Jamie Grant

Heather Parker

In this second episode with counselors Jamie Grant and Heather Parker, they talk about the gift of anger, how it is a gift to us as we learn to notice what's going on within our hearts when it arises. In this conversation they explain where anger comes from, inward and outward anger and the possibility that anger is masking other losses.

Connect to Episode 1: Does My Anger Matter to God? if you missed it.

 

Recommended resources

The Voice of a Heart: A Call to Full Living by Chip Dodd

Tim Keller's sermon, The Healing of Anger

The Faces of Rage by David Damico (out of publication but used books available online)

Heather Parker at waterstonecounseling.org

Jamie Grant at MetanoiaDallas.com

This episode is available on video as well.

Timestamps:

00:22 Introductions

01:10 Summary of Episode 1

03:33 Understanding where anger comes from

09:10 Outward and inward anger

16:15 Which is worse---outward or inner anger?

21:06 Losses can underlie anger.

24:38 Anger can be a gift.

35:47 Resources

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to our podcast and video episode.

We have today guests who have returned. Two weeks ago in our podcast we welcomed Jamie Grant and Heather Parker, who are both licensed professional counselors. We have been talking about anger. We've been talking about all sorts of things, and we're extending that today to a second session because there was so much information that they gave us that we want to dig a little bit deeper into anger, particularly as Christians.

So, Heather, tell us a little bit summarize a little bit of what we've already heard and talked about before we go into a new area of anger.

Heather >> Sure. So in the last one, we talked about the perception. Well, first we talked about anger—how do we see that in the image of God and really highlighting that God is slow to anger. There’s a real there's a lot of restraint and it's not long lasting. That is the truth of how we see anger in God.

That's not always how we're taught. Sometimes we're taught that he is a rageful God but Scripture tells us otherwise. So we kind of hit a little highlight on that.

We spoke of the perception of anger in the church—that oftentimes anger can be viewed as sin or it's bad. And if it's sinful and it's bad, then we're bad.

Yeah. Jamie, you can jump in at any time too. Yeah.

We talked a little bit about just the perception of it really highlighting the difference between God-given anger that shows us something's not okay. It exposes what we're passionate about and shows us something's not okay. It's not sitting well with me and can eventually inform how we want to approach that. And really highlight the difference between that and a rage or acting out or the quick-tempered what we often see in families and society. And even often in our churches.

We talked about, yeah, just how anger—sometimes people in leadership will want to make sure that people stay away from their anger. And that comes out in an element of control and that can look a lot of different ways.

But overall, the messaging around anger as being bad or negative starts really young and is often widespread, especially in Christian circles.

Yeah, anything I leave out, Jamie?

Jamie >> I think that was a great recap. I think what made it a nice kind of segue into what we talk about today is you know, if there's, as you were saying, like these beliefs around anger as being bad or if I'm taught anger is bad and therefore I internalize this message that I'm bad because I'm experiencing this emotion of anger.

There's also some other messages that we get as children because we're you know, this isn't going to be a parent finger-pointing episode or session. But we are—we’re sinful people raised by sinful parents in a sinful world. So we're going to get messages around our emotions based on how we're brought up.

Jamie Grant

Counselors Jamie Grant and Heather Parker answer the question, "Does my anger matter to God?" They discuss about how it is so often misunderstood in the church in this conversation with Dr. Kay Daigle.

Heather Parker

Because anger can masquerade as depression, we often fail to deal with it correctly. Trauma in children may cause anger that leads to other issues as they become adults. This insightful conversation can help us recognize anger and appropriately get help to deal with it.

This is an important topic for not only Christian leaders as they help others, but it is for all of us, knowing that we all deal with anger and that it matters to God.

Recommended resources

The Voice of the Heart by Chip Dodd

Tim Keller's sermon, The Healing of Anger

The Faces of Rage by David Damico

The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships by Harriet Lerner

Healing Developmental Trauma: How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image and the Capacity for Relationship by Laurence Heller, PhD and Aline LaPierre, PsyD

BOW episodes on lament.

This episode is available on video as well.

Timestamps:

00:21 Introductions

02:34 God's anger

08:28 How does being made in God's image change how we think about human anger?

10:37 How do Christians often perceive anger?

20:42 How can anger become a tool in the church for control?

25:39 What actually is anger?

32:10 Processing anger

33:41 Resources

 

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to this podcast and video episode. Today we're talking about anger with our guests, Heather Parker and Jamie Grant. Welcome, ladies.

Jamie >> Thank you.

Heather >> Thanks for having us.

Kay >> Well, I'm excited about this conversation, and I feel like this is an important one right now. But let me just introduce these gals quickly. Jamie is a licensed professional counselor, and she graduated with a degree in counseling from Dallas Seminary. And she specializes in working with adults with complex trauma. She practices in a private practice here in North Dallas.

And Heather is in Birmingham. And she practices at Waterstone Counseling. She's also a licensed professional counselor and supervisor and she specializes in helping people overcome trauma.

So both of them work with people with trauma issues and that's how we started talking about what to talk about. And they brought up anger as a possible topic. And I was so delighted that you did that, because our society is just full of so much anger right now. I don't think I've ever seen so much anger in my lifetime. And I'm old. So, you know, this is this is a very unique time, at least for the last, you know, century, I would say as far as anger is concerned. There's just a lot of hatred and a lot of anger toward anyone that doesn't agree with whoever it is. So all sides have anger.

And so let's just talk a little bit about anger.

Let's begin with us being Christians. I think it's great to set the standard for where God comes from on anger, because we know God gets angry. God talks about God's anger and he talks about it in the Bible. So what does the Scripture show us about God’s anger, You want to start us out, Jamie?

Jamie >> Sure. And without, you know, having a kind of list of the different references, just kind of a general idea of the God's anger in the Scripture. I mean, so many times I hear people or I have heard people delineate or make this delineation between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament seems so full of anger and wrath. And, you know, Jesus comes along and has like this compassion.

And so I think it's really important to remember the God of the Old Testament is the same. God is the God in the New Testament. And, you know, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all one. So there is no delineation; God is not divided in himself....

Dr. Nika Spaulding

Do you value the "boring" parts of the Bible? If you've ever read through the Bible or have encountered sections that you might consider boring, this episode will give you reasons to care about them. According to BOW's guest speaker, Dr. Nika Spaulding, Leviticus, the genealogies, and other scriptures can actually be places of learning, encouragement and joy. Her conversation with Dr. Kay Daigle will blow your mind as you see the riches that these passages hold.

Recommended resources

BOW's Media List - search for Nika

BOW's Studying & Teaching the Bible

This episode is available on video if you prefer it.

Timestamps:

00:20 Introduction to Nika and the topic

01:14 Who needs to hear this?

04:31 Scriptures that tell us we should read all parts of the Bible

06:32 What makes the details of the tabernacle so interesting?

14:40 What about the genealogies?

25:51 Best ways to read the Bible

29:03 Resources

 

TranscriptKay >> Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast and video. I'm Kay Daigle your host. And today I'm joined by Dr. Nika Spaulding.

Nika >> Wow. The Doctor! Wow!

Kay >> Yeah, well, we are so happy about that. And congratulations to you on that. That's a big deal.

Nika >> Thank you, Dr. Kay.

Kay >> You're welcome.

Well, Nika is a frequent guest. We have her often because she always has so many good things to say. And she has a Th.M. from DTS as well as a D.Min. from Northern Seminary. Today we are going to talk about valuing the so-called boring chapters of the Bible.

Nika >> Everyone. Everyone needs to hear. And I mean that! You know, you and I always talk about what is it we want to talk about? What do we want to bring to Beyond Ordinary Women. And it tends to just kind of grow out of whatever research I'm doing at that time, whatever I'm studying and learning.

And right now I'm doing this thing where I'm teaching through each book of the Bible, one chapter at a time. So I'm halfway on a little bit more than halfway through Exodus. We've done all of Genesis. We've done all of Exodus. And it made me realize how tempting it would be to skip some chapters. Like, if I'm being honest, there's some chapters and I'm like, “Huh, I'm not as excited about this chapter as I would, you know, Abraham sacrificing Isaac or whatever.” There's just certain parts of the Bible you think, “Really?”

And yet I have found because I'm forcing myself to do it, I'm discovering these so-called boring passages like genealogies, the tabernacle instructions, places like that. What I'm discovering is actually they are critical chapters to one, our understanding of the Bible. But also there's so much like good juice to squeeze out of that fruit for our spiritual formation and for our development. That shouldn't surprise us if Scripture tells us that all Scripture is God breathed inspired by God and useful for these things.

And so I really do believe this is one of those videos for everybody, whether you're teaching through the Bible, studying the Bible, coming to the Bible for the first time, confused about the so-called boring parts of the Bible. This is a video for you.

Kay >> Yes. I wish I had had this video when I started with my group, that is reading through the Bible in two years, because we've already made it through a lot of those chapters. And I thought you were very positive just to say not as excited about these chapters because I think many of us aren't even excited at all.

Nika >> About, you know.

Kay >> We just want to get through these chapters. This gal who is reading through the Bible with this group told us that she puts her finger under every name because in the genealogies or other times where they're lists of people just so that she reads every single name and doesn't just skip over it.

Nika >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's great. I not only do I teach through it,

Debbie Swindoll

Kelly Arabie

Debbie Swindoll joins BOW Ministry Team Member, Kelly Arabie, to discuss spiritual leadership in a fragile world. Too often people are afraid of being hurt and protect themselves by portraying a facade instead of sharing their real selves, even in the church. Debbie suggests a better way.

If you are a leader in your church or community, this conversation will benefit you.

Recommended resources

Grafted Life Ministries website

Life With God Journey by Grafted Life Ministries

BOW's resources on Godly Living

This episode is available on video as well.

Timestamps:

Time Stamps

00:21 Introductions

01:36 What is spiritual leadership?

03:56 What are the issues in our culture that make our world fragile?

08:25 What does it look like to lead people spiritually in a context of isolation and relational disconnection?

10:10 The importance of trust

11:42 How do we give people an experience of joy?

15:50 The importance of connection in our church communities

20:01 What are practical ways that small group leaders create that space in their groups?

23:40 Why is it so difficult to be in relationship in small groups & why do we feel the compulsion to fix, advise and rescue?

26:42 How do we move past the fear and shame in a group?

38:32 How is it different to lead a group like that?

41:41 Resources

TranscriptKelly >> Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women podcast. I'm Kelly Arabie. I'm your host today. And our guest is Debbie Swindoll. Debbie is a spiritual director, Pastor of Spiritual Formation at Journey Community Church in Allen, Texas, and the Executive Director of Grafted Life Ministries.

As founder of Grafted Life, Debbie envisioned and coauthored ten studies for spiritual growth. And she currently writes and speaks and consults on issues of relational theology and spiritual leadership.

Debbie's training is with the Talbot School of Theology's Institute for Spiritual Formation at Biola University. And we are thrilled to have her with us today. Welcome, Debbie.

Debbie >> Thanks, Kelly. When you said all of that, I'm like, “Boy, am I tired!”

Kelly >> Well, you know of what you speak. So and today's podcast is on Spiritual Leadership in a Fragile World. And so, Deb, I know you have a lot of experience, decades with spiritual leadership.

Debbie >> Yeah. You know, some let me just start by saying, what is spiritual leadership? I think we're very practiced and maybe mind full of being good leaders. You know, how do we get leadership training? How do we develop our skills as leaders? To be better prepared to lead other people-whether that's we're in the pastorate or where some other kind of leader maybe we're just a small group leader. But we're mindful of skills to make us better.

We purposed to talk about spiritual leadership today because I think that there's a maybe an under emphasis on the spiritual a part of leading in the church. What I mean by that is a life that's really grounded in their own relationship with God and is very aware of God in the world, in their own lives, in the life of the church, in the life of other people. And they're moving in that space all the time.

So in some ways, the skills that we get as a leader we may practice as a leader are only there to serve the awarenesses we have of God in our life and in others lives and how they're serving that awareness.

So there's this spiritual world that exists and are we attuned to that? Are we aware of it and open to it and moving in it? And that's kind of the spiritual part. That’s kind of the extra thing that I think is a part of spiritual leadership.

So that's kind of the context we're talking about. In this topic, which actually spiritual leadership in a fragile world that's kind of almost the special sauce, right?

That helps us to actually navigate in a fragile world.

Kelly >> So what are the issues that you think in our culture make it a fragile world today?

Sharifa Stevens

Dr. Beth Felker Jones

Why are we Protestant? Have you ever wondered what the differences are? BOW's guest for this episode is Dr. Beth Felker Jones, Professor of Theology at Northern Seminary, sits down with BOW Ministry Team Member Sharifa Stevens to talk about being a Protestant. They discuss how it intersects and differs from other Christian traditions. What are the major beliefs that differ?

We so appreciate that Dr. Jones approaches this topic with grace and humility, not with an adversarial attitude.

Dr. Jones' Resources

Dr. Jones' book Why I Am Protestant

Church Blogmatics Substack

Bethfelkerjones.com

This episode is available on video as well.

Timestamps:

00:21 Introductions

01:46 Who is your audience?

04:35 Orthodoxy isn't about thinking right but about a right relationship with God.

08:50 God cannot be caged by a fallible church.

11:31 Why is Scripture alone, Sola Scriptura, such an important Protestant distinction?

16:31 Why is it good that Ecclesiology, the study of the church (the structure, etc.) is not that specific?

21:18 What makes Protestantism good for women?

25:30 The greatest challenge for Protestants today

26:33 What would you say to those who say that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox aren't Christians?

27:12 Resources

TranscriptSharifa >> Hello and welcome to Beyond Ordinary Women Ministry. I am Sharifa Stevens, one of the hosts of Beyond Ordinary Women. And today, I am very excited to talk to Dr. Beth Felker Jones. Dr. Jones. I love saying that, so I'll say that every time. Dr. Jones with a Ph.D. from Duke University, is a midwestern writer and professor of Theology at Northern Seminary.

She writes theology and fiction, has published numerous books and writes regularly at her Sub Stack, which is entitled Church Blogmatics. I had to say that slowly. A lifelong book lover, as she writes about relationships, identity and redemption. Dr. Jones' latest book is entitled Why I Am Protestant. And we'll be talking about that book today. You can discover more about Dr. Jones on our website BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org.

Welcome, Dr. Jones.

Dr. Jones >> Thank you. Delighted to be here with you.

Sharifa >> Thank you so much for being here. Let's jump right in, shall we?

Dr. Jones >> Yeah.

Sharifa >> Okay, so in your book, as you were writing your book, Why I Am Protestant, who did you imagine reading your book as you wrote it? Who are your ideal readers?

Dr. Jones >> This is really bad writing advice, but I have trouble imagining my reader and I tend to just write. Really, it's awful. It's awful writing advice. But I suppose I hoped I was writing for other Protestants who might be thinking through both the joys and challenges of being Protestant, as well as for Christians in other traditions who might want to understand something more about the Protestant tradition. So that dual audience to mix it makes it a little bit trickier.

Yeah, I just wrote what I was feeling, and that's really what I did. So, yeah.

Sharifa >> What prompted you to this feeling? What prompted you to write the book in the first place?

Dr. Jones >> Yeah. Well, the book was written by invitation of Intervarsity Press. So really grateful for that invitation. And it's in a little series. There's also a book called Why I'm Roman Catholic, perhaps, by Matthew Levering, and in future, there'll be a Why I Am Orthodox volume. And Intervarsity Press' desire was to have a series here that is clear about conviction from theologians in these different traditions, but is also peaceful and kind and ecumenical.

There are some kinds of books like this out there that are more fighting words. Right? And this is intended more as a heartfelt testimony to my own tradition than as a why I'm not these things and those things. So I was grateful to be tapped by IVP to write the book. But I had wanted to write a book like this for a long time because it's the case that I understand...

Kay Daigle

Julie Pierce

Julie Pierce reminds all who are leaders in any position of the importance of unplugging like a pro, taking time to decompress. In this conversation with Kay Daigle, Julie schools us on why it's so difficult to do. As an experienced leader and now a coach, Julie has lots of tips for ways to unplug that work no matter what your role or leadership position entails.

Unplugging like a pro is doable and so necessary for the care of your soul and those who depend on you.

Other resources

Julie's website juliepierceleadership.com

BOW's You As a Leader page

Learn more about soul care in the series with Dr. Gail Seidel: 1. What Is It? 2. How is Your Soul? and 3. Nourishing Your Soul.

Learn about burn-out in this 3-part series with Dr. Michelle Pokorny 1. The Burn, 2. On the Brink of Burnout, and Beating Burnout.

Sign up for Julie's newsletter and download the document with questions to consider before unplugging. Or connect through the QR code below.

This episode is available on video as well.

Timestamps:

00:21 Introduction

02:06 What's going on in our culture that people don't unplug?

06:05 Why do you think ministry people don't unplug?

11:25 Learning to unplug

13:46 Preparing to turn your mind off

24:08 Knowing yourself and your needs

26:57 Unplugging also matters for those whom we serve and lead.

30:42 Final tips & tools

34:12 Other resources

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle. Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast and video series. My guest today is Julie Pierce. Julie, we are so glad to have you back.

Julie >> I am thrilled to be here. Always loved being on the podcast with you.

Kay >> Well, we love having you and you have such a wealth of information. I just want to get started so that the people who are listening can learn from you and learn how to unplug like a pro, because that's what we're talking about today. Let me tell you just a little bit about Julie. Julie does have a history of working on church staffs and leading communications and marketing efforts.

And Julia and I met quite some time ago now on a church staff. We were working together on a church staff and those were the roles that she had. But she's also done leadership development in churches, and she now coaches executives and teams.

There's a lot more about Julie on our website, so I don't want to go into every single thing that she's done, but it's a lot and she has a lot of experience in this area. And I know that you're going to want to hear everything that she has to say.

You can find out more about her on our website, BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. Go to the dropdown menu where it says About Us and go down to Video/Podcast Contributors and you can read more about what she's done. So Julie, this is a prevalent thing that people don't unplug.

How would you describe what's going on in our culture that people don't unplug?

Julie >> Yeah. Well, I love this topic because I desperately needed to learn how to do this. In other words, I learned the hard way.

Kay >> Yeah.

Julie >> And like we do so many of our lessons, right?

Kay >> Yeah, pretty much I've learned everything I know, I learned the hard way. I messed up badly and learned. Yeah.

Julie >> Yes. And so this was one of those things for me. And I think particularly now, we hear these phrases all the time. We're accessible 24/7. Everything is going 24/7, whether it's the news cycle or accessibility to anything and everything. You know, places rarely closed down, whether it's Sunday or at all. You know, there's, there are so many expectations as to be accessible and available all the time.

Kay >> Yeah.

Julie >> And we also live in a time where little things that can be blown up into huge things and everyone has this heightened sense of urgency all the time. And so we don't have a proper understanding or proportion for what priorities really are. And so it just adds on this pressure.

Dr. Sandra Glahn

Dr. Lucas Rogers

Don't miss this important conversation if you are a leader in your church!

Dr. Lucas Rogers shares with Dr. Sandra Glahn what he has learned from his research on conservative churches rethinking women in leadership. His extensive study of churches going through this process provides wise and practical advice for any church leadership considering this issue.

Dr. Rogers is available to consult with churches who are interested in being true to the Scriptures while being open to other interpretations. He suggests that it's not where the church ends up, but the process used that will determine the health of the church.

Recommended resources

Cultural Intelligence: Living for God in a Diverse, Pluralistic World by Darrell Bock

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion by Jonathan Haidt

Women in the Church’s Ministry: A Test Case from Biblical Interpretation by R.T. France

Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism from editors John Piper & Wayne Grudem

Discovering Biblical Equality: Biblical, Theological, Cultural and Practical Perspectives by Ronald Pierce and Cynthia Westfall

This episode is available on video for those who prefer to watch.

Timestamps:

00:33 Introductions

02:57 Introduction to Dr. Rogers' research on conservative churches that landed on different sides of the issue

10:23 Various influences on the churches' decisions about this issue

14:08 The approaches to understanding Scripture in the various churches researched

16:20 Best practices to work through this issue

19:12 What Dr. Rogers learned from the three churches studied

26:32 Consulting with churches about the process of considering this issue after this study

28:59 The need to take the time necessary and involve the congregation

32:21 Resources used in this process, sunk costs bias and cultural engagement all affect this process.

35:13 Suggested books on both sides of the issue

38:33 Any other advice to help this process go well?

45:04 BOW resources on other issues facing the church

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle. Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast and video. We are so happy that you've joined us today. We have two special guests. We have Dr. Sandra Glahn with us. Welcome Sandi.

Sandra >> Glad to be here as always.

Kay >> Yeah, it's always a treat to have you. We always look forward to having you. Dr. Glahn is a professor at Dallas Seminary. She is a professor of Media Arts and Worship there.

She's written over 20 books. She has so much to say about her that you just need to go to our website and read her bio because she has done a lot and she has produced a lot of work. And you can find her in many of our videos. So hopefully this won't be the last when you watch go on to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org and search for her name. And you can connect with some of her other conversations that we've had.

And Sandra invited another friend to be with us, the third male that we have had on our podcast. And it is Dr. Lucas Rogers. Welcome, Lucas.

Lucas >> Thank you so much. Great to be here.

Kay >> We are so happy to have you. Lucas is the lead pastor at Easton Bible Church in Hainesport, New Jersey. And he has both a master's and doctorate degrees from Dallas Seminary as well. And we're really happy to have you.

And despite the fact that you're only the third man, we really appreciate it.

Sandra >> That's true.

Lucas >> Well, it's my honor.

Kay >> Well, since our ministry is Beyond Ordinary Women, we have tended to focus on women in these conversations. But we're so happy to have you. And I'm going to turn around over to Sandi and Lucas to talk about our topic today, which I'm very excited about. I feel like many, many churches need to hear about the research that Lucas has done.

Sandra >> So Lucas has done a hard look at the best practices for churches that are reconsidering wh...

Dr. Nika Spaulding

 

Dr. Nika Spaulding joins Dr. Kay Daigle once again in this episode on the Church Calendar. If you are unaware of what that is, Nika will help you not only be informed, but also appreciate its beauty and how it can deepen your faith. We are now at the beginning of the church calendar year with the period of time leading up to the coming of Jesus, Advent.

Other BOW Resources with Nika on the Church Calendar

Why Celebrate Advent?

Why Celebrate Lent?

Other resources

Study from the Daily Grace Co.

Easy Explainer for the calendar

Great family devotional book on the calendar

This episode is available on video as well.

Timestamps:

00:32 Introduction to Nika and the church calendar

14:59 What is Pentecost? Why and how should be celebrate it in the church or even at home if our churches don't?

23:32 What is Ordinary Time?

27:12 So what? Why should we follow the church calendar?

32:34 Recommendations for someone leading in the church in any role

36:26 Resources on this topic

TranscriptKay >> I'm Kay Daigle. Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast and video. Today, our guest is Nika Spaulding. Welcome, Nika.

Nika >> Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Kay >> We're glad you're here. You know, I was looking at your bio. You sent us a new bio the other day, and it occurred to me that I never really asked you about having a zoology degree from the University of Oklahoma. What is that about?

Nika >> Oh, so I will say I was originally pre-med. So while having a zoology degree is incredible, I originally thought I was going to go to med school. And O.U. weirdly doesn't have a biology program. They have a zoology program that feeds into a med school which is so strange because Oklahoma State has a biology program that feeds into a vet school.

So it's not I don't know why we're you know, part of the reason why, though, I actually know the real reasons because we had world class scholars in that field at O.U. and we have world class research facilities, so they just kind of combine them. But even though I don't use my degree, I am utterly fascinated by the animal kingdom.

And so it was a really fun degree for me to get. And it always surprises people when they find out that's my bachelor's degree. So I joke, though, with that degree, I'm not even qualified to like work at a zoo unless I'm in the gift shop. So I would have to go on to a lot more school.

But, you know, there's always time if I decide to go that route.

Kay >> Well, I love that. I wasn't sure if you started zoology because you just wanted to go in that direction and then God changed your mind or if there was something else behind it.

Nika >> So it's definitely med school. And then to this day, I mean, even when I was a kid, if I saw blood, vomit, anything that doctors see on a routine basis, I get weak in the knees, I get sick to my stomach, I get all of these things. And I really was like, that's okay. I'm going to push through.

And so I was on my way to the MCAT in college at O.U. and God was like, you really, you really don't get it, do you? And I finally was like, all right, Lord, what is it you would have me do? So took a hard left into theology. So I don't know anybody who has a zoology/theology degree other than me.

I don't know anybody. And so, you know, but that's all right. Maybe there'll be more someday.

Kay >> I don't know either. You're just unique. Probably in the whole world.

Nika >> Sure. Well, it took me a while to figure out. I should probably follow God, so maybe I'm not unique in that way. I just went a weird route to that, but. Yeah. So it's fun, though.

Kay >> Well, that's fun. Well, you also have a master of theology at DTS, and you have a DMin from Northern Seminary. So you have definitely made up for not having some sort of Bible degree, I suppose.

Nika >> Yeah.

Kay >> at O.U. So we are talking about the church calendar today,

Gwynne Johnson

Kelly Arabie

Gwynne Johnson and Kelly Arabie, authors of Soul Thirst: Discerning Your Divine Design, explain how seeking to fulfill our needs in the wrong places harms us and our relationships. They provide a roadmap to enable women to recognize what they are thirsting for in place of the only one who can provide true satisfaction. God alone quenches our soul thirst.

This book is a blend of accessible story and biblical life principles that have transformed women around the world as they come to understand God’s design for the human heart.

You can also watch this episode on video.

Resources:

Soul Thirst: Discerning Your Divine Design

Website: www.soulthirst.net

Podcast Embrace Your Life--a conversation with author Elizabeth Woodson

Reimagining Discipleship: A Kingdom Perspective with Kay Daigle & Sharifa Stevens

Timestamps:

00:20 Introductions

02:40 Writing Soul Thirst

011:58 What is soul thirst and how does it affect us?

14:55 Thirst, mind, will and emotions are involved

16:10 Thirsts common to many women

18:39 How to best use soul thirst

19:50 A template for thinking about life

22:56 Final words of encouragement

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. I'm so excited to welcome you to this episode of our podcast and it’s also on video. We are just delighted to have you joining us, and I'm thrilled with our two guests today—Gwynne Johnson, Kelly Arabie. I've known both of them for many years now, and I consider them good friends of mine.

Kelly and I actually met at D.T.S., where we were both starting DTS, I think the same semester and went through the same program. Definitely. So I got to know Kelly really well there. And Gwynne and I have crossed paths in many situations. We've been on a couple of boards together, so we've worked together on things. And I really have respected all of her ministry that she has done through the years.

If you want to know more about Gwynne and Kelly and their backgrounds, go to our website BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org, and go to the pull down menu that is About Us. And look at Video Podcast Contributors. And you can read more about them, although I think they will probably talk some about some of their experiences as we go through this conversation today.

So thank you both for coming. Welcome on our podcast.

Gwynne >> Fun to be with you.

Kelly >> Yes, thanks for having us.

Kay >> Thank you. And you know, I did want to mention Gwynne and I are part of a group of women, and I just want to mention that because to me it's been such a helpful group, all of us who had been involved in ministry for years and we started gathering somebody invited us to gather together at Christmas and we so we started having Christmas luncheons together and we just became good friends and we pray for one another.

We support one another and encourage one another and challenge one another. And it's been a great encouragement. So for those of you out there, you don't even have to be leaders, but everybody needs a group like that. So I just wanted to throw that in there too.

Today we're talking about Gwynne and Kelly's book Soul Thirst that they co-wrote.

And first, I just really kind of wanted to ask Kelly, what was it like to co-write this? How was your process here? Is it hard to do two people doing different things?

Kelly >> You know, it was really fun. And I would say being able to collaborate with Gwynne and the conversations that we've had over the years were just such a blessing and a gift. It was a gift that Gwynne invited me to this project. And I'm sure she's going to talk a little bit about, you know, how this started with her ministry. But in 2008 was one of the first times that I think I went through Developing a Discerning Heart.

And as part of that, Gwynne came and spoke to our small group, and we just talked about the study and how amazing it had been.

Dr. Nijay Gupta

Dr. Kelley Mathews

Dr. Nijay Gupta, author of Tell Her Story, joins BOW Team Member Kelley Mathews in this fascinating discussion of persecuted women in the early church.

What can we learn from their stories? How do their stories encourage our faith and our own courage? What can we learn from them? What do we miss when we fail to study them?

These women's stories provide models for us today to stand up for Christ, to know that he is better than anything that comes into our lives, and to be willing to cling to him no matter what happens to us or our country in the future.

Recommended resources

By Dr. Gupta  Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church

Redeeming Eden: How Women in the Bible Advance the Story of Salvation by Ingrid Faro and Joyce Koo Dalrymple

nijaykgupta.substack.com

Christianity Today article by Dr. Gupta, "Junia, the Female Apostle Imprisoned for the Gospel"

This episode is available on video if you prefer watching.

Timestamps:

00:22 Introductions

01:40 Junia (Romans 16:7) and the conditions in Roman prisons, especially for women

13:25 What egregious activities would put a woman in prison?

17:17 Perpetua, whose diary provides great information about imprisonment, and Felicity, her slave girl

28:31 Blandina's story

29:30 Physical suffering in the Scriptures

37:26 Other resources

TranscriptKelley >> Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast. I'm your host Kelley Mathews. And today I have with me Dr. Nijay Gupta. He is a professor at Northern Seminary and a prolific author. Welcome, Nijay.

Dr. Gupta >> Hi, Kelley. Looking forward to our conversation.

Kelley >> So this is going to be fun, I think. I mean, well, fun. That's relative, I guess. But it'll be intriguing I think.

Nijay has written a lot of books. He's been a professor for a while. A lot of his books have to do with Paul and the New Testament letters that he wrote. But he's also written one particular book that is specific to our topic today, and it is called Tell Her Story came out a couple of years ago, and it basically tells about the women in the New Testament who were really involved in leading and participating in the mission of the church.

So it has become quite popular, from what I understand. I certainly enjoyed it.

Dr. Gupta >> Yes, thank you.

Yeah, it's funny. I, you know, just had an idea to write this book, and I sent it to an editor friend of mine, Anna Gissing, and she was so excited. And then it just sort of took off from there. So a big thank you to Intervarsity Press for publishing it.

Kelley >> Oh, they're great.

So one of the women in that book we're going to start with. Our topic today is specific, not that broad of women involved in the church, but specifically ones who were imprisoned for their faith. And one of the women you cover in the book does hold that honor, I suppose. And we're also going to talk about one who is post biblical days who are still in the early church and maybe will hit a third one.

So, Nijay, tell us who Junia is and why we need to know about her.

Dr. Gupta >> Yeah. A lot of my work on this subject owes a debt to Romans 16, which is the last chapter of Paul's big letter to the Romans. And I used to think of Romans 16 as a bunch of kind of hellos that Paul gives at the end of the letter, almost like end credits in a movie. And you sort of get up, you don't pay attention.

You leave the movie theater. And so I had a friend in seminary who actually memorized the whole book of Romans, and he asked me, how should I memorize Roman 16? And I said, You're at the end. Just finish it off. But there's that sense of you're preaching through Romans. You kind of, you know, have so much to work with.

Just in the first four chapters, let alone get to chapter 11, let alone if you get to chapter 15 that I don't know if I hear from any very many sermons on Romans 16.