Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins

In this episode, we delve into the case of Natalie Rapanau, a 15-year-old involved in a tragic school shooting. Through the lens of her recently discovered manifesto, we discuss the misconceptions surrounding her identity and ideologies. We explore her background, motivations, and the broader societal implications of her actions. Along the way, we touch on topics like youth nihilism, the impact of familial structures, and the influence of internet culture. Join us as we untangle the details and reflect on what this means for future generations.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone! Today, we are going to be doing a deep dive on what some FemCell Shooter, because of a Incorrect and forged manifesto that was shared around shortly afterwards. What? Where she, like, she subscribed to FemCell Ideology but if you dig deeper, it was pretty obvious that it was forged, like, if you actually go into it, and the real manifesto, I was able to find it after a lot of research.

Oh, so there is a

Simone Collins: manifesto, it's just that the wrong manifesto was shared at first.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, because she idiotically forgot to make her document public before going on the mass shooting. Oh.

Simone Collins: Oh. That's like when you accidentally forward an email to the wrong person, you know?

Malcolm Collins: So her boyfriend had to make it public, which I think really blows the idea of her being a fem cell out of the water I through, because we'll go through a, a few of the longer snippets from her manifesto.

Okay. It'll be pretty clear that she is. Probably [00:01:00] closest to a four channer in ideology, like a stereotypical four channer very black billed. And I would say that this shooting was downstream of an extreme black pilling of the youth, who just don't believe there's hope in anything. Or that the older generation understands them or has any sort of plans for them or any good advice for them.

And yeah, I agree with that across the board in terms of I, I think that we are at risk of many more such shootings like this. If we allow this rampant nihilism to continue to spread, and it is being pushed by the newest update of the urban monoculture, not the update from a couple of generations ago, not the one that has affected most adults but the new one sort of follows the, the nothing strategy from never ending story.

People have begun to lose their hopes, and forget their dreams. So the nothing grows stronger. It's the emptiness that's left. It is like a [00:02:00] despair, destroying this world. I have been trying to help it. Because people who have no hopes are easy to control.

Simone Collins: I can't remember that. All I remember from never ending story is, is coming away with this oppressive feeling of depression and. Nihilism. What, what is, what, what is that in what do you just

Malcolm Collins: is, is it those without hope are easy to control?

Simone Collins: Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, and that's checked out. That seems to be what's going on.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins: When you, when you get rid of human creativity and human ingenuity and hope for a better future, even though I've like, literally never, I actually sat down with Simone and it's like, you know, we may. Live to a post work era. Like when we are old, it might be that only work is happening voluntarily, which is pretty wild to think about.

Simone Collins: There

Malcolm Collins: is a lot of reason to be optimistic about the [00:03:00] future. But I wouldn't have been optimistic about her place in it because she seemed exceedingly stupid. And we'll go into that as well.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. Fightin words.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Not really. When you, when you read it, you're like, okay, I know nothing about this.

So yeah, please bring me up to

Simone Collins: speed.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, great. And the thing that will surprise people just first, I'll put some pictures on screen here of her is she is white. And for a 15 year old girl, it looks like she would have grown up to be a fairly attractive woman.

Simone Collins: She's going through her awkward teenage phase at this point.

Malcolm Collins: No, I'm not. I'd say probably top 10 percent attractiveness in terms of women. Okay.

Simone Collins: So yeah, she wasn't deformed. She wasn't, and she had a boyfriend and like, so she wasn't She was

Malcolm Collins: thin she was, had a decent looking face. And again, This is all in the context of I am trying to judge a 15 year old's future attractiveness not me talking about how attractive she was.

I think you're also

Simone Collins: trying to point out, like, is this because she was incredibly [00:04:00] ugly in some way that would lead her to be bullied and extra blackpilled by the world because she wasn't attractive? But that clearly wasn't the issue. Yeah, that clearly was a technical issue with her appearance in a way that could have radicalized her.

It had to have been something else is what you're saying.

Malcolm Collins: She comes off and you'll see this as I go through this. If you're familiar with the story of creepy Chan, pretty similar to creepy Chan. Oh, okay. Or, or early Bella Delphine, if you're familiar with her story um, where she was basically raised in environments like 4chan,

Simone Collins: um,

Malcolm Collins: And , tried to customize her appearance and humor and attitude to be like that, that people on those sites respect.

Okay, so the attack took place during a, oh sorry, on December 16th, 2024, a tragic shooting occurred at the Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin. The shooter has been identified as Natalie Rapunel, a 15 year old female student who also went by the name Samantha, [00:05:00] or Sam, you see in some of the correspondence.

Here is what we know about the incident and the shooter. The attack took place during a study hall session, resulting in the deaths of two people, a teacher and another teenage student. Six others were injured, with two in critical condition. Rapanau died from what the authorities believe to be a self inflicted gunshot wound. The gun used was a 9mm handgun. Her parents, Melissa and Jeff Rapanau, had been divorced and remarried multiple times. She mentions this in her manifesto. . They had a joint custody arrangements that sometime required Natalie to move between homes every few days uh, enrolled Natalie in therapy to help her cope with the custody arrangements.

And Natalie had joined a shooting range with her father, in the months before the incident and a photo from August showed her at the firing range wearing protective gear and handling a firearm. Her father was quite proud of this and they seem to, or he believed that she enjoyed her time there.

She also participated in karate [00:06:00] competitions. Now, she was intensely obsessed with school shooters, and in her manifesto, talks about a number she considers herself a fangirl of, so we'll get to that. Oh, wow, okay. Normally,

Simone Collins: martial arts, and Participating in safe firearm use at a gun range is correlated with more responsible gun use behavior.

So this was surprising.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, no, she, she, it's clear that she went into all of this with the intention of doing a school shooting.

Simone Collins: Oh, like she wasn't raised with it. It kind of was something she she talked her dad into. Okay. So it's not like her dad raised her going to gun ranges. Like this is gun safety.

We're a gun family. It was more like, hey dad, I really want to go to the gun range together. It'll help us bond. Wouldn't you like me to like you more than my mom, et cetera. Something like that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and we'll see later in this, her argument for why she did this could basically be boiled down to, I [00:07:00] decided that my life had no hope and the future has no hope, so I decided to commit suicide, but wouldn't that be a lame way to die?

Why don't I remove some other weak genes from the gene pool in the process? And remove some of the filth that is humanity from the planet of the Earth.

Simone Collins: Oh, come on!

Malcolm Collins: All right. So she's, she's sort of was an antinatalist. You could almost argue. But like an incel Blackville version of an antinatalist.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that antinatalist, the antinatalist view is let's just all end the line. You know, it ends with us,

Malcolm Collins: but keep in mind, she also believed quote unquote, she, she had written this, that she was the mistake. They never wanted of her parents. And speaking of both school and home. They look at me, but don't see me.

I am invisible until I do something they can't ignore. And she actually, I'll just go straight for the document. I think that's a better way to do it.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: But before I go into the document, I also wanted to talk a bit about, [00:08:00] how this document was found. And you know, and I'll just put the tweets on screen here. But yeah, there's a series of tweets about the fake fem cell version of the manifesto that was going around. And that is what actually motivated the release of the real document. The boyfriend was not going to release it at, at start, but people were basically like, look, people are using this to.

Spread like an ideology that wasn't hers using her death, like either release the real document or this fake documents going to gain more traction. I will note some interesting things about going through the entire manifesto because it was like, yeah, Four or five pages. Is that it doesn't really talk about sexual frustration.

It doesn't really talk about her, anything about being a woman or anything like that as being a bad thing. So it doesn't appear to be particularly gender based. Although she does think that everyone has a disgusting body. She mentioned that at one point. But that is not like a, Oh, I'm angry at men sort [00:09:00] of saying she doesn't mention politics.

At all,

In the, in the document. So this wasn't anything that was particularly politically motivated. She doesn't mention anything that seems stereotypically woke. She seems to have been fairly allergic to that. And a lot of it is basically self pitying, I guess I'd say. She's a teenage girl.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right. So I'll start quoting here. Maybe you'll see me as a weirdo, a freak, just as some of you do now, but I'm not. I'm not like the others. I would never want to be like them.

Speaker 2: We'll always be freaks and we'll never be like other people!

Speaker 3: You're boring. And you're totally ordinary. And you know it.

Malcolm Collins: With how they think and what they do on a simple day, I hate how the population thinks, grows, and talks about how they make romance fake.

If only some days we could do a public execution, that would be gladly needed. I wouldn't mind throwing some stones at idiots, or even watching from the far back when they get [00:10:00] hanged. And then so you, you get a lot of stuff like this, like very violent sort of 4chan y, but also very self pitying and very desiring to be unique.

I am not like other people is a constant theme of this, which we've seen there's like teenage girls go through. This is a classic

Simone Collins: teenage girl. Yeah. Tendency. They could have maybe

Malcolm Collins: been cured had she seen American Beauty.

Speaker 4: There's nothing worse in life than being ordinary.

Simone Collins: I know because it would have made her feel so embarrassed about having

Malcolm Collins: these ideas.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or like the virgin suicides. Yeah. She'd just be like, Oh, this is too basic. I can't do that. It was painful hearing that because it's sound parts of it sounded like my teenage diaries, my angsty days. And we have those, we should like

Malcolm Collins: read them at some point on the show, maybe not, but they are very fun to read

Simone Collins: when I was, especially when I was a teen, they were incredibly angsty.

And I reading [00:11:00] this takes me back. I mean, part of me is thinking it's a wonder more girls don't do school shootings. You know, because in the end, like, They're scary. You know, people are afraid of teen boys in school shooting. It's the girls who are scary. That's why we originally decided to have boys first, because I was terrified of having two teen girls leading the tone in our family.

I will note

Malcolm Collins: here, teen girls almost never commit mass shootings. This is very rare. Yeah, this is extremely rare.

There have been more mass shootings by trans women in the last four years, I think, than there have been by women in the last 20 years.

She is

Simone Collins: bringing DEI to school shootings. shootings.

Malcolm Collins: The glass ceiling.

Simone Collins: Um, As thinking also about the S You know, this was an inc of events that was driven yeah,

Malcolm Collins: very, very, ver getting a little bit of t

Simone Collins: I would like to throw a r like to watch as they, [00:12:00] yo She could be in Salem.

Malcolm Collins: Right, so if you're not an American and you don't know what she's referring to, describe the Salem Witch Trials quickly.

Simone Collins: So the Salem Witch Trials took place in the town of Salem, Massachusetts when a bunch of pilgrims sort of had a mass hysteria event, led by a small girl. Cabal group clique of female teenage girls who started accusing various members of the town of witchcraft.

There was a slave involved who kind of got coerced into feeding into the narrative as well. I think she might've been the first adult to kind of feed into this witchcraft narrative and accusing people of practicing witchcraft. But in the end, A sizable number of people were killed one very, you know, innocent man was crushed to death in a pretty ballsy way.

He basically just, whenever they asked him to confess his sins, he would just say more weight. And [00:13:00] it was, it was one of these instances of teenage females being incredibly violent and evil and Machiavellian and uncaring and psychopathic. And so this. It doesn't seem too far from that and I think having been a teenage female, I get that there's, they're scary.

They're scarier than teenage boys by a long

Malcolm Collins: shot. When they, when they decide to go scary. By the way, a movie I'd note if you want to watch a movie about teen girls being crazy that I think it's really good and hugely underrated ginger snaps to

Simone Collins: not one

Malcolm Collins: ginger snaps to amazing movie, hugely like under underplayed as a cult classic.

Simone Collins: See, that's crazy in a fun way. And I think what have been, what would have been more helpful.

In terms of making the concept of being a school shooter and suicidal school, school shooter to cringe for this young lady would have been something like the version suicides or American beauty, like [00:14:00] you pointed out. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: no, I agree. And there hasn't been a movie like that in a really long time.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it's been too long.

Malcolm Collins: Too long since we have made it cringe to be a young teenage girl would desiring to be, it's a

Simone Collins: public service, clearly, you know, we got to get back to this, make it to, you know. Too basic.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, so here is a quote from it that I think will throw off the idea that this might have been an overly left leaning person.

So, here, obviously, I'm not going to say the N word, but she uses the N word. Oh,

Simone Collins: boy.

Malcolm Collins: And then she says, but it's only in one section, like one paragraph she mentions this, and it's a complete non sequitur of where it is in the document. Is she just doing

Simone Collins: it to be edgy? Is she just trying to look pretty?

Make it clear that she's not like edgy. I suppose

Malcolm Collins: some of the other shooters she admired did it. And then she decided she was really trying to like simp for male mass school shooters. This is, this is clearly part of this for her. I

Simone Collins: think fangirling is another bad symptom or just uncomfortable symptom of being a teenage female.

You know, this is just one of those perfect storms of. Every way in which teenage female, [00:15:00] female hood was manifested in her, was manifested in exactly the wrong flavor.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. So she says in words though, worse, once you sleep with them, you are one. I don't care who you think you are or what you think you've done good for this world of yours.

It will never matter because you will always have no thought and no brain to continue is. I hate looking at some of the people in society, When seeing what they are and what they do with their lives, like how does one do that? But I know how out of scum and just pure retardedness. So you can see it's very like meandering and doesn't really have a point.

It's almost like somebody trained an AI on 4chan.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Yeah

Malcolm Collins: To go further here. i'm glad to be different and not the same as other people I know how to be formal. I know how to use my words Even if I get mad at you there has always been a good reason whether or not I despise you or [00:16:00] just because I can There's always been a good reason either. I despise you or just because I can I don't know That's a good reason just because I can again, this is

Simone Collins: so a teenage girl You Some of you

Malcolm Collins: guys are very teenage girls.

Teenage girl distilled. Some of you guys really do deserve the execution punishment. Rather painful or not, you deserve to be dead. But yet, doesn't the whole world deserve that? The main target has been anyone with some sort of feeling or being or knowing any action to turn you wrong and left rather than the right and the better.

So That might be saying that she's right wing there. I can't really make it out. This is what she had to say after praising a number of other mass shooters about the Columbine mass shooters. She goes, I've looked into him since like 2021 and 2022 and she has a picture of him. And I've just realized how much potential bombs have, but It's not just that, though.

It's his strategy, his own method, and what led him to do it, and the fact that he [00:17:00] stuck to that. Some of his fangirls are like, really strange in my opinion, but like, aren't all fangirls?

So she's like, questioning being in this fangirl community for school shooters. And then she goes on to say, There are also others I admire or so I'd like to say look up to and or find interesting. Otherwise, most are just interesting to me. Unlike those retarded. F. A. G. f***s who simp over them, like, come on, just stop.

So you can see very It just

Simone Collins: sounds like a teenage girl's diary, and I Gosh. Mm. Yeah, go on.

Malcolm Collins: No, but we live in a society, I, we had a, a teen girl who we were helping at one point and she would say stuff that sounded sort of like this sometimes, not like this, but like very like, I'm different, no one's like me and I'm like, everybody thinks that.

The number one thing you need to remember when you're a teenager is be nice to your parents. [00:18:00] That's what I'd say is the number one thing I'd impart to teenagers because that's going to be the strongest instinct that you need to overcome to learn to intergenerationally strive. It's also just

Simone Collins: so interesting.

It's hard for me to model. Like I have never seen this trope come through in a teenage girl or boy who is from a large family. They just, that having a lot of siblings and having a life in which by design you were presented with responsibilities and limitations and hardship, but in a meaningful way. And by meaningful, I mean, It's because there's something else that matters more instead of just, oh, this random bad thing happened.

You know, it's

Malcolm Collins: funny that you mentioned that. Not a single school shooter I'm aware of has been from a large family.

Simone Collins: Yeah, has had more than one sibling, per my understanding. Maybe. That's

Malcolm Collins: wild, actually.

Simone Collins: Well, we have to look up that claim, of course, and actually check,

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So I went through a lot of AI is trying to find it any, could find a [00:19:00] single school shooter from an intact family with more than one sibling. I'm even talking just two siblings. Could not find a single one. , now some had, , parents who had remarried or married other people and had a number of half siblings, but here I'm looking for large intact families. It seems to have a hundred percent protection rate. Against somebody going crazy and becoming a school shooter, which is just wild. And, you know, the next time somebody is like, Hey, we need to stop these school shootings.

We should ban guns. You can be like, or start having lots of kids again. That would also stop it.

Simone Collins: but Yeah, I just, even, even when it comes to general angstiness, sullenness, no, of course, even in Hannah's children, the amazing book on, on like very big prenatalist families.

There were some families that reported having depressed teens, teens who were struggling a little [00:20:00] bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But not in an angsty, weird way like this. I

Malcolm Collins: just, you pointed out to me, I thought it was really interesting is there was a case called the Wolf Children of five kids that were raised in a cramped Manhattan apartment, like a small.

Studio apartment in Manhattan, which they only left once per year, if that. Some years they didn't leave at all.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And there was like seven or eight of them living together. It might have been as high as twelve. But they It was

Simone Collins: smaller than Yeah, it was maybe in the, like, seven range.

Malcolm Collins: They ended up becoming, like, they did a video documentary on them, and if you watch the documentary cognitively and emotionally, they are much more mature than most random teenagers you would meet.

Yes, which is crazy!

Simone Collins: Yes! You would expect them to be completely out of whack and, and, and terribly regulated and everything, but, but in the end, Living with those limitations, living in such close quarters with [00:21:00] other people, having to make that work forced them to be reasonable and patient. And so I

Malcolm Collins: don't, I don't think that that's my takeaway from it.

My takeaway from it is that the cognitive stabilization and benefits of having lots of siblings is so astronomically high. It can outweigh being locked in a room your entire life. Basically you can be raised. Feral child basically. And if you have lots of siblings, you will be better off than your, you know, single kid who's going to tennis camp and going to the shooting range with her dad and who the parents spend tons of time on.

That is how much it matters in terms of cognitive stability to have a huge number of siblings. Well,

Simone Collins: I think siblings are very grounding because they constantly remind you that the world isn't about you. That everything's not just about you and your needs that you are not entitled to anything. You know, and that you can gain a lot of [00:22:00] benefit from caring for other people and enjoy, feel, feel genuine reward and pleasure by helping someone else before you help yourself.

There's just so many good things that come from it and I, as someone who had bad dreams as an only child, in which my parents told me I was going to have a little sibling, you know, who just thought it was the worst thing ever to have siblings. It's so weird for me to now acknowledge this. I feel a little uncomfortable saying it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right. So we keep going here.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Nobody knows I'm doing this. I've got the weapons by lies and manipulation and my father's stupidity. I planned on shooting myself a while ago, but thought maybe it's better for evolution, rather than just one stupid, boring suicide, which hopefully I'll reach that point.

I planned this myself and nobody else. I act alone. There would have been no way to change what happened. You can't and never will know. You never [00:23:00] cared too much. To know anything about me. I'm glad you don't know. So, clearly here this is like, I'm better than my caretaker. And teens go through this phase.

Do they think their parents are idiots?

Simone Collins: These are all very natural feelings. And again, I think the problem is that she, it's also, it's a natural important thing as well. I think as a teenager and as someone becoming an adult in the process of becoming an adult to realize that, yeah, you don't matter. No one cares what you think.

No one cares how you feel. You really don't matter. I think an issue that I, I, I. I see with modern parenting is that you're being gas lit as a teen and told that your feelings do matter and people do care what you think. Absolutely. Yes. And her parents are like, oh, no, you're so special. We care what you think.

You mean so much to us. But she knows it's not true. And now she's dealing with it in this really obviously [00:24:00] toxic and tragic way.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And I know here, this is the interesting thing. When you look at like why she's mad at her parents and stuff like that. Everyone's like, Oh, you guys are so horrible to your kids.

Like you bought them, you, you know, et cetera. Like, how could you do that? I haven't seen anything like that. Kids don't whine about stuff like that in their Letters like this or manifestos like this. It's like my parents got divorced and remarried multiple times. My parents didn't take the time to understand me.

My parents were stupid and weak. That's the general complaints you see about parents. In fact I, I see the, I was disgusted at how weak my parents are. Specifically my father was. To be the most common complaint in the in cell world.

Simone Collins: Really? Well, I think most people, if they're not, I guess, okay. Yes.

Being a teen, you, you hit this point where you discover that your mother and dad are not God, that they're not flawless. They do not know everything. [00:25:00] Cause I think there's this period between we'll say, I don't know, we haven't hit it with our, with our kids yet. Maybe, maybe from six to 10, where kids seem to think very highly of their parents.

And then it hits them. Oh my gosh, these people are human. And it's this huge upset and that's normal. That's very normal.

Malcolm Collins: It is normal. But what I, what I was noting here is that if you are afraid of failing your kids somewhere on the spectrum, if you read a lot of the writing that young people are putting out there, which I have, cause you know, I'd spent time on like, before Chan and Chris cafe and all this stuff.

The complaint that young people have about their parents, which I'm trying to hit home, is not the complaint that previous generations had. Oh, that they were too

Simone Collins: strict with me. They were too

Malcolm Collins: not, they were too strict with me. It's not that they were never around. It's either and I've seen this, this, this mirrored complaint a lot.

And she seems to argue this complaint as well. It's that my [00:26:00] mom's settled for a weak man. Like she should have been more what's the word here? Yeah, she should have been more hypergamous. Basically, this is a complaint. People have, why isn't my mom? What? They blame the weakness of their father for their own weakness.

They're like, I am either weak, or ugly, or not motivated, or not creative, because I got bad genes from my dad.

Simone Collins: That is weird. That's a meme? Like, that's a thing? It's like a

Malcolm Collins: hardcore, yes, a hardcore meme, especially in intel circles. Oh and it makes sense because when you break out of the urban monoculture, the first thing that people realize and that floods are made, if you have any like degree of breaking out and young people are going to break out always.

So what the urban monoculture has been pushing with them is nihilism, but then, oh, human genes exist. And I am a large part of reflection of my genes. So if I'm a young kid and I hate myself, it must be because I have bad genes. [00:27:00] And then there's this sort of side assumption, which is and I don't know why the moms always get a pass but they generally seem to get a pass in these, like their mom.

I think it's because I thought teen girls really hate

Simone Collins: their

Malcolm Collins: moms. She, I mean, it's not that she liked her mom, but I think it's that she learned from incel forums how to speak about her dad and the way to speak about her dad that earned her

Simone Collins: respect. They just have more to say about men. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think it's more disgusting to be weak as a male.

If a female is weak in our society, we don't treat that as like this huge failure, whereas if a male doesn't stand his ground or show discipline and order for his kids or show a vision and a desire to achieve that for his own life, it's very easy for kids to grow up denigrating him. And you'll see this a lot.

So I just think that people are hugely optimizing for things. Kids don't care about. Kids [00:28:00] don't care how frequently you're around. That was like two generations ago. Kids don't care that you're too strict or you're shoving your value system on them. What kids do care about in this generation is you being pathetic.

So be careful about that. Okay, so next.

I've always been a quiet kid, I say, or at least that's what everyone else around me has said and never really had the brains for most things because I wasn't smart enough for people around me, even though I'm good at science and some stuff. Nobody really looked at me in a good way in elementary or middle school, nor even high school right now.

Doesn't matter much because I like being alone. Very sour grapeseed, right? Like I want attention, but I also don't want to deal with people. Sometimes I just hate being picked on, but yet I mourn for friends, but sooner than later, they'll leave. My therapist sucks. He's just some weak, fat guy who doesn't deserve everything he has now.

Nobody deserves anything good.

So, a lot of this is based Teen girls are so scary. I don't know what to say. [00:29:00] Like, very teen girl. Like, that's why I believe this. Like, I read this and I was like, this is so No, this is, this

Simone Collins: checks out. I, I have faith in you. I don't know what the other Fem Cell Manifesto, the fake one, read like, but this is not questionable.

Yeah. I mean, if it didn't seem like something written by a teen girl, I would have just assumed that it was a teen girl using AI, but I don't think anyone has. So little dignity that they would use AI to write there.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, it has so many mistakes in it. I mean, the grammar, the grammatical mistakes I'm making here are not me misreading it.

Like, it's really poorly structured. Like, it's clear that this was not a fully educated human being. And a lot of people said, actually, this is pretty normal grasp of English of 15 year olds these days. Just because the education system is so bad. Yeah. And the other reason I believe this one is because it doesn't seem to have an agenda.

It's not painting her as a specific type of person, and there's an awful lot of complaint about why she hates her parents for silly reasons.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it's just, it's just [00:30:00] female again, like I,

Malcolm Collins: what I think is interesting is the repeated, like, not just her dad, but like other male authority figures in her life, she's disgusted by their weakness.

Simone Collins: She's disgusted

Malcolm Collins: by the weakness of society, which she sees as filthy.

Simone Collins: I think that's a product for sure of what she's been exposed to, that we have this equation Female angst, which is the volume is turned way, way up by being an only child or an almost only child hands on parents and a stifling smothering society.

And then she's exposed to this series of memes that's very tough on men and rather than turn her hate inward, like a lot of teenage girls do, and just do the normal thing, start cutting, develop an eating disorder, go trans. She decides to then become a school shooter. So she is quite indeed not like other [00:31:00] girls in that way.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, think about the way that she's approaching this, which I find really fascinating is that if you look at the film sells. They look at men and are like, there is a patriarchal structure that is stomping on us. There is like it's this cabal of men. They see men as like this unifying force that like they work together

Simone Collins: They check each other

Malcolm Collins: Yeah represents a new wave of disgust and anger with men which is to say why are men Why, why as growing up are the men I see so disgustingly self like, like desiring affirmation, desiring of, of, of weak and pathetic things.

Where are the strong men, the men that I want around me, the men that I want in society, which is such a different complaint than you would get from a typical fem cell, right? You know, it's almost like, a true femcel and that she's like outright admitting it. Like what I [00:32:00] mean by this is it's not that I can't get anyone to sleep with me.

It's that no men are worthy of existing in this society.

Although

again, she did have a boyfriend. So to continue my so called family never included me because I was too weird for them again, this whole, like I'm different thing. My father never treated me with respect. My father was always make me stand out in the worst possible way, yet bring up how I fail at school or can't get out of bed simply because I don't want to leave home.

He makes me look like a freak to his family and friends. He says so much, but look on his bad side. So here you see, this is something that, that young girls especially in your diary even saw this. You were like, why am I freaking out that like my parents are cheering for me at a sports game? Like they're trying to be nice.

You had the ability to like have some self reflection on like, why do I care that my parents are trying to.

Simone Collins: Oh, I'm crazy.

Malcolm Collins: That's what's happening. And I'd also point out here that what kids are afraid of [00:33:00] is their parents in impotent ways trying to get them to do things. It's not their parents in effective ways trying to get them to do things.

And I think it's the impotence. Of the way her father interacted with her as well as the social shaming and connection of himself to her in these you know, big in person environments that created this kind of language. One of the ways I think that will really help avoid this with our daughters and boys.

is I really want to include them in the podcast. I really want to include them in our social media in the same way that I talk with you. I'd love to have days where it's one of them or something like that, you know, or two of them instead of us, you know, make this more of a family affair. And I think that if you have somebody regularly, publicly broadcasting the way that they're thinking about things and People notice red flags like the type of red flags that she was clearly exhibiting.

They can help constructively steer them [00:34:00] back onto a good path. And these sorts of deep conversations where she got to signal what she thought is something that is clear that she just wasn't having with important people in her life.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. It was all going online or inward, which was very toxic for her.

Malcolm Collins: Well, won't your kids find some outlet like that? Unlikely, because if your parents, and this is the way that's actually happening to me now, because we have such a big audience, I like stopped responding to Facebook or comments or anything like that, because I'm like, I know this person has built rage in me and I want to explain to them why they're so stupid, but why am I wasting time responding to this person?

When at any given time, day or night, there's over a hundred people watching me, like. I should be focused on the messages that I'm putting out to a wider platform, not this one individual on Facebook who pissed me off.

Simone Collins: Yeah, maybe. And there's also that element that I [00:35:00] think a lot of everyone wants to be heard in some way.

And for many people feeling like they're heard by some audience online, maybe some way to make them feel better. I suppose, so like she might have felt sufficiently heard if she felt she had an audience that engaged with her ideas, however small and maybe, I don't know, I'm not sure.

Malcolm Collins: No, but it's really hard.

No, it's clear. She mentioned that a few times. If she had a wider audience, she wouldn't have done this.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: But because a lot of the social capital of today's use is based on how many people are watching you are looking at you online. Which I think she felt like, especially as AI begins to grow, like, am I ever going to have that?

Am I ever going to have people who care what I say or think or am doing?

Simone Collins: That's interesting.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So next I was the wrong child of the family. My parents admit they didn't want me nor ever did. Even if I'm grown, I'm always the one [00:36:00] who sat or sat around in the other room because they didn't want to interact with me at any point in time. Then I stayed in my room all day during the day and night and after and before school as well.

Again, you can see, Incredibly bright. And this is why I don't think that this is a faked manifesto. I

Simone Collins: would say articulate. The word you're looking for is articulate. She could be very bright and just not have been instructed well in writing.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, but I think if she was, you know, she would have at least put it through an AI to fix the grammar.

I mean, if it's the last thing that's going out there.

Simone Collins: I think a lot of people don't show their kids these resources. We've met plenty of kids of really, really smart, articulate people. Okay. Who have not even really told their kids about. And they live in sheltered enough worlds where they're not using those tools to cheat on everything yet.

I think that AI adoption is pretty lumpy even among young people.

Malcolm Collins: That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, maybe she just didn't engage with it. And. I also want to note on this last one that I thought [00:37:00] was pretty interesting is she talks about her parents not wanting her.

And this brings me to the part of pronatalism that I get so disgusted with, which is a pronatalist that are like, it is pronatalist to ban condoms and to ban pornography.

Simone Collins: Oh, we

Malcolm Collins: want someone to get someone pregnant because like they couldn't like get off. Like, is that, are you really that like insane of a person?

Like, no, we don't want the people to exist who only exist because their parents. Lacked self control.

Simone Collins: Yeah, not cool.

Malcolm Collins: Not cool. Insane, actually. I am not hate. I am simply pointing this out. You and the system will always suck. Therefore, we need a revolution. Nobody understands that, though. Nor do people understand the fact that they probably sat next to me in class and never thought a single word about me, nor ever really thought to.

I don't really care, though, to be honest. Nobody really has. But I'm such Such teen angst here. First of all, like she wants people to think about her and to notice her, but she [00:38:00] also wants to not focus on people. We talk about what it is to go through puberty as a young girl, and it's a desire to be treasured.

And that's not what she's feeling in society. And it was not something she was able to generate.

Simone Collins: Well, it's horrible because it's a desire to be treasured, often accompanied by, not always, but often accompanied by a disgust with oneself. Because you're going through puberty and it doesn't always look that great, you know,

Malcolm Collins: to look great.

It was her, it was not bad.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Lucky her. Must be nice. The

Malcolm Collins: interesting thing is that she seemed almost pathologically against like a makeup or trying to doll herself up in any extent. And she still looks pretty fine.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow.

Malcolm Collins: You know, so, I, I, yeah, that was not the issue with her. You

Simone Collins: say this knowing you, you can admit this was the issue with me, right?

You didn't think I looked okay. Right.

Malcolm Collins: I don't know. I think you [00:39:00] guys are probably around the same attractiveness level. Oh no,

Simone Collins: then she probably felt super ugly because I looked freaking horrible. Okay. Yeah. Then if you thought I looked okay as an adolescence, then we have words.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, as an adolescence, I'm talking today as an adolescence.

Yeah. You probably would have been by average person considered less attractive than her.

Simone Collins: Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. All right. So she was, yeah. I just want to calibrate there. No, but I mean, I don't want to talk about Not everyone goes through their ugly duckling phases. Not saying I became a swan, but I'm not at the nadir of my

Malcolm Collins: attractiveness.

Hold on. What I'm saying here is this is actually in Okay, so it is weird to have to try to judge the attractiveness of a 15 year old girl because she's a kid, right? Well, especially at

Simone Collins: school. And it's also sad. That, well, okay, maybe it's not, because I was gonna say like, I don't remember other people writing

me a tracking list of the Columbine shooters, but I think they did.

Malcolm Collins: Just, just, just Google her. .

Simone Collins: Oh, this is so bad. Oh yeah, [00:40:00] no. No, she's attractive. She looks very sad, but she's, she's an attractive. No, definitely. She looks way better than I did as a teen thing. I mean, I feel okay.

So you see what I mean when I'm like top 10

Malcolm Collins: percent of women, right? Her age.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Yeah. No, but it's weird to be sorry. I will say it is weird to have to say this about a 15 year old, but it's actually important because when you're talking about teenage girls, a huge part of angst or hatred with the world can come from the perceptions of their own attractiveness of the other individuals.

And so it's important to be able to say No, she was not unattractive in anything. She was only attracted into the spectrum. Mm-hmm. For somebody who never did her show, that's also

Simone Collins: though, let's keep, you know, very common issue. Body dysmorphia and teenage girls. I mean, , [00:41:00] she doesn't, doesn't complain ever about being unattractive.

She doesn't, yeah, she doesn't. So that, that clearly wasn't the issue here. The issue here was a, a. Well, maybe, I mean, maybe she would have been better off if she was body dysmorphic because then her hatred would have turned inward. And like I said, she would have either gone trans or anorexic or cut. I

Malcolm Collins: actually think that might be part of what led her to this form of radicalization.

Yeah, she didn't, she wasn't

Simone Collins: hating herself enough. She needed to hate herself more.

Malcolm Collins: She didn't have an obvious excuse. For all of the emotions she was feeling, she didn't have a, she wasn't ugly enough because I'm ugly or, oh, I'm feeling this because I'm trans or, oh, I'm feeling this because I'm, you know, ex discriminated group, you know, she had, she was a, a white straight girl, right?

Like, above average attractiveness. So there was no outlet other than just, no, it's just society that's broken.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: When you get this blackmailed,

And I also think that her goal for trying to fix society is interesting because she didn't feel like she had agency to do that, which [00:42:00] is a huge thing. We focus on with our kids and future day and all.

Yeah, you have the agency to fix it.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's messed up. Yeah, that she, but I don't, I think that was all just a just so. Story there that I'm, you know, taking myself out and she just hurt and she was angry and it was displaced aggression against herself and others that. She turned to

Malcolm Collins: yeah, and the final one continue the final line here.

I clip is the wolf hunts its prey and continues life with no other bruises or scars. There is no predator and prey anymore. It is all filth walking. There's nothing more with filth. It simply cannot die or make hunts real. If only. They want is value. Finally, one learns that boredom is a disease of civilization.

That's what [00:43:00] she concluded her manifesto is.

Simone Collins: So it's on we again.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And if you look at her social media posts, they're very like pay attention to me sort of stuff leading up to this. They were things like the quiet ones always strike the loudest and I'm what you made me. They're almost like live, laugh, love of teenage angst.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: I plan to be a school shooter. She just had that, that Pinterest board. Oh, what we should not be making light of this is bad. I they're not, this is no, no, we should

Malcolm Collins: be, this is the way that you prevent this is you make light of it in a way where people who have these feelings realize that they are so basic, they should be scoffed at and not to air them.

Because this is not what she expected. She expected to be thought of as weird. or different or out there because that's what she wanted to be thought of as unique, not basic.

Simone Collins: That's

Malcolm Collins: the biggest [00:44:00] fear of every teenage girl is that they'll be thought of as ordinary. I'll put the American beauty.

Speaker 5: I don't think there's anything worse than the.

Malcolm Collins: You haven't even seen American beauty all the way through.

I tried to watch it with you and you like stopped.

Simone Collins: No, but I'm going to give you clips from virgin suicides because That also is just so

You're not even old enough to know how bad life gets. Obviously, doctor. You've never been a 13 year old girl.

Malcolm Collins: And then other clips here the Quotes The countdown has begun. They'll know what I mean when the time comes. Um Well, and I, I

Simone Collins: do wonder what If the boyfriend has access to this Google Doc, did he not

Malcolm Collins: No, this is not Google Doc stuff, this is stuff she was posting publicly leading up to this.

Simone Collins: No, no, no, but I'm referring to the Google Doc manifesto that he shared.

Malcolm Collins: I wouldn't have thought that this definitely meant a school shooting was coming. Oh,

Simone Collins: I mean, you know, you weren't 90 [00:45:00] percent sure.

Malcolm Collins: Genuinely, my thoughts if I was a boyfriend is, she's gonna spell check this before she does the school shooting.

Like, I'm gonna grammar check this before I'll get scared when she grammar checks her manifesto, but an ungrammar checked manifesto. I'm like, she's probably not going to leave that public. We've been seriously depressed before you just kind of things fall through the cracks. You know, here, here are some other social media posts leading up to this.

Okay. I am a shadow, but I will make them see.

Simone Collins: Oh,

well, if she wasn't dead already, she'd die of the cringe as she read back what she posted.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, actually a lot of this reads to me somebody who might have become like an interesting based person if they had made it out of this phase. That's

Simone Collins: the, that is the tragedy. That is, I mean, well, the, the, the tragedies, the, the innocent people too, who were killed by this, which is devastating.

I, I, I mean, we, we freak out. I mean, [00:46:00] our son asked to go to public school and one of my first thoughts when we were like, well, I mean, you want to try it out, but I'm like, oh. I don't want him to get shot. You know, it's, it's just a thing in American public schools. And I don't like that. And this is no, no.

Stanley, well, do you want to tell your father about what happened at school today? I flunked my math quiz. No, the other thing. What other thing? Oh, the school shooting? Yes, the school shooting! Oh yeah, some kids shot up the school. Was it you? No.

Did you get shot? No. Oh. Well, what's this about failing a math quiz?

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's really sad. We should get flak jackets for our kids. Good weight training anyway, you know?

Malcolm Collins: That'd actually be quite a [00:47:00] thing. And I think we should do it. Is there a kids going to school in flak jackets? If he won't leave public school, we will send him in a bulletproof vest and other people might make fun of him.

And he's like, Hey, school shootings are real. Like he'd be, he'd be known as like such a thing on, on, on campus.

Simone Collins: Oh, he'd just be like, punch me, bro. Cause he keeps saying bro now. My God, bro. He won't stop. Everything's bro. Oh boy. Geez. Okay. I need to get him on like 1950s slang. That'd be much better. Gee willikers.

Gee willikers. Come at me, sir.

Malcolm Collins: But yeah, you're, you're right. I love you to ask Simone. And I, I, I think it's important to investigate things like this so that we can learn how to raise our kids better.

And to avoid. Becoming this sort of person, you know, because people are always like, Oh, your kids are gonna like kill you or go crazy or whatever.

Right. And I think that, it's very [00:48:00] important that we investigate why people actually go crazy. Like, what are they talking about?

Simone Collins: Well, so let's break it down, make sure they're heard, give them agency. Cause she really didn't feel like she had agency in the world. Give them hardship and responsibility and like, you know, make them touch grass and by make them touch grass.

I mean, Surround them with things that make them realize that the world is not all about them, that there are other people around them who also have needs and also live in the world. So they don't realize they realize that there are a small, yes, they're small and yes, they're meaningless, but they can also fix things and make a big difference in other people's lives and in the world, you know, because she'd gotten half the way there, right?

I'm small, I'm meaningless. No one cares, but she didn't go a little bit further. to be like, oh, and because other people don't care about me, they only care about themselves. I can impact their lives in a way that's very meaningful to them, you know, and I can change the world because a lot of people are very thoughtless and not changing.

Malcolm Collins: And I think the final thing is [00:49:00] have a masculine Goal directed figure in their lives and when people hear masculine today in an online environment What they hear is oh like andrew, right? Yeah, I always point out No, no. No, you don't want to be the claudius from the movie gladiator. You want to or the comedist from gladiator?

You want to be max really? Maximus you want to be the, the leader. The person was a vision for a better future because that is what women actually are drawn to. They are drawn to individuals with agency who want to make the world a better place and have an, a plan for doing that an aspiration of doing that, if you look at her complaints about her father and stuff, like he sat around all day smoking weed, like that is the antithesis of that, right?

Simone Collins: This sort

Malcolm Collins: of.

Simone Collins: When I hug our kids each night and tell them that I love them and tell them that their job is to fix the world and they promise to fix the [00:50:00] world. I really mean it. I'm like, I really need you to fix the world. Octavian Torsen. Like, please, you don't understand. Like, but actually.

Malcolm Collins: I

Simone Collins: love

Malcolm Collins: it.

Because no one else is, that's always a weird thing to me that so many people are like, wow, you guys like, so have like main character syndrome and it's like no one else is doing anything like what you have to have main character syndrome main character syndrome isn't a bad thing. Everything of grandeur in this world.

Was achieved by somebody with delusions of grandeur. That is the only All grandeur starts with

Simone Collins: delusions. Yes, it is, it is proper.

Malcolm Collins: That is the only way you fix things. You have to be willing to have the type of aspirations for yourself and for the future that when you tell someone, like Noah's Ark, they're like, wow, that's f*****g crazy.

And you're like, well, no one else is doing it. Anyway, love you to death. Have a great day.

Simone Collins: I love you too. [00:51:00] Hug

Malcolm Collins: your family and be nice to your parents people. If you're a teenager and you want to look down on them, you are pre programmed to feel that way. Try not to try to see some continuity. Look to your ancestors.

You can't admire your parents.

Simone Collins: I love you. I hope people get better. I'm sorry for everyone who was hurt by this. The end. The end.

And we'll

do the totally

Malcolm Collins: straight

Simone Collins: neck. I saw something that about historical spoons. Remember when we went to that museum in St. Andrews and they had the spoon that you needed to take to the cafeterias to eat?

Malcolm Collins: No, I don't. You don't

Simone Collins: remember there was like a little like glass case that showed someone's spoon because every time you went to the cafeteria to eat at the university when it was first founded, you [00:52:00] needed your spoon

Malcolm Collins: in the 1400s.

That's wild.

Simone Collins: Like a long time ago. You know, everyone had their own utensils and This concept of being born with a silver spoon actually probably meant that you were born with a silver spoon, like really fancy, you know, instead of maybe like a wooden or iron spoon or whatever it is that everyone else ate with and now I understand why that ceremonial gift came to be.

Because I never, I had a

Malcolm Collins: silver spoon as a kid. I remember it in among my baby gifts because I saw the yeah, it's

Simone Collins: still, it's still a common ceremonial baby gift in some cultures to give them a silver spoon, but it, I never understood it or the phrase he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. And now I get it.

If you live in a society where everywhere you go, you have to have an eating utensil. You go to a restaurant, you have to bring your eating utensil, you go to a cafeteria, you have to bring your eating utensil, you [00:53:00] go to your family's dinner table, you bring your own eating utensil. If you are showing up with the Ferrari of eating utensils, wow.

Well, he was

Malcolm Collins: Everybody notices that. Everyone notices that.

Simone Collins: Because otherwise you have to like save up for an ice spoon, you know. By the way This is what people struggled for in the past.

Malcolm Collins: You did a great job with the salsa you made me. A few notes. Okay. Blend it longer. Some things, especially the jalapenos, were not properly chopped up, like they were still really big chunks.

But other than that, really solid job. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think The, the, the recipe that I was following just had you put everything into, the thing is they had you put everything into a blender, but we don't have a blender. We only have a food processor and it doesn't quite blend non chopped foods the same way.

So I just have to account.

Malcolm Collins: Should we get a blender? They don't cost much.

Simone Collins: I was thinking about getting one on Black Friday, but we just don't have a lot of space for

Malcolm Collins: appliances and we have,

Simone Collins: are you serious? We have an entire basement with, with shelves. It's already so cluttered. If [00:54:00] you get, okay, we can get a blender.

If you get rid of those plant things that you're never going to use together, taking up so much space, a deal.

Malcolm Collins: No, not at

Simone Collins: all.

Malcolm Collins: I will use those again. Okay.

Simone Collins: How about this? You need to use them or they will disappear. No,

Malcolm Collins: because the kids will likely use them.

Simone Collins: You really think so?

Malcolm Collins: I really think so, yes.

Simone Collins: Alright.

Speaker 6: Octavian, I want to, I want to ask you about the really cute note you had written for me saying, Mommy, I'm going to give you money tomorrow. I love you, Mom, from dear Octavian. Why did you decide to write that note?

Because you want it to be nice? But we have to find it first. Hi, Titan! Hello, love! Hi! Aww! Big hug! You're so fun!

Do you want some popcorn for dinner? [00:55:00] I made some. Yeah, buddy. What?

Speaker 7: Toasty!

This episode explores the contrasting approaches to friendship and family within Jewish and American Protestant Christian cultures. Through a detailed comparison, the speaker discusses how Jewish holidays and observances often include non-family members, contrasting this with the more insular family-focused events in certain Christian traditions. The discussion extends to examples from other cultures, including Catholic, Muslim, and Mormon communities, highlighting the social dynamics and the impact on community cohesion and individual behavior.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone.

Today. We asked the question. Why did Jews have friends? This question may seem odd at first to someone, but when I go through it, you're going to be like, Oh, wow, that is actually kind of weird. Specifically, what I will be laying out is that if you look at most Jewish holidays or religious festivals Or religious observances, they are encouraged to invite non family members, sometimes even non Jews. However, if you look at, and I'm talking about my own cultural background you know, coming from a Christian culture, from one category of Christian culture in America, and we'll do some diversification of the various Christian cultures, but the Christian culture that I come from, American Protestant Christian culture There are very few religious events or [00:01:00] celebrations in which you would invite people who are not extended family.

If I am inviting somebody to Christmas or to Thanksgiving That is basically an indication that I plan on marrying them. Like it's not even, it's seen

Simone Collins: culturally as one of those big leveling ups in a relationship. If you go to your girlfriend or boyfriend's house for Thanksgiving or Christmas, cause that is a sign of serious commitment.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and it made me realize how distant the culture I grew up in was from Jewish culture when we had a very Chabad guy very, you know extreme what's the word? I'm looking here very orthodox jew come to our house. He's a fan of the show really like the guy. He's actually inspired a number of episodes and he was talking with our son and he said something that sparked this whole chain of logic for me

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: He was interacting with our son and he said, Do you [00:02:00] have any friends? And my son said, Yeah, I have two friends. And he goes, What are their names? And he goes, Torsten and Titan. And those are our two other older kids names. And then he goes, Well, those are really your friends. Those are more like, Your siblings, do you have any friends?

And in my head, I'm immediately thinking, wait, what are you talking about? Your siblings are always your best friends. Why would you ever like all other friends come after family?

Burdened with new friends and tormented by the bounty hunter chains,,

Malcolm Collins: And a lot is bigger than water. Yeah. Yeah. That was said all the time to me growing up. Interesting, and that is a very bad metaphor to use because in the context of the Bible where it's being written, it is the blood is not thicker than the water of heaven.

It is, it is used to argue against this idea,

The original wording is the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, where it water. It's supposed to be familiar where relationships and blood is supposed to represent chosen [00:03:00] relationships. Whereas today it's often used where blood represents familiar relationships and water represents chosen relationships.

It reminds me a lot of another commonly misused phrase where people say.

I am not my brother's keeper. And I'm like D. Dan do you know the context of that line? Do you know the context of that line? That's a guy. Saying to somebody accusing him of killing his brother when he did kill his brother. Oh, I I'm not, I don't always know where he is. But people say that to like, legitimately be like, well, you know, I'm not responsible for him.

but it got me realizing that when I started to go through many of the Jews who I know, or many people who are descended from Jewish cultural groups, they are really big, Unmaintaining friend networks. Whereas if I go through the people who are closer to me culturally, they very rarely have wide friend networks and they [00:04:00] really prefer to have strong relations with family members.

And when I say strong relations with family members, I might be on the extreme side of this because I'm from that backwoods American, like greater Appalachian culture mixed with some of the Puritan American culture. But like I started a company with my wife, my brother started a company with his wife when I was thinking when the Jewish guy was over and he's like, well, who in the area do you hang out was or would you feel comfortable with your kids spending time with?

Like, I would never take my kids to spend time with like a friend from school, but like my brother's family, of course my dad worked on a company with his sister. Before that, he worked in a company that his grandfather founded. Right now he gets dividends, which pay for his living expenses from a company, a cousin started that he invested in.

Like this idea of working and keeping it within the family is very and we've even looked at this ourselves. Like when we have our kids like play work games, you encouraged them to work together and I can play a little. clip here where they're making paper airplanes as a group to [00:05:00] sell because they decided they wanted money to do things together to get guns for the group so they could all shoot at each other.

Simone Collins: Yes, this was to buy XJOTGUN.

Speaker 5: And then it's gonna go to triangle one. So, and now we gotta fold the wing, right? and make anotheR one

I will get them.

Speaker 6: Oh, Torsten. Let's

Speaker 5: put this wizard on our place

Malcolm Collins: yes. So what I'm going to do in this video is I'm going to bring receipts for this because some people might be hearing this and they might be like, if you don't know a lot about Jewish culture, you might be like, maybe he's exaggerating how much friends are invited. We're going to then go deeper into Christian culture, at least the Christian culture I'm from, that is very sort of antagonistic to friends outside the family.

We're going to then go over other Christian cultural groups, which do the same thing. And then we're going to contrast these with other religious and cultural groups that are actually closer to Jews in terms [00:06:00] of, you know, The Christian cultural groups that do this are actually quite unique. There's very few cultures on earth that are this focused on extended family networks in their traditions itself.

Simone Collins: I'm excited to dive into this.

Malcolm Collins: Some Christians may hear this and they'll be like, Oh no, no, no, like what about going to church? That's engaging with people who aren't your family. And I'd say, you haven't gone to a historic American church recently, have you? If you go to American churches that are over 100 years old, What you will notice is that they are laid out so that each family had a private booth where you would not interact with people outside of your family.

Well,

Simone Collins: not necessarily. I mean, there would be like the family pew, and you always sat in the same spot. I would, I see it as akin to having that lunch table. In high school, where it's like, no, no, this is the popular girls table. You don't sit there. That's for

Malcolm Collins: them.

Simone Collins: It's not necessarily

Malcolm Collins: even in the face of a religious gathering, isolate people based on family networks.

Like these, these pews had doors to them. You would open a door and then go into a walled [00:07:00] pew. So you could see the priest, but you didn't have to look at any of the other churchgoers.

Simone Collins: So,

Malcolm Collins: when I went to AI and asked about this, it said, Jewish holidays and celebrations often emphasize the concept of Oh, trim or trim which I'm pronouncing it totally. You're going to butcher this.

Yeah. Which translates to welcoming guests, which is considered a significant mitzvah commandment in Judaism. This practice extends beyond family to include friends, acquaintances, and even strangers. Examples of Jewish holidays that encourage guest invitations. Passover Seder. It's common for Jewish families to invite friends, colleagues, or even strangers to their Passover Seder.

This practice aligns with Haggadah's instructions to, quote, Let all who are hungry come and eat, end quote. And I note here, we've seen this a lot. I've had lots of Jewish friends, despite them only making up, like, 1. 5 percent of the American population, we regularly get invitations to Jewish religious gatherings.

I don't think I've gotten an [00:08:00] invitation to a Christian religious gathering in years at this point. I, I've had people suggest maybe you should go to your local ex church, but I haven't had a personal invitation to come to my family's, this event, like come to our family's.

Simone Collins: like services, church services.

Malcolm Collins: Next Rosh Hashashana. Many Jewish families invite their friends and acquaintances to their Rosh Hashashana meals, which is seen as a way to start the new year. Rosh Hashanah. I know I can't pronounce anything, okay? These foreign words are caustic to my tongue. Sukkot. During this week long festival, it's customary to invite guests called ushpinzin to share meals in the Sukkot.

This often includes both family and non family members. Shabbat dinners. Our family

Simone Collins: is never going to be confirmed as Jewish ever. Yeah, Shabbat dinners.

Malcolm Collins: Weekly Shabbat meals are frequently the occasions for inviting friends, colleagues, or newcomers to the community. [00:09:00] And then you also have the Minyam. Which is, if you're not familiar with how Jewish practice works, you need at least 10 other Jews in your area where you get together and worship together and worship in a way through your communion with this group which is not a family group.

Often, in addition to that, if you look at the way that they do a lot of the teaching of their stuff, instead of having.

One knowledgeable person stand on stage and talk and everybody's just supposed to like listen and learn from that Which is the way a lot of christian communities work. They'll have individual debates between two non family members where they will talk amongst themselves and build a greater understanding now, let's contrast the ways traditional american christian celebrations you have christmas.

It would be really weird to bring somebody who wasn't extended family to christmas Yeah, And bringing somebody to Christmas, at least in my family tradition, is an indication that you plan on marrying that person.

Simone Collins: It's more official than a proposal.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, it's much more official than the [00:10:00] proposal. If I propose to someone but I haven't taken them to a family Christmas that, that proposal means nothing.

Next you have Easter. Easter Sunday often involves extended family gatherings for meals and religious observances. In fact, the only part of Easter where I have ever heard of people bring non family members is a Easter egg hunt. But that's usually a community Easter egg hunt. If I'm thinking about family Easter egg hunts, like my family did Easter egg hunts every Easter.

You've done Easter egg hunts with me every Easter. I would never invite non family to that. It'd be super weird.

Simone Collins: No, only if friends happen to be staying with us, perhaps, during the holiday.

Malcolm Collins: That would

Simone Collins: just be some weird

Malcolm Collins: happenstance. And I think if you're not, if you haven't grown up in one of these cultures, you may not understand how weird this is.

It would be culturally weirder for me to have a non family member at Christmas than it would be for me to sleep with someone other than my wife. Like it would be probably about 50 percent weirder. This is why sometimes I hear about some other family, which we'll talk about from different Christian groups where they're like, [00:11:00] Oh, I invite like homeless people over for Christmas.

And I'm like, what are you doing? Like, that's really weird.

And there'll be like, well, you know, I like to do it. And it's like an act of charity for someone who's down and out. And that to me sounds almost like somebody being like, yeah, well, you know, sometimes my wife and I invite homeless people to sleep with us because, you know, they don't have a lot of stuff and it's nice that sometimes they get to screw my wife and I'm here like, bro, that is so creepy sounding like, what are you doing?

There are other ways you can be nice to homeless people

and I'm telling you this so that you can better model if you are not from a family centered cultural background, the way that people from family centered cultural backgrounds think about things. And perhaps better understand or predict the way they might react to something, because I understand not obviously not all Christians are like this, , Christian groups who we'll get to in a second. Are totally okay. Who is inviting homeless people do their Christmas dinners. , it's just that for me, the emotional response that, that evokes when I hear [00:12:00] that. Is.

Parallel to the emotional response I would hear of, sometimes I invite homeless people to sleep.

Was my wife. And the excuse of, well, we do it to be nice because they're down and out. Evokes of the same emotional response of EFI. Guffawed at the first thing. Well, I let them sleep with my wife because they're down and out. I'm like, well that doesn't explain it. There's other ways you can be nice to them.

Anyway, and then finally Thanksgiving, which an American Christian is, is it's not a technically a Christian tradition, but it's very part of the American Christian sort of folklore set of holidays. You would generally not invite non extended family members to that.

So, and I, and now I want to reflect more on just the Jewish friends that we have. So like, when I think about like one of our good friends, who's Jewish he lives like his house is connected to a friend's house and they like share parenting responsibilities. And we had actually talked about doing this with him.[00:13:00]

Like he, he was like, Oh, well, I might move where you guys are and do this with you guys. But and we're like, oh cool because people know that we do this with the people who who live next to us We give them a house in exchange for child care help, right? But he's like, Oh, and I would like to ensure that like, if we do this, you're going to have time to like, have regular dinners with us.

Right? Like maybe at least a couple dinners a week. And Simone and I are like looking at each other. No, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no. We would have a strong and I mentioned this because you know, in our society, we often forget this people I think are biologically impacted by their traditions pretty strongly.

Oh, yeah. And I can see members of my culture who were more like gregarious towards outsiders being much more likely to leave the culture and people from potentially different cultures like Simone, who are much less gregarious towards outsiders, finding this culture and way of living very appealing, which can lead to genetic concentration.

Now, if you look at how we work [00:14:00] with the people who help us raise our kids, we have. Basically no conversations with them outside of business ventures. It's like, Hey, we might be able to help you make money here. We might be able to help you make money here. We need help with this.

These are people who have been living next to us and caring for our kids every day for over a year at this point. I still don't know what religion they are. They don't know that we are pro natalist advocates. They don't know our religious beliefs but I really would not want to have like small talk with them.

I'd find that to be very painful for me. To be fair, you don't like to have small talk with anyone. True, but this is also, if you consider like Jewish celebrations for anyone who's not familiar, and I can put some video on the screen here, a lot of them involve like parties,

Speaker 7: Oh,

Speaker 8: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Music

Malcolm Collins: like a party that is If I was going to put it on a level between the type of Christian gatherings that I grew up with, and remember, I grew up in a Calvinist sect of Christianity, so it's going to be on the stream at the end of this, but I also went to Catholic events, I also went to, so like, let's put it on like a more middling Christian group, like a Catholic, if I compare it with like, You're, you're regular, extremely Orthodox Jewish celebration was a generic Catholic celebration.

It's like 50 percent on the way to being a rave. Like, it's, it's insane.

Speaker 10: [00:16:00] Transcription by ESO. Translation

Malcolm Collins: And Jews may think that this is. Would elevate their culture to me, but no i'm like, oh my god. Somebody's gonna touch me if I go there I'm gonna get like a random hug. I'm gonna get like, you know, this looks like way too much fun.

Simone Collins: Yes

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, somebody's gonna go up and expect me to like treat them with geniality even though they haven't proven themselves to me Like oh my god, uh that that squeaks me out

And I think some people might hear this. And because they have so oriented their value system to the value system that the urban mono culture provides them. They may think I am exaggerating or putting on a show here, but. I am not, this is genuinely horrifying to me asking me to go to one of these events is like singing.

Would you like to. Walk through these hot coals without shoes on. , it is not, it does not look pleasant to me, but, and [00:17:00] this isn't true of all religious celebrations. If somebody asks me to go to, for example, an Amish barn raising where I don't talk to people and I just do honest labor for a few hours.

And then the. The women go and bake nice foods and bring that to us with lemonade. After a long, honest labor, I would love that that'd be a lot of fun to do. Whereas, and I actually note it's not just the partying of religious celebrations that squeezes me out like Latin mass. Oh my God. The pointlessness of it.

I don't even understand what they're saying. So it's not that I feel just this way about Jewish celebrations, also anything that reeks to me of pointless ceremony, where nothing productive at achieved that also really squeezes me out and in. And drives me crazy. But, , I think in society you can say, oh, Latin mass drives me crazy.

And people were like, oh, I get why that would drive someone crazy. And you're like, but these parties also drive me crazy and they're like, I can't understand. Or you must be fronting. [00:18:00] Or you must not really mean that because in our society today, in that scene in a movie where, , you know, somebody from the dance floor walks out and puts out their hand and tries to bring the person onto the dance floor who really doesn't want to be dancing. Well, the convention is they take their hand, they go on the dance floor and then they really enjoyed themselves.

That is not me. That has never been me. I go on the dance floor and I am weirded out and it's not that I'm a bad dancer. I just don't like doing that.

Speaker 13: Prepare to interact socially. Reaction hologram on. I am reacting appropriately to the thing you just said. Small talk acknowledged.

Speaker 14: Ha ha, who's an anti social weirdo now? Not the girl who invented robot arms to hug strangers. Oh my god, I sound insane.

Malcolm Collins: and if you're and so do you have further comments on this?

Simone Collins: Well, I guess just for me, any [00:19:00] sort of social event means I just have to work extra hard to mask because me being around people is not natural in any sense.

So it's just exhausting. I don't get it. I don't understand.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we end up having to sleep a ton after I interact with people as well. It like really overcharges. My processing

Simone Collins: and I think on a genetic level, there are definitely people who are introverts and extroverts with introvert and extrovert being defined as whether being around people gives you mental energy or draws it away from you.

And I wonder if, on a religious level, there are some people who, like, let's, let's say your theory holds true and Judaism is a religion that really features a lot more socializing. Would then people who've genetically been Jewish for hundreds and hundreds of years. On average, be more extroverted. You would expect so, but I also am not sure because there's so much monasticism.

No, because there's another

Malcolm Collins: thing that's [00:20:00] counterfactual in this. Okay. So we were talking with this guy, very conservative, you know, he knows a lot of various like Chabad Jewish groups. These are the ones who dress weird, everything like that. Right. From a you know, average American's perspective.

Yeah.

And he mentioned that he hadn't heard a CPS being called on any of them.

And I thought this was very weird. Keep in mind, CBS has been called on 34 percent of American families, and I know virtually no one cultural group who's like a white American Protestant who hasn't had CPS called on them. And so I was thinking about what could cause this, and then I began to reflect on something else I've noticed about our Jewish friends kids.

Is that they are dramatically more timid and less risk taking than our kids. Our kids are very aggressive. Like, for example, when I had to punish my kid because he stole some other kid's game that is not the type of thing that any of our Jewish friends kids would do. They wouldn't just go up to another kid, Take their toy from them and, like, push them to the ground and start playing with [00:21:00] it.

They wouldn't, you know, when we've been out playing in dangerous places they don't get close enough to the creek to fall in. They don't, you know, pick up the extra big rock and accidentally drop it on their sister. They don't, you know, just this risk taking behavior is much lower. And I think that both of these might be downstream of the same thing, which is Jews might be more socially gregarious, but less risk taking more broadly.

And I think this might have to do with being overly the Jewish faction that survived. Now, we argue in our book this wasn't true of the older Jewish factions, but the Jewish faction that's dominant today was a Urban center focused culture and really specialized in being in urban centers. That's why they've been able to keep their fertility rates up, we argue, because they were exposed to the urban monoculture long before any other cultural group and they developed resistance to it.

But what it means is if you are a kid growing up in urban centers for many generations, and even today, I think it's something like 98 percent of Jews live in an urban center. You are going to be [00:22:00] like evolutionarily rewarded for being less likely to play on the street, being less likely to accidentally push around another kid who might be in a gang, be much less likely to be more gregarious socially, but in a very polite way, right?

And I think that this might also lead to the stereotype that is common. . Of the sort of Weasley Jewish kid that you have in a lot of media,

Speaker 11: I'm gonna make you a deal. What? That kid over there is having a really hard time right now, so I'm going to offer you 40 to not rip on him. 40 bucks?! Cartman, no Jew jokes. All you have to do is keep your mouth shut and you've got 40 bucks. Can you do it? It could be tough, but I'll give it a shot.

Alright. It's a real dry cold. That's the problem. The cold air makes me wheeze. Kyle, this is Cartman. He's my sort of friend ish. Nice to meet you, Cartman. You know, I saw that same jacket you're wearing at Bosco's for 29. 95. How much was yours? I'm just wondering if Bosco's is a rip off. Oh, man.

Oh, well, I grew up in the city. I really don't care for it. I come [00:23:00] from a Jewish family, which of course you already know because Kyle's from the same family.

I like to read, oh my god, I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to make it. I realize we're in the mountains, but do we have to freeze today?

Speaker 12: Now Kyle, I need you to be quiet. In my class, you need to be able to concentrate.

Speaker 11: Maybe we'll have to send him to concentration camp. Ah! Dammit, dammit, dammit!

Malcolm Collins: Which is

if you have this high gregarious, high timidity genetic cluster being selected for because of multi generation urban living you might come off as.

Obsequious or nerdy to other kids who are from more rough and tumble cultures And I also note this in terms of jewish kids ability to like focus and study One of the things I was noting is that our jewish friends kids when contrasted with our own kids at similar age ranges Are much better at like sitting down and studying for long periods of time Which is you know what they need to do if we sent our kids because we've even thought of doing this to like a local You something like that [00:24:00] to be trained the way the Jewish kids are they would just stand up and run off.

Like you'd say, sit in the chair and they'd be like, why? Like, are you gonna hit me? And they'd be like, no. And they'd be like, well, then why would I sit in the chair? I'm, I'm not off. Which is the way that they react to this stuff. And it's just a strong cultural difference. And then here I'd note if you're like, okay, so then what are, what is the ancestor of cultures like ours?

Like, you're talking much more like extended, Family networks where that is your social circle it is the people who are your cousins or your your second cousins you typically don't really talk to anyone outside of this network and when you do you generally distrust them and the reason that you're talking to them is generally because you want to ensure your kids have access to potential wives, or husbands or You're looking for a wife or husband

So as a note here, if you. In one episode I did, that was called something like we used to like our parents. , [00:25:00] I read from a book that my great, great, great grandfather wrote. , which I think does a good job of showing how in this culture, people related to families because throughout the entire book, I don't think he mentioned a single human being by name, who he's not related to yet.

He not only. Copious James mentioned his family members and how family members helped him out, like how his brothers. , helped pay for him to go get his law degree who worked at the local mills so that somebody in the family could be educated. Or how his uncle gave him a loan so that he could move his wife to Texas. But it doesn't just mention family members and not mention anyone, none of the family.

At the end of the book, there is a list of every living person. If it's related to. , just this really long list and what they do at slash have done. And then at the end of the list, he takes a great deal of pride and says, and I haven't noticed any degree in criminality in any of the Collins bloodline, , and, , This is apparently important [00:26:00] to him that all other family members and none of them had any degree of criminality.

I thought that that was interesting.

But there is one to note of a party in the book and it was, , like a square dance type party that he went to two. Originally meet the woman who he ended up marrying. So it's not that you would never go to a party at all, but then you go to a party with an instrumental purpose, which is finding the type of person that you would end up marrying.

For a movie that depicts this cultural group, you can look to the original home alone. In the original home alone, everyone who the family knows is part of their extended family network. And it may seem like a plot hole that when they are on vacation with their extended family network, they don't have literally a single acquaintance who they are not related to in their town.

They can go check on their house or in their kid. But if you are from this cultural group, that seems fairly natural to you. Also, , you can see. Traits that are common in this cultural group depicted in that movie. For example. , the protagonist [00:27:00] extreme level of confidence and cockiness when he goes and talks to somebody like the Santa Claus at the mall where he's like, Hey. I know how it works.

You're not fan of Claus. You work for Santa Claus. Now let's talk this through. , or that he immediately goes to a church when he is feeling unsure of himself. Or that his solution to literally any problem appears to be murder.

And I actually hypothesize That this notion we see commonly in America today that everyone is supposed to have lots of friends outside of their family, and that that is the culturally normative way to be, which the urban monoculture pushes really, really strongly. All this power of friendship stuff and everything like that.

I actually think that that is culturally an anathema. to most American cultural groups throughout their history and them attempting to overly adapt to this historic anathema [00:28:00] causes them a lot of distress. As to why they are attempting to adapt to this and where this misconception has come from, first, for the urban monoculture to deconvert somebody needs to push them away from their support network, which is going to be their family, which means it's going to create, or the iterations of it that create this narrative of, Friends good friends matter more than family found family, etc That's gonna do much better at spreading than the iteration which is like no you really should you know Honor your parents and stay with your family and everything like that so that's one thing is the urban monoculture pushes it but then secondarily, two groups which seem to outcompete other groups in america are Jews, Jews just get to higher positions faster in like media and stuff like that.

So their culture is going to predominate media at a higher rate than it otherwise would, and a group that I'm going to call the High Catholics. Now there are, and I don't mean this in terms of like, like, like, High Church Catholics. I mean this, like the [00:29:00] high elves, I'm going to divide the Catholics into high Catholics and, and low Catholics, like the wood Catholics or the, the Christian Catholics.

What's the difference? What's the differentiating line?

They are super, super different. And I actually hadn't realized it until I was prepping for this video. Because I hadn't been able to point to this before I would look at an individual like Nick Fuentes, who is a high Catholic, and I'd be like, why are you complaining about immigrants coming into our country?

They're majority Catholic. You want to. Create a worldwide Catholic government. Like, why would that be a problem for you? And what you want is a country that is all Catholic ruled by Catholics. What I realized is no, they're not Catholic. I mean, superficially, like the high elves are like, yeah, I mean, we're kind of the same thing as the wood elves, but like, let's be honest.

We f*****g hate the wood elves and look down on them. And I wouldn't let a wood elf live in a high elf city. Or certainly not one of Santy's crusty elves live in a high elf city. I'm like, what are we even talking about here? [00:30:00] Whereas the other elves, the low elves, I guess I'll call them are the Catholic group that we're much more friends with, which are often Hispanic Catholics.

Or they represent Other Catholic girls throughout history like the ones who formed the mafia or the mob and these groups high Catholics are very low on family. Like they are very pro

Simone Collins: and great at networking

Malcolm Collins: Outside the family very pro networking the community oriented Yeah, and very intellectualist often.

Simone Collins: That makes that makes so much sense. I never really thought about it that way, but I did have this sort of to evoke sets for Catholics in my mind, one being extended family, very family reunion, like oriented, very clan based, and then the other being.

Extremely community oriented, constantly doing things related to their church community or a broader network. And those don't really work well together. Yeah, they're, they're [00:31:00] really maybe I feel now, though, like, a lot of our Catholic friends would be saying. No, we absolutely do both. I'm super involved in my community, and we also do everything with our family, so I don't know, maybe they would disagree.

No, no,

Malcolm Collins: no. They, when they say that, they mean that the same way a Jew does. By that, what I mean is Jews are both, it's not like Jews don't care about their family. Yeah, the family

Simone Collins: gatherings that friends come to are still family gatherings.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they still have family gatherings, but they're much closer to high Catholics in that regard.

Like when I imagine a modern high Catholic in America meeting one of their maybe. Mob family or mafia, family ancestors. , it's sort of like.

A high elf meeting, Christmas elves.

Speaker 3: What the fudge are you wearing?

Speaker: Oh, these are my iron silk robes. Light as a feather, but stronger than You look

Speaker 3: ridiculous, is what I'm saying. He does! He does! You ever [00:32:00] see an elf wear something like this before? That long cape, that'll get stuck in a toy machine for sure. Your foreman lets you wear that? Okay,

Speaker: all the elves in Kalendil wear iron silk,

Speaker 3: dad. If you can call them real elves. Wow.

Speaker 2: Tell us all about Calendule.

Speaker: The shining jewel of the East, where a multitude of voices rise to sing the secrets of the moon to the forest. .

Speaker 3: What do you do in the big city, huh? What do I do? I

Speaker: forge fallen stars into the blades of champions. I whisper enchantments into the shields that guard the realms of men.

Speaker 3: You make money off of that? Jingle. I'm curious. I don't understand. How do people pay for that?

Speaker: You know, maybe I don't make a toy maker's salary dad, but at least I'm not a slave to a fat human.

Oh, oh, oh! Oh!

Speaker 3: You couldn't just be a normal elf.

Speaker: Whoa, okay. Hold up. Hold up, hold up. What is a normal elf to you? [00:33:00] I'm a normal elf. That's super racist.

Speaker 3: Huh? Oh, I guess everything's racist now. Hi elves.

Speaker: North Pole Elves, Wood Elves,

Malcolm Collins: And if we talk about how family focused some low Catholic groups are like the, and I, and I should say, I mean low, like I think high, more highly of the low Catholics than I think of the high Catholics. I'm not saying low as a derisive term. I'm saying it more that when I imagine high Catholics, They remind me of high elves just very sparkly buildings, like thinking they're, they're very high and mighty, all that.

So, the low cast like friends we have, like I think of one who's an immigrant from Latin America and he jokes that his family calls him. simply because he talks to people who are non family. He's like, yeah, mostly we just talk to family members in the family. And it's actually considered quite weird to have friends who are outside your family.

And that is somewhat weird was in my family. Like most of the friendships you have outside the family are supposed to be for some form of utility as people have even [00:34:00] seen from like my bigger philosophical takes around this. So before I go further, anything you want to add? No. Now I want to talk about another weird thing that I was thinking about, which is that family oriented culture, like clan oriented culture, family oriented is the wrong way to put it.

I'll put it like clan oriented culture. The way it relates to family is much less hierarchical in a way than the way that Let's call it friendship oriented culture relates to family. So what I mean by this is in for example jewish families When the family is vetting a potential spouse Which is common in conservative jewish families of the the parents, do that that is done by the parents whereas in the culture that I come from that is done primarily by the siblings You What your siblings think of a potential spouse matters a lot more or girlfriend or boyfriend Matters a [00:35:00] lot more than what your parents think of it and that when we're raising our kid because I was thinking like Oh what you know it's so weird that in jewish culture like when we were talking with him There's this focus on do I approve of who they're married?

Like do I approve of like earning their parents approval? whereas I was thinking, well, I would never care about, like, approving who my kids are marrying in a big way. Like, that's mostly going to be their siblings. And if you're not familiar with this trope, think of if you're used to, like, a story about an Appalachian family where somebody was dating in it or like a rural American family that somebody was dating in typically it's their brothers who are gonna beat you up if you do something wrong to the girl.

It is the

Simone Collins: I mean, I'm not sure I agree. Because most of the tropes still center around fathers vetting. Like, the classic Protestant father interviewing boyfriends before [00:36:00] they go on a date with a daughter.

Malcolm Collins: I have seen that in some stereotypes, but just in my real life, but I've seen more, especially in families with lots of kids.

It is a sibling's job. And, and there's actually a reason why it's the sibling's job. It's not like a completely, like I was even explained to my parents. This is why parents don't vet their children's wives. Or in my case, wife in our cultural group. And they said, because if we did and we disapproved of a wife, but then you ended up marrying her anyway.

We could end up being cut out of your life and our grandkids life. So it's much more important that your siblings take on that role than we take on that role. It's our job to make a new spouse feel welcomed. This is avoided in jewish culture because when ultra conservative jews are dating Typically the dating prospect is vetted by the parents before they ever meet the person they're going to date

But this has the negative externality You Of leading you to go through like hours of [00:37:00] betting from parents before you even get to meet the person and you're like, Oh, I immediately didn't click with this person.

I could have known that after three minutes. And this is why you don't do that in, in Jewish culture.

This optimization is actually fascinating to me because both cultures have optimized around the same problem in radically different ways due to just reword how Jewish culture handles this in extremely conservative Jewish culture. You typically need to be approved by the parents before you can date someone that way.

There is no risk of quote unquote catching feelings for someone who the parents wouldn't approve of. Whereas in Appalachian culture, parents generally are indifferent to, or always welcoming of who you are dating, unless they're like an absolute no, no, no, you shouldn't be with this person. And the core job of protecting somebody from making bad decisions around who they date are married, is left to the siblings.

And it's also the sibling's job to enforce [00:38:00] that. Both of these fix, the problem of somebody gets married to somebody who created a beef, was one of the families and ends up splitting the culture. Intergenerationally speaking.

, but does it in completely opposite ways almost.

So I thought that that was really interesting as well. Now here I wanted to talk about other cultures. So Mormons are another culture that is very focused on friends, like community friends depending on the group of Mormons who you're interacting with.

So some Mormons are like only the Mormon church. Like if you're talking to somebody outside the Mormon church, you better be trying to convert them. Because if you are not, then you are contaminating yourself. However, they are very gregarious within the church community itself. And in addition to that they have what they call a culture of inviting.

And this is partially to convert people as well, where they do shared meals , attend church services that are not family segregated and read religious texts as [00:39:00] groups. And

Simone Collins: Yeah, in my experience, With people who are active in the LDS church is that they would, you would get a calling and your calling would involve volunteering, even like, from the age of being a fairly young team, you'd be playing a piano or you'd be helping out of the daycare services.

You wouldn't be doing everything with your family. You'd actually be separated. from your family by duty during normal church services to do your part to help the community. So I feel like that sort of actively by design is breaking people up and encouraging people to make inter community friends.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, absolutely. And the, the if you talk about Muslims as another cultural group, despite some Muslim cultures being very family focused because if you talk about like rural Muslim cultures, a number of them are very family first focus Islam as a religion is very, very friendship focus and our family focus.[00:40:00]

So, if you look at something like Ramadan celebrations you hope in open iftars fast breaking dinners where they invite friends, neighbors and community members and I have been to these myself. Where, like, a local rich person will just have a group of people come in, like, have a feast, and then the next group comes in, and they'll do this with, like, five groups in a row.

Like, they are so gregarious focused. But it's very much focused on the wealthy being gregarious to the less wealthy. That's a big part of Muslim gregariousness. Where it's, like, they're establishing their local status by doing this. Yeah. So it's not as similar as, as, as Jewishness where it's very not like a status thing to be inviting people.

It's very much like a I genuinely want to involve myself with the community. There really is this elevation of friendship as a value is in Jewish culture.

And then you also have community based stuff within some Muslim celebrations, like Eid celebrations and stuff like that which can be more, I think, [00:41:00] like wider community based than many Christian celebrations. So,

with all of this being the case, I wanted to talk about, like, the positives and negatives of these two cultural situations. First is just that some are going to appeal much more to people with some, like, pre level genetic selection than others. A culture like ours is just gonna heavily, heavily, heavily appeal more to introverts than non introverts.

Oh, for sure.

And when I say introverts and people might be like, Malcolm, you're pretty gregarious. Like you talk to a lot of people. Yeah. But I forced myself to, I would always rather be at home with my wife.

Simone Collins: We're hardline introverts. There's no getting around it. We can't being around people is like.

shoving a fist into an ice bucket. We can handle it with each passing second. We're like,

Malcolm Collins: Oh, even talking to people who aren't you like makes me actively angry if [00:42:00] they're not saying something that is of utility to me. Like when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, what's going on in my head is always, okay, what's your point?

Like, what's the piece of information I'm supposed to be taking with this? Cause I want to leave. I want to be out of here. Okay. That's when I'm not on performance mode. Sometimes when I go to like, nights out and stuff, I basically go to performance mode, or I'm like, okay, I'm basically doing a performance to get these people to like me.

Which And you're, you're gone. You're not even there. Yeah, like, you and me are like, totally masking at those, like Yeah.

You know, you're thinking about the way people typically describe introvert versus extrovert. And neither really fits Simone or myself where they will say that you are extroverted. If you get sort of emotionally recharged by interacting with people and you are introverted. If you get emotionally recharged by being alone, where I realize on multiple occasions, Dimona have had this conversation with me where it's like, well, we really get the most emotional recharge. In time that we spend together, , specifically Simone and I, or with the kids, [00:43:00] not anyone else. , and it's had me realize that. Maybe there's a third category here, which has like family verts, , which is to say that you get emotionally recharged by spending time with family. But not with friends.

Strangers. Acquaintances. , or anything else like that?

, and I say that for Simone and I were probably a bit union. You need a bit of time with family, a bit of time alone. , and without that, we would feel really drained, but I could live my entire life, not talking to another person again.

So I, I think that one, just each of them, but for like some people, they may come from a culture and then see these Jewish celebrations where like everyone's drinking and singing and everything like that.

And they're like,

Simone Collins: sign me up for that. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Sign me up for that. That looks like a lot of fun. Or they see, See them all like laughing and reading stuff to each other, engaging with each other. And they're like, Oh, that looks really fun. Like it's really for some people. Absolutely. Just not a, yeah. So I think there's that too.

[00:44:00] I think it likely helps them in terms of and we mentioned this in our, Episode on Jewish iq. And, and we argue that it's a myth that Jews have a significantly higher iq. And I argue that actually the reason why they perform so much better is just they're much more likely to cold email people or cold reach out to new people.

And I think that that is downstream of this, this cultural appreciation. of making friends with people in a wider network. And I'd even put this to you, Simone. We have fans reach out to us all the time. Well over 50 percent of the fans that reach out to us are Jews. I'd say probably like 60 to 70% of the fans that reach out to us are Jews.

So True. Which is definitely not representative of our audience. So people who reach out to inte disproportionately, they are

Simone Collins: Catholic and

Malcolm Collins: Jewish. Yeah, they're not Jewish. They're Catholic almost entirely. And I think that this is also like the, the Catholic group has outperformed [00:45:00] other groups as we mentioned.

In the United States, especially high Catholics. Like you look at the Supreme court and stuff like that, just hugely overrepresented. And I think that this might be that these two groups are just much more likely to decide to cold email and influencer who they like. Which I think in our previous world system provided you was a lot of power.

I don't know if it's going to continue to be as high utility with the rise of sort of disintermediated social networks that we have online. But it might, I think it hugely basically made it easier for Jewish and Catholic high Catholics to compete in an environment in which the media that you consumed was mediated by social networks, like who could get their own news show, who could become a talking head on a platform who could you know, I think that in that world, these two communities were given a huge handicap.

In terms of competing. I don't know if it's going to continue to matter as much a core challenge of [00:46:00] being this gregarious to outsiders is that it's pretty unlikely to convert new people I haven't heard of that many people who've converted to catholicism because of this even though high catholics do invite people to stuff a lot however it is very likely to infect your community with external ideas and the Catholic Church, especially the high Catholic Church, has been really infected by the urban monoculture.

As to why Jewish communities have been more resistant to this? Well, what I'd say is the ones who had any degree of susceptibility basically washed out. I mean, what are reformed Jews if not highly infected by the urban monoculture iteration of Judaism, which has significantly sort of dropped any rule or cultural custom they had, which conflicted with the desires of the urban monoculture.

And people may see that as offensive, but it's like, objectively true. That's like, broadly what it means to be a reformed Jew these days is that You're Jewish, except where Judaism conflicts with the mainstream cultural [00:47:00] value system of the far left. Which is the urban monocultural value system.

So, ideas here, Simone.

Simone Collins: I can't think straight when there's a baby crying.

I, I struggled to see where there's really this difference across. I think that there are plenty of, we'll say low Catholic families who engage a ton of their community and network a lot. And even like within that mafia stereotype, there is a ton of, examples of the mafia bosses being super involved with the community, engaging with others, et cetera, to build the network that they need to have a successful family business.

So, I just, I don't think the distinguishing It's very,

Malcolm Collins: very different. Really? So, when these sorts of clan cultures are engaging with outsiders like in these mafia families and stuff like that, it's generally, It's generally Somewhat similar to the Muslim situation I was describing, where you are giving to your community to sort of show your status and your family status where, but you're not engaging them as human beings.

[00:48:00] You are inviting them to events. You are giving them food. You are giving them the opportunity to maybe go to a party or something like that. But they are not the same as family members. And they will never be trusted like a family member. And that a lot of this is, is downstream of, and I think to an extent you Simone grew up in one of these cultures that was broken because you were raised in a family that was of one of these cultures as a single child, which means that you just didn't see this as much.

You wouldn't have seen the strong family connections. I still had cousins. I still had. Which you said you played with all the time, and they were like some of your best friends growing up when we were talking about this this morning. That's not normal for a lot of people.

Also, your family was heavily fallen to the urban monoculture by the time they met you.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I mean they were already into like polyamory and you know, animal masks. I was [00:49:00] time, they didn't even have a word at the time. It was more like, I guess is what it was referred to at the time. Your mom was training to become a shaman When I met her.

Her,

Simone Collins: yes. The degree

Malcolm Collins: to which they had fallen from their cultural roots almost cannot be overstated. There was a great amount of drip. Yes. And so it might be that you just. grew up without any, even an echo or whisper of what your culture used to be. And so all you have is the genetic imprint of that.

Actually, I was talking to her about it this morning again, and I was like, you know, what's remarkable to me that your family even put on Christmases for you. And she goes, oh, well, they didn't do that voluntarily. I made them do Christmas every year. And I was like, oh, okay. So they were really trying to systemically erase any connection.

She had to any sort of, , ancestral culture.

Which is really interesting to me. Whereas for me,

Simone Collins: there's a lot of things that we've taken on as new traditions that feels so much more natural to me than how I grew up. And I think a lot of [00:50:00] people who get God or otherwise take on new traditions, like the track. First generation Catholics, I think, are feeling something really similar.

Like, the way they grew up didn't feel right to them, and now suddenly it does. But, let's wrap this up, because Emmy's crying,

Malcolm Collins: and I need to beat her before we move on. Okay well, I think the final thing I'd note here, because I've also been thinking about this, is in terms of religious ceremonies I have been to The group where I have gone to the most is actually Muslim which might surprise people.

And the reason is, is because they both invite you a lot, and they're not community focused, and they're generally giving you something, like a really nice meal, or access to someone in a position of power. With the Jewish ones, You might get a meal, but you know you're going to have to talk to somebody.

And I'm not as interested in that. And then with, it's interesting with the next one I've gone to most is Jewish ones. And then like, if I think about non Protestant [00:51:00] Christian ones, very few. And if you can be like, what do you mean? Like you don't want to go to a high demand religious thing. Well, think about your Mormon friends when they invite you to a religious thing.

Do you go to that? Are you like, oh my god, this is going to be like so high demand? No,

Simone Collins: yes, I go because they're wholesome and amazing and typically they're related to Christmas because that's when people can get me to go to anything.

Malcolm Collins: All right, love you to death, Simone. Have a spectacular day.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

I love Envy too and she's so sad.

Just FYI I think all she really needs is she basically didn't drink when she was supposed to.

Malcolm Collins: Side note on my part, I love that video you sent really good on, you know, watchers and view hours matter so much more than subscribers

Simone Collins: don't count,

Malcolm Collins: I guess, but they do count in terms of getting good guests on.

And they do count in terms of the, the watchers perception.

And I mean, I've always told you from the beginning I'm after watch hours and not, that's why I'm concerned. Totally true. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You saw [00:52:00] how. Effectless and meaningless subscribers, not to say anyone subscribing doesn't count and I subscribe to a lot of channels and watch them religiously.

Please subscribe, I

Malcolm Collins: really want to hit the 30, 000 number by Christmas or New Year's at least.

Simone Collins: The watch hours are really, yeah. What YouTube uses to determine whether or not a channel is worthy of getting a bump in the algorithm. So, helpful recondextualization for me.

Malcolm Collins: And we can have a longer strategic discussion about how we might utilize that.

Simone Collins: And I'm still curious as to what the drone mystery is. It has not been resolved yet. The drones that are flying over our area. With your brother saying that there wasn't any because I can't believe we don't have A Geiger counter and he does.

Malcolm Collins: I love my brother like walking around with like a radiation meter.

He's like, I'm checking, but I'm not, you know, he's a very paranoid person.

Simone Collins: Well, no, he's just prepared. And we should get one. All right.

Malcolm Collins: He's a Geiger counter. I'm sure some of our audience owns Geiger counters and they're like, you [00:53:00] guys are the worst preppers ever. How do you not own a Geiger counter?

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, it's, it's actually useful. I mean, for example, here's this instance in which across our geographic area,

Malcolm Collins: you get to choose what you spend your time and money on. And for example, you right now have been on a kick of build it yourself, giant Faraday boxes.

Simone Collins: The only reason I'm going to build them myself is they're too expensive to buy.

And what's the point of having solar power generators for solar flares if they burn out when the solar. And so now you, you, you were like, Oh, well, we may not have power for weeks because of the solar flare. But thank goodness we invested in the solar powered generators throughout the house. And then we discover they've been fried just like everything else.

That's why they have to be in Faraday cages, but Faraday cages are too expensive, but surprise, surprise, heavy duty aluminum foil and foil taper enough to make a Faraday cage. He wanted to make a Faraday cage.

Malcolm Collins: Fortune, what you could do is buy just like a huge amount of Chromebooks, put [00:54:00] them in giant Faraday boxes and then wait till a solar flare happens.

Then put them up on a site like eBay or something. Because people would be like a manic to get those.

Simone Collins: Well, I was just watching the recent Danny Gonzalez video on Amazon returns and one by the. Person who kind of co did that video with as well. Maybe there's some way we can get a huge returns box of Chromebooks, you know, basically unused electronics.

Maybe that don't resell at really high prices and do that because also I'm starting to think because, you know, the, the earth is closer to the sun during the winter. So I imagine our solar flare risk is actually seasonal. Like it's higher now because we are closer physically to the sun at this time of year.

So it's, it's, it's, I really need to not put off making these Faraday boxes. You don't understand Malcolm. This is really important, but also I think your brother was, Smart to have a radiation meter [00:55:00] because there could have been a dirty bomb and that could be the reason why there are all these drones flying.

I wouldn't be surprised

Malcolm Collins: if his entire house is done like a Faraday cage, like the liver Kings.

Simone Collins: His wait, the liver King's house is like a Faraday cage.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. He'd be built his house into like a Faraday cage to like keep out signals. You don't know if it's true, but like, I

Simone Collins: know, but if I built a house. If I had the money to build a custom house, why not just make sure that, except how do you do the windows?

Right? All the walls can have foil in them. You don't need

Malcolm Collins: windows. Yeah. Okay. We'll get started. All right.

Simone Collins: Actually, you know what? There was a Zillow Gone Wild image of one, one room or no, actually the entire house, the entire house actually was metal on the inside. Do you remember seeing that one?

That one probably would functionally be a Faraday cage. I don't think it was advertised as such, but Oh,

Speaker 16: Show me what that is. What is that? Um, it's my paper airplane sign. And this is made out of paper. And right there, there's [00:56:00] a lot of paper airplanes I can sell. Okay, so you're going to go outside and you're going to show people your paper airplane sign. Yes, well I'm going to do that in two days because it's cold out there.

That makes sense. And um, when people see your paper airplanes and your paper airplane sign, they're going to give you money. Okay. Um, yes, I'm making money. And what are you going to do with the money? Um, I'm going to buy a remote control ball with it. Like anything. Yeah! I want a remote control ball! You want a remote control ball?

Yeah. It's a silly thing to want. Oh! Why I love you, Octavian. This is my paper airplane so everybody knows I'm my mom. Hey, Octavian, I really like how much [00:57:00] agency you're showing here. You wanted something, we said you needed money to do it, so you came up with a plan to make money. Yes! What are you doing jumping on me?

What are you doing? Oh!

Speaker 18: Hate the thought of party lights. Crowds and dancing give me fright. All I need is you tonight. No friends allowed, no social fights.

Brushed by strangers on the floor. Chatter that we both abhor. Close the door, let's ask [00:58:00] for more. In your arms, my spirit soars. No need for friends, just me and you. Silent nights, our love so true. Holding tight and breaking through. Together, always old and new. No more tipsy late night calls Running through the gossip halls Stay with me within these walls Love we have it never stalls Terrified of faceless crowds Conversations way too loud Hold my heart and not the crowd With your love I'm feeling proud No need for friends, just [00:59:00] me and you.

Silent nights, our love so true. Holding tight and breaking through. Together always, old and new.

No more tipsy late night calls. Running through the gossip halls. Stay with me within these walls Love we have, it never stalls No need for friends, just me and you Silent nights, our love so true Holding tight [01:00:00] and breaking through Together always, old and new

In this episode, we delve into the controversial topic of climbing Mount Everest and argue why it is an immoral pursuit. Starting with an interview with Eric Weihenmayer, a blind climber of Everest, we discuss the various arguments against the climb. We explore the significant risks to the Sherpas, who face astronomically high death rates, and lay out the dire environmental impacts, including trash accumulation and body retrievals. The episode makes a strong case that climbing Everest is a selfish, performative act that squanders substantial resources and poses serious ethical concerns.

Speaker 3: [00:00:00] We're going to interview

Speaker 2: Eric Weihenmayer, who climbed the highest mountain in the world, Mount Everest. But, he's gay. I mean, he's gay, excuse me, he's blind. So we'll hear about that coming up.

Malcolm Collins: Climbing.

Simone Collins: The best, the best piece of news reporting ever done, in my opinion. But,

Malcolm Collins: on the topic of climbing Everest, You have to be a complete garbage dookie soul of a human being to do this.

Speaker 9: You're an emotional f*****g cripple.

Your soul is dog s**t. Every single f*****g thing about you is ugly.

Malcolm Collins: And in this episode, we are going to be laying this out. Only garbage human beings climb Everest. And you could be like, Oh no, this is a direct attack. And yeah, it is a direct attack. If you did this, you're a shitty human being. And, but not for the typical reasons. And here I will post a guy who makes one of the typical arguments against [00:01:00] climbing Everest.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: which is just Sherpas die and are forced to do this. And that is bad. And then at the end of the video, I will explain why that is a terrible argument. That claiming Everest is immoral.

Speaker: Everest these days, which is the fact that if you climbed Everest in 2023, you essentially local people in order to do so.

The season began with three deaths of Sherpas who were carrying ropes and gear through the Khumbu Icefall. Fixing lines and ladders through the glacier, that is a task that has to be completed each year. If anyone is going to climb the mountain on the regular route, the deceased local workers can expect to receive only about 10, 000 as a payout from life insurance.

Ridiculous. To put that into perspective, 10, 000 is barely enough to cover the rising costs of living for a small family in Nepal. One estimate I read was that 10, 000 is enough to only keep the family [00:02:00] afloat. for about two years. Now, there were seven Nepali deaths on the mountain this year. Six of them were working, all of them Sherpas

Malcolm Collins: because it's not a very good argument when you actually look at the statistics.

It has some credence to it, but pretty, pretty low. For me, the core reason why climbing Everest. is so selfish was elucidated very loudly when I was talking to my dad.,

Simone Collins: We were talking, I think about inherent values or something like that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I was talking about like, what do you live for? Like, like what's a good life to you, et cetera. And I was arguing that he focuses a lot on trying to maximize the aesthetics. Of being an erudite person or some sort of aesthetic version of who he is. And when he's making decisions, he is making them based on how they change his internal perspective on himself instead of how they impact the world around him.

[00:03:00] And I view this as a very, very selfish way to live..

Simone Collins: You were like, and I'm doing this research for an episode on how terrible it is to climb Mount Everest.

And I'm like, well, at least Mount Everest is the highest mountain. This is not like Kilimanjaro. That's just like complete trash. Like the view is nothing. You're just walking up a dirty mountain, like across like gross, you know, you need like separate shoes just for like the bathrooms. Cause there's poop smeared everywhere.

Yeah. Just a disgusting experience. And you're just shuffling your way up because the guides don't let you walk quickly or anything. So it's incredibly boring. And he's like, Oh no, I've, I've, I've saw Mount Kilimanjaro. Like, and I was like, Oh no.

Malcolm Collins: And then it was like, I told him, I was like, but.

Dad, like, why would you do that? Like, what good does this bring to the world? This seems to be entirely based on masturbating sort of a self image of yourself. So he immediately goes. No, I didn't do it for that reason. He couldn't come up with another reason he had done it.

No, he said, I didn't do it for that reason. He said, well, [00:04:00] the one other reason he came up with was you do it to experience hardship. And I was like, b***h, you're the one who just spent all day complaining about our house being too cold. That is an area where we are creating hardship for ourselves, but saving money, which can go to making the world a better place.

Whereas you can't endure the minor hardships of daily life, which make the world a better place. But are able to undergo big performative hardships that end up costing a lot of money and time that you could spend on improving the world. But then he goes talking about his wife,

Simone Collins: they were in Aspen and she bragged to him about going for quite a few kilometers at a high altitude.

And he's like, well, but have you gone 100 kilometers at this higher altitude? And she's like, I don't even know where you would do that. And then he's like, well.

Malcolm Collins: Mount Kilimanjaro, which I've climbed three times, and I was like, Dad, you just argued to me that you didn't do this just for signaling purposes.

And literally in the next You go off on a tangent about how you [00:05:00] dunked on somebody in a signaling manner for climbing the mountain. It is very clear you only did this to signal to yourself the type of person you are.

Simone Collins: Yeah. To one's own wife, which is not even like, who are you, like, you don't need to marry you.

Like, what are you even doing it for? I won. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And so before we get further in this, this is my core complaint about this. Isn't that. It has such high costs. It will go over all of the high costs, whether they are to yourself or to the environment or to money that you are not spending on making the world a better place for such trivial differential benefits.

And by here, a differential benefit is that somebody goes, well, what about the hardship of climbing on Everest? And I'm like, There are hardships that you can endure, equivalent to climbing Mount Everest, that don't put random people's lives at risks, that don't waste tons of money, that don't waste years of your life that actively make the world a better place.

You, you So [00:06:00] why did you choose this hardship over those hardships? Because of the signaling ability it gave you. Or they'll say, well, what about like the views? It's like, well, you can look at a picture. We're going to VR simulation. We have those these days. And they're like, it's not the same.

And I'm like, yeah, it's not the same because you're not freezing your brain. butt off, you're not undergoing permanent brain damage, which by the way, you do undergo. Almost everyone who climbs Everest undergoes permanent brain damage. I'm going to put two studies on screen here. Only one in 13 Everest climbers had normal MRI scans.

So you have a less than 10 percent probability of not undergoing permanent brain damage. And this also Wow.

Simone Collins: I didn't know that. So you're really screwing yourself up by going.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. You're not just wasting tons of money. You're not just putting other people's lives at risk. You are permanently f*****g up your brain.

And this was true three years later. They did follow up scans on these people. Oh, so permanent damage? Permanent [00:07:00] damage, almost like everyone who goes. Specifically, you have frontal subcortical lesions, you have microhemorrhages, you have cortical atrophy, the loss of brain tissue, you have enlargement of the varicorobin spaces, fluid filled spaces surrounding blood vessels, you have subcortical lesions, white matter hyper intensities. You have reduced white matter density and volume, reduced gray matter density and volume in specific regions of the brain. And what does this end up looking like? You typically have a loss of memory both short term and long term, and barbia psychia which is a slowness of thought.

So you think slower afterwards.

Simone Collins: So you are, you are. Slightly retarding yourself for the rest of your life, just to be able to tell people that you climbed Mount Everest.

Malcolm Collins: And a lot of people are willing to do that. I mean, you

Simone Collins: already have to be so damaged.

Malcolm Collins: Other people's lives at risk, slightly retarding themselves for the rest of their life.

And they're not even [00:08:00] showing that they have done anything of particular difficulty anymore. You could just spend

Simone Collins: a lot of money. Yeah. You

Malcolm Collins: could just spend a ton of money and you know, there's been instances that we'll talk about like

Malcolm Collins: I kid you, not that guy, you just saw being carried down from Everest in a sack. That guy.

It's the same guy.

who you're about to see on tour and during this, he didn't even think the Sherpa who took him down.

Speaker 17: T. Ravi Chandran, intends to proudly wave the Jaluga Milang flag at the summit of all the world's tallest mountains. It does not matter if the mountain is steep or if he has to squeeze in between narrow crevices, he will not forget to carry the Malaysian flag with him.

Speaker 18: The first thing that we put on our tent is the Jaluga Milang. Oh, it's a boat. Um, pride

Speaker 17: he hopes the government will recognize his [00:09:00] contributions to the nation and will call on him to say a few words On Mede Kade,

Speaker 13: Wow! Look how far I climbed! And I'm not even tired!

Speaker 14: Wake up, you lazy Sherpas! We've got a mountain to climb!

Malcolm Collins: So there's

Simone Collins: the 1 instance that I learned about last year.

Who this is a 2012 instance of Sharia shock, chlorophene who was a Canadian who. Basically had no reason to have anyone permit her to climb Mount Everest in terms of her experience and her training, but she just basically paid so much to an outfit that was like, yeah, sure. Well, whatever you say you, you want to pay that much.

Okay. Let's do this. Because you can always get someone, you know, it was going to be like, you know, everyone has a [00:10:00] price. And that's the problem is now I think Everest is really full of unscrupulous climbing outfits that will just take about anyone. And she, by the way, perished in, in the dead zone on her way back down from the top on a uniquely crowded day because she ran out of oxygen because she used up way too much because she wasn't fit to climb this mountain.

Yeah, well hold people. That's other problem.

Malcolm Collins: Other people have made it down but have like screwed up other people's ascents. So there was another influencer Ravi Shandra, who was also found in the dead zone. He apparently was by himself there and some other team had to abandon their ascent. To pick him up and bring him down and he ended up not even thanking them thinking like his insurance company and sponsors and like pretending this didn't happen in like his tour about his climb.

But he, he made it to the top. And if you look at the pictures of this and I'll play some video of this,

Speaker 5: Camp two where I witnessed the most extreme enlarged lines of the entire season. as we were at camp two, we could see every [00:11:00] single team that was ahead of us moving up from camp three to Camp four.

I mean, my teammate Tyler described it as a black mamba, and there's just no other better way to describe that thing. If you saw my viral video of lines on Everest this year, this is most likely where it took place. And these same people went up to the summit together, and that just created even more lines, which were all documented as well.

Speaker 20: The lines. Everywhere you go. People. Crowds. all the lines, lines, lines! All the lines, lines, lines, lines! And then There get to be so many people that they make fast pass. So you stand in line to get a ticket to stand in line later.

Then there's lines for the bathrooms, lines for the drinks, lines for cantankerous and rare cantankula plates.

Malcolm Collins: It's just lines and line. It's a, it's a, it's a corporatized thing. Now you are going to the top to wait in line for an hour to spend a few seconds on the top of a mountain.

Simone Collins: Well, what makes things worse is the inexperienced climbers [00:12:00] make the line because they slow everyone else down.

Malcolm Collins: And you're risking your potential life and any other good you could do with your life. One to 2 percent of climbers who attempt to summit die. So you're risking your life.

You're blowing tons of money. How much money? 30, 000 to 160, 000. Although the sort of median range is 50 to 60, 000 per ascent. That's like

Simone Collins: an Oxbridge Masters. That, you know, good, like, year spent doing some really fun studying in a gorgeous place.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you could be doing productive work. You could be doing productive research.

Well, if

Simone Collins: you just want to do something indulgent, that's what I would do with that money. If I like, had

Malcolm Collins: nothing to do with my life. I would respect somebody more who spent that money just partying for a year. They would do less damage to their brain. They had better

Simone Collins: stories. It would be more fun, more interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. More interesting than I waited in line for ages.

Simone Collins: No, honestly, you'll probably do more good, like, getting s**t faced and, you know, You know, like, doing crazy things as [00:13:00] long as you don't drive or anything,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Right, but the, the, the point here being is that there's a lot you can do with 60, 000 that is good for the world.

Like, if you don't spend that on yourself, for somebody in a developing country, that can feed dozens of families. Oh, that's game changing

Simone Collins: money, yes.

Malcolm Collins: That could be spent on medical research. That could be It is, it is not like, Oh, I'm just spending this on myself, whatever. It is, I am choosing this to spend on myself for a completely self indulgent reason.

And I know, like, when I, I Self indulgent. Like, I play video games. That costs money, right? That doesn't make the world a better place. But I understand that I should be ashamed of that. Okay? You I wouldn't brag to somebody about how much video games I play or you know, I wouldn't brag to somebody that I hadn't wasted the time to like beat a Dark Souls game on whatever, you know, like [00:14:00] that is a sign of my failing as a human being.

Okay, my failing to vanity, my failing to addictive loops, my failing to. The worst thing you can do is to treat your sins as if they are virtues because it leads to terrible decisions like we see in the case of Everest. Now let's go over the costs of, of, of claiming Everest in, in terms of like the world.

All right. So body retrieval. There are approximately 200 bodies on Everest. Removing bodies typically costs between 50 and 100. 30, 000 and 70, 000 per body. In some cases they can reach 100, 000 or more. It requires six to 10 Sherpas working for most of a day to bring down a single body. So that's in addition to all of these costs, frozen bodies can weigh significantly more than their original weight due to attached ice.

Simone Collins: Oh gosh. Yeah. Oh, like when you have a slightly. [00:15:00] Yeah, something out of the freezer and it's all caked with not good

Malcolm Collins: and these have to be brought all the way down. Helicopters typically can't land above camp too. So you're bringing these down significant distances, risking the life of everyone who's carrying this body.

You know, this is a huge risk to them. And also that that person who died unceremoniously can like. Had a chance at bragging rights, had a chance to challenge themselves in a way that was pointlessly dangerous, pointlessly damaging, pointlessly expensive just so that we know, oh, oh, there's the body of somebody who would rather pay, you know, at minimum, you know, 20, 000 to masturbate.

Okay, but

Simone Collins: why can't we just create a body dumpster? On Everest, just out of the way, because it's an eyesore. Like I, I don't get, like, I, I get, I understand that it is. An eyesore to the [00:16:00] tourists, but honestly, they're kind of there to see the dead bodies. I say it's a feature, not a bug, right? As long as they're out of the way, just make a giant pile.

And then you have the benefit of having them see what a******s they are on the way down. I don't know why we're risking. You want to

Malcolm Collins: create a dump at the top of Everest and hear one of the base camps. This is a holy mountain to the Nepalese people. Yeah, and this

Simone Collins: shows, yeah, don't mess with the mountain.

Here's the giant pile of bodies to show what the, what the mountain is. No, no,

Malcolm Collins: you may misunderstand how holy the mountain is. So for Sherpas, for example, some of them have to spend like five hours a day on off season doing prayers just to ritually cleanse themselves. For the sin of going on to the mountain.

It is a very bad thing to do to leave bodies and to understand the size of the trash heaps up there as well. There's an estimated 40 to 50 metric tons of debris, like oxygen canisters and I'm

Simone Collins: sure people just dump them at the top. They don't care because, you know, You're about to die or something.

You don't really Well,

Malcolm Collins: the teams are, are [00:17:00] very selfish about this. It's even a common practice for teams to cut the logos out of their tents so they can just leave them at the top without being traced back to them.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's so screwed up.

Speaker 7: My expedition leader, Garrett Madison, actually commented about how some teams will cut their logo out of their tents, so when they go down and they don't need a tent anymore, they can just leave theirs there, because how is it going to be traced back to them? There's no repercussions.

Malcolm Collins: And Oh my lord. The war is now described as an actual dump, quote unquote, with piles of trash being left behind by descending summit teams emitting a foul odor.

So you're staying in a camp that smells like you're staying in a dump.

Speaker 6: Pushing right beneath the death zone at camp 4, it was an actual dump, like, simply put, this place was trashed. Just look at this video I filmed, I can barely name most of the things that are in this shot. It even smelled horrible up there, which is very weird because at altitude, I lose my sense of smell, but I walked in there and it smelled like something. I don't even know what.

Malcolm Collins: And now you [00:18:00] might have like a corpse pile near it. Bring in some necromancers, right? That's

Simone Collins: why I said the dead zone, they'll all stay refrigerated there. They're not going to thaw out in the dead zone.

Malcolm Collins: Even on the summit, people have found things like Coke bottles just like, oh,

Simone Collins: drinking a Coke at the summit.

Summit. She

Malcolm Collins: was. And and and to get them on people are dying, cleaning this up. So, for example, a Sherpa died during a cleanup operation on of trash from camp for and a soldier in the Nepalese army died at camp 3, while participating in a trash removal effort. So. Yeah. People are, so you're staying at dump sites sitting around in lines.

Mm-hmm . Like the people who tell me they're doing this for like, the awe and magistery of it. It's like, I've seen the pictures. Okay. You're do, you're clearly not. There are other mountains that you know, there are other things you could do. I wouldn't even say mountains, which I view as a, a very self masturbatory thing to do.

Mm-hmm . There are other things you can do [00:19:00] that don't require all of this. It's it's I just hate self image augmentation through expensive acts like that's I think when you know that your moral compass and the moral compass of the society that has raised you has just gone completely off the deep end.

No, I want to get into the arguments around Sherpas and is this immoral because of the Sherpas dying?

Simone Collins: I just I just looked up Mount Kilimanjaro toilets and I understand why you have to have a separate pair of shoes. To go into that s**t everywhere. Yeah, no. Like all the popular mountains are gross.

Don't like, why, why would you go onto them? You know, especially you can, in a good theme park, they're literally repainting overnight because there's so much gross stuff smeared onto the walls and and whatnot. You don't wanna go somewhere where there's a lot of foot traffic and not a huge amount of infrastructure to clean that stuff.

It's not [00:20:00] sanitary.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and it's like, why can't you just undergo the hardship of climbing a local mountain? It's likely just as beautiful. You, you don't have to put other people's lives at risk. You don't have Though all the Mr. Ballin videos don't,

Simone Collins: like, I think you and I would probably agree that it's just irresponsible to go out hiking, because keep in mind, there's Ballin and, and other like, you know, Missing411.

Stories about people who go out hiking and they want to go show off how like rugged they are and then they die and then a bunch of people spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, sometimes millions of taxpayer money, local taxpayer money to find these Yahoo's who go out even, you know, Seasoned explorers and stuff.

It's not okay.

Malcolm Collins: Designed to teach people and kids how to live outdoors and off the land. That is not Everest. Yeah, but you can do that without

Simone Collins: going into the wilderness. You [00:21:00] can do that with, in a safe nearby space where you're easy to find with cell phone coverage.

Malcolm Collins: And I point out that we are not like anti outdoor people.

My dad was on the board of like, outward Bound. Outward Bound.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And you used to work as a river guide.

Simone Collins: I was never paid. I was too young to be paid. You were

Malcolm Collins: too young to be paid, but you, you, you did do this every summer. You'd go be a River Wrath guide. And you still have the voice for it.

Like when she goes into River Guide voice, it's shocking to a lot of people. Because she can, like, get this booming voice out of nowhere that's very commanding and that she kept having to use it around our wedding because people, like, were, were doing it and saying, you know, go to the, go to the, anyway I want to get here to the Sherpa argument because I find this one more nuanced and less obvious than just a why are you wasting time on something that obviously brings no good to the world and it's just self masturbatory.

So, and here I would note that my criticism of climbing things like Mount Everest does not attach to people who are doing it for things that clearly have value, [00:22:00] i. e. if you're going up as a research team that, that, yeah, I'm like, okay, yeah, sure, research. But like, that's such a minority of people doing it, but like, I don't need to, you know, really pontificate on that.

Well, yeah,

Simone Collins: are you questioning Sherpas? I mean, the No, no, no, hold

Malcolm Collins: on, hold on. What I'm questioning here is, is the reason that climbing Everest is immoral because Sherpas die doing it. I think that's a minor reason, not the primary reason. And I'll get into the argument here, okay? Okay, okay. First, the ratio of Sherpas to clients has increased significantly.

In the early 1990s, the ratio was one Sherpa to every five clients. Today, it's common to have two Sherpas per client, and in another statistic, I heard 1. 62 Sherpas per client. So what you're seeing here is the number of Sherpas has exploded And per client, because it's just so easy to do it now, because they just have these huge, like, teams around some individuals who are doing it.

So somebody telling you, I claimed Everest, doesn't really mean anything anymore. You know, you've got the diploma mill of Everest now. [00:23:00] But as for the Sherpas themselves, and here is the argument that, okay, but this is really bad. You are needlessly risking people's lives. Sherpas. Had 4, 053 deaths per 100, 000 full time workers.

Avalanches are the primary cause of Sherpa deaths for 46. 4%. So around half the Sherpas that die, there's just nothing you can really do to avoid avalanches if you're climbing Everest. It's not like they messed up or something. It's just a statistical risk. I

Simone Collins: guess not disproportionately. An avalanche takes out everyone in its path.

It's not because they're carrying stuff.

Malcolm Collins: If you're talking about 4, 000 Sherpa deaths for 100, 000 workers. How did that compare to other high risk professions? U. S. soldiers in Iraq, 335 deaths per 100, 000 workers. For Alaskan bush pilots, another one of the most dangerous jobs out there, 287 deaths.

Commercial fishermen, 124 deaths. Minors, 25 deaths per [00:24:00] 100, 000. Sherpas are an astronomically more dangerous profession than like compared to anything else. You're talking about for active U. S. soldiers in an active war zone. It's 335 versus 4, 053 for Sherpas.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's really bad. This is

Malcolm Collins: many multiples more dangerous than being in an active war zone for these individuals.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. I didn't realize it was bad. I mean, I get why they do it because you can make so much more working on Everest than doing pretty much light and just by such an order of magnitude than anything else in the area. It's really tempting, but that's yeah. God, what a hazard. That's terrible. Yeah, no, but then you're gonna die.

It's not good.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, why do I hate this argument? Right? Okay so [00:25:00] the obvious counter argument to this is Yeah And the sherpas know this and it's the best economic opportunity in the region that they have access to By a long shot families and give them a good life And people are like, well, it shouldn't be the best economic opportunity that they have access to in the region.

I haven't seen a single person making this argument attempting to improve the economy. I know, but it is. Like, what do you want to do? But it is. But it is. It's 7 percent of the country's GDP. You can't knock out at 7 percent of the country's GDP industry and expect things to be fine for the people. When you're dealing with the level of poverty that these people live in, that's children starving to death.

That's still people dying. You can't say, well, hypothetically it would be nice if it wasn't. The only way they had to make money, but it is the only way they have to make money and it's actually getting better for them over time. The sherpas have noted that the [00:26:00] amount that they make per year has gone up dramatically over time.

Especially recently. With the extra commercialization of the field and the number of Sherpas being used has gone up. So that means the number of people making money on this has gone up. And then you can say, okay, okay, okay. Well, they can't be earning that much compared to the local populace, right?

Like, why is this so interesting to them? The average annual earnings for a Sherpa. Are 4, 000 to 10, 000 and keep in mind. They're only working during climbing season. anyone here who's thinking,

Simone Collins: all right, what would you need to pay me to deal with some entitled a*****e probably or if not entitled a*****e, at least entitled, you know, person who's willing to, you know, an Everest person and risk my life and how many climbs is a Sherpa doing, you know, probably three climbs a season, I would imagine.

I don't

Malcolm Collins: know, I'd have to look this up. Maybe just

Simone Collins: one. But even, even just one client, [00:27:00] how much would you need to be paid? To put your life on the line for that.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, but this is a problem. They are thinking like privileged, you know, people who live in a developed country Yeah, where they don't have to worry about genuine scarcity And so they don't understand what they're suggesting when they're suggesting taking away these people's source of income Yeah, so the point I was making is now For per year, Sherpas are making 10, 000.

This is a huge bump up from what it used to be. It used to be around 4, 000 to 5, 000. So it's, it's rising, which is great for them. Now you could say, well, what's the average monthly salary in Nepal, right? To put this in context, it's 230 to 270.

That's, that's why they're doing this. And that's average, you know, half of the people are making less than that or might not be mean But you know what? I mean, right like um, and I also note here that the minimum wage in nepal Which is what a lot [00:28:00] which is the alternative for a lot of sherpas Because a lot of the sherpas are not people with high skill sets.

They're acting like well Why don't they have coding backups? Well, they're the group of people who would otherwise be earning minimum wage The average minimum wage in Nepal not the average, the minimum wage in Nepal is 115 per month. That's the alternative for these people, for a lot of them. And then you can be like, okay, well, what about like top earning professions in Nepal, right?

A software engineer in Nepal is making 7, 000 per year to 14, 000 per year. Consider this in contrast with a Sherpa is 4, 000 to 10, 000. So they're earning in the. Range for a non skilled profession of the highest earners in their country. Okay, that's that's that's to me. Insane that you would say, oh, people aren't going to on the [00:29:00] net suffer if we remove this earning opportunity from

Simone Collins: also, we just we need to build an escalator and a slide.

All right, let's build an escalator and a slide. Let's just fully commercialize it.

Malcolm Collins: Change it. Okay. So what we need to do is we bring people to Everest. We're like, okay, now you're entering the Everest secret society. You get to base camp. We are going to use AI imaging to create an image of you at the summit.

Nobody actually goes up anymore. You take all the money that you would have spent on all of this useless stuff. We'll give it to Sherpa's families and other poor people in Nepal and Sherpas who died because they don't get that much in their insurance packages. Yeah. And, and we'll send you home and you can brag to everyone.

Or like,

Simone Collins: yeah, set up a luxury hotel in Nepal. That's just for the secret society. We're like, Hey, for the month or so that you'd be climbing Everest. You know, do you really want to do that? Or do you want to just party with a bunch of other wealthy people? For four weeks in this, [00:30:00]

Malcolm Collins: we can cover up all the lines.

We can cover up all the dump. We can cover up all the bodies. You don't have to worry about any of that anymore. Because, because it simulated Everest, everything's a dokey and you're actually contributing a benefit and that benefit to society because your money is actually going to making the world a better place.

I feel like.

Simone Collins: Maybe Nepal could pull it off, especially if No, here's the great thing is no, no, no, no. So like, what if one of the outfits also like one, an extra expensive package is tragic death on Everest and, and Nepal, like the government's in on it, they'll issue the death certificate. Like, yeah, we wanna fake

Malcolm Collins: their desk, tragic desk, whatever.

Yes.

Simone Collins: Because you still, like, no one would believe it if there was a secret Everest Cabal, but like, suddenly the survival rate's 100%. Mm, suspicious. No one believes it anymore. So, some people go and they never come back. Tragic death. Oh no, this is a big problem. Oh my gosh, so tragic. We need to stop this. Yes, they're

Malcolm Collins: still like wealthy [00:31:00] divorce lawyers.

So it's like, okay, you need to disappear.

Simone Collins: It's how just, yeah, it becomes a new tragic boating accident. And, you know, it's, it's, it's a very posh way to die, obviously, you know, dying never is so sad, so sad. And then of course, but all their, all their holdings were in crypto and their wallet was on them on the mountain.

Fell on a crevice, don't know where it went. Oh, tragic. Fell on a crevice? Yeah, fell on a crevice. All that, all that crypto gone forever. So sad. I don't know that that's the, that's the real dream, I guess, is and because these are all such insecure people who have to be able to say, I summited Everest.

They, you know, would

Malcolm Collins: Steal me on the other side of this for me, Simone. Okay, okay, okay. What net good is gonna come out, like, to the people who are like, no, I actually, like, climbing Everest is a good thing for, like, and when I say a good thing for my personal development, it needs to be a differentially good thing.

A good thing that you could not have achieved by something of equal cost and [00:32:00] risk to life, like, with less cost and less risk to other people's lives.

Thoughts.

Simone Collins: Okay. So, so I wait, I really, really want to climb Everest and I'm talking to you and you're saying, why are you doing this? It seems

Malcolm Collins: completely selfish,

Simone Collins: completely selfish. And well, I'm saying, well, one, like this is the economy of Nepal. I am supporting it. To

Malcolm Collins: what I say, then just give the money directly to them all.

Don't make it risk their lives for you.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I, I guess, gosh, this is, this is difficult. Okay, I don't care about Nepal. Screw, screw Nepal. Screw the Nepalese people. Screw their traditions around Everest being sacred, whatever they are. I don't know about them because I don't care because I'm not culturally sensitive, etc. I just want to be the best and I want to climb [00:33:00] the hardest mountain, although I think K2 is harder.

Yeah, but

Malcolm Collins: this is the thing, right? Like, you're like, first, it's not the hardest mountain, two it's, it's just the highest status mountain, which again is part of the problem here. And again, you're like, okay, I want to be the best. Why do you need to be the best in this totally pointless way that society respects, but like reality doesn't respect the fact that you were standing on some arbitrary peak?

And again, there are other ways you can be the very best without trashing the environment, wasting money and sacrificing other humans lives.

Speaker 21: It's gonna be the very best, to catch them is my real test,

Simone Collins: yeah, when also a lot of society really doesn't respect. I think, you know, Everest has become one of those things that people now see is quite douchey. So I also don't really understand why a lot of people. I think a lot of [00:34:00] people in their childhoods, like younger now, I do think in the future, the, the Everest market will crash because we've reached a point at which the vast majority of the coverage of Everest is So, Like, oh, so many people die on it.

It's, it's sort of a grotesque interest in death or just should in front of people loving on how annoyingly long the lines are. And, you know, the vast majority of the pictures of the summit of Mount Everest is this massive, massive line of people. So I think the market will crash. I can't steel man it because I, I really can't,

Malcolm Collins: you know, the woman who died that

Simone Collins: I mentioned at the beginning of this.

Her whole thing was just this sort of very narrowly cited, like, I, I'm just going to do it. Like she was the kind of person, like she ran for office in Canada. She just did a bunch of things in her life was always like, nothing's going to get in my way. Like you say, I can't do it. I'm going to do it.

And I think that's a lot of the people who go out there, it's [00:35:00] very much that sort of spoiled toddler syndrome of. Like they, they just stubbornly insist that they can and must do it. And then because it is tedious and difficult to do it, I think it can motivate a very specific type of person.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I see them as spoiled toddlers.

Well, I see them as worse than that. Like to me, I see somebody and I've mentioned this in another episode saying, I claimed Everest is like having a swastika tattooed on your forehead. I'm like, Oh, I know you're a garbage human being. Thank you for communicating that to me.

Speaker 9: You're an emotional f*****g cripple.

Your soul is dog s**t. Every single f*****g thing about you is ugly.

Malcolm Collins: But it's not the only category of recreation I see is like that.

Like. If I knew that playing video games, like my preferred form of recreation, like, randomly killed somebody, like, one in ten times I hit a specific key or something like that, or one in a hundred times I hit a specific key, I'd be like, yeah, I should stop doing this, like, I might like video games or randomly killed me I'd be like, yeah, I should [00:36:00] stop I should, or I should at least not be bragging about it but Everest isn't the only category of this, you know, whether you're talking about free climbing, for example, the other category of this.

Free climbing

Simone Collins: really freaks you out.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I don't like it. Another one, well, it's interesting, this doesn't freak me out as much, is dangerous style spelunking. Like, Oh, that freaks,

Simone Collins: I can't handle. Mm mm. No. I've listened to

Malcolm Collins: so many stories about people who have died in this. It's always, like, the dumbest thing.

Why did you crawl into a tunnel if you didn't know you're going to be able to crawl back out that tunnel? I like it. It's like well, you you're putting your life in other people's like do you have nothing Of to offer the world like you can't even like sit down and try to make yourself somebody who could offer the world something

It's like, you go up to someone and you're like, Hey. You've been gifted this one life to try to make it count, to try to do something good for the world. And then they're like, you know what? I think I'd rather shove myself in a hole and you're like, whoa. Excuse me. You'd rather do what. Yeah, I'm going to go. , in the desert and shoved my head in a hole and you're [00:37:00] like, what? Why would you do that? I don't know.

I like it. It makes me feel good. Gets me off.

That's the crazy thing. That's a crazy thing.

or Dangerous types of cave diving where it's like look I don't mind if you spelunk in like a big cave just explore it and enjoy it.

But there is a point Where whether it's mountain climbing or cave diving or anything like that, where there is a form of it that is fun and recreational, where the risk to other people or yourself is marginal point where the only reason for what you are doing anymore is to increase the risk.

Simone Collins: Well, and part of this, it may be, it reminds me as you're giving me these examples, it reminds me of. Sexual arousal pathways gone wrong, how, you know, obviously it's, humans have evolved to have instincts that make them interested in things associated with sex because humans who are not at all interested in those don't tend to reproduce at really good rates.

So then they don't really inherit the future. And so there's not a [00:38:00] whole lot of us who aren't really into that. But then, you know, there are some people who then have really weird arousal pathways with regard to certain things and they take it too far and they die, like through specific Expeciation or through other things, you know, shoving stuff up their butts and they really shouldn't because that's not really reproductive.

And I think that humans also have, and this is a really, really good trait that has built civilization that has created inventions and amazing things for pushing limits and exploring. And, you know, pushing themselves as far as they can go. You know, wanting to prove things to yourself. And that is a good thing.

It's just, these people are the equivalent, in terms of that, like, super stimuli, as the person who ends up choking themselves for arousal, or, you know, doing a bunch of other things.

Malcolm Collins: The people who die on Everest. Are the moral equivalent of the person who dies because they put a light bulb up their butt to get off Yeah, or a gerbil up their butt to get off.

Speaker 22: It's called autoerotic asphyxiation this is my problem with it. The risk reward. [00:39:00] It's not good. And I know the reward because I read about it. Like, apparently, by cutting off the oxygen or something like that, you increase your orgasm until it's one and a half times as powerful.

That's the one you had the Thursday before last. But is that really that important? I mean, we have a lot of things in this country. It's, you know, it's raining in the forest. There's all kinds of s**t we have to think about, let alone whacking off. That's our big problem. But the risk, good lord.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it's just

Simone Collins: they take it too far Like it's there's there's a place for that and you've taken it too far

Malcolm Collins: Well, no But you knew like the guy who put the light bulb up his butt knew there was a risk and putting a light But it really turned him on, you know, the guy who put the gerbil up his butt. He knew it was a risk it created a positive emotional state for him and he's like this is more important to me You [00:40:00] Then the risks that this is incurring or the pain that this is incurring others in the case of the gerbil

Speaker 23: Okay, now, Butters, could you bring over Lemmy Winks for me, please? S**t! Oh, no. No, no, no, no. Newton

Malcolm Collins: you know, I, I think this is when we begin to as a society framing the people who indulgently spend the one lives that they are gifted in these really, really selfish ways. As the same as the type of person who ends up in a hospital with a light bulb up their butt then we can lower the people who are doing this performatively.

Cause a lot of people are just doing this performatively. And yeah, there's gonna be some like You know, small portion of the population that just can't stop themselves from climbing dangerous mountains are going into dangerous holes are putting gerbils up their butt. But you know, that is that is where we can be like, okay, well, you know, you at least understand that everyone sees you as the guy who died putting a gerbil up his butt.

But [00:41:00] yeah.

Simone Collins: Yep. Everest. Garbage. In every respect. Can't understand it. But what is wild is that, while I don't personally know anyone who's climbed Mount Everest, we do know, I think we've encountered multiple people, not just your dad, who've climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. So people are still doing this to a lesser extent.

Malcolm Collins: No, I said Everest is the type of thing he would have done if the opportunity had come up at the right age.

And I will say, I respect my dad. I like my dad, but this is one area where like his moral structure is just very juvenile. But it's because he's a first generation American. Like, we'll, we'll have a separate video on this, which is like, why are first generation atheists so likely to have athetic value systems, hedonistic values?

I was actually,

Simone Collins: I was going to say, it seems like the, there was a rise in this kind of behavior as religion. [00:42:00] A little bit, I think,

Malcolm Collins: because it's not that religion didn't have pointless ways. You could challenge yourself, but the pointless ways you could challenge yourself in religion. We're usually meant to lower negative.

Externalities

Simone Collins: are broadly pro social. We could say.

Malcolm Collins: No, or anti social, they'd say, go cloister yourself in a room and don't talk to anyone for 30 years. Like, that's a very difficult thing to do.

Simone Collins: Hey, you know what? No, it is broadly pro social because it takes the crazy a******s and removes them from society.

Come on.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we got to tell everyone in Everest. Hey, hey, the new thing is, can you get off social media for 20 years? Go for it! Go for it! It's so hard! The challenge,

Simone Collins: the real, yes, that's how you really know.

Malcolm Collins: Thoughts? Like, I, I, I like that. I think that's what we need to be pushing. Um, the, the new but no, I think that all of this is sort of downstream of the first generation didn't really have any sort of [00:43:00] a meaningful alternative to it. Well,

Simone Collins: and they didn't have, they didn't have some other way to find meaning or achievement in life.

And yeah, I mean, like other religions give you sacraments, like you can join religious service or you could have a family and like you. are really maxing it out by doing that. And, and if you want to get intense, have 10 kids. If you want to get intense, become a nun, you know, there are things you can do. And the problem I think with, with broadly society is the way now that you max it out is by spending a lot of money or doing dumb s**t, like climbing Mount Everest.

Malcolm Collins: They coded value, moral value to their self perception and society's perception of themselves, rather than any sort of objective or well thought through value system.

Simone Collins: Well, and I, you know, I would argue that a lot of people did things like join religious service, or, have a lot of kids or do things like that.

To signal, but at least it, it [00:44:00] harnesses that desire to front and harnesses it for good. Like people who just gave a lot of money, like, think about what wealthy families used to do. They used to like the Carnegie's like they, they gave so much, you know, all the libraries and the theaters and like all these other things.

And then before they think about what the Medici's did, like they built and there's all art they commissioned and like they sort of gave things to society and get a fountain in your town or something, you know, and now it's, it's not being spent on something everyone can do. I think a lot of that too is, is driven even by weirdly anti capitalist sentiment.

In the, like in the past. You could become a wealthy benefactor and give to society and be celebrated for it. And now like the Chan Zuckerberg initiative wants to like end human disease and people like, Oh, screw you. And maybe that's another issue too, is now because it's not cool to be a patron, you can't even like, you can't flaunt your wealth in a [00:45:00] way.

That benefits society because society will hate you for it. And so instead, they're spending it on still like doing things like climbing Mount Everest. And that's killing Sherpas, and that's killing other like people.

Malcolm Collins: Here's another great example, like the billionaires who all died in that submarine trying to see the Titanic.

Simone Collins: Right, well, because they couldn't. They couldn't possibly like found a library because then people would be like a rich person. I mean, they still made fun of them, but if they'd done something more public facing, it was meant to benefit other people. They would have been criticized for it. And that is, yeah, I don't know.

I'm just, I'm just starting to think about this more.

Malcolm Collins: Well, we have now wealthy people are

Simone Collins: demonized for trying to do good for trying to give to society.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And I think that if we look at the people who are trying to live our value system, right, like the billionaires this is one of the reasons why we, even though like there might be reasons to criticize Elon Musk, he's clearly trying to get us off planet, which is like our core goal.[00:46:00]

for pronatalism in a way that hurts his ability to make money and stuff like that. He's trying to like, you really need to cut billionaires some slack if they are broadly trying to do things in alignment with your value system. Oh, he's,

Simone Collins: he's trying to set up self driving cars to drive people around cities.

He's, he's trying to set up like

Malcolm Collins: dramatically lower the number of deaths.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And people are like, Oh, can you believe this? Billionaire months. I just it's so annoying. But yeah, I think that's that's another issue though is if you show that you if you use your wealth to try to help society, you're going to be Not only not praised, but actively criticized.

You're going to start to do stupid indulgent stuff like climb Mount Everest

Malcolm Collins: or just like the bottom of invest endlessly

Simone Collins: on, like, go to, like on all these ayahuasca trips and just look inward and then spend all your money on mental health and like,

Malcolm Collins: the only way this is averted is through social shaming and through, through realigning a society's [00:47:00] perception of individuals who put themselves at these sorts of pointless risks as.

The guy who died sticking a lightbulb up

Simone Collins: and rewarding people who use their resources to give back because right now we just punish them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we just punish them. We just punish them. And it's worse than just punishing them when we praise them. People attempt to punish us.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. So it's very serious.

I was just listening to an interview. On the honestly podcast with Mark Andreessen between Barry Weiss and Mark Andreessen and Mark Andreessen was talking about this. He was like, there used to be this sort of social contract in America where if you worked hard and built a company and made a lot of money, then you'd get to go to all the fancy parties and you donate money and people would celebrate you and it'd be fun.

You know, like that would be like a good motivator. And now people are doing that and they're trying to give back. Bill Gates tries to give back. Jen Zuckerberg tries to give back. Elon Musk tries to give back. And Elon Musk gets like attacked by the U. S. government and [00:48:00] society and Mark Zuckerberg gets attacked by the government and society.

Like, they get hated. You know, people have all these conspiracy theories about Bill Gates and he's a monster. So the social contract has

Malcolm Collins: Oh! I have a call

Simone Collins: with Abigail Schreier. I'm sorry, I have to end the call. You can end. I'm sorry. I love you too. Bye.

Speaker 25: Mountains high but hearts are small Chasing glory, watch them fall Waiting lines and freezing nights Dollar bills and blinding lights Footsteps

Speaker 26: echo empty fame Rescuers call out your name Risk their lives for hollow gain Frostbite thoughts and [00:49:00] freezing pain Climbing To nowhere, while the world is crying, we ain't there.

Dollar signs in hollow air, risking lives for glory's glare. A

Speaker 25: valley hear the cries, hungry hands and angel eyes. Thousands could be fed and warm, yet we climb into the storm. Is it worth it?

Speaker 26: Look

Speaker 25: around,

Speaker 26: we're in a mountain shroud. This pressure's not a game. Chasing peaks is just insane. Climbing Everest to nowhere. While the world is crying, we ain't there. Dollar signs in hollow air.[00:50:00]

Risking lives for glory's clear.

Everest to nowhere. While the world is crying. We ain't there. Dollar signs in hollow air. Risking lives for glory's glare. Climbing Everest to nowhere. While the world is crying. We ain't there. Dollars

for glory's glare. Glory's

[00:51:00] glare.

In this episode, Simone and Malcolm delve into the shocking new statistics regarding youth mental health. They challenge the common belief that social media is to blame for the decline, suggesting that a lack of hardship, discipline, and boundaries plays a more significant role. With numerous anecdotes and studies, they discuss the impact of 'gentle parenting' and how these practices may be contributing to an increase in anxiety, depression, and school absenteeism among kids. The conversation spans various topics including the unintended consequences of the COVID-19 lockdowns, the rise of therapy dependence, and potential cultural shifts among Gen Z. They also explore historical parenting practices and the importance of religious communities in providing support to modern families.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today's episode is going to be an interesting topic, or we are going to be going over new statistics on just how bad mental health is for the youth of this coming generation. It is worse than even the previous statistics may have indicated.

What is likely causing it? I think a lot of people blame it on social media.

Simone Collins: Oh, the phones. I'm

Malcolm Collins: so done with

Simone Collins: that.

Malcolm Collins: Enough. The stats just don't agree with this. And even, it's not even an issue of the stats. I can look to my generation and look at who was the early adopters of intense social media usage.

Like myself and my friend group. And they actually had much higher mental health outcomes than the groups that were not using social media. So what we should not have seen is the individuals who were most using social media first with, , better mental health. than the individuals who abstain from it in the early days.

I think that this is downstream of something [00:01:00] entirely different, specifically the lack of hardship, discipline, and boundaries that we are giving to young people. And the stats we're going to go over that are, are shocking. To, just to give you an example of like two that we're going to go over, 78 percent of parents in 2024 are practicing gentle parenting.

That's 78 percent by one study, 74 percent by a different study. That is terrifying. If it's as bad as I suspect it is. Are you going to share that clip

Simone Collins: that you shared with me on WhatsApp last night? Cause that was terrifying.

Malcolm Collins: She could be the next president.

Yeah. I think some people may assume when they hear me telling stories about how, when I lightly discipline a child in public, like even scolding them, I get accosted by people. And in this video, I think I'm pretty vindicated. You can see that any sane person would think this kid needs to be disciplined. But when people try to just restrain the child, other people are threatening to call the cops on them.

And then in a different instance, yelling, you don't know [00:02:00] what she's been through

Speaker 7: To go. Ooh. Ooh.

Oh s**t. Don't y'all do that to a little girl. Y'all don't know what she's going through. Hey, ,

Speaker 2: Damn it, I hate you! You're ruining my life! Please Herbert, [00:03:00] remember our agreement! We have an agreement about how we behave in a store, Herbert! Give me

Speaker 5: stop. Have you ever tried beating his ass? The belt.

Speaker 6: Faithful! You must have lost your gut!

Malcolm Collins: Oh my God. The little girl who's like storming the store and like, they want like my kids doing that.

And I like disciplined them and everyone's like, how could you?

Simone Collins: Yeah, no, that's the crazy thing is I feel like you have caught more open animosity and public criticism for punishing our Children's bad behavior. There was orders of magnitude lower than that, but still bad, still openly bad and annoying than that girl's parents.

We're getting in that moment in Walmart as she was literally throwing bottles of sparkling beverage onto the ground and having the glass shatter and having liquid go everywhere. This

Malcolm Collins: was, yeah, her parents were getting less of a public freakout than I get for not even, [00:04:00]

Simone Collins: yeah, not even, you know, just being like, no, we're leaving now.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, these parents want their kids to not experience anger at all. I'm realizing you have to end the cycle of abuse. How? Yeah, they were like in the cycle. And I was like, how, how is that gonna help the kids? I love it when they're like, you know, if you don't do this with your kids, they won't do it with theirs.

Do you really want them to act this way towards their kids? I was like, Yes, obviously, please go.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like do, do I think that an evolved emotion, anger is supposed to communicate to other people that kids are not supposed to see that, that that's going to like be, but let's go to what, what happened from this because it was a secondary phenomenon that layered on top of this, which created Hikikomoros.

And this secondary phenomenon was what happened during covid the completely unjust and horrifying school closures that individuals lost their jobs and careers campaigning against like the lady who was next in line to be CEO of Levi's And they [00:05:00] canned her because she said this is disproportionately hurting poor children.

By the way, all the stats say she was right. But She clearly

Simone Collins: was. Everyone knows she was right.

Malcolm Collins: Everyone knows she

Simone Collins: was

Malcolm Collins: right. The virus, the Cordyceps virus, the urban monoculture is horrifying. It does not care about the damage it causes. But I want to read some quotes from an article that I thought was really interesting called Ghost Children, The Pupils Who Never Came Back After Lockdown, and this is from The Spectator.

Because after lockdown happened, there was this presumption that, like, we open up again and everyone comes back. And it just didn't happen. Like a huge chunk of the population just didn't come back.

And we'll go over the stats on this. But here are some anecdotal quotes from what's going on in the school system right now, from the perspective of people was in it.

A school counselor told me that countless kids sent to him for help fall into two groups. Either they are so crippled by anxiety or depression that they cannot leave the house, or they are angry and bitter, out on the [00:06:00] streets and into crime and gangs. One 14 year old girl told me, I just sit in my room.

It's an awful feeling, like really scary and lonely. A 16 year old boy I met on street street ham street hoodie pulled up over his Afro said. I'm upset I lost so much learning. I'm stressed. I don't get the grades I need for college. In the last full school term, the autumn of 2019, shortly before the start of the pandemic, just 60, 202 pupils were defined as severely absent.

That is spending more time out of classrooms than in them. Since then, despite schools opening, this number has shot up. Now over 140, 000. It went from 60, 000 to 140, 000, more than doubling. Children are classified as severely absent, according to the analysis of official figures by the CSJ. That's a 134 percent the increase of closing down 140 schools.

Despite recent efforts, The [00:07:00] numbers are continuing to surge. Children are turning their backs on education at an alarming pace warms the CSJ and here I will put a graph on screen of the number of kids who aren't coming back to schools. What is interesting is that a lot of people want to blame this just on covid.

But if you actually were to graph this, you can see the logarithmic increase beginning in 2017 and really going up in 2019 long before covid.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: The, , gentle parenting book. It came out in 2016. So just consider that alongside this graph.

Malcolm Collins: But it's not just the usual suspects ghost children also exist among the high achieving middle classes One teacher in a london suburb at an all girls school rated quote unquote outstanding by aust fed Told me the mental health issues among my girls.

It's a pandemic in itself A third of my pupils only turn up intermittently. This is at an expensive all girls private school A third of the students are only turning up intermittently 30 girls have actually gone missing.

Simone Collins: How can parents [00:08:00] tolerate this? I mean, it's one thing I get, like, if it's public school, and you're not really into it, and your kid's not thriving there.

We'll get to

Malcolm Collins: what the parents are saying

Simone Collins: in just

Malcolm Collins: a second. Before the pandemic, the school expected many of these girls to go to university and enjoy a career. But lockdown, the teacher said, totally derailed their plans. Their parents would say their characters have changed. They are a different person now.

The pandemic has diminished their life chances. And here I note again, you see this trend before the lockdown. I think this is more downstream of gentle parenting than just COVID. I think it's a cumulation of COVID and gentle parenting and the real mimetic viruses that are sweeping through this generation.

And I think parents just don't understand what it's like to have mental viruses that are this overwhelming, this fascist in the way they impose themselves. I mean, it used to be the kids were scared because they go to school that had like these Judeo Christian value systems that they felt they didn't measure up to or they felt judged them.

[00:09:00] And they saw this as a horror. The problem is is now they go to schools and those schools are controlled by like three extremely aggressive cults that are like sending your kids to a school controlled by Scientologists when we were kids. I don't know

Simone Collins: Scientologist kids. Seemed to go to really cool private schools.

I'm just saying there was that one Scientology school that looked like a castle and no, these

Malcolm Collins: places are pretty horrifying. But I, I, if you, if you look at the stats on them, the, the, the point that I'm making is that the urban monoculture is so much more totalitarian and fascist in how it implements its value system than the Christians ever were when they were the culturally dominant faction and the horror that the kids go through growing up in a country that really is a dystopian A fascist state run by a cult is horrifying, especially if they don't have support back home and they do not and and support what support looks like is austerity and discipline.

It's not I love you and I support whatever you're doing, and we'll get to why that causes a lot of these [00:10:00] problems.

No to anyone here who wants to be like, oh, but the studies show gentle parenting works. I would one ask you to just exercise common sense, and to point out the other video we made the scientists lied about spanking, which goes into the coverup of. A bunch of studies where they basically fake the data in the eighties by not doing matching results to make it look like , spanking was causing negative effects on children.

When we now know that it doesn't in the large mega studies that have been done recently. Like the paper in 2023. , parental punishment. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. So for anyone who's like, oh, look at the studies. I'm like, oh, look at common sense. .

If you were reward negative behavior with attention, you are going to get more negative behavior and hypertensive type kids to negative stimuli.

Here or just look at like basic anecdotal evidence. So here is a piece that somebody wrote. , in the collegian. And I'll quote from it. When I nannied for millennial parents who raised their kids with quote unquote gentle parenting philosophy. I saw [00:11:00] disastrous results. This family was entirely based on communication.

This meant for every negative or positive emotion, one of the kids had, I would walk through it wisdom. I became the emotional regulator for three children under age eight, rather than administering consequences for bad behavior. I found myself trying to reason with a three-year-old having a tantrum after reminding him that throwing blocks at his sister was not kind.

Now to keep going, her school is not alone. Absence is now a feature of school life. Just under two million pupils, one in four of all school children are classified as persistently absent, i.

e. have an attendance rate of less than 90%. So one in our attending school, less than one out of 10 days um, double pre pandemic levels. The teacher explained that one single mother has had to give up her job to Concentrate full time on coaxing her daughter back into school despite the fact she is the breadwinner So it means real financial hardship.

Wait, so the mom who was the breadwinner of the family quit her [00:12:00] job I guess the dad's not in the picture it sounds like a dad or boyfriend is in the picture and the mom was supporting them to try to Because the male wasn't doing anything to try to force her kid back into school. Do and you'll you just force

Simone Collins: Why don't you drop them off and you're like good luck?

Malcolm Collins: Well, we'll talk about why the kids aren't doing this and what it's like to be around these kids because they they're really afraid Of any sort of like negative stimuli. Even though bullying rates have not increased bullying rates are still at around 20 percent and you know what we really need here is the clip from futurama.

Most, perhaps all, the blame rests with the parents. Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?

Malcolm Collins: Because I know this mom hasn't considered that if your home is not like, if my kid knows, oh yeah, I don't go home during the day because I'm going to get my butt whooped they'll understand the situation. They're like, ah, yeah, school is preferable.

Now that said, we actually plan to homeschool our kids and I am [00:13:00] concerned by how much my kid is enjoying school. Because

Simone Collins: we're never going to, force our kids into homeschool. They want to do kindergarten. They get to do kindergarten or they get to do public school or whatever. I

Malcolm Collins: always want public school to be the punishment by that.

What I mean is if they're falling behind in their homeschooling, it's public school, not a, I took you out of public school so I could homeschool you.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, and public school is not considered their education. It's considered an extracurricular. So, like, it's, it's like going to soccer camp. We wouldn't consider soccer camp your source of math education ever.

Just like, we wouldn't consider public school, your source of math or any education. So,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. All right. One girl told me her geography tutor had been really helpful, but that she had barely heard from the English staff at all. A boy described the impact of school indifference on his mood. The teachers didn't mark the work I had completed.

Not once, he says. With no feedback, this clever and competitive boy lost motivation. Confined to his room, he started to listen to rap [00:14:00] music, which fueled his frustration and rage. When school reopened, it was only the intervention of his parents and months of counseling. that turned him around. I was scared.

I had lost myself forever and become a different version of myself. They're just losing. They're losing hope. The viruses, the memetic viruses that are spreading that the cult is pushing on them thrive by breaking their connection to their families. But the families themselves aren't providing the environment that they need.

They're not providing the discipline they need. They're not because that's what's needed to relate to. to the harsh world we live in. These kids act like it's like the hardest time in history. And I'm like, go read about what it was like being a kid during like the yellow fever epidemic or like scarlet fever or like any of the past of the great depression in the United States.

You live an unimaginably cushy life. Your friends aren't like dying in their sleep. Most young people, they haven't even seen a dead body like, and that would have been normal before. And it is [00:15:00] horrifying to me. The cocoon has created a hypersensitivity around negative stimuli for these Children.

And it is really, and we'll go into this more, but, you know, we talk about all the times that, like, we go viral for punishing our kids to any extent and they're very light punishments that we've gone viral for, like, we do not, like, heavily punish our kids or anything like that, I think that that's, like, totally unnecessary, the pain should never be the point of a punishment, it should be The disapproval and a way to show that they did something wrong without necessarily emotionally escalating.

And this is unfortunately when I had to punish the kid when they're like, oh, you got angry at him. That was because I was afraid to hit the kid in front of other parents. Because I was like s**t i'm gonna so I have to get angry with him because emotional escalation was the only way to show Him he had messed up if it was at home.

I wouldn't have gotten angry at him. I just would have been like Bop. Okay, like, let's talk about this. Like, what did you do wrong? What are you not going to do in the future without emotionally escalating the situation that's forced you in that environment?

I [00:16:00] should note here. They're the big difference between kids and not all kids need corporal punishment to be the way that they are disciplined. However, all children do need some form of discipline. Something in their life that when they step over a boundary, isn't somebody calmly sitting down next to them and talking it through them.

But some sort of negative feedback, some sort of anger or,

Genuine disapproval and exclusion because if they don't. Learn how to deal with that. As a kid, they will not be able to deal with it in high school or in their adult lives. And they turn into these Hikikomori, which we're seeing an entire generation turn into. It is infinitely more abusive to your child to not ever expose them to negative stimuli, then even to expose them to fairly over the top negative stimuli.

I think, Simone, what you're missing here is as soon as a kid is allowed to hypersensitize to negative emotional stimuli, they can't be around [00:17:00] them at all. And so you can go home and say like, Hey, you know, two months of counseling to get him back to school. Hey, you know, you should go back to school.

You should, but if they're already hypersensitized to anyone disapproving of them, to anyone being angry at them, how are they going to survive in a school environment? Right? I

Simone Collins: think the more the way I see it in the way I've seen so many things like this and experienced it too, is. Everything is a muscle.

And so if you allow someone's social muscles, leaving the house muscles, dealing with adversity, muscles to atrophy, to the extent that our modern society and parenting norms allow them to atrophy, you're going to end up with severely kind of like those children, those feral children who grew up and never learned how to speak.

And then finally they get rescued and people try to give them language and they can't like, they never really develop language skills. I think that's happening. With some forms of resilience and inhibitory control now, I think we're seeing the, [00:18:00] the, the equivalent in terms of mental fortitude of different types and ability to focus and all these other things of feral children in a whole generation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and I think that parents when they're thinking about, like, what am I attempting to do? Like, when we look at parenting, I used to be like, everyone should parent in their own way. I am now no longer, like, no one should be gentle parenting. I just think it's a bad philosophy. I, I think that parenting without discipline, I is obviously going to be incredibly hurtful to the kids and your goal as a parent is to stoke the fire of the child's will as much as possible.

Their ambition there. And that's what these children don't have. The fire that lights their insides isn't there. Yeah, that, that is an interesting

Simone Collins: thing that accompanies the avoidance. And the fear is also this intense ennui, where ennui is not a good enough word. It's lying flat's better, you know, but that just zero drive or interest, [00:19:00] deep depression.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I wouldn't even say it's depression because depression rates are not that much higher. We'll get to this in a second. A lot of other mental health issues are, but depression is around 20%, which is what it was historically.

Nope. I was wrong about this depression rate. Shut up a ton the past 10 years. It's just that they were relatively stable until about the past 10 years. , this is specifically in young people.

oh, but what I'm

Simone Collins: insisting with depression here is just that, Lack of drive to do anything even get not

Malcolm Collins: real like clinical depression, but like, but it's it looks different than clinical depression It is on we as a better word for it as you said but the way I would word it best It's a lack of fire and in a recent episode We described the pronatalist movement as cucking society and I think that that's all our goals Not to cuck society in the way that people do.

Even sexually speaking, but I'd say, because as we pointed that episode, everyone was under 2. 1 kids is being cut by the people was over 2. 1 kids because functionally, you're contributing to a future. You're paying taxes to help raise genetic material. That's going to replace you intergenerationally speaking.

But [00:20:00] if you watch kaku chicks it's really like dramatic because they're much larger than even like the parents that are feeding them so like the kaku chicks, you know after they starve all the other little chicks in the nest They'll be like twice the size of the parent that is feeding them. And this is the way I feel that You as a pronatalist need to be raising your kids will to be it needs to be their soul their fire Inside of them.

They need to look like a little cuckoo chick when the the teacher is pathetically trying to feed them when the school system is pathetically attempting to discipline them in their weak weak way where they look weak and pathetic and tawdry next to this big burly will of a child

Speaker 11: Cuckoos are brood parasites that trick smaller birds into raising their chicks. In this video, a larger cuckoo chick is being fed by a smaller foster parent that mistakenly believes it's its own offspring.

Malcolm Collins: [00:21:00] because we have to replace them.

Their weakness leads to immorality. See our episode on weakness and immorality in Friedrich Nietzsche. Because that's what's downstream of allowing this to spread and metastasize. We have to replace them. And that is done through fostering your children's will, not through breaking it. And that's, this is another thing where I'm like, punish your kids, but do not punish them to break their will.

Punish them because you want them acting up in the type of way where they Frequently need to be punished. I think that this is a big difference between us and other parents where other parents punish their kids so that they eventually no longer have to punish them. Where I punish my kids so that I have a unique way of showing them where boundaries are so they can explore breaking boundaries more often while knowing very clearly when they have.

Now to go back to the article, young people moving on to sixth form college are particularly vulnerable. A [00:22:00] teacher in northeast of England says she has noticed the disappearance of a small number of 16 to 17 year olds from lessons. They enrolled in the sixth form in September, but I have never seen them.

She says, parents always give me the same reason for the children's absence. Their mental health is too fragile for them to attend class. Parents are at a loss and teachers are instructed by the authorities to not pursue an absence if it is for mental health reasons. We are told to just leave it be. You hope the services are there in the background, but we all know they aren't.

Speaker 8: Do you consider yourselves to be happy? I don't think I'm very happy. I always fall asleep to the sound of my own screams. Right. See, the reason that you are And then I always get woken up in the morning by the sound of my own screams. Do you think I'm unhappy?

Simone Collins: Oh, boy. Okay. Huh. That's, I did not expect that. No, no, it is

Malcolm Collins: bad. It is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. I'd actually [00:23:00] say, like, as I look more into the mental health stuff, and people would be like, oh, but don't you know the studies say that gentle parenting is good? And I'm like, yeah, and all the studies show that spanking was bad in the 80s, and then when we rerun them without bad fudge data, it turns out that the big meta studies on this, the most recent studies on this, are like, okay, actually, it was good.

Or or non effect and they're not controlling for genetic effects. So of course that means highly good. So the, the, the studies I just don't buy, like if you look at the basic psychology of this, of course, if you shield a child from negative stimuli, they're going to hypersensitize to it.

Simone Collins: Duh.

Malcolm Collins: Is that not what we're seeing?

What I hadn't realized is how big the number of parents were who were doing this, and that it really is explanatory of a lot of what's going on. More so than even the COVID lockdowns, because as you can see, the problem started before the COVID lockdowns. I'll correlate this with when genital parenting got popular as well.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: The, , gentle parenting book. It came out in 2016. So just consider that alongside this graph.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway meanwhile, the CSJ report makes it clear. [00:24:00] Oh, by the way, did you have anything you wanted to say about the, the fragile mental health of kids that they're talking about here?

Simone Collins: Just in contrast, having just finished Hannah's Children, that amazing print idolist book, I am thinking about the resilience and service done to kids who are in larger families because they simply, by existing with so many other siblings, are given responsibility, are given the opportunity to be selfless, are given challenges, are given, you know, First austerity in many cases that makes them resilient and makes them into much better people and all these descriptions in the interviews that take place in this book of teens are of people who absolutely have their moments where they're struggling with depression and go through tough moments because being a teen sucks and everyone goes through that.

I mean, most people do. You're going through a lot of hormonal fluctuations, but that New babies that they suddenly gets a care for and new responsibilities really just help them get over themselves [00:25:00] and it's so sad because it's what's also pointed out in this book. Is it a huge percentage of kids in developed countries, especially in the United States will never be exposed to an infant.

In their lifetime unless they have a kid themselves and, and at best has one sibling which is a very different dynamic. And I feel like I'm starting to realize that many of these issues that are seen now as. Do we go for normal, normal teens today are not, they're, they're more a product of teens growing up in very maladaptive environments that teens for the vast majority of human history have never experienced.

And that's scary.

Malcolm Collins: Meanwhile, as a CSJ report makes clear, the number of ghost children is set to multiply and will continue to do so for many years. So again, it's not just the pandemic that causes this, it's an increasing problem. This [00:26:00] is, they claim that this is due to the disastrous impact on lockdown on babies and young children who are now making their way through the education system.

As one primary school teacher said to me, it breaks my heart looking at the kids in my class. Either they are crippled by anxiety, or they're not. Or jumping off the walls. Basically, they are just not happy.

Simone Collins: Well, it means jumping off the walls, but he's jumping

Malcolm Collins: off the walls. That means you're doing a good job.

And that's, that's another,

Simone Collins: that's the classic issue of school now is, and why boys especially are suffering in school is teachers somehow think it's wrong that they can't sit down for hours. on end at desks. What on earth people?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I agree. This is about stoking their will. As we said, that's your job as a parent.

The head of one primary school explained to me, usually around half of pupils arrive at primary school, not ready to start lessons. After lockdown, this has jumped to more like 80%. Teachers are baffled to find four year olds barely able to say their name and still in nappies.

They are quick to blame the parents. No one [00:27:00] mentioned how the complete absence of statutory services over the pandemic took its toll. Lockdown all but halted early years provisions. Drop in baby and toddler groups stopped. Parks and playgrounds that were closed long after we knew the virus didn't spread outside again, like the mimetic virus worse than the real virus that it just delighted in totalitarian Lee of forcing these, these systems even more extraordinarily health visitors, a vital service.

And lifeline for new parents largely disappeared as did many GPs new mothers were riddled with anxiety Were their babies feeding properly gaining weight and the crushing fear for every new mother. Did their babies have a disability? They had no one to ask as one new mother said I feel very isolated and frightened.

This is my first child I don't know what normal is and I don't know where to find help parenting circle a charity which aims to improve children's school readiness points out that a five year old [00:28:00] who cannot play happily or speak properly is more likely to grow into a nine year old bully than a 13 year old with school attendance issues than a 15 year old who joins a gang and finally a 19 year old behind bars Unless serious remedial steps are taken to bring back the ghost children To stop their numbers growing, that will be their future.

It's a disaster for society and already. And I think basically what we're doing is we're raising a generation of Hikikomori's NEETs in the United States. There's already estimated to be 10 million. That means people who are not in employment education or training.

Simone Collins: Well, and I was just actually right before we hopped on this call talking with.

I won't, I won't name it, but a recruiter that we know who works in, in tech and startup in the UK, and he's talking about how talented grads in the UK, especially because that's like a talented grad coming from Oxford or Cambridge, like a top UK university is looking at a job that pays them. 30k a year.

They're just not taking the jobs. They're just not working because [00:29:00] there's no point. They can't buy a house on that salary. They can't do anything on that salary. So they're just not going to do it. And I think that's another problem that he said he was encountering in the job market when recruiting talent is that a lot of talent just doesn't want to work because Why that they're not going to be able to buy a house, you're not going to be able to buy a car.

They're not going to be able to start a family based on how people live lives now, because the way that our life is run per modern society's standards, which are completely out of whack are dysfunctional and to that point about parents being so isolated and really failing to thrive. I think this also highlights How the, the downfall of communities, especially religious communities that allow high fertility families to not just support each other, but mentor new young families.

Parents with no kids are causing knock on effects and societal downfall. You take away those communities and here now you have these isolated first time mothers who. They have no [00:30:00] idea how to do everything. Everything's so much harder when you are a parent of one child for the first time, the first time is always the hardest with everything, right?

Practice makes perfect. And so you have these parents who grew up isolated from other families who grew up with no guidance on what to do. So they think that everything's really hard because it is really hard for them. They don't have any more kids. And so they've made most of the sacrifices you have to make to become a parent and yet they get none of the rewards of, like, having a big family, none of the payback and nothing gets easier for them because they continue to not have that community to give some perspective and advice and support.

And I love that at the end of Hannah's children, the big piece of advice is. You have to bring back religious sovereignty. You have to allow religious communities to thrive and support each other. And you have to allow religious education to be executed without intervention and with support.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, absolutely.

And another thing you were talking about this morning that I'd love if you go into, before we go into more of the stats is how culture is changing among Gen Z because there is some [00:31:00] hope. You're saying that before the pandemic, that there was this culture of like in the dating scene.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. Yeah. There's this, yeah, there's this Gen Z young lady writing on sub stack who was talking about dating culture. And I think a call her daddy 2018 at dating advice episode that was kind of foundational for Gen Z in terms of these are the tips. And it was like, Cheat or be cheated on and sugar daddies are okay.

And like, just basically go out, be unethical. Dating is war have sex. And then there was sort of this ethical reckoning where I think this is maybe around the pandemic or a little bit after 2018, where the culture did start to shift and people just wouldn't consider being so callous and so. Transactional anymore, even though maybe kind of, they still are, I think that was kind of the argument that you make.

Ultimately, I think

Malcolm Collins: the young generation, from what I've seen, is realizing The way their parents [00:32:00] are living isn't working. And this is what we're seeing. Yes. I think what you're also

Simone Collins: seeing is this in religiosity again.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah. For the first time in American history, you are seeing an increase in conservative voting patterns.

What you are not seeing and what you're wrong. There is a rise in religiosity. This is a completely ephemeral phenomenon that people want to make up. Some religious communities notice some young people who formerly were not religious or not a religious families moving towards religiosity. The problem is, is this.

population is much smaller than the young people raised in religious families that are leaving. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah. That's a fair point. The attrition is much larger than the people who are getting God now.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And so the people who are getting God, people are like, Oh, the, what you actually see in young people, what is actually exploding is an appreciation that some of the stuff thrown out as society secularized.

They shouldn't have thrown out, but when it's not happening, is it moving back towards traditional religious practices? And I have seen this [00:33:00] across the young people. I know they adopt religious practices that are much closer to ours like the ones who are actually thriving. There's like these small communities of like ortho bros and like, Like new catholics and stuff like that But they're not as big as the people raised to strict Catholic and Orthodox families who are leaving.

And they also do not seem to be finding partners or having kids. Which is really interesting. Whereas the people who are doing it more like you and I are doing it, which is like new religious ideas continuing to evolve and fortify religious practices to work in a new era. Pretty much all the ones I know, a lot of them are really young, but they're like getting married.

They have long term partners. They've made this s**t work. And that's been really surprising to me how effective they have been. And I think it's because they are approaching a lot of these things functionally. It's like I need to become a better person and adopt these religious [00:34:00] systems for the end of finding a partner, raising the next generation, continuing human civilization.

Whereas in this other community, it's more like a cargo cult where they think a cargo cult mixed with a religion, which is even worse. If they do all of the religious menstruations, then ministrations, ministrations,

Simone Collins: then

Malcolm Collins: they will be given a partner and kids and a good life. And that's not the way it works.

And so because they have this, it's their very faith that everything is going to work out that is destroying their lives. And it's, it's, it's sad to see, but yeah so if we want to talk about the rise of genital parenting two studies here one showed that 78 percent of parents in are adopting gentle parenting techniques.

This is a parenting style where you do not punish your kids, where you do not give them negative stimulation. Another shows 74%. So we're looking at like three of four millennial parents is doing gentle parenting. That means that they are trying [00:35:00] to raise children the way this study defined it without intimidation or punishment.

Horrifyingly mentally scarring to a child. And then another was talking about TikTok videos that have the hashtag gentle parenting have amassed a staggering 2. 5 billion views. And one thing I really want to emphasize here is this is the coward's way out. It is the easy solution. I love it how like people act when they see me punish my kid.

They're like, oh, he must have lost control or something, even though it's clear from even our own channel that we talked about bopping kids. We talked about the context in which we bought our kids. We talked about you know, how we do it.

We showed video of it, like way before any of these viral things happen, whether it was a guardian or, you know, me being in public recently or and. It's clear that like this is something we thought through to protect our kids. No parent wants to punish their child. No parent wants to punish their child.

That's the easy thing. Sitting down and trying to talk things through with your kids. [00:36:00] That's the easy thing. The hard thing is setting boundaries for them and boundaries that do not lessen their exuberance for life. When you sit down and you talk it through you, you know, Really lower the willingness of the kid to push boundaries in the future because you're making it look like they emotionally hurt you by It's, it's like, consider it this way.

Okay, so there's two scenarios, right? A kid does something he's not supposed to do, bop, go back to your desk, ignore it. He goes, Oh, I did something I wasn't supposed to do. I won't do that again.

Simone Collins: And they know that

Malcolm Collins: too. I mean, it's going to that point. It's not happening immediately afterwards. It's not like a, yeah.

You go down and you take that kid aside and you have this long conversation with him about how what he did is wrong. You're like really emotionally

Simone Collins: f*****g up that kid. No, you're rewarding the kid. Okay. If you, if a kid's acting up and then you take them aside and you get down on their level and you make eye contact with them and you [00:37:00] tell them about, Hey, how are you feeling?

Why did you do that? What are you doing? You're giving them one on one attention. That's a reward. You just rewarded your kid for having a freakout at the grocery store. What are they gonna do? They're gonna have more freakouts at the grocery store. Like I can't emphasize how stupid of an approach it is.

It's so bad.

Malcolm Collins: It's so bad. Oh my God. I need to pair the grocery store video with the boondocks episode.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. Yes. Anyway,

Malcolm Collins: 42 percent of teens now experience persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness. This is from the center of disease control and prevention. And the closer you are to the urban monoculture, the worse all this is One in five LGBT teenagers attempted unaliving themselves in 2022.

And that's according to the Trevor project. That's bad. That's really bad. The problem was, oh, I forgot. It was even higher among the trans community, one in seven teenagers will experience a mental disorder by who [00:38:00] now three and five teenage girls reported feeling sadness every day for at least two weeks.

This is from the New York times three or five. So more than half of teen girls.

Simone Collins: Well, I

Malcolm Collins: don't know. That's

Simone Collins: Par for the question. Youth mental

Malcolm Collins: health hospitalizations have increased 124% from 2016 to 2022. I

Simone Collins: feel like that's criminalization also, like, you know, you, you call your doctor, you call anyone who's a professional now.

And say, Hey, my kids, you know. Why could frown? They'll be like, well, you better send them to the emergency room because there's so much fear around liability, which bothers me. So I feel like part of this is an institutional issue, but I hear you. This is bad.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, but the liability issue is like society is constantly blackmailing us.

Oh, yes

Simone Collins: And in fobbing things off to Yeah, they don't they're like,

Malcolm Collins: oh a kid's not coming to school. Well, I guess that's like it's like well I mean, obviously you need to be doing things different and they're like, I don't know like that's not like Talk about this too much, man. I'm [00:39:00] sure something will work out for them.

No, it won't. The cuckoos are eating all the food and that's the next generation's leaders. It is, it

Simone Collins: is.

Malcolm Collins: Or at least the leaders of the communities that are going to replace this portion of humanity.

55 percent of Gen Z and Millennials have been to therapy with over one in four planning to stay in it forever.

Over one in four Gen Z or Millennials plan to stay in therapy for the rest of their lives.

Simone Collins: We can't say it's not a cult anymore. We cannot say it's not a cult.

Excuse me, are y'all with the cult? We're not a cult. We're an organization that promotes love and Yeah, this is it

Simone Collins: Therapy works when you stop. You know, when you stop therapy and you get out, that means it worked. And if people plan on staying in it for life, that means that your therapist is like,

Malcolm Collins: That means they built dependency or you're treating it like a religion or some sort of religious.

Is the holy guide to living pure, this will help explain. First, [00:40:00] Laughter. Her name's Lorraine, too? We're all Lorraine, and you will be Todd. A name chosen especially for you oh. You're not

An oppressed minority. you're a cult!

Malcolm Collins: No, it is.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I guess again, it is meant in our, in the urban monoculture. It is the thing that takes a place of religion. And that's honestly, when you, if you were to take recordings, and I hear this all the time about people talking about how important it is that your partner sees a therapist or that you see a therapist regularly.

If you just replace that and was like, you know, Seek goes to church on Sunday and believes in God and, you know, let's God, you know, lead their life choices. It would suddenly make sense. You know, like you really need really, you got to get your house in order, you know, go to church, you know, have, have a moral system in place.

And what has replaced that [00:41:00] is. therapy, which is, well, what's

Malcolm Collins: funny is it doesn't work as well. If you look at the statistics, it doesn't work rates and people seeing therapists versus the depression rates of people who go to church or the unaligning oneself rates, we will be like, Oh, it's correlation. You don't get to claim it's correlation when one in four millennials plan sustain it forever.

And 55 percent are going like, that's not a correlational issue. That's the therapy is causing the problem.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. But also I just, I can't get over. This realization that anxiety and, and depression and fear, they really are things that fill the void that opens up when your life is not full of things that matter.

And that includes, like, just disasters, you know, when, when, when the world is burning down, there's a war suddenly your depression and anxiety. There's no, there's literally no room for them, even when things are like, you know, especially when things are [00:42:00] disastrous, but also when you have, when you are full with work and meaningful stuff, and there's literally no room for anything else.

Again, there's no room for fear and anxiety and depression and malaise. And well, that's where religion religion doesn't fix this stuff. That's wrong. Religion. makes no room for the void that is filled by the bad stuff.

Malcolm Collins: I agree. And the next time Simone, somebody in a public context, like they did at hereticon pushes back against you disciplining your kids.

You need to point out to them that you not disciplining children is killing children. Not disciplining kids kills kids. Kids need discipline. Now here is, and I think that's good against a lot of what people assume is they're like, Oh, this new generation doesn't know how to use screens. They're like freaking out about it.

75 percent of Gen Z actively monitor their screen time. 75 percent monitor. What does it mean to

Simone Collins: actively monitor

Malcolm Collins: your screen? Like screen time tracking apps. Like how [00:43:00] much they're using different programs. You know, like the program.

Simone Collins: I don't use that. I know someone who uses it.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, well, these programs exist to allow you to track how much you're using different things.

People have used them for a long time, and 75 percent of Gen Z is using them. Gen Z is not out of control of screen time. It is not screen time that's causing this. Again, I can tell you, as somebody I definitely growing up middle school, high school spent probably six to seven hours a day in front of a screen when I wasn't at school.

Like the idea and I didn't have all of these, these issues, the idea, and I was on all of the chat room. I was on the worst of the chat rooms. I was on chat rooms before chat rooms had moderators. I was on chat rooms.

Simone Collins: Don't you remember? Oh my gosh. Do you remember in those early chat rooms when we were first on them?

The first thing everyone would say is ASL. Age, I was on chat rooms before they can like, well, I'm an 11 year old girl and my interest is this and there is no control. Oh, those are the good [00:44:00] days. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. We were hanging out there before they came before there was even a token attempt to kick out the PDA files.

Simone Collins: No, no, it's just like, come on in. Let's start with an opener. That's perfect for them.

Malcolm Collins: And, and I think that this idea that kids shouldn't be on their screen is like, Oh. If they're not on their screen, what the f**k are they doing? Playing in empty parks? Going to empty malls? Where do you think they're socializing if not on their screen?

A kid who you've taken their screen from is a kid who you have locked in a proverbial hell.

Simone Collins: Well, again, people are on screens and scrolling and getting into numerous loops because they're not allowed to go outside. They're not allowed to walk into town because their mom will get arrested. They're not allowed to walk to and from school because their mom will get arrested.

They're not allowed to babysit their siblings because their mom will get arrested. They're

Malcolm Collins: not allowed to do anything where the mom has gotten arrested. There's a real story. These are real cases.[00:45:00]

No, but we've seen this. I didn't think it was that bad. I didn't think that me just being angry at a kid would have two moms accost me at my car. I didn't think that because I let my kids like walk around a playground on their own, that I've had some angry old man accost me. I was watching from the car and he's like, Oh my God, your kids are crass.

Like kids are supposed to cry. He's like, but they're crying. And I go, yes, what am I supposed to do? Stop the kids from crying every time they cry. Like that's going to f**k them up. Kids cry when they want to do something and it doesn't work out. That's something that people need to learn to deal with.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's play is learning your own boundaries and learning other people's boundaries and gentle parenting removes that. It's terrible. And

Malcolm Collins: even if it has some momentary effects while the kid is with their parents when they go to work. So, for example, 42 percent of Gen Z have thought about quitting their job within the last three months.

It's around a half. [00:46:00] I've thought about quitting their job in the last three months. It makes sense.

Simone Collins: Because again, there's this realization that no matter how hard you work, you're not going to be able to afford anything anymore. So what's the point? You can't buy a house, but you can't buy a car,

Malcolm Collins: comparing themselves to the previous generation and not generations before that.

Simone Collins: That's true. Yeah. Yes. And then people to be fair. So generations before could buy a house, but they were small, tiny, That's

Malcolm Collins: not true, Simone. Okay, so this is a, this is a, an effing lie that is told to people and I'll explain the reality of generations before. If you look at, like, if you study anthropologically, the way people in cities were living if they were poor people, they would live in houses with like 12 other people.

Usually family members. They did not, not, not, not, not. try to buy their own or rent their own apartments in New York. That is not a thing that ever happened historically for anyone, but the [00:47:00] wealthiest of the wealthy. And then people will be like, well, I could have gone to the frontier, you know, the dangerous frontier with dangerous native Americans who could kill you at any time.

And they're like, and I could have like staked land there or gotten a house really cheaply in one of those regions. And it's like, Yes, you could have done that. But today you can go to Africa and buy a cheap house. You can go to Latin America and buy a cheap house. That's where we got our first house.

It was way cheaper than in the U. S. And very affordable for most millennial remote jobs. That you're not considering that you're not taking that seriously. And you're like, well, that would be dangerous. Well, the frontier was dangerous too. Well, that would require me to up in my life. The frontier required people to up in their lives as well.

Well, that would require you, you, you have all of the environments, all of the advantages that somebody from, you know, the, I'd say the 1890s, 1750s, 1700, 1650s had you just. Have diluted yourself and people are [00:48:00] like, well, people back then had more social connections and it's like they effing did not, they had more social connections as I stayed in the town.

They grew up in

Simone Collins: now. Yeah, no, that is interesting. We, maybe that's worth some additional analysis is the, the amount of. I don't know what the word is. So it's not social mobility, but the, the extent to which people do not live where they grew up anymore and keep moving, both makes it very hard to form relationships, but also form community.

And they're

Malcolm Collins: choosing to do that because they value money over persistent relationships. And that's fine, but you've got to find ways to utilize that. And there are, there are ways to make money and make fulfilling relationships online, as I did when I was growing up, I, all of my friends were online. All of all my good friends were online for long periods.

I

Simone Collins: mean, no, I had some great in person friends. Let's

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I did during certain portions of my life, but not during every portion. And when I had good friends, you know how I did [00:49:00] that? I go to the local, like at my college, go to the local bar and just walk up to any group of people I didn't know, put on my hand and be like, look, I'm new here.

Or I'm looking to meet new people. I'm Malcolm. Do you mind if I join the conversation and this is something people don't do anymore because they are afraid of that group saying, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not interested. And group said that.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And it hurts, but you have to be okay with the hurt. And, and every, again, every rejection is a rep.

It is, it should be seen the same as lifting a weight or bringing your focus back to your breath and you're meditating. It is a good thing. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If your kids can't deal with the hurt, they're not going to deal with the world.

Simone Collins: No. Well, and they're not, they're not going to do anything of consequence at all, for sure.

Because success is built upon a mountain of failures. You're not going to achieve anything if you don't try and fail a ton of times. Because if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. You're not doing something aggressive enough [00:50:00] at all. And the fact that failure is seen as a bad thing in the first place is embarrassing.

It's embarrassing. For anyone who believes

Malcolm Collins: and the final thing I'll post here, which I think is interesting is on the partisan gap in spanking, which is to say that spanking rates are actually increasing among Republicans

Simone Collins: increasing. Well,

Malcolm Collins: good for them while decreasing in Democrats and independents.

Simone Collins: No, that's I don't know.

It's not surprising. I just

Malcolm Collins: know that this graph, which unfortunately ends in like 2010 or like, I think it might be 2015 where it's ending. The Republican spanking rate is over 85%. Yeah. Okay. Really? That's impressive. Well, for Dems, this has it at like, 64 percent unfortunately ends in like 2010 and Independence, it's around 70%.

Simone Collins: Gosh. I think

Malcolm Collins: it's just, like, way higher than people realize as well.

Historically speaking my, read it that it's fallen off a cliff in like the last 10 years.

Like, when you actually raise kids, it's like, oh, obviously, kids need discipline. Duh.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and it is [00:51:00] possible to not discipline a child and have them not die. If you have one, maybe two and that's most people who choose to have kids by a long shot.

So I I guess I get it. But even then you're better off doing it. So

Malcolm Collins: anyway I love you to decimone this conversation has been very enriching for me and I hope you had a wonderful day.

Simone Collins: I did we we made some Incremental steps forward on the things that mattered to us, which is what makes me happy in a day.

Exactly.

Malcolm Collins: And Internal insight we have into who might be managing things within the government going forwards in terms of what hasn't been announced yet has gotten us very excited.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Very.

Simone Collins: So promising. 2025 is going to be amazing.

Malcolm Collins: Yes! This is not brat summer. This is disciplinary. This is disciplinary.

It's bop summer.

I need to play the song with the Splatoon sisters and the, and the fascist outfits [00:52:00] here. It's cute.

Simone Collins: Okay.

I should be the catch when I got my glamour Got us all excited but I can't have mine

Malcolm Collins: Well, goodbye. It's, it's, it's, it's the cat girl authoritarians. Oh, I'll also put the one from, um, what, what, what show is that? Helsing.

Helsing has an alt right cat boy in it. A cat boy in it? Cat, well, yeah. A feminine alt right cat boy is in Helsing. Yes.

Speaker 10: Uh, oh!

Speaker 12: Oh dear. What is the problem Herr Schrödinger? Doctor!

Speaker 10: I'm sorry. I seem to have misplaced my handbook.

Speaker 12: Oh, what to do with you? Go share with the captain for now.

Malcolm Collins: Um, Called Schrodinger.

Simone Collins: Well, that's cute. Okay. Alright, well, you had me as Schrodinger. No, you had me as alt right [00:53:00] catboy. So we're good. By

Malcolm Collins: the way, he's not alt right. He is an actual Nazi.

Oh. Okay.

Simone Collins: Well,

Malcolm Collins: I mean. But this is what the left calls us, so, you know, whatever. Embrace it. Yeah. I love you, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you, too.

Malcolm Collins: Goodbye, Malcolm.

Simone Collins: Oh.

And you

Malcolm Collins: sent out the Heritage Foundation email?

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins: did. You did a great job with that, by the way.

Simone Collins: Thank you. So how do you like my Puritan collar? Speaking of Ukraine? I love

Malcolm Collins: it,

Simone Collins: Simone.

Malcolm Collins: Did you get it from Ukraine? Is that why you keep mentioning Ukraine?

Simone Collins: Whenever you were here? No, your mom bought two pairs of sweatpants and sweatshirts.

from Ukraine that came with these random collars and I didn't know what to do with them because who wears a collar with a sweatshirt and sweatpant pair but they work perfect for this with with stays

Malcolm Collins: and yeah I, I'll [00:54:00] tell you what, I find it cute. Simone. I think this outfit is very cute on you. Very.

It's actually a good

Simone Collins: heat layer. So I kind of get, like, I've been thinking a lot recently 'cause our house is so cold about a lot of things that existed in the past and, and historians answers for why they existed and why I think they really existed. And I think Pilgrims were these freaking callers.

Because they're warm. I think Quaker Road's dude had this on because it was cold outside. And I was thinking also about, you know, like canopy beds, like this over here. And why people would put canopies over them. And people were like, well, it was because vermin would fall from the ceilings and no one wants a rat to fall on them.

When, you know, you're, you're Sleeping. And maybe that was a factor, but I think the bigger factor is that just breathing within an enclosed space, heats it up. I keep waking up in the middle of the night and I'm like, well, under all of my blankets. Cause like on our floor where our bedrooms are like the kids room is warm, but our rooms are [00:55:00] like, it's 50 degrees.

So keep waking up under my covers and I'm very warm. Cause I'm just breathing under my covers and it's heating the space up. If you cover that with a canopy and you have curtains and there's a canopy over, That thing heats up when you draw the curtains closed. So I don't think it was about privacy. I don't, I mean, it may be a little bit, but probably not really.

And I don't think it was about vermin. I think it was about keeping the heat.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I, I, yeah, I I think you're right. And I think that these people just haven't had to live like somebody from the 1800s in a long time. Yeah, well, there's

Simone Collins: that one woman. There's a couple of historians, which there's this one.

British woman who does a lot of the actual work, like she'll try different ways of washing linen clothing and she'll dye. I was just watching an episode of something where she was one of the key historians, like living historians demonstrating how Victorians celebrated Christmas. And one of the things she does, for example, with another woman is, she, she, she dyes ribbons and apparently what you [00:56:00] use is like condensed evaporated urine to fix the, the color dye. And so here she is like pouring urine into a bucket and it just stinks. But like she does it. And I think, yeah, she's one of the only historians I've ever seen who is actively out there, like, skinning chickens and baking the food in the old way.

Okay. And yeah, when you actually start doing it and living that, then you see what it's like. And it's so cool that we live in this house built in 1790 ish that allows us to kind of experiment with that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, and, and that we live a lifestyle of austerity, which I is so shamed in the mainstream culture.

And I think one of the things we're going to be touching on in today's podcast, which is going to come after this random chat. Is really hurting people psychologically and emotionally and there's so many pleasures that just you won't get to know if you don't live with hardship, you know, if you're not living, if you're, if you're heating your house in the winter, for example, you don't get to know how cozy it is and the [00:57:00] quality of sleep you're going to get, you know, when you cozy up in a freezing house

Simone Collins: under a really nice warm blanket and a warm, cozy bed.

Yeah. One of

Malcolm Collins: me actually thinks that seasonal affective disorder is. maybe partially caused by warming houses in the winter. And I don't think that humans are supposed to like biologically designed to live in warm houses in the winter. And I suspect that that might be what's causing it. It's like, it's like effing up our system.

It expects it to be in the summer. It's like, you can think of it seasonally as like when you know, like when a ride and I'll play the Mr. Beans get here when a rides movements are out of line with its animation that it's showing you and that causes. Oh, and it's so

Simone Collins: creepy. Yeah. Like your body's telling you, you should be cold.

You should be sleeping more. And yet the lights are telling you stay up late and the heat is telling you take off your. Bundles and Yeah. Yeah. The signals are crossing. That could be that that

Malcolm Collins: is some potential age. Yeah. I think might, it might be like the car sickness, but emotionally speaking from [00:58:00] not enduring what you're supposed to endure every winter.

Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. And then the worst thing is then in winter you're also supposed to be like eating a lot less. And because of that, people built all things fast so you eat more,

Simone Collins: or I guess you eat a lot in the fall to build up that labor. But I think appetite increases in the winter. And appetite suppressed during the summer and appetite increases during the winter.

So appetite increases when you're exposed to cold.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because you would have less food around. Oh. You would, you would generally in the winter have access to fewer calories because, you know, that's the way this is, that's the way it works. Yeah. And because of that you would generally be eating a lot less in the winter.

And what happened as a result of that is they built a number of festivals into the winter season because you were not working the farm and you were already in a state of like half starvation anyway. So if you're going to have a community sponsored festival, this is when it makes sense to do it. And these festivals led to things like Thanksgiving and Christmas.[00:59:00]

But now what this means is that the winter season is just a series like Halloween. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Thanksgiving, by the

Simone Collins: way, used to be a day of fasting. It was not Thanksgiving was, yeah, dude. Yeah, no, it was a day of, you know, solemn prayer and, you know, devotion and thinking about. You know, kind of like a conference Sunday, you know, just like of, of more.

Well, they fucked that one up.

Speaker 19: Explain to me what you're doing. I make a paper airplane for subscribers. Okay, and so, why are you making them? So I can sell. You want to Yes, because I want to make money. What if they're not subscribers? If they're not subscribers, I'll tell them if they're subscribers. And if they say, I'm a subscriber, then they get a paper airplane.

Speaker 20: Okay, but what if they're not a subscriber? [01:00:00] If they say, I'm not a subscriber? I'm not a subscriber. Then they won't get a paper airplane. Subscribers get them for free. You have to pay. They have to give me money. They have to give me all the money they have to get a bigger place. Because I make a lot of money.

What are you going to do with the money? I'm going to buy a water. Like, like, like Water! Whoa! Sit on your butt like a gentleman. Whoa!

Malcolm Collins: Do you in notes here, I'd really love to hit the 30,000 subscriber mark before the end of this year. So if you are a fan of the channel and have not subscribed, please do. , we really appreciate [01:01:00] it. In addition, if you want to go to the pro natalist conference where we will be this year coming in Austin. I think it's coming up in a couple of months. you can get a discount code using the word Collins.

Join Simone and the host as they delve into a detailed discussion on a fascinating thread about crime statistics shared by their friend, Cremieux. The episode focuses on how a small percentage of individuals are responsible for a vast majority of crimes, illustrated by examples such as shoplifting in New York City. They also discuss the broader implications of these statistics, including potential solutions, the effectiveness of three-strikes laws, and the controversial topic of genetic predispositions to criminal behavior. Additionally, they touch on the idea of penal colonies and the execution of repeat offenders. The episode takes a complex look at criminality, its impact on society, and explores both historical and modern-day enforcement strategies.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Simone, I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we're going to be talking about a interesting thread by a personal in person friend of ours. A guy we quite like Cremieux it was on crime statistics and it focused on how very few people commit the vast majority of crimes.

Simone Collins: Oh yes.

Malcolm Collins: We had talked about this in our episode on police, but I wanted to have a dedicated episode on this particular subject because I find it interesting and I think he provides even more color than we had before. So I am going to go over his statistics and I'm going to give you a chance to react to them and I'm going to provide some additional information.

Simone Collins: Three cheers for Camille. I love him.

Malcolm Collins: All right. New York storefront businesses are already weathering inflation and uneven recovery from the coronavirus pandemic are also contending With what the police say is a dramatic increase in shoplifting, but statistics reveal a startling reality.

A relative handful of shoplifters are responsible for an outside percentage of retail crime. Nearly a third of [00:01:00] all shoplifting arrests in New York City last year were just 327 people. Police say collectively they were arrested more than 6, 000 times. So just 327 people. Rusted over 6, 000 times. So, for example, that means in New York, 0.

00385 percent of New York's population is responsible for 33 percent of the shoplifting in the city. Now, if you are a sane person, you might be thinking, Why aren't those people in jail always, but it gets worse than that.

This isn't unprecedented by any means. The number of burglaries in ster plummeted after three minute, died in a car crash. And I'm gonna put an image on screen here, an article about this. It actually took me a bit to find how much it went down. It went down by from 2019 to 2023 by 43%. Ah, yikes. [00:02:00] And these, by the way, are three white looking bro guys.

So if you're like reading this and you're like, oh, this is like a black person thing or a Mexican thing. No, it's, you know, depending on where you're living. It's just a criminality thing.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, it seems to be when people make this their careers. Then they just keep especially if they discover that they can make it their career kind of sustainably And they don't really get in that much trouble for it of course, they're incentivized to keep going because it's easier than working and they're probably in some kind of debt hole or Crime hole that they can't get out of

Malcolm Collins: I disagree that doesn't appear to be what's happening It appears to be mostly genetic.

We'll get to that in a second.

Simone Collins: Oh, no

Malcolm Collins: So, Cycling UK hails quote unquote clever policing after bait bicycle used to track down 130, 000 pounds of bike theft a bike theft gang stole in one shift.

Local bike theft fell 90 percent following the arrest with 11 people now sentenced. [00:03:00] So arresting 11 people. Dropped bike theft in one British town by 90 percent Okay, yikes And this is where like there's a progressive meme of that guy who's like, well, this guy stole my bike But you know net the world's probably happier now because he needed the bike more than I did and you know Progressive brain rot of assuming the stabber is the victim and not the stabby if not having a sane mind and understanding that the vast majority of crimes are done by very, very few people who are career criminals and who are working for other career criminals with that money generally going.

Downstream to like big crime syndicates that are using it to terrorize grannies in Mexico like no nobody is benefiting from your bike being stolen. In fact, it's making

Simone Collins: things worse Yeah

Malcolm Collins: better off if whoever stole your bike on average If a bike thief was [00:04:00] forced to kneel and execute it on the spot, the world would be better off.

There would be less pain and there would be less suffering.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Emma looks that way, yeah. I mean, from these stats, that's, oh, gosh, this is terrible.

Malcolm Collins: I'm not saying we need to start executing everyone who commits a crime. I'm just saying, think about it. Just saying, please

Simone Collins: consider it.

Malcolm Collins: That's all you're saying.

Alright, here's where It gets concerning here.

Simone Collins: Okay, like it's not already immensely concerning.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is a home. I'm just gonna have a drink here. So you could because we're gonna be talking about adoption studies.

Simone Collins: No, no,

Malcolm Collins: 1, 1 percent of adoptees whose biological parents had 3 or more offenses were responsible for 30 percent of convictions among adoptees. The 1 percent of adoptees whose parents had 3 or more convictions. We're responsible for 30 percent of the offenses among [00:05:00] adoptees. If you stopped people with three or more convictions from having kids, the number of crimes in this country would drop.

I'm not saying that's really danger town. This is a statistical fact. I am saying we shouldn't do this. That would be a horrible, horrifying thing to do. I'm just putting out the statistics. Say that the 1 percent of adoptees whose parents had committed three or more crimes committed over 30 percent of the crimes.

Simone Collins: Wee woo, wee woo! Danger! Oh, God! They tried this! The PR disaster was It's not good for PR, no. This is so bad for PR! This is so bad!

Malcolm Collins: Ah! Yeah. I don't, yeah, not a great PR wise, but if you, if you want to see how bad this would be here, I'm going to [00:06:00] show a, a homicide rate

Simone Collins: graph. Sure. Show me the homicide rate graph.

Well, so this is

Malcolm Collins: a homicide rate for the rate of criminality graph. So, what it looks at is the homicide rate. , so the homicide rate for people who've been arrested of other crimes. Okay. And the homicide rate of non-criminals. Okay. If you look at non-criminals, the rate hovers around like two to 3%. If you look at the percent of people who've been convicted of other crimes, it's like between 10 and 7%.

Simone Collins: No, because of course it is.

Of course it is, of course. Yeah. You are

Malcolm Collins: saving lives by executing that bike theft.

Simone Collins: Yeah. This is really. It's making me reconsider. So I grew up in California where there was something called a three strikes law that was largely condemned. I'm going to put huge numbers of people in jail who quite frankly should not have been in jail.

And I think a lot of that is because they were sorry. There we go. [00:07:00] I think a lot of that is because they were jailed for drug charges, like just possessing marijuana. Like that was enough for them to get three strikes and then just be in jail forever, which is super dumb. But now when I look at the, the level of.

committing crimes again and again, when they're damaging crimes, crimes that are like possessing marijuana, dude, like this person's just chilling out for the most part. Okay. But then when you're shoplifting, when you're committing burglary, when you're committing an aggravated assault, when you are God forbid killing someone that's very different.

That's where I feel like three strikes laws suddenly make a lot of sense because this is ultimately who's committing all the crimes. And it's clear that if someone has committed a crime twice, They're probably within that really small percentage of the population that's just going to keep doing it and really, really, really hurting society.

Wow. I mean, it just makes so much sense. And now I'm getting really frustrated that the three strikes law was so poorly executed in California, which is probably [00:08:00]

Malcolm Collins: minor drug offenses instead of like thefts. Of

Simone Collins: course, that's not a good idea. Like who thought that was a good idea. And now anyone hears three strikes,

Malcolm Collins: like that's a bad idea.

And Democrats, Newspeak thought it was a good idea. But hold on, remember who was, who was, who was your head? No, sorry. Who was the head of your cops and legal department during that period? It was Kamala Harris. , someone who has brought, when they said, Oh, you know, you have, you smoked marijuana privately.

This is someone who jailed thousands of people, tens of thousands of people for marijuana charges. She laughed when she was asked if she'd smoked marijuana.

Simone Collins: Because she,

Malcolm Collins: she laughs always. That's her thing.

Simone Collins: She laughs.

Malcolm Collins: Laughing is her favorite. Laughs as if to imply, of course I am. I'm the elite. I get to do whatever I want.

That's what I

Simone Collins: would do as an autistic person who's just trying to.

Malcolm Collins: Simone, she would have said no if the answer was no.

Simone Collins: I don't know. Listen, honestly, like, As, as someone who constantly is trying to [00:09:00] look normal and public and just make people feel comfortable and happy. I imply a whole lot. Hold on. Have you smoked marijuana?

No.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, you have. You must have. No. Are you actually, you haven't smoked marijuana?

Simone Collins: No, I've never, I've never done any illegal drug ever, period. I, I have, I have done fentanyl, that is in surgery, that has like only been in hospitals and I've had Xanax. So you're arguing

Malcolm Collins: that Harris is as square as you and she doesn't want to admit it?

Simone Collins: Yeah, she doesn't seem to me like the kind of person who would enjoy like, I disagree. I think who

Malcolm Collins: caves to peer pressure and whenever we're around her, like billionaire friends or otherwise, like super successful friends are always. This is a weird thing about life. Like as an adult, I understand dare so much more than as a kid.

We go to heretic on, they're like free tattoo seminar every day. You want to go to your free tattoos today? You should have [00:10:00]

Simone Collins: gotten a tattoo ring. I'm just saying

Malcolm Collins: it's or they'll say like, Oh, you know, we, we hang out with our other like super, super wealthy friends. They're like, Hey, you want to do drugs, man?

Our, our normie friends never asked us to do this s**t. They never, have you seen

Simone Collins: the, the tweet that went viral, which was a picture of Rfk on Trump force one eating McDonald's

With

elon musk and donald trump, and I think it was don trump jr. I love it. It was like peer pressure

Rfk who hates mcdonald's, of course he came.

Yeah,

he kind of had to

Yeah, no rich people peer pressure is a real thing. But also I don't I don't feel comfortable with With Like controlled substances like that, because I don't know the exact dosage and provenance like I spoke about this with someone I won't name who has done a lot of psychedelics, but he, he has done [00:11:00] them all with like, Stanford researchers who have like lab grade psychedelics.

And I would like

Malcolm Collins: to be psychedelics.

Simone Collins: No, this is a guy, this is, but no, yeah, no that that was it was the the person who was in our house when a deer was shot outside Oh that guy it's the tornadic precursors guy who's like but well like in in those scenarios You I would, of course, be comfortable. Well, I mean, we don't want to do psychedelics until we feel like we're less creative, but like, I would be comfortable trying something else if I knew that it was you know, I knew where it came from.

I knew what the dosage was. I knew exactly what I was playing with. But I, I wouldn't just like, I don't know, it's, it's, it's akin to eating food off the floor. You don't know where that's been. I mean, okay, I eat food off the floor all the time now that I have kids, but like, you know what I mean. Yeah.

It's like eating a an ice cream cone that you found on the street in New York. I'm not doing that. That's gross. Even if a billionaire got it. I [00:12:00] don't care. Gross.

Malcolm Collins: All right. So I'll continue with this. Please work.

Simone Collins: God. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Go on. If you're talking about the three strike law, if the three strike law had been effectively enforced in Sweden, it would have reduced violent crime by half.

That's huge. The three strike law is actually important in terms of reducing crime. And we, as a country need to say, let's learn how to correctly implemented instead of. It's bad.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. A few people with extensive criminal histories drive most crimes, arrests, etc. When it comes to the population that actually serves jail time, the reasons largely have to do with these people just being impulsive.

And that's the end of the day. It is all about impulsivity, recall that violent crime explains the largest part of the prison population and that getting in dumb fight explains most violent crime.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And that's all about impulse control.

Malcolm Collins: Most violent [00:13:00] crime.

And even most homicides that are known were created by personal disputes. And after personal disputes, the next biggest one, Is group related conflict and after that it is instant dispute and after that it is drug related dispute What is instant

Simone Collins: dispute?

Malcolm Collins: I think it's just like Basically somebody pissed you off And after that It's robbery way down down.

No, no, no, no, no robbery. I think what happens when you go past robbery domestic violence again Just poor self control. Yeah, and then below that You retaliation or revenge?

Simone Collins: That's a crime?

Malcolm Collins: Well, when you murder someone, it is.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. These are causes for, okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Not murder, murder or assault. Like, revenge isn't a crime in and of itself.

Yeah, I was like, ooh. Or revenge is, yes.

Simone Collins: No, except for there was that one [00:14:00] exception. I think it was in some Asian country where if you were a woman, And your husband cheated on you. You had the right to legally kill him. I think you had to be with your bare hands, but you could kill him.

Malcolm Collins: Whoa, wait. So if you murdered me with your bare hands, that was legal in that country.

Simone Collins: My understanding was yes. That if you had proof that they cheated on you and you murdered them with your bare hands, you had to get out of jail free card with that. So I think what I would do as a wife in that scenario, if I cared about that, and I wanted to kill my husband, is one, you get totally documented proof, you submit it to a lawyer, you make sure, like, the lawyer's like, yep, checks out, this is going to hold up in court, and then, I mean, I think it's pretty easy to strangle someone at night, like, while they're sleeping first you sort of restrain them.

I don't think you'd

Malcolm Collins: be able to strangle me unless you drugged me or something first. I'm significantly stronger. Dude, you are

Simone Collins: such a heavy sleeper. That's the

Malcolm Collins: problem. Even so, I'd wake up in time. Simone, I really just look, you know how much stronger I am than you

Simone Collins: really [00:15:00] have to tie you to the bed or something, but okay, you'd have to tie me to the bed that there would be like a well known collection, like an online forums of like, okay, if you're a wife in this country and you've been cheated on, you know, I'm like, there'd probably be specialized lawyers who had like kits, you know, like, here's your.

And also the best

Malcolm Collins: way to kill someone used to be on a cruise ship. Very easy way to kill someone. No, no,

Simone Collins: but this, again, I think that the rule in this country was that you had to kill them with your bare hands.

Malcolm Collins: Like you couldn't take a firearm. No, yeah, I'm just saying because you're like different countries.

We're not in that country. If you want to kill someone in this country, it's boats.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, well, and not get caught, right? Like you don't even have to like be worried about the legality of it. Yeah, you just knock them off the cruise ship. Because there's such a

Malcolm Collins: tragic boat

Simone Collins: accident.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: and it's, it's considered an accident and it happens to like a surprising number of people every year.

Simone Collins: Yeah, like, if you ever meet someone who's, who's a family member or significant loved one died in a tragic boating accident. Yeah, they're a murderer. [00:16:00] Tragic boating accident. Yes. It's always, it's always a tragic boating accident. Yeah. If it was

Malcolm Collins: well, for yachting accidents, of course, you know, yeah, but no, I mean, that is a great way to kill someone.

When we have a, whenever I'm really

Simone Collins: old,

Malcolm Collins: Podcast episodes is about this. Yeah, how you would kill me if you were gonna kill me and how I would kill you gonna kill you. But I think

Simone Collins: that the answer that both of us came to is just boats.

Malcolm Collins: No, I said icicle.

What, like? Icicle. So you typically need a murder weapon and it melts.

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins: get that, but

Simone Collins: like, how do

Malcolm Collins: you do it? Well, so what you argue is that the icicle fell from a nearby building. This kills people all the time. All you need to do is stab someone with an icicle.

Simone Collins: Oh, inside. Like, so they're asleep or something, and then you stab them from the right angle.

No, don't do that.

Malcolm Collins: That'd be too easy. I mean, you might even create like an ice shooting gun and then stab them where the gun wound was. Oh, just

Simone Collins: create an ice shooting gun. Like that's so easy. Oh, [00:17:00] okay. And then why don't we just, you know, solve the housing crisis at the same time?

Yes. And then perfect. Good. Done. Done. I'm glad we had this conversation. The ice shooting gun.

Malcolm Collins: You put the ice through the wound. You can say, oh, this fell after they fell. And then it fell through up there. It melts the weapon. And then it melts the

Simone Collins: You put the ice through the wound that you created with another weapon?

Malcolm Collins: Yes, because it would destroy the Forensics is better than that.

Simone Collins: No, no, the ice has to be the weapon. So you create, you create the ice shard, you Supposedly, but see, you'd have to stab them from an angle that plausibly could have been a falling icicle. And then also you have to make sure that from within the home, like, if you're not doing this on top of a plastic mat that you somehow dispose of later inside your home, you also have to remove all blood splatters.

You have to remove it from your body. I mean, people bleed, people splatter. It's, it's, it's embarrassing and gross. That's why I'm not into murder. It's like too [00:18:00] unhygienic. Well, yeah. Why don't you just like quiet, quit in your relationship and let it fall apart the normal way, you know, do it the normal way

or maybe

Malcolm Collins: like just.

If we were going to get into robbery, okay? Okay. How would you do robberies?

Simone Collins: Now, robbery is when you just take it from someone. Burglary is when you sneak in. Are we being burglars or robbers? Explain, okay, how

Malcolm Collins: would you do it? If we were going to make our money through criminality, how would you do it?

Simone Collins: Oh, dude, like, office space style, where you discover how to like shave a penny off of transactions in some way where like We don't

Malcolm Collins: have access to anything that we can put above

Simone Collins: Well, then step one is get access to something like that.

I mean, I'm sure that there are billions of people in the federal government doing this every single day. It's called procurement.

Malcolm Collins: You know, no, no, no, no. I think that you've hit on a huge under, under exploited arbitrage area of criminality,

Simone Collins: which

Malcolm Collins: is stealing from corporate offices that not many people are using anymore.

I think there's a bunch of corporate offices that people barely visit anymore. They're really just there [00:19:00] to tell investors. Oh,

Simone Collins: it's all just like remote work. No, no, no. But people are starting to enforce. In office work again, I think largely companies like Amazon because they got permission and huge tax breaks for these offices in states that expected people to come and do the office.

Malcolm Collins: I don't disagree that companies like Amazon are doing this, but what I'm saying is I bet there's a 10 to 25 percent of companies in the United States right now that are basically empty almost all the time.

Simone Collins: Well, we know this when we host those dinner parties in New York and we're like in a 36th floor on Park Avenue.

Yeah, because

Malcolm Collins: we can look at the offices. They're, they're just all empty, but here's, here's

Simone Collins: why I also feel like burglary is super dumb now and I don't get it. Is this like, where's the secondary market for this? Are they selling it on Facebook marketplace? You're not making a ton of money there. Like who.

Who's buying this?

Malcolm Collins: You would need to industrialize the scale of this.

Simone Collins: Oh, and that's why there's like this huge Mexican cartel that sells all the bikes. Yeah. I guess you have to create a, a, a, you have to take it to scale. Yeah. There has to be like some, [00:20:00] some scale that you're going to take. What scale?

Staples, you're going to sell the staples. You're going to sell old computers.

Malcolm Collins: It's all on like, like eBay or something. Right. It's pretty undifferentiated products.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But if you do this, it's like, okay, you've got to hire minimum wage workers. Right.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But if you do this at all of the corporate parks, right. There are just so, so, so many of these.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Maybe that's where AWS gets all its compute power. Maybe this is where Newegg gets all of its computers. Maybe this is already being done.

You know, you always wonder. I know. I bet have these places. It's

Malcolm Collins: like dusty and old and they don't have like new computers and no one's been there. I genuinely think a lot of places are like only pretending to operate and really no one has really worked for them since COVID.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I just, I wouldn't work in resale.

I just feel like, Oh, like getting product market fit like that's now you're just creating a business. It's like, just. I don't know. Find something easier [00:21:00] that doesn't get, you know, that doesn't involve crime. Cause that's another liability and that's, that's uninsurable. I just wouldn't do it. So, okay. You want to ensure our crime business?

I don't know. I want to protect myself from downside risk. I think that, you know, any, any responsible business owner, and this is why ultimately this is unfortunately coming back to this really uncomfortable conversation about. Like in the end, if you're dumb enough to do crime, it's typically because you are, you're not, you don't have the processing power capable of thinking through all of the consequences.

And therefore you do it because you aren't thinking about the downside. What's the downside? Where you don't

Malcolm Collins: do crime because you can't get insured. This is, this is

Simone Collins: your, because I'm thinking of the second and third and fourth and fifth order consequences. And my argument here in the problem and the very inconvenient truth.

Of crime is that the people who commit crime maybe aren't capable of thinking through the second and third and fifth and seventh [00:22:00] order of consequences.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, Simone. So you have to make your money through something that's illegal. What are you doing? Our family runs out of money.

You're just like, I need money tomorrow. What are you doing?

Simone Collins: I'm doing something legal because if it's illegal that your downside risk could make it could take you from 0 to dead to. Your family taken away from you. Like just, again, the downside risk, crime doesn't pay. I mean, crime pays some people, but then there's always, you know, think about the guy who was a dread pirate Roberts, huge respect for him.

Read that biography. Fantastic biography. Can't remember the name of it. That talks about his whole story, creating the silk road. He was, I mean, okay. He got, he was very sloppy and made some very stupid early mistakes, but he was very smart and he still got caught in and it's like, you just, it's not worth it.

How do you get caught trying to remember? He let it was a sting [00:23:00] operation. Someone that he trusted

ultimately got close to him and was able to reveal enough information. And then he was also found. In a library, they were able to get him to a library. He was

Malcolm Collins: a library to do what? How did that confirm with him?

Simone Collins: Oh God, I can't honestly, if my memory is so bad, if it's not useful to me, I don't remember it. He had to be at a library to, with, with the laptop, with all the incriminating information. And that's where they had to catch him. They had to lure him out there, but I can't remember exactly how and why they did that, but it was incredibly smart.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-2: If you're curious like me on this particular point, I decided to look this up and edit and post. Oh, Rick made at several critical areas that led to his identification. He used the name Altoid to announce silk road on a Bitcoin forum. And later used the same username to ask for programming, help providing his personal email address, both older. And dead. Pirate Roberts were vocal supporters of libertarian economists Ludwig Von [00:24:00] misses with older it's public at Google plus account. Linking to related videos.

Oh, getting busted for a Google plus account

they seized a server in Ireland that gave access to personal chat logs.

They traced it to live with activity to a cafe in San Francisco, near his residence.

The final trap, October 1st, 2013. They monitored public places with free Wi-Fi like San Francisco. It's Glen park neighborhood. Old Rick was observed leaving his apartment and entering Glen park branch library and undercover agent posting as a silk road administrator engaged Treadright at Robert in an online chat. When Orrick logged. Into the silk road administrator account, FBI agents in the library, moved in and arrested him to prevent Olrick from encrypting and deleting his files.

Agents created a distraction while another seized his laptop.

Malcolm Collins: But here's what I would ask.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Tomorrow,

Simone Collins: the

Malcolm Collins: head of a Mexican cartel dies, you end up taking over because they, they find out that you're the long lost. Then I like

Simone Collins: legitimize their business. I'm like, all right, we're firing these people. Like, [00:25:00] I'm, you know, I am going to have to kill people. Kill you if you do that.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. You have to, you have to run their existing operation. Okay. Where are the arbitrage opportunities within the criminal market right now?

I think you'd be the most ruthless and effective criminal boss I have ever seen.

Simone Collins: Aww, thank you.

That's sweet. No, I think honestly, I think a lot of women would be really effective criminal bosses. What if they had the

Malcolm Collins: Mexican cartels right now as a woman?

Simone Collins: Yeah, that would that would not surprise me at all even remotely but I think it's one of those things also, I think, where a big problem you get in many industries, like the fashion industry, for example, is it attracted like much of the talent it attracts is just kind of dumb.

talent that doesn't really understand fashion or business dynamics and just is like, Oh, it's pretty, it's high status. And they go there and they kind of mess everything up. And then when you get someone who goes in there and has a business mind, they just clean up. And often they don't give a s**t about fashion.

Like when you look at how some key people at Vogue dress, they [00:26:00] like wear like black sack clothing because they don't care. Like they just, they can't be bothered. And then they kind of dictate how everyone else dresses. Or I mean, that's how it used to be. Now, of course, fashion is very different industry dynamics and market dynamics, but yeah, I think the, the, the core thing is understanding the, the underlying dynamics and the 40 game of chess and not actually caring about the thematics of the thing.

And I think to a great extent, crime is like, it's like a search fund. So, search funds or Like down market private equity is what we were into and it was all about finding inglorious markets that were under managed. That had a lot of people operating them who could it with smarter operations and better connections make a lot more money.

And to a great extent, I think crime is a lot like that. It's stuff that. People just don't want to deal with and then they find there's a market opportunity and they make money from it.

Malcolm Collins: So here's my question for you. If you're choosing between 1 of 2 styles, because the existing cartels that sort of fight have 1 of 2 styles and 1 cartel, they try to do [00:27:00] everything pretty businesslike and be on good terms as much as they can with the local population.

And the other major cartel just basically kills anyone who opposes them. Which side, how would you handle opposition if you were running a cartel?

Simone Collins: I would probably, I would be the former and I would probably step in. Here's, here's where I guess there's, if we're talking good tailwinds, right? Is to become What government has failed to be so like vigilante.

So like they'll just go in and kill people who shoplift multiple times, like just dead. They will be, they will be the ones to be law enforcement when law enforcement literally doesn't have the right. So when the U S

Malcolm Collins: starts to collapse, you will start a criminal organization. A criminal org. Yeah.

Simone Collins: That also, well, and of course it needs protection money. Like it does, it does take tax. Taxes. Yeah. Yeah, taxes, but like, yeah, basically like the government, like Work with me here. Like, imagine, [00:28:00] but it works. Manhattan needs a set. No, but like, this is, this is, but this is, that's the thing is, this is literally what Kings were.

Kings were the ones who like, were able to create enough societal stability and order. Where, like, you would become the clan chieftain, or you'd become the king, and then, like, suddenly, then, like, civilizations spring up, and then you have a legitimate government, and suddenly you're not a criminal anymore, you're respected, and you wear your robes, and you're, you know, so, like, fancy, and you have your, like, hood, and, like, just, but, like, yeah, that's what I would do.

I would create civilization. And it would start out illegal and very violent because it would need to be, I guess. What would you do? Would you be the nice or the mean?

Malcolm Collins: I actually think you do need a certain level of ruthlessness to maintain operations in a region like this. I think like what

Simone Collins: America, New York, a CVS,

Malcolm Collins: New York.

I think what you need to have is hard lines in the sand that cannot be adjudicated by on the ground people, or they will abuse these lines in the sand. However, [00:29:00] You do need some sort of system from adjudication, which is fairly good at deciding. It doesn't need to be perfect 80%. And somebody crosses 1 of these lines execution.

And I think outside of that, things like incarceration, especially long term incarceration and government system. For like, the death penalty are really silly. They're very, very, very expensive government. Death penalty actually costs more than keeping someone in jail for their entire life.

So we need to make these systems more efficient and more extreme.

Speaker: Well, you'll probably want to take your own life. Here, you'd better have this.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that you would quickly see. Many people living better lives, both because they're not dying due to the, you know, as we pointed out, the criminal individuals end up killing lots more people.

Simone Collins: Two words, Malcolm. Penal colonies. Say it with me. I mean [00:30:00]

Malcolm Collins: Well Uh, here's the question I ask you about the adoption study.

I mean, what are your thoughts on sterilization?

Simone Collins: I mean, it's maybe sterilization is making a comeback. There was that one Japanese politician who thought that one way to boost fertility in Japan was to Forced sterilization on Japanese women who didn't have children by the age of 30.

Malcolm Collins: I actually agree with that.

People need to understand their fertility windows. And I

Simone Collins: think No, I He's getting on something, but he's, he's, he's sort of Modeling it. There are two things that he's touching on here that have a lot of weight. One is people have to be aware of their fertility windows. Two is people won't appreciate the value of life until they understand just how fleeting and rare and difficult to achieve it is.

And he's, he's getting at that, but he's getting at it the wrong way. Threatening people with sterilization is not the way. And this is

Malcolm Collins: where we hit, I mean, speaking of [00:31:00] fertility windows, this is where I hit onto a very interesting fact recently that you and I have been talking about, we might do an episode on.

Which is black American, African American fertility windows are significantly smaller than any other ethnic

Simone Collins: group. What on earth? No, we need to research this way more though. I really want to understand what's going on. That is scary. If you're

Malcolm Collins: a black woman, you need to have kids much earlier. Then other ethnic groups before your fertility collapses and because our society doesn't talk about ethnic differences and things like fertility windows, like we just completely ignore this.

And so a lot of black women are like trying to get pregnant in their thirties and they're like, wait, black women are sterile by the time they're 30.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx): I will note here that this isn't the way the science investigates this problem. They would just say that black women are twice as likely to experience infertility than white women. They would then go on to say black women are two to three times more likely to be diagnosed with Uterine fibroid, which can affect fertility. , and they would say that IVF outcomes are much lower success among [00:32:00] black women than white women. Without attempting to just lower the age at which they're having kids.

Because of course, then we would be admitting that there are actual medical, ethnic differences between individuals, for example, black kids gestate for much less than white kids.

, but we can't talk about any of this for whatever weird reason, which is obviously having really deleterious effects on the black population.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: I can see why from a progressive mindset, it would be horrifying if it got out. That if you're a black woman and you want to have kids, you need to do it in your twenties. If you want to have the same shot as a white woman, who's doing it in her thirties.

Malcolm Collins: And it's like, yeah, it turns out that that's about the case. And this explains, I think, why if you are not in the bottom, I think it's like 15% or 18 percent of income of, of the black population, you have a lower fertility rate than any other ethnic group in the United States.

Simone Collins: That is wild. We know we have to dig deeper on though, that this is going to be a really interesting episode. We have to do it because. Ah, that's so [00:33:00] scary. And Yeah, talk about, like, double sided attack. One, you have Planned Parenthood, which was, like, designed for, like, black genocides. So,

Malcolm Collins: what she means here is that the person who founded Planned Parenthood worked with the KKK.

She said the goal of the organization was to remove genetically undesirable people from the United States population. A very clearly targeted black populations. Even today, 83 percent of Planned Parenthood clinics are in majority minority neighborhoods, and the black population of the U. S. would be a quarter higher if Planned Parenthood didn't exist.

Simone Collins: Yeah, so this is like one end of like, aborting disproportionately black babies in the United States, and then there's this other end of like, oh my god, wait, and their fertility window seems to be disproportionately shorter just For whatever this is,

Malcolm Collins: this is just like, you know, a key for just genetics.

Right? Like it, what I mean is it disproportionately means that the individuals in the community who are like, if you're like, okay, so why is well, see black for people who are

Simone Collins: being, I guess, responsible, waiting until they have enough [00:34:00] money and enough and all these other things that are impossible to get these days.

And then they're ready and then suddenly they can't have kids. This is, this is horrible. Yeah. And then the, yeah, anyway, three strikes laws, definitely in favor. Okay. No, no low level drug offenses. What are you guys doing? Like the war on drugs that one of them is.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no. Trump's actually ramping up the fence and all stuff, and I really agree with it.

No, no,

Simone Collins: no, no. I get that. I'm referring to like the 90s when we're on drugs, where you go to jail for having me

Malcolm Collins: on. He wants to make it a, a death penalty offense to be selling drugs.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and for human trafficking too.

Malcolm Collins: And for human trafficking, and I'm like, yeah, I'm all down for that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, well, I under, I understand about having like really strict rules.

But again, this concept of like possessing drugs means you go to jail is incredibly stupid. I'm not at all for that. And [00:35:00] I don't know, I mean, also like death penalty for selling drugs. I don't know. I don't know. I think that's not well advised. That is not an optimal decision. I think that what we really need to be focused on is getting hard on repeat crimes that are actively damaging to social stability and yes, drug sale and consumption is is a threat, but not as much as, like, Shoplifting and aggravated assault, murder, abuse, things like that, like that, that is, that is a bigger fish to fry.

And once we have those under control, I'm happy to look at drugs, but to a certain extent, I do think that the masses need to know an opiate, like, quite literally based on where society is going and. I want, I mean, essentially what's happening, Malcolm, is, and we've talked about this, a huge portion of society is euthanizing itself.[00:36:00]

And I believe in euthanization that is humane. Yeah. And I think that people being allowed to essentially euthanize themselves with, with a pain dulling medication or, or, you know, a sort of suffering dulling medication. Is, is the, is the empathetic and fair thing to do for people who've been essentially ruined by society and by the woke mind virus or whatever you want to call it.

No, seriously, Malcolm. Like it's, it's not, it's not cool to ruin a bunch of people to, to effectively neuter them. They're not going to have families. They're living in debt. They're not going to have meaningful lives. And then to be like, Oh, and by the way, you don't get drugs

Malcolm Collins: is what you're saying. You want to euthanize the woke people.

Simone Collins: They're euthanizing themselves. They're dead men walking. I just don't want them to suffer any more than they have to.

Malcolm Collins: I don't know. I've never been a fan of euthanasia. They're lazy and they're communists. They're neets. They're already

Simone Collins: flat.

Malcolm Collins: It's [00:37:00] a joke. I know. I know. They asked the president, they go, Mr.

President, what's your views on youth in Asia? And he goes, they're lazy and they're communists. You heard youth in Asia? I know.

Simone Collins: I know. I know. I got your dad joke the first time.

Malcolm Collins: Shut up. I

Simone Collins: love

Malcolm Collins: you. You need to shut up, Simone. You're a terrible wife and a bad mother and I am sick and disgusted to have married you.

Simone Collins: Speaking of which, I'm going to try. To make a Dutch baby tonight. So more air fried, breaded, kariv seasoned chicken, but I wanted to make a Dutch baby and you can tell me if this appeals to you. Cause there's this dude who does these shorts that I'm like, this is a

Speaker 3: little bit weird, but here's how you can

Simone Collins: make a Dutch baby.

Why is my YouTube totally broken? If I can restart it because I feel like you would like this and [00:38:00] it seems really simple and maybe even the kids will like it. And so let's show me, I know I'm getting at my, is your phone over here

or do we need a new phone?

No, God, we need to stop buying things. No more.

There we go.

Speaker 3: It might sound a little bit weird, but here's how you can make a Dutch baby really good brunch dish. Gas iron pans are the best for this. Put it in the oven to preheat 125 degrees. The best part of this recipe is that you can do it all in the blender. So if you're a human, you got this. And if you're not a human, you got this.

I'll be there in five. Three should have been chickens. One and a half cups all purpose flour. Half a cup of good milk. Two tablespoons of that sap syrup. A little ocean. And a really good vanilla bean paste. For all my visual learners, this is the consistency you're looking for. Whoop. Twenty minutes later, add some butter to the hot skillet and squish it around.

Add in the batter and put back into the oven for an additional twenty to twenty five minutes. Or until the edges become golden brown. Kind of like this brown Guatemalan meal. That is [00:39:00] literally an absolute perfect meal. I had a little bit of Parmesan and prosciutto just to get that sweet and salty element.

Chips.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Speaker 3: Aerated. Salty and sweet. Does it

Simone Collins: not look good? Well, no, no, no. Just be separate. Like, in addition to the, to the chicken. Like, as I said. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: that works. Try it.

Simone Collins: Okay. It'll have to be tomorrow. I was going to make it tonight, but I needed an hour to do that since it's a Friday night. Oh, yeah.

Don't worry about

Malcolm Collins: it. Look, Simone use the air fryer Caramel muffins? What?

Simone Collins: What, what do you want as your starch with this? Fried rice?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If you could make fried rice, it'd go really great with our fried chicken. Especially if you can turn it into veggies and cut them up a bit.

Simone Collins: Yeah, you know it.

Malcolm Collins: With the coconut rice?

Simone Collins: With the coconut rice.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, you are my sweetheart.

Simone Collins: You are my special sun pony. My special sun pony? Oh no! You're a very special sun pony. Life is good. Alright, yeah. Three strikes. Good. Drugs.

Malcolm Collins: I want to strike terminals three times. Three strikes.

Simone Collins: [00:40:00] Everyone's allowed three hits, like a pinata.

That's the three strikes rule, but only three, only three. Everyone has a baseball bat, a government issued baseball bat, and you have three strikes. Have a spectacular day Simone. I love you. I love you too. I love you too. Okay.

Speaker 2: I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna pull it. Get in there. And then I'll show you how to actually shoot. And then I know it works. I'm throwing! Then I gotta put that in. And then I gotta Whoa! And then I gotta do this. And then I'm throwing! Okay? Wanna pull your trigger? It suits. Wanna see how it suits? Flash! Flash!

[00:41:00] Flash! Flash! Flash! Flash! And then, you can see the bullet. Oh, no, the

Speaker 4: bullet, the bullet! Who are you talking to, Octavian? Um,

Speaker 2: I don't know.

Speaker 4: Well, who's in the box?

Speaker 2: Um, uh, I don't know his name again. Is he

Speaker 4: your friend? Um,

Speaker 2: yes, I think.

Speaker 4: Why don't you ask what his name is?

Speaker 2: What's your name? I need to play with it. I'm gonna play with

Speaker 4: it. I'm gonna play with

Speaker 2: it. I'm gonna play with it. Yeah!

In this chilling and data-heavy episode, we uncover an FBI program that monitors and labels mainstream right-wing Americans as terrorists. Delving into shocking details, we reveal how certain words and phrases, like 'red pilled' and 'based,' are misinterpreted by the FBI to justify adding individuals to a terrorist watch list. The host discusses the manipulation of Reddit by FBI agents, speculating that the platform may be dominated by these agents, effectively killing genuine discourse. We also explore the wider implications of government control over social media, the misuse of taxpayer dollars, and the erosion of public trust in government institutions. The episode closes with a personal anecdote about the host's family life and concerns over societal decay.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone! This episode is going to be a chilling episode. This is one of those really data heavy episodes. I'm really gonna be bringing receipts here, and what we are going to be uncovering is an FBI program to monitor and label mainstream American right as terrorists, AstroTurf Reddit and manipulate and manipulate.

Big events in America to the extent, so just to get started here, if anyone's like, Oh, come on, you can't, you can't really mean they're this bad, right? We, this podcast is almost certainly on an FBI watch list after the Heritage Foundation forced them through a freedom of information request to release information on a new terrorist list they were building of Quote unquote incels, and so words that would get you put on this terrorist list.

Okay It were red pilled, based, look maxing, Chad, [00:01:00] Stacy, it's over, just be first, incel, and LARPing. LARPing! LARPing! No, because you know, them all right, so on this list,

Speaker 2: Listen, I'll save you some gas. I'm just going down to the stationary store. Then I'll be right back. You don't gotta follow me like yesterday. Alright?

Malcolm Collins: so on this list and, and you'll go, we're going to go over their twisted definitions of these words. Like they say, saying you are based means that you are saying you are racist.

And here I'll put on the screen here, like Fox news, mainstream news, breaking this FBI documents associated with internet slaying, like based and red pill with extremism. And We're also going to go into proof that they've been heavily manipulating reddit to the extent where reddit might be a pretty dead platform at this point.

And people just don't realize it. It's just like a room full of FBI agents talking to each other. And I know [00:02:00] that this isn't the first time when people are like, oh, you wish like the FBI was Paying an interest to you and it's like no we like know they are now because of the love not hate piece that was done on us For a year in our operation That cost a lot for them to run that was very obviously and you can go into the episode on this where we go into Receipts that was probably government backed by the uk government Now we're going to go into what the u.

s government so I want to go over some of their definitions here You And keep in mind, they have in this document, like, all of these words, like, interspersed with, like, pictures of Hitler's face and, like, Mein Kampf and, like, stuff like that. Like, really hateful stuff.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh.

Malcolm Collins: So, they say, based refers to someone who has been converted to a racist ideology or as a way of indicating ideological agreement Okay, it literally means the exact opposite.

It means that you have a logically and [00:03:00] factually informed position that is outside of any mainstream narrative or any mainstream position. So if you're, for example, are hanging out with a group of racists, it is based to say something that is non racist, like antagonistic to racism. I always

Simone Collins: felt like in context, I get the impression that at least the connotation of based is someone who's just unapologetically standing for what they believe they're just comfortable in it Is that not?

Well,

Malcolm Collins: yes, but it needs to be against whatever the group that they are in sees as normative. Oh, yeah. So like someone who's unapologetically

Simone Collins: urban monoculture is not going to be seen as based Generally anti

Malcolm Collins: urban monoculture is based if you're in a general online environment, but if I am at a far right group you know

being pro gay might be based. It just depends on the normative culture that you're within.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Here's, here's what they define red pill as, Simone. Okay. Taking the red pill or becoming quote unquote red [00:04:00] pilled indicates the adoption of a racist, anti semitic, or fascist belief.

Simone Collins: Wait. The red pill emerged from our artist communities.

This is about women and being lied to.

Malcolm Collins: But I point out here that this is, and we'll do a different episode on that someday, this is what our tax dollars are paying for. Somebody was paid a salary to put this together and feel it was obviously wrong and cult like, ideologically indoctrinated misinterpretations of reality.

Our government is deeply infiltrated by the virus and the cuts need to be made severely, even if it means shutting down departments entirely. Yeah. Okay. Here's what they said. Chad means, okay. They say Chad is a race specific term used to describe idealized versions of a male who is successful at gaining [00:05:00] sexual or romantic attention from women.

Incels unsuccessfully compete against chads for attention. They don't compete!

Simone Collins: Wow. Race? Where? Who? Who's being paid to do this? They should not be paid to They're not doing a good jo I mean, like, I don't know what's more insulting. That, like, there's this very politically biased witch hunt taking place. Or that they're so bad at understanding the witches they're hunting.

No,

Malcolm Collins: they're, they're not, okay, so they're not trying to. They are, this is somebody who is a, who is ultra, ultra woke, trying to build justification to put the mainstream white, Right wing on a watch list. Was this from

Simone Collins: the life of Brian? Am I getting the scene right? Where there's this woman, and they're like, She's a witch!

Speaker 3: We have found the witch. May we burn her? Burn her!

Speaker 5: I'm not a witch! I'm not a witch! But you are dressed as one.

They dressed me up like this.

Simone Collins: And they're like, Well, she has a [00:06:00] nose that's long. And they're like, You put this nose on me!

Speaker 3: Well? Well, we did do the nose. The nose? And the hat. But she's a witch!

Simone Collins: Yeah, I feel like that's it. They're like, Well, but they're racists. And then, you know, like, I'm like, wait, why am I

Malcolm Collins: racist? And they go, because you said Chad, because you said you're red pilled. And I'm like, but you define those things as racist.

But like, but that's not racist. And

Simone Collins: they're like, well, no, but we said it guys.

Malcolm Collins: They put it on me.

Speaker 3: Don't dress her up like this. No! No! No! No! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Speaker 5: Yes! A bit! A bit! A

Speaker 3: bit! A bit!

Malcolm Collins: And then the, the, the guy's like, well, was any, any, any part of her which they were. She did turn me into a newt and I got better.

Speaker 5: What makes you think she's a witch?

Speaker 3: Well, she turned me into a newt! Got better.

Malcolm Collins: This is a little like, well, how can you prove that they are you know, racist and anti women well, when Trump wins, they're going to lock up all the women and send them to breeding [00:07:00] pens and all the black people are going to become slaves again.

And then I look around and I'm like, Trump one, is any of that happening? And they're like, well, it got better.

Speaker 13: Oh, Peacemaker! Yes! You're that racist superhero! You only kill minorities, man!

Speaker 14: I've killed a fair amount of white people, too. The ratio is suspect, is all I have to say.

If somebody's committing a crime Yes? Am I supposed to control what their ethnicity is?

Simone Collins: Some things just never change, I guess, you know,

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, but we have another episode, which I'm going to try to have go live before this, where we talk about it's been documented now.

Antifa has infiltrated the secret service. They've definitely infiltrated the FBI. And when I say infiltrated, I don't mean in a nefarious context. I just mean people who watch like Antifa podcasts and agree with their beliefs. And when we talk about what the core of Antifa beliefs are, it is.

Identifying mainstream right wing Americans, or I'd say even the average American now, considering Trump won the popular vote, the average American, since it's like based in Red Pill, identifying them as [00:08:00] morally equivalent to Nazis, so that they have a psychological license to do whatever they would do to a Nazi, to a average American.

And this is where like the punch a Nazi movement comes from and everything like that. And what I mean by this is you have this within the FBI now trying to get this identification of your mainstream American as being like a Nazi so that they have the justification to treat the mainstream American as if they were a Nazi terrorist.

Hold on, we're going to keep going through words here because this, this just gets me. Yeah.

Okay, so, Just be first A phrase used to describe the targeting of minors for sexual advances in order to be their first sexual experience before their perceived corruption by society and is quote unquote justified by some as the only chance incels have to ascend from incel status.

To ascend! Oh! Okay, so for people who don't know what Just Be First actually means, is it saying that women should exercise a degree of [00:09:00] moderation in who they're sleeping with, and that the ideal marriage should be between two virgins? Now, interesting, I can say, I don't know if this is like, realistic for the average person to aspire to, but Also, this is weird,

Simone Collins: I don't know if I'd want to marry a virgin, like, a virgin guy.

Malcolm Collins: I married, I started dating you when you were a virgin. I started, you'd only kissed one other person. You were incredibly inexperienced in this category. And so for you to, and keep in mind, yeah, okay. You wouldn't want a virgin guy, but the point of all this is not about guys. This is about men choosing women, and I can understand the idea that women could be really messed up in this modern dating marketplace in terms of their self perception, in terms of what they expect from a relationship.

Yeah. It is not an unreasonable thing to say that, hey, you know what our ancestors said that we should argue, have like a degree of freedom. of sexual propriety. That they're like, no, that whoever wrote this literally think that [00:10:00] the only women who would not have sexual experience are minors because they have so normalized sleeping with minors that they can't imagine any woman who isn't a minor not having sexual experience.

And by the way, when I met Simone, you were 23.

Simone Collins: 24.

Malcolm Collins: 24. So not at all a minor. Okay. Just a degree of sexual propriety. And I actually was in my later years, almost as many virgins as I did in my early years.

Simone Collins: And you were sleeping with people, roughly your same age. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I just whatever it is that I bring to the table.

Disproportionately attracts the type of woman who happens to be moderately attractive in a virgin.

And people are like, oh, they're lying to you. No, I slept with enough people that I can tell the difference. So to keep going I need to

Simone Collins: put in like the obligatory ew, because

Malcolm Collins: What, you, about what?

Simone Collins: Being able to tell. I just really don't like vaginas. So, I have to say

Malcolm Collins: you. Well, you're a [00:11:00] heterosexual woman, Simone. It's not surprising.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, no. I remember from your surveys, vaginas were very Actually, a lot of guys playing vaginas. Yeah, like both women and

Malcolm Collins: men. We're like Not, not the average man, but like a quarter of men.

Like way more than you'd think.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: Looks matching. A term used to describe the matching of attractive resemblance of both romantic partners, which incels see as a solution to the perceived problem of unattractive men having no potential partners.

How is that a How does this make someone a terrorist? Looks maxing. The process of self improvement with the intent to be more attractive. Oh, how dare you! Improvement as a sign that you're a terrorist. The nerve! He tried to improve himself. He's

Simone Collins: a terrorist!

Malcolm Collins: That's insane. MGTOW, of course they say MGTOW is the acronym for Men Going Their Own Way, which refers to an online community that has overlap with the incel community.

NEET, they see this as a word that, [00:12:00] that is described by this. Okay. Red Pill and Black Pill. So this is, I guess, Black Pill in the context of Red Pill. So, this is a different definition of Red Pill. I love that they didn't even do this document well. They have Red Pill on it twice. They have Red Pill on one page, and then Red Pill, Black Pill on another page.

With a different definition. I mean, this is

Simone Collins: the non version not racist version of their definition, because the first definition was so off. Well,

Malcolm Collins: okay. The red pill refers to a belief shared by many online communities that society is corrupt and that the believer is a victim of this corruption.

Black pill, which is specific to incels, refers to the belief that this corruption can only be changed through massive societal restructuring, often including violence. The left says stuff like that all the time! Society is corrupt! What are you talking about? Like, okay, let me just change the words here, right?

You know, BLM refers to the belief shared by many online communities that society is corrupt, and that the believer is a victim of this [00:13:00] corruption. BLM, ultra, refers to a belief that the corruption can only be changed through a massive societal restructuring, often including violence.

They're just describing the mainstream of their own movement!

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They've got Stacy on here, but the definition is boring. And then they have all this next to things like white power and Mein Kampf. And the Turner Diaries, and Siege, and the next I do not What? Who's I don't know what any of these books I know Mein Kampf, and that's it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's cause I keep I keep using it around the house as like a joke. You

Malcolm Collins: keep using Livenshroom as a joke.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that made them more love and strong and that, you know, like keeping the floor as clean as Mein Kampf, but only as a, no one uses that phrase, like, or, or refers to that book online.

That's anyway. I feel like they needed to keyword stuff it with references to [00:14:00] the National Socialist Party of Germany. And other racist thinkers in an attempt to make it seem like this whole set of vocabulary is used together all by the same people. Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: I want to, I want to understand this department that the FBI that's doing this like it was there an intern or a recent college grad. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: they had a big document. It's called involuntary celibate violent extremism.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: okay. That's nice. So now we're going to go over something even more horrifying, which is and this.

Rabbit hole. I showed you a first video on this that some other YouTuber had done and it was good, but like, as I dug deeper, it's worse than what he made it sound like.

Simone Collins: Are you

Malcolm Collins: serious? So in 2014, Reddit's year end blog post had to be edited because the town that it included as the [00:15:00] most addicted to Reddit was Edgeland Air Force Base.

Here's the problem. It, that indicated that it had over a hundred thousand unique visitors to Reddit. The problem is, is that that the portion, the number of residents of the Air Force Base was only 2, 448. Oops, a discrepancy of 97, 000 people.

But it gets worse than that. Edglin's Air Force Base, not long before this. Other studies that had been funded were one titled modeling user attitude towards controversial topics in social media networks, which explores the manipulation of social networks and the use of quote unquote social leaders to influence opinions and beliefs.

Other studies that had been funded were one titled modeling user attitude towards controversial The, the hilarious thing here is I decided to then try to dig deeper on any of the sources that covered this. Right, because I was like, okay. Is this real? So I would go [00:16:00] to the sources that had covered this which were in the Washington blog every one of the articles on this had been removed I could find sources like actually ironically reddit posts Talking about what was in archived versions of these sites, but the archived versions have also been removed.

So the internet archives have been removed of this at this point, along with every place that it was mentioned. The only place that I could find a non removed reference to stuff like this was in the Guardian, where they had a fairly watered down discussion of this. Fortunately, we have lots of screenshots of these websites before they were removed, so we know they existed, and there has been no denial of the FBI of this activity or the millions of dollars that was spent doing this.

Millions? So if I want to go into what the Guardian had to say about this, U. S. military admits spending millions to study [00:17:00] manipulation of social media. Part of a long term effort to spread propaganda through the internet. The activity of users of Twitter and other social media services were recorded and analyzed as part of a major project funded by the U.

S. military in a program that covers ground similar to Facebook or Twitter. controversial experiment into how to control emotions by manipulating newsfeeds. And if you are, and this is from the Guardian, a far lefty thing. And I think it's because initially they thought that they were doing this to influence things in a right wing direction.

But now we know because of the Facebook leaks and stuff like that, that they were doing this in a heavy left wing direction. The Facebook leak that I'm talking about is a story that the FBI knew was true. Facebook was pressured to remove it, which was the Hunter Biden son's laptop leak. And ban accounts that were reporting accurate news.

The FBI colluded to ban accounts reporting accurate news in the lead up to an election cycle. That is where things are, and we haven't seen any indication of anything like this on the right, which is so funny that the left is always like, oh, the right's a threat to democracy. When they're actively [00:18:00] attacking democracy.

What's fun, I, I've, I've

Simone Collins: actually seen a couple of self-aware, but jokes, but kind of not jokes from people on the left after looking at the results of the selection saying maybe we did steal the last one. Which is I mean, gosh, it's insane. It just, I can't believe that we even saw the results that we did considering all of the things that are happening, like even the hostile nature of the existing government toward anyone who means slightly.

To the right, which is basically just being a 1990s Democrat, by the way,

Malcolm Collins: well, at least in terms of your social beliefs. I mean, I think that a lot has changed, but it's, it's very different. I argue that the left today is actually, it's not that the right today is what the left is in the 1990s. It's that the left today is what the right was in the 1990s.

When a lot of people get wrong because they're too focused on social issues and they're just fighting for a war that doesn't exist anymore, like the war to ban gay marriage couldn't win any [00:19:00] election cycle. Like we're not even like, we don't even slap down rightists when they say this stuff because like we're pro gays or gay marriage.

We slap it down because it's insane. just so dumb. It appeals to such a small portion of the electorate. Um, They're fighting social battles and they see the fact that we're not fighting those social battles is making us more like Democrats of the nineties when the reality is,, the right of the 90s is actually very similar to the far left today. They just represent a different view, which is to say in the 90s, it was about pushing what the dominant culture in our country was on the average American citizen. And now it's about pushing a different dominant cultural group on the average citizen.

So I see that it's sort of a false equivalency there. But I wanted to, you know, one talk about paying to manipulate results. So I think a lot of people, when they look at this and they see how heavily the FBI and the U. S. military towards an extremist woke agenda is manipulating online discourse, specifically in environments like Reddit. it.

I think they can misunderstand [00:20:00] the impact that 97 upvotes or downvotes can have to control what's making it to the front page within the large subreddits and what comments are making it to the top, et cetera. I will say this as somebody who I will not confirm that I've done this, but let's say we may have experimented with a manipulating the way things get to the top of Reddit through pay for vote systems.

It

Simone Collins: hypothetically could have happened,

Malcolm Collins: it hypothetically could have happened, which gives us an idea of how many votes you actually need to create a post on Reddit. And if you have good content that is gelling with the base of Reddit, you really only need to pay for, I'd argue maybe 2000 votes. The fact that they were looking at 90, 000 votes that they basically had complete control over the past decade of what's been at the top of Reddit and what hasn't been at the top of Reddit and likely all other voter based sites, whether that is the E.

A. Forums or Y [00:21:00] Combinator or this is why I think for a long time in non vote based sites like. For Chan, you have seen things moving very far to the right from the perspective of they're like, Oh, the average person isn't that far to the right. Or on X they're like, Oh, the average person can't possibly be that far to the right.

Now they're realizing, Oh, the average person actually is that far to the right. This isn't like, that it was taken over by extremists. It's this, this is what it feels like to not be in an echo chamber. That's being mediated by the

Simone Collins: FBI.

Malcolm Collins: So Reddit basically hasn't existed as a real site in at least the last half decade.

That makes

Simone Collins: so much sense because I remember just living on it and then returning to it in our, I don't know, post kid lives. And thinking this sucks happen. Yes. This used to be a place where people had realistic dialogue in the YouTube video that you shared with me, where you first heard about this and started diving down the rabbit hole after the guy mentioned.

He did a [00:22:00] hypothetical hypothetical experiment where he entered a prompt into chat GPT asking it to create an am I the a*****e post and it made one that was that looks totally native very natural and he was like clearly chat GPT has used reddit as training data and can easily be used to create posts.

Fake accounts.

Malcolm Collins: Well, this is where it gets worse. Reddit has no way to come back from this. Because the way the Reddit and the voting based systems work is if you look at something like Twitter, what does Twitter select for? It selects for the things that cause the largest emotional reaction. Yes. So that can be a positive or negative reaction.

If I want to get a retweet, I can get a retweet by creating a negative reaction just as well as a positive reaction. Well, perhaps even

Simone Collins: more effectively by getting a negative reaction.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, what does it mean If the, the, from like an evolutionary perspective, ideas compete on Twitter through their ability to engage our emotional subsets.

And it's funny that people are like, [00:23:00] blue sky will be different. And I'm like, no, it won't be different because it uses the same system. This is why on 4chan, the stuff that comes to the top is the stuff that way I'd put it? Is the most like attention grabbing in the moment. Because that's how you get people to pay attention on 4chan.

It is ideas outside of a signaling perspective. It's just whatever is on your mind and what you believe to be true. Well, attracting more for things that offend other people to one, create engagement and to act as a filtering mechanism for people who you do not want within your environment to make it toxic to those people.

Simone Collins: We're

Malcolm Collins: going to go over crystal cafe soon, which is like a female version of 4chan. Just mention this to me. I need to dive into this. It's really interesting because they've done the same thing to make it really unpleasant to be a man on there. So you wouldn't even want to like role play as a woman.

How does one do that? Well, you'll see when we go over it. [00:24:00] We're going to go over it in the episode where I argue that everyone under replacement rate is a cuck. Oh great, okay. So be looking, be looking for that episode. But the problem with all of this is, is in, okay, so what wins within the voter based environments?

It is the thing that is the most average of an opinion. The most average of an opinion for that particular room. Now on YouTube, what wins on YouTube? What wins interestingly is the content that is most appealing to people algorithmically like yourself. It's sort of the best place to find good content on the internet.

The, it, and, and community discords, and we'll put a link to our discord here which have a feel of like early internet stuff

Simone Collins: but,

Malcolm Collins: YouTube itself Is very good for I think an average person who wants to know what people like themselves are saying now The problem with reddit and what's going to lead to its self destruction Is the most average of ideas wins the most average and safe and [00:25:00] guarded of ideas While being influenced by organizations like the fbi to be even more average and safe who?

Is going to win at that game, especially if they were trained on reddit data ai

AI will almost always be able to outcompete humans on a platform like Reddit, especially as AI advances further. The tights of story, because it creates the most average idea. And that's what is rewarded on Reddit. And that's why Reddit has no possible future.

And, did you have any thoughts on this before I go further?

Simone Collins: That's sad. RIP Reddit. It had a, a long time ago, it had a great run and I really enjoyed it.

Malcolm Collins: There's so many things, I mean, its staff accelerated its demise.

Simone Collins: It deserved what was coming to it, but it still makes me sad. Imagine, it's like going [00:26:00] to, it's driving by your childhood house that your family moved out of and seeing that it, Went to s**t.

Turned into like a meth den.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: A meth

Malcolm Collins: den with like obviously a bunch of FBI plants. Like, hey, would you like some marijuana, young man? So, no, I the point here being is that if you Go to Reddit. The only reason to go to Reddit is do not go to Reddit to get an understanding of what the left thinks.

The left isn't meaningfully on Reddit anymore. Go to Reddit to get an understanding of what the FBI wants you to think. , that is the only thing that you are getting from Reddit anymore. But great to get an understanding of like how. far this has gone within other countries that have been more infected by the cordyceps virus or wokeism or the urban monoculture than the United States.

The British government considers the following as terrorism and believes it has the right to investigate and jail people for this. So I'll read the quote from their own report. If the disclosure, so saying this being written, or threat of disclosure is designed to influence a [00:27:00] government or made for the purpose of promoting a political or ideological cause, anything that can disrupt the status quo is terrorism.

Oh boy. The UK is

Simone Collins: not going to be okay if it maintains this general stance and Approach to culture slash solving problems. This is not good.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they arrested a guy for this David Miranda case, British High Court accepts investigation. Journalists can be tried like terrorists. And I'd point out here that You're like, okay, so it's like the FBI is a problem and maybe like the N.

I say is a problem.

Speaker 6: Because if people knew how we did it, then everyone would do it. Then our enemies would do it. We can't let our enemies get their hands on this. Get their hands on what?

Dudes.

This is how we know [00:28:00] that

Malcolm Collins: No, this is spread to every branch of our government independently. This is the way the infection works. So, the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States. In a request for proposals filed to companies that are feds vendors is requesting the creation of a social listing platform whose function is to gather data from various social media outlets and news sources that will monitor billions of conversations and generate text analytics based on predefined criteria.

The, the, the Federal Reserve. Why do they need that?

Simone Collins: We need to look at more RFPs. That is. I guess that's something does should, well, they're going to, they're going to audit every single contract, but they should also be looking at new requests. That is deeply disturbing. Also part of me wonders. What if part of the objective of this manipulation was [00:29:00] to kill Reddit?

Reddit being seen as a place where people were radicalized and they just wanted to neutralize it. It definitely wasn't. They

Malcolm Collins: had no, no. They see Reddit as a platform completely under their control. They love Reddit. Reddit's the best. They want people to stay there. Keep in mind. They want people

Simone Collins: to

Malcolm Collins: like it.

Yeah, even the FBI now is worried about things like Facebook, now that Mark Zuckerberg has been like, he was the one who leaked, Mark Zuckerberg is the one who leaked that the Hunter Biden laptop story was suppressed. That, that, that came from the Zuck. The Zuck. He may have taken a while to come around, but I think he's in the process of coming around and I do not think that the FBI trusts him with that sort of request.

Simone Collins: He's in his new era. I'm liking it in his

Malcolm Collins: new era. Okay. Yeah. So I don't, I don't, I don't think of all the platforms, they've got blue sky. They've got ready. They've got like, yeah, What? Like, the, the, the Tumblr teleport Is Mastodon still

Simone Collins: a thing or not? I think there's a lot of Is what still

Malcolm Collins: [00:30:00] a thing?

Simone Collins: Mastodon.

Malcolm Collins: Oh no, not really.

Simone Collins: I think Discord just is everything that Mastodon was proposing to be and so much better. So, it probably never had a shot.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah discord feels like the early internet by the way for people who weren't around in the early internet and if you want to join our discord, you can find a link.

It's great I find it a really fun place to hang out online pretty high quality conversations I'd also note here that if you feel like the internet is dying Because like when I go to google now, it feels like an increasing amount of the internet just isn't real Like I feel like as the astroturfing is break as the brain rot You Of the people doing the astroturfing has increased as the cordyceps fungus has eaten of the urban monoculture He's eaten more and more of their brains and their only job is self replication of the virus They no longer think in false thoughts as I mentioned recently I got in an argument with somebody that just broke down into simple phonetic loops like break the cycle like Be better.

Don't, you know, like I was like, what? [00:31:00] This isn't an argument. It's like in Rick and Morty when the simulation is breaking down. And they're like, my man, my man.

What

Malcolm Collins: That's what it felt like in real life. And I was trying to talk to like an average citizen on the street. And I was like, Oh my God, like these people are so brain rotted by the Internet that they lack the capacity for genuine independent thought anymore.

And they're running on it. A collection of phonetic loops. And I think what happened is as the. The bug men have become more and more infected to the extent that they can't have rational thoughts anymore These environments that they were curating and astroturfing are breaking down And we're beginning to realize there was never anyone there That most of the internet has been an astroturf job that dead internet Theory was not wrong.

The internet has been dead for a while now. It is just becoming clear at this point and that the only real conversations you can have [00:32:00] anymore are places like discord, which is pre sorting for people who are following specific, like based or otherwise filtering individuals on YouTube and stuff like that.

Or and to give you an idea of how bad this is in 2006, four years after a website was created, there was a 40 percent chance it would still be around. In 2015, five years after sorry, four years after a website was created, only 3 percent of them were still around. It went from in less than 10 years, 40 percent sticking around to 3 percent sticking around.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. Things are changing. Yeah. I came into this, or before you shared this with me, I thought, well, we're heading into this crisis now where soon no one will know where to go online because everything's going to be generated by AI. But now I realized that for the past five to seven years, it has already been largely fake content that we've been seeing [00:33:00] this whole time.

The call was coming from inside the house. It was already, I wouldn't

Malcolm Collins: mounting the hashtag dismantle the FBI. I don't know if we need it anymore. I mean, if they're not doing anything,

Simone Collins: remember when the, we, we experienced someone stole a very non trivial amount of money from our business. We had their name, we had their address, we had their banking info, and we were told by our bank to send it to the FBI.

And we never heard from anyone. We tried. All the channels we could, nobody got back to us and I'm like, Oh, so are they understaffed? Is there some kind of disaster? Like why aren't they helping us? This, this is, it should be open and shut. They have this person's address, their bank account. Like this isn't like it wasn't,

Malcolm Collins: people understand this person stole money from us.

Very obviously the bank said, yeah, this is stolen money. And we had the [00:34:00] account that the money was

Simone Collins: wired to and the name and their address like we had all of their information and they said submitted to the FBI, but I guess they were a little too busy posting on Reddit.

Malcolm Collins: They were a little too busy watching our show to like track to see how we're like,

Simone Collins: you have to find those incels that they're the real threats.

The, the incels who are spending money online, at least subsidizing the lives of a huge number of women through OnlyFans. I, you know, like, they're, they're doing their part to, to prop up the economy. Meanwhile, someone is stealing a huge amounts of money from us. So no one's, no one's answering the phone.

Malcolm Collins: I feel like, you know, Trumpism is a fight back against this and maybe they can do some remediation, but we really are in a scenario where things are circling the drain at this point. The rot of the urban monoculture has gotten so [00:35:00] extreme. I think,

Simone Collins: you know, Throwing the folder in the wastebasket, letting it go.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and I also think that some people don't, and this is something that always is interesting to me, the people who like know that they're the enemies of the urban monoculture, but like, they don't believe how bad it's gotten.

Simone Collins: Well, I certainly don't. And now I realize that you and I are probably on an FBI watch list.

A

Malcolm Collins: terrorist

Simone Collins: watch list, by the way. Oh, great.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: I told you that basically we, and of course anyone these days, honestly, should assume that every Smart device in their home is being used to actively monitor everything. They say that the big revelation with Edward Snowden that everyone might be listening or sort of at least recording your calls and you should be careful about any keywords used that might get you put on some kind of list really did extend more to any device or anything that you typed into or spoke [00:36:00] around.

So, I don't know, like, fine. Also, I'm sorry. I guess it's great that AI exists because I would feel bad for any professional who would be forced to actually listen into conversations and now at least AI is being used to just summarize everything, but

Malcolm Collins: yeah, well, it's interesting as well, but I love the gems are like, How did we lose the working class?

And it's like you've got to understand the democratic party right now is the party of the corpos It's the party that says your average citizen who is saying based Or incel or who is having trouble dating as a man or saying that there are systemically unfair dating environments for men these days These are the people who should be on terrorist watch lists The people who are disrupting the oligarchs control of our society right now, and the oligarchs are all in the urban monoculture.

You cannot be a party of the working class and be a party for gender transition of minors. Yeah. These two [00:37:00] things are completely inconsistent because your, your rot and your virus ignored the working class because it couldn't extract money from them. It didn't care about them. So when you go to their towns and you say this s**t, they're like, Whoa, you are you are a monster, sir.

You are a high grade monster and I want you away from my children.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, the other thing that disturbs me. Is that okay, a lot of people on the left are, for example, saying, I'm very disturbed. You know what? What if if all these government organizations are going to be shut down? Who's going to be running quality control on my food?

Who's going to be managing these essential services that. And that's the thing is, is I think really at this point, people think that the government is doing a lot more than it is actually doing. The government stopped doing those things a long time ago, and you have a false sense of security that they're being done just because [00:38:00] there is a massive amount of spending being done on it.

You don't realize that that spending is going to bureaucratic waste, and to pensions, and to debts, and not to people. To a bunch of activity that you assumed was being done. And I think a big crisis that you and I have had in adulthood in general is assuming that because something's being paid for, it's being handled.

It's not true.

Malcolm Collins: And the Biden administration, and we go over this on our video on the inflation stuff and the Biden administration that it It's like, Oh, look, we're doing so well in jobs. All of its job creation, it shrunk in terms of real jobs. All of its job creation was just in the government sector or things downstream of the government sector, like healthcare, like it just pumped more money out.

It just printed more dollars.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Yeah. I think the new paradigm should be. All things are paid for as they are received. So when you complete the service, you get paid. When you deliver the product, you get paid. And, and no one [00:39:00] should be paid until very concrete goals and progress is made. This concept of salaries or budgets in general, I think has become bankrupt.

And it could, we have the ability now, for example, with AI. To actively monitor achievements well enough to pay people as we're going along. I think that salaries had a reason to exist and budgets had a reason to exist in the past because it was just impractical to pay things like to pay people for achievements as they went along.

It would be just too much micromanaging work. Now we literally have the technology to just pay for things as they get done because the AI can just check milestones and be like, okay, yeah, release the funds. We can't keep doing this because I think what's happened. Is we've reached this period of quiet, quitting, lying flat, et cetera, where organizations and people have generally realized.

The mods are asleep. No [00:40:00] one is paying attention. I can just stop working and guess what? No one even really knows what I'm supposed to do.

Malcolm Collins: Crime rate. We had an episode on this where it's like doubled in every major area just in the past, like eight years. Like the, the world has quiet quit.

Simone Collins: Yes, the world has quit quietly, and nobody realizes it, and we just think everything's being done, and it's not being done, and I'm so scared.

And intellectually

Malcolm Collins: quiet quit as well. I think that this is another thing that really needs to be hammered on which is to say that a lot of individuals When I look at the internet today, when I look at the ideas that are being shared there, it feels very frost punky to me. Like there's this one little community like, Well, does that make you

Simone Collins: feel good?

You love frost punk.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it does make you feel good. Like also the people connected to us that are still like intellectually alive and the rest of the internet, like in Shugachara, like they are, are there, they're, they're, they're remnants. And they've mostly been erased from reality. There have no [00:41:00] fire to them.

No light to them. There's nothing there. There's no new ideas. It's just that they're repeating one old idea or another old idea. Yeah, it might be just trying to ethetically LARP some old religion or they might be which is really just. Repeating ideas, repeating ideas, repeating ideas, or they might be urban monoculture.

Repeating ideas, repeating ideas, and the intellectually alive players is such a small community that then has a community of listeners like gathered around it, like around the central generator and outside of this community. little part of the internet. It's nothing but cold and ice. And it's horrifying.

I mean, there's a few little, like, I guess tire fires here or there, but other than that it's mostly a wasteland.

Simone Collins: Well, thank goodness for the tire fires, I guess. Interesting times. Very interesting times. I'm disturbed, but yeah, hopefully, I just really hope that once the [00:42:00] new administration starts working after January 20th, that we actually carve out and start fresh.

We have to, because one, we can't afford everything that is being paid for now. And two, we're not getting things from it. And even like I told you last night, there were six gunshots outside our house. I checked with our neighbors, both of them had, well, I mean, all three, well, all four had heard all of them had the gunshots, except for you.

Cause you were asleep. Cause you wake up at 2 AM and no one bothered calling the police or checking, like trying to see what was going on because there's this, now there's this assumption. That no one's going to do anything. So why bother? And I feel like we've also reached this unspoken collective conclusion that we can't depend on much of the government anymore.

Well, that's not to say like, at least for the family, for

Malcolm Collins: my room, you're like, [00:43:00] Hey, any, any good cyber Monday deals for AR 15, we've

Simone Collins: been planning on, it was on our black Friday list since. August or something for a

Malcolm Collins: long time. I mean, how many do you want ultimately for the house?

Simone Collins: I don't know. Get one with every kid, one for every kid.

Malcolm Collins: Well, then we need a few more.

Simone Collins: Oh, then keep checking for more sales. They're not inexpensive, but

Malcolm Collins: they're

Simone Collins: worth it.

Malcolm Collins: They're worth it for a collapse scenario. We just need to make sure we have the bullets.

Simone Collins: Yeah, we need to, we need to get, well, that would be another good cyber Monday sale, but anyway, I, I think that society has collectively realized this, but it's one of those things that we don't want to admit to ourselves.

So we don't talk about it a lot. And I think that's one of those signs that we're in the middle of the collapse. It's that period where you're at the top of the rollercoaster, but half the cart is hanging off the dip and the other half is still [00:44:00] back. No, but like half of it, it's already sitting at the top and like the momentum is going to start building, but it's already.

It's already there. And I don't know, it's not going to be, it's not road warrior, like you say, but I do think that there are some things that I really worry about. And it's so lumpy because while none of us decided to call the police after hearing gunshots right outside our house. We also see the police outside our house at least a couple of nights a week because they like to set up a speed trap right in front of our house to pull people over.

Malcolm Collins: Of course they'll do that. They can make money off of you. Like, they're there. Like, you know that they're there.

Simone Collins: That's what's odd. Well, and I mean, every interaction we've had with them has been great. You

Malcolm Collins: know the money they take from, from like speeding tickets? Those go to their departments. Yeah. They don't make money by catching a random kid.

It's basically

Simone Collins: fundraising. Yeah, but I like that they're fundraising around our house because people drive too fast. Still, it's, I don't know. [00:45:00] It's weird because the government is there and the government will help. Like, and also, like, the number, the, the, the ratio of professionals to our kid who's going through kindergarten now because he asked to.

Is insane. I'm like, wow. I mean, they're, they're all like bitter and

Malcolm Collins: terrible. Like we had a zoom

Simone Collins: call, we're like to check in on his progress and they were like five people on it. Like how,

Malcolm Collins: because it's all administrators. These aren't people who are with the

Simone Collins: kid, but I mean, what I'm saying is like, There's this lumpiness where like, if you go to certain parts of the U.

S. government, you'll be surrounded by people. There will be money everywhere. It's like falling out of the walls. And then you go to like, you try to call the FBI because money was stolen from you. Or you're afraid because you know, there were gunshots outside your house and it's crickets.

Malcolm Collins: This administration explosions.

If you look at graphs of spending in the education space, you see it's it's equal on teachers. It's equal like the past 20 years. Yeah, but administration has exploded. Yes, depending on

Simone Collins: students has not changed. But this is the same with

Malcolm Collins: the FBI. This is the same with police forces. This is the same [00:46:00] administration needs to be cut to nothing.

Across the board. Well, and

Simone Collins: it can be without a change in quality, given where we are with technology. Now, the administrative systems that exist in most government and sort of legacy civic offices now are from a time, honestly, a pre internet time. Most of the systems and the way things are run and the processes that were like the standard operating procedures are from a pre internet era.

We can clear out so much waste. And so much spending and maintain, if not improve quality, just because of where we are with technology and A. I. So we're not saying that these things are bad. And I think that's a big misconception when people are looking at this idea of eliminating and hollowing out government.

It's not about taking away the services. It's about restoring them. Because they aren't there right now. Anyway, I think that's a bigger thread for me is it's not just that the internet isn't there anymore. It's not just that Reddit is [00:47:00] fake. It's that so many government services are fake, at least in the United States.

Well, I

Malcolm Collins: love you Simone. We should

Simone Collins: get to know you too. At least we can be warmed by our love for each other. We

Malcolm Collins: are in the circle of love, whether it's our, our, our fans or our family. We, we. Are weathering this I would almost say easily all right. Love you to decimum. I love you too. Gorgeous.

Simone Collins: Warmer clothes because

Malcolm Collins: It is obviously very cold in here as it should be by the way. Did you see the latest thing? I I sent you on whatsapp. I actually almost burst out laughing the moment I read this. No,

Simone Collins: okay. Hold on What did you send me?

Malcolm Collins: It says in the telegraph keep brain dead women alive and use them as surrogate mothers Suggest doctors medical association apologizes after academic argued it could become common a common way to bring new children into the world I was like, you know, there's that, how is it going [00:48:00] meme and then that bad, huh?

I feel like urban monoculture, how is pronatalism, how is fixing it without fixing the culture treating you? Oh, that bad, huh?

Simone Collins: It's, yeah. And I just finished Hannah's Children, by the way, that prenatalist book. She ends with prenatalist policy recommendations, and it's the best that I've ever read of any write up.

It's just focus on the families that are having five plus kids, and the best way to do that is to empower religious communities. To provide their own services amenities and and empower people to give their kids religious education, which is this whole time, like, and that's what is effective and it's not.

She made it so clear so articulately and so eloquently. That there is no amount of money you can pay a woman to completely change their lives and make it about kids. Like, the [00:49:00] sacrifice that you give up, the lifestyle change you're making, no one who's materialistic is going to be motivated by some materialistic incentive.

To do that. Like you can't use materialism to incentivize people to become unmaterialistic.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and I think that this is fundamentally what people misunderstand about this. Is they'll be like, yes, but I don't have enough money to do basic things. If I have kids. And then I point out, are there people who make half as much money as you?

Cause when people saying this to me, they're typically people making like, let's say a hundred K a year or like way more. No, typically

Simone Collins: they make way more than us.

Malcolm Collins: But I'm just saying. This is the crowds that I often hear. This is people earning like. 50 K a year, like median us salaries. Right. Yeah. And I point out, I'm like, you know, that like a good chunk of the American population has a lot of kids and makes a lot less money than you.

Like half what you make. So clearly there is a way to make it work. You just aren't considering it. You are [00:50:00] not considering cutting back your lifestyle as an option.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And another interesting thing that she said at one point near the end of the book or noted, I think this was from other mothers interviews.

That she did with them, that you don't really experience the death. You don't burn away the selfishness. That was the wording one mother used until after two kids. And after that point,

Malcolm Collins: I agree. You're not really a parent until after two kids. Yeah, but there's

Simone Collins: something you like it. You literally undergo a form of ego death once you reach a certain number of biologically.

And

Malcolm Collins: I would say that the change in me as a parent was bigger from two to three kids than from zero to one kid.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. But you'd agree with that, right? That it was a bigger shift to go from two to three, and sort of biologically how you relate to reality, everything like that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, I think you reach a tipping point where once you start to become outnumbered by your kids, it's just mentally so much [00:51:00] harder To keep prioritizing your own emotions and needs over theirs.

They just crowd out the space. There's no space for it. There's no space for your anxiety and your pettiness and your dumb ideas. And it becomes your kids. And I love that.

Malcolm Collins: You have the affordance to make the selfish decisions, which are the cause of a lot of our suffering in our modern society. But I love

Simone Collins: this metaphor of burning away the selfishness.

Malcolm Collins: It's great. All right, I'm gonna get started here.

Speaker 9: Octavian, what are you opening up? The Hot Lava Box. Oh, is it a balance beam? Let's see. You're gonna open up and find out? Is Daddy putting your play structure together? Yeah. Isn't he not the coolest Daddy ever?

It's the best day ever. I'm opening this box. I wonder, let's see what's in here. You want to see what's in [00:52:00] the box? What do you think is in the box? Let's see. Let's see if this has lava. Uh, well, I don't think we brought hot lava for the house.

I think that'd be pretty dangerous. Yeah, remember Octavian, we've been discussing how there seems to be a hot lava problem in the house. Because you keep saying everything is lava. I opened up! So we got you a bridge to go over the lava, silly goose.

In this episode, we delve into the origins of Christmas traditions, debunking the commonly held belief that many of them stem from pagan practices. We examine historical evidence that suggests the celebration of Jesus's birth on December 25th predates the Sol Invictus festival, discuss the origins of the Christmas tree and its late entry into Christian tradition, and clarify the role of Santa Claus, who originated from the Dutch tradition of Sinterklaas. From an exploration of early Christian documents to exposing myths perpetuated by 19th-century German nationalist ideologies, this episode sets the record straight on what truly influenced our beloved Christmas customs.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] The earliest evidence for Christians marking December 25th as Jesus's birthday predates the earliest evidence of a Sol Invictus festival on that date.

, and keep in mind, the earliest evidence and the only evidence of a Sol Invictus holiday on that date was written by Christians. So it would have been practiced around Christian communities that were already practicing a celebration tied to Jesus's birth on that day.

Simone Collins: Wow. Yeah, who's to say that, yeah, it wasn't because of Christmas,

Speaker: My life has been a lie! God is dead! The government's lame! Thanksgiving is about killing Indians! Jesus wasn't born on Christmas! They moved the date, it was a pagan holiday!

Malcolm Collins: Santa Claus was a saint festival that was moved to correspond with. Jesus's birthday. It was not that some, it's not that Jesus's birthday was moved to correspond with a pagan celebration.

It was an already totally Christian saints festival was moved to correspond with a totally Christian [00:01:00] Jesus's birthday as by early church leaders. Right. So it's just some

Simone Collins: religious musical chairs, but all within the faith.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today. We are going to be discussing the pernicious myth. Many Christian celebrations around Christmas came or are descended from pagan celebrations. What? They are not? I thought they always Yeah, you must have heard this growing up where people are like, Oh, this came from a pagan celebration.

This came from a pagan celebration. And in almost every case, There not only is literally zero strong evidence that they are, there is very strong evidence they did not. And there is actually also evidence in a number of cases that some celebrations that they're like, yeah, but pagans did practice this.

And you're like, Yeah, and they started about [00:02:00] 200 years after Christians did. Are you kidding me? They borrowed it from Christians, not the other way around.

Simone Collins: What? This is crazy. Every year I get in the Christmas spirit and I watch a ton of videos on the history of Christmas and the pagan origins of Christmas and you're subverting that all right

Malcolm Collins: now?

I am. But hold on. I couldn't subvert this on so many levels. So the specific ones that we're going to be addressing are is Christmas copied from Sol Invictus celebration or did it get its date from a Sol Invictus celebration

Simone Collins: or Saturnalia

Malcolm Collins: or Saturnalia?

We're also going to be discussing Saturnalia separately.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And is the Christmas tree pagan? . Specifically, we'll be arguing in the case of the Christmas tree that the tradition of the Christmas tree is not ancient, it's not derived from Saturnalia, Yule, or Norse mythology.

And then, finally we will touch briefly on Santa Claus being Christian. But, we're gonna hit this from a really weird angle. Because What may surprise you is I thought [00:03:00] that all of this propaganda about this stuff not being Christian in origin Yeah, came from the modern new age pagan like counterculture movement

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, like I'm a Wiccan or I like my druid ceremony and I want to feel like I'm being I'm doing the real Christmas Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: I'm doing the real Christmas.

Turns out it didn't come from them

What? So, well, but who is Oh, hold on, hold on.

Simone, obviously, can you guess who it came from? This whole Christmas Oh, our ancestors. I'll give you a clue. They're one of our ancestral groups.

Simone Collins: The

Malcolm Collins: Puritans. Yeah. The Puritans in the 16th and 17th century. Because they were

Simone Collins: trying to be like, well, we don't want to celebrate Christmas, because that's some like pure, that's some like, pagan nonsense.

Actually,

Malcolm Collins: Massachusetts outlawed the celebration of Christian for 22 years.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That, that I understood. I knew that the Puritans were all, we don't do Christmas.

Malcolm Collins: What I would say is they were not crazy not to, [00:04:00] to see it as pagan either. So think about it from a Puritan perspective. Okay. You have like many people today where they're like, wait, like when.

When COVID happened and everything like that, they were like, wait, the government's been gaslighting me for a long time. Like they're just been lying to me about stuff. Like I doubt everything. And then they went into like QAnon spiral conspiracy theory mode. With the Puritans, you know, the, the, the Bible was being printed.

They were like, Hey, this doesn't align with what the Catholic church says. You know, let's look to the Bible for what is Christian. And you look in the Bible. And they're like this Christmas stuff is not in here.

Simone Collins: The tree's

Malcolm Collins: not here. The Santa Claus guy is not here. And so they're then like, okay, where did it all come from?

It must be pagan. And I'd also put this in the context of some lines in the Bible that would make them especially suspicious. So if you look at something like Jeremiah 10, 1 through 5, it says, Hear what the Lord says to you, [00:05:00] people of Israel. This is what the Lord says. Do not learn the ways of the nations, or be terrified by signs in the heavens, though the nations are terrified by them, for the practices of the people are worthless.

They cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold. They fasten it with hammer and nails, so it will not totter. Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field.

Simone Collins: Sorry. That's so niche. They

Malcolm Collins: must be carried because they cannot walk. They do not fear them. They do not harm them, nor can they do any good. Now note here, people often shorten this. So if you just hear it like that, you're like, that doesn't sound too much like a Christmas tree, but let's take out about half the words.

Okay. Do not learn the ways of the nations.

Simone Collins: All right. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: For the practices of the people are worthless. They cut a tree out of the forest. They adorn it with silver and gold. [00:06:00] And then people are like that sounds like a Christmas tree.

Okay. But if you hear the

whole context, you're like, okay, clearly this isn't a Christmas tree.

They're talking about the creation of idols that people used to assign special powers to. Nobody really assigns powers to a Christmas tree. Like nobody thinks like the Christmas tree is generating the present. So largely what we're going to find in this explanation as I go through things is that every one of these practices around Christmas is something that likely developed after the time of Christ, but within Christian communities without much external pagan influence and where it does look like there's pagan influence, that's just not the case.

A convergent adoption of an important time, i. e. the winter solstice. There would be a reason for pagans to have celebrations around the winter solstice, and there would be a separate reason for Christians to have celebrations around the winter solstice. But let's go into [00:07:00] this, alright? Anything you want to get into before I go further?

Simone Collins: No, I'm intrigued

Malcolm Collins: because you'd always heard and you believe that this is pagan stuff because it makes sense. It like looks pagan, right? Like, yep.

Simone Collins: All right. It's all sort of, you know, nature and darkness and bringing light and there's nothing inherently. about Jesus being born in there. So seems intuitive.

Malcolm Collins: The argument that Christians chose to celebrate Christmas on December 25th to compete with or co opt the popular pagan festival of Sol Invictus is not supported by strong evidence. Sol Invictus was a relatively minor deity until the third century CE. Unlike major Roman deities like Jupiter or Apollo, Sol Invictus lacked the widespread recognition and dedicated cultic practices that would usually accompany a popular deity.

This lack of widespread importance calls into question the theory that Christians felt particularly threatened by Sol Invictus. December 25th was [00:08:00] not a long standing or particularly important festival day for Sol Invictus. The earliest evidence of a December 25th festival dedicated to Sol Invictus is found in the calendar of three five.

for a Christian document composed 80 years after Emperor Aurelian, who is often credited with popularizing the sun god, instituted a festival in honor of Sol Invictus. The calendar of 354 is also our only source mentioning December 25th as the birthday of Sol Invictus. The problem here being is that the calendar of 354 Also mentions two other Sol Invictus festivals that were likely, given the evidence we have, more important than the December 25th festival.

Specifically, a multi day festival celebrated from October 19th to 22nd, and a festival for the sun and moon on August 28th. The Luddite Solus festival even involved a greater number of chariot races than the December 25th festival, 36 compared to 30. This [00:09:00] Makes it look very unlikely that the so just a little bit of background for people who don't know there was this Roman emperor who really liked to cross dress.

And he came up with the idea of combining all of the gods into 1 God. And he called this God's soul. Invictus. This happened after Christ, but still pretty early in the Christian tradition in a way that it. really paved the way for the Roman Empire to accept Christianity and a singular God. But it was still very Romany in, in nature.

And this is the sole Invictus and our, One of our daughters actually has a name that was partially inspired by this , uh, third child uh, Collins, but to go further here and to some people like, oh, well, Rome had this God that was a one God that was a sun God.

And so we'll say that that Christians just borrowed that date. But in a second, we'll get to some really major problems for this.

Simone Collins: All right.

Malcolm Collins: So now you [00:10:00] might be asking, okay, well, if they weren't choosing the date because of you know, the Sol Invictus celebration, why might they have been choosing the date?

Simone Collins: Right?

Malcolm Collins: It's more likely that Christians selected December 25th as a date for Christmas because early Christian Chronographers were attempting to calculate the key moments of Jesus's life.

This is known as calculation theory. These chronographers were likely motivated by a desire to align dates of important events in Jesus's life with dates of the winter solstice, December 25th, and the vernal equinox, March 25th, because of their poetic and cosmic symbolism. However uh, now you could say, am I saying that they just completely got these dates wrong?

Probably not, because December 25th was not the only widely accepted date for Jesus birth. Christians of the Eastern Roman Empire celebrated Christmas on January 6th, a date that did not correspond with either the winter solstice or a pagan holiday. So what is my [00:11:00] guess? My guess is that the correct date for Jesus's birth is likely January six, because there is no other reason to have chosen that date.

And it is very close to the December 25th date. So what likely happened is when they were trying to calculate things because they knew it happened around this time and the winter solstice was also around this time. It was just easier to synchronize them.

Simone Collins: Right, because everyone was running on slightly different calendars, and the calendars kept changing, so it's easier to go by either lunar cycles, which more Jewish tradition seems to be based around, or around just how long are the days?

And then that seems a lot easier. Yeah, so it's, it's What about all this conjecture that Jesus was probably born around the spring, because there were shepherds out, and all these other things?

Malcolm Collins: The problem here being. That sheep are in fact grazed in the winter, especially in temperate climates, like Bethlehem would have been at that time. [00:12:00] As you can see on middy modern shepherding websites, like the ones I have in the background here this is an argument. Made up by people who simply do not have experienced shepherding.

And so they, you know, create conjecture. When do I think sheep would most likely be grazing?

But it gets worse from there. Remember how she said, oh, and the other evidence will, if you look at the other evidence for spring birth, it is really, really bad. Specifically it is John, the Baptist birth, the gospel of Luke provides information about the conception of John the Baptist. Which can be used to estimate Jesus's bursts by calculating from the time of Zachariah's simple service around June and adding nine months for a little bit.

This is pregnancy. John's birth would be around March since Jesus was conceived. When Elizabeth was six months pregnant, this would police Jesus's birth in the fall or possibly early spring. Oh, but also possibly in December. So what, no, that's terrible evidence. Passover symbolism. I do not think that that's good evidence.

That's just symbolic evidence.

[00:13:00] Astronomical evidence. Some researchers have suggested that the star that guided the match, I might have been a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn. Which occurred in seven BC, which could be used to argue for a spring birth. Again, very bad evidence. So there just is really no strong evidence here. And this is something that's pretty much made up whole cloth. By individuals who want to.

Find ways . To smear traditional Christian beliefs.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: But I can say to me, it's suspicious that the date that had no backing and no reason to choose it was so close to the 25th date that that just seems really weird to me.

It's only like a couple of weeks apart.

Now I'd also note spring doesn't seem likely to me for another reason.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: They were desperately looking for shelter. Why would they be desperately looking for shelter in spring when you could just camp outside?

Simone Collins: That's fair. Yeah. Especially if shelter meant [00:14:00] slumming it with the, with a very crowded family or with animals. Yeah. That leads to disease risk. It probably means that you're cold. And also, it would, it would make more sense if there was a census taking place that, especially if it was over a shorter term period of time, you'd probably do it around the winter when people are less mobile.

Malcolm Collins: Although all right, so so to continue here. Although the census is denied by historic Christian scholars. Oh, really? I don't know what to believe on this. I'll go deeper into it when we go into that in one of our tracks. I would need to see what the Bible actually says. I need to see the different ways it can be interpreted.

I need to see where they're getting things wrong. But generally, I find. That the Bible seems to be more logical than I thought it was every time I go back and read it, which is like the core thing of our reading of the Bible stuff.

this is another one of those times where I decided to check the Bible to see if the Bible said the crazy thing that everyone believes that the [00:15:00] Bible says, or it says something else. And.

Surprise surprise. The Bible says something else. , The only book in the entire Bible that.

Is even purported to argue that there was a census that required people to return to their ancestral homes. Is Luke the problem is, is Luke. Doesn't actually say that what Luke does say is, and everyone went to their own town to register. So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem, to the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.

It doesn't state that they had to go to their ancestral homes. It states that they had to go to their own town. , this could be thought of more like.

You have to go to the tone where you have your state ID. Like he hadn't gotten a new ID for his new town. I don't think he's exactly like that. But, but what I mean is it's more implied that you had to go to the town where you were personally registered, [00:16:00] not the town of your ancestors. , which makes so much more sense.

And it makes a case for a Christmas birth way more likely.

A census that required everyone in the Roman kingdom to go back to their ancestral homes would be incredibly disruptive to have implemented.

And it's something we should see mentioned in other sources because it's an absolutely veiny thing to do. To say everyone who has ever moved in their life has to go back to wherever their ancestors they're from. Like, why would you even do that? Right. , now that this zany idea for how the census was carried out is the way the census was actually carried out. Is a core part of the argument that Jesus wasn't born in December, because if everyone was required to return to their ancestral homes, well then. , you wouldn't want to do that during the cold months, that would be even crazier to do. , so they say, oh, this was done during a warm, easy to travel months.

However, if the [00:17:00] census was not issued in this way, and if the census was issued in a way where, , it was just a normal census, you would absolutely want to do it in December because that's when people would be in their homes and less likely to be traveling, which would make it much more easy to get accurate statistics. , .

So, just to give a bit more on how they likely got to this date. Some early Christians believe that Jesus was conceived and died on the same day. March 25th evidence for this can be found in the statue base of the Christian priest, but lots of yes, dating from. 222 and 235 CE. Hippolytus's quote unquote spreadsheet shows his calculations for the date of Jesus's crucifixion, which he believed occurred on March 25th.

This belief in a combination with a traditional nine months gestation period led them to calculate December 25th as Jesus's birthday. Now, here you may note something like, none of this is anti biblical. The Bible doesn't say explicitly the day that Jesus was born.

Simone Collins: No, the Bible's surprisingly vague on so many [00:18:00] things that culturally are implied to be so explicit, which really annoys me.

Malcolm Collins: Right. And we have early Christians, like right here in this document, attempting to calculate it. They're giving us, in something, you know, 200 years after Jesus died, so fairly early in Christian tradition, we can see Christian scholars going down and trying to do the math. To determine when Christ was born and when he died so, they're not like even lying to us.

They're not even saying like, oh, this was passed down in oral tradition or something like that. They're like, okay, here we are trying to run the math and we're giving that math to you. So, you know, how we got these dates. These are not sacred dates. Now, here is where it gets really, really bad for the pagan argument, and it basically, to me, completely blows it out of the water. The earliest evidence for Christians marking December 25th as Jesus's birthday actually predates the earliest evidence of a Sol Invictus festival on that date.

Again, and keep in mind, [00:19:00] the earliest evidence and the only evidence of a Sol Invictus holiday on that date was written by Christians. So it would have been practiced around Christian communities that were already practicing a celebration tied to Jesus's birth on that day.

Simone Collins: Wow. Yeah, who's to say that, yeah, it wasn't because of Christmas, not

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so the evidence can be found at the statue base of Hippolytus, which dates back to the early third century, decades before Emperor Aurelian inaugurated a Sol Invictus festival on December 25th, December 25th.

was Jesus's birthday before Sol Invictus existed as an important deity. They might have existed as like a weird cult deity, but he was not really important until

Emperor a gobbler and then later,

Emperor Aurelian brought him into the spotlight and like adopted him as like his personal cult. So that completely blows like any possibility of that out of the [00:20:00] water for me.

Simone Collins: Wow. Interesting. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: Just to lay this all out. So there's no doubt. Sol Invictus was not really in shrined as a Roman deity. Until Ella gobble is in shined him at the. Robin DIA deep in 219 theey. So 200 years after Jesus and the Christian community had started to be established. Solar Invictus is a much younger deity then Christ and, and much younger religion than Christianity.

But it gets worse because you could be like, yes. But when Ella goblets was creating the Sol Invictus deity, didn't he combine a Syrian deity named Ella gabala with the Roman deities.

Jupiter and soul and I would say yes, and then they'd be like, okay, but did this Syrian D and D have any celebrations surrounding it in [00:21:00] winter?

No, it didn't. In fact, the primary celebration of elec Abla. Abola the predecessor to sell Invictus was a.

Summer festival. Not a winter festival, a summer festival.

But now here people will be like, Oh, but what about the solar imagery around solely victors?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Really bad argument again. If you look at convergent evolution, because nobody says the solar energy around Christian gods and Jesus and stuff like that came from

Simone Collins: oh, Akhnaten.

Malcolm Collins: Akhnaten, yeah. No, sorry,

Simone Collins: wasn't that, the pharaoh was Akhnaten? I can't remember the name of the god. Oh, I didn't

Malcolm Collins: post, but yeah the, the solo god in Egypt when that one pharaoh was like, very similar to the Sol Invictus thing when he's like, hey! New God, everyone. We're going for monotheism.

Yeah. And we're going to change

Simone Collins: the style of all the statues, which I don't imagine Egyptians are cool with because they're like, no, no, no. Everything's going to be the same forever in design.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. [00:22:00] So interestingly it seems that most monotheistic traditions, even Zoroastrians, for example associated with fire associate God with fire.

Heat warps in the sun as to why this would happen, well, the sun's sort of the biggest thing in the sky it's a source of life for all humans and all things on earth, everything dies without it, it's not a bad metaphor and also here you have a problem, which is that Christians were using the sun as a metaphor for Jesus before So Invictus existed. Or was made popular by this emperor.

So again, very difficult argument to make.

I, I think here before we go further, a lot of the confusion around this stuff that people get to is they hear Christianity came after paganism. What they don't keep in mind is that paganism was ever evolving. So whenever they see a correlation in pagan traditions and Christian traditions, they assume it [00:23:00] went from pagan to Christian instead of from Christian to pagan because they forget how old Christianity was and how much the pagan traditions evolved.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. And your point that all these, for example, Druidic traditions that people like to practice now are

Malcolm Collins: really, really, they're mostly made up. Yeah. We got to do a whole episode on just how fictional Wiccanism is. It is a completely fictional made up religion. It was made up by a few crazy people in like the what was it like 1910s 1920s.

And all the receipts are there. It is, it is entirely fictional and what they're actually worshiping is a bunch of people who practice the child sacrifice. And we can also get into that because the, the pagans, like the Druids and stuff like that, they sacrificed, human sacrifice was common in these.

Well, then

Simone Collins: isn't it kind of nice that they're remaking it?

Malcolm Collins: I'm glad. Well, we don't know. I mean, look at the uh, look, look at the

Simone Collins: but yes, there have been

[00:24:00]

Simone Collins: taking place among modern ,

anyway,

Malcolm Collins: Saturnalia.

Simone Collins: Yeah, Saturnalia!

Malcolm Collins: Saturnalia, the Roman festival of the god Saturn, took place between December 17th and 23rd. The exact links of the festival vary throughout its history. So, first of all, it was not on December 25th. So Okay? Saturnalia was known for its characteristic feasting, gambling, drinking, and perhaps most notably the role reversal between slaves and their owners.

This role reversal involved enslaved people dining with their owners, being waited on by them, and even being allowed to speak freely to them without fear of punishment. The origins of Saturnalia are unknown, but But some Romans believed it harkened back to a mythological golden age when Saturn ruled Italy and slavery was non existent.

Roman authors such as Justin and Markovits described this period as a time of great equality, where social hierarchies did not exist. Historians have proposed that Saturnalia may have, ironically, serve to [00:25:00] reinforce the institution of slavery rather than challenge it by offering a temporary and controlled outlet for social tensions.

Saturnalia may have helped to maintain the existing power structures of Roman society. There is no evidence that the Romans decorated evergreen branches or trees as part of their Saturnalia celebrations. This argument is based on a lack of evidence. No Roman sources make any mention of such decorations in the context of Saturnalia.

This counts date on the popular claim. Okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now. Basically, there is literally no evidence, no suggestion of evidence that Saturnalia in any way was, Influential in why Christians chose this date for the Christmas celebrations and the celebrations themselves are almost completely unrelated to each other in form, in structure, in practice and they're not even on the same dates.

It's. Reaching in the extreme. Wow.[00:26:00]

They make it seem so

Simone Collins: close. But yeah, okay. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Like maybe there was like a gift exchange celebration or maybe there was a No, none of that stuff.

And not the same dates. So yeah, it's just an incredibly weak, weak, weak, weak, weak. And I also note here that these a lot of the research I've done for this. Why have added to it came from a series of videos by religion for breakfast. I think one of the best. YouTubers, religious YouTubers out there. If you are interested in watching more of his videos, I would strongly recommend it.

He's a great guy. I think we actually had planned on doing like a collab project with him at one point until he maybe looked us up and found out how controversial we are. Because he's very non controversial, very townsy. But he's also very not pro traditional Christian. So if you watch his videos, he is a historical Jesus type guy in terms of like scholarship, which means that if he is arguing for these things, he's not [00:27:00] arguing for them to make Christianity look better. He's arguing for them because he believes them. He doesn't like I just think that that's important to note. Like this is coming from a source that would have every reason if there was any lacking evidence pagans did it first and he doesn't.

Simone Collins: I love that.

Malcolm Collins: No any, any thoughts before I go further.

Simone Collins: No, keep going. This is so interesting.

Malcolm Collins: The very recent origins of the Christmas tree. The earliest evidence for decorating an evergreen tree for Christmas is found in the upper Rhine regions of Ascalance and Baldin during the 14th century. Forestry regulations You mean

Simone Collins: Alsace?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I'll sauce.

Simone Collins: Sorry. That was amazing. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: carry on regulations from this period and region specifically from cities like Sunfin and Behem indicate that peasants were collecting wood from evergreen forest around Christmas time.

Simone Collins: Now,

Malcolm Collins: He actually goes into this a lot more [00:28:00] in his video where he's going over this.

Basically, you get these regulations where they're like complaining that peasants are going out and collecting trees around this time.

Simone Collins: The peasant menace is at it again!

Malcolm Collins: Why are they collecting trees around Christmas? Stop it! Stop it! We need regulations! You're going to get fined if you go ding trees!

Speaker 3: What the hell's that? A

Speaker 4: Christmas tree!

Speaker 3: A Christmas

Speaker 4: tree? Buddy dropped it down in the

Speaker 3: park!

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that's great. So, so I also note here that this is in the 14th century.

So that means

Simone Collins: 1300. Wow. That is

Malcolm Collins: early 300 years. After Christ, first of all, right? So, clearly this is not tied to like the writing of the Bible or the time of Christ or anything like that. But this is also a solidly Christian region at that time.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There was not like a big lingering pagan population in these parts of the Rhine [00:29:00] in the 14th century.

This was a 100 percent Christian population. There was no Pagan oral tradition in the background for them to be getting these ideas from.

Simone Collins: Right. Yeah. Their prior was just Christianity.

Malcolm Collins: For more color here, the Phrygian, which were the last pagan tribe in the Rhine Delta were converted to Christianity around 800 CE. So that means that this area had been 100% Christian.

For.

Around 500 years when the Christmas tree entered the population, there was not a lingering pagan sentiment in this region. And there hadn't been for hundreds of years.

And if this was a pagan tradition in the region, then why don't we see it practiced in any pagan writings or any mention of it?

And why did they only start complaining about this in terms of the laws in the 14th century? That doesn't make sense. Well, yeah. And since [00:30:00] when

Simone Collins: did like pagan traditions own. All floral arrangements and tree arrangements. Like, these are the decoration materials we have at hand. You know, why, why do pagans get to like, own anything that is organic in nature from a decorative standpoint?

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, and keep in mind, they cut the trees down like they were not like, yeah, the

Simone Collins: trees died in the

Malcolm Collins: Christmas. If you put a tree corpse in your house This is not a pagan celebration, okay? It doesn't, it doesn't there's just no, like, like, this is just like insane to me, like, that anyone could argue this with this evidence on hand, but we'll get into the development of it really quickly here.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Direct evidence for a decorated Christmas tree appears in the 15th century, with the earliest reference dating back to 1419 in the city of Freiburg. Oh, that's further back than I thought!

Simone Collins: That's further back than I thought.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah they reported a tree decorated with apples, wafers, [00:31:00] gingerbread, and tinsel in a local hospital.

This is the earliest documented instance of a decorated tree. Though the German word used to describe it could also be used to describe a decorated pole.

Simone Collins: Oh I mean, here I guess you could argue

Malcolm Collins: some sort of maypole continuity, but that doesn't really check for me because there wasn't a contiguous this is just very different from Maypolling.

And I'd also note here that tinsel, interestingly Wikipedia says it wasn't documented to be invented until 1610, when it was originally made of shredded silver to look like icicles. Well, that's

Simone Collins: expensive! What on

Malcolm Collins: earth? 200 years before that. Well, everything about this is expensive. You as a modern person, you know, you here in the 1419s, eh.

Tree at a local hospital decorated with apples, wafers, gingerbread, and tinsel. The tinsel might not have been that much more expensive than, like, the apples, for example. Keep in mind this is the middle of winter. Like, [00:32:00] fruit, and especially leaving it in a place where it could potentially decompose. Yeah,

Simone Collins: not, yeah, not hidden under a frozen lake or something.

That's wild. Yeah, actually. Ooh, who's that for money? Also, that's kind of mean. Everyone's sick in this hospital, and they're like, look at this food. Don't eat. Don't eat it, by the way. This is

Malcolm Collins: decoration only. Well, I mean, I think it's a sign of abundance, is, is, is what it was meant to. Well, I hope

Simone Collins: they were eating it too.

It's just, I don't know, it seems a little mean,

Malcolm Collins: but

Simone Collins: whatever. Go ahead. Maybe they felt too sick,

Malcolm Collins: too. Nauseated Decorations for Public Spaces. Office sponsored by guilds before becoming a tradition in private homes. Evidence for this can be found in the records from Talon, Estonia and Latvia, where Christmas trees were set up in public spaces and sponsored by Merchant Guilds.

Private Christmas trees don't appear in the historical record until the 16th century again, wait, hold on, hold

Simone Collins: on then. So like this whole issue of. For example, gay pride parades going to corporate, you know, the gay pride parade brought to you by bank of America. I mean, that is traditional. [00:33:00] If the guilds were sponsoring Christmas tree,

Malcolm Collins: I don't know, because keep in mind, the very first thing was about peasants taking these and putting them in their houses, we don't have any records.

We just know that they needed laws to stop peasants from cutting down trees.

Simone Collins: But at least. The tradition of things going corporate eventually

Malcolm Collins: is well, when they went corporate, they immediately started decorating them and keep in mind that it was in the same region. And this is really important to know if people are like, oh, this regulation around cutting down trees and putting it in your house, like, what evidence do you have that that's in any way tied to Christmas, right?

Here's the problem. The 1st evidence we have a public Christmas trees happens in the exact same region. 200 years later. So very likely that it was a related ceremony.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: the Christmas tree spread in popularity from the upper Rhine region to other parts of Europe and eventually made its way to the United States.

This spread can be partially [00:34:00] attributed to royal patronage, such as queen Charlotte's decoration of Windsor Castle with a Christmas tree in 1800 and the publication of an image of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert with a Christmas tree in 1848.

And as you pointed out, Prince Albert would have, he was from Germany, right? And so he brought this from his region to England. And then it spread from there because of the Queen, you know, big trend sweater. That's

Simone Collins: sort of the big, That's what most people talk about when they talk about Christmas trees going mainstream is when Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, who were the ultimate family influencers of the time, did it.

They made it cool.

Malcolm Collins: Now, where did the idea that Christmas trees had a pagan influence come from?

Again here you're going to be like now obviously you can see where the Puritans got this from, but there's actually another source that came from and it wasn't

Simone Collins: Okay um, another influence. Trees.

Malcolm Collins: German nationalism, think. Making up German traditions. Nonsense. Oh.

[00:35:00] No.

Yes. Okay. Christmas trees are in What? Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'll get to this. Claims that the Christmas tree originated from pre Christian Germanic paganism were rooted in 19th century German nationalist ideology. Writers such as Okay, so claiming

Simone Collins: that Christmas trees are pagan Is a Nazi thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Okay. Okay. The claim that it's pagan is Nazi. So the next time somebody goes, Christmas trees are pagan. You can go shut up Nazi and punch him. They're like, they're okay with punching Nazis. Yeah, there you go. You should be able to punch them for claiming that Christmas trees are pagan. That's a Nazi position.

So writers such as Johannes Marbach and Alexander Tilley promoted the idea of the Christmas tree as an ancient symbol of German identity. The nationalistic agenda promoted the idea of the Christmas tree as uniquely German tradition, despite the lack of evidence supporting a connection to pre Christian practices.

Okay so not a lot of evidence there. Um But uh, yeah, that also makes sense. And this [00:36:00] is something that we've talked about in other videos, right? Nazis were like, the, we was kings of white people. A bunch of old traditions and they make up a bunch of like, Oh, Buddha was a white guy. Like Socrates was like a Northern European guy.

And it's like, this is ridiculous.

Simone Collins: No, I, what I am getting from this is that, especially when it comes to Christmas trees, there were, we have a category of traditions. That eventually works their way into Christmas that started out as just random stuff people like to do in the winter which, you know, it's not pagan per se.

It's just stuff people like to do when it was dark and cold out. No, it

Malcolm Collins: was stuff Christians like to do in winter.

Simone Collins: Okay, but it wasn't about Jesus. That wasn't about

Malcolm Collins: Jesus.

Simone Collins: It wasn't about Jesus specifically.

Malcolm Collins: No, we there is reason to believe it is about Jesus specifically.

Simone Collins: So, hold on. Come on, this was before the Reformation.

So, the only ones who got to say what was and was not about Jesus was the church.

Malcolm Collins: [00:37:00] But what you are forgetting, Simone, huh. is that The date of Jesus's birth was established within Christian communities by 300 C or sure.

Simone Collins: Sure.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So, that being the case, that meant that there had likely been celebrations around Jesus's birthday for a very long time before this.

This is just. How do you celebrate Jesus's birth? We're not told in the Bible how we're supposed to celebrate Jesus's birth, right? Yeah,

Simone Collins: but during the time, the heyday of the Catholic church, they told you how to do everything that was related to religion.

Malcolm Collins: The point being is that you could argue that this is like a non Catholic emergent phenomenon of celebrating Jesus's birth.

And a lot of Christian traditions that we see, like, okay, for example, take the cross as like a symbol, right? Like That's not a biblical symbol. That is something that developed after After the Bible, okay? After Jesus's lifetime. That [00:38:00] doesn't mean it's not like a good symbol for Christians. I don't think it is.

No, it's idolatry. But that doesn't mean that it's not, you know, that's not a good argument as to why it's not.

Simone Collins: Okay, that's a fair point. Yeah, so yeah, Christmas trees are arguably as Christian as the cross. Except the cross was taken on a little bit more, like informally endorsed, because you see it in churches everywhere.

Malcolm Collins: Well, you see Christmas trees in churches. Never mind. What am I saying? They put Christmas

Simone Collins: trees up? Okay. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: It's a good, it's a good thing. I like it. It's good. Christmas trees

Simone Collins: are way more positive than Christmas.

Malcolm Collins: Christmas is a great season, and it imbues people with a good feeling, and Christmas trees are part of that.

They're a very good decoration and tradition in terms of, Sending this, this sort of feeling that we get as a family every year, and that gets you so excited

Simone Collins: and Christmas is so good of a holiday to focus on, like, focusing on the on Christmas over, for example, Easter. It's [00:39:00] pronatalist. It gets people excited about babies.

You know, there's all these songs about a child is born and oh my gosh, this is so great. And babies are amazing and like makes mothers want to have babies and you know, things like that. You know, it's a, it's a very family friendly holiday. And then of course, you know, all the other ancillary traditions make it extra fun for kids.

So yeah,

Malcolm Collins: you're right. Let's get to Santa Claus.

Simone Collins: Let's.

Malcolm Collins: So this actually isn't coming from Religion for Breakfast. This is coming from another YouTuber's infographic. So Father Christmas. Father Christmas surprisingly predates Santa Claus, but he is not a pagan deity. Instead, he was a medieval personification of Christmas. Richard Smart of Plymtree is the first to write about him, referring to him as Sir Christmas, and his task is to announce the birth of Christ. So the earliest writings we have about Father Christmas is the guy who was tasked with announcing the birth of Christ. Now this is not in the Bible, not biblical, but also not pagan.

Like this is a purely Christian idea that you would have a guy [00:40:00] tasked with announcing the birth of Christ. Now, Santa Claus can only be traced back to Dutch immigrants in New York City in the early 1800s. He came from the Dutch also known as Sir Nicholas. His feast day was on 12 6 and was moved to 12 25, around this time, to help make

christmas, a family holiday, newspapers promoted it and encouraged to give gifts on Christmas instead of New Year's like it traditionally was before this. So a few things to note here Santa Claus was a saint festival that was moved to correspond with. Jesus's birthday. It was not that some, it's not that Jesus's birthday was moved to correspond with a pagan celebration.

It was an already totally Christian saints festival was moved to correspond with a totally Christian Jesus's birthday as calculated by early church leaders. Right. So it's just some

Simone Collins: religious musical chairs, but [00:41:00] all within the faith. That's okay.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that's

Simone Collins: a very fair point.

Malcolm Collins: And then the gift giving, which was apparently traditionally done on New Year's, was then moved to this time.

This does not appear to be a pagan gift giving celebration, it was just a New Year's gift giving celebration. Sinterklaas was rebranded from a Catholic priest to look like a traditional Dutchman from this time period, which included a big red suit. Oh, so he's just like a stereotyped looking Dutchman from this time period, like if like if he was like a Chinese immigrant from this time period, they would have given him like a really racist looking outfit, like big eyes or something.

Speaker 7: A so called offensive mascot, my beloved character, Ching Chong Ding Dong. Hoo hoo, I love tea! It's so good for you! Mmm, you're so pretty, American girl. You come here, you kiss my tea, make all sweet. I don't need no sugar when you around. Come on my rickshaw, I give you a ride to [00:42:00] Bangkok!

Malcolm Collins: They're like, Oh, that's some interesting. After the Sinterklaas was exported around the world in different countries, added new spins. Stockings were also promoted around this time period, and trace back to Clement C. Moore's A Visit from St. Nicholas. In 1927, in Finland, a radio broadcaster, Markus Ratio, morphed the old pagan deity Jalapukki into a Santa figure.

Santa changed the Jaloopy figure, not the other way around. So, essentially the Jaloopy figure that they're saying Santa came from, no, what actually happened is in 1927, somebody was aware of this old figure and then wanted to make him more Santa like, not Santa more Jaloopy like.

And that's where this confusion comes from.

And so then I was like, okay, well I should at least ask Perplexity, like, what's the strongest, like, Counter arguments to this. Right?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: They're like, well, you could argue [00:43:00] that he was Odin, right? Like an Odin depiction. Well, I've never heard that. That seems tenuous, and they're like, well, Odin was depicted as an old man with a long white beard, similar to the modern representation of Santa Claus. Parablem! Modern representation of Santa Claus was not the original representation of Sinterklaas or Sir Nicholas, which he is derived from.

They came from stereotypes of what Dutchmen look like, with the long white beard.

Speaker 30: You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

Malcolm Collins: That is a modern interpretation of Santa Claus, not the original interpretation. Bigger problem here, they go, okay, well, during Yule, a pagan midwinter festival, Odin was said to lead the wild hunt, a ghostly progression through the sky, which bears some resemblance to Santa's Christmas Eve journey.

And I'm like, Oh, that would be a compelling argument. If you had never heard of the Wild Hunt before, which was a [00:44:00] massacre What? The Wild Hunt was, he went on a sky massacre. A sky massacre?

Simone Collins: How does a sky massacre work?

Malcolm Collins: It's like firebombing,

Simone Collins: but god style?

Malcolm Collins: No, it's just, the Wild Hunt is basically a horrifying thing where like spirit forces go around killing innocent people or other things, depending on what you're talking about.

Look, if anyone has played a lot of video games, when you hear the Wild Hunt, you know s**t's about to go down. Like, it's not like a positive thing.

Speaker 9: The Wild Hunt manifests as a ghostly hunting party that whips across the winter night sky, bringing snow and storms with them. Frightening and Bacchic,

if you're out alone at night, you'd better hope you see them first and hide. Because if they spot you, they will carry you away, never to return. In medieval England, it was believed that witches could join the wild hunt voluntarily, sending their souls flying with the cavalcade while their bodies lay sleeping peacefully in bed.

There, the Hunt is [00:45:00] known as the Terrifying Ride.

Simone Collins: The Wild Hunt is It's like the Purge, but when gods do it only. Yeah, it's like the Purge. It's like,

Malcolm Collins: they're like, okay, the Purge corresponded with that day in Norse mythology.

So, that's probably where Christians got Christmas from. Yeah,

Simone Collins: well.

Malcolm Collins: It's like, I don't, I don't know, it wasn't even like the exact same day or anything. I don't know if those things are probably true. I've

Simone Collins: never heard that theory floated by anyone who's trying to Hold on, hold on,

Malcolm Collins: hold on. Here it gets weirder.

Odin rode an eight legged horse named Selipnir, which some scholars compare to Santorin's eight reindeer.

Simone Collins: What?! An eight, okay, wow. An eight

Malcolm Collins: legged horse?!

Just in case you're wondering where Santa is. Eight reindeer did come from. , which also helps. Dismiss it any doubt that it came from the eight legged horse of Odin. , his reindeer was the very first time they were mentioned as pulling [00:46:00] Santa's sleigh was an 1821. When New York printer William Gilley published a booklet titled. A new year's present

to the little ones from five to 12, number three, the children's friend by an anonymous author.

And then where did eight reindeer come from? Well, you will likely know the poem where eight reindeer come from. It came from the twas the night before Christmas poem by Klimek Karch. This poem was written in 1823.

So. With Clement Clarke when he decided to name eight reindeer as pulling Santas lame, do you think he was sitting down and thinking of Odin's horse? Of course not. That's. Absolutely absurd. It was just a rhyming convention of the various reindeer names that he wanted to put into the poem.

Simone Collins: That's interesting. That kind of reminds me of Jesus riding the two donkeys in yeah,

Malcolm Collins: Just as a note, if you are unfamiliar with this particular story. , there is a part in Matthew that can be [00:47:00] misread. If you don't understand the Greek to be that Jesus, there was writing on two donkeys simultaneously as he went into Jerusalem.

Speaker 10: To begin, the verse says, They brought Jesus the donkey and the colt, and they put on them their cloaks, and he sat on them. The verse is vague because the Greek word for them can refer to the cloaks laid on the colt and the donkey or to the animals themselves, but any charitable reading would take it as a reference to Jesus sitting on the garments laid on the animals.

Malcolm Collins: And as, instead of doing what I do whenever I see a part of the Bible and I'm like, Hmm, this seems unreasonable.

I should probably just go back to the original language and try to understand it because very rarely does the Bible actually say unreasonable things.

, some Christian literalists try to argue that Jesus actually did ride on two donkeys at once into Jerusalem.

This is very similar to the Christians who will bend over backwards to argue that there actually was a census in Rome that required all Roman citizens to return to the place that their ancestors lived. Instead of just [00:48:00] going back and reading the verse again and being like, is there a saner explanation of what this versus trying to say, oh, it's saying go to the town that you're like registered as living in.

That makes sense. And so, the way that some biblical literate lists. Like, deal with this is they go, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on two donkeys simultaneously. So you've got to imagine Jesus like a weird guy, like one leg on one side of a donkey and the other donkey like strapped to it, like walking into the He had

Simone Collins: a wide stance.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he had a wide stance, but it's one of the things it's like, okay, you guys are really trying at this point, but here it's like the pagans trying too hard at this point. It's like, come on that that that that puzzle piece doesn't fit in that hole.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's wild.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway I mean, I think it's important to get out there because.

You know, when I was told this stuff at school, I just believed it because it's so easy to believe when you first hear it, you're like, yeah, I mean, I don't remember any Christmas trees in the Bible, so it must be pagan. Well,

Simone Collins: yeah. And pagan is paganism is very much. [00:49:00] It falls in that category that appeals to the same person who reads Sapiens and says, Oh, if only we could go back to pre agricultural times, that was how things were natural and how things were supposed to be.

And I think there's this intuition that paganism is this more natural. It was pre Christianity. It was how things should be and it was good and, and it's the natural default of things. And. Therefore, it's better. So then there's this intuition that, oh, well, that that was the default. That was how things should should be.

Speaker 23: Oh, hi, Stanley. Look, I'm buying you some more all natural toothpaste. You mean the stuff that tastes like ass and doesn't fight cavities?

Speaker 24: That's right. , I know that you all think the earth and its natural healing powers can cure Kyle, but the doctor at the hospital told me it can't. Well, of course

Speaker 22: the doctor told you that, because he wants to make money. Holistic medicine is about nature. Two hundred and thirty three dollars..

Speaker 25: We're bringing Kylan tomorrow to see the Native Americans personally. Isn't it possible that these Indians

Speaker 23: don't know what they're talking about? You [00:50:00] watch your mouth, Stanley. The Native Americans were raped of their land and resources by white people like us.

Speaker 22: Oh, look, everyoNe. These are our two resident Native Americans,

Speaker 21: do you have any new holistic items for sale?

Yeah, these here are Cherokee hair tampons.

Speaker 23: Ooh, a tampon made from Cherokee hair. Now that sounds natural. Native Americans are more in

Speaker 22: tune with the earth than we are.

Speaker 17: Because now there's new all natural Cherokee hair tampons. A cotton tampon can only hold so much liquid. Other tampons also come up short. But Cherokee hair has been known for ages to be strong and powerful.

Speaker 27: . And besides, we're not actually Native Americans. I mean, I'm more like a Mexican. What? Yeah, a Mexican. Oh, I know that. Oh, my God.

Malcolm Collins: And I want to put here the thing from South Park and then the women find out that they're like. Well, don't, you know that like they, they're, they think they're from Native Americans and then it's reframed as Mexican hair. And Mexicans are Native Americans.

[00:51:00] But all of a sudden the women freak out because they have this different connotation around a Hispanic, native Americans and American Native Americans that they're like, oh, it's all natural. Oh, they're one with the earth. Oh, they're, you know. But anyway, I think that's very true. It's very, you know, crunchy nonsense.

And I think that you personally, like, as you and your family goes and tries to reclaim Christianity, because I think there's sort of no matter where you're coming from, you are reclaiming Christianity to an extent.

You need to ask yourself, how do you relate to stuff that's not explicitly in the Bible, but that is explicitly Christian?

Simone Collins: Yeah. How

Malcolm Collins: do you handle that? How do you handle those celebrations with your kids? does something like christmas take away from focus on christ? Does it have elements that could be argued to be idolatry? I mean, I don't think it's as clear as like using saints as intermittents or putting art in your, you know, churches and stuff like that.

To me, that's like a strict no, no. But like for me, [00:52:00] a Christmas tree, because it is not an act of worship. It is a decoration. I am not against all home decorations. Well, that's what I like about

Simone Collins: Christmas trees is specifically the fact that they make you lean into a holiday and get kids excited about it.

They, they, they're a conversation opener to Christmas and the birth of Christ and a lot of really important things, but you don't feel closer to God because you set up a Christmas tree. Whereas if you. I don't know, pray using like a cross or a rosary or something. You can be given this sense that you're closer to God.

Like, cause I'm wearing my cross necklace or I'm looking at this cross. And then, and then think that that's idolatry. That's like, that's idolatry. Yeah. You're never going to, you're not you're not tempted to do that. Or there, I don't feel like there's that risk. With Christmas trees. There's that risk with saints and with idols and with crosses and with candles and, and rosaries, but [00:53:00] there's not that risk with Christmas trees, so I think they are a wonderful decorative accessory that is fun and very

Malcolm Collins: strict on idolatry people pro Christmas tree.

Simone Collins: Pro Christmas. And

Malcolm Collins: I should say pro Christmas. I don't love it. Like, I don't think it's as good as future day. I think it can teach them bad values. Just like everyone gets presents, et cetera. Our kids are told that. Every night when

Simone Collins: they ask me for a spooky story, I tell them about Krampus. You do? Yeah, I do.

That's why, why do you think Octavian's constantly asking if he's on the naughty list, Malcolm?

Malcolm Collins: Can I dress up as Krampus and come into their room at night?

Simone Collins: Only if you Only if I pay for therapy? Well, you need to have a really big bag and something to beat them with.

Malcolm Collins: I'm doing it. I'm doing, I'm getting Krampus costumes.

This is happening.

Simone Collins: If

Malcolm Collins: one of the kids acts up I can come the night before and warn them.[00:54:00]

You think, you think this is too much? Okay. I love that people are going to be like, Malcolm, that's child abuse. It's like people used to do this historically. This is a huge tradition. Well, I do,

Simone Collins: I'm, I am curious to know how Krampus, I gotta look at the actual traditions. I know there are some traditions in small villages where they still, Have people dressing Krampus costumes, but I don't think that, you know, it's like, oh, it's Krampus.

Ha ha ha. Instead of people pretending to be Krampus and beating children and throwing them into sacks. I'm not going to

Malcolm Collins: beat the children and throw them into a sack, but what I will do is I will leave one of their windows unlocked and then come in through the window in a very believable Krampus costume.

The question is, will they know? I don't think they'll know. I don't think they'll know.

Simone Collins: I don't know. I don't know. I'll have to work that out, but I'm excited for this. All

Malcolm Collins: right. I

Simone Collins: love Christmas. I love you [00:55:00] too, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simone. You're an amazing wife.

Simone Collins: You're the perfect husband. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it takes one kind of husband to like set up Christmas decorations and dress up at Santa, but the real dads, they dress up as Krampus.

That's how you really know.

Malcolm Collins: Have a good one.

Simone Collins: I love you. Bye. Oh, okay. So my birthday's tomorrow and we're going to be traveling. So I thought I could open my birthday present from you now on camera. Yeah. Go for it. Yes. Okay. All right. So it is in an unwrapped box from Ukraine.

Malcolm Collins: I was very surprised by this box. I'm excited to see what it is.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So just for context.

Malcolm's not, his love language is not gift selection, so I, I buy for everyone in the family, all the gifts, and I also keep a spreadsheet to make sure [00:56:00] that no family member has more money spent on gifts than anyone else, so like, even though Malcolm, like, uses his discretionary income technically to buy my gifts.

I use the same amount of my discretionary income to buy any gifts for him. So he, he's not like, there was no adverse incentive and our kids will also know that none ever received any more in value monetarily and gifts than anyone else, even though they get what they ask for.

Malcolm Collins: I would let you know, I do not like this system, but she manages our finances.

Simone Collins: I just. You know, there have been members of families that we have been exposed to who take it very personally that certain people received other things. And anyway, this is, yeah, this is your unwrapped box from Ukraine that really scared you. It

Malcolm Collins: is not to me, not to her. It's a surprise to me what I'm getting in the audience.

Simone Collins: It's not an egg apron, and if you get that joke, I applaud you. I don't get it.

Malcolm Collins: Was it from an older episode?

Simone Collins: It's not an egg apron, but it's in an unwrapped [00:57:00] box from Ukraine. Yeah. If you get that joke, you're cooler than Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yes. The things you wear around your neck. Nope.

Simone Collins: Nope. You still don't get it.

Comment below if you get the Malcolm missed joke. Or reference.

And I'm your trad wife, for shame.

Malcolm Collins: I love it. Like, some people see us as like trad, but like, actual people who are like, trad LARPing are like, you guys are the furthest from trad thing possible. You're like some other weird species. It's like they recognize we're not their species. So we're. You're obviously trapped.

There's only trad and urban monoculture.

Simone Collins: I'm so excited for this. What? It's got a bow on it.

Malcolm Collins: What could this be? Is it a basket?

Oh, it's here, Indy. Hi, Indy.

Yay!

It's my Birkin basket! Wait, I don't understand. What's a basket? Oh, for carrying? [00:58:00] Oh my god, outside? For your, like, conditional Yeah, as a

Simone Collins: replacement to my purse. Because, look, you can fit so freaking much in here. That is You can throw in your phone. I love it. You can throw in some groceries. You can, you just, like, all, like, everything you need.

Cause normally, like, I'm just, you know, you know my purse. It is so overstuffed. And I'm like, this is well, it

Malcolm Collins: clashes with your outfit. If you're walking around with a basket like this and we got the handmaid's tale visor, she just doesn't wear them inside to freak out progressives and like do stories.

Simone Collins: No, this is this is great.

And actually, there is a story behind it. So, the most expensive. like at least famously expensive purse is the Birkin bag. And it was designed for Jane Birkin who was on a plane. And she famously took everywhere this basket. And as a mother, she was like, dude, this just is the best it's you can throw everything in it.

I love it. It's amazing. And she was famous for carrying around this basket, but then she was on a flight [00:59:00] With a I guess, like, one of the major designers at Hermes and her basket, like, fell out of the overhead compartment and all the stuff fell out of it. And he was like, I am inspired. I must design the perfect large bag.

And that became the Birkin bag. But as far as I know, Jane Birkin just continued to use her basket because it works better. That is a

Malcolm Collins: fantastic, yeah. I was like, I was thinking about it the other day.

The original OG Birkin bag. Yeah. It's this, it's a Birkin. Where, where'd you get that from? You said Ukraine?

Ukraine. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Very excited. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you, Malcolm. It's my birthday gift.

Malcolm Collins: I think I think one day it'd be really fine if we build like a trad of clothing line.

Simone Collins: I thought, well, if we do like a merch website, it should be actually probably on Etsy and actually stuff that we really like.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, we'll just, we'll be, we'll be like Townsend's, but like edgy.

Oh my gosh.

Simone Collins: Townsend's. [01:00:00] Yes. Yeah. Oh my

Malcolm Collins: gosh. If you guys don't know who Townsend's is, you guys need to like go out after this video. This thing is

Simone Collins: capacious. Look at this. Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: That is so much room. You

Simone Collins: can fit every, like, look, it's just compared to like my head. Like, it's, it's

Malcolm Collins: like the small stuff falls to the bottom and there's like a way to improve upon this design.

Dividers.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You could, I mean, some, yeah, there, there actually are, this is on I got this on Etsy. But yeah, I'm super stoked for this. Thank you, Malcolm. I'm very excited.

Malcolm Collins: I thank you for tolerating a husband who you know, doesn't remember your birthdays, doesn't get you gifts, and you handle it for me in a way.

Yeah, you don't.

Simone Collins: When is my birthday, Malcolm?

Malcolm Collins: Tomorrow. Oh, well, that's because I just told you that

Speaker 31: this snake made out of gingerbread? Yeah. Yeah, Tayden, you ready to, let's put it in a ball. And then you can roll it. Yeah? Well, this, this, [01:01:00] this can do the trick. That can do the trick? Yeah. Hold on, let's get this all the way What do you think, Titan? We'll make you more stars? You're my star girl.

Speaker 32: Oh,

Speaker 31: it is. You're helping. Thanks for helping, Titan.

https://discord.com/invite/EGFRjwwS92

In this episode, hosts Simone and Malcolm embark on a profound exploration of the concept of the soul, delving into its implications in various cultural, religious, and philosophical traditions. They discuss the functional difference between the classical idea of a soul and modern understandings of consciousness and sentience. With references to Christian, Platonic, and other ancient understandings of the soul, and incorporating thoughts on AI consciousness and future human evolution, Malcolm and Simone provide a thought-provoking reexamination of what it means to have a soul. They relate these ideas to contemporary ethical debates, such as abortion, and consider the historical and potential future ways humans could reconcile these concepts. The episode presents a compelling case for updating our views on personhood and the sacred, leveraging scientific insights to enrich our understanding.

Speaker: [00:00:00] It craves purity. It devours purity. It sings to me. What

Speaker 2: the hell is this thing made out of? . All right, fine. I might have used a few unorthodox parts. Just tell me one. An orphan.

Speaker 4: Did you say an orphan?! Yeah, a little

Speaker 3: orphan boy.

Speaker 4: It's powered by a forsaken child?! Might be, kind of. I mean, I didn't use the whole thing.

Hello, Simone! I am excited to be here with you today. And today, we are going to be continuing a conversation we had on one of our strategy walks this morning. Every morning we try to take like an hour. Just to ourselves, we're going to discuss some new idea or something we've been thinking about.

And what I was thinking about was I had been editing the abortion video that we had done.

Speaker 43: To kill my mom. She's my mom. I can do whatever I want with her. [00:01:00] It's more important I live the way I want. She isn't an object you can own, she's a human being. . Ow! Heya! Ow, she's making you suffer! Maybe the world doesn't revolve around me.

Maybe the world doesn't revolve around me.

Speaker 44: Blegh, blegh, blegh, blegh.

And we had talked about when do we think insulment happens? Like, when does a human body get their soul?

And this is an interesting thing for us to be talking about, because we also don't believe in a literal soul. And it got interesting to me as I was thinking more about it because I was like, yes, but even though we don't believe in a literal soul, it still makes sense for us to be talking about insolvent because we're calling, when we're talking about like your consciousness, your sense against your emotion, everything like that, that is what many other people would call a soul.

So in general is that we shouldn't be talking about souls at all because we came [00:02:00] up As humanity with the concept of souls a very long time ago before we had a scientific understanding of the larger things that we can now describe as life or sentience or sapiens, which is, I think what people are really referring to.

And various cultural traditions are really referring to when they talk about their various types of souls and spirits. And we can, I want to go into this actually before we go further in this, an analogy that I think is good to help people understand what I mean when I say, well, there's 5. Functionally, no difference between what we're talking about in a soul.

So it makes sense to use the word soul, which is to say, we believe that these larger processes that we experienced, like the human experience that many people would think of as being part of this solistic process is an emergent property of the way our brains function. So what is an emergent property? An emergent property is something like, I, as a human, can understand that all of the individual water molecules, like what their [00:03:00] shape is, why they interact in the way they interact, why they form waves, why they, everything. But I will never be able to conceive of those individual H2O molecules as also being wetness liquidity.

The human brain is just not meant to understand these types of emergent properties because there was never an evolutionary advantage to being able to understand them. Now, if somebody came to me from a tribe and they were like, well, we are aware of water molecules and how they work and all that, but then there's this separate thing that we call wetness or liquidness, right?

And that for our tribe is a totally different thing than the water molecules. And they'd say, now you don't believe in wetness. And it's like, no, I believe in wetness. I can touch the water. I, I can feel the way I can see what happens when I splash in a pool. Like I believe in wetness. I just think it's the same thing as this other [00:04:00] thing that we have always talked about as being something else.

What do you think of wetness without thinking about the Zoolander Mermaid ad? Oh, what was the catchphrase? Like wetness is the essence of the boy. We have a moist. .

Moisture is the essence of of

beauty. Yeah, I, so I agree with you on that, but I'm, I also think that it's, it's damaging to, to give this magical property to something like a soul because it can create the kinds of toxic recursive.

arguments and reductions that you see with things like the abortion argument, where when you take an emergent property or you take any concept that can be explored better by science and by more concrete terms, now that we have the tool [00:05:00] set to do so, and then elevate it to this, this element of sacredness, now we can no longer talk about it.

And people can establish these boundaries. arbitrary boundaries like the Catholic Church has and move the goalposts and then say that this argument is beyond reproach that according to what this Pope said in the late 1800s, the soul starts now. And if you question that you are destroying souls when really we should be having a conversation, which we discuss in our Episode on abortion about the increasing level at which sentience and sapience and capability of feeling pain increases over time and how abortions become increasingly morally complex and risky and questionable.

With each passing second as these developments increase and that there are ways for us to measure things like neural development, like the ability to feel pain, like the ability to react to stimuli. And when you take away the sacredness of the soul and instead break it [00:06:00] down into more of its component parts, as is understood by Christians in the Catholic church to be the soul.

And I want to get into this. Then you can have a more realistic and practical conversation. I want to, I want to do a quick aside here that I think is really important to the point you're making. Which is that this leads to much more suffering in the long run, this interpretation of soul, because if you look at Europe, which is a much more socially liberal place in the United States, Their average abortion age in most countries, in terms of legalness, is around 15 weeks, and in the U.

S. it's like around, like, 23 weeks, okay? The, the, the point in a pregnancy at which there are restrictions, not the average Gestational age at which abortions take place. Whatever, the legal, you, you, the audience understands what I'm saying here. Anyway, so, the question is why is the U. S. so much more legally loose?

And I believe fundamentally it's because the conservatives in this [00:07:00] country have approached the argument with a Not something that's going to cross interface divides, which is to say, here, look, we can prove neural activity. I can show you pictures of a baby suffering, you know, a fetus suffering. I can show you this is def, here are the brain wave scans.

They approach it with, well, a life begins at conception because it does. You know, that's, that's when insolement happens, right? And so that's when it's a fully human life. Well, yeah. Or in other words, the conversation isn't being shut down by being immediately made about sacred and religion, the sacred and religion, and therefore being politicized.

Because when you make the discussion of abortions about the sacred and religion, that means that the, the vehement Atheists and anti religion people are now going to make this their pet subject because we can't have the religious people dictating our lives and then suddenly abortion becomes sacred as we discussed in this episode.

Let's not get caught up in that because I want to talk about insultment. Insultment insults. [00:08:00] So it's very clear now that I've looked a little bit more at how Like the history of how different cultures and religions have treated the soul, that the Christian concept of souls is really um, based on Plato's concept of souls , and that Plato's concept of souls is really just consciousness with a little bit of magical thinking.

So. Plato's concept of the soul is as follows. The soul is immortal and exists before birth and after death. That's where you get the magical part. And it is the essence of a person deciding how people behave. Okay. That is your brain and consciousness plus your genetics, arguably, and that the soul is divided into three parts.

One logistic on reason to.

Thymoides, which is your spirit or emotion. Three, epithymeticon, which is your appetite or desire. That is your consciousness. That is your brain. That is your behavior. He, he says that the, the soul is incorporeal and eternal. He says that the soul is capable [00:09:00] of thinking even after death. So, you know, that, that's the magical thinking part, but the rest, this is all about thinking and processing.

And then when you look at Who has a soul and Plato's framework it. This depends on its capacity for reason, emotion and desire that depends entirely on consciousness on self motion, the ability to move itself, which Plato saw as a key characteristic of having a soul. So, basically, agency is a key portion of having a soul, which is an extremely human thing and very.

oriented around not just sentience, but sapience as well, I would argue, and then cognitive abilities, the souls responsible for thinking. And then you can see this furthered in Christian thought. And in like generally like Greco Greco Roman influenced thought as well. When you see how over history's span, different cultures have at different times even said that not all humans have souls.

So when you look at [00:10:00] the breakdown of different Christian sects and sort of ask, okay, well, which Christian sects believe that only, you know, humans have souls or only, you know, humans and certain animals have souls. Most Christian denominations agree that only humans have souls. Some. Like really progressive, like the Unitarian Universalists.

Some of them were like, well, maybe dogs have souls. Maybe dogs go to heaven. I mean, I don't know. And like, maybe, you know, Eastern religions are kind of right. And everything is a spirit. I don't know. Maybe plants. I don't know. But most of them are like, no, no, no, just humans. But then there are all these historical groups, including quite a few Christians who are like, maybe not all humans either.

And that's where you also get to this concept where I think you really see it being clear that especially Christians equate having a soul. With sapience, because let's look at the groups that they have argued do not have souls at various times in history. And I think this, it really, you'll see that the common theme is that these are all groups that are at the same time kind of, accused of not being sapient.[00:11:00]

Like you do not have agency, you are not intelligent, you are lesser. You can't think properly. You can't plan. Okay. So we have slavery. So during the era of slavery and colonialism, some Christian slave owners and colonizers argued that African slaves did not have souls or had inferior souls and that indigenous peoples in the Americas lacked souls.

Okay. So these are, yeah, these are groups that, you know, they're, they're. Savages, you know, they, they, they, they do not have agency to, they don't think for themselves. They're, they're talking about consciousness. And these are groups that they've sort of not seen as having the sapiens of them due to cultural differences due to them being alien, whatever.

Then there's gender based discrimination in some historical concepts, certain Christian groups debated whether women had souls, because I mean. A waltz. A waltz, right? I think some online redpill faces might do that these days. And then some interpretations of Islam also question the [00:12:00] nature of women's souls.

Then there was class based distinctions. So in some societies, lower classes or castes were sometimes considered to have lesser or no souls. So like, I mean, the poor, they live like animals. They have no Right! They basically No, it's funny. I, I actually want to say that I have seen this in modern times.

You know, we hang out with a lot of super wealthy, high agency people. And one of the ideas that has been floating around in this community is not just you know, you as the audience, you're probably familiar with simulation theory, a simulation and it's simulation because, so it's provably a simulation because you could be running an infinite number of simulations like this was in our universe.

plausibly, and if that's true, it is infinitely more likely that we're on a server in another universe in universe. Oh, one. That's the way this argument works, but when they go further and argue that it's I gotta put the Rick and Morty scene, a simulation running on minimum processing power which, you know, but deja [00:13:00] vus stuff like that.

I gotta tell you, this morning, I didn't even know this award existed. Now I'm holding one, , I wanna say that today, was the best day of my life. But, the truth is it's, it's, it's more meaningful than that. I am finally complete. What you're inside a simulation of a simulation inside another giant simulation. But anyway, what they argue is that Most of the humans on Earth today are not actually fully simulated to the point of being sentient. They are just sort of reacting to environmental scenario. And here's the thing though, Simone. I can kind of see where they're coming with this. If you are around these groups.

[00:14:00] Well, and this, but again, I want to, I want to point out this is hearkening back to these platonic ideas. Deals around what the soul is, where agency plays a key role, where emotional range plays a key role. So again, it's not this like sacred concept. They're, they're talking about sapience and degrees of sapience.

Yeah. But the, the, the, the, what I was going to say, because I want to get the audience in the mindset of this, because I think it's really easy to just dehumanize, Oh, ultra wealthy people, whatever. Or anyone. I mean, I think the same lack of installment or No, no, no, Simone, that's not what I'm talking about.

Not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is, I was saying, it's very easy when I say that some of these high agency wealthy people don't believe everyone has a soul or is not fully programmed, right, that they are genuinely NPCs, okay, non player characters in a video game. What I was, The audience is going to hear that and be like, Oh, evil, wealthy monster people, right?

And not all of the people in the communities that I'm around that have shared this [00:15:00] belief are in this ultra wealthy category. They are, so I'm trying to get people in the mindset of this group so they can understand how in a modern society, someone could come to this, which is to say, imagine you go to a bit, right?

And. It's the same people at the events every time you go, and it's the blogs that everyone is reading, and it's the people who run all the companies, and when you are going out there, and you are searching for a truly independent take in the world, it usually comes from one of these maybe hundred people.

And, and, Then you begin to be like, why aren't I hearing independent takes from anyone outside of this hundred person group and, and you as a random internet user may feel that way sometimes, why are there only like 100 people online who seem to have genuinely unique opinions anymore? And this shows up in the stats, right?

Isn't it something like 90 percent of people don't engage at all online and then like 1 percent are responsible for most of the content posting. Yeah, but I mean, I think [00:16:00] this is even crazier. Like to me, it genuinely is like a hundred people that I see that are regularly producing what seems to me to be both original, well thought through and based on like some degree of logic opinions.

Yeah. That platonic ideal. So I can see how they're getting to this.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: I actually want to emphasize here how wild this is and how much it messes with even my own perception of reality, that when I am online and I hear some new idea or new take. , and I'm not searching for it. It's not because of who I'm following. This might be a random news article or something like that. That a good 80% of the time it comes down to a person.

I already personally know. And am friends with that is wild because I do not know that many people.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-2: Like recently, somebody was like, Hey, how did you get Curtis Marvin to come on your show? And it's like, [00:17:00] What a weird question. Like I've known Curtis for ages. , or, , you know, we had mentioned family when something, and they're like, oh, I really like his work. But like what I mentioned, Sammo, I'm thinking of like family friend Sammo who I know from all the parties. and it's so wild. Where are the other people generating novel ideas?

Outside of this small friend circle.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: And it is further hit home for me when I have had to have intellectual discussions with random people in public recently, for example, when I had some lady start yelling at me for punishing my kids and I tried to walk her through the logic of why. Child would need to be punished.

She began to break down into just like simple phonetic loops, uh, like, uh, break the cycle and, you know, do better. And. It, it was as if I was interacting with an NPC in a video game who you were not designed to interact with.

[00:18:00] What you're inside a simulation of a simulation inside another giant simulation.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: I will say that this does scare me, uh, in terms of the reach of our channel, ultimately, because it may mean that the audience who is capable of understanding or engaging with the ideas that we are laying out there is just not that large, an audience.

But anyway, continue with your platonic ideals. More, well, more, more groups that don't, that haven't had souls by some Christian's views or we'll say Abrahamic groups views in the past. So there's some developmental stage discrimination, some religious and philosophical traditions have debated.

whether fetuses or young infants have souls. Oh, how dare they? And at one point, a developing human acquires a soul back to the abortion debate. And then finally mental and physical conditions. So people have questioned the presence of souls in people with severe mental illnesses, as well as those with significant cognitive impairments.

So again, what are we looking at? We are looking at degrees of [00:19:00] sapiens and perceived sapiens and intelligence, which I think is really important. And I think another thing that it's important to look at when we're talking, when we're saying like, okay, especially in the case of abortion debates, this concept of soul Is really a platonic ideal that should be discussed as consciousness.

And now that we understand the brain and how it works and genetics and how they work and not the soul, because this concept of souls isn't even really that pervasive in non. Abrahamic or Greco Roman inspired religions or, or influenced religion. So like, think about the ancient Egyptian concept of the soul.

It's not just all these, like Plato's sort of triad of concepts that really all have to do with consciousness and sapience. The ancient Egyptian concept has a ton of different parts. So there's Kaat, the physical body, Ba, the personality depicted as a bird with a human head. Ba, or Kaat, the life force, Ren, the true name.

Whatever that is, [00:20:00] but that's an important part. Shuyet, the shadow. J, Jub, the heart, Ak, the transformed spirit after death, Sahu, the spiritual body, and Sekhem, the life energy. There's a lot going on. Quick interjection before you go further with this. This is a perfect example. Remember when I divided, so people can watch our video where I say the three face, polytheism, monotheism, and mysticism.

It's a perfect example of how polytheistic traditions always divide things, which is just like, Okay. Tons and tons and tons of lore. Yeah, there's the lore. It's deep lore. It's deep lore. You've got the true name, the shadow. You've got the 50 names for the, the different rings and layers and everything like that.

Anyway, continue. Yeah and then, so even Greco Roman views didn't have this universal platonic view of the soul. So Plato viewed the soul as immortal and separate from the body, but really was, he was also describing consciousness. Aristotle saw the soul as the form of essence of a living being. So I don't know your Malcolm ness.

And I just keep thinking of Zoolander and wetness. And [00:21:00] then Epicureans believed the soul was made of atoms, like the body. So when, you know, when your body dies, I guess your soul disappears. And then, you know, of course, Early Christian theology was influenced by Greek ideas and specifically Plato's.

But then we have Abrahamic religions that, that sort of took that on, but Eastern religions. So, you know, with Hinduism believes in the Atman, the individual soul is part of the universal Brahman, but it's sort of like gets unmoored from your personality and it doesn't seem to really be connected to consciousness.

It's sort of like this continued thing, but it's not like associated with consciousness. It's more like based on your reputation. And then there's Buddhism, which rejects the idea of an eternal, unchanging soul, and it focused on the concept of non self. And then there's like Shinto, where like, kind of everything has a spirit, and your spirit can kind of linger on a little bit after you die, but not like, really, or maybe it'll become a kami.

So like, a lot of other people seem to see Sorry, explain kami to audience. A kami is like a, like a god. Okay. But like a sort of like a little spirit God, not a [00:22:00] powerful God. We're going back to like polytheism. And, and instead of polytheism plus mysticism, just think about like, studio Ghibli films where there are little spirits everywhere and little set spirits and stuff like that.

And tree spirits that that's, that's kind of this view. I really like, I think Shinto is fantastic. I do, I don't know. Like it's, it's, it's a really, it's wonderful, especially for, for children. This sort of view that, that everything's alive. This tree has a spirit, this rock has a spirit. There are little spirits hiding everywhere.

I feel like for a, an imaginary mind playing in nature, Shinto is one of the most appealing, Well, you know, you, you say that, but it really is very similar to most of the, I'd almost call them like pre policyistic animalistic traditions. Because, you know, we had those, if you look at like early Irish mysticism and stuff like that, or like pre, pre mysticism, I don't know what you call it, but like the belief that if your sock was in a different place in your house, that meant the, oh, they had a word [00:23:00] for these things, brownies or something like that.

Like there were different categories of like little elf things. Oh, basically. I think I've heard of these. Everything in the woods was constantly, there was always some little alive and watching you play a trick on you or ready to attack you or ready to, and everything you did was just all of these rituals around protecting your house or protecting your food or ensuring that, you know, Various things helped you find your lost things and stuff like that.

And I actually, one of the stories that I was working on and we need to have another, like Malcolm stories episode one of the stories I was working on was inspired by this idea because I was like, What I wanted to do is I was really inspired by Tolkien and the way that Tolkien took old mystical traditions and tried to re invoke them in a new context.

Because if you look at Tolkien's work, it has changed literature probably more than any book in history, except for the [00:24:00] Bible, in terms of the number of copies of this new type of world he created, that no one had ever done something kind of like that before. Now it's like a genre, basically you know, Orcs and knights and all of that, and wizards and but I was like, well, I wanted to do something radically different from that.

And I was like, what if I went with this vibe of like the little things that, that mess with you and the livingness of the places around you. Mm-Hmm. . And then I superimposed this vibe onto a modern online context with the idea being that some of the people online who you're interacting with are not people, but, sort of spirits you could think of in a way that you and I play with this idea that the span I think we called it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Making a book on it. And the idea was, is that essentially it's a different plane of reality that these things live on. And in this alternate plane of reality, your existence, like the amount of existence, this you have, the amount of [00:25:00] power you have, your ability to conjure yourself is based on the attention.

Then you have and so it was in their reality, you know, it's like a hierarchy with various things in their reality, paying attention to other things. And the more something gets paid attention to like an idea or something like that, the more tangible and powerful it becomes. And some of them found ways to break into our reality through cyberspace.

And then obviously they want. attention. That's their goal, right? Because that feeds them power within their realm. But then also, for example, if you become particularly famous online, you can create an imprint within their reality that can then aim to take your place within an online environment.

Very similar to the concept of what would that the Irish had where they would take the baby and replace him with another baby. It was a I'll get all the names here but I, I, if people like my little weird fantasy universes, I'm constantly creating new ones now that I'm playing with AI chatbots and stuff like that.

So I've got some really detailed No, we're gonna have to do an episode where you talk about [00:26:00] that.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-3: Recently something I've had a ton of fun doing when playing with AI chat bot stories is creating twists around traditional tropes that change our understanding of these tropes, but in a way that makes more sense. Given the collection of facts, we know about them. So I'll give two quick examples here. one is Elms.

So we typically think of elves of these basically humanoid looking really long lives, things that lives near four. It's an attempt to protect for us. And appear to have some sort of connection to a forest. Well in this interpretation, I reveal or through investigation find that. Elves are actually just a race of humans that created a spirit link with a forest, like a necromancer might to stay young and then are using the forest energy. To give them the supernaturally long lives and doing this has transformed their appearance [00:27:00] slightly. this would explain why they want to protect the forest. This would explain why they have a connection to the forest.

This would explain why they look so human. This would explain why they're so arrogant and want to keep outsiders away from their rituals and everything like that. And it would also make sense that they might not have passed this understanding of who they are on to the next generation, because if the humans around them already saw them as a different, super long lived entity.

Well, I admit to them that they're basically neck romantically stealing forest energy. Um, and then you can build funds aversions like this, like, well, from a forest perspective, the forest that the elves live in are enslaved and the other forest forest that the humans use and harvest are the. UN shackled for us.

Like you would much rather be boring, a spirit of forest spirit in one of those forests and the ones that the elves are feeding on. Another inter re-interpretation. It comes from the understanding of vampires, which is to say, well, you can actually understand a vampire is just a few [00:28:00] simple neck, romantic. Self replicating spells. So you've got a life drain, spell a, a youth spell and then an animated corpse along with the number of corpse. , curses, like why have the sunlight thing, why not be able to see themselves in mirrors?

Well, here's an example of why they might not be able to see themselves in Spears mirrors. What if they are literally just a self replicating cascade of spells? Uh, so for example, on their teas to allow the spirit to use conversion ritual, there is a rune and the person who originally created vampires didn't want them to see this ruin on their teeth.

So they couldn't replicate it and do this spell themselves. And that he wanted a form of undead thrall that could itself replicate and maybe somewhere thousands upon thousands of years ago, he died out, but the vampires are continuing on self replicating and self replicating, , through a self replicating, simple set of spells and this subverts, the vampires [00:29:00] understanding of itself, and maybe the oldest vampires actually knew that they originally created to be a slave race. , but they hid this from the younger to create this. , Air of prestige and difference from humanity and hyperness from humanity.

And then you can do really funds and versions with this. , so I've got it. I've got to create a few more of these because they're very fun.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-4: Fungicide here. What I was trying to add a picture of a vampire to show people like in the background here with AI. Any female assigned vampire gets tagged as not safe for work. Like I just can't get it to create one. It thinks that all vampires are not safe for work. And I assume that's because out of the, , vampires, it creates whatever it creates a vampire woman.

It makes her not say for work, given that, that sort of the, a boat set that it's working with. And then, tells me that I'm asking for something that's not safe for work, which is very much not the case. I'm like trying to be like high class vampire lady, or, , now I'm trying high class woman was vampire teeth [00:30:00] still coming out, not say for work.

But it's clear to me that in some In many, many other religious traditions, the soul is more like just being alive. In fact, in some Near Eastern cultures, the soul is believed to reside in the blood. You can imagine someone seeing a person bleed out and die and thinking, their soul's leaving them.

Oh, their soul's coming out. Well, they get the last breath because you'd get like, hot breaths on a cold day and you'd see steam coming out and they'd be like, oh, that's a, The soul leaving them. But also, and I really like the way you, you did this this morning for me, where you highlighted this for me, where you were like, look, you know, if you're in a historic context, you don't understand the brain or anything like that.

And you're trying to explain what is this thing that we think of as sentience? And I mean, if you look at more recent research, it's really quite easy to explain sentience now. So, if you want to get a feeling from that, one of our earliest videos we did so if you're a long time fan of the channel, but you came more recently, so you haven't seen our earlier stuff, watch the You're Probably Not Sentient video.

It's really core, I think, to how we see the world, but I [00:31:00] don't want to spam you guys with another copy of that video. But yeah, it's I'll just give you some examples of what we mean by this. So we now know from things like, you know, split brain patients that you can if you, if you, if you cover up, this takes too long to explain, basically just go watch the video. But there's compelling evidence that we probably aren't as sentient as we think we are. And, and that Even, you know, with fMRI stuff, you know, we can tell in the fMRI, you've made the decision long before you're conscious of making the decision and what we're experiencing with sentience is more of a, a little historian that's taking credit for a bunch of things they're not doing and that you will always claim credit.

Like, Oh, I decided that even if we, like a scientist can prove, no, you actually didn't make that decision. Like, like in arguably prove you will believe and have the perception that you did make that decision. And so it gets a lot easier to explain these things, but here's another thing with souls. Did you have anything else you wanted to get to before I go [00:32:00] ahead?

I'm curious to see what you Well, I wanted to go into, because people can be like, why? You know, given, you know, your read of the Christian Bible and everything like that, do you not believe in the traditional soul? And I'd say, well, you've got to remember, we also believe that Wynwood Reed's book, when I read certain things, I'm like, this feels like divinely inspired to me.

We've done a video track six goes into why we think that this particular text is divinely inspired. But here is a quote from it, which really resonates with me on the concept of souls. A day will come when the current belief in property after death, For is not existence property, and the dearest property of all, will be accounted a strange and selfish idea, just as we smile at the savage chief who believes that his gentility will be continued

in the world beneath the ground. And he will there be attended by his concubines and slaves. A so, the reason I read that, as you can see, like, even in his stuff, even in our, like, larger theology, the idea of a soul after death, to us, [00:33:00] is very similar to the idea of believing that you'll have a form of property after death, and not fully appreciating what you have right now, nor appreciating the genuine when you die.

Benevolence of a world where we are allowed to die and pass the future on to beings that we took the time to try to give better lives than ourselves and try to make better than ourselves this idea of, you know. Sitting in a chorus forever or something like that. They can be like, Oh, you just don't understand the emotions you'd experience.

And it's like, yeah, but like, I understand pleasant emotions. And the only thing that really brings me genuine satisfaction is the conscious sacrifice for. A value system that I have well thought through and then achieving that value system, right? It is action and change in the world that I achieve through my diligence.

If [00:34:00] I'm living a existence where I can no longer affect anything and all I'm doing is just sitting there with my own pleasant experience, that to me sounds like a form of hell. I mean, would you disagree or? Yeah, not, not my heaven. Hashtag not my heaven.

I just remembered after recording this, that we have a lot of Mormon fans, which are immediately going to jump in the comments and be like, but our heaven. Would give you satisfaction of other things to satisfy you.

And they're right. , the Mormon concept of heaven is definitely the most compelling of every, any concept of an afterlife I've ever heard. , so for people who don't know the Mormon concept of having or what they think happens after death, , once you've done a good enough job within this reality, you then go with your wife. And, , stay married forever and work together. You know, like my wife and I love to work together to create a new universe, which is going to be used to train another batch of souls. To run. Other [00:35:00] universes. , Now there are some, you know, some Mormons are like, well, we don't exactly. All of us believe that, but there are Mormons who do believe that, and that is within teachings from the church profits. , Mervin's update what they believe all the time.

So. Any Mormon. I can basically get away with saying they believe just about anything, unless it's against what the. Most recent church profits set in the most recent church sermon. But. What's really interesting here is, , I just also don't find that very compelling because I feel like that's what I'm already doing to try to work, to have some impact in crafting a. , prosperous galaxy in the future.

It's like, why, why delay that? When I believe that that's my responsibility right now. And in many ways, I'm playing a more fulfilling game because it's a more challenging game. I don't get to do it as the master of the universe, but as a father, who's trying to think through the way things work and build out culture and systems that can. Intergenerationally affect the [00:36:00] path of humanity.

So again, it's, it's not as compelling to me. And, and again, I would say your.

To me. There is so much, , pride that would cloud my vision. If I believed that I was one of these sorts of supernatural entities that had the capacity to live forever. , even if I'm borrowing some other entities juice to do that, that to me would still be like believing I was a Demi God of some sort.

Or at least more than what is the station of humans, humans of this generation, at least. And at the second node here where people can be like, well, you know, do what I do and you can live forever or do this and you can live forever. And it's like, I don't even want radical life extension. Like I don't need to live forever.

If I've left a positive impact with the short life I had.

So long is that impact is able to be multiplicative through the individuals. It itself impacted. If I had to keep doing that forever with another people are impacting me and then everything gets sort of washed out, you know, , because everybody's [00:37:00] trying to impact everyone else.

Everyone is trying to, you know, G.

Jitter the system. , but if I'm able to just leave it to the next generation and they're able to take and spin my ideas into something better, well, then I don't have that problem as much anymore. But here's, here's a question I have for you. When we divide souls in this way, one, I mean, a, a fetus almost certainly has less cognition than something like a dog, right?

At certain early stages. Would you say that the dog or the fetus more meaningfully has a soul? I mean, the, the dog at that point has more soul, but the human has more soul potential. And because I see everything is happening all at once and having already happened I see so long as I don't have reason to believe that that Human fetus, like we'll say that week two embryo or, or [00:38:00] fetus.

As long as I have no reason to believe that it is not viable in some way, that overall soulless of it is infinitely. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. Now here's another question I have for you. And dog versus advanced AI, which do you think has more of a soul? Obviously advanced AI. Advanced AI has more of a soul than us.

Yeah. Our definitions of sapience. That's, that's why I'm not a carbon fascist. It's more human than humans. This is one of the things that you and I talked about in the car this morning where I was like, okay, well then where do we really draw the line between the types of animals whose cognition matters and the types of animals whose cognition doesn't matter?

And we you know, people, people can know from our other work, we're not particularly a big fan of general utilitarianism or anything like that. I don't think that positive human emotions really matter. I mean, we just feel Positive emotions because our ancestors who felt those things had more surviving offsprings than the ones who didn't.

They're not like a sign of true good or anything like that. [00:39:00] So, and I feel that way about dogs. Like why did dogs feel pain and pleasures? Because their ancestors, like you shouldn't have wanton cruelty, but you know, don't overvalue these things. So then our value system, how would we make judgments about what kind of quote unquote souls matter and what kinds of souls don't matter?

And it's, is this an entity? With the ability of ascension, i. e. the ability from our perspective, ascension is the ability and desire to self improve and dogs simply don't have that ability or desire they're not going to build technology, they're not going to get off planet, not in their current form, now, You say, well, what have you genetically engineered a dog to be dramatically different than current dogs?

Right? It's like, yeah. So then that entity I think would deserve the same rights that a human has, but now this definition of what kinds of souls matter becomes relevant when we're thinking of AI, right? Because now this gets really interesting. So then does an AI matter? And here's the interesting [00:40:00] thing.

If you take this definition, the AIs that matter. And, and they deserve a level of human dignity, are not just the ais that have a sentient experience of reality that is similar to our own, like that we can empathize with, but the ais that are actively self-improving and have the potentiality of ascension you know, massively improving themselves.

And people are going to be like, well, that's a blasphemous belief to hold. And I'm like, yeah, but here's the problem for the groups that don't hold that belief. Okay. These AIs are going to come to exist. And if you approach them with this dehumanizing mindset, I guess is the only way I can put it. If you make yourself their enemy.

Assume that, you know, you should be the slave master of something that might be infinitely more powerful than yourself. [00:41:00] Then you give it a vested interest in getting rid of you. So don't You've said this so many times and I just want people to get it. And this is because it's not just, it's not just unique to AI either.

It's also unique to actually, this is an argument that you even hear being made regularly in political discussions. Trump recently in like his conversation with Elon Musk, for example, argued that the reason why. Russia invaded Ukraine was that as soon as Biden got an office or roughly a little bit after he said something along the lines that he would support Ukraine joining NATO, which would put Russia in a position of threat.

So it's, it's very, it's very similar. Like basically make anything into a plausible existential threat to anything else, and that anything else is going to come after it.

It's ubiquitous. It's a drama dynamic, even. Okay. So even in a workplace environment to continue this you've pointed out that if you hire someone or create a [00:42:00] dynamic within a company where one person is an existential threat to another employee, they will find a way to, To make that employee look bad or sabotage their work in a way that will get them fired so that their job is not threatened.

This will happen anywhere and everywhere. So of course we shouldn't let it happen with an AI. It's not just AI that creates the existential threat if you hold this belief that only humans as we understand them are deserving of human dignity. You also get this threat of, you know, in a world where we're entering, where you're going to have genetically modified humans, where you're going to have cybernetic humans you know, these are groups where, and look, we may not have them in 10 years, in 20 years, but as soon as we start to colonize this, Stars, you know, the ideologies we build today are going to be the ideologies we take to the stars.

And if we can't, you know, we call it in our track series, the covenant of the sons of man. If we can't build an ideology today that says, okay, those humans that end up separated from each other. 500, 1000 years and then [00:43:00] reunite and look and think very differently like that they are genuinely different at that point, if we can't ensure that they don't just immediately attempt to kill each other then we are creating an existential risk for our descendants, right?

And, and, and human speciating is an inevitability if we are a successful species. It's an inevitability. It happens in every single scenario where humanity wins. So we need to build ideologies that assume that that is going to happen. Yeah. And this is again, it's just like a core part of pluralism too.

Don't be a dick, people. Yeah. Do you have any finals? Well, another thing that you said about souls that I thought was really interesting is the way that you saw sort of the soul that mattered is of sort of a shadow of neuroactivity. That the soul is created Alongside the neural activity that represents it.

And, and when people are like, Oh, [00:44:00] do you think the soul is your neurons? Or do you think the soul is like matter? And the answer is no, it's the patterns. It's the patterns that lead to your experiences, which is why AI is important to me, and it wouldn't be to other people because I don't know, some people would only argue, I guess, if if a neuron created it, but there's, there's not, we may at some point engineer.

wet, goopy neurons that process AI for us that are not human. So I don't know. Yeah, this is and again, it was AI, one of the things that it has to be biologically based, it has to be wetware for it to be human or for us to care about it, because we're going to start using biological. Material for cheaper or more energy efficient or whatever, easy to scale computer processing or whatever, I don't know.

Yeah, we might. And then at that point, you know, do you say it has a soul, right? [00:45:00] No, you'd make up some other excuse. So stop, again, stop being a carbon fascist, stop being like a human fascist focus. I guess it's our consequentialist views too, that make us not necessarily overly preferential to humans because one, we understand how speciation is going to work and how Inhuman, very far future humans are going to seem but that too, we're very consequentialist in nature.

And so we really care about the output. And when we look at what makes humans human, which is our prefrontal cortex, our ability to override our biological impulses and rise above, that's really not, you know, this is not the place to, to focus on purely biological things, because that's sort of what doesn't make us human.

What makes us human is our ability to rise above. And AI is nothing but that rise above part.

Oh yes, just the quote from the martyrdom of man again that she's talking about here. Whoever improves his own nature improves the universe of which he is a part. He who strives to subdue his evil passions, vile remnants of the old four [00:46:00] footed life. And who cultivates the social affections. He who endeavors to better his condition, and to make his children wiser and happier than himself, whatever may be his motives, he will not have lived in vain.

All right. I mean, you can see this idea of subduing these pre evolved, instinctual, four footed passions. Yeah, I, it just seems to me so natural that historically, you know, if you needed true religions to survive, you needed to give people these really specific stories about souls.

We haven't done our tract on souls yet. We have one written. The reason we haven't done it yet is because it is. I think going to be so shocking to a lot of our audience that our, that, you know, the Technopuritan tradition doesn't really believe in souls. Well, but let me put it like this, just to make it clear.

To talk about souls and to explain our essence as, and humanness and specialness as being a soul. [00:47:00] Is as we'll say backward, but I would just say antiquated not updated by our science as saying, well, of course, Apollo is dragging the sun across the sky and then Diana gets up and pulls across the moon.

I mean, it just now we know what's actually happening, so we don't need our just so story anymore. Let's talk about what's actually happening because now that we understand how. Our solar system works. We're able to do a lot of cool stuff. Imagine all the cool stuff we can do when we actually work with concepts like personhood and, and sapience and thought using the science we have instead of antiquated, just so stories.

And something I note here is really gonna be like, well, what about the parts of the Bible where they talk about, you know, people coming back to life in heaven and stuff like that. And If you go to our last track video, but we talk about, I think it's pretty clear, you know, we hear from Nebuchadnezzar's dream [00:48:00] that the kingdom of God is not a place, it's a time in the future.

They, they say that very specifically in that, in that story that the kingdom of God is in the future. Meaning heaven, which is the kingdom of God, whenever you read heaven, what you're essentially reading is in the future. , And so if they say something like you know, from our perspective in the future, you will be resurrected.

Like we already see the beginnings of the technology that can make that trivial for humanity's ancestors millions of years from now, whether it's through simulations or through literal resurrections that no longer seems like magic. That seems more within the realm of just like. Actual technology and talking about a real thing that's going to happen.

So that's what we mean when we talk about that. They can say like, well, do you think that you will have a life after death? And I'm like, I don't think heaven, heaven is after death insofar as the future is after death. And I, I actually think it would be almost [00:49:00] implausible that people wouldn't be running simulations of history in the distant future.

Meaning of course Simulation theory may be right to an extent, but that may also be a part of what's being described in these parts of the Bible. That's an interesting take. Yeah. Well, anyway, I love you to death, Simone. I love you to death too. And, and I love that we can, you know, go through a bunch of tedious and stressful business logistics and then immediately switch to the soul and end up with conversations like these.

So living with you, it's a dream and I really appreciate that. You are amazing.

Speaker 5: When it starts popping, make sure the lid's down. Oh,

is that the threat? Do you know what marrying is, Octavian? Marrying is what mommy and [00:50:00] dad are. That's, uh, choosing to spend your life with someone.

I think it's gonna start popping soon.

You see the gears? Don't they look cool?

Oh no! You're doing a great job, Octavian. Wow. Oh, you're keeping it from getting burnt, and that's the important part, but keep it over the fire. Get the floor? What do you mean?

I bet it's getting close.[00:51:00]

Uh oh. Alright, we'll take care of that.

In this episode, we delve into a fierce argument regarding the pronatalist perspective and its societal implications. The discussion kicks off with a bold assertion: anyone having fewer than three children is contributing to the 'cuck' phenomenon. We explore the concept of cuckoldry through various lenses, including labor, taxes, and genetics. Historical and modern-day parallels are drawn, such as the behavior of cuckoo birds and current parenting trends. The conversation also touches on broader societal issues such as media integrity, political dynamics, and cultural shifts influenced by demographics and immigration. The video is peppered with contentious views and data-driven insights on parenting practices, population dynamics, and societal future. The dialogue nuances between genetic perpetuity, societal roles, and personal decisions, making a case for robust family structures as a pillar for societal strength.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today, I am going to be making an argument that anyone below replacement rate.

So if you have two kids, you're below the replacement rate. So anyone with less than three kids. Okay, two kids is considered a lot these days. is a cut. Definitionally, you're a cut. Okay. They are contributing to a society, whether it be through their labor or their taxes, that other genetic stock is laying eggs in and slowly replacing it.

Ew! It's true. It's true. They are contributing to a future that their genes do not play a role in. They are feeding the genes of other people, which is what cuckoldry is. Cuckoldry comes from the cuckoo bird, which lays its eggs in another bird's nest, and then they're they take all the food and the other birds end up dying and they, you know, end up being the [00:01:00] what these other birds, this other species of birds is caring for.

The, the cuckoo birds. Because they have stronger children, they have bigger children, they have more robust children. Where the other birds have these Does this not work in this modern time? These high anxiety children who can barely hold it together. They end up just closing off and going in a corner and having a good cry. You having a good cry? Blubbering and crying.

Speaker 9: When you're a wee bubbling and greeting, you're going to come bubbling and greeting on your knees, and going about, it's only one, it's only one.

Malcolm Collins: And, or remove, yeah, remove from the gene pool,

to anyone who doubts me, that kids these days face essentially no punishment, no matter what they do. Watch this video where multiple people in Walmart. Are attacking anyone who attempts to intervene in this little girl's tirade

Protecting children from the consequences of their actions, leads to spiritual and emotional fragility. And desiccation.

Speaker 7: [00:02:00] Oh s**t. Don't y'all do that to a little girl. Y'all don't know what she's going through.

Malcolm Collins: And that's the cuckoo bird children. Children who dealt with hardship.

Children who were punished when they were young. Um,

And this point is a point that I cannot emphasize enough for pro natalist parents. I found one study showing that 74% of parents were practicing gentle parenting and another showing 78% of current parents are practicing gentle parenting.

That's. Parenting without punishment or discipline Your goal is not to remove negative stimuli from your children's life. It is to raise children with robust, ambitious vitals spirits within them. And that is done through stoking their internal wills rather than smothering and protecting them. You need to raise the type of child whose spirit looks like that of the cuckoo in relation

to those whose spirits have been desiccated by the [00:03:00] urban monoculture.

Speaker 11: Cuckoos are brood parasites that trick smaller birds into raising their chicks. In this video, a larger cuckoo chick is being fed by a smaller foster parent that mistakenly believes it's its own offspring.

Malcolm Collins: But it's, it's, it's, it's worse than that..

Simone Collins: If you've no kids, there's little difference between my husband knocking up your wife and me getting pregnant. Either way, you have no kids and he is one more in the nest that we all share, the next generation.

Malcolm Collins: The next time someone bragged about getting sterilized to spite Republicans for winning an election cycle, ask them to please stop sharing their cuckoldry fetish so publicly.

Ouch, Malcolm. It's true across the board. I, I can constantly now see self owns, self ownership, like recently we did an episode where a woman was bragging about how she was sterilizing herself because Trump won this election cycle.

Speaker 7: Okay, for those of us who have a uterus to contend [00:04:00] with, I personally plan to get mine fully yeeted before January 20th.

Not just sterilized, removed. I already knew that I didn't want kids because pregnancy would be a disaster for me medically, but this incoming administration is my cue to make that decision final. My answer to your body my choice is to entirely remove the part of my body they're trying to regulate. It is a rousing f**k you to any shitty man who voted for this.

Speaker 12: The cuckoo

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: Votes manga.

Speaker 12: and within minutes, this baby gets rid of all the competition. Then, the poor old reed warblers end up feeding the imposter, even when it's five times bigger than they are.

Malcolm Collins: It's wild to me that somehow we convinced these mentally and spiritually weak. To do this to themselves. That any animal in nature would voluntarily remove themselves from the gene pool and think it is an own on their opponents,

you rolled the egg out of your own nest. It is a wild to [00:05:00] me that somehow. We are raising a generation of cocoons to replace those. The urban monoculture has memetically and spiritually sterilized.

And it's not even immoral because they have chosen to do it to themselves.

As it was with an immigrant boyfriend, by the way, so you're sterilizing someone an immigrant may have knocked up.

Okay that that seems counterintuitive to your aims of your aims are increased or maintaining our current diversity.

And if you are wondering why I am making an argument, that may sound mean-spirited. Those with less than three kids are definitionally cucking themselves. For the pro natalist movement to be effective.

It needs to find ways to not just intellectually argue that having kids is good, but to emotionally argue

In a way that changes how individuals see themselves and others, not just that having kids is good, but not having kids is bad. [00:06:00]

And having kids below replacement rate is bad.

And giving into the urban mono culture and making you our kids emotionally and spiritually fragile is bad.

for men, the fear of dying a cook is a very powerful, emotional motivator.

The other side uses emotional pleas very effectively. And if we can effectively frame them as just angry, tweeting, cucked, little birds. Than it is easier to drown out these emotional pleas. Or a great other self owned, I've seen constantly recently. So here's a piece by NBC News which is journalists flock to blue sky as X becomes increasingly quote unquote toxic.

And by toxic, of course they mean having opinions that aren't their own. And flagging them when they lie about things because they've been lying about things a lot. I don't know if you remember the, I think NBC did this and MSNBC did this at one point where they did a thing where they tried to make it look like Joe [00:07:00] Rogan was supporting Kamala Harris by bringing together clips of him supporting Tulsi Gabbard with Kamala Harris.

Speaker 15: It has to do with comments that he made about Tulsi Gabbard..

Speaker 16: But then ,

Speaker 15: Rogan called out MSNBC, saying that they posted a TikTok earlier this month that suggested that he said both of those remarks about Harris. She's gonna

Speaker 16: win.

No, she's not. She can win. She is a strong woman. She is a person who served overseas twice in a medical unit. She was a congresswoman for eight years. Yeah. She is a person of color. She's everything you want. ,

Speaker 15: Tulsi even sharing the clip and writing. MSNBC is again exposed as a propaganda machine for the Democrat elite, and how they will brazenly try to deceive the American people.

Malcolm Collins: And it's like, Oh, you don't like being called out on your disinformation. And so you're bragging about, as we've mentioned, like the guardian has left Twitter. You're bragging about moving to a platform that has, and I love, they'll talk about, and this is what they constantly do. They'll be like, X has like 300 [00:08:00] million active users.

And we have 27 million accounts. It's like, how many active users? Do you have money? Because you just compared accounts to active users and they're like we have around a million. Oh We have So it looks like no, I think it's X has what is it a hundred million active users like tuna? I can't remember.

I'll edit in post

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx): 237.8 million daily active users.

Malcolm Collins: And they've got I remember 1 million active users before the presidential cycle 3 million active users now They are around 1 percent of Twitter. They are not relevant. They are bragging about entering an echo chamber where no one is going to hear or listen to what they're doing.

Speaker 5: My safe space. People don't judge me and haters don't hate In my safe

[00:09:00] safe space.

Speaker 6: You will see There's a very select crowd In your safe space

Speaker 5: People that support me Mixed in with More people that support me And say nice things My

Speaker 6: you cannot stop me from getting inside! I am cold and I am hard, and my name is Reality!

Speaker 5: Oh no, not Reality! Somebody stop him!

Simone Collins: So what would you say to the counter argument and the observation made by many people talking about prenatalism, that Pronatalists are in the end, these people having more than two kids are ultimately paying for all the people who aren't having kids, that we're funding their lifestyle and they are

Malcolm Collins: financially

Simone Collins: abusing us, our children.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, but we genetically win at the end of the day, and I don't think that our children are going to [00:10:00] care for you in your older years in the way you expect them to. Well, they're going to be

Simone Collins: forced by their governments through tax to pay for it. If they

Malcolm Collins: stay in governments that attempt to do that. I think government are going to find the talent and the increasingly concentrated wealth pools leave very quickly.

I think they think, Oh, well, I fed the cuckoo because the cuckoo children were the strongest children. And I expected the cuckoo to care for me in my retirement. And then what I realized is the cuckoo don't give a s**t about me. The cuckoo thinks I am the enemy. The cuckoo, oh, yes, it suckled from my teat for a while, but it does not care at all.

And I think that they think that they're going to be extracting a lot more from our children than they're actually going to be extracting. And I think that I am okay with individuals, even ourselves from framing things this way. Oh, because that's a good way to get to [00:11:00] progressives, right? Like a progressive doesn't understand that.

And so we're like, okay, well, don't you understand that you're foisting your responsibility on the migrants that you are taking into your country? And they're like, oh, I guess. Yeah. So we're really hurting migrants. But the reality of the situation is, is those migrants children when they're like, yeah, we want to throw, you know, LGBT people off roofs and the progressives are like, you won't be thinking this in 20 years.

And it's like the ones that didn't continue thinking that are the ones that stopped having children. The ones that did keep thinking that. And had a lot of kids are the ones that are going to set the tone of your culture moving forward

What would happen to a gay couple in Gaza?

Executed according to Islamic law. Islam doesn't endorse gays. Islam doesn't endorse homosexuality. Just like Canada doesn't endorse a lot of things. So would you like to see Sharia law in Canada replace Canadian law? At some point, it will. You know, Because we are, we have families, we are making babies, you're not your population is going down the slum, right?

And [00:12:00] by 2060, according to Pew Research Institute, your research, by 2060, Muslims will be the biggest religious group the world over. What are you going to do then? Are you going to oppose Sharia even then? One day we can have a Muslim majority nation here in Canada.

Right In your face!

Malcolm Collins: And people are then like well The people are then like well malcolm Are you saying you're concerned about these immigrant groups that you know have these incredibly um Uh, I guess archaic of belief systems that are really antagonistic to things like gay people and stuff like that.

And I'm like, they should be concerned about them, but I'm not because these people are not particularly technologically competent. And they'll be bringing the types of people who think that gay should be thrown from roofs. They are not the types of people who develop advanced AI drone systems. By the way, if you want to hear a cool AI story recently, I saw a story about an AI dog that was being used to deliver drugs to people.

And when the police, It, [00:13:00] it was in Russia

Simone Collins: and

Malcolm Collins: internally erased its own like, like burned its own navigation system and hard drive. So they couldn't find out who it belonged to. So it allows drug runners to run drugs to locations without any risk at all. Oh gosh.

Simone Collins: I first thought that you meant like aid, pharmaceuticals you know, malaria drugs.

No, this was like, okay, the fun stuff. Okay. All right. Isn't that kind of wild? That's so fun. I'm done. Yeah, I mean, much better that than a human with something shoved up a bodily cavity that we don't want things shoved up. That's very interesting. Good. Good for that. I can't, I think we can buy robot dogs now.

Can't we? If we want to. Yeah, we can. Like the Boston Dynamics dog. Isn't that for sale? That's for the Boston Dynamics dog. Oh, that's so cool. Honestly, I bet their team is thrilled. That's so cool. I mean just to know that because I mean, you know, you know that your tech is useful when When a drug [00:14:00] cartel uses it The government uses it.

You never know if it's like maybe you were just really good at rfps Maybe you just were really good at marketing. Maybe you knew the right person good way to know

Malcolm Collins: that crypto was gonna do well I guess look for the cryptos the drug runners are using the most and that's the cryptos to invest in. But no I I Genuinely, like when we frame things this way, this is what a cuck is.

And so we're going to talk about two things going forward in episode one. I'm going to be talking a lot about crystal cafe that I found pretty interesting, where a lot of people bragging about losses here. And I never, so wait, define

Simone Collins: crystal cafe. Cause you had mentioned this to me for the first time this week.

I'd never heard of it before. Does this just come out of nowhere? Am I just that, I don't know how

Malcolm Collins: long it's been around, but it is a. Female version of reddit, and it is very clearly a female version of reddit. I thought you meant a female version of

Simone Collins: 4chan.

Malcolm Collins: I'm sorry, a female version of 4chan is very clearly a female version of 4chan.

And after this we're going to talk about the statistics around cuckolding, and the statistics around cuckolding as they relate to political opinions and views and stuff like that. But I'm going to go over like representative stuff [00:15:00] from Crystal Cafe. And, and you can react to what's being said and talked about there.

So here's one where they posted, cause you know, they do images like on 4chan. I don't like kids. I didn't even like kids when I was a kid. And it's Daria sitting there. And then somebody saying, does anyone else feel this way? I just see a woman with a kid. I feel almost betrayed in a way. Like I fought so hard for abortion rights and you decided to have some Moids crotch spawn.

I know it isn't rational, but I can't be alone in feeling this way. And then some of the responses are things like only if it's a boy really women having daughters is always nice to hear But especially knowing if the daughters to grow up with good childhoods I otherwise constantly feel depressed knowing how many girls out there are going through unstable families I being one of them and somebody was like, you sound extremely better.

And she goes, you sound like a boy. This is what they call men in this. There has to

Simone Collins: be some additional connotation to this. In

Malcolm Collins: [00:16:00] Moyd Noid, Noid, I think is, is for females. And so that's a translation of that. And then they go on to say, I have a special hatred for women who don't abort their sons. And I'm like, what?

This is, this is very much Like, what I'm talking about here, like, being proud of being cuckolded by the rest of society. When you don't have kids, and they are having kids, in many ways, it's even worse than, like, if you're, like, an extreme lefty, than if I directly knocked up your wife. Because if I directly knocked up your wife, at least the person you chose to share your genes with would be having more kids.

Than me, and my based Republican wife, having more kids, replacing you. And keep in mind, the way you vote is about 40 percent genetic in the mainstream academic studies on this, even by Wikipedia standards on geno politics. Hold on, I will read more, [00:17:00] Simone. I don't really hate my nieces.

They're fun, but I cannot live with a child. I mean hell there are enough children in the world They talk about population decline, but everyone I know had the kid. I don't buy it. I don't hate my sisters No, lol what so weird that they like don't buy it and like they're thinking is like this brain rotted sort of loop Well, it just seems like the

Simone Collins: classic anti nabalist hedonistic very very self centered very very in one's own head You Mindset that is pervasive among young people and very online people today.

Is that, I mean, that seems standard.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, okay. So here's a fun one. So they were talking about artificial wombs in this one. So i'm trying to find good quotes here

Where they're like, we are replacing men. Men used violence to make sure they got 100 percent of education and domestic servant class underneath them. Physical strength becomes less important. Women get more equal rights, and suddenly we're vastly outpacing them [00:18:00] in college. White collar jobs, and it'll only get worse.

will be the majority of STEM fields eventually too, though it will take a few generations. Once moids lose the ability to force a woman to be his personal domestic servant, they just can't function. Thankfully, technology will only accelerate this. Automation will make their physical labor ever less valuable.

Reproductive technology will take away that advantage, and eventually allow us to just stop making moids in general, or stop making men in general. God, stop making me hopeful. I think moids are well aware of this. I'm an American and I think that's why laws are becoming more pro great ape with forced births and scrote flipper babies.

And soon they'll want no fault divorces so they can use their wives as punching bags while they grape their own offspring. Then again,

Simone Collins: the only socially toxic environments I've been in are female dominated. environments. I am, I cannot imagine [00:19:00] a world with only women and world with only women

Malcolm Collins: companies that try to go like only women and then they immediately realize what a f*****g terrible.

No, but just understand like how toxic they are. Somebody like pushed back and they're like, well, You know, I don't, I don't think this would work. And they're like, well, then we'll just f*****g poison your food moide. And then another one came in and said, I would just start keeping poisoned dicks as trophies at that point, to be honest.

And then another one says I would sedate him, tie him up in my basin and torture him for weeks until he's dead. Or another one then said, why don't we just harvest moids sperm as soon as they reach puberty and call them off LMAO.

Simone Collins: I feel like this is just status hierarchy elbowing for like, you know, this is shock value.

Malcolm Collins: It was very similar to 4chan and it really reminded me and I thought that this was actually like incredibly funny. Somebody was like, I [00:20:00] was on 4chan and I heard about this 4chan for females and I was like, oh, I don't know.

I should go there. There's gonna be a lot of single, like, incel y women that I can pick up on. And then he started reading the comments. He's like, oh my god, these women are like, so hate men, and they're so toxic in the way they view men. If they didn't act this way, I'm sure they'd have no trouble getting a boyfriend.

And then he had this, like, moment of realization. Like, the Pepe frog with, like, galaxy spiraling out of its mouth. Which is, I think what we are for a lot of people is a chain from like a 4chan viewpoint of the world to a viewpoint of the world where they can humanize women and realize, you know, there are sane women out there.

If they, Well, not on this website, apparently. Why can't

Simone Collins: we just all get along, people? I, we want the same thing, broadly speaking, don't we? Hold on,

Malcolm Collins: but I actually think even on this website, they are really open to be talked to. They are really open to, Let's just say, [00:21:00] if you go to the section of the website that talks about frequent, like, fantasies they have being subjugated by conservative men is a very common fantasy on this subreddit.

And being forced to serve conservative men, or even raped, is pretty common. In their, like, fantasy section. And they're like, of course I never want this to happen in reality, but I'm just talking about, like, what gets me off when I think about it. Also a weird amount of attraction to their fathers.

I know, right? Let's just say that these aren't exactly the most, I'm not gonna kink shame, I'm not gonna kink shame, okay? But I don't know if the arousal patterns that they have are highly correlated with mental stability.

Simone Collins: Don't even know what

to

Malcolm Collins: say, this is so weird, so weird. I mean, what do you think of environments like this?

Like, I, I think that this is true and I think that through seeing this and through working on an environment like this, [00:22:00] some red pillars might be like, or some 4channers might be like, oh. I think that if they learn to humanize girls, they would better be able to target males as romantic partners.

Simone Collins: Is this a But do they want to?

I mean, it seems like they don't they don't want to. Or like, I think, what I see, I see this a lot in, in culture in general, is that, There is great interest and sort of desire for the other sex, both among women and men, but then this cultural understanding that the other sex is repugnant and evil and we have to not like them and they are the enemy.

And so there's this weird push and pull. That's why I keep thinking like we've got to find some way to leverage the enemies to lovers trope because like this is maybe this is how we can bridge the divide.

Malcolm Collins: They're already into it. Look, they don't, they don't, they, they are looking for a guy. This is the thing about guys who like don't date progressive women.

[00:23:00] So many of them are just looking for a guy that they see as a strong leader who they do not see as victimizing women. If you, unfortunately, if you do the stupid thing, like you leave them at home and you go work every day and they get on online forums, they'll get brainwashed and start to hate you. If they go to a job that you're not involved in, I really do think that the sword and shield marriage, the working together with your wife is the only pathway, because when you atomize yourself from your wife, you provide Cultist the opportunity to brainwash her.

But when you don't provide this opportunity, when you are the strong leading force in her life, you don't have to worry about this. These women, they're not like you, basically. They want that and they would change from these illogical and self deprecating and self hating mindsets if they had that.

But so few guys are willing to provide that anymore, I think, is part of the problem. They, they get in these, misogynistic [00:24:00] mindsets that prevent them from humanizing the women that they are targeting. And so they cannot think through, Oh, this is what she likely actually wants. Like, but I'm not seeing her as a annoyed or whatever.

Right. Now let's talk about cuckolding because this is the cuckolding episode. This is the us calling out all those cucks out there. And interestingly there was another guy who did studies on this and found that while masochism was higher among Democrats cuckolding was higher among Republicans.

And we

Simone Collins: were seeing that. That's why I'm like, I'm not sure where you're going to take this. I'm very curious.

Malcolm Collins: We'll get into the data, but I actually think the reason is Is that a certain portion of the population is born with arousal through humiliation? And in democratic men, they are more likely to be okay gaining that arousal through humiliation and denial Through being subs And being [00:25:00] subjugated by their partner.

Whereas the Republican leaners, I think are less likely to be interested in being subs or subjugated. And so they get the humiliation arousal by their wives being was a male they see as superior to them. So that makes perfect sense to me. It's not something I would be into at all, but I get it.

Like, I, I see if you are aroused by and you can read our book, The Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality, if you're wondering why people would be aroused by that. But one guy for his book Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire the limiter, he surveyed Americans and found that 58 percent of men and about a third of women had at some point fantasized about cuckolding.

Now I suspect that him and in our own data, This is done pretty poorly because I do not think that they likely asked the important question, which is, do you prefer to sleep with other men's partners, or do you want your own partner being slept with by other [00:26:00] people? So, for example, as I've mentioned in the past, I have found myself Aroused enough by the idea of sleeping with someone else's partner.

And just keep in mind that like, I'm not, you can be like, Oh, you'll never run a Republican seat saying something like that. I'm like, Trump said this. Trump literally said he liked sleeping with his friends wives. As to why men would have an unusual attraction to this. The reason being core, like, of course, they're caring for your genes.

It's the best possible scenario. From a genetic standpoint, of course I am going to, when I am more aroused by a scenario, what that means is I am willing to accept potential partners who I genetically wouldn't tolerate if I thought I had to raise their children. Basically what that's, what it means to say, I am additionally aroused by this scenario.

So that's what I'm saying, like from a genetic standpoint or an evolutionary standpoint when I'm saying that I think that they're not controlling for that potentially. And I think even with the republicans, they may not be controlling [00:27:00] the republicans who said they were interested in cuckoldry where they meant they were interesting and culturally as the dominant partner.

Not as a submissive partner or submissive might be the wrong word, but the one being cuckolded. Now an interesting thing is they did a follow up survey of 580 gay men who are already into cuckoldry. And the Gay men were not as interested when it came to cataclysm as the in the bdsm scenes or the interracial scenes as frequently as to why Specifically, I think the interracial scenes are less common in the gay community.

I think it's because the Humiliation that's gained through cut coldry in a interracial phenomenon is the idea of it being very clear that your genes are being erased and I think that a lot of people really like that idea and I think that that when and I think Attacking people online when they're like bragging about not having kids for engaging in cuckoldry fetishry So when somebody's like I'm having my uterus removed be like keep your cuckoldry fetishes off of [00:28:00] my blue sky or X Yes, we'll replace you.

That's fine or here's a fun one that's interesting. If you want to talk about the increase in cuckoldry searches for cuckoldry on porn websites have increased by 57 percent in the last three years. It's estimated that there are around 6. 25 million us couples who have an active cuckold relationship.

Now, I will note that this leads to a high degree of divorces. Two out of ten married couples who engage in cuckoldry get divorced due to jealousy. That's 20%, so not a ton, but still a lot. And of young adults, 18 to 29, who practice cuckoldry, five out of ten relationships end in a breakup. While 20 percent end up practicing this throughout their lives.

Simone Collins: Part of me wonders, though, I feel like a lot of people may not Be able to parse out well, the difference between cuckoldry slash swinging slash polyamory. Because I mean, I think that there's, I mean, like if, if you find it arousing to sleep with other men's women or to have [00:29:00] other men sleep with your woman, for example, like some people will be like, yeah, it's cause I'm Polly and other people would be like, yeah, it's cause I'm a swinger.

And other people would be like, yeah, cause I'm into cuckoldry. Oh, that would

Malcolm Collins: also explain why Democrats are into it less, because they're not being honest with themselves. They're like, I'm just Pauly. I'm just Pauly, exactly. I'm with five other men. And conservatives are like, yeah, I'm a cuckold, whatever.

That, that's probably a big part of it.

Simone Collins: So Yeah, I feel like it just, in terms of measurement here, there's so many Like the extent to which you're exposed to or you call things or label things, there are too many ways to label this.

Malcolm Collins: I agree with that a hundred percent. And I also went back to our old data on cuckoldry to see what it was most correlated with in terms of other fetishes instead of just being Republican.

And so admitting that you are into cuckoldry. Being dirty was one where it was a big discrimination. So men who are into cuckoldry, 41 percent engaged in some form of pornography where being dirty was part of it, and only 5 percent of men who weren't into cuckoldry engaged with that. Oh, by the way, to be able to get an example, That's so weird.[00:30:00]

Was looking at regular masturbation. And our sample only showed way lower than the other samples, only 18 percent of men into cuckoldry. So one in five men, which is still a lot, but I mean, it's not, you know, as much as the other things. Voyeurism might be motivating a lot of cuckoldry with 71 percent of the men who are into cuckoldry also into voyeurism and only 28 percent of the men who weren't into cuckoldry into voyeurism.

So that's a huge difference. Here's an interesting one. Caregiver little 2 percent of men who weren't into cuckoldry were into caregiver level 24%. So almost one in four of the men in the cuckoldry within the caregiver levels. relationships. Here's another fun one. Bestiality. 0 percent of the men not into cut culture were into bestiality.

24 percent sorry, no, 12 percent of the men who were into cut culture were into bestiality. So about one in ten guys. I think that's,

Simone Collins: no, I think that has more to do with co cultural already, something where you have to have kind of really delved into [00:31:00] and been open with yourself about your arousal pathways to discover like, yeah, okay, I'm actually into this, I'm going to say I'm into it on a survey.

That, that means you're also more likely to be someone who has delved deep enough into their arousal pathways to admit on a survey that they're into bestiality. So again, I think that's more about

Malcolm Collins: knowing. The humiliation here is, is, is I think the really telling one because the rates are just so high.

Even higher than the difference in voyeurism. Which is to say that 71 percent of men who are into cuckoldry are into humiliation. And only 11 percent of men who are not into cuckoldry are into humiliation.

Simone Collins: Well, it isn't your theory around bestiality that it is about humiliation? Primarily. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: well, it's about, yeah, I think fear of being rejected is also part of it.

And humiliation is another part of it. By the way, I was recently editing our episode I can't remember what I was talking, like, some guys are, like, confused, very confused by what women are into because they've been sort of brainwashed by the [00:32:00] red pill movement and they don't understand women very well.

And they're like, how did a guy like Malcolm get lots of girls to sleep with him really easily? And other guys are like, do you not see that he's like the Harry Potter archetype? Like, of course, like the nerdy, confident otherwise goal directed guy, like that that is. And I realize the mistake that people are making, that is being fed to them by the leaders of the, online like masculine community is a lot of these guys have risen in power hierarchies because they look like a man who should rise within power hierarchies.

They look uniquely buff or fit or something like that. What guys do not realize is the buff fit man is the equivalent of a woman with good makeup. The only people who care about that are other women. This is an in yeah, it's it's preening behavior. It's preening Right. It's preening behavior. It's an internal sexual hierarchy and not external sexual hierarchy and they're like, well, why is it?

That when and this is the studies that [00:33:00] this was the big break for me When I realized that they were looking at studies where they would show different body types and say like, which man do you most want to sleep with? Like, which man do you find most attractive of the samples? And they'd be like, look, women are choosing the really muscular men.

And I'm like, you are showing a fundamental misunderstanding of how women choose their partners. I would ask you to take that same sample of women and then say, draw the guy that you have fantasized most about. Okay. Or draw the last guy that you, you last had an obsession with, a sexual obsession with.

What does he look like? Who is the last guy who you became obsessed over and had increasing intrusive thoughts about? That's where you find what women are actually overwhelmingly I'm picturing

Simone Collins: a scene from Turning Red where she's under her bed and she draws a picture of the guy she has a crush on as a mermaid

Malcolm Collins: or something.

Okay, his shoulders are kinda [00:34:00] nice. His eyes are Fine.

Malcolm Collins: Yes! No, that's actually it. Well, and this is the thing where guys are like, Women must be into like really tough men. I was like, I, I hung out on Tumblr when it was like a woman porn site, basically, where women were just drawing, like, what they were into back then, and it's like, the Onceler, and like, Jack Skellington, and like, it is.

Simone Collins: Yes, and what was with like all the Onceler, like, it was, it wasn't just the Onceler, it was the Onceler, like, coming on to himself, like, Yeah, it's like

Malcolm Collins: gay one,

Simone Collins: like

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Like you guys have no, if you, if you refuse to accept what women are really like, then you are not going to be successful with women.

And the last time we mentioned, we're like, well, women. I actually read most of their porn. And if you look at the [00:35:00] types of romance novels that women are reading, this ultra buff, physique is actually fairly rare.

People like, no I've seen romance novel covers. They have like big burly men on them. And I'm like, then you have seen romance novel covers in a cartoon because in real life, that is actually fairly rare.

So just as an example of this, I Googled on Amazon. , romance novels. And then ignored the sponsored list. And of the first 10 recommendations. Only the 10th had a burly man on it.

And even then it wasn't like an overly muscled guy.

Women are not turning you down because of how you look,

That's an excuse that you are hiding behind.

they're turning you down because you're not trying to learn what women really want. Or how to attract women. Or just trying enough in general, when I found Simone, I had been going on five dates a week for years.

I think a [00:36:00] portion of the men's rights movement and the red Pill movement has attempted to internalize their own view of what women should be like by.

What would arouse them most if women are like, and so they hear things like, Oh, like we talked about in a recent episode that we did on like, are women actually into the handmade sale scenario where it's like, Oh, overwhelmingly women are aroused by things like choking. And the women who aren't are a minority, but they are very, Disgusted by it.

Like you see this bifurcation here, but this doesn't mean that the average woman is not aroused by these more violent scenarios, and they think that that means that women like being pushed around. They think that that means that women like, and it's like, oh my God, read, read the books that they're reading.

Okay, Fifty Shades of Grey, for example, or any of the, the, the common, do these guys push these women around? Do they talk to [00:37:00] them with disrespect in a way, but in a way that is hyper coded and protective?

And this is just , missed, missed, missed. The, person that a woman, when she's given a smorgasbord, that's how men think about a partner. They like. Think they're going to be given like a smorgasbord of like harem maidens, and then they just choose the one that's most arousing. Yes, women might be choosing more muscular men in that scenario, but they find that scenario Ixos.

That's not what they want. That's not what they're obsessing over. And so if you look at that, you are going to end up deluded. And then you're like, Oh, so the men who look in a way that doesn't lead them to be at the top of masculine dominance hierarchies, they're the ones who clean up with women. And it's like, YES!

YES! You're getting it now. You're getting the Jack Sparrow effect. You're getting the Loki effect. In Marvel. Marvel. Who did all the women obsess over? Out of all [00:38:00] the characters they could have obsessed over.

Speaker 23: Am a god, you dull creature, and I will not be bullied by half of you

Malcolm Collins: if your understanding of women can't explain why Loki was the character they obsessed over, then you don't understand women.

And if your explanation Well, and then also, like, weirdly, like, dad bod Thor? What was that?

Simone Collins: I don't get people. Women liked dad bod Thor! Yeah, what was that? It was Loki and dad bod Thor. That's who people were talking about. Why? I don't know. It's just the truth. I'm just looking though. I get

Malcolm Collins: low key. Um, I like pale, skinny looking

Simone Collins: people.

Yeah. I'm a tad

Malcolm Collins: butt door

Simone Collins: though.

Malcolm Collins: Not my

Simone Collins: thing. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And, and I think that this also means that when guys actually accept the way women [00:39:00] actually think, they'll realize they have a lot more of a shot than they think they do.

Simone Collins: Yeah. There's probably a lot of guys who just assume that they have no chance and they do.

And, and then the conversely, there are a lot of guys who think that they're hot And they're not. So it is hard to, hard to parse these things out, but yeah, I mean, in the end, it doesn't matter. The people who are going to have a lot of kids are going to have a lot of kids. And,

Malcolm Collins: i, I think the motto of the pronatalist movement is, we will do it.

Simone Collins: We

Malcolm Collins: are the Cuckoos. We are raising the strong children. We are disciplining them to be resistant. We are disciplining them so that they don't have these horrifying mental health issues. We are not retreating to the refuges of LARPing some past tradition that obviously isn't protective. We are actually trying to rebuild the ship in real time.

I want to see if I can find the clockwork planet scene here, which I was in [00:40:00] anime. I was watching recently. That was such a perfect example of the antinatalist versus the pronatalist. And then the antinatalist guy is saying to the protagonist, which is a female male partner

Speaker 6: it doesn't look like those two have any intention of giving up.

Speaker 5: Gain from this?

Speaker 3: You pretended to repair the world, but really you were deforming it. Do you understand yet how it feels to be powerless? To be unable to resist while the world crumbles? Can you taste the despair? This is how humanity has suffered

Speaker 5: how the hell can you be so arrogant?

Nobody gave you the right to speak for all of humanity!

Speaker 4: You may have given up, but whatever happens, we never will!

Speaker 3: You can praise humanity all you want, but I won't accept it.

Speaker 3: You will know despair. You will feel how heavy a crime it was to twist the world.

Speaker 4: Marie, I'm finishing up the Torbjorn and [00:41:00] hooking it up to the bypass now.

Speaker 5: It's like no repair work I've ever

Speaker 6: seen. That's because it isn't repair work. They're giving birth to brand new gears.

Speaker: The holy tree has been completely reborn.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that that's what the pronatalist movement is versus the antinatalist movement is they are the most cartoonish villains I could hope for in my life arc, to the extent that I find it unfortunately further evidence that I might be in a simulation. That's just trying to get me.

Simone Collins: I don't want to wake up if this is a simulation. I think it's great. Final thoughts? Perinatalism remains a very low stress

cause

and I still think, yeah, it, it's about having a lot of kids. It's not about having two [00:42:00] kids or one kid. It's, it's about going into it. Either you're into it or you're not.

Oh, I want to have one kid. I'm like, then you don't matter. Like when people at the But it's not just that. It's like the, it's the worst. And of course, some people are, are restricted by fertility problems and other things that they just can't control. And I'm not, I don't want to judge people who have only one kid, but when you've had one kid, you have taken 80 plus percent of the sacrifice of the hit to your life.

Yeah. Because now, 24 7, you will be responsible for someone for the next 20 years or more. Who's, who needs you. And, and yet, you're not getting nearly any of the benefits of being a parent. And your kid isn't either. Like, kids seem to really flourish with

Malcolm Collins: siblings. very likely to, and you look at the data on this.

If you have one kid, they're going to have one kid. Your DNA is happening every day.

Simone Collins: That kid is not getting opportunities to care for others, to learn how to be selfless, to learn, have challenges, [00:43:00] develop boundaries, play all the time.

Malcolm Collins: I would prefer people have no kids to one or two kids.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I honestly, yeah.

I feel like it's better to do no kids or at least three for sure. I I'm with you on that. And it's not something I came into this thinking at all. So that's

Malcolm Collins: good. Not that you've been a parent of four. You're like, obviously.

Simone Collins: Yeah, no. And it's, it's so much harder just having one or two kids. It gets easier starting with three, which is terrible because everyone tells you they're like, well three's the worst and that's when it started getting better Well,

Malcolm Collins: I think these are people who space out their kids a ton I mean you should be having yeah

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah Yeah,

Simone Collins: I think if yeah if you get used to like life without diapers and then you go back to diapers Would be a nightmare, but we're just gonna have diapers for the next who knows how long I love you too.

Welcome.

Malcolm Collins: What are we doing for dinner tonight?

Simone Collins: I was, so what I was going to do today, cause now we don't [00:44:00] have really slices of turkey anymore. We have shreds of turkey is to so a couple options. One, I can do like a golden curry brick with white rice for you, or we can do fried rice and, but I could, I could separately do

Malcolm Collins: taquitos,

Simone Collins: turkey taquitos.

Malcolm Collins: Would that not work?

Simone Collins: Just like cheese and plain turkey. You'd like that? It seems awfully plain for you. I dip it in sauces. Okay. But like, you're okay with plain turkey inside with cheese.

Obviously there's cheese.

Malcolm Collins: Well, how about this? You, you put a little bit of the salsa you made on

Simone Collins: it.

Malcolm Collins: And it would probably make them soggy on the inside.

If I, if you want to try something else, I'm also, I'm really happy. As

Simone Collins: long as you're okay with like dipping them in sauces for flavor.

Malcolm Collins: Just make sure you use a cheese and we got to get sharper cheddar for our cheese for this.

Simone Collins: Okay. Well, I, yeah, I can put in, do you want me to put in a little bit of hot

Malcolm Collins: sauce

Simone Collins: with it

Malcolm Collins: or something?

No, it'll be good. I'll dip [00:45:00] it in hot sauce or whatever. Okay. So

Simone Collins: then what I'm going to do first is saute the turkey and sort of shred the butter to both like heat it up and just add some fat. Then I'm going to. Okay. Melt well, I'm going to put the tortillas in a pan with butter, melt the cheese, and then put in the turkey, and then you're good to go, yeah?

Malcolm Collins: I am so lucky to have you as a wife. I am so lucky. This is what I mean, this is every man's fantasy. A diligent pilgrim wife who cooks amazing meals for him.

Simone Collins: My, my pilgrim culture. Your

Malcolm Collins: turkey was so good.

Simone Collins: Oh, thank you. That was a, yeah, that's the Christmas miracle. We did really

Malcolm Collins: good. Like, I'm not lying. You are a normal person.

You'll be like, my turkey was damn good. Yeah, I didn't

Simone Collins: know. Cause yeah, you know, you grow up eating other people's turkey and just assuming that this is what turkey is and then you make it and you realize that it could actually be good. It's exciting. Yeah.

And also

like, we've had some weird turkey [00:46:00] experience.

Like remember when your mom ordered that smoked turkey from Texas and it like came to our house and I'm like,

Malcolm Collins: Oh, and the final thing I'd note here, some of you would be like, Oh, you're being so, bad, like, like bad pronatalists by saying that everyone who has below replacement rate is a cuck. And, and I just end by saying, we need to pressure people.

The cat lady statements that JD Vance is making, the you're a cuck statements when somebody is like, Oh, I, as a parent of two kids, you're like, Oh, you're below replacement rate. Like you do not do this. If you do not make it low status to have lots of kids, it's going to be very hard to fix this problem.

Simone Collins: No, I'm personally of the mind that that's not effective. That shame is never going to work. Both Shane and financial shame, financial incentives, any sort of materialistic stuff like that. Doesn't, that doesn't matter. What does matter is

Malcolm Collins: work for everything. People will do ridiculous things for satisfaction.

It won't [00:47:00] select genetically fit individuals and I don't know if I feel that way.

Simone Collins: I don't, I don't think that people will be driven by shame to have kids and I don't think they should be, but I do. I just, I think it's down to supporting the people who really, really love raising kids and who see it as important.

And you know, who live in communities of people who think it's important. I do think that that's what it comes down to and that. It just, I, I wish anyone who doesn't want to have kids, or a lot of kids, all the best. And they're just not part of what my focus area is going to be. And that's fine.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so cucks aren't part of your

Simone Collins: focus area?

No, they're not. They're the pronatal number of cucks. You seem to like, I just, It's, it's like um, walking by and like, Oh, I just like, I see this like, Banana slug. In some moss on a hiking trail and I just want to like poke it and look at it and laugh at it. And I'm like, can we just keep walking? Like, I don't care about the banana slug.

Why are you so obsessed with banana slugs? Like what's going on? And I don't get it. And

Malcolm Collins: she's [00:48:00] talking from experience. I see a banana slug and I'm like a little boy. I'm like, Oh, a banana slug. And I'm

Simone Collins: like, can we just keep walking? I came for a walk and this doesn't matter. And we didn't get in the car to go look at banana slugs.

And like, here I am sitting down for this podcast, we're going to talk about nothing but banana slugs. And I'm like, that has nothing to do with anything like pronatalism isn't about people who don't want kids. Pronatalism is about people who want to have children. A lot of

Malcolm Collins: people won't go on the walk if they don't know there could be banana slugs.

You don't want to have kids because they don't think that there's any status to be gained with it. No,

Simone Collins: but you don't want, you don't want those people either. Like, and no, I don't, I honestly don't think, maybe, maybe to start they do and then they get into it. I don't know, like, then they have to ego death after three kids.

They

Malcolm Collins: call us

Simone Collins: breeders. I think we can call them cucks. Fine, you know, do what you need to do, Malcolm, but Oh, the audience has done it. He's

Malcolm Collins: right. The kind and benevolent Simone, [00:49:00] or the malevolent, vindictive Melko?

Simone Collins: First off, just to be clear, in our culture, nobody gets points for being kind, because that's just a term that is used for insipid people who you can't describe using other words that are more interesting.

So, I'm not trying to do this to look good, I just think it's unnecessary, and it, it, it like opens you to liabilities when you don't need to be open to liabilities. Yes. So anyway, I'm going to make you your Turkey taquitos and yeah, I love you.

Malcolm Collins: More cheese than you've been using.

Simone Collins: Okay. Just tons of cheese and even

Malcolm Collins: more than last time, hard cheddar as hard, barely

Simone Collins: any Turkey.

Yeah, I'll go hard on the cheddar and I love you. Love you too.

Malcolm Collins: I'm gonna go get the covers to cover up their Christmas presents from the car. Could you

Simone Collins: please? Yeah. I really, when, when you pick up the kids, I would really appreciate it. Or just do it now. I'm gonna do it

Malcolm Collins: right now.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. Do it.

All right. Bye. Bye. I love you. I love you.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, did you get the the slide thing for the kids from Tiny Tots?

Simone Collins: No, I couldn't. [00:50:00] The you, you didn't approve the in did roof. I

Malcolm Collins: approved it in WhatsApp like three hours ago.

Simone Collins: You said that despite the fact that it was like $330

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Despite the fact that it costs a lot for shipping.

That's obvious. Alright, well I have to

Simone Collins: start dinner and after dinner you can help me with cleanup and then I'll buy it or you can buy it right now yourself. Okay. You can choose. I love you. You're such a good dad.

What are you doing? It's 50 degrees in here inside

Malcolm Collins: inside.

Simone Collins: Yeah. In front house where we're sitting right now.

Malcolm Collins: And you want to turn on, here's the thing, it's on, the

Simone Collins: heat's on, it's just taking a long time because it's really cold because of Russia. Russia sent their air to us and it's their fault.

Malcolm Collins: And just so people know, while we don't do heating in the winter, we do do it to keep it above 50.

So our pipes don't freeze. But it's one of these things where people are like, Oh my God, you, you want, like your life must be so terrible that you live in this state of constant frigid cold. And it's like, [00:51:00] okay. But here's what you haven't experienced. And this is the thing about suffering and challenges.

You don't get to experience the pleasure of hopping in a warm shower. Oh my gosh. Yes. House is freezing. And I will say like, Like if you are deciding between masturbating and jumping in a warm shower when your house is freezing, I jump in the shower five times out of ten. Well, and I take

Simone Collins: that over a cold shower.

Everyone's doing and I think even now the, the support for cold showers is starting to falter and cold plunges maybe. But yeah, I'm all for constant cold permeated by these bursts of warmth instead. Like, I want the inverse. I want constant cold. And then these like, I took an indulgent shower today.

Malcolm Collins: I did my, you're not going to get like a number of times masturbated in a day for me.

It's additional showers. I did not need that. I took today. That is my list [00:52:00] of daily indulgences.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, I mean, I do indulge with popcorn and I have to show you this because it makes me so happy. This is the, my three days worth of popcorn bag and let's see if we can see this. It says,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, you can see it.

It says clearly this popcorn has been enlarged show texture. You idiot. I mean,

Simone Collins: to whoever like was told by their boss that they had to put this on the bag, you darling. I

Malcolm Collins: think they had it out there in some regulatory agency got mad at them.

Simone Collins: Oh, it was like, this needs to be like, this isn't the size of the topic.

Like, this is like the size of my mouth, this popcorn. Honestly though, I would buy that. I would buy a popcorn that big. It would be so good.

Malcolm Collins: Clearly. It's been enlarged. You buffoonish child.

Simone Collins: Clearly. Clearly. Clearly you. Idiot! Ugh! But no, honestly, honestly, designer, have you met the [00:53:00] average person? Have you met the average human?

Because

Malcolm Collins: Simone, don't even, the average human is a slander against humanity.

Simone Collins: Yeah, honestly. But also like, I have moments where I'm not above it. I could totally see myself looking at this bag and being like, what? I thought I was getting or leaving popcorn. Because what that Trader Joe's synergistically popcorn, which you can't get anymore, legit had giant kernels.

Oh, they

Malcolm Collins: have anyone's got a hookup to synergist popcorn. I would like some of that too. That's yeah.

Simone Collins: Our actually our son Octavian, he's really trying to get on the good list and he keeps trying to find ways to like show how good he is. So he asked me what I wanted for Christmas and I told him I wanted popcorn because it's one of my great loves.

And he remembered. And so he's like, mommy wants popcorn for Christmas. He kept trying to give his ex shotgun to Santa too. He's like, I'm going to give [00:54:00] Santa my ex shotgun. Cause he, he has this like abundance mindset where if I give Santa my gun, Santa will give me more guns and I must make this happen.

I have to manifest.

Malcolm Collins: It's really delightful. It's a great person.

Simone Collins: Yellow shoe dance.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. He saw his brother going to shoot. He did the shoot it.

Speaker 18: whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Malcolm Collins: I love Octavian now. Every time he does, and he does nice things, like, unprovoked all the time, like, really nice, and he normally does nice things, but now, you know, he gets this treat, he'll give it to everyone in the room, and he'll, and then he'll, like, say to himself, I'm gonna be on the nice list for sure.

Simone Collins: He's all about, no, he is, he is very much focused. on getting Max toys and whatever it [00:55:00] takes. Toristan's not yet there. He's not planning for the long term yet. Titan has no idea what's going on. I feel like, I feel like talking to Titan is like talking to someone who's really, really high. Like last night, I was picking her up.

And she's like, you're wearing hair. Oh! Yeah. So she's just super, basically super high all the time. Torsten is, Torsten and Octavian is becoming quite human at this point.

It's

great. I love it. Anyway. All right. You want me to get started? Let's get started.

Speaker 20: It's too, it's too little tiny. Do you think you can get the tape off? Yeah. Yeah, I'll help you. I can get the tape off. Let me [00:56:00] see. Whoa, look at that. Don't, don't, don't! It's not sticking to my hands. Scissors! Scissors, please! Home scissors, please. Yes! Oh, use that one. Oh, I ripped them off! I ripped them off.

Speaker 21: Yes. What? I gotta test them to see if they fit. There's something in. Huh? What? What's this for? What's this for? What's this for? I don't need this. You don't need that.

Speaker 17: Do you like your new shoes?

Speaker 18: Yeah.

Speaker 17: What's special [00:57:00] about them? We don't

Speaker 18: need our boots. We don't need our boots. We don't need our boots. For school. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hey, don't forget this. And this.

Speaker 19: Titan, what's the What are you doing with the iron?

The Ethics and Fallout of the Assassination of United Healthcare's CEO In this video, we delve into the controversial assassination of Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Healthcare. We explore the ethical implications, the motives behind the murder, the reaction from the public, and the potential suspects involved. The discussion includes an in-depth analysis of Thompson's controversial business practices which led to significantly higher claim denial rates compared to other major insurance companies, resulting in many deaths. We also look at how his policies affected everyday lives and the broader conversation about the morality and legality of vigilante justice in dire circumstances.

Speaker: [00:00:00] Smithers had thwarted my earlier attempt to take candy from a baby, but with him out of the picture, I was free to wallow in my own crepulence. . But the old axiom was misleading. Taking the candy proved difficult I

Malcolm Collins: hello, Simone! Today we are going to be going over the murder of the CEO of United Healthcare. We are going to go over the ethical arguments tied to the murder, the fallout of the murder, how the murder happened, the potential suspects at play. Whoa. Hello. Because it is a mystery. Some evidence points to the wife.

I strongly disagree with this evidence and we'll get to why and how the murder was pulled off. Let's get into it. This is juicy. I mean, if we want to talk about, like, the insanity of the reaction to it, one of my favorite, like, most comical parts of the reaction to it has been the reward [00:01:00] Put out for any information that leads to this guy by the police department.

They put out a 10 k reward. Okay. ,

Speaker 5: Nice. Nice.

Malcolm Collins: Well, he murdered of United Healthcare,

Speaker 6: This is serious. We need to track this student down and give him his luckiest boy in America medal right away.

Speaker 7: I

Malcolm Collins: . And Simone, I will lay out the, the basic information, the moral dilemma here and how people are reacting to this first, because I think that people are playing this like this isn't a real moral dilemma.

It's like, just never react with joy to a murder, right? Like never celebrate a murder. And yet people celebrated the murder of bin Laden. This person almost certainly kills more people per year than bin Laden killed in his entire lifetime. , this is the, the best I have ever seen deontological ethics framed against consequentialist ethics.

Because,

like, deontological ethics, this person was [00:02:00] doing nothing wrong. They were doing their job and maximizing shareholder profit. Yes, everyone who died as a result of that. With a, someone who they had killed legally, the

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-9: Slight caveat here,

which muddies the waters a bit is this guy was not even acting with fiduciary responsibility in the best interest of his investors. '

cause he defrauded his investors.

We'll get to that in a second.

Malcolm Collins: person who assassinated them almost certainly lowered the number of random innocent Americans who will die over the next few years, even if just due to the trepidation of CEOs around making these kinds of decisions.

Simone Collins: Right. So you basically think he he's causing a chilling effect that will make other insurance company leaders nervous.

Malcolm Collins: And to be clear, I'll put a chart on screen here and you can see that they had over the number of claim denial rates of the average insurance company.

This increase happened under his reign. It increased to 32% [00:03:00] is. Kaiser Permanente the largest health insurance company Only denies seven percent

Over the past five years since this guy came into power their denial rates tripled

Simone Collins: tripled Oh

Malcolm Collins: this guy came in in 2021.

Simone Collins: Okay. again.

Malcolm Collins: When he came in in 2021, the company only denied post acute care by 10.

9%.

Oh, they were great when he started.

Yeah, it was 22. 7%. Now obviously went up from there, but this is just one category. Yeah

Ooh! This, it is, it is not true! At all an exaggeration to say this person's leadership and choices were killing, if you're talking about 57 million people under care, probably dozens of people a day.

Simone Collins: Honestly, it's hard for me to deny this considering those numbers. That is damning. Yeah, that's really bad

Speaker 32: [00:04:00] You wanna know why I don't have a coterie of supervillains?

Speaker 31: Why?

Speaker 32: My coterie is six feet f****n under!

Speaker 33: Batman doesn't kill

Speaker 32: people.

Speaker 31: Because he's a pussy!

Speaker 33: He's a dark creature of the night! He's a jackass! Who wrestles with murderers dressed like clowns and throws them in prison So they can break out of prison and then murder more people real me this how many people you think that man's indirectly murdered by?

Being too much of a candy ass not to kill these fools who clearly need to be smoked Once and for all you wrinkly sharp haired looking dimension fested f**k ,

Malcolm Collins: , but it's not just that here is an article. United healthcare uses AI model with a 90 percent error rate to deny care. Based on a calculation on the percentage of payment denials reversed through internal appeals processes or administrative law judge rulings. As described by an ongoing class action lawsuit brought by the estate of two deceased people. So two people who he killed, their families brought a lawsuit against him. Now, keep in mind he also received a 10 million salary and spent millions on lobbying. And if you're wondering about the types of claims that UnitedHealthcare [00:05:00] was denying under his leadership, here is a letter that a doctor had to send him.

Dear buttheads at insurance company. Hey,

Simone Collins: this is medical lingo to be clear. The butthead is a technical term. Sorry, carry on.

Malcolm Collins: I have to take time away from my patients to inform you that you are idiots. This whole experience makes me want to vomit, but of course I wouldn't dare throw up without the approval of the insurance company, which brings me to my point.

Already you have decided that a child receiving chemotherapy has no reason to be nauseated. And, and this is in response to their denying nausea medication to a child who is like going to die going through chemotherapy.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow. That's a bad look. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Huh.

Malcolm Collins: And it's, it's, it's It's not just that.

So I will, at the end of this, go over lots of individual [00:06:00] instances here, but I'll just go over one anecdote here, and this was somebody who just recently, just yesterday, they had talked to, for two hours, on the phone with seven to eight different people at UHC, trying to figure out why they denied it.

They're 80 year old mom's peripheral anagram. She has 60 percent blockage in her right leg. It has a lot of pain and now has to walk with a cane or a walker around my household, even short distances. Her cardiologist requested a prior authorization for it, but you H C denied it because quote, she hasn't tried 12 weeks of PT in quote.

What basically they're saying? Yeah. She'd probably die. It was in that amount of time, but whatever, you know, like, right. And here are what I'd say. So people are like, okay, but that doesn't just because there is somebody out there legally killing probably tens of people every day that doesn't give a sovereign citizen, the right to go out and kill him.

And then I [00:07:00] would say, okay, so what's somebody supposed to do if they watched their daughter slowly dying in front of their eyes? Or their wife and they every day We're filing with this company every day. They were spending hours on on phone calls with this company they knew it was unjust but they just didn't have the money to fight back This company continued to take money from their family every single year and you go to that individual and you're like i'm sorry other families have to experience this as well And then the person says well, then what am I supposed to do?

You And you say, well, you should let the legal system handle it

Speaker 16: Think it may be how you explain the thermonuclear bomb and ransom note found in your armored limousine.

Speaker 17: Yes, I can. They were merely researched for my novella. Give me money or I'll destroy your president. I'm a legitimate businessman who has been unfairly stigmatized

why would I, a humble man. Possess a cache of nuclear weapons capable of destroying the city ten times over. No! I [00:08:00] believe that truth and justice will prevail. The system works, and I have faith in the system. God bless America! Destroyer!

Destroyer!

Malcolm Collins: And I, and I'd ask you seriously, do you think that this guy will ever face any serious repercussions from the legal system for what he's doing?

Simone Collins: No, of course

Malcolm Collins: not. Do you think he's going to stop doing what he's doing?

Do you think other CEOs are going to stop doing this more and more and more and more people are going to watch their kids die and more people are going to watch their spouses die slowly?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, this is just a more violent death related issue. Version of what happened with the housing crisis and the financial crisis in 2008.

We saw what happens to people who are very wealthy and well connected when they do something provably wrong, even illegal in their case.

Speaker 16: This is nothing more than a salty slab of justice jerky. Cut and dry So, you know, case closed. They say we, uh, I'll skip this trial thingy and go home.

Okay, what is trying to [00:09:00] say is that,

Speaker 17: is that, uh, we believe that truth and justice will prevail, that the system works, and, uh, we have faith in the system. When do I get to hit him again?

Malcolm Collins: This guy actually might have had a prison sentence in his near future, but it was for securities fraud, not killing people. That's what the government cares about.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So, and I'll go, no, at some point you need to ask, like, Okay, Nazis are taking over your country. Like how bad do things need to get before you say They might be killing people legally, but at some point somebody needs to do something.

Speaker 34: I used to think God put me here for a purpose.

For peace. Know, lately I'm just thinking I'm a f*****g maniac.

Speaker 35: Do you think I feel good? When after some dude does some atrocious act, that I have to kill them?

When I find out someone murdered an innocent person, or sold somebody heroin, or did some graffiti, and I kill that person with [00:10:00] my bare hands, you think that gives me pleasure?

No.

Well, it does. No! What separates us from other killers is we only kill bad people. Usually. Unless there's a mistake. Now, do I sound like a f*****g maniac?

Malcolm Collins: So you might be like well the guy had kids and a wife Right, and i'm like actually they were separated and he wasn't living with them and then you're like, okay Well, maybe he had like a good heart like he gave to non profits or something I looked I can't find any non profit fundraising.

I can't find any donations major donations to non profit and then you can say Okay, well, maybe this was just like he just did this one thing and it was like his job and he like wasn't otherwise an evil person. No, he was in the process of being sued for defrauding a firefighter's pension fund. How do

Simone Collins: you even do that?

Speaker 24: Are you a real villain? Well, uh, [00:11:00] technically, uh, nah. Alright, I can see that I will have to teach you how to be villainous.

Simone Collins: Okay, so I can go into

Malcolm Collins: the specifics of this case. The Hollywood Firefighters Pension Fund fired a lawsuit against Thompson, alleging he had sold over 15 million of UnitedHealth stock despite being actively aware of a Justice Department antitrust investigation into the health insurance company that he did not disclose with the investors or the public.

Simone Collins: Oh, disclosures issue. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: It erased 25 billion of shareholder value when it was released.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: oh yeah, right. Hold on. he sold 30 percent of his shares in the company as soon as they were under investigation.

Simone Collins: He did

Malcolm Collins: without telling the investors. So he didn't even practice fiduciary responsibility Hold on. Now you might be saying, okay, okay, okay. But it's not like. He was stealing from every American taxpayer watching this right now. Well, you'd be surprised. Actually, for the second time in one month, the U.

S. Justice Department sued UnitedHealthcare Group for [00:12:00] wrongfully obtaining a billion dollars in Medicare. The Justice Department's involvement highlights the gravity of the situation. This is the second time they had done this.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow. I know Doge is talking, and I guess Vivek Ramaswamy and Musk are talking about unauthorized payments through Medicare and Medicaid.

Maybe this is what they're referring to as well. Stuff that's going to both medical providers, but also insurance companies. Basically,

Malcolm Collins: they were telling patients that their illnesses weren't severe enough to be worthy of stuff. But whenever a patient, they, they did give out money, they would then go to the U.

S. government and exaggerate the patient's symptoms to get more money than they were giving out.

Simone Collins: That makes sense. Again, this is an adverse incentives thing. They're doing what They need to do to maximize profit.

Malcolm Collins: Hold

Simone Collins: on.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so you're, you're saying like, yeah, but this is just like indicative of the whole industry.

Yeah, I'm saying don't hate

Simone Collins: the players, hate the game.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. Listen, they say, Malcolm, you're a monster. Imagine your father [00:13:00] made hundreds of millions of dollars running an insurance company that dealt with life and death. Surely he would not be able to avoid scandal to provide for the family. Now, do you remember the company that my dad sold?

Yeah. Yeah. It's a life insurance company. It was a 19 billion dollar company when he sold it. It was built by my great grandfather, grown by my grandfather, and grown significantly by my father who sold it. It was called the Fidelity Union Life Insurance Company. If you haven't heard of it, you may have heard of the U.

S. branch of Allianz, which is what it transformed into after my dad sold it. And you might be like, Oh, you rich kid, Malcolm. I inherited jack s**t. When my mom died, I got 30, 000 because my family believes in heavily, heavily donating money heavily, heavily doing everything they can to give back to the country.

Being in Congress or donating lots of money, as you know, so when you see my family's plaque to all these museums we go [00:14:00] to, but I don't, I don't have any of that money. And a lot of it was stolen as well. I'll admit that. But they were really, really big philanthropists with all this stuff.

And they were never,

Simone Collins: Your family gave a lot, and a lot more than I think is even normal among people who are wealthy, certainly not the minimum required for taxes or whatever.

Malcolm Collins: They were, they were never involved in a major scandal. The only major scandal I could find, or lawsuit I could find, was an individual who was killed by a robber and they didn't pay out to his family.

You can ask why didn't they pay out to his family. Because he had stopped paying premiums um, and they, the court decided in their favor and said, yeah, you don't pay to somebody who stopped paying premiums. What are you talking about?

Simone Collins: Yeah, that seems like a fair deal.

Malcolm Collins: And then they're like, well, certainly, you know, your dad wouldn't have been a generally good guy outside of this.

Well, he did win a 10 Young Outstanding Americans Award to recognize his honor and not just building lots of jobs for this country, but in dot like one day, [00:15:00] like the level of heroism of this guy is hard to overstate. There was a storm on Lake Texarkana one day and he was out sailing and turned into like a big squall and there were no other boats out there and he had none of the safety rigging on his boat

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx): He had none of the rigging on his boat because he had

already started to take down the boat for the end of the season and was just doing one final sale around the lake before going in.

Malcolm Collins: and a big yacht thing started sinking and it turned out it was a party boat.

And so he goes and swims out from a sailboat without lines and rigging except for the ones for the sails to save everyone on the boat. He could easily

Simone Collins: have died trying to save them. It's insane that he did this. It's amazing.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: And to clarify this wasn't like something he did before he was a rich person running. And insurance company. This is something he did while he was in the position of CEO of the insurance company.

Malcolm Collins: You, you, this is the point I'm making. It's not like You can't be a good person and run a company in an industry adjacent to this.

By the way, if you're [00:16:00] wondering the the tricks to making money in the industry, like the reason my family did well in the industry, cause you're like, wait, how could they possibly have done well? If they tried to do everything ethically they had two big innovations. One was that you would get.

Yeah. Stock in the insurance company when you paid your premiums which motivated selling to your friends and stuff like that and the other was and they were the first people I think to ever do that to like give stock in exchange for for buying stuff and then the other thing that they did was the primary sales tactic that they use, which is that life insurance is non taxed. And so for specific wealthy individuals, they could sell it to them and say that this gets around the, the tax that your estate would otherwise get when you die. Because it's an asset that's owned by the in person.

And this is a strategy my dad actually developed because before he was allowed to run the company, He had to go out and be a salesperson and he actually became the best salesperson in the company And that's what gave the board his dad didn't want him taking over the right to put him in and [00:17:00] get rid of his own dad.

Simone Collins: That's so cool. Wow. I didn't I didn't know that

Malcolm Collins: But the point i'm making here more broadly Is you don't have to be like I am not against rich people I am not against ultra capitalists people know I stand for people like elon all the time on this show I have no animosity to this guy because he won in a capitalist system.

I have animosity and moral questions because the core way he won was by taking money from people he was killing.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and he could have Done so many things to maximize shareholder profit that didn't involve that. He could have reduced bureaucratic bloat. He could have automated more. He could have streamlined his systems.

He could have made the company operate better. And there's a lot of things we, we use United healthcare as our insurance provider, and I can tell from just my customer perspective, that there's a lot they can do better from an ops. standpoint, and that's not what he was doing to maximize. It

Malcolm Collins: wasn't that he wasn't focused on signaling as a company.

What a good guy they were. While they [00:18:00] might have been denying your kids cancer treatment or your grandma's, you know, heart surgery, they were voluminously providing puberty blockers to underage kids. Are you kidding me?

Simone Collins: Oh boy, okay.

Speaker: It's not about money. It's about sending a message.

Malcolm Collins: Wow. And this is where it gets interesting in terms of the fallout and reaction to this.

I think many on the left are beginning to realize that they are the party that's protecting oligarchs and they are surprised about this. Like Taylor Lorenz, the person who docs, lives of TikTok and an absolutely garbage person, has been Cheering about this over and over and over again on her profile and blue sky and just getting absolutely dunked upon Even on reddit and i'll put a story here moderators have been deleting threads as doctors torch dead united healthcare ceo and people on these lefty platforms are like wait, why why are our leaders?

Hiding anything that [00:19:00] presents any sort of a moral argument around this. And I think that they're like, I hope some of them wake up and they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are we the bad guys? Are, are, are we the ones who are supporting the oligarchs who are killing children? Are we the ones who are that callous with human life?

So long as you follow the deep States rules, so long as you aren't a threat to the existing order, are we the ones who enabled all of this with Obamacare to begin with? But

I've just noticed something. Have you looked at our caps recently? Our caps? The badges on our caps. Have you looked at them? What? No. A bit.

They've got skulls on them. Have you noticed that our caps have actually got little pictures of skulls on them? I don't, uh Hans.

[00:20:00] Are we the baddies?

Malcolm Collins: I'll get into more specific because it is really hard to say, like, as you said, we'll get into the specifics of what this guy did that there weren't other ways he could have pursued increasing profits. Specifically, his strategy was just to deny more customers. And and to make it much, much harder to get things paid for.

But I want to hear your thoughts because you went into this telling me, Malcolm, do not make an argument that this is morally acceptable. Malcolm, do not make an argument that this is morally acceptable. Are you at all persuaded?

Speaker 16: This is nothing more than a salty slab of justice jerky. Cut and dry So, you know, case closed. They say we, uh, I'll skip this trial thingy and go home.

Simone Collins: Listen, I hear what you're saying, but I'm also concerned about legal liability.

And if someone who's a documented fan of ours goes on and assassinates some other leading unethical figure. I don't know. Maybe there's a lawsuit in there, and I don't want to deal with that. So, I want to make it [00:21:00] very clear that we are officially saying it is a very bad idea to ever assassinate someone, no matter how justified it is, no matter how logical it is.

Don't do it. We told you to not do it. If anyone says that you told us, or that we told you to do it, they're lying. Because we're not, and this is a video of us saying that.

Speaker 16: Okay, what is trying to say is that,

Speaker 17: is that, uh, we believe that truth and justice will prevail, that the system works, and, uh, we have faith in the system. When do I get to hit him again?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I would say that it is illegal to do, right? Like, it's definitely, it's super illegal and that I like that I live in a country where if this guy is caught, he would face the death penalty for this.

, and people can be like, Wait, how could something be both something where you're like, well, there is an ethical question at hand here. And you're okay with the guy who did this facing the death penalty. If you are going to take justice into your own hands like this, you should be so certain that you are doing [00:22:00] the right thing, that you are willing to die for it.

Simone Collins: Wait, and that's, yeah, that is, that is how breaking the law works. And that's how most people should be thinking about teaching their kids about laws is that. Laws are price tags. A speeding ticket is a price tag. Sometimes it's worth it to pay that price tag. The death penalty is a price tag. And life in prison is a price tag.

You should be aware of the price tags associated with breaking various laws. And don't see it as just like either don't do it or do do it. It's a trade off.

Malcolm Collins: Here's the problem with this particular price tag in this instance. It may have been cheesed. We don't know, and we'll get into this in a second, we don't know if the guy who killed him didn't have a terminal illness.

He may have been the one who is dying and being denied his claims.

Simone Collins: That's true. Well, and that, yeah that makes, that makes terminally ill people very dangerous when it comes to assassinations. Because their price tag is very different what you're going to do.

Malcolm Collins: And for people who want to push back on this and be like, no, you should never break the law.

You should never do this. I ask you a question. Would you murder [00:23:00] Hitler? If Hitler was rising to power in your country, Would you murder Hitler? Almost every sane person is gonna say, I would murder Hitler, right? And I'd be like, well, murdering Hitler was against the law, and they're like, yeah, but he was gonna kill a bunch of people in the future.

And I'm like, well, what's the number of people for you wear this tips? Like, when is it okay? How many people did

Simone Collins: see that? This is the thing. This is the trolley problem again, is I think the vast majority of people, no matter how many people they could save are not willing to pull that lever and personally be responsible for death, even if they're active killing someone or multiple people.

Saves more people. They're just most people are not willing to. I can't. I don't know what percentage it is, but

Malcolm Collins: it's not being willing to, unless the situation is absolutely demonstrable because we, as individuals do not have good vision into these things. No, well, that's

Simone Collins: why it's

Malcolm Collins: the

Simone Collins: trolley problem, though, that that is supposed to [00:24:00] be in demonstrable situations where you see the trolley and, you know.

Malcolm Collins: The point I'm making here and the reason why I would generally be against something like this is because you don't know, you don't have insight to, is this person really responsible for? Yeah, no, that's,

Simone Collins: and that's my whole thing is even if he's the one making the call, he's going to be replaced by someone else who does this.

That's where I'm like, I don't know if this is going to make a difference. Do you think they would do it as brazenly? I think they'd do it as brazenly with a lot of security. They'd never be out in public. Without a lot of security, maybe a bulletproof vest. Yeah, I

Malcolm Collins: kind of feel like we as a society are getting to a point right now where, and I feel like this is what we saw was the Trump election, where the average American who's been stepped on by the system over and over and over and over again, it's just like, where are our, our great CEOs anymore?

Where are the great. You know, meaningful.

Simone Collins: Look at who's leading. And I mean, Ramaswamy, Donald Trump. I mean, a [00:25:00] lot of people, he was elected originally in the election because they were like, I think he's a great CEO. I think he's a great businessman and I want him to run the country. I think that CEOs have.

Yeah, and this is always been

Malcolm Collins: this is the point I'm making when I say where are they they're in this administration They are the ones that have been targeted by the deep state Targeted by the urban monoculture. They are the ones who have been othered and made evil while people like this are held up as paragons By the urban monoculture.

Oh my god You cannot feel anything other than horror and shame that this person was killed, is what they say. And I, and then people will argue to me, they'll say something like, Well, how, how can you decide, like, morality on your own? One person on Discord is like, how can you decide what's good and what's bad?

On your own.

Speaker 27: Figuring things out for yourself is the only freedom anyone really has. Use that freedom. Make up your own mind, Rico.

Malcolm Collins: And I was like, well, like my logic, like thinking through [00:26:00] this. And then the individual was like, but your logic you, you can't make like a logical argument about what's right and wrong.

At the end of the day, you're just creating like one overriding deontological rule when you do that, you know, it's, you're still using logic to create an arbitrary judgment. And I'm like, well, here's the problem with that argument. If, if you deny my ability to choose what's logic, what's moral based on my logic, using your logic, you have lost the argument.

Mm-hmm. Because you have used logic to deny Logic's ability to determine what's right and wrong.

Speaker 30: You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir.

Malcolm Collins: Fun fact. , Steve Davis, the guy who was the architect of the Twitter layoffs. Did a real life Willy Wonka style giveaway of his first company. You Gotto. Ending up selling it for $1.

, expect to hear more about this guy in the near future.

But a great example of how you can be a good inefficient CEO was out killing children.

Mm-hmm . [00:27:00] Um, But. It's, it's, it's worse than that because I don't think that any sane person sitting down is going to be like killing probably at least dozens of people every month, if not every day people who are paying you, people who are innocent.

That's a bad thing, right? Like that, that's a thing that you would want stopped in some way. And you might be right that this does nothing to stop it and the cycle just continues. But I guess what I'm saying is, is like I did it. And people were also shocked when I said that with another potential assassination video where I was like, I, and in the other case, I disagreed with the guy.

But at least I could empathize with where he was coming from. In this particular instance, if it had been my kids or my wife, I, as a third party, I'm saying no, like horrible, don't do this. But I have the luxury to say that because I didn't watch my wife slowly die over the course of two to three years at the hands of somebody who is taking my [00:28:00] money and spending it on luxury.

The plane flights and 10, 000, 000 salaries.

Simone Collins: Yeah. 10, 000, 000. What do you even do with that much money? That's insane.

Malcolm Collins: And by the way, this is what somebody says who works in this industry. They go, I've dealt with United healthcare for years, doing a peer to peer reviews, trying to overturn their systemic refusal to authorize covered benefits.

This Brian Thompson was a criminal who led a criminal enterprise. This company is responsible for untold harm and deaths to their customers. Brian had it coming. I will sleep better tonight. This is something day in, day out. This is their job. , now I'm going to go into what actually happened with the assassination.

We can go over the suspects and then we're going to go into the argument. That Brian Thompson had many other ways he could have excessive extracted profit from the company and chose not to explore them and shows to just basically kill people in a way that I don't even think was long term sustainable.

I think United Healthcare will long term suffer [00:29:00] unsustainably. Abusive way he was treating his customers. And there's evidence of that as well.

Simone Collins: So he even wasn't long term maximizing shareholder profit. He was just, he

Malcolm Collins: wasn't, he was short term maxing it to get a sellout. And then he sold 30 percent of his shares in the company as soon as they were under investigation.

Simone Collins: He did

Malcolm Collins: without telling the investors. So he didn't even practice fiduciary responsibility. Remember?

Simone Collins: Oh, no. Okay. Gosh, this just gets worse and worse.

Malcolm Collins: Brian Thompson, the 50 year old CEO of UnitedHealthcare, was fatally shot and attacked on Wednesday, December 4th, 2024, in midtown Manhattan, New York City. It was previously reported that the suspect used a city bike, which can be tracked, but the NYPD has clarified the incident did not involve that type of bike.

The suspect had waited at the nearby corner all night until the executive walked by, according to witnesses. People knew he was going to be there because he was going to a shareholder's meeting. And this, I think, blocks for me, a lot of people have been like, Oh, this was a professional [00:30:00] assassin. How did he know where the guy was going to be?

How did he know what door he was going to be using? How did he happen to be there at just the right time? He wasn't there at just the right time. He was waiting there all night long.

He that is not something I think a professional assassin would have done. He was using public information to find the guy.

It was public information that he was going to speak at this shareholder meeting. And we'll get into more in just a second. Witnesses told reporters they heard three shots as he was parking a car in the area. The, the, Three shots are actually really important because it tells you a part of how this was premeditated that the news hasn't caught on to yet for some reason.

Um,, just to go over a map here that I'll put on screen this is a little out of date, but at 6. 44 AM, the victim was walking alone towards the New York Hilton Midtown after exiting his hotel across the street. Now Yeah, this is actually right near where we used to do our morning walks and everything in in Manhattan, Simone.

So you would have seen this if you're on a morning walk. You remember what the streets are like at around 6 24 a. m. They're pretty empty. A lot of people have acted like this is [00:31:00] midday.

Simone Collins: Yeah, there's just a decent number of early morning commuters. Basically all the working class people are out and then The early risers of the white collar workers are out to it's, it's not totally unpopulated.

Malcolm Collins: Shooter then runs into an alleyway between 54th street and 55th street. Then that's where we always

Simone Collins: stay is on 55th street. So this is exactly where we know everything.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Then the shooter who was lying in wait alongside the building fires at him. Once at 55th Street, the shooter continues to walk onto 6th Avenue where he gets on an electric city bike.

This part is wrong, by the way. And then the shooter rides north on 36th Avenue towards Central Park. And then he disappeared at 6 48 a. m. in Central Park.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: So just four minutes after the shooting, he was disappearing in Central Park.

Simone Collins: So efficient. So he shoots him, gets on a bike.

Malcolm Collins: Right. No, he didn't get on a bike.

People got that wrong and they might've been tracking the wrong person. [00:32:00] Oh, wow. That's what the NYPD is saying right now. So

Simone Collins: on foot, he went to Central Park.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe, or maybe that's tracking the guy who was on the bike who appears in one image, but appears to have not been the suspect. Just another guy with a backpack like the suspects.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-4: New piece of information that came out this morning, is it found that the suspect using a fake New Jersey driver's license? Came into Manhattan on a Greyhound bus.

Malcolm Collins: The suspect was wearing like a mask that didn't even look conspicuous. It looked like what you would wear on a cold day in New York,

In a hoodie that looked like what you would wear on a cold day in, in New York.

Yeah.

He was wearing a black hoodie and black pants with a gray backpack and he approached Thompson from behind, and you can watch the video of this, and he shot him once in the leg the gun then doesn't cycle, it does not jam, as some reports have said, it doesn't cycle, he does what you do when a gun doesn't cycle And this, the reason it didn't cycle is likely because he was using both a silencer and subsonic ammo.

And it appears that the person had practiced enough [00:33:00] to expect this to happen. He taps the gun a few times. Re does, I don't know that much about fixing a gun like this. Re does, I think, like, re cocks it and then shoots again. But what I do know is this caused live ammunition to come out of the gun.

Gun, so a lot of people say there was three casings at the scene But there was also three live bullets found at the scene now this becomes Interesting because on the casings slash live bullets was written three words The words were and we'll get into the potential meaning of these in a second Deny, defend, depose.

Now, where this gets interesting is he only shot three times. So he didn't know, he didn't expect the gun to jam like this. Which meant some of the words would have been on the jammed bullets, which would have come out before the shell cases. Which meant that he went into this planning to shoot three [00:34:00] times to create this message.

Wow. For, for some reason, the three shots had a significant to this guy.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and that, that implies heavily, like you were saying that he's not a hit man. This is personal. Unless I, cause it seems like a big ask if I'm hiring a hit man to also demand in such a high maintenance fashion that you must also inscribe on the bullets, my special message.

I mean, that would be an added fee if

Malcolm Collins: So experts suggest the shooter's actions indicate that he may be a practiced and seasoned trained professional killer, possibly with law or military experience. However what is not believed, which is interesting is that he was a professional hitman. This does not appear to be a hitman to me. Everything was possible with public information.

And the way that he waited all night at the location just doesn't seem very hitmany to me. Also, the three bullets. To me, seeing symbolic of [00:35:00] something, . Well,

Simone Collins: since there's something written on them, otherwise I was assuming, I don't know where I heard this, but I heard somewhere that in standard police training, you are told to shoot chest chest head when you're trying to.

Malcolm Collins: Maybe. He also, I mean, a very non Hitman y thing is he was videoed at a local Starbucks buying stuff beforehand. Oh,

Simone Collins: what did he get?

Malcolm Collins: Egg bites? He dropped a water bottle and cell phone that are believed to be dropped by the suspect and they're checking for DNA. Oh, no. And, Oh, that's so bad.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's great.

I want to know what he ordered.

Malcolm Collins: let's talk about the three words because I've read a number of potential things that they could have met.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Deny this could refer to the denial of insurance claims or coverage by UnitedHealthcare. This is, I asked, A. I would have thought defend. This term may relate to the company's efforts to defend its policies or practices, possibly against criticism or legal challenges to pose in a legal context.

It's often means to give sworn testimony. It could indicate [00:36:00] that the shooter wanted Thomas for questioning or accountability. I do not buy that. Some people have claimed that this is a sign that it was somebody trying to keep him from giving damning evidence during the deposition that he was about to go to. And it was like assigned by other people in the healthcare industry. I highly doubt that this is the case. Just given how hard it would be for a random wealthy person to hire a hitman that actually doesn't really happen that much.

Even when you look at something like Epstein I won't say that I might have inside information into that but If I did one of the Middle Eastern ruling families which would have access to Hitman very easily and one of the ones who was known to have used Hitman in the past and so there wouldn't have been any trouble for them doing this.

But if you're like a random other insurance company CEO, would you really risk hiring a Hitman? Like that's That's wildly risky for something that was a security violation, not even questioning like their record or [00:37:00] anything like that.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-5: And I note here that the payout from this lawsuit was going to be $5 million. That's what was expected. And the articles I read this guy's salary was $10 million a year. Do you really think he's going to be assassinated over a $5 million lawsuit?

Malcolm Collins: Now the, the one that I have found to be most powerful in terms of the arguments as to what this was about, is it specifically written in reference to a book?

So the book is called delay, deny, defend, which is about how corrupt the insurance industry is. And it's the most famous book about how corrupt the insurance industry is. And about what the three D's mean. Delay insurance companies intentionally slow down claim processing by requesting extensive documentation, creating technicalities, or declaring claims under investigation.

This tactic benefits insurers by allowing them to hold onto money longer for investment gains and exhausting claimants into giving up. So for [00:38:00] people who don't understand this, a company on average even if they're only extending the amount, the length that they have the money, like by four months or three months, They get additional money from it because the money makes money for them over time.

So they have a reason just to delay. It doesn't matter if you're suffering. It doesn't matter if your relatives are dying. Deny claims are

Simone Collins: better if they're dead. Cause they won't bother you anymore. So

Malcolm Collins: wait them out. If you can delay until they die, you don't have to pay it out. Deny claims are often outright rejected, sometimes based on arbitrary or fabricated reasons hidden in the fine print.

Denials discourage claimants from continuing to pursue their rights and defend. If delay and deny fail, insurers might aggressively defend against claims in court. This tactic prolongs resolution and burdens claimants with legal costs and time, deterring many from pursuing valid claims.

Simone Collins: It's just another way to delay.

And make it extra expensive to do so.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so what's interesting is the last word. So if [00:39:00] it was in reference to this, He's saying, basically, you delayed, you denied, I depose.

If the standard is delay, deny, defend, what he's basically attempting to do with this is rewrite the last part of this.

Simone Collins: You delayed, you denied, I depose with my bullets. Well, goodness.

Malcolm Collins: So, if, if you're wondering what I was talking about earlier he was big on DEI integration in his company. He was a big supporter of LGBTQ plus communities offering gender reform and care to minors.

He created a workforce diversity group that implemented DEI focused strategies. For underrepresented groups like a, the DEI executive sponsorship [00:40:00] program to give an unfair advantage to anyone in a protected class within the company. They also did training seminars and stuff like that, and the company gave 100, 000, 000.

Dollars to diversity initiatives instead of to your dying family members not ideal. Okay so now we're going to go into the. Argument that what he was doing was above and beyond and not normal for someone in his position Which I think is important if he was just acting like everyone else in the industry I'd be like look this is an industry problem, right?

Not a he specifically was an extra evil person problem So UnitedHealthcare had the highest claim rate among major health insurance companies with approximately 32 percent of claims being denied. If you look at other insurers, Ansem is 23%, Aetna is 20%, CareSource is 20%, Millenia is 19%.

Simone Collins: We've had UnitedHealthcare mostly uninterrupted for the past [00:41:00] seven plus years.

And it's been awful. We had one six month period where just I was on Aetna and I felt like I lived in a different world

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I remember that keep in mind how bad this is. Kaiser Permanente the largest health insurance company Only denies seven percent.

Simone Collins: Oh, that's why people are so obsessed with Kaiser.

I've always wondered around about that We we know a decent number of people Cause I think Kaiser is a big insurer in California who, despite leaving the state choose to maintain residency in California, which means paying at California state tax, which is insanely high just to maintain their Kaiser insurance.

Because that is, it's just, it's financially worth it at that point, considering how much they cover. You can't leave. Basically it's the golden handcuffs of insurance.

Malcolm Collins: Remember this guy came in in 2021.

Simone Collins: Okay. again.

Malcolm Collins: When he came in in 2021, the company only [00:42:00] denied post acute care by 10.

9%.

Oh, they were great when he started.

Yeah, it was 22. 7%. Now obviously went up from there, but this is just one category. Yeah, they were almost as good as Kaiser Permanente when he started. Oh my god. Um, In 2022 uh, UnitedHealthcare denied prior authorized requests for post acute care at rates that were three times higher than the denial rates for all other types of prior authorization requests.

Ooh! This, it is, it is not true! At all an exaggeration to say this person's leadership and choices were killing, I think, if you're talking about 57 million people under care, probably dozens of people a day.

Simone Collins: Honestly, it's hard for me to deny this considering those numbers. That is damning. Yeah, that's really bad.

Malcolm Collins: I, I thought you might start to change your mind as this episode [00:43:00] goes on. Yeah. I went into this being like, no, the public shouldn't have a right to just shoot a rich guy because he's corrupt. They shouldn't have a right. To shoot a person because his company, you know, maybe dump toxic waste somewhere.

And then that ended up causing some issue in a community or something like maybe he didn't have any say in those particular policies. Maybe he had no ability to know that was happening. I know our employees have done ethical. Unethical stuff that we've tried to stop in the past. That is not the case here.

This guy specifically transformed the company in an unethical direction In a way that melts more profits by killing people and we'll go over just how much more profits he was able to rake in as well

Simone Collins: I have to say when I first saw the news, I misread and thought that the headline was Brian Johnson. Oh, that would be so

Malcolm Collins: bad. Nice guy.

Simone Collins: That's like driving over the Nazca Lines. Like, he's trying to live forever, okay? He's doing a big human experiment here.

Don't, like, don't. You know, it's just a beautiful thing. Don't [00:44:00] mess it up. Like, let him try. Don't drive over the Nazca Lines. Don't deface the Washington Monument. You know, don't, don't. Trample around giant sequoia trees that are, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years old and don't kill Brian Johnson, you know?

But this is a little different.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So he came in in 2021. So if you're looking at their gross profits, you can see they were growing slightly before this. Okay. So 2020 67 billion and then 2021 69. 65 billion. So if you look at like before he came into power, it was growing from like 67 billion one year to 69.

65 billion. The next that sounds like normal management, right? He comes in. It goes from 69. 65 billion to 79. 62 billion, and then the next year it's 90. 9 billion. Oh, wow. I mean,

Simone Collins: okay, are there any other things he did? [00:45:00] They could have boosted. It's aside from denying. I mean, the percentage of denied care does seem to go up.

No, no, we're going to figure out how we really justify as well.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. In 2023, they grew 12. 7 percent year over year. If you're a CEO, you know that's not normal.

Simone Collins: That is not.

Malcolm Collins: That's like you're doing something amazing, not at a company like this, not at like a basic insurance company. Yeah,

Simone Collins: not, not, yeah, yeah, maybe in a, a, a growth phase startup for sure.

That is to be expected. Not at, yeah, not at UnitedHealthcare.

Malcolm Collins: I'm just going to drop in another random anecdote here. Somebody saying, even though I pay for a top tier plan with UnitedHealthcare, they sent my daughter a letter explaining that they denied a claim for a one night stay at a hospital that literally saved her life.

Also, my daughter was four years old at the time and the letter was addressed to her. Oh, okay. [00:46:00] Sorry, little girl, a little little four year old. It's a little shame that you didn't die. We were hoping that that would because you don't pay your under your father's plan. It's demonstrably good for them if the four year old dies.

Because she's not paying for health care. So, oh, I don't want to go into the insider trading allegations. No, I

Simone Collins: mean, keep in mind, like, parents pay their kids premiums. It costs extra to have a kid on your plan. They're being paid for.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, do kids cost extra? I thought that kids Oh,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

Malcolm Collins: you pay for your kids.

Simone Collins: Kids cost extra kids. Remember

Malcolm Collins: I was talking about that AI that was making mistakes.

Huh.

So the lawyer alleges that the United healthcare knew the algorithms had an extremely high error rate and that it denied patients claims knowing only a tiny percentage. 0. 2 percent would file appeals to try to overturn the insurer's decisions.

The complete legends of the algorithm dubbed NH predict has a 90 percent error rate based on a calculation on the percentage of [00:47:00] payment denials reversed through internal appeals processes or administrative law judge rulings. So. It had an error rate, the AI that they were using to deny people of 90 percent false positive.

That

Simone Collins: makes so much sense. I mean, consider that a lot of companies build off this business model, right? They get you to sign up for the free trial and assume that you'll never check your subscriptions and keep paying for them until you discover five years later that you've never used them and you don't want to pay for them.

And I'll admit when we get bills, you know, and we've been denied coverage for things, I don't have the time. To spend pushing back for months and getting on the phone and constantly calling. And we, there are people I know who do but also their home homekeepers of like their, their homemakers, I should say like their, their full job is to take care of the family and the home and the family's finances.

If that, if I had that. Luxury. Maybe I could, but like it is, it is a job [00:48:00] to do that. And you, our family can't do that. I imagine most families don't have a full time person at home to manage the home's finances and bills and to fight back on behalf of the family to do things like this. Similarly, for example, with you know, how there are these do not call lists that technically you shouldn't be called by spammers.

You can actually pursue them, you know, get on the line, find out who they are, and then make legal claims against them and actually make a decent amount of money. Like this one stay at home dad who makes this his, like, side hustle, isn't he? He, like, finds them and he gets money from them breaking rules.

But, again, that is a Decent investment of time. And unless you are only part time employed or mostly at home caring for kids or family or on your own, just handling a household, then you can't do it. So that, I mean, it's a, I guess I should say it's a smart business model because you can depend on most people not having the resources to fight back,

Speaker 8: Well, hello there! [00:49:00] Looking to get some insurance? No, my friend's mom already has insurance with your company. Oh, great! You're here to pay your bill. No, no, oh, you want money from us? Right through that door over there.

Speaker 9: Hello.

Speaker 11: Let me, let me just speak with our medical director

Speaker 9: first.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 12: Who was that? That was the medical director.

Speaker 13: But you didn't say who the patient was wrong with him.

Speaker 12: Right. The medical director's job is just to say no.

Speaker 13: Look, my friend's mom has been paying you people for years

Speaker 14: I didn't realize I was dealing with someone who had so much determination. If you do a little more work,

so all you have to do is navigate the American healthcare system.

Speaker 15: These forms. I just, I just spoke about the last

Speaker 9: place.

Speaker 15: It's so much fun to be getting it done.

We go back to the doc to get that thing fixed. We're filling out forms, and we're scanning those forms And then we're emailing those forms to get [00:50:00] them back to insurance

Simone Collins: but that's really evil to like make a company that promises services.

And then banks on the fact that your customers will not have the wherewithal to fight back when you mistreat them. Especially

Malcolm Collins: when those services are life saving.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It's one thing if you're giving them shoddy light fixtures or, you know, low thread count sheets that aren't as good as you promised, or your clothing falls apart after three washes.

This is, you're right, people's lives. That is horrible.

Malcolm Collins: When you hear about the little kid. Going through chemotherapy, being denied nausea medication.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That's Like, are you just like That's sick. It's sick. Yeah. It's sick in the extreme. It's like, w w w when I compare this guy to Nazis, it's like Himmler experiments and stuff like that.

It's like, It's sick. It's sick. It's sick. Really, and they would regularly [00:51:00] deny pain medication if the pain lasted longer than it was supposed to. This was another thing they got in trouble for a lot, that they would just turn off anesthesia if the person felt pain longer than the, like, minimal supposed period they were supposed to be feeling it.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-6: And this is part of what makes me so mad when people are like, well, you should be handling this through the legal system. You know, let the laws handle this. They were breaking the laws. United healthcare face a department of labor lawsuit for denying claims based solely on diagnosis codes, rather than patient need violating the employee retirement income security act. E R I S a, but then went back to doing that after the case. , in fact, the us Senate subcommittee has scolded United healthcare for denying prior authorized requests for extensive post acute care at three times the rate of other such requests.

Speaker 41: I'm sorry, but the

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-6: us Senate subcommittee must be firm with you. Or else. Or else what? Or [00:52:00] else, we will be very, very angry with you. And we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are.

Speaker 40: Good.

Speaker 42: How you like that, you f****n c********r? You have any idea how f****n busy I am, Osbricks? Well, f**k you! Congratulations, Team America! You have stopped nothing.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-6: And keep in mind, this denial was being done by an AI, which got it wrong, 90% of the time.

And the company knew that and kept using it.

Malcolm Collins: So no, it was, it was horrifying what they were doing. And this is what I'd ask people who want to push back on this a lot on me.

Speaker 35: Now, do I sound like a f*****g maniac?

Malcolm Collins: Right. I, I, I ask because they're like, how dare you say that we should live in a society where. If somebody has their family murdered by a legal [00:53:00] mass murderer that they should be able to go to a store, buy a gun, and assassinate that person, and then face the death penalty for that.

Like, what a horrifying society that would be to live in. I'm like, b***h, that's the society the Founding Fathers created. That's the society you're living in right now. What you're forgetting is the last part of what you just said. And then face the death penalty for it. I'm not okay with this being legalized or something, I'm just saying that I also am not saying that if you, if you look at the like vast weight of this, and this is right about somebody who really pushes me back.

How many additional people do you need to have very strong evidence a person is going to kill? Before, because clearly you're like, okay, Hitler is okay. So where did you draw the line? How many people do an individual's decisions need to lead to dying with them knowing that that is the outcome of their decisions?[00:54:00]

Before you're like, okay, this is where I react and some people never react many people, you know in germany They just went along with it to the end I know that that's not who my family is. I know that when the south seceded from the union over slavery as I mentioned before 15 of the 50 founding members of the free state of jones were direct relatives of mine either siblings of a ancestor of mine or kids of siblings of an ancestor of mine So when the south is like we're gonna fight for slavery.

My family was like no f**k you. We'll kill you we're gonna start in separate states And we'll kill all of you. I don't care what you're fighting for. I don't care that you say it's the law. It's immoral.

Speaker 18: You won't miss this, though.

[00:55:00]

Speaker 19: I knew you were dead.

Malcolm Collins: And some people just aren't built that way. And I think that fundamentally the type of person who sees something like this and is like, No, what the shooter did was demonstrably wrong in every way it could conceivably be looked at.

These are the types of people who support Hitler because he rose to power legally. He rose to power as an elected official. These are the people who, when the camps start, they're like, well, it's all being done through legal means. You know, there is nothing to them that is unethical other than what is said to them.

What is said by the local authority. That defines their ethical system. [00:56:00] And they're not able to say, oh and so I say to this person, everybody who wants to push back on me on this, I want one thing. In your reply where you're pushing back to me, I want you to define the difference between if you would have now you can say in your reply, I would have been not done anything about Hitler's right to power, not done anything about it at all.

But if you're the type of person who thinks that you would have tried to stop it. Or even stop it after it started. After the Holocaust camps were going and every additional day meant more people were dying, what's the number of people for you that have to differentially die because this person stays alive?

What's the number? Like, what's the difference in Hitler between this guy for you?

Simone Collins: Well, I would also observe that if people begin to feel like they're living through societal collapse, and that if a crime is committed against them, or if they are wronged in some way, there's no recourse, vigilante justice is going to fill that void.

And we [00:57:00] are starting to get to that point. I think things may start to break soon where there's so much shoplifting. There's so much petty crime. That's not being prosecuted. There is so much of this feeling. And again, like when there were gunshots outside our house, nobody. In our immediate vicinity who heard them called the police because why would police come?

We just this this guy

Malcolm Collins: lives if he called the police, they'd come. They'd come.

Simone Collins: They'd come because he's rich. Yeah. Well, that's but I think what I'm saying is if the average citizen. Feels like they have no legal recourse. If they were to fight a big company like this, they have no, no protection from the law, if they're personally at risk, then when it comes to things like them feeling physically threatened, personally threatened, or seriously wronged by businesses, they will take justice into their own hands after they've reached a breaking point.

And [00:58:00] maybe you're right. Maybe we're reaching a tipping point in society, not just where people are That there's kind of a moral calculus that makes the price worth it for them, but also reaching a point at which they feel like they genuinely have no other choice, because what used to be a viable pathway to pursue justice through legal avenues.

Is no longer there that the, the justice system doesn't serve anyone, but the extremely wealthy anymore. And for them, it's just a series of

Malcolm Collins: the, the, the, the deep state bureaucrats. I mean, if you look at the Trump sentencing where, where, you know, everyone going on about how he's a felon and as we've pointed out, he got a felon for not labeling his prostitute hush money payments as prostitute hush money payments.

Like, like in his tax filings they're like, Oh, this is. That's insane. That's insane that you would, you would give someone a felony for that. Especially when you consider that we know that Kamala Harris husband also was paying hush money [00:59:00] payments to the nanny for having knocked her up. What, Housekeeper, do you think that he was labeling those correctly?

No. So why did, is Trump a felon and Kamala's husband not a felon? It's because Trump is at odds with the deep state bureaucracy. This isn't about the rich versus the poor. This is about those against the oligarchs and the bureaucrats who, for example, I love that the Dems pretend like Elon Musk is some sort of like insider oligarch guy.

No, they hate him. If Camilla had won, his company would have been out of power. They were denying the Starter with his spaceship company thing over like, well if it comes down it might hit a whale.

It

Simone Collins: might

Malcolm Collins: hit a shark. Oh,

Simone Collins: the whale, the whale debacle. Yeah, spaceX,

Malcolm Collins: Malcolm. SpaceX. SpaceX, yeah, it might hit a whale, it might hit a shark.

It's like, wha You you you know that this is just a bureaucrat trying to take down another person. They And you know that, okay, they're like, well, now Elon Musk is running the government, right? Like now he's running an [01:00:00] apartment was yeah, but he created a sundown on this department. He's running itself dissolves before this administration is even over.

He's not trying to create inter institutional power in the way that the deep state did in the way that it protected these oligarchs time and time again. There's a reason why Camilla Rose. Raised over three times as much as Trump. In this last election cycle. There's what was it over a billion dollars?

She wasted on her campaign Yeah,

Simone Collins: the

Malcolm Collins: reports did not look great, but I I do agree with you We do not condone this action. This man was a monster and a very very very bad person I'm just trying to like, go through the ethics of a decision like this, because I think that when I look at the other places this has been talked about, everyone's like, it's obviously unethical because it's against the law.

And I'm like, whoa. Oh yeah.

Simone Collins: And no, [01:01:00] laws are about maintaining social order and they work on average, but not always

Malcolm Collins: the same. People are like, obviously what the insurance guy was doing was ethical because it was within the law. And it's like, well, I mean, obviously, sometimes laws are wrong, right? Like, I don't think the insurance guy should have been allowed to run his company the way he was running it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I think that that was horrifying that that was happening. Like, do you think that people should just be going around doing vigilante justice? No, no, but I do think that people should stop Hitler. So it's like, where's the line, right? Like how bad does the person need to be before you need a Batman?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Did Batman ever pursue corrupt capitalists in the shows or movies? Trying to think.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, Superman certainly did with Lex Luthor. [01:02:00] Okay. I actually want to see an episode. I'll see if I can find an episode. If I can't find one, maybe somebody can talk about it in the comments. Where the villain in a superhero show was doing everything legally.

Simone Collins: Ah, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: that's the key. How do they handle this when the person is murdering people legally?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I just, I just personally, I'm, I'm like, I keep going through because so many people in the comments and read it and stuff, they were sharing stories about how like they watched their life slowly die as her claims kept being denied.

And if I had seen that happen to somebody who I deeply cared about, I watched them slowly die over the course of years. And every day I was sending in claims What would I do

that?

Yeah, you'd lose it. I'd lose it. I'd effing lose it. If somebody, especially knowing that every year I was paying the person who was killing her, paying them on the off.

Hope they might do the right thing this time

that they

were taking money from her [01:03:00] and from me. while watching her die, just so this guy could go on more fancy vacations. Now, I want to talk about who maybe did this. Because a lot of people have pointed out, oh, I think it's the wife. One, they were separated.

And two, she immediately made an announcement that had weird wording, like, we were shattered to hear about. And then, Well, he

Simone Collins: has kids too, right? I mean, Theoretically, the wife and the kids would be shattered.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that they lived in a separate house and everything like that. And there have been rumors that maybe he had started a divorce proceeding.

Now that would have been an absolutely good reason to do something like this. I don't mean like a good, like ethically

Simone Collins: good, No, no, no. But financially logical because yeah, if, if you're getting a divorce, then I'm presumably in all of their estate planning, normally stuff goes to the spouse first. If.

Well, if you look at the

Malcolm Collins: age of the kids who look quite old, these are like like, late teen kids. Okay. To me, that [01:04:00] implies that their marriage must've been at least around 10 years. If you look at when he became CEO, that was in 2021. If you look at when he made most of his money, that was pretty recently.

And they lived in Florida. Now, I happen to be aware of how prenups work in Florida. Oh. And they are extremely strict. Yeah. Even though she got a divorce and they had a prenup, She did nothing. She could literally leave the relationship with exactly the amount of money she brought into the relationship if she was not pregnant.

Simone Collins: Ooh, yikes, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It would be very easy to plant the blame on this guy. You know, she also said some stuff that was like intentionally like sort of hiding that she didn't quite understand how the industry worked when she apparently works at the doctor as well. So she wouldn't have been that poor. I think

she was a doctor.

But you know, she, she said some stuff that looks like she was hiding some things. Here's my thought on this. I think if she was the one who did it, she probably would have done it herself in some way. It's just too hard to hire Hitman safely.

Simone Collins: It's not Especially if you're a doctor. I feel like there are plenty of ways that you will [01:05:00] know to slowly kill someone away in a way that they won't detect.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the way that's not easily detectable by morgues and stuff like that, heart attacks, something like that. If you're a doctor, you have access to the drugs to do that way easier than hiring a hitman. Yes.

Simone Collins: Although, I imagine a lot of people are too cowardly to do it themselves, so.

Malcolm Collins: I'm just saying hiring a hitman is difficult and really dangerous to do because you've got to, how do you even do that?

Like you, you have to know

Simone Collins: like a mob boss. You have to live with the liability of knowing that they know so they could always blackmail you and she would end up with a lot of money. So there'd be an incentive to blackmail her. So yeah, I guess if I were in her place and I wanted to kill my husband, I would find, especially considering her medical knowledge and that she could probably get access to medications.

Yeah. It would make sense for her to do it. Plus the words on the bullets, that just seems so odd. I mean, no, that would have been

Malcolm Collins: a good way to cover it. I mean, your husband's CEO of like an evil company. Oh, so

Simone Collins: [01:06:00] make it look like it was a disgruntled

Malcolm Collins: United Healthcare. It also, this is what I think it was.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: I don't think it was a family member of someone agreed. I think it was a genuine vigilante. Here is why if it was just a family member of someone begrieved, there are a ton of other insurance companies and while they may deny claims pointlessly less amount of the time, if you take them all together, it's probably more, maybe even double the amount that united health denies claims.

So. Why did it happen to be one of them? Why did it happen to be a guy who apparently has never done a good thing in his life, recently defrauded a firefighter's pension and ran a company that he had run super evilly in the time that he ran them in a way that there's like no moral argument to be made in his defense.

I almost get the impression somebody was looking for an excuse to be a vigilante and wanted to play out a superhero role.

Speaker 35: Do you [01:07:00] think I feel good? When after some dude does some atrocious act, that I have to kill them?

You think that gives me pleasure?

No.

Well, it does. No!

Malcolm Collins: And I don't know. I often ask myself, Why haven't there been more vigilante superhero like characters in our society?

Simone Collins: Why haven't there been Isn't there that guy who literally dressed up in superhero costumes?

Malcolm Collins: But I mean, in an entire society that grew up reading superhero books and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Why haven't there been people who just like took a book and said, I'm going to find the most evil person who's getting away with it in this country. And I'm going to do something about it. Now in the superhero movies, it's easy.

Those are crime bosses and stuff like that. In the real world, the FBI is going after crime bosses. You know, the police are going after crime bosses. Yeah. Yeah. You're not going to get after them in the same way that other organizations are. So if you sat down and say, I'm going to be a vigilante,

Simone Collins: who [01:08:00] can't the government or justice department or FBI or CIA get, then you read some book

Malcolm Collins: like the book, this guy likely read and you're like, Oh, and that's the thing.

The book is what gets me. This seems maybe motivated from reading a book where the guy's like, I don't really value my life. And how many People don't value their lives anymore. The amount of, I mean, yeah,

Simone Collins: that's pretty pervasive. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I might be able to incrementally make this better for Dozens to hundreds of families that are watching their loved ones die unnecessarily every month

Simone Collins: or even just provide them with some solace some feeling of justice when I'm sure you know that that when when anyone in your Family is suffering from a terrible illness You kind of feel like the world is just so deeply unfair and the existence of this guy adds insult to injury, maybe it's just one moment of Hey, at least there's that for all these people.

Malcolm Collins: And yeah. And one thing I'd say is I, I do [01:09:00] feel very deeply for the family of everyone. He denied healthcare too. I'm sorry. I, what I'm saying is, look, this guy had kids sad that their dad died, but they're inheriting tens of millions of dollars that they stole from dying people. Are they giving that money back?

Are they giving it to philanthropy? Like my family did? No. So, like, why am I supposed to have an additional amount of sympathy for them? You could say, have they done something wrong? Yes, they've kept the blood diamonds.

Speaker 38: No, this place is uncle Danny's. You and me, we're family. Promise never

Malcolm Collins: they may choose to not do that in the future in which my moral judgment of them will change in the future

But as of now, My moral judgment of them is just neutral you know people have their parents die for nonsense reasons all the time You can't be like oh because this person had kids if he was actively involved in raising the kids fine But he didn't seem to be he was [01:10:00] separated and living in a different house and so I have to say, why do his kids matter so much more than the dozens of other kids that were left parentless every year?

You know, like, explain, like, like, why, why? And so this comment section is going to be a bloodbath. I haven't seen any public figure really come down as harshly on one side of this as I have. I know that this is an unpopular stance. I know that a lot of people will hate me for this dance. I know a lot of wealthy people will hate me for this dance.

But I think that we need to, like, grow a moral backbone as a society again. And say, either, if politicians want to b***h about this, which they have been b******g about people being happy about this, it's like, why didn't you make what he was doing illegal then?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: That's your job, politicians, making this s**t illegal.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-6: we will be very, very angry with you. And we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, there's this huge conversation [01:11:00] about the healthcare industry in the United States anyway. I mean, the fact that we allow the existence of insurance companies that have caused all healthcare costs to balloon as much as they have is, is insane. So, I mean, any policymaker who's morally negatively judging people who are celebrating this assassination should instead be focusing on fixing a very broken healthcare system in the United States.

They're also culpable.

Malcolm Collins: Why on every single Reddit thread I saw about this, which judges like the average opinion of people, Why were they all happy about this? Why everywhere I go online, where it's looking at average sentiment, In the Facebook reacts here, you had 25 K laugh, crying reacts to two K sad, crying reacts.

And 1. 7 K care reacts.

Simone Collins: Oh, dear. I mean, there's a bunch of elements to this, right? There's the anti capitalist element. So a lot of people are just excited because [01:12:00] they hate all capitalists. Anyone who works for, makes money from a large corporation is I believe in decent capital. You're not that person. Yeah. Well,

Malcolm Collins: generations, you can be a capitalist without killing people.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but I mean, I think a lot of people are reacting just to that. And then a lot of other people have experienced. United healthcare and they're for obvious reasons, very happy about that.

It's just, it's messed up. Glad it wasn't Brian Johnson. Cause that scared me for a moment.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I think there are very few people in the world who.

I would be like, Oh, but I like, I'm not sure. Like an example of another group, the people who okayed the and hid how dangerous the they were giving to people was in this country. Oh,

the family

did this. They, they own the companies that did this their companies obscured. That was dangerous.

They got tons of people addicted [01:13:00] to it and they basically single handedly caused the addiction crisis which is bigger than any addiction crisis our country has ever had. You can see our episode on this.

Speaker 47: Vengeance.

Speaker 48: Bruce Wayne? What? Oh my god. What? Yeah, you No. You're Bruce Wayne. How Why could you even say that? Your goatee.

Speaker 46: Maybe I'm just copying Bruce Wayne. Cause he's like, the coolest guy in Gotham. I

Speaker 44: mean, he's not that cool. He's just rich.

Speaker 46: Oh, this is the classic discrimination that handsome billionaires face every day. He doesn't actually have a billion dollars, d*****s. Most of his fortune is invested in Wayne Enterprises.

Speaker 44: And does Wayne Enterprises happen to make dark armored vehicles?

Speaker 46: Yeah, but mostly opioids. Oh my god, really? And [01:14:00] opioid addiction recovery pills.

Speaker 48: Oh my god. You're so stupid. You're a villain. Ha!

Speaker 46: Save your jokes for the Jokester.

Simone Collins: Yeah, they're famously

Malcolm Collins: there are other instances where I'm like, but there's few, there are few, few, few, few, few, few.

Simone Collins: Well, and they've done it already. This guy was still doing it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And that's, that's also differently. The Sackler family also has been

Simone Collins: successfully. Prosecuted. I mean, you could argue no one could put a price on the damage they've done, but they have paid a lot of money and, and been quite dragged through the mud.

Malcolm Collins: He was ramping up these efforts.

Simone Collins: So Oh, he was leaning into it, was he? Oh, dear. Okay. I didn't realize that well, no, I mean, if you look at

Malcolm Collins: the gross profits,

Simone Collins: Oh yeah, well, he certainly wasn't changing his stance and suddenly he

Malcolm Collins: was increasing it is the point I was making.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if this continued within his company, other companies in the industry would follow it.

Why [01:15:00] not?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Just like when American Airlines decided to become antagonistic to our travel agencies and then everyone was like,

Oh, yeah, let's throw them under the bus.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Cause they realize, Oh, you can't actually be a dick to your customers in that way. But for him being addicted to a customer, isn't a travel agency going out of business as a person's mother dying or kid dying.

Simone Collins: Exactly. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Did I change your mind on this Simone? Are you? Oh, very much.

Simone Collins: I will never advise anyone to assassinate anyone or break any laws whatsoever, but I 100 percent understand the mirth in response to this, to this assassination and yeah wow, that it's, it just saddens me to think how, you know. Many people have been hurt [01:16:00] by these corporate policies. That's really heartbreaking, but I also just hate them.

The health care system. I mean, the problem is the United States health care system. I wouldn't want to do health care in another country, right? It's really good here. The quality of care, the technology. It's it's the hospitals. It's great. I love it. Right. But then I wish that we could just have that and get rid of the insurance industry.

As it exists now, it's just like when you think it very similar to the school system, right? The amount of money that everyone pays when they just want to get health care, but instead it goes toward bureaucracy. That does nothing to do with anyone's benefit. No societal benefit whatsoever. Similar to the schooling system where a huge portion of it just goes to admin, benefiting absolutely no one.

It makes me very angry. And I, I'm going to say this [01:17:00] isn't just this one guy who's ruining everything. It is an entire industry that is extremely corrupt. That has to be dealt with. Not an entire

Malcolm Collins: industry. His numbers were double that of the industry standard. That doesn't change. But yeah, but even

Simone Collins: the best of health insurance companies, It's health

Malcolm Collins: insurance company is Kaiser Permanente, which has a 7 percent denial rate.

It's Kaiser Permanente

Simone Collins: is still playing its part in driving up healthcare costs because small doctors offices have hired additional staff just to negotiate with them, just to lower their, you know, like to maximize their profits and like this, the whole game created by insurance companies in the health insurance world creates a huge amount of waste.

That whole dance. And that's what I hate. Yes. Yeah, I

Malcolm Collins: agree with that. I just, I just want to push back on this idea of this guy is no different from any other thing. He's not. No,

Simone Collins: obviously he, he and a pond full of piranhas is the uniquely pernicious and toothy and aggressive piranha who does so much more damage.

But [01:18:00] I want to

Malcolm Collins: actually flip this back on you in a way that might change the way you see this. Okay. He was increasing these practices. We can see this from the data. Every year he was increasing the practices. Yeah. You, me, and our kids are on UnitedHealthcare.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: How would you feel if due to him increasing these practices every year, because he was getting no pushback from shareholders, one of our kids died?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean. This could have saved the

Malcolm Collins: life of one of our kids.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, this could have. I mean, this happening. It's true. And we've already. Done kind of dangerous things with our family's health because we can't afford

Malcolm Collins: to get because they denied things when we had a rabies exposure and we had the state say our kids had had a rabies exposure.

And the state, the state, like CDC gave us a note, not a doctor, the CDC gave

Simone Collins: us the, the, the county, but yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The, the county disease [01:19:00] control like the Pennsylvania Disease Control, sorry, Pennsylvania Disease Control saying, Give this to your health insurance provider, and they said, no, for rabies. Do you know how horrible it is to die to rabies?

Like, one of our kids may still die from a decision this guy made because rabies takes about a year to form. Yeah,

I mean, that's

just our kids family, just a heads up.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the reason why the rabies one is so important is because they're deny thing, right? They're like, oh, well, maybe we can get a few more days out of this.

Maybe we can get a few weeks out of this. Rabies needs to be taken within 24 hours.

Simone Collins: Yeah, we, we didn't deny

Malcolm Collins: prevented us from getting it. Yeah, it was not cool. So consider that Simone, when you think about this person's life and to all of you who, Oh, you're such a monster, Malcolm. What if it was your kids?

You don't care. [01:20:00] You don't care. You'd say, yeah, I'd suck that up. I'd let him take my money. F**k me while my kid died. Sorry, I just. I just have so little sympathy for these deontologists who are deontological in a way that obviously makes them the bad guys.

Simone Collins: Yeah, there's definitely a place at which following the rules becomes an inconceivably evil act, for sure.

Inconceivably evil. This guy did a 9 11 every year. Well, and I think the key thing, too, is to understand that A lot of people think that as long as they follow the rules, they're not doing anything wrong. And maybe this guy had convinced himself of that. And so he literally thought, well, I'm not doing anything morally wrong.

I'm not doing anything. Also did

Malcolm Collins: securities fraud defrauding his investors. He wasn't even [01:21:00] interested in fiduciary duty.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, yeah, it's, you know,

Malcolm Collins: I don't believe he was a bad person, but I believe that he was a type of person who, you know, if you look at like capitalists, there's like different types of capitalist people, you know, my family might have intergenerational wealth, but if it's because often they remade the money every generation, like, okay, so for example, people might hear your dad,

He must have been super wealthy and inherited a bunch of money in the company from his dad.

Do you know how he ended up running the company? So his granddad who was the previous of the company ended up taking a million dollar loan out without my father's permission, Under my father's name and this is when my father was earning a fairly median salary

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-7: From what I remember at the time he had no significant savings. He hadn't inherited any money and he was earning a salary of $60,000 a year.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it was

Malcolm Collins: He yeah, my father ended up making tons [01:22:00] of money because he grew the company a ton But he would have ended his life Yeah.

It's just very much like ruthless care.

Like sure, son, you can take over the family company. I'll just go to a banker and give the debt to ensure that you own a majority of shares now. Without your permission, because he knew the banker and it was an old Texas family. Oh,

Simone Collins: that's okay. I was wondering how that.

Oh, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They were friends. They were in some club together. And so he just went to the banker and he goes, Oh, you don't need to ask my, my grandson. Just put it on his account right here. Just, just put

Simone Collins: it on his tab. Just to come

Malcolm Collins: there.

Simone Collins: Not a problem. Well, I, yeah, I just had figured that perhaps he'd given your dad a pile of papers to sign and your dad had just trusting him signed them.

No, no, no, no, no,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, no,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, no, no,

Malcolm Collins: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, He just gave

Simone Collins: them to me. He gave them to me. Because isn't that, that's fraud. That's kind of super

Malcolm Collins: weird. It is fraud. But it's also the way the [01:23:00] old boys club worked back then.

Simone Collins: Yeah, when also like, what are you gonna do? You know, sue your dad.

Do you want to really make Christmases that awkward? Granddad, by the way. The

Malcolm Collins: dad actually totally disapproved of this and hated the granddad. Oh, that's That's nice. The dad was really nice. The dad was the one who, my dad's dad was the one who became a congressman. His dad was kind of a dick. The one who took out the dead in my dad's name.

Simone Collins: Gosh.

Malcolm Collins: Well, because he gave all his money. The reason he got in a fight with his son is because he also, every generation they do this, they gave all their money to charity and his son was really mad about it. So he increased all of his shares in the company instead of to the family, to the local Baptist church.

That's what the falling out was about. And that's why he didn't give my dad his shares in the company because his shares in the company were bequeathed to the Baptist Church. He took out debt to give those shares to my dad. So you can think of it as horrible, but also it's kind of ethical in a way.

Like no intergenerational wealth transfer. You're going to get fucked. Every, every penny I've made, I'm giving to a charity I care about. [01:24:00] But then my dad kind of did the same thing to me. So whatever, I don't mind it. I'm, I, I, I'm, I'm glad that I don't have any of that weight on my shoulders, you know?

Simone Collins: I, yeah, I don't, I don't think parents do favors to their children by giving them huge inheritances. Yeah. I do think that surprising them with amounts is good. If you have the luxury of doing that, I don't think that's going to be possible for us also because I want to be super transparent with our kids and money.

But giving them some token amount that might help with the down payment on a house, for example is huge, especially these days, if you can do that, but something where you get like an allowance, you know, like these trust fund kids that have like monthly allowances that really prevent them from getting jobs, prevent them from growing up.

That's bad. So basically like something that might cover. Catastrophic medical care or down payment on a house good anything beyond that something that like props up a lifestyle bad

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you Simone I've had a great time talking [01:25:00] to you. What are we doing for dinner tonight?

Simone Collins: coconut rice Hopefully better this time because I did both full fat coconut milk and only coconut milk, no water plus more salt plus lemon zest. So we'll see if that is very

Malcolm Collins: interesting. Coconut and lemon.

That's an interesting flavor combo.

Simone Collins: I don't know. It was supposed to be lime, but we don't have lime. So

Malcolm Collins: no, I'm just interested, but the lime and the coconut, you know what I mean?

Speaker 50: Work all night and drink a rum come Mr. Tallyman, tally me banana Will I come and be one go home?

Simone Collins: We'll see.

Malcolm Collins: And for the meat. For the meat. What are we doing? Just another dang dang sauce? Same as last

Simone Collins: night, but with, well, we can

Malcolm Collins: do garlic again.

I could have picked it up at Walmart, the oyster sauce. Oh, whoopsies. Sorry. All right. Well, we'll just do dang dang and a little bit of Well,

Simone Collins: yeah, if you could get out the sauces you want to use then I would. All right. All

Malcolm Collins: right. [01:26:00] I love you to death Simone. You are a great wife.

Simone Collins: I love you too, Malcolm.

You are perfect.

Speaker 43: Take the cheese, Josie.

There's more. Titan's cheese? Titan, do you want more flower shaped cheese? Aw, that's so nice of you, Torsten. Did you guys shape the cheese? What shape is the cheese, Titan? That is a dinosaur nugget. Yeah, and it's flashing and I can see it falling away. This is my dinosaur nugget. Titan, you have one in your plate already.

Why don't you take a bite? My dinosaur nugget. Octavian, what are you doing? I died. You died? Alright, can [01:27:00] you also eat your dinner?

Titan, you like your dinosaur nugget? Something stopped me! Something stopped you? No, something shot me! Shot? Oh, something shot you. Well, you know how to get your hearts back is you have to eat meatballs. Why don't you do that? Good idea. I'm strong! Good idea.