Kelly sits down with visionary neuroscientist Gül Dölen—who FedExed seven octopuses to her lab and dosed them with MDMA to understand how brains learn—and to explore what happens when you let wonder lead the way. Gül explains that our brains have windows when they're wide open to learning, that those windows known as "critical periods" close—and more importantly, how we might crack them back open. She and Kelly discuss why pure curiosity, the kind with no practical application in sight, has always been the source of our most important discoveries, and why deprivation and mystical joy might be two paths to the same place. Gül makes the case that there's magic everywhere if you're willing to see the physical world as miraculous, and that lasting change comes not from a pill but from what you learn while your mind is open. Note: This episode discusses neuroscience research on psychedelics, including MDMA. All references are to controlled scientific studies, not recreational use.

This episode was made possible by a grant from the John Templeton Foundation. To learn more, please visit ⁠www.templeton.org⁠.

Recorded at the Aspen Ideas Festival.

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