After two years of podcasting together, Shadi and Damir think they've gained some clarity on where their worldviews diverge: it's especially pronounced on the question of how to do foreign policy. As the conversation unspools, and with the ghost of John McCain hovering over the show, the guys draw out where they come out on various milestones—from the Iraq war, to NATO Expansion, to Obama's policy of "Don't do stupid sh*t."

Part 2 of our conversation is available here. Shadi and Damir take note of how disappointing last 20 years of history have been for U.S. foreign policy, and ask whether Trump's legacy might be as lasting as Reagan or Truman's.

Subscribe here to listen. Members will also gain access to other paid content, including weekly bonus episodes, Q&As with Shadi and Damir, and our full archive of Friday Essays.

Required Reading

• "Not Caring about Ukraine and Feeling Guilty About It" (Wisdom of Crowds)
• "Who Wrecked Afghanistan?" (Wisdom of Crowds)
• "Wokeness Is Not Leftism. Or Is It?" (Wisdom of Crowds)
• "The U.S. Approach to Ukraine’s Border War Isn’t Working. Here’s What Biden Should Do Instead." by Samuel Charap (Politico)
• "Why America Needs Hypocrisy" by Shadi Hamid (Wisdom of Crowds)