Jim Lucas & Jonathan Neville think revisions need to be made to the Gospel Topics Essays. They also critique Richard Bushman's scholarship. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/c4ObPmp13xY

 

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Upcoming Books

GT  00:28  All right, well, I've kept you guys a long time. Any last thoughts you guys want to share, any new things you're working on? Anything we missed?

Jonathan  00:36  Oh, I'm working on some pretty awesome stuff. But we don't want to get into that.

GT  00:42  Besides your art?

Jonathan  00:43  I have a book coming out called the "Rational Restoration," that takes this narrative about Joseph Smith, that expands it even more. Because one of the things that critics say is “Oh, the whole idea of the Restoration is irrational. And the nature of God,” and all this. I go through. I have about, I don't know, 60 or 70 re-frames about how to look at life in general, as well as the Restoration, but through the eyes of the restoration, and how it's the fulfillment of Christian aspirations for centuries. And they can't see it, because of the way it's been presented to them. And because their ministers have an income to defend too, that's an element of it. But I think that the Restoration was presented to Christianity, almost in a way to provoke a reaction, instead of to demonstrate how they are fulfilling the aspirations you guys have been talking about for centuries. And that's how I'm trying to reframe that part of it. But have lots of other re-frames.

GT  01:41  And that'll be out next week?

Jonathan  01:43  They'll be out before September.

GT  01:44  Oh, wow. That's pretty quick.

Jonathan  01:45  I'd say it's over a year late.

GT  01:47  You're pretty prodigious with all the books you've come out with.

Jonathan  01:50  Well it's been really interesting, because this one, we had pre-sold it last summer. And in response to various feedback I've gotten, because I have a few people read some of my stuff, and other developments in the church...

GT  02:04  Well it's faster than the 15 years Richard Turley took on his second book.[1]

Jonathan  02:09  Yeah. But he was researching a lot of details. Whereas I've done some thick books with lots of research, but this one is intended to be more of putting it all together, I guess, you could say, and expanding it beyond these issues of church history, like this narrative of Joseph Smith. That's not really a question of how do we interpret church history? It's a different narrative way to understand these things. And I think that's what is needed more than anything else. So I finally decided, Okay, I'm going to put some time into this. I've looked at rationality from a lot of perspectives, a lot of different non-LDS perspectives, not even Christian perspectives, to try to wrap it all into one great whole so to speak. And to me, it is very rational, the whole thing is rational. It's awesome. I'm really excited about that book. But I also have a career as a full-time artist. So, I'm spending a lot of time doing art, and it's hard to balance it all. That's why I say before September, I'll have it done.

 

Bushman Strengths/Weaknesses

GT  03:08  That's cool. Jim?

Jim  03:11  I need to circle around and make my little thing about Richard Bushman. I had the privilege of working as one of Richard's readers on Rough Stone Rolling.

GT  03:26  Really?!

Jim  03:27  Yes. He said,

Jonathan  03:28  He's in the acknowledgments.

Jim  03:29  I'm acknowledged in there.

GT  03:30  Oh wow, I did not know that.

Jim  03:32  So he'd send me his drafts. And he had several people, I mean I was certainly not alone. But I'd comment on them and so forth. So, I feel like I have little insight into the production of Rough Stone Rolling. And I can say that, even Richard,

I had a fun time attending the first Bickertonite baptism in Utah. On a frigid 30 degree day, I witnessed a baptism in the Jordan River. I'll share my thoughts on their church services. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/0NRBxMvB1Qg

If you would like to know more about this Restoration Church, check out these other episodes: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/bickertonites/

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1st Bickertonite Baptism in Utah

GT  00:00  I've got a special for you today. About a week ago I attended a Bickertonite baptism. The official name of their church is The Church of Jesus Christ. They're based in Monongahela, Pennsylvania. And I found out they had their first Utah baptism. So it was fun. Steve Pynakker was out here in Utah, and we got to attend. And, you know, especially since I had David Boice on recently. I'm not going to take over his 52 Churches in 52 Weeks, but I thought it would be fun, just to do one church in this weekend and just tell you my experiences at attending a Church of Jesus Christ baptism here in Utah. The first thing that you'll notice was, it was very cold.  I can't remember if it was 30 or 32 degrees. Apparently, the Bickertonites believe that, just like Jesus, you should be baptized in an open body of water, {chuckling} even if it's December.  They joked about cutting holes in the ice to baptize somebody in the winter. Personally, if it was me, I would probably wait untill summer. {laughing} That's very cold. But the baptism occurred in the Jordan River. And so, I thought I would show you a clip here of the first baptism in Utah, for the Bickertonite Church. The Church of Jesus Christ, here in the Jordan River. And here we go.

 

[Video of Reid being baptized in Jordan River.]

 

01:38  Jacob Reid Betts, having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, amen.  (Congregation singing.)

GT  02:17  So, the guy who got baptized, his name is Reid Betts and I've got a picture of him here. I just can't believe [he got in cold water.] I'm not that brave. I'm not a polar bear at all. But yeah, it was really cool in the Jordan River. Obviously, that would have a little bit of significance because Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River. But of course, this is Jordan river in Utah--Jordan river of Israel are not exactly the same. But it was very, very cold. So we did that. I think Reid lives in the Murray area or something because after the baptism, we got in our cars and we rode to the one of the libraries there in Salt Lake City, in Murray and did the confirmation service. One of the things that I find interesting about the Church of Jesus Christ, the Bickertonite Church, is they have amazing music and I guess this is the second time I've attended. I didn't really talk about the first time, but I'll kind of share some thoughts there. The first time I attended was in Florida with Steve Pynakker, also.  And I swear they have the best piano players, because their music-- I think I might even have a little clip here, I hope. (jazzy gospel music playing with the congregation singing)

GT  04:30  Anyway, that kind of gives you a little bit of taste of the music, and it's just really fun and really, really cool. And so we sang songs for a long time while Reid was getting warm and drying off. {chuckling} Then he showed up. If you've ever been to an LDS baptism or confirmation service, in a lot of ways it is very, very similar. They give the laying on of hands and we give to the Holy Ghost and that sort of thing. One of the interesting things about the Bickertonite service is the fact that in every service that I've attended, and so at this baptism, for example, after, I believe it was after the confirmation, they made an announcement.

If we take an expanded view of the Sept Six, we'll find others excommunicated for not being orthodox enough (or too orthodox.) Sonia Johnson, Brent Metcalfe, Mark Hofmann, and Avraham Gileadi are some of the people we discuss with Dr Sara Patterson. Should all of them be included in conversations about the September Six? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/Wt3GQJsCsIw

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Sonia Johnson & ERA

Interview

GT  00:35  Let's talk a little bit about some of the other people. I was surprised in your book that you even went back to Sonia Johnson. For those who aren't familiar with Sonia Johnson, because they're not as old as say I am, give the young people an idea of who was Sonia Johnson and why was she a problem for the church?

Sara  00:57  Sonia Johnson was a church member who fought for the Equal Rights Amendment. And she talked about the Equal Rights Amendment when she first heard that phrase, Equal Rights Amendment, she said something like “the three most beautiful words in the English language.” So, she really felt like the ERA was an important issue, and that it didn't contradict her faith. She was an activist for the ERA. She was one of the founders of Mormons for the ERA. And she was eventually excommunicated for that work. Part of the reason that I talk about her is because the Equal Rights Amendment was one of the, I think, defining moments for the church hierarchy in terms of how it would talk about political issues. So, what the church hierarchy said about the Equal Rights Amendment was more generally, excuse me. I should start there, more generally, it said, "we're not going to get into political issues." But it framed the Equal Rights Amendment as a moral issue. And therefore said, "we can absolutely say that this is a problem for society." So, the Church very actively worked against the Equal Rights Amendment, once it had been framed as a moral issue.

Sara  2:44  Part of what happened with Sonia Johnson, is that church leaders started to frame feminism as an external foreign movement that was trying to infiltrate the church and Church leaders narrated it as, "this is going to upset the family." And because we, as the Church, care about the family, we need to protect the family. And the family needs to be a heterosexual union with the man being the provider and protector and priesthood holder, and the woman being the nurturer, and caretaker of the home and wife. So, what the fear that they were saying was that the Equal Rights Amendment would upset that family structure because it would collapse the differences between men and women. Then they talked about it as having this snowballing effect. So, if the differences between men and women collapsed, then divorce rates were going to go up. Children weren't going to be raised in a moral household. There would be more teen pregnancy and abortion. Men would feel like they weren't men anymore, so they might have affairs. Those affairs might with be with other men, so it was this snowball effect, because they were arguing the family was the foundation. Right?

Sara  4:35  And so basically, the moral structure of society would crumble if the Equal Rights Amendment passed. I think it was during that Equal Rights Amendment era that Church leaders got this theology framed that would then suit them well as they continued on into the 80s and 90s, talking about feminism as a danger to the Church. Once they were able to make the claim that feminism was outside the Church trying to get in, then they could also make the claim that they had to be the boundary enforcers to try to protect the family.

GT  05:29  And so by excommunicating Sonia, they made her an outsider, an outside threat?

Sara  05:36  Right.

GT  05:36  Instead of an inside threat.

Sara  05:38  Yeah.

Dr Sara Patterson discusses the tension between academic freedom and professors denied BYU tenure. While many focus on just the September Six, Dr Sara Patterson thinks some others should be included in the story. She discusses the dismissal of several BYU professors who were let go for from BYU not being orthodox enough. We'll discuss the stories of David Wright, Ceclia Conchar Farr, David Knowlton, and others. It can be difficult to get BYU tenure. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/GRol3z25OIY

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Untold Story of David Wright/BYU Tenure

Interview

GT  15:53  Okay, so it's interesting. I always wonder, Lynne Whitesides is another one. She was disfellowshipped, never excommunicated.

Sara  16:02  Yeah.

GT  16:03  And I even asked her I'm like, they went after Margaret, seven years later. Why are you still a member? I mean, she doesn't go to church.

Sara  16:12  Right.

GT  16:12  She's not, I wouldn't even call her believer at all.

Sara  16:15  Right.

GT  16:15  Whereas, Margaret still is.

Sara  16:17  Well, I think Lynne's a different type of believer. You know, she's moved away from the church totally.

GT  16:21  Yeah, well she's moved away from Christianity.

Sara  16:23  Yeah. And I think she fairly quickly came to view her dis-fellowship-ment as freedom or liberation.

GT  16:34   Yeah, she definitely did.

Sara  16:36  From and felt like she found a much more fulfilling spiritual life outside of the institution.

GT  16:44  So it was just interesting. Quinn lost or resigned from his job, but under pressure. So I'm going to say, to me, I treat that as a loss.

Sara  16:54  Okay. {both chuckling}

GT  16:56  Then he was excommunicated. They went after Margaret. They went after Janice Allred, who we haven't talked about yet.

Sara  17:02  Yeah.

GT  17:02   I think you've included her in the September group. You have a broader picture. But it's interesting how Cecilia Farr, David Knowlton, are still members. Was just going after their job good enough? Or why haven't they been excommunicated as well? I guess that is my question? Why did they go after David Wright and Michael Quinn and not some of these others? Do you have any insight into that?

Sara  17:33  I would be hypothesizing, of course.

GT  17:36  We can do that. This is Gospel Tangents. I know that historians don't like to do that. But I do! I like it when we do that!

Sara  17:47  It makes me anxious. {both laughing} Could it have happened differently? I always think, I don't know.

GT  17:56  It's called Monday morning quarterback.

Sara  17:57  Cecilia left Utah, and found another position. She left with her temple recommend in her hand. She stayed in the church for quite some time. In fact, it wasn't until her children were struggling with some of the messages in the church that she decided to stop attending church.

GT  18:22  Okay.

Sara  18:25  But, perhaps it has to do with her moving away from those centers of orthodoxy. She moved to the Midwest. She talked about feeling initially, when people still remembered who she was, in terms of the BYU story, that women would ask her questions. She felt like they were trying to feel out. Where's the line so that I make sure that I don’t cross it? But I think moving away helps. Right?

GT  19:01  It didn't help Kate Kelly, but that's beyond... {Rick laughing}

Sara  19:06  See, this is why I don't do hypothetical stuff {both laughing}. I'm forgetting who else you included in your question.

GT  19:18  One person that I'm not as familiar with, that you had mentioned was Gail Houston. Let's learn more about her story.

Sara  19:26  I don't know a whole lot about it. It wasn't a story that I focused on in the book. But she also was involved with feminist issues on campus,

Dr Sara Patterson knew Michael Quinn, one of the Sept 6, and is the author of "The Sept 6 & the Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism." She thinks we should think about more people than just the 6 excommunicated in September of 1993. We'll look back at Michael Quinn's life and ask if he is a hero or a tragedy. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/CKjWg75HIoc

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Michael Quinn: Tragedy or Triumph?

Interview

GT  00:41  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have an amazing, at least new to me, historian, could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where you teach?

Sara  00:50  Sure. I'm Sara Patterson. And I teach at Hanover College in Southern Indiana.

GT  00:55  Southern Indiana. Are you a Hoosier?

Sara  00:58  I guess so. {both laughing}

GT  01:02  Well, one of the things I always like to do is, I like to get people's backgrounds. Where did you get your Bachelor's and master’s and Ph.D. and all that stuff?

Sara  01:10  I received my undergraduate degree from Denison University in Ohio. And then I went to Claremont Graduate School for my doctorate.

GT  01:20  Oh, was that with Patrick Mason?

Sara  01:23  I was there before Patrick.

GT  01:25  Oh, so Dr. Bushman?

Sara  01:27  No, I studied with Ann Taves. And on my dissertation committee, Jan Shipps was a member.

GT  01:34  Oh, wow. That's cool.

Sara  01:36  Yeah.

GT  01:36  I just thought it was Bushman and then Patrick Mason, I didn't know Ann Taves was in there.

Sara  01:41  I was there when they were fundraising for that chair.

GT  01:43  Okay. Was Ann before Richard Bushman, then?

Sara  01:52  I want to say she overlapped with him one year, and then she went to UC Santa Barbara.

GT  01:57  Oh, wow. I did not know that. Wow. So, you're an old timer then in Mormon studies, right?

Sara  02:02  Yeah, I guess so.

GT  02:03  Except for,  did you major in Mormon studies, or was it just religious studies? Tell us more about your studies.

Sara  02:11  My degree is in history, but I specialized in religious history in the United States. And so, Mormonism has always been an interest of mine.

GT  02:19  Okay, because you're not Mormon.

Sara  02:22  I'm not.

GT  02:23  And so how did you get interested in Mormon studies?

Sara  02:26  It was just through the study of religion in the United States. And in reading about the early church, I was just captivated by the story.

GT  02:37  Okay.

Sara  02:38  Yeah.

GT  02:38  I talked to Cristina Rosetti. Do you know, Cristina?

Sara  02:41  Yeah.

GT  02:41  She said that, kind of like Parley P. Pratt, she opened up Rough Stone Rolling, and she read it all night. {both chuckling} Did you have any experiences like that?

Sara  02:50  I don't think I would characterize it that way. That's great. {both laughing} It was more of a slow growing interest in me.

GT  02:59  Okay. When you were six years old, you probably didn't say I'm going to grow up as a religious studies scholar?

Sara  03:08  I did not.

GT  03:08  How did that development happen?

Sara  03:14  In college, I took a required religion class. And it just opened my eyes. I've always been interested, I think, in why people do and act, the ways that they do. And so, the religion class just helped me see religion as a motivator for people. And I was just hooked at that point.

GT  03:39  Okay.

Sara  03:39  Yeah.

GT  03:40  And so, do you have any other interests besides Mormonism?

Sara  03:46  Yeah, I'm interested more broadly in gender and sexuality in religion, and then also in material culture and sacred spaces. One of my first major projects was about a piece of outsider art in Southern California. I did a project it's out in the middle of the desert. So, I interviewed people who are coming to visit that space called S...

Who bears the most blame for Mountain Meadows Massacre? Barbara Jones Brown & Richard Turley will discuss the roles of Brigham Young, John D Lee, Isaac Haight, William Dame, and others in the massacre. We'll also discuss why it is important to discuss the massacre, and what other projects Barbara & Rick are working on. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/mJYj5uHfmrA

transcript to follow

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transcript to follow

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Gospel Tangents

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Would you attend a church that talked about Star Wars Church (or Barbie, or Mario Brothers)? It turns out that some pastors are pulling out all the stops to get people to attend. David Boice is the host of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks and discusses what it's like to attend these churches. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/GlVxRTuTZ40

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Star Wars Church - New Perspectives

Interview

GT  00:24  And so I remember from your presentation, you said, we talked about the cowboy church. We talked about the heavy metal church. We haven't talked about the Star Wars church.

David  00:36   Oh, boy. Yes.

GT  00:37  Tell us more about that one.

David  00:39  With the Star Wars [church], what I'm seeing happen a lot is typically in seeker sensitive churches, those are usually your mega churches, they typically will try. They have the two big church services every year, Easter and Christmas. What a lot of these seeker sensitive churches are finding is during the summer, you have movies playing. A lot of these bigger churches are starting to head towards movie-based sermon series…

GT  01:09  Okay.

David  01:10  …for the entire month, and that will typically bump up attendance.{Rick laughing} The one that's most prominent with this is Life Church based in Oklahoma. They have several satellite campuses. They're very famous just because when it comes to one of the most popular Bible apps, it was created by Life Church. I want to say it's either June or July, what they've started to do is based off popular movies at all their different campuses, in the lobbies, they will have church members create all these movie dioramas, these displays, all kinds of stuff. The main satellite campus focused this year on Mario Brothers. The entire lobby area was full of Mario and then I don't know if it's Life Church or not, but I remember seeing a video where you know that Mario Brothers, the Peaches song?

GT  02:07  Not really.

David  02:08  I haven't seen the movie. But in the movie, they start singing Peaches, Peaches, Peaches, Peaches. Here, they would try and do a Jesus version with Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, to try and incorporate these movies and bring that type of person who's typically not going to go to church. Maybe they had a faith crisis themselves in the past and swore off church altogether. This is just their hook to bring people in, where it's like, oh, this church is doing a Mario sermon series. This one's doing a Star Wars one. This one is doing, I saw one of Barbie this year.

GT  02:46  A Barbie church?

David  02:47  Well, they had a sermon series on Barbie.

David  02:50  With Life Church, I don't think they did that. But I had seen another church I was planning to attend. And I'm like, ah I better not. {Rick chuckling} But with the one that I visited, they had been influenced with these at the movies, type of sermon series. They opened up the sermon by having two high school students stage a lightsaber battle to open up the sermon. And then the pastor would grab the lightsaber, and he's wielding it, as his, I don't know, just swinging it back and forth to make his points, comparing Star Wars quotes of Yoda, and incorporating that into well, here's how it is very similar to this passage in Isaiah, or this passage in Matthew.

GT  03:37  If you strike me down, I will be more powerful than ever.

David  03:40  Sort of, yeah. It was just very different with what other churches will do. In some points, as I'm seeing this, myself, as an outsider, sometimes it's like, how far is too far? But at the same time, it's like I understand some people may never come back to church. Maybe this is a way to bring them back. But I guess, I mean, we have to look at the facts. If it's bringing people in, if there are numbers on that,

What would a Protestant think of Strangite, Bickertonite, and Community of Christ Churches? David Boice is host of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks and shares his thoughts. He also discusses presenting to Restorationists at the John Whitmer Historical Association in Texas. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/-p_i0a3l-xI

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Strangite, Bickertonite, JWHA Reactions

Interview

David  00:25  The next thing I know, Steve Pynakker reaches out to me from Mormon Book Reviews.

GT  00:31  Steve's good at networking.

David  00:33  Yeah. He had watched a few of my videos and he saw my video at a Seventh Day Adventist Church, because I was telling about my history of trying to do a Seventh Day Adventist Church in my first 52, and I showed up on a Sunday.

GT  00:51   Uh oh.

David  00:52  But Seventh Day Adventists are on Saturday.

GT  00:53   Right.

David  00:54  I didn't know that, so I showed up to this Seventh Day Adventist Church on a Sunday, because I didn't do enough research.

GT  01:15   Right. Purposely.

David  01:15  Steve found that hilarious and he thought, "I need to get this guy to do an interview." My friendship with Steve grew and he started talking to me about there were other Book of Mormon believing churches. And I'm like, there's more?

GT  01:20  Now had Steve started his channel yet?

David  01:24  Yes.

GT  01:25  Okay.

David  01:25  I think he was maybe about a year in with his channel.

GT  01:29  I didn't think he'd gone back that far. But wow. I thought he said three years. I guess that was just 2020. Okay.

David  01:36  Yeah. So, he let me know about the Community of Christ. He told me about this, I can't remember the exact term, this king of Beaver Island.

GT  01:47  Oh, Strangites.

David  01:48  Yeah. Because he knew I was in Wisconsin, [Steve said,] "You know, the Strangites are in Wisconsin." I had no clue who James Strang was.

GT  01:55  Oh, I thought he was going to tell you about the Bickertonites, but yeah, Strang makes more sense.

David  01:59  He told me about the Bickertonites too. Because that was one that he let me know [about] as well.

GT  02:03  He attends that church quite often. In fact, he even took me in Florida. It was my first time.

David  02:09  It's his jam, a Pentecostal excitement for the worship, with the Songs of Zion and everything. So, I couldn't keep doing it. I was trying to do different denominations, different churches. So, I wanted to try some different ones. We did Community of Christ with the Stone Church in Independence, Missouri. That was my first time, because as a Protestant, hearing about the Temple Lot for the first time, this blew my mind. It's like, wait a minute. There's all these different Book of Mormon believing churches staked around.

GT  02:49  So, let me tell you something.

David  02:51  I'm curious about that.

GT  02:52  I just watched that. And it said, Temple Lot, and so I was thinking it was the Hedrickites and the white church. But it was the Stone Church, which is Community of Christ.

David  03:01  Across the street.

GT  03:02  Exactly. I was like, "Oh, this was kind of mislabeled."

David  03:06  I figured, okay, I'm going to visit the temple lot. But like with the Hedrickites, because I had one request to do the Hedrickite church, well, the Temple, the Community of Christ Temple. Obviously, I should do the Stone Church first. So that's what I picked for that Sunday.

GT  03:26  Well, and that turned out to be controversial, too. Right?

David  03:29  A little bit, a little bit.

GT  03:31  Tell us more about that.

David  03:32   So, I was very excited to go into Community of Christ. And with the Stone Church, I had heard about Joseph Smith III. To me I really want to do a church service in the temple.

What's is like to visit a MegaChurch, a Heavy Metal Church, and a Mormon Church? David Boice is the author & host of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks and gives us his impressions. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/Nk93cTLtSS4

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Protestant Visits Metal, Mega, & Mormon Churches

Interview

GT  00:23  So, anyway, [do you have] more takeaways from that first year?

David  00:27  Yeah, oh boy, just how much is out there. And (for example) I would go to one church in Ohio, it was a heavy metal rock music church.

GT  00:37  Nice!

David  00:39  You'd have to prepare what to wear. So, I'm wearing, black shirt, black hat, torn jeans.

GT  00:46  Black Sabbath, {Rick chuckling}

David  00:48  Well, they would incorporate Metallica and Judas Priest into the sermon. {Rick laughing} But it was very specific, because you saw just how many different people are out there. Because with that particular church, they did not fit within maybe like a Roman Catholic church, or some of the more dressy type of churches. I started to see the different type of outreaches out there, because you just never know what's out there and specifically when it comes to the different towns or where they live, because maybe one place like Salt Lake City is going to be completely different than another city south of Chicago. The churches need to cater towards who is already there sometimes. So, I found that very interesting.

GT  01:40  So you wore an AC/DC shirt then?

David  01:43  It was Motley Crue. I wore Motley Crue for that one.

GT  01:44  Motley Crue. {Rick laughing}

GT  01:48  So how was the music?

David  01:50  It was this blue grass, rockabilly type of music for the one that I went to there.

GT  01:59  Okay.

David  02:00  But out front, they had this customized hearse.

GT  02:05  Oh.

David  02:06  And that was just their hook to get people to come to church who don't necessarily feel like going to a traditional type of church. {Rick laughing} I followed them on Instagram. They would do baptisms in this black coffin.

GT  02:23  Really?

David  02:23  It was just very different, very different. With the Gospel Tangents audience, I'm sure you're probably never going to do something like that for baptism, but just to see what else is out there with other type of church traditions, it just had me scratching my head. I mean how do some of these churches originate with these different ideas?

GT  02:50  And how did they originate with this Hard Rock Church?

David  02:54  Oh boy, it was interesting. I would see that, but then I started seeing other types of churches. like the most recent one, I learned there were cowboy churches. You go to church, and then there may be a rodeo right afterwards, or the night before {Rick chuckling}. The rodeo arena is right next to the church. We didn't see that in Texas. I don't know when you were driving around Fredericksburg, if you saw anything like that?

GT   02:54  I didn't see any cowboy churches. Is there one there?

David  02:55  There was one when I was driving back.

GT  03:30  Oh.

David  03:31  I did see one, but they had it gated and I couldn't take much of a look. {both laughing}

GT  03:38  Oh, wow. So the Hard Rock Church, that was in your first year?

David  03:42  Yep.

GT  03:44  Any other takeaways there, in that first year?

David  03:48  I think what I learned, especially, was the lack of follow up that churches had.

GT  03:54  Okay.

David  03:55  For instance, a lot of churches would promote on websites, Facebook, to get people in. Then they'd obviously do the church sermon, at most of the churches I would go to, with the music and everything like that. But what a lot of churches lacked was just following up. Because the churches that sometimes had the best impression...

How is a Protestant faith crisis different than an LDS faith crisis? David Boice details how his faith crisis led him to start attending other churches, and he came up with a book and YouTube channel by the same name: 52 Churches in 52 Weeks. He'll give more details. Check out our next conversation....

https://youtu.be/GI8xP67Z0H8

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Lutheran Faith Crisis Leads to 52 Churches

Interview

GT  00:35  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have an internet superstar on the show.

David  00:40  Oh!

GT  00:41  Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and what's the name of your YouTube channel?

David  00:45  My name is David Boice of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks.

GT  00:49  All right. You've really [grown] apparently. Tell us how this channel got started. I thought that was pretty interesting.

David  00:58  It's a long story.

GT  00:59  That's why we are here.

David  01:00  Yeah. So, [in] about 2014, I was looking. I basically had a falling out with my lifetime Lutheran church.

GT  01:10  Oh. You didn't talk to Willie Grills? He would have talked you out of that. I had him on. He's a Lutheran pastor over in Arkansas, but he's far away. You're from Wisconsin. Right?

David  01:21  Yeah. With that church, [I] just had a few things that came up where I'm like, I can't keep coming. And what was happening--with my generation, like with millennials, we would often hear so much now about faith crisis’s. I was starting to go into a faith crisis. So, I stopped going to church. But there was something inside of me, where it [felt] like, something's just not right. And it kind of hit me, well, maybe I need to find a new church. But I had gone to this lifetime church for 30 years. And where do you start over? I had this whisper. I don't know. Is it the Holy Spirit? Is it God? Who knows? But I just had this thing to say 52 churches in 52 weeks. It sounds silly. But I'm like, "Well, that sounds [interesting.]”

GT  02:18  It sounds like a great marketing idea to me.

David  02:20  Right. Exactly. I just let it sit. And all of a sudden, things just happened, where, I was talking to a friend. He was completely opposite of me. For me, I have always been very Christian, I was always very conservative. [I] followed everything by the book. Whereas my friend was very atheist, very liberal, just very opposite of me. And in the past, we would have these religious debates. I was always [saying] well, you need to read the Bible. You just need to believe. [I] just sprinkled my little jazz hands to try and get him to believe what I thought. Whereas with him as an atheist, he was trying to get me away from faith, and get me, basically, that science, atheist a movement that was happening. I was just kind of stuck. And I decided with this thing, 52 churches in 52 weeks, you know what? Let's try it. So, I just went to the closest church that was near me, [It was] maybe did an Aaron Rodgers/Tom Brady, Hail Mary pass away. I know you're a Patriots fan (Rick laughing.)

GT  03:41  Are you a Jets fan now?

David  03:42  No. Heavens no. Packers all the way, Jordan Love, Utah State. [You] better get good soon. We'll see how this ages and what happens with that. So, I went to that church for my week one. And I started blogging on a website called medium.com. I did several church visits. So I did the first six.

GT  04:05  So this was a blog, not a video, only.

David  04:07  Right.

GT  04:08  Okay.

David  04:08  Originally in 2014, this was a blog.

GT  04:10  Oh wow.

David  04:11  And so my friend had interested me to start blogging about it. So, he found me a website: medium.com. It was really crisp. It was a very easy layout. You could just get it out. It worked really well at that time. So, I started doing all these church visits.