Call and Response Podcast Special Edition with Krishna Das | April 8, 2021

“Shame is a trip we’re doing to ourselves. Forget about whether we’ve actually hurt somebody or not. The feeling of shame, that’s different than remorse, by the way. Remorse is truly recognizing that we’ve hurt someone, wishing that we had not created that suffering and hoping that we don’t create it again, and not just hoping, but doing what’s necessary that we don’t create more suffering again for others and ourselves. But shame, that’s a different thing. Remorse is useful. Remorse of spirit, that leads to, in Christianity they talk about confession. That’s ultimately what confession is supposed to be, giving up the feelings that of shame and stuff like that and starting again. You can’t forget what you’ve done. But what you have done in the past can stop bullying you in this moment if we truly have remorse.” – Krishna Das

Namaste, everybody. Welcome to earth.

Nice to be here. As you can see, I’m not exactly where I was last time I was somewhere. Now I’m here and through the graces of the Integral Yoga Institute in the Holy city of San Francisco, we come to you semi-live.

I had to come out to the west coast for something, and befI had to change my plans before I could get home to do the Thursday night chanting, and so luckily our friends here at IYI manifested this whole thing, just like that. So, many thanks to them. They’re already asleep here, but that’s okay. It just looks like sleep. It’s actually the natural state.

We did 53 straight weeks from home, except actually one, when I was recording the audio book for “Chants of a Lifetime.” 53 weeks. And then I got on a plane, and I don’t think I’ll know that I’m actually still alive till I get back home, but I’m doing the best I can.

So, some of you may have heard this story before, but imagine how many times I’ve heard it. It was in the temple. It was in the days that we were coming back and forth from Nainital, which was the town nearby and coming to Kainchi, to the temple, Maharajji’s temple there. So, we came one day and as we were sitting there, these two old sadhus walked into the temple, and they were wandering sadhus, monks maybe. And they came into the temple and they asked Maharajji if they could stay for a while, and he said, “Yeah, you can stay. But every day I want you to sit out in front of the Hanuman temple and sing ‘Sita Ram.’ Just ‘Sita Ram.’” For three hours in the morning.

Okay. Not bad rent to pay.

So, the next day we arrived, and they were out there singing, the two of them, sitting opposite each other in front of the temple. They didn’t have any shakers or bangers or clangers or drums or anything. They were just singing. One of the guys would go, “Sita Ram, Sita Ram, Sita Ram, Jai Sita Ram.”

And the other guy would answer, “Sita Ram, Sita Ram, Sita Ram, Jai Sita Ram.”

“Sita Ram, Sita Ram…”

Back and forth, back and forth. So, we were just sitting, waiting for Maharajji to come out, and this chanting was going on in the background. We heard it. And all of a sudden, I don’t know, something happened, maybe they got bored, so one guy goes, “Sita Ram, Sita Ram, Sita Ram Jaya Lakshaman.”

Oh. Jazz.

So, the other guy goes, “Sita Ram, Sita Ram, Lakshaman Jai Hanuman.”

And before you know it, they’re going, “Rama Lakshaman Janaki…” having a great time.

So, all of a sudden, from inside his room, inside a room, you hear Maharajji’s voice yell “Sita Ram!”

That moment when Maharajji yelled… I saw the whole thing. I’d heard it, but I hadn’t focused on it. So, they had drifted off. They had just gone with the… Maharajji said, “Sita Ram” only.

He said that.  They had just gone off on their thing, probably getting bored with just the good old “Sita Ram.” So, he pulled them back and then they followed with that. And for me, that was a really big lesson of coming back. Because what makes this a spiritual practice is that no matter what, our job, so to speak, is to listen, to repeat the name, in this case we’re singing out loud, and hear it at the same time, not just so mechanically that we’re not even paying attention, which is what happens most of the time if we really look, and then when somebody else is answering the call with a response, we’re hearing it again. And the hearing is different than just listening. It’s an inner recognition. We’re hearing it from the inside, so to speak. And as time goes on, we begin to, through the repetition of the name, we begin to spend more time at home inside here.And when we go off in dreams and thoughts and fantasies and emotions and the past, the future, all that stuff, we spend less time in those states.

Just take this morning. So, I got up. I got ready to leave to come to IYI here. And I looked around and I did not see my shoulder bag. My shoulder bag had my wallet in it. And I looked all around once. I looked around 20 times, the room. I looked everywhere. It was just not there. So, the adrenaline starts to pump and the panic starts to set in. “Where is it? What am I gonna do? I don’t even have a record of all those credit cards and what should I do? And my vaccine, my two shot vaccine stamp is in there.What will I do? And I won’t be able to get on the plane to go home without my driver’s license.”

So, on a scale of one to 10 in terms of from “okay” to “complete panic,” I was at about at 12, but I wasn’t there for long. I calmed my ass down and I thought, “Okay, so where could it be?” I called Whole Foods where I had gone the night before to get some stuff. They didn’t see the bag. Okay. That was one option. But I noticed I didn’t, I wasn’t as gone as long and as deeply as I could have been. It was interesting to me at the time. So, then it turned out I had left it in the car when I went to park and that’s a whole story in itself.

So, I ran down to the parking garage and I found the bag in there, but I saw the whole arc of the situation, from the moment I noticed that the bag was gone to the moment I saw it there under the seat, and I saw that really, it wasn’t as crazy as it used to be, you know? Not from my own effort, because when you’re gone, you can’t make that effort to remember. It is very hard, which is why they always say, do practice when you can, because there will be times that you will not be able to even remember what practice is about or what remembering is about.

So that’s why we put the time in, even we don’t feel like it, because why would we pay attention to what we feel like? We’re supposed to be listening to the name, or whatever practice you do. So, for me, that was a very interesting moment. And of course it was much more fun that I didn’t lose my wallet.  Then, I don’t know how we be right now with all of you. I would be smiling and thinking, “Where’s my fucking wallet…”

Whenever we it comes over us that we’re really allowed to come home, that we really can come back to that place inside of us that is love, it is home, it’s just so powerful. Because we’re gone so much. So much of the time we’re lost in our stuff. And adding a practice to our life is what allows us, what creates the openness to return home.

The sound of the name is the name of our own true nature, the love that lives within us is who we truly are. It’s the name of that love which lives in each of us, always all the time. Life after life after life, it’s the same.

There you see Swami Shivananda, the Guru of this lineage, and behind me, unfortunately. He doesn’t want to be seen right now, Swami Satchidananda. And Maharajji loved Swami Shivananda very much. They were very close. They visited often. They knew each other very well. He came. Maharajji showed up at Shivannda Ashram in Rishikesh quite often, apparently, and it was Maharajji who, you can’t really say “forced,” but encouraged very strongly, Swami Chidhananda to accept the leadership of the Divine Life Society after Swami Shivananda left. Maharajji loved Swami Chidhananda very much.

And in fact, a funny story is that one time maybe in ‘68, Could have been ’69, I’m not sure, Swami Satchidananda was giving a retreat at Ananda Ashram in Monroe, New York. And I had heard Swami Satchidananda speak a few times in the city, so I went up for the day, and we were sitting out on the lawn, and next to Swami Satchidananda was this, another Sannyasin, another Baba. Very gaunt. And to me, he looked very fierce at the time and he was just sitting there like this, and Swami Satchidananda gave the talk and after his talks, or in the beginning, he would always go, “Hari Om,” in this beautiful voice. Right?

So, he finished the talk and I had my eyes closed, and I was waiting for the “Hari Om.” Instead of the “Hari Om,” there was this, “Sri Ram Jaya Ram Jaya Jaya Ram,”like this, and my whole body exploded. Every nerve went into overdrive, and I was just sitting there like this. I had no idea what was going on. I didn’t know who this guy was. I had heard “Sri Ram Jai Ram” before. I think I had met Ram Dass maybe once or something by now, maybe not. And then I left and I never knew who that Swami was, but that moment did something.

Okay. So, 1, 2, 3, maybe four years later, three years later, not sure. Three. I am living at the temple in Kainchi with Maharajji in India, and one day a car pulls up and a group of Swamis came out of the car like bowling balls into the temple, over the bridge, right into Maharajji’s room. And I was standing outside. I noticed this, and then all of a sudden, what did I hear?

“Sri Ram Jaya Ram Jaya Jaya Ram…”

The same Sri Ram. I went, “What is that?”

It was Swami Chidhananda, who came with some Swamis from Rishikesh. They were on tour, and apparently he knew Maharajji very well. He used to come quite often to see Him, and Maharajji would always ask him to sing and actually Swami has written about this particular day. There was some miracle about the number of oranges there that day. The swamis brought five oranges or something like that, and put them on the table in a little bowl for Maharajji near his Tucket. And there were like 20 people in the room and Maharajji started throwing the oranges to people and everybody got an orange, and Swami Chidhananda wrote about that. But the thing that got me, what I realized later, Swami had sung that “Sri Ram Jai Ram” to Maharaji before I met Swami Chidhananda that first time at Monroe. So “Sri Ram Jai Ram” was Maharajji’s joy. The name of “Ram” is what he always repeated. “Sri Ram Jai Ram” was very dear to his heart. So that connection, it was a transmission almost of also Maharajji at the time.

And here’s another little story about how much, also, Maharajji loved Swami Shivananda. At one point, one of the very, very original old Swamis with Swami Shivananda, one of his original disciples, I don’t remember, it could have been Swami Krishnananda. It might have been Swami Nirmalananda. I can’t remember which one. He was off, He went, he left Rishikesh to do pilgrimage in the Himalayas, and on his way up to the deeper Himalayas, he stopped at Kainchi, and he went to see Maharajji. He had met him before, and Maharajji looked at him and he said, “Your Guru is sporting like Krishna, but how long can this last? Go right back to Rishikesh now.”  He told him to go back to the Ashram.

And so that Swami, Nirmalalanda or Swami Krishnananda, I’m not sure, He didn’t really take it to heart. “Oh yeah. Okay. Maybe after,” but he went back down to get his supplies to go up to the high Himalayas, and when he was at that house where he left him in Haldwani, that’s when he heard that Swami Shivananda had fallen ill. So, he finally rushed back to the Ashram, and as a result, he was able to see his guru before he left the body.

But the way Mahrarajji said it: “Your guru is sporting like Krishna, playing like Krishna now, but how long can this last?”

Because they say there’s a state of consciousness that only Shiva and Krishna can be in without having to leave the body. Only those two beings can hold the intensity of that state of… whatever. Believe me, I don’t know what it is, but I’m telling you about it. So, they say anybody who enters into that state, if they stay in that state too long, the body drops. And apparently, Maharajji knew that it was time for Swami Shivananda to go, so he entered  into that state and the body finally dropped off.

These guys. This is the major leagues. This is big time stuff. We’re still in little league here.

All right, some questions.

“Can you speak about surrender? I’m a first responder and I see all that stuff. I want to stay steady.”

So, surrender. Surrender is not an act of will, of our will. Surrender comes from grace. We aspire to drop the ego, drop our identification with that. But like Ramana Maharshi says, “If you ask the mind or the ego to kill the ego or the mind, it’s like asking the thief to be the policeman. There’ll be a lot of investigation, but no arrest will ever be made.”

So, asking yourself, saying to yourself, “I’m going to surrender.” This is not going to happen. Because the “I” does not want to surrender, the “me.” It likes to act like it will, but that’s just its way of staying alive longer. So that’s why practice is so important, and practice doesn’t mean, you know, when you’re sitting cross-legged on a pillow pretending to meditate. Practice means, first of all, being present with everyone as best we can, that we meet, and bearing witness to their suffering and “the suffering,” our own and theirs, and bearing witness means to be with it without projecting your own stuff onto it. “Oh, I’m so sad. This is so terrible.”

We don’t know. We don’t know why things happen. We don’t why they don’t happen. All we know is what we feel in the moment. So, to bear witness is a big thing, and of course, Bernie Glassman, the great Zen master and my very dearest friend, used to speak of this quite often. In fact, this was his, one of his main teachings was to bear witness to the joy and the suffering. Because beings suffer. And when we bear witness, we are with them and that lessens their isolation, that lessens, takes some of the sting away of the pain. We can’t take their pain away, but we can be with them. So, the aspiration to surrender, that’s good, but don’t think that you can do it. When the mirror of the heart is clean of our greed, our shame, our selfishness, all our stuff, when the mirror of the heart is clean of that dust, then the reflection is true and accurate, and at that moment, surrender happens. We may get little hits on the way, of course, of what it might feel like to be less deluded, but surrender is the goal, and the path of devotion is the path of remembering over and over again, remembering “thy will, not mine.”

That’s hard, because when we see people suffer, especially for us, the people who are closer to us, it hurts and we want that suffering to be taken away. But if we look at that, we want them not to hurt, so we won’t hurt so much by seeing it. So, there’s a selfishness involved in that, and we can’t accept things the way they are. We want to change them so we don’t hurt. Now that’s a motive that is actually not truly useful. It’s a perversion of real compassion.

With real true compassion, Bodhi Chitta, we are not thinking about ourselves at all, but for most of us, what we call compassion is, “Oh, I wish you weren’t suffering so much so it wouldn’t be so hard for me to be with you.”

That’s selfish. So, we have to see that stuff and let go and let go and let go, and then… because yes, that’s what we have to do.

“How long does one need to chant before he can see God?”

How the hell do I know? I’ll let you know. You know? What time is it? You know? Come on, gimme a break here.

Maharajji used to say, “Go on, sing your fake lying ‘Ram Ram.’ Go on, keep doing. One of these days, the real Ram will show up and boom, that’s it. But until that time, keep faking it because you have to.”

You have to. If we truly said the name, repeated the name fully with full devotion, a hundred percent awareness and concentration and paying attention. Boom. We’d see. We’d experience what and who Ram is, but we’re lying, but we’re faking it, because we can’t do that, but through practice and training the mind,  training ourselves to keep coming back to the sound of the name and letting go of whatever we’re lost in again and again… should I go on? There’s not enough time to go on in the universe….  again and again and again, little by little we stay home for longer and we don’t go so far away, and sooner or later, the real Ram comes.

And Maharajji said, “Go on doing this practice, even when you don’t feel spiritual, even when you’re tired, even when you’re angry, even when you’re sad, even when you’re grieving…” everything.  Go on. Because if you don’t? Then what? One has to plant those seeds of remembering. If one does not plant seeds, nothing will grow.

“Do you have any advice for overcoming shame for past negative actions towards ourselves, slash, others from many years ago?”

Shame is a trip we’re doing to ourselves. Forget about whether we’ve actually hurt somebody or not. The feeling of shame, that’s different than remorse, by the way. Remorse is truly recognizing that we’ve hurt someone, wishing that we had not created that suffering and hoping that we don’t create it again, and not just hoping, but doing what’s necessary that we don’t create more suffering again for others and ourselves. But shame, that’s a different thing. Remorse is useful. Remorse of spirit, that leads to, in Christianity they talk about confession. That’s ultimately what confession is supposed to be, giving up the feelings that of shame and stuff like that and starting again. You can’t forget what you’ve done. But what you have done in the past can stop bullying you in this moment if we truly have remorse.

I was at a teaching once with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. It was a three day teaching about Bodhi Chitta, which is compassion and kindness, caring for others and one’s self. Day after day, he talked about this and the last session he took questions from the audience and questions were written on a paper and sent in, and the translator picked the question and read it.

So, one question said, “Your holiness, I hurt somebody once and I apologized and they would not accept the apology. Year after year, I’ve apologized for three years, but they won’t accept the apology. What should I do?”

So, His Holiness said, “You keep apologizing, one year, two years, three years. If after four years, they don’t accept the apology, tell them to ‘go to hell.’”

I was shocked because the Dali Lama was talking Tibetan. This was through a translator. And I thought, “His Holiness the Dalai Lama does not tell someone to go to hell because if he does, they will. And that’s not what he usually does.”

So, Bob Thurman was there, my friend, Bob, who speaks perfect Tibetan and is also very close to His Holiness. I called him over. I said, “Bob, what did he really say?”

The Dalai Lama said, “One year, two years, three years, you keep apologizing. Four years come and they don’t accept? Tell them to eat shit.”

That is what he said. Because in Tibet, they’re very spiritual country. They would not say “go to hell,” but the way they say what we say, “go to hell” is “eat shit.” But the translator, knowing what Americans think, didn’t say, “eat shit.” He said, “go to hell.”

Anyway, that’s the idea. You do what you can. If someone doesn’t want to accept the apology, what can you do? As long as you’re sincere and you understand what you’ve done, and you wish you hadn’t done it, and you’re sorry, you did it. It isn’t about whether somebody accepts that apology or not. That’s up to them. That’s their trip. They can choose to hang onto the anger or not. There’s nothing you can do about that. So, one has to be honor one’s own heart and work with one own one’s own stuff. One can’t do anything for somebody else.

“How do I deal with aging? Is it a challenge?”

No. I lost.

“Even when you’re on the path, seeing your youth and beauty fading way slowly, we are not this body. I know, but we deal with it.”

Yeah. I’m this body. I don’t know about you, and this body’s… I’m in an ashram here… I won’t use my usual words… screwed up. Shit just stops working. You wake up one morning and something that’s worked your whole life and all of a sudden it doesn’t work, and it didn’t ask you if it was okay to take the rest of your life off. it just stops working. You don’t get a vote. That’s aging.

However, this body is what we have right now. This body is what we are living in. In this body, we are doing practice. In this body, we are trying to find truth and love and God and whatever. So, we have to take care of this body as best we can. There’s no guarantees on how long this body’s going to last, but while we’re here, this is the car we’re driving in. You don’t drive a car with flat tires. You put on new tires, if possible. Yeah. You pull out your gallbladder if it’s screwing you up, and you put in the best gas in that you can, and you try to get where you’re going. All we can do is the best we can do. So, you just do your best to take care of yourself so that you can do the practice that’s going to bring youto freedom. And it just happens.

Being with Ram Dass, you know, Ram Dass and I were together for 50 years, but the last 19, 20 years after the stroke were very powerful. He had a catastrophic stroke and he was in a wheelchair. His right side was paralyzed. He was a lefty, and he had diabetes problems, neuropathy. He had so much going on. I’m not even gonna go into it, and he couldn’t do anything for himself. Everything had to be done for him. By the last years, He couldn’t even turn himself in bed because he had torn rotator cuffs from falling and he couldn’t turn himself. So, someone had to turn him. But he overcame pride. He overcame anger. He overcame all these things, and he had to accept help from others, and he really conquered pride. This is a huge thing. And it was so beautiful to watch how he accepted help from others. And they wrote a book once early on called “How Can I Help?” And he used to say, “If I wrote that book now, I would write, ‘How Can You Help Me?’”

So, he always had a sense of humor, even in the most intense situations. He went through so much pain and suffering and he never complained. Almost never. It was amazing to be around. If I stub my toe in the morning, the rest of the day is completely ruined. So, I’ve got a long way to go.

“How to let the chant enter the heart?”

First of all, let’s not pretend that we really know what the heart is. Okay? We might have some concept in our minds about what that heart is, but we don’t really know. What we do know is that through the repetition of the name, gradually but inevitably that presence within us, that heart, that essence within us is uncovered. We can’t really see it right now. Clearly. It’s always with us. It’s actually who we are. But right now, our awareness is totally involved with the sense input and the thoughts going, receiving information from what we say is the outside.

So. we are not tuned in and aware of the heart, so to speak, in a deep way. So, it’s through the repetition of the name that happens, and of course other practices, but this we’re talking about this. You simply repeat the name, and when you notice that you have not been paying attention, you come back, actually. You’re repeating the name and then you’re thinking about something. You’re dreaming about something. And then, oh, you realize that you haven’t been paying attention. How did that moment happen? You were dreaming. You were gone or you were remembering something or you were planning something, and you’re sitting with a thousand people chanting and you are chanting, but you’re not even there. How did that moment happen that you, “oh”? I don’t know. That’s grace. That is your heart pulling you back. You didn’t make that happen. You didn’t wake yourself up when you were gone, when you were dreaming, when you were thinking about the girl next to you, or you were thinking about getting home to the old lady. Or thinking about going and smoking a cigarette afterwards, or going to a movie later that day. You were not here. You were lost, dreaming that stuff.

How did it happen that you recognized that? And all of a sudden you were back. Your heart woke you up. Your true nature is awake all the time. And the more we come home to the sound of the name, the Name is the name of that place. So, we’re constantly evoking and invoking that presence and then we’re pulled away again and then, “Oh, okay.”

It wasn’t your personal will that brought you back from dreamland. It was the seeds you planted in your heart, in your Being, through the repetition of the name, that brought you back. Because when you’re asleep, even at night, when you’re asleep, you don’t wake yourself up. You set an alarm. Your heart is that alarm that’s always going off, but we don’t hear it. More and more, the more practice we do, the more we get comfortable letting go and getting at ease with what that sense of letting go means. That’s when we hear that alarm, which is actually, which is  like, “Ah.” It’s, “Hi honey. Hi, sweetie pie. Welcome back. Love you. Okay. Here, have a banana. Okay.”

“Is this my first time out of New York?”

You betcha. 53 weeks at home except one week doing the audio book. It’s a trip. I’ll tell you. I can’t wait to get back home to close the door.

“Hello. If faced with a significant decision or choice, but it does not seem clear which way to go, do you, me, have a full proof discernment process?”

Yeah, I do. I do what I want. I do what I want to do. Sometimes it’s hard to know what you want to do, because you want to do 40 different things, but Maharajji’s last instruction to me when I was, when he was sending me back to America after two and a half years in India with him, I said, “Baba, what should I do in America?”

I’d been wandering around India in a red dress, barefoot, stepping in cow poop, very happy, and now I was going back to New York. I didn’t think that was gonna fly in the city. I said, “How can I, what am I gonna do there? What am I do?”

He said, “Do what you want.”

Nobody in my life ever told me that. Certainly not the way he meant it.

“Do what you want.”

So, that put the onus on me to find out what I wanted. And I fought with terrible negative destructive stuff inside of me that wouldn’t even let me do what I really wanted to do, which was to sing to Him. I had a lot of really heavy, negative stuff that was just pushing me around for years and years, and in fact, I did not start singing to him this way until 21 years had passed after he left the body. 21 years. Am I stubborn? What do you think? Yeah, I was not a happy camper and I had to find what I wanted, because when you do something that you want to do, not because you’re told to do it. He never, he didn’t tell people what to do except “go away,” of course, you had to find your own thing, your own way. You had to find it yourself, and then it’s so much more powerful because you have listened to your heart and you’ve done what you felt you should do and want to do. If it works out, that’s good. If it doesn’t work out, there’s nobody to blame. You can’t be a victim. It’s your own stuff.

So, for me to get to the point where I could actually sit down and sing with people, it took me 21 years, but I’m very grateful that I finally managed to do it. And every day, every time I sing it brings me home. It brings me back. It puts things into perspective. It’s practice every time. It’s different every time. Just hearing the name, repeating the name, not thinking about it, not anything. “Wow, this was really good.” “Oh, this was really bad.” The Name doesn’t care. And our job is to listen and hear the sound of the Name. And in this case, sing it.

Okay. Just one more, maybe one.

“I’ve lost all interest. I’ve lost interest in all the things I used to love. All I want to do is sit, listen to satsang or walk in nature. I have to force myself to do all the worldly things. I’m scared of what this means. What does this mean and what do I do?”

Why do you think I know?

However, since you asked, you think practice is one thing that it isn’t. The practice is what gives us the strength to treat other people the way we want to be treated. You don’t have to hide yourself from the world in order to do that, and in fact, the so-called world is very happy to show you how much work you have to do in order to become a good human being. What you’re talking about is, you’re attached to what you think you should be feeling and not feeling from so-called spiritual life. You think it’s all gonna be blissful. Well, let me tell you, good luck. It isn’t.

Everything in your life is your karma. There’s nowhere you’re gonna go where this stuff is not gonna be. So, you’re making a dichotomy between what’s holy and what’s not holy, and your evaluative mind that’s screwing everything up for you.

If you were meant to be in a cave, you’d already be there. So, calm yourself down. Stop judging other people. Stop judging the so-called world. There is no world out there. There’s only what you see, and your subjectivity is creating this problem for you. Nothing else.

So, you wanna go away? Run away. It won’t work. Maybe it will. Maybe. I don’t know. It’s up to you to figure out what to do. I’m just sharing my experiences. Because I thought I would be a monk living in India for the rest of my life. Here I am, not in India and not a monk. So, we have all kinds of ideas about what we think we need to be in order to be something holy or good or something. It’s not like that. So, just calm down and listen very deeply to yourself, and then follow your heart. See where it takes you. That’s how you learn. Those 21 years I spent in inner darkness taught me a lot. Believe me. Taught me a tremendous amount. And do I regret it? Well,  if it was 20 years, that might have been better instead of 21, but it was what it was so there’s nothing to do about it now.

So, I think that’s it.

Next week, I hope I’ll be home. Take good care. Ram Ram.

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