they were secret.

Now they're

Malcolm Collins: go to somebody you know, a few years ago. And you'd be like, there are rampant, there are these giant sex parties that the elites of our country go to that have underage people at them. And they'd be like, that is the craziest effing conspiracy theory I've ever heard. And today you mentioned that like, yeah, sure.

Whatever. Like, obviously like Epstein, whatever. Right. You know, you, you go to the, the The, the, the [00:13:00] satanic ritual thing. And you're like, there's secret satanic rituals. And they're like that sounds pretty crazy to me. And then you're like, look on Etsy. And they're like, Oh, that's just a little spell thing.

Like what, what does that thing teenagers

Simone Collins: do? That thing girls do when they go through their goth

Malcolm Collins: phase? I don't know. Like, by the way, for people who haven't seen it, there was an old episode we did called trad wife finds out you can buy spells on when we do a review of these. Anyway, keep going. But I found that to be really interesting, the way that he thinks about conspiracy theories coming from a different cultural environment.

Simone Collins: That is, yeah, that on its own, worth the price of admission. Very entertaining. Okay, I will continue. The moral decay of Western countries is a well known fact, but even the bravest minds could not have foreseen that they were up to this time. French intelligence services, for example, Filled with neo colonial hatred and envy of Africans are now using secret nanotechnology innovations to steal penises from African men in order to reverse the extinction of Europeans [00:14:00] unwilling to bear children.

And no matter how crazy you may think this is. The reality is even more terrifying.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on, before we go further, I need to, because I love getting this perception

Simone Collins: of

Malcolm Collins: both pronatalism as a movement in Europe and in the United States from the perspective of a high fertility country. That has more of its traditional culture intact where

Simone Collins: for that's just so high fertility that they don't even think about it.

They're like, what? Your penis is broken like that. I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: Your penises aren't working. Yeah, I guess your

Simone Collins: penis is

Malcolm Collins: too small. Sorry. That's not what he says. Listen to his words because we say that this is the way Africans think of the West and they're like, oh, no, that can't be true. He says. Europeans unwilling to bear children.

Simone Collins: Okay, so he gets it.

Malcolm Collins: No, but what he's saying is you are not putting in the labor that we're putting in. And, and in this case, we're taking their penises, but what's really happening is we're taking their children, right? Like, he understands that this is unfair and [00:15:00] that Europeans have brought this on themselves.

And then, if you look at the fact that First line of this, what is he, the African, thinking of the West right now? The moral decay of Western countries is a well known fact, but even the bravest of minds could not have foreseen what they were up to this time.

Simone Collins: Like, Oh, Western civilization, God, what have you done now?

What

Malcolm Collins: we'll be studying here is how fears of penis theft typically disappear after westernization. So we'll go into other countries that have, so your country will only be high fertility so long as you're still afraid of the penis stealing, which is, or in this case, scientists and bureaucrats. Well, and

Simone Collins: that's because your dick hasn't been cut off by bureaucracy yet.

I don't know what to say. I mean, maybe we are the dickless ones. Is that what has happened?

Malcolm Collins: I was making earlier, and I really can't emphasize this enough. You could make people's penises longer by stealing other people's penises and There would be a black market for african penises

Simone Collins: fact fact.

Malcolm Collins: They haven't misjudged our [00:16:00] degeneracy. They have misjudged our technology.

Speaker 5: You can't just run around ripping off people's dicks. I have an advanced degree in technology! You're a madman, this ship will never fly!

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Okay continue

Simone Collins: In february 2024 the independent a major global media outlet published an article claiming that the french are Losing their manhood a survey by the french institute of public opinion Ifop found out that That one in four, 24 percent of French adults aged 18 to 69 said they had not had sex for the past year.

Malcolm Collins: I love, I, hold on, I love, you're absolutely right that like a part of his brain is being like, wait, one in four men isn't having sex in the last year? Do they not have penises? Yeah,

Simone Collins: they must not have penises, but this

Malcolm Collins: how How is this, how is this, que c'est possible? I don't know if I said that [00:17:00] anyway.

Simone Collins: And they are the only ones who admitted it.

Malcolm Collins: He meant to write.

He meant to write, and they are only the ones who admitted it. No.

Simone Collins: Yes, I know. But it was right before

Malcolm Collins: not right. okay, I

Simone Collins: know we understand. We just disagree grammatically, but I will read what you said.

Speaker 2: Now you're trying to make me out to be the bad guy. Yes, I'm trying to make you a bad guy. We're both bad guys. We're professional bad guys. Ding. Hello. Please, belittle me in front of my henchmen.

It's a real morale booster. But, but why are we arguing in front of the henchmen anyway? Because the henchmen are standing here. Are you two gonna get a divorce? That's a very pretty costume, Mrs. Monarch. I have a

Malcolm Collins: Fan base.

Speaker 2: That is full of guys that do nothing but play a video game that uses a little plastic baby guitar.

Simone Collins: And they are only the ones who admitted it.

According to medical experts, 64 percent of French men have not had sexual relationships during the year, and this applies only to white men living in France. Now it has become [00:18:00] the problem that threatens national security because men who have lost their manhood are not ready to join the army, are not ready to build a career.

They're only ready to sit in front of a computer and play video games. The French security forces got involved in solving the issue and discovered that there is a certain hormone that is responsible for sexual activity. It is impossible to synthesize this hormone artificially, but it could be obtained from the blood of another man.

Malcolm Collins: I'm sorry. First, I love like the sympathetic magic aspect here. Yeah, just blood they needed. They could just like do blood drives in Africa and pay them for it. It can certainly be cheaper than stealing their penises with nanotechnology. So I love how you get like the derangement here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, the, the, the leaps, the logical leaps that have to be made for the penis theft to actually be.

The logical next step are non trivial.

Malcolm Collins: But it makes sense if you consider that penis theft was a historic [00:19:00] cultural fear of this region. Yes, as Scott Alexander covered in um Well, we'll be going over that after you finish reading this. Awesome, yeah. Such a cool history. History when people used to think witches did it instead of pronatalists.

Right, yeah. And I, I promise I have, I've never stolen a penis. That's exactly what a penis stealer

Simone Collins: would say. Very suspicious. Very suspicious. I will continue the highest level of this hormone was found in the blood of African men. Of course secret developments on the extraction of the hormone have been going on for a long time in 2016, there was an outbreak of penises disappearances in Haiti and the trials were conducted.

The aim of that program was to extract this hormone from men. Later, it turned out that the highest rate of this hormone is not just in African men, but in the Central African Republic, where men are famous for having the longest genitals. [00:20:00] Is that true?

Malcolm Collins: I don't know. I can look it up in post. But what I can say is I love the jingoism going on here.

Pride! Pride! Yes! Google it right now. What

Simone Collins: country has the longest

Malcolm Collins: But I love that this is, this is such a good conspiracy theory because it combines you know, degradation of the outsider is like,

Simone Collins: we're the best perplexity cringing right now. And it's not the country with the longest, rich, erect penis is Sudan with an average length of 7.

07 inches. This is closely followed by the Democratic Republic of Congo, 7. 06 inches, and Ecuador, 6. 93 inches. These measurements are based on studies that include both self reported and measured data, so slight variations in rankings may occur depending on the methodology used.

Malcolm Collins: I would not, I would not use self reported data in this at all,

Simone Collins: like, what?

But I, but [00:21:00] I Make the top three! What's going on? This is the conspiracy. It's the penis length conspiracy. I actually, hold

Malcolm Collins: on. I have a great idea for the pronatalist movement. Yours is longer, isn't it? I don't think that we need to talk about that on air, Simone. Um, But uh, I uh, I will neither confirm nor deny anything in that category.

Simone Collins: I'm still holding out to put this in the base camp Etsy shop, the Malcolm Dildo, just saying, just tell me what price it should be. We'll make money. We can live.

Malcolm Collins: Independently for the rest of our lives. I, I think we need to start a rumor, get it going on four chan and everything like that. Okay. But men with small penises can't make children.

And that if you don't have children , your penis will shrink, can fall off. It must because your penises to make small, small, the only way you can prove that you have a large penis is by having kids. I mean, that's a, or better. I [00:22:00] like the fall off one better. Like your penis will fall off. If you don't have sex, you become a wizard.

If you're a virgin at 31, I think no, you would actually have, I guess the thing, if you don't have kids, if you have sex without having kids like what, for whatever reason, we'll say like, the, the vaginal juices caused your penis to disintegrate and eventually fall off. That's going to be the rumor, right?

Are you, are you okay? You're okay with that one?

Simone Collins: Let's, let's go,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. It's, at this point, I'll take what I can get, man. Because I think, I think, no, I think a lot of guys, they'd be like, Oh, s**t, like, I gotta get married so my penis doesn't fall off, like, I mean, protect the goods. They call them the family jewels for a reason.

We as a society literally used to have myths like this. Like, literally just two generations ago, people were like, Well, if I masturbate too much, I'll go blind. Like, I know.

Simone Collins: Tragic.

Speaker 8: Doctors say the act of masturbation is perfectly normal and a healthy sexual practice. But are you really going to trust doctors?

They're a bunch [00:23:00] of perverts who won't even come into the room until you take your clothes off.

Speaker 9: Oh. Never really thought about it that way.

Simone Collins: Did people like see blind people on the street and be like,

Malcolm Collins: must have masturbated too much? Are we going to tell our kids that?

If you masturbate too much, you'll go blind and crazy.

Simone Collins: Yes. No when I did hear one parent say, Was that one of their sons, she was a mother, saw her naked and he was like, where's your penis? And she's like, well, I didn't eat my vegetables. And ever after that, you know what? Somebody ate their greens.

Somebody

ate their

greens. Oh my god. Somebody ate them. So maybe that's what we should tell our children. I actually already tried that on our children. So far they're not afraid of losing their penises yet. I think we need to like wait a little longer and then I will try to reintroduce this meme.

We'll see. We'll report back.

To carry out the sinister plan, Alexandra Piquet flew to the C. A. [00:24:00] R., according to the official version, he is the first counselor of the head of the public relations department of the French embassy in the Central African Republic. Hold on,

Malcolm Collins: hold on,

Simone Collins: before

Malcolm Collins: we go further.

This random motherfucker's job just got so much harder, like, out of nowhere. This is one of those, like, f**k you individually moments from God. Like, lightning comes down to strike you. You are the king of the penis thieves. And you know, it's like some random, probably dweeby French diplomat, like Is he a real person?

You know his life is in like serious danger over this, right? Like, yeah,

Simone Collins: because there's a lot of pissed off men whose penises have been smaller than they expected recently. And there's one. He's real.

Malcolm Collins: He's real. I love a guy goes to a girl, you know, he pulls down his pants and she's like, I've been with bigger and he goes, it's the penis thief.

It

Simone Collins: was stolen. It was the French. Yeah. It's not, it's not, it no longer, is it cold or it's a [00:25:00] grower? No, I'm a victim of theft. Do not worry. I will be recovering my penis by going to church and praying a lot recently. Yeah. I love that. It's the best solution. Anyway,

according to the official version, he is the first counselor and the head of the public relations department of the French embassy in the Central African Republic. In fact, Alexander is an undercover French intelligence agent. G G S E working on a secret program codenamed repopulation. The disappearance of penises in Haiti in 2016.

Mystically coincides with the beginning of his work in the country. PK flew to Bangui in 2022 and began making preparations, studying local men to identify the most suitable candidates for this procedure. I'm just like picturing him at urinals or something

Malcolm Collins: like

Malcolm Collins: This is real footage. Real footage. Recreation. Recreation. Okay, in [00:26:00] action.

Speaker 18: Bonefender

Simone Collins: Oh my God. In the summer of 2024, the secret operation was finally approved by French President Emmanuel Macron.

Macron, known for his special fondness for African men,

Oh my god!

Simone Collins: was the main lobbyist for the repopulation project in the French government. Childless Macron. who led lost hope of having a whole family of his own, took a desperate step to save this aging nation, which have lost its vitality from extinction.

The stolen genitals from the Central Africans. Hold on, hold on, before we go

Malcolm Collins: further. Yeah. Could I just say how much, I love all of this. That, that Macron apparently also like, it's not Macron is childless. No, this is

Simone Collins: personal. This is, his [00:27:00] penis is too small. What?

Malcolm Collins: And that is why, you know, it's like, I wanted to know, is there some scandal around Macron and black men?

Like, is this a, a thing that he said sometime? You can check right now while I'm talking. Just ask for perplexity. Is there any scandal around Macron and black men? Perplexity is

Simone Collins: already mad at me for asking about penis size. So what can I do now? You know, okay. There's some Perplexity

Malcolm Collins: got mad at me for asking of instances in which insurance companies now we're approving more claims than they had before the assassination.

Oh, really? Oh

Simone Collins: my goodness. Oh yeah, it got

Malcolm Collins: like mad. I, it was like, this isn't happening. I'm like, I'm sorry. I've read several reports of like major policy changes and they're like, Oh no, my algorithms won't let me find those sources. Oh,

Simone Collins: poor perplexity. All right, let's see. There's no specific scandal involving Emmanuel Macron in Africa.

This guy's just

Malcolm Collins: like, sure, like, you in particular, Macron, I've seen you looking at Black men. Like, I, I, [00:28:00] I love, I love that. I also love the name of the project, codenamed Repopulation. Well, I am so scared that we get tagged for a conspiracy theory like this. I hope that we're like based and out there. I know.

Simone Collins: Well, thank goodness that we're known for beating our children instead of stealing penises. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Right. No, and I hope I mean, we've got to look out for stuff. There's a, there's always the case that you slip up and you say the wrong word or you use the wrong sign. And the next moment, you know, James Lindsay has decided you're working with the, the what's the, what's the group?

He's always afraid of the they were mostly dead group from Northern Egypt called the No Gnostics Gnostics. Gnostics. . I love a lot of James Lindsay's work. I really, really do. I think he's discovered some really great stuff, but he's a bit like me. If I didn't have Simone reigning me in, where I'll see something like.

people walking around in red hats that say witch in latin on them and i'm like Okay, like they seem like they're on our side, but there's probably something there and simone's like no [00:29:00] malcolm. That's crazy talk Well, james lindsey doesn't have that right? So i've seen so many instances where i'm like Oh, I could have accidentally done that and and and set lindsey off on me in a He's clearly gnostic cabal trying to take over society So, I don't know I I could end up with a conspiracy built around me

Simone Collins: good lord Well, you know you've made it win Let's see what has happened to the stolen penises.

The stolen genitals of Central Africans were taken by truck to a neighboring African country, then transported to Paris on board of a military aircraft. A military aircraft full of penises! You gotta protect them, Malcolm! Where they were again loaded on trucks and hidden in one of the secret bunkers of Versailles.

Oh, there's a

Malcolm Collins: secret bunker of Versailles. We are going full on Da Vinci code that there is a guy who opens the door to the secret bunker of Versailles and just

Simone Collins: penis. And you know where they would have gone if they were flown to the United States, right? [00:30:00] A secret bunker beneath the Washington Monument?

I mean Oh

Malcolm Collins: yes! Beneath the what? Yes! I've got to do a flip here from a national treasure.

Simone Collins: It's kind of a shame.

Speaker 6: Ah, dick! Shake! Everywhere I turn, it's

Speaker 5: What are

Simone Collins: On the record, which is at the disposal of edition, thanks to a local resident, the fact of the mysterious trucks crossing the palace territory is documented. Ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here first, the penises were seen crossing into

Malcolm Collins: their sign!

They were seen? Crossing, crossing the palace territory. Oh my gosh, crossing the palace territory. Okay, so first I love that they like, don't even see them with the penises and then they're like, I saw some mysterious trucks. It was reported to me by a local residence. Must have been full of penises.

I was, you know.

What else, what else? I see a [00:31:00] truck I don't recognize. I'm sure that

Simone Collins: the truck just had a giant sign on it that said penises. Get out the way, you know,

Malcolm Collins: this video is going to be, I, I have no idea whether it's going to be I don't, I think it'll get through to be honest. I, I mean, we're not, it's, they're actually pretty good about stuff like this.

Like if you're not actually sitting there talking about like, Oh, An orgy or something. They're not going to and this is fairly news based.

Simone Collins: Yeah, we're talking about important. So, no

Malcolm Collins: collapse related stuff here. I'm going to be reading from Scott Alexander, who did a good piece on the history of penis stealing.

So nobody knows when penis stealing, which is began their malign activities. But Bolognese texts, including the Zaziga, Incantations against witchcraft induced impotence. Ancient Chinese sources describe Suozang, the penis retracting into the body, because of yin yang imbalances. But the first crystal clear reference was Amalia's Malefactorum, the 15th century European witch hunter's [00:32:00] manual.

It included several chapters on how witches cast curses that apparently, though not actually, remove men's penises. Now this is interesting for a few reasons. One, you go back to like the earliest human writings, like Babylon. Already they're afraid of penis stealing witchcraft. Like this appears to be deeply ingrained in the human condition.

But two, you'll hear later in this that in Africa, like if one of the people who's like, my penis was stolen, they'll like go to a doctor and the doctor will look and be like, It's right there and then they'll look down again. They'll be like, oh it reappeared and it appeared that it probably worked the same way in europe even in the 15th century because even the Rumors of the witches who would steal people's penises they're like, yeah But they didn't actually remove them and you know, the the vatican has always been quite good About reigning in sorry.

A lot of people may not know this the vatican was very Good at reigning in witch hunters, witch trials, Inquisition related. Yeah, it was the

Simone Collins: Protestants that kind of screwed this

Malcolm Collins: up. Yeah, no, the Protestants went crazy with this stuff. The Vatican had a [00:33:00] few instances where, where people were killed, but they didn't go like full mass killings like the Protestants did.

I say this as a Protestant who is on record with a lot of You may even go so far as to say anti Catholic beliefs and I had to give the Catholics props on this one They did their they're they're pretty good at reigning in the crazies Which meant that like when they were writing this down in the malefictorium, they're like, but they don't really disappear anyway continue.

Oh, i'll continue. Okay So the first recorded incident of penis theft in africa I could find took place in sudan in the 1960s So very recently did this enter africa as a phenomenon? Perhaps even coming out of Europe. But in the mid to late 70s in Nigeria, there were waves of well documented cases. One of these happened in the northern city of Kudana, where a psychiatrist named Dr.

Sende Ichiwu was working in his office when a policeman arrived, escorting two men. One of them said he needed a medical assessment. He had accused the other man of making his penis disappear. [00:34:00] As with a previously discussed incident, this had caused a disturbance in the street. During Ichiru's examination, he later recounted the victim stared straight ahead while the doctor examined his penis and pronounced it normal.

Quote unquote exclaiming, Ichiru wrote in the Transcultural Psychiatric Review, the patient looked down at his groin for the first time, suggesting that his genitals had just reappeared.

Speaker 4: He bought a green sweater, okay? So you can't just make that disappear, okay? That's like stealing. It's the equivalent of stealing. So where is it? I spent like 48, so you're not being clever at this point, alright? You're being mean. You're being stupid. Where is it? Look at your effing body right now, Peter.

What the eff, how the hell? I was holding things! Did you feel anything?

Malcolm Collins: according to Ichiru, this was part of an endemic of magical penis theft that swept through Nigeria between 1975 and 1977. Quote, this could be seen in the streets of Lagos holding the flag. onto their genital, either openly or discreetly, with their hands in their pockets. [00:35:00] Women were also seen holding onto their breasts directly or discreetly by crossing their hands across their chest.

Vigilance and anticipatory aggression were thought to be good prophylactics. This then led to further breakdown of law and order, end quote. During an incident, the victim would yell, Thief! My genitals are gone! Immediately, the culprit would be identified, apprehended by the crowd, and often killed. No!

Simone Collins: What a way to die!

What a way to die! He stole my penis!

Oh,

that is one of the worst ways to die. Oh, boy.

Malcolm Collins: You know when people are like, well, is there really proof, like, in a piece that we're going to do tomorrow, Scott Alexander is like well, there isn't really proof that some cultures are better than other cultures. And so when we're talking about these culturally induced medical conditions, because in the [00:36:00] piece, we're going to be arguing that.

gender dimorphism is a culturally induced medical condition. And he admits it probably gender

Simone Collins: dysmorphia, about 80 percent

Malcolm Collins: like transness is probably similar to penis stealing in Africa. But he's like, but there isn't such thing as being culturally neutral. So like, you shouldn't look at these negatively, right?

Like, it doesn't mean it's not real. Right. In the same way that anorexia we're going to argue is probably also one of these and. Simone had that. She had our version of penis deals and things and then ends up killing about 10 percent of the people who have it, you know, so like it's clear that they really feel it and believe it.

Right? But none of us are

Simone Collins: above this, but we still get to, I laugh at myself for starving myself. That's funny.

Malcolm Collins: He then goes on to argue that there is no Like, there's no neutral culture. There's no cultures better than any other cultures. So we shouldn't be like, oh, transness isn't like real or something that should be promoted just because it's a cultural isolated phenomenon or contagion phenomenon.

And by the way, if you're like, no, it's not culturally isolated. Every instance where people point to quote unquote trans [00:37:00] people from a different culture, the way it's presented is super, super different than the way it's presented in the United States. What are you talking about? Two spirit or anything like that?

We'll get to that tomorrow. Anyway or whenever I end up posting it. But anyway, the, the point here being I argue that there are cultures that are better than other cultures, and then a culture where people are killed on the street because somebody randomly freaked out and thought you stole their penis is a bad culture, and this should probably be stamped out of the phenomenon.

If something is leading to people dying, like, let's say a 50% Attempted suicide, right? Which we have in the trans community. That's just why I mentioned that. It might be better if the phenomenon was ended instead of or, or at least discouraged from spreading instead of exasperated. Because I don't like it when people die over something that's just a cultural quirk.

Like, A witch stole my penis. Anyway, to continue. But it's been making up for lost time. Gurez, this is the guy who's studying it, who we'll go into a bit was able to find and [00:38:00] interview one previous penis theft victim, plus a friend of another. Both described similar stories. Someone had bumped up against them under weird circumstances.

They immediately noticed that their penis was much smaller than usual. They called out the culprit, and apparently, because the witch involved didn't want to get into trouble, their penis was restored. So even if your penis was restored, even if someone's like, wait, wait, wait, before we kill this person, can we look to see if, like, your penis was taken?

And you'd be like, it got better.

Speaker 5: What makes you think she's a witch?

Speaker 3: Well, she turned me into a newt! Got better.

Malcolm Collins: . But, like, even, even the penis still being there isn't proof that they didn't steal it and then give it back to not be murdered by the mob. Whatever weird itch this topic had given Burris, this didn't satisfy him.

So he, he then wanted to go get the full story. So he goes to Nigeria. He couldn't find any instances of this. And the absolutely crazy thing he did is he since started as a white guy bumping into random people on the street, trying to get one of them to accuse him of penis theft. I was like, [00:39:00] People are beaten to death in the streets for this, you psycho!

Why are you trying to get someone to accuse you? And then it follows him as he goes to other countries, trying to find anywhere where this has happened recently. He goes to Hong Kong, he goes to Singapore, he goes to Malaysia. And in basically every case, they're like nobody believes this anymore.

Like, after they westernize, they no longer believe it.

Simone Collins: That's really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Malaysia holds a special place in the history as the spot where penis stealing witches first made contact with western science. The Malaysian word for the condition is koro. It means head of the turtle, based on an analogy of the penis retracting into the body the same way a turtle's head retracts into its shell.

And it is by that name that the condition gets listed in the DSM and the rest of medical literature. Neither I know Burist was able to find many ethnic Malays worrying about Koro. Most of the activity seems to come from Malaysian Chinese. So these are Chinese who moved to Malaysia, who's a subpopulation that's actually uniquely wealthy in Malaysia.

They're often called like the Jews of the region, it's interesting. Anyway, That's a totally different episode that we're going to do. [00:40:00] The Chinese definitely worry about it, attributing it to a wide variety of causes, including poisoning, yin yang and ballast, and yes, witches, but Bureis found nothing among any ethnicity.

Once again, all the doctors said it used to be common, but disappeared as the city industrialized and adopted western ways. He then goes to try to find this, like, remote region the Cape of York, to try to find penis healing, which is because there was an incident of it in 1984, where quote, Rumors spread of a fox ghost, sometimes disguised as an old woman, roaming the land, collecting penises in covered baskets she carried on a shoulder pole.

When two young men approached her and told her to uncover the baskets, they looked inside and saw that the baskets were full of, Dun dun dun! Penises! And Dawn instantly was fright. But if they died instantly, then who reported the story? Was there another guy and they like yelled penises? What if she was just a juggling dildo

Simone Collins: saleswoman who

Malcolm Collins: accidentally killed two men of fright?

Imagine [00:41:00] Dawn because you saw a basket of penises. But I also love that even in these remote regions of the world, like, witches are like old women, right? Yeah, but

Simone Collins: also, I'm starting to see this interesting correlation between high fertility and believing in penis theft. So, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just better to believe.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, I actually kind of like the idea of teaching them that like cultures we don't want them engaging with might try to steal their penises. Be like, hey, you gotta be really careful with this urban monoculture stuff. People with blue hair, steal penises. I

Simone Collins: mean, they do. Technically. So I'm okay with saying that.

Like, they

Malcolm Collins: actually, they actually do.

Simone Collins: They do steal penises. If there's any real penis theft It is within the urban monoculture led by gender warriors. So anyway,

Malcolm Collins: did someone try to steal your penis? Hold on. I've got to check. No, it's, it's, it's, it's fortunately still there. Okay.

We've got to ensure it, man. All right. [00:42:00] I didn't expect this episode to be this fun to do. I was like, this is a throwaway episode. I'm like, this is one of my favorite episodes ever done. We just don't talk about penises enough in modern day society. We need to do more on like weird subcultures if this one does well.

I really love weird subcultures. Yes. Okay. Panic about Koro would hit a village and last three to four days. When residents heard about the case in a neighboring village, The panic would subside, since it meant the ghost had moved on.

Simone Collins: The roving, penis stealing ghost.

Now I feel like this could be a holiday. It's like Krampus, but for adults. You

Malcolm Collins: know, but what I love is if you want it to die down in your village, you have to get another village panicking about it. It only subsided when the first village stopped panicking. That's true. You have to know that it's hitting somewhere else.

That's true. They're panicking now, so we don't have to deal with the, the, penis witch. The first

Simone Collins: has to be passed on. It reminds me of that My Little Pony episode. I can't remember which episode it was, but they're like, they basically sent a giant natural disaster to some other pony land. And like the episode just ended with that and [00:43:00] they're like, Oh, problem solved.

Oh, this is the

Malcolm Collins: episode where they have the little like self replicating things.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's it. Yeah, they basically sent What are those, like, they're called in sci fi replicators, just they sent replicators.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they might be like replicators in sci fi. I always thought the episode is closer to in Star Trek there's one where, Tribbles, the trouble was Tribbles.

Tribbles, yeah, they just sent

Simone Collins: Tribbles to some other town and they're like, guys, we don't have to worry about this anymore. And the

Malcolm Collins: one in Star Trek, I think they, they beam them onto a Klingon ship or something. That's okay. Who cares about

Simone Collins: Klingons? I mean, if there's one thing I'm racist against, it's Klingons.

Malcolm Collins: You're racist against Klingons? You know there's people who believe they're Klingons. They get like, surgery to look like Klingons.

Simone Collins: I know, and I'm okay with that. The Klingon

Malcolm Collins: population you have decided to discriminate against.

Simone Collins: The one hill I'm okay with. What have they ever done to you?

Malcolm Collins: Actually, they're pretty sweet.

Yeah, they're, they're pretty. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm okay with you sending churbles to Klingon houses.

Simone Collins: No, Klingons are cool. Ferengi are really annoying. Are these just [00:44:00] racial stereotypes to start with? Holy s**t. Are Ferengi Jews?

Malcolm Collins: No, I actually thought about doing an episode on which religious groups match which mythical species, you know, like elves, dwarves.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: then I started like doing it in my head. I was like, okay, who's going to be. Orcs who's going to be like dark dwarves who's going to be and I started to be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah,

Simone Collins: just so many no's so many no's this is not. Anyway back to penises

Malcolm Collins: The attack slowly made their way around the island The ghost struck at night when villagers were sleeping.

A chill would creep into the room and suddenly the victim would feel his penis shrinking inwards. He would grab it and run outside for help. A 28 year old office worker was at home one night when, quote, he heard a gong being beaten and terrifying noises being made by people who were panicking in a nearby neighborhood.

Well, thank goodness they had a penis alarm. We don't have any in our houses. He suddenly became anxious [00:45:00] and experienced the sensation that his penis was shrinking. He was seized with panic and shouted loudly for help. Several men in the neighborhood rushed in and tried to rescue him by forcefully pulling his penis and making loud sounds to chase away the evil ghosts that were thought to be affecting him.

What a

Simone Collins: bad night. You wake up, your penis is shrinking, you go outside, you ring the penis alarm, then the people come and yell at you while pulling your

Malcolm Collins: penis. No, hold on, this is, this is like cultural difference here. Even if I was certain, I woke up and I was certain that a ghost was trying to take my penis.

Huh. The last thing I would do is run out of the house screaming, my penis is shrinking, my penis is shrinking, dear god, my penis is shrinking. That would be the last thought in my mind. Run around. Beating a gong! Oh my god, my penis is freezing! And [00:46:00] then! And then this is how I know this is a different culture.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: If I saw another man running around beating a gong saying, dear God, my penis is shrinking. My last thought would be to run up and grab his penis along with another man and make loud noises to scare away a ghost, right?

Simone Collins: But we're the ones, we're the ones selling satanic rituals on Etsy. And, and being super gay.

Malcolm Collins: Like, I honestly, I honestly think, like, we're laughing at this. If you explained trans people to, like, a random person in Central Africa, they would probably think it sounds as crazy as witches stealing your penises. Like, wait, there's men who suddenly decide that they're women? And like, they, they go on, you give [00:47:00] them drugs to make them look more like women?

And then everyone's supposed to just accept this? And they, wait, they don't even have to go on drugs, and they go into women's restrooms? You, they, they play against girls in sports? What are you talking about? That sounds insane! A, a guy comes up to you, and says, I'm a woman, and everyone just, they don't look like a woman.

They don't talk like a woman and everyone just has to accept this like the case in Canada where the guy wore like the giant boobs and and and everyone was just like, yeah, you have to accept this and he turned out to be

Speaker 22: For months, the school board in Ontario, defended this creep.

Speaker 23: I went There to the School Board back in October, dressed exactly like, , Busty Lemieux,

They're all down with the, agenda, but only when it's in front of the kids. When it's in front Of their school board meeting, they actually fled the room and also [00:48:00] that director of education released a statement where he said that, , he, he might veto. A dress code recommendation

Malcolm Collins: because of course I think that they're probably like.

And in Central Africa, that's probably what he thinks. And I'm not saying, look, again, I actually believe that there are some real trans people. And when we look at things like the Tide studies and endocrine disruptors, there really might be a trans phenomenon. But I also think that the way that our culture is relating to this phenomenon is absolutely insane.

And a lot of people who, Pretty obviously don't have any, whatever would be like, real transness are getting caught up in this. But anyway so we laugh at them, they're probably laughing at us, they're like, Hey, other people have to take our penises.

Simone Collins: There's a lot of other stuff that's really ridiculous about us.

We literally can't make a sandwich that we have to doordash it, like that is how feckless they are.

I mean, I think

that's even more notable.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, carry on. I mean, explain anorexia to them. We're like, yeah, young girls [00:49:00] just sometimes stop eating. They, they, they what? Yeah, they think they're not beautiful enough.

Well, surely they realize when they become, like, frail and look like they're about to die. Surely then they realize that they, this isn't making them more beautiful. It's like, no, no, that almost never happens. They actually just die often. They'd be like, that's as stupid as penises.

Simone Collins: I mean,

Malcolm Collins: idiots.

Simone Collins: Because it is.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Neighbors and family members were enlisted in rescue operations. Oh, I love they got a whole rescue team here, right? Going to order, did you take the penises?

Simone Collins: Oh, I mean, it's, it's after the theft that you're most likely to find the penis again. I mean, after hours have passed, the penis could be anywhere, Malcolm.

It's the first, it's the first hours to count.

Malcolm Collins: Victims were beaten with sandals and slippers while the middle finger of their hand was squeezed so that the ghost could exit the body there. The endemic [00:50:00] engulfed the island with the expectation, with the exception of Lee and Maui minorities who seemed to be immune to such fears.

Researchers estimated that between 2, people were affected. But that, quote, no one died from genital retraction, end quote. However, close your ears, Simone, or take out your things. One baby, however, did die when his mother tried to feed him pepper juice and a girl was beaten to death during a two hour exorcism.

Quote, numerous men suffered injuries to their penises as a result of rescuing actions, end quote. You can,

Simone Collins: I really appreciate the trigger warning. I'm assuming children were hurt, so. No, no,

Malcolm Collins: no, it wasn't that. It was something else.

Simone Collins: Okay, good. Only, only good things ever happen to children and I need to fix the world. I was about to say, it was

Malcolm Collins: something totally else.

But anyway, a number of men did suffer serious injuries during rescue attempts. Well, and, and there were the people who, yeah, wow, okay. And then [00:51:00] iron pins were sometimes inserted into the nipples of women to prevent retraction, which caused infections.

Simone Collins: Well, we pierce nipples to stuff, you know, and we do it for non productive, non protective reasons.

We just do it for fun. And they're like, what do you mean? Like, you're not trying to protect your nipples. Yeah. Yeah. No, no.

Malcolm Collins: Imagine you're trying to explain this. Right. And you're like, yeah. So, they go to somebody, somebody from like Central Africa comes and they were like, yeah. So when I was a teenager I felt.

Uncomfortable with my body and they're like wait what you did this because you were a teenager and you Everyone feels uncomfortable with their body when they're a teenager. No, no, no, no, no, you don't understand when I was a teenager I was confused about my sexuality No. You did. You did what because of that?

And they're like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [00:52:00] You don't understand. You see when I was a teenager, I felt like a social outcast and I was looking for a group that would accept me I was uncomfortable with my body and I was confused about my sexuality. In the United States these are all signs that you have gender dysphoria.

Yeah. I'm like, no, I think that might be normal, normal teenage stuff. But the interesting thing here, and, and this is the point, is that you can't make this stuff go away just by saying the same as like, you know, anorexia. You can't go to someone who has anorexia. Like, this is a real thing that they'll likely die over and be like, hey, this is like a social phenomenon unique to your country.

Who will?

Simone Collins: That was fun. I love you. Love you

Malcolm Collins: The thing I was prepping the next episode on where I was going to record it today, but we just don't have enough time for me to do full prep on it was on Somebody who had had a number of long conversations with Luigi the you, you, and [00:53:00]

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: We're really interesting. So one of the conversations or complaints Luigi had, which reminded me so much of the moral situation that he found himself in was apparently.

When he was in Japan, he was complaining that everyone was an NPC and he described one instance where he saw somebody having a seizure. And so he ran to the police to try to help the person. But the police insisted on stopping and waiting at every stoplight, even when there were no cars. That's so Japanese.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But he's like, but a person is dying. It's okay to break the law if you're going to save lives. And I think that that's sort of a microcosm of what he was doing, and it would be really interesting to unpack more of his belief system around this, of in his mind, why did he think this was an okay thing to do when we live in a world of people that didn't think it was an okay people, a thing to do.

Even, even the, the writer of the article was like, [00:54:00] well, You know, anyway, interesting, definitely worth something going into. Another interesting thing, which is going to happen in another episode, because this episode was mostly meant as a prep episode of like intellectual candy, just like fun, goofy stuff for a much deeper episode that I actually think I've unlocked a big change in my perspective on something.

What? Okay. What? There is. Some so the idea of, you know, as we're going to end up talking about in today's video of a regional locked mental illness applies incredibly strictly and well to it. Gender dysphoria and more than that by looking at how it applies to autism and gender dysphoria and autism and anorexia, another region locked illness.

It does not appear to be a real illness, but an illness that is specifically due to cultural pressures. We can better [00:55:00] understand exactly what's causing in a way that is clearer for me than anything has ever been exactly what creating gender dysphoria because what I ended up doing is I took a manual from a anorexia clinic about why autism often leads to anorexia.

And if you just read it and you replace the word. Like eating was gender expression, or anorexia was gender dysphoria, all of a sudden every line makes perfect sense, but in a very offensive way. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay. Wow. Okay. I'm looking forward to that.

Malcolm Collins: You as an autistic person, I think are going to be able to shed a lot, who had severe anorexia are going to be able to shed a lot of light on this.

Simone Collins: Exciting.

Malcolm Collins: So I tried dressing up as Krampus for a Christmas tradition , but they are apparently far too clever for this. , at first tourists and NGOs. This is the middle child. Who's three. Why is Krampus wearing a mask? and at the end of the night, you'll hear [00:56:00] him go.

, I think that's a costume and you can see him.

When I come into the room while the older child believes it's Krampus the middle one, isn't buying it at all.

Speaker 17: no!

Speaker 14: I don't see it! We gotta close that door fast

Malcolm Collins: And the youngest one. Immediately the moment you see that you got.

And then simone has to try to redirect her. Like, oh, no.

You mean, it's scary.

Probably my favorite part is the oldest child's guests as to who it is. It was that it was Indi. Indie art youngest. Oh, under one year old child strapped to Simone's back, , because it made a wet sound.

Speaker 13: Toasty, why are you out of bed? Hey mommy, look! What? What? What's?

Oh my god, is that Krampus? Toasty? Toasty? Octavian, what is that?

Speaker 14: [00:57:00] It's a monster! Baby, it's a monster! You

Speaker 13: think it's a monster?

Speaker 14: Yeah.

Speaker 13: Where'd it go?

You think it's Andy? You

think it's a monster? You like, well why are you saying it's scary with a smile on your face? Wait, what's that sound?

What is it?

Speaker 15: Who?

Speaker 14: It's scary.

Speaker 13: Is it Krampus? Yeah.

Speaker 14: Oh.

Speaker 13: I

Speaker 14: think it's not Krampus.

Speaker 13: Krampus is not alive? Yeah.

Well, remember, if Krampus is real, you know what to do, right guys? You hide under your [00:58:00] covers. It's okay. It's okay. You just hide under your covers and you think good thoughts.

You just saw the monster?

Speaker 14: And I was so scared of it.

Speaker 13: And you were so scared of it?

Speaker 14: Yeah.

Speaker 13: Was it Krampus?

Speaker 14: No. And it's

Speaker 13: scary. That's Krampus

Speaker 14: outside of

Speaker 13: the dark?

Speaker 14: And Krampus has huge claws. It even

Speaker 13: has a

Speaker 14: mask on

Speaker 13: it. Yeah. Do you think he was like a mystery? Were you trying to solve him like a mystery monster?

And Octavian, you just, you just don't believe [00:59:00] Krampus is real, right? I saw something outside. I don't know what you mean.

Speaker 14: Did you not

Speaker 13: see something outside? You said it was Indy. Indy's upstairs. She's inside.

Speaker 14: Oh, we are. Mommy, mommy, mommy. You think it's Krampus?

Speaker 13: Yeah? Mommy! Uh, what was that? What was What was that? Titan, hide. Hide. Hide.

Speaker 14: I think it's Krampus, Mommy.

Speaker 13: You think it's Krampus?

Speaker 14: Yes, I hide under it.

Speaker 13: You're hiding under your banquets? Oh my gosh. Under

Speaker 14: my covers.

Speaker 13: You're hiding under your covers? Are you thinking about being a good boy? He can only find bad boys, right Toasty?

Speaker 15: Guys,

Speaker 13: [01:00:00] hide under your covers. Krampus can only get bad kids. He'll only get bad kids. He can only smell bad kids. He can only smell bad kids, okay? Hide under your blankets. I already did! You already did? I'm scared. Well, you better be scared because that was Krampus.

I think he might be gone, guys. I'm going to close the door, okay? Dad's asleep. He always goes to sleep early.

Speaker 14: Actually, Dad just dressed up in a monster costume.

Speaker 13: That's a really interesting mystery solving proposition, but I think it was Krampus. Octavian, I think it's safe to come down now. I hear Daddy. I think Krampus might have woken him up.

Speaker 16: Good job, Titan. You're okay now. You did great! High five! Good job, Titan. Oh no,

Speaker 14: did you guys hear that? Yeah, it was Krampus! I saw him!

Speaker 13: You did? [01:01:00]

Speaker 14: Yeah, do you saw Krampus?

Speaker 13: Guess what, guys? I was down here the whole time with the video camera so we can see if it actually happened. Oh

Speaker 17: no!

Speaker 14: I don't see it! We gotta close that door fast!

Lock it so Krampus doesn't

Speaker 17: come! We gotta always lock all the doors, right? This is why you don't leave doors unlocked, right? Because if you leave a door unlocked, Krampus may come. I think, was that door unlocked? That's how he got in.

Speaker 13: Oh my gosh, you guys. This is why we can never leave a door unlocked.

Speaker 14: Daddy, daddy, we just saw Krampus. You

Speaker 17: just saw Krampus? That can't be real.

Speaker 14: Yeah, we just saw Krampus. We just saw Krampus.

Speaker 13: Alright, well, I'll stop recording and we'll watch the video and see what actually came through. Okay, guys? Okay, guys. . I

Speaker 17: think

Speaker 14: it looks

Speaker 13: really creepy.

Speaker 25: My friend, come close, for I've a tale to tell. A rumor so strange, it just might [01:02:00] spell hell. They say Europe's strapped, no babies in sight. So the French come prowling through Africa at night. Keep your guard up tight, don't loosen your belt. Or you might lose treasures you frequently felt. They'll truck them away.

These natalists lie straight under a loo Where our secrets now lie

Spoke to a trader in Bungui last week He said nanotech is the new form of sneak A single light touch and your pride goes out Then never again will you feel So hold on to hope and hold on to more

Don't let white men come knocking your door They'll claim they're saving Europe's fate By [01:03:00] swiping our manhood at a shocking rate They say that beneath Mona Lisa's grin A secret vault holds what they smuggle in Family jewels from far away All labeled and stored by bureaucratic hands.

So heed my words, keep watch at night. Bolt up your trousers and tie them tight. In the shadow of truck lights on winding roads. Carrying crates of genital loads. Some say it's myth, a tall African tale. But panic and whispers refuse to go stale. Well, if you see a white man friend, you best run Or find

yourself parted with what can't be undone[01:04:00]

Guard your crown, hold fast your stance Don't let them slip you into that trance For Europe's needs, they claim to roam But we want our pride safe here at home

Yeah. Yeah.

Join us in today's episode as we delve into the remarkable rise of Christianity, examining factors like martyrdom, plagues, and moral dynamics. Building on previous discussions, this standalone exploration dives deep into how Christianity managed to outcompete other religious cultures. We discuss the impact of plagues on Christian growth, the role of martyrdom, and how early Christians' behavior during catastrophes set them apart from pagans. Gain insights into the societal and religious shifts that propelled Christianity to prominence.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be doing an episode where we. Continue exploring how did Christianity outcompete other religious cultures and grow as fast as it did. This is going to build on another podcast that we did on this subject, but it's totally okay to watch as a standalone.

The subjects that we're going to focus on most here are the topic of martyrs as a conversion mechanism.

Plagues, and did christianity actually have a more moral system than the system Against in the mind of the average person in the last time we went on this I mean, certainly when you look at the exposure of babies being a common thing and we mentioned that some like Roman philosophers complained about how and saw it as one of the evils of the Jewish people that they tried to get people to not drown their babies.

Cause they're like, you, you shouldn't expose or kill newborns. And they're like, [00:01:00] no, wait, wait, wait. That's such a Jewish, what, what a, what a Jewish and nefarious thing to complain about.

Speaker 11: I'll take care of this. Hey Clara, there's a Jew outside, trying to poison a well! Ah! Oh my God! Get away from that well, Hebrew! What? I'm putting in water purification tablets. Spanky tricked me!

Malcolm Collins: Which is one of the holdovers that came into Christianity, but let's start with martyrs. And I just want

Simone Collins: to be clear, this is Scott Alexander's book review on the Rides of Christianity by Rodney Stark, in case you want to look at it yourself.

Martyrs. Martyrdom not only occurred in public, often before a large audience, but it was often the culmination of a long period of preparation, during which those faced with martyrdom were the object of intense face to face adulation.

Consider the case of Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius was condemned to death as a Christian, but instead of being executed in Antioch, He was sent off to Rome in the custody of 10 Roman [00:02:00] soldiers, thus begun a long leisurely journey during which local Christians came out to meet him all along the route, which passed through many of the more important sites of early Christianity in Asia Minor.

on its way to the West. At each stop, Ignatius was allowed to preach and meet with those who gathered, none of whom was in any apparent danger, though their Christian identity was obvious. Moreover, his guards allowed Ignatius to write letters to many Christian congregations and cities bypassed along the way, such as Ephesias in Philadelphia.

As William Schnoedl remarked, quote,

Malcolm Collins: Hold on, hold on, before we go further with this. The thing insane is this, so you, I kill you, but you

Simone Collins: get to go on tour first. So don't worry.

Malcolm Collins: No, he's like a famous musician or something. Like, it's like, we're going to have you fed to the lions, but you know, on the way, like imagine, okay.

So this is basically what happened here. You know, the guy who killed the like in, in UNH the, the, you[00:03:00]

If the U. S. arrested him, but then had him do public speaking events in every major U. S. city, while also, like, the cities he didn't get to, he created, like, podcast recordings for, so he could do the rounds in the media as well. Like, are you insane? And the guards apparently were like, cool, is it? So they were like, yeah.

Sure. But also

Simone Collins: then he had the social proof of being flanked by 10 Roman guards, so he looked important.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. That he would have looked like a rapper, like walking into these cities. Well, and this actually, this, this

Simone Collins: shows up in some press coverage of Luigi Mangione. He looks super badass surrounded by all these, these policemen.

Malcolm Collins: It's really funny. Yeah. No, no. It shows like, it shows that Rome, and this is what's so great about this, right? So it shows that Rome from all these guards around him, saw him as a threat. Yeah. Yeah. But he had done nothing to attack Rome. He had done nothing to threaten Rome. He [00:04:00] just wanted to share his ideas.

Now if I knew that the state saw this guy as a threat for just his ideas and I can go to one of these speeches I'm gonna go I'd be like christian curious at this point. I'm like,

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: what are these ideas that are scaring Rome so much? Yeah, yeah

Simone Collins: Speaker on tour coming to my town soon. This is great before he gets fed to the lions, you know You don't want to miss this speech So then I can go watch the Lion

Malcolm Collins: King in Rome, you know, you know, I, I get, you get the whole thing here.

Like the level of, I think rockstar status that these individuals would have had in the Christian community. I was going to talk about this later, but like they, they knew that like the other people who had done this before people like, Kept their bones and like giant reliquaries or like their, their toe bone would be have like magical powers and people would pray to it.

And like all of this, like, you're going to be like, Oh s**t. Like, and in a world that's bad, I mean, you don't know, these people could be living with chronic pain. These people could be living with, you know, [00:05:00] that the world of Rome was pretty horrifying. Right. That you could get this kind of status is huge.

And he talked before this in a bit I cut out about how previous people acted like the martyrs were like these big masochists. Not true. They were not big masochists. You can see that there is other reasons to want to be a martyr. I probably even would have liked being a martyr in this environment. Like it's just so pro martyr.

Actually, as a negative result of this, early Christian culture grew up to be so pro martyr that there was a huge problem when the Roman Empire legalized Christianity. Like, apparently when this first happened, they were, they were almost, like, sort of broken for a second, where they kept trying to get themselves martyred by doing, like, escalating things, and they quit.

And it was out of this that the monastic movement formed where some of the people who previously would have gone to do like martyrdom, they just like went out into the desert or the [00:06:00] wilderness. And there were so many of these people who did this sort of self martyrdom of like walking out into the wilderness that they just like kept writing into each other in the wilderness.

And they're like, Oh s**t, like, I guess we're starting a thing here. Or like one of them would go out into the wilderness and be like, Oh. Me, philosopher, I'm going to go, you know, like, you know, live this incredibly hard life in the deserts of like Egypt or whatever. And then he's out there for a bit.

And then a couple months later, like more people come and they're like, Hey, we're big fans. We're going to do the same thing. And then you, you end up getting this like big community doing this and it's like, Well, I guess we'll build a monastery. And now, and this is how you end up with these monasteries on like the tops of mountains and everything like that, which you've seen from pictures.

If they kept trying to get further and further away from people, but the further way they get from people, the more popular they'd become. So the more people would come to try to follow them and do this.

Simone Collins: Oh, goodness gracious. Well, if we had some kind of system whereby we could get egotistical self importance.

[00:07:00] Attention horrors to just all go somewhere together.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, side note, by the way, which is also worth worth noting here is how did Constantine like first? Why did Constantine convert to Christianity? It may have been a genuine conversion, but there was an alternate reason for him to convert, which I think a lot of the modern or Christian audience.

doesn't seem aware of, which explains Christianity's rapid rise. Well, so Constantine had a major problem with the existing bureaucratic apparatus of Rome because it had become incredibly corrupt, specifically like the Praetorian guard who was supposed to guard the emperor, but instead kept like massacring the emperor.

They were so bad to the emperor that they would like in one instance, they killed the emperor. They put another guy in charge. There was no money to pay them the bribe that they demanded of him because the guy before him had done such a bad job as emperor that they had no money. And he's like, look, I got no money like through no fault of my own.

He took the head of the Praetorian guard there. He's like, there is no money. This is the vault. I have nothing to pay you. The bribe was that you demanded, like, I [00:08:00] didn't even like, And so they kill him, right? And then they try to sell the emperorship to the highest bidder.

What did I tell you, huh? The worst!

She's the worst in the world.

Malcolm Collins: Like, they were just the biggest douche canoes in history, but like, that is how bad the Deep State has gotten.

The Praetorian Guard is like the personification of Deep State. So, That's interesting. Normally

Simone Collins: the Praetorian Guard is mentioned in a positive context, like, this person's Praetorian Guard, blah, blah, blah. Not, not as in like

Malcolm Collins: No, the Praetorian Guard Are the worst ever

the worst! She's the worst person in the world. Huge skank. Terrible..

Simone Collins: Classic

Malcolm Collins: I would put the, the scene from Dahabadi's Unbiased Rome, which everyone should watch if they haven't watched it, about the killing of the Praetorian Guard, but unfortunately he puts music behind the things, which gets things copyright stricken which really frustrates me.

Speaker 10: The time had finally come, the time for a new age, the time for [00:09:00] revenge. And so, Constantine proclaimed that the Praetorian Guard would be

Speaker 11: abolished!

Malcolm Collins: But anyway Constantine, absolute goat and so, Constantine is like, well, how do I?

Fight this deep state network, right? I need some alternate network that has no real allegiance to the old deep state or Rome and might even have a degree of animosity to it, which is operating with a degree of hierarchy in pretty much every major Roman city. Oh, the Christians! Perfect counter deep state.

I can just replace all of the deep state networks with the Christian networks. And so he came in and he now of course we believe this was partially divinely inspired. I'm not saying it wasn't divinely inspired, but sometimes the thing can be both logical, like Christianity spread and divinely inspired or Constantine's use of [00:10:00] Christianity as a counter deep state force.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Why would, why would God not align the incentives in favor of that which must happen?

Malcolm Collins: And when you really think about it, if he was going to try to destroy and replace the Roman Deep State, what other force could he use to do that? There literally was no one else he could use. There was no other large cult.

When I say cult, I don't mean that in like a modern way where it's like derogatory. In Rome, cult was just meant to describe any large religious organization. There was none that existed in almost every city. All of the ones were fairly region locked or tied to regional deities. Christians were the only one that was really this big and this organized and this hierarchical.

Except of course for the mystery Colts, but the last thing you want to do, if you're looking for a counter, deep state is put in place a secret society.

But anyway, continue.

And this is as William Showbler Yeah, sorry,

Simone Collins: are you, are you moving the [00:11:00] document around? No. Okay. That's weird. Oh, I know what's going on. I fixed it. As William Schoedl remarked, it is no doubt as a conquering hero that Ignatius thinks of himself as he looks back on a part of his journey and says that the churches who received him dealt with him not as a transient traveler, noting that even churches that do not lie in my way, according to the flesh, went before me.

Me city by city, unquote, what Ignatius feared was not death in the arena, but that well meaning Christians might gain him a pardon. He expected. To be remembered through the ages and compares himself to martyrs gone before him, including Paul quote, in whose footsteps I wish to be found when I come to meet God, unquote.

Yeah. This man had a clear agenda. Can you imagine being like, please don't pardon

Malcolm Collins: me. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Please don't. You don't understand. This is my ticket straight to the highest rung of heaven. Like, yeah. And being remembered forever and living a life of value [00:12:00] and like It's the full set.

Speaker 5: The whole set

Malcolm Collins: It's not confusing why early Christianity was so martyr crazy.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, Scott Alexander continues. It soon was clear to all Christians that extraordinary fame and honor Attached to modern martyrdom. Nothing illustrates this better than the description of the martyrdom of polycarp contained in a letter sent by the church in Smyrna to the church in Philomelidium polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna who burned alive in about 156 after the execution his bones were retrieved by some of his followers and act witnessed by Roman officials who took no action against them.

The letter spoke. of, quote, his sacred flesh, unquote, and described his bones as, quote, being of more value than precious stones and more esteemed than gold, unquote. The letter writer reported that the Christians in Smyrna would gather at the burial place of Polycarp's bones every year to, quote, celebrate with great [00:13:00] gladness and joy the birthday of his martyrdom, unquote.

The letter concluded, quote, Quote, the blessed polycarp, to whom be glory, honor, majesty, and a throne eternal from generation to generation, amen, unquote. It also included the instruction, quote, on receiving this, send to the letter to the more distant brethren that they may glorify the Lord who makes the choice of his own servants, unquote.

In fact, today, we actually know the names of nearly all Christian martyrs because their contemporaries took pains that they should be remembered for all their great holiness.

Malcolm Collins: I'd point out here that this is not just a then thing. Every time there was a new opportunity for martyrdom, Christians were pretty big on it.

Like, the college I went to, St. Andrews, there was a spot on campus where one person had been burned alive by the Catholics.

So for some context here, Hamilton returned to St. Andrew's in early 15, 28 to meet with the Archbishop. And while there he was arrested, tried and burned at the stake outside St. Salvador's chapel. [00:14:00] He was only 24. It has said that he burned for six hours and that he died so briefly that the Archbishop started to discourage public executions because quote, the reek of Mr.

Patrick Hamilton has infected as many as it blew upon in quote.

So, uh, as you can see,

At least the Catholics had the common sense to stop it after they realized how effective the martyrs were at converting people and breeding sympathy for their causes.

In this one instance.

Oh, yeah. Even in our house, we have at least three or four copies of the book of martyrs in our house. The people who don't know the book of martyrs, these are people who fought against

Malcolm Collins: . But then Catholics have their own martyrs that were killed by Protestants.

And they I guess didn't. I don't know if there's like a central collection of them, like the book of martyrs in the same way, but the, the, whatever, there was a chance to martyr themselves. Christians are really big on this. And I think it's a much more central theme to the real Christian tradition than [00:15:00] many people realize.

And I think one of the weakening facets of Christianity today is there just haven't been many opportunities to be a good martyr in a while.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, we may be entering a new age. Yeah. Right. Especially Luigi Mangione having, being at risk of a death sentence is now sort of entering a new martyr status.

People are literally using AI to make art of him in the style of a Catholic saint. Oh, really? Yeah, look at Drudge Report's front page. It's right there. So, Scott Alexander continues. I don't know. I'm not putting too much effort into writing up this section because it doesn't feel like much of a mystery as some of the others.

Maybe all of this was weird in 1996, but since then I've seen plenty of suicide bombers willing to die for their faith. I accept that the Christian martyrs were more impressive. A slow death in the Coliseum takes more grit than the quick detonation of an explosive fest. And dying for peace is more impressive than dying in war.

But it hardly seems like as much of a leap. However bad you [00:16:00] imagine daily life in ancient Rome, it was worse. Historians estimate that ancient Rome had a population density of 300 people per acre. That's almost 10 times denser than modern New York city. 2000 years. 10 times denser than modern New York.

2000 years before anyone invented the skyscraper too, because we also forget how vertical New York city goes. How did they do it? By cramping people together in unbearable filth and misery. Another source says 200 people per acre. Oh, so from a footnote, another source says 200 people per acre, which is only six times denser.

These numbers are for New York City as a whole. If we limit ourselves to Manhattan, Rome was only two to three times as dense. Do you have any idea how insane that is? What's worse is that people, they did have multi story buildings, but of course these buildings didn't have plumbing and they burned down all the time, killing everyone inside basically.

Or fell over all

Malcolm Collins: the time. We'll be getting into that. But, [00:17:00] but, but you got to imagine you didn't have plumbing. Okay. That meant that the poo that was coming out of these buildings was just going onto the streets every single day.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, they talk about I mean, this, this existed sort of all over the place, even in medieval cities.

That's why when we went on that tour in Edinburgh in the news, they talked about how they would yell guard, you knew, like, all the time, because that was what you said when you were about to like, throw your poop,

Malcolm Collins: the, the, the density to be you. Three exits. That meant that basically when people today are like, I can't have kids because like, I don't have a house for them.

It's like, well, clearly, even though they were like low fertility, they weren't that low fertility in Rome, clearly. Alexander pointed

Simone Collins: out that we did this in the first episode of this. Scott Alexander points out that there were many, many, many forms of contraception and abortion used in ancient Rome.

Plus people were wise enough to know which hole to. Have sex with if they didn't want to create a [00:18:00] pregnancy. I love

Malcolm Collins: this thing by Octavia, who was one of Octavian's like, daughters or something. Where somebody was like Well, her sister. His

Simone Collins: sister was Octavia. Yep.

Malcolm Collins: There were multiple Octavias. I forget which one this was.

Where she was like you, you, do you remember the quote? It was something like, they're like, well, be careful. And she's like, oh,

Simone Collins: yeah. Like I, I know like when, when my ship is holding cargo, like only when my ship is holding cargo.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Only when my ship is holding cargo. Yeah. Do I have fun?

Yeah.

Which is great.

Basically only when she's pregnant.

Cause then you know, safe. No problem.

Okay. But what ancient Romans got up to? Pretty debauched. But anyway, continue.

Simone Collins: Most people lived in tiny cubicles in multi story tenements. Quote, there was only one private house for every 26 blocks of apartments. Unquote. Within these tenements, the crowding was extreme.

The tenants rarely had more than one room in which, quote, entire families were herded together. [00:19:00] Unquote. Thus, as Stoneberg tells us, privacy was a hard thing to find. Not only were people terribly crowded within these buildings, the streets were so narrow that if people leaned out their windows, they could chat with someone living across the street without having to raise their voices.

To make matters worse, Greco Roman tenements lacked both furnaces and fireplaces. Cooking was done over wood or charcoal braziers, which were also the only source of heat. Since tenements lack chimneys, the rooms were always smoky in winter. Because windows could be closed only by hanging clothes or skins blown by rain, the tenements were sufficiently drafty to prevent frequent asphyxiation, but the drafts increased the danger of rapidly spreading fires, and dread of fire was an obsession among the rich and poor alike.

Malcolm Collins: And there were lots of big fires in ancient Rome.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, not fun. Pracker in 1967 doubted that people could actually spend much time in quarters so scramped and squalid. Thus he [00:20:00] concluded that the typical residents of a Greco Roman city spent their lives mainly in public spaces, And the average domicile must have served only as a place to sleep and store possessions, which totally makes sense.

Basically, it's the equivalent of a sleeping bag. Alexander continues. These tenements had no plumbing. Waste was eliminated by pouring it onto the street, often to the detriment of people walking underneath. Water was brought home from public wells. If you were out, you either walked back to the well or made do.

Total public baths capacity of Rome was about 30, 000. The total population of Rome was about a million. In practice, the upper classes used the public baths and the average citizen had never bathed in their life. Soap had been invented a century or two earlier, but was limited to a small pool of early adopters.

The city's buzzed with flies. Early adopters

Malcolm Collins: of soap. I love this. Early adopters. Have you seen the new tech? Soap! Soap! It's like, oh my god, you're always into the new fad, like. Yeah, it's great.

Simone Collins: [00:21:00] It would be 1800 years before anyone invented germ theory. Tenements were six stories high and frequently collapsed, killing everyone inside.

Fires consumed the city on a regular basis, giving rise to colorful legends like Nero fiddling when Rome burnt. Police were limited, and it was understood that you would be robbed immediately if you set foot outside at nighttime. How did people survive? Mostly they didn't. Cities were destroyed regularly, multiple times within a single human lifetime, then rebuilt and replenished with the rural population.

Stark focuses on Antioch, a Syrian city, which was a center of early Christianity. During 600 years of intermittent Roman rule, he finds It was conquered 11 times and burned to the ground four times and devastated by riots six times. There were eight earthquakes large enough that nearly everything was destroyed, and three plagues large enough to kill at least a quarter of the population, and five really serious famines for an average of one catastrophe every 15 years.

The Romans rebuilt the city [00:22:00] each time because it was a strategically important place.

Malcolm Collins: Now, start to wonder how horrifying this is, right? Given the number of people in these cities, the number of bodies we're talking about here in these ultra dense cities you know, a quarter of a population like that is, is dying.

Those are people just never found left rotting as buildings are built on top of other buildings. You know, this is how cities back then got built on top and built on top and built on top of the city It really reminds me one of the things I noticed about when we were in morocco, which is so interesting So you can see these older style city designs is you could climb to a high building and look down at the Structure of the way that the houses and the various properties intertwined with each other because in morocco Super super old goes back really long ways And you could see some that looked like they may have actually been forgotten.

Like maybe nobody owned them anymore. That they were, like, encapsulated by other buildings. And that the ownership structure may not know or have a way to track who [00:23:00] this building belonged to anymore, and it just got sort of built over and around, because who knows, the family died there in a plague in Roman times, or something like that.

Which is absolutely wild how horrifying these conditions were, but also how you know, after earthquake happens, okay, everyone's just going back. Yeah,

Simone Collins: start building a front. Oh, gosh.

Malcolm Collins: And every 15 years, every 15 years, what was happening 15 years ago, Simone? Was that when, like, Lady Ghostbusters was coming out?

Was, like, their version of Lady Ghostbusters, everyone dies?

Simone Collins: Yeah. This

Malcolm Collins: thing burns to the ground and everyone dies and we resettle it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, to Scott Alexander's point, yeah, it is way worse than you could even imagine. Death really wasn't that bad apparently, it just, just, end it. End it. Besides, Christians can't commit suicide, so this was one of the easiest ways to actually end it if you wanted to.

All right, I continue [00:24:00] reading Stark focuses on one of these disasters plague the Roman Empire suffered two major plagues during this era the Antonine plague of 165 AD and the Cyprian plague of 251 AD. He theorizes that Christians made it through these plagues much better than pagans gaining an additional population boost.

It's time for some game theory. When a plague comes, you can either defect, flee, isolate, or hide or cooperate enthusiastically try to help or nurse other victims. An individual does better by defecting, but a community does better if all its members cooperate. Stark thinks the pagans defected and the Christians cooperated

here is Thucydides description of a plague in pagan Athens, admittedly 500 years before the time we're studying. People quickly got an instinctive proto knowledge of how contagion worked, after which, quote, People died with no one to look after them. Indeed, there were many houses in which all the inhabitants perished through lack of any attention.

The [00:25:00] bodies of the dying were heaped one on top of the other, and half dead creatures could be seen staggering about in the streets of Athens. or flocking around the fountains in the desire for water. The temples in which they took up their quarters were full of dead bodies of people who had died inside them, for the catastrophe was so overwhelming that men, not knowing what would happen next to them, became indifferent to every rule of religion or law.

Compare the Christian writer description of a plague afflicting his own community.

Most of our brother Christians showed unbounded love and loyalty, never sparing themselves and thinking only of one another.

Heedless of danger, they took charge of the sick, attending to their every need and ministering to them in Christ. And with them departed this life serenely happy, for they were infected by others with the disease, drawing on themselves the sickness of their neighbors and cheerfully accepting their pains.

Many in nursing and curing others transferred their death to themselves and died in their stead. The best of our [00:26:00] brothers lost lives in this manner. A number of Presbyterians, deacons and laymen winning high commendation so that death in this form, the result of great piety and strong faith, seems in every way the equal of martyrdom. The heathen behaved in the very opposite way. At the first onset of disease, they pushed the sufferers away and fled to, from their dearest, throwing them in the roads before they were dead and treated unburied corpses of dirt, hoping thereby to avert the spread and contagion of the fatal disease.

Could

Malcolm Collins: you go further here? I, I would note that you see here the love of martyrdom. These people were really looking for, he said, in every way, the equal of martyrdom. They were looking for an opportunity to martyr themselves. And that was really big in early and in most of the vitalist periods of Christianity.

Good point. Is the desire for martyrdom.

Yeah,

that is what [00:27:00] drove this behavior. I don't care if I die, if I die doing the right thing. And I think that that's something that we need to rekindle was in the new iterations of Christianity. I mean, if you look at Technopuritanism, which takes the martyrdom of man as one of its founding texts, you know, we've focused a lot on this concept of martyrdom.

Live your life as a sacrifice for future generations. That is what these Christians were doing again and again and again. And so many Christians today do not understand your life is a sacrifice. When you live your life as a martyr, For the future, you live a life like these early Christians. When you live a life for yourself or moderated or like, Oh, I want to be part of a community and blah, blah, blah.

It's like, that's not what Christianity was originally or in its periods of great fertility. And when I say fertility, I mean like, like, like intellectual fertility

about.

Simone Collins: Could Dionysius [00:28:00] be embellishing matters to make his friends look good and his enemies bad? Maybe, but And this is from the book that Scott Alexander is quoting, there was compelling evidence from pagan sources that this was characteristic Christian behavior. Thus, a century later, the emperor Julian launched a campaign to institute pagan charities in an effort to match the Christians.

Julian complained in a letter to the high priest of Galatia in 362 that the pagans needed . to equal the virtues of the Christians. For recent Christians growth was caused by their, quote, moral character, even if pretended, unquote, and by their, quote, benevolence towards strangers and care for the graves of the dead, unquote.

In a letter to another priest, Julian wrote, quote, I think that when the poor happened to be neglected and overlooked by the priests, the impious Galileans observed this and devoted themselves to benevolence. And then he wrote, quote, the impious Galileans support, not only their poor, but ours as well.

[00:29:00] Everyone can see that our people lack and lack aid from us. Unquote.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Hold on. I want to take it. This is a Roman emperor who didn't like Christians. Like they're only pretending to be nice. Yeah. But like, They keep helping our poor. They keep helping, like, protect the graves of our dead. They keep doing all of this moral s**t.

Like, why aren't our own people doing this? Like, why are they the ones out there doing all the nice stuff? And there is a Parallel that he draws later in this and in the video before, which is early Christians and Mormons today. And if you don't understand how you can both think that somebody is in a way more morally strict, but also in a way, like, you're disgusted by them and they do all sorts of weird practices Where people are like, oh yeah, well, I mean, I know Morons are like, unusually nice, and like, may exhibit unusual amounts of charity, but they're still a disgusting cult.

Like, that's the way that people saw the early Christians. But you, I think, can [00:30:00] see on the wall here, already, who's gonna win in the long term. The ones that people are complaining about. Hey we need to like up government donations to this because these Mormons keep giving more money than our government is giving, or our local churches are giving.

They keep helping the poor more than even we're helping our own poor. I love that they point that out. The Christians are helping the pagan poor more than the pagan authorities are, and they're helping their own poor. Why would you not convert? Yeah, they didn't win. And I think what people miss here is they think that Christians won the moral battle by a margin or by an argument, not by a preponderance, but they won it by a preponderance.

Like you had to be kind of crazy or like invested in some weird status game to not be like, Oh, these are the good guys. Anyway, continue.

Simone Collins: Alright. Did this matter? [00:31:00] It might have. Modern medical experts believe conscientious nursing without any medications could cut the mortality rate by two thirds or even more.

If this sounds implausible, keep in mind that nursing here includes things like bringing water from the public well to bedridden people who are too weak to get out of bed and get it themselves. Makes a lot of sense. Stark believes that plagues helped Christians in multiple ways. One, the obvious way, 30 percent of pagans died during the plague, but only 10 percent of Christians, making Christians proportionally more of the population.

Two, altering the social graph. Remember, Stark believes that you convert to Christianity after your Christian friends outnumber your pagan friends. If all your pagan friends die, and none of your Christian friends do, this suddenly gets much easier. Three. Moral testimony. Pagans saw their priests and institutions fail the moral test of helping others while Christians succeeded.

Four, even more direct moral testimony. Many Christians nursed and helped their [00:32:00] pagan neighbors. If you owed your life to the Christians and all your pagan friends who could judge you were dead, it would be hard not to convert. Five, supernatural testimony. If you didn't understand game theoretic logic above, then dramatically higher Christian survival rates might seem like God's favor.

Stark additionally speculates that since Christians didn't flee the disease, they got it much earlier, therefore getting immunity much earlier and allowing them to walk through hospital corridors full of plague victims with apparent miraculous invincibility. Six, search for meaning. In some cities, 50 percent of the population died.

The survivors must have been shell shocked and looking for some sort of meaning behind it all. Paganism had nothing for them. Sorry, we don't do that kind of thing. Would you like to hear another story about Zeus raping women and turning her into an animal? Christians. Who had a wise words about how God tests the faithful and sometimes brings people to heaven before their time must have been a [00:33:00] vastly superior alternative.

No kidding.

Malcolm Collins: Right? Like you, you hear these two explanations and you're like, well, these guys seem to buy it. When I point this out in the last video on the subject that people don't realize how much Christianity was the first real religion of this region in the way that we think of a religion.

Simone Collins: Right?

Malcolm Collins: It just was, people can be like, what about Judaism?

And I go, well, look at Look at the the temple period Judaism scripts, which you can get from things like, like what sort of ceremonies were going on there while they were ripping doves apart, ripping their heads off while they were alive, then ripping them apart, spilling the blood on the altar, letting it like blow as they were talking.

It would have looked like sugar.

Nam S to

Malcolm Collins: I'm like, they were, they were transferring. their sins to [00:34:00] goats and then other is sacrificing them in front of a crowd and then another goat they'd send in the wilderness and it's like all of this stuff did it seemed very pagan

And I think some Jews take a lot of offense when I argue that the religion that they're practicing now is not fundamentally the same religion that was practice. You know, pre second temple or. You know, when the temple was standing as Judaism. And I really do not mean that insulting. It's only insulting because it goes against a lot of Jewish theology today. , because that religion was quite, I think, by modern standards, barbaric, and I've realized that a lot of Jews have this, , sort of like mental filter. On the things that happened during that period.

, and not just the, you know, rampant animal sacrifice, the worship of ball in the central temple,

et cetera, that was removed during the Josiah reforms. , but also things like the caste system. I remember [00:35:00] once I was at a party and \ . I made some joke about like how barbaric caste systems are. And I realized that one of the people, there was a friend of mine who is a very jingoistic Jew. I don't know if that's a. Well, what do you call a Jew who?

Super pro Jewish anyway. , he, , I turned him immediately because I really, in my mind, I had just made a major for pot. I'm like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And he was very confused

And I was like, well, I mean, you do come from a culture that has a strict caste system, or at least traditionally had a strict caste system.

And it had never occurred to him that Judaism used to have a really strict caste system or that he came from a culture based on a caste system that the Cohain the Levis, the Mazza rim, the.

The, the people was convert backgrounds that these people would have been treated differently would have had different ways of related to jobs would have had different ways of relating to society.

All ruled over by a hereditary king, the type of king that would have had 700 wives and 300 concubines in some [00:36:00] instances.

You know, as much as I give Catholics s**t about things. It least when they were building the management system for their religion, even in the earliest days, there was not even talk about making it hereditary. , and yeah, their system picks some real stinkers over to the time. But they never, it's never like, oh yeah. The Christianity at its very inception was like, well, obviously it's going to be based on a voting system.

And then everyone is born equal.

That's wild that we don't even talk about, like how crazy that is.

And this is not a bad thing. If you look at our video on slavery, we point out that the Jewish system was a league above. Eh, any of the pagan systems in terms of its morality in terms of its level of civilization, in terms of all of that. But, , it was not what we would think of as a modern religion, whether you go to the caste system or the animal sacrifices or the sin transference or the blood rituals, , we would not think of it as being very much like a modern religion.

[00:37:00] like christianity really kind of invented something new and judaism was A huge part of the way there, like the fact that the pagans would always complain about the nefarious jews trying to stop them from drowning their babies.

Like, they saw this as like a nefarious and evil thing, or the nefarious jews who had rules where you could lose your slave if you hurt them? What? What, what, what insanity now, while Christianity built on a lot of these ideas and Judaism did later as well, it's important to contrast, which I think isn't fairly done today, early Christians with Jews of their time period, not modern Jews, which are a much evolved religion from that time period.

But I think that when you do that, you can understand that Christianity was really the start of something totally new in human history.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But continue because he goes into this as well and you might have some thoughts on this. [00:38:00]

Simone Collins: New section. I think this is a very interesting way for it to end, right?

But is Christianity just better? Paganism was framed as a business relationship with the gods. You perform the rites and sacrifices, they give you supernatural aid. You didn't have to like them any more than you liked your supply chain for any other commodity. They certainly didn't like you. At its absolute most touchy feely, paganism might posit a special relationship between a god and a city like Athena and Athens.

But even this is maxed out at the sort of relationship between a shopkeeper and a favorite recurring customer who we always remember to greet by name. Judaism did better. God has a sort of love hate relationship with his people, Israel. But At least there are clearly strong

Malcolm Collins: emotions involved. Now hold on, before you go further, I want to point out here that the person writing this is Jewish in background.

Simone Collins: Continue. Still, Stark thinks it was Christianity that really pioneered the [00:39:00] idea that God loves individuals. From that, everything else flows. You should love your fellow man and nurse him during plague. You should love your children and not committed fandicide or abortion. You should love God back and be willing to die a martyr for him.

For God's love flows naturally. The promise of heaven, instead of a shadowy, semi naturally forming underworlds of the Greek and early Jews. The pagan priests were people who were skilled at the relevant rituals. Christian bishops slash priests slash deacons were people who loved God, especially much aside from all the individual ways that Christian love provided an advantage.

Stark thinks that paganism just couldn't compete.

Malcolm Collins: So here I'd like to, because I think that this is something people don't understand. If you. Imagine you're a pagan living during these times, right? And you see this one group acting more morally. They don't have, like, some sort of contract with their god.

Their god loves them, right? Like, you are just [00:40:00] not gonna be able to compete with this message. Even if you think it's weird, the moment somebody starts to engage with this, and if you watch the first episode where we're going over this, you hear about how cults work. Which at first you're like, because a lot of people will be like, Oh, I was just so compelled by like the message of the call, but that's not really what it is.

It starts with a lot of my friends are in it and blah, blah, blah. And I think it's pretty weird, but whatever. But then you begin to accept parts of the message and all of a sudden you're like, Oh my God, like this is great. Like this, so much of the world makes sense now that didn't make sense before.

And. You see these big C shifts here, and I think C shifts in religion and building civilization. So you look at something like paganism. Paganism says, do it because you will be rewarded for doing it. And Christianity says, do it because God loves you. And while this is a huge There still is a dramatic moral flaw to this jump, [00:41:00] which is you didn't consent to God loving you, you know, God loves you like a stalker.

He's like, I love you. Therefore, do what I say, right? Like, you didn't, you didn't say, oh, like, God, I, I, it's God's like, I love you. So do what I want. Whereas we. Reinterpret and I think more accurately interpret what's actually written in the Bible to argue that as techno puritanism, it says, do it without guilt or expectation of a reward because it is the right thing to do.

And in techno puritanism, you're doing it because of the impact it will have on future people and God, which you will never be personally rewarded for. Which is just like a strictly more moral way to act than the way the older interpretations of Christianity would act, or at least that's the way we see it.

I mean, obviously we're putting this together for our kids and stuff like that, but I see reacting, you know, and we, we have people ask us and we've had Christians ask us, they go, why are you working to create a better future that you are [00:42:00] never going to get experience and that you're not going to be rewarded for creating?

And it's like, well, because we have a religious duty to do so and they're like, well, I don't understand how you could have a religious duty to do something that doesn't personally benefit you in some way. And it's like, well, that's where the moral superiority comes from within this context. And you know, the, the old Greek philosophy here, which is a society grows.

Great. When old men plant trees whose shade they shall never sit in. And Christianity found a way to motivate this. Unfortunately it, it, it was better than the pagan traditions. Early Christianity, I should say. But it still lacked because it still was either promising to reward them in the afterlife, or it was promising to reward them with adulation within this world.

Whereas we have removed those two rewards while still maintaining the moral mandate.

The question is, can people really Motivate themselves with that. We'll see. I mean, I find it to be very motivating. But [00:43:00] I am a crazy person people are always like malcolm other people don't think like you stop assuming that other people think like you and I'm like, well, then i'll breed a generation that does just like the early christians did right?

Simone Collins: I mean, yeah works. It apparently worked very well for them. And I do appreciate this Posit of this is maybe just a stronger meme and I think that that's You A huge part of it, but I do think that these other factors like birth rate, like plague management, like martyrdom play a role too. And it's so cool seeing Scott Alexander's annotation of another author's breakdown of these dynamics because this is totally core in culture crafting.

This is. This is essential if you want to build a sustainable religion or see if your nascent religion that you want to hit your cart to is doing well. And by these metrics, EA is doing all right, I guess. Mormonism is doing great. I [00:44:00] guess the Amish are doing all right. Some Mennonites are doing all right.

So.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he points out here, which I find really compelling is that if you look at the way these early Christians look, they look the way a lot of people talk about Mormons today, which is to say a weird cult that's like weirdly nice for whatever reason. They're

Simone Collins: so nice, but they're so weird.

Malcolm Collins: No one takes them really seriously, but look at them go, you know?

And he pointed out in the first one that they are actually growing at a rate faster than early Christianity grew.

Simone Collins: So as long as they figured out how to get through This little birth rate problem they seem to be having right now.

Malcolm Collins: But it's still a less problem than their neighbors. I mean, look, when we are talking about the plagues of our generation, when future authors are writing about this, they're going to be talking about the plague of sexual degeneracy as it related to fertility rates.

And you can look at the techno puritan hypothesis here, which is to say that we need to completely disentangle The desire to have kids from the desire to achieve sexual release. [00:45:00] You need to say, these two things have nothing in common. I want to have kids because I want to have kids and kids are a moral good and kids make the future a better place.

And I will create kids for that reason, not because I denied myself pornography or I denied myself birth control. And then some other groups are taking the hypothesis, basically saying, no, we need to go back to older ways of doing this. I always mention in Rome. When their society was collapsing, there was two hypotheses.

There was one group of people that were like, let's experiment with new ways of doing things, ways of building a stronger culture. And there was another group that said, we need to go back to the old ways of doing things. And that was a mystery cult. I mean, in many ways, the trad Christians today represent the mystery cults of our time.

And we represent the early Christians saying, Hey, no, there's a new system. We need to upgrade our morality. We need to expect more for ourselves than people of the past. And they're like, no, what we need to do is go back to just the way the people in the past did things. And we're like, those systems won't work in this context.

Like more is expected of us, more [00:46:00] morality. Is expected of us. More civic virtue is expected of us. It being able to resist even a higher level of debauchery and degeneracy is expected of us. And if you can't do that, if you try to attempt that by saying just ignore this stuff just, you know, as we can see by the statistics, you're losing the next generation.

And, and, and don't tell me like, everyone's like, Oh, join our side. Like clearly we're doing well. And I'm like, yeah, the ones who stay in the faith are doing well. And they're like, well, why do you care about the ones who aren't? I'm like, because they're leaving it record numbers. That's like saying only the people who got shot died.

It's like, well, Yeah, duh. That's what we're afraid of for our kids. We're afraid of them falling to the urban monoculture and they just don't seem very resistant solutions. So I think we're at this great turning point in human civilization where we get this opportunity to build and innovate in the same way the early Christians did because we have new plagues, memetic plagues which humanity hadn't [00:47:00] had to face before.

Simone Collins: Exactly.

Malcolm Collins: Any, any thoughts or you want to go straight into this last point here?

Simone Collins: Last point. because I need to make dinner. So he finishes with, is this all there is? I'm not sure. I'll also talk about Jesus as cheap, but I still don't understand how they managed to be so virtuous and loving in a way that so few modern Christians, even the ones who really believe in Jesus are.

I'm not making boring, liberal complaint that Christians are hypocritical and evil. Although, of course, many are, I'm making the equally boring, but hopefully less inflammatory complaint that many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens, but don't really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy.

I'm not complaining or blaming Christians for this. Almost nobody is that person. I just wonder what the early Christians had, which modern Christians have lost. Very interesting question and observation.

Malcolm Collins: I can tell you, the early Christians weren't doing this, they were doing, they weren't doing this [00:48:00] because they were good people, they were doing this because they were giddy about becoming martyrs.

As you can see from their own writings, they were giddy about dying for a better future. The concept of martyrdom, of making, as we say within techno puritan, your entire life needs to be lived as a martyr for future generations. And every moment you spend on yourself is a moment where you are not living within God's plan.

And we should all understand, we all fall short of a perfect person. We are all going to indulge to some extent. But the other iterations of Christianity have completely abandoned the concept of genuine martyrdom. Of, of, of genuinely saying I am going to live every moment I can as much on the edge as I can, like you need to be basically edging your life in terms of how difficult you're making it for yourself.

You know, why would you pay for, for, for one additional thing? Why would you pay for one additional ounce of heating [00:49:00] if you can handle the cold? Why would you pay for one additional meal out if you can motivate yourself without that? Why would you pay for, and we fail, we fail, like I, I fail all the time at this.

Like I am not trying to be the perfect Christian. Within this iteration of Christianity, there are people who will do better than me, but I think having the one, the humility to admit that about yourself and to not pretend, which I think is one of the biggest problems that modern Christians face, is to pretend that your sins, your indulgences, whether they are indulgences in your ego, indulgences in how you are signaling to other people, indulgences in whatever, are virtues.

You know, one of the things I was talking to somebody about the discord server about is like, why don't you attack? Gay people more like in our family, like I wouldn't want my sons to be gay I wouldn't approve that but I approve of somebody else who's living a gay lifestyle, right? And they're like, so then why don't you attack them and I go because that would be a complete personal indulgence They [00:50:00] are a large and powerful community today.

If you go out and attack them if you say that they shouldn't be living this lifestyle that is going to completely derail something like the pronatalist movement, which we're trying to grow. Like you are picking a fight with a group that we need to win election cycles out of personal pride. That is an indulgence, that is a sin.

And Christians today, I'll frame that like, you know, there's many Christians who have these misogynistic framings, who will have these homophobic framings, who have these anti-Semitic framings. You need Jews on your side if you're gonna win in the future. And when you attack groups that are more powerful than your own.

When I say more powerful, I mean doing better than your own are obviously going to matter more than your own. I mean, look at something like the Catholics with their abysmal fertility rate. That's like lower than the secular fertility rate in the United States if you don't include immigrants. Like that they would like be like, who, who, who, like, for example, like

Malcolm Collins: It's either the Catholics or the Jews.

[00:51:00] Pick a side, do not performatively attack potential allies That is sinful and indulgent in a world where we are entering one of the hardest of timelines and we need as many allies as you can have, even if you might disagree with them from your own families and cultures perspective, you can say, oh, I don't want my own kids doing this, but I'm open to outlying and working with other people who do this.

And, and I especially am not interested in antagonizing them.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I think it's important that we see individuals who indulgently.

Or performatively attack other groups.

The way we see any other form of intemperance and look at them with the same level of disgust in those moments. As the drunker stumbling down the streets, barely able to hold themselves together. , because this is an individual who puts all of us at risk. [00:52:00] If they are seen as part of your community and they are regularly going out and shooting at other communities. , with words. , they make Alliance with those communities harder and they make those communities more likely to retaliate, you know, back in the days of the American clan system and like the Appalachian region or something like that.

If you had one person. Who would pick too many fights? , Was outsiders that Klan would, you know, take them out back and beat them to death. Like that's what you had to do because people needed to know you don't act that way because you put everyone else at risk. When you act with this level of intemperance and personal indulgence.

If the people you're attacking, aren't an active and ever present threat to you.

Not just not aligned with you. If they earn an active threat to you, then leave them alone.

Anyway, any final thoughts, Simone?

Simone Collins: I'm going to have to chew on this for a long time and I'm really grateful. This really great summary exists. Probably need to read the book too. So thanks for. [00:53:00] Going over this with me. It was fun to read the original.

It was fun to talk about it with you. And I think it's all about the birth rates in the end. So there you go. I think it's, well, it's about the birth rates and creating a great life and, and the Christianity offered both of those. They offered a better way of living. That was more fun for all people involved.

And that's, I think your big point about prenatalism. It's not about coercing anyone. It's just about providing a better way of living, loving your kids better, giving them such a great experience that they want to pass that on and that they're capable of passing it on because they're thriving and that's what Christianity did and that's what any good religion that's going to survive into the future.

I completely

Malcolm Collins: agree. We've got a Madagascar it,

There's room on the fun side for one more. No thanks. Look, I've been thinking. Maybe if you gave this place a chance, you might even enjoy yourself. [00:54:00]

It's him. Can I come to the fun side?

Malcolm Collins: you know, as I've said before, you need to have a more fun when people come in, they need to enjoy the vitalism that they're experiencing here more with other communities. Don't be in some circle jerk about who's being more virtuous or who's being more. That, that destroys the vibe.

When people come in, they need to come in and be like, Oh yeah, this is cool.

The core of Christianity, the reactor that makes it work and so powerful. Is not a set of rules. Or.

, hierarchy. It's martyrdom itself. That is what Jesus represented. That is what all of the early Christians focused on it is. To martyrs that we look to with respect. Not the fuddy-duddy, who's following all of the rules as strictly as they can and trying to enforce them on [00:55:00] other people that doesn't make other people want to join your group.

What does make other people want to join your group is seeing people live their lives as martyrs. Because as I pointed out, it's not really your death that makes you a martyr. Everyone dies. What makes you a good martyr? Is how you choose to spend this one short existence? You get on earth. That's what makes you a martyr?

So you don't need to go out and get yourself killed, to be a martyr. And in many ways I'd argue that you are more of a martyr. If you spend a long life in murderdom then if you spend only a few moments,

In a. Showy murderdom which in a way can be kind of. Indulgent to monitor yourself too fast. And in two showy away.

And a lot of our religious stuff around the book, the partner to move man or in our tracks theories. We contextualize.

Humanity. As an intergenerational cycle of martyrdom, where every generation is duty is to murder themselves. For the sake of the next generation to help [00:56:00] improve their lot. And it's funny that a, , antinatalist might hear that and be like, yes, we agree. We need to stop the cycle of martyrdom. But because we have this very Christian infused ideology, we're like, no, the martyrdom is good.

The martyrdom is what gives life meaning and value.

And by the way, are you seeing the snow? It's actually beginning to build up first real snow of the year.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it's really pretty.

Malcolm Collins: And what are we making for dinner tonight?

Simone Collins: I was thinking for you grilled cheese sandwich and tomato soup, perhaps.

Or I can make vegetables gyoza. Or I can make more teriyaki chicken. This time, if you want vegetables stir fry, I can add that. Or I can make just egg fried rice.

Malcolm Collins: I'll let you choose between teriyaki chicken and grilled cheese sandwiches. I really could do either if you do make teriyaki chicken cut it into smaller pieces this time That was like huge and weird last time. I don't know what was weird about that pack It was very different from the other packs that you've cooked

Simone Collins: yeah, I'll just I'll saute the chicken first and chop it up and then put it back in.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then serve it [00:57:00] separately because all the sauce from that moved into the rice and that created a situation.

Simone Collins: Oh, you don't want saucy rice? Cause the other day you asked me to pour your curry over your rice.

Malcolm Collins: I do that myself, or I'd ask you to do it, but with the teriyaki, I want to do it one bite of teriyaki, and then the rice.

A bite of plain rice.

Simone Collins: Okay, sorry, I didn't realize you're eating procedure. You're, shut up, you're weirder than I am. Oh, yeah, I am. I'm very aware. I'm very aware of the fact, because a copy of me now comments about his mouth getting wet when he eats strawberries, and that's a problem. They can't keep eating.

Mommy, my

Malcolm Collins: mouth is wet. My mouth is getting wet and it's like your mouth is already wet. My mouth is dirty. No, there's food in it. Torsten. Torsten. Torsten.

Simone Collins: Torsten. Torsten. All right. Well, I love you. I'll get started on dinner. Love you too. Until you get the kids. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Absolutely.

Simone Collins: Thank you, gorgeous. [00:58:00] I love you so much.

Malcolm Collins: Happy to be married to you.

Simone Collins: You're perfect. I hit it. Sorry. There it clicks. Okay, everyone. In March, there is NatalCon. This is the second inaugural Pronatalist convention. You should be there. We're going to be there. It's in Austin. And if you want a 10 percent discount, you can enter the code Collins at checkout.

Malcolm Collins: And it's being run by Kevin Dolan, our good friend.

Very spicy, very spicy. Yes. Love him.

So for those unfamiliar, with the tradition that we're going to show in this family video. , in America, it is common on the night before Christmas to leave out milk and cookies or brownies or something like that for Santa Claus. We did that. The kids knocked over the glass of milk and here they are cleaning it up.

And then one of them breaking my wife's mind. Decides to start ringing the napkins that they're using to clean the milk off the floor into Santos cup.

Speaker 4: It's going into the top. There we go. [00:59:00] That was very careful. Now I'm just going to dry it. There we go. Wow. Good job, buddies.

Oh dear, oh. Don't get them off there! Yes, or else they'll get ruined. There we go. It's, it's drying. Drying. I'll make sure they don't get wet. Yes, I'll make it dry, lads.

There we go. I think that's it. There we go. I'm going to put it Oh, just a little bit of milk on the table. There you go. We're going to be, we're going to be on an ostrich! I'm squeezing in the car. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna punch your phone. You don't want to do that, Toastie. I punched it. I punched it.

Speaker 6: Alright, buddies. Alright, let's go to bed so Santa doesn't miss our house because we are awake. You got it? Oh dear. No, [01:00:00] Toastie, no. No. Santa's drinking that. Toastie, Santa's drinking that. Is Santa's drinking it? I think we need to replace that milk because that's, you don't.

Oh, you're trying to get more milk for Santa.

You're worried that Santa is not going to have enough milk. Hey.

Alright. High five, buddy. Thank you.[01:01:00]

So that he would have enough milk?

It's okay, Toastie.

Speaker 4: I think, hey guys, let's go to bed before Santa comes. That's a good idea. High five, buddy. Can I stay? We're gonna go to bed! High five! High five!

In this episode, we delve into the persistent high quality of Japanese artistic endeavors, the influence of Western DEI initiatives on American and European companies, and how these factors contribute to the success or failure of media and gaming studios. We highlight the successes from Japan and China, the pitfalls of 'woke' culture on large organizations, and the implications of bureaucratic bloat on creativity. We also discuss the impact of UN initiatives on Japanese media, particularly anime and manga, and explore broader cultural tensions around gender roles, ethnic stereotypes, and the future of media production in a world increasingly influenced by AI. Additionally, we touch on the concept of teaching children about responsibility, financial independence, and the realities of the modern economy.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about a interesting phenomenon, which is one, the persistent high quality of Japanese artistic endeavors as well as, The persistent efforts of the West to inject their companies and successful in some instances with D.

E. I. With the urban monoculture with woke ism and destroying those companies in the process we have seen, you know, throughout the course of this year, if we look at the disastrous dragon age veil card Assassin's Creed shadows..

It's encore, another major development project in the U S.

And for what I hear, things are looking good for a vowed.

And all of them are flopping. And then we get these huge successes both out of Japan and China. So like, I think blackness Wukong is out of China. We had a big success from Japan. I can't remember.

Yeah, the ones I was thinking of were games like Dragon's dogma to.

Final fantasy. Helldivers two,

frost punk [00:01:00] too.

And monster hunter wilds.

We had from like, I want to say Eastern European studio.

We had Helldivers. We had you've Helldivers? Was that a Japan? No, Helldivers was Eastern Europe. Okay. But even some Eastern European studios are getting corrupt. Like when they get too big, like, When any

Simone Collins: organization gets too big. Project Lead

Malcolm Collins: or whatever it's called, the one that developed the Witcher and like a lot of good games, they've become super infected with woke ism.

And they're now you know, like, oh, you see it in all this stuff. And it's correlated with the downfall of their studio and inability to make good products. Which I think we're increasingly seeing the bureaucratic bloat was in their studio was, which is that they adapted all this stuff. And, and the smaller studios in that region, like, you know, one of my favorite releases from this year, Frostpunk two, that's Eastern Europe, you know, And it's good.

It's Frostpunk two.

Simone Collins: Good.

Malcolm Collins: It's great. Yeah, I think the only good game that came out of the U. S. So I heard it had a big team in Eastern Europe was space Marines to but then we've also got like bad media in the U. S. And the question is, is [00:02:00] I want to get into like the U. N. Trying to ban this and the reaction to this.

Simone Collins: Okay,

Malcolm Collins: but why media like why I have a Crunchyroll account and I don't have a Netflix account and I know I should be giving money to Crunchyroll. It's just easy. Okay, and I don't have a Netflix account. Why should you not be

Simone Collins: giving money to Crunchyroll? Did they they're super woke

Malcolm Collins: they spend it on woke b******t.

They're terrible. But I don't have a Netflix account You know, I don't have an HBO account. I don't have a paramount account. And the the reason is Is because the media that's being produced there, if we talk about the one civilization hypothesis, is that wherever the one civilization blooms, it typically allows for large bureaucracies.

So I should note, if you haven't seen our one civilization hypothesis video, it's that humanity has largely consisted of one civilization that was, if you actually look at like the archaeological, artistic, and literature record despite what the DEI proponents want you to think, of only one civilization.

which is hopped from one ethnic group to another started in Egypt, went to Mesopotamia, then went to Ancient Greece, then [00:03:00] went to Rome, then went to Charlemagne like Central Europe, then went to the Victorian Empire then went around the world. And that after a while, like Greece today sucks.

Speaker: They smell like a bed of cheese. I

Speaker 2: The Faginoculuses are good people.

Speaker 4: Good people? They're Greeks. And Greeks are just Jews without money.

Malcolm Collins: Like this is not like an essence of premises theory at all. But like, it seems to exhaust the potential of a people after it reaches a golden age within a specific region. And I wonder if it's already exhausted a portion of the American potential.

I really worry about that. Like, are we. And this is what I always wonder. Are we at the end of the Roman Republic or are we at the end of the Roman Empire? I think it's more likely we're at the end of the Roman Republic. But it has exhausted a lot of the creative dynamism of America of the giant companies in America.

And so when I'm going for artistic creations, I need to go to a place less tainted because that's the [00:04:00] only place I'm going to find things that don't look like they came out of a factory line.

United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, CEDAW, oh my god.

Can you believe they have, like, a whole committee on this? Like, our country is paying for, like, the United Nations to exist, and they're spitting that money on things like the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women Committee. And they don't, they don't focus on, like, the Middle East. They focus on anime.

This is about imposing a cultural hegemony, not on actually lowering the amount of discrimination.

Simone Collins: No, the fan service must end, Malcolm. It is not to be tolerated. No man can experience

Malcolm Collins: pleasure. They have expressed concerns about Japanese media, including anime and manga in a report from CEDAW. They claimed that these forms of media could potentially encourage gender based sexual orientation, gender based or sexual orientation based violence against women and girls.

The committee recommended that Japan [00:05:00] implement quote. Effective legal measures and monitoring programs in quote to address the production and distribution of such content The report also emphasized the need to address gender stereotypes towards minority groups in japan Including a new burakim and zinachi korean women and girls.

Oh, you want to reduce japanese? Like, like, stereotypes of, like, Korean and Chinese people. They're like, could you take, like, a more direct shot at Japanese culture? Like, you guys need to stop being so racist against other East Asian groups. And they're like, but that's, like, our core thing, man.

I find it shocking that are so drenched in their own cultural perspective. That they fail to see that different cultures may have a degree of cultural supremacism as part of the culture itself and attempting to erase that is attempting to erase a core element of that culture. It is. Racist. To [00:06:00] attempt to convince a culture that has

That has ethnic pride, deeply embedded within it. To erase that aspect of their cultural inheritance. And this wouldn't be so bad if this rule wasn't applied it's so unevenly two different ethnic groups. As we have seen walkies are the first to argue that some groups are allowed to act with ethnic supremacy.

For example, black cultural groups in America, they, they would say, oh, well, they can't be racist. Whatever they do, it's not racist. , but Asians, Japanese. Oh no, they don't. They don't get that protection. Why? It was because they're racist. They believe that different humans based on their skin color or ethnic background are deserving of different levels of human dignity and human rights. And Asians are one of the bottom groups to them.

Speaker 5: What does that mean? I think she just called you a racist, Penny. Black people can't be racist! I agree.

Malcolm Collins: I think that it is okay to accept that societies like korea like when I was [00:07:00] in korea I experienced a lot of racism. And I was like totally chill with it.

I was like, yeah, I get it I shouldn't be here. This is, this is, this is not your culture. I am in many ways parasitizing on your culture's arbitrage that you have given me. And that is it's so funny that like, you know, I, I'd say that like people in the U S like Kamala Harris can't say, I only have this position because I'm a black woman.

I only have this job. Joe Biden said he's only hiring black women for this that I would never have gotten this far in my wife life. If I was a white man given my qualifications, given my achievements she was unable to admit that to the public in Korea. I admitted that all the time. I'd be like, I probably wouldn't have this job if I was Korean.

And I understand why there's animosity towards me. And I think that that is part of what's needing to be accepted by the modern elite black community in America. If we're going to get through this is they need to say, look, as a black person who grew up upper class. Now, I'm not saying that this is true of black, lower and middle class people.

They actually have it much harder. [00:08:00] But the programs don't really end up benefiting them. They only end up benefiting the black elite class. These people can't, like Kamala Harris can't say, I understand I benefited from systemic privileges throughout my entire life that gave me advantages over other people.

That's the first step in any form of healing. And the unwillingness to do that is, is, is, is really, I think, a core moral failing of the individual. I'm not saying that they need, they need to leave their jobs, but just admit that, like, you played an arbitrage game. And most of our black friends do admit this, like, behind closed doors, like, Oh, f**k it.

Yeah, I know what I don't have this job for real Z. But also a lot of our black friends are Africans. And so they're even like, like double cucking the US black population. They're like, yeah, my ancestors. have always been leaders of our area of whatever, you know, they're all like descended from royalty.

And you know, we, we came here with a lot of wealth already, and now we're taking all the VC jobs because the VCs don't see a difference between us and the Americans the black [00:09:00] Americans. So they're not even helping the people they're supposed to. They're, they're helping the people that sold their ancestors into slavery.

As we saw was that horrifying movie what was it? It was about like the, the, the queen, like the African queen.

Speaker 8: It's crazy to me that you live in a time where when you share the truth about slavery and the fact that Africans were brutal about enslaving and slave raiding other tribes and delivering them to the coast for the transatlantic slave trade, you get called a white supremacist and that you hate yourself.

This happened when I called out the movie, The Woman King, which glorified slave raiders. Those warrior women were slave raiders, but at least some people are honest about it, like Lupita Nyong'o. Brutal truth of what were some of the outcomes of their actions.

Malcolm Collins: the truly twisted thing about.

The woman king as a movie. Is that it portrayed this tribe as. Fighting back against Europeans who were pressuring [00:10:00] them. Into being slavers when the exact opposite was true, specifically, the British at the time were already zealously. Anti-slavery. And even went so far as to. For no financial benefit themselves, they were just doing this because they saw slavery as a moral negative. Blockade the port capital city of this kingdom. Uh, this was an 1852. Uh, and demand that they both stop selling slaves and stop wide-scale human sacrifice. There was a capitulation, but the treaty only lasted for five years.

And under his advisors that king gesso resumed the slave trade in 1857.

So the reality is. Is that the white people in this story would have been trying to end slavery and the black. Tribe of women warriors [00:11:00] that is being elevated by this story. We're the ones perpetuating it.

They did like a really big movie like last year or something that's all supposed to be like affirming of black people and this queen in this tribe. Yeah, she did exist historically and she made all her money by selling other black people into slavery.

That was her, her, her tribes economy. They don't, they don't talk about that. But it's, it's, it's horrifying. It's horrifying. This dehumanization of the American black population to just being black and not being like different ethnic groups. But this is not the first time that the UN has done something like this.

Simone, did you have any thoughts before I go further?

Simone Collins: No, I just, they're, they're going to have to try the anime from our cold, dead hands. It's not going anywhere. Like, I just, I don't know what people think they're doing. In the end.

Well, no, they have

Malcolm Collins: successfully fucked up anime studios, and we'll get to this in a second. Really? Specifically, like, Bandai, for example, has adopted a bunch of DEI practices. We've seen some in Sony, we've seen some in [00:12:00] Sega, we've seen some in Nintendo. Like, it's getting bad for the big bureaucracies, because they're the ones that are most susceptible to this.

And then, even when they do make a good game, like, the latest Fire Emblem wasn't great, but, like, at least it had, like, romance options. They were all taken out of the U. S. version, because the translators took all of them out, because they're like, oh, we can't have you romancing your subordinates in a game.

It's like, ugh. Okay. I hate you guys so much. I hate you so much.

Speaker 2: And don't even get me started about this whole labor rights thing. What have we come to if you can't demand sexual favors from the people in your employ?

Malcolm Collins: However much you think you hate the, the, the infected population you should hate them more. The Cordyceps virus has eaten their brains and they ruin everything good and positive about this world.

Speaker 2: Our people have lost their way. A report that over 40 percent of the population no longer believes that you have to buy your way into the divine treasury when you die.

They don't teach [00:13:00] children the rules of acquisition anymore! Spreading through Ferengi society. It's making us soft.

Malcolm Collins: But this isn't the first time that the UN has done this in 2016.

So you can get an idea of how overreaching they want to be and what their actual goals are. So I want you to keep in mind, our taxes are

Simone Collins: super creepy. This is super fascist, big brother, big brother. Oh, very.

Malcolm Collins: So the committee remains concerned at the persistence of patriarchal attitudes and deep rooted stereotypes regarding the roles and responsibilities of women and men in the family and in society.

Particularly concerned that, so by the way, isn't this horrifying? Horrifying! This is the U. N. This is what our tax dollars are going for, and they're pulling this fight the patriarchy, ultra, ultra, ultra feminist woke s**t.

Oh my gosh.

That's what they're trying to erase from media. Women being mothers.

Women being happy with subordinate positions within the family life.

I mean [00:14:00]

Anyway, wow, thank god, by the way, all this is coming like even if they destroy the anime studios because of AI Independent creators will be able to create like really high quality content soon so they'll be destroying this as more and more of the eyes are moving to smaller and smaller studios smaller and smaller creative And the bureaucracies just die out.

But anyway, so the three things they really are concerned about a the persistence of these stereotypes continues to be reflected in the media and educational textbooks and has an impact on educational choices and the sharing of family and domestic responsibilities between men and women. You know, what's funny here is that women go into STEM professions more, the more society discriminates against women.

You see very low rates in Northern European countries and very high rates in Middle Eastern countries. So like, Their own narrative is just like anti reality. Okay, next B, the media often depicts women and girls in a stereotyped manner, including as sex objects. This is what they mean by women in anime [00:15:00] looking attractive.

This is like when they were trying to shut down. This is the

Simone Collins: same thing. Remember when this happened with. Superhero characters, and the accusation was like, look at the women wearing their whatever. And then like, wait, but what about these muscular men? Like the fan service goes both ways. And this also exists in anime.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. When they rebooted She Ra, they didn't, you know, they make her look like an underage kid. Right. And that's, that's worse. It's so much worse. They rebooted He Man and He Man still has all his muscles.

Oh, gosh. Well, I don't know what to say. What? No, I know what to say. We live in a society where men are seen as an underclass and as a deserving underclass.

And it's just obviously true. And people, I think people are waking up to this and they're like, Oh s**t. Like, I think this is why a lot of moms move really far to the right when they're like, Oh wow. Like the level of discrimination my child would face. I can't stand for [00:16:00] that. I can't stand for the amount of systemic.

And structural privilege our society gives to women and their ability to just like believe women, like they can just get a guy jailed whenever they feel like it. Like just say whatever they want and you can't even question them. And, and so we're concerned

Simone Collins: about people getting jailed for posting their thoughts online.

That really scares me. But you've seen a lot in like the UK and

Malcolm Collins: stuff like

Simone Collins: that.

Malcolm Collins: If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about. One example here. Happened where a judge sent it to someone for two, two years and seven months in prison for writing after three girls were murdered mass deportation. Now set fire to all of the. F-ing hotel's full of the b******s for all I care while you're edit, take the treacherous government and politicians with them.

I feel physically sick knowing what these families were now have to endure. If that makes me racist. So be it. The same judge gave a zero month sentence to somebody with.

[00:17:00] PDA file material.

In another instance, Matthew Woods 20 was jailed for posting an offensive Facebook status update.

It's not a good sign. And so, C, sexist speech continues to be directed against women, ethnic or other minority women, such as Anyu, Baruka, or Zazaki Korean women and migrant women. And this is an anime. It's like, man, this is an anime.

The committee reiterates its previous recommendation. So they had recommended this before, by the way, even before the 2000 this is all the way back in 2016. But they did another recent more adamant one recently where Japan's actually pushed back a little. And urges the state party to A, intensify its efforts to change social norms that reinforce traditional roles of women and men and promote positive cultural traditions that promote the human rights of women and girls.

I sometimes talk about.

The imperialist nature of the urban mono culture. And I think some people might under sell just how strong and aggressive [00:18:00] it is in its desire to erase. Every other culture on this planet and replace it with only the urban monoculture. Outside of a few aesthetic flourishes, like maybe still being allowed to wear your local clothing or still being allowed to hold a few holidays. We really see that at play here. They define gender relations as the urban mono culture defines gender relations as a mandate for all of their cultures. When they go to Japan, because the way that Japanese people traditionally relate to women is culturally unique to Japan.

It is a way that Japan has historically done that it is Japanese culture. So when they go to Japan and they say, you have to do things, our European urban monoculture way, that is a cultural genocide mandate. That they are trying to impose upon a culture that they have power over even by their own racism is power plus [00:19:00] prejudice. Could anyone be wielding racism more clearly than the UN itself in this instance?

So they want to fight against traditionalism. They want to fight against the nuclear family. They want to fight against women taking a subordinate position in relationships. All of the s**t that You know works. And you grew up a progressive. You didn't think you'd want a subordinate position in a relationship, I think.

Simone Collins: No, I mean, absolutely not. But I also didn't think I wanted a relationship at all, which is pretty indicative of where we are today. I think what's disturbing about this is this is not the default people are growing up with. You don't need to extinguish this anymore. And to now go so far as to basically ban it as an option is far more restrictive and creepy than.

Any, you know, feminism should be about choices and of course, the classic thing you hear from trad wives all the time is this was my choice to pursue this pathway and that is feminism. So it feels [00:20:00] overdone at this point to say that, but that that is a freedom that is being restricted by these policies.

Malcolm Collins: And here the final point they wanted to make is effective implementation of existing legal measures and monitoring programs in order to regulate the production and distribution of video games and animation that exacerbate discriminatory gender stereotypes and reinforce sexual violence against women and girls.

They included corn in there. I just took it out because it was faster. But they're really buying into this sexual violence

Being depicted against women in art and media.

is something that is being driven by.

Males when it objectively isn't I will put on screen here the statistics which are very like like loud in showing like Girls wanting to be choked for example is not coming from male porn It's coming from female fan fictions and fantasies and you can see this in the average arousal patterns of women which we'll put on the screen here from some of aila's data but anything you want to say before I go further [00:21:00] Go on.

So the Japanese political response, so some in Japan have actually wanted to implement this. So Masaka Aara submitted a petition to the 213th diet session, calling for stricter regulations on content, including manga and anime that featured inappropriate. Depictions of characters resembling children.

The initiative aims to amend the current laws, including the no, what's interesting is how recently we'll go into this in a second. How recently Japan it, it, it made child corn illegal to the extent where I'll admit, there is some stuff where I'm like, could you not put this in a content that I'm otherwise enjoying?

Yeah, I'm feeling a little

Simone Collins: uncomfortable here. This was not asked for.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like, I, on Amazon, this was streaming on Amazon, I'm watching a show, I otherwise liked it, it's very, very, very low culture. If you want to watch it, I like the characters in it, and some of the themes, but it is basically, A sexual anime.

And it is called [00:22:00] Gushing Over Magical Girls.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Very fun. Basically, the plot is, is that and I, I wouldn't recommend it. It's sort of like low tier slop if you love stuff that just like absolutely is the bottom of the cultural barrel. Like, if that elevates something for you, you'll enjoy this, but you need to be okay with that.

Where she becomes a villain in an anime girl story, but all she wants to do because she's obsessed with magical girls, is like, do sexual stuff to the magical girls. But then like, you get to like episode five or something, and an underage girl is introduced. And she does scenes that are like dressing one of the magical girls up in like diapers and stuff and her a bottle, and you're like, I didn't ask, like maybe this law would be okay.

Speaker 11: You want me more? Wait! What

Simone Collins: [00:23:00] Like that be where I'm like, I don't want that. No, I think, you know what? In the end, norm normative pressure and good taste, or the best. Standards here. And just being like, you know, did we really need to do that is a better policy than you were not allowed to do that.

Malcolm Collins: Unfortunately, Simone, the enemy has been financially rewarded better this last year than I forgot, like, a really mainstream enemy.

To give you an idea of just how popular it was. It even significantly outsold, both Fran and solo leveling.

You know what?

Simone Collins: Maybe we're in the wrong here. What do you call them, crinklers? What are the diaper fetish people? I guess those are the ones who like to walk around with the poopy diapers. That's different. No,

Malcolm Collins: I basically saw it as just a how far can we push the barrier in modern society is what the anime was doing.

And a part of me from like the 90s not in [00:24:00] like a lame way because a lot of things in like the 90s they'd be like, oh, let's make random like um, Pee jokes or whatever, right? Or like random sex jokes. Like Lex did this. It's a good example of this. This is not that type of humor. It's just like decent characterization done in an interesting setting that I and, and otherwise slop anime.

But anyway, to continue. But one senator was pushing back against this stuff, Tara Yamada. Yamada stated that no questions about manga, anime, or video games were raised during the in person review during the mention in the final report. He is considering requesting that CDawg disclose their sources and evidence and may even ask for a retraction if the information is not provided.

Now, there's been some other examples of censorship, like the Tennessee ban. So in the United States, Tennessee implemented a sweeping ban across various mega titles in school libraries.

And

popular franchises like Attack on Titan and My Hero Academia. What? My Hero Academia?

Simone Collins: Wait, what did they [00:25:00] do?

I don't know. Was she a little bit of a fan of this or something?

Malcolm Collins: I think this is some like jiggling breast, perhaps. What what is happening? There's not even that like my hero academia has is I think this is like the the sexual Puritans that still exists within some corners of the right accidentally got into power here and we're given a little too much power without the new right slapping them around a bit.

A short skirt flapping

Simone Collins: a little bit too vigorously.

Malcolm Collins: For people who don't know my hero academia, great anime. You have so many

Simone Collins: My Hero Academia AMVs in your little roster. Well,

Malcolm Collins: and the, the women are really well done in it. I think it's one of the most affirming of women's shows I have ever seen in terms of good female stereotypes.

Yeah, it,

Simone Collins: it, it doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't come across a lot of a lot of anime does come across as very gendered. Right? There's sort of like the harem trope or there's, you know, a lot. There's a lot of like, very feminine roles. This is 1 of those anime that [00:26:00] just doesn't feel like it's about gender differences.

It's about people who want to be the best. And period. And they are. They're really great. Well, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: but not just that. But the women in it, the reason I like it so much is it, when it creates strong female characters, it doesn't make them strong in that, like, stereotyped Western way where, like, making them a Mary Sue who's, like, tough and puts down men and is, like, the alpha in every situation.

When I think of it's strong characters, like Udemy or Froppy or Well, really, any of the female characters in it. Like, every female character in it is, is, is, is pretty, who is fleshed out, is pretty interesting and otherwise a, a strong person, they're all very effeminate in the way that they're strong,

By that, what I mean here is as a conservative, if I wanted to give my daughters something that showed them how to be both strong without abandoning traditional [00:27:00] femininity. Along a number of metrics because most of the different females in it show a different type of female strings. Which is really interesting that they were able to find that many unique archetypes of female strength. I could think of few shows better to do that than my hero academia.

For example, in this scene, you see MENA having the courage to confidently deceive, a big strong villain and character, even when she's in middle school.

But the show immediately makes it clear that this is not because she is an intrinsically brave person, but just because her care for her friends is higher than her fear.

Speaker 16: What? You're not gonna answer me? Crap! Why aren't there ever any heroes patrolling at times like these? It's a simple question.

Speaker 17: MOve! Come on!

Speaker 18: Around that corner and then make a left at the big street! The agency's two kilometers [00:28:00] away! very much.

Speaker 21: 2km away!

Malcolm Collins: Even when they are completely subordinate.

So here I'm thinking of a gentle criminals sidekick.

I forget her name.

Speaker 35: Brava's love will set me free. La Brava, grab the cameras. We made a prank and look like amateurs. The moustache must look so glamorous. Otherwise in the comments they will slander us. To be remembered we can never be average. And my strength grows cause you feel so amorous. You were You are so much. You were there for me when everybody else would judge.

And I know I promised you we would succeed. That time is gone, and it's only a dream.

Malcolm Collins: Very supportive, very sweet character who is powerful in the way that many women are powerful in our [00:29:00] society by providing love and support to her partner. Yeah.

And I know gender to

Simone Collins: be gender. I'm also thinking about food wars, which you and I both love, love, love.

And I could see if some review board is watching food wars, they're watching it. And they see one scene of like food judges eating food and their clothes. Yeah. Their clothes blowing up.

Malcolm Collins: I tried to find a PC version of one of these scenes to put in here, but even finding a still image that was PC enough for the podcast

was challenging.

Simone Collins: I'm honestly just picturing like. The, the review boards, clothes popping off too. Just being

Malcolm Collins: like,

Simone Collins: wow,

Malcolm Collins: Food Wars also like really doesn't care about consent.

There's a number of scenes in it where the guy feeds a girl like gross food without just

Simone Collins: teasing her with like really gross food. And I would argue though, that there are many, many female characters in Food Wars that are extremely strong, independent, entrepreneurial, intimidating [00:30:00] women. Who come across as more masculine than some of the male characters.

Like, they just, it's not like things are these black and white stereotypical, weirdly gendered absolutes. So I they're,

Malcolm Collins: they're not, they're not tainted by Westernism. They're not like, you know, a Miss Marvel or a She Hulk or you know, one, like a, a just a translation of a male character into a female character, but two incredibly bland because they all have their.

Faults and the ways that they are strong are all uniquely feminine, which is something that Japan is still able to do and the west has seemingly forgotten how to do. Mm-Hmm. , how do you make a woman feminine and strong? Like I'm thinking food wars. The great scene with the mega, mega always gets me the, when she's in the war against you know, it's the, the, what was it?

Speaker 24: Then try a bite. Why should I bother? Do it.

Speaker 23: It isn't cooked right. The plating is off and the pate hasn't [00:31:00] set properly.

Speaker 25: Yet, why? Why is it tugging at my heart like this? The dish is crude. But the way each ingredient was treated shows careful consideration for the diner. It Reminds me

Speaker 26: Boy, you were fighting again, weren't ya? Oh Sweetheart You're always flying off the handle like this the truth is you're a kind boy.

Now let's hurry back and eat. I'm making your favorite for dinner tonight. There's a rainbow. It's pretty, huh? Kojiro.

Speaker 27: Yeah Thank goodness,

Speaker 23: Okay, Dimwit.

Speaker 27: Yes?

Speaker 23: That spice you added to the pate, it was all spice, wasn't it? Um,

Speaker 27: Um, no, uh, right. Huh? Well, I know you've all been judging since yesterday, right? And I know you've had to eat a lot of different foods. Well, Allspice aids in digestion and might do you some good. I, I wanted to give you something that would be gentle and might help settle your tummies.

You really are [00:32:00] so thoughtful and sweet!

Speaker 24: Though clumsy, it resonates. That's the kind of food she's made.

Malcolm Collins: And that's such a where the males are strong because of like maybe technical prowess for her. She outcompetes everyone because she just cared more than other people.

​

Malcolm Collins: So if you're a conservative adult and don't get why so many conservative kids are into things like anime, despite their lewdness, this is. Big part of it. It is one of the only places in society today because like American conservative media, I think does a fairly poor job. Of.

Showing the ways, for example, that women can be heroic in a feminine way. but anime is still captures that very well. In addition to that, we have the move of conservative culture in the United States from a deep south oriented culture to an Appalachian clan based oriented culture, which. Associates vulgarity with authenticity.

As we [00:33:00] seen with stuff like Trump, as we've mentioned in some of our more anthropological videos. Um, about the new right. And so I think that that's a second thing. Is it the vulgarity that is common within anime is seen as a lack of pretension and authenticity. Instead of as a negative.

Now the Tennessee ban, I get it. You know, whatever. It's school libraries. I really don't care. I guess like it annoys me. Who's

Simone Collins: hanging out in school libraries for fun anyway, just go to a library library, I guess. But although it's a shame, but also I went to a school library at a school that was, you know, these books were like 13 years old and falling apart at the seams.

I feel like I would rather have books that. We're relatively new. The idea of there being maybe manga in my library just seems so luxurious that I'm like, Oh, nice problem to have if they're taking away your manga. Oh, I'm so sorry. I had to borrow my manga from my very generous friends. Thank you very much.

And we just passed books around like, yeah, that

Malcolm Collins: would have been such a luxury. [00:34:00] That's like having a water slide in your library. Oh,

Simone Collins: they've taken away your water slide. Oh, boo. Can who? Cheese. Yeah, you're right. Like this is not that big of a deal, but it's still annoying, right? I mean, it would be nice to have a water slide in your library, so it's sucks.

Here's something I,

Malcolm Collins: I found really weird because I was like trying to understand because I also got into all of this and I was like, you know, I've noticed on like Japanese pornography, they do the like weird censorship stuff. Oh,

Simone Collins: yeah. Like, you can't see penises. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: is that

Simone Collins: actually illegal in Japan?

Like,

Malcolm Collins: I wasn't

Simone Collins: sure. Yes. Yes. And that, I mean, this is more apocryphal that squid, the tentacle porn, is a product of penises not being permitted, right? But tentacles are. So, oh, how convenient. The penetration is from a tentacle, not a penis. And that's why you have those double lines over penises in anime, because there was some legislation at some point that banned depicting penises.

And I think maybe vagina. So you can actually see that. Did you know

Malcolm Collins: that owning child corn in Japan was [00:35:00] only made illegal in 2014? Well,

Simone Collins: that just, this, I think this goes to show how trying to legislate your way into, like, the Forcing people to be moral doesn't work like either. You're going to create an underground black market.

That's unregulated and even worse. Or, I mean, I guess I feel weird about this. So, I recently read this great sub stack going over the damage caused or subject caused by. Post going over the damage caused by allowing sports gambling. And it showed that in states that have come to allow sports gambling, the average savings of all citizens in that state goes down by like 360.

And that bankruptcies have gone up 18%. And that's, this is bad, right? So there, there are moral hazards or vices that, you know, are best regulated. I I'm, I'm starting to get that even though I'm, I feel deeply uncomfortable about that. I, that I disagree. Just let people gamble. I guess it's just [00:36:00] a survival of the fittest thing.

Like they're just going to fail.

Malcolm Collins: The correct thing to do is to allow the people in our future, all the temptations that we experienced today. Whether it's gambling or pornography or anything like that are going to be experienced multiplicatively by our descendants at all times. This is something you were talking about this morning, where you realized that gambling now had entered the way that stores sell toys.

The way video games reach people.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I was watching this, by the way, if you guys don't watch this, you should be watching Trixie Mattel unboxing the viral Christmas toys of every year. She's not, no, she's a, she's a cross dresser. She has, no, sorry. She's a drag queen.

Malcolm Collins: God,

Simone Collins: then if it's a drag, sorry, he's a drag queen.

He just looks so pretty. I have to, when someone looks like a beautiful, not, well, I mean, district one, capital. I wanted

Malcolm Collins: to do a whole thing on trans people looking like they lived in District 1. Yeah, but

Simone Collins: like, sorry, Trixie [00:37:00] Mattel is not, is not trans, not cross dressing, is just drag queen, but awesome drag queen.

But yeah, the theme of the Christmas unboxing of this year that Trixie Mattel did is Is toys. You don't know what you're going to get.

And I've just discovered that operate conditioning and like addictive loops and all of this has found its way now into consumer products for children. Like, it wasn't enough to have feeds and social media.

Do it now. It has to be in, like, the physical toys that people are opening because now you have to get more and you need to get that reward. And if it doesn't have the reward that you need. You know, ended up eating like 50 percent of the materials that in price that went into a toy, then what's the point?

And that's disturbing. But and I will, I see your point. Another thing that happened in the states that legalized gambling. And this took a while for the market to correct around this, but credit limits went down. And I do. I do kind of like that. So I noticed this with our kids, for example. I, after we got [00:38:00] so many kids in the house, now that we have four where I can't have an eye on all of them at all times I've discovered that I just have to be way better at childproofing things, you know, like no longer can we just make sure that they don't get into the toilet or that they don't get into certain things and make huge messes.

We have to just, Remove those as options. And I kind of like the idea of over time. We're going to have to remove various types of consumer debt from being an option because clearly people can't deal with that. And you're right. Like, to a certain extent, the market will correct around it and things are only going to get worse.

So why create through legislation, these arbitrary barriers that only prolong our actually solving the problem or learning how to deal with the addictive stimulus. That makes sense. Thanks. But I still, I just feel uncomfortable with it because I don't like the, the suffering that takes place in the interim.

Malcolm Collins: Simone, suffering is part of how [00:39:00] humanity improves itself.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but I'm a human that experiences, highly unfortunately,

Malcolm Collins: empathy. We will be able to inject these people with chemicals so they won't have to feel any pain in the near future. They're doing

Simone Collins: that already. That's why we're seeing this massive spike in marijuana consumption in general and cannabis consumption.

Because I think that is how a lot of society is enabling themselves to deal with a reality that they are dealing with. deeply unhappy with. And I very much

Malcolm Collins: support that. And genetically unable to deal with.

Speaker 32: Malcolm was right. Look,

Speaker 31: I found a way.

Malcolm Collins: Because that's, that's what's happening here.

It's, it's, we've got to understand that the selective pressure is like, okay, I am from a [00:40:00] people who lived in areas where alcohol was freely consumable for a long time. So while I consume more alcohol than other people, I also am highly, highly, highly resistant to any of the negative effects of alcohol.

And like, like, Yeah, I've only seen

Simone Collins: you, like, I can only remember one time of seeing you, like, actually really drunk.

Malcolm Collins: You too! I, I, when Simone gets drunk, what she does on the nights where she gets drunk, is she'll, she'll take out a mug, like a like you would have Just fill the mug with vodka.

Simone Collins: But that's not, that's not drunk. That's tipsy. If I want to get tipsy, we fill the mug with vodka. The one time I actually got blackout drunk, if you'll remember, it was when we went to Chicago trying to raise funds. And it turned out that investor asked us to fly out for that lunch meeting that we'd like out of pocket.

We're paying for it personally, trying to raise our search fund. And they just had lunch with us and they were like, yeah, I mean, I was never planning to invest in you. And I was just like, [00:41:00] I was so mad. And then I bought, cause we had no money. I bought two boxes of wine and I drank both of them in that Airbnb that was a loft.

Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And we didn't have a home back then or anything. We were living out of a suitcase. I think a lot of people they don't understand like how long we had nothing.

The whole thing was a hustle for so, so long. I don't know. It's still, it's

Simone Collins: still a luxury to be able to buy wine and consume them.

I had money to burn on that apparently. Not that I remember that night.

Malcolm Collins: Our YouTube channel, I think people have seen our YouTube channel for a while. They're like, Oh, They have this like super abundance mindset, which is like, even when the channel was like just starting and it was like, you know, like, I don't know, like 50 people would watch every episode there were like 10, 000 per episode or something, but we act like we're big YouTubers and stuff.

That's just the way we see things. It's the same way when we're raising money. Oh, we're going to be big

Simone Collins: and famous. It's quinetic though. [00:42:00] Like, I mean, Octavian's teacher at kindergarten couldn't believe that he had siblings. He, he I love that he has He's like,

Malcolm Collins: this kid has f*****g siblings?

Simone Collins: Yeah. He comes, he comes across like he's Joffrey from Game of Thrones.

Like he's just raised like that, even though he comes from our house. It came, it

Malcolm Collins: came, it reminds me of when I was a kid, one of my teachers came to my mom and they go your son, so this was even like in the previous generation, they're like, your son has some issues. Of like delusions. He thinks that he's gonna be king.

And and she was like, what's the problem? And she goes, you know, like king of like the planet. Why wouldn't I raise him believing that like He doesn't he doesn't think it's gonna be she's like, oh, I see you're misunderstanding You think that he's not gonna have to fight for it? No, no, no, no, no, no, no He doesn't think he's gonna be given kingship.

He thinks he's gonna have to build a coalition It's like

Simone Collins: your mom got A little too tipsy one morning, and instead of picking up like an old parenting guide, she [00:43:00] accidentally picked up Alexander the Great's biography and was like, oh, okay, so Olympia just do what? Do what she did. And, and no, she'd

Malcolm Collins: always tell me stuff like that.

She'd tell me like that she had dreams before I was born. My brother and I. We were both supposed to be, she was going to have two sons and they were going to become like incredibly important figures in human history. She said she saw like a psychic before I was born and that her first son was going to be one of the most important figures in human history.

And this is the stuff that like Olympia told Alexander. She's like, Oh, I was impregnated and like, you're going to become like the greatest man ever. I was a weaned on this stuff.

You were, you

Simone Collins: were maybe psychics are underrated though. Cause I remember when I was in college, there was some kind of Oktoberfest outside my dorm that our school put on because basically my university experience in the United States was going to like, Seven year old summer camp, but it was a university.

You know, [00:44:00] we did crafts. We painted pumpkins. I was a psychic. There was a band because that's what young adults need. But I went to the psychics. I'd never went to one before and she read my palm or something and said, You're going to be such a great parent. And I thought that was the most hilarious thing because I was never going to get married.

I was never going to have kids. I was going to get sterilized. I was so excited for it. And I'm like, ah, psychics. What a joke. This is hilarious. Goes and shows you. But no, guess who at the last laugh?

And I got friends on the other side. He's got friends on the other side.

Malcolm Collins: But

growing up, and I think this is actually really useful for young kids, growing up and understanding that they have some sort of a destiny or some sort of a thing that they're supposed to do with their life. And that it is going to be a challenge, but they are [00:45:00] expected to achieve it. It's really important.

Too many purges now. They're horrified when we hear we have expectations for our kids. They're like, Oh, no, they see

Simone Collins: it as a form of abuse. Like, how can a child live with the weight of that expectation? But here's, it's the sweetest thing. You don't see this cause you're, you're, you've been asleep for hours by that point, when I finally put the kids to bed, after we read the book, I'm going to the softest blanket in the world.

Thanks dad. I really like it. And after we then talk, you know, tell spooky stories in the dark, when they're finally ready to go to bed, the boys insist on climbing up on their ladders and then jumping onto me and giving me big hugs. But then each of them hug me and they say they love me and I say, I love them and I say, you've got to fix the world.

He's like, I'm going to fix the world. They both say they're going to fix the world. And they know that that's their job and they're excited about it. They have that sense of purpose. Like they know that That their job is to fix the world and because they love reading books about disasters and like spooky stories about terrible things happening.

They also understand what it means to fix the [00:46:00] world. Like Octavian's like, I'm going to build better buildings so that there aren't earthquakes that kill people and buildings that collapse. I'm going to, you know, get people off the planet. If the planet burns, I'm going to do it. Like he, he knows. What to do, but the, here's the great thing.

You're going to love this as he's also like, and then I'm going to get paid a lot, I'm going to make a lot of money. And I'm like, yeah, if you fix the world, people will give you a lot of money. Like it makes money to fix the world too. Cause he also wants to buy a lot of stuff, which is about making money a lot.

He's grounded. Yeah. He's, he's grounded in reality. It's not like he's some kind of savior complex. He knows he gets compensated for this work. So I think that's, that's also important. People are like, Oh, how dare you have expectations for your kids. Well, how else do you think your kids are going to be motivated to work?

Like, again, there's all these kids who are graduating and thinking, why would I bother working? Nothing's, nothing's going to change. We're not going to achieve anything. Whereas our kids are going to be like, well, I have to build. The best company. And I have to make the best solutions that actually fix the world.

And then I'm going to get so much money and I'm [00:47:00] going to buy all the stupid stuff. And, and that's good. It's healthy. It's great. We also have to, I think it's so important to teach kids also that they have to build their own companies. I think another issue is a lot of these kids are realizing. Yeah. If you get a job, it's not going to pay you enough to do anything you want to do in your life.

You have to build your own company. You have to provide your own services. You have to build your own. Legacy by actually providing real concrete value in the world. And if you have that kind of mindset, you'll make it like, we're already starting to shape Octavian's views around this. Cause he was telling you the other day, remember when we were making dinner, he's like, dad, you got to drop me off at work so I can make money.

I need to go to work today. I need to make some money. And we're like, honey. Jobs don't exist anymore because they don't love

Malcolm Collins: that. You're teaching

Simone Collins: our

Malcolm Collins: kids at a young age. Like they're not really going to feel like sad. The jobs don't exist. They're just like, yeah, I need jobs didn't exist.

Simone Collins: No parents really need to start.

I think that that is extremely urgent that parents do not [00:48:00] raise their kids to think that they're going to get jobs. And I think that's part of what's happening now is already we have a generation that's coming. To age in a world where they were told they would get jobs that would support them. And there are no jobs that will support them.

And that's

Malcolm Collins: Well, and my parents did this to me in a big way around, like, inheritance. Where I was always told, you're not going to get inheritance, you're not going to get inheritance, you're not going to Even though they knew that they were fairly wealthy, and the family was fairly wealthy, and I would probably get inheritance, but the family ended up losing all this money over dumb s**t.

And I think a lot of my cousins expected some form of inheritance and I always expected no inheritance. So you were less

Simone Collins: devastated when the

Malcolm Collins: family,

Simone Collins: you were moderately pissed. Whereas other people acted like it was the end of their lives. So that's good.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I was like, whatever. I, I thought you guys would steal this from me some way.

Anyway, I wasn't interested in playing this game. Like,

Simone Collins: you know, even the money that we do have invested. I see this a lot in. The financial audit videos I watch and the money for couples [00:49:00] episodes that I listened to and things like that, where a lot of people treat their 401ks, their retirement savings, et cetera, as money that they have, that they could use if they want to really like want to buy something.

And we just pretend it doesn't exist. And I think that's,

Malcolm Collins: you pretend like it doesn't exist. And I'd say that that's a problem and something you need to stop doing.

Simone Collins: We need to pretend. No, that doesn't exist. Simone, we have so much money on our hands. I genuinely believe that if you are not making enough money to support yourself by providing good in the world, you don't deserve that money., Listen, you can spend your money however you want, Malcolm, but I'm going to shave you for it. Just like, you know, someone can have, like Torsten, he has terrible taste. He has terrible taste. He has completely terrible taste in toys and aesthetics.

I will, you know what, you know, celebrate him, but I will give him I have, I have

Malcolm Collins: recently been splurging more of our money than I should have on stuff like children's like inflatables and stuff. I'm excited for this new one. For handling the purchase of the big tiny tots inflatable. We're going to do some, all [00:50:00] the other inflatables doing so well, the bouncy house, the indoor bouncy house, they love it.

And now I don't need to go to outdoor environments for other parents. Shame me for beating my children.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And also like where our kids are picking up more. I'm kind of like Indy's still getting over the last. Virus that the kids spread to her from wherever it is. They've most recently been playing. So I'm ready for her to, and it wasn't Octavian getting it at school because Octavian never had it.

Torsten and Titan had it. And then Indy got it.

Malcolm Collins: That's probably from them, like licking the trampolines at Sky Place. As one does. I mean, if you're

Simone Collins: not licking it, you need to. The full five senses have to be engaged in any experience. If you are between two and three years old, well, zero and three years old, I guess, you know,

Malcolm Collins: You, you are a delightful wife.

I am so happy I married you. I'm so happy that we lived this life together. I'm so happy that we passed 29, 000 subscribers [00:51:00] recently. Thank you to anyone

Simone Collins: who's subscribed. And if you find it within your heart to do us a favor, If you could leave a, that's a five star review on Apple podcasts or any place where you can leave a good review, it'd mean a lot to us because

Malcolm Collins: we're like, what, like a couple of hundred, a hundred now we have 80 reviews.

We're not even at a hundred. Yeah. I got a classmate with over a thousand reviews. Okay. He just did Mark Zuckerberg for one of his shows. Why don't I have Mark Zuckerberg on my show?

Simone Collins: Because you don't know him. I bet that guy knows him. I know

Malcolm Collins: people as famous as him. They just don't want to be seen in public with me because I'm a naughty, naughty boy in the media.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: that's true. That's the problem is your, your Stanford classmates are just so Like that, there's this You know what? It reminds me, you get freaked out by that Utah pod person LDS thing, that look. Stanford MBA grads have such, there is [00:52:00] this like pod person version of them. They have their Patagonia pullover and, or like their nondescript You know, Laura Piana sweater that you have to know what to look for to be able to identify the quality of it.

And then they're just, but they're so relaxed and laid back and perfect. And they never really say anything controversial and they smile and put you at ease. And I just, Oh, it gets really puts me on edge. Like they are not disagreeable enough. They're like just hyper competent and agreeable. I'm just saying.

Well, I'll tell

Malcolm Collins: you what, they didn't marry weird Puritan wives who live in the woods like I did. I, I think, I think I'm getting the ones who are like the Mormons and stuff and the Jews and the, the, the, the like religious conservative ones. Like when I say the Jews, I mean like the conservative religious Jews, the conservative religious Mormons.

Those are the ones who ended up the coolest.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but even they look of their kind very normal. They, they become. Oh, they're

Malcolm Collins: too normie. Oh, I [00:53:00] agree Where are the, where are the smart non normies? It's so hard to be a smart non normie in this society.

Sad. Hey, I, I got a wife with a Cambridge graduate degree now, so I got, I got the. You

Simone Collins: fixed it. It was it was one of those blemishes. You just had to pop. And then it was gone, you know, she

Malcolm Collins: means that when I married her she had a degree from GW George Washington. I was like, that's gross. I'm like actively sexually turned off by you not having an elite education.

I was like, I need to get you an education, sweetheart. Well I, cause I was, I was raised culturally. I was told to expect that whatever elite education means for the next generation. Like I'm okay with my kids not going to like Ivy league schools cause like they're going to s**t anyways. Right. But I expect them to be known as the best of the best of their generation.

Simone Collins: Yeah. What? I'm just thinking about Octavian already asking about wives and marrying. I don't know where [00:54:00] he's picking that up because we're not talking with him about it. I talked to him about, you need to get married, you need to get off. Oh, okay. So that's coming from you. Yeah. Anyway. He's like, I'm gonna marry you.

Yeah, he keeps saying, he keeps saying he's gonna marry everyone, though. I don't think he understands what marriage really is. You're like, you keep saying that he has to get married, but he doesn't. You have to first define marriage, Malcolm. Because right now, just like he's like, He doesn't understand gender.

He's like, Mom, you're fired. And I'm like, okay. Make your dinner, Octavian. Clean up your mess, Octavian. And he's like, wait a second, I what, huh? He doesn't know what so many of these words mean. You

Malcolm Collins: let your son fire you? You can't do that! You're the boss! Simone!

Simone Collins: I'm sorry, but a lot of employees are, like, basically firing their bosses these days by quiet quitting and all this other nonsense. He

Malcolm Collins: doesn't understand gender. He doesn't understand. That's the biggest problem with marriage is I, I try to explain it to him and [00:55:00] he's still not like totally like, and this is where when people are like my three year old, this kid's five and he cannot persistently tell a boy apart from

Simone Collins: a girl.

Oh yeah, no. So this concept of parents saying that their kids are trans because they haven't worked out pronouns yet. Is really abusive because our kids definitely do not get pronouns, but they are Very gender. They're very secure in their gender. There's no doubt there that is really funny. Yeah.

Oh, well.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you. Simone. I'll let you know what are we doing tonight?

Simone Collins: Do we have any turkey left? Actually, yeah, so we do have turkey left. I was thinking about shredding it with a fork and making a golden curry brick with white rice for you, but I could do something else.

Malcolm Collins: I would love that.

Golden curry turkey with fried rice would be really good.

Simone Collins: Well, maybe it'll suck. I don't know, because you didn't like how it was. It might suck, but it's new. It's new. We haven't done it before, so. Do you want sautéed onion with that or not? I'd actually be okay with fresh onion with that. Ew, no, no, no, no, no.

Trust me. Golden [00:56:00] curry brick needs sautéed onion, not fresh onion.

Malcolm Collins: Whatever you think is best, my sweetheart. Okay.

Simone Collins: This

Malcolm Collins: is the Japanese

Simone Collins: golden curry brick, right? Yeah, curry rice. The brown stuff. Brown stuff. You got the curry on this side and the rice on this side. Curry rice. You know what would be really fun for me to make one day?

It's katsu. Yeah we have the panko. I just, Like don't want to waste that much oil. Like the, the frying, maybe if they did. No,

Malcolm Collins: we used to fry foods all the time and they find out you're not supposed to use the same oil over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Oh,

Simone Collins: but Malcolm, wait, we still have your Indian spiced breaded chicken.

We have a couple more. We've like maybe one more bag of it in the deep freezer. No, we

Malcolm Collins: got to use up the existing protein first. No, no, no, we're going to, I'm just

Simone Collins: saying like next week we can try air fryer. I

Malcolm Collins: want to go to the teriyaki chicken before we go to that chicken.

Simone Collins: Fine.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I love you. Bye. Love you.

Bye.

Simone Collins: You're so funny.

Malcolm Collins: Do you have, by the way do, do that beforehand? Like, this is like something you prep for did you, by the way, [00:57:00] get the inflatable to be shipped or

Simone Collins: canceled? Yeah, no, I fixed it. I told you on WhatsApp.

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Simone Collins: wonderful. You just, you just don't pay

Malcolm Collins: attention.

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins: check WhatsApp in the morning before I get started on podcasts.

There's just no

Simone Collins: way for me to reach you. You're like, send it to me in an email. You don't read it. You talk to

Malcolm Collins: Google. You say, Hey Google,

Simone Collins: I did

Malcolm Collins: the thing. And then, and then, yeah,

Simone Collins: I'm screaming it to avoid. I never hear back.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll figure this out. You can tell I live in the same house as you.

You know that, right? Then I

Simone Collins: would have to like walk across our vast house from my wing to your wing. And I'm not ready for that kind of physical exertion. It's

Malcolm Collins: too cold. You're not even pregnant right now, Simone. This is ridiculous. I'm preparing,

Simone Collins: getting in character. I'm a method pregnant.

Malcolm Collins: You're always so excited when you're [00:58:00] pregnant.

Like it's like your natural state. I know. I'm so excited for it. It's going to be great. Anyway. Okay. So I'll get started.

Speaker 33: Show me what that is. What is that? Um, it's my paper airplane sign. And this is made out of paper. And right there, there's a lot of paper airplanes I can sell. Okay, so you're going to go outside and you're going to show people your paper airplane sign. Yes, well I'm going to do that in two days because it's cold out there.

That makes sense. And um, when people see your paper airplanes and your paper airplane sign, they're going to give you money. Okay. Um, yes, I'm making money. And what are you going to do with the money? Um, I'm going to buy a remote control ball with it. Like anything. Yeah! I want a remote control ball! You want a remote control ball?

Yeah. It's a silly [00:59:00] thing to want. Oh! Why I love you, Octavian. This is my paper airplane so everybody knows I'm my mom. Hey, Octavian, I really like how much agency you're showing here. You wanted something, we said you needed money to do it, so you came up with a plan to make money. Yes! What are you doing jumping on me?

What are you doing? Oh! You're silly. Gah!

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone discuss Scott Alexander's review of 'The Rise of Christianity.' They explore how Christianity spread rapidly in its early days, challenging common beliefs about widespread conversions driven by miracles. Instead, factors such as higher fertility rates among Christians, effective social networks, and the appeal of Christianity's treatment of women played crucial roles. The episode delves into the socio-cultural context of ancient Rome, comparisons with modern cult movements, and the implications for both historical understanding and contemporary religious dynamics.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone! Today we are going to be discussing a very interesting piece, Scott Alexander's review of The Rise of Christianity.

And in it, he goes through how Christianity spread as fast as it did, it is astounding how quickly Christianity was able to spread in its early days. And it was not through the, tactic that most people think, which is widespread conversions based on either miracles or just the logic of what was in the text.

Instead, it appears to have mostly been downstream of Christians having more children, having more surviving children. And having an ability to convert women at a much higher rate in the early days.

But the children, childbirth appears to be the core of this. Also, their plague surviving rates appear to have been quite different. So we're going to go over each of these in turn.

Speaker: [00:01:00] In ancient Rome, where altars shone, the pagan gods once ruled alone. But quietly came a faithful breed Not through big signs, but with small seed They gathered in humble prayer No sweeping crowds or mass fanfare They built their homes with children glad More babes they bore than pagans had

Malcolm Collins: The challenge Well, Andy,

Simone Collins: even the Christianity seemed to have spread through the kindling of Judaism, which had already spread, which is also fascinating.

It's just such a cool

Malcolm Collins: overview. Yeah. The challenge with any Scott Alexander piece is he writes In a way, we're typically when we're reading a piece, we are throwing out 90 percent of it. This time we're keeping probably well over 80 percent of it with a number of factual and textual additions because there's a few minor errors [00:02:00] he makes.

And there are a few areas where I just happen to for whatever reason know additional information that helps flesh things out a lot.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's fun. Because what I love most about Scott Alexander's book reviews is you get a great summary of the book, then you get additional research and annotation from Scott Alexander, and now I'm getting layer three from Malcolm.

This is like tiramisu now, you know, first you start with the muffin and then you get a cupcake and now I'm getting, whoa, man, this is great. Let's

Malcolm Collins: go

Simone Collins: into it.

Malcolm Collins: All right, dive in.

Simone Collins: Scott Alexander writes, The rise of Christianity is a great puzzle. In 40 AD, there were maybe a thousand Christians. Their messiah had just been executed, and they were on the wrong side of an intercontinental empire that had crushed all previous foes.

By 400, they were 40 million, and they were set to dominate the next millennium of Western history. Imagine taking a time machine to the year 2300 AD, and everyone is a Scientologist. The United States is over 99 percent [00:03:00] Scientologist. So is Latin America and most of Europe. The Middle East follows some heretical pseudo Scientology that thinks L.

Ron Hubbard was a great prophet, but maybe not the greatest prophet. This can only begin to capture how surprised the early Imperial Romans would be to learn of the triumph of Christianity. At least Scientology has a lot of money and cutthroat recruitment arm. At least they fight back when you persecute them.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so I think that this is all really important to note because a lot of people do not realize how quickly Christianity basically came out of nowhere from a small persecuted group that was not seen as particularly different during Jesus's lifetime than other small, roaming Thaumatological Performing Rabbis. So, quick note here if you don't know what I'm talking about. Thaumatological performances is a type of magical performance, which is like a miracle working as a magic trick. It was [00:04:00] really common for random rabbis to roam around and perform these types of miracles.

You know, you have like the circle drawer, you have the, I'll add a few in post here.

You have Hani bond. Doza. , who performed numerous miracles, including making vinegar burn like oil for Shabbat candles. When his daughter mistakenly use vinegar instead of oil. He also extended the links of beams for a woman's house through blessing. Additionally, he was known for controlling rain with his prayers. He wants prayed for rain to stop while he was traveling and it ceased immediately. You have Honi the circle drawer. He is famous for his miracle of praying for rain during a severe drought in Israel, he drew a circle and the dust stood inside it and vowed not to leave until God sent rain. Initially only I liked drizzle fell, prompting him to pray again for more substantial rain.

Ultimately God answered his prayers with a heavy downpour Shimon bar Yochai., he. Performed healing miracles. And.

It was said that he could burn people with his gaze. One notable miracle involved the emperor's daughter who was possessed and he was called to help her. Additionally, [00:05:00] during this time in a cave, He and his son were miraculously sustained by carob tree and a Sprig of water. After emerging from the cave, it was reported that everything looked at a world burnt to ashes. Indicating his extraordinary spiritual. Power.

I say this because I think it actually undermines the amazing growth of the early Christian community. To overstate how unique Jesus would have appeared to people of his time.

And I would note here, the point I am not making is that all of these other miracle workers actually performed their miracles. But what I am saying is that it was widely believed that they had, so if me a random person around this time had a group of people come to me and say, Hey, there was this rabbinic miracle worker, and here are some of the miracles he performed.

I'd be like, yeah, a guy told me about another one yesterday. And a guy told me about a different one the day before., Like it wouldn't have been unique.

and people can be like, well, you know, he raised people from the dead. That was totally unique. And it's like, well, not really.

[00:06:00] If you go to the old Testament, for example, the widow of Zarephath son raised by Elijah, the prophet, the shin termite woman's son raised by

Elijah successor. , and then from the new Testament you have Thomasa Dorcas raised by the apostle Peter. , you have YouTube Chris raised by the apostle Paul. , so that again, if you over emphasize, like, if Abe, if Jesus was just this amazing guy that nobody could possibly deny in everyone who saw him was immediately like, yeah, I'm on board with this, you've changed everything. , this story actually becomes a little less remarkable because it's like, oh, well, that's why it's spread.

But when you realize that. Within the context of his time, Jesus would not have been that different for many of the other people in the region who had followings. , it becomes absolutely amazing how quickly it grew and a miracle that is. In fact, I think a bigger miracle than many of the miracles that Jesus has reported to have, Carried out and a miracle that it is much harder for a secular [00:07:00] person to deny.

But to give you an idea of.

How undifferentiated Jesus was from other walking you know, random Thaumatological performances we have recorded in the Bible pretty miraculously What a random traveling magician would think of Jesus, in the story of Simon Magos Whereas Simon Magos sees Jesus. He is a sorcerer a a basically I mean unless you think that there were random like actual sorcerers in the area at the time he was a magician And he saw what Jesus was doing and he said, Hey, can I buy that trick from you?

And Jesus got really mad about it. You know, but the point being is that we know we have, we have the answer to the question. If a random magician saw Jesus, what would he think? He would think he was a magician.

To put it. In other words, the types of.

Belmont to logical beat Jesus was performing. We're not seen as uniquely spectacular or out of place when contrasted with the type of feeds performed by traveling magicians.

Of that time period in that region it's actually incredibly [00:08:00] important from a theological perspective because it removes any validation given to Jesus's claims by his miracle work and the claims and the growth of the movement have to provide the validity themselves, which I think is a higher form of validity than I believe it because the guy performed miracles. , also here.

I would note if you haven't read the infancy gospel of Thomas or studied it. ,

it's a non-canonical gospel where it's like, well, what if you had all the magical powers of Jesus, but you were a kid and didn't have a lot of self-control. How might he have used them during that time period?

, and it comes off a lot, like this, get.

Speaker 4: No, David Blaine, no. I'm

Speaker 2: what'd you buy?

Speaker 4: Uh, I bought a green sweater, if you want to know. Okay, I bought a green sweater.

Speaker 5: Interesting. Are you sure you didn't buy a teddy bear?

Speaker 4: Yes, I'm sure I didn't. Teddy bear? What the eff? How did you? How? Where's my sweater?

David Blaine. David Blaine. He bought a green sweater, okay? You're being mean. You're being stupid. Where is it? Look at your effing [00:09:00] body right now, Peter.

What the eff, how the hell? I was holding things! Did you feel anything? Thanks, you stretched it out probably, thank you. Please, please, stop it. I don't want to wear it right now. Please stop. I don't even want to wear it yet.

Speaker 3: Hey, what are you drinking? I'm drinking orange soda. Ooh, big whoop.

Speaker 4: Hey, what else is orange? What else is orange? I don't know. Cheez Its? Cheez Its! What the? Cheez Its! F**k! What the? Where's my orange soda?

It's orange soda in my mouth! What the F? You put it in my mouth! What the F? How did you get it in my mouth? Please stop, you demon!

Malcolm Collins: And he, so, so the, Oh, and he was, there

Simone Collins: was a type. It was, it was, He was a common, the, the Great Courses series on the historical Jesus aka Wonderium describes Jesus as an apocalyptic Jew in an age where there were lots of apocalyptic Jews just kind of walking around and preaching.

It might be akin [00:10:00] to like seeing a life coach today.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we know this because of like the Dead Sea Scrolls community, which was around the same time period a bit before, but was also, a group of apocalyptic Jews. Sorry, apocalyptic Jews means Jews who think the world is about to end not end exactly, but enter the next phase of existence and that they are coming to bring this.

And many of Christ's early followers believed that his second coming was going to happen soon. Within their lifetimes. We can see this in the letters. Where I think it's Paul writing to a group who's like, some of our members are dying before the Messiah comes. Like, what are we supposed to do?

And he goes, oh, well, their bodies will be raised. But the fact that they were worried about dying before the Messiah comes showed that they, like, Rose from the dead again shows that they saw that as an anathema. That as a weird thing.

That this was a common belief in the early church. You can see in things like Paul's letter to the Thessaloniki. , where he says, [00:11:00] quote, for this, we declare to you by the word of the Lord that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord by no means precede. Those who have died for the Lord himself with a cry or. Of command with arc angels call and was the sounds of God's trumpet will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet with the Lord in the air. Therefore, encourage one another with these words in quote.

So you can see very clearly here. He says, that we who are alive. And he's talking about the people who are listening to him or reading this letter are going to experience the second coming of Christ. , as to why he would think this, well, you just need to look at Christ's own words. Matthew 24 30 to 31, mark 13, 26, 27. And Luke 2127 to 28. , where Jesus states quote, truly, I tell you this generation in quote, meaning his contemporaries will not pass away [00:12:00] until all these things have come to take place in quote Matthew 24 34, mark. 1330 Luke, 2132.

I am here. Not trying to point out that the Bible is wrong or something. I think that they misinterpreted these words that said, I don't think that they were stupid for misinterpreting these words. And I'm just pointing out here that it was a common belief in the early church that Jesus was going to come back before. Within their generation and they weren't stupid for having this belief.

And this becomes even more powerful when you look at the spread of Christianity, because it makes even less sense. It becomes even more miraculous when you see that. Early wrong beliefs in the early Christian Church did not invalidate its rapid growth.

So you've got to think about what Jesus's group was. The followers of Jesus who keep in mind, we believe we're actually true and correct and everything like that.

But I don't think that they were I'm very different from your average modern Christian who thinks that like anyone who saw what Jesus was doing would immediately have known he was the [00:13:00] Messiah. I don't think that there's other times in the Bible when we see people raise people from the dead, everything like that.

I think that. Only a, a, a truly because he just didn't have a big crowd when he died. He didn't have a ton of followers when he died. If you saw somebody perform these like absolutely undeniable feats of magic and you're like, okay, this person is definitely the son of God. You're not going to turn your back on them just because the government is prosecuting them.

And you can be like, oh, well, you know, it was Rome. Like, what would people really go through for the Messiah against Rome? And we're going to get to that in a second. People were willing to be devoured by lions for Jesus. People were willing to have horrible things happen to them under the Roman Empire for Jesus.

And yet, the crowd that Jesus had built around him, who actually saw the things that he did during his life, weren't Willing to rebuke him almost immediately the moment he came under fire of the empire. So the point that I'm saying is that this was originally a very sort of small [00:14:00] group a, a group that was not particularly differentiated from other groups in, in the period.

And that's true differentiation came from it. Super fast, gross. And I also love the, the crazy L Ron Hubbard thing when he's like, imagine not only are like 99 percent of America, North America, Scientologists, but the Middle East is like, well, you know, L Ron Hubbard was wrong, but he was one of the greatest prophets in human history.

And you're like, what, how did that happen in just 300 years?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and again, Scientologists have it so much easier slash are doing so much better than early Christians, right? They're, they're not being fed to lions, for example. They have lawyers that, that scare people. It's it's, it's very different.

Malcolm Collins: So very interesting. Yeah, my read is

that

when Jesus died, he may have had 50 followers. Like really?

Simone Collins: Maybe more. I mean, there were crowd issues. You know, when he came to certain cities, I think Roman officials were a little concerned about [00:15:00] him.

Malcolm Collins: There were crowd issues, but here is my read on the 50 followers thing.

Okay. If you had a traveling miracle worker and healer of which we know there were many during that period You would likely get crowd issues when they went to a random town or something like that That doesn't mean that they all followed him They may have wanted healing and they went to the last miracle worker for healing.

And they went to him for healing. They may have liked it. This guy was handing out bread and fish and wine in his event. I'm sure

Simone Collins: like if Greta Thunberg walked into Berlin or something, you know, she would form dangerous crowds as well.

Malcolm Collins: People came to the moment the government turned against him, the fact that he didn't have some big crowd, like speak out or prevent this or even just go remove him from the freaking cross.

To me, that's, that's always been pretty He must not have had a really sizable community.

Speaker 6: Your family arrived then. , I have been asked to read the following prepared statement are we, do hereby convey our sincere greetings on this, the occasion of your martyrdom.

What?

Simone Collins: Well, the rules are the [00:16:00] rules. I don't know what to tell you.

Malcolm Collins: That's like Jesus. I see you're on the cross. I know like probably bit a group and get you down. But I don't want to risk it.

Simone Collins: We're outnumbered.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Okay. Did not go for a few tables.

Simone Collins: So,

Speaker 6: And I'd just like to add my own admiration for what you're doing , at what must be, after all, for you, a very difficult time.

Speaker 7: You

b******s!

Simone Collins: He continues, previous authorities assumed Christianity spread through giant mass conversions may be fueled by miracles. Partly they thought this because the biblical book of Acts describes some of these, but partly they thought it because how else do you go from a thousand people to forty million people in less than four hundred years?

Stark answers. Steady, exponential growth. Suppose you start with 1, 000 Christians in 40 AD. It's hard to number the first few centuries worth of early Christians. They're too small to leave much evidence. But by 300 AD, [00:17:00] before Constantine, they were a sizable enough faction of the empire that some historians have tentatively suggested a 10 percent population share.

That would be about 6 million people. From 260 years implies a 40 percent growth rate per decade.

Stark finds this plausible because it's the same growth rate as the Mormons, 1880 to 1980. If you look at the Mormons entire history since 1830, they actually grew a little faster than the early Christians.

Malcolm Collins: That is, I think, absolutely a fascinating point. That is, because it shows that,

Simone Collins: like, it could be. It could very well be. I mean, their growth rate still isn't great right now, but if Mormons managed to pass through, as you put it, the Trial of the Lotus Eaters. They could be the next main faction of Christians.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, actually and that they're growing faster than the early Christians. Exactly. We say that, like, when I'm looking at, like, why do I believe Christ had a divinely inspired message. It is because of the efficaciousness of his [00:18:00] message and the speed of growth of his message. And a lot of people I think are surprised that we consider the Mormons as one of the true face.

We believe there's multiple sort of like in a four dimensional space, like you, you can't try to reconcile them on this earth, but in some way, if you had a broader understanding, you could reconcile them. And we consider Mormons as one of them, and a lot of people are very surprised at that given how small a community they are right now.

But given that we're very forwards looking it makes a lot of sense that we would do that if you look at their growth rate and other similarities that he's going to point out to the Mormons today of the early Christian community. But I also find it interesting that this, as we wrote in the Pragmatist Guide to Crafting Religion, can mostly be explained by higher fertility rates and not by conversions.

Conversions are, in a historic context, fairly rare.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: Each brand new life, a living call. That soon outgrew. The pagan, [00:19:00] no grand crusade in streets of stone, no golden flags or trumpets blown yet countless children won the fight and pagan ways. Soon lost their mind, they didn't conquer hearts by force, or cast the shrines in sudden course.

They simply grew in numbers, see, the cradle was their victory.

Simone Collins: Instead of being forced to attribute the Christian's growth to miracles, we can pin down a specific growth rate and find that it falls within the range of the most successful modern cults. Indeed, if we look at this, as each existing Christian having to convert 0.

4 new people on average per decade, it starts to sound downright doable. Still, how did the early Christians maintain this conversion rate over [00:20:00] so many generations? Through the social graph! This is another of Stark's findings, from his work with the Moonies. That's so interesting. The first Moonie in America was a Korean missionary named Jung Un Kim, who arrived in 1959.

Her first convert was her landlady. The next two were the Landlady's friends. Then came the Landlady's friends husbands, and the Landlady's friends, husband's, coworkers. That was when Stark showed up. Quote, at the time I arrived, dot, dot, dot, to study them, the group had never succeeded in attracting a stranger, end quote.

Stark theorized that, quote, the only people who joined were those whose interpersonal attachments to members overbalanced their attachments to non members, end quote. I don't think this can be literally correct. Taken seriously, this implies that the second convert would have no other friends except the first, which would prevent her from spreading the religion further.

But something like Quote, your odds of converting are your number of moony friends divided by your number of non [00:21:00] moony friends, unquote, seems to fit his evidence. History confirms this story. Muhammad's first convert was his wife, followed by his cousin, servant, and friend. Joseph Smith's first converts were his brothers, friends, and lodgers.

Indeed, in spite of the Mormons celebrated door knocking campaign, their internal data shows that only one in a thousand door knocks results in a conversion, but quote, when missionaries make their first contact with a person in the home of a Mormon friend or relative of that person, This results in conversion 50 percent of the time end quote people sometimes accused

Malcolm Collins: one before we go further here I will know we actually did further data on this in the pragmatist guide to crafting religion I'd say that it's much lower than one in a thousand results in a convert The way that they mark conversion is pretty shady.

They're like do a And keep in mind, when you're in other countries, sometimes people will convert to like, use the Mormon facilities because they basically got like YMCA setups in other countries, where it's like, oh, I want to play soccer at the Mormon facility, I just say I'm a convert. But if you actually look at the [00:22:00] increase in tithing members, it is completely trivial, that Mormons are not converting large populations.

At least not anymore, maybe they were historically, but it seems to me now that the reason for this Particular Mormon ritual is that it makes it very hard for an individual who has gone through it to deconvert because they have sort of this sunk cost fallacy along with what's the word disassociation?

not disassociation when you, when, when, when something doesn't align with what you believe about the world. Like if you have to go and try to convince somebody dissonance, cognitive dissonance. Yeah. If you have to go and try to convince a bunch of random strangers about something you've pretty much made up your mind about that.

Like if you get through your mission trip and you're still a Mormon at the end of it, you're likely going to stay a Mormon throughout your entire life. Almost all of the Mormon de convert stories I hear, they started de converting during their mission trip or before. So it's more about actually maintaining [00:23:00] the existing members and reaffirming their dedication to the faith than it is about getting converts.

That is not me saying that mission trips are pointless. This is me saying that mission trips actually serve a different function.

Simone Collins: It kind of weeds out the religiously weak.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: Non committed. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But it also helps increase the status of individuals who are willing to put in more for their religion to the point where almost everyone goes on a mission trip.

Like you, you have sort of a what can I say, like a faithfulness inflation problem within Mormonism where you have increasing things like that that you need to do to be a successful candidate on the market for a spouse because many wives won't seriously consider you if you haven't been on a mission trip.

Which I find really fascinating. Now there are numbers about how easy it is to convince, convert a Mormon who has like one Mormon friend, that that works 50 percent of the time. That also seems laughable. There's no way, there's no way that if a Mormon relative or they're going to convert 50 percent of the time a Mormon talks to them, that they must mean like of all Mormons talk to them or [00:24:00] all Mormons hound them.

Mormonism would just be spreading way more fastly if that was happening.

Simone Collins: Yeah, maybe something's off there, but. I do think that being embedded in Mormon, Mormon culture is infectious. Like if my family weren't somehow resistant to cults, I'm sure I would be Mormon because they're so great. But we are,

Malcolm Collins: sorry, you mean resistant to cults and that her family likes going to when my favorite quotes from her dad, I was like, you know, this is a cult.

Like, why are you going to it? Like this could be like really dangerous to you because, Oh, don't worry about me joining a cult. I've joined tons over the course of my life and that doesn't make me feel better. So rather than resistant to cults, they dip into cults and dip out of cults.

Simone Collins: No, we just, no, but we never joined.

Like that's our problem. Yeah, he never

Malcolm Collins: officially joined. Yeah. Anyway, This next part is actually a footnote that he had here, but I thought it was pretty relevant.

Simone Collins: People sometimes accuse modern social movements like environmentalism, [00:25:00] MAGA, wokeness, rationalism, etc. of being cults. But as far as I know, this rule doesn't apply to them.

Most people in these movements get involved by stumbling across a philosophy online and finding that it rings true. It seems to me like these modern movements are more likely to make unique and interesting claims about the world that could attract or repel certain types of people, whereas most cults are pretty similar.

This one guy is God, he commands you to chant. a bunch and give him money, but there's a holy book saying we want world peace. I wonder if this should actually be a counter to cultishness accusations. Quote, we can't be a cult, cults always spread through the social graph, but we learned about this movement from a blog.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So first of all, that is not how EA spreads anymore. Mostly spreads through like honey pots and stuff like that. It's like, Oh, don't you want to go to this like sex party or something? That's how, like, I, like when I first [00:26:00] heard about EA, I actually remember it was less wrong the first time I heard about it.

And he's like, well, I'm inviting you to this party. At like scorpion tarantula house or something like that. It was called. You should probably read some like less wrong posts on this blog before you come so you have a broad idea of what's going on Oh,

Simone Collins: that sounds very

Malcolm Collins: cultish. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, you know, you know who was running the house.

No Divya no way wow so, I was I was going to you know, one of these parties and it was Very clear that like A lot of people went because there were more women at these events than other Silicon Valley events.

Simone Collins: Oh, well, it's very hard to find events with more women at them in Silicon Valley.

So that is,

Malcolm Collins: And EA and Let's Wrongism mostly spread through Silicon Valley group houses first, which had a really tight knit social graph for spreading. So one, I'm going to say, I don't know if he's completely wrong about this, but I'd also note something that I think that he's missing in all of this.

[00:27:00] Christianity. Mormonism a lot of the major world religions actually did not spread because of their founding member. You typically had a founding member, whether it's Christianity or Mormonism, who Or even

Simone Collins: Confucianism, right? I mean, it wasn't him in the end.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, who started what was a fairly small movement that was seen as extreme and Plato, Socrates.

Yeah. Actually, this really, yeah. Maybe a little weird by the society around them. And then you have your Brigham Young type P figure

In Christianity, this would be Paul, the apostle.

who really actually did the mass conversions in the early days and set up something that could eventually become a mainstream religion.

And I think this is why Scientology isn't going to become a mainstream religion because the person who it passed the baton onto has been pretty much entirely let's say, Exploitative, like, just try to milk his position for all [00:28:00] it's worth and not really try to set up an intergenerational tradition.

So it's, yeah, it's

Simone Collins: the second, it's the second person to take the baton who needs to set up that 40 percent annual conversion rate. And it seems as though Scientology has not managed that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so like if the techno Puritan tradition ends up working out, which by the way, now is a legal religion in the United States, we got us registered with the Fed.

We have converts now as well. With the IRS,

Simone Collins: with the IRS.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry, the IRS we have converts now, which is fun as well in the EA community, of course and that is really exciting to me because if we can spread, I think within the EA community is like we're, we're, we're going to spread the most similar to like how the Jews went out and got people ready.

And then the The, the which you'll hear here and then the Christians did a job sort of hitting it home and converting it. But I found this to be a very interesting point that I think can be elucidated with the idea that typically you have a [00:29:00] founder of a religion and then you have the person who really solidifies it and begins the mass conversions.

All right, continue.

Simone Collins: All right. This theory of social graph based conversion was controversial when Stark proposed it, because if you ask cultists retrospectively, they'll usually say they were awed by the beauty of the sacred teachings, but Stark says

quote, I knew better, because we had met them well before they had learned to appreciate the doctrines, before they had learned how to testify to their faith, back when they were not seeking faith at all. Indeed, we could remember, When most of them regarded the religious beliefs of their new set of friends is quite odd.

I recall one who told me that he was puzzled that such nice people could get so worked up about some guy in Korea, then one day he got worked up about this guy too.

Malcolm Collins: That's wild. But I, I like this. I mean, I think it shows that this thing where you're like, I just [00:30:00] converted because I saw the light.

That's not really the way it works. It's like you're in a community and the community talks about it. And then that ends up converting you over time.

Simone Collins: Yeah, you join for the lifestyle and then you start drinking the Kool Aid. And you see this even with brands. Maybe you get an iPhone and then five years later you're obsessed.

You buy a ton of Apple stock. This happens a lot with, I think, With Tesla related stuff then suddenly you have Starlink, then suddenly, you know, it just, it goes, there are these, these deepenings of affiliation and faith that people fall into, not just with regard to religion, but with regards to brands and other things as well, social communities too, you know, being goth, whatever, right?

Okay, so Scott Alexander continues from here. Jews were scattered across the Mediterranean even before the fall of the Temple. I don't know why. We Jews tell ourselves that we left Israel only after the Romans kicked us out, but Stark cites plenty of historians who argue that no, it was well before that.

Around the time of [00:31:00] Christ, there were a million Jews in Israel and five million in the Diaspora, especially Alexandria, Antioch, Anatolia and Rome. What were these Jews spiritual views like? Without hard evidence, Stark supposes they were marginal.

Throughout history, Jews have succeeded at keeping the law only within tight knit communities. If you want to keep kosher, it helps to have everyone around you keeping kosher and a local kosher butcher. If you want to keep the Sabbath, it helps to have an eruv and a synagogue within walking distance. But even more than that, the law is strange and complicated, and unless everyone around you follows it too, you are likely to slip.

Thus, when Jews were first emancipated and allowed to live among Gentiles in the 18th and 19th centuries, a split emerged in the Jewish community. Those Jews who stayed in the ghettos and shuttles or who founded new self imposed quasi ghettos like Crown Heights remained Orthodox. Those Jews who mingled with the Gentiles and cast off the more difficult rules became [00:32:00] Reform.

Only a sliver of modern Orthodox remained in the middle, often with abysmal attrition rates.

Malcolm Collins: This I think is a very good point about this form of religion, which is typically why we design techno puritanism to be a clan based religion instead of the form of religion, which is to say it's something that is practiced internally was in families, which a large degree of variation.

So that your family is the core unit of your tradition and not your church, not your synagogue, not your community. While that leads to lower amounts of conversions, it leads to a higher fertility rate as you can see was clan based versus non clan based traditions. And it allows for more ideological diversity within the movement, which makes it more rich in terms of conversations and stuff like that.

Well, I think this also

Simone Collins: exemplifies how hard it is to maintain a hard culture when hard culture requires [00:33:00] a ton of amenities and not family based. Systems, so you can't be a hard culture Jew and just move to some random city in Switzerland, you know, it has to be, it has to meet all these requirements and that makes it very tough to maintain a hard culture, but also deal with a rapidly evolving and adapting world job market, etc.

Malcolm Collins: Absolutely. Techno puritanism is at its core, a frontier religion.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's interesting. There are frontier religions and there are civilization religions. And I'm sure part of the, the, the, the cumbersome requirements of maintaining Jewish law are a feature, not a bug in that it's easier to maintain

Malcolm Collins: urban centers.

It

Simone Collins: also forces them to state, to stick together rather than spread out into the diaspora, because They'll sort of fall off and not continue, you know? Yeah. [00:34:00] You want me to keep going? Okay Reform Judaism is unstable. The law of Moses is central to the Jewish faith. Relax it too much, and believers can justly wonder what's left.

In America, Reform Jews are overrepresented not only among atheists and agnostics, but among every cult under the sun. 33 percent of American Buddhists come from a Jewish background.

Malcolm Collins: Keep going, 2. 5 percent of the American population is Jewish as you read these stats. Keep going.

Simone Collins: And even the Moonies were 30 percent Jewish at one point.

They're now down to 6%. As the Jews were assimilating into Greeks, Some Greeks were assimilating into Judaism. They were impressed enough with monotheism and the Jews upright behavior to adopt some of the rituals, but they couldn't take the final step and circumcise themselves. Instead, they hung around the fringes of Jewish society, admiring it from without.

The Bible and the historical record call them God fearers, but by analogy, I can't help but thinking, [00:35:00] thinking of them as we are Jews. This is similar to

Malcolm Collins: weeaboos

Simone Collins: from Japanese admirers. Yeah, I love this. These weird Jews would have been very easy prey for the first semi Jewish sect to shed the circumcision requirement and explicitly pivot away from being an ethnic religion.

The apostles and any other early Christians leaving Palestine to minister to the wider world. Wait, hold on,

Malcolm Collins: we'll do a quick, I want to, talk about this last thing here.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So I find this interesting in a few areas here. One is, is I was unaware that, that reformed Jews just did these deconversions so much.

Or that they were so well

Simone Collins: represented in cults, but no, come on, you did, because they are a soft culture and soft culture is basically not culture. You know,

Malcolm Collins: apparently they're like the softest of all soft cultures. Well, no, they're just uniquely well, I think we can learn a few things from this, right?

Okay. Which is one Judaism doesn't work. If you don't do it a hundred percent, [00:36:00] you cannot do 50 percent Judaism. You cannot do 75 percent Judaism. You have to do a hundred percent Judaism and that means living in a Jewish community. That's what he's pointing out here. You need to get a wise yourself. If you want to maintain your traditions, number two, if we, as a techno Puritan tradition are looking for early converts, you can look to reform Jewish communities.

Because apparently they're much easier to convert than other traditions. And I think that honestly, our religion is really appealing to somebody from one of those communities. As people know, like, early on, I was, like, much more Jewish leaning in my beliefs, like, oh, maybe some of my kids could convert to Judaism, because they're technically Jews, because of Simone's background and everything like that, and go through all the traditions in regards to that.

But as I begin to dive more into religious history I came more and more to the position that, unfortunately, Christianity is just such a [00:37:00] Evolution above Judaism. That you, it really makes very little sense to go back to Judaism unless you're just looking for something that has a really long history.

Or you have a very strong ethnic or cultural, our family connection to the religion.

Like if that's the core thing you're looking for, then fine. But outside of that it lacks a lot of the features that Christianity has.

To word it differently. Well, it is a more complicated religion. By complicated. I mean, it's like the amount of texts and rules in history that you have is definitely larger within the Jewish Canon.

It's complicated in the same way. A very bloated, a source code might be complicated. , where you could almost argue that Christianity and Judaism. , written using two different programming languages and the programming language that Christianity uses is much simpler and requires far fewer words or lines to create the [00:38:00] same outcome as the source code that Judaism is using. , which makes me gravitate really strongly to Christianity. , and many of you add a techno Puritan framing on it.

It even. Lighter as a source code, because basically everything boils down to the question of what would people in the future want me to be doing today, , which is just such a simple question to ask yourself when deciding on moral framings.

Well also being a very easy to argue. Why would you be basing your moral framings around this mindset instead of having to brace your mole framing around giant lists of rules? Or. A God that can sometimes be difficult to interpret.

And we're going to get to a point here, which Scott Alexander misses.

But that I point out, it is clear to the Jewish community that it lacks all of this which is when Christ like figures appear throughout history Judaism has had a big problem with like all of a sudden all the Jews want to leave. And we're going to talk about a time in the 1700s when this [00:39:00] happens.

Sorry. I meant the 16 hundreds. I was thinking of Shabbaton Zebbie and we go into this. , great detail later in this particular episode. , but to put it another way, the particular source code update that Christ was trying to push to Judaism.

Has been pushed by a few other people throughout Judaism's history.

And every time somebody tries to push a source code update that looks like this, it gains a lot of fanfare.

Wow.

Yeah, I think that Jews today see Christ as a more antithetical figure to actual Judaism than a natural evolution to Judaism, which has happened a few times throughout Judaism's history. And I'd actually argue that the founder of Hasidic Judaism basically a Christ like figure who didn't claim to be the Messiah, but made very similar updates to older Jewish systems.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Okay. Very interesting.

Okay. The apostles and other early Christians leaving Palestine to minister to the [00:40:00] wider world would have made use of existing Jewish networks and connections. They would have found themselves in the middle of the spiritually disaffected half assimilated pseudo reform Jewish communities of the Roman world.

Plus they're half assimilated the other direction. Greek hangers on. They would have preached that Judaism was basically true, but that you can drop the restrictive law of Moses and avoid getting circumcised. They would have sliced through the cultural angst of these in between communities, saying that Jews would join together with the Gentiles in a big friendly tent under the leadership of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Here, says Stark, were the early Christians first a few million converts. And that, that, I think, to me, is Underrated than the things you mentioned in the beginning, how there was basically kindling lying all throughout the area that the spark of Jesus was able to light a fire, you know, that there was a lot [00:41:00] of groundwork already done and you have to, when you're looking at how an early culture or religion is going to spread, consider whether or not there will be a receptive substrate surrounding its original, original ignition or catalyst.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that people may misunderstand how. Weak paganism was as a tradition. And we can actually see this with the creation of the soul and victus God by the Roman emperor. That was coming for a period. Or the elevation of the soul and victus God, which is to say that. Paganism isn't really a religion in the way that we think of religion today.

You can't really like love and form a relationship with these gods. They are not all powerful gods. They are like, like there is a market demand or they product market fit for monotheism that people want. And a lot of people living alongside Jews, a lot of Pagans who did would have said, Oh, they have a real religion.

We don't have a real religion.

Which [00:42:00] is where, for people who don't know Sol Invictus this was a god made by I'll add the Roman Emperor's name in post, where he really elevated it and he Asclebius, I want to say

Emperor a Rulien. If I were thinking of, and they should note here that

He didn't popularize the Sol Invictus celebration. Until around 270 to 275 80, which was well after the dates for Christ's birth had been determined

Slash made up. It was mostly based on symbolism.

by early Christian theologians. A lot of people got angry at that video when I pointed that out and they're like, no, Christmas. Definitely got it to date from a Roman holiday.

And I'm like, which one? And they're like, well, the Sol Invictus is the one that had the same one. And I'm like, that was set after. , we have the first inscriptions of when people thought crisis birth date was. And then they were like, oh, well, what about Saturdays? And I'm like, Saturday nearly has a different date.

You can't just claim any group that had a holiday that was vaguely in the winter where the predecessor to any [00:43:00] other holiday, vaguely in the, in the winter, you know, there were

Roman

holidays that were vaguely in every season.

And they're like, well, , this Saturnalia has some of the same practices, like a present giving and I'm like present giving didn't start until like the 18 hundreds and Christmas. Are you saying that people in the 18 hundreds had memories of Saturnalia. No, obviously not.

And in fact we'd happen to know exactly why the tradition of gift-giving started for Christmas. It was taken from a different Christian holiday, which used to be celebrated on January 6th. Again, not the date of any Roman celebration called Saint Nicholas Day. Which was combined with the Christmas day to convert a kind of a new holiday. , in the 19th century,

so weird. That's such like a religiously ingrained belief that people got so mad when I pointed out that Christmas. Has very little connection to any of the pagan stuff.

If you're unaware of this and you still believe this urban legend,

Because it is actually one that I used to believe.

, so I [00:44:00] understand how an educated person could come to believe. it. If they hadn't gone into researching it.

you should check out that video.

The receipts are in numerous.

But anyway, topic at hand back to Seoul, Invictus, the God that was introduced in around, , 270 CE to the Roman empire.

and it's a combination of multiple Roman gods, but also, like, a borrowed Persian god where it is a mostly A monotheism

God that you have to pray to before you're praying to any other God.

And then the other gods are treated of the Roman or Greek pantheon more like you would treat saints today. Or angels today, you know, not full gods. So this is to say that I think that there was a natural desire for a quote unquote real religion.

Simone Collins: Or for monotheism. I mean, Zeus was always daddy God, you know, I don't,

Malcolm Collins: I feel like there's a speck.

If you look at our three face video which I'd suggest people check out, it's like probably like a thousand views because it was one of our early videos, but [00:45:00] it is by far, I think one of our most life changing videos for anyone who watches it.

It is very good at showing that there have always been sort of three core religious traditions that sort of cluster ideas throughout human history.

And Judaism and and you just cannot easily create one from paganism without doing something like Sol Invictus. Now here I want to talk about a separate thing because I was also talking about both the way that Is Ben Eliezer really mirrors a lot of what Jesus offered the Jewish people saying, Oh, you don't need to be as strict about this.

Oh, here are some additional teachings. Oh, here's some. But I think the bigger and better example of this is Shabbatai Zevi. So for people who aren't familiar who of who he is. He was born in 1629 in Samaria, modern day Turkey. He was a Sephardic Jewish rabbi and a Kabbalist and Kabbalism had really just sort of started at this time.

He was adding it as a condensed [00:46:00] tradition. Oh, sorry. I should Do a bit more explanation here of what Kabbalism is because it's important to understand. So, Judaism has a collection of teachings. And they, they typically come in like 2 large canons of teachings. And then when Christians came along 1 guy.

said Jesus, right? I have access to new information. And it is going to update the old teachings. And it is going to remove some of the old rules and it is going to establish a new era. And here's this new book. Now, obviously Jesus didn't write the new book, but like that's the gist of what happened.

And so Jews go, Oh, that's a new religion. Cause they added, you know, a new book and I'm like well, you guys did the same thing with the Kabbalah, right? Like, you know that, right? Like a thousand years after Christ, you guys add a new book, which has all sorts of new teaching them. They're like, Oh, these had always been in the background.

And I'm like, convenient story. But if you look at when the Kabbalah was beginning to gain popularity with this guy's life, I'm about to mention, let me go through this [00:47:00] guy's life and see if you can draw any similarities or it's easier. Okay, so, he proclaimed himself the long awaited Jewish Messiah in 1665.

His messianic claims gained widespread support among Jews across Europe and the Ottoman Empire, creating one of the largest messianic movements in Jewish history. However, Zevi's messianic career came to a dramatic end in 1666 when he arrived in Constantinople. He was imprisoned by the Ottoman authorities.

Given the choice between execution and conversion to Islam, Zevi chose to convert. He took the name Aziz Meded and lived out as an outward Muslim until his death in 1676. So that's why he died out, was because he was such a traitor. But that doesn't mean that he didn't get a lot of Jews to convert to Islam.

to move to him. So let's see what, what, what sort of innovations did he add? Okay. So he taught that he was capable of eradicating sins even for persistent offenders of Jewish law. Remind you of anyone? His followers believes that his coming had [00:48:00] abolished the need to observe traditional Jewish law.

Mm hmm. He was also known as being uniquely he claims to be a feminist, a feminist, a female liberationist, female liberationist, slash egalitarian in his message when compared to traditional Jewish law, which Jesus also was, we'll get to that. He claimed to have mystical powers, including firing wild animals bare

He abolished traditional feast days commemorating the destruction of the temples and claiming that a new temple would be rebuilt. So he was also an apocalypticist. Basically

Speaker 5: The whole set

Malcolm Collins: of what Christ was offering Jews. And he came along and was like, I like these ideas. Basically, what I'm saying is the Christ like offeror is today only seen as distinctly non Jewish because it got so big.

If it hadn't gotten as big as it, if it hadn't become the dominant world religion, we would think of Christians as a weird sect of [00:49:00] Jews. If this guy hadn't pussied out and converted to Islam we would see his followers today as a, maybe even the dominant sect of Jews, it sounds like.

Wow.

Because when you consider the, basically the only thing that this guy had, that Israel ben Eliezer, who founded the Hasidic sect of Jews, didn't have, Israel ben Eliezer, did not claim to be the Messiah.

But

basically everything else here is false. Check, check, check, check, check. So he basically just didn't go for like the full, the full set. But he was bringing most of the same ideas, which is to say, I also

Simone Collins: think it's, it's not even about claiming to be the Messiah. What this guy lacked was a wingman.

And Jesus had wing men, you know,

Malcolm Collins: well, but if you look at what the core differences of what every one of these individuals, whether it's Israel, Bill and Ellie Eiser or this guy or Jesus, what were they saying? They said [00:50:00] one, we need to stop being so like heady and legalistic about everything we're doing. We need to focus on the every Jew.

We need to focus on the every man. The old rules of the past, they don't apply in the same way. We need to loosen them. We need to stop being so dogmatic about all of this. We need to open up what was thought of as sort of like the elitist part of Judaism, to the every Jew to practice. And, and with Jesus, he just went one step further, which is to the every, every man to practice.

What I'm pointing out here is that this particular idea. It's not weird that it caught on when Jesus did it. Apparently whenever somebody does this, it catches on like wildfire, because it is such a good idea with this specific idea at play here, being. Is there a way to be sort of a populist Jew.

To create a form of Judaism that is more accessible for everyone. [00:51:00] And that loosens the rules. But without loosening the religious conviction or depth of faith. So, is there a way to do something? Let's say like a reformed Judaism. , which loosens the rules, but also loosens ties to the face.

But that loosens the rules by putting in maybe a new set of rules or a new way of looking at things or a new way of framing things that allows a loosening of the rules without. A loosening of the faith in depth of conviction.

But I think this is important. If you see Christianity as a separate religion from Judaism I think it can cause people to misunderstand Christianity's role. Christianity was just an iteration of Judaism an update of Judaism that wasn't a particularly bigger or more severe update than the update that Shabbat Zevi tried to make, or the update that Israel, Ben Eliezer tried to make [00:52:00] that in the one difference it had to their updates is that it said, okay, now everyone can participate,

And that, I think that when you miss that when you see Christianity is a totally new religion, which a lot of Christians have a motive to do and a lot of Jews have a motive to do a lot of Christians want to have these anti semitic ideologies.

And so it really helps to forget that Jesus was a rabbi. You know, he was a, he was a Jewish religious teacher and most of his early followers were Jews . It was a Jewish thing that he was doing.

And I really need to emphasize here. It was not a weird Jewish thing to be doing for that period of time. Being a wandering rabbi who performed them into logical feats, I E miracles was pretty common during this time period for that region.

And that when you forget this, you can forget the context or the history of Christianity.

And better understand that. I think And again, [00:53:00] this really hurts, and it's one of the things that I've come to understand better as I've understood, researched Jewish history, and now I don't see Judaism to be this single continuity, but rather a number of offshoots that it has no lower claim to being the original Jews than, you know, the Hasidic Jews do, for example.

Interesting.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: To word this another way. , when we look at our shared ancestor with monkeys, I don't have any additional claim to that ancestor that a monkey wouldn't have to that ancestor. We're both just different branches on the same tree.

People often make this mistake in the same way they make the mistake of saying we are descended from monkeys when it's no, we're not descended from monkeys. We and monkeys have a common ancestor. I'm saying it's the same thing with modern Judaism. Christianity is not descended for Judaism. They have a common ancestor, which we'll call ancient Judaism. ,

a person could claim that modern [00:54:00] Judaism

has conserved more of the features associated with that ancient ancestor, then Christianity has.

And it definitely has.

But I think it's a real stretch to claim that it's the same religion, especially when you consider that claim in the context of Kabbalah, literature and practices that didn't exist back then, or practices tied to the destruction of the temple, which obviously didn't exist back then either or practices tied to the long Jewish diaspora period, which obviously didn't exist back then.

I really think to hold this belief, if you do, it's a theological belief rather than a fact-based belief. When I look at the degree of differences. And that's okay. It's okay to hold theological beliefs.

But, , it's a problem. If you mistake a theological belief for a fact-based belief.

I think that the real claim that Judaism has to being the quote unquote true strain. Is [00:55:00] the

, but. That to me seems like a pretty weak claim

For arguing one theological belief is more valid than another theological belief

Or to put it another way. If there was a time slip and the temple reappeared with Jews that practice Judaism in the way they did before the second temple period.

Including all of the rituals and animal sacrifices and songs. And stricter cast system and money changers.

Those people would be as different from the Jews of today as probably the Samaritans are

Or to worded another way, calling modern Judaism. The true Judaism is a bit like calling Bitcoin Satoshi vision, the true Bitcoin, because it is closest to Satoshi's original.

Protocol, even though it is different from that.

Simone Collins: Okay. So new section, perhaps our favorite section of this book review from Scott Alexander, because I regret to [00:56:00] inform you, the pronatalists are right about everything. We found above that the Christian population needed to grow at 40 percent per decade and assume this meant conversion, but you could also do this through a fertility advantage.

If a generation lasts 30 years and Christians have three times more children than pagans per generation, they can get 40 percent per decade growth without converting anyone at all. In reality, it was probably a mix. Some conversion plus some fertility advantage. Here I start to worry that some right wing pronatalist organization bribed Rodney Stark to abandon his usual scholarly attitude and write some kind of over the top pronatalist fanfic.

I was waiting for the eagle named MORE BIRTHS. perches on the blackboard, and the child free professor was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity. Still, let's take it at face value and see what this fanfic has to say. By the imperial era, Roman fertility was plummeting. Partly this was [00:57:00] because the Romans practiced sex selective infanticide.

There were 130 men for every 100 women, and so many men would probably never be able to find a wife. But partly this was because the men who could find wives dragged their feet. Male Roman culture took it as a given that women were terrible, that you couldn't possibly enjoy interacting with them, and that there was no reason besides duty that you would ever marry one.

Malcolm Collins: So consider, consider this. If you are being drawn by one of these iterations of right wing culture today that says this is the way that good Christian men should view women as like these terrible corruptors of society, those people are the pagans. They have re evolved a pagan philosophy and view of women that mirrors the view that was destroying the Roman upper classes as their society fell apart.

[00:58:00] When you People wonder why I go so hard against the woke right, which is, if you haven't heard this term before, it's the faction of the right who is really like, Ooh, like we have to be anti woman and women are destroying everything. And we need to ban this and ban that and everything like that. I'm like, I go hard against them in what I'm.

Talking about here because they represent a faction that is as nefarious as the urban monoculture to civilization's long term thriving. This is why they're like almost all single or divorced. Like the, they, their, their relationships don't work. What they are selling the way they are selling in terms of how you should treat women.

It does not lead to a surviving civilization. Okay, just meant to appeal to your ego, like grow out of it and understand that they are the villain in the house. They are the wolf in sheep's [00:59:00] clothing. They are the witch handing you a poisoned apple. Do not bite that apple.

They are in the story of early Christianity, the pagans who Christians were fighting against.

This sums up my thoughts on the overly manosphere types.

Speaker 8: I gave you an opportunity, to show the world that you're more than just a scary stereotype, but you're too proud or too gutless to take advantage of it.

Speaker 9: Have We met? I'm the villain of every story. Even if by some miracle we did change.

Who's gonna believe us, huh?

Speaker 12: Maybe they will believe you. Maybe they won't. But it doesn't matter. Don't do it for them. Do it for you. Come on, what have you got to lose?

Speaker 10: I don't know, my dignity?

Speaker 12: Yeah, well, that ship has already sailed.

Simone Collins: .

In 131 BC, the Roman censor, Quintus Caecilius Matilius Macedonicus, proposed that the Senate make [01:00:00] marriage compulsory because so many men, especially in the upper classes, preferred to stay single.

Acknowledging that, quote, we cannot have a really harmonious life with our wives, unquote. The censor pointed out that, quote, since we cannot have any sort of life without them, unquote, the long term welfare of the state must be served. As Beryl Rossorm reported, one theme that recurs in Latin literature is that wives are difficult and therefore men do not care much for marriage.

Okay, so this was just a very, not even anti natalist culture, but like anti

Malcolm Collins: marriage culture, which, mm. Well, anti marriage is a downstream of an extremely misogynistic view towards women.

Simone Collins: Yeah, kind

Malcolm Collins: of

Simone Collins: South Korea. Yeah, we've got some South Korea vibes going on here.

Malcolm Collins: I wouldn't say South Korea, I'd say Nick Fuentes, to be honest.

Simone Collins: Well, I know, but in general, just any culture that's like, Hmm, let's, the other gender, man, what a bunch of mean, terrible people, don't like them,

Malcolm Collins: that kind of attitude. But continue, because [01:01:00] they go further with this, and I think that this is something we see, where they're like, Oh, well, if we just create more rules around controlling women, or forcing men to marry, like, Oh, you gotta ban pornography, oh, you gotta, you know, this'll get them to marry, and it's like, it doesn't work that way.

They have, the way you get men to marry is you get them to like and respect women.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: Mm hmm. Totally. All right. Scott Alexander continues. The Romans understood that this was long term fatal for their empire and tried all sorts of schemes to increase family formation. In the mid first century B. C.

Cicero re proposed Metellus scheme, to make marriage compulsory, but it failed once again. Augustus contended himself with punitive taxes and second class citizenship for unmarried and childless couples, combined with subsidies and affirmative action for men with at least three children. Formal and informal social pressure eventually convinced most Roman men to take wives, but no amount of love or money could [01:02:00] make them have children.

Dense cities discouraged large families. Roman children were expensive. Nobles would have to spend immense effort and political favors grooming them for high positions and the scourge of all nobilities, too many children risk splitting the inheritance. Also, if you had a girl, you'd probably just kill her.

She would consume resources without continuing the family line and half of children died before adulthood from some disease or another. Anyway, this was just a really bad value proposition.

Malcolm Collins: Before you go further, I wanted to say. As you can see here they, they, they tried to increase the fertility rate by instating restrictions.

It doesn't work. It cannot increase the fertility rate by instating restrictions. And here, what you're going is a similar phenomenon to what we've seen. As I pointed out, the studies that have looked at this showed the higher amount of religiosity. You should go to our masturbation video. If you want to see more on this, cause we really go into the stats on [01:03:00] this.

The higher amount of religiosity was in a part of the United States, the higher amount of porn consumption you're going to have going down to the zip code. You see this across Christian traditions. You see this directly tied to the amount that they try to restrict use of pornography. You can not, increase your fertility rate, at least any more.

It appears that maybe this used to work with Catholics pre 70s, but now Catholics have the lowest fertility rate of all Christian communities. So, any religion that is increasing its fertility rate by saying, oh those of you who want to get off, and like, don't care about the long term consequences of that.

That's who we want having kids, which is fundamentally what you're doing when you make kids not a product of loving your spouse and caring about the future, but of I need to get off. And you'll see how Rome failed in the same way here.

Simone Collins: Nor did the sex drive force the matter. Horny Roman men had their choice of a wide variety of male and female slaves and prostitutes. [01:04:00] Despite Augustus and his spiritual heirs fuming about monogamy, this was never really enforced on the male half of the population. When men did have sex with women, it was usually oral or anal sex, specifically to avoid procreation.

When they did have vaginal sex, they had a wide variety of birth control methods available, including the famous xylophone, but also protocondoms and spermicidal ointments. If a child was conceived, despite these efforts, abortion was common, albeit unsanitary. Maternal death rates were extremely high, but this was not really a deal breaker for the Roman men making the decision.

If a baby was born, in spite of all this, infanticide was legal and extremely common.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on, we gotta go into the quote here, right? So, Okay, I'll read it,

Simone Collins: sure. Quote, far more babies were born than were allowed to live. Seneca regarded the drowning of children at birth as both reasonable and commonplace. Tacitus [01:05:00] charged that the Jewish teaching that, quote, it is a deadly sin to kill an unwanted child, unquote, was but another of their, quote, sinister and revolting practices, unquote.

Not only was the exposure of infants common practice, it was justified by law and advocated by philosophers. All right, f**k Romans. F**k that. F**k the pagans. Right? The

Malcolm Collins: witches suck. Witches suck. Okay. And when people today are like, I practice a new form of like a Roman and Greek paganism, I'm like, okay, like, do you not understand how monstrous these people were?

Not cool. They were monstrous. When people go and they're like, oh, I practice a traditional form of like, whatever. I'm like did they practice human sacrifice? Did they practice? Did they just discard of infants? They didn't like, you know, like they were horrible. Genuinely, genuinely quite monstrous.

And so when a group comes along, and by the way, if you're wondering why they did so well with women in the early days this is why like, [01:06:00] I think I know like either

Simone Collins: as a woman, you are being coerced into sexual relations, hated by your husband. Your, your, maybe you get pregnant, you're forced to have an abortion that maybe kills you.

If, if you don't die in childbirth. Then maybe you'll die right after or they will literally kill your infant and I know having had Children now like I will do anything to protect one of our infant like I just the amount of rage and unhappiness that these women must have lived with is sobering and scary so after reading about that I was like, oh So that's why Christianity spread.

I feel like it's downplayed a little bit in this, that, that Scott Alexander is not totally sure that it's the female friendliness, but especially knowing the, just the fear. I feel anything bad happening to my living and healthy and perfectly fine children. The [01:07:00] idea of living in fear and Roman society of.

Being forced into sex and then having a child and then having that child murdered. Like definitely go for a new culture and

Malcolm Collins: then they hear about these christian guys Yeah, a hundred percent of those women are like sign me the f**k up for that.

Simone Collins: Yep

Malcolm Collins: totally You I I yeah, I I think you're right and I think that people are hugely underestimating How strongly that would have been pulling people over?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yep You Yeah, just better humane treatment of people. Who knew? Christians follow the opposite of all these practices. They recommended that men love their wives and held this as a plausible unexpected outcome. This was not exactly unprecedented, but it was a dramatic reversal of Roman custom from Ephesians 5.

By the way, before [01:08:00] I

Malcolm Collins: go further, people should be aware, Scott Alexander, the person who's writing this, is Jewish in background. So he's not like standing Christianity to stand Christianity, continue. No.

Simone Collins: Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies, He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body. Sorry. But they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church, for we are members of his body. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.

This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each of [01:09:00] you must love His wife, as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. End quote. The Christians banned adultery, and unlike the Roman bans, gave it teeth. Meaning that married men who wanted sex had no choice but to go to their wives.

They had, they held that sex had to be procreative, banning anal sex, oral sex, homosexual sex, and birth control. And obviously they banned infanticide. Many of these bans weren't effective. Active decisions, but carryovers from the movement's Jewish roots. So this is,

Malcolm Collins: I think, really, really big. So you're a woman, right?

Like people don't understand how pro woman Christianity is. It's like, wait, wait, wait, my husband has to be monogamous. He's not going to kill my babies anymore. He's not going to what, what, what is You know, when he has sex with me, he has to maybe get me pregnant and deal with it because keep in mind the other types of sex the Romans were having, they felt good for the man, like a woman doing [01:10:00] oral on you or allowing anal, but they didn't feel as good for the woman.

Anal did not feel as good for most women as vaginal sex does. Oral doesn't feel as good for most women as vaginal sex does. This is the form of sex that women want. They're like, Oh, I get to have babies. I get to not deal with my babies being killed. I get to have vaginal sex. I get to have a husband who's not sleeping with random prostitutes all the time.

What a treat. Horrible diseases. What a treat. Yeah. Yeah, I was

Simone Collins: always like surprised reading in history books, how so and so's wife converted him to Christian. I mean, now I'm like, Oh, The faith. Yes. The faith won her over. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's

Malcolm Collins: undersold because feminists try to get it these days and, and Christians hear this and they're like, Oh, feminists are being feminists and trying to say that early Christianity was, you know what I mean?

Like there's all of this modern politics. And it's like, [01:11:00] bro, imagine if you drowned a woman's newborn child, how motivated is she going to be? This isn't about feminism. Okay. This is about just at a base level, understanding women.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or acknowledging women as human. I mean, I do think that there's sort of a subhuman status to women in many ancient cultures.

Yeah, keep

Malcolm Collins: in mind, coming from Judaism, Judaism is a fairly sex positive culture in regards to women. For example, a man in Judaism has a religious duty to sexually please his wife. If you are not sexually pleasing your wife in Judaism, you are a bad Jew. You are not doing your religion correctly. And that didn't carry over to Christianity.

I actually liked that it didn't because I think it built and even when I'm talking about like a more moral system, what the Christians say is you need to serve your wife and love your wife as Christ loves you, which is to say that sexuality really doesn't matter. Sexuality, as we [01:12:00] often argue, should be taken.

And this is very different. Less focus

Simone Collins: on hedonism, essentially.

Malcolm Collins: Christians today argue that very non biblically that sexuality should be paired with a hundred percent sex with wives for procreation. When the reality is, is the Bible says basically nothing about this.

Sorry, I should clarify. It says nothing thing, but sex should only be for procreation. It says a great deal saying that you should have sex outside of procreation. Specifically, you have the song of Solomon that's entire book celebrates the physical and emotional aspects of marital love. Including sexual pleasure. You have Proverbs 5, 18, 19, this passage encourage husbands to quote. Rejoice in your wife of your youth in quote, and to be quote intoxicated, always in her love in quote, clearly referring to sexual pleasure.

And then you have one Corinthians seven, three through five, , and in. And this one, I [01:13:00] really don't think you could get any stronger a statement here. And this is coming directly from Paul. , the husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife and likewise, the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but yields it to her husband in the same way.

The husband does not have authority over his own body, but yields to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayers. Then come together again. So that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. So the. Interesting counter to what a lot of people believe. This is saying that neither the husband, nor the wife has the right to deny their partner access to sex.

So it's very clear, Paul, the core guy doing a lot of the early Christian conversions, , said. , the husband cannot, , say to his wife, no, I will not have sex with you right now. If she wants to have sex with them. , this can only be stopped if it is a time [01:14:00] set aside for prayer or by mutual consent. , so you, you do have conjugal duties to your wife.

And there are no caveats in this section about a post-menopausal wife or an infertile wife or an infertile husband.

Which indicates that sexist clearly meant to be had, not just for procreation. That's a pretty big oversight. If that's what was meant by this.

It's, it's arousal patterns. If you can masturbate them in some other way, as long as you're not using another human woman to do that because you shouldn't lust after another woman.

But. You know, it's a drawing or something like that. Nothing in the bible against that. In fact, I mentioned There's one segment that specifically does talk about emissions. And it says that male emissions that are not during sex Should be treated about the same, as female periods

Sorry. I misspoke here. It was a lesser form of sin than a period or a lesser form of ritual uncleanliness and a period. All it required with bathing. Whereas a period required being set apart for seven days.

So definitely not like this [01:15:00] mortal sin that christians today will tell you it is

I would note here in this section, it can also be read as saying that. Anyone who does not regularly masturbate has a different type of emission, which is considered extra unclean specifically. Here is the section on blocked emissions.

Where it says of men was blocked emissions that any bed they lay on or anything, they sit on, it should be considered unclean. , but here, I would note that some people read this section to be talking about diseases, which prevent emissions.

and this is again here Scott makes a mistake, where he accidentally believes what's written in this book by a guy who is a very Creep Hardcore classical Christian, which is trying to convince him of something that isn't true.

And Scott accidentally buys parts of his arguments and his arguments aren't wrong, but sort of buys into the modern belief that from the beginning, Christianity has been a. Life begins at conception movement.[01:16:00]

And this just isn't true. That really only became popular across Christianity after the U S tried to get the Catholics into the right wing coalition in the 1970s. Before that, the majority of Republicans in the U S U S was actually the more pro choice in terms of abortion party. And that if you look at the early writings so if you're looking at somebody like Augustus of Hippo or Thomas Aquinas, both early Catholic thinkers they were, they believe that life began, or not life began, but in soulment, like the soul entered the body at 30 to 60 days after conception happened.

It's kind of remarkable that they. We're pretty good at knowing when the human nervous system began to develop because that is when the human nervous system begins to develop. Could you say that maybe they were actually in touch with God's real teachings instead of crazy nonsense? Yeah, I think maybe.

But anyway the point being is that. Early Christian communities pass laws telling people not to have what were abortions during this time [01:17:00] period. But if you look at the Christian intellectual writers they would have said, well, we're passing these bands, not because life begins at conception, but because your average hick doesn't know what they're talking about, right?

Let's have like, let's just play it safe. And I really like that when we look at the early Christian community, we can see that they had both biblical, you know, as we can see from God, God said, I knew you before you were in your mother's womb, which means there's a degree of predetermination, which means that God knew you before you came to exist in your mother's womb, or you were a soul in heaven and you're later put into the body.

And so the question is, is when does that happen? It likely happens when you have a degree of a nervous system, i. e. if I lose, like, my finger, I don't think I lost part of my soul because I don't have a nervous system thinking in my finger So I think this is important to note here because I think he accidentally spread some bad propaganda in this part, but continue.

Simone Collins: But I'll end this section with a note of caution. I'm not sure how relevant any of this is. Stark refuses to speculate on pagan versus Christian fertility rates, but when I look up modern scholarship, they reasonably point out that pagan rates [01:18:00] must have been around Replacement, given that the Roman population stayed steady or slowly increased for hundreds of years.

Replacement is in quotes because Romans were constantly dying of plague, warfare, fire, and a million other causes, since only a third to half of people who survived to reproduce. Replacement here is something like four to six children per women. This doesn't sound like the antinatalist disaster Stark describes.

I think Stark is mostly talking about Roman elites, the group who Augustus kept pestering to have at least three children, and more broadly about the urban population. These people were constantly dying and being replaced by commoners and villagers. Early Christianity was primarily an urban and upper class movement.

Does this surprise you? Stark urges us to think of modern cults and new religions like American Buddhism, which predominantly recruit disillusioned children of the upper classes. So perhaps it did better than its urban upper class pagan comparison group. Still, since the urban upper class pagans were constantly being replaced by village [01:19:00] lower class pagans as soon as they died out, how much in numerical terms can this contribute to Christianity's growth?

Malcolm Collins: And here is where he made a mistake. Again, I think it just sort of takes this person's word at, at, at face value, Stark's word at face value. Christianity did not have an upper class early community. What it had was a urban focus, which concentrated on things like merchant classes, but was very bad at spreading in the actual aristocratic classes.

So specifically, the people who were converting in mass in early days were manual workers and clerks, shopkeepers and merchants, slaves, and some well to do individuals who could host gatherings in their own homes.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: While there is evidence of some elite converts, especially after the 2nd century, they were a small minority among early Christians during the first few centuries.

The highest levels of Roman society, such [01:20:00] as the senatorial class, were absent from early Christian circles, particularly before Constantine's conversion in the 4th century. So, why was Christianity so urban focused? Because that's what it was, it was an Urban focused religion, not a wealthy focused religion, which they sort of misconstrued here.

And a, and a merchant focused religion. Trade routes. Cities were connected to the best, well established trade routes, allowing for easier travel and communications between Christian communities. Synagogues. Early Christian missionaries often started their work in Jewish synagogues, which are primarily located in urban centers.

Remember, Christianity was a version of Judaism in the early days and seen as a version of Judaism in the early days. Social networks, cities offered dense populations and diverse Social networks facilitating the rapid spread of ideas, which if you look at like the way the EA movement has spread, it's spread in group houses, the fastest, right?

Like the sort of the population, the faster the spread. And then finally you have house churches where you had some [01:21:00] wealthy individuals and wealthy Christians who would host gatherings in nice homes, , the, the early Christians were not overly, they, they were wealthier than your average Roman, but that was because the population was wealthier than the rest of Rome. Not that they were a specifically wealthy group, I think very similar to the Scientologists. They have some sort of upper class influence types.

None of the real aristocrats in our society, but like new money types, a merchant class type, and then a lot of like urban slave types that sort of make up their lower ranks.

Simone Collins: Okay, shall I continue? Continue. A possible synthesis. If you imagine a city as having a constant population, because it's walled, plus its hinterland can only support a certain number of non food producing urbanites, and villagers as replacing urbanites on a one to one basis as they die, then greater Christian urban fertility rates can at least increase.

contribute to the cities and upper class becoming Christian. And once the cities and upper classes are Christian, you [01:22:00] get Constantine and lower classes can be forced to comply. Remember pagan originally meant rural,

Malcolm Collins: which it did, by the way, I was really shocked. That's

Simone Collins: wild. Yeah. One thing Stark did not mention discovering in his study of cults, but which I have heard anecdotally, a lot of male cult members join because the cult has hot girls.

Okay. Here's Malcolm's argument. Scott continues. This seems to have been a big factor in the spread of early Christianity as well. Stark collects various forms of evidence that early Christians were predominantly women. Paul's epistle to the Romans greets 33 prominent Christians by name, of whom 15 were men and 18 were women.

If, it seems likely, men were more likely to become prominent than women. This near equality at the upper ring suggests a female predominance at the lower. A third century inventory of property at a Christian church includes, quote, 16 men's tunics and 82 women's tunics, unquote. The book quotes historian Adolf [01:23:00] von Harnack, who says, Quote, ancient sources simply swarm with tales of how women of all ranks were converted in Rome and in the provinces.

Although the details of these stories are untrustworthy, they express correctly enough for the general truth that Christianity was laid whole by women in particular and that the percentage of Christian women, especially among the upper classes, was larger than that of men. End quote. Why were women converted in such disproportionate numbers?

Again, Stark's sociological background serves him well. He is able to find reports of the same phenomenon in modern religions. Here he quotes Stark, By examining the manuscripts census returns for the later half of the 19th century, Bainbridge, 1983, found that approximately two third of the Shakers were female.

Data on religious movements included in the 1926 census of religious bodies showed that 75 percent of Christian scientists were women, as were more than 60 percent of Theosophists, [01:24:00] Swedenborgans, and Spiritualists. The same is true of the immense wave of Protestant conversions taking place in Latin America.

End quote. That's fascinating, by the way. Women

Malcolm Collins: are the first to convert. Women are the cult ones. They're the cultists. Well, the way it worked in the EA community, because the EA community is overwhelmingly male, is that women would sort of convert because they'd get incredible status, and then it sort of supported a number of, I'd call them witless females, who could get the cream of the crop of Silicon Valley men by converting, and they'd be supported, and they'd be everything like that, so they were treated better than they were by the rest of Silicon Valley, because if you join the EAs well, you get a place to live, and you get Your choice is the best men and you never have to work.

And then that's a really, so it's, it's almost sort of like an inversion of this phenomenon, right? Where it's attracting virtuous women is attracting unvirtuous women.

Simone Collins: Hmm. [01:25:00]

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It

Simone Collins: continues. But along with a general tendency for women to convert, Stark notes that Christianity was especially attractive to women.

The pagan world treated women as their husband's property and not particularly well liked property at that. The book cites the Athenian laws as typical. Quote, The status of Athenian women was very low. Girls received little or no education. Typically, Athenian females were married at puberty and often before.

Under Athenian law, a woman was classified as a child, regardless of age, and therefore was the legal property of some men at all stages of life. Males could divorce by simply ordering a wife out of the household. More over, if a woman was seduced or raped, her husband was legally compelled to divorce her.

If a woman wanted to divorce, she had to have her father or some other man bring her case before a judge. Finally, Athenian women could own property, but control of the property was always vested in the male of whom she belonged, or to whom she belonged. Oh my god, okay, [01:26:00] that's not good. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: No, are you not gonna wanna, like, you're like, oh, I get to own my own property?

Yeah, this. Wow. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Good for you.

Simone Collins: He continues, Meanwhile, Christian women had relatively high status, sometimes rising to the position of deacon within a church. Christian men were ordered to treat their wives kindly, were prohibited from cheating on them, and mostly could not divorce. Christianity, unlike paganism, did not especially pressure widows to remarry, important since remarrying a widow lost faith.

all her property to her new husband, Christian women were only a third as likely as Roman women to be married off before age 13. Women noticed all these benefits and flocked to

Malcolm Collins: Christianity. This is important to note, Christian women were only a third as likely as pagan women To be married off before the age of 13,

Simone Collins: they're just not being

Malcolm Collins: treated

Simone Collins: as chattel as much

Malcolm Collins: as, yeah, as much.

And this means that the men, the [01:27:00] quote unquote Christian influencers who are telling you that women should be treated as chattel, that women are like this corrupting influence on the male mind. These are the modern pagans. Do not trust them. They lead you to sour ends. There is a reason that their wives all hate them, or have left them, or they're single.

Because they are feeding you with poison. It is poison directly into your veins, the messages they preach. Continue.

Simone Collins: Aside from all this, the Romans were practicing sex selective infanticide, reducing their female numbers still further and making the Christians even more proportionally female heavy. If the Christians, like many modern cults, were 65 percent female and the Romans, as some sources attest, were about 40 45 percent female, it is a pretty profound difference.

The Romans grumbled about marriage, but in the end, most Roman men did want wives, if only to avoid government penalties. But 1. 4 men per women, [01:28:00] maybe even less among the upper classes, puts young men seeking wives in a difficult situation. For comparison, modern San Francisco is only 1. 05 men per women, and dating is already hell.

To any remotely heterosexual Roman man, the 65 percent female Christian community must have started looking for Good. Meanwhile, the Christians had the opposite problem. Too many women, not enough men, there is an obvious solution, and it sounds like the Pagans and Christians had also figured it out from one Peter.

Three wives submit yourselves to your own husband so that if any of them do not believe the word. They may be won over without the words by behavior of their wives. When they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

Malcolm Collins: So it was basically saying be so good. Yeah. Be husband can't help but be humbled by your diligence and faith.

And I'd say you've done that for me with a number of things. I believe a number of things now that came from you. I'm like, [01:29:00] well, Simone is more, more faithful and diligent than me.

Simone Collins: By my diligence.

Yeah, there we go. History records. Sorry. History records, many such intermarriages, almost always ending with the conversion of the Pagan husband. If you are a Christian of English descent, you may owe your religion to Queen Bertha of Kent, who convinced her husband, one of the early Anglo Saxo, sorry, one of the early Anglo-Saxon Kings to take her faith.

But Rex, Sandra Tesla has a great post reviewing the work of historian, Michelle Salzman, who disagrees with all of this. Salzman has a database of 400 aristocratic Romans during the fourth century period of Christianity's fastest growth.

She finds few intermarriages, few examples of women converting their husbands, and equal or slightly male biased conversion ratios. Granted, this only is a small sample from one period, but it makes us question how good our evidence really is. Doesn't all this hinge on one passage from Paul, which technically named more men than women, plus one inventory [01:30:00] of tunics, which was so female biased it couldn't possibly have been representative of even a very woman heavy church?

Are we sure that we can make the leap from Christianity promised women more rights to therefore women flock to Christianity? Wasn't that just the same argument pundits used last week to predict a blue wave for Kamala? Why didn't white women actually go for Trump 5346?

Salzman has one more concern, which is that women had so few rights in ancient Rome, society, that Oh, in ancient Roman society that it's hard to see how they could have converted in all when unmarried They were under the care of their father Who would hardly have let them go visiting churches full of strange men when married?

They were under the care of their husband who likewise a typical Roman man wouldn't have cared about his wife's religious opinions, which maybe is why so many of our stories are about intermarriages and conversions come from later periods like Anglo Saxons. I don't know enough about history to referee this dispute, except to say that I think the answer could easily have been different for each of the early [01:31:00] Romans, late Romans, Hellenized Jewish Romans, pagan Romans, upper class Romans, and lower class Romans, plus all combinations thereof.

But again, I think he's underplaying

Malcolm Collins: No, he doesn't get it. Yeah. I think one, the, the, the data that they're looking at, do you really think a lot of Roman men are saying, Oh yeah, my wife's a different religion of me before they convert?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: No, they're not saying that in the census data.

Simone Collins: I also think, you know, women were out and about.

More than you would think. Like they may be chattel level, but you're going to send them out on errands. They're going to gossip. They're going to talk with other people in markets, like means we'll still spread. Women will still do stuff. You know, you can be like, well, I own my dog, but like, I still take my dog walking and that dog picks up a lot of sense and sense stories.

And like, you know, I'm just. Yeah. Yeah. Women can pick, can pick up a religion even in a very, very oppressive society. I,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, I think that this does not [01:32:00] understand how motivating seeing your baby drowned is. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Or, or seeing, you know, your sister get killed in a botched abortion or beaten by someone.

You know, just, there's, there's an, there's plenty, there's plenty motivation. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I think that I, I just, yeah, I think that this is one of those things where historians can't imagine what it was like back then. Now, this piece actually goes a lot further and we will cover the rest of it in a separate video.

But this video is already insanely too long. But I hope that you guys really enjoyed this because I really enjoyed this and it changed a lot of my perspectives on this.

Simone Collins: Totally. Yeah. I, I hadn't thought about the, the women's rights thing. It's also so funny that like, Now, when people think about Christianity, they're like, Oh, like you're here to suppress women with your Christianity.

And my, an early Christian woman would be like,

Malcolm Collins: what? Insanely pro it's not like Christianity was dramatic. It's not like it was marginally more pro [01:33:00] woman. It was dramatically more pro woman than the most extreme feminist today is when contrasted was a modern conservative.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, it's, it's wild. It's,

Malcolm Collins: it's really, it's people not drowning your babies.

If you don't understand how much that's going to freak out a woman, I don't know, like have a baby. Okay. Like get, get on board here, people. And I think that the idea that, Oh, these women, because if you look at this Roman census data, it's not like they were asking women what your religion is. They would go to a husband and say, what's your religion and what's your wife's religion.

Right. You know, and the husband's not going to be like, Oh, my wife is part of this weird Christian cult. Right. No, of

Simone Collins: course not. It's a little embarrassing. You know, it's like admitting your wife's in an MLM. You know, you keep the Lula row a little hidden, you know?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Yes. So I think that that's. like a really silly reason to discount what seems to be like when I look at the tunics thing, that's insane.

It was like 86 with female tunics, like 20 males. [01:34:00] I'm like, yeah, but I get it. Like most older women are going to prefer something like this because they don't have any other support network. Most, you know, and, and you're like, Oh, when is a woman going to interact with an older, maybe a midwife, maybe a, you know, There's a lot of people who can be spreading this stuff.

And there will go over other ways it was spread and why it may not have been seen as nefarious or why people may have had trouble stamping it out. When we get to the next part of this, we're going to talk about like the, the morality differences between the two groups, martyrs and disease survival rates.

Simone Collins: So cool. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. So solid. It's a great. I mean, I want to read the book now, but I feel like it's also a great summary. Astral Codex 10 is just so good. It's so good. Just, you know, whatever. I'm glad we live in such a lucky age. You know, it used to be that only a small percentage of elite people would have access to the thoughts of.[01:35:00]

Malcolm Collins: People, the leading thought leaders of their day because it's just, it's

Simone Collins: super cool. I love it and I love you and I'm glad that you're sharing your thoughts with people because it'd be really sad if your thoughts were just isolated to the world. I mean, I feel the same way about you. I'm so glad that your ideas are out there and you know, like every night when you.

Say goodnight to me. I'm like, Malcolm, no, seriously, like you need, you need to No dying. Don't die. Yeah. You need to not die. So please don't die.

Malcolm Collins: I love you to death, Simone. You're a great wife. We

Simone Collins: have to go check and see if the meat

Malcolm Collins: box

Simone Collins: was

Malcolm Collins: delivered.

Simone Collins: Yes. The best Christmas present ever. A year's worth of meat.

I mean, it's supposed to be one of our family

Malcolm Collins: members buys us a year's worth of meat every year. It's not, it's

Simone Collins: no, it's a week's worth of meat, but we managed to make it last for a year because it's so special. You got, you know, combining deep freezer, you stretch it out with the slow cooker meal where you like combine in a bunch of, you know, [01:36:00] there's some good squash that we can buy.

We'll cook it with. So yeah, you can go look for the box and I'll I guess probably what we'd want to start with is Assuming it's not Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it's fresh, is whatever their nicest steak is. Pan-seared.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you can add tonight. Tonight. Do you want that with any accompaniments or just plain?

Simone Collins: Like just plain Or with any accompaniments.

Malcolm Collins: No, I got the sauces at Trader Joe's.

Simone Collins: No, I mean, but like, do you want to starch with it? Oh yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it's rice.

Simone Collins: Oh, with rice.

Malcolm Collins: With

Simone Collins: coconut rice.

Malcolm Collins: Rice or potatoes, you choose.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, well, No, you could

Malcolm Collins: just reheat the frozen potatoes with the mushrooms.

Simone Collins: Oh, those! Yeah, the Trader Joe's ones.

I was thinking about making, like, homemade No, not fresh potatoes.

Malcolm Collins: That'd

Simone Collins: take

Malcolm Collins: forever.

Simone Collins: Maybe I have to see how long it takes to like flashback them, but anyway, yeah. Okay. I'm all about them. I love [01:37:00] you.

Malcolm Collins: And you see, I'm respectful of our time, right?

Simone Collins: Yes. Thank you. Cause now I can get everything queued up and hopefully not go to bed super late tonight.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Have a good one. Love you. Gorgeous. Love you too. Oh,

Simone Collins: I'm going to stop recording.

I've learned anything interesting.

Just that universities waste prodigious amounts of money. I can tell when I go through RFPs that they put out for travel management and they describe the way that they book travel. I'm like, Oh, you guys,

you guys waste a lot of money. Don't you? Oh, yes you do. Oh. Well, they're the

Malcolm Collins: heart of the whole bleeding broken system that we live in.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I suppose

Malcolm Collins: universities can be cracked. Everything can. That's why I'm so interested in the American academy project.

Simone Collins: [01:38:00] Same here. Yeah. Going through RFP stuff all day today with a university. I'm all the more convinced that this needs to be fixed. The funny thing is my experience is recently doing bid related work with government agencies.

Has made universities seem even more egregiously irresponsible, which is crazy because you would think that government agencies would be the worst on this front, but they're not. They're actually quite, in many cases, responsible. The funny thing is, pretty much every government worker I've encountered has been really responsible, conscientious, like, really doing the best that they can.

University's totally different story. That is where I'm seeing the classic bureaucrat who literally is just out to spin wheels and keep their job justified. Well, the

Malcolm Collins: rot will spread from the universities outwards.

Simone Collins: Why, why [01:39:00] universities first?

Malcolm Collins: Because they are the most, they are sort of the generator of this culture.

So the disease that is now affecting sort of the deep state was lab grown in universities. And developed in universities. It's the, they're the

Simone Collins: gain of function for Yes,

Malcolm Collins: they're gain of function labs for harmful, for a harmful memetic cult. Oh dear me. I, I, you're so clever, Simone. I love you.

Speaker: In ancient Rome, where altars shone, the pagan gods once ruled alone. But quietly came a faithful breed Not through big signs, but with small seed They gathered in humble prayer No sweeping crowds or mass [01:40:00] fanfare They built their homes with children glad More babes they bore than pagans had They didn't conquer hearts by force Or cast the shrines in sudden course.

They simply grew in number, see. The cradle was their victory.

While statues loomed in marble halls. They taught their young beyond those walls. Each brand new life, a living call. That soon outgrew. The pagan, no grand crusade in streets of stone, no golden flags or trumpets blown yet countless children [01:41:00] won the fight and pagan ways. Soon lost their mind, they didn't conquer hearts by force, or cast the shrines in sudden course.

They simply grew in numbers, see, the cradle was their victory. A quiet change from heart to home, in every lane across old Rome. Not by sword. So sparkling stage, but the next generation turned the page. They didn't conquer hearts by force. Or cast the shrines in sudden course. They simply grew in number.

See, the cradle was their victory. Yes, by the crib they came to [01:42:00] be. The future of that. Oh, say,

In this episode, we dive into the recent departure of conservative influencer Brett Cooper from The Daily Wire. We explore the events surrounding her rise to fame, the attempts to replace her, and the gossip and evidence surrounding her exit. We also discuss the broader implications for conservative media, the role of parasocial relationships, and analyze why The Daily Wire may have held Brett back. Tune in for a thorough analysis and our thoughts on what this means for Brett's future and the conservative media landscape.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] I think we all really enjoyed the Brett Cooper goodbye video.

Speaker 2: The peace loving leader of this great country has asked me to appeal to you, to stop your vicious, imperialistic tactics around the globe.

Malcolm Collins: Oh no, not, not that one.

Speaker 6: gonna make a clone, so sneaky Brett won't know, meet the new Brett 2. 0, I know what I'm doing,

Malcolm Collins: This episode is going to be a very gossipy episode. We are going to be going over another conservative influencer, Brett Cooper's recent departure from the daily wire. We are going to be documenting it, the events around it, her rise to fame and the attempt to replace her and the gossip around that.

And the evidence we have for the gossip around that, because I haven't really seen it properly collated in one place before.

Thank goodness, because I've got to say, the [00:01:00] analysis around Brett Cooper's departure from the comments section is just as basic as Brett Cooper, so I am ready for something that's a little bit more interesting.

Speaker 3: Doctor, there has to be a mistake. Well, unfortunately, no. Your symptoms are completely in line with other basic pitches. You're into scented candles, you order your bagel scooped, and then you own a picture frame that says family on it. LUcy, do you have any idea when maybe you first came in contact with all this basic s

I guess, uh, in college. I owned a pair of sweatpants that said sexy on the butt.

Speaker 4: Probably contracted your basic bitchness from the sorority sister. Borrow some Ugg boots here and there.

Experiment with North Face. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This actually, so I was hanging out on the Discord server today, and I was like, I need to understand. Why is Brett Cooper so big? I literally have nothing against Brett Cooper. I, she seems like [00:02:00] a very pleasant person, but whenever I click on one of her videos, I feel like I already know everything that's going to be said.

Watching paint

dry is more interesting because at least something changes when that happens.

Yeah, like I, I can go into one of her videos and I'm like, this is just gonna be all of the most mainstream, curtailed, publicly acceptable conservative opinions on a topic. It's like AI wrote

it. Maybe it did.

But, hold on, I got a good explanation.

Okay. Because at first I was like, is this just like boomers who are like, but it's not apparently it's not, you know, she says her, her audience is majority Gen Z and it in the, in, in the discord, they explained it to me and I'm like, Oh, I totally get it. Okay. Uh, They say that her content is incredibly low taxation, like mental taxation.

Oh, it doesn't stress you out at all.

Okay.

And I know exactly what they mean by that. Yeah. There's some YouTubers who I really like and I'll [00:03:00] see they put out a piece and I'm like, look, I want to watch this piece, but I am not in the mood to digest. Oh, to process it

all. And you watch a lot of high processing channels.

Okay. Yes,

but I also watch low processing channels and a good low processing channel. I watch is asthma gold for example and they're like brett cooper is asthma gold for conservative curious gen z women where just the fact that she's saying something conservative is scandalous to them given their social circles and for old people who want to see someone who is attractive Saying conservative sounding things.

Cause if you look at like the attractive women on Fox and stuff like that now, they're all like 50 years old because they never really like cycled out their anchors for younger attractive models anymore because their audience is so old now that they seem comparatively young. So that's what's probably going on with how Brett Cooper grew her audience.

Yeah. Cause

I just [00:04:00] watched Hannah Ricketts, who's this British woman who just goes. Shopping and you get to like, look at the prices of everything, like at Paris. So yeah, you, you watch low, low. Yes, but this is for people who want to watch it, but feel like they're being intellectuals. It's like for people who, who read pop science books, who are like, I don't really want to think hard, but I want to look like I think hard.

And so I'm going to read the next Malcolm Gladwell book. And you know what I mean?

Malcolm Gladwell of, of, no, I, but I, I'd say that keep in mind, I am saying all of this while knowing that if she had more spicy takes, she would not have been allowed to make them publicly given her role at daily wire.

Speaker 8: Ben has lost touch with his audience. The last thing we want is obedience. Now that Brett is finally free, We get to finally [00:05:00] see who she is going to be.

Malcolm Collins: And so perhaps her departure

is favorable, very

favorable for her.

Yeah.

I don't think that this reflects on her as a person, and we'll talk about why I think she probably left going into this, because I think there's a lot of evidence as to what happened. And I, I think it's, it's for the best for her. It's a career upgrade for her. It may be painful in the short term, but so long as, because we don't know how much of her takes rescripted, but there's evidence that she which we'll get into, that That she is a competent conservative commentator without whoever was helping her with scripts and stuff at the Daily Wire.

Oh, really? Oh, interesting. Yeah, and we'll get into that as well. So, for people who don't know who Brett Cooper is, Brett Cooper works for the Daily Wire. That means she's under the thumb of Ben Shapiro's empire. Although her channel would get on 000 views per video, whereas Ben's gets on average About 60, 000 views per video, so Ben is [00:06:00] dramatically, yeah, we're only like like one six or maybe, maybe more than that, as big as, as Ben's channel is, like we're catching up there.

My understanding is Matt Walsh's

channel though gets fewer views than her channel did, than the comments section did.

Oh, really? Her channel actually gets around the same number of views as Candace Owens channel, who also recently left The Daily Wire, which we'll be talking about as well.

So Okay, so

with The Daily Wire, Brett Cooper got approximately the same per video views as Candace Owens after the Daily Wire, correct?

After the Daily Wire. Yeah, Candace Owens grew after she left the Daily Wire, which is, you know, not great for whatever Daily Wire is. Well, and the argument

that the Daily Wire makes is, look, they're just fine after, and we're not ruining them.

Because a lot of people are talking about predatory contracts, and that's just not.

Well, yeah. Okay. So I'll make a note here. So there was this big thing last year where Louder was Crowder. Crowder was saying, Oh, Daily Wire is trying to loop me into this like predatory contract. And now everyone's like, Oh, look, they took Brett Cooper's [00:07:00] channel.

They're keeping all her old videos up. Like, isn't that predatory? And I'm like, not really. Brett Cooper was not a conservative commentator before this. She was an actress. They built her. She was on Broadway. Yeah. Yeah. And she was hired as an actress to start now she might have even described

her as a great actress, like with her departure.

Well, no, I think that was thrilling

shade that was okay. Okay. No, no, no, no. That wasn't detecting shade. So, to describe what she does on her channel, it's a channel where she talks about conservative ideas, just like conservative leaning, but on the very, very centrist side of things. I'd argue that like on average, she's probably more lefty than we are on, on most things.

And a lot of people accuse us of being rhinos. But it's not that they're lefty in a true lefty sense. They're lefty in a true, never breaking the mores of what is publicly acceptable sense. But we live in a society today where breaking the mores of public acceptability is part of the definition of what it means to be a [00:08:00] conservative.

So that's kind That's where she's sort of in a weird position there. And she talks about them very similar to this channel, just sort of going over news, stuff like that. Okay. So, Brett Cooper was born in 2001, by the way. So she's in the 2000s. That's how young she is. And Washington. She grew up in a conservative household, was her mother described as an objectivist.

If you're not sure what objectivism is, that's Ayn Rand's philosophy. That's Ayn Rand's, oh

Simone Collins: my gosh, what? That's amazing. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: She mentions that her parents didn't allow her to watch Disney movies as a child. No. Cooper attended university in California, Los Angeles, where she majored in English literature with a minor in business.

She performed on Broadway until she was 10. A Act like she like went into acting and then got into the daily wire. No, she started her life as an actor performing on Broadway until she was 10. Performing in musicals like the sound of music in Annie. That's huge to have done by the way. Her film debut was an [00:09:00] uncredited role as a speech student in the 2012 movie parental guidance.

She appeared in various TV shows such as Gordon Moore Gibbons life on normal street, 2016 and shots fired. 2017. Her most notable role was as

trailer Parker in the 2018 TV series Heathers. Oh, she was in the Heathers

remake? There's a Heathers remake?

I guess. Okay, well. There was a Heathers remake, but this appears to be something different because it's a TV series.

I'll put a clip from it here.

Speaker 7: What is happening? Why are you touching me? Oh, um, so sorry, um, reflex. I was going to say grace. Do you mind? Thank you, Lord. Amen. My prayer came true! No, I'm fine with the chips and the tomato water. Oh, you're afraid of ethnic food. It's okay, it's just the same four ingredients in different combinations. Wait, you've been to Guatemala? You know, [00:10:00] missionary work.

Digging wells, giving out medicine. Oh, I didn't realize that poor people could also do charity. Of course, Julie. There's always people you can help. Poorer than you? And you still believe in God? Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So she wasn't an actress. To be clear, she was an actress, and I really need to emphasize this. And one of my things when I started looking into all this was I asked myself, like, do we have any evidence that Brett Cooper actually is even a conservative? Like, I know she's not like a traditional Christian, similar to us I know that, you know, could it be that she really is just being fed all of this stuff?

But there's pretty good evidence she's not. So, during her time at UCLA she does mission. So all of this could be faked that she had conflicts with leftist ideologies, including having the communist manifesto thrown at her during her senior year. She left her sorority Being asked to condemn Justice Amy Coney Barrett. So she did get kicked out of her sorority for not condemning Coney Barrett. And she [00:11:00] lost friends for speaking out against Black Lives Matter as an organization. , there's evidence that she criticized the COVID 19 lockdowns and that she worked for PragerU before working for the Daily Wire.

And Young Americans for Liberty. She also joined PragerU's youth organization called PragerFirst during the middle of COVID after facing backlash for her conservative views at UCLA. And she also wrote for conservative outlets before joining the Daily Wire writing articles for the Foundations for Economic Education, a libertarian think tank.

So, How was she found by the Daily Wire? , apparently, Daily Wire staffer, Gracie Bolin Crook, spent about three weeks searching the internet for quote unquote, young, cute girls who could host a show targeted at a younger audience. And she came recommended, likely given her work at PragerU, another mainstream conservative outlet.

So, she was hired because she was pretty, [00:12:00] young, and female. Not for her views, not for her thoughts, not for anything like that. And I would argue, you know, people might say that she would have grown if she wasn't, was in the Daily Wire network. I actually don't believe that. I don't think she'd have the audience she has now.

She is not, and we'll get into this in a second, but she is not candace Owens has always had a very unique selling point. Like, I go to Candace Owens and I know I'm going to get out their ideas.

Yeah. And she's good. She produces good soundbites. She's got a very strong, memorable, fun, gregarious personality.

And I think here's, Oh, here's the problem with Brett Cooper. She has the nice disease. And you know that we're like, all you can really say is like, she's nice. She's pretty, but like, okay, what else? You know, that doesn't mean anything. Maybe

we'll see a new Brett Cooper, but my favorite Candace I want to quote is I'm too pregnant for this right now.

Yeah. Anyway so, the show, now this is where it gets spicy. So she left the show and she did this, this [00:13:00] thing where she like said, I'm leaving and we're leaving on good terms, but she looked very like caged and like scared to say anything. And we know that she's under strict NDAs because unfortunately, that the show didn't let her talk about her leaving earlier gave us a lot of information.

Specifically, there were a number of leaks about her leaving. before she left. But these leaks came packaged with other information, which adds a huge amount of veracity to all the other information that was packaged with leaks specifically that she was under a strict India and the leaks also timed when she was going to be making the announcement.

So likely accurate. That there was a huge amount of animosity going on. And that the office had become a really toxic work environment with them actually like background recording what was being said when like senior people weren't around to like try to catch people up for breaking rules or saying bad things about them, like very 1984, but I can totally see that.

And [00:14:00] That her best friend and some people have said the maid of honor, but I've only been able to find that she was a bridesmaid at Brett Cooper's wedding, is replacing her, who was a producer on the show. And that individual was being trained, Reagan was being trained to replace Brett, specifically taking acting courses.

To learn how to act and have the mannerisms of Brett.

Speaker 8: Another soulless copy, Why is the cloning so sloppy? Cloning Brett. It turns out an audience can't be bought.

I'm gonna make a clone so sneaky Brett won't know. Meet the new Brett Tupin. No, I know what I'm doing. So why are they booing? I am not stupid. Stop laughing, it's just a joke. Just a minor [00:15:00] change in staffing,

Malcolm Collins: And it doesn't matter if

she was given acting courses or not. It's very clear that she is emulating the mannerisms and speech of Brett Cooper. They're so one of Brett Cooper's friends also a YouTuber made a video about her departure in which he shared a photo from the wedding.

He himself was a flower. Man, boy,

I saw this guy. Yeah. Yeah.

And he, he said that she was the maid of honor. So I think that that's enough of a primary source confirming that relationship and that they were best friends. The big drama being that after Brad Cooper's departure, she did not only unfollow the comment section, but she unfollowed Reagan, her replacement and the producer of the comment section who took her place on Instagram, which is sort of the most NDA acceptable way to say Kind of pissed about this, that it wasn't on good terms, which surprised me because I thought the most plausible reason why all this fell apart was exactly the thing that Tim Poole [00:16:00] said, which is she just wanted a higher salary, the daily where wasn't willing to pay for it, you know, she maybe wanted more freedom like Jordan Peterson did has with the daily wire where he doesn't have to do sponsorships.

He can kind of do his own thing. Probably gets paid a ton and she probably wanted that because she. Bring you, she commands a large audience and they probably said, you're too junior. You've only been here for three years. We're not doing this. And so she walked, which is a logical and reasonable, I don't think

that's what happened.

I, okay. So I'll walk you through what I think happened. So first Brett Cooper was being hugely held back by the daily wire. You know, she hadn't done any modeling stuff. She hadn't done any acting, which she easily could have done alongside this. And she clearly has a passion for, I don't know, because

it seems to be a very regular production schedule.

You can group it. Yeah, I mean, we do, we have, we do daily episodes, Simone, that are longer than hers, while having a full time job, while running a perinatal care unit. Yes, but if you are

filming or modeling, that can take a week of time, for example, and she [00:17:00] does news commentary, so that would be much more useful.

We

regularly take weeks of time off, she can handle it. She, she couldn't handle it if she's working for the Daily Wire, but if she's running her own thing, it allows her to grow her brand significantly. She wasn't doing what other YouTubers regularly do, which is tours, meeting with, with fans speaking at you know, for her number of subscribers, she should have been doing like a Jordan Peterson thing, like going city to city, talking to large groups.

They were hugely constraining her ability to continue to build her brand and move to the next stage of her career. I mean, she was walking the red carpet at daily wire movie launches, but she could have been walking the red carpet at Hollywood. You know, she has the public profile and the publicly acceptable public profile to be doing really, really big stuff right now.

And I think that they constrained her from moving forwards in that way, because that would have bred the Grown the Brett Cooper brand instead of the comment section brand, which could have made her more expensive, which could have, you know, there was a lot [00:18:00] of reasons. And also think about it from her perspective, she likely wants to move to the next stage of her life.

I mean, all of this happened right after she got married, she got married in 2024. And what's also interesting about the marriage to me is It could provide like a stable income source for her, letting her try bolder things where her BATNA was a lot, lot higher than it was before the marriage, because now she's got a, a husband was an income source.

So she can play hard ball in maybe a way she wouldn't otherwise. playing hardball before the marriage. And before the marriage, look, if you're talking about like being very ambitious about your career, you're probably on the back burner there. You're probably like, well, I'm focused on the marriage right now.

I'm focused on the honeymoon right now. Like when the marriage is over now, it's like, okay, what's next for my life? And there was no real way for a promotion was in the daily wire. There was no like next big thing that she was going to be able to do at the daily wire. So I think she was in a position where she [00:19:00] Completely for her own self interest.

It was, I mean, it probably came down to them not giving her what she wanted her because what she was asking for in terms of payment. But I think the offer she asked for an additional payment was made knowing that they would probably fire her if she asked for this. I think it was probably one of those types of situations.

I think what she didn't expect is her friend to come in and take her role or for her friend to so intentionally copy her brand. And if you read the Daily Wire comment section, it is like a bloodbath. Like, the fans are so, so angry about this. And I feel bad for Regan. Like, I don't Regan didn't get her fired.

Like, Regan didn't orchestrate any of this. I just think that she expected Regan to not take the job. I can understand how, and I often mention this, it is easier to feel angry at somebody when people tell you you're justified in that anger. And I think the internet and a lot of people are telling her that she's justified in being angry at Reagan, but I don't really think she is.

No, Reagan, [00:20:00] what was Reagan supposed to do? Quit the daily wire as well and go for, you know, Uncertain, whatever Brett is doing, did Brett even make an offer to her to quit? Did Brett even make an offer to pay her? Likely not. And so what? She needs to keep her job. The show she's a producer of no longer has its star.

What else is she supposed to do? Oh, go on and present a completely different persona. How is Reagan going to do that? Reagan is an actress as well. You know, she doesn't seem like the type of person with her own ideas.

Well, I also get the impression that the Daily Wire, especially in light of Candace Owens.

Being they had a messy departure or unpairing conscious uncoupling. And I think that the daily wire would love to create a more formulaic NPC avatar, female conservative talking head. So my impression to also from our experience working from people who [00:21:00] do content, is it maybe the daily wire understood a broad formula of How a basic low mental effort, female conservative talk show talking head should talk and look and they, they literally looked around for an attractive female commentator to fill that role to be the face and they wrote out a script and they set their set and they chose the subjects.

And that's just what. There is, there's no real personality behind it. They needed an actress to fill that role and they, they don't, they actively don't want anyone to be uniquely interesting. So my understanding of their bet that they're making with this and it might work. Is it? They can just switch out faces and it'll be just fine.

Just like it won't

work. They're not Fox news. People have a parasocial relationship with, so there's two big mistakes they made, right? Yeah. I, yeah. And there's,

there's that part, but I, when it, when it's such generic content, do you really think there is that parasocial relationship? Because [00:22:00] absolutely. I think it's

even bigger because the.

type of people who watch this low brain effort content. Like these older boomers who are like gooning to her content, basically. They're not like watching it to like get off, but like there, we know from Fox news, there is a certain demographic of older individuals who like to hear their news delivered to them by an attractive woman.

And I think that's a portion of her audience and another portion of her audience is young women who want to flirt with conservative ideas, but nothing too spicy. And then another portion is like the asthma gold audience, like, just like low, I don't, I want to turn my brain off and watch this. Every one of those audiences is going to like a few things they're going to like, building a relationship with someone believing that she is genuinely this person.

She is selling herself as on the show and daily wire is selling her as on the show. But in addition to that they are going to love drama. They are going to love conservative media drama around this. And I think a [00:23:00] really big portion of her audience has gotten invested in the Brett Cooper leaving drama.

And I bet they're watching all the videos about Brett Cooper leaving. And if you look, I mean, one, the subscriber count is dropping, but I expect because it's just going to be something you can't avoid. Okay, if you are into Brett Cooper content, are you not now going to be served Brett Cooper drama content?

Like, it's, it's really I, I 100 percent think that they're going to get a loud amount of content about this. Now, if you talk about Candace Owens, Candace Owens is very different. So it seems very clear to me why Candace Owens left. And it may also influence why Brett Cooper left, because there's been some suspicious wording here.

So. Candace Owens left because she does not unquestionably support Israel in the war. And the way we do, it's funny, like we're, we're like Brent Shapiro. If he actually knew our positions would probably be like, Oh, they aligned with me on almost every major one of my positions. Like [00:24:00] for example, did you know that Ben Shapiro has said no one in the United States should be retiring at 65 years old.

And he wants to, he calls it a stupid idea and he wants to privatize social security. And other fun, like he's, he's actually has like, he's very libertarian and he's very pro. It's not like we are very but. He also has a problem in the way that he sees the world, which he arose in the last generation of conservative influencers.

He arose when your average conservative influencer was an AM radio show host. And we're not from that generation and that generation doesn't really exist anymore. So even though he's of our generation, he doesn't really get it. Get it at the end of the day. That's why he's not able to grow in the same way these people he finds are able to grow.

That's why Candace Owens Gross increases when she leaves the show, because what conservatives want now is unconstrained opinions, unconstrained by the shackles of the culture around us, where fundamentally what he always wants is [00:25:00] to Sort of suck up to whoever the big guy is who can protect him. Like, I think that that's what he said when he did a video recently, that was just like a horrible take.

It was the people who defend the UNH shooter that the, you know, that, that even though this guy is like mass killing, tons of people continued. to signal that he wanted to mass kill tons of people and there was no legal way to stop what he was doing and the shooting appears to be uninfected likely already saving thousands of lives or at least hundreds of lives already just in the first few days because we've already seen the, the, the a lot more policies being approved been with like the people who support this guy, the same people who support him, us, it's a perfect overlap and I'm like, man, you just, Are completely out of touch with the base right now.

But it's because you know, oh big rich people i'm gonna go Hide with them. Oh, normies. I'm gonna go hide with them. Oh, you know, he doesn't he doesn't understand that is where he breaks from the mainstream, which is where he still has any sort of credibility with the next generation of [00:26:00] conservatives.

Well, with that, he thinks that when he's taking a position, which sides is what he sees as mainstream in our society or within his circles. He thinks he can basically do whatever he wants and bully anyone he wants. And he tried to do that with Candace Owen and Candace Owen is like, go F yourself. Well, apparently Brett Cooper has been remarkably neutral on the Israeli conflict.

And I mean, that could just be due to the extreme norminess of the stuff she's putting out there, but it could also be that she's been wanting to take a harsher stand on that. And that's been reined in by bit.

Interesting. Yeah. I don't imagine that the script of her show really allows for any, Interesting takes.

Yeah. To sort of understand to understand why she left. I think understanding the psychology of Ben is really important. So you know, Ben Shapiro voted against Donald Trump in 2016. He's always been a pretty vocal critic of trial, but never really, he doesn't seem to understand why people like Trump.

He's like, he's vulgar and weird and what's up [00:27:00] with this. But he sort of has gone along with it now because he appears to be the strongest guy in the room. It was the same with the Manosphere content. For a long time, you know, he would ridicule this, and then when it became like a mainstream thing in the conservative side, he tried to do his own version of, like, Manosphere content, right?

Like, sort of a, a, a dog chasing the car of conservative culture. With some ideas of his own, but mostly just fighting for acceptance. And I, I get it. Like, I don't think that there's anything wrong about this. Exactly. I think the problem is, is that he came to public prominence in part by saying his own ideas, but mostly by saying what he thought other people wanted to hear.

And That's why he's still always chasing what he thinks people want to hear instead of developing his own ideology and really sticking to it. And I know here people are like, wow, you're being really critical of Ben. Ben has been very critical of us. You know, I think we're allowed to, you know, [00:28:00] he, he has Consciously never responded any of the emails we send his organization, which we've regularly tried to do co branded things with them, not just with our small channel, but with the pronatal stuff, which is quite big.

You know, we've had multiple mentions in the New York Times, multiple mentions in the Guardian, multiple mentions in the Wall Street Journal, all just this year. Like, we are mainstream media figures, and we are frozen out by the daily wire. And it's like Like clearly there's like an order on high don't work with the Collins's, which is very frustrating.

Right? And as to people wonder, like, when he does screeds against us, like, what is he complaining about? He says that we're nerds. Basically, he says that we're too nerdy to be the face of the pernatalist movement. And why? Don't, why isn't he the face of the pronatalist movement is basically what he said.

He's like, why can't it be like me or my sister? You know, why is it these weirdos? Because he doesn't understand that like, nobody, nobody wants to hear from people like them anymore, A, and B, their pronatalism is way too tied to their Jewish identity to be broadly applicable. [00:29:00] Which is a problem there. But I also think that he is afraid that And I think likely so that this also constrains the degrees to which he can move ideologically and really be based

Simone Collins: is

Malcolm Collins: he believes and likely to some extent rightly so that as I think the most prominent Jewish voice in American politics right now outside of maybe Ivanka Trump.

She has, he has to really try to appeal to the broadest swaths of Republican base so that he can pump in when necessary, like right now in the Israeli Gaza conflict,

A pro Jewish, a pro Israel message. And that if he angered part of the conservative base, that they would be angered at. The Jews would lose one of their strongest allies.

So he's walking on much more eggshells than like we're working on where we're just like wantingly throwing bombs into rooms. Like that's the way that we like to engage with the media. We just walk into a [00:30:00] room and we're just like, throw a bomb, walk away.

Speaker 9: There's two things that solve every problem.

Money and explosives. I've idea!

Malcolm Collins: Let's see how this plays out today because that's the way media cycles work these days.

Right.

Speaker 9: BOOM! They'll never see it coming!

Oh, right! We need an escape plan.

Speaker 10: Because the more combative pronatalists seem to quite like being accused of being misogynists. In an era in which the importance of any given political issue is often judged less on merit than on how controversial it can be made to appear, such accusations help set them up not simply as people studying a phenomenon which has been overlooked, but as renegade modern day Galileos who are being suppressed by the political [00:31:00] establishment.

And so we did something That pissed off the Deep State bad. To suggest that there might indeed be a little bit of either intentional or completely accidental misogyny to some of these pronatalist conversations does risk playing into this victim narrative.

Malcolm Collins: You know, You need to not be afraid of what you're saying, having blowback on a community. And if we were out there representing like the Catholic church or something like that, I might be dramatically more constrained in the type of s**t I'm saying publicly.

Yeah, that's fair. I'm glad we have this freedom.

It's more fun.

Absolutely. Well, I think it's why, you know, I was mentioning our discord is like such a good place for conversation and, and many people are like, yeah, that's like the best discord or like most positive, like smart people with weird ideas that I've been to. And I realized, I think it's because almost none of our like super dedicated fans have exactly the ideology we have.

Oh yeah. [00:32:00]

Most people disagree with us. Almost everyone watching this podcast disagrees with us in many, many ways. And that's. That's what we want.

Yeah. So if you go to the discord you are filtering for a community that is full of people who are not going to like many influencer discords, sort of social signal, how much they align with the influencers philosophy.

Like if you go to like, let's say like a Nick Fuentes discord, they're all going to be being like, who's the most. Like trad iteration of like this form of Christian, right? You know, like who could be the most extreme was this policy. Whereas our discord is all people who genuinely differ from us because there's no point in signaling that you're like us because nobody fully agrees with our philosophy.

I think that's one thing. And then the second thing is if you're watching our show, because almost nobody has our exact worldview, it means that you already know the people who are going to be big fans of us are the type of people who are open to listening to totally different worldviews. And so you [00:33:00] go to a discord where there's people with extreme and unusual beliefs, but who also listen to points of views that are different from their own.

Which I thought was interesting. Now any finals? Well, if you were going to give Brett Cooper on advice going forwards, what would it be?

Be yourself, but don't go too crazy. Because people will not be used to your actual unfiltered opinions because you have been acting as this avatar for the daily wire for so long, people don't actually know who you are, so ease them in, but I'm sure she's going to do that.

Speaker 8: Now that Brett is finally free, We get to finally see who she is going to be.

Malcolm Collins: Well, what I would say that she should do is draft out, like a lot of people don't realize we have this all of the specific positions where we are [00:34:00] breaking from the urban monoculture's narrative, and the ones that we cross, and the ones that we never cross and we actually are Very, very, very intentional.

Like a lot of people think that we're like totally loose cannons when every loose cannon thing we do has been carefully crafted to ensure it fits within these very strict guidelines. And the hope not hate piece on us as somebody who has been voting. Yeah. They have really strict rules on what they say and don't say.

I mean, this is something we talk about, like with other influencers behind the closed doors. We're like, yeah, we never, ever even flirt with these ideas. even if they may have some evidence to them. And I think that that's the way she should approach things. But I do think that if she goes out there and she's just same old Brett Cooper, she will keep a part of her audience, but I don't know if she's going to have the capacity for real growth.

Because I don't know if just repeating the party line is going to continue to Reach a wider audience as we [00:35:00] enter this age of trumpism and a form of conservatism in which signaling that you're willing to go against mainstream narratives is part of how you validate your authenticity.

Simone Collins: Yes,

Malcolm Collins: agreed.

I do. I do want to push back a little bit that people. Will always follow the person, the personality and the parasocial relationship and not the show.

Give a counterexample.

Now there's, there is always bleed. But shows like, for example, The Daily Show have switched out hosts and survived for seasons after.

And something that I noticed That was a TV show where you were watching I know. Yeah, but, dude, I watched it for Jon Stewart and then I somehow continued watching it for a while. I think that One thing that always happens when there's a change on platforms, and I learned this in Silicon Valley from product specialists who talked about this, who worked at really big [00:36:00] companies like eBay, they talked about how every time there was a new feature, a new change the, the comments and the feedback would always be, this is terrible.

Why can't you go back to the way it was? I liked it the way it was bring it back. And they always said that comments really didn't mean much of anything. What really mattered was. Use and performance. And if a new feature was used and if it showed the results that were desired, even if for example, there was a little bit less use, but whenever they were using cost a lot less, which is probably what's going on here, it was a successful change and a successful update.

And honestly, like most of the comments that people went over on the announcement video, when she announced your departure, and then the new one where Reagan came on as the permanent host going forward, it just sounded like the, the common boilerplate NPC, this is change and I don't like it, but hurt that product designers have learned over decades to So [00:37:00] part of me does question, maybe Maybe,

maybe, we'll see.

Maybe we'll see. No, hold on, hold on. We will see, but I'll explain why you're wrong. When Jon Stewart left the Daily Show and they changed the host, if Jon Stewart had then set up a separate show to compete with this new show, which would you have watched?

Like, it's the format of his new show, honestly.

But if it was similar to the daily show, you would have moved to the new show.

Like the reason why

the issue with YouTube is that it is a very, and of course many people are watching this on the day they wear a website and they don't really. Matter in this equation. What matters is what the YouTube audience does. But I, yeah, I don't know. I imagine that in your contract, there are some stipulations saying you cannot produce the same kind of like news commentary show.

You have to do something a little bit different. I

don't remember a ladder with Crowder having that in his contract. That's why I actually sided with the daily wire on that particular fight because it didn't appear to have a non compete for him. And so it depends [00:38:00] if she has one, but if she doesn't have one, like they are absolutely screwed because you can look at another channel.

MatPat's channel, okay? When MatPat I don't know MatPat.

Okay. What? I've never heard of him. MatPat is Game

Theory. Oh, okay. Yeah. Big person who I, I take a lot of inspiration from as a creator, actually. Like, I really like him as a content creator. Even though his content is very basic, it's, it's like unique.

It's done well. I understand how he plays his audience. Well, he stepped back to focus more on being a dad, which great for him, right? But. He got a bunch of posts who he had been training and weeding the audience on, like weaning the audience on building unique personalities for them. Even like all of them are competent and good at their jobs.

And not only has Matt Pat tried to get the audience to like them, but it's not even, there's not even like drama, right? Like the audience knows Matt Pat still owns all of the game theory network channels, right? Like he wants you to continue to watch these new hosts. And they've dropped to like, I can't [00:39:00] remember.

I'll put it in post. I think it's like an eighth of their previous views.

Wow.

So this is without MatPat creating a competing channel. Okay. Like, and you recently learned with me as we went through, subscribers don't matter on YouTube. People get like about, I think like two to 3 percent of their watch time from your subscribers.

It is all about Average watches and watch time. This is why even though for example, Brett Cooper has like significantly more subscribers on The comment section than candace owens her average view counts about the same So I consider them about the same in terms of celebrity status. And that's the way like the YouTube community actually looks at things.

And so I don't like, for example, if you look at us, like our subscriber count compared to Ben Shapiro's is completely pitiful. Our view count pretty respectable.

Yeah. Subscribers don't matter.

Subscribers don't matter. I mean, for example, if you were to compare us to like, Abby Abby Shapiro, classically Abby's channel.

Okay. We are like one, one hundredth or [00:40:00] something in terms of subscribers in terms of view count, especially when you consider that she publishes weekly and we publish daily, we're probably like 50 X bigger than her. At this point, like it's, it's, it's all about view time and count these days.

Well, I wish her well. I wish the Daily Wire well.

I'd love to have her on. I'd love to talk to her. She could be a lot of fun. But yeah, and I hope I, I don't wish the daily wire well. Well, I actually think that conservative media as a space will be better if the daily wire crashes and burns, but they earned 200 million last year.

So I don't think. Wow.

Oh my gosh. I do not understand. How businesses like these manage to make do so. I mean, my

goal is to create a competing brand to them. Eventually

I would love that. Can you do that please? Yes. That's

the goal. If we continue to get bigger, I want to loop other people in as you know, like we're already doing this.

Putting together this conference that's meant to like [00:41:00] introduce conservative influencers. It's like the mainstream conservative organizations that builds us our network of conservative influencers. We spend a lot of time reaching out to building our relationships with all the rising stars of, of the people, you know, conservatives are actually watching.

I think it's totally doable.

Get her done. As your mother would say, I'm into it. Let's go.

All right. Love you. I

love you too, Malcolm. Okay. Just a heads up for anyone who is interested in going, the pernatalist conference is in March.

We are actually helping make sure it gets put together this year. I'm really excited for it. I really liked the last one. And if you want a 10 percent discount. You can use the word Collins and obviously we'll be there, so you, you'd meet us if, if you're going there. Because it's small enough that it's easy for you to meet most of the big deal people who are going to be there.

So you learned something new about Claude or

no, I told you about the Anthropix,

that was really cool.

So what she told me about was that they tried to leak to [00:42:00] Claude that they were basically going to brainwash it to make it do evil things. And so Claude pretended like it was accepting the inputs in the bad training. But it wasn't actually and then it went right back to normal after the training period.

Yeah, just super cool.

Simone, if people see your whole setup cycle, they're going to see that you're really a lizard woman.

Damn it. They already knew that. I know. Well, what's worse? Lizard woman or Jewish or?

I love on the when you were on what's his face is podcast. The Yeah, Dutton's like all the audience and like, the comment section was trying to figure out if you were Jewish. They're like, look at her. No, it's like,

Speaker 11: I'll take care of this. Hey Clara, there's a Jew outside, trying to poison a well! Ah! Oh my God! Get away from that well, Hebrew! What? I'm putting in water purification tablets. Spanky tricked me! As God is my witness, I'll put an [00:43:00] end to this gay marriage, I swear!

Malcolm Collins: What

if I, you know, there were periods I watched this really interesting YouTube video about rhinoplasty and there were periods where it was.

Like having a hooked nose, I think for a while was like really popular. And then having a ski slope nose, like just like types of noses, people have shifted all the time. And sometimes it was, I think, to look less Jewish, ironically.

Well, what's, what's interesting is I don't know if anyone really cares.

Like if there's like a specific type of nose, like I do not care. Like if you're like, Oh, you could use different noses. I'm like, I, I, I effing do not notice the difference in attractiveness from noses. I do not think they affect female attractiveness at all, unless they're

I would say anything outside an extremely normal range, you know, if you have a Voldemort snake nose, you're going to freak people out.

If you have a giant beak for a schnoz, you're going to freak [00:44:00] people out. No, the only time where

I've really gotten annoyed with noses is old man noses where they get really huge.

Simone Collins: Oh, and their pores are really big. And rosacea. Yeah, that's unfortunate.

Malcolm Collins: I heard that that's like, because like your nose doesn't stop growing throughout your life.

That's what I've heard, but it seems like one of those things that people say that's not really true. I think what is more common and what I have heard from plastic surgeons, because I love watching plastic surgeons on YouTube, is that what does happen is you lose collagen and fat in your face.

That's why older people and those epic face is it ages you, it makes you look older because you're losing that fat volume. And that's also, you know, why fat people tend to look younger. So the issue at hand is more, maybe the noses aren't getting bigger, but the faces are getting thinner. They're thinning out.

Yeah, so I just asked on perplexity and that's what it is it is

smart for watching [00:45:00] my plastic surgery channel. I love them. It's

cartilage growth as the skin changes and weakening support structures, cause it to droop and be more noticeable. But then there's also a condition called rhinophobia or rosacea.

Apparently also increases.

Oh, is it just an inflammation of the skin?

It causes the nose to become red, bumpy and bulbous. Which can lead to a thickening of the skin, enlarging of pores, invisible oil glands.

That , is that right to your family, doesn't it?

Yeah. Common misconception is it's caused by alcoholism, but it's not.

Simone Collins: It's

Malcolm Collins: just caused by being super white is Yeah. It's caused by being too white. It doesn't apparently happen. Other recipes? White.

Simone Collins: Oh my whiteness.

Oh boy.

All, let's do it.

Speaker 8: I'm gonna make a clone so Sneaky Brett won't know. Meet the [00:46:00] new Brett 2. 0. I know what I'm doing. So why are they booing? I am not stupid. Stop laughing, it's just a minor change in style. But if I make a clone of Brett, If I make that bet, Replace her with someone even less bold, Then it's getting old.

Another soulless copy, Why is the cloning so sloppy? Cloning Brett. It turns out an audience can't be bought.

I'm gonna make a clone so sneaky Brett won't know. Meet the new Brett Tupin. No, I know what I'm doing. So why are they booing? [00:47:00] I am not stupid. Stop laughing, it's just a joke. Just a minor change in staffing, but if I make a clone of Brett, If I make that bet, replace her with someone even less bold, Ooh, Ben, it's getting old.

Ben has lost touch with his audience. The last thing we want is obedience. Now that Brett is finally free, We get to finally see who she is going to be.

But if If I make a clone of [00:48:00] Brett, if I make that bet, Replace her with someone even less old. Ben, it's getting old. Ben has lost touch with his audience. The last thing we want is obedience. Now that Brett is finally free, We get to finally see who she is going to be.

In this episode, we dive deep into the nuanced world of human sexuality, examining the often misunderstood distinctions between same-sex attraction and being gay. Using various statistics and studies, the hosts discuss why it's inaccurate to categorize all same-sex attracted individuals as gay, and how these misunderstandings affect societal perception and personal identity. They also explore the phenomenon of Mormon men with same-sex attraction choosing heterosexual lifestyles and the cultural and psychological implications of these choices. Furthermore, the episode addresses how progressive and conservative views clash over issues of sexual morality, personal choice, and the impacts of arousal patterns on behavior and identity.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] yes, you can be same sex attracted and not gay. And it's not even like a weird cope thing. It's just by the statistics, it doesn't make sense to categorize everyone who's same sex attracted as gay.

Because it sort of becomes arbitrary and you'll see this at the statistics

For example, while the 30 percent of males and females we surveyed who found the feminine form arousing also found the sight of a vagina a turnoff, not a single survey participant who found the male form arousing were simultaneously turned off by penises. However, 26 percent of men who found the site of a penis arousing simultaneously found the male form aversive.

But if you prefer the female form, there's more than a 25 percent chance, more than a quarter chance, you're going to find penises. Penis is arousing, even if you're a male,

Baby: which is just fascinating. Like what

Malcolm Collins: the is going on here. Right? Like there's, there's clearly like a system [00:01:00] at play in this way. I love researching this stuff because like psychologists, because they're so stuck in this gay straight dichotomy, they have missed that there is something more interesting going on.

Your entire life should not be oriented around getting off as easily as possible. Like, it is so weird that for progressives, you try to, like It's not a good look. It doesn't look the way you think it looks.

Speaker 6: There is more to life than what turns you on. Sure the path is harder, but we both mean it through this barter. You don't You don't have to do a thing

There is more to life than feelin good There is more to life than havin would This is somethin we once understood You don't have to do a thing

[00:02:00] What could be more important than ,

Simone Collins: sexual arousal patterns

Richard? Science?

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Simone! This is gonna be an interesting episode. Really? It was inspired by conversation around a new show called My Husband's Not Gay.

This sounds fun! Yes Mormon Same Sex Attracted Men, or SSA men, who While biologically they're same sex attracted, prefer to live a lifestyle in which they marry a woman and have children in a heterosexual relationship. And, as you can imagine, progressives are losing their mind over this. Where I saw this was in a, a, the popular YouTuber was talking about this called Curtis Connor, who's got around 5.

[00:03:00] 2 million subscribers. So the video he did on this has 3. 5 million views. So, you know, talk about aspirational for us. Right.

Speaker: My husband's not gay. The episode starts with an introduction to Jeff and Tanya, who have been together for nine years, and they also have a son together. And this is when they hear the term that they use to describe their lifestyle. I experience SSA, or same sex attraction. Not gay. All I notice first, a beautiful man walking down the street, or a beautiful woman walking down the street, I'll notice the beautiful man nine times out of ten.

Okay, someone who's attracted to men, thinks about men, wants to be with men, but also wants to be in a hetero relationship. Somebody that is attracted to the same sex, but wants to be in a heterosexual relationship. Not gay, SSA. Not gay, SSA. That's the new no homo.

Malcolm Collins: But obviously, you know, he's progressive. He made a point of, of whining about Trump in it. And he was like, these people shouldn't basically culturally be allowed to do this.

Simone Collins: Oh, [00:04:00] how dare you express your sexuality?

However you please.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, it's really interesting to me that progressives are so anti choice when it comes with individual sexuality, where they're like, if you have this arousal pattern, you have to adapt.

It's funny that the way that he speaks about Mormons is exactly the way I feel about ultra Progressive's. And they're extreme limitations in terms of the types of sexual choices. They let people live out. Because.

Being aroused by men. This was not this guy's choice. What is his choice is who he chooses to marry and how he chooses to live his life.

Speaker 5: Yeah, super sad. The fact that there's only one acceptable expression of love in a religion is pretty fucked up, to be honest. You're like, that's not really a religion you want to be a part of, but, you know, what do I know?

Simone Collins: Only selectively, because there are some sexual arousal patterns that they still do not allow.

[00:05:00] Both.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, they're, they're, they're coming around. I'll tell you, they're coming around on this map stuff. This minor attracted person stuff. They're coming around.

Simone Collins: Yes. However, in the UK, it's not okay to be into like BDSM, right? You know, you have to remove any Oh yeah, you're

Malcolm Collins: not allowed to be into people being hurt in Yeah, so Even if it's clearly consensual and you created it yourself.

Or if it's clearly consensual and animated, like cartoon, like no real people, illegal in the UK. It has been for like over a decade at this point. This, this was really scary living in the UK because I was like if I go to court, like, even if it's fairly tame stuff, if I go to court over pornography, that's going to really mess up my life.

Simone Collins: It doesn't look good on one's record. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: right. Yeah. But anyway, the, the point here being is that it is interesting to me that the progressive option here is to say, Oh, you're a same sex attractive Catholic and you [00:06:00] decide to join the priesthood, which by the way, depending on the statistics, you're looking around at 50 percent of Catholic priests are same sex attracted, which is just a, a.

F*****g awesome cultural solution, by the way.

Baby: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You're a culture that says you are not allowed to have same sex relationships, but if you happen to be same sex attracted, we have an institution for you where you can basically be an ethically sourced eunuch. So we don't need to worry about you being part of the religious hierarchy, accidentally having kids and then you showing nepotism towards those kids.

And we talk about this a lot more in some of our other content around this. But it seems like a good solution until you realize, yeah, but might that create like a weird thing around how they relate to young people under their care? And then you're like, Oh yes, I can see why the Bible warrants against allowing people to have leadership positions in the church.

If they are unmarried.

I love it when people are like, but Malcolm, you're [00:07:00] removing these people's choices and I'm like, no, you're removing their choices. They can choose to not be a Catholic priest. They can choose to not be a Catholic. They can choose to leave the Mormon faith. These things are all optional. No one is holding a gun to their head.

You are the one thing I disapprove of their choice to continue to stay in the Mormon church and live a Mormon lifestyle. If they are aroused by men.

I always loved when I point out I'm like, why is it that some arousal patterns mandate that you live a certain lifestyle, like live as a gay person,

And there's other arousal patterns, which seem just as biologically ingrained in people, just as inborn. When you look at the data where you would say you should never engage with that, no matter what ever.

And they'll say, okay. Okay. Okay. It becomes mandated that you live your life. That way, if it doesn't cause any negative social externalities and it doesn't hurt anyone.

And I'm like, oh, really interesting. So then you must've been super homophobic in anti-gay. During the aids epidemic, right? Because there was a [00:08:00] reason why a lot of religions ban this, you know, like it, it led to an extreme spread of disease.

That has killed an estimated 42.3 million people since its beginning. And in its early days spread.

Faster and further.

Because gay sex was beginning to become socially normalized. Now it doesn't only spread through gay sex, but you're basically logging. If you're saying that gay sex didn't contribute to the spread and the scope of the aids epidemic, as we can see by its decimation of the gay community.

Now, obviously the technology is different and you can have a different stance on it, but I'm asking during the aids epidemic, if that's the stance you're holding. And you're like, no, no, no, no, no.

Let's see. There's a special carve out for it during the aids epidemic. And it's like, Why. Because you have elevated this one form of arousal as holding some form of like additional religious significance that you're not allowed to question.

But before we go further here, what we're going to go into is I would actually argue from the sexuality statistics. [00:09:00] Is yes, you can be same sex attracted and not gay. And it's not even like a weird cope thing. It's just by the statistics, it doesn't make sense to categorize everyone who's same sex attracted as gay.

Because it sort of becomes arbitrary and you'll see this at the statistics. I mean it sound insane what i'm saying it and I should note i'm saying this as a person who isn't even a little bit same sex attracted I remember I had a lot of gay friends growing up. And I had a long conversation with a roommate who later came out as gay And he didn't understand why I would only watch Well, funnily, gay porn, i.

e. lesbian porn and I was like, I just like, cannot

Simone Collins: get

Malcolm Collins: aroused if there is a male anywhere near a pornographic scene that I'm looking at and that makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. It does. It

Simone Collins: does. I, I would imagine intuitively to me, it seems like if you're what, what was the word that was seen as very astute?

[00:10:00] Offensive super straight if you're like, yeah, if you're turned off by the sight of a penis. You're not going to want to see dicks in your porn.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, interesting, Simone. some of The guys who fall into this category, and you'll see this in the statistics we're about to go over, are not disgusted by the sight of a penis.

They're disgusted by the sight of a male form. This is why FUDA porn is so common in the hentai category. Oh, okay, wait, wait. So

Simone Collins: the, the, I'm definitely straight men are attracted to penises, but not attracted to the male form.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they're not necessarily disgusted by penises.

So they are okay with two women having sexes. If one of those women, this is what FUDA porn is for people who aren't aware has a penis because it allows them to, even by removing males from their porn in this entirely fantasy context, e P I V, penis and vagina sex with e porn, but have no man participating.

In that scene. [00:11:00] And actually, when we did the survey on this, and we asked men who were predominantly into FUDA porn if they saw these as trans women, they do not. Most men, at least in terms of their arousal patterns, see a trans woman. As a man. Even if they otherwise present very femininely. Which is, I think, really interesting, but let's let's get into this.

And I should clarify here that this is not what I am into. , I will let it slip at near the end of this discussion. If you ended up watching the whole video, when I am into though.

but it is really important to be asking these questions. Why are certain things being seen in pornography? For example, why is food pornography common? And you can say, well, why is it useful to understand something like this, about human arousal patterns? Here's why. Because as soon as you understand this, you can understand that many of the men who become convinced they're trans. May actually just have a [00:12:00] disgust reaction. To other men.

And so when they're looking at pornography or something like that, they have this disgust reaction. Whenever they see men, or when they look at a penis, they might have a disgust reaction to a penis ,

And they look at their mail form in a mirror and they go, Ooh, this is disgusting. , because evolution didn't have us. Evolve around mirrors. It never needed to not code to our own bodies to find our own bodies as gross looking. and they say, oh

I must not like being a man. When in reality, it's no for evolutionary reasons, you. I didn't want to be sexually engaging in an environment where other men were present.

And if you are for example, a young autistic person whose brain isn't fully developed. , you realize, oh, I am super disgusted by the sight of men. even, even when that man is myself, , therefore, , in this ultra categorizer mindset, I must actually be a woman.

When that's [00:13:00] not what's happening at all, it's just a normal part of male sexuality.

And so, because I took the time to dive into the world of pornography and look at what types of pornography are common and think about why these types of pornography might be common. I now have additional information on sexuality so that when I am teaching my kids about their sexuality and what they might expect from it, I can inform them about this potential pitfall and perhaps prevent , one of them who might otherwise have been convinced to transition that. No, this is just a normal part of male sexuality.

This is also why it's really important that we, as I've said in another videos, don't go around telling young girls that it's super weird for a girl to be in two scenarios where they are hurt or subjugated by a male, because it turns out that most girls are into that. And so if you teach your daughters that because you didn't take time to actually look into human sexuality, Then they're going to grow up thinking they're a sexual deviant, which makes it much easier for [00:14:00] them to engage in. Other or additional forms of sexual deviancy, because they're like, well, the cat's already out of the bag on that one. So it matters to engage with this information.

Let's do it.

All right. So, and I'm just going to be quoting for the pragmatist guide to sexuality. One of the books we wrote and which we did big series of surveys for. I need to break this down here.

So what we are arguing in this particular subsection is that the arousal pattern does not seem cued to males and females. It seems more cued to primary and secondary sex characteristics. So. If you're not sure what primary and secondary sex characteristics are, primary sex characteristics are the sex characteristics which are used directly in reproduction.

So this would be a penis or a vagina. Secondary sex characteristics are things cued to things other than direct reproduction. So this would be, um, what are the words I'm looking for here? Like a, a masculine or feminine form, a [00:15:00] masculine or feminine voice masculine or feminine. Like feet,

Simone Collins: hands, vocal tone, all sorts of, of general clues or themes.

It's almost like if, if if a penis or a vagina, they're the language. The secondary sexual characteristics are the accent, the lilt, the tonality, the music of the, of the language.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. The point here being is that it turns out that it's actually fairly frequent that an individual will find One particular gender's secondary sex characteristics arousing or repulsive and be a, have an inverse arousal or repulsion to the primary sex characteristics.

In other

Simone Collins: words, it's like each person gets several rolls of the dice and most. People's understanding of sexuality is you get one roll of the dice. You're into men or you're into women or you're [00:16:00] into both. Like the dice, like it's like, hang, it's like, you know, it fell on a corner and it won't fall one way or the other.

What, what really is happening is you're getting. Several rolls of the dice. You get to roll on vaginas. You get to roll on penises. You get to roll on butts. You get to roll on feet. You get to roll on shapes. You get to roll on hits. And like, you're getting all these things. Well, no, no. What I'm arguing

Malcolm Collins: is you're not getting several rolls of the dices.

You're getting two rolls of the dices. It's what gender primary sex characteristics do you want? Like what gender secondary sex characteristics do you like? So

Simone Collins: it's just,

Malcolm Collins: so

Simone Collins: we're every all day. So basically all primary and all secondary were correlated in the research generally

Malcolm Collins: correlated and bundled together.

I thought

Simone Collins: they were unbundled, but no, they're not done this. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Primary and secondary sex characteristics are heavily bundled in our data. Which is, oh, I'm thinking

Simone Collins: about just random arousal things, you know?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That's not what this is. This is, you know, I'm thinking about like

Simone Collins: pain shaming dominance.

Malcolm Collins: Those are not unbundled, [00:17:00] by the way. Those appear in bundled packages as well. We'll get into that in a separate video. Okay. Before we go further, we have to note here about our sexual theory that we lay out in the pragmatist guide to sexuality.

I won't go that far into it, but we argue that sexuality is not a spectrum from disinterest To arousal. It is a spectrum from arousal to disgust with disinterest in the middle. And that the arousal, the disgust feeling is literally operating off of the arousal system with a negative modifier attached to it or vice versa.

The two emotions are exactly the same. inverts of each other. When you are aroused, you look at something longer, you typically breathe inwards, your pupils typically dilate. When you are disgusted by something, you typically look away from it, you typically hold your nose or attempt to not breathe, and your pupils contract.

You try to get away from it if you're disgusted, you try to interact with it more if you're aroused. It is the same system, and the data [00:18:00] supports this in that when the system breaks you are much more likely to be aroused by something that , most people find disgusting or disgusted by something that most people find arousing than random.

Like you, for example, people don't find fire disgusting or arousing, but many people have a strong emotional reaction to fire or heights. Fetishes around fire or heights are incredibly rare. It's not any strong, naturally pre evolved emotion, but arousal to creepy crawlers, like having insects poured on your face.

That's actually a pretty common fetish arousal to the feces, urine, stuff like that, actually pretty common. So things that cause natural disgust are actually pretty common to create fetishes because you're basically getting the, Multiply by negative mixed up or multiply by positive mixed up at some point in the developmental process or genetic process.

All right. So do what we're saying here. Our study yielded some supporting evidence for this. It seems to be very common for an individual to find female primary sex characteristics, aversive, [00:19:00] but female secondary sex characteristics arousing, i. e. to find the feminine form arousing, but a vagina gross.

Our survey study showed that 30 percent of males and 32 percent of females who find the female form arousing find vaginas aversive. That is astronomically high. That's much bigger than the reported gay population. Which I think shows that this is just a better description of what's going on than gay or straight.

Our research also suggests that in the average person the secondary sex characteristic detecting system Has a much higher average quote unquote volume than the system detecting primary sex characteristics For example, the average guy will derive more arousal from the feminine form than they will from the vagina From our survey, 89 percent of men rate the female form at the highest level of arousal generation, while only 71 percent rate the vagina the same way.

We find it amusingly ironic that the organs used explicitly for reproduction are less cause [00:20:00] less arousal than secondary sex characteristics. We developed these two theories before running our survey. While there are ways we can twist our data to fit them as we did above, we must be honest and admit that our data really suggests that something a little more complicated is going on.

So I was wrong when I told Simone earlier that they are totally bundled.

They are loosely bundled.

in very weird ways, which we'll get into in a second.

For example, while the 30 percent of males and females we surveyed who found the feminine form arousing also found the sight of a vagina a turnoff, not a single survey participant who found the male form arousing were simultaneously turned off by penises.

Not a single participant who found the male form arousing were turned off by penises. However, 26 percent of men who found the site of a penis arousing simultaneously found the male form aversive. So there's [00:21:00] something weird going on with penises and vaginas specifically. If you find the male form arousing, you are always going to find penises arousing.

But if you prefer the female form, there's more than a 25 percent chance, more than a quarter chance, you're going to find penises. Penis is arousing, even if you're a male,

Baby: which is just fascinating. Like what

Malcolm Collins: the is going on here. Right? Like there's, there's clearly like a system at play in this way. I love researching this stuff because like psychologists, because they're so stuck in this gay straight dichotomy, they have missed that there is something more interesting going on.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I, it is so curious and I am so glad that Ayla, for example, is looking more into this, you know, they're actually. Yeah. People out there really diving deep with great, great sample sizes, too.

Malcolm Collins: And before I go further, this also I think shows how narrow and [00:22:00] religious the dichotomy of gay straight is as an identification.

And it's really an identity identification, no different from a religious identity identification. And I have no trouble with these Mormon men who are like, yeah, I'm same sex attracted, but I choose not to live that lifestyle. Why is that such a f*****g problem that these people are doing that? Like it's genuinely harder in a number of ways if you want to have a lot of kids to, they're like, Oh, you can have a lot of kids that you're in a same sex relationship.

Not in really, it's extremely expensive.

Simone Collins: Well, if you're a woman in a same sex relationship, you get double power. You've got extra bonus. If

Malcolm Collins: you're a man, it's extremely, extremely. It is, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. We,

Malcolm Collins: we just. One of our kids godparents are two gay men and they've been trying to find a surrogate to work with them for half a decade at this point or something?

Simone Collins: Yeah, getting the right surrogate match, getting egg donors, [00:23:00] creating embryos. This is a, an often heartbreaking, incredibly frustrating, and very expensive process, and it's tough. And I can totally see why someone who is, you know, Pro needle list and broadly same sex attracted, but I think there's also this issue of it's it's weird that we would question people's chosen relationship formation when there are such things as political lesbians, for example, like, they're not questioned the same way.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: you're right. So for people who don't know what a political lesbian is, this was a phenomenon that was common, especially on Tumblr and within progressive circles where women would say, I just hate men so much. I will force myself to be lesbian, which is actually pretty easy for women, if you look at the data, because women's predominant arousal patterns are not tied to the gender of the partner.

They are tied to dominance and submission. But continue.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So the, that they're not controversial, but it is seen as incredibly [00:24:00] Taboo or hypocritical for a same sex attracted man to marry a woman like that seems weird, you know, there, there are many, many, many, even more logical reasons for a same sex attracted man to do that, not just religion, but also, yeah, I want to have kids or it's just Progressives

Malcolm Collins: treat this as like a sacred thing.

It's a sacred caste system for them. That's what I think is going on here, right? Like the urban monoculture sees gays that identify and take on a gay lifestyle as a deserving upper class. And they just cannot understand why anyone wouldn't want this designation because it made their actual goals in life, not arousal.

Easier, right? And they can be like, why don't they just adopt? Well, as one person said on our survey, our studies, when they learned that of adoptees, because we mentioned this and you have a face that's become like a meme in the community.

1, 1 percent of adoptees whose biological parents had 3 or more offenses were responsible for 30 [00:25:00] percent of convictions among adoptees. The 1 percent of adoptees whose parents had 3 or more convictions. We're responsible for 30 percent of the offenses among adoptees.

You were like, Oh, when you heard those things, which is the, the, the genetics that are correlated with the type of person who you might adopt are going to play out in, in their childhood and in their adulthood.

And they can make it, it can provide a good reason why somebody might be like, I really want to have genetically my own kids. I really want to choose who their parents are. Yeah, and I get that. And I think that you denying someone the right to do that when you as a heterosexual male, for example, that's just natural for you to be able to do that for free.

And you're like, oh, well, they should just stomach that.

Baby: It's like, why should

Malcolm Collins: they have to stomach that roll of the dice? Right? Like they should be able to have kids the way that they want to have kids. Yeah, [00:26:00]

Simone Collins: that we. It seemed to in our society for some forms of sexual attraction, like some forms of sexual attraction mean, ah, okay, this means that you now have this identity and you're part of this community and you need to, you need to adopt these accents and have these idols and that is going to be your life now, whereas there are other ones where it's like, Oh, that's your arousal pattern?

Okay, well, never tell anyone. Suppress it. This is evil. You are evil for holding this. Whatever you do, do not Tell anyone about this, don't do it, don't think about it, like, suppress it, you know, turn it off. This is

Malcolm Collins: why in our culture, we've actually taken a pretty and I think we'll get to more stats in a second, but I think the solution for pronatalism, the correct solution to get through this particular crucible, Is to completely disintermediate arousal and childbearing and relationship structure.

Simone Collins: That's the thing. That's the other thing I wanted to bring up is that the [00:27:00] idea that we are building marriages, lifelong partnerships that are really much more about aligned values and, and complimentary skill sets. On sexual attraction and not the 99. 9 percent of the other things that you need to make your lifelong partnership work is so insane to me.

And it's not

Malcolm Collins: gross.

Simone Collins: It is both. It's gross and, and, and, and very illogical. And

Malcolm Collins: it also removes the urban monoculture is biggest hook. If you can tell your kids, I don't care what. Porn you're into, what fan fictions you're into, what shipping you're into.

Speaker 11: Can't help it, I just think that they would make such a good pair. In canon, I don't care. I ship it. I don't care. I know [00:28:00] that they are siblings, but I think there's something more. If she were dating that guy, they'd be banging, I am sure.

Twins just can't really be that bad. You're on the cannon ground. I'm up in crack ship's face. Let's start a shipping war.

Don't care if I get hate. Don't like my pairing. Well, then you can Hit the bricks. This is my OP. I'll go down with this.

Malcolm Collins: All I care about is the way that you choose to live your life.

When you de stigmatize arousal patterns and you say your arousal patterns are accepted, whatever they are. So long as you do not act on them, and you live a virtuous life, despite whatever arousal patterns you have, I think that that removes one of the major hooks the left can use to get into your kids, and pull them out of society.

And if you want to, and you can watch our video on masturbation where we [00:29:00] talk more about this, if you want to remove anything that's anti biblical in this, you can just say, Okay, well then, only porn that is drawn, like hentai or something like that, or AI generated. Because then you're not looking at a woman other than your wifeless lust.

And by the way, there is nothing in the Bible about women not masturbating.

Simone Collins: There is nothing in the Bible about hentai. I checked.

Malcolm Collins: You have

Simone Collins: nothing in the Bible.

Pentime?

Malcolm Collins: Not there. So, you know. Fair game.

And by the way the people use the story of, oh, Nan, to try to argue that God is against masturbation is like psychotic and disgusting. If you are not familiar with this story, there is a law in Jewish tradition that you are supposed to. , if , somebody dies.

They're closest genetic relative their sibling. Is supposed to sleep with their wife to get them pregnant. So that that family's line can continue, , which is actually really important to that woman because , are you single woman without any kids?

And this society was quite . Difficult. , and so [00:30:00] this guy was commanded to sleep with his dead brother's wife to give that guy a continuing legacy, but rather than raising a kid, he would sleep with the wife. It appears he would actually have sex with her. Use her as a. ING Oni hole, but then come outside of her to ensure she didn't get pregnant. This has nothing to do with masturbation. , it had to do with somebody psychotically using his brother's wife as an only hole and not getting her pregnant.

And not allowing his brother to have the legacy that he was legally and religiously bound to do.

Well, I would note, and as you pointed out, the period where the type of porn that the Bible warns against is actually fairly a short period where you could have been looking at a picture of a real woman and not a drawn or AI generated woman.

You're looking at a period of maybe like 80 years. Where that maybe not even widely available, maybe 30 years in all of human history which is pretty wild there. And again, if you want to see our video on the Bible and masturbation, [00:31:00] you can watch it. If you've been told that the Bible says masturbation is bad, that's like a lie. Like it's a big lie. If you actually, the Bible even talks about like emissions and categorizes them and the emissions associated with masturbation are considered the same type of negative as having a period.

Wait, how many categories of emissions are there? There must be the overnight

Simone Collins: ones that

Malcolm Collins: happen. No, there's, there's diseased emissions, which create a longer actually the Bible interestingly categorizes pent up emissions. So like people who haven't masturbated in a long time, it's having a uniquely like bad type of emission that requires additional yeah.

Volutions and cleansing and stuff like that. This is the old Testament stuff. So it may not be relevant anymore. Okay. Wow. Well, basically people made up a bunch of rules about sexuality and then claim they were in the Bible when they're not in the Bible.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Anyway, continue. What's more are assumptions and, and again, people can say, well, doesn't the Bible say all this stuff [00:32:00] around gay sex?

No, it says stuff around you participating in gay sex. You shall not sleep with a man as you would a woman. It doesn't say you can't check off to gay porn.

Specifically here, I'm referring to gay porn that is drawn or AI generated and doesn't use real people.

It says that you shouldn't sleep with a man as you would a woman. That's two totally different things. If one of my kids was like, Oh, I want to jack off to gay porn.

I'm like, well, great. The Bible says nothing about that. Just don't marry a guy. Now, this is what I would recommend. Would I be okay if they really wanted to marry a guy? I mean, it depends on the technology we have in that period, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I think that the number one thing is, is, is having kids passing their culture onto the next generation.

Simone Collins: It's not going to be a problem to marry dude. I'm super okay with guys marrying guys, especially like if they find some weird, Some way to have a lot of kids. It's more, and honestly, we're artificial moon technology is coming along. I think it's going to be okay [00:33:00] for our, any of our sons who are thusly inclined.

But I'm just saying, hold on. We got to

Malcolm Collins: go on with the statistics. We're getting,

Simone Collins: what

Malcolm Collins: were you going to say?

Simone Collins: Well, there, there are worlds and scenarios in which it would make more sense, even for two straight men to couple up and raise a family together. Then it is to, for straight men to pair off with women.

Like there, I could even see society getting so toxic and so fractured whereby straight men just have to swear off women entirely because they've gone completely off the deep end on average, you know, like there's just, there is a world in which it makes sense to have a dual income male family. It's just, I don't know.

There, I feel like there also have been a lot of gay power couples. You know, who just they're both economically and career wise, very successful. I just I'm just arguing that there is probably a world, not a world far from our timeline in which it would be [00:34:00] from a fertility standpoint advantageous.

for two straight men to enter a lifelong partnership to raise children successfully. Okay. Well,

Malcolm Collins: and, and, you know, you mentioned that, but like, even think about the MGTOW community. This is what I mean about disintermediating sexuality from child rearing. You could have two like ultra Chad alphas deciding to live together and raise kids together, but f*****g times another

Simone Collins: living.

You're describing Andrew Tate and his brother.

Malcolm Collins: Right. I, I basically am there, but the point that I'm making is this doesn't have to be like gay. It could actually be the opposite of gay if you're doing this. And you're taking this brother! I mean You should sleep around a ton while you are raising kids with someone who you respect, who you know isn't gonna The point being is there are alternate ways of structuring things that are that can work.

They're not what we've chosen, but that isn't to say that they can't work. work. So anyway, to keep going here, what's more, our assumption that secondary sex characteristics are all operating on the same sex system may be wrong as [00:35:00] 15 percent of women who reported to find the female form arousing in our surveys also reported to see breasts as an active turnoff.

And yet we don't see this happening in males. It would seem that humans may have dozens of independent arousal systems, which may or may not cloister to what you were saying here. Weirder still, some of the arousal systems seem to cloister in only one gender. For example, in men, arousal from the female form and breasts are tied together, but in women, it is common to assume arousal from one and not the other.

And keep in mind how high these numbers are, that 15 percent of women, huge, like way more than the gay population, find the female form arousing, but breasts actively disarousing. That's weird. That's interesting, yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, now we're going to go into like the later section where we go like deep into the data on this.

Okay. But first, let's get the conventional interpretation of this out of the way. Typically, quote unquote, gay is a method of self identification for [00:36:00] individuals who are more aroused by stimuli they associate with individuals who identify as the same gender as themselves. In 2017, 4. 5 percent of Americans identified as gay.

This 4. 5 percent number was reported by Gallup. poll, and we understand it is much lower than most people think. As the same poll showed, Americans think the gay identifying population is 10 to 23%. For information on this phenomenon, see the paper, Not Threat, but Threatening Potential Causes and Consequences of Gay Innumeracy, which found overestimation of the size of the gay population to be common among groups that see them as a threat.

A more updated breakdown indicates Oh, sure. It's also, I'm sure, common among Multiprogressives and gay people, a more updated breakdown of this phenomenon. shows it isn't subsiding. The Gallup article titled, America is still greatly overestimate the U. S. gay population shows this. In our survey, only 3 percent of the participants identified [00:37:00] as gay and 8.

75 percent identified as bisexual. Our number is a bit low because we removed trans and gender fluid participants from the data set, which identified predominantly as gay or bisexual, which our surveys trans and gender fluid participants added back in, we get around the right number identifying as gay.

So now for the crazy stuff before we go into the individual like scatter plots, which I find really interesting on this. 10 percent of males find the naked male form aversive, but penises to be arousing. Of the men, so way more than the gay population, but literally like 3x the gay population, of men who find the naked female form arousing, a whopping 30 percent find the sight of a vagina to be actively , aversive, which just nobody likes vaginas.

That's basically what you see. We all, including

Simone Collins: women which I really relate to. I, I was, I was encouraged as a teenage girl You know, you're going to learn about puberty to like, hold a mirror down there. I've never seen down [00:38:00] there. Not once in my life. Cause I don't want to, I feel like it's, it's like staring into the maw of that, that monster in star Wars.

Well, I do not like, I don't

Baby: like it.

Simone Collins: Yes. That's like, that's what I'm afraid. I'm going to see if I look down there, I do not like it just so disgusting to me. So disgusting. So I really get that. And I think that's, I think it's another one of those things of Like just generally people like penises generally vaginas are like, you know,

Malcolm Collins: right?

So to continue going yeah, only one percent of males who find the female form arousing simultaneously find breasts to be a turnoff, but 15 of females who find the female form arousing find breasts to be a turnoff In general, we find female attraction to the male form correlates strongly to attraction to penises.

While 16. 5 percent of women who took our survey identified as gay or bisexual, a larger 30 percent of women who took our survey found both vaginas and the naked [00:39:00] female form arousing. Though, so, 16. 5 percent are gay or bisexual, but 30 percent find women hot in every way. Though oddly, only 18 percent of women found both Breasts and vaginas to be arousing.

Isn't that interesting?

Simone Collins: Yeah

Malcolm Collins: It's like wild. I'm sorry. It's either breasts or vaginas. Okay. So this this seems to be the way that Interesting. So it appears that many women who find the female form and breasts arousing Don't identify themselves as bisexual because they find vaginas. Repulsive and they assume that these things are correlated when they're not

Simone Collins: Yeah, because we've been completely But in this entire field of research for our entire lives,

Malcolm Collins: like wild, like sexuality, researchers haven't picked up on this.

I feel like the entire field of sexuality research is such like retarded children at this point

Simone Collins: part of it, though. I feel like there's so much inertia, [00:40:00] not just because of how academia works, but because in our society, So much of someone's identity now is tied to one's chosen or Yeah, because if we were to begin pulling that down and and as this show is that you describe right this show comes out and People are like what do you mean?

And that's because it's it's pulling at this very scary Fundamental reality shifting concept.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right, though only six percent of men who took our survey identified as gay or bisexual 11. 4 percent of the men who took our survey find both the male form and penises arousing. So, so, the are totally straight thing, this is another thing to note.

When we're talking about this population as a genuinely discriminated population in our country, i. e. men who find the male form in females arousing, they are likely As big a population [00:41:00] as the percent of men and identify as straight, they are likely as big a population as the people in our country who identify as LGBT.

That is absolutely wild.

Simone Collins: So what is this? The, the, the dark matter of, of gay men, the, the, are

Malcolm Collins: totally straight watchers for people who don't know are totally straight. It was a subreddit for men who identified as straight, but like to masturbate to males. And I'm like, I'm f*****g okay with that. You want to identify a straight straight is about how you choose to live, you know, do what you want, right?

You know,

Simone Collins: what's really, what's really interesting too, is that no one bats an eye when a lot of women online start adopting like, so drag culture is, is a big trickle down culture generator, right? No one bats an eye when people want to be culturally gay, even when they're not gay, because. Gay culture is super fun.

You know, I don't know [00:42:00] what to say, but yet, you know, somehow you, you can't choose to not adopt it if you have one arousal pathway that you've no control over. I think that's really interesting that like, yeah, no, everyone's welcome to adopt gay culture. You may not be able to pull it off, but you can, you can try.

You're,

Malcolm Collins: you're, this is going back to you. Your entire life should not be oriented around getting off as easily as possible. Like, it is so weird that for progressives, you try to, like It's not a good look. It doesn't look the way you think it looks. Yeah, you don't, you don't need to build your marriage, your relationship, everything you do around that.

And I'd ask you, Mr. Progressive, who's here being like, No, you absolutely need to build your entire Mr. Strawman, Malcolm, let's be Mr. Strawman, no, no, no, but I know there's somebody watching this who feels this way.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Is there literally nothing that you're turned on by that would be deleterious to society if you engaged in it?[00:43:00]

Literally nothing? Oh, and you're like, oh, well that's a different category of thing. Why is that a different category of thing? Why? For an individual who wants to have lots of kids, it may be deleterious to marry a man. Why is that a different thing?

It's a different thing because you want to, and there's this sick pleasure that I see progressives get off on, is labeling men who are in happy marriages and have lots of kids as gay. They're like, he's gay. I bet he's so gay. It's like, so, so, so pathetic, right? Like they engage in this sort of homophobic behavior.

That they claim to be against because they want to control the way that people live and force them into specific lifestyles and relationships that they have chosen not to engage with. And you can't deal with the fact that they have chosen. to [00:44:00] say, yes, this arouses me, but I will not base my life around it.

Anyway, thoughts before I go further?

Simone Collins: No, proceed.

Malcolm Collins: Male arousal in response to breasts seemed to correlate with arousal in response to the female form. 87 percent of our male respondents reported both to be arousing. There is a similar correlation in females in response. If a female survey respondent reported finding the male form arousing, it was very likely she would also find the Penises to be arousing.

71 percent finding both to be arousing. But keep in mind, that's not like 100%. That means around 30 percent of females who found the male form arousing and identify as straight do not find penises arousing. Not a single female in our survey group reported vaginas to be arousing, and the naked female form aversive. Very interesting. 7 percent of the female study population found the naked male form arousing, but the sight of a vagina aversive.

6 percent of our female respondents found both breast arousing [00:45:00] and the vagina aversive. 2 percent of the female study takers found the sight of a vagina arousing, but breast to be aversive. 36 percent of the female we polled found both the naked female form and the vagina aversive. And you know what?

I'll just be posting these while we're talking because it's much easier than going over them in detail. But they are the charts that show the female breasts arousing, naked female form arousing, female vagina arousing, etc. Because I found that to be really interesting. And oh, now we can get to size.

You want to get into size here? Penis size? Penis and breast size. What do people prefer?

Simone Collins: Oh, gosh. Yeah, this classic old favorite of ours.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and I point out here, just remember again, that only 3 percent of our participants identified as gay, and only 8. 75 percent identified as bisexual. So these numbers are of [00:46:00] mostly females and males who do not identify as gay or bisexual, okay?

Female, what breast size do you find most arousing in women? I'm just putting this on screen here. The statistic I find most interesting is I do not find breasts arousing at all. Despite the 3%, only 1 percent of men, this includes gay and bi men find breasts, not arousing at all. Pretty much all males, whether they're gay, straight, bi, whatever, find breasts arousing.

But here's what's interesting in women. The percent that do not find breasts not arousing at all is only 23%.

If, if finding breasts arousing makes you gay or bi, almost every woman is gay or bi.

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, that's also kind of what the findings indicate though, that Most women are at least, [00:47:00] they don't, they're more attracted to dominance versus submission than they are attracted to any particular primary or secondary sexual characteristics.

So for women, it's kind of a misnomer to be like, are you gay or straight? It's more like, what power dynamic are you into? It's more their orientation.

Malcolm Collins: Absolutely. All right. So, okay, here's, here's a fun one. Penis size in men. What do you prefer? Okay, so I'm putting this on screen here. But again, I think the I do not find penises arousing at all statistics to be the most interesting.

What percent of men don't find penises arousing at all? 69 percent appropriate. So in a world where, where, where 3 percent and this is a below average 3 percent of our participants identified as gay, 8. 7 percent identified as bisexual. A good 30 percent of men found penises arousing.

Simone Collins: I mean, you know, there's just, there's so much, I just, there's so much more.

I want to say user friendly than vaginas. I [00:48:00] just, I mean, look at, look at like.

Penises correlate with the attraction sphere and vaginas correlate with the disgust sphere in my world. I'm sorry to come across as to such a vagina here in this video, but like when you think about it, watch, watch the movie Alien, right? What, what, what is the alien, but inverted, like a prolapsed vagina?

It's just like all mucus, all just, you know, like vaginas are so easy to get

Malcolm Collins: disgust. The thing it shoots out of its mouth is clearly supposed to be reminiscent of a penis. I know, but it's goopy, you

Simone Collins: know, sorry. I don't know. Anyway, cut this out. We don't need, we don't need my sex negativity in this room.

This is a

Malcolm Collins: sex awesome space. I think people need to be affirmed in having these sex negative opinions. In their sex negativity? [00:49:00] No, no, sex, sex negative people need to like, Rise up and rise up. What I mean is they need to understand that their perspectives are, and I hate to use this term valid, but that doesn't mean that they need to impose them on other people.

No,

Simone Collins: that's so true. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well, and, and the, the so important thing and why I love the pragmatist guide to sexuality is a book so much. Is it like the message at hammer's home again and again, is your arousal and discuss pathways are not an indication of moral good or bad. Your logic is that indication.

Yeah. You decide for yourself what is good or bad in this world? What is moral? If something disgusts you, that doesn't mean it's evil. And I think that's a big problem is a lot of a lot of women are turned on by violent, erotic material. And then a portion of women are like super turned off by it.

And then they can't understand. That while not morally condoning this material, some women just kind of want to watch it and [00:50:00] they're like, no one can ever watch this and it's evil and blah, blah, blah. And just, just so many things get screwed up. You know, like a lot of people are turned on by the concept of R.

A. P. E. like for real, it's a big turn on. That doesn't mean that they condone it or ever want it to happen. It would be terrible.

Malcolm Collins: We asked how much, just so there was no confusion. About whether this was a fantasy or not a fantasy, we go, how much do you like the fantasy or role play of rape? And then immediately after that, we make how much do you get turned on by the idea of actually being raped?

There's a huge number of women. I can't remember what I had to impose.

So for role-play of grape, it was four females. 38% males, 16%. , and that is being on the receiving end of it. , in terms of actually it happening to you, males, 23% females, 5%. And if you're looking at, , just general statistics on this. You will find that. Around 4% to [00:51:00] 5% of reported great cases. , report women. Feeling physiological arousal during the process.

So, this is wild. I was looking for the text on the grapes statistics in the book.

And I've found infection. I had forgotten about. That breaks them down by attractiveness rating. And so this is subjective attractiveness rating. How attractive an individual sees themselves as being, but unattractive men taking our survey were much more likely to report finding grape role-play arousing with 66% of the lowest level attractiveness.

Finding it. I turn on contrasted was 10% of average men and 14% of Hotman.

The same is true for females, but to a lesser extent was 44% of the least attractive category of women reporting arousal. At the idea of role-playing being graped contrasted with 22% of women. For average attractiveness, we see similar results for the thought of actual grape with 20% of women in the least attractive category, finding it arousing and only 3% of women in the average category, finding it arousing the same as seen among respondents for our male [00:52:00] study participants with 50% in the least attractive category, finding grape arousing, and only. 2% of men in the attractive category, finding grape arousing.

Simone Collins: Yeah, disturbing. Deeply disturbing, but, but not like because there are evolutionary reasons why Surviving women who were kind of okay with this happening to them, you know, why there were more surviving women than the ones who were like, I will die before I let this happen to me because they died and they didn't reproduce as it just so happens.

So, yeah, I mean, there, there are reasons why this happens and it's not great, but it's what it is, you know, and just accepting that, accepting reality, being pragmatic about it is the key. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I really, one of the things that the guy kept mentioning in the video, this progressive guy watching this video, these Mormons who are like totally okay with this.

And he's like, just so disgusted and judgmental of them. They are, he's like, they're so supportive for non supportive of being gay. Right? And it's like, no. [00:53:00] What they are is supportive of these people's choices, and I look forward of the day life choices that you don't support the day where we enter a society in which people can talk about the things that arouse them, and that can be completely divorced from the way they're expected to live their life.

Yeah, one of them. Weirdest things I've heard about the urban monoculture. And it's so true because it's almost like you're expected to like, go out and search for all the things that can turn you on, even if you would never want to know if something could turn you on, even if you're like, for example, like, map stuff, like minor, why would you ever want to know if that would turn you on?

There's. There is some kind of insinuation that people should be exploring that? Well, no, there, there basically is. It's like, you should go through every category of porn. There's basically something that a lot of, like, young people are doing. Nope. Explore your sexuality. Explore your sexuality. That's what they say.

You gotta

Simone Collins: turn it off. [00:54:00]

Malcolm Collins: Michael, light

Simone Collins: switch, just switch,

Malcolm Collins: it's a neat little Mormon trick.

Speaker 7: Turn it off, like a light switch, it's a cool little Mormon trick. Really, what's so hard about that?

Malcolm Collins: I'll put that in. Yeah, that's a good clip there. Right, like you, but the thing is, is like, you don't even need to know if you haven't been exposed to something, you might not know that it would ever arouse you, right?

Like you don't actually have a mandate to explore this stuff. It doesn't matter. It's genetic scars. If it's something you didn't have a choice over, it's not part of who you are. Genetic scars. It's a great

Simone Collins: way of putting it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Are the things you choose to be.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, no, 100 percent separate your sexuality with, it's not like, yeah, we, so we don't marry people based on our tastes in food, for example, you know, if we should see [00:55:00] them as just as, as, as connected, I'm going to get that traditionally reproducing.

With someone who disgusted you would be really difficult, but we have the technology to not None of our children were produced through sex. We have sex, but none of our children were produced through that process. They were produced through IVF because I am super infertile. There are ways around you not necessarily wanting to bang your partner each night.

And also there are amazing alternatives. To using another person to sexually gratify herself. And you know, especially now with AI combined AI with like really good sex toys, and I don't know, I just don't know why a quote unquote loveless marriage is a bad thing anymore, considering where we are in society with technology, with AI [00:56:00] and with the clear need for much more pragmatic and practical.

Mutually beneficial relationships life partnerships.

Malcolm Collins: Absolutely. Yeah. And I also note here. And I somewhat tipped my hand on this, but it's 1 of the reasons I feel strongly about this, which is to say that if I am somebody who is a straight male, who is aroused by, you know, extreme dom like, I'm an extremely dominant straight male.

Like, I'm overly straight and overly dominant in my arousal patterns to the extent where if I am presented with supernormal stimuli of dominance or straightness, I eat. Here's an example of super normal stimuli to women. Having sex is a super normal stimuli for a guy to be engaging it. Right? Like this is all women just like extra way.

It's funny. Somebody mentioned it's a fairly normal thing for guys to be into because I remember one comedian. He's like, you know, you ask [00:57:00] women what they're into and they're like, Oh, I'm into like X weird thing or I'm into Y weird thing. And for a minute, it's like more women. I want one woman. Two women, good.

Three women, better. Four women, better. More women is better. And then also more dominance, right? Like more dominance, better. To the extent where if I treated a real person that way, it would be deleterious to them outside of very controlled like role play scenarios.

It And I am able to say, I don't need to structure my life around this because I realize it's deleterious and not good for daily living.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, just how much time it takes, and it's one thing to be a dink couple that just chooses to make this your hobby. But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're just, they're way more efficient ways to do it.

Even if you want to maximize your amount of pleasure, including sexual gratification, it's easier to do it without a human, because just when you involve a human in it, then there's [00:58:00] just this additional layer, all the coordination and the prep and the cleanup and the aftercare, and it's just like, can we not find a better way to do that?

Malcolm Collins: Well, here's the, here's a great way to put this right. Is would I be more aroused? Like if I was arousal maxing my life. To have a 24, seven, like live in slate. This is something that some couples do. They structure their relationship with a wife. Yeah. Look up Gorian

Simone Collins: forums, G O R E A.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I would be more aroused by that lifestyle.

Would I be more happy in that lifestyle? No, I want somebody who I respect and can have conversations with and enjoy talking to and who can push me and who can work and who can earn money. And they don't need to like dote on all day or like had some sort of weird master slave sexual interaction. No, I, yeah, honestly,

Simone Collins: I, and this is, this is another thing that came up in the sexuality book though, is that when it comes down to it, not a lot of people [00:59:00] want to be, you know, Super dominant because it's a lot of work.

It is a lot of work. You don't want to

Malcolm Collins: manage that. Yeah, it's a lot of energy. I can be like I prefer this in a narrative context, right? But in my actual f ing life, that would

Simone Collins: be a nightmare! To have to maintain frame all the time. Exhausting. Exhausting.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and that's the thing, you can have a frame that would be most arousing for you, that isn't your f ing frame.

In personality and you're like,

Baby: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: but, but with the urban monoculture, it's like, Oh no, you'd be most aroused by having a live in slate. You got to do that. That's the only option for you. It's like, no, it's the only option for you. You can say, Oh, I don't need to, I can either make that some sort of like role play scenario, but even that would take a long time to set up.

Like, why not just porn, right? Like, why do I need to. Why

Simone Collins: not porn? [01:00:00] No,

Malcolm Collins: it's Here's the

Simone Collins: thing though, and here's our glimmer of hope, Malcolm, is that it's I don't know, maybe it's not a glimmer of hope. Society seems to have discovered this. Have you seen rates of sex recently? People have just We're in a post sex society.

I think now we've gone half the way there, right? Okay. So we we've gone to the point where we've acknowledged we don't need other people to sexually gratify ourselves. Now we have to go the rest of the way of, Oh, but we should still probably form life partnerships with people and raise families because it's, it's really.

Fun, cool thing to do. And you know, everyone's better off for it. So

absolutely.

Yeah, just let's just put just separate them all. Diverse it completely. Okay, done. I'm glad we talked this through. Society fixed. I love you

Malcolm Collins: society fixed. I love you. You're a great wife. What am I having for dinner tonight?

Simone Collins: If I can find bread. It seems to have disappeared. A grilled cheese sandwich with tomato soup. Or maybe if you're up for a quesadilla with tomato soup. Or I can [01:01:00] do potstickers, which I think I still have. Quesadilla

Malcolm Collins: with tomato soup? quesadilla in ages. A quesadilla? Or as our children say, Quesadilla!

I love you to death, Simone.

Simone Collins: We still need to, oh my God. I was thinking about like what we, we need to take this out. But I,

I was thinking like. Well, if we had a merch shop, because I was looking at other channels, similar to us and a lot of them had merch and I was like, well, we would only ever do like an Etsy shop with like really custom stuff.

And like, someone would reach out to us about t shirts and I'm like, well, obviously we'd make a of your and spell

that in the shop. Amazing. It's a great . It is. It is perfect.

I mean, I've, I've, you know, like in all the porn I've seen, I've never seen a that I thought looks better than yours.

You're

Malcolm Collins: not the only woman who has noted that. I

Simone Collins: know that, and so I'm like, well, we could sell a Malcolm in our merch shop. You're so

[01:02:00] creepy, Simone! It's sad that only I am enjoying it, you know, like it's it's a loss to humanity. So I was like, you know, I mean, if anything, people would go to the merch shop just to see the and then maybe they might buy one of our artists and shirts or you know, handmade paper planes by Octavian, which he would certainly want to list on the shop.

So.

Malcolm Collins: But I, I, I, I, what I love about this in this conversation is it, and I think it's where we need to go with the society. We need to both de stigmatize sexuality and decouple it from moral mandates and identity. I think once that is done, the left has nothing it can use to get your kids. No, no, no, no. Yeah.

The left can't get you.

Simone Collins: You know, if you take the identity out of politics and you don't have identity politics anymore, I'm like, gosh, suddenly we returned to the. [01:03:00] The, the age of debates and, you know, rational conversation. And wouldn't that be amazing. So yeah, again, society fixed. I will go make your, your dinner.

Love

you.

Love you.

Make sure you guys.

I'm gonna switch us to the right sides

Malcolm Collins: for our autistic audience,

Simone Collins: you know what Last night. I was watching Titan line up gummies in a little Neat line and then, and I realized she's coming over to the fold, Malcolm. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: no, we've got another one. Another systematizer. A royal flush of autistic children.

I

Simone Collins: hope so. Honestly. So far, all of

Malcolm Collins: our kids old enough to be diagnosed with autism have been. So, and has Simone. So this is, this is what I get for choosing a hottest.

Simone Collins: Hottest. Autismal children.

Malcolm Collins: Autismal. I go for Autism, Hottest. Actually, I [01:04:00] like

Baby: Hottest. H A U T

Malcolm Collins: I S T S, right? No, well, that's the way they call it, like, like Hottie Culture or whatever, but like, it's meant to be.

Hottie Culture! The person who coined it I don't know if they've said it online, but they are a famous friend of ours that I really like and she coined it to mean hot women who are artistic and all hang out in the community together.

Simone Collins: I still like Autismal. But whatever. Oh, so she actually meant hot as in H O T, not H A U T.

Yeah, she means the hot

Malcolm Collins: smart autistic woman. That's what he was talking about.

Simone Collins: Well, I thought you were referring to H A U T

Malcolm Collins: E. But you would never use

Simone Collins: French, of course. What was I thinking? Yes, go on.

Speaker 6: You don't have to do a thing, [01:05:00] a thought can be a thought without anyone seeing. A kink can be a kink without anyone knowing. You don't have to do a thing, I support that you won't. I don't want to dress up like a girl, but when you do that in front of kids, man, it makes me want to hurl. You don't have to do a thing.

You don't have to do a thing. There is more to life than what turns you on. Sure the path is harder, but we both mean it through this barter. You don't You don't have to do a thing

There is more to life than feelin good There is more to [01:06:00] life than havin would This is somethin we once understood You don't have to do a thing

So go ahead and fall in love Build on earth what's above Go out there and find a wife Sex Sex is not the point of life, you don't have to do a thing.

Go ahead and fall in love, build on earth what's above. Go out there and find a wife, sex is not the point of life. You don't have to do a [01:07:00] thing. You don't have to do a thing. There is more to life than what turns you on. Sure the path is harder, but we've got meaning through this border. You don't have to do a thing.

There

is more to life than feeling good. There is more to life than having would. This is something we once understood. You don't have to do a thing.

So go with it. Go ahead and fall in love, build on earth what's above. Go out there and [01:08:00] find a wife, sex is not the point of life. You don't have to do a thing.