Queer Theology

By Queer Theology / Brian G. Murphy & Shannon T.L. KearnsReligion & Spirituality Christianity

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Queer Theology episodes

November 09, 2025Gender is a Calling with Justin Sabia Tanis
In this episode, Fr. Shannon talks with the Rev. Dr. Justin Sabia-Tanis. He is an assistant professor and director of the Social Transformation program at United Theological Seminary. He earned his Ph.D. from the Graduate Theological Union in Interdisciplinary Studies in addition to a Master of Divinity degree at Harvard Divinity School and a Doctor of Ministry from San Francisco Theological Seminary. We explore Justin’s journey as a transgender man of faith, his groundbreaking contributions to trans theology, and the evolution of queer and trans thought within the church and academia. Justin shares the inspiration behind his influential book on trans theology, and reflects on the growing richness and diversity of trans religious scholarship. The conversation also delves into the intersections of art, spirituality, justice, and education, highlighting how creative expression and community-centered leadership can transform theology and the world.
Find more of Rev. Dr. Justin at: https://www.unitedseminary.edu/academics/faculty/justin-sabia-tanis/
Grab a copy
Trans-Gender: Theology, Ministry, and Communities of Faith
Injustice at Every Turn A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey
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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.
2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from
1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how
2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.
3 (33s):
Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast Guest series. Today we are so excited to have the reverend Dr. Justin Ana, who is an assistant professor and director of the Social Transformation Program at United Theological Seminary. He earned his PhD from the Graduate Theological Union in interdisciplinary studies, in addition to a master of divinity degree at Harvard Divinity School and a doctor of ministry from San Francisco Theological Seminary. As a pastor, he served congregations in Boston, Honolulu, and San Francisco, and was a director of Leadership Development for Metropolitan Community Churches. He is now with the United Church of Christ.
3 (1m 13s):
In his prior work, he served as managing director at the center for L-G-B-T-Q and gender studies and religion, CLGS, and directed communications for the Hawaii Equal Rights Marriage Project, the National Center for Transgender Equality and out in equal workplace advocates. He has taught at the University of Arizona, Pima Community College, IFF School of Theology, and Pacific School of Religion. He now lives in Minnesota with his husband Henry and their two dogs. Well, Justin, thank you so much for, for being willing to have this conversation and, and do this podcast today. You are one of the, I think, very first like trans theology books I ever read.
3 (1m 55s):
So it’s super fun to to be in conversation and to introduce more people to you and your work. So thanks for being here.
4 (2m 2s):
It’s wonderful to be here. Great to have continue our conversation.
3 (2m 6s):
Yeah. I would love to just start by asking you a, to tell us a little bit of your story, a little bit of who you are and how you got to where you are now.
4 (2m 18s):
Sure. So I’m a, a transgender man, identify queer. I’m currently the director of the social transformation program and an assistant professor at United Theological Seminary of Between Cities, cities, which is exciting for me. So how I got here, or blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, this part. Alright, so how did I get here? I was raised, I was always raised in progressive faith, so I feel lucky that I’ve always brought to my religious practice the sense that justice is a part of being, being a Christian, I’ve never been afraid of hell or any of those things.
4 (3m 3s):
I’ve only known a faith that’s been affirming. So when I came out as queer in 1985, when I came out as trans in the mid to late nineties, I was never concerned about whether I was acceptable in God’s eyes, but rather I also recognized that there were so many people around me who were struggling with that question and also that there was a lack of, there was a lack of information about, about these questions that there was not theology that was written. So I will say that I, I have always been drawn to a radical vision of Jesus as someone who pushed the envelope and challenged us to live in ways that are more compassionate and more compelling, more inclusive to live God’s dominion among us.
4 (3m 59s):
And I would say that this was honed by discovering feminist theology when I was in college, and just the ways it challenged the, even though it had a progressive upbringing, the way it challenged the conventional religion religions to say there’s more to the story, there’s more inclusive, there’s always more love, there’s always more liberative possibilities that we’ve been exposed to before. So I, you know, I practically devoured, you know, writings my Carter Hayward and Katie Canon and, and other theologians from that roseberg and other theologians from that, that era, they, that really shaped my understanding, it’s not only can you come from a faith practice that’s affirming, but you can expand it.
4 (4m 49s):
So I became a, I became a pastor in 1990 in Metropolitan community churches and MC also very much honed by let’s have a liberative faith. Let’s, we don’t have to, we don’t have to agree with what people always told us things about. We could go back to the Bible, we could go back to our traditions and say, where, where’s God’s love in the middle of this? Or where is, where are the liberating possibilities? You know, I was involved in, in both AIDS ministry and yeah, involved in Act Up and some and other movements for queer liberation. I also, I like a lot of politics with my religion, a lot of religion with my politics as a pastor, and then later as an, as an advocate in Washington DC with the National Center for Trans Equality.
4 (5m 39s):
And they’re doing a lot of legislative work, policy work communications about why L-G-B-T-Q people in general and trans people specifically should have the same rights as everyone else, that we should have a society that addresses the gross inequities that brought about by oppressive systems, and particularly the ways in which those are com compounded by racism in our society. Yeah. And then as a result of actually working in the National Trans Discrimination Survey, doing the research there, I found, huh, that being able to be a researcher and have a, have a doctorate was actually really helpful in doing that work. So I went back to school to get a PhD and that’s how I found my way back into academia and working in a seminary now.
4 (6m 26s):
And I don’t know of any other trans people who are on the regular tenure track faculty at a Christian seminary in this country. So I feel really lucky to have to be, to be where I am in working with the incredible faculty and students that I’m working with.
3 (6m 44s):
That’s awesome. Yeah. You know, I, I think, I think so much of the work that we see happening now in trans theology, you know, stuff and, and stuff that I’m seeing kind of in the, in the popular imagination, like God creating outside of the binaries and genesis with marshes and dusk and all of that stuff, all of that really started with your work and your book. And I, I would love for you to talk a little bit about the book that you wrote and, and what inspired that book that it, it’s to my mind still like the best kind of intro to trans theology and, and, and understanding trans issues in the church.
3 (7m 24s):
So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about your book.
4 (7m 27s):
Sure. So I, this is my confession that I’m a super duper nerd, right? So I have a doctorate ministry degree in addition to a PhD because why not have the match set? So I wrote that book as part of my doctorate ministry dissertation at San Francisco Theological Seminary where they had, you know, and that now there are trans students who certainly have gone there years since, by the time I think they didn’t know quite what to do with me in this topic. And I do wanna do, wanna mention that I, that I feel like I built or that work owes its pre has predecessors in the, as I said, in the work of feminist theology, really helping me think about gender as a sec, as a category, but also to the writings of Victoria k Kowski, Vicki Kowski, and of Virginia Malco in gender.
4 (8m 19s):
So Vicki writing several chapters that really looked at e or looked through a trans lens. She was a, she was a theologian and a pastor before she became the first elected trans judge in California. But, so I just wanna acknowledge like that, the work part on that, but then also on what, what is not here. You know, I think I kind of naively thought when I, you know, you know, when I came out as queer, a lesbian in the, in 19 9, 19 85, when I was 1919, you know, suddenly there was a whole, there was, there was support groups to go to and there were pride events and there were community groups and there were books.
4 (9m 2s):
And I think in the nineties when I came out, I was sort of naively assuming that there would be something similar for trans people. And at that time there really was not, and the same was true of theology. So I thought, okay, well what is the book that I wished were here? And that’s what they set out to write. I’ll say, I think my, yeah, I think my two contributions to field one is really pushing this, like, it’s the, the more you push into it, the more you think the idea of Genesis one being about a binary is ludicrous because none of those things are binary. So in fact, like the really cool parts of creation are those liminal spaces. And I think that’s, I think that’s important.
4 (9m 47s):
In fact, I was thinking, I was recently, we were driving up on the north shore of Minnesota, long Lake Superior on vacation earlier, and the University of Minnesota has a department called, there’s a sign out front, like the bu that that building is houses the Department of Limnology. And I have no idea what that is. No. Like, you need to look it up. But I feel like that’s queer, trans and trans and non-binary theology’s, like limnology, that’s our, our space. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think, I think that that was an in insight that I really wanted to add into the discourse is really pushing that question of like, if this is true, then what does it say about all the, how do we read the whole rest of the Bible in, in light of God’s decision to create diversity in such like flamboyant, abundant ways, including things that are not easily categorized that the impulse to categorize as human, the impulse to mess up, you know, to blur all the things and, and live ology, whatever that is, that’s the divine piece.
4 (10m 52s):
And then the second thing I think, you know, the, the insight that was really helpful for me, I, I read an article about bio Anglican priest was a, who’s a trans woman in Carol Stone. And she talked about, she was only two things she was sure of in her life, her, her, her calling as a priest and her calling as a woman. And she never expounded on that. And she died of cancer I think shortly thereafter. But that really stuck with me. And then, you know, I think this idea that gender can be a calling sets us outside of the whole debate about, was I born this way? Was I not born? Like people could, people could be who they are, they can follow follow the path that’s correct for them, that’s insightful for them.
4 (11m 33s):
That’s life giving and meaningful for them. Just like you follow any other calling that it can have, not only can it have different permutations or ways it lives out, it must d resisting the, let’s put everybody in a box. This is the trans narrative. No, it’s like vocation we’re called to, called to be our authentic selves. And that looks as different as there are people.
3 (12m 6s):
Where do you see kind of trans theology moving, you know, since you wrote that book into now and, and even into the future?
4 (12m 14s):
I guess there are sort of three things that I see. One is I think people have dealt more, delved more deeply into the understanding of passages that may be used against trans people in the Bible. You know, and I really, I sort of did a starting start on that in the book. Other people have taken it much further, you know, the fact that the Bible is actually, it has mixed, it’s, I think it’s often portrayed that the Bible is anti-trans in the way that the Bible is anti-gay or something. And I think that it’s gender, the Bible’s really a complicated subject. So, you know, so I’ve seen people explore that in, in some deeper ways.
4 (12m 58s):
There’s also certainly research the US trans survey in 2015, for example, used questions about religion. So we’re getting some of the research and some, the writing I think gives us a broader spectrum of what does it mean to be trans, a trans person of faith? What are our religious paths look like? In what ways, you know, there’s just some beginnings of data from research as an area. I would love to see more what does trans religiosity or lived experiences actually look like. And then I think there’s also, you know, there’s certainly expansion of multiple faith perspectives. You know, I love the work that Chris Page has done with, you know, with trans of really, what, what does the interfaith trans movement look like and how do we learn from one another?
4 (13m 42s):
And then, yeah, I guess what what we, I think there’s also, I guess where I see some of the cutting edges is what does it mean to read, read stories in the Bible, or read or think about positions of faith that apply to everyone? What does it mean if we look through our particular lenses on, on them, you know, what is a trans reading of particular, particular passages and how does that help elevate the idea that this, this is a story for, for everyone who finds it meaningful as opposed to, you know, trans people are ungodly and over there and the rest of us get to have the Bible.
4 (14m 28s):
Like that’s not actually how Jesus taught about it, so not the message. So yeah, I guess those are, those are, you know, I, I think what I think what we’re seeing is that is the rich develop development of voices, the addition of other, other stories, you know, biographies of trans people of faith. You know, I I I see a, I see a broadening and deepening of those categories, and I think we’re just beginning to really then, you know, I’m waiting eagerly and I see this in some of my students, you know, what, is it true with someone who’s really lived a non-binary existence for, you know, for a couple decades gonna write about theology? What, what if you came out as non-binary where you’re in junior high, junior and you have lived that way?
4 (15m 13s):
Like, what are your theological insights that are really different than mine? As a, as a someone who transitioned, for example. And like, I’m really eager, I, I’ve seen a startings of that, but I’m really eager to have someone really do a theology from that perspective. I think that’ll be tremendously exciting.
3 (15m 27s):
Yeah. I, I think we’re, we’re, we’re still in a place where we so many of the people that are are, that are living non-binary and, and even trans lives that have transitioned as children, like we, they haven’t really come of age yet, or we’re just starting to see them come of age. Right. And I think that’s gonna be a totally different experience that’s, that’s gonna be really beautiful.
4 (15m 50s):
And they’re making great contributions too, already with like, their stories in media. So like what is it gonna be look like when that translates into theology? So yeah.
3 (16m 0s):
Do you have a, or a particular trans reading of a scripture passage that, that is exciting to you right now?
4 (16m 10s):
Yes. So I’m, I I’ve been working on the story of the Good Samaritan for a on eus that’s being edited by Katie Valentine and Joseph Marshall that we just, we just submitted them. So I’m, I’m really excited about that. But I look at the story of the Good Samaritan because we are so, well the first reading idea of it is that, is the Good Samaritan is a trans person because we are so used to looking the story of the Good Samaritan associated with the way word good with Samaritans, even in laws, right? You can be a good Samaritan in the law, but in fact, Jesus’ listeners hated Samaritans, right?
4 (16m 54s):
They thought they were blasphemous and unworthy and unfaithful. And there was these skirmishes that happened where people are destroying each other’s religious sites and so forth between choosing Samaritans. And Jesus had even tried to go to a Samaritan village a few past, a few chapter chapters of before, and he said his disciples to make a, prepare a place for him and the Samaritans refuse to do so. He can’t go there. And the disciples say like, give us the word well, rain fire and b brimstone down on this village for not accepting you. And Jesus says, not only does not have anything to do with that, like she says, like, wipe the dust for your feet, like move, move on. Like, let it go, let it go people.
4 (17m 35s):
But then, you know, in this, this story that happens very, he lifts up the Samaritan as the spiritual exemplar that everyone has to follow. Like these people that they were like, the disciples were like, let’s, let’s kill them all. And Jesus like, Hey, and not only that, but I’m gonna tell you about this Samaritan who did this amazing thing, and the person that you were supposed to follow, the one who shows mercy, is from this category that just rejected me, right? So it’s this whole turning of the world. So in that chapter, I argue, you know, for a reading for someone for whom trans people are viewed in some category as sinful or generically icky or whatever, ’cause the religious language of about us as tends to be vague and or the anti tends to be sort of vague and about more about discomfort of the person than about actual theology.
4 (18m 37s):
But like, if that’s the person, the person that you thought was unfaithful and gross and unworthy is the one who shows mercy, that’s where you look for mercy. But I also, I also wanna that I think about the story a second time there, what if the a trans person who is the one on the side of the road who’s been beaten by robbers, which is a much more likely scenario, of course, given the tremendous impact of violence and discrimination in our community, es especially for trans women of color, and the helper is someone flying a don’t tread on me flag with a red, white, and blue pickup truck.
4 (19m 20s):
You know? So, you know, listening to conspiracy radio, what does it mean to read this passage and try to get ourselves as close as we can to Jesus’s intent, which is to shock us into saying, we look not at categories of people, but at their merciful actions. And that’s where you find the dominion of God. That’s where you find the person you’re supposed to follow. You know, how do we use it to really shock ourselves in that way, you know, and that Jesus takes this, this risk actually telling the story like that would’ve really upset some of his listeners in order to make this larger spirit in, in order to guide us to, towards a spiritual insight where we’re able to love our enemies or we’re able to show deeper mercy to one another.
4 (20m 8s):
You know? So, so that’s, that’s the passage I’ve been wrestling most, most with. I’m thinking, how do we take something that’s so familiar to people and say, what does it look like if we’re, if we’re viewing these characters from trans perspectives? So
3 (20m 20s):
I love that. I, I think some, so much of our work at Queer Theology is, is helping people to re-encounter texts that have been so familiar as to have lost their edge or, or their shock value, like you said. I think for those of us who like really grew up steeped in scripture, it’s hard to re-encounter texts newly.
4 (20m 46s):
Yes. And, but I think think, I think that process that, that you’re describing is so important because it helps remind us that we’re heirs of this tradition. Like we get to have the best spiritual insights, spiritual growth that we can have, right? We get to, you know, in a cosmic sense, Christ is concerned that we also get that met. We get to learn from the story of the Good Samaritan too. And that by saying I’m not, I, I’m entitled both of the stories about gender and to the stories about anything else in the Bible or in my tradition, because I, because I I’m worthy of, of that attention is an important message for us, I think.
4 (21m 30s):
So I, I think that is a strength of what you all do.
3 (21m 34s):
Yeah. I, you know, I think what you just said is really vital that we, it it’s not just the passages about sexuality and gender that we can look at from a queer or trans perspective. It’s all of it. And that there, there is work to be done in, in all of these different places, and that’s really, really important.
4 (21m 54s):
Yeah.
3 (21m 56s):
What, what recommendation would you give to someone who maybe is like, brand new to trying to read scripture from their own identity? Maybe they’ve just come out or maybe they’ve, they’ve only been taught to read scripture one way. Do you have kind of a start here piece of advice?
4 (22m 17s):
Well, that’s a great question. I do think that there’s, I mean, the first thing is to truly recognize the location that you’re standing on. Like what is the identity from which you are reading this? And I mean that in a multitude of ways. I mean, not just, I mean both around sexual orientation, gender identity, but also around race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, right? Who am I and how am I looking at this text? And in what ways are, in what ways are those identities helping me see greater insights to the text? And in what ways are they, do they create a barrier that helps me see the text from seeing the text clearly?
4 (22m 58s):
You know, are there things that those have precondition me to not to come to the text, you know, but I, I, I guess the best advice I think that someone once gave to me that, that I give to other people in reading the Bible, which is particularly the New Testament, is to say, pick a book, particularly the gospels, particularly Matthew, mark, Luke, and read it through as a story from start to finish, rather than, I feel so many of us have been trained to like, pull out this little passage, and that’s our Bible study or whatever. And they’re actually stories and they come together differently when you read them as a story, you know, or you read the letters as letters, you read the acts as a sort of a, Hey, this is what we did.
4 (23m 41s):
And I think we’ve gotten unhelpfully away from, you know, the many, many cultures that continue to emphasize the importance of storytelling as a way to learn spiritually. And then you can go back and pull those pieces apart and read the lectionary and do all those things later. But, you know, think from where I’m sitting from, who I’m, what does, what does the story have to say to me, and let me just let it flow over me. And that’s where I would start.
3 (24m 9s):
Hmm. Love that. Whatcha seeing, you know, you’re working in, in a seminary in, in an urban area, what are you kind of seeing as, I, I don’t wanna say trends in theological education, that’s, that’s not quite what I’m getting at, but like, you know, as, as people are, are exploring theology and are maybe interested in working in the church, but maybe actually are interested in getting a seminary education and doing something completely different, you know, what are some of the things that you’re seeing from your students right now?
4 (24m 43s):
Our students are amazing. I just love them. So I say a couple of things. One is, you know, particularly being in the Twin Cities where George Floyd was murdered, and where, which is at least a catalyst for a new level of awakening in this country to facts that have always been there, of course. But this increasing awareness, and I think we’re beginning to recognize the, the absolute necessity, the moral necessity, the spiritual necessity of doing anti-racist education, of being an anti-racist people, by which, I mean, not that we’ve arrived, but that we’re struggling every moment against the systemic forces that exist in our society that continue, continue to, you know, overwhelm us with racist messages and fighting back against that.
4 (25m 33s):
But that’s a spiritual, and people I think are grasping that you can’t do theology unless you’re grappling with these issues. And I think that’s really important at this moment that, that, that awareness must not be a fleeting thing, but embedded in theological education, I also definitely see what the trend you’re talking about in terms of people may be going into religious vocations, but they’re also very much going into nonprofit work, activist work, chaplaincy work, you know, other things. And then the, the lines of traditional ministry are blurring. But I think, you know, I, I see we see more and more of our students who are there because they recognize the need for change in the world, and they wanna do it grounded deeply in their values.
4 (26m 20s):
You know, these, these upcoming generations, I think take laudably take very seriously the question of a meaningful life. You know, I grew up in the 1980s, that was not a great time for like, you know, money is not meaning, right? I sort of felt swimming up streamers. Now you can talk with, you know, you could have a conversation about what does it mean to devote yourself to that which you you value most, which has, will leave the place better than you left it. You know? And we certainly have a, I mean, one of the things we, we pride ourselves on and or, you know, strive for, but also our students value is I guess a lot of places. And it’s very easy to do injustice education here.
4 (27m 1s):
Here’s how you can spot systemic racism in housing. Here’s how you can identify a sexist statement. It’s very different to talk instead about, like, it’s not enough that that’s like, that’s step, that’s the pre-step. The, the, the real work begins when you say, how am I an effective change agent in line with my values in, in ways that nudge justice a little further down the road? And how do I get a bunch of companions to come help me do that thing? So I, you know, I would say as someone who’s studied leadership and movements for quite a while, this, this idea of collective and communal leadership strategies where, where you get a bunch of companions and you work together to change some things that’s being birthed right now, I think is, you know, I mean, and has been for a while, but again, it’s just, I see a sort of more of an elevation of, of, of, that I think is really exciting.
4 (28m 2s):
I think we’re getting away from ego-driven leadership, or we, or we’re recognizing that ego-driven leadership is ineffective, and if we wanna change the world, we have to have to do a community based piece. So, you know, I think in the progressive seminar, people are taking that, that seriously. And, and I think we’re still learning how to integrate into theological education questions of sex and gender, sexuality and gender identity. And even, I was talking with a friend when I went to seminary, I graduated in 1990, I was sure that the question of inclusive language would’ve been, like, settled a really long time ago, and it’s still not right.
4 (28m 44s):
Yeah. Churches are still having like conniption fits about, you know, calling Godmother or using non-binary lang know calling God they, despite, you know, the centuries of money of discussion about the Trinity. So even though it’s more biblically accurate, so, you know, I think there’s, we have a lot of theological work to do there as well. And theological schools I think need to, need to focus some on how do we help congregations move along with those pieces. But
3 (29m 23s):
Yeah, there, there does, I mean, this is from my own seminary experience too, of, of a bit of a disconnect between, between I guess what I learned and how then I was taught to, in, in have that conversation or not taught frankly, to have that conversation with congregations. And I think that that’s still, I, I hope that that is a gap that is getting closed, but it, it feels really vital.
4 (29m 50s):
Yeah, I was, I’m really excited because I’m teaching queer and trans theologies this fall, and I’ve been working with the Open affirming coalition, the ucc and, and about ways that with QB Floyd in particular, about how we can make that class count for students to be facilitators of those congregation conversations in their congregations, right? So like, how do we not make this just a, and I’m great grateful to them for this, for, for raising this with me so that we, that we’re really being very intentional about closing that gap. So I think it’s part of, it’s in seminary education, making sure that we’re training people to lead being effective leaders.
4 (30m 32s):
But we’ve also been involved in some research at United, what are the felt needs of clergy between what they’re being confronted with, both with in terms of racial justice, also ec ecological necessity right now, climate change and extreme weather, like these were things that I certainly wasn’t prepared for to deal with in seminary or was in theoretical way. So what are the gaps that clergy are experiencing right now? And what is the responsibility or the possibility of the seminary help helping people make meet, update their skills, update their theology or, or re you know, reconceive it in ways that are, that are useful and effective to them, their congregations, their communities.
4 (31m 22s):
And so,
3 (31m 23s):
Yeah, I would love to know from your experiences that this is a bit of a change in direction in our conversation, but, you know, as someone who, who came out and transitioned in the nineties, you know, where, where have you seen the movement, the trans and non-binary community? Where are the shifts you’re seeing? What is really exciting you about what you’re seeing now? Maybe what concerns you too?
4 (31m 49s):
I, I love the, I love the ever expansiveness of people’s identity and the ways to claim that identity. And, you know, I was on the tail, tail end of the arrow in which you had to, you were expected to be straight after you transitioned. You were expected to be, you know, never tell anyone ever again. Like all of those kind of things. Fortunately, I had a wonderful and queer therapist and you know, I, I never got that, but my peers did from the, you know, that you had to, you know, I remember people, you know, you go to support group and people would share like this, these are the lines you have to say to your therapist, you know, I’m gonna kill myself.
4 (32m 34s):
I’m a man trapped in a woman’s body, whatever. Like, you know, like specific lines you had to say. So you would meet those expectations. So like, the fact that we’ve let that go, like, or, or mostly moved past that, not entirely. The other trend that is so, oh my gosh, that just brings so much joy to me, is running into children, young children whose parents believe them when they say that they’re trans, when they understand the themselves differently than their body appears when their parents love them and support them and make sure they’re in schools that are, that are safeguarding their kids’ rights and taking them to pediatricians who, you know, who offer the family options.
4 (33m 16s):
Like the fact that, like, it would never, never have occurred to me to tell my parents when I was wrestling this, I mean, it was not even a, a thing. And my parents were progressives like, you know, my dad in particular dealt very well with my coming out, but coming, I never me when I was a child. So that, and see the, which parents are protecting their children or c keep my from being transgender, I my child’s life in danger because loving my child comes first. So that’s, that’s an amazing thing.
4 (33m 56s):
And I would also say that we’re like the growing recognition that, or the, the growing level of, of the diver, the diversity of within the movement, the fact that that trend trans organizations are paying attention to their leadership, that they’re recognizing that that people of color have had extensive trans organizations all along, are helping ways to, to, to, you know, that we’re struggling with ways to address racism within our organizations. That we’re, we’re recognizing that the, you know, when we safeguard the rights of those in our community who are most vulnerable, then we all are in a much safer place.
4 (34m 40s):
You know, I think these are things we have to continue to stretch ourselves on to say, if we believe in, if we believe in liberation, if we’re doing this for the wellbeing of trans people, then, you know, racism and poverty and all of those issues have gotta be on our leading, our agenda ending violence, you know, because the, the rates of violence and discrimination against white trans people is astronomical, and then it’s compounded so much racism. So yeah. So just I think paying attention to that. So I think there’s this simultaneously, like we have to record with ourselves. We have to think of what is a, just an accurate representation of trans people in our rights looks like.
4 (35m 21s):
But also, you know, the fact that like most of the kids in our church youth group talk about knowing someone in their high school who’s trans, like as if this is like a duh thing, you know, or non-binary. Like, it’s just, it’s such a different world than I ever imagined. So
3 (35m 40s):
Yeah, I, I think that, you know, the statistics were even just a couple years ago that what 70% of of people in the United States didn’t know, right? Anyone who is trans. And I, I just think if we do that report again in even three years, that number’s gonna be
4 (35m 59s):
Very different,
3 (35m 59s):
Drastically smaller. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to ask like, what, what are you working on right now? What’s, what is occupying your time? What are you excited about?
4 (36m 9s):
I just finished a rewrite of the chapter I did on Philippians and the Queer Bible Commentary, and I’m, and the article on Transform antics on the, about the Good Samaritan. I’m also working on my PhD dissertation was about queer artists who’ve been doing, using spirituality in their work for decades. And I profiled four of them. But I’m really interested in this question of how queer artists depict religiosity or spirituality that’s outside of religious institutions and the ways in which we can use queer and trans culture as a lens to understand spirituality in a different way.
4 (36m 53s):
And particularly like, well, both how we can document what that is in as a good in and of itself. This is a spiritual expression of what it means to live differently, to love differently, to be who we are, but also what can release institutions learn, learn from people who reject the hypocrisy of the church or the, the rejection of the church, but maintain rich spiritual, spiritual lives. And so I’m working on getting that towards, towards publication. And while I ended up using gay and lesbian artists, so much of their work, actually d deals with the, with the liminality of gender and the ways in which gender is differently expressed as well.
4 (37m 43s):
So it’s, it’s, I understand why we te when we’re doing like trans, why we tell people the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. But this is another category where, in which actual human beings living this, I’m like, muddied up the water, like own other people. Yeah. So I’m really excited about that in the ways in which there’s a, there’s kind of resilience and profundity and faithfulness that you see in, in, in queer art about faith that, that I, I wanna lift up and celebrate and, and think of, think of the artists as, as a field, as a particular kind of theological tool.
3 (38m 24s):
Who are some of the artists that you looked up?
4 (38m 26s):
So there’s a gay artist in Mexico City named, who has this fascinating story I wrote about it in, in a book called Unlocking Orthodoxies. But he was a young gay child in rural Mexico and envisioned the Virgin Mary as his mother, and Jesus as his father, as a, like an alternative loving family to the complexities of living as a, as a gay boy. And so, so he always had this family to turn to, and he has this particular devotion to the Virgin Arian is one of his paintings called Bene Blessings, in which he and his, his lifelong partner are standing with their arms around each other.
4 (39m 8s):
And the Virgin Mayor, Virgin Guadalupe on her Thema Tillman on their traditional image is standing above them reigning the, the flower. The roses are just raining down over that blessing man. You know, so what does that say about like, the blessings of the virgin on, on their love, you know? So that was one of the artists, Alma Lopez from Los Angeles, who did this amazing series on queers, queer saints, among other things, using butch women, gender diverse women, to look to explore saints who are sort of fell outside the gender binary, like St. Wil Fortis and some of these like weird stories of gender transformation in, in, in the Saints.
4 (39m 53s):
And Elizabeth Olson Wallen, who’s a Swedish photographer. So I look at a series that she did in Jerusalem in which people were deli pictured, deliberately defying the, some of the things in the Bible, like, man shall not lie with a man with showing to men out in public under the walls of Jerusalem. You know, they do these sort of gorilla actions, which people would run in and take the picture, and then they disband. And then the last one is down How, who’s an artist in New Mexico who did a series about the Greco Roman pantheon using gay cowboys, exploring this sort of role of like this myth, the mythos and the figures.
4 (40m 39s):
He also did the stations of the cross that took place of the New York peers in the 1970s, kind of as a metaphor of it’s out of time, but as a metaphor for the AIDS epidemic as well. But there’s a number of o other artists that I looked at along that I studied and wrote about in the process along the way, all of who had sort of for that project, I, I simply focus on people who’ve been involved for a long time, who have, they have a long canon of stuff and people have written about them, which is what you need for your PhD. Yes, there’s a lot of other artists, like we’re having an exhibit with Daniel ar the Venezuelan artist who does a lot of, to this campaign called Noso.
4 (41m 23s):
I’m Not a Joke, which does these beautiful brightly colored, affirming images of LGBTQ people, same sex, love transgender people as this way of positive affirmation. So we’re gonna have him, his work exhibit at United in the Fall. And I’m really excited about, I’m excited about being in seminary where we have these great gender queer and queer images of, of, you know, men with beards made of flowers and all, you know, all these kind Yeah. Self affirming images up on our walls. It’d be a great way to, to teach. So
3 (42m 1s):
Yeah. One of the things that I just, I love about the work that United does is their emphasis on the arts and the, and the, and the kind of conversation between theology and arts. Can you speak a little bit about how you see, how, how you see art and theology going together, and also how those two things either together or separately can really work to bring about change in the world?
4 (42m 29s):
Absolutely. I think art offers us imaginative possibilities to see things that don’t yet exist. And I think to be able to show, in particularly in the work I’ve done with queer art, art, but it’s true in other ways as well, to show queer and trans people as holy, for example, as saints, as worthy of sacred art, sense of a radical theological message that you’re used to being, seeing people who you know, who look like it everyone else or who were not included in this.
4 (43m 12s):
You know, David Vo the artist, you know, did this great image of Jeana as a saint. So just, this is a long trend, but he was trying to uplift to someone who’d been a sex worker like himself as, as a holy figure. So I think this is this really great way of like sacrificing people, but also envisioning a world in which those people are saints or those people are, are holy and sacred worth, you know? So it can envision a different world. And I think the arts also have this really important function of making that which is invisible and ineffable. Something that tangible that we can see, right? So if you draw a picture of God, you’re drawing something that you cannot see and cannot touch into an object that’s actually in three dimensions made of Atos that’s solid, you know, that you can put your hands on.
4 (44m 2s):
And I, I think in that way, I think this is where, you know, the, the Orthodox tradition of icons is sort of this portal between the holy and the, and I think that’s true of, of probably, of all art and particularly sacred art, but it creates this way of, of making that which we cannot see into something tangible and real that we connect with. And that’s really powerful. But yeah, I love the, the program that my colleague Jennifer O. Freeman has, has done there, and Cindy Johnson who has been there before. And, you know, they’ve always emphasized this, you know, the art should be something that, that changes, that changes us, changes the social landscape, changes us as, as spiritual people, that, that introduces ideas into our collective moral imagination.
3 (44m 54s):
If someone wanted to find your work or find you on the interwebs, where, where could they look?
4 (45m 1s):
They could look at United seminary edu on the faculty page, and there I am. That be one place.
3 (45m 9s):
Great. And we’ll put, we’ll put a link to your, your book in the show notes as well. That’d be
4 (45m 14s):
Great
3 (45m 18s):
With everyone, we are doing a rapid four, four questions rapid round so you can answer with one word, with a sentence, whatever comes to you. But the first one is, what’s your favorite thing about your identity? And you can define identity in a multiplicity of ways.
4 (45m 36s):
I appreciate about my identity as a trans man that I was raised with a socially student of a girl, which helps me become a gentle man. The kind of man that, that, that I wanna be. So I’m grateful for that.
3 (45m 50s):
If you could tell young people one thing, what would it be?
4 (45m 54s):
To craft their life with abandoned and care. And you’ll not regret the things that you, the adventures that you choose to go on life is an adventure.
3 (46m 8s):
What is your favorite portrayal of trans men in the media? This could be a book, a movie,
4 (46m 14s):
You know, what comes to mind first is just the lived community of, of people. So probably study art. I’m much better with like, the real flesh of blood people. I, I would say the, yeah,
3 (46m 26s):
Love that. And then finally, what’s something that’s bringing you joy? Lately,
4 (46m 31s):
We moved two years ago to Minnesota, and I treasure all the time that the opportunities to be outside here. So the incredible trees is incredible land here. And at this exact moment, my garden, which is bursting with zucchini and tomatoes and carrots and all the things.
3 (46m 48s):
Love it. Well, thank you so, so much for, for doing this and for being in conversation today. It was really lovely.
5 (46m 56s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we [email protected], which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To
2 (47m 5s):
Dive into more of the action, visit [email protected]. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.
5 (47m 13s):
We’ll see you next week.
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48 min
November 02, 2025The First Gospel
For this episode, we’re diving into the Gospel of Mark. We unpack why Mark was likely the first Gospel written, who it was written for, and what was happening politically under Roman occupation. Drawing on scholarly interpretation, we look into how Mark’s storytelling and its urgency, as well as its focus on common people, challenge the Empire and center the marginalized. This perspective also redefines discipleship as active resistance through themes like repentance, liberation, and community transformation, showing how Mark’s “good news” remains a radical call to action for today’s world.
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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.
2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from
1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how
2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome back to the Ology podcast. This week we are gonna do a deep dive into the gospel of Mark, and I am so excited. This is
1 (40s):
Me too.
2 (41s):
This is where I get to be like super nerdy and this is my favorite stuff in the world. And so, yeah, so I’m excited to dive in. I, I feel like we’ve talked about this a lot, but I know that for me, I was not raised with looking at the historical context at all of the Bible where even reading the gospels right, we like try to jam all four of them.
1 (1m 7s):
Yep. Yeah. Together
2 (1m 8s):
Into one coherent narrative. And so we are not gonna do that on this, this podcast. We’re really gonna dig, take a deep dive into looking at just what does Mark say and why does Mark say it and all of those things. And I’m, I’m super excited. Brian, why are you excited to talk about the gospel of Mark? I
1 (1m 28s):
Mean, for a lot of those same reasons, I think before I, so I studied film production in college, but I also studied religion in college. And when I added religion as a second area of focus, my parents were like, when we said double major or minor, we meant like math or business, not another, not useless, but not another soft area of study. So I am, I stu, this is like my jam. I studied religion in undergrad. One of my classes that I took was actually just the entire name of the class was called Jesus. So I kept saying I have to go to Jesus class. And I think my friends all semester long thought that I was like, it was actually like religion 4 0 3, like the world of the New Testament or something like that.
1 (2m 11s):
And they were, and it was like, no, it was like religion 4 0 3 colon, Jesus. So I’m really excited to sort of like be nerdy about that. I also, like you, I think before, before studying this had a similar approach of the gospels of like, they all tell different parts of the same story and we can sort of like smush them all together to get a coherent picture. And you know, even just sort of like a, an activity pageant at church has the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke smush together and there’s no births and they’re totally, totally different, but they get smushed together in our popular imagination and there’s no birth story in in Mark, which we’ll get to.
1 (2m 54s):
But, so I’m excited about that just from like a nerdy sort of like I get to dive into this world of academia that I I that I find it fascinating and hopefully make it interesting for y’all. But I think also on a personal level that this sort of work of seeing the gospels for what they were and what they were intended to be and the ways in which they are different and the sources that they draw upon and that then like the ways in which they go on to influence other sources and our theology and our lives, it was sort of like a process of like demystifying my faith and what I believes in about the Bible.
1 (3m 38s):
And I think like through the process of demystifying it, then I emerged on the other side of that with a much more like I was able to like re-size it and like demystify and then like make it sacred again that this, we don’t want to just stop at facts about Jesus or about the gospel of Mark, but like, I think like the question that sort of underlies all of this is like, and then so what, like what does this say about our lives, our world, our communities, our faith, our spiritual practices?
1 (4m 20s):
And like when I’m able to see the gospel of Mark more clearly, I can like more fully enter the world of both Jesus and Mark and then bring Jesus un mark and that message along with me to the current millennia and it becomes like a divine voice still speaking. And so I think that we’re hoping to merge the head of this with like the heart of faith. And so that’s why I’m excited about this.
2 (4m 51s):
Yeah. So this week we’re gonna look all around the background information, talk a lot about some of the political and historical context, some of the unique features of Mark, of which there are a lot, and also dive into some of the major themes. And then over the next several weeks we’re gonna pull out some of those themes by looking at specific stories in the gospel mark. And so I wanna start by saying that it’s really important that we look at things like the background information, like when it was written, to whom was it written, because that really impacts how we read and understand these texts.
2 (5m 35s):
And I also wanna just name that we are indebted to other scholars that have done this work. We’re relying a lot on Che Meyer’s book Binding the Strong Man. If you want a deep and nerdy dive all into the gospel of Mark, that’s a great book. We’re also using the new interpreter’s commentary for other background information. And so we’re really drawing on that. We’re not just like making shit up, right? This is drawing on a lot of scholarly research to look at these different things. And as we talk about and read the gospel of Mark, I we’re also focusing just on Mark. And the reason that that’s important is that this author, whoever wrote Mark, is telling a really particular story in a particular way to particular people.
2 (6m 24s):
And so when we bring in things that we know from the other gospels or we try to, you know, mash them all together, we’re actually doing ourselves and the text to disservice, like this was meant to be read on its own as a very particular thing. And so that is how we’re gonna do it.
1 (6m 42s):
And also at the time that Mark was written, there weren’t yet other gospels. Like Mark was definitely the first gospel written. And so like the, the, the original audience so would not have been able to even bring in ideas from the other gospels because like they had not yet been created,
2 (6m 57s):
Though they may have had other oral traditions. Sure, sure. And so Mark is definitely like choosing from the oral tradition specific stories to tell a particular narrative. And the other thing that we need to remember as we look into all of this is that there are two times operating at the same time, right? There’s the time about which the author of Mark is writing. So Mark is writing about Jesus in a specific time, but there’s also the time in which the author of Mark is living. And those are two very different times. And as we’ll see, mark is bringing in things from his time and telling stories about Jesus in his time to like make meaning today, which is what we’re gonna do as well.
2 (7m 49s):
But it’s important to, to be able to separate those things out and to realize that when Mark quote unquote makes mistakes that often he’s making them intentionally. So, alright, let us dive in to some of this background. So Brian, you already said Mark is the first gospel. Can you talk a little bit more about that and when Mark was written?
1 (8m 14s):
Sure. So I I I, before we started recording this episode, I was like, I’m pretty sure it was written like around 70, around 70, like post Jesus common era. And then I confirmed that that is the one when most scholars believe that that was to be written. So that I, I written in Greek probably maybe with some quotes in other languages and I think I now I would have to like brush up on this, but I think like some folks think that Mark was writing more to a Roman or a Gentile audience and like making that case or at least sort of like writing in the context of Roman occupation of Jerusalem and the conflict that was brewing there.
2 (9m 9s):
Yeah. So Chen Meyers thinks that Mark has written prior to 70 during the revolt. So after 66 prior to 70, that’s the window that he’s, that he’s working in. I think other scholars have, some have said slightly past 70, right? All of, yeah,
1 (9m 30s):
Yeah.
2 (9m 30s):
All of those things we don’t know entirely. Yeah. And
1 (9m 33s):
So let’s just for for a second like to, for folks who don’t know, like what happened in 66 and then in 70 that like in 66 common era there was sort of like a Jewish insurrection in Jerusalem to reclaim the holy land as you know, like the gospels are set in in time when Jerusalem is like still under Roman oc occupation. How to relate to the Roman occupiers is a big theme definitely in Mark and in other gospels as well and in other writings of the Christian New Testament. And so seized re seized Jerusalem in 66, held it for a while and then in 70 common era the Raman army was able to quash that rebellion, completely destroy the temple with everything except for the western wall, which is sometimes called the whaling wall, which is now a sacred site in Jerusalem.
1 (10m 21s):
That’s all that remains of the second temple and expel the kill and expel a large portion of the Jewish folks from Jerusalem and even Israel larger than that. And sort of a return to exile.
2 (10m 39s):
Yeah. So this idea of Roman occupation, this idea of the temple state and, and the political economy of that time and the ways in which some of the temple was in collusion with Rome. Mark critiques a lot of that. So this is all like really important background to understanding how to read Mark and what Mark was trying to say. And I just wanna name that like we’re talking about Mark as the author of Mark, but like the reality is that we dunno who wrote Mark, it was probably not one of the disciple mark’s.
2 (11m 21s):
Mark was a super common name. Lots of lots of biblical texts are written and named after people, but we know that those people didn’t write those. And so as we talk about Mark, we are not talking about a specific mark, we’re talking about whoever the author was of this gospel that has been named after Mark. But Che Meyers and other scholars think that Mark wrote this text in or near Northern Palestine, that it was written to a mostly gentile audience because some of the things that Mark describes, he just gets wrong and he was Jewish or from the Jewish community that he wouldn’t have gotten them wrong.
2 (12m 6s):
So that’s just important to note. I wanna read this from binding the Strong Man because I think it’s, this is actually really fascinating and also really important. He says Mark is written in Greek, but a notoriously poor Greek peppered with Latin and Semitic syntactic in idiomatic intrusions indicating that Greek was Mark’s second language. And assuming that Mark writes from Palestine, this is not surprising, but the things that are sprinkled in the Latin sources that are are sprinkled in the gospel are all military, judicial or economic terms, which is really fascinating to me.
2 (12m 46s):
And he’s pulling them in because this was a, a people and a population that’s under Roman colonial administration. And so all of these different terms that have become a part of their language have come because of occupiers, right. Of occupiers that have taken over this land. And so when he’s using those terms too, he’s making really specific political and military digs, which I think is fascinating and we’re gonna, we’re gonna really dive deep into that next week, but just know that that is kind of happening and, and pay attention to that in the background.
2 (13m 32s):
Alright. We’ve talked a little bit about some of the political and historical background around the temple. What else, Brian, do you know or wanna bring out about this, the period in which Mark was writing? So again, not the period in which Jesus is living, but the period in which Mark is writing about when Jesus was living.
1 (13m 54s):
Sure. So one of the things that I want to bring out is I think a actually in this case applies to both the period that Jesus was living and the period when Mark was writing that, like around the first century was a time of like a lot of, like, there was a bunch of different Jewish sex that were all sort of like wrestling together with like, what does it mean to be a Jewish people in general? And in particular, what does it mean to be Jewish in oc like under Roman occupation, there had been folks who had claimed to be the Messiah in the past that had like attempted to lead revolts, things like that.
1 (14m 37s):
Also that there were sort of like three main groups at around that time. The Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Enes that like folks might have heard of. And I think it’s like, I just like wanna underscore that like we, sometimes we Christians sometimes use like pharisees like in a sort of a derogatory sense. And I think it’s like really important to name that like modern rabbinic Judaism is like descended from the Pharisees. And so it’s not like this, they’re not these like evil people from the past. It’s like a rich and vibrant and justice oriented culture that continues to today. I was saw like a rabbi who was saying, who was proposing that perhaps Jesus himself might have been a Pharisee and it was like an inter, a lot of his like digs against the Pharisee were not, were like coming from place of like in intra community arguments about like, what does Jewish identity mean?
1 (15m 33s):
And so I think like that sort of like background of this time of like, what do we do? Like how does a temple fit in like the ways in which Rome had been occupying, not just Jerusalem, but also sort of like influencing temple life, temple practices, things that were displayed at the temple, I think was a big source of conflict. And the sort of like how do we respond to Rome like assimilation, armed resistance, nonviolent resistance, like all of that is sort of like swirling around, especially in the context of if we take sort of Che Meyer’s dating of like post the start of the revolt, pre destruction of the temple, like we’re like in the middle of it.
1 (16m 20s):
And these theological claims that folks are making also have deeply like political consequences also have like are can be like life or death. Like are we going to get slaughtered? How do we survive? How do we survive this occupation? How do we survive into the future? And being such a small minority that has dealt with, you know, exile and occupation in the past this was sort of like, you know, I swear, but other times we both in the past in the, in the present, like the future of all the Jewish people kind of like potentially hangs in the balance here.
2 (16m 57s):
Yeah. And, and that there’s also, you know, there’s not a separation of the political and yeah. The spiritual that, that you cannot read any of these actions that these various Jewish groups are taking as separate from religious religiously motivated action, but also like the political and the religious is so intertwined that we can’t separate them out. So as we’re reading, you know, and we’re talking about political meanings, it, I I think some folks are like, well, you just, you’re always turning the gospel into a political text and it’s like, yeah. Because it’s like these things are so intertwined and, and it’s important that we not separate them out.
2 (17m 43s):
I think too, to your point Brian, that th this is, this had been an ongoing process of small groups taking sometimes symbolic action, sometimes political action, sometimes violent action as a way to kind of fight back against their oppressors. And that we are gonna see more of that in, in mark. And that mark is actually also encouraging people to, to do more of that. And that many of the things that he attributes to Jesus, many of the actions that he attributes to Jesus are in line with these symbolic actions that other groups have been taking.
2 (18m 24s):
So Jesus is coming out of a line of people that were already doing this work. It’s not like, it’s not like nothing was happening and then Jesus came and st things started to happen. Like he is part of a system and a and a and a people that are already fighting back. And so, so some of the question is how shall we fight back in line of what Jesus is teaching? One of the stories that Myers tells in his book, which I think is really, really fascinating, is that there was a group that, that fought back that they engaged in this action and the first thing that they did was burned the public archives where the records of debt were capped.
2 (19m 9s):
And it’s
1 (19m 9s):
Like, oh, I love that.
2 (19m 10s):
Right? Like this, this is a, a fight back in a, in a spiritual sense, but it’s also very much a protest against economic oppression. And, and like those, those things are all intertwined and I think that that’s, that’s really beautiful and we’re gonna find a bit more resonance as we, as we dig even deeper into this.
1 (19m 32s):
And that was like, like a Jewish resistance action, not a specifically like Jesus followers.
2 (19m 40s):
Correct. Yeah.
1 (19m 41s):
Because at this point Christianity doesn’t ask, doesn’t exist and that like, I mean at around 70, like into like the hundreds, like continuing on into like is like, this is when Christianity is beginning to start to pull away, but at, at this point it’s still very much not a separate thing yet.
2 (19m 59s):
Yeah, yeah. And that all of these things, like so much of, of the conflict that’s happening religiously is also a conflict about class, right? It’s about violence. Yeah. It’s about oppression, right? You can’t, you can’t separate those things out. So let’s talk a little bit about Mark. There are some really unique things about Mark, especially in line with the other gospels. You mentioned earlier, Brian, that there the, there’s no birth narrative. What do we do with that?
1 (20m 35s):
Yeah, I, so I think like the first thing is that like, it, it just wasn’t important to Mark. We do see in, so some of the, right, some of the letters in the New Testament from Paul, et cetera, likely date to around this time perhaps before it. And they, there are some references to sort of like the, you know, either like virgin things like that. But we don’t have, you know, the robust, the robust birth narratives are really in Matthew and Luke. I likely come from an oral tradition that had been circulating before they were written down there, but at least for Mark, he’s not concerned about about Jesus’ birth and kind of just like jumps right into the action of it all.
1 (21m 21s):
And I think like that’s really interesting, especially as the first gospel to be written that for the first one it really wasn’t that important.
2 (21m 31s):
Yeah. And, and like you said, he jumps right into the action. That’s kind of one of the characteristics of Mark, that it’s, it’s really rather spartan. There’s not a lot of detail. He, it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of like, Jesus did this and then he did this and then he did this. And so because of this, when Mark chooses to tell a similar story twice, which he does in, in a couple of different places, we need to really pay attention to those stories to pay attention to the differences between them and why Mark would have chosen to tell them a, a similar story in two different times. Mark also uses a really interesting literary device often where he starts telling a story, he interrupts that story with another story, and then he returns to the original story.
2 (22m 18s):
He does this all over the gospel. And so that’s something to pay attention to, to, as you’re reading. Also, I, I think it’s really important to note that when Mark calls his text a gospel, he’s actually starting a new literary form. That that form in antiquity didn’t exist before. Mark wrote it down that a gospel was a verbal proclamation, often a political proclamation. And so for Mark to do a written story and to call it a gospel, he starting something entirely new, which I think is really fascinating and beautiful.
2 (23m 2s):
And it’s something that we miss, right? Because we, we have four gospels, we know a lot about the gospels, we talk about it all the time. But to know that he’s actually starting something new is really cool. And
1 (23m 13s):
I think it’s important to like dis to distinguish like gospel from history, right? Because like history written, history existed and even like written history is part of the Hebrew scriptures. Like parts of like, this is history, this is like myth maybe. And that the gospel is something else other than a strict history. It’s, you know, a religio political propaganda in some way. That it’s, it’s, it’s making a case for something not simply recording it. It’s not a history book.
2 (23m 44s):
Yes. And that the other thing that’s really unique about Mark is that Mark’s story is for and about common people, which was also different in a lot of texts that we find in Kodi that were written about, you know, the upper class, the ruling class royalty. Here we have a text that is very much centered on fishermen and people who are poor and that that’s also a unique thing. And so that’s, that’s something to pay attention to with Mark
1 (24m 18s):
Too. And that’s also kind of in, its in a way like making a statement, right? That like these people and these stories like deserve to be written down in the same way that we write about emperors and generals. And that like, it’s kinda like pointing a finger and saying like, this, this here this is, this matters. Yes.
2 (24m 38s):
Yeah. So there are a lot of major themes in Mark, but many of them kind of circle around each other. Mark talks a lot about discipleship, which we’re gonna talk more about next week. He talks a lot about debt and literal economic debt and purity, which is interesting. We’re gonna talk more about purity in week three. He also talks about repentance. And I, I think it’s important, you know, often when we hear about repentance, especially for those of us who grew up in evangelical or more conservative cultures, we think of repentance as a spiritual thing.
2 (25m 23s):
I mean, how were you taught about repentance, Brian?
1 (25m 26s):
Yeah, I remember like there’s this, this sort of like visual representation of like turning away, right? That like, it, like it definitely, I think for me there was some element of like a change of action follows a change of heart that like, ’cause it was like, part of it was trying to get around this whole, which we talked about with our salvation stuff. Like what is salvation? And if you say this prayer and you accept Jesus, like, can you be unsaved? But then like if your actions are bad, maybe you never were really a Christian. And so like for me there was some element of like your actions should reflect your repentance to sort of like prove that you like really mean it.
1 (26m 12s):
But it was definitely like, but like the actual sort of like theologically significant event was sort of like the reorientation of your heart. And then from that, the like appropriate actions will follow. And also for me, the appropriate actions that follow in that process definitely didn’t have anything to do with debt. Like, like economic debt or Roman occupation or violence. It was like sexual purity and just like that, like the word discipleship was a word that I, that I heard a lot growing up and in, in that church world, but it was like really vaguely defined like what discipleship meant.
1 (26m 57s):
And it was like, you know, because I remember like, leave your nets behind, you have to actually like take action and like do stuff in the world. But it was like, I think the actions that we were supposed to be taking was like reading your bible daily and like praying and like being a witness in your secular workplace in some way so that people would be like, oh, he’s so professional and so nice and kind and really honors his word and doesn’t gossip. So like look how godly he is. Like maybe I want a taste of that. Jesus. Also, it wasn’t ever to sort of like change material conditions of, of the world. It was like this sort of like personal piety that then you sort of like project it onto the world to then attract people to their own sort of personal piety.
2 (27m 44s):
Yeah. It’s, it’s very much like me and Jesus, right? It’s, it’s me and God. It’s, it’s an individual process of conversion. It’s not a political or communal process of of conversion. Yeah. Which is very different than what Mark is talking about when Mark is talking about repentance, mark’s talking about turning away from empire, which is a very different, a different thing
1 (28m 9s):
For a lot of conservative Christianity. Repentance is turning towards empire it seems like. Yeah.
2 (28m 13s):
Right. And, and along with this, this theme of repentance is Mark’s theme of resistance, which is about, you know, both, both churning away from empire but then also being actively resisting of it and to Meyer says to find meaningful ways to impede imperial progress, right? Yes. In which is, which is awesome and we’re gonna talk more about that. Mark is also talking a lot about liberation from specific structures of oppression and, and he’s also talking about the ways that when you are under those structures of oppression that it embeds into your spirituality and your personality.
2 (29m 6s):
And so like when we’re talking about getting freed spiritually, it’s also about getting freed politically. Like for Mark, these two things are together. Yeah. Which I think is you
1 (29m 20s):
Can’t have one one or the other in many ways.
2 (29m 22s):
Exactly. Yeah. So Meyer says thus the per the purpose of the author of Mark was not to merely present certain ideas about Jesus or to warn his readers against some group distinct from themselves and this is what’s key, but to lead his readers through a particular story in which they discover themselves and thereby change. And like That right there is huge and we’re gonna keep coming back to that. The other, just a couple more kind of main themes of Mark that, that his gospel is structured around three kinds of symbolic action.
2 (30m 3s):
There are lots of journeys across the sea of Galilee representing the imperative to overcome the social structures of segregation between Jew and Gentile. So that’s one, there are lots and lots of healings of social outcasts, which were representative of the imperative to overcome the social structures of class division. And there are multiple feedings of poor masses in the wilderness representing a practice of economic sharing. So as you read the gospel of Mark, pay attention to journeys across the Sea of Galilee, healings of social outcasts and feedings of poor people. Those are things that we’re gonna talk about a lot.
1 (30m 43s):
Yes.
2 (30m 44s):
And one more thing from Myers. He says these three narrative strands also represent the key aspects in Jesus’s Messianic program confronting the old order, constructing an alternative order, and bringing liberation to the poor.
1 (31m 0s):
Hmm. Oof. Yeah,
2 (31m 2s):
Good stuff.
1 (31m 3s):
Yeah, I think like as you were sort of going over those sort of like three kinds of symbolic actions, I was like thinking about like, sort of like flashing in my head was all the various stories of the Bible that I’ve heard about Jesus crossing the Sea of Galilee or Jesus healing this or that person or the various like fishes and loaves stories feeding the people. And I’m like, oh yeah, like I know all of these stories individually, but like when you just sort of like shine this particular light on it, you’re like, oh yeah, like this is what’s happening. But we, I had been so conditioned to read them as like little personal narratives or it was, everything was pointing towards Jesus as like a superhero, like glowing God walking around on earth with magic powers that I like missed the like ways in which all this is absolutely present and like why like Jesus could have healed anyone or could have fed anyone or could have journeyed anywhere.
1 (32m 9s):
Like what does these actions in these contexts mean and why is Mark highlighting them?
2 (32m 20s):
Yeah. And I think like for me when I started to uncover some of this, it was like, oh, oh, this is the good stuff, right? Yeah. Like this is, this is a much more inspiring and powerful and challenging call to be involved in something than like pray a prayer in the right kind of way and get, get your, get outta hell free card. And that it also, like there are so many things that are really, really subtle that we miss if we don’t know all of these contexts.
2 (32m 60s):
And also that because they’ve been missed, have been taught in really, frankly, often the opposite way than they were intended to be taken. Yeah. We’re gonna talk next week about, about the thing that you mentioned earlier. You know, leave your nets and follow me and like the actual meaning of that is gonna blow your mind and it’s so, so excited to talk more about it. But it’s like I, that’s why it’s so important to do this work and to really dig into this because it totally changes how you read and frankly for me it, it makes it so much more exciting and, and I’m excited to, to keep, to keep diving into this.
1 (33m 41s):
Yeah. So I think like when I think about sort of like my journey through faith, I think the, the way that I first approached the Bible was to take just like everything at face value and usually face value was also like the face value that the pastor told me was face value and just sort of like accept it all as like this is like literal history actually happened. This is who the, Jesus was. Like we have this like divinely inspired book great. Like we can know exactly who Jesus was. And then that I like started to look at the bible and scripture and translation and sort of how it was passed along and like copied and recreated over the years. I like started to bring a more sort of, you know, critical eye to it.
1 (34m 24s):
And like one of the things that we did when we, when I was stu like studying Jesus and in the undergraduate was like, this is the work of the Jesus seminar is sort of like trying to figure out, like trying to get at like the historical Jesus. So I don’t know if for folks are familiar, Matthew, mark and Luke are sometimes called the synaptic gospels. We, there’s a lot to that. But so we like look at like what stories are in Matthew, mark, and Luke. I’m like, that means something that they’re like in all three as opposed to just two or just in one or trying to compare the sayings of Jesus to other sayings of Jesus to try and figure out like what did Jesus most likely say versus like maybe Mark added this or maybe Matthew embellish that.
1 (35m 8s):
I think you can get a Bible written by the Jesus seminar that has like varying shades of red letters from like black to dark red to light pink or whatever. That’s sort of like there sort of this Jesus seminars assessment of like, Jesus almost certainly actually said this. Jesus almost certainly didn’t say this to try and like get at the real quote unquote Jesus. And I think I’ve like since moved a little bit beyond that. So like we can never know for sure what this person named Jesus in 30 CE did, said, went if he existed, like I guess maybe, probably, but like we can’t ever know for sure that.
1 (35m 56s):
And so all of Christianity is like based on what these earliest Christians thought and believed about Jesus and what they felt was important and what they passed on to us. And so not that it like, doesn’t matter like what Jesus actually did, but that like what Mark was saying about Jesus and the claims that Mark was making, just like the claims that Paul was making, just like the claims that Luke and John, all these folks that are writing those claims about Jesus in their context, I think is like just as important as whoever this person was that we can’t ever really know.
1 (36m 40s):
’cause there weren’t video cameras back then. And so like wrestling with what we do have is like super, super important.
3 (36m 47s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we [email protected], which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.
4 (36m 56s):
To dive into more of the action, visit [email protected]. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.
3 (37m 4s):
We’ll see you next week.
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The post The First Gospel appeared first on Queer Theology.
38 min
October 26, 2025Angelic Troublemakers: Edafe Okporo
We had the pleasure of speaking with activist and author, Edafe Okporo. Edafe was born in Warri, Nigeria. He migrated to the United States in 2016 as an asylum seeker and is now a refugee of the United States. He is a global gay rights activist, the founder of Refuge America, and one of the country’s most visible voices on the issue of displacement. We spoke about the issues of detainment for immigrants in the US, especially difficult for trans people seeking asylum and LGBTQ people. Edafe’s story is inspiring and powerful, reminding us that our work for equality must include marginalized people in the immigrant community. Edafe is the author of the book “ASYLUM: A Memoir and Manifesto.” He brings a personal commitment to his refugee work and the premise of his book- that home is not where you feel safe and welcome only but also how you make others feel safe and welcome.

Learn more about Edafe:
Web: https://www.edafeokporo.com/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edafeokporo
IG: https://www.instagram.com/edafeokporo
Order your copy of ASYLUM, A Memoir & manifesto: https://www.edafeokporo.com/book
To learn more about the immigration detention system in the U.S:
https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/
https://www.refugeamerica.org/

Resources:
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community
If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
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3 (1m 40s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.
4 (1m 43s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts
3 (1m 47s):
From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how
4 (1m 53s):
Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we are continuing our series on angelic troublemakers. Last week we talked to a veteran of the fight, and this week we’re talking to someone who’s newer. We’re delighted to be interviewing Afi Ro AFI is the author of the book Asylum, a memoir and manifesto. And in it he brings a personal commitment to his refugee work and the premise of the book that home is not where you feel safe and welcome only, but also how you make others feel safe and welcome.
4 (2m 34s):
Aada Porro was born in Wari Nigeria. He immigrated to the United States in 2016 as an asylum seeker and is now a refugee of the United States. AFI is a global gay rights activist, the founder of Refuge America, and one of the country’s most visible voices on the issue of displacement. Leading an organization with a vision to strengthen as a place of welcome for the L-G-B-T-Q, displaced people, a graduate of a NoGo State University and the School of business at NYU. He currently lives in New York City. This is an amazing conversation. We’re so excited to invite you in to learn more about a dafis work.
5 (3m 12s):
Well welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. So excited to dive in and dive, hear more about you and your story and your work. I would love to, to start out with just asking, can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and and what that was like for you and if, if there was any kind of religious upbringing that was a part of that.
6 (3m 36s):
Hi, my name is a, I grew up in war Nigeria, the south of Nigeria. My family come from the African traditional religion of Du State and they were worshipers of Shang Western Godde. My father still practiced the African traditional religion until 1999. So in 1999 there was gonna be the Y 2K, the dawn of the new millennium. So on December 31st, 1999, I still remember I was like nine years old. We all run into a church. It does the church in my community like a big Ezra.
6 (4m 21s):
We went there, we were praying till 12th and 12th. They like, happy New Year, you survived the white two. This is not a distraction. My father left the African traditional religion and baptized as a Christian, but my mom in 2003, I baptized as a Christian too and went through the confirmation process and I was taking communion until I was matured and I became a Pentecostal. I left the Anglican church when I was like 16 or so.
7 (4m 57s):
Yeah. And what was it that sort of drew you from the Anglican Church into the Pentecostal church?
6 (5m 4s):
It’s interesting because I didn’t know the driver in particular. When I left, I went to a boarding school and I got admitted to college at 17 or so and everybody in my college were going to the Pentecostal church, so I decided to join them. Sure. And you know, if you are going to become a priest, you have to go a school and it’s a long process, but to become a pastor in the Pentecost Church, you have to tongues and you do to six weeks seminar and you’re a pastor.
6 (5m 46s):
And I wanted to be a pastor because I felt like me as a gay person, that I was possessed and maybe if I become a pastor to end every condemnation that I’m supposed to face and become this straightforward person. And yeah, so I, I left to join the Pentecostal church with my student groups and later became a pastor in the Pentecostal church because it was like easier a process compared to the Anglican Church.
5 (6m 19s):
And what was your experience as a pastor in the Pentecostal church?
6 (6m 23s):
At the beginning it was great. If you can lie, if you can hide, you’re in a perfect place. I, I love the Christian religion. I still do up to this day because I’ve gone through a lot of persecution in my life. But I, I think that the Bible has become like a comforter in times of crisis in my life because there are scriptures I could go to that reminds me that there are people who have had great suffering compared to what I’m going through. There are people who lost their entire family and all their goods, all their animals, everything, and they still survive.
6 (7m 8s):
And there are people who face great challenge like David and they still like Joseph and they still end up being rewarded for being nce with the religion. So when I was in the Pentecostal church, I didn’t have any kind of like social life. ’cause I go to church on Sunday. I, I go to church as early as 5:30 AM I join in cleaning the church, I do bible study, I take a Bible study class, then I do worship. And after church I still end up cleaning the church. Then I leave around one.
6 (7m 48s):
So my entire Sunday I spend it from like 5:30 AM to one in the church. And when I come back home, I go back for like a bible group by 6:00 PM in the evening to 8:00 PM So all my community around me then were members of the church. So I felt very close relationship with members of the church and it was difficult to like deviate because if you deviates you’ll lose all the people you have because everything you have is tied to the church while is going good. It was great. I, I have friends, if I don’t have food in my home, they’ll prepare food and they would invite me to come and eat, like play games with people.
6 (8m 33s):
It was like one of the greatest experience of my life until, you know, I came out as gay and that was when it was difficult for me to be a member of the church as a gay person.
7 (8m 47s):
Yeah, I think your story, like that experience is one that so many LGBT LGBTQ people can relate to both, like looking for, you know, as a as as a, as a like safety, but also then it becomes a place of unsafety at the same time. So what was it that caused you to sort of risk it all by coming out as gay?
6 (9m 10s):
You know, I didn’t know that I would have the courage to come out as gay. My grandmother, when I was 11 years old, she used to take me to church and show all her friends. My grandmother was around 80 something years. She would show all her friends on Sunday, like older people to women. They would be like, oh, to meet my grandson, A that is going to become a pastor when he gets older. And you know, I’ll wear a, a tie and a pants and a tie and I’ll my, in my pocket I yes grandma, you know, like I have the favorite because I aspiring to be this person that is loved by my grandmother.
6 (9m 56s):
When I was growing older, my grandmother and I had this strong bond with like religion. We pray together. If she eats food, she’ll keep the, the a portion of the food for me. And if anybody comes to you like, no, you don’t pray with me, it definitely would take the food like that. So even losing that, the fear of losing that relationship with my grandmother was the most frighten thing for me as a person. Not even the backlash from the greater society. But when I was in college, about 19 years old, I tried to meet somebody on a gay app. There was no app, a website called Man, I, I think Manja.
6 (10m 42s):
So the guy was d he d that doesn’t show his face. So I, I didn’t know what was like deal. It was like, I don’t show my face, but if you want to meet, we can meet in a market square and we go to my place together. You know, I, I didn’t, I haven’t met gay people a lot then and everybody was like hiding. So I, if I wanted to like meet somebody, I would’ve to take direct. So we, I was in a market, so market in Nigeria is different. People are selling food, people are doing stuff, everything is happening.
6 (11m 22s):
So I was standing there and somebody honk, it’s like a Toyota blue car and wind down the passenger screen. I was like coming. So I entered, I knew about the guy. So we’re driving is a little bit older than me. I was like 19, it was like 33 and we drove into like a dead road. We just continued driving and we parked the car and he told me that, I told everybody that is in friend, you’re younger brother to my friend and you’re gonna school and I’m gonna give you stuff to take to school. That is the story you have to tell everybody.
6 (12m 3s):
I was like, no problem. We drove about five minutes and entered into a compound. So it was like a church. I was like, wow, you live in a church? It was like, yeah, I’m leaving with a, a friend upstairs of the church, like the, the vestry. So when we got into the vestry, I discovered that his picture was on the wall, the rest, a priest in the church, but I didn’t want to tell me because he felt like it will lead to him being outed. So I, I said, oh, you’re a priest. I was like, yeah, I’m practicing to become a priest.
6 (12m 43s):
You know, he wanted to touch me. I was like, don’t touch me like you’re lying to me and stuff like that. I slept in his place The next morning I woke up very early and went to the church. He was doing a communion mass in the morning, you know, I went back, took my stuff, he already dropped transportation money for me in the decks. It, instead of me to go to school, I went straight to my grandmother because I saw the kind of person I was gonna become, this kind of person that hide to sexuality. And the first person I would’ve to comment to was my grandmother. So I told her that I think I’m gay, I don’t have the language, but I think I sleep, I prefer to sleep with men than women.
6 (13m 24s):
And my grandmother was like, it’s okay. She was very old then. I dunno if she understand what I’m saying. She was like, it’s okay, I’ll screw. I like, it’s fine. So after telling my grandmother, I came back to school and I told some of my friends in school that, you know, I, I was having, I had a girlfriend then I told them that I’m pretending like I like this girl, I don’t like her, I’m going to break up this relationship. And they’re like, oh, this girl, two of you’re in love. I was like, we’re not in love. Everything I’ve been doing is pretty, but I didn’t come to them that I’m gay. Yeah, I just, my relationship. So it was that moment that I made a decision that I’m not going to hide who I’m, but I’m not going to be open about who I’m, but after I came out to my grandmother and to myself, I tried to meet another person on a gay dating app and it was a mob.
6 (14m 17s):
They pretended like they were gay, but like they, they mob four people, like they striped me naked, beat me up, took my money, went to the bank, took money from my atm. After that incident, I couldn’t argue who I’m anymore. A lot of people in the community, they already know that I was that guy that was beating, trying to sleep it another guy. So I just have to come out and say I’m gay.
5 (14m 44s):
And, and how has life been different for you since coming out
6 (14m 49s):
The church? First of I, I I, I used to be a pastor, they told me that no, I can’t be a pastor anymore. It sub too, it was like you can’t come to the church, we have to reconcile and all those things. And you know, I left the church and I hated my sexuality for about three years because you know, just so shame food that I went through that experience. But later on I moved to Abuja, the Federal Capital Territory in Nigeria and I found the underground gay community. So it’s like very interesting community. So people who fled different cities, they’ll come to Abuja.
6 (15m 31s):
Abuja is like DC Washington DC is a federal capital erritory. And in the evenings you, your friends would be like, oh we’re gonna a party. When you get to the party and you go like, there’s like regular party up on top, but underneath is like gay guys who brought their clothes, their wigs and everything and they change underneath. So it’s called the underground gay scene in Nigeria. It was then I found like a community, a group of people who are like openly gay with each other and life was really great because you know, I was like, I found a community.
6 (16m 12s):
But in 2013 the government of Nigeria passed a law called Marriage prohibition act, which criminalizes gay relationship by 14 years imprisonment activist, 10 years imprisonment, cohabitation of suspected gay men imprisonment, public imprisonment. So that safe evil in Abuja became like a, you know, in 2014 January we tried to do a that during like that. But somebody reported to the police and the police came and arrested everybody that were there. So there was just constant crackdown of any spaces where you could be gay in Nigeria.
6 (16m 57s):
But you know, in spite of that crackdown, there was a gay religious community in Abuja. So people come to this church in Abuja nearby straight people come to gay people come to, but the gay people coming to the church knows that majority of the guides there again. So that church was like a safe even for gay people especially where we started doing HIV and AIDS testing and providing access to medication for people. Because because of that law, most people are HIV as suspected to, so they couldn’t go to clinics.
6 (17m 38s):
But it’s that su that church community is where we can masque and we’re providing I testing C and that’s where people who test positive can get treatment access to condom and other forms of protection. Yeah. But my life quickly changed from the church boy to the anti anti kind of spaces like that because I had to, I had to be outspoken about things like this for other members of the community to pick point and say if is gonna that church, that means maybe that place might be safe for me to go.
6 (18m 22s):
But it wasn’t really a church, it was just a safe Yeah,
7 (18m 27s):
I know that now, right, that you are an act like a gay activist. And so I’m wondering can you, you’re, it sounds like you’re starting to touch upon that, but I would love for you to just share a little bit more about your activism and and your work.
6 (18m 42s):
Yeah, so as circumstances we have it, I continue doing activism in Nigeria for access to healthcare treatment for LGBTQ community members. And in 2016 I won an award by an organization called they advocate for micro vaccine for HIV positive people, people and my name and photo publish as a grassroots activist in Nigeria here in the US. So that to further in my own country, like a mob broke down my apartment and stuff happened. So I couldn’t live in my country anymore.
6 (19m 24s):
I had to flee. So I came to the US to seek asylum in 2016 and I was detained for about six months. After I was granted asylum, I became homeless. And it’s a situation many people face when they come to the us they experience a form of homelessness after they’re being released from the detention center. I started working first for an organization in New Jersey doing HIV testing and peer education. But I discovered that that wasn’t a big problem in the US as it was in Nigeria. So I created the first organization in New York City, a shelter for LGBTQ displaced people in 2018.
6 (20m 11s):
And my work surrounded providing access to housing for LGBTQ people are displaced in America and you don’t, when you do something that affects the population that you’re part of, people speak about you. So like other LGBTQ people speak about me in the community, that it created a space whereby I couldn’t come and this was where I was able to build my life. And I think media came in to do a media interview with me as a result of somebody we helped to became an MT in 20. And since then I’ve been using my platform to speak up about the issues LGBTQ displaced people face in America and the broader sense of what equality would mean for LGBTQ displaced people who find themselves in America.
6 (21m 3s):
And that is the work I’ve been doing for roughly four years now, is creating awareness on the issue of detention for LGBTQ identified people. Because we face an historic marginalization in our own country, we persecution to come to the US detention is a form of torture. And while I was at the detention center, one trans person from Honduras, female male to female, but because they couldn’t change their birth certificate in Honduras, they put them in a male detention center with me. And when they were released from the detention center, they came to stay in the shelter I created. So I, that was the first person we were advocating for why trans people should not be locked up in detention center.
6 (21m 51s):
And that advocacy has proven successful. DE detention center was locked up in New Jersey, housed about 400 people, but now’s housing less than 25 people. And the state of New Jersey have signed an agreement to close private prisons for detaining immigrant by 2026. So that these are some of the kind of advocacy I do is advocating to end detention of LGBTQ people coming to America to seek protection, creating favorable policies that will give people who are released from detention center access to housing. Recently I founded a new organization separate from the shelter I founded.
6 (22m 31s):
The shelter is still running, they have about nine staff. But I left the shelter because direct service was very difficult for me because I have that direct experience of being a displaced person. I created Refugee America, we do 3 1 1 service for LGBTQ displaced people. So if you arrive in Tijuana and you are detained and you’re released from the detention center, if you go to Refugee America website and write us that you’re currently at the border in Arizona or Texas, we can pay transportation for you to move to a city like Chicago, Denver, and New York and find LGBTQ supportive services to support you if you’re also in transition to find healthcare providers that can help.
6 (23m 17s):
And recently we started creating a guide for welcoming LGBTQ displaced people because you know, if you come to a new country and you have been marginalized, you might find it difficult to talk to a service provider. So if a service provider seek now on their websites that they’re inclusive of LGBTQ people with a flag or their pronouns are, you might begin to feel like you can open up and receive services, this sort of organization. So that’s the work I’m currently doing.
5 (23m 49s):
It’s amazing. Yeah, I’m I’m wondering if you have, I I’m sure that for some of our listeners who are in the US who are maybe even unaware that people are being detained, if, if someone wanted to find out if that’s happening in their state and how to organize against that, do you have any resources for where they should start that work?
6 (24m 17s):
Yeah, the, the detention center in almost all 50 states in America. So if you go to ww, freedom for immigrant org, freedom for Immigrant have a visual display of all the cities and states in America via detection centers are currently being located. And we are trying to end the mandatory detention across America because, you know, private prisons facilitate the detention of immigrants and the federal government have signed a bill to end the use of private prison for federal crimes, but they have not the use of private prisons for immigrants.
6 (25m 4s):
And one of the biggest group is called GO, they were formerly called Correction Corps of America. And you know, the funny thing is that the US is the highest detaining, they have the highest amount of detention of immigrants in the world and it costs about 201 each day to detain an immigrant. For the six months I was in detention center, that was about 40 something thousand. US there are alternatives to detention like per bracelet people could wear and bail. And that is the service Canada is currently using community services whereby community will sponsor an immigrant and if community sponsor an immigrant, five gay people say we’re gonna sponsor or our church is gonna sponsor an immigrant.
6 (25m 57s):
So we’re trying to get the US government to use alternatives to detention for immigrant. There’s an historic, there’s an historic trail that follows detention of immigrants is mostly black and brown people that have been detained in America. The first time detention was used in America, A Supreme Court judge said that this is unAmerican to detain people in America. But 1980 during Reagan administration, the Cuban and Asian migrants who were coming to America, they wanted to repel them from coming into, so they started the use of detention. Again, it’s not the Trump administration or the administration, almost Clinton, Obama, George Bush, they all use detention for immigrants.
6 (26m 49s):
And this is the 21st century with looking at bail reform for Americans. We should also be looking at what other forms of reform can be applicable to immigrants coming to seek protection in America, especially the people. I’ll tell you something that happened to a friend of mine when I came to the US in 2016, after I was detained, a friend of mine who was working in the same organization with me came in 2017, you know, it, it was locked up in the detention center in de in at planter. And he was HIV positive, you know, it took them two months to get him on his medication.
6 (27m 30s):
He almost died because his viral load increased and he brought his medication from Nigeria. They said he cannot take the medication that he has, do the tests in the detention center. And he told me that one day he had issue with his, they had to do cleaning, so they had to take him from the detention center to a nearby hospital. You won’t from the detention center to he got to the clinic, they chain into his to share why the dentist was trying to clean his teeth. It’s like so terrible. Like how they treat people who come to America to see protection.
6 (28m 11s):
I think that there’s a complicated relationship with like immigrants and like the rights of immigrant in America because Americans are like, why should we focus on the rights of immigrants when we too have our issue? There’s a trans legislation all across America, don’t say gay in Florida, but I think that if we really want to achieve equality in America, it has to be for everybody and not just one set. Because if Americans are treated differently from immigrant, that means we’re permiting LGBTQ people to be, to to be on the end of persecution.
6 (28m 54s):
Why we Americans are like, we’re safe not to be persecuted.
5 (28m 58s):
Yeah. Wrong. And historically all of these different oppressions and marginalizations are all connected and so we have to work for all of them at the same time, not just one or the other.
6 (29m 11s):
I, I think that it’s like surreal that Americans don’t think about outside America. If you are married as a gay person, you have gay rights in America, you and your husband cannot be transferred for work stuff to Nigeria because your marriage will not be accepted there. We can’t go Saudi Arabia, not that we’re gays and what is equality for us when we’re still restricted to be able to do things around the world. So if we’re gonna change what it means to be a free gay person in America, we have to also influence other parts of the world.
6 (29m 60s):
And this is one thing I want to say about being a religious person in America and also thinking about where your money goes to around the world. Homophobia in Africa is flawed by the west. There’s a dark money channel that moves from evangelical churches in America to Africa. The first anti-gay bill that was passed in Africa was in 2012 in Uganda. The bill was written by a white evangelical from America handed to a senate official in Uganda and sponsored the bill. And the bill was passed after Uganda passed their bill in 2012.
6 (30m 43s):
Nigeria passed their bill in 2013 and that has for anti LGBTQ eight across Africa, there are still evangelical churches that preach that being gay is bad and you know, the, the strong sense of homophobia in Africa is fought by Pentecost star evangelical Christians who come to preach that the west is already destroyed, don’t allow Africa to be destroyed.
7 (31m 13s):
Yeah. So if, if someone is listening and they’re like enraged by what they’re hearing, they’re also inspired by what they’re hearing. What is like the next action that you would tell someone to take to get involved and make a difference?
6 (31m 31s):
I think that we tend to think about it too big to show it’s like this is a systemic problem. There’s nothing I can do. When I came to America, I was expecting to be accepted by the gay community in America because from afar on Facebook, YouTube, I see gay people celebrating pride. I, I wanted to leave that true utopia of being a gay person. But when I came here in the gay community, I’m a refugee and in the refugee community I’m black in the black community, I’m African and Africans, I’m gay.
6 (32m 13s):
There is no integration or intersectionality between gay Americans and gay immigrants. There is this like large division of like we have HRC, we have glad we have Gleason, but they’re only focused on like gay American rights. I think that there need to be more intersectionality between gay Americans and gay immigrants who are coming here because when we come to this country, our one big dream is to be a part of that equality agenda. So I think that they need to be more inclusivity between gay Americans and gay immigrant.
6 (32m 57s):
That is one that reduced the division. Secondly, when I came to America after I was released from the detention center, a church group in New Jersey, they contributed two 40 for me to get a shelter at YMCA in new for two weeks. You know, they gave, there are gay people who are trying to support people here, but I think many gay people do not know that they’re gay immigrants locked up in detention center. And I was visited by this church group from Riverside, a straight lady about 80 something years old and a straight guy about seven something years old.
6 (33m 37s):
They were visiting me, they were writing me letters like pen. There’s so many gay people who have been historically marginalized who are in detection center that we gay Americans can write them letters to say that you are part of us, you’re welcome here and when you get outta this detention center you’ll be welcomed in America. You know, the first time I visited gay, it was like a shock for me. I’ve never visited gay. I was like, oh my God, you could do this. Like there so many immigrants who would love to be to their first day by America or you know, there’s so many people having isolation when they come to America that if you’re organizing something you can say, oh I’ll invite this set of immigrants to join me.
6 (34m 26s):
And that is what I try to do in New York City with my shelter. There’s so many gay people in New York from Wall Street to the financial sector, mostly the financial sector that because I was vocal, they’re like, oh, you’re my friend, I’ll invite you to my place. And when I get to their place, I’m like, you have a big space. Do you want to host an event? I lemme bring seven other immigrants to your place. And they’re like, do you think it’s safe? I’m like, okay, why do you think it’s safe for me and not the, so I think that we need to create a sense of belonging, safety and coming for people who are coming here and it be as lead to as helping a give person do their resume when they come to the us.
6 (35m 15s):
We recently launched the with 10th partnership for refugee, the TQ mentorship program for LBQ immigrants. So more 36 company sign up to reach from TD Bank to Deloitte and essential JP Morgan Chase, whereby they bring a few of their staff to mentor LGBTQ immigrant. There is no commitment to give them a job, but it’s just like, I’m meet you four times a year, talk about you. And recently we had a partnership with Facebook provided a training for LGBTQ people who wanna be digital ma marketers for them to be able immigrants who wanna be digital marketers.
6 (36m 2s):
And after the 12th training, some of them got employed by Facebook and other organizations. So I think it’s just more integration into the American society to create opportunity for not just immigrant, but for the LGBTQ community in America. We yeah, the immigrant community. Yeah,
7 (36m 22s):
A lot of our well centers are in the US but we also have folks listening from all around the world, including like some in Nigeria and Honduras and places like that. And so I’m wondering like what message do you have for folks outside of the US or Canada that might be in places that are less friendly to LBT rights than, I mean, the US is like, we have our own, we have our own problem. And so even saying that like us is also not always the most friendly, but to folks who might be listening from Nigeria or Uras or other, some of those places that you mentioned.
6 (36m 59s):
You know, when I was writing my book, that was the first thing I thought about is that when I was this 17 years old teenager struggling with my sexuality, the church was not a friendly place. I wish I had known somebody who was like me to just say to me that you are normal, you’re okay, you are not possessed. And literature kind of influenced culture too. Like podcasts influenced culture a lot and somebody is hearing my voice from somewhere and they’re relating to say that that person is telling my story, but it’s also giving me a sense of hope that I too can one day live in that reality of being a free gay person.
6 (37m 47s):
And I think that that is the only thing I can offer them at this point is that you’re seen and who you’re is completely normal. It’s not your faults, it’s just that society is built in a way that is meant to make us feel like we’re not normal.
7 (38m 5s):
Yeah. You mentioned your book. Can you share more about your book? What’s in it, where to get it?
6 (38m 13s):
Yeah, so I wrote a book called Asylum by Simon and Schuster. It’s gonna be out June 7th. You can get it in any bookstore across America. I I like to support independent bookstore, but some people outside America, there’s is gonna be available in English countries like Canada, uk, Australia, and even Nigeria and Kenya, Simon Schuster have different websites in different countries where you can get to the book. When I was writing the book, I was writing it for people like myself at the beginning.
6 (38m 54s):
I just wanted to have an influence towards someone growing up in a country whereby they’re gay, they’re Christian, they’re black, and they’re like, that is me. This is my struggle, this is my experience. But as I was continuing writing, I was thinking about it that now I live in America and many Americans are naive towards the fact that people living here when they get here, it’s not all rain, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. There is still a lot of struggle. So I wanted to leave on the pages, the experiences of someone who came here who was largely naive towards IIII, I was biased towards a lot of things and I was naive about a lot of things.
6 (39m 40s):
I didn’t know that Jewish people existed. I I, I read the, the Jewish people existed when I came to New York and so that were Jewish people in Brooklyn. If I call my mom and tell another, oh, I saw a Jewish person, she’d be like, oh, you lying. So it’s that kind of like naiveness I grew up in. It was very religious, just anything outside of Christian religion was bad. Were gonna go, you’re gonna destroyed. So I think my memoir is also an opportunity for me to see how much I have grown as a person and how much we all grow as a person each day. And to give hope to people that despite the fact that things are difficult right now, I don’t imagine if I can be a gay person in like 90, 55 or if I could be out to be myself in like 90, 80 whereby I’ll be sacked for my job, for being gay.
6 (40m 39s):
And it was those people who inspired us right now to be activists, to be who we’re, to be free and to be inspired to do something that will impact another generation. And it’s not left alone to us to leave for ourself. It’s left alone for us to leave for ourself, also for another generation to come in and reap the benefit of what we’re fought for. Like the way we’re reaping the benefit of what other people fought for. They lost their job, they lost their livelihood, they died in war. So that we can say that we’re gay, we’re bisexual and transgender and love is love and rainbow and everything.
7 (41m 19s):
Thank you for all of that. We’ll put links to your book and your website, your social media in the show notes of this episode of the podcast, that folks can contact you easily and find the, the find
5 (41m 33s):
The book if they wanna. Before we go, is there anything else that you wanna share?
6 (41m 40s):
Nothing really Recently, you know, the Ukrainian crisis brought a lot of limelight into the plight of refugees globally. And a lot of people of fates have been saying like, oh, this crisis is bad. It’s like we have to do everything we can to support the Ukrainian people, you know, but I’m very shocked, I’m very shocked that it happened in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in mamma, and people were not that because the US population and their empathy for immigrants is geared towards quote unquote a white institution.
6 (42m 25s):
So I think that those thing I would leave everybody with is including myself, is that we have to constantly check our biases when issues are happening around the world and say that what do I, what am I missing or what is not represented in the table? And how can we be more inclusive in terms of like creating a better world for everybody and not just a certain group of people.
5 (42m 52s):
One question that we like to end with all of our guests is to ask what is something that’s bringing you joy lately?
6 (43m 1s):
If you look behind me, I just got my diploma and today I got my commencement gown. I just completed my master’s from NYU School of Business and May 18th I’ll be doing my commencement. So it’s, I can be able to go to school and be myself in this country every day. It’s like a blessing.
5 (43m 26s):
I see you rocking your sweatshirt. Congratulations. I recognize them.
6 (43m 35s):
Yeah, the violence. Yeah. I say I’m just like NYU Journal. I love it. I have in my office table, you know, it’s cost me a lot of money to do the program, A lot of money. I could be their house with it. So, you know, that’s what alumni does to you, is that they sell you the promise. But I think that I, I, I’m just grateful that I’m able to live in a country whereby I can achieve my dream every day.
5 (44m 3s):
Thank you so much for, for being here and for sharing your story. It’s just so lovely to, to hear and to get more involved in, in the things that you’re talking about. So thank you for being here.
6 (44m 16s):
Thank you very much. Awesome,
5 (44m 17s):
Thanks.
8 (44m 19s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we [email protected], which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters.
5 (44m 28s):
To dive into more of the action, visit [email protected].
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44 min
October 19, 2025Celebrating Jewish Empowerment and Teaching the Masses with Milli Not So Vanilli
For this interview, we are excited to talk with Millie, more well known as Milli Not So Vanilli on social media. She is a 34-year-old Jewish mother and “accidental” TikTok creator. We learn how her grandmother has inspired her to speak out and how she is her greatest source of inspiration; her grandmother had been a Holocaust survivor and her grandfather was a victim of McCarthyism. We discuss how important it is for Christians to learn about their own history, to learn about Jewish history, and why this will help end prevalent misconceptions about Judaism and Jews. She also explains how anti-Semitism is accepted and widespread throughout Christian belief teachings and what Christians can do to unlearn and reframe these damaging beliefs in order to be a good ally for Jews. Millie reminds us how important and relevant this work is today and what you can do now to be a Christian without spreading anti-Semitic rhetoric.
Millie celebrates Jewish diversity and advocates for a more inclusive and accepting Jewish community. She believes in Jewish empowerment through knowledge and awareness of Jewish history and believes a better understanding of Jewish history and who Jews are as a people is the best way to fight antisemitism.
Learn more about Millie at:
IG: https://www.instagram.com/milli_not_so_vanilli/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@milli_not_so_vanilli
https://linktr.ee/milli_not_so_vanilli
Links from the episode:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/
https://www.rabbisandralawson.com/

Resources:
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community
If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.
2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from
1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how
2 (23s):
Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.
1 (33s):
Sanctuary Collective is an online community of LGBQ, Christians and straight cisgender supporters from all over the world.
2 (39s):
We encourage one another, laugh together, form friendships and learn too.
1 (43s):
When you join the community, you get access to workshops, courses, and quarterly worship experiences,
2 (48s):
But more than that, you get access to a network of people who get it and who will journey with you. To find out more, go to queer theology.com/community.
1 (57s):
I am so excited about our guest today, Millie, who on TikTok is Millie? Not so. Vanilli is, I think the TikTok who trained the TikTok algorithm into sending me in deep, deep, deep into the world of Jewish TikTok. And I am so thankful for her. I have learned so much from her. Many, many videos about Judaism and antisemitism on her TikTok and on her Instagram, and we had a really beautiful conversation with her. Millie is a 34-year-old Jewish mother and accidental TikTok creator. Her grandparents are her greatest source of inspiration. Her grandmother, having been a Holocaust survivor and her grandfather, a victim of McCarthyism.
1 (1m 41s):
Millie, celebrates Jewish diversity and advocates for a more inclusive and accepting Jewish community. She believes in Jewish empowerment through knowledge and awareness of Jewish history and believes a better understanding of Jewish history and who Jews are as a people is the best way to fight antisemitism. Pako up. You are in for a real Treats today. Hello, Millie, and thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I’m really excited to dive into your backgrounds and your experiences as a creator on TikTok.
3 (2m 14s):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
1 (2m 16s):
You’re welcome. So just to get started, for obviously the folks at home who don’t maybe know much about you, can you share just a little bit about your sort of faith and cultural experiences sort of growing up and how that is or is not, or shaped sort of your life and who you are today?
3 (2m 41s):
Well, growing up I attended, you know, secular schools always. And so there was always just a handful of Jews in the schools that I went to. And it definitely experiencing, I think a lot of Jews who grow up gonna Hebrew school, they have such a different experience because the going to school with Christian kids and kids that aren’t Jewish, you immediately start experiencing anti-Semitism and you immediately start hearing anti-Semitic rhetoric.
3 (3m 34s):
So I think I grew up very aware that I was different and I always felt different when, you know, we did go to Hebrew school, which was just on the weekend, and you know, we did go to our, our temple, our reform temple, and we did go to Jewish summer camp. Me and my sister, and I definitely was very aware of how, how different I felt in different spaces as a Jew. And I was always aware of my family history and the, you know, my grandmother, my Oma being a Holocaust survivor.
3 (4m 25s):
I don’t remember the first time I start started hearing about this. I don’t remember the first time I started hearing about what my grandfather, my OPA went through being discriminated against, you know, for being Jewish. It just was always something that was in my awareness and these things definitely shaped who I am today. And growing up, growing up, growing up, being aware that everyone hates you or in the very least doesn’t understand you, I think is really, it’s, it’s a unique experience and it gives you a different sense of, of pride in who you are and where you come from.
1 (5m 17s):
You know, it’s, it’s funny you talk about just like growing up, going to secular school and it’s, I’m just like struck at how like people who create online, like we only see or we only reveal like parts of ourselves, right? And so like as a sort of a Jewish creator on TikTok, all, most all a lot of your content is about sort of Judaism and your experiences of, of your faith and your culture and of course antisemitism and discrimination, but I would’ve, you know, never known that you grew up going to a secular school. And so how did you come into being a, I don’t know, TikTok making content on, on, on TikTok
3 (6m 3s):
Completely by accident? I had no idea what TikTok even was. When I got on TikTok, I had seen other people posting their TikTok videos onto Instagram, which I was super late to Instagram. Like I’m not a technology person. I was, I was late to Facebook. So the fact that I got on TikTok when it was even, I mean, I, I saw someone posting like transformation videos and so I thought it was an app where you could make cool little videos and like edit them.
3 (6m 46s):
And I was like, I wanna try that. And I got on TikTok and you know, at first all I was seeing was your typical teenager and a lot of mom content, which I actually can’t stand. And I just was messing around and I had seen that there, I had seen that there were people who made posts just talking and I was like, I love to talk, I can do this, I can talk. I had just gotten, yeah, so I had just gotten onto TikTok shortly before my Oma was kind of on her way out of this world and nobody was following me.
3 (7m 38s):
Like nobody, it was like a few random people seeing my stuff and I was just talking about random stuff. I was like making random posts. I was like, I, I like Poshmark better, I have more followers there. And then my Oma passed away and I was so moved by some of the things that she was saying in her last days of life and knowing what she had gone through, the fact that she was talking about her life only in good terms, only how, how beautiful it was.
3 (8m 23s):
And I just wanted to make a post and I was, whoever’s gonna see this is gonna see this and if it helps anybody know that no matter what they’re going through, they can come out the other side and have a great life then that, I’m just gonna say this. And so I, I got, I don’t know what I thought, I thought it was like so many people and it was maybe a thousand people saw this post and I decided TikTok was the way, I had always known that some way, somehow when my Oma passed away, I, I just wanted to share her story and that I felt I had this responsibility to share her story and carry on her legacy in the last few years of her life.
3 (9m 13s):
I, you know, she was in her nineties, I became very aware that she was not gonna be around forever and to make sure that her story was still out there, that it was not forgotten it, you know, it just felt like a responsibility because the idea that people are gonna forget was terrifying to me. The idea that these people are not gonna be around forever to share their own stories was terrifying. And so I just started sharing her story and I started getting followers and it was really cathartic and healing and I, I started getting followers and at some point I was like, I have more to say than just talk about my Oma and my own family history.
3 (10m 12s):
I’ve always had a lot to say, you know, before TikTok I was all caps typing on Facebook, yelling at the people I went to high school with about everything under the sun, including antisemitism. So, you know, I I was like, I’m just gonna start saying what I have to say here on TikTok. And I had gained somewhat of a following maybe 20,000 followers at this point, and people started having questions and people started looking at me as a Jewish voice and I just kept talking.
3 (10m 52s):
And it was interesting because initially I really thought I had followers be because of Oma. And the more I continued just speaking my truth and my truth as inspired by Oma who always spoke her truth, I kept getting more followers. And so, you know, at this point I I I’m just, I know what I’m doing, but I’m here and people are listening.
1 (11m 26s):
Yeah. You know, I I think that Shay and I sometimes feel this tension of like telling the stories that like, we wanna tell ’cause are meaningful to us versus like having conversations like with and to other queer people versus like being aware that straight people are listening in and then like, why do we have to like, like doing the work of educating straight people and I’m, you know, I I know that you’re audience, you have like a mixed audience of, of Jewish folks and non-Jewish folks. And so like how, how has it been for you sort of balancing like having conversations you wanna have about things that are important to you versus like educating it’s, you know, antisemitic people or, or, or educating people who want to do better but just like aren’t Jewish, you know?
3 (12m 19s):
Yeah, it’s definitely, it’s definitely a balance because I do have a lot of Jewish followers and I get a lot of feedback from them. Thank you for saying the things that I couldn’t put into words. And I, I feel like part of being empowered as a Jew is knowing Jewish history and there’s a lot of Jews that they don’t know a lot of this stuff that I’m talking about. And I feel it’s important to empower them in, in, in speaking, you know, their own truth as Jews. And I feel like it’s important to empower them with the knowledge of our history as Jews.
3 (13m 6s):
And I feel like if I can say things that they don’t know how to put into words or you know, they don’t feel comfortable saying and they can share my videos or pass them along and that’s helpful to them, that’s great. But I do also have a huge following of people that wanna be better allies and I have a huge following of deconstructing Christians. And so it’s definitely a balance of creating content for myself because I still need to sometimes find enjoyment in this even though it’s, it’s definitely labor, creating content for other Jews and actually educating the people that need to be educated because there’s so many people that I hear from that are like, wow, I never thought as a deconstructing Christian, I never thought about this this way or so many people, I didn’t realize that anti antisemitism was so prevalent.
3 (14m 15s):
And so it’s, it’s finding a balance and it’s also the balance in doing all of those things and self care. But for the most part I just say what I think is important, I just say what I’m thinking about, what’s been weighing heavy on me or what I’ve been feeling excited about and I just go for it and it’s gonna resonate with somebody. But it’s definitely interesting, you know, the feedback that I get from various groups of people and I, you know, my target audience is not just Jews or not just, you know, gu not just non-Jew.
3 (15m 9s):
It’s kind of trying to make it for everybody that either wants to learn or wants to feel validated.
1 (15m 19s):
Yeah, it’s a really beautiful space that you cultivated and like, I mean obviously there’s bullshit in the comments, but also there’s like some really, there’s some really wonderful stuff that goes on in the comments as well.
3 (15m 30s):
Yeah.
1 (15m 31s):
I’m wondering, so you know, our audience is primarily Christian, some folks who are, you know, solidly Christian, some folks are in that, you know, deconstructing Christianity phase of their knees, others who are considering other religions. And I’m wondering, you know, wonder know for folks who are not Jewish who want to like sort of like do a better job of learning about Judaism or sort of ridding their Christianity from antisemitism or just sort of like being better allies. Do you have any sort of advice on, on what folks could do to, for like work in solidarity with, with Jewish folks better?
3 (16m 12s):
I mean the main thing, the main thing is listen, listen to Jews. And I think, so what I’ve really been thinking about, because someone recently asked me, is there a way to be Christian and not be anti-Semitic? And I think there is, but I think it takes a lot of work and it a lot of self-awareness. And I think my intention, you know, I, I talk a lot about the harm Christianity has done to Jews throughout history and it’s never my intention to make people hate Christianity or wanna leave Christianity.
3 (17m 7s):
It’s more useful to have allies within the Christian community than it’s to have allies outside of the Christian community. I don’t want there to be no Christianity. I want Christianity and Christian to do better. And that starts with learning your own history, learning the history of Christianity and how it relates to Judaism and listening to Jews about how we interpret the Torah, what we believe and what what we practice versus what they’ve been told within the church, what they’ve been told by other Christians about Judaism.
3 (17m 57s):
Because that’s the biggest problem is so many Christians have been taught so much about Judaism and it’s wrong, it’s all wrong. And they’ve been, they’ve been not taught about their own history as Christians.
2 (18m 15s):
Yeah, I was, I was really struck by what you said earlier about, you know, both how much you were aware of and entrenched in your own history, but also about how important that is for you to, to have those conversations with folks you who dunno their own history. And I was just really thinking and so struck by how many folks I know don’t know anything about Christian history, the history of how we got certain theologies, right? The, the history of Judaism, like all of that and how detrimental that is to not only our understanding of our own faith, but like of being of the ability to be in solidarity with other people because we don’t even know what our own story has been.
2 (19m 3s):
And so I I find so much resonance in, in what you’ve said there about, about knowing your history and how important that is.
3 (19m 11s):
Well, yeah, and that’s, you know, one of the huge fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity from early on we start, I mean it’s not, and people don’t understand, like Judaism is, is not just a religion and we’re not just gonna Hebrew school to learn about what we’re supposed to believe in terms of God and all of these things. We’re going to Hebrew school to learn about our culture and a lot of that is our history. And we do learn about antisemitism, we start getting taught about this very young, and the history is such a, a integral part of our education as Jews.
3 (20m 0s):
And that goes hand in hand with the antisemitism that we start to experience very early on as Jews. I started getting told by my Christian peers in maybe second, third grade that I was going to help because I was Jewish. And, and so I started becoming aware of their learn. They’re learning this about, they’re learning this about Jewish Jews and Judaism and I’m learning something totally different. And, and while Jews are getting taught about their history and their culture, Christians are getting taught about a belief system.
3 (20m 47s):
And it’s a belief system that has come from what they believe is Judaism, but the, but the beliefs are so different and so, and they’re not, they’re not taught about their own history where history is such an important part of our Jewish education. History is not a part of the Christian education from my perspective and from what I’ve experienced with Christians, they are taught what’s in their Bible and they are taught what they should believe in in terms of how a higher power and, and apart from that, there’s, there’s, that’s just it.
3 (21m 34s):
And they’re taught that, you know, Jews are, we’ve rejected the Messiah and we’re wrong. And they don’t, they don’t get taught about how Christianity has tried to reconcile those differences. They don’t get taught about the actual physical actions that have taken place because the beliefs are, are different. And, and, and those, you know, differences and in that history, a lot of pain has been caused and trauma and you know, then they wanna come, you know, to us and, and save us.
3 (22m 22s):
And it’s so, and they have no idea and they have no idea why we react, react the way that we do.
1 (22m 31s):
Yeah. Oh man, what I learned from my, like evangelical church growing up about like what Judaism is both like first century Judaism and modern Judaism is just like, I mean, so completely wrong compared to what I, you know, like hearing from my friends who are Jewish directly or in school, like from my professors who are, who are Jewish and it’s just like, oh, they was just like, it’s just like, there’s just like so many inaccuracies. It’s like a whole other just like, I don’t know, like make believe people that then, you know, Christianity uses to just sort of demonize. And so I’m wondering for you, like what are some of the most meaningful parts of your, your Judaism, whether that’s like a part of the, the faith component or the cultural component or how those, you know, are intertwined?
3 (23m 25s):
I mean, for me, what’s always re resonated with me is we place more emphasis on our actions than our beliefs. You know, it’s about doing the mitzvahs and it’s about what we do not versus what what we believe. And so that leaves so much room for us to question and contemplate and be individuals and, and we continue to participate in Judaism because we are Jews.
3 (24m 11s):
Like it’s who we’re, and it’s, and it’s, it’s what, so Rabbi Sandra, who is the rabbi that I stand girl over, what, what she has said repeatedly is that we were a people,
1 (24m 30s):
Oh my god, me too. She left a comment on one of my tiktoks the other day and I died,
3 (24m 34s):
Okay. When Rabbi Sandra and I became mutuals, I was like, this is all the validation I’ve ever needed in my entire life. But what she’s repeatedly said,
1 (24m 46s):
What
3 (24m 46s):
She’s repeatedly said, which it resonates with me so much and it’s just so true, is that we were a people and then Christianity came along and turned us into a religion. And that is so true. And so for me, it’s not like I’m doing this because this is what I believe I’m doing this because this is who I’m as a person and, and it’s, it it nurtures my soul. And, and so it’s like it Judaism reminds me to live in, in the moment because in terms of death, we don’t have the answers. Like Judaism is notoriously vague when it comes to the afterlife.
3 (25m 27s):
And it’s not that we don’t believe in it, but it’s very vague and we are told kind of like, eh, don’t worry about it. And as someone who is constantly in existential crisis mode and has an immense fear of death, It reminds me, Sam, yeah, it reminds me to just be here now to like live in the moment. It’s like, let’s focus on the actions, let’s focus on connecting to my ancestors and let’s focus on what I’m doing right now. Let’s be here now. And I love that about Judaism and then just the, the, so the social justice like aspect where, where literally taught Tik, it’s our job to heal the world.
3 (26m 23s):
And and that’s what, you know, so many people don’t understand. There’s this misconceptions about what the chosen people means. It’s like, no, we’re not chosen to be God’s favorite. We’re not chosen to get into doesn’t. And and I, and I take it very seriously and you know, the laws that were given to us, they’re impossible. They’re impossible for any one person to, to adhere to all of, and that’s not even the point.
3 (27m 4s):
But, you know, I think a lot of Christians look at a lot of this stuff as a burden because they’re seeing it through a Christian lens. But really it’s a gift because again, back to what Rabbi Sandra says, we are a people and, and we are a nation and we needed, you know, to, as a nation of people, we needed to figure out how to do life. And they are guidelines how to do life and how and above anything else to, to live a, a just and meaningful life that is not causing harm to others and not causing harm to the planet.
3 (27m 47s):
And those are things, and of course I, you know, speak from a reform perspective, but I’ve spoken to conservative and orthodox Jews who feel the same way. But yeah, those are the things that to me are the most meaningful about Judaism and resonate with me the most. And when I, you know, and I’m not perfect and I practice my own brand of Judaism, but when I participate in Judaism and Jewish ritual and I’m around other Jews, I literally feel the strength of my ancestors. And I love that.
4 (28m 24s):
That’s beautiful.
1 (28m 26s):
I love that so much. So a few weeks ago, Shane and I were interviewed on this podcast about evangelicalism and the host asked us like, do you think evangelicalism, like is worth saving, can be saved? Like is there any good that could come outta that? And Shea and I were like, no, it’s gotta go. And so, you know, I think, I think that your, I think that your TikTok video about like, is it possible to be Christian and not anti-Semitic? I think it was one of the first ones that I saw about you. And I remember texting Shane being like, oh my God, what if we have to burn it all down? I think we might have, I think we might. So, so the, I mean, it’s very gracious of you to say, no, I don’t think Christianity has to cease existing, but you, like you could, this is a safe space for you to say that.
1 (29m 11s):
And I would, I would take that with conviction, but you know, since you did say, well, yes, but it’s very, very, very difficult to do that. Like what would your advice be to Christians who are like, oh fuck, like my religion, like, has historically and in present day continues to be antisemitic, kind of like just by it existing. And so like what, what if anything can we do to make it not so,
3 (29m 41s):
So much of Christianity that in the way that it’s practiced and preached on, you know, globally and wide scale, ha has to get reframed and reworked it. It can’t be that Jesus came to save everybody and now there’s no longer a need for Judaism. It has to be that the Jewish people have their own, you know, covenant with God and their own agreement. And that is separate from Christianity. There just needs to be separation.
3 (30m 22s):
It has to stop being supersessionism. It has to stop being, this is a continuation. It has to stop being this idea that Jewish people have rejected our Messiah. And, and there has to be a respect of our, our text and how we read them and how, you know, and what we believe. Because as long as Christians believe that Jews are, you know, doomed to the fiery pits of hell, we’re gonna have a problem. And I think that is the biggest thing because people get really hateful about it.
3 (31m 10s):
And when you start trying to have these conversations with Christians, they get very defensive and they really, really cannot let go of the idea that it’s, it’s okay, it’s okay that I don’t believe in Jesus. You don’t have to save me and I’m not going to hell. Like that’s just it. This idea that you have to believe one way or else go to be damned. It’s like, yeah, you know, and I don’t know, I don’t know how, it’s a lot of unlearning and I’ve seen pastor pastors and preachers on TikTok who, who are, who are doing it, who are saying, well, let’s reframe this Bible passage.
3 (32m 5s):
Let’s like reframe this. And, you know, and, and that’s just what needs to happen on a, on a wide scale. It’s, you know, and accepting that if we say that our Torah doesn’t say what you are telling us, it says, then it, then it doesn’t say that like, you know, just calling it out, just calling it out and just listening to Jewish voices and listening and accepting and being open-minded. It’s, and again, learning, learning, learning your own history, learning Jewish history and learning Christian history.
2 (32m 44s):
As someone who’s a huge book nerd, I’m wondering if you have any recommends for someone who wants to understand better how to read the Torah.
3 (32m 56s):
Yeah, listen to rabbis. There are find, you know, Christians will often be like, but it says right here in the Bible. And it’s like, that’s not what it says in the Torah. And they’re convinced it’s the same thing. It’s not the same thing. And get, get Jewish translations and read the Jewish translations. My, my Hebrew learning is a really great website. They have the weekly Torah portions and they have the translations and they have like, like, I don’t know, almost cliff notes explanations and they’re, they’re Jewish explanations and their Jewish cliff notes and their Jewish summaries and it, yeah, listen to rabbis and read Jewish translations and yeah, definitely my Jewish learning do com is really, really great website if anybody wants to get information on what, what Jews believe the says and what, what Jewish interpretations are, I think that’s really helpful.
3 (34m 17s):
I’ve had a lot of people ask questions and I’ve just referred them there and they’ve come back to me and been like, oh my gosh, I really had no idea. I just, you know, the Christian Bible says this and like, yeah, I didn’t even know the Christian Bibles like that.
1 (34m 38s):
Yeah. I would also add, like, go follow you on TikTok at Milli, not so Vanilli. And you know, I think like, and you also, like, you are constantly like stitching to people or dueting the people and you know, I think like listeners can sort of like use you as an entryway into all sort of just like amazing, diverse, you know, Jewish voices. It’s not like, like you were saying, it’s not just one person, but we all have different opinions and different perspective on stuff. And I think like not just being like, oh, well I read one book, I yeah, I talked to one person.
3 (35m 14s):
Well, yeah, that’s the other thing is you have to listen to many Jewish voices because part of our culture and part of our religion is, you know, critic critical thinking and arguing, like literally. And you know, there’s a saying two Jews, three opinions, and that’s for a reason and none of us agree on anything. And so you have to get a, a broad perspective when it comes to the religion, definitely listen to rabbis like above all else, if a rabbi you know is saying something that doesn’t sit right with you, seek out another rabbi, you know, and then get a bigger picture and then piece it together.
3 (36m 2s):
If there is something that you find Jew, after Jew, after Jew is saying the same thing, listen to that. If you find Jew after Jew after Jew and then you find the one Jew saying something, that’s where then you use your critical thinking skills, you know, and try to figure that out for yourself. So yeah, it’s, it’s getting a wide variety of opinions and a and a and a bigger picture and understanding, you know, Jews are not a monolith and, and you know, using your brain about that.
1 (36m 45s):
So I, I know that like TikTok can really be like sapo of grossness sometimes, but like, what have you really enjoyed about your experience being on TikTok and sort of being a creator there?
3 (37m 2s):
I love the Jewish community. I’ve made so many friends, especially in this pandemic, being able to have a Jewish community. It’s so important. I feel like as Jews we are lost without each other. And so being able to still have a community while in quarantine, being able to find people that really, really do wanna do better and the intersectionality, there’s the, the diversity of Jewish identities can, can really, really be seen on TikTok. And I love that.
3 (37m 42s):
I love that I have become friends with like, a lot of, not just Christians but Christian leaders, a lot of ministers and pastors and preachers who are really, really doing the work. And it gives me a lot of hope and a lot of faith and it makes me feel a little bit less doomed. And it’s been really rewarding seeing the people who it clicks for. I say something and they are like, I’ve never thought of that. I’m so sorry. I’ve been, you know, I’ve had my head up my ass my entire life and I think I need to remove it now.
3 (38m 28s):
And that’s, that’s been really, that’s been a really positive experience being that I’m not trying to make white supremacists and Nazis like me. It’s the people that had no idea that they had these unconscious anti-Semitic biases. And, and a lot of people are really unpacking that, and it’s because of TikTok, which is insane.
1 (38m 56s):
Yeah, I feel like I’ve, you know, you know, had Jewish friends growing up and studied religion in college, so like with rabbis and do this work. And I still, even, even with all of that, you and the other creators on TikTok are still like blowing my mind on a daily and weekly basis. So, so thank you for the work that you put in.
3 (39m 16s):
Yeah. Thank you.
1 (39m 18s):
And then one of the questions that we’ve kind of been asking all of our guests is like, separate from your work or outside of your work, what’s something that’s been bringing you joy lately?
3 (39m 30s):
Hmm. Well, I mean, I, it’s winter now. I do have a little kind of greenhouse set up in my yard and it’s too cold for a lot of stuff, but I, I can do root vegetables and greens and so I’ve, I’ve got my carrots and beets are, are going strong and I’ve got some kale and some arugula, and I’m already like, ready for spring. I’m ready to hit the ground running. And that’s like the, I don’t know what else, because otherwise I’m trapped in my house with my kids and I, I love them, but this, this pandemic’s been rough and being outside and have, having something to nurture and grow that doesn’t yell at me.
3 (40m 26s):
It’s really nice.
1 (40m 30s):
I love it. Well, thank you again for being here and if folks want to like connect more with you, obviously, like if there’s your TikTok, is there anywhere else that you would like to sort of point folks to, to learn more about what you’re up to or stay connected with you?
3 (40m 46s):
Yeah, I have my TikTok and then I have my Instagram of the same name, so Millie, so same name on TikTok as on Instagram. And I can receive messages on Instagram and I’m happy to respond. Sometimes it takes a while because I’m tired, but you know, that’s a great place if anyone has any questions or just wants to let me know something. Yeah, my, my Instagram is there and my dms are open.
1 (41m 26s):
Awesome. Well thank you so much again. This has been so great. Thank you. We are so excited to finally have some merch for you. We put together an online [email protected] that is full of fabulous products to help you show off the pride that you have in your faith, in your sexuality, in your gender, in being an ally. And not only will you look fabulous doing it, but you will also help to support this podcast and keep it all in the air. You can go to store dot queer theology.com to check out all of the new merch and use promo code podcast to get 10% off your first order.
1 (42m 8s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we [email protected], which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters.
2 (42m 17s):
To dive into more of the action, visit [email protected]. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.
1 (42m 25s):
We’ll see you next week.
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43 min
October 12, 2025God is a Black Woman with Dr. Christena Cleveland
We’re revisiting our interview episode with the remarkable Dr. Christena Cleveland. Dr. Cleveland is an author, activist and a founder and director of the Center for Justice + Renewal as well as its sister organization, Sacred Folk. Tune in as Fr. Shay talks with Dr. Cleveland about her journey to find the Black Madonna and the Sacred Feminine, what that means for her view of the white, male god and her evangelical upbringing, and how wisdom and the Sacred Divine can be found within ourselves.
Grab a copy of her book: God Is a Black Woman
Liberating the Mind Body course
Dr. Cleveland Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cscleve
Website: https://www.christenacleveland.com/
https://www.justiceandrenewal.org/

Resources:
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. I’m so, so, so excited. Dr. Christina Cleveland PhD is a social psychologist, public theologian, author and activist. She’s the founder and director of the Center for Justice and Renewal, as well as its sister organization, sacred Folk, which creates resources to stimulate people’s spiritual imaginations and support their journeys toward liberation.
(50s):
An award-winning researcher and, and former professor at Duke University’s Divinity School. Christina lives in Boston, Massachusetts. Today I’m this episode Father Shea talks with her about her extensive work as well as her book, God as a Black woman looking at her pilgrimages to visit black Madonna’s. And so much insight in this one. I cannot wait for you to, to hear it. Enjoy. Well, we’ve already read your fancy bio, but I would love to start by asking, like if we were at a cocktail party, a fun cocktail party, and someone asked you to introduce yourself and what you do, how do you, how do you explain yourself and your work?
(1m 33s):
I usually tell people that I’m an artist who stimulates spiritual imaginations, and I’m someone that curates and gathers adventurous people who wanna go beyond what they think they know about spirituality. Hmm. That’s amazing. I love that. I, I am obsessed with your book. It’s so, so, so good. And one of the things that I, I was really struck by is like, you write so beautifully about finding God in the particularity of your and her experience as a black woman. And then you also open that up to sharing how finding that is not just for black women.
(2m 17s):
And I, and I think so often people assume that theologies from the particulars are just for people who share those particulars. And I wonder if you can start out by sharing a little bit more about why it matters that people who aren’t from those particulars learn from seeing God in this way. Hmm. Well, I can tell you why it’s been so important for me to learn from theological viewpoints that are really different from my own. I don’t think I could have gone on my journey, to be honest, without Palestinian liberation theology about seven or eight years ago when I was first getting connected to liberation theology.
(2m 59s):
Of course, I was reading the Black Liberation theologians, both male and female and non-binary. But it was so powerful for me to hear, like read Nama Te, who was talking about Samson as the first suicide bomber. And just that just stimulated my, my, my imagination beyond my experience and just really gave me license to go beyond my experience and to find God outside of my experience. And for, and that that particular example, you know, to see the humanity and the divinity and the sacredness of suicide bombers like that. I mean, that’s why we read theologies outside of our background, is so that we can see the sacredness in other people and, and start to fight for that sacredness too, and, and not just have the people from that background be fighting for that sacredness.
(3m 55s):
So I would say that it’s been a huge part of my journey to be nourished by theologies outside of my experience. But also, I mean, I think the Black Madonna, which so much of my spirituality is centered around these days, she’s so, she’s so expansive. You know, in my book I pit her against white male God, who is kind of like, you know, I talk about his teeny tiny circle, his teeny tiny terrifying circle of acceptability, right? It’s like a pinpoint, like hardly anybody gets to be part of it. He’s like the king of exclusivity and she’s like the queen of inclusivity. But I feel like that language is not ideal.
(4m 36s):
’cause inclusivity is so weak, weakened, but I think she’s like the queen of equity, like the people that have been cast aside, she says, be front and center, very similar to Jesus who said, in the first shall be last and the last, she’ll be first. But people don’t really take that seriously in general, don’t really take that seriously. But I think if we get behind her, her, her real movement of literally taking the first and putting them at the foot at the table and literally taking the last and putting at the, at the foot, at the front, the head, then anyone who’s not black, who has privilege, at least in western society for being non-black, will have to start to see that blackness is part of the sacredness of, and the, the, I love the way James s says, he says, blackness is the image of God in black people, right?
(5m 35s):
And so if we’re starting to read like these theologies out, like so a non-black person reading the, reading my book, or reading a, a black liberation theologian or a womanist can start to see that, that image of God in the world, in the form of blackness, and that’s healing to everyone who’s been poisoned by anti-blackness, black people, white people, Asian, whatever race you are, we’ve been poisoned. And it’s so healing and beautiful and, and it’s shocking. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. You this, you have this amazing quote where you say, regardless of our racial and gender identity is the liberating sacred black feminine, personally invites each of us to examine which God we have been implicitly taught to worship, and how that God has shaped us a God who is exclusively white and male, or even predominantly white and male is never going to be safe because he cannot affirm the sacredness of non-white and non-male people.
(6m 34s):
And I just, I, I think that’s, that’s such an important thing for people to hear, and I think it’s probably also shocking for some people to hear. I’m, I’m wondering how that quote in particular has resonated with folks and, and how you, how you got to that, that place. I know that that’s a really big question and your book is all about that journey, but like Yeah. For folks that, you know, to entice them to read the book. Yeah. You know, I think, I think a lot of people struggle with that idea. I, I would affirm what you’re saying. I think we have been, many of us have been discipled to think that spirituality should be easy and comfortable and feel good.
(7m 23s):
I remember reading books when I was like, back in the evangelical world, you know, growing up like, you know, go on a coffee date with Jesus or something like that. You know, just like kind of snugly cute image, which is it, which was interesting because the Jesus that was being presented to me was actually quite scary and not snugly and warm, but there was this, there was also this, this other flavor of, I would say, white patriarchy that’s like, this should be easy all the time. And that way you never really go on a real spiritual adventure, which is not easy all the time, but is always fulfilling. And so, you know, I think people really struggle with that, the challenge of that.
(8m 6s):
But then I’d also say, I think people really struggle with divesting from their allegiance to white male God, because for many people, white male, God has, and the whole idea behind white male God has propped them up and given them resources and power that they otherwise wouldn’t have. And to actually practice repar, the reparations of being aligned with the interests of the sacred black feminine is costly. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. And it’s, so, it’s such important work.
(8m 47s):
And I, I think one of the things that I’m, I’ve been really struck by in, in reading your book is, and you talked about this earlier, is, is that, you know, that tiny little pinprick of, of acceptability is that like investing in these structures of, of white male God are like, not actually serving any of us, but we have this idea that if we just get in that somehow we’ll be okay. And, and we see this a lot in the like queer and trans movement too, of, of this push for respectability. I I’m wondering if you can share a little bit about how you have learned or been learning to divest yourself from this idea of respectability and, and what that has done for you.
(9m 37s):
Yeah. You know, it’s so interesting because the, my book ends, the, the pilgrimage part that I write about in my book ends in late 2018. And so, you know, that’s almost four years ago now. And so it’s so funny ’cause I’m thinking, oh, a lot has changed since then that I didn’t write about in the book. One of the things was, I remember the last like, walk on my pilgrimage, maybe I was gonna go home a couple days later. I was thinking to myself, I could have this beautiful, transformative experience. I could even write about this beautiful, transformative experience. But if I don’t go home and integrate this into my everyday life, this is kind of not gonna do, this is not gonna liberate me.
(10m 23s):
And so I, I was already starting to think, if I go back to this, so I’ve had this experience where I have profoundly encountered this idea that God is in fact a black woman. So how does that change my life? Okay, well, that means that if God is really truly a black woman, then there’s no way she wants me to work in this dehumanizing academic position that I’m in. If God is truly a black woman, that if I leave this position somehow, somewhere, there will be a, there will be resources for me. I don’t know how, I don’t know where, but I can’t believe in a God that knows my experience and relates to my experience and wouldn’t in some way provide for me to be free.
(11m 12s):
If God is truly a black woman, then how is that gonna be reflected in my finances and what sorts of resources I’m keeping for myself assist black women that could be used in to support the lives of trans black women. And so it’s not hard to just follow that logic and really kind of like, put your money where your mouth is, or put your energy where your mouth is. And to me, every single time I’ve asked that question, I’ve had a choice. Like, do I want to go back into the safety of white male God, because I can do okay in that world.
(11m 52s):
It’s not healthy and it’s not free, but my bills are paid and I have health insurance and things like that, or I can keep getting free. And I kind of, I’ve thought ever since my pilgrimage, I’ve thought a lot about Harriet Tubman, my ancestor, because I imagine that she, you know, she was born on a plantation. She was raised on a plantation. She was taught this is the best life can possibly get, get for you. The, the best you can do is try to survive in this space. And then some days she just woke up and was like, I’m too sacred for this. And started to plan to leave. But we have no idea what happened in that time when she was like, how did she convince herself that it’s liberation’s worth it?
(12m 42s):
Even in this landscape off the plantation where she doesn’t know the language, she doesn’t have transferable skills, she doesn’t know who’s trustworthy and who’s not. She doesn’t know the geography. And that’s what we’re all dealing with when we decide to take a step towards abundance. And she, she wrote, she talks a lot about in her, in her writings and her speeches about the North Star. So she found this spiritual resource that she could look to. And that’s kind of what I do with the Black Madonna. You know, it’s like, I, I have them all over my house and sometimes people wonder why I even have a plastic black Madonna in my shower. And, and people always wonder why. And I say, well, I need to be reminded all the time that I’m sacred too, And that I can say no to this opportunity, or I can actually have a frank conversation in this relationship.
(13m 33s):
Or I can give sacrificially in this way, even though it scares me because I’m sacred too. And if I’m sacred too, then just like Jesus said, if I clothe the sparrows, I’m gonna clothe you too. Live your life. Don’t be afraid. You know, but I, it’s like I’m afraid. So I need to be reminded all the time that, that I don’t have to be afraid, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I, I wanna dive more into the Black Madonna and your pilgrimage in just a second, but one more question on, on this topic, because you talked about how much of your work at one point was trying to convince people to see your humanity and how exhausting that was, and how it was all about like, hoping that they would one day give a shit about you.
(14m 24s):
And I, I think that for many of our listeners who, who are in that space in their churches trying to convince churches to care about trans people or queer folks and who are also grappling with the reality that, like, especially for trans folks, we’re a very small percentage of the population. So at some point we do need cis folks to care in order to change politics. Like how do you, how do you grapple with, with that space of not wanting to be in a position to ask people to see your humanity, but also needing to figure out like how to, how to get things to change. Yeah. Yeah. This is another area where I think Palestinian theology was really trans transformative for me.
(15m 8s):
’cause they, they really take seriously the mustard seed in the Bible. And so I, so, you know, I, and I can’t speak from personal experience because I’m cis and what’s the percentage of trans folks? Less than 1%. Yeah. Best, best we can get It. And, you know, I, as a black person, I’m, I’m like 14% of the population in the United States, so it’s not the same thing. That said, one of the things that I have learned is, well, I think when I was trying to convince, and it was white people that I was trying to convince of my humanity, I had this idea that was like a white male God infused idea that like, white people are like a secret weapon.
(15m 55s):
And if you get white people to care, then like people then, like people will care. And Emma Martin Luther King had that same approach until he didn’t, and then he got killed, right? But like early on he thought, we need to convince, you know, the good, the so-called good white person. And he thought, you know, it really has to be a moral majority. And Palestinian theologians would disagree. They really would. They would say, you don’t need a lot people, you just need the right people. And to me, that’s been a practice of surrender to abundance. Because now I can ask the question, do I need to put myself out there in one of those tough conversations?
(16m 39s):
Right. Because I really, if I don’t say it, it won’t get said, if these people don’t get on board, get, don’t get on board and funded it, it won’t get funded. Right. Or so that, which would be a fearful reason for entering into that conversation versus like an abundant reason for entering outta that conversation, which is, we have what we need cosmically, I’m gonna invite this person for their good to participate in what’s happening here. Hmm. And so it’s, it’s not necessarily different words, but the abundant way is a lot less resource consuming, I’ll tell you that.
(17m 22s):
And, and I can, I find that I can be a lot wiser in who and when I engage those conversations, it’s not that, oh my gosh, I have to have every, you know, I, I have to, I have to, I have to, that urgency is gone to a certain extent. And you know, I’ll say as a cis person, that’s all the more reason why cis people need to be doing this work. ’cause it’s not trans people’s responsibility. Right. Yeah. That’s a, that’s a really helpful Think people need to care about race because it’s not black people’s responsibility. Right? Right. Yeah. If, if anyone’s having tough conversations in my church community around, around transness, I should be the one taking any hits or whatever, you know?
(18m 10s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s a really helpful reframe. Thank you for that. Sure. I, so I would love to talk about the black Madonna and the sacred black feminine. And I, I wonder if you can start by saying, you know, for, for folks who maybe grew up in more evangelical or Protestant traditions for whom both the idea of Madonna’s and this pilgrimage to see these figures might be foreign. Can, can you just talk a little bit about how you found this and also like how you made that shift? Because I also know that you grew up in, in a Protestant circle for whom this was not part of, of your growing up. Yeah. I, so I, yeah.
(18m 51s):
I grew up in a, in a community where Catholicism was satanic basically. Right. And so we weren’t even really allowed to interact with Catholics. Yeah. It’s so sad to me that people don’t know more about the Black Madonna. It’s a conspiracy. It’s like a patriarchal conspiracy. And, and it’s interesting ’cause a lot, most Catholics don’t even know about the Black Madonna, but she’s te okay, so what do I wanna say about this? ’cause it’s so big. How did I find her? I was desperate. I had been desperate. I, I was knowingly desperate beginning in 2012 when Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman.
(19m 37s):
At that time, I was really rooted in the evangelical world doing a lot of speaking and writing. And it was the first real sort of national experience that I had where these people who claimed I was a part of their family and loved me, could not hear me or black people. And that was the first time I experienced that as an adult. And so that’s when I started to really question the validity of white Jesus. ’cause I was pretty quickly able to make a connection between white Jesus and white, the, the sacredness of George Zimmerman and the reliability of George Zimmerman and the, the virtue of George Zimmerman versus Trayvon Martin.
(20m 22s):
But then in 2016, when Donald Trump was elected after having boasted about sexually assaulting white women, I was shocked. ’cause I knew, I know evangelicals don’t care about black people, but I certainly thought they cared about their precious white cis women. And I like to joke that like white femininity is like a fruit of the spirit in that world. You know? Like, it’s just like so valuable and used against everything. Right? And so I, I was really shocked. And that’s when I really started to, you know, grapple with the problem of male Jesus, exclusively male Jesus.
(21m 8s):
And so I was desperate. I just was like, where can I find any images of the divine that are black and female? Because we need, we need it all. And you know, Google didn’t, I mean, once you have the question, like I feel like the universe responds pretty quickly. So I found the Black Madonna that way, just searching. And I was shocked that, you know, she’s within Catholicism, although she’s obviously not owned by Catholicism. And I just went on a journey. But I will tell you, like, I feel like my biology changed the moment I saw a pic, a picture of her, like, and I exhaled in a way that I, I didn’t realize I had been holding my breath my whole life.
(21m 50s):
And I think I was like 35 at the time or something. So it was just one of those, like, you know, it’s interesting ’cause you know, you look back as a kid, I grew up, you know, I grew up so much in church, so I, and I’m, I’m very evangelical, so I’m like super biblically literate. And you know, I just, I think so much about like, these times when people would encounter Christ, Jesus Christ, and they would be like, changed this like weird boring interaction. You know, we’re fishing and we’re having breakfast afterwards, and then he’s there and then we’re changed and we just drop everything and follow him. You know? That’s how I felt when I met the Black Madonna.
(22m 33s):
Yeah. And so then you went on this, this pilgrimage, this journey to visit all of these, these different statues. What, what was that experience like for you? And, and what, why did you feel like you needed to, to go and, and be in person with these Figures? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I did about a year and a half of book research, and I did some, like e-course and stuff like that. There’s something so embodied about the Black Madonna, when you read the stories across the millennia about her, people would often pilgrimage and walk.
(23m 15s):
But then, and I noticed this as soon as I became devoted to the Black Madonna, I ordered off Etsy, like a little black Madonna necklace. And I, I was, I hated my job. I was a professor at Duke Divinity School at the time, and I was terrified to even be in the building. ’cause there were just a lot, there was a lot going on that was really violent there. And I remember putting on my necklace every morning ritually and being like, okay, like, I’m not alone and going into work. And it got to the point where, you know, two weeks after this practice, I was halfway to work and had forgotten it. And I turned around and went back, which is like, so Catholic, right? Like, I’m not gonna Go throughout my Day without my talisman or my, you know, my ritual.
(23m 58s):
But I was, I was amazed at how quickly I went from like, like, you know, in the evangelical world, it was like, oh, I would just be, I would recite a, a a memory verse to myself or something, you know. But it was just interesting to notice how quickly I shifted to embodiment. And then I also realized, like, part of what she was inviting me into was connecting with her beyond my head, and not just the book research and not just the PowerPoint presentations. And then I wanted to walk because so many other people have walked across the centuries. And also I, you know, the more I learned about eco womanism and the ways in which black women’s bodies have been antagonized and, and our relationship to the earth has been antagonized, I really wanted to connect with my body and connect with the earth as a practice of connecting with her.
(24m 54s):
So I ended up going to her, it, it aligned quite well with a paid leave that I had from Duke too. So, you know, it was nice that they paid for the trip and I had the time off to go do it. Yeah. But I went to go visit 18 different black Madonnas on that first pilgrimage, and I walked a little over 400 miles and it took about five weeks. I, I love that. I, I love your comments about being embodied because I, I think for so many of us who grew up in evangelical traditions, right? That sense of, of disembodied spirit or head knowledge is so pervasive.
(25m 35s):
And I think I, I know as a trans person, like I really called that holy, right? That disconnect from my body was like, well, I’m just like extra holy because I hate my body and I don’t wanna be in it. And, and so I’ve loved reading your book and, and how this practice really like Reem embodied you in a lot of ways, ways. Can you talk more about like how, how that has been transformative? This this, the Reem embodiment? Yeah. Well, nowadays I see my own body as the primary source of wisdom and guidance.
(26m 16s):
So I start with myself, and this is huge for me because I grew up in both a home and a church community where wisdom’s outside of you and you better make sure all the people whose opinions you value agree with whatever it is you think about anything or whatever decision you’re hoping to make. And so that’s been a huge shift for me. Another way is it’s forced me to slow down and to realize that, you know, one of, one of the people who’s taught me a lot about contemplative walking is like, you know, the body was designed to move at three miles per hour.
(26m 58s):
Like, we move a lot faster than that for lots of reasons because of technology and in part because of technology and capitalism. But it was really designed to, so it’s really forced me to rethink, redefine what it means to be effective, what it means to be efficient, redefine time, redefine even like the journey. You know, I, if I was telling my editor once we finalized the book and it was off to the press, if I’d had time for one more major revision, I would have made the book way funnier, because I’m funnier than the book suggest. And also because it was, it was funny.
(27m 41s):
Like, it was, it was hilarious to be out on this pilgrimage thinking about the absurdity of white male God, and how white male god’s always rushing you and always making you feel like you’re not doing enough, fast enough and big enough. And to actually be with these black Madonnas that have been their, I mean, like, there’s this one black Madonna that I went to go see who’s not in the book. ’cause you know, I couldn’t talk about all of them in the book. She’s the black Madonna of Lapu, and she has been there for at, since at least the year 400, but she’s probably Isis or Bel.
(28m 25s):
So she’s deeper than that because, than than the year 400. But she’s so powerful and so many people in that region pilgrimage to her to be, to touch her, to pray with her, to hear, have her listen to them. And the Catholic church came gentrified, the place turned her into, you know, built, tore down the temple that people had been worshiping the ancient goddess on, built a ca, you know, a Catholic cathedral on top of it. And she’s basically just become the queen of the cathedral. But that place where she is is the start of the Camino in France.
(29m 9s):
And so she, like, she’s been blessing and interacting with pilgrims for like over 1500 years with it, with no fanfare, with like, no headlines, but imagine like how people have been transformed on that pilgrimage and have gone out and done these amazing things that have changed the world, right? And she hasn’t gotten any other credit for it. And I feel like that’s what the invitation is. It’s so anti-white male god, right? She’s like, okay, you wanna change my name? Fine, labels don’t matter. Okay, you wanna change the trappings around my house? Fine, that doesn’t matter.
(29m 49s):
I’m gonna keep here. I’m gonna stay here quietly, but powerfully doing my work, transforming the world. And so when I think about her, I think size, efficiency, effectiveness, bottom lines, all those things don’t matter when you have access to a mystical power. And it’s like, I can’t, I can’t imagine there’s a more influential walking pilgrimage place than where she is. You know? Like, and like she’s, yet no one even knows. Yeah. That’s Amazing. Everyone starts there though. It starts right there at her cathedral. It’s so cool.
(30m 30s):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And it’s funny because when I first said I was gonna go on a walking pilgrimage in France, and people asked me if I was gonna do the Camino, and I was like super haughty about it. I’m like, man, the Camino’s in Spain. In Spain and plus there’s no black Madonnas. Ha, i I was completely Wrong. I wanted to be just like super unique. Actually, I, yeah, I was kind of on the Camino that one time when I went to visit her. I’m basic just like everybody Else, you Know, I’m, I’m wondering what you would say to someone who, who heard you talk about trusting yourself as this, as the first source of wisdom, who felt a little bit of panic about like, oh, I, I can’t, I can’t trust, I, I can’t trust my body, I can’t trust myself.
(31m 22s):
What would you say to them? I’d have a lot of compassion. I felt the same way. The fir, I didn’t put this in the, I wrote the story, but it didn’t make it into the book. I, the first Bible verse I learned when I was three years old, the first one my mom thought it was important to teach us was Jeremiah 17, nine. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it. And so at three years old when my little brain was forming, I was learning that the last person I should trust is me. And I remember having to do a whole year of therapy with just a one therapist who’s highly specialized in evangelical spiritual abuse, just to get past that.
(32m 12s):
Mm. So I get it. It is terrifying. It’s absolutely terrifying to have to, to, to even, to even fathom seeing yourself as sacred and not just sacred as in like, I’m worthy of someone dying for me, but sacred as in the divine wisdom that’s in the world is in me too. And yeah, it’s so scary and part, and part of the reason why it’s really scary is because for many of us, the body often feels like an inhospitable place because it carries so much trauma. And so I would say, you know, I, I’d have a lot of compassion for someone who feels a little freaked out by that, by that idea.
(32m 59s):
And I would also say, go really gently and kindly with yourself and try to get some support from a trauma informed person. Because there’s a reason why we hate our bodies and are afraid of our bodies and feel like our, we’re like, we’re estranged from our bodies. There’s a lot of trauma in there. And it, and oftentimes when we do look inward, it’s too scary to do it alone or we move too quickly. And so, I mean, there’s so much fear in my body. There’s so much insecurity in my body, and it’s only through years, several years now, I that I’ve been doing a body like body wisdom practice pretty intensely, you know, pretty intentionally that I’m starting to able to be with that and allow it to be there along with the other things.
(33m 50s):
And, but we’re taught the, we’re taught to not do that, and we’re taught to fear that. Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine, you know, I, I know in my, my story, you know, for people who read the book, I, I did experience quite a bit of body dysmorphia as someone with an eating disorder. I know a lot of my trans friends have had body dysmorphia for that reason, or for other reasons too. So that’s, that’s yet another reason to actual, like, harmful perceptions of our bodies or hate actual hatred of our bodies, you know, it’s very scary. So find someone who’s really loving and trauma-informed to be there with you.
(34m 34s):
Yeah. Yeah. You posted on social media on Instagram about God being a black trans woman, and then that created a kerfuffle and, and then you posted about how that kind of pushback made you even more convinced. I, I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about both the post and, And what that’s Yeah. So I got the pushback from a line in my book towards the end of my book. I just, you know, I’m talking about how if we really want to practice the sacred black feminine, not just, you know, claim some allegiance to her, we have to get into formation around her, what, what she values.
(35m 19s):
You know, this, this journey towards the Black Madonna has really expanded my own theological understandings of God. And I really feel like the Black Madonna is inviting, is inviting me into, okay, so let me, let me go back. So in the book, I talk a lot about how like white male, God has set up this pecking order, and she comes and completely disrupts that saying that the least of these, the black women are actually the ones who are sacred. And in doing so, she makes all of us sacred, right? But I’m a cis black, light skinned, upwardly mobile, formerly educated black woman.
(36m 7s):
I am not the least of these amongst black women. The least of these amongst black women is black trans women who have an average life expectancy of 34 years and are on average gonna make less than $10,000 a year in income. And so when the Black Madonna says, I’m completely reordering the pecking order per se, it means putting black trans women at top on the top. So when I say if God’s a black woman, then she must be a black trans woman. Yeah, I was surprised. I, I shouldn’t have been because my trans friends have talked to me about turfs, but I was surprised by how many people turfs were really upset that I included black trans women in my discussion of God as a black woman.
(36m 60s):
And it did make me more, more convinced because that, that behavior suggests that turfs don’t think that trans black women are sacred. And so that made me even more convinced that trans black women are sacred, and that, that the work that I do as a cis woman should be in alignment with that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I, I also love, I, I think your book is such a great example of how easy it is to be inclusive. And, and so subtly too of, of there was a, a line about like, I know not all women menstruate and not all people who menstruate are women.
(37m 43s):
And I was like, it, it’s not, it’s not that hard to include that and to just make space. I just, I felt so great, grateful for the ways in which your book made space for trans identities. And I just wanted to say thank you for that and thank you for providing a, a model, an example of, of how to do that well for cis folks. Really Appreciate that. Thank you. I’m, I, I asked a, a black trans man to help me edit it and, and consult on that. And also a non-binary Latinx person because I knew there’s so much danger in writing a book called God as a Black woman. And I, I mean, I’m sure there are things out there that, you know, a year from now I’ll be more aware and be like, oh, like, you know, like those things.
(38m 29s):
But it was, it was definitely a group effort. Yeah. Where, where, what are you working on now? What is kind of the new horizon that you’re excited about and, and exploring? So, so soon? Soon, I think in like two weeks, and I don’t know when this podcast is gonna air, we’re start, we’re launching a new e-course called Liberating the Mind Body Spirit from Capitalism. So I am like deep in thinking and moving and writing and thinking about getting free from the fear and connecting with abundance. So that’s really fun. I am also working on an e-course that we’re doing this winter starting in January called Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Mahalia Jackson.
(39m 18s):
Cool. And that’s gonna be timeless lessons on anti-racist leadership. So I’m, I am, it’s, I, I taught a class at Duke in, that was actually, that actually met in the prisons in North Carolina. One at Butner Prison, which is a federal prison. And the other one is Central, which was a state prison. And so half my students were incarcerated men and the other half were male Duke students, and that one was on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. So I, I’m, I’m pretty connected to their stories. So right now I’m spending a lot of time connecting with Mahalia Jackson story, and that’s been really neat. And I’m am starting to work on a book proposal, so we’ll see another, not another book. ’cause I feel like this book is really about me, but I’m gonna write a book about the Black Madonna.
(40m 3s):
Love it. That’ll be her book. Yeah. Not, not as much of my story, but hopefully a lot of other people’s stories as told through her. So yeah. It’s, there’s always, yeah. And my team members know, just be careful. ’cause the vision changes all the time. Right. Just be flexible. If, if people wanted to find you or follow your work, what, what’s the best place for them to connect with you? Patreon is where I’m doing most of my work. I’m pretty flaky on socials. I stopped intentionally posting on socials and now I just post whenever I feel like it, which can be a lot or none, depending on how I feel.
(40m 50s):
So Patreon’s a great way, especially if you’re white and you wanna support somebody who’s not white. And, but you can also sign up. I mean, if you, if anyone goes to my website, christina cleveland.com, there’s so many ways to get involved. We also have a free newsletter that’s like really luxurious. Like, it’s just like we designed it so you Can just Slowly scroll and see beautiful images and insightful quotes and it feels like a bath. It really does. It feels like a really good spiritual bath. Yeah. Those are some of the best ways. Very cool. And we love to end by asking everyone, what’s one thing that’s been bringing you joy lately?
(41m 33s):
Well, it’s starting to be fall here again. And last fall while I was in France, I got connected to this type of fabric called raccoon wool. And it changed my life. It’s like cashmere on steroids. Like it’s so soft and amazing and warm and it’s literally, they literally just sheer raccoons. So it’s sustainable. That’s Amazing. It’s like Sheep wool, but it’s raccoons. So there are no raccoons killed in the making of my raccoon wool sweater.
(42m 14s):
But I do have a 100% raccoon wool sweater. That is amazing. And I bought it in Paris last year, so That’s so cool. Bringing me a lot of joy. ’cause it’s nice to snuggle up. Yeah. Maybe not the most, you know, deep thing. It’s not. No, I love that. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, thank you so, so much for, for being a part of this podcast and for taking the time to have this conversation. Just really appreciate it. Thank you. I’m honored to be invited. Thank you again to Dr. Cleveland for being on the show. We have another interview coming to you next week, rabbi Denise Egger, my rabbi here in Los Angeles, who I’ve learned from so much and new interviews every week long through January.
(43m 4s):
Just as a reminder, supporters on Patreon get early access to episodes and that help to keep this podcast on the air. So if you are enjoying this, you’re excited for it, you want even more of it, patreon.com/queer theology to support the show. You can also support the show just by leaving a review. Every review helps us get the word out and to combat the haters out there who want to bring us down just because we’re queer. So thank you for being here and we’ll see you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we [email protected], which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LG BT Q Christians, and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit [email protected].
(43m 45s):
You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.
The post God is a Black Woman with Dr. Christena Cleveland appeared first on Queer Theology.
44 min
October 05, 2025Faith and Identity: Miryam Kabakov on Building Inclusive Orthodox Communities
We welcome Miryam Kabakov to the podcast this week. Miryam is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGTBQ+ individuals in the Orthodox world. She is Executive Director and co-founder of Eshel, @eshelonline, a national organization that supports LGBTQ+ Orthodox individuals and their families. Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miryam was the New York and National Program Director of AVODAH: The Jewish Service Corps, Director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan, Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps. She founded the New York Orthodykes, a support group for lesbian, bisexual and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of “Keep Your Wives Away From Them: Orthodox Women, Unorthodox Desires,” a collection of writings about the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award. In this conversation, Miryam shares her journey of growing up in a modern Orthodox community while grappling with her LGBTQ identity with Brian. She discusses the challenges of acceptance within her family and the broader Orthodox community, and how these experiences led her to found Eshel, an organization dedicated to supporting LGBTQ Jews. Miryam emphasizes the importance of community, rituals, and the ongoing work to create inclusive spaces within Orthodox Judaism. She also reflects on the evolving landscape of LGBTQ acceptance in religious contexts and the power of obligation and connection in fostering supportive environments.

Takeaways
Miryam’s upbringing in a modern Orthodox community shaped her understanding of faith and queerness.
The importance of community in navigating LGBTQ identity within Orthodox spaces.
A-Shell was founded to create supportive environments for LGBTQ Jews and their families.
Coming out is a continuous journey, especially in Orthodox contexts.
Family acceptance can take time, but patience is key.
Creating inclusive rituals is essential for LGBTQ individuals in Orthodox life.
The future of queer Judaism holds hope for greater acceptance and understanding.
Obligation to care for one another is a core value in Jewish tradition.
Retreats provide a safe space for LGBTQ individuals to connect and share experiences.
Communication and connection are vital for bridging gaps between communities.

Chapters
(04:38) Growing Up Orthodox and LGBTQ: A Personal Narrative
(08:58) The Formation of A-Shell: Building Community
(13:31) Navigating Dual Identities: Coming Out Experiences
(18:05) Creating Inclusive Spaces: The Work of A-Shell
(22:31) Ritual Innovations in the Orthodox Community
(24:11) Navigating Orthodox Jewish Law and Queer Identity
(27:36) The Intersection of Gender and Ritual
(29:26) Faith and Acceptance in Queer Identity
(32:27) Challenges of Inclusivity in Orthodox Communities
(34:24) Retreats: A Safe Space for LGBTQ+ Jews
(37:12) The Attraction of Orthodoxy for Queer Individuals
(40:57) The Power of Obligation and Community Support

Resources:
Learn more about Miryam and Eshel here: www.eshelonline.org
Follow Eshel on IG @eshelonline
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
(10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here Today on the podcast, we have a really special interview. Miriam Kabakov is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGBTQ plus individuals in the Orthodox world. Miriam is executive director and co-founder of Elle, a national organization that supports LGBTQ plus Orthodox individuals and their families.
(53s):
Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miriam was the New York and National Program Director of Voda, The Jewish Service Corps, director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps. Miriam received her MSW from the World’s Wilder School of Social Work. She also received a certificate in fundraising from the University of St. Thomas, and a certificate in program evaluation from the University of Washington, and has a background in informal Jewish education from Brandeis University. She founded the New York Orthodox, a support group for lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of Keep Your Wives Away From Them, Orthodox Women Unorthodox Desires published by North Atlantic Books in May of 2010.
(1m 37s):
A collection of writings are the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award. On a more personal note, I’m so excited to share this interview with you because I’ve seen up close and personal lives that have been transformed by a Shell. I just can’t help but keep coming back to the idea that we are stronger together and Miriam is working to make that a reality. Miriam, thanks so much for being here on the podcast with us. I’m, it’s really excited to talk to you. I got an impressive list of accomplishments and things that you’ve done both for the Jewish world and the LGBT community, And I, I know our audience is gonna be in for a treat with you today.
(2m 17s):
Thank you so much, Ryan. It’s really an honor to be here. I wanna, before we dive into sort of present day Miran and the work that you’re doing with Michelle, can you just take us back to a more like child, a younger version of yourself, and that’s sort of like, what was it like for you growing up? How does religion and queerness intersect for you and when did you start to become aware that maybe there was a rift or maybe people told you there should be a rift there? What, like, what was that, what was that upbringing like for you? Sure. I can go there. I go there a lot because calls that we get on our warm line always often make me think of myself as, you know, know a younger person, a younger version of health.
(3m 2s):
And it’s always remarkable to me that these many decades later people are still saying the things that I said when I was younger. And that is, I am the only one. I must be the only one. This is crazy. How could God have made me this way? You know, what I know about our tradition and our religion and what’s supposed to be the right way to live doesn’t really jive with how I’m feeling inside. Now, I grew up in a modern Orthodox community going to modern Orthodox Day school, and that means that meant to me that the modern world and orthodoxy had a way of coexisting, and that everything we learned, sort of both, both of those things had to make sense of each other in order to have that like understanding and combination of the modern world and the ancient world and our faith and science.
(3m 59s):
And so the way I grew up was that this is gonna be okay, but I didn’t know how. And what I mean is that what we would learn in school was like, how do you apply ancient texts and ancient laws and customs to modern day problems? So my father was an A doctor in New York City, and he used to take me as a young person to these medical ethics meetings with, you know, the Fed Jewish Federation in New York. And you know, and they would ask all of these really interesting questions, you know, about like death and dying and, you know, how do we deal with that when we know that we’re not really allowed to like assist somebody who’s dying to die?
(4m 44s):
Like, that’s not our place. This is just one example and what is our role in that moment when, you know, as a, as a modern day person, you know, that the person is suffering. So like they would grapple a lot with these really difficult questions. So I knew that there was gonna be a way, some way somehow for me to work this out. So I grew up just really being deeply steeped in my faith. I was very religious And I was more religious than my parents. As I grew and stuff, my orthodoxy even stronger and stronger And I really, really loved it. Like it was everything to me. It gave me my sense of myself, it gave me a sense of purpose in life. And, and then I was realizing that, that I’m attracted to the, the girls in the class, not so much to the boys and what’s gonna happen to me.
(5m 30s):
And I gave myself a certain number of years to grow out of it and to pray really hard and hopefully I, I would get over it. And that didn’t really happen. So I did other things. Like I saw some therapists and some rabbis who kind of gave me like some magic potion or like some prayers to say or things to do in my life to bring out the side of me that would be interested in being with a man. And none of those things worked for the long run. And then I sort of happened into a group of women who were also Orthodox and L-G-B-T-Q.
(6m 11s):
And it was then that I realized like, really truly I am not alone. And that if some people are making this work, I can make it work too. And I have to make it work because God loves me, God created me this way, obviously I’m not changing. So like, what am I supposed to do? Be a miserable human being. And in Judaism you’re not allowed to be a miserable human being that’s like an an Antifa thing. Like you just, you know, worship God enjoy. It’s like we have a commandment to be happy. And so that was what I believed And I believed that it was gonna work itself out somehow.
(6m 52s):
And the only real way that it did work itself out for me was in community. Like finding other people who are like me and you know, learning to celebrate together with this new community. And so going into the work that I do at ahl, I brought all of that with me and that the first thing that we actually did was have a retreat. So we didn’t actually know how many people would come and we basically, the first year we did it was we sold out the retreat center. We had about 115 or 20 people and we were like, this is the best thing ever and this is going to have to continue. And so we just, we’ve hit the 15th year, we’re we’re keeping on, keeping on, and after three years we added another retreat for parents of LGBT LGBTQ people, Orthodox parents.
(7m 43s):
And for them as well, it is a parallel process between their children and themselves. Just like their kid couldn’t tell them the parents or anyone else in the Orthodox community, the parents feel that they can’t tell anybody in their community. So when they come to this retreat, it’s like the very first time that they can actually speak their truth about their child. And they don’t have to fear when somebody says, how is, how is your kid doing? You know, are they married yet? Like no one is gonna ask that question. So it’s a very special environment. And yeah, so that’s a long way of saying like, where I came from and how I got here and why we do what we do at a Shell or how, you know, one of the things that we do, which is community building.
(8m 28s):
I love that. I love that. I recognize myself in that sort of like, I don’t know how it’s gonna work out, but it’s gonna work out. And I think, I don’t know where we got the hutzpah from, but like not everyone has that reaction I’m finding. And so I I’m glad that, I’m glad that you had that, that it’s true sense. Yeah, it’s true. Not everybody has that. And So I, I imagine that part of what led you to form a Shell was this sort of experience of community, but there’s a big leap from just sort of like seeing the power of community and wanting to be part of it to founding a whole organization. Like what was it that led you to make something formal around LGBT LGBTQ Jews or like Orthodox Jews? Good question. It was a long journey, I guess, into, you know, the moment when a group of us were able to like formulate this nonprofit and, but it was preceded by like over a decade of forming communities, mostly in New York City at the time.
(9m 26s):
I, my story started in Jerusalem with a group called The Orthodox of Jerusalem, and I love that. Yeah. And, and then I brought that group to New York, like I came to New York And I started doing that, doing, having that group there. And we met at the center on 13th Street, the LGBT LGBTQ center. And I didn’t, again, I didn’t think anyone would show up. And every single month new women came, people came back and it became a very big robust group. And alongside that, there were other groups forming one that became predominantly inhabited by men. And yeah, there were just like, you know, these informal underground groups.
(10m 10s):
And by underground, I mean we were not funded by the Jewish community by any means. We were not funded by the LGBT LGBTQ community and we were all volunteer led, you know, and just kind of, we were doing our own thing and feeling like this is like beginning to feel like a movement, like this is like beginning to feel substantial. And you know, at the same time, other organizations had started, obviously in New York and way before that also of, you know, for LGBT LGBTQ Jews or just LGBT LGBTQ people. But we didn’t really think that anyone would take us seriously because, you know, like why be Orthodox? That was always the question, well, why are you, why don’t you just leave?
(10m 52s):
What are you like, why, what are you beating your heads against the wall? And anybody who asked us that, like it was clear to me they had not been in the orthodox community, like fully immersed. ’cause you know, people don’t really get the, the what’s so compelling and what’s so compelling is that it’s like, it’s a kind of a thing that holds you in life. So you’re not floating alone in the ether. There’s a very strong sense of community and responsibility to each other. There’s a very deep sense of purpose and meaning, and it’s very, very hard to give that up. And so people would say like, yeah, why, why are you orthodox? So, so that’s why we didn’t really think people were gonna take us that seriously.
(11m 33s):
And then the Orthodox folks would be like, you can’t be LGBT LGBTQ. That’s just not a thing. They didn’t even use that word. We can’t be homosexual. That’s like not a thing. You know, if you are, it’s because you’re following your yate sharra, which means your evil inclination and you better get over it. You have to like conquer your ever evil inclination. You’re not working hard enough. So like there was no sympathy from anybody, You know, like We had it both, both sides. Like, you can’t be this and you can’t be that. So, and that was sort of when this, this feeling of movement, a movement was forming, you know? And that was when in 2010, a bunch of us got together and helped launch this project, and which later became a Shell Inc.
(12m 18s):
Which is our organization. And, and it, it like, its time had come and, you know, how did we get funding that was like the whole thing and that just like, it’s really the same, it was the same story, like nobody was gonna fund us. And then along came a, a minister, a woman who had started a, a project called Welcoming Congregations and she also has a family foundation and she heard about us and she reached out or somebody reached her and there was a match made. And that was our first substantial grant that could really like, help us launch our projects and, and start a shells.
(13m 1s):
So gratitude to the Christian community or for, to her and for the work that she did. And we modeled some of our projects after the work that she was doing also. So that’s how we got started. Very cool. You, well you took one of my follow up questions out of my mouth about sort of when coming out, like why, why state orthodox. But I’m curious also, just like on a more personal note, like what was your experience like coming out as an LGBT person in the orthodox world? And I don’t know if I love using this language, but as an or as an orthodox person in the LGBT community, those sort of like dual coming outs. Yeah. You know, coming out as LGBT LGBTQ in the orthodox world was a, a long haul and it’s was never like ever done.
(13m 45s):
It still doesn’t ever feel like it’s done because you always have to remind people or tell people, you know, I’m married to a woman, so like I have to like share that information in orthodox spaces, you know, and that’s not a given. Like it’s, you know, there’s an assumption of heterosexuality obviously. So, but it, but it was, for me it was the hardest part was with my family, obviously, you know, feeling accepted by my parents and then by my siblings who are, are very, very orthodox in different ways. And so it was painful.
(14m 25s):
It was like a very, it was a very big challenge and it was a struggle and it, it took years and it took years to, to heal from the pain of the rejection. And, you know, half my family not coming to my wedding was a huge slap in the face to me as somebody who was always there for them and their kids and their weddings and their happy times. And so thank God I’m in a wonderful place with my family now And I feel very blessed about that. I really, really do. But it was a very long journey. And so now when I hear parents talking about their kids or I hear LGBT LGBTQ people talking about, you know, their families are like, you know, their family members not showing up for them in the ways that they’ve shown up for their family members.
(15m 15s):
I always wanna say like, please just gimme their number. I wanna like share my, I wanna like make sure that you don’t have years of pain like I did and years of needing to heal. Like there’s an easy way out and that is like, let’s step up, you know, the, the love and the acceptance and the empathy, but that’s my fantasy. It doesn’t really work like that. Everybody has to go through their own understanding and their own journey with this. And so that’s just to say that, you know, the family piece is the hardest piece And I think that’s why we really focus on the family, the families that we work with. ’cause if the parents are okay, the kids are gonna be okay ultimately.
(15m 55s):
And so we also focus on obviously LGBT, LGBTQ people finding each other. We have a very big network of that for friendship, for companionship, for love, for whatever it is community and yeah. So, and then coming out in the LGBT LGBTQ world as an orthodox person, yeah, people would just look at me funny And maybe less so now, but yeah, it’s, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I can’t say I experienced the antisemitism that people are experiencing now.
(16m 35s):
It’s incredibly painful. What I’m seeing people go through right now. And you know, we did actually recently did a study of if LGBT LGBTQ Jews are feeling comfortable in queer only spaces like non-Jewish queer spaces and a large percentage of them are leaving those spaces. ’cause there’s just such intense antisemitism coming from, you know, the sentiment about against Israel and they have no place to go. ’cause they can’t go into their Orthodox communities, you know, for solace. They come to us, you know, so we’re, our community’s gotten stronger.
(17m 17s):
But anyway, I’m hoping that won’t last forever. Yeah. You know, you talk about the importance of that sort of family acceptance and also in your own life, it took your, it took some of your family a while to get there. And I’m wondering like what advice do you have for someone who’s, whatever their religious background might be, but then their parents are having, are not accepting at this moment. Like how do you balance, like not feeling like you’re banging your head against a wall and how do you like find the sort of joy in the moment while also also being able to sort of go on the, the journey with, with the parents and not have to feel like you have to cut them out entirely. Like how they, how do you, how do you, like, how do you like thread that needle?
(17m 59s):
Okay, so like for the parents, they love being together. It’s really beautiful. Like the parents have formed their own family almost. And, and they help each other a lot. There’s a lot of peer support out of this community. They came up with a saying that I use all the time that life is long and life is short or life is short and life is long. Really, like we all know what life is. Short means, like things feel like they’re going really quickly and all of a sudden you turn around and you’re 10 years older and like that. But, but life is long in that if you give people time and if you let them take their time, things will change.
(18m 40s):
So that, I repeat that like a mantra to every single parent I talk to when they’re, when they’re in distress, I’m like, you know, life is long. You’re gonna see the, the story isn’t over about your child. I do say the same thing to the LGBT LGBTQ people, but it’s harder, I think it’s harder for them to hear. ’cause you know, they’ve been living with this way longer than their parents have known about them. So they’re more impatient. Like they finally come out and they’re like, okay, I’m out. I’ve accepted myself. Yay. Where’s my party? And the parents are like completely devastated. So I say to them like, you’ve known for 15 years but your parents are just finding out now and you know what it’s like in the Orthodox community, so you need to be patient.
(19m 28s):
Yeah. So patience all around. Yeah. Can you say more about your work and like how much of it is focused on trying to get orthodox schuls or orthodox organizations to be, to change versus sort of supporting LGBT folks in figuring out what it means to live an Orthodox life or a Jewish life outside of, or alongside of those institutions or amongst their own sort of like found family created communities? Yes. All of it. All of it at once. Yeah. When we started we didn’t know like where to prioritize, where to begin.
(20m 12s):
And we started at coming at it in both ends, like giving community and in support to LGBT LGBTQ people and starting to chip away at the orthodox community’s understanding of what this is. And so we’ve never abandoned either end of that. Like our mission is to create an LGBT LGBTQ inclusive orthodoxy where people feel like they just belong, like they belonged yesterday before they came out. You know, that is like a seamless transition between before the day before when you were not out and the day you came out. And so that is a really, that’s a lot of work.
(20m 52s):
So we have this program called the Welcoming Shools project and it’s like a series of interviews with people with rabbis who lead congregations and just kind of talking with them. It’s a very non-judgmental conversation just to hear how they will have an LGBT LGBTQ person belong in their synagogue. And there’s a wide range of questions like rituals like that you’ll let them do or events like, you know, milestones you’ll let them celebrate and just generally feeling inclusive of them. And we’ve interviewed 300 of these synagogues so far.
(21m 34s):
We’re still doing, we do about 25 a year and it’s a beginning of a conversation and we also are able to assess like, is this a place we would send somebody? And everybody has a different, you know, ability to tolerate other people’s intolerance. Yeah. Some people will be fine going to one synagogue and some people will be fine, not be fine. So we have to sort of like make a match. So we work a lot on, on making orthodoxy in, you know, a friendly place. That’s really what we do. That’s our goal. But we can’t do that. We can’t just expect people LGBT, LGBTQ people to sit around and wait for that.
(22m 18s):
Right? Right. So we create, like, the way I see our Retreats is like, or our gatherings is like a, it’s like a, a utopian space. It’s like, this is how we want it to be and we give people a sense of how it will be and how it can be, and it, it, it also takes patience. But now in a few places we’re seeing that some of our members have gone and created LGBT LGBTQ like groups inside orthodox synagogues. Mm, wow. Right. Yeah. That was 10 years ago. No. And so that’s really wonderful and that kind of is a beautiful combination of the two things that we’ve been working on.
(23m 4s):
You know, strengthening people from within so that they have the belief that they don’t have to leave the community and the ability to advocate for themselves and then the orthodox community. Like recognizing you’re the same person that I knew yesterday and there’s no reason why you should have to go anywhere else. Yeah. Wow. What other sort of major important changes have happened that you’ve seen since you founded Elle? So I guess what we’ve seen is like, first of all, the statistics around people coming out in general in America show that people are coming out younger and younger, and this is true in the Orthodox community as well.
(23m 52s):
And that, and because like 10 or 15 years ago or 20 years ago, people were coming out like the average age was like 21. So like a kid would go to college or they would leave home and then they would come out. So the community didn’t really need to figure out what to do about it. But now teenagers are coming out in Orthodox Day schools. So some orthodox communities are really getting a real, like their own taste of what this means to really have that person still belong. And some of them are making choices to like, for, I’m not judging it honestly, sometimes it’s just a practical thing. They can’t make it work or you know, they’ll have a mass exodus, the parents will pull their kids out of the school and then the school will, you know, be damaged in a not good way.
(24m 39s):
And so like, you know, no judgment, but, but there are places that are able to hold the student and keep them. And so that’s different that there are queer orthodox kids staying inside of day schools. And that’s a good thing. We have built this incredible parent network and so there’s that for people, you know, that parents are not alone so they can figure out how to help their child. Yeah. And that we’ve given a space for queer Orthodox Jews to feel whole, like there is now this place. And so these things are all new things, I think.
(25m 21s):
And, and because of that, I think that a lot of the Orthodox communities are recognizing that this isn’t a choice, it is the nature of the human condition. As one of my favorite professors in my master’s program at Yeshiva University used to say Norman Linzer, he used to say, this is the nature of the human condition. And that’s a phrase that I say all the time like this buddy, like, this is not changing, this is the way God made us. So you have to figure out how to deal with us in a loving and accepting way.
(26m 2s):
Yeah. And I guess what what also is beginning to change is the ritual side. Like orthodox queer people want what straight Orthodox people want because that’s how they were raised. So they were like raised to expect certain things for themselves. You know, it’s, it’s very heteronormative, but like, I’ll say it anyway, like, you know, being married, getting married, having children, not for everybody obviously, but this is like the cultural norms of this community. So they expect that. And if they can’t have it, they’re like gonna make it, they’re gonna create it. So there’s a ton of new rituals coming out and they’re starting to be more clergy in the orthodox sphere that will help facilitate these rituals, which is really new.
(26m 52s):
And these are all great things. Yeah. Can you, can you say more about these, like the ritual aspect of it and, and also like, as a relatedly, I suppose that the Orthodox world obviously is, has a long way to go when it comes to LGBT stuff, but also there’s also different roles and rituals for men versus women in the orthodox world and a lot of, many of the rituals are, are, are gendered as well. And so like, like what is that, like, what are some new innovative ways folks are expanding orthodox ritual? Yeah, great question. It’s, it’s really new. So like the ways that I’ve seen the rituals so far are around marriage and you know, the language of those rituals is male and female.
(27m 42s):
And so people will create rituals that don’t feel like they are violating Orthodox Jewish law because orthodox queer Jews don’t want to violate Orthodox Jewish law. So they’ll do some alternatives like, but that feel like the same kind of a wedding, for example. So like when I came out And I invited my Orthodox relatives to my wedding, they were most appalled that it was gonna be a Jewish wedding. And I was like, what did you think I was gonna do like a Buddhist wedding?
(28m 23s):
Like what, what were you thinking would be good for me or comfortable for me? So, you know, my partner And I, it was, it felt like a very traditional wedding, But we took out some things that we knew that were not gonna jive with my understanding of orthodox law, but it felt orthodox. It felt like it, it like, it was a very traditional wedding. So that’s just to say that there’s a lot of like keeping true to what feel like what is the tradition without, with also keeping true to Jewish law. Okay. So that’s one thing in terms of other rituals, like there’s a ritual for a woman to af if she’s married and she is stopped menstruating, that she goes to a mikva, like a ritual bath.
(29m 14s):
And so, you know, we get this question a lot or you know, I’ve heard it many times like, what do two women do in that case? And do those same laws apply because, you know, men and a woman don’t, like they sleep in separate beds during her time of menstruation. So like, what do two women do? And so there are people that teach this, like how do you manage that? But not everybody thinks like, not every orthodox queer person thinks that that’s relevant because it’s only relevant to a man and a woman. So like, I guess what I’m Mm, Kind of boiling it down here to, like, some people will take the paradigm and plunk it right onto their lives and some people will say, no, you know what, I’m actually under the radar of this Jewish law because I’m not with the member sex.
(29m 60s):
Right. Yeah. And then I feel like maybe Brian, you were alluding to like bi the binary, were you, I mean, not necessarily though week, we can certainly go there. I was sort of like just thinking about the ways in which like gender, like, like rabbis and like who, like who lays to fill in and sort of obligations around like other sorts of like ritualistic obligations Yeah. That are like, that are, that are not necessarily queer issues, but that are like, have a gendered component as well that maybe like some trans folks are like, like how do I, how do I, how do I navigate haha around what are my obligations as a man or a woman or as a person with like this body part or that body part?
(30m 50s):
And are they just sort of like putting themselves into existing rituals? Are they creating like new rituals or Yeah, I I’m feeling like mostly in the orthodox sphere that we’re not necessarily creating new rituals. We’re trying to figure yeah. How to take on the rituals that we’re supposed to take on, but as you know, the person I am today, like how does this map onto this new reality of who I know I am and who I wanna be seen as. Yeah. So yeah, I think there’s more of that than creating our own rituals that are like radically different. Yeah. Yeah. And so can you say more about just like for yourself, like what does it mean to be like queer and religious?
(31m 34s):
Like what does that like look like for you on a, on a, on a sort of like a soul level, I suppose That I am, I’m accepting that I’m different than most people and that God is okay with that and it’s gotta love me anyway. Like I said earlier, you know, and I can’t radically change myself. Like I can’t perform, you know, heart or brain surgery on a metaphorical level. Like I just can’t and change the way that God made me. So, and, and my obligation is to rejoice and to like be a happy person as much as I can be and have faith, you know, even in the, in light of all of the horrible things that are going on in this world.
(32m 24s):
Like, yeah, I wake up every morning shaking my head like, really is this really going on? And so like, but to have faith is, is an important thing. And, and so yeah, just, you know, trying to figure out how to keep my faith and understand that I’m, I feel things differently than maybe my siblings or you know, people, some of the people around me. And that it’s also, it’s okay and it’s, it’s, this is the way God made me. So it’s like here I am, you know? That’s what it’s like for me. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m struck by the tension of wanting to sort of like stay within the bounds of Jewish law and also like wanting to have like the ritual that feels orthodox and wanting to change congregations, but also like, not change orthodoxy.
(33m 28s):
And maybe this is a, maybe we cut this question and it’s an off record, like, but like Holocaust, does it change slowly? Right? And so like, like in what, like when you imagine a, a queer Jewish future 500 years from now, like are the wedding ceremonies between two queer Jews still sort of like, oh, well we’re able to sort of like, fly under the radar and make this work in our own way? Or like, is there a world where queerness could be totally integrated into Haha Yeah, I mean, for sure this is, okay, this is what I learned as a younger person, right?
(34m 9s):
Like living my modern orthodox community that we’re not changing halakha, but halakha needs to address our lives as we see Like, that’s just halakha. It’s halakha means the way, so like, given you know who I am, what is the way I need to live, and just as ha you know, Halakha has addressed questions of, of the modern day, like in SI science or, you know, with disability or you know, just things that, you know, in the time of codifying Jewish law they didn’t know about. So like now what that we know, what is your answer today?
(34m 50s):
And so there are rabbis out there who are creating what’s called response literature. Like when you ask that question of do two women have to keep the laws of Nita, which is that the family purity laws around menstruation, which is what it’s called. And there are people addressing those questions. So like for us to be able to like live in halak way in the way of Jewish law. So, so I guess 500 years from now, it’s like, it’s like a non-issue and that we figured it out and just like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago when the rabbis, you know, talked about nine different genders, like recognizing genders, like it wasn’t a thing, it wasn’t a big deal, it was just like, this is the way it is and for whatever reason, you know, there’s tremendous, you know, fear and Yeah.
(35m 52s):
Understanding and you know, otherness about it and it shouldn’t be that way and it wasn’t that way. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways it, it sometimes in some areas feels like there’s a little bit of like going, I don’t know, like going backwards or fear of the unknown. Like, you know, you know, you have stories about, you know, a long time ago people being like, oh, this person was named one thing and then they left and then they came back and like, now they’re a man. And so like, clearly they’re gonna be a man and like if they, they can figure that out in like, I dunno, when it was like 1920s or 1880s Poland like surely we can figure it out in 2025 America. Right, right, right. The, the mystery of God’s world. That’s how I think. Yeah. Think about it.
(36m 33s):
And so what, like what are do what are some of the challenges that you see for why orthodox rabbis aren’t more inclusive? So I don’t wanna speak for them, but I guess there’s tremendous fear, I think of the unknown. And there’s also concerns about not being accepted amongst their peers. And if we let the gay people come to our synagogue, like, what will be next? You know, what, how will this structure fall apart or how will it affect us in a negative way?
(37m 15s):
Like, what bad things will happen after that? You know, things that are also unknown to us. And so I think that’s a lot of it is, I hate to say peer pressure, you know? Yeah. And a fear of what they don’t know. And I under I understand that. I mean, I get it, you know, when you don’t know something, it’s scary. Yeah. And so a lot of what we do is try to put a human face on, you know, queer people and just be like, let’s get us together in a room and talk to each other, talk to other, you know, and communication is the key. Listening is the key to getting into someone’s heart and that’s, that’s what we need to do.
(38m 2s):
’cause that’s what’s keeping us out. Yeah. I mean I, I think that’s why the work of your organization is so important because it’s, it’s, it’s like bringing all these people together And I don’t, it just feels like, like eventually there’ll be like a watershed moment. Like there’s a, there’ll be peer peer pressure from the opposite direction. Right? Right. Like it’s, it’s scary to be the only one saying it, but when you’re sort of one among many voices, like the connecting that you do both of LGBT Jews to one another, but parents and rabbis and the work, like, it helps to sort of make it a little bit easier to be brave. And so I yeah, I’m so glad that you’re doing this work. I know that Retreats and gatherings are like a big part of your work.
(38m 42s):
Like can you gimme a, can you give us a sample of like, what does it look like to go on a retreat as, as like an for one, maybe like for both sides, like an LGBT focused retreat or a parent focused retreat. Like what’s a day in the life of a retreat? Yeah, it’s a good question. ’cause we think a lot about that when we create them. And what we want is for the queer person to walk into this retreat. And it’s always on Shabbat. So it’s always like a Friday night, Saturday, Sunday so that they can experience exactly what they had when they grew up with one difference. And that one difference is that they’re fully accepted and it feels very magical. Like I was saying before, like a little slice of utopia, you know, Ghana, Eden, the Garden of Eden, like it’s utopian to like have that change like that, you know, Shabbat looks and feels and sounds exactly like it did in the spaces that you were a part of that didn’t accept you, but you can be exactly who you are and be surrounded by people who have the same kind of experience.
(39m 52s):
So it doesn’t look much different than your maybe average orthodox retreat over a weekend. But we do have a lot of sessions and we have a lot of speakers and people sharing their stories a lot. We have a lot of storytelling, a lot of, you know, people just sharing their backgrounds and where they came from to give and where they are now. And so like people have an inspiration for like how they can live their lives and, you know, and with the parents, same, like, it looks just like an Orthodox retreat and that’s what it is. It’s on Shabbat. We, you know, keep strict laws of keeping kosher and keeping Shabbat and, and all the joyousness of those that day.
(40m 38s):
Like we have it all. And yet the parents know that they can completely let their guard down with each other. And we do a lot of learning together and a lot of psychoeducation and education, you know, things that they need to know to parent their kid. So, yeah. Yeah. Do you have any coming up? Oh yeah, we have. Thanks for asking Brian. We have two, two of our Retreats. The LGBT LGBTQ retreat will be on March 13th to 15th, and the parent retreat will be April 30th to May 3rd, God willing of 2026.
(41m 20s):
And they’re usually on the east coast. So this one will be in Maryland and people can find out about it on our website. And registration isn’t open yet, but it will be, you know, in, in a few weeks or months. Awesome. And we’ll put links to all of that in the show notes of this podcast episode. And this, this next question might also be one that that has to the god in room for, because the answer might be no, but, but earlier you talked about, you know, when people find out that you’re, when queer people sometimes find out that you’re orthodox, they’re like, well, why are you still orthodox? Or like, what’s the point of being orthodox? And certainly I know lots of non-Orthodox Jews that are like, I just like don’t get that whole world.
(42m 1s):
But I also know what seems like a growing number of Jews who were either grew up secular or reform and are sort of interested in moving like towards like conservative or more orthodox practice, but feel like, well I don’t want to, like I’m trans. I like don’t know if I, I’m like, I’m not gonna go to a habad house. Like, and so like I I’m wondering if any part of these are sort of like the work that you do attracts like orthodox curious, queer, queer Jews. It absolutely does. And it’s always, we always like scratch our heads a little bit. Like we get a lot of calls from people who wanna convert to orthodoxy.
(42m 44s):
Hmm. A lot of trans people also. And you know, I have certain theories around maybe like some trans people have said to me, ’cause like in an orthodox synagogue you have a, you have a divider, so men aren’t, or one side of women on the other. And as you know, growing up in that and you’re sitting in the women’s section, but you feel like you belong in the men’s section when you finally can go into the men’s section, it is like incredibly validating around, you know, your gender. So, but anyway, so for people who are wanting to convert or who are ortho curious also like, you know, it’s not like I don’t get it because it’s the same answer that I give.
(43m 26s):
Why are you still orthodox? Right? Yeah, I get it. It’s a very compelling life and, but it comes with so many restrictions and so many things you cannot do, but it also comes with great meaning and things you can do and you’re, you’re supposed to do. So yeah, people are drawn to it. non-Orthodox people are very drawn some times to orthodox spaces and there’s a warmth. There’s also, like I was saying before, a sense of meaning and ritual and an obligation. And so I think that in a world where, you know, like anything goes, sometimes people need to be told no, everything doesn’t go like, yeah, you can’t do this now, you can do this later.
(44m 7s):
Like, I think people like boundaries and that is what Jewish law gives you. It gives you a structure. And I know I craved that when I was growing up, so that’s what I got out of it. Yeah. So people want meaning, you know, people want warmth, people want community, and these are all the things that we get in this community. I love that you said obligation in that sort of mix of things. I think about that a lot as a community organizer and as a relationship coach. And like there certainly is something about boundaries and there’s something about like, we’re all responsible for our own feelings and all of that. Like, and also there, for me it feels like something about, there is also something about like choosing to be bound up together and choosing to be obligated to one another.
(44m 57s):
Or like maybe sometimes like being told that you’re obligated to one another. And so like, can you share more about like whether like in an orthodox framework or just like in your own sort of like personal Miriam framework of sort of like the power of obligation and how that could look like in a healthy context? Sure. So I have this reflex that not everybody in my family appreciates That Whenever I hear that somebody does not have a place to spend Shabbat or like they need a place to stay over, like I’m like, stay with us, you know, and I’m moving other People some, yeah, the same reflex. They don’t have the same reflex all, I mean, they’re very hospitable, but I’m just like, you have to stay with us.
(45m 40s):
Like, that is, and that’s actually, that’s the whole metaphor of the a Shell tree. So I guess it works for me that Abraham and Sarah planted this sheltering tree in the desert. So when they saw people wandering and needing a place to stop and, and be fed and being taken care of, and then they would do that and then send them on their way. So that’s the a Shell tree metaphor. And, and you know, so like I have this feeling of like, if somebody needs a place, you just give it to them. There’s like no question. So it’s not even a choice for me. You know, if somebody’s sick, it is not a choice. You actually must try to visit them or bring them some food.
(46m 23s):
If somebody needs money to live it, it is not a choice to give charity. It is an obligation for us to give at least 10% of our income to charity. And so like, there’s not a lot of questions like, tell me what to do and I’ll do it. You know? And so yeah, I think that’s, you know, we’re obligated to take care of each other and so yeah. So those are some of the ways it shows up in my life. Awesome. If folks are like interested in learning more about Elle getting involved in the programming, wanna tune into your, like make use of your warm line.
(47m 4s):
Like what are the ways that folks can connect with you? Sure. So great. So just, you can email us, I will tell you [email protected], E-S-H-E-L-O-N-L-I-N-I-N e.org info at. And you’ll find somebody who, an actual person on the other line, on the other side of that who will respond to you. And if you, if you’re in, if you’re feeling like you’re in distress or you want support or you wanna find out more about our programs, you can call our warm line, which the number is 7 2 4 SL zero one or 7 2 4 3 7 4 3 5 0 1.
(47m 52s):
You can leave a voicemail or a text. Yeah. So there’s a lot of ways just go to our website and you’ll see all the ways to reach out to us. We have a whole calendar of events. We have about 15 to 20 support groups we run each month online, so they’re very accessible. And then we have a lot of regional events in different cities, and we have a full program in New York City, so that’s good if people are in that area. Also, we have Shabbat dinners and we do once a month on a Monday night, we have a in-person event in New York and we have chapters all over.
(48m 33s):
So there’s also ways for people outside of New York City to get involved and to be with people. Fantastic. Well thank you for this lovely conversation. And I, we like to close by asking guests, like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy lately? I love that. Oh boy. You know, I have to say, I’m discovering, and this isn’t, I grew up in the city, a New York City girl. Like this was never anything I would’ve said. Like, I like being in nature, just, it does bring me joy. And I, I learned that from being in nature and, and being in the moment, like there’s nothing, like just being fully present and just appreciating what is right now, this very moment.
(49m 15s):
And, And I also, my, my dog brings me great joy. He’s incredible. He is a love bug And I just love being with him. And so I think like, you know, I think animals and, you know, there’s like great, that’s also part of nature, you know, just like these beings that actually we have no clue what they’re thinking or what they’re, you know, they’re what they’re all about. It’s like a mystery. So like, I just love, you know, I love watching birds and animals and being with my animal and yeah. So those are two things I think. And what else? My children, when they’re willing to talk to me when they’re teenagers, but they, they bring me incredible joy.
(49m 59s):
So yeah. Thank you for that question. I love thinking about that. You’re welcome. Well, thank you again, Maria, for being here with us today. Absolutely. Brian, it was so great to meet you. Maybe I’ll see you at an initial retreat. Yeah. I’m like, I’m like, sign me up and you stop by at night in New York or something. I’m, I’m gonna be joining the email newsletter and staying in the loop on all things. Sounds really cool. Oh good. Alright. Thank you. Keep up the good work, The podcast. Thank you. The Queer Theology podcast Is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBT, LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.
(50m 42s):
We’ll see you next week.
The post Faith and Identity: Miryam Kabakov on Building Inclusive Orthodox Communities appeared first on Queer Theology.
51 min
September 28, 2025Throwback: The End. Or is it? Matthew 26-28
In this week’s throwback episode, we return to the final episode of our eight-part series on Matthew. And here is where we come to crucifixion and resurrection.. The End… but really, the Beginning! It’s important for us to call out and recognize in these texts the significant polemic against the Jewish leaders, even if most of Matthew’s audience still considered themselves to be Jewish. The context is crucial here for us to not continue the anti-semitic rhetoric that “the Jews killed Jesus”, but underline that the Roman Empire killed Jesus. We have stories of the anointing of Jesus, the last supper, his betrayal, the trial, and subsequent punishment of death. From the story of the resurrection, we really look at who Jesus entrusted the continued work of discipleship. It is not to perfect angels that this work is given to continue, but to the doubting, flawed, messy, complicated people. How can we embrace that same call to follow Jesus today?

Resources:
Journey Into the Bible part of Spiritual Study Hall
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
(1m 56s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis to Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. And welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Can you believe that we are at the final, the final section of our deep dive into the gospel of Matthew? I can hardly believe it, to be honest.
(2m 37s):
This has been a ride. Yeah. You know, before we dive into these final things, I just wanna say, you know, Brian, you And I have talked about how over the years of doing the lectionary that revisiting these texts, even texts that we were super, super familiar with, that we learned and discovered new things about the stories about ourselves because that we were different from the time that we had revisited them. And I, And I have to say that doing this deep dive and reading this kind of in order all along, like I’ve learned so many new things, even though I already, I felt like I already knew a lot. And I’m wondering what this experience has been like for you.
(3m 17s):
It you feeling that too? Like what’s, what’s kind of standing out for you? Yeah, I also feel like I am learning new things. Finding new things. You know, I think that a few weeks ago I said something like, it just scripture’s kind of like a, like a, a fruit where you, or an orange where you can, like, there’s always sort of like more that you can, you can squeeze out of it. And so returning to some of these texts, some, some of that we’ve covered on the podcast, some that we, that I just sort of know outside of the podcast in my own personal life, I definitely am finding new, like completely new information about them as I’m, you know, reading commentaries on it and reading my, like looking at the notes in the study bible and, and learning from you.
(3m 58s):
I’m like, oh, I, like, there’s a, there’s some some facts that I didn’t know that enriched my understanding of the text. And then there’s an element of just sort of like experiencing the text in a different way and relating to it in a different way. And, and maybe like, I knew everything, quote, you knew everything, but different things are sticking out to me or I’m making new and different connections from the text to my own life. And I think there’s also been an additional element of, by reading the whole, the whole book of Matthew from start to finish, but also not rushing through it. Like we didn’t read the whole book of Matthew over the course of, you know, three days a week.
(4m 40s):
Even we read it over the course of two months. I think that like, sitting in that, I feel like I was able to sort of like dip into and immerse myself more fully in that world because I was really like spending a lot of time rolling around in there rather than getting in or getting out. It reminds me of, you know, like if you’re doing a meditation practice, sometimes it takes like a few minutes to like to settle in, right? It’s like if you only meditate for two minutes, like that can be helpful in its own way, way, but it’s not the same as like doing a 10 or a 20 or a 30 minute meditation or, you know, you know, there’s all that sort of research around focus that like, every time you switch between tasks or apps, it takes your brain a little bit of time to like reorient yourself.
(5m 28s):
And so like, you know, as a, as a, you’re a writer Shay, you know, like you can’t write a novel in spurts of, oh, you, maybe you could, but like writing a novel in spurts of five minutes is gonna be different than like really being able to sort of like sink in and absorb. Or if you’re a reader, even like when you’re like on your, when you’re like on the, the couch with a book for like hours on a, you know, on a rainy day that feels different than reading for, you know, five, 10 minutes on the subway to and from work. They’re like, they’re both interesting. But I like, I I, so I noticed that sort of like, sense of immersion in the text, which I really appreciated. Yeah. And I, I think what you said is so interesting, right?
(6m 8s):
Because we, I’ve been talking with some folks who are, who are wanting to, to start spiritual rituals and, and they’re feeling this weight of, I don’t know where to start. I don’t have the perfect amount of time. And so I think that there’s like a yes and to your five minutes a day, right? Like it’s so like, you’re right, you, you could totally write a novel in five minutes a day and also at some point you’re probably gonna have to sink deeply into it for hours at a time in order to revise, to fix the story, et cetera. And also, if you don’t spend the five minutes a day or whatever it is that will take you to get started, you’re never gonna have the novel to revise. And I think that that’s the same with spiritual practices, right?
(6m 49s):
Yeah. If You wait until you have the perfect hour of total silence when no one else is in the house, and you have the fancy candle and the right matches and the whatever it is that you tell yourself you really need in order to pray or to meditate, like you’re just never gonna do it. And so that, that tension of you gotta just dive in and also at some point in the diving in, what does it take for you to have a more settled and in-depth practice? Yeah. You know, I really enjoy those, you know, days where I am cuddled up on the couch reading a book for hours. But pretty much every book that I’ve ever spent done that with, I first like impulse bought the book and then like immediately opened it and read just for five minutes, right?
(7m 34s):
And then, and then I had to like move on with my life. And it’s like oftentimes I like do a few, like many blocks of reading in shorter spurts before, like, I, I, the, the, the story starts to like draw me in and then, And I get, I’m in the prac, I get into the habit of reading, you know, I start to like connect with the characters more. I get excited about the story and then I can sort of like settle in deeper. And so like, if you have a, if you don’t read the Bible at all currently or you haven’t read the Bible in years, the Bible feels scary. You don’t, like, you don’t have to, you know, spend hours every day reading the Bible. Like, don’t do that. But like, if you have a question about like, oh, I wonder what that story that I always like really, you know, enjoyed or appreciated or thought was weird or didn’t like, like I went to what was going on there.
(8m 22s):
Like, you can start right now looking for answers to those questions. And then he always say, should I continue to, to follow your curiosity? This was like a good time to plug, like, as this, as this series is wrapping up, if you want to like learn how to do this sort of work, we have like a whole self-paced course called journeying to the Bible that like walks you through the process that we did with Matthew so that you can do it on your own for any book or any passage or any story in the Bible, you can find that and others at Queer Theology dot com slash resources. Alright, let’s do it. We, let’s do our, are looking at chapters 26 through 28.
(9m 4s):
These are the last four chapters, three chapters Math Never been My Strong Suit of the Gospel of Matthew. We are still in holy week. We’re actually just at Wednesday. So we, we the entire like long, long podcast that we did last week was Monday and Tuesday chapter 26 starts Wednesday. Here’s some things you should know as we dive in. The gospel of Matthew super, super closely follows Mark’s story. Matthew adds a couple of things. He adds the story of the fate of Judas, which we’ll get to in a little bit.
(9m 45s):
And the guard at the tomb, which we’ll talk more about otherwise, pretty much this is the same as Mark in the Beginning of Matthew 26. Jesus pretty much concludes his teaching ministry, even though he does continue to speak. There are no more like speeches or discourses like we are now just heading towards The End, which I found really fascinating. I don’t know that I had ever like picked that up before until seeing that really spelled out in the commentary. And I thought, oh, that’s a really interesting, a really interesting note. Yeah. Another thing to notice is that Matthew is the first narrative to specify Passover as the time when, when Jesus’s passion occurs.
(10m 32s):
And this is important only because during this time the Roman governor regularly came to Jerusalem with extra troops in case there was an attempted uprising. And so this strikes me as a really strategic emphasis on Matthew’s part to really contrast the idea of two kingdoms once again, right? Rome comes to quash the oppressed, Jesus comes to free them. And so setting all of this in a historical context of an actual celebration that happened when we know things that happened politically around that celebration feels really important to name and to note. Yeah. You might not know the answer to this, so it’s okay if you don’t, but do you know, like was there, was there connections to Jesus being executed around Passover in like the letter in, in earlier letters?
(11m 25s):
Or is this like the first ever written down connection between like, crucifixion, resurrection and Passover? I don’t know. My sense would be that this is the first Okay. But I would have to check the letters and, and the only reason I say that, my sense is that it’d be the first is because Paul’s letters tend to not really tell any narrative stories, right? Yeah. That they’re all about like, this is what Jesus taught, not anything about this is what happened. Yeah. I guess I was like wondering like, is is he talking about Jesus as like the Passover lamb or like the new sacrifice or like when he was, you know, but it, it’s, it’s, it sounds like answers.
(12m 5s):
I don’t know, which I think is a great thing to model that like sometimes we have to take notes of like, and then, and then I like, like I, there’s, I was curious about that, but like you listening at home, like might not be curious about that. So like, if you’re curious about that, like, don’t go Google it, but I’m, but after we’ve finished recording this, like I I might go Google it. I think that is one of the things that I really appreciate about, like exploring the world of the Bible is like we all get to sort of like pull out the threads that interest us. So yeah. Thanks for humor me. Yeah. Yeah. I also wanna say upfront that this narrative is really, really tricky to talk about because Matthew’s polemic against Jewish religious leaders is overt and it’s loud, it’s not as loud as in loud the Gospel of John, but it’s still loud.
(12m 51s):
Yeah. And that has su subsequently been used in really, really horrific ways and still continues to be. And so I just wanna note that, that as we’re talking about this, it’s complicated ground to talk about and also say that it’s really clear that by the time of this writing, that even though Matthew’s audience might have been mostly composed of people who still consider themselves Jewish, there’s definitely strong tension. There’s hostility between the church and the synagogue. Matthew uses the language of synagogue in a, throughout his gospel in a really like to mean nefarious things.
(13m 36s):
And the author of Matthew is really trying to make it appear that Jewish religious leaders are responsible for Jesus’ death. And so like it just feels important to name that upfront that, and that it doesn’t do us any good to try to explain that away or say that’s not really what the text meant, or that’s not really what the text did. Like that’s, that’s what he’s trying to do. And so I think we just have to own that and, and then talk about, like, we can talk, we can talk lots of things around like why he might have done that and how we can handle it responsibly. But I think that we first have to just like name that that is what hap what is happening.
(14m 18s):
Yeah. Oh man. That feels like to make a modern connection of like, we can’t, like, as a white person, I like can’t effectively confront racism if I’m like unable to recognize like the times in which I like do or say like racist shit or like have in my past done or said racist shit, right? That like, it, like it sort of, we have to sort of like look at it with sort of like an unflinching honesty and then decide like, okay, like where do we go from here? Yeah. So those kind of opening statements, we head into this text this Wednesday text with a, a story of the anointing of Jesus and this woman who remains anonymous pours super expensive perfume on Jesus’s head.
(15m 4s):
And I found that this was really interesting. I don’t know that I had like really, I, I think this is another moment where the way that we’re often taught about these stories right? Is that we collapse all of the gospels together. And so like any kind of anointing story just becomes like this wash for me of like, there was a woman who cried and anointed and, and like cried on Jesus’s feet and wiped him with her hair. And then there was this other story of Jesus being anointed by a woman. And like in our minds they just kind of become the same narrative. And so like, it’s important to note that this is not that narrative, that this is not Mary Magdalene, this is a, this is an anonymous woman, we don’t know who this woman was, and she pours expensive perfume on Jesus’s head.
(15m 50s):
And this is not an anointing for office. So like, this isn’t, this isn’t anything about Jesus’s priesthood or king hood. This is a pre preparation for burial. And the other thing that I had never noticed before is that in Matthew’s gospel, we’re gonna jump ahead, the women don’t come to the tomb to anoint Jesus as they do in some of the other gospels. They come to sit vigil, which we’ll talk about. But it’s already been done. The Jesus’s anointing has already been done by this anonymous woman prior to his death. And so it doesn’t get repeated, which I found to be just the most fascinating.
(16m 30s):
This is a moment for me where like that piqued my curiosity. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is a really beautiful and fascinating narrative. Yeah. And so in this story then we have a comment where, you know, people are, are pissed that this woman has spent, has poured this expensive perfume on Jesus’ head. And Jesus says, the poor you will always have with you, which has now become this like often debated quote. And people say like, that means that we don’t have to do anything to alleviate poverty. Like we can just ignore it because we’re not gonna be able to do anything about it anyway. And other people say, well, Jesus didn’t really mean that. And again, this is a moment where you like have to know some of the context.
(17m 12s):
And Jesus is alluding to Deuteronomy 1511, which says, poor persons will never disappear from the earth. That’s why I’m giving you this command. You must open your hand generously to your fellow Israelites, to the needy among you and to the poor who live with you in your land, which is part of an entire chapter about the year of Jubilee. And so I think that’s important to note because like we miss that, but Matthew’s audience totally would’ve known that reference. They would’ve picked it up. And so we have then this story of extravagant love of a woman and how in some ways she’s the only one who really seems to know what’s going on in preparing Jesus for his burial.
(17m 56s):
But then we also have, even in the midst of this moment where people are being crabby about the perfume, Jesus is pointing them toward justice that this statement about the poor you will always have with you wasn’t a, so we don’t have to care about them. It’s like, yeah. So like, again, your call to discipleship is to do something about the people living in poverty. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that that’s, that start of that sentence can be completed in so many different ways and it like, it’s so important that we like play it out and, and, and catch these references. This reminds me again how, you know, I feel like a broken record on this. Like, it’s like, it’s like reading Shakespeare where you like, if you don’t do some research, you like, don’t catch all the references and sometimes you like might actually walk away with the opposite impression because those references like really change so much about this.
(18m 48s):
And so I think like, you know, there’s something there about like, we ha like is our job to take care of folks and we’re like, whether or not we ever eradicate poverty or not, like that doesn’t mean we like stop trying. Yeah. And I think, I think that gets back to our conversation before about like this kind of, we focus on the here and now while we also look to the future and, and that it’s like we, we don’t not do anything just because we can’t have everything that we want or everything that we dream of right away. Like we still have to do the work even if it’s incremental and slower than we’d like. Yeah. And I think that there’s like something about this, this pairing right, of this like extravagant gesture and this like expensive perfume and sort of like the poorer will always be with you, but like, and also to keep working towards it that it’s like, I don’t know there, it like in all likelihood, like we’re not going to totally eradicate global poverty in my lifetime.
(19m 51s):
Right? Like, I can be a realist, right. And say that like, like, that’s probably not gonna happen. I, you know, and also like what does it mean to like act as if it is possible to believe that that is possible and then also to sort of like do some things that usher that in, right? Like this sort of like anointing with exp expensive oil. And I think that there’s a difference, right? Like it’s expensive, but it’s not like, you know, 80% of the city of Los Angeles police, like city, city budget going to police, right? Like it’s a symbol, it’s like a symbolic, but part of it is it’s both expensive but it’s also somewhat symbolic, right? So it’s not like we should just like not care if like we waste money, but that like sometimes like it’s okay to like live extravagantly to believe that more possible.
(20m 40s):
And So just sort of like live into that tension of like, yes. Yes. And So we move from this like really extravagant story of the woman anointing Jesus for burial into Judas getting paid to portray Jesus. And Matthew quotes the sum of, you know, this 30 pieces of silver, which is from Zacharia 1112 through 13, which says that 30 pieces ofer silver is the shepherd’s wages. And so it’s like this poultry sum and it’s designed to be in contrast to the story of the woman, right? Like Jude, Judas accepts nothing to betray while the anonymous woman gives everything to honor, which I find a really striking image.
(21m 29s):
Yeah. It reminds me also of, I feel like some of, there’s like, you know, like if you try to save your soul, you’ll lose it. You in order to like save your soul, you know, in order to save your soul you have to like lose it. Like there’s just sort of like this like yeah. That that like, you know, people sacrifice their integrity, throw people under the bus, let go in search of power. And even like, even when they actually get like millions or billions of dollars, it’s still I think like costs them more than it’s worth. Yeah. And so I like I that just this, this object lesson of like you, like you might seem like it might, you might feel like you’re getting a lot in the moment, but it’s actually just sort of like a, a meager payout for, you know, not ushering it like working towards the kingdom of God.
(22m 22s):
And that enters us into day four Thursday. So we’re trucking right? A lot. And so d day four Thursday begins with the disciples preparing for Passover. And so they needed to locate a place within Jerusalem, which was the only legitimate location for eating the Passover meal. They needed to search the room for leave and remove anything, including crumbs that might contain yeast, obtain the lamb, have it ritually, slaughtered by the priest in the temple, roast the lamb and prepare it with necessary items. And so all of this is like when it talks about them trying to like find a room, you know, they’re trying to do all of this as outsiders to the community and to prepare all of this and to do it right in a space that wasn’t their home.
(23m 6s):
And so this then becomes the backdrop for what Christians now term the last supper, but is them also preparing for this meal that was really imp important in their, their religious tradition. Yeah. And it feels important to draw a distinction between the Passover meal that Jesus is eating, that Jesus and disciples are eating that like other Jews at this time would’ve been eating and Passover seders, which did not exist at the time because pass crusaders take the place of the temple sacrifices after the destruction of the temple. Right? When there is no lamour, there’s no longer a temple to sacrifice to.
(23m 49s):
That is sort of like we remem like one of the parts of the Seder. It’s, it’s to tell the story of the exodus, but also part of it’s to remember the temple sacrifices, right? And so like Jesus observed Passover, but in a wildly different way than modern Jews are observing Passover. Like you were saying, you like going the temple and, and slaughtering lambs for sacrifice. And so like it’s, it feels very inauthentic to say like, oh, I want to celebrate, I’m a Christian And I wanna stay Christian, but I want to celebrate Passover like modern Passover or I don’t wanna say Passover at all because like that’s what Jesus did. And it’s like, no, like that is not what Jesus was doing.
(24m 31s):
And Passover as it is currently celebrated was sort of a, a later development. Yeah. And so I, this feels like a great time to also talk about the practice of Christian seders. Yes. Which, you know, you And I have gotten into some, some kerfuffles on the interwebs about basically saying that like you can’t, you cannot host, I mean you can, but it’s like not good of you to host a Christian Seder that like, that doesn’t exist. That it’s appropriation of the Jewish tradition. That it’s not even like accurate to what Jesus would have been doing.
(25m 12s):
It’s just like, it’s just not a good idea. And so then people will always come back with, but I was once invited to go to Passover with my Jewish friends and it’s like, that is a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I have also been invited to Passover with my Jewish friends. Yeah. Like you hosting a Christian Seder in your church with no Jewish people present is not the same thing as you as a Christian with the invitation of a Jewish person going to observe a Seder dinner or Seder service, like in the way that they do it and not a not bringing your Jesus and putting him into it or onto it.
(25m 58s):
Yeah. It like, it kind of reminds me of also like, you know, it’s like sometimes you get invited to your friend’s birthday party, right? And like you go to celebrate them and their birthday, but it’s like not your birthday and you do it because like you’re a good friend. So I think also it’s like, it’s even it’s, it’s about like if you’re invited to a friend Seder and you’re celebrating like with them to celebrate them, awesome. It’s not about being like, oh, I want to like celebrate Passover to feel more connected to Jesus, so let me go like seek out a Seder at a synagogue or haad as like, yeah. Like be this, like this is like so that, so that sort like take it on as your own spiritual practice.
(26m 38s):
And I think this is important because like the Eucharist like is kind of like, like if anything is gonna be Christian Seder, right? It’s the Eucharist. Like we have like Christianity has developed like its own tradition around wine, around sacrifice, around bread that has its own like unique and specifically Christian origin and flavor that like is inspired by this but like is like distinctly Christian as opposed to a, a Jewish practice and especially a Jewish practice that came into existence like post it’s, it’s split with Christianity.
(27m 19s):
You know, in our, our workshop on rituals for resistance, one of the things that we talk about is like when you are in a space of you start to feel disconnected from your own spiritual practice for some reason, like it’s, it’s just, it’s not working for you anymore. And you start to try to find other spiritual practices that do feel right, that do reconnect you, that one of the things that it, that people often do is like, what are things outside of my tradition that I can try out? And one of the things that we talk about in that workshop is that like actually probably anything that you want to try out from another tradition already exists within your own tradition.
(28m 2s):
You just have to find it, right? Like praying with beads exists in so many different religious traditions. Yeah. So you don’t have to actually go out and buy a Buddhist set of mala beads, right? Like you can pray the rosary or you can find another, there are like anglican beads, right? There are all of these different ways of praying with beads. And so this also feels like a moment for if part of what you’re longing for or hungry for is a different way of connecting to figure out what in your own tradition maybe that hasn’t been practiced in a really long time, but that you can go to Yeah.
(28m 42s):
And pull out and try in order to not appropriate from other traditions. Yeah. I think like regardless of what your religion or spiritual practice like spiritual school is, like if you like candles, there’s something for you if you like incense or smells, there’s something for you if you like, like, you know, the changing of like the, the wa waxing and waning of the sun over the course of the year. Like there’s something for you there. Yeah. I I I really appreciate that perspective. If you want to like, if the, you don’t really have spiritual practices, the ones that you do feel stale or you’re just like wanting to connect more with a divine in a way that feels like you and also queer and also connected check out ritual tools for resistance and resilience is that Queer Theology com slash virtuals.
(29m 31s):
So in this narrative then where they’re having this Passover dinner, we do then get a narrative where Jesus petrick predicts his betrayal, he inaugurates the Eucharist. And this is, this is one of those interesting things, right? That the Eucharist, the, the earliest form of the language around it and even some of the tradition was in Paul in First Corinthians. That’s kind of the first place that we have it. And so by the time Matthew is written, this has already become something that Christians do when they gather together. But it’s a, it’s, but all we have at this point is language around what Jesus did at this dinner.
(30m 18s):
And then so the Matthew takes almost like the liturgy and puts it back into the story and creates a story around it. And so this is another moment where we have this, this fascinating mashup of, of traditions that are getting formed and fleshed out and that we have this picture then when we read First Corinthians of what this last meal looked like, but the last meal was created because of the language in first Corinthians. The two can’t exist really. Yeah. Like that one doesn’t exist separate from the other. And so I think that’s a fascinating thing. I think it’s important to note and to pay attention to.
(30m 60s):
And it’s also just, I I find it nerdily Interesting. Yeah. And I, this is I think not unique to Christianity that often in religion and spirituality, like sacred stories get developed to sort of like explain why things are the way they already are. So like looking at the story of, you know, in particular Genesis two, right? Of like, and Genesis two and Genesis three of the sort of expulsion from the garden. It’s like why, like why does life’s like, why is life hard? Why does it like hurt? That’s sort of like a big sort of like cosmic question that gets answered in this sort of story of Adam and Eve and the, the apple and the the serpent, the the deceiver.
(31m 42s):
But also on a, on a more spiritual practices level, you know, there’s lots of discussion around like, do like Jewish people observe the Sabbath because it’s commanded to in the Bible or like, is are the stories in the Bible there? Because as a practice that was already developing and like God resting on the seventh day, like was this story was told and included that because, because of this practice that was already happening, right? So like similarly, a lot of these Christians things are also that we have these like snippets of claims or stories or theological beliefs that then get sort of like fleshed out into story form. And I think like stories like grip us in a way that like creeds are also powerful in their own way, but like a, a story you can sort of like live in and, and explore.
(32m 32s):
And so I think that that there’s power in stories is something that like an impulse like humans have always done to say like, what, like what happened? What actually happened? What do we imagine happened? What might have happened to sort of like make meaning of our lives? So after dinner, Jesus takes the disciples to the Mount of Olives, Jesus prays and is arrested the small group of disciples that are mentioned here as the ones that he takes apart with him while he prays. Same group that was present at the transfiguration, which feels important to note. And that Jesus’ three times of praying form a contrast to the denials of Peter who sleeps instead of praying.
(33m 20s):
And it reminds me of the stories we talked last week about being ready, right? That like, yeah, part of what enables Jesus to be ready for what’s coming is this time that he spends connecting with the divine, whereas Peter falls asleep and then when the shit hits the fan, like he’s not prepared because he hasn’t done any of that work. And I, I think just think that’s really interesting. Yeah. You know, like it’s lent right now. And so like I’ve been talking a lot about like rituals and spiritual practices and how like a lot of times it’s like kind of boring, right? Like I shared about how in the past I’ve like gone to a church and sat in the empty sanctuary and like read the same passage us from the prophets and said the same sort of like structured prayer over and over and over again like every day.
(34m 7s):
And like how that’s like kind of boring but then like prepares you to, to do the hard work. And I, I’ve been thinking about that again, like as we’re back in lunch again, I’ve been sort of like recommitting to like a daily prayer practice And I, you know, I have a DH adhd, like I like know that meditation is like good for me, but like, oh my god, to like sit and like sit still for 10 minutes is like so hard that I’ve actually been finding that like having a like, like a prayer or a blessing or something like that or reading that’s like someone else has figured out what I should, what I should do like helps me get into the, into the groove.
(34m 48s):
So like every morning I like read the same prayer and like somehow even if it takes me 10 minutes to to, to go through all the readings, that feels easier than just like sitting for 10 minutes. And then what I find is that like after that I am sort of still, I, I I’m, I’m able to sit in silence for, you know, five, 10 minutes if I want to. But also that there’s something about like the prayers and blessings that I’m currently reading involve a lot of talk about, you know, justice and also like forgiveness and, and accountability and like, I don’t know, I like, I I think like being kind of fronted with that every day then like makes me more aware of like, you know, someone, someone shared like a little bit of like ways in which like they, I had hurt their feelings recently and like, I think that like since we’re like smacked out, out in the middle of lent when I like got that text message like, oh, every day I’ve been reading these prayers and blessings about accountability and justice and forgiveness, it now feels harder to like ignore this text message or like explain a what, like justify in my head I could come up with like all the reasons why I did the thing that I did, right.
(35m 56s):
And it’s like, oh man, like I wanna do that. But like I’ve spent the past like 20 days like reading the same like prayer and blessing over and over and over again about like justice and compassion and forgiveness and like, you know, a sort of like beloved community. And so now I’m like, oh, like I gotta, like this is the moment where I put my money where my mouth is And I like, I think that you can be a moral and take accountability for your actions type of person without religion. Like, and also like having some daily reminders or some regular reminders I think like helps you to do the hard work. Whether it’s something like taking accountability when you hurt someone’s feelings or like being prepared to go toe to toe with like the Roman authorities in Jesus’ time, like white nationalism in our current and fascism in our current time.
(36m 45s):
Like we need like is like, you’re not gonna go from zero to resisting fascism. You need some like in-between points to, to steal you for that. Yeah. So Judas then comes with temple guards and calls Jesus the outsider’s term rabbi instead of the insider’s term Lord. Which I find really fascinating because it strikes me as like it makes sense that that Judas would call Jesus rabbi because if he called him Lord, it would’ve set Judas apart as one guilty of treason, right. And implicated him in the whole thing that he is trying to set Jesus up for.
(37m 26s):
But once again, it’s this this sense of like who’s in, who’s out in, in, in the way of like looking at like where do your allegiances lie? Yeah. Whose kingdom are you a part of? Who are you claiming as Lord? Which I, I find really, really interesting. Yeah. And then one of the disciples, and in Matthew it’s not specifically named as Peter. So again we have things where it, things change. The narrative has changed over the course of time. One of the disciples wields a sword and Jesus makes three points the way of nonviolence that Jesus is not being arrested against his will, that he goes willingly and that the scriptures must be fulfilled.
(38m 9s):
Which isn’t to say that these are prophecies, but that they are the will of God to which Jesus will submit. And then it’s at this moment that all of the disciples abandon him except for Peter. We see none of them again until after the resurrection. So again, this is a place where Matthew is different than some of the other gospels, right? In some of the other gospels, the beloved disciple or some of the Marys are present at the cross. That is not the case in Matthew’s gospel. Everyone’s just gone. The only time we’re gonna see Peter from here on out is when he denies Jesus three times and then he disappears too. So I think that like all of this is, is still really important.
(38m 51s):
Y’all, we are still in chapter 26 and we’re trucking along in this podcast in 26 55. The word that’s used is bandit. It’s a word that Josephus who is a historian uses for terrorists and freedom fighters who offer armed resistance to Roman occupation. So they’re talking about Jesus being arrested as a bandit, as someone who is part of this terrorist community as a freedom fighter. Yeah. We, we move from the scene in Jesus being arrested to the trial with Caiaphas, the high priest.
(39m 32s):
This is definitely a hundred percent written as a piece of polemic. The author of Matthew is making these religious leaders out to be the bad guys very much saying that they are even violating their own tradition in the condemnation of Jesus with the high priest tearing his garments. This is probably also like not how any of this worked that they wouldn’t have had, they definitely wouldn’t have had power to like sentence Jesus to death, which is why Matthew then sends Jesus to Pilate. But I think like in general, this type of scene wouldn’t have happened. And so I think it’s really important to ask like why might this scene exist?
(40m 12s):
What do we do with it? I don’t know if you have any answers Brian, Or you just sit with that. Yeah, I mean I, i I don’t know if I have any answers. So like a few years ago I was on TikTok And I saw this creator Millie, not so Vanilli, who’s a Jewish woman who we ended up having on the podcast last May. I like Van boy so hard, she’s so great. But she, someone asked, in one of her comments, she made a video responding to like, is it possible to like separate Christianity from antisemitism? And she very generously said like, yes, I think so, but it like, it’s gonna take a lot of work and y’all have to do the work.
(40m 52s):
And I remember being like, oh that is, that is quite generous of you because I think it, I have seen people say like, no, it is not possible that like at its core Christianity, like, it’s like part of the founding myth of Christianity is anti-Semitism. And so like I think like I, like I also like, I sort of like wanted, I sort of like wanted to believe Millie, right? That it is like that that Christianity is not inherently anti-Semitic. That like Jesus was doing a, like a good thing. He was doing a different thing than like some of the other religious leaders at his time. Lots of people were doing different things and like they went different directions, but it doesn’t, for us in the year of our Lord 2023 does not have to be an, an antisemitic. And so I, I think it is incumbent upon people who want to remain Christian to sort of like really stare this text down and be like, like you were saying, like why mo scene exist and and what do we do with it?
(41m 43s):
And I think it’s also important for folks who don’t want to remain Christian, But we like raised Christian or at least we’re like not raised anything else and like who celebrate Christmas even if it’s in a secular sort of way to really, or like anyone who’s just like not Jewish in general because like anti-Semitism permeates our culture so much to really sit with like what messages about Jews in general. She was religious leaders in particular Jewish law, like Jewish motivations have like permeated you and even just like saying I’m no longer a Christian does not necessarily cure you of like Christianity fueled antisemitism.
(42m 27s):
So it feels really important to sort of like sit, like sit with that and do some examination around that because so much of, so much of what everyday ordinary people religion or not religious in America think about Judaism is informed by Christianity and in particular like sort of like this version of Christianity, which really sets out to make Jews the ultimate bad guys. Yeah. And I think this is, this is a slightly different direction, but also, you know, just because you’ve left evangelicalism doesn’t mean evangelicalism has left you. And so like even, And I think that that’s another, you know, thing that we run into lots of times of like people rejecting, rejecting certain things, but like not having actually done the work to free themselves of the kind of indoctrination that they received as evangelicals.
(43m 18s):
And so I think that like that’s all part of the work. Antisemitism is definitely part of what you got indoctrinated with, but there’s there’s more, there’s more than just anti-Semitism. Yeah. And if you, and if you, if you are calling your, the evangelical leaders pharisees as like a derogatory term, like guess what you’re doing? You’re doing an evangelical anti-Semitism and so like cut, cut that out. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we, we move from the trial with Caiaphas to Peter’s denial. People in the the courtyard area ask Peter three times if he’s with Jesus, he says no, his denials kind of like we said earlier, are in opposition to Jesus’ testimonies and prayers.
(44m 1s):
One of the things that I found interesting about this is that scholars think that this definitely happened because no one would have fabricated a story about such an important leader in the early church failing in this way. So like the fact that this story exists that, that Peter denied people think that it, that it definitely happened, which I find really interesting. Yeah, I don’t know if I entirely buy that, but I, but it definitely, it definitely feels like anything that gets put in the gospels that like would have raised red flags probably is closer to true because like why would you put something in that would hurt your already struggling and young community?
(44m 43s):
And so I think this is yeah, one of them. We’ll talk about another when we hit the resurrection. I was just thinking that. Yes. Okay, now we are day five, day five begins, we have Jesus and Pilate, Pilate is the Roman governor. He’s presented as someone who has real political power as opposed to the religious leaders. And we, we have this moment where like moment Jesus goes before Pilate and then there’s an inset of Judas. So like Jesus goes to Pilate and then we get the story of what happened to Judas. And Judas seems to do all of the right things after he turns Jesus over.
(45m 25s):
He’s sorry, he returns the money that he was given, he acknowledges Jesus’s innocence. But the language one of the commentaries said is really interesting because Judas repentance is the language used there is like regret, repent change one’s mind in contrast to the terms that Matthew uses for discipleship, which are much stronger, which is like to be converted and to reorient one’s life. And it’s used to contrast two people, one who’s all in even when he gets it wrong and one who wasn’t. And I think that that’s really important, right? That there are times when we mess up and that we can seem to do all of the right things, right?
(46m 6s):
We can apologize, we can say that we got it wrong. We can even, you know, do some kind of small act of reparation. But if we don’t actually fundamentally change our lives, if we don’t reorient ourselves, if we’re not converted, like we’re just gonna continue to do the same things. I mean it feels like that’s important and for white folks in any anti-racism work for Christian folks in working in solidarity with Jewish folks like all of these things, like this is a discipleship means something much bigger than just saying you’re sorry and kind of walking away. Yeah. That distinction between changing your mind and changing your life feels really powerful for me.
(46m 51s):
Yeah. Okay, now we’re back to pilot. So we have this like insert then back to pilot pilot’s question is clearly a political charge, treason or rebellion against Rome. I, I’m gonna kind of speed through all of some of this. Like the idea that that pilot would release a prisoner during this time, probably not true, seems really, really unlikely historically. But instead the authors trying to highlight that this is like again, a conflict of two kingdoms. Even the language that they’re using for bar sabas, right? Like who is the son of the father? The author of Matthew is saying Jesus. But again, Yeah, Now we’ve got the worst of the polemic.
(47m 36s):
So the fate of Jesus being accepted by the Jewish people as a crowd and Pilate being absolved, it’s pure propaganda. It, we just have to name that this is pure propaganda coming from the author of Matthew. I do think it’s important to note, not to forgive it, but that like the author of Matthew sees the destruction of the temple that has already happened when Matthew is writing as the punishment that has already been meted out for denying Jesus, which is like not helpful or good, but it, but I think it is important to note that like the author of Matthew doesn’t fall into the trap of proclaiming judgment on Jewish people for generations upon generations like the gospel of John does.
(48m 24s):
So like, I just wanna note that like that again, even within these narratives, like people are doing different things and that John who now by the time the gospel of John is written, those folks are like not at all connected to Judaism anymore. And like his polemic against the Jewish people has them saying like not only do we accept blame, but like we will accept blame for generations down the line. Whereas Matthew is like, we accept blame, but like we’ve already gotten our punishment. So in Matthew’s mind that’s, it’s already all been done. Which I think again is like, not to say that that’s excusing that or that that was a good thing to say, but I do think like he’s doing something different here, which feels important to pull out as we’re like examining what these gospels are saying that are different for one another.
(49m 15s):
Yeah. And a lot of Jewish folks at the time were reflecting on the destruction of the temple and saying like, why did this happen? And like, did we do that? And I think like one of the, one of the projects of modern Judaism is to look back and be like, well maybe like, maybe like it wasn’t our fault that like the Jews don’t think like it’s like the temple got destroyed because we were actually Jesus. But there like there is a tradition within Judaism of seeing the destruction of the temple as like a result of, I think it’s like, you know, like baseless hatred or like squabbling amongst, there’s like there, there’s some reason in traditional given and over time people have questioned that to be like, maybe it’s like actually not our fault that we shouldn’t like blame ourselves. Like maybe like Rome was Rome and like Rome was being Rome and like that’s, I like that’s why, that’s why it happened.
(50m 1s):
So I think that your, that distinction of like it being I think misguided but still sort of like this like one time historical thing rather than like an ongoing curse is important. This also to totally like bring us into modernity just reminds me of like cis gays and lesbians and bi folks who have like historically like the lines between cis queers and trans queers has been like blurry and bendy that like we’ve all just had been sort of like gender and sexuality outlaws together. Like we are are both are like cis queers have like seen as doing like gender wrong even though it’s like our, we we now modern like times conceive of it as like our sex lives and trans folks have been accused of like not just doing gender wrong but also sex wrong and like we’ve been like starting to get some rights and like things are getting like really, really, really scary for all LGBTQ plus people or gender sexual relational minorities, like whatever you wanna call it, right?
(51m 3s):
It’s getting really scary. Scary. And there are some LGB people who are saying like, no, no, no, no, no, no, not us. It’s the like those are the bad guys, those are the ones you want. We, we like Christians, we like America, we like Republicans, we like conservative capitalism values, we like capitalism, like we like sex puritanism. Like really sort of like sucking up to the empire that is America and saying like, we’re not like those queers and not, and those trans folks. And I think that like I see that happening here that Christians are like, shit, Rome is really powerful and they destroyed the temple and were really vulnerable.
(51m 51s):
And what if we try to say, no, no, no, no, no it’s not us, it’s them. Right? Like, and we, they write in like an absolute like of trying to absolve pilot of this, of saying like, don’t worry Rome, like we don’t blame you. It was definitely Rome. But they’re like, like there’s this, I think this really misguided attempt to say like, it’s okay, please don’t hurt us more. Why don’t you get mad at those people over there instead. Yeah. And we’re like, I think going back early to Judas, like I think like we like sold our soul for for 30 shekels. Like I think like, and we, we’ve been paying for ever since And I think even more so even more like immediately and viscerally and physically Jewish folks have been paying for ever since and it’s like, it’s messy And so like dear fucking queer people don’t, don’t do this shit.
(52m 45s):
Yeah. All right, now we’re heading, we’re heading on. Jesus has been condemned to death. Simon is compelled to carry Jesus’s cross. The only person named at the crucifixion in Matthew is Simon of Cyrene, which is an outsider and it emphasizes how Jesus has been abandoned by his own disciples. That someone else, someone not even from the community ends up carrying the cross. Jesus is crucified, he’s hung with common criminals. So like at this point it’s insult upon insult. He doesn’t even get to be hung with like other traitors and bandits. He’s just hung with random thieves.
(53m 27s):
There’s all of these sort of really extravagant, miraculous signs that happen in the gospel of Matthew. The thing to really pay attention to is that many of them echo the Exodus story, which I hadn’t really picked up before. So going back through as you, as you read about these wondrous signs that they’re echoing the Exodus story after Jesus dies, he’s buried not by relatives or disciples, but by Joseph of arimathea, burial of the dead. Especially by tho those killed, by oppressive governments hostile to the Jewish community to to bury the dead was considered an act of piety and much of Judaism.
(54m 8s):
And so Joseph Ameea does this and it’s also important to note that he’s buried in a known tomb in Matthew Joseph. He, he’s buried in Joseph’s own tomb, but Joseph was someone who is rich and had some clout. And so it’s important to note that because it, this wasn’t an unknown tomb that might later be mistaken or gotten wrong or oops, we can’t find him. This is all part of Matthew’s narrative of like, no, we know where they put the body. So that’s important. Then we have this narrative of the women keeping watch over the tomb again, remember they, they don’t come to anoint Jesus that’s already been done.
(54m 52s):
Instead it’s simply the two of them keep watch and it provides a continuity of watch. And I thought, I found that to be really interesting too, that like it’s two women, so it’s like two witnesses who are keeping constant vigil over this tomb so that there is like an eyewitness account but that none of the people who heard promises of the resurrection are present ’cause they’ve all run away and aren’t hiding. Which also feels interesting that we’ve got these women that are keeping watch, but none of the people who like have been told what was gonna happen.
(55m 32s):
They’re just gone. Yeah. All right. Now we got day six unique to Matthew. Again, we have some polemic against Jewish religious leaders. We have the setting of the guard and the ceiling of the tomb. This is only in Matthew and it’s probably to advance the charge apparently current in Matthew’s Jewish environments that the disciples stole the body. And so again, this is a moment where like not excusing it, but there is probably a reason that they’re putting all of this in because they’re fighting back against charges that the followers stole the body. And that that what they’re saying happened didn’t happen.
(56m 13s):
Now we move to move to day seven. We’ve got two Marys that discovered the tomb. The woman come to the tomb to continue their vigil, it important to witnesses and they see the risen Jesus. And even as the risen one, he bears the marks of his self-giving on the cross. One commentator put it as his permanent character and call to discipleship. I thought, Ooh, that is a, yeah, there is something there that is really, really powerful. We have the women becoming the first witnesses and the first tellers of the gospel.
(56m 53s):
And it’s also important to note that like the stories of the appearances of Jesus post resurrection between the gospels, they don’t match, they cannot be reconciled. Like they are just different stories. They’re not part of a single historical report. Like each of these authors is trying to do something different theologically. So like trying to just jam ’em all together doesn’t, it doesn’t do you any good. So don’t worry about the fact that they can’t be reconciled. That’s not the point. Yeah. But Matthew’s gospel, the women become agents of, of the gospel.
(57m 34s):
They’re the first tellers of the gospel. And they also become agents of reconciliation because Jesus tells them to go tell his brothers about his resurrection. And so suddenly now we have a change in language that Jesus is now calling them brothers. And he’s also saying, I know they all abandoned me, but like you go tell them I’m back. And I think that that’s really important and actually really beautiful too. Yeah. Then again, we have a little bit more polemic that the guards are bribed, and here’s something that I found fascinating. They take more money than Judas Scott, so it costs more money to suppress the resurrection than it did to get Jesus killed in the first place, which I found really interesting.
(58m 24s):
And Brian, I think goes back to your point about like selling our souls and, and do we end up doing more harm in the midst of things? Right? Like there’s something too about Yeah. Yeah. You know, it, we, we get, we get one win, but then like, what do we lose in not pushing for even more? Right? Like they, they maybe got a win in getting Jesus killed, but now they’re gonna like have to spend way more money and do a lot more work to suppress it if, if he’s been resurrected. Yeah. Then we’re, we’re almost to The End, and then we’ll kind of talk about what it all means. Then we get the great commission. So the disciples are back, they met in Galilee, which was a theological place.
(59m 7s):
The land of gentiles and outsiders. We get another mountain. It doesn’t matter where the mountain is ’cause it’s, it’s not a mountain, it’s a theological mountain, which I think is important. And we get Jesus coming to the disciples and there’s this beautiful line where it’s like the disciples were there and they believed, but, but some doubted and Mm. And that line has always struck me because like here we have this miraculous moment and they were still getting this line about doubt. And one of the commentaries was like, doubt in this context was not skepticism, but the risky wavering of the one who must decide, it’s not to perfect people or angels, but to a worshiping wavering community to whom the world mission is entrusted.
(59m 55s):
And it’s like, if that just isn’t all of it, right? Yeah. Like, Yeah, It’s not to perfect people. It’s not to angels, it’s not to the powerful, it’s not to, it’s not to anyone. Like, it’s to the messy and doubting and complicated and confused people that like the mission to go out and do all of this work is entrusted. And like that is both terrifying and also I think really meaningful. Yeah. Like, I don’t know if I have all of the answers. I don’t know if I’m a hundred percent certain about what I believe this is really scary. Oh my God. Like am my, like, is this gonna ruin my life?
(1h 0m 36s):
And also, like, I believe in this call and this cause and this mission and this group of people that are huddled around with me that I’m gonna like risk it all anyways, even in the midst of that doubt is profound. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, and it’s then the, like, the final piece of this entire gospel is, it’s only after all of this that now the disciples are given the authority to teach that they have now gone all in with their discipleship and now they’re the ones that are entrusted to carry on and to continue the mission. And again, like this isn’t, this isn’t just about like then going out and getting a bunch of people to pray or prayer.
(1h 1m 20s):
It’s like, no, you have to go out and recruit more people into this mission of discipleship, of yes, going against Rome, of centering the poor and the marginalized. Like that is the great commission, not this like go out and get a bunch of people to pray a prayer that they don’t even understand and dunk ’em in some water. Like that’s not, we’ve, we’ve like misunderstood the meaning of it. Like when Jesus says go out and make disciples, that’s what he’s saying. He’s like, you’ve now done this whole thing. You see what it costs you now go get other people to join too. And like, let’s do this work. And that’s, I, that to me is like the call that that continues on today.
(1h 2m 2s):
Like it’s, we are called to be disciples. We’re called to help other people be disciples, but it’s all around this work of bringing about the kingdom of God here and now. Oh my God. Amen. And that’s the gospel of Matthew. Its entirety. Did it the, do You, Brian, do you have any kind of closing thoughts and reflections as we Finish out? Yes. I mean this is a specific closing thought that’s like, not, doesn’t, doesn’t encompass the whole gospel in Matthew, but you just sort of like scurried right past, like, oh, by the way the accounts of the resurrection and the gospels don’t match are irreconcilable.
(1h 2m 42s):
And also like, it kind of doesn’t matter, which I think like, I appreciate you pointing out, it reminds me almost, I’ve told this story a few times on the podcast before, it reminds me like when I was a freshman in college, taking my first ever religion class and my professor kinda like you were like on his way to another point was like, oh, by the way, the exodus didn’t historically happen. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean? What do you mean? And so like, I think I just wanna acknowledge if you’re listening to this podcast and Shea saying like, oh, they, they don’t match and they aren’t reconciliable, which means like at like, probably none of them actually historically happened. And if that, if that set off like a record scratch in your brain, like what do you mean?
(1h 3m 27s):
Hey girl, I’ve been there. And also I think that like, I know you’ve said Shay, like I don’t know exactly what happened, but like clearly to, to you at least Shay, like clearly something happened around the crucifixion and what Christians have historically called the resurrection that like transformed these people and then transformed history. And like that is something that like you’re jazzed about. And so like Matthew’s retelling of it, the other retellings of it and various gospels and liturgy and letters, like, they’re all sort of like grappling with a combination of like what historically happened, but also what theologically happened.
(1h 4m 10s):
What does that mean for us? Especially in a time where there weren’t video cameras, we dunno exactly. Like what what literally happened, even if we did have a video camera. Like you sometimes you don’t even know for sure what quote unquote like what happened. And so like, it’s kind of like trying to make the, this is the moment, right of like the entirety of Jesus’ life and ministry and everything that they’ve been working on, everything they’ve been accomplishing together, everything they’ve been doing, and then the betrayal and then the crucifixion and like, and then like, and then what? And like, so like this is one of those answers to that question that I think like is a profound mystery and like there’s a, I think there’s a lot of value and faithfulness in saying like, we don’t know exactly what happened and that, like perhaps figuring out the literal historical truth was not important to the earliest Christians because like they compiled contradictory accounts in their canonized bible.
(1h 5m 15s):
And so like that perhaps the answer is like somewhere in between or amongst or in the synergy of them altogether or in the questioning or in the trying to make sense of it for us just as it was for them. And I again, like maybe this, maybe, maybe this is a whole thought for the whole, for the whole podcast that like, like as we look sort of like look at Matthew in its entirety, that like, I think the process of looking for the answers and asking the questions is like just as important as sort of like, like the, the the like where, like the, the places that you land or, or what those answers end up being and that, you know, first Thessalonian is one of my favorite verses like test everything Hal fast to that, which is good.
(1h 6m 9s):
Like this process of like diving into scripture and saying like, what happened, what a scholars think happened, what do I think happened? What does this mean to like, what did this mean to them? Then what does this mean to me now? Like how does this become not like this isn’t a textbook, right? This is a like a sacred text. And so like how does this inform our sacred communities and like our values driven lives today? Think like that is, that’s like the question of the gospel of Matthew. That’s the question of the Bible. That’s the question of Christianity. That’s the question of this podcast. And so like, I’m just excited to like continue to be asking these questions with you, Shane, and, and unafraid to ask them and to pull up the threads and see where they lead and to be sort of doing that with y’all listening and that are part of our like, listening community and our online communities and yeah.
(1h 6m 58s):
So I guess that’s my sort of concluding thought. Yeah. And I, And I think what comes up for me, as you say all of that is that for me, all of this questioning and all of these conversations that we’re having and all of the ways that we dive into these texts are all then to leave us with the question, how then shall we live? Right? It doesn’t actually do us any good to bicker about what actually happened and case for Christ it out. And you know, even to talk about like the folks that are like, well, if the Bible’s infallible, we don’t have any true accountant of the resurrection.
(1h 7m 39s):
It’s like, honey, we don’t have any true account of the resurrection anyway. Not the point. Or like to say that, you know, well, if Jesus didn’t raise from the dead, then all of our faith is worth nothing and, and I’m not gonna be a Christian anymore. Or like, if there is no hell, then, then why do I believe in God? I, I think all of those questions, right, are really important ones to, to answer because they all come back to me to like, okay, then like, how are you gonna live? Like whatever you believe about any of these things, what does that look like in your day-to-day life? How do you treat other people? How, how are you in community? What are you being called to, what are you doing?
(1h 8m 20s):
And I think that that is the question of Matthew of like, great, all of this happened. What does discipleship look like? How are you going to live in the midst of Rome? How are you going to be a follower? How are you called to this community? What are you going to do with your life? Amen And amen and amen. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.
The post Throwback: The End. Or is it? Matthew 26-28 appeared first on Queer Theology.
1 hr 8 min
September 21, 2025The Devil and His Many Names
What was your upbringing regarding your belief in Satan or the Devil? How were you taught (or scared) growing up about the fallen angel, the demon, the serpent, Beelzebub, and the many other names? In this throwback episode, we will discover where our idea of Demon or Satan comes from and see how your beliefs or ideas about the devil line up with what scripture says.
Satan in the Hebrew Bible: Numbers 22:22
Satan in the Garden of Eden as the serpent: Ezekiel 28:12-19
Where the term “fallen archangel” come from: Isaiah 14:12
Pop-cultural resources about The Devil:
Inferno by Dante Aligheri
Paradise Lost by John Milton
The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer
Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis
A few images depicting Satan
Florence Baptistry mural
Detail of Satan from Hans Memling’s Triptych of Earthly Vanity and Divine Salvation
Devilish propaganda
William Blake’s depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost

Resources:
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
(10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hey Friends, and welcome back to Queer Theology Podcast. You know, we’ve been doing this work for a really long time and over the years we’ve amassed just a trove of episodes. And so we are gonna throw it back today to one of our favorite episodes, which is part of a larger series, which is called The Scary Things Series, scary Things You Might Have Learned in Church.
(53s):
And today’s episode is The Devil and His Many Names we’ve found from lots of talking to lots of folks over the years that a lot of people are really afraid of Satan and the devil and demons and have heard a lot of different things about those entities. And so we wanted to tackle them and talk about them and talk about why you might not need to find them. So scary. So thanks for tuning in and enjoy this throwback episode. Welcome to the second episode of Scary Things that You might have been taught at church. Today we are gonna be looking at Satan and I did all the research on this episode.
(1m 34s):
And so this episode is sort of, I’m Coplay as the host of You’re Wrong About Maintenance Space. Two of my favorite podcasts Shay has. Normally we have, we both know what we’re talking about, but I’ve, I’ve given Shay no information and I’m going to take us on a journey And I will either be very excited at how this goes or it will be a dumpster fire train wreck. So hopefully, hopefully this goes. Well, Shay, before we get started, there’s this famous quote, the greatest trick the devil, devil devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist. Do you know who said that?
(2m 16s):
CS Lewis from screw tape letters. That is what I thought. It is not in CS Lewis’s screw tape letters. Oh, interesting. So actually where it is most popularly, I that’s exactly what I thought so too, it’s from the Usual suspects. Kaiser Soce says it in the 1995 film, but actually it was first said in Quakerism Explains by John Wilkinson in 18 36, 1 of the artifices of Satan is to inducement to believe that he does not exist. And then a number of other people throughout the years said different versions of it. And eventually it ended up in the 1995 film, the Usual Suspects, and then it got implanted into bor and MA’s memories as being by CS Lewis.
(3m 6s):
So today I, I feel like there was a, there was a, like, there was an element of Yeah, Screwtape letters that is, is around that concept. If it’s not the exact quote, if I’m remembering Screwtape letters correctly, yes, There is something about also like, sort of like distracting people with church work and busyness and idleness rather than trying to like be sort of bold allegiances to the devil. So in over the course of this episode, we are going to set out to convince you that life along with the devil, but the devil does not exist. And So just sort of tip our hat.
(3m 45s):
Shay, what do you know about Satan devil, et cetera? Well, I think there’s two questions there, right? There’s the what was I taught? Sure. And so very much what I was taught was that Satan was a fallen angel, was Lucifer, right? That the two were the, were intertwined that Satan was definitely a like being that existed, that was personified and was an individual, right? Yeah. That it, it wasn’t a, a conglomerate that Satan was a, that’s a thing that Satan could tempt and lead people astray, but that Satan couldn’t be in more places than one.
(4m 38s):
So Satan could only be in a singular place, but he had minions and demons that were doing his bidding and that Satan couldn’t get inside your head, right? So if you thought, thought Satan didn’t have access to them, if you prayed silently, Satan didn’t have access to that. But if you prayed out loud, Satan could hear that. Yeah. So that was like, and that we were really like, we should definitely be afraid of Satan and demons because they were trying to tempt us and get us to stray.
(5m 18s):
My church didn’t really go in for the idea of like demon possession. Like that wasn’t really a thing. We didn’t really do exorcisms. I, but, but there was de there was a sense that like a demon or Satan could persuade you to do things and could even do that to Christians. Like if you weren’t, if you were backslidden at the moment. So that was definitely a huge source of fear for me. I mean like my whole childhood was like not, not only do you have to like believe, but you have to like do it really, right?
(5m 59s):
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of fear and anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. So that is all very similar to what I had learned as well. There’s different names that people have used for Satan, Satan, Lucifer, Biba, Diablos also referred to as belly, prince of Darkness, prince of demons, angel of the abyss, father of lies, accuser, adversary, evil, one destroyer slanderer and ancient serpent. And much like you, I was sort of taught that all of these different various ideas were like one person. It’s just like different, different personas or different figures, but like there was like one like ruler of like, there was like one arch villain, right?
(6m 47s):
And so we’re, over the course of this episode, we’re going to sort of explore where our ideas about Satan, the devil, et cetera, come from. So the Hebrew Bible, there’s a few references to Satan or Haitin. The word Satan actually only appears twice. And both times it’s in the story of Baalam, the seer who is asked by the Moabite King Bach to curse the Jews. And Is that the one with the talking donkey? Yes, I believe so because there’s a, I wish I had the longer, I wish I had the full quote pulled, but there’s a, I have a 14 page outline, so I just pulled one quote.
(7m 38s):
So this is like numbers 22, 22, would you read it for us? And God’s anger was kindled because he went and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass and his two servants were with him. Yeah. So here it’s just this adversary, right? It’s not this epic mythical creature. It’s, you know, Can I ask a question? Yeah. So is the language used for angel of the Lord an adversary? Those are two different Yeah, it’s the adversary is words. The words. Yeah. So oftentimes Satan just means adversary or accuser, right?
(8m 20s):
And then only twice in the Hebrew Bible. So this is like an adjective, right? Like it’s a, it’s a, a general sort of like an adversary or an accuser. And then only twice in the Hebrew Bible does Satan appear as like a specific figure. Ha Satan, like the Satan. And one is a brief reference in the book of Zacharia where the high priest is described as standing before a divine angel while Satan stands at his right to accuse him. And the other is in the Book of Job where Satan was like the, has that sort of like central role in the story as a, the well in the story of job, right? That like Satan and God sort of argue about what to do with job.
(9m 4s):
And the book of job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the, the Jewish view of Satan is different than the Christian view. Because in this story like Satan only inflicts suffering with God’s permission. Like Satan is very much subordinate to him and like argues with him. But like ultimately not like in Christianity where it’s viewed as this sort of like wrestling match and like God’s gonna prevail but think Satan like thinks that he is more powerful or could possibly be, right? So that is Satan in the Hebrew Bible, obviously we’re not Jewish folks But we share up some of our scripture together.
(9m 49s):
And so Christianity, early Christians, Catholic church, Protestantism, since then, all of that obviously like references are shared common interest or in ancient Judaism. And so some of our ideas about who Satan is or like what the devil does reference back to the the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. I know that for me one of the things that I was taught was that the devil was the serpent in the Garden of Eden story. But if you like actually read the text of the Garden of Eden story with Adam and Eve, like it’s just a serpent, right?
(10m 32s):
That that that the Hebrew Bible itself isn’t making these connections from the serpent there to Satan, a sort of general accuser to Haan this specific figure. And one of the thing, one of the pla reference points for this idea that Satan, the devil, et cetera, is the serpent comes from Ezekiel 28 19 which many Christians interpret as sort of like pointing back to the devil in the garden of Eden. And so this is Ezekiel 28, 12 through 19 You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
(11m 15s):
You were in Eden, the garden of God, every precious stone adorned you, cornelian, crystalite and emerald topaz, onyx and Jasper Laos, zuli, turquoise and barrel. Your settings and mountings were made of gold on the day you were created. They were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub for so I ordained you, you were on the holy mount of God, you walked among the fiery stones, you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you through your widespread trade. You were filled with violence and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mounts of God And I expelled you guardian cherub from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.
(11m 60s):
So I threw you to the earth, I made a spectacle of you before kings by your many sins, a dishonest trade. You have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you and it consumed you And I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who are watching all the nations who knew you are appalled at you. You have come to a horrible end and will be no more. Yeah. So at first blush because of you know, the serpent being there in the garden, it sounds like if you just sort of like took this on face value out of context, it might sound like this, you is the serpent or the devil, right? He’s talking about devil. And so like you the devil were there like in the garden.
(12m 42s):
But actually if you just back up 18 verses, eel 28 opens by saying the word of the Lord came to me, son of man stage, the ruler of tire. This is what the sovereign Lord says. And so that whole passage that you read is not directed at the devil, it’s directed at this king in at the time of Ezekiel. And like, so obviously it’s a callback to Genesis and it’s using like it’s playing with the imagery from the garden to talk about how this person is like bad. But it’s not talking about Satan, it’s talking about like an actual literal ruler. I mean, so this is like another one of those cases where like context matters both like if you like know the historical context of like what was going on at that time, but also if you just move, like scroll back up the page 18 verses, it tells you who this U is and it’s the U is not actually the devil.
(13m 37s):
So that’s one person. And then sometimes you might have heard Lucifer being one of the names for the devil. Do you know where that I like name comes from There. There is a, there is a passage that it’s like, And I saw Lucifer fall from heaven, but I don’t actually, yeah, Yeah, yeah. And I know it’s in the Hebrew scriptures, but I don’t actually know where it’s Good job. It comes from a certain passage in Isaiah 14, how you have fallen from the heavens, oh mourning star, son of the dawn, how you have been cut down to the earth, you who conquer the nations and Isaiah’s writing about the king of Babylon. Like again, this is like one of those things where it’s like Isaiah’s writing about the king of Babylon, but some Christians are like, no, actually this is the devil one.
(14m 22s):
It’s like very clearly not. And the person who was addressed as oh morning star is a reference to the planet of Venus, which at the time was like thought of as a, looked like a star and sometimes was called a star. And the Romans called Venus Lucifer, which means light bringer. And so that is how we got that because in the King James version it reads, oh, how are you falling from having Lucifer son of the morning? How you are cut down to the ground. So look at you Shay put that seminary degree to work. So that is a brief history of both like the actual appearances of the word Satan ha and has Satan in the Hebrew Bible and some of our misguided ideas about where Satan does or does not show up in making Hebrew scriptures.
(15m 14s):
And now let’s turn to the devil in the New Testament. What do you know about the devil showing up in the New Testament? Well, some folks have said that the devil shows up in the gospel of Luke when Jesus is in the wilderness, there are references right? To people being possessed that I think that’s where we get some of the Beelzebub stuff. And Jesus is like, and they accused Jesus of possessing people and he is like, that’s ridiculous.
(15m 56s):
House divided against itself cannot stand. And then I’m sure Paul makes some kind of references though, probably not as many as we think. And then I would assume that a lot of it comes from the book of Revelation. Great, great, great, great. So the word like the devil as opposed to like Satan is kind comes from Satan and Hasan from the keeper Bible, the devil comes from the Greek word diablos, which just gets translated as devil. That word appears 36 times in the Christian scriptures.
(16m 38s):
It’s usually about the devil, but it’s not always in first Timothy three 11 Diablos is translated as slanders. And in second Timothy three, three it’s translated as false accusers. And in both of those passage us, it’s like definitely talking about groups of humans, not actual like, not like a mythical devil. So like it’s again this, like this word has some nuanced meaning of an archetypal sort of evil figure and also just like literal people doing bad stuff, right? Like you, you are right.
(17m 19s):
Like it’s also de is also used in both Matthew and Luke when Jesus is in the wilderness. And then there’s also these like demons, right? That like are possessed by by that, that Jesus encounters. And I think like that’s really interesting because in Mark 15, in mark five, the collective name of the demons being driven out by Jesus’s actually Legion, which, And when we do our series on Mark, I got, I have a whole thing on the garrison demonic and the herd of pigs and it’s gonna be juicy. So stay tuned for that.
(18m 0s):
Yeah. And so some foreshadowing here that like yes, demon, but legion is also very clearly a nod to the Roman army and the Roman occupiers, right? And so this is one of those moments where you sort of are mixing political and religious language and using metaphor because like you can’t say we should drive out the Roman army, but but you can, you can drive out this like spiritual demon and it’s, but it’s not saying that our faith should not be political, it should only be spiritual. But that like we use spiritual metaphors to make political claims, which I’m so excited for your series, our series on Mark coming up next month.
(18m 50s):
But so this is another, another one of those moments where like there we, my my childhood Sunday school imagination of all of the demons that Jesus drove out, it was like literal demons that were sent from the devil. And the idea that it could actually be a very blatant political metaphor was like, like was never, was, never taught to me. But now looking at it, it’s like, oh, that’s definitely what this, what this is what’s happening here Happen. And it’s, it’s also a bit like, you know, our conversations about original sin, right? That it’s that we are born into systems that are unjust and like there is a, there is an element of this demon possession of like systems that we are a part of Yes.
(19m 43s):
That get into our heads Yes. That we have to fight against that, but that aren’t like literal demons that are but are systems. Yeah. But that have spiritual impact, right? I think that that’s important. Yeah. And I think it, this is a, a tricky part or like a a a complicated part to name, but it feels important that Jesus’ death in John’s gospel was sort of attributed to the Jews who can never attribute salvation because they are children of their true father, the devil in some translations is how it is put. And so like we just like need to name that like some parts of the Christian writings are like super anti-Semitic and Especially the gospel of John.
(20m 34s):
So like, let me just have a yeah. Rant about the gospel of John. It is not surprising to me that evangelical’s favorite gospel is the gospel of John. It is the latest of all of the gospels written though they will tell you that it’s the first that is incorrect. It’s the most theological and it’s the most antisemitic. And I think that like those three things are important. They’re intertwined and it’s like why evangelicals love the gospel of John. Yes. And I’m sure, And I do not, I’m sure we will get into Mark versus the other gospels next month. And then also, I believe it’s in May, we’re doing a whole month long series with rabbis and Jewish leaders and content creators, which we’ve already recorded some of them and it’s so good.
(21m 25s):
And a few of them sort of touch upon antisemitism within Christianity and what to do about that. So stay tuned. But one of the places that the devil quote unquote shows up is John accusing the Jews, the Jews of being children of the devil. And so last week we reference, we, I think I referenced the Carmen of the Carmen song about the the Champion. I’m, I’m also, I’m really sorry to anyone who wasn’t familiar with Carmen and who then watched that and or Googled Carmen and watched any of his other videos.
(22m 5s):
Just, I’m sorry. But so I think that on behalf of, I think that Carmen’s song sort of like symbolizes is indicative of an idea that Christian, some Christians, many Christians our childhood, but the adulthoods of lots of Christians have about sort of like what’s going on with God slash Jesus and the devil. And so can you sort of like summarize how the devil and God slash Jesus are sort of like, how do those relate to those figures? These like big archetypical figures like relate to each other cosmically? Yeah, I mean there’s this idea that like God and Satan are in a battle for the souls of people that Jesus’ death is the thing that will eventually put down Satan, but that like Satan is allowed to run rampant in the world.
(22m 57s):
And then also when, you know, we talked last week about the end times when the rapture and the end times come, Satan will be given even more power until finally Satan is bound and thrown into a pit for a thousand years and we have peace, but then Satan comes back again and then it’s Armageddon I think, and then, and then we like really get rid of Satan forever. But the, you know, the Carmen video was very much about like this boxing match almost between Jesus and Satan. So this idea that like Satan has a lot of power, but also that like, that’s with God’s permission, which always seemed a little sketchy to me now seems a real sketch.
(23m 45s):
And I do think, I think this is also another moment to say that I think so much of our conception of Satan comes from Christian pop culture. Like I’m thinking of Carmen right now, I’m thinking of Frank Pereti and all of his this present darkness books I’m thinking of, you know, the left Behind series. Yeah. Like all of these things that are like presumably amusing air quotes like based on scripture, but like aren’t Yeah, they’re, they’re just not. Yeah. So I think this idea of like the boxing match gets, gets pulled from, so in acts of the apostles, Luke makes the claim that even like Hades or shale, which we will get into next week when we talk about conceptions of hell could not hold the crucified Christ.
(24m 35s):
And in one Peter it says that Jesus made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits who disobeyed long ago. And also the gospel is preached even to those who are now dead. And so like by the second century, the church was sort of like starting to fill in the details of like what was going on between Good Friday when Jesus was crucified and Easter Sunday when he was resurrected and like, what about all of the righteous people of the past? Like what happens to ’em and how could they be saved if they had like, never had an opportunity to know Jesus? And so that’s where this idea came started to generate that like Jesus descended into hell and sort of like battled for the souls of the ones of the righteous down there.
(25m 24s):
And this is something that perhaps we’ll get into next week that we talk a little bit about in our workshop. You know, like why did Jesus die? Sort of different like theories of atonement, but like Christ is Victor, right? This idea that like Jesus like went down to hell to like bust us all out and had this, had this fight. Like I actually really love, it’s that idea of Christus Victor is like much older than Latino, substitutionary a atonement, which is basically like Jesus, we we’re supposed to be punished and slaughtered. Jesus stands in our place and Jesus got punished and slaughtered instead of us. And so like he’s our punishment substitute. And so the Chris’ Victor idea of like Jesus going and waging war on our behalf is to, to break it out is is older than penal substitutionary atonement.
(26m 12s):
And I kind of like, but also like, like this boxing match is maybe taking it a little to the extreme. And then when we get to Jude and Revelation, that’s where we really get to start to see these sort of like epic mythic i ideas about the devil that like maybe aren’t about the devil at all actually, but also a lot of our sort of like popular imagination of the devil gets pulled from stories and revelation. I know Shay you, I think you’re familiar with Revelation. Could you talk a little bit about Revelation?
(26m 52s):
Well, I mean it’s weird, right? Like, you know, there’s seven headed beasts rising. There’s a horror of Babylon, there’s Satan, there’s like the four horsemen. There’s Jesus riding in, there’s bloodshed like massive bloodshed up to like the bellies of horses, right? There’s all of this stuff and then we get at the end kind of a new, a new Jerusalem. And I think that like a lot of our conceptions both about the end times about what eternity will be like and about Satan all come from this text that is very much, it’s not a fortune, it’s not, it’s not a fortune telling text, right?
(27m 42s):
Yeah. And, and so like, but I think that we have this conception that, that this is a, this is a text that tells us what’s gonna happen in the future. That none of these things have happened yet, but they are like signs and way points that if we just watch Will will experience we’ll, we’ll see what what we’re gonna get. Yeah. So all the stuff that we’ve talked about thus far are a bunch of like scattered references from across lots of different books. The Serpent in the Creation story, these like metaphors talking about the king of tire, about like the Babylonian kings, about Ha Satan, about the Roman Empire, all this like weird mythical stuff that’s a lot of like allegory in in ju revelation.
(28m 30s):
And so it’s really easy for us to then like look at all of these like quote unquote like bad people, especially like when we’ve been told by people in power, like, oh, these are all the same person, but like that’s like not actually what the text says. The text never actually makes those connections. And so for all of the homophobic, transphobic, fundamentalist conservative Christians in our comments talking about how we’re doing like is of Jesus, which is like a, just like a doomed like fratty way of saying like, I don’t, I disagree with you, but trying to like make, use the language of academia to disagree is like reading your own sort of like interpretation into the text and sort of like making the Bible say quote unquote, like making the Bible say what you want it to say.
(29m 19s):
But really in order to connect all of these people, like the angel that gets in the way, like the adversary that gets in the way of the angel of the Lord in numbers Hasan who accuses a high priest in Zacharia like the Diablos who tempts Jesus in the wilderness. Like those are all three different characters and you have to decide, you have to decide to connect those if. And so I think like one of the points to note, right, is that like, well, where do these ideas come from? And I think like when we think about like what scripture it is and is doing, it’s sort of like the story like of the people of God trying to make sense of themselves and their place in the world and their relationship to God.
(30m 6s):
And like this there, it’s this like big looming question of like, why do bad things happen and like what motivates bad people? And so I think that that’s sometimes why we use these like metaphors to describe, you know, like the king of ti the king of Babylon. ’cause it’s like you’re, it’s just like what you’re doing is so terrible. Like it’s hard to imagine that like you’re still human, right? Or like to show my own like modern bias is like Donald Trump, right? Like how are you And I part of the same human family? Like there must be, it’s just like too, too big of words, you know? And so these are the ways that which Judaism and Christianity have sort of like wrestled with why you bad things happen.
(30m 49s):
You know, in Greek and Roman mythology there’s like a pan of gods like Buddhism, Hinduism, like various other religions sort of all get at the existence of bad things in their own way. But obviously that’s beyond the scope of this podcast. And so like I wanna share to sort of call back to maintenance phase, and you’re wrong about is like, one of the things that Michael Hobbes often says on maintenance phase is like specifically around like fat phobia and medical quote unquote, like medical science and stuff like that is what ideas are we already willing to believe and what biases allow us to take shortcuts and see things that aren’t really there and to not even bother to dig beneath the surface to see if there’s any evidence to support that claim.
(31m 43s):
And I think like while bad things happen, and so like these are the sort of our ideas about Satan and then evil, I think for many of us are sort of the biases that we come to and the things that we’re just sort of like unquestionably like willing to believe. And so this is I hope, an opportunity to begin to scratch beneath the surface a little bit and see like, is there actually evidence there? And when it comes to like biblical support, like there’s really not much evidence to support our ideas about Satan. We’re almost getting done.
(32m 24s):
I I do wanna say, yeah, you know, I, I think also the idea of Satan is really easy, right? It’s, And I, I think it’s especially why it, the idea of Satan is really appealing to evangelicals because it gives you this external force to blame things on, right? And so the this idea that, well, it’s Satan’s fault, like I can’t tell you how many times I heard that as a kid or you know, even this idea, even this idea in popular culture like the devil made me do it, right? It’s, it’s this idea of us being able to put off our own guilt and responsibility for things onto this other being that we can then blame and say, well, you know, not only like could we not help it, but also this like super, super powerful being did this to us or did this in the world or is causing these things.
(33m 21s):
And like when you take away the ability to do that, you’re faced with the fact that like, oh no, like sometimes I do really shitty things. Yeah. And that wasn’t Satan, like that was just me. And I have to like own up to that and make amends for that. And like that is much more challenging to both face emotionally, but also to like move through the world knowing that you are responsible for your own actions that you can’t blame some mythical being Ugh. Yeah, exactly. And so I think like as you’ve, as we’ve explored thus far, these ideas of sage and the devil that we sort of think of aren’t coming from the Bible necessarily.
(34m 5s):
And so where are they coming from? Shaa, like you made reference, like a lot of it’s coming from pop culture And I think it, it like comes a lot of, comes from modern pop culture that we’re just sort of all swimming around in. And I think our modern pop culture rather than actually drawing from the Bible draws a lot on medieval paintings and like medieval and colonial era literature, like the big ones are Inferno by Dante Paradise, Lost by John Milton and the Canterbury Tales by Jeffrey Chauser. And then more modern theologians like CS Lewis pull upon a lot of that to sort like make their case.
(34m 44s):
And then like that gets trickled down to us. It’s like, reminds me of that scene in the Devil Wears Prada where she’s got like the two different types of blue and it’s like, oh, you think you’re making a choice, but it’s like it’s not actually coming. The the origin isn’t the, the bible, the origin is like this medieval literature and paintings and they sort of like get money laundered down through the millennia and then like, then it gets presented to us as like it was a game of telephone. It was coming from the Bible. And so we just, I feel like we can’t talk about the, the devil without talking about screw tape, the Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis or just so, so big in the popular imagination.
(35m 25s):
And so in letter 22, toward the end of the letter screw tape goes through a transformation and it’s literally from Paradise Lost. Shay, can you, can you read it out? We will make the whole universe a noise in the end. We have already made great strides in this direction as regards to the earth. The melodies and silences of heaven will be shouted down in the end. But I admit we are not yet loud enough or anything like it. Research is in progress. Meanwhile you disgusting little here, the manuscript breaks off and is resumed in a different hand in the heat of composition.
(36m 8s):
I find that I have in inadvertently allowed myself to assume the form of a large centipede. I’m accordingly dictating the rest to my secretary. Now that the transformation is complete, I recognize it as a periodical phenomenon. Some rumor of it has reached the humans and distorted account of it appears in the poet Milton with the ridiculous edition that such changes of shape are a punishment imposed on us by the enemy. And I just like, I read this And I was like, I can’t believe I used to like think the CS Lewis was this like titan of faith, but he is like, oh, let me like, I don’t know, copy John Milton’s Paradise lock.
(36m 49s):
It’s also, it’s also very kafkaesque, right? With guy waking up as a cockroach. Like it, it feels very derivative of that as well. I don’t know what the timing is on that, but Yeah, I dunno either. But I also thought of Kafka and that and that as well. And also just like it reminds me that like it’s, yeah, CS Lewis is all sort of the Chronicles of Narnia. There’s something very sort of like juvenile about this whole story. And so it’s just sort of like CS Lewis not is like sort of like tipping his hand to like a lot of his ideas about Satan are coming not from the Bible but from John Milton and Paradise Laws. I’m like, yes, he’s critiquing it, but like you, he is also sort of like very much informed by it.
(37m 31s):
And so I just like want to go on a journey of representations of of the devil. We’ll put a link to all of these in the show notes for this episode, which you can find at Queer Theology dot com slash 4 2 4. Shay, can you describe to me what you are seeing? This is a mural by Florence and from the Florence Baptistry in 1260 by Kapo de Markal. We’ve got a horned being a naked horned male being with a, oh yeah, you could see his penis Half, Yes, half, half in and out of his mouth.
(38m 22s):
There’s like a two-headed snake coming out of his ears and he’s also maybe sitting on a two-headed snake, unclear if that’s part of his body or if he’s sitting on it. And all of the snakes are are eating the peoples. Yeah, it’s wild. And then I’m gonna send you another one Again. We’ve got a like partially horned but also maybe just funky ears, some fur on the face of this one, but also a face in the stomach area, talons on the feet, which are like standing on and gripping a human.
(39m 6s):
But then it’s also in like a, a mouth of a serpent like oh yeah. Faced guy Yeah. Is standing on a human and all of them are in the mouth of a, of a serpent. And then there’s a banner that says like inferno redemption, something else above, above the fuz fuzzy faced guy. Yeah. So this is some like medieval era imaginations of the devil. And then in the like 15 hundreds we start getting some propaganda that sort of like mixes the devil with some propagated What, what was going on sort of around the 15 hundreds.
(40m 4s):
I was homeschooled, my history is not great. You, you’re gonna have to help me out. Okay, so around then as the like church of as like the reformation was happening. Oh yes, We started to get some, some, some anti-Catholic propaganda. I wish you could see shade’s face right now. I don’t even know how to describe this. It’s like a, it’s a bird looking thing is the Satan figure, but like playing bagpipes that are made out of the pope’s head, I’m assuming, I’m assuming that’s a pope.
(40m 47s):
Yeah, well the pope or a mon priest. Yeah, something like that. That’s Excellent. Yeah. The the, like the Catholic church in this depiction is like a literal instrument of Satan, right? And so good times, good times. And so then we start to move on to a more like enlightened devil. You know, this is like where like John Milton sort of like a more complex portrait of Lucifer in the Paradise Lost. And so here’s like some enlightenment era. It’s like very much ripped eight pack white dude with arms up raised, right?
(41m 37s):
Like very human looking kind of ideal body type, ideal quote, unquote. Yeah. As, as, as Michael Hobbs would say, there’s just like a marketably attractive like the, the the type of body that you use to sell like shaving cream, right? Yes. And that also, this is William Blake’s depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost, like rallying his rebel angels from 1808. Like, he’s like, he’s, you know, he could be an Insta, right? Like he’s very fu attractive. And so I think like you, it’s really this progression. If you go to the, to, to the show notes of this episode, again, Queer Theology dot com slash 4 24, you’ll see like there’s real progression from like totally wild out there in the 12 hundreds.
(42m 31s):
And it starts to get more and more like we understand the devil today from going from this sort of like wild colors horns to this more sort of like fiery version to then this like version that is associated with like political enemies. And then finally to this sort of like cunning smart shapeshifting and can’t take any form, like sort of enlightened the devil. And I, I think about like other like really recent pop culture where it’s like Satan in a business suit, right? Like he’s a businessman with like a rich tailored suit and fancy cars and yeah.
(43m 14s):
Moves through skyscrapers, right? Like we’ve, that progression just keeps on going. Yeah. And so this is a little bit of for so, so Shea, I guess like what do we, what do we do with all of this that we’ve covered sort of like, okay, like, so this is like the history of Satan. This is like Satan in the Hebrew Bible, this is Diablo and the Christian Bible. This is sort of like our popular pop culture conceptions and where it all comes from, like, so cool, like now I’ve got all this data, right? Like what does this mean for us as like modern people at faith, sort of like going about our lives and our spiritualities?
(43m 57s):
Well, I mean, I think it’s really important. I I think this is why it’s so important to know your history, right? To understand how these different conceptions got passed down, where they came from, And I, and like what we talked about in the deconstruction series, like this is a moment to like hold each card up to the light and see what stands right? And to, and to also, like you said, instead of looking at Satan and the devil as like a full deck of cards, right? We have to look at these different cards are not necessarily connected, so we have to pull them apart.
(44m 42s):
And then I think it’s also about thinking through, okay, what purpose did each of these different ideas serve in their individual forms, right? Like, what was the author of Job trying to say? What is, you know, the book of the author of Revelation trying to say and do What was Milton and CS Lewis trying to do, right? Like, these are all, people are writing things because they’re trying to make a point. And I think we can examine what’s underneath the point and figure out if, if that holds for us without having to like believe in a conception of Satan in a boxing match with Jesus, right?
(45m 32s):
I, And I do think that this is a moment to say this package deal that we’ve been sold about Satan in our, specifically in our evangelical churches, but in other churches as well that was used to like scare us into towing the line is like not something that we have to be afraid of. Yeah. And just like, you know, I now, I can’t remember if it was on the podcast or inside of Sanctuary Collective, but talking about like original sin, right? As this package that I was taught that I, I ultimately found like mostly unsupported by scripture and kind of like uncompelling, but then sort of came back around to like, oh, but there are ways to understand original sin that do make sense.
(46m 16s):
Like systemic injustice. Systemic racism. Like, oh yeah, like this thing that happened before I was born that I had no control over, but that like, even at the moment of my birth, like impacted me and that I impacted and that like, while I didn’t like create it back in the day, I sort of end up with the responsibility to do something about it. I’m like, oh yeah, like that does work. And so you don’t have, like, this is a little bit of like what, when you were saying shit like examining each card and like what’s underneath it and like what are they trying to get at? And like finding, looking at the ways in which what they’re trying to get at is like antisemitism. Like maybe you wanna discard that deck, that card.
(46m 57s):
But there there are some things like what do we do with evil and where does it come from and how do we resist it? And there probably are some really powerful ideas in there. And then how does that affect your theology? And so to sort of underline that sort of thought right there, and to close us out, I’m gonna share a portion of a quote from Desmond Tutu’s book Made For Goodness, which he wrote in 2010, which I read, and it, it blew my mind. And it’s a longer quote that I, I think I’m gonna save part of either for the hell episode or for the eternal damnation episode. But, but I will start it. And so we’ll stop to keep looking to the series to find out the rest of the rest of this passage.
(47m 39s):
But this is from Desmond Tutu’s Meg for goodness, God’s Pursuit of the Sinner is a risky gamble, but it is not a futile one. God is no fool. God would not risk everything on a gamble that was doomed to fail. In fact, the early Christian theologian origin would maintain that the odds are in God’s favor and time is on God’s side. Origin believed that God’s love is so irresistible that heaven will ultimately win us all. He scandalized even his contemporaries by asserting that at the end of time, even Satan would abandon hell to worship God in heaven. And so I just love this idea of like even Satan, this medieval that there’s, there’s room in like God’s transformative love for all of us, but not that we, not that we get to stay in our prejudices and evil, that it transforms us, but that, like I think about, you know, in Sanctuary Collective recently someone was talking about like, well, what do we do about like, people who do really awful things, or I think about like, you know, Donald Trump or you know Fred Phelps, sort of like these people that are devils of our time.
(48m 44s):
And I think the question of what happens to the devil? What happens to the people who do really bad things? What happens to you and me? What happens to people who don’t pray to, to pray to God and accept Jesus? All of these questions are things that we will be addressing in hell and in eternal damnation. So stay tuned. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.
(49m 25s):
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50 min
September 14, 2025Queering Isaiah 58: Communal Restoration and Justice
We are queering the whole chapter of Isaiah 58 in this week’s episode. There is so much in this chapter, especially when we look at themes of justice, community, and personal reflection. It’s especially interesting to look at how this chapter resonated with our younger selves and how we view it today. There is emphasis on the importance of treating marginalized individuals with care and the communal nature of faith. We feel called in this chapter to foster growth and imagination, focusing on our own unique gifts that come with queerness.
Takeaways
Isaiah 58 calls for justice and community care.
Personal faith should reflect how we treat others.
Communal restoration is a key aspect of faith.
Revisiting scripture can lead to personal growth.
Navigating privilege is essential in faith discussions.
Sabbath is a time for rest and reflection.
Imagining a better world is crucial for progress.
Articulating a collective dream is necessary for change.
Community support is vital for individual growth.
Engagement with scripture fosters deeper understanding.

Chapters
(02:59) Personal Reflections on Faith and Justice
(06:02) The Communal Nature of Faith
(09:12) Revisiting Scripture: Growth and Reflection
(12:07) Navigating Privilege and Safety
(14:49) The Importance of Sabbath and Rest
(18:04) Imagining a Better World
(21:03) Articulating Our Collective Dream
(24:00) Conclusion: Community and Next Steps

Resources:
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community
If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis to Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.
(2m 49s):
Hello, Hello, Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’re gonna go back to our roots yet again, and we’re gonna queer a passage from scripture. Today we’re gonna be looking at Isaiah 58, the whole chapter. Shay’s gonna read it for us in just a moment from the common English Bible. If you would like to pull up your Bible and read along, we would love to have you otherwise. Here is Isaiah 58. Shout loudly. Don’t hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Announce to my people, their crime, the house of Jacob, their sins. They seek me day after day, desiring knowledge of my ways, like a nation that acted righteously, that didn’t abandon their God. They ask me for righteous judgements, wanting to be close to God.
(3m 30s):
Why do we fast? And you don’t see why afflict ourselves, and you don’t notice yet on your fast day, you do whatever you want and oppress all your workers. You quarrel and brawl, and then you fast. You hit each other violently with your fists. You shouldn’t fast as you’re doing today. If you wanna make your voice heard on high. Is this the kind of fast I choose? A day of self affliction, of bending one’s head, like a read and of lying down in morning clothing and ashes? Is this what you call a fast day acceptable to the Lord? Isn’t this the fast I choose? Releasing wicked restraints and tying the ropes of a yolk, setting free the mistreated and breaking every yolk, isn’t it sharing your bread with the hungry and bringing the homeless poor into your house, covering the naked.
(4m 14s):
When you see them and not hiding them and not hiding from your own family, then your light will break out like the dawn and you’ll be healed quickly. Your own righteousness will walk before you and the Lord’s glory will be your rear guard. Then you’ll call and the Lord will answer. You’ll cry for help. And God will say, I’m here. If you remove the yoke from among you, the finger pointing, the wicked speech, if you open your heart to the hungry and provide abundantly for those who are afflicted, your light will shine in the darkness and your gloom will be like the no. The Lord will continually, the Lord will guide you continually and provide for you even in parched places. He will rescue your bones. You’ll be like a watered garden, like a spring of water that won’t run dry.
(4m 57s):
They will rebuild ancient ruins on your account and foundations of generations past. You’ll restore, you’ll be called mender of broken walls, restore of lable streets. If you stop trampling the Sabbath, stop doing whatever you want on my holy day and consider the Sabbath of the Lord honored and honor it. Instead of doing things your way, seeking what you want and doing business as usual, then you will take delight in the Lord. I will let you ride on the heights of the earth. I’ll sustain you with the heritage of your ancestor, Jacob. The mouth of the Lord has spoken. Oh, amen. This is the word of the Lord.
(5m 38s):
Oh, I love this passage. Yeah, it really brings me back this passage, or at least part of this passage, my first or second year in New York City. I observed lent for the first time, and every day on my lunch break, I would sneak away from my office job in my cubicle, And I would go to a nearby church And I would sit in the back pew. It was like it was open to the public, but like there weren’t services happening. And I would read the psalms and the prophets And I, I think that I like almost every day read a portion of this passage, if not the whole passage. And like the, is this, isn’t this the fast I chose releasing wicked restraints, untying the ropes of a yoke, setting free, mistreated, and breaking every yoke.
(6m 20s):
I would read at least that if not the whole passage, like every, every day. ’cause you know, lunch is a fasting holiday, I guess you would call a holiday. And so like, sort of like recentering, like this is the type of fast, right? And I remember being like, I was relatively newly out. I’d probably been out for, I don’t know, four or five years, And I was recently outta college And I was just sort of like, oh, it’s like so freaking hard to be queer and everyone is against us and the church misunderstands us and they’re focused on all of the wrong things and like, this is what we should care, But we should care about justice. And I remember being like, I am one of the oppressed and like God wants the yoke of my oppression to be broken.
(7m 5s):
And I do also remember being like, And I get to partner in other types of justice work to break other types of oppression. But like that the church, the church quote unquote, like writ large was sort of like missing the mark. And so I remember being really inspired by this and, and, but like sort of like schooled by a, like a righteous indignation sort of away. So I, this like really takes me back And I’m, it’s interesting now all these years later to see things I didn’t quite catch the first time around. Yeah. I, I love, I love this passage. I mean, the first part I like, the first response is always I read this And I’m like, are are evangelicals just like not reading scripture?
(7m 49s):
Like I don’t understand because I think about like how my church growing up would’ve interpreted this passage and it would’ve been, I mean, a, a shit show, but like Right, It, it would’ve been like, well then you just need, you’re, you’re doing too much on Sunday, right? That is the message that they would read, they would take out of this passage of like, you have to like honor the quote unquote Sabbath better and like, Go to Church more, which is like the total opposite of what this passage is saying, which is like, part of what you’re doing wrong is you’re like being a dick on the like the most holy day.
(8m 30s):
So like, get it together. But I’m, I’m so struck by how, once again, like how communal these, these prophetic texts are and how, and so many of the texts and scripture, like it’s not about me and my personal relationship with the divine. It’s like how am I treating my, am I treating the most marginalized in the mi in my, how am I treating people who are and who are without housing? And like that is the measure by which my and my religiosity.
(9m 13s):
Like that’s, that’s the yardstick, right? It’s not about like, did I fast and do my quiet time and go to church? It’s like how am I treating the people around me? And I think that this is such, also such a, one of my favorite parts of this, of this whole passage is, is verse 12, which is you’ll be called member of broken walls and restore of liberal of livable streets. And like this idea that for folks that are following in this way of justice, that like we will be the ones that will restore our communities, right?
(9m 56s):
It’s, it’s not just this sense of, I don’t know, personal piety. It’s this beautiful sense of communal restoration. And, And I think about like, we see this echoed in the Christian scriptures of like, they will know you are Christians by your love, which is so, it’s such a trite thing now. And now of course there are like tons of people who are saying yes. And the way that I tell people I love them is like by telling them their lives are sinful and that they’re like gonna, hell yeah. Right? And it’s, but it’s like no, like where, where is, where is the actionable good and care of community in the way that you’re living?
(10m 38s):
And, and this idea of restore of livable streets and member of walls in like, I I’m sure that you see this in the urban spaces that you’re living in. I see it in the rural spaces that I live in. Houses that are falling down streets that are, are in disarray. Like what does it look like to show up in a community and help rebuild and in and rebuild in a like life giving way, not in a gentrifying pricing out the poor people kind of way. Yeah. This is like, this is really taking me on a trip to memory lane.
(11m 20s):
This is why I love revisiting passage us of scripture over and over again throughout the years that like to, to read this passage that was so that I read in sort of the early days of my like queer, progressive faith life. Probably like the midpoint of my actual life, but like the early days of like my queer faith life and then to just come back to it now. Well, I’m old like, I don’t know, 15 years later, right? Like I think that if I was reflecting back on like my adult life since, since when I first like observed that for the first time, I think I would be like, oh, I think that there’s sort of like a solid core through line of my faith that has stayed like largely the same.
(12m 1s):
Like it definitely shifted a lot from when I was an evangelical to an adult. But like there then I sort of like settled into like, I’m a queer person of faith. I’m justice oriented. And like that has sort of like been consistent and the particularities of that maybe have changed in one, in one big way obviously, but like in general it feels like fairly consistent. And also I’m looking back and realizing that that’s like maybe not true. That I, maybe I like didn’t realize the ways in which my faith has shifted over time. ’cause I’m just like taken back to tho those pews and like, I really needed like the, the faith that sort of like got me free from oppression was like this, like righteous indignation.
(12m 44s):
They’re doing it wrong, tear it all down. Like I am seeing clearly I’m the oppressed. Like this is comfort to me. And in many ways that’s just like, that’s still true. But I think over the years I’ve, I’ve also began as I’ve become more certain in my faith as I become less and then not at all scared of God, I am more and more able to see conviction of myself in scripture and like, not in a shame inducing way, but just sort of a like calling me to a higher and better version of myself in a, a more inclusive and just community that we could be a part of.
(13m 25s):
So like, And I begin to shift from always having to be the victim in the story to sometimes maybe I can be the one that’s being challenged. And And I think that that then has like obviously like it’s good to be less shitty for the people who were, you were, who were, who were like maybe being shitty too, or it’s good to, you know, confront white supremacy for like, because of the targets of white supremacy. But, and also like in doing so, it like enriches my own life. And so like as I’ve been able to gently with my speech, I myself, but also allow my faith to convict me and not only not always comfort me, that also sort of paradoxically has enriched my faith and like then comforted me some more in the end.
(14m 16s):
So like that’s like one thing that I’m noticing that like, I think that I really needed to heal from being scared of God in order to see conviction in scripture, but like as I’ve done so it sort of does made my vision for like the way that the world could be even bigger. And, and then I, there’s like something about this like sabbath that I had had not noticed and that I’m noticing in a different way. Like perhaps unsurprisingly now that I’m Jewish, which I can talk more about, but I I that feels like a separate thought. So I’ll I’ll pause for now. Yeah, I I think that that’s like so, so important that there’s, there’s a nuance here, right? Because like queer and trans folks are marginalized and oppressed and especially like in the US as we’re recording this, like, it’s, it’s a scary time.
(15m 4s):
And, and also like I, something that I’ve been wrestling with a lot myself lately is that like as someone who is white and male presenting and like moves through the world with certain amounts of passing privilege, right? That there is, there are ways in which it’s not always, I have to, I have to be careful that I’m not always claiming safety when or claiming to be unsafe when in reality like I’m just uncomfortable and like, where are the lines in which I’m actually not at risk And I should be standing up or I should be putting myself on the line.
(15m 47s):
And like, where are the ways in which, no, this is actually an unsafe setting. And so like blending in or like choosing to be silent in that moment, like is, is a matter of, of safety and like, and how do I, how do I discern the difference and how do I like get, how do I even get comfortable being uncomfortable and, and potentially being unsafe when my safety is not the most important in a, in a particular room that I might be in. And I think that like, that has also been one of my journeys with scripture of like, where are the places, like you were saying, where I need to take comfort from the text, where I need to feel held, where I need to feel like God is on my side and, and gonna smite my enemies.
(16m 40s):
And where the places where like I need to maybe be smoking, right? Like not, not in a, not in a giant way, but in a, like a kick in the ass. Get yourself in gear, be a better achievement kind of way. And I, And I think that like there is right, that that’s like complicated. It’s not, there are no all of the time or easy answers. And I think that part of that is like growing in our faith and our maturity and our, both of our reading, but also our, our living And like you like, that is one of the reasons that I love revisiting texts and continuing to engage and to wrestle with and to grapple with scripture and tradition and community because like that is where growth happens Falls here.
(17m 30s):
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(18m 18s):
See se for details. Yeah. All, all of that. And so I mentioned like a little a moment ago that like this, this thing about the Sabbath trampling, the Sabbath stuck out to me in a way that maybe it didn’t before. And I, I think like, like you, my evangelical church would’ve like read it through the lens of like, the problem is is you’re not reading the Bible and you’re not coming to church on Sundays. And so then I I sort of would’ve been like, well that’s wrong And I would’ve like rejected that or maybe I even would’ve been like, oh, like observing the Sabbath is sort of like a legalistic practice that it was sort of, and Jesus did away with that and we don’t need that sort of thing anymore. And I would’ve used legalistic in a negative way.
(19m 1s):
And now as like a Jew who has sort of like taken on Jewish law and the whole like legal system and culture in addition to it, like a faith set of practices. I think that there actually, there’s like something about the Sabbath, it reminds me of all the stuff that we talk about like religious ritual and pr and spiritual practices that like, it’s not enough to keep the Sabbath, right? It just in the same way it’s like, it’s not enough to fast if you, if you are only fasting from food, right? And you’re not breaking the chains of injustice, like it’s a, it’s a fast that, that God is not interested in. Amos talks about like, I I hate, I despise religious festivals, right?
(19m 45s):
Like we’re, it’s clear in both the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures that like faith has to be a practice as well as sort of like religious piety. And also like there’s something about not trampling on the Sabbath and like honoring it and delighting in it that, you know, Jewish Jewish theology holds that, like on Shabbat you sort of get a glimmer of like the way that the world could be in sort of like the new world. And it reminds me of a little bit about what you were talking about, Shay you’ve reflected back to me that when I go to Fire Island for vacation with my queer chosen family, like yes, it’s a vacation.
(20m 28s):
And yes, also now it’s become sort of like a tradition and so it’s meaningful because we do it over and over again with these people that we care about. And also there’s like something about the particularities of fire island and the ways in which the queer people that I know like relate to one another on that island that it’s sort of like, oh, this is like a vision of the way that the world could be outside of the island as well. And so like there’s something about like you, it’s like a yes and like you can’t be just sort of like in go, go, go, go, go mode all the time. You need to rest. I think that the Sabbath is a weekly rhythm of resetting and resting and imagining like the way the world could be so that then you can go mend the broken walls and restore the livable streets.
(21m 12s):
But you sort of have to have like, you have to have a vision in mind about what you’re building. I think it sort of, here here’s where I got to right? That it’s like, it’s like not enough to just be like, the evangelicals are wrong. Donald Trump is not a real Christian. Like Sean Floyd is like terrible and an asshole and focus on the family is garbage. Like yeah. Like all those things are true. Like, but like we’re not like them. They’re like they’ve got it wrong. Like can’t be the beginning and the end of your beliefs about the way that the world is. Like what is your vision for the way that the world could be? And like in Judaism, like Shabbat is sort of like one of the times that we use to like recenter and refocus on that.
(21m 56s):
But like all religious traditions have practices by which you could reorient yourself. I mean, I think like communion and Christianity is like another sort of beautiful practice of, we talk about this in our rituals for resistance and resilience workshop, like remembering the body and like reorienting sort of our positionality in the world that like it’s, for me it’s like a yes and like making sure that I’ve moved towards a theology that says like, I’m not just going to be reactive, but I’m going to, I’m going to re And I’m not just gonna, I’m not just gonna like shake my fist or I’m not just gonna quote tweet to dunk on people, but I’m going to restore livable streets and men broken walls and create the kingdom of God on earth as in heaven.
(22m 46s):
Or like, as you would say, like the world to come. Yeah. I I think that’s so huge, especially in this moment, right? In this moment, yeah. Where everything is like sliding to shit and Yeah. And they’re so, I don’t know, I, there’s just, I I’m watching the political moment and watching who we’re championing and it’s concerning for lots of reasons. But like the biggest one is that it just feels like there is so little prophetic imagination.
(23m 27s):
And by that I don’t mean like a diagnoses of what’s wrong. Like I I think we have a really good sense of what’s wrong. I think like every single person can feel in their very narrow and being what’s wrong. And we even maybe have a sense of like, sense what would make it better. But I don’t know that we have a collective vision of like the kind of community we wanna live in and then have it like where is our communal dream of safety and goodness and celebration and art and collective care and all of these things.
(24m 9s):
And it’s like, I I think that’s, you And I talk all the time about the gifts that queerness and ethical, non-monogamy and transness have to offer. And I think that they absolutely have gifts to offer in this present moment. And, and one of the things right, is like a vision of a world, a way of being that we’ve been told shouldn’t exist, But we have proved over and over again that it does, right? Because we exist. And so in the midst of that, like where are, where, where can we lean even harder into that and say, what could our collective future look like and stop?
(24m 55s):
And I say this as like, I’m indicting myself as I say this too, right? There’s a lot of ways of, of which it’s, it’s easy to say, well, the dream is this obviously, but like that could never happen because right, because like X, Y, Z because we don’t have the money, because we don’t have the time, because we don’t have the power, because we don’t have the yada, yada yada. And I think that there’s like a yes and right there is a way in which we form coalitions that are practical and also in the midst of the practicality, if we don’t have the audacious dream, the like, what would we do and who would we be if it didn’t matter about the money or the politics or the coalitions or the whatever.
(25m 45s):
Like I don’t feel like we have articulated well what that is. And like that’s, that’s something that I am, I’ve really been thinking about for myself lately and like in my communities of like, what is the dream? And then we can talk about like, how are we gonna get there, you know? But if without the dream, we don’t even have, we don’t even have the beginning of the, of the steps. Yeah. Amen. All of that. I, I find myself wanting to like wrap up the episode with like a boat or like, and here is like, here are your like Buzzfeed listicle three next steps to do.
(26m 24s):
And like, I don’t have that, I’m so sorry dear listener, but I think like, maybe like the first, what I, what I can share for like things that have worked for me is like paying attention to all of this is like, I think like step one, right? And then like what are the practices that you can do to sort of help stretch your imagination for the way that the world could be? How can you, like what practices can you do? Just sort of like stretch yourself for the ways in which like you personally could be differently. Where do you take inspiration from? And like this work is impossible, impossible, impossible, impossible to do it alone.
(27m 6s):
And so like, who are you in community with and like, living alongside of? And that can be a combination of in person and online. And so like thinking through all those things, maybe we’ll sort of like move you in the right direction. And of course, as always, if like these are sort of like questions you want to like wrestle together with, we would love to have you inside of sanctuary collective or online community. You can learn more at Queer Theology com slash community. And if you’re like interested in like one-on-one sports direction or like coaching or anything like that, reach out and we’ll talk to you more about that. But Sanctuary Collective Community is a great place to start. We’d love to have you inside of there. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters.
(27m 53s):
To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.
The post Queering Isaiah 58: Communal Restoration and Justice appeared first on Queer Theology.
25 min
September 07, 2025Love Beyond Monogamy
This week we’re celebrating Brian’s new book, “Love Beyond Monogamy,” which comes out this month! In this book, he explores the themes of polyamory, spirituality, and the importance of love in various forms. Brian shares insights on how the book addresses both monogamous and non-monogamous audiences, emphasizing the sacredness of ALL relationships. The conversation also touches on the societal stigmas surrounding queerness and non-monogamy, and Brian reads an excerpt from the book that illustrates his perspective on spirituality and connection. This book is not just for poly folks or queer folks, it has so much for everyone.

Takeaways
The book is about polyamory and spirituality.
It addresses love in all its forms, not just romantic.
Spirituality is a key theme in understanding relationships.
The book aims to celebrate connections beyond monogamy.
Brian emphasizes the importance of pre-orders for authors.
Polyamory is often misunderstood as solely about sex.
The book is for both monogamous and non-monogamous readers.
Brian shares personal experiences with queerness and spirituality.
The book includes a reading about finding God in community.
Brian hopes the book will serve as a healing balm for readers.

Chapters
(01:17) Exploring the Essence of the Book
(04:57) The Role of Spirituality in Relationships
(08:24) Reading Excerpt: The Polyamorous God
(13:11) Dreams and Aspirations for the Book
(15:43) The Gifts of Polyamory
(21:15) Addressing Skepticism Towards Polyamory
(24:26) Logistics and Upcoming Events
Resources:
Get Brian’s book, Love Beyond Monogamy: How Polyamory Can Enrich Your Spirituality, Faith, and Relationships
Join our online community at Sanctuary Collective Community
If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.
(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to The Queer Theology Podcast. This is a conversation I have been very much looking forward to because today we are gonna talk all about Brian’s new book, Love Beyond Monogamy, which comes out on September 18th. So as you are listening to this, if you’re listening to it the day it comes out or around the day it comes out, there is still time to pre-order.
(55s):
And I, I just wanna say, I, I know we’ve said this a million times, we’re gonna keep saying pre-orders are so, so, so, so important, especially for books from marginalized authors. So if you even feel like you might have the most passing of interest In this book, go and pre-order it, it would also be great if you could recommend that your local library picks up a copy. And also that your local bookstore stocks it. We love supporting indie bookstores, so order it from there. And today we’re gonna, we’re gonna kind of dive into to talking about this book. So Brian, I wanna start with probably every author’s worst nightmare of a question, which is like, if you had to describe this book in just a couple of sentences for folks that maybe this is the first time they’re hearing about it, they don’t really know what it’s about.
(1m 47s):
Like what is this book and who do you think it’s for? Yeah, when I stood out to write the book, I set out to write a book about polyamory in spirituality, And I called it Love Beyond Monogamy. And then when I finished the book, so then in my mind I was, I was sort of like focusing on like the beyond monogamy part of it. And then when I finished the book, I realized that it was like, yes, about like filter through the lens of polyamory, non monogamy, but it was really a book about love and all of the different ways in which love can be present in our lives. And so this is a book not just for non monogamous audiences folks, but for monogamous audiences folks as well. And it’s a book not just for spiritual or religious folks, but for non-religious folks as well.
(2m 32s):
It’s really a way, sort of like pulling upon the wisdom of both polyamory and spirituality to look at the ways in which like all of our various relationships and connections in our lives past, present, and future can be deeply meaningful. The word that I would use for that as like sacred, but you can use whatever word sort of resonates for you. And so honoring, you know, long-term commitments, but also honoring one night stands and casual encounters and not feeling like we have to cut off ourselves from our exes or, or draw divisions between friend and family. And sort of like booking, just like letting love be bigger than you imagined. Hmm.
(3m 13s):
And you know, there have been a lot of books, it seems coming out right around now, polyamory and non-monogamy, and I’m, I’m curious, you know, what, what you think sets your book apart. Like why is your book different from what is has already been published? And you know, we’ve seen some glimpses at at stuff that is coming out and I’m, I’m curious how, how you think your book is set apart. Yeah, I think there’s two ways. One of the big ways is, it’s sort of a cliche in polyamory nom monogamy circles to say, you know, you might be thinking when you hear polyamory nom monogamy, you might be thinking all about sex parties and throuple like, and it, it’s like, it’s really not about sex.
(3m 55s):
It’s about shared calendars and processing lots of feelings and, and all of that. And like, yeah, that can be part of it, but like, it also is for many people a lot of the time also about sex. And so this book like does not shy away from the reality that like sex is for many people a part of the nonmonogamous experience, but not in a like salacious way. It says that also the sex is also special, the sex is also sacred and all the different ways that folks form family and friendship and community and Relationships to partnerships, like they can all be special. And so it’s sort of looking at, it’s a very sort of like sex positive, king conclusive version of non monogamy.
(4m 43s):
And then of course, like, it just like touches upon spirituality. Er Winston, one of the hosts of the multi podcast and in author like in her own right in her sort of like review of the book, she, she pointed out that most books sort of like dance around the topic of like religion or spirituality. And this sort of obviously deals with it head on. And I really try to make it such that if you’re like a devoutly religious person, you’re like a devout Christian, like this book is gonna resonate with you. And if you’re like, no, no, I’m spiritual but not religious, I think this I’ve, you know, it’ll also be applicable to you. And even if you’re like decidedly like a secular humanist or an atheist, the way that I talk about religion and spirituality is such that I think you’ll find resonances there as well.
(5m 24s):
And so it’s, it’s really about not just, it’s like not a practical how to do polyamory, but the sort of a celebration of all the different ways that all of our different types of connections can be like deeply meaningful. And so it’s a celebration of, of love and connection in all its various forms. Why, why was it important for you to, to pull on this thread of, of spirituality in the book? I mean, for me as a queer man, I know that my queerness was like so stigmatized growing up. It felt like such a point of shame and a place where I didn’t fit in. And I at some point sort of intellectually knew that that wasn’t true, but sort of knowing something in your head and feeling it in your body or two different experiences and it took me a long time to get to a place where I like knew in my body that queerness was good.
(6m 18s):
And I had a similar experience all over again when it came to non-monogamy where I sort of like, I had read the books about like how to do it And I like read the research about, you know, the existence of non-monogamy in other animals and humans, other human societies. And so I sort of intellectually knew that monogamy could be like a good and ethical thing, but it was like easy to sort of like feel like I wasn’t living up to society’s expectations. The gay movements like gay, you know, the gay lesbian movements like ideal of what a gay relationship is supposed to look like, that might me, maybe I was missing out on something or I just like had internalized a lot of the messages from our mono normative culture. And so then again, sort of the distinction between knowing something in my head and feeling in my body, it took a little bit of time to get there.
(7m 3s):
And I think that for me, pulling on this like thread of faith, spirituality, religion is not about like trying to against people that you can be polyamorous and go to church. So like obviously you can be polyamorous and go to church. I know lots of church calling polyamorous people, including the increasing number of, of polyamorous like pastors and and rabbis. But for me it was about like taking all of those messages that told me the ways that I was forming relationships were less than, and not just not only rejecting those but replacing like proactively replacing those with positive messages that celebrated the special gifts that nom brought into my life. And by calling that deeply meaningful and particularly special And I think like sacred is just like another snappy way of saying that, you know, Paul Tillek talks about God as being one’s ultimate concern.
(7m 59s):
He was a Christian, writer, researcher, academic, and Rabbi Arab Joshua Heschel talks about awe and wonder and radical amazement being sort of at the heart of a spiritual person’s orientation towards the divine. And so like that’s the type of faith and spirituality that I’m getting at that like the divine is already present in and amongst the ways that we love and fuck. And like really honoring that was a key part of like believing in my body like, oh no, this is not just like a good thing, like an okay thing, but an actually like a good thing and a positive way of relating. Okay, before we go any further, I’m wondering, Brian, would you read a portion of the book for us to give people a taste of, of what this book is like?
(8m 44s):
Yeah, sure. Let me find a spot. Oh actually there is a spot that talks actually about sort of God and what God is or is not and and sort of maybe we’ll tie into the conversation that we just were having. So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll read that section. This is from the chapter called The Polyamorous God. Whenever I’m at a dance club with my queer friends, I like to take a break and grab some water and fresh air. When I return to the dance floor before jumping back into the action, I linger a little on the edge, I gaze out on the floor and spot my friends. They’re dancing not just with their partners but also with their friends. I watch them shower each other with physical affection, hugs and kisses, winks and nods, silly faces and singing along pinch cheeks even making out casually they throw their arms around each other and hugs and embraces while they ebb and flow.
(9m 28s):
Dancing in a circle, grinding against each other, weaving in and out, finding new friends to hug and sing along with and even to kiss. If you squint your eyes just right, you can see the Holy Spirit right there on the dance floor of a queer club. In these moments, my intense focus on my friends and the strangers who fill the dance floor, my intentional remembering of all the people who have danced to music just like this for ages and ages, my appreciation for just how precious it is that we can live and dance and flirt queerly and nom monogamously in public safely. It is awesome. I am full of awe. I have this intuitive sense that I could see God on the dance floor of queer clubs for years before I read the works of Abraham Joshua Heschel for Heschel, our perception of awe and wonder are deeply intertwined, synonymous even with our experience of the divine.
(10m 12s):
And I asked for wonder, a spiritual anthology he wrote And I quote awe as an intuition of the dignity of all things. A realization that things are not only what they are, but also stand however remotely for something supreme awe as a sense of transcendence for the reference everywhere to a mystery beyond all things. It enables us to perceive in the world intimations of the divine, to sense the ultimate and the common and the simple to feel in the rush of the passing, the stillness of the eternal. What we cannot comprehend by analysis we become aware, become aware of in awe. And I don’t know how to define the nature of God. I can’t put God in a bottle or under a microscope. I can’t measure God with a machine. Would it be like the ones the scientist, the Scientologists use?
(10m 55s):
Surely not. There’s nothing in what we know about the universe and we know a lot even there was, even though there’s a lot we don’t understand to suggest that there is a conscious outside entity that interferes in our affairs to bend or break the laws of nature to guide the course of human affairs. God did not give you that touchdown or clear skies on your wedding day or save your ant from cancer. And if God did, what would it say? But all the people who didn’t make the touchdown, who had rain on their wedding day, who died from cancer, but I meet God on the dance floor every time I go to a queer queer club. Many of my friends say that God helped rescue them from clutches of devastating addiction. I, by myself am not God. I have stood on protest lines, had vigil held vigils and gone toe to toe with a virulently anti L-G-B-T-Q, religious leaders to proclaim the good news of the queer gospel.
(11m 41s):
And I felt something in my bones. Jesus says in Matthew 18 that where two or more three are gathered, there he is. Two, when people believe in something together and come together for a common cause, something happens that is greater than the sum of its parts, something divine happens in community. I don’t believe that there’s a conscious force outside the universe bending to its will, bending it to its will. And yet I believe that quote, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice and quote as Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Said, paraphrasing Theodore Parker, not because an outside force bends it, not because it must bend, but because we bend it. I believe that love wins and justice prevails not because of puppet master on high decrees that it must, but because something in our very nature is primed for love and justice.
(12m 27s):
Because something that you can feel even if you can’t quite measure happens when humans come together, when we help each other, when we do what is right, when we are willing to sacrifice for a higher cause, whatever that is, that connection, that longing, that energy, that urge, that which draws us outside of ourselves, that which courses through us with the same energy that is spent of coursing through the universe since the Big Bang, that which is much like light, which is somehow both a particle and a wave. Two things at once. It is exactingly precisely physical right down to the atoms that make us up. And it is also completely unmeasurable, but no less real spiritual, we might say. That is what humans have throughout the ages have called God.
(13m 9s):
And I believe that God is within and among us and for us. Beautiful. Thank you for, for sharing that. I’m curious what your kind of biggest dream is for this book. Oh, what a question. I mean, some total stranger on Good Reads left a review and part of it said, Murphy’s writing is to love what the ethical slut is to sex a paradigm shifting classic. And I am honored and humble that some stranger that I don’t know thinks that.
(13m 52s):
And so like I, if I like, I just wanted to reach everyone who needs to hear it. I think that that in a world that is increasingly torn apart and fractured and fragmented, I would like this book to be a healing bomb that says we are stronger together. And like that is yes, about like the ways in which we relate sexually and romantically to one another. But for me the book is like not just about sex and Relationships, it’s really about drawing the circle wider and imagining a love that is bigger and that encompasses our friends and our neighbors and our coworkers.
(14m 38s):
One in one part of the book I I talk about like, I think that polyamorous polys are really sort of beautiful models of communal care and community and mutual aid and support and like the way we sort of take care of partners, of partners, of partners is like really beautiful. And also if we only limit that to people that we want to have sex with and the people that we wanna have sex with, want to have sex with, we just end up reproducing desirability politics and racism and sexism and pat phobia and, and wines that divide us. And so I would like to sort of take all of the best practices from polyamory and merge those together with all the highest ideals of faith and spirituality.
(15m 21s):
And I think that together that phone forms like a potent elixir that it, like I would like to sort of transform all of our communities and to sort of not be, to learn to practice taking care of one another, to learn to feel hard feelings, uncomfortable feelings and not be overcome by them. And that is like a practice that serves you when you’re like thinking about your partner sleeping with another person. And it also is a practice that serves you when you’re thinking about like the coworker that’s annoying you, that it’s also a practice that serves you. Like when you see a person who is unfamiliar and not like you on the street corner and you decide to be trusting rather than afraid. And so like, yeah, I think I would like it to transform the ways in which that we relate to ourselves and our sexual romantic partners, but also I think I would like it to sort of cast, cast a bigger vision for like the way of the world to be.
(16m 13s):
Yeah. I I feel like you And I have always said that our work from the very beginning was was about like what gifts, queerness, and transness have to offer the church in the world, right? That it’s, that it’s always been about focusing on that giftedness and also I I am struck by like queerness and transness and polyamory shouldn’t just be about like what non-queer and non-trans and non poly people can get out of it, right? Like, and so I I I think that there’s a, there’s a line here that we’re walking with this conversation even about like there’s so many gifts, right?
(16m 54s):
That that poly lives and loves have to offer and teach non non-poly folks. And, but I’m curious about like, can you talk just, just for a minute about like what I don’t know the cel celebration of, of like polyamory, like you’ve already hinted at this, but, but it’s been about like, well it’s it’s about more than just that, but so I like just yeah, sell us, sell us on polyamory for a minute, I guess. Yeah. So I think that like all of what I just said, I think also applies to non-monogamous folks because I think sometimes it’s easy for us even as we practice non monogamy to still internalize all the things that the world has said about us.
(17m 36s):
Yeah, I’m thinking about like in my coaching practice, I work with a lot of people who are in the process of opening up a like existing up until now monogamous audiences relationship. And I often hear from them is like, we just want an open relationship. We don’t want polyamory that like polyamory feels scary And I understand where it comes from. It comes from this place of like somehow polyamory when you add in like feelings feels like threatening to the existing relationship or they imagine polyamory means I have to have another co-equal partner and that that is like somehow a demotion of the existing partner or, or whatever it might be, right?
(18m 18s):
And then like they’ll be going at it for a while and it’s like, oh, well you’ve been hooking up with the same person somewhat consistently for like six months now. Like presumably you have, you’re not a sociopath. Like you have like some amount of feelings for this person, right? That like the line between just an open relationship and polyamory is actually quite blurry. Like what is the difference between someone that you hook up with a friend with benefit and like a partner, lover, boyfriend, spouse, right? It’s really all about how you choose to describe yourself in your relationships. And so like I’m not here to like force anyone to use the word polyamory to describe themselves, but in one of the opening lines of the book, I say at it’s roots polyamory comes from a Greek and a Latin root Paul, meaning many Anne Marie, meaning loves many loves.
(19m 6s):
We all have had many loves. Like even if you’re monogamous audiences, like most people have had at least one romantic relationship before the one that they’re presently in. Certainly if you include non types of romantic love, like we already all have lots of different types of love. And so part of the book is saying like, you don’t have to be scared of the connections that fall outside of sort of your one and only. And if you’re someone who is in a couple a diad that that is like meaningful to you. I’m not, I’m not here to sell you on suddenly becoming being in a triad and if you’re monogamous audiences, I’m not gonna to sell you on becoming polyamorous. But I think that there is like some value in loosening up those distinctions between there’s like me and my one and only and it’s us against the entire rest of the world and saying like, what happens if I honor all of these other connections in my life, life as meaningful?
(19m 60s):
Even if it’s like we are kinky hookups and we meet once a month to have kinky sacks and like that’s the extent of it. I think that like there’s, there’s like some real beauty in being like, and also he’s special to me and also this connection is like meaningful and also I am enriched because of this person in my life. I can think of multiple people in my life who I’ve only ever had kinky sex with and also like they transformed me also just as much as long-term partners of mine have had of mine have. And so like I think that there’s like a real power and beauty and like naming all the different connections that we have as special and not being afraid of that. And so I think also if you’re someone who’s like on board with a nom monogamy, but maybe polyamory scares you, I think that like this book is not setting out to convince you to be polyamorous, but I think it will sort of like demystify what polyamory like could be for you.
(20m 53s):
And there’s also good section In this book about commitment and covenant And I think there’s like some real wisdom about whether you’re polyamorous or open or monogamous audiences. I think it’s important that you proactively choose that for yourself rather than just take it on as a default. And really you’ve got to like, in order, you have to be able to say no in order for consent to be present. Like we recognize that when it comes to sex, right? Like if you can’t say no, like you actually can’t consent to it. And so I think similarly, like if you can’t say no to monogamy, did you like really choose it? And so really earnestly putting all the options on the table and saying, this is what I want, this is like what works best for us in this moment is so much more powerful than just sort of being like, well, I have to be monogamous audiences.
(21m 41s):
I’ve always have been monogamous audiences. My partner’s just some monogamy, so I just have to accept it. And that is like also some wisdom that we can apply to our relationship with the divine and or with our spiritual communities that like it’s important that those commitments being just as intentionally chosen as well and have a whole section on making commitments with the divine and your spiritual communities in there as well. I’m, I’m curious, there might be some folks listening who are just like not sure about ethical non-monogamy or polyamory maybe, maybe from theological reasons, maybe from past relational reasons, maybe just ’cause like it feels scary, overwhelming, icky, like insert whatever here.
(22m 33s):
I know that this is not a book about how to, and it’s also not about a book about like why, why people should consider this, okay. Quote unquote. Okay. Yeah. But I’m curious like how would you answer that question? Would you answer that question if someone was like, is this a book for me? Yeah, I mean I actually address that in, I want to say like the intro or the first chapter that’s sort of like, as you read through the book, you will notice that I don’t like go through a chapter in verse defense of polyamory non monogamy.
(23m 14s):
And I don’t say, here are all of the arguments that are sort of against polyamory, non monogamy. And I’m gonna sort of like give them a debate club rebuttal to them because I think doing so cheapens this sort of like beautiful love and commitment and connection that we have and also like it’s an a historical position like most animal species are not monogamous audiences. Like non-monogamy is present in basically like every human culture in many human cultures, non-monogamy was like the norm and or celebrated. So like actually monogamy is sort of like the unnatural way of being, which I don’t mean that, I don’t mean unnatural in sort of like a bad way, but like you have to choose to be monogamous audiences and most people continue to experience sexual attraction to people who are not their partners.
(24m 5s):
And then they, they like choose to not act on that. And if those are your, there’s a way that you can sort of like make that hot and sexy, right? Like, but like if, if you choose to, like, that’s great, but it’s like not actually quote unquote like natural. And so like if anything like the monogamous audiences, you be the ones defending themselves. So I think like that’s my cheeky answer to it. But what I say in, in that section of the intro or the first chapter is that like, I think that through all of the examples of myself, my friends, my clients research from polyamory, nom monogamy and relationship wellbeing combined with sort of like the stories and the ways in which we like ways integrate and see ourselves in scripture and in our faith traditions. I think that sort of like the goodness of non-monogamy and polyamory will become like evident to you by the end of the book.
(24m 54s):
And so in that sense, like the book is just like such a celebration of all different ways of connecting beyond monogamy that I think if you’re sort of on the fence about like whether it’s like quote unquote, okay, as long as you’re willing to sort of like go in it with eyes open and heart open, I think that, I think you will walk away convinced maybe not that it’s right for you, but you could be able to see the beauty in it for other people. I know that you’ve got a couple of pre-order bonuses for folks that pre-order the book, and so if folks are interested in grabbing one of those, where is the best place for them to do that?
(25m 34s):
Yep. You go to my website, which is, this is bgm.com/book. I’m also, this is bgm on all the social medias. It’s one, one phrase for everywhere. This is bgm.com/book. We’ll have links to all of like the major online places to buy the book from, as well as a few of my favorite local spots to order from. You can get it from literally anywhere books are sold. That page will also have a link to submit and claim the bonuses. I’m gonna send out some stickers that are designed by some queer artists and you also get some like digital resources around both relationships and spirituality. And if you’re interested in some more personal and more sexy slash scandalous reflections, I’d be happy to add you to my close friends on Instagram as well.
(26m 17s):
So all that is that, this is bgm.com/book And as a reminder, this book comes out on September 18th. I, it’s such a needed and exciting book. I’m so, so thrilled. I have pre-ordered my copy. I’m very excited to get my hands on it and, and dive into it. I also know that you’ve got a couple of launch events for folks that are on, on the east coast at this precise moment that is where the launch events are happening. So where, can you share a little bit more about those events? Yeah, if you are in or near or able to get to New York City, I would love to have you at the sort of like official release party.
(26m 60s):
It’s Friday, September 19th at Judson Memorial in New York City. That’s in the evening, I believe doors will open at six 30. We’re still at the time of this recording nailing down the logistics all. I’ll also like, make sure that this is bgm.com/book has a link to RCP for that. It’s free all, they’re welcome. Bring your friends and your partners and your metamours and your parents, whoever you wanna come with can come, I’m working on an event in DC at some point TBD and I’m also working on an event in Los Angeles, also TBD potentially in early October. So if you are are in one of those places, add join the mailing list.
(27m 42s):
Or on that page I’ll put a little, like, bring me to your city and I’ll start collecting locations and email addresses with folks in other cities. And then like relatedly, if you’re at a church or a synagogue or a school or a bookstore and you would like me to come do a book event in your city, if you and your folks can get me there, I will. I’ll come for for free. So just reach out. Yeah, so once again, Love Beyond Monogamy by Brian G Murphy comes out on September 18th. Pre-order your copy, get it, get one for your friends, get one for everyone in your life. It’s gonna be a beautiful book and you’re gonna wanna get it as soon as it comes out.
(28m 22s):
Ryan, thank you for this conversation and we’ll see you all next week. Thanks much. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.
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The longest running podcast for and by LGBTQ Christians and other queer people of faith and spiritual seeker. Hosted by Fr. Shannon TL Kearns, a transgender Christian priest and Brian G. Murphy, a…