Joy Vetterlein joins me at the top of the episode to discuss the latest round of allegations against Michael Tait, and our evolving reactions and perspectives through this ongoing story.

After that update, David Zahl joins me to discuss his new book The Big Relief and his take on grace as Christianity's most radical contribution to the world. We dig into the Lutheran distinction between law and grace, connecting it to Carl Rogers' unconditional positive regard and examining how contemporary culture often delivers moral instruction without the container of acceptance that makes change possible. Dave argues that whether it's progressive activism or conservative piety, we're often just "shouting at people to change and then resenting them when they don't," while true transformation happens when people feel safe enough to be vulnerable. 

We explore evidence for divine grace through romantic love, recovery programs, and those surprising moments when someone sees us at our worst and chooses to stay. We also get beautifully sidetracked by our mutual obsession with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys as examples of pure gift. 

In the end, we're all just looking to be accepted exactly as we are.

www.christchurchcville.org/david-zahl

Highlights

35:58 The Role of Therapy in Grace

44:47 The Absence of Grace in Socio-Political Discourse

51:49 The Concept of Divine Acceptance

1:05:57 The Burden of Performance and Conditionality

1:10:47 Experiencing Belonging and Grace

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

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Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this episode of You Have Permission, I'm checking in with youth pastors to see how they're really doing—and the answer is, “Not great.” My guest Joel Foster, who serves at University Church on Pepperdine's campus, argues that today's youth ministers are working with the most anxious and depressed generation of teenagers ever, but lack the tools and training to handle what they're facing. We explore uncomfortable questions about who's entering the field and why, the psychological toll of carrying students' crises without proper support systems, and whether traditional youth ministry approaches still work for today's kids. Joel opens up about late-night crisis calls, the gap between what this emotionally intensive work requires and what people are actually trained for, and the creative solutions he's developed to support fellow youth ministers. 

Whether you're in youth ministry, have teenagers in your life, or are curious about how we're caring for the next generation, this conversation offers crucial insights into a field under pressure and what young people actually need from the adults in their lives.

Highlights

05:46 Stereotypes of Youth Ministers

15:05 Mental Health and Youth Ministry

30:56 Understanding Adolescent Development

47:21 Challenges Faced by Youth Ministers

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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This special live episode was recorded with one of the pod’s favorite friends, Daryl Van Tongeren, back in October at Theology Beer Camp.

We talked about how people make faith decisions without definitive proof, based partially on William James' concept of "will to believe." After we establish that Christianity can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt in our pluralistic age, we get into James's framework for "genuine options"—choices that are live, forced, and momentous.

Daryl explains the cognitive biases that make certainty impossible, and how James suggests we can reasonably consider pragmatic evidence when metaphysical questions remain unanswerable. We also get into some personal stories, with Daryl sharing how one inexplicable college experience survived his decade-long deconstruction after his brother's tragic death.

This was an intellectual yet practical conversation about how we can learn and choose how to live thoughtfully with uncertainty.

Other episodes with Daryl:

The Good of Religion Without the Bad

You Are Not Your Beliefs

Come to Theology Beer Camp 2025 in St. Paul, Minneasota!

Highlights

01:49 The Challenge of Proving Christianity

09:00 William James and Genuine Options

21:11 The Evolutionary Perspective on Meaning

42:15 The Role of Evidence in Belief

50:25 Living with Uncertainty

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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This emergency podcast responds to a new Roys Report article alleging sexual assault by Michael Tait of dc Talk and Newsboys, with my guest Tyson Motsenbocker joining to discuss both the details and broader issues at play, given our respective experiences within the Christian music world. We discuss the culture of secrecy, power imbalances, "adolescent" male culture, and normalization of predatory behavior in Christian music circles—issues that echo longstanding problems in both religious and secular music industries. I tell some horror stories from my early touring days on the Vans Warped Tour, and we connect this scandal to my research on spiritual abuse and religious trauma.

The article: https://julieroys.com/former-newsboys-frontman-michael-tait-accused-sexual-assault-grooming-substance-abuse-dating-back-to-2004/

Tyson's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/5zhKRxsS4pRPhkO6vbE07u

Tyson's book: https://www.tysonmotsenbocker.com/shop/where-the-waves-turn-back

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour, where I sit down with Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones to unpack everything from personal stories to shifting generational trends. In today’s episode, we kick things off by exploring my evolving relationship with cannabis and the lingering stigma that still surrounds its use. From there, we dive into the joys and headaches of homeownership as a way of celebrating Josh and his partner Emily’s first home purchase—comparing notes on which tools are actually worth investing in and which ones just collect dust.

Later, we look at the shifting landscape of religion and politics, especially how Gen Z is reimagining both faith and civic engagement in ways that often surprise older generations. And of course, we couldn’t avoid discussing the impact of COVID-19—how it reshaped our sense of community, morality, and what we expect from each other socially. I share how many of my college student therapy clients have mentioned the timing of Covid-era lockdowns as having affected their social skills development.

In the patron-only second half of the episode, we go even deeper, focusing on how Gen Z is navigating political disillusionment, their renewed interest in spirituality, and what all of this might mean for the future of activism and trust in institutions.

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this roundtable conversation, I reconnect with Joy Vetterlein and Jon Steingard (former Hawk Nelson frontman) to explore their parallel journeys of leaving Christian ministry contexts, building public platforms around their deconstruction experiences, and then making the countercultural decision to step back from that public work entirely. 

Both guests candidly discuss the complex motivations behind their initial platform-building—Jon's ingrained need for attention from his band years, Joy's readiness to stop letting others take credit for her best work—and the financial realities that made sustainability difficult. The conversation reveals how both discovered that the deconstruction community, initially appealing for its theological openness, developed its own orthodoxies and mob dynamics that felt uncomfortably similar to the evangelical culture they'd left. 

Ultimately, both chose privacy and continued growth over platform maintenance, recognizing the hidden costs of public work on family relationships and personal development. Their stories offer a rare glimpse into the decision to pull back from influence and attention in a culture obsessed with building platforms and growing audiences.

Previous Episodes:

I Don't Believe in that God: Jon Steingard (#75)

I Don't Believe in That God: Joy Vetterlein (#230)

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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My dear friend Ben Bishop, author of The Garden House Substack, joins me to discuss how fiction can help us imagine how people from different times and places experienced the divine, particularly through the novels of Frederick Buechner.

Listeners don't need to have read these works to follow our conversation—there are "no quizzes" here. Rather, Buechner’s function helps us strip away our accumulated religious assumptions. When we read biblical stories today, we're receiving them after thousands of years of theological interpretation, but Buechner helps us imagine what it felt like to be Jacob or Isaac in the moment—not as figures who knew they were part of some grand biblical narrative, but as people experiencing strange, terrifying, and wonderful encounters with the divine in real-time. Through his storytelling, we confront both the "offensiveness and the beauty and wonder of those stories" in ways that theoretical discussions simply cannot achieve, making ancient faith experiences immediate and visceral.

In the Patreon-exclusive second half, Ben and I discuss our shared adolescent experiences with Christian punk rock, its influence on our sociopolitics, social lives, and faith development.

Ben's Substack

Ben's pieces mentioned:

The Light Shines in the Darkness

Straight On Til Morning

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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I’m joined by my longtime friend Joe Rose, a partner at the law firm Gibson Dunn, for a wide-ranging and grounded conversation on the selection of Pope Leo XIV, the first ever American pope. We explore his background, reflect on the legacy of Pope Francis, and discuss possible downstream effects of Pope Leo’s ties to the Augustinian order. Along the way, we talk about grace, the ongoing relevance of Catholic Social Teaching, and how the papacy continues to shape the everyday spiritual lives of Catholics around the world, including Joe’s personal faith. Whether you’re Catholic or not, this episode offers insight into how tradition, global leadership, and theological nuance intersect in what is probably the world’s most influential faith community.

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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Sara Showalter Van Tongeren is a licensed clinical social worker and therapist (and happens to be the wife of frequent pod guest Darrell Van Tongeren). She joins me to discuss religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and the process of religious belief change — areas where both Sara and I work with clients professionally.

Sarah explains that for many, religion answers fundamental existential questions about freedom, identity, isolation, death, and meaning. When religious certainty is shaken, this leaves people without tools to address these questions and creates a crisis of meaning. We discuss the importance of developing "existential resilience" — the ability to navigate uncertainty and both light and dark aspects of existence after leaving religious frameworks.

In the Patreon second half, we discuss embodiment in healing religious trauma, rebuilding meaning systems, and how therapeutic relationships can model healthy patterns of rupture and repair lacking in many religious contexts.

My instagram: @theexistentialtherapist

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sara-showalter-van-tongeren 

Group Practice Website: https://www.theflourishingco.org/ 

My website (no shoes): https://saravantongeren.com/ 

Therapist Centered Group Consultation: https://www.therapeuticgroupconsultation.com/videos 

Everett Worthington's work on Forgiveness with free handbook/resources: https://www.evworthington-forgiveness.com/diy-workbooks 

Highlights:

09:46 The Fluidity of Religious Trauma

14:50 Existential Questions and Religious Beliefs

24:55 Resilience in the Face of Spiritual Abuse

30:11 Coping Mechanisms and Grounding Techniques

43:30 Fighting Back with Cognitive Therapy

50:40 The Importance of Community in Healing

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠ -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In today's episode, I reconnect with Jim Wellman from the University of Washington to discuss his fascinating undergraduate course, "A Life Worth Living." We explore how Jim guides students through fundamental questions of meaning and purpose that are often neglected in contemporary education. Jim shares touching stories of student transformations and we reflect on our own spiritual journeys—his recent reconnection with Christianity and my parallel work as a therapist addressing similar existential questions. We discuss Lisa Miller's research on spirituality's neurological benefits, Kantian ethics, and Tom Holland's thesis that Christian values underpin even progressive movements. 

Throughout our conversation runs a shared concern: in a consumer-oriented culture that "flattens" human experience, how can we cultivate deeper sources of meaning? This conversation felt like a vintage episode—intellectually rich yet deeply personal.

Previous Episode with Jim:

The Surprising Value of Megachurches (#95)

Highlights

10:05 Exploring Meaning and Identity in Students

27:04 The Intersection of Spirituality and Science

44:15 Ethical and Moral Development in Education

01:00:00 Cross-Cultural Literacy and Understanding

01:08:29 Human Flourishing and Its Importance

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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