I passed my class! Please help support Gospel Tangents and subscribe to the podcast!

https://youtube.com/shorts/FPDRHuqFDPU

I'm getting a little overwhelmed right now, and I need a break. I've started a new MBA program and I have a hard deadline to write 3 papers by the end of November. I hope you understand. I'll pick back up in a few weeks after I get through this term. Check out the audio/video for more details.

https://youtu.be/SxWGHVP592U

We're going to review all the theories and talk about pros and cons of the promised land from Africa, Asia, North, South, and Central America. I'll be there are some theories you aren't familiar with! Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/voKps4g-vHs

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New World Geography

GT  09:13  Let's move on to New World geography. The hemispheric model this is probably what if you even ask people, people who don't come to conferences like this people who aren't as plugged in as you guys, they probably still think that North America is the land northward South America is the land southward. This is pretty much what early members always thought. The cons: the distance is just don't match for a continental hemispheric model. We've got DNA problems that I've mentioned earlier.

GT  09:43  The Baja Theory,[1] number seven. This is a photo of David Rosenthal. I interviewed him, I think it was back in 2016. And he believes that the Baja California peninsula, once again north/south... I know you guys don't believe in Sorensen's internal map, but it matches the map quite well. It's north/south. He says the climate is similar to the Mediterranean. It's compatible with the Mesoamerican theory. He thinks that they could have migrated to Mexico, possibly. The peninsula matches, distance match, no known anachronisms. Well, I don't know if I'd agree with that. A lot of his horses and elephants are prehistoric. They talked about the La Brea Tar Pits. The problem is those were 10,000 to 20,000 years ago, so they don't match Lehi's time period. It has DNA problems. Once again, how did the plates get to New York? It would have been very hard. You're going coast to coast. It has some growing support among scholars. But now, Brant Gardner mentioned that the populations mentioned in the Book of Mormon just don't exist in the Baja Peninsula. So, once again, pros and cons.

GT  11:04  Number eight, the New York Great Lakes Theory. One of the interesting things about this theory, if you look at the Great Lakes, those are huge. I mean, they're the largest lakes in the world. In Israel, we call the Sea of Galilee, which is way smaller than even the smallest Great Lakes, a sea. And so, if you look at the great lakes as seas, then you can say, well, these are the sea north, the sea south, east and west. KC actually has a little bit better map on his BookofMormon.online for the New York theory. There were some reviews done back in 2008.[2] They're a little bit dated. I'm just going to jump into the pros and cons. It's not a north/south Peninsula. There are several candidates for the narrow neck of land in between the Great Lakes. The lakes could reasonably be construed as seas. Limited geography is much more appropriate. It's very near the Hill Cumorah, so that's definitely a pro. I know that's a big deal with Heartlanders. Cons: it has DNA problems just like all of the New World theories. Elephants, horses, and plants are not found there. It's not scholarly at all. The Iroquois don't date to the right time period. I know this is an issue with Heartlanders. The Book of Mormon never mentioned snow. That doesn't bother you, but it bothers a lot of other people. So, the climate doesn't really seem to match.

GT  12:30  Moving on, this is a new theory I just found out a few months ago, the Delmarva Peninsula.[3] I've linked to the website[4] there. I'm not super familiar with this one. But Delmarva stands for Delaware, Maryland, Virginia. You can see that peninsula, right across there from Washington, DC/Baltimore area. So, once again, it's a peninsula North/South. It works very well if you believe in a limited geography theory. This one actually overlaps with Heartland a little bit. The Land Northward goes into the Ohio/New York area. So, it overlaps a little bit,

Did Lehi cross the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean to come to the Promised Land? We'll talk about Philip Beale, the man who did the voyage in a 600 BC ship, and discuss possible routes of the Jaredites! We'll also discuss Middle Eastern routes for Lehi. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/tg1Pj9Yz790

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Old World Geography

GT  00:23  Let's jump into Old World Geography. And this is one area that, I think, for the most part, most people who believe in the Book of Mormon, pretty much agree with, and that's Middle Eastern geography. It seems like the frankincense route out of Israel and into the Arabian Peninsula, I don't know anybody that really disagrees with that, per se. You’ve probably heard of Nahom. Proponents of this theory call it a bullseye. That was where Ishmael was buried. it was the land called Nahom. There's a Journey of Faith DVD[1] that documents this middle eastern geography very well. I've got a picture there, and there's a link, as well. And I've got it as some screenshots. You can see for those of you--[they] start out at Jerusalem, go down to the Sinai Peninsula and then into the Arabian Peninsula. And then, on that third map there, you can see, they basically take a left and end up in Yemen or Oman. For Book of Mormon proponents, I don't think this is controversial at all. I think pretty much everybody agrees that this is probably likely the route that Lehi traveled, and his family, and ended up in Yemen/Oman area. We'll talk about a couple of ports here.

GT  01:53  But in the interest of full disclosure, I'm always somebody who likes to listen to pro arguments as well as con arguments. This is a photo of John Hamer.[2] He's a Seventy in the Community of Christ. He left a comment on a blog, and he said, "It should come as no shock to us that Nahom, a Hebrew prophet in the Bible, has a Semitic name. It should, therefore, also come as no shock that there are places in Semitic speaking countries that share that name, or at least its consonants, NHM." Of course, Hebrew wasn't big on vowels. And so, you could take NHM and refer it to different places. John continues, "When I first wrote about NHM on a bulletin board, I did a quick test. I said to myself, they speak Arabic in Iraq. Let's see if there is a NHM in Iraq. A quick google search picks up on a place called Nahum in the Maysan province, immediately south of Al-Amarah.

GT  02:52  In other words, if the Book of Mormon had said Lehi and his party traveled past Babylon, there was another potential Nahum Bullseye waiting in Mesopotamia. Another Google search shows there's historically a town called Nahem in Lebanon, halfway between Tyre and Acre. If Joseph Smith had sent Lehi to America via Phoenicia, that would have been another bullseye. John continues, he says Nahum, NHM, is not a bull's eye. John says it's not even noteworthy, given one has the entire volume of a large Semitic country in which to find common Semitic route, we would be surprised not to find a place name that is somehow similar to NHM. So, anyway, there's the con to that argument as well.

GT  03:39  Now there's a couple of ports in Yemen. Warren P. Aston has promoted Khor Khofut as a port. He has a book called, In the Footsteps of Lehi: New Evidences of Lehi's Journey Across Arabia to Bountiful.[3] You can see that lush, green shore there. It seems to match a lot of places with the Book of Mormon. There's another proposed port called Khor Rori. George Potter[4] has done a lot of work on that. He has a website at www.Nephiproject.com. And I interviewed him a while back. His book is called Lehi in the Wilderness.[5] And I've got a link there, as well. I would say both of these are really good. I actually asked Brant Gardner which port he preferred. I was surprised.

Can you imagine if Simon Southerton, Ugo Perego, & Thomas Murphy talked DNA at FIRM Foundation? In a way, they did! Here is my presentation from last April. I let these 3 experts talk DNA at FIRM Foundation conference where we also discussed geology in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/ONDTtcKyO_8

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DNA at FIRM Foundation

GT  00:48  All right, I'm glad to be here today [at FIRM Foundation Conference.] Rod [Meldrum] and I have a couple of things, or one thing that's in common. We love to talk about the Book of Mormon, especially Book of Mormon geography theories. The difference is, Rod thinks there's one and only true theory, and I like to talk about all of them.  We're going to go over about 16 today. I actually gave a presentation like this about a year ago. And I've found about five new ones in the last three or four months. So, this is going to be new. Some of these are so new that I don't even know that much about them.

GT  01:21  Anyway, before we go into that, I want to talk a little bit about the main categories of theories. We have internal theories, the Old World, which is a little bit more expansive than I think most people go into. The New World, and then the theory that I find least interesting, but the ones who aren't believers are in the Book of Mormon, Joseph made it up. So, I will give a nod to them, just to know that I'm covering everything here, including that.

GT  01:54  Before we jump into these theories, one of the things I'd like to do is talk a little bit about some considerations that I think most people don't spend a lot of time talking about. I had Jerry Grover on.[1] He's actually speaking tomorrow, I understand, here at the FIRM Foundation.  He has a book, a fantastic book called Geology of the Book of Mormon.[2] And so, the idea here is most people haven't looked at the Book of Mormon from a geological point of view. Jerry does that. He's got a background in geology. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to be giving pros and cons to all the theories. Personally, I am not married to any one theory, I just think it's a fun thing to talk about. Jerry thinks that in 3rd Nephi, the destruction, in order to explain the mists of darkness and the earthquakes and everything, he believes that that sounds a lot like volcanic activity, if you remember Mount St. Helens big ash cloud. He says, actually, it took a lot of Mount St. Helens to do what happened in the Book of Mormon. And so he actually—Mesoamerica, I think people are kind of familiar with that. We'll talk about that in a little bit. He thinks that's actually a best fit, has a number of volcanoes and fault lines.

GT  03:21  There's another theory that we're going to be talking about today, the Yucatan Peninsula.[3] And he says that's the most seismically stable area in Central America. I did ask him about the Heartland theory. I know that most of you here are Heartlanders. He doesn't think the New Madrid fault fits geologically with the destruction found in the Book of Mormon. So, I'm just giving you guys a little preview on that. But a lot of people have asked him. Let's look at some of these other theories. And you're going to see, I think, I have 16 of them. And he says, "Well, it takes a lot of work to actually go through and look at all the papers on volcanoes and that sort of thing." So, I've got a link to his book here. If you want to test any theory, the Heartland theory, Baja, Malay, all of them, you can use his book as a guidebook.

GT  04:21  Another consideration that I think people don't pay much attention to is languages. If we believe that Lehi came to America, there should be some semblance of Hebrew. And so, Brian Stubbs has written a book called Changes in Languages From Nephi to Now.[4] And so, once again,

Did you know that Doctor Philastus Hurlbut signed "Manuscript Found"! Even Hurlbut knew the book was not the source of the Book of Mormon. Find out other people's reactions, including LL Rice who purchased the assets of the newspaper. Check out my presentation

https://youtu.be/e05njZgQVyw

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Reading Spalding Manuscript

GT  00:20  Now, my belief is, if you want to believe the Spaulding manuscript, which I have a hard time with, just read the manuscript. Honestly, it felt to me like I was reading Gilligan's Island. It's that kind of humor. So, we'll do that in just a minute. But E.D. Howe sold his newspaper for $600. But the newspaper folded later that year in January of 1835. A man by the name of L.L. Rice purchased the assets of the Painesville Telegraph in 1839 to 1840. Rice then moved to Hawaii and took all the documents with him. In the 1880s, James Fairchild, who was the president of Oberlin College in Ohio, suggested that Rice look through the documents and search of pre-Civil War slavery information. It was at that point that the Spalding document was discovered. L. L. Rice notes, "There is no identity of names of person or places and there is no similarity of style between them." Rice continues. This is a letter to Joseph Smith, the third in 1885. Rice says, "I am of the opinion that no one who reads the manuscript will give credit to the story that Solomon Spalding was in any wise the author of the Book of Mormon. Finally, I am more than half convinced that this is his only writing of the sort, and that any pretense that Spalding was in any sense the author of the other, is a sheer fabrication. It is easy for anybody who may have seen this or heard anything of its contents to get up the story that they are identical."

GT  02:11  So, I've got a link here.[1] You can actually view the manuscript. I've got a screenshot there. It was donated, originally, to the Community of Christ, and Joseph Smith, the third. Then, it was housed at Oberlin College. And if you go to archive.org, or you can click on this link, it will take you right to the Solomon Spalding manuscript, because it had no name. And you'll even notice here, if you read it, there are some cross outs in there. It looks more almost like a rough draft. But I mean, it's honestly hilarious. It's really like reading Gilligan's Island meets the Indians or something. So, it was first published in 1885 and Lamoni, Iowa. Jumping back to E.D. Howe, he “admitted that he had Spalding's manuscript, and we're going to prove that this is the manuscript that he had here in just a few minutes. “It was obvious that the former minister's work, a secular text, was not the source of the Book of Mormon, 'a lofty religious tome.' Although the introduction, ethnological assumptions and mystical lore were undeniably similar, to explain the enigmatic gaps in genre and plot, Howe wrote that his witnesses claimed Spalding had, ‘altered his first plan of light writing, by going farther back with dates and writing the old scripture style, in order that it might appear more ancient.’"

GT  03:48  So, Howe further purported that through some unspecified means, and the details are always really fuzzy on this, I will say, people who still believe this, Rigdon must have secured this hypothetical second revised manuscript, while he was living in Pittsburgh. He concluded, "We, therefore, must hold out Sidney Rigdon to the world as being the original author and proprietor of the whole Mormon conspiracy, until further light is elicited upon the Lost writings of Solomon Spalding."

GT  04:21  So even E.D. Howe knew and Philastus Hurlburt knew [that] this doesn't—I mean, it just bears superficial resemblance to the Book of Mormon. And so, therefore, clear back in 1834, they're already saying, "Well,

Have you ever read the Spalding Manuscript? It's hilarious! I'm going to read passages and review the plot of the Spalding Manuscript. You tell me if you think it is simliar to the Book of Mormon.

https://youtu.be/InPHrI0GJaY

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Reading Spalding Manuscript

GT  00:20  Now, my belief is, if you want to believe the Spaulding manuscript, which I have a hard time with, just read the manuscript. Honestly, it felt to me like I was reading Gilligan's Island. It's that kind of humor. So, we'll do that in just a minute. But E.D. Howe sold his newspaper for $600. But the newspaper folded later that year in January of 1835. A man by the name of L.L. Rice purchased the assets of the Painesville Telegraph in 1839 to 1840. Rice then moved to Hawaii and took all the documents with him. In the 1880s, James Fairchild, who was the president of Oberlin College in Ohio, suggested that Rice look through the documents and search of pre-Civil War slavery information. It was at that point that the Spalding document was discovered. L. L. Rice notes, "There is no identity of names of person or places and there is no similarity of style between them." Rice continues. This is a letter to Joseph Smith, the third in 1885. Rice says, "I am of the opinion that no one who reads the manuscript will give credit to the story that Solomon Spalding was in any wise the author of the Book of Mormon. Finally, I am more than half convinced that this is his only writing of the sort, and that any pretense that Spalding was in any sense the author of the other, is a sheer fabrication. It is easy for anybody who may have seen this or heard anything of its contents to get up the story that they are identical."

GT  02:11  So, I've got a link here.[1] You can actually view the manuscript. I've got a screenshot there. It was donated, originally, to the Community of Christ, and Joseph Smith, the third. Then, it was housed at Oberlin College. And if you go to archive.org, or you can click on this link, it will take you right to the Solomon Spalding manuscript, because it had no name. And you'll even notice here, if you read it, there are some cross outs in there. It looks more almost like a rough draft. But I mean, it's honestly hilarious. It's really like reading Gilligan's Island meets the Indians or something. So, it was first published in 1885 and Lamoni, Iowa. Jumping back to E.D. Howe, he “admitted that he had Spalding's manuscript, and we're going to prove that this is the manuscript that he had here in just a few minutes. “It was obvious that the former minister's work, a secular text, was not the source of the Book of Mormon, 'a lofty religious tome.' Although the introduction, ethnological assumptions and mystical lore were undeniably similar, to explain the enigmatic gaps in genre and plot, Howe wrote that his witnesses claimed Spalding had, ‘altered his first plan of light writing, by going farther back with dates and writing the old scripture style, in order that it might appear more ancient.’"

GT  03:48  So, Howe further purported that through some unspecified means, and the details are always really fuzzy on this, I will say, people who still believe this, Rigdon must have secured this hypothetical second revised manuscript, while he was living in Pittsburgh. He concluded, "We, therefore, must hold out Sidney Rigdon to the world as being the original author and proprietor of the whole Mormon conspiracy, until further light is elicited upon the Lost writings of Solomon Spalding."

GT  04:21  So even E.D. Howe knew and Philastus Hurlburt knew [that] this doesn't—I mean, it just bears superficial resemblance to the Book of Mormon. And so, therefore, clear back in 1834, they're already saying, "Well, there must be another manuscript. Clearly, it's not this one."

It's time to debunk the Spalding Theory. Some people continue to believe that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon from an earlier work by Solomon Spalding. First I'll give some background on Solomon Spalding. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/KlGaJvrSwJc

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Who Was Solomon Spaulding?/Spalding Theory

Interview

GT  00:01  Welcome to Gospel Tangents, the best source for Mormon history, science and theology and first daily Mormon History podcast. I'm Rick Bennett. I'm excited to present a little segment, [that] I've wanted to do for a long time, debunking the Spalding manuscript theory.

GT  00:16  I'm surprised at how many people still believe this theory. And we're going to go into it big time. We'll talk a little bit about the history of Solomon Spalding, as well as why this theory just breaks down. So, you don't want to miss this conversation. Check it out.

GT  00:31  All right. Well, it's so good to be with you guys. Again, these are my favorite meetings. I'm going to see if I can share my screen here. Here we go. Hopefully you guys can see my first slide. All right, perfect. So it's funny, Robert, you mentioned that I did statistics. We're not going to go deep into that. But statistics is going to come up in this conversation today. So, that's right up my alley. I like this kind of stuff.

GT  01:13  We're going to talk about debunking the Spalding Theory. Probably, this is the oldest theory ever, on the composition of the Book of Mormon. This is a picture or painting, I'm not sure exactly, of Solomon Spalding. I'm amazed that this is a theory that will just never seem to die. And so I want to address it and talk about it. Following the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830, critics of Joseph Smith believed he must have plagiarized it from someone, because clearly, Joseph didn't have the capacity to write that book. Now, I will just mention here really quickly, I think this is changing. But, back in 1830, everybody was like, Joe was way too dumb to have written that sort of thing. The most popular theory was known as the Spalding theory. You'll notice the Spalding [Spaulding] is spelled with and without an AU in it. And even you'll notice in my slides, it's all over the place. I don't think he really cared all that much on how it was spelled, with or without the U.  We'll talk a little bit about Solomon Spalding. He was born February 20, 1761, in Ashford, Connecticut.  He served in the Continental Army during the revolution, which was interesting to find out. He was in the class of 1785 at Dartmouth College, which is in New Hampshire. He was ordained two years later, as a Congregationalist preacher in Windham, Connecticut.

GT  03:00  In 1799, he moved to Conneaut, Ohio, and started writing the novel, which was never actually named. When it was found, they called it Manuscript Found. And so that's the name it has taken on. Anyway, that's when he probably started writing it. He moved to Pittsburgh during the War of 1812. Pittsburgh is going to be an important site/city, because that's where Sidney Rigdon is from. There have been many attempts to try to tie Solomon Spalding to Sidney Rigdon, as we'll learn here. He [Spalding] died October 20, 1816 in Amity, Pennsylvania, which is about 40 miles from Pittsburgh. He was dead long before, even, the First Vision. And so according to this theory, Sidney Rigdon, who's also from Pittsburgh somehow allegedly obtained this manuscript. There have been lots of people that have tried to link those two. There's really been nothing to link them together. But the idea is that Sidney Rigdon surreptitiously gave the manuscript to Joseph Smith sometime before 1827. Some people have said, "Well, that's what was in the hat. Joseph was reading from the manuscript in the hat.

Back in January, Rick Bennett traveled to Florida to hang out with Steve Pynakker of Mormon Book Reviews. Rick & Steve get personal! Steve interviews Rick to find out how his opinions of evangelicals have changed. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/nVUl0-2t7P8

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God Bless These Damned Souls!

Interview

Steve  00:36  And look who is in the house, Rick Bennett from Gospel Tangents.

GT  00:39  Glad to be here. There's nothing better than Florida in January. We're here, there's a pond behind us. There's an alligator behind us. I'm wearing shorts and a T shirt in January. This is unheard of.

Steve  00:53. Like I was telling Rick before we started filming, I said, God showed me a lot of things that are going to happen with my channel. But he did not show me that Rick Bennett was going to be in my lanai, in my Christian community, filming a Mormon Book Reviews episode. And this is really a remarkable thing. Thank you so much.

GT  01:08. It's great to be in Florida in January, I've got to tell you. The weather's awesome. I just can't believe it. It was snowing when I left Utah.

Steve  01:15. Yeah. What a contrast. I remember when we'd come down here from Chicago, the same culture shock happening. So yeah, I get that all a lot. Yeah. And it's really cool to be here in Florida. And one of the reasons why we're actually doing this, this was not planned. But we had to change of schedule for both of our interviews. We were supposed to do interviews yesterday, neither one of them [happened.] They fell through. So, we're supposed to do them today. And I said, "Why don't we do, like, a one-two punch: Mormon Book Reviews and Gospel Tangents, where I interview Rick Bennett about his experiences with Evangelicals that he's had in the past, but also since he met me, and started meeting other evangelicals, partially through me, and I guess we're going to call them the cool-vangelicals. Right? And so we want to talk about that. And, then we're going to talk maybe on his program, where I'm going to talk about my interactions with Mormons and what I've learned. So, first of all, welcome to the show. This is so awesome.

GT  02:06. It's so good to be in Florida in January. I can't tell you how nice this is.

Steve  02:10. By the way, he just keeps on saying that the whole time we’re here. {Chuckles}

GT  02:14. I'm not shoveling snow. I'm in a short sleeve t-shirt and shorts. And it's awesome.

Steve  02:20. Oh, and by the way, I just want to say, in the background, you can see this house. And that, actually, is a Christian friend of mine, who offered the let Rick stay at his house last night.

GT  02:28. A very, very nice guy.

Steve  02:29. Yeah, a great guy, so thanks, Eddie, for the real solid.

GT  02:32. Thank you, Eddie. This is awesome.

Steve  02:33. I love you, man. So, that's another positive interaction with an evangelical, right?

GT  02:37. Yes.

Steve  02:38 And so, talk a little bit about your past interactions with evangelicals. And then part of the reason I want to bring that up is because I remember before I even met you and start talking to you, I was talking to Christopher Thomas, because his book was the very first book that I reviewed on my channel. And it was so cool, because I'm freaking talking to this guy with all these books behind him. They're all Mormon. He's a doctor and oh, man, and he was so cool, and a friendly person and really has been a mentor to me in many ways.

GT  03:12. Chris is amazing.

Steve  03:13. He really is. He's awesome. But he had reminded me of the Lindsey Hansen Park episode. "Oh, I can't stand those Evangelicals. They drive me crazy." And oh, I forgot all about that. And that was true. I had forgotten about that. But I did remember as soon as he said that, "That's right,

Who was the 1st woman ordained in the Community of Christ? I was surprised to find out that Paul Debarthe's wife, Rina, was the first woman ordained following the 1984 revelation. Paul shares photos and stories about his amazing wife who passed away earlier this year, and the prejudice she faced, not only for her gender, but also the color of her skin. Check out our conversation....

https://youtu.be/sEiqIZQwyzY

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1st Woman Ordained in Community of Christ

Paul  00:44  Let me go back to my wife's story, because it ties in here.

GT  00:46  Okay.

Paul  00:51  I will get choked up here a bit, too. But she came to the United States under the direction to love the people of Zion. And she did the best she could with that. And she was discriminated against because she was a person of color. She had to drink from the colored people's fountain.

GT  01:07  Oh, really?

Paul  01:07  She had to go to the colored people's bathroom.

GT  01:11  Because she was Tahitian?

Paul  01:12  Because she was dark skinned, yes. And her family were dark-skinned people. She was one of the lighter skinned people of her family. But nonetheless, they were dark-skinned people. When I, in 1969, approached three different ministers to ask for counseling regarding marriage, all three of the church appointees said, "Don't get married. Cross cultural marriages never work." And we found one that said, "Yes, I'll marry you." And he did. That was Reid Holmes and our marriage only lasted 52 and a half years.

GT  01:53  Wow!

Paul  01:54  And it has been a marvelous blessing to have five decades with an angel. She had to face that criticism of having the wrong-colored skin. Some people have told her even that there's no room in Zion for people of color. That, to me, had to be dreadfully painful. Our kids all have Tahitian names, and she was chastised for not giving them names like Bill and Sue. But who wants to get a bill and who wants to be sued? Our kids all have names that are meaningful, and they're Tahitian names. Hinano Joi is a joy flower. HaiAta is Love Light. Tehani is a beloved lady, and Haumana.  These four beautiful girls, and we were warned that our kids would be spotted. And Haumana Alexandra, a person who loves God and helps people, is our pastor.  Our son, Tehau Jean- Paul, a gentleman of peace. And they all live up to their names. They're beautiful people. And yet we were discouraged from marriage, because, well what would people think of your children? People are proud of our kids and so are we. Until we can learn to embrace those people that criticize us, we don't belong in Zion, I believe. And Rina profoundly taught that message. And she embraced those people who criticized her. We had some that came to her funeral, who had voted against her being ordained and it took 30 years plus for her to love them from a distance before they would come around to even pay respects at her funeral.

Paul  03:44  But if you love people, it's just amazing what can happen, the healings happen. And I saw that with her. She came out of a family of healers and navigators. But the fact that people respond so favorably to being loved, even if they are discriminating and harsh and angry, to be able to feel the impact of someone who's willing to love you, anyway, is such a profound thing. I believe that's what the cause of Zion is all about. And that's something we need to learn to embrace. Things like the battles at Mormon War, the massacres, otherwise, until we can learn to repent, to be sorry, to pay the reparations, to make it so that we can be treated equitably--there's no reason why all people should not be seen as children of God. That makes us equals, brothers and sisters, all the same family. Rina did such a beautiful job of illustrating that.