Dave Butler has written 2 books that deal with temple theology in the Book of Mormon: "Plain & Precious Things" and "The Goodness & the Mysteries." We'll get acquainted with Dave and he'll tell us that temple theology begins in verse 1 of the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/NiEJx6QmgLE

Don’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

In our final conversation with Dr Matthew Bowman, we'll talk about the tensions between LDS Church leaders and BYU faculty. Is there academic freedom at BYU? Should there be more academic freedom for faculty if BYU wants to become the Harvard of the West? Sign up for our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter to check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/MzlFBXzO3is

 

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Academic Freedom at BYU

Interview

GT  00:28  One last topic I want to cover and then I'll let you go. There was an article in the Salt Lake Tribune earlier this year that talked about a crackdown at BYU. I know Casey Griffiths wrote an amazing article on The Chicago Experiment, it was called. Basically, in summary— Casey talked about it on one of my interviews, but [here is] just a brief summary/thumbnail. It seems like the LDS Church was embracing Divinity School for seminary teachers. And they sent a few to the University of Chicago, a liberal theological school. They didn't like the results. J. Reuben Clark came in, cracked some heads, started firing people that were way too liberal and  pulled back [the Church] towards anti-evolution, things like that. It seems to me there's been this roller coaster of, okay, we'll allow some liberal. Now we're going to go conservative, liberal, conservative. And it seems like and tell me if you agree with the statement. At BYU right now, and I love that you're an outsider, that you're at Claremont and can look at this from a faraway position. There's a little bit like this J. Reuben Clark time where they're retrenching. We're going more conservative at BYU. Can you comment on that?

Matthew  02:03  Yeah. So the first, and this may not be a surprise at this point. The first thing I would say is I push back on the liberal/conservative polarity there.

GT  02:11  I can't help it, I'm sorry.

Matthew  02:13  Yeah, there's a lot of things going on. And I think with the Chicago Experiment. It wasn't simply kind of liberal versus conservative. It was outside scholarship versus no outside scholarship. The question being, when we talk about religion, when we teach about religion, do we rely on these Protestant Divinity School professors who have written books about the Bible? Or do we rely on prophets and revelation? Now for many, I think, Latter-day Saints today, and even over the past 100 years, the equivocation there might be, if we rely on just repeating what the prophet said in revelation, then that must mean we're going to be against evolution and for creationism and all of that. But that's not necessarily the case. There were a lot of Church leaders in the early 20th century, who were pro-evolution and who...

GT  02:16  Widtsoe, Talmage. They were all non-American though. Right?

Matthew  02:42  Yeah, who were really interested in this. And it's an interesting accident of history, that within the LDS Church, that the idea of orthodoxy came to be associated with conservative...

GT  03:23  The opposite happened in the Community of Christ. They're all liberal, and they kicked out all the conservatives.

Matthew  03:27  Right, again, simplification. But, nonetheless, this shows that the idea that you've got maybe two vectors here, the idea of friendliness to the outside world, the idea of loyalty to church leadership. Those two things cross in interesting ways, and then go in one direction in the LDS Church, as you say. But I think this give and take at BYU has been pretty interesting. A lot of it has to do with, I think, and I should say that some of this is speculation on my part. But it appears to me, that what may be happening is that there is a worry among the leadership in the Church Educational System, about these processes we've been talking about [with] disaffiliation among younger people.

Dr Mary Jane Woodger has co-written several books with Dr Casey Griffiths. She share a few of her favorite relics of Restoration. We'll also talk about her future projects. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newletter

https://youtu.be/P03yC3cQDDQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXz

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

After the Communists led a coup in Czechoslavakia and installed a friendly government there, their Most Wanted Man was LDS Mission President Wallace Toronto. While he was there, he was placed under 24 hour surveillance, deported, and then placed on the Most Wanted list by Communist leaders in Czechoslavakia. How did he continue to lead the church despite this status? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/3XHzm86-Y4o

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXz

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

How did the Church react when Hitler took over Czechoslavakia? Wallace Toronto was mission president and his biography Mary Jane Woodger details the escapate plans which were used more than once! She also details how Wally helped from LDS missionaries who were imprisoned. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/aLVpD9dSDX8

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXz

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Was Wallace Toronto a mission president or spy? Wallace served as mission president in Czechoslovakia during both the Nazi and Communist regimes. Dr Mary Jane Woodger has written an amazing biography of this man called "Mission President or Spy?" In this first conversation, we'll talk about his grandfather's conversion from Italy and his major contribution to the Nauvoo Temple. We'll also discuss Wally's first mission to Czechoslavakia. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/1oNnaH7Mc6M

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mary Jane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bij4PCBgtWo&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5JYmiQo4z3ZGtxxZazsJXz

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

I asked Janice Allred how she views the LDS Church today, and if she had advice for LDS Church Leaders. How should ward members treat the excommunicated? We share a mini-episode of Kurt Francom's "Leading Saints" podcast on how members should reach out to excommunicated members. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/XkTh-8wRbRE

 

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Janice's View of Today's Church

Interview

GT  00:35  Do you have any thoughts on the Church today? Has it changed in any way closer to any of your positions that you got in trouble for?

Janice  00:50  No, I don't think so. I mean, there there are definitely changes, which we can look at and say these are for the good. And some of those have to do with womens position in the Church. But I still say that there is this authoritarianism, and this orthodoxy, shall we say, in terms of beliefs. So yes, many changes have been made. However, do I think the Church is closer to being the true Church of Christ? No.

GT  01:25  Is the Church in apostasy?

Janice  01:27  The Church is always in apostasy. {both laughing} That was one of the things I said in my paper that got me in trouble. Anyone who has read the scriptures knows that the Church always goes into apostasy. That doesn't mean every person who is in the Church is in apostasy. But yeah, I can see definite signs that the Church, as a whole, is in apostasy. And one of them is that the leaders of the church require the members to say that they're prophets, seers and revelators, when they clearly are not.

GT  02:04  You know, I always like to look at the Community of Christ. And even there's a Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Independence. I just interviewed their prophet a few weeks ago. Terry Patience is his name. They have, hopefully I have my numbers, right, 161 revelations. The Community of Christ has 156 if I have that, right. Hopefully I have that right. And we're stuck at 138.

Janice  02:32  I know. So that's interesting. The Community of Christ is an interesting group. One of the reasons I would not go to them is they have moved away from regarding Joseph as a prophet, and the First Vision and the Book of Mormon. They've moved away from all of that, and have positioned themselves more in to mainstream Protestantism, which is, they have many good things. But to me, that's one reason why I wouldn't be interested in joining them.

GT  03:07  So would you view them, because I'm trying to remember, was it President [Grant] McMurray wanted to make them a prophetic people. And they've had, since the 1990s, probably at least a dozen revelations. The Remnant Church, it's funny because they think that the RLDS Church went into apostasy back after Israel Smith. I think he was the last Prophet. They didn't like [W.] Wallace or the next Wallace [B] especially Wally B. who allowed women to hold the priesthood.

Janice  03:47  I would guess that that's one of their main disagreements with them. But, I don't think it's their main one. I think moving away from Joseph as a prophet is, as well.

GT  03:57  Definitely, but they threw out everything from Israel forward. And then they've added a whole bunch more revelations. Recently, Terry Patience has added, I think he said five, if I remember right. And they have a room in their headquarters that he wanted as a School of the Prophets, and it's kind of Kirtland looking. Due to the structure of the building, they couldn't put pulpits at both ends. So, they have them in the front, just because of the way the layout was. But it was interesting to me. The fundamentalists, Lindsay Hansen Park jokes. "You throw a rock and you're going to hit a prophet," especially down in Short Creek. And we're really, we haven't had anything since, really, 1978. Right?

Janice  04:00  Yeah.

Abish is usually seen as a minor character in the Book of Mormon, but Dr Val Larsen thinks she likely had visions of God and perhaps Heavenly Mother. He will talk more about this amazing Book of Mormon woman, and show that her name has religious significance. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/LZJxXC5l2s0

Don’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Abish

Val  00:37  Back to the story we're telling here. Everybody else, Lamoni, Ammon, all the other servants, they're out cold. The one exception is Abish, the only long-standing Christian in the room.

GT  00:53  She's a Lamanite, by the way.

Val  00:54  A Lamanite woman, one of three women, or is it four? Let me think. Sariah, Mary-- four, Abish and then they've got the one representative of an evil woman, right, Isabel?

GT  01:10  Oh, and Eve. Don't they have Eve, too? So, there's five.

Val  01:13  Oh, yeah. Okay, five. Yes, good, Eve. But Isabel is paradigmatic...

GT  01:19  Isabel, the harlot.

Val  01:20  The harlot, right, exactly. So, you have that. But Abish is the only long-standing Christian here. She's been a Christian longer than Ammon, a lot longer than Ammon. So, this is the only person whose own visions and seasoning have prepared her to consciously endure a visitation of such spiritual power. So, when the spiritual power comes, it knocks everybody else out, but not Abish. I'm suggesting here, this isn't a first encounter for her. It's like the story of that vision that Joseph and Sidney had.

GT  01:20  I was just thinking of that.

Val  02:03  Joseph is there. He's perfectly fine, and Sidney is wiped out. Well, I think a similar dynamic is happening here. Everybody else is wiped out by this experience of being carried into the presence of God. But not Abish, because this is not unfamiliar to her. That is my argument here. Abish knows what's happening to the others. She knew that they were, that it was the power of God. So, when she sees this, she knows what's going on. And how is that? Most likely, I'm arguing here, because she has previously had the same experience, a remarkable vision of her father. This phrasing is ambiguous, did Abish see her earthly father in vision? Did her earthly father have a vision he told her about? It was certainly a vision of her Heavenly Father in the sense of having been caused by God. But, in this context, where everybody else seems to be seeing God in vision, the most likely meaning is that Abish, also, had a remarkable vision of her Heavenly Father, in which she directly experienced the power of God, the same way that Lehi, Nephi and now Lamoni and the Queen and all the other servants are experiencing it. It would be odd if she, the longest-standing believer in the group, had the least impressive conversion experience. Everybody else is off in the presence of God. But Abish, the one person who is the most long-standing, faithful person, she is excluded from this? I don't think that's what happened.

Val  02:11  Now, this is a novel, innovative part of our analysis in the paper here. Because I've never seen it. I've heard many times, every time you discuss this, and Adam did it, too, in his reading, did she see her father in vision? Or did her father have a vision and share that with her as a way of converting her? But I think it's something much greater than that. She had a vision, the same vision all these other people are having. So, why don't we read it that way? If we do, that puts her in with all these other people, and actually makes her the first of them, the most seasoned of them. And we're going to see, she's going to take the lead in bringing them all back. So, the one thing that might undercut this interpretation, this idea that Abish had a vision...

Dr Larsen disputes the notion that Nauvoo doctrines are not in the Book of Mormon. He says the Orthodox doctrine of theosis, or what LDS would call Exaltation is in the Book of Mormon. We'll examine the stories of Ammon, Aaron, & Lamoni to discuss how theosis is in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/YPwUAiyJoFo

Don’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Alma the Elder & Ammon

Val  00:37  Let's go on to Alma the Elder, which is one of the examples of what would have been one of the first things that Joseph translates when he gets into the Book of Mosiah then, the story of Alma the Elder. It's a little more subtle here, but it's there. The equation of God and man is there. The first Alma begins his ministry as one of the priests of Noah. His beliefs are like those of the other priests. They didn't include Christ. But having heard Abinadi preach, Alma learns about Christ and begins to teach others who will listen. In a narrative containing elements of Nephi's vision, he takes his followers to a fountain of pure water, near a grove of trees, a place reminiscent of the fountain of living waters near the tree of life in Nephi's vision. There in the pure, maternal waters of Mormon, Alma begins baptizing, which is also what happens right there in Nephi's vision. The baptism of Christ immediately follows. That constellation of symbols is replicated here. So, as Lehi, Sariah, Sam and Nephi were enrolled in the Divine Council by partaking of the fruit in Lehi's dream, Alma's followers are enrolled through baptism. These converts covenant to bear one another's burdens that they may be light, to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, our baptismal covenant we're all familiar with. In order to have Christ's spirit more abundantly with them, they will stand as a witness of God at all times, and in all things. And having done these, they are filled with the grace. So, that's what they do.

Val  02:04  What's striking is the fact that the text, later describes God as doing the same things, using nearly identical language. By showing that God makes and fulfills the same covenants that the people make, the text underscores the fact that those who are baptized in the waters of Mormon have joined the Divine Council, the divine community. We see the sameness in the human and divine covenants when the Lord, Himself, repeating the baptismal covenant language, fulfills the covenant obligations that the people took upon themselves. Alma's people fall into the hands of Noah's priests who oppress them by loading them with tasks and forbidding them to pray. And when the people silently pray for relief, the Lord, echoing their baptismal covenant, comforts them. He says, “Lift up your heads, and be of good comfort." He bears their burdens, that they may be light. "I will ease the burdens put upon your shoulders, that you cannot feel them. And now the burdens which were laid upon them, his brethren, were made light." Here, by using the language of our baptismal covenant, and by doing the things we covenant to do, the Lord signifies that the covenant we make is the same covenant He makes.  He and all the Divine Council members are obligated to serve Alma and his people by the same covenant that obligates them to serve each other. Having made and kept the same covenants as the gods, Alma's converts are enrolled in the So'od Elohim, the Divine Council, like Jacob wrestling with God face to face at Peniel, which means face of God. The people making the exact same covenant God makes marks the fact that God is fundamentally the same kind of being as we are. So, Jacob wrestling with God. That's a corporeal being, and that's that older theology. And here, these people,

We're continuing our conversation with Dr Val Larsen from James Mason University. Dr Larsen says Ammon's story is an example of exaltation or theosis. He disputes the notion that Nauvoo doctrines are not in the Book of Mormon. We'll examine the stories of Ammon, Aaron, & Lamoni to discuss how theosis is in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/2K9qII_X1Q0

Don’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved