Welcome to the What's Next! Podcast with Tiffani Bova.

This week we're talking about something almost every leader is wrestling with right now: why transformation is so hard even when they know they need to change. My guests are Phil Lebrun and Jana Werner, co-authors of The Octopus Organization, a book that challenges the traditional way companies are structured and led.

THIS EPISODE IS PERFECT FOR…leaders navigating transformation and growth who want to build organizations that can meet the level of change.

TODAY'S MAIN MESSAGE…most organizations approach change as a transformation project with a clear beginning and end. Jana and Phil challenge that idea, arguing that the current environment requires organizations to continuously adapt, learn, and respond rather than rely on top-down change initiatives. In this conversation, they explain why so many transformation efforts fail, how bureaucracy and rigid structures slow organizations down, and why behavior change matters more than new technology or organizational charts.

KEY TAKEAWAYS…

• Transformation is often overused when continuous adaptation is what organizations really need.

• Behavior change matters more than organizational charts or new technology.

• Bureaucracy grows when organizations prioritize control over learning.

• Curiosity and psychological safety fuel innovation and adaptability.

• Leaders create lasting change by empowering the people closest to the work.

WHAT I LOVE MOST… Phil and Jana challenge the idea that transformation is something you complete. The organizations that thrive are the ones that treat learning and adaptation as part of everyday work.

Running Time: 29:13

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Find Tiffani Online:

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Find Phil Online:

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Find Jana Online:

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Phil and Jana's Substack:

The Octopus Organization

Phil and Jana's Book:

The Octopus Organization: A Guide to Thriving in a World of Continuous Transformation