Deep Transformation

Ep. 155 (Part 1 of 3) | Integral polymath Sean Esbjörn-Hargens is the first comparative scholar to undertake differentiating the myriad varieties of nonduality. A longtime spiritual practitioner within several nondual traditions, Sean wanted to find out how we can understand the relationship between reality, consciousness, and practice. He decided to delve into a comprehensive study of nonduality and was surprised and excited by what he found: 40 distinct nondual traditions, ancient and new, from East and West, fascinating in their differences, their similarities, their uniqueness, and their depth. Sean’s hope is that his comparative analysis of nondual traditions will open the door to a global, cross-tradition dialogue that will supersede centuries of misunderstanding and conflict among people arguing that their realization is the best and/or only correct interpretation of reality and allow nondual traditions to enrich and empower one another.

Enthusiasm and excitement flow throughout the conversation as Sean reveals provocative patterns he has uncovered in nonduality's history and the distinctions he has mapped so far. It becomes clear that nondual realizations evolve in a way similar to developmental models in terms of subject/object relationship, psychology of self, and taking new perspectives, and that they will continue to evolve. As Sean puts it, “the ontological floor keeps dropping out as the endpoint of spiritual realization.” “What will our nondual traditions look like in a thousand years? In two thousand years!” Sean wonders. Hang on to your hats for a thoroughly enjoyable and eye opening ride through a goldmine of information about the many faces and potentials of our nondual traditions. Recorded September 12, 2024.

“How do we understand the relationship between consciousness, reality, and practice?”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, author, Dean of Integral Education & Integral Noetic Sciences Program Director at CIHS, founder of MetaIntegral (00:59)
• How was Sean drawn to exploring the topic of nonduality? (05:03)
• There are over 40 distinct nondual traditions on the planet (07:31)
• When you say nonduality, what do you mean? (11:02)
• Advaita Vedanta’s “not two”; there’s only Self, only divine awareness (11:43)
• 3 major nondual ultimacies: nondual oneness, nondual tantra, nondual union (12:49)
• In nondual traditions, does divinizing the self lead to the same experience as annihilating the self? (17:43)
• The I-sphere of nonduality, the we-sphere of nonduality, and the it-sphere of nonduality (19:51)
• Ken Wilber’s notion of emptiness + view: emptiness doesn’t change but view does, so nonduality evolves (22:00)
• Varieties of nonduality emphasize different qualities: emptiness + omnipresence, emptiness + bliss, emptiness + luminosity, emptiness + embodiment (23:33)
• Nonduality is developmental in terms of states: each realization is a deeper, wider experience of nonduality (25:45)
• Realization is just going to keep going; there is a way in which all views are equal and a way in which some views are better than others (29:41)

• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Dean of Integral Education & Integral Noetic Sciences Program Director, California Institute of Human Sciences (CIHS), founder of MetaIntegral, a global transdisciplinary social impact organization
• Sean’s course coming up in January 2025: Varieties of Nonduality: A 10-Week Course in a Metaintegral Analysis of 10 Contemplative Traditions
• Sean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael Zimmerman, Integral Ecology: Uniting Multiple Perspectives on the Natural World*
• Roy Bhaskar, Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Nicholas Hedlund, Mervyn Hartwig, Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue*
• A. H. Almaas’ Diamond Approach, see also Deep Transformation podcast’s A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series (also available on YouTube)
• David Loy, Nonduality: A Study in Comparative Philosophy*, Nonduality in Buddhism and Beyond*, see also Deep Transformation podcast Growing from Bodhisattva to Ecosattva with David Loy
• Advaita Vedanta
• Kashmir Shaivism
• Meister Eckhart, German Catholic priest, theologian, philosopher & mystic
• Ken Wilber, No Boundary: Eastern and Western Approaches to Personal Growth*
• Shingon Buddhism
• Tiantai Buddhism
• A. H. Almaas, Runaway Realization: Living a Life of Ceaseless Discovery*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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by Sean Esbjörn-Hargens

A 10-Week Course in a Metaintegral Analysis of 10 Contemplative Traditions

Beginning January 2025

* Sean Hargens has kindly offered a $100 discount to Deep Transformation podcast listeners who sign up for his course! To take advantage of Sean’s offer, simply email him at [email protected], with the following coupon code in the subject line: NONDUALITY2024DT, and request one hundred dollars off the January to March Varieties of Nonduality course. Sean will then send you a PayPal invoice with the reduced rate of $395.

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Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Ph.D. has spent his life developing “metaintegral” approaches to the fields of ecology, mixed-methods research, psychology and consciousness studies, philosophy of science, holistic education, and post-capital models of measuring social impact. He has been a long time serious meditator and practitioner within several nondual traditions: Tibetan Buddhism, The Russian Orthodox Church (Christianity), A. H. Almaas’ The Diamond Approach, The Ceile De Celtic tradition, and the Hermetic tradition. He is the Founder and Program Director of the MA/PhD program Integral Noetic Sciences at the California Institute for Human Sciences in Encinitas, CA.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 154 (Part 2 of 2) | In this 4th dialogue of the A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series, spiritual teacher Hameed Ali explains that much of the beginning of the spiritual path is spent clarifying our individual consciousness from the conditioning of the past in order to wake up and discover our true nature. In the Diamond Approach, this is accomplished using the practice of inquiry, and as we inquire deeply within, qualities intrinsic to consciousness emerge in our awareness. These qualities—like truth, courage, steadfastness, curiosity, and love—each have their own particular sensory expression: a certain color, texture, warmth or coolness, varying degrees of sweetness. The more these qualities emerge, Hameed says, the more powerful our practice and the more authentic our life. He calls these qualities treasures of the soul. 

This beautiful conversation ranges from profoundly moving, as Hameed evokes specific qualities of presence, to humorous, when he tells a funny story about Maharishi Yogi, to intensely illuminating as Hameed talks about the teaching of the first turning, the miracle of ordinary life, what it means to be spiritually mature, the nature of true sorrow, the fact that we are the universe being conscious, and how fundamental nature lies deeper than consciousness, deeper than awareness. It is a multifaceted gem, not to be missed. Recorded September 19, 2024.

“The soul is the organ of knowledge of the universe.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• We have to take the dualistic world into account (00:59)
• Mature spirituality: just live your life; you have to start with ordinary life (02:31)
• The second (nondual), third & fourth turnings recognize there are other ways that reality appears (05:43)
• You can be pure consciousness living in a world of matter: in some sense, this is more miraculous than that everything is consciousness (07:01)
• Courage’s presence is like red lava, fiery and ruby red (09:39)
• Truth is also a quality: when I experience myself as truth, I feel myself as made out of pure gold, the gold of consciousness (10:24)
• Roger is deeply touched when Hameed evokes the sensory characteristics of the essential qualities; Hameed agrees it is very moving (13:43)
• To what extent are these sensory experiences specific to Hameed? Or are they universal? (15:02)
• Sincerity is a quality of presence (17:55)
• What do all these inherent qualities tell us about the nature of reality? (19:09)
• Fundamental nature is deeper than consciousness, deeper than awareness: I am is completely indeterminate (20:43)
• The nature of rational thought, discriminating awareness (24:22)
• Can we integrate ordinary knowledge with true knowing? (27:15)
• It’s important for people to know that consciousness can appear as a particular quality (29:13)
• These qualities are the treasures of the soul and the journey of learning about them is a beautiful adventure of discovery (31:41)
• The word brings out the quality and the quality brings out the word (35:21)

• A. H. Almaas (Hameed Ali), founder of The Ridhwan School, home of The Diamond Approach
• A. H. Almaas, The Inner Journey Home: Soul’s Realization of the Unity of Reality*
• Kashmir Shaivism
• The Platonic Forms of the Socratic Dialogues
• Ramana Maharshi, Who Am I? The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi*
• Parmenides, the first philosopher to inquire into the nature of existence itself
• Sufi mystic Ibn Arabi, “God needs a soul just as much as a soul needs God”
• Maharishi Yogi, creator of Transcendental Meditation
• Tibetan Buddhist masters Chögyam Trungpa & Dilgo Khyentse

The A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series will generally follow the sequence of Hameed’s magnum opus, The Inner Journey Home* (which John describes as psychoactive and spiritually, psychologically, and intellectually transformative), so listeners may want to get a copy of this book, to study and follow along on this exhilarating path of awakening.

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Hameed Ali (A. H. Almaas) was born in Kuwait in 1944. At the age of eighteen, he moved to the U.S. to study at the University of California in Berkeley. Hameed was working on his Ph.D. in physics when he reached a turning point in his life and destiny that led him to inquire into the psychological and spiritual aspects of human nature rather than the physical nature of the universe. He left the academic world to pursue an in-depth journey of inner discovery, applying his scientific precision and discipline to personal, experiential research. This included study with different teachers in different modalities, extensive reading, and continuous study of his own consciousness in an effort to understand the essential nature of human experience and reality in general.

Hameed’s process of exploration led to the creation of the Ridhwan School and, with his colleague Karen Johnson, resulted in the founding and unfoldment of the Diamond Approach. He is the author of 20 books, including Nondual Love: Awakening to the Loving Nature of Reality, Love Unveiled: Discovering the Essence of the Awakened Heart, Keys to the Enneagram: How to Unlock the Highest Potential of Every Personality Type, The Unfolding Now: Realizing Your True Nature through the Practice of Presence, and more.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 153 (Part 1 of 2) | In this 4th dialogue of the A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series, spiritual teacher Hameed Ali explains that much of the beginning of the spiritual path is spent clarifying our individual consciousness from the conditioning of the past in order to wake up and discover our true nature. In the Diamond Approach, this is accomplished using the practice of inquiry, and as we inquire deeply within, qualities intrinsic to consciousness emerge in our awareness. These qualities—like truth, courage, steadfastness, curiosity, and love—each have their own particular sensory expression: a certain color, texture, warmth or coolness, varying degrees of sweetness. The more these qualities emerge, Hameed says, the more powerful our practice and the more authentic our life. He calls these qualities treasures of the soul. 

This beautiful conversation ranges from profoundly moving, as Hameed evokes specific qualities of presence, to humorous, when he tells a funny story about Maharishi Yogi, to intensely illuminating as Hameed talks about the teaching of the first turning, the miracle of ordinary life, what it means to be spiritually mature, the nature of true sorrow, the fact that we are the universe being conscious, and how fundamental nature lies deeper than consciousness, deeper than awareness. It is a multifaceted gem, not to be missed. Recorded September 19, 2024.

“Courage, steadfastness, curiosity, and love are all expressions of our pure consciousness appearing as specific qualities.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing the 4th dialogue in the A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series, focusing on the soul as “organism of consciousness” (00:59)
• The distinction between universal consciousness and individual consciousness (03:04)
• Much of the beginning of the path is spent clarifying individual consciousness from the conditioning of the past (05:50)
• The practice of inquiry is for the individual consciousness to wake up and discover what it is fundamentally (07:25)
• Courage, steadfastness, curiosity, and love are all expressions of pure consciousness appearing as specific qualities (11:04)
• Why we need these essential qualities: the more these qualities emerge, the more powerful the practice (13:21)
• How can you live your life authentically, without the qualities of integrity, courage, intelligence, clarity, inner peacefulness, and true sorrow? (16:02)
• True sorrow is a quality of presence—sorrow for the suffering, for what’s happening in the world (16:57)
• These qualities are the closest thing to the Platonic forms, necessary for the spiritual path and necessary for living (19:47)
• The incomparable or precious pearl at our center and the difference between personal essence and the individual soul (20:58)
• Psychological individuation is a forerunner for true individuation (23:33)
• Free of conditioning, we wake up to what we really are (24:59)
• The essential qualities are implicit in pure consciousness but they become differentiated in the soul (27:24)
• The teaching of the first turning is that the ordinary world is one way reality manifests—it’s not the product of our ignorance; it has its own spirituality (28:37)
• Ordinary life is miraculous! (34:36)
• As Parmenides said, order is the basis of reason (36:36)
• The universe becomes conscious through the beings who awaken: we are the universe being conscious (37:48)
• The inner world has more in it than the outer universe (41:52)
• The story of Maharishi Yogi and the bank accounts (43:46)

• A. H. Almaas (Hameed Ali), founder of The Ridhwan School, home of The Diamond Approach
• A. H. Almaas, The Inner Journey Home: Soul’s Realization of the Unity of Reality*
• Kashmir Shaivism
• The Platonic Forms of the Socratic Dialogues
• Ramana Maharshi, Who Am I? The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi*
• Parmenides, the first philosopher to inquire into the nature of existence itself
• Sufi mystic Ibn Arabi, “God needs a soul just as much as a soul needs God”
• Maharishi Yogi, creator of Transcendental Meditation

The A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series will generally follow the sequence of Hameed’s magnum opus, The Inner Journey Home* (which John describes as psychoactive and spiritually, psychologically, and intellectually transformative), so listeners may want to get a copy of this book, to study and follow along on this exhilarating path of awakening.

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Hameed Ali (A. H. Almaas) was born in Kuwait in 1944. At the age of eighteen, he moved to the U.S. to study at the University of California in Berkeley. Hameed was working on his Ph.D. in physics when he reached a turning point in his life and destiny that led him to inquire into the psychological and spiritual aspects of human nature rather than the physical nature of the universe. He left the academic world to pursue an in-depth journey of inner discovery, applying his scientific precision and discipline to personal, experiential research. This included study with different teachers in different modalities, extensive reading, and continuous study of his own consciousness in an effort to understand the essential nature of human experience and reality in general.

Hameed’s process of exploration led to the creation of the Ridhwan School and, with his colleague Karen Johnson, resulted in the founding and unfoldment of the Diamond Approach. He is the author of 20 books, including Nondual Love: Awakening to the Loving Nature of Reality, Love Unveiled: Discovering the Essence of the Awakened Heart, Keys to the Enneagram: How to Unlock the Highest Potential of Every Personality Type, The Unfolding Now: Realizing Your True Nature through the Practice of Presence, and more.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 152 (Part 2 of 2) | Life coach, recovery coach, and plant medicine ceremonialist Ron Interpreter has created a multidimensional, whole person healing modality that integrates Navajo spiritual teachings and traditions with Ken Wilber’s Integral Model and Integral spirituality. Humanity is shifting, Ron explains, and is now looking to the teachings of the ancestors and Indigenous practices that can bring a sense of authenticity, purpose, and meaning to our lives. Native spirituality teaches us how we can relate to the elements of earth, fire, water and air in terms of remedies and medicines, and also in terms of beliefs and emotional connections. Plant medicine and other mind-altering ceremonies provide us with the means to get beyond the psychological limitations we put on ourselves, attain higher states of consciousness, and receive answers to our deepest questions.

With a calm, articulate fervency, Ron shares the ancestral wisdom he teaches to people in recovery or who are suffering from trauma, including special ops forces and veterans: the Native concepts of taking responsibility, being accountable, forging a relationship with God or Spirit, and living from a profound understanding of what it means to be a human being. “We are in the creation of self—how do we practice our selves?” Ron asks. The Indigenous teachings that Ron brings forward provide a deep sense of grounding in Nature and Spirit, as we come to a better understanding of our place in the universe and the practices that can open us up to living in a sacred way, in connection with divine being. Recorded August 1, 2024.

“We have to see ourselves as human beings first.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Stopping the blame game—blaming colonialism—and healing intergenerational trauma (01:28)
• How do we practice our selves? Get back to our ancestral ways, see ourselves as human beings first (05:06)
• The future of recovery depends on the expansion of the practitioner’s approach and getting back to the elementals (11:00)
• What are the most valuable Native practices for healing and recovery? (18:10)
• Psychedelic medicines are tools to get beyond the psychological limitations we put on ourselves (23:52)
• Ceremony is vitally important to give context and reverence to a plant medicine experience (25:04)
• Building character in young people (26:11)
• In order for you to receive the medicine, you need to have a spiritual practice (28:29)
• At Ron’s church, a long period of practicing breathwork and other modalities will often precede the use of psychedelic tools (32:15)
• Facilitating plant medicine ceremonies for special ops forces and veterans (34:55)
• Native traditions are now accessible to help people understand what it means to be human (40:02)
• The future of addiction, especially with addictive potentials increasing exponentially (42:49) 
• We have to stop looking at addiction as your experience, my experience (48:49)

• Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
• Masaru Emoto, The Hidden Messages in Water*
• Hanzi Freinacht, The Listening Society*, Nordic Ideology*
• Bildung, linking philosophy and education for both personal and cultural maturation
• iAwake Technologies, transformative sound technologies for an evolving world, co-founded by John Dupuy
• The Coming Home Project, founded in 2021 by Navy SEAL veteran Nate Brown
• The Mission After, founded by Mike Bledsoe, empowering veterans to thrive in civilian life
• Ron Interpreter’s consulting company, Interpretive Solutions LLC, specializes in business management solutions 
• Ron Interpreter, co-founder of the church Sanctuary of Consciousness
• Wesly Feuquay’s Psylogia Institute of Consciousness Evolution
• John Dupuy, Integral Recovery: A Revolutionary Approach to the Treatment of Alcoholism and Addiction*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Ron Interpreter is a member of the Navajo Nation, with indigenous relations to the Apache and Yaqui Nations. As an Integral Certified Life Coach, Yoga YTT 200 HR Instructor, and Plant-Medicine Ceremonialist, Ron is motivated by an individual’s commitment of deepening their personal health and spiritual wellbeing. Ron facilitates a healing modality he calls “Beeh Ji Zhoni – Beauty Within,” an integrative practice incorporating Integral Theory and Navajo Principles of wellness to create a divine state of being; in which One’s alignment of consciousness and spirituality is attained by setting positive intentions, practicing self love, and initiating self discipline to create an abundant and healthy lifestyle. 

In his professional endeavors, Ron has expanded the Integral Theory framework into his Substance Abuse and Addiction Recovery practices by utilizing the Integral Recovery Model to help individuals overcome substance abuse disease. Furthermore, as a co-founder of the church Sanctuary of Consciousness, whose ministry is to elevate consciousness throughout the planet, Ron integrates the Integral Spirituality Model—an approach to cultivating higher states of consciousness in the development of psychodynamic psychology, stimulating enlightenment experiences to cultivate sound life practices to heal the mind/body/soul connection. More about Ron here: The Psylogia Institute and Sanctuary Of Consciousness.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 151 (Part 1 of 2) | Life coach, recovery coach, and plant medicine ceremonialist Ron Interpreter has created a multidimensional, whole person healing modality that integrates Navajo spiritual teachings and traditions with Ken Wilber’s Integral Model and Integral spirituality. Humanity is shifting, Ron explains, and is now looking to the teachings of the ancestors and Indigenous practices that can bring a sense of authenticity, purpose, and meaning to our lives. Native spirituality teaches us how we can relate to the elements of earth, fire, water and air in terms of remedies and medicines, and also in terms of beliefs and emotional connections. Plant medicine and other mind-altering ceremonies provide us with the means to get beyond the psychological limitations we put on ourselves, attain higher states of consciousness, and receive answers to our deepest questions.

With a calm, articulate fervency, Ron shares the ancestral wisdom he teaches to people in recovery or who are suffering from trauma, including special ops forces and veterans: the Native concepts of taking responsibility, being accountable, forging a relationship with God or Spirit, and living from a profound understanding of what it means to be a human being. “We are in the creation of self—how do we practice ourselves?” Ron asks. The Indigenous teachings that Ron brings forward provide a deep sense of grounding in Nature and Spirit, as we come to a better understanding of our place in the universe and the practices that can open us up to living in a sacred way, in connection with divine being. Recorded August 1, 2024.

“What life am I practicing? Am I understanding who I am?”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing business consultant, integral life coach, recovery coach, and co-founder of the Sanctuary of Consciousness, Ron Interpreter of the Navajo tribe (00:59)
• How Ron came to work in recovery as well as teach wellness, yoga & personal development (02:59)
• Growing up on the Navajo Nation learning about our spiritual relationship with the universe, how to cultivate meaning & purpose, and using peyote medicine as a sacrament (08:11)
• On to architecture, consulting, wellness, and life coaching (10:01)
• Enter Integral Theory, which covered all the fundamental bases of Native traditions and philosophies (11:46)
• From integral coaching to recovery coaching, discovering John’s book Integral Recovery & Ken Wilber’s Integral Spirituality (13:38)
• In the ancestral teachings of the Navajo Way, the peyote way, and the Presbyterian Church, the voice of God is all the same (18:21)
• How humanity is starting to look to Indigenous people to understand relating to elementals, cultivating community & authenticity, and finding the meaning of life in psychedelic experiences (20:10)
• John’s experience of Native American spirituality, the mystical spirituality of AA, awakening to Integral, and writing Integral Recovery (23:08)
• Everything in life is really up to you (28:23)
• Ancestral 4-quadrant teachings: the mystical & spiritual; the human experience; what are the practices; where is community in this? (29:31)
• Integral medicine—the whole person approach (31:22)
• Integral’s process: wake up, grow up, clean up, show up (33:28)
• Spirituality is a practice of self (37:20)
• Cultivating skills to become self-sustainable and free of medications (39:11)
• Taking responsibility, growing beyond victimhood (41:10)
• The technique of reframing (49:38) 

• Ron Interpreter’s consulting company, Interpretive Solutions LLC, specializes in business management solutions 
• Ron Interpreter, co-founder of the church Sanctuary of Consciousness
• The Wim Hof Method
• The Aubrey Marcus podcast, Biohacks for a Better Human Experience with Dr. De (podcast)
• Wesly Feuquay’s Psylogia Institute of Consciousness Evolution
• Rapid Rewire Method
• John Dupuy, Integral Recovery: A Revolutionary Approach to the Treatment of Alcoholism and Addiction*
• Ken Wilber, Integral Spirituality: A Startling New Role for Religion in the Modern and Postmodern World*
• Wallace Black Elk, Native American shamanic teacher, Black Elk: The Sacred Ways of a Lakota*
• SAMSHA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration)

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Ron Interpreter is a member of the Navajo Nation, with indigenous relations to the Apache and Yaqui Nations. As an Integral Certified Life Coach, Yoga YTT 200 HR Instructor, and Plant-Medicine Ceremonialist, Ron is motivated by an individual’s commitment of deepening their personal health and spiritual wellbeing. Ron facilitates a healing modality he calls “Beeh Ji Zhoni – Beauty Within,” an integrative practice incorporating Integral Theory and Navajo Principles of wellness to create a divine state of being; in which One’s alignment of consciousness and spirituality is attained by setting positive intentions, practicing self love, and initiating self discipline to create an abundant and healthy lifestyle. 

In his professional endeavors, Ron has expanded the Integral Theory framework into his Substance Abuse and Addiction Recovery practices by utilizing the Integral Recovery Model to help individuals overcome substance abuse disease. Furthermore, as a co-founder of the church Sanctuary of Consciousness, whose ministry is to elevate consciousness throughout the planet, Ron integrates the Integral Spirituality Model—an approach to cultivating higher states of consciousness in the development of psychodynamic psychology, stimulating enlightenment experiences to cultivate sound life practices to heal the mind/body/soul connection. More about Ron here: The Psylogia Institute and Sanctuary Of Consciousness.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 150 (Part 2 of 2) | In the third dialogue of the A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series, Hameed Ali brings us to a deeper understanding of individual consciousness, our true nature, in relation to pure consciousness. Once we come to know what consciousness is, he says, our spiritual experience truly begins. The conversation flows through many illuminating teachings: how true nature manifests itself in many ways—there is no one way, no final way; reality is only what we perceive it to be—there is no hard and fast reality “out there;” and the ego is not some sort of developmental mistake—it only becomes a problem if we become fixated on it. Psychology helps us see how the soul became the ego, Hameed explains, and psychodynamics reflect how our individual consciousness becomes imprinted by experience, the effects of which can be unraveled through spiritual inquiry. 

When asked how he is able to write so remarkably clearly and concisely, fine-cut like a diamond, Hameed explains that the teachings articulate themselves as he writes by becoming his direct experience in the moment. He is not channeling, nor is his individual self expressing an opinion, the teaching simply expresses itself by becoming his true nature. This conversation is inspiring on many levels as consciousness becomes more graspable and because, as Roger says, Hameed’s teaching is grounded in our being capable of realizing being. At the end, Hameed gives a beautifully resonant account of why we love freedom. Once again, Hameed’s profound teachings come as a transmission and are a joy to receive. Recorded August 8, 2024.

“Depth psychology helps us understand how our soul became our ego.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• How Hameed came to think that soul is the best word to describe a human being (00:45) 
• The soul is pure consciousness with an aliveness added to it; the soul is always learning (04:26)
• Knowing what consciousness is is the true opening to spirituality (05:52)
• Development of the ego is necessary for physical survival, it is not a mistake unless we become fixated upon it (07:32)
• Arrested development: bottled up consciousness experiences pressure, a sense of pain & suffering (11:49)
• The ancient concept of soul was replaced by the idea of a separate self (13:14)
• Unity, disunity, and beyond (14:37)
• Psychology helps us understand how our soul became our ego (15:41)
• Psychodynamics show us how early experience impacts current experience, and it is inquiry that helps us unravel the ego (18:26)
• Our consciousness is a living organism (22:25)
• Grasping the nature of our soul is not easy, because it’s holographic, dynamic—you can’t give it a form (24:46)
• There is a nondual unity—united in the medium of consciousness—but it is also holographic: each point contains all other points (27:29)
• The difference between the holographic Huayan Buddhist perspective and the Zen perspective, where individual uniqueness becomes important (30:11)
• Do different teachings lead to different experiences of freedom? (33:38)
• Freedom is a sacred right of each individual (36:21)

• A. H. Almaas (Hameed Ali), founder of The Ridhwan School, home of The Diamond Approach
• A. H. Almaas, The Inner Journey Home: Soul’s Realization of the Unity of Reality*
• William Blake, Auguries of Innocence, “To see a World in a grain of sand…”
• Huayan Buddhism

The A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series will generally follow the sequence of Hameed’s magnum opus, The Inner Journey Home* (which John describes as psychoactive and spiritually, psychologically, and intellectually transformative), so listeners may want to get a copy of this book, to study and follow along on this exhilarating path of awakening.

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

---

A. Hameed Ali (A. H. Almaas) was born in Kuwait in 1944. At the age of eighteen, he moved to the U.S. to study at the University of California in Berkeley. Hameed was working on his Ph.D. in physics when he reached a turning point in his life and destiny that led him to inquire into the psychological and spiritual aspects of human nature rather than the physical nature of the universe. He left the academic world to pursue an in-depth journey of inner discovery, applying his scientific precision and discipline to personal, experiential research. This included study with different teachers in different modalities, extensive reading, and continuous study of his own consciousness in an effort to understand the essential nature of human experience and reality in general.

Hameed’s process of exploration led to the creation of the Ridhwan School and, with his colleague Karen Johnson, resulted in the founding and unfoldment of the Diamond Approach. He is the author of 20 books, including Nondual Love: Awakening to the Loving Nature of Reality, Love Unveiled: Discovering the Essence of the Awakened Heart, Keys to the Enneagram: How to Unlock the Highest Potential of Every Personality Type, The Unfolding Now: Realizing Your True Nature through the Practice of Presence, and more. 

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 149 (Part 1 of 2) | In the third dialogue of the A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series, Hameed Ali brings us to a deeper understanding of individual consciousness, our true nature, in relation to pure consciousness. Once we come to know what consciousness is, he says, our spiritual experience truly begins. The conversation flows through many illuminating teachings: how true nature manifests itself in many ways—there is no one way, no final way; reality is only what we perceive it to be—there is no hard and fast reality “out there;” and the ego is not some sort of developmental mistake—it only becomes a problem if we become fixated on it. Psychology helps us see how the soul became the ego, Hameed explains, and psychodynamics reflect how our individual consciousness becomes imprinted by experience, the effects of which can be unraveled through spiritual inquiry. 

When asked how he is able to write so remarkably clearly and concisely, fine-cut like a diamond, Hameed explains that the teachings articulate themselves as he writes by becoming his direct experience in the moment. He is not channeling, nor is his individual self expressing an opinion, the teaching simply expresses itself by becoming his true nature. This conversation is inspiring on many levels as consciousness becomes more graspable and because, as Roger says, Hameed’s teaching is grounded in our being capable of realizing being. At the end, Hameed gives a beautifully resonant account of why we love freedom. Once again, Hameed’s profound teachings come as a transmission and are a joy to receive. Recorded August 8, 2024.

“Humanity needs realized individuals, sources of light and understanding, to keep the true spirit of what a human being is alive.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing the third dialogue of the A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series, focused on the introduction of The Inner Journey Home, a diagnosis of our root challenge: dissociation (01:02)
• On humanity’s capacity to wake up from being asleep to who we really are (04:15)
• This path is a journey into reality, not focused specifically on relief from suffering (07:00)
• Reality is only what we perceive it to be (08:31)
• The main delusion we suffer from is believing the way we experience this world is the only way (10:48)
• Spiritual work doesn’t try to resolve social conflicts—it is for individuals and small groups to transform (13:41)
• Humanity needs realized individuals, sources of light and understanding, to keep the true spirit of what a human being is alive (15:28)
• Hameed’s experience of writing: the teaching articulates itself and becomes his experience in the moment—that’s why there is a transmission (16:42)
• True nature is the fundamental truth of human beings, the nature of consciousness—it’s not physical but at some point the distinction between physical and spiritual disappears (24:27)
• True nature manifests itself in many ways: there is no one way, no final way (26:00)
• The journey of ascent and descent: how we come to recognize ourselves as the absolute dimension and how we bring the vastness back into the realm of life (28:47)
• An individual is not a separate person; the complete human being is one who integrates both heaven and earth (32:45)
• When did Hameed start speaking English and the remarkable quality of his prose (35:34)

• A. H. Almaas (Hameed Ali), founder of The Ridhwan School, home of The Diamond Approach
• A. H. Almaas, The Inner Journey Home: Soul’s Realization of the Unity of Reality*
• A. H. Almaas, Runaway Realization: Living a Life of Ceaseless Discovery*
• Karen Johnson, The Jeweled Path: The Biography of the Diamond Approach to Inner Realization*
• The Ten Ox Herding Pictures from the Zen tradition

The A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series will generally follow the sequence of Hameed’s magnum opus, The Inner Journey Home* (which John describes as psychoactive and spiritually, psychologically, and intellectually transformative), so listeners may want to get a copy of this book, to study and follow along on this exhilarating path of awakening.

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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A. Hameed Ali (A. H. Almaas) was born in Kuwait in 1944. At the age of eighteen, he moved to the U.S. to study at the University of California in Berkeley. Hameed was working on his Ph.D. in physics when he reached a turning point in his life and destiny that led him to inquire into the psychological and spiritual aspects of human nature rather than the physical nature of the universe. He left the academic world to pursue an in-depth journey of inner discovery, applying his scientific precision and discipline to personal, experiential research. This included study with different teachers in different modalities, extensive reading, and continuous study of his own consciousness in an effort to understand the essential nature of human experience and reality in general.

Hameed’s process of exploration led to the creation of the Ridhwan School and, with his colleague Karen Johnson, resulted in the founding and unfoldment of the Diamond Approach. He is the author of 20 books, including Nondual Love: Awakening to the Loving Nature of Reality, Love Unveiled: Discovering the Essence of the Awakened Heart, Keys to the Enneagram: How to Unlock the Highest Potential of Every Personality Type, The Unfolding Now: Realizing Your True Nature through the Practice of Presence, and more.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Cindy Wigglesworth, trailblazer in the field of spiritual intelligence, has created an assessment tool that identifies our spiritual strengths and weaknesses—qualities that fall outside the traditional IQ or emotional intelligence (EQ) parameters—in order to provide a guide for determining which skills we as individuals need to develop in order to show up in the world as love in action. Early on, Cindy recognized the profound benefits that both spiritual practice and EQ assessments had in her leadership development work, wishing only there was a map similar to what EQ offers but going one step higher, to lead people in the realm of spiritual development. So she created a multidimensional self-assessment tool to do just that, wrote the book SQ21: The 21 Skills of Spiritual Intelligence, and founded the global leadership development network Deep Change. 

Cindy’s dedication, brilliant intellect, integral understanding, and the effects of a lifetime of spiritual motivation and practice are abundantly evident in this warmly personal, articulate, and inspiring conversation about spirituality and how we can come to embody the values we aspire to. It’s easy to love people in the abstract, Cindy points out, but how we actually behave is what’s critical. What would love see? she asks, when talking about the practice of reframing. As co-host John Dupuy said, this conversation is like “an infusion of spiritual vitamins.” It’s also very timely—Cindy reflects that spiritual intelligence skills and learning how to sustain faith are more important than ever in these times of polarization and crisis. Recorded July 18, 2024.

“Spiritual intelligence is the ability to behave with wisdom and compassion while maintaining inner and outer peace regardless of the situation.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• Introducing Cindy Wigglesworth, world authority on spirituality, creator of the SQ21 assessment that measures spiritual intelligence (01:25)
• How did Cindy come to focus on the field of spiritual intelligence? (04:18)
• Cindy’s existential quest began with moving to India at the age of six (05:59)
• Leadership development skills benefit directly from spiritual practice (10:08)
• Discovering Goleman & Boyatzis’ work on emotional intelligence (EQ)—where was the equivalent on spiritual intelligence? (11:58)
• Defining the terms spirituality and spiritual intelligence (15:21)
• Spiritual intelligence = love in action (18:21)
• State experiences are not sufficient for showing up as love in the world (20:35)
• Exemplars of spiritual intelligence and the quality of equanimity (21:53)
• The road to a pluralistic understanding of Christianity (24:49)
• Inheriting both strengths & weaknesses of her parents (29:40)
• Cindy’s SQ model emulates the EQ model with 4 quadrants (31:05)
• How Cindy developed the 21 skills and survey for her SQ assessment (32:56)
• A positive age correlation for skills, which grow over time, is essential (36:00)
• What strikes Cindy having given this test to so many? The 3 levels of value (37:06)
• The SQ test can uncover weak foundations under skills people thought they had down (39:59)
• How has Cindy’s understanding of spirituality changed during this process? (41:26) 
• Spiral Dynamics’ stages of development: we are all playing chords of a melody of colors (42:43)
• SQ assessment levels’ relationship with developmental stages (46:35)
• Do certain practices help with building these skills? Reframing skills are Cindy’s favorite: What would love see? (49:32)
• Exchanging self with other: practicing with Trump and the current political situation (54:45)
• Cindy’s website and resources (59:04)
• How does religion factor into this and the importance of sustaining faith in these difficult times (1:00:19)

• Cindy’s website, DeepChange.com, has free resources and a sample assessment
• Cindy Wigglesworth, SQ21:The 21 Skills of Spiritual Intelligence*
• Roger Walsh, Essential Spirituality: The 7 Central Practices to Awaken Heart and Mind*
• Rachel Carson, Silent Spring*
• The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator
• Daniel Goleman, Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ*
• Daniel Goleman, Richard Boyatzis & Annie McKee, Primal Leadership: Unleashing the Power of Emotional Intelligence*
• Abraham Maslow, The Farther Reaches of Human Nature*
• Helen Schucman, A Course of Miracles* (Foundation for Inner Peace)
• Susanne Cook-Greuter, Postautonomous Ego Development: A Study of Its Nature and Measurement*
• Clare Graves & Don Beck, Spiral Dynamics: Mastering Values, Leadership and Change*
• Roland (Rollie)Stanich, Integral Christianity: The Way of Embodied Love*
• James Fowler, Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Cindy Wigglesworth is the bestselling author of SQ21: The Twenty-One Skills of Spiritual Intelligence. Her SQ21 spiritual intelligence self-assessment has created a validated and diversity-appropriate way of having spiritual conversations in the workplace. John Mackey, CEO of Whole Foods Market, calls SQ “the next frontier in Leadership.” Endorsed by Ken Wilber, Cindy’s dialogue with him on SQ is available here: https://integrallife.com/spiritual-intelligence-measuring-the-infinite/. Cindy has appeared on Oprah, PBS, TEDxLowerEastSide, TEDxSonomaCounty and numerous radio programs and conferences. She is the current Chairperson of the Board at Unity of Houston. Her website is www.deepchange.com.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 147 (Part 3 of 3) | Award-winning author, Zen priest and teacher, Kung Fu master, and professional advisor and trainer, Keith Martin-Smith, took a good look at the diversity, equity, and inclusion movement when he began to notice the damage it was causing people he knew under the guise of progress, or equity. Putting his keen mind to the task, Keith identified seven key areas where the DEI movement goes markedly astray from the values it aspires to. Coming from an integral understanding, Keith does more than simply point out where the movement has backfired. We learn that postmodern thinking is how we became aware of the “subtle soup of racism [and bias] in the cultural field itself”—beyond the concrete, obvious social injustices that activists fought in the 20th century. This more subtle field of bias is responsible for the inequalities we see in society today, which is what the DEI movement would like to tear down. But the ways in which DEI acts to make this happen, ironically, are characterized by exactly the things that DEI is against: intolerance, inequity, undiversity, tribalism, and anti-liberalism.

In his wise, articulate, and gracious way, Keith makes sense of why the diversity, equity, and inclusion movement has become a political flashpoint, raising the hackles of not only rightwing conservatives but also liberal progressives. Sympathetic to the values of DEI, Keith is all about helping to create a more diverse, equitable, and inclusive movement. When asked how the values of DEI could be fulfilled to make it the harmonious, effective, correcting movement it aspires to be, Keith responded, “with conversations like this, for one thing,” adding, “we need to realize that everyone has a portion of truth—we just need to connect everyone’s portion of truth with their heart.” Recorded June 6, 2024.

“Everybody cares…they just care about different things. Consensus and change come from being willing to listen to what people care about and finding space to honor that.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• What is liberalism? (01:18)
• The nature of DEI’s anti-liberalism: banning free speech and more (05:08)
• White fragility is a non-argument and it’s anti-liberal (09:30)
• Another dangerous idea: silence is violence (10:44)
• Allowing trial by public opinion (11:41)
• Creating a true meritocracy: results from blind auditioning symphony musicians (14:13)
• Forced equality of outcome: is forcing 20% of symphony goers to be black a good idea? (15:31)
• Going far right and far left, you find they mirror each other (18:32)
• The klansmen who turned in their robes after talking to a black man (21:11)
• What could be done to fulfill the values of DEI and make it the effective correcting movement it aspires to be? (23:39)
• DEI at its best: recognizing the subtle ways in which cognitive bias affects the culture (27:05)
• The postmodern/DEI point of view doesn’t see how they are projecting their beliefs onto the culture (29:45)
• Microaggressions are real—but DEI proponents conflate microaggressions with macroaggressions (34:46)
• Critical race theory is the only explanatory theory in the DEI toolbox (39:33)
• Critical theory says power dynamics distort all interactions (44:15)
• The presumption of oppression and power is inaccurate from a biological standpoint (50:17)
• Partial truths are worth honoring (53:14)
• Everybody cares: finding space to honor that (56:09)
• What can we do to turn things around? (59:34)
• The difference between dignity and respect (01:01:10)

• Steve McIntosh, co-founder of the Institute for Cultural Evolution, author of Developmental Politics: How America Can Grow into a Better Version of Itself*, see also Consciousness Evolves, Politics Can Too (Deep Transformation podcast)
• Shachar Erez, Israeli therapist who brought a Palestinian woman and far right Israeli woman together on his podcast, see also Coping with the Horrors of War: An Israeli Therapist Shares the Agony, Grief & Uncertainty of Wartime (Deep Transformation podcast)
• Daryl Davis, How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes (NPR story)
• Jordan Peterson, psychologist, author, popular media commentator
• Critical race theory
• Critical theory
• Dignity versus Respect with Rosalind Wiseman (YouTube video)
• Keith Martin-Smith’s website: https://www.keithmartinsmith.com
• Keith Martin-Smith, When the Buddha Needs Therapy*
• Keith Martin-Smith, A Heart Blown Open: The Life and Practice of Zen Master Jun Po Denis Kelly Roshi*
• Keith Martin-Smith, The Seven Deadly Sins of DEI (Integral Life video presentation)
• Keith Martin-Smith, Reintegrating DEI: Beyond the Culture Wars (Integral Life video presentation)

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Keith Martin-Smith is the award-winning author of five books, most recently When the Buddha Needs Therapy, about which Ken Wilber said, “This is a terrific book, fully embracing a truly Integral perspective and highly recommended.” He is also an ordained Zen priest, a Northern Kung Fu lineage holder and recognized sifu, and a professional advisor and trainer. More at KeithMartinSmith.com.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 146 (Part 2 of 3) | Award-winning author, Zen priest and teacher, Kung Fu master, and professional advisor and trainer, Keith Martin-Smith, took a good look at the diversity, equity, and inclusion movement when he began to notice the damage it was causing people he knew under the guise of progress, or equity. Putting his keen mind to the task, Keith identified seven key areas where the DEI movement goes markedly astray from the values it aspires to. Coming from an integral understanding, Keith does more than simply point out where the movement has backfired. We learn that postmodern thinking is how we became aware of the “subtle soup of racism [and bias] in the cultural field itself”—beyond the concrete, obvious social injustices that activists fought in the 20th century. This more subtle field of bias is responsible for the inequalities we see in society today, which is what the DEI movement would like to tear down. But the ways in which DEI acts to make this happen, ironically, are characterized by exactly the things that DEI is against: intolerance, inequity, undiversity, tribalism, and anti-liberalism.

In his wise, articulate, and gracious way, Keith makes sense of why the diversity, equity, and inclusion movement has become a political flashpoint, raising the hackles of not only rightwing conservatives but also liberal progressives. Sympathetic to the values of DEI, Keith is all about helping to create a more diverse, equitable, and inclusive movement. When asked how the values of DEI could be fulfilled to make it the harmonious, effective, correcting movement it aspires to be, Keith responded, “with conversations like this, for one thing,” adding, “we need to realize that everyone has a portion of truth—we just need to connect everyone’s portion of truth with their heart.” Recorded June 6, 2024.

“All of us deserve to be treated with dignity that is innate in all of us.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

• DEI’s overemphasis on oppression and power: how it started (00:50)
• Critical race theory’s metaview is that the world operates on principles of power and oppression (01:57)
• The single cause fallacy (02:59) 
• Drawing the wrong conclusions: Kenyans and marathons, women and STEM fields (04:10)
• Male dominance in sports caused by bias rather than biology? (12:03)
• The wage gap between men and women and significant difference it makes to control for factors (18:51)
• Why men outearn women at Uber: subtle differences in the way men and women behave (27:39)
• IQ and how men dominate the extremes of the Bell Curve (29:34)
• Fairness demands that everyone is treated the best way possible (34:18)
• Brief review of the main DEI flaws covered so far: DEI’s simplistic view of privilege; how DEI’s diversity doesn’t look at diverse mindsets; intolerance of other viewpoints; pushing everything through critical race theory; and how equality of outcomes can be oppressive, unfair, sexist & racist (35:31)
• Tribalism: DEI compartmentalizes everyone to a tribalistic identity, with the focus on race and sex (40:05)
• How to explain a white supremacist group run by people who are not white: multiracial whiteness (46:00)
• The primary goal should be to cultivate relationship rather than projecting a whole history on an individual based on their skin color or sex (49:20)

• André Pichot, known for his critical writings on issues related to genetics
• Critical Race Theory
• STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, math)
• Duke Law Study: Comparing Athletic Performances: The Best Elite Women to Boys and Men
• Richard Herrnstein & Charles Murray, The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life*
• Jordan Peterson, psychologist, author, popular media commentator
• Susan Nieman, Left is Not Woke* 
• The Proud Boys
• Keith Martin-Smith’s website: https://www.keithmartinsmith.com
• Keith Martin-Smith, When the Buddha Needs Therapy*
• Keith Martin-Smith, A Heart Blown Open: The Life and Practice of Zen Master Jun Po Denis Kelly Roshi*
• Keith Martin-Smith, The Seven Deadly Sins of DEI (Integral Life video presentation)
• Keith Martin-Smith, Reintegrating DEI: Beyond the Culture Wars (Integral Life video presentation)

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Keith Martin-Smith is the award-winning author of five books, most recently When the Buddha Needs Therapy, about which Ken Wilber said, “This is a terrific book, fully embracing a truly Integral perspective and highly recommended.” He is also an ordained Zen priest, a Northern Kung Fu lineage holder and recognized sifu, and a professional advisor and trainer. More at KeithMartinSmith.com.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell