Do you actually have hobbies, or do you just have things that feel like self-improvement projects? In this episode, Jo kicks off an “Adventure Year” with her best friend Jackie, a grad student in positive psychology who went through a midlife crisis that left her feeling like a houseplant in the corner just watching everyone else enjoying their lives. Therapy, research, and a Mahjong class later, Jackie is obsessed with how women both need and lack true hobbies that are not about weight loss, productivity, or caregiving.

Jo and Jackie talk about intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation, why yoga and Pilates usually don’t count as hobbies, how play boosts wellbeing, and the idea of “psychological richness” that comes from trying new things.

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