Cider Chat

In This Episode, We Cover

• Why Sorbus domestica is often nicknamed "the chocolate pear" (and why that name actually helps people get it)
• What bletting means, and why sorbs can be delicious before they turn fully brown (depending on the fruit)
• The "custard stage" vs. fully bletted "medlar-like" stage (and how this relates to cider pressing windows)
• Ben's sorb travel finds across:
  • Croatia (including fruit for sale at the market + trees growing in yards)
  • Moravia (Czech Republic) — including the Sorbus museum and harvest festival
  • France (sorb hunting with Arnold and tasting cormé/cormé-style ferments)
  • Somerset, UK (a surprise roadside discovery!)
• Growth habits that can make Sorbus domestica look like an oak
• Why sorbs may matter in a changing climate:
  • deep root systems
  • drought resistance
  • long lifespan
  • later bloom time (less frost risk)
• Seed-grown vs grafted sorbs — and why Ben prefers genetic diversity (for now)
• The surprising reality: sorbs have already been distributed widely in the U.S. through seedlings
• What's being made with sorbs in Europe:
  • brandy
  • co-ferments with grapes
  • wine experiments

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction to Sorbus Domestica

00:18 Meet the Podcast Host: Ria Windcaller

00:52 Exploring Sorbus Domestica: History and Uses

01:25 Cider Chat Episodes Featuring Sorbus Domestica

02:39 Sorbus Domestica in France and the US

04:05 Cider News and Upcoming Events

07:53 Interview with Ben Kunesh: Chocolate Pears

08:33 The Unique Characteristics of Sorbus Domestica

17:25 Sorbus Domestica Around the World

21:03 The Versatility and Adaptability of Sorbus Domestica

24:20 The Future of Sorbus Domestica in Orchards

25:49 Sorbus Domestica: A Historical Perspective

27:34 Ben's Travels and Discoveries

34:25 Exploring Sorbus Domestica Variations

35:30 Propagation Techniques and Genetic Diversity

37:29 Historical Context and Distribution

39:50 Nursery and Distribution Efforts

41:09 European Adventures and Discoveries

45:30 Tasting Sorbus Domestica Products

54:23 Future Prospects and Cultivation Tips

01:00:58 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

🎧 Listen to Episode 487 of Cider Chat® wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss what's coming next in Ciderville.

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Recorded live at CiderCon, this episode brings listeners into a rare, in-depth conversation about Chile's living cider tradition—one shaped by more than 450 years of apple fermentation, deep regional biodiversity, and community-based agriculture.

Moderated by Eli Shanks, this panel features cider makers, cooperative leaders, and academics from southern Chile who explore how apples arrived, adapted, and endured across Araucanía, Los Ríos, and the Chiloé archipelago. Rather than a "new" cider movement, Chile offers something far rarer: a cider culture that never disappeared.

At the heart of the discussion is Chicha—the traditional name for fermented apple beverages in Chile—and the cultural weight that language carries. Panelists unpack how Chicha and cider share the same roots, why heritage orchards matter, and what's at stake as aging farmers, development pressure, and climate change threaten seed-grown apple diversity.

Listeners will also hear about:

• Heritage apple orchards over 100 years old, many grown from seed

• The role of women as primary stewards of orchards and biodiversity

• Native fermentation vessels made from Raulí and other Chilean woods

• Cooperative cider making on the island of Chiloé

• The challenges of valuing cider beyond "cheap, rural" perceptions

• The future of Chilean cider on the global stage, including education, competitions, and potential export

This episode offers an essential perspective for anyone interested in cider as culture—not trend—and in how place, people, and history shape what ends up in the glass.

Panelists & Contributors

• Eli Shanks – Co-founder, Punta de Fierro Fine Cider; Head Cider Maker, Western Cider

• Gicella – President, Cooperative Chilwe (Chiloé)

• René Galindo – Third-generation cider maker, Araucanía

• Carlos Flores – Co-founder, Punta de Fierro Fine Cider; Orchardist, Valdivia

• Fabián Lara – Cider & beer consultant; INDAP (Chilean Ministry of Agriculture)

• José Antonio Aldea – Professor and fermentation educator

Key Themes

• Chilean cider and Chicha traditions

• Heritage apple orchards and seed-grown ecotypes

• Women's roles in orchard preservation

• Cooperative models and island agriculture

• Native materials and spontaneous fermentation

• Preserving cider culture in a changing landscape

Timestamps

⏱️ Detailed timestamps are listed above to help you jump to specific topics, speakers, and cider discussions.

00:00 Introduction to Chicha and Cider

00:26 News Out and About Ciderville

00:43 Episode Overview: Chilean Cider Panel

03:30 Upcoming Events and Announcements

07:42 Introduction to the Chilean Panel

10:44 Chilean Cider Regions and History

16:11 Traditional Cider Making in Chile

18:11 Modern Chilean Cider and Future Prospects

20:16 Cider Tasting and Panel Discussion

29:32 Consumer Perception of Cider in Chile

30:07 Challenges and Efforts in Differentiation

30:34 Traditional and New World Ciders

31:13 Exciting Apple Varieties and Characteristics

32:19 Naming and Regional Varieties

35:40 Incorporating Local Fruits into Cider

38:09 Historical Context and Apple Lineages

41:47 Fire Blight and Disease Resistance

42:57 Modern vs. Traditional Cider Making

44:15 Collaborations with Winemakers

47:12 Preserving Heritage Apple Orchards

52:10 Forming a Cooperative in Chiloé

54:53 Market Development and Sales Strategies

57:03 Generational Gaps and Preservation Efforts

59:08 Future Goals and International Connections

Support Cider Chat®

If you value independent, long-form conversations that preserve cider history and amplify global voices, consider supporting Cider Chat® on Patreon. Your support helps keep these stories accessible and the podcast on the air.

Carlos Flores is an architect, landscape designer, and co-founder of Punta de Fierro Fine Cider. At the 2025 CiderCon in Chicago he presented Carlos presented "Developing An Experimental Edible Forest in a Heritage Apple Orchard." - this episode features his full presentaiton and you will also find his audio synced with all the power point slides at the Cider Chat YouTube Channel.

Find full shownotes to this episode at https://ciderchat.com/podcast/485-chile-edible-forest-cider/

00:00 Intro to Cider Chat - news

00:49 Carlos Flores and the Edible Forest

01:43 The Rich History of Chilean Cider

04:03 Upcoming Cider Events and Tours

08:41 Carlos Flores' Journey and Vision

18:40 Creating the Edible Forest

30:59 Bees and Flowers

31:08 Meteorological Station and Climate Change

32:24 Community Involvement and Workshops

33:37 Greenhouse and New Trees

34:12 Summer School and Neighbor's Orchard

36:17 Building a Cider House

37:47 Biofilter and Water Management

39:32 Community Impact and Economic Development

41:34 Pruning and Tree Management

43:14 Future Plans and Experiments

50:22 Funding and Government Grants

55:30 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Contact info for Carlos of Punta de Fierro Cider

• Website: https://puntadefierro.cl
• Listen to Episode 421: Explore the Rich History of Chilean Cider w/Punta de Fierro

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• 393: How to Wassail & Drink Hail
• Totally Cider Tours
• CiderCon2026

Support Cider Chat via our Patreon Page!

Meet Patrick McCauley, a Michigan-based cider maker and researcher, who is questioning some of the most common myths about American cider history. What Patrick uncovers is a far more regional, farm-based, and resilient cider story than the usual "cider died because of Prohibition" narrative.

00:00 Introduction to Cider and Prohibtion

00:23 Meet the Host and Guest

01:56 Listener Support and Community

04:51 Cider Salon Hungary, Uk & French Cider Tour

08:03 Featured Conversation with Patrick McCauley

10:25 Cider Production and Historical Insights

14:48 Regional Cider Production in the US

30:36 Impact of Prohibition and Industrialization

37:30 Challenges in Cider Production

38:33 Cider Culture and Consumer Perception

39:22 Historical Context and Regional Differences

42:08 Modern Cider Making Techniques

45:14 The Future of Cider

48:05 Historical Research and Discoveries

59:24 Reviving Lost Cider Traditions

01:05:58 Closing Remarks and Gratitude

Contact info for Patrick McCauley

• Listen to Patrick's Episode 302: Cider Mills of Washtenaw County (1841 to today)
• Website: https://patrickmccauley.reinhartrealtors.com/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• 2026 UK Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour
• Patron letter - Zach
• New England Cider Association - @newenglandciders
• Cider Salon Hungary

Cider Chat Patreon - join today!

Enjoy this annual winter tale from Cider Chat Central! In this special holiday episode, Cider Chat invites you to step into the enchanting world of the Talking Pommes. The Talking Pommes Grand Winter Party is more than just a story - it's a celebration of all things pome, community, tradition, and the joy that comes with every glass of cider.

The cider house hums with anticipation as Ria, Perry Pear, Mr. Quince, and the Medlars prepare the night before their annual pressing. But as every year before there is always magic in the air for Ciderville. With the Talking Pommes truly anything can happen and so it does!

With snow blanketed orchards, and just the right amount of "Believe" a sleigh pulled by apples glides through the starry sky.

Raise a glass and join us on this festive adventure—because in Ciderville, the magic is always just a sip away.

Meet the Stars of the Cider House

This holiday episode of Cider Chat brings together some of Ciderville's most delightful characters:

• Apple: The vibrant leader with a twinkle in their eye.
• The Medlars: Sweet, quirky, and always ready with a witty remark.
• Mr. Quince: The taskmaster who wants to be a comic
• Perry Pear: Full of charm and flair, a natural performer.
• A Wide Assortment of Pommes: From Dabinett to Kingston Black, they bring their unique personalities to the mix.

The Gift of Holiday Cider Magic

This story is for anyone who cherishes the magic of the season. As Apple says, "Every glass of cider holds a story, and this one's for you."

From Cider Chat to all of Ciderville, we hope this episode brings joy to your holiday season. Raise a glass, gather 'round, and join the Talking Pommes and Ria in Ciderville!

At the New York Cider Fest in November, there were 2 Cider and Cheese sessions. Cider Chat Emcee Ria Windcaller attended one featuring ciders from 4 different makers. This cider and cheese pairing was led by Rachel Freier, a cheesemonger who is based in the Finger Lakes. She brought deep knowledge, humor, and a whole lot of heart as we tasted our way through four ciders and three cheeses.

00:00 Introduction to New York City Cider Fest

01:55 Networking at the Cider Fest

02:50 Exploring the Finger Lakes Cider Scene

04:36 Upcoming Cider Tours and Events

09:32 Cider Making Tips and Anecdotes

13:46 Featured Presentation: Cider and Cheese Pairing

23:31 Sterilizing Juice and Grape Skins

23:41 Exploring Apple Varieties: Northern Spy and Crab Apples

24:06 Harvesting Feral Fruit and Gnarly Branch Rose

24:51 Pairing Cider with Cheese

25:31 The Finger Lakes Cider Scene

26:09 Cider and Goat Cheese Pairings

27:19 Kingston Black: The King of Apples

30:16 The Art of Blending Ciders

31:09 Sustainable Cheese Making

33:43 Chisel Jersey Cider and Cheese Pairing

36:19 Upcoming Cider Chat Episodes

37:20 Celebrating the Holidays with Cider

39:23 Musical Outro: Strange Apples

Contact Info for the Ciders and Rachel

• Rachel Freier, (Cheesemonger):
• Eve's Cidery - Maker Ezra
• Idiot Brother Cider - Maker Robert
• Grisamore/ Cider Works - Maker Simon
• South Hill Cider - Maker Steve

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Episode 198: Becoming a Pomologist w/ Dr. Peck
• Totally Cider Tours UK tour feature in CAMARA's Pint West
• Patron Letter - Sune
• 2026 Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour
• The Talking Pommes' Grand Winter Party Annual Special Episode

Tom Oliver is delightfully talented, mischievously witty, and not only a renowned cider maker but also a top-notch perry maker. He may say, "If you're going to make perry and work with pears, you've already identified yourself as being criminally insane," but what we found was simply a bold maker willing to go the extra mile for every bottle.

Enjoy this audio snap shot at Oliver's Cider and Perry Herefordshire, recorded on the 2025 Totally Cider Tour_UK Edition. Hear him share the story behind transforming his family's old hop barns into the heart of his cider and perry production, offering listeners a rare look into his traditional farmhouse methods. He discusses the challenges and joys of working with tannic cider apples and perry pears, spontaneous fermentation, barrel aging, and the evolving climate's impact on cider making.

Tom has been featured in many Cider Chat® episodes and will be one of the select scheduled stops on the 2026 UK Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour.

00:00 Introduction to Perry and Cider Making

00:17 Meet the Host and Guest

00:57 Totally Cider Tour Experience

03:28 Challenges of Perry Making

04:11 Foraging and Traditional Perry Making

05:09 The Importance of Known Varieties

06:28 Cider Preferences and Quality

07:43 Totally Cider Tours - UK

10:18 Tom Oliver's Cidery Tour

11:47 Barrel Room Insights

13:08 Perry and Cider Fermentation

14:35 Pressing and Storing Fruit

15:51 Unique Perry Varieties

21:48 Barrel Aging and Tasting

25:03 Introduction to Fermentation

25:49 Wild Fermentation Process

27:11 Saccharomyces Yeast Role

28:34 Fermentation Containers and Aging

29:26 Bottling and Release Plans

29:44 Fermentation Under Pressure

32:28 Temperature and Duration of Fermentation

33:43 Challenges with Temperature Control

36:31 Barrel Cleaning and Maintenance

38:27 Regulations and Environmental Concerns

40:54 Conclusion and Future Plans

Topics Covered

• The transformation of Oliver's hop barns into barrel rooms
• The shift from hops (Fuggles, Northdown, Target) to cider and perry fruit
• Why perry making is "a walk through madness" compared to cider
• The discipline of pressing and storing tannic pears at their peak
• Wild fermentation: apiculate vs. Saccharomyces yeast and how they shape flavor
• Barrel aging as both art and alchemy
• The sensory nuance of minerality and mouthfeel
• Keeping barrels "organically clean" for wild ferments
• Rising temperatures and the modern challenges of traditional cider making

Perry Pear Varieties Mentioned

• Butt – dense and slow to soften; can store for weeks
• Thorn – softens quickly, needs immediate pressing
• Judge Amphlett – early ripening, fast fermenting
• Winnall's Longdon – honeyed, complex, but fragile and quick to spoil
• Yellow Huffcap – rich tannins, aromatic, often over-ripens on the tree

Ciders & Perrys Tasted

• Eskimo Eyes Perry – 6% ABV, aged six months in rum and white wine barrels. A still perry that balances delicate fruit, subtle oak, and lingering depth.
• Barrel-Aged Still Cider – 9.2% ABV, matured 18+ months in Irish whiskey and Scotch barrels, bringing notes of minerality, oak, and sherry-like warmth.

Call to Action

If you've ever wondered whether you're bold enough to make perry, this episode will either inspire — or warn — you. Join Tom Oliver and other makers on the upcoming 2026 Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour, and hear more stories from the barrel rooms of cider's most daring artists at CiderChat.com. Send an email today to mailto:[email protected]

Contact info for Oliver's Cider & Perry (Tom Oliver)

• Website: https://oliversciderandperry.co.uk/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour 2026 – get on the wait list today! send an email to [email protected] and let us know how many slots you would like to have us keep open for you!

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:32 French Pronunciation Fun

02:27 Holiday Gift Ideas for 2025

02:59 Cider Chat News and Updates

04:42 Listener Stories and Experiences

07:49 Upcoming UK Cider Tour 2026

12:47 Featured Presentation: 2025 Holiday Cider Gift Guide

13:35 Cider Chat Partners and Supporters

25:30 Stocking Stuffer Tips and Cider Supplies

31:36 The Perfect Name for American Pommeau

45:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

00:00 Introduction and Language Fun

00:14 Cider Chat Episode 480 Overview

01:10 Naming Poot in America

02:27 Holiday Gift Ideas for 2025

02:59 Cider Chat News and Updates

03:08 New Patron and Michelin Star Connection

04:42 Michael of Edulis Cider Journey

06:25 Rising Costs of Starting a Cidery

07:49 Blossom Time Tour 2026

12:47 Holiday Cider Gift Guide

13:35 Cider Chat Partners and Supporters

25:30 Stocking Stuffers and Cider Supplies

31:36 The Perfect Name for American Pommeau

41:32 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Find full episode show notes and links at https:ciderchat.com

New York Cider Fest 2025 brought together makers and enthusiasts for an unforgettable day at City Winery Manhattan. In this special collection of on-the-floor recordings, Cider Chat® captures Audio Snap Shots with festival patrons.

Hear how attendees at the New York Cider Fest are viewing cider today — what styles they're excited about, how they're drinking it, and the foods they love to pair with a glass, including their favorite Thanksgiving matches.

Episode Timeline

00:00 Introduction to Cider Chat

02:34 Exciting News: Totally Cider Tours

10:21 Feature Presentation: New York Cider Fest

12:24 Listener Snapshots: Cider Enthusiasts Share Their Stories

18:45 Exploring Cider Pairings and Preferences

19:22 Cider Travels and Discoveries

25:17 Food Influencers at Cider Fest

28:05 Meet the Food Bloggers

28:35 Kylie and JJ's Cider Journey

32:30 Katie's Fruity Cider Favorites

39:09 AJ's Tequila and Cider Combo

42:22 Adventurous Ashley's Cider Travels

45:48 Cider's Growing Popularity

47:56 Join the UK Cider Tour

49:20 Cider Song Finale

Contact info for the New York Cider Fest

• The New York Cider Association hosts this annual event – go to their website at https://www.newyorkciderassociation.com/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• 2026 Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour April 27th – May3rd
• Guest Instagram accounts on this episode
  • @roommatesfeasting
  • @fontanas_food
  • @adventuressashley

What is Pommeau?

Pommeau is a: fortified blend of fresh apple must (unfermented) and apple brandy (typically Calvados in Normandy or Lambig in Brittany). The unfermented apple juice and brandy are combined before fermentation, which halts the process entirely and preserves natural sweetness.

By law in France, Pommeau must be aged a minimum of 18 months in oak and produced within designated regions. It's rich, amber-colored, and served as an apéritif. It is consider to be a French heritage drink shaped by decades of refinement and protected standards.

When did Pommeau receive AOC status?

Pommeau received its official Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée (AOC) status in 1991, formalizing the traditional method and legally protecting what can and cannot be called Pommeau within France.

And in America?

If you ask what Pommeau is in the United States, the answer is: nothing defined. There is no legal TTB definition, no standard of identity, and no trade agreement protecting the name. Yet hundreds of U.S. labels already use the word…sometimes accurately, sometimes loosely, often inconsistently.

So the question becomes, "What happens when a French classic with strict rules lands on U.S. labels with no rules at all?" That's the conversation American isn't having… yet.

In this episode, Ria speaks with alcohol beverage attorney Lindsey Zahn to unpack what it means to use the word Pommeau in the U.S.—legally, culturally, ethically—and what cider makers and consumers should consider going forward.

What happens when a French classic with strict rules lands on U.S. labels with no rules at all? That's the conversation America isn't having… yet.

In this episode, Ria speaks with alcohol beverage attorney Lindsey Zahn to unpack what it means to use the word Pommeau in the U.S.—legally, culturally, ethically—and what cider makers and consumers should consider going forward.

Key Topics Covered

• What Pommeau legally means in France
• Why the TTB has no definition for Pommeau
• How hundreds of U.S. labels were approved without consistency
• The difference between fortified cider vs. Pommeau
• Why a COLA approval does not protect you from trademark or trade disputes
• U.S.–EU trade agreements and why Pommeau is not protected
• Risks for current makers using "Pommeau" on labels
• Why "American Pommeau," "Pommeau-style," or accurate class/type statements may reduce risk
• The opportunity for U.S. cider associations to create a new American term
• A call for a naming contest—what the U.S. cider world could build together
• Why truth in labeling matters beyond regulatory compliance
• Why this conversation needed to happen…ten years ago

Contact info for Lindsey Zahn P.C.

• Website: https://www.zahnlawpc.com
• Previous Cider Chat episode with Lindsey : Episode 85 Lindsey Zahn on Cider Law
• TTB Labeling Resources: https://www.ttb.gov

00:00 Introduction and Common Misconceptions

00:23 Meet the Host and Guest

01:35 Episode Overview: Focus on Pommeau

03:13 Cider Tours Announcement

06:58 Listener Support and Sponsors

08:40 Main Discussion: Legal Aspects of Pommeau

25:34 Trademark Rights and Labeling Concerns

27:34 The Importance of Due Diligence in Labeling

28:46 Pomo: A Gray Area in Cider Labeling

30:30 Alternatives to Using 'Pomo'

32:36 Truth in Labeling and Production Methods

36:08 Advice for Cider Producers

38:39 Role of Cider Associations

46:08 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Totally Cider Tours