Dr Matthew Bowman is the chair of Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University. He's probably best known for his writings about Mormon Bigfoot. We'll discuss that, as well as his latest book on UFO's. How does that related to spirituality? Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/SMOWLjLfN4M

 

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Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Meet Matt Bowman

Interview

GT  00:04  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have one of the premier Mormon historians on the show. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are?

Matthew  00:57  That is generous of you, Rick. I'm Matthew Bowman. I'm the Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon studies at Claremont Graduate University. I'm an associate professor of history and religion there.

GT  01:10  It's been way too long that we haven't had Matt Bowman on. You just-- let's see, can we say retired? Is that the right word, as the chair of the Mormon History Association?

Matthew  01:21  Well, I wouldn't say retired, I'd say rotated out. I served as president of the Mormon History Association until the last meeting in Rochester, New York, and then a new president took over at that meeting.

GT  01:34  That was kind of funny, because there was some turmoil before you got in there. You got thrown to the wolves over there.

Matthew  01:39  There was, yeah. We had a couple of presidents, prior to myself, who were supposed to be the president for that meeting. Presidents serve for a year until the annual meeting that they preside over. And then at the end of that annual meeting, they hand it off to the next president. The two presidents who--well, there was one president who was elected to serve. He had to step down for family reasons. And the next, the same issue. He ran into some health problems. And so I did take over (kind of) at the very last moment. But honestly, it was easier than you might think, because those two presidents did a lot of the groundwork. This Rochester conference was supposed to happen in 2020. It was the 200th anniversary of the First Vision. And so, the executive directors, well, Christine Blythe, who served as the executive director for me, but Barbara Jones Brown, as well, who was the executive director who planned that initial 2020 conference, they had done so much of the groundwork that it was actually not terribly hard.

GT  02:42  Thank you, COVID. That was terrible. I got lucky, because the John Whitmer Historical Association was the fall before 2020, [in] 2019, and so we got to go. And the idea was MHA was going to follow right up and then COVID hit. It took, what, four years to come back?

Matthew  03:03  Yeah, I guess, three. It was it was jerry-rigged for a little while there. But I'm glad to say, I think MHA came through the whole thing really well. The Rochester conference had far more registration than we thought it would. It was, maybe people were just hungry to come back. And I'm glad they did.

GT  03:22  It was kind of nice to have a four-year break, after all, but it was fun. I don't know. Like you, I'm a history nerd. So it was a blast.

Matthew  03:33  MHA is always great. It's a good time.

GT  03:35  Can you tell us a little bit about next year? Who's going to be the president and where is it?

Matthew  03:39  The person who took over for me is David Howlett. He is a Ph.D. in religious studies, author of a really, really great book on the history of the Kirtland Temple and the uses of the Kirtland Temple.[1] Appropriately, he's going to be presiding over a conference in Kirtland, Ohio.

GT  03:59  Yeah, yeah. Cleveland/Kirtland.

Matthew  04:03  The real hope for it is that we could find a venue close enough to Kirtland proper and to the temple, that there can be some conference events there. That's proving a bit difficult, but I do think MHA will be at Kirtland proper for at least part of the conference.

When Matthew Gill was called as prophet of the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ, he claims that Joseph Smith returned to ordain him prophet.

https://youtu.be/kJisXk_-50w

Ordained by Joseph Smith

Introduction

When Matthew Gill was called as prophet of the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ, he claims that Joseph Smith returned to ordain him prophet. Check out our conversation….

Interview

GT  1:52:24  Did you receive an angelic ordination to be prophet?

Matthew  1:52:30  Yes, that took place in 2006.

GT  1:52:33  And that was by Raphael?

Matthew  1:52:35  Yes. That was on the 12th of July 2006.

GT  1:52:45  Did your dad have that too?

Matthew  1:52:48  He had a similar experience.

GT  1:52:50  Okay.

Matthew  1:52:51  But in that experience I had, I met Christ, Joseph Smith, and Jeraneck, although I didn't realize at the time who he was. Then, obviously...

GT  1:53:14  This was a physical, not just a vision. But they appeared psychically, and laid hands on your head, I assume.

Matthew  1:53:21  Right.

GT  1:53:22  Okay.

Matthew  1:53:23  Not Christ. Christ didn't lay his hands on my head. He didn't touch me at all. Joseph did, and Jeraneck.

GT  1:53:30  So, you were ordained by Joseph?

Matthew  1:53:32  Yes, under Joseph's hand. It's documented in our Doctrine & Covenants. So, yeah, it's all documented. It's all there. It's all in black and white. In that experience, I was taken with Raphael, and I saw Christ. He didn't lay hands on me. He just spoke to me. Then, I saw Joseph, who did lay hands on me. Once he'd finished, Jeraneck laid hands on me. Then, of course, we had the call to Stonehenge and the records.

GT  1:54:18  Okay, so this was before you received the Book of Jeraneck.

Matthew  1:54:22  Yeah.

GT  1:54:23  Okay.

Matthew  1:54:25  So, the series of events would be, really, I have an experience when I'm 12 in 1990, where I see Moroni and the gold plates. Then, I have another experience in October 2005, where I see Raphael for the first time. He tells me that something's going to happen. I need to prepare, that I'm going to be given this gift, what the gift is. Then, there are a series of visitations where I'm shown things and taught things. Then, the 12th of July 2006, I see Christ and Joseph Smith laid his hands on me. Then, after that, we are called to Stonehenge in August of that year, and then the plates come in September of 2006, the same year. Then, all the work's done and completed by December. So, 2006 wraps up really nicely throughout that period.

GT  1:55:20  Okay.

Matthew  1:55:22  Joseph Smith needed to be there.

GT  1:55:25  Have you had revelations since that you've added to your Doctrine & Covenants?

Matthew  1:55:29  We have, yes. I can't recall off the top of my head how many, but we have, in fact, we go up to--basically, we go up to about 200.

GT  1:55:50  Oh, wow, and you threw out a bunch of [sections.] How many were in the 1835 Doctrine & Covenants, roughly?[1]

Matthew  1:55:58  I don't know.

GT  1:55:58  One hundred?

Matthew  1:56:01  Yeah.

GT  1:56:02  So, you've probably received half of-- 100 and 100. Is that a good breakdown, roughly?

Matthew  1:56:07  Yeah, roughly. I mean, over a protracted period of time. I mean, it's not...

GT  1:56:12  Yeah. What do your revelations deal with?

Matthew  1:56:18  Organization of the Branch, how it should be organized.

GT  1:56:24  So, you're the prophet, your father is the first counselor?

Matthew  1:56:28  Yeah, the way it goes is prophet, first elder. The second elder would be my father. Third elder would be my son. Then, obviously, as other elders come in, and they're set apart, they would fulfill those other roles and duties. But we were told when to meet, what to do within the meetings, when to do the sacrament. We knew how to do the sacrament anyway, because we just use the sacrament prayers in the Book of Mormon. There are other things in there.

Following the Mormon expulsion from Missouri, someone made an attempt on Missouri Gov Boggs’ life.  Most people think it was Porter Rockwell. What does historian Steve LeSueur have to say about the matter?

https://youtu.be/TxRY-cQ0vWc

Gov Boggs Assassination Attempt

Interview

GT:  Oh, except for I guess we forgot about the assassination of Governor Boggs. Actually, I wanted to get your opinions of Governor Boggs' handling. I know you said in your book, by the end of his term, nobody liked him. He wasn't a very good governor. Was he a pretty terrible governor? Would a different person have handled that better?

Steve  2:36:02  I'd say a different person probably couldn't have handled it worse. So, yes, I would say that.  In the book, I tried to let him speak for himself and explain, "Well, this is why I did this or that." But, for the most part, as it turned out, he was prepared to send out troops early on, when he thought the Mormons were the cause of trouble. But it turned out that Atchison and his troops were able to solve things. So, Boggs didn't come out. He didn't need to. But, then later, as things started breaking down, Boggs continually heard reports from his generals, saying, "You need to come out here."

Steve  2:36:51  The Mormons are not at fault. But the Mormons are in a desperate situation. They're desperate people, and we could have a big war here, a big conflict. So, they asked him to come out. He didn't come out. You could say, "Well, that it isn't necessarily the governor's job to call out troops and lead them out all the way out west, like that." But that's what he was asked to do.

Steve  2:37:23  Then likewise, when DeWitt was besieged, and the Mormons asked for help yet again, and he didn't help them. Essentially, he left it up to local authorities, which, in essence, was no help. By that point, he knew it was no help. He defended himself by saying that the local authorities had solved it before. They could do it again. Also, I think he had become sort of a--a laughingstock is too strong, but he was criticized and ridiculed when he had first intended to come out. This was a month earlier, with troops. He called out troops, and they were disorganized, and, a lot of money was spent. Then, he just said, "Well, it looks like they solved the problem out there. We don't have to do it." So, he's kind of laughed at for wasting money. Perhaps he didn't want to look like that again. But, as it turned out, he eventually had to call out troops, and he was not hesitant to call out troops when they were [used] against the Mormons.

GT  2:38:41  So, would you say he was the worst governor of Missouri?

Steve  2:38:49  Well, I don't know my Missouri history.

GT  2:38:52  There might have been one worse?

Steve  2:38:54  I don't want to shortchange anybody. By the time he [Boggs] left office, he was not popular. No. As it turned out, he later went to California, and he became an alcalde. I think [al-cal-day] is how you pronounce it. [He was] some type of county leader or something like that. So, it's interesting how people like that [moved on.] He still became a leader by moving someplace else, though not governor. Interestingly enough, Peter Burnett, who was a member of General Doniphan's brigade, he went out to California, and he became the first Governor of the State of California.

GT  2:38:55  Okay.

Steve  2:38:55  Among other things, he was one of the Mormons’ lawyers after the Richmond hearing. So, he was at the grand jury hearing in Gallatin when the Mormons were there.

GT  2:39:54  Okay. Do you have any thoughts on the assassination attempt on Governor Boggs?

Steve  2:40:01  Just based on my knowledge, it's not something I've looked into recently. So, if there's been recent evidence, I don't know of it. But the evidence seems to be that on the one hand, when you say the attempt, Porter Rockwell, a Mormon was accused of trying to assassinate Boggs, and Boggs was shot.

It was tough for Mormons growing up in the wild, wild west! Butch Cassidy & the Wild Bunch played a role in the murder of Frank LeSueur & Gus Gibbons. Historian Stephen LeSueur details more about the outlaws of Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/wwLAvpVCHYM

 

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Butch Cassidy & Other Outlaws

It was tough for Mormons growing up in the wild, wild west! Butch Cassidy & the Wild Bunch played a role in the murder of Frank LeSueur & Gus Gibbons. Historian Stephen LeSueur details more about the outlaws of Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. Check out our conversation...

Interview

GT  00:41  So Frank LeSueur, was he Mormon when he came out here to Arizona? Was he from Mormon pioneer heritage?

Steve  00:49  Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'll back up and talk about a little bit about the family. The Gibbons family were--Bill Gibbons was Gus' father. And Bill was one of many sons of Andrew Smith Gibbons, who was an early explorer and missionary to the Native Americans. Bill Gibbons, Gus' father, was also a missionary, as well. But they moved around a lot and then [they were] called in 1880, to settle in St. John's.

GT  01:32  So, called by Brigham Young, probably?

Steve  01:33  Well, no, because he was dead by that point.

GT  01:35  Okay.

Steve  01:36  And I don't know, specifically, whether it was the prophet, himself, or other Mormon leaders. Anyway, they were called to settle there. And Gus was born in 1874. So, he was just five or six years old when...

GT  01:50  Gus Gibbons?

Steve  01:50  Yeah, Gus Gibbons.

Steve  01:53  And so Gus, he was just a young boy. But this was a stalwart Mormon family, and in fact, his father, Bill Gibbons, was called to be a counselor in the bishopric that was newly formed in 1880. The bishop was David K. Udall of the Udall family. If you're familiar with Stewart Udall, he was Secretary of Interior, and Mo Udall, who was the representative from Arizona for many years, they are grandsons of David Udall, who was the first bishop there, and Bill Gibbons was...

GT  02:31  [Stewart & Mo Udall were] good Democrats, I'll add.

Steve  02:32  Yeah, if there is such a thing as a good Democrat. {both chuckling}

Steve  02:36  And so, Bill Gibbons was a stalwart in both the Church and his community. And, then the LeSueur family, who came from Idaho. There were two LeSueur brothers and two sisters living in Idaho. And they had another sister who was living in Mesa, and she said, "Oh, why don't you come down here?" This was 1878 or ‘79 or so. "We have a good community here." So, they came down to Mesa, the four families. They were all married, and some of them had kids. They came to Mesa. By the time they got there, this sister had died, though she still had a family. So, they stayed in Mesa for about a year. It was too hot for them. So, they decided to move, and they were moving east. And it's a little uncertain exactly where they were heading. But they, at some point, they got called to settle in St. John's, and so they were there in early 1880, as well.

So, four LeSueur families, including John Taylor LeSueur and his wife, Geneva. John Taylor [LeSueur] was known as JT. JT and his wife, Geneva, they settled in St. John's. Their first home was a home, a dirt home [that] they dug out of the side of the hill. It was two rooms [that] they shared with two families. Anyway, Frank LeSueur was born in 1880, shortly after they arrived. So, these two men who are in the book, Gus Gibbons, he was six when the Mormons first settled there, and Frank was just born at that time.

GT  04:17  Okay.

Steve  04:18  And so that was 20 years--they're living there in St. John's, and it was kind of a desolate, out-of-the way place then and it was still kind of that same place in the year 1900.

Mormons lived in the wild, wild west. Author Steve LeSueur has a tale of murder, involving his great uncle Frank LeSueur. How was Frank killed? Check out our conversation.....

https://youtu.be/ZkqGwN0kIJo

 

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Mormons in the Wild West

Mormons lived in the wild, wild west. Author Steve LeSueur has a tale of murder, involving his great uncle Frank LeSueur. How was Frank killed? Check out our conversation.....

Interview

GT  00:52   Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have a returning visitor back on the show. Tell us who you are.

Steve  00:59  I'm Steve LeSueur and I am the author of a new book, Life and Death on the Mormon Frontier: The murders of Frank LeSueur and Gus Gibbons by the Wild Bunch.[1]

GT  01:09  All right.

Steve  01:11  Published by Greg Kofford Books.

GT  01:13  Exactly. So Frank LeSueur, Steve LeSueur, there's got to be a relationship somehow.

Steve  01:19  Yes. Frank LeSueur is my great uncle, my father's uncle, my grandfather, Karl LeSueur's older brother.

GT  01:29  Okay.

Steve  01:29  In our family, the LeSueur family, we've always known that my father's uncle Frank LeSueur, had been killed by outlaws. That was no surprise to us. But we knew few details. And my grandfather, Karl, Frank's younger brother, was only five when Frank was killed. And so, he didn't know too much, himself, and didn't tell us much at all. So, to a large degree, as far as we all knew, the killers got away. And there was, as far as we knew, little attempt to capture them. And it was just some minor episode in western history. And so that’s been the story, since 1900. However, in recent years, historians of outlaws, historians and biographers who are interested in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and other outlaws...

GT  02:35  Who has Mormon ties as well.

Steve  02:36  Yeah, Butch has Mormon ties, we can get to that. Anyway, these historians started pointing fingers at Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch gang as the likely culprits. And so, when I read that, that got me interested in the story. But, also, [as I was reading about it] from my perspective, reading the journals and diaries and reminiscences that the various Latter-day Saints in the community there, that brought me in. It was the notoriety, of course, of Butch Cassidy and the Wild Bunch that drew me in. But what I found was, there was a story here to tell. Part of the story is that when historians write about outlaws, whether it's Butch Cassidy or Billy the Kid, or Jesse James or other outlaws, they're interested in the outlaws, their daring heists, and their exciting getaways and that kind of thing. And the victims, the people who get killed, they're kind of bit players or extras in a movie that really aren't important.

GT  03:47  Crewman number six, right?  [Reference to Star Trek extras who often die in an episode.]

Steve  03:49  Yes, exactly. {both laughing} And so, in looking at this from the victim's point of view, I found I had a pretty good story to tell of the ramifications of this [double murder]. And there were lots of insights, then, into the outlaws themselves, as well as this community.

GT  04:08  Wow. So not too many people have an ancestor killed by a famous outlaw!

Steve  04:13  Yes. Part of what was interesting to me, and really drew me in, was that this event took place in the year 1900.

GT  04:28  Okay.

Steve  04:29  And so, even though 1900 sounds somewhat modern, not like the Wild West, but it was [the Wild West.] The town of St. John's, Arizona, [was located] on the eastern part of Arizona. It was a dusty cattle and sheep town, and there was no electricity. There was no running water in this town. And, of course, it was an era [where] cars and airplanes were unimagined.

Just set the stage. On March 27, year 1900,

As we conclude the month of September, I wanted to conclude with the full interview of Dr. Michael Quinn. He passed away unexpectedly April 21, 2021. To commemorate the September Six, I'm pulling an interview from the archives with Dr Michael Quinn. Of course he was also excommunicated in 1993. This interview comes from Nov 2017 where Dr Quinn had just released his book "Wealth & Corporate Power" by Signature Books. We also discuss his dealings with Mark Hofmann, LDS Succession, Women & Priesthood, and his role in the September Six. You won't want to miss this conversation....

https://youtu.be/gpi76Ri8n4c

Michael Quinn Discusses Deseret Hemp Company

Introduction

I’m really excited to have Michael Quinn on the show.  In this first episode, we will get more acquainted with him.  We will also talk about the Deseret Hemp Company.  Yes, I said Hemp!  On the ballot this fall is a proposal to legalize medical marijuana here in Utah.  Michael Quinn will talk about a church-owned company that grew hemp right here in Utah!  Will they get back in the business?  Check out our conversation!

The Interview

GT:            00:00:33          Welcome to Gospel Tangents podcast. I'm really excited. I've got a real rare treat: Mike Quinn, historian Mike Quinn here in Salt Lake City. So, could you introduce yourself to the audience? Not everybody knows about Mormon history and might not know who you are. Can you give us a little bit about your background?

Michael:  00:00:52          I was born in California and while I was there, we were always told it was the mission field. I became interested in Mormon history as a hobby when I was 16. And then, when I was in the military and after I graduated from BYU in English literature, I had time to reconsider what I wanted to do as a graduate student while I was in the army for three years and I decided to switch to history because my hobby had become too consuming. So, when I came out of the military, I went to the University of Utah to get a master's degree in history. And then I went from there to Yale. But before that I served as a research and writing assistant to Leonard Arrington while he was the Church Historian. After I got my Ph.D. in history from Yale, three months later, I was hired by the BYU campus to join it's a Department of History and I remained there for 12 years and then have been freelance historian or the term is independent scholar in the field, aside from occasional appointments. I had a two-year appointment at the University of Southern California. And then I had a one-year appointment at Yale University and that was my last academic appointment more than a dozen years ago.

GT:            00:02:24          Oh wow, that's cool. So, for those who aren't familiar with your background, I know in the 1980s you wrote a chapter, I believe it was in Maxine Hanks’ book.[1] Is that right?

 

Michael:  00:02:39          Yes, it was actually 1992 that it came out. It was called "Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843." And that caused a certain amount of controversy.

GT:            00:02:53          Yeah. Could you, could you tell us a little bit more about that?

Michael:  00:02:56          Maxine was excommunicated. I was excommunicated, and she was specifically told that she was excommunicated because of her book and I was told--I was given a list of three items showing my apostasy, a list provided by the stake president and the first item on the list was that essay.

GT:            00:03:20          Okay. So you're one of the, I guess infamous September Six,[2] right?

Michael:  00:03:26          That's correct.

GT:            00:03:29          So,  the one thing that I think would strike most people is a little bit odd, I know I listened to your Radio West interview[3] earlier this week and you mentioned that you're still a believing Mormon. So, some people might think, well, if you're excommunicated,

Here is one from the archives. We released this episode with Jonathan Neville back on April 8, 2022. Jonathan Neville is a big-tent proponent when it comes to Book of Mormon beliefs.  Part of that likely stems from Heartland being shut out of groups like Book of Mormon Central. But Jonathan is also wants to keep the tent open for people who believe in a non-historical Book of Mormon.

https://youtu.be/yfbOflp3OD4

Non-Historical Book of Mormon?

Jonathan: But it all comes back to this Mesoamerican thing, because I think once the scholars convince people that Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were wrong about the Hill Cumorah, that was like a chink in the armor. They could be wrong about anything else. They said, "If they were wrong about something they said was a fact, then they could be wrong about anything else." So, they can be wrong about the translation. I don't know if you know, Skousen recently published a thing in The Interpreter about how now he's saying that Oliver Cowdery deliberately misled everybody about the translation.

GT 2:56:48 Royal Skousen.

Jonathan 2:56:48 Royal Skousen. And I couldn't disagree more, but I understand why he says that because the Mesoamerican thing opened the door to questioning everything Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery taught, and you end up with, what's left? Everybody just kind of says, "Well, as long as you believe in Christ, that's all the matters." But, come on. I mean, when it gets down to it, the only evidence that we have of the restoration of the priesthood is from Oliver Cowdery. Joseph Smith talked about it, but he didn't talk about the event. Yet, they're saying Oliver Cowdery was wrong about the Hill Cumorah? So, what I advocate is not anybody agree with anything that I say. I advocate, let's get all the facts out, and then let's look at the different interpretations of the facts. You go all the way from Dan Vogel and Tom Murphy, through Jack Welch, John Sorenson and Dan Peterson. Then, over here we have Rod Meldrum, and Wayne May on the geography issue, or me on the translation or whatever. Let's just put all of them out and let's get rid of this citation cartel that censors things they don't like. The Interpreter, to me, is an appalling journal. It shouldn't even be considered an academic journal.

GT 2:57:20 Yet, you read it.

Jonathan 2:58:06 Well, I have a blog called The Interpreter Peer Reviewed, where once in a while someone will send me an article, "You've got to deal with this." I read it, okay. Then, what I would do is a peer review. I understand it's more of a peer approval process that it goes through with those guys, because everybody on their peer review process already drinks the Kool Aid. I mean, they don't consider an outside perspective, and I know, because I've talked with them. I know how they are, and you can read it in their journals. They get upset that I even talk about it. Dan Peterson freaks out. In Dan Peterson's own blog that he does on his Patheos, whatever, he's referred to me several times and wants everybody read this critical web page. There's a page that's critical of me all the time. At first, I thought, "Well, I should respond to that." But then I read it. It's so ludicrous. I feel like if people can't discern fact from sophistry, then that's on them. I'm not going to spend all my time tamping down all the sophistry going around.

Jonathan 2:59:12 I just feel like people need to present the facts. If The Interpreter--the name Interpreter kind of tells it all, because they feel like they are the credentialed class. They are the ones that have been hired by the prophets to guide the rest of us, that kind of stuff which they’ve said. And the name Interpreter, alone, is a non-starter, because they're trying to interpret the scriptures for us. I think the scriptures are given to ordinary people that we can understand and interpret for ourselves. We don't need some scholars interpreting it for us.

Here is one from the archives. We released this episode with Jonathan Neville back on April 8, 2022. Jonathan Neville is a big-tent proponent when it comes to Book of Mormon beliefs.  Part of that likely stems from Heartland being shut out of groups like Book of Mormon Central. But Jonathan is also wants to keep the tent open for people who believe in a non-historical Book of Mormon.

https://youtu.be/yfbOflp3OD4

Non-Historical Book of Mormon?

Jonathan: But it all comes back to this Mesoamerican thing, because I think once the scholars convince people that Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were wrong about the Hill Cumorah, that was like a chink in the armor. They could be wrong about anything else. They said, "If they were wrong about something they said was a fact, then they could be wrong about anything else." So, they can be wrong about the translation. I don't know if you know, Skousen recently published a thing in The Interpreter about how now he's saying that Oliver Cowdery deliberately misled everybody about the translation.

GT 2:56:48 Royal Skousen.

Jonathan 2:56:48 Royal Skousen. And I couldn't disagree more, but I understand why he says that because the Mesoamerican thing opened the door to questioning everything Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery taught, and you end up with, what's left? Everybody just kind of says, "Well, as long as you believe in Christ, that's all the matters." But, come on. I mean, when it gets down to it, the only evidence that we have of the restoration of the priesthood is from Oliver Cowdery. Joseph Smith talked about it, but he didn't talk about the event. Yet, they're saying Oliver Cowdery was wrong about the Hill Cumorah? So, what I advocate is not anybody agree with anything that I say. I advocate, let's get all the facts out, and then let's look at the different interpretations of the facts. You go all the way from Dan Vogel and Tom Murphy, through Jack Welch, John Sorenson and Dan Peterson. Then, over here we have Rod Meldrum, and Wayne May on the geography issue, or me on the translation or whatever. Let's just put all of them out and let's get rid of this citation cartel that censors things they don't like. The Interpreter, to me, is an appalling journal. It shouldn't even be considered an academic journal.

GT 2:57:20 Yet, you read it.

Jonathan 2:58:06 Well, I have a blog called The Interpreter Peer Reviewed, where once in a while someone will send me an article, "You've got to deal with this." I read it, okay. Then, what I would do is a peer review. I understand it's more of a peer approval process that it goes through with those guys, because everybody on their peer review process already drinks the Kool Aid. I mean, they don't consider an outside perspective, and I know, because I've talked with them. I know how they are, and you can read it in their journals. They get upset that I even talk about it. Dan Peterson freaks out. In Dan Peterson's own blog that he does on his Patheos, whatever, he's referred to me several times and wants everybody read this critical web page. There's a page that's critical of me all the time. At first, I thought, "Well, I should respond to that." But then I read it. It's so ludicrous. I feel like if people can't discern fact from sophistry, then that's on them. I'm not going to spend all my time tamping down all the sophistry going around.

Jonathan 2:59:12 I just feel like people need to present the facts. If The Interpreter--the name Interpreter kind of tells it all, because they feel like they are the credentialed class. They are the ones that have been hired by the prophets to guide the rest of us, that kind of stuff which they’ve said. And the name Interpreter, alone, is a non-starter,

Lynne Whitesides is a convert to the LDS Church and has a different perspective on things than a lifelong member. We'll talk about her perspective on the Sept Six. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/oef3Zc0OLj4

 

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Gospel Tangents

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Growing up Outside the Church

Interview

GT  00:25  So let's, go back and talk about you growing up. So, you grew up Italian Catholic or?

Lynne  00:30  No, actually, my grandmother's from Italy. My grandfather was from Germany. And my mom grew up with basically immigrants. My grandmother, I think, was either pregnant, or she was born here. But she spoke only Italian until she was in eighth grade. So I grew up with those people. They were my grandparents, I hung out with them. So. My grandmother made really just one, what's the word, concession to my grandfather. She became a Lutheran and let go of Catholicism. So, I was raised Lutheran, actually. And it's a long story, but my parents moved a lot when I was kid. I moved in 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade. And at some point, I didn't want to do that anymore. And I started investigating the Mormon Church. And I thought that there was something about it that felt stable, to me, I think, at 17. And they were totally against me becoming Mormon, completely, because they just thought it was the weirdest church. And so, I started investigating, and I've got to also say the missionaries were very cute, and I was 17. {Rick laughing} So I was in Florida, and then they moved back up to Pennsylvania. I went from Pennsylvania to Florida a bunch of times. So, they moved back to Pennsylvania, and that's where I became a Mormon. I was baptized in New Jersey. And then my parents went to my baptism, and two months later, they became Mormon.

GT  01:54  Oh, wow.

Lynne  01:55  And then all of my Italian family became Mormon.

GT  01:58  No way!

Lynne  01:58  Yeah, I don't know. There's like [about] 30 of them that [joined:] my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my brother.

GT  02:03  Is that because of you?

Lynne  02:05  I wasn't. It was my parents [who] were going around doing it all. I was at BYU by this point.

GT  02:10  Okay.

Lynne  02:10  So everybody just became Mormon.

GT  02:14  Wow.

Lynne  02:15  Like, maybe 20, something like that, became Mormon. That changed everything, too. Because by this time I was at BYU. At BYU, I was becoming a little clearer, because the Church in Pennsylvania is very different.

GT  02:30  Very different.

Lynne  02:31  Yeah. And then I went to BYU.

GT  02:31  Okay. {chuckling}

Lynne  02:31  Than the Church in Provo, Utah. And I remember thinking, "Oh, man, this is--now all these people are joining. What am I going to do?" Like, this is not the way they said, they didn't-- when I joined, they didn't talk about racism. They didn't talk about misogyny. They didn't talk about--they didn't talk about much, really. They just like, "Come in. It's this lovely family thing." So, when you're 17, you're not investigating too much because the missionaries are cute. So that's how I got into the Church. So, I went to BYU.

GT  02:42  So you went to BYU. You were kind of a fish out of water at BYU?

Lynne  03:06  Totally a fish out of water.

GT  03:08  Okay.

Lynne  03:08  My second year at BYU, I got called in and they said, "We think another university might be better for you." I think it may have been because I was hitchhiking to church, and I was wearing--it just wasn't a match. It just wasn't a match. And I realized it wasn't. So that's what happened.

GT  03:25  You were hitchhiking. Don't you just go to your classes to go to church?

Lynne  03:29  No, actually, because the wards were all over the place back in '70's. I mean, they were all over Provo. But, anyway, the whole thing is they said [that] we think another university would...

Lynne Whitesides was the first person punished in the September Six. She shares her story of why she wasn't excommunicated, who was involved, and where she is on her spiritual journey now. Check out our conversation...

https://youtu.be/kk4ldrx61TI

 

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

transcript to follow

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

All Rights Reserved

Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission