LessWrong (30+ Karma)

“Beliefs about formal methods and AI safety” by Quinn


Listen Later

I appreciate Theodore Ehrenborg's comments.

As a wee lad, I heard about mathematical certainty of computer programs. Let's go over what I currently believe and don’t believe.

First: what is formal verification 

Sometimes you get pwned because of the spec-implementation gap. The computer did not do what it should’ve done. Other times, you get pwned by the world-spec gap. The computer wasn’t wrong, your “shoulds” were.

Expanding the domain of compiletime knowledge

A compiler tells you the problem with your code when it is, in some sense, “wrong”. When you can define the sense in which your code can be “wrong”, you have circumscribed some domain of compiletime knowledge. In other words, you’ve characterized the kinds of things you can know at compiletime.

The less you know at compiletime, the more you find out at runtime. The less you can afford to wait till [...]

---

Outline:

(00:25) First: what is formal verification

(00:44) Expanding the domain of compiletime knowledge

(01:29) Isolating the bug surface to the world-spec gap, or sidechannels

(02:10) Exploiting inductive structure

(03:50) What I do not say

(04:00) Specify what you want

(04:42) Prove that the AI is correct

(05:56) TLDR, this whole genre of point the formal methods at the learned component itself is viewed by me as a nonstarter.

(06:13) What I do say

(06:20) Swiss cheese!

(07:24) Infrastructure hardening!

(08:30) Boxing/interfaces!

(09:29) Conclusion

The original text contained 3 footnotes which were omitted from this narration.

---

First published:

October 23rd, 2025

Source:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CCT7Qc8rSeRs7r5GL/beliefs-about-formal-methods-and-ai-safety

---

Narrated by TYPE III AUDIO.

---

Images from the article:

Apple Podcasts and Spotify do not show images in the episode description. Try Pocket Casts, or another podcast app.

...more
View all episodesView all episodes
Download on the App Store

LessWrong (30+ Karma)By LessWrong


More shows like LessWrong (30+ Karma)

View all
Making Sense with Sam Harris by Sam Harris

Making Sense with Sam Harris

26,320 Listeners

Conversations with Tyler by Mercatus Center at George Mason University

Conversations with Tyler

2,451 Listeners

The Peter Attia Drive by Peter Attia, MD

The Peter Attia Drive

8,549 Listeners

Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas by Sean Carroll | Wondery

Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas

4,178 Listeners

ManifoldOne by Steve Hsu

ManifoldOne

93 Listeners

Your Undivided Attention by The Center for Humane Technology, Tristan Harris, Daniel Barcay and Aza Raskin

Your Undivided Attention

1,601 Listeners

All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg by All-In Podcast, LLC

All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg

9,922 Listeners

Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST) by Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)

Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST)

95 Listeners

Dwarkesh Podcast by Dwarkesh Patel

Dwarkesh Podcast

512 Listeners

Hard Fork by The New York Times

Hard Fork

5,507 Listeners

The Ezra Klein Show by New York Times Opinion

The Ezra Klein Show

15,930 Listeners

Moonshots with Peter Diamandis by PHD Ventures

Moonshots with Peter Diamandis

547 Listeners

No Priors: Artificial Intelligence | Technology | Startups by Conviction

No Priors: Artificial Intelligence | Technology | Startups

130 Listeners

Latent Space: The AI Engineer Podcast by swyx + Alessio

Latent Space: The AI Engineer Podcast

93 Listeners

BG2Pod with Brad Gerstner and Bill Gurley by BG2Pod

BG2Pod with Brad Gerstner and Bill Gurley

467 Listeners