Behavioral Grooves Podcast

Splashy headlines, sensational findings and world-first results grab our attention but they also leave us vulnerable to deception. Constantly being skeptical of research is an impractical stance, so how do we avoid being fooled by fraud? Daniel Simons and Christopher Chabris tell us exactly how.

If you’re one of the 13 million viewers of the Monkey Business Illusion video on YouTube, you are already familiar with the work of our guests on this episode, Daniel Simons and Christopher Chabris. As long time experts in the areas of deception and fraud, they have just published an excellent new book on the topic; Nobody's Fool: Why We Get Taken In and What We Can Do About It.

In our discussion with Dan Simons and Chris Chabris, we discuss ways to avoid being fooled and scammed based on insights from behavioral science. They talk about how habits and appealing information can make people vulnerable to deception. While being skeptical of everything all the time is impractical, people should be more skeptical when the stakes are high.

Scientific fraud is a growing concern and has hit the headlines again in the field of behavioral science. Dan and Chris outline the problems with current incentives in academic research and a new approach to conducting research that reduces the push for only publishing statistically significant results. 

The snapshot takeaway from this monumental discussion though is when trying to figure out who to trust in a world swimming in disinformation, fraud and scams - look for the people who are routinely admit when they’re wrong. These are the people you can trust.

Interviewing Dan and Chris was definitely a highlight of the 350+ episodes of Behavioral Grooves Podcast. We love bringing you insights from the best minds in the field of behavioral science. If you’d like to support our ongoing work, please consider becoming a Behavioral Grooves Patreon member.

(4:04) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:56) What readers can get out of the book, Nobody’s Fool.

(11:06) Why is a book about deception timely?

(15:31) Who can we trust?

(18:52) The replication crisis in behavioral science.

(21:36) Registered reports - a new method for publishing research. 

(23:46) How to ask the right questions.

(26:38) How to detect fraud in scientific papers?

(32:59) The tension between individual choice and incentives in research.

(37:58) Normalizing a lack of confidence in your own research results.

(41:49) The bullshit receptivity scale research.

(45:09) Tips on evading selection.

(50:43) What music Dan and Chris would take to a desert island.

(55:53) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on being fooled.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

The Monkey Business Illusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY 

Daniel Simons and Christopher Chabris’ book, Nobody's Fool: Why We Get Taken In and What We Can Do About It: https://amzn.to/3pHdkz6 

Pennycook, G., Cheyne, J. A., Barr, N., Koehler, D. J., & Fugelsang, J. A. (2015). Bullshit Receptivity Scale: https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/t52525-000 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Talking Heads “Once in a Lifetime”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsSpAOD6K8 

Ani Difranco “Both Hands”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th-GDhsveM4&ab_channel=HybridFalcon 

Wax Tailor “Come With Me”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzGmze5erMo&pp=ygUKd2F4IHRheWxvcg%3D%3D 

Bjork “Human Behaviour”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0mRIhK9seg&ab_channel=bj%C3%B6rk 

Supertramp “Breakfast in America”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YQb-0P320s&ab_channel=KRM 

Chris

U2 “Original Of The Species”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu9rQ8lkQ5c 

Bob Mould “I Don’t Know You Anymore”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ0ZEpJRpAE&ab_channel=MergeRecordsonYouTube 

Between disinformation and misinformation, it’s difficult to know what and who to trust, especially during a crisis. When disaster does strike, it is critical that scientific information is communicated clearly. Oceanographer Christopher Reddy discusses his experiences relaying vital information during the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in 2010.

Scientists are bathing in uncertainty. It is the basis of their work. As Chris says “if I’m certain about something, I’m not going to research it.” But during a disaster, people crave answers, not a comprehensive research paper published 5 years after the event! So a huge challenge for scientists is how to communicate effectively to both the media, the public and all of the stakeholders involved in disaster relief. 

In this episode, we’ve reached outside of our traditional box of guests and are talking with a sharp, witty and very informative scientist, Christopher Reddy. Chris is a chemist, but for reasons he explains in the podcast, he most often refers to himself as an oceanographer. He is a leader in the study of marine pollution and the development of environmentally friendly industrial chemicals and works as a senior scientist in the Department of Marine Chemistry and Geochemistry at Woods Hole Oceanographic. 

When the Deepwater Horizon oil spill disaster struck in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010, Chris was one of the sets of boots on the ground, leading the field operations. His expertise in the science of oil spills meant he was thrust into a public facing role which later got him personally entangled in the BP legal case surrounding the liability for the spill. He’s written about this experience in his new book, Science Communication in a Crisis: An Insider’s Guide.

We love bringing you interesting and funny conversations from people like Chris. If you would like to support our work, please share this episode on social media, write a review on your app or become a Behavioral Grooves Patreon member.

(3:57) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:57) How communicating can make you a better scientist.

(13:02) Who are the most important stakeholders in the communication process?

(16:16) Mistrust in science is a big challenge.

(18:04) How to communicate uncertainty.

(22:32) Public statements have real world consequences.

(25:33) Why you shouldn’t start a conversation with your PhD qualifications!

(30:18) The hardest part of the Deepwater Horizon disaster for Chris.

(35:05) Clair Patterson’s impact on the world.

(39:11) Advice on how to become a science communicator.

(40:46) Why Chris can’t listen to music.

(46:19) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on communicating.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Chris’ book: Science Communication in a Crisis: An Insider’s Guide: https://amzn.to/3rfrKan 

Deepwater Horizon oil spill in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon 

Clair Patterson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clair_Cameron_Patterson 

Clair Patterson, the Hero Who Got the Lead Out of Gasoline: https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/science/environment/clair-patterson-got-lead-out-of-gasoline/ 

Freddie Mercury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury 

Larry Bird: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Queen “We are the Champions”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04854XqcfCY 

Queen “We will Rock You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tJYN-eG1zk 

Queen “Bohemian Rhapsody”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUzIMcZQ 

When we pretend to know something that we don’t or start a comment with “everyone knows that...”, we create an atmosphere where answers become irrelevant. It closes off our openness to new ideas, ways of thinking and discovering new information. This is the curse of knowingness.

On this episode of Behavioral Grooves, Jonathan Malesic discusses the concept of "knowingness" - the tendency people have to act like they already know something when in fact they don't. This false sense of knowledge can prevent learning and understanding. Overcoming knowingness requires maintaining a healthy skepticism and openness to new evidence. 

Knowingness afflicts all corners of our politics. And I think that it's a real problem when it starts afflicting people whose job is to inform us.

Jonathan Malesic teaches writing at Southern Methodist University and creative nonfiction at the University of Texas at Dallas. He’s a philosopher and scholar and cares a lot about something we do every week: science communication. And he's also a previous guest on the show when he discussed how to end burnout on episode 302.

Writing for an audience can help develop empathy and moral imagination by forcing writers to imagine the needs and perspective of their readers. Jonathan argues that learning to write is an ethical training that teaches us to relate to others beyond ourselves. With the emergence of new AI tools like ChatGPT it begs the question of whether writing needs to be taught at all. But Jonathan doesn’t feel threatened by AI. He explains that with a lack of empathy, AI will never be able to effectively write for its audience. 

(3:12) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:02) Our problem isn’t misinformation, it’s knowingness.

(9:16) Is knowingness a type of confirmation bias?

(11:31) How already knowing makes it impossible to learn anything new.

(15:04) The role of the internet and social media on confirmation bias.

(18:43) Cognitive dissonance and the structure of scientific revolutions.

(20:54) How can we overcome knowingness?

(28:55) How do you change someone’s mind?

(30:54) Do we still need to teach writing now that we have ChatGPT?

(39:09) How do we relate to people we imagine?

(43:24) What music would Jon take to a desert island?

(47:18) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on knowingness.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Episode 302, You Have Dignity Because You’re Human, Not Because You Work | Jonathan Malesic: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/you-have-dignity-jonathan-malesic/ 

Jonathan Malesic’s book “The End of Burnout: Why Work Drains Us and How to Build Better Lives”: https://amzn.to/3tDdS8j

Jonathan Lear “Open Minded: Working Out the Logic of the Soul”: https://amzn.to/3PyP2SJ 

“Our big problem is not misinformation; it’s knowingness” by Jonathan Malesic: https://psyche.co/ideas/our-big-problem-is-not-misinformation-its-knowingness

Buffalo Sabres: https://www.nhl.com/sabres 

Thomas Kuhn “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions”: https://amzn.to/3JqLe1O 

Oedipus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus 

Episode 31, Leaving the Matrix: Annie Duke and Insights into how you can improve your thinking! https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/leaving-the-matrix-annie-duke-and-insights-into-how-you-can-improve-your-thinking/ 

 Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

 Neil Young “Harvest Moon”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2MtEsrcTTs 

Fiona Apple “Criminal”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFOzayDpWoI

We all get stuck. In relationships, in jobs or in creative endeavors. It’s a universal experience, yet most people feel incredibly lonely when they’re stuck. By shedding light on the latest research, bestselling author Adam Alter expertly unravels the psychological and practical steps you need to get unstuck.

Adam Alter PhD is a professor of Marketing at New York University's Stern School of Business with an affiliate appointment in the Psychology Department. Adam has spent the past two decades studying how people become stuck and how they free themselves to thrive. He is the author of bestsellers Drunk Tank Pink and Irresistible but we talk with him on this episode about his latest book, Anatomy of a Breakthrough: How to Get Unstuck When It Matters Most.

As someone who has kept decades of notes on interesting observations from his life, Adam peppers all his work with relatable personal stories. One of the trends of Adam’s observations from over the years is that music has provided a stream of interesting anecdotes. So it will come as no surprise to regular listeners of the Behavioral Grooves, that Tim thoroughly enjoyed talking about how music has influenced Adam’s life, research and writing!

We hope you enjoy listening to our light hearted discussion with Adam and if you would like to support the work of Behavioral Grooves, you can become a Patreon member of the show: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves.

(3:30) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:31) Creativity is a result of productivity not insight.

(6:38) Where do people get stuck in their lives?

(7:42) Narrow bracketing - how to get rid of the messy middle.

(9:55) Why is it so hard to get unstuck?

(12:08) How to reframe difficulties as challenges.

(15:52) In hierarchical organizations, the personality of leaders matters.

(18:30) How to fail well.

(23:07) Are constraints liberating?

(26:34) The 3 part process of a friction audit?

(29:29) What is hardship inoculation?

(34:06) Finding the people who magically unstick your team.

(38:48) What makes a great band?

(42:46) How Universal Basic Income (UBI) can harness creative breakthroughs.

(45:28) Why music is a huge part of Adam’s book.

(48:10) How the economy actually dictates our musical choices. 

(53:39) The music that Adam listens to.

(57:37) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on getting unstuck.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Adam Alter’s book “Anatomy of a Breakthrough: How to Get Unstuck When It Matters Most”: https://amzn.to/3NHkQ6z 

Episode 276, How To Stay Motivated So You Exceed Your Goals with Ayelet Fishbach PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/motivation-to-exceed-your-goals/ 

Episode 307, Groove Track - Mind Over Milkshakes: Why Expectations Matter A Lot: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/mind-over-milkshakes-groove-track/ 

Michael Lewis “Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game”: https://amzn.to/46dqbJV 

Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt, “The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure”: https://amzn.to/3NSRItb 

Episode 64, Danny Oppenheimer: Governance and Helicopter Parenting: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/danny-oppenheimer-governance-and-helicopter-parenting/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

EDM, trance music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xptn9MHiAdo 

Alice in Chains “Man In The Box”:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAqZb52sgpU 

Bob Dylan “Like A Rolling Stone”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOfCgkyEj0 

Saying yes to tasks that we want to say no to is a common problem. But how do we decide which requests to turn down? Dr Vanessa Patrick PhD strategically breaks down asks into 4 useful categories. Learn to say yes to requests that align with your identity and how to communicate an empowered refusal. 

“A no that stems from your identity is a much more empowered no”

Dr Vanessa Patrick PhD is a Professor of Marketing and the Associate Dean for Research at the Bauer College of Business at the University of Houston. Her recent book “The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No That Puts You in Charge of Your Life” is an extremely practical guide in how to turn down the requests that don’t align with your identity.

While Vanessa’s academic research is rigorous and interesting, it is her poetic ability to translate her findings into useful frameworks and practical advice that makes her work resonate so powerfully. Her analogy of persistent askers being like a walnut tree evokes beautiful imagery that helps illustrate her point. And Tim’s favorite quote from the conversation is “we leak power through our nonverbal skills.” Join our discussion to learn how this elegant nugget of wisdom can help us overcome our communication weaknesses.

Producer of Behavioral Grooves, Mary Kaliff, joins regular host Tim Houlihan on this podcast episode to ask Vanessa the questions that will help you communicate empowered refusals. We figure out how to say no to tasks that don’t align with our identity and our personal priorities. But we also delve into some areas that Vanessa doesn’t address in the book, such as the social norms in individualistic and collective societies, and of course, the musical influences that have shaped Vanessa’s life.

And for regular listeners, you’ll be relieved to know that while Kurt Nelson sadly missed the interview with Vanessa, he joins Tim and Mary in the Grooving Session to summarize and develop the key points from the discussion.

(2:56) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:13) Should we frame a refusal with “I can’t” or “I don’t”?

(6:37) Saying no to a complete stranger compared to friends & family.

(7:28) What is an empowered refusal?

(10:30) Should we sometimes say yes?

(12:44) How to overcome the flattery of being asked.

(15:07) Why women are at much greater risk of saying yes.

(16:59) How to break down asks into 4 categories.

(20:26) Why you don’t want to be walnut tree!

(23:44) Why it’s harder to say no to more powerful people.

(25:07) What is compassionate self control?

(30:41) The difference with empowered refusal in collective vs individualistic societies.

(32:46) The 3 competencies of empowered refusal.

(35:46) Life choices that have influenced Vanessa’s musical choices.

(41:13) Grooving Session with Tim, Mary and Kurt on saying no!

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Vanessa’s book, “The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No That Puts You in Charge of Your Life”: https://amzn.to/42N3cm1 

Episode 277, No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope with Daniel H. Pink: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/ 

Episode 350, How One Small Word Can Transform Our Motivation, Success And Relationships with Jonah Berger: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/words-can-transform-jonah-berger/ 

Episode 278, How Can Smart, Kind People Harness Their Influence? Zoe Chance: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/harness-influence-zoe-chance/ 

Episode 325, Can You Unlearn History And Still Love Your Country? With Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dolly-chugh/ 

Episode 18, Stars – Cores – Laggards – Better Incentives for Your Sales Reps featuring Dr. Michael Ahearne: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stars-cores-laggards-better-incentives-for-your-sales-reps-featuring-dr-michael-ahearne/ 

Patrick, Vanessa & Hagtvedt, Henrik. (2012). “I Don’t” versus “I Can’t”: When Empowered Refusal Motivates Goal-Directed Behavior. Journal of Consumer Research: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239810645_I_Don't_versus_I_Can't_When_Empowered_Refusal_Motivates_Goal-Directed_Behavior 

Patrick, Vanessa and Mead, Nicole (2016) , The taming of desire: Unspecific postponement reduces desire for and consumption of postponed temptations: https://ssrn.com/abstract=3602254

The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom by Don Miguel Ruiz: https://amzn.to/3NdIHcw 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Phantom of the Opera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGb4hj-EXt0 

Elvis Presley “Hound Dog”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNYWl13IWhY 

Understanding how we think can change our thinking. From confirmation biases, to uncertainty, to overconfidence, we are all blessed with the same thinking patterns that affect our decision making. Yale professor, Dr Woo-kyoung Ahn walks us through the latest cognitive research on “thinking problems”, and most importantly, how we can overcome them.

Woo-kyoung Ahn is a psychology professor and the director of the Thinking Lab at Yale University. Recently she wrote a riveting book titled “Thinking 101: How to Reason Better to Live Better.” On this episode of Behavioral Grooves, she joins Tim Houlihan and producer Mary Kaliff to make the case that there are some good reasons behind our ways of thinking. For example, confirmation bias can save us energy and help bring consistency to our lives. 

Dr Ahn illustrates her book and this discussion with many relatable, personal stories that illustrate our patterns of thinking. Our favorite is that she recently updated her lecture notes for her class at Yale on the planning fallacy. She had optimistically estimated it would take her 3 days. Ironically, it took her 3 weeks!

As always, the most useful part of the conversation on Behavioral Grooves are the practical tips that we can use in our everyday life. And Woo-kyoung offers us plenty of useful ways we change our perspective and improve our lives. Join Tim and Mary for further discussion in the Grooving Session on how to apply Woo-kyoung’s work.

(3:16) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:26) Who is Thinking 101 written for?

(9:58) What are “thinking problems” and what exactly is confirmation bias?

(12:29) What is the link between maximizing, satisficing and confirmation bias?

(18:09) Should we change people's minds or change our perspective?

(20:33) Why are we overconfident about what others are thinking?

(23:22) Why is confirmation bias hardwired in us?

(26:25) Why are highly educated women biased against other highly educated women?

(28:38) What can we do about confirmation bias in job selection?

(31:43) How do collective societies vs individualistic societies affect our identity?

(34:18) The difference between emotional theory of mind and cognitive theory of mind.

(35:42) How to combat the planning fallacy.

(41:40) How uncertainty affects our decision making.

(46:11) What music would Woo-kyoung take to a desert island?

(47:49) Grooving Session with Tim and Mary about uncertainty and decision making.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Woo-kyoung Ahn: https://wkahn.com/about 

Thinking 101: How to Reason Better to Live Better: https://amzn.to/3MW7dQH 

Episode 300, You Can Change Someone’s Mind But Are You Sure You Want To? | David McRaney: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/changing-minds-david-mcraney/ 

Episode 31, Leaving the Matrix: Annie Duke and Insights into how you can improve your thinking! https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/leaving-the-matrix-annie-duke-and-insights-into-how-you-can-improve-your-thinking/ 

Episode 345, The Tools You Need To Embrace Uncertainty | Nathan and Susannah Harmon Furr: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/tools-to-embrace-uncertainty/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

YoYo Ma playing J.S. Bach’s Cello Suite No.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObSD2fXWU0I  

BTS “ Yet To Come (The Most Beautiful Moment)”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXpOEzNZ8hQ&ab_channel=HYBELABELS

If you compare executive pay of men and women in C suite jobs, you will often not find a discrepancy in their wages. You will also be completely missing the point. The gender pay gap exists because it is more difficult for women to reach executive level success. Throughout their career progression, but particularly early on, women face more discrimination than men, and so fewer women are ultimately promoted to the highest level of an organization.

Gender discrimination is one of the recent topics covered by Alex Imas PhD, in his research. Alex is a behavioral economist with a focus on dynamic decision-making. His research explores topics related to choice under uncertainty, discrimination, mental representation, and how people learn from information. 

Most recently, Alex has been the recipient of the 2023 Alfred P. Sloan Research Fellowship which seeks to stimulate fundamental research by early-career scientists and scholars of outstanding promise.

Alex’s work on discrimination in the workplace sheds vital light on the cause of the problem which isn’t just found within the hiring process. But before Kurt and Tim discuss this topic with Alex, the conversation kicks off with the fascinating findings that have fed off Robert Cialdini’s founding work - that scarcity drives consumer demand.

It was back in episode 71, that Alex was originally a guest on Behavioral Grooves. And Tim was more than happy to rekindle the initial musical discussion around Tom Waits and Bob Dylan. But Alex also delights us with how the pandemic altered his listening behavior and opened him up to some new favorite bands.

(4:59) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:!8) How exclusivity can drive demand.

(14:56) Access desire is the key to driving demand.

(16:50) What are Alex’s plans with being awarded the Sloan Fellowship?

(21:41) Integrating behavioral science into the workplace.

(26:17) The latest research on gender discrimination in the workplace.

(32:11) Why looking at salaries for men and women doing the same job is not enough.

(36:20) How algorithms can exacerbate and scale biases.

(40:20) How Tom Waits’ music has inspired Alex to explore new areas of creativity.

(47:38) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on discrimination. 

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Alex Imas: http://www.aleximas.com/ 

NBER: https://www.nber.org/ 

Episode 355, Want Marketing That’s Effective? Use a Behavioral Science Perspective | Nancy Harhut: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/marketing-using-behavioral-science/ 

Episode 71, Alex Imas: Clawback Incentives and Tom Waits: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/alex-imas-clawback-incentives-and-tom-waits/ 

Alex Imas & Kristóf Madarász (2022) “Superiority-Seeking and the Preference for Exclusion”: https://www.nber.org/papers/w30334 

Episode 226, The Power of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cialdini-unity-in-influence/ 

Benjamin Handel: https://www.benjaminhandel.com/ 

Imas, J. A. Bohren and M. Rosenberg (2019) "The Dynamics of Discrimination: Theory and Evidence," American Economic Review: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57967bc7cd0f68048126361d/t/5cdf2d4c7d1b310001d046fc/1558129997622/BohrenImasRosenberg_DynamicsDiscrimination_January2019.pdf

Episode 293, Women Do Too Much Non-Promotable Work: How To Say No More with Linda Babcock: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/women-do-too-much/ 

Episode 204, How Shellye Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shellye-archambeau-like-an-eagle/ 

Tom Waits “Downtown Train”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLtZKkCIVmI 

Bob Dylan “My Back Pages”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92cF_KCH7TU 

Bob Dylan “Johanna”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwuCF5lYqEE 

Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs “Way Out”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh3DXuNH9A0 

The Strokes “Last Nite”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOypSnKFHrE 

The Vines “Get Free”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asOvnGHwtDU 

The White Stripes “Seven Nation Army”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY 

Fontaines D.C. “Jackie Down The Line”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AoOfJP3r40  

Bright Eyes “First Day of My Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUBYzpCNQ1I 

Want people to comply with rules at work? Stop assuming that they are going to break the rules. The vast majority of people want to do the right thing. So if you’re finding that people aren’t complying, you’ve got a rule problem, not a people problem. 

Our expert guest and friend of the show, Christian Hunt turns compliance on its head in this episode: 

“I thought compliance was all about rules and regulations, which it is, but that is the organization's perspective on it. The organization needs to comply with these rules. That's the organization’s challenge. But to get that solved, you’ve got to be thinking about things from the perspective of the people that are going to deliver or not deliver that mission.”

Thinking about the people behind the rules is the crux of Christian’s new book “Humanizing Rules: Bringing Behavioural Science to Ethics and Compliance”, which we are thrilled to be discussing on this episode of Behavioral Grooves.

We’ve had the pleasure of recording with Christian a number of times. Most notably at  the Abbey Road Studios in London where we talked about the risks and benefits of cheating in episode 326. We have also delved into how to not outsource your critical thinking during in episode 122, as well as covering the 5 principles of human risk - in other words, the myths that humans cling to that don’t help us - way back in episode 86. And most recently, Christian joined in our conversation in episode 339, giving very practical tips on how to read a book quickly.

Christians is a fellow podcaster, hosting a fantastic show called The Human Risk Podcast (you should definitely take a listen) which explores the idea of human decision-making as a risk and what we can do to mitigate it. 

Unbelievably, despite this being the 5th time on Behavioral Grooves, this is the first time we get to hear Christian’s musical picks. And as always, this part of the discussion reveals a bit more about our guest that we didn’t know before.

(4:33) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:02) Should rules be designed for bad people or good people?

(12:24) Why Compliance Officer is the worst job title!

(15:31) Christian’s journey into compliance.

(20:24) Don’t focus on what you'd like people to do, but focus on what people are likely to do.

(24:12) The difference between recoverable and irrecoverable issues.

(27:44) Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

(31:06) People problem or rule problem?

(34:27) Who the hell is Mr Logic?

(43:13) How to get people to pay attention to compliance.

(47:19) Learning about compliance from sexologists!

(53:01) What music would Christian take to a desert island?

(58:32) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on compliance.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Human Risk Podcast: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/ 

Christian’s book, “Humanizing Rules: Bringing Behavioural Science to Ethics and Compliance”: https://amzn.to/428gp8s 

Episode 326, Grooving on Cheating: Kurt, Tim, Christian Hunt, and Koen Smets: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/grooving-on-cheating/ 

Episode 122, Don’t Outsource Your Critical Thinking with Christian Hunt: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/c-19-dont-outsource-your-critical-thinking-with-christian-hunt/ 

Episode 86, Christian Hunt: Mitigating Human Risk and The Algorithmic Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/christian-hunt-mitigating-human-risk-and-the-algorithmic-mind/ 

Episode 339, Top 2 Tips on How to Read a Book Quickly: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-read-a-book-quickly/  

Mr Logic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab6yslxLRyQ&ab_channel=ViolenceMatters 

Human Risk and the sexologist, Jill McDevitt: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/sexologist-dr-jill-mcdevitt-on/

Herbert Grönemeyer: https://www.groenemeyer.de/

Happy 60th, Herbert Grönemeyer: https://www.dw.com/en/herbert-gr%C3%B6nemeyer-germanys-most-successful-musician-turns-60/a-19180054

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

The Beatles “I Feel Fine”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrAV5EVI4tU 

Herbert Grönemeyer singt "Bochum" live im Stadion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFRQQCZglwI 

Goals are as common and as misunderstood as mobile phones. We think we know how to use them, but we don’t get it right every time. And if we were asked to explain how they work, we’d be clueless.

In this Grooving Session, Kurt and Tim discuss the magic of goals and how to best utilize them. We discuss some goal-setting studies – both published and unpublished – and some fundamental reasons why goals are important. We also get into some complementary research on the illusionary progress to goal and the goal gradient theory, both linked to the work of Ran Kivetz, from Columbia University. It’s a quick discussion of some important applications of how to make goals work better for YOU!

CONTEST ALERT! And as a special thank-you, we’re going to select a single listener to be our special guest on a future podcast. To let us know you’re interested in being our special guest, use #IWANTTOBEYOURSPECIALGUEST when you forward this episode on LinkedIn, Twitter or Facebook and we’ll select a winner. We want YOU to be our special guest to hear YOUR questions about behavioral sciences.

This is a republished episode that was originally episode 27 of Behavioral Grooves, back in September 2018 (yes Tim and Kurt really have been podcasting that long!) But we felt the content of this episode was timeless.

And the offer of being a guest on the show? Yes, we still mean it! Share the hashtag and come join Kurt and Tim on a future episode!

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Between setting your goals and reaching your goals, there is a void that we assume willpower can fill. But to achieve success, it takes more than willpower alone. Thankfully there are some well researched tools that we can set in place to help us flourish.

Hosts of Behavioral Grooves Kurt Nelson and Tim Houlihan sit down for a succinct Groove Track episode summarizing the myths about willpower, what other factors are at play when striving for our goals, and the tools we can use to help us succeed. 

• Willpower is not enough on its own.

And routines work best when they:

• Fit into our lifestyle.

And tools are useful to:

• Help remind and motivate. 

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Mazuch & Rona (2005), “Creating healing environments: humanistic architecture and therapeutic design”: https://www.proquest.com/scholarly-journals/creating-healing-environments-humanistic/docview/212385610/se-2 

McMains & Kastner (2011), “Interactions of top-down and bottom-up mechanisms in human visual cortex”: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21228167/ 

Wendy Wood, “Good Habits, Bad Habits: The Science of Making Positive Changes That Stick”: https://amzn.to/3LTMlYl 

Katy Milkman, “How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be”: https://amzn.to/3pzBb3t 

The Brain/Shift Journal - Scientifically Proven Guided Journal for Goal Setting and Achieving: A 13-Week Undated Planner, Organizer, and Notebook for Personal Productivity: https://amzn.to/42rjilP