It’s easy to look at craft brewers as a single group of people with the same intent, the same ethos, the same vision for the future. But part of the goal for Good Beer Hunting, and this podcast in particular, is to defy that conventional wisdom. Sure, craft brewers all share a technical definition under the Brewers Association — but that’s rarely the way a brewer would talk about themselves. Once you get past the marketing, or the trends, or the consumer demands of craft beer, things get more complicated and much more honest. Given a chance, most brewers are relieved to put down the burden of carrying the craft beer banner, and instead, talk about something more personal, something with more curiosity and life than any definition, or trend, or cynical debate, or hot take could possibly reveal. if you’ve sat down at the bar with me, and many of you probably have at this point, you’ve probably heard me talk about how breweries often seem like they’re all part of the same craft beer mania that’s driving the current market toward double-digit growth in the past decade, —but in reality, many of them are part of a story that’s much longer, more personal, and bends toward a slower, more interesting future. Some breweries make beer, some make money, and plenty do both. And some will change or grow so slowly, that it’ll take a generation before you really see the path they’re on. I think today’s guest is one of those slow, but steady movers. How slow and how steady is yet to be seen. But since his days at Goose Island where he was known for his management of the barrel program, John Laffler has gone on to start one of Chicago’s most intriguing breweries. The beers are often far ahead of any trends. The branding is unique to the point of perplexing. And after some early lessons out of the gate, they’re finding a grove all their own. They’ve somehow become one of Chicago’s favorite everyday six-pack brewers, and one of the nation’s most exotic artisans brewers at the same time. And a lot of it has to do with what John calls “otherness"

The beer industry has historically survived and thrived off of streamlines business models. Whether it’s big ideas like Augustus Busch’s refrigerated rail cars, or a national distribution system, or small ideas like having a flagship beer, and seasonals. Models like this are ingrained in the way beer is made, bought, and sold. But the last decade of brewing has seen more than just a proliferation of beer styles — we’ve seen an increasing diversity in business models as well. It’s rare to find a new brewery these days that doesn’t have a taproom, or self-distribution in some capacity. But what happens when you get caught between big shifts in the industry? When the business model you designed is suddenly stuck, like the end of a branch on an evolutionary tree, caught between a model that worked for the breweries that came before you, but seems almost irrelevant to the breweries who come right after you?

Seth has written for countless magazines, about fashion, travel, food and beverage, and over the years, he worked his way into the middle of some really interesting projects. He started an event series called The Overserved Society (which is still on a long hiatus), where he and a friend researched old cocktails and re-invented them for a private pop-up party somewhere in the city every couple of months. This is around the time I got to know Seth well and they‘re still some of my favorite all-time parties. And most recently he’s helped get a new magazine off the ground, called Collective Quarterly. It’s a stunning cultural document, with a really unique business model. Now in it’s third issue, titled Mad River after the Vermont Landscape they explored together, the magazine seems to be gaining the traction they all hoped it would. It’s a growing group of artists, Collective is part of the concept after all, and Seth is just one small piece of it. So while we do talk about this project, which is all but consuming him at the moment, the larger discussion with Seth digs into his writing history as a beat reporter down in Louisiana, his aspirational college days, and how all of his ambitions and skills have routed him in to an area he hesitantly calls Soft Journalism. There are a lot of parallels here with Good Beer Hunting’s place in the world, where we aim to create cultural documents ourselves, not just the reporting, and when you’re embedded that deeply and emotionally in a story, everything changes, and it’s uncomfortable, it’s physically and mentally challenging, and hopefully, it’s beautiful.

Today’s interview is long overdue. But that doesn’t surprise me, because if there’s anyone in beer that hates attention, it’s this guy. Andres Araya of 5 Rabbit Cerveceria in Bedford Park, IL, just beyond the city limits of Chicago by Midway Airport. I first met Andres and his partners, which included Randy Mosher, back in 2012 when they were working their way into the market through contract brewing. It wasn’t long before they were struggling to get the beer right and ran into severe creative limitations, and Andres wasted no time in building his own brewery, far ahead of schedule. He wanted control over his beer. Since then, they’ve gone on to be a rock solid brewery in Chicago, making some of the most creative beers I’ve seen. A lulo fruit double IPA, a cricket gose, the Paletas beers that are super low abv, popsicle-inspired beers. If you can’t already tell, they’re latin-inspired, and perhaps the first in the US to be so. My relationship with Andres may have started in 2012, but thing really got interesting a couple years later - once he had his brewery built, he had a talented production brewer from Goose Island now on the team, and some other partnership battles behind him, Andres was ready to flip the switch and express the 5 Rabbit vision the way he had always imagined it. And he brought me on board to help him realize it. We worked on the branding, the portfolio, planning out sales and production, and articulating some of the more creative things he wanted to do. We did it as a team, about 5 of us together over the course of a couple months. And once we got the plan and vision in place, they went after it. And I’m excited to see them flourishing into the brewery they always had the talent and the determination to be. I think they’re delivering some of the most creative, and ambitious beer in the midwest.

Read more about this major announcement from 18th Street Brewery on Good Beer Hunting

You’ve heard a lot of stories on the GBH Podcast from entrepreneurs who started up, learned some hard lessons, and then found their groove. And today is another great example of that with Jeff Gill of Tallgrass Brewing out of Manhattan, Kansas. It’s my first time meeting Jeff. All I’ve seen of Tallgrass was when he hit the market fast with his 16oz cans, long before most others did, and then saw a modest pullback in the market. I’d always wondered what the story was with this brewery, and what their approach to markets like Chicago were all about. So when Jeff reached out, I was happy to take the time to dig in. And there are some great lessons in here for all of us, about not spreading yourself too thin, about not looking at all opportunities the same way, and generally trying to contain your ambitions against a real, smart plan for controlled growth. Jeff is an engineer by trade, so you’d think that a guy like him wouldn’t be susceptible to the emotions of a dynamic market like craft beer — but this thing can be so exciting, it really gets to the best of us at times. But Jeff’s smart. And more importantly, he’s self-reflective. He looked at his mistakes, owned up to them, made a real plan to move ahead, and now he sticks to that methodical plan come hell or high water. It’s a great story of how ambition can be balanced by a healthy team, and partners that can serve as a gut check, especially in the face of wide-open opportunities that are hard to turn down. And it sounds, and tastes, like he’s hitting his stride.

Kevin Zielinski is the founder of of E. Z. Orchards cider. E.Z., which stands for his great great grandfather’s name, Edward Zielinski, walked off the Oregon trail and start the family agriculture business about 150 years ago, is an operation unlike any other in the US. Kevin is still working the family farm, shepherding the orchard, growing every apple he uses, right there on his plot in the Wilammete valley. He presses into the final blend, he naturally ferments, and he takes it very, very slow. All this effort, and in some cases, withholding intervention, results in some of the most exquisite ciders being made in the US, and some would argue the world. This past year, I had a chance to work with Kevin. He was looking for some help with his story and website (he didn’t have a website at all) and I went out to spend a few days with him in the orchard. It was everything I’d hoped it would be. And for a photographer like me, it was sublime. In fact, I’m heading there again this weekend to shoot the harvest. Kevin’s already been texting me photos from the top of the old tractor, showing me the apples, peaches and pears that are ready to go. Sometime this fall, you’ll see the fruit of that labor as well. But after hearing Kevin’s story, and the story of the family farm, his process, and his vision for cider, I was motivated to share it with you all through the podcast. He was in Chicago dropping his son off at college downstate, and I asked him to come to the studio, share some of his best cider, and tell us everything he could. And it’s important to me, because as these US side makers start to consider putting trees into the ground for the first time, I hope they can find some wisdom in Kevin’s approach. If nothing else, it’ll result in the craft cider segment finding a real voice.

Dave is a quality dude. One of the guys that helped make Colorado craft beer such a cultural flashpoint in the mid 90s. He’s one of those guys with the scrappy start-up story, who ground his way through the shakeout and survived, and he’s one of the guys that still finding his way 20 years later in a hyper competitive market. When I started drinking craft beer, Ska Brewing was one of the most exciting brands in the game. Hoppy styles, exciting branding, funny beer names and inside jokes, elements that are indicative of his brewing generation. But what’s been amazing to see is that Dave and his team keep finding new things to do. They might not get the mainstream buzz they used to when anything in a can from Colorado was sought-after, but for me, their subtle counter-market plays have kept me coming back year after year. Dave is also one of those brewers that has a big decision to make. He’s regional, mid-sized, and he’s watching as so many of his peers are going for broke, trying to grow as fast as they can before another shakeout comes along. We didn’t know this at the time, but in the two weeks following this conversation, Saint Archer would sell a majority stake to MillerCoors, Virtue Cider would Sell to AB, and of course, Lagunitas sold half their operation to Heineken. These are all now-or-never moves for people who either want to shoot the moon, play with the big boys, or cash out. Dave isn’t exactly interested in any of those. He’s gone through his growth phase, more than one. He’s been through the grind and he knows how much of a grind another major phase would be. And he’s part of a growing number of brewers that I’ve been spending time with that are starting to wonder if the terms "craft beer" and “growth" have been too synonymous for too long. Maybe, just maybe, it’s okay to find a comfort zone, and actually enjoy the thing you’ve built instead of constantly adding gasoline to a fire you can’t hope to control.

Almanac Beer Co partners with fruit farmers in California the way others do with hop farmers, ensuring they have access to some of the most interesting and unusual flavors for their Farm to Bottle series. And their pale side is as good as most in a discerning west coast market. Their packaging is beautiful, their concept comes to life, and the beer delivers on the promise of something different. All this from Jesse Friedman and Damian Fagan, two home brewers who went the gypsy route, and are now on their way to creating a northern California institution with their own barrel aging facility.

This week’s episode with Garrett Oliver of Brooklyn Brewery was recorded at the studio with a live audience. I’m having a blast hosting these small events where we get to hang out, have a conversation, taste through some special stuff and mill around long after the recording is over. If you haven’t already, and you’re in Chicago, you should absolutely watch out for these announcements. If I wasn’t the one hosting them, I’d be attending them. Because there’s nothing else quite like it. This particular event was hosted in collaboration with Brooklyn Brewery as part of their nationwide Mash Tour. They’ve been at this thing for awhile now, and I’m always amazed by how much they pull off every time they come to town. Panel discussions, secret dinners, debates and tastings — the Mash Tour is a great example of what a brewery can do when they’ve reached a certain size and awareness level. At some point, you become a platform for others to participate in, and Brooklyn seems to be loving it. Especially Steve Hindy, one of Brooklyn’s Original founders, and he engages fellow brewers and consumers in the issues that surround craft beer in what he’s refers to as the continuing “revolution." Alongside Steve Hindy is another powerful voice for Brooklyn Brewery, Garrett Oliver. While they both share an ambition for the role that beer can play in our lives, Garrett’s focus is much less on the day-to-day business of a brewery, and more on the artistic, pure discovery, and culinary aspects of the brewing act. As Brooklyn’s brewmaster, he’s created industry-changing recipes, he’s written critical books like the Oxford companion to beer, and the Brewmasters Table, and he’s traveled the world to work with some of our most historical and newest brewers alike in a quest for even more opportunities within beer. When we talk about icons in american craft brewing, names like Ken Grossman, Jim Koch, Sam Calagione, and a few others immediately come to mind. And for many people who love the romantic, artistic and culinary side of brewering, few names pop up faster that Garrett’s. Getting a chance to talk to him in the GBH studio with a crowd of about 60 people was an uncommon experience. It’s the first time he’s joined a Brooklyn Mash Tour. And we celebrated with some special "ghost bottles," as he calls them, from his personal stash, and then whiled the night away in the back yard with some summer ale sausages from Butcher & Larder on the grill. For a guy like Garrett, with so many amazing beer memories that seem untouchable, this was one of ours, and we greatly appreciate him taking the time to join us and we appreciate the entire brooklyn brewery crew lead by Caitlin van Horn and Clare Deitzen for helping make it all possible.