“Transsexuals are the stormtroopers of the future.” So says Genesis P-Orridge, the iconic, visionary musician who has fronted influential bands like Psychic TV and Throbbing Gristle. While P-Orridge isn’t transgender — they* call themselves a pandrogyne — their partner in this Talkhouse Music Podcast, Against Me! frontwoman Laura Jane Grace, came out as transgender in 2012. Still, as P-Orridge points out, both musicians have done something very brave: they’ve transitioned, in one way or another, in front of their audience. And it was P-Orridge who paved the way. As Grace says here, “Someone like yourself is so important to me.”

P-Orridge and Grace might hail from different generations, countries and musical communities, but they found plenty to talk about: what it was like to transition in public, the mind-body duality, paranormal phenomena, the perennial bathroom problem, the perennnial airport screening problem, courage, death, Caitlyn Jenner, a hilarious exchange about what to wear on stage, dealing with photographers who want you to show your boobs, and what P-Orridge calls “a gradual shift in the way that gender and sexuality are perceived in our species.”

This is one of the more fascinating and potentially visionary exchanges we’ve ever had on the Talkhouse Podcast. It’s also one of the more risqué, so if you’re easily offended, maybe you’ll want to check out one of our other podcasts.

* A word about pronouns: P-Orridge call themselves “we” because they feel at one with their late wife Lady Jaye. Much more about that in the podcast.