LessWrong (30+ Karma)

“Beliefs about formal methods and AI safety” by Quinn


Listen Later

I appreciate Theodore Ehrenborg's comments.

As a wee lad, I heard about mathematical certainty of computer programs. Let's go over what I currently believe and don’t believe.

First: what is formal verification 

Sometimes you get pwned because of the spec-implementation gap. The computer did not do what it should’ve done. Other times, you get pwned by the world-spec gap. The computer wasn’t wrong, your “shoulds” were.

Expanding the domain of compiletime knowledge

A compiler tells you the problem with your code when it is, in some sense, “wrong”. When you can define the sense in which your code can be “wrong”, you have circumscribed some domain of compiletime knowledge. In other words, you’ve characterized the kinds of things you can know at compiletime.

The less you know at compiletime, the more you find out at runtime. The less you can afford to wait till [...]

---

Outline:

(00:25) First: what is formal verification

(00:44) Expanding the domain of compiletime knowledge

(01:29) Isolating the bug surface to the world-spec gap, or sidechannels

(02:10) Exploiting inductive structure

(03:50) What I do not say

(04:00) Specify what you want

(04:42) Prove that the AI is correct

(05:56) TLDR, this whole genre of point the formal methods at the learned component itself is viewed by me as a nonstarter.

(06:13) What I do say

(06:20) Swiss cheese!

(07:24) Infrastructure hardening!

(08:30) Boxing/interfaces!

(09:29) Conclusion

The original text contained 3 footnotes which were omitted from this narration.

---

First published:

October 23rd, 2025

Source:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CCT7Qc8rSeRs7r5GL/beliefs-about-formal-methods-and-ai-safety

---

Narrated by TYPE III AUDIO.

---

Images from the article:

Apple Podcasts and Spotify do not show images in the episode description. Try Pocket Casts, or another podcast app.

...more
View all episodesView all episodes
Download on the App Store

LessWrong (30+ Karma)By LessWrong


More shows like LessWrong (30+ Karma)

View all
The Daily by The New York Times

The Daily

111,948 Listeners

Astral Codex Ten Podcast by Jeremiah

Astral Codex Ten Podcast

130 Listeners

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat by New York Times Opinion

Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

7,230 Listeners

Dwarkesh Podcast by Dwarkesh Patel

Dwarkesh Podcast

576 Listeners

The Ezra Klein Show by New York Times Opinion

The Ezra Klein Show

15,950 Listeners

AI Article Readings by Readings of great articles in AI voices

AI Article Readings

4 Listeners

Doom Debates! by Liron Shapira

Doom Debates!

14 Listeners

LessWrong posts by zvi by zvi

LessWrong posts by zvi

2 Listeners