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Failing At Gender
We delve into the complex interplay between church teachings, gender identity, and masculinity. As we explore the subtle (or not so subtle!) messages received in church environments regarding gender roles, we look at the impact of gender segregation and the challenges of navigating masculinity in a world filled with conflicting expectations. Shannon’s book, “No One Taught Me How to Be a Man,” comes out April 15, so this conversation emphasizes the importance of redefining masculinity and gender identity. We are advocating for a more inclusive understanding of gender that allows for personal expression and self-discovery not confined, or defined, by Christian ideas of what are masculine or feminine.
Takeaways
Chapters
(04:25) The Impact of Gender Segregation
(10:38) Navigating Masculinity and Expectations
(18:24) Redefining Masculinity and Gender Identity
(26:41) The Journey of Self-Discovery and Gender Expression
Resources:
If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology
This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we are gonna be talking about church and theology and gender. So exciting, exciting things. We’re getting ready for the release of my new book. No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, but a trans man’s experience reveals about masculinity.
(50s):
It comes out in just two weeks from when we’re recording this on April 15th. So it, it’s available for pre-order now if you wanna get that. And so we thought it would be a good time to talk about church and gender and all of those fun things. So Brian, I’m curious for you, like when you think about church and gender, especially growing up, what kind of messages did you get? I, I, I feel like I know your ans my your answer to this of like, the messages that you got at home were very different from the messages that you got at church. Yeah. And so I wonder if you could just talk about that a little Bit. Well, I think the messages I got at church were subtle and sneaky.
(1m 32s):
It wasn’t until, I don’t know, when I was maybe like in high school or college that my mom pointed out to me. Oh yeah. Like they start segregating Sunday school by gender starting in fifth grade. And from that point on, boys are never taught by women. Like, and the, in the group, in the groups, in the combined group settings, like a man is always teaching. And then when you have like your breakouts, it’s like men lead the men’s, the boys groups and women lead the, the girls groups. And it had just like, not occurred to me that part of the reason for that was to keep women from teaching even like 13-year-old boys.
(2m 19s):
Yeah. I just as growing up thought like, oh, like, it’s like fun to be with the other boys, like boys and boys together and girls and girls together. Like, that’s just like how it is. Even though as like a closeted gay boy, I had close friendships with people who were girls. And so like, but I, I just like, I, I never questioned what function, like gender segregated classes or small groups might have, other than it being just sort of like a positive thing. And my mom was like, oh yeah, that’s like definitely part of fourth, this theology that like, women can’t teach men including teenage boys. And that just sort of like blew my mind.
(3m 0s):
And I think that like had she not pointed that out to me, I might not have ever stopped to even think about that. Right. And I know that, like, obviously I know that sexism is a thing, but like that particular way of like the ways in which small groups Sunday schools were like leveraged subtly in, in service of like the patriarchy just totally, totally slipped my, slipped my view. And so then I, I think that that, that was sort of like my church’s approach was like a very sort of like show don’t tell. They never outright said women can’t be trusted. They’re the lesser stacks, but they definitely like the ways in which they talked about men or women in terms of like nurturing and caring and the family and men being strong and leaders and protectors.
(3m 55s):
It was all this sort of like subtle reinforcement that like, definitely like wheeled its way into us, but without having to ever say like, men should be this way and, and women should be this way. And, and one is better than the other. But like the message that you walk away with is like, well, I never saw a woman preach before. Right. Like, but I, but I did, like, I, like Susan Tawa was like the, I don’t know what her title was, but like, she like helped with music and like, she would kind of talk like she was around and like, I had, like, I had relationships with female leaders, whether they were staff people or like college volunteers, but they were always like, upon reflection, like informal leader mentorship relationships, just ’cause I like gravitated towards those people.
(4m 44s):
They like didn’t actually have any authority over me and definitely weren’t in any sort of like decision making capacity in the organization. And so that’s just like a, a snapshot of the messages that I got from church. Yeah. And I imagine too that because there was so much gender segregated space, you’re also getting messages about gender simply by being segregated. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like yeah, like that, that is also the sneaky kind of influence too. And it, it, it feels all like, like it is true, right? That sexual orientation and gender and gender identity are like two separate things.
(5m 27s):
Like, and also they’re very much like wrapped up in one another that a lot of the ways in which my, like gayness or bisexuality is policed is around gendered expectations. Right. Like, I’m not like being a man in the correct way. And a lot of the ways in which that, like, that gets seen or things get processed is like via my gendered relationships with other genders. Right. Like I, I remember there was this, we took this, we rode our bikes from, from Maryland to North Carolina one summer, And I just like was friends with a lot of the girls. I would like ride ride my bike with a group of like four girls and one other guy maybe. And I remember I was at one point like sort of like lounging on a girl in the hotel, like on our last like few days in North Carolina.
(6m 14s):
And, And I don’t know if like the, the youth director said this to me or said this to someone about me or said it to my parents, but like, somehow it got back to me that like, someone had called me like a Casanova. ’cause I was like always with the girls And I was like, I’m just a gay boy. Like, like, but like the fact that I was like spending time with girls, like could, in this world you could only be read through like the lens of like, ladies man, which was just like fa fascinating. Yeah. I’m, I as you’re saying that, right? Like, I’m remembering my summer mission trip from hell that I talked about in, in at length and in the margins.
(6m 56s):
Right. And there was, I also got in trouble for hanging out primarily with the girls because I was violating gender expectations. Yeah. Right. Like, because I was visibly gender nonconforming. Something about me hanging out with the girls violated the norms of that community, even though technically I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. Right. Like, I, I wasn’t hanging out with the boys, which was also frowned upon. Yeah. Right. So I, I I, And I share that because like, I, I think that this is why, this is why like gender and evangelical spaces is so fucked up, right.
(7m 41s):
Because it’s so, it’s almost impossible to do it. Right? Yes. I I I have a story about that also. Yeah. No matter who you are, right. Like the, you there is always these like bizarre rules that you find yourself violating without intending to because like the rules aren’t real. Yeah. Right. And they’re not, they’re, they’re like made up in some white cis man’s head Right. Of like what he thinks masculinity and femininity should look like. And so that then gets enforced on everyone else. Like, even though it’s not even real for cis folks. Yeah. And I think that that’s what’s so interesting And I it varies from person to person, right.
(8m 26s):
Like, like leader to leader. Because I remember in, in seventh through eighth grade, I had a girlfriend at church and we were like together a lot. I mean, we only ever, it was months before we made out. We had our first kiss at, at church camp. But like I was, I don’t know what that was doing. I was like, probably not all that into her, but like, we were at least like holding hands and had our arms around each other a lot. And I remember in like seventh or eighth grade, like once or twice, people making comments about sort of like us being like attached at the hip. And it, it was like, it was like said in kind of like a bad way. Like we were spending like too much time together or we were like too close or we were like too physically affectionate with one another and like, maybe that was like starting to border on like sinful or lustful or something.
(9m 12s):
But then like fast forward a few years, I’m on this bike trip and I’m like laying on a girl’s lap and that a different leader is telling is calling me like a Casanova in a positive way. And I, I I, in hindsight, I wonder if like in seventh or eighth grade, they hadn’t clocked that I was queer yet. And so being too sexual was like a bad thing. But by like 10th grade they were starting to wonder maybe I was queer. And so me being close with a woman, they wanted to sort of like Yeah. Contextualize that in sort of a like, oh, this must be romance. We’re gonna positively reward this behavior because we want, we want you to say like, oh, you can do it like you with these ladies.
(9m 55s):
And like Yeah. It’s just so, ugh. I was 14. Like, get off my back. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I, I think like you, I grew up in a church that like talked about gender all the time without ever talking about gender. Right. And so it was also like super sneaky and super, you know, under the radar did lots and lots of things that were gender segregated. And like as a trans kid who didn’t have language for that, I just remember always feeling out of place. Right? Yeah. Because I was expected to be in certain spaces, but then I would get in those spaces and be like, I dunno what to do in this space.
(10m 36s):
Like, I’m deeply uncomfortable at the 17th baby shower of the year for, you know, 20 something year olds. Like, can I please go play foosball with the boys? But, and, and then, and you know, lots of things about like leadership. There were a lot of conversations about leadership, I think especially because I was a kid that was loud and upfront and very much gravitated toward the leadership role. And I do, like, I will give my youth pastor credit, like he gave me a lot of leeway and space to be myself And I think protected me from some folks who did not want me doing those things. Yeah.
(11m 16s):
But I definitely also got the sense of like, yes, you can do that because you are doing music or drama or whatever less. So when you’re doing other things though though, I, I do remember when I came, I did an internship at the church that I grew up in my late in my, maybe my sophomore year of college because I was studying youth ministry and in my youth ministry classes at college, I, so I’m getting a degree in youth ministry. And every single year in almost all of the classes, they would say to the people that they assumed were women in these classes. You can get this degree, but you can never be a youth pastor.
(11m 57s):
So you’re letting me get a degree in youth ministry while telling me I can never use second degree. Oh my god. I’m like, oh, so you’ll take my money. But anyway, so I had to do an internship and so I went back to the church that I grew up in And I remember they let me like lead, we went on a beach retreat and they like, let me lead all of the bible study sessions for kids of like all genders. But then I got back to college And I tried to tell my, my advisors like what I had done over my summer and a, they like ignored all of the stuff that I had done and then asked me what I wanted to do when I graduated. And I was telling them like, I’m feeling called to doing like theater and, and using whatever.
(12m 43s):
And they’re like, oh, you know, you should really work with children. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t want to work with children. And they were like, no, but like that’s really you, like you should work with kids. And I was like, I don’t think you’ve ever seen me work with kids. No one wants me working with children. It turns out that I did actually then work with children quite a bit Yeah. In my career. But, but it was this sense of like, I I, I remember really distinctly standing in front of them saying like, this is what I feel called to. And them just ignoring that because they had in their mind of like what women did quote unquote. Yeah. And again, it was like really sneaky. You know, I, I’m thinking about like, when I was, when I was doing research for my book, I read John Eldridges Wild at Heart, which now has had its 20th anniversary.
(13m 34s):
It has a fancy new updated edition with even more homophobia in trans great than the original. But you know what I was so struck by in this book, you know, which has sold like 20 million copies, right? So many churches have, have done book studies around this book is that I think there are some ways that Eldridge like really names the problem of that a lot of men experience of like being bored and angry and disconnected and not knowing why. And so I was reading that and I’m like, yeah, this is great. And then he’s, his solution is like, I don’t know, go camp a lot and buy a ceremonial braveheart sword and do more dude stuff.
(14m 22s):
Yeah. And like that will fix you. And I just, I, I remember, you know, reading that and thinking like, how depressing would it be if you were already struggling to read this book and feel seen? And then to have the solution be like, probably the thing that you’ve already tried to do that didn’t work. Right? Yeah. Like, you know, you’re, you’ve already tried to like be a better leader in your household. I’m using air quotes or like be more spiritual or like do more dude stuff. And like that hasn’t fixed it. And so now you’re reading this book that then says, because that hasn’t fixed it, you are like failing at masculinity and you’re probably sinning too.
(15m 5s):
Like, it’s just such a Yeah. It’s bad for men and it’s bad for like everyone that men interact with because then like no wonder they’re angry. Yeah. I, I’ve been thinking a lot because of your book and its title, No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, like, who taught me how to be a man. And like the message I received around masculinity growing up. And I remember being like, feeling very adrift. Like there were these messages that I was getting from pop culture that was like, you should be suave and you should be like sexually active and you should be macho. And then I was getting these messages from church that were like, you should be chased and you should be like a leader, but in sort of a like servant leader humble sort of way.
(15m 52s):
And I was like, which like, you should be like not having any sex. You should be having lots of sex. I’m like, which one is it? And, and, And I will pre pre preface this by saying like, my dad And I have like a great relationship now, but like growing up I like didn’t like, he had like a set of things that he liked to do probably that he did with his dad. Like he fished and he played football. And so like if I was like willing to do one of those things, like we could spend quality time together, but like he didn’t know how to talk to me about like my interests. He definitely didn’t know how to talk about either of our interior worlds. Like, I even remember being like, oh, I’m like starting to like grow facial hair. Like I don’t know what to do with this. Like, I think somebody just like started stealing my dad’s disposable razors and like shaving.
(16m 35s):
I mean, I, I have very fine facial hair, not very much of it. So I could get away with just sort of like shaving in the shower without any shaving lotion. And then at some point, my grandma bless her heart one year for Christmas, she gave every single grandkid a razor. So like my cousin who was like pre like, did not have any facial hair and like my other, my youngest cousin and then my oldest cousin, like, had been shaving for years and years and years and probably had his own razor. Like we all got razors. And so now I was like, oh, like now I have a razor. And so like maybe at that point I started like getting my own shaving cream, but there was like a long, like many years where I was just sort of like secretly shaving, which like feels like I don’t, like why was I doing that? Like why, like, did, did Noah notice?
(17m 16s):
Like, it was just like weird, you know? And in my dad’s defense, I don’t think he had a very great relationship with his dad. Like his dad was also just sort of like macho. And, and so it’s, it’s I And I, And I think in the nineties and two thousands, like the message was like, well that makes you gay. Like if you don’t have a good relationship with your dad, it makes you gay. But like, I know a lot of people in the nineties who didn’t have good relationships with their dads. But also like the, the thing that has like made my dad And I have like an incredible relationship now is like us being able to like, talk about things beyond the surface level and for him to like show up and support me in like, all areas of my life and for him to like grow a little and me to grow a little.
(18m 1s):
And like the funny thing is now like, because we have such a good relationship, like I, I like want to go fishing with him sometimes in a way that, like when I was a kid, I just absolutely hated it. But I mean also I’m a, you know, I’m maybe more more mature now, but it’s like, because we had this sort of like mutual relationship, like it, it allows us to sort of like see each other. And so like the, the solution to like the problems of like masculinity is not to like double down on all of the things that cause the problems. Like Yeah. Harshness of becoming an island onto yourself. Not like, not being vulnerable, not collaborating. Like we, that’s just like crazy. Like all the things that cause the problems that are being proposed as solutions.
(18m 41s):
And I’m not like any of those queer now, but I have like a great relationship with my dad and it’s not at all because like we got a sword or like went on a men’s retreat, you know, or like, he like taught me how to read the Bible, like disciples and whatever that that means. It’s like, ’cause we care about each other and we figured out how to talk about that and we like show up for each other. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that you’re right, like the thing that I’m really advocating for in the book is like not a one size fits all depiction of masculinity, but like an opening up of like what masculinity means and can look like, because I think that that’s what’s actually healthier for folks. Yeah. Right.
(19m 21s):
And I think too that like, I don’t know, as someone who very much identifies as a man, I also think the solution isn’t, And I know that this is controversial in some queer spaces, like the solution also isn’t to like abolish gender, right? Yeah. Like I, I personally believe that there are always gonna be people that identify within the binary somehow, and that that’s not a bad thing, right? That, but opening up like what that means and what that looks like and how we can embody and inhabit that while also paying attention to like how we show up for people of other genders. Like that’s where the real work is. And as someone who like very much had to fight for my masculinity and to claim my identity, like I, I get really like a little crabby when people are like, you shouldn’t exist.
(20m 10s):
Like, we should just get rid of gender entirely. And it’s like, no, actually, like my gender actually matters quite a bit to me. And I really had to work to figure out what it means to me and how to like carry it well and hopefully in a way that like doesn’t do harm to people of other genders. And I think that there’s a lot of people that at least feel, if not comfortable, they feel like, oh, like this is a word that does, describes me, right? That this is a word that I inhabit, whether that’s masculine or feminine or man or woman. And obviously of course there are also lots of people for whom those words don’t feel right. But yeah, I I I think it’s, it’s complicated to say like, what, what does this and what can this look Like?
(20m 56s):
Yeah. And I mean, I feel like I have bit of a broken record here, but I just feel like trans folks in general and like trans guys more specifically, and you even more specifically have like, taught me so much about like, I like what it means to be a man, but also like what it means to be a person. Like what it means to have a body, what it means to think like critically about open-heartedly about gender. Like I, I, one of my, my first roommate in New York and one of my best friends how we met, like came out as trans while we were living together. And like then like via him, I just ended up with tons of trans guy friends and going to the a trans health conference and really sort of like thinking critically about gender and my gender and my body and like what gender affirming care looks like for trans folks and what gender affirming care looks like for cis folks and like gender euphoria and like I is wearing a dress or painting my nails, like giving myself and like wearing makeup, like giving myself permission to experiment with those things.
(21m 59s):
But also like, not necessarily having those things necessarily mean that I am a woman or that those parts like have to are like inherently feminine, right? Like I can be a man who wears makeup, a man who with painted nails. Yeah. Like, I think that there’s a real gift there to sort of complicating our conversations around gender, you know, and, and you talked about sort of like, there are always gonna be, you think like some people who fit within the binary And I think even calling trans guys or trans women sort of like binary, binary trans folks, right? Like, I don’t know that even that feels a little reductive that like, like if gender is a spectrum, right?
(22m 39s):
Like people exist on all points of that spectrum and just because someone identifies as a man and not non-binary, just because someone wears in our culture traditionally masculine clothes, like also like, doesn’t necessarily even, you know, that person is like, believes that gender is a binary or in all aspects of your, their lives as like ascribed to the gender binary, right? Like I, you know, I think about you, you’re someone who is like definitely a man, right? And also, like, you’re kind and you’re thoughtful and you’re creative and like sometimes you’re grumpy, but also there’s like a real softness to you. And I think a, those are things that are like often not ascribed to like men in our patriarchal culture.
(23m 24s):
And also like why shouldn’t they be male traits? And there is like, yeah, it doesn’t make you, you less of a man or those traits less masculine, but it just is sort of like a whole big picture, right? And I wanna like, take all of it into consideration. And I, what I appreciate from you and many of the trans folks that I have learned from is like, we don’t have to seed compassion to femininity and we don’t have to seed leadership to masculinity. And perhaps like some folks, and sometimes I’ve wondered like, am I non-binary or am I a gender or gender queer? Like you can have a constellation of different traits and some like, those could maybe even be separate from how you like, identify inwardly.
(24m 8s):
And that like gender is like so much richer than like a checkbox. And like there’s like some real value in like thinking critically about your own gender. And I will say like, there’s, I’m so excited about your book because like as a cis person, our four cis people are for people who have like mostly thought of themselves as cis or like are unsure. There’s like some real power in like learning about gender or hearing about gender and generally masculinity specifically, like from a trans person that I like, I’m thinking about being at the Philly Trans Health Conference in like circa 2009 and being like out to dinner with like 12 people and being like the only cis guy there.
(24m 52s):
And just sort of like the different types of conversations that get had in a, in a room full of trans people and one in one cis person. Right. Or to, or there were times where we were like, I’m pretty sure people just like assumed that I was trans because there just like, that weren’t many cis guys at the trans health conference. And So just sort of like, what does it mean, like to have people assume that you’re trans and then to like figure out how to navigate that in a respectful way, like in an honest way, but also like not in a defensive way and like what does it mean to be trans? And like what would that mean? Most people can’t like transport themselves into a room of 12 trans folks and be the el cis person there. And so I think like your book is a great moment, like a great learning opportunity for folks to sort of like, see it through, like to see the world and to see gender and to see masculinity through this sort of specific lens that I think has a really universal application.
(25m 46s):
I know it’s been so meaning like the work of you and other trans folks has been so meaningful to me in my own sort of like gendered and embodied experience. Yeah. And I think that that’s like the biggest thing that I hope that this book does for folks is like, just offers the opportunity to reflect. Yeah. Right? Because I think that, I’ve said this before, but like one of the great gifts of of being trans is that you get to be intentional about how you inhabit and embody your gender. Like, because nothing is assumed and for me, like no one wants me to be a man. Yeah. And so I get to like be whatever kind of man I want because like, it doesn’t really matter, right?
(26m 29s):
Like, yeah, people don’t expect me to be in that space anyway, so like, I’m just gonna show up how I wanna show up. But I think that that’s been a real gift of, of saying like, oh, I can be this thing without having to like, to take on any of the things that other people say I have to take on And I can just like be myself. And, And I will say like, that has gotten significantly easier now that I primarily, you know, quote unquote pass as a, as a cis person, like that was definitely harder. It was harder to like inhabit myself in my fullness when I was still early in transition and constantly being mistaken for a gender I didn’t identify as, like, that was a lot harder.
(27m 15s):
But now that I’ve moved past that stage, it’s like I just don’t worry now, right? Like, I don’t worry if someone’s gonna think I’m effeminate or gay or whatever, like, that doesn’t bother me. But I wanna inhabit and embody my gender in a way that feels the most comfortable to me. And I, and that’s what I want for everyone, right? Like, I want everyone to be able to walk into a room and feel like they’re not policing their own gestures, that they’re not worrying about how they look or how they’re moving their hands or what their voice sounds like, right? Like that, that they can just show up and be seen as who they are and be welcomed in those spaces. And I think that what it takes to get there is for all of us to, to approach gender with more intention, and especially for men to approach gender with more intention.
(28m 7s):
Yeah. I’m, I think, I think there’s like something really wholly about the like reflecting and the like questioning and the, like, sitting in the uncertainty of it all. I mean, I, I know that like when I found the word queer, found the word bisexual, right? It like, I was like, oh, that’s like something that like makes sense to me. That’s just feels like it describes who I am. That is a way, like way by which I can find other people and like it, but even, even in that, right? Like, I don’t know, I’m like technically bisexual, but sometimes, like the word gay feels like more accurate. Sometimes the word queer feels more accurate, right? Like, so I kinda like hold all those labels loosely.
(28m 49s):
And I feel like with gender, like I, I I hold things even more loosely that like, am I cis? Am I, am I trans? Am I a gender? Am I gender queer? Am I non-binary? Like, for me at least feels like, like coming to a hard and fast like decision around like an ident like a gendered identity that is right for me feels less important to me as does sort of like holding it all kind of lightly and asking questions and experimenting and trying things on and seeing like, if I do this, how does that feel? How do, like, if I do that, how does that feel? How can I, what qualities in people in general do I admire?
(29m 32s):
What qualities in men do I admire? What qualities in women do I admire? What qualities in gender queer folks do I admire? What do I wanna sort of try on for myself? And sort of existing in sort of like a state of always becoming rather than feeling like I have arrived. And you know, there’s, there’s this, I know, I forget who said it, I think it was a Jewish, a queer Jewish per person was like, you know, we, we like say there’s a blessing in Judaism for, for bread, and it’s like, blessed are you, Adam And I are God sovereign of the universe who like brings forth bread from the earth. But like, obviously like bread doesn’t like literally come from the earth where it’s like wheat and flour and you have to, you have to like make the bread.
(30m 17s):
And there’s this, there’s this saying of like, it’s a reminder that like we join in the co-creation of creation like with God And I, And I know you’ve talked about like your transness being this sort of like, you take an active part in co-creating yourself and your gender and your body with God. And that is something that I have like taken on for myself in a less extreme way. I’m not like trans, I’m not on hormones, I’m on medication to keep my hair from falling out, which is like, you know, gender affirming care in its own way. But like, there’s something of this sort of like active ongoing process of like creating ourselves and creating ourselves a new, and the person that I am today is different than the person that I was a year ago and five years ago and 10 years ago.
(31m 0s):
And like, that’s like really cool and exciting And I don’t know who I will be in 10 years from now, but I want to get there with some intentionality. And I feel like the questions that you raise in this book are gonna help me, help, help me do that. I hope so, I, I hope that this book becomes an, an invitation to deeper conversation for folks, right? That it’s, it becomes a, that it’s a starting point, not a, not another manual of like ceremonial swords and parties that instead it’s like a, hey, how do we, how do we enter into these conversations? Yeah. So if folks wanna get this, it comes out officially April 15th, Amazon in particular, and some other booksellers in general sometimes send things out early.
(31m 46s):
So if you pre-order it, you might actually get it earlier. So hop on there now. You can get it anywhere books are sold. If you go to Queer Theology dot com slash books, it’ll be right at the top of that page. And there’s links to Bookshop and Barnes and Noble and Amazon to help you find those links quickly. But I know we’ve said this before, but pre-sales really help with authors in general. In particular, like new authors, newer authors, authors with marginalized identities to let the publisher know, to let potential booksellers know, like, this is a book that matters. These are stories that matter. These are types of authors that people are like interested in, in taking seriously. And like fortunately is a business, right? And so like, like, yeah, like queer authors get asked to write books because other queer authors sell books.
(32m 30s):
And so a think that this book is gonna be really exciting for everyone who is a man or is in love with a man, or knows a man who has had to work with a man. It would probably be more useful for, for men and masculine folks, but I think really for anyone. And also an added bonus of supporting you in particular and queer and trans authors in general. So Queer Theology dot com slash books to find all the links to No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, which comes out on April 15th. And if you happen to be in Minneapolis or thereabouts on April 14th, so the day before it officially releases, I’m gonna be having a launch party at Moon Palace books in Minneapolis.
(33m 9s):
You’ll be able to get the book a day early and I’ll be signing, there’s gonna be some special guests and some performances. It’s gonna be a really fun event. So if you wanna come to that Moon Palace books on April 14th and masks are still required at Moon Palace, so tuck a mask in your pocket and come on out. It’s gonna be really fun. Awesome. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.
The post Failing At Gender appeared first on Queer Theology.
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By Queer Theology / Brian G. Murphy & Shannon T.L. Kearns
4.3
193193 ratings
We delve into the complex interplay between church teachings, gender identity, and masculinity. As we explore the subtle (or not so subtle!) messages received in church environments regarding gender roles, we look at the impact of gender segregation and the challenges of navigating masculinity in a world filled with conflicting expectations. Shannon’s book, “No One Taught Me How to Be a Man,” comes out April 15, so this conversation emphasizes the importance of redefining masculinity and gender identity. We are advocating for a more inclusive understanding of gender that allows for personal expression and self-discovery not confined, or defined, by Christian ideas of what are masculine or feminine.
Takeaways
Chapters
(04:25) The Impact of Gender Segregation
(10:38) Navigating Masculinity and Expectations
(18:24) Redefining Masculinity and Gender Identity
(26:41) The Journey of Self-Discovery and Gender Expression
Resources:
If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology
This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we are gonna be talking about church and theology and gender. So exciting, exciting things. We’re getting ready for the release of my new book. No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, but a trans man’s experience reveals about masculinity.
(50s):
It comes out in just two weeks from when we’re recording this on April 15th. So it, it’s available for pre-order now if you wanna get that. And so we thought it would be a good time to talk about church and gender and all of those fun things. So Brian, I’m curious for you, like when you think about church and gender, especially growing up, what kind of messages did you get? I, I, I feel like I know your ans my your answer to this of like, the messages that you got at home were very different from the messages that you got at church. Yeah. And so I wonder if you could just talk about that a little Bit. Well, I think the messages I got at church were subtle and sneaky.
(1m 32s):
It wasn’t until, I don’t know, when I was maybe like in high school or college that my mom pointed out to me. Oh yeah. Like they start segregating Sunday school by gender starting in fifth grade. And from that point on, boys are never taught by women. Like, and the, in the group, in the groups, in the combined group settings, like a man is always teaching. And then when you have like your breakouts, it’s like men lead the men’s, the boys groups and women lead the, the girls groups. And it had just like, not occurred to me that part of the reason for that was to keep women from teaching even like 13-year-old boys.
(2m 19s):
Yeah. I just as growing up thought like, oh, like, it’s like fun to be with the other boys, like boys and boys together and girls and girls together. Like, that’s just like how it is. Even though as like a closeted gay boy, I had close friendships with people who were girls. And so like, but I, I just like, I, I never questioned what function, like gender segregated classes or small groups might have, other than it being just sort of like a positive thing. And my mom was like, oh yeah, that’s like definitely part of fourth, this theology that like, women can’t teach men including teenage boys. And that just sort of like blew my mind.
(3m 0s):
And I think that like had she not pointed that out to me, I might not have ever stopped to even think about that. Right. And I know that, like, obviously I know that sexism is a thing, but like that particular way of like the ways in which small groups Sunday schools were like leveraged subtly in, in service of like the patriarchy just totally, totally slipped my, slipped my view. And so then I, I think that that, that was sort of like my church’s approach was like a very sort of like show don’t tell. They never outright said women can’t be trusted. They’re the lesser stacks, but they definitely like the ways in which they talked about men or women in terms of like nurturing and caring and the family and men being strong and leaders and protectors.
(3m 55s):
It was all this sort of like subtle reinforcement that like, definitely like wheeled its way into us, but without having to ever say like, men should be this way and, and women should be this way. And, and one is better than the other. But like the message that you walk away with is like, well, I never saw a woman preach before. Right. Like, but I, but I did, like, I, like Susan Tawa was like the, I don’t know what her title was, but like, she like helped with music and like, she would kind of talk like she was around and like, I had, like, I had relationships with female leaders, whether they were staff people or like college volunteers, but they were always like, upon reflection, like informal leader mentorship relationships, just ’cause I like gravitated towards those people.
(4m 44s):
They like didn’t actually have any authority over me and definitely weren’t in any sort of like decision making capacity in the organization. And so that’s just like a, a snapshot of the messages that I got from church. Yeah. And I imagine too that because there was so much gender segregated space, you’re also getting messages about gender simply by being segregated. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like yeah, like that, that is also the sneaky kind of influence too. And it, it, it feels all like, like it is true, right? That sexual orientation and gender and gender identity are like two separate things.
(5m 27s):
Like, and also they’re very much like wrapped up in one another that a lot of the ways in which my, like gayness or bisexuality is policed is around gendered expectations. Right. Like, I’m not like being a man in the correct way. And a lot of the ways in which that, like, that gets seen or things get processed is like via my gendered relationships with other genders. Right. Like I, I remember there was this, we took this, we rode our bikes from, from Maryland to North Carolina one summer, And I just like was friends with a lot of the girls. I would like ride ride my bike with a group of like four girls and one other guy maybe. And I remember I was at one point like sort of like lounging on a girl in the hotel, like on our last like few days in North Carolina.
(6m 14s):
And, And I don’t know if like the, the youth director said this to me or said this to someone about me or said it to my parents, but like, somehow it got back to me that like, someone had called me like a Casanova. ’cause I was like always with the girls And I was like, I’m just a gay boy. Like, like, but like the fact that I was like spending time with girls, like could, in this world you could only be read through like the lens of like, ladies man, which was just like fa fascinating. Yeah. I’m, I as you’re saying that, right? Like, I’m remembering my summer mission trip from hell that I talked about in, in at length and in the margins.
(6m 56s):
Right. And there was, I also got in trouble for hanging out primarily with the girls because I was violating gender expectations. Yeah. Right. Like, because I was visibly gender nonconforming. Something about me hanging out with the girls violated the norms of that community, even though technically I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. Right. Like, I, I wasn’t hanging out with the boys, which was also frowned upon. Yeah. Right. So I, I I, And I share that because like, I, I think that this is why, this is why like gender and evangelical spaces is so fucked up, right.
(7m 41s):
Because it’s so, it’s almost impossible to do it. Right? Yes. I I I have a story about that also. Yeah. No matter who you are, right. Like the, you there is always these like bizarre rules that you find yourself violating without intending to because like the rules aren’t real. Yeah. Right. And they’re not, they’re, they’re like made up in some white cis man’s head Right. Of like what he thinks masculinity and femininity should look like. And so that then gets enforced on everyone else. Like, even though it’s not even real for cis folks. Yeah. And I think that that’s what’s so interesting And I it varies from person to person, right.
(8m 26s):
Like, like leader to leader. Because I remember in, in seventh through eighth grade, I had a girlfriend at church and we were like together a lot. I mean, we only ever, it was months before we made out. We had our first kiss at, at church camp. But like I was, I don’t know what that was doing. I was like, probably not all that into her, but like, we were at least like holding hands and had our arms around each other a lot. And I remember in like seventh or eighth grade, like once or twice, people making comments about sort of like us being like attached at the hip. And it, it was like, it was like said in kind of like a bad way. Like we were spending like too much time together or we were like too close or we were like too physically affectionate with one another and like, maybe that was like starting to border on like sinful or lustful or something.
(9m 12s):
But then like fast forward a few years, I’m on this bike trip and I’m like laying on a girl’s lap and that a different leader is telling is calling me like a Casanova in a positive way. And I, I I, in hindsight, I wonder if like in seventh or eighth grade, they hadn’t clocked that I was queer yet. And so being too sexual was like a bad thing. But by like 10th grade they were starting to wonder maybe I was queer. And so me being close with a woman, they wanted to sort of like Yeah. Contextualize that in sort of a like, oh, this must be romance. We’re gonna positively reward this behavior because we want, we want you to say like, oh, you can do it like you with these ladies.
(9m 55s):
And like Yeah. It’s just so, ugh. I was 14. Like, get off my back. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I, I think like you, I grew up in a church that like talked about gender all the time without ever talking about gender. Right. And so it was also like super sneaky and super, you know, under the radar did lots and lots of things that were gender segregated. And like as a trans kid who didn’t have language for that, I just remember always feeling out of place. Right? Yeah. Because I was expected to be in certain spaces, but then I would get in those spaces and be like, I dunno what to do in this space.
(10m 36s):
Like, I’m deeply uncomfortable at the 17th baby shower of the year for, you know, 20 something year olds. Like, can I please go play foosball with the boys? But, and, and then, and you know, lots of things about like leadership. There were a lot of conversations about leadership, I think especially because I was a kid that was loud and upfront and very much gravitated toward the leadership role. And I do, like, I will give my youth pastor credit, like he gave me a lot of leeway and space to be myself And I think protected me from some folks who did not want me doing those things. Yeah.
(11m 16s):
But I definitely also got the sense of like, yes, you can do that because you are doing music or drama or whatever less. So when you’re doing other things though though, I, I do remember when I came, I did an internship at the church that I grew up in my late in my, maybe my sophomore year of college because I was studying youth ministry and in my youth ministry classes at college, I, so I’m getting a degree in youth ministry. And every single year in almost all of the classes, they would say to the people that they assumed were women in these classes. You can get this degree, but you can never be a youth pastor.
(11m 57s):
So you’re letting me get a degree in youth ministry while telling me I can never use second degree. Oh my god. I’m like, oh, so you’ll take my money. But anyway, so I had to do an internship and so I went back to the church that I grew up in And I remember they let me like lead, we went on a beach retreat and they like, let me lead all of the bible study sessions for kids of like all genders. But then I got back to college And I tried to tell my, my advisors like what I had done over my summer and a, they like ignored all of the stuff that I had done and then asked me what I wanted to do when I graduated. And I was telling them like, I’m feeling called to doing like theater and, and using whatever.
(12m 43s):
And they’re like, oh, you know, you should really work with children. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t want to work with children. And they were like, no, but like that’s really you, like you should work with kids. And I was like, I don’t think you’ve ever seen me work with kids. No one wants me working with children. It turns out that I did actually then work with children quite a bit Yeah. In my career. But, but it was this sense of like, I I, I remember really distinctly standing in front of them saying like, this is what I feel called to. And them just ignoring that because they had in their mind of like what women did quote unquote. Yeah. And again, it was like really sneaky. You know, I, I’m thinking about like, when I was, when I was doing research for my book, I read John Eldridges Wild at Heart, which now has had its 20th anniversary.
(13m 34s):
It has a fancy new updated edition with even more homophobia in trans great than the original. But you know what I was so struck by in this book, you know, which has sold like 20 million copies, right? So many churches have, have done book studies around this book is that I think there are some ways that Eldridge like really names the problem of that a lot of men experience of like being bored and angry and disconnected and not knowing why. And so I was reading that and I’m like, yeah, this is great. And then he’s, his solution is like, I don’t know, go camp a lot and buy a ceremonial braveheart sword and do more dude stuff.
(14m 22s):
Yeah. And like that will fix you. And I just, I, I remember, you know, reading that and thinking like, how depressing would it be if you were already struggling to read this book and feel seen? And then to have the solution be like, probably the thing that you’ve already tried to do that didn’t work. Right? Yeah. Like, you know, you’re, you’ve already tried to like be a better leader in your household. I’m using air quotes or like be more spiritual or like do more dude stuff. And like that hasn’t fixed it. And so now you’re reading this book that then says, because that hasn’t fixed it, you are like failing at masculinity and you’re probably sinning too.
(15m 5s):
Like, it’s just such a Yeah. It’s bad for men and it’s bad for like everyone that men interact with because then like no wonder they’re angry. Yeah. I, I’ve been thinking a lot because of your book and its title, No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, like, who taught me how to be a man. And like the message I received around masculinity growing up. And I remember being like, feeling very adrift. Like there were these messages that I was getting from pop culture that was like, you should be suave and you should be like sexually active and you should be macho. And then I was getting these messages from church that were like, you should be chased and you should be like a leader, but in sort of a like servant leader humble sort of way.
(15m 52s):
And I was like, which like, you should be like not having any sex. You should be having lots of sex. I’m like, which one is it? And, and, And I will pre pre preface this by saying like, my dad And I have like a great relationship now, but like growing up I like didn’t like, he had like a set of things that he liked to do probably that he did with his dad. Like he fished and he played football. And so like if I was like willing to do one of those things, like we could spend quality time together, but like he didn’t know how to talk to me about like my interests. He definitely didn’t know how to talk about either of our interior worlds. Like, I even remember being like, oh, I’m like starting to like grow facial hair. Like I don’t know what to do with this. Like, I think somebody just like started stealing my dad’s disposable razors and like shaving.
(16m 35s):
I mean, I, I have very fine facial hair, not very much of it. So I could get away with just sort of like shaving in the shower without any shaving lotion. And then at some point, my grandma bless her heart one year for Christmas, she gave every single grandkid a razor. So like my cousin who was like pre like, did not have any facial hair and like my other, my youngest cousin and then my oldest cousin, like, had been shaving for years and years and years and probably had his own razor. Like we all got razors. And so now I was like, oh, like now I have a razor. And so like maybe at that point I started like getting my own shaving cream, but there was like a long, like many years where I was just sort of like secretly shaving, which like feels like I don’t, like why was I doing that? Like why, like, did, did Noah notice?
(17m 16s):
Like, it was just like weird, you know? And in my dad’s defense, I don’t think he had a very great relationship with his dad. Like his dad was also just sort of like macho. And, and so it’s, it’s I And I, And I think in the nineties and two thousands, like the message was like, well that makes you gay. Like if you don’t have a good relationship with your dad, it makes you gay. But like, I know a lot of people in the nineties who didn’t have good relationships with their dads. But also like the, the thing that has like made my dad And I have like an incredible relationship now is like us being able to like, talk about things beyond the surface level and for him to like show up and support me in like, all areas of my life and for him to like grow a little and me to grow a little.
(18m 1s):
And like the funny thing is now like, because we have such a good relationship, like I, I like want to go fishing with him sometimes in a way that, like when I was a kid, I just absolutely hated it. But I mean also I’m a, you know, I’m maybe more more mature now, but it’s like, because we had this sort of like mutual relationship, like it, it allows us to sort of like see each other. And so like the, the solution to like the problems of like masculinity is not to like double down on all of the things that cause the problems. Like Yeah. Harshness of becoming an island onto yourself. Not like, not being vulnerable, not collaborating. Like we, that’s just like crazy. Like all the things that cause the problems that are being proposed as solutions.
(18m 41s):
And I’m not like any of those queer now, but I have like a great relationship with my dad and it’s not at all because like we got a sword or like went on a men’s retreat, you know, or like, he like taught me how to read the Bible, like disciples and whatever that that means. It’s like, ’cause we care about each other and we figured out how to talk about that and we like show up for each other. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that you’re right, like the thing that I’m really advocating for in the book is like not a one size fits all depiction of masculinity, but like an opening up of like what masculinity means and can look like, because I think that that’s what’s actually healthier for folks. Yeah. Right.
(19m 21s):
And I think too that like, I don’t know, as someone who very much identifies as a man, I also think the solution isn’t, And I know that this is controversial in some queer spaces, like the solution also isn’t to like abolish gender, right? Yeah. Like I, I personally believe that there are always gonna be people that identify within the binary somehow, and that that’s not a bad thing, right? That, but opening up like what that means and what that looks like and how we can embody and inhabit that while also paying attention to like how we show up for people of other genders. Like that’s where the real work is. And as someone who like very much had to fight for my masculinity and to claim my identity, like I, I get really like a little crabby when people are like, you shouldn’t exist.
(20m 10s):
Like, we should just get rid of gender entirely. And it’s like, no, actually, like my gender actually matters quite a bit to me. And I really had to work to figure out what it means to me and how to like carry it well and hopefully in a way that like doesn’t do harm to people of other genders. And I think that there’s a lot of people that at least feel, if not comfortable, they feel like, oh, like this is a word that does, describes me, right? That this is a word that I inhabit, whether that’s masculine or feminine or man or woman. And obviously of course there are also lots of people for whom those words don’t feel right. But yeah, I I I think it’s, it’s complicated to say like, what, what does this and what can this look Like?
(20m 56s):
Yeah. And I mean, I feel like I have bit of a broken record here, but I just feel like trans folks in general and like trans guys more specifically, and you even more specifically have like, taught me so much about like, I like what it means to be a man, but also like what it means to be a person. Like what it means to have a body, what it means to think like critically about open-heartedly about gender. Like I, I, one of my, my first roommate in New York and one of my best friends how we met, like came out as trans while we were living together. And like then like via him, I just ended up with tons of trans guy friends and going to the a trans health conference and really sort of like thinking critically about gender and my gender and my body and like what gender affirming care looks like for trans folks and what gender affirming care looks like for cis folks and like gender euphoria and like I is wearing a dress or painting my nails, like giving myself and like wearing makeup, like giving myself permission to experiment with those things.
(21m 59s):
But also like, not necessarily having those things necessarily mean that I am a woman or that those parts like have to are like inherently feminine, right? Like I can be a man who wears makeup, a man who with painted nails. Yeah. Like, I think that there’s a real gift there to sort of complicating our conversations around gender, you know, and, and you talked about sort of like, there are always gonna be, you think like some people who fit within the binary And I think even calling trans guys or trans women sort of like binary, binary trans folks, right? Like, I don’t know that even that feels a little reductive that like, like if gender is a spectrum, right?
(22m 39s):
Like people exist on all points of that spectrum and just because someone identifies as a man and not non-binary, just because someone wears in our culture traditionally masculine clothes, like also like, doesn’t necessarily even, you know, that person is like, believes that gender is a binary or in all aspects of your, their lives as like ascribed to the gender binary, right? Like I, you know, I think about you, you’re someone who is like definitely a man, right? And also, like, you’re kind and you’re thoughtful and you’re creative and like sometimes you’re grumpy, but also there’s like a real softness to you. And I think a, those are things that are like often not ascribed to like men in our patriarchal culture.
(23m 24s):
And also like why shouldn’t they be male traits? And there is like, yeah, it doesn’t make you, you less of a man or those traits less masculine, but it just is sort of like a whole big picture, right? And I wanna like, take all of it into consideration. And I, what I appreciate from you and many of the trans folks that I have learned from is like, we don’t have to seed compassion to femininity and we don’t have to seed leadership to masculinity. And perhaps like some folks, and sometimes I’ve wondered like, am I non-binary or am I a gender or gender queer? Like you can have a constellation of different traits and some like, those could maybe even be separate from how you like, identify inwardly.
(24m 8s):
And that like gender is like so much richer than like a checkbox. And like there’s like some real value in like thinking critically about your own gender. And I will say like, there’s, I’m so excited about your book because like as a cis person, our four cis people are for people who have like mostly thought of themselves as cis or like are unsure. There’s like some real power in like learning about gender or hearing about gender and generally masculinity specifically, like from a trans person that I like, I’m thinking about being at the Philly Trans Health Conference in like circa 2009 and being like out to dinner with like 12 people and being like the only cis guy there.
(24m 52s):
And just sort of like the different types of conversations that get had in a, in a room full of trans people and one in one cis person. Right. Or to, or there were times where we were like, I’m pretty sure people just like assumed that I was trans because there just like, that weren’t many cis guys at the trans health conference. And So just sort of like, what does it mean, like to have people assume that you’re trans and then to like figure out how to navigate that in a respectful way, like in an honest way, but also like not in a defensive way and like what does it mean to be trans? And like what would that mean? Most people can’t like transport themselves into a room of 12 trans folks and be the el cis person there. And so I think like your book is a great moment, like a great learning opportunity for folks to sort of like, see it through, like to see the world and to see gender and to see masculinity through this sort of specific lens that I think has a really universal application.
(25m 46s):
I know it’s been so meaning like the work of you and other trans folks has been so meaningful to me in my own sort of like gendered and embodied experience. Yeah. And I think that that’s like the biggest thing that I hope that this book does for folks is like, just offers the opportunity to reflect. Yeah. Right? Because I think that, I’ve said this before, but like one of the great gifts of of being trans is that you get to be intentional about how you inhabit and embody your gender. Like, because nothing is assumed and for me, like no one wants me to be a man. Yeah. And so I get to like be whatever kind of man I want because like, it doesn’t really matter, right?
(26m 29s):
Like, yeah, people don’t expect me to be in that space anyway, so like, I’m just gonna show up how I wanna show up. But I think that that’s been a real gift of, of saying like, oh, I can be this thing without having to like, to take on any of the things that other people say I have to take on And I can just like be myself. And, And I will say like, that has gotten significantly easier now that I primarily, you know, quote unquote pass as a, as a cis person, like that was definitely harder. It was harder to like inhabit myself in my fullness when I was still early in transition and constantly being mistaken for a gender I didn’t identify as, like, that was a lot harder.
(27m 15s):
But now that I’ve moved past that stage, it’s like I just don’t worry now, right? Like, I don’t worry if someone’s gonna think I’m effeminate or gay or whatever, like, that doesn’t bother me. But I wanna inhabit and embody my gender in a way that feels the most comfortable to me. And I, and that’s what I want for everyone, right? Like, I want everyone to be able to walk into a room and feel like they’re not policing their own gestures, that they’re not worrying about how they look or how they’re moving their hands or what their voice sounds like, right? Like that, that they can just show up and be seen as who they are and be welcomed in those spaces. And I think that what it takes to get there is for all of us to, to approach gender with more intention, and especially for men to approach gender with more intention.
(28m 7s):
Yeah. I’m, I think, I think there’s like something really wholly about the like reflecting and the like questioning and the, like, sitting in the uncertainty of it all. I mean, I, I know that like when I found the word queer, found the word bisexual, right? It like, I was like, oh, that’s like something that like makes sense to me. That’s just feels like it describes who I am. That is a way, like way by which I can find other people and like it, but even, even in that, right? Like, I don’t know, I’m like technically bisexual, but sometimes, like the word gay feels like more accurate. Sometimes the word queer feels more accurate, right? Like, so I kinda like hold all those labels loosely.
(28m 49s):
And I feel like with gender, like I, I I hold things even more loosely that like, am I cis? Am I, am I trans? Am I a gender? Am I gender queer? Am I non-binary? Like, for me at least feels like, like coming to a hard and fast like decision around like an ident like a gendered identity that is right for me feels less important to me as does sort of like holding it all kind of lightly and asking questions and experimenting and trying things on and seeing like, if I do this, how does that feel? How do, like, if I do that, how does that feel? How can I, what qualities in people in general do I admire?
(29m 32s):
What qualities in men do I admire? What qualities in women do I admire? What qualities in gender queer folks do I admire? What do I wanna sort of try on for myself? And sort of existing in sort of like a state of always becoming rather than feeling like I have arrived. And you know, there’s, there’s this, I know, I forget who said it, I think it was a Jewish, a queer Jewish per person was like, you know, we, we like say there’s a blessing in Judaism for, for bread, and it’s like, blessed are you, Adam And I are God sovereign of the universe who like brings forth bread from the earth. But like, obviously like bread doesn’t like literally come from the earth where it’s like wheat and flour and you have to, you have to like make the bread.
(30m 17s):
And there’s this, there’s this saying of like, it’s a reminder that like we join in the co-creation of creation like with God And I, And I know you’ve talked about like your transness being this sort of like, you take an active part in co-creating yourself and your gender and your body with God. And that is something that I have like taken on for myself in a less extreme way. I’m not like trans, I’m not on hormones, I’m on medication to keep my hair from falling out, which is like, you know, gender affirming care in its own way. But like, there’s something of this sort of like active ongoing process of like creating ourselves and creating ourselves a new, and the person that I am today is different than the person that I was a year ago and five years ago and 10 years ago.
(31m 0s):
And like, that’s like really cool and exciting And I don’t know who I will be in 10 years from now, but I want to get there with some intentionality. And I feel like the questions that you raise in this book are gonna help me, help, help me do that. I hope so, I, I hope that this book becomes an, an invitation to deeper conversation for folks, right? That it’s, it becomes a, that it’s a starting point, not a, not another manual of like ceremonial swords and parties that instead it’s like a, hey, how do we, how do we enter into these conversations? Yeah. So if folks wanna get this, it comes out officially April 15th, Amazon in particular, and some other booksellers in general sometimes send things out early.
(31m 46s):
So if you pre-order it, you might actually get it earlier. So hop on there now. You can get it anywhere books are sold. If you go to Queer Theology dot com slash books, it’ll be right at the top of that page. And there’s links to Bookshop and Barnes and Noble and Amazon to help you find those links quickly. But I know we’ve said this before, but pre-sales really help with authors in general. In particular, like new authors, newer authors, authors with marginalized identities to let the publisher know, to let potential booksellers know, like, this is a book that matters. These are stories that matter. These are types of authors that people are like interested in, in taking seriously. And like fortunately is a business, right? And so like, like, yeah, like queer authors get asked to write books because other queer authors sell books.
(32m 30s):
And so a think that this book is gonna be really exciting for everyone who is a man or is in love with a man, or knows a man who has had to work with a man. It would probably be more useful for, for men and masculine folks, but I think really for anyone. And also an added bonus of supporting you in particular and queer and trans authors in general. So Queer Theology dot com slash books to find all the links to No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, which comes out on April 15th. And if you happen to be in Minneapolis or thereabouts on April 14th, so the day before it officially releases, I’m gonna be having a launch party at Moon Palace books in Minneapolis.
(33m 9s):
You’ll be able to get the book a day early and I’ll be signing, there’s gonna be some special guests and some performances. It’s gonna be a really fun event. So if you wanna come to that Moon Palace books on April 14th and masks are still required at Moon Palace, so tuck a mask in your pocket and come on out. It’s gonna be really fun. Awesome. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.
The post Failing At Gender appeared first on Queer Theology.
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