Sara Showalter Van Tongeren is a licensed clinical social worker and therapist (and happens to be the wife of frequent pod guest Darrell Van Tongeren). She joins me to discuss religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and the process of religious belief change — areas where both Sara and I work with clients professionally.

Sarah explains that for many, religion answers fundamental existential questions about freedom, identity, isolation, death, and meaning. When religious certainty is shaken, this leaves people without tools to address these questions and creates a crisis of meaning. We discuss the importance of developing "existential resilience" — the ability to navigate uncertainty and both light and dark aspects of existence after leaving religious frameworks.

In the Patreon second half, we discuss embodiment in healing religious trauma, rebuilding meaning systems, and how therapeutic relationships can model healthy patterns of rupture and repair lacking in many religious contexts.

My instagram: @theexistentialtherapist

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sara-showalter-van-tongeren 

Group Practice Website: https://www.theflourishingco.org/ 

My website (no shoes): https://saravantongeren.com/ 

Therapist Centered Group Consultation: https://www.therapeuticgroupconsultation.com/videos 

Everett Worthington's work on Forgiveness with free handbook/resources: https://www.evworthington-forgiveness.com/diy-workbooks 

Highlights:

09:46 The Fluidity of Religious Trauma

14:50 Existential Questions and Religious Beliefs

24:55 Resilience in the Face of Spiritual Abuse

30:11 Coping Mechanisms and Grounding Techniques

43:30 Fighting Back with Cognitive Therapy

50:40 The Importance of Community in Healing

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In today's episode, I reconnect with Jim Wellman from the University of Washington to discuss his fascinating undergraduate course, "A Life Worth Living." We explore how Jim guides students through fundamental questions of meaning and purpose that are often neglected in contemporary education. Jim shares touching stories of student transformations and we reflect on our own spiritual journeys—his recent reconnection with Christianity and my parallel work as a therapist addressing similar existential questions. We discuss Lisa Miller's research on spirituality's neurological benefits, Kantian ethics, and Tom Holland's thesis that Christian values underpin even progressive movements. 

Throughout our conversation runs a shared concern: in a consumer-oriented culture that "flattens" human experience, how can we cultivate deeper sources of meaning? This conversation felt like a vintage episode—intellectually rich yet deeply personal.

Previous Episode with Jim:

The Surprising Value of Megachurches (#95)

Highlights

10:05 Exploring Meaning and Identity in Students

27:04 The Intersection of Spirituality and Science

44:15 Ethical and Moral Development in Education

01:00:00 Cross-Cultural Literacy and Understanding

01:08:29 Human Flourishing and Its Importance

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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I grabbed my teammates Josh and Joy for a bonus, impromptu mid-week episode on our real-time reaction to the news of Pope Francis passing, some general updates about the pod, and to talk through the results of our listener survey (with some more specific analysis for the Patreon community).

What do you think of the results? Do you agree? Disagree?  Let us know! ___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this episode, I sit down with Justin Brierley, former host of the UK-based show Unbelievable to discuss his book Why I'm Still a Christian and explore questions of faith, doubt, and religious identity. 

I share my struggles with Christianity in the current American context, particularly with the rise of Christian nationalism, while Justin offers his perspective from across the pond. We discuss Justin's approach of facilitating respectful dialogue across different perspectives, something increasingly rare in our polarized media landscape. We explore the distinction between general theism and specific Christian claims, with me expressing greater confidence in theism broadly than in particular Christian doctrines like the resurrection. Justin shares how his faith incorporates both intellectual and experiential dimensions, citing C.S. Lewis's journey from philosophical theism to Christianity. 

Though we run out of time before covering all the arguments in Justin's book, our conversation exemplifies the kind of thoughtful, nuanced dialogue about religion that both of us value.

Justin's Linktree | linktr.ee/JustinBrierley

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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I bring in my team members Josh Gilbert and Joy Vetterlein to check in on the state of You Have Permission and brainstorm future content directions.

We want your input too… take the YHP poll here to let us know what you want to hear in coming days!

I begin by explaining my reduced presence over the past eight months due to my demanding psychology internship (a necessary step toward licensure) and share how YHP's focus has evolved beyond evangelicalism toward broader explorations of psychology, religion, and their cultural manifestations.

Then, I have Josh break out the timer and we walk through nine potential miniseries concepts including Centering Prayer, TV/Movie Analysis, Therapy Modalities, Modern Perspectives on Central Christian Claims, and Theories of Religion series we jokingly dub "Call Him Sky-Daddy." 

In the patron-only section, the conversation wanders through political jokes, television

P recommendations and friendly banter covering a mini-therapy session for Joy’s fear of appearing on podcasts, Josh's appreciation for Jesus's teaching about removing the log from one's own eye first, and my dissertation defense (which I'd completed that very day). 

We love making You Have Permission and we’re excited to keep making the show with input from you here… so we hope you can take 4-5 minutes and share your preferences now!

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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I welcome back psychologist Dr. Chuck DeGroat to continue our discussion on narcissism in religious settings that we began in this episode in February. After recapping our previous conversation about the development and manifestation of narcissism in church systems, we discuss a troubling trend in conservative Christian circles: the demonization of empathy. 

Chuck expresses bewilderment at this rhetoric, suggesting it functions as "an apologetic for apathy" and reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of healthy, differentiated empathy. We distinguish between losing oneself in others' emotions (undifferentiated empathy) versus maintaining healthy boundaries while connecting (differentiated empathy), noting that the critics have created a caricature of empathy as completely ungrounded. This trend is particularly concerning since low empathy is a hallmark trait of narcissism, potentially creating environments where narcissistic leadership flourishes undetected or is even rewarded.

The majority of our conversation happens in the Patreon-only portion, where we explore different types of empathy, and discuss the challenges of identifying narcissistic leaders during hiring processes. We also examine whether power in church settings inevitably leads to narcissism, analyze parallels between narcissistic family systems and church communities, and address what individuals should do when they recognize narcissistic leadership in their church—with Chuck emphasizing the importance of therapy and preparation before any confrontation.

Previous Episode with Chuck:

All About Narcissism (#309)

Chuck's Website | Chuckdegroat.net

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this powerful return conversation with Heather Griffin, I revisit our popular "Mount Rushmore" of evangelical epistemology concepts: knowledge is easy, Bible facts, sincerity culture, and sanctified common sense. Heather shares her devastating experiences advocating for abuse survivors within the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA), revealing how institutional structures that appear to provide accountability often fail catastrophically. She describes the ACNA's unique problems where bishops operate with little oversight while clergy take vows of obedience, creating a system where speaking out against abuse can end a priest's career. 

The conversation takes a deeply personal turn as Heather recounts her husband Paul's near-death experience and the beautiful community response that surrounded them—creating a painful contrast with how that same community has failed abuse survivors. Heather's story highlights how even good people who demonstrate Christ-like love in crisis can become complicit in institutional failure when confronting systemic abuse, raising profound questions about spiritual transformation and institutional integrity.

In the second patron-only half of the episode, Heather details her disillusionment with Christian leadership after experiencing narcissistic abuse from a bishop she trusted, explores her crisis of faith in light of these betrayals, and reflects on finding new pathways to spiritual connection despite her profound grief and disappointment.

Previous Episode with Heather | “Bible Truths,” “Sanctified Common Sense,” & “Evangelical Insta-Trust: (#123)

Highlights

12:26 Advocacy Work and Institutional Breakdown

24:19 Challenges within the Anglican Church of North America

45:05 Navigating Spiritual Abuse and Betrayal

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98

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​​In this episode of You Have Permission, I speak with indie Christian recording artist John Mark McMillan and filmmaker Thomas Torrey about Thomas's film "Long December," which explores the story of a musician facing the painful question of when to let go of creative dreams. Thomas shares how the film emerged from his own career crisis when a major project collapsed during COVID, while John Mark reflects on his journey from simply wanting to "pay bills playing music" to desiring Grammy nominations. We explore the psychology behind creative ambition, discussing core beliefs about success, the importance of defining what "arrival" looks like rather than chasing moving targets, and the stoic philosophy that "the work has to be the reward." We wrestle with how identity becomes entangled with creative pursuits and the challenge of finding meaning and contentment whether or not our dreams materialize as we initially imagined.

Long December Film | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17633766/

John Mark McMillan's Music | https://open.spotify.com/artist/0T1KC0OHfbRO0O5bNH2tek?si=aj6GHoLIRxmLD0Un5XQf6w

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98

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Artwork by sprungle.co/

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Laird Edman, Myron Penner, and Kristen Tideman join me to talk about how psychological science has transformed our faith. We discuss how the cognitive science of religion has allowed us to hold theological claims with an open hand while deepening our appreciation for religious practice. Myron discovers that seeing religion as human-made deepens his compassion for believers of all kinds while Kristen's academic journey transforms her from would-be apologist to humble truth-seeker. Laird explains how efforts to 'debunk' religion actually strengthened his faith, and I reveal the counterintuitive way my research on spiritual abuse reinforced my appreciation for religious community.  Our conversation weaves through topics including post-hoc justifications for behavior, religious anxiety, church community, and the natural human propensity for spiritual experience—ultimately showing how psychological understanding can enrich rather than diminish religious life.

In the second Patron-only half of the conversation, we discussed church community, intergenerational relationships, embodied cognition, and the evolution of agency detection mechanisms.



Highlights:

02:52 Cognitive Science of Religion: Understanding Belief

12:07 Psychological Insights and Spiritual Growth

21:08 Religion as a Human Construct

41:19 The Role of Humility in Belief Systems

YHP Episodes Mentioned:

Episode 288 | Dan Made His Own Enneagram

Episode 253 | Still Christian & Way Humble About It!

Episode 191 | All About Ritual (with Laird Edmund)

Episode 80 | Myron is a Demon Skeptic (with Myron Penner)

Episode 41 | Cognitive Science & Religious Belief (For Beginners) (with Myron Penner)

Episode 39 | Psychedelics & Other "Spiritual Technologies" (with Sarah Lane Ritchie)

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this episode, Dan sits down with legal scholar and author Jeffrey Rosen to discuss his book The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined America. Starting from Rosen's background as a secular Jew who studied Puritan theology at Harvard, the conversation weaves through classical virtues and their relevance today to the American founders' surprisingly ecumenical approach to religion and morality. They explore the tension between Christian concepts of perfect holiness and classical virtue ethics' focus on finding the golden mean, with Rosen even sharing a song he wrote to help remember Aristotle's virtue framework. The discussion reveals how the founders were more interested in finding common ground between different wisdom traditions than enforcing rigid doctrine, leading to insights about religious freedom and the First Amendment. Throughout, they examine how ancient ideas about self-mastery and virtue remain relevant for navigating our modern pluralistic world, with practical applications from Benjamin Franklin's virtue journaling as well as contemporary approaches to living well.

Highlights

19:56 The Power of the Mind and Self-Mastery

27:35 Exploring Classical Virtues

34:17 The Golden Mean and Emotional Moderation

47:04 Navigating Pluralism and Moral Flexibility

52:23 The Founders' Vision of Virtue and Freedom

Jeffery on X | @Rosenjeffrey

Books Mentioned:

My Voice Will Go With You

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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