Blacklisted

Tired of the screenwriting software out there, four-time Black List screenwriter Michael Sherman did what any writer with a coding itch would do: he built his own.

He's certainly qualified.

Sherman is one half of the duo Steve Desmond and Michael Sherman, co-writers of Knock at the Cabin, directed by M. Night Shyamalan (The Sixth Sense, Unbreakable, Signs), which was released by Universal Studios and debuted #1 at the Box Office.

Useful links:

Revision Screenwriter - Michael's software

Dreaming Ants - Steve and Michael's website

M Night Shyamalan's YouTube Channel

State of the Story - DGA Theater October 4th - Tickets!

Screenwriting360 - Online Membership

USE COUPON CODE 'HILL' FOR 25% OFF

• ​Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
• ​Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Before he was writing Air for Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, Alex Convery was chasing his own guy on the sidelines of college football. In this episode, Convery breaks down Bag Man, his 2018 Black List script about a college football fixer navigating star quarterbacks, blue-chip recruits, and the NCAA agent closing in on him — a world Convery mined for a script unlike anything else on the market that year.

We talk about how he found the "bag man" as a character nobody had put at the center of a movie before, how the script's momentum landed him UTA representation off a spec, and what it's like following up a Black List debut with an even bigger swing (his Stan Lee biopic Excelsior! made the list a year later).

Convery gets into structure, research, and the instinct for finding a true story's most cinematic entry point — the same instinct that would eventually lead him to Sonny Vaccaro and Air.

Guest: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Convery on ⁠Instagram⁠ and X

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠X⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

Alex Convery Interview (Air) - Act Two Podcast

Alex Convery Interview (Air) - The Hollywood Hang

'Air' To Get Theatrical Release - Deadline

'Air' Package Picked Up By Amazon-MGM - THR

Bag Man - ScriptShadow Review

Excelsior! - ScriptShadow Review

Alex In His Own Words - L.A. Times

Alex On What Made Air Rise - Final Draft

• ​Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
• ​Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Before Fifty Shades of Grey, before Venom, Kelly Marcel wrote a spec about a two-week standoff between Walt Disney and P.L. Travers, and it landed on the 2011 Black List.

This week on Blacklisted, Kelly joins me to talk about turning one of Disney's most closely guarded pieces of company history into Saving Mr. Banks.

We also get into her leap from Terra Nova to features, and why she still believes in writing the script nobody asked for.

And yes, saying 'no' to Stephen Spielberg...

Guest: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kelly Marcel⁠⁠⁠ on Instagram

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, X and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

Disney Acquiring 'Saving Mr. Banks' - Deadline

Kelly Marcel Interview - Go Into The Story

Saving Mr. Banks (Script Review) - ScriptShadow

Emma Thompson Interview - Variety

Movie Structure Analysis - Helping Writers Become Authors

• ​Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
• ​Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This week on Blacklisted, we're doing something new: bringing a writer and the executive who developed the idea with him into the same room, together.

Leo Sardarian and Joe Russo join me to talk about Nicholas — the 2013 Black List script that reimagines the man behind the St. Nicholas myth as the hero of a sprawling, Odyssey-style journey through the ancient world. Forget the sleigh and the workshop: this is Nicholas of Myra, a real 4th-century bishop, recast as a battle-tested wanderer fighting his way north.

The idea started with Joe. Leo and Joe walk through how it first took shape, how they built it together from concept to spec, the years of development that turned it into a Black List title, and the long road from page to greenlight — Nicholas is maybe soon to be headed to the screen as a seasonal mini-series.

We get into what that collaboration actually looked like: an executive and a writer shaping a passion project from the ground up, and what it takes to protect an idea like that inside the studio system without losing what made it special in the first place

Guest: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Leo Sardarian⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠ ⁠X⁠⁠

Joe Russo on Instagram, X and TikTok

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

Leo Sardarian makes The Hit List 2017

The Expansion Project - Black List 2017

Atlas Review - Deadline

Joe Russo sells spec to Universal, Raimi and Peele - THR

• ​Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
• ​Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This week on Blacklisted, we're joined by screenwriter Kat Wood, whose spec script Ruby made the 2020 Black List and sold to Amazon Studios and 87North in a competitive situation.

Kat's path here is its own story - she started as a BBC broadcast journalist in the UK before breaking into Hollywood with sci-fi specs Envoy and Genus, both of which sold to Amy Pascal's Pascal Pictures.

We dig into how Ruby took a familiar genre - the assassin thriller - and found a fresh way in, the process of getting a female-led action spec noticed in a crowded market, and her meteoric start directing Maggie Gyllenhaal in a short film on Venice Beach! If you're working on a genre spec and wondering how to make a familiar premise feel new, this one's for you.

Guest: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Kat Wood⁠ on ⁠Instagram⁠ and ⁠X⁠

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

Fantastic Four - Trailer

Jameson Short Film - Home (8 mins)

Ruby Spec Sale - Deadline

David Boxerbaum Talks About Ruby Sale - Into The Story

Ruby Review - Scriptshadow

Envoy Spec Sale - Deadline

Genus Spec Sale - Deadline

Pete Spec Sale - Deadline

Kat Wood Signs With Range Media Partners - Variety

• ​Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
• ​Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

This week we're joined by writing partners Lou Howe and Todd Bartels, whose Dolly Parton origin story Dumb Blonde landed on the 2022 Black List - and whose next collaboration just got a lot bigger. Their Anthony Bourdain feature Tony, directed by Matt Johnson and starring Dominic Sessa, hits theaters from A24 this week, and we get into what it actually looks like to go from a beloved-but-unproduced script to a movie in theaters.

We trace their partnership all the way back to high school, where the two met and first started acting before they ever thought about writing together professionally. From there we dig into the mechanics of co-writing - how they split scenes, fight for lines and banish widows - plus the very different challenges of cracking a music-icon origin story versus a pre-fame character study of a guy everyone thinks they already know.

If you've ever wondered what a writing partnership actually looks like day-to-day, this one's for you.

Guest: ⁠⁠⁠Todd Bartels on Instagram and X

Lou Howe on ⁠Instagram⁠⁠ and X

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

Tony - A24 Trailer

Tony - Official Website

Tony - THR Review

Tony - Cast Conversation (YouTube)

• Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠

• Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠.

What does it look like when a spec script becomes a Spielberg film? Ask Liz Hannah.

In 2016, Hannah — a first-time feature writer who'd spent four years in development before switching to the page — wrote a script about The Washington Post's decision to publish the Pentagon Papers. She wrote it because the story of Katharine Graham, the first female publisher of a major American newspaper, was one she couldn't shake. Her best-case scenario was getting an agent. Instead, the script placed second on the 2016 Black List, landed at Amy Pascal's desk, and sold the day after Pascal read it. Weeks later, Steven Spielberg called. Meryl Streep and Tom Hanks followed.

We get into what drew her to Graham's story in the first place, how she found a personal way in to such a monumental piece of American history, and how she defied ‘one in a million’ odds to get her first movie made by Steven Spielberg.

Guest: ⁠⁠Liz Hannah⁠ on Instagram⁠

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

The Making of The Post - YouTube

Liz's Writing Office Set-Up - Variety

Episode Link - Post producer, Trevor White

Episode Link - Post producer, Allan Mandelbaum

Liz Hannah Interview - The Washington Post

Overall Deal with Sony TV - Deadline

'The God of the Woods' - Mini-Series Press Release

• Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠

• Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠.

Aaron Karo wrote a Black List script about a toy that turned into a bomb scare.

This week's guest is comedian, author, and screenwriter Aaron Karo, whose spec Tickle Me Elmo landed on the 2024 Black List.

On paper, it's the story of how a $28 vibrating plush toy nearly tanked a toy company's supply chain, and turned suburban parents into brawlers. Off paper, it's personal — Karo's father was a Tyco executive who carried the first Tickle Me Elmo prototype through airport security, where its internal mechanism read as an explosive on the X-ray and he had to disarm it — by tickling it — in front of armed guards.

Aaron and I get into how you build a movie around a toy instead of a person, the rise of the corporate biopic and what it took to get a spec this specific onto "the list."

Guest: ⁠Aaron Karo⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠X ⁠and ⁠TikTok⁠⁠

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

Man of the Year Podcast

Black List 2024 - Variety

Elf Unwrapped: Behind The Scenes of a Modern Christmas Classic - HarperCollins

Aaron Karo: Ruminations

Aaron Karo: Books!

The Buddy System - Audible

• Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠⁠

• Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠⁠here⁠⁠.

What happens when the line between life and art disappears completely?

That's exactly what happened to today's guest, Julia Yorks, writer of the 2024 Black List script The 7 Guys You Date Before Marriage, about a newly single woman diving back into the dating pool after the collapse of a ten-year relationship.

Here's the twist: that exact heartbreak happened to her between the first and second drafts.

She's been remarkably open about it, chronicling the whole thing for her 75K+ followers across social media.

But this isn't just a story about heartbreak; Julia just sold the project to Sony.

Find out how she turned tears into a sale in today's interview.

Guest: Julia Yorks on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠X and TikTok⁠

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

ScriptWell: The Community for Screenwriters

Go Into The Story: Interview

Eat, Cry, Write - by Julia Yorks (Substack)

Shyamalan's 'The Happening' Deserves Another Chance - Den of Geek

Jack Reacher and Sandy Hook - Guardian

• Visit the new Stan Store @ ⁠stan.store/blacklisted⁠

• Subscribe to our extended interviews on Spotify ⁠here⁠.

How do you land a spot on the annual Black List without an agent or manager? Just ask this week's guest, Richard Martin.

Richard cracked the 2025 Black List with Geezers — a slasher set in a Florida retirement complex. Think Golden Girls meets Scream. Or, put another way: how would Blanche deal with Ghostface? Fun!

After earning his master's at USC, Richard spent a decade as a development exec at Bad Hat Harry Productions, shepherding projects from studio tentpoles like X-Men: First Class and X-Men: Days of Future Past to indie horror gems like The Taking of Deborah Logan. He's since moved into directing and producing — helming Hulu's horror-comedy series Spooked — and picked up a ScreenCraft Grand Prize along the way.

Guest: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Richard Martin on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠X⁠⁠

Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Hill⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BlueSky⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠storyandplot.com/blacklisted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for a 10% discount on Tom Vaughan's fantastic screenwriting courses.

Useful links:

Jamie Lee Curtis presents GEEZERS - Black List

Save The Cat

Michael Arndt - Story Structure Videos