Many people claim that distinctive LDS doctrines like temple ceremonies, exaltation/theosis, and heavenly mother are not found in the Book of Mormon. But Dr Val Larsen from James Mason Univ disagrees. In our second interview with Val, he will touch on his research which shows these distinctive LDS doctrines are found in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/N8IpSUVSW1I

Don’t miss our other conversations with Val: https://gospeltangents.com/people/val-larsen/

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Distinctive LDS Doctrines ARE in Book of Mormon

Interview

GT  00:30  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have Dr. Val Larsen back on the show. Last time, we talked for three hours, but that wasn't nearly enough.

Val  00:41  I'm not sure about that from your viewers point of view. {both laughing}

GT  00:47  And so we want to finish that conversation. It was about the Book of Mormon. Before we do that, though, can you just give us a brief rundown of who you are, where you work and where you live?

Val  01:00  I am a professor of marketing at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia. I've been there since 2000. I did teach English, for a time, at Virginia Tech University.

GT  01:16  Because one Ph.D. is not enough. You had to get two.

Val  01:20  Well, yes. The second one was a lot more lucrative than the first. {both laughing} Marketing pays a lot better than English does. It's a joy to teach on either subject, but I've been very fortunate to have the career I've had.

GT  01:39  That's awesome.

Val  01:40  I should say that the English Ph.D., has fed into this work that I do in the Book of Mormon, much more than the Marketing Ph.D. does. But basically, I got good training in both the humanities and the social sciences, because marketing is essentially a social science. So, it's great to be able to approach all these different subjects from multiple perspectives. You do this a lot in all your interviews, like Ryan Cragun was pure social science.

GT  02:10  Right.

Val  02:11  But, you have a lot of literary-type approaches to that, like that Rosalynde Welch interview that you did, was a literary approach to the scripture. So, it all brings insight and knowledge. My training helps me appreciate both.

.GT  02:27  Yeah, and Rosalynde's a PhD in English, too. You guys have a lot of synergy there. And we're going to talk about that interview, too.

Val  02:33  Yeah, a little bit.

GT  02:35  I'm excited. And then, I probably, we keep talking about the Book of Mormon, which is fine, and it's great. But one of these days, I need to get some marketing help. Do you do free consulting for...

Val  02:48  I'm happy to talk with you about any marketing questions that you want to talk about.

GT  02:51  All right, all right!

Val  02:52  How useful it will be, keep in mind, I'm an academic, not a practitioner. So, all we know is theory. We don't know how to actually do anything. {both laughing}

GT  03:00  All right. Well, cool. Well, let's talk about the Book of Mormon.

Val  03:06  Okay.

GT  03:06  I'll let you take it away. Where are we going?

Val  03:09  All right. So, as I mentioned at the beginning of our last interview, what I say in these interviews, could be seen as a response to Steve Pynakker, your Evangelical friend, who's also a friend of Joseph Smith and the Restoration. Steve's a charitable guy, a devoted Protestant, follower of Christ, who builds bridges to others, as Christ would have us do.

GT  03:31  People say he's not a true evangelical because he likes Joseph Smith.

Val  03:35  I know. But he's a true follower of Christ, I think we would certainly agree. Anyway, Steve said he likes the Book of Mormon, in part; I mentioned this last time, because there isn't any Utah Mormon theology in it.

I was surprised to there are a lot of racial myths among Fundamentalist groups to support a priesthood/temple ban. I was also surprised to learn that one of the first Mormon Allreds married a woman with so-called "black blood." How does the Allred Group (aka AUB) deal with this? It turns out, not well! Moroni Jessop shares this interesting genealogy in the conclusion to our conversation and also shares racial myths about the ban. Check it out!

https://youtu.be/0KSS-iwUWgQ

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Was the seer stone or Urim & Thummim used for translating the Book of Mormon. Scott Vance tells why he thinks a seer stone was used. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/9Rjv9Cj2WVs

Don’t miss our other conversations with Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbGWEo-o2A&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5XhDtDEr-SKFuqaWHPPlrJ

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Seer Stones vs Urim & Thummim

GT  00:46   Because we can segue into seer stones, if you want to.

Scott  00:51   Sure. Yeah, let's do that.

GT  00:52  All right. So, I've recently talked to Jim Lucas and Jonathan Neville. They just came out with a book, By Means of the Urim and Thummim. They really promote Joseph and Oliver as saying that the Urim and Thummim was used. And they have to, what I would say, discredit Emma and David Whitmer, especially, and others that say a seer stone was used. This seems to be one of your favorite topics. And let's dive into there.

Scott  01:28  Sure. And it is a favorite topic of mine because it was something that I was totally unaware of. I considered myself a reasonably diligent and faithful member, when I was a member. I thought I knew the history as well as anybody. I obviously didn't. But I had heard nothing about seer stones. And so when I finally read Brodie's book, and it talked about seer stones, I was like, "Brodie made some mistakes." Even though I left the church, I still didn't believe that Joseph Smith had used a brown seer stone.

GT  01:57  Oh.

Scott  01:58  So, come 2015, when the church...

GT  02:00   So your team Urim and Thummim, too, or at least used to be?

Scott  02:02  Well, I was, in the sense that I was like, "There's no way that the Church would not tell the truth about this. Because why would they be deceptive about this?" It didn't make any sense to me. So, I was like, "a seer stone? No. No."  Anyway, 2015 comes along, and they publish a picture of the seer stone, and I'm taken by surprise.

GT  02:22  Okay.

Scott  02:23  And so I start researching the topic.

GT  02:24  Was that the white seer stone or the brown seer stone?

Scott  02:27  The brown one was the one that they published, obviously.

GT  02:30  Well, they've got the white one, too.

Scott  02:33  So here's where I get frustrated, because there are accounts that they have the white one and Quinn has published, and others have published that they do have the white one. I've asked--is it Keith Erekson?

GT  02:44  He's at Church History Library?

Scott  02:45  Yes, he's in charge of it. So, he gets to keep the seer stones. I've asked, "Do you have the white one?" He's like, 'No.'

GT  02:51  Because I've seen, I've got a book with a white seer stone on the cover.

Scott  02:55   Yeah, that's an artist's depiction. And, in effect, yeah.

GT  02:59  Okay.

Scott  03:00   Yep. I don't know who has seen the white one and who has the white one. I had believed, until Keith said that, that the Church had it. And at this point, I just don't know. I don't know who to believe.

GT  03:13  They've definitely got a brown one.

Scott  03:14  They've obviously got a brown one. And according to Keith Erickson, in one of his firesides that I attended, they have a box of seer stones.

GT  03:20  Oh.

Scott  03:21  A box of rocks, as he as he termed it. And I'm like, "Great. I would love to see them. I would love to study them. I'd love to understand anything I can about them." They were like, "No, no." And evidently...

GT  03:38  We published a picture, that's good enough.

Scott  03:40  Yeah, but I guess what frustrated me more than that is, it's not even in the catalog. So the Church has a catalog of all their artifacts.

GT  03:47  Are these like Hiram Page's seer stones or Oliver Cowdery? Do we know?

Scott  03:52  What I understand, is that these are seer stones donated by members who wa...

Where do LDS adjacent groups like FAIR, Saints Unscripted, and the More Good Foundation get their money? Scott Vance recently presented his findings at the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion and gives more answers. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/P956YHWLr_A

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Partner Organizations

GT  00:31  Well, let's talk about that. Because I know another thing that you said was, the Church wants these to be independent, but you talked about the guy with the card to get into the Church [Office] Building. So there's some...

Scott  00:46  Fuzziness.

GT  00:46  …coordination there or something.

Scott  00:48  Sure.

GT  00:49  Talk more about that.

Scott  00:51  About why the Church wants them to be independent or--

GT  00:52  Well, that as well as, is there funding going on with the Church?

Scott  00:53  Sure. In terms of funding, the easiest way to see the funding is to pull the 990 forms that are available, and those are available from 2005 to 2018 for the More Good Foundation. They're all public. They're all online. You can read them just like I did, and you can scrape the data off of that. You can see that on any given year, the Church, the Foundation, the LDS Foundation, I believe it's called...

GT  00:58  Okay.

Scott  00:58  …which is one of the organizations that the Church owns; I believe it's where they keep the money from their private businesses.

GT  01:32  Okay.

Scott  01:33  They gave, I hate to give the wrong number. But it's approximately $140,000 to the More Good Foundation. That figure has varied year to year, and it started at a lower number of 2005 and then crept up over time. It was basically flat after that. But yeah, I mean, so the money is there.

GT  01:53  So they're getting $150,000 a year, roughly?

Scott  01:57  Sure. And then you can look at the private donors, and you can calculate it out, and it comes out to about 20% of the total donations that they get.

GT  02:05  Just from Mom and Pop, whatever.

Scott  02:10  Kind of.

GT  02:10  Rich mom and pop.

Scott  02:11  Very rich mom and pop that just happened to give $100,000 here or a million here, whatever.

GT  02:17  Oh, so these are Mitt Romney type people?

Scott  02:20  I mean, Mitt Romney is not on the list.

GT  02:22  Okay.

Scott  02:23  But some other people are. There's people from WordPerfect. Let me see if I can bring up the list here. Extra Space Storage, there's Spencer Kirk and Ken Woolley who have combined donations of almost $5 million to the More Good Foundation.

GT  02:22  Just the More Good Foundation?

Scott  02:48  Yes. And one of these guys, I believe, was the founder of the Foundation. So, he's personally invested. And he's been on the board of the Foundation since it started. So, I mean, he's part of the Foundation. So, he's giving his own money, which makes sense.

GT  03:01  Okay.

Scott  03:04  And then you have the LDS Church, and then Ashton Family Foundation, which is essentially the founder of WordPerfect, gave $1.8 million over the years. You've got some people from Nu Skin.  You've got the One Foundation, Stephen Lind and Blake Rooney, combined donations of approximately $1.5 million.

GT  03:23  Wow. So pretty rich Mormons.

Scott  03:29  Yeah. I mean, there are the people down that are giving...

GT  03:32  These aren't $10 and $20 donations?

Scott  03:34  No, no. And in fact, they probably receive $10.00 to $20.00 donations, but they don't put those on the tax form, so you wouldn't see those anyway. You only see figures that are above $5,000.

GT  03:42  Five thousand, you said?

Scott  03:43  Yes.

GT  03:44  Okay. Interesting. And so the Church, even though they do contribute to some of these organizations, the percentage is relatively small,

A few years ago, the LDS Church switched from 3 hour church to 2 hour church. Is that helpful or hurtful to retention of members? Scott Vance weighs in, and we'll also discuss the loss of Church pageants and other activities. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/LlI9miCNoCc

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3 to 2 Hour Church/Pageants

GT  00:30  Is two-hour church a good thing or a bad thing?

Scott  00:35  In terms of retention? I'm skeptical. I mean, you even see this in the 1980s. In fact, the Church published some of the data on this in the 1980s, when they went from the essentially all day church meetings and breaks in between.

GT  00:48  And primary in the middle of the week.

Scott  00:50  Yes, and all that to the three-hour block on Sunday. The Church published an article in the Ensign saying that their sociologists researched it, and these were the positive effects, and these were the negative effects. And the negative effects were that single members and people who traveled further missed the communion that they felt at church on Sunday when they had the shorter block meetings. So, that's something that they noticed even back when they went to the three-hour block.

GT  01:13  That was like, 1980, I think.

Scott  01:15  It's 1980. Yeah, 33 years ago, roughly.

GT  01:18  Okay, so back then they noticed? Well, I guess it wasn't disaffiliation, because they were still growing.

Scott  01:25  Sure.

GT  01:26  So, how do you explain that? There was less community?

Scott  01:32  I think the level of community dropped slightly at that point. But there weren't the other social factors, which were pushing as hard. After the year 2000, you get a lot of factors. There's obviously the internet, which, in terms of researching historical topics--and whatever you can say, the Internet has had a negative effect on the LDS Church, perhaps. But I think the larger effect is just the loss of community when people spend more time online. Because you're not with the group of people, therefore you feel less affiliation with the group. And I could be totally making this up. But that's my impression. {both chuckling}

GT  02:12  All right. So if the brethren came to you and said, should we reinstate three-hour church, you would say...

Scott  02:21  I would say, {heavy sigh} what to do? That's a tricky one. I do think there's this continuity when they go between Sunday School one week, and the other classes the next week, and I think that's negative. I would say that if they want to be successful, they should have a constant program, the same program every week. Whether that means shortening the classes or getting rid of one of them, I don't know.

GT  02:54  Half-hour Sunday school, half-hour priesthood?

Scott  02:56  Or you skip Sunday school entirely. And you do priesthood and Relief Society, and you combine the Sunday school curriculum into the priesthood, for instance.

GT  03:05  So you have a Sunday school lesson in priesthood?

Scott  03:07  Yeah.

GT  03:08  Okay.

Scott  03:09  For instance--I don't know the answer there.

GT  03:13  But what about, like, road shows and basketball tournaments and things like that?

Scott  03:17  I think that'd be a huge plus for the Church. I think that the Church has a number of talented, amazingly talented people, which they saw, when they asked for submissions to the hymnal. They got so many more than they were ever prepared to, and it cost them years of delay. But it's because the members care and they're talented, and they want to help.

GT  03:37  I have to say something. I know, with correlation, they want to make the hymns simple, so that anybody can play them or that sort of thing. I attended a Bickertonite service with Steve Pynakker in Florida back in January. And that piano player was freaking amazing.

How are LDS adjacent groups funded? Scott Vance recently presented a paper at the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion (SSSR) in Salt Lake City on how LDS adjacent groups are funded directly and indirectly by the LDS Church. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/zMkMj-d4O-o

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Don't miss our other conversations with Scott Vance:  https://gospeltangents.com/people/scott-vance

Meet Scott Vance

Interview

GT  00:11  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a good friend and longtime listener. Why don't you go ahead and tell us who you are and why you're in Salt Lake City?

Scott  00:50  My name is Scott Vance. I'm visiting Salt Lake for the SSSR Conference, the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion. They just had a conference here this last weekend.  And I'm interested in Mormon studies, so I decided to attend.

GT  01:04  All right, well, not just attend, you presented a paper.

Scott  01:06  I did present a paper. Yes.

GT  01:07  And we want to talk about that paper. In fact you might have to lend me the slides.

Scott  01:11  Okay. I can do that.

GT  01:13  So tell us about your paper.

Scott  01:16  I discussed some concepts around support organizations of the Mormon Church that are not officially affiliated, but which have close ties to the Mormon Church. And I listed a number of organizations such as the More Good Foundation; such as FAIR, previously, FAIR Mormon, but now I think they're just called FAIR; The Interpreter Magazine, The Widtsoe Foundation; and who else? Book of Mormon Central, of course. I talked a little bit about how each of these organization has some ties to the Church, both financial ties, in certain cases, in certain cases [the] use of facilities, in other cases, very close connections between different personnel. Some of these organizations rely heavily on personnel who are employed by BYU. And so, I talked about these ties and how these organizations support the mission of the Church, and why the Church chooses to keep these organizations outside of the main official body of the Church.

GT  02:18  Right. Now, before we jump into your presentation, let's get your background. Where did you get your Bachelors, Masters, anything like that?

Scott  02:28  Sure. I grew up in Washington State. I went and did a Bachelor's at BYU.

GT  02:33  Oh, you're a Cougar. I didn't know that.

Scott  02:35  I was a Cougar, indeed.

GT  02:36  Wow.

Scott  02:37  Yes. I studied there. I went there in Fall of 1992. After a year, I went on a mission to Japan. I served for two years in the Tokyo South mission.

GT  02:48  Konnichiwa (Hello or Good morning)

Scott  02:49  Konbanwa. (Hello or Good evening)

GT  02:50  O genki desu ka? (How are you?)

Scott  02:52  [Scott speaking fluent Japanese.]

GT  02:54  That's too much Japanese. I just did everything [I know.] Sukiyaki. So, anyway, you went on a mission to Japan.

Scott  03:02  I did, yes.

GT  03:03  And then what happened?

Scott  03:04  After that, I returned to BYU. I graduated two years later in Physics, with a minor in Japanese and a minor in Math.

GT  03:13  Oh, no wonder we get along so well.

Scott  03:15  I know.

GT  03:16  I minored in Physics and majored in Math.

Scott  03:18  There you go! You just went to the wrong school!

GT  03:21  Well, I went to Weber State. People don't know that's the Lord's University.

Scott  03:24  Well, my mom did, evidently, because she went to Weber, as well.

GT  03:27  Oh, wow. Your mom must be cool.

Scott  03:29  Yeah, she was. Unfortunately, she has passed at this point.

GT  03:31  Yeah, mine too. That's terrible. Well, cool. So you majored in Physics?

Scott  03:38  I did.

GT  03:39  And I thought you were an engineer or something.

Bryan Ready has visited the Nauvoo Pageant for years, and now he's part of the cast! He'll describe his experiences in the pageant, and how Casey Griffiths asked him to write about Church history sites in Illinois. Check out our conversation, but signing up to our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter

https://youtu.be/Z6DSD9uhRLo

transcript to follow

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transcript to follow

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Why do industrialized countries lose religion? Dr Ryan Cragun has a very interesting theory. We'll also talk about other projects he is working on. Check out our conversation by subscribing to our free newsletter at gospeltangents.com/newletter

https://youtu.be/ie4ezw8eQPM

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ryan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ryan-cragun

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Why Utah is Not Majority Mormon

GT  00:29  Okay. It was interesting, and it's because I have a statistics background., I was really surprised on your article that came out this week, that you were using 99.9% Confidence Intervals, because everybody uses 95. Why did you pick that?

Ryan  00:49  Sure, happy to. For our listeners, this is really basic statistics stuff, but I'm just going to clarify. What we were doing is called a point estimate. We were trying to estimate some parameter, some number in the population. And you do that based on a sample. So, we had a sample of 1900, (roughly) people. So, when you make that estimate, we know statistically that it's not actually the number. It's just an estimate. So when you put that in, you want to put what's called a confidence interval around there and say, "That's our best guess, based on the data that we got, but the true number is somewhere between this lower value and this higher value.  It's going to be somewhere in there.” And you've certainly seen this, all the listeners will have seen this with presidential polling data. Trump's polling at 42% plus or minus 3%. That's the confidence interval. Like you said, most people will put it in at 95%. We knew going into this that people were going to be like, Oh, come on. 42%? That's a huge difference from what the Church is reporting. The Church is saying 60%, and you're saying 42%? We're like, yeah. It's not that it's the perfect survey. It's kind of the standard now. It's what most people use. So, it's kind of an online panel that is a quota sample. That's technically what it's called. It's not a true random probability sample. So, there are those problems.

GT  02:08  But it's probably better than a random sample.

Ryan  02:09  It might be. Don't put me under the gun on that one. I don't want to opine on that one. It's not perfect. It's as good as we can get these days for less than several million dollars. We paid $10,000 for that survey. So, just so everybody knows, it wasn't cheap. But it's not perfect. What we also wanted to do is say [that] look, when you go, when you increase your confidence, your interval gets bigger. So, you could say, oh, I'm 50% confident, but I have a really small margin. Or you could say, you know what? I'm 99.9% confident, but your margin gets bigger.

GT  02:55  Right, and I always tell people, "Hey, I'm 52% confident that Trump's going to win, but the margin of error is anywhere between zero and 100%. Prove me wrong."

Ryan  03:08  Yeah. You just gave the whole margin, right?

GT  03:10  Exactly.

Ryan  03:11  You can't be wrong.

GT  03:11  So, that's why the more confidence you have the bigger your interval is going to be.

Ryan  03:15  Exactly. Right. So that's why we did it. And part of that was when it came out at 42%, I was, like, okay. Obviously, the very first question that people are going to ask is...

GT  03:26  What's your margin of error?

Ryan  03:27  What's your margin of error? And if your margin of error is big enough that it covers the 50, we can't say that Mormons are a minority in the state anymore. They're still the majority. So, we put as big of a confidence interval as we could, and it still only reached--I want to say 46%. Right? It's like 38 to...

GT  03:45  I think it was 45.

Ryan  03:46  Yeah, something like that. So, we still didn't come close to the 50%. And that's why we can say, Mormons are no longer the majority in Utah.

What role does politics play in religious affiliation? Dr Ryan Cragun gives us a few hints and discusses his upcoming book on the topic. We'll also discuss his recent papers asking when women get LDS priesthood. Will Christ return before women get priesthood? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/xmEjPdBY78I

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ryan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ryan-cragun

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Why Churches Grow in Global South

Interview

GT  00:43  I know there's been a theory and maybe it's gone out of style. I talked about this with Matt Bowman, that conservative fundamentalist religions that don't allow you to drink, don't allow you to dance, don't allow you to eat bacon, things like that.

Ryan  01:04  High demand, high-cost religions, yeah.

GT  01:07  They retain more members than the progressive [churches.] Do you agree with that, or no?

Ryan  01:15  Yes, that is true. If you actually look at retention rates, they do tend to do a little bit better. I don't want to crib too much for my forthcoming book, y'all need to just buy that book. We address a lot of those things. But yeah, there are some reasons why that might be the case.  One: when you have really high costs, leaving is an even higher cost. When you're raised in a religion that controls everything from what you can say and think and wear and eat, leaving becomes a much bigger challenge. So, it's hard to leave a religion that is all-encapsulating, a strict or high demand or high-cost religion, that's what they're called. So, it can be much harder to leave. So, I absolutely get that, and I think there's some truth to that. But we often don't flip that around and ask, what I think is the more interesting question, which is, why are people attracted to those conservative religions? What is it about the conservative religion that actually has appeal versus the more progressive religions? The progressive religions are dying. Steve Bruce, that sociologist I mentioned in the UK, he projected at the rate of decline in the UK, I think this is in his 2011 book, United Methodists or the Methodist Church will be gone by 2033.

GT  02:32  Oh, wow.

Ryan  02:33  Gone.

GT  02:34  And they're having a big schism right now.

Ryan  02:35  Yes.  I mean, they're struggling. So, I think flipping that around, why are people attracted to these conservative religions? If you live in a modern, fairly progressive country, like the United States, but you aren't fully comfortable with, say, transgender individuals, or maybe you're like, oh, I don't know if gays should be allowed to be married or something like that. Where are you going to find validation for those views? Or if you're like, my wife wants to stay home and raise kids. Are you going to find validation for those views in Hollywood?

GT  03:12  No.

Ryan  03:12  No. Where are you going to find it? In the conservative churches. So, there is still a niche market for these conservative religions. They attract people who hold very similar views.  Because they hold those views, they can find affirmation and validation for their views in these conservative religions. There's appeal there. And I don't think that appeal is going to disappear anytime soon. I like to kind of joke or argue--it's a little tricky, that the LDS Church is always going to be like 40 to 50 years behind everybody else. And that's fully intentional, and I get it. I'm not going to say like, hey, no, you should just totally modernize. They have to remain fairly conservative, but still change. If you don't change, you're going to die. But if you change too fast, what's your appeal? What's the appeal of the LDS Church if it's the same values that are espoused in Hollywood. There's no appeal there, because what affirmation or validation do I get for my beliefs? Theres none.

We've talked about why people don't identify as religious, but is it true that Conservative Churches grow at a faster rate? Is it true churches in the Global South are growing? Why is that? Dr Ryan Cragun answers this conundrum. Check oiut our conversation...

https://youtu.be/eytjMTj0wUs

Don’t miss our other conversations with Ryan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPiSAV7aMxI&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ5TNY30k0M5dZa_cM1S9bk8

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Rise of the Nones

GT  00:36  You know, we talked a little bit about the rise of the "nones." I recently talked to Matt Bowman, and one of the things that he said, and I think I asked you this SSSR. But I want to ask it again. He said that there's a rise in people who are into astrology, and New Age religion. Do you agree with that?

Ryan  01:01  No, not at all. Sorry, Matt. I love Matt. He's a nice guy. I think he's wrong on that. There's a great sociologist named Steve Bruce. He's from the UK. And he wrote, the worst-titled book I think I've ever read. It's The Westernization of the Easternization of the West. I think that's roughly what the title is, which is just terrible. But, basically, what he's arguing is, we've got a lot of people. He's using the UK, but we can use the US as a comparative case. In the UK, lots of people are leaving religion. They're now above 50%. So, more than 50% of British people have no religious affiliations. It's even higher in Scotland. But lots of people are leaving. And lots of people have then come out and said, "Oh, they're all becoming spiritual. They're turning to New Age spirituality."

GT  01:52  Yeah, spiritual, but not religious.

Ryan  01:53  Yes, it's that SBNR category, so spiritual, not religious. And

GT  01:57  That wouldn't be in the "none" category, or would it?

Ryan  01:59  It would, actually.

GT  02:00  It would be.

Ryan  02:01  They would still be counted in the none category because they don't have a religious affiliation. That's all that that category means is I don't have a religious affiliation. So, if you're identifying as spiritual, that's fine. What he did is he said, "Okay, well, what a lot of people are claiming is like, 'oh, there's like this innate sense that I have to have something.'" And so they leave religion, organized, formal religion, but then they find something else. So maybe it's crystals. Or maybe it's--who knows what it is?

GT  02:26  Tarot cards.

Ryan  02:27  Tarot cards, right, something like that. So they're finding these things and they're offsetting the religion with the more diffuse nonhierarchical Wicca, witchcraft, new age-y religions. So, he actually looked. He's like, "Okay, how many people are doing yoga? And how many people are doing all these things?" The number of people who do it on a regular basis, let's say, it's crystals, or tarot, or astrology or something like that. It's pretty flat. There hasn't been this dramatic uptick that's like, "Oh, I'm not a member of the Church of England anymore, therefore, I must practice Tarot." It's straight up, like, "I'm not a member of the Church of England anymore, and I'm nothing."

Ryan  03:03  Those things, not really interesting. He then goes on and this is why the book is titled that way, to say that the vast majority of people who do yoga, do it for exercise, not because they're now converts to this specific subset of Hinduism and they're like, 'I really believe all of the tenets of this.' They're like, 'yoga is good exercise.' So it's the westernization of the easternization of the West. They've basically westernized all of these religious elements that have come to the west like meditation, mindfulness, yoga. All of those things, now, we just basically treat us health stuff. So, you're doing things for your health. No one's like, "Okay, I'm going to practice mindfulness, therefore, I'm a Buddhist,