Sharifa Stevens

Kay Daigle

Sharifa Stevens, author of When We Talk to God: Prayers and Poems for Black Women, talks with Kay Daigle about her book. Although it's written with black women in mind, any woman can identify with most of the feelings that permeate this beautiful book.

This is a book that prays women's feelings, as the Psalms do. There is something for each reader as Sharifa pours out her heart in these prayers and poems.

Recommended resources

sharifastevens.com

sharifahstevens.substack.com

Podcast series with Nika Spaulding: Understanding Lament & Practicing Lament

The Psalms

This episode is also available on video.

Timestamps:

00:20 Introduction to Sharifa & her book

01:39 Sharifa's heart for the book and how it came to be

08:03 How do you see women of other backgrounds connect to the poems & prayers?

10:08 What did you hope that black women of faith would take from your book?

11:31 Women are worthy to talk to God.

15:22 Some of the prayers may be challenging but no topic is off limits with God

16:35 How did you deal with reliving difficult experiences?

18:54 Sharifa shares a favorite, "Moving On Up."

22:26 Resources

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay with Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to our podcast. Our guest today is actually one of our ministry team members, Sharifa Stevens. And today she is the one being interviewed rather than just one of our team members. So, Sharifa, it’s so great to see you as always.

Sharifa >> It's always a pleasure to see you, Kay.

Kay >> Now, Sharifa, according to her book, Sharifa is a writer, a poet, a speaker, and a singer. And it's all true.

Sharifa >> It's true.

This is going to be so fun!

Kay >> I don't know... I'm not quite sure why you think this is so funny. That's the wonderful things that you are.

Sharifa >> It is. It's wonderful.

Kay >> She looks so sad.

Sharifa >> I'm so sorry. I'm not. I'm so happy.

Kay >> Anyway, we won't talk about you anymore if it'll make you feel better.

Sharifa >> Okay.

Kay >> You can read Sharifa's entire bio on our site BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. So today we are talking to Sharifa because she has a book, and it is beautiful. It is one of the prettiest books I've ever seen. And it is When We Talk to God: Prayers and Poems for Black Women.

So Sharifa, actually, I was just really blown away by your book, by the beauty of it, by so many of the poems and prayers in it.

It just really touched my heart in a lot of ways. It reminded me a lot of the psalms, which mean a whole lot to me, because you had a lot of raw emotion in there like the psalmist, and it all came from your heart. And there's no doubt about it. That kind of expressed your deepest thoughts. And, you know, just like the Psalms that give us words to pray when we don't know what to say to God.

I see your book is doing that for a lot of people there. There will be a lot of poems and prayers in here that will be very dear to many women who will read them and pray them over and over. I think, just like the Psalms, it will help people when they face difficulties be anchored in the Word when that happens.

Thank you for doing this.

Sharifa >> Thank you for those affirming words. And I am especially honored that you would draw a parallel to the Psalms because that was my goal. And I see the Bible as being so vivid and rich with emotional depth that it's not just an intellectual exercise to read the Bible. It is spiritual, and it's also emotional, and it reflects the fullness of God's love and of our humanity.

And so in the book, I wanted to reflect some of that back to the frankness and intimacy of the Psalms and the prophetic voice of the prophets, and the thirst for justice that echoes throughout the prophetic books, and also the playfulness of the Song of Solomon. They're just different beats in the Bible. There's history, there's lamentation, there's so much praise,

Kay Daigle

What does prayer with obedience look like? Claudia McGuire, BOW Team Member, talks with Kay Daigle about it. She uses Psalm 31 as her example of exactly how she prays and obeys God from reading and meditating on the Word of God.

This is an episode for any Christian who is searching for a deeper prayer life and application for her Bible reading. Claudia's honest insights into her own prayer life are invaluable.

Recommended resources involving prayer

Why is Prayer So Hard? Part 1: A Matter of the Heart & Part 2: Life Issues

Questions About Prayer

Prayer for the Overwhelmed

Entrusting the Future to God

Practical Prayer Solutions

Seeking Joy in the Psalms

This episode is available on video if you prefer to watch.

Timestamps:

00:18 Introductions

01:22 What does it mean to pray with obedience?

05:39 Psalm 31, an example of how to incorporate scriptures into your prayers and obedience

34:11 Other resources on prayer

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle. Welcome to our podcast for Beyond Ordinary Women. My friend who isn't actually a guest because she is a member of our ministry team, but this is Claudia McGuire, and we've had her on many times. Welcome, Claudia. I'm so glad you're with me today. Thank you.

Claudia >> I'm happy to be here today. Thank you for asking me.

Kay >> Right. Well, Claudia is going to talk about praying with obedience.

Now, Claudia has lots of experience in the church world. She worked at Chase Oaks Church for almost two decades, I think, a long time. She still speaks and teaches Bible studies and does leadership stuff and will speak at a retreat or a training of any kind.

And so today, she's going to talk about prayer. We've talked about prayer before, but today, Claudia wanted to talk about praying with obedience. So I have to ask you what does that mean to pray with obedience?

Claudia >> Well, I think that is a great question.

Kay >> You never expected one!

Claudia >> I didn't very well, actually. I don't think we think about it. I'm wondering if we think about that aspect of prayer enough for those of us who who do pray. I think that we just don't take into account that prayer is more than just casting our cares on God, just throwing things at him and saying, “Help me. Get help me get out of this—or whatever.”

There is an aspect of obedience, and that's kind of what I want to talk through as I go through this psalm. Psalm 31 is what we're going to look at. But prayer in itself, which is the ability to communicate with our creator. I think it started way back in the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve used to walk in the cool of the day in the garden and talk to God.

And I don't really see or know specifically how that morphed into our current prayer life. You know how we pray today, but we do see prayers all throughout the Bible, and it’s just a privilege that I think our God has given us. Not only is it a privilege, but it's also something I think that involves an aspect of surrender when we come to God. It involves trust that he's there. It takes vulnerability on our part to actually come before the throne of grace, as the Bible calls it.

And then, really when we open our hearts and our needs to the Father, that also involves listening and believing that he hears. So if we're actively praying about something without listening or looking for God to answer, we might be missing one of the biggest aspects of prayer, which is obedience.

Like if I'm praying about something—my obedience or what I might hear or sense—it’s that I just really need to keep praying about this. It’s something I don't have a peace about. I have no idea what the answer is or the outcome is going to be. That could be my obedience is just keep praying about it.

It could be that maybe God impresses on me to go to somebody. Maybe I need to ask her forgiveness. Maybe there's something that's creating a barrier between me and God. You know,

Dr. Sue Edwards

Dr. Kay Daigle

In this final episode of the three-part series Empowering Leaders to Survive and Thrive Through Conflict, Dr. Sue Edwards discusses biblical peace-making practices with Kay Daigle.

Connect to the previous two episodes in this series: Get Ready for Conflict, Leaders; and Women's Tendencies in Conflict. Or watch all episodes on video.

Recommended resources

Oletha Barnett's podcast series, Fight Right: 1. The Nature of Conflict, 2. Biblical Resolution 3. Accepting Other's Differences. All are also available on video.

All BOW videos on dealing with conflict

Book:  Leading Women Who Wound: Strategies for an Effective Ministry by Sue Edwards & Kelley Mathews

Elizabeth Woodson's short Leader Tip: Tell the Truth

BOW's downloadable resource list

Timestamps

00:21 Introduction to the topic

01:40 Deciding whether to approach the other person

04:08 Emotional health is necessary

05:17 How to identify women who are likely unhealthy

10:36 Contents of Sue's book

12:06 How Sue weathered the conflict she faced

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to the third in a series of our videos on conflict with Dr. Sue Edwards from Dallas Seminary. You can read her bio online.

We began by discussing Be Prepared for Conflict. And in our last video, we talked about just the Tendencies of Women—not for all women, but many women tend to deal with conflict in a certain way.

And in this video, we're going to talk about Peacemaking Practices for Sisters. And I'm excited about really getting into how to take care of conflict.

I'd also like to let you know that we did a series with Oletha Barnett that really gave the foundational principles that Sue's going to kind of take some of those apart in a practical way for us no—to how to make peace and what the Bible says about conflict.

And so that really is important for you to have those principles you may need to go back. That would be the third video in that series called Fight Right with Oletha Barnett, which you can find on our website. And also on our Vimeo page.

So, Sue, as you think about this, what are the peacemaking practices for sisters?

Sue >> Well, of course, as Oletha said, Matthew 18:15-17 gives us some really three different steps and that helps us know that we want to master that. Although it's easy to make things formulaic when you're in real situations. It's not quite that easy. But still the principles in these steps that Jesus taught us are wonderful.

Kay >> Well, let me ask you, before you even get into those, how do you decide that you need to go to one of those practices? How do you know when you have to sort of attack the problem rather than let it settle?

Sue >> Well, I know when there's a possible relational disconnect. That to me, relationships are so important for the unity of the body—that we women work together, that we love each other, we support each other. So if there is a possibility, if I see that woman at the grocery store and I go the other aisle or I'm still having imaginary conversations with her three or four days later, then I know that this needs to be dealt with. Or if I even get a sense that she's hurt or she's avoiding me.

And what we want to do is come together, but in a sense of a learning conversation. In other words, I want to sit down with you because you are important to me. I love you as a sister in Christ, and I don't want anything to interfere with our relationship.

And so if there's anything that might, so there's ways to do it that are not so scary. So, a lot of times we hate this. We think it's going to get mean and confrontational. It doesn't have to. And if that person is a healthy person, then you come at it with that kind of tone of voice and hard attitude because you think there's some issue, whether they did it, whether you did it, whatever.

I would go and try to work that through. And if they're healthy,

Dr. Kay Daigle

Dr. Sue Edwards

In this second video in the series Leaders, Survive and Thrive in Conflict, Dr. Sue Edwards discusses women's tendencies in conflict with Dr. Kay Daigle.

Knowing our womanly inclinations when confronted with conflict enables us to practice good peacemaking that will serve us well in such situations. As leaders, there will be times when conflict arises within our church or organization, and we need to deal with it well. Learning about women's tendencies in conflict will also help any of us to overcome our usual reactions and follow Jesus as peacemakers.

After all, Jesus values them as he said in the Beatitudes, "Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called children of God" (Matt. 5:9, NET).

If you missed the first episode, access Get Ready for Conflict, Leaders.  Or watch all episodes on video.

Recommended resources

Oletha Barnett's podcast series, Fight Right: 1. The Nature of Conflict, 2. Biblical Resolution 3. Accepting Other's Differences. All are also available on video.

All BOW videos on dealing with conflict

Book:  Leading Women Who Wound: Strategies for an Effective Ministry by Sue Edwards & Kelley Mathews

Elizabeth Woodson's short Leader Tip: Tell the Truth

This episode is also available on video.

Timestamps:

00:16 Introductions

00:58 What research shows

06:57 Women live in a relational web.

10:59 Approaching conflict with grace & strength

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. And I'm welcoming you to this second video in our series on conflict with Dr. Sue Edwards. Our series is really focused toward leaders, and Sue is giving us some tips on how to survive and thrive through conflict as leaders. In the first video, we just talked about being ready, being prepared, that conflict is going to happen.

And Sue shared some of her own personal experiences with conflict as I have. And in this one we're going to talk about women's tendencies in conflict because women have some tendencies that are a little bit different from the way men might handle conflict. As I told you in the first video, you can read Sue's full bio on our website as she is an Associate Professor at Dallas Seminary.

And we are so thankful that she gave us the time to talk about this. So Sue in your experience, in your research, what can you tell us about women in conflict?

Sue >> Well, I think, first of all, I would give a warning that we don't want to put everybody in the same box, that stereotypes are dangerous and misleading. But there are some tendencies that are real, and I've experienced them. You probably have as well. And as women and women leaders particularly we just need to be aware.

Kay >> Some of them will apply to the leaders themselves.

Sue >> Yes. Yes.

Kay >> And if you're a leader, you need to know what your tendencies are.

Sue >> Exactly. And you need to know that as a leader, often you're working with men. So if you don't understand how you may come at this differently, then you will possibly have some real problems. So this is helpful just to be aware.

Kay >> I think of the story you told in the last video that the executive pastor gave you 15 minutes to mediate an entire conflict. That's a man's tendency isn't it?

Sue >> Yes, and he ended up having to—then we had three or four more sessions as a result because there was no possible way because we were in this personally. That's something that we see Janet Lever has done research on children's playgrounds and she has spent large blocks of time watching children play together. And what she has observed is that the little boys will come together, and when there is a conflict, they will get into it physically and verbally. Then they'll be rolling in the dirt, and they'll be really going after each other.

But she's watching and the next day, they're fine. They don't hold on to this at all. It's just a way to work things out.

Dr. Sue Edwards

Dr. Kay Daigle

If you're a leader, get ready for conflict according to Dr. Sue Edwards of Dallas Seminary. It's inevitable, so we need to prepare for it as best we can.

Dr. Edwards and Dr. Kay Daigle tell the story of a conflict they were both involved in years ago. Dr. Edwards strongly suggests that we learn about peacemaking now and practice it in every part of our lives. Get ready for conflict!

Don't miss the second podcast in the series: Women's Tendencies in Conflict, and the third, Empowering Practices in Conflict. Right now all are available on video, but the second and third will drop on our podcast soon.

This episode is available on video as well.

Recommended resources

Oletha Barnett's podcast series, Fight Right: 1. The Nature of Conflict, 2. Biblical Resolution 3. Accepting Other's Differences. All are also available on video.

All BOW videos on dealing with conflict

Book:  Leading Women Who Wound: Strategies for an Effective Ministry by Sue Edwards & Kelley Mathews

Timestamps

00:22 Introduction

02:45 Get ready for conflict

08:07 Research confirms the need to become peacemakers.

09:43 Conflict in Jesus' life

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries, and I'd like to welcome you to a series on conflict. Our guest today is Dr. Sue Edwards from Dallas Seminary. Sue is the Associate Professor of Educational Ministries and Leadership there. Her complete bio is on our website if you want to read that. This series is really a follow up to a series that we previously posted with Oletha Barnett called “Fight Right,” which will give you the basics of conflict.

Sue and I today are going to talk more specifically about leadership. The title of this series is “Empowering Leaders to Survive and Thrive through Conflict.” So this will be specifically for you, but you will need the basics that Oletha gives about handling it and just some other tips that she has. It's a wonderful series. You'll find it also on our website at BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. This is the first in three.

Right now, we're just going to talk about “Get Ready.”

Just to give you a little background, Sue and I met years ago and really at the time, Sue was weathering a conflict that she may talk about some in this series. I got drawn into the conflict really when I wouldn't take a stand against Sue by the people that were attacking her.

And so I became a second target of these people. It bonded me and Sue because we were dealing with the same people and had experienced some of the same things. It was a very difficult time, I know for her, and it certainly was for me. So I know that Sue not only has studied conflict and studied scripturally what to do with conflict, but she has experienced conflict.

She has weathered it; she has experienced it; and she has learned about it.

So, Sue, I'm excited to hear what you are going to tell us about conflict and we're talking about get ready. So get us ready.

Sue >> I'll start out by just saying be ready because conflict is coming and the more influential you are as a leader, the more conflict you'll experience. And our experience was, oh my goodness, it was a horrendous year for me. I was leading a women's ministry and we were in the same church there.

And a rival Bible teacher (Now, those words should never even be in the same sentence, but that was the reality of what was going on.), she attempted to have me thrown out of the church as a false teacher, and it was over a doctrinal issue that at our seminary our professors agreed to disagree about. It's a gray area and godly people take different stands on it. But this woman she was not willing to do that. In fact, I remember sitting in the Executive Pastor's office, and she was glaring at me over the table and she said, “You are holding women's hands to hell.”

It was that kind of rhetoric that was going on and the Executive Pastor basically said, and of course,

Nika Spaulding

Kay Daigle

Nika Spaulding joins Kay Daigle for this fun and helpful conversation as she discusses using questions like Jesus. Nika did her doctoral research on this topic and it has changed her perspective of how to disciple others.

Whether you disciple your own child, mentor another woman or teach the Bible, this conversation will provide a lot to think about and some practical ideas for implementing questions.

Recommended resources

Jesus is the Question: the 307 Questions Jesus Asked and the 3 He Answered by Martin Copenhaver

What do you Seek? The Questions of Jesus as Challenge and Promise by Michael J. Buckley, SJ

The Questions of Jesus: Challenging Ourselves to Discover Life's Great Answers by John Dear

Re-Imagining Discipleship: A Theological Perspective BOW podcast with Nika Spaulding

You can watch this episode on video.

Timestamps:

00:32 This topic is for everyone!

02:19 How did you get interested in this topic?

03:39 Making disciples

06:28 What kinds of questions are we talking about?

12:00 Questions in Jesus' day

22:17 What did your research look like?

26:42 How can we learn to ask questions like Jesus?

38:50 Other resources

TranscriptKay >> I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to this podcast recording. Our special guest today is Nika Spaulding.

Nika >> Hey, friends.

Kay >> Welcome again, Nika.

Nika >> Thanks Kay.

Kay >> Nika is a frequent guest on our podcast and our videos, and we're just always so happy when you're able to join us. I’m particularly excited about this conversation today because you're going to be talking about asking questions like Jesus. And that just sounds so interesting to me. And as I was thinking about it, I thought there are a lot of people who could probably benefit from this.

I mean, the first people I thought of were like Bible teachers or people who write curriculum or people discipling other people. Or maybe even parents or counselors. I mean that the more I thought about it, the longer the list got. I just kept thinking of almost everybody. And in any kind of capacity there are times that they want to teach other people and maybe they need to use more questions.

Nika >> Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I mean, I started out studying this as a way to help, like, church leaders. And then the more I started studying, the more I thought that this is helpful to me as an aunt and as a parent and as really anyone who wants to love others. Well, I think we have to grow in this skill.

And so, yeah, I think the list is very long. But it might be everyone. It could be everyone.

Kay >> I'm kind of thinking that it is. I just hadn't gotten that far in my mind. I think I would have eventually gotten there because I just kept adding in small group leaders and, you know, just all sorts of people. So I think that's good.

Well, tell me just briefly how you got interested in this topic.

Nika >> Yeah, I think it was almost by happenstance. So I'm finishing my doctoral program and of course, you have to write a thesis at the end of your time there. And in the beginning I thought I would do stuff on you know, rhetoric in the ancient world, how we understand Bible reading in the ancient world, I thought about like all these, like, really niche things that I was like super nerdy right up my alley.

I wrote a bunch of papers on literacy in the ancient world, like, all these things. And then I realized, you know, wow, that's neat. And it's really fascinating. I more and more thought, I want to create something that can help the church. I wanted to create a tool that does exactly what we were just saying, a tool that can help others.

And really the impetus for it was a young woman that I've been discipling for probably 15 years came to me and said, “Hey, how do I disciple others?” And, you know, I kind of looked at it like, “Well, what's, you know, what's the other person going through?

Kelly Dippolito

Kelley Mathews

We hope that this episode will encourage many of you to use the Center for Women in Leadership, particularly its Visual Museum for Women in Christianity. It is of interest to anyone, and can be a great resource for pastors and Bible teachers. There is art to download and accompanying teaching on each piece.

Kelly Dippolito, Executive Director for the Center for Women in Leadership, joins BOW Ministry Team Member Kelley Mathews for this enlightening conversation about using the Visual Museum.

Recommended resources

Center for Women in Leadership

Visual Museum of Women in Christianity

The Alabaster Jar Podcast

Other BOW resources for Bible teachers

This episode is available on video.

Timestamps:

00:20 Introductions

01:55 The Alabaster Jar podcast

02:53 What is the Visual Museum for Women in Christianity?

07:02 Content on the site

09:20 What content is upcoming?

10:26 How is the best way to browse through the museum?

14:04 How can someone use the Visual Museum?

20:15 Wrap-up

TranscriptKelley M. >> Welcome to Beyond Ordinary Women. This is Kelley Matthews, and I am here to introduce to you another Kelly. So we're hoping we don't get ourselves all mixed up here. This is Kelly Dippolito and she is the Executive Director of the Center for Women in Leadership. Now, I've known Kelly for a long time. It feels like several years at least.

And we have a shared love for this subject that we have today. So I am super excited to talk about her ministry that she works with and also their specific project called the Visual Museum for Women in Christianity. Welcome, Kelly.

Kelly D. >> Kelley, thank you so much for having me on today. And I'm really looking forward to talking about the Visual Museum and the Center for Women in Leadership with you.

Kelley M. >> Yes. So give us a little bit of the origin story. Let's start with the center because it's sort of like the umbrella organization. Where did it start? Who's involved— that kind of thing? And what do you do each day?

Kelly D. >> Well, I serve as the Executive Director of the Center for Women in Leadership. The center was created by Dr. Lynn Cohick when she was provost at Northern Seminary. She is currently at Houston Christian University, of which you are one of her wonderful students.

Kelley M. >> Yes I am.

Kelly D. >> Right. So we transitioned the center into becoming a 501C3. A little over a year ago. And within that, we have a couple of projects, including producing her podcast, The Alabaster Jar and housing The Visual Museum of Women in Christianity, which is the project we'll be talking about today.

Kelley M. >> Yeah. Let's do real quick. Tell me about The Alabaster Jar. I know that you act as a cohost and sometimes it's just the two of you chatting. So what's the general focus of the podcast overall?

Kelly D. >> Well, we release an episode every Monday. Dr. Cohick is the host, and we cover a variety of topics in biblical studies and in topics that affect women in ministry, both in the church, the academy, and also the marketplace. What is it that's impacting our lives? How can we support and equip women? Those are the topics that we like to cover.

Also, we have some we try to do some series drops on Thursdays is related specifically to the Visual Museum, and in order to provide that content in a different way than just the website.

Kelley M. >> Yeah, Okay. Those are fun. Those come periodically. They're not every week. So. Yeah. And you guys do a good job of saying here they kind of. Yeah, it's going to be fun to look forward to. So.

Kelly D. >> All right.

Kelley M. >> Let's talk about the Visual Museum. And I have known about it since almost the beginning. So give us I know Dr. Cohick is one of the founders. Tell us about the other two and kind of how I got started.

Kelly D. >> Well, Sandra Glahn of Dallas Theological Seminary,

Jodie Niznik

Kay Daigle

Jodie Niznik and Kay Daigle discuss exploring spiritual practices beyond prayer and Bible study to help us walk with God. If you feel your spiritual life has become simply something to check off on a to-do list, exploring a spiritual practice that is new to you may be the key to revitalizing your soul. Jodie encourages us to try something new slowly, exploring spiritual practices one at a time.

You can also watch a video version of this episode.

Recommended resources

Jodie’s “So Much More” podcast

Jodie’s website

BOW Podcast episode with Jodie: Why Take a Personal Retreat?

Laura Murray’s Digital Silent Retreats

Jodie’s New Season Guided Retreat

Ruth Haley Barton’s book, Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest: From Sabbath to Sabbatical and Back Again

Additional resources suggested by Jodie

Timestamps:

00:32 Introduction

01:50 Defining spiritual practices

05:42 Silence and solitude

18:42 Sabbath

30:17 Fasting

35:34 Community

42:43 Final encouragement

43:43 Further resources

TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to our podcast and video. Our special guest today is Jodie Niznik. Welcome Jodie.

Jodie >> Thanks, Kay. So always good to be with you.

Kay >> And we always love it when you come on here. We've had some great conversations and I'll get into some of those at the end so that people know more about them. Today we're going to talk about spiritual disciplines. And Jodie, I need to tell you a little bit more about her before we get into our conversation. Jodie is an author, a Bible teacher.

She desires to help people make space for God in their lives. And she has a Scripture meditation podcast, which is fabulous, and it's called So Much More. And where can I get to that, Jodie?

Jodie >> Yeah, if you go to my website, which is jodieniznik.com, there are links there, but it's also on any podcast platform. So wherever you listen to podcasts, you can Google so much more scripture meditation and you'll find it.

Kay >> All right. Thanks for letting us know yeah. Well, as we start talking about spiritual disciplines, I just wanted to say from the from the get go that growing up in the church, all I knew was I was supposed to pray. I supposed to read my Bible, and I was supposed to give money. So I definitely came a long way.

And I'm sure that there are people out there that don't even know what spiritual disciplines are. So let's sort of start from the beginning. How would you define them? Just tell us about them.

Jodie >> Yeah, I love that you started with the basic spiritual disciplines that we know prayer, Bible study, giving to the church. Those are the practices that we know. But spiritual disciplines are actually much bigger and they all come from what we see Jesus doing. So Jesus, when he invited us to be followers, he said, “Come follow me.” That's what he said to the original disciples.

You all know that. And when we look at what he was actually inviting them to do, he was actually inviting them into a way of living. He was inviting them to do the things that he was doing so that they would become more like him. So spiritual practices are often called spiritual disciplines. Those two words are interchangeable. I like practices a little more than discipline because I think discipline, especially if we're breaking out of even kind of a legalistic background it feels a little harsher to us and not as invitational as a practice.

Practice has a little bit more freedom in the word for me, but a spiritual practice is something we see Jesus doing, but with the intention that we are being formed to be more like him.

Another thing I think is really important about spiritual practices is we're all being formed into something. We are all being formed intentionally and unintentionally, and some of the ways that we are unintentionally formed are the things that we do, the things that we read,

Sharifa Stevens, BOW Ministry Team Member

Kelley Mathews, BOW Ministry Team Member

Protestants in general often don't talk much about Mary, mother and disciple of Jesus. Kelley Mathews, however, provides us with lots to think about from her interesting insights into who she was and her life and witness.

What are the Seven Sorrows in her life? Kelly talks about them and what we can learn from Mary about being a disciple.

Don't miss this lively discussion about Mary, mother and disciple of Jesus.

This episode is also available on video.

Recommended resources

Women in the Story of Scripture podcast episode

Artwork mentioned:1) Michelangelo Buonarroti, The Pietà, 1498-1499, St. Peter’s Basilica, Vatican City. 2) Artist Unknown, Theotokos, Our Lady of Sorrows, created 6th-7th century.

Timestamps:

00:21 Introductions

01:35 Why Talk about Mary?

02:40 Mary of the Seven Sorrows

05:31 Simeon's Prophecy

07:43 The Pietà

09:38 Protestants and Mary

10:59 What can we learn from Mary as a disciple?

17:06 The through-line between Mary's Magnificat and Jesus' themes

20:18 Mary's humility

25:26 Mary behind the scenes

29:04 Art depicting Mary

32:58 Mary as an eyewitness

35:00 Resources

TranscriptSharifa >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. I am your host, Sharifa Stevens, and today I have the pleasure of talking to Kelley Mathews. Kelley Mathews has ministered to the church through writing and editing for over 25 years, though it does not look like it! Kelley has co-authored eight books, including 40 Questions About Women in Ministry. She is a freelance writer and editor, a former women's ministry director and Bible study teacher.

She has been married to John, a school administrator, for 27 years. They are parents to four active, mostly grown children. Kelley earned her Master of Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary in the year 2000 and is currently pursuing a Doctor of Ministry in New Testament from Houston Theological Seminary. Welcome, Kelley.

Kelley >> Hello. Hello. It's kind of fun being on this end of the screen, right?

Sharifa >> I'm glad.

Kelley >> Right. Yeah. I'm usually one of the interviewers.

Sharifa >> But today I'm interviewing you because we are going to be talking about Mary, the mother of Jesus. Now we're talking about her perhaps in a different light than the audience might usually be used to her. We usually don't hear about Mary unless it's Christmas time. Right?

Kelley >> Right. Right. Seems a little weird to be talking about her now because it's nowhere near Christmas when we're recording. And you should be listening to this after the New Year for sure.

Sharifa >> Exactly. But when we only hear from Mary about Mary at Christmas time, there is so much depth and wisdom that we miss. She is a part of our cloud of witnesses, so to speak.

Kelley >> Yeah.

Sharifa >> Someone to glean wisdom from and to learn from and to take inspiration from. Well, you’re studying about Mary in part for your dissertation.

Kelley >> Yes.

Sharifa >> I want to get into it with you. One of the ways that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is identified in the larger church and traditionally in the Roman Catholic Church is as Mary of the Seven Sorrows. Is that correct?

Kelley >> Yes.

Sharifa >> What is. . .

Kelley >> Mary has a lot of titles.

Sharifa >> A lot of Titles.

Kelley >> That's yeah, that's definitely one thing I think Protestants don't understand or may not even be aware of is the fact that the larger church and we could say the Catholic Church with this started way before there was any division of church when we were all united in the Patristic Era and then through the Medieval Time and all that.

Mary was very much honored and she came by all these different names to emphasize different parts of her character and role within the church. Typically, as someone that would be an intercessor,

Dr. Jennifer McNutt, author of The Mary We Forgot

BOW Team Member, Sharifa Stevens

Who is the Mary that we forgot? Mary Magdalene. Although she was the first apostle or messenger of the Good News, Dr. Jennifer McNutt says that her story is often confused, scandalized, and undervalued by the church. Don't miss Dr. McNutt's lively conversation with Sharifa Stevens about her book, The Mary We Forgot.

In this podcast, Dr. McNutt helps us see Mary's prominence in the Gospels and how she serves as a model of discipleship for both men and women today instead of being the Mary we forgot.

This episode is also available on video.

Resources:

The Mary We Forgot: What the Apostle to the Apostles Teaches the Church Today

Jennifer Powell McNutt

McNuttshell Ministries

Timestamps:

00:21 Introducing Dr. Jennifer Powell McNutt

01:56 What compelled you write about Mary Magdalene?

06:42 What do we Protestants tend to forget about Mary Magdalene?

09:06 Who is she according to the biblical account?

19:48 A hermeneutic of surprise

23:38 Her story shows God's power.

27:41 Advice for women called to ministry but limited in opportunity

31:57 Who are the people whom we tend to overlook today?

35:05 Why read the book, The Mary We Forgot?

TranscriptSharifa >> Hi, and welcome to another episode of Beyond Ordinary Women. My name is Sharifa Stevens, and I have the distinct honor of welcoming Dr. McNutt to our program today. Let me tell you a little bit about this scholar Jennifer Powell McNutt is the Franklin S. Dyrness Chair of Biblical and Theological Studies and Professor of Theology and History of Christianity at Wheaton College.

She is an award-winning author, a fellow in the Royal Historical Society and an ordained teaching elder in the Presbyterian tradition. Dr. McNutt serves as a Parish Associate at her church and regularly speaks at universities, seminaries and churches across the country. She and her husband co-founded McNuttshell Ministries, which is fun to say, which serves as a bridge between the Academy and the church.

They live with their three children in Winfield, Illinois. Dr. McNutt is also the author of a book that we are talking about today, which is called The Mary We Forgot. Go out and get it. Dr. McNutt, it’s an honor to be with you today. Thank you for coming.

Dr. McNutt >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to meet you and to get connected with your ministry and the good work that you're doing.

Sharifa >> Thank you. Well, why don't we just dive right into it?

So what compelled you to write The Mary We Forgot? And how did that conviction sustain you through the research and writing and in the process through the years—working and children?

Dr. McNutt >> Yes, I think, it's been a long journey with Mary Magdalene. I talk a little bit about that journey in my book—about going to see Jesus Christ Superstar as a teenager and being super confused. And sort of wondering and I think, you know, because of the fact that in my church, we really did include the women of the Bible.

But with Mary Magdalene, it was so very muddled, very confused about who she was and what she means when she is this first witness at the empty tomb and before the risen Christ on that Easter Sunday.

You know, there's so many questions. I think as a woman who was drawn and called to ministry, I have been, you know, wanting to understand the Gospels and women in the Gospels and how they have contributed to Jesus's ministry. And also in the Pauline epistles as well. I think there are other women that I would go to before I would go to Mary Magdalene.

And a lot of that had to do with kind of the back story that, you know, traveled with her everywhere.

Then, you know, later as a scholar, I worked on the history of the Bible and history of the interpretation of the Bible. And I focused on the Reformation. And it was just so interesting to see how the reformers—both the male refor...