Queer Theology

Queer Theology

By Queer Theology / Brian G. Murphy & Shannon T.L. KearnsReligion & SpiritualityChristianity
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Queer Theology episodes

  • Pleasure is Political

    In this episode, Brian explores a provocative idea: what if your orgasms were a form of activism? In a world that often tries to make people (especially queer folks, women, and non-monogamous people!) feel small, ashamed, or powerless, reclaiming pleasure can be a radical act of resistance. Brian looks at how shame around sex has historically been used as a tool of control and why separating love from sexuality diminishes our aliveness. Tending to your erotic life can fuel both personal healing and political courage. In his own experiences from activism, relationships, and coaching, he argues that pleasure isn’t escapism or indulgence. It’s energy. Connection. And a big reminder of what we’re fighting for. If the world feels heavy right now, we invite you to consider that cultivating desire, intimacy, and even your solo sex life might be one of the most powerful ways to stay fully alive and engaged.

    Resources:

    • If you want to keep up on new episodes of Permission to Desire, you find the links to subscribe in your favorite podcast player here: https://pod.link/1876076895 
    • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community
    • The post Pleasure is Political appeared first on Queer Theology.

      17 min
    • The Story of Bob: an Interview with Steven C. Law

      For this episode, Fr. Shannon talks with author Steven C. Law to explore the life and legacy of Rev. Robert W. Wood, a WWII veteran, United Church of Christ pastor, and author of the groundbreaking 1960 book, “Christ and the Homosexual.” Steven is a writer whose work bridges faith and cultural engagement. His commitment to compassionate storytelling enriches “The Story of Bob” with insight and empathy. Drawing from intimate interviews and extensive research, Law brings to life Bob’s journey and activism that helped lay the foundation for greater acceptance. Steven shares how he met Bob at a moment of profound grief, how that pastoral visit became a six-year writing journey, and why Bob’s story of faith, secrecy, love, and moral courage still speaks powerfully today. He reflects on queer theology before it had a name, the cost of living in a heteronormative church culture, and the sacred risk of finally telling the truth about the love of your life.

      Chapters

      00:00 Introduction to Steven Law’s Journey

      05:37 Transition from Preaching to Literature

      11:00 The Impact of GLBTQ Experiences on Theology

      16:30 Bob’s Story: A Journey of Faith and Identity

      27:14 The Search for Meaning in the Aftermath of War

      27:51 Faith and Judgment: A Personal Struggle

      33:13 The Journey to Acceptance and Ministry

      44:53 Moral Development and Personal Conviction

      50:40 Love, Loss, and Legacy

       

      Resources:

      • The Story of Bob by Steven C. Law

      • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

        The post The Story of Bob: an Interview with Steven C. Law appeared first on Queer Theology.

        1 hr
      • When Jesus Came Out – Queering the Transfiguration

        In this episode, we answer a listener question and then queer Matthew 17:1–9 for the second Sunday in Lent. The Transfiguration as a powerful coming out story and when we reflect on Jesus taking his closest friends up the mountain, revealing something radiant and vulnerable about his identity, and asking them to hold that truth tenderly for a time, it’s an experience that resonates deeply with queer and trans journeys of self-disclosure. This is the moment of courage for Jesus and encourages us to also claim who we are even when the road ahead is uncertain or costly. The Transfiguration becomes not just a spectacle, but an intimate revelation, a holy transformation, and good news for anyone navigating identity, fear, and faith.

        Resources:

        • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community
        • The post When Jesus Came Out – Queering the Transfiguration appeared first on Queer Theology.

          19 min
        • Bible Nerd Starter Pack

          In this solo episode, Fr. Shannon is sharing his curated list of favorite books about theology, prayer, memoir, the Bible, and in-depth study- which is perfect for anyone looking to deepen their faith with a queer and justice-centered lens. He reflects on the texts that have shaped his theology and imagination and highlights transformative prayer resources. He also offers his go-to Bible study tools for serious Biblical-themed nerding out, resources that have stretched, grounded, and inspired his faith. Whether you’re brand new to Queer Theology, ready to go deeper, or need some reading inspo, this episode is packed with thoughtful recommendations to add to your reading list!

          Fr. Shay’s Must-Read List:

          • Black Liturgies by Cole Arthur Riley
          • Liturgies from Below by Claudio Carvalhaes
          • The Divine Hours by Phyllis Tickle
          • What Is the Bible? by Rob Bell
          • A Black Theology of Liberation by James Cone
          • Trans-Gendered: Theology, Ministry, and Communities of Faith by Justin Tanis
          • Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology by Patrick S. Cheng
          • Radical Reinvention by Kaya Oakes
          • Take This Bread by Sara Miles
          • Binding the Strong Man by Ched Myers
          • The New Interpreter’s Bible Commentary
          • The Jewish Annotated New Testament
          • Resources:

            • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community

              The post Bible Nerd Starter Pack appeared first on Queer Theology.

              15 min
            • Queering Lent

              A guided audio experience for this time of reflection and renewal as we work toward collective liberation.

              Signup at queertheology.com/lent

              The post Queering Lent appeared first on Queer Theology.

              3 min
            • Torah as Liberation with Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg

              In an inspiring episode, Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg (@rabbidanyaruttenberg) returns to the podcast to explore what it means to treat our lives, and our world, as sacred texts in a time of rising fascism, burnout, and moral confusion. Shaped by decades of organizing, she challenges the false divide between “religious” and “moral” behavior, reminding us that any authentic spiritual life must be rooted in dignity, accountability, and collective liberation. Drawing on Torah, the prophets, and centuries of Jewish wisdom, Danya invites us to reframe sacred text- not as unquestionable doctrine, but as a call to wrestle with, resist empire, and build just systems that protect the most vulnerable. She shares how spiritual practice expanded her activist imagination beyond the limits of our hyper-individualistic culture and why solidarity is the only way home. This is your invitation to fight with those texts, fight for one another, and remember that liberation isn’t symbolic, it’s collective, embodied, and urgently needed now!

              Takeaways

              • We have a moral and religious obligation to care for one another.
              • Moral and ethical obligations should align with religious beliefs.
              • The prophets were angry about the disconnect between ritual and ethical behavior.
              • Every human being deserves dignity and respect.
              • Engagement with ancient texts can lead to personal transformation.
              • The Torah serves as a guide for creating a just society.
              • Collective liberation is essential for progress.
              • Finding one’s identity involves exploration and community engagement.
              • Life itself is a sacred text worthy of investigation.
              • Solidarity across differences is crucial in today’s world.
              • Chapters

                00:00 Introduction to Life as a Sacred Text

                04:19 Moral and Religious Obligations

                08:12 Engaging with Ancient Texts

                15:14 The Journey Through Torah

                20:39 Torah as Liberation

                23:54 Activism and Ancient Wisdom

                33:56 Collective Liberation and Solidarity

                35:50 Finding One’s Identity

                39:15 Life as a Sacred Text

                Resources:

                • https://www.lifeisasacredtext.com/
                • Learn more about Rabbi Ruttenberg at https://danyaruttenberg.net/ 
                • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community
                •  

                  This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

                  The post Torah as Liberation with Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg appeared first on Queer Theology.

                  53 min
                • In The Beginning We Were Good

                  We’re going back to the beginning for this episode as we dive into Genesis 1–3 to unpack how dominant Christian narratives of “the fall” and “original sin” have shaped theology, politics, and our sense of human worth. Reflecting on our evangelical upbringings, we explore how starting the story with human failure robs us of agency and fuels passivity which can be religious or political! But what if we contrast that with an alternative framework rooted in original goodness or original blessing? The narrative changes and so does how we approach conversations about scripture, ritual, social justice, and the stories we tell about ourselves and about the world. How we interpret these ancient texts deeply affects how we treat ourselves, one another, and our collective responsibility to create a more just and compassionate future.

                   

                  Takeaways

                  • The concept of original sin has shaped many religious teachings.
                  • Traditional narratives often emphasize humanity’s flaws over its potential for goodness.
                  • Agency is crucial; waiting for salvation can lead to passivity.
                  • Shifting perspectives can empower individuals and communities.
                  • Stories we tell ourselves influence our understanding of the world.
                  • Recognizing inherent goodness can change how we view ourselves and others.
                  • Accountability is important, but so is recognizing humanity in all people.
                  • Political narratives can mirror religious ones in their impact on agency.
                  • Interrogating historical narratives is essential for progress.
                  • A new story can lead to a better future for all.
                  •  

                    Chapters

                    00:00 Exploring Genesis: The Foundation of Faith

                    08:27 Agency and Salvation: A Shift in Perspective

                    11:44 From Original Sin to Original Blessing

                    18:11 The Power of Ritual and Community

                    25:15 Reimagining Stories: The Path to a Better Future

                     

                    Resources:

                    • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community
                    •  

                      This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

                      1 (10s):

                      Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy.

                      2 (13s):

                      And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

                      1 (17s):

                      Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

                      2 (23s):

                      Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

                      3 (32s):

                      Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’re gonna kind of talk about Genesis one through three, but obviously that is a, that is a large swath of scripture, so we are not gonna read all of it, but I’ve been thinking a lot about how I grew up being taught kind of the purpose of, of Christianity, right? And, and how so much of it was rooted in the beginning of Genesis, and specifically in the idea of like the fall and original sin, right? This, this idea that everything was good and then humans screwed it up because, you know, we did bad things.

                      3 (1m 15s):

                      And like that is why everything else happened after that. Like, that’s why we need Jesus. And, and there’s this sense that basically all of human history begins with the fall. And, and that really shapes then how, how faith plays out, how religion plays out and how church plays out. And, and so this idea, I feel like we spent a lot of time in my church growing up talking about Adam and Eve and the apple in the garden, right? The quote unquote fall and, and the entrance of sin into the world. I’m, I’m curious for you, Brian, like what, did you have a similar experience with these first couple Chapters of Genesis?

                      3 (2m 2s):

                      Or like how, what was the, the vibe in your growing up?

                      1 (2m 5s):

                      Oh, yeah. I definitely grew up believing that Adam and Eve were like real people and that like everything was perfect. There was no death. They lived in harmony with God. And like had they not fucked up, had they not sinned, like all humanity would’ve been able to live in the garden of Beeden in paradise for forever, and also like a guest be immortal and that they disobeyed God. And in doing so, they sort of like cursed all of humanity for the rest of time. And so like, not only were we separated from God, like, was I Brian separated from God because I had sinned in my life, but also it was like literally an impossible for anyone ever to not be separated from God.

                      1 (2m 54s):

                      Because like from the moment we were born, we had where there was like some original Sid already in our nature that like a would sort of like force us to mess up and to go against God over the course of our lives repeatedly, that we would like never be able to be perfect. But even like if we somehow like, but it didn’t even matter because even from like the very first moment that we were alive, we were, there was already some sort of like separation, just like at our first crying breath, which is like kind of weird and morbid and, and ungenerous And I don’t love. But at the time I was just like, oh, yeah, that’s how it’s, and it wasn’t until college that I started to, like, when I started, started studying religion, and this, this passage is actually like one of, was we, we looked at this at the Croatian story in both Genesis and as told in different peop Christian books in the New Testament and in the Quran.

                      1 (3m 48s):

                      And that was when I started to realize like, oh, maybe there’s a different way of understanding these, these stories.

                      3 (3m 54s):

                      Yeah. It’s so interesting. As you were just talking about, you know, original sin being a part of us from the first breath that we take, it reminded me of all of the like really, really terrible parenting things that come out of evangelical Christianity, like focus on the family and all of that, which is like, you need to punish your infant because your infant is trying to manipulate you by crying. Oh,

                      1 (4m 21s):

                      Yeah.

                      3 (4m 22s):

                      Right. Like from the very beginning. And if you’re, you know, you need to, there was this thing called blanket training of like, you need to put your baby on a blanket and when they crawl off of it, like spank them for getting off of the blanket because like that is them trying to exert their will. Not like a toddler being curious. Curious. Right. Or like, yeah. Rolling. And so I think that like this idea that we are fundamentally flawed and particularly that it goes back not just to Adam and Eve, but like, let’s be real, the evangelicals are blaming all that shit on Eve Sure. That it goes back to like women, right.

                      3 (5m 3s):

                      Getting out of their quote unquote place. It absolutely shapes then how the rest of theology plays out and, and how like our ideas about humanity and the world play out. Because I, I, I think that what, what I was struck by as you were talking, it’s like we do have this sense of everything was perfect and everything was, was paradise in the Garden. And yet, like we never start there. We always start with the the, we messed it up part, right? There’s this sense of like, oh, sure, like paradise.

                      3 (5m 44s):

                      Yeah, yeah, whatever. But like, it was, it was like we were destined to mess up even when we weren’t destined to mess up. And I think that that’s such an interesting take. And I, And I think that that shows how prevalent the evangelical reading of scripture has become, even within progressive spaces, right? Like that, that we, we haven’t often done the work to really unpack all of it right. To, to figure out where it’s coming from and how it, how it influences everything else.

                      1 (6m 21s):

                      Yeah. I’m, I mean, so like one of the things that was fascinating for me was that the way, like that how, how it metaphor and description like shapes our understanding of things. And so like into Genesis, right? Like the phrase original sin is like not there right into Genesis. There’s like into Genesis, kind of like the serpent was first of all into Genesis, the serpent is not necessarily the devil it into Genesis, the ser was kind of right. Like they ate and they like didn’t die.

                      1 (7m 1s):

                      And so it’s like that like gets like added in later on a little bit in Judaism, certainly a lot more in Christianity, like these like additional layers get like get of meaning get added onto it. And that, I would say that like doesn’t necessarily mean that like one interpretation is like that you can sort of like get back to sort of like, oh, we just got back to like the original version of Genesis that we would find like this like pure egalitarian, non-toxic version of God. Like I think like Christianity is like, keeps some extra shit onto this. I mean, we don’t need, like, and also like all sacred stories are always like, the meaning is made through wrestling with the text and how the community understands it.

                      1 (7m 45s):

                      And, and so like, it says something about like us when we put this like extra meaning back onto it that like, we’re inherently flawed and sinful. And it also, I think like as we to think about this, like this particular political moment, like it robs us of our agency, like, you can never do anything, right? You’re hopeless. You’re like, you need us some external salvation, just like sit around and wait. Like there are some like really sort of like pernicious messages that it takes that that sort of take can take hold if we play those out to their logical end results. And so I think that’s part of the reasons why we’re so invested in a, looking at these stories and telling them in new ways and also like storytelling, the, the power of story in general to sort of like shape our beliefs about like what’s possible for the world and what’s possible for ourselves.

                      1 (8m 35s):

                      And we write new stories that like sometimes like these stories like get into our bodies and spirits without us even realizing. And, and so to your point, like what then shifts if there’s like another idea, like, And I know in Sanctuary Collective we talk about this all the time And I know you got some, some great, some great insights on it. So like what shifts, if we go from a place of we’re fucked up and beyond repair and you know, like total totally depraved to some other way of understanding humanity and God relationship to God.

                      3 (9m 10s):

                      Yeah. I I wanna go back just for a second before I tackle that is like, I, it’s so interesting that you talk about the lack of agency because I’ve been seeing that all over Facebook right now as folks post about like Minneapolis and whatever. There are evangelicals in the comments that are like, yeah, well your problem is that like you’re looking for the government to save us. Like no one can save us, but God. Or like, we’re in the end times, we just have to wait for the rapture. Or like a savior is gonna come and save. Right? There is, there is this real sense of, well there’s nothing to be done, someone else supernatural.

                      3 (9m 52s):

                      Right? Like something else supernatural is gonna come and like intervene. And I think that there is like, that is one very specific worldview which is shared by like, I think a lot more people than many of us would like it to be.

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                      3 (10m 37s):

                      But I do think that there is also this sense on the left sometimes

                      1 (10m 40s):

                      Yes.

                      3 (10m 41s):

                      Of the same thing of like, some democratic president is going to save us, like if we just vote in the blue wave, like we will be saved if we just wait and follow the laws, like we will be saved. Right? And I, And I think to like what we were talking about when we talked about Matthew, the, the gospel of Matthew a couple weeks ago, the sense of like legality and the system writ large to, to quote unquote save us is like also a way of robbing us of our agency. It’s also a way of like keeping us passive. It’s also a way of keeping us in line and, and not quote unquote acting out.

                      3 (11m 27s):

                      Right? And I think that that, like, that is really dangerous. It’s really dangerous on both sides to like be believing that something or someone is going to come save us, as opposed to like, we gotta save ourselves.

                      1 (11m 41s):

                      Yeah. And I I think also, even if you’re not looking, I think this hospital happens on the left liberals, Democrats, leftists, like, who aren’t looking for the government to save us, right? But like they’re, we’re waiting for like the next, next MLK or the next Malcolm X or the, or like who’s our cat? This everdeen gonna be to like sweep in and save the day. Or like, we also see like end times theology in, in leftists. Like, well if we just, like, instead of waiting for the apocalypse, we’re waiting for like accelerationism for like to all get so bad that it all collapses and we’re not waiting for Jesus to come back. We’re waiting for like the glorious revolution. And it’s like we just like keep waiting for like, things to get so bad that like Jesus comes back or the revolution hap quote unquote, like the revolution happens, right?

                      1 (12m 29s):

                      Like I read some quote recently that was like, what do you mean? Like, I’m like, you’re like learning how to, like, we need to like joke, people joke like, oh, I need to like learn how to like hunt. So like when the apocalypse comes and the quote was like, the apocalypse is here. Like we’re in it. Yeah. Like, like you gotta, like, it’s not, it’s not someone from on a high is not gonna come in neither like communism nor Joe Biden is gonna like save us from this. We like, we save us.

                      3 (12m 57s):

                      Yeah. Yeah. And so when, you know, when you ask the question of like, what happens if we think differently? I, I’m just so struck by if, if we shift from a space of humans are all bad and there’s nothing we can do about it, and so therefore we need as a savior this sense of like the, the fall and original sin. If, if that’s our starting point, we, we can’t see where we get to, but what happens if we shift to that sense of original goodness and original blessing? You know, there, there, there are some folks that talk about instead of original sin, original blessing and this sense of Community and communion with God and with divinity of a place of paradise, of a place where we lived in harmony with the land with each other, that that as a guiding principle starting there suddenly gives us a very different perspective and a future to dwell out of and to then say, okay, well if that’s where we started, well what happened, right?

                      3 (14m 7s):

                      What happened to us that we got away from that? Right? And also, how might we get back there as is such a different conversation than, well, we can’t get back there, there’s nothing we can do because we were destined to, to be ups from the start. Right? I think that that is a, that is a drastically different perspective on life and on the universe. And, and it is one that we see in scripture, right? Like there is a sense of in the, into Genesis one, right, that creation story where everything is good and everything is in harmony and humans are in, in communion with the divine and with each other and with the land.

                      3 (14m 52s):

                      And like that is the vision that we start from. And I think that for me, looking at the arc of scripture for all of the bad rap that and bad readings of revelation that exist, there is a sense, if you read that text correctly, of getting back to a place where we’re at in harmony with each other. We’re living in communion with the divine. There we are back in the garden, right? And, and that, that is the arc of human narrative and like, that’s what we’re aiming for.

                      3 (15m 33s):

                      Not the sense of we’re gonna get like raptured and taken to a new planet and like let this one burn and most of the people on it, right? That is a very different conversation than saying like, oh no, we’re trying to get back to the sense of original goodness. And like, what does it do? I think in myself, I I I am a bit of a perfectionist. I can be really hard on myself. It is very easy for me to be like, I can catalog my faults, right? Like, I can give you a list today itemized and ready to go. And, and that even though like I don’t believe in hell and impede substitutionary tonin anymore, like that sense of there is something inherently wrong with me that I need to fix is like still in my psyche.

                      3 (16m 22s):

                      So what does it do for me as a human to say, oh no, like you were born with a sense of original blessing and, and how do you then tap into that in order to be in communion with the divine and with other people? I, that like totally changes the game and totally changes the way that I think and conceive of myself and how I move through the world.

                      1 (16m 49s):

                      Yeah. Also, just like a quick spoiler alert, our book, our, our new book, which comes out later this year is called Reading the Bible through Queer Eyes, good News for L-G-B-T-Q, people from Genesis to Revelation. And the last chapter in the book is about queering revelation. And so keep an eye out for that later this year if you want some more querying of revelation and, and, and the good news that is found there with this idea of like original blessing. And I, like a, a few years ago I read a book by Desmond Tutu and his and his daughter Mofo Tutu called Made for Goodness. And I think about like, it is, it is easy to forget that or to stop a believing that or to let other ideas about yourself and your inadequacies and your insecurities like sort of creep in.

                      1 (17m 37s):

                      And I also, I don’t know, like perfectionists that like have high standards also. Like I wanna make the world a better place And I feel like I, like social justice is really important to me. And so I can see all the ways in which I’m like could be doing more, more, more, more, more. Right? And I think that like one of you And I Shea both really appreciate the power of ritual and spiritual practice. And one of I think the key, well a few, a few, there’s a few like reasons for that. We go into all of it in our resistance and resilience workshop, which is inside of Queer Theology. But like quickly, a a few of the main things are, there’s like something about imagining the way that the world like could and should be through the power of ritual and also like reminding our ourselves of our deepest values and our, our place in all of the sort of like the cosmic drama and, and who we are.

                      1 (18m 26s):

                      And as like folks listening like may or not know, I converted to Judaism a few years ago and one of the practices there is is like daily prayer. And I go through periods where I do it every day And I go through periods where I do it like a few times a week And I do go through periods where I spend a few weeks, but for the past, like, like month or two, I’ve been really like diligent about doing it every, at least every morning. And there’s like a few like prayers and blessings in it that like I have been finding like really speak to me and like there’s one about it goes, my God, this whole you’ve given me is pure, you created, you shaped it, you breathed it into me and you protect it within me. It goes on, right? Like this was like remembering that like I’ve been given a pure soul. There’s like a blessing that says like, like plus you Ed And I are God created over the universe who like has made me the image of God.

                      1 (19m 12s):

                      There’s things about like working for peace and being humble and working for justice and taking care of the sick. And so like sometimes I like need those reminders of like, oh yeah, like we’re, I’m starting from a good place, which does not mean like there’s no work to do that I like neither, I like, like neither that I like can’t like quote unquote like improve myself nor that I can just sort of be like, oh, okay. Like I’m good, you’re good. We’re all good. There’s like nothing to do. Like, no, like we’re all good. And also there are still hungry people, there are still homeless people, there are still sick people. You still gotta like show up for your community to like celebrate with them and warn with them. Like people are still gonna be born and they’re gonna die and they’re gonna get married.

                      1 (19m 53s):

                      And so like there’s still like work, always work to be done. And also I think we can be more effective when we come from a place of like, oh yeah, humanity is good and worth saving And I am good and have agency than a sort of like fatalism of like, everything is always has been fucked and always will be fucked.

                      3 (20m 14s):

                      And I think that, you know, this is, this is maybe the more difficult piece is like once we can get that for ourselves, this idea of starting from goodness, then we also have to extend that out to other people, right? And I think that in the, in the moment that we’re living in, that can sometimes be hard to be like, yeah, oh, they too are good. And also like something has gotten warped. Right? Or like their, the behavior is not, yeah. But I do think that that allows us to enter into a space of saying we can still see the humanity of the people that are acting in really inhumane ways, right?

                      3 (21m 4s):

                      It it keeps us from othering them in such a way that it excuses and allows violence to happen. And, And I think when we look at the history of, of how genocides happen, right? So often it starts with a with being able to completely dehumanize

                      1 (21m 24s):

                      Mm.

                      3 (21m 25s):

                      Whoever it is that is our target at the that particular time. And so I think that this sense of, of internal goodness of starting from a place of goodness is also a preventative measure that it it keeps us from going to those places where people’s humanity is, is up for grabs. Which is not to say that like we can’t hold people accountable or call them on their bullshit or say like that their behavior and beliefs and actions are actively hurting people. Like that’s not what it’s about. But it is saying like, we see the humanity underneath all of that.

                      3 (22m 8s):

                      And, and that’s hard, right? There are people who I don’t really want to see their humanity right now who I would rather,

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                      3 (22m 49s):

                      They’d be relegated into the realm of like evil or fallen or unsalvageable, right? Because that is easier than thinking about their redemption too. And it’s complicated, right? I I think of, you texted me the other day like, there’s room in heaven for Fred Phelps and sometimes you gotta punch a Nazi and, And I think there’s right, like we hold the tension and, And I like, but, but it is a tension, right? But I think it’s an, it’s an important tension to be holding and to be sitting with and to be grappling with. And I don’t have easy or comfortable answers there, but I I just think it’s important to me.

                      1 (23m 33s):

                      Yeah. I’ve forgotten that I said that. I, I think I stand by that. I, I think one, one of my hot takes is that I don’t really believe in like good people and bad people. And I think for many of the reasons that you laid out here, like there’s something about which is not that people don’t do bad or harmful things and don’t do like noble or helpful or virtuous or useful things, right? Like, but that there’s something about like when we talk about good people or bad people, it gets into this sort of like intrinsic inherent like part of them, which is just like protestant predestination, like played out in sort of like pop morality that like, I, I don’t find it useful for truisms.

                      1 (24m 16s):

                      One is, I think to your point, it’s important that like, even as people do fucked up things that we like acknowledge everyone’s humanity. Like, and also if there’s good people and bad people, we just like spend so much time it’s a distraction like arguing over whether so and so like was a good person or a bad person as opposed, which is like, I don’t know, even if it was true that some people are good and some people are bad people, it’s like ultimately like this, the moral state of their like internal, I don’t know, like soul, like, is fundamentally unknowable and it distracts us from being like, well, who cares if they’re good or bad? Like, did this thing that they do harm people, hurt people, fracture society, bring us closer together, make our lives better, et cetera.

                      1 (24m 58s):

                      And it can sometimes keep us from acknowledging all the ways in which like we mess up because like, well if I’m a good person then either I couldn’t possibly have done the thing that you’ve said I’ve done or I did do the thing that you said I’ve done, but it doesn’t matter because I’m a good person. And so you should just like ignore it, forget it, like not be upset about it, excuse it. And so like, I think, not not that I wanna get like by any means necessary about it all like the answers to by the means, but like there is something about like, it, like the impact matters. And so like I, I think that it’s much more useful to say like, what if we all, we either we all start from place of goodness or it’s just all sort of neutral.

                      1 (25m 41s):

                      I mean, I personally like starting from place of goodness, but like if nothing else, a place of neutrality and saying like, okay, well then like from there we can look to see like, does this bring us closer together? And I like enriching my own humanity and the humanity of these people around me. And I think that like we can, we can see, like, I just think about, this is a, maybe a tangent, but like I think about all those Christians who are like, well, there has to be God and there has to be Jesus. Because if there wasn’t, like, we would just all go around murdering each other, right? I would just, I would just be an alcoholic rapist murderer philander if it wasn’t for Jesus. And like the threat of hell looming over me. And I just think like in, in all the midst of all of the terribleness of all of the bad shit that has gone wrong in our country over the past 200 years, and then the course of human molest civilization over the past like 6,000 years, like when bad stuff happens, we, there’s like some sort of like inherent part of us that place that is like, that is original blessing that starts from a place like that is like made for goodness.

                      1 (26m 44s):

                      It says like, this is not right. And like the outpouring of people into the streets all across the country, like after, after the murder of George Floyd, like in Minneapolis, I see like as far as I can see protests, like we, there’s a sense of like knowing Christians, Muslims, Jews, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists. Like there’s a sort of like, we a sort of sense of like, this is not right, things are not as the way they are supposed to be. And I think that’s gets at the heart of the stories of Genesis one, two, and three that like these ancient people are looking around and they have this sense of like, the world is not as it should be. Like we have this sort of internal intrinsic sense of like, it should not be this way.

                      1 (27m 26s):

                      So then like what the fuck happened and the creation story and, and what genesis well, two and one went into are kind of like two takes on the same story that are, that are different, but like two into Genesis two and three really are sort of like this imagining of like, how did things get so fucked up? And I think that rather than being prescriptive or deterministic and saying like, well we, like we are always flawed, it’s sort of a sense of like that humans could look at the state of affairs and be like, this isn’t right. Something, something must have gone cosmically horribly wrong because like, this is not how it should be. I think points towards our like inherent goodness that like we just sort of know that this is not right and we know not only that, but that, that we like can and should work towards a better tomorrow.

                      3 (28m 11s):

                      Yeah. And I think it also points to the fact of like, it’s so, so, so important that we pay attention to the stories that we’re telling ourselves about how we got to, to where we are, right? And that’s both a religious story, but it’s also a political story. The political stories that we tell, it’s the stories, it’s our country, it’s the stories, right? Like all of these stories matter and they shape how we understand ourselves and our place in the world and our place in relation to each other. And so this is also a moment where I think many of us need to interrogate the stories that we’ve been handed, both religious stories and political stories, especially as white folks in the United States, but I think also as people who got American history in schools in the United States, right?

                      3 (29m 4s):

                      Like we need to be interrogating those stories because they shape, they shape our viewpoints and, and they were told for a specific reason in, in specific ways. And I think that like doing that work to understand that and to understand how those stories have been used and how they continue to be used is, is really important and is one of the things that can help us to imagine a new and better future. Like when we understand the story that we’re in and we understand where it came from, then we can start to say like, does the story serve what might be a story that will serve better?

                      3 (29m 45s):

                      Let’s go chase after that.

                      7 (29m 47s):

                      Amen. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

                      2 (29m 57s):

                      To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

                      7 (30m 5s):

                      We’ll see you next week.

                      The post In The Beginning We Were Good appeared first on Queer Theology.

                      30 min
                    • After the Arrest: Faith Under Occupation

                      In this episode, we return to our roots and queer the passage, Matthew 4:12–23 by exploring Jesus’s turn toward public ministry in the wake of John the Baptist’s arrest and what that moment of political repression reveals about courage, solidarity, and collective action. In light of the state violence and community resistance and ongoing organizing and protests in Minneapolis, we reflect on Jesus stepping into an already-existing movement, calling others to follow, and proclaiming a kingdom that disrupts unjust systems. We look at what is deemed “criminal” and the power of showing up, building local networks, and plugging into work that’s already happening in your community. We invite y’all to consider how faith, justice, and everyday acts of community care are deeply intertwined and how the light that dawns in dark places is something we choose to carry together.

                      Takeaways

                      • The passage in Matthew 4 highlights the call to action in the face of injustice.
                      • Resistance is often catalyzed by witnessing the arrest or harm of others.
                      • Community organizing is essential for effective resistance against systemic issues.
                      • Criminality is often framed by those in power to suppress movements for justice.
                      • Building community infrastructure is crucial for sustained activism.
                      • Engaging with local movements can amplify existing efforts and support.
                      • Small actions collectively contribute to larger movements for change.
                      • Finding common ground with neighbors can foster community resilience.
                      • The importance of showing up and being present in community efforts.
                      • Action is the antidote to fear and overwhelm in the face of injustice.
                      • Chapters

                        00:00 Exploring Matthew 4: The Call to Action

                        02:47 Reflections on Resistance and Community Organizing

                        05:42 The Role of Criminality in Social Justice

                        08:23 Building Community and Infrastructure

                        11:11 Engaging with Local Movements

                        13:55 The Power of Small Actions

                        16:39 Finding Common Ground in Community

                         

                        Resources:

                        • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community
                        •  

                          This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

                          1 (10s):

                          Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G

                          2 (12s):

                          Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

                          1 (17s):

                          Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

                          2 (23s):

                          Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

                          1 (32s):

                          Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. We are going to be digging into another Bible passage as we going back to our roots and querying a text. Today we’re gonna be looking at Matthew four 12 through 23. We’ve got some good words to say about it. So at first, I’ll read it from the common English Bible. Now, when Jesus heard that John was arrested, he went to Galilee, he left Nazarus and settled in Capernaum, which lies alongside the sea in the area of Zein and nep. This fulfilled what Isaiah, the prophet said, land of Zebulon and land Nepali alongside the sea, across the Jordan Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who lived in the dark have seen a great light, and a light has come upon those who lived in the region and in the shadow of death.

                          1 (1m 16s):

                          From that time, Jesus began to announce, change your hearts and lives. Here comes the kingdom of heaven. As Jesus walked alongside the Galilee sea, he saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter and Andrew throwing fishing nets into the sea because they’re fishermen, come follow me. He said, and I’ll show you how to fish for people. Right away, they left their nets and followed him. Continuing on, he saw another set of brothers James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat with Zebedee. Their father repairing their nets. Jesus called them and immediately they left their boat and their father and followed him. Jesus traveled throughout Galilee teaching and their synagogues. He announced the good news of the kingdom and healed every disease and sickness among people.

                          1 (1m 59s):

                          Alright, Shay, we did a deep dive on the gospel of Matthew a few years ago. We’ll link to that series in the show notes of this episode, But we wanted to like revisit this passage today. And so there’s a lot in here in just a few short verses. There’s a few stories here. And so what, what jumps out for you today?

                          3 (2m 18s):

                          Yeah, I mean, you know, as we’re recording this, we’ve been watching the events unfold in Minneapolis over the last weeks now, but especially heightened over the last weekend with yet another murder by ice agents in the streets. And just thinking about like, you know, I lived in Minneapolis for 12 years, so it’s, it’s really wild and heartbreaking and terrifying to be watching everything that’s happening, especially now that I’m not there anymore. I was texting you the other day, Brian, right? Like, there’s all of this footage of in, of people in front of restaurants that we used to go to all the time or in front of our apartment building, and it’s just, it’s so surreal.

                          3 (3m 2s):

                          And also the folks in Minneapolis are doing such an incredible job organizing and resisting and fighting back against this terrible occupation. And it’s so easy for me to like see the parallels as we read this passage, right? I, I’m so struck by, I’m so struck by the fact that this passage starts out with, after John was arrested, Jesus did X, Y, Z, right? There’s this sense of Jesus maybe being on the periphery of the movement, maybe watching the movement and seeing his friend, his cousin get arrested.

                          3 (3m 46s):

                          And that being the thing that kind of like mobilizes him, catalyzes him to get involved. Our friend, the Reverend l Dowd had this thing as she was preparing to preach on this passage she posted on Facebook. She said, repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near, which is Jesus quoting John in Galilee as he begins his public ministry in res in response to John’s arrest. This is still l saying, I cannot stop thinking about what an absolute power move it is to go to the turf of the tyrant who just arrested your comrade for speaking out and to start out your ministry by quoting that same arrested comrade. And I think that’s such a beautiful, beautiful reflection on this passage.

                          3 (4m 28s):

                          And I think that that’s also right what we’re seeing in Minneapolis, that every time someone gets arrested or taken away or murdered, like more people show up in that very same spot with the same, same kind of energy and commitment. And I, I’m just really struck by that and, and by the parallels to this passage. So that’s kind of the first thing that comes up for me.

                          1 (4m 52s):

                          Yeah, I, I, I was watching an Instagram real earlier today and someone was talking about like, you might have noticed, like usually apolitical like fitness influencers and organic food, like girlies and like those folks like starting to post like about what’s happening in Minneapolis. And her like reflection on that was like, I don’t know man, like where have you been? And also like, okay, like if this, the moment that like wakes you up, this is the moment that wakes you up. And so like it’s, I don’t know, it’s easy for me. Like I got radicalized in like 2006, 2007 to be like, yeah, I’ve been here.

                          1 (5m 36s):

                          But it’s like different things for different people at different times. And so even Jesus that like, I think there could have been a moment where the, the movement that could have been like, where have you been? Like we’ve been living under Roman occupation your whole life. Like it took, it took John getting arrested for you to wake up, but like for whatever, like he came of age, he became publicly aware. It affects on like whatever it was like that was a moment for him. And so I think like whatever the moment is for you to like, the best time was a long time ago that the second best time is right now today to just sort of get involved. And like, I think when you were talking about people getting arrested or people getting shot and then like people to descend upon that with the same energy.

                          1 (6m 15s):

                          And I like, that’s true. And also like none of that happens on its own or by accident. Like that happens because like people choose to put their bodies out there. And so like, it, like it won’t happen unless people get ballsy and go. And so like, and maybe it’s protest for you, like maybe it’s not protest for you, but like, you know, like MLK Jr quoted, I think it was Theodore Parker, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. And like, this is one of those moments where I think I like disagree with MLK that like, it doesn’t bend itself on, on its own. Like I believe that love wins And I believe that we will defeat white Christian nationalism and, and the encroaching fascism in the US.

                          1 (6m 56s):

                          Like, and also it’s like not gonna happen because like a god in the sky saves. It’s because it’s going to be like the God in our midst. The God that appears when we join together each other is what stops it. So like in all the ways that we can resist in the streets by talking to our family, by meeting our neighbors, by calling our politicians, by showing up at food banks, like in all of the ways, like we actually have to like make the choice to take the action is one thing that that shows up. And I, And I’m also struck by the arrest part, and as we’re seeing people getting arrested, the narrative being framed of like they were resisting arrests, they were impeding arrests, trying to say like, the immigrants that they’re going after are criminals and have they broken the law that this like narrative of like law and order and criminality is like leveraged against us to try and like normalize all of the violence that’s happening.

                          1 (7m 56s):

                          And like, I think we need to not buy into that because the people in power could just change what is legal who was a criminal, right? Like, like that’s how it works, right? Like everything that happened in Nazi Germany was legal, right? Like they, they changed the laws to make it such, and so like we have to get comfortable saying like, it’s not just that they like don’t deserve to be shot, arrested, deported, et cetera, because like they’re innocent. It’s because like no one deserves that because like the laws will change such that queer people and trans people become sex offenders just for existing in public. That if you like help your friend in a state where like gender affirming medication and hormones have been restricted.

                          1 (8m 38s):

                          If you help ’em get that medication now you’re like a drug dealer. If you help a friend travel to a state where they can get an abortion, like now you’re a human trafficker, right? And so we have to be like really wary of even these like categories of criminals that, like criminals, quotes that seem really horrific, drug dealers, sex trafficker, et cetera, like sex offender. Like those are not necessarily these like horrific monsters that we make them out to be. Sometimes it’s like the mom helping her daughter like get her, get her hormones. And so like, and, and we see this like throughout the Hebrew Bible and the Christian scripture is like John was arrested and executed. Jesus was arrested and executed most of the early, like most of the disciples were like arrested and executed.

                          1 (9m 22s):

                          Paul was put in jail. Like criminality is like waged against people who follow trying to sort of bring about the kingdom of God on earth as in heaven. And, and so like, it’s not a new or radical thing to say, like sometimes you’re gonna go up against the powers that be. So we have to get comfortable like doing illegal things or, or providing age people who are doing things that an unjust system calls illegal, right?

                          3 (9m 49s):

                          Yeah. Yeah. And, And I think, I think you’re exactly right. You know, I’ve been working more with it with people in, in the prison system and so many of the times when I hear their stories it’s like, oh, you have this label or this charge or this crime, like that is not at all what you did, right? Like, or that is not at all like what we conceive of when we hear of that crime. And there are so many things that play into that, like poverty and race and gender and homophobia and transphobia. And so I think, I think that you’re exactly right and, And I think that even as someone who is pretty aware, like that has been really eye-opening to, to sit with people and hear their stories and then to like have their cry and be like, wait, wait, why?

                          3 (10m 42s):

                          What are you, what are you talking about? Like, this is what is nuts. And I think too that there is something too to be said, like in in addition to like, this work won’t happen unless we show up and make it happen. It’s also that this in Minneapolis has been building and this is a community that is like filled with organists and organizers and activists and people who like do community organizing in a way that I’ve not seen in a lot of other places, right? Like it’s just so baked into the DNA of, of that city and it’s, they’ve been building this infrastructure for at least a decade, right?

                          3 (11m 28s):

                          And so I think that that is also important to remember, you know, we talk about like, it would’ve been good for everyone to be building this infrastructure a decade ago, but now we have to build it right now. And so like, you know, figuring out, like, you might not be able to get a response like Minneapolis in your community, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything, right? That there is an infrastructure to be built. And it’s important that we learn from the people that are doing it. Like I’m, I’m really struck often by the fact that like Jesus, the way that we often talk about it, right, is that Jesus like started a new movement, but the reality is that Jesus stepped into a movement that already existed and like amplified what was happening and picked up a mantle from John who was probably a mentor to him.

                          3 (12m 18s):

                          And so like as you think about how you might get involved, like one of the things that I’m thinking a lot about is like, who am I learning from? Who’s mantle am I picking up? How am I entering into community that’s already there? Like, one of my things in the past has been like, well, I’m just gonna like start a new organization. And I’ve had really had to learn to be like, no, you should tap into what already exists. I mean, sometimes it is true that there is nothing and you have to start it, right. And also often there is something and like you can enter into it and figure out how to support it and how to plug in where you are.

                          3 (12m 58s):

                          And, and like you said, like that doesn’t necessarily mean protesting, right? There are so many things that are happening on the ground in Minneapolis of like people delivering food, people sorting food that’s been donated, people standing on their street corners, people driving kids to school, right? Like people providing childcare. Like there are so many different ways, but it does involve like knowing your neighbors and figuring out how to get more involved. And I think that that’s, that’s really important and something that like we should all be thinking about right now.

                          1 (13m 33s):

                          Yeah, I think for me, when I think about the ways in which that I sort of get involved in the work offline is it’s like a two-pronged approach that there’s like you were saying, like plugging into formal organizations that are already doing the work, have been doing the work, have been doing the work for a long time, and there’s like so many issues. Like there’s something for everyone, right? And so you can’t actually, here’s like the good news. It’s both, it’s both scary news and good news. Like you, you dear listener, like can’t actually solve every single one of the world’s problems. You actually can’t even solve one of them all on your own, right? And so you can like, just like, you can just like let go of the notion that you have to fix it all.

                          1 (14m 13s):

                          And so like what you can do is like find a thing or a few things that are meaningful to you, that are accessible to you that like you have, but that you can be useful to and like go do those things. So like follow your curiosity when it comes to like, whether it’s homelessness or like women’s rights or domestic violence or abortion access or healthcare or like environmental justice, community gardens, like whatever it might be. There’s so many different things. And like go go find an organization to, to volunteer at, to learn from, to like attend a session at whatever it might be.

                          1 (14m 56s):

                          Informal networks, like folks, groups happening out of churches or synagogues, food banks. Like there’s just so many different ways to get involved. And then also to your point, like there’s also like an an informalness to it. Like, like meet your neighbors, like exchange phone numbers with your neighbors, talk to your neighbors, have your neighbors over for dinner. Like yes, it’s good to have community potluck. So like with your poly Q or with your queer chosen family and to sort of like get on the subway or like drive to the other side of town to like meet up with folks. Like yes, do that also, like strengthen your friendships and your extended like community. Like, and also like your literal next door neighbor. Like do you know their name? Because like those bonds of like knowing the people nearby contribute to a sort of sense of like rootedness and to togetherness.

                          1 (15m 47s):

                          I was just reading this book about like convenience and how we get so many of us are like optimizing our lives for convenience. We like order our products, our like close online. We like order our groceries for pickup. We like order our takeout off of an app. Or even if we’re going in for like our delivery on an app, even if we’re going in for takeout, we’re like order online. And that there actually is something about like buying your screws from like the hardware store going to the same pizza place and the guy knowing your name, like going to the tailor and having the tailor know you as opposed to just like buying a new clothes from Amazon or Zara or Costco every time you need something new. Which is like, not to say that you’re like friends with your tailor or the cashier or whatever, but there is a sense of like, oh yeah, I brought your package.

                          1 (16m 31s):

                          Like I live in an apartment building, so like I, like if I see someone has a package on a floor, I’m not going upstairs, but like on my floor below, I’ll like bring the package up so that they don’t have to come down to get it right. Like saying just like there’s a sense of like knowing and being accessible to the people around you that like changes your relationship with place and your like sense of safety and community and danger and belonging. And so like I think that there is also yes, like sign the petitions, right? Your lawmakers show up to the protests, volunteer at the food banks, give the money, whatever it is. Like, and also there’s something to be said about like throwing a block party for your six neighbors on your street.

                          3 (17m 15s):

                          Yeah. And I think that what’s so important about that to me is that I don’t necessarily have to be BFFs with any of those people, right? I I don’t even have to share ideological ideas or, or agree or vote the same. Right? And also we can still show up for each other When it comes to community things. Right? And, And I think that that too is how we break down some of the silos and some of the echo chambers on both sides to, to be able to be in community with people. And again, like this doesn’t mean that we agree, it doesn’t mean that those differences in beliefs don’t matter, but it does mean that like there are things that we can work together on even when we don’t agree.

                          3 (18m 5s):

                          Yeah. And there are ways that we can look out for each other even when we don’t agree, which can be really scary, I think to think about and can be really scary to like put yourself in a position where you’re like, I, I don’t, it feels safer to not know my neighbors or to be anonymous, but that’s like, it’s not actually safer, right? And so that’s something that I’ve had to wrestle with a lot. Like I I live in a rural community in a red state and like that’s complicated. And also it does matter that I know my neighbors and that I am able to figure out how to be in community with people.

                          1 (18m 41s):

                          Yeah. And you know, you see this also in, to bring it back to the Bible for a second, like the early church that like it as recorded in scripture, right? They’re wrestling with like different points of view within the movement and not that like the tent needs to be so big that we like lose sense of our like moral center. Like, and also like there are sometimes that we’re going to like either disagree about tactics or we’re going to have slightly different values. And so like figuring out like how do we stay connected to community and working towards a common goal while also like, just like recognizing that like we’re all, we’re all individual humans on our various journeys and we all bring like unique perspectives to things. And so yeah, I mean I think like it is a, it is a bizarro time and like, I don’t know, this is probably like the 17th time on the podcast in the past 15 years that we’ve said like, this is a bizarro time, right?

                          1 (19m 35s):

                          Like one of the things is that like, like there’s, there’s always some injustice and this is not new, right? Like maybe it’s affecting, maybe it’s getting new coverage, more coverage, different coverage. It’s affecting more people, whiter people. But like there’s always been injustice and especially for immigrants, for people of color, for queer people, this sort of like state violence is like not new. And also like we have to do something about it. And I think there’s, it can feel overwhelming And I think like, you know, like the antidotes to that, the antidote to fear aren’t overwhelm is action. And so whatever the small simple action that you can do it all, it all matters.

                          1 (20m 18s):

                          ’cause like collectively, we have a lot of power.

                          4 (20m 22s):

                          The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for BTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

                          2 (20m 31s):

                          To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

                          4 (20m 39s):

                          We’ll see you next week.

                          The post After the Arrest: Faith Under Occupation appeared first on Queer Theology.

                          21 min
                        • Butt Sex, Baptism, and the Divine with Rev. Alba Onofrio

                          In this episode, Brian is joined by the inimitable Reverend Sex @reverand_sex (Alba Onofrio), executive director of Soulforce (@souforceorg), for a conversation about queer faith, spiritual violence, and the liberative possibilities of sex-positive theology. Rev. Alba Onofrio is a theologian and spiritual activist rooted in the U.S. South, engaged in human rights work for over two decades throughout the U.S. and Latin America. As a queer, feminist Christian pastor, their ministry moves at the intersections of religion, gender, and sexuality to heal the wounds of spiritual violence and weaponized religion. Also known as Reverend Sex and co-founder of the Sexual Liberation Collective, their global education work seeks to eradicate shame and fear around bodies and sex, reclaiming pleasure and desire as sacred centers of knowledge, healing, and spiritual practice. As Executive Director and Spiritual Strategist of Soulforce, Rev. Alba has published liberatory theological resources uncovering the ideologies of white Christian Supremacy. Their work has been translated into seven languages and shared around the world. Brian and Rev. Alba talk about Soulforce’s evolution from direct action to global culture-change work and unpack the realities of white Christian supremacy. They get into how it is important to name the lasting harm, and healing, around weaponized religion. Rev. Alba shares how moving beyond deconstruction into reconstruction opens up conversations about consent, pleasure, bodily autonomy, and finding the divine everywhere from drag worship to kink spaces, while also highlighting Soulforce’s projects like Shameless Theology and an upcoming book on spiritual violence. 

                          Resources:

                          • Learn more about Soulforce at: https://soulforce.org/ 
                          • Learn more about Rev. Sex | Alba Onofrio https://www.reverendsex.com/about 
                          • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community/
                          • This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

                            1 (10s):

                            Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy.

                            2 (13s):

                            And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from

                            1 (17s):

                            Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

                            2 (23s):

                            Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

                            1 (33s):

                            Reverend Alba Onofrio is a theologian and spiritual activist rooted in the US South, engaged in human rights work for over two decades throughout the US and Latin America. As a queer feminist Christian pastor, their ministry moves at the intersections of religion, gender, and sexuality to heal the wounds of spiritual violence and weaponized religion. Also known as Reverend Sex and Co founder of The Sexual Liberation Collective. Their global education work seeks to eradicate shame and fear around bodies and sex, reclaiming pleasure and desire as sacred centers of knowledge, healing, and spiritual practice. As Executive Director and Spiritual Strategist of Soulforce, Reverend Alba has published liberatory Theological Resources on uncovering the theologies of white Christian Supremacy.

                            1 (1m 16s):

                            Their work has been translated into seven languages and shared around the world. And as you will hear In this episode, Soulforce shares a special place in my heart as it is one of the places in which I came back to faith. And what I learned there has informed much of my work and activism and spirituality since then. And so I’m so excited for you to hear this conversation with Reverend Sex. Abba, thank you so much for being here where it’s really exciting to have the Reverend Sex on the Queer Theology Podcast. So thank you for being here.

                            3 (1m 47s):

                            It is a pleasure and a delight. I’ve been waiting for my invitation with Baited Breath forever, so I’m glad to be here with you.

                            1 (1m 55s):

                            Yeah, and as, as you know and as like many of the listeners know, like I think Soulforce is what really like radicalize me, if you will. And so there’s definitely like a before Soulforce and after Soulforce. And so I’m so like, I’m just so jazzed I talk about your organ, what the organization that you are now of executive director of, I mean, have been for over a decade so much. And so I’m so glad that we’re able to have you here on the podcast with us.

                            3 (2m 18s):

                            Yes. I’m glad we could ruin you in the best way. Yes.

                            1 (2m 21s):

                            I was saying before we started recording you like really like talked, but like in a, in a delightful, delightful way.

                            3 (2m 26s):

                            Yes. Yeah, yeah, it is like that sometimes. So

                            1 (2m 29s):

                            For folks who don’t know already, like what is soulforce and relatedly like what is this like Reverend sex project or persona that you’ve got going on?

                            3 (2m 39s):

                            Oh my goodness. Big questions. I’ll try to, I know it’s like standing

                            1 (2m 41s):

                            On one

                            3 (2m 42s):

                            Leg. Short order.

                            1 (2m 43s):

                            Yeah.

                            3 (2m 45s):

                            Soulforce has been around for almost three decades now and we started as kind of a rabble rousing, wholly trouble making, calling attention to the issue of lgbtqia plus inclusion in Christian college campuses, in church denominations across the board, but on the heels of a very famous book that was written by our founder Reverend Dr. Mel White and his husband Gary Nixon. And that came out, it was about being gay and Christian in America called Stranger at the Gate. And that got so much publicity and press that this kind of communication strategy of calling a lot of attention to this issue through not being scared of the Bible and not being scared of theology and being willing to take our actual bodies into conservative Christian spaces to try to have dialogue that proved that we were willing to engage and honest and earnest in what we wanted to talk about.

                            3 (3m 44s):

                            That’s how we started. Lots of civil disobedience, lots of colleges shut down. You would know about that better than I would ’cause you were on those equality rides back in the day. Yeah, that’s how we started. That’s how a lot of people know us as kind of a fearless organization, willing to have the hard conversations about things that most people are taught or taboo or not allowed or wrong or evil. And then over the course of the decades we’ve transformed into more of an ideological change work and culture change work kind of organization. And basically what that means is that we found that at the core of what was oppressing LGBTQI plus people in terms of religious violence is actually at the intersection of almost every social justice issue.

                            3 (4m 33s):

                            And we call that thing white Christian Supremacy. And that basic concept is just this idea that power and systems of power, whether it’s imperialism, white supremacy, pick a thing, takes on the false robes of Christianity in terms of text tradition lingo, how we talk to get people to be complicit with systems of power and domination. And we claim that as not Christianity. That is not about a faith practice that’s actually about keeping and hoarding power and greed. And so doing some of that work of helping de mythologize all of this Christian ease and all of these traditions that we come from that we find ourselves nodding along to things that are actually really horrific that we wouldn’t normally say yes to except for that they come cloaked with a fancy preacher in the good book and therefore we, we kind of go along with it.

                            3 (5m 23s):

                            So that’s what we do now. We do it a million ways from Sunday. We really love it. We work in the US South and in the global south to do some bridging work across the academy, the streets and activism as well as the church and communities in general.

                            1 (5m 39s):

                            Yeah, it’s really incredible. We’re talking about doing like a, an episode or a, a series about like diving into like direct action activism days with so forth. So if people are

                            3 (5m 48s):

                            I love that.

                            1 (5m 49s):

                            Yeah. But so that’s the last conversation for another day, I think. But to, but to get at the heart of it, I know that, so folks who are listening almost certainly came from some version of conservative Christianity or, or in some version of like maybe progressive faith. But so I know for a lot of folks either they used to wrestle with, is it okay to be queer or like Gay and Christian, L-G-B-T-Q, maybe they are okay with that, but they have like friends or family who are not fully accepting or like maybe they’re surrounded by love and affirmation, but they just sort of are aware that like Christian based homophobia is an issue. And so they’re like, have a heart for trying to to change that. And so you yes, you really specialize on like this sort of like change work, I think you called it.

                            1 (6m 33s):

                            So like what, what did, And I know that you’ve taken different tactics over the years, like what have you found, like is the thing that changes hearts and minds but also changes like policy and culture and are those the same things or, or, because I know, I know Scott, we were talking about this beforehand, like so many people just like wanna be like, let’s talk about so ga more. And I like, what does this word in like Romans Yeah, in Romans are in First Corinthians mean, and like blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And all the books that have been written about that, but like, is that it or is there something else? And like what is that?

                            3 (6m 60s):

                            Well, I am a believer in a multitude of strategies and tactics. So I will say yes to all of the above. Soulforce really specializes in how we work on healing our own spiritual violence. And that’s what we call that either spiritual violence or spiritual terrorism. When it gets to kind of the systemic from all sides level that hurt that comes inside us, really inhibits us from being able to try to participate in democracy from trying to demand our rights or even just respect in our own families, communities, et cetera. Because a lot of us carry these tiny little voices in the back of our head of someone we loved probably or respected who told us something about being queer, being trans, that we put away as illogical and not true when we deconstructed the Bible.

                            3 (7m 50s):

                            But maybe there’s a little question, especially when something bad happens or something goes wrong, which is like, oh, are were they right? Or does God hate me or am I going to hell? It’s like those little, those little voices that can really just leave really deep wounds or at the very least little splinters that are just irritating all the time. So that we call spiritual violence. And what our strategy is, is we start with working on ourselves because that’s the sphere over which we have the most control. We have the most agency, we have the most excitement, I hope about how we heal our own spirits and our minds. So some of that is education work.

                            3 (8m 30s):

                            Like until somebody broke down Sodom and Gaura for me, I was like, maybe it does say that. I mean I have been in places like South Africa for example, where I was doing work with a group of LGBT clergy and it was still almost panic inducing for folks to look at the actual text. Even though I was saying, this isn’t about us. It was so embedded in cultural speak, in family speak that so many of us don’t wanna even confront the text to look at it. And so that’s part of it is education. So we have a whole theological library that’s free for download online that talks about gender diversity in the Bible, Sodom and Gamora, Mary’s choice if you’re interested in reproductive justice, a zillion things in seven different languages.

                            3 (9m 17s):

                            So hopefully you’ll find what you need there. So that’s one piece is the education. Another piece is community and finding other folks who are doing similar work and peeling away so that we don’t have shame around. I can’t believe I believe that. Which is like, of course we believe that that’s what we were taught. Yeah. That’s what our heart was trained to respond to. So we actually have to peel back and unlearn those things. It wasn’t because we were somehow stupid or naive even, it was just what we were surrounded with, like the fish in the water. So we do work around creating community. Most recently that’s looked like our queer feminist podcast focused on Latinx folks in Latin America and the US who are theologically trained, who are working through issues of our time.

                            3 (10m 5s):

                            And it’s not always just about gender and sexuality, the intersection of that kind of harm, where weaponized religion comes for social justice is true for environmentalism, it’s true for democracy. It goes down the line for so many different kinds of struggles. So we really work at that intersection. And then of course there’s always a celebration. We have this really fun, wonderful experimental spirit space called, or Church of the Queerly beloved, that actually centers drag performance and trans burlesque and spoken word to different things like that from a local community in partnership with us where we do a reverse altar call where we offer a, a symbolic apology or where we do a trans Baptism, where we affirm folks with their new names or a revised communion based on the promise of milk and honey, a land flow with milk and honey.

                            3 (11m 2s):

                            So we have a lot of ideas and then we execute some of those ideas into practice and try it out and see how it goes. And then try something else and then try something else and then try something else.

                            1 (11m 12s):

                            I love it. I love it. I could imagine for folks it’s like a little bit like greeking from a fire hose, every, all of that. And so like what, like it either you can take it in in two ways. Like what’s like a day in the life of, of Reverend Sex or like what’s like one story of like impact that like really sticks with you or I guess both. Ooh,

                            3 (11m 37s):

                            Well, there’s no two days that are the same. There’s a lot of meetings and coordination, but I, on, on our busy years, I can travel the circumference of the earth multiple times in a year. So there’s a lot of bouncing around to be with our lgbtqia plus community, particularly in the global south. And I think one of the things that stands out over and over and over again is that no matter where I am, so for example, I did a workshop with our team in a brothel in downtown keto Ecuador. And so I’m in this brothel with more than a hundred sex workers.

                            3 (12m 18s):

                            And that same experience can translate into an experience with a group of trans folks in Nairobi and Kenya. There are always these places where I hear really horrific stories actually about weaponized Christianity and about how our people are told that we’re not allowed to have access to God or to tradition or to rituals or practice. I think the thing that sticks with me so strongly is folks will always start with, especially if they’re feminists, which I love this about activists and particularly feminists, they’re like, all right, let’s start with a rib.

                            3 (12m 58s):

                            Like, and it just turns into this maybe hour and a half, two hour long session about the Bible and the Rowans and the Sodom Mangan war, like just going down list. It’s like testing my chops, being like, do you actually know what you’re talking about? Okay. Then we move from that stage to the next phase, which is like, this is, this is what I was taught. This is the horrible things that I experienced from conversion therapy to genital mutilation all the way down the line. And then there’s always this moment that for me is so impactful where the people or a person in front of me will always confess, I never really gave up on God. I just couldn’t go to church anymore.

                            3 (13m 38s):

                            Or I couldn’t believe that thing that was hurting me anymore. And that I think is such a testimony to our right as human beings to have spirituality in whatever form and how even those of us who have by and large been either tossed aside, given up on or demonized by a religious tradition and institutions continue to persist in our own faith practices and beliefs in spite of all of that. And that for me is such a hopeful and powerful moment because then it turns into this very frenetic chatter of like, but how can you be queer and a Christian? And you’re a pastor and you’re a woman, and how can that happen?

                            3 (14m 18s):

                            And are there more like you? And are you the only one? And, and, and and that experience that I could repeat for you on four different continents on any given year is so powerful about what is true about our people and where we are, whether we’re Christian or not Christian is irrelevant to me. We have every right to be Christian and every right to not be Christian, but it is that that reality that our people are hurting and spirit is very much alive and well regardless of what clothing or tradition it takes on.

                            1 (14m 52s):

                            Yeah. Oh gosh. So a lot of our listeners are in English speaking countries. Most of them are in the United States, like, you know, a smattering of, I mean, we’re, where are we? It’s, it’s wild because we realized a few years ago that I think we’ve had visitors and or downloads to our website from like over 200 countries. Like it’s basically like every country in the world about like seven Yes. Or six. And so like, so it, this also spans the globe like, and also a lot of them are in the US or in like Denmark, Germany, United Kingdom, Australia, et cetera. And so I could imagine folks that are like at home, not on four continents every, every year.

                            1 (15m 33s):

                            Like, so there’s like this, all of this like movement happening all over the world. Like what’s the message for the like person at home, whether that’s in like upstate New York or Nebraska or like Johannesburg or like wherever, wherever they might be. Like they’re sort of like in their own home listening. The two of us talk in their ears. Like how does, like what’s, how do you connect the dots between everything out there and your, someone’s like day-to-day life?

                            3 (15m 59s):

                            Hmm. Great question. I love that question. That makes any sense. I think so let me try. I think that some of us who are full-time gay for pay activists, nonprofit workers, or just like out and proud in our workplace, I think we lose sight of how alive and relevant questions are. And I think in the US those are coming back around where we learned that some of the things that we thought were foregone conclusions in terms of our access and our rights is no longer a foregone conclusion. It isn’t yesterday’s news anymore. It continues to be on the horizon as a growing and ongoing concern. So I wanna just remind us all that there are so many of us all over the world in so many languages and cultures, and the vast majority of folks that I talk to have one never heard of being queer and Christian.

                            3 (16m 54s):

                            They, it just doesn’t exist in their world unless they’re one of the few who has snuck on to the internet. Our website, I don’t know about y’all’s podcast, but our website is banned in like many countries, including like the University of Mississippi, right? Depending on what country you’re in. Yeah. But

                            1 (17m 14s):

                            We clear the names

                            3 (17m 15s):

                            Out, Right? Literally it’s just really important to remember that there are so many of us who continue to exist in almost impossible circumstances, both within the US and outside of the us. And that colonizing religion, the part of Christianity that was used to say that some of us were more human than others, some of us deserved wellbeing, while others deserved less than that is still something that we have to actively fight against. And so if you’re not Christian, but you come from that tradition, then I feel like there’s a lot there for you to pull from learn from and help decolonize for other folks in the world who are on that journey.

                            3 (17m 59s):

                            And if you are a Christian, us more than anyone has a responsibility around this God that we claim to serve being stolen and co-opted and used not just in the us. Like just because we don’t hear about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Yeah. For example, you know, I’m thinking about Exodus. Exodus, the ex-gay reparative therapy, miserable strategy of trying to make queer trans people straight and cis when, when that fell out of fashion here and there was apologies and all of that stuff, I feel like a lot of people in the US were like, Ooh, we’re done with that, thank goodness. Whew. But that actually that whole operation, that money making operation, because the point was making money, not just trying to quote unquote heal people, just move south.

                            3 (18m 49s):

                            So there’s a huge operation in Ecuador that’s like flowing all throughout Latin America. That’s also true all across Eastern Africa and Southern Africa. I don’t know a lot about, much more about the rest of the continent, but those things still exist and are alive and around. So us knowing about them and being in solidarity with others who have less access, whether that means you have less access is because you’re in a rural place, or whether you’re in a really insulated bubble inside your community or whether you’re on a different continent. Being vigilant about that and really doing the depths of taking responsibility for our religion or our religious traditions that we were raised in feels like one of the most important things that we can do as people of good conscience, whether we’re Christian or not.

                            3 (19m 37s):

                            Yeah.

                            1 (19m 37s):

                            And so that like brings me to, I, one way that folks can be like paying attention and learning is, is one of your podcasts, which I unfortunately don’t speak Spanish, so I’m not gonna try to say it in Spanish, but like your your shameless theology podcast, shameless, yeah. Which is now had this like a season in English, I believe. And so like can you tell us like about, like more about that project?

                            3 (19m 57s):

                            Totally. So it’s called, which roughly translate as shameless theology, but is a term used in Spanish. It’s a little bit different depending on the place and the culture throughout Latin America, but it almost always has this very gendered most of the time sexualized term. And I think about my granny, I grew up in Appalachia, so I think about my granny would saying something like, have, you know Shane? Like, it feels like that the Za. And so this podcast started during the height of pandemic in Spanish. We did 77 episodes in Spanish, and then we have a whole new season in English that’s focused on the US diaspora, which is brilliant and amazing.

                            3 (20m 40s):

                            And it’s basically folks who engage with queer and Latinx theology, liberation theology in thinking about how that applies to everyday life for folks in really important issues of our time, whether that’s divorce or human sexuality or the environment or the Bible. And so everybody’s theologically trained and we just sit down and have a conversation where we really try to listen to that person’s whole life and experience and how all those things go together to make this kind of juicy theology that helps us break away from all the things that we are taught. Because often in immigrant communities and first gen communities, we’re totally connected to our homelands and our homelands religious traditions and cycles of life.

                            3 (21m 26s):

                            And yet the far right, I mean the extreme right almost has an entire monopoly on all the airwaves, you know, especially in other languages. So we started in Spanish, But we recognize that not all Latinx people have access to Spanish either because they come from a non-Spanish speaking country or just because they were raised in the US where they don’t, we also invite all of our allies and other folks to listen.

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                            3 (22m 21s):

                            But if there’s something, if your only narrative about immigrants or Latina folks is one about fleeing war torn countries or immigration or the border or those poor farm workers, this is a way for those of us who didn’t, I mean, I went to Diviv school And I didn’t get any education around Latin American feminist theology at all. This is a way for those folks, for folks who are interested in that but didn’t have access to it in Spanish, can tap in and hear what we’re talking about in those spheres. What’s alive, what’s the new and current things that we’re thinking about, and how might that help us actually in the US in lots of other issues that we’re facing that countries in Latin America have already faced or been facing in grand part often because of us interventions.

                            3 (23m 9s):

                            So it’s a really juicy podcast to listen to voices that you wouldn’t normally hear here in, in mainstream media or in even in theological education for the most part.

                            1 (23m 22s):

                            Mm. Yeah. I mean there’s like some great theology coming out of like Latin America and, and like in addition to like, you know, James Cohen Black Liberation Theology, but like yeah. An American libert theology and like ourselves, like we’re not like place my heart. Yes. And so like, so I can imagine, because we get this also of like Shannon went to Union Theological Seminary, we do a lot, we like, so we like talk these like big ideas. And so I can imagine someone being like, well, it’s great theology podcast. Like, you’re like about ideas, but like how does, like how does that, like why is that important to, to, to to for, for folks to like listen to?

                            1 (24m 7s):

                            Like what, like what change does that making people?

                            3 (24m 10s):

                            Hmm. Well let me give you a couple examples. Just from this season alone. Yeah. ’cause I could go down the laundry list of all of our brilliant theologians from past years, but just in this season alone, we have a trans pastor who is from the Texas borderland region who’s doing summer camp for trans kids in this kind of incognito moves from here, moves to from there kind of thing because of that hostile atmosphere. There’s another theologian who lived and survived the dictatorship in Argentina. And so her focus on, y’all probably know of her, Dr.

                            3 (24m 50s):

                            Nancy Bedford, she does work that’s beautiful but also really relevant to this moment that we’re living in in the us. So hearing her talk about what church tradition was like for her, how she sees theology, the Holy Spirit when she’s talking about one of the most important resources for this moment, for this political moment as prayer that really perks my ears. And I’m like, what are you talking about? Prayer is like a deeply internal devotional practice, whatever. She’s like, no, this is a political strategy because, And I won’t spoil it, you have to go listen, hers is episode two. There’s another person who is undocumented. So they’re coming out and sharing their story of being theologically trained as a person who is part of the DACA and the Dreamers movement who was currently undocumented in the US and her lived experience around that.

                            3 (25m 39s):

                            There’s another one that part of an episode that is brilliant about someone who is a pastor of a UCC congregation inside a virtual reality called Second Life. So listening to how they provide truly and authentically accessible, meaning anyone in different countries with different needs. And like for example, one of, just a quick example of that is there was someone in Europe, I think in Sweden who was in a facility and wanted to be baptized but was super touch averse and so couldn’t go through the regular process of Baptism, but through their avatar in first life, they literally created the baptismal font.

                            3 (26m 21s):

                            They invited people, they had it live streamed so that their family could be a part of it. And that person got to have their Baptism through this virtual reality with all of their accessibility needs being addressed in the moment. How brilliant is that? Love it. How brilliant are our queer and trans people that they’re figuring this shit out in real time, in real life. So when I think about how does it impact our lives, one, it gives me endless amounts of hope to see the creativity Yeah. And strategy of our people, but also it helps us just rethink things that we were already taught and we just took for granted or we discarded because a lot of people would discard prayer as like, ugh, that thing that Christians do, but her focus on it as a meditative focusing practice to figure out what is our work in this time?

                            3 (27m 9s):

                            That’s a very different orientation to spending some time in prayer than going before God and asking for your like honey do list. Right? So that’s what I would say. That’s my short answer. Yeah.

                            1 (27m 20s):

                            Yeah. It makes me think of Laverne Cox’s idea, like a possibility model, but like, not just like on the, on the scale of a famous person, right? But like here, because like, I don’t know, like I’m not gonna be on a Netflix TV show, but like I, right. But I could perhaps like reimagine prayer for myself or I could like, I’m also probably not gonna start a start a UCC church in in Second Life, but like, they, like it turns something in you right about sort of like, oh, like what, what other possibilities are there? Whether you’re like a pastor or just like a person in the pew or someone who’s like no longer at church. And so I, I love all of that like inspiration. And so

                            3 (27m 56s):

                            It also helps you connect better to what’s going on in the world around you because we often have feedback loops that just tell us the same things we already know over and over and again in this echo chamber. And so getting outside of that to feel and hear what others’ lived experiences are from a very different position and how they engage with that and what things like radical self-love looks like is a brilliant study in how do I be ready to be a member of a global society because I will encounter people who are different than me, or maybe I will encounter someone with chronic pain even if that’s not my experience. So listening to somebody talk from a theological position and a position of faith around chronic pain is a really helpful entree into being like, okay, I know enough about this little thing that I would know how to engage with somebody if I met them at my church, at my kids’ school in the community.

                            3 (28m 53s):

                            And that is also such good practice in this moment where we’re taught to be more and more isolated.

                            1 (28m 59s):

                            Yeah, I know it’s really easy to like the algorithms and the feeds and the like in 24 7 news cycle, like everything is so terrible. The world is on fire And I, And I like not that the world is not on fire, right? Like it absolutely is. But I think, I think that like sometimes like progressive folks are leftist focused, it’s really easy to like only see all the stuff that’s like going wrong and there wasn’t all of the effects that need to need to happen. And so like I, I think it’s like so important for us to all stay plugged into all of like the hope and the possibility and this not just possibility, but the things that are like actually happening. Because I think if I, yes, so I, I think I’ve like curated my algorithm such that like, I, I don’t like, like don’t get depressed by it because I just, the podcast that I listen to the news stories that I’m reading that like the organizers that I’m following, I’m like, there’s like so much amazing stuff going on in the world.

                            1 (29m 46s):

                            Like you don’t have to just rage tweet all day long. Like you can go be a part of something constructive. And I know we were talking about that a little bit before the show of, but like before we started recording was like, you know, lots of folks don’t need to go through the process of deconstruction and, and you know, what are these clever passage us saying, let’s talk about Sodom and Gomorrah all day long and, and that that’s important work. Like, and also we were, we’re talking about there’s, there’s more to it than that. There’s a sort of a like, like a constructive work. And so I think that’s like a little bit of what Reverend Sex is doing. And so can you talk a little bit more about like moving from deconstruction into like reconstruction and like Yeah.

                            1 (30m 27s):

                            Not just that, but also like really going there when it comes to, to sex and sexuality.

                            3 (30m 33s):

                            Yes. I would love to, I think it’s easy to get stuck in the deconstructive part because we really wanna know and understand what happened. And I really applaud folks who are brave enough to look, that’s the most important first step is what is actually true, what’s actually there and being able to face whatever reality is that you encounter after you, after you look at the text, after you look at your tradition, your family, et cetera. But the thing that makes me come alive is what do we do based on all of that that we know to be true? What, what is the way of being in the world that isn’t just constantly being like, God loves us too, God loves everyone there that is, that has its role.

                            3 (31m 16s):

                            And for some of us that’s, that’s where we start. That’s as much as we can get out as just this clinging to this idea that God loves us also, which is not bad at all. And there’s a maturing in the faith that allows us to be more expansive. Because if we weren’t taught all of that terrible shit to start with, there is so much other basis of queer God. And that’s kind of where Reverend sex work comes in. So I go by Reverend Sex because I found that I kept talking with evangelical preachers in particular and we would start with the Bible and then we would start, then we would move, like once we addressed all the ber passage, us one by one in thorough detail, then we would move on to morality and goodness.

                            3 (32m 4s):

                            And then it would just be the progression at the end of the day. And I’m talking about many, many long multi-hour conversations. At the end of the day it was still panic around somebody is gonna treat my body, a man is gonna treat my body, how I as a cis man have treated or have been told I was allowed to treat other people’s bodies, whether that’s women’s bodies, children’s bodies, it’s about agency. And so I was like, if the panic is about Butt Sex, what if we just skipped the other stuff and went straight to the Butt Sex? Because we could talk about the Bible, we could talk about morality or we could just get to the thing that is actually why you are clinging to this so tightly, which is what if a gay man flirts with me?

                            3 (32m 49s):

                            And it’s like, well why don’t we just start there? What if a gay man flirts with you, what kind of theology, what kind of belief do we need to have in practice so that you straight cis man have bodily autonomy and agency to be able to say, thank you so much, I’m not interested, I’m not gay, or whatever the other million things that you could politely say and move it along, what would it, what would we need? Right? And then we’re talking about the good stuff now we’re talking about bodily autonomy. Now we’re talking about the right of bodies to be well to be informed. We’re talking about consent, all these words that I literally never heard growing up. So I just use reverence, sex as this shortcut to say, I’m willing to talk about the things you’re most scared to talk about.

                            3 (33m 34s):

                            You wanna talk about masturbation, you wanna talk about orgasms? The number of women I’ve talked to who are scared to masturbate because they think God will condemn them, send a lightning strike down, aren’t satisfied by their husbands. I mean these are straight women that I’m talking to of many ages, like 50 sixties more by going by Reverend Sex, I’m kind of leading with this. I’m here to talk about those things. So you don’t need to be shy. So when we get in session, lots of people are willing to talk about lots of things because I’ve just laid it out there on the front line. So I use Reverend Sex, I use Audrey Lorde’s uses of the erotic as my primary source text and comparing this idea of the erotic energy that is in all of us as the Imago de and connecting with that source of power that is instilled in the spark of the divine that is within all of us as made in the image of the divine.

                            3 (34m 31s):

                            And using that to be like, okay, if we start here, what’s possible? Because just look outside. Like just think about the types of plants. Even if you’re not a plant person, think about the types of teas, just the types of teas that you can drink or the flowers like I truly believe, I didn’t come up with someone else said it, but I truly believe that God’s orientation is much more drag queen than anything else. Because some of the colors in the same flowers, you have oranges and pinks and reds and purples, like the world is so full of difference and diversity and wildly creative things that I’m like, if you start from that position, God made this world, this earth, this cosmos, and it has everything from black holes to wooly worms, right?

                            3 (35m 18s):

                            And everything in between. We actually as queer and trans people are very normal. I know that’s a bad one for some normal, yeah. But we actually fit in really, really well here. What doesn’t make sense is that God would create these very rigid boxes that people are supposed to stuff themselves in. And anything other than that is bad there. There’s no proof of that anywhere around us in all of creation from plants to animals, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s kind of the orientation of the constructive theology is what happens if we start by knowing God through what God has created, where do we as queer and trans people fit in? Where do we see shame or not shame? And then from there we can see the constructs of white Christian Supremacy for what they are, which is instilled ways of thinking and frameworks to try to control us in different forms.

                            1 (36m 5s):

                            Yeah. Oh man. When you were saying like at the end of an eight hour day, people are like, what are we? But like Butt Sex is like gross, I feel like. Like, oh man, I like, I think the two big things I took away from my time with the equality, right? Having like hundreds and hundreds of these conversations was like, oh, it almost always, if you just keep digging, it comes down to like, but the parts just don’t fit. Or like, I don’t know, that seems kind of weird to me. You’re like, ooh. And so like you gotta like, you gotta address the like the ooh at some point. Yes. And that people think that they want, the other thing that I like figured out was that like people think that they want like academic dissertations, which like they do oftentimes. And also the thing that’s gonna like move people is like stories.

                            1 (36m 48s):

                            Like it’s the, the Bible is not, yes, there’s like some tical laws in there, but the Bible is mostly stories. Like that’s how we humans like transmit values and meaning. And so like, yes, I’m like we gotta skip breaking down Leviticus and like get into like let’s talk about sex like and and relationships and consent and autonomy. And it’s also like why Queer Theology is like it, it’s not just for queer people, right? It benefits like straight people too. Yeah. Because like we can break, it’s an oppo, it’s an invitation to like break up these conversations and be like, for straight CI men, for straight women, for like straight relationships. Like there’s just so, so much, so much bigger. And so I love

                            3 (37m 27s):

                            Invitation. Absolutely. I actually think that that’s part of why God created us is that for those of us who have to deal with our gender and sexuality in order to survive. And let me be clear that not all of us do survive. Yeah. But for those of us who make it to the other side of that very hard soul searching difficult process, we have something to teach everybody else because we have lived through what it means to come to terms with our own beings, our own desire, our own truths, and find God on the other side. So I actually think that that’s a perfect place where there should be leadership amongst our community, not just for our community, but for the wider community.

                            3 (38m 8s):

                            And you know, you said earlier like what changes hearts and minds? And I would, And I started with talking about how we work on ourselves because that’s where we have the biggest fear of influence. But I wanna just wrap that up to circle back around to that by saying, when we are sure about what we know, whether that is me and God are okay, I can’t tell you the number, number of grandmothers who have been pacified and calmed by their queer and trans grandchildren saying, grandma, me and Jesus are okay. Like I promise we’re okay. It’s like at the end of the day, if someone loves you, they want you to be well with yourself, with Jesus, with God, with whoever.

                            3 (38m 48s):

                            And doing that soul searching work does that. And so I would say the thing that changes the most hearts to minds, at least in my experience, is me claiming my own truth about my body, about my desire, about my life, and about God of being like, I have a prayer life. Me and God are good. We talk a lot. We have some very difficult and beautiful and affirming conversations. And that work I think is actually the hearts and minds work. But we have to, we have to have done the soul searching and had the community support to be able to get there, to be able to say, this is what I know to be true about myself, and this is what I know to be true about my relationship with God.

                            1 (39m 24s):

                            Yeah. Amen. And And I, I see sometimes, like in our work, L-G-B-T-Q Christians will be like, well I, I’ve like repaired my relationship with God and Jesus and so like, I just like wanna make sure that everyone else hears the good news about Jesus. Like, I want my partner to become Christian. Or like, maybe they’ve like, it’s okay to be gay, but like you still have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. And so I think that there’s also like some work that I know, like when I talk about my work, like it, it often comes up like at gay clubs, at gay beaches, I mean people who are like not ostensibly religious. That’s fun. It’s delightful. And like, I think that like people, I don’t, I dunno what people imagine, but like, and the ways that people like light up, like they don’t necessarily wanna go to church.

                            1 (40m 5s):

                            They might not even ever like wanna pray or God, but just like a, the idea that someone is like going to places and talking about come chops and communion in the same sentence is like, oh my God, that’s yes, that’s possible. But also like, oh, well maybe if I can see this dance floor as like something sacred like that, that like jives with me. Like yes. And so like I think there’s also an element of like deconstruction, reconstruction of sort of like what works for you, like might not be what works for some other queer person and, and to like finding all so the the different ways that people like might access the divine.

                            3 (40m 41s):

                            Yes. Brian, thank you for bringing that to the fore. It’s so true. And it’s so important because I will also do work with a, with a group called the Sexual Liberation Collective. And we’re working with sex workers, sex healers, sex educators, and the folks, I mean, I would say my primary ministry with that group of people is the kink community within queer and trans world. And that includes sex parties and other forms of expression. And we do writing workshops. It’s all kinds of really fun and interesting things. Many of the things that other people would be like, even queer people will be like, Ooh, this makes me a little uncomfortable.

                            3 (41m 24s):

                            Right? And so doing some of that own work, even those of us who feel like we’re marginalized or on the outskirts to understand well how if the divine is actually in everyone and in everything, where might God show up? And what if that include things like the bedroom or what if that included things like BDSM kind of engagements, like those kinds of things feel so alive and potent and so right for the possibility of connecting with the divine. If we get out of our own way without having to stuff God, this is the thing we tell. We get told that we’re supposed to be stuffed into these tiny little boxes, and then we turn around and do the same thing with God and try to stuff God in these tiny little boxes and be like, why couldn’t God be in a sex party?

                            3 (42m 9s):

                            Why couldn’t God be interested in pain and pleasure? And what that has to do with each other? Like, all these things are possible. Let me tell you, if you never thought about it before, it is possible. And some of our deconstructive work, knowing how religion has been used to hurt us, is understanding how other pieces of that same religion might be being used to hurt others and not perpetuate that same harm against others. Even if it’s a slightly different flavor or texture or with different words or with different marginal identities.

                            1 (42m 38s):

                            Oh my God, you, this is, we can’t do a whole other something on this because I, I touch upon like kink and pain and submission in my book Lovey Monogamy. But like it’s about yes, not monogamy most, more generally. And so like, but I’m like, oh, there’s like, there’s another book in me about like, just about kink and faith and it’s like, it’s rich absolutely richly.

                            3 (42m 58s):

                            I think kink theology has stuff to teach all of us actually because just the work consent, I never once heard that in all of my years of church. And even now in progressive Christianity, I don’t hear it very often. And the, the ideas and the scenes of the construction that, of imagination that happens in kink communities, I think those of us who are working out in the wider world for social justice and change could really take a lesson from that level of creativity, world building, construction, all of that kind of stuff. And I do a, a writing workshop called Jesus is a Power bottom. And

                            1 (43m 37s):

                            I love that

                            3 (43m 39s):

                            It’s, it’s a really fun workshop. But basically what it does for, for folks is it takes the relationship of how you see your relationship to God and then it switches the roles of the scene and says, well what if God played a different role? What if you played a different role? What if that role was sexual? Like how might that engagement feel and look and change what’s in your body in terms of your ability to connect with God? Because as one of the brilliant participants of the first time I did the workshop said is like God is just, this was a pk, so a pastor’s kid, and she was like, it just feels like God’s an evil Sky daddy sometimes. And sometimes that’s fine, but other times that’s not fine.

                            3 (44m 20s):

                            And it really stuck with me of like, what happens when we take God out of that evil Sky Daddy role and actually engage with God as a real entity. So we have a lot of fun, but it’s also about doing some of that deep deconstructive work in an embodied way.

                            1 (44m 38s):

                            Yeah. Okay. So talking about workshops makes me, makes me wonder if, if folks are late listening at home, what are like various ways other than obviously the podcast that folks can either like get plugged into, learn about support, be a part of experience, your work, y’all’s work, either you’re work or soulforce worker? Both.

                            3 (44m 56s):

                            Yeah. Well, on my website, reverend sex.com, you can, it says Find me at church or something like that. And it often has where I will be preaching next or where I’ll be, we do conference circuits, so you’ll find us at places like Creating Change sometimes if you hit those kinds of places. Or Wild Goose Festival in North Carolina where I’m from. And then I would just say, check us out on social media soulforce org or if you speak Spanish at robot for the Spanish language stuff. We do lots of workshops. I think on the horizon we’ll do a community cohort kind of class around the upcoming book, which is on spiritual violence.

                            3 (45m 37s):

                            And its different forums. And so we often will do a community course. When we did it in Spanish, we had a community course that had like a hundred folks from 10 different countries that kind of came together reflecting on their experiences, learning some of this new vocabulary like spiritual terrorism or spiritual trauma and then moving from there. So just stay tuned. There’s so many different places to plug in.

                            1 (45m 59s):

                            I love it. And I always like to ask folks like, what’s, what’s coming down next? And so can you share a little bit more about, about this, this upcoming book?

                            3 (46m 6s):

                            Yeah, I’d love to, well, we’ll have another season of, in English and it will be centered around some of the folks who contributed for this book project, which is called Spiritual Violence and Religious Phenomena that defile the Faith. And it’s a US adaptation of a book that we put out a few years ago in Spanish that we did a whole Latin American tour and it identifies white Christian Supremacy, spiritual violence, spiritual terrorism, religious abuse and spiritual trauma. So for folks who are hearing those words for the first time and they don’t quite sure how they go together and what that means, it’s a book that has somatic practices.

                            3 (46m 49s):

                            If you feel that in your body, it has surveys of, you might have been a target of this kind of violence, if these things have happened to you or you’ve experienced them, it has intellect for those of us who are sapiosexual has the intellectual theory parts that we dive deep on what these concepts mean. And then there’s some space to engage with real people’s case studies of real lived experience, real people’s lived experiences that explain that idea or that that framework a little bit more for each of those five concepts. So that’s coming out in January. We’ll be doing lots of things around that, around those issues, how it connects with Latinx communities, how it connects with gender and sexuality.

                            3 (47m 30s):

                            And folks should look very much look forward to that.

                            1 (47m 33s):

                            I love it so much. And so for folks wanna connect with you on Instagram, you’re Reverend Sex, Reverend Sex over there. Any other, any other places that folks should be connecting with you

                            3 (47m 44s):

                            At Sexual Sex Lib, co Sexual Liberation Collective, sex Lib co or soulforce org all together, those are the places where you’ll find us on social media and we’re out and about a lot actually. So you should get on our Soulforce newsletter. We send one a month. It’s not a overload of emails, but it gives you a look into things, it gives you all the latest connects to the podcast or other things that we’ve done that you have access to from your home.

                            1 (48m 13s):

                            Also if, if you give money every now and then you’ll get something in the mail. I got like some really sweet art not not too long ago from y’all on like a postcard or a magnet or something. Yeah. That I have in my fridge. So that and and, okay, so let’s, now that the, now that the logistics are out of the way, we like to close by asking like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy?

                            3 (48m 31s):

                            Ooh, so much joy. So much joy. I’m doing this series called Love Letters with Reverend Sex, which I was a little bit strong armed into doing. They’re shorts, 15 to 30 minute reflections. And even though it, it was hard to get me to say yes, it’s been bringing me so much joy to revisit some of the things that I was taught as a young person. And looking back decades later, I just completed my 10th anniversary of ordained ministry. So you know, almost 20 years of digging into these kinds of things and going to school for them. And it was, it’s been a real joy to kind of circle back and be like, oh, the Rapture was a big deal growing up.

                            3 (49m 15s):

                            The Left Behind series really impacted me. I don’t know if you were paying attention, Brian, but in many parts of the world that we were supposed to have rapture happen, not twice, but three or four times. Just this past fall.

                            1 (49m 28s):

                            Yeah,

                            3 (49m 29s):

                            Yeah. So, So just circling back and being like it, searching my own heart and spirit and being like, what is true about that for me now? And how do we engage in conversations that can be healing for others? Because that, for example, was a hugely traumatic thing for me when I was a young person. So being able to see, oh, we do heal over time, we do this work and it’s hard and we do land in a different place that’s more loving and more open and more ourselves. And that brings me a lot of hope. ’cause I’m a very stubborn person, so it’s hard change is hard for me.

                            1 (50m 2s):

                            Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for being here, Alba. It’s been a delightful conversation and hopefully the first of many.

                            3 (50m 9s):

                            Yes, what a pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. I’m so happy to be here.

                            5 (50m 13s):

                            The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.

                            2 (50m 22s):

                            To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

                            5 (50m 30s):

                            We’ll see you next week.

                            The post Butt Sex, Baptism, and the Divine with Rev. Alba Onofrio appeared first on Queer Theology.

                            51 min
                          • Lesbian Nuns, Punk Rock, and God with Margot Douaihy

                            Fr. Shannon is joined this week by author Margot Douaihy (@NeonMargot), and this is very exciting for him since he is a huge fan of her Sister Holiday series! Margot is a professor of creative writing at Emerson College as well as the author of the award-winning, nationally bestselling Sister Holiday series, as well as the poetry collections “Bandit/Queen: The Runaway Story of Belle Starr, Scranton Lace, and Girls Like You.” Her debut mystery, “Scorched Grace,” won The Pinckley Prize in Crime Fiction and was named a Best Crime Novel of the Year by the New York Times, Guardian, and others. In this conversation, Margot reflects on her Maronite Catholic upbringing, her queerness, and how those threads come together in her noir mystery series, which features a devout, tattooed, riot-girl lesbian nun navigating crime, desire, justice, and faith in New Orleans. She discusses subverting the crime genre, queering narratives of law and order, desire and celibacy, found family, and the sacred possibilities of storytelling. There is so much holiness in storytelling, and Margot’s work shows why art and community matter more now than ever.

                             

                            Resources:

                            • Learn more about Margot at https://www.margotdouaihy.com/ 
                            • Buy her books: https://www.margotdouaihy.com/scorched-grace 
                            • Learn more and join the Community at https://www.queertheology.com/community/
                            •  

                              This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

                              (10s):

                              Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we have a special guest, Margot Dhe, And I cannot wait for you to hear this interview. Margot is the author of one of my favorite trilogies of books, the sister holiday series. It’s an incredible, incredible series, and we’re gonna talk a lot more about that on the podcast this week.

                              (54s):

                              And in general, I just think you’re gonna love this conversation with Margot. So here is Margot’s official bio, and then we will jump into the interview. Margot dw, he lives in North Hampton, Massachusetts and is a professor of creative writing at Emerson College. She’s the author of the award-winning nationally bestselling Sister Holiday series. In addition to the poetry collections Bandit Queen, The Runaway Story of Belle Starr, Scranton Lace and Girls Like You, Her debut Mystery Scorched Grace, won the Pinkly Prize in crime fiction and was named a Best Crime Novel of the Year by the New York Times Guardian and others. Welcome, Margot. Welcome to the Cariology Podcast. I am so, so thrilled to have you here.

                              (1m 36s):

                              It’s gonna be so fun. Thank You. Thank you so much. I am just a huge admirer and fan of yours and thank you. The community that you nurture and care take with and among and co-create. I just think we need more, more community and kind of affirmation of Queer Theology and just expansive ways of thinking about the structures that give us comfort and grace Yeah. In life. And I’ll say it, especially now. Yeah. So yeah, I’m, I’m just very grateful for the work that you do, Shea. Well, Thank you. Appreciate that. And likewise, likewise.

                              (2m 17s):

                              And we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk about the, what do we do now a little bit later, but I, I would love to maybe start out with, for folks who are not familiar with you and your work, we’re gonna talk about the sister holiday series here in just a minute. But I, I’m wondering if you can maybe just share a little bit about your life and also maybe, maybe a bit about your spiritual journey, however, however that makes sense for you. Absolutely. So I currently live in Northampton, Massachusetts, but I’m from Scranton, Pennsylvania. And it’s really hard to talk about my life as a, as an artist, as an educator, or even my aesthetic without my religious upbringing and my spiritual life.

                              (2m 60s):

                              And that’s connected to my ethnic heritage. I’m third generation Lebanese American, and our church was also our family kind of community heartbeat. So I grew up in the Maronite Catholic Church. So that is the Catholicism of Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and the diaspora. It is campier than a Roman Catholic mass, I would say. Which, just saying something. It’s just saying there’s, it’s longer, there’s more gold, there’s more drama.

                              (3m 40s):

                              And we have these murals in our church, St. Ann’s of, in West Granton, of just, so, it’s just this incredible merger of the semiotics of the Middle East, cedar trees, Lebanon and Jesus Christ, and all of our saints. And it’s like the, you know, really fascinating. It was always really interesting to me. I apologize, my cat is also crying in the background part, part of my spiritual journey. I grew up just utterly fascinated by the, the world of just knowing there’s something greater, bigger that we don’t see, you know, the nice creed, what is all that is seen and unseen, that there’s always this, not even shadow side, But we are not alone.

                              (4m 31s):

                              You know, we have this kind of greater connectivity in the, it’s both exterior and interior in the connective tissue. And so growing up, it was just a huge part of my life. You know, I went to Catholic school and my teachers were nuns. And so there were all these just facets of my epistemology of like learning about what I thought I knew that were shaped by Catholicism, and not just Catholicism, but a really kind of intense discipline, like almost a disciplined, quite dogmatic take on Catholicism. ’cause these, the lines of it trace back to like the crusades.

                              (5m 15s):

                              So people like expanding the word out to, you know, all these areas and protecting kind of a very strict vision of Catholicism. And so also alongside of my fascination and what I thought was incredibly elegant and beautiful, and also carnal and dian and weird, and, you know, in noir in many ways of like sitting in a pew and seeing the, you know, body of Christ and thinking like about murder and murder mysteries and greater mysteries in the ways that they nest. But was also realizing that I was queer. And so that was not acceptable, you know, all of the things that you could just sort of like input into Gen X, you know, growing up in the Rust Belt.

                              (6m 4s):

                              And so I moved away from attending mass every week, you know, in, in sort of my, I guess, late twenties, thirties. But I’ve never considered myself non-religious, even though I don’t have the kind of freedom that I sort of used to have. It’s a little slippery and porous. There’s a lot of kind of porosity around it because I’ve never excised that really personal relationship that I’ve had with faith. And also the fact that I turn to Catholicism in ways that are really so instinctual, they’re almost pre-verbal.

                              (6m 45s):

                              Mm. And that’s always fascinated me too. I try to stay curious about it. And so merging all of that and all of those like influences and my deep, deep, deep love of mystery fiction and mystery narratives and the ways that they kind of invite you to puzzle through a space and time with someone. And so I knew I always wanted to write a mystery series, And I thought, who, how can I recast the typical hard boiled, hard-nosed kind of insider, outsider, obsessive investigator in a radically feminist and re comparatively religious lens?

                              (7m 30s):

                              And so Sister Holiday was born, she, the character is a 33, starts as a 33-year-old nun who makes a countercultural move to go from Brooklyn in sort of like this out and wild fun life. And she’s in a, you know, post punk riot girl band. And she makes a move to here’s my cat bear, to part of our Queer Theology to join a convent, the Sisters of the Sublime Blood in New Orleans. And so she, you know, puts herself in these put of investigation and her spirituality, her reli deep, deep religious faith.

                              (8m 13s):

                              She is pious, she is, you know, liberation theologists. So I wanted to create a transgressive interiority that felt really real to me and textured. So she’ll think of, you know, bikini kill lyrics or lunatics in the same breath as like, you know, Exodus or the Ians or, you know, various gospels Yeah. That they’re braided together and they’re not, so that we don’t have to choose how we kind of move through the world, that it’s just very much merged merger. Yeah. So she doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to a whole lot of people who believe that life functions better with like tidy categories and silos and partitions, and they could be only one thing in the world.

                              (9m 1s):

                              And so she is a mystery to herself. She’s a mystery to, you know, the sisters in her convent. ’cause you know, she’s, she’s tattooed stem to stern. She has to wear gloves and, and a scarf to, to cover her tattoos, to put the focus on the work and on the sacred and on God and not on herself. And so she’s been a really fun character to write. She’s been a really reparative character for me to write. And in many ways gives me just so much more appreciation for the nuns that I grew up with. Who are my teachers, who are my mentors. And always, I don’t want to curse on this podcast, but like, you know, no, you can a bad just badass feminists that prefigured my understanding of second wave feminism and even third wave.

                              (9m 47s):

                              So, And I import a lot of that, a little bit’s exaggerated, but it’s authentically true. So in the convent, the sisters, they don’t drive, they walk everywhere. They grow their own food. They’re anti-capitalist. They are, they minister at the prison, the prison birth project, you know, praying and playing music with people who have either just given birth or about to. And that was inspired by a lot of the social justice work that the Catholic nuns that I knew growing up were not only deeply invested in, but leaders, they were leaders in this work were reparations, community solidarity, mutual aid, like Catholic nuns.

                              (10m 34s):

                              You know what I’m saying? Yeah. You know, yes. It’s not that. But then at the same turn, it’s not monolithic. We have the res schools, you know, native American communities in which nuns are really colluded with the era of identities. And so all of these different facets kind of fed my interest in creating a mystery series. And particularly a very gritty r rated noir inflected mystery series led by a genuinely devout none who was also very, very idiosyncratic. Yeah. So long way of, of introducing you all to me and, and to this character of Sister Holiday.

                              (11m 14s):

                              Yeah, no, that’s so great. So yeah, so the first two books in the series are Out Scorched Grace and Blessed Water. And I gotta say, like this book is all of my niche interests wrapped in one. It felt like if someone was writing a mystery series just for me. So it’s, it’s been such a gift to spend time with Sister Holiday. I wanna pull out two different threads if we can, of course, specifically debut mystery series, start with and like kind of detective novels and not all of that, because like I am a huge fan of that genre and also often feel bad about my love of that genre because it’s so, yes.

                              (11m 56s):

                              You know, law enforcement and propaganda and kind of a often like law enforcement acting outside of the law to bring vengeance and what they would call justice, which is like not always justice. And so I’m wondering if you can just talk a little bit about like, wrestling with that genre and then bringing Right, this queer sensibility. Because, because the other piece of, of many mystery novels is that queer and trans folks are often the victims, right? Like queer or the, or the bad guys or the whatever, where we end up being cast in the kind of negative light.

                              (12m 37s):

                              And so you, you not only have this, this queer person who is the protagonist of the novel, I don’t, I wouldn’t say she’s always the hero, but at least like aiming towards heroics maybe and working within the genre conventions. Like how, how were you thinking about that as you engaged in this work? Well, fellow fan here, fellow genre fan. So I see you And I hear you on that. I’m a fan first. You know, as always

                              (13m 11s):

                              A mochi moment from Sadie who writes, I’m not crying, you’re crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi, because I didn’t have to convince him I needed a GLP one. He understood And I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I’m Myra Ammo, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit join mochi.com. Sadie is a mochi member compensated for her story.

                              (13m 41s):

                              And it’s true, there are so many of the kind of bestselling titles really propagate that a type of old formula that in many ways keeps it very tidy and straightforward, that there’s a good guy, quote unquote good guy and a bad guy. And there’s one recipe for satisfactory resolution. And I completely see the almost inverse of that. I think mysteries to me about asking questions, yes, about getting satisfactory, delicious feelings at the end that feel satisfactory in terms of the narrative, but really pushing and testing the boundaries and even the very questions of that undergird at all, what is justice?

                              (14m 26s):

                              What is criminality? What’s the crime behind the crime when folks make decisions? And then, you know, are, have to face the consequences of those decisions. When did it start? When did all of that start? Where are the structural institutions that in many ways actually create the conditions for combustibility and criminality, and why are they never brought into the question and equation of justice? And when we queer work and when we queer the conversation, we expand it, we test it, we contest it, so it all becomes a contested territory. And the, the mysteries that I love the most kind of are, they offer that familiar deliciousness within the mystery of like, ooh, clues and red herrings, and what’s a vital clue versus what is a misdirection and someone we can deeply invest in.

                              (15m 25s):

                              And you know, certainly in this case we have the anti-hero, flawed individual, but hopefully someone that, you know, you wanna follow into these bizarre situations. And so I love mysteries for the fact that we, when queer and trans authors, and I’m part of a really wonderful community, we’d love to share with your, your, the folks watching called Queer Crime Writers. And so, you know, Robin Geiger’s, brilliant series of legal thrillers based on her 30 plus years as an attorney. And the protagonist of her books is a trans woman whose name is Aaron McCabe.

                              (16m 6s):

                              And so, you know, bringing in all of these life experiences into like, so folks that read John Grham and Scott Ot, like will love her books, and we have this incredible, beautiful, rigorous trans lens that’s like shaping it. It’s, it’s just so perfect. So I see mysteries as an ideal place in many ways to, you know, ask really big questions, but keep it entertaining, keep it gripping. And, And I think it, the markets shows us, like readers want the new, within the familiar, they wanna know like, okay, if I’m going to the genre section or I’m watching a mystery on like, there’s certain little hallmarks I wanna hit.

                              (16m 46s):

                              But I think the more we can bring bigger and kind of more on, I guess, unique questions and nuanced questions about justice and injustice, authority, agency, authenticity, gaslighting, who gets to create the story that we live in, who’s taking up real estate in our head and why, you know, who leverages deception and affect to gaslight millions of people to vote for them. You know, these are questions that queer and trans writer writers are asking all the time. And then in a mystery space, we get all of that with like, as sumptuous clue engagement.

                              (17m 31s):

                              And so I love it for that. And I, you know, I still see, still see, like if I sit on a panel at Thriller Fest, you know, with former cops and detectives, it’s sometimes interesting to see the power dynamics. You know, and having said that, a good friend of mine is a former prison warden. I just blurbed his book, James LAIs. And his work is what you would consider like classically propulsive and really reparative in asking also these big questions. So I think we’re seeing changes for sure in the mystery and crime fiction space, still have a ton of work to do, but I think it’s more important now than ever for, for queer and trans people and the crime writers of color, for example, which was yeah.

                              (18m 19s):

                              Like, you know, a big force in the scene. But more than ever we need, you know, new and fresh Voices. Yeah, yeah. Kind of piggybacking off of that, I, I’m curious as to your take on how, how subversion of gen genre can help to like, shift our minds and how we’re thinking about things. So, so again, like thinking in, in the prison and law and justice space, where many of us, I think I’ll speak like many white folks, have ideas right? About how the system works, how it should work, that may or may not be reality for people of color for Yeah.

                              (19m 2s):

                              Women and poor communities for indigenous folks, right? So I, I’m curious if you can just talk a little bit about how you maybe think genre and subverting genre and playing in genre can help us to, to reframe how we think about systems and, and maybe live into new ways of being. Does that question make sense? Oh, Of course. And it’s actually something I think about and invest in all the time. I believe that the art that we read and write not only reflects or should reflect the lives that we lead in our multicultural reality, but also I think influences new ways of thinking, new discussions.

                              (19m 44s):

                              So I think it’s this actually this kind of loop that’s quite self-contained, where the more we wanna seek expression and the more we express, the more new pathways open up for paradigms for thinking. And so, and there’s a lot of, you know, interesting theory if folks wanna read it, you know, there’s an interesting essay by literary theorist toter of called the origins of genre. And it’s, its main kind of argument is that genres or sub genres are new way, you know, forms of art are basically concretized by societal needs.

                              (20m 30s):

                              So for example, thinking like one example, Gillian Flynn’s Gone Girl came out in 2012 and is sort of spawned this new movement and crime narratives where their, you know, marriages get blown up and w you know, wives disappear themselves for various reasons to expand on their agency. And the, the sort of current is we want this, we wanna talk about this. Mm. We are living these lives. It is not so easy or sile to say that there’s one way to be in this world. That there’s one way to do gender, that there’s one way to do marriage, that there’s one way to learn.

                              (21m 14s):

                              We are, you know, we say multitudes. And so I think your question is spot on where subverting and reimagining tropes is giving new life, giving, helping people feel seen, which in turn lends to the next generation new voltage, new spaces to be, to be seen. And empathy where we can say, oh, you know what? I don’t know about that. Like, I’ve never, you know, you know, met a lesbian or something, but like, maybe I’ll through reading, I’m like, oh, I can hold space in this moment. Take that and apply it.

                              (21m 55s):

                              You know? So I believe it’s, I think that art is actually crucial. It’s not a privilege that, you know, it is a privilege of course, but I actually think it’s the stuff of life to keep kind of a way of, yeah. A way of thinking, a way of, of being in the world that is forward thinking and, you know, really kind of sacred actually. Yeah. Yeah. I, I wanna ask about desire and sublimation of desire and desire in religious spaces and in queer spaces. ’cause you have this right, really fascinating character in Sister Holiday, who is a young woman who chooses to take a vow of celibacy and join and join this, this convent.

                              (22m 43s):

                              And I imagine that some queer folks listening might be like, upset by that, nervous about that. Like what are, like, what, what is this saying about queer desire and, and yeah, and, and the rightness of queerness, like within religious structures. And so I’m just wondering if you can talk about that a little bit. Oh, absolutely. I’ve had many conversations on this topic, And I think it’s great. I think it’s, you know, contested territory and there’s, you know, I think it’s wonderful. I love it if hey, love it or hate it. Just for me, the worst is if there’s no opinion, you know, or like, oh, what I, maybe I read it, I don’t remember.

                              (23m 27s):

                              So I think for me, you know, desire and, and again, you know, thinking about the passion of Christ and even the etymology of the ways that we understand that word, passion and suffering and desire, they, they bleed out. And they, And I wanted to, in many ways also noir asks us to think about things that, that lift off the page and they, they’ve moved beyond their contained spaces and they almost can deform and reform and all that stuff. So for me, I wanted desire to be for Sister Holiday, something that propels her forward and sets her back.

                              (24m 9s):

                              I want that kind of carnal lust that she has, you know, for her, the sort of ex love of her life, Nina as well as her contemporary Rosemary Flynn, to be a way of seeing herself and of feeling all of herself, and also something she has to continually question and, you know, keep alive. And I think that for some people it might seem like completely paradoxical to have this woman say, yes, I am like proudly lesbian And I am celibate. But I think there’s just something that there’s, when there’s something that doesn’t make logical sense and it can make authentic sense, I am in, I’m interested in investigating that.

                              (24m 57s):

                              And I think that plays out in a variety of different ways. It’s like, I’m also trying to explore what it means to take a vow. So she’s on this path to take permanent vows for a lifetime, you know, of devotion in a way that gives her complete access. So I think for the character, desire is part of that, part of the path for her. And so, so it’s sublimated in some ways, it’s deeply, you know, rolled around in another ways. And more than anything, I’m just, I think I’m trying to create a, a character who has misbeliefs about herself, and she has, like, that I think is part of her unraveling of the mysteries and solving of the mysteries.

                              (25m 45s):

                              So it’s like continually, like there’s the who done it or the why done it, you know, and divine ruin is, it’s a, a drug ring. You know, there’s like, each book has its own kind of ecosystem of crime and mystery. And for her it’s, you know, where, where also does need versus want kind of splinter. And that is, you know, not to make my answer cr too crazily long, but it’s also about addiction and asking about, I don’t know how we understand ourselves in moments of kind of when we’re in love and also feeling like, you know, within ourselves and then also outside of ourselves.

                              (26m 27s):

                              So it’s a multifaceted kind of multivalent quality that I want her to just richly, richly, richly explore in every kind of possible way. Yeah. And also like the things that give us pleasure in life, food, her friendships, like with Revo or Bernard or her brother and the world of New Orleans, like plucking a plumb off of the tree. And the ways that in, in some of the nuns that I’ve read a lot about, like Sister Simone Campbell and Sister Helen PreOn talk a lot about fire and lust and desire, and they talk about St.

                              (27m 11s):

                              Augustine’s, you know, relationship to that as well. I just, again, I just kind of go back to it. It’s not just one thing. Right. And I think people, different people have different ways of kind of living out that truth. Yeah. And so I wanted the character to play with that too. Yeah. And I will say as a reader, one of the things that I loved about Sister Holiday is that I never had a sense that she was wrestling with the rightness of her queerness, right? Like, it, that wasn’t a part of it. It was a, how, how am I gonna embody this in the world? And like, what does that look like for me to do in a healthy way? And, and asking them all of these questions around that. But it wasn’t a, I’m gonna, I’m gonna like, like that, that she still had doubts about whether her queerness was okay.

                              (27m 59s):

                              And so I really appreciated that because I think that sometimes, And I I’m saying that because I think that sometimes people will pick up a book like this and be like, oh yeah, there’s gonna be a we that weird conversion therapy narrative. And that is not what’s happening here. Which I really appreciated. I really appreciated that there was like, she’s such a nuanced and interesting character in both her queerness and her religiosity, which I really, really Appreciate. Thank You. Yeah. Thank you for, for pointing that out. I, and for feeling that. And in many ways it’s like, and she jokes about it. She’s like, I’m a lesbian separatist, you know, if anything, and she plays with that, like the sort of lesbian lethario kind of character and as well as sort of like, again, the hard boiled jerk who’s like into the, the hot dames and like whiskey and that’s, that’s like her, yeah.

                              (28m 50s):

                              And so the cigarette and just the attitude and the brio is like, this is like the most lesbian character you would ever meet. And she’s hell of it. Wow. So I’m, you know, that, that really interests me too. And I also wanted to sort of take a pile driver to those notions of, again, like the ruling religious authorities that say what you can be and who you can be and who you cannot be depending on what your belief set is. Yeah. Sort of like an exact counter argument to that dogma.

                              (29m 31s):

                              And I get some, you know, I get a lot of folks that are like, oh, I’m a lapse cat Catholic and I’m queer, And I love this, this heals me. Thank you. And also folks saying like, no, she would, you know, it’s like a lot of debate about if you were truly to take a permanent vow, like all this stuff. But for, for me and for this character, her queerness is holiness, queerness is a, and to be queer and trans to be in the community is actually a promise of something better. To me, it’s the kind of a sense of like worship of possibility and hope. And I, you know, she has to defend that a lot in the books.

                              (30m 14s):

                              Yeah. Yeah. The same way we have to defend that. Yeah. I have, I have two questions more about this series. One is, I, I’m curious, you know, you’re talking about the cigarette and earlier, you know, bikini Keel and kind of the, the riot girl scene. I, I’m wondering if you can talk about the aesthetics of, of punk and Riot Girl and the aesthetics of Catholicism and, and honestly like of New Orleans and like how you thought about bringing all of that together. I think they were in an incredible conversation. Yes, Yes. The aesthetics of, you know, I’ve always, as I mentioned before, always had this vibe that Catholicism was kind of inherently noir because we wrestle with this question of, of kind of original sin.

                              (31m 7s):

                              And in noir all characters are fallen. And there’s a, you know, while I don’t, that’s not the guiding principle of the book, it’s like there are these questions of, if we’re all, we’re all together in this moment of trying to understand who we are, that there’s actually just something really special and pressurized and sacred about that. But the beauty and the theatricality and the maximalism of being in a Catholic church on Christmas at midnight, mass, I don’t know, it could get more kind of queer and theatrical and camp than that I’ve always felt seen in those spaces with like the, the dripping flowers and, and incense kind of knocking me out.

                              (31m 60s):

                              And in punk where you’re just kind of a sweaty col one of many, like a, a a thumb, you know, a collection of like bodies kind of worshiping the, the experience of art. You know? So whether it’s just like, and in for folks who don’t like, know punk or even post-punk and Riot Girl, it’s like, check out some videos of X-ray specs or bikini kill and like, just lat gray, whatever. But like, just some of those early groups where like people are just gathering in like basements and like gross venues and even like bedrooms and stripped down or just like, sorry, it’s like a pilgrimage.

                              (32m 48s):

                              A sense of power. A sense of power and community. And I feel that it’s like, whether it’s church upon a post punk feminist, like mosh pit, I don’t know. There’s just, there’s a lot of overlap for me authentically that I feel is like, so it just gives me so much power. Mm. Yeah. And, you know, comfort in a way of understanding a very, very hard world. Yeah. And, And I was, I was also really thinking about this community, right? This community of nuns and Sisters in the Sister holiday series, which is a, a very small community, right?

                              (33m 30s):

                              Which many we’re seeing, I think that across Catholicism, right, many of the, many of the communities of sisters are aging and shrinking. And to have this very small community that an outsider comes into, but also wants to join it, it just made me think a lot about community and how we’re forming community and how, how community works when we don’t all agree. And I wonder if, if you can say, just say a little bit about what, you know, why you chose to, to invent this tiny community of sisters in New Orleans and, and what the smallness of the group says and does.

                              (34m 17s):

                              Definitely. That’s another great question and one that is ever so pertinent right now, but it’s just like little, this little order there are at the start, there are four. And, you know, they talk about how at the height there were, you know, dozens. And that mirrors my own experience kind of growing up and seeing churches either combine or just shed congregants or clothes altogether. And then similarly, when certain sisters, you know, die that the, the ants kind of close. And so there’s just tho those trends that I think are on the macro context, but for me it was like, there’s so much truth in the LGBT community about found family.

                              (35m 2s):

                              And so many ways I thought the sisterhood of the Sisters of this blend blood could be a model for a different kind of a found family that also echoes the sisterhood of holidays band, you know, back in Brooklyn where there’s a lot of infighting and, you know, almost not like the opposite of group think and different personalities, distinct personalities, but can agree on a shared value, a shared greater purpose, something bigger to invest in, and, but also in a way that can hopefully use the beauty and glory of diversity to strengthen, not diminish.

                              (35m 50s):

                              And so in some ways it’s like allegorical, but it was also really fun to write all of these sisters to get, you know, and it’s just really fun to write. It’s really fun to hang out with these women and, and also explore their own paths. And in some ways I wanted to counter the erasure of nuns. They don’t often get the spotlight, you know, it’s like the pope and the bishops and archbishops. And I wanted to, in some ways, offer a counter narrative to that erasure too. Yeah, yeah. No problem. I’d love to zoom out a little bit and, and ask, you know, we are in, we are living in interesting times to put, to put not to find a point on it.

                              (36m 35s):

                              And I, I’ve been seeing a lot of narratives lately, even from artists saying, you know, art doesn’t change anything. And, and it wasn’t a why bother or we should stop creating, but there, there was this kind of sense of like, we should know that maybe a, a right sizing of the impact of artists, which I have some strong opinions about. But I’m, I’m curious for you, you know, like in this time, for you, what is the role of the artist and, and how are you thinking about art making in these times? At the risk of, again, sounding redundant, I just don’t think it’s ever been more important to stay close to the forces and the moments that give us a sense of who we are.

                              (37m 29s):

                              So comfort in a book that sweeps us away or entertains us, characters that shake us up, that stay with us. Beauty of slow moments. Like I just, last night my wife And I saw the new Kelly Reihart film called the Mastermind. It’s a, her aesthetic is like slow cinema. It was so slow and just, oh, it was almost just fetishizing moment to moment interactions. Art to me is about asking who are we? Who are we? What is why? You know?

                              (38m 9s):

                              And in many ways it’s these religious questions as well, like the divine mysteries and art is that direct portal in, it’s like, it’s direct injection of a way to explore the world, be with the world, be curious about the world, get weird about it, and in ourselves. And it’s, it can stay with us. I mean, I’m sure you, you know, you’re an artist yourself, like writing scripts and like the films that stay with us, the, the characters and the moments, and we might not understand why. And then like 20 years later we’re like, oh my gosh. Like, I think we once chatted about Terminator two. You know, I’m like, like the glory of, that’s why pop culture matters.

                              (38m 55s):

                              Art matters, subverting tropes matters, queer and trans art making matters. You know, the like more inclusive, like, we get, I think the, again, more kind of ju jumper cables to the soul. I think we get strength from art and art making. It gives us like a sense of purpose in a very, very chaotic, tyrannical, terrifying time. So I always think when I feel overwhelmed and which is daily, we could sit down and write something, even a line. It calms my nervous system.

                              (39m 36s):

                              It helps me like remember what matters in a way that is very real and embodied. And then when I read, you know, read something, it’s from your soul, into my soul, yes, from like one mind into my mind, but it’s actually very sacred. I think art is, is a sacred, sacred endeavor. And so I just think it’s more important, and maybe right sizing is in, it’s interesting to think about for sure. But I think in terms of gaslighting, tyrannical, author, author authoritarian narratives and affect, I think we can counter that with storytelling.

                              (40m 22s):

                              I think that’s really it. We’re in a quote unquote post fact moment, which is horrifying. So what do we do with that? Yeah, more art, more storytelling, storytelling that can break through. What does that mean? I don’t know. Keep it weird. Keep it authentic. I, I, I think my belief in it is more, more powerful than ever. And yet, you know, I, I’m not saying that I think like books are gonna get out of, get us out of an apocalypse, but like anything else, I just, it’s each individual person and how do we reach, you know, the individual soul through that soul work, you know?

                              (41m 10s):

                              Yeah. I, I’m curious, you know, as you’re, as you’re working with students right now and, and they’re experiencing overwhelm or like, how do I write at a time like this? What are, what are the things that you’re telling them? And many of them are so distraught in the same way that I am. The first I I say is I am with you. And we’ve always had our challenges and problems. We live in an extremely imperfect society with power structures and systems that incentivize greed and vice. You know? And now we’re in a moment of, instead of virtue signaling, virtue signaling, it’s vice signaling.

                              (41m 53s):

                              So who can be, you know, kind of more aggressive and incendiary, et cetera. So the first is like, I, I’m with you a hundred percent and that I understand this moment. And so I think my, my response is to say, how can the anxieties or the fear that you’re, you’re living through right now be channeled into the work that you’re creating? How can you, you know, be with it and not abandon yourself and allow this space to be one of empowerment, curiosity, fuel companion.

                              (42m 36s):

                              You know, we’re never alone. If there’s a book around, we’re never alone. We have, we’re with somebody, we’re in somebody’s head. You know, we, it’s somebody reading, being in sister holidays head, me being in someone else’s, you know? So I, I offer that to the students as well. And I, it’s the easiest question in the world to say, you know, what’s a book that’s changed the course of your life? And they’re like, rattling off, you know, a billion books. It’s like, okay, well now you are, you are part of this living ecosystem. You will be one of the books that then somebody else in a few years says, that book brought me back into myself.

                              (43m 23s):

                              That, that, that character is living in my head forever. And so it’s, it’s again, that I kind of a belief, belief in the fact that we’re all kind of creating something that will live, outlive us as well. Like our books and our art. They outlive us. Yes. I wanna close by, you know, traditionally when we do interviews, we ask, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy lately? And so if you wanna answer that, great. But also I wanna ask, what’s one thing that is bringing you hope lately? Moments like this, moments like this and the fact that when you step outside of the social media corners, quote unquote, and the, you know, the glowing rectangle that is like forever bringing attention downward that just, we’re, we’re human animals.

                              (44m 21s):

                              And we are, I think, beautifully kind of raw and vulnerable in the ways that humans have always been. And that’s also the, that’s also hope because the joy is real. You know, the like at five minutes of a spontaneous dance party with, with friends is like the most electrifying thing in the world. And so that the ability to just take a walk with somebody and be reminded of the kind of sacred beauty that is just moment to moment awareness and also, you know, wonderfully subversive books.

                              (45m 4s):

                              And, and again, I’m gonna point to Robin ge legal thrillers with just the, that the success of the series, you know, named New York Times Best Crime Novel of the Year, the her last book. That gives me so much hope that, you know, when it comes down to it, that people want, you know, we wanna, we wanna move towards, towards healing and the light, and that we can still hold space for that in all of our, our messy contradictions. Well, thank you so much for being here. I I wanna tell folks to again, go out and get the Sister holiday series, the third book in the series, divine Ruin comes out in January, January 13th, 2026.

                              (45m 51s):

                              The first two books are out now. And so, like, this is a great time. If you haven’t read the series to go pick up the first two and then you won’t have the wait, so the third one, because it’ll be ready for you. And so yes, get these, get these series. And thank you so much for taking the time to, to talk today and to, to share your heart and, and where your head is at. This has been a really lovely conversation. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com.

                              (46m 33s):

                              You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

                              The post Lesbian Nuns, Punk Rock, and God with Margot Douaihy appeared first on Queer Theology.

                              47 min

                            About Queer Theology

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                            The longest running podcast for and by LGBTQ Christians and other queer people of faith and spiritual seeker. Hosted by Fr. Shannon TL Kearns, a transgender Christian priest and Brian G. Murphy, a…

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