For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the first Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Priorities.

We are handed a set of priorities by society and our culture, but when we really consider ourselves and our personal values, we can see how individual our priorities can be! When we choose priorities that feel good to us, it becomes easier to make day-to-day choices that align with what is important to us.

We talk about how our relationships fit into our priorities (and—spoiler alert—they’re at the top of our lists!) and how prioritizing connection has become a focus for both of us as we tuned out the external noise and tuned into how we want to show up in the world.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so excited you found us and look forward to exploring our relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. So, on today’s episode, we’re going to talk about priorities. And I love this as a starting place for the podcast, because it’s such an interesting topic to examine.

Priorities are so individual, and yet, so often, we’re handed a set of priorities from society. We’re handed definitions of success and where and how we should be spending our time.

And there are these heavy guardrails of judgment that we have to move through if we choose to deviate from these expected paths.

So, it can be really interesting, I’ve found, to dig into those outside voices, that judgment. What’s behind it? What purpose does it serve? And is it helping me get in touch with who I am and who I want to be in the world?

I think about the studies that they do when people are on their deathbed and they’re asked, is there anything that you would change? And consistently, they answer that they wished they had prioritized their relationships over achievements or the next promotion.

For me personally, I came to that realization for myself after our first child had a life-threatening after birth experience. Almost losing her really woke me up to the path I was on and to look at how I wanted to spend my time. And the answer for me was doing things I love with the people that I love. And that’s how I want to spend this time that I’m given. And understanding that has just been a huge guide for me ever since.

So, I’m curious, Pam, what’s it been like for you?

PAM: Well, it was having children that sparked my journey, as well. I found that those first few years were just filled with questions like who I wanted to be as a person and parent. And, having internalized so many of society’s goals and stories growing up, it took me a while, quite a while, to realize just how much choice I actually had.

I didn’t need to just dutifully take on the path and the priorities that were handed to me. I could figure out what I value and make those things a priority in my. And then, as I continued to ask more questions, I came to realize what would always be in my life, and it was my relationships. Jobs, hobbies, areas of interest, while definitely being integral parts of who I am, those would come and go over the years. They had been coming and going over the years. But my relationships with my family would always be in my life. They were and are a fundamental part of just my being in the world.

And so, since that aha moment, I have chosen to prioritize my relationships. And rather surprisingly, because you think I’m focusing on something, so I’m closing things down to this one thing, but I found that my life has been so much richer for it.

ANNA: Oh, my gosh. So much richer. I feel like when we have that foundation of strong, connected relationships, it’s just this really wonderful place from which we can explore the world and learn about ourselves. Because I think that might have been the most surprising piece for me, that as I focused on being in relationship with others, I learned so much about myself. It’s not always easy, but I’m grateful for it.

And so, as I’m thinking about this, we both got to this place where we didn’t want to be taking these priorities that were being handed to us. The next bit for me was realizing that others don’t want me to define their priorities either.

So, when we think about our partners or kids, it was really helpful to think, am I judging how they spend their time, the choices that they’re making? Because that judgment comes between us. We don’t learn why they’re making the choices they’re making. We miss the opportunity to really connect with them and who they are. It’s got this cloud of expectation and you’ll have some people that will buck against that expectation in really dramatic fashion. And then you’ll have others that really try to meet it, even if it’s not in alignment for them. But, either way, the connection is harmed and can be lost together.

So, I try not to be the outside voice that someone needs to shut out, but instead be someone who celebrates and just unconditionally supports the people in my life.

PAM: Absolutely. That was definitely yet another layer to peel back for me, realizing how valuable it was for me to contemplate and choose my priorities, but that didn’t mean my priorities were the best priorities for anyone else. It makes so much sense to me why my priorities are these and in this order, but no, everyone is a different person. And I remember the huge shift in my relationship with my spouse when I stopped trying to convince him that my priorities should be his priorities as well, which had looked like me trying to tell him what to do and when. And I was definitely nice about it. I wasn’t trying to bully him or anything, but as I thought about it, I was trying to convince him that I was right and vice versa. That’s where our conversations went. They were often about convincing each other that our priorities and choices were more right than the other person’s. There was definitely a winner and a loser.

But once I began to share my priorities without trying to convince him to adopt them, oh, my gosh. There was space for him to start sharing his without me judging them. Each of us was more able to be ourselves. We could just share and see how things landed. And then, that in turn helped us learn more about each other as we’d chat about the things that are important to us and why. And recognizing that his priorities are as important to him as mine are to me. 

ANNA: It’s so true. I don’t know. We get stuck in our head, right? We get stuck in our head thinking everybody’s seeing things the same way. And so, yeah, I just love that next layer.

And I think then, I want to talk about, too, as we hone in on these priorities, it’s such a helpful lens to look at the day to day moments. So, in each moment, we have this opportunity to make choices. And understanding my priorities and then keeping them front of mind as I made choices throughout the day was critical to me, actually honoring them as priorities, versus just giving lip service to, “My relationships are important,” or whatever the thing might be.

So, what that would look like for me, it might be stopping what I’m doing to hear my child excitedly tell me about their game. It’s taking a walk after dinner with David to reconnect, because we’ve had some time apart that day. Because, truthfully, I could curl up with a book and get some work done at the computer, but I do want to tend to that relationship, that priority first. And what I found is that that connection serves us both as we move through the evening and through the subsequent days.

And another really big one for me, this was so huge, was learning to say no to outside requests that took me away from the people that I loved. And here’s the thing. Sometimes there are easy yeses and they feed me and they feel great and they feel great to those around me. But other times, what I noticed is that I was saying yes without really thinking about how it would impact me, my energy, what I would have left to give my family, the time it might take away from spending time with the important people in my life, all of those things.

I’m just seeing the person in front of me with the ask and saying, “Okay, I’ll help,” without really checking in. And using that lens really helped me realize that the time with them was what I wanted to prioritize, and so, I really needed to align my actions with that. So, that becomes the work, aligning our actions with what matters most to us.

PAM: Exactly. Yet another huge layer is, okay, I’ve got these priorities. It’s not sticking them on a post-it note and sticking them somewhere where I’ll see them. It’s, how do these weave into my days, my actual days? What do they look like in action?

And I wanted to mention, it is not about trying to guilt ourselves into making choices that align with our priorities. If we find ourselves doing that regularly, I think that might be a great clue just to revisit our priorities. Apparently, the things that I want to do in my day don’t align with what I thought my priorities were.

ANNA: That’s so interesting.

PAM: So, just revisit them. What you really choose to do in the moment, you want to do in the moment, those outer voices, right? Am I doing it, because I think I should? Or is this something that feels good, that I want to choose, that I choose to do, that I want to do? And you want the things that you choose to do to align with your priorities, as well. They weave together so much.

That said, though, it doesn’t mean that the choices are always easy. Like you were talking about, they aren’t often between a good thing and a bad thing, making the choice easy like, “Oh yeah, between this and this? No, no. This is definitely it.” Often, it’s between two or three lovely things, but that’s where knowing our priorities can be so helpful.

So, using your example, which I love, maybe after dinner I could take a walk with Rocco to reconnect, or I could clean up the kitchen a bit, maybe because it feels nice to me to walk into a tidy kitchen, or I could relax and read a bit. When I think about those choices, the first thing I might realize is that, those aren’t actually either/or things, right? I could do them all over the course of the evening. And taking a moment to consider my priorities helps me put them in an order that aligns with them.

So, maybe I have also learned that once I sit down to relax and read or watch a show, I often feel too tired for a walk after. So, there are a couple of solid reasons to tend to the relationship first for me. So, maybe our walk turns into us tidying the kitchen together as we finish up our conversation. And then we can each go to our own thing feeling refreshed and connected.

There are so many ways that things can unfold. And keeping our priorities in mind helps us choose the path that feels more fulfilling to us.

ANNA: Oh, my gosh, yes. And I think that’s such a great point about, if you’re feeling a rub during your day about, I want to do this, but it’s not aligning with these priorities I’ve set out, if you’re seeing that as a to-do list or a checklist and it’s not feeling good, woo, stop! Just stop right there. And revisit and go, “Wait a minute, are my priorities really lining up with who I want to be right now in this moment?”

And the thing is, they can change. Our priorities can change and they will as we go through different seasons of our lives, as we, grow and change and learn more things about ourselves. So, just looking for those little rub spots, I think, is important.

PAM: Speaking of those rubs, sometimes there are emergencies. There are urgent things in life that come up and I may absolutely choose to do those things. And I may choose to step far out of my comfort zone and do some things, but it’s the act of recognizing, oh yeah, this needs my attention immediately, very, very soon. I am going to do that. Priorities, again, it’s not a rule.

ANNA: No. Or a checklist.

PAM: Choice is right there. But priorities, there’s something that can help us make choices that, again, they feel fulfilling. They feel right. They feel good to us. They help us when we come to a point where there are various possibilities for the next moment.

So, I just think they are so valuable for us to recognize, because sometimes, too, our priorities may look quite mundane. Like relationships. “I see these people every day! Of course I’m in relationship with them. They live down the hall, they sleep down the hall.” So, it can feel like, why is it even worth making that a priority? But that’s the fun part. That’s why it’s so valuable to think about it, to think about the kind of person that I want to be, the kind of parent I want to be, the kind of partner I want to be. And when we’re thinking about it, we’ve got it top of mind as we go through our day. As things come up, as things unfold in front of us, we can make the choices that feel better for us, so that at the end of the day, it often feels just more fulfilling really.

ANNA: Right. And grounded, for me, because again, I think it’s interesting. I think they inform each other. The choice informs the priority. The priorities inform the choice. And so, just that awareness, like you said, top of mind, bringing that awareness, that can really help us. It’s a grounded feeling of like, I’m living the life that I want to live. I am being the person that I want to be and those are the things that I like to check in with myself about periodically. So, yeah, I love that.

Okay, so, we are going to leave you with some questions to ponder this week.

The first one is, how can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts, your inner voice? And so, this will be a big one, just thinking about, where are those voices coming from? What does it sound like for you? What does your voice sound like in contrast? So, just give a little time to sit with that and how you can shut those noises out.

The next one is, what priorities make sense to you and why? Because, like we said, it’s going to be different. There’s going to be seasons. There’s going to be things that shift around based on where you are in your life and what’s happening.

But, “Do they make sense to you?” is going give you a big clue as to, “Are they coming from outside voices versus, is it something that’s really bubbling up from inside of you? Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities? And I think it’s just, again, it’s the mundane in some ways, like Pam was saying. And so, maybe sometimes relationships fall off as we’re thinking, “Oh, we’ve got this career thing we want to do,” or whatever, which are all wonderful things. There’s no good or bad here about what you’re pursuing or doing, but it’s just that check in. Where are they falling and is that where I want them? So, I think that’s just important to look at.

Next one is, are your day-to-day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make? And that’s what we’re talking about, is you’re looking at the different choices you’re making throughout the day. Does it line up with your priorities? And again, keep in mind that it could be that the priorities need to change, or maybe you want to check in about your priorities as you’re making your choices. So, those, again, work together.

Do any of your priorities depend on other people’s actions and choices? And, if so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control? And this goes back to what we were saying about nobody else wanting us to put our priorities on them. It’s that same kind of thing, because it’s like, if we are expecting someone else to move along with our priorities, it’s pretty much a recipe for upset or disconnection, because they’re going to have their own path there. So, really tuning into, are my priorities in alignment with me and things that I can control?

And, for me, what that looks like a lot of times is, am I being the person I want to be? So, my priority may be about a relationship that does involve somebody else, but what I control is how I show up for the relationship.

PAM: Exactly. Yeah. We don’t have control of how other people show up, but we can also be a wonderful model, as in, this is how we choose.

ANNA: Absolutely. So, check out the show notes for things we’ve mentioned in the episode, the episode transcript, and today’s questions. We’d love to hear what you discover. You can share your thoughts on a comment on the website or our episode post on Instagram @LivingJoyfullyPodcast. You’ll find that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being here with us, and we’ll see you next time.

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about revitalizing our nests. Our homes are such an important part of our unschooling lives. We can get open and curious and creatively find ways to make the spaces in our home fit the individual people in our family. After all, people are different! We share examples from our own lives as well as offer food for thought as you reimagine your own home with your unique family in mind.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello, everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both.

And today we’re going to be talking about revitalizing our nest, which was a very fun topic of conversation on the Network a while back. I’m really excited to dive into that. But first, I wanted to encourage you to check out the Living Joyfully Shop where you can find Pam’s books and unschooling courses such as Validation, Navigating Conflict, and Four Pillars of Unschooling, a variety of coaching options, as well as information about joining the Living Joyfully Network.

The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com. And now, Pam, would you like to get us started with our conversation? 

PAM: Yes, yes, yes, I would. I love the lens of revitalizing our nest and maybe even more for those of us who are right now in the depth of winter.

We are at -19 Celsius right now. So, we may be cocooning a bit more inside our nest during this season. As I was thinking about it, one of the biggest shifts for me around this idea was actually realizing that the focus of this nesting wasn’t to make our home into my version of perfect, but that what I actually wanted to do was make our nest inviting and enjoyable for each person in our family.

And all together now, everyone, people are different. So what makes a room inviting for one person may truly be overwhelming to another. It’s not really about making every room work for everyone, but making different spaces that have maybe different atmospheres and different functions. So overall, everyone has a handful of spaces that they love to be in and do the things that they love to do. 

And as I was thinking about it, one of the memories that jumped out at me was just remembering how freeing and exciting it was when I first realized that what was called the dining room didn’t need to actually have a fancy dining table and chairs.

When my kids were younger, I had that revelation and it became the computer room. It had two desks, two computers, and a comfy couch. It actually became a hub of our home rather than the ghost town space it was before. The whole world really did open up allowing us to really make our home our nest. Rather than feeling weighed down by the obligation to make it look a certain way or that I had to take those messages or that when people came to visit, I needed to be able to show these various spaces off for that. Actually, we’re the ones living in it. What do we want it to be? And once that question and that kind of permission opened up to just make it the way we wanted it to be, oh my gosh. It has been fun ever since.

ANNA: That was definitely something I wanted to talk about too, because I think, again, we have these kinds of conventional ideas of what the spaces are used for. But wow. When you can throw that out, it really helps because, we had, I don’t even know if it’s called this everywhere, but a formal living room.

When you first come into the house, it’s this kind of small room to the side. I don’t know, in the old days, I guess you would entertain people there, but we made that the playroom, we called it the front room. It was right when you walked in the house, so everybody saw it and it was often covered with toys. It was so interesting because there was a part of me that was like, Ugh. And then really overwhelmingly the response was, what a cool room, or look at how you’re using that space, or oh my gosh, you can tell they have fun in there, you know? I think it opened up for other people that we can just look at the space and really make it our own.

And I think to that end, I like that idea of destinations and so even if you have a smaller space, it can be a nook in a room or a nook in a hall that you could create and throw a beanbag down or something else, like little spots that, depending on what that person needs you have a space.

Do they need quiet? Do they need stimulation? Do they need the TV? Do they need it to be dark? Really thinking about how you use the space, how your days flow, what the different people like and enjoy doing. I think it can be so valuable because we’re all so different.

We do want this space to serve all of us. And, like you said, we can’t make every room fit every person, but thinking along the lines of, we have a blank canvas of whatever the entire house is, what can we do? We co-slept for a very long time, so it was kind of a sleeping room and then we could utilize the other bedrooms that didn’t have beds for a period of time as more, play areas and places to store stuff.

And so it was just really interesting to open all of that up and think what do we need? What do the four of us need in this space to do, because we’re here all the time. Not all the time, we’re out about, but you know what I mean. We were there every day. And like you said, the visitor that comes periodically, once every few months is not the person I need to be catering to.

ERIKA: I’ve seen the same thing happen. In our house, we have a relatively small space for the four of us. And so, over time it’s taken creativity and just thinking outside the box. How do we make this work for what we need right now? And we had the same thing, where in the beginning when we were co-sleeping.

One bedroom was perfect because then we had only one room that had all that bed space taking up the whole room. That was so great because then I had another room that we called the toy room and that was just for playing with toys and then another room that was an office. In the beginning, it had the TV and everything was in there too.

And so, if someone, a stranger were to come into our house, it’s like, what is this? But for us, it made so much sense, especially in those young days. Then I remember a few years ago, I guess it’s more than a few at this point, when we just needed more space, the kids were getting bigger. We changed our bedroom to the master bedroom. So then it’s the bigger room for sleeping, smaller room for the office. But they still weren’t ready to sleep in their own rooms yet, so I’m like, why? We don’t need to waste that space on beds if they’re not going to be used. So, we just put more beds together in the big room and still had space for the toy room and the office.

And then now at this point, when they really do want their own room, we transformed those two rooms into their own bedrooms. And we have our bedroom, which now functions as an office as well. And so, it really was all these really major shifts that took a lot of creativity and thinking and planning.

But I think one of the things to realize about this kind of thinking about our homes is you are not going to be able to find a solution that will last forever because everyone’s always growing and changing, including us as adults, what we’re interested in doing, what kind of phase we’re in, what kind of spaces we need.

And so, just thinking of it in a really open way. I think it can be really fun. I don’t have to solve every problem for the rest of our lives with my planning, but what would really help us right now, to have what we need to be comfortable, One big thing that I’ve always liked since we had kids was to not have a coffee table in front of the couch, which most houses you go into have the coffee table in front of the couch.

But for me, having the open floor where kids would just run out and crash on the floor, lay out all their toys on the floor. Having that big floor space was so valuable. And so we still have a table, but it’s to the side. We can pull it in as needed. But just little things like that.

When you’re seeing and thinking about, how does my family actually use the house? What makes it more kid friendly or functional? That’s not even to mention all of our different ways of being. Who likes things more organized, who likes to see everything out? And so just kind of taking all of our individual personalities into account and the stages that we’re in, if it’s the little kids who want all that open space to run, that’s a different phase than the kid who wants the table to be working on Legos all day.

PAM: Yes. The Lego table! That definitely had a season. I built it and put edges on it. So that the Lego wouldn’t fall. And I think what I love about using the revitalizing our nest lens is just what you were talking about, Erika. It’s not that, we’re going to revitalize and then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Figure it out, plan it out, do it. It’s more about noticing, are there things that somebody’s getting out and needing to set up regularly? Is there a way we can make, uh, I love the destination idea, Anna. Like make a destination for them so it’s super easy for them to slide in and slide out of an activity.

And that it’s all ages. It’s the same for adults. If we have a little something that brings us joy, that’s a little touch of self care. Like let’s make a little destination or a little spot where it’s easier for us to slide into, especially when the kids are younger and we can only catch a few minutes here, a few minutes there, maybe easily interrupted, et cetera.

So that just makes it easier for us as well. That is something, I love the point that it’s not something that ends either. I still love revitalizing little spaces. My room right here has kind of been my office, I prefer to call it my studio, but now two kitties have entered our lives and now it’s also the kitten home.

Things are always migrating and changing. People are coming, people are staying, people are going. It’s such a helpful lens to just keep at the back of my mind, just to keep our space working for us. Just to notice, oh, like this is feeling a little stagnant. This space isn’t feeling inviting anymore. Nobody’s been to this little destination corner in a while. Nobody’s interested in that anymore. What else could we make it? How could we transform that to be a little bit more inviting? 

So many pieces to consider, not only personalities but we can think of creating an atmosphere. Lighting and sound is something that we consider very often when we’re trying to cultivate a welcoming space for someone. I’ve got a little speaker right here. That I can just put some background noise on, or maybe a little bit of music, whatever works for the person.

Where do you want to sink into and how can we help do that? It helps us learn a little bit more about each other, how we grow and change. Ah, that’s not so interesting anymore. Let’s try this. The lighting is the same. Even smells. Oh, I don’t have it. I had a little essential oil very nearby yesterday.

I was like, oh, that is so nice. Sniff, sniff. All those pieces are part of revitalizing our nest, considering ourselves and every member of the family so that they too have spaces that feel welcoming, that feel like they were made for them, that fit them like a glove for whatever particular activity that they’re interested in doing in the moment.

That make sense? 

ANNA: Yeah, for sure. And I think it’s interesting because a couple things are coming to mind, so I’ll see if I can keep track of them.  That creativity right, of what’s happening, what do we need? But the little niceties, let’s get a new fluffy blanket. Let’s do things that just kind of make the space pop or fun.

And when you were talking, it reminded me of a very old thread on the network called Paints Out. Where we talked about having things accessible. And what reminded me was when you said as adults too, what’s our season and what’s happening for us? And I just remember, I played the guitar at the time, having the guitar out in a stand that I could just easily pick it up.

 And then having a spot where when they were in an art phase, it was super easy to clean, easy to get out, it kind of had its own space. And then like you said, we might notice, you know what, that’s kind of languishing. We don’t have to throw the paints out, but maybe we utilize that space as something else.

Maybe we’re doing a little bit more with games or it’s a puzzle table or it ends up turning into something else. And so keeping an eye on that. I always found that kind of fun. Because I do like the organizational project and so. It was fun to think about what we are into now. And like you said, it’s such a connecting activity because we’re really looking at them.

We’re really in tune with how their day is flowing and what’s happening for them and for ourselves. What do I like to do? Oh, I like to have some kind of peaceful, neat space where I can have my Rasa in the morning or when I’m checking emails. So then, okay, what? How can I create that for myself?

And then what do they do when they get up and what does that look like? I think that’s really fun to think about because sometimes when we’re trying to keep everything neat or organized, it’s all put away and it’s kind of out of sight out of mind. So it was fun to find creative ways that met my need for some order, and for accessibility.

I think that can be a lot of fun. And, also just to take the destination piece. Outside, if you happen to have any kind of outside space, whether it’s small or large, it was fun for us to think about, oh, a sandbox or a water table. We lived in a more temperate climate, so we could be outside a lot of the year.

And so, having those little destinations again made it easy to move towards something. I found with younger kids being outside helped us if things were getting a little dicey inside. And having those destinations to move us towards something, was so helpful. And so I like that idea of we have things to move towards, whether it’s inside the house or out of the house.

That helps us transition. If we’re having a little funky stuff and people are getting grumpy and maybe we need a snack, let’s all go do this. And we have that space that’s kind of carved out for us to have snacks or eat popsicles or whatever. I think it can be a really fun activity, a connecting activity to figure out how we wanna use the space that we have.

ERIKA: Yeah, I had actually written down “paints out” too. That’s funny that we both thought of it. So, this conversation on the network about paints out was so great because it started with the idea of this little toddler having her easel, paper and paints just ready all the time and the mom was noticing how much more painting was happening and then the question became, what are we doing as adults to have our activities ready to go? 

I really do love that and it’s something else to think about for each member of the family. What are the things that you have to just keep taking out again and again and is there a way to make it more accessible? Are there things that you know that your kids are loving to do but they don’t think of it because everything’s always put away. Being creative and brainstorming about how to have those things be more accessible. 

And then I was thinking, as far as the organization goes, with our small space, I always wanted to have things have a place to go so it felt like we could clean it up and it will be organized and we’ll know where to find everything.

And so we used a lot of these medium-sized plastic bins that are clear, that have locking lids on them and we put labels on them. And so it made cleaning up toys really easy. But it also meant that when the kids are looking at their shelves, they see their things. And that helps them with the inspiration of, what do I want to play with today?

It was easy for them too. They’re not huge bins, so they could just take things in and out. We used those for almost everything. And then some of  the bigger toys were in fabric bins. And so, just thinking about what are the things that you would like for your kids to have easy access to, putting kid dishes on a low open shelf.

The things where they keep asking to get to them. If you have the kid dishes up in a cabinet, then every time they want water, they’re having to ask for help. That would be one little clue. Maybe I can make this easier on everyone by having it more accessible at a place that they could reach. Putting their snacks at a low level, things like that.

Noticing if there are things I keep reaching for when I’m doing something. If I’m doing my crafting at the living room coffee table, and every time I need scissors, I have to go over to my office to grab the scissors and bring them back out. Okay, maybe I need scissors to be in this station. So it’s just little things like that, noticing what are those things that I have to keep going to get or that the kids keep asking me to get this thing.

Those might be the little places to try to get creative. I was thinking also in our living room, since I do like that open floor, we’ve really liked having a folding table that we can take out for things like games and puzzles and Lego and stuff, that we could put it away when we’re done and still have that space. But have table space when we need it. So just little hacks like that.

PAM: Yes. I love looking for clues as in, what do I keep getting asked for? If you’re someone who loves organization and efficiency, you can use that lens as part of figuring out how it might be helpful to revitalize your nest because when our kids have that ability to reach things and get things and do the things, that gives them a sense of agency and control over their days that they’re not always being stopped and having to go ask for this and that. I think that is just a super helpful lens when you’re looking at things.

And then the scissors thing, that is something I’ve been hearing lately and kind of considering, maybe I want two or three of certain things to be in those spots where I need them. Because I am easily distracted and if I have to go to another room to get scissors, chances are it’ll be 30 minutes before I get back to where I started and I will not have the scissors.

And I’ll go, that’s why I got up! That was it. Scissors. I’m back on track now. So, yes, I find that just so fun, to use those lenses to look at our days and to see how we can set up our days to flow, because that is just more fun. And when we can stay in our flow of what we’re doing. That’s super fun too.

ANNA: It’s funny with things like scissors though, because they’re not that expensive and yet we’re thinking, oh, do we really need more. Yes, get scissors or things that you notice you’re using a lot. Get the extra pens, get the extra set of whatever if you can, because a lot of times we’re just not thinking how disruptive it is to go get things.

And especially if you have somebody that gets distracted. Who knows what’s going to happen by the time they get back. I love the snack example too. I remember during another thread on the network, we had some really cool pictures of people’s spaces and how they did snacks and specific snack areas and how it solved problems like, opening the refrigerator and felt like it was open too long and not knowing what things were for dinner or whatever, but having specific areas and specific bins and just made it so accessible and easy. 

And just think of the areas that rub, I feel like in the last few pod podcasts we talked about, looking at where does it rub? And then okay, what’s happening there? Where’s the rub coming from and is there a solution that might make that easier? Even if it’s outside the box, even if it’s adding an extra little fridge somewhere or something that you might not think of normally.

So I really love that. And another thing I wanted to bring to mind is the idea of preferences, because we all have preferences, right? We talked about how we’re all different, and these preferences,  maybe for clean spaces or a clean countertop, or maybe it’s to have everything out. I think sometimes so much of what we talk about with people are different is just don’t take someone else’s personality personally. 

Because that’s where we go awry. And when we can recognize that those preferences are often rooted in what actually soothes us, what works for our brain, what makes sense for us to stay regulated, then we’re not judging that they want it differently than we do.

We’re actually able to have a conversation about, okay, you like to see everything out. I need a clean table that calms my brain when I see that surface. What can we do? Then we get creative to meet everybody’s needs. And again, every particular space in a house may not meet everybody’s needs.

But for me, if I had a spot that I could keep organized, if I was starting to feel dysregulated, I could move to that space and have all my calming tools there. And they had their space to play and do, even if it was right next to me, it was still okay. So, it’s not even about a massive amount of space, it’s more just about recognizing that each of those preferences and desires are valid and that it’s important to understand because it’s part of how we understand our brain. How we want to move through the world and what works for us. 

And I think if we have spaces that end up creating dysregulation, we may not even realize that that’s what the problem is. We just think, we’re having behavior problems, or we’re just not getting along. Or there’s so much fighting. But maybe there’s actually some root causes and we can figure out about what helps us feel good in the space. 

I just wanted to bring that piece. And whether we’re dealing with neurodiversity or neurotypical, I think we all have preferences and we all have different brains that need different things.

ERIKA: Yeah, and like you both were saying earlier, it’s just such a good opportunity to learn more about ourselves and to learn more about our family members. And I feel like once you bring them in on these kinds of conversations about how different things feel to them, you just can learn so much about the differences of each person.

I remember commenting or noticing with the kids, it feels like when the living room’s just this open canvas that you get a burst of inspiration and come up with all kinds of ideas of things to play. And so when I would notice that everything’s getting a little messy and crowded and kids seem to not really know what to do, I could suggest, should we just clean everything up?

And then maybe you’ll have that feeling of a new idea of what I could bring into this space. But then, realizing that for me, it might feel better to have everything behind a cabinet door, but if the kids aren’t seeing their things and then not getting inspired to play with their toys, they’re missing out on so much fun and all of their interests by me trying to tuck everything away.

And so that’s why it was important to keep that balance between, we can put it away, but I want you to still be able to see what you have. It also reminded me of when they were little, I heard the advice about putting some things in storage and giving them one type of thing at a time..

But then I realized that my kids love combining all the things. I would’ve missed out on so much creativity if I was giving them a limited set of things to pull from. And so for me, it was worth it to have more to clean up for them to be able to combine the cars with the animals, with the characters. Maya loved packing up all the toys in bags, mixing them all together. 

Each bag will have one of everything, which is just so hard to put everything back away, but so fun for her in that moment and so, realizing even now she says, the more things in my field of view the better. I just love having an abundance of stuff. And so even adults, some adults are maximalist and some adults are minimalists. And learning those differences has been really fun. 

PAM: Yeah. And everything in between. But that brought back some memories. Erika, I love that, that clean canvas piece. I do remember sometimes when they had a big play area and we had the cupboard under the stairs that we had put shelves in and sorted in smaller bins, the different kinds of toys and things.

That was one of the things that they loved. They loved mixing all the things and all the excitement when I said, Hey, you know, after you guys go to bed tonight, do you want me to just clean up and reorganize downstairs and it’ll be nice and fresh in the morning? And they’d say, sure. Oh my gosh. They were just so excited in the morning to come down.

And that was a big piece. Reorganizing the things into their bins because now they knew where to find that car or that character. But things were now sorted and easier to find rather than trying to look through the whole room and seeing where the last time they had put it into a scene or something.

That was also a very fun gift for them and helping them clean and organize their rooms and just seeing how they want to put all this stuff together, or maybe they want their collection of this out so they can see all of the pieces. It’s creativity, learning about each other. There is really no downside to using this lens of creating a nest. Cultivating a nest that works for the people in the family, right? 

ANNA: I love it.

ERIKA: Yeah, so this has been a lot of fun. I just love this topic and we hope you enjoyed our conversation as well and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey.

And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It is such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on living joyfully shop.com, and we all hope to meet you there.

So thanks for listening and we will see you next time. Bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about personal hygiene.

Questions and concerns about hygiene come up regularly in parenting circles and, in unschooling communities, this topic can sometimes trigger fear. We wanted to dive into personal hygiene to address some of the most common areas that parents mention and talk about how we can move through challenges or fears while still staying connected to our kids.

This was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello! I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. 

Today we are diving into another unschooling stumbling block, personal hygiene, and I think this will be a fun one to discuss. But before we dive in, we want to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is so much value in doing this deep, personal work that the unschooling journey asks of us in community, because while everyone’s journey is absolutely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges.

For example, like navigating personal hygiene with our kids, and that is where the power of community shines. So to learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to living joyfully shop.com and click on community in the menu. And now, Anna, would you like to get us started? 

ANNA: I would. So, this is one of those topics that comes up all the time. And I’m guessing it happens because it is kind of layered, right? And we have all of these outside voices at play, and I think we can also come into it, into parenting, into these beliefs with some preconceived notions about what is appropriate personal hygiene, what it is supposed to look like.

But not surprisingly, I am going to say that people are different. And what’s really cool about that related to this topic that we’re talking about, personal hygiene, is that you can find validation for just about any choice that you make out there, because we have the bathe everyday people. We have the bathe once a week people, we have people who wash their hair every time and others who don’t, and some that don’t ever use shampoo on their hair.

And then thinking about how it plays out differently in different cultures and around the world, I think that allows us to shut out the outside noise and tune into the person in front of us to actually find something that works and feels good to them and to us. Because I feel, just from all the many years of talking with unschooling families and just families in general that are not unschooling – I think most children go through an aversion to bathing season.

For some it can be really intense and there can be some serious sensory pieces involved that just makes bathing dysregulating and really feel scary and hard. And for others it just isn’t a priority because they’re having too much fun doing something else. And then I know lots who love their nightly bath and it’s not a big deal. And teeth brushing is not a problem. And it just  works smoothly for them. So I think the big takeaway, and you know, we’re gonna dive into this, but I think it’s just knowing that there’s no one way to approach hygiene.

And so it really can leave space for us to find something that works for all of us. And I’ll talk a little bit more about my piece of that too, because I think that’s the key. It has to work for all of us, it has to feel comfortable for everybody in the family. And so when we can get creative and let go of that outside noise, that’s where it doesn’t have the weight.

ERIKA: Yeah, it is a big topic and it does come up so much, and I think it’s because there’s just so much fear in this topic. For adults and parents, because as parents we’re thinking, this is our responsibility. This is very important. This is, their lives are at stake. It could feel like this very high stakes area, along with maybe food.

These are the things that we think, this is very important. Right? Very important. But I think as we are feeling those feelings and thinking in that way, we have to start trying to see like how, I know you mentioned this all the time, Anna, about where the messages are coming from because I think it may be that we have our own personal fears about things that are hygiene related, but I bet a lot of it is coming from, What are people going to think about how my child’s hair is looking today? Or what are people going to think if I walk outside and they’re like this? Maybe it’s the judgment of our relatives. Maybe it’s just the judgment of strangers on the street. The fear of judgment of others can be really huge in this area.

And so then, like we were talking about in the last episode, that tunnel vision sets in, we’re not able to be open and curious about it. We’re tunneled in on, but it’s supposed to look this way. I really need to make sure my kid does it in this way because this is what everyone says is the safe, correct way to handle hygiene.

And so I think if we can, bring some playful energy to our day, if we can do that with hygiene, it just will help so much with letting us notice all the different possibilities. And then we can also be open to hearing what our children are saying about what’s not working for them, about these different things, about the teeth brushing, about the hair brushing, all the different things that are involved in taking care of their physical body. They know how it’s feeling for them. But if we get stuck on, I have to make you do it in this way, then we’re not hearing what the actual needs that they have are about. What sensory part is not feeling good, what timing of it is not feeling good. 

Just thinking about brushing your teeth, there are so many different tools that are out there for brushing your teeth. It’s not just a toothbrush and toothpaste. There’s all different things. Once you can start getting creative about what doesn’t feel good about it: Is it the taste? Is it the texture? Is it taking too long?

There’s one saying it can brush your whole mouth in 10 seconds or something like that. It’s a whole mouth toothbrush. I have never tried that. But anyway, there are lots of possibilities if we can step out of the fear tunnel vision and into what are some other options here?

PAM: And I think you mentioned it’s just one of the biggest things when we first start thinking about it, or it was for me is recognizing, realizing that so many of the expectations that I had, that I was putting on my kids around this stuff were actually the result of expectations I was putting on myself to not feel judged by others.

If we just think, oh, it’s an at home day today, we don’t have to dress in these particular clothes. We can wear our pajamas. Just imagine what’s the difference between an at home and an outside day? That might be a great place just to start playing with it and playing with what expectations am I putting on myself that I need to do as a parent so that I’m not judged by other people.

For me, that was a big one, certainly at the beginning of the journey. And when I just continue to ask myself questions. We can put these expectations on us as adults as well, right? But we’re talking about our kids now, and these can be big things and they can cause so many rifts in our relationship and we can get that tunnel vision thinking we have to do it this one way.

And it feels like it takes like an hour. It takes an hour to get them dressed in the morning, takes an hour to brush their teeth at night, because it’s just this constant rub and trying to convince them. And I think that can be another great clue if we find ourselves trying to convince our kids, whether it’s a shower or toothbrushing, or to finish their plate or to wear these clothes.

When we find ourselves trying to convince them, those rubs are probably great places to start. And so yeah. Start to recognize, is that an expectation I’m holding? Why am I holding that expectation?

Your conversation, Anna, about the different cultures, how you can find people recommending and saying just about anything. They’re all different. So really can be what actually works for us instead of us fitting into a thing or a way of doing a thing.

What way actually works for us and helps us? Play around with different shampoos, dry hair, shampoos, different toothpaste, different toothbrushes, some sort of funky ten second full mouth brushing.

ANNA:  I know, I’m curious about that now. We’re going to look it up. 

What really struck me was something you said, Erika, just about the fear piece. This comes up a lot in a place like the network. So, this is a little plug for the network too, because someone will come with something that feels really weighty about personal hygiene, whether it’s a toothbrushing or knotted hair. With no idea what to do, “They don’t want to ever bathe!”.

And you can feel the weight, right? You can feel the fear, you can feel, they just feel so stuck. Because I think with fear, it’s the opposite of creativity, right? It completely shuts that down. We’re just so stuck. Stuck is the word that keeps coming to mind.

But what’s really cool about those threads is that then you’ll see this boom, boom, boom of people saying all the creative ways that they’ve fixed the hair, done the thing, made toothbrushing fun, did this or that, and then you feel the lightness come to that person. It’s not that any one of the answers are necessarily the right answer for their family, but the block is gone.

The fear is lifted. Oh, other people have to deal with this. Oh, there are lots of different ways to look at this problem and we can start getting creative. I feel like this relates to the podcast a couple weeks ago about being playful and, and for me it’s like feeling that in your body if you are feeling stuck.

It’s not going to go well, when we feel stuck. Just step away from the problem. If you’re feeling that in your body, step away and figure out how to lighten your energy. Bring some support to yourself. If you’re feeling concerned or worried, talk to someone else. And that’s why it’s nice to be able to talk to people that may also be in a similar situation, because then you’re going to get interesting, creative ideas that may actually work for your family.

But I think the big gift of it is just opening it up and realizing there are so many different ways to tackle this one problem that I thought there was only one way to get through it. And that one way is usually either something we’ve gotten from our family or we’ve read something that’s maybe a bit more dogmatic about washing or not washing.

Because you’re so right, Pam. There are a whole host of people that are like, don’t wash. You’re taking stuff off your skin. That’s really beneficial, and then there’s the other people that are like germs! We have to wash everything and so we can let all of that go and find what works for us and really tune into our kids.

I love that you said that, Erika, because they have things to share, and while baths may be a no-go, what if it is just for one small thing? I don’t like the temperature of the water, or I don’t like how it feels slippery on the bottom. We had that at some point. Just put a towel down. Yes, it gets wet and it’s messy, but if that feels better to them or that might feel worse, or they don’t, maybe like this itchy part, and then we can see the bath’s not the problem.

It was this other little thing that I wasn’t even hearing because I was just thinking we’ve got to do this. And so I love that. Slow it down, tune in and then the creativity comes and we learn, we learn so much more about each other.

ERIKA: I love that slow down part too. Because it’s whenever I’m getting into either trying to rush through or I’m stuck in that fear place, that’s when these things don’t work well.

Basically this is feeling like part two of the last podcast of bringing a playful energy and that is how this stuff gets easier. And, right, checking in with the people on the network about all of these topics is so incredible because anything that feels like this gigantic weight, scariest thing that we’ve ever been through, you type it on there and it’s like, oh yeah, my kids went through that phase as well.

And when you were talking about the kids’ needs again that just brought up that it could be things that aren’t even at all related to the hygiene thing itself. And so that’s why I think just getting completely, open, playful, open and curious mindset is so important.

Because it really could just be, I don’t like the way that you do this particular part of it. I don’t like how we are trying to brush my teeth right after having a drink or the drink doesn’t, water doesn’t taste good after I brush my teeth, so I need to drink first.

It could be just a million different possibilities of what are the things that are bothering them about these particular behaviors that we’re trying to make happen? We are just always learning more about our differences and so with my kids, I like to expand the possibilities and talk about it as in, some people like to do it this way, and I’ve heard that some people do this and I’ve heard that some people do this. Looking at all the different possibilities of what different people do might give them an idea of, okay, like I don’t like the way that mommy does it herself, but here are some other people who are doing things differently.

Just widening our view of what’s possible.

PAM: Yeah, that’s so helpful. And I think going back to that weight that we can feel when I can’t see anything, any possibility for moving forward, but I need to make this thing happen. I think it can often be because we are projecting that into the future.

They’re having a hard time. I can’t get them to brush their teeth the way I want them to brush their teeth now, and that’s just going to be this way forever. I have to solve it today or we’re never going to do it again. How are they going to get a job? They like to wear their pajamas all day.

So being able to release that weight and remembering that people change. This is a season, like don’t sweat the small stuff. Phrasing, like these are just little pieces. Instead of looking at  this day, look at a week, look at a month. Look back at previous seasons. Oh, I remember when they used to do this thing and I thought they would just do it forever, and now I noticed they hardly ever do it anymore. Sometimes looking back to recognize that things often move seasonally, that we grow and change, can help us from getting locked into I need to solve this thing right now, which takes away the playfulness, takes away the seeing other possibilities. Oh, some people do this, some people do this, some people do this. And you know, you might find something that’s totally uniquely you inside that whole spectrum of possibilities. 

So yeah, I think just finding the way that works for you to release the weight around it. That doesn’t put so much pressure on it. It can just be so super helpful in just bringing, again, like we were talking about last time, the creativity to it. Right? And that’s where you can find their need. That’s where you’re now more open to having conversations and finding out what’s going on and where you can actually get playful and creative.

ANNA: Right, because it’s in that place again that we’re going to learn more and I think a piece that we’ve all touched on, but it’s just trusting there’s something there. There’s something there that is bothering them or isn’t working. And I think we can get stuck in, especially if we’re in that needing to check the box and get through the day mode.

When we have that more hurried energy, we can just feel like they are literally trying to thwart us. They’re just trying to do this thing to make my life terrible. When I find myself in that space, I’m like, okay, slow down, slow down. What’s happening? The world is not out to get me.

What can I do? And then again, like you said, Erika, it can be the tiniest thing that’s not even related, and I’m like, we can fix that. We can change that. But when I just have this frustrated energy of, we just have to do that, and I’m pushing, pushing, pushing. They don’t even want to speak up about what the thing is because, I don’t seem open to it.

I don’t seem open to really hearing and understanding what’s happening for them. And when we think of, sometimes I think it’s helpful to think about us as adults. We have these little quirky things that we do, we’ve all found our way that works for us with our hair or with our hygiene, teeth, or whatever the thing is.

And they’re discovering that for themselves and it’s going to be different for them. To give space and to honor that. I don’t know. Sometimes when we can see it in ourselves, it’s easier to go. Yeah, it makes sense that they’re going to have these particular things that they have to find and work through.

And, again, just being open to, tags feel bad to some people. And I know with my oldest, she’d always wanted to wear the softest pants and no tags and no nothing. I mean, really until she was a teen, I thought she’d always wear that. 

The pajama comment reminded me, Pam, because we just kind of went with clothes that were like pajamas. They were super soft, super comfortable because that’s what helped her nervous system be able to handle things. And then she became a teenager and wanted to wear jeans and she was fine. And it switched. And I’m like, okay. And even if she never had, it wouldn’t matter, she was listening to her body, she was learning what helped her feel better in different situations.

And that’s kind of cool, right? So, if I can get out of my head and step back and watch it, then I can enjoy this process of this human finding, what works for them in the world.

ERIKA: I’m trusting that they have the information about themselves and we can be interested in that. 

And I was thinking too, how narration might be something nice to do in this area as well. Because I think a lot of times it’s this top down giving orders in the area of hygiene. But if it could be more like, you know, something I’ve noticed about myself is when I’m more stressed out, I get stinkier armpits. Is that something weird or interesting? And so, just talking about hygiene things like, my teeth feel so nice and clean after I brush them at night or whatever. Just anything that’s my experience of my own hygiene practices. Then it starts to get them to think about how it feels to them. What do I like about it, how do I feel after I take a shower, have a bath or whatever. And so, I think it’s kind of related to sharing other people’s ideas too. But I think especially just for me, rather than talking about I think you should do this, I could say, well, I do this because then I feel like this.

PAM: Yeah. And I think that is such a great place to just start asking ourselves some questions too, like is it maybe that we are trying to direct them to take care of hygiene the way that we do it? Or are there some places that we’re kind of disappointed in ourselves and we have this perfect idea of, we wish we could meet and so we’ll get our kids to at least meet it?

Because then they won’t have the same problem that we have with, oh damn, I wish I had another, a shower today. So, to be able to even think about it as narrating. Has us thinking about it and sometimes maybe giving ourselves more grace around it and recognizing that, again, it’s a journey. Maybe what I’m doing right now is working for me, and then something switches up someday and I change up.

How I process hygiene for myself, et cetera. So understanding and seeing how that has changed for us over time can also help us open it up for our kids as well, and really help them find what works for them versus whatever story works for us. Or that we wish worked for us, and then trying to translate that and get them to follow it. Just recognizing the challenge of that in the whole, people are a different world. 

ANNA: Yeah and the stinky armpits reminded me that sometimes it’s actually, when we’re trying to find a mutually agreeable solution, there are issues, right? So I am hypersensitive to smell. And there was a teen, early teen period where I was like, this is very hard for me to have stinky people that are coming around.

But instead of, you need to do this, you need to do that, it was that narration. I know, I’m so sensitive to smell. This is hard for me right now. What can we figure out. Then they can recognize that’s about me and what’s happening for me. Versus there’s something wrong, me pointing the finger. And so it’s okay to have conversations with those “I” messages about what is feeling good or what’s working or what’s hard. And you know, I also had girls that had long hair and I found it stressful to be combing their hair if they weren’t doing it. It was getting knotted and I could express, this is feeling stressful for me. What can we do? I want to support you and what you want your hair to like, but then you’re coming to me telling me to brush it. So it was, how do we all work in this together?

And that’s where the conversations come. And when you bring that lighter, playful energy to it, nobody’s left feeling bad about it. It’s more just like, okay, how do we solve this so that it feels okay? And I think that’s why we talk so much about checking that energy. So you can see it’s kind of this layered process of peeling away the external voices, really tuning in and understanding about each other and what’s happening so we can figure out what’s actually rubbing.

And then it’s adding some narration about our process and then it’s conversations about are there solutions we can come up with that feel good to everybody? But you can’t rush it. You kind of have to do all the layers, so that you can get down to a light energy and engage in conversation that doesn’t have weight to it.

ERIKA: Right. Not the fear-based place, but the curious place. Because I’m thinking even just with hair, do you like having long hair or has it just gotten long and we haven’t talked about it? You know? And so finding out, is long hair important to you? Does it bother you when it’s getting all tangled like that?

Just giving the information that trimming it can sometimes make it easier to get some of those end tangles out. We could trim off some tangles. They’re not born knowing all the possibilities of things. And so I think that’s just part of our bringing that creativity and ideas to them, but without the “right answer”, without the agenda and the fear.

Then there’s tons of possibilities.

PAM: And then when you can get to that spot where it’s fun to brainstorm possibilities and sharing that without the weight, without the fear, but this is a possibility. This is a possibility. Anyway, thank you so much to both of you.

That was a very fun and interesting conversation, and I hope people found it useful. And remember we’ve mentioned the Living Joyfully Network a few times in this call because these are very, typical, normal kinds of conversations and challenges to run into. You can join us there to dive deeper into any of these kinds of everyday topics.

And we will be very excited to welcome you! Just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Bye bye!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore bringing a playful energy to our days. Shifting to a playful energy can be helpful when we’re feeling stuck, with spinning thoughts, worrying about the future, or focused on external expectations. We can cultivate a lightness and curiosity that helps us get creative and come up with many possibilities to help us face the situations in front of us. Play is also the natural way that children process their lives. So, bringing a playful energy into our days can help us connect with our kids, as well!

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello, everyone! I am Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello! 

PAM AND ERIKA: Hi! 

ANNA: Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop, where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey, and you can find a link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.

Today we’re going to be talking about bringing a playful energy to our days, and I don’t know, I think this is going to be a lot of fun. So, Erika, do you want to get us started?

ERIKA: I do! And Happy New Year to everyone! Yes. I just love this time of year and how it can really inspire me to bring a bit more intention into my daily routine. I really feel like this idea, bringing a playful energy to our days, could be such a fun intention to explore. And, Pam, you’ve certainly encouraged me through this podcast over the years to play with ideas and to play with possibilities. And getting open and curious often feels like being playful.

And so, I did want to start out just by reminding us all that people are different, and one person’s definition of bringing a playful energy to our days is going to look different from another. And so, pretend play, being silly, exploring characters, getting right in there with our little kids in their imaginary worlds can come really easily to some parents and it’s not easy for others. And that’s okay, because we’re not talking about one right way or one definition of being playful. And so, I’m excited to see how many different areas we’ll end up talking about today. 

But for me, bringing a playful energy means really lightening up my own energy about something. So, when I get bogged down by outside expectations or by fears about the future or anything like that, I can get into that tunnel vision mode, which is the opposite of having a playful energy. And so, when I start thinking about all the things that have to happen or what should be happening or what I have to do and what the kids should be doing, that’s just not a light place to be. And so, being open and curious, remembering that there’s not one right way for things to happen, bringing a more playful approach to my days just lightens me up and I can see more possibilities. I can connect more easily with the people around me. I can think, huh, I wonder what’s going to happen next. Or, I wonder what we could do here. Let’s just try something. And that is this light energy that can help me move forward.

Whereas the heavy energy of, we have to do this and I have to figure out the right way to do this, feels like it’s weighing me down and honestly can make me super grumpy. And that’s not even to mention how bringing playfulness into our days can help make things so much smoother and more fun for our kids.

PAM: I am really excited to talk about this. And I think that was one of the things that really brought this top of mind for me, having talked about it for years now, because I found it so helpful for shifting my energy and my perspective and bringing me into the moment. When I’m future-focused and trying to figure all the things out, it just brought me back to my kids.

And then from there, I learned how helpful it was even for me when I’m trying to process and move through my own things because, for me, the shift from having to figure everything out, I just get so very tunneled vision to try and find that one right answer, even if I’m not telling myself there’s one right answer for all humanity. Even trying to find one right answer that works for me can be very tunneling. I’m just so quickly throwing things out. Nope, nope, not that, not that, not that boom, boom, boom. Whereas when I can shift to that playfulness, I can be more open and curious about the thing.

Everything doesn’t look like a no to me. It’s like, oh, I wonder? Or, what if? Or, how might that unfold? I hadn’t even thought of that! And that playfulness, too, lets me bring more things to my kids, to my partner. It’s like looking for a little bit more input and then I start sharing a little bit more, and then it doesn’t look as dire as it originally was for myself.

And, like you said, alongside all the cool things that playfully engaging with my kids brings. That’s a whole other part of this conversation, but we’ll start with how it feels for us. 

ANNA: Yeah. That’s definitely where I want to start. I do want to acknowledge what Erika said, too, about people are different. Pretend play did not come easy for me. So, I do think when people hear this, they’re like, but what if I’m not that playful person that looks like X? I think we will talk about that a little bit. 

But really what I’m more interested in and what resonated for me about this topic was exactly what we’re talking about, how to shift our energy. And for me, I remember just trying to be mindful about if it felt like a difficult day, it felt like something, it’s that quick check-in with my body, like, whoa, I’m feeling a lot of weight. I feel a lot of heaviness. Something’s happening. And then I can just go, wait a minute, where’s that coming from? Look outside a little bit. And then bring in that playful energy.

And I think our kids lead the way. I think if we turn to them, they’re most likely laughing or playing or doing something or enjoying something or can easily be tickled if we just bring in some fun energy, especially with little kids.

And so, I think for me it was more just watching my energy, because I felt like my energy really impacted the whole house. And so, if I was carrying a lot of weight about something and maybe it was even unrelated to the kids, it was still helpful for me to check in with that and go, whoa, that thing is impacting the way I’m interacting with the people in my life. So, I would like to either set that aside so I can have some special time to think about it or address it. But then how do I lean back into the joy of having little kids? 

And I think we get tied up in, there’s a lot of work feeding people and doing all the things. We can get weighed down by that, but it’s pretty amazing when you look at these little beings that are telling us all kinds of things, hopping around the house, so excited about the tiniest things, discovering things for the first time. That really helped me get to that playful energy was just watching their wonder and excitement about things and then recognizing, okay, that’s a choice I can make. And so, that really would shift things for me.

ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. Kids are typically masters of play when they’re young. And so, it really can be so inspiring to see how they’re able to figure out a playful, fun way to do basically anything. And I like the idea that if we’re talking about bringing a playful energy to our days, it doesn’t mean now our days are just a hundred percent fun. It’s not that we have to turn everything into fun. But maybe starting to notice, what are the things that come up in a typical day for me where I start to close in and get stressed out. What are my triggers?

And so, for me, it could be trying to get somewhere at a certain time. I feel this sense of panic, and I’m sure that comes from childhood and having to be in certain places at certain times. But if I think about my life now, if I can logically walk myself through it, these are not emergency situations 99 times out of a hundred. And so, it really is my own trigger, based not on something that’s happening in this moment, but just based on fear from the past. And so, I think those are moments, if I can identify the triggering things for me, those are the best spots to start playing around with it.

What about when that’s starting to happen, I’m going to try to bring in a more playful energy about it? And reminding myself there’s plenty of time and all those soothing mantras. There is space to give this a little bit of room and to be more playful and curious about what could happen.

And so, as adults with a lot of background and baggage that we’re carrying with us to this point, there are a lot of these little triggers through the day. And it could be things like mess. It could be being too tired. It could be cooking. That’s a big one for me. Like, what am I going to serve everyone? And it can bring up panic. And so, those are the spots where I especially want to start thinking about, how could I be a little bit more playful in this area?

PAM: I love the idea of starting with triggers, because it’s like, okay, I’m going to be more playful. Where do you start with that? But where things rub or where things are triggered, those are great places to start. And I remember, for me, I usually start with some internal processing and figuring it out myself before I start trying to bring it to other people. Because I can’t really quite explain it yet or I don’t understand it. Like you were saying, so much of it is tools or reactions or things that we’ve built over the years to survive in various environments that we were in. 

Like you mentioned, when we were growing up, if getting out the door was something that was a stress on the family, I just internalized that and have that with me. But to take a little bit of time to say, oh, the environment we have now is different than the environment then. We are different people. I can understand those feelings and that reaction, but is that something that’s serving me now? And that’s where I can start. 

Now I can bring that more playful approach to thinking about other possibilities. And when I’m in a space where I understand enough that I’m open to possibilities, that’s a great time for me to start bringing it to others, because now I can actually hear it. I’m less putting it through that filter that I was owning and holding so tightly and more open to other possibilities. 

And so many times, having these conversations with my kids, even when they were younger, gave me so many new ideas. We talk so much about how capable kids are at all ages. Even if it seems like something that would never work, oh my gosh, just sitting with their idea for a second can make another connection and another connection. It’s like, oh yeah, maybe it’s the energy that came with their idea. We don’t have to take everything absolutely literally, but just to pull it all together. 

That’s why I love the brainstorming mindset, open and curious, see what happens. It doesn’t literally need to be something that comes up in that conversation, but those ideas connect to something else and something else and something else, and then we can see a new solution. And, for me, playfulness also means trying something and seeing what happens and then tweaking and trying something. 

When I say play with it or when I remind myself to play with, it’s not like, okay, I’m going to play with the ideas until I get that one right thing that seems like it’ll be perfect, and then I’m going to do that thing. And then if it doesn’t work perfectly, I’ve failed. That whole process failed. But no, if I can think of the process as something playful, it’s like, oh, that seems pretty cool. Let’s try that. See what happens. Then you’re learning another little piece about some aspect or constraint of the challenge and then tweak it a little bit more and tweak it a little bit more.

People are different and people are always changing. You’re not going to get like one right answer that’s going to be playful and fun and then we’re going to move on to something else with our lives. Now this is our life and this is how things are unfolding. So,bringing that playful energy to it helps me not put so many expectations on myself and all the people around me, right?

ANNA: Yeah, and I think I love starting with triggers. And I think starting with where things are rubbing. A big one for a lot of people are transitions. And what’s interesting about that, if you have a child that struggles with transitions, it can weigh on you, right? You’re going to the event, the playground, whatever it is, and you’re thinking, this is great and then we’re going to have this terrible transition. And that’s that piece I was talking about before. Watch when you’re carrying weight like that, because you’re creating the story before it’s even started.

And that doesn’t mean that you can click a switch and transitions are easy, but it opens us up to find different ways and to try different things. And it’s going to be different every time. But it can be literally playful, like piggyback rides to the car or we would do a race to tree or we’d find these fun things to move towards. Moving towards something versus, we have to leave this thing you’re loving so much and do nothing, which is kind of how it feels in their mind. But it’s like, okay, let’s move towards something that’s fun. 

But I think we get that playful creativity when we’re not carrying the weight of, this is going to be hard. This is so terrible. We’re so bad at this. You can just feel yourself shrinking in on, we’re going to make a scene and people are going to be worried about it, or whatever’s going to happen. And I think I talked about this somewhere recently, but just when we are calm in that space and bringing that lightness to it, even if our child is struggling in that moment, people are just calmed by that. They’re like, oh, you’ve got this. Yes, we’re a little bit upset about this transition, but you are still there engaging with your child. You are still there finding ways to move through it. 

So, it’s literal play sometimes, but it is that playing with, I’m going to try this this time. Okay, that didn’t work. We’re going to try this next time. But not putting a lot of weight on each of those decisions either, not putting weight on, this has to be the thing that works. Or when we find something that works, it has to work forever. It just doesn’t work that way. 

And so, I think it’s probably a culturally ingrained idea that we’re going to find the right answer and it’s going to work forever. That really limits us when we’re working with other people, because humans are different and challenging and have different things that mean things to them and different things they want to do, different ways they want to move through the world. So, I just love that check on my energy of, what am I bringing to this maybe historical, challenging bit of our life?

ERIKA: If you have a feeling of dread about certain things that happen in your life, those may also be good spots to look at or, or times when your child is always upset or that you’re always having conflict about a certain area. 

And I love the idea that play means, let’s try something different this time. And when you go into that, let’s try something different this time with a playful energy. Then you’re not attached to the outcome of that thing. And so, that’s where you’re able to really just brainstorm, try something that you would’ve never tried before, and then see what happens.

And so I think, as we are getting to know these people, our children who are growing and changing, we’re always learning more about who they are. We’re always growing ourselves and learning about who we are and just getting more information. And so, it makes sense that we are not going to know from the beginning how all of these things are going to play out.

Having that playful energy about the conflicts, about the rubs that we find along the way, I think just helps so much. And I’m thinking it’s from the little things like leaving the park with young kids and they don’t want to leave yet. It’s so hard to validate if I’m stuck in my head telling a terrible story about how awful this is, and I knew this was going to happen, and here we go again and like all those kind of feelings.

But if I can be playful about, you know, what’s coming next and get myself into the place of validating them, it can go so much more smoothly than if I shut down on my side and they have a hard time on their side. 

But then also I was thinking of harder things like, you know, when our teens are having really dark thoughts and really a difficult time. How can I bring play into those moments that are just like tearing my heart out? But it’s true that lightening up my energy is still going to be a better choice in those moments. And it’s not easy to hear your children say things that are really upsetting or that they’re having a very difficult time. But trying to move myself away from the future fear, tunnel vision, that sense of dread and to trust, what’s going to happen next? There are so many possibilities. Let’s try something new. That more playful place is going to help in all kinds of circumstances.

ANNA: Yeah. I’m going to just jump on that teen piece real quick because I think it is so important. And what I’ve noticed, and this can even be with the younger kids, but especially with teens, when they bring us something heavy or that feels really big to them, and whatever the thing is might be really big, they are looking to us to see, is this going to break us? Are we going to say, whew, we’re throwing up our hands. This is too much. Or are we going to stand there with that confidence and knowing and trust and leaning in? Because they’re testing the waters. This thing’s feeling really big. And what is it going to do to this person that I love, who I trust and who tends to lead me through these things in the past? 

And so, I think that is so important to check our energy in those situations. And if we need support outside of that dyad with our teen, then that’s great. Get the support, because whoa, they shared some heavy things and that was hard. We can get validation and support ourselves, but when we can be just much more clear and open with our energy. 

And I’m substituting creative energy with playful in some situations. So, in some situations maybe it’s more just like a lighter creative energy with that trust built in that you were talking about. And so, sometimes, again, we’re literally talking about play and making it fun and laughing and doing, and sometimes it just is bringing that lighter, creative, even more problem solving kind of energy, which still has this playful aspect to it.

PAM: Yeah, that is what came up for me, too. It’s like, oh, maybe we should just revisit the idea of playful for a moment. Because as we’ve been talking about it as this lighter energy, more open and curious doesn’t necessarily, and certainly not always mean jokey and fun in the typical sense of, oh, that’s hard. Let’s go play a game. That’s not what we’re meaning when we talk about playful energy. 

But playful really works for me as a term for bringing that lighter, creative, open and curious kind of energy to a moment. And then it means I’m open to seeing and feeling what the other person in that interaction is feeling and going through, to help get a sense of what direction might be helpful, but yes. That grounded energy in more challenging times is so helpful for us and for the other person, especially a teen. Like, yes, I see you. This is hard and we can do it. We can do it. That energy is just so helpful when somebody is just feeling hopeless or just like, I can’t see a path forward. 

And we don’t need to have the answer or the path to have that grounded and curious energy when we’re interacting with them or even when we’re thinking about it. Because if we don’t, we get caught again in that tunnel vision. Oh my gosh. We need to solve this as soon as possible. Or terrible things are going to happen. But yeah, bringing that openness to it, that curiosity, but that grounded, solid, playful, compassionate, all those terms, it’s so much more helpful than getting caught up in the swirl of things.

ANNA: Yeah. Before we go, I’m going to just bring us around to, just again, playfulness, right? And lighten it up just a little bit, because I think sometimes with kids, we get in the adult mindset of, I just tell you what to do and you’re going to do it. Go brush your teeth, it’s time to brush your teeth. Or, do this. We’re getting in this check the box mode or whatever our personality is. And it really can be fun to bring in actual play, especially for younger kids. So again, this is looking at those rub areas to think, what can I do to make this fun?

And it’s tickle monster or silly toothbrush or the airplane things or the whatever. There are so many fun ways to connect and move through the world, and I think our kids really give us that little check when we’re getting too serious, because they can put on the brakes if we are getting too serious. You see them dig in. And so, it’s just a reminder that that doesn’t mean we have to double down and push harder and try to really force. It can be a little wake up call of like, hey, why are we not bringing a lighter energy to this? Why are we bringing this weight? So, I just wanted to bring it around for little kids too, because the teens are important, absolutely. And so are the little kids, that playful piece.

ERIKA: Right. And I just remember so many times where what it will feel like from my perspective is like I’m getting stuck in my head with what we have to do next and trying to move us towards what we have to do next or thinking about something I have to do. And that’s pulling me out of the moment. And I could notice myself not being able to listen to them quite as much and I’m not quite paying attention to what they’re doing and what they’re saying. And so, being playful allows me to notice that too much thinking is going on. I’m looking back at them, and then once I start interacting with them, that’s how all the transitions got easier.

Transitions are hard when I can’t hear anything they’re saying. We’re doing this, we’re doing this. Let’s keep moving. Like, what you’re doing isn’t important. We just have to keep moving. That’s when my transitions would really go off the rails. But if I could be engaged with what they’re doing, talking to them about it, interacting, asking about the characters, asking about what they’re doing, really getting into what they’re focusing on, then we could get out the door, because they’re happily talking to me about the things that they’re interested in and wanting to do. And so, it really is for me the tool of stopping the spinning thoughts in my own head and bringing myself back into the present moment with the kids who are basically always in the present moment.

And so, that’s really great. I could just look at them and that’s the present moment. And so, I just had so much fun playing around with what could be difficult transitions, but now it really is just fun, like, okay, we’re all exploring this topic or we’re all talking about this funny thing, or whatever it is, playing a game on the way out the door.

PAM: I’m playfully coming up with that. I love the transition example, because that is just a huge piece. And the learning and remembering to go to them and engage. We are part of it. It’s not us trying to manage their transition. We are all transitioning out the door or to a different activity or to people showing up, just a change of circumstance.

And it was just a world of difference to recognize and to be like, oh, okay. I’ll actually come in and join you where you are and engage, whether it’s, like you were mentioning Erika, starting up a conversation that we can continue as we move on. Or maybe it’s like really engaging with them and understanding, sharing in whatever joy they’ve been getting from whatever activities they’re doing as you’re helping them close it down or get to a spot where they feel comfortable stopping. And doing it playfully with intention and full choice rather than, oh, this is another thing on my plate that I need to do to get us there. No, this is life. We’re changing activities. 

So, just being there with them. And Anna, that reminder about literal play, whether it’s brushing teeth or whatever it is. There’s a Pokemon app for teeth. There are just so many fun ways to really figure out like what is that’s a bit of the challenge. It can also be the transition, too, having to brush your teeth, just all those pieces are pieces we can play with and just try things out. For me, that was the biggest thing. Just try a little something out. And see how it goes. And there we’re playing with it.

ERIKA: And just allowing ourselves as adults to actually play the things, too. To play Roblox, play Minecraft, play with the toys, check out the things, see what lights up that inner child in ourselves. I feel like those practices, too, just make our lives more fun and help our kids see the fun in us, which, I think, really helps our relationships too.

ANNA: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. Just to wrap it all up, I love how what is weaving into this conversation is the connection we talk about so much and learning about one another. Because when we’re slowing down and connecting and figuring out what the rubs are and finding playful solutions, we’re learning about each other. We’re learning about ourselves, we’re learning about our kids, and that’s what we always talk about. So, I love that. It just weaves all together. And I feel like this was a fun and important conversation. 

So, thanks to you both and thank you for listening. We hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would really love the Living Joyfully Network. You can learn more about it at livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the community button at the top. We hope to see you there. Take care, everybody.

PAM AND ERIKA: Bye!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into consent and autonomy. Moving towards respecting our children’s autonomy and consent is typically an important part of the unschooling journey. In our conversation, we talk about independence vs autonomy, looking for underlying needs, questioning societal messages, and moving from control to connection with our children.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-host, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia.

I’m so excited because this week we’re exploring consent and autonomy, and I really think these are just such deep topics with so many layers, and maybe it becomes a bit more complicated to consider consent and autonomy when we’re in a holiday season or when we are surrounded by our families of origin.

Maybe it feels like there are more external expectations on us and our kids, and so I think it’s a great time to dive into this topic. And on that same note, I wanted to mention that the Living Joyfully Shop has courses and coaching to help you through this time of year, including the course called Navigating Family Gatherings.

There’s a lot to think about when we are preparing to spend time with family, especially during holidays with a lot of traditions and expectations. And some families may particularly have expectations of how children should show up around the holidays, and our unique families might have a different idea of how we want the gatherings to feel. The course can offer you some ideas about how to navigate some of those challenges that come up. You can learn more about that course and all the others at livingjoyfullyshop.com. And now, Pam, would you like to get us started on our conversation?

PAM: Sure, I would love to. And I do love how the ideas of consent and autonomy weave together, and also how this flows from our last podcast episode about weaving our needs into the conversation. So, I think that’s going to be a really fun conversation as well. 

With unschooling, we do prioritize giving our children choices and supporting their autonomy. But what truly lies at the heart of that is consent. In fact, consent lives at the forefront of pretty much every interaction we have with kids. Now, I know as adults we often talk about consent in a sexual context, but when we try on the lens of a child’s consent to do things throughout their day, I think it really can be so eye-opening, and a real paradigm shift.

I notice when I override their consent, what I’m often doing is not giving them the space to consider whether or not they want to do the thing, right? Maybe it’s because I think of it as a given. They’ve always wanted to do this before. We’re just going to do it. Or maybe I’m in a hurry and feel like I don’t have time for the conversations.

It’s not a callous thing. It’s usually more of a, I didn’t even really think about it kind of thing. That’s why it’s interesting to just start using that lens throughout our day. Because it can definitely have consequences if we are not really considering their consent.

One can be eroding the trust in our relationship. It’s harder to trust someone when it feels like they’re railroading you to do things to keep themselves on track. Right? It’s not even asking, leaving the child not feeling seen and heard, because really they aren’t.

Our needs are kind of overriding what’s going on. And another can be that they start to internalize this and think that they’re wrong to want to do the thing that they want to do, the choice that they want to make in that moment. And that can start to dampen down their inner voice. What they want to do in the moment or what they feel about the moment if we keep jumping in without giving them the space to process that and bring that into the conversation and fully consent to what they’re doing.

Well, if my parent thinks that I should be doing this, because they’re saying, let’s go do this, let’s go do this. We’re going to go do this now. What I’m thinking must be wrong. Or I’m wrong for wanting to, or not wanting to do those things that are expected of me.

And then they can lose their voice that way, I think.

ANNA: I think it just erodes that understanding of ourselves because I think that dissonance is actually what causes a lot of stress and anxiety in people of all ages. And we can carry into adulthood.

And that is this, they’re telling me that either what I want to do or don’t want to do is wrong. But I’m feeling it deep inside of me that I don’t want to go do that thing or that I really want to stay focused on this one thing in front of me. It just erodes this trust in our inner voice and our knowing about ourselves.

And I think that is just a really slippery slope. And I know as the parent that’s often coming from a really loving place, like, we’re going to have so much fun, or it’s going to be great, or we want to all be together. We’re not going in there thinking, I am eroding your voice, or I want you to feel bad about yourself.

No, we’re coming in with this love and excitement about the plan. Or maybe a feeling of, I know better than you. I can see this longer picture, but to me, it’s worse having them doubt or question that inner voice because that serves them so much throughout their life to really hear and listen to that.

I think it’s also a safety thing. I think it’s a personal development thing. I think it’s related to relationships and how they show up in relationships later. So to me it’s so foundational, this idea of consent and it was really consent that led me on this path.  I do not like to be controlled. So consent is something that really, even before I had kids, was really important to me.

And so then it was this new area to test and because it’s different with kids, right? Because we do have these ideas, I think we talked about it on the last podcast of – it’s my time. I’m going to be able to do the things I want to do. But then you have this fully formed human that has very strong ideas about what they want to do.

And it did not take me long again, because I don’t personally like to be controlled to go, oh, okay. I don’t want to be the person that’s controlling them and not allowing them to listen to their voice, to not hear them, because I know how terrible that feels. 

The whole idea of consent is so important to me, and it is wrapped up and weaves nicely with autonomy because that is this idea of, what do we want to do? What feels good? How do we want to move forward? I feel like this topic is so vast, though, so I have so many things I want to say, but I’ll see what you’re thinking, Erika, before I just keep going, there’s so much I want to say!

ERIKA: Right. And the more we think about it, I think the more things pop up. I remember the episode where we talked about cultivating our children’s inner voices or  allowing space for that to develop and how important that is to me. 

When I’m thinking about this topic, I’m remembering how it felt to be a kid. It is so powerful to just go back to even four and 5-year-old me, little me. And I can remember knowing what felt good, knowing what felt scary, knowing that I knew for myself what felt right and what didn’t.

And so having the space to express that as a kid is so huge. And then having someone who actually will believe your experience, believe that you could have a different opinion than someone else. And then to tell you that that’s okay. That is just the biggest gift that we could give to someone. And I really think that it is what will help them trust their inner voice.

And from my perspective as a parent, it’s fun because I’m learning about someone who I haven’t met before, which is my child. This person who is their own person through and through, and they know what they want. They know what feels bad and what feels good. And so, just cultivating that curiosity from the parent perspective.

What could I learn about my child today? What are they going to show me about how they want their life to be? Rather than me coming in saying, I know how children are supposed to be, or, I know what I like and so therefore you like it. I know that you do because it’s great 

Talking over their inner voice disconnects them. It breaks that trust they have in us. And, the more that I can hold space, leave space for them to say, I know you’re loving this, but I don’t like it, they just trust me so much more and then I’m learning about them and it’s so rewarding, I think as a parent.

PAM: I like rewarding, what a lovely word. What I find so fascinating is when we railroad over their consent, what we’re really doing too is interfering with their learning, like the choice that they want to make in that moment, what they do or don’t want to do. They will learn the most by having that experience, not by us stopping them from having that experience.

What we’re thinking might be, I don’t think you’re going to like that and you really want to go. That’s going to mean X, Y, Z, whatever story we tell ourselves about it. But you know what, if they really want to try this thing, they want to do this thing. If they can do that, they are going to learn so much in that moment.

It’s like us telling somebody else what we think the outcome will be for them. And you know what? We are not them. Right? And how often have we just taken at face value, something somebody tells us as like, yeah, you won’t like that, or you’ll love this, et cetera. It doesn’t feel good to us, doesn’t feel good to someone at any age.

When we are wanting an experience, we will learn the most by having it, and then we can say, I did not like this, X, Y, Z about it. I really learned that because I have the experience, I now have the context. I’m now making those connections in my own head, building my body of knowledge around myself and I’m gaining self-awareness.

It’s like, oh, I didn’t think it would be this way. Right? Or, I loved it, et cetera. It really helps with learning. So when we’re in that experience, it really makes connections for us. It really helps us understand ourselves and the things we do and don’t like to do.

So, when we step in, even with the biggest heart because we don’t want them to be upset or we don’t feel we have the energy for an overloaded environment or something like that. Those are considerations, but also the more we can help them have the experiences they are looking to have, the more they will learn.

So, not walking over their consent also means they will be learning something that is close to their heart right now because this is a choice that they’re wanting to make right now and that will help them take the next step. Instead of having to keep asking for that step over and over and over, they’re just kind of stuck in their learning at that point because we’re not helping them bring more in around what they’re learning.

ANNA: I love that learning point and I think we talk about consent and autonomy a lot. There’s other conversations, definitely on the network and I think even some other podcasts have hints of it as well. But I think this is just another opportunity to examine, to really look in and think about our thinking.

Because if you were to ask any person, do you want to push through your child’s consent? Most likely the answer is no, because that doesn’t sound good. We’ve all learned that consent is important and we need to understand it. And we have an expectation that teenagers will understand it and that other adults will understand it.

And we see it play out in ways and we are upset about it, where we feel like our consent has been violated. So we would say no. But this is where we can examine, but am I doing it again with this big heart thinking I know best, or thinking that if I just do this, then push them a little bit here or just not worry about that they don’t want to do that there, then it’s going to be okay.

So to maybe flip it on the other side, I think we all want compassionate people, right? We want our kids to be compassionate and kind and this is where it starts, this right here. This one piece to me is so critical in having a world that’s filled with compassion, because when we can slow things down to really hear what’s happening to someone. I’m thinking of 4-year-old Erika who knows what she needs and wants in that situation. What a different world it is when someone says, Hey, I get that. I get that you don’t want to do that, or you’re seeing it differently than I am, or that you don’t like it right now because it’s right now, and she might like it later, so I don’t have to future trip on, oh, she’s not doing this one thing, and she’ll never do it.

I can just say, I want to honor you where you are. Because again, that’s where compassion is born. And then that child wants to offer that to the next person and the next person, and it spreads from there. So I think just pausing and slowing down and maybe a little examining about what it is that we want to be fostering in our environment.

What is it that we want to be learning about, because it’s learning for me too, because it’s hard to live with other people. It’s hard to take everybody into consideration and all of those pieces. But then there’s so much reward to it and so much learning.

That’s what makes it doable for me. Because I think some people think I can’t do that. It takes too much time. Or I don’t have the bandwidth, but when I really think about what are my core values and what am I wanting to foster and create, then it makes that easy.

It makes taking that time easy, it makes spending that little bit of extra energy so much easier.

ERIKA: That’s why the work for us to do is our internal work. And being resourced, being given that time and space in my own mind is enough to leave that room for them to express what they’re feeling about a situation.

It does take intention and it does take patience. And that’s why I think that weaving in our needs from last time is also so critical here because it really is when I feel like I’m in a rush, I feel like I’m doing a million things, those are the moments that I’m the most likely to push through someone’s consent because it’s just one more thing on my plate. That’s what it feels like, you know?

We’re trying to get out the door and now they’re saying that they are worried about going. How do I have time to deal with that conversation? And so that really is the time to remember the why. The most important thing that I could do in this life is this. These conversations with the kids, leaving the space for them to have their feelings and to figure out what feels good moving forward.

And so, yeah, I just think it is all my work to do. And we were probably not modeled much of this as kids and growing up in a really controlling environment of school. And so, it’s just a lot of intention that has to come from me.

PAM: Yeah. I love the way you expressed that, Erika, that this is our intention.

This really is the important work that I want to choose to do in these moments and to feel reasonable enough that you can make that shift right in the moment when we recognize that somebody is feeling like their consent is being pushed on. And, if one of the things we were wanting to talk about that I feel is so important is not only not pushing their consent, but it’s in support of their autonomy, right.

Of them making choices. And like I was talking about before, making these choices is reflecting who they are in that moment and what they’re wanting or not wanting to do, right? We want to give them choices so that they can then pursue who they are and explore who they are and the things that they like to do.

That’s life. But one of the fascinating things is, I remember having those moments and when I’m feeling a little under-resourced too, right? Is that they want their autonomy, they want to do the thing, well then they can go and do it, right? So it’s thinking about autonomy versus independence.

We can easily make that little quick connection. That autonomy means doing it themselves. If they want to make that choice, then they can do it. It’s their responsibility to follow through and do the thing then. But yeah, autonomy and independence are very different things.

We don’t need to have the expectation that they can independently do the things that they’re wanting to do. If we are wanting to support them in pursuing their interests and learning about their interests and learning about themselves. It is for us to help them do the things. And the lovely thing is, when we’re there with them, we can help them process, right?

They have someone to talk to about this. They don’t feel judged about saying, I really wanted to come do this thing and we’ve been here a half hour and I really want to go home now because this is not what I expected. Verses it’s not okay. You wanted to come here, so we’re coming here for the whole thing.

I love the word interdependence. We are helping them explore the things that they’re interested in and as we talked about last time, weaving our lives together, we are all wanting to do the things and it’s about all of us. Everyone’s consent, everyone’s autonomy, and weaving together the things that we’re wanting to do, not wanting to do, and finding a way as much as we can, and without that pressure of time.

So maybe if there is something that I want to do but it doesn’t fit right now. Is it okay if it’s tomorrow? Often it can be, there isn’t an emergency. And that perspective also comes with experience. So, sometimes things feel super urgent for our kids and we can understand that. And help them gain those moments because that’s something that will come with time too.

But anyway, yeah, autonomy and independence are completely different. 

ANNA: Very different things. I know we have a podcast on the independence agenda, and I think it’s important to revisit that too, to recognize that there is really a difference. I think consent weaves in, so it’s so interesting how they’re all so interrelated and how different it feels to have that interdependence than to have either an independence agenda or this control.

The control paradigm of a parent telling a child what to do. I had a client that was recently sharing a story that I think is related, so I’m going to go for it for just a second. She has a strong independence agenda that we talk about a lot. And I was like, tell me where that came from. What comes to mind from when you were younger? 

And she shared a story of how they were very young children and they were told they had to go rake the whole yard. They had this giant yard and they had to rake the whole yard, two young children. And then the parents came out and it wasn’t good enough and said, you’ll do it again.

This was even though it had taken them hours to do. And they were just so devastated and had to do this again. And she’s said, but you know, I guess we learned we just have to do it right the first time and that it was just on us. I said, what would it have felt like if they had come out and said, oh, you know what, there’s still some leaves here let’s all get them up together. 

She just stopped for a second and said, I think I would’ve felt really loved and like I’m not alone. Because that’s the thing, right? What are we valuing? And again, this is may be a ‘people are different’ thing too, but what are the values?

We’ve talked about this before. Maybe independence is a value. But I think it’s worth examining, are there unintended consequences to when we’re putting that on someone else? I think we can want our own independence. We can want our own autonomy, but when we’re deciding for someone else that that’s what they need, that’s where we’re pushing through consent, potentially. That’s where we’re potentially changing the relationship. And so I think it’s also valuable to just slow down, dig in a little bit and see, does this really align with what I’m feeling inside? Or am I just repeating outside messages and then putting it on the kids in front of me?

ERIKA: It’s where the agenda becomes more important than anything else. But is that really what we want? Or is that again, this role of the good parent that we’re trying to fill? I think that’s super interesting. And then I was also thinking, just a note for the parents of young children.

I feel like this consent and autonomy can be the most challenging during those very young years because a lot of the big reactions that toddlers and little kids can have about things don’t feel logical at all. That was a challenge for me, and I see it being a challenge for a lot of parents with little kids.

I clearly see what’s going on and they’re having this big reaction that doesn’t really make any sense logically to an adult mind. And so I don’t know. I don’t particularly have advice, but I’m just thinking, solidarity with the parents of young children. And then also, for a young child, these big feelings are real.

And so I think giving the space for them to have them, taking them seriously,that’s the biggest thing you can do. Because it’s the worst feeling to have a big emotion about something, which I still do have big emotions about some things. And then to have someone say. You don’t feel like that. You don’t need to feel like that. You shouldn’t feel like that. 

It’s so invalidating. And so, doing this work of listening, leaving space, and letting even the littlest kids have their feelings and not pushing through that, I think is such amazing work.

ANNA: Right, because I want to say that, because I have that logical brain too, and it can be hard, why are we freaking out about the blue sippy cup versus the pink sippy cup? Can we just want a sippy cup?

But what I found is that when I could check that and go, okay, but what’s really happening here? It is a big emotion about something. And oftentimes there are contextual pieces or you know, HALT They’re hungry, they’re angry, they’re lonely, they’re tired.

Something else that’s going on, something else at play. And so when we can really hear, and validate that you want this particular blue sippy cup, we need to find it and clean it, even though we have 20 other sippy cups right here. You see that energy comes down because if we stay in our place of, we’re going to out logic over the 2-year-old, it’s not a winning proposition.

It’s just going to, things are just going to escalate. But like you said, we can see it as adults too. It’s like someone telling us, well that’s not logical for you to be upset about this thing or anxious about this thing, or worried about this thing. That doesn’t feel connecting and it doesn’t  help you go, okay, well yeah, I’m not going to worry about it now because you told me not to.

ERIKA: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So I’m just thinking, there could be a lot of times when I’m at a heightened emotion and so if we are moving forward with this plan that I’m feeling scared about or upset about, and we’re going to do it anyway, it feels like my consent is not being respected in that moment. But really all it would take is for someone to hear my concerns. Let’s talk through my concerns, validate that it’s okay, that I’m feeling the way that I feel. Then maybe I really am okay moving forward. I just needed to be heard first.

And so with consent, I think sometimes it can happen where we think my kid doesn’t want to do this, so I guess we can’t do it. And then that’s the end of the conversation. Rather than, my kid doesn’t want to do this. Let’s get curious. What are the reasons? Let’s try to figure it out. Let’s validate. Problem solve, be creative, and then maybe the event actually does happen because everyone feels heard and we’re able to figure out a way that it actually feels okay.

PAM: Yeah, I think those conversations are the most interesting because again, as we’ve talked about so much, it’s not about having the outcome in mind. It really is understanding the context for each person. If something somebody super does or super doesn’t want to do, that is part of the context of the conversation. I can say, yeah, well this was interesting to me, but I’m not super committed and it doesn’t matter per se. and then if I am super committed, then we get curious, we talk about what it is that they’re uncomfortable with or imagining or envisioning, just so that we can get a clearer picture of what it’s going to be and see if there’s a way to mesh them together. 

And then if we don’t find that way, then look for other ways, can somebody else come and stay with them? Can they stay on their own? Depending on their age. There are so many possibilities when we take our mind off the tunnel of this one initial outcome that we saw as the initial path.

And we discover there are so many ways. So many times over the years I found new ways to get to something with my kids because they’ve had these really cool ideas.

ANNA: Right, and we’re not having to give up something. I think this really does relate back to the other podcasts we’ve done, but it also relates to what you said at the top of this show, Erika, which is, the holidays are a good example and things where we don’t have to give up what we want to understand what’s happening for everyone.

But it again, if we tunnel in on this one outcome, okay, we’re all going to march into family dinner and we’re going to sit there and it’s going to look like this because that’s what we do. That may not work. But when we get to each individual’s preferences, hey, I like talking to this person. I like seeing the tree. I like looking at the lights.I like talking to grandma. I like playing the card game. 

Then we can figure out how we can do those things. So it’s not about giving up what we are wanting to do, to honor someone’s consent. It’s really about just weaving all of it together. And again, with very young children, it’s sometimes just giving them space for those big emotions.

And being playful about it. I’m thinking of leaving the park at the playground. That can be hard, you know? And then instead of thinking, okay, I’m going to have to drag them to the car, or are we going to stay here for the rest of our lives because they don’t want to leave. There’s a middle ground of letting them have that emotion and validating.

You don’t want to leave, we’ve had so much fun! We would always race to the tree and race to the other tree and we’d be working our way closer to the car or piggybacks to the car or things like that, just recognize that some transitions are harder for some kids. And I think you said this Erika earlier, and Pam, this is where the learning is.

This is where we’re learning about each other. It’s hard to leave something where we’re having fun or it’s hard to leave something that we’re engaged in. That doesn’t mean we can never do it. It just means that we’re taking time to be heard and seen and it just feels so different. It just really feels so different and so connected.

And again, I believe that then that is what ripples out into the world because now they have this template of,  it’s really nice to feel seen and heard and I want to see and hear the people in my life.

ERIKA: And remembering that everybody’s differences are okay and that’s just so amazing in a family, not writing the story that, oh, because you know, my kid doesn’t want to be in this crowded family event, means they don’t care about family, or they don’t like family traditions or, some big story when it’s really just, it’s a lot of stimulation or it’s a lot of people trying to talk to you and it’s overwhelming. And so, just leaving space for everyone to be themselves. It’s kind of great. 

Well, this has been so much fun and we hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an aha moment like I did, or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network.

It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on livingjoyfullyshop.com, and we hope to meet you there. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.

Bye bye!

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and we’re talking about weaving in our needs.

When we first come to unschooling, it’s common to start questioning the traditional roles of parent and child. Maybe we go from seeing adult needs as the priority and then we swing on the pendulum over to meeting all of our children’s needs as the priority and let ours fall by the wayside.

But eventually, ignoring our own needs is a recipe for burnout and resentment. We can work to incorporate everyone’s needs into the family conversation, because we are all different and all of our needs matter.

This was a really fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

Blog post – Are You Playing the Role of Mother?

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hi to you both.

We are going to be diving into another unschooling stumbling block today, which is weaving our needs into our days. And I think this is a big one. I remember this one. And while as always, it’s not cut and dried, it is definitely an important part of just living together as a family and noticing overwhelm, hopefully before it becomes burnout.

But before we dive in, we want to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is just so much value in doing that deep personal work that the unschooling journey asks of us in community, because while everyone’s journey is definitely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges and stumbling blocks, and that’s where the power of community shines.

In the network, you can learn from the experiences of other unschooling parents. Draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways that they navigate both their own and their family’s day-to-Day needs. It is a conversation that comes up very regularly. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to living joyfully shop.com and click on community in the menu.

Now, Anna, would you like to get us started?

ANNA: I would, I’m glad we’re talking about this because you’re right. I think it’s an important understanding and really it’s a paradigm shift when we’re moving to unschooling or more connection-focused parenting, because typically we’re a very adult focused world.

The needs of adults tend to get the most attention, and kids are kind of along for the ride. We hear things like, they can adjust and then their resilience is praised and adults know best anyway. And all of these kinds of pieces that we’ve all steeped in and heard in our own childhood.

But once you open your mind and heart to really seeing children as fully formed humans on their own journey, it brings everything into question. We start to see how often kids are discounted, how their feelings are dismissed, and how they aren’t trusted to know themselves. Letting go of those ideas and seeing children as capable and trustworthy, it’s beautiful. It’s a powerful shift along the journey to prioritizing connection and supporting autonomy. 

I do think we have to be careful because while it’s great to notice and correct for this power imbalance, we don’t need to tip too far the other way because we’re still imbalanced. We’re still actually in that whole power paradigm, it’s just another person feeling disempowered.

So sometimes, that pendulum swing to the other side is necessary to find the center ground that honors all the parties involved. But we don’t need to hang out there too long. And recognizing we’re hanging out there, I think, can be really important to making that shift to everyone’s needs being valued, because when we find the center, we realize that everyone can have their needs met.

It’s not a race, it’s not a competition. We can create an environment grounded in trust and understanding that all of our needs are valid and together we can find a way. I feel like there are a lot of aspects to dig into, but I’m going to stop here. And Erika, we’ll go to you. What bubbled up for you when you were thinking about this idea?

ERIKA: Yeah, I really saw that same pendulum swing idea when I was reading about this topic as well, because as we’re growing up, we don’t have any power. We can’t wait to be an adult because then finally we get to make our own decisions. Our needs will finally be important. We’ll finally get our say.

And so it could be natural to step into parenthood with that view of, now, finally, I’m in charge. My needs are the most important. And then when we start to notice how different our children are from us, how much they already know about themselves, and if we’re curious about giving them their autonomy, I do think it can be a huge pendulum swing to, oh my gosh, I’m just going to support all of their needs all the time, and I’ll just forget about mine because I’m an adult.

I can handle it. So, I do think that can be a recipe for that kind of martyrdom and resentment that can start to come up where we think, I do everything for them and I never get to meet any of my needs. And that really is not the goal of unschooling, to have that feeling that I never meet my own needs.

And so I do think this is a paradigm shift to, we are all humans. We all have needs and we all can get our needs met in this kind of community, in this family. And so, it’s kind of revolutionary and I think it’s a journey to get from, I’m the boss to, my kids are the boss to wait a second, there is no boss. We’re all working together. And it’s just so valuable once you can get to that place.

PAM: I do love that there’s just the imagery of the paradigm and the pendulum swing. Right? And I encourage people to use such loving language for themselves, right?

Not like, oh crap, I went too far, or I’m not doing enough. The way we are using it as something that we’re recognizing, using it as a clue. Oh, okay. This is something that I want to think a little bit more about, that I want to consider some more. That’s one of the things we love about this podcast is just sharing some observations and some stumbling blocks that we have seen along the way that people kind of bump into, stumble over, that are great clues that there’s something more that you can consider here.

And as you guys were talking, something that bubbled up for me, another consideration as we’re trying. I swung really far and I am quite happy with supporting my kids and everything, but I’m starting to feel overwhelmed. I’m starting to feel like nobody hears me, nobody considers me.

I am feeling exhausted, maybe a little bit mildly, like all those pieces, and I want to come and find a way to bring my needs into the conversation. One thing that I think is really important or valuable, helpful to consider at that point is the idea of fairness, because bringing our needs back into the conversation doesn’t mean, well, I did three things for you, so now I get to do three things for me.

That’s another layer that’s just going to interfere with figuring things out. Because now I need to start thinking about, what are my needs? And then you’re thinking about expectations. You’re thinking about those societal conversations like, is it that I need to go to the spa once a month?

But no, it can be, what is it that I actually need? What is it in this particular situation? What is more fundamentally my personality, that I feel like I’ve been dampening? What do I need to bring into the conversation in an ongoing way? Is it certain situations or environments or places that trigger something for me?

We talk quite a bit about narrating, that’s where that can start to be helpful in sharing. So it’s not that I need to bring my needs to the table all the time. It may be that I’m just sharing these pieces of me, so that other people get to learn a bit more about me. Because if I’m just taking care of everybody else’s needs, nobody’s learning much about me, right?

That is part of starting to bring things in but not like tit for tat I did this, now you get to do this. It really has so much to do with people are different and what our fundamental needs are and seasons because there are seasons where somebody might have a heavier load of needs for a while, right?

And it’s not wrong to consider that and make choices with that in mind as well. There’s just so much in there, isn’t it?

ANNA: There’s so much and I love that because fair is not equal. So, watch for those kinds of old tropes that we can bring in, that can end up again being a disconnect. But I actually think that one of the first steps for us in this process is to really tune in and understand what our needs are, be able to articulate them because if we think back and we were children in an environment where our needs were not valued or really taken into consideration as much,how we didn’t even learn to express them. And so what can tend to happen is that it builds up, it builds up, it builds up.

This is regardless of unschooling, and then it comes out as this explosion of you’re not helping me or nobody’s hearing me because maybe that’s what it sometimes took in childhood, the big explosion to get the attention. And so what I love about this is it’s just this time for introspection and learning more self-awareness. 

And recognizing this is niggling a little bit, or this isn’t feeling good. Or watching for some pebbles of feeling more tired, or feeling not as engaged and what do those things look like? And then being able to narrate a bit more. I love that you mentioned that because I think it’s so important because that’s how we learn about each other. 

And then also, again, just to be able to articulate because that’s what this process looks like when you get further down the road is just everybody being able to, casually without energy, articulate their needs. It doesn’t have to be a blow up.

It’s like, Hey, this is what I’m feeling now and this trust that we can develop that these other people care and we’re going to figure it out together. It’s not that it’s one or the other. And so, yeah, I think that’s going to be really interesting. But I do think that’s the first place to go is really, What are my needs and what do they look like? 

And I love the piece that you said, Pam, about, don’t borrow your needs from what society’s telling you your needs are. Things like, you need to have date night, you need to go to the spa once a month. You need to do all of this stuff. Maybe, maybe those are things that feel good to you.

But those two particular things did not feel good to me, so that wasn’t where my needs were. And so, you really have to shut out the noise to tune in and know yourself. I’m an introvert. I need this time. What does that look like? What fits within the context of my life, where it is now and this season?

Which I think is very valid because it changes. We’ve seen lots of seasons over these 20 some years of kids. I love just digging in and learning more about yourself because I feel like sometimes we haven’t really been given that opportunity at all.

ERIKA: Right, right. I think that’s why it’s such a big paradigm shift or so challenging in the beginning because we’re not really tuned in. We may be more in the role of parent than tuned in to ourselves as unique individuals and thinking about how people are different. But I just love that as we start narrating, even for ourselves, telling ourselves what we are feeling and what’s going on for us and just recognizing the context of the moment. It’s just so valuable for us to learn about ourselves. And then it’s little clues that our family is learning about us as well. 

If I can start my saying, I didn’t get great sleep. I’m thinking we need to keep meals kind of simple today. That’s a little thing that I can say in the morning that just gives everyone the idea of, okay, we’re not making the lasagna, but then it’s not a big deal. We will do it on another day when I have more energy. But just giving them a heads up about my context and how I’m feeling.

And then you’re right, that then everyone else starts to learn or say, okay, I can do that for me too. You know what, I’m feeling really grumpy about this. I am not in the mood for that anymore. The more individuals you have in your family, the more complicated it can get. But even with just my family of four, we all thought we’d be in the mood to do this, and then something comes up, someone’s not feeling good, or someone’s feeling like they need some rest or whatever it is, and so just the more we can talk about that, the more I think everyone’s needs kind of weave together. 

And I love that the title of this one is like weaving in our needs. Because that’s what it feels like. It’s not something that we can schedule everything well in advance. Because the context of the moment is what determines what I actually need.

PAM: I love that. That’s beautiful. Okay, I’m going to try and remember the two things that bubbled. Number one in us not even often recognizing our needs at first. And knowing there’s a need and meeting a need, those are two separate things, but I think something we’ve been talking about in the network lately, is our kids as our guides, and I was thinking of the pendulum swing and not being hard on ourselves if we have swung really far.

And I love just that whole power paradigm thing. But if we swung there, I think our kids can be great examples of sharing what they need. Right? So they will tell you, I don’t want to do that, or I need to do this, I need to do this. The language depends on their age and all that kind of stuff and personalities.

But I feel like often they are just more grounded in knowing in the moment what their need is. So sometimes they are just a great example to look to and just say, well, if they can express it, maybe I can express it. Ooh, they know what they’re needing in this moment, and we see the context of the moment too.

And that’s all interesting fodder that we can use to think. And for ourselves, like we were saying to even discover what our need is, there may be a moment where we’re feeling off. We’re feeling a little gnarly. It’s like, oh, is that low energy? Is that because what I’m being asked to do is something I don’t really like to do? There could be so many reasons why we’re feeling off in that moment, and it is so worth understanding because we can’t meet that need until we really understand what it is. If we think it’s because we’re exhausted and we get more rest, et cetera, and then it still bothers us next time. We can keep exploring. Try things, play with things, but what we’re doing is learning about ourselves and that increased self-awareness is so helpful. 

And I too love the weaving in our needs because truly, like you were saying, Erika, we can’t know ahead. We can in general know that we enjoy things and they will fill our cup, et cetera,  and so we can try and find work time, making space and time to do those things. But it doesn’t mean that until that thing happens, I just have to grin and bear it right until the next time I can go to the coffee shop with my friend.

And again, there’s zero judgment on whatever refills our cup or that we enjoy in the moment, anything that brings us energy. But it’s funny at what actually works for us as an individual and then finding ways to weave it into the little things even into our days, whether we have younger kids, older kids, etc.

Maybe somebody’s going through something and there’s lots of heavy conversations. In those times, even especially, it’s important to weave little bits of meeting our needs, little bits of self care, like all those pieces in. And so to not put all this pressure on these bigger things to meet our needs, but rather notice, what if I have my favorite tea or if I go for a walk around the house or if I read two pages of my book? What are the things that just help you ground and recenter and feel a little bit cared for, and then you can share that with the people around. I’m going to go sit and read my book for 10 minutes, then I’ll come and help you with this thing. It’s those narrating pieces. 

Because when you weave it into your day, it’s like an ongoing thing of value, versus, you can do all you want to me, I will do everything. And then once a month I get to go off and do my own thing. That really doesn’t work long term, and really doesn’t help them understand the other person. And the message is they need a break from us. Because we’re a lot. 

But then of course when we’re there, it’s almost like they need more, right? Because it’s like, okay, well I know that they’re there for me. I’ll get them to do all the things. because then they’ll get their escape. It’s just like a different message than just weaving in our needs

ANNA: It’s a very different message. And it was funny because I just jotted the note in front of me while Erika was talking. The pressure that it puts on that time. If it’s going to be this time away. Or this thing, where everything has to be perfect, right? We feel this tension about making it the best we can because it’s going to be the thing that has to refill our cup.

And what we’ve learned so much and talked about so much in the network is that it really is those little moments that actually do so much more for our nervous system and for our ability to be present.  And what you just said, Pam, was important to me. I didn’t want that to be the message, that I need a break from you because that seems to put some kind of responsibility on them too, that they’re too much or there’s something wrong and it’s like, no, I need to figure out how to take care of my needs.

And so switching gears just a tiny bit, going to the practical, I think one of the things that helps with this is to not have that specific outcome in mind. So not thinking that self-care looks like this, or meeting my needs looks like that. So if we take even a specific need, you know, it’s like, okay, there’s different ways to meet that.

This is one you and I have talked about before, Pam, but we both liked writing, and in my head, writing before I had kids was a long block of time with nobody around me. Often it was late at night and it was quiet time and the house was quiet or the apartment was quiet.

Then I had kids and that time didn’t exist. There was a part of me that thought, I guess I’m not writing anymore, or that’s not going to be a part of my life anymore. But it’s opening to actually, what can I do? And it ended up being shorter articles or different things or journaling and I realized, I can fit this in.

But when I was so fixated on it had to look this one way. I ended up feeling disappointed. I probably had an energy about it. It didn’t feel good. And so really letting go of the specific outcome to get into what is it that I enjoy about the particular thing, whatever it is, what is it about it that feeds me?

What is it that I really enjoy? And so for me, it’s playing around, intellectual thought, thinking and putting something down on paper and being able to explain something in a way that makes sense to me and to other people, that’s really fun for me. And so, okay, I can still do that. And so I think that’s a practical piece of it, is to really watch for those set outcomes so that you can get more creative. 

That’s what I love about this process when we’re involving everyone, we’re creating this climate of being creative and solving for these different needs in different ways. And you see it play out with every member of the family, and that gets pretty fun. 

PAM: Can I jump in for a second? Because what bubbled up for me there too is the value of our environment.

So, part of it is figuring out what was it that I liked about the thing. Because I’m like, oh, okay. I really enjoyed this thing. And it was writing for me too, that was a big one. And then it’s like, okay, but what is it that I enjoy? I’m all disappointed because I can’t make it look the way I feel like it needs to look for me.

But once I can move through. Then let’s be a little bit curious, a little bit creative. Let’s brainstorm some ways. And for me, it’s useful to brainstorm as in specifically not discounting every idea I have immediately, before I start to process and discount things. I like to have, I don’t know, at least 10 or 20 ideas in front of me because then they run the gamut, right?

That just kind of breaks the ice for me. I really want it to look this one way. So, that is super helpful for me, the brainstorming piece. Then thinking this way might work. And then it’s setting up my environment to make it as easy as possible for me to pop into that.

Because typically, especially with younger kids, but having kids, your pockets are typically smaller. Like you were saying, late at night or early in the morning while everybody’s sleeping. I remember you talked about Anna, about having your guitar close by.

And I would have my headphones and I had my desk. One of my ideas was I’ll just put my desk downstairs and people will know where I am and they can come. But, oh my gosh, after about a week, that did not feel good. To me, it just felt two separate, too disconnected. So then I popped it up in the middle of the house where everybody was going to be wandering by, and I had some headphones, right?

That way, I wasn’t distracted by every little noise that I heard of somebody playing or whatever, whatever. But they could easily talk to me, they would see me. I would see them walking by and they could grab my attention easily if need be. What we’re doing is sharing our needs. Just by the fact that we’re setting up our environment.

If you want to go write for half an hour, because I know I’m going to be playing away. Our family, our kids want to support us. In the seasons that they can when their needs aren’t heightened or anything, but when they know and when we’re setting up our environment for that it’s obvious, right?

And they’ve got their toys out, they’ve got their things all over the place. Our things can be part of the family too. And then it’s just all of us weaving throughout the day doing the things we want, coming together, splitting apart, maybe a couple over here, just weaving our days together to meet those.

And you know, we feel more seen and heard when our things that we like to do are actually seen by the people and appreciated. Not that we expect them to do them with us or have the same interest, but we can all appreciate everyone’s interests, understanding that we all have things that we like to do. That makes sense.

ERIKA: Anna, when you were bringing up the creativity, it was funny because the note I had written that I wanted to talk about next is that, the creativity that I think this requires in order to meet four people’s needs in a family. We have to be creative about what that can look like.

And it can’t just be one person with the vision of what it should look like with all the ideas and then everyone just follows along, because that isn’t everyone getting their own needs met. And so I think when we talk about everyone’s different needs and meeting them, one thing that can be a stumbling block too, is just the feeling of well, my need is for you to do this.

And so, when we start labeling that our need is for people to do something differently or something for us, then we’re losing the point of the need. Iit is my need and maybe there are people who can help me meet my needs but we can be creative and figure out a way that works for everyone.

That’s not my need, if it is requiring you to do this. I forget what we call that, but basically like it can go from talking about needs to really just trying to control everyone to make the environment the way that feels the most comfortable to us, you know? And so if my need is for quiet, my answer could be for everyone to be quiet.

But really, if I’m creative and if we come up with a family solution that works for everyone, it might not be that they’re quiet. It might be that I find a different place to be or headphones like you’re talking about before. There’s lots of different options. Once we can open up to creative problem solving, rather than just going in with, my need is for you to not need me right now, or whatever might come up in our heads.

ANNA: But I think that’s about not really being able to articulate our needs, not really understanding the process of what our need is and that we’re responsible for it. And I think that’s a practice thing, you know? I think that really, that’s almost that little red flag or reminder that I still have some more work to do to figure out what my actual need here is. Because if it’s to control other people and that’s going to make me happy, you’ll find that that’s a slippery slope that doesn’t really end up working out like you think it will. 

But when we can be real clear about what’s happening, we start to see other options. I think also what’s important about that piece is when we put it on someone else, we can be met with defensiveness or it sets up a dynamic that doesn’t feel as good.

But when I can say, gosh, my head is hurting and I just feel like I need quiet right now because it’s just been such a long day. Then they’re more inclined to say. Oh, I want to help you with that. I can see that you’re hurting or that that doesn’t feel good, but if I’m like, you are too loud, you need to quiet down without giving information about what’s happening for me, then it becomes, okay, wait, you’re saying there’s something wrong with me. You’re saying that I’m doing something wrong or bad, and it creates that defensiveness, or either shame depending on the personality and the child. So just that extra step to really own it is so important. But I think we don’t do that because we haven’t felt our needs were valid.

So, it’s a hard place to go to say, is this need of mind for quiet valid? It’s almost easier to lash out with more of an anger or control piece because that may be what we’re used to seeing. So it’s  cool to unpack that and see what’s really happening there?

ERIKA: Yeah, that was just making me think that it’s part of the pendulum swing too.

When we get too far over, now the kids are having most of, or all of their needs met and we’re ignoring ourselves and trying not to have needs. Then we get that agitation and resentment and then it comes out as, you guys need to do this, you need to stop doing that. Stop being loud, go to sleep, all these things.

I think it’s just kind of getting into that more middle spot on the pendulum where it’s not about controlling the other person, but I’ve been resourcing myself enough that I’m not having those explosions of everyone here needs to change what they’re doing because I have a need right now.

PAM: So often those explosions are out of the blue to them, right? Because we’re trying to hold it back, hold it back, hold it back, and then it just comes bubbling out and they’re like, what the heck? We’ve been doing this for 30 minutes and now all of a sudden it’s bothering you. And then if we don’t give the context, it’s like, oh, is it about me?

There’s just so many mixed messages that can happen there. And yeah, let’s get back to that pendulum swing, and I think what can be really helpful. What I found helpful is as I’m trying to explore and find that middle rhythm, it really was as I’m trying to figure out my needs, it really was bringing that playful attitude to them because it’s like, okay, I think this is my need, and I think something like this will help. 

And then we have that conversation. And like you’re saying, not with a specific outcome, but with understanding. Do you have any ideas on how this can help? That doesn’t mean that’s an answer forever. Whenever we find ourselves in that same situation, like you said,  we just may discover, oh, you know what? That didn’t really help as much as I thought it would. I don’t feel as resourced. I don’t feel like my need was met.

Oh, maybe I hadn’t identified it quite yet, but we’ll be sitting there stewing for ages forever trying, if we wait until we are sure we’ve got to the root of our need. It’s okay to play with it a bit and to bring that lighter energy to it because it is just so much easier to have a conversation about this with someone who is energetically lighter because when the conversation’s heavy, it can feel like it’s a yes or a no kind of thing.

It doesn’t feel like a brainstorming conversation where everybody’s going to be heard and considered. It’s more of an energy okay, we can keep sharing ideas, but until they match the idea you have in your head, you’re not going to agree to it anyway. So why bother having that?

ANNA: That’s my mother-in-law. She keeps asking the question until she gets the answer she wants. So yes, and it’s hard and you can see where she’s coming from, but it’s so hard to have that discussion because it’s not a back and forth. It’s not a, how are you feeling about this? What can we do? There isn’t creativity to it. 

It really can feel fun when we are just figuring it out and sometimes it’s hard. Sometimes there’s high emotions because people are feeling very attached to what they need to do in that moment, or the timelines feel pinched or tight, but there is just this underlying trust of, even if it’s hard in this moment we’re going to figure it out. We’re going to keep at it. We’re going to stretch the timeline sometimes because sometimes we can’t do everything in one moment, but we can do it over a series of time. 

I think sometimes for our needs too, looking at the seasons is important and maybe there’s something I’m interested in doing that doesn’t fit this season, but what else could give me a great feeling or could be fun or stimulating for me that does fit into this season?

So it’s not over attaching to one particular way. That’s what I think you’re talking about Pam. The playfulness and creativity comes into play. And again, that being modeled, that happens for everyone. So, then if you had a child that’s focused on doing this one thing with that as the culture, they may be able to say, okay, I really want to do that, but I guess I can wait till Saturday  when we have more time or your partner’s here, and let’s do this other thing now. 

And because they know we’re going to follow up, we’re going to find a way to do it. And we want to do that for ourselves as well. Just know that we’re not going to keep stuffing the needs down.

We’re going to keep looking and finding those creative ways that fit in our family at this time.

ERIKA: I just want to bring it back one more time to make sure that we’re really digging down though to know that this is our need and not the role of the mom that I’m supposed to be or whatever other kind of external things we might have.

Because I think it could be super distracting to be like, I need to be doing these million things in December to get ready for the holidays because that’s what a good mom would do or whatever kind of ideas we might have in our minds. 

So really tuning into, what do I really love? What do I really like? What really fills me up? And then encouraging everyone else in the family to do the same. That’s when we really get to the real needs. 

PAM: The why behind it. I think that helps. I will remember to link in the show notes, I have a blog post called, Are You Playing the Role of Mother?

It kind of digs into that. It’s really interesting stuff to think about. I love that. All right! Thank you so much for joining us, everyone. We hope you enjoyed our conversation around the value and the importance and the playfulness of weaving our needs into our family’s conversation. And if that’s whet your appetite to explore it more deeply, we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully network.

Imagine no longer feeling so alone in your family’s choices. Imagine being part of a group of like-minded individuals who acknowledge and encourage, and encourage you as we walk alongside each other on this amazing journey. We are so excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us. Just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. And wishing everyone a lovely day. Bye!

ERIKA: Bye!

ANNA: Take care!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika dive into supporting our children’s inner voices. External messages and cultural roles can disconnect us from our internal wisdom and knowing. Our unschooling lives give us an opportunity to provide time and space for our children to really tune into their inner voices, and showing them that we are curious about their opinions and letting them know that they know best about themselves can lead to increased self awareness and stronger relationships.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Pam Larrichia and Erika Ellis.

Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out the shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.

Today we’re going to be talking about allowing space for our children to cultivate their own inner voice. Erika, would you like to get us started? 

ERIKA: I would love to. This is fun because I know that I have mentioned my own children’s inner voices many times on the podcast before, and I think cultivating the space for them to tune into those inner voices is one of the most important things that I can do as a parent.

So when we talk about our inner voice or our children’s inner voices, I think it really relates to the idea that people are different, which is something we’re always mentioning. Our thoughts and our feelings, our bodily sensations and so much more, are unique to us individually. And so, the inner voice is messages from our thoughts, our feelings, and our bodies that tell us what feels good to us, what works well for us, what makes sense for us.

It could be described as our intuition or our gut, like the phrase, listen to your gut or our heart, like the phrase, follow your heart. But the key I think, to all of these is that it’s so internal. It’s unique to us as individuals and no one else can know what our inner voice is saying, but us.

And so, if as parents, we’re constantly telling our children what they should feel and think, or implying that there’s a right way to feel and think about things, our children can become disconnected from what they feel and think for themselves. And I think it’s a pretty common experience in school to kind of lose touch with that inner voice because there are just so many external voices telling children what to do and what is best and what is right.

And so, when we’re talking about unschooling, that is one of the really valuable things I think that we can offer our children is that space and time to cultivate that inner knowing and really encourage them to tune into that inner voice, reassure them that everyone’s experience is different and that they’re the ones who truly know themselves deeply.

And I think having someone there who really believes in their ability to make decisions and believes that they can tune into what works for them, is just super empowering for children as they grow and learn. So, I’m excited to talk about this.

PAM: I’m thinking back to when the kids came home from school we were together all the time. When I think about this, the skill I had to learn and really embrace was patience. They left school, so they had that environment. I had relatively recently left work, all those outer voices were strong.

So to have the patience to hold this space for all of us to actually see what bubbles up for us. I mean, it was hard and it was the most amazing and revealing thing. Over time, wow, it’s amazing where we go when we leave space for this. And also it’s amazing the time that it takes.

We were just so used to the busyness and focusing on accomplishing all these things. We want to do this, well, if we want to do this, then we gotta do this, this, this, and this. It’s just so easy to flip into that kind of busyness mode, that accomplishment mode. But to have that patience and hold up that space for everyone, it was life changing.

These are human beings. This is how wonderfully we can move through the world when we have that chance to actually see what bubbles up. Listen to our inner voice, just absorb what’s going on and make that next choice moving forward.

Even when we’re in the flow. To get into the flow of whatever it is that we’re doing in the moment and just to see where it takes us. It was just very beautiful.

ANNA: So many things that I want to say based on what you just said, but I’m going to go in this direction before I lose it, which was, I think a starting point for me was also to learn to listen to my own inner voice. Because I have a belief, I don’t know if it’s true or not true, but I have a belief that our true inner voice doesn’t seek to control others.

And so when I would see myself saying, you should do this, you should do that, that was actually a voice outside of myself that I had incorporated as an inner voice. That was the society or from my family or from people outside of me or from school. I was just this vessel to pass it on to the next generation.

And that’s the piece I wanted to be hyper aware of. And when I really started to tune into what’s my inner voice, what is my priority here? Who do I want to be in the world? You all have heard me say that a million times. Who do I want to be in the world? That really changed because then I could share what worked for me, I could share what was happening for me, but it didn’t have that energy or that judgment of what the other person was doing. 

So I felt like by me really becoming clear on what my inner voice was telling me, it allowed the space for those around me to hear theirs. And my children never went to school.

And so what I saw was that they really led the way for me, right? Because I feel like we all come into the world knowing who we are and what we want to do and how we want to move in that moment. There’s lots of growth ahead. Obviously I’m still growing, but I think we really do have a good sense of ourselves when we come in and that kind of gets chipped away at by various environments or whatever we were exposed to.

But I found that they had a strong sense of that. And when I could not be this vessel of society’s ‘have tos’, I learned from them and it just came very naturally.

ERIKA: I love that so much. That’s amazing. I feel like a lot of times we may have something that feels like our inner voice. But once we start peeling back the layers, once we start thinking about where did this belief come from? Do I really believe it? There are a lot of these things that were just super ingrained, since childhood, societal messages and so, starting with yourself and starting with, what is my actual inner voice saying?

It helps me be curious about everyone else’s and knowing that people are different and everyone’s inner voice is saying something different. And when you said that they start their lives with that strong inner voice, I think that’s so true and it reminds me of “difficult toddlers”, you know, once they start to have their opinions about things and it can be frustrating sometimes for parents. They are thinking they have to try to make them do this thing and they don’t want to do this thing.

But if we can trust that they know what works for them and really value learning more about them and being curious about what their inner voice is telling them and taking that seriously, then I think that builds trust. We talked about it recently as well. Just showing them, yes, I care about what your body and your mind is saying about this thing.

If you’re feeling unsafe in this situation, if you’re feeling like this is not exciting for you, this is not interesting for you. Any of those things, where kids may be giving us a clear message of, I don’t like this. If we can show them that it matters. Your opinion about this is important and I want to learn more about what’s going on for you in that situation. I think that will just really strengthen the relationship too.

PAM: Oh yeah. I think it really, really does. It helps them feel seen and heard. It helps us learn more about them and helps them build trust in themselves. And confidence in themselves.

And another thing I wanted to pick up along those lines is when we talk about supporting them and helping them listen to their inner voices, that does not mean everything is going to go perfectly. It’s back to that open and curious and to recognizing that we’re learning about ourselves and we’re learning about things.

We’re learning about our world, our environment, the people that we live with. It doesn’t mean that everything, that every choice that they make is going to unfold the way they expected, right? That’s  how we are learning more. I thought it was going to go this way. And it really went in a completely different direction.

And maybe I’m super not happy about that right now. But it doesn’t mean it’s wrong, and it doesn’t mean that I should have jumped in and stopped them from following that choice or doing that thing, right? 

ANNA: That just sparked something to me because also the reverse. So, bear with me. The stakes are a little bit lower when they’re younger, and sometimes we’ll hear people say, well, I pushed them to do the thing they didn’t want to do, and they ended up having fun. They ended up enjoying it. And so, that’s an interesting thing because right. And there’s nothing wrong about that necessarily. But I think it’s interesting when you look at it through this lens because it kind of chips away.

And so while you were saying, sometimes they do something and it goes awry, maybe sometimes they make a choice not to go somewhere and they have a regret later, or they think, maybe I would’ve liked that. Or their sibling went and had fun and they feel bad. But that’s learning. That’s them learning about themselves versus thinking, I don’t make good decisions, so someone else needs to make the decision for me. I don’t know what’s best for me, so someone else needs to do it.

So it’s not about the mistake, that’s where the learning is. And so if we can, when the stakes are low, really allow that in childhood, they’re building this resilience, this understanding of themselves how to change and pivot when they realize, I wish I’d done that, or I wish I hadn’t done that, or whatever the case might be. We’re giving them an opportunity to learn more about themselves because the stakes get higher, and what I didn’t want is for them to be second guessing those feelings of safety.

When the stakes are higher in the future, I really wanted them to tune into that inner voice and if it meant them not going to the event with us, which was probably neither here nor there, if that helped them build that understanding of themselves and that trust in their voice, that worth way more than the show or the photo op or the family Christmas, you know? 

And so I think just really looking at this broader picture and bringing this lens to it, thinking about how do we develop an inner voice? How do we develop a strong inner voice that serves us? I think that’s really fascinating when we look at these relationships.

ERIKA: Those conversations can be so interesting too. And I’ve had lots of those situations where it feels like there’s something in their inner voice that’s saying they might not be interested in this thing, but it’s not a strong No, it’s a, I don’t really know enough about it.

There’s all this nuance to it. So I really feel like if we can go into the conversations without the agenda of, my way’s the right way. I have to try to convince them as hard as I can to do this thing. Then they might be open enough to have conversations where we can ask, what is it about it that feels bad?

What is it about it that you are interested in? And just kind of figure out what the pieces are. I might have told this story before, but when we were at this trampoline place, I just had the sense that Oliver would love to jump on the trampoline, but he was standing on the edge and saying he could not do it.

And so we just kept watching and looking and I was saying, it looks like you know you’re interested in it or it looks like that might be fun for you. You love jumping, kind of thing. And so in the end he did end up doing it, but it was this whole process of, let me hear the concerns. Let’s talk about what it’s like.

Let’s look around and see how safe it seems. And I think in that case it was probably because there were so many other kids there. And so just reassuring him that I was right there and I wouldn’t be leaving. That was the big thing for him at that time. But I wouldn’t have known that necessarily.

He could have been scared he was going to get hurt or he could have been worried  about any number of things. And so I think that’s what’s kind of interesting about this is the conversations and what you can learn about, about your kids.

PAM: What helped me do that was that patience lens. To just be patient. And as I’ve learned later, not having an agenda. Because the conversations aren’t like that. Those conversations aren’t very fruitful if they feel like they have a leading energy, even if we don’t say the words, because the energy is just so big. It’s not just about the word.

So even if we don’t try to convince them, there’s a tone, a rising end to the question. There is just a leading energy when it’s something that we think would be good for them. And the other piece I wanted to mention that I think is so valuable is that we can also feel like at this moment that maybe we’ll never come to a trampoline place again. Like this has to happen now. And the idea, Anna, that there’s plenty of time, your plenty of time mantra, that we have talked about on the podcast before. It’s okay to say no and regret doesn’t mean it was a mistake.

This is all just learning. Next time you can make a different choice. Right? And I think that it’s something that’s beautiful for them to bring with them as they get older and situations become a little more nuanced. Situations may have more implications.

But there still is plenty of time. A similar choice is probably going to come up again. And what you’re learning from whatever your choice is and however it unfolds, is knowledge you will be able to bring with you. The next time a similar situation arises because it really will.

ANNA: Yeah, yeah, for sure. We’ll get lots of chances. I’m going to go back to the trampoline example because I think what’s so beautiful about that is, and I think it can be kind of a litmus test. Is, am I leading them towards an outcome? Am I leading him towards jumping or am I leading him towards understanding himself better?

And that was really what you were describing there. So, I just wanted to put words to it because what you were helping him do was tease out the pieces of, this feels scary, or I’m not sure about that. Or what about this? And that’s helping him listen to his inner voice, maybe giving words to some things he might not have experience with.

But it wasn’t with the idea that I’m going to talk you into jumping because I know you’re going to like jumping. You saw a little glimmer of, I think he’s interested in this. I want to dig in a little bit more. And I think that’s just that litmus test. Do I have this outcome that I think is best or am I really just giving them, like we’re talking about in this whole episode, space to cultivate that inner voice, listen to it, ask some questions, and move forward no matter what, because maybe that time he wasn’t going to be ready. He wanted to take all that in and next time you’d come back he’d be ready to do the jump. And that would’ve been just fine too. So I love that piece.

And I think that’s the nuance of are we leading them towards an outcome we want or are we giving them space to really hear themselves and recognizing that, yes, sometimes, we can all get confused and feel a little nervous about this thing. And then I can talk to somebody that helps me figure out how I’m feeling. So, I think that’s a beautiful nuance.

ERIKA: Yes. And that made me think about the conversations that we have really help us. Even just a regular conversation. So maybe not even in that high stakes moment is what I’m thinking about, right?

Not when we’re standing on the edge of a trampoline, but when we’re just hanging out, having conversations where we’re showing that people have different feelings and opinions about things. People are different. And really talking to our kids about how people are different.

Maybe not even using myself as an example because I know sometimes there’s some weight to that of like, this is what I think is best. Right? And so then kids can be influenced thinking, oh, well mom likes that. But just saying, this guy feels nervous about going off the curb on the street. This other guy climbs up Yosemite with no ropes.

So people have different feelings about safety and climbing, things like that. And so then when we’re in places. Where they’re listening to their bodies and listening to themselves about, does this feel safe to me? They have that experience of some people feel really comfortable with this, some people don’t, and that’s okay.

How do I feel? And opinions about things too, asking their opinions about things rather than saying, this is good, this is bad. This is what I like, and so therefore you should like it. And I really think it’s a red flag that I’m not listening to their inner voice if I find myself trying really hard to convince them to do something.

So, I can recognize that and realize that I have a bit of an expectation. I’m just hoping that they’ll like this thing, that I have stopped listening to what their real opinions are about it.

PAM: I think that is super, super valuable because it does not help to put expectations of perfection on ourselves, right?

It’s like, what are the clues that, for me, I might be pushing past something that I have the intention of not doing. Who do I want to be? What kind of parent do I want to be? Just noticing even after an interaction. Because things are going to go sideways with our kids. They are going to feel like we pushed them or we were trying to convince them even if we didn’t mean to. But that’s a learning experience for us too. Looking at the exchange. 

Did it feel like I kind of tipped over a line? How was I feeling? What was it? What was my capacity? Maybe I’m looking for bigger picture patterns in my life, just to find the clues to help me be the person that I want to be. And I want to be someone who cultivates and supports my child listening to and learning their inner voice. I know you’re talking about putting words to their inner voice, because sometimes it’s just a feeling.

That’s what processing is. It’s figuring out and putting words to the things that we’re feeling that are bubbling up for us. Maybe our inner voice is trying to communicate with us or trying to just knock on our brain for a moment. So,I think that it is a beautiful thing to be able to look for the little clues in our lives because they are unique to us.

People are different again. And what are the little pieces that can help me find a moment to just help myself switch a little bit to be more of the person I want to be in the moment because yeah, it’s never perfect. And to put an expectation on our relationship that things are going to be perfect doesn’t help.

That changes our inner voice as well, because all of a sudden trying to meet expectations which are out there or even if they’re expectations we’re putting on ourselves, they’re outside weights that we’re putting on. Right. And that tamps down any inner voices and then we have more work to do. 

ANNA: Right. I think that when you have that feeling like you were describing Erika, because we’ve all had it, like I’m pushing a little bit hard here. That’s my cue to ask. where’s that coming from? Because again, I really do believe our inner voice doesn’t seek to control others. I think that’s outside expectations.

I think that’s baggage that we’re hearing. And so that’s my first little clue. And that’s why I say ‘there’s plenty of time’ all the time because it slows me down. If there’s plenty of time for them to try this thing, do this thing, I can slow down and tease apart what are the expectations I’m bringing to it, what kind of outside voices are influencing me in this moment?

And so remembering there is plenty of time is key for me. You two know, I use it all the time to just slow myself down because I can just get on a track and I really do miss the little cues from the people around me. 

ERIKA: And I feel like it’s even harder to remember that there’s plenty of time if the decisions feel more intense, maybe things related to their health or things about food or if they’re having an interest that feels scary to us.

These more activating moments with our kids where it feels like if I can’t convince them that I know what’s right, things might just go off the rails. Even in those times, there’s plenty of time is super helpful. And remembering that their inner voice applies to things like their body’s health and what they should eat and what they’re interested in.

All of those things too. And people are different in those areas as well. And so if we can just still keep some of that open, curious mindset, even in those heavier weighted areas that we may feel like we have super strong beliefs about. That’s just going to help them feel supported and know that they can trust us to do this processing and figure out what works for them.

PAM: For me, that’s what it boils down to. That patience lens was so helpful. Plenty of time is helpful. Being open and curious helps me with patience. All those ideas just weave together for me when it comes to helping each person listen to, hear or act from, even if they don’t quite understand their inner voice but to make the choices that feel best in this moment. Within what’s going on for them and what’s going on around them.

ANNA: Because I think that creating that environment is part of letting them know there’s plenty of time. You may be getting some mixed messages inside of you. Slow it down and take your time because your body’s going to tell you, you’re going to learn things and it’s okay to try. I’m grateful for this episode because I think it is really something that we all want, we want our kids to listen to their inner voice.

But bringing some intention to what it looks like to create that space is really cool.

ERIKA: Can I add one more little thing I just thought of? 

ANNA: Yes, please! 

ERIKA: Okay. So, for those things like health and food and scary interests and things that have weight, but also the expectations of outside people also can feel like a weight.

And so one thing that I want to remind myself is that listening to your inner voice is more important than what some outside person is thinking about what you’re doing. As an example, if they’re feeling like there’s too many people in here and that they need to leave, but this is at a family party, to me, it’s more important that they are tuning into that and knowing that they’re feeling overwhelmed and stepping away, rather than worrying about disappointing these other family members. And so, really valuing that inner voice development in the kids more than what the outside people are saying.

ANNA: And I think something that happens there is we actually give people permission to do that themselves. I definitely would have that with my oldest. I would just frame it like, I love it that she knows herself so well that she needs some space right now.

And I mean, invariably somebody would say. I wish I was better at that, or, there are times I want to get out of here and then it becomes light and laughter. Whereas I have absolutely had the feelings you’re talking about there too, where I’m thinking, are we hurting somebody’s feelings? Is the host going to think we don’t like them?

But that’s outside, right? My inner voice isn’t trying to control anyone and can share those beautiful connecting pieces. That outside voice is when I’m trying to control all the things. And so it’s just that litmus test.

PAM: And those were moments when, over time, where I would just step in and I would just actively share the positive perspective, right?

It’s protective of the person who just needs to do whatever it is they need to do. Also, like you were saying, it’s planting that seed that it’s okay. And I’m almost talking to myself when I am talking about how that’s a positive thing and a great thing to do.

Like they say, I wish I could and I say, I wish I could.

ANNA: Oh my goodness. Okay. As always, so much fun, you two. Thank you both for being here, and thank you to everyone who is listening. We hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey and just your journey in life in general. And if these kinds of conversations are fun for you, please, please, please join us at the Living Joyfully Network.

We have so much fun and so many interesting conversations. I get so much out of it every day. I am so grateful for it. We would love to see you there and you can learn more about it in the show notes. You can visit livingjoyfully.ca/network or livingjoyfullyshop.com. We hope to see you there and thanks so much for listening!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the popular maxim known as the Golden Rule, which states, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

Once we realize how different people are, however, we can see how treating others how we would like to be treated may fall short in our relationships. We dive into an updated version, “Treat others how they would like to be treated,” which really means learning more about the people we care about. Using this phrase as a guide can serve to deepen our relationships and strengthen our feelings of connection.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello, to you both. And today we’re going to talk about life beyond the Golden Rule. I’m looking forward to diving into this one. 

But before we get started, have you visited Living joyfully shop.com lately? Our online shop has Pam’s unschooling books, lots of helpful coaching options and online courses such as Four Pillars of Unschooling, if you’re newer to unschooling and Navigating Conflict, if you’d like ideas to help you navigate conflicts in your relationships. We also have courses on Validation and navigating Unschooling Wobbles at the shop. You can learn more about the Living Joyfully network, as well. We’re excited to be creating a one-stop shop to support you along your unschooling journey, and we hope you’ll check it out.

And Pam, would you like to get us started about the Golden Rule?

PAM: Sure. And to get us all started on the same foot, The Golden Rule is basically – treat others as you would like them to treat you. It’s kind of wrapping it up, and I do think that can be a great start on the journey of exploring and choosing how we treat other people.

It’s a reminder to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes to imagine how we’d like to be treated in those circumstances. And that comes with the assumption built into it that we treat ourselves reasonably nicely and then consider doing that instead of reacting more negatively. Right? It is just a nice reminder to treat people nicely, and I think it’s got that nice hook of putting yourself in the situation.

What we want to talk about today is taking that next step beyond the golden rule. I think it is to bring in what is becoming one of our mantras. People are different. Because in some situations, even in many situations, the way that I’d like to be treated may be very different from how someone else would like to be treated.

I mean, as I was thinking about this, it reminded me of a question you asked recently in the network, Anna, how do you like to be comforted when you’re sad or upset? It’s been so interesting to read the replies to that, right? Because while there are definitely some similarities between the answers, there are definitely some distinct differences and so many nuances.

Because we’re real people. So what helps me move beyond the golden rule really is to try to see the situation through their eyes. That’s that next little shift that helps me. So if I was them, what would this look like? What would it feel like? Doing that means considering their personality, their likes, their dislikes, their strengths, the things they find challenging.

All those pieces that make up who they are. And then from there, I feel much better equipped to empathize with them, to validate their view of things.  And we’re in that space to share suggestions that are a better fit for them, rather than sharing the things I’d want to do in their shoes. So, it is just that little flip that really helps take it beyond the golden rule of putting myself into everybody else’s shoes and what I would like to happen, so that the world is all about me.

And then recognizing that people are different. And in this situation, what does it look like to the other person? 

ANNA: I do feel like it’s a great place for people to start, right? Because it’s that idea of being kinder and thinking, how would I want to be treated?

And that gives you that little bit of pause, which is always so important. I remember when I was first thinking about this, which has been, gosh, like 25 years ago now. I switched  it to – treat everyone how they want to be treated. That was my quick around. I love now that we have over the years really gone into what you talk about, Pam, which is again, seeing through their eyes.

Because I think whatever visual helps you to really pull back a little bit and understand them. So, wondering, how do they want to be treated? That’s where we can get curious, right? We can think, we are different and we can leave space for what they want in this moment?

Because that question was a perfect example from the network. Some wanted to be left alone, some wanted to be held, some wanted to be talked to, some to process. And that’s just with one tiny little thing of how do you like to be comforted in a situation? There’s so many ways of how you want to interact?

What kind of jobs do you want? What kind of places do you want to go? How do you like to spend your time? All of these things come into play when we think about how we move through situations differently. And if we are thinking, I want to treat them how I want to be treated, we’re going to miss a lot.

And I think it can actually be really disconnecting, which is sad because that’s not the intent behind the golden rule. It isn’t to create a disconnect, but I think if you think about it, it really can. If someone is treating you in the way that they want to  be treated, but it doesn’t feel like they see you or really are honoring you, or know who you are at that moment, it can feel really disconnecting.

ERIKA: Oh, I really like that. And, when I was thinking about the intention that a lot of us have, as unschooling parents with our kids and with our families, we really do intend to have this deep connection, these strong relationships.

And so if that’s the intention, then we have to go beyond the golden rule to really hearing what the other person likes, what really works for them. Sometimes it’s an easier thing to just be like, well, what would I like in this situation? And then we’ll just assume that’s what everyone likes and just do that.

So it may take a little bit more time and digging and curiosity and asking the people, how did it feel when I did that? What would work better for you in that situation? Like that question in the network, How do you like to be comforted is so huge and it reminds me, if I’m sick I want attention and if my husband’s sick he wants to be left alone. And that is just one part of life. This one small thing where if I treat him the way I want to be treated, I would be doting on him all day and giving him a lot of attention and asking him about his symptoms and trying to figure things out. Because that’s what feels better to me. 

But if he leaves me alone, which he does, or if I am too  in his business, which I would tend to do for him, it’s like we are missing what actually really feels good to each other. I think I could come up with a million examples of just little differences between me and my kids, me and my husband, where if I were to put myself in their shoes, I’m going to make a completely different decision than they will.

PAM: I love that you brought up intention because that’s a really huge piece of it. What is my intention here? That helps me broaden my perspective when I am considering and talking to them and asking them. And we can write stories. If I was putting myself in your shoes, if I’m sick and wanting people to come and ask and to talk about symptoms and to try and help and somebody isn’t coming, we can be telling the story to ourselves that they don’t care. They’re just happy for me to be sick, Versus understanding other people and where they’re coming from. So it doesn’t mean that we’re all perfectly acting. You know what I mean? But it is such a great reminder, even in those moments when we’re literally not connecting and talking to people to understand that the story that we’re writing might not be what’s actually going on.

ANNA: Yeah, that’s definitely where I was going. Which is just, then it creates the stories, right? Then we write the story of what it means, but it’s really the same piece in that we’re writing the story of what would that action mean if we were doing it. So what would the action mean of me not checking on you if I were doing it, so if in your case, Erika it might mean that you don’t like the person. You don’t have time for them or whatever. It might be the reason you would ignore someone if they were not feeling well. But for Josh, that’s not at all what he’s thinking. 

And I’m more like him in that I just want to be left alone. I like check-ins periodically if I’m super sick. But not a lot of questions and a lot of other things. Because it just feels like weight to me. But that’s what’s so cool about this is you can see just even this little exchange in conversation, we’re learning more about each other and so when we can bring that kind of curiosity to it and no weight about what it means or thinking there’s one right way or any of those pieces, it becomes kind of fun to figure out and ask the questions.

And I think sometimes maybe we haven’t been encouraged to ask the questions or to be curious. We kind of had this idea of, okay, a person’s sick, you take care of them in X, Y, Z way. Maybe our parents passed that on to us or we got it from movies or wherever. But isn’t it kind of neat to just say, what do you want when you’re not feeling good? And here’s what I want and here’s what I’ve been thinking about and just opening up more lines of communication to kind of understand these deeper pieces. Because I think sometimes as humans or especially now, we may think that people aren’t interested in those things, but our closest people really are interested and I think if we model that, being interested in them, it really can help.

ERIKA: I like rewriting it to, what you were saying, Anna. Try to treat others as they want to be treated themselves. But, right. I think maybe it feels like they would tell me if it wasn’t working for them. You may have to get extra curious and really just check in with the people, which I just think would bring so much to the relationship too. Because that’s the thing that I love about it,  let’s learn more about the people in our lives. It’s just so interesting. And the more that we can just be curious and ask these questions, when I did that, how did it feel? And that may feel like a question that has never been asked in your whole life. And so it may feel a little bit awkward to have conversations like that, but it really is how you figure out more about the people in your lives and the people that you want to be close to.

So I think that  kind of a shortcut of the golden rule when you’re just out in public, pushing your shopping cart to the side because that’s what you would like for other people to do. Those kinds of things work. But when it’s these close connections and people that you really want to be close to. Then asking the questions and just checking in and giving them the narration of, when I am having this situation, I love it when other people do this or, I really feel supported when you do this for me. Just to give information. I think it’s just another thing that can help us deepen our relationships.

PAM: I really think that helps so much with the connection, the understanding, the empathy, the ability to see through someone else’s eyes more deeply because, we’re guessing, we’re trying. And then you’ve got some who aren’t so much into conversations, so then you’re like trying something and seeing what the reaction, how does that unfold and trying different things.

It doesn’t literally need to be conversations, but the exchange of information being open and curious about it, whether you’re looking for clues or you’re asking questions. I think one little thing that was helpful for me was if someone was sick and not feeling well, when someone’s off or it’s a challenging moment, in the actual moment isn’t a great time to have the conversation.

But it doesn’t mean we don’t, we can talk about it a little bit later and then to be able to bring that understanding next time. When Rocco’s sick, and he likes to be checked on and I’m more of a, I’ll let you know if I need something.

We can make that little joke. It can lighten because, I’m seeing this through your eyes and I want to treat you the way you would like to be treated. And I have the capacity to do this, so it’s a deeper level we were talking about, of those stronger relationships.

To be able to even just on a meta level, discuss this depth of understanding we have of the other person and bring that into the conversation as well, because we can also change over time.

ANNA: Right. I feel like it might feel more awkward than it is. Because as you all were talking, I was thinking I do tend to like to be left alone in a lot of different situations.

But really, I think if someone asked me a question like that, I would feel pretty seen by that. Because it’s not like they’re pushing something on me. They’re asking, Hey, what would feel good to you? Or did this feel okay? Or, this is what I’m thinking or what I like. That would be interesting to me.

That would be an interesting conversation. I might not want it to be really, really long. But I think I would feel really seen by that. So it’s interesting to think even when you know you have a child that maybe doesn’t like to have big, long conversations. Sometimes I wonder if that’s because we are kind of inserting our piece into the communication of that conversation maybe a little bit more strongly, and maybe ‘not liking conversations, is a sign we’re not hearing them.

We’re not giving them a chance to say what’s happening for them. So, I don’t know. I think it’s interesting to just play with the idea. Again, it’s just learning more about each other and learning more about how we want to have these conversations? Is it better to have some kind of trial and error and do different things?

Is it better to have that conversation before or after, or a little bit during, you know, that’s the fun of learning to live with other people and figuring out what makes sense.

ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. And it’s kind of inspiring me to maybe ask that question a little bit more often with my kids. Because I think one thing that can happen is, we get in the role of parent or, this is how I’ve always done it. But we know that our kids change as they grow. And so, it totally makes sense to keep checking in. Even if you used to love this, is it still feeling good? Or, I really love when someone does this, how does it feel to you? Just those little curious questions to get to know them better.

PAM: Yeah. And I think I really like that perspective of not just like, okay, I know you now, even with other adults, even with your partner, because I know myself, things change over time. The way I like to show up to things, the things that I like to show up for, the things that have kind of run their course and now I’m not really interested in them as much anymore.

Just helping other people understand us. And just sharing, like you were talking about narrating there before, Erika. Like just being able to share those little pieces along the way so that we continue to understand and even celebrate those changes. Not make someone feel bad that they have changed.

You don’t like that anymore. We used to have so much fun doing that together. I’m going to miss that. Versus really diving into who they are right now.

ANNA: Right. We’re making a big deal otherwise. I just thought of an example from my life. So in the early years, everyone that knows me would have said, Anna doesn’t like to hug. Pam, you probably even knew that about me from 25 years ago. It’s interesting, as I did work on my trauma and my pieces, turns out that I do actually like to hug people, especially people that I’m close to or friends with or really in a lot of different environments. But because it was like a thing, people make a big deal about it – wait! You don’t like that! And so, then it’s just like, okay, nope, I don’t like it. Forget it. It doesn’t give me room to change or grow. And so, I think that’s the piece, right? The open and curious piece of not assigning, whether it’s how we would see the situation or how we think they would see the situation.

Get more information or leave space for it to unfold. And I think that is just worth so much more than just the golden rule and ending there. But I also like what you said too, Erika, just about the golden rule, out in the supermarket. It makes a lot of sense. It’s a very good place to start. I want to be kind to people. I would like them to be kind to me. That feels nice. And then in my closer relationships, in my more intimate relationships, what’s that next step to really deepen that connection and understanding of each other.

ERIKA: Well, this has been a lot of fun. I really love this little topic, so I hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an a-ha moment or got some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these types of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. You can learn more at living joyfully.ca/network or on living joyfully shop.com, and we hope to meet you there. So, thanks for listening, and we will see you next time.

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating disagreements with our partner. No matter how harmonious your relationship, disagreements will inevitably come up between two people. We share some tools that can help us navigate disagreements and give a few examples from our own lives where these have come into play.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Welcome to you both!

Today we are going to talk about navigating disagreements with our partner because that’s something that happens. We’re different people after all. But before we dive in, we would like to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.

There is so much value in doing that deep personal work that the Unschooling journey asks of us in community because while everyone’s journey is definitely unique, we all face similar obstacles and challenges, and I think that’s where the power of community shines because you are no longer alone. You are part of a group of like-minded individuals who are on a similar journey, who acknowledge and encourage you. 

As you walk alongside each other you can learn from their experiences, draw inspiration from their aha moments, gain insights from the unique and creative ways they navigate their family’s day-to-day needs and disagreements with their partner. It’s not just about getting answers to your questions. It’s about exchanging ideas, broadening perspectives, and just feeling part of something bigger.

One of our members, Carolyn shared, “The Living Joyfully Network is truly a global community of strangers who become friends, a group of people who are living intentionally, hearing each other, holding space for one another, supporting one another, lifting each other up and inspiring one another.”

And, I just got goosebumps again because that’s how I feel when I step into the Network every day.

So to learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu.

And now Anna, would you like to get us started?

ANNA: I would! I feel like learning how to navigate disagreements is so important for any relationship because there are going to be times when we don’t see eye to eye and finding ways to express our needs and to really hear the other person is critical to finding mutually agreeable solutions and just living joyfully together. 

Not surprisingly, I’m going to start with understanding that people are different. We really see the world differently. We prioritize different things. We have different histories and triggers that show up in different places in our lives.

And so when we start there, I think it allows us to not bring defensiveness into the equation when there’s a disagreement. We can be curious like, okay, wow, they’re seeing this really differently than I am, what’s going on? I want to understand, versus they’re seeing this differently, there’s something wrong with me, I’ve done something wrong. This is when we’re making it about us. And so I think that really understanding differences and getting excited and curious about it is a big, big important first step in this idea of navigating these disagreements.

Remember, this is somebody that you love. This is a partner, someone you’ve chosen to spend your life with. And I mean, I want to understand my partner. I want him to feel seen and heard, and you both want to feel comfortable with the decisions you’re making as a family because that just feels better.

It just feels better when you can get to that place of understanding each other. And the tools that we talk about so often come into play. Honestly, I’m not even sure if we can cover them all, so maybe we’ll just pick a few really important ones. The first one that really comes to mind for me when we have a disagreement is validation.

Because that’s our chance to really hear and to validate what your partner is telling you. And remember, you do not have to agree with somebody to validate their experience and you don’t have to change your mind to find a solution. Because I think that’s where we dig in. Thinking, I’ve been researching unschooling for years and they don’t know anything and I’m just going to dig my heels in.

But we’re missing that nuance of what’s happening for that other person. When we get defensive about it, when we dig our heels in. We don’t have to change our mind to really hear. This is feeling hard for you. This isn’t making sense for you. You’re feeling worried or nervous about this.

Validation helps move from that surface level statement to what the underlying needs are, and what I found is that, so often in that space of underlying needs, there’s common ground. We love our kids, we want our kids to feel good and to have a good life. We can find that common ground.

And from there then we’re able to move towards, okay, and how do we get to that? How do we navigate all of those pieces? Remembering that their concerns are a reflection of what’s happening for them. It’s not a commentary or a criticism of you. I think that’s important because it may be reflecting a little bit of disconnection.

Maybe your partner happens to work outside of the home and maybe doesn’t have the connection that you have, and so those concerns are a reflection of that. It’s not a commentary about you, it really is just. Oh wow. They don’t see these pieces. I want them to feel safe and comfortable, you know?

And so I think just that little bit of shifting your mindset around it and moving to that place of listening and validating really can help the energy of those conversations come down and it becomes this collaboration.

ERIKA: Yeah, the defensiveness is the enemy of validation.

That’s the thing that just makes it so hard in that moment. So, noticing that defensiveness in myself as a red flag, this is something where something is triggering me with what they’re saying. How can I move through that so that I can validate? 

What people bump up against with validation is ideas like, but I know that this is better. I have to try to convince the other person. I have to try to convince my partner because otherwise, it’s all going to go off the rails. I know that this is important and I need to convince, and so, let me convince. I just need to figure out the right thing to say, to convince and defend my way and convince them.

It’s just the opposite of validating. But we need to remember that validation isn’t changing our mind. It’s not giving up. It’s not like now everything’s going to be just how they want it to be. It really is just about lowering the intensity of the conversation, having our partner feel understood and heard, and really being honest about our own vulnerable concerns and worries too. Because I think a lot of times if my husband has a concern about bedtime or whatever and tells me about it, I probably have concerns too. But my reaction is going to be to defend and say we’re doing this right and I know the way.

But really if we can both come at it as, okay, I have these concerns too. You have these concerns, this is real, and we are having these fears come up and it’s safe to talk about it. It’s safe to acknowledge you are having fears come up. And just really hearing, and validating means reflecting back what they’re saying and showing that you heard what they said and what they’re feeling.

I think it’s about understanding ourselves better, seeing what is a trigger and what’s causing defensiveness in ourselves, and then also knowing that the same thing is happening for them. They’re having their own triggers and having their own things that are being brought up from whatever their past is.

I think just being aware that all of that is happening underneath helps me come to it without that defensiveness. We’re just two different people. We have a lot of history of our own that’s coming into this and can we just take a moment to listen to each other?

PAM: Yeah, In my experience when I was not able to get to that validation place, where I just got stuck in that defensive place, we really were just batting it back and forth, trying to find the right words to convince the other person that we were right.

And it was just however long we managed to stay at it. Us just trying to say the exact same thing in a bit of different words, right? Trying to convince the other one why our way of looking at the thing was better or more right or whatever. And theirs was wrong. 

We were stuck in that somebody’s right, somebody’s wrong. Somebody has to give in. Somebody has to win. Somebody has to lose. That whole dynamic. But yes, my understanding of an ability to engage in validation shifted hugely when I realized or learned from Anna and the world at that time, that I didn’t have to agree with what they were saying to be able to validate their experience. That was a game changer for me because it helped me to recognize the importance and the value of seeing situations and circumstances through their eyes as well as my own. Understanding myself to a new level.  And triggers, those are always a big piece of it too. Recognizing triggers our own, and understanding they’re from our past experiences and they are our truth, right?

But coming to recognize that their perspective is as valid to them as mine is, to me. Releasing that whole right wrong dynamic and judgment piece is hard. Because the way we see things is absolutely our truth, right? But that was really the way. When the other person, and think about ourselves. When we feel seen and heard, it’s like, oh, like I can put down the shield, I can put down the defensiveness.

It’s like, okay, you hear me. You see my energy in reaction to whatever has come up. And now I  feel like I can be so much more open. And I find that when the other person feels seen and heard, like that’s when we can move out of discussions about this moment. Like, we’re not stuck here and actually start to meet each other where we are.

So, that’s what was going through my mind, Anna, when you were talking about our partners being out of the house a good chunk of the day. They don’t see X, Y, and Z. So it’s not me trying to convince them and bat them over the head. It’s me meeting them with, if I didn’t know that, I would think that too. If I didn’t see all these other little pieces, like I can meet them where they are. 

And then that’s where our more fruitful conversations that actually make some progress will be. That’s where we can talk about ourselves as human beings, as in people are different. This is the way I saw the thing. This is the way you saw the thing. Again, not right, wrong, not judging, but understanding the different perspectives. 

And when we feel seen and heard, we can be so much more open to how things might unfold from there. We don’t have to come up with an answer. I think that’s the other thing in a disagreement, maybe where we want to move forward is let’s keep this in the back of our minds and then we’ll be maybe messaging each other over the next week or two.

Because now that that’s bubbling up for us, we’re going to be paying a little bit more attention. We’re going to be noticing the things in front of us that relate to whatever we’re having a disagreement about, right? And then we can come to a more commonplace together that incorporates all our pieces.

When the energy is down and we’re not feeling that defensiveness, we can be more open. It doesn’t have to be our solution. And it may end up being how we move forward weeks and months, is not the way either one of us first came to it. The disagreement, right? It’s like a new way makes sense..

This makes sense to you, and together we can walk down this path, but when you’re stuck in that defensiveness stage, you’re never going to be able to, or very rarely going to be able to get to the common path forward. The path that works for both of you. And validation really is that first step to take the energy out of that defensiveness.

ANNA: Right. Right. And it does help move us from that black and white right and wrong paradigm. I think it’s so critical and all of these pieces that we’re going to talk about are related, but  I’m just going to highlight it. It’s assuming positive intent, which we talk about a lot as well.

And what I’ve found is that it helps give me a little bit of a pause.Okay, let me just turn my thinking brain on versus my defensive maybe more primal brain. I just want to assume positive intent. They’re trying to figure something out.

They’re trying to understand something about our family, or they love their kids, or they love me. And it’s interesting because I’ve had people say. How can it be positive intent if they’re grumping about this or whatever? The next step of assuming positive intent is they’re doing the best they can in that moment.

Something is dysregulating to them and they are trying to figure out how to feel more regulated. Like they’re trying to figure out how, what can I control or do that will make me feel better? So when I can recognize, oh, that’s it. I can have so much more compassion. So again, it’s not about me, that’s information about them and their state of mind and what’s happening for them.

And me actually coming in with that defensive energy can just cause them to double down. Everything just kind of derails from there. And so when I can come from an assuming positive intent, compassionate space. It opens things up and I think that validation is that first step because that’s when we can feel heard. If we don’t feel heard, most likely you’re going to get louder.

And so, if we can feel heard, then a lot of times it can bring that energy down. And when I’m assuming positive intent, it’s easier to validate. For some people this is more of a trigger than others, but I definitely have a friend, who if she feels we are not giving her a generous assumption, it is very hurtful because she knows she’s coming from a place with a big heart trying to solve something.

And so if someone makes a judgment about her, thinking that she’s not coming from that place, it’s really hurtful and it derails. And this trust that we talked about a few weeks ago, it really derails that. So when we can come to someone assuming positive intent, they feel that energy, they feel that connection.

They feel understood and see we are trying, and that we’re trying to have a conversation and we want to help them get regulated and feel better to move through this upset. And so I think for me, assuming positive intent is just, it’s a reminder. It slows me down, it connects me with the person I want to be, which is to show up with compassion for the people in my life.

And so I think it’s another one that I just wanted us to highlight today. 

ERIKA: It’s a huge one for me and a challenging one for me. What happens in my life is, maybe Josh will make a meal that has something that I said I don’t like. And then rather than assume positive intent, which is that he’s trying to make a good meal for everyone.

I assume, I write a story that he doesn’t care about me, he wants to serve things I don’t like. I mean, this is when I’m at my low points. So assuming positive intent to me is, it’s not about me. I need to tell people what’s going on for me. People can’t read your mind. That part to me works right into assuming positive intent. So if I haven’t shared that something’s bothering me and someone does it. It’s not because they’re trying to hurt me, it’s because they can’t read my mind. And so assuming positive intent is a way to avoid getting defensive.

And so then that’s the path towards then being able to validate and have more productive conversations. I used to bristle at the idea of it’s not about me because I feel like I just want it to be about me, and why wouldn’t it be about me? Why wouldn’t he know everything about what I like and what I need and be able to read my mind and be able to predict what would be good for me?

This is major work for me to do in relationship, and it just helps so much. If I can think, okay, that’s a different person, not inside of my mind, another person who’s doing the absolute best that he can at all times. And assuming that what he’s doing is, is either trying to help himself feel better, trying to help the family, or just making the decisions that he thinks are the best in the moment. Then I can open up communication rather than shutting down, assuming the worst and getting really worried about everything in that way. So yeah, assuming positive intent is a bit of a growth area for me.

I also want to mention a funny validation story, which is that I was talking to Anna one day and she was giving examples of how she had validated someone else and I was like, oh, I just feel so much better, me in that moment. Just hearing the words of validation, you have so much going on. This has been so hard. Just those things where it really feels like someone is seeing and hearing you. It helps so much to bring people’s anxiety, energy, all of that down. So anyway, I thought it was really funny that you don’t even really have to be directly validated to just have that type of language just to feel so good.

PAM: Yeah, being in that energy really helps the ground. So many things are weaving together. I think we can get caught up in looking for perfection. I remember at my lower points, just watching to see what they would do. The whole reading your mind thing, right? Well, they should know me well enough and I can just count all the things that they did wrong, that they should know that I don’t like that. Just making that bit all about me, but not sharing the expectation that I said this once, three months ago when we were out at a party. Where would this random piece of information about me go in their brain to stay there that now it would pop right back up. Anyway, that was interesting. Thanks for that little trip down memory lane. 

But the really important piece I think of assuming positive intent is something you mentioned, Anna. In this moment, they’re doing their best in this moment because assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring what actually happened and just assuming that it was meant positively and perfectly and lovingly. No, it’s what’s happening in this moment and that’s giving us information. Maybe last week when a very similar moment happened they reacted or responded beautifully, or their choice in that moment felt perfect to me. And then why this week are they making a different choice that is knocking me for a loop that I’m not happy with, et cetera. That doesn’t mean assuming positive intent doesn’t mean ignoring those people, those moments, right?

Having that expectation that once they’ve managed to do it the right way, that makes me feel good, so we don’t have a disagreement and from now on they’ll be able to do that thing. But because it is in the moment, it is so important to recognize maybe their capacity is down, maybe other things are bothering them.

That’s why we talk about context so much. So when they’re doing something differently than maybe before, that’s causing us to get our back up. It could just be something completely different. Right? So I found being able to assume that positive intent, even if their initial motivation in that moment wasn’t particularly positive, maybe they were trying to get a rise out of us or whatever, but  that is so much more about them and something else that’s going on. 

I don’t need to take the bait, so to speak. I can still assume positive intent, meaning that they’re doing the best they can in this moment. So the question becomes more, what is different about this moment? Is something up? Are you worried about something? That can be the direction that the conversation goes versus just the defensiveness. And why did you say that? Or why did you do that? Or, I don’t like peppers or whatever it is. Take the context. It’s not faking it or telling ourselves some erroneous story when we assume positive intent, even if maybe that’s not what they’re bringing because there’s a reason for whatever they’re bringing.

ANNA: I love that because, again, it’s not making it about us, it’s bringing that compassion to the moment. I think we can turn it around because sometimes that’s helpful for people. It’s helpful for me to go, okay, I’ve been dysregulated and I’ve said some pretty yucky things to people that I love and how different it is to be met with, Hey, are you okay? Or do you need something versus, don’t talk to me that way? Or, why are you being like this? Or you’re this terrible person?

We are trying to do the best we can and when we’re dysregulated and under-resourced, it can come out in a harsh way. And so, I just want to be able to offer compassion especially with this person that we love and are sharing our life with because it moves us through things faster. Like we get back to our connection point, which is where we both feel safer and more comfortable.

And so it just leads us there, which I love. And now if you’re talking about a pattern of this that goes on for longer then looking at the context of what’s happening, there’s something else. But so often these are kind of isolated events when we get upset. 

The next one I want to talk about is no set outcome. And we talk about this a lot when we’re talking about solving things with the whole family. Like when we’re talking about how we find solutions to things when we have people with these different needs. 

But I think it really comes into play here because if we’re going into this disagreement thinking, okay, this has to be the solution for us, or we have failed and they’re thinking this has to be the solution or it’s not okay. It’s very hard to get anywhere with that. And this is again, about getting to those underlying needs because we can have this disagreement about bedtime or whatever it is. If we get to the underlying needs, we can often find that wiggle room for solutions. 

Interestingly, I have found, even if both parties aren’t in agreement with this, it helps me not to come with an agenda, because even just that calms the energy a little bit. They don’t feel like they have to defend their position as harshly, like you said, Pam, like, how many ways can I say the same thing to defend my position, even if they’re not bought into this concept, but we are talking about someone you love. This is actually a conversation we can have. Hey, we’re going to figure this out. I want to hear everything you’re saying. And this is something we do with our kids too. This is feeling hard right now. I don’t know exactly how we’re going to get through it, but let’s just put all the options on the table because the big piece here is there’s no one right way.

So when we understand that we can, it’s easier to let go of that set outcome or this agenda that we’re moving towards. And when we put it in the context of unschooling, I think it can be interesting because, especially if we have one partner that’s like researching and diving in and listening to all the podcasts and doing all the things.

You get excited, right? You’re excited about all these pieces and you know how it’s going to work, and you know what the best unschooling way to be is. And you can imagine if you step back for a minute, how disorienting that can be to a partner that is not aware of all of these things that are happening and maybe is just getting little bits or pieces and it can actually feel super disconnecting because sometimes, people make dramatic changes as they’re going down this path.

And so the partner’s thinking, we were on the same page here and now suddenly something’s changed. And so when we can let go of that one right way to just to share that this is the piece that excites me. This is the piece that’s really connecting for me that I see with our kids, or that I see in our life.

Then you’re having a conversation versus a bulleted list of what we should do, and then they’re giving a bulleted list of what we should do. That’s the complete opposite. We’re losing that kind of interplay and the connection that probably brought you together however many years ago.

I think it’s just really important to watch for an agenda. Watch for thinking that there’s a set outcome of convincing, because as you said, Pam, we kind of tunnel in on how do we convince and we miss a lot of information about our partner, but also about the context of the situation and our individual lives. Because as you and I, all of us say so many times, there’s no one unschooling family.

There’s no list of unschooling rules. We did a whole podcast series that there’s not and so I think that piece can really help with these disagreements, especially if they’re around some of these parenting pieces or unschooling pieces, It can just stop that charged energy. Just really bring the energy back to, how do we solve this for our family?

Let’s figure out something that feels good to all of us.

ERIKA:  When you first come to new ideas though, that excitement is really hard to contain. It’s hard to not just want to convince everyone in the world, like, come on, I just found the answer. Let’s do it. It’s challenging and so to me, no set outcome requires a pause in my own mind and thinking. I need to remind myself there’s not just one way. It’s going to be okay, however it works out. And being open and curious, that’s it. But it is hard. I feel it being challenging in my mind because I will get really pumped up about an idea. I will want to convince, I will want to share how amazing it is. And if I don’t get a response that they immediately see it, it is amazing and let’s do it, Then it can be really hard to move through.

And so, it’s internal work and practices of calming myself to say there’s space for different ideas. There’s not one right way. Even if we disagree, we can move through this. That if he has different ideas than me, that doesn’t mean that my ideas are wrong, but it just means there’s more communication that needs to happen.

So, I really value the idea of no set outcomes, but find it challenging at times.

PAM: Yes. So very challenging. I think for me, part of the work when I’m moving to that,  just bubbled up while you were talking, Erika. When it’s that energy that we were feeling, this is so exciting, let’s do this.

I want to talk myself through this probably isn’t the only way to get that energy. What I want is that excitement and that energy and that direction, but like to keep that at the forefront versus the plan, the one plan I came up with to get there. To recognize that there are so many ways and plans and that’s the whole thing. Not holding out that agenda, that set outcome or to me it’s that set path. To get there. When I can be more open to the possibilities. Again, like you’re saying, it doesn’t mean giving in or giving up or, or any of those, common ways to describe it.

But what that does is help, and you talked about this earlier, Anna, is just peeling back those layers to find and meet them where they are. Where is our common ground? Let’s find that common ground first. And then from there we can each feel the next step.

And then, from that common ground, we can so often take baby steps. Steps that make sense to both of us. It’s like, okay, so I see that mountain over there and that’s the direction I want to go. But maybe we’ll like to take this little jog in the path for a little while and jog and jog if we can stay in that common ground and then the baby step, and then see what comes from the baby step.

Maybe then we’re each learning and experiencing pieces and then the next baby step makes sense and the next baby step and then you can look up and say, oh yeah, we’re getting there. We took three steps and we’re a step closer but they’re feeling the same way. 

Even if their mountain’s over here and yours is over here, we’re taking baby steps together and coming to a place and we’re both understanding each other a little bit better and a little bit better, because it doesn’t mean that we have to come up with the path and the answer to this maybe huge life changing, decision, choice, disagreement, whatever it is.

We can take baby steps and check in, and we may find that we were just using different words and internally we were a lot closer than we imagined. But especially when you’re stuck in that defensiveness, you feel like you have to go to the opposite because you need more power.

So I need to be so strong to get you to come my way. But maybe I really didn’t need to hold to that so tightly. This little bit. I can do that a little bit. Baby steps kind of became my mantra with my partner.

Okay, well what’s the next baby step that makes sense to both of us, and then see where we are.

ANNA: Oh, I love that. And I’m going to take your little metaphor a bit further. So you’re walking towards your mountain and they’re walking towards their mountain. I love the baby steps, but I think what happens is you make a new mountain in the middle that serves your unique family and then you really are walking towards the same place. It’s not exactly what you thought because maybe you were in this mindset of this is what unschooling looks like, or whatever the thing is, and this is what parenting looks like to them.

But we found something that fits for our unique children, for our unique relationship, and that’s really beautiful. That is just that process of slowing that down. It’s so worth it because this is our life. These are the people that we’re spending our lives with. That is ultimately going to be what defines our life is our relationships and how we are moving through all of these different pieces. 

So I really, really love that. I feel like these three things that we went over really give everybody a very big head start into how you could change that dynamic with a discussion that’s maybe feeling charged.

Or even if you’re feeling attacked at first about something, you can see, okay, I can breathe through this. We can figure this piece out and bring that different energy to it. And so, do we want to do like one through a quick example or what do you think?

ERIKA: Well, I had a couple parts of this that I don’t think we’ve mentioned yet and we could do an example of something that comes up.

Disagreements can feel huge, something like a major difference in parenting style or it could be something small like the dining room table has a craft project on it. It’s bothering the other person. Little things that can blow up or big things that can blow up.

One thing that I feel like might be the biggest shift to make is to switch from saying you always, or you did two, “I” messages and Anna, you remind everyone about this all the time, but “I” messages are so valuable in these relationships with our partners because as soon as someone says you left this stuff on the table. Why do you always do that? Immediately the other person’s defenses are up. Immediately. You can’t help it. If somebody says you something, it’s going to raise those defenses. And so saying, I am feeling so overwhelmed today, I really could use a clean dining room table to serve dinner helps so much. Your partner can hear that and it’s not going to cause that same defensiveness as, why do you always leave stuff on the table? These are little things, but they can cause days long arguments, just based on that kind of communication style.

PAM: Yes, that is huge. I love that. And that’s such a lovely thing to bring to the whole process, right? I love the distinction you made there between the little everyday things because those can build and build into big, explosive moments. And that’s kind of where we fall into patterns. Because we bumped into it today and we bump into it three days from now and we bump into it at the end of the week. It’s like, oh, you always do X, Y, Z. Right? And that explodes out. But as we talked about a lot with the narration and the I messages, then it’s something about us, and then they don’t immediately feel judged and the need to defend themselves.

They can be like, oh, okay, they’re feeling this. and I wonder where that’s coming from. They can do their own processing to recognize because I always go back to context, but the context for them may be that they had a project out and then some emergency came up and then they got really busy for a couple of days.

So, two or three of our experiences of that are part of the bigger context of something that’s going on for them. It’s not, I’m going to leave this on the table just to piss them off. Very rarely is the choice actually motivated by just to piss them off. 

ANNA: That’s our assuming positive intent, they’re not doing it to upset us.

PAM: See, it all comes together so critically. I love how these tools apply no matter the situation, whether it’s a typical one like screens, food, bedtime, and the whole kind of parenting paradigm shift that comes with moving to unschooling and embracing unschooling. To just the little everyday moments of the shoes at the front door and the stuff on the table and all the little pieces.

To be able to take these tools of validation and assuming positive intent in the moment and not having a set outcome. Maybe the outcome in that moment is, let’s have a picnic on the floor because I really need to finish this thing and I’ll be able to do it tomorrow.

But it would be amazing if we could just leave it here on the table for now. I’m not giving in when I choose, let’s like have a picnic. Let’s make the best of this moment. Because that can be fun too, so that we’re not doing it begrudgingly. We’re not doing it with this energy of, you owe me that.

We’re just embracing something different and it wasn’t what our choice was at the beginning, but as we learn more, because we’ve gone through the process of having that little discussion, we can come up with something that seems fun for everybody too.

ANNA: And I mean I’m all about intentional language and so I do think those “I” messages can help.

And again, this works even if you don’t have somebody that understands and uses those same tools because when they come at you with the “you are” message. Then we can recognize that it’s about their dysregulation. That’s where their head is at this moment. They’re feeling really upset about the table, or they’re feeling really defensive that we’re trying to take their project down thinking we’re in the right because we need a clean table.

You know? That’s where if we can use these tools to just assume positive intent, wow. What they said at us was really intense. That’s about them. How can we move forward with curiosity and with validation to maybe bring that energy down? 

Because then I think once you bring that energy down, then they’re able to say, I just haven’t had time to finish it. I have had so many things back to back. And then we get more context, then we get more understanding about why it’s there. But again, as soon as we go to defense mode it derails. Ideally we’re talking about this as a family, how to use “I” messages and how to own our pieces of what’s happening because of the things on the table or because of when dinner is or because of what bedtime looks like or any of those pieces.

And so, just think of any example in your head and walk through the same process, whether it’s a little or big, and you’ll see that it can change the energy and you’ll learn so much more about your partner and your kids and so much more about yourself because you’ll be articulating why something’s important to you and you’re having a conversation that looks a little bit different than just making assumptions about it.

PAM: Yeah. I gotta say, one thing that really bubbled up for me. There is that understanding of somebody else and their triggers that can help us nip disagreements in the bud before they even bubble up. Because we can understand the things that are triggers or stressful for them, and we can, when we’re using up the table and we know, we can already narrate that to put them at ease before it starts to bother them to the point where they’re going to need to explode into a disagreement of sorts or like bring that negative energy to it, because then they can see, right? Oh yeah, they’re doing it for this reason. It’s not to piss me off or they have a need for this, et cetera.

And we can do that “I” messaging narrating along the way beforehand too because as we learn more about each other, well this’ll be an important thing to mention to somebody ahead of time, maybe before they see it or as they’re seeing it or something like that. We can even just be sharing our lives together in ways that the “I” messages can help them feel seen and heard.

ERIKA: Right. I love that.

Okay, what about if you have a dysregulated partner and they just come into the room like, things need to change around here. We need to do more things as a family. Why are they always on their screens, et cetera.

What is the first step of validating that person to lower this energy?

ANNA: I think I would just start with, Oh my gosh. Tell me more. What’s happening? I can see that you’re just so upset about it. Has something specific happened? And maybe they’ll be like, no, it’s just everything.

It’s just been all week. All I’ve seen is this and blah, blah, blah. And just say, that sounds so hard. And I miss you, and tell me more. It’s been a really tough week. Maybe we can give some context too, because sometimes that can help. Like I know how hard you’ve been working this week.

I know that the lawnmower broke and then we had this water leak, and I know these things have been happening, and it has felt like we’ve been super disconnected as a family. We can validate that piece. Pull out that piece that they’re wanting the family to get together, they’re feeling disconnected because so often these kinds of things are coming from a feeling of being disconnected and so we can really validate. You’re just feeling really disconnected from us and I mean, gosh, we haven’t seen you all week, or whatever it is. 

But you’ll see just the slight change in energy because we’re not fighting them on it. We’re not saying, well, where have you been? Or what have you been doing? Whatever it is. So I think that’s where I start, tell me more. I want to understand. That sounds really hard.

I know we haven’t seen you much or we’re feeling disconnected, or I would love for us to do more things as a family. Because even that, so even we can say, I would love for us to do more things as a family, doesn’t mean we’re going to be turning off all the computers, or we’re going to never do whatever the things that are being stated. 

I would always love for us to do more things as a family, find that little piece that’s a yes, and then I think we can get to the solution of that later. We have to bring the energy down so that we can be creative in that moment.

PAM: And I find too, especially when they’re coming with the messages about the family, it’s so often about disconnection or they’re not feeling part of the family, they’re feeling disconnected in some way.

So, yes, validating that piece and something that I found to be really useful. What does the day look like? For you, what would a great day look like for you? Like a great moment. And that helps them feel seen and heard when you’re open to hearing, because we were talking about it. 

Getting to the root, peeling back the layers, finding the common ground. Because like you said, I love hanging out together and spending time together. And when I can ask questions with curiosity and love to let them explain how they’re seeing things. That’s a common ground.

And then one, the energy is clearer and we feel connected in that moment. Like you said, it doesn’t mean that we have to stop everything else that we’re doing. I just want to be able to hang out with, with child A, B, C, whatever, and, and do things together.

But then that’s when you can start to facilitate. Maybe it’s a board game, because then we can bring our experience as to the things that we already know they do enjoy together. Maybe there is a show or a movie that they enjoy, because when they start to express what connection looks like or feels like to them, then they have opened themselves up too.

Because so often the answer to that is not something specific like at eight o’clock, I want them to come out and ride a bike with me, and then when we get back, we’re going to go get our gloves and we’re going to throw a ball. It’s more like I just want to do stuff with them, right? I want them to enjoy the stuff that we do together. I don’t want to feel like they’re trying to get it done and get away from me. Like those pieces. So that’s where you can move to conversations about what do you guys like doing together? And they can realize the screens don’t become part of the conversation at that point. It’s about connecting, right?

Then it can come up there is this show that you guys love, or this YouTube channel or this video game. And then that helps them and you can help them find a way. But the thing is, what you can help them with is recognizing that they do want something that both people enjoy doing. It doesn’t have to look like just their vision. I wish I had a child that loved to go ride bikes with me. We can validate, I know you love doing that. You know you’re a happy person and then you find the things that you enjoy doing with this child and with this child.

If we were feeling a little disconnected, having a pizza night and Mario party where we all came together. It wasn’t about the video game, it was about the connection, about hanging around together. 

And the frustration doesn’t need to be part of the conversation per se. It’s not like, no screens forever. You get to the root for them. They want to connect. When we’re frustrated, the always and the nevers come up. The clues when you hear those kinds of words. Okay, let’s just not, we’re not even having that actual conversation right now. We’re validating, we’re peeling back, we’re getting down to what is the root of that always and never. And when they can feel seen and heard around that, then they can be more open to all the possibilities of meeting it and those always and nevers may well be beautiful maybes. 

ERIKA: Right. And getting to the needs underneath. It’s just this conversation journey to go on together. But I feel that first step is not making their feelings wrong, not making their emotions wrong. Because when people come into a conversation with that kind of energy, they’re expecting a fight. That’s kind of what they’re coming in for and so if we don’t fight back, if instead you say, It makes sense that you’re upset. It makes sense that you’re feeling disconnected. Your feelings are valid and let’s talk about what’s going on for you.

I think in many cases, people coming in with that energy would appreciate just being able to talk about how overwhelming things are for them in general at that time. Just tell me about what’s stressing you out, because I can tell that something’s going on. 

Just the power of that, of us not getting our defenses up and just being able to validate and say that it’s okay. It’s okay to be upset about things. It’s okay to feel disconnected. Figuring out those underlying needs and how to meet them all together with kids and connection. If you really can get to that, I’m just feeling disconnected, then that opens things up.There’s a million ways that we could figure out that problem.

And if you’re willing to do things with the kids that they like to do, you’re going to get that connection back. And so if we have the vision that they never want to do this thing I want to do with them. If I have that conversation and realize. What I really want is to feel connected. I really want to have fun with them.

Then maybe I could go, okay, it’s a little disappointing that they are not into this thing that I’m into, but what if I can try out what they’re interested in and then we can connect in a way that feels really good to them and you. Then you build that relationship and add up those good experiences together.

PAM: Yeah. I was helping them sort their priorities. Like, you love this thing. And you want to connect with your kids. Those can be two separate things. Like I said, you can go off and go mountain biking or whatever it is that you love to do and you can connect.

If connecting with your kids is the priority, find something that you both enjoy doing together. You don’t need to lump them together or kill two birds with one stone, whatever metaphor you want to use. They don’t have to go together so that you can efficiently do the thing you love and connect with your child. I mean, yes, there is some disappointment and we have this vision.

We wish we all love doing these things and we could all do this together. But yeah, that’s our personal journey and that’s what we can help them tease apart, when we get to how we meet our needs. 

ANNA: Okay a few things. So then that reminded me. I think the paradigm shift is instead of we’re a family doing all the things, we’re an outdoor family, we’re a musical family.

What if the culture of the family is, we are a family that supports each other in doing the things that we love, because that actually feels good. I think so often with adults that have maybe not been heard when they were younger. They kind of want to be, this is my time, we’re going to do the things I want to do.

But it’s like, oh my gosh, we can all do the things that we want to do and we can support each other and feel connected in that. So I think that’s kind of an interesting paradigm shift. But what I wanted to say before that was just a quick reminder. Because we talk about this with kids, it’s the big language piece.

So when they come at you with that big language, everything’s going to hell in a hand basket. This is the worst. They’re this. They’re never going to do anything. They’re never going to amount to anything. Oh my goodness, recognize that it is just big language for the emotions inside. And like you said, probably so much about the overwhelm they’re experiencing from something going on in their life.

Maybe there’s other things in all of our lives or in the family’s life that’s really feeling hard. Just like with the kids, just let that big language slide over and go, wow, this person is upset. And I want to understand. And when we can change that to just not focus on the words.

because that’s kind of what you were saying too, Pam, that reminded me, when we focus on the words, we actually aren’t getting at what the needs are necessarily because taking the iPads isn’t going to connect them. So if the need is connection, we’ve actually focused on the words and probably made it worse.

And so just letting the words slide over to really hear and validate and bring that energy down gets us to that underlying need. 

PAM: I love that. Right. So yes, it’s beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope that you enjoyed our conversation, our longer conversation this week, and maybe even picked up a nugget or two for navigating disagreements with your partner and generally with anyone in your life that you love.

If you would like to dive deeper, we do have a course called Navigating Conflict, which is designed to help you gain a better understanding of how our personalities, our life experiences, and how we’re feeling in the moment can contribute significantly to the ways in which conflicts arise and unfold.

It includes six lessons, each of which includes exercises to help you more deeply process the topic and what it looks like for you, because all together now we are all different people. We encourage you to spend time with these exercises so that you can move beyond the intellectual understanding of these tools, the tools that we talked about, and get a feel for what they look like for you in practice.

To pick up our Navigating Conflict course, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on courses in the menu. Wishing everyone a wonderful day. Thanks, Anna. Thanks, Erika. Take care!

In this episode, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about building trust with our children. We regularly mention trust on the podcast, as we’ve found that trust is the foundation of the strong relationships that help unschooling thrive.

We had a lot of fun talking about ways to build trust in and with our children. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello everyone! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully, and today I am joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. 

Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our shop where you can find books, courses, coaching, and information about the Living Joyfully Network. The shop has resources and support for every stage of your journey, and you can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com.

Today we’re going to be talking about how to build trust with our kids. It’s such a critical part of the process. That foundation of trust helps us navigate all that life throws at us, keeping our connection at the forefront. So, I’m excited about this one. Erika, would you like to get us started?

ERIKA: I would. I really love this topic, because trust is something that comes up so often in the podcast conversations, in Network conversations. It’s a big part of what makes unschooling, in quotes, “work”. And it’s a big part of what we mean when we talk about strong relationships that we’re cultivating with our kids.

And trust is really a two part thing. It’s my kids trusting me. I want my kids to trust me, to know that I’ll follow through with what I say and that I will listen to them when they tell me about who they are. But it’s also me trusting my kids. I want to trust that they know what works best for them, that they are on their own path.

And so trust is going in both directions and for me it’s such an important focus to build trust and to avoid doing things that would undermine trust. I know we have a lot of different aspects of building trust that we will dive into. But what came to mind first to me was one of the tricky parts about it, which is that you can’t just say, “Trust me,” to your kids, and then they’ll trust you.

Trust is really something that builds over time and it takes patience and it’s more about our actions than it is about our words, which can be difficult. It takes more intention. And it’s something that comes as a feeling from within the other person, in this case, our kids, and we don’t have any control over whether they’re feeling that or not.

So, we can’t rush the process. It just takes the time that it takes. I think if there’s been a history of us pushing through their consent or a history of my child not feeling heard or seen by me, then trust could take even a longer time to build. I think that each step we’re taking, each intentional trust building step that we’re taking, along that path to being a more trustworthy parent, to being more trusting of them just adds, it’s building that relationship, building strength into the relationship. And that trust will just grow from there, one interaction to the next.

PAM: That was a huge one for me, understanding that trust is something that I build through my actions. I think that’s something that can trip us up, especially in the beginning when you realize, oh maybe my child doesn’t trust me.

They’re not doing X, Y, Z, or acting like they trust me. And that can feel like, oh no. Oh no. But the shift to, okay, I want to be a person that my child trusts, what does that look like? How can I actually do those things? I don’t literally need to go up to them and say, do you trust me? That would be a weird question to ask yet.

It’s one of those things where it’s through my actions and through their actions. That’s how we’re communicating about trust. Versus the actual meta conversations about it. The fascinating thing is the timetable, right? It’s not our timetable to control, even though that’s what we’re trying, we’re trying to build trust with them.

We want them to trust us. And we can even talk about why, when it comes to life, you want someone to trust you so that they will come to you when they need help. They won’t try to figure things out on their own. But same with learning, right? When you first come to unschooling, looking about learning that strong and trusting relationship is so valuable for learning too.

Because they’ll come, they’ll feel more comfortable coming to you with the questions. Instead of worrying that maybe this is a dumb question or worrying about being judged. Thinking that, my mom won’t like that. I’m interested in this thing, so I need to hide that. 

When you want a more engaged and open relationship, trust is an important part of it, and to take the timetable out of it entirely. And Anna, you say, be the parent that I want to be now and, and I want to be a parent who’s trusted by my child and my partner. So that’s how this person acts. You don’t wait till they trust you.

And once you trust me, then I’m going to be a trustworthy person. No, it goes the other way. I need to be that trustworthy person upfront and eventually, on their timetable, they will come to trust us as much as they will. And it’s so interesting to see, that’s your feedback from them.

If you see them hiding things more and you feel it’s more out of a worry about your reactions, then you can be a little more cognizant of your reactions. Try to take that little beat and instead of reacting more, give myself a couple choices in this moment rather than just react.

Maybe my instincts are something that I’m trying to move through a little bit.

ANNA: A couple things that came to mind from what you all said. There’s two things I’m hoping I’m going to remember, but one is. I think we can also be paralyzed by this piece of, it’s going to take time and what do we do?

Or there’s been a problem. And so I think it’s really important to let it sink in that this is not about being perfect. This is not about never making mistakes, that it really is about showing up for the repair. Because that builds trust too. When there’s a problem they know I’m going to come back. 

They know I’m going to come back and figure out, how do I repair it? And it really creates a climate where they can do the same, because there’s going to be times when they impact our trust in them, but then we know we can make the repair. And so as much as it’s about building trust, it’s about learning how to make a repair too.

And so I think that can lighten some of the panic about, how do I always be perfect with my words? How do I always follow through perfectly? How do I always do this? Let go of that and instead think, how do I just stay connected? You know? How do I make a repair? How do I recognize it? And I love what you just said too there, Pam, about that little barometer, like you’re going to get messages about not trusting, just like I’m sure you can think of other relationships that you’re in where you give messages to someone that you don’t trust them. We can think about how we are in relationships that maybe we feel trusted or maybe we don’t, and kind of recognize how that looks.

The other thing that came up from what you were saying, Pam, that I think is absolutely critical is letting go of judgment. I think our culture is very quick to judge things. It’s kind of a shortcut, right? Like, oh, that’s good, this is bad. That’s this, this is that. And so we make this snap judgment, and I think it’s so important to take that beat, like you said, to just be curious about what they’re bringing to us, because nothing’s happening in that exact moment when they’re bringing us something that maybe feels a little scary or feels like it’s not a good idea.

Let’s be curious. Let’s lean in, let go of that judgment because you’re so right, Pam. And that piece alone, I think does the most damage because they won’t come to us. They won’t come to us if they think, she isn’t going to like it or, I’m going to get judged about it, or they feel like, she’s not going to like me.

Because when we start judging what they’re doing, and maybe this is getting a little off track, but I think it’s related. When we judge, even if they’re watching YouTube or they’re doing something that maybe we don’t understand or like, when we are judging, really and truly kids are taking that in as you’re judging me, you don’t like me. Because I like this thing and you don’t like me.

And so. Really working. And I mean, it was work for me too, to just let go of that judgment and just really have that open and curious mindset. It makes such a difference when we’re doing this kind of cultivating and building trust.

ERIKA: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And here’s so many places where I think when kids are young Maybe we get into a routine of just making decisions for them. And so I think it can, over time, build a culture of, they don’t hear me. 

I think it is important, just as the child gets older and starts being more aware of having opinions about these things. Realizing, I’m different. I have my own interests, I have my own things I want to do. As your child is growing and as you’re trying to build trust with them, things like being honest with them about what’s really happening. Giving them the whole picture rather than trying to just convince them to go on an outing, really giving them the whole picture of this is what it’s going to be like, this is what’s going to be expected of you, and those kind of of things.

I feel like those are the things that really build trust. Where it’s like, okay, I trust that my parent is going to be honest with me and tell me what’s really going on. And I think for a lot of kids in mainstream parenting, that is not a priority.

Giving kids the truth, giving them the whole picture, that kind of thing. Allowing space for their experience to be true for them and not judging how they’re feeling about things. That builds trust. I can come to you and tell you that I don’t like this, and you’re not going to say, yes you do. You always have. Everyone likes this and just blow off their opinions about things. I think a little signal for me sometimes that I am not being trustworthy, is if my kids say, you didn’t tell me that was going to happen. Why didn’t you tell me that was coming up? Why didn’t you tell me we were doing that today?

Life gets busy. Sometimes I forget to communicate everything but that communication and really including our kids in what’s going on in their own lives. I feel like that is part of  trust building, helping them feel prepared for things, not blindsided by things.

Being there when you say that you’re going to be there, following through if you say, I can’t do it now, but I’ll do it later, and then following through on that. Those are little things that make a huge difference in building trust and making sure that they feel like they’re a priority in your life too.

And then when you’re trusting in them, that builds their trust in you too. So, I love how all of these actions and these intentional ways that we can relate to our kids, build on each other to create that stronger relationship.

PAM: Yeah. Oh, I love all those, the little list.

Because I think that was really helpful, for me anyway. Was thinking about what actions can help as I built trust. And that was a great list there. And one of the things, and I’m going to pull it out because I think you mentioned it, Erika, but it’s the being responsive piece of it.

To trust that we will help them in the moment, to be consistently available. This is not something that, okay, I’m going to drop everything and, and off we go. As they get older, they’re doing more things on their own.

They need our help less often, but when they need it being responsive in the moment is really helpful. But also as you mentioned, it doesn’t mean dropping everything. There’s context, there’s our lives going on around us. So even if I can help you in 10 minutes. But it’s showing up 10 minutes later, or learning not to say 10 minutes to say when I finish the thing, because I always underestimate how long it will take to do something.

So that’s part of knowing ourselves, right? As we’re talking with them and figuring things out. But that openness is so useful too, because then, even in that sentence, oh, I’m, I am right in the middle of doing this. As soon as I’m done, I think it’ll be 10 minutes.  I’ll come and check in and watch what you wanted to share, or we’ll go do this thing, whatever it is that they’re coming and wanting.

Because right in that moment, in that 15 seconds, they recognize that our delay is about the thing that we’re doing. It’s not about me trying to put off. Because I don’t like what they’re asking for.

And like you said, Anna, they will take that personally. If they don’t like this thing that I like, then they don’t like me, is so often the message that they’re absorbing from it. So, taking that 15, 20 seconds to just explain what’s up for us and then following through. Because like you both said, that’s where the trust is built, right? Trust doesn’t mean immediate reaction. Sometimes it does, but trust is like that.

They can trust that what we say, we will follow through on that we mean it, right? And that  builds trust. When they recognize, oh, this is about them, not about me. Then they don’t take that weight with them and ruminate for 10 minutes until we manage to show up. All those little pieces are so valuable.

But yeah, it’s not about us being perfect, you know? It’s not about us being immediately responsive. Trust is so much bigger than that, I feel. And when we can understand ourselves that little bit, as well as how they might see it, seeing the moment through their eyes. Like if they come running in super excited and I’m like, oh, 10 minutes, and they’re like, no, it’s happening right now, then yes, I’m going to make that choice.

For the most part, unless I’m in the middle of an emergency, I’m going to make that choice because now I’ve got a little bit more information that tells me the priority of it, right? And I can shift. It’s not me giving in. It’s not me making a mistake in any way. If it goes sideways, we can repair. That’s, like you said, where the trust is actually built.

ANNA: What you’re describing, that narration, I think is so important because when we’re able to just say a little bit more about the steps there, it also helps them have freedom to have more steps. And so it even can be a question like when that comes up, hey, will 10 minutes work?

I’m trying to finish this. Tell me what’s happening, get a little bit more information and have a little bit more of a conversation. And then, like you said, they’ll see. Oh, this is not about her not wanting to do this. It’s about something that she’s trying to finish. But I will say a piece of that too, like just part of my journey, it was really to pause, because I can get focused on what I’m doing in the moment.

It’s a little bit hard to pull myself out. Really, I did a lot of work to be available when they’re coming, especially teenagers. We’ve talked about this before, Pam. Like, when a teenager comes in front of you, I’m just like, drop it. If it’s not an emergency call or something, I’m just drop it and want to be present.

Because what I’ve seen with teenagers is they tend, if they don’t get the response, they just tend to go back off and you’ve missed the opportunity, you know? And so part of building trust is that piece of being available. It’s not about, like you said, I’m throwing away and not thinking about my life.

It really is about priorities and for me, in those moments, my priority was being there for that person in my life, and especially teens I feel like, but really all kids. I feel like teens are going through such a hard time. There are so many things going on with them and it can feel so hard at times.

And so, I think it just felt really reassuring to know I could show up for that and make that a priority. So, I think that piece is important, but that narration of just what’s happening in my head for them is that little bit of a step that lets them know, oh, this isn’t about me.

She’s doing something and then showing up, and then following through, and then sitting down and just really sinking into that moment with whatever they want to share, whether it’s upset or a funny game, or a cat meme or whatever the thing is. Because that’s that bid for connection too, right.

ERIKA: Just being able to be present for whatever they’re bringing, I feel like is a big part of trust with my kids. We’ve had moments in the past where maybe my son will say, I didn’t want to tell you about that because I know you don’t like that. Or I know you would have a reaction to it, and so I don’t want to talk about that.

And so for me, those are little things of like, okay, I need to control my reactions a little bit more, or I’m bringing too much of an emotional response when something comes up. And, so just being more intentional about giving space for whatever they’re going to bring.

It’s such a good feeling to be that person for them that they can come with anything. And so that is something that I focus on a lot and that feeling that they can tell me something privately, something important and sensitive and things they’re still just figuring out and that I can hold that.

And that just builds their trust in me. And the fact that I can it’s okay if they’re upset, it’s okay if they’re angry, it’s okay. I can hold all of those emotions. And so this is, as we always say, unschooling is our work to do this. Having them trust us is a lot our work to do.

Releasing and working through our triggers, grounding ourselves to the place where when they come with whatever they’re coming with, we can be there as this steady presence. I think what you’re talking about with the teen years, that’s just so huge for me with my kids right now who are 13 and 15, they really just need me to be able to be there when they need me, be there when they need to talk something out. Otherwise they’re just going to be thinking of it in their heads sitting in their rooms worrying about things. And so for our relationship, having them trust me with their most sensitive conversations is just so huge.

PAM: Exactly my experience too. And it just felt like the way you framed it as priorities, Anna, which came with kind of the shift in the timetable because when they’re younger, they’re like here all the time and you’re coming across them all the time. But then as teens, even if they’re not literally out and about with other things, they’re actively engaging on their own with other things so that when a time pops up in their day, week, or month where they’re coming to us. This is the opportunity, right? This is the time because there is less time when we can go and interrupt or just engage with them. So it’s less about our timetable and more about theirs. So that is how I easily made that the priority when they came because this is the opportunity right now.

This is when we can connect and engage and I can, for the most part, 95% of the time just rearrange that moment for myself.Whatever I’m into, I can, let that sit for a bit. To engage because my priority is that relationship and that connection. One other piece that I wanted to talk about a little bit was because this trust relationship I find so interesting and their trust in me, I found grew along or I was able to cultivate that better when I was also cultivating my trust in my kids. It’s a two way street. So it was for me, just quickly, one of the things that helped me cultivate my trust in them was just by getting to know them, right? Understanding their personality, their motivations, their goals, their interests.

I could understand them better and their choices. Once I understood them better, things didn’t feel like they were out of the blue so much. Right? This makes total sense for them. If I didn’t understand them, it would be like, oh my gosh that came right out of left field and I’d feel like I was being batted around.

Being open and approachable we were just talking about with teens, but really inviting our children to come to us whenever they want our help and making that a priority for ourselves. And because that’s how we get to know them better, right? That’s how we get to understand what their current motivations are, what their goals are, the things that they’re feeling challenged by or frustrated with.

And by giving them some space, like you talked about space a little bit earlier, Erika, just seeing their choices and how things play out as they explore and learn. If we jump in, even if we’re not telling them what to do, if we jump in with our suggestions, then those kind of end up being the suggestions on the plate.

But if we can give them that space. To come up with some suggestions on their own. Unless they’re literally coming to us and saying, Hey, I’m feeling stuck. What do you think? It’s not, oh no, you go figure that out on your own. But if we don’t jump in with things, we give them some more space and we see how they approach things. 

We see some ideas that they come up with. We see how those unfold for them, and we are learning more about them. They’re learning more about themselves too. The beautiful thing, as I deepened my trust in them, I could really see the consistency of their choices and what made so much sense for them. I could see things better through their eyes than me putting myself in that situation. And if I was a kid, if I was 12 years old at this moment, this is what it would feel like. It’s very different for them. They’ve had a whole different life. They’ve had support and love and all that kind of stuff.

But anyway, ultimately what I wanted to get to is what happens is that trust as they get older, as they’re making choices in the future, even if I didn’t understand them in that moment, I could trust them more. Because it’s like, oh, when I know more, or when I see how it will make sense to me because the last few years have not been nothing but out of the blue experiences.

But if I see that time after time, I’ve understood their perspective and where their choices are coming from. In that moment, I can react with so much more trust when I don’t yet understand it, because I know that it will make sense.

Sometimes maybe their trust doesn’t even make sense to them in the moment, but for us to show up, trusting and open and having conversations with them, that will become clear for them too. Like my instinct is drawing me to this thing. I’m not quite sure why I’m going to like it. I can support that. And help them explore it and figure out why it’s calling to them.

For that, my trust in them, it really reflects back their trust in me at the same time. Right. I really feel like it’s a spiral.

ANNA: I want to kind of combine the two things that the two of you said, which is, I really think it’s so important to get to know them because I think one of the common stumbling blocks you see is that. We really do put ourselves with our childhood and who we were in those situations into their situations. 

Whether it’s friends at the park, whether it’s some kind of an upset about something, whether it’s some kind of doing something, it is just always a recipe for disaster because they’ve had such a different life than we do, no matter what, even if you were unschooled, which is probably unlikely.

They’ve still had such a different life and so, that time that you’re talking about Pam, to just really get to know them and watch their choices and hear about them and not insert yourself or what your choice would be, and let that unfold is so critical because I think, again, we can bring this energy of, oh my gosh, if I were doing this or if this had happened to me, I would feel X or I would need this. And it really short circuits their process of understanding themselves and understanding the situation. And when I’ve talked to people about this, it really can calm them. They have different tools, they have a different experience, and then we can let that unfold.

What I love is that it’s fun to get to know them. Right? I mean, that’s kind of the fun part of this. Understanding we’re all so different. It really just helps kind of hammer that in. This thing that felt hard for me at 15, actually doesn’t feel hard to them and this thing that felt easy to me feels hard to them.

And so we can share that and talk about it and understand each other. I just think it’s a really beautiful part of it is getting to know who they are and that builds trust because they don’t think we’re trying to insert our way, because it makes no sense to them. Right? It makes no sense to them when we’re activated by something that isn’t activating them.

And so I think that this back and forth trust and that narration can help them understand, that’s about you and here’s what’s happening for me. So yeah, I loved that, that point.

ERIKA: Yeah. This is bringing up, there’s no one right way. Dropping the judgment.

It’s a long game. There’s plenty of time. Because I feel like sometimes in this parent position I can be like, oh no, they’re doing this. I better tell them that’s not good. I better try to make it so that it works out. But then that is just undermining their trust in themselves and undermining my trust in them.

And so, keeping in mind that everyone’s different. There’s not one right way to do things. This is a long game. There’s plenty of time for them to get where they’re going. It just slows everything down for me. I can listen to what they’re saying, look at what they’re doing without rushing to that judgment, giving myself time to get to know who they are.

I love that. Then our trust in them helps them have trust in themselves. It’s all growing trust, which is just amazing.

PAM: Yes. It’s a beautiful circle and I love all those little bits. Like those are why, those are little mantras that we often mention.

Even the group of them worked together so nicely to help bring down our own energy and something you said, let me see if I can remember, Erika, that we are trying to get things to work out perfectly for them. That was another big aha moment for me. It doesn’t mean I don’t try, if I recognize how I might be able to help set something up that will work, that I suspect might work better for them.

I do my best, but also to be able to, once I’ve done that, just release it to see how it unfolds and to not feel like things are going to go sideways. Things are going to go sideways. Like you were talking about Anna before with the repair piece.

There is nothing wrong. We haven’t failed when things go sideways. We will all learn little pieces. Maybe I’ll learn that. Gee, I tried and I set it up this way and oops, that actually knocked against what they were  trying to accomplish because I kind of thought it was something different.

I kind of thought it was six months ago, child, and now it’s today’s child who has grown and changed and maybe more internally than I had yet recognized, and this was my moment when I recognize that they have grown beyond that, or they have shifted in what they’re interested in or what they’re trying to get out of this activity.

So we can do our best in the moment, which includes our capacity and all those pieces. And then it unfolds the way it unfolds, and we learn from that and we put that in our toolbox, and that comes with us next time, right? But we can get so caught up in trying to make things that work out perfectly and then feel bad.

If they don’t like it, it’s our responsibility. No, it’s life and things are going to go sideways. And if, if things often go sideways, it’s like, okay, I really have a few things that I am just trying to do repeatedly that are not working. If it’s happening often that’s a pattern and a clue for me to revisit my foundations, et cetera.

But expecting the pendulums to swing the other way and for me to always be on and get it right is an unrealistic expectation too.

ANNA: Right? And I think so much about that when we’re looking at their life. It’s making it about us. Maybe we’re uncomfortable with what they’re going through.

Maybe they’re saying things that, again, are bringing us back to that moment, or we’re projecting it out into the future. But as soon as we start that we’re making it about us and that harms trust because they don’t need to be carrying our weight from our teenagehood. They don’t need to be carrying some bizarre weight we have about being the perfect parent. And if we didn’t, if we were the perfect parent, that nothing would go sideways. That’s so much about us. And so I love that you said it earlier, Erika. It’s just like, this is our work to do. This is our work to do. And in doing that, again, I think our kids really sense that and see it, and I think all the people in our life do when we’re able to just let people experience their life, be there as a support, but not judging, not making it about us, not inserting ourselves in that narrative. I really like thinking about it in that way.

PAM: Love that.

ANNA: Yep. Well, this was fun and I think it was a really important conversation so thank you both and thanks for listening, and we hope you found it helpful on your unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you’d love the Living Joyfully Network. You can learn more about it at livingjoyfully.ca/network  We’d love to see you there and look forward to seeing you on the next podcast. Thanks so much. Bye!