Ammunition’s Robert Brunner breaks down the headphone renaissance created by Beats by Dr. Dre, tells the story of his accidental path to studying industrial design, and explains why empathy is an important part of his creative process. He also details his chapter as the Director of Industrial Design at Apple, and shares with Jaime and Amy his thoughts on fatherhood and education.

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Clever is created, hosted and produced by Amy Devers and Jaime Derringer with music from El Ten Eleven and editing by Chris Modl.

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