Behavioral Grooves Podcast

The research that Reuben Kline, PhD is working on is focused on climate change mitigation. As an associate professor of political science and the director of the Center for Behavioral Political Economy at Stony Brook University, he is concerned about the actions we’ll take when presented with a list of options to mitigate climate change.

Reuben’s research asks which lists are more effective: Long lists (in harmony with neo-classical economic theory to offer lots of choices) or short lists (in harmony with behavioral research on the tyranny of too many options)? He’s also studying the impact of offering people lists of difficult things compared to easy things, or when there’s a mix of both. Would it help the consumer to make trade-offs if there was a variety of effort offered to them?

His work reveals some of the complications of how we think about lists of varying length and effort when it comes to climate change mitigation.

At one point, we asked Reuben about how he feels when he hears from climate deniers and he noted with a laugh, “I study climate change, so I’m always depressed.” But he was also quick to point out that he’s optimistic about how people respond to some of his research. We should be optimistic, too, with people like Reuben researching these topics.

We recorded this conversation at the NoBeC conference at the University of Pennsylvania where Reuben was presenting his findings to the students in the Masters of Norms and Behavior Change program at UPenn. In an alcove beside the main hall, we discussed the behavioral impacts of offering mitigation strategy lists to consumers. And we are grateful to Chris Nave, PhD and Eugen Dimant, PhD for hosting us at the conference.

© 2019 Behavioral Grooves

Reuben Kline, PhD: https://www.stonybrook.edu/experts/profile/reuben-kline

Shanto Iyengar, PhD: https://politicalscience.stanford.edu/people/shanto-iyengar

Collective Risk Social Dilemma (The Disaster Game): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332933221_Collective_Risk_Social_Dilemma_Role_of_information_availability_in_achieving_cooperation_against_climate_change

Manfred Milinski, PhD: https://www.weforum.org/people/manfred-milinski

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: https://www.ipcc.ch/

Free Rider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem

Conditional Cooperation: https://scholar.harvard.edu/dtingley/publications/conditional-cooperation-international-organizations-and-climate-change

Moral Hazard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

BJ Fogg: https://www.behaviormodel.org/

James Clear: https://jamesclear.com/

Wendy Wood, PhD: https://dornsife.usc.edu/wendywood

Sheena Iyengar, PhD, Jam Study: https://www.sheenaiyengar.com/

P Funk All-Stars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAcW7zgAD4

Parliament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjKFCYzqq-A

Rick James: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_James

Sly and the Family Stone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj6OyIh7GAI

Black Puma’s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G383538qzQ

The New Mastersounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acAIQ6ZG5OI

The Bamboos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spG8E0nMLDc

Johnny Cash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Cash

Willie Nelson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Nelson

Hank Williams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Williams

Led Zeppelin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin

Rolling Stones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones

Fela Kuti: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fela_Kuti

Huey Lewis and the News: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Lewis_and_the_News

Eugen Dimant, PhD is a Postdoctoral Researcher in the Master of Behavioral and Decision Sciences Department and a Senior Research Fellow at the Identity and Conflict Lab, Political Science Department – both at the University of Pennsylvania.

His research is rooted in economics and sits at the crossroads of experimental behavioral economics, behavioral ethics, crime, and corruption, with much of his recent work focusing on the ways “bad apples” (people will malintent) can be thwarted. This is also manifest in his research on behavioral contagion of pro- and anti-social behavior among individuals and groups. Because we met up with him presenting a paper at NoBeC, a social norms conference, we also discussed the role of social norms in pro- and anti-social behaviors.

We are inspired by Eugen’s work with social nudges and what can be done to minimize the impact of people who are out to corrupt systems and communities. And, we had a great time talking with this incredibly passionate researcher about his wide variety of interests.

We are grateful to Eugen for reaching out to us as we were planning our 100th Episode celebration in Philadelphia. He invited us to the University of Pennsylvania’s NoBeC Conference – the Norms and Behavioral Change Conference – that was happening the same days that we were recording our 100th Episode. Eugen, along with his colleague Chris Nave, PhD, helped us arrange conversations with many researchers and speakers at the conference and we are forever grateful.

Finally, we invite you to keep listening after our discussion with Eugen to hear Kurt and Tim’s Grooving Session and then the Bonus Track where we recap the key insights from the episode.

Eugen Dimant, PhD: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds/faculty/eugen-dimant

Eugen Dimant research website:https://sites.google.com/view/eugendimant/home

Paper 1 (erosion of Norm compliance):https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3355028

Paper 2 (backfiring is nudges):https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3294375

Paper 3 (nudges vs collective behavioral change):https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11127-019-00684-6

Paper 4 (how beliefs matter in behavioral change):https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3326146

NoBeC (Norms and Behavior Change Conference): https://web.sas.upenn.edu/nobec/

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD: https://upenn.academia.edu/CristinaBicchieri

Gary Bolton, PhD: https://personal.utdallas.edu/~gxb122130/

Nudge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_theory

Social Norms: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/social-norms/

Injunctive and Descriptive Norms: https://study.com/academy/lesson/injunctive-and-descriptive-group-norms-definitions-differences-examples.html

Pluralistic Ignorance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

Peer Effects: https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/applied-and-social-sciences-magazines/peer-effects

Coleman’s Boat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGaz0xKG060

Chris Nave, PhD: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds/contact/christopher-nave

Bobo Doll Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobo_doll_experiment

Robert Cialdini, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini

Kiki and Bouba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect

Pollstar: https://www.pollstar.com/ 

Drake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_(musician)

Bushido: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido_(rapper)

U2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U2

Ed Sheeran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Sheeran

Eagles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagles_(band)

Rolling Stones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones

Fleetwood Mac: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleetwood_Mac

Imagine that the two drawings below are called Kiki and Bouba in some alien language.  If you had to guess which one was Kiki and which one was Bouba - without any other information, which one would be Kiki, and which one would be Bouba?  

If you are like most people, the sharp angular shape (on the left) would be named Kiki while the curvier rounded shape (on the right) would be named Bouba.

 This effect is called the Bouba/Kiki effect which highlights how we map sounds to visual shapes and was first observed by Wolfgang Kohler in the late 1920s and then refined in the early 2000s by Vilayanure Ramachandran and Edward Hubbard.   In experiments, over 95% of respondents selected the curvy shape as Bouba and the jagged one as Kiki.  The effect shows that words that have softer, rounded sounds (i.e., oo’s and ah’s) are associated with rounder shapes, while sounds that have more angular, sharp sounds (i.e., k’s and I’s) are associated with more pointed shapes. 

While this effect focused on speech and visuals, my colleague and co-host of Behavioral Grooves, Tim Houlihan and I have started to use it as a way to describe how we think. 

Some of us think with a “Kiki” like a brain.  Others of us think with a “Bouba” like a brain. 

While not perfect, it does help in understanding the differences in how our brains process, retain, and regurgitate information.  For instance, a “Kiki brain” is precise and sharp and can remember specific names, dates, and titles.  While a more “Bouba brain” retains information about the general concepts and impacts but is less precise and more holistic in the combination of ideas and thoughts.  

So while Tim can typically recall the name of a behavioral science study, the year it was published, and the author(s) (very much a Kiki brain), Kurt can usually only recall the concept that the study explored, how that concept can be applied, and how it interacts with other behavioral science concepts (more of a Bouba brain).   

Often times during the podcast, my Bouba mind will be at a loss for the name of a study or a particular researcher, however, Tim’s Kiki brain will have those names readily available.  On the other side of the coin, Tim will be reciting a specific study and my Bouba brain will instantly go to the nuances of the application of how this works and implications for the people involved. 

Of course, like most other ways of describing ourselves, this is not an either/or situation.  I would argue that we all have aspects of Kiki thinking AND Bouba thinking depending on the topic, situation, and other factors (i.e., how much sleep we had the night before).  And no brain is just Kiki or Bouba – we shift between the two on a regular basis.  Like personalities, these descriptions are just the tendencies for the way we think.  For instance, I’m not always at a loss for remembering a study name or researcher nor do I not understand the subtleties or connections from those studies that I do remember. 

We fluctuate on a continuum and we often move easily between the thinking styles. 

In general, my notion is that Kiki brains are more admired.  Those are the people that I don’t like getting into debates with, because they will bring in facts and figures and names at lightning speed and I’m just trying to stay up and connect the dots.   I need to be on my phone looking up references and facts, while they are seemingly pulling them out of the air.  People with KikI brains come across as smarter and more informed – because they can recall these details whereas people with Bouba brains are left talking about the general proposition. 

Kiki brains are not fumbling to remember people’s names, the exact figure for the organization’s budget or the year that the Challenger exploded. 

At this point, there is no research that is on this or supports this crazy theory.  However, by naming these types of thinking styles, I think we can better interact with each other and contribute to our work.  The power of this is in helping us understand how we communicate with others and understanding how we process and remember information.    

Image:  Monochrome version 1 June 2007 by Bendž Vectorized with Inkscape 

Maurer, Pathman, and Modloch (2006), The shape of Boubas: sound-shape correspondences in toddlers and adults.  Developmental Science.

Ramachandran, V.S. & Hubbard, E.M. (2001). "Synaesthesia: A window into perception, thought and language" (PDF). Journal of Consciousness Studies.

© 2019 Behavioral Grooves

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD is the S. J. Patterson Harvie Professor of Social Thought and Comparative Ethics, a Professor of Philosophy and Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, a Professor of Legal Studies at the Wharton School, the Head of the Behavioral Ethics Lab, the Director of the Philosophy, Politics, and Economics Program, and is the Faculty Director of the Master of Behavioral and Decision Sciences Program at the University of Pennsylvania. She’s one busy woman! We met up with her at the NoBeC (Norms and Behavioral Change) conference that her program sponsored in the Kislak Center at UPenn.

Cristina’s program is in its 3rd year and hosts 75 students from 12 different countries. The unique program emphasizes practical applications of behavioral science and cross-disciplinary work. Students come from celebrity restaurants, tech businesses, NGOs, non-profits and global corporations and find the program engaging because of its diversity. If you’re interested, we encourage you to check it out – there are links in the episode notes for how to reach them.

We had some recording issues when we were talking to Christina. Some edits were made to accommodate our gaffs and we hope you won’t mind. And, because we recorded it on the sidelines of a conference, you might hear some background noise occasionally. 

© 2019 Behavioral Grooves

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD: https://philosophy.sas.upenn.edu/people/cristina-bicchieri

The Grammar of Society: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/grammar-of-society/2B063E9C9621C2340DEFB2BE15B3AEA5

Norms in the Wild: https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/norms-in-the-wild-how-to-diagnose-measure-and-change-social-norms/

Master in a Behavioral Decision Science at UPenn: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds

Decision Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory

Game Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

Epistemic Foundations of Game Theory: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemic-game/

Multiple Equilibria: https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/applied-and-social-sciences-magazines/multiple-equilibria

David Kreps, PhD: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/faculty/david-m-kreps

Social Norms: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/social-norms/

Conditional Preference: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cb36/files/2010_norm.pdf

UNICEF: https://www.unicef.org/

Gates Foundation: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/

Reference Network: http://www.iit.comillas.edu/technology-offer/rnm

Soap Opera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera

Well Told Story: https://www.welltoldstory.com/

Giuseppe Verdi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3UAd3d8I6k

Wolfgang Mozart: https://www.biography.com/musician/wolfgang-mozart

Bruce Springsteen: https://brucespringsteen.net/

U2: https://www.u2.com/index/home

Chicago: https://chicagotheband.com/

The Band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjCw3-YTffo

Styx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XcKBmdfpWs

Journey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMSFsZFFUzo

Fleetwood Mac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYHwH1Vb-c

Kurt Nelson: [email protected]

Tim Houlihan: [email protected]

Kurt and Tim like to read about behavioral science and a variety of related fields. To help those interested in the subject, but unsure how to pick good books to either get started or advance their learning, our 2019 Top 10 Reading List should help. Our Top 10 list is really a Top 9, since both Kurt and Tim already had one of the books on both of their lists. But we also go beyond that list with some honorable mentions (that could have easily been swapped for some of our top choices), as well as a shortlist of fiction and poetry for your review.

We hope you enjoy this year’s list and encourage you to let us know your thoughts about it. Did we nail the top picks? Did we miss some? What’s on your reading list for 2020? Who do you think should be a guest on Behavioral Grooves in 2020? Let us know. We’d love to hear from you.

Do you need some Christmas or Birthday gifts?  Or maybe you just want to treat yourself?   Here are links to the books we mentioned in the episode!  

John Bargh, “Before You Know It" https://amzn.to/33PdYJR 

Yuval Noah Harari, “Sapiens” https://amzn.to/34YWlZO 

Michael Mauboussin, “Think Twice” https://amzn.to/2qtfS5y 

Wendy Wood, “Good Habits, Bad Habits” https://amzn.to/2RlCjoc 

Rory Sutherland, “Alchemy” https://amzn.to/2OUfG8J 

Franz de Waal, “Mama’s Last Hug” https://amzn.to/2ORrEjg 

Francesca Gino, “Rebel Talent” https://amzn.to/36alEIb 

Roger Dooley, “Friction” (on Kurt’s AND Tim’s lists) https://amzn.to/2r86Gnx 

Alan B. Krueger, “Rockonomics” https://amzn.to/38bMQYU 

Honorable mentions for really great books that you should be aware of. Virtually any of these could have made our Top 10 list. 

Nir Eyal, “Indistractable" https://amzn.to/368qiX8 

Daniel Pink, “When” https://amzn.to/33QMrbg       https://www.danpink.com/

Daniel Levitin, “The Organized Mind” https://amzn.to/2qnL7Pf http://www.daniellevitin.com

Liliana Mason, “Uncivil Agreement” https://amzn.to/2RtIA1j 

Tali Sharot, “The Influential Mind” https://amzn.to/33S8wpN 

And since we have had great guests with great books in 2019 (we love them and their work), we want to refer you to these authors and titles:

Brian Ahearn, “Influence PEOPLE: Powerful Everyday Opportunities to Persuade that are Lasting and Ethical” https://amzn.to/38bc8q8 

Ori Brafman, “The Spider and the Starfish" https://amzn.to/2OUdLAQ 

Liz Fosslein, “No Hard Feelings” https://amzn.to/2LpVR6S 

Will Leach, “Marketing to Mindstates”  https://amzn.to/34UMwvB    https://www.will-leach.com/book

Stephen Martin & Joseph Marks, “Messengers”  https://amzn.to/2PfKU99 

Amit Sood, “Guide to Stress-Free Living” https://marketplace.mayoclinic.com/shop/healthy-lifestyle/book/mayo-clinic-guide-to-stress-free-living_294600

We didn’t speak to these on the podcast, because we were most interested in addressing behavioral science books. However, Tim is also an avid reader of fiction and poetry. Tim wanted to mention some books he’s read (or re-read) this year that were particularly rewarding.

Madeline Miller, “Circe” http://madelinemiller.com/circe/

John Updike, “Rabbit is Rich” https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/181928/rabbit-is-rich-by-john-updike/ 

David Whyte, “Everything is Waiting for You” https://www.davidwhyte.com/english-poetry

Thank you!  

© 2019 Behavioral Grooves.  Note that we may receive commissions when you click our links and make purchases. However, this does not impact our suggestions, thoughts or ideas. All recommendations are made by Kurt and Tim based on what they believe.

This is Behavioral Grooves’ 100th episode!

Who would have thought when we started out two years ago without a clue about HOW to produce and publish a podcast that we’d reach this milestone?  Our first podcast recording began with a very willing Dr. James Heyman, a computer with some recording software, and a dinky little microphone before a meetup we were doing that night. But the conversation was terrific, and we launched it with excitement. Today, we are more thoughtful, have better equipment, and continue to have great guests.

For our 100th Episode, we traveled to Philadelphia to host Annie Duke, Jeff Kreisler and Dr. Michael Hallsworth in front of a live audience at the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts. A little about each of them…

This episode covers decision making in an uncertain world with these three renowned experts. We talk about biases and hacks to deal with those biases. And we dove into the role that context plays in our decision making.

After the live event, Kurt and Tim groove on some of the highlights of the discussion. Following that, Tim shares a recap in the Bonus Track portion of the episode.

Michael Hallsworth, PhD is the Managing Director of the Behavioural Insights Team in North America, based in Brooklyn, New York. He has also worked on health and taxes in the Cabinet Office of the UK government and has authored behavior change frameworks including MINDSPACE and EAST.

Annie Duke is the author of Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don’t Have All the Facts, which quickly became a national bestseller. At one point in her career, she was a professional card player, where she won millions in tournament poker. And she is the co-founder of The Alliance for Decision Education, a non-profit whose mission is to improve lives by empowering students through decision skills education.

Jeff Kreisler is a Princeton-educated lawyer who became a comedian, then an author, and then a total advocate for behavioral science. With his co-author, Dan Ariely, they wrote Dollars and Sense: How We Misthink Money and How to Spend it Smarter.

It is important to note our sponsors. Podbean, who has been hosting us since the very first episode, supported our endeavor and helped us live stream our event to listeners all over the world.

We are very grateful to PeopleScience, an organization that supports the application of behavioral sciences with special emphasis on the world of rewards and recognition. PeopleScience is a terrific resource for job postings and original authorship. And, most importantly, PeopleScience is doing something that we love: they are bringing more science to the world of work.

Special thanks go to a few of our peeps, too. Ben Granlund and Raya Parks helped us prepare for and execute the event. Chris Nave and Eugen Dimant at UPenn sent their masters students to the hall after a very long day of lectures. And Trey Altemose managed all of the people and technical issues as our stage manager. Your best friend at any live event is your stage manager and Trey guided us at every turn. 

© 2019 Behavioral Grooves

Annie Duke: https://www.annieduke.com/

Jeff Kreisler: http://jeffkreisler.com/

Michael Hallsworth, PhD: https://www.bi.team/people/dr-michael-hallsworth/

PeopleScience: https://peoplescience.maritz.com/

Podbean: https://www.podbean.com/about-us

100-Year-Old Scotch: http://www.oldest.org/food/scotch/

Overconfidence bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect

Imposter Syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

Motivated Reasoning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning

Blind Spot Bias (The Bias Bias): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_blind_spot

Base Rates: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9780470479216.corpsy0109

Illusion of Control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control

Human Operating Systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40QCCMVZDO8

Choice Architecture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice_architecture

Tribalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism

Paternalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

Backfire Effect: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

Jay Van Bavel: http://as.nyu.edu/content/nyu-as/as/faculty/jay-van-bavel.html

Chris Nave, PhD: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds/contact/christopher-nave

Eugen Dimant, PhD: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds/faculty/eugen-dimant

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristina_Bicchieri

Jim Guszcza, PhD: https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/profiles/jguszcza.html

Alex Blau: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-blau-2271788/

Alex Imas, PhD: https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/people/faculty/alex-imas.html

Koen Smets: https://www.linkedin.com/in/koensmets/

Motown Records: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motown

Soul Train: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Train

The Five Stairsteps, “Ooh, Child, Things Are Gonna Get Easier”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DHRGrIqmb0

Big Thief: https://bigthief.net/

Yo La Tengo: https://www.pastemagazine.com/blogs/lists/2014/12/the-20-best-yo-la-tengo-songs.html

Bon Iver: https://boniver.org/

Joni Mitchell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Mitchell

Queen, “Bohemian Rhapsody”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsl3gBVO2k4

Violent Femmes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Femmes

White Stripes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Stripes

Cake, “I Will Survive”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KJjVMqNIgA

Gloria Gaynor, “I Will Survive”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OaEnA4diCI

Eagles, “Hotel California”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_California

Berry Gordy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Gordy

Supremes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Supremes

Temptations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temptations

O’Jays, “Love Train”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv0f4hd3UHo

Masonboro Sound, “Love Train”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjMthJZT3rA

The Spinners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spinners_(American_R%26B_group)

Hall & Oats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_%26_Oates

Katy Milkman is no ordinary behavioral scientist. She’s a Professor of Operations, Information and Decisions at Wharton and has a secondary faculty appointment in the University of Pennsylvania’s Medical School in the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy. She’s Co-Director, with Angela Duckworth, at the non-profit Behavior Change for Good Initiative. She’s the host of one of our favorite podcasts, called Choiceology, she is in the middle of writing a book, and she’s a Mom and Partner all at the same time.

We are grateful to her for taking time to record a conversation with us about her work on temptation bundling, the sorts of projects she’s getting at the Behavior Change for Good organization, and a few tidbits about what her book, coming out in 2021, will have in store for the readers.

Most importantly, Katy shared three important pieces of wisdom about behavior change during our conversation:

1. Behavior change is hard – cut yourself some slack.

Stay tuned for our BONUS TRACK at the end where we review key takeaways and offer up a Groove idea for the week!

NOTE: This podcast was recorded before Katy Milkman became a podcast phenom of her own and the audio quality in this episode, to put it diplomatically, lacks sparkle. However, we talked to Katy again in episode 232 and we think you’ll the conversation and audio much better there:

Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

 (C) 2019 Behavioral Grooves

Katy Milkman, PhD: http://www.katherinemilkman.com/

Katy Milkman – Twitter: @katy_milkman

Behavior Change for Good: https://bcfg.wharton.upenn.edu/

Choiceology podcast: https://www.schwab.com/resource-center/insights/podcast

Temptation Bundling: https://mayooshin.com/temptation-bundling/

Fresh Start Effect: https://faculty.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Dai_Fresh_Start_2014_Mgmt_Sci.pdf

Charles Duhigg: https://charlesduhigg.com/

BJ Fogg Maui Habit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L1R7OtJhWs

Robert Cialdini, PhD: https://www.robertcialdinibf.com/

Francesca Gino, PhD: https://francescagino.com/

Angela Duckworth, PhD: https://angeladuckworth.com/

Kurt Nelson: [email protected]

Tim Houlihan: [email protected]

Michael Jackson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson

Taylor Swift: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Swift

Chris Nave, PhD is the Associate Director of the Master of Behavioral and Decision Sciences Program at the University of Pennsylvania. We caught up with Chris at the NoBeC conference (Norms and Behavioral Change Conference) at UPenn. NoBeC brought together some of the brightest researchers in the field and we got to attend!

The Master of Behavioral and Decision Sciences program is in its 3rd year with 75 students from 12 countries. The students come from jobs in restaurants, fire stations, small businesses, and global corporations and they intend to leave UPenn with an understanding of what it means to be a behavioral scientist, but not actually BE one.

We met Chris through our friend, Jeff Kreisler, and we instantly connected as members of the same tribe. But it was even cooler when Chris invited us to attend the conference and to record conversations with some of the researchers.

This episode is the cornerstone of the series we recorded at the University of Pennsylvania and we are excited to share an over of the master’s program from Chris Nave.

Chris Nave: [email protected]

UPenn Masters of Behavioral Change Program: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds/contact

Piyush Tantia: https://www.linkedin.com/in/piyush-tantia-4727b74/

Baby Shark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrplOhMSoDU

The Cure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXCKLJGLENs

Red Hot Chili Peppers “Dark Necessity”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWioV5tO1lk

Miley Cyrus “Party in the USA”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M11SvDtPBhA

AFI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yzu-4kJg6g

Vivaldi “Four Seasons”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnDLlajMxyo

Chris Brown is in human risk management and practice is set in backcountry snow. He grew up outside of Philadelphia and after graduating with a degree in Urban Design/Architecture, he moved to Utah to pursue certification with the AMGA (American Mountain Guides Association) in avalanche training. 

Chris works as a ski guide and avalanche/snow science professional, but his real job is helping skiers overcome their biases. He incorporates the work of Kahneman and Tversky, Richard Thaler and other great researchers into his classes and we found his intentionality in decision making noteworthy.

We had a great conversation with Chris and we also want to express our gratitude to friend and colleague, Ben Granlund, for connecting us with Chris. Ben attended one of Chris’ classes and found it so engaging that he referred us to Chris. Ben was also delighted that Chris relies heavily on behavioral science and reminds us that the biggest threat to your life in avalanche country is your own decision making.

After our recording stopped, we discussed Guide Services for training. If you are interested, check out AMGA (amga.com) and the American Avalanche Association: https://www.americanavalancheassociation.org/

Chris Brown Email: [email protected] 

Chris Brown Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cbskiclimb/ 

Ian McCammon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKeoF53syKw

Phil Tetlock “Super Forecasters”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5Gicb66WA

Familiarity Bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familiarity_heuristic

Expert Halo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

System 1 / System 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Premortem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-mortem

Bruce Tremper: https://backcountrymagazine.com/stories/video-avalanche-expert-bruce-tremper-risk/

Bayesian Decision Making: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Bayesian_decision_theory

First Tracks: https://www.boston.com/culture/ski-guru/2012/01/31/its_all_about_f

Laurence Gonzales “Deep Survival”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTyfvOrEm1w

Wicked Learning Environments: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5c5d/33b858eaf38f6a14b3f042202f1f44e04326.pdf

Daniel Kahneman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman

The Tao of Wu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Wu

Kurt Nelson: @motivationguru

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan

Hip Hop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop

Reggae: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggae

Classical Music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music

Death Metal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_metal

Steel Pulse: https://steelpulse.com/

Wu Tang Clan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwAxmrE194

MadLib: https://www.stonesthrow.com/madlib

Gang Starr: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/gang-starr-guru-bad-name-video-909996/

John Coltrane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH3mb3oXCpw

Marcus Miller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kCi-SsYD5s

Stanley Clarke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcuigwtdzS4

Bela Fleck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWIfFIEeZjw

Victor Wooten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzL4BkqmzDQ

Herbie Hancock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhD4PD75zY