In this conversation, Chris Yates and Simon Western discuss how organizations have become modern temples of power, shaping societal norms in positive and challenging ways. Organizations offer spaces to be productive, to deliver services and to provide meaning and development for individuals, yet they also can stifle individuality and feedback through corporate conformity. The podcast reflects on how art, small acts of kindness and ecosystems thinking are the leadership approaches that can transform organisations and liberate employees to engage relationally and realise their full potential.

Chris questions traditional leadership models, highlighting the need to prioritize character over competence and move beyond the military-influenced structures that dominate corporate life. Leadership, they argue, is not about static positions but fluid relationships—emerging in unexpected places and shaped by small moments of humanity rather than grand, ego-driven achievements. The conversation also highlights the burden of projections on leaders, who risk becoming seduced by the images others place upon them.

Looking ahead, Simon and Chris consider the future of leadership in a world that increasingly demands authenticity and interconnectedness. They call for a shift to eco-centric leadership,  one that embraces moral responsibility, acknowledges the social role of organizations, and also seeks inspiration from art to reimagine work and leadership. Chris closes by reminding us that the smallest acts of kindness and courage in the face of adversity can reshape leadership, organizations, and society itself.

corporate culture, society, leadership, power dynamics, identity, character, reimagination, eco-leadership

Christopher Yates, Senior Vice President of Talent at Equinix, is a leader committed to professional and personal growth within organizations. He oversees Equinix’s global talent strategy, focusing on attracting, developing, and retaining diverse talent while aligning leadership initiatives with the company’s growth and innovation objectives.  Previously Chris held senior OD positions in Microsoft, Ford, American Express, Caterpillar and HSBC bank, playing a vital role in shaping business transformation.  Chris is co-author with Pooja Sachdev of Rewire: A Radical Approach to Tackling Diversity and Difference and has also co-authored Share: How Organizations Can Thrive in an Age of Networked Knowledge, Power and Relationships. Chris brings a huge breadth of experience to organisational thinking, and is admired for his empathy, dynamism and original and imaginative leadership. 

In this episode Bernice Hewson and Simon Western challenge the conventional coaching paradigm, exposing its tendency to operate in a decontextualized bubble—detached from the social, political, and historical forces shaping our identities. Bernice brings personal insights from her own journey toward racial consciousness, unpacking the ways coaching often fails to engage with racial trauma, frequently misdiagnosing it as imposter syndrome.

Together, they explore the complexities of addressing racial identities in work and coaching,  where labels and names carry power—how they define, constrain, and sometimes liberate.

This isn’t about surface-level diversity work; it’s about questioning the structures within which coaching exists. They explore the profound discomfort required to build true racial literacy, the impact of institutional whiteness in coaching spaces, and the need for collaboration to ignite meaningful change. Coaching, Bernice argues, must move beyond individual self-improvement and cultivate a critical awareness—one that challenges dominant narratives and creates space for authentic shifts in practice.

The episode closes with a call to action: to embrace the edges, hold space for the difficult conversations, and commit to coaching as a radical, relational, and socially conscious practice.

racial consciousness, identity, coaching,  decolonization, belonging, racial equity, personal journey

Bernice Hewson, founder of Raising Racial Consciousness, is dedicated to challenging conventional thinking to build a racially equitable society. An accredited coach (European Mentoring and Coaching Council) and emotional intelligence practitioner, she holds a Psychosocial MA in ‘Race,’ Empire, and Post-coloniality.

With over 15 years in corporate leadership, Bernice understands the complexities leaders face in driving meaningful diversity and inclusion strategies. She emphasizes that lasting change begins with individuals and that racially conscious leadership is essential for progress.

Bernice equips leaders and coaches with the knowledge, language, and confidence to engage in critical diversity conversations. Through safe spaces for learning and reflection, she empowers professionals to develop race-consciousness as a core competency, fostering inclusion and equity in workplaces and beyond.

Prof. Manfred Kets de Vries, is a global thought leader, who is best known for applying psychoanalytic thinking to the challenges of leaders and organisations.   He discusses his journey from psychoanalysis to leadership development, the societal forces that shape leaders, and the critical role of emotional awareness in navigating today’s volatile landscapes. 

Kets de Vries exposes the hidden psychological currents that drive leadership—how unconscious patterns, unresolved trauma, and deep-seated insecurities manifest in boardrooms and political arenas alike. He explores the destructive nature of narcissistic leadership, the rising stress and impatience among CEOs, and the ways in which cultural expectations mold our leaders for better or worse.  Manfred and Simon discuss toxic leadership today, and then focus on what can be done. Manfred shares his experience that ultimately leadership is about relationships—about the capacity for self-awareness, reflection, and genuine connection.

In a world where political fault lines deepen, Manfred challenges us not just to analyze leadership from a distance but to engage with it personally—to recognize our own role in shaping the leadership cultures around us. Because leadership isn’t just about those at the top; it’s about how we choose to show up in our own lives, our communities, and our organizations.

leadership, toxic leadership, narcissism, psychoanalysis, organizational change, political leadership, societal impact, emotional intelligence, executive coaching, personal development

Brief Bio

Manfred F. R. Kets de Vries is the Distinguished Clinical Professor of Leadership Development and Organisational Change and the Raoul de Vitry d'Avaucourt Chaired Professor of Leadership Development, Emeritus, at INSEAD. He integrates economics, management, and psychoanalysis to explore leadership, executive stress, career dynamics, entrepreneurship, and corporate transformation. He founded the INSEAD Global Leadership Centre and directs The Challenge of Leadership Executive Education program.

He has held professorships at McGill University, HEC Montréal, and Harvard Business School. A prolific scholar, he has authored 49 books and over 400 academic papers, with works translated into 31 languages. His latest book, Narcissistic Leadership, delves into the complex interplay between narcissism and leadership, offering profound insights into its impact on organizations and society. Among many other awards, he  received the INSEAD Distinguished Teacher Award five times and was recognized as one of the world’s top 50 management thinkers by Financial Times, Le Capital, Wirtschaftswoche, and The Economist.

As a consultant, he has advised leading organizations across the US, Canada, Europe, Africa, and Asia on organizational transformation and strategic human resource management. Honored as an Officer in the Order of Oranje Nassau, he is also an adventurer and a member of New York’s Explorers Club, frequently exploring remote regions such as the Arctic Circle, Siberia, and Central Africa.

Professor Susan Long and Dr. Simon Western's conversation takes us on a journey into the roots of the unconscious, tracing its lineage from early philosophical thought to contemporary psychoanalysis. Susan challenges the dominant view that confines the unconscious to an individual and pathological framework, arguing instead for a more expansive understanding—one that is inherently social, cultural, and even ecological. She draws on thinkers like Schelling, whose work connects the unconscious with nature and spirit, suggesting that our inner depths are not isolated but enmeshed in the world around us. She critiques the ideological structures that shape how we perceive the unconscious, drawing on the Frankfurt School’s insights into culture and power. At the heart of this discussion is the notion that creativity—so often seen as an individual gift—actually emerges from the collective unconscious, offering both potential and peril.

This conversation invites us to consider the ethical dimension of confronting the unconscious, urging us to move beyond mere self-awareness and towards a deeper responsibility—to ourselves, our communities, and the wider world.

The unconscious has historical roots that predate Freud.

Schelling's work links the unconscious to nature and spirit.

The unconscious is not just individual but also social and cultural.

Creativity emerges from the collective unconscious.

The Frankfurt School critiques how ideologies embed in culture.

Human beings can be both creative and destructive.

Neuroscience offers insights into the emotional aspects of the unconscious.

The bicameral mind theory suggests a collective consciousness.

Facing uncomfortable truths is an ethical responsibility.

Individuality should not overshadow our connection to the community.

unconscious, psychoanalysis, Schelling, Freud, social dynamics, creativity, Frankfurt School, group mind, nature, ethical responsibility

Professor Susan Long is PhD Co-Lead and Research Lead at NIODA and former Professor of Creative and Sustainable Organisation at RMIT University, Melbourne. She supervises doctoral candidates, teaches in global programs such as INSEAD’s Master of Coaching and Consulting (Singapore), and consults on leadership, organisational change, and executive coaching.

A trained clinical psychologist and psychotherapist, Susan has a deep interest in the unconscious and its influence on individuals, groups, and organisations. She has served on advisory boards, including Comcare’s Centre of Excellence for Research into Mental Health at Work, and was the founding President of Group Relations Australia. She is also a past President of the International Society for the Psychoanalytic Study of Organisations (ISPSO), where she contributed to advancing psychoanalytic approaches to leadership and organisational life. Her latest book, The Evolution of the Unconscious: Exploring Persons, Groups, Nature and Spirit, traces the historical development of unconscious thought, from early philosophical ideas to contemporary psychoanalysis. She explores how the unconscious operates not only within individuals but also within social, ecological, and spiritual dimensions. Through this lens, she challenges reductionist views and offers a broader, interconnected understanding.

In this conversation, Simon and Amitabh discuss the current state of the world characterized by a polycrisis, primarily driven by neoliberalism. They explore the implications of this crisis on civil society, the role of the left, and the importance of grassroots movements. The dialogue emphasizes the need for emotional engagement in advocacy and the potential for change through collective action and solidarity.

polycrisis, neoliberalism, left politics, civil society, grassroots movements, international aid, activism, generational perspectives, emotional engagement, human dignity

Amitabh Behar, Executive Director of Oxfam International, is a global civil society leader with decades of experience in human rights, economic inequalities, governance, and social justice. Previously CEO of Oxfam India, he has held leadership roles in CIVICUS, Navsarjan, and Yuva. He serves on several global boards, including the Global Fund for Community Foundation and the Norwegian Human Rights Fund. Before Oxfam, he was Executive Director of the National Foundation for India and co-chaired the Global Call to Action Against Poverty, a network of over 11,000 civil society organizations. His work focuses on democracy, philanthropy, and citizen participation.

In this conversation, Anna Harvey discusses her integration of psychoanalysis and ecology in her work as a senior lecturer in social work. She emphasizes the importance of understanding child protection within a broader sociopolitical context and advocates for a public health approach to social work. Anna explores how ecological perspectives can inform systemic thinking and the interconnectedness of individuals within their environments. The discussion highlights the need to decenter the individual and recognize the symbiotic relationships that exist in both nature and society. In this conversation, Simon and Anna explore the significance of language in psychoanalysis, the transformative practice of composting as a metaphor for personal growth, and the interconnectedness of all living beings. They discuss the importance of symbiosis in nature, the need to re-enchant our lives with spirituality, and the reflections on what it means to live a good life in a society that often prioritizes superficial experiences over deep connections.

The internal psychological world is shaped by external environmental factors.

Ecology provides a lens to understand systemic interconnections.

Diversity in ecosystems creates strength and resilience.

Symbiosis is a fundamental aspect of life and ecology.

Understanding our interconnectedness can reshape our approach to social issues. 

Composting encourages a physical and spiritual engagement with our thoughts.

We are small parts of a vast interconnected universe.

Modern life often alienates us from our true selves.

Experiences should be deep and meaningful, not superficial.

We must engage with diverse perspectives to grow.

Living a good life involves recognizing our place in the world.

ecology, psychoanalysis,social work, systemic thinking, ecological crisis, psychosocial approach, permaculture, interconnectedness, public health, psychoanalysis, composting, interconnectedness, symbiosis, ecology, spirituality, good life, education, nature, holistic thinking

Anna Harvey is a senior lecturer at the Tavistock and Portman Trust, teaching on the professional doctorate in social work. With 27 years of experience in child protection and social care, she leads modules on reflexivity, institutional observation, and psychosocial interventions, integrating psychoanalytic and ecological perspectives. Her teaching emphasizes self-awareness, therapeutic relationships, and systemic thinking. She supervises doctoral students, focusing on marginalised voices in social work. As a consultant, she trains professionals in reflective supervision. Her awareness of the ecological crisis led to organizing a climate psychology conference and co-editing a special journal issue. She incorporates ecological metaphors into social work education, helping students understand complexity, adaptation, and systemic interconnections. Her research explores interconnection and hyper-individualism. Personally, she home-educates her son in ecology, evolution, and natural history, driven by a deep passion for the dynamic interplay between biotic and abiotic systems, shaping both social work and environmental awareness.  

In this provocative episode, Simon and Lauri dive into the disruptive potential of AI to reshape coaching as we know it. They challenge traditional coaching paradigms, exploring how systemic coaching can integrate with AI to amplify impact. The conversation takes a sharp turn into ethics, questioning the accountability of AI designers and the values underpinning these technologies.

Simon and Lauri explore the triad of AI, human coaches and clients, and how they might work together to co-create powerful organisational outcomes. As they unpack these relationships, they reveal new ways of thinking about human-AI collaboration.

Lauri also brings his reflective lens to the bigger picture: what does it mean to live a good life and build a good society in the age of rapid technological change? This episode inspires a fresh take on adaptability, co-creation, and the need for conscious design in an ever-shifting world.

AI coaching, systemic coaching, ethics, human connection, technology, organizational change, coaching methodologies, coaching relationships, coaching philosophy, coaching and AI

In this conversation, Simon and Mishel explore the significance of First Nations worldviews, and how through the modern worldview we have lost our relationships to the land and wider ecologies including our ancestors.  Mishel McMahon, a proud Yorta Yorta woman living on Djaara Country, northern Victoria, Australia, and shares her lived experience and her academic research to help us break out of our limited modern mindsets, where humans are the top of a chain of being, rather than part of an ecology of co-existence and interdependence. 

She emphasizes the need to reconnect, the importance of relationality, and the concept of cyclical time. Michelle shares insights on how these perspectives can inform health and healing practices, and the conversation culminates in a call for re-enchantment and recognition of our interdependence with the world around us.

First Nations worldviews offer a broader understanding of reality.

Modern mindsets often reduce our connection to nature and each other.

Relationality extends beyond human relationships to include all entities.

Cyclical time emphasizes the interconnectedness of past, present, and future.

Ancestors play a crucial role in decision-making and identity.

Everything in nature is infused with spirit, creating a sense of family.

Collective identity fosters collaboration and mutual support.

Re-enchantment is necessary to combat disenchantment in modern life.

Thinking is a communal practice, influenced by our surroundings.

Connection to place is fundamental for personal and collective transformation.

First Nations, worldviews, modernity, relationality, ancestors, cyclical time, ecosystems, collective identity, re-enchantment, connection to nature

Mishel McMahon is a casual Senior Research Fellow, Violet Vines Marshman Research Centre and proud Yorta Yorta woman living on Djaara Country, northern Victoria. Through First Nations-led research Mishel positions First Nations worldviews, concepts and processes for application within the health and healing sector, and research methodologies. Mishel led the Victorian Aboriginal Research Accord project, an 'On Country' Aboriginal Youth Leadership Aboriginal youth mentoring: a pathway to leadership, Blak Butterfly: First Nations emergency care best practice framework Blak Butterfly and Replanting the Birthing Trees: Our Kids Growing Up Strong, Happy & Healthy. 

In this conversation, Jem Bendel discusses his journey from a career in corporate sustainability to advocating for a radical shift in how we approach climate change and societal collapse. He reflects on his influential paper, 'Deep Adaptation,' which argues that the sustainability movement is no-longer appropriate and that we should prepare for societal collapse. Jem introduces his new framework, 'Breaking Together,' which emphasizes community resilience and eco-libertarianism as a path forward. He shares personal insights about his upbringing and how they shaped his worldview, ultimately advocating for a collective approach to lead localised change. 

Prof. Jem Bendell is Founder of the Deep Adaptation movement, an emeritus professor with the University of Cumbria and the co-Founder of the International Scholars’ Warning on Societal Disruption and Collapse. He worked for over 20 years in corporate sustainability, helping launch or develop many international initiatives. That led to his recognition as a Young Global Leader. His 2018 paper "Deep Adaptation" was downloaded over a million times and is widely credited with helping inspire the growth of the Extinction Rebellion movement. That marked a departure, whereby he concluded the field of sustainability had failed. His new book "Breaking Together" goes further by outlining a collapse-based political framework. Jem also co-hosts the short online course Leading Through Collapse: https://www.katie-carr.com/leadingthroughcollapse.

Gabriella Braun, a renowned consultant and author, delves into her fascinating journey, sharing her insights from her latest book, All that we are: Uncovering the Hidden Truths Behind Our Behaviour at Work. Gabriella discusses how psychoanalytic principles can provide deep insights into organizational dynamics and group behavior, influencing everything from leadership to team cohesion. Her emphasis on emotional awareness highlights its critical role in effective coaching, while she explores how vulnerability in professional environments can foster stronger connections and transform group interactions.

Gabriella underscores the importance of humanizing the workplace, particularly in the face of rapid digitalization and societal change. She reflects on the interplay between personal and professional boundaries, noting how understanding these elements can contribute to healthier organizations. Gabriella also touches on societal issues, emphasizing the need for sensitivity and awareness in addressing them within organizations.The discussion centers on the broader theme of living a balanced, meaningful life, where understanding human desire and behavior, curiosity, and playfulness contribute not just to workplace success but to a more connected, compassionate society.

Gabriella Braun is the Director of Working Well, a specialist consultancy firm using psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to help leaders and teams. She has consulted to hundreds of clients including British Library, RADA, Tate, NHS Trusts, Schools, Colleges, University of Cambridge and University of London. She holds a masters's degree in Consulting to Organisations: Psychoanalytic Approaches; and was a Principal Consultant with the Tavistock Consultancy Service. She was on on Associate Faculty of the Dynamics of Consulting Program (in US), and has directed and held staff roles in numerous experiential workshops about leadership and team dynamics in UK and abroad.