In this episode, we were so grateful to be joined by Melissa Crockett-Joyoue of the Unschooling Summit and Weave ND. Melissa shared her dramatic journey to unschooling, her experience as a neurodivergent parent of neurodivergent kids, and how amazing unschooling has been for all of them. We also talked about increasing our capacity through intentional self care practices and being an entrepreneur while unschooling.

It was a very rich conversation that we hope you enjoy!

Can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now? And then we would also love to hear a bit about your story of coming to unschooling.

Before the call, you mentioned how valuable unschooling as a lifestyle can be for ND kids. How have you seen that in action?

I know you talk about the importance of building capacity for ourselves. Can you share some of your ideas around that?

You’ve mentioned your online community, Weave, and there’s The Unschooling Summit event you co-host with Esther Jones. We’d love to hear more about those and a bit of your experience weaving unschooling together with being an entrepreneur.

Weave Community: weave-community.mn.co

Weave IG: www.instagram.com/weave_nd

Melissa Unschooling – IG: www.instagram.com/mama.weaves

The Unschooling Summit: www.theunschoolingsummit.org

The Unschooling Summit on IG: www.instagram.com/theunschoolingsummit

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

ERIKA: Hello everyone, I am Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Melissa Crockett-Joyoue. Hello to you all. 

MELISSA: Kia ora.

ERIKA: But before we begin our conversation with Melissa, I wanted to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have amazing discussions about so many topics since our community has such a wide variety of experiences. Everyone in the Network is really learning and growing and being intentional with their families.

It’s unlike any other online community I’ve found. Being part of the Network offers powerful support, especially during moments when questions and fears come up, or if you’re new to unschooling and just need a place where people understand the journey. If you’d like to learn more about the Living Joyfully Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the community tab. We’ll also leave a link in the show notes. We would love to meet you there.

We are so excited to have Melissa joining us today on the podcast. She is the co-founder of the Unschooling Summit, and the founder of WeaveND, an online membership community supporting neurodivergent unschooling families with a focus on building capacity and connection for the parents. She lives in New Zealand and is mama to two unschooling kids. I met Melissa recently when I participated in her Sunday Session with Esther Jones, which is part of the Unschooling Summit. I’m excited to learn more about her in our conversation today.

And so to get us started, Melissa, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now? And we’d also love to hear a bit about your story of coming to unschooling.

MELISSA: Okay. Well, I’ll check back in an hour with you. So, kia ora koutou. So I’m Melissa and you know that we’ve done that part. I live in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I live in a small coastal rural fishing village, which is approximately an hour north of Auckland. I grew up in the very far north.

I’m part M?ori on my mother’s side, and a big mix on my dad’s side, and grew up really intensely connected to that part of me growing up in a small, predominantly M?ori area in the far north. And my wife and I, she is from St Lucia in the Caribbean. And we have two children.

So we have T?mana, who is 10. And we have Hinem?rie and she is seven and a half. Hinem?rie did three part days at preschool with me in attendance and was a big fat no. And that was her journey in mainstream schooling. And T?mana did a year at our really lovely little country school with a role of 60 kids max. It was probably about 55 when he was there, a school that I had been on the board of governance of for three years before I even got pregnant, because we moved to a small town and I wanted to make connections and help out. And I thought, I’m going to make the school really awesome so when my kids get there it will be great. That didn’t turn out quite how I anticipated.

So, that’s where we live. And we live on a big, big property that my parents own. So it’s native forest. They live there as well in a different dwelling within shouting distance. And my uncle lives there as well. And my brother and his wife and two kids live just a five minute drive away.

So, it’s a beautiful intergenerational kind of living with all the ups and downs of that when you are striking out on a different path. My parents are supportive, really supportive of the unschooling stuff, more challenged by understanding the neurodivergent stuff, because they’re neurodivergent too, they don’t know it yet. They’re working it out. So, we have a different parenting style that they are trying to be supportive of. And we’re all kind of learning how that works. 

Our journey to unschooling was a mixture of, longer than I wish it had been in hindsight now, and kind of quite quick to jump straight into unschooling in other ways. So as I said, I was quite invested in the whole local school and so on. I was also doing fundraisers for them. I was working on M?ori strategy with them and so on.

So, when T?mana was smaller, he had really intense food allergies. And so we didn’t do a lot of socializing with him. We lived quite an unschooling kind of lifestyle anyway. He didn’t go to any kind of childcare. He was only ever looked after by my mum occasionally.

It was a very kind of attachment-style parenting. And I ran a M?ori language play group with my sister-in-law. And so he socialized there. But apart from that, play dates were really hard because of his food allergies. And he liked other kids, but there was always something. He really liked adults. For his fourth birthday party, his list was all grown-ups and elderly people he wanted to come to his party. And so it was always a little bit challenging. And he really liked babies. Those were his key interest areas with other kids.

We put him into preschool when he was three and he wouldn’t go inside. And we just thought, oh he’s just such an outdoor boy and he just wanted to move rocks and climb trees and ride bikes. But every time he went inside, he’d get really upset, particularly if it was raining.

Now I’m looking back and seeing all these flags for sensory overload and stuff that we just didn’t know or understand at the time. And we thought that it was his food allergies making him really cautious around other kids. So, he did a little bit of preschool, like two mornings a week. But I had a new baby and I might get him there at 10 and he might have to finish at 12. So he did about two hours twice a week max.

When my daughter was eight months old, I actually had three SCAD heart attacks, Spontaneous Coronary Artery Dissections, which were near fatal and pretty extreme. And I spent five weeks in hospital. And it is a key part of our story because it was very traumatic for the children.

So T?mana was there for two of the times, including one which was cardiac arrest. And it meant that he had really severe separation anxiety. And the nature of him anyway, he was very, very attached. But this was really intense. And so I spent five weeks in hospital and had to have open heart surgery. And he kept going to preschool during that time. But it was really difficult for him. 

So, it was probably a year later that it was time for him to start school in New Zealand, we start at five. And pretty much everyone just goes at five. You legally don’t have to be there until you’re six. But I knew that he was going to need a long transition into school. I felt that. And the preschool and school were right next door. So, we had this plan in progress. And then COVID happened.

So we locked down at home. And that suited him really well. And also, after I recovered in that period of time, my wife got really sick, but that came after. So, we put him into school. And it went abysmally, basically, from the get go. And after a few months, he started halfway through the year. He started in June. And so the other kids had kind of settled in at the beginning of the year. He only had 10 kids in his class, but it was just too much. And I’m trying to think how I can make this shorter. 

So basically, school was really difficult. He, from the very first day, it was screaming violent meltdowns from him. And I couldn’t lift him because of my chest surgery and stuff. And so my mum helped literally drag him into school. And we pushed him in the door. And the teacher closed the door on him. And it was horrific. And I was really fully in PTSD still at that point. So I was having panic attacks and stuff. And so it was, it was intense. It was really hard.

And then they did the classic thing of, you know, 10 minutes later, sending a photo of him playing and being like, he’s fine. But this didn’t stop. And pretty much every day was traumatic for all of us.

And we had meetings with the school and they said that it was because of me. And so we had his grandparents drop him off at school, occasionally my wife if she wasn’t working and so on. And it just didn’t get better. And he would be up trees and my dad, who is a bit rough around the edges. “I’m gonna have to get the chainsaw and cut the tree down.” And it was just really dramatic every morning.

And he went through a small phase of kind of being okay to go. And they were bribing him with Lego he could do in class and stuff. But it just wasn’t supportive of his neurodivergence.

They didn’t understand that. They just blamed it all on his trauma around my heart stuff. And yeah, it just continued to go on.

And everyone was telling us he’ll get used to it. Kids are like this, it’ll be fine. He’s just traumatized, you know, like it’s just that.

And yeah, the plans that they put in place were basically me not being involved. And you know, don’t make it nice for him to be at home, encourage him to be at school, all of those kinds of things. This is with a five-year-old who’s really traumatized.

One of the final days they were restraining him on the ground while I drove off with him, you know, yelling for me. Sorry, I didn’t think I’d get this upset again. I’ve talked about this. It’s all your empathetic faces. 

And we had anxiety bands for him that were giving him bilateral stimulation, all this kind of thing. And nothing was helping.

And at that point as well with his learning, I could see some disparities. And I ended up finding out about giftedness and I had him assessed and it turned out he was a highly gifted visual-spatial learner. So then I kind of went down the path of, okay, things will be better if we get them on board with his visual-spatial giftedness.

And we talked about it with him because he knew he was different from the other kids. And so we went in with all these ideas and this 26-page report and the school just wasn’t able to support him in that. And they gave him a teacher’s aid, but it just wasn’t working.

He kept running away from school grounds out onto the main road and stuff. And it was just difficult. And I really wanted to homeschool him. And I knew homeschooling was going to be our future at that point. I’d always kind of seen it because of his food allergies, placements didn’t work out. Then I was like, yeah, I could be a homeschooling mom, but I did really like that local school.

I knew homeschooling was in our picture, but my wife and I thought that I was just having to deal with the trauma that I’d been through. And I was having panic attacks and so on. And we just thought that I didn’t have the mental capacity to homeschool him at that point.

I didn’t know about unschooling. I mean, I’d heard about it. And I thought that was like those really happy, slack parents. I followed one woman on a blog, and she lived in a house bus and the kids were constantly being picked up for not being looked after properly and stuff.

And I was like, yeah, no, that’s wow. And I have nothing against house buses, I think that’s a cool lifestyle. But a particular blog I was reading maybe wasn’t very representative.

So, I thought we were going to have to homeschool him, but I thought that I was going to need to get a whole lot better first. And it just got to the point where he had like four vomiting migraines in two weeks. I thought maybe he had some kind of brain problem going, like some kind of illness or something, some terrible thing.

And it was just stress. And it turned out that he was being really bullied at school. And he was telling us, but we didn’t believe that it was as bad as what he was saying and so on.

And it just came to a crunch when we had a second big COVID lockdown for about, well, it was big for us, it was about four months of complete lockdown. And he absolutely blossomed at home. He completely thrived. He was learning. He was much more interested in learning. He was so much less anxious. And we sat down and had a conversation. At that point, the new protocols had come in that we would have to drop him at the school gate and leave.

Parents just had to drop and go, you weren’t allowed into the school at all. And we just said, that’s not okay. It’s my mental health or his, we decided. And we were like, I can be more robust. I can sacrifice mine for his, we just couldn’t do that to him any longer. And that’s when we decided to homeschool. And I’d been trying to convince my wife for probably six months that we needed to do this.

And we finally had this conversation. I remember I got up off the couch and I walked over to the kitchen bench and I started doing dishes. And then I just had this complete wash over of me, like, how the hell am I going to homeschool him?

Like, oh, I don’t have the capacity and how am I going to teach him maths? You know, and all of those things that just washed over me, just like this whole whoosh. And I went and spoke to her, sent a message to a friend who is an unschooler, who’s a psychologist who lectures at a university. And she unschools her two similarly neurodivergent, at the time we thought, similarly gifted kids. They’re gifted as well. And she said to me, yeah, read this Carol Black essay and you need to unschool.

And so that was it. And I just autistically deep dived into that. And that was it. We were unschoolers from pretty much that day. We didn’t start homeschooling. We just went straight into unschooling.

Wow. Okay. I told you, see me in an hour. Yeah, so it’s a big, big story. But that’s how we got to unschooling.

ANNA: It’s amazing. I think so many parents can identify, just all those feelings and trying to make it work and trying to do what everybody’s saying you need to do. And oh my gosh, it’s just so intense. And then with your health pieces too. So yeah, just feeling all the feels of that experience for sure. 

PAM: I was just going to say, so many feels. And I resonated with a few spots that were very similar. Like trying to work with the school, going in with the reports and trying to create this environment in which they’ll thrive and it just not being something that they’re able to do within the constraints that they are living with. 

But that moment, I was actually writing about that recently. The moment when you realize all of a sudden, that there really are other options than this, this one thing. You were working so hard with the school and trying to make it at that welcoming and wonderful place. And then the bright side of a lockdown, I guess. But I think it’s kind of the baby steps too.

And I think for me, it was really helpful when we decided to ask the kids if they wanted to stay home, that it wasn’t like, okay, this is our decision that we’re doing forever. We’re going to try it out and see because when you give it that opportunity, oh my gosh. Like your description of how he was shining when he had the opportunity to just be at home and do those things. That is amazing. And that was your insight and moment to be like, okay, I need to make this work somehow.

So it was just fascinating. Thank you for sharing. It’s okay that it was long!

ERIKA: It’s just such a beautiful story. And you can really feel all of the, there’s so many elements to it. And I think for everyone who goes on this journey, there are so many contributing factors. So you’re feeling all the context of what’s going on for you, and then for your partner as well. And then for your child, everyone, all these different people with different needs. And then those relentless outside messages saying, it’s you. Don’t get involved in this, that’s such a pressure on parents.

MELISSA: Yeah, I hear that so much as well, in my community. People that are considering it and they’re like, but everyone says that if I remove my child from the system, where’s all the support going to be? They need an SLT, they need an OT, they need a behavioral person. And it’s like, actually, once you remove them from this environment, so many of those needs drop away.

PAM: Actually that is a wonderful lead into our next question. You mentioned this before the call, but your whole description just brings it to life, how valuable unschooling as a lifestyle can be for neurodivergent kids. So, I was hoping you would dive into that a little bit more.

MELISSA: Okay. Be careful with a little bit more. This is my soapbox. 

ANNA: We’re here for it.

MELISSA: Yeah, I’m just so passionate about parents of neurodivergent kids understanding that unschooling is not just a valid, legitimate option, but it may very well be like a life-changing one for their family and for the trajectory of their children’s lives. Because I think that what they are able to gain at home, in a supportive environment, assuming that you can provide them with a supportive environment, is, I can’t put into words, and this is rare for me, how much that can turn around can be. I think about the potential life story of our kids, because my son was at school for one year and there were lockdowns during that time, and there were school holidays, and all of these things, vacations, whatever you guys call it, and he left there, telling us that he was stupid, and that he was worthless.

And he’d got all these messages from there. He hadn’t been told that by anyone, he had internalized all of that stuff. And he had really deeply internalized it. And it’s just because it wasn’t the right environment for him. Even though he had this paperwork telling him he was a gifted learner, he has an extremely asynchronous, really spiky profile.

So, he’s 97th percentile for some things, or 98th, and then 4th percentile for something else. And so all that was amplified at school was those 20 percentiles and the 4 percentiles, and none of the 97th or 98th genius were the things that were focused on. And all we do is celebrate the stuff that they’re good at. Our life’s work is to help them to learn how to regulate and to celebrate all the good things that they bring. And autistic people, which now he’s diagnosed, I’m diagnosed, and our daughter is yet to be diagnosed, have like a really increased risk of very, very poor mental health and a really high suicide rate and so on. 

And for me, that is my bottom line is that I want my kids to be mentally well. And if they don’t have mental wellness, to have supports for that, and to be able to learn how to regulate themselves and keep themselves safe. And that is the most essential thing, I think.

And with neurodivergent kids who are in school, even the ones that are doing okay, there’s so much around just the sensory overload and the amount of capacity that they are using in a day just to get to the baseline that other kids start the day at, or spend the day at. The amount of executive function that they, you know, it was said we have no executive function, but actually, we’ve just used it all up, because our brain needs to utilize it just to do all the things that come naturally to other people. So, it’s not that we don’t have any, it’s just that we use it really, really quickly.

And when a person’s central nervous system is in fight or flight all the time, it’s hard for them to thrive in any way, let alone do the bare basics of learning. I think that at school, just simply the sensory overload, even for being in a room of 10 kids. Now I’m not going to put my kid in a room of 10 kids without knowing what we’re going to need to do in advance. We’re going to accommodate in this way. And afterwards, we’re going to have a buffer of one to two days, depending on whether he knew the kids or not, and whether it was extra loud or what they were doing.

I can calculate all of this into my dysregulation maths and be like, okay, this is what we need to place around this so that the rest of our week goes bearably. There’s no control over any of that in school, and just the amount of overstimulation and sensory overload, now that I know that I’m autistic, and I can look at how as an adult I function in certain ways, I can unpick and unpack all of that and just be like, wow, all of these aspects are so, so challenging for our kids. And then they’re there trying to learn? It just seems completely unrealistic, you know. They can’t learn when they’re in complete fight or flight.

I actually had an example with T?mana. They have parent-child interviews, I assume they do that all around the world where you go and you talk about the kids’ learning goals and what they’re doing well at and what they need to work on and so on. And we had one of those when T?mana, it wasn’t long before we finished, and we went in and you’re sitting on the little five-year-old tables with the little seats, and we’re all sitting around with our adult knees up. And there’s the teacher and my wife and I and T?mana, and T?mana was doing well.

But he’s ADHD as well as autistic. And so he was on his knees on the chair, on his elbows, and then his feet, doing all the things that a five-and-a-half-year-old does when they’re sitting in a boring meeting. And I was trying to focus and I was probably trying to people please and over-stressed about trying to convince her that yes, we’re supportive of that, but what about all these other things we want you to be doing? I was trying and feeling like such a pain in the butt parent because I was constantly riding them. And I was starting to get a bit stressed because he just wouldn’t sit still. 

And I said, you know, T?mana, we’re just, you know, a few more minutes and then we’ll be ready to go. Like, just try and put your butt on the chair kind of thing. And the teacher looked at him and she said, oh, she said, we never have this. He never does this at school. And my wife and I just looked at each other in disbelief. And we’re like, really? And she’s like, no, no. I mean, you know, sometimes they lie on the floor because they’re allowed to do work lying down and stuff. But he doesn’t do this. 

And we left that meeting and for all of the things that got said and discussed and stuff, the thing that my wife and I were just absolutely flabbergasted by was he doesn’t do that at school. Like, I don’t think that kid’s ever sat on a chair unless it’s like an ice cream or something in front of him. He didn’t eat ice cream for sensory issues until he was like six anyway. But, you know, unless it was something that he was hyper focused on. 

And we just went, how can he have any creative flow if he is controlling his body so tightly in order to do what he thinks he needs to be doing? How can he excel? And we went, how can he do the bare minimum when you’re putting that much bodily muscle, let alone thought, et cetera, into controlling your whole self? We were just like, there’s just no way.

And that really stuck with me. So, I think that neurodivergent kids who are at home can have environments where they can learn. And that’s probably the key thing. You know, they can regulate. They can learn. They can socialize in ways that suit them. And they can just, they can just blossom because it can be so individualized. Yeah. 

ANNA: It’s so interesting. That chair piece really sticks with me, too, because look at how hard he was trying to fit into that environment. And they’re saying he’s not doing this. He’s not doing that. All they’re seeing are the deficits and trying to fix these deficits, but missing the fact that, my gosh, he’s trying with everything that he has, you know, to fit into this environment he’s been put in. And I think all that’s missed. I think that is very, very powerful. =

MELISSA: And there was another day as well where he was more unmasked, shall we say, where we’d had to go to the city for a medical appointment for me, like a checkup, and the teachers didn’t know. And they rang us, the principal rang us and said that he had a substitute teacher, so that was yet another change in his routine. And he was on the table doing a strip show and had got down to his underwear.

And the principal was like, they were used to him running away, but she’s like, I’ve never seen him like this. And we were like, he’s probably quite dysregulated because, well, we didn’t even use the word dysregulated, but we said he’s probably really worried or anxious because we’re doing this. But yeah, these are the things that he was trying to keep down, and that day he couldn’t.

ERIKA: Yeah. My family is neurodivergent as well. And when I think back on just how overstimulating the school environment was for me as a child. The memories that I have of being a young child in school are all the people. I remember what they were all doing, and I was worried because if you do too much, you get in trouble.

There’s so much coming at you being in this room full of children all doing different things. And so to expect someone who’s paying attention to it at all to be able to then somehow tune in to what they’re supposed to be listening to and supposed to be doing. And then if you don’t do that, then you’re getting in trouble. It’s such an intense environment.

And I don’t think that a lot of adults recognize that or remember how it was. But when my son was very young, I was trying to picture him in that type of environment and how aware he was of what all the children were doing. And I was like, it’s just going to be too much for him.

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah. I remember when T?mana was at preschool and then one day he was inside and he was building with blocks. And his teacher said to me, oh, we were having a conversation, like an adult conversation, nothing bad, but they were talking about different countries they’d visited or something.

And they were sitting adjacent to him. But it was a day where there were other multiple children moving and talking and playing and stuff. And she said he was just sitting there doing his blocks and maybe with another kid as well. His cousin was there or something. And then he just started feeding into our conversation. And he’d fully been following it and he knew a whole lot of facts about one of the countries or something.

And she was just like, oh, kids aren’t normally that tuned into an adult conversation. We couldn’t talk about and we can’t talk about anything in our house. And we couldn’t from the time he was a baby, because he would come in and he just knew. He just was super hyper vigilant and aware and all of those things.

The other thing I think that makes it really hard for lots of our neurodivergent kids is T?mana does his learning by asking a lot of questions and info dumping. Those are his communication styles. And there’s no capacity for a teacher to deal with that.

I said to him the other day, he was asking about being at school and whether he might try to go back at some point. And I was like, yeah, one thing I noticed though about you, T?mana, is you like to ask a lot of questions. Do you know that when you’re in school, if there’s like maybe 15, 20, 25 kids in a class, what happens if every kid wants to ask one question at the start of a session? And he’s like, well, that wouldn’t work. And I was like, so how many questions do you reckon you’d get to ask a day? And he’s like, oh, never mind. Our kids learn in different ways and it just doesn’t work at school.

PAM: I do remember a very similar story. I was told by the teacher or the principal. Anyway, I guess my eldest was in class and the principal had come by to look in and could see that he was fiddling with stuff in his desk and playing, et cetera, et cetera.

So the principal called him out and started quizzing him and how he was supposed to be paying attention. And he answered every question about what the teacher was talking about. And yeah, it was probably the principal who told me this story because I talked to the principal a lot.

And he was just flabbergasted that he could know and understand what was going on all around him, even though he looked like he was doing something completely different. So yeah, the environment is just not a place where they can shine. And the other piece that bubbled up while you were talking, Melissa, is so often I think we can worry or wonder, could we even bring our child home to homeschool, unschool, et cetera? The child that we see in that environment and the challenges they’re having, oh, if they come home, I’m just going to have to deal with all those challenges. But no, it is such a different environment. 

MELISSA: Yeah, I see that again and again. 

PAM: Yeah, completely different child, right? 

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, we still get meltdowns and we still get dysregulation and stuff. But I think the thing as well that we’ve been talking about in the group a lot lately is there’s this spaciousness. There’s this time. And I did a member feature with one of our people yesterday, and she’s only been unschooling since the Unschooling Summit. So she did that and then she started unschooling. 

And she was just talking about how, in her family in particular, so her kids are six and two, and just how long everything’s taking to come to reading or come to dressing themselves or what the different things are. And I said, I think that is the thing with our neurodivergent kids is that everything does can take longer.

I spend a lot of time in my family with my wife saying, it’s okay, it’s just not yet. We can have that experience with our kids later. It’s not the time yet that it would actually be beneficial for them or that they would enjoy it or that it would go the way you think it might or you wish it would.

And we do need to face that with some of our neurodivergent kids that, for some of them, they are disabled in some ways and that things are going to take longer for them to get to certain ways of doing things or being able to regulate themselves or helping you within that space and that time. And we can just kind of lean into the season being longer and that they may not sleep any better than they did when they were babies until they’re 10 and that we have this kind of spaciousness that we can give them time.

We talked the other day, I think maybe it was with one of the Sunday Sessions, I’m not sure, or a Zoom I did recently. We talked about surrender and that surrendering is just such an important part of being a parent and particularly with some of this process. Yeah, that all of those kinds of aspects are really important because things might take longer and we don’t need to rush things.

And I think it was something that I think it was a quote I wrote down from you, Pam, once you guys were doing a talk and you were saying that unschooling learning is internalized and not memorized or something along those lines. And it’s like, yeah, we don’t want our kids to learn stuff by rote because they have to, whether it’s about the need to wash themselves or mathematics or whatever it is. We need them to come to that slowly in this expanding and contraction of their capacity and of their growth and a thing so that it’s really rooted in all aspects of themselves and their learning about themselves and so on. And we have the time for that. It can be hard as parents. 

ANNA: We also have neurodiversity here as well. And I think what time allowed what was to see the gifts. I think when you’re in that tightened timeline thinking we have to hit this milestone, we have to do this thing. There’s just only the deficit focus. That’s why it happens that way at school.

But I think unschooling really gives us that chance to see all the gifts. And so those timelines really have no value or meaning, because it’s just we get there when we get there. But oh, my gosh, there’s so much beauty along the way that it doesn’t feel like we’re missing anything. So I really love that. 

I’m going to change gears just a tiny bit for this next question, kind of bringing it back to us as parents. I recently had a little aha moment myself about capacity and understanding if I’m operating within my capacity, I’m able to hold things more lightly, and I’m able to be present and not have not take things so personally, not kind of crash and burn when things go awry.

And I mean, it seems really obvious when I say it out loud. But there was just an aha moment for me, because I think I do push beyond my capacity a lot. And I’m like, oh, okay, I need to be aware of this because it’s impacting the way I’m showing up and the way that I want to show up.

And so I know that you talk a lot about the importance of building capacity for ourselves. And so, I would just love to hear more about your experience with that, ideas you have around that, and just what your journey has been around that piece. 

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think especially for me, because it came into it in quite a deficit place, I didn’t have a lot of personal capacity. And now I know that as well as being a kind of PTSD, I was probably in autistic burnout from, I mean, my goodness, just being in a heart ward five weeks is kind of rather stimulating, because people are dying around you and you’re having CPR and stuff. So, I came into this whole season, pretty depleted.

And I really needed to be the one that was building my own capacity. And also, once we were about three or four months in, and things were starting to go quite fine and quite lovely. And we’d kind of done nothing schooling wise.

And then we started to try and do some arts and crafts with our daughter. And so that our son was starting to sniff around that and we were starting to just kind of gently ease into doing things and doing a few more trips out and so on as his capacity grew. And then my wife had a massive medical situation as well, and had to have massive surgery and nearly died as well.

So massive PTSD for the kids, bringing all that up again, and for me, and it was really rough. And so, capacity in our family has been super, super limited. And my wife now lives with an ongoing medical condition. I have to have a lot of capacity. And now I’m also running a business. And so, I’m trying to unschool and I do most of the outings for our family and try to run Weave and the Summit as well.

So, there’s a lot to be said for the pressures that are around you and kind of rising to the occasion, but that can only go on for so long. And so for me, what I did was I tried lots of different modalities to support myself and things like EMDR. And I think that dealing with your past trauma and your past history and so on is a really important thing to do. So I did a whole lot of work for me on this more recent trauma with EMDR and EFT tapping and different things to help my nervous system. And we see a chiropractor and so on. And all of those things are to support our central nervous system. But then I started doing breath work.

And for me, as an autistic ADHD person, meditation was very difficult for me to grasp. But breath work, which really, and it’s not like the Wim Hof style, it’s a polyvagal central nervous system relaxing breath work and it really is just breathing and you might hold like a yoga pose of some kind. But yeah, that has been very, very supportive for me in terms of my capacity. And so, I do lots of online programs where I’m doing breath work with other mostly mums. And that I’ve found has been extremely helpful for my capacity. 

And then when I started doing Weave, which is the community that I have, I noticed that so many of us were coming in crisis and that we were discovering that we had neurodivergent kids. Most of us didn’t know that we had neurodivergent kids until they burnt out in school. So the kids were in school refusal. They were coming home because there was no other option. And we were then realizing that we needed to unschool, not just homeschool. And unschooling, you guys all know this, but I think it’s a lot harder than homeschooling. There’s no curriculum.

You can’t just lock them in a curriculum and be like, do that, tick the boxes, red pen out. I don’t know if people use red pens, but you know. And that’s your schoolwork done for the day.

Unschooling is very, very intensive on parents because we actually all really want it to work. And we have all of this weight on ourselves to begin with, especially of like, we are holding this and we are taking this new path and it is on us. And lots of the people that I know don’t have fully supportive, committed partners to the process.

It’s like, okay, if that’s what you want to do, you’re responsible for the reading and the carrying out and the kind of reporting back to me if it’s working or soothing the other partner’s fears. 

And you’re going to be holding a whole lot. Often the families that I work with, just like us, are arriving into unschooling in a state of crisis. We’re not starting out in a nice, we’ve made a philosophical decision to unschool and we’ve known that since our children were small and we kind of ease our way into it. We just drop in, trial by fire. It’s all happening at once. And you’ve also got kids that are burnt out and in school refusal and you are at the scraping the barrel levels of your own capacity. 

And you’ve got a kid at home who is there 24 hours a day. Lots of our kids don’t sleep. We really, really need to build our capacity. It’s just essential. And also a lot of us are starting to realize in the process of having our kids diagnosed that we are neurodivergent too. And I think if we don’t build our capacity as neurodivergent parents of neurodivergent kids, if that’s your picture, then it’s going to be very difficult. It’s going to be very, very difficult to survive, let alone thrive, you know? 

And so I think that we need to get to a point where we can survive and then we need to be working towards thriving. And what I’ve done is I’ve tried out lots of different modalities because everything’s going to be different for what works for different people and what works for different seasons.

And I think for those of us that are unschooling, you have to have things that you can do in these little pockets of time that you have. And you need to find ways to kind of fill your bucket or your whatever you want to call it, your basket, in these tiny moments. And so for me, it’s things like purposely going and finding glimmers and noticing the moment that I take a sip of hot tea because it might be the only one that’s hot. We kind of talk about having a hot cup of tea is like, ahh! but the reality is maybe only you get the first few sips. Make sure you enjoy them, notice it, feel into that. Bank all of these small moments, so that when you do need to dig deep, because there will be multiple times probably through every day where you need to be holding something external from yourself, that you have some capacity. 

So, we use havening. I have a havening practitioner that comes into Weave and we do this, we do, that sounds really silly, we do this. Havening is like a whole movement that’s kind of continuing on from EFT, and it’s very good at bringing the nervous system back into alignment. And as an autistic ADHD person, havening practices are very accessible.

Finding a moment to breathe is often very, very inaccessible. So I find that things for me that are very physical, like feeling my toes as opposed to trying to do something like a 10 minute meditation. If my son is trying to get on the roof and I’m the person responsible for him not getting on the roof during a meltdown, I can do some havening or feel my toes. And I don’t have the time for anything else. 

So I think that really focusing on spending some time every day, doing one minute of havening to get that muscle memory in your body so that when you need it, you can grab it. And I find that the more that I put in these small practices, these small accessible practices, the more that I am able to have the capacity to feel like there is a well of all that I’m connected to and the earth and all, everything that I’m trying to hold, because otherwise I’m constantly in my head or beyond it. And I don’t feel in my body a lot. So I have to be very determined that I need to have these practices in my life because it’s very easy to let them go.

And ADHD, I love something and then I forget about it. I need to kind of keep coming back to things. 

ERIKA: That’s very relatable. I love the idea of practicing them over and over so that they almost come as second nature when you’re in the more difficult moments.

Yeah. I really love that.

MELISSA: It’s like anchoring.

ERIKA: And I was just thinking in some moments when we’re at low capacity, I’ve noticed a pattern of like, we tend to want to add even more things or notice even more things that are missing.

And so, for me, that’s one of the things I noticed. When I’m having a hard time things in my mind get worse and more intense rather than me trying to drop things. And so, I think that the physical practices would help a lot with just kind of coming back to center, but then also just remembering to let things go that I don’t need to deal with in this moment. Because there’s always plenty to deal with in that present moment.

MELISSA: Yeah. And I think for me and for lots of people, the overwhelm cripples you. And this is a small thing I can do to start to move. 

PAM: That was one of the big things that bubbled up for me too, how valuable it can be to make it almost second nature by practicing, giving ourselves a space in those less overwhelming moments so that we have it in our back pocket. Because it’s so easy to freeze and just forget all the tools that we have when we are in a challenging moment, so keeping them top of mind rather than saying, oh things are going well, I don’t need these tools right now. Then we don’t have access to them when we need them.

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah, we do havening once a month and during that time of practice it’s, oh I come out of there feeling like light as a feather. But what I was finding was that when I was feeling my dysregulation rising in a moment with my child when I needed to stay calm because their dysregulation was rising or going off, I wouldn’t remember to do it. And so yeah, so we did a thing in the group where we did one minute of havening every morning for 14 days and we all knew we could access one minute and now it’s second nature. So yeah, anchoring in and finding things that are accessible that actually work for us and for other people it might be like a different move or it might be tapping or something, but yeah, finding some, just some little thing that works for you. And for some people it is breathing and things, but for me it’s not always the easiest thing. It feels very forced to control my breath.

ERIKA: Right, yeah, I love that people are different so you have to find what works for you. So I just wanted to see if you wanted to share anything additional. Your group sounds amazing, Weave ND, and just your experience of creating that group and weaving unschooling together with running your businesses.

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah. Weave came about, when we were in that very stuck season when my wife Doria was very unwell as well and we were unschooling and I jumped into a really fantastic online community for unschoolers and we had these Zooms and they were fantastic, but what I was finding was that it made me feel a little more isolated some of them, because if we were talking about socializing of our kids or events or things, the advice that everyone else was sharing on the experiences was so different from ours because my son was not able to engage in those things. And so I ended up asking if I could run a Zoom for neurodivergent parents just to connect and talk within this other group.

And we had wonderful conversations and we started doing that monthly and for about two hours we’d have these meandering conversations that people could come in and get warmed up and then spill and not record it and so on. And then that group decided that they weren’t going to run as a community anymore and went off and did different things. And so I decided and they encouraged me to take it into Facebook and so I did that and then I ran that for two years from the time that I was doing it within the group to deciding that I needed to have employment and my wife couldn’t work.

And so the group, I was saying I was either going to have to close it down or start charging and so we moved into a paid membership community. And yeah, it’s fantastic and it’s a way that I can be at home with my kids and I run it mostly from home. I’m in a hired motel today for the internet.

I use the local motel to have fast speed internet because I’ve ended up doing things like the unschooling summit and I needed to be able to interview people and stuff that the internet wasn’t going to lag and the children weren’t going to come in with chickens and interrupt if I was interviewing some famous person like Pam Laricchia or whoever it was. 

But yeah, it’s been an amazing journey and with that journey I worked out that instead of just coming together and talking about our woes, which was a lot of what we were doing but that was becoming quite heavy, was that the key thing that I needed to focus on was this capacity building, because it was the piece that we were all really struggling with and I think also the kind of compassion part. A lot of us are not very good at being compassionate to ourselves in a very difficult circumstance that we’re living in at points of our journey. It can be really difficult and very isolated and so finding ways for us to like connect and be compassionate and then kind of build this capacity was so important. 

And so, part of that was that I spoke to Esther Jones about coming in and doing a mindfulness session for us and that just blossomed into a really amazing relationship which has been really cool and we decided to start working together more last September and then one of us just in one of the first emails we had backwards and forwards because she’d been in my community and been doing like you know mindfulness and so on but one of us said and I can’t remember which one of us it was, was like maybe we should do a summit. That would be cool. 

And so I was really passionate about more people hearing about unschooling with the neurodivergent flavor and she’s of course, an amazing unschooling person, figure and so we thought we might do like a one or two day summit and maybe invite sort of five or six speakers, weren’t sure, eight maybe and maybe a thousand people might come if we were lucky and we kind of both went nuts, hard out. 

She’s in the UK, I’m in New Zealand so one of us would be waking up full of enthusiasm and vim and vigor and the other person would be suggestible and tired and would agree to anything and so it just was this magic equation of alchemy of,I’ve had this idea overnight and I think we should this and the other one would be like okay look if you’re going to take care of that part it sounds fine with me go for it, invite them or do this or whatever. 

So I think it honestly was the fact that one of us would be fresh fueled up and one of us would be working on fumes and so we just kind of kept going but yeah it ended up amazing and it was such a joy for us to work together and to create the Summit. So that’s been pretty special and it has had a really strong neurodivergent flavor. It’s been really supportive for our ND families because so many of them are unschooling but yeah really, really broad, interesting thing to work on. So, that’s been pretty special.

ANNA: And so it will be happening again in the coming year? What are the plans?

MELISSA: Yeah, we’re working on it now so we’re doing early morning or late night Zooms again. It’ll be happening in the last weeks of March. I can’t think of a date right now so yeah of next year, same thing three days all for free online and lots of amazing speakers. I’m sure you guys will get invited to be on panels and speak and so on so yeah we’ve got some different ideas this year, ways of doing things. 

So, yeah, we’re really keen to have like the diversity of unschoolers reflected which was one of our key things last year and I really loved that people were brave enough to say yes to these two people that well they certainly didn’t know me, they do now but yeah, it’s been pretty amazing and really lovely for my community as well because I’ve had some wonderful people come in and speak within the community now that I know more people and I don’t need to be so shy to ask people to come in and talk and so on.

PAM: I really enjoy participating in it as well but also your piece of finding stuff that you can do for the most part within your home life. You can do it from home mostly, you can like and the people like in your community, they understand obviously the circumstances of your family life as well, so you can have chickens come in and kids.

MELISSA: Yeah, exactly and like yeah, I think that is something I did want to talk about, it’s encouraging people to be entrepreneurial. I think unschoolers often are very entrepreneurial, it’s a very common kind of thing and partly it’s probably out of desperation because we need to make money and get creative about how we’re going to do it. But there is that real spark of not needing to live by the rules and not needing to do things the same way and not wanting to work for a boss and so on. And I do most of my stuff from the kitchen bench or a chair in my bedroom and the kids come in and out and I do have a caravan in the garden but it’s not any less kid infested. 

So, I come here to do the recordings because of the internet quality but you can do these things from the kitchen bench with your kid across from you and needing to get up and make snacks and it all just happens and when you find the thing that you’re passionate about, just like our kids, you can just focus on that and they can see. 

My son is so invested, drives him nuts, he doesn’t want me on the laptop and he gets very dysregulated part of the time as well but he’s so proud. And anywhere we go out, he’s like, oh yeah, my mama has an online business and she does this summit and she does that and so he tells everyone, oh we’re unschoolers and my mum is an advocate. 

And our kids seeing us do something and seeing us mess it up or fail or have a bad day or send the wrong email or whatever. It’s all such vital learning and that was something I think I got from your podcast as well, Pam, I binged yours, and Esther’s, Stark Raving Dad, I was in that really stuck season where my wife was very unwell and my child was in crisis and was having constant meltdowns and stuff because of like the PTSD and we were getting the autism diagnosis and stuff, I just went, I need to work on me. I need to feel like I’m not stuck so I’m just going to educate myself in every way, shape and form about unschooling and then about neurodivergence and the crossover. 

And hearing all of your different interviews with different people and all of the different ways that unschooling has gone but part of it for me because I’ve been an entrepreneur in the past was you talking about, you know, you get to actually indulge in your interests as an unschooler because you kind of have to because you need to model that for your kids and you need to not go crazy and I heard stories over and over of people saying, I just do my thing and my kids are around. And that was really motivational for me. It was like, yeah, I could just do my thing and the kids could be around. 

It’s hard, and I’m often working till 11 or later at night. With the Summit, we’re up till 1 many, many times and you just fit it in around and you’re really tired and you have bloodshot eyes and you have bags under your eyes but it is possible. I hear other people say, oh no, you need to dedicate at least one day out a week where you go and you do this and whatever and it’s like sometimes it’s just not the reality and if you’re going to wait for that, you’ll never start these things. You’ve just got to dive in, just like we tell our kids, I suppose, if we sit around waiting until everything’s perfect, we’re never gonna get anywhere.

ANNA: That conventional wisdom, right? If you’re going to do a business, you do x, y, z, do the checkbox, but really there are so many ways. And if we can make it fit for our life, that keeps our enthusiasm going, that makes it work for our families and we’re much more likely to then be successful at it. So, yeah, I think that’s always a great reminder.

MELISSA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s definitely a juggling act and I have to be careful not to burn out because of my autistic hyperfocus but, I love that.

PAM: Yeah.I think that piece that you mentioned is just beautiful. Because then you’re thinking about being an entrepreneur and you go and you start looking and you want to learn and it is so much about, do x, y, z, and make sure you tell everybody that when your door is closed, you don’t interrupt me. All these “tips” for working from home, etc.

But what we learn through unschooling, is that we can question conventions, right? So, we can do things differently and not just for the sake of it, but because it works better. It actually works better for us. It keeps our relationships. It keeps our connections.

Yes, we’re up and down and doing this thing and that thing. And maybe it feels like juggling a few things. But you know what? Even the challenge of juggling a few things, in my experience, for my brain, just works better than trying to spend all my energy to get those two hours alone to focus. Even now, when my kids are adults, it’s just how my brain works. And valuing that over trying to make myself conform.

And then your children seeing you do it, even my adult children seeing me play around and doing this thing and trying this thing, etc. It’s just our lives all weaving together, which just feels so much better than trying to put boundaries and separations between it all.

MELISSA: And my kid’s really invested. He comes in and he checks my phone, because when payments come through, it’s updated to my bank on my app. And so he’s like, monitoring there. And he’s like, now I’ve heard this thing on a podcast, where there’s this thing that you can get, this piece of tech. He comes in and he tries to advise and he’s really invested.

And I love that. He’s thinking about it. He’s won a Lego competition recently, because Lego is his special interest. And he’s phenomenal at it. And it was with a real estate agent. So, now he’s engaged his own real estate agent. And so, he keeps telling people, do you know many 10-year-olds with a real estate agent? He hasn’t earned a dime yet, but he’s like, when I make my millions on these particular business plans, because he’s going to be an entrepreneur, then he’s going to have her looking for a piece of land in advance. And it’s just, I don’t know, I love that he has really big dreams. And because he can see me starting something from scratch and growing a thing, he’s learning all of that stuff. And he’s really invested.

And my daughter as well, but she’s more independent whereas he’s more up in my business. She’s out in the garden and doing her own thing. Yeah.

ERIKA: So I just love all the space. Everyone can be doing the things that work so well for them. And we’re all figuring it out. I feel like that’s something so valuable about the unschooling journey is just like, we are all getting to figure out what works well for us and getting to follow our interests. And it’s just a lot of fun.

So, this has been so much fun, Melissa, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that you all enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network.

It’s an amazing group of people having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. And you can also check out our new substack at whenschoolisn’tworking.substack.com. And the Network is at livingjoyfullyshop.com on the community tab at the top of the page. So thank you so much for listening. And we will see you next time.

PAM: Thanks so much, Melissa! We’ll have all your links there in the show notes as well. Bye!

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Every Moment is a Choice.

It’s common in our culture to look at our lives in terms of “have-tos,” but staying in that space takes away our agency and our joy. By getting curious about our have-tos, we can figure out what is really important to us and play with ways to make the things we do more enjoyable. And in difficult moments, when it really feels like terrible things are happening to us, we still have the choice of how to respond, what story we tell about our situation, and what energy we bring to it. Realizing how much choice we have can be so empowering!

We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

Want the full collection of Living Joyfully Foundations podcast episodes as an audiobook (and the transcripts edited into an ebook)? Find them here in the Shop!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

ANNA: Hi, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We’re happy you’re here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about choice. I love talking about and grounding ourselves in choice, because life is filled with choices from the mundane to the epic. And for the most part, it’s an invisible process. We’re making decisions on the fly throughout the day. Other decisions are made with a lot of deliberation and forethought and take a lot of time, but the ability to choose is something that empowers us. The knowledge that, no matter what, we have a choice.

PAM: Right, and that is so surprisingly easy to forget in the moment. I can find myself moving through parts of my day almost by rote, and sometimes that means I’m in the flow of things, feeling good and accomplishing things I want and choose to do. And other times things start to rub.

When I start hearing myself say, “Oh, I have to do this,” that feeling that I don’t have a choice is a good clue that I’m probably feeling a bit overstretched or under-resourced, and it’s a great clue to step back, take a breath, and just take a moment to look around a bit.

It’s so easy to fall into the “I have to” trap, because it is used so much in our culture. The phrase “I have to,” or, “You have to,” has become so commonplace that we’ve mostly stopped questioning it altogether. It just seeps into our everyday language. We say we have to go to the store, we have to brush our teeth, we have to go to bed, and so many more things. And soon, we start to believe that we have to do all the things, that we don’t have a choice, that we are, in fact, prisoners to a long list of have to’s.

And not only that, when we come to feel that we don’t have choices and buy into this whole “have to” ethos, it’s usually not long before we start to feel pulled to impose them on others. “This has to be done and you have to help,” which then can lead to judging others around the things we think they have to do. Like, “Why aren’t they doing this thing I don’t want to do, but have to do?” It is so disempowering and disconnecting.

So, taking a moment to look at a situation, any situation, even small everyday ones, and noticing that choices actually exist helps us let go of that overwhelming feeling of being trapped in our days. It reminds us that we have agency. We can use phrases like, “I have to,” or, “You have to,” as red flags, signs that it’s a good time to step back and see where we’re feeling pinched, where we’re feeling controlled, because definitely those things can sneak up on us bit by bit.

And then, we can dig deeper to identify our underlying needs, find the choices in the soil of the have to’s and shift things up to meet our needs in ways that don’t include controlling others or even using control tactics on ourselves. Realizing that I always have choices has been such a freeing and empowering mindset shift for me. It’s just been amazing.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. For me, too. It’s been such a critical part. The shift from feeling like life is happening to me, to understanding my agency and navigating this thing called life. It’s funny, I have a good friend whose husband does not buy into this idea at all. So, he believes, “There aren’t always choices, Anna,” but I find it so interesting.

And one of the examples he used was, “Well, we have to do the animal chores in the morning.” So, they have a small farm, donkeys, goats, chickens. And here’s the thing. They don’t have to do that. They could choose to re-home the animals. They could skip the morning chores or do them later. I know the lap of luxury these animals live in and they would be just fine. They could also hire someone to do the chores for them.

There’s always a choice and with each choice, we hone in on our priorities. They don’t want to re-home the animals. They love them. They love bringing the special treats in the morning and moving the donkeys to the track to watch them play and run. They don’t have to do those things. They want to. And maybe they decide it’s not worth the money to pay someone else, or in that choice, they realize that they actually enjoy it and might miss it and don’t want someone else doing it for them.

And so, then it’s like, okay, so if we’re feeling pinched about time, in that exploration, they might find they’d rather free up time in another way, adjusting something they don’t enjoy as much. What a different feeling than to feel we’re held hostage by an obligation. And maybe it’s just semantics and energy, but I really think it’s worth examining our language about any of these have to’s and deciding if that language is serving us.

Is it helping us find joy? Is it helping us enjoy the things around us? Could examining it as a choice help us understand what we actually want to do and how we want to spend our time and resources?

PAM: Yes. I think what can happen over time is that we make a choice and then it’s new and exciting.

We relish it. It’s fun. And then, over time, we shortcut our language down to, “I have to.”

For me, it feels like as the activity becomes more commonplace in my days, “Every morning I’ve got to go take care of the animals,” my internal language becomes more efficient. “I have to take out the animals, I have to take the dogs out,” all the all the things. “I have to go grocery shopping, I have to clean the bathrooms.”

And I think the word obligation is a great way to describe that feeling and the growing weight of it. And I think we can naturally start to resist that obligation and maybe even start to resent it. So, if our internal “have to” language doesn’t catch our attention, eventually that growing weight of obligation or resentment definitely might. So, time to dig in and see what’s in there. What’s the rub?

And what’s so interesting is so often digging in helped me remember my why. So, you had that wonderful example about the animals. I’m going to take a quick moment to look at cleaning bathrooms, because it is a very basic example. But to give you an idea of ways to dig into those festering feelings.

So, I can remind myself that I enjoy the feeling of walking into a clean bathroom. If I realize that’s even feeling a bit stale for me, I can start there. So, maybe I choose to spruce up the bathroom a bit, bringing in a plant or two, or some art for the walls. Maybe I print out an inspirational quote or two that makes me smile, or a couple of pictures that make me laugh and I tape them to the mirror. How can I more enjoy walking into this mostly utilitarian room?

I find that is such a fun way to look at things. It’s like, cleaning the bathroom, what do you mean decorating it or whatever? But that is a wonderful aspect to look at, too.

I can also contemplate the cleaning schedule that I’m holding myself to. There are no bathroom police that are going to come and arrest me if I don’t stick to it. So, what if I change that up, extending the period between deep cleans? How does that feel? I can try it out and see. That’s something you can always play with and is likely to change over time, depending as the number of people rise and fall.

So, just because we’ve done it weekly for years doesn’t mean it has to be weekly forever more. That frequency may well change over the seasons of our lives.

And we can look at the how. How can I make it easier for me to slip into cleaning? Can I keep the cleaning supplies in the bathroom ready to grab quickly? That may mean having more supplies up front, but they each last longer, because they’re only being used in one bathroom. So, it works itself out. Can I make the process itself more enjoyable? I often put on my headphones and listen to podcasts or sometimes upbeat music to help my body get moving. Or we could also choose to pay for cleaning service if that’s an option. There are just so many possibilities.

So, after taking some time to dig in and discover what’s really rubbing for me, so often, I still do the thing. I clean the bathrooms. But my internal language is much different now, because I remembered how much choice and agency I have. It may not be the most fun I’ll have all day, but I remember why I want to do it and I’ve made the process more pleasurable, particularly the bits of the process that were rubbing me the wrong way. My internal language is lighter. Maybe even, “I want to clean the bathrooms today,” rather than that obligatory weight of, “I have to.”

It’s so fascinating to see that we can find choice even in the most mundane bits and pieces of life.

ANNA: And just how different it feels when we do. I mean, those choices all along the way. And I think the money piece that I talked about is a really interesting way to check in. So, do I want to pay somebody to do this? Does it have that value or is it not that big of a deal? Is my time more valuable there?

It’s playing with it, asking questions that we talk so much about. It just opens up instead of getting stuck in the weight of the have to’s. So, yeah, I love that, because again, I just really think it helps us hone in on our priorities and get back to that why, like you said, and then we know, okay, I got these animals for a reason and I like having a clean bathroom and that’s why I’m doing it for me. Whatever those things are, getting back to that why.

PAM: Yeah. And I love that priority piece. That was episode number one, because that is so foundational, playing around with our priorities and the time that we’ve got, the things that we want to do. We can always bring it back there to realize that we have choices with all the things that we think are on our plate.

ANNA: Yes. And it just really changes things. But I do want to talk about times when it feels like there really is no choice, that life has happened to us. There’s a tragedy, a death, a loss of something that’s out of our control, because that’s going to happen to all of us. It’s certainly happened to me and realizing I still had the choice of how I react made all the difference in moving through those difficult events. No, I couldn’t change the fact that the job was lost or the injury happened, but I could decide how I was going to let that impact my mood, how I was feeling, and how I wanted to move through the world.

So, for me, that helped me to put things into perspective and to feel again, that life wasn’t just happening to me. I’ve had some pretty difficult things happen to me over the years. We all have, but the times I’m able to ground back into who I want to be, how I want to learn from what’s happening around me, and how I want to find joy, even in the darkest moments, those were the times that I moved through the events with the most ease. It’s not easy necessarily, but with more ease than when I was fighting and bucking against the reality of what was happening.

And, for me, gratitude was a big part of that. Finding those little spots of gratitude is a choice, and I found that I could find them even in the darkest of days. And with that choice, that first move towards looking for the tiny points of light, the shifts would start and new ways forward would present themselves.

PAM: Yes, definitely. Things happen in our lives that are out of our control. Times where we find ourselves just reacting to things. It can feel like our life has come to a standstill with this big thing. And for a time, that can definitely be helpful, because it needs immediate attention, right? Yet moving through these challenging events often takes time and staying stuck in that emergency mode can have its consequences.

So, for me, once the initial shock and overwhelm began to ease a bit, I found it helpful to gently remind myself to come back to the present whenever I noticed myself getting stuck in my head with my swirling thoughts. Because in the present, I slowly began to notice those bits and pieces of life that are happening around me. Those spots of gratitude, as you mentioned, Anna, even small ones, like how the light comes through the window, a moment of connection with my child that makes me smile. Continuing to bring myself to the present, soon I was open enough to start to see more possibilities, new ways forward that I couldn’t see when I was like stuck in tunnel vision. I began to see choices.

ANNA: Yes. And that’s what it’s all about, finding our way to just seeing the choice in the moments. And so, this leads to another area where our choices influence our perspective. And it’s an area where we often give away our powers. And it’s, we tell our own stories. We’re the creators, we’re the writers, we’re the orators of these stories of our lives.

And digging into stories is so important to us that we’re going to do an entire episode on it in a couple weeks, but I think it’s worth talking about it right now in this context of choice and seeing how it’s playing out in our days, because our stories have a way of defining us for ourselves and for others. For ourselves, they become this sort of self-talk. If that talk is negative and full of worry and distress, then we can become that. If that talk is positive and full of joy and gratitude, then we become that. We start to embody it.

For others, it colors the way they see us. They trust that our story is our truth. And if that truth is steeped in frustration and anger, then we can attract the frustrated and angry, because it’s that whole misery loved company thing. And if that truth is infused with joy and gratitude, we tend to attract the people that are looking for joy and gratitude. And I’ve found that, for me, where I put my energy is the areas that I’m growing. And so, I just want to be really aware of that. And so, again, it just boils down to this choice. How do we want to spend our energy and what do we want to attract with it?

PAM: Yeah. The stories we tell ourselves and those around us have such a big impact on us. So, I am really looking forward to diving into that idea more deeply in a couple of weeks. But it is also a great lens to consider when we’re thinking about choice, because if the story we’re telling ourselves and the people around us is that we don’t have a choice, that we have to do X, Y, Z, that’s most likely going to be the one we all run with. So often, we treat our stories as facts. “This is the situation. Now where do we go from here?” And that’s where people join us.

So, if our story is grounded in frustration and full of have to’s, that’s where they join us, often sharing their frustrations and just generally tossing around in the muck with us. Back to that misery loves company. But if our story is steeped in choice and possibilities, that’s where they’ll jump in with us. Oh, that is a big change. Best of luck with that. Have you considered this? They’re just generally more supportive and helpful. And both stories can absolutely be true to the facts. But we get to choose which one we tell ourselves and others, which one feels better to us in the moment. And that is not a trick question. Sometimes what feels better is to vent, right?

But it is absolutely helpful to remember that it’s a choice and we don’t need to stick to that version of our story forever.

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. We can change a story when it stops serving us. That’s another big revelation. Like, “Oh, this story I’ve been hanging onto, I can change it up.” So, lots to consider there.

So, we’re going to leave you with a few questions to ponder.

First, do you find yourself saying, “I have to,” a lot? Really listen, because actually we don’t even always notice it.

PAM: That’s so true.

ANNA: Tune in. Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently? And kind of like you talked about, Pam, it tends to be those under-resourced moments, where we kind of start clicking off the have to’s and the giant list and all the things.

How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment?

PAM: So, I think that’ll be a big one. You don’t even have to like move forward with it, but just take a moment to think, “Oh, what if I had a choice?” If you can’t see a choice yet. But it could even just be how does it feel to think about, “Oh, what if there were choices?” And that I think can be the first little baby step.

ANNA: I’m so curious how my friend’s husband’s going to think about some of this stuff, because he listens to the podcast. And so, what does it feel like to just think, but what if you did have a choice? What if you let go of that story that you don’t?

So, another thing is, what helps you find your center when you’re moving through a challenge? I think that can just be really helpful, because we’re going to keep getting challenge. So, helping people understand what helps us move through that, what helps it feel a bit more with ease, what helps us find that gratitude, whatever it is that feels good.

And lastly, what choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life? Yeah, that’s going to be good. Because we’re always telling stories. If you’re sitting there listening, going, “I don’t know if I have stories,” no, you do. You have stories. And let’s look at them like, because these can be things we are carrying with us for a long time. And again, check back in a couple weeks when we really dig into stories as well.

So, just thinking about this idea of choice, I think is just interesting. Play with it. How does it feel? What feels better? How does it work? So, yeah, I think it’s going to be fun.

PAM: Yes, I think so, too. And that stories one, too. As you said, if you don’t think you’re telling stories, I think just take a pull back and instead of choices around the stories you’re telling yourself, think about, what stories am I telling myself? Just start to look through the lens of story and see how that feels. See what you see. I think it’ll be so interesting to dive into.

ANNA: Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.

PAM: Bye.

We are back with another episode in our Unschooling Stumbling Blocks series and this time, we’re talking about unschooling with strong beliefs.

Sometimes our strong beliefs can be a stumbling block along our journey when we put the belief ahead of our relationships. When those moments come up in our families, it can help to remember that our own strong beliefs work for us, for now, but that people are different. And leaving space for people to choose what works for them can strengthen our connection and build trust. Whether the strong belief is about food, spending time in nature, early bedtimes, a particular type of social interaction, or anything else, taking time to peel back the layers and examine how these beliefs affect our relationships can be so enlightening!

We really enjoyed diving into this topic and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, coaching, and more!

The Living Joyfully Network

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about supporting our children’s autonomy. Come and be part of the conversation!

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ERIKA: Hello, everyone! I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both.

So, today we’re going to be talking about another unschooling stumbling block, which is when parents have strong beliefs. It’s a topic that comes up a lot and I’m really excited for this conversation.

But before we begin, I wanted to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, which has been really life changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have amazing discussions about so many topics, since our community has such a wide variety of experiences. Everyone there is really learning and growing and being intentional with their families. It’s really unlike any other online community that I’ve found.

The Living Joyfully Network offers such powerful support, especially during those moments when questions and fears come up or if you’re new to unschooling and just need a place where people understand what you’re going through. If you’d like to learn more about the Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on the Community tab. We’ll also leave a link in the show notes and we would love to meet you there!

So, Pam, would you like to get us started about unschooling with strong beliefs?

PAM: Strong beliefs, yes. I would very much like to do that, because exploring the idea of strong beliefs has definitely inspired an important paradigm shift for me on this journey. Because, of course we can hold beliefs so strongly that it feels like a truth for us, but the big shift for me around this was recognizing that it was my truth and that didn’t mean that it was a universal truth. Because, as we may have mentioned, people are different! My kids, my partner, my friends, they aren’t me.

And yes, a strong belief I hold is something that is working well for me, right, that helps me care for myself, helps me be the person that I want to be but that strength of that belief comes from so much experience. I’ve probably tried on numerous different perspectives along the way that didn’t quite click or that maybe sent me in a direction that I eventually found I didn’t like. So, trying to wholesale drop my strong belief and all the experience that comes with it onto someone else’s lap just isn’t going to land with that depth of understanding.

And as I was thinking about it, to me, it’s really like that web of learning that I talk about. So many bits of life are connected in interesting ways and that’s what’s bringing the richness of understanding, not that one point of information or a belief that is disconnected from a person’s experience.

So, I remember thinking back when I was first playing with this paradigm shift, I just kind of stopped jumping in to share my strong belief in the moment. And it felt a bit like I was betraying myself by not sharing my hard earned knowledge with the people that I loved, earnestly trying to convince them of its validity and that it’s the one right way in the circumstances, like it makes sense.

But when I managed to put the “it makes sense to me, let’s see how things unfold here,” oh my gosh, they unfolded in such interesting ways, in ways that I could see and I look back on that moment more closely aligned with the person that they were at that time, and in ways that they learned something that stayed with them. It was a meaningful experience for them instead of me popping in with what the cumulative belief of all my meaningful experiences along the way.

So, it doesn’t mean that I’m tossing my belief, because I know it works well for me. And nor does it mean never sharing what works for me. Those are like the opposite ends of that spectrum, and at first I needed to not share so I could see well, what would happen? Would the world end? Would they choose like something that I wouldn’t choose and it was a big catastrophe? Those pieces did not happen.

So, for me, it came to me just being more careful to share my stronger beliefs without the energy of an expectation that others take it on as their truth. I want to be in that space or that mindset first before I share, where I can see it has more information that I’m sharing with them. They learn a little bit about me, because this is something that is meaningful to me and makes sense for me and so they see how I kind of see the world, how I navigate things, and they’re welcome to try it out and see if it fits for them, see if they might want to tweak it without any fear of feeling judged by me if it didn’t work for them, at least for now. It’s not that this is your one opportunity to decide or not to adopt this belief wholesale. There are going to be so many experiences now and into the future.

There are experiences now where I get to revisit my strong beliefs and see if they are still working for me and see if they’re still making sense. So each moment is just like another point in that web of learning, another piece of experience that we can bring with us and it just makes the next time something similar comes up a richer moment because we have more experience and more thoughts and stuff to draw from as we come up with the plan for this time.

ANNA: Yeah, I think the thing that stood out for me that you were just talking about is how unique our journey is to the strong belief and how it is so involved. We really don’t just kind of pop with a strong belief out of nowhere. It comes from this experience. It comes from going down a road that was maybe the opposite and realizing that doesn’t feel good. We’re taking in information. So, again, so personality-dependent. Have I done a lot of research about this? And I feel really strongly and I’ve done all these pieces. But that’s what holds it up is all of that experience that I’m bringing to that moment. So, like you said, we just really can’t hand it over to someone and think that it’s going to have the same meaning to them.

And I think the challenge becomes, too, if we’re coming at people with the strong belief and not really giving them a chance to even have a chance to figure out if it works for them and try it on. We’re coming with this judgment piece. That was the other thing you said that I thought was important. I think it can lead people to believe we’re judging them if they don’t hold the same strong belief, whether that’s our children or partner or friends. And so, that’s not where we foster understanding. That’s not where we foster connection.

Because I do have strong beliefs, 100%. I have strong beliefs. But like you said, it’s from my learning what I know about me. And I can get excited about sharing those beliefs. But just like you, I had to go through a process of like slowing some of that down, making sure there was room for conversation, understanding what’s happening with the people around me so that we could have a more rich conversation and it didn’t feel like that judgment piece was coming in.

ERIKA: I mean, it is such an interesting and rich topic. And that’s why I think it comes up a lot. Because what it can feel like is, when we’re the one with the strong belief, it can feel like, “But this is a fact. And my child is going against this fact of life that I know in my heart is so true and right and good.”

And so, that’s where you get those relationship rubs. But if we come in really believing there is only this one right way, then we can put a lot of judgment on the other person, not give them room to come up with their own answers to things. And we forget about that whole history that we have of, how did we even get to have this belief? And I know we’ve seen lots of examples, just around of people who have had a strong belief that they grew up with and then change it in adulthood. Strong beliefs, even when they’re that strong, can change.

And so, I think just remembering that and noticing that there’s not one right way. And no matter what belief you’re thinking about, whether it’s something about diet or something about a religious belief or something about the right way to do a certain thing, any belief that you can kind of think of, you can find people who are doing it another way and it’s working out okay for them. And so, I think just noticing that, remembering that, and any time I start thinking, “They should do this,” you know, “They should be like this, I figured it out and this is the way,” that’s a good clue for me to kind of pause and get a little more curious about like, okay, this is probably my strong belief and not something that I need to give to everyone else.

But I think also there could be excitement about our strong beliefs that make it hard to not try to put that on everyone else, especially if we’ve been through a long period of learning and figuring out and trying to see, like, okay, what is the best diet? And then we start eating this way and we feel great and we want to convince everyone in the world. And so that comes from a good place. But once you start to see the kind of rubs in the relationship, either with your kids or other people in your lives, I think that’s interesting. It’s just another place to do that navigating of our relationships.

PAM: I think what helped me, because thinking back, that deschooling season of our journey when we’re questioning so many things, so it sparked, Erika, when you said it feels like a truth, right? And so, what was helping me was also exploring what we’ve come to describe as people are different.

Because it’s so easy to just assume other people are experiencing the world the same way we are, right? Because that is the only lens we have. So, the idea that people are different, that people could be experiencing things differently. We talk about sometimes not putting ourselves in their shoes, but looking through their eyes. All those ideas alongside, they helped me understand how a strong belief could be my truth. Instead of the truth.

And that it didn’t diminish it just because it was my truth. It’s a powerful thing, because now that self-awareness that people are different, I can now really own and embrace what’s working for me. So it was just really helpful to be able to see that separation that helped me more embrace my strong belief without feeling I had to give it up, because it wasn’t the truth. Well, then, what is the truth? It’s like, it’s okay that it works for me. And there are some really good reasons why it may not work for someone else. It may not work for my child.

Whether it’s from personality things, or just experiences, or it’s a different world 20 years later than when I was whatever age. There’s so many different aspects to it. And once you start to see the context, right? We talk about context so much. Then being able to bring that to this strong beliefs conversation going on in my head was really helpful.

ANNA: Yeah, I think the people are different thing is so critical here. And I feel like my kids definitely led the way with this paradigm shift for me. And even in little ways, like we experience temperature different. So, my mom was always like, have a coat on the kids, you know, that’s a thing. That’s a good parent. You’re bringing coats and putting coats on your kids. Not in Miami, but this is like up here where I live. And so I’m thinking, okay, that’s what you do.

But then I had a child that just ran hot. Did not want to wear shoes, did not want to wear coats. And I’m like, okay, why do I have a belief that somehow this is tied to like good parenting? And so, just that little bit of, she’s experiencing this exact same situation differently, even though that’s not a super strong belief, it started to crack that open for me to be like, okay, we actually do really have different experiences of the world.

We really do. Even something that, I mean, well, the temperature saying this shouldn’t that mean that you’re cold? But no, it doesn’t, because we’re all so different. And then it starts to go, oh, I’m really grounded outside and feel great when I move my body outside. This child doesn’t. It’s itchy and it’s scratchy and it’s warm and it doesn’t feel good and they don’t like it. Oh, okay. But aren’t we supposed to do this?

So then, it was just like slowly, this crack just got wider and wider as I realized we really do experience the world so differently. And then I feel like Pam, because you’ve been talking about open and curious for so long, that’s what I switched to. Like, okay, so if it’s not what I think it’s supposed to be, if it’s not, there’s this one right way, I want to be curious about how we’re finding our right ways and what that looks like.

And so it was, it was a really fascinating process for me. I really do remember these steps along the way, because I had a lot of strong opinions. I still do, but I was much more militant about them in my twenties, in early life for sure.

ERIKA. Yeah. I was thinking it feels like this is something that grows in with age, it becomes easier to see that everyone has their own beliefs as I get older, where in those college years and a little beyond that, it was like, no, there’s one right way and I know what it is. And so, that’s funny.

And I was thinking about this conversation also, once you start thinking about, what are my own strong beliefs? It’s possible that some of them are so externally influenced, that maybe they’re not even our own strong beliefs. Maybe they’re just part of a culture that we’re trying to be a part of. I’m thinking things like kids need to be outdoors or kids should go to bed early or things that you may see around you in parenting circles or with parent friends.

But if you sit down and really start to think about it, maybe those aren’t my actual strong beliefs. Maybe it’s just something that I’m hearing a lot and so that it starts to feel like it’s important. And so, yeah, just anytime if my kid’s pushing against being outside because it doesn’t feel good and it’s so hot and humid and sticky and terrible, it’s like, okay, so which is more important? The going outside and pushing that or is listening to them and knowing that people are different? I mean, there are still people enjoying being outside during this season in Miami and we aren’t and that’s okay.

But if I was going to take on that belief of, this is so important and everyone needs to spend time outside, it could get in the way of my relationship with my kids.

PAM: Yeah, I think that’s such a great point that some of our strong beliefs maybe were just adopted as the conventional wisdom that we hear all the time. So, that’s why it is so valuable to just take that moment to ask ourselves, where is that coming from? And is it something like that makes sense to me?

That was one of the things I did a lot of questioning about as we came to unschooling, which was like, so what does my experience look like? At first it was my experience with school growing up, that came with me wholesale, but what exactly did that look like? Which parts worked better for me? Which ones were more challenging? So taking the conventional wisdom around school and then asking, is that really true? And then looking back at my own literal experience to see what I could discover and then start to understand what it actually looked like to me and what I believed about it versus just the conventional story that I had just kind of adopted wholesale.

But it’s not like we can do this with everything all the time, right? It’s pretty challenging work and also, I mean, that’s what conventional wisdom is for, helping you move quickly through something. Oh, well, most people do it this way. I don’t think that’s going to make a big mess and we do it and totally good. Those are our shortcuts.

But it’s when they start to do things, right? Like rub in a relationship or end us up in a place where we’re not feeling comfortable anymore after we do the thing, like this isn’t working for me as I was hoping. And so, that is one other aspect I wanted to bring up too is when our strong beliefs get woven in with our personal values. Like, I value being open, as in sharing a level of details. Or I want us like to be an outdoor family. I want us to be out doing things or I want us to have dinners together or like whatever it is that we feel is a personal value but to recognize when we like a value like that actually isn’t just our own, right? It’s not a personal value. It includes other people when you have a family that you think should all be having dinner together and it can be so tricky.

I definitely had that and tried to do that, right? But navigating a value that requires other people to participate in it, oh my gosh, that’s when the rubs can start, right? And you can start to realize and question, is this really something that’s important to me? Why is it important to me? What does it look like? Because you start putting expectations on others and then you start looking through their eyes and you can see, oh I can see why this isn’t working for them, etc. It’s just like another, as you were saying, Erika, another good clue that we might want to revisit something and is it and just trying to think through like is this a value? Is this a belief? How am I bringing that into the world? Who am I expecting to not just take my belief but participate in my belief?

ANNA: Right. And I’m so glad you brought this one up. I definitely wanted you to, because I think it’s so critical. And I hope I’m going to articulate this in a way that makes sense, but there was an example on the Network around this that was interesting, because the strong belief that was kind of praised as a personal value was that everyone needs to contribute to the family as a whole. But it was rubbing. And so, it was causing friction and causing problems.

And you brought this up that that has to be tricky to have this personal belief that you need other people to participate in in order for it to feel good. And what I think is important for me to recognize is when I put it into a personal value which is really this strong belief that’s come and I now I’ve reframed it as a personal value it kind of shuts down the learning for me and for those around me, because I can kind of stand on my high horse of personal value. Like, this is this thing and it is a value that we should all hold to be good people. You can just hear it. It’s like rhetoric, almost. And it’s stopping me from seeing anything else.

And so, that was the clue for me of, oh okay if my personal value is to contribute in this way I can do that, right? That is something that I can do and show up. But if I’m wanting someone else to, I’m not taking them into consideration because we’re not even having a conversation about it. I’ve just already decided that I need you to.

And so, what was cool about the situation in the Network is they really started having different kinds of conversations and they started figuring out how to meet all the needs and they started breaking it down into, okay who feels which way about what things what feels harder? Let’s learn about each other. And so, there was all this rich learning and it became so much richer than standing here on this place of, I’m right because this is this personal value.

And so, I love that additional learning about each other. And to me these are things that are just so important about learning to live with other human beings in general and it’s not about whatever the particular value is, because we all have different ones. And like you said, Erika, it could be the early bird gets the worm so everybody needs to go to bed early and get up early, so they’re filtering from all of these cultural narratives. But then we create it as a value that you’re a better person if you’re doing that, if you’re out there getting this. And so, I think it would just be really fun for people to think about, where do I have this strong belief and is it about diet or sleep or parenting or whatever? And again, it’s not about letting go of the strong belief, because you know I’m a huge advocate for children I have a lot of strong beliefs about how I would love all children to be treated, but if I stand there I’m not learning, I’m not reaching, I’m not connecting with anybody. And so, that’s kind of what sticks out for me, and so I love that you brought that point up.

ERIKA: Yeah, I really liked that conversation on the Network, too, and I feel like what was interesting about it is that if I feel like I have a value of everyone in the family contributes and that feels like very important and sacred and wonderful to me, then I think everyone else should also feel that way and that the work that they do to contribute is coming because we have that same shared value/belief. And so, it’s coming from this deeper place.

And so, then that’s why it rubs, because if they’re not doing chores, it doesn’t just mean they were busy, it means they don’t value the family in the same way that I do. Because it’s equating two things that aren’t necessarily equal. And so, if the thing is we need to get all the chores done around the house, that’s one conversation. If it’s, I like to feel connected as a family, that’s an entirely different conversation where we could figure out other ways to feel connected to each other that don’t have to be we’re all working together to clean the house.

Because obviously people are going to have different opinions about what feels good. And so, yeah it was just super interesting and fun to unpack some of these beliefs for ourselves.

PAM: Yeah exactly. And I think what you mentioned there, Erika, too, is it just bubbled up for me how often as well that whole productivity conversation comes up. Because, oh if I can make this thing mean this and this and this that’s effective and efficient and like we bundle it all together and hand it to somebody else. But they don’t know all these nuanced meanings and all the little tick boxes that we’re checking off in our head that this means and they’re just like maybe doing the thing.

ERIKA: Like for a family dinner, I could totally picture that, where someone in the family is like, well I’m not hungry, so I don’t want to eat right now. But then it’s like, no but to me, it’s everything. This is our only moment of connection and it’s so important and deep. And so, yeah a lot more conversations and peeling apart the parts that you’re wanting.

ANNA: Right! Because, in that situation, are we even communicating that? So, we have it in our head that the family dinner means we’re all valuing each other and finding out about each other’s day, but have we said that? Or are we just saying, come to dinner? Because again, that child who’s not hungry may be like, oh but if you want to hear about my day or I could hear about your day, that might be fine. But it’s interesting to think about how much we do in our head with these ideas and how much we’re putting on it, which maybe we aren’t even communicating. And that’s why those conversations can be so helpful to figure out what are the priorities for each person. And how do we make sure we meet those in a way that feels good to everybody?

ERIKA: Well, this one has been a lot of fun! We hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. If you enjoy these kinds of conversations I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting, having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives and you can learn more at livingjoyfullyshop.com. Just click on community at the top of the page and we hope to meet you there.And you can also check out our new Substack at whenschoolisntworking.substack.com. Thank you for listening and we’ll see you next time.

ANNA AND PAM: Bye!

In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with Iris Chen in 2018. At the time, Iris was new to unschooling her two sons in China and was writing blog posts about her experience at her website, Untigering. Pam and Iris talked about why she and her husband decided to move to China, her family’s move to unschooling, what unschooling in China looks like, deschooling expectations around achievement, feeling like an outsider in both Chinese and American societies, and lots more!

We hope you enjoy the conversation!

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

I love how you describe your blog, untigering.com, on your about page: “Untigering is a blog about my adventures of trying to be parent in the tension of my Chineseness and Americanness. It’s about me moving away from being a typical tiger mom, but still wanting to hold on to my cultural heritage. It’s about figuring out what I believe about identity, family, and success as an outsider to both societies.” Let’s start with your shifting definition of success. You and your husband were well on your way to fulfilling the “American Dream” when you guys did a complete 180. How did that come about?

And then you had children. How did you discover unschooling and what did your family’s move to unschooling look like?

I’m really curious about unschooling in China. Can you share a bit about your experience and the pros and cons you see?

You have a great blog post about the value of letting go of expectations, especially ones around achievement. When a child dives into an interest it’s so easy for us to start envisioning that as their lifelong passion and career, like we need to rationalize to ourselves that it’s okay to let them have at it. Maybe we try to convince ourselves we’re just being supportive, but it can quickly backfire, can’t it?

I’d love to talk some more about your experience with the tension of feeling like an outsider in both Chinese and American societies. Can you share your thoughts around the process of weaving together your cultural heritage with what you’re discovering makes sense to you about children, learning, parenting, and family? What does that look like for you?

You recently published a blog post titled, ‘Unschooling as an Asian American is an Act of Resistance.’ I thought it was a great piece and was hoping you’d share your thoughts about it here.

What is your favourite thing about unschooling right now?

Iris’s blog, untigering.com

Scott Noelle’s podcast episode

The Alliance for Self-Directed Education

Peter Gray’s article, Kids Learn Math Easily When They Control Their Own Learning

Iris’s blog post, Pros and Cons of Unschooling in China

Iris’s blog post, 3 Unschooling Expectations and Why We Shouldn’t Have Them

Idzie Desmarais’s blog post, In Praise of The Unexceptional: Because Unschooling Doesn’t Have to Be Impressive

Iris recently went to see the play Soft Power

Iris’s blog post, Unschooling as an Asian American is an Act of Resistance

Iris’s Facebook page, Untigering: Adventures of a deconstructing Tiger Mother

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

PAM: Welcome! I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca, and today I’m here with Iris Chen. Hi Iris!

IRIS: Hello Pam.

PAM: Hello! Iris is an unschooling mom and I came across her work a few months ago. I really enjoyed reading around her website, untigering.com, and I was super excited when she agreed to come on the podcast!

So, to get us started Iris …

IRIS: Sure! So, I am a Chinese American, and I was born in the States and grew up in the States and Canada actually. After I got married, we moved out to China to teach English, and then we had two boys out there in China.

And I’ve only been unschooling for about a year but have really just fallen in love with it.

PAM: Oh, that’s awesome, yeah, and it’s doesn’t take too long once you start diving in, does it? If it’s for you, if it’s a good match, it just sucks you right in, right?

IRIS: Yes, yes.

PAM: So, I love how you describe your blog, untigering.com, in your about page and I just wanted to read a little quote from it.

“Untigering is about my adventures of me trying to be an parent in the tension of my Chineseness and Americanness. It’s about me wanting to move away from being a tiger mom, but still wanting to hold on to my cultural heritage. It’s about figuring out what I believe about identity, family and success, as an outsider to both societies.”

And look! I got goosebumps again just as I was reading it.

IRIS: Yeah!

So, we lived in the Silicon Valley. It’s a very driven, very ambitious culture here, and, at that time, my husband had been working for five years as an electrical engineer, and was doing well, and we were living a very comfortable, good life.

But I think we just wanted something different; we wanted something meaningful. We wanted to be of service somewhere. And we wanted a sense of adventure too, something different. And so, we went to China just planning on teaching English for just a year—we didn’t expect on staying out for very long.

We were going to give it a year and have a good time with it. But once we got out there, we just fell in love with it—fell in love with the people and the culture. I mean we are both Chinese, but yeah, just really falling in love with the people and the culture there. And ended up staying for the next 15 years and have been there ever since!

PAM: Was the biggest piece when you were talking about wanting to feel like you were doing service kinds of work, helping people—that was something you felt was missing? Was that a big chunk of it?

IRIS: Yeah.

I think sometimes when you stay in your own culture, you are stuck in these scripts or these tracks that ‘everybody around you is doing this,’ ‘everybody else is buying their house and having children,’ or whatever. And I think we just wanted to be intentional about the choices we made—we didn’t want to just do what everybody else was doing. But we also wanted to make intentional choices about what we wanted to do with our lives.

PAM: That’s cool! So, it was noticing that you on this track, I guess, the definition of success for people, right? And you guys were rocking that.

IRIS: Yeah, yeah, we were doing well…

PAM: And it became time to question it. Is that how?

IRIS: Yeah, Definitely. And not to say that that is wrong, but are we being intentional and mindful about that choice. For us, we just felt like that wasn’t our path, that wasn’t our calling. We wanted something different for our lives.

PAM: I love that point too, because, just because it’s conventional doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, right? Like, you said, just knowing which path is feeling good for you and is working for you, right?

IRIS: Right, exactly! I feel that follows really closely with unschooling too. It’s not that you can’t have a conventional education, or you can’t go to college. It’s not about that. It’s about doing it intentionally and because it’s meaningful and purposeful for you. Don’t because it’s just with you do.

PAM: I love that word, purposeful, because that shows the intention behind it, right? Because unschooling lives can run the gamut for young adults. And some, when you’re looking from the outside, can look very conventional, and some can look very unconventional, but they are all, either way, lived with intention and purpose. I love that.

IRIS: Yes yes yes.

PAM: I love that.

IRIS: Yeah. I had this blog called untigering, because I think I was a typical tiger mom. Like, I had very high standards for what I wanted my kids to do and to study. It was my full intention to send them—well, at first we were considering conventional homeschooling, and then we were thinking about sending them to local, Chinese school, because we were living in China. We thought that if we send them to local school, they will be fluent; they will be bilingual in both Chinese and English, and that was sort of like a high priority for me, so we were really trying to get them into a local school.

But that didn’t really work out because they didn’t have enough space for foreigners, so we went another option where we went to like a local, private Chinese school. And I think we had a good experience there, but after a few years there, I felt that there was a lot about the schooling mindset that I didn’t agree with—that didn’t resonate with me. Because I had sort of part-time homeschooled them when they were younger, I felt that there was just a lot of wasted time, a lot of busy work. A lot of it was meaningless, that you just felt like you had to do as part of school.

And I was also teaching there at that school, and I was sucked into those types of patterns too, even though I didn’t believe in them, like giving homework just to give homework, or seeing what the results of grades like a mark did. They just cared about looking at the grade, they didn’t care about whether or not they understood the material. Or, even seeing my kids. They did really well in that environment, but then noticing that they were doing things more for the affirmation of the teacher; like, they were trying to get recognition and saying, “Look! Look at this!” And comparisons and stuff like that.

So, I was noticing, even though they were doing well, attitudes that were inadvertently passed on to them because of this environment. I had not really been exposed to unschooling, but I listened to a parenting conference and one of the speakers was Scott Noelle who is part of the Alliance for Self-Directed Education, I think, and he wasn’t really talking about unschooling, but at the end of his talk, he referenced it.

Then I went to the website and read what self-directed education was about. I just really resonated with it and felt like, “Oh, this is something that I really believe in; or I want to believe in.” It was a very radical way—at least for me—of looking at education and sort of letting go of the reins. But there was something very appealing for me, especially since, at the time, I had to think of other options, because the school that I was sending my kids to was shutting down.

Pretty much my only option was to homeschool, and yet I was really stressed by that idea because I knew that if I took a schooling mindset and applied it to homeschooling, that would just create so much stress in my family life and for my kids because I’d just be this really controlling mom trying to get them to do their work. And I didn’t want to do that!

And so, once I discovered unschooling, yeah, I think I just really resonated with it, and was excited about what that meant for my relationship with my kids and a way that we could homeschool that would just work for us.

PAM: That’s cool! Yeah!

You were mentioning that you were teaching at the school and you were doing all the things that were expected. You mentioned, giving homework, paying attention to grades, and using that as a measure etc. And it’s so interesting to see that, and you were doing it because you had to in that situation, and then imagining having to do that at home, because it wasn’t something that you really believed in. Is that kind of how it felt, like you would have to bring that home?

IRIS: Yeah, definitely. And actually, in the school environment, I felt frustrated, because I was behaving in ways that I didn’t believe in either. Like, maybe I was just putting on that teacher hat and feeling like I had to be very authoritarian in some ways, like, “sit in your seat, pay attention, follow along,” you know…

PAM: Yeah, you were playing that role rather than being yourself.

IRIS: Yeah. Right. Like, interacting with them in the way that I would if they were just my kids or we were just home together. So, just the role of being a teacher and being in that role meant something to me, where I needed to be the one imparting information and they needed to absorb it or whatever, so…

PAM: And I guess it might be a little bit easier trying to do that within the institution because all the teachers are doing it, whereas at home, ‘Oh now it will just be me trying to play that role.’ That could be a lot harder!

IRIS: I don’t think my kids would like it, would respond well to it either, me always wearing the teacher hat.

PAM: Yeah, that’s such a good point too. So, did the school close? Did you guys finish out they year there, and then the school closed, and then you kind of transitioned into it at home?

IRIS: Yes. So, the school closed and we transitioned to what we were doing at home. A lot of the kids—it was a private, local school, and so all of the kids are pretty much local Chinese kids—they went back to their different situations, like, to a local school, or a private school, or to other options. But yeah, for us, we ended up homeschooling.

PAM: Did you pretty much end up unschooling at home from the beginning?

IRIS: At that point, yeah. It was sort of like we had our summer off and then we started.

At the beginning, I was like, “There’s a few things that we are going to do,” so, I wasn’t in total “jump in the deep end.” We were still in the process of deschooling. So, I was like, “We still gotta do math.” You know, “We’re Asians, we do math!” At that point, I was not yet ready to let go of that and felt like that needed to be taught. And then we did other things like Chinese class and piano class, but other than that, I was really able to sort of let the rest of it go.

I would read to them—sometimes I would pick a book or they would pick a book and I would read aloud to them. But the rest of the day was pretty open and they could do what they wanted to do. But I think after a few weeks into it, because of my changing views and my philosophy of unschooling, making them do math didn’t make sense to me anymore. Because, if I truly believe that kids can learn through life and learn naturally in ways that are meaningful for them, then why was I making them sit and fill out these worksheets that didn’t have meaning for them?

And I also read, I think it was a Peter Gray article about learning math, and how kids in the future if they want to go into a field that requires math, that they can actually learn it really quickly, because they already have the skills to know how to learn. So, they don’t have to spend their entire childhood spending hours and hours doing workbooks and learning math, they can just go on and learn it really quickly if they want to. And so, I think hearing those things and wrestling with it a little more allowed me to let go of the math. So yeah, I no longer require them do math. That was part of my deschooling process.

PAM: Oh absolutely. I think whatever “the thing” is for us—whether it’s math, or maybe it’s reading, or spelling. That was something that I held onto for a little while, just for the first couple of weeks. Because, whatever that one thing is, then we see them all the rest of the time, and see how much they are learning, and we see them in action. And we’re continuing to learn and read ourselves. So, I think that’s a pretty normal transition time, because there’s always that one last thing that it’s hard for us to let go of. But as we keep going just a few weeks, it starts to gel together and we can kind of release that last big thing, right?

IRIS: Yeah. Absolutely.

The other two things that I was holding onto was Chinese—Chinese language lessons—and piano. And we live in China, so it sort of made sense. And with piano, that is something that they had wanted to do when they were younger, but it’s been four years and we were still having them do it, and sometimes there was a lot of tension around piano practice and stuff like that. So, it wasn’t until more recently, maybe a couple of months ago, where we actually again had to question why we were continuing those activities and whether or not those activities were things that our kids wanted to do.

So, we put them before them and asked, “Do you want to continue? These are the reasons that we think, from our perspective, but what do you guys think?” And it was interesting, because they didn’t really want to continue with the Chinese lessons, but they did want to continue with the piano. That was actually really affirming to us in a way, because we had thought that maybe if we didn’t force them to do it that they wouldn’t do either. But to know that once they had the option to consider for themselves and really tap into their own desires, that they realized that, “I do really want to continue with the piano.” So, now as we move forward, at least with the piano, they can continue with enjoyment, and not feeling like it’s not mom and dad making me do it, but that they are in control.

PAM: That’s a really great point. It is so interesting to see them, executing their agency, I guess, in making choices. And it’s nice to know that you get to that point in the relationship—it might have been a few months till you guys felt like you could ask that question and get a real answer from them; because at first, it could be very reactionary. Like you said, we figured at first it could be like “No I don’t want to do anything because you were making me do that.” But to actually take the time to think about it and to make a choice for what really works for them, right?

IRIS: Right, that’s a really good point.

I think sometimes they might react because we have been so controlling and we’ve robbed them of that agency for so long, so, once they have agency they’re like, “Ok, well, I’m just going to rebel, or I’m just going to do my own thing and not do what I know you want me to do.”

But yeah, I think that can be a process too, allowing them to do that until they get to the point where there is that trust and they are like, “Oh, mom and dad honor my choices, and maybe some of what I want to do is what mom and dad want me to do, and that’s okay.”

PAM: Yeah, that’s such a huge process—I call it deschooling for us—but also for the kids too because it’s building that relationship and that trust back in, right? Because if they say no to everything that’s ok too. And when you ask, it’s about being ok with the no. And none of these noes are forever. They can always, like you said, later on, say, “Hey, you know what, I think maybe I do want to pick that back up.”

But now they’ve gotten to a point in the relationship that they know they are making that choice for themselves, not to please you, and you know that too.

IRIS: So, that was something that both my husband and I had to be ok with, it like, “Ok, if they say no to both of these things, we have to be ok with this, rather than trying to manipulate them to choose something.” Being ok with the no.

I think with unschooling we are always hoping that they will say yes to something, that they will grab onto something that they really love, but I think that for kids who haven’t been given a lot of freedom, I think the first choice is to say no, and they have to have the freedom to do that.

PAM: That finally helps them to feel powerful when they haven’t felt like they’ve had a lot of power.

IRIS: Yeah, I actually wrote a blog post about this, and I would be interested to know if there are any other unschoolers in China. I have no idea.

But I think one of the really challenging things is the easy access to information because we have a firewall. It’s really hard to get information online, and I feel like probably for a lot of unschoolers, a lot of the information they get is online. So, that is sometimes really challenging for us. We can’t get on YouTube or Twitter or Instagram or Facebook without a VPN—a virtual private network. Sometimes the Internet makes it hard to get all those things. I think that is a challenge.

I think another thing is just the cultural values is just very high on academics. It’s definitely the whole society is very focused on children doing well in school—getting the good grades, doing well on the tests. We are in an environment that really pushes those types of values. So, we’re pretty weird to them. So that’s also, I guess, another challenge.

And I think there’s also the lack of affordable resources. Whereas here I feel like there’s the library, the community center, there’s the free days at the museum, there’s nature, there’s a lot to work with, and there’s also a community—a pretty strong unschooling or homeschooling community.

I think in China there aren’t a lot of free resources, because most families only have one child and they are willing to pay a lot of money for their child to do cool stuff. And so, a lot of things cost a lot of money, so in that way there aren’t a lot of affordable resources, in my opinion. We do have a homeschooling community, which I’m very, very thankful for, but not necessarily unschooling, so not very many people with the same perspective on schooling.

So those are some of the cons, but those can also be pros too, in my mind. Just the fact that because they culture emphasizes so strongly on academics, people actually see the detrimental parts of that. They see how the system is really broken and they don’t want that for their kids, but their choices are limited and it’s pretty risky for them to try other things. So, in some ways they see a more extreme example of the negative things we see in schooling in the west. They know something needs to change, or something isn’t right here. They can understand the value of more choice, more freedom, more agency. Like, when I tell my friends about it, it’s something that sounds really amazing, but it’s too outside of the box for them at this point.

And I think also the bicultural aspect of living oversees is something that’s built-in for us. This sense of learning from another culture, learning a different language, eating different types of foods. Sort of like the worldschooling thing, right? We are learning from life and our perspective isn’t just based on our own experience or our own culture—you’re exposed to different people and different cultures. So that’s a big one too.

PAM: That’s really interesting. Especially the part that academics are such a big focus, and there’s so much pressure on the kids, they really see the negative effects. And yes, I can see that yeah, it’s totally too out of the box to step away from it, but I can imagine them wanting to figure out ways to support their kids, while still putting the pressure on? You know what I mean? It seems it’s quite a dichotomy, but I can see how, “This is what we have to do, this kind of pressure, but I’m going to help you to live with it, because this is just the way it has to be,” right?

IRIS: Yeah, there’s definitely that attitude, it’s like, “Well, this is the way it is. How can I help and support you? And I know it’s really stressful and unfair, but this is the way it is.”

So, I feel that I recognize that I have a lot of privilege in this in terms of the choices that I have as a foreigner living in America, and, even if I was in America, I’m very thankful for the privilege to not have to send my kids to school. So, I really try to not try to push unschooling upon my Chinese friends, because I know that that’s an unfair standard for them, I guess. All I know is that I believe in it, and I’m going for it, and I will support you in whatever choices that you make because I know that you are doing what’s best for your child too.

PAM: Exactly, because everybody’s choices to make right? And they see you living it. You don’t have to convince them or change their minds or anything. Just by seeing you living it they know it’s an option. I can’t imagine trying to put pressure on that or trying to convince them. That won’t help at all, will it?

IRISI: I have talked to some local moms who have chosen alternative ways of doing education and I’m so proud of them. I mean, it’s a really big risk and a really big jump for them. So, I do want to support them as much as I can and to help them to think about education in a different way so that it’s not so scary for them, because it is really scary for them to make choices like that.

PAM: And I mean, that’s the thing about living out in the world as you do—people know you’re there when they have questions or are even just curious. Not even that they are planning a move in the near future, but just curious to learn a little bit more and ask questions. That’s awesome that you’re speaking with them and sharing your experience. That’s awesome. And so, how often do you guys visit in the States then?

IRIS: We come back every summer. I’m not sure how my kids feel. I mean, we grew up in the States, so we are very comfortable in both cultures. I wonder how my kids feel about it? But they love visiting the States and seeing family and everything. We come back every summer for about two months.

PAM: That’s awesome. I will definitely share a link to that blog post.

IRIS: Yes. I think sometimes that our version of support is actually in the guise of support, but we are actually coming in with our own exceptions, like “Oh, they are going to be amazing at this!” Or, “They are going to go to the Olympics!” Or, “They are going to win an amazing prize!” But we’re actually coming in with our own expectations, and in a lot of ways it’s still about achievement and outside affirmation rather than about the joy and the process of learning something new.

So, maybe part of the appeal of unschooling for me in the beginning was like, ‘Oh, these kids are doing amazing things and they are following their passions, but I think I just read this headline by Idzie Desmarais who writes “I’m Unschooled…” What does she write?

PAM: I’m Unschooled. Yes, I Can Write.

IRIS: Yes, I can write. Yes! And it’s like, sometimes our kids are unexceptional, and why do we have this pressure that we put on our kids to be exceptional and to be a genius at a young age? I mean, some are, and that’s great, but how just to accept our kids where they’re at and just to be fellow sojourners with them in the process of their learning.

I think something that I’m not actually good at right now is actually empowering them and giving them the resources. Sometimes I’m just like, “Oh, just use the free app and see how much you get out of it.” But I don’t know if that’s bad either, because if they really are into it, then they will let me know, and then I will hopefully get them the resources. Maybe in the meantime they can just dabble and that’s ok too.

PAM: Yeah, I think that’s a great point, and I kinda think of it as a dance. I often call it the dance of parenting, because it’s like, you don’t want to overpower them with stuff, and step on their toes and kind of take over like you’re directing, like you’re leading—like in dance terms. But you also want to react to their lead, right? As long as you are reasonably comfortable that in the relationship, if they want more, they’ll say something.

And for us, that’s part of making sure we’re connected, staying connected. Asking them, “How’s that free app going? Did you finish all the stuff that was available there? Did you want a little bit more?” Not always expecting them to come to you. So, again, it’s the dance, right?

You don’t expect them to come, but you don’t want to push too hard, so that they feel like you’re controlling or like you’ve got some kind of expectation hiding in there. So yeah, it’s just the push and pull, back and forth. It’s living together.

IRIS: So, I think that’s something that I really had to learn to step back and hold my tongue and really not try to strew too hard. Like, we go to the library and there’s all these books that I think they might be interested in, and I like ask them, “Do you want to read this?” And they slip through and they are like, “Nope.” And I have to be ok with that! Maybe in the past I would have been like, “Well, I’m going to borrow it anyways and read it to you.” And I’m just backing off and saying. “It’s ok, you’re reading a lot of other stuff.”

My boys are really into coding and gaming and stuff, and so, we are back in the States and I know some people at gaming companies, people who are coders and stuff like that. And so, I asked them, do you want me to ask if you can visit this gaming company or whatever. And I thought this would be really fun for them and they are like, “Ehhhh.” So, there are ways that I’m trying to open doors for them and help them improve or whatever, but they are just not there yet, and so I have to be ok with that.

PAM: I love that example because I had that so many times over the years. Because, they are at a place, and you can kind of see next steps, a few steps down, but I came to realize that that’s a few steps down the path that I envision, right?

So, we are all surprised when I say, ‘I have this way to contact this person, that’s a few steps down. Would you like to go hang out with them, meet them,’ whatever, and they are like, ‘no thanks.’ Because we have no idea what path is their’s, and even if they’re ready to take a next step—maybe they are completely comfortable where they are.

It’s a lot of our work, isn’t it? Thinking that through, figuring that out, realizing that not all of these plans, all these possibilities that we are envisioning for them around the spot that they are in, may be completely different from what they are, right?

IRIS: And my kids are like eight and ten. So, I have to realize that they are still young and there’s no need to box them in yet. See, the tiger mom in me. See, I still need to do that, to untiger.

PAM: Well yeah, because they have this time, if they have the interest, they could be rocking it a few years from now, right? But but but…

IRIS: Exactly. I realize a lot of it is about my own aspirations, my own projections for them, so I need to let that go…

PAM: Because it’s our envisioning their achievement at a young age. So again, it’s our thinking, our conventional definition of success. And it can sneak up on us in so many different ways, can’t it?

IRIS: Yep yep.

PAM: Um, let’s see. Yes!

IRIS: Sure. Yeah, It’s a really big question, and I’m still in process. I just went to watch this play last night called Soft Power, and it’s like a, they call it a Chinese musical about America, so it’s written by an Asian American, but it’s sort of like a Chinese view of what America is like.

And there are some scenes in it where, it’s like, as an Asian American in America, I’m never American enough, I’m not western enough, I’m not white enough. And in China, I’m not Chinese enough—like, my Chinese isn’t good enough, my ways of communicating aren’t Chinese enough. And so, in both culture, we are outsiders, or there’s feelings of not being enough, not belonging or whatever.

But I think there is also value in that, in that we can sort of step back and be observers of both cultures, so that we can sort of critique both cultures but also celebrate both cultures so that I don’t have to feel defensive about America. If there’s like something about America that’s gone terribly wrong, I don’t have to say, “Oh, I’m an American. I need to defend it.” or I don’t need to be patriotic or defend it. And same with Chinese culture. If something says something bad about Chinese culture, I can also accept it or deconstruct it or whatever because I’m a little bit of an outsider.

And so, I’m finding that being in this position as an Asian American, I can be a lot more intentional about the things from different cultures that I am incorporating into my family life and into my parenting, so, it doesn’t have to be fully western, or and it doesn’t have to be fully Chinese. Like, nowadays we are more of a global society, and I think if we had the humility to learn from each other, that there are ways that we can learn from different cultures.

I’m just reading all these articles about the Mayan culture in Mexico, and how their children are very different from American children, and how can we learn from that culture, and just how the blessing of being bicultural is that we can be a lot more intentional about the things that we take from each culture.

For example, Chinese culture, the values that we have, the focus on family is very strong, and respect and responsibility and just working hard, and these are things that I associate with Chinese culture. And those are good values, I believe in those values, but I think the how—the way we get to that—is also important, and so maybe the how is a more western approach, because the Chinese way of getting to these values is often through patriarchy, through authoritarianism, through shame.

Those are maybe the ways that sort of get embedded into the culture in a lot of ways, and now that I can see that that’s not how I want to get to those values, I can find other ways to get to those values that are more respectful and provide more agency and freedom. Those are still values that I want to honor and instill in my family, but it’s just a matter of how we get there.

PAM: Yeah, I loved that. I loved the realization that you can still get to the same place, but a different way, with a different path. It’s not, ‘If you don’t use these authoritarian shame control tools, you’ll never get there.’ Like, that’s the message that they use to continue parenting and just structuring society these ways. But to realize that you can still get there but in different way, that’s eye opening, right?

IRIS: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

I think—and I’m just speaking for myself as an Asian American—we don’t have a lot of models or examples that we have seen of a family dynamic that operates like that. I think that, at least for me, I’m feeling my way through.

Like, we have the typical white, western family, but in my experience, Asian families, the way we interact, the dynamics are a little bit different. Just feeling our way through so that we can uphold our Asian values and the things that we love about our Asian culture, while doing it in a respectful and honoring way. That seems very un-Asian in some ways.

PAM: I’m really curious. You were talking about being bicultural and the advantage in that you could choose what resonated with you from both cultures. So, it became more about, you’re already open to choices, it sounds like, right? Did that kind of help when you discovered unschooling, which is focused on choices? Did that help a bit that you were already picking and choosing things that were working for you, that this was just kind of another thing that you were going to pick?

IRIS: I think so! I think that living overseas made our lifestyle, very intentional. Because we didn’t totally fit into that culture, and we weren’t going to just bring American culture over there either, right? So, it was definitely we made very intentional choices about how we were going to live, and the aspects of American culture that we wanted to bring over that were important to us, but ways that we wanted to incorporate the culture around us too. And so I think that did give us the freedom to be more intentional and purposeful—those words keep coming up!—about the choices we made with schooling.

So, maybe if we had lived here in the States we wouldn’t have had to question it was much, because that’s just the way everyone does it, but because we had to be really intentional about that as we lived overseas. In some ways it opens the doors for us for a lot more options in some ways, because we aren’t stuck in a certain track.

PAM: I can’t remember, I’m going to butcher the quote completely, but you know “once your mind opens to a new idea, right? Or grows from a new idea, it can never go back.” Like, once you see one choice and you make a little bit different choice, all of a sudden you see more of them everywhere.

IRIS: Yeah.

PAM: Well, that’s beautiful.

IRIS: That blog post was about how, as a Chinese American specifically, it adds a different layer to my decision to unschool, and I think that’s true for a lot of people of color. It’s not solely about educational choice, that there is a component of resisting racism in it. So, part of it for me was about resisting.

There are three thing I was resisting, and the first one was resisting cultural pressures, and I talked about this already a little bit, about Chinese culture in particular emphasizes a lot on academics, like, the test-based system pretty much originated in China. So, really rejecting that view of what education looks like, so from the Asian side, resisting those cultural pressures of having high academics or going to an Ivy League school or having a certain type of career. So, I’m resisting those pressures on that side, which as a culture and maybe my extended family, they are like “What are you doing? That’s very strange what you’re doing!”

And I think also as a second generation immigrant, where a lot of our families have moved to the west to provide more opportunities, to provide these educational opportunities, and then if you don’t take them, they feel like, “Why? What did we sacrifice all that for?” So, there’s a lot of pressure on that side of it.

I think there is also the resistance of Asian stereotypes. Where maybe there’s views of like the stereotypical Asian nerd, or you see Jeremy Lin, who’s a Chinese American basketball player. He has faced a lot of racism because people just don’t see him as athletic. People just don’t see Asians as athletic, or attractive, or as outspoken, or as a leader. So, there are these ways that society stereotypes Asians as not having these opportunities, especially in a schooling environment.

So, there’s ways that we can achieve. Like, if we were on the academic route and we’re smart and that follows the stereotype so people can accept that, but if you don’t want to follow that stereotype, like if you aren’t super academic but you really enjoy dance, or you want to be a football player or whatever it is, there are stereotypes that prevent you from achieving those things in that environment.

I feel that unschooling is a way outside of that. That we can provide different opportunities that hopefully can resist some of those stereotypes and not have kids boxed into being a certain type of Asian. So, there’s that.

And then I think the last one was the curriculum, and the very white-centric, very patriotic, American, information that is given in most western schooling environments is very western-centric. And I think that we are realizing more and more that the story we are telling each other isn’t the whole truth, and that there are many different perspectives out there on the history. So, not only stories about our country or about the world that are very euro-centric, but pretty much all of curriculum is. Or even sports—most schools don’t necessarily have Asian sports like badminton, but they will have basketball or golf, things that are more associated with western things. Or the music that is played in band, or just a lot of different things that are just typical, white-centric instead of a more global, multicultural, view of the world. And so, unschooling can allow us to expose them to whatever resonates with them, and it doesn’t have to be just that one canon that we are used to.

PAM: Yeah, that’s so narrow, isn’t it? The curriculum, just in general. And yeah, you don’t really realize it because, if you’re on that path, you just absorb it because that is what we are supposed to do. Somebody has said, “This is what we cover,” and somebody has said “This is the angle of the story that we are going to cover.”

I loved the idea of it’s also being a resistance to all that—conventional isn’t even the right word, stereotypical probably is, for lack of a better word—white culture that’s there, and all of the other stories are ignored. And I love that idea of it also being a big act of resistance of that main cultural story.

That the world is so much bigger, so much wider. And that we can bring that world to the kids. But also, just standing up and choosing that it’s important to us. It’s our choice too for our families. That this is an important way that we want to be in the world and that we want to share with our children. Does that makes sense?

IRIS: Yeah, definitely. And where they can be sort of the protagonist of their own stories, whereas like, if we grow up in the typical American schooling system, we are never the protagonist of our own story system, we are never the protagonist in our own stories. The stories that we read, there are very few, there are more and more, but very few books that are required reading at that age, that tell stories about Asian Americans or Asians.

PAM: I love that point too, and I’ll share a link to that too.

IRIS: There are so many things, but I really think it’s not so much just about schooling, but it’s really a whole lifestyle sometimes, so I just really love how it gives me so many opportunities to connect with my children, and just the relationship that we have with one another and the growing respect we have for one another. And just enjoying each other.

Whereas, it’s not about herding my kids through the day, getting them to one class or that class, it’s really about just enjoying life together. It’s a really slow pace that allows us the opportunity to just connect and enjoy one another. So, I’m really thankful for that.

PAM: Oh, I love that. And you don’t realize how fast that pace is until you step away, do you think? I found that I appreciated that slowness and that ability to be in relationship and be in the moment with them way more than I even expected.

IRIS: Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s sort of my personality too, I’m more of a homebody I like things to be slower. I get overwhelmed with too many things. But, yeah, just really enjoying that opportunity to build relationship with them.

PAM: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me Iris. I’m so glad you said yes. I had so much fun!

IRIS: I had a lot of fun too. Thank you for asking me Pam.

PAM: Before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

IRIS: My blog is untigering.com and I also have a facebook page that’s Untigering. I also started a facebook group for parents who are or have been tiger parents, and that’s called Untigering Parents, and then on twitter I am @untigeringmom.

PAM: Excellent. I will put all those links in the show notes for people too. And thanks so much. Have a great day. Say hi to everyone. You guys are in the States now, right?

IRIS: Yes, we are.

PAM: Yay. Thank you! Bye!

IRIS: Ok, bye!

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Boundaries, Comfort Zones, and Capacity.

The idea of boundaries comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging people to set boundaries with their kids, their partners, their parents, and so forth, and to stay strong in defending them. But in this episode, we’re digging into the language of boundaries and exploring some alternative ways of communicating our needs and learning about the important people in our lives.

We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

Want the full collection of Living Joyfully Foundations podcast episodes as an audiobook (and the transcripts edited into an ebook)? Find them here in the Shop!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully podcast. We are happy you’re interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

And in today’s episode, we are going to talk about boundaries, comfort zones, and capacity. And it may end up being a bit longer than usual, but we are really excited to have this conversation. There are some big paradigm shifts around these ideas that can really have a positive impact on your relationships.

Now, our focus with this podcast is on cultivating connected, trusting, and respectful relationships with our partner, with our children, with anyone we choose to have that level of a relationship with. And we soon discover that that means deeply understanding ourselves so that we can more gracefully navigate the edges where we engage with others. So, that’s really the foundation of this conversation.

And to start with, let’s dive into the idea of boundaries, because it comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging individuals to set strong boundaries with their partners, for their parents, to set boundaries with their kids, and just to stay strong in defending them.

And the motivation behind that idea makes a lot of sense. It’s to encourage us to not be manipulated into doing things that we don’t want to do. That makes a lot of sense. But the solution proposed of setting and defending boundaries can often create challenges and disconnection in our relationship. Can’t it?

ANNA: Yes! I just don’t find the boundary language particularly helpful. So, the energy of it feels very final and it has this feeling of drawing a line in the sand and, “I’m going to defend that line to the death,” and also that somehow, I’m letting myself down if I don’t uphold it, which is just this double whammy coming at us.

PAM: Exactly.

ANNA: So, the alternative I found is to look at the moment in front of me, to be honest about where I am, what I can do in that moment, because it changes. There are things we can’t anticipate about the situations we’re faced with.

And I think, especially with my loved ones, I want to have an energy of curiosity and connection. Standing on the other side of an intensely drawn boundary just doesn’t have the same feel to me. And this could be a language thing. I’m definitely a word person and I tend to respond energetically to words. So, I look to my language to help me cultivate the energy I want to bring and the person I want to be in a situation. That’s why these words are important to me and why I really love teasing apart these nuances.

PAM: Yes, yes. I find it very helpful to consider my language, as well, including the language I use when thinking or talking to myself. When I use the word “boundaries,” does it mean a hard stop to me? When I envision someone approaching it and approaching me, am I looking at the line or am I looking at the person?

Because what a pre-drawn line doesn’t do is consider the context of the moment. Am I feeling resourced and centered? Are they? How’s our day been going? What does their request look like through their eyes? What does it look like through my eyes? What constraints may be at play? Can we get curious together about ways to navigate it this time?

Because I think one of the things we worry about is, if I do it this time, I’ll have to do it every time. “There’s that boundary. I moved that boundary and now it’s forever there.” But that is not true. We are not giving tacit permission forever more. We’re chatting with them about this particular moment and that is how we learn more about each other.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And keeping in mind that context keeps it from feeling arbitrary to the other person involved as well. We’re reacting together to the context of the situation, and that’s where the learning’s happening.

And I do think boundaries can have a place when we’re faced with toxic relationships. This can be friends or even family from our family of origin. When a relationship is harming us, when we find ourselves tied in knots thinking about it, when we see it impacting our mental health or happiness, boundaries can be a helpful step to distance ourselves enough to see the situation more clearly. Even that doesn’t have to be a forever step, but it can be a self-preservation step to gain perspective and to decide if this relationship is one that will work for us going forward.

But if we’re choosing to spend our life with someone, I truly believe that boundary language just tends to shut down communication. It doesn’t leave room for finding solutions that feel good to both parties. And I think it’s important to realize that this is not about not expressing or meeting our needs, but when we do it in relationship, it looks so different.

If we want to have a consensual relationship where the parties involved are heard and seen and we find agreeable solutions, standing behind a hard boundary can get in the way of that. And I’ve found that I can honor who I am and still be open and curious to finding solutions that feel good to everyone involved.

PAM: Yes! I think that is such an important distinction. We’re talking about relationships with the people in our lives with whom we want to cultivate strong, connected, and trusting relationships.

So, when it comes to extended family or people at work, a boundary can be a useful tool to quickly communicate our needs to someone. But with those we want a closer and more intimate relationship with, a boundary can get in the way of that. We tend to pull that out instead of having a conversation.

But it’s in those conversations where we come to better understand each other, where we cultivate connections, where we build trust. That space is where relationships flourish.

ANNA: Yes. And so, another thing that I’ve noticed, I call the pendulum. For much of our early life, we’re basically subject to others in a variety of different ways. We’re told what to do, how to do it, often subjugating our needs and preferences. And somewhere along the line, often in our thirties and forties, we have this awakening and we realize, “Wait a minute! My needs are important here, too!”

And so, you can go into this intense period of advocating for your needs. And I think this is when the strong boundary language that we hear around really resonates with people. “Yes! This feels awesome!” But I’ve also seen that as we get a bit older that things soften and we realize that we don’t have to defend our needs to the death, that we can honor ourselves and honor another, and that solutions are really there to be found.

And I want to say very clearly that there’s no right and wrong about this. There’s no timeline about any of it. It’s just an interesting pattern and I think it can help to be aware of it and maybe watch for it. Are we swinging way over here? Do we want to come back maybe more towards the center? See how it’s feeling as we play with unpacking any baggage we have in this area.

And I think pretty much all of us have some baggage in this area.

PAM: Yeah, no, I do love the metaphor or the image of the pendulum, and absolutely it can be a valuable part of our journey, a helpful part, to swing right up to the very edge, because then we’re gaining experience with what that feels like, and we notice the pieces that aren’t working.

And when we understand those kinds of patterns, it can be helpful for us, too, to help us recognize where we might be on the journey and use that information to help us just decide where we want to go next.

But I do love that idea of the patterns and just paying attention, because, for me, I enjoy looking for that and seeing those bigger picture patterns of how things flow.

And you mentioned the baggage that we can bring. Because, for me, as I thought about how the idea of boundaries feels for me, and thinking back to when I was first playing around with this, I realized that I grew up steep in the conventional culture of competition. So, as I started thinking about this myself, that’s one of the places I went.

So, when I thought about how I anticipated engaging with others in terms of boundaries, it really spiked my defensive energy. As soon as I was feeling defensive, I saw the other person, whether it was my child, partner, whoever I was engaged with, I saw them as the opposition. Like, “You’re the enemy, because I need to defend this boundary. This is a win-lose situation.”

And time and again after having brought that energy to many a conversation, just like you were saying, I learned through experience that when I did that, especially with someone that I love, that perspective and energy just hindered our interaction. It got in the way of us moving forward.

I noticed that my defensiveness raised their defensiveness, which meant that we were both less empathetic. We were just defending harder and harder. And we were each just focused on our own bits and we were only seeing it through our own lens. We listened to the other person not to hear those new bits of information that curiosity can bring and that we notice. We were listening to them so that we could find the things that we could twist in support of the position that we were defending.

So, as I sat with the discomfort of these two seemingly contradictory ideas, “I need boundaries so that people don’t walk all over me,” and, “I want to be connected to this person,” I came to see that, for me, the image of holding a boundary sparks that defensive energy, which negatively impacts my connection with my loved ones.

So, even a rule or a boundary that made sense to me, what it did was shut down so much rich conversation and learning and my opportunity to learn more things about these people in my life, things that I would have never discovered if I didn’t have that conversation in the first place. But those conversations didn’t bubble up if it was just like, “No, you can’t do that. You can’t do that.” 

ANNA: Right. And that’s the thing. We’re talking about a very different style of communication and problem solving, and so I hope it’s clear that as we’re looking at it, because we have this one side, you the zero-sum game, defend your position at all costs. That’s pretty common in our culture. We see it in governments to toddlers.

And then here, we’re talking about listening, stating our needs, listening to someone else’s needs, having those conversations, learning more about each other, moving forward together on the same team. It’s so different, but it’s so much more pleasant and so rich with the discoveries about each other and where we can go from there.

PAM: Absolutely. And what helped encourage me to have those conversations was moving away from the idea of boundaries. And instead, I started using the idea of comfort zones. And what that shift from boundaries to comfort zones reminded me to do was to bring my sense of self. So, it’s not about, “I have no boundaries now, do whatever,” again. It’s never about taking our needs out of the equation. It’s more fully bringing our needs into the moment and into that conversation without having to draw that line in the sand.

So, boundaries feel external to me while comfort zones feel internal. Comfort zones remind me to open up and lean in rather than to stand there right behind the line.

ANNA: Right. And, for me, it’s that line in the sand that I wanted to avoid. And with comfort zones, I just like the feel of it, because we do talk about stretching and growing our comfort zones, and I think all of my relationships have helped me do that.

I think we can come into all of our relationships with some pretty rigid ideas of how things should be. And that can stem from our childhood experiences, the prevailing relationship ideas around us, what’s being modeled for us. But those rigid beliefs don’t take into account the actual humans that we’re living with, how they see the world, what feels good to them, how they process information, what they want to accomplish and learn. And that’s where the curiosity and the communication that we’re talking about comes into play.

I don’t have to stretch my comfort zone, but I want to be open to examining it, especially if it’s somehow putting a limit on someone else. And so, that’s why, in general, I just prefer to look at needs. If we have a situation where we’re at an impasse, if we switch the focus to the underlying needs, then we have more room to find the creative solutions that feel good to both of us. So, I like the feel of that again. It’s just a totally different paradigm.

PAM: It really is. And I love the way you framed that as needs. For me, that shift was that these conversations really ended up being less about the thing, the thing that we were in conflict about, and just more about the people involved, which fully included me, and that’s where the needs come in.

Being curious about what the person is needing or wanting to do and understanding the motivation behind that.

Why is that the next step that makes the most sense to them? And why is that next step right at the edge of my comfort zone? Why is that needling at me? And when we better understand those pieces, we can better explain our perspective and needs to them, which gives them the opportunity to understand us better.

And then, from there, maybe they give us more information that we didn’t think of, information that addresses our need. Maybe we give them a piece of information that they missed, and together we find a different way to meet their need. There’s just so much more space for people to move when you take out the competitive nature of that hard line and just start playing, just start thinking, just start sharing what your needs are, what you’re wanting to accomplish, and seeing where that goes. We can be so much more creative when you take that competitive nature out, I think.

ANNA: Right! Because, as humans, if we’re backed into a corner, we’ll defend something to the death even if we don’t agree with it. It’s just this reaction when someone’s coming at us to start defending. But you see that very different exchange that you were just talking about. It’s like, “Well, here’s what I’m feeling worried about.” “Oh, okay. Well, what about this then? What about that?” We’re working together to try to make both of us feel comfortable, both of us feel good moving forward, and it’s just so different.

PAM: Yeah, and I like how it feels, understanding that I’m choosing to stretch my comfort zone rather than naming it in my self-talk as, “I failed to defend my boundary.” It’s night and day how that feels. “I failed,” or “I chose.” And we can also choose to just not stretch, but we can choose to operate completely outside our comfort zone for a while. Sometimes a situation needs me to do something that in any other circumstances I would not choose to do, but this is where I am right now, and that’s not a failure either.

ANNA: Right. And I think relationships give us so many opportunities to do that, to stretch, but also to just step outside for a minute to take care of business. But I always want to ground myself in the choice. And you mentioned it before.

So, I’m not great at parties. Again, this is a well-known fact. If David wants to go to a party with his friends, it will no doubt stretch my comfort zone. But instead of feeling pressured or as if I need to set a boundary around it, I can first ground myself in the fact that I always have a choice. And then I can also feel that choice and I can bring into play my whys.

In this case, I want to support him. He thinks it’ll be a fun night. And so, with some further conversation, we can figure out a way for it to feel good to us both. Maybe for me, that’s knowing where it will be, who will be there, how long will we need to stay. Should I drive separately? If that doesn’t feel good, can we agree not to stay too late?

That conversation helps us learn more about each other. He’s learning what my concerns are, also what my tender areas are, and I’m learning why it’s important to him and what parts he’s looking forward to and why he wants to go in the first place. And if I just shut that down summarily, “I don’t go to parties, I don’t like them,” we’d miss this chance to dig into that and to find something that feels good to both of us.

PAM: Yes. And that is the beauty of comfort zones for me versus boundaries. It encourages me to actually pay attention to the moment, to the context of the moment, versus, this is my line. This is always my line.

Conversations are so much richer and our relationship connections are strengthened, not strained. I love that piece. When we have that boundary, “I don’t go to parties,” that’s just what we pull out. But remembering my why, and everybody’s why, I can support the why and the joy and all those pieces.

And there are times when I’m feeling resourced, when I’m just in a great place and I can stretch my comfort zone a bit and we can enjoy this thing together. Maybe we’re not enjoying the same pieces, but we can jigger things around so that there are also pieces that work for me. That’s so much richer and there’s just so many more experiences in our lives, like not literally having to do things, but our worlds are bigger when we know more about each other, when we can navigate those pieces.

Okay, so there’s one more aspect that we wanted to explore, and that’s the idea of capacity. I feel it fits so beautifully with this conversation of boundaries and comfort zones, because sometimes we do have a pretty hard limit on what we can physically or emotionally take on in a particular moment, and it can feel a bit more definitive than a comfort zone.

So, for example, having a migraine or being very tired can definitely impact our ability to engage. So, even if we’re not able to stretch right now, I think the idea of capacity just feels more informative and less confrontational. It feels more supportive of the conversations that we’re talking about than a boundary or a limit, or, “I can’t do this.”

It quickly communicates to ourselves and to the others involved in the conversation what we are feeling that we are and aren’t able to take on in this moment. It’s more information about us, again. And capacity can be a great lens to use for us to check in with ourselves and just really feel what’s up.

If our first reaction is, “Oh my god, no! I don’t want to go to a party!” Oh, where did that really strong reaction come from? Oh, maybe my capacity’s really low and I need to do something to address that. 

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Yes. Capacity just feels so much more descriptive to me and it’s much more about the moment that we’re in, because my capacity at the end of a long day is very different from my capacity in the morning. And there can be so many things at play that come into this piece of capacity. Sleep, money, time, illness, all of these different factors.

But what I want to do with all exchanges with the people I love is to keep us on the same side. They aren’t trying to thwart me or harm me. We’re all just trying to get our needs met. And as we keep those lines of communication open, we build trust in each other to work together to help meet all of our needs.

And another idea that a friend introduced to me related to capacity is that we can operate within our capacity and survive, but we might not be able to thrive. So, we’re kind of on the edge of our capacity and we can physically get it done, but it might be taking an emotional toll or even a physical toll, so that when we keep choice in that equation, we can choose to operate within our capacity to thrive. We can communicate that to the people in our lives and help them do the same.

So, I can honor who I am and still support my partner or child, and they can honor who they are and still consider those around them. It’s really important to me to honor someone else’s comfort zone or their personal definition of capacity, even if I don’t understand it or I think they could do more.

This, again, comes into play with our partners and our children. Our honoring of this helps them develop a strong sense of what works for them and their why. I want to trust their process and that they will stretch when it feels right to them. And so, maybe it’s helpful next time we bump up against someone when we think they could do a bit more than maybe they are, is to consider that maybe they’re operating within their capacity to thrive, not their capacity to survive. And wouldn’t it be beautiful if we could all stay in that thriving zone as much as possible?

Because there are going to absolutely be times where we are pushed way outside of it to deal with an emergency or because something has happened around us that we can’t control. But what if, when we see our loved one not doing something that we think they could, we give them that generous assumption that it’s really just them knowing themselves, knowing that whatever it is may push them over an edge that is into survival mode versus thriving. I just love that framing of it as we look at another person and maybe, hopefully it stops the judgment.

PAM: Oh yes. I love looking at things through their eyes, which we had talked about earlier. And even when we don’t understand why they’re making the choices they’re making, remembering that we don’t need to, that it is making sense to them, even if we think that they should be able to do X, Y, or Z.

It doesn’t matter. What matters and what’s interesting, that’s where my curiosity goes, is, “Ooh. That’s feeling really good to them.” And remembering that their choices really aren’t about me. They are not trying to piss me off with this choice. There is some reason for them.

So, I love that distinction between thriving and surviving. Because when we honor those choices, it just gives us another piece of the picture of who they are and understanding that there can be so many reasons why for them. Capacity can be a reason why they aren’t up for it or don’t want to stretch or do the thing that you know that they are capable of doing sometimes.

And it’s especially helpful to question the boundaries that are handed to us by society. One that we see held up often in conventional culture is, “I’m not going to do something for someone else that they can do for themselves.” Oh my gosh. “They need to learn how to take care of themselves.” You see it more often with children, but absolutely you see it with adults, too, that if we do it for them, we are being taken advantage of.

ANNA: But really, we’re just missing these opportunities to deepen that relationship. And then what I’ve seen, and I know you’ve seen it, too, is that when I’m feeling out of sorts and I’m just not wanting to get my own water or whatever it is, both my partner and my kids were happy to bring it over to me because that’s the relationship that we cultivated.

I don’t want to die on a hill of, “I’m not going to do something for you, because you can do it for yourself.” I do things for people all the time that they can absolutely do for themselves. I do it from a place of love and because it’s within my capacity. And when it’s not, I know they’ve got my back. And these skills are critical in all relationships, understanding it’s about learning to communicate more about my needs versus expecting them to understand it or stand behind this strongly-drawn boundary with no explanation. It’s just more information and transparency. The more we have, the easier it is to be in relationship. And, for me, the human experience is relationships.

PAM: It’s relationships. I know. And when you think about it, the more information that you have, it is so often so much easier to find that path through those pieces of information. If I only have two pieces, “They want to do this,” and, “I don’t want them to do this,” how do you find a path between the chasm of those two things?

But as we share a little bit more information back and forth, we’re narrowing in on the path that we can travel between those. Sometimes it takes three sentences and off we go, we’ve got it figured out. And sometimes it takes longer conversations, maybe over days and weeks, but we can find our way. 

ANNA: I mean, it’s just a quick way for me to go, “Hmm. Okay. I want to turn this around a little bit. I want to look at what’s happening to get us back on the same side,” because even when it feels really hard, and it may take a couple weeks to figure out something that’s really big that we’re trying to figure out as a family or a couple, if we’re both over here together working on the problem, it feels so much better than being on these separate sides with this giant decision in front of us, and we’re not really communicating about what our capacity or comfort zones are or any of those pieces. And it feels isolating and tough. But when we’re together, even if it takes us time, it just feels better. It’s about being open about it and examining that and seeing what makes sense to you and it’s so individual.

PAM: Yeah, it’s so individual. It’s so rich. And as we talked about in an earlier episode, where do we want to spend our time? Do I want to spend my time on the same team working together? Finding a way? Because when you’re working together and finding your way together, you’re both invested in this path at the end of it, rather than one powering over another, convincing you to do it this way, or us convincing them to do it this way. But then there’s tears at the relationship. And then we need to invest the work in, in repairs.

So, for this week, we have some fun questions for you to ponder around the ideas of boundaries, comfort zones, and capacities.

The first is, think of a boundary you hold right now with your partner or a close friend. What might be gained from having some conversations around it? Might it give them some more helpful information about you, help you feel more seen and heard in the relationship?

I think that’s another big piece. A boundary only shares that little line of information. It doesn’t share all the little pieces of me that came up with that in the first place.

ANNA: And can we really be understood if they don’t understand those other pieces? They can still honor that boundary. And maybe that feels okay, but with a partner who I’m in love with and this is who I want to be with, that deeper understanding of why that is a rub for me would be so much more important to me than them just honoring what might feel like an arbitrary boundary to them.

PAM: Exactly. Without that information, it can feel like an arbitrary boundary. And absolutely, they can still respect it, but there is a richness that’s missing then that’s the only piece of communication.

Okay, so next, how does the idea of using comfort zones to better understand and communicate your needs land with you? Does that make sense? Maybe try that framework and that language next time and see how it unfolds. Remember, as we talked about, let’s play with this. Let’s see. Nothing is a forever commitment. It’s like, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to try this comfort zone thing, and now I can never use any other language.” No. Play with it.

ANNA: We’re just having fun. We’re just learning things. We’re just trying to learn more about ourselves.

PAM: Yes, yes. Okay. Next one. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive? Another great question, just to dive into that self-awareness piece. It may not be something that we communicate very often, but understanding it about ourselves, noticing how often we are stepping outside of our capacity to thrive more in survival mode. And then that also can help us understand why we’re feeling tired, why we don’t feel like we have a lot of energy, what kind of self-care pieces that we can bring in there. Anyway, it’s a great question to start with. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive?

ANNA: Because I think it also impacts our relationships. So, our culture values this operating at just survival mode. And so, it’s something we all fall into, schools and work and all the things that we’re doing. And so, it is a really interesting question to say, “Am I able to thrive and have the relationships that I want and do the things that bring joy to me? And what can I change?” So, it’s like, “Am I operating outside of that and then what would that look like?” So, I think, yeah, that’s going to be really interesting.

PAM: Yes. And our last one, can you think of times that you didn’t trust someone else’s definition of their capacity? Ooh, that’s a good one. How did it play out? Did it impact your relationship? It’s very curious to see what other people’s lens of their capacity is. As you were saying, are they just living through the cultural expectation that we survive, we go till we drop, put it all in, we are productive to the max. Are they bringing that in? 

ANNA: And I want to add to this one a little bit, that sometimes when we are in that survival mode, when we are pushing, pushing, pushing, we can have resentment towards someone that’s choosing differently. And that resentment may not even make a lot of sense to us, but I think when you look at it through this lens, it’s like, oh, wait a minute. Do I really want to be resentful or passing judgment on someone that’s actually taking care of their mental health and doing this for self-care, just because I’m running my nose to the grindstone?

So, I think it’s really interesting. For me, again, it’s this awareness. It’s like, when we name these things, we’re able to distance ourselves. It doesn’t feel like it’s all who we are. We can go, “Okay, this is something I can examine. I can play with it. I can see how it feels.” You don’t have to make changes, but playing with it just gives you so much more information. And especially if you see it causing a problem in a relationship, it’s very much worth your time to look at those pieces.

PAM: Yeah. Oh, that’s one of the reasons why we are so excited to be sharing these questions, because we are not trying to get rid of some rules or paradigms and then being prescriptive about how, now you must do it this way. No, let’s play with these ideas. These are things that we’ve found helpful in our relationships, paradigm shifts that have helped us. There is no expectation that it will work out any particular way for anyone else, but it is so worth the time to play with it. 

ANNA: And especially if you’re feeling pinches, because I think that’s the thing, if our relationships are humming along, then we’ve got a good understanding. Whatever we’re doing is working.

But when we start to feel the pinch, when we start to feel a distance, when we have a rupture for whatever reason, using these things that we’re talking about can help us really kind of zero in versus standing in a place of hurt or not really knowing how to make the repair or not knowing how to change it even if we can make the repair, because we don’t know how we got there.

And so, these pieces allow us to play with that and to look at it and be like, “Okay, I’m going to be more intentional about this piece for these relationships that are important to me.” 

PAM: Yeah. And for the moving forward piece, like standing there, “I don’t know how we got there,” and two weeks later, “I don’t know how we got there.”

ANNA: We’re here again!

PAM: Okay. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye.

ANNA: Bye bye.

On this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about when school isn’t working. In the northern hemisphere, many children are going “back to school” and so, we wanted to share some thoughts about what can happen when school just isn’t working for your child.

In our conversation, we talked about changes you might notice in your child, about the choices that we have when it comes to living and learning, and about the value of community during that big transition away from mainstream schooling.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

PAM: Hello everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts today, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. In this episode, we’re going to be talking about what you might do when school isn’t working for your child. But before we dive in, I’d just like to take a moment to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.

There is just so much value in walking alongside others on this journey, particularly any kind of unconventional journey like when school isn’t working for our child, because while everyone’s journey is unique, many of us face similar obstacles and challenges. And that is where the power of community shines in feeling seen and heard by others.

In the Network, you can learn from the experiences of other parents on similar journeys, draw inspiration from their a-ha moments, and gain insights from the unique and creative ways they navigate both their own and their family’s needs. To learn more, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on Community in the menu. And Anna, would you like to get us started?

ANNA: I would. Oh goodness. This topic has been coming up a lot over the last few months, really this year, and we just thought it was important to create a space to talk about it. I’m excited about today, because the truth is school doesn’t work for everyone.

Instead of the message that people tend to hear, which is, “There’s something wrong with your child. Let’s do X, Y, or Z to fix your child,” we wanted to say, it’s okay. It’s okay if a particular environment doesn’t work for your child. Parents will tie themselves up in knots trying to make it work and make themselves sick thinking that there’s something wrong with their child or that they’ve done something wrong as a parent, when again, it really just is an environment that doesn’t work for everyone.

And when we think about how people are different, which if you’ve been here any amount of time, you know we talk about a lot, it can help so much in this situation. Because we just are so different. Our brains process information differently. We prioritize things differently. We have different sensitivities and capacities and all of it is just fine.

The journey is in learning more about ourselves and what we need to thrive. And often that just can’t happen in a one size fits all environment. And honestly, how could one size fit all? We’re so different. It’s amazing that it works as much as it does, and we know there are a lot of issues along the way, even for those where it “works”.

I feel like when we think about people and how we work, some people need to move to think, pacing around helps them really solidify an idea. Others like music to help calm a busy mind and that focuses them on the task at hand. Some people like to deep dive into a subject and are not coming up for air for weeks to understand all of the nuances. Others like to flit around and find patterns. They’re pulling from different arenas, to get this bigger web of learning and picture for themselves. None of those types are served in a school environment where it’s, “Sit still. Be quiet. Do this now.” Bell rings, “Do something completely different now.” That’s the way they play the game there. And it doesn’t work for a lot of brains. 

And as soon as we turn a discerning eye to it, we can see why they need to do it that way. It often boils down to crowd management. And this is not about teachers. Teachers are incredible.They’re devoting their lives to creating a wonderful environment, but it just can’t meet the needs of all children. I mean, it just can’t.

So, we see then that it’s not about something being wrong with our child, but it’s more about what our particular child needs to thrive and learn. And it just might not be able to happen in a traditional school environment.

The good news is there are options. Whether it’s an alternative school that maybe can address particular needs of a child or homeschooling or unschooling, there are so many different ways to find what works. Because we’re learning creatures. In a safe, affirming environment, we have almost an unlimited capacity to learn.

Here, we talk a lot about unschooling, because it is what worked for our families. And I do believe it provides a great environment for us to learn more about ourselves and what we need to thrive. Then with that knowledge, we can take that into all sorts of environments and find our own unique path.

I feel passionate about this particular thing because we’ve met so many parents along the way on the Network and in other realms and they are feeling so terrible. And I just want them to know that there’s nothing wrong with a child that doesn’t fit in traditional school.

Seeing children shine for being exactly who they are is a beautiful gift that changes that child. And honestly, it changes us, too. And I’m going to even say it changes the world. So, I’m pretty passionate about this. 

ERIKA: I think it does change the world. I don’t even think that’s an exaggeration. This is such a beautiful topic. I would love to pass along the message that there is nothing wrong with you. There’s nothing wrong with your family. There’s nothing wrong with your child if you’re finding that school is not a fit. It just makes sense. People are so different.

It makes sense that the one-size-fits-all model is not going to work. At the beginning of my unschooling journey, and I think for a lot of people, there are these huge paradigm shifts. When you’re first starting to just even consider, “Should I, or can I, opt out of this system?”

I remember reading John Holt and reading John Taylor Gatto and really, Gatto in particular is very vehement in his arguments against school. And as someone who went to a lot of school and did very well, I feel like reading those kinds of alternative voices did help me a lot in those beginning days.

They helped me to wrap my head around this huge paradigm shift, realizing I didn’t really think about all of those negative pieces when I was just doing what I was told to do and achieving in that system. My children are what sparked me to do that investigation and dive into those topics.

But it did help me to listen to this podcast, to read Pam’s books, and all of these other voices giving me alternatives to what I had always heard my entire life growing up. And so, I don’t know if scary is quite the right word, but it was a really big moment in my brain. 

I felt like school worked for me. I thought it was going to work for my kids. Now that I’m looking at it, maybe it didn’t work as well for me as I thought it did. I can now see new possibilities for my children and especially when I’m looking at kids who are neurodiverse, who have very particular interests and strong interests. I was just picturing that kind of bustling, busy, loud school environment and just not seeing how that could work well for my sensitive first child.

And the journey began there. But it is fun to know how many options there are. And to me, the way that I view unschooling is it’s like we have every option now. If they do want to go back to school, that’s okay too. Because it’s all about learning, learning more about ourselves, learning more about our kids, and then making choices that feel good and feel empowering to us and being able to shift when things aren’t working. So, yeah, I love it.

PAM: Yes. Love it. Love it. And I think that is a place that we get to too in that, at first, I didn’t even know it was a choice. So, for me, that was one of the reasons when, way back when, when I started writing and sharing a little bit more online.  It was just so people knew it was a choice. That was an a-ha moment. Mind blown. Like, oh, they don’t have to go to school. This was, I was just doing the calculations, 23 years ago. 23 years ago. It is so interesting when you can recognize, oh, it is a choice. It doesn’t have to be that way.

And then you can get to that place of learning, like you said, Erika, that these other choices are valid too, that it’s not a failure. I didn’t fail because this environment doesn’t fit for my kids. And a lot of the messaging still is around fixing the kids and getting the kids ready so that they are ready to fit into this environment, et cetera.

But yes, there are more and more voices now and it’s much more well known that these are options and these don’t work for everyone, each one doesn’t work for everybody. And then, if the kids do come home or you just choose not to go, and like you said, Erika, it is totally cool too if they at some point decide they want to try it. At that point, it’s not about school or not school, it’s about what works for this child? What would this child like to do? What things do they want to try? I like to think of learning as a big buffet table and school is a plate on the table, that is a choice you can make.

But before I learned about this, before my mind was blown, it was the only plate on the table. That’s all I knew, right? But now there are so many plates. There is truly a buffet there, and you’re less tied to a particular choice and it’s more about helping each person, us included, because we don’t stop learning just because we’re adults, right? Seeing what choice we want to make in this moment and trying it out and knowing we still have a choice. We can try something and we’re not getting out of it what we thought we were going to get out of it, or we did for a while and now it’s no longer working. That’s totally okay. We can change our mind or we can say that’s enough of that dish. It comes back to our choices. 

And I came to that understanding and realization for my kids through learning that school was a choice, and coming to the point to see that when school’s not working, it’s not about blaming the child and needing to fix the child.

This environment, like you said, Anna, is set up this way because it’s efficient. Teachers are doing their best with the environment as it is and stretching it. When my kids went to school, we had teachers that worked with us, but still there’s only so much they can do. 

There’s the constrained environment of, these are the hours, these are how many kids are in a class. All those pieces. So, it really was, for me, just getting through that initial tendency to blame or to feel like it was a failure to move away from it and to recognize that buffet table that’s really there and that those choices all have value, more or less, just depending on the person who’s at the table trying to decide what they want to partake of in this moment.

ANNA: I love that, because I feel like it’s an empowering place, to realize that it’s a choice and we get to choose. Because I think environments that are big systems like that, I think of medical systems, but also the school system, they drive off of a sense of urgency. And so it’s very much like, “You have to do it this way.” There’s one way and you’ve got to do it and you’ve got to do it now, or there are going to be dire consequences. So, there’s a lot of language that is directed at parents that feels very intense and scary. “If you don’t do this, it’ll never happen.” 

And that’s what’s so valuable about the Network, but also these podcasts, but other environments as well. But in the Network, you see all of these children who have learned to read and who are pursuing their passions and who are doing all these different things that did not follow that one very narrow course that school lays out. And so, it can help you build confidence. And that’s looking more externally. 

Because I would also say, just look at your child, because look at what kids learn without any help at all. Maybe not any help but facilitation, but learning to walk, learning to talk, all the things that happen before school even comes into the picture. Just ground into, okay, I have this unique child in front of me. Look at how much they love this thing. 

And especially, and I love that you mentioned neurodiversity because, if you have a child that’s deep diving into this passion about dinosaurs or trains or something that they love, you see the learning that’s happening. It just doesn’t happen to be fitting into what they need at school. It’s not across these multiple things. But what we talk about in the network and what you know, being around other people that are living this lifestyle can help you see the web of learning that’s coming out from those individual interests.

The web of learning that child is creating as they understand where the trains go and how the trains are built, and who’s running the trains and all the things. That is actually what learning is. So yes, in a school environment, they need to make it. What’s the word?

Conform? They need to make a system that they can plug people into, but we have the ability in our individual families to create the environment where we each can thrive. And I think even if you just take a minute to think about just the people in your immediate family. Look at the differences there.

I think that, again, will help you see it. Because I can think about my husband who is a very tactile, experiential learner, and he’s brilliant, but it’s different from me. I like to read, I like to take in information that way. I’m not really an auditory learner. And then I look at this daughter and she learns this way and this daughter, and I realize there are so many ways that we can learn and move through the world. I think as soon as you recognize that choice, like you said, Pam, it just opens up everything.

ERIKA: I love that you mentioned that, individualized versus standardized. And I think even in school, they want it to be individualized. If it could be, that would be the dream, but it’s just not feasible. There are too many kids, not enough teachers. You just can’t make everything individualized for every kid. And so, by doing it on our own and just following our children’s interests, we’re able to make their lives a perfectly individualized instruction plan, if you wanted to call it that. 

That looks nothing like school, but is allowing them to dive so deep into the things that are interesting to them. And I know on the podcast in the past we’ve talked about learning and school learning and natural learning. In school they’re really pulling the skills out away from, from the context. That’s something that is hard for many children. If growing up it felt like math is so hard and doesn’t make sense, it’s probably because in school it’s completely divorced from any reason to do it, any kind of context at all.

And so what’s great about taking the learning out of school is that then context is everything. If, if there’s a reason to learn something, then they learn it. There’s a reason to read, which there is in every field. There’s a reason to want to read. And so, then they want to read and they learn how to read.

I’ve seen that happen over and over again with other children that I know as well. And just the feeling that I have from watching my children get to these big learning moments in their own way. In a way that they have ownership of that. It’s just so amazing and beautiful that my kids feel like they have done it on their own.  I don’t think they would say they taught themselves to read because the word taught doesn’t really even make sense. But it’s they did that themselves. They know how to read because they figured out how to read. And of course I have played a big role in it, but that’s not what they remember.

They remember that they figured it out. It made sense to them. And so, when you’re coming out of the school environment or starting to question school, it might be those things like, but what about math? And what about the reading? And I don’t know, my child isn’t meeting these benchmarks and how are they going to do it?

It really is just a complete paradigm shift to realize there’s plenty of time and people don’t need to learn things on the same timetable. Following our interests is a path towards learning these underlying skills that will be necessary, for anything that you want to do in life. And learning them with that context makes it so much easier to learn.

PAM: Yeah, I love that piece because I think when we can recognize that school isn’t working for our child and even look for alternative ways, choose homeschooling, choose unschooling, etc., but so much of that journey away is our work to do our paradigm shifts because. School can often be so ingrained for us.

So even if we take our kid out, we can be looking for learning that looks like school learning. We can be looking for progress that looks like school progress because learning in school feels so linear. So step by step by step and learning in action really doesn’t look that way. It can look like

soaking up like a whole bunch and then looking stagnant for a while as it percolates, processes in the background and builds our web of understanding, our connections, that context.

Or something’s hard right now, it’s just not clicking right now. And then maybe just moving on to something else. And then we are finding the next step is this, and the next step is this and you’ll see them get there, but it will look so different. It can come from somewhere different and then just zoom up. It can be months and months and months, and then all of a sudden, a whole bunch happens, big leaps. So, it really doesn’t look like school learning.

Marks go up and down and people have good, easy seasons and harder seasons at school. It’s not so much that it fits with everybody, but it is the way it needs to be presented because we have so many days and we have so many topics that we have to cover. So, it gets chunked out that way, very linearly.

And we have a big group of kids, so math does look like a worksheet. It doesn’t look like how we use numbers out in the world because we don’t have a lot of time to create those situations. But we can create worksheets where you can practice those skills. 

So it is that shift for us. Not only choosing not to send our kids to school. But also then it comes to understanding that the way we thought learning looked, the way it looks in school, the way it’s marked, graded in school, etc. It looks really different when we take out the school environment or take the child out of the school environment. We need to also take all the school think and school lenses that we’re using and, and find new ones. 

Because when we look to our child and we engage with our child and we watch them in action, we see this learning in action. And it’s not that it’s not happening, it just looks very different. I remember like people fresh from bringing their kids home and they’re like, they’re not learning anything. Yes, I know it doesn’t look like they’re learning anything, but that’s because you’ve got your school glasses on and you’re only looking for learning that looks like learning does in school. But actually, if you try to take those off and look at what they are doing. You can see it. 

It just doesn’t happen to look that way, the way school tells us it will look. It’s so fun.

ANNA: I think looking at ourselves, I loved that you said that Erika, you even took the lens looking back at your own journey because you were super successful in school. Most people from the outside would say it worked for you, but you were able to look at it and go, oh, maybe not.

But it’s interesting, because it reminds me of a story with my dad who was an engineer and he did well in school and did graduate work and all the things, but he was also just so engaged and loved learning. And so when my kids were young and I had all the unschooling books everywhere, all over the house, he would read them and we’d have conversations when they were little and he said, ‘School was fine for me. But I can see that it wouldn’t work for everyone and how different it would be if there were choices.’ Because he had friends that he thought of how different it would’ve been for them to not be carrying the weight of thinking there was something wrong with them because they didn’t fit in the environment.

But he said, we just didn’t really have another way to look at it. And so I loved that he could recognize that because again, some people do fine but others don’t and there’s nothing wrong with them. Those are brilliant minds that just look at things in a different way and that linear path, I mean it’s more narrow regardless. I think people that even do well on the linear path, it’s fine, but if they were to stay there, their life would be a little bit boring. But I think they take it and then they move beyond it, especially after school. But there are some kids that just want to move beyond from the beginning. They look at things differently and take information in differently.

And so allowing that context and for things to make sense and having conversations really understanding how our brain works is just so valuable. I would love for people that are thinking about this to get excited. To think, this thing that I’m looking at, maybe it has been judged as a failure or that something’s wrong. But I can get excited about learning about myself and about my child.

We can find the ways that work for us. So because it really is so fun and amazing, and I think community can be helpful, that is why we talk about the network, especially in these situations where you’re making a big transition because really seeing the thoughtful, amazing, brilliant other people and what they’re learning and what’s happening for their families and what’s happening with their children can just really just bolster and give us this beautiful space to share our own journey with people who understand.

ERIKA: Right, especially if the environment we’re currently in does not have much space for alternative thinking. Finding the people that you can have those deeper conversations with when you’re first doing all of that questioning, I think is really amazing. And of course the network is an awesome place for it.

I was also thinking that it’s a fun little exercise to think back about what you remember from school. Because for me that was a big one where it was like, okay, wait, I could say that it’s so important that they learn all these things, but then do I remember those things and does it matter now?

Just little thinking experiments like that to think about, what are my big takeaways from being in school? And what did I get out of it? I think we’ve talked a lot of times about the unschooling journey and how it just opens our brains up to questioning everything.

And this moment of being curious and wondering, is school really the best option for my kid? It can be that moment of, let me question this and then let me question this. And then everything opens up. And what I’ve found is that in the meantime, the kids just keep on living their best life.

And because they already know what they wanna do, you know? And so if we can support them in the things that they really love to do. And then we see that, okay, when they’re really having fun, they’re learning a whole lot. Um, like that really was a, that was a big turning point for me. 

And I remember having the realization that I could follow their happiness and joy.

We are having a really great life. They are learning so much. If I’m constantly there as the support in helping them live their best, most joyful life, I don’t know, that became my focus, especially when they were young, when I was turning away from the idea of putting them into school.

That was a new thing for me to focus on. And when I saw them, just getting so excited and pumped up about a certain topic or whatever, and then they wanted to learn more and then I could bring something else. Those moments were so fun and really gave me confidence in our decision to not go to school.

ANNA: And just to build on something you said real quickly before we wrap up, kids are learning before they go to school. You can see it. Again, acquiring language, walking, colors, animals, all the things. And we as adults are learning long after school as well. And so when you can just go, oh yeah, I don’t have to go to school to learn something and put yourself into that process of, what do I need when I’m interested in something, what do I do? I gather information, I find a mentor. Whatever the things are, then you start to realize they don’t have a lock on learning. That’s  what our culture wants us to think, that you can only learn in this one type of environment.

But there are so many examples across the spectrum of how we all learn at different ages without that one environment. So, you can let go of that weight and really find what works for you and your family.

PAM: Yeah, and I think what Erika was saying, leaning into our kids, that’s the great next step because that’s what helps us see, like you’re saying, there’s not one way to learn in this age range, right?

Recognizing that we do it before and we do it after, and then leaning into seeing our kids doing it to help us realize and recognize how much learning happens even without school. So, like I was talking about earlier, looking for learning to look like school. We don’t need it.

And when we lean in and watch our kids, we see they have their interests. They’re thrilled to have the time now to dive deeper into things if they’re leaving school. It’s just beautiful to watch and just helps us shift and really open up. We realize what learning looks like and it’s just so beautiful and fun.

ERIKA: Can I share one more thought? I just was thinking maybe we could also put a few links in the show notes to Deschooling, a few deschooling episodes. Because that word deschooling is what we use to describe that process of getting rid of some of those school thoughts. That might be a good next step as well.

PAM: Yes, we will put those in the show notes. That’s awesome. Thank you. And thank you so much to both of you. What a very fun conversation. And as we mentioned, we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to dive into these kinds of conversations anytime with other kind and thoughtful parents, and we are very excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in those show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com and click on community in the menu. Wishing everyone a very lovely day!

In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with unschooling dad Alan Marshall in 2018. At the time, Alan was a professional musician and a university music professor with three kids at home. Pam and Alan talked about his family’s journey to unschooling, his eldest’s transition to junior high, ways to approach music lessons, and advice for dads just starting out with unschooling.

We hope you enjoy the conversation!

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

How did you discover unschooling and how did your family’s choice to embrace unschooling unfold?

You’ve been unschooling for almost a decade now. What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives?

Your eldest chose to go to junior high school a couple of years ago. How did she find the transition, and have found it challenging to weave school and your unschooling principles together?

You’re also a university professor, teaching music, and I’d love to dive into that with you. When a child expresses interest in music or an instrument, so often the first thing parents jump to is lessons. Piano lessons. Guitar lessons. Violin lessons. In your experience, is that the best first step?

When a child has expressed an interest in an instrument and parents have rented or purchased one, the conventional advice is for us to strongly encourage them to practice regularly, if not daily. Yet that can soon be met with growing resistance. What are your tips for navigating that situation?

In the bigger picture, how do you see unschooling and learning music—or any other art—weaving together?

As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just starting out on this journey?

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

PAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I’m here with Alan Marshall. Hi Alan!

ALAN: Hello.

PAM: Hello! Alan is an unschooling dad, a professional musician, and a university professor. I’ve come across him online, and I’m really excited to get to chat with him in person! To get us started …

ALAN: Sure. My wife Melody and I are both musicians, and we have three kids. Our oldest daughter is Adie, our middle daughter is Kate, and our youngest son is Gabriel. They are fourteen, nine, and five years old.

We have been unschooling from the very beginning. We started learning about the principles of unschooling back when our oldest, Adie, was first born. And we did a lot of research at that time and decided that we would unschool when she became school age. So, all of our children started unschooling from the beginning of when they would have gone to school, which here, where we live, we live in Oklahoma, is age five. We live in Oklahoma in the US, in a fairly small community, in southeastern Oklahoma. Ada, Oklahoma.

ALAN: Around that time, yes. Just a few months old.

I had thought about the idea of homeschooling, and so started to do some research online with the idea that we might homeschool. And before too long, came across a lot of resources about unschooling and found that really appealing, and so got a lot of information when our oldest was really young, and started to apply the principles of unschooling very early.

For all intents and purposes, from birth, in terms of sleep times and sleep patterns and baby wearing and unlimited nursing and, so, that’s something that’s been part of how we parented from the beginning.

PAM: Oh, that’s really wonderful. So when school age came, your days didn’t really change at all, did they?

ALAN: No they didn’t at all. Where we live in Oklahoma the school requirements are really easy. You literally don’t have to do anything. You just don’t ever sign up for school, and there’s no other requirements. So, for us, there was really no change that came when they became school age.

PAM: And now, you guys have been unschooling for almost a decade. Right?

ALAN: Right on 10 years…Yes.

PAM: Ah, yay. Good math!

ALAN: Our oldest became school age in ‘08. Age five here, compulsory kindergarten. She could have gone to compulsory kindergarten, but that is not required here.

ALAN: Well, there have been a lot of common surprises as far as how things are for the children. Learning things in ways that my wife and I grew up believing sort of tacitly, aren’t possible. Like learning to read in a week.

With our oldest daughter, something that was really surprising for me, even after doing research and understanding the principles behind it, the fact that my daughter just decided to set her own bedtime at a very early age, without being coerced or told or even had it mentioned to her, really, as I pointed to before, was just not on the list of possibilities. But starting at about age seven-ish, seven or eight or so, she just decided that she wanted to go to bed about nine o’clock every night and to wake up at about six in the morning every morning, and that’s what she still does all the time today.

The common point of view is that that’s really not possible, that if you let somebody, or a child, stay up as long as they want, they will just stay up late all the time, for their entire life, and then sleep in, unless they’re given a reason not to. But for some people, maybe that’s true, but for her, she prefers to go to bed early and to wake up early.

There were some humorous times that we had early on that we would ask if she would be willing to stay up a little later so that we wouldn’t need get up quite so early in the morning, back when we would need to get up with her to be safe, and you had the inconvenience of needing to get up at six in the morning with her, either my wife or I, because that’s what she preferred.

PAM: It’s so fun to see how they explore just all their choices, right? All their options and find what is unique to them. I always love hearing about all of the individual kids, because they’ve all hit on things that, like you said, totally unexpected, but they work so well for the individual, don’t they?

ALAN: Yeah. And it ended up working great for what she prefers to do and her priorities. It works perfectly for her. I’m kind of a night owl, so it doesn’t always work perfectly for me. We work that out.

You had asked what was surprising. Something else I think is surprising and continues to kind of surprise me is kind of how deep school-ish thinking and school-ish thoughts kind of run, for us as the parents. About the time that I think I really understand and really have it all down and feel like I know how unschooling should work—and it is good that I have some confidence having done it for a long time—but I always discover a new schoolish thought, or hear my father speaking, hear my father’s words coming out of my mouth, inadvertently, and have to rededicate myself to thinking differently and to doing things differently.

Again, you know, intellectually I knew that that would probably be the case, from having thought about it and read about it for a long time. But then something like that will happen and it’s a surprise, like, “Yes, indeed, it’s ingrained in me!”

PAM: That’s such a great point! Exactly, you don’t realize it. It’s buried really deep inside, and then things happen and all of the sudden it’s been chipped free and out it pops. Like you said, I know, you can realize it intellectually, but I think something that’s been helpful is to also be nice to myself when that happens, you know what I mean? You need to work on it and everything, but not beat yourself up. Because that gets in the way of moving through it, doesn’t it? That just adds yet another layer you have to work through.

ALAN: Oh yeah, absolutely. I don’t think it’s really helpful to feel like it’s not a big deal, like “All parents are like that. It’s just the way it’s meant to be.” That’s not good. But also, it’s not good to be so down on yourself that you made a mistake, that you don’t have the emotional ability to correct the mistake, to do better next time.

PAM: Yeah. You’re not like throwing up your hands, “I can’t do any better and this is just the way it is, right? Like you said, it’s amazing what you can find down there that’s like ‘WOW!’

ALAN: My oldest is 14, so puberty and the teenage years have recently brought out some of those surprising “Oh yes, here’s my dad, coming out.”

PAM: I know. And it’s true that as they reach different milestones, different ages, you just reach things that, in the context of unschooling, just haven’t come up before. Even as young adults, there’s so many conventional messages that we’ve grown up with that we all encounter along the way.

ALAN: Well, the transition for Adie has been surprisingly easy and positive for her. I’ve told a few people who I’ve talked to about it that unschooling was the perfect preparation for her to go to school because her attitude about school is just very different than any of her peers. I mean noticeably, very different.

If you go to talk to any of the teachers, to hear them talk about a student who wants to be there is really eye opening. Just the excitement they feel, to be able to have her there, because she truly wants to be there. That this was a decision that she made one her own—that this was what she wanted to do. And she has been, by any measure, successful so far in doing that. It’s been a positive experience for her, but also the feedback that we get from the school is that she’s wonderful. That she’s great. And I think that’s because she had a choice, she wants to do it.

And this was something that we made a careful decision about. It was actually a few years between when she first started expressing an interest in it. We explored it then, and then we took some time to really help her understand what it is, and to be sure that this is really the choice she wanted to make, that she really understood what would be expected of her, and that she had all the information, and that she didn’t have any misinformation about what school was like, where she might be surprised by things not be what she was really wanting.

But it turns out, for her—I think she’s pretty rare, but for her—it’s exactly what she wants. She wants to learn in that environment. She really likes structure, so she thrives on the rules and the structure. For her it’s really something that she enjoys. And because she could stop at any time, I think that makes it easier for her to submit herself to that structure. Because…

PAM: Absolutely. She’s got choice, right?

ALAN: There is no doubt in her mind that if she ever decided that she didn’t want to do that, she immediately could stop that. That really makes all the difference. And to experience that with somebody I’m close to and that I know—it’s really a revelation. Like I said, even for me, it was a surprise.

And she’s caught up in school, in what would seem like record time. When she first went to school, she couldn’t write at all. Like, she had literally never written anything more than her name. And it was just a few weeks, and she was writing like all of her peers can. And she’s taking algebra this year. She had a little help with math her first year, kind of individual tutoring a little bit, and now she’s taking algebra.

And I remember just a few days ago, she asked me to help her with some homework, because I was good at math in school, so I’m kind of the math parent, you know, kind of, “go ask your father.” And she was doing some kind of algebra thing that I’ve never heard of, and I was like, “I’m sorry. I don’t know if I can help you with this. When I was in school I didn’t really do this.”

So, she taught me to do it. And you know she’s doing the equations and stuff, and she’s like, “Well, you just do it like this.” So, she’s completely caught up. There was no effect of her not going to school that I know of, that I can think of or have heard about. A few weeks, a few months, and she’s just like any other peers, which of course you hear about quite often, what you learn, particularly in the early years in school, you can learn in a few months, if you want to, and she needed to, so she learned it!

PAM: Exactly. So, did she do much preparation schoolwork wise?

ALAN: She didn’t do any preparation.

PAM: Yeah. I just wanted to get that out there.

ALAN: I mean, literally nothing. She’s a late reader, and she learned to read not because she was going to go to school, but because she got a phone. She learned to read a few months before she went to school, just because she had exposure to letters and words visually. She would look up how to spell things on her phone, and that went on for maybe three weeks or so, and then she could read. So, I guess you could say she prepared by learning to read but she wasn’t thinking, ‘I need to prepare to learn to read because I am going to go to school.’ She just thought, ‘I need to learn to read because I want to read my phone.’ So, she just did it.

PAM: Exactly. A reason. A personal reason.

ALAN: Yes.

ALAN: Of course not.

PAM: And that’s kind of the end of it, right?

ALAN: Yeah, and really, I kind of avoid knowing what her grades are. I don’t want that kind of school-ish thinking to kind of invade my attitudes. So, I just try to keep myself kind of ignorant of all that.

I mean, there have been some minor inconveniences in scheduling and getting her everyplace. She rides the bus, so she’s at school before I wake up in the morning, and she’s home in the afternoon. In many ways, I’m unaware of most of the school things.

Another impressive thing that she’s done to go to school, to decide she wants to go to school, she has completely done it independently. She makes her own lunch, she gets herself up, she goes to the bus. She’s responsible. She’s just taken responsibility for everything she needs to do to do it. Because, in her world, that’s just how you do it. It just didn’t occur to her to do anything other that everything she needed to do to do this thing that she wanted to—that was important to her.

So, in a lot of ways, because of her and because of her initiative, it hasn’t been too much of an inconvenience, or hasn’t interfered very much at all with what we want to do with our other children who are still unschooling. She just leaves in the morning comes back in the afternoon and joins us when she gets home, and everything is as it was before.

And so, again, I think we are fortunate with the way things are structured here where we live, that there’s not a lot of expectations on parents who have parents in school who we might think of as unreasonable or getting in the way or being heavy handed.

And we try to be involved in an appropriate way—go talk to the teachers and show our interest and support her, so we are not keeping it at arm’s length, or anything like that, but we don’t have a lot of pressure on us to do certain things. There have been some minor expenses involved with, as you’d expect.

PAM: That’s cool, and that’s such a great point: to be supportive of her and as involved as she’d like you to be, without that tipping over into expectations. Which is one of the reasons why you’re not interested in seeing the grades and stuff like that—you’re being careful not to tip over into having expectations or even, I guess, letting it play with your mind. As in, it’s just easy to think of: ‘good grades, that’s wonderful’ or ‘bad grades, uh oh.’ You know what I mean? It can affect your interactions.

ALAN: Yeah. The danger is that I could be really proud if she got As or something, and the impact that that could have on then, if I’m really proud, or if I’m sort of being effusive about that, and then sometime she doesn’t get As, or something, than what message is that sending, that that’s what’s important. It would probably be subtle, I would probably wouldn’t be obvious about it because I’m an unschooler, but there could probably be some subtle message sent there.

PAM: I know! Even not school-wise, with other things that my kids choose to do, I am careful to be as excited for them as they are for their accomplishment, because once you get into that, ‘Oh, I’m proud of you for…’ it kind of becomes about us. And then, you’re right—next time, if it doesn’t work out so well, then you’re stuck, and you’ve set yourself up for that judgement. Because it feels like a judgement coming from you, rather than support and excitement for them having accomplished whatever it is that they wanted to. It’s a subtle but really important difference, isn’t it?

ALAN: Yeah.

PAM: OK, now I wanted to dive into your experience as a professor teaching music. Because I think that music is another area that is really interesting to think of how we might bring an unschooling context to that. I came up with a couple examples that I have seen questions about over the years, and I wanted to get your perspective on them.

ALAN: I would say that it really depends on the situation very much. I would be really hesitant to make a blanket statement like, “Lessons are always the best thing to start with,’ or “Never start with lessons—that’s a disaster,” or that unschoolers should never have their children take lessons, because I think it really depends on the interest of the child and how the child acquired that interest.

It also depends on the reality of how you can learn to play the instrument, or whatever musical or artistic endeavor you’re doing. If you get interested in playing the harp, you know, the classical harp. That’s hard, that’s fairly hard to do on your own, for fun. It’s a very expensive instrument, it’s very specialized. Probably the best way to learn how to play the harp is to find somebody who already can play the harp and have them help you. Now, that doesn’t mean you have to give that person a cheque and have them give you formal lessons for 60 minutes per week, necessarily. But if you want to do something that specialized, you’re probably going to have to find somebody to help.

But the guitar, you can go on YouTube, and even if you don’t know anything about playing guitar, or anything about music, your child can go on YouTube and get free guitar lessons 24 hours a day. Guitars are more ubiquitous and inexpensive, and I think we all know of people—people who aren’t even unschoolers—who just learn to play the guitar for fun. And they don’t necessarily need formal lessons. They might want to take formal lessons at some point, or they might be a rock star and never need a lesson in their life.

So, it depends a lot on each individual situation, the temperament of the child—or the person who’s wanting to learn, doesn’t always have to be children. Adults can learn instruments and learn music too. And enjoy music too.

And also, the availability of lessons. And how, in your individual situation, taking lessons could involve pressure that isn’t helpful from the teacher. Sometimes the culture of music education is not as helpful as it could be in some places as in other places. If you can find a teacher who’s willing to work with your child and make it fun for them and not put pressure on them, then lessons could be a really great experience for them. But if you are in a situation where, it’s all practice, “You have to practice five hours a day, and I’m the teacher and you’re the student and you have to do what I say,”—they’re very regimented—taking lessons could decrease their interest in music rather than nurturing it.

I hate to give such a non-definite answer, but …

PAM: I’ve gotta say, it’s really an unschooling kind of answer, right, because it depends on the individual!

ALAN: What I can offer as a musician that non-musicians may not know is, how much it depends. There are a lot of variables, and if you’re not a musician, you may not think about those variables.

I think it depends on the person too! I mean there are people who are like, “I want to be a concert pianist one day!” Rather than, “I’d like to play piano for fun sometimes.” And there are probably more people doing it just for fun than people who are really serious about it. Understanding, there’s a lot of in between too, it’s on a spectrum.

And understand really what the interest is. I think that really might be the most important thing, is really getting into the details of what the interest is. To play the piano or sing or play the clarinet—that’s not specific enough of an interest of an understanding of what the interest is that the child has. Why do you want to play the clarinet? What kind of music? For how long, maybe? Even though it’s okay to change your mind about that. So, I would encourage getting lots of information about what your child wants and also about what the situation is and what the possibilities are.

The thing about lessons is that it’s perfectly legal to stop taking them. I would encourage making short-term arrangements at first. Like, “Hey, we want to try this for a couple weeks and see how it works.” Like, “Could I just pay for a few lessons and see if she or he likes it?” Rather than making a big, long term commitment.

PAM: I think that’s such a great point, about just meshing with the culture of that teacher or that music school or whatever. Because so often I think that we can latch on to ‘we’ve heard something good about it’ or ‘it’s the closest music school’ or ‘it’s the only one in town!’ or whatever, and we can try to get our child to fit into that environment, right?

So, if they tell us “They have to practice for X amounts of hours,” or “They have to start with this book and don’t skip ahead—they have to start with lesson one,” you think you have to. It almost puts us back in a student role, right? And then were like, “Oh, we gotta do this, we gotta do this” and all the sudden we are pushing that on our child.

You really can pick and choose the environment that meshes well with your child, and, like you said, what are they looking for. Are they looking to just be able to play and make some music that they recognize? Or do they have bigger goals with it? that kind of stuff. So, the conversation is with them, and what they are seeing in the future of this interest, and then finding the environment that meshes well with them, right? Does that make sense?

ALAN: Yeah. Absolutely, right.

And I think sometimes when it’s something we are not experienced with ourselves, like if somebody’s not a musician, it might be music. For others, it might be something else that they don’t have a lot of background in. That could be a time for caution, to not let other people tell you how it should be because they supposedly know more. And sometimes musicians, I’m afraid, can be a little bit bad about that, about using their expertise to sort of impose their view of how things should be on others, because, “You don’t know about music and I do!” And so, this is how it should be. “How would you know? You can’t even play an an instrument yourself.”

It helps to just have the confidence to say “I appreciate your expertise and your knowledge, but this is what’s going to work better for my child, so I’m going to find a situation that works best for them.”

PAM: That’s a great point, and that’s basically the next question.

PAM: Like, yes, absolutely, you know your child, and what your child is wanting out of this situation and it’s ok to bring that with you, right? So, even though you aren’t the expert in guitar or piano or whatever, it’s ok to say, “You know what, he wants to have fun, and it’s ok if you follow his lead.”

I know I’ve done that a couple of times, that with karate, it’s like, “No, it’s not a big pressure for the next belt, I want him to enjoy! It takes as long as it takes!” I remember once, it was a computer programming camp, and there weren’t many students who came in the summer, and I said, you know what, don’t worry about it, you don’t have to show me some working program at the end of the week. Just do whatever he wants to do and don’t worry about it.

I didn’t know either one of those things in any detail, but I knew what my child was wanting out of the experience. Because that’s where the best learning is going to happen, too and that’s where they are going to learn more about how they feel about whatever the activity is that they are doing.

Maybe they’re more excited and they want to continue with lessons, or maybe they find, ‘This is enough for now,’ etc. But I think they get a better experience with what they’re interested in. It’s an interest of theirs and if they enjoy it, that’s my goal, rather than whatever steps of progress they have set out, I guess to prove that they are doing their jobs, maybe?

ALAN: Yeah. I suppose they are used to needing to provide evidence to justify the expense. So sometimes it could be as easy as letting them know, “You don’t need to justify your work. I’m just happy that they are having the experience and that’s enough.”

PAM: Yeah, that’s great.

ALAN: Well, you were talking about practice, and that made me think about the idea of formal practice.

And actually, I would discourage, particularly someone starting to do music and most other arts from doing practice. I would say, ‘don’t practice.’ And really, I think the problem is formal practice. Like, ‘I’m going to sit down now, and I’m going to practice the piano for an hour because it’s my practice time.’ Because I think that just doing that is pretty doomed to be counterproductive.

In my opinion, as a musician, and somebody who wants to help people who want to learn about music, that has discouraged a lot more music making than it’s helped. For most people, if you start by saying, ‘I’m going to practice an hour a day,’ even if they are motivated, even if they want to do it, that is often not the best way to help them learn about music.

I think it is much better to get involved in music-making, and if you child wants to be involved in music, for example, or in any art form, particularly something that involves performing, getting involved yourself in music-making with your child in some way, I think that might be the unschooling way to do it—not, whether or not you take lessons, or whether or not the child chooses to take lessons or that’s the best option for them. I wouldn’t just send my child off and just say, “Go take lessons,” and then pay your money and then, “You’ve learned your music from the lessons and you’re done,” but get involved with them. Help them find ways to create opportunities. Cause that’s what real practice is.

I don’t know if you’ve heard of Malcolm Gladwell’s “thousand hour rule”…

PAM: 10,000 hours, yeah.

ALAN: 10,000 hours, Yeah, I wish it was a thousand hours!

PAM: I know, right?

ALAN: 10, 000 hour rule.

You have to have 10,000 hours in order to master something. I don’t know if that’s true or not. It’s certainly true that practice is important. You aren’t going to get 10,000 hours of practice sitting down and forcing yourself to practice an hour a day or five hours a day. You’re going to find ways to not really do it if it’s drudgery—and that’s even if you want to do it.

You’re not going to practice an hour a day if you don’t want to. You might tinkle around on the keyboard and seem like you’re practicing so you don’t get in trouble, but you’re not going to practice. But if you’re involved in making music that you’re interested in and you care about, than that counts as practice, particularly if you’re doing it with other people.

PAM: I love that. If you are just weaving it into your life. So, becoming a part of that experience with your child. Like, not sending them off to lessons, but even if it’s, “Let’s sing some songs together,” or, “I’ll sing while you play on the piano.” Making it just something that you’re doing with them so that they’re doing it, not “I have to sit for an hour and practice my scales.”

ALAN: And I’d say, if you can, if your child is learning an instrument—and I understand that some people have bad experiences with learning instruments and they really don’t want to do that, so I understand that that’s really not everybody’s choice—but what could be greater than “I’ll learn to play the violin too, because I’ve always wanted to, and then maybe someday we can play some violin duets together.”

So, the ideal is that you’re actually physically there doing it with them. You could find them opportunities, help find groups they can play in. They could sing in a choir, or play with a band or an orchestra, some community bands and choirs and orchestras, they take you and your child, maybe, if you can, if you play—if you don’t, that’s ok too.

And then, often, if you’re doing that, then lessons come up naturally. Like, “Oh, I want to be able to do this and I can’t. Could I take some lessons so that somebody could help be able to do this better? Because now I’m really interested in it.” And I think, often, that’s a better way to get to lessons than, “I’ve always wanted to play this instrument so I’m going to go get lessons.”

Again, I don’t want to say that that’s never ok, because, actually, my daughter had wanted to play the flute, and she actually said, “I want to take flute lessons.” First time she ever played the flute was at her lessons. Again, that was very specific situation, she had a very definite idea of what she wanted to do and how she wanted to do it.

But my daughter loves to sing. She kind of inherited that. My wife and I are both professional singers. She wanted to sing, and it was because we are a musical family, it was just really part of the background always. She just started singing with us in choir, in church choir, and just started doing little performances. She’d learn a song, and then she’d find a way to perform it.

And then, after she’d done that for a good three or four years—starting very small, doing it very occasionally and then doing it more and more—then she decided she wanted to take voice lessons, as a continuation of that. It can happen both ways, but in both cases, we are with our daughter, making music, almost every day.

It’s not just musical families that can do that. For anything, you can find a way to do that. And to me that, for the arts, for anything, that’s the unschooling principle that can be the most valuable. And, if your child is interested, it can eventually lead to that traditional, ‘wins a contest’ or something. Eventually something like that will happen, but if you just aim for that from the beginning, it’s less likely to happen, and much less fun along the way.

PAM: That’s so true. When you’ve got a goal, like something that you want to accomplish, it’s just more intrinsically motivating to get there, when it’s not something that’s 10,000 steps away, you know what I mean?

Something that is achievable, it’s on the edge of your competence, so you need to learn to get there, so you’re motivated. It’s something that you want to do so you’ll pick up the instrument or the art or whatever it is, whenever you have a moment, because you want to, right? So, rather than, ‘I need to do this for one hour because someday I want to be able to do X,’ if you’re excited to get to that step that you can just see really close, you’ll do it whenever you have a moment.

My son Michael, he’s somebody who wanted to learn the guitar, and he has learned through YouTube. And I sit in the other room, and I don’t know if he’s playing music, or he’s literally playing it himself. So that has been a good experience for him.

We went into the local music store a couple of years ago now, because he finally gotten to a place where he actually wanted his own guitar. We had a few lying around, and he wanted his own guitar, so we went to the local shop and he talked to the guy for an hour, and he had a grand old time picking out his own guitar. But he comes from home from work, and he gets home 11:30, 12 at night, and I wake up and hear him playing—he picks it up whenever he’s got the time. There’s just something, whenever someone tells you you have to do something, that you resist, that instead of that hour, you find that, whenever you have an hour, you just dive into it. It’s just a different mindset.

ALAN: And I don’t think that anybody has ever become truly a master at something or really great at something or achieved something remarkable, in music or in any other field, by forcing themselves to be interested in it. You don’t practice 10,000 hours or whatever it is, in order to become interested in being a musician. You practice the 10,000 hours because you’re interested.

PAM: That’s a great point, yeah.

ALAN: And there’s a lot of evidence that a lot of the talents that people have actually comes from that intense interest and practice. That a lot of people who are so talented that they practice more than anyone else, but to them, it doesn’t seem like practice, so it comes naturally.

PAM: Yeah, they’re just doing it, right?

ALAN: Yeah, it seems like an amazing talent, right? And it’s not necessarily that you couldn’t have that talent too, it’s just that you’re not that interested. You’re doing something else that you’re talented at.

PAM: Exactly. And that comes back to choice again.

ALAN: I wouldn’t want anyone to feel like in order for a child to be interested in music that they have to have the, sort of, genetic background in being a good musician. That could be one way to get interested in music. Your child could be a great musician even if you’re not. It’s possible. But you just have to let your child decide for themselves, to discover whether they have that gift, and also whether they want to pursue that gift. And it’s ok if they don’t! But don’t assume it can’t be done because it’s not you.

PAM: And you know something that I’ve found through unschooling, I have found an interest in so many things that I did not know that I would enjoy before having kids by being introduced to it by them. And then, all of the sudden, “Wow, this is fun!” and “I’d love to do this with you” etc. So, like you said, even if you’re not musical, and even if you don’t think you could be music, when you keep that open mind and support and try to engage in things they are interested in, you may be surprised at all of the interesting things that are out there in the world that you may find yourself enjoying. When you keep an open mind, our kids introduce us to so many fascinating things that we wouldn’t have ever imagined we’d be interested in. Have you found that?

ALAN: Yes! For me, my youngest son, he’s only five years old, but he’s only interested in boy things. You know, trucks and guns and so. I’ve always been a music nerd and not that interested in those sorts of things, but now I’m starting to explore that side of myself which I didn’t really even know existed.

Just by, you know, video games. I’ve never played a video game in my life! So, I’m helping him play his video games, just in the natural course of just helping him do what he wants to do, I’m having some different experiences, so it’ll be fun to find out if that continues.

PAM: Our children expand our world so much, I think. OK, now we’ll get to that last question.

ALAN: For me, the thing that I’ve had to try to be conscious of the most, and I think this is related to my gender, as far as I can tell—to the extent that I am self-aware, I think this might be gender related—I have to really think about being involved day-to-day, moment-to-moment, with my kids.

This may not be something that all men share, but, in my example growing up, the male parent was maybe a little bit at a distance. Kinda maybe didn’t do the day-to-day, nitty-gritty work of parenting, always. That’s not necessarily because of traditional gender roles only. Sometimes it can be more subtle than that.

I’m kind of the stay-at-home parent, my wife and I switch off—we both work, but she works more than I do. So, I would be considered the stay-at-home parent if you had to name one of us as the stay-at-home parent. But even though I’m the one at home often—kind of reversing that traditional gender role—still there’s more subtle male gender role thing of, “You kids play, and I’ll go do my adult stuff over here.”

I don’t know, for me, I’ve found that I really need to be aware of that. And to make a conscious decision to, ‘I’m going to do this a little differently than what was shown to me when I was younger, or what the cultural expectations might still be.’ Even though I’m not a traditional dad, in the moment, when I’m actually interacting with my children, I need to decide that I’m not going to be the traditional male—I’m going to be playful, I’m going to joke around, I’m going to do guy-stuff with my son, even if that’s not my immediate natural inclination.

So that’s what occurs to me that it might be helpful to talk about with other men, to maybe be aware of that tendency. Whether you’re a traditional sort of bread winner and you come home in the evening and see your kids in the evening, or even if you are a stay-at-home dad and you’re the primary caregiver, that might be going on. That dynamic might be there.

I just think that’s something that might be worth considering.

PAM: Yeah, that’s a great point. And the tendency, especially if our kids our occupied and doing things, the tendency is to pull back and do our own things. There’s just so much that we get out of that connection when we do engage with them, right? So, you’re finding that to be a positive experience, yeah?

ALAN: Yes, absolutely, yes!

I wouldn’t want to force myself to do it in an, ‘I’ve gotta go play with the kids now so that I can be a good unschooler,’ way. That’s not an attitude that would be helpful at all, I don’t think. More just, when the opportunity arises, you know, go out of your comfort zone a little.

And also use your partner as an example. My wife is sort of always just been great with kids, so she is just silly with small children just to make interacting with them fun—if I can just be silly, I can make a joke or make things into a game I can get things going so that I can have some interaction and get something out of that. Observing moms, and particularly my wife, and learning a different way of doing things—it might be a little different than what I’m used to, but to avoid doing it in a resentful way. Not like it’s a job, like “I’m required to do this much interaction with the kids in order to be a good modern dad.”

PAM: Back to ticking off those boxes.

ALAN: I don’t think that would be helpful. But the time you do spend with them, just kind of expand your idea of what that means a little bit.

PAM: That’s such a really great point, Alan. Thank you for bringing that up.

And I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me today! I really appreciate it. Especially your perspective on music and lessons, and I always love hearing about other families and their unschooling experiences. So, thank you very much.

ALAN: Thank you. Thanks for asking me!

PAM: It was wonderful!

And before we got, where is the best place for people to connect with you online.

ALAN: Facebook, that’s the best, easiest place to find me. Alan Marshall. A-L-A-N Marshall. And I’m in Radical Unschooling Info.

PAM: I will put those links in the show notes. Thank you very much! Have a wonderful day!

ALAN: You too. I appreciate it.

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Consent and Consensual Living.

Consent is really the backbone of everything we talk about. Everyone, regardless of age, wants agency. When we can shift away from control, because we truly can’t control other people, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm, leading to more connected relationships.

We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

Want the full collection of Living Joyfully Foundations podcast episodes as an audiobook (and the transcripts edited into an ebook)? Find them here in the Shop!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

ANNA: Hello again and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We’re excited you’re interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

So, in today’s episode, we’re talking about consent and living consensually, and I have to say, this is one of my very favorite topics. It is really the backbone of everything that we talk about. When we understand that everyone, no matter their age, wants agency, and that we truly have no control over another, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm.

And it’s interesting, because I think intellectually most of us would agree that consent is important, that we should never push past another person’s consent. And yet, in our desire to control outcomes, we often do, and this is especially true for children. And yet, how can we expect children to honor consent as adults if they have never experienced what it means to work together to find solutions to that feel good to both parties?

And it comes into play in adult relationships as well, in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. We look to change people. We have expectations and agendas that we push without regard for who that person is and what they want and what they value.

PAM: Yeah, exactly. And for me, consent and by extension, living consensually, was one of those ideas that once I saw it, I couldn’t unsee it. I soon recognized how often I was trying to very subtly wield control to move through situations in ways that made sense to me, especially interactions with my partner and my kids. And looking through this new lens, I notice now how disconnecting those control tactics were for my relationships. Basically, someone was almost always disappointed or disgruntled in a family of five.

But I also observed that many of our interactions were steeped in power. And at their root, they were about me, often very politely, but I was convincing, coercing, or guilting the other person into doing what I wanted them to do. Gee, that calls back to our last episode as well, doesn’t it?

ANNA: Yeah. It does!

PAM: And I realized how draining that was. My understanding of consent grew exponentially once I realized it wasn’t about me convincing someone to agree to do the things my way. That’s consent, right? Instead, it was so much more about seeing through their eyes and recognizing that there are many valid paths forward, not just mine. Consent meant working together collaboratively to figure out an often new path forward that made sense still and felt good to everyone involved.

ANNA: Yeah, right. It definitely hearkens back to that episode and also to when we talked about how different people can be, because when we push our agenda without consideration of how the other person feels or moves through the world, when we have ultimatums or even just expectations that are kindly and politely put out there, we’re taking away that other person’s agency, and that is just not a solid place from which to build a strong relationship.

Humans want autonomy. They want to have agency over their lives. So instead, we can learn about one another. We can commit to deeply understanding what makes each of us tick. We can set up an environment where we find solutions to problems together, trusting that we’ll keep at it until both parties feel good about the plan.

And that’s really the core of choosing to live consensually. The process involves listening and validating, being able to clearly articulate our own needs, but in “I” messages, not demands. After everyone feels heard and seen, that’s where we can cultivate this open curious mindset, this brainstorming-type idea about how to solve the situation at hand. At that point, we’re all on the same team. We’re working together to solve for all the needs, instead of standing on opposite sides, defending and advocating only for our own needs.

And a big part of this is understanding that there are almost always underlying needs at play. So, very often, a conflict is sitting at one level that can feel impossible to solve. One person wants to go out, the other wants to stay home. Where do we go with that? But if we peel back a layer to see the underlying needs, then we have more to work with. We have more options to consider. But we can’t get there if we’re stuck in that place of thinking their actions are about us, if we think our partner is just being difficult, if we’re taking it personally. There are needs on both sides of that argument and understanding those opens up the options.

So, maybe one wants to just really see their friends. So, could the friends come over instead? The other had a long day and just needs some downtime. Is allowing a bit more time before going out the fix? Solutions are everywhere when we assume positive intent on all sides and start working together to understand each other and the situation more.

That quick reminder that they’re just humans trying to meet a need helps us remain connected and curious. And now we have a puzzle to solve together, instead of two or more people digging in their heels on opposite sides of this surface-level disagreement.

PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And, for me, it made all the difference in the world when I felt we were truly all on the same team, trying to figure out a way to move forward that met each of our needs. It was such a big energetic, feeling difference. So, we can just take a moment to envision what that might feel like. So, when each person feels seen and heard and trust that their needs will ultimately be met, it is so energizing. It opens up so many creative possibilities, rather than locking two people, as you said, into that battle until one comes out the winner. There’s a winner and loser in that situation. Who has the power? Who can convince the other one to do it their way?

It definitely takes time and patience and practice to bring consent into our everyday relationships, but it really is life-changing. I do want to acknowledge the time that these conversations can take as you work together to figure out those underlying needs, to figure out a path forward that works for everyone. But the other path, which is the argument, the power struggles, and then the aftermath of needing to repair the relationship, that takes up time, too. So, which process feels better to experience with those you love, trust and collaboration or judgment and power struggles?

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. So, that right there was really a big part of me wanting to move in this direction. It takes time and energy to argue one’s position and to try to win everything, energy that I found draining and disconnecting. And I knew I didn’t want to live in that energy every day. It felt very assaulting to me.

What I found was how rewarding and connecting it was to live in a house with no top-down agendas, no punishment or control, just connection and collaboration, whether it was with David or if it involved our kids. We were all invested in helping each other meet our needs and do the things that we wanted to do. That deep level of trust that you will be supported and unconditionally loved is the energy I want to cultivate and bask in every day.

And so, somewhat related, over the years, David has had a lot of hobbies that people would consider dangerous. They’re a part of who he is, and I’ve always wanted to support him in those pursuits, even when I didn’t understand it. And by putting that out there, what I found in return is someone who supports all my wild hair ideas and whom I trust will always be there for me.

That is worth so much more than me trying to control who he is and shape him into someone who may feel safer and easier for me. That’s my work to do and, for me, it was rooted in gratitude for the time we have together and letting go of fear. Because fear is so often the root of control and letting that go allows us to find gratitude and connection to truly love those around us for who they are and how they move through the world. And that unconditional acceptance was what we both wanted to continue when we had children.

And honestly, raising children in a consensual environment where we were all trusted and supported, where we learned to understand and express our needs and knew we would be heard and that solutions would be found, has been one of the greatest experiences of my life.

PAM: It’s been a life-changing and amazing experience, and I wanted to take a moment to talk a bit more about unconditional love and acceptance. I love that phrase. And, for me, it doesn’t feel like throwing my hands up in the air and thinking, whatever! Whatever they want to do!

I think when we hear unconditional at first, that can be what we think. Okay. No conditions. I have no input. Whatever they want to do, just off they go.

For me, unconditional means without expectations, so without conditions, not withholding our love and affection if the person makes a choice that we don’t agree with, even more so not using judgment and shame as tools to try to get them to change their mind.

But not having conditions doesn’t mean not trying to understand them as a person, like we have been talking about. If they make a choice that doesn’t make sense to us, unconditional love doesn’t mean we think, “Whatever. I still love you. Off you go,” and then burying our feelings of concern.

So, instead we can be more open and curious. We can learn more. Maybe it’s in direct conversation with them or by paying extra attention to how the choice unfolds for them. How are they navigating it? What are they enjoying about it? I am so curious. What the heck do you enjoy? But either way, we learn more about them. We have a better understanding of who they are as a person.

Because even if we often say, “I love you!” it is hard for someone to feel loved for who they are if they don’t feel seen and heard. They think, “Sure, they said they love me, but they don’t really understand who I am.”

Being in relationship with a person means understanding who they are, which also isn’t a one and done thing. We all grow and change over time. To embrace consent and consensual living in our relationships with the people we love is to choose to be curious about who they are as a person, because that is a great place to start just right there. Like, who is this person?

ANNA: Right. And like you said, when we say, whatever, I love you, whatever, do whatever. That doesn’t feel good. So, even if I don’t understand something, I can ask questions and just like we’ve been talking about over these last few weeks, learn more about them. And then as we leave ourselves open to that, we’re seeing through their eyes. We’re starting to see like, okay, it does make sense that they love this. I see how that’s feeding them. I see what they love about it.

And so, that moves us from this place of, okay, I’m not going to stop them, to, I’m celebrating who they are. And that switch is so big, moving to celebrating. Even when it’s something we may not participate in ourselves or fully understand, we do understand through their eyes what they’re getting from.

PAM: Yes. And we can connect. So, maybe it’s a thing that, “Yeah, I don’t want to join you in your thing. I’m glad that you love it.” But where we can also really deeply connect with them is thinking about something that we love that much. So, when we know that, it’s like how much I love this thing, then I can get a real feel and sense for how much they’re enjoying the thing we’re doing, and less about having conversations later about the facts of what happened.

It can be, “I bet you had so much fun.” You can talk about the energy, you can talk about the experience. That’s where you can connect with them and share and celebrate them. I love that point that you shared about getting to the place where you can celebrate their love of the thing. You can celebrate their choices without having to make the same choice, without having to join them, but we can celebrate that energy and knowing how it feels for ourselves, too.

ANNA: Yes. I just love how you’re saying that, because that’s the piece. We can celebrate how much joy it brings to them. We can celebrate their excitement about something, even if we can’t celebrate the individual piece of it, because we maybe don’t understand it or it doesn’t appeal to us. But that’s irrelevant. When someone you love lights up about something, be it a child or your partner or your friend, that’s energy we can get on board with. And celebrating someone for something like that, it builds this deep trust and bond, that I’m seen by this person that they really see me and it’s just really beautiful. So, I love that.

So, let’s give a few questions to ponder as we’re thinking about consent and living consensually with your loved ones for this week. What does consent mean to you? How do you see it weaving together with agency? I think this is going to be good.

PAM: Yeah. That is so interesting, that connection between those two things. And just thinking about agency, is that something I want to step on? How does it feel to have agency? To have choice? How does consent weave in with that. I think that’ll be really fun to play with.

ANNA: Yeah, to peel a little of that back. Okay. So, think about a recent argument you had and how you expressed yourself. Could you reframe or reword some of what you said as an “I” message? That can be both less confrontational and more accurate. So, for example, instead of saying, “You’re not listening to me,” maybe try, “I don’t feel heard.” Rather than getting stuck in the endless round of, “Yes, I am listening.” “No, you’re not listening,” and we have this meta fight that starts happening, it encourages the conversation to go deeper. “Why are you not feeling heard? I don’t understand. I want to understand.” It just takes it to a different place.

PAM: Yeah. And that’s a great example of getting to the underlying needs, because so often, we can take that need and jump to the solution and share the solution. Not feeling heard, the solution is for them to listen to me. So, I say, “You’re not listening to me.” But they feel that they are. So, that doesn’t click for them. So, if you go to the root, to the need, the need is, I’m not feeling heard. Then maybe there is a different way. It’s less confrontational and it’s also more fundamentally accurate.

I’m not feeling heard. That’s where we are. If you can come up with new and interesting ways for me to feel heard or for me to see that you’re hearing what I’m saying, that’s where the rub is right now. I don’t need to give them the solution that I think they need to do.

ANNA: Right, Exactly. Because again, that gets us in that meta argument, which just never ends well. Okay, so, what barriers do you see to living consensually? And how would it feel to set them aside? And I think this one’s important, because I think for most of us growing up, we may not have had choices and consent in all areas our life. So, it’s not necessarily something that we have a lot of experience with, but I think you can feel the difference. And so, I think even just the thought experiment of setting it aside, what would it look like to have this collaborative relationship with all the people that I live with? How would I feel?

Think of the areas that rub or that feel draining for you in your day. Would changing that paradigm soften some of that? I think that’ll be interesting.

And the last one is, this week, practice contemplating the underlying need that your friend or partner is trying to meet through their actions. I think write out some examples so that you can start to see patterns, because we can see patterns of, when they’re tired, they get a little grumpier. It can be hungry. It can be things like that. And it can just be, oh, okay, this one thing kind of triggers this same type of argument each time, so there must be something else under it.

And so, I think when we start to look for patterns, when we start to think about it, for me, behaviors are always a reflection of a need. So, when we see a behavior, whether we like it or don’t like it, look at what’s the need that’s playing out here? And so, when this is not in a charged situation, as well, then we start to just be better at recognizing the behaviors as a reflection of needs. And then we get better at it. Like we said, it’s just practice and learning. And so, then we don’t get stuck at that rubbing point of the behavior.

PAM: And I think it is so valuable for us to start with contemplating it, because if you all of a sudden start, when you’re having a conversation or conflict with someone, saying, well, what is the need underneath? Why are you asking for that? That can be off putting. And they’re not thinking in that way yet, so they may well not be able to answer that question for you.

But when we start thinking that way, like that example that we just talked about, you’re not listening, but I want to feel heard, when we start practicing that, over time we get better with identifying those. And the other piece being, I also love your patterns note, because there can also be patterns to when those things bubble up for them and we can even play with addressing those needs.

When somebody starts to feel a little bit grumpy and you’ve seen over time that it’s often when they haven’t eaten or anything, even if we just like grab a glass of water or whatever, bring a drink, bring a quick snack. Don’t say anything. Just hand it to them while you’re starting into the conversation and just see how that goes, back to the playing with it.

But yeah, being able to contemplate it ourselves and start to see it without putting expectations on other people to meet us right there. When we start doing this, they will get curious. We will have opportunities outside of the charged moments to mention these things. So, it’s something we can all get to, but again, needs time to practice, needs time to just kind of soak in the ethos.

ANNA: And having that self awareness piece. When when I make it have an action, what’s my driving need? What need am I trying to meet with this action? From simple things like I’m calling a friend. “Hey, I’m feeling lonely, or I’m feeling like I want to be heard by someone, or I’m just wanting to connect.” It can be anything. But if we start to just understand that the behaviors are always driven by a need, it just gets easier and faster to recognize them.

PAM: It does. It does so much. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.

ANNA: Bye bye.

Join Pam, Anna, and Erika to talk about bids for connection. John and Julie Gottman from the Gottman Institute coined the term “bids for connection” to describe many moments through our days when people in our lives try to connect with us.

In our conversation, we talked about what those bids can look like (sometimes it doesn’t feel connecting at all!), what turning towards, turning away, and turning against a bid feels like, and we shared lots of examples from our own lives. Getting curious and looking through this new lens can really help strengthen our relationships with the people we love.

We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

ANNA: Hello and welcome. I’m Anna Brown, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. Hello. And if you are here with us and enjoying the podcast, I invite you to join us at the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such a beautiful, supportive space filled with intentional people exploring ideas and sharing their journeys, and it just fills me up so much and I just want everyone to experience that.

You can learn more about the network at the Living Joyfully Shop, which also has resources and support in the forms of books, courses, and coaching as well. You can find the link in the show notes, or you can visit livingjoyfullyshop.com. In today’s podcast, we will be talking about bids for connection.

I love this reframe. It has helped me so many times, so I’m really looking forward to this discussion and I think Erika’s gonna get us started. 

ERIKA: I would love to. I just love this topic so much and I would like to give a brief introduction to the idea of bids for connection. Doctors John and Julie Gottman from the Gottman Institute have been studying relationships for many decades, and they came up with this concept of bids for connection as a way of viewing our interactions with the people we love as opportunities for validation and connection. So a bid for connection is just a little action. Something someone says that indicates that another person would like to connect with us.

It could look like someone saying, look at this, or I’m exhausted. Or it could be a hug or a request for help, or a loud sigh. It’s basically an opportunity to make a choice in how we respond and the Gottmans describe three possible directions we could take. So the first is called turning towards, which means enthusiastically meeting the bid with connection, looking towards the person, responding with validation, increasing those feelings of connection. The person is feeling seen and heard, and the relationship is strengthened. 

The second is called turning away, which could look like just staying mostly unengaged by the bid. So maybe just continuing to look at whatever you were already working on. Glancing up for a second to say, mm-hmm. Or wait a minute. Something like that. Sometimes it feels like this is the best that we can respond in this moment, but over time that type of response will lead to disconnection in the relationship and the person can feel rebuffed or like you’re not very interested in them. 

And then the third is called turning against, which is usually the result of being in a state of overwhelm. So turning against would look like aggressively rejecting the bid for connection. Like, can’t you see I’m busy? Or, oh, here we go, what now? Or rolling your eyes. So turning against damages the relationship and makes it more likely that the person is not going to make future bids for connection. 

So I found some examples of what these three options might look like with a couple different bids.

So if someone says, can you come here for a minute? Turning towards, might be, sure what’s up? Turning away. Might be, in a minute. I’m almost done with this. And turning against might be, can’t you see? I’m watching the game here. You can imagine how different those three responses would feel. 

If someone says, whoa, check out that view. Turning towards might be looking at the view and saying, whoa, that’s amazing. And turning away might be like not really looking up at all and saying, mm-hmm. And turning against might be really, you had me look up for that?! 

I thought that one was kind of an obvious example. But this next one was super interesting.

So say if someone says. I’m exhausted. Turning towards might be. Is there anything I can do to help you feel more rested? Turning away might be, I know me too. And turning against might be, you don’t think I’m tired, and so I thought the turning away was more subtle in this case, since basically saying “me too” might feel validating in some ways.

But I think the point in turning towards is really to keep the focus on the person who’s making the bid and making sure that they’re validated in their experience first. And so rather than turn it around and immediately make it about both of us being tired, validating them first may feel the most connecting.

And one of the aspects that I find so interesting about this topic is just how varied the bids for connection could look like. That sigh just walking in the room and sitting down, getting louder and louder, which some children will do or asking for help. The possibilities are really endless. And there was a great network thread about bids for connection that looked like requests for help getting food, which I think we see a lot with our kids.

So anyway, I love this topic and I’m super excited to dive with you both.

PAM: Yes. I love this topic too, and I remember so many conversations over the years and the big aha moment for me when we first started using this lens of bids for connection was that defining things that felt like an upset kid or that felt like more of a challenge, right? Just seeing it as the challenge, but then realizing, oh, really, I can frame it as a bid for connection because they’re wanting help with it or maybe they’re expressing more frustration than they really feel because they want to make sure that the bid connects.

They’re just trying to get some interaction. So I found that to be a super useful way to look at it. And also, if I ever in the back of my mind said they can do that themselves, why are they asking me to get them a drink or make a sandwich or, pass me that thing that is like five feet from them that they could get up and get, reframing that and understanding that really so often it is more about connecting and interacting with me than it is about the thing.

Because they could just get up and get it if it was just about the thing. And just through the experience of responding as it was a bid, turning toward it and seeing how fruitful choosing that action was. The connection that actually followed, just reinforced the idea that so often these really were bids for connecting with me or with someone else. Right. So I think it’s such a useful lens to bring to our days.

ANNA: Yeah. I love that point, what you just were talking about there, because I think sometimes people will ask and wonder, how do I cultivate these close, connected relationships? Or we’re not in a good place and what do I do?

Or it’s a teenager and it’s feeling harder. This lens is so helpful because it is so rare that a teen is going to come up and say, Hey, I want to talk to you and have some attention now. Let’s make a connection. It is going to be sitting in the room, walking in, and in my case, she’ll come sit and sit. Just sit. And so, then it’s like, oh, okay. She’s wanting a little bit of connection with others. Or It can feel like a demand. Like why? You’re right next to the water. I’m way over here. Why can’t you get the water, you know? Oh, they want me to look up from what I’m doing.

So, I think there are a couple steps that were helpful to me when I would hear something that kind of plucked me the wrong way, you know, something that maybe felt like a demand. I would look at the whole context,  am I present with them? Am I busy with something else? Is that something they feel like will get my attention away from what I’m doing?

And so then I can check in and make a choice. But like you said, what I loved about what you just said, Pam was when we choose to lean into these bids, even when they feel a little unconventional or not like what we’re expecting. It’s so fruitful. You just see it opens up or the energy changes or a conversation that maybe wouldn’t have happened unfolds.

And with my quiet one that comes and sits down, it takes a long time, but then she gets to what she wants to talk about. And if I short circuited that, because I’m like, why are you here? You’re not saying a word, then I’d never get to, I’m worried about this thing or this thing happened and I’m kind of excited about it, or whatever the thing is that she wants to share.

It’s just a really fun lens to bring to all of these interactions and because my kids are older now, but when you have little kids and you’re doing all the things, it can be really hard when there are lots of bids for connection coming at you.

And so I tried to be mindful. I knew that every second I couldn’t drop everything and turn towards them. That sometimes that just wasn’t a reality when you had a baby with a diaper, you’re in the middle of changing. And so instead of that, like you were talking about earlier, Erika, In a minute, I’ll be there in a minute. That kind of has a rushed or hurried or annoyed tone to it. Even if my hands were deep in something, just making eye contact, smiling and, oh my gosh, I cannot wait to see that. I will be right there. I need to do X. Give them more information.

That narration that we talk about. So that they know, okay, it’s not that I’m valuing this thing, I’m doing more. It’s that I’m in the middle of it and I need to finish it to get it to a place where I can stop. But wow, am I interested in you and what you’re bringing to me. And I think that can make it feel so different.

So don’t be hard on yourself if you can’t just stop everything and turn straight into the bid, but you can do that little tweak of the eye contact, the smile, the turning towards, even if you have to finish something.

ERIKA: Oh yeah. I love that slight adjustment to make the turning away feel more connecting as well, because it’s in between turning towards and turning away and then making sure to follow through when we do have time. 

That follow through is like a mini repair that improves the connection again. So maybe I couldn’t immediately do the thing. But if I’ve had a pattern of turning away and being busy and being busy, then making the repair of, and now I have time and I’m going to do it, it can help. But also noticing if we have a pattern of turning against, if things have been really hard, and then making that repair and watching for opportunities to turn towards.

I think that’s what it’s all about. Just noticing. And I love what you brought up too, about it being a good place to start when you want to improve your relationships. Just using this lens as a place to start. It’s never going to be a bad thing to assume that everything’s a bid for connection.

You might as well just start there, and just see if maybe the more I turn towards all these little things, that I’ll just strengthen our connection. When I think about those ones that are harder, when someone’s being super grumpy, when someone is snapping at us, when someone is sighing or whatever the things are that can sometimes trigger us, when we’re busy ourselves, showing kindness and turning towards those hard moments for other people, I think it has so many positive outcomes to the relationship. I know when I’m having a hard time if someone can respond to me with love and kindness instead of getting irritated that I’m being snappy or whatever it is, it just feels better. 

These are just like little shifts that can make such a huge difference in our connection with our people.

PAM: Okay, so two things. Number one, yes, understanding when it’s a much sharper kind of bid for connection back to then it’s just little reminders to help us process and move through.

For me, it helps to remember that, okay, this is much more about them than it is about me. Something’s up, something’s frustrating, and if I can turn toward that and help them move through it, then that is relationship building. And then the piece you said Erika, about, just for a while, especially if we’re feeling disconnected, assume that everything is a bid for connection is brilliant. 

And then the following through piece, right? Because that’s where the trust is built. It’s not a dismissive statement when, maybe we connect, we’re excited about it. And we’ll be able to come when we’re finished. This thing, like narrating what’s going on and following through with that is again, connecting.

Because that builds trust. It doesn’t need to be immediate, but that you can trust what I say. You can trust that I will follow through or I will come and say, oh, this thing came up and, but just keep following through. So keep responding to the bids, keep following through, and then the narrating piece.

When we can’t turn toward it, in that moment, we can still make it a connecting moment. We can still look them in the eyes, unless we’re using a knife, but we can stop. Just stop cutting for a second. Because sometimes we can get so in our head and we’re wanting to, we’ve got this task that we’re doing and we’re wanting to finish it.

But taking that moment, if that relationship is a priority, that can help us remember and remind ourselves, yeah, this is something that I want to do and life is not a race. I don’t need to be completely focused on one thing to the detriment of everything else.

And then switch. It just helps me with so many layers of moments in the day.

ANNA: I love it as a trust building piece, right? That this is how we do it. Because it’s work to build trust. Trust, and especially if it’s been broken or there’s been some kind of a rupture, this is such a great way to build that trust, to build that rapport.

But I really loved, oh no, did I just lose it? I may have lost it, but it was about… I did. I lost it. I’m sorry. I’m gonna come back ’cause it was important. I’m going to get it again.

ERIKA: Okay. One thing that popped into my head was that sometimes, especially when I had little kids, their request for help could also be an indication that something about the environment is making it difficult for them to do the thing.

So even though this is not related to bids for connection, I wanted to mention it, just because it can be draining when kids are asking us for things all day, every day. And so I think it’s both like I’m always going to want to turn towards, but maybe part of what I’m turning towards is with curiosity to figure out is there a reason why getting water is hard for them?

And trying to make those changes in the environment so that they’re feeling like things are doable for them if they’re wanting to do it. And so maybe they’re asking you for water all the time, but it’s because the fridge squirted water on them once and now they’re afraid to use it.

There could be any number of reasons for an individual person. And so, figuring out a solution for that, being available, being curious, turning towards them, but then also digging a little deeper. I feel like that helps strengthen our connection and then also helps empower them if there are those kinds of things that are trickier.

ANNA: Yeah, I mean I think that really changes, really enhances the connection, right? Because if it is a problem, something happens, you tuning in and showing them they are important to me. I want to understand why this is feeling hard. Is there something I can do that feels really connecting? 

But I did remember what I was going to say, which was when you were saying to look at everything as a bid for connection.

What I think is so fun about that is we can kind of get in our head, or maybe it’s just me, but I think it happens to other people where we feel like they’re trying to thwart us, or why is everybody making everything so difficult? Why are there so many demands on me? Why does it have to be me? 

And that’s about me, obviously. What’s my capacity in that moment, but when I can change it to, they’re not trying to thwart me. They actually want to connect with me, and maybe I’ve made that hard because I’ve been busy doing other things, and so they’re getting a little grumpy and trying a couple different things, playing around with ways they can connect, but it has such a different energy to think, I don’t need to be exasperated here. 

This is somebody I love and they’re wanting to connect with me, and gosh, I’m going to take this opportunity to sit down and help them tie their shoes, even though they can tie their shoes. Or I’m going to get them that glass of water because I can use it as time for me to calm down and get a glass of water and then come back and give it to them.

And so, I love that reframe. I think it can really help us when we get caught in our head thinking people are trying to thwart me. It can really help me just calm down and remember, actually these are people that I love and they want to connect with me and I want to connect with them. And yes, maybe we’re having a difficult day or we’re all at low capacity. And that’s okay.

I love the narration reminder. Again, if we can narrate a little bit more about that, it helps. So, the bids for connections are not always smooth and perfect, you know? But they’re there. And when we look at them through that lens, I feel like we’re looking at the people around us with love.

PAM: Yeah, I love that. And there was another piece too, as you were talking there, feeling all these bids coming in, bids coming in. And also remember that we can put out bids for connection as well. The thing that helps me anyway, when I think of it that way, through that lens is like, I am lightly putting out these bids, and for me it just helps not to have expectations attached to them.

It’s just so handy and then handy and helpful for me to even notice like we’re talking about that capacity piece and feeling overwhelmed. We too get to notice when we might like to connect with somebody else when we’re in a space where it’s like, it would be nice to just go chat with somebody.

Even change where my head is right now because maybe I’m having a hard time. Getting out of something that I was super focused on, et cetera, something like that. So to remember that it’s a tool that I can use as well is super helpful and helpful for me too when I know that I’m actively wanting to do that, to take that moment to see through the eyes of the person I’m wanting to connect with.

Come to them because the goal is the connection. I’m not trying to accomplish anything in particular, other than that connection. So, if I’m feeling a little disconnected from my kids, it’s not inviting them to come do something that I like to do.

My bid for connection can be to come and join in what they’re doing, because that’s what I’m looking for. I’m looking for the connection, and the easiest way to do that is to join somebody in what they’re already doing. Or offering up something that we enjoy doing together, et cetera, so that it’s about the connection, not about me per se.

That was always a very useful kind of mindset shift for me.

ERIKA: I love that it feels kind of like reframing all of that stuff coming at us in such a way that then you can feel almost excited about it. Because it’s  going to build my relationship with them. This is something I can use to increase our connection.

So, yeah. I love that.

ANNA: Yeah. I love that. And really loved Pam, you talking about us putting bids out and I think one of the things of just recognizing this whole idea, because we do it almost unconsciously, right? Where we’re needing connection, we’re stuck in something and we do the, can you get me some water or can you do X, and maybe our partner’s like, uh, okay, but you’re next to the kitchen.

And so what has been helpful for me, and this goes back to narration. Is to start using more clear language about it. Like, Hey, I’m just needing to be taken care of for a minute. I’ve had a really hard call, or something’s been going on. And what’s interesting about that is it can help give everybody that language.

So it’s not unusual to just say, you know what? I just need to snuggle on the couch, or I just need your help with this or I need this. And so it’s interesting to think that we take something that’s kind of subconscious and we can bring it into the conscious with that narration and it really changes things.

And so, I love that piece that you’re talking about, being aware of our own bids for connection as well. 

Okay, this was fun and I think everybody will be going, ding, ding, ding. There’s lots of things to think about in a new lens, to look around the house and into your relationships. I’m excited about that. 

Thank you so much to the two of you for joining me today and for everyone listening, and again, I would love to invite you to check out the Living Joyfully Network and just join the conversation because it’s so much fun. See you next time!

This week, we share a conversation that Pam had with Roya Dedeaux in 2021, diving into her book, Connect with Courage. Roya is a grown unschooler, a marriage and family therapist, and an unschooling mom of three, so she has lots of experience to draw from as she considers how children learn and thrive.

In her book, Roya describes the many benefits of supporting our children’s interests and the strong connections between parent and child that those positive interactions cultivate. She also details nineteen different barriers that can arise and walks readers through ways to find solutions. In their conversation, Pam and Roya talked about two of these barriers and how so much of it is our inner, emotional work to do to move past our fears and to a place of connection with our kids.

The conversation was energizing! Connect with Courage contains some powerful, life-changing ideas. We hope you enjoy the conversation!

As a quick refresher, can you share with us a bit about you and your family? What is everybody interested in right now?

I’m thrilled to have recently published your book, Connect with Courage: Practical Ways to Release Fear and Find Joy in the Places Your Children Take You. I really love the book, and I think it may well be life-changing for many parents. Let’s start off with this: why is the connection between parent and child so important?

When it comes to connecting with our kids through supporting their interests and passions, lots of things can get in our way! And that’s where our work as parents comes in, which is why the many exercises you’ve included to walk parents through these challenges are so helpful. In the book you work through nineteen common barriers, and I thought we could touch on a couple of them here. First, let’s dive into “I don’t understand why they enjoy it.” How can a parent work through that challenge?

Another barrier I hear parents complaining about pretty regularly, especially with younger kids, is that the thing their child likes to do is messy. There are a couple of aspects to that, aren’t there?

What do you love most about your unschooling lives right now?

The Living Joyfully Shop – books, courses, including Four Pillars of Unschooling and Navigating Conflict, coaching calls, and more!

Roya’s book, Connect with Courage

Roya’s earlier podcast episode, Growing Up Unschooling with Roya Dedeaux

Roya’s website and Instagram

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. This month, we’re talking about seasons—in unschooling and in life. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

Listen to our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

PAM: Welcome! I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca and today I’m here with Roya Dedeaux. Hi, Roya!

ROYA: Hello, hello! How are you, Pam? 

PAM: I am very well. Thank you. And, Roya, you were first on the podcast back in 2016, right? We did a Growing Up Unschooling episode, and now I’m very excited to have you back to talk about your new book Connect with Courage. So, to get us started, I thought a refresher would be great.

ROYA: Yeah, absolutely. The first thing though, I have to say, is thank you for publishing my book! That’s kind of a big deal and I really, really appreciate not only the time that you spent on it and the editing and the publishing, but also the esteemed company I’m in. It’s very exciting to be up on that list. So, thank you, Pam.

PAM: Oh, it was my pleasure. I love this book. I’m so excited to actually talk about it with you!

ROYA: So, we are in an interesting transition phase. I’m just coming back from maternity leave. I have a four-month-old now, so I’ve got a seven-year-old, a four-year-old, and a four-month-old. And we’ve been diving into the world of finding babysitters and getting me back to work.

As part of that maternity leave, we were able to go on a big, grand, 10-national-park RV trip, which was really exciting. We went to Dinosaur National Monument, because my son is super into everything dinosaur, wants to be a paleontologist. We also moved about five months ago and so, now we have a pool and a trampoline and a new neighborhood to explore.

So, it feels like a lot of big muscle movement summer days down here in Southern California, lots of swimming, lots of trampoline, gardening, cooking things and taking them to our neighbors, paying attention to all the birds. We know all the bird drama in the neighborhood. And we downloaded the Audubon app to watch birds. So, some of you listening might be in rural places where this isn’t a shocker, but I’m in Southern California, very close to LA, and so, it’s really fun to have a barn owl swoop down while we’re eating dinner. Lots of that kind of noticing happening.

PAM: Oh, that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. So, dinosaurs, that’s a big thing. Paleontologist in action right now.

ROYA: Oh yes. And he got to touch actual dinosaur fossils and talk to very knowledgeable rangers and we saw bison and went in a cave and, oh, it was just an amazing, amazing trip.

So, my kids are just living their best little lives. And then, I am up to my eyebrows in getting back into the world of therapy and I also make and sell jewelry and I run online bazaars. So, I’ve been occupied with that in the best way possible. And then, of course, talking about selling the book and making a whole bunch of journals and publishing those on Amazon.

PAM: Yeah. Yeah. We’ll definitely put links to that stuff in the show notes, as well. So, let’s dive into your book. As I said, I am really thrilled to have been able to publish that. It was so much fun working with you on that, back and forth, and back and forth, for what seemed like many months as we both had life things come up. It was awesome. That’s one of the reasons why I do love working with unschooling parents, because we have our priorities and yet when we have the time, we dive in deep. It is a lot of fun.

But anyway, I think your book will definitely be very life-changing for a lot of parents. In fact, you don’t even specifically talk about unschooling in it, but why I was so excited to work with it is because so much of deschooling is our work to do, parents’ work to do, as they’re exploring what unschooling is and how to just cultivate that lifestyle, that learning lifestyle in their family. So, this book just meshes so well with that whole process.

ROYA: I’m the oldest of three girls. They’re three and then six years younger than me. And so, I finished out fourth grade in traditional public school and then I never went back to fifth grade. My parents decided not to send us back. There were lots of small reasons, but it boils down to they saw that our interest in things and our curiosity was being stamped out, whether by being forced to learn things we didn’t want to learn about, or by honestly other kids making fun of us that we wanted to spend all summer reading and that kind of thing. They just didn’t send us back to school. I never went back to fifth. Roxana never went back to second. And then I don’t think Rosie ever went to anything other than preschool.

So, then we just did all the things we were interested in and we didn’t have a lack of that. I’m a combination of a deep diver and a dabbler. I dive in completely, totally all the way into something for like three weeks and then I go onto the next thing. And we were busy. We were on swim teams and in Shakespeare theater groups, and I was really involved in ceramics, and we did a lot of theater, and we did Girl Scouts and soccer. We did a lot of things. And that’s just the outside activities. I was also passionately interested in candle making and crazy quilt sewing and journaling and photography and all the do-at-home kind of things.

My parents were phenomenal at supporting our interests and when I give parents examples now, I almost always can think back to an example of my parents helping me. So, I would be on hour 14 of making a zine, for example, in my bedroom. And I’d have just paper scattered out all around me and my mom would crack the door open. I’d be listening to the same Ani DiFranco CD on repeat for 24 hours. And my mom would crack the door open and slide a plate of food across and just be like, “Hi. How are you doing? Okay,” and leave. And I remember just being able to settle into that, like, this is what I’m doing and it’s what I love to do and it’s okay with everybody else.

And so, I grew up with that very solid knowledge that what I’m interested in is valuable. They didn’t interrupt me. They bragged about the things I was doing to other people, even if there were no trophies for the zines I was making. There was no quantifiable success marker.

PAM: Reward.

ROYA: Right, right. So, it wasn’t like, “Guess what? She got first in the amount of time she spent cutting pieces of paper up on her bedroom floor.” But I knew for a fact that they valued the choices I was making. So, I had that experience.

And then, fast forward, I go and I get a degree in recreation and leisure studies, which I used to tell people was like majoring in Girl Scouts. There’s the recreational activity side, like event management and outdoor recreation piece. But there’s also a philosophy side, the leisure philosophy, why play is important, why free time is important. All of those things that lined up so clearly with why we unschooled.

And so, that just felt like, “Oh! There’s language for this.” Other people have been studying this, not in the guise of doing away with school. It’s so strange to me that people don’t make that connection. But given all of these parameters, this thing is also important. I was finding language. I discovered the world of positive psychology. I went back to school to get my master’s in counseling, thinking one day I would have an art therapy camp.

And in that program, I discovered positive psychology and the theory of flow and Dr. Seligman and all of the actual research behind why play is important and why uninterrupted time is important and why settling in and being able to spend hours and hours of time on an interest is good for us.

So again, I was able to put language to these things that I knew from my upbringing and watching my sisters and all of our unschooling friends. And then I started private practice. And although at this point, the majority of my practice, I’d say is homeschoolers/unschoolers, that wasn’t always the case, because at the beginning I was just casting a wide net, putting myself out there in Psychology Today, please come and see me as a therapist. And I was working in community mental health as well and even with some court-ordered families, things like that.

And so, in my happy unschooling bubble, I had seen the positive side of supporting kids’ interests and what that can do for relationships and families. And then as I ventured out into the world of counseling, I saw the opposite and I saw all the places where struggles between parents and their kids could be traced back to not feeling valued or their interests being disparaged.

And I saw people with addiction issues who, when we dug deeper, it felt like they’d never felt a connection to something bigger than themselves. They never felt like they had purpose or drive. And I saw self-worth issues and self-esteem issues, because when they were younger, all of the important adults in their life told them that what they were interested in didn’t matter. And they internalized, “If I love this thing and I’m wrong for loving it, and then I must be wrong.” And then straight up just terrible, awful, neglectful, abusive situations where parents were insulting their children and disparaging their interests and it caused a lot of barriers.

So, in both places, I was seeing the importance here of a simple (but not always easy) solution to a lot of these things, which was when they’re young, start supporting them and support their interests. Be interested in what they’re interested in.

And so, then I started paying more attention to why is that so hard? Why do we struggle so much when a kid wants to watch hour four of that YouTube unboxing video? Why do we not want them to do that? And why do we all get all our backs up when our kids want to spend a couple more hours by Minecraft? And what are the fears and what stands in our way? And that is the book. It’s the long story, but that’s the book. It’s, this is important. Here’s why. Here’s what happens when it goes right. Here’s what happens when it goes wrong. And here are ways you can deal with those things that stand in your way. 

PAM: Oh, I love that. I love that. That’s a great overview of why it’s so valuable to connect with your kids and to support their interests and their passions and even being okay. I think it can be hard to be okay with someone who’s a deep diver for three weeks and then comes back up and that it’s something completely different. It’s like, “Well, gee. I thought you wanted to a be a photographer!” And then all of a sudden you pull back out.

ROYA: And I think that’s the unschooling piece. And yeah, I never mentioned the word homeschooling or unschooling in the book, very purposefully. But I think that’s the part where unschooling parents have a little bit of a head start.

When you’re unschooling, you’re paying so close attention to your kids, you’re watching those patterns. You’re paying attention. Are their eyes lighting up to that? What can I strew in their path? It’s an active engagement thing. And so, I think that, for a lot of unschoolers, that piece of it, they don’t have to start from the paying attention part. They start from the implementation piece.

The paying attention is knowing, okay, we’ve seen this tree before. Maybe I’m not going to sign my kid up for an 18-week intensive course, no matter how interested in it they are, because I know that in three weeks, they’re going to stop doing that. And one of the struggles I have is, we paid the money, so I want them to keep going. So, let’s not put them in that situation to start with. So, it’s that paying attention.

PAM: Yeah, yeah. Paying attention to that bigger picture.

So, the unboxing video example, right? Whatever it is, if we don’t understand why our kid is enjoying the thing, how can we work through that challenge for ourselves? Because it’s our challenge.

ROYA: It is. It’s totally our challenge.

And that’s one of the first things to do is to remember that we have however many years of messaging and bias and experience and baggage and all that stuff about that topic, perhaps, and your kid does not. Your kid comes to that thing pretty fresh.

So, we need to just remember that. I’m thinking about people who’ve been upset with their kids for loving Nerf guns, for example. You have all this whole big, giant trash bag full of, “But it’s violence and it’s this and it’s that.” And the kid is just like, “I don’t know. I like to point and shoot at things.”

So, it’s totally a different ballgame for them. So, that’s one thing I suggest to parents is try to really identify what’s your stuff and what’s theirs, because it’s probably yours. And you’re the grownup, so you have to do the work.

So, the other piece if you don’t understand, and of course there’s that we fear what we don’t understand, and often it’s about a new medium for things. We are storytellers. We are storytellers as humans and I see video game play, hours spent on YouTube or TikTok or whatever, we are still storytelling in those media. But if they’re new and if you don’t understand it, then it’s not familiar and you’re worried about all the unknown things.

So, you can make parallels. When people say, “Screen time is bad.” I require my clients that they go through and say, “Would I say the same thing of ‘paper time’? Would I say the same thing of ‘food time,’ ‘outdoor time,’ or, ‘inside time’?” And so, trying to find parallels can sometimes help you just work through some of that strange stigma that comes up in your brain.

Get to know the thing. If you’re like, “Oh my gosh. All they’re doing is they’re on TikTok.” I say this because I was up until 2:00 in the morning on TikTok, so that’s fresh. But if, “All they’re doing is TikTok. All they’re doing is TikTok,” go get on TikTok. Go see what it’s about. Go find out.

If you have an open relationship with your kid, I bet you could sit down next to them and say, “Hey, show me what you’re interested in.” So, asking them what it is about it that they love. Most of the kids I know who have a decent relationship with their parents are just absolutely dying for somebody to sit down and talk to them about the thing that they love to do.

I remember when I started at community college, I was 13 and I took a writing class. And I came home like, “Oh my gosh! This person is just going to read all my writing and talk to me about it?” It was so exciting. So, you can be that person for your kid. Sit down and listen to them talk about why that thing is so interesting to them. And if you don’t want to interrupt their time, for whatever reason, you can also sit down and just observe.

I very often ask parents to watch their kids and challenge them to make a list of 30 possible things that their kid might be getting out of whatever the activity is. And some, you might be able to see and some, you might have to go online and research or ask other people what it is. And, in that case, you might be guessing, but it’ll get the juices flowing for you to start thinking of these activities as beneficial.

Kids are not always going to get the same thing out of an activity that you think they ought to be getting to. And they’re not going to get it in the same way. I was just recording another podcast where I was talking about how I did ceramics for years and years, and I didn’t have any interest in glazing. Once I finished throwing the piece, I was done. I didn’t care about the finished product. I just wanted my hands in the clay and I very often would even give away my pieces.

I made hundreds of things and I’d give them away to other people to glaze and keep, because I was done with it. But if someone had forced me to do it, step-by-step, start to finish until it was absolutely over, and I had to pay attention to glazing and all that, I probably would have quit ceramics and it was a huge part of my life and I got a lot out of it.

Part of it is remembering that people are getting something, be assured of that. They’re getting something. If they’re choosing to spend their time there, it’s valuable in some way. Your job as the parent is to look for what that value is, remembering that it might be different than what you would get out of it and how you would get it out of it. Talk to them about it. Be a detective, look for clues, and work through your own stuff.

PAM: Yeah. Detective was what was coming to mind for me. Exactly. Because, for me, that was the fun piece. If you can start with knowing that they’re getting something out of it. Just as you said, they’re getting something. Something is drawing them to it. Something is keeping them there. And I just take it as my job as a detective, to be so curious and, “I wonder what it is!”

I love your idea of trying to come up with 30 things that it could be. I love that so much, because it can be such a wide range of things for people and we don’t even need to literally know what the one answer is, because coming up with 20 or 30 helps you realize that there are so many possibilities. There’s something. And then when we realize that, we get out of the tunnel vision of the one horrible thing that we’re thinking.

ROYA: Right. The one fear.

PAM: Yeah. Whatever our fear is, it’s like, oh, it can be so many other things. That’s just one possibility. So, now all of a sudden, it’s not this huge weight. Then we can relax some more and we can actually start kind of getting involved and participating and having fun.

ROYA: Yeah. And then it’s fun! Definitely.

I get parents who are distraught and there’s always stuff going on and I don’t want to minimize that at all, but we get so wrapped up in that one potential, fearful place, that it could be leading to this bad thing. Or it could be preventing them from success. We get so caught up in that, that we forget that this process is actually kind of a delight and it’s really fun to be a part of that. And parenting is kind of a sweet gig if you can look at it in that respect.

I just think about not just my kids, the places that we’ve been able to travel to, and the things that I’ve learned, and the projects we’ve done, and the joy that I get in them opening up and sharing their interests with me, is amazing. But also with my clients, I can’t even tell you the number of new TV shows I’ve watched, the number of awesome conversations I’ve had, the number of things I’ve tried, the number of connections they’ve made. It’s so fun to connect with people on that level.

And it’s fun to watch, too, because if you can get past the fear, and especially for parents who are worried about their kids spending all their time doing something, your kids are expert level at that thing. And it is really, really cool to talk to people who are experts about the subject that they’re expert in. And what I want for parents is to be able to get that fearful voice out of the way so they can enjoy that and talk to their expert level kids who are invested and passionate and know the language and can teach you about whole new worlds.

PAM: I know. I always felt like I was a student of life of my children. If I could get out of my head, that fear, that judgment piece, if I could get out and just be in the moment with them, oh my gosh. That is how I got experience with the lifestyle. And then, like you said, you bring that curiosity about the world and about other people and what they find interesting, you bring that with you to all the other people in your life and your world gets so much bigger.

Literally, I joined TikTok a few weeks ago. My kids are adults now, but it’s fun. The world is fun. And my daughter was starting to post on TikTok and I’m like, “I’d love to see what you’re making!” I’m making an account. I’m exploring. It’s fun. And when you can come with that lens of fun and curiosity, the world is just so much bigger, I think. And we can connect. You have now a way to connect with people, rather than saying, “You guys are all adults. I’m older now. I’m in my fifties. I don’t want to learn any new tech.” No. That’s not the way I want to go through my life.

ROYA: Right.

And ironically, the fear is usually about a safety thing, that that thing is gonna end up hurting my kid in some way. But connecting with your kid, every single study, homeschooling-related or not, shows that engagement with parents is the thing that helps keep people safe into adulthood.

It helps with substance use and it helps with risky situations and peer pressure and all of these things that we’re scared of for our kids, being able to have open communication with your parents is the thing that keeps you safe. And that’s not going to happen if you don’t find places to connect with them.

Sitting on the couch and watching YouTube, I mean, physically they’re safe. They might be seeing something that maybe I would choose not to let them be exposed to at a young age or whatever, but it’s okay to think dangerous thoughts. Just because you see it or think it doesn’t mean you are it or will go do it. And that gives you the opportunity to have those conversations and the support that you give when you value their choices pays off so much later on when physical safety is what we’re talking about. So, it’s not just the fun piece and the exciting piece and just getting along better day to day.

I get a lot of parents who come to me who talk about the struggle and the battle, and those kinds of words with their kids. So, not only is it just the light and fun and playful side, but it’s also actually safer and better for their success later when it is more serious and all the other pieces, too.

We learn better when we can be creative and we learn better when we’re playful. We learn better when things are not being forced upon us. And we can take what we learn, even if it’s on Minecraft, even if it’s in a video game, the things that we learn there generalize to other things. And I think that’s a big part that parents are scared of. When they don’t understand why a kid wants to spend their time doing this thing, they’re also worried about all the other things they might be missing out on.

And so, to that, I just like to remind parents, too, that just because you learned teamwork on a soccer field doesn’t mean you don’t use those things in other places. Just because you learned strategic thinking through Minecraft doesn’t mean you don’t use those abilities in other places.

And far more important is learning how you learn and, again, keeping that relationship really open with your parents and then it’ll take you other places. But parents get like, “But right now it’s not working like that!” And you gotta take a big breath.

PAM: Yeah.

And you learn better when you feel safe. Because when you’re feeling safe in your environment, in your home environment, or with your family, you feel much safer to explore, to try things that you might not have tried before, because you’re less fearful of being judged, being talked down to, being told to stop. And when you’re comfortable, you actually feel much safer to explore and learn.

When you’re fearful and you don’t know what they’re learning, coming up with all the different things that it could be, connecting with them helps you get a good idea of what it is that they’re enjoying. So, not only can you help by bringing in new things that are similar, like if they’re really enjoying the strategic aspect, if that’s what they’re loving in Minecraft is they’re loving figuring out strategy, somebody else is loving building things. If you just say, “They’re playing Minecraft for hours,” you don’t know what it is that they’re loving. And they could be very different things that you can bring into their world depending on what it is that they love.

So, as you’re building that connection, because they feel seen and heard from you when you’re starting to see and ask them those questions. “Oh! What strategy did you use for this? Oh, how did you build that thing?” depending on what it is, they’re feeling seen, they’re feeling heard, they’re feeling connected with you. They’re building trust in you. And that is where you can help them when you start coming up on these things that you’re fearful about. Whether it’s time or whatever that safety aspect is for you, or where they’re feeling uncomfortable. They feel connected with you to have those conversations.

ROYA: Right, right. And you just know them better and you know if they start to look around for what’s the next thing, “I don’t want to do just this,” then you can say, “Oh. Hey, I have this blah, blah, blah and it kind of reminded me of that thing.” Or strew it quietly or whatever it is that that you’re going to do with it.

But then, yeah, you’ve got things up to bat that are in line with what it is that they’re interested in already. And again, when we look at it from just our perspective, we can miss the mark on that a lot.

I was thinking about how my sister was really into baking and she was doing a bake around-the-world thing. And I made some comment about, “Oh, you should make cookies for the baby shower I’m hosting!” And I’m like, “I’ll pay you.” She goes, “I don’t want to decorate anything.” That was not at all what she wanted. It was not about decorating.

And so, for her, it was just a pathway to learning about all these different places around the world. If she were my kid, that’s a really different world that opens than cooking and cake decorating. It’s very different. Like, I’m going to go in that direction, not this other one. And I would never have known that if I had not talked to her about it and asked her about it and been open to it.

PAM: Exactly.

And because we might not know, it doesn’t mean not offering up things or sharing ideas or thoughts, because that’s how you learned. You said, “Oh, hey, what about this?” But your connection and the trust, she was comfortable saying, “No, you know what? That’s not something that would be interesting to me.” So, that’s how we learn more. It’s not about stepping back and just observing and seeing kind of where things go and trying to put the picture together in our heads. It’s a dance of all of those things. We also connect.

If your comments are always met with a “no”, or your suggestions are almost always met with a “no”, it’s like, “Hmm, I’m really off base here. I’m going to take a little bit more time to observe and figure it out.” Because then sometimes it can be our own baggage that we’re just not seeing a bigger picture. Or we have an expectation of where we think it should go. So, then we start trying to plant seeds that pull them in that direction. And so, then they’re always “no”.

But engaging and just trying to have those conversations just gives us more information and helps us learn about each other better.

ROYA: I think if parents are trying to engage and they’re being met with resistance, that’s a pretty good sign that in some way, even if it was an inadvertent, your kid has been feeling a little judged or they’re feeling protective of their interest and their time in that interest.

And so, for those parents, I do suggest trying to switch your language around, trying to make objective statements about things and not subjective ones. I do a lot of art in my therapy practice. And if someone draws something with all the colors and it’s filling up the page, if I say, “Wow, that looks chaotic,” that is all about my interpretation. For them, that might be like busy and bright and dynamic. And so, what I say is, “I noticed you used all of the colors,” and then they can fill in the gaps about what that means. But if I start with the assumption, then that’s not about them. That’s about me.

And so, for parents who are being met with resistance, I think it’s the same thing, where you can jump in, sit next to them, and make an observation as opposed to passing a judgment, even a kind judgment. “You chose that character three or four times.” Then you can leave that up to them to say, “Oh yeah, it’s my favorite one.”

Now you know something. And now you have just one more little bit of a bridge. I use the metaphor of bridges a lot. And I think that every time you can make that kind of connection with your kid, it’s like a rope bridge. That’s one piece of fiber that’s been extended. And then the more of those fibers you get, they twist together until it’s stronger and stronger and stronger. And then, you’re just running across, back and forth together. And you can make those kinds of little fibery bridges out all over the place.

What you don’t want to do is go through with scissors and cut those connections. So, making the observational statement or showing in other ways. It doesn’t have to all be talk. If you think of those love languages, show that you support them without making them discuss their thing. Sit next to them. Read your own book while they’re there. Bring them a blanket if it’s cold. Bring them some snacks. Take your noisy conversation somewhere else, help them clean up something that needs cleaning up if they could benefit from that, if they want that help. There are actions that you can take. It doesn’t all have to be interrogation-based.

PAM: No, I love that. One of the kids wasn’t big into words, but you can show so much through your actions and the choices.

I love the one that so many people don’t think of is taking your loud conversations to another space or something, just respecting their space, showing respect for the things that they’re choosing to do and the way that they do them, but just consideration as another human being in the world. You might be hungry, you might be thirsty, you might want some quiet, even taking siblings somewhere else to play when they look like they’re really focused on something that they’re doing, there is so much that we can do that also doesn’t need words. 

ROYA: Yeah. And I think we get this bizarre message from the mainstream world that we’re not supposed to factor kids in when we’re talking about our resource allocation. That it’s only adults who are supposed to decide where we spend the money, how we spend our time, what the house is set up like, all of these resources in our lives.

But where we choose to put our resources says a lot about what we value. And that’s really what it is. It’s a symbol of our values. And so, if you’re trying to value your child and their interests and what is important to them, then you’ve got to take a really good look at where you’re spending your resources. Are you factoring them in and are you prioritizing them? And also, making rent and stuff. But I think a lot of families exclude their kids’ interests from the priority list. And very often, if we can work through the emotional side of things, then we can find the logistical pieces of where we’re putting our finite resources. We can look at that creatively. We can think about that.

And this can also be a game. When you get started looking at things divergently, you keep going. It snowballs. So, your dining room doesn’t have to be a dining room and you can look at different ways to use space and different ways to get your kids access to stuff. And that can be fun and, if you involve them in that process, then they can trust that you are trying to do that for them. And so, when it is a “no”, they understand it’s a “no”. And you all can help come up with creative solutions to hopefully find the “yes”.

PAM: I love that. And I just found that so fun when I could open up what felt like so many constraints and prioritize their needs. Because yeah, when you first come to it, it doesn’t even occur to you to think about it. But when I opened to unschooling and thought of that, it’s like, well, of course. And then it was just so much fun to play with. All of a sudden, rooms and what their functions were and how we used our spaces and the things we chose to bring into our lives and the places we chose, they are so capable of being involved in all of those conversations.

And like you said, when that trust builds, they really do come to realize that when things aren’t going to work out maybe for now, or we have to wait a little bit, or whatever, they understand it’s not about them. It’s not a judgment about them at all. It’s us working together and something’s in the way right now, but we’re not going to lose it. When we’ve built that trust, they understand that. They know it might just be waiting. It might not look exactly the way they envisioned it, all those pieces, but we’re all doing our best. We just trust that we’re all doing our best and working together.

ROYA: And side bonus, all those things are excellent learning opportunities. So, it’s a win-win.

PAM: And they’re skills that are lifelong useful for everyone. I mean, we’re learning them and figuring them out now, but our kids are just getting that head start. They really can take those things and work with them and play around and then they’re bringing them with them.

It sounds simple. It sounds simple, but is that how you feel right now, Roya? Things are a little chaotic right now? There are a couple of aspects to it, aren’t there?

ROYA: There really are. And that’s the thing, too, that’s hard. And it was actually part of the challenge for me writing the book was I felt like I went back and forth a lot between the philosophy of things and then the, “Put your stuff in tubs,” the practical side of stuff. And that’s part of it is I think if the attitude is there and your own emotional barriers are dealt with, then you can think creatively about the practical solutions.

I think there’s a lot of people who want me to just tell them, here’s the one magical solution or way to just switch how you think about it. But it’s not just that. It’s a dance. And it matters who’s in your house. That’s part of it.

In the house I grew up in, the people cared about things differently than the house I live in now and the people I live with now. And so, part of it is factoring everybody in. The conversation about the resources and privilege that you have matters, too.

I have to say, it’s a lot easier now. We moved to a place with a lot more space and I have a door I can close and I can leave a whole desk full of things. Because I don’t want to have to clean up my earring stuff every time. I keep working on it and keep going. And so, that was an issue both logistically, because I have little kids who would get into it and it’s not my husband’s favorite thing to have every single surface covered in play.

And so, the fact that I have a room now with a door that closes is really helpful. I’m incredibly privileged to have that space. However, even in a place where I didn’t have that kind of space, there were creative things we could do. I used big tub lids a lot to work on, so I could pick it up and move it somewhere else or put it high on a shelf or cover it or things like that.

But again, the desire for harmony in my life was there, which helped come up with those creative solutions. Well, I guess what I have to say, it depends on where you’re at in your parenting journey, too. So, glean from this what do you will, listeners, because you’re all going to be in different places.

One thing to remember is that one person’s mess is not another person’s mess, right? If you can get down and look at it from the perspective of the kid in question, you might see things differently.

I think back to doing those zines, someone else might look at that and see all these scraps of trash all over. But those scraps of trash were the material I was going to glue back together and use and produce from. So, if someone had come in and talked about it as though it were trash, I would have been furious. And if someone had come in and just swept it all up and cleaned it up, that would have been rough.

Also, as I sat and worked, I sorted things. It wasn’t like I knew exactly what I wanted to cut and paste. It was trial and error and experimentation all over my floor and it would form something. And so, if I had to clean it up every 20 minutes, I would not have been able to make those connections. So, it was a magical little world of paper scraps down there.

And I’m looking at my desk right now and it looks a lot like that, but it’s now pieces of clay. And I’m working on canes now and I’m saving all the little scraps, because they’re going to be turned into something later. And one thing is going to lead to that and that and that. So, if someone came in and just swept it all away or made me clean up in between sessions, that would really, really hurt my creative process. So, one big thing is, it’s not just trash. It’s not just a mess. There are worlds in there.

The other thing is, everybody lives where you live. Everybody, I think, gets to be a factor in living in a happy, healthy, harmonious, rich unschooling life.

Mess really impacts my husband, for example. I think, for him, looking at a cluttered surface is a lot, for me, like hearing somebody chew. It makes me do that little neck twitchy thing. And it’s not helpful for our harmonious life for him to come home and have a mess everywhere. And so, we’ve had to have a lot of conversations and a lot of figuring out.

And so, I know that there are particular surfaces in our house that make a big impact. So, I try to make sure that those things, at least, get swept into tubs and put somewhere else for me to put away. I know that there might be days where it’s better to get the kids up and out so we don’t have a day where we’re making a lot of mess inside. There are different things to do.

For me, putting everything that a project needs in a tub is really helpful. I have probably a hundred pairs of scissors in this house, because so many different projects need a pair of scissors. I don’t have a scissor tub. I have a pair of scissors in every project tub, so that everything can just get stuck back in that tub and pulled back out again. Clear boxes, things with labels, doing stuff on a tarp, so you can pick it all up. I sweep everything, toys, dust, trash, I sweep everything and then the kids and I go through the pile and pull up the things we don’t want to get thrown away.

There’s a lot of that type of brainstorming. But our goal as a family is for the kids to have great tactile experiences and for nobody to want to bite somebody else at the end of the day. It’s a dance. It’s a combination. It’s valuing everybody. And it’s talking about how we can do this.

And maybe that particularly messy thing doesn’t have to happen right this moment. Maybe there’s a day that’s better for it. Or maybe there’s a place. We designate a place in the backyard that’s the mud pit. That’s the mud pit. And we’ve just always said that doesn’t have to get cleaned up ever. That’s the place for it. And now we’re good, because we have a designated spot. So, just conversations, lots of conversations about how do we all function together and live together.

Reframing, is it really mess? Remembering that mess is part of the creative process and that it’s actually healthy for our brains to make connections across things. So, it’s good for us to not just play with Legos, but to play with Legos and My Little Pony and Hatchimals and crayons and clay and sand all together.

Having those kinds of connections, tactilely and across subjects and interests, it develops healthy brains. And so, if you’re hovering over all the time and you’re saying, “Okay, oh, did you stop playing with that Hot Wheel car? Okay, we’re going to put it away now,” it actually does that scissor thing. It cuts off the connections before they can form.

So, as much as you can, if you can create a space where that can happen or create a way where you can spend most of your time doing that and the cleanup is minimal, go for it. I think it’s healthier.

I run across a fair number of parents who are desirous of living a minimalist lifestyle. And while I think that can be great for you as the adult, I definitely want to impress upon you that not everybody wants to throw away all their things and things are important to people and some of your kids are going to be curators.

I have a curator child. I have a collector child. He likes to collect things and sometimes he displays them and sometimes we leave them in a box for a year and he digs them out later and goes, “Oh, look at all those!” And then he’s interested in it again. So, we do a lot of tubs with a lot of labels and sometimes we rotate them and sometimes they’re all out on the floor all at once. And if I can pick them up, cool. I can help them with that. That’s the other piece is giving the gift of that to your kids can be a sweet and generous, wonderful thing. I have a lot of thoughts about mess too. It’s why I wrote a book.

PAM: I just want to encourage people. All the stuff we’ve been talking about, it’s in there. It’s in there! I love your book so much. All these things are connected, right?

ROYA: They are. And so, when I work with an individual family, we could come up with 50 solutions off the top of my head to that particular thing. But none of them are going to work lastingly or lovingly, unless you deal with the emotional side of it. Why does it bother you? What does it bring up for you? What’s your attitude related to it? Got to do that part first.

PAM: Yeah. Yep. And that is the beauty of working through the exercises. There are so many exercises in your book and you can skip around, too. “What’s the one that’s rubbing on me right now?” And I can go and I can dig into that.

You don’t need to dig into everything all at once, because it won’t mean as much. It is more helpful to dig into the thing that’s rubbing right now, because then it’s top of mind for you, and then you can really get into it and it’s helpful in the end.

Okay. We can talk about that forever. But, before we go, there will be links to the blog and links to all sorts of things in the show notes. Everybody can find that stuff there.

ROYA: You know what I’ve been thinking about lately is how grateful I am for all of the people who love my kids. And we got them through our unschooling life. I’m just thinking about the number of random things we get in the mail from other unschooling families who know and love our children.

My seven-year-old son’s favorite show right now is Brooklyn Nine-Nine and he loves it. And it’s like our special time. I love that show, too. And so, we try to get in an episode every day and he started talking about himself in the third person because of Terry on the show and it’s been leading to so many fun places and conversations.

And the other day, a friend of ours, and by the way, of course their youngest kid is like 21. So, all ages are all loving on our kids. And they sent us a couple of Brooklyn Nine-Nine t-shirts just out of the clear blue sky. And we have another set of friends who stumbled upon some pretty cool little dinosaur, dig the fossil out of the egg thing. And they sent those to us. Or they send us TikToks for the kids. “Oh, I know Wyatt’s interested in this. Oh, this reminded me of Lilyanne,” and they would not have those connections if we hadn’t been going to unschooling conferences, if we were not in a group of people who valued supporting their interests and seeing the connections that the kids are making.

And so, I think, yeah, right now I am absolutely just so grateful for the other humans who see and value the connections that the kids are making and their interests. I love them.

PAM: That is so beautiful. Yeah. That community. Especially since you’ve grown up unschooling yourself, unschooling conferences. The connections that you make with other families who value their kids, their connection with their kids, their relationships. And like you said, grown kids. It doesn’t matter. That relationship, that connection is there for life. It becomes a lifestyle, not something that ends once our kids are 18 and now it’s like, oh, off you go. Yeah. No, that’s beautiful.

Thank you so much, Roya. It was so much fun to chat with you about your book.

ROYA: Of course, Pam!

PAM: I am so excited for people to get that in their hands and just dive in, because that is really the most important thing. When you’re choosing unschooling is not just to stop there, that deschooling aspect, that work that we can do so that we can cultivate those strong relationships, those strong connections with our kids, because that is a foundation for our lives, to move forward.

ROYA: And one of the interesting things for me, too, even though I grew up unschooling, grew up talking about unschooling, my mom spoke and talked about unschooling all the time. But now that I have kids, it’s so interesting to me, too, that at every new age and stage, I feel like I have to have some measure of that all over again. That when they’re three, I got it. We’re good. I figured this stuff out. And then they hit the next stage and I’m like, oh, it’s striking me in a different way, because I’m a different person and they are a different person.

And so, I think that’s part of it, too, with the book. I wrote it hopefully for some replay value, as well, that you can keep going back, because different parts of it will hit you harder and different barriers will come up at different stages of life.

And, so when people say, “I did the deschooling,” I’m like, well. Did you?

PAM: I’m glad you’re feeling really good right now, but exactly. Things are going to happen from the outside. Your kids are going to hit different ages and things will come up. Things will bubble up. There’s kind of like the bulk of it, but the bulk of deschooling gets you to the place to realize, “Oh, this isn’t really going to end ever.”

ROYA: Right, because we’re always going to experience it differently, too, because it’s not like we’re static and things are happening with them. We’re part of this process, as well. So, the book is geared towards parents of kids of all ages. You can pick it up and flip through the barriers and find the one that speaks to you the most.

If you buy the book, there’s a workbook that you can actually write in and stuff that you can download and you can get access to that. And then, I’ve been doing these journals that if you go on my website or an Amazon, too, there are places to write and prompts for you to keep exploring and keep exploring. And then, I also have my practice. So again, if anybody is finding that they need some extra one-on-one time, I’m here.

PAM: That’s lovely. That’s wonderful. We will have links to all that, too. Thank you so much, Roya. Have a wonderful day!

ROYA: Thank you, Pam. I appreciate you and the work that you do so much.

PAM: Oh, thank you. Talk to you soon. Bye!

ROYA: Bye.