We’re exploring the multifaceted nature of prayer by reflecting on our personal journeys and our evolving understanding of spirituality. There are so many emotional complexities tied to prayer. It can be powerful and so connective to community when we really look at it. And when you are able to queer prayer, this can help break down boundaries and really let you reimagine what prayer can do.
(03:46) Revisiting Prayer and Theology
(06:35) The Emotional Landscape of Prayer
(09:44) Community and Collective Prayer
(12:36) The Allure and Challenges of Prayer
(15:24) Expanding Notions of Prayer
(18:36) The Power of Shared Experiences
(21:34) Building Community Through Prayer
(24:42) The Role of Action in Spirituality
(27:34) Invitation to Connection and Growth
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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. We are excited to talk about Queering Prayer today. I feel like, I don’t know about you, Brian, but I have had a journey with prayer over the course of my life of different Yeah. Like ways that I believed prayer worked or didn’t work, or how it made me feel or didn’t make me feel.
00:00:56
And I’ve been, I’ve been working with, with some folks lately who have a very different view of prayer than I currently do, but it’s very similar to the view that I grew up with, which is making me like, I don’t know, revisit some, some thoughts on prayer. And so thought this would be interesting. So I, I, I’ll, I’ll start by sharing, you know, like I grew up in a tradition that really believed that prayer worked, and it was everything from like praying that God would make it sunny on the day of our, like church picnic to God would provide a parking spot to, like, prayer would make God forgive us our sins and, and get us into heaven.
00:01:40
And so it was very and Really quickly, like not to be too like pedantic, but like you, I already have questions. Like you said, we believe that prayer worked, right? Like, And I feel like a lot is hanging on and maybe, maybe I’ll get to that, but like I look a lot is hanging on the word worked. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was this sense of like, you, you prayed and you asked for things and God would do it, but that, and then even when it, like you didn’t get the answer that you wanted, God was still doing something right. It was this very like, twisted logic around. It was Like, God, the answer is he God always answers. It’s just like, yes, no, or not yet. Yeah, exactly. A line I Got and, but I, there was like a, there was both a safety in that right, of like, of feeling like you were heard and believing that God listened to every single prayer.
00:02:33
There was also a sense of like, I don’t know, sometimes whatever the solution was did feel like a miraculous intervention, right? Like I, I’ve heard so many stories of people being like, I needed exactly $500 And I prayed and like I ran into a stranger who offered me $500, right? It like God is, is actively working on our behalf. And so like I, I grew up with that and but also like baked underneath that for me was always the sense of fear that I wasn’t praying right? And not if I was praying too selfishly that God would not only not give me what I wanted but would gimme the opposite.
00:03:19
And like there were times when that happened And I felt like I was being punished because I was like selfish with my prayers, yada, yada, yada. Flash forward a bunch of years to where I was like, prayer doesn’t work like that. We shouldn’t be praying like that. That’s like a bad, that’s bad theology. It’s bad theology of prayer. Like prayer isn’t to get God to change, it’s to get us to change. And that’s, I, I’m, but now I find myself kind of somewhere in the middle, right? Of like, I, I don’t know, like I don’t know entirely what prayer does. I don’t think that like we have to try to like convince God to give us things by begging in prayer.
00:04:03
Like that is definitely not what I believe. But I do think that there’s something about like trying to tap into that which is bigger than us, that helps me like potentially reorient myself to what is already going on in the world. And, and sometimes I think it does like make me aware of things. It makes me pay attention in ways that I might otherwise miss. And then that sometimes feels like God is answering the prayer, right? Like I think that, you know, what’s that? There’s that old joke about a guy who’s like on a house and the yeah, the thing is flooding and a boat comes by and he doesn’t get in the boat and then whatever.
00:04:43
And he finally is like, God, why didn’t you save me? And God’s like, well, I sent you a boat. I sent you a helicopter, right? Like, I sent you all these things and you weren’t paying attention. And I think that there’s like that to me, there’s something to that in prayer. All of that to say that I also then think that like as I’ve, as I’ve gotten more settled in my theology and my thinking, I also see a lot of things as prayer, right? Like there, there like music can be prayer and poetry can be prayer and liturgy is prayer and extemporaneous praying, right? Like just having a conversation with whoever is out there is prayer and, and so is like swearing, right?
00:05:28
Like all of all of these different things, like all of this can be prayer. And so like that too, I, I think has, has led me to a more expansive, And I think that is where like queerness feels like it comes in of like, I can, I can pray and engage bodily in prayer and because I’m queer and trans like that automatically queers and trans is my right. Like all of all On prayer from me. Yeah. There’s like, like a blurring of boundaries and binary shown sort of like what is prayer? Yeah. It also reminds me of that like, you know, I wanna sing that’s, it’s that song.
00:06:08
It’s probably like Michael W. Smith or Jar of Clay. It’s like, like, like breathing out and breathing in before we start again. You know, that song in it’s let us Pray. There’s, if you’re listening and you know what song I’m trying to get at, it’s like pray without ceasing. And, and now when you get to the end, let, let us start again. Like, like it is a, a very conservative Christian song about prayer, but there’s also like, I like, I think that also if what you’re talking about feels like very queer and also it’s like, I do think that, like, I would imagine, I don’t know, I would imagine like Pope Francis also sort of feels like he prays in in times other than just when he’s like on his knees holding his hands talking to God, right?
00:07:01
That like, yeah, yeah. You like, you don’t, like, I think that queerness helps us to sort of like blur boundaries and break down binaries and forces us to reimagine this. Like, and also like, again, this is like what’s so beautiful Queer Theology, I think like everyone can, like everyone can sort of like queer prayer, reimagine prayer. I, I think like you, I’ve had a few phases of relating to prayer. I think like from childhood through, I don’t know, like somewhere around like 16, 18, I definitely had that sort of like there is a person that I call God, he dad, Abba, who is like listening can hear my thoughts.
00:07:41
I don’t even have to speak them out loud, who can like hear my thoughts and will like do or not do or give or not give the things to me, right? Like, I don’t know, sometimes I wanna like ice cream for desert dessert and my parents were like, we don’t have ice cream. Like have a cookie. Like I can have a cookie, but at least my parents for me, like at least there is someone, even if I don’t get what I want, there’s like someone listening. And because I’m a Christian and I’ve accepted Jesus, this person like in general has my back. Even if I like don’t always understand it in the moment. That was like my like v version one of Brian Praise. And then I think like around 16, 70, 18, certainly by the time I was 18 And I went to college as I was like realizing ’cause I was queer and realizing that that wasn’t going away and realizing that I didn’t want it to go away, I sort of like moved into this sort of like, and it coincided with my shift to my understanding of God is for like more agnostic.
00:08:34
Like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know, I don’t know like if there like is quote unquote God in quotes. Like, I don’t know, like if there is a God, if God is listening, I don’t know if God is granting or not grant anything. I just sort of like, I don’t know. And so sometimes I like wouldn’t pray at all or sometimes I would pray and just kind of like hope, like very stereotypically like, God, are you there? It’s me. I’d really like this. Or like, I mean my, in my co like 18th or 22, it was probably a lot of like, I think that it’s okay to be gay and so like that’s why I’m like dating or having sex, but like, if it’s not like I am listening, so like please just let me know and like I’ll, I’ll if I need to.
00:09:14
But there was, I definitely spent a few years being like, I think I’m on the right track, but like, if you want me to stop being gay, like give me a sign, I guess. And then I think like you, I moved into this like version three, which was like there’s no one listening, no one’s granting us anything. It’s just about like, if you pray that God will solve poverty, like inspires you to like give away more of your money or feed the people in your neighborhood or organize for better policies. Like it’s like you alone, like you are praying to God ostensibly, but it’s about changing you individually. And I think now I don’t think that there’s like a conscious entity that is like listening to my words, like on a telephone, right?
00:10:04
And I do think a lot of the change is happening within me, but I also kind of like, you think that like there’s some sort of like tapping into something and like, I don’t know, I don’t really think that there’s like vibrations that I’m tapping into. And if you think that there’s like, like there’s vibes like tap into tap into your vibes, right? But like, so I, I don’t know, like if you were saying it’s just sort of like I’m paying more attention and so I like notice things that I might not not have otherwise noticed or I say yes to things that I might not have otherwise said yes to, or I say no to things that I might not have otherwise said, said no to. I don’t know if it’s a, it like when I go in places that fuel prayerful, whether that is like a religious congregation or whether that’s like a community board meeting or a drag show.
00:10:50
Like I’m surrounded by people who share values or worldviews and so like I’m more likely to then be able to be inspired by them or lean on them or be supported by them. But there does, like now I do feel like there’s something that changes within me, but there’s also something really powerful about praying together and I’m putting all that in quotes, right? Like that could be literally like at a church service or if you’re Christian or like in a minion if you’re Jewish, like saying a sort of traditional prayer. But like it could also be like, I don’t know, like sitting around our Josh’s hospital bed as he was dying and like looking through a scrapbook with our best friends and his parents and like reminiscing like and holding his hand and like that felt in some way prayerful or like, I’ve already used this example, but like being at like a drag show or a gay bar or having sex and like, is that worship or prayer or both?
00:11:51
But like that there’s like something about the other people, this of it all that feels important. I know we were talking about this last week also, but there’s like this sort of like communal element to it that feels important that I really feel like only in the past few years have I connected sort of like the importance of community and like prayerfulness in particular. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I keep thinking about, you know, going back to my old views of prayer where it’s like you’re asking for what you want and trusting God will give it to you and then, you know, rationalizing whatever answer you get.
00:12:32
Yeah. Like I, I think about both the comfort of that, right? There is a real sense that you’ve got someone on your side and that It’s powerful and that, you know, miracles will happen. But I also just remember the feelings of like, well why did, why did God give that person the $500 that they need and not my family? Or, you know, why did that person get cured of their cancer? Someone from my family didn’t. And like how that has the theological and emotional power to, to like really destroy people, right?
00:13:15
And a real sense of like, especially when it’s coupled with like, well maybe you didn’t pray hard enough or maybe you didn’t pray with the right attitude, or maybe God is trying to teach you a lesson or maybe you were living in sin and that’s why you didn’t get the things that, that you asked for. And I think that like, this is why it’s so, so, so important for us to like really examine the theologies that we carry with us and the beliefs and the ideas that we carry with us, right? Because like that emotional response to prayer lingered in me, in my body for a hell of a lot longer than like the intellectual belief about that type of prayer.
00:13:58
Yeah. And so like, I think that that’s, it’s, it was so important to like do that work and I’m just like, I’m struck by because I’m, I’m hearing people talking about, about prayer in that kind of way, like every day these days. And I’m, I’m just, I’m struck by how the allure is still there, right? Like the allure of that kind of, especially when in moments when like the world is feeling out of control and my life is feeling a little all over the place. Like there’s, there’s a, there can be an impulse to be like, oh, well if I was just back in that space, everything would be clear and safe again.
00:14:42
And I just have to keep reminding myself like, yes, and it’s so, so bad for you. So like, don’t, don’t do that. But, but I do think like, again, it becomes then an invitation to to also say like, what is it about that that was so attractive? And like where, where are the places in me that either I need to like continue to do work of healing so that I don’t need that and or where are the places in that I can like engage in that kind of like, in something that will meet that need or that emotional space in a way that is healthy and good and that like doesn’t take me down bad, terrible theological places that like do damage to my psyche.
00:15:27
And so, and so I think that like, again, this is a, this is a thing you And I have say all the time, like the work doesn’t end right? Like you don’t eventually arrive at healed and whole and yeah. Like there’s no more work to do. And so like I think that this, like, we, we keep coming back to the things and things keep coming up for us. And so it again, like this is an invitation I think for me to like really reflect on what do I mean when I say prayer? What do I think I’m tapping into? What is the practice that is good and life giving and healthy and does lead toward wholeness? And how can I like really engage in that?
00:16:10
And I think that this is why over the last couple of years, probably more like a decade, like I’ve really loved reading, written, written prayers by other people because there is something of, you know, when you talked about praying together, like whatever kind of air quotes we wanna put around that. But there is something about like, if we’re all using, if a bunch of people are like praying the liturgy, even though we’re not in the same room, we’re like still engaged in that practice together. And like we’re, we’re orienting ourselves, especially if we’re praying prayers of justice or for peace. I do think that that like does something in the world, right?
00:16:51
Like if a bunch of people are orienting themselves toward envisioning a more peaceful world, committing to nonviolence or committing to being more loving toward one another like that is gonna make a, an actual physical difference in the world. Yeah. Whether we’re engaged in that practice physically together or like individually on our own. And I think it’s also an invitation to like expand our notions of whose prayers we’re reading, right? Like book of common prayer is great, but I also think that like, there’s a deep power in reading Col Arthur Riley’s Yeah.
00:17:32
Black liturgy’s prayers or prayers from, I, I have this prayer book that was written by someone that I went to union with who like collects prayers and liturgies from all over the world. And like there’s something about reading prayers from like a poor community of people who fish for their, their livelihoods, right? Like from another country that me praying that prayer, even though I have a very different experience, like it orients me in a different way. And I think that there’s a real power in that. And like, this is a, this is a time when I wanna like tap into that more deeply.
00:18:13
Yeah. I keep, I keep thinking about what you said a little while ago about sort of like the emotional response to prayer, right? And like you are intellectually reoriented before maybe you like totally emotionally reoriented and, and so like, you like intellectually didn’t believe that God was like giving that person $500 instead of you while you’re still like, can’t make rent this month. But like emotionally it felt like, oh, did I like do something wrong? And so I just like, I just wanna like go, I don’t know like go back and underline that. ’cause I’m, I bet you a lot of people can resonate with that. Yeah. And then, because I definitely went through that experience and for me there’s also like a second phase of like emotionalness where like, like when, when, when Josh was dying, like, which it’s, it’s still kind of fresh ’cause it was like f four, four years ago, like a month ago, two months ago, I both didn’t intellectually believe that God was curing some people with cancer and not his.
00:19:11
And I also like emotionally did not feel that either, like he didn’t do anything wrong. And so, but like in the like two years before he died when it was like very clear that it was terminal and in the, like the six months after maybe like I was still, I had would have like an emotional reaction when people would talk about either before he died, like I’m praying for him, I’m praying for a miracle, like to hold out hope, like never give up. Like God can heal. I’d be like, you motherfucker, that’s not how it works. Because like body is withering away in real time. He has like three tubes coming up and it’s fucking terrible. Like how dare you? And then afterwards, like, don’t, you know, like, or when people would like, oh, like I prayed and like God cured my, my mom or me or my uncle.
00:20:00
And I’d be like, that is fucking terrible theology. Like no, God didn’t like, I’d be like righteously angry. Like no God didn’t like, do you know what that says about like everyone in general and also particularly Josh, like, and now that it’s been four years, I think I can hear people say that and not get so emotionally activated, but I just like wanna name that like, even if you don’t believe in any five of you being that God is doing it, like you can still be sort of like trigger triggered, like activated about other people’s sort of like stuff around theology in general on prayer in particular. And I felt like I was like, I probably text you every single time someone said something like that to me.
00:20:40
And I think like that was, that was like part of it, right? Was to like recognize sometimes I would like be a little bit short with people if they said it to me either in person or in real life. But I mostly when I try to like be like, you don’t mean it like that way. Like you don’t have any, anybody, these are the best tools that you have. Like I know that’s not how it works. Like that can be good enough. And I would just sort of be like, okay and move on and like send you a three paragraph text. But so like how, like, do you have places people who in your life who both are like on board with you emotionally, that you can be your whole vulnerable self with that you can like vent to your trust friends, so you’re not like taking it on a stranger.
00:21:21
And you are also, I’m still stuck in this emotions and you were talking about like, it does sometimes feel like now that you’re around these people who are imagining porn, this like, god, like that does feel lovely. Like what if there was someone looking out for me? Like I think that we don’t have to feel bad if we think that sometimes, right? Like we don’t have to beat ourselves up for that. There’s like nothing wrong with it. It’s, it’s very human that like in a hard world to want someone even bigger and even more loving and even more powerful to have our back. And so like wouldn’t it be like, I don’t know, like wouldn’t it be nice like I think we can say like, wouldn’t it be nice if I could pray to God and like I just like really knew that God would like make my rent payment happen.
00:22:05
Like maybe it will, but like maybe it won’t. Like, but I wish I had that certainty or, and I’m thinking also about just sort of like beyond prayer, like, like afterlife. Like I really don’t, I don’t think that I’m gonna ever get to like see Josh and talk to Josh again. Like, and sometimes it’s like nice to like, whether I say it to myself or to my journal or to my partner or to other friends who knew him, like, man, like fuck, like I wish he was here. Or like, I wish he was looking down. Like I don’t, I intellectually don’t think that he was looking down on me, but like, I wish he was, or like I was just listening to the podcast episode so that we recorded like a few weeks after he died. It was right around this time of year actually the, the, the lectionary text was on the like post-resurrection exper appearances I think.
00:22:48
Or we just, I just brought that up because I was like sitting in his old apartment and feeling like, oh, like he feels like he’s like here still. And like I know that he’s like, not here, but like to, it’s, it’s like, it’s okay to use metaphor or or poetic language or to like, imagine if like I, you know, I remember my, before he died, my therapist would be like, you know, maybe you just like now when he couldn’t travel anymore, like you could just like have an afternoon like talking about like, oh, like what if he would like went back. It was also the pandemic. Like what if feel like we went back to fire island. Like wouldn’t it be lovely to like go to the beach or go cruising for guys or what place would we want to see? Or like, you know, that trip that we never got to take to France, like what would we eat? And at this point he couldn’t eat. He had like got obvious nutrition intravenously. So it was like, oh yeah, like remember that like pot roast you made three years ago.
00:23:31
Like, like it is okay to sort of like indulge our emotions and tell stories and use poetic language and metaphor and imagine and wish and dream. Like there’s like something really beautiful and human about that. Even if you as you intellectually are like, yeah, like he, like he’s gone. And also like I sometimes I still talk to him like, and that’s like a yes. And, And I, it also, as you were talking about like the wouldn’t it be nice if, if God like if if someone was looking out for me, I think that too is like an invitation to me to think about like, how do we be that for each other? Yeah. Right.
00:24:11
That there is this sense of like, yeah, maybe, maybe God isn’t gonna miraculously drop 500 bucks for my rent in my lap, but like maybe a bunch of my friends will, or like, maybe I can do that for someone else. And that like, I don’t know that that doesn’t get to your point about grief and loss and that Yeah. But, but there is, I don’t know, even in that it’s a sense of like, when you and your friends get together and you talk about what you remember and what you experienced with Josh, like that is a, a way of calling him back and recalling him and keeping his, keeping him alive in, in the midst of your community.
00:24:53
And I know that you’ve talked a lot about how much he taught you all and how you continue to live out those values together. Yeah. And that, that too is like a way of, of carrying that forward. And so I think that there, there is like the thing that feels so appealing about that prayer of like, it a miracle is just gonna happen, but it, it always required people, right? Yeah. So I think that the, the like beauty of, I don’t know, maybe the beauty of progressive theology or the honesty of progressive theology is to say, well, it’s always been us, right? Yeah. It’s always been up to us to like make that happen and to show up and to be be the justice, be the community, be the whatever in the world.
00:25:42
And like, I don’t know, we can, we can still do that. Even, even when things are the way they are now. Shay that is, I, I’m such a fan boy, I can’t believe I’ve known you for so long. Like, that was so it’s al like if, yeah, ’cause I like it was never in my mind, it was never a man in the sky intervening, which then means like, it’s always been us, which is actually like, God, I could cry. That’s like really fucking beautiful and like, I, it just reminds me of like last week, right? Also we were talking about like community and community care and effort and like, I feel just like infinitely lucky that I, like I do feel held by these like five guys that like we went through hell with, right?
00:26:28
And I’m aware that like not everyone has that and like doesn’t feel as held by their like this like beautiful queer chosen family that I have. And also I’m aware that like 15 years ago I didn’t, I didn’t know Josh 15 years ago. Like, it, like, it is not something that I’ve always had. It’s something that like partly I lucked into partly we all put a lot of effort in. Like, I, like I tell a story in my book, love Beyond Monogamy. Like I absolutely, like Peter met Josh, we like first met through a, like a dating and hookup app. Like I would’ve vetoed him if I had that power and like got him outta my life because I was like jealous and uncomfortable and like, but I didn’t. And like we grew up And I became one of my best friends, right? That like, it was not without trial and error and turmoil and heartbreak and you know, hurt feelings along the way.
00:27:15
Like, and also like a decade later, like we emerged or something really beautiful and like it took, it took work and like I had many other iterations of friend groups over the years, right? Like that I’m still friends with many of those people just like in different ways. And so like, if you’re like, God, I like I that’s like well and good Brian, you’re not this beautiful queer family in New York. Like, like that. Like it might mean taking some actions to go either meet some people or like deepen the connections that you already have. I just shared a Instagram post today from a black woman educator who was talking about like communal care and friendship and it was like, you have to stop splitting your lunches on Venmo down to the penny.
00:28:01
Like that makes your relationship transactional. You have to like, you don’t Venmo your friend to dog your cat, like you dog sit their cat there, there a dog one weekend, like the house pick up your groceries the next weekend. Like you need to sort of like, there are some things, especially now with technology and social media and sort of like on demand everything. Like, it is really easy to sort of like isolate and we really have to like push against the sort of commodification of every single thing. And that means like sometimes like I buy a this round of drinks and you buy the second round or you buy the round next week or like you crash on my couch, like crouch on your couch.
00:28:41
Like I pick you up from the airport, you pick me up from the airport, I ask you how you’re feeling. It’s vulnerable, it feels scary. Like I bet you were to my house for dinner. Like, I mean, we could, that could be a whole series or a whole like immersive something or other, but there like, it does feel like you, it takes action and it’s never, it’s like never too late to start my mom not to get too personal and share her shit. She’ll be, would be so upset. But like my mom has made some like really beautiful friendships just over the past like five years that are like super, super meaningful to her and she’s pushing 70 now. So like, it’s never like, there’s always time to, to start forming the community around you.
00:29:22
Friends. Don’t forget that coming up in the first week of June, we’re doing the Queerness Everyday Challenge. It is a six day challenge where we encourage you to do something to infuse and integrate your queerness and your spirituality every single day. And you can do it five minutes a day or less and have a great community of people that come around and come together to, to do this challenge. It’s only $7. So we would love to have you as part of Sanctuary Collective to Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge. You can find out more by gonna Queer Theology com slash challenge and you can also sign up there, hope to see you inside of Sanctuary Collective. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.
00:30:05
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